From kcawte at ntlworld.com Mon Dec 1 04:19:39 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 20:19:39 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Titled characters (WAS Voldemort's "lordship") References: Message-ID: <00be01c3b7c2$5ba19380$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 86183 > Geoff: > The point is that the title Baroness occurs in the news a good deal > more than Baron. There are a few Baronesses kicking around in the > present Government by way of example. Perhaps Barons prefer to be > Lords to remove the stigma of being a "robber Baron". Perhaps the > Bloody Baron doesn't care.. :-) > K The title Baron isn't used much nowadays as you say (doesn't mean there aren't any). When members of the Commons are elevated to the Lords the men are usually referred to as Lord whereas the women tend to be Baroness - possibly partly because the title Lady tends to make people think that she is the wife of a Lord or a Sir, why Baroness doesn't conjure up the idea of her being the wife of a Baron I have no idea. But the general assumption amongst most people would I think be that if they met a Lady she was the wife of someone important rather than having earned the title in her own right. Baron in this country wasn't even that commonly occurring in the historical period, let me rephrase that, you don't come across Barons very often as the title by which people are identified, whether or not that is because they are called Lord whatever, Baron whatever and therefore the Baron bit tends to get dropped I don't know. However I think if the Bloody Baron came from somewhere outside of the UK or possibly Ireland someone would have remarked on it - possibly Sir Nick, since I doubt Sir Nick is particularly keen on foreigners, especially if they came from somewhere we had a history of fighting. If he was 'German' or 'Austrian' then he would predate what we would mean by those labels and probably be part of the Holy Roman Empire - either as an inhabitant of one of the Elector States or an Austro-Hungarian and I just don't see that somehow. Is his appearance described in detail anywhere (other than the silvery blood)? Particularly his clothing which might let us date him or locate him. And as for him having attended Durmstrang I doubt that too. I assumed that the house ghosts all attended the school as members of that house (same assumption I make for the House Heads and for similar reasons). And on a related note is there anything that makes us assume that the blood on the Bloody Baron isn't his? I've seen several speculations on its origin but he could have been murdered leaving him covered in blood (and providing a reason why he would wish to remain as a ghost) K *who would find it amusing if the Slytherin ghost was the victim of murder most foul while Sir NHN turned out to be guilty of treason* From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Dec 1 00:34:24 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 00:34:24 -0000 Subject: time travel revisited In-Reply-To: <20031129052453.22026.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86206 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Laura Clapham wrote: > > ...edited... > > ... when HH go back in time three hours why do they end up in a slightly different place to where they were three hours ago? If they were really going back three hours wouldn't they appear virtually on top of their past selves? bboy_mn: Keep in mind that *Time* did not go backwards, two very specific people went back in time. There are several Star Trek episodes as well as movies like 'Groundhog Day' where time and the universe turn back 24 and that day is played over again. In that case, where it is time that is reversed, everything in the universe goes back to the exact spot it was in 24 ago. In PoA, time marches ever forward never changing direction. However, at a specific point in time, two people (Harry & Hermione) arrive from the future and join the one timeline as it marches forward. I don't buy into the belief that things happened twice once without and once with the second Harry and Hermione. I believe it only happened once, and at one point in time at about 9pm, the second time traveling Harry and Hermione joined the events. So, the time traveling Harry and Hermione arrive in close proximity to where they need to be in order to do what they need to do. The magic spell that guides the time travel is somewhat controlled by the wizard's intend; just as most magic is. Hermione knew where they had to be to start this event, and her intent took them to the approximate location of their original selves so that they could follow the events as they unfolded. bboy_mn > princess laura continues: > >And what would happen if they arrived in a room where there were other people? Would this appear to be apparating? This in my mind also ties in to Hagrid's disappearance at the train station in PS - as I assume Hagrid never learnt enough magic to apparate, could he have used a time turner to disappear? > > > princesslaura bboy_mn: I think you are right, if a couple of people suddenly appeared out of nowhere, that would be disturbing to a muggle, but the average wizard wouldn't give it a second glance since people are suddenly appearing out of nowhere all the time. Time travel could explain Hagrid's sudden disappearance at the train station, but we must ask ourselves, is it likely? Why at that time and place would Hagrid have any need for time travel, especially since this is something that is strictly controlled by the Ministry. Appration or Portkey make far more sense and in my view are far more likely than time travel. As far as Hagrid's magical abilities, let's remember that he has had 50 years of experience. True, most of that experience was on the sly, but he has also had 50 years of access to some of the most talented and power wizards in the wizard world, the Hogwarts teacher, and he has had a somewhat closed environment, the school grounds, where people conviniently look the other way, as well as aid Hargrid in performing magic. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Dec 1 00:43:59 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 00:43:59 -0000 Subject: time travel revisited - Added Note: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86207 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > ...edited... > > As far as Hagrid's magical abilities, let's remember that he has had > 50 years of experience. True, most of that experience was on the sly, > but he has also had 50 years of access to some of the most talented > and power wizards in the wizard world, the Hogwarts teacher, and he > has had a somewhat closed environment, the school grounds, where > people conviniently look the other way, as well as aid Hargrid in > performing magic. > > bboy_mn bboy_mn now adds: I forgot to point out that Hagrid's seeming ineptitude at magic is compounded by his using a broken wand that he can't actually get his hand around. The best that he can do is hold the unbrella that holds the broken wand. That certainly can help his magical abilities at all. I suspect with a little formal effort and a new wand, Hagrid would be a more than competent wizard. Just a thought. bboy_mn From Meliss9900 at aol.com Mon Dec 1 06:26:46 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 01:26:46 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] 'Ollivander' Anagrams Message-ID: <1c0.126c82b2.2cfc3926@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86208 In a message dated 11/28/2003 12:07:04 AM Central Standard Time, snapesmate at hotmail.com writes: > Anagrams for Ollivander > > "Lad nor evil." > "No rivalled." > "No viler lad." > "Liar 'n' loved." > "Veil old ran." > "Olden rival." > "Veil nor lad." > "Do ill raven." > "Alvine lord." > "Veil 'n' a lord." > "Veil Ronald." > "Veil Arnold." > "Veil Roland." > "Rev lion lad." > "Red lav lion." > "Old evil. A RN." > "A live, old RN." > "Vlei Ronald." > "Load veil RN." > > Snapesmate > And lets not forget these for "Ollivander's" we have either "Ronald Lives" or "Ronald's evil" ( hmm that last one even makes use of the apostrophe (') [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From punkieshazam at yahoo.com Mon Dec 1 07:12:07 2003 From: punkieshazam at yahoo.com (punkieshazam) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 07:12:07 -0000 Subject: Evans/Petunia/ Grandpa Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86209 In July 2003, in post # 41073 I wrote: (snippage) > Anyway a little background about how I came to this theory I have > about Harry's relationship to LV. I bought a paperback edition of SS > for my granddaughter for Christmas 3-4 years ago, and being the kind > of mother and now grandmother who has to read any book for > appropriateness before I read or give it to a child, I read it and > was hooked. (My name is Punkie and I'm an addict.) I went right out > and bought books one and two in hardcover for myself and consumed #2 > and later #3 with what Fritz Perls called the hanging on bite--just > bite on and suck it down. Then I would go back and read at leisure > for detail. With GoF, I just couldn't get past the first chapter for > a while. I read it at least three times because it was different from > the other books. I felt that there were a lot of clues for us there. > I finally finished it and reread all four two or three times trying > to figure out what it was about the chapter, The Riddle House, that > had caused me so much confusion/consternation. > > It was Voldemort's audacity at coming into someone else's house that > bothered me. Then I realized that in addition to being Slytherin's > heir on his mother's side, he was potentially Riddle's heir on his > father's side. I believe that young Tom Riddle claimed the Riddle > fortune and on leaving Hogwarts lived as a rich Muggle. He married > and had a family. I believe he changed his name and lived for a > while, using that assumed name in the Riddle house. He essentially > sold it to himself and under whatever name still owns it. > > The fortune made it possible, even natural, to travel on business. > The business was not only managing the Riddle assets, but learning > all the dark arts that he could. This was a deprived child who as a > man had his revenge on the Muggle world and the WW which didn't > appreciate him properly. > > My theory makes TR change his name to Evans and he and his > unsuspecting Muggle wife had two daughters, Lily and Petunia. It may > be that the real reason Lily and James took refuge in Goderics > Hollow was that they learned that Daddy Dearest wanted to take Harry > away to teach him to become a truly evil wizard. Maybe not. When Lily > tried to block his entrance to their house, he spoke very familiarly > to her. Something like, "Lily, you foolish girl. Stand aside." At any > rate I am convinced that Harry is related to Voldemort nee Tom Riddle > somehow. > > Normally I'm not a person with too much time on my hands, so I guess > that I'll just go back to lurking. Then in post #41099 Alora responded: >>Nope. Lily is muggle-born. On pg 233 CoS, TR says "Both half- >>bloods, orphans, raised by muggles". If Lily was Voldies daughter >>then she wouldn't be muggle born. And I responded: >In the Chamber, LV refers to Harry's Muggle mother. If Riddle, born >half Muggle and raised by Muggles, posed as a Muggle and married a >Muggle, then there you are--Lily and Petunia think that they are >Muggles. I know, I know this is really old stuff. But I am still defending my theory and had devoutly hoped that book 5 would prove me right or blow holes in the theory. Instead, we have only deepened mystery about Petunia. > Punkie > > Petunia is a squib! I am beginning to wonder if perhaps Petunia is a witch in denial. From snapesmate at hotmail.com Mon Dec 1 07:32:40 2003 From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 07:32:40 -0000 Subject: Evans/Petunia/ Grandpa Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86210 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "punkieshazam" wrote: > In July 2003, in post # 41073 I wrote: > > (snippage) > > > Anyway a little background about how I came to this theory I have > > about Harry's relationship to LV. I believe that young Tom Riddle claimed the Riddle > > fortune and on leaving Hogwarts lived as a rich Muggle. He married > > and had a family. I believe he changed his name and lived for a > > while, using that assumed name in the Riddle house. > > My theory makes TR change his name to Evans and he and his > > unsuspecting Muggle wife had two daughters, Lily and Petunia. > > Petunia is a squib! > I am beginning to wonder if perhaps Petunia is a witch in denial. Would she not have also received her letter from Hogwarts? Or, maybe that is one of the things her obvious jealousy of Lily stems from. Lily was accepted at Hogwarts and Petunia was not invited to the party. No one else from her family is left, so Vernon may have never known this. Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is not a NICE guy! From CareALotsClouds at aol.com Mon Dec 1 07:40:05 2003 From: CareALotsClouds at aol.com (CareALotsClouds at aol.com) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 02:40:05 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Crouch killing Harry Message-ID: <6f.3f1d25e4.2cfc4a55@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86211 In a message dated 30/11/03 19:39:37 GMT Standard Time, evankimjeff at yahoo.com writes: > Hi all: > > I am rereading GoF for the 3rd time now, and have just gotten past the 1st > challenge. Anyway, I think I have missed something here, I don't remember in > the first 2 readings Crouch planning to kill Harry. I always thought his > objective was to deliver Harry to Voldy. I scanned through and could not find > a page. Can someone help? > > Kim > Hey Kim, its after Harry escapes the cemetry and 'Moody' takes Harry into the school. Veristum (sp) chapter. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From snapesmate at hotmail.com Mon Dec 1 07:42:16 2003 From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 07:42:16 -0000 Subject: "Peter the rat"'s silver hand and Lupin's chocolate Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86212 It just occured to me, (yes I know a few years late but what the heck) Peter has that nifty new (GoF new anyway, LOL!) silver hand, right? Well, is it REAL silver? Or just silvery looking. If it IS real silver, will it be a danger to Remis Lupin (werewolve/silver weapon) at some point? There must be something significant about the fact that it is silver and if that fact has already been shown, I am drawing a total blank on it. Also I have read a post that mentioned Lupin handing out tainted chocolate. I do not recall canon that says the chocolate was "tainted". Am I drawing a blank on that as well? Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice guy! From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon Dec 1 07:47:01 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 07:47:01 -0000 Subject: Origins of Stoned!Harry (Was: Re: Harry's ideal ending & etc...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86213 Laura Ingalls Huntley wrote: > (for details, see the early posts of the Stoned!Harry > theory, which I spent about an hour looking for, but Yahoomort just > wouldn't cooperate, so good luck) Annemehr: You've brought up my favorite theory, so I can help you there. Caroline began it in message #38542, a great and detailed post. The name "Stoned!Harry" was made up later, so searching for that will only take you back so far; when the trail goes cold you just have to keep hitting "up thread" when you can and "previous" when you can't -- it took me a long time to trace it back to Caroline! As long as I have your attention, I'll just point you to my post #51832, which is a variation on the theory that I think is very likely (it has to do with Harry becoming S!H when V tried to AK him instead of at birth), though some of my conclusions would need to be rethought in light of OoP. Annemehr who loves to tell herself that the foreshadowings of Harry's death are just way over the top, whereas the foreshadowings of his living are *so* much more convincing... From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Mon Dec 1 08:12:45 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 08:12:45 -0000 Subject: Harry living through book 7 (was Harry's Ideal happy ending) In-Reply-To: <20031130134419.97178.qmail@web60002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86214 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, KT Waters wrote: > > >"Harry lived to nineteen before being killed by the Knight Bus > >in a freak accident.". :( I cringe just thinking about the > >possibility of that kind of an ending. > > > >Diana L. ******SPOILER ALERT for The Dark Materials Triology of books by Pullman!*********** > Jadeau replied: > Rowling wouldn't do that. She would either kill Harry at the direct ending or leave him alive. > > Personally, I don't think she will kill him at all. Okay, so Pettigrew may die, Snape may die, even Dumbledore, one of the Weasleys and a fan of Harry's (a creevey?) but put those deaths aside - with the many others that have been promised - (uncle Vernon maybe?) - Harry won't be killed. I seriously seriously doubt it. > > I mean, I have written books my self, whole novels, but if I get an idea about a character, who perhaps is the main part, and then decide he will die, I find it very hard to carry on writing. And if Rowling cried when Black died, she won't live with herself if she kills Harry Potter himself. She would be saying "evil has won" and that just won't happen. > > Also in an interview she said she would write more than seven books only if she felt the great desire too at the end of the last. So it was meant to be an septology (Um?) just like Pullman's The Dark Materials was meant to be a Trilogy. But Lyra didn't die in his book (she was the main character) both her parents died and she lost many people she loved - after that is it not too harsh to kill her too? > > So I think what Rowling intends to do is just end it, so we can imagine what Harry does after Voldemort's defeat. There will be a struggle, no doubt, the above named will perhaps all die with many others, but Harry, Ronald and Hermione will break thorugh the other side. It just has to be. (IMHO) > Diana again: In my heart I don't think JKR would really do that to Harry in an epilogue. She is a much better writer than she is frequently given credit for (avid HP fans like on this list aside, of course) and that kind of off-the-page death would be bad writing as far as the fate of Harry is concerned. However true these words may be I can still imagine it as a really horrible ending. I also hope to see Harry, Ron and Hermione live through and past the end of the series, intact and finally able to just be teenagers without constant threat of death hanging over any of them. As for Pullman's Dark Materials Triology, which I just recently read, I know Lyra lives, but she did lose someone she loved very much, even if not in the usual way of loss. I don't want ANY of my favorite characters to die, but I know some of them must - it is a war against evil after all. Ultimately, I can only hope that the author's love of the character of Harry is as strong as the many legions of fans who love Harry and that it will stay her hand in writing Harry's death at the end of the series. Diana L. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Dec 1 08:52:10 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 08:52:10 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans - evans, Evans, EVANS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86215 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > Pip!Squeak: > > > > Not clear to me. > > > > Firstly, there is no evidence apart from a coincidence of surnames > > that Mark Evans is related to Harry Potter. My local phonebook has > > an entire large page of Evans's. It's a very common surname. > > > > > > Geoff: > True - try a Welsh phone book.... > > However, as many of have said, JKR's coincidences can often be > suspect. Can I just refer you back to a longish post (message 85255) > in which I put togather a lot of the verious bits of evidence which > just /could/ support the theory. > > Geoff bboy_mn: Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this (OoP) the first book in which Lily's maiden name is mentioned? I believe someone made that statement higher up in this thread. And just by happenstance, the name Evans is used in reference to TWO seemingly unrelated people. It's hard to believe that JKR could use the same name in the critical book in which Lily's family name is revealed, to refer to two unrelated people. Really hard to believe. In the beginning of the book we get a casual in-passing reference to Mark Evans- "Another ten year old? I know you did Mark Evans two nights ago --" So, Mark Evans is intoduce (pg 13); now let's look at the introduction of Lily's family name 634 pages later - --- Quote - OotP - HB Am Ed, pg 647 - 648 --- "All right, Evans?" said James, ... "I will if you go out with me, Evans," said James ... "Ah, Evans, don't make me hex you," said James... "There you go," he said, as Snape struggle to his feet again, "you're luck Evans was here Snivelles--" "Apologise to Evans!" James roared at Snape... "Evans!" James shouted after her, "Hey, EVANS!" --- End Quotes --- SEVEN times in a page and a half, the last three with exclaimation points, and the very last one in ALL CAPS. It seems to me that JKR was trying pretty hard to drill that name into our minds; trying pretty hard, virtually screaming it at us, to make sure we didn't miss that name. That has to have some significants. Certainly, if there were none, she would have used a different surname for Mark. I can't believe she was so desperate for good names, that she had to recycle a simple name like Evans. Certainly Smith or Jones would have worked just as well. If could be a Red Herring, something to distract us, but distract us from what? That's usually how red herrings and false clues work, they draw your attention toward something that seems significant, while at the same time drawing your attention away from more important issues. This doesn't seem to be that case. The only other explaination is that JKR inserted a 'Got Ya'; something that serves no purpose at all with regard to the story, it's simply there to screw with the heads of the readers. That would seem to be a step out of character for the books. The only conclusion I can reach is that this name has some significants, and since Harry and Mark share a common ancestral name, the inference is that they share common ancestry. I've make it clear that is this is true, I believe it is distant ancestry. I will admit that in general, the Evans name in Britain is probably regarded like the name 'Smith' in the USA; it's about as generic as you can get. But that still doesn't explain why JKR would us the name twice in the book in which Lily's name is introduced. Certainly, as an author, she must know that would cause some confusion amoung the readers. As with the real world, JKR's fictional world is very big, but our window into her fictional world is very small, we see it through Harry's eyes. For the name Evans to pass twice in front of that small window without significants, seems very very unlikely. Again, I'm convinced there is significants to Mark Evans, but also admit, I can't quite pin that significants down. Just a thought. bboy_mn From rubykelly at webtv.net Mon Dec 1 09:43:08 2003 From: rubykelly at webtv.net (rubyxkelly) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 09:43:08 -0000 Subject: 'Ollivander' Anagrams In-Reply-To: <1c0.126c82b2.2cfc3926@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86216 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 11/28/2003 12:07:04 AM Central Standard Time, > snapesmate at h... writes: > > > > Anagrams for Ollivander > > > > "Lad nor evil." > > "No rivalled." > > "No viler lad." > > "Liar 'n' loved." > > "Veil old ran." > > "Olden rival." > > "Veil nor lad." > > "Do ill raven." > > "Alvine lord." > > "Veil 'n' a lord." > > "Veil Ronald." > > "Veil Arnold." > > "Veil Roland." > > "Rev lion lad." > > "Red lav lion." > > "Old evil. A RN." > > "A live, old RN." > > "Vlei Ronald." > > "Load veil RN." > > > > Snapesmate > > > > And lets not forget these for "Ollivander's" > > we have either "Ronald Lives" or "Ronald's evil" ( hmm that last one even > makes use of the apostrophe (') > > (Me) An evil lord KAT/rxk From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Dec 1 09:43:41 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 09:43:41 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Luna Lovegood, Chapter 10 In-Reply-To: <20031130152911.83516.qmail@web60003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86217 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, KT Waters wrote: > > Jadeau: (me) xxx: > > Okay I am sorry if you have discussed this Chapter before, but I > would like to go through it. > > ...edited... > > Also on that page, Fred says he has business to discuss with Lee. I would have presumed that this 'business' was to do with the Joke Shop? but Lee wasn't part of it, so what business is it? > bboy_mn: But they are partners with Lee. Remember during the Tri-Wizards Tournement when Fred, George, and Lee all agree that no matter which of them won the prize, they were going to split it three ways. Also, when they are testing various Skiving Snack Box treats, Lee is always there helping them. I think they consider him a partner in their business whether it's monkey business or real business. However, unless Lee comes up with some cash to invest in the business, he will never be more than an employee. > Jadeau: > > Cho comes into the compartment, by herself, and I do think she jumps around a bit. It has been what - two months? - since Cedric died and she already appears to be chasing Harry. So if she liked him all along, why was it so easy for her to stop liking him and fall out? She is really weird, that girl. > bboy_mn: The only reason Cho didn't start out with Harry is because Harry delayed so long in asking her to the Yule Ball. Since Harry never asked or showed an active interest, despite the fact the she obviously liked Harry, she went to the ball with the Champion who asked her. I mean what girl would jump at the chance to go with the ever so handsome Cedric? > Jadeau: >> I also got the impression that Luna perhaps fancies Ron. She laughed at his joke, a lot and she calls him Ronald, whic perhaps means something? She also seems to be looking at him on at least two occasions if I remember correctly. > > ...edited.... > > Jadeau xxx bboy_mn: I got that impression too, but it isn't devoloped well enough yet to say for sure. Just a thought. bboy_mn From astrid at netspace.net.au Mon Dec 1 12:00:55 2003 From: astrid at netspace.net.au (Astrid Wootton) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 23:00:55 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: time travel revisited - Added Note: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86218 On 1/12/03 11:43 AM, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: >> > > > > > bboy_mn says > > compounded by his using a broken wand that he can't actually get his > hand around. The best that he can do is hold the unbrella that holds > the broken wand. That certainly can help his magical abilities at all. > I suspect with a little formal effort and a new wand, Hagrid would be > a more than competent wizard. > > Now Astrid > Shouldn?t Hagrid have been allowed a wand after he was cleared of the charges > that occasioned his expulsion? (ie Tom Riddle framed Hagrid at the first > opening of the Chamber of Secrets. Hagrid was expelled and his wand broken.) > Surely in the oncoming struggle Hagrid should have the protection of a > functional wand. > > Astrid > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > b/S=1707544108:HM/EXP=1070325853/A=1853618/R=0/*http://www.netflix.com/Default > ?mqso=60178338&partid=4116730> > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts > to which you're replying! > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 1 11:32:03 2003 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 11:32:03 -0000 Subject: Titled Characters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86219 Carol wrote: He's from an earlier era, possible the early thirteenth century, which would make him a contemporary of the notorious King John. Now me, Sylvia: Spot on, Carol. King John had a lot of trouble with the barons, who finally forced Magna Carta on him. For someone to be called The Bloody Baron at this period, he must have been exceptionally awful, given the level of most of the others. BTW, I quite agree that Nearly Headless Nick probably got the chop in the reign of Henry Tudor (who I will not call Henry VII) which would make him a Yorkist (hurray!) It seems to be not uncommon for the executioner to need several swipes before finally getting the head off (Monmouth, Thomas Cromwell etc.) so he was not alone in his predicament Sylvia From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Mon Dec 1 13:13:40 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 13:13:40 -0000 Subject: Is Snape confident? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86220 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nora Renka" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" > wrote: > > June: Snip away - we're all pals here! > >> > *emerges from the woodwork yet again* > > I will cheerfully concede that Snape is wonderfully confident in that > opening; a good way to rivet a class, and make sure they pay > attention--and Potions seems to have a high level of....occupational > hazard, so that's important. But Snape isn't always confident, being > Mr. Walking Contradiction that he is. Think about the Shrieking > Shack--yes, he's under stress, yes...but the way he *explodes* when > Hermione suggests taking a listen, and thinking things through? > That's not confidence. That's 'I-want-to-get-this-over-with-NOW', > and something else... June: I don't think Snape's going into meltdown suggests a crisis of confidence. Here's the next episode in my Snape loved Lily take (and I don't particularly claim any original thinking here) but lets look at his motivation in the Shrieking Shack incident very carefully in the light of what I believe. On 31 October c. 1981 (I am adhering to the Lexicon Timeline here)Voldemort went to Godric's Hollow to what should have been a safe house and murdered James and Lily Potter. They were in a safe house precisely because Snape had tipped off Dumbledore, and by implication the Order, that this might happen. He had been the eavesdropper at the Hogs Head. After he tells LV - he realises just who the prophecy concerns - and now it's personal. Following understanding this information Snape not only becomes an informant but actively changes sides. I suspect that at this point, he learned Occlumency from the real master Occlumens - Dumbledore. Dumbledore takes Snape's tip off seriously as well he might - and as a skilled Legilimens he is able to make a good judgement as to whether it is true or not - this by the way is why he trusts Snape so much. Following this, arrangements are made for the concealment of the Potters and remember Dumbledore also knows the contents of the Prophecy and thanks to Snape is able to see the game from both ends. How to protect the Potters? The special Fidelius charm is operated with a secret keeper. Now I believe that Snape would automatically suspect that Sirius Black was the secret keeper - and why not - it's the obvious choice. If anything, he's going to avoid knowing any real details about this like the plague, given that he is so close to LV so at no time before the murders is he going to ask Dumbledore for information as to who the secret keeper really is. Naturally, we all know that Sirius wasn't the secret keeper - Pettigrew was and he ratted on them fairly quickly. So the Potters die and Harry is saved. The next canon evidence we have of what Snape was doing is that he was appointed Potions Master at Hogwarts the September following the death of the Potters and the Fall of LV. So what was he doing before that? My suggestion is that he was pretty much in a state of breakdown. He probably found out about the deaths and the fall very early (my own suspicion is he knew that very night) and if he did love Lily, and given the fact that he was so involved in getting information on the prophecy for Voldemort - regardless of the fact that he changed sides, this messes with his mind quite a bit. He was appointed to Hogwarts because there was a vacancy, because he needed somewhere to stay and was pretty fragile at the time. Time passes, and he mends a bit, though only outwardly I suspect. He constructs a fairly effective outward shell of nastymindedness. One thing is in his mind and that is revenge - he feels heavily implicated in the deaths of the Potters, but there is a worse traitor in his eyes - the secret keeper who betrayed them - Sirius Black and given his and Snape's history - Snape is not going to believe anything but the worst of Black. So putting Black into a fate worse than death is certainly not "a schoolboy grudge" it goes much deeper than that. And the sight of people who (Snape feels) should know better conniving at the escape of this accessory before the fact of murder puts him beyond fury. > >> > Which reminds me, Snape-apologists; is one of Snape's most chilling > quotes (to me) just a role being played? > > PoA, p. 416 (Scholastic hardcover) > > "...only hope Dumbledore's not going to make difficulties," Snape was > saying. > > Unless that's Fudge-Pandering-Role-Playing!Snape, that's not a good > sentiment. At all. Wanting your superior, who you clearly owe a lot, > out of the way? An attempt to get something done that you really > know you shouldn't? Comments? June: Yeah, one or two . Snape has been on the receiving end of DD's soft heart - a harder man might well have handed him (Snape)over to the authorities. Snape doesn't want the "charming" Sirius Black getting the opportunity to work that ole Black magic on any sympathetic listeners. Just let the Dementors snog him and have done. You might wish to know that I consider Snape's actions on the night of the Shrieking shack his very worst moments in the entire canon. There may well have been a rather long employee/boss interview later that night or early that morning. And even if he was sorry, he still found time to be very petty and expose Lupin as a werewolf the next day, I don't think his actions are entirely excusable. His apparent smugness at the idea of Black getting his is repellent - even to me, a big time Snape fan. However, when we consider this in the light of a man finally achieving a long goal - ie sticking Lily's murder to Black, his actions become understandable if not entirely excusable. > -Nora (who loves arguing with the Snape apologists, and means no > offense by any comments of a moral nature or otherwise) June: None taken whatsoever! June - who will jump at the chance to defend the REAL hero of the saga. From gabrielle9578 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 1 13:06:08 2003 From: gabrielle9578 at yahoo.co.uk (gabrielle9578) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 13:06:08 -0000 Subject: Hagrid and Dudley Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86221 Hi everyone, I am new to this group-so a hello to one and all. I've always had a burning question at the back of my head. I remember in the Philosopher's Stone, Hagrid gave Dudley a pig's tail and I dont remember the Ministry of Magic sending an owl to him at all--like what happened to Harry on both occasions (Dobby in Chamber of Secrets and his patronus in Order of the phoenix). Plus Hagrid is not a fully trained wizard! Anyone out there able to enlighten me?? From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Dec 1 14:05:43 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 14:05:43 -0000 Subject: Bang! You're Dead. (was:Voldemorts animus...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86222 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > > Carol: You still haven't answered Geoff's argument > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/85985 regarding > the canonical evidence against having good guys use the unforgiveable > curses. Surely they are unforgiveable and illegal for a reason, and, > if so, JKR will need to provide some alternative to having Harry > perform a curse that would send him to Azkaban. I don't think she > believes that "all's fair in love and war" and that she will put > herself in the tricky situation of having defined the rules and then > decided to change them. She has clearly established a distinction > between good and evil in the WW and it seems to me that she needs to > maintain it. Geoff's quotations illustrate that distinction quite > clearly, as do certain statements by Dumbledore that I will hunt up if > necessary when I have more time. JKR has said in an interview that > Dumbledore is "the epitome of goodness," > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/0700-cbc- solomon.htm > which I hope is sufficient evidence that his assertions matter in > thies discussion. > Kneasy: Hmm. So by your reading of the canon Harry should start volume 6 in Azkaban. He has used an unforgivable curse, hasn't he? But we both know that this won't happen. It's also canon that unforgivable curses were used by Aurors in old Barty's day. Not a very popular character, I'll agree, but he was organising the fight for the survival of a free WW. The canon reads as if only Aurors were permitted to use the curses, though I doubt if Barty would have made a fuss if one were used in self defence. The majority of the WW weren't comfortable with it, but accepted that it was the only effective way to fight back. Until Godrics Hollow Voldy was *winning*. Note also that Moody was supposed to be the star Auror. Is he evil or stricken with a conscience that makes him run around chanting "Mea culpa?" No. It's also canon that the old Order had other Aurors as members. Didn't seem to bother Dumbledore much, so far as I can see. As the epitome of goodness you would expect him to take an immovable moral stand, but I can't find any evidence of this. Moody is mentioned as one of his oldest friends, not an untouchable pariah who participated in Dark Magic. Dumbledore 'the epitome of goodness' is a very interesting concept. I agree, but selectively. Then I can have it both ways. It certainly supports my contention that Elves are not enslaved. He has never given any encouragement to Hermione and her crusade, has he? Carol: > I agree that the wands won't work, but I have nothing against Harry > being healed a second time by Phoenix tears. And I never said that > Voldemort would fight fairly, only that Harry should. The moment > Voldemort raises a wand or other weapon against him or a friend, Harry > has the right and responsibility to fight defensively. That's what > DADA is for; Hogwarts, unlike Durmstrang, does not teach the Dark Arts > themselves, only *defense* against them. So Harry must find a way to > destroy Voldemort without resorting to Dark weapons, including > unforgiveable curses, himself. I have never said that he should take > pity on Voldemort, much less love his enemy. I have only said that he > must not muddy the distinction between good (Dumbledore) and evil > (Voldemort) that JKR herself has established. > Kneasy: Fine. But doesn't canon state that there is no defence against an AK? No blocking it, no counter-curse. Even Dumbledore had to be saved from one by Fawkes' interventional sacrifice. Not many other wizards have such protection. I'm pleased that you have no objection to Voldy being smeared across the landscape; just the method used causes you concern. Why? Dead is dead. Harry has already stepped across the line with a Crucio! Can he erase that from canon? Or will his teenage bloody-mindedness continue or even increase? DD may be the epitome of goodness, but is Harry? Doesn't look like he is; the way he's written he's a flawed personality. Harry has Voldy attributes - that is canon. Maybe there will be more of Voldy in Harry than you will find comfortable. Be prepared! Carol: > You may be right about Bellatrix's comments being a red herring, but I > don't think so. She and Voldemort appear to enjoy inflicting pain and > death. If, indeed, that feeling is required to make the curses > effective, then the reason they're "unforgiveable" is clear. They can > be cast only by someone who is already cruel and well on his or her > way to becoming irreversibly evil. > Kneasy: Yes, Bella and her squeeze do enjoy inflicting pain. Is that relevant to everyone else? Did the Aurors empowered by Crouch enjoy it? Did they all irrevocably become Dark Magicians with no redeeming features? I suspect that generalising from extreme examples could be misleading. Moody and his confederates are irreversibly evil by that argument and I can see no evidence for it. I repeat my simile regarding the difference between surgeons and sadists. > Carol, who hopes that you'll quote canon this time instead of calling > those who disagree with you "touchy-feely New Agers." We just don't > share your view of a satisfactory ending. And BTW, it won't hurt your > argument to concede a few points. :-) Kneasy: Enough canon content for you? The "touchy-feely new-agers" I rail against are those who decry the need to destroy Voldy; who seem to think rehabilitation is the preferred ending. Nah, it won't serve IMO. Concede a few points? Good heavens! Why would I want to do that? Takes all the fun out of it. I concede unarguable canon, of course, but there's less of this than most seem to believe. There's a lot of apparently conflicting, but sometimes indirect evidence, such as Bella's statements and the acceptance of Moody within the Order and Crouch, the man who authorised the use of the unforgivables as being respected, though disliked. (Even then, the dislike appears to be based on his treatment of his son more than for his methods of dealing with the DEs.) I welcome with open arms views contrary to my own, in fact I'd be sadly disappointed if I wasn't challenged on a regular basis. It would be boring if we all thought the same way. By the same token you need some unregenerate, insensitive, "kill 'em all lest the evil persist!" hard-hearted types to deplore. I suspect that we both start from the same basic philosophy: I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain. From quigonginger at yahoo.com Mon Dec 1 15:27:49 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 15:27:49 -0000 Subject: Is Peeves a Ghost? was Re: Wizard to ghost? In-Reply-To: <000101c3b78d$82d477e0$c591aec7@Einstein> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86225 Ginger here: I wrote my junior term paper on poltergeists. Mind you, that was over 20 years ago, so bear with me if I don't remember everything :) As I recall, there are 2 theories about poltergeists. One is the type of ghost theory, the other is the manifestation of psychic energy theory. Iggy explained both rather well, but I snipped his ghost theory as this is the one on which I am expanding. So, here's Iggy's explanation of the psychic thoery: Iggy: > In the HP books, on the other hand, Peeves was probably inadvertently > created, and sustained, by all the students who attend, and live at, > Hogwarts. All students have a sense of mischief, and pranks that they > wish they could play on their teachers and fellow classmates. With so > many people in such an area, and for as long as Hogwarts has been > around, especially considering that the people residing on the grounds > are wizards and witches... > > All of this has either drawn Peeves to the grounds, or even caused him > to be created. (After all, we have never heard of Peeves ever leaving > the grounds.) > > > In more mundane aspects of life in our own world, poltergeists are > supposed to be either the aforementioned manifestations of a pervading > mischievous emotions, or even unconscious use of innate or latent > psychic abilities (such as low level telekinesis) in people who seem to > be plagued by them. (Some others, of course, have been proven to be > hoaxes.) Ginger again: I'd like to add to that. When I did my paper, I learned that there were 3 things that tended to cause a manifestation of a poltergeist: Teenagers, females of childbearing years, and epileptics. The research that was done showed that these 3 types of people were overwhelmingly more effected by poltergeists. The theory was that they put off more undirected energy. The females and teenagers due to fluxuating hormones, and the epileptics due to the unusual brain waves. At Hogwarts, we see lots of teenagers and females. It would stand to reason, by this theory, that a poltergeist could survive indefinately. During Harry's time we see him having turns and fits, brought on by LV, but nonetheless, excess energy. Every new year of students brings in a fresh crop of undirected energy, if we assume that magic is an energy. I've seen that theory well expounded upon, but I can't remember where right now. I know it was on this list. Sorry to whomever it was. Even the older students have misdirected energy when learning a new charm. I think Iggy was dead on when he figured that Peeves was created and sustained by the energy of the students. The one thing that wonders me is the references to having Peeves expelled. (CoS p.128 US paperback, and GoF p.470 US hardcover). Traditional exorcisms generally don't work on poltergeists as, under this theory, they are not an incarnation of evil, nor of a deceased person. Perhaps there is a magical way of getting rid of them; after all, Myrtle was banned from following Olive. Ginger, who is going to stop now as this is getting really long. From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Mon Dec 1 15:45:35 2003 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 15:45:35 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bang! You're Dead. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FCB621F.8070003@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86226 > Kneasy: > > Dumbledore 'the epitome of goodness' is a very interesting concept. > I agree, but selectively. Then I can have it both ways. It certainly > supports my contention that Elves are not enslaved. He has never given > any encouragement to Hermione and her crusade, has he? > digger: Dumbledore is wise enough to know that what the House Elves are enslaved by is their own belief system. There is no way to change the moral, social and ethical beliefs of a race of beings in a short period of time. Telling them they are free, or knitting them wooly hats, is not going to change the Elves beliefs, and Dumbledore knows it. That kind of change only takes place over generations. Dumbledore is doing what he can by giving encouragemnt and paid employment to elves like Dobby and Winky. Dobby needs to get going in the family production department and raise some free elf-kids. From rredordead at aol.com Mon Dec 1 15:55:02 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 15:55:02 -0000 Subject: Evans/Petunia/ Grandpa Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86227 > punkieshazam wrote: > (snippage) I believe that young Tom Riddle claimed the Riddle fortune and on leaving Hogwarts lived as a rich Muggle. He married and had a family. I believe he changed his name and lived for a while, using that assumed name in the Riddle house. My theory makes TR change his name to Evans and he and his unsuspecting Muggle wife had two daughters, Lily and Petunia. Now me: I'm beginning to question just how easy it is to believe someone is muggle born. What I mean by that is there are no outward, physical signs of being born into a non-wizarding family, you only have your parent's behavior as non-witches, and if they are dead there is nothing to show. So it becomes only assumption, hearsay and the fact that the community of the WW is so small (that every one knows everyone else) that a person is known to be Muggle-born. So if this is the case, it seems to make it possible that someone can hide their true parentage. At least from every one except the Ministry of Magic. Tom Riddle could and did cover up his true parentage for his own advantage. We know he did it to create a new identity for himself as Lord Voldemort. Perhaps he also did it to amass a muggle fortune as well. What we know about him was he was an orphan living in an orphanage who then went to Hogwarts. When he left school, it is an almost certainty he went to his fathers house and killed is Father, Stepmother and a teenage boy who I believe was their son, the muggle Tom Riddle. The question is what did Wizard Tom do then? We know at some point he went to live in Europe and became Lord Voldemort. But perhaps he choose to stay for a while in England and if so would he have chosen to live for a while as a muggle when he despised them so? Was he trying, perhaps, to connect with his father in someway, to show him how powerful and strong a man and wizard he had become and was spurned by him a second time before Wizard Tom finally murdered them all? Did wizard Tom assume the identity of a relation of the elder Tom Riddle to inherit his estate? Wizard Tom would need money to live on after leaving Hogwarts. And is there a chance wizard Tom fell in love during the time he was back at his fathers house and had a family that resulted in two daughters with the name Evens? It all seems possible. Mandy From belijako at online.no Mon Dec 1 16:25:06 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 16:25:06 -0000 Subject: Bang! You're Dead. (was:Voldemorts animus...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86228 Kneazy wrote: > Hmm. So by your reading of the canon Harry should start volume 6 > in Azkaban. He has used an unforgivable curse, hasn't he? But we both know that this won't happen. Berit replies: Pity :-) For Harry's sake I'm glad he wasn't landed in Azkaban, but he should really have been confronted with what he did, because it was a serious offense. I guess because of Harry's despair having lost Sirius and almost getting killed by Voldie Dumbledore "let him off the hook" for now (it's also possible, I guess, that no one else than Bellatrix knows what Harry tried to do since there were no eye witnesses at the time...). But hopefully Harry will come to realize later what he did and learn from his mistake. Kneazy: It's also canon that unforgivable curses were used by Aurors in old Barty's > day. Not a very popular character, I'll agree, but he was organising the > fight for the survival of a free WW. The canon reads as if only Aurors were > permitted to use the curses, though I doubt if Barty would have made a > fuss if one were used in self defence. > The majority of the WW weren't comfortable with it, but accepted that it > was the only effective way to fight back. Until Godrics Hollow Voldy was > *winning*. > Note also that Moody was supposed to be the star Auror. Is he evil or > stricken with a conscience that makes him run around chanting "Mea culpa?" > No. It's also canon that the old Order had other Aurors as members. Didn't > seem to bother Dumbledore much, so far as I can see. As the epitome of > goodness you would expect him to take an immovable moral stand, but I > can't find any evidence of this. Moody is mentioned as one of his oldest > friends, not an untouchable pariah who participated in Dark Magic. Berit replies: But are there any canon evidence to suggest that the majority of WW accepted that it was a necessary "evil" that the Aurors used the unforgivables (I can believe this though; the majority very often go with the flow...)? Any canon to suggest that the old Order found it okay? And where's the canon evidence Dumbledore DIDN'T object? He objected to the Ministry being in league with Dementors... I can't see how using the unforgivables is any better than befriending those foul creatures... And I think you must have overlooked the quotes Geoff wrote out a few messages ago where Sirius of all people told Harry: (GoF p. 457 UK edition): "Terror everywhere.... panic.... confusion... that's how it used to be. Well, things like that bring out the best in some people and the worst in others. Crouch's principles might've been good in the beginning - I wouldn't know. He rose quickly through the Ministry and he started ordering very harsh measures against Voldemort's supporters. The Aurors were given new powers - powers to kill rather than capture for instance. And I wasn't the only one who was handed straight to the Dementors without trial. Crouch fought violence with violence and authorised the use of the Unforgiveable Curses against suspects. I would say he became as ruthless and cruel as many on the Dark side." And: "I'll say this for Moody, though, he never killed if he could help. Always brought people in alive where possible. He was tough but he never descended to the level of the Death Eaters." (GoF p.462) When a rash and potentially violent character like Sirius saw the problems of Crouch's decision, forcing his Aurors to "descend to the level of Death Eaters", do you really think Dumbledore didn't object? If so I want to know when, according to canon, Dumbledore started to become more "blood-thirsty" than Sirius :-)) Berit From siriuslove71 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 1 16:52:02 2003 From: siriuslove71 at yahoo.com (Diana_Sirius_fan) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 16:52:02 -0000 Subject: Evans/Petunia/ Grandpa Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86229 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" > > Tom Riddle could and did cover up his true parentage for his own > advantage. We know he did it to create a new identity for himself as > Lord Voldemort. Perhaps he also did it to amass a muggle fortune as > well. What we know about him was he was an orphan living in an > orphanage who then went to Hogwarts. When he left school, it is an > almost certainty he went to his fathers house and killed is Father, > Stepmother and a teenage boy who I believe was their son, the muggle > Tom Riddle. > > Mandy I think when young Tom Riddle (aka Voldemort) went to the Riddle house he killed his grandfather, his grandmother and Tom Riddle sr., not his father, step-mother and ??brother. Diana From msn.tsf at hccnet.nl Mon Dec 1 00:40:18 2003 From: msn.tsf at hccnet.nl (Joris) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 01:40:18 +0100 Subject: Too many concepts, not enough books? References: Message-ID: <001201c3b7a3$b20ffb90$0300a8c0@joris> No: HPFGUIDX 86230 Carol: Yes and no. Certain (mostly dead) authors (Dostoevsky or Dickens, for example) will present a vivid portrait of a minor character only to drop that character from the story. No one has challenged their status as great authors because of this tactic; it was simply their preferred literary style. More recent authors, OTOH, tend to limit the number of characters in part because modern readers expect them to do so. It's hard to keep track of a large number of characters, so we expect a minor character to serve a real purpose in the story. To a surprising extent, JKR's characters DO serve such a purpose. Yes, some of them exist simply to fill up staff positions or to provide Harry and friends with classmates in their own and other houses, without whom the world of Hogwarts would be too limited and too obviously fictional. But more often than not, a name casually dropped turns out to be important later. (Sirius Black is the obvious example.) I don't suppose we'll hear more from Madam Malkin, who existed solely to provide Harry with school robes in his first year, but Dedalus Diggle (mentioned about three times in earlier books) showed up at the beginning of OoP. I expect we'll hear more from him. I certainly hope and expect to learn more about Frank and Alice Longbottom and Neville's gran. For the same reason, I think Mark Evans will prove to be important. When JKR drops a name, we should pay attention. That person will almost certainly have a role to play in later books. --me (Yoris/Ender)-- I sure don't hope so, I think it's unrealistic if only characters are introduced properly who will play a real role later. I think it's really part of the fun to see a glimpse of a side character 3 times in the whole series and knowing that he's not just thought up for that one scene but is really a person in the WW. It gives the idea there is a WW outside the books. If you only (really get to) see people who will play a major role later it's just like the HP books are the entire WW, like there is nothing in the WW outside HP. But these clues that give you the idea the WW is far bigger then HP are a big part of why i think this children book is so fun to read, also for me as an adult. Yoris/Ender //who isn't saying we shouldn't be paying attention to all the characters because of course SOME will be used, just not all, ok :) From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 1 17:06:15 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 17:06:15 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans - evans, Evans, EVANS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86231 > > Pip!Squeak: > > > > > > Not clear to me. > > > > > > Firstly, there is no evidence apart from a coincidence of > > > surnames that Mark Evans is related to Harry Potter. My local > > > phonebook has an entire large page of Evans's. It's a very > > > common surname. > > Steve (Bboy) writes: > And just by happenstance, the name Evans is used in reference to > TWO seemingly unrelated people. It's hard to believe that JKR > could use the same name in the critical book in which Lily's > family name is revealed, to refer to two unrelated people. Really > hard to believe. Pip!Squeak: Ah, but the significance of the *name*? JKR could have picked any surname she liked for Lily. Anything. There are plenty of surnames in the UK where the holders are almost certainly related to everyone else with that surname. Heck, my family includes one of those surnames, and it's spooky how people can often spot that my unbelievably distant cousins *are* cousins, because of the similarities. But she didn't pick that type of surname for Lily. With all the possibilities - the place names where everyone is from the same small area, the names derived from famous families, the names derived from one small family who immigrated to England centuries ago ... she picked 'Evans'. And one thing we know about JKR - she picks character names with great care. Steve: > It seems to me that JKR was trying pretty hard to drill that name > into our minds; trying pretty hard, virtually screaming it at us, > to make sure we didn't miss that name. > > That has to have some significants. Certainly, if there were none, > she would have used a different surname for Mark. I can't believe > she was so desperate for good names, that she had to recycle a > simple name like Evans. Certainly Smith or Jones would have worked just as well. Pip!Squeak: Would it? With Smith or Jones, we would *know* that a relationship is not very likely. 'Evans' is not as well known as those. 'Evans' is the sort of name that could have people saying 'are you related?' Because they're not as aware that it's a Smith/Jones type name, held by people who could have no relationship to each other. [Look how many people are saying 'Aha, same surname - are they related?' here ;-)] Steve: > This doesn't seem to be that case. The only other explaination is > that JKR inserted a 'Got Ya'; something that serves no purpose at > all with regard to the story, it's simply there to screw with the > heads of the readers. That would seem to be a step out of > character for the books. > The only conclusion I can reach is that this name has some > significants, and since Harry and Mark share a common ancestral > name,the inference is that they share common ancestry. I've make > it clear that is this is true, I believe it is distant ancestry. Pip!Squeak: No, 'Mark Evans' serves a purpose. But I believe the inference that Mark Evans has a common ancestry with Harry Potter is false. To recap: JKR has set up that the *wizarding world* is inbred. JKR has set up that *wizards* with common surnames are related. JKR has given an off-stage character the same name as Harry's mother. JKR has emphasised Harry's mother's surname. OK. But... JKR has given Harry's mother a surname where NOT all the holders are related. JKR has emphasised that Harry's mother is *muggle-born* JKR has given the same surname to another *muggle-born* character. I think we're being led down a garden path of 'all characters in the Potterverse with the same surname are relatives'. Therefore 'Mark Evans' must be a relative. However - Harry makes no mention that Mark Evans is a relative. Dudley doesn't see Mark Evans as a relative. The only relative to visit the Dursley household was a Dursley. The only relatives Petunia mentions are her sister, her parents, and Harry. (Plus Dudley's Aunt Marge, mentioned in PS/SS as well as PoA). Dumbledore refers to the Dursley's as Harry's only family. Evans is a common name. Most people called Evans probably aren't related. And, most importantly: Both Mark Evans and Lily Evans come from the muggle world. The world where everyone *isn't* interestingly inbred. The world where a coincidence of surnames may well be just a coincidence. Steve: > As with the real world, JKR's fictional world is very big, but our > window into her fictional world is very small, we see it through > Harry's eyes. For the name Evans to pass twice in front of that > small window without significants, seems very very unlikely. Pip!Squeak: And I think that JKR is using her Agatha Christie tricks again. [If you have a chance to look at the photo on the back of the UK adult edition of OOP, she's photographed in front of a bookcase which includes Agatha Christie novels]. It's a literary convention. Characters in novels (unlike in real life) don't have the same name. Present the reader with two characters with the same surname in a novel, they'll probably assume a relationship. What Christie always did was to use those literary conventions to fool the reader. She would set up the convention (sweet innocent young thing, obviously predestined murder victim), then break it (sweet innocent young thing is currently on her third victim...). JKR is, I think, doing the same thing. Harry wants a family; he is now aware of his mother's maiden name. Is he going to develop an interest in Mark Evans? If Mark Evans does turn up at Hogwarts, isn't he going to be *sure* that Mark is a long lost relative? Aren't we going to be sure? The literary convention says that the author doesn't re-use a surname, after all ;-) And yet ... With all the interesting, meaningful surnames she could have picked (and has picked for other characters ) - she picked Evans. "Why didn't they ask Evans?" It's a Christie trick. Pip!Squeak From meriaugust at yahoo.com Mon Dec 1 17:15:36 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 17:15:36 -0000 Subject: Hagrid and Dudley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86232 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gabrielle9578" wrote: > Hi everyone, I am new to this group-so a hello to one and all. > > I've always had a burning question at the back of my head. I > remember in the Philosopher's Stone, Hagrid gave Dudley a pig's tail > and I dont remember the Ministry of Magic sending an owl to him at > all--like what happened to Harry on both occasions (Dobby in Chamber > of Secrets and his patronus in Order of the phoenix). > > Plus Hagrid is not a fully trained wizard! > > Anyone out there able to enlighten me?? Hagrid is sometimes given special permission from Dumbledore to perform magic under extreme circumstances, like bewitching the boat to row itself back from the Hut on the Rock, flying himslef out to the Hut, and doing other general things to ensure that Harry got his letter. (I can't quote cannon at the moment, I don't have my book at school with me.) I am assuming that Hagrid didn't get a letter because the MoM was notified by Dumbledore that Harry was at present being rescued from the Muggles by Hagrid and that he would probably have to use magic to get the job done. At that point I'm sure the MoM was just as concerned with Harry's welfare as DD. Just a thought. Meri From historygrrl1 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 1 08:45:52 2003 From: historygrrl1 at yahoo.com (historygrrl1) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 08:45:52 -0000 Subject: New Clues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86233 My personal impression of New Clues is that, while it offers a useful service to many readers, it doesn't reveal anything that doesn't leap out of the books on its own after 4 or 5 readings. (Except for the wild James/Lupin theory, by which I am underwhelmed.) > After reading New Clues to Harry Potter - Book 5, by the Wizarding > World Press, I don't know where to being to get everyone's opinions > on some of these new "clues." So, I guess I'll start with a few > things about Chapter One. > > 1. QUOTE from NEW CLUES: "The way book 5 begins has a bit of a deja > vu feel to it. Plus, it somehow flows with the way the book ends. HP > Sleuths who are of the more daring type when it comes to literature > may want to take a short cruise through Finnegan's Wake, by James > Joyce. (Note: we wouldn't pretend to imply that anyone should attempt > to read it all the way through - unless you happen to be a Buckley- > style linguist.) Another work you may find reminiscent of the theme > of the begining of book 5 is Paradise Lost, by John Milton." I THINK (but I'm not sure) that Finnegan's Wake is the book that is circular. The ending is the beginning, or something like that. I have just checked my copy of book 5, and I do not see the ending behaving that way. I also have not read Finnegan's Wake, and I don't have a copy available to check the ending/beginning out and see how it works. I also have not read Paradise Lost, but unless New Clues is implying a larger connection than similar themes in the beginning, I'm disinclined. A lot of books have droughts and heat in them. As does Britain itself, from time to time. > QUOTE from NEW CLUES: "For being late at night, there was certainly a > lot of activity in Magnolia Crescent... like something down the > street shortly after the Dementer attack. Was it something important? > No it was just... " Hot summers make for busy evenings. It's possible that Mr. Prentice is important. He's probably not a wizard though. At Harry's trial, Fudge claims that there are no other Wizards living in Harry's area. He could be wrong, but he makes it sound as though the Ministry has a way of keeping track. I also do not think that the ellipses in Mrs. Figg's speech are necessarily "interruptions," in the barely-averted- revelations sense. I think they could equally well represent pauses. > 3. NEW CLUES also suggests the way Harry is poking fun at Dudley has > significance. He does use a bit of baby talk, does he not? The > other person who uses baby talk in OoP is none other than Voldie's #1 > Mistress - Bella! Hmmm... The baby talk thing could have some significance. Maybe. Harry and Bellatrix also both use unforgiveable curses. And we know that Harry is having Voldemort dreams and scar-twinges from the beginning of the book. It's possible that one of Harry/Lord V's shared characteristics lies in certain patterns of behavior, which include short tempers and specific patterns of social aggression. On the other hand, Harry may just be digging at what he thinks is one of Dudley's weaker points - he's a mama's boy, and he doesn't want his friends to know it. Bella is digging at Harry's weak point - his youth and inexperience. These things do lend themselves to similar strategies. As lengthy and detailed as they are, I think it will eventually become clear that the HP books have been very economically written. So chances are most of this stuff is significant in some way. All the same, I think these cases mainly emphasize ongoing themes and motifs rather than foreshadowing events in this or later books. "historygirl" From sanityescapesme1979 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 1 10:01:49 2003 From: sanityescapesme1979 at yahoo.com (sanityescapesme1979) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 10:01:49 -0000 Subject: Petunia's Family Loyalty Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86234 Chelly wrote: "It hasn't been explained (or I didn't read that closely) why Petunia kept Harry all those years?" Dumbledore explains to Harry later on the reason why he has to stay there. Its because when Harry's mom sacrified herself to save Harry, he used that magic to leave him at the Dursleys. Her love for Harry and the expecteness of Petunia taking in Harry protects Harry at all cost. This way Voldy can't get Harry while he's there. This way the dementors attacked him outside the house not inside. I do believe Petunia loves Harry but doesn't want to show it. Otherwise, she would have not let him stay with her and protection Lily and Dumbledore did for him would have not worked. She might be a little different in the next books. Or maybe she won't, just wishful thinking. "sanityescapesme" From lovefromhermione at yahoo.com Mon Dec 1 13:18:05 2003 From: lovefromhermione at yahoo.com (Julie Hurdman) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 05:18:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's ideal ending & my idea of a horrible ending In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031201131805.12048.qmail@web40203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86235 --- justcarol67 wrote: > One of Harry's > friends, we know, will become a teacher at > Hogwarts--no Ron and > probably not Hermione ("It's not who you > think"--sorry--quoting from > memory) so it's probably Neville. Julie: Are you sure it's one of Harry's friends who becomes a teacher? It seems to me that that hint that one of the students will end up a teacher has already been fulfilled, with the DA. Julie, a new member who waves a merry gretting to everyone __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Mon Dec 1 17:10:22 2003 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 17:10:22 -0000 Subject: Hagrid and Dudley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86236 gabrielle9578 wrote: > Hagrid gave Dudley a pig's tail > and I dont remember the Ministry of Magic sending an owl to him at > all--like what happened to Harry on both occasions (Dobby in Chamber > of Secrets and his patronus in Order of the phoenix). > > Plus Hagrid is not a fully trained wizard! > > Anyone out there able to enlighten me?? I can enlighten you :). Harry's warning letter specifically said "underage wizards" and threatened to "expel" Harry from school. Hagrid is an adult and he's already been expeled, so he wouldn't receive a letter threatening to expel him for "underage" magic. However, Hagrid is not a fully trained wizard, so you would think he would get some kind of warning unless the law doesn't work that way. I'd always wondered about Hagrid's status too. Since, he does do magic, albeit sparringly, you have to wonder is he breaking the law or is there more to it than that. What kind of warning/punishment do adult wizards who have been expeled get (if any)? We haven't heard about that yet. In PS/SS, Hagrid says now that he's got Harry, he's not allowed to use magic. So, Hagrid was allowed to use magic up until he retrieved Harry. Who gave Hagrid permission to use magic? Dumbledore? We learn in OOP that Dumbledore sits on some pretty high wizarding committees. He could have the ability to give permission for Hagrid to use magic, although that wouldn't cover giving Dudley a pig's tail which is why he asked Harry not to mention the pig tail incident around Hogwarts. Also, Hagrid becomes a professor in POA, after his innocence is proven at the end of COS, so it could be assumed that Hagrid now has permission to practice magic, although you would think we'd of heard of this. In OOP, Mrs. Weasley tells the twins that just because they can use magic now that doesn't mean they have to use magic for every thing. The twins still had a year of school left, but they were allowed to use magic. Also, they leave school to work at their joke shop and they didn't "finish" Hogwarts. Since they're creating and making magical merchandise, they must be using magic. We don't hear of them getting into trouble. Judging from the twins in OOP, one could assume that people who haven't finished Hogwarts are allowed to practice magic as long as they are of age and haven't been expelled. (Umbridge did try to expel the twins, however I can't remember if she did or not. Besides, it wouldn't matter, because her expulsion could easily be overturned at the end of OOP.) Hagrid's expulsion could have been overturned at the end of COS making him an adult wizard who is allowed to practice magic, but still not a wizard who "finished" Hogwarts. Not finishing Hogwarts would definately limit your career choices and carry a stigma, but I don't remember JKR explicitly stating that you have to finish Hogwarts to practice magic at all. If I'm wrong, someone please let me know. Yolanda From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Dec 1 14:49:55 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 14:49:55 -0000 Subject: Bang! You're Dead. (was:Voldemorts animus...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86237 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: Kneasy: > Note also that Moody was supposed to be the star Auror. Is he evil or > stricken with a conscience that makes him run around chanting "Mea culpa?" > No. It's also canon that the old Order had other Aurors as members. Didn't > seem to bother Dumbledore much, so far as I can see. As the epitome of > goodness you would expect him to take an immovable moral stand, but I > can't find any evidence of this. Moody is mentioned as one of his oldest > friends, not an untouchable pariah who participated in Dark Magic. Geoff: But may I remind you of the quote which I gave from GOF - "'I'll say this for Moody, though, he never killed IF HE COULD HELP IT. Always brought people in alive where possible. He was tough but he never descended to the level of the Death Eaters.'" (GOF UK edition p.462) My emphasis. The suggestion from Sirius was that Crouch was prepared to indulge in the use of the Unforgiveables as a matter of course and appeared to enjoy it. He was also responsible for sending folk to Azkaban without a trial, knowing what that particualr hellhole was like - (reminds me of some of the internment problems in Northern Ireland a decade ro so ago). Moody is like many people in a war situation; the implication is that he /did/ kill but only as a last resort. I can understand that. I can agree with Christians in the Confessing Church in Germany who were prepared to join in the 1944 conspiracy against Hitler because it seemed to be the only thing to stop the Nazis going into oblivion and pulling the whole country down with them. But there is a difference between those folk who allow themselves to be drawn in the direction of the evil which they fight and replace one form of oppression with another - Communist Russia for example - with those who reluctantly take that path because they echo Luther's words "Here I stand, I can do no other". Geoff From lynch at agere.com Mon Dec 1 17:13:52 2003 From: lynch at agere.com (zihav) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 17:13:52 -0000 Subject: Evans/Petunia/ Grandpa Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86238 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Diana_Sirius_fan" > I think when young Tom Riddle (aka Voldemort) went to the Riddle > house he killed his grandfather, his grandmother and Tom Riddle sr., > not his father, step-mother and ??brother. > Diana I agree, and I think that's what is wrong at the grave yard. The bones were his grandfather, not his father. Maybe DD was smart enough to move his father's bones after Voldemort lost his powers.... Tom From groups at e-dennis.net Mon Dec 1 16:08:22 2003 From: groups at e-dennis.net (groups at e-dennis.net) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 11:08:22 -0500 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Luna Lovegood, Chapter 10 - Luna's Crush In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86239 <<> Jadeau: >> I also got the impression that Luna perhaps fancies Ron. She laughed at his joke, a lot and she calls him Ronald, whic perhaps means something? She also seems to be looking at him on at least two occasions if I remember correctly. > > ...edited.... > > Jadeau xxx bboy_mn: I got that impression too, but it isn't devoloped well enough yet to say for sure. Just a thought. bboy_mn >> I think perhaps Luna is looking at someone she's known for years in a new light during that scene, which could be the beginning of a crush on Ron. I think they live pretty close to one another, because in "The Portkey" chapter (GoF), Amos Diggory tells Mr. Weasley that they aren't waiting on the Lovegoods, because they've been at the Quidditch World Cup for a week already. They probably went to primary school together... Off this subject, I think Luna might play a role if ever there was trouble at the Burrow. I can see her leading a band of Crumple Horned Snorkacks over Stoatshead Hill to flank a band of Death Eaters. *grin* - Dennis From souzia at localnet.com Mon Dec 1 18:24:30 2003 From: souzia at localnet.com (mad_maxime) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 18:24:30 -0000 Subject: The magic power of love. Was: BANG! You're dead! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86240 Severus: "Remeber Harry is quite powerful in his magical ability, his patronus is superior to many other full grown wizards, and he did force LV's AK beam back into LV's wand,it as his power behind his wand that enabled him to do that. I thinkwe will see a much older Harry after the summer is done." Kneasy: "What he's been through would turn anyone old and grey. But I think that you're overestimating Harry. He's not a skillful wizard, he stumbles from one crisis to another, coming through by sheer luck or outsideinfluence (such as co-incidental wand conflict). What he is though, is lucky. He can learn a new spell when needed, but a whole new state of mind, plus a new mental discipline, plus a new magical subject? Don't think so. He could probably manage to stay ahead of most of the students, but Voldemort? Arch-fiend and super-mentat?" Mad Maxime: Kneasy, it seems to me you are overestimating Voldemort. Powerful as he may be, he has made one fatal mistake after another. He seems to routinely underestimate his opponents and his prejudices blind him in ways that are detrimental to his health and well being. If JKR has been setting up a hero who only survives because he is "lucky" and has outside help as you seem to be implying, the "Arch-fiend" apparently keeps failing because of his extraordinary bad luck. Oh my, how boring. I tend to agree with Severus. JKR has demonstrated numerous times that Harry has a powerful innate magical ability (though he is, of course, not a "skillful wizard" yet, still being a student after all.) I believe that by Book 7, Harry will have developed his magical abilities to the point that he is able to exploit Voldemort's weaknesses. In fact, JKR seems to be implying that Harry is uniquely set up to defeat Voldemort because he possesses a power that the Dark Lord knows not. Is that power hate (hack/slash, blood/guts and the unforgivables)? I think not. Hate is something Voldemort knows quite well and has cultivated to perfection. I think most of us can agree that Harry stands no chance of defeating Voldemort by cultivating hate. No, Harry will cultivate something quite the opposite, I believe. JKR seems to be implying that Harry's power has something to do with love and compassion. (No, this doesn't mean Harry is going to defeat Voldemort by giving him hugs and kisses. I trust that JKR can come up with something more interesting than that!) I believe we're talking about the 'power of love' in the broadest sense of it's meaning here. How things will play out, we can only guess. Two things we can be certain of though - Voldemort does not seem understand and/or underestimates the power of love, and he is most definitely not invincible. "Mad Maxime" From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Mon Dec 1 19:03:28 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 13:03:28 -0600 Subject: FILK - The Dark Lord Message-ID: <000001c3b83d$d27c4060$f535d843@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 86241 It looks like YahooMort managed to AK my first attempts to post these two filks... So here they are. Iggy here: Ok all... I have a new filk for everyone to (hopefully) enjoy. And please forgive, I rhymed the word "Muggles" as best I could. *grin* Iggy McSnurd The Dark Lord (to the tune of "The Candyman" from Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory) Lucius: Who can kill his foes With power, style, and grace Who can spread fear All over the place? The Dark Lord The Dark Lord can The Dark Lord can cause he uses the Dark Arts and wants the world to rule. Who designed the Dark Mark To let you know he's here Blast it in the sky And spread the pain and fear? Death Eaters: The Dark Lord? Lucius: The Dark Lord The Dark Lord can The Dark Lord can cause he uses the Dark Arts and wants the world to rule. Lord Voldemort will kill All who defy his will Being evil and so vicious At his plans the mind, it boggles He will even kill some Muggles. Who will rule tomorrow It will be a dream Separate the sorrow And drink it up like cream? The Dark Lord Death Eaters: Lord Voldemort can Lucius: The Dark Lord can cause he uses the Dark Arts and wants the world to rule. He'll get the world to rule cause the Dark Lord thinks he should From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Mon Dec 1 19:04:07 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 13:04:07 -0600 Subject: FILK - Total Liberation Message-ID: <000101c3b83d$ea0703f0$f535d843@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 86242 Iggy here: Hi all. I have another filk for your enjoyment. (And yes, I may eventually have all the songs from "Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory" done eventually... Well... maybe) This one was actually amazingly easy to filk, since there were so many lines I could use from the original song in this version. This one is sung by Hermione Granger to the House Elves at Hogwarts. Enjoy Iggy McSnurd Total Liberation Hermione Granger: [Spoken to the House Elves at Hogwarts] Stop your work Wear this cap You'll be freed [Sung] Come with me And you'll be Free and feeling Total liberation Take this sock And you'll see To your own liberation We'll begin Learning to spin Fresh wool in- To yarn for my creations What I'll knit Will defy Descriptions If you want to view paradise Simply step outside and view it Anything you want to, do it Want to free yourselves? There's nothing To it There is no Life I know To compare with Total liberation Living there You'll be free If you truly wish to be If you want to view paradise Simply step outside and view it Anything you want to, do it Want to free yourselves? There's nothing To it There is no Life I know To compare with Total liberation Living there You'll be free If you truly Wish to be From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Mon Dec 1 19:11:47 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 13:11:47 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] FILK - Total Liberation In-Reply-To: <000101c3b83d$ea0703f0$f535d843@Einstein> Message-ID: <000701c3b83e$fbb0b190$f535d843@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 86243 Iggy here: *sigh* I forgot to mention that "Total Liberation" is sung to the tune of "Pure Imagination" from Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory." *grimaces and whaps himself on the head with a rubber turnip for his mistake* Iggy McSnurd From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Mon Dec 1 19:12:40 2003 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 19:12:40 -0000 Subject: Harry's ideal ending & my idea of a horrible ending In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86244 Diana wrote: > It occured to me that the ideal ending to book seven from Harry's > point of view might just be to be a normal teenage wizard. Depending on when Voldemort is defeated, Harry might not have too much time left as a "teenager". I do want Harry to live through his confrontation with Voldemort and have a nice happy, normal adult wizard life. > He might > not be an auror, or headmaster or famous Quiddith player. He might > be quite happy being just Harry, with no prophecy hanging over his > head anymore, no more Voldemort nightmares, no more weight of the > world on his shoulders. I'd love to see him as an auror since he has both expressed interest in being an auror and because he obviously has talents that lean toward that area not least of which is that he's a powerful wizard. Not many fifth (third?) year students can make a corporeal patronus. Once Voldemort's gone that will be a weight off Harry's shoulders and I for one am looking forward to that. I want to see Harry have a normal semi-exciting life. Even with Voldemort out of the picture everything will not be quiet. Harry said, "trouble finds me" and I personally don't think trouble will stop finding him just cause Voldemort's gone. Nature abhors a vacuum. Once Voldemort is gone a new dark wizard/threat will come up. I'm doing this from memory, but didn't Dumbledore defeat Grindewald in the early 1940's and about that same time wasn't a teenage Tom Riddle releasing the monster from the CoS? One threat to the WW was going down while another was rising to power. The wizarding world has always had dark wizards and it's also always had good wizards to stand up to them. "Constant Vigilance" will be needed. The WW will need aurors like Harry. > And no more having to live with the Dursleys! He wouldn't need > their protection anymore so he could go where he liked. As soon as Voldemort's gone, I want them out of Harry's life. (Actually, I want Harry to come back and gloat about his new wonderful, exciting life.) However, toward the end of the summer before his seventh year, he'll be able to do magic. I am so looking forward to that August. The Dursleys are evil + Harry has a temper = Something many HP fans have been looking forward to for a long time. > I could see Harry dating Ginny by the end of the series, or > possibly even still looking for the right girl. Ron and Hermione > could be seriously dating, with Harry happy as can be about them > finally getting together. I am somewhat rooting for Harry/Ginny, but I'm not a big shipper. I think there's a whole WW full of young women out there who'd love to date the "Boy who lived". I know Harry hates the whole "famous Harry Potter" thing, however I think that as he gets older he'll simply except it and hope that some people see past his "famous" persona. Seeing as some people already have, I don't see this as a big problem. Harry will have more witches than he can wave a wand at interested in him. So, I am hesitant to hazard a guess at who he'll end up with. Yolanda From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Mon Dec 1 19:31:59 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 19:31:59 -0000 Subject: Evans/Petunia/ Grandpa Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86245 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says Probably not in canon (I can't get over my disappointment in JKR's Squib!Figg -- fanfic versions of her were so much more interesting), but until Book 6 or 7, I like your theory. My own theory is that Tom Riddle is heir of Sytherin through his father and not his mother (long story -- see my fanfic when I get around to it) and that Harry is Sytherin through Lily, the Evanses being a squib offshoot of Slytherin and Lily the first witch in a long time (that's why they are proud, as opposed to bewildered or angry). --JDR From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net Mon Dec 1 20:11:26 2003 From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 20:11:26 -0000 Subject: Leaving Harry unprotected Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86246 At the end of OOTP, the members of the Order let Harry go off with the Dursleys unprotected. Earlier in the book, JKR makes a big deal about people watching over Harry and always having an elaborate guard any time he goes anywhere -- from Privet Drive to Grimmauld Place and later movements anywhere. But after warning Vernon to be nice to Harry, the Order just lets him go without anyone to protect him. Is he safe anytime he's around Petunia (because of that blood charm)? But if so, why have Figg or anyone watching over him at Privet Drive? Does it mean that LV can't kill Petunia (and so Harry is safe)? If so, why? Aren't they leaving Harry open to attack, especially since LV may no longer be lying so low now that everyone knows he's back? I'm bewildered as always. Boris the Bewildered From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Mon Dec 1 20:43:47 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 20:43:47 -0000 Subject: Is Snape confident? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86247 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nora Renka" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" > wrote: > > theory explaining the freakout in the Shrieking Shack> > Nora: > I appreciate this discussion, even though it's a little...what the > heck, a LOT...speculative for me. I'm an exegete, not a speculator, > and LOLLIPOPS has never had a great deal of appeal to me, but what > the hell, I could be wrong. :) June: But the speculation is what floats me boat!! I'll not lose interest in Snape when all his truths are known, but I'll not obssess anymore. A good deal of fun will be lost when his character is graven in granite. > Nora: > But that actually doesn't address the second paragraph; the more > general assertion that Snape isn't the type to deal well with being > challenged. Try as I might, I can't envision him doing well in a > classroom where the kids actually get to ask questions and work > through ideas in a more substantial way. He seems to enjoy making > things personal unnecessarily. June: Yeah, sure he wouldn't sit well in the British state school system today, where kids sit around tables and work in groups. Snape and Hogwarts belong to an older version of UK education where kids sit in rows of desks facing the teacher and listening to the teacher teach. The sort of education system that I grew up in. Essentially, argument only happened in the sixth form (and then under carefully controlled situations!) - that's age 17 and 18. Even in those years, it was largely listen while teacher tells you. Now I'm not necessarily supporting this as a method of teaching because it involves a good deal of learning by rote, and not by thinking, it was however the system I learned under. I've known a good deal of teachers like Snape. Come to think of it, we had a chemistry teacher v. like him - even down to the physical attributes. Incidentally, under that teacher I did very well in sciences, it was only later under different teaching that my science grades slipped and I became a liberal arts nerd (make of that what you will). Teachers like that were rather scary, NEVER had disciplinary problems because kids were far to scared to try anything. There was no "namby-pamby" mentoring or counselling in those days either. Now that was all very well for the brighter kids (of whom I was one) but obviously dimmer kids didn't exactly thrive under such treatment. Seminar type argument belonged exclusively to University teaching at that time. And I got to know some rather Snapey type Professors at Uni too. Debate or no debate, they could tear you to shreds if you were unprepared. > Nora: > If he's so confident, so *right* that he's punishing the evil Sirius > responsible for Lily's death, he can't entertain any ideas to the > contrary? I can possibly buy that, but it seems to me that you get > either 1) not-confident doesn't want to try to work through things in > detail Snape or 2) rabidly emotional not-thinking hothead Snape. > Don't forget those utterly charming threats made to Lupin, > too...there's a case of 'I've suspected you from the start, and > you're here, so what the hell, you MUST be guilty too!' June: Once again, the mistake is to apply non-emotional ideas to the text book neurotic that Snape may well be. He is NOT Lenin. He was messed up fairly systematically through childhood and adolescence and I think that it now canon since OOP. Confidence does not preclude emotional reaction to issues. I reiterate, he had very good reason to believe Sirius guilty in the affair of the Potters' deaths,as did the entire Wizarding World. So why should he stop to consider an alternative ending to that question? Lupin is also (from an outside point of view) acting in a way that is highly suspect - and Snape has pretty good reason not to like any member of that cosy little gang MWPP. See the Pensieve scene if the details of what happened in the Prank don't convince. Why should he spend even a moment listening to any apology about Sirius Black's behaviour - in his place I wouldn't. Nora: >> Well, yes; or Snape can't handle the idea that, god forbid, he might > possibly be WRONG about Black, and needs to get the evidence out of > the way...or, even nastier, Snape knows that there's something wrong > here and thus *really* wants to get the evidence out of the way... > *grin* I'm frustrated that we've found out no more about the > dynamics of that night. The DISHWASHER (in its earlier incarnations) > has always been an oddly attractive explanation, if somewhat tortuous. June: He's not looking for "evidence" to be got out of the way because he's not being that cold and calculating. He's ballistic with rage. He just wants Sirius Black to get his just deserts. > > -Nora welcomes any off-list response as well, and is always happy to > get her mind off of doing Real Work (any opera fans out there?) June: Boris Godunov, Tristan and Isolde, The Ring, Tannhauser, Tosca, Nabucco, Aida, Carmen, Rigoletto... to name but a few;-) From blackgold101 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 1 21:31:18 2003 From: blackgold101 at yahoo.com (Marci) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 21:31:18 -0000 Subject: Leaving Harry unprotected In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86248 "Robert Jones" wrote: > At the end of OOTP, the members of the Order let Harry go off with > the Dursleys unprotected. Earlier in the book, JKR makes a big deal > about people watching over Harry and always having an elaborate > guard any time he goes anywhere -- from Privet Drive to Grimmauld > Place and later movements anywhere. But after warning Vernon to be > nice to Harry, the Order just lets him go without anyone to protect > him. Is he safe anytime he's around Petunia (because of that blood > charm)? But if so, why have Figg or anyone watching over him at > Privet Drive? Does it mean that LV can't kill Petunia (and so Harry > is safe)? If so, why? Aren't they leaving Harry open to attack, > especially since LV may no longer be lying so low now that everyone > knows he's back? I'm bewildered as always. > > Boris the Bewildered Perhaps it has to do with Harry heading home, toward/with his protection, rather than away from it. Not only that, but just because Harry walked away with the Dursleys doesn't mean that the Guard did not follow them. Marci From hieya at hotmail.com Mon Dec 1 21:33:13 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 21:33:13 -0000 Subject: Some Discrepancies Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86249 In the first book, when Harry looks into the Mirror of Erised and sees his family, he sees his parents and other ancestors, including "other pairs of green eyes" like his own. A few lines later, JKR writes that the *Potters* waved at Harry out of the mirror. The green eyes are a connection between Harry and his mother, and some of the people in the mirror are clearly members of the Evans family, so why don't the words reflect that? Did JKR have a reason for not telling us Harry's mother's maiden name until the fifth year? Sirius's mother tells people to get out of the house of her fathers. We know that #12 Grimmauld Pl is "the noble and most ancient house of Black". So why does Sirius have his mother's maiden name? I know there is a lot of in-breeding in the WW, but still, why was Sirius raised in the house of his mother's ancestors? The Blacks seem like a traditional family, and in traditional cultures, women will take their husband's name, and live with the husband and his family. So, even if Ms. Black married a Mr. Black (thereby keeping her own name), why did she continue to live in her family's home? The only explanation I can think of is that the Blacks all lived together as an extended family. But if that was the case, why do they all live separately now? Why didn't Lucius move in when he married Narcissa Black? The house was abandoned for years before the Order arrived. Surely Narcissa wouldn't have abandoned the old family manor she had grown up in? greatlit2003 From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Dec 1 21:43:42 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 21:43:42 -0000 Subject: Harry's ideal ending & my idea of a horrible ending In-Reply-To: <20031201131805.12048.qmail@web40203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86250 ulie: > Are you sure it's one of Harry's friends who becomes a > teacher? It seems to me that that hint that one of the > students will end up a teacher has already been > fulfilled, with the DA. > > Julie, a new member who waves a merry gretting to everyone Welcome, Julie! JKR said Harry wouldn't become a teacher *at Hogwarts* which I find intriguing, since I think he will have to sacrifice his powers to defeat Voldemort. And this will be a tragic loss for the readers, who naturally want more Harry stories, but not for Harry, who will understand that it is friendship and bravery that make life worthwhile, not magic. So I think he will be a teacher in the Muggle world, have the ordinary life he's always wanted, and marry Ginny, of course, who may have to go into hiding too if she still harbors some of Voldemort inside her. Of course when the first of their children turns eleven... Pippin stopping before this becomes fan fic From helen at odegard.com Mon Dec 1 22:00:13 2003 From: helen at odegard.com (Helen R. Granberry) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 14:00:13 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New Clues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000701c3b856$7fb2d330$6401a8c0@helenw1> No: HPFGUIDX 86251 I recently picked up this book... and, well, color me unimpressed. I have the first book too -- the big one that covers PS/SS through GoF, and I think the main strength of these books is in describing JKR's clue patterns. However, I agree that they don't really pick up on anything particularly earth shattering that those of us who are theory nuts wouldn't pick up on in a few reads through the books. I think the books are useful for people who don't think the way a lot of here on HP4GU do, but want to pick out clues for themselves. If you are looking for exciting revelations... it is a waste of time. My biggest complaint about the new book is that it reveals NOTHING. It merely hints at JKR's hints and I think they get some things wrong as well as put importance on thing that, well, aren't so important (like every single number between 1 and 14 is important, er, right). They put a lot of emphasis on running bits, and while some of these are great, I think at times they are really, really reaching. They also don't put forth anything on why these running bits might be important. Yes, there is a lot of talk about socks and kings and chess. I think that is important and I think I know *why* it is important, but if Galdrial Waters and Co. have an idea about what it might mean, they sure aren't revealing it in their book. They put this one out, but are planning to put out another one in a year. My advice... wait for the next one, or at least thumb through this one in the book store before buying (if you can find it, that is, the stores around here seem to be mostly sold out of it -- I think I got the last copy in San Diego). They did pick up on a few things that not many people had, but they merely hinted at them. They got something in the first chapter that only one other person I know picked up on. Their 'big theory' -- James is really Remus -- is, well, laughable. There just really isn't any canon evidence for this -- it seems to rest on dialogue from Lupin that can easily be explained by the fact that Remus and James were very close friends. Now, I believe some pretty far out seeming theories myself, but there just really isn't anything in canon that makes this likely or even all that believable. JKR is pretty adamant about dead people being really dead. James and Lily are D-E-A-D. Anyway... bottom line, don't buy this book expecting revelations. There are none. They speak in hints, and sometimes, their hints are even more confusing than JKR's. I don't think this book is even for the 'average' fan because their hinting at hints must be exceedingly frustrating for someone who isn't a Harry Potter theory nut already. Their first book is better as it gives summaries of every single chapter of books 1-4 and it does an excellent job of pointing out how JKR lays evidence and plants clues, but if you are on this list... you are probably quite familiar with picking up on those things already. Helen From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 1 22:07:37 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 22:07:37 -0000 Subject: Bang! You're Dead. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86252 > Carol: You still haven't answered Geoff's argument > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/85985 regarding > the canonical evidence against having good guys use the unforgiveable > curses. Surely they are unforgiveable and illegal for a reason, and, > if so, JKR will need to provide some alternative to having Harry > perform a curse that would send him to Azkaban. I don't think she > believes that "all's fair in love and war" and that she will put > herself in the tricky situation of having defined the rules and then > decided to change them. She has clearly established a distinction > between good and evil in the WW and it seems to me that she needs to > maintain it. Geoff's quotations illustrate that distinction quite > clearly, as do certain statements by Dumbledore that I will hunt up if > necessary when I have more time. JKR has said in an interview that > Dumbledore is "the epitome of goodness," > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/0700-cbc- > solomon.htm > which I hope is sufficient evidence that his assertions matter in > this discussion. > > > > Kneasy: > Hmm. So by your reading of the canon Harry should start volume 6 > in Azkaban. He has used an unforgivable curse, hasn't he? Carol again: No, because he didn't succeed in using it, even though he tried. I still think Bellatrix is right that he wasn't sufficiently cruel to make the spell work. As I see it, the spells are unforgiveable because they are evil--and only a person with a great deal of hatred and anger in his heart (or alternatively a cold indifference like Bellatrix's or Voldemort's) can work them. In GoF, Harry can't bring himself to use Avada Kedavra against Sirius, despite his rage, or against Peter Pettigrew, despite his cold contempt. He also persuades Lupin and Sirius not to use it, not to become killers. He knows, through reason or instinct, that they would be contaminating themselves by doing so. > > It's also canon that unforgivable curses were used by Aurors in old Barty's > day. Not a very popular character, I'll agree, but he was organising the > fight for the survival of a free WW. The canon reads as if only Aurors were > permitted to use the curses, though I doubt if Barty would have made a > fuss if one were used in self defence. Carol: Notice that Mad Eye Moody did NOT use them (except possibly against Rosier in self-defence after hed had lost a piece of his nose), and that Dumbledore approves of that choice. There were other ways to bring the DEs to justice. As for Old Barty, he's not exactly the person to use as a moral example, is he? Sent his own son to Azkaban without a trial (BTW, I don't doubt that Barty Jr. was guilty, but that guilt should have been proven in a court at which someone else was presiding) and then sneaked him out, using an Imperius curse for what he thought was a justifiable reason only to have the same curse used against him by his son. Maybe turn about is fair play, but as far as I can see, both of them belonged in Azkaban. > The majority of the WW weren't comfortable with it, but accepted that it > was the only effective way to fight back. Until Godrics Hollow Voldy was > *winning*. > Note also that Moody was supposed to be the star Auror. Is he evil or > stricken with a conscience that makes him run around chanting "Mea culpa?" Carol: The real Moody was authorized to use them for the same reason that policemen are allowed to carry guns--to protect others and bring otherwise uncontrollabe criminals to judgment. He did *not* use the unforgiveable curses except in self-defense, which is the point of my previous paragraph. (I think the authorization itself was wrong, but that's Crouch's culpa, not Moody's.) Imposter!Moody (who of course has no conscience whatever) uses all three unforgiveable curses on spiders and the Imperius curse on his students, the second hint that he's evil (the first is turning Draco into a ferret). (Note his indifference not only to the suffering of the spiders but to the psychological pain he was inflicting on Neville.) Imposter!Moody claims that he has Dumbledore's permission to do demonstrate the curses and no one questions him, but I think this statement was a lie given Dumbledore's view of the curses and McGonagall's earlier warning to Moody that teachers were not allowed to perform transfiguration on students (GoF, 206 Am. ed.). If teachers can't perform transfiguration on students, then certainly they can't perfom an illegal curse on them, either. Also, Ron asks Harry, "Wouldn't Moody and Dumbledore be in trouble with the Ministry if they knew we'd seen the curses?" (GoF 220 Am. Ed.) The answer is obviously yes, assuming that Dumbledore really did give Moody permission, but nothing happens because no one reveals the secret. Harry assumes that Dumbledore is simply doing things "his way" as usual, but I think it's a case of Imposter!Moody presenting a plausible lie that Harry and the other students want to believe. And Imposter!Moody himself says that the curses he's about to demonstrate are those "most heavily punished by wizarding law" (212). Why would they be punished if their use were justifiable by anyone other than aurors, the policemen of WW? The real Moody, in contrast, tracked down Karkaroff and others turned them in without killing them. Rosier was apparently killed in a wizard's duel with Moody, who would have been authorized to AK him in self-defense, presumably after Rosier himself had cast an illegal spell. > No. It's also canon that the old Order had other Aurors as members. Didn't > seem to bother Dumbledore much, so far as I can see. As the epitome of > goodness you would expect him to take an immovable moral stand, but I > can't find any evidence of this. Moody is mentioned as one of his oldest > friends, not an untouchable pariah who participated in Dark Magic. > > Dumbledore 'the epitome of goodness' is a very interesting concept. > I agree, but selectively. Then I can have it both ways. Carol again: I like that little admission. Nice touch. :-) As for Dumbledore not taking an immovable moral stand, I suppose he feels that he needs to make compromises when Hogwarts and the WW are in danger. I'll have to think about that some more and come up with more quotes. > Carol: > I never said that > Voldemort would fight fairly, only that Harry should. The moment > Voldemort raises a wand or other weapon against him or a friend, Harry > has the right and responsibility to fight defensively. That's what > DADA is for; Hogwarts, unlike Durmstrang, does not teach the Dark Arts > themselves, only *defense* against them. So Harry must find a way to > destroy Voldemort without resorting to Dark weapons, including > unforgiveable curses, himself. I have never said that he should take > pity on Voldemort, much less love his enemy. I have only said that he > must not muddy the distinction between good (Dumbledore) and evil > (Voldemort) that JKR herself has established. > > > Kneasy: > Fine. But doesn't canon state that there is no defence against an AK? > No blocking it, no counter-curse. Carol again: But Harry DID block it, effortlessly, as an infant of fifteen months, much as he instinctively blocked Snape's attempt to read his most private thoughts with a shield charm. Maybe what is true for other wizards isn't true for him because he's Voldemort's equal. Kneasy: > I'm pleased that you have no objection to Voldy being smeared across > the landscape; just the method used causes you concern. Why? Dead is > dead. Carol again: No. Dead isn't dead and killing isn't killing. There's self-defense and there's murder. There are legitimate and illegitimate methods. Unless Harry is made an honorary auror exempt from the laws of the WW or the law is changed in time of war, he should not break it. And the moral law still applies: the curses are unforgiveable. Why should he be forgiven for using them if no one else (except an auror when Crouch was in charge) can be forgiven for using one? Kneasy: Harry has already stepped across the line with a Crucio! Can he > erase that from canon? Carol: Yes, because it didn't succeed. It was not only a failed tactic but a moral mistake and I'm sure Dumbledore will make that quite clear to him in future books. JKR has already made it clear that it would have been wrong to murder Peter Pettigrew, at least in his human form (Padfoot and Crookshanks eating him might be another matter). If so, it's equally wrong to Crucio Bellatrix, however much she deserves a taste of her own medicine. (Let Voldemort do it.) Kneasy: Or will his teenage bloody-mindedness continue > or even increase? Carol: I certainly hope not, which is why I find such comfort in his refusal to kill PP in GoF. Snape is right; Harry needs to control his passions, especially his anger, or Voldemort will use them against him. I'm looking forward to seeing him mature in the next two books, and getting a grip on his anger and his hero/martyr complex ("I did it! They didn't!") is the crucial first step. He can't emulate Sirius's recklessness. He has to know what he's doing and be in control. And control, to me, means finding the necessary *defenses* against the Dark Arts, not using them himself. Harry has done the "impossible" before, as a baby. I think that as a full-fledged wizard of seventeen in Book 7, he'll do the same thing. Maybe it won't be a defense against AK; maybe it will be a way of overcoming Voldemort's immortality (or whatever you choose to call his current deathless state). Kneasy: DD may be the epitome of goodness, but is Harry? > Doesn't look like he is; the way he's written he's a flawed personality. > Harry has Voldy attributes - that is canon. Maybe there will be more of > Voldy in Harry than you will find comfortable. Be prepared! Carol: I agree that Harry (like everyone else in the book) has some serious character flaws--partly the consequence of his age and background, partly the result of the spell that backfired, partly just human nature. The point, I think, is that he must overcome those flaws (along with many other obstacles) before he can bring down Voldemort. > Carol: > You may be right about Bellatrix's comments being a red herring, but I > don't think so. She and Voldemort appear to enjoy inflicting pain and > death. If, indeed, that feeling is required to make the curses > effective, then the reason they're "unforgiveable" is clear. They can > be cast only by someone who is already cruel and well on his or her > way to becoming irreversibly evil. > > > > Kneasy: > Yes, Bella and her squeeze do enjoy inflicting pain. Is that relevant > to everyone else? Did the Aurors empowered by Crouch enjoy it? Did > they all irrevocably become Dark Magicians with no redeeming features? > I suspect that generalising from extreme examples could be misleading. > Moody and his confederates are irreversibly evil by that argument and I > can see no evidence for it. Carol again: I can see your point here and I've revised my theory (above) to include cold indifference regarding the AK. But the other two, especially Crucio, are probably never justified in JKR's view. There are plenty of other spells available to hinder an opponent, notably shield charms, Expelliarmus and Stubefy (correctly pronounced). I wouldn't mind seeing Harry hit LV with a combination of Expelliarmus and Tarantellegra (if Harry's wand will work against its brother). But Crucio is another matter altogether. Carol P.S. Has anyone hunted up all the references in the books to the Unforgiveable Curses? Who's used them and in what circumstances and why they're unforgiveable? That's what I really need to explore before I take this discussion any further. C. From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Dec 1 22:26:54 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 22:26:54 -0000 Subject: Hagrid and Dudley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86253 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: Meri: > Hagrid is sometimes given special permission from Dumbledore to > perform magic under extreme circumstances, like bewitching the boat > to row itself back from the Hut on the Rock, flying himslef out to > the Hut, and doing other general things to ensure that Harry got his > letter. (I can't quote cannon at the moment, I don't have my book at > school with me.) Geoff: Relevant canon - "'Be grateful if yeh didn't mention that (ie the tail) ter anyone at Hogwarts,' he said, 'I'm - er - not supposed ter do magic, strictly speakin'. I was allowed to ter do a bit ter follow yeh an' get yer letters to yeh an' stuff - one o' the reasons I was so keen ter take on the job'" (PS p.48 UK edition) From gingernewt at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 1 22:06:18 2003 From: gingernewt at yahoo.co.uk (gingernewt) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 22:06:18 -0000 Subject: Leaving Harry unprotected Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86254 Hi ... I haven't posted before, so here goes ... Boris the Bewildered: > Is he safe anytime he's around Petunia > (because of that blood charm)? Jules replies: I think that Harry is safe in Privet Drive - remember Dumbledore's words in OOTP - "as long as you can still call it home, whilst you are there he (Voldemort) cannot hurt you". So Petunia is bound by her pact; her sister is dead, murdered by Voldemort, but the bond of blood means that she must keep her sister's child safe. Jules From molly_weasley_wannabe at yahoo.com Mon Dec 1 22:50:04 2003 From: molly_weasley_wannabe at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 14:50:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Life Debt Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031201225004.55185.qmail@web11602.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86255 I'll attempt to have this not be a one liner, but do we know what happens if someone does not repay a life debt? Snape had a life debt to James;James died without it being repayed and we don't see any repercussions for that. What would the point of a life debt be if there is no consequence for not repaying it? Any thoughts? ~Kathryn ===== "Difference of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open.-Dumbledore,GoF "It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live, remember that."-Dumbledore-SS Ron: "Well, I had one that I was playing Quidditch the other night...what d'you reckon that means? Harry:"Probably that you're going to be eaten by a giant marshmallow or something." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ From meriaugust at yahoo.com Mon Dec 1 23:02:28 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 23:02:28 -0000 Subject: Some Discrepancies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86256 "greatlit2003" wrote: > In the first book, when Harry looks into the Mirror of Erised and > sees his family, he sees his parents and other ancestors, > including "other pairs of green eyes" like his own. A few lines > later, JKR writes that the *Potters* waved at Harry out of the > mirror. The green eyes are a connection between Harry and his > mother, and some of the people in the mirror are clearly members of > the Evans family, so why don't the words reflect that? Did JKR have > a reason for not telling us Harry's mother's maiden name until the > fifth year? Meri here: I think what we have to remember here is that we see the entire Mirror of Erised chapter from Harry's perspective: I don't have my copy of SS with me right now (it's out on loan) but I'm pretty sure that Harry doesn't know that his eyes come from his mother's side of the family yet. It's possible that Hagrid mentions something like 'you look like your dad but you have your mother's eyes' in the Hut on the Rock, but I can't quite remember. I do know, however, that DD says this to Harry when he is in the hospital wing at the end of the book. Also, since Harry doesn't know his mother's maiden name, it's probably safe to assume that he is merely generalizing when he refers to "the Potters", even if he is seeing the late, lamented members of the Evans clan. And as to why JKR didn't tell us what Lily's maiden name was until book 5, I can't really speculate. I'm sure she has some grand reasoning behind it, though we did know it was Evans before hand, I think she revealed it in a pre-OotP interview. greatlit2003 also asks: > Sirius's mother tells people to get out of the house of her fathers. > We know that #12 Grimmauld Pl is "the noble and most ancient house > of Black". So why does Sirius have his mother's maiden name? I know > there is a lot of in-breeding in the WW, but still, why was Sirius > raised in the house of his mother's ancestors? The Blacks seem like > a traditional family, and in traditional cultures, women will take > their husband's name, and live with the husband and his family. So, > even if Ms. Black married a Mr. Black (thereby keeping her own > name), why did she continue to live in her family's home? The only > explanation I can think of is that the Blacks all lived together as > an extended family. But if that was the case, why do they all live > separately now? Why didn't Lucius move in when he married Narcissa > Black? The house was abandoned for years before the Order arrived. > Surely Narcissa wouldn't have abandoned the old family manor she had > grown up in? Meri again: I think that because the WW is so traditional that Mrs. Black, who had a different maiden name, feels (felt?) herself a member of her husband's family. Because the pure-blooded WW is so inbred, it is entirely possible that she and her husband (Sirius' dad) were related in some way before marriage. And as to why Narcissa didn't move into the old Black homestead, she is only a cousin to Sirius (as is Bellatrix and Andromeda, Tonks' mother) and she herslef married into a pure-blood family with its own noble manor house, where she presumably became a full member of the Malfoy family by marriage. There is no cannon to support that anyone grew up in 12 Grimmauld Place besides Sirius and Regelus Black, and the house was presumably abandoned because there were no more pure Black sons to move in. And, here's a thought that's totally OT, but can a portrait bewitch itself to say anything it wants? Perhaps for simplicity's sake, Mrs. Black shortened the message: after all, "Defliers of my husband's father's house!" doesn't quite have the same bite, does it? Meri From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 1 23:07:44 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 23:07:44 -0000 Subject: Evans/Petunia/ Grandpa Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86257 "ghinghapuss" wrote: Tom Riddle could and did cover up his true parentage for his own advantage. We know he did it to create a new identity for himself as Lord Voldemort. Perhaps he also did it to amass a muggle fortune as well. What we know about him was he was an orphan living in an orphanage who then went to Hogwarts. When he left school, it is an almost certainty he went to his fathers house and killed is Father, stepmother and a teenage boy who I believe was their son, the muggle Tom Riddle. "Diana_Sirius_fan" wrote: I think when young Tom Riddle (aka Voldemort) went to the Riddle house he killed his grandfather, his grandmother and Tom Riddle sr., not his father, step-mother and ??brother. Tom wrote: > I agree, and I think that's what is wrong at the grave yard. The > bones were his grandfather, not his father. Maybe DD was smart > enough to move his father's bones after Voldemort lost his powers.... Diana is right. He killed his father and his grandparents, "elderly Mr. and Mrs. Riddle . . . and their grown-up son, Tom" (GoF 2, Am. ed.). He himself was the teenage boy spotted by the gardener, Frank Bryce, who protested his innocence and insisted that "the only person he had seen near the house on the day of the Riddles' deaths had been a teenage boy, a stranger, dark-haired and pale" (GoF 3), our young TR, who had either just committed or was about to commit his second through fourth murders at the age of seventeen. The bones were his father's, as the name Tom Riddle on the gravestone indicates (GoF 638). (No doubt the birth and death years were there, too, so that even if the grandfather had also been named Tom, Voldemort would not have mistaken one grave for the other.) Otherwise, the incantation "Bone of the father, unknowingly given, You will renew your son!" (GoF 641) would not have worked--not to mention that Voldemort would not have completely achieved his vengeance against his hated muggle father. As for taking over their fortune, he could not have done so by taking on his father's identity and it would have been dangerous to reveal his identity as heir to that fortune (he may well have been disinherited anyway) without becoming a primary suspect (he had a lot more motive than Frank Bryce). Possibly he bought the house later and posed as the absentee muggle owner, but I doubt it. From what we know he first went back to Hogwarts for his seventh year and became Head Boy (sickening thought) then disappeared to learn as much as he could about dark magic, transformation, and immortality. When he resurfaced, it was not in a form that could possibly be mistaken for a muggle. Carol From snapesmate at hotmail.com Mon Dec 1 23:28:59 2003 From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 23:28:59 -0000 Subject: Leaving Harry unprotected In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86258 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, > "Robert Jones" wrote: > > At the end of OOTP, the members of the Order let Harry go off with > > the Dursleys unprotected. Earlier in the book, JKR makes a big > deal about people watching over Harry and always having an elaborate guard any time he goes anywhere -- from Privet Drive to Grimmauld Place and later movements anywhere. But after warning Vernon to be nice to Harry, the Order just lets him go without anyone to protect him. Is he safe anytime he's around Petunia (because of that blood charm)? . > > Boris the Bewildered I assumed all the "guard" hooplah was due to the prophesy orb at the MoM. At the start of OotP the Order knew Voldemort wanted that crystal orb and that he or Harry were the only two people who could lift it. At the end of OotP the "prophesy orb" had been destroyed. I do not think it had/has anything to do with Petunia/Lily's "blood", especially since when Voldemort had been "restored" in the graveyard, he WAS able to physically touch Harry and was no longer bothered by Lily's "old magic" type protection. Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice guy! From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 1 23:46:38 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 23:46:38 -0000 Subject: Is Snape confident? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86260 > > Nora wrote: > > But that actually doesn't address the second paragraph; the more > > general assertion that Snape isn't the type to deal well with > being > > challenged. Try as I might, I can't envision him doing well in a > > classroom where the kids actually get to ask questions and work > > through ideas in a more substantial way. He seems to enjoy making > > things personal unnecessarily. > > June wrote: > Yeah, sure he wouldn't sit well in the British state school system > today, where kids sit around tables and work in groups. Snape and > Hogwarts belong to an older version of UK education where kids sit > in rows of desks facing the teacher and listening to the teacher > teach. The sort of education system that I grew up in. > Essentially, argument only happened in the sixth form (and then > under carefully controlled situations!) - that's age 17 and 18. Carol: I'm wondering what kind of argument students could present in a potions class, in which the chief order of business seems to be following step by step directions and turning in the best potion you're capable of producing at the end of the session. I can just see Hermione or anyone else suggesting a substitute ingredient or arguing that there's no practical application for a shrinking potion and arguing that they should do a hair-straightening potion instead. Now if they had a course in witch/wizard literature, they could defend their own interpretations. But I don't see much room for argument or discussion in any magic-based class, whether its potions or charms or transfiguration. The theory of potions, anybody? June wrote: > Seminar type argument belonged exclusively to University teaching at > that time. And I got to know some rather Snapey type Professors at > Uni too. Debate or no debate, they could tear you to shreds if you > were unprepared. Carol: Assuming that it's possible to debate potions theory, I imagine that Snape, with his vast knowledge and contempt for "dunderheads," would do exactly that. BTW, June, I agree with all your Snape-related points but at the moment have almost nothing to add, so I regretfully snipped them. Great assessment of his behavior in the Shrieking Shack scene, in which in addition to all his personal resentment of Sirius, he honestly believes him to be a murderer. I think that a person like Snape, who has to keep so much anger under control so much of the time, would indeed erupt in fury under such circumstances. Also, as someone else mentioned, it's commendable that he put the unconscious Sirius on a stretcher rather than bobbing him around so that his head hit the ceiling as Sirius did with him. I suppose he thought he had everything under control so he was his normal self at that moment. Carol From sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 1 23:39:39 2003 From: sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com (sofdog_2000) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 23:39:39 -0000 Subject: Leaving Harry unprotected In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86261 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snapesmate" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, > "Robert Jones" > wrote: > > > At the end of OOTP, the members of the Order let Harry go off > with > > > the Dursleys unprotected. Earlier in the book, JKR makes a big > > deal about people watching over Harry and always having an > elaborate guard any time he goes anywhere -- from Privet Drive to > Grimmauld Place and later movements anywhere. But after warning > Vernon to be nice to Harry, the Order just lets him go without anyone > to protect him. Is he safe anytime he's around Petunia (because of > that blood charm)? . > > > Boris the Bewildered > > I assumed all the "guard" hooplah was due to the prophesy orb at the > MoM. At the start of OotP the Order knew Voldemort wanted that > crystal orb and that he or Harry were the only two people who could > lift it. At the end of OotP the "prophesy orb" had been destroyed. I > do not think it had/has anything to do with Petunia/Lily's "blood", > especially since when Voldemort had been "restored" in the graveyard, > he WAS able to physically touch Harry and was no longer bothered by > Lily's "old magic" type protection. Sof: You're mixing up two different charms here. Lily's protection is what resides within Harry. (And you're right, Voldemort does have that same protection. It's interesting that when he touches Harry, it is Harry who is hurt by the contact.) However, the blood charm that protects Harry in Petunia's care is a separate spell which Dumbledore chose because of the strength of Lily's sacrifice. Remember, the Avada Kedavra is an unblockable curse. The countercharm cast by Lily's death is the only known instance of the AK being thwarted. Voldemort himself says in Goblet of Fire that he still can't touch Harry in the muggle world because of the second charm. I thought the initial protection was due to the mysterious Dementor attack in Little Whinging. No one knew what prompted the Dementors to come after Harry so they had to be careful. There's no coming back from that Kiss. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 1 23:57:40 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 23:57:40 -0000 Subject: Leaving Harry unprotected In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86262 "Robert Jones" wrote: > > > At the end of OOTP, the members of the Order let Harry go off > with > > > the Dursleys unprotected. Earlier in the book, JKR makes a big > > deal about people watching over Harry and always having an > elaborate guard any time he goes anywhere -- from Privet Drive to > Grimmauld Place and later movements anywhere. But after warning > Vernon to be nice to Harry, the Order just lets him go without anyone > to protect him. Is he safe anytime he's around Petunia (because of > that blood charm)? . > > > Boris the Bewildered > > I assumed all the "guard" hooplah was due to the prophesy orb at the > MoM. At the start of OotP the Order knew Voldemort wanted that > crystal orb and that he or Harry were the only two people who could > lift it. At the end of OotP the "prophesy orb" had been destroyed. I > do not think it had/has anything to do with Petunia/Lily's "blood", > especially since when Voldemort had been "restored" in the graveyard, > he WAS able to physically touch Harry and was no longer bothered by > Lily's "old magic" type protection. > > Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice > guy! Actually, it seems pretty clear that Petunia's "blood" is still important and that it's not safe yet for him to leave her home yet. He still has to spend at least part of the summer there. Being able to touch Harry without being burned would not end the protection of the spell that was put on him as a baby, would it? As for the Dursleys themselves, they have no way of knowing that Harry's godfather is dead and he can probably still use the threat of Sirius's vengeance as protection if he doesn't bluff too often. Once he's outdoors, though, he would certainly need some form of protection from Dementors or whatever other evil force Voldemort would send his way. I imagine that Mrs. Figg and her cats will still be keeping theri eyes open, and there may be other forms of protection as well. Carol From lovefromhermione at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 00:11:38 2003 From: lovefromhermione at yahoo.com (lovefromhermione at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 16:11:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bang! You're Dead. (was:Voldemorts animus...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031202001138.91071.qmail@web40205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86263 Kneazy: Note also that Moody was supposed to be the star Auror. Is he evil or stricken with a conscience that makes him run around chanting "Mea culpa?" No. It's also canon that the old Order had other Aurors as members. Didn't seem to bother Dumbledore much, so far as I can see. As the epitome of goodness you would expect him to take an immovable moral stand, but I can't find any evidence of this. Moody is mentioned as one of his oldest friends, not an untouchable pariah who participated in Dark Magic. Berit replies: But are there any canon evidence to suggest that the majority of WW accepted that it was a necessary "evil" that the Aurors used the unforgivables (I can believe this though; the majority very often go with the flow...)? Any canon to suggest that the old Order found it okay? And where's the canon evidence Dumbledore DIDN'T object? He objected to the Ministry being in league with Dementors... I can't see how using the unforgivables is any better than befriending those foul creatures... Julie: Dumbledore doesn't strike me as the kind of person who pushes his ideas off on other people. He guides and instructs, but rarely commands. Like at the end-of-the-year feast in GoF, he doesn't look directly at Malfoy and say, "You've picked the losing side!" That's a tactic of the dark side, where they bully, threaten and control. This is what makes him so powerful, his remarkable love and respect for everyone, and a willingness to give people second chances. There are tons of examples of DD's "looking the other way." When he finds Harry staring into the Mirror of Erised he doesn't tell him off for being out of bed and out of bounds, but rather uses the prime teaching moment. When Harry was talking smack about "that Skeeter cow" DD looked at the ceiling and became momentarily deaf to what Harry was saying. Whether or not he disapproved of using Unforgivables, I don't think he would mandate that the Order agree with him. (Look at Mundungus, obviously a crook, but we never hear DD's feelings about that, just that he uses Dung's already well-placed ears) Julie, an avid Dumbledore fan __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ From sunnylove0 at aol.com Tue Dec 2 00:20:54 2003 From: sunnylove0 at aol.com (sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 19:20:54 EST Subject: Some points in OOP, and the Mark Evans Thread Message-ID: <1c5.11e4a272.2cfd34e6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86264 Re-reading OOP today (oh, the eye strain) I saw a couple points of interest: 1) Dumbledore IS an extremely powerful wizard, blocking 2 out of 5 reportedly unblockable AKs, (Fawkes ate one and the other two missed.) Hmmm. 2) Agnes, the lady in St. Mungo's, who is told by the healer that her son is dropping by that night, and in the very next chapter Snape is in his good traveling cloak and repeatedly says he has somewhere else to be (of course it could be wanting to get away from Sirius or a DE meeting, but....) ********** Pip!Squeak wrote: And I think that JKR is using her Agatha Christie tricks again. [If you have a chance to look at the photo on the back of the UK adult edition of OOP, she's photographed in front of a bookcase which includes Agatha Christie novels]. With all the interesting, meaningful surnames she could have picked (and has picked for other characters ) - she picked Evans. "Why didn't they ask Evans?" It's a Christie trick. Me: I've often thought that JKR is a Christie fan. "Mr. Brown" in The Secret Adversary, by Christie: "...Once or twice I have felt afraid. The first time was in Italy. There was a dinner given. Professor D---, the great alienist, was present. The talk fell on insanity. He said ' A great many men are mad, and no one knows it. They do not know it themselves.' I do not understand why he looked at me when he said that. His glance was strange....I did not like it..." Shades of Riddle, eh? Amber [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rredordead at aol.com Tue Dec 2 01:08:48 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 01:08:48 -0000 Subject: Evans/Petunia/ Grandpa Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86265 > "Diana_Sirius_fan" wrote: > I think when young Tom Riddle (aka Voldemort) went to the Riddle > house he killed his grandfather, his grandmother and Tom Riddle > sr., > Tom wrote: > I agree, and I think that's what is wrong at the grave yard. The > bones were his grandfather, not his father. Carol wrote: > He killed his father and his grandparents, "elderly > Mr. and Mrs. Riddle . . . and their grown-up son, Tom" (GoF 2, Am. > ed.). He himself was the teenage boy spotted by the gardener, Frank > Bryce, Now me: Humm. Wow guess I was wrong. I've always thought it was LV father, new wife and son but I can see it could easily be his father and grandparents he murdered. How exciting and it completely changes my perception of that moment in the story. But I do think it was LV father, Tom Riddle Sr's grave in the end of the GoF. The spell called for the bones of the father not grandfather and I don't have the impression the spell went wrong. Far from it. It went perfectly right and LV was able to get his, or a full body back. Mandy, who is in awe of the fact that she can still learn something new even after reading the books numerous times over. From belijako at online.no Tue Dec 2 01:13:20 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 01:13:20 -0000 Subject: Bang! You're Dead. (was:Voldemorts animus...) In-Reply-To: <20031202001138.91071.qmail@web40205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86266 Julie wrote: > Dumbledore doesn't strike me as the kind of person who > pushes his ideas off on other people. He guides and > instructs, but rarely commands. Like at the > end-of-the-year feast in GoF, he doesn't look directly > at Malfoy and say, "You've picked the losing side!" > That's a tactic of the dark side, where they bully, > threaten and control. This is what makes him so > powerful, his remarkable love and respect for > everyone, and a willingness to give people second > chances. > > There are tons of examples of DD's "looking the other > way." When he finds Harry staring into the Mirror of > Erised he doesn't tell him off for being out of bed > and out of bounds, but rather uses the prime teaching > moment. When Harry was talking smack about "that > Skeeter cow" DD looked at the ceiling and became > momentarily deaf to what Harry was saying. > > Whether or not he disapproved of using Unforgivables, > I don't think he would mandate that the Order agree > with him. (Look at Mundungus, obviously a crook, but > we never hear DD's feelings about that, just that he > uses Dung's already well-placed ears) Berit replies: I think we agree Julie! because of Dumbledore's high standards, he would object to the uses of unforgivable curses, but that doesn't mean he forces his views on others or "hijacks" the Ministry to bully them into doing things his way. He doesn't force his views on others, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have any... I think Dumbledore (as any responsible citizen in a democrazy has the right to do) did argue and reason with Crouch like he argued and reasoned with Fudge in book 4 and 5. I'm sure the WW and the MoM knew about Dumbledore's stand on certain issues; he didn't keep it a secret. Berit From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 03:26:52 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 03:26:52 -0000 Subject: Lupin's untainted chocolate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86269 snapesmate wrote: Also I have read a post that mentioned > Lupin handing out tainted chocolate. I do not recall canon that says > the chocolate was "tainted". Am I drawing a blank on that as well? > Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice > guy! Diana (me) writes: Here is the quote from PoA: [Set Up: Lupin has handed out chocolate to all the students in the train car with him after driving away the dementor. Too embarrassed about collapsing from the dementor's effects, Harry hasn't eaten his chocolate yet.) QUOTE: Professor Lupin had come back. He paused as he entered, looking around, and said, with a small smile, "I haven't poisoned that cholocat, you know..." Harry took a bit and to his great surprise felt warmth spread suddently to the tips of his fingers and toes.END QUOTE The chocolate was NOT tainted, but another poster used this incident and Lupin's light-hearted comment as grounds for the theory that several red herrings suggesting that Lupin wasn't a good guy were placed throughout the book purposefully by JKR. The point of these red herrings was that when Lupin embraced Black in the Shrieking Shack, the reader (along with Harry) would be equally stunned by Lupin's appearing to be in leaque with the presumed-evil Black. While Lupin's being evil never actually crossed my mind because he spent all that time with Harry teaching him the Patronus Charm (meaning plenty of opportunities to injure/kill Harry were never acted upon), his sudden embrace of Black in the Shrieking Shack was surprising because I wondered why a good guy (Lupin) would side with Black (portrayed as a bad guy through most of PoA). It made me eager for the explaination about what was really going on with Black, which is what JKR was trying to do all along - get the reader intensely involved with the story. Diana L. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 03:41:29 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 03:41:29 -0000 Subject: Harry's ideal ending & my idea of a horrible ending In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86270 > Julie wrote: > > Are you sure it's one of Harry's friends who becomes a > > teacher? It seems to me that that hint that one of the > > students will end up a teacher has already been > > fulfilled, with the DA. Pippin responded: > Welcome, Julie! JKR said Harry wouldn't become a teacher *at > Hogwarts* which I find intriguing, since I think he will have to > sacrifice his powers to defeat Voldemort. And this will be a tragic > loss for the readers, who naturally want more Harry stories, but > not for Harry, who will understand that it is friendship and bravery > that make life worthwhile, not magic. So I think he will be a > teacher in the Muggle world, have the ordinary life he's always > wanted, and marry Ginny, of course, who may have to go into > hiding too if she still harbors some of Voldemort inside her. > > Of course when the first of their children turns eleven... > > Pippin > stopping before this becomes fan fic Carol: That's an intriguing prospect, Pippin. At least you didn't vote for a tragic ending. I personally think he'll share some of th glory with his friends and then settle down to become an auror, the only career he's expressed an interest in. I think Neville will become the teacher and marry Ginny (his loyalty deserves to be rewarded, don't you think?) and Harry can marry Luna, who won't fit neatly into the Muggle world. BTW, is there any evidence in canon for wizards losing their powers? I think that would be a tragic loss for Harry. Loss of fame, though, won't hurt him a bit. I think he can be "Just Harry" without giving up the WW. Carol From melclaros at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 03:42:19 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 03:42:19 -0000 Subject: Is Snape confident? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86271 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nora Renka" wrote: > Snape is good when you need and want iron control. But in a > discussion-based class? No way. And note that even Fake!Moody asks > questions, and they have some discussion about what the curses are > and mean--it's not only Lupin's teaching style. Who ever said that one teacher filling in for another was required to teach in the same style? DADA is not by definition a 'discussion based class'. With Lupin it was, with fakeMoody it seems to have been to some extent. With Umbridge it was not. With Snape I am guessing it would be Practical, but not much discussion, similar to Potions. This Snape filling in for Lupin has been discussed before and I've posted on it before but suffice it to say, there are a lot of teachers who would have "treated" Hermione's insufferable know-it-all behaviour similarly. Perhaps not as gruffly but I've said, and have heard teachers have to say ad nauseum, "Yes, I'm sure you know. Let's let someone else have a chance this time." Eventually the chronic hand-waver gets ignored. Sorry but that's life. Students like that annoy then discourage other students who are less sure of their abilities. Is that what Snape is thinking? Probably not, but that's what happens in classrooms. Assigning the werewolf essay? Snape at his finest (or worst depending on your mood). "Okay Miss Smarty, let's see what you can make of this, shall we?" He knew he wouldn't have to say a damned thing. DD and likely the whole staff knew how Snape felt about hiring a werewolf as a teacher and I'm willing to bet many parents, who would NOT have had the personal history Severus had with Lupin would agree with him if they had known about it. My guess is he was hoping word would simply spread around the common-rooms on its own...a few owls home... Mel, stroking a white persian cat From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 04:05:12 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 04:05:12 -0000 Subject: Life Debt Question In-Reply-To: <20031201225004.55185.qmail@web11602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86273 - Kathryn Wolber wrote: > I'll attempt to have this not be a one liner, but do > we know what happens if someone does not repay a life > debt? Snape had a life debt to James;James died > without it being repayed and we don't see any > repercussions for that. What would the point of a > life debt be if there is no consequence for not > repaying it? Any thoughts? I think he tried to repay it, passing on to Dumbledore the information that Voldemort was trying to kill the Potters and possibly also the suspicion that one of James's friends was a traitor. But his attempt failed, so he feels bound to free himself of the life debt by trying to save Harry. (Somehow someone else always gets the credit.) He may dislike Harry intensely, but he's not about to let him die. Exactly how a life debt works, I don't know, but Dumbledore (speaking of Peter's debt to Harry) says that "when one wizard saves another wizard's life, it creates a certain bond between them" and that he's "much mistaken if Voldemort wants his servant in the debt of Harry Potter." And he adds, "This is magic at its deepest, its moast impenetrable, Harry. But trust me. . . the time may come when you will be very glad you saved Pettigrew's life"(PoA 427 Am. ed., ellipsis in original). I'm not sure what that says about Snape's life debt to James except that it explains to some degree his resentment of it--imagine owing your life to someone you hated and knowing you had to repay the debt--if not to him, then to his son. (That in intself probably explains why he feels such loathing for Harry before he's even spoken to him.) Whatever it is, it's deep and binding, and as I see it, Snape can never rest until he's free of it. (As for Peter, I'm sure he'll put off the obligation as long as possible: out of sight, out of mind. But a time will come when he won't be able to resist the compulsion, either.) Carol, who thinks the unpaid life debt is one reason why Dumbledore trusts Snape From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 04:28:38 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 04:28:38 -0000 Subject: Some Discrepancies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86274 > "greatlit2003" wrote: > > In the first book, when Harry looks into the Mirror of Erised and > > sees his family, he sees his parents and other ancestors, > > including "other pairs of green eyes" like his own. A few lines > > later, JKR writes that the *Potters* waved at Harry out of the > > mirror. The green eyes are a connection between Harry and his > > mother, and some of the people in the mirror are clearly members > of > > the Evans family, so why don't the words reflect that? Did JKR > have > > a reason for not telling us Harry's mother's maiden name until the > > fifth year? > > Meri answered: > I think what we have to remember here is that we see the entire > Mirror of Erised chapter from Harry's perspective: I don't have my > copy of SS with me right now (it's out on loan) but I'm pretty sure > that Harry doesn't know that his eyes come from his mother's side of > the family yet. Carol: I think knowing that he has his mother's eyse (which even Ollivander notices) is a pretty good indication that the green eyes are from her side of the family. Also he sees them in the mirror and probably assumes with some unconscious part of his brain that those people are his mother's relatives. But he's no more interested in them than he was in Sirius Black in the wedding photo before he found out that Sirius (supposedly) betrayed his parents. He saw the photo and the reflections with his eyes but not with his mind, so to speak. Meri: Also, since Harry doesn't know his mother's maiden > name, it's probably safe to assume that he is merely generalizing > when he refers to "the Potters", even if he is seeing the late, > lamented members of the Evans clan. Carol: My thought is that "the Potters" simply referred to Lily and James, the only two people whose relationship to him he cared about at the time. In fact, it was his mother whose face it was hardest to tear his eyes away from. Clearly, though, we as readers are meant to make the connection that these are members of his mother's family--Muggles, or so we've been told. So for me the question is, what are Muggles doing in the Mirror of Erised, even if they were murdered by Voldemort? Or are these people more distant relatives, the ones with magic in them? Petunia's eyes aren't green. I'm betting Mark Evans's are. BTW, I snipped the discussion of the Blacks but I'm sure that Meri is right about Black being Sirius's father's name, not his mother's maiden name, despite her obsession with the Black lineage. The only instances we know of involving maiden names in the WW are the Black sisters and Lily Evans, all of whom took their husband's last names. I would be very surprised if Mrs. Black was an exception to this rule. (I still say that if there's a family connection to the Snapes or the Potters, it's on her side of the family and wouldn't show up on the tapestry. Alternatively, James could have been left off the tapestry as a "blood traitor" who married a Muggle-born but Sirius chose not to bring up the matter.) Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 04:41:07 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 04:41:07 -0000 Subject: Some points in OOP In-Reply-To: <1c5.11e4a272.2cfd34e6@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86275 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, sunnylove0 at a... wrote: > > 2) Agnes, the lady in St. Mungo's, who is told by the healer that her son is > dropping by that night, and in the very next chapter Snape is in his good > traveling cloak and repeatedly says he has somewhere else to be (of course it > could be wanting to get away from Sirius or a DE meeting, but....) Oh, well spotted! as JKR would say. That's very intriguing, putting two and two together as Snape himself would do. I wonder if you're right, and if his treatment of Neville somehow reflects his resentment of his own mother's condition. I don't dare speculate, but if you're right, we may have the real reason, or yet another reason, for Snape's defection from the DEs. Can you provide a page reference or chapter title, please? Carol, who wondered what happened to Snape's parents and hopes he loves his mother From sunnylove0 at aol.com Tue Dec 2 05:08:30 2003 From: sunnylove0 at aol.com (sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 00:08:30 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Some points in OOP Message-ID: <1d2.154d5586.2cfd784e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86276 In a message dated 12/1/2003 9:47:35 PM Mountain Standard Time, justcarol67 at yahoo.com writes: Oh, well spotted! as JKR would say. That's very intriguing, putting two and two together as Snape himself would do. I wonder if you're right, and if his treatment of Neville somehow reflects his resentment of his own mother's condition. I don't dare speculate, but if you're right, we may have the real reason, or yet another reason, for Snape's defection from the DEs. Can you provide a page reference or chapter title, please? Carol, who wondered what happened to Snape's parents and hopes he loves his mother Me: Chapter 23 page 512, & Chapter 24 bottom of pages 517 and 519 (both American editions) I was thinking of Neville too. If they both visit their relatives on Christmas, they'd have been bound to run into each other. I also wonder if Agnes's condition came from Polyjuice, which would explain his no tolerance for mistakes attitude in Potions, especially towards Neville, and his anger at Harry in OOP when he thinks Harry has stolen boomslang skin, a known component of Polyjuice. I've really got to sit down and type this whole theory out. Amber [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 05:11:29 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 05:11:29 -0000 Subject: Some points in OOP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86277 - sunnylove0 at a... wrote: > > > > > 2) Agnes, the lady in St. Mungo's, who is told by the healer that > her son is > > dropping by that night, and in the very next chapter Snape is in his > good > > traveling cloak and repeatedly says he has somewhere else to be (of > course it > > could be wanting to get away from Sirius or a DE meeting, but....) > > > Oh, well spotted! as JKR would say. That's very intriguing, putting > two and two together as Snape himself would do. I wonder if you're > right, and if his treatment of Neville somehow reflects his resentment > of his own mother's condition. I don't dare speculate, but if you're > right, we may have the real reason, or yet another reason, for Snape's > defection from the DEs. > > Can you provide a page reference or chapter title, please? > > Carol, who wondered what happened to Snape's parents and hopes he > loves his mother Responding to my own post here--oh, my! The furry-faced woman who barks! (OoP 512 Am. ed.) If she *is* Snape's mother, given his animosity toward werewolves and other, er, aberrations (and a certain animagus who turns into a dog), her condition must be humiliating for him. And if despite all that, he goes to visit her and gives her Christmas presents rather than denying her existence, then fifty points for Severus. And fifty more for Neville if he knows about it and keeps his mouth shut. But I don't know what to hope now, except that someone finds a cure for poor Agnes, regardless of who her son is. But if Snape can't find the right potion, who can? Carol, who for once is almost glad she lives in the RW From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 05:34:16 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 05:34:16 -0000 Subject: Propehcy correct/Neville never could be the one In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86278 "jwcpgh" wrote: > Which makes me wonder what good the blasted things are in the first > place. At no time and under no circumstances does learning a > prophecy help anyone-it's either too early or too late (as Kneasy > points out below). Salit wrote: No. A prophecy must be fulfilled. The fact that it is heard and who actually hears it is part of the conditions that set out its fulfillment. In that way, it is no coincidence that it was DD that heard the first prophecy and Harry that heard the second. The prophecy *would not have happened* without the right set of listeners. That of course includes the eavesdopper. For the prophecy to be fulfilled, DD had to hear the entire thing, as he was the best person around to help bring it about - and the spy had to hear just enough of it to get Voldemort to act on it thereby sealing his doom. It may sound like a circular argument, but it works somewhat like the time turner in PoA. To save people in the present, their future selves had to do the right things at the right time. In some respects, the prophecy is a message from the future designed to set in motion the right sequence of events to bring about what it predicts. "jwcpgh" wrote: > And that's why this particular prophecy has been tainted almost from > the moment it was uttered. Once LV heard any part of it, his > actions would influence the remainder. Salit replied: But that was the whole point, wasn't it? Voldemort had to hear some of the prophecy in order for him to take action, thereby make it happen. ******I (Diana) write: I agree with Salit. To elaborate on what was already written, the prophecy about Harry and Voldemort MUST have been overheard in order to be fulfilled, thus the prophecy's very existence and ultimate accuracy depends on the right person hearing it and the right people overhearing it. The prophecy creates a paradox - it had to be made, overheard and acted upon by both the good guys and the bad guys so that the prophecy would be fulfilled and become true, necessitating it being made in the first place. The prophecy was never actually 'tainted' - it being heard and overheard was a vital condition of its very existence. "jwcpgh" wrote: > We know that the original > prophecy could have referred to one of two children. If LV had been > smart (apparently his spy neglected to tell him at the time that > s/he was passing along incomplete information-or else LV is not as > smart as he thinks he is) he would have bided his time in scenic > Albania and waited to see how the 2 kids grew up. Salit wrote: Voldemort was told only that the one with the power to vanquish him approaches and how to identify him. Makes sense to destroy your enemy when they are least likely to resist. He had no reason to suspect that his act will actually help bring that about. That was the spy had to be there and hear just enough (and no more) so that Voldemort will do what he had to do. "jwcpgh" wrote: > But LV panicked > and marked Harry, thus putting Neville out of the running. And > having marked Harry, LV had no choice but to try to kill him. This > isn't prophecy, it's a logical result of his choosing to mark > someone. Salit wrote: Ha? LV did not panic. He acted logically. He went to destroy one who was prophecied to have the power to destroy him when he was least able to resist. And Voldemort did not first mark Harry then tried to kill him - Harry was marked by the killing act itself. As for Neville, clearly Voldemort had additional information that pointed out the Potters as risk to himself. Maybe another prophecy? *******I (Diana) would like to add: That's just it, isn't it? Voldemort ISN'T as smart as he thinks he is! He repeatedly admitted forgetting several important details which saved Harry's life in CoS (healing power of Phoenix tears, etc.) and has often changed his gloating/actions in order to pretend events weren't out of his control or understanding in SS, CoS, GoF and OoP (just a few are: delaying murdering Harry on several occasions just so he could gloat; giving a helpless and injured Harry back his wand in the graveyard so they could duel (and Voldemort LOST!); pretending to be pleased that Harry didn't die from the basilisk venom so that Riddle could kill Harry himself; ignoring Bellatrix's attempt to warn him of Dumbledore's presence at the MoM, et al). Voldemort is extremely vain, so he wouldn't run even the slightest chance of losing any of the power he'd gained that would have resulted from his waiting to kill a baby that was a definite threat to him. Voldemort would have lost face in the eyes of his followers, and he wouldn't put up with that. And I don't think Voldemort tried to killed Harry out of logic either, it was a decision born out of hatred, cowardice and fear. Remember, Voldemort doesn't know that the true winner of his battle with Harry has yet to be determined - the prophecy stated either side could win, but Voldemort didn't hear that part. As far as Voldemort knew, a child was born with the power to vanquish him...and fearing being vanquished, Voldemort attempted to kill the one destined to kill him by striking when that person was a helpless child. He was too cowardly to wait until the child was older so that he could kill Harry in a true duel, but instead intended to kill Harry when Harry was incapable of fighting back - cowardice personified! Riddle/Voldemort is a powerful wizard, no doubt about it, but he's not that bright. Sure he tricked Harry to go to the MoM in OoP, but being able to trick a fifteen-year-old boy trying desparately to save the only parental figure he's ever known is hardly difficult, is it? Just because a wizard is powerful doesn't make that wizard an intelligent person who behaves in intelligent ways. Let's say Voldemort did succeed in oppressing muggles and stopping muggle/wizard intermarriages - then wizards would indeed die out. They would cease to exist. Genocide is not a great outcome for someone supposedly wanting to preserve the wizarding way of life. After much thought, I don't think the prophecy ever could have applied to Neville; it was always going to be Harry. Only the good guys (Dumbledore) thought it could be Harry or Neville, but that was only because they knew of two sets of expectant parents who fit the desription in the prophecy and saw either child as a potential threat to Voldemort. In Voldemort's eyes, though, the only true threat was going to be Harry and that is because of Harry's being of half-muggle parentage - just like Voldemort. Dumbledore, Voldemort and even Harry himself have commented on how many similarities Harry shares with Voldemort, which means Voldemort was always going to chose the person most like himself as the true threat to his power. Salit wrote: I guess the point I am trying to make is that the prophecy had to happen. Trying to analize how people's mistakes brought about the tragic sequence of events misses the point. They had to make them (or one could imagine a different set of tragic events to take place). *******I (Diana) write: No doubt about it - the prophecy did have to happen, though the side- trips taken on the way to it becoming reality were probably up in the air. And whether or not Harry wins or Voldemort wins, the prophecy didn't say. Maybe the ultimate outcome is so dependent on choice (Harry's, Voldemort's, Dumbledore's, etc.) that there were too many alternate results brancing into infinity to express in a prophecy. Maybe Harry's repeated run ins with Voldemort/Riddle are all just instances of the prophecy waiting for fulfillment. Everytime Harry has come face to face with Voldemort, he's nearly died at Voldemort's hand, but manages to escape. Yet, in each case, Harry almost no chance of killing Voldemort in any of those scenarios. Harry couldn't have killed Vapormort at the end of SS/PS because he just didn't know enough magic to do so. At the end of CoS, Harry only 'killed' the memory of sixteen-year-old Voldemort and was never actually confronting the current Voldemort. In PoA, Voldemort was just a background character and as Pettigrew was not yet back with Voldemort until the very end, Pettigrew killing Harry for any reason would not have been on Voldemort's command. At the end of GoF, Harry had his first real chance of killing Voldemort, but did he really? Surrounded by Death Eaters and in a weakened condition, Harry more than likely couldn't have killed Voldemort even if he wanted to. He didn't know how to do the killing curse or even Imperio, so unless he could have killed him with some of the jinxes he knew, Voldemort was in no real physical danger from Harry. At the end of OoP, Harry was really no match for Voldemort face to face and would have died if Dumbledore hadn't appeared upon the scene when he did. Sure, Harry tried Crucio on Bellatrix, but it wasn't that successful. So, for Harry to kill Voldemort like the prophecy states as one of two possible outcomes, Harry must have the ability to kill Voldemort at one of their upcoming confrontations. So Harry must master the killing curse or find an unexpected weakness to exploit (love perhaps?) to use to kill Voldemort. One thing is for sure, their future confrontations are probably going to be violent and intense. Diana L. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 05:34:45 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 05:34:45 -0000 Subject: Is Snape confident? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86279 > Carol: > > > BTW, June, I agree with all your Snape-related points but at the > > moment have almost nothing to add, so I regretfully snipped them. > > Great assessment of his behavior in the Shrieking Shack scene, in > > which in addition to all his personal resentment of Sirius, he > > honestly believes him to be a murderer. I think that a person like > > Snape, who has to keep so much anger under control so much of the > > time, would indeed erupt in fury under such circumstances. Also, as > > someone else mentioned, it's commendable that he put the unconscious > > Sirius on a stretcher rather than bobbing him around so that his > head > > hit the ceiling as Sirius did with him. I suppose he thought he had > > everything under control so he was his normal self at that moment. > > *pokes her nose back into the argument* > > So...Snape is conscious, and his 'normal self', when he makes the > comment about getting Sirius disposed of before Dumbledore can cause > any problems. Am I the only person really bothered by that? It's > not a heat of the moment statement. Carol: Oops. Not what I meant. I was referring to the strecher incident as occuring when he's calm and his normal self. But he *does* think Sirius is a murder and that the children were under a confundus spell. I think he's afraid that Dumbledore's soft heart will lead him to save Sirius. He does act less than admirably at that point and I'm afraid he's thinking mostly of himself and the Order of Merlin he's about to win. And when he behaves like a maniac later (as Sirius had also done, but not in front of Fudge), he still thinks Sirius is a murderer. What's commendable is that after everything is explained to him he calms down, agrees to shake hands with Sirius, shows Fudge his Death Eater mark, and goes off on a dangerous mission to Dumbledore. Nora: It comes *after* he's busily > shut up Hermione again, in the Hospital Wing. But yet...he does put > him on a stretcher, and makes sure he's reasonably safe and secure. Carol: Yes. He does. And that, to me, is important, especially contrasted with Sirius's treatment of him. Nora: > Not to worry this like a dog with a bone, but I'm feeling a little > evaded here. :) Carol: Sorry, Nora. I didn't mean to be evasive (or vague, either). I was probably in too big a hurry to post my own thoughts to read yours carefully, which would have required going back to the previous post since I'd already snipped them . I would never argue that Snape (or any of JKR's characters) is perfect. It's just that Snape is such a bundle of contradictions that he's the most fun to analyze. And I do think that *all* of his actions are understandable and *some* are justifiable or even admirable under the circumstances. But wanting to go behind Dumbledore's back to be sure Sirius is kissed is certainly not one of them. Carol, who forgot to mention that she thinks Snape is sufficiently complex without adding unrequited love for Lily to the mix From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 05:56:15 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 05:56:15 -0000 Subject: Harry's ideal ending & my idea of a horrible ending In-Reply-To: <20031201131805.12048.qmail@web40203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86280 -Carol: > > One of Harry's > > friends, we know, will become a teacher at > > Hogwarts--no Ron and > > probably not Hermione ("It's not who you > > think"--sorry--quoting from > > memory) so it's probably Neville. > > Julie: > Are you sure it's one of Harry's friends who becomes a > teacher? It seems to me that that hint that one of the > students will end up a teacher has already been > fulfilled, with the DA. > Julie, I'm sorry I didn't get back to you sooner with this. Yes, It's absolutely clear that she's talking about the Epilogue, which will tell what happens to the survivors of the war with Voldemort. here's the link: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/1099-connectiontransc.html Woman on phone: [W]e're curious as to whether Harry is going to have a life after Hogwarts, or if maybe, Harry might be a Hogwarts teacher. JKR: Well, because all your kids said `hello' so nicely in the background there, I am going to give you information I haven't given anyone else and I will tell you that one of the characters, one of Harry's classmates, though it's not Harry himself, does end up a teacher at Hogwarts. But, it is not, maybe the one you think, hint, hint, hint. Yeah, one of them does end up staying at Hogwarts, but... [To woman on the phone] Do the kids want to guess at it, Kathleen? Woman on phone: Do you guys have a guess as to who it is? (Kids shouting in background) Ron They say Ron. JKR: No, it's not Ron. I can't see Ron as a teacher. No way. Hope that's helpful. "The one you think" seems to refer to Hermione, and she's specifically eliminated Harry and Ron, so that pretty much leaves us with Neville (or possibly Ginny, but I doubt it). Carol From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 06:16:19 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 06:16:19 -0000 Subject: time travel revisited - Added Note: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86281 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Astrid Wootton wrote: > On 1/12/03 11:43 AM, "Steve" wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > >> > > > > > > > > > bboy_mn says > > > > > > is compounded by his using a broken wand that he can't actually > > get his hand around. ... > > > Now Astrid: > > Shouldn?t Hagrid have been allowed a wand after he was cleared of > the charges that occasioned his expulsion? ...edited... > > Astrid bboy_mn: It's always been my theory that while it is generally accepted that Hagrid had no part in any of the monster from the Chamber of Secrets problems that occurred, there has never been a formal hearing to officially reverse his expulsion or his conviction by the Ministry. Even before the book CoS, Hagrid was allowed to use magic around school, although unofficially and within reasonable limited. Now he is able to use magic without the need to hide, he still has to be somewhat consevative. I think before he can get a new wand, there will have to be some official reversal of his original conviction. I believe this will happen, in the next book. They need every man on deck at full capacity if they hope to defeat Voldemort. I also hope that Harry will make some efforts to officially clear Sirius's name, even if it is nothing more than another Rita Skeeter article. Just a thought. bboy_mn From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 06:43:12 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 06:43:12 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans - evans, Evans, EVANS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86282 Pipsqueak: > Ah, but the significance of the *name*? > > JKR could have picked any surname she liked for Lily. Anything. > There are plenty of surnames in the UK where the holders are almost > certainly related to everyone else with that surname. Heck, my > family includes one of those surnames, and it's spooky how people > can often spot that my unbelievably distant cousins *are* cousins, > because of the similarities. > > But she didn't pick that type of surname for Lily. With all the > possibilities - the place names where everyone is from the same > small area, the names derived from famous families, the names > derived from one small family who immigrated to England centuries > ago ... she picked 'Evans'. > > And one thing we know about JKR - she picks character names with > great care. Carol: And in this case she's taken care to choose a name that could go either way. If the child were named Mark Lupin, we'd be pretty sure there was a connection with Remus but wonder what he was doing in a Muggle neighborhood. But Mark Evans is in the same Muggle neighborhood as Petunia Evans Dursley, which could be the same neighborhood she and her sister Lily grew up in. Mark is either a Muggle-born wizard presumably related to Lily because of the coincidence of names and exactly the right age to attend Hogwarts next year or a Muggle red herring with whom JKR has chosen to tease us. I know I can't convince you, but IMO the first option is much more likely. Pipsqueak: > To recap: > > JKR has set up that the *wizarding world* is inbred. > JKR has set up that *wizards* with common surnames are related. > JKR has given an off-stage character the same name as Harry's mother. > JKR has emphasised Harry's mother's surname. You've forgotten his age. If he were seven or eight I'd think nothing of it except that Dudley deserved to be "demented" for treating him that way. If he were twelve or thirteen, I wouldn't give it a second thought because he would already be attending Hogwarts if he were a wizard. But ten! Either he's going to get a Hogwarts letter next year or we've been teased and misled for nothing. Pipsqueak: > JKR has given Harry's mother a surname where NOT all the holders are > related. > JKR has emphasised that Harry's mother is *muggle-born* > JKR has given the same surname to another *muggle-born* character. > > I think we're being led down a garden path of 'all characters in the > Potterverse with the same surname are relatives'. Therefore 'Mark > Evans' must be a relative. > > However - > > Harry makes no mention that Mark Evans is a relative. > > Dudley doesn't see Mark Evans as a relative. Carol: Probably because he's not a first cousin or other close relative. It's quite possible for him to be a second cousin to both Dudley and Harry without their knowing it. For one thing, Harry doesn't yet know his mother's maiden name. It's possible that Dudley, being the self-centered pig/thug that he is, doesn't know *his* mother's, either. (He wouldn't let Mark's being his cousin interfere with beating him up, anyway. It didn't stop him with Harry.) Not being aware of a relationship is a very different thing from not being related. Pipsqueak: > The only relative to visit the Dursley household was a Dursley. The > only relatives Petunia mentions are her sister, her parents, and > Harry. (Plus Dudley's Aunt Marge, mentioned in PS/SS as well as PoA). Actually the fact that the only relative to visit was a Dursley only emphasizes a denial of the Evans connection. Almost certainly there are no more close relatives (I'm not postulating that Lily and Petunia had a brother who is or was Mark's father), but Vernon wants nothing to do with any Evanses or Potters, living or dead. As far as he's concerned, only Dursleys are respectable. On the rare occasions when Petunia is allowed to talk about her family, she mentions witchcraft, which is why Vernon bottles her up. It's possible that she may know of other relatives in the neighborhood whose existence she keeps carefully concealed. But even she might not know about them if the relationship is sufficiently distant. Pipsqueak: > Dumbledore refers to the Dursley's as Harry's only family. Carol: This point has been dealt with repeatedly in previous posts. A) Dumbledore may not know about the relationship since squibs merge with Muggles after only a few generations. B) If he does know about the relationship between Harry's mother and Mark's father, it wasn't sufficiently close for them to be considered "family." He wanted a strong blood connection, available only through Petunia. Pipsqueak: > Evans is a common name. Most people called Evans probably aren't > related. Carol: Not in real life, true. But this is the Potterverse, where clues are dropped to be found. Are there any unexplained coincidences that have turned out to be dead ends? (I'm not being rude; I'm asking if you know of any.) > > And, most importantly: > Both Mark Evans and Lily Evans come from the muggle world. The world > where everyone *isn't* interestingly inbred. The world where a > coincidence of surnames may well be just a coincidence. Carol: Or they come from the Squib/Muggle world where they share a common ancestor. If Mark's father and Lily were first cousins, their fathers would have been brothers and that ancestor would be Harry's and Mark's great grandfather, whom we can say for arguments sake was a Squib who married a Muggle and produced Muggle offspring, one of whom had two daughters, a Muggle-born Witch and a Muggle (Petunia can't be a squib with Muggle parents) and the other had at least one son, Mark's father, who also has to be a Muggle or we'd have heard of him by now. I don't want to get back into the question of how witchcraft is transmitted genetically, but it's pretty clear that Lily must have had a Witch/Wizard ancestor at some point, and Mark--*if* he's a Muggle-born Wizard and not a red herring--must have had one also. At that point, the likelihood of their being related becomes much greater. I will, at any rate, be seriously disappointed if it's "another Christie trick." Can you point out an instance of any previous tricks, other than misleading us as to the identity of the villain on more than one occasion? Carol, who thought Steve's post would convince you and turned out to be wrong, wrong, wrong! From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 07:00:28 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 07:00:28 -0000 Subject: New Clues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86283 historygirl wrote: > I also have not read Paradise Lost, but unless New Clues is implying > a larger connection than similar themes in the beginning, I'm > disinclined. A lot of books have droughts and heat in them. As does > Britain itself, from time to time. Carol: "Paradise Lost" is about Good and Evil (coincidence, huh?) and Original Sin. The antagonist, Satan, is generally regarded as the most interesting character (Voldemort parallel? Most of us think not.) Or how about the Dursleys' yard as the Garden of Eden? My impression so far is that this book is full of hot air and empty generalizations. historygirl: > > 3. NEW CLUES also suggests the way Harry is poking fun at Dudley > has > > significance. He does use a bit of baby talk, does he not? The > > other person who uses baby talk in OoP is none other than Voldie's > #1 > > Mistress - Bella! Hmmm... Carol: Wait. This book thinks Bellatrix is Voldemort's mistress? A) It's a kids' book and B) even Bella isn't that demented. She and LV are both after power, not sex, as far as I can see. In fact, the sexiest thing in the book so far has been the "wet" kiss under the mistletoe that turned out to be wet from tears. (I personally think Bellatrix would be insulted to be referred to as "Voldie's mistress." She's as much a Death Eater as Lucius Malfoy and will Crucio you if you deny it.) historygirl: > The baby talk thing could have some significance. Maybe. Harry and > Bellatrix also both use unforgiveable curses. And we know that Harry > is having Voldemort dreams and scar-twinges from the beginning of the > book. Carol: If baby talk is significant, we'd better bring in the Weasley twins ("ickle Ronnie's a prefect") and Peeves, who gloats over the "ickle firsties" in the first book. And Petunia uses it as an endearment rather than a form of sarcasm ("Dudleykins" or whatever). Thanks for your post. I'll know not to expect anything worthwhile from this book. Carol From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 07:37:34 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 07:37:34 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans - evans, Evans, EVANS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86284 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" wrote: > > > > > > > Steve (Bboy) writes: > > And just by happenstance, the name Evans is used in reference to > > TWO seemingly unrelated people. It's hard to believe that JKR > > could use the same name in the critical book in which Lily's > > family name is revealed, to refer to two unrelated people. Really > > hard to believe. > > Pip!Squeak: > > Ah, but the significance of the *name*? > > JKR could have picked any surname she liked for Lily. Anything. > ...edited... > bboy_mn: No, I don't think so; although, I will admit the possibility. My guess is that since Lily is a significant character, her name wasn't 'picked', it was more inspired. When the character Lily came to JKR, she came with the name Evans (speculation, but very likely), and later in the story, it's Mark's surname that needs to be picked. Knowing the great significants of the Evans name relative to Harry and Lily, why would she 5 books later give the same name to a seemingly completely insignificant character, especially when that insignificant character was introduced in the same book that introduces Lily's surname. Seems like a very poor and unlikely place for a coincidence. There is no debate over why she gave Lily the name Evans, the debate is over why she also gave Mark the name Evans. And, while I stand by this distinction, I also admit, it's pretty nitpicky. > Pip!Squeak: > > However - > > Harry makes no mention that Mark Evans is a relative. > > Dudley doesn't see Mark Evans as a relative. > > The only relative to visit the Dursley household was a Dursley. > (Aunt Marge...) > > Dumbledore refers to the Dursley's as Harry's only family. > > Evans is a common name. Most people called Evans probably aren't > related. > bboy_mn: True, all people with the name Evans aren't related, although, it's likely that many of them from a common national origin ARE related IF you go back far enough in their family tree. Your arguments about the Dursley action and reaction relative to other members of the Evans family only holds true IF the Evans in question is a close relation. If the relationship is more than a couple of generations back, they are essentially 'long lost relatives' and would therefore have no part in the Dursley's lives. > Pip!Squeak: > > JKR is, I think, doing the same thing. Harry wants a family; he is > now aware of his mother's maiden name. Is he going to develop an > interest in Mark Evans? If Mark Evans does turn up at Hogwarts, > isn't he going to be *sure* that Mark is a long lost relative? > > ...edited... > > Pip!Squeak bboy_mn: I have no problem at all with this being the significants of Lily and Mark sharing a common family name. It's possible that once Mark shows up at school, Harry will make the 'Evans' connection and become obssessed with trying to find a family connection between Mark and himself. I still like the idea of Mark Evans knocking on Harry's door one day during the summer carrying a letter from Hogwarts requesting that Harry help Mark go to Diagon Alley and pick up his school supplies, and help him get aboard the train for school. I can see lots of hi-jinx coming out of that. But that's just me. Just a thought. bboy_mn From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 09:06:32 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 09:06:32 -0000 Subject: Propehcy correct/Neville never could be the one -Correction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86285 ******I (Diana) wrote earlier: I agree with Salit. To elaborate on what was already written, the prophecy about Harry and Voldemort MUST have been overheard in order to be fulfilled, thus the prophecy's very existence and ultimate accuracy depends on the right person hearing it and the right people overhearing it. The prophecy creates a paradox - it had to be made, overheard and acted upon by both the good guys and the bad guys so that the prophecy would be fulfilled and become true, necessitating it being made in the first place. The prophecy was never actually 'tainted' - it being heard and overheard was a vital condition of its very existence. CORRECTING myself: To clarify my point I wanted to correct myself. I actually got the wrong word - I wanted self-fulfilling, not paradox. Typing faster than I was thinking on that one. Sheesh! The prophecy had to have been overheard and leaked to Voldemort so that Voldemort would attack Harry resulting in Voldemort marking Harry as his equal. The attack also gave Harry the gift of parseltongue and probably other powers we've yet to see clearly detailed by JKR. In addition, the prophecy also had to be heard by Dumbledore (or at the very least known by Dumbledore) so that Dumbledore could put measures into effect that would protect Harry while he was still so young from Voldemort. So, the prophecy exists in order to cause action and produce results that, in turn, cause the prophecy to become true. So, because those who heard the prophecy believed it to be true, they act on the info contained within and MADE it come true. Diana L. From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Tue Dec 2 09:29:40 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 09:29:40 -0000 Subject: Bang! You're Dead. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86286 > Carol again: >In GoF, Harry can't bring himself to use > Avada Kedavra against Sirius, despite his rage, or > against Peter Pettigrew, despite his cold contempt. He > also persuades Lupin and Sirius not to use it, not to > become killers. He knows, through reason or instinct, > that they would be contaminating themselves by doing so. In GoF, Harry has no reason to AK Sirius, and little opportunity to AK Peter. If you mean in PoA, Harry hadn't heard of Avada Kedavra yet... > Kneasy: > > I'm pleased that you have no objection to Voldy being > > smeared across the landscape; just the method used > > causes you concern. Why? Dead is dead. > > Carol again: No. Dead isn't dead and killing isn't > killing. There's self-defense and there's murder. There > are legitimate and illegitimate methods. Unless Harry is > made an honorary auror exempt from the laws of the WW or > the law is changed in time of war, he should not break > it. And the moral law still applies: the curses are > unforgiveable. Why should he be forgiven for using them > if no one else (except an auror when Crouch was in > charge) can be forgiven for using one? While I think they'd probably wave the charges if Tom was killed by AK, I feel it is more a matter of not stooping to their level. A bit of dialogue I recall from PS/SS: "You flatter me," said Dumbledore calmly. "Voldemort had powers I will never have." "Only because you're too -- well -- noble to use them." I feel this would cover the unforgivables as well. You may note that Harry has been called noble no less then 3 times by Dobby, and was told he did a noble thing by Dumbledore in PoA. Interestingly, the only time he was called noble in OoP was Phineas being sarcastic... > > > Carol: You may be right about Bellatrix's comments > > being a red herring, but I don't think so. She and > > Voldemort appear to enjoy inflicting pain and death. > > If, indeed, that feeling is required to make the curses > > effective, then the reason they're "unforgiveable" is > > clear. They can be cast only by someone who is already > > cruel and well on his or her way to becoming > > irreversibly evil. > > > > Kneasy: Yes, Bella and her squeeze do enjoy inflicting > > pain. Is that relevant to everyone else? Did the Aurors > > empowered by Crouch enjoy it? Did they all irrevocably > > become Dark Magicians with no redeeming features? I > > suspect that generalising from extreme examples could > > be misleading. Moody and his confederates are > > irreversibly evil by that argument and I can see no > > evidence for it. > > Carol again: I can see your point here and I've revised > my theory (above) to include cold indifference regarding > the AK. But the other two, especially Crucio, are > probably never justified in JKR's view. There are plenty > of other spells available to hinder an opponent, notably > shield charms, Expelliarmus and Stubefy (correctly > pronounced). I wouldn't mind seeing Harry hit LV with a > combination of Expelliarmus and Tarantellegra (if Harry's > wand will work against its brother). But Crucio is > another matter altogether. I'd like to point out that we have no canon of Moody having used the unforgivable curses as of yet. While he didn't manage to bring in all the DE's he fought alive, there are many other ways he could have killed them. Keep in mind that none of the unforgivables in GoF were done by Moody. And I do think most of the Aurors using unforgivables were bad ones. Keep in mind it wasn't limited to AK'ing. They could also use Crucio and Imperio. Also, I don't really think the whole bit with Bella was a red herring. What she said seemed both consistant with what Crouch has said about the unforgivables, AK in particular: "Avada Kedavra's a curse that needs a powerful bit of magic behind it - you could all get your wands out now and point them at me and say the words, and I doubt I'd get so much as a nosebleed." And it also seems consistant with the way the patronus works. And why would Bella lie about it, anyways? She's just been knocked off her feet, and is yelling a response back immediately, just after firing a curse back at him. She hasn't really had time to come up with a clever lie, IMHO. You'll notice that the moment when he casts Crucio is when she drops the baby talk and starts taking him seriously. On another note, why does most of the information thus far about unforgivables come from DEs? > Carol > > P.S. Has anyone hunted up all the references in the books > to the Unforgiveable Curses? Who's used them and in what > circumstances and why they're unforgiveable? That's what > I really need to explore before I take this discussion > any further. C. Not all of them, but here's what I can think of offhand: They were introduced in GoF by name (Lucius in CoS is movie contamination) Chapter 14 of GoF - "The Unforgivable Curses" has the most information. Chapter 27 of GoF has Sirius's info on their use by Aurors. Chapter 36 of OoP is where the infamous taunt by Bella is. Tom has AK'ed his parents (unconfirmed), Harrys parents, Bertha Jorkins, Frank Bryce, and undoubtedly others, tried to AK Harry more then once, Imperioed him, Crucioed many of his followers, and undoubtly done much more in the rein of terror. Peter AKed Cedric. Umbridge didn't end up Crucioing Harry, but threatened him with it, and started to cast it. The Lestranges & Barty Jr Crucioed the Longbottoms. Barty Jr has demonstrated all the unforgivables, and gets credit for most use of imperio in the series (the entire class, his father, Moody, and Krum). How his killed his father is uncertain... Krum cast Crucio while under Imperius. (which is interesting, actually...) Lucius claimed to have been under Imperio, and Imperio was heavily used in the first reign of terror. The only unforgivables specified in the graveyard were Tom & Peter's, The DE's were instructed to *stun* Harry. In the MoM, Bella cast Crucio & Tom cast AK, and so did the baby-headed DE. There were several jets of green light from unspecified DE's, and one from Bella. (I think the unspecified ones were from Bella and Lucius, and possibly Rookwood...) I may have missed some, naturally... --Arcum From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Tue Dec 2 09:46:14 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 09:46:14 -0000 Subject: Harry's ideal ending & my idea of a horrible ending In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86287 > Woman on phone: [W]e're curious as to whether Harry is going to have a > life after Hogwarts, or if maybe, Harry might be a Hogwarts teacher. > > JKR: Well, because all your kids said `hello' so nicely in the > background there, I am going to give you information I haven't given > anyone else and I will tell you that one of the characters, one of > Harry's classmates, though it's not Harry himself, does end up a > teacher at Hogwarts. But, it is not, maybe the one you think, hint, > hint, hint. Yeah, one of them does end up staying at Hogwarts, but... > [To woman on the phone] Do the kids want to guess at it, Kathleen? > Woman on phone: Do you guys have a guess as to who it is? > (Kids shouting in background) Ron > They say Ron. > JKR: No, it's not Ron. I can't see Ron as a teacher. No way. > > > Hope that's helpful. "The one you think" seems to refer to Hermione, > and she's specifically eliminated Harry and Ron, so that pretty much > leaves us with Neville (or possibly Ginny, but I doubt it). And while Ron is specified as not being a teacher, the others are only specified as not teaching at Hogwarts. This leaves Beauxbatons and Durmstrang as possibilities... ^_^ I'm also curious what the end of the sentence "Yeah, one of them does end up staying at Hogwarts, but..." was going to be... --Arcum From lovefromhermione at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 03:52:19 2003 From: lovefromhermione at yahoo.com (lovefromhermione at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 19:52:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Leaving Harry unprotected In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031202035219.83840.qmail@web40201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86288 Boris the Bewildered: At the end of OOTP, the members of the Order let Harry go off with the Dursleys unprotected. Earlier in the book, JKR makes a big deal about people watching over Harry and always having an elaborate guard any time he goes anywhere - from Privet Drive to Grimmauld Place and later movements anywhere. But after warning Vernon to be nice to Harry, the Order just lets him go without anyone to protect him. Is he safe anytime he's around Petunia (because of that blood charm)? . Julie: Sturgis Podmore's sentence in Azkaban was up around the beginning of March (see US p. 287), so they probably had Moody's spare Invisibility Cloak back (US p. 370) (the MoM does return those things, don't they?). Who's to say Dung isn't tailing him again, invisible? Julie, who enjoys the use of parentheses From wry1352000 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 05:53:37 2003 From: wry1352000 at yahoo.com (wry1352000) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 05:53:37 -0000 Subject: Legilimens and Occlumens and Snape's Reasons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86289 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Zinaida asked: Was Snape purposefully extracting a particular kind of memories - acting as a dementor, of sorts - to humiltiate Harry? --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: I think Snape was intentionally extracting painful memories from Harry so that Harry could get some idea of how Voldemort could use legilemency against him. (Also, of course, most of Harry's memories are unhappy, as we know from the difficulty he had finding one that would work for the Patronus charm.).... Snape is proud and he detests Harry, but he isn't a dementor or an agent of Voldemort. There is always a reason for his actions--and his emotions. Carol --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "artcase" wrote: > I disagree. Some schools of thought in dog training use shock > collars and negative response to get a dog to behave. Snape used > Harry's worst memories to trigger a reaction of aversion inside > Harry's head.... The scene where Harry uses the stinging hex to repel Snape seems interesting. Not only is Harry building walls of defense, but he fires back in offense. ... Art Zinaida: I don't think that Snape is an agent of Voldemort or a dementor :). But I think he is *behaving* as a dementor during Occlumency lessons with Harry. It seems to me that Snape is using the "that's-what- Voldemort-would-do-to-you" explanation ("you are handing me weapons... Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves... stand no chance against his powers!") as an excuse to do at these lessons what he is always doing to Harry at his regular lessons. Why I think that? All that Snape says is true, but if he were more concerned with teaching Harry Occlumency than with accessing his uncomfortable memories per se (note, I don't say he wasn't concerned with the former - it's just a matter of comparison), (1) he would not have done what Voldemort might do at the first attempt of the first lesson, increasing the difficulty gradually (as he does at his potions classes) and allowing Harry to build on his successes; (2) he would have *first* explained to Harry in detail what he should do rather than later at Harry's demands; (3) he would have given him time to prepare at first, again allowing for gradual increase of difficulty. (Not to mention that the normal and decent thing to do in such a delicate situation would be to provide Harry with a pensive as well.) I think that , although Harry was curious about the mysterious door at MOM, he wanted to and did make an effort to learn Occlumency, but the problem was that Snape hindered him almost as much as helped, and although I don't think Snape was *purposefully* "softening Harry up for Voldemort that's exactly what happened, for Harry's feeling ill for a long time after the first lesson and his scar prickling all the time from then on were clearly the result of Snape's "method." Harry's searching about for a thought happy enough to banish a dementor (i.e. depression) doesn't mean he didn't have lots of normal, neutral memories or enough ordinarily pleasant ones. After all, for the last five years he had been living with the Dursleys for only two months a year, and most of the memories which "surfaced" during the Occlumency lessons are way old. At one point he was "forced, yet again, to relive a stream of very early memories he had not even realized he still had" (590). I think that whatever sporadic successes Harry had during those lessons are probably the result of his general high talent in the DADA. It also seems to me that whatever methods are used by some schools in dog training, some of them are not quite appropriate in high school teaching. And does Harry really need "aversion therapy" to not wish his mind to be broken into by Voldemort? And I think Snape has already built up enough aversion to himself in Harry prior to book 5 for Harry not to wish him to read his mind either :). And while I don't think Snape is a clandestine Voldemort supporter, I do wonder whether he is not, perhaps, overly fascinated by the dark arts (quite apart from Voldemort). *Maybe* Dumbledore is afraid that if Snape delves too much into them he might be tempted to use them for his own ends (not to be come a second Voldemort, but for whatever his ends might be, and some of them not very positive either), and that's why he doesn't want Snape to teach DADA. What does seem evident to me, however, is that when DADA (in the broad sense) agenda conflicts with his personal revenge agenda ? as in the Shrieking Shack and Occlumency lessons situations ? he is quite capable of eschewing the former for the latter, no matter how high the stakes are. I don't think he means to help Voldemort, rather that he gets so blinded by his desire for revenge that he loses any perspective. Sure, any person has reasons for his actions and emotions, it's just the matter of which reasons one chooses. And in regards to Harry, sometimes it seems to me that it's Snape rather than Sirius who doesn't see the difference between him and James and anyway one would think that after 5 years he might have just tired of the game :). I apologize if my previous post (or this one) gave offense ? I certainly didn't mean to condemn Snape as the necessary future traitor, merely speculating ? what his various motives might be and whether his passion for revenge against supposed allies might not *accidentally* take him too far at some point. But no, I think it very unlikely (although not 100% impossible) that he'll ever return to Voldemort's service. Zinaida. P.S. On the Shrieking Shack situation and Snape's "knowledge" as to who is guilty, compare his behavior with Dumbledore's who says he gave evidence to the MOM that Black was the Potters' secret keeper (apparently in good knowledge, as he thought at the time - it seems he had it from James Potter himself), but that doesn't prevent him from listening to Sirius. From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Dec 2 07:54:27 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 07:54:27 -0000 Subject: The magic power of love. Was: BANG! You're dead! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86290 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mad_maxime" wrote: > Mad Maxime: > > Kneasy, it seems to me you are overestimating Voldemort. Powerful as > he may be, he has made one fatal mistake after another. He seems to > routinely underestimate his opponents and his prejudices blind him in > ways that are detrimental to his health and well being. > Two things we can be certain of though - Voldemort does not seem > understand and/or underestimates the power of love, and he is most > definitely not invincible. Geoff: Look the other way Kneasy, I've got my cheerleader's togs on! Voldemort's weak points are just like those of Sauron in LOTR. I have said this before; Gandalf points out that one of Sauron's weak spots is that he cannot conceive of anyone wanting to destroy the Ring to rid Middle-Earth of it. He is looking for a scrap between the folk holding it and expects a new contender for the post of Dark Lord to be putting in an application form. (LOTR spoiler following) In the chapter where Frodo, Sam (and Gollum) reach the Sammath Naur and Frodo puts on the Ring to claim it, Sauron realises his flaw. "...and the magnitude of his folly was revealed to him in a blinding flash..." Maybe a pointer to Voldemort's weaknesses? Geoff From inky_quill at hotmail.com Tue Dec 2 06:44:34 2003 From: inky_quill at hotmail.com (Julie) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 06:44:34 -0000 Subject: Snape's Hiring Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86291 Hello, everyone. I've been lurking for months enjoying the really insightful and informative discussions on different aspects of the Harry Potter books. Many of you know the characters and books backwards and forwards, its amazing and a lot of fun to follow (and very humbling)! I've a question that I hope someone can help me with, regarding the end of Goblet of Fire and Order of the Phoenix. I've read each book several times (US edition), but can't seem to find the information. I've been told through another list that JKR clearly stated in O of P that Severus Snape's presence teaching at Hogwarts was ordered and approved of by Lord Voldemort in order to spy on Dumbledore. (She/he is emphatic that this is one more piece of evidence that Snape was at the rebirth in the graveyard and is really ultimately loyal to Voldemort and not Dumbledore.) I've looked and looked but I just can't find this information anywhere (nor conclusive proof that SS was at the cemetery). I would hate to think that I've misread such important points. Since many of you really know the books inside and out, would someone be willing to point me in the right direction to that passage in the book? Thanks, Julie From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Tue Dec 2 11:14:53 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 11:14:53 -0000 Subject: re #86292 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86293 I removed it myself. From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Tue Dec 2 11:18:35 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 11:18:35 -0000 Subject: Fwd: Harry's link to Riddle Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86294 --- In Hogwarts_or_Bust at yahoogroups.com, "jeffl1965" wrote: Do you think that the link between Harry and Riddle will become a bigger hinderance as time goes on? If it gets to the point where they can easily read each others thoughts, as well as emotions, won't that mean that at best they'll reach a stalemate during any battles? If that's the case, then will another have to help Harry defeat Riddle? I don't mean something along the lines of Captain Planet or something as silly where the members of DA unite as one to combine their powers. That's too cliche' and predictable. I *hope* that JKR is too smart to fall into such a trap. It's not that I want anybody to die, but I fear that as the series progresses, that we will see more deaths, and these young wizards will die, since they don't have the skills of the much older adults. Do you think that perhaps Neville will be the one to stand at Harry's side, since he's being hinted at being special as well? Or will Ron finally come into his own, and show a power that nobody expected? Will the helper die as a result, or will Harry, from a curse that can't be reversed, and the helper have to carry on for him? Jeff --- End forwarded message --- From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Tue Dec 2 11:20:27 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 11:20:27 -0000 Subject: Fwd: Re: (Hogwarts or Bust) Re: Harry's link to Riddle Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86295 --- In Hogwarts_or_Bust at yahoogroups.com, Myzty Myztrice wrote: It might happen. The prophecy said something like "one cannot survive with the other living" (self-rephrased). It did not state that they cannot die together. What I'm wondering about is that what if the link between Harry and Voldemort becomes so strong that their minds become truly connected (perhaps as one?) , so when one dies, the other dies too, when the brain dies... myzty. From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Tue Dec 2 11:21:33 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 11:21:33 -0000 Subject: Fwd: (Hogwarts or Bust) Re: Harry's link to Riddle Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86296 --- In Hogwarts_or_Bust at yahoogroups.com, "jeffl1965" wrote: Agreed. Riddle could become like Lockheart and become a babbling fool, no longer a threat to anyone. It would be a interesting outcome. Jeff --- In Hogwarts_or_Bust at yahoogroups.com, Earwen/Alanna wrote: > Y'know, I really don't think JKR would do that to us. I mean, there are tons of books/movies that kill the hero along with the bad guy, and so far she's gone against most of the steryotypes. I mean, what if she doesn't even have Harry kill the V-ster? She might just end the series with them both alive, after all. > > Myzty Myztrice wrote:To: Hogwarts_or_Bust at yahoogroups.com > From: Myzty Myztrice > Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 23:53:51 +0800 (CST) > Subject: Re: (Hogwarts or Bust) Re: Harry's link to Riddle > > It might happen. The prophecy said something like "one cannot survive with the other living" (self-rephrased). It did not state that they cannot die together. What I'm wondering about is that what if the link between Harry and Voldemort becomes so strong that their minds become truly connected (perhaps as one?) , so when one dies, the other dies too, when the brain dies... > > myzty. > > From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Tue Dec 2 11:22:03 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 11:22:03 -0000 Subject: Fwd: (Hogwarts or Bust) Re: Harry's link to Riddle Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86297 --- In Hogwarts_or_Bust at yahoogroups.com, "jeffl1965" wrote: Yes, the possibility exists. You're correct that it doesn't say they both must die, so it could happen. JKR only gives us enough information to tease us, so that when something happens, it takes a few re-reads to see that she hinted at it earlier. :) The link is what concerns me as well. Good people do bad things, so to say that Harry won't be forced to do something he doesn't want is being unrealistic. Chances are that as evil as Riddle is, he'll do *anything* he can to gain an advantage. The link he shares with Harry could very well increase as Riddle's powers increase. The chance that he can influence Harry's actions will also increase. How will Riddle's death affect Harry? That remains to be seen. I truly hope it won't be a negative one, but we'll have to see. Jeff --- In Hogwarts_or_Bust at yahoogroups.com, Myzty Myztrice wrote: > It might happen. The prophecy said something like "one cannot survive with the other living" (self-rephrased). It did not state that they cannot die together. What I'm wondering about is that what if the link between Harry and Voldemort becomes so strong that their minds become truly connected (perhaps as one?) , so when one dies, the other dies too, when the brain dies... > > myzty. > --- End forwarded message --- From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Tue Dec 2 11:23:25 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 11:23:25 -0000 Subject: Fwd: Re: Harry's link to Riddle Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86298 --- In Hogwarts_or_Bust at yahoogroups.com, "mausita24" wrote: I have to jump in here on this link thing. I was going to start a discussion about it at my group two weeks ago because we discussed it briefly at a meetup. The link between Harry and LV is possibly at its peak. Meaning, there was a hint of it in SS (Harry's scar hurting when he saw Quirrell after LV possessed him), it became stronger when LV returned to England with Wormtail (Harry's dream of/presence at Frank Bryce's murder ) and it strengthened after LV used Harry's blood in his revival potion (all the instance in OOP). Making their link stronger is the fact that now Lily's blood also flows in LV. Does this give him a link to Petunia and Dudley as well??? Dumbledore is the one that 'sealed' Harry's protection. As long as he is where his mother's blood flows (home), he is safe. Has LV done himself the ultimate disservice by using Harry's blood? The prophecy states that "...one must die at the hand of the other... neither can live while the other survives..." Too true. Harry is stuck with the Dursleys, even though it is now only no more than two months out of the year, as long as LV is alive. This is no life. He is stifled when he is there. LV will stop at nothing to get him, so he's always got to look over his shoulder. That is no life. On the other hand, LV cannot live either. His obsession with Harry is keeping him from his initial goal of 'wizard domination'. He can't achieve it until Harry is dead. So, he's not living either. Marci (who will write more on this later) From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Tue Dec 2 11:23:55 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 11:23:55 -0000 Subject: Fwd: Re: Harry's link to Riddle Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86299 --- In Hogwarts_or_Bust at yahoogroups.com, "jeffl1965" wrote: --- In AdultHPFanatics at yahoogroups.com, "Marci" wrote: > I have to jump in here on this link thing. I was going to start a > discussion about it at my group two weeks ago because we discussed it > briefly at a meetup. > Jeff: I guess great minds think alike? :) I can assure you I've never been to any meetups, and I'm not sure if I'm a member of your group, so, I didn't borrow your idea. :) > The link between Harry and LV is possibly at its peak. Meaning, > there was a hint of it in SS (Harry's scar hurting when he saw > Quirrell after LV possessed him), it became stronger when LV returned > to England with Wormtail (Harry's dream of/presence at Frank Bryce's > murder ) and it strengthened after LV used Harry's blood in his > revival potion (all the instance in OOP). > > Making their link stronger is the fact that now Lily's blood also > flows in LV. Does this give him a link to Petunia and Dudley as > well??? Dumbledore is the one that 'sealed' Harry's protection. As > long as he is where his mother's blood flows (home), he is safe. Has > LV done himself the ultimate disservice by using Harry's blood? > Jeff: That's a good point, and one that I was trying to make,but was getting razzed at by a certain person who is too focused on the wrong things about Harry, including some ideas that JKR has never mentioned or even denied. In OOtP, we see how much stronger the link is, and that it's getting to a very dangerous level. I fear that if proximity has anything to do with it, and LV is once again hiding in the forest, then Harry will have hell for the next two years, and I shudder what to think will happen when he's at home. :( As I tried to point out, Harry lost the protection of not being touched by LV with his attack on Quirell. Assuming that LV can alter his appearance with a potion as well, how close can he get to Harry now? Will the scar be enough? And what if LV *does* enter the Dursley home, in disguise? I agree that having Lily's blood will most likely affect DD's protection as well, to a certain point, but how far, I cannot say. I do agree with you that somethings have changed with LV having some of that blood in him. What all the effects will be remains to be seen. > The prophecy states that "...one must die at the hand of the other... > neither can live while the other survives..." Too true. Harry is > stuck with the Dursleys, even though it is now only no more than two > months out of the year, as long as LV is alive. This is no life. He > is stifled when he is there. LV will stop at nothing to get him, so > he's always got to look over his shoulder. That is no life. On the > other hand, LV cannot live either. His obsession with Harry is > keeping him from his initial goal of 'wizard domination'. He can't > achieve it until Harry is dead. So, he's not living either. > > Marci (who will write more on this later) > > Jeff: Agreed. Right now, they're *both* at a sort of crossroads. Neither is really living, as you say, and yet the do need each other for now. I'm guessing that they're feeding off of each other, and we're seeing Harry gaining new powers as he siphons off of LV more and more. That could be the one factor that is keeping LV from reaching full strength earlier. Notice that it wasn't until Harry started at Hogwarts and was *knowingly* using his powers that LV was really able to gain a body. There's much more to this link that we're guessing. I'm sure that whatever it is, it's going to be a good one. :) But I am sure that we must be close. I know that my guess that Arthur Weasley was going to Azkaban to see Sirius Black was very close. I didn't know about his connection to the Order, but now I can see that's what the reasoning was, to keep him informed on Harry as well as what the Order was planning. Maybe between the two of us, we can get close on this as well. ;) Jeff --- End forwarded message --- From tcyhunt at earthlink.net Tue Dec 2 13:40:02 2003 From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (Tracy Hunt) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 13:40:02 -0000 Subject: Lupin's untainted chocolate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86300 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Diana" wrote: > snapesmate wrote: > Also I have read a post that mentioned > > Lupin handing out tainted chocolate. I do not recall canon that > says > > the chocolate was "tainted". Am I drawing a blank on that as well? > > Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice > > guy! > > Diana (me) writes: > > Here is the quote from PoA: [Set Up: Lupin has handed out chocolate > to all the students in the train car with him after driving away the > dementor. Too embarrassed about collapsing from the dementor's > effects, Harry hasn't eaten his chocolate yet.) > > QUOTE: Professor Lupin had come back. He paused as he entered, > looking around, and said, with a small smile, "I haven't poisoned > that cholocat, you know..." > Harry took a bit and to his great surprise felt warmth spread > suddently to the tips of his fingers and toes.END QUOTE > > The chocolate was NOT tainted, but another poster used this incident > and Lupin's light-hearted comment as grounds for the theory that > several red herrings suggesting that Lupin wasn't a good guy were > placed throughout the book purposefully by JKR. The point of these > red herrings was that when Lupin embraced Black in the Shrieking > Shack, the reader (along with Harry) would be equally stunned by > Lupin's appearing to be in leaque with the presumed-evil Black. Tcy: There have been many posts by many posters positing that Lupin is less than angelic. The (I believe) original post that questioned the purity of the chocolate given to the kids on the train is Pippin's post #39562 (from June, 2002) which introduced us to LYCANTHROPE (Lupin Yields Candy, A Nasty Trick, He's Really, Obviously, Perfectly Evil). So, the canon never says for sure that the chocolate is 'tainted' - however, like most theories here, there is canon to support the possibility. Tcy (who will never succumb to Pippin's ESE!Lupin theory -- unless JKR makes her) From entropymail at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 13:56:28 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 13:56:28 -0000 Subject: Inevitability of Prophecy (was: Prophecy Correct) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86301 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Diana" wrote: The prophecy had to have been overheard and leaked to Voldemort so that Voldemort would attack Harry resulting in Voldemort marking Harry as his equal......So, the prophecy exists in order to cause action and produce results that, in turn, cause the prophecy to become true. So, because those who heard the prophecy believed it to be true, they act on the info contained within and MADE it come true. Entropy: Well, maybe not. The prophecy may remain independent of the results. That is, if you believe in prophecy, then you believe in the inevitability of fate. No matter who heard (or did not hear) the prophecy, or who acted upon it, the end results would never change. Even if the path to those results had been changed, the characters would have eventually ended up in the same place anyway. The centaurs seem to take this view of prophecy. Once something has been prophesized by the centaurs, they seem to believe it will happen no matter what. Dumbledore, however, does not. In putting Harry in Petunia's care and, later, his own care at Hogwart's, he may be trying to delay Voldemort's attack on Harry, perhaps allowing time for Harry's powers to become stronger and change the prophesized future. :: Entropy :: From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Dec 2 14:13:38 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 14:13:38 -0000 Subject: Snape's Hiring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86302 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Julie" wrote: > (snippage) Julie: > I've a question that I hope someone can help me with, regarding the > end of Goblet of Fire and Order of the Phoenix. (more snippage) > I've read each book several times (US edition), but can't seem to > find the information. I've been told through another list that JKR > clearly stated in O of P that Severus Snape's presence teaching at > Hogwarts was ordered and approved of by Lord Voldemort in order to > spy on Dumbledore. (She/he is emphatic that this is one more piece > of evidence that Snape was at the rebirth in the graveyard and is > really ultimately loyal to Voldemort and not Dumbledore.) > >> Julie I've heard this posited elsewhere too and think it is incorrect. It is impossible that Snape's appointment had anything to do with being at the behest of Voldemort and I refer you to his exchange with Umbridge in OOP as canonical evidence. Exact quote not certain but he states he has been a teacher for 14 years at that point. This means he was appointed AFTER the fall of Voldemort - I calculate he commenced on the September after LV's fall. QED Voldemort had no impact on his appointment. As a result he is not there primarily as a spy for LV. He may well now be loyal to LV (Though I believe not) but he was not placed there by LV - it just doesn't add up. Incidentally is the post you are referring to the famous "Apothecary's son" post? Which also stated that Snape cannot be of "smart" background because he swears and spits? I assure anyone that rude behaviour does not preclude anyone from membership of the British upper classes. (Just another point). June From entropymail at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 14:27:10 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 14:27:10 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans vs. Dudley Dursley (was Mark Evans - evans, Evans, EVANS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86303 : Pipsqueak: But she didn't pick that type of surname for Lily. With all the possibilities - the place names where everyone is from the same small area, the names derived from famous families, the names derived from one small family who immigrated to England centuries ago ... she picked 'Evans'...And one thing we know about JKR - she picks character names with great care. Carol: Mark is either a Muggle-born wizard presumably related to Lily because of the coincidence of names and exactly the right age to attend Hogwarts next year or a Muggle red herring with whom JKR has chosen to tease us. I know I can't convince you, but IMO the first option is much more likely. Pipsqueak: Dumbledore refers to the Dursley's as Harry's only family. Now me: Perhaps Dumbledore referred to the Dursleys as Harry's only living family, but meant his only living *magical* family. Could there be someone in this dismal family who actually has any magical ability? Vernon Dursley? Yuck. Definitely not. Petunia? Perhaps...but after her speech regarding her her "special" sister, Lily, it's kind of doubtful. She's far too jealous of Lily's magical ability to have any of her own. But Dudley? Hmmm... Let's think about how awful it would be for Petunia, who has come to hate the entire magical world and everyone in it, to give birth to a magical little Duddykins. What would she do? Well, for starters, she would make sure that no one, even Dudley, found out about that magical ability. How would she do this? Think about all of the times that Harry's magical ability accidently "popped out" and showed itself. It was always during times when he was angry, frustrated, and furious. (Petunia may have experienced similar "accidents" from her sister while the two girls were growing up). So, in order to keep Dudley's little secret, she will simply have to make sure that he is never, ever unhappy. That is, give him every single thing he ever wants. Cater to his every wish. Allow him every opportunity to behave in whatever foul, selfish, gluttonous way he wishes. If he's never unhappy, his magic will never "pop out." Problem solved. As for Mark Evans? Could be a distant cousin. Could be a *magical* distant cousin born to the Muggle Evans family. I agree that the age of ten is a very significant one. For one thing, he wasn't born during the first war, when Dumbledore was looking for a home for Harry. If this other magical cousin had been alive at the time, Harry may have ended up with a far nicer adoptive family. For another thing, he's just coming upon the age of Hogwarts eligibility. Seems very JKR-ish to name a character in one book, then reveal him (by showing up under next year's Sorting Hat, perhaps?) in the next book. :: Entropy :: From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Tue Dec 2 14:31:58 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 08:31:58 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Some points in OOP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c3b8e1$0ebd5f70$1396aec7@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 86304 > Carol > >Responding to my own post here--oh, my! The furry-faced woman who >barks! (OoP 512 Am. ed.) If she *is* Snape's mother, given his >animosity toward werewolves and other, er, aberrations (and a certain >Animagus who turns into a dog), her condition must be humiliating for >him. And if despite all that, he goes to visit her and gives her >Christmas presents rather than denying her existence, then fifty >points for Severus. And fifty more for Neville if he knows about it >and keeps his mouth shut. But I don't know what to hope now, except >that someone finds a cure for poor Agnes, regardless of who her son >is. But if Snape can't find the right potion, who can? > Iggy here: Let's take this one step further and try to combine some of the theories: What is part of Snape's problem with werewolves doesn't only come from the prank almost played by the Marauders... but what if Agnes *is* his mother, and she attempted to use the Polyjuice to emulate someone she didn't know was a werewolf? (We've seen the effect on Hermione with the cat hair. What if the magical/infectious nature of werewolves makes the situation into what we saw in Agnes, and permanent...) This may be part of his intolerance, for werewolves *and* for sloppy potion work... especially if, when he was a DE, he convinced her to do it for some reason and feels that her condition is, ultimately, *his* fault. This would also give him a very good reason to leave the DE's... even more so if he was ordered by LV to use his mom in what Snape thought would be something harmless at the time. His actions as a DE would have directly affected someone he loves. Just my two centaurs worth... Iggy McSnurd From angelofthenorth at cantab.net Tue Dec 2 13:14:42 2003 From: angelofthenorth at cantab.net (Angel Moules) Date: 02 Dec 2003 13:14:42 +0000 Subject: Is Agnes Snape's Mother? (WAS: some points in OOP) Message-ID: <1070370886.15914.2.camel@Bujold_RH> No: HPFGUIDX 86305 sunnylove0 at a... wrote:> 2) Agnes, the lady in St. Mungo's, who is told by the healer that> her son is > dropping by that night, and in the very next chapter Snape is in his> good > traveling cloak and repeatedly says he has somewhere else to be (of> course it > could be wanting to get away from Sirius or a DE meeting, but....) ************ I think this works. My own suspicion though, is based on the fact that when someone knows something they oughtn't - like Harry knowing about the Pensieve - they get blanked. When Snape holds a mere grudge, then he's a nasty piece of work. Which brings me to this. The man in the pensieve, is Snape's father, and for this hypothesis, I'm saying he's a DE. I suspect that his mother is innocent, and the potions whizzkid. The Longbottoms raid the Snape house, while Agnes is brewing, and arrest Snape Senior. Agnes' work is interrupted, and we find that we have something of a 'Fire and the Rose' situation. She is rendered into a dog. Which makes me wonder if part of the reason for the Longbottom's madness is revenge for an injury inflicted on one of their own, who happened to be innocent Angel wanders off, wondering whether JKR has been to Burton Agnes Hall, where one of the ghosts is the grey lady. Burton Agnes is the only village in England, where the name of the village derives from a personal first name, rather than that of a saint of the local church. From blackgold101 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 16:30:47 2003 From: blackgold101 at yahoo.com (Marci) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 16:30:47 -0000 Subject: Snape's intolerance (was: Some points in OOP) In-Reply-To: <000001c3b8e1$0ebd5f70$1396aec7@Einstein> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86306 "IggyMcSnurd" wrote: > > Carol > > > >Responding to my own post here--oh, my! The furry-faced woman who > >barks! (OoP 512 Am. ed.) If she *is* Snape's mother, given his > >animosity toward werewolves and other, er, aberrations (and a certain > >Animagus who turns into a dog), her condition must be humiliating for > >him. > Iggy here: > > Let's take this one step further and try to combine some of the > theories: > > What is part of Snape's problem with werewolves doesn't only come from > the prank almost played by the Marauders... > Just my two centaurs worth... > > Iggy McSnurd My turn: Did I miss something? I did not think Snape's intolerance was with all werewolves and 'dogs' but just ones in particular; Remus and Sirius, and probably more due to their closeness with his nemesis, James. Now if he truly hates all werewolves, could that be another pointed added on to the speculation that he might be a vampire? And I must add that the connection made to Agnes was a very good catch indeed! Acronym for that theory anyone? Marci From rredordead at aol.com Tue Dec 2 16:59:38 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 16:59:38 -0000 Subject: Snape Poisioning the Longbottoms? Was: Is Agnes Snape's Mother? In-Reply-To: <1070370886.15914.2.camel@Bujold_RH> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86307 > sunnylove0 at a... wrote:> > Agnes, the lady in St. Mungo's, who is > told by the healer that her son is dropping by that night, and in the very next chapter Snape is in his good traveling cloak and repeatedly says he has somewhere else to be > Angel wrote: > I think this works. The man in the pensieve, is Snape's father. The Longbottoms raid the Snape house, while Agnes is brewing, and arrest Snape Senior. Agnes' work is interrupted, She is rendered into a dog. Which makes me wonder if part of the reason for the Longbottom's madness is revenge for an injury inflicted on one of their own, who happened to be innocent. Now me: Great catch Sunnylove. Very interesting. I also think it works and I would like to add to Angel theory the idea that Severus Snape is actively keeping the Longbottoms incapacitated and hospitalized. If it was the Longbottoms who raided the Snape household and chaos ensued and Mrs. Snape was injured badly and Mr. Snape arrested or even killed? Would it be enough of an incentive for the vindictive Severus to keep the Longbottoms mad as revenge. We know he didn't put the Longbottoms in St. Mungos originally but if suddenly found them lying in bed next to his mother...the temptation to extract revenge on them would be huge and it wouldn't take much to keep slipping poison in to their food, water, plant...etc. Could this be one of the 3 silver thread secrets Snape pulled out of his head and put into the Pensive in OotP? Could Snape keep these actions from Dumbledore? We know how skilled Snape is in Occulmency but is Dumbledore a better Ligitimens? Is Snape that vindictive? Even if Snape's parents were casualties of the war and even if Snape blames himself for his parents being injured by Aurors, I still don't see this as enough of an incentive for Snape to switch sides. If anything it would make him more loyal to LV. However your theory doesn't prevent something else happing to Snape which ultimately made join Dumbledore. I'd love for this theory to be chewed on for a while. If anyone else has any thoughts.... Mandy. From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Dec 2 17:02:50 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 17:02:50 -0000 Subject: Harry's ideal ending & my idea of a horrible ending In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86308 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > BTW, is there any evidence in canon for wizards losing their powers? I think that would be a tragic loss for Harry. Loss of fame, though, won't hurt him a bit. I think he can be "Just Harry" without giving up the WW.< Canon references to wizards losing their powers: SS/PS Ch. 4 "Most of us reckon he's still out there somewhere but lost his powers." COS Ch. 17 "No one knows why you lost your powers when you attacked me." PoA Ch. 10 "Dementors are supposed to drain a wizard of his powers if he is left with them too long..." PoA Ch. 19 "You weren't about to commit murder right under Albus Dumbledore's nose, for a wreck of a wizard who'd lost all of his power, were you?" And Malfoy says something like, "Your dad likes Muggles so much he ought to snap his wand in two and go join them" but I can't remember the reference. LOONS? Pippin From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Dec 2 18:14:19 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (B Arrowsmith) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 18:14:19 +0000 Subject: Bang! You're dead. Message-ID: <58F87BEC-24F3-11D8-B41E-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86309 I started contributing to this thread a few days ago when I suspected a dearth of contrary views being expressed. The thread seemed to be formed by posters who were anti-killing as a matter of principle, or considered that Harry should not kill, or that he could kill, but not with an AK since this would make him as bad as Voldemort. There didn't seem to be anyone of the FEATHERBOA persuasion happy in indulge in mayhem, scattering bodies hither and yon and not giving a damn who did the dirty just so long as it was a satisfying conclusion. Things seem to have moved on a bit since then. We're now seeing a bit less morality and a bit more canon. There also seems to be a consensus view being formed, though with some notable exceptions. I find this deeply disturbing. As a natural contrarian a consensus is the last thing I want; it's a very depressing development. And if you don't all buck your ideas up and start disagreeing I shall have to take drastic steps and dig into my stock of contentious issues for something else to provoke the fans with and hopefully to cause outrage and raised blood pressure. Be warned; Kneasy is only happy when he causes other fans to fly to their keyboards in a "We'll soon see about that!" frame of mind. Hopefully, this thread is not yet exhausted. I may yet be able to salvage some perverse satisfaction by contradicting the accepted canon or beliefs of well-meaning posters. This is going to be a long post, an attempt to respond to those that have been made over the past 24 hours. It may be unwieldly, but it's marginally better than responding to each individually and things getting lost in the shuffle. (clips to all quotes) First up: Nora: Because means matter. In several ethical systems one might apply (from the real world, gasp!), but also the comments from canon discussed previously. It's notable that the Aurors were authorized to use these curses because they normally would not have been; one can view it not as saying 'Oh, but it's actually alright now', but as a concession to necessity that doesn't ameliorate their wrongness. I like Moody. He's interesting, and a good foil. He certainly has blood on his hands. But he also is described as being one of the ones who tried to capture and not to kill--a distinction worth noting. I think JKR has written in, and is examining, moral concepts--and I think she's made it pretty clear that both means and intention *matter*. Kneasy: I don't subscribe to "the ends justify the means" school either. Or not often - it all depends on the ends that are envisaged and what means are either available or likely to be efficacious. If that sounds like a cop out it's probably because I approach the problem from a slightly different angle. The key question to Harry IMO is 'Are you willing to kill in whatever the prevailing circumstances are at the time?' That is the crunch question. If the answer is 'yes' then the moral and ethical criteria have been dealt with from Harry's point of view; what's left are the practicalities. Once he decides that he can willingly encompass the destruction of Voldemort all else fades in comparison. Intention is everything, means are a detail. Whatever means he uses will make no difference from Voldemorts viewpoint - and he'll be the injured (or mortified) party. He'd be equally pissed off no matter which method Harry used. I've had discussions off site where I've pointed out that killing may be an ethical question but murder is interpreted by legal means. It is a socially defined crime. The Aurors were told that the definition did not apply to their actions in certain circumstances. Such exclusions are made in the real world too and so long as the circumstances are as envisaged I have no objections. Moody obviously tried to maintain the spirit as well as the letter of the law; he didn't kill gratuitously. What more could one ask for? JKR does seem to have a moral viewpoint (though many of the questions exercising posters are yet to be resolved or even clarified), but she is not writing about the real world; this is a very different world and it wouldn't surprise me if some of the answers were a bit different too. Nora: I also think it's notable that Harry's Crucio didn't work particularly well. Lack of practice perhaps, but also a lack of true will/intention; he wanted to hurt her on one level, but on another, I think he didn't have it in him to truly hurt another human being like that. (Carol voices this opinion, too.) Kneasy: Sorry. According to canon it's a life sentence for "using any one of them on a fellow human being" - being bad at it doesn't seem to be a mitigating circumstance. And I think Harry would use them in certain circumstances; I don't seem to be the only one either. The first thing Lupin did on entering the Shrieking Shack was to disarm Harry. If Harry had known about the Unforgivables at the time, who knows what might have happened? Nora: How about: I may be wrong, and I may be uncertain, but I know what I'm uncertain about and why? -Nora slides a peace offering beer down the bar to Kneasy, and hopes that all this talk of 'morality' isn't excessively offensive Kneasy: Ooooh! Uncertain? Never! Wash your mouth out (with beer for preference). Whatever happens I shall go down with the ship. (But not SHIP; can't stand 'em.) Berit replies: But are there any canon evidence to suggest that the majority of WW accepted that it was a necessary "evil" that the Aurors used the unforgivables (I can believe this though; the majority very often go with the flow...)? Any canon to suggest that the old Order found it okay? (GoF p. 457 UK edition): "Terror everywhere.... panic.... confusion... that's how it used to be. Well, things like that bring out the best in some people and the worst in others. Crouch's principles might've been good in the beginning - I wouldn't know. He rose quickly through the Ministry and he started ordering very harsh measures against Voldemort's supporters. The Aurors were given new powers - powers to kill rather than capture for instance. And I wasn't the only one who was handed straight to the Dementors without trial. Crouch fought violence with violence and authorised the use of the Unforgiveable Curses against suspects. I would say he became as ruthless and cruel as many on the Dark side." And: "I'll say this for Moody, though, he never killed if he could help. Always brought people in alive where possible. He was tough but he never descended to the level of the Death Eaters." (GoF p.462) When a rash and potentially violent character like Sirius saw the problems of Crouch's decision, forcing his Aurors to "descend to the level of Death Eaters", do you really think Dumbledore didn't object? If so I want to know when, according to canon, Dumbledore started to become more "blood-thirsty" than Sirius :-)) Kneasy: Circumstantial evidence maybe. But some circumstantial evidence, like a trout in the milk, is very compelling. There is no canon that I can find that mentions a counter-faction to Crouch's measures. When discussing the subject with Harry, don't you think Sirius would have mentioned one, if it existed? If Dumbledore did have objections, then he has gone down in my estimation. Not for objecting, but for not going public and causing a fuss. (If he had done so I'm sure we would have heard of it by now.) To my mind he would have been trying to have his cake and eating it too, if that was his stance. Has he no principles that he will publicly stand up for? Deploring methods in private, taking advantage of them in public seems a bit hypocritical. Just what did the old Order achieve? Anything? We hear of no successes at all, just a string of dead members. I'll bet that the other members were quite relieved that *somebody* was knocking off the opposition - it was the members that were in the firing line after all. Where was DD in all this? Did he put his own neck on the line? Sirius. What can I say? If he had been an Auror would he have killed? Probably; and then agonised and demanded sympathy for his lacerated conscience ever after. Certainly he'd have killed Peter, I think. Perhaps he should think himself lucky that he was taken alive and not zapped down in the street. Though that would have curtailed the tale somewhat. Geoff takes a more pragmatic view, based on real events in the real world: The suggestion from Sirius was that Crouch was prepared to indulge in the use of the Unforgiveables as a matter of course and appeared to enjoy it. He was also responsible for sending folk to Azkaban without a trial, knowing what that particualr hellhole was like - (reminds me of some of the internment problems in Northern Ireland a decade ro so ago). Kneasy: I can understand this view very easily (particularly as I was on duty in a Birmingham hospital the night of the '74 pub bombings.) The public demands that something be done - *now*. Civil rights go out of the window and Draconian measures are passed with a will, none daring to say nay. In hindsight it's easy to decry the actions and the attitudes, but when you're fighting a terrorist war and the pile of innocent dead mounts ever higher with no end in sight.... This, I imagine is how the WW was. This was not a chivalrous conflict with rules of engagement that everyone understood, Voldy and his gang was out there, killing, subverting, destroying society; no one was safe. Geoff: Moody is like many people in a war situation; the implication is that he /did/ kill but only as a last resort. I can understand that. I can agree with Christians in the Confessing Church in Germany who were prepared to join in the 1944 conspiracy against Hitler because it seemed to be the only thing to stop the Nazis going into oblivion and pulling the whole country down with them. But there is a difference between those folk who allow themselves to be drawn in the direction of the evil which they fight and replace one form of oppression with another - Communist Russia for example - with those who reluctantly take that path because they echo Luther's words "Here I stand, I can do no other". Kneasy: Well put. And I'll add a quote that was made by one of the enemy: "It might or might not be right to kill, but sometimes it is necessary." Gerry Adams PIRA. Sauce for the goose... Carol: Notice that Mad Eye Moody did NOT use them (except possibly against Rosier in self-defence after hed had lost a piece of his nose), and that Dumbledore approves of that choice. There were other ways to bring the DEs to justice. As for Old Barty, he's not exactly the person to use as a moral example, is he? Kneasy: Well, Moody did use the AK. At least, Sirius says so. But only when necessary, so that's all right, isn't it? I doubt Barty was trying to set a moral example. A judge is not there to pronounce on morals but on actions against the common good. Trying to save a society and destroy a pestilence by means that may not be acceptable in normal times is a justifiable moral stance so far as the majority at risk are concerned, I doubt that the 'rights' of the DEs were considered by anyone. Carol: Imposter!Moody (who of course has no conscience whatever) uses all three unforgiveable curses on spiders and the Imperius curse on his students, the second hint that he's evil (the first is turning Draco into a ferret). (Note his indifference not only to the suffering of the spiders but to the psychological pain he was inflicting on Neville.) Imposter!Moody claims that he has Dumbledore's permission to do demonstrate the curses and no one questions him, but I think this statement was a lie given Dumbledore's view of the curses and McGonagall's earlier warning to Moody that teachers were not allowed to perform transfiguration on students (GoF, 206 Am. ed.). If teachers can't perform transfiguration on students, then certainly they can't perfom an illegal curse on them, either. Kneasy: I prefer to believe that DD did know about it, and approved. How else could he get Harry protected against the Imperio! curse? No way could such a lesson be kept secret from the rest of the school; it'd be all round the common-rooms by that evening. Besides, Crouch!Moody states that he's not supposed to *show* (my emphasis) them what illegal Dark curses are like until the sixth year. So demonstrations are part of the DADA course, it seems. He was just premature. And McGonagall says that students are not transfigured *as a punishment*, not that they must never be transfigured. Though I rather like the idea, turn Slytherin into lemmings and organise a day trip to the beach. Do spiders feel pain? Not much, if at all. Certainly some male spiders get their heads chewed off without protest. Carol again: I like that little admission. Nice touch. :-) As for Dumbledore not taking an immovable moral stand, I suppose he feels that he needs to make compromises when Hogwarts and the WW are in danger. I'll have to think about that some more and come up with more quotes. Kneasy: Oho! Cracks in the facade of the great incorruptible? > Kneasy: > Fine. But doesn't canon state that there is no defence against an AK? > No blocking it, no counter-curse. Carol again: But Harry DID block it, effortlessly, as an infant of fifteen months, much as he instinctively blocked Snape's attempt to read his most private thoughts with a shield charm. Maybe what is true for other wizards isn't true for him because he's Voldemort's equal. Kneasy: Something blocked it. But I notice Harry would rather not have to rely on it happening again; in the graveyard he's ducking and diving all over the place. Voldy seems to think it'll work this time, too. Maybe it's like a "Get out of goal free" card: you can only use it once. Besides, my response was to a comment you made about Voldy attacking Harry *or a friend*. I was just pointing out that it doesn't seem possible to protect against an AK. Carol: Yes, because it didn't succeed. (The Crucio! curse) It was not only a failed tactic but a moral mistake and I'm sure Dumbledore will make that quite clear to him in future books. JKR has already made it clear that it would have been wrong to murder Peter Pettigrew, at least in his human form (Padfoot and Crookshanks eating him might be another matter). If so, it's equally wrong to Crucio Bellatrix, however much she deserves a taste of her own medicine. (Let Voldemort do it.) Kneasy: Spoilsport! Peter wasn't murdered because he still has a key part to play (annoying how these authors can twist things for their own ends). Carol: I agree that Harry (like everyone else in the book) has some serious character flaws--partly the consequence of his age and background, partly the result of the spell that backfired, partly just human nature. The point, I think, is that he must overcome those flaws (along with many other obstacles) before he can bring down Voldemort. Kneasy: Please! I can't see Harry as a parfait gentle knight, spotless in thought, word and deed. I suspect that his faults plus those bits of Voldy buried in there somewhere are necessary for his eventual triumph, even though he may not be around to celebrate. Carol again: I can see your point here and I've revised my theory (above) to include cold indifference regarding the AK. But the other two, especially Crucio, are probably never justified in JKR's view. There are plenty of other spells available to hinder an opponent, notably shield charms, Expelliarmus and Stubefy (correctly pronounced). I wouldn't mind seeing Harry hit LV with a combination of Expelliarmus and Tarantellegra (if Harry's wand will work against its brother). But Crucio is another matter altogether. Kneasy: Always dodgy to pre-empt an author. You're giving hostages to fortune. But I agree that Crucio! is probably never justified, except maybe in the field of research, perhaps. Like finding out if Bella really does have a nervous system. Which raises another point - now he is totally construct, why should Voldy react the same way to spells as a flesh and blood human? Arcum: While I think they'd probably wave the charges if Tom was killed by AK, I feel it is more a matter of not stooping to their level. A bit of dialogue I recall from PS/SS: "You flatter me," said Dumbledore calmly. "Voldemort had powers I will never have." "Only because you're too -- well -- noble to use them." I feel this would cover the unforgivables as well. You may note that Harry has been called noble no less then 3 times by Dobby, and was told he did a noble thing by Dumbledore in PoA. Kneasy: Now that's an interesting quote; what if DD was speaking the literal truth? That Voldy does have extra powers. Isn't he always going on about how wonderful truth is, and note, he doesn't say *use* powers (which is how the reponder understands it), but *have* powers. Arcum: I'd like to point out that we have no canon of Moody having used the unforgivable curses as of yet. While he didn't manage to bring in all the DE's he fought alive, there are many other ways he could have killed them. Keep in mind that none of the unforgivables in GoF were done by Moody. And I do think most of the Aurors using unforgivables were bad ones. Keep in mind it wasn't limited to AK'ing. They could also use Crucio and Imperio. Kneasy: Oh, dear. An Auror, wand in hand, facing a foaming at the mouth DE and he turns to alternative methods of killing? Do you really mean that? I have this wonderful vision of Moody beating him to death with his wooden leg (yes, I know he probably didn't have it yet, but the image is irresistible). Arcum: Also, I don't really think the whole bit with Bella was a red herring. What she said seemed both consistant with what Crouch has said about the unforgivables, AK in particular: "Avada Kedavra's a curse that needs a powerful bit of magic behind it - you could all get your wands out now and point them at me and say the words, and I doubt I'd get so much as a nosebleed." She hasn't really had time to come up with a clever lie, IMHO. You'll notice that the moment when he casts Crucio is when she drops the baby talk and starts taking him seriously. Kneasy: Yes, I too think you need to be a powerful wizard to get the spells to work and Harry isn't there yet. (So Harry is not Voldy's equal yet, either.) I feel it goes against the grain to rely on someone like Bella, especially in those circumstances, for definitive canon. Yes, she probably believed that Harry would not be able to produce one at all, the fact that he can, although only a partial success, changed her view of Harry. He just might be able to do some damage after all, so get him to change his tactics, is the way I'd read it. Arcum: On another note, why does most of the information thus far about unforgivables come from DEs? Kneasy: Hmm. Isn't that interesting. How is this to be read? That baddies lie and to expect alterations to the canon in later books? Usually it's the hero's friends or mentors that do the exposition of how plot devices work. Could it be that DD will come along and tell Harry he's got it all wrong? Is this cheating on the part of the author? Boo! Hiss! Not fair! Thanks for taking the trouble to sort out the references; very useful. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Tue Dec 2 18:50:17 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 07:50:17 +1300 Subject: Query Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031203074858.00a63860@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 86310 Looking for the year that Dumbledore began as headmaster at Hogwarts for a theory of mine. Is there a timeline that shows this? Thanks, Tanya From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Dec 2 18:52:15 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 18:52:15 -0000 Subject: Lupin's untainted chocolate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86311 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tracy Hunt" wrote: > Tcy: > There have been many posts by many posters positing that Lupin is less than angelic. The (I believe) original post that questioned the purity of the chocolate given to the kids on the train is Pippin's post #39562 (from June, 2002) which introduced us to LYCANTHROPE > (Lupin Yields Candy, A Nasty Trick, He's Really, Obviously, Perfectly Evil).< > > So, the canon never says for sure that the chocolate is 'tainted' - > however, like most theories here, there is canon to support the > possibility. Just to clarify, my theory is not that the chocolate itself was tainted. But JKR may be deliberately evoking the sinister urban folklore of the stranger with his bag of candy. When I was growing up children were constantly being told they should not, under any circumstances, accept candy from a stranger, especially not one who seemed to know more about them than he should, and in a situation, like a train trip, where no parent was likely to intervene. The ostensible reason was that the candy might be poisoned, that being the only reason that most parents and teachers were willing to discuss. If ESE!Lupin proves out, the incident is the kind that we can look back on and see foreshadowing, as we now do with the Grim=death omen scenes. Even though the black dog Harry sees is not the Grim, the association with death omens turned out to be highly significant. In the same way, even though Lupin is not trying to poison anybody in that scene, it may be significant that there are sinister associations attached to his actions. Pippin From sunnylove0 at aol.com Tue Dec 2 18:59:46 2003 From: sunnylove0 at aol.com (sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 13:59:46 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Some points in OOP Message-ID: <10e.2996e12b.2cfe3b22@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86313 Well, great. I just read the chapter closer, and some days elapse between the night on the closed ward and the argument between Sirius and Snape. Still, it's an interesting theory. Amber [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 19:11:22 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 19:11:22 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans - evans, Evans, EVANS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86314 > Pip!Squeak: > Harry wants a family; he is > now aware of his mother's maiden name. Is he going to develop an > interest in Mark Evans? If Mark Evans does turn up at Hogwarts, > isn't he going to be *sure* that Mark is a long lost relative? Carol: Interesting idea. At least we've got you believing that he'll probably show up at Hogwarts! The parallels between his behavior and Harry's are also interesting--both bullied by Dudley and both standing up to him. Harry is sure to take an interest in the little guy--a muggle-born wizard from the Dursleys' neighborhood who happens to have his mother's former last name--even if he's not a relative. But I'm betting that he is, and that we'll know it immediately by the green eyes, which we've been promised will be significant. Evans may be a common name, but magical Muggle-born Evanses with brilliant green eyes are not quite so common. (Yes, I'm speculating, but the speculation is based on evidence from the books and the interviews.) > bboy_mn: > I still like the idea of Mark Evans knocking on Harry's door one day > during the summer carrying a letter from Hogwarts requesting that > Harry help Mark go to Diagon Alley and pick up his school supplies, > and help him get aboard the train for school. I can see lots of > hi-jinx coming out of that. But that's just me. I like that idea, too. It seems more probable than having Hagrid show up to help Mark, which we wouldn't find out till after the fact anyway because of Harry's POV. I can just picture Uncle Vernon's and Dudley's expressions as they open the door and see that familiar envelope in Mark's hand, especially if he has Harry's eyes. Dudley is too stupid to notice such details, but Uncle Vernon will see it immediately IMO. Poor petunia, guilty of having such relatives and letting them come openly to the door! Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 19:23:08 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 19:23:08 -0000 Subject: Propehcy correct/Neville never could be the one -Correction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86315 Diana: > To clarify my point I wanted to correct myself. I actually got the > wrong word - I wanted self-fulfilling, not paradox. Typing faster > than I was thinking on that one. Sheesh! > > The prophecy had to have been overheard and leaked to Voldemort so > that Voldemort would attack Harry resulting in Voldemort marking > Harry as his equal. The attack also gave Harry the gift of > parseltongue and probably other powers we've yet to see clearly > detailed by JKR. In addition, the prophecy also had to be heard by > Dumbledore (or at the very least known by Dumbledore) so that > Dumbledore could put measures into effect that would protect Harry > while he was still so young from Voldemort. > So, the prophecy exists in order to cause action and produce results > that, in turn, cause the prophecy to become true. So, because those > who heard the prophecy believed it to be true, they act on the info > contained within and MADE it come true. But the prophecy is also sufficiently ambiguous that it can be interpreted (and fulfilled) in several different ways--especially the "either/other" "survives/lives" portion. It's possible that if Voldemort had heard the whole prophecy, he would still have tried to destroy Harry, not understanding the significance of "mark him as his equal" until after the fact. Events may be shaped by the prophecy so that it's self-fulfilling in that regard, but they can't be predetermined or Dumbledore (and JKR) wouldn't place so much emphasis on choice. Essentially the conflict is predetermined, set in motion partly by the prophecy and partly by Voldemort's response to it, but the outcome isn't predetermined. If it were, Harry would be nothing more than a puppet of fate. Clearly he isn't. He's a free agent in the sense that he must make choices, but they must be the right choices if he's to live and Voldemort is to die. Carol From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Dec 2 19:24:45 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 19:24:45 -0000 Subject: The magic power of love. Was: BANG! You're dead! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86316 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mad_maxime" > wrote: > > > Mad Maxime: > > > > Kneasy, it seems to me you are overestimating Voldemort. Powerful > > as he may be, he has made one fatal mistake after another. He seems > > to routinely underestimate his opponents and his prejudices blind him > > in ways that are detrimental to his health and well being. > > Geoff: > Look the other way Kneasy, I've got my cheerleader's togs on! > > Voldemort's weak points are just like those of Sauron in LOTR. I have > said this before; Gandalf points out that one of Sauron's weak spots > is that he cannot conceive of anyone wanting to destroy the Ring to > rid Middle-Earth of it. > > He is looking for a scrap between the folk holding it and expects a > new contender for the post of Dark Lord to be putting in an > application form. > > (LOTR spoiler following) > > In the chapter where Frodo, Sam (and Gollum) reach the Sammath Naur > and Frodo puts on the Ring to claim it, Sauron realises his > flaw. "...and the magnitude of his folly was revealed to him in a > blinding flash..." > Usually I'm a sucker for tights and boots with high heels, but Geoff, wouldn't it be better if you shaved your legs? Now, what weaknesses has Voldy shown? Impatience, maybe; an unfortunate tendency to gloat (bad news on the Evil Overlord list of do's and don'ts). But not much else. I can't agree with Maxine that he's made fatal mistakes, not yet, anyway. (Subject to the gleam in Dumbledore's eyes at the end of GoF.) He's still there, and due to get much stronger. He seems to consider that he has only one real opponent - Dumbledore. And it's true (or so we are told) that these are the two most powerful wizards. Harry is nowhere near the standard of either, but he's lucky, lucky, lucky. He's shown no sign of defeating Voldy and only manages to escape him by the intervention of outside agents (Mirror, Fawkes, wands, DD). None of these could have been foreseen by Voldemort. He's an umitigated pest, so far as Voldy is concerned. This may be a good thing; if he's concentrating on Harry, maybe someone else can bring the hammer down when he's not looking. Geoff, are you considering that Harry might be Voldy MkII? Or be tempted in that direction? That'd throw him all right. Be a neat plot twist, too. But just what usable chinks are there in Voldy's armour? I really can't see any. But I'm open to advisement. Kneasy From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Dec 2 17:57:09 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 17:57:09 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans vs. Dudley Dursley (was Mark Evans - evans, Evans, EVANS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86317 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" wrote: Pipsqueak: Dumbledore refers to the Dursley's as Harry's only family. Entropy: > Perhaps Dumbledore referred to the Dursleys as Harry's only living > family, but meant his only living *magical* family. Geoff: Can I just refer you to a long post I put together to try to collate the various ideas and thinking on this? Message 85255. From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 2 17:51:32 2003 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 17:51:32 -0000 Subject: Some discrepancies Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86318 The most likely explanation for Mrs. Black's proprietorial references to her ancient house is that it is, indeed, her ancient house. Both her maiden name and her married name was Black i.e. she married a cousin, a quite common occurrence in the tiny, inbred circle in which she moved. I think the house always belonged to her side of the family and that Mr. Black merely moved in after they were married, so the house, in the literal and metaphorical sense, was hers. Sylvia From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 16:12:30 2003 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 16:12:30 -0000 Subject: Defeat of Grindelwald in 1945 and timeline Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86319 Albus Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald, a famous dark wizard, in 1945. What is the relation to the timeline in which Tom Riddle opened the Chamber of Secrets specifically and in which Tom Riddle was at Hogwarts in general? Is their any relation (familial or otherwise) between Grindelwald and Tom Riddle/Voldemort? "drjuliehoward" From LinneaLand at CS.com Tue Dec 2 16:38:49 2003 From: LinneaLand at CS.com (thelinnealand) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 16:38:49 -0000 Subject: The Room of Requirement is the Chamber Pot Room? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86320 Seems apparent to me but am unable to track down any posts about it. It may also be the room where DD stored The Mirror of Erised - a hiding place and a place to hide when that was what Harry needed at the time. Rebuttals anyone? Linnea (Lin nay uh) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 19:43:30 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 19:43:30 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans predictions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86321 Here are my Book 6 predictions for Mark Evans, with the level of confidence in parentheses. 1) He will show up at Hogwarts as a Muggle-born wizard (99%). 2) He will either be or appear to be Harry's distant relative (95%). 3) He will be befriended by Harry, who will see the striking parallels in their circumstances and try to be a mentor to the little boy (90%). 4) He will have green eyes (80%). I'm also afraid that he is somehow "marked" and will be one of the characters who dies in Book 7. If so, the way Harry deals with his death will be crucial. I'm fully aware that I'm only guessing at his significance, but I'm curious to see what others think of these ideas. Carol From hermowninny719 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 20:19:39 2003 From: hermowninny719 at yahoo.com (hermowninny719) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 20:19:39 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86322 Carol wrote: Here are my Book 6 predictions for Mark Evans, with the level of confidence in parentheses. 1) He will show up at Hogwarts as a Muggle-born wizard (99%). 2) He will either be or appear to be Harry's distant relative (95%). 3) He will be befriended by Harry, who will see the striking parallels in their circumstances and try to be a mentor to the little boy (90%). 4) He will have green eyes (80%). Now Hermowninny writes: I've been watching the Mark Evans threads and also believe there is something very significant about little Mark, but one thing keeps bothering me.. Harry doesn't strike me as very observant. I can't quote anything, but it seems to me that if Harry has all the facts, and we have all the facts, and Hermione has all the facts, Hermione will be the first to figure it out. If Hermione doesn't have all the facts, they keep searching until she gets the facts--Even if Harry or Ron already had the info (but maybe didn't know it). If/When Mark shows up at Hogwarts, Harry may recognize him as the boy from his neighborhood, but will he make the Evans/Evans connection. My gues is "no." After the pensieve scene where he learned his mother's maiden name, he was much more concerned about other things. Perhaps someone else can help me here, but did he ever tell Ron and Hermione about what he saw? More importantly, does Hermione know Lily's name was Evans? If Hermione doesn't have all the facts, she can't put it together. I just don't have faith in Harry to make the connection. Is there anyone else that has all the facts, that is at Hogwarts, and would be interested in making this connection? To make my post more relevant to Carol's above... I do believe Mark will show up at Hogwarts, that he will be (or at least appear to be) a distant relative of Harry's, not sure how they will figure it out or become friends, and I would bet Mark has green eyes. Hermowninny (who really wishes she could trust Harry more, but still can't) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 20:49:23 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 20:49:23 -0000 Subject: Bang! You're Dead. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86323 > > Carol again: > >In GoF, Harry can't bring himself to use > > Avada Kedavra against Sirius, despite his rage, or > > against Peter Pettigrew, despite his cold contempt. He > > also persuades Lupin and Sirius not to use it, not to > > become killers. He knows, through reason or instinct, > > that they would be contaminating themselves by doing so. > Arcum: > In GoF, Harry has no reason to AK Sirius, and little > opportunity to AK Peter. If you mean in PoA, Harry hadn't > heard of Avada Kedavra yet... Carol: Sorry. PoA, of course. He *does* want to kill Sirius and spends quite a bit of time contemplating it. (How he would have done it without having yet heard of AK, I don't know, but he wasn't contemplating HOW to do it. He simply could not bring himself to commit murder). And I didn't say that he intended to AK Peter in Gof (meaning PoA!); I said that he *persuaded* Lupin and Sirius not to do it, creating a life debt that Peter now owes him and preventing them from becoming murderers. > > > Kneasy: > > > I'm pleased that you have no objection to Voldy being > > > smeared across the landscape; just the method used > > > causes you concern. Why? Dead is dead. > > > > Carol again: No. Dead isn't dead and killing isn't > > killing. There's self-defense and there's murder. There > > are legitimate and illegitimate methods. Unless Harry is > > made an honorary auror exempt from the laws of the WW or > > the law is changed in time of war, he should not break > > it. And the moral law still applies: the curses are > > unforgiveable. Why should he be forgiven for using them > > if no one else (except an auror when Crouch was in > > charge) can be forgiven for using one? > Arcum: > While I think they'd probably wave the charges if Tom was > killed by AK, I feel it is more a matter of not stooping to > their level. A bit of dialogue I recall from PS/SS: > > "You flatter me," said Dumbledore calmly. "Voldemort had > powers I will never have." > > "Only because you're too -- well -- noble to use them." > > I feel this would cover the unforgivables as well. Carol: I'm not sure about waiving the charges, but otherwise I agree with you. Dumbledore doesn't use the unforgiveable curses because he doesn't need them and because he's "the epitome of goodness." That's the standard of behavior we can expect Harry to follow. Good is more powerful than Evil and neither must nor should use evil methods to achieve its goals. (Barty Crouch Sr. may have been good to begin with, but he became tainted the moment he began to fight evil with evil.) > > Carol again: I can see your point here and I've revised > > my theory (above) to include cold indifference regarding > > the AK. But the other two, especially Crucio, are > > probably never justified in JKR's view. There are plenty > > of other spells available to hinder an opponent, notably > > shield charms, Expelliarmus and Stubefy (correctly > > pronounced). I wouldn't mind seeing Harry hit LV with a > > combination of Expelliarmus and Tarantellegra (if Harry's > > wand will work against its brother). But Crucio is > > another matter altogether. > > I'd like to point out that we have no canon of Moody having > used the unforgivable curses as of yet. While he didn't > manage to bring in all the DE's he fought alive, there are > many other ways he could have killed them. Keep in mind > that none of the unforgivables in GoF were done by Moody. > And I do think most of the Aurors using unforgivables were > bad ones. Keep in mind it wasn't limited to AK'ing. They > could also use Crucio and Imperio. Carol: You're right. I was assuming that he killed Rosier (who attacked him first and blew off part of his nose) using AK because it's the only killing spell I know of. Maybe there are other spells that can kill but are not illegal or unforgiveable because there are ways to defend against them, whereas AK can't be blocked unless you happen to be HP or Dumbledore. I'm not forgetting Crucio and Imperio, which (as I staed in another post) provided a clue to Imposter!Moody's evil nature that we shouldn't have missed. I very much doubt that the real Moody would use them--or need to do so. Again we have the quote stating that he brought them in alive when he could--a matter of principle, presumably--and killed only when it was necessary. We know that he killed Rosier. IIRC, we don't know who killed Wilkes. We also don't know *how* they were killed. Arcum: > Also, I don't really think the whole bit with Bella was a > red herring. What she said seemed both consistant with what > Crouch has said about the unforgivables, AK in particular: > > "Avada Kedavra's a curse that needs a powerful bit of magic > behind it - you could all get your wands out now and point > them at me and say the words, and I doubt I'd get so much > as a nosebleed." Carol: I don't think it's a red herring, either. I was merely conceding Kneasy's point that it *might* be one. I think you're right that the quote from Imposter!Moody (as distinct from Crouch, which I use to refer to his father) does more or less confirm Bellatrix's words, with one key difference: she states that it requires a desire to kill; he states that it requires very powerful magic. For both of those reasons, Harry's Cruciatus spell didn't work--fortunately for his conscience and his "good guy" status. Arcum: > On another note, why does most of the information thus far > about unforgivables come from DEs? Carol: I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean that it comes from DEs because only DEs use those spells, you're probably right. But other than Imposter!Moody and Bellatrix, who has provided us with information on them? I haven't yet checked out the quotes. (I'm frankly relieved by the idea that the real Mad Eye may have had some other way to kill Rosier. If so, then the Good side has no sufficient reason to resort to the unforgiveable curses, and there's no need for Harry or the DA or the Order to contaminate themselves by using them. That, to me, is extremely important in maintaining the distinction between good and evil as JKR has defined them. > > Carol: > > Has anyone hunted up all the references in the books > > to the Unforgiveable Curses? Who's used them and in what > > circumstances and why they're unforgiveable? That's what > > I really need to explore before I take this discussion > > any further. C. > Arcum: > Chapter 14 of GoF - "The Unforgivable Curses" has the most > information. > Chapter 27 of GoF has Sirius's info on their use by Aurors. > Chapter 36 of OoP is where the infamous taunt by Bella is. Carol: Thanks. I'll print this list for future reference. If anyone finds more info on the curses (not examples of people casting them), please let me know. Arcum: > Umbridge didn't end up Crucioing Harry, but threatened him > with it, and started to cast it. Carol: Which shows that right away that she's evil. Unlike Harry, who was in a state of great agitation when he tried and failed to Crucio Bella, she was perfectly calm in choosing to use an illegal and unethical spell--not to mention hypocritical since she was trying to ban defensive spells and potions that could be used in war. I wonder if her magic (and her malice) would have been strong enough to make it work. She seems like a feeble excuse for a witch, but there's no question of her cruelty (making Harry write his lines in his own blood). Anyone think she's secretly a DE or in league with them? (Arcum, do you have that page reference?) > Arcum: > Krum cast Crucio while under Imperius. (which is > interesting, actually...) Carol: Yes. Very interesting. Viktor Krum seems like a basically decent person, but he hasn't been taught to resist the Imperius curse despite having a DE as headmaster (Karkaroff, in my view, is still a DE rather than a former DE like Snape. He's a coward and a traitor but he still teaches his students the Dark Arts.) I'm worried about Krum; he may turn out to be a tool of the bad guys if he's so easily manipulated. Carol, who firmly believes that the unforgiveable curses should not be used by the good guys From kcawte at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 3 05:11:27 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:11:27 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bang! You're dead. References: <58F87BEC-24F3-11D8-B41E-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: <006f01c3b95c$d045f000$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 86324 "The Loudest Noise Comes From The Electric Minerva." Kneasy: > Be warned; Kneasy is only happy when he causes other fans to fly to > their keyboards in a "We'll soon see about that!" frame of mind. > K Which is a pity, because I think I'm generally about to agree with you on most things, albeit with some conditions. > First up: > > Nora: > Because means matter. In several ethical systems one might apply > (from the real world, gasp!), but also the comments from canon > discussed previously. It's notable that the Aurors were authorized > to use these curses because they normally would not have been; one > can view it not as saying 'Oh, but it's actually alright now', but as > a concession to necessity that doesn't ameliorate their wrongness. I > like Moody. He's interesting, and a good foil. He certainly has blood > on his hands. But he also is described as being one of the ones who > tried to capture and not to kill--a distinction worth noting. I > think JKR has written in, and is examining, moral concepts--and I > think she's made it pretty clear that both means and intention > *matter*. > > Kneasy: > I don't subscribe to "the ends justify the means" school either. Or not > often - it all depends on the ends that are envisaged and what means > are either available or likely to be efficacious. If that sounds like > a cop out it's probably because I approach the problem from a slightly > different angle. > K Actually it sounds like you probably do subscribe to Machiavelli's original meaning there though. The quote was originally something like (Sorry don't have a copy of The Prince to hand, didn't expect to be using it in an HP discussion, silly me) in certain circumstances the ends can justify the means. He was talking about pretty much the type of situation we have in the WW at the time - ie war and the survival of one's society. (The Prince is an instruction manual for the potential ruler of a City) I agree that JKR seems to be showing that morally (although not necessarily legally) when and why we make certain choices ie killing someone, are very important, in fact possibly more important than the decision in the first place. Although other times it seems that the choice is important rather than the reasoning behind it - eg Harry's decision to become a Gryffindor not a Slytherin which prompts Dumbledore's comment about choices defining us. In that particular case all that Harry's choice shows us really is that he'd taking a liking to Ron and thought Draco an utter prat. I wnder what this emphasis on the importance of choice tells us about Dumbledore who's main choice in several circumstances seems to have been to stand by and let someone else choose (of which more later) Kneasy: > The key question to Harry IMO is 'Are you willing to kill in whatever > the prevailing circumstances are at the time?' That is the crunch > question. If the answer is 'yes' then the moral and ethical criteria > have been dealt with from Harry's point of view; what's left are the > practicalities. Once he decides that he can willingly encompass the > destruction of Voldemort all else fades in comparison. Intention is > everything, means are a detail. Whatever means he uses will make no > difference from Voldemorts viewpoint - and he'll be the injured (or > mortified) party. He'd be equally pissed off no matter which method > Harry used. > K I'm not so sure about that. I think the key question is "Are you willing to kill *if necessary"? or was that what you were saying and I am misunderstanding you? Kneasy: > I've had discussions off site where I've pointed out that killing may > be an ethical question but murder is interpreted by legal means. It is > a socially > defined crime. The Aurors were told that the definition did not apply > to their actions in certain circumstances. Such exclusions are made in > the real world too and so long as the circumstances are as envisaged I > have no objections. Moody obviously tried to maintain the spirit as > well as the letter of the law; he didn't kill gratuitously. What more > could one ask for? > K I think that the whole system surrounding the unforgivables is idiotic anyway. Cruciatus I can understand being illegal, regardless of circumstances. It is there only to cause pain and while one could use it to distract/disable an opponent there are other equally effective spells. However Imperius and AK have their uses. As I understand the law had James AK'ed Voldemort to save his family and his self he'd have ended up in jail! Imperius could be used when apprehending criminals, by medical staff with patients who are in danger of hurting themselves or others etc. > Nora: > I also think it's notable that Harry's Crucio didn't work > particularly well. Lack of practice perhaps, but also a lack of true > will/intention; he wanted to hurt her on one level, but on another, I > think he didn't have it in him to truly hurt another human being like > that. > (Carol voices this opinion, too.) > > Kneasy: > Sorry. According to canon it's a life sentence for "using any one of > them on a fellow human being" - being bad at it doesn't seem to be a > mitigating circumstance. And I think Harry would use them in certain > circumstances; I don't seem to be the only one either. The first thing > Lupin did on entering the Shrieking Shack was to disarm Harry. If Harry > had known about the Unforgivables at the time, who knows what might > have happened? > K See my above comments about it being a stupid system to make them illegal for no reason. Although on the subject of Bellatrix I wonder why Harry didn't try and kill her rather than just hurting her - not that I'm saying he necessarily *should* have tried to kill her, I'm just wondering why he chose to try and cause her as much pain as he could (which turned out to be pretty much none - but the intention was there, even if his subconscious and his nature wouldn't let him follow it up)but not kill her. > > Berit replies: > > > When a rash and potentially violent character like Sirius saw the > problems of Crouch's decision, forcing his Aurors to "descend to the > level of Death Eaters", do you really think Dumbledore didn't object? > If so I want to know when, according to canon, Dumbledore started to > become more "blood-thirsty" than Sirius :-)) > > > > Kneasy: > Circumstantial evidence maybe. But some circumstantial evidence, like a > trout in the milk, is very compelling. > > There is no canon that I can find that mentions a counter-faction to > Crouch's measures. When discussing the subject with Harry, don't you > think Sirius would have mentioned one, if it existed? > > If Dumbledore did have objections, then he has gone down in my > estimation. Not for objecting, but for not going public and causing a > fuss. (If he had done so I'm sure we would have heard of it by now.) To > my mind he would have been trying to have his cake and eating it too, > if that was his stance. Has he no principles that he will publicly > stand up for? Deploring methods in private, taking advantage of them in > public seems a bit hypocritical. > K As I was saying earlier he does seem to like to abdicate responsibility. When he stands up to Fudge in OoP it's the only time I've really seen him take action of any kind. Throughout PS he seems to allow Snape and Harry to do all the work (alright we don't know that Snape told Dumbledore he was suspicious but it's not very Slytherin to take all the risks oneself, the only time we've seen Snape act *rashly* is around Lupin and he must have told Dumbledore *something* to get to be quidditch umpire so why would he have deliberately omitted his suspicions about *who* was the problem). He seems in fact to give Harry all the clues for how to get to the Stone in case it was necessary but not done anything himself about it. In CoS other than warning the students he doesn't seem to do much even when students are dropping like flies. The extent of his standing up for Hagrid seems to have been telling Fudge that he didn't agree with him, no actual action of any kind and again he knows that Harry and Co are 'up to no good' and possibly about tog et themselves into danger but he doesn't try and stop them, in fact he encourages them. In PoA he does nothing that we can see to try and head off the inevitable confrontation between Lupin and Snape, apparently choosing to let them settle it themselves. Knowing as he does at the end that Sirius (one of the members of his Order, who obviously risked their lives against Voldemort) is innocent but doesn't try and help him instead seeming to let him survive on his own with no help from anyone, but then at the end of GoF jumps back into giving him orders (I feel he has some responsibility for the well fare of these people regardless of why they work for him). He routinely fails to even pay attention to the emotional wellbeing of his staff, 'friends' and students - Harry, Sirius, Snape etc. He is worried about what Voldemort could do if he worked with Harry (but it's fine to let Snape do it), he knows what the feeling between Snape and Harry is but just blithely orders them to work together on occulomancy and trusts them to sort it out for themselves. He seems to agree somewhat with Hermione about the House Elves (although possibly not with her methods) and to agree that there is a problem with the way the other races interact with wizards - but we've never seen him say anything publically. The House rivalries seem to have progressed past competition into something which is counter-productive and may *encourage* Slytherins to join Voldemort (after all is everyone's going to assume you're evil anyway you might as well get some 'fun' out of it). 1/4 of his students are written off as irredeemably evil by what seems to be most of the students (and some of the staff) but he doesn't seem inclined to do anything about it. It seems to me Dumbledore is full of pretty words but precious few actions. Kneasy: > Just what did the old Order achieve? Anything? > We hear of no successes at all, just a string of dead members. I'll bet > that the other members were quite relieved that *somebody* was > knocking off the opposition - it was the members that were in the > firing line after all. Where was DD in all this? Did he put his own > neck on the line? > K A very good question. I'd like to know more about how fixed in stone prophecies are - did Dumbledore even try and actually defeat Voldemort (rather than just defeating his individual attacks and such) or did he just put all that responsibility onto Harry's shoulders when the kid was born? And if so how justifiable was that - can prophecies ever be changed? > > Kneasy: > I can understand this view very easily (particularly as I was on duty > in a Birmingham hospital the night of the '74 pub bombings.) The public > demands that something be done - *now*. Civil rights go out of the > window and Draconian measures are passed with a will, none daring to > say nay. In hindsight it's easy to decry the actions and the attitudes, > but when you're fighting a terrorist war and the pile of innocent dead > mounts ever higher with no end in sight.... This, I imagine is how the > WW was. This was not a chivalrous conflict with rules of engagement > that everyone understood, Voldy and his gang was out there, killing, > subverting, destroying society; no one was safe. > K Understanding *why* something happens doesn't make it right however - do we have any evidence that adopting these draconian measures actually did any good? Or did they merely encourage more people to join the DEs? eg those whose relatives had been killed by Aurors, those who might have agreed with the principle of pure blood views but disagreed with the methods would have been encouraged to fight if they felt they were likely to be discriminated against/imprisioned/killed whether they did or not .... Regulus for example seems to have drawn the line at some of Voldemort's actions and tried to leave, would he have done so I wonder *after* the authorities had imprisoned his brother without a trial (he might not have liked the guy but he *was* family, and that does seem fairly important to a family like the Blacks) > Kneasy: > Well put. > And I'll add a quote that was made by one of the enemy: > "It might or might not be right to kill, but sometimes it is necessary." > Gerry Adams PIRA. > Sauce for the goose... > > K Do you *have* to use quotes that I agree with from people I don't like? :) I do agree with the quote but the WW doesn't seem to have bothered to define 'necessary' when allowing the Aurors to use Unforgivables, the practice if not the actual law seems to have gone from - no, under no circumstances, not even in self-defence, to, as long as it's a DE and you can get away with it. > Kneasy: > Well, Moody did use the AK. At least, Sirius says so. But only when > necessary, so that's all right, isn't it? > I doubt Barty was trying to set a moral example. A judge is not there > to pronounce on morals but on actions against the common good. Trying > to save a society and destroy a pestilence by means that may not be > acceptable in normal times is a justifiable moral stance so far as the > majority at risk are concerned, I doubt that the 'rights' of the DEs > were considered by anyone. > K Actually a judge is there to pronounce on the law and nothing else - no matter how much he may agree or disagree with the law. I'm sure most of the pure-blood supremacists would argue that upholding the 'rights' of muggle-borns is contrary to the good of wizarding society as they are, as a group, the biggest threat to it. That's why human rights cover *all* humans, regardless of whether they 'deserve' them, and why the law aplies equally to all regardless of who they are, to protect everyone in the case that you suddenly become part of a group that is seen as a 'threat' > > Kneasy: > I prefer to believe that DD did know about it, and approved. How else > could he get Harry protected against the Imperio! curse? No way could > such a lesson be kept secret from the rest of the school; it'd be all > round the common-rooms by that evening. > K Um, how do you back that statement up? Harry's Occulomancy lessons don't seem to have become common school gossip so why would anti-Imperious lessons (and you can't tell me Snape wouldn't have *loved* a chance to use it on Harry, and Dumbledore had no problems with him humiliating him with the Occulomancy lessons so I don't see him objecting too much) > > Carol again: > I like that little admission. Nice touch. :-) As for Dumbledore not > taking an immovable moral stand, I suppose he feels that he needs to > make compromises when Hogwarts and the WW are in danger. I'll have to > think about that some more and come up with more quotes. > > > Kneasy: > Oho! Cracks in the facade of the great incorruptible? > K Dumbledore doesn't seem to like taking immovable moral stands, full stop. > > > Kneasy: > > Fine. But doesn't canon state that there is no defence against an AK? > > No blocking it, no counter-curse. > > Carol again: > But Harry DID block it, effortlessly, as an infant of fifteen months, > much as he instinctively blocked Snape's attempt to read his most > private thoughts with a shield charm. Maybe what is true for other > wizards isn't true for him because he's Voldemort's equal. > K Well then the whole discussion about Unforgivables re Voldemort is moot because if Harry is immune because he's Voldemort's equal then surely Voldemort is immune too > Kneasy: > Something blocked it. But I notice Harry would rather not have to rely > on it happening again; in the graveyard he's ducking and diving all > over the place. Voldy seems to think it'll work this time, too. Maybe > it's like a "Get out of goal free" card: you can only use it once. > Besides, my response was to a comment you made about Voldy attacking > Harry *or a friend*. I was just pointing out that it doesn't seem > possible to protect against an AK. > K Besides which he doesn't *know* how he did it even if he did. I might survive falling off a cliff once but it wouldn't make me eager to start throwing myself off them willy nilly. > > Kneasy: > Please! I can't see Harry as a parfait gentle knight, spotless in > thought, word and deed. I suspect that his faults plus those bits of > Voldy buried in there somewhere are necessary for his eventual > triumph, even though he may not be around to celebrate. > > K Wouldn't he be boring if he became perfectly good? Although some basic understanding that rules are rules and apply to everyone not just everyone *else* would be nice. K From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 21:16:03 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 21:16:03 -0000 Subject: Legilimens and Occlumens and Snape's Reasons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86325 > Zinaida: > > I don't think that Snape is an agent of Voldemort or a dementor :). > But I think he is *behaving* as a dementor during Occlumency lessons > with Harry. It seems to me that Snape is using the "that's-what- > Voldemort-would-do-to-you" explanation ("you are handing me > weapons... Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves... > stand no chance against his powers!") as an excuse to do at these > lessons what he is always doing to Harry at his regular lessons. Why > I think that? All that Snape says is true, but if he were more > concerned with teaching Harry Occlumency than with accessing his > uncomfortable memories per se (note, I don't say he wasn't concerned > with the former - it's just a matter of comparison), > (1) he would not have done what Voldemort might do at the first > attempt of the first lesson, increasing the difficulty gradually (as > he does at his potions classes) and allowing Harry to build on his > successes; > (2) he would have *first* explained to Harry in detail what he should > do rather than later at Harry's demands; > (3) he would have given him time to prepare at first, again allowing > for gradual increase of difficulty. Carol: I think you're forgetting that Harry doesn't trust Snape and doesn't want to be there. Snape obviously knows Harry's feelings and resents them, but it's also quite likely that if he had tried to present Harry with a logical explanation, Harry would have been even more suspicious and would not have been any more cooperative. Also, Dumbledore doesn't want Harry to know why he's taking the lessons. It's a lose/lose proposition for both of them. Zinaida: > (Not to mention that the normal and decent thing to do in such a > delicate situation would be to provide Harry with a pensive as well.) Carol: Since occlumency is such a rare skill, I seriously doubt that pensieves are just lying around among the school supplies. I suspect that Snape borrowed Dumbledore's to prevent Harry from seeing his most painful memories. There was no way to teach Harry occlumency without accessing *his* private thoughts. He had to learn to block Snape's legilmency, which could only be done if he had memories that needed to be hidden. Not to mention that Harry doesn't know how to remove his private thoughts and put them in a pensieve even if one were available. > I think that , although Harry was curious about the mysterious door > at MOM, he wanted to and did make an effort to learn Occlumency Carol: On the contrary, he wanted to see what was beyond the door in his dream. He made no effort to follow Snape's order to clear his mind at night and he did not practice occlumency between sessions. If anyone is at fault here, it's Dumbldore for not explaining things in a note. Zinaida: > I apologize if my previous post (or this one) gave offense ? I > certainly didn't mean to condemn Snape as the necessary future > traitor, merely speculating ? what his various motives might be and > whether his passion for revenge against supposed allies might not > *accidentally* take him too far at some point. But no, I think it > very unlikely (although not 100% impossible) that he'll ever return > to Voldemort's service. Carol: No offense taken. I'm glad we at least agree that Snape isn't "the necessay future traitor" (I'm still waiting for an explanation for why everyone thinks there's going to be one). I don't fully understand Snape's motives and I don't always approve of his methods, but I'm convinced that he will never return to Voldemort's service: "I will remain at Hogwarts" (GoF). Carol From melclaros at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 21:18:14 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 21:18:14 -0000 Subject: Is Snape confident? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86326 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nora Renka" wrote: DADA is not by definition a 'discussion > > based class'. With Lupin it was, with fakeMoody it seems to have > been > to some extent. With Umbridge it was not. > > Real success she was as a teacher, eh? mel: We're discussing style, not substance. I can't imagine Snape using sterile state-sanctioned curriculum any more than Lupin or Fake!Moody. > > It does; seen it happen, experienced it myself; but when no one else > at ALL is responding? In such a manner? The insecure snap, the > assured manage to communicate it in an effectual way. Yes, when no one else at all is responding. When no one is responding it's because they're thinking "Why bother, Hermione (or insert your class smartypants' name here) will call out the answer anyway." Teachers call on students they suspect know the answer, or at least have a grasp of the subject, whether or not anyone is waving a hand in that their face. Snape knows these students. Just because he hasn't taught them in that particular classroom does not mean he doesn't know that Goyle will NOT know the answer but one of the other 30 just might. We actually see very few students beyone the main few and even less of Snape's real teaching. Beyond what he does when Harry's around we know nothing. And in that manner--that is Snape's manner. We're discussing Snape. Rest assured, there are in fact teachers who would respond in that manner and tone, yes. > Let me put my response back into the context from which it sprang, > and try to be brief. :) My original spark was the question of > confidence, and IMO, as I've tried to elucidate, Snape isn't a > particularly confident teacher. mel Well that's interesting. He should be considering all his students "manage" to pass their OWLS. >Perhaps I'm biased by spending too > much time around university academics mel: Which reminds me, I was going to ask you--do they not have lectures anymore. I spent 5 years in college and all my classes were lectures, even those with 20-30 students in them until my final 2 years. Then the classes in my major were seminar type, held mainly in professors' offices and to call them classes would be to really stretch the point. Debates, discussions yes. Classes? Only according to my transcript and the syllabus. Continuing on that thought, anyone else besides me here like to see what Snape's like in his Advanced NEWT classes? Bet it's a whole 'nother world in that dungeon. My bet is that he even enjoys those. > And on the second point, are you agreeing with the general WW view > that a werewolf in no way shape or form should be teaching children? > It's certainly a personal opinion that you have the right to have, > but I think JKR is pretty overt in her disapproval of that attitude mel: My attitude is irrelevant here. However since you've asked, and as I do have children of Hogwarts age, let me consider. I send my children away, entrust them to strangers who consider themselves scions of the WW. I then find out through a miraculous letter home (13 year old son, 'nuf said parents?) that one of these trusted teachers is, in fact, a recognised Dangerous Creature. There is no, as far as *I* know (is the whole WW aware of Snape's potion?) treatment for this condtition and every 28 days it is guaranteed that one of this teacher is going to go feral. I would be annoyed to say the least. Yes. I do believe Dumbledore would have come out the loser there and that is precisely why he is so cold to Lupin when he is finally dismissed. He seems more annoyed at Lupin for being "found out" than at himself for having made an ill-informed choice. Pulling the wool over your staff's eyes is one thing. Pulling it over the parents of (how many students?) is quite another. Is discrimation right? NO. This dyed-in-the-wool liberal says no. But as annoying as my kids are, if anyone's going to tear them to shreds it'll be me. -- > Lupin as victim of discrimination (and as her favorite kind of > teacher is well-established). Not to say that we can't disagree with > an author on interpretation, but that's a somewhat contrary > perspective to take, being as it's pre-really actually screwing up > and forgetting the potion Lupin. Just something to think about... Ah, but he DID forget the potion, didn't he? Mel, who you should know used to hold Remus as her 2nd favorite character. He's going to have to claw his way back up to that spot after OoP. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 21:23:06 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 21:23:06 -0000 Subject: Snape's Hiring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86327 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Julie" wrote: > Hello, everyone. > I've been lurking for months enjoying the really insightful and > informative discussions on different aspects of the Harry Potter > books. Many of you know the characters and books backwards and > forwards, its amazing and a lot of fun to follow (and very humbling)! > > I've a question that I hope someone can help me with, regarding the > end of Goblet of Fire and Order of the Phoenix. > > I've read each book several times (US edition), but can't seem to > find the information. I've been told through another list that JKR > clearly stated in O of P that Severus Snape's presence teaching at > Hogwarts was ordered and approved of by Lord Voldemort in order to > spy on Dumbledore. (She/he is emphatic that this is one more piece > of evidence that Snape was at the rebirth in the graveyard and is > really ultimately loyal to Voldemort and not Dumbledore.) > > I've looked and looked but I just can't find this information > anywhere (nor conclusive proof that SS was at the cemetery). I would > hate to think that I've misread such important points. Since many of > you really know the books inside and out, would someone be willing to > point me in the right direction to that passage in the book? > > Thanks, > Julie Carol: Snape's teachimng at Hogwarts ordered by Lord Voltemort? Please ask your list friend to provide a page reference. She seems to be confusing fanfic with canon. As far as I can see, all of the evidence points in the opposite direction, to Snape as "the one I believe has left us forever." Since you can't apparate out of Hogwarts and Snape was at the Tri-Wizard tournament with Dumbledore, how does your friend think he managed to get to the graveyard and back? Also, he told Dumbledore that the mark on his arm was darkening and deepening and told Karkaroff, who was in the same situation, to "flee" if he feared Voldemort; he himself would remain at Hogwarts. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 21:30:23 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 21:30:23 -0000 Subject: Fwd: Re: (Hogwarts or Bust) Re: Harry's link to Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86328 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jeffl1965" wrote: > --- In Hogwarts_or_Bust at yahoogroups.com, Myzty Myztrice > wrote: > It might happen. The prophecy said something like "one cannot survive > with the other living" (self-rephrased). It did not state that they > cannot die together. What I'm wondering about is that what if the > link between Harry and Voldemort becomes so strong that their minds > become truly connected (perhaps as one?) , so when one dies, the > other dies too, when the brain dies... > > myzty. Agh. That's a little too much like having Voldemort sticking out the back of your head. Voldemort has already tried and failed to possess Harry. I don't know if he'll continue entering into his mind. I'm hoping that now Harry will understand the need to learn occlumency, if necessary from Dumbledore himself rather than Snape. I have a number of theories about how Harry will destroy Voldemort without using an illegal curse and without engaging in another civil war of wands (brother against brother), but none involves a union of their minds, metaphorical or literal. Now I'm starting to imagine Voldemort's brain stored in pickling fluid in the Department of Mysteries--not an ending I'd be very happy with. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 21:45:34 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 21:45:34 -0000 Subject: Fwd: (Hogwarts or Bust) Re: Harry's link to Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86329 Jeff wrote: > Chances are that as evil as Riddle is, he'll do > *anything* he can to gain an advantage. The link he shares with Harry > could very well increase as Riddle's powers increase. The chance that > he can influence Harry's actions will also increase. Carol: That's why Harry needs to continue building his defensive skills, including everything from occlumency to shield charms. He can resist an Imperius curse, but that's not nearly enough. He now knows that he isn't ready to tackle Voldemort and the Death Eaters and that he can't do it alone. But I think the more he knows about the way Voldemort thinks and works, the more he'll be able to resist him (which is why he really needs to learn to trust Snape, who's the only one of his allies who can think like a Dark Wizard without acting as one). Jeff: How will Riddle's death affect Harry? That remains to be seen. I truly hope it won't be a negative one, but we'll have to see. Carol: I'm not sure what you mean about Riddle's (Voldemort's?) death having a "negative" effect on Harry. Unless he resorts to evil methods himself and suffers guilt and remorse as a consequence (which I don't think he will), the only possible effect on Harry will be to free him from any further intrusion by Voldemort into his life and mind and free him of the burden of the prophecy. Do bear in mind that for all its complexity this is a children's book. Harry may die, but he's not going to suffer some bizarre transformation into Harrymort. At least, I thoroughly hope not! Carol (who would find it easier to respond if you'd put your posts below the ones you're answering as the List Elves request--hope they don't mind my speaking for them!) From Veritas771 at hotmail.com Tue Dec 2 21:47:40 2003 From: Veritas771 at hotmail.com (michaelkgidlow) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 21:47:40 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Army Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86330 I don't know if this has been brought up before (I haven't read posts for awhile), but do we know what went on during the Slytherin's Defence Against the Dark Arts classes in the fifth book? If she was secretly working for Voldemort(which I believe she was), isn't possilbe that she taught the Slytherin's the dark arts in her classes? Perhaps she was building up her own army whilst Harry and others built up Dumbledore's army. Any ideas on this? From jjpandy at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 21:50:42 2003 From: jjpandy at yahoo.com (jjpandy) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 21:50:42 -0000 Subject: Question about Ollivander and Harry's Wand Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86331 Can someone give me the message number or name of the theory if one exists about Mr. Ollivander's knowledge of Voldemorte? The lists are just too massive for me to search on my own. Where is Hermione when you need a good research assistant? Anyway, I was thinking about the graveyard scene at the end of GoF when I realized that Mr. Ollivander is one of the few wizards who knows that Tom Riddle became Voldemorte. Dumbledore had once said (sorry, don't have my books) that very few people were aware that Voldemorte had been a student named Tom Riddle. But, in PS/SS, Ollivander knew that the brother wand to Harry's wand had been the one that gave him the scar, therefore, he knew that Voldemorte was Tom Riddle, since the wand had been sold to Tom Riddle. Now, was Harry's wand created before, at the same time, or after Tom Riddle's wand? Did Fawkes give up both tail feathers at the same time? How long had Harry's wand been sitting on the shelf in Ollivander's store? Note: Tom Riddle had purchased his wand over 50 years before Harry. Did Ollivander ever try to sell that particular wand to any other wizard? Was he waiting for the day when Harry would walk into his store and did he just have Harry try other wands first so as not to arouse suspicion? JJPandy From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 21:55:36 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 21:55:36 -0000 Subject: Fwd: Re: Harry's link to Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86333 Marci wrote: > The link between Harry and LV is possibly at its peak. > Making their link stronger is the fact that now Lily's blood also > flows in LV. Does this give him a link to Petunia and Dudley as > well??? Dumbledore is the one that 'sealed' Harry's protection. As > long as he is where his mother's blood flows (home), he is safe. Has > LV done himself the ultimate disservice by using Harry's blood? > Carol: I think you're right that LV somehow did himself a disservice by using Harry's blood (which would explain Dumbledore's look of triumph near the end of OoP), but I'm not exactly sure how that relates to Harry's safety as long as he stays with his closest blood relative, Aunt Petunia. That spell, as I read it, holds whether or not the blood also flows in LV's veins. (LV can now touch Harry, but that's another matter altogether.) What, exactly, is the disservice that LV has done to himself? (Not arguing, just asking.) Carol From a_williams1 at pacific.edu Tue Dec 2 21:52:29 2003 From: a_williams1 at pacific.edu (Aesha Williams) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 13:52:29 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4028 References: <1070363254.9495.55099.m4@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <007a01c3b91e$9515d7e0$d8430a0a@bre.uop.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 86334 "Julie" : >I've been told through another list that JKR clearly stated in O of P that Severus Snape's presence teaching >at Hogwarts was ordered and approved of by Lord Voldemort in order to spy on Dumbledore. (She/he is >emphatic that this is one more piece of evidence that Snape was at the rebirth in the graveyard and is >really ultimately loyal to Voldemort and not Dumbledore.) >I've looked and looked but I just can't find this information anywhere (nor conclusive proof that SS was at >the cemetery). Wow, this is a wild theory. Well, JKR never said that Snape was ordered by LV to begin teaching at Hogwarts. Especially not "clearly"- the only place I could think someone could think something was up was when Umbridge was doing her inspection of the Potions class. She asks how long he's been teaching (14 years, I think) and then asks why he's never been given the DADA position he's applied for many times. I guess maybe somenoe could think that maybe there's a small bit of mistrust that keeps DD from giving it to Snape... but that could be thought after reading the first book. As for the cemetary at the end of GOF, I think most people assume he wasn't there. Voldemort says something about the people that aren't in the circle... and he mentions one who's too afraid (or something to that effect; Karkaroff, I think) and one who's left the fold (I personally think he's referring to Snape). So while it's not explictly stated that he's there, I think he's not. Aesha [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org Tue Dec 2 22:20:44 2003 From: olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org (olivierfouquet2000) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 22:20:44 -0000 Subject: Query In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20031203074858.00a63860@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86335 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tanya Swaine wrote: > Looking for the year that Dumbledore began as headmaster at > Hogwarts for a theory of mine. Is there a timeline that shows this? > > Thanks, Tanya Hi Tanya, There is no canon, however in PoA Lupin says that he was able to go to Hogwarts just because Dumbledore became Headmaster (PoA ch.18) and because he was sympathetic. The way his sentence his worded, one gets the impression that Dumbledore had been Headmaster for a very short period of time before Lupin arrived at Hogwarts. Since Lupin started in 1971-72 (that we know from an interview), we can assume that Dumbledore has been Headmaster since about 1970. More references are as usual in the Lexicon. Olivier From kcawte at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 3 06:26:58 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 22:26:58 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Query References: Message-ID: <002701c3b966$90f3ded0$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 86336 > Olivier > > There is no canon, however in PoA Lupin says that he was able to go to Hogwarts just > because Dumbledore became Headmaster (PoA ch.18) and because he was > sympathetic. The way his sentence his worded, one gets the impression that > Dumbledore had been Headmaster for a very short period of time before Lupin arrived > at Hogwarts. Since Lupin started in 1971-72 (that we know from an interview), we can > assume that Dumbledore has been Headmaster since about 1970. > > More references are as usual in the Lexicon. > >> Wouldn't he have become the Headmaster the same year Minerva became Transfiguration Professor, since that was his job at one point? And if so, we *do* know that don't we? K "The Loudest Noise Comes From The Electric Minerva." From helenhorsley at hotmail.com Tue Dec 2 19:46:50 2003 From: helenhorsley at hotmail.com (dorapye) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 19:46:50 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans - evans, Evans, EVANS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86337 Hi, first-time poster here, been, um, just lurking for a little while and plucking up the courage to add my ha'penny worth. In response to Carol: > Carol: > Interesting idea. At least we've got you believing that he'll probably > show up at Hogwarts! The parallels between his behavior and Harry's > are also interesting--both bullied by Dudley and both standing up to > him. Harry is sure to take an interest in the little guy--a > muggle-born wizard from the Dursleys' neighborhood who happens to have > his mother's former last name--even if he's not a relative. But I'm > betting that he is, and that we'll know it immediately by the green > eyes, which we've been promised will be significant. Evans may be a > common name, but magical Muggle-born Evanses with brilliant green eyes > are not quite so common. (Yes, I'm speculating, but the speculation is > based on evidence from the books and the interviews.) > > > I can just picture Uncle Vernon's and Dudley's expressions as they > open the door and see that familiar envelope in Mark's hand, > especially if he has Harry's eyes. Dudley is too stupid to notice such > details, but Uncle Vernon will see it immediately IMO. Poor petunia, > guilty of having such relatives and letting them come openly to the door! > Dorapye: I'm slowly becoming more convinced by the Mark Evans thing, though part of me still believes it may just be a red herring. However, if it turns out that Mark is indeed related to Harry, I would be very interested to see how this makes Harry feel when he realises that Dumbledore may have had an alternative choice to the Dursleys of adoptive parents, ones that may have brought him up with love. How might this revelation affect Harry's relationship with DD? We've see the beginnings of adolescent awakening to parental failings in OotP; perhaps finding out that DD *chose* to place Harry with the Dursleys when another related family could perhaps have been used to seal the charm he placed on Petunia's family will finally rip to shreds Harry's trust in his benevolent mentor? He would have to work very hard to contain the bitterness and resentment he would feel, that just as LV *chose* him over Neville, DD completed the devastation of his young life by *choosing* to place him with the Dursleys. JKR is certainly fond of offering us 'if only's (the possibility of living with Sirius in PoA, Sirius's two-way mirror in OotP...er..there are more, but can't think just now...). Will he torment himself by wondering about the childhood he might have had, if only DD had made a different choice for him? If he was feeling frustrated by his powerlessness in OotP, how might this rouse his sense of injustice? I'd like to just add that the line in OotP that affects me most deeply is when DD is explaining to Harry why he placed him with Petunia and Harry interrupts him with: "She doesn't love me." That breaks my heart (but then I am a bit soft). Dorapye From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 20:31:55 2003 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 20:31:55 -0000 Subject: The Room of Requirement is the Chamber Pot Room? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86338 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "thelinnealand" wrote: > Seems apparent to me but am unable to track down any posts about it. > It may also be the room where DD stored The Mirror of Erised - a > hiding place and a place to hide when that was what Harry needed at > the time. > Rebuttals anyone? My understanding is that the two are the same because of the nature of the Room of Requirement. In this room, one will find whatever one REQUIRES, be it chamber pots, hiding places, or a defense against the dark arts classroom. I do not know if this is where Dumbledore hid the mirror of Erised. It may have been if he required the mirror to be hidden there. It will be interesting in boks 6 and 7 to see who requires what from this room. Julie From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Dec 2 21:16:29 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 21:16:29 -0000 Subject: Defeat of Grindelwald in 1945 and timeline In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86339 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drjuliehoward" wrote: > Albus Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald, a famous dark wizard, in > 1945. What is the relation to the timeline in which Tom Riddle > opened the Chamber of Secrets specifically and in which Tom Riddle > was at Hogwarts in general? Is their any relation (familial or > otherwise) between Grindelwald and Tom Riddle/Voldemort? > > "drjuliehoward" Geoff: Harry was in his Second Year at Hogwarts, i.e. 1992/93. If we assume that it was literally 50 years since the opening of the Chamber of Secrets, then that was in 1942/43. As regards to when Tom Riddle was at Hogwarts, canon gives us: "A boy of about sixteen entered, taking off his pointed hat. A silver Prefect's badge was glinting on his chest. He was much taller than Harry but he, too, had jet-black hair" (COS p.181 UK edition) "Harry stared at him. Tom Riddle had been at Hogwarts fifty years ago, yet here he stood, a weird, misty light shining about him, not a day older than sixteen." (ditto p.227) The Prefects implies at least Fifth year. Sixteen could be Fifth Year or Sixth Year". Assuming that he stayed through to the Upper Sixth, if he was sixteen and in the Fifth Year at this point, then he was at Hogwarts 1937-45, if in the Lower Sixth at his point, then 1936-44. I think your second question has been touched on in various thteads which I have not followed. Geoff From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Dec 2 20:44:22 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 20:44:22 -0000 Subject: Bang! You're dead. In-Reply-To: <58F87BEC-24F3-11D8-B41E-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86340 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith wrote: > And McGonagall says that students are not transfigured *as a > punishment*, not that they must never be transfigured. Though I rather > like the idea, turn Slytherin into lemmings and organise a day trip to > the beach. > I love it!! LOL. I have a vision of Draco in immaculately tailored swimming trunks sinking by the stern..... :-) You don't however think, Kneasy, that you have chanced on the bit of story which JKR wanted to keep under wraps and was worried that one or two people had come close to it and she would be very upset if it was rumbled? Also, in passing, are you equipped with enough wooden spoons for your posts over Christmas? Geoff From olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org Tue Dec 2 22:38:33 2003 From: olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org (olivierfouquet2000) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 22:38:33 -0000 Subject: Query In-Reply-To: <002701c3b966$90f3ded0$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86341 Kathryn wrote > Wouldn't he have become the Headmaster the same year Minerva became > Transfiguration Professor, since that was his job at one point? And if so, > we *do* know that don't we? That makes sense, in that case he would have been Headmaster since 1956. However, that would contradict Lupin statement that I quote : "It seemed impossible that I would be able to come to Hogwarts [...] But then Dumbledore became Headmaster, and he was sympathetic." This strongly indicates that Dumbledore was not Headmaster when Lupin was very young, and Lupin is born around 1960. In any case, I don't think it is possible to reason with ordinary logic regarding teacher's appointment in the WW. There is no way, for instance, that Minerva can teach Transfiguration to the four houses from first year to seven year. Since JKR has shown she would not follow conventional logic on that matter, I would not expect her to follow it in similar cases. Olivier From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 22:42:47 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 22:42:47 -0000 Subject: Snape's intolerance (was: Some points in OOP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86343 > > > Carol: > > >Responding to my own post here--oh, my! The furry-faced woman who > > >barks! (OoP 512 Am. ed.) If she *is* Snape's mother, given his > > >animosity toward werewolves and other, er, aberrations (and a > certain > > >Animagus who turns into a dog), her condition must be humiliating > for > > >him. > Iggy: > > What is part of Snape's problem with werewolves doesn't only come > from > > the prank almost played by the Marauders... Marci: > Did I miss something? I did not think Snape's intolerance was with > all werewolves and 'dogs' but just ones in particular; Remus and > Sirius, and probably more due to their closeness with his nemesis, > James. > > Now if he truly hates all werewolves, could that be another pointed > added on to the speculation that he might be a vampire? > > And I must add that the connection made to Agnes was a very good > catch indeed! Acronym for that theory anyone? Carol: First, I want to make clear that I don't think Agnes has turned into a werewolf. She barks (like a dog, not a wolf) and there's no evidence that she bites. That aside, I think Snape *does* have a general antipathy to werewolves and anyone or anything else that isn't a pureblood wizard. That antipathy is common among former Slytherins whether or not they became Death Eaters. The fact that he hates a particular werewolf and a particular animagus who turns into a dog (and was alive at the time of the St. Mungo's visit) would make his mother's transformation into a furry-faced creature who can only bark, not speak, even more humiliating than it would be for, say, Lucius Malfoy or any other Slytherin-bred pureblood. As for the vampire theory, I don't see the connection. Snape rightly fears for the students' safety with a werewolf around (even Lupin himself concedes this point and acts on it by resigning). He would also fear for their safety with a vampire in the castle. (He's been there fourteen years and hasn't bitten a student yet. I don't know why we can't let the vampire theory rest in peace.) Anyway, Agnes obviously became the way she is either through a malicious spell or a spell that went wrong. Maybe, like Luna's mother, she tried an experiment on herself that backfired, but I think it unlikely that JKR would reuse that idea. Assuming that she really is Severus's mother, I think it's unlikely in the extreme that he would have cast a spell on her or given a dangerous potion on Voldemort's orders. That order in itself would be sufficient to alienate him. I think another Death Eater, possibly his own abusive father, cast the spell, giving Snape a very good reason to leave the Death Eaters without his father or Voldemort knowing that he had done so. It is, of course, possible that Agnes is a red herring, but Bode, the man who received the Devil's Snare as a Christmas present, wasn't, and I don't think that Agnes is, either. Carol From rredordead at aol.com Tue Dec 2 22:44:05 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 22:44:05 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86344 Coral wrote: > Here are my Book 6 predictions for Mark Evans, with the level of > confidence in parentheses. > 1) He will show up at Hogwarts as a Muggle-born wizard (99%). > 2) He will either be or appear to be Harry's distant relative (95%). > 3) He will be befriended by Harry, who will see the striking parallels in their circumstances and try to be a mentor to the little boy (90%). > 4) He will have green eyes (80%). Now me: My level of confidence that Mark Evans is a redherring - 100% Mandy ;-) From rayheuer3 at aol.com Tue Dec 2 22:47:50 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 17:47:50 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Query Message-ID: <137.2884845a.2cfe7096@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86345 Kathryn wrote: >> Wouldn't he have become the Headmaster the same year Minerva became >> Transfiguration Professor, since that was his job at one point? And if so, >> we *do* know that don't we? And Olivier replied: >That makes sense, in that case he would have been Headmaster since 1956. However, > that would contradict Lupin statement that I quote : >"It seemed impossible that I would be able to come to Hogwarts [...] But then >Dumbledore became Headmaster, and he was sympathetic." >This strongly indicates that Dumbledore was not Headmaster when Lupin was very >young, and Lupin is born around 1960. To which I (Ray) add: If we accept 1960 as the date of Lupin's birth, the timeline still works. Lupin would have then come to Hogwarts in 1971, after much debate about whether he should be admitted at all. In ancient institutions such as Hogwarts, it could easily take a new headmaster 15 years to make such a fundamental change in admissions procedures. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rredordead at aol.com Tue Dec 2 22:54:02 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 22:54:02 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Army In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86346 wrote: but do we know what went on during the Slytherin's > Defence Against the Dark Arts classes in the fifth book? If she (Umbridge) was secretly working for Voldemort(which I believe she was), isn't possilbe that she taught the Slytherin's the dark arts in her classes? Perhaps she was building up her own army whilst Harry and others built up Dumbledore's army. Any ideas on this? Now me: I was under the impression the Griffindors and Slytherins took Defense Against the Dark Arts together. I could be influenced by movie contamination but I'm pretty sure they are in class together with Lockheart in CoS and when Crouch/Moody is demonstrating the 3 unforgivable curses in GoF. Mandy From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 22:57:09 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 22:57:09 -0000 Subject: Snape Poisioning the Longbottoms? Was: Is Agnes Snape's Mother? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86347 Mandy wrote: > Even if Snape's parents were casualties of the war and even if Snape > blames himself for his parents being injured by Aurors, I still don't > see this as enough of an incentive for Snape to switch sides. If > anything it would make him more loyal to LV. However your theory > doesn't prevent something else happing to Snape which ultimately made > join Dumbledore. > Carol: You're right that having his mother injured by aurors would not motivate Snape to leave the Death Eaters. In fact, it would have had the opposite effect, and he would have gone after the aurors responsible with a vengeance. It makes much more sense to think that his mother was resisting his father's Death Eater activities and he put a curse on her to shut her up, permanently alienating his son and driving him straight to Dumbledore. Okay, maybe that's a bit too speculative, but we do know that Snape left the Death Eaters more than a year before the Longbottoms were Crucio'd. I think he would have been in on that little party had they been responsible for his mother's condition. As for Snape keeping the Longbottoms insane, how is he going to manage that when he's at Hogwarts nine months out of the year? Assuming that they would have recovered on their own if not for outside interference, someone who has easier and more frequent access to the Longbottoms must be responsible. (I do think, however, that Neville's knowledge of Snape's mother's condition might well be the reason for Snape's antipathy to Neville. He doesn't want anyone to know any part of his past that he considers embarrassing, and he may well think that intimidating Neville will keep his mouth shut. Not good, not sensible, but Snape all over.) Carol From kcawte at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 3 07:09:45 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 23:09:45 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Umbridge's Army References: Message-ID: <005001c3b96c$7f744a40$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 86348 > wrote: > but do we know what went on during the Slytherin's > > Defence Against the Dark Arts classes in the fifth book? If she > (Umbridge) was secretly working for Voldemort(which I believe she > was), isn't possilbe that she taught the Slytherin's the dark arts in > her classes? Perhaps she was building up her own army whilst Harry > and others built up Dumbledore's army. Any ideas on this? > > K What on earth makes you think she was working for Voldemort? She was a fanatical supporter of Fudge and the Ministry working against Dumbledore. I imagine if one of the Slytherins had been as outspoken about Voldemort's return as Harry was she'd have treated them in the same way - however with Fudge thinking Lucius is innocent and pure as the driven snow (yeah, right) she probably would have favoured Draco. K "The Loudest Noise Comes From The Electric Minerva." From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 23:09:04 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 23:09:04 -0000 Subject: Some Discrepancies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86349 greatlit2003: > In the first book, when Harry looks into the Mirror of Erised and > sees his family, he sees his parents and other ancestors, > including "other pairs of green eyes" like his own. A few lines > later, JKR writes that the *Potters* waved at Harry out of the > mirror. The green eyes are a connection between Harry and his > mother, and some of the people in the mirror are clearly members of > the Evans family Constance Vigilance (me): It is important to remember that the Mirror represents only the viewers "heart's desires". There is no verification that anything that appears in the mirror is true, in fact, my guess is that things viewed in the mirror are _rarely_ true. Dumbledore claims that were he to look in the mirror, he would see himself with socks. The inferrence is that he doesn't have enough socks, so the mirror is not reflecting truth. He further says that men have wasted away in front of that mirror. If those men were seeing truth, they would be out living it, not pining away wishing for what they don't have. In the case of Harry's desires showing lots of people with green eyes, it only reflects his _desire_ that he had lots of relatives on his mother's side. Similarly, that he had lots of relatives with his knobby knees. I think we can make no further conclusion based on that. We certainly cannot conclude that Lily's family is magical based on this input. Constance Vigilance From rredordead at aol.com Tue Dec 2 23:09:46 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 23:09:46 -0000 Subject: Snape Poisioning the Longbottoms? Was: Is Agnes Snape's Mother? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86350 Carol wrote: > As for Snape keeping the Longbottoms insane, how is he going to manage that when he's at Hogwarts nine months out of the year? Assuming that they would have recovered on their own if not for outside interference, someone who has easier and more frequent access to the Longbottoms must be responsible. Now me: It wouldn't be hard at all. A boarding school teacher has time off every week just like every other employed person. It seems to me very easy for a wizard to jump back and forth from Hogsmead to St. Mungos in a matter of seconds. I'm still not convinced of this theory yet but I find it very interesting. Mandy From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 23:15:21 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 23:15:21 -0000 Subject: Is Agnes Snape's mother? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86351 Carol: > > >Responding to my own post here--oh, my! The furry-faced woman who > > >barks! (OoP 512 Am. ed.) If she *is* Snape's mother, given his > > >animosity toward werewolves and other, er, aberrations (and a > certain > > >Animagus who turns into a dog), her condition must be humiliating > for > > >him. Marci: > > And I must add that the connection made to Agnes was a very good > catch indeed! Acronym for that theory anyone? The best acronym I found for Agnes Snape is PAGAN SENSE--not that it fits the theory, but neither does LOLLIPOPS. OTOH, we don't really have a theory that we agree on, only the common element that Snape *may* be the son of a dog-faced woman, a circumstance that his enemies would find amusing but that he surely would do his utmost to conceal. (Occlumency, anyone?) All we really know is that Agnes's son, who may or may not be Snape, visits her at Christmas and gives her presents. I wonder what's in them and whether she can appreciate anything other than dog biscuits. Carol, who hopes we don't have to wait for Book 7 to find the answers! From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 23:27:09 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 23:27:09 -0000 Subject: Harry's ideal ending & my idea of a horrible ending In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86352 Carol: > > BTW, is there any evidence in canon for wizards losing their > powers? I think that would be a tragic loss for Harry. Loss of > fame, though, won't hurt him a bit. I think he can be "Just Harry" > without giving up the WW.< > Pippin: > Canon references to wizards losing their powers: > > SS/PS Ch. 4 "Most of us reckon he's still out there somewhere > but lost his powers." > > COS Ch. 17 "No one knows why you lost your powers when you > attacked me." > > PoA Ch. 10 "Dementors are supposed to drain a wizard of his > powers if he is left with them too long..." > > PoA Ch. 19 "You weren't about to commit murder right under > Albus Dumbledore's nose, for a wreck of a wizard who'd lost all > of his power, were you?" > > And Malfoy says something like, "Your dad likes Muggles so > much he ought to snap his wand in two and go join them" but I > can't remember the reference. LOONS? Carol: So except for Voldemort (who lost his powers through an AK that backfired), there are no wizards that we know of who've lost their powers by any means other than a dementor's kiss? I don't think having your wand broken counts since you'd still have your powers, you just wouldn't have the means of using them--sort of like having your piano destroyed but still being able to play it. (Imperfect analogy, I know!) So does anyone think it's feasible that Harry might lose his powers in the fight with Voldemort? I doubt that he's going to cast an AK that backfires and turn into VaporHarry. JKR wouldn't do that to us--or him. Carol From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no Wed Dec 3 00:11:46 2003 From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 00:11:46 -0000 Subject: Titled characters (WAS Voldemort's "lordship") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86353 --- In HPforGrownups, Carol wrote: [snip] > I think you're right. IIRC, the signers of the Magna Carta were > referred to as barons. So if the Bloody Baron is British, he > would have to date from the Norman era or earlier. I'm not aware > of any British barons in the fifteenth century; they were all > dukes, earls, and lords (perhaps technically barons but not > referred to as such). No. 1. You will not find Barons in any part of Britain prior to the Norman invasion - it is a rank of nobility introduced to the British isles by the Normans. 2. There have, since the norman invasion, always been barons in Britain. Baron (Baroness) is a specific rank in the British nobility. Duke (Duchess) is another, different specific rank in the British nobility, and a Duke (Duchess) is not a Baron unless he (she) happens to hold a separate title as Baron. The same is the case for Marquess (Marchioness), Earl (Countess), and Viscount (Viscountess). 3. There were plenty of Barons in Britain in the 15th century, just as there were in the 12th, 13th, 14th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries (and possibly the 11th - but the Norman invasion took place relatively late in that century), and just as there are in this century. While commonly all Barons, Viscounts, Earls, and Marquesses are referred to as Lord as a courtesy, that is because they are members of the House of Lords, and it does not mean they are Barons, Viscounts, Earls or Marquesses any less. Moreover it is quite common in the case of hereditary titles to include just what the person is, even when using the style of Lord - as such the present Lord Newton, Richard Thomas Legh, is the 5th Baron Newton, and head of the Legh- family (as an aside, in larger noble families, it is not atypical that there is more than one branch which is in possession of some title or other - thus the head of the Campbells is, AFAIK, the Duke of Argyll (who I believe also holds 13 other titles covering the whole range from Baron to Duke), but another Campbell is the Earl of Cawdor, and there are other titled Campbell-branches as well). 4. If the Bloody Baron was anything more than a Baron (i.e. a viscount, an Earl, a Marquess, or a Duke, all of which rank higher than Baron), he would have been referred to as such - after all, embodying the Slytherin ideal, as one would expect the house ghost of Slytherin to do, he would want to be as exalted as possible. If he had been anything less than a Baron (e.g. a Baronet or a manorial lord), he would in all likelihood have been called on it by one nearly headless Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington, who would be sensitive about anyone getting an inch more than they should - witness his bitterness about not being allowed in the Headless Hunt because of his nearly-headlessness. > Now if we knew the Bloody Baron's name or had heard him speak, > a guess at his nationality would be easier. I still think that > if he were British, he would be styled as a lord, not a baron. > He also strikes me as having a kind of Gothic/Durmstrang air > about him, appropriate to the ghost of Slytherin, whereas Sir > Nick is what Elizabeth I would call "pure English" and > undoubtedly graduated from Hogwarts. It can be argued that Queen Mary I of England, daughter of Henry VIII and nicknamed Bloody Mary, was as English as they come, without seeming to have overly much in common with Nearly Headless Nick's mannerisms. Moreover, presuming that the Bloody Baron went to Durmstrang would then require an explanation of how he came to Hogwarts as a ghost, and - at least as importantly - how he came to be accepted as the Slytherin House Ghost at Hogwarts. The "old Boys"-system of Hogwarts is likely to be very strong, particularly among ghosts, and I find it hard to believe that they at all would allow an outsider to become the head ghost of Slytherin - particularly Slytherin, which seems to be the least accomodating of all the four Hogwarts houses. Best regards Christian Stub? From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 00:21:10 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 00:21:10 -0000 Subject: Lupin's untainted chocolate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86354 Pippin: > Just to clarify, my theory is not that the chocolate itself was > tainted. But JKR may be deliberately evoking the sinister urban > folklore of the stranger with his bag of candy. > > When I was growing up children were constantly being told they > should not, under any circumstances, accept candy from a > stranger, especially not one who seemed to know more about > them than he should, and in a situation, like a train trip, where > no parent was likely to intervene. The ostensible reason was > that the candy might be poisoned, that being the only reason > that most parents and teachers were willing to discuss. > > If ESE!Lupin proves out, the incident is the kind that we can look > back on and see foreshadowing, as we now do with the > Grim=death omen scenes. Even though the black dog Harry > sees is not the Grim, the association with death omens turned > out to be highly significant. In the same way, even though Lupin > is not trying to poison anybody in that scene, it may be > significant that there are sinister associations attached to his > actions. Carol: I think we're supposed to be suspicious of Lupin (Why does he look ill? Why is he sleeping? Why is he so poor? If he just became a professor, why are the letters spelling out "Professor R.J. Lupin" already peeling? and so on throughout the book.) Even his name, Remus Lupin, suggests a connection with wolves, and he behaves rather suspiciously when Harry mentions his father. After two bad DADA professors, we have our suspicions about this one. And when he throws his arms around the supposed murderer, Sirius, the reader feels shocked and yet somehow vindicated (validated?). ("I knew he was no good!") But then we hear their story, with some initial confusion and skepticism that no doubt mirrors Harry's, and the pieces fall into place. Ah! Lupin isn't quite the obvious suspect that Snape was in SS/PS (that's closer to Sirius's role) but the suggestions that he's evil are red herrings. (Sirius, no the other hand, merely slashes portraits and bed clothes and really does intend to commit murder--just not the murder we suspect him of. So, of course, like Snape, who is merely mean to his students and likes to swoop around the hallways like a bat at nighttime, he must be a good guy.) Not sure where I'm going with this, except that I think we have two sets of red herrings here--the obvious ones leading us to share the WW's view that Sirius is a mass murderer out to kill Harry for his master, Voldemort, and a second, more subtle set that resembles the clues in GoF, where we have about five people with both the motive and the opportunity to have put Harry's name in the goblet in hopes of getting him killed. And (except for the two Crouches) those people, like Lupin and Snape in earlier books, are still not absolutely cleared of all suspicion. Is Ludo Bagman evil (or, more likely, corrupt)? What about Karkaroff? Is he just a coward who will be caught and punished by Voldemort, or will he turn traitor and betray Snape (again)? Is Madame Maxime really a good guy? And what about Viktor Krum, who obviously didn't want Harry's name in the goblet but didn't resist the Imperius curse and was manipulated a little too easily into Crucioing poor Cedric? So the hints or clues that were used to make us suspicious of Lupin still hang around him just as they do with these other people. But as far as I can see, is that the evidence pointing to Lupin (and Snape) as a good guy is much stronger than anything pointing in the other direction. Carol, who thinks that Bellatrix killed Sirius (but could, of course, be completely wrong) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 00:41:30 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 00:41:30 -0000 Subject: Some points in OOP In-Reply-To: <10e.2996e12b.2cfe3b22@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86355 > Well, great. I just read the chapter closer, and some days elapse between > the night on the closed ward and the argument between Sirius and Snape. Still, > it's an interesting theory. > > Amber Carol: You're right. The Sirius/Snape scene occurs on the last day of the holidays. I don't suppose that information shoots down the theory completely--Snape could have made one visit on Christmas and another on the last night before he returned to the school, but the theory suddenly seems less exciting and plausible than it did when the visit appeared to be on the same night as the confrontation with Sirius. Still, the other people in the ward have a clear relation to the plot, Lockhart in a previous book, Bode later in OoP, the Longbottoms (we can safely assume) in Book 6 or 7, so why just throw in Agnes and her son? Like the mention of Mark Evans earlier in the book, it's a definite clue. So are Snape's traveling cloak and his twice-mentioned need to leave in a hurry. He has some sort of urgent personal business that he doesn't feel compelled to share with Sirius, as he might if it related to the Order. ("See, I'm out here risking my life for Our Side and you're staying home killing doxies!") The question is, do these pieces belong the same puzzle? Carol From kcawte at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 3 08:48:01 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 00:48:01 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Titled characters (WAS Voldemort's "lordship") References: Message-ID: <007101c3b97a$294c70d0$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 86356 Christian Stub 4. If the Bloody Baron was anything more than a Baron (i.e. a viscount, an Earl, a Marquess, or a Duke, all of which rank higher than Baron), he would have been referred to as such - after all, embodying the Slytherin ideal, as one would expect the house ghost of Slytherin to do, he would want to be as exalted as possible. If he had been anything less than a Baron (e.g. a Baronet or a manorial lord), he would in all likelihood have been called on it by one nearly headless Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington, who would be sensitive about anyone getting an inch more than they should - witness his bitterness about not being allowed in the Headless Hunt because of his nearly-headlessness. K Bloody Baron strikes me as a nickname, similar to Nearly-Headless Nick, so he probably didn't choose it himself - thus he would have had no say in whether he was the Bloody Baron or the Bloody Marquis or whatever, I suspect is was chosen by whoever first used it because it sounds good and is reasonably accurate i.e. he is a Baron, but that doesn't mean he's not anything else as well. Secondly Baron would be a *muggle* title most likely - we haven't heard of any kind of titles wizarding aristocracy so I don't know that he'd want to stress his noble rank, whether it be Baron, Duke or King of England, amongst those who dislike muggles i.e. most of his house. I wonder if he even *likes* the title - after all everyone, even people like the Gryffindors who supposedly like Sir Nicholas, refer to him as Nearly-Headless Nick, and he's made it very clear he hates the title. If he does then I suspect NHN would let it go unchallenged just because it annoys him (assuming the ghosts mirror their House's feelings, for all I know they could be bosom buddies *considers writing NHN/Bloody Baron fic, decides not to*) I almost wish Harry had become a Slytherin then maybe we could have seen the Bloody Baron's version of NHN's introduction. *Do* the books say what he looks like btw? I asked earlier in the hopes of dating him and don't think I got an answer. K "The Loudest Noise Comes From The Electric Minerva." From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 00:58:03 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 00:58:03 -0000 Subject: Some discrepancies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86357 Sylvia wrote: > The most likely explanation for Mrs. Black's proprietorial references > to her ancient house is that it is, indeed, her ancient house. Both > her maiden name and her married name was Black i.e. she married a > cousin, a quite common occurrence in the tiny, inbred circle in which > she moved. I think the house always belonged to her side of the > family and that Mr. Black merely moved in after they were married, so > the house, in the literal and metaphorical sense, was hers. Hi, Sylvia. Any canon to support that, or just Mrs. Black's fanaticism and use of "my" instead of "our" or "my husband's"? My theory of the moment is still that Mrs. Black was insanely fixated with her husband's family, which she regarded as hers, but I'm willing to reconsider if the evidence is strong enough. We don't have any evidence of cousins marrying cousins with the same last name, only Black/Malfoy, Black/Lestrange, Black/Tonks (definitely not within the little circle), and Potter/Evans. Mrs. Weasley is apparently related to mr. Weasley, but we don't know to what degree or what her maiden name was. We also know that Uncle Alpheus (sp?) was a Black and willed his house to Sirius, but I'm assuming until proven otherwise that he was Sirius's father's brother. Present me with some evidence to prove me wrong. ;-) Carol From belijako at online.no Wed Dec 3 01:00:40 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 01:00:40 -0000 Subject: Bang! You're Dead. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86359 Carol wrote: Carol, who firmly believes that the unforgiveable curses should not > >be used by the good guys North wrote: I've never thought of that before, Carol. But then again, if the > good guys don't use AK, then they are presumably handicapped in the > fight against evil, right? Can the good guys afford that in a > situation when lethal force might be justified? > > Now, I understand that the same goes for other Unforgivables. If the > DEs use torture, which they undoubtedly do, then are the good guys > allowed to use it also? > > I'm new around these parts, so be gentle. Berit replies: There seems to be some confusion as to why "good" guys can't use "bad" means to defeat their opponents. My answer is that it's about the very NATURE of the unforgivables. You just can't detach actions from the people that does them. It's not like people are not unaffected by their own actions. Action and mind/intent go hand in hand. Remember Dumbledore's words: It's your CHOICES that decides who you are. So, if you choose to use any of the unforgivable curses, what does that make you? What does it do to your mental and moral make-up? How can anyone sanctioning killing, torturing and denying people their right to a free will, remain good? If Harry later in life chooses to let his hatred steer his actions, how will he be any different from Bellatrix? Sirius's words on how "good guys" using the unforgivables makes them just as ruthless as the DE's has already been quoted. But I found another Sirius quote which is just as interesting. Sirius's words highlights very well how someone's ethics always is very closely tied to their choices and actions! The extract is from PoA p. 274-275 UK Edition: Quote: (Peter speaking:)"'...I was scared Sirius, I was never brave like you and Remus and James. I never meant it to happen, He [Voldie] forced me... He... he was taking over everywhere... What was there to be gained by refusing him?' 'What was there to be gained by fighting the most evil wizard who has ever existed?' said Black, with a terrible fury in his face. 'Only innocent lives, Peter!' 'You don't understand!' whined Peter. 'He would have killed me. Sirius!' 'THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED!' roared Black. 'DIED RATHER THAN BETRAY YOUR FRIENDS, AS WE WOULD HAVE DONE FOR YOU!'" What is Sirius saying here? He is saying that one should stand by one's principles even if the end consequence is dire. And what's the principle: Loyalty. You just don't betray your friends. Ever. It'll probably get you killed, but it's worth it. Likewise, you just DON'T use an unforgivable curse. Ever. It might get you killed (like most of the members of the old Order were killed), but it's still worth it... If Sirius had been familiar with the Bible, he might have given Peter a little Bible verse :-): "What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit his very self?" (Luke 9,25). By the way; in the same passage, there's a saying that almost sounds like Dumbledore could have said it: "Whoever wants to save his life [Voldie?] will lose it, but whoever loses his life for [someone else] will save it." Maybe this is how Harry will defeat Voldemort... Berit From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 01:22:04 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 01:22:04 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86360 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermowninny719" wrote: > Carol wrote: > Here are my Book 6 predictions for Mark Evans, with the level of > confidence in parentheses. > 1) He will show up at Hogwarts as a Muggle-born wizard (99%). > 2) He will either be or appear to be Harry's distant relative (95%). > 3) He will be befriended by Harry, who will see the striking parallels > in their circumstances and try to be a mentor to the little boy (90%). > 4) He will have green eyes (80%). > > > > Now Hermowninny writes: > I've been watching the Mark Evans threads and also believe there is > something very significant about little Mark, but one thing keeps > bothering me.. > > Harry doesn't strike me as very observant. I can't quote anything, > but it seems to me that if Harry has all the facts, and we have all > the facts, and Hermione has all the facts, Hermione will be the first > to figure it out. If Hermione doesn't have all the facts, they keep > searching until she gets the facts--Even if Harry or Ron already had > the info (but maybe didn't know it). > > Is there > anyone else that has all the facts, that is at Hogwarts, and would be > interested in making this connection? Carol: I can think of at least three people currently at Hogwarts who know that Lily's maiden name was Evans: Dumbledore, McGonagall, and Snape. It's a safe bet that if Snape suspects a relationship, Mark is not going to be one of his favorite students. Dumbledore will also see the relationship (if any) as significant--he knows how important family is to Harry, but how he'll decide to deal with it is anybody's guess. McGonagall, OTOH, is responsible for sending out the Hogwarts letters and will probably be the one to suggest to Harry that he act as a mentor to Mark (whom he already knows by sight and who lives in his neighborhood). She might simply arrange for them to meet each other without mentioning the name, which I think *will* register in Harry's mind as his mother's if Mark also has what he considers to be his mother's eyes. (How many times have people pointed that out to him? He must think about it every time he looks in the mirror (unless he's fixating on his scar or his hair). Hermowninny: > To make my post more relevant to Carol's above... I do believe Mark > will show up at Hogwarts, that he will be (or at least appear to be) > a distant relative of Harry's, not sure how they will figure it out > or become friends, and I would bet Mark has green eyes. > > Hermowninny (who really wishes she could trust Harry more, but still > can't) I don't think we need to worry about Harry in the circumstances I've outlined. Even if he only sees Harry at a distance during the sorting ceremony, he's going to react to seeing him there: "Hey! I know that kid! He lives in my neighborhood. I thought he was a Muggle!" And Mark is going to think, "Oh, my God! It's that Potter who goes to St. Brutus' school for criminal boys! What's he doing here?" Since Harry has seen Dudley beating Mark up, he'll probably feel bound to be nice to him, especially if Mark is a Gryffindor. And if Hermione sees them together, do you really think she won't notice the eyes? Lots of "ifs" here, I know. But if there's a relationship here, trust JKR to be sure that Harry knows about it before the middle of the book. I suspect it won't take that long. We only have two books left, and if mark *is* important, that importance will have to be established early on. Carol From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Dec 2 21:04:58 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 21:04:58 -0000 Subject: The magic power of love. Was: BANG! You're dead! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86361 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: Kneasy: > Harry is nowhere near the standard of either, but he's lucky, lucky, lucky. > He's shown no sign of defeating Voldy and only manages to escape him > by the intervention of outside agents (Mirror, Fawkes, wands, DD). None > of these could have been foreseen by Voldemort. He's an umitigated > pest, so far as Voldy is concerned. Geoff: Don't forget, fortune favours the bold, even bold, unmitigated pests..... Kneasy: > Geoff, are you considering that Harry might be Voldy MkII? Or be tempted > in that direction? That'd throw him all right. Be a neat plot twist, too. > > But just what usable chinks are there in Voldy's armour? Geoff: You mean, another Gollum/Frodo setup? I wonder whether JKR would use a similar idea, knowing that the ROTK scene is so well known? Who would be the Gollum to deal with Harry? He has been "pulled back" on occasions from rashness by Hermione or Ron and other folk, even Sirius who has been accused of doing the other and egging him on. Also, of course, Gollum doesn't stop Frodo for the sake of Frodo's health. He stops Frodo because /he/ wants the Ring and fulfils the quest merely because he is so excited that he falls over his shoelaces and unfortunately falls the wrong way. Chinks? Well, we know the first problem with meeting Harry was that Voldemort lost his body. That was a bit of a setback to a student taking a PhD in Immortality. He also seems to have a measure of tunnel vision, not unlike Sauron and Melkor/Morgoth before him in that he wants to be top dog and will do anything to get there but overlooks the possiblity of things going on immediately under his nose orchestrated by folk so far removed from his ideas as to actually want to help each other to stop him from his policy of enlightened self-aggrandisement. Perhaps your theory of Harry providing a distraction while someone with a large hammer tiptoes up behind him could be right. How does that chime with the prophecy? Geoff (very tongue-in-cheek) From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Dec 2 22:45:18 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 22:45:18 -0000 Subject: Snape's Hiring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86362 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Julie" wrote: Julie: > I've a question that I hope someone can help me with, regarding the > end of Goblet of Fire and Order of the Phoenix. > > I've read each book several times (US edition), but can't seem to > find the information. I've been told through another list that JKR > clearly stated in O of P that Severus Snape's presence teaching at > Hogwarts was ordered and approved of by Lord Voldemort in order to > spy on Dumbledore. (She/he is emphatic that this is one more piece > of evidence that Snape was at the rebirth in the graveyard and is > really ultimately loyal to Voldemort and not Dumbledore.) Geoff: There is a fair bit of canon which points the other way. "'Not yet!' cried Karkaroff looking quite desperate, 'Wait, I have more!' Harry could see him sweating in the torchlight, his white skin contrasting strongly with the black of his hair and beard. 'Snape!'he shouted, "Severus Snape!' 'Snape has been cleared by this council,' said Crouch coldly. 'He has been vouched for by Albus Dumbledore.'......... Dumbledore had got to his feet. 'I have given evidence already in this matter,' he said calmly. 'Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death eater than I am.'" (GOF "The Pensieve" p.513 UK edition) Later in the chapter, Harry asks Dumbledore about Snape and is told that Snape has never been accused again of Dark activity. Harry asks: "'What made you think he'd really stopped supporting Voldemort, Professor?' Dumbledore held Harry's gaze for a few seconds and then said, 'That, Harry, is a matter between Professor Snape and myself.'" (ditto p.524) Unless DD is being completely fooled, his vouching for Snape should clinch the matter. Geoff From belijako at online.no Wed Dec 3 01:45:05 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 01:45:05 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Army In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86363 Mandy wrote: > I was under the impression the Griffindors and Slytherins took > Defense Against the Dark Arts together. > > I could be influenced by movie contamination but I'm pretty sure they > are in class together with Lockheart in CoS and when Crouch/Moody is > demonstrating the 3 unforgivable curses in GoF. Berit replies: I think you might be influenced by movie contamination :-) In the first class with Lockhart (the pixies), the first class with Lupin (the Boggart) and in the first class with Moody (the 3 unforgivable curses) the only student's names that are mentioned are Gryffindor names (Dean, Seamus, Parvati, Lavender, Hermione, Neville, Ron, Harry). So to me it looks like DADA is not taught as a double class but that there are only Gryffindor students present. Berit From belijako at online.no Wed Dec 3 01:51:09 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 01:51:09 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans - evans, Evans, EVANS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86364 Carol wrote: > I can just picture Uncle Vernon's and Dudley's expressions as they > open the door and see that familiar envelope in Mark's hand, > especially if he has Harry's eyes. Berit replies: My guess is that ten year old Mark doesn't just have green eyes... He might very well have red hair too! After all, he is an Evans :-) (Some time ago I wrote a fanfic where Mark is one of the characters; and he has of course cheeky green eyes and thick, dark red hair :-) Berit http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 02:01:32 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 02:01:32 -0000 Subject: Bang! You're dead. In-Reply-To: <006f01c3b95c$d045f000$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86365 Kathryn Cawte: Although on the subject of Bellatrix I wonder why Harry > didn't try and kill her rather than just hurting her - not that I'm saying > he necessarily *should* have tried to kill her, I'm just wondering why he > chose to try and cause her as much pain as he could (which turned out to be > pretty much none - but the intention was there, even if his subconscious and > his nature wouldn't let him follow it up)but not kill her. Carol: I think for one thing, he knew it was wrong, just as he had with Sirius in PoA, but he still wanted to hurt her, to give her a taste of her own medicine. (I'm glad for his sake that the curse failed, and not just because I'm concerned with his moral well-being. He could easily have been caught and punished. She probably would have screamed as she left with Voldemort, "Potter Cruco'd me!" and all it would have taken to prove her right would a Priore Incantatem of Harry's wand.) If he'd AK'd her, she'd be dead, lying there for everyone to see as evidence of his guilt. Even in his rage and anguish, he had sense enough not to risk that. > > Kneasy: > > Well, Moody did use the AK. At least, Sirius says so. Carol: Does he? He says Moody killed when necessary, meaning Rosier and possibly Wilkes, but do we know that Moody AK'd them? There could be other killing spells which aren't unforgiveable because they can be blocked. (If you've answered this already, just ignore it this time around.) > > Kneasy: > > Please! I can't see Harry as a parfait gentle knight, spotless in > > thought, word and deed. I suspect that his faults plus those bits of > > Voldy buried in there somewhere are necessary for his eventual > > triumph, even though he may not be around to celebrate. > Kathryn: > Wouldn't he be boring if he became perfectly good? Although some basic > understanding that rules are rules and apply to everyone not just everyone > *else* would be nice. Carol: He wouldn't be Harry if he were perfect. But I agree with Kathryn. He does need to learn and respect the rules without being absolutely bound by them like poor Percy. It's important for him to work within the bounds of "Good" as JKR defines it. And that means, first, acquiring some principles and standards that he will abide by, knowing that his enemy has neither standards nor principles, and then acting on those principles to do his duty and somehow destroy Voldemort. I think and hope that he'll come to an understanding of the importance of abiding by Hogwarts rules, first--which may alleviate some of the tension between him and Snape (and help them to remember that they're on the same side). But more important, he needs to understand the nature of Good and Evil--what he is fighting to preserve and uphold and what he is opposing. You can't preserve and uphold Good by doing Evil, at least not in the world of children's literature. We're talking about the WW, where the right choice may not be easy to recognize, but it does exist--not always the case in the real world. Carol From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no Wed Dec 3 02:22:02 2003 From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 02:22:02 -0000 Subject: Titled characters (WAS Voldemort's "lordship") In-Reply-To: <007101c3b97a$294c70d0$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86366 --- In HPforGrownups, Kathryn Cawte wrote: [snip] > Bloody Baron strikes me as a nickname, similar to Nearly- > Headless Nick, so he probably didn't choose it himself - thus > he would have had no say in whether he was the Bloody Baron or > the Bloody Marquis or whatever, I suspect is was chosen by > whoever first used it because it sounds good and is reasonably > accurate i.e. he is a Baron, but that doesn't mean he's not > anything else as well. [snip] But it seems the Bloody Baron does not mind this title. First, keep in mind that the Bloody Baron seems to have a way of instilling fear - not only in the students, but also in Peeves, and, I believe, other ghosts - which would grants him a recourse to make them call him what he wants to be called, at the very least when he is present. NHN, on the other hand, is not seen as particularly scary beyond the scariness of ghosts in general, and so does not have that recourse - he couldn't even control his own 600th Deathday party from becoming a scene of ridicule of his own person. Consequently, if the Bloody Baron does not like being called the Bloody Baron, he would not have been called so, except quietly - because, since ghosts seem to have the ability to become invisible, he could be nearby, listening. We would then see a situation where he out loud would be called one thing, but then NHN would give Harry and the others a quiet, silent word, that they like to call him the Bloody Baron because he doesn't like it - he does not. If he likes being called a Baron, then he would not mind being called a higher rank - Earl, Viscount, etc - either, but in that case, he would not like being called Baron if he in fact were something ranked higher than a Baron. When a person has more than one title, he/she is always titled at his/her highest rank, as seen with John Edward Hollister Montagu, the 11th Earl of Sandwich, who is also Viscount Hinchingbrooke and Baron Mountagu of St Neots - he is always referred to as Lord Sandwich, or the Earl of Sandwich; to adress him as Lord Hitchingbrooke or Lord Mountagu of St Neots would be seen as bad form. If he were something lower in rank than a Baron, it is likely again that NHN would say something about it, because he is seen as being bitter about the Headless Hunt and not being allowed to participate there. Now, consider also that the Bloody Baron is the one who has to deal with Peeves, and the one ghost ofwhom Peeves is afraid, and consider the following passage - in PS, Chapter seventeen, 'Through the Trapdoor', Harry, Ron, and Hermione have snuck out of Gryffindor Tower, after Hermione petrified Neville. Then they encounter Peeves: "They didn't meet anyone else until they reached the staircase up to the third floor. Peeves was bobbing halfway up, loosening the carpet so that people would trip. 'Who's there?' he said suddenly as they climbed towards him. He narrowed his wicked black eyes. 'Know you're there, even if I can't see you. Are you ghoulie or ghostie or wee student beastie?' He rose up in the air and floated there, squinting at them. 'Should call Filch, I should, if something's a-creeping around unseen.' Harry had a sudden idea. 'Peeves,' he said, in a hoarse whisper, 'the Bloody Baron has his own reasons for being invisible.' Peeves almost fell out of the air in shock. He caught himself in time, and hovered about a foot off the stairs. 'So sorry, your bloodiness, Mr Baron, sir,' he said greasily. 'My mistake, my mistake - I didn't see you - of course I didn't, you're invisible - forgive old Peevsie his little joke, sir.'" Peeves does not at all question that the Bloody Baron refers to himself as the Bloody Baron - and the books go a long way in implying that they have had dealings before, in that the Bloody Baron is the only ghost having any controlling effect on Peeves. Peeves is not stupid - if Harry had said something out of character for the Bloody Baron, Peeves would have realised it. Thus it seems that the Bloody Baron is perfectly comfortable with being named just this. > I almost wish Harry had become a Slytherin then maybe we could > have seen the Bloody Baron's version of NHN's introduction. Not so certain about that - I think the introduction would have been of the rather ghastly kind. > *Do* the books say what he looks like btw? I asked earlier > in the hopes of dating him and don't think I got an answer. If it is said, I do not recall it. He is described as ghaunt and bloody. For what it is worth, the fact that NHN defers to him, *may* be taken as a sign that the Bloody Baron predates him - but the Bloody Baron is such an intimidating figure that this is not a requirement. Best regards Christian Stub? From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 02:26:42 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 02:26:42 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans - evans, Evans, EVANS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86367 Dorapye wrote: > Hi, first-time poster here, been, um, just lurking for a little > while and plucking up the courage to add my ha'penny worth. > > In response to Carol: > > Carol (re Mark Evans): > > Interesting idea. At least we've got you believing that he'll > probably > > show up at Hogwarts! The parallels between his behavior and Harry's > > are also interesting--both bullied by Dudley and both standing up > to > > him. Harry is sure to take an interest in the little guy--a > > muggle-born wizard from the Dursleys' neighborhood who happens to > have > > his mother's former last name--even if he's not a relative. But I'm > > betting that he is, and that we'll know it immediately by the green > > eyes, which we've been promised will be significant. > Dorapye: > I'm slowly becoming more convinced by the Mark Evans thing, though > part of me still believes it may just be a red herring. > > However, if it turns out that Mark is indeed related to Harry, I > would be very interested to see how this makes Harry feel when he > realises that Dumbledore may have had an alternative choice to the > Dursleys of adoptive parents, ones that may have brought him up with > love. How might this revelation affect Harry's relationship with > DD? We've see the beginnings of adolescent awakening to parental > failings in OotP; perhaps finding out that DD *chose* to place Harry > with the Dursleys when another related family could perhaps have > been used to seal the charm he placed on Petunia's family will > finally rip to shreds Harry's trust in his benevolent mentor? > think just now...). Will he torment himself by wondering about the > childhood he might have had, if only DD had made a different choice > for him? If he was feeling frustrated by his powerlessness in OotP, > how might this rouse his sense of injustice? > Hi, Dorapye. Thanks for choosing my post as the first you responded to. Assuming that Mark is Harry's relative, he wasn't born yet when Harry's parents died and his father might even have been an unmarried boy of 18 or so at that time, so he couldn't have offered Harry the home he needed. More important, Mark's father can only be at most his mother's cousin; Dumbledore needed a closer relationship and Petunia was the only available candidate. And since Mark's parents are pretty clearly Muggles, it's very likely that Dumbledore was unaware of their existence. As far as he knew, Petunia really was Harry's only living relative. The WW has a hard enough time keeping track of squibs; it would be miraculous if they knew every wizards' muggle second cousin. Mark himself is a different matter. If he's a wizard, his name will have been written down ten years before OoP with the magic quill, and when McGonagall sits down to send out next year's letters, I'll be quite surprised if she doesn't make the connection. "Good heavens, Albus! A Muggle-born Evans in Little Whinging! Can it be--?" Carol, who's having fun picturing McGonagall's excitement at this discovery From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 03:09:45 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 03:09:45 -0000 Subject: Bang! You're Dead. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86368 > wrote: > > > Carol, who firmly believes that the unforgiveable curses should not > >be used by the good guys > > I've never thought of that before, Carol. But then again, if the > good guys don't use AK, then they are presumably handicapped in the > fight against evil, right? Can the good guys afford that in a > situation when lethal force might be justified? > > Now, I understand that the same goes for other Unforgivables. If the > DEs use torture, which they undoubtedly do, then are the good guys > allowed to use it also? > > I'm new around these parts, so be gentle. > > North Hi, North. I really think they'd cease to be good guys if they used torture and they certainly won't ally themselves with dementors. I think most of us here agree that the WW is in need of a good overhaul, meaning the elimination of slavery, the need to bring real justice to the justice system, the improvement of conditions at Azkaban, etc. In my view (and I have absolutely no idea whether anyone agrees with me), these are the goals that the Good side will accomplish or attempt to accomplish when the war is over. We have a big debate going on here over when and whether killing a Death Eater is justified, not in our own view but in JKR's. Even Mad Eye Moody in his auror days killed only Rosier, who went down fighting and blasted away part of his nose in the process, and possibly Wilkes. He always captured rather than killed when he could, even though Barty Crouch Sr. had authorized the use of the unforgiveable curses (which means he was using violence to fight violence and Evil to fight Evil). Whether any aurors used the Cruciatus and Imperius curses, we don't know. I doubt that the real Moody did (Imposter!Moody did, but he was a Death Eater). Barty Crouch Sr. was using "necessity" as an argument not only for changing the laws and making illegal curses legal (at least for aurors) but also tampering with morality and ethics, suddenly making the unforgiveable forgiveable. The result was anarchy. If it hadn't been for Harry Potter miraculously defeating Voldemort at the age of fifteen months, it's very likely that vigilante justice, blood feuds, and general lawlessness would have prevailed. Clearly, that can't be the outcome of the second war, or Voldemort would have taken over the world by 2003. (Seriously, I'm assuming that whatever happens to Harry, Good will triumph and Voldemort will be destroyed. But in my view, that can only happen if the Good side holds to its principles and does not use the weapons of Evil, including the unforgiveable curses. Now the question is, where does that leave them? Can they use only defensive spells or short-term hexes to protect themselves? They can--and should--do without Imperio and Crucio, but can they (morally) kill a Death Eater if the killing spell is unforgiveable? I don't think it's the fact that Avada Kedavra kills that makes it unforgiveable, it's that (unless you're Harry Potter) there's no way to block it. If there's another killing spell that can be blocked, that hasn't been defined by the WW as unforgiveable, I see no reason why it couldn't be used against a Death Eater in self-defense. As for Harry facing Voldemort, I personally hope that he tries to AK Harry and the spell rebounds on him again, destroying him once and for all. That would only work, of course, if it didn't destroy Harry in the process. He survived the first time, stronger than he would have been if it weren't for the scar, but what would be the effects the second time? Maybe to wipe away all trace of Voldemort, even the ability to speak Parseltongue, so that Harry is Just Harry? That, in my view, would be the ideal ending. I realize I've wandered rather far from your original question, but the problem is, I don't know the answer. I'm thinking that we'll find out more about how to fight Evil without resorting to the tactics and ethics of Evil in future books. There has to be an alternative to Avada Kevadra. And as for Crucio, Imperio, or torture in any form, I would say that those are the Death Eaters' weapons and the Good side cannot use them without tainting and corrupting itself. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 03:15:52 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 03:15:52 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86369 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > Coral wrote: > > Here are my Book 6 predictions for Mark Evans, with the level of > > confidence in parentheses. > > 1) He will show up at Hogwarts as a Muggle-born wizard (99%). > > 2) He will either be or appear to be Harry's distant relative (95%). > > 3) He will be befriended by Harry, who will see the striking > parallels in their circumstances and try to be a mentor to the little > boy (90%). > > 4) He will have green eyes (80%). > > > Now me: > > My level of confidence that Mark Evans is a redherring - 100% > > Mandy ;-) Okay, Mandy, I'll bite. Why do you think so? If you have anything new to add to the discussion, I'd like to hear it. I don't want to go round and round again on old arguments, though. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 03:24:51 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 03:24:51 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Army In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86370 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > wrote: > but do we know what went on during the Slytherin's > > Defence Against the Dark Arts classes in the fifth book? If she > (Umbridge) was secretly working for Voldemort(which I believe she > was), isn't possilbe that she taught the Slytherin's the dark arts in > her classes? Perhaps she was building up her own army whilst Harry > and others built up Dumbledore's army. Any ideas on this? > > > Now me: > I was under the impression the Griffindors and Slytherins took > Defense Against the Dark Arts together. > > I could be influenced by movie contamination but I'm pretty sure they > are in class together with Lockheart in CoS and when Crouch/Moody is > demonstrating the 3 unforgivable curses in GoF. > > Mandy The only classes that Gryffindor and the Slytherins have together are Potions and Care of Magical Creatures. (They have Herbology with the Hufflepuffs.) The best bit of evidence that they don't have DADA with the Slytherins is the class where Neville's boggart is Snape. Can you imagine Slytherins' reaction if they had been there? But if you count the number of boggarts, it's eight, not counting Lupin's. Harry and Hermione don't get to confront their boggarts but everyone else apparently does. That adds up to ten students: the five Gryffindor boys, Hermione, Lavender, Parvati, and two unnamed students that I assume are girls. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 03:37:53 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 03:37:53 -0000 Subject: Some Discrepancies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86371 > greatlit2003 wrote: > > > In the first book, when Harry looks into the Mirror of Erised and > > sees his family, he sees his parents and other ancestors, > > including "other pairs of green eyes" like his own. A few lines > > later, JKR writes that the *Potters* waved at Harry out of the > > mirror. The green eyes are a connection between Harry and his > > mother, and some of the people in the mirror are clearly members of > > the Evans family > > > > Constance Vigilance (me): > > It is important to remember that the Mirror represents only the > viewers "heart's desires". There is no verification that anything > that appears in the mirror is true, in fact, my guess is that things > viewed in the mirror are _rarely_ true. Dumbledore claims that were > he to look in the mirror, he would see himself with socks. The > inferrence is that he doesn't have enough socks, so the mirror is not > reflecting truth. He further says that men have wasted away in front > of that mirror. If those men were seeing truth, they would be out > living it, not pining away wishing for what they don't have. > > In the case of Harry's desires showing lots of people with green > eyes, it only reflects his _desire_ that he had lots of relatives on > his mother's side. Similarly, that he had lots of relatives with his > knobby knees. I think we can make no further conclusion based on > that. We certainly cannot conclude that Lily's family is magical > based on this input. > > Constance Vigilance I don't agree. The faces of his father and mother were their real faces. Probably the other faces were real as well, and indicate that Harry does have a family history even if he doesn't have much of a family. His desire was to be back with his family, but he had in mind only his parents. The mirror showed him his extended family (possibly members of his father's family as well), expanding on his desire with a reflection of the family he would have had if they weren't all dead. JKR has promised to show the significance of green eyes in future books. She has also promised to tell us what happened to Harry's grandparents. Just as the handsome, smiling young man in the photograph of Harry's parents' wedding comes back into the story in a surprising way, I think those green-eyed relatives and the knobby-kneed old man (clearly a Potter ;-) ) will turn out to be significant. I very much doubt that the mirror made those things up out of thin air or Harry's imagination, which has not been focusing on earlier generations. They are based on real people whose lives will somehow intersect with Harry's even though they're dead. Carol From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Wed Dec 3 03:36:36 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 16:36:36 +1300 Subject: Killing curses Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031203163512.0388a8b0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 86372 With all this talk about killing curses, I can't help but wonder what Remus and Sirius planned to use on Peter before Harry stopped them. Thoughts anyone? Tanya From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 04:10:04 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 04:10:04 -0000 Subject: Snape Poisioning the Longbottoms? Was: Is Agnes Snape's Mother? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86373 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > Carol wrote: > > As for Snape keeping the Longbottoms insane, how is he going to > manage that when he's at Hogwarts nine months out of the year? > Assuming that they would have recovered on their own if not for > outside interference, someone who has easier and more frequent access > to the Longbottoms must be responsible. > > > Now me: > It wouldn't be hard at all. A boarding school teacher has time off > every week just like every other employed person. It seems to me > very easy for a wizard to jump back and forth from Hogsmead to St. > Mungos in a matter of seconds. I'm still not convinced of this > theory yet but I find it very interesting. > > Mandy I don't see any evidence for time off every week. Snape never leaves Hogwarts during weekends or even during the Christmas holiday until OoP. (JKR says that the teachers leave Hogwarts during the summer, but that's only three months out of the year.) Think about all the duties and concerns Snape has at Hogwarts, not least keeping an eye on the Trio. Aside from the fact that I think Snape merits Dumbledore's trust, it's just too much of a stretch to imagine him going out of the way to drug Neville's parents. It's very unlikely that aurors are in any way responsible for his mother's condition (if she is his mother). It's much more likely that a Death Eater cast that nasty spell, which would provide him not only with a reason to leave the DEs (without their knowing that he had switched his allegiance) and seek revenge against them in his own time and his own way. Carol From a_williams1 at pacific.edu Wed Dec 3 04:32:02 2003 From: a_williams1 at pacific.edu (Aesha Williams) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 20:32:02 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4030 References: <1070404827.21025.14403.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <006001c3b956$66448b40$d8430a0a@bre.uop.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 86374 From: "jjpandy" Subject: Question about Ollivander and Harry's Wand Can someone give me the message number or name of the theory if one exists about Mr. Ollivander's knowledge of Voldemorte? The lists are just too massive for me to search on my own. Where is Hermione when you need a good research assistant? Anyway, I was thinking about the graveyard scene at the end of GoF when I realized that Mr. Ollivander is one of the few wizards who knows that Tom Riddle became Voldemorte. Dumbledore had once said (sorry, don't have my books) that very few people were aware that Voldemorte had been a student named Tom Riddle. But, in PS/SS, Ollivander knew that the brother wand to Harry's wand had been the one that gave him the scar, therefore, he knew that Voldemorte was Tom Riddle, since the wand had been sold to Tom Riddle. Now, was Harry's wand created before, at the same time, or after Tom Riddle's wand? Did Fawkes give up both tail feathers at the same time? How long had Harry's wand been sitting on the shelf in Ollivander's store? Note: Tom Riddle had purchased his wand over 50 years before Harry. Did Ollivander ever try to sell that particular wand to any other wizard? Was he waiting for the day when Harry would walk into his store and did he just have Harry try other wands first so as not to arouse suspicion? JJPandy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From blackgold101 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 04:37:16 2003 From: blackgold101 at yahoo.com (Marci) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 04:37:16 -0000 Subject: The Room of Requirement is the Chamber Pot Room? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86375 "thelinnealand" wrote: > Seems apparent to me but am unable to track down any posts about it. > It may also be the room where DD stored The Mirror of Erised - a > hiding place and a place to hide when that was what Harry needed at > the time. > Rebuttals anyone? > > Linnea (Lin nay uh It seems that DDs room full of chamber pots and the DAs 'class' room are one and the same, the Room of Requirement. I recently read SS again and wondered if the room where the Mirror of Erised was kept was the ROR. That was my first thought. Harry needed a place to hide and suddenly there was a door that was ajar. However, it was described like a classroom that was no longer used. My GOF book is on loan so I can't find the part where DD mentions the room and where he was when he found it (what floor?). Marci From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 20:39:18 2003 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 20:39:18 -0000 Subject: Fwd: Re: Harry's link to Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86376 --- In Hogwarts_or_Bust at yahoogroups.com, "mausita24" > wrote: > The prophecy states that "...one must die at the hand of the other... > neither can live while the other survives..." Too true. Harry is > stuck with the Dursleys, even though it is now only no more than two > months out of the year, as long as LV is alive. This is no life. He > is stifled when he is there. LV will stop at nothing to get him, so > he's always got to look over his shoulder. That is no life. On the > other hand, LV cannot live either. His obsession with Harry is > keeping him from his initial goal of 'wizard domination'. He can't > achieve it until Harry is dead. So, he's not living either. I read on Mugglenet an interesting hypothesis about this prophecy. It may be referring to the personas of Lord Voldemort and The Boy Who Lived and not necessarily to Tom Riddle and Harry Potter. If that is the case, could an third party (possibly Neville, who in SS showed the courage to stand up to his friends) be required to stand up to both personas in order to fulfill the prophecy? Julie From a_williams1 at pacific.edu Wed Dec 3 04:50:09 2003 From: a_williams1 at pacific.edu (Aesha Williams) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 20:50:09 -0800 Subject: Question about Ollivander and Harry's Wand Message-ID: <007a01c3b958$edc3d240$d8430a0a@bre.uop.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 86377 Sorry- I hit send instead of erasing what I needed to erase. So, here's what I meant to say: >From: "jjpandy" >Now, was Harry's wand created before, at the same time, or after Tom Riddle's wand? Did Fawkes give up >both tail feathers at the same time? How long had Harry's wand been sitting on the shelf in Ollivander's >store? Note: Tom Riddle had purchased his wand over 50 years before Harry. Did Ollivander ever try to >sell that particular wand to any other wizard? Was he waiting for the day when Harry would walk into his >store and did he just have Harry try other wands first so as not to arouse suspicion? I do think that Harry's wand was created at the same time as TR's. I have no canonical evidence to support this, mind you, I just think it's so. And so, I do think that Fawkes gave up the feathers at the same time, and Harry's wand was just sitting there. It seems, from SS (both the book and movie) that Ollivander has thousands of wands just sitting around. As the wand chooses the wizard, it seems that at the least the wand was made before Harry was born (or the prophecy made), because otherwise one would wonder if Dumbledore had Fawkes give another feather for the purpose of the wand finding Harry, in order to aid in his fight against Voldemort and be a particularly potent weapon. Of course, one could argue that that's *exactly* what happened. Aesha [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 04:57:02 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 04:57:02 -0000 Subject: Some Discrepancies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86378 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: greatlit2003 wrote: In the first book, when Harry looks into the Mirror of Erised and sees his family, he sees his parents and other ancestors, including "other pairs of green eyes" like his own. Then I (Constance Vigilance) wrote: It is important to remember that the Mirror represents only the viewers "heart's desires". There is no verification that anything that appears in the mirror is true Justcarol167 disagreed: The faces of his father and mother were their real faces. Probably the other faces were real as well, and indicate that Harry does have a family history even if he doesn't have much of a family. His desire was to be back with his family, but he had in mind only his parents. The mirror showed him his extended family (possibly members of his father's family as well), expanding on his desire with a reflection of the family he would have had if they weren't all dead. I very much doubt that the mirror made those things up out of thin air or Harry's imagination, which has not been focusing on earlier generations. They are based on real people whose lives will somehow intersect with Harry's even though they're dead. Constance (me) again: You are correct that Lily and James' faces were apparently accurate. But I still say that the mirror claims only to show the heart's desire. And we have canon proof that what it shows does not have to be true - it showed Quirrel giving the stone to his master. Of all the mirror's images (Harry's family, Ron's Head Boy, Dumbledore's socks), this is the only one whose time has come, and it proved to be a lie. It would be nice if Harry's heart's desire turned out to be true, but based on the evidence in the mirror, we can not come to that conclusion. If those in the mirror are magical, then the mirror seems to be claiming that Lily's family is magical. But there is plenty of canonical evidence ("Muggle-born Lily") to the contrary. If the mirror is simply showing Lily's family, then where is Petunia? I think it is showing Harry's idealized idea of what his family would look like. Lily's and James' relatives, minus Petunia who he hates, show up smiling at him. I just don't see how we can apply this as hard proof to conclude that these people ever existed. The mirror lies. Constance Vigilance From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 05:10:09 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 05:10:09 -0000 Subject: Titled characters (WAS Voldemort's "lordship") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86379 > --- In HPforGrownups, Carol wrote: > [snip] > > I think you're right. IIRC, the signers of the Magna Carta were > > referred to as barons. So if the Bloody Baron is British, he > > would have to date from the Norman era or earlier. I'm not aware > > of any British barons in the fifteenth century; they were all > > dukes, earls, and lords (perhaps technically barons but not > > referred to as such). > Christian Stub? wrote: > 1. You will not find Barons in any part of Britain prior to the > Norman invasion - it is a rank of nobility introduced to the British > isles by the Normans. Carol: Oops. I do know that. I should have said the Norman era, including the early Plantagenets to about the thirteenth century. I don't know how "or earlier" slipped in there. I know that there weren't any Saxon barons (only "earls" and "carls"--noblemen and commoners). So 1066 to about 1300 is what I had in mind. I referred specifically the barons of King John, who signed the Magna Carta in 1215, as evidence that the term "baron" was in common use in England in that era--as it was not in the fifteenth century to my knowledge. Neither the Yorkist nor the Lancastrian kings referred to their followers (or their enemies) as barons. To return to King John (himself was a descendant of William the Conqueror and pretty much a Norman), here's a translation of the first paragraph of the Magna Carta, which shows that yes, indeed, there were barons in England in 1215: JOHN, by the grace of God King of England, Lord of Ireland, Duke of Normandy and Aquitaine, and Count of Anjou, to his archbishops, bishops, abbots, earls, *barons,* justices, foresters, sheriffs, stewards, servants, and to all his officials and loyal subjects, Greeting. I actually think we agree on this point, but all you saw was my little slip ("or earlier") and not my main point, which was about the Magna Carta. (Well, Carol, you should try proofreading your posts!) Christian Stub? wrote: > 4. If the Bloody Baron was anything more than a Baron (i.e. a > viscount, an Earl, a Marquess, or a Duke, all of which rank higher > than Baron), he would have been referred to as such - after all, > embodying the Slytherin ideal, as one would expect the house ghost of > Slytherin to do, he would want to be as exalted as possible. Carol: This point I wholeheartedly agree with. But I still think that IF he's an English baron, he dates from about the eleventh through thirteenth centuries, not later. As I said, the English nobility of the fifteenth century did not to my knowledge refer to themselves or one another using that term. Christian Stub? wrote: > Moreover, presuming that the Bloody Baron went to Durmstrang would > then require an explanation of how he came to Hogwarts as a ghost, > and - at least as importantly - how he came to be accepted as the > Slytherin House Ghost at Hogwarts. The "old Boys"-system of Hogwarts > is likely to be very strong, particularly among ghosts, and I find it > hard to believe that they at all would allow an outsider to become > the head ghost of Slytherin - particularly Slytherin, which seems to > be the least accomodating of all the four Hogwarts houses. Carol: I don't see why the "old Boys" system should be particularly strong among ghosts, though I admit they're finicky about whom they admit to the Headless Huntsmen Club. :-) As for Slytherin being the least accomodating house, if he meets their standards for pure blood, ambition, and cunning, I don't see why they wouldn't admit him and in fact welcome him whether or not he attended Hogwarts as a Slytherin. I don't see any other Slytherin ghosts, for one thing. For another, he seems to be quite a strong character, able to control even Peeves, so strength of will and a touch of ruthlessness may have something to do with it. There is, of course, the question of how he ended up at Hogwarts if he's "foreign," which I concede is a bit tricky to explain. OTOH, if he's English, it would work out quite nicely for him to be from King John's era or slightly before, maybe the extremely bloody civil war between Stephen of Blois and Matilda (Maud the Empress), 1135-54. Since Hogwarts was founded in the late eleventh century, he could well have been a Slytherin. Not that the Normans wer in the habit of sending their children to boarding school, particularly in Scotland, but maybe they were ahead of their time. (Hogwarts, I assume, looked like a Norman keep and not a medieval castle at the time.) Carol, who is wondering why she's taking this topic so seriously. P.S. Christian, for both our sakes, I hope the Bloody Baron gets some dialogue in Book 6 or 7! From christianrooster at hotmail.com Wed Dec 3 05:22:13 2003 From: christianrooster at hotmail.com (Mark) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 05:22:13 -0000 Subject: The Room of Requirement is the Chamber Pot Room? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86380 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "thelinnealand" wrote: > Seems apparent to me but am unable to track down any posts about it. > It may also be the room where DD stored The Mirror of Erised - a > hiding place and a place to hide when that was what Harry needed at > the time. > Rebuttals anyone? Not here. The room of requirement and the chamber pot room are one and the same - or at least Harry thinks so. When Dumbledore was talking about it at the Yule Ball (in GOF), he said he took a wrong turn on the way to the bathroom and found the room. While in OOP, Harry mollifies Hermione about the room when he says Dumbledore told him at the Yule Ball. (She was there at the time, wasn't she? She might have heard and remembered - otherwise as I thought at the time it was the judgement of Dumbledore which trumps Dobby's judgement) Mark From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 05:25:20 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 05:25:20 -0000 Subject: Titled characters (WAS Voldemort's "lordship") In-Reply-To: <007101c3b97a$294c70d0$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86381 "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > Bloody Baron strikes me as a nickname, similar to Nearly-Headless Nick, so > he probably didn't choose it himself - thus he would have had no say in > whether he was the Bloody Baron or the Bloody Marquis or whatever, I suspect > is was chosen by whoever first used it because it sounds good and is > reasonably accurate i.e. he is a Baron, but that doesn't mean he's not > anything else as well. > >I wonder if he even > *likes* the title - after all everyone, even people like the Gryffindors who > supposedly like Sir Nicholas, refer to him as Nearly-Headless Nick, and he's > made it very clear he hates the title. If he does then I suspect NHN would > let it go unchallenged just because it annoys him (assuming the ghosts > mirror their House's feelings, for all I know they could be bosom buddies Carol: Actually the Bloody Baron never speaks but Nearly Headless Nick treats him with great respect and points out that he's the one in Hogwarts who can control Peeves. When someone (Seamus, maybe?) asks how the Baron became all bloody, Nick says delicately, "I've never asked." The ghosts seem to get along quite well together. The Fat Friar even asks for a little compassion or tolerance for Peeves, but he's overruled because Peeves isn't a "proper ghost." But I think the schools would benefit from observing the unity of the ghosts, who I suppose have put House rivalry behind them or maybe represent Hogwarts as it was before Slytherin left the premises. See the Sorting Hat's new song in OoP. > > *Do* the books say what he looks like btw? I asked earlier in the hopes of > dating him and don't think I got an answer. > Hm. You want to date someone who's all silvery and covered with silver blood, sends an icy shiver through you when he touches you, and can float or glide through the air and walk through walls and closed doors? That's as specific as I can get, I'm afraid, except that IIRC he's scarier looking than the other ghosts. Looking in the Sorting Ceremony chapter of SS/PS, where he's introduced for the first time. Sorry I don't have a page reference handy. Carol, who prefers to date living men From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 05:58:27 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 05:58:27 -0000 Subject: Killing curses In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20031203163512.0388a8b0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86382 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tanya Swaine wrote: > With all this talk about killing curses, I can't help but wonder what > Remus and Sirius planned to use on Peter before Harry stopped > them. Thoughts anyone? > > Tanya Carol: Sirius probably thought he had nothing to lose so I don't think principles or anything else would have deterred him from using Avada Kedavra at that moment. He'd already spent twelve years in Azkaban and knew he was facing Dementors if he was caught--and starvation, filth and deprivation if he wasn't. All he wanted was the satisfaction of avenging himself against Peter and committing the murder he'd spent twelve years paying for. If ever there was a desperate man, it's Sirius Black in PoA. Fortunately for him and Remus, Harry stops them from committing murder. He doesn't even know about the additional implications of the unforgiveable curse. He just doesn't want them to be contaminated by the act of wilful murder. Remus is not, of course, equally desperate, but I think he would have killed Peter as an act of loyalty to Sirius so they would share the same fate, whatever the consequences. Loyalty put all other considerations, including right and wrong, good and evil, out of his head. Even if there's a killing curse that's forgiveable in certain circumstances (such as self-defense or war), he and Sirius were about to commit willful murder so the means probably didn't matter. He was probably facing a lifetime in Azkaban regardless of which curse he used, and maybe even the Dementors because he was aiding a wanted fugitive. I think he would have used Avada Kedavra in those circumstances just to be on the same level as Sirius. Of course, there's no way of knowing whether this assessment is correct, it's the best I can come up with based on their respective characters and situations at that moment. An ESE!Lupin supporter would no doubt see it differently. :-) Carol From hieya at hotmail.com Wed Dec 3 06:35:59 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 06:35:59 -0000 Subject: Some Discrepancies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86383 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > JKR has promised to show the significance of green eyes in future > books. She has also promised to tell us what happened to Harry's > grandparents. Just as the handsome, smiling young man in the > photograph of Harry's parents' wedding comes back into the story in a > surprising way, I think those green-eyed relatives and the > knobby-kneed old man (clearly a Potter ;-) ) will turn out to be > significant. > Do you know in which interview she mentioned the green eyes and the grandparents? I couldn't find it. Thank you! greatlit2003 From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 07:31:00 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 07:31:00 -0000 Subject: Snape as a Spy, but for Whom? In-Reply-To: <007a01c3b91e$9515d7e0$d8430a0a@bre.uop.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86384 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Aesha Williams" wrote: > "Julie" : > > > > >I've been told through another list that JKR clearly stated in O of P that Severus Snape's presence teaching at Hogwarts was ordered and approved of by Lord Voldemort in order to spy on Dumbledore. ..edited... > Aesha : > > Wow, this is a wild theory. Well, JKR never said that Snape was > ordered by LV to begin teaching at Hogwarts. ...edited. > > > As for the cemetary at the end of GOF, I think most people assume he wasn't there. Voldemort says ... and one who's left the fold (I personally think he's referring to Snape). So while it's not explictly stated that he's there, I think he's not. > > Aesha bboy_mn: I don't think this idea comes from anything JKR specifically said or implied. But it fits with one of my theories (shared by many, and equally opposed) that Snape is a Double Agent (or maybe it's a Triple Agent, or a Double-Double Agent). I firmly believe that Snape initially contacted Dumbledore back near the end of the first Voldemort war, and offered to provide Dumbledore with information. He did this with Voldemort's full knowledge. Voldemort send Snape to Dumbledore with some sufficiently credible information to gain Dumbledore's trust; thereby allowing Snape to appear to be working for Dumbledore against Voldemort. But from Voldemort's perspective Snape is actually a false spy and is actually spying against Dumbledore for Voldemort. However, I believe some event occurred, probably related to the Potters, that turned Snape truly to the good side. The Reasoning Behind this- Snape has kept close ties to the Death Eaters, most notibly Malfoy, who escaped Azkaban. If they believe he were truly a spy against Voldemort, they surely would not have associcated with the traitor Snape, and would have probably done their best to kill him. So, the fact that he is still friends with old Death Eaters tells me that Snape still has good vibes with the Dark Side. In GoF, Snape is sent on a mission by Dumbledore; most of us speculated that mission was to get back into the good graces of Voldemort. This would have been impossible if Voldemort truly thought Snape was a spy for the good huys. But at the same time, Voldemort and the Death Eaters know that Snape is friendly with Dumbledore, still works at Hogwarts, and still present the appearance of a /reformed/ Death Eater. The only logical way he can be friendly with both sides, is if both side think Snape is a spy on their behalf. So, Voldemort thinks Snape pretenting to be a spy for Dumbledore while secretly spying for Voldemort. That's the only way that I can see that Voldemort would allow Snape back in his presents without killing him. And the only way Voldemort could possibly believe that now, is if that is exactly what he had Snape doing the whole time. Dumbledore thinks just the opposite; he thinks Snape is just pretending to be Voldemort's spy, but is secretly working for the good guys. As a double agent spy, each side would have to accept that at some point Snape is going to have to give up some valuable information in order to maintain his credibility. That part of the price each accepts as payment for what they hope will be much more valuable information gained. This allows Snape some degree of betrayal of each side, while still maintaining his good status. In the current book, Snape does indeed appear to be spying on Voldemort, and he does still appear to be associating with known Death Eaters. He tells Harry that spying on Voldemort is his (Snape's) job during the Occlumency lessons. He also recognised the place that Voldemort is staying when he sees it in Harry's memories. How else can this possibly be explained other than Snape being a secret agent for both sides. Now the question becomes, whose side is he really on. I think his true allegiance is to Dumbledore, but Snape still may have to do some pretty nasty things against the good guys before Voldemort is finally defeated. There have been many long detailed discussion of 'Snape as a Double Agent Spy' in this group. Although, I think I have summarized it pretty well here. Given the information we have in the books and tha fact that Snape is able to associate freely with both sides, I can see no other conclusion that is likely; many others that are possible but very few others that are probable. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 08:33:15 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 08:33:15 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans predictions - Mandy's View In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86385 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > > > > Mandy: > > > > My level of confidence that Mark Evans is a redherring - 100% > > > > Mandy ;-) > > > Okay, Mandy, I'll bite. Why do you think so? If you have anything new > to add to the discussion, I'd like to hear it. I don't want to go > round and round again on old arguments, though. > > Carol bboy_mn: Mandy, maybe the first step is to define a 'Red Herring'. The formal definition (Am. Heritage 3rd Ed.) - "Something that draws attention away from the central issue." It's not just something that distracts you, but something that distracts you FROM something else. What is the 'something else' that this Red Herring is distracting us from? If it's just a 'Got Ya'; a joke that JKR is playing on us, that seems like an odd ploy on her parts. If it's a Red Herring, then where is the other half of it? Just curious. bboy_mn From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Wed Dec 3 09:34:21 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 09:34:21 -0000 Subject: Bang! You're dead. In-Reply-To: <58F87BEC-24F3-11D8-B41E-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86386 >>Arcum: >I'd like to point out that we have no canon of Moody >having used the unforgivable curses as of yet. While he >didn't manage to bring in all the DE's he fought alive, >there are many other ways he could have killed them. Keep >in mind that none of the unforgivables in GoF were done by >Moody. And I do think most of the Aurors using >unforgivables were bad ones. Keep in mind it wasn't >limited to AK'ing. They could also use Crucio and Imperio. > >Kneasy: Oh, dear. An Auror, wand in hand, facing a foaming >at the mouth DE and he turns to alternative methods of >killing? Do you really mean that? I have this wonderful >vision of Moody beating him to death with his wooden leg >(yes, I know he probably didn't have it yet, but the image >is irresistible). > As appealing as the mental image of a Death Eater throwing curses at Moody, and Moody just whipping out a gun and shooting them is, no, I think he used magic, just not an unforgivable. I'm sure there are plenty of other spells Moody could use to kill someone, and if you are already known for not killing if not neccessary, it isn't too big of a stretch not to use Unforgivables for it. (And the guy is missing a leg, eye, and part of his nose. I doubt he's known for split second reactions anyways...) >Arcum: Also, I don't really think the whole bit with Bella >was a red herring. What she said seemed both consistant >with what Crouch has said about the unforgivables, AK in >particular: > >"Avada Kedavra's a curse that needs a powerful bit of >magic behind it - you could all get your wands out now and >point them at me and say the words, and I doubt I'd get so >much as a nosebleed." > >She hasn't really had time to come up with a clever lie, >IMHO. You'll notice that the moment when he casts Crucio >is when she drops the baby talk and starts taking him >seriously. > >Kneasy: Yes, I too think you need to be a powerful wizard >to get the spells to work and Harry isn't there yet. (So >Harry is not Voldy's equal yet, either.) I feel it goes >against the grain to rely on someone like Bella, >especially in those circumstances, for definitive canon. >Yes, she probably believed that Harry would not be able to >produce one at all, the fact that he can, although only a >partial success, changed her view of Harry. He just might >be able to do some damage after all, so get him to change >his tactics, is the way I'd read it. It's not definative, but it seems to fit with what Crouch was saying, how they are used,(esp. by Umbridge) and, as I've mentioned, seems related enough to how a patronus is cast to be plausable as a working theory. It also makes sense to me that the emotions and desires neccessary to casting AK successfully would be the opposite of the ones Lily blocked AK with... >Arcum: On another note, why does most of the information >thus far about unforgivables come from DEs? > >Kneasy: Hmm. Isn't that interesting. How is this to be >read? That baddies lie and to expect alterations to the >canon in later books? Usually it's the hero's friends or >mentors that do the exposition of how plot devices work. >Could it be that DD will come along and tell Harry he's >got it all wrong? Is this cheating on the part of the >author? Boo! Hiss! Not fair! Possibly. It would make things interesting. It also fits with DD's "don't give out information till it's too late" approach... >Thanks for taking the trouble to sort out the references; >very useful. No problem. One more reference I'm throwing in (from my other reply to this thread), Page 746-747 of OoP (US edition): Umbridge gets hot and bothered (not in quite those words, naturally) at the prospect of Crucioing Harry... --Arcum From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Wed Dec 3 09:51:53 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 09:51:53 -0000 Subject: Bang! You're Dead. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86387 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Arcum: > > In GoF, Harry has no reason to AK Sirius, and little > > opportunity to AK Peter. If you mean in PoA, Harry > > hadn't heard of Avada Kedavra yet... > > Carol: Sorry. PoA, of course. He *does* want to > kill Sirius and spends quite a bit of time contemplating > it. (How he would have done it without having yet heard > of AK, I don't know, but he wasn't contemplating HOW to > do it. He simply could not bring himself to commit > murder). And I didn't say that he intended to AK Peter in > Gof (meaning PoA!); I said that he *persuaded* Lupin and > Sirius not to do it, creating a life debt that Peter now > owes him and preventing them from becoming murderers. Right. While we don't know if they were going to AK Peter, it seems likely, and their emotion may have been enough to pull it off at that moment... > Arcum: > > While I think they'd probably wave the charges if Tom > > was killed by AK, I feel it is more a matter of not > > stooping to their level. A bit of dialogue I recall > > from PS/SS: > > > > "You flatter me," said Dumbledore calmly. "Voldemort > > had powers I will never have." > > > > "Only because you're too -- well -- noble to use them." > > > > I feel this would cover the unforgivables as well. > > > > Carol: I'm not sure about waiving the charges, but > otherwise I agree with you. Dumbledore doesn't use the > unforgiveable curses because he doesn't need them and > because he's "the epitome of goodness." That's the > standard of behavior we can expect Harry to follow. Good > is more powerful than Evil and neither must nor should > use evil methods to achieve its goals. (Barty Crouch Sr. > may have been good to begin with, but he became tainted > the moment he began to fight evil with evil.) > I'd say more that he tries to be the epitome of goodness. He stays on the path of good, but he does have his flaws. I'm convinced, personally, that when he talks about doing what is right rather then what is easy, he's talking about something he hasn't always managed, himself... Arcum: > > I'd like to point out that we have no canon of Moody > > having used the unforgivable curses as of yet. While he > > didn't manage to bring in all the DE's he fought alive, > > there are many other ways he could have killed them. > > Keep in mind that none of the unforgivables in GoF were > > done by Moody. And I do think most of the Aurors using > > unforgivables were bad ones. Keep in mind it wasn't > > limited to AK'ing. They could also use Crucio and > > Imperio. > > Carol: You're right. I was assuming that he killed Rosier > (who attacked him first and blew off part of his nose) > using AK because it's the only killing spell I know of. > Maybe there are other spells that can kill but are not > illegal or unforgiveable because there are ways to defend > against them, whereas AK can't be blocked unless you > happen to be HP or Dumbledore. A lot of spells could kill if used right. Using Accio on sharp objects behind someone, Wingardium Leviosa, stunning someone so they fall into something deadly (Sirius), knocking someone into something hard enough with Expelliarmus (Snape in PoA, only harder), etc... > Arcum: > > On another note, why does most of the information thus > > far about unforgivables come from DEs? > > Carol: I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean that it > comes from DEs because only DEs use those spells, you're > probably right. But other than Imposter!Moody and > Bellatrix, who has provided us with information on them? > I haven't yet checked out the quotes. Most of the theoretical information we have on the unforgivables seems to come directly from DE's, not anyone on DD's side. But then, that's mainly I!Moody & Bella, so there really isn't enough information yet. >I'm frankly relieved by > the idea that the real Mad Eye may have had some other > way to kill Rosier. If so, then the Good side has no > sufficient reason to resort to the unforgiveable curses, > and there's no need for Harry or the DA or the Order to > contaminate themselves by using them. That, to me, is > extremely important in maintaining the distinction > between good and evil as JKR has defined them. Right. Further, I suspect the emotions and desires Lily had when throwing herself in front of Harry were exactly opposite those needed to AK someone in the first place... Oh, and rereading Dumbledores reply to "why couldn't Quirrell touch me?" in PS/SS has several references to Harry being marked, right after Harry asking about what turns out to be the prophesy in OoP. I'm going to have to look at that more closely. DD saying "us" in this statement in that same section, "Not a scar, no visible sign... to have been loved so deeply, even though the person who loved us is gone, will give us some protection forever." when DD should be saying "you" bothers me, too... > > > Carol: Has anyone hunted up all the references in the > > > books to the Unforgiveable Curses? Who's used them > > > and in what circumstances and why they're > > > unforgiveable? That's what I really need to explore > > > before I take this discussion any further. C. > > > Arcum: > > Chapter 14 of GoF - "The Unforgivable Curses" has the > > most information. Chapter 27 of GoF has Sirius's info > > on their use by Aurors. Chapter 36 of OoP is where the > > infamous taunt by Bella is. > > Carol: Thanks. I'll print this list for future reference. > If anyone finds more info on the curses (not examples of > people casting them), please let me know. > No problem. If you are going to print it out, you may want to correct the bit about Tom killing his parents. He killed his grandparents and father, not both parents as I listed... > Arcum: > > Umbridge didn't end up Crucioing Harry, but threatened > > him with it, and started to cast it. > > Carol: Which shows that right away that she's evil. > Unlike Harry, who was in a state of great agitation when > he tried and failed to Crucio Bella, she was perfectly > calm in choosing to use an illegal and unethical > spell--not to mention hypocritical since she was trying > to ban defensive spells and potions that could be used in > war. I wonder if her magic (and her malice) would have > been strong enough to make it work. She seems like a > feeble excuse for a witch, but there's no question of her > cruelty (making Harry write his lines in his own blood). > Anyone think she's secretly a DE or in league with them? > (Arcum, do you have that page reference?) Page 746 of the US version of OoP for the threat, followed by crying out "Cruc-" with her wand pointed at Harrys forehead on page 747. She had "a nasty, eager, excited look on her face" and pointed at several areas on Harrys body "trying to decide what would hurt the most" prior to that. She's even mentioned as panting slightly while doing this. So, calm is not the right term to describe her at this point. This scene gives me all too clear of an idea why she gives Filth approval for whipping. I don't know about being a DE, but I think she has the same sadistic mindset. > Arcum: > > Krum cast Crucio while under Imperius. (which is > > interesting, actually...) > > Carol: Yes. Very interesting. Viktor Krum seems like a > basically decent person, but he hasn't been taught to > resist the Imperius curse despite having a DE as > headmaster (Karkaroff, in my view, is still a DE rather > than a former DE like Snape. He's a coward and a traitor > but he still teaches his students the Dark Arts.) I'm > worried about Krum; he may turn out to be a tool of the > bad guys if he's so easily manipulated. True. Also, the question of where the desire to cause pain comes from for the Crucio in this case. Krum? Or is it I!Moody's? I'd talk about the Weasleys lack of resistance to imperio and related spells (Ron's skipping, Arthur and the veela, Ginny and the diary, the possible Imperio!Percy) but that ground is well covered already... --Arcum From idcre at imap2.asu.edu Wed Dec 3 11:01:36 2003 From: idcre at imap2.asu.edu (backstagemystic) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 11:01:36 -0000 Subject: Is Agnes Snape's mother? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86388 >Carol: >>>Responding to my own post here--oh, my! The furry-faced woman who barks! (OoP 512 Am. ed.) [EDIT]<<< >> Marci: >> And I must add that the connection made to Agnes was a very good catch indeed! Acronym for that theory anyone?<< >Carol > The best acronym I found for Agnes Snape is PAGAN SENSE-- ------------- I'm loving this topic, but I must confess that I can't get the idea of "Agnes of DOG" out of my head long enough to contribute anything useful to it. ;0) BM From koukla_es at yahoo.es Wed Dec 3 11:37:11 2003 From: koukla_es at yahoo.es (neith_seshat) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 11:37:11 -0000 Subject: Fourth Prefect in the Weasley family Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86389 Hi, all I'm re-reading OotP, and I've just read yesterday night "The Woes of Mrs. WWeasley" chapter. There, at page 152 or 154 (Bloomsbury ed.) Molly states that Ron is the Fourth prefect in the Family. At that moment, we already know that Percy was a Prefect, and Bill as well, so them bpth and Ron make three. Who's the forth? Is it Arthur Weasley? Is it Charlie Weasley? Is it their long-lost brother Flint Weasley? Just a thought, Neith From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 13:01:52 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 13:01:52 -0000 Subject: Some Discrepancies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86390 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan Miller" wrote: > > If those in the mirror are magical, then the mirror seems to be > claiming that Lily's family is magical. But there is plenty of > canonical evidence ("Muggle-born Lily") to the contrary. If the > mirror is simply showing Lily's family, then where is Petunia? I > think it is showing Harry's idealized idea of what his family would > look like. Lily's and James' relatives, minus Petunia who he hates, > show up smiling at him. I just don't see how we can apply this as > hard proof to conclude that these people ever existed. The mirror > lies. > > Constance Vigilance All the mirror shows is Harry's greatest desire--to have a real family. The Evanses would be part of the family, so it's very likely they would show up with the Potters. However, it might be a bit more likely that Harry has seen pictures of the the other Evans side having grown up with Petunia--surely she has photos of people besides "Duddikins" around--say like her parents. So it's possible that the Evans are depicted acurately. Serena From LinneaLand at CS.com Wed Dec 3 06:16:42 2003 From: LinneaLand at CS.com (thelinnealand) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 06:16:42 -0000 Subject: Sirius Blacks Death Poll: New Option Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86391 The poll invites suggestions for Sirius' further involvement. The Veil room resembles a theater, court or lecture room with all attention directed at the veil. Apparently wizards gather to watch the veil do something. Prisoners convicted of even the most heinous crimes are sent instead to Azkaban. It therefore seems possible that some fate other than death lies behind the curtain. Perhaps the curtain was an experiment in travel gone wrong or is a gateway to another realm of existence. The possibilities are, in fact, endless. Tantalizing to think about and sure to be part of future books. From spang_b at yahoo.co.in Wed Dec 3 04:09:47 2003 From: spang_b at yahoo.co.in (spang_b) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 04:09:47 -0000 Subject: A strange silver instrument Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86392 Hi, In Order of Phoenix, the Eye of the Snake chapter, when Harry reveals his 'dream', Dumbledore uses a strange silver instrument. What was that? And there is something about 'in essence divided'. What was the thing whose essence was divided? And why did Dumbledore have to look up that thing before calling headmasters? Bye adi From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 14:43:51 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 14:43:51 -0000 Subject: Introducing New Theory SNUFF (Was: Sirius Blacks Death Poll) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86393 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "thelinnealand" wrote: > The poll invites suggestions for Sirius' further involvement. > > The Veil room resembles a theater, court or lecture room with all > attention directed at the veil. Apparently wizards gather to watch the > veil do something. > > Prisoners convicted of even the most heinous crimes are sent instead > to Azkaban. > > It therefore seems possible that some fate other than death lies > behind the curtain. Perhaps the curtain was an experiment in travel > gone wrong or is a gateway to another realm of existence. The > possibilities are, in fact, endless. Tantalizing to think about and > sure to be part of future books. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "thelinnealand" wrote: > The poll invites suggestions for Sirius' further involvement. > > The Veil room resembles a theater, court or lecture room with all > attention directed at the veil. Apparently wizards gather to watch the veil do something. > > Prisoners convicted of even the most heinous crimes are sent instead > to Azkaban. > > It therefore seems possible that some fate other than death lies > behind the curtain. Perhaps the curtain was an experiment in travel > gone wrong or is a gateway to another realm of existence. The > possibilities are, in fact, endless. Tantalizing to think about and > sure to be part of future books. Diana (me) replies: For me, there are several problems with the above theory that make me disinclined to believe that archway is anything else but a gateway between life and death. I believe Sirius Black is truly, irrevocably dead. Here are six arguments to support my theory, which I'm calling - Sirius Now Unfortunately Fatally Finished (or SNUFF). 1. Not a single adult (who cares about Harry) in Harry's life would keep Sirius from him and tell Harry that Sirius was dead if he had only gone to another realm or had a travel mishap wherein he could later be rescued. After Dumbledore told Harry everything at the end of OoP, Dumbledore wouldn't lie to Harry and tell him Sirius was dead if he wasn't really dead. I do believe that Dumbledore would know exactly what that archway is and wouldn't lie to Harry about it's true nature. 2. The Department of Mysteries contained mysteries of the universe and of being human. If wizards wanted to study these mysteries, they'd have to have a way to physically represent the abstract. We did get to see several of the subjects being studied in the DoM: Love [behind the locked door that melted Harry's knife and was referred to by Dumbledore in his office]; Thoughts (or even the very Process of Thought) [the room with the brains that trailed 'film strips' of thoughts]; Time [the room with the time turners and hatching/re-hatching egg in the bell jar]; the Solar System [described by Luna after she blew up Pluto in the Death Eater's face]; and Death [the archway], but more on death below. 3. The archway is a physical representation of an abstract event. If wizards wanted to study death, they'd need a way to 'capture' it or 'contain' it in a way that allowed a clearly definitive line between life and death, so they created (or discovered?, but I doubt that somehow] the archway to represent death. On one side of the archway you're alive and on the other (after you've stepped through) you're dead. It's like if you discovered (or even cut yourself) a portal into another dimension and then erected a wood frame around the portal to mark it, perhaps even to keep it open. So, when Sirius fell through the archway, he, literally, fell into death. 4. I suspect that the physical archway itself doesn't actually kill you; it just marks the portal between life and death. Maybe the archway even keeps the portal open in some way, but maybe not. The fluttering cloth veil covering the arch is JKR playing on the way poetry and other works of literature have referred to death as "passing through the veil" or "the veil of death". It strikes me as a sly, literary way of pointing out what the archway truly represents. 5. Harry, Neville and Luna are drawn to the archway because they have lost loved ones (parents for Harry, grandfather for Neville, mother for Luna) and part of them (an unconscious part) knows that their lost loved ones are just a few steps away through that archway. They even hear whispering voices, or at least we know for sure Harry and Luna do according to the text. Ginny's fascination must be due to her near-death experience at the hands of Riddle in CoS. Since Ginny didn't get all the way there, but, metaphorically, stood in the middle of the archway between life and death, she would naturally be drawn to what she came so close to fully experiencing. She is probably not even fully aware of the reason for the attraction I would surmise. We don't know whether Neville, Ginny or Luna ever actually thought about walking up the dais and through the archway because the book is told through Harry's point of view. We know Harry thought about it, though. Not only would the pull of seeing his parents draw him to the archway, but with Harry's burdens, death might represent a way to find peace, even though he didn't know at the time that that's what was pulling him toward it.. 6. Hermione, and Ron to a lesser extent, had strong misgivings, and even downright fear, about that archway because I think she knew instinctively what it was. She saw Harry and the others fascination with it and hurried them out of there because she probably intuited that the lure of seeing your loved ones again (especially for Harry) might be too much resulting in one of their quite unintentional but very permanent deaths. Hermione has very good intuition and, while it hasn't always been acted upon, she has been proven correct in her 'bad feelings' about events and actions many times. So, while I hate to see Harry hurting so badly because of the loss of his godfather, I have accepted that Sirius is really dead and won't be coming back. Diana L. From helenhorsley at hotmail.com Wed Dec 3 13:02:54 2003 From: helenhorsley at hotmail.com (dorapye) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 13:02:54 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans - evans, Evans, EVANS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86394 --- Hello - ooh! Something went really wrong with my first attempt at posting, so Carol, I do apologise that my post had your name attached to it as sender; don't quite know how that happened. Plus it chopped out several of my sentences which left a curiously suspended bracket and some nonsense (!). Cross fingers it works better this time. To respond to your reply, Carol Carol wrote: >> Assuming that Mark is Harry's relative, he wasn't born yet when > Harry's parents died and his father might even have been an unmarried > boy of 18 or so at that time, so he couldn't have offered Harry the > home he needed. More important, Mark's father can only be at most his > mother's cousin; Dumbledore needed a closer relationship and Petunia > was the only available candidate. And since Mark's parents are pretty > clearly Muggles, it's very likely that Dumbledore was unaware of their > existence. As far as he knew, Petunia really was Harry's only living > relative. The WW has a hard enough time keeping track of squibs; it > would be miraculous if they knew every wizards' muggle second cousin. > > Now dorapye: Yes, I understand Mark'd have to be something like second cousin at the very most, but I just wondered if Harry would rationalise this to explain DD placing him with Petunia, obviously his closest living relative, or if he would let his resentment for having to live with the Dursleys drive a bitter wedge between himself and DD. He certainly feels this very strongly at the beginning of OotP and even though DD has now explained to him why he must return to them every summer, I'm sure Harry is still feeling pretty hard done by, stuck with the Dursleys again this summer (and part of the next). If he allows himself to imagine that he *could* have been placed with a loving relative, even though DD has explained to him that he needed to use a close relative to seal the charm and therefore the blood ties to Mark's family will not be close enough, will Harry be ready to accept that explanation? Or will anger and frustration at the choices that have been made for him (by DD and also by LV) prevent him examining DD's choice rationally? I was just trying to tie Harry's possible response to finding he has other (magical) family members to the Harry we see emerging in OotP: a typically moody and angry adolescent, resenting the authority of adults and being treated 'like a child', though still some way short of ready to assume adult responsibilities. Not saying I think Harry will still be 'raging' at being in Privet Drive in Book 6 (maybe the loss of Sirius will help him gain a new perspective on his situation) just that, if Mark Evans is a relative of Harry's in the next book (likely, I think), it *could* introduce some interesting tensions in Harry's relationship with DD. For the record, Carol, I'm liking your theories, and your arguments with Kneasy, very much. dorapye From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Wed Dec 3 14:55:25 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 08:55:25 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape Poisoning the Longbottoms? Was: Is Agnes Snape's Mother? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c3b9ad$802c6620$d495aec7@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 86395 > Carol >I don't see any evidence for time off every week. Snape never leaves >Hogwarts during weekends or even during the Christmas holiday until >OoP. (JKR says that the teachers leave Hogwarts during the summer, but >that's only three months out of the year.) Think about all the duties >and concerns Snape has at Hogwarts, not least keeping an eye on the >Trio. Aside from the fact that I think Snape merits Dumbledore's >trust, it's just too much of a stretch to imagine him going out of the >way to drug Neville's parents. Iggy here: It might also be worth pointing out that in CS, Lucius Malfoy was selling poisons to Mr. Borgan of Borgan and Burkes. Borgan also commented, after they had left, that he didn't believe that Malfoy had sold him even half of the poisons in his house. If Malfoy doesn't have the skill to make potions that would keep the Longbottoms in their current state (and I believe he would, since Slytherins seem to be adept at potions... appropriate for a snake...), he definitely has the resources to have one made regularly and administered to them. BTW: I don't know if it's been mentioned or not, but there is a significance of the name Burke in "Borgan and Burkes." A long time ago, medical universities in England offered cash for corpses... a decent amount for the time, in fact... and they weren't all that careful to check where they came from. The better the condition of the corpses, the better the pay, since they were used for medical studies. Robert Burke was a man who actually earned his living by murdering people, and selling the bodies to medical schools. He refined a special technique of his own for killing people, that they named it after him... "Burking." (It's a method of suffocation...) Iggy McSnurd From helenhorsley at hotmail.com Wed Dec 3 13:19:16 2003 From: helenhorsley at hotmail.com (dorapye) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 13:19:16 -0000 Subject: Some Discrepancies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86396 I just assumed, when I read it, that the mirror reflected Harry's desire, not just for a family, but for the family who loved him. After all, he does have a family - the Dursleys are family, but they have no love for him. Therefore, what Harry sees in the mirror is his (sadly, all dead) family members who continue to watch over him and love him, albeit from 'behind the veil'. The family members who he sees all seem pleased to see him, waving and smiling, and his mother crying (with happiness that she can be seen by him? communicate that she is still there, loving him, even after death?) I saw this as a, um, 'reflection' ('scuse unintended pun) of JKR's own desire, not only to see her own mother's face again, but to know that she still has her mother's love, though she has passed on. Yikes - have I over-sentimentalised this? I have to admit, I always cry at this part of PS (not good when reading to a class of nine year olds!) dorapye From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Dec 3 14:50:30 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 14:50:30 -0000 Subject: The Room of Requirement is the Chamber Pot Room? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86397 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marci" wrote: Marci: > It seems that DDs room full of chamber pots and the DAs 'class' room > are one and the same, the Room of Requirement. I recently read SS > again and wondered if the room where the Mirror of Erised was kept > was the ROR. That was my first thought. Harry needed a place to > hide and suddenly there was a door that was ajar. However, it was > described like a classroom that was no longer used. My GOF book is > on loan so I can't find the part where DD mentions the room and where > he was when he found it (what floor?). Geoff: I don't think there is any indication as to where Dumbledore's room was. "'Oh, I would never dream of assuming I know all Hogwart's secrets, Igor,' said Dumbledore amicably. 'Only this morning, for instance, I took a wrong turning on the way to the bathroom and found myself in a beautifully proportioned room I have never seen before, containing a really rather magnificent collection of chamberpots. when I went back to investigate more closely, I discovered that the room had vanished. But I must keep an eye out for it. Possibly it is only accessible at five thirty in the morning. Or it may only appear at the querter moon - or when the seeker has en exceptionally full bladder.' Harry snorted into his plate of goulash. Percy frowned, but Harry could have sworn Dumbledore had given him a very small wink." (GOF "The Yule Ball" p. 363 UK edition) "'Good,' said Harry quietly, when she told him., 'because we've found somewhere to have our first Defence meeting. Tonight, eight o'clock, seventh floor opposite that tapestry of Barnabas the Barmy being clubbed by those trolls. Can you tell Katie and Alicia?' She looked slightly taken aback but promisd to tell the others. Harry returned hungrily to his sausages and mash. when he looked up to take a drink of pumpkin juice, he found Hermione watching him. 'What?' he said thickly. "Well.... it's just that Dobby's plans aren't always that safe. Don't you remember when he lost you all the bones in your arm?' 'This room isn't just some mad idea of Dobby's; Dumbledore knows about it too, he mentioned it to me at the Yule Ball.' Hermione's expression cleared. 'Dumbledore told you about it?' 'Just in passing,'said Harry, shrugging. 'Oh well, that's all right then,'said Hermione briskly and raised no mor objections." (OOTP "Dumbledore's Army" p.344 UK edition) (Just in passing, Hermione uncharacteristically gets some facts wrong. It wasn't Dobby who lost Harry the bones in his arm - it was Lockhart) Regarding the room holding the Mirror of Erised, the general description doesn't suggest the Room of Requirement to me... "Perhaps because it was dark, he didn't recognise where he was at all. There was a suit of armour near the kitchens, he knew, but he must be five floors above this.... It was a few seconds before he noiced anything about the room he had hidden in. It looked like a disused classroom. The dark shapes of desks and chairs were piled against the walls....." (PS "The Mirror of Erised" p.152 UK edition) ...in OOTP he was told to walk past the blank wall three times concentrating on their need. In PS, he finds the door immediately there and ajar. There is no reference to the statue, only a suit of armour. The interior of the room doesn't suggest that it has transfigured itself to his requirements. He hasn't asked for old furniture or even a magic mirror that scans his deepest desires. I would agree that htere is a case that the GOF/OOTP references are to the same room but I don't think it covers the room in PS. I have to saythat I'm not totally convinced that Dumbledore wasn't involving Karkaroff in a sublte leg-pull, particularly if he senses that Harry was eavesdropping and would appeciate the humour. Geoff From jjpandy at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 15:13:25 2003 From: jjpandy at yahoo.com (jjpandy) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 15:13:25 -0000 Subject: The Room of Requirement is the Chamber Pot Room? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86398 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > > I would agree that htere is a case that the GOF/OOTP references are > to the same room but I don't think it covers the room in PS. > > I have to saythat I'm not totally convinced that Dumbledore wasn't > involving Karkaroff in a sublte leg-pull, particularly if he senses > that Harry was eavesdropping and would appeciate the humour. > > Geoff JJPandy's reply: While there is a chance that the Chamber-Pot room is the Room of Requirements, I also thought that Dumbledore was just having fun with Karkaroff and trying to keep the mood "light" because Karkaroff was being a bit of party-pooper, trying to keep Hermione and Krum from enjoying a conversation and all. Also, we were given a little more insight into Percy's developing attitude: Percy was appalled at Dumbledore for sharing such a story during what he (Percy) felt was a very important event. I am sure that Percy thought that his dear Mr. Crouch never would have mentioned chamber pots in front of guests. -JJPandy From jjpandy at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 15:24:48 2003 From: jjpandy at yahoo.com (jjpandy) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 15:24:48 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans - evans, Evans, EVANS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86399 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dorapye" wrote: > I was just trying to tie Harry's possible response to finding he has > other (magical) family members to the Harry we see emerging in OotP: > a typically moody and angry adolescent, resenting the authority of > adults and being treated 'like a child', though still some way short > of ready to assume adult responsibilities. > > JJPandy's reply: I really can't see Dumbledore treating Harry like a child now that he has revealed the prophecy to him. And while Harry has been "moody and angry", let's face it: Harry has an enormous amount of emotional baggage to work out over the summer: the death of Sirius, Dumbledore's delay in telling him about the prophecy, and of course, the interpretation of the prophecy and the possible outcome. I am really hoping that Lupin steps up to be Harry's new father-figure, or at least a big brother to Harry because I don't want Harry to feel abandoned this summer. -JJPandy (who has always liked Lupin and just can't even accept the remote possibility that he is or will become evil) From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 15:37:25 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 15:37:25 -0000 Subject: Some Discrepancies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86400 Susan Miller wrote: > > > > If those in the mirror are magical, then the mirror seems to be > > claiming that Lily's family is magical. But there is plenty of > > canonical evidence ("Muggle-born Lily") to the contrary. If the > > mirror is simply showing Lily's family, then where is Petunia? I > > think it is showing Harry's idealized idea of what his family > would > > look like. Lily's and James' relatives, minus Petunia who he > hates, > > show up smiling at him. I just don't see how we can apply this as > > hard proof to conclude that these people ever existed. The mirror > > lies. Serena wrote: > All the mirror shows is Harry's greatest desire--to have a real > family. The Evanses would be part of the family, so it's very > likely they would show up with the Potters. However, it might be a > bit more likely that Harry has seen pictures of the the other Evans > side having grown up with Petunia--surely she has photos of people > besides "Duddikins" around--say like her parents. So it's possible > that the Evans are depicted acurately. Diana replies: I always got the impression that the mirror showed only the loving extended family Harry desparately wished he still had. He already had Petunia 24/7 up until he left for Hogwarts, so his heart's desire wouldn't be for family he already has, would it? Dumbledore has said: Sorcerer's Stone, Chapt. 1: "I've come to bring harry to his aunt and uncle. They're the only family he has left now." OoP: Chapt. 37: "I put my trust, therefore, in your mother's blood. I delivered you to her sister, her only remaining relative." By these statements, we know that Harry has no other living blood relatives on his mother's side. Unless Dumbledore was lying to Harry and concealing distant blood relatives on his mother's side (which I highly doubt, given Harry's emotional state in AD's office at the end of OoP), all of the Evans, except for Petunia, Harry and Dudley, are deceased. Petunia's rant in the Hut on Rock in the first book suggested to me that Petunia was not close to, nor fond of, her parents because of Petunia's obvious, intense jealousy of Lily and her parents' acceptance and pride of Lily's 'abnormality'. So I highly doubt whether Petunia would have a single photograph of her parents or extended relatives on display in her home. So far we have no idea how accurate Harry's vision of his relatives, other than his parents, were in the mirror. It's possible that his mind could have been making up faces to fit what he despartely wished to see his relatives look like. At this point in the story, Harry has never seen his parents and has no (conscious) idea of what they looked like. He sees his parents in the mirror and then at the end of the first book he sees his parents in actual wizard photographs in the photo album Hagrid gives him. Nowhere does it state, or even suggest, that Harry's vision of his parents differs even slightly from the vision of his parents in the Mirror of Erised. I supposed the mirror could have read Harry's subconscious memory of his parents when he was using the mirror because Harry did spend the first year of his life with his parents. Of course, Harry was only a year old and might not have ever met relatives that died before he was born, so that doesn't seem the likliest of explainations. If his parents' appearances were correct and not based on the deeply repressed memories of a one-year-old, then it would indicate that the other Evanses and Potters in the mirror were also accurate representations of his extended family. Besides, I can't see Lily and James getting married and not a single relative on Lily's side coming to the wedding. There's just got to be additional Evanses and Potters in those photos in Harry's photo album. While the mirror does 'lie', the truth of what the person desparately desires is absolute. For example, if Ron's vision had shown him accepting the Quidditch cup in a blue and purple uniform while wearing robes with Snarfblatt badges, Ron would have known the mirror was a lie and wouldn't have gotten excited about what he saw. He would have thought it a stupid joke. Next time you watch a movie and see an obviously made up brand name on a prop in the midst of the action, doesn't it pull you out of the action/drama somewhat? Well, if the mirror messed up the important details, it would be like the same thing. I get the impression that for the Mirror of Erised to work, the visions must be accurate in detail, even if the events/actions shown are never going to come to pass. So, whether the mirror reads the viewers subconscious mind and memories or magically knows all the important details(!), I would say that the appearances of Harry's relatives were all spot on. Diana L. From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 15:44:41 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 15:44:41 -0000 Subject: The Room of Requirement is the Chamber Pot Room? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86401 Geoff wrote: > (Just in passing, Hermione uncharacteristically gets some facts > wrong. It wasn't Dobby who lost Harry the bones in his arm - it was Lockhart) Diana writes: I don't think Hermione got the facts wrong, I think she just compressed some details for the purpose of speediness in warning Harry about trusting Dobby's judgement. Don't forget, Dobby is the one who bewitched the bludger to chase after Harry in CoS. And that same bludger was responsible for breaking Harry's arm, resulting in his unfortunate bone-removing treatment by the incompetent Lockhart. While Lockhart was the one who actually removed Harry's bones, that event wouldn't have happened at all if it weren't for Dobby bewitching that bludger in the first place. Diana L. From liz at studylink.com Wed Dec 3 14:54:55 2003 From: liz at studylink.com (liz) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 15:54:55 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Room of Requirement is the Chamber Pot Room? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86402 Geoff: > (Hermione quote) "Well.... it's just that Dobby's plans aren't always that > safe. Don't you remember when he lost you all the bones in your arm?' > > (OOTP "Dumbledore's Army" p.344 UK edition) > > (Just in passing, Hermione uncharacteristically gets some facts > wrong. It wasn't Dobby who lost Harry the bones in his arm - it was > Lockhart) Liz here: Just to be annoyingly nit-picky and to defend the lovely Hermione, she's not actually wrong. Dobby jinxed the rogue bludger that broke Harry's arm, which Lockhart then brilliantly de-boned. Dobby is definitely tangentially responsible for Harry losing his bones. I think Hermione is just being economical with her words and pointing out the unhappy result of Dobby's plan, rather than describing the entire process. Hermione is never wrong!!!! :) Liz From belijako at online.no Wed Dec 3 16:36:52 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 16:36:52 -0000 Subject: A strange silver instrument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86403 Adi wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "spang_b" wrote: > Hi, > In Order of Phoenix, the Eye of the Snake chapter, when Harry > reveals his 'dream', Dumbledore uses a strange silver instrument. > What was that? And there is something about 'in essence divided'. > What was the thing whose essence was divided? And why did Dumbledore > have to look up that thing before calling headmasters? Berit replies: Harry also wanted very much to know what the silver instrument was for, but before he could ask Dumbledore, there was conveniently a diversion, so he never got to ask, preventing not just Harry, but the readers from knowing. I'm positive Rowling didn't want us to know as of yet, and that's why I think there's more to it than what meets the eye :-) I believe what we are supposed to think, is that Dumbledore just wanted to know if Voldemort was possessing Harry inside the snake's body; if he controlled Harry in any way. That the snake that rose out of the smoke in the silver instrument represented Nagini, dividing into two snakes to signify that Voldie and Harry were "in essence divided" inside her, not "one" in the scene were Arthur was injured. Meaning Harry was not to blame for the attempted murder of Arthur. But I think there is canon evidence to support that Dumbledore wanted to know something more substantial than that. Here are the arguments: 1. Already mentioned: Rowling conveniently never lets Harry ask what the silver instrument is for. 2. Note the instruments colour: Silver 3. Note the colour of the smoke that the instrument issues: Green 4. What rises out of the greens smoke? A serpent's head. Silver, green, serpent/snake? All details that naturally make us think of the Slytherin house. What if the snake uncoiling from the instrument is not symbolic of Nagini, but of the Slytherin house; possibly the house's founder, Salazar himself (who was a parselmouth; remember, the snake's head in the instrument opened its mouth wide...)? 5. Dumbledore's strange comment when seeing the snake undulating from the green smoke: "Naturally, naturally" (OoP p. 416 UK Edition). And he was not at all surprised at what he saw, meaning he expected to see a snake... Then he asked "but in essence divided?" (same as above). 6. The silver instrument immediately answered DD's question by splitting the snake into two snakes. And this gives DD a "look of grim satisfaction". This sentence at once makes it ring a bell; making us think of another incident were the meaning of the wording is quite similar; when Harry tells DD Voldie's now SHARING his blood: Harry thought he saw " a gleam of something like triumph" in DD's eyes (GoF p. 604 UK Edition). 7. Then, in the same scene, just a few sentences later, Rowling repeats the "Slytherin clues": When DD walks over to the portrait of Phineas Nigellus. She describes Phineas as "having been painted in the Slytherin colours of green and silver. Dumbledore and the other portraits have to say/shout his name five times to arouse him: "Phineas, PHINEAS [large lettering is in italics in the book]" (OoP p. 419 UK EDition). Rowling really wanted us to notice Phineas's name, didn't she... According to popular beliefs the name "Phineas" means "serpent's mouth". So the words green, silver and snake/serpent is repeated in the same passage/scene. 8. As we already know, Harry is a parselmouth (a truly rare gift; as far as Tom Riddle knows he and Harry are the ONLY ones attending Hogwarts since Salazar himself to have this ability)), and the sorting hat nearly put him in the Slytherin house (confirming it in CoS, saying it was terribly hard to sort Harry and decide where he belonged, and that the hat still thinks he would have done really well in Slytherin). 9. CoS also emphasise how much Harry and Voldemort, the Heir of Slytherin himself, has in common: Background, physical looks, the ability to speak parseltongue... What if Dumbledore didn't just want to know whether Voldie possessed Harry that particular night, but wanted to know the nature and the extent of the connection between Harry and Voldie? According to the prophecy, Voldie accidentally marked Harry as his EQUAL when he tried to kill him. And we still don't know WHY one of them has to die at the hand of the other; why there can't be two of them. -Why there can't be two snakes (representing the Slytherin house?)... I won't speculate what this means, but from these clues I'm sure the silver instrument told Dumbledore more than we think it did. And I think it has something to do with Harry's connection to the Slytherin house and its heir, Voldemort. And in what way exactly Voldemort made him his EQUAL, making the prophecy state there can only be one of them... They're the same, but in essence divided... We'll know eventually :-) By the way; Dumbledore didn't wait to call for the help of the headmasters in the portraits till he had consulted the silver intrument: It says he sent Everard and Dilys out to look for Arthur before he checked on the instrument. He also sent Fawkes out as a scout first. So DD took care of all the urgent things first :-) Berit From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Dec 3 16:39:55 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 16:39:55 -0000 Subject: Bang! You're dead. In-Reply-To: <006f01c3b95c$d045f000$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86404 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > > "The Loudest Noise Comes From The Electric Minerva." > Kneasy: What's an Electric Minerva? Or am I going to regret asking? > > Be warned; Kneasy is only happy when he causes other fans to fly to > > their keyboards in a "We'll soon see about that!" frame of mind. K: > Which is a pity, because I think I'm generally about to agree with you on > most things, albeit with some conditions. > > Actually it sounds like you probably do subscribe to Machiavelli's original > meaning there though. The quote was originally something like (Sorry don't > have a copy of The Prince to hand, didn't expect to be using it in an HP > discussion, silly me) in certain circumstances the ends can justify the > means. He was talking about pretty much the type of situation we have in the > WW at the time - ie war and the survival of one's society. (The Prince is an > instruction manual for the potential ruler of a City) > Kneasy: Ah! Old Nicks Handbook of Practical Politics. Love it. He doesn't seem to have much truck with morality, does he? He goes for what he terms 'virtue', which seems to be a meld of pragmatism and just rule. His 'Discourses' are good, too. What do you think he would recommend in the circumstances? Death for Voldy, Malfoy, plus the other DEs and their children of course, with permanent exile for all who dissent. Seems reasonable. K: > I agree that JKR seems to be showing that morally (although not necessarily > legally) when and why we make certain choices ie killing someone, are very > important, in fact possibly more important than the decision in the first > place. Although other times it seems that the choice is important rather > than the reasoning behind it > Kneasy: JKR is undoubtedly a moral person, but I question whether morality is the most important criterium in the prevailing circumstances. OK, she may be trying to make her views evident, but she may be using a sledgehammer to miss a nut. Given Harry's situation - a homicidal, paranoid megolamanic is trying to blow his head off - would the morality of what he (Harry) does be at the fore-front of his thinking? Very unlikely. And then for DD to come out with "It's either you or him; best of luck." doesn't exactly offer many options. > K > I'm not so sure about that. I think the key question is "Are you willing to > kill *if necessary"? or was that what you were saying and I am > misunderstanding you? Kneasy: I'd go a bit further. Voldy is *the* menace. He's not going to reform and take up knitting. While he's around he is a permanent and continuing danger. That being so, the needs of Harry and those of the wider WW are the same. His death is necessary, no matter how, when or with what. And Harry has been volunteered via the Prophecy. DD may burble on about "choices defining us", but Harry doesn't have a choice. He's stuck with it. > K > I think that the whole system surrounding the unforgivables is idiotic > anyway. Cruciatus I can understand being illegal, regardless of > circumstances. It is there only to cause pain and while one could use it to > distract/disable an opponent there are other equally effective spells. > However Imperius and AK have their uses. Kneasy: Makes you wonder why they're described and circumscribed in the way they are. Back to the old argument that a gun is not evil of itself, only the way that it is used. K: > Although on the subject of Bellatrix I wonder why Harry > didn't try and kill her rather than just hurting her - not that I'm saying > he necessarily *should* have tried to kill her, I'm just wondering why he > chose to try and cause her as much pain as he could (which turned out to be > pretty much none - but the intention was there, even if his subconscious and > his nature wouldn't let him follow it up)but not kill her. > Kneasy: Too many wimps around. I've complained before about the totally unsatisfactory body count in the Ministry 'battle'. (This was in the original Bang! You're dead' posted months ago.) How credible is it that a bunch of desperate killers only manage one (presumed) corpse. And it's not certain he went down by enemy action. Not good enough. I'dve got rid of that idiot Lovegood child for a start; she'd make a very good blackened husk. She reminds me of the Madelaine Bassett character from Wodehouse - the one that thinks the "stars are God's daisy chain." Can't think of a more damning condemnation. > K (with snips) > As I was saying earlier he (DD) does seem to like to abdicate responsibility. > When he stands up to Fudge in OoP it's the only time I've really seen him > take action of any kind. Throughout PS he seems to allow Snape and Harry to > do all the work > He seems in fact to give Harry all the clues for how to get to the Stone in > case it was necessary but not done anything himself about it. In CoS other > than warning the students he doesn't seem to do much even when students are > dropping like flies. The extent of his standing up for Hagrid seems to have > been telling Fudge that he didn't agree with him, > In PoA he does nothing that we can see to try and > head off the inevitable confrontation between Lupin and Snape, apparently > choosing to let them settle it themselves. Knowing as he does at the end > that Sirius (one of the members of his Order, who obviously risked their > lives against Voldemort) is innocent but doesn't try and help him instead > seeming to let him survive on his own with no help from anyone, but then at > the end of GoF jumps back into giving him orders > He seems to agree somewhat with > Hermione about the House Elves (although possibly not with her methods) and > to agree that there is a problem with the way the other races interact with > wizards - but we've never seen him say anything publically. > > It seems to me Dumbledore is full of pretty words but precious few actions. > Kneasy: You missed one out. The Ministry battle again. Just how hard was he trying against Voldy? "There are worse things than death, Tom, so I'll let you off this time." Ha! If he is the most powerful wizard in the world, he's yet to prove it. Mind you, it does fit my theory that Dumbledore is the puppetmaster, making sure the cast stick to a pre-ordained script. Nobody seemed to like that theory much, either. But I can't come up with anything else that fits the facts as presented. > K > A very good question. I'd like to know more about how fixed in stone > prophecies are - did Dumbledore even try and actually defeat Voldemort > (rather than just defeating his individual attacks and such) or did he just > put all that responsibility onto Harry's shoulders when the kid was born? > And if so how justifiable was that - can prophecies ever be changed? Kneasy: Sorry to keep harping on about previous postings, but I had a go at this as well (Prophets without honour). Anyone can make a 'prophecy' - but only *after* the event can the accuracy be determined. Even then rationalising of the events may occur. It's probably a red herring concocted by JKR to keep us from digging into more potentially productive seams. > K > Understanding *why* something happens doesn't make it right however - do we > have any evidence that adopting these draconian measures actually did any > good? Or did they merely encourage more people to join the DEs? > .... Regulus for example > seems to have drawn the line at some of Voldemort's actions and tried to > leave, would he have done so I wonder *after* the authorities had imprisoned > his brother without a trial (he might not have liked the guy but he *was* > family, and that does seem fairly important to a family like the Blacks) > Kneasy: Not certain that the DE Popular Front was all that popular. If it was why did they need to Imperio! so many in the WW? True, there'll be a small sympathy vote from those who take the elimination of loved ones as a personal affront, but how many were actually killed by Aurors? Not many, maybe half a dozen, so far as I can determine. Potential supporters (like Regulus) soon realise the difference between a glorious principle and dirty reality. They'd need to be committed hard-core to stay the course. K: > I do agree with the quote but the WW doesn't seem to have bothered to define > 'necessary' when allowing the Aurors to use Unforgivables, the practice if > not the actual law seems to have gone from - no, under no circumstances, not > even in self-defence, to, as long as it's a DE and you can get away with it. > Kneasy: We're a bit in the dark over that. Obviously, there must have been rules, guidelines, whatever; we just don't know what they were. How would a DE be identified, anyway? Or were any mistakes explained as 'the worst case of suicide this week'? > K > > Actually a judge is there to pronounce on the law and nothing else - no > matter how much he may agree or disagree with the law. I'm sure most of the > pure-blood supremacists would argue that upholding the 'rights' of > muggle-borns is contrary to the good of wizarding society as they are, as a > group, the biggest threat to it. That's why human rights cover *all* humans, > regardless of whether they 'deserve' them, and why the law aplies equally to > all regardless of who they are, to protect everyone in the case that you > suddenly become part of a group that is seen as a 'threat' > > Kneasy: Normally I'd agree. But Barty was a hanging judge. Wheel 'em in - "Have you anything to say before sentence is passed?" - wheel 'em out to Azkaban. Effective, you must admit. Another theory (!) of mine is that old Barty was brought down by disgruntled Voldy supporters - young Barty was deliberately set up to be caught, putting his father in a cleft stick; nepotism or public disgust. And so enters Fudge - friend of many of Voldy's supporters. Suddenly, not so many DEs go to the slammer any more. Not so keen to find any, either. You may have the traditional view of human rights; all very noble. But our glorious leader, T Blair Esq., with the help of his little friends, is in the process of revising their applicability. Aren't we lucky! Star Chamber revisited. > > Kneasy: > > I prefer to believe that DD did know about it, and approved. How else > > could he get Harry protected against the Imperio! curse? No way could > > such a lesson be kept secret from the rest of the school; it'd be all > > round the common-rooms by that evening. > > > K > > Um, how do you back that statement up? Harry's Occulomancy lessons don't > seem to have become common school gossip so why would anti-Imperious lessons > (and you can't tell me Snape wouldn't have *loved* a chance to use it on > Harry, and Dumbledore had no problems with him humiliating him with the > Occulomancy lessons so I don't see him objecting too much) > Kneasy: Evidence? You want evidence? How unreasonable can you get? Only logic. OK. Just a bit. DADA has been a disaster for Harry's year. Bits and pieces and all over the place. No continuity or logical progression. Dark curses *are* part of the curriculum, but not normally until the sixth year. Moody comes in and tells them they are way behind with curses, and as a specialist (who is only here for one year), and as a special treat this is what we'll cover now. After all, who knows if you'll have a decent teacher available in the sixth year. OK, he was a fake, but why did DD get the real Moody out of retirement? A star Auror - very useful if you want young Potter to have some real protection. Occlumancy, on the other hand, is not on the curriculum, hence private lessons. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Dec 3 16:51:44 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 16:51:44 -0000 Subject: Bang! You're dead. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86405 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > > You don't however think, Kneasy, that you have chanced on the bit of > story which JKR wanted to keep under wraps and was worried that one > or two people had come close to it and she would be very upset if it > was rumbled? Kneasy: Well, I can see how some of the fans might be a bit upset at Malfoy choking his last as he goes down for the third time. Crabbe might feel at home, though. Hmm. Do they have a school bus to get them there? Or do you think that transfiguration will feature large in the future books? Possible, I suppose. Very difficult to think how, unless Harry becomes a Nagini look-alike. He could bite Malfoy on the bum. Geoff: > Also, in passing, are you equipped with enough wooden spoons for your > posts over Christmas? > Kneasy: Oh, yes! The holiday period will be a time to think up more outrageous theories guaranteed to disgust even the most base of posters. Hopefully, anyway. From belijako at online.no Wed Dec 3 16:59:55 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 16:59:55 -0000 Subject: A strange silver instrument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86406 > Adi wrote: > > Hi, > > In Order of Phoenix, the Eye of the Snake chapter, when Harry > > reveals his 'dream', Dumbledore uses a strange silver instrument. > > What was that? And there is something about 'in essence divided'. > > What was the thing whose essence was divided? Berit wrote: snip I won't speculate what this means, but from these clues I'm sure the > silver instrument told Dumbledore more than we think it did. And I > think it has something to do with Harry's connection to the Slytherin > house and its heir, Voldemort. And in what way exactly Voldemort made > him his EQUAL, making the prophecy state there can only be one of > them... They're the same, but in essence divided... We'll know > eventually :-) Berit replies: Just an interesting little detail I forgot in my previous post on Harry's link and connection to the heir of Slytherin and to the Slytherin house: In the duelling scene in CoS, Snape deliberately forces Harry to reveal he is a parselmouth. Why would Snape be so interested in knowing this? And more importantly; why did he suspect Harry was one? There is no evidence to suggest Snape knew about the incident in the Muggle Zoo where Harry talked to the Boa constrictor from Brazil... Harry hadn't even told Hermione and Ron about it. So there must be another reason Snape puts two and two together and wants to check if his equation is turns out to be correct: To find out if Harry's a parselmouth. Obviosusly Snape's guess was right: CoS p.146 UK Edition: "Snape too, was looking at Harry in an unexpected way: it was a shrewd and calculating look..." Veeeery interesting :-) Berit From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Dec 3 17:00:37 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 17:00:37 -0000 Subject: Snape as a Spy and Spy!Lucius, too! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86407 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > Snape has kept close ties to the Death Eaters, most notibly Malfoy, > who escaped Azkaban. If they believe he were truly a spy against > Voldemort, they surely would not have associcated with the traitor > Snape, and would have probably done their best to kill him. > > So, the fact that he is still friends with old Death Eaters tells me > that Snape still has good vibes with the Dark Side. > > In GoF, Snape is sent on a mission by Dumbledore; most of us > speculated that mission was to get back into the good graces of > Voldemort. This would have been impossible if Voldemort truly thought > Snape was a spy for the good huys. But at the same time, Voldemort and > the Death Eaters know that Snape is friendly with Dumbledore, still > works at Hogwarts, and still present the appearance of a /reformed/ > Death Eater. > > The only logical way he can be friendly with both sides, is if both > side think Snape is a spy on their behalf. Jen R: There is another logical explanation, one of my pet theories, and it's that Lucius Malfoy is a Spy as well. Now, I'm not saying Lucius is a good *person* or that he believes in the Order's cause, or even that he is not exactly as he's portrayed--a prejudiced, bigoted, power-hungry man. But Lucius being a pseudo double-agent would go a long way to explaining a few things. For one thing, how has Snape convinced Voldemort he is still on the side of the DE's? With Lucius's help of course. We have no evidence that Snape is friendly with any of the other DE's besides Karkaroff, who is no longer 'loyal'. We're pretty sure Snape wasn't at the graveyard. His link to Voldemort is through Lucius, LV's "slippery friend". LV is a shrewd dictator. He is not immune to the fact that Malfoy has power in the mainstream WW, has money, has pureblood status--all the things LV never had. Malfoy, while he may once have been young and idealistic and believed in LV's cause, is now older, wiser and more powerful---and he's not going to let some two-bit Evil Overlord who's not even pureblood (spits on floor) take anything away from him. My theory is that Lucius turned spy after the COS incident. Yes, he planted the diary, he was all for scaring the 'Mudbloods', perhaps bringing some family shame on the Weasleys by using Ginny, and closing down Hogwarts, but my guess is he had *no clue* that LV could actually return to life through that diary. That fact spooked him enough that he decided to work with Snape at least, if not the Order in its entirety. Who else planted the seed of "obtaining the Prophecy" in LV's ear, luring Harry Potter to the MOM, and having LV outed to the WW? Who was the one telling all the DE's "not to kill Harry" in the DOM even though the other children were expendable in his eyes? He knows Harry is the One, and much as he and Snape despise "Potter", they want him to do their dirty business and remove LV for good. Then they, or Lucius at least, can get on with the business of running the WW in whatever way he can--bribery, under the table deals, etc. No, Lucius isn't going to take orders from anyone this time around, especially a 'half-blood'. From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 17:20:10 2003 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 17:20:10 -0000 Subject: Pansy, Narcissa, LUPIN! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86408 A rose is a rose is a . . . lupin. I was reading another book (The Black Prince, Iris Murdoch, Look! More flower name synchronicity!) and the characters walked through a garden filled with *lupins!* I didn't know this was a flower. (I don't garden much. I've been urban for years now.) And as much as there is a "wolfy" connotation to Remus Lupin's name, I wonder if there is a connection to the Flower Power Theories. Some meanings for the flower "lupin" stolen directly from websites: Herbs and their hidden meanings: Lupin = dejection. (This certainly describes RL.) Blue Lupin - Do you suffer from frustration, depression or despair? Do you tend to make things more complicated than they really are? Do you tend to suffer from headaches and digestive disorders? (Turning into a wolf and eating people can cause headache and indigestion. Also could be that the lupin is used as a remedy for Dementer- associated illnesses. Hmmm.) Mimulus - Do you have fears of known things, i.e. illness, death, pain, heights, darkness, the dentist etc..? When you are confronted with a frightening situation do you become too paralyzed to act? (Had to throw in a reference to Neville's Mimbleplant.) Blue Lupin This remedy links the pineal gland, the organ of spiritual perception, with the pituitary gland, the organ of metabolic control and balance. The optimal functioning of these two glands is essential for eliminating confusion and remembering who we are. (Perhaps Lupin's future role in HP's life?) Lupin - Helps difficulties rooted in the past. Lets the light in and heals past issues. (Hmmm!) I admit that I was "rooting around," looking for evidence to support the ESE!Lupin theory, and lupin plants are mildly alkaloid and somewhat poisonous, but I'm not sure that's relevant. It might be more interesting if there's a wizarding family out there that uses flower names for children like the Black family uses astronomical names. This might suggest RL's lineage. Perhaps he's Narcissa's cousin on the side that uses flower names. TK -- Tigerpatronus One more bit of bizarre synchronicity . . . And now for something completely different: The Dennis Moore Sketch from Monty Python's Previous Record & TV Series England, 1747 (Sounds of a coach and horses, galloping) Cleese: Stand and deliver! Chapman: Not on your life (SHOT) ... aagh! (Girl screams) Cl: Let that be a warning to you all. You move at your peril, for I have two pistols here. I know one of them isn't loaded any more, but the other one is, so that's one of you dead for sure...or just about for sure anyway. It certainly wouldn't be worth your while risking it because I'm a very good shot. I practise every day...well, not absolutely every day, but most days in the week. I expect I must practise, oh, at least four or five times a week...or more, really, but some weekends, like last weekend, there really wasn't the time, so that brings the average down a bit. I should say it's a solid four days' practice a week...At least...I mean...I reckon I could hit that tree over there. Er...the one just behind that hillock. The little hillock, not the big one on the...you see the three trees over there? Well, the one furthest away on the right... (fade) (Fade up again) Cl: What's the... the one like that with the leaves that are sort of regularly veined and the veins go right out with a sort of um... Girl: Serrated? Cl: Serrated edges. Id: A willow! Cl: Yes. Id: That's nothing like a willow. Cl: Well it doesn't matter, anyway. I can hit it seven times out of ten, that's the point. Id: Never a willow. Cl: Shut up! It's a hold-up, not a Botany lesson. Now, no false moves please. I want you to hand over all the lupins you've got. Jones: Lupins? Cl: Yes, lupins. Come on, come on. Id: What do you mean, lupins? Cl: Don't try to play for time. Id: I'm not, but... the *flower* lupin? Cl: Yes, that's right. Jo: Well we haven't got any lupins. Girl: Honestly. Cl: Look, my friends. I happen to know that this is the Lupin Express. Jo: Damn! Girl: Oh, here you are. Cl: In a bunch, in a bunch! Jo: Sorry. Cl: Come on, Concorde! (Gallops off) Chorus (sings): Dennis Moore, Dennis Moore, galloping through the sward, Dennis Moore, Dennis Moore, and his horse Concorde. He steals from the rich, he gives to the poor, Mr Moore, Mr Moore, Mr Moore. From kcawte at ntlworld.com Thu Dec 4 01:35:42 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 17:35:42 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bang! You're dead. References: Message-ID: <001901c3ba07$059c1b80$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 86409 > > "The Loudest Noise Comes From The Electric Minerva." > > > Kneasy: > What's an Electric Minerva? Or am I going to regret asking? > > K That's my sig line but my e-mail prog insists on putting quoted text at the bottom and sig at the top and I forgot to move it. OT have been playing around with an ad slogan generator. You put in a word and it slots it into a slogan - hence the above sig. And I have no idea what an electric Minerva is but it sounds fun :) > Kneasy: > Ah! Old Nicks Handbook of Practical Politics. Love it. He doesn't seem to have > much truck with morality, does he? He goes for what he terms 'virtue', which > seems to be a meld of pragmatism and just rule. His 'Discourses' are good, too. > What do you think he would recommend in the circumstances? Death for Voldy, > Malfoy, plus the other DEs and their children of course, with permanent exile > for all who dissent. > Seems reasonable. > He's demand harsh and immediate punishment, probably death for those known Death Eaters (ie the ones who turned up at the graveyard) and there probably wouldn't be any dissenters. He might order their families killed too on the grounds that you should punish someone harshly or not at all - slight injuries are brooded over and eventually lead to rebellion. I doubt there'd *be* any dissent if Machiavelli had taken Fudge's place. > > > Kneasy: > Given Harry's situation - a homicidal, paranoid megolamanic is trying to > blow his head off - would the morality of what he (Harry) does be at the > fore-front of his thinking? Very unlikely. And then for DD to come out with > "It's either you or him; best of luck." doesn't exactly offer many options. > K Well that's all right I hope Harry's decided to ignore Dumbledore from now on anyway, he's never much help, provides information too late and why he thought that telling a teenager who's just lost the only adult he could view as a parental substitute that it was Sirius' own fault because of how he treated the Elf was a good plan is beyond me. He seems to have developed absolutely no skills for dealing with the emotional well being of people over the last 150 years. > Kneasy: > Makes you wonder why they're described and circumscribed in the way > they are. Back to the old argument that a gun is not evil of itself, only > the way that it is used. > K It seems pointless because there are other fairly easy ways to kill people with magic anyway provided you have any imagination - all the ways that are currently springing to mind are vaguely Wile E Coyote, but I think that says more about me than the magical world. > Kneasy: > Sorry to keep harping on about previous postings, but I had a go at > this as well (Prophets without honour). Anyone can make a 'prophecy' - but > only *after* the event can the accuracy be determined. Even then rationalising > of the events may occur. It's probably a red herring concocted by JKR to keep > us from digging into more potentially productive seams. > K I must admit I didn't read the prophecy threads. I wonder if at the same time as giving the prophecy about Harry Trelawney had added, oh and btw Dumbledore's going to die next Tuesday, he'd have been as keen to accept it as the only possible way things can happen and not tried to fight it. This idea that seems to be showing up in the books that prophecy is immutable and things *will* happen that way smakes of 'fate' and 'predestination' and neither of those concepts fit well with the idea of our choices being important. I wonder though is this why Dumbledore seems to ignore Harry getting into danger - he's going to die at the hand of Voldemort so as long as he's in danger from *other* things, he can't die? Snape obviously doesn't know this because he didn't know Quirrel was carrying around a guest so he could have assumed he didn't need to try and fight the hex on the broomstick because Harry couldn't be killed by Quirrel. Oh I'd like to have seen that - Harry falls off the broom and breaks his neck, Snape runs down to examine the body, looks up at Albus and says "oops?" > > > Kneasy: > Normally I'd agree. But Barty was a hanging judge. Wheel 'em in - "Have you > anything to say before sentence is passed?" - wheel 'em out to Azkaban. > Effective, you must admit. Another theory (!) of mine is that old Barty was > brought down by disgruntled Voldy supporters - young Barty was deliberately > set up to be caught, putting his father in a cleft stick; nepotism or public > disgust. And so enters Fudge - friend of many of Voldy's supporters. > Suddenly, not so many DEs go to the slammer any more. Not so keen to > find any, either. > K Actually I was thinking that Fudge only got the job because the best candidate was discredited just before he would have been appointed. Isn't that convenient for Fudge? Kneasy > You may have the traditional view of human rights; all very noble. > But our glorious leader, T Blair Esq., with the help of his little friends, is in > the process of revising their applicability. Aren't we lucky! Star Chamber > revisited. > K What can I say I'm a loony liberal and I won't say any more on this subject because it'd be terribly OT > > Kneasy: Dark curses *are* part > of the curriculum, but not normally until the sixth year. Moody comes in and > tells them they are way behind with curses, and as a specialist (who is only here > for one year), and as a special treat this is what we'll cover now. After all, who > knows if you'll have a decent teacher available in the sixth year. OK, he was a > fake, but why did DD get the real Moody out of retirement? A star Auror - > very useful if you want young Potter to have some real protection. > Occlumancy, on the other hand, is not on the curriculum, hence private lessons. > > K I agree it was an easy way of slipping it in - I was just arguing that it wasn't the only way. If he wanted Harry to learn something special he could have got Lupin to teach him, he was the first teacher Dumbledore had good reason to trust with something like that (being an Order member like Moody was - or wasn't because he was an imposter, but Dumbledore didn't know that for some reason). Actually Occulomancy is the first time we see him trying to make sure Harry learns something useful - the Patronus after all was all Lupin's doing - and that has a selfish motive as well as to protect Harry. Keeping Voldemort out of Harry's mind would protect him too - of course the lessons were probably moving Severus even higher on Voldemort's kill list (assuming that's possible). K > "The Loudest Noise Comes From The Electric Minerva." From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 18:17:50 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 18:17:50 -0000 Subject: Green eyes, grandparents, and the Mirror of Erised (Was:Some Discrepancies) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86410 Carol wrote: > > JKR has promised to show the significance of green eyes in future > > books. She has also promised to tell us what happened to Harry's > > grandparents. Just as the handsome, smiling young man in the > > photograph of Harry's parents' wedding comes back into the story > in a > > surprising way, I think those green-eyed relatives and the > > knobby-kneed old man (clearly a Potter ;-) ) will turn out to be > > significant. > > > greatlit2003 asked: > Do you know in which interview she mentioned the green eyes and the > grandparents? I couldn't find it. Thank you! > > Carol responds: I found the reference to eyes using "mother's eyes," not "green eyes." It's at http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/1099-bostonglobe-loer.html Q: Do you know what Harry's parents look like? JKR: Yes. I've even drawn a picture of how they look. Harry has his father and mother's good looks. But *he has his mother's eyes and that's very important in a future book*. (My asterisks to indicate italics.) The grandparents reference turns out to relate to James rather than Lily, a bit odd given the predominance of green-eyed relatives in the mirror scene: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2001/0301-comicrelief-staff.htm Q: Do we find out more about James Potter's family history in the next books? JKR: Yes, you do. I also found several passages which indicate that she intended the mirror of Erised scene quite seriously: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1997/0697-sundaytimes-gibb.html Rowling wrote a chapter in which Harry Potter sees his parents in a magic mirror after their death. "People have said it is quite a dark chapter, and I don't think it would have been there if I hadn't lost my mother while I was writing the book," says Rowling. "I would give almost anything for another five minutes with my mother which, of course, would never be enough." And again: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1998/0798-telegraph-bertodano.html In one chapter Harry looks into a magic mirror which allows the viewer to see what their heart most desires, and finds his dead parents waving at him. "He had a powerful kind of ache inside him, half joy, half terrible sadness," writes Rowling. "I was conscious that when I looked in the mirror, I would see exactly what Harry saw. But it was only when I'd written it that I fully realised where it had all come from." I don't think JKR would have thrown in a red herring involving imaginary relatives in a scene that meant so much to her. To go off-thread a bit, while I was searching for the grandparents passage I found something which pretty much establishes that Lily really is a Muggle-born and Petunia is just a Muggle: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/0200-scholastic-chat.htm Q: Since Harry Potter's parents were sorcerers and Petunia was Harry's mother's sister. Shouldn't Petunia be a witch or wizard? JKR: No. As Hagrid explains in Book I, sometimes a witch or a wizard occurs in an otherwise Muggle family, just as a Squib is a non-magic person who occurs in an otherwise magic family. So Petunia can't be a squib because she isn't born into a "magic family." (How that relates to green eyes and grandparents, I can't say!) Carol, who has spent way too much time researching this post and hopes it's helpful! From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Dec 3 18:51:47 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 18:51:47 -0000 Subject: TBAY: In the control room In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86411 Pippin sits bemusedly in the Control Room watching as Olivier does a charming Aragorn impression, with a French accent no less. She is intrigued by Olivier's thematic objection to the ESE!Lupin theory. Here she'd been expecting something along the lines of 'JKR would never show a member of an embattled minority as ignoble,' an idea she finds less than logical. If persecuting people made them noble, there'd be a lot more nobility in this world. But Olivier has surprised her. This is a new and worthy opponent. Pippin realizes Olivier and his friends are watching her with, well, trepidation. A strange thing, because though ESE!Lupin is being taken a bit more seriously in the wake of OOP, its supporters are still a distinct minority. Are people really afraid of her? Or is it the truth they fear? Surely she has shown them friendship, offering them refuge from ESE!Bill. Pippin much prefers ESE!Charlie, if good Weasleys must go bad. He's got those dragon-smuggling friends, and where did the hooded stranger get that dragon-egg in the first place? And was he really Quirrell? Wouldn't even Hagrid recognize Quirrell, wrapped up or not? What if Lupin was in Book One, passing out dragon eggs to unwary gamekeepers, and even, oh horrors, slaughtering the unicorns? But that's another post. She gazes meditatively into her cup, but the blood red liquid reflects no visage, only the shiny rim. *Are* her eyes like cold, empty tunnels? In her never-ending zeal to defend Severus Snape, has she become like him, dismissive of any theory not her own? What has happened to her since the days when she was but a harmless Hobbit fangirl, and people ignored her posts? She feels herself enlarged, as if she were robed in a huge distorted shadow of herself, a vast and ominous threat halted upon the shores of Theory Bay. Olivier perseveres. Tolkien references cannot daunt him. >>"Well, I believe ESE!Lupin is wrong, deeply wrong, fundamentally wrong. You even admitted it way back in your 39362 post, Pippin" says Olivier. "The fact that it is sad does not mean it is not true" cuts Pippin "what do you think ? JKR is not writing a lullaby." "True, but until now she has shown great thematic consistency, she would not ruin the whole thematic impact of a book just for the pleasure of Lupin saying "bang! you're dead Dumbledore, I was evil right from the start". Now what is the main theme of PoA?" Olivier asks. << "Liberation," says Pippin, agreeing before Olivier can get revved up again. "But there is a counter-theme, is there not? Something not quite so romantic, but just as essential to true freedom. No one has ever roused the masses in the name of self-control. But can anyone be free who is not master of himself?" This is evidently a rhetorical question, for Pippin continues. "And JKR's themes have each their darker side. If murderers and dementors are liberated, then everyone else has to stay behind locked doors. If people ignore the rules that are made for everyone's safety, then the rule-makers will take away the hippogriffs and give us flobberworms. " "Likewise self-control can be turned to evil purpose. It is good to be able to tame our emotions. But what happens if we override our consciences? Marauder!Lupin, as my old friend Gandalf would put it, knew he was acting wrongly and foolishly, and he told himself so, but he did not listen. And as he said himself, he has not changed." "That makes ESE!Lupin a much more useful villain than Voldemort from a moralist's point of view. Unlike the psychopathic Voldemorts, those who are only in denial about the consequences of their actions may perhaps be reached. But it is necessary for the lesson that those dire consequences be illustrated. ESE!Lupin must be shown to have done some truly despicable things...murdering his friend, killing young Cedric, helping Pettigrew escape...who would wish to be such a person?" "But" says Olivier "it will be highly disappointing if the status of werewolves in the wizarding world does not greatly improve by the end of Book Seven, and I do not see how that can happen if Lupin is exposed as having committed such dreadful crimes." "No. But there could be a coverup. Our heroes will know that heroic!Lupin is just a sham, but as long as he's dead, and hasn't left an inconvenient ghost behind him, his reputation can survive, as long as our friends are careful. Which I think they will be, for werewolf!Luna's sake. " "Noooo!" screams Erin. "Lupin can't betray Harry. I can't bear it. How will Harry stand it?" Pippin looks at her, a strange expression playing on her face. Pity, perhaps? "It'll hurt. But perhaps he will not be as bereft as you imagine. He'll no longer be a child when the Books are over.Let us hope by that time he has found a love which means more to him than Lupin's or Sirius's or even his parents' ever could." Pippin > > References : > > > > > ESE!Bill parts 1 and 2: > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/85610 > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/85729 > > > > ESE!Lupin: > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39362 > > A few words from The Return of the King have also slipped into this post From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 19:11:10 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 19:11:10 -0000 Subject: A strange silver instrument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86412 > Berit wrote: > > snip > I won't speculate what this means, but from these clues I'm sure the > > silver instrument told Dumbledore more than we think it did. And I > > think it has something to do with Harry's connection to the > Slytherin > > house and its heir, Voldemort. > > Berit adds: > > In the duelling scene in CoS, Snape deliberately forces Harry to > reveal he is a parselmouth. Why would Snape be so interested in > knowing this? And more importantly; why did he suspect Harry was one? Annemehr: If Snape did suspect Harry might be a parselmouth, it could be because he'd been talking to Dumbledore about the scar connection between Harry and Voldemort. There was some discussion some time ago (without reaching much of a conclusion) about whether Dumbledore knew that Slytherin's monster was a basilisk all along. When they found Mrs. Norris hanging all stiff, he said "She has been Petrified.[...] But how, I cannot say." (CoS ch. 9) He didn't actually say he *didn't know,* did he, although that's how a listener would normally take that statement. If he didn't know, I'm sure he must at least have been fairly certain of it. A basilisk is commanded by a parselmouth. Dumbledore's spies tell him that Voldemort is in Albania; it can't be him. But Harry has received some of his powers through his scar; it seems to be something Dumbledore knew or suspected all along and could easily have discussed with Snape. That's how it could be that Snape wanted to test Harry in that way. Perhaps there was some fear even then that Voldemort could be possessing Harry, though it would have had to have been from a distance. Still, I'm not sure I find it very likely Snape would have wanted to do it so publicly, even if it did make Harry's life miserable for a while. Berit: > Obviosusly Snape's guess was right: CoS p.146 UK > Edition: "Snape too, was looking at Harry in an unexpected way: it > was a shrewd and calculating look..." Veeeery interesting :-) Annemehr: I'm not sure this means Snape suspected Harry ahead of time; he just may have thought a snake would give Harry a scare and make him look helpless in front of an audience. The snake would have been a naturally Slytherinly choice. From this line, one could argue that Snape was doing all his calculating *after* the fact and there was no premeditation. I seemed to have argued this from both sides! Annemehr firmly on the fence From meriaugust at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 19:18:31 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 19:18:31 -0000 Subject: Where Have the Wands Gone???? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86413 Was just perusing a few older posts, and I am pretty sure that this has been discussed before but I can't keep myself from wondering: where do wands go when their wizard owners have been incapacitated? Neville's father's wand belonged to Neville up to the end of OotP, but that's just a natural inheritance. So how did Voldemort get his wand back after that fateful night in Godric's Hollow? How did Wormtail get his wand back after being in hiding as a rat for twelve years? And how did Sirius get his wand back after a prison term in Azkaban? Does Lockhart, now recovering his memory in St. Mungo's, still have access to a wand? What happens to wands when wizards die? Are they destroyed or recycled? Just some questions that keep bothering me. Meri (who now hopes the JKR will dedicate an entire chapter of book 6 to thorny wand problems) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 19:34:00 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 19:34:00 -0000 Subject: Snape as a Spy, but for Whom? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86414 Aesha wrote: JKR never said that Snape was ordered by LV to begin teaching at Hogwarts. As for the cemetary at the end of GOF, I think most people assume he wasn't there. Voldemort says ... and one who's left the fold (I > personally think he's referring to Snape). So while it's not explictly stated that he's [not] there, I think he's not. Carol: You did mean "not explicitly stated that he's *not* there, right, Aesha? In any case, I agree with you that he's the one Voldemort believes "will not return to us [and] must be killed." That statement appears to be based on his decision to remain at Hogwarts rather than heed the summons to be present at the cemetery. (He can't have been there because he was at the Tri-Wizard tournament. He had no time to hurry away to Hogsmeade, apparate to the cemetery, and return in time to see Harry return with Cedric's body.) Voldemort also presumably knows all about Snape's opposition to Quirrell in SS/PS. We know he can see through that turban (Harry's scar burning at the opening feast) and hear conversations. There's no way he can be unaware of Snape's activities against him. It would be extremely dangerous for Snape, even with his skill at occlumency, to go directly to Voldemort with a reason for not appearing at the cemetery. Going to Lucius Malfoy, however, is another matter, apoint I'll return to in a moment. bboy_mn wrote: I don't think this idea [that LV ordered Snape to teach at Hogwarts} comes from anything JKR specifically said or implied. Carol: You're right. It doesn't. There's nothing in canon, including the interviews, to support it. bboy again: But it fits with one of my theories (shared by many, and equally opposed) that Snape is a Double Agent (or maybe it's a Triple Agent, or a Double-Double Agent). Snape has kept close ties to the Death Eaters, most notibly Malfoy, who escaped Azkaban. If they believe he were truly a spy against Voldemort, they surely would not have associcated with the traitor Snape, and would have probably done their best to kill him. Carol: Undeniably true. We know that he's in contact with Malfoy because Malfoy told him that he saw Sirius in dog form at Platform 9 3/4. Somehow Snape has convinced his old friend Malfoy that he's not a traitor. That does not mean that Voldemort shares Malfoy's view of snape, as I'll explain in a moment. Snape's mission at the end of GoF was not necessarily to go directly to Voldemort, which would have put him in extreme danger and was wholly unnecessary given his friendship with Malfoy. It makes much more sense for him to have explained to Malfoy (with the request that he pass the information along to Voldemort) that it was impossible for him to leave the Tri-Wizard tournament and get to the cemetery, that he couldn't apparate from Hogwarts and even if that were possible, he couldn't have done so right under Dumbledore's nose. Snape, whom we know to be a convincing liar, has only to sneer in the right places, express contempt for Dumbledore, and otherwise appear to share Malfoy's views and goals to convince him that he is simply keeping an eye on Harry and Dumbledore for Voldemort. He might even have revealed something to Malfoy that Sirius had escaped Fudge and the Dementors and was lurking near Hogwarts in dog form--a juicy tidbit that would convince Malfoy that Snape was still on his side without betraying the existence of the Order or his own membership in it. bboy: In GoF, Snape is sent on a mission by Dumbledore; most of us speculated that mission was to get back into the good graces of Voldemort. This would have been impossible if Voldemort truly thought Snape was a spy for the good [g]uys. Carol: It would be impossible to go to Voldemort, who wants him dead and is unlikely to listen to explanations ore excuses, but not to Malfoy, who doesn't necessarily know about Snape's continuing opposition to Voldemort or his various attempts to save Harry's life. Voldemort was not in contact with Malfoy and the DEs until he summoned them to the cemetery in GoF and even then the information he shares with them is limited. Notice that he doesn't *name* the coward who must be punished or the "one I believe has left us forever." Even his "slippery friend" Lucius is too ambitious and cunning to be trusted fully with this vital information. Malfoy could have gone to Voldemort with Snape's explanation for his absence from the cemetery and Voldemort could have pretended to believe it, biding his time since revenge against Snape is impossible while he's at Hogwarts. Or he may want Snape to think he's safe and can confide in Malfoy. Malfoy may be playing the same game, only pretending to trust his old friend, but I don't think so. Snape is probably the more intelligent and skilled of the two, given his abilities as a Legilmens and Occlumens, and I think he has the wool pulled over Lucius's eyes. That's the reason he could NOT show up at the MoM and had to send other members to rescue Harry. (It's notable that he tried and failed to get Sirius to remain behind. If Sirius had listened to Snape, he'd still be alive.) bboy: So, Voldemort thinks Snape pretenting to be a spy for Dumbledore while secretly spying for Voldemort. That's the only way that I can see that Voldemort would allow Snape back in his presents without killing him. Carol: As I've said, there's no evidence that Snape has been in Voldemort's presence, only in Lucius Malfoy's. There's a big difference. bboy: Now the question becomes, whose side is he really on. I think his true allegiance is to Dumbledore, but Snape still may have to do some pretty nasty things against the good guys before Voldemort is finally defeated. Carol: I agree that his true allegiance is to Dumbledore, who, unlike Voldemort, trusts him unconditionally and has never threatened to kill him. That in itself, even without the life debt to James carried over to Harry and whatever horrible event prompted him to go to Dumbledore in the first place, is sufficient, I would think, to show where his loyalties lie. Since Snape is most often at Hogwarts and his mission when he's not there is to spy on the Death Eaters (presumably through his connections with Malfoy), I see no reason why he has to do anything "nasty" other than let drop a stray piece of information on occasion, presumably with the permission of Dumbledore. Just how all this will change with Malfoy et al. in Azkaban and Bellatrix at large, I can't guess. But I'm certain he won't be foolhardy enough to go directly to Voldemort. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 19:53:37 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 19:53:37 -0000 Subject: Bang! You're Dead. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86415 Arcum: > A lot of spells could kill if used right. Using Accio on > sharp objects behind someone, Wingardium Leviosa, stunning > someone so they fall into something deadly (Sirius), > knocking someone into something hard enough with > Expelliarmus (Snape in PoA, only harder), etc... Carol: Thanks. That makes it much easier to defend the position that Harry should not resort to the Unforgiveable Curses because they're the tactics of Voldemort and the DEs. I'm glad that he and his friends, like the Aurors before them, can fight back without resorting to evil tactics. Just don't sneak up on people, don't initiate the fight, don't commit wilful murder, don't use the Unforgiveables. Do fight for justice, do defend yourself and your friends, but do it in a way consistent with maintaining your personal integrity and principles. > > Arcum: > > > Umbridge didn't end up Crucioing Harry, but threatened > > > him with it, and started to cast it. > > > > Carol: Which shows that right away that she's evil. > > Unlike Harry, who was in a state of great agitation when > > he tried and failed to Crucio Bella, she was perfectly > > calm in choosing to use an illegal and unethical > > spell--not to mention hypocritical since she was trying > > to ban defensive spells and potions that could be used in > > war. I wonder if her magic (and her malice) would have > > been strong enough to make it work. She seems like a > > feeble excuse for a witch, but there's no question of her > > cruelty (making Harry write his lines in his own blood). > > Anyone think she's secretly a DE or in league with them? > > (Arcum, do you have that page reference?) Arcum: > Page 746 of the US version of OoP for the threat, followed > by crying out "Cruc-" with her wand pointed at Harrys > forehead on page 747. She had "a nasty, eager, excited look > on her face" and pointed at several areas on Harrys body > "trying to decide what would hurt the most" prior to that. > She's even mentioned as panting slightly while doing this. > > So, calm is not the right term to describe her at this > point. This scene gives me all too clear of an idea why she > gives Filth approval for whipping. I don't know about > being a DE, but I think she has the same sadistic mindset. Carol: Thanks. That takes us back to Bella, then. It seems as if sadistic pleasure in inflicting pain or death *is* essential to casting the Unforgiveable Curses effectively. (BTW, I think sadism explains why Bella prefers Crucio to Avada Kedavra.) I like your little Freudian slip of "Filth" for "Filch." I suppose we should all be very glad that he's a squib and owes a debt of gratitude to Dumbledore. Otherwise, he could be very dangerous. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 20:04:33 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 20:04:33 -0000 Subject: Some Discrepancies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86416 -"Susan Miller" wrote: > > > > If those in the mirror are magical, then the mirror seems to be > > claiming that Lily's family is magical. But there is plenty of > > canonical evidence ("Muggle-born Lily") to the contrary. If the > > mirror is simply showing Lily's family, then where is Petunia? I > > think it is showing Harry's idealized idea of what his family > would > > look like. Lily's and James' relatives, minus Petunia who he > hates, > > show up smiling at him. I just don't see how we can apply this as > > hard proof to conclude that these people ever existed. The mirror > > lies. Serena wrote: > All the mirror shows is Harry's greatest desire--to have a real > family. The Evanses would be part of the family, so it's very > likely they would show up with the Potters. However, it might be a > bit more likely that Harry has seen pictures of the the other Evans > side having grown up with Petunia--surely she has photos of people > besides "Duddikins" around--say like her parents. So it's possible > that the Evans are depicted acurately. Carol: I don't think it's necessary for Harry to have seen photos of the Evanses for the mirror to depict them accurately. In fact, it's most unlikely that he knows anything about his mother's side of the family, living or dead. Uncle Vernon keeps a pretty tight lid on that topic, which is why Petunia virtually explodes in the few instances where she's allowed to talk about her "freak" of a sister and the "awful boy" she married. She's not likely to keep photos of her parents, who favored Lily over her, lying around. And the knobbly-kneed older man, presumably a relative on the Potter side, certainly wouldn't have been in those photos. So I agree with you that the mirror is revealing real people that he (and we) will find out about later, but not that it recreated those people from photographs he had seen. It knows more than Harry does about the family he longs for. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 20:19:51 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 20:19:51 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans - evans, Evans, EVANS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86417 "dorapye" wrote: > To respond to your reply, Carol > > Carol wrote: > >> Assuming that Mark is Harry's relative, he wasn't born yet when > > Harry's parents died and his father might even have been an > unmarried > > boy of 18 or so at that time, so he couldn't have offered Harry the > > home he needed. More important, Mark's father can only be at most > his > > mother's cousin; Dumbledore needed a closer relationship and > Petunia > > was the only available candidate. And since Mark's parents are > pretty > > clearly Muggles, it's very likely that Dumbledore was unaware of > their > > existence. As far as he knew, Petunia really was Harry's only > living > > relative. The WW has a hard enough time keeping track of squibs; it > > would be miraculous if they knew every wizards' muggle second > cousin. Now dorapye: > Yes, I understand Mark'd have to be something like second cousin at > the very most, but I just wondered if Harry would rationalise this > to explain DD placing him with Petunia, obviously his closest living > relative, or if he would let his resentment for having to live with > the Dursleys drive a bitter wedge between himself and DD. He > certainly feels this very strongly at the beginning of OotP and even > though DD has now explained to him why he must return to them every > summer, I'm sure Harry is still feeling pretty hard done by, stuck > with the Dursleys again this summer (and part of the next). If he > allows himself to imagine that he *could* have been placed with a > loving relative, even though DD has explained to him that he needed > to use a close relative to seal the charm and therefore the blood > ties to Mark's family will not be close enough, will Harry be ready > to accept that explanation? Or will anger and frustration at the > choices that have been made for him (by DD and also by LV) prevent > him examining DD's choice rationally? > > I was just trying to tie Harry's possible response to finding he has > other (magical) family members to the Harry we see emerging in OotP: > a typically moody and angry adolescent, resenting the authority of > adults and being treated 'like a child', though still some way short > of ready to assume adult responsibilities. > > Not saying I think Harry will still be 'raging' at being in Privet > Drive in Book 6 (maybe the loss of Sirius will help him gain a new > perspective on his situation) just that, if Mark Evans is a relative > of Harry's in the next book (likely, I think), it *could* introduce > some interesting tensions in Harry's relationship with DD. > > For the record, Carol, I'm liking your theories, and your arguments > with Kneasy, very much. > > dorapye Thanks, dorapye! Apologies for not snipping sufficiently but I'm trying to hurry through posting and get back to work. I'm hoping that we're through with Harry's sulking and self-indulgence and that his anger (which at the moment is mostly misdirected at Snape) will be displaced by other emotions. The MoM experience has a number of lessons to teach and hopefully he'll examine it thoughtfully and learn them. Mark, I hope, will provide him with a chance to empathize with someone very like himself, who has grown up in his own Muggle neighborhood and has been a victim of Dudley. And if he is a relative, I think that Harry's joy in the discovery will far outweigh any resentment against Dumbledore for supposedly concealing this information. Carol From manawydan at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 3 20:21:15 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 20:21:15 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Information dissemination in the WW References: <1070393850.23967.35788.m11@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <005101c3b9db$0db8d820$eee76151@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 86418 Nora wrote: > But let me make that more specific: Is there, and how is there if > there is, political/social debate/commentary/discussion in the WW? > Kneasy refers to DD, and any other faction, presumably (because it's > not mentioned) not taking a public stance against the use of > Unforgivables as authorized by Crouch. As far as we know, the media is (are?) a lot smaller in scale than in our world. It's quite possible that there are more publications (doesn't Hermione say something about village newsletters in OoP?) but from her rather scathing attitude, they don't seem to be on a very high level. Possibly this follows from the fact that there's no distinction between the administration and the bureaucracy in the WW. If you're interested in a political career, you join the Ministry. If you're interested in an administrative career, you join the Ministry. So that there's a strong correlation between the political class and the civil service. That in turn would mean that most political discussion would take place within the Ministry walls but, by the time it came out to the general public, it had been toned down and fudged (no pun intended!) into the appearance of agreement and unanimity. Another conclusion that follows from this is that drastic political change is impossible within the system. There is no "government" and "opposition", there's just the Ministry. So if you _want_ drastic political change, the only option is the Voldemort option, that of conspiracy and plotting. Maybe part of the reason that there may have been a tradition of Dark side conspiracies is just that, that there is no legitimate way of expressing political dissidence. Not that I'm in any way identifying Voldemort with Michael Howard or saying that all young Tom Riddle needed was the possibility of becoming a Young Conservative! Information seems to be carefully (and quite subtly) managed. I've suggested in the past that information is passed to the Muggle government by an unobtrusive MoM agent in a central Muggle department such as the Cabinet Office. Similarly, although on the surface the "Prophet" seems to criticise the Ministry a lot, it limits itself to criticising individuals or policies. It's not critical of the system itself (but then why should it be? The only people who criticise the system are conspirators, Death Eaters, and the like). This in turn means that if the Ministry was (for example) to conduct a whispering campaign against Harry, it's relatively easy to get the "Prophet" to play ball. After all, the Prophet is reliant on official sources in the Ministry for its major news stories. Equally, the Wireless gives the impression of being a bit like the old-style Reithian BBC, at arms length from, but sharing the same values as, the government. The "Quibbler" seems less easy to categorise. It's not quite in the "Daily Sport" or "National Enquirer" mould, because if it was, then _no-one_ would have given credibility to Harry's interview. Possibly it's more like the way "Private Eye" used to be, a publication that's both satirical and investigative, and recognised as such by the WW. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 3 17:51:36 2003 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 17:51:36 -0000 Subject: Some discrepancies Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86419 Sorry, Carol - can't produce any unshakeable canon for my view that Mrs. Black married a cousin. It is mainly a gut feeling about the way she refers always to "my" house, rather than "our". You would expect "Sirius, you swine, you have brought disgrace upon your father's house". On the other hand. given the form her madness seems to take, you may well be right in thinking that she has become so totally obsessed with the purity of the House of Black that she has come to believe it really is hers by right of blood. I am not a siriophile, but I do wonder whence he inherited his basic decency, given that his father was probably just as awful as his mother, just less vocal. Sylvia (who has been really enjoying the trip through English history) From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Dec 3 18:35:56 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 18:35:56 -0000 Subject: The Room of Requirement is the Chamber Pot Room? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86420 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, liz wrote: > Liz: > > Just to be annoyingly nit-picky and to defend the lovely Hermione, she's not > actually wrong. Dobby jinxed the rogue bludger that broke Harry's arm, which > Lockhart then brilliantly de-boned. Dobby is definitely tangentially > responsible for Harry losing his bones. I think Hermione is just being > economical with her words and pointing out the unhappy result of Dobby's > plan, rather than describing the entire process. > > Hermione is never wrong!!!! :) Geoff: Don't agree, I'm afraid. If Lockhart hadn't been such a self-centred and arrogant berk and had listened to those who told him to let Harry go to Madam Pomfrey, the whole incident wouldn't have happened. You might just as well say that if somebody drops a glass of water and spills it that it is also the fault of the person who filled the glass..... Knowing HG's pro-elf tendencies, I'm surprised she even suggested he was to blame. Geoff From catardi at ilstu.edu Wed Dec 3 19:07:10 2003 From: catardi at ilstu.edu (cheneytardio) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 19:07:10 -0000 Subject: New Clues & "Baby Talk" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86421 I don't think the connection between Harry and Bellatrix is that strong, as Fred & George utilize baby talk while making fun of Ron for getting the Prefect position. Granted, they are mimicking Mrs. Weasley, but is it fair to make connections between characters who use the same type of such general words? Bellatrix's use of baby talk is notable, however- what does it imply? That she's immature enough to talk like a school-aged boy? From belijako at online.no Wed Dec 3 20:34:30 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 20:34:30 -0000 Subject: A strange silver instrument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86422 Annemehr wrote: > > If Snape did suspect Harry might be a parselmouth, it could be because > he'd been talking to Dumbledore about the scar connection between > Harry and Voldemort. snip But Harry has received > some of his powers through his scar; it seems to be something > Dumbledore knew or suspected all along and could easily have discussed > with Snape. > > That's how it could be that Snape wanted to test Harry in that way. > Perhaps there was some fear even then that Voldemort could be > possessing Harry, though it would have had to have been from a > distance. > > Berit: > > > Obviosusly Snape's guess was right: CoS p.146 UK > > Edition: "Snape too, was looking at Harry in an unexpected way: it > > was a shrewd and calculating look..." Veeeery interesting :-) > > Annemehr: > > I'm not sure this means Snape suspected Harry ahead of time; he just > may have thought a snake would give Harry a scare and make him look > helpless in front of an audience. The snake would have been a > naturally Slytherinly choice. From this line, one could argue that > Snape was doing all his calculating *after* the fact and there was no > premeditation. > > I seemed to have argued this from both sides! > Berit replies: It's possible Dumbledore and Snape have had a conversation discussing what sort of connection has been created between Voldie and Harry, especially since we know Dumbledore already knows Voldie has marked Harry as an "equal" according to the prophecy. But why would Snape suspect this would include the ability to speak to snakes? I think Rowling has successfully led us off track in "disguising" how extremely important parseltongue is as a clue. She used the main part of the CoS book to go on in detail about snakes and purebloods and Slytherin heirs. It was not just that "everyone" suspected Harry was the Heir of Slytherin; Harry himself battled over and over in his mind whether he should have been sorted into the Slytherin house... And then Rowling finishes the book off by stating that Harry is indeed a true Gryffindor, summoning Fawkes and Godric's sword like he did. A good cover-up :-) She had us all fooled; we conveniently "forgot" the clues that all point to Harry having an extremely strong connection to the Slytherin house and its heir, Voldemort. Look at this quote that "says it all"! (Harry don't see why it's such a big deal he can talk to snakes. This is Hermione's answer): Quote: "'It matters', said Hermione, speaking at last in a hushed voice. 'because being able to talk to snakes was what Salazar Slytherin was famous for. That's why the symbol of Slytherin house is a serpent'". (CoS p. 147 UK Edition). Compare this with Dumbledore's words: Quote: "'You can speak parseltongue, Harry,' said Dumbledore calmly, 'because Lord Voldemort - who is the last remaining ancestor [descendant] of Salazar Slytherin - can speak Parseltongue.'" (CoS p. 245 UK Edition). Note how Dumbledore INSERTS that little "unnecessary" detail of Voldie being the Heir of Slytherin to explain why Harry can speak to snakes... He is not just saying Harry can speak parseltongue because Voldemort accidentally transferred parselmouth to Harry which just happened to be one of Voldie's powers. Voldie being able to speak parseltongue is not just a lucky coincidence. He can speak parseltongue BECAUSE he is a direct descendant of Salazar; in fact: He's the Heir of Slytherin. Harry inheriting this rare gift is extremely significant. The gift is invariably tied to Voldemort's Slytherin heritage. Harry might be more "equal" to Voldie than he likes to think... Harry speaking parseltongue connects him, through Voldemort, directly to Salazar. I still believe Snape knew what he was doing when he set a snake on Harry :-) I think he "knows"... After all; Hogwarts was buzzing with rumours as to who the Heir of Slytherin was and what the monster in the secret chamber was; Snape's a smart guy :-). Berit From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 20:38:06 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 20:38:06 -0000 Subject: Green eyes, grandparents, and the Mirror of Erised (Was:Some Discrepancies) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86423 Carol wrote: I found the reference to eyes using "mother's eyes," not "green eyes." It's at http://www.the-leaky- cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/1099bostonglobe-loer.html > Q: Do you know what Harry's parents look like? > JKR: Yes. I've even drawn a picture of how they look. Harry has his > father and mother's good looks. But *he has his mother's eyes and > that's very important in a future book*. (My asterisks to indicate > italics.) > > > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2001/0301- comicrelief-staff.htm > > Q: Do we find out more about James Potter's family history in the next > books? > JKR: Yes, you do. > Constance Vigilance (me): Very cool, Carol. Great research! The original poster was using the evidence of green-eyed people in the mirror to establish proof that there are wizards in Lily's family and then attempt to make the leap that Petunia is a squib. My response was intended to indicate that it proves nothing of the sort, for one of at least two reasons. 1 - The mirror is a real image of Lily's family, in addition to James', and says nothing about magical ability, or 2 - the mirror is simply presenting a fanciful image to satisfy Harry's deepest desire. In doing so, I seem to have touched some feelings. I am not saying that the people in the mirror _couldn't_ be real family members, perhaps dead and gone. There is no doubt that the images of Lily and James are real. I presume that the mirror has access to external information that it could use to be able to draw accurate images of people that Harry has never known. Note that not even JKR tells us, in those excellent quotes that you uncovered, that the mirror is showing Harry anyone other than his parents. The mirror is under no obligation to tell the truth. It could easily create, out of pure fancy, images that would please Harry. It does this for poor Quirrel. I'm just saying that we cannot make any assumptions about Harry's family based on what the mirror chooses to present. Note that we can also not assume, based on the evidence of the mirror, that Ron is to be Head Boy. However, the softie in me hopes both that Harry does have lots of family who love or loved him, and that Ron has a good shot at being Head Boy. I have been enjoying this discussion, by the way. :) Constance Vigilance From jjpandy at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 20:46:26 2003 From: jjpandy at yahoo.com (jjpandy) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 20:46:26 -0000 Subject: New Clues & "Baby Talk" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86424 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cheneytardio" wrote: > I don't think the connection between Harry and Bellatrix is that > strong, as Fred & George utilize baby talk while making fun of Ron > for getting the Prefect position. Granted, they are mimicking Mrs. > Weasley, but is it fair to make connections between characters who > use the same type of such general words? > Bellatrix's use of baby talk is notable, however- what does it > imply? That she's immature enough to talk like a school-aged boy? JJPandy's reply: Bellatrix finds it laughable that a young boy like Harry thinks he can fight Death Eaters and Voldemorte. The use of baby talk is her way of bullying him or else she still has a few screws loose from her years in Azkaban! JJPandy From kcawte at ntlworld.com Thu Dec 4 05:03:33 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 21:03:33 -0800 Subject: Hermione blaming Dobby References: Message-ID: <003701c3ba24$057839a0$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 86425 > Geoff: > > If Lockhart hadn't been such a self-centred and arrogant berk and had > listened to those who told him to let Harry go to Madam Pomfrey, the > whole incident wouldn't have happened. > > You might just as well say that if somebody drops a glass of water > and spills it that it is also the fault of the person who filled the > glass..... > > Knowing HG's pro-elf tendencies, I'm surprised she even suggested he > was to blame. > K Your analogy is a bit off there - after all it's Dobby's fault he was injured. using the dropped glass analogy it's like being careless while picking up the glass and cutting yourself and then blaming the person who dropped it - while the injury isn't *directly* the responsibility of the person who dropped the glass they certainly contributed to it. If Dobby hadn't caused Harry to break his arm, Lockhart couldn't have screwed up fixing it. While Dobby didn't directly cause his boneless state he was responsible for the situation in the first place. While I doubt Harry (or even Hermione for that matter) actually blames Dobby for him losing his bones it is true to say that Dobby's plan resulted in Harry losing the bones. It wasn't a foreseeable consequence but it was easy to forsee that something bad could happen to Harry because of it. And the general sentiment behind Hermione's comment, ie Dobby's plans tend to get Harry into trouble of some kind, was certainly accurate K "The Loudest Noise Comes From The Electric Minerva." From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 21:02:32 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 21:02:32 -0000 Subject: Some Discrepancies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86426 > Serena wrote: > > All the mirror shows is Harry's greatest desire--to have a real > > family. The Evanses would be part of the family, so it's very > > likely they would show up with the Potters. However, it might be > a > > bit more likely that Harry has seen pictures of the the other > Evans > > side having grown up with Petunia--surely she has photos of people > > besides "Duddikins" around--say like her parents. So it's > possible > > that the Evans are depicted acurately. > > Diana replies: > I always got the impression that the mirror showed only the loving > extended family Harry desparately wished he still had. He already > had Petunia 24/7 up until he left for Hogwarts, so his heart's > desire wouldn't be for family he already has, would it? > Dumbledore has said: > By these statements, we know that Harry has no other living blood > relatives on his mother's side. Unless Dumbledore was lying to > Harry and concealing distant blood relatives on his mother's side > (which I highly doubt, given Harry's emotional state in AD's office > at the end of OoP), all of the Evans, except for Petunia, Harry and > Dudley, are deceased. Carol: I think we can still allow for the possibility of distant relatives --Mark Evans and his Muggle father, whose existence Dumbledore either didn't know about because Mark wasn't born yet and his future father was a Muggle with no known connection to Harry. Mark and his father, not being Harry's ancestors, wouldn't show up in the mirror, but his grandparents on both sides and some great aunts and uncles probably would. Maybe Mark holds the key for his learning about them. Diana: > Petunia's rant in the Hut on Rock in the first book suggested to me > that Petunia was not close to, nor fond of, her parents because of > Petunia's obvious, intense jealousy of Lily and her parents' > acceptance and pride of Lily's 'abnormality'. So I highly doubt > whether Petunia would have a single photograph of her parents or > extended relatives on display in her home. Carol: I agree with you here. And even if we didn't know about Petunia's resentment of her sister, Uncle Vernon would never allow them. He even makes Harry call his sister "Aunt Marge." He suppresses all discussion of Petunia's family, of whom he is deeply ashamed, and certainly wouldn't allow their photographs to be displayed. Diana: > At this point in the story, Harry has never seen his parents and has > no (conscious) idea of what they looked like. He sees his parents > in the mirror and then at the end of the first book he sees his > parents in actual wizard photographs in the photo album Hagrid gives > him. Nowhere does it state, or even suggest, that Harry's vision of > his parents differs even slightly from the vision of his parents in > the Mirror of Erised. Carol: Exactly. His vision of his parents' faces is *not* based on the photographs in the album he receives at the end of SS/PS. The Mirror of Erised is his first encounter with them, but he knows his parents immediately, partly through instinct, partly through their reaction to him, and partly through their resemblance to him. James is unmistakeable, and he's been told over and over again that he has his mother's eyes. It's her fact that he's drawn to, her that he wants to touch. He doesn't give much thought to the other figures except to note the eyes and other details that mark them as his relatives. If the parents he can't remember appear in the mirror exactly as they do in the photographs he sees later, there's no reason to believe that the other people in the mirror are not also exactly as they were just before they died--and became permanently inaccessible to Harry. Diana: If > his parents' appearances were correct and not based on the deeply > repressed memories of a one-year-old, then it would indicate that > the other Evanses and Potters in the mirror were also accurate > representations of his extended family. Besides, I can't see Lily > and James getting married and not a single relative on Lily's side > coming to the wedding. There's just got to be additional Evanses > and Potters in those photos in Harry's photo album. Carol: Probably. But I think we agree that those photos can't be the basis of the reflections in the mirror because he hadn't seen them yet, nor does it make them mere phantoms of his desire. I have a feeling that Sirius's death will prompt him to reexplore the photo album and maybe he'll make the connection himself. Oh, yes! These are the people I saw in the Mirror of Erised. He may ask someone to explain who they are, but if they're Muggles, even Dumbledore may not know the answer. (Which brings us again to Mark Evans as a possible key. . . .) > > While the mirror does 'lie', the truth of what the person > desparately desires is absolute. For example, if Ron's vision had > shown him accepting the Quidditch cup in a blue and purple uniform > while wearing robes with Snarfblatt badges, Ron would have known the > mirror was a lie and wouldn't have gotten excited about what he > saw. He would have thought it a stupid joke. I get the impression that for the > Mirror of Erised to work, the visions must be accurate in detail, > even if the events/actions shown are never going to come to pass. > > So, whether the mirror reads the viewers subconscious mind and > memories or magically knows all the important details(!), I would > say that the appearances of Harry's relatives were all spot on. Carol: I think its a combination of a Legilmency spell that enables the Mirror, like the Sorting Hat, to read subconscious desires and some other sort of ability to as you say, "magically know all the important details." And I agree that we'll find the descriptions to be "spot on." Carol, who also agrees with Diana's SNUFF theory but, like Snape with Hermione's homework, will remain silent because she can't find anything to criticize (um, disagree with) :-) From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Wed Dec 3 21:08:03 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 10:08:03 +1300 Subject: Prefects question. Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031204100452.00a3bac0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 86427 This has been bugging me for some time. In the books it says that Remus was the prefect in that group, not James. However, in other instances, they say that Lily and James were head boy and girl. Now what I cannot figure out is this. I assumed that the head boy and girl were chosen from the pool of prefects from all the houses. Now, this might work if Remus wasn't in the same house as James, but again, there is no mention I can find that James was ever a prefect. Thoughts anyone? Tanya From jjpandy at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 21:18:20 2003 From: jjpandy at yahoo.com (jjpandy) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 21:18:20 -0000 Subject: Salazar Slytherin's descendants (Was Re: A strange silver instrument) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86428 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" wrote: > Quote: "'You can speak parseltongue, Harry,' said Dumbledore > calmly, 'because Lord Voldemort - who is the last remaining ancestor > [descendant] of Salazar Slytherin - can speak Parseltongue.'" (CoS p. 245 UK Edition). > > Note how Dumbledore INSERTS that little "unnecessary" detail of > Voldie being the Heir of Slytherin to explain why Harry can speak to > snakes... He is not just saying Harry can speak parseltongue because > Voldemort accidentally transferred parselmouth to Harry which just > happened to be one of Voldie's powers. Voldie being able to speak > parseltongue is not just a lucky coincidence. He can speak > parseltongue BECAUSE he is a direct descendant of Salazar; in fact: > He's the Heir of Slytherin. JJPandy's reply: OK, Tom Riddle is a descendant of Salazar Slytherin. This is through his mother's side of the family, right?, since Tom Riddle becomes Voldemorte who wants nothing to do with his muggle father. But if Tom Riddle's mother was a descendant of Salazar Slytherin who was very much into keeping the wizard blood pure, then why did she go off and marry a muggle? Is this why Tom Riddle turns into such an angry person? Is it because his mother went against the family tradition which in turn led to his shameful birth as a half-blood? Also, in the graveyard scene of GoF, why does Voldemorte use the "bone of his father" instead of his mother, since she is the one with the wizard blood? JJPandy From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 21:25:17 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 21:25:17 -0000 Subject: Snape as a Spy, but for Whom? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86429 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Carol in response to Aesha: > > Voldemort also presumably knows all about Snape's opposition to > Quirrell in SS/PS. ... > bboy_mn: One minor point regarding Snape's interaction with Quirrell while Voldemort possessed Quirrell; Voldemort did not reveal himself to Snape, therefore Snape had no way of knowing he was working against Voldemort. So, while Voldemort can be unhappy about it, he certainly can't blame Snape, or consider Snape's actions as being directed against Voldemort. > > bboy_mn wrote: > I don't think this idea [that LV ordered Snape to teach at Hogwarts} > comes from anything JKR specifically said or implied. > > Carol: > You're right. It doesn't. There's nothing in canon, including the > interviews, to support it. > bboy_mn: Minor nitpicking point in your paraphrasing of my original statement, it's not a question of Voldemort sending Snape to teach at Hogwarts, which he did not, it's a question of Snape joining or appearing to join Dumbledore's side in the fight. Snape teaching at Hogwarts was secondary, this was an appointment made by Dumbledore after Voldemort was defeated. Sort of a reward for Snape's efforts on behalf of the Order. In order for Snape to be a spy for Voldemort while pretending to help the Order, Snape would have had to continue to work closely with Voldemort and the DE's. If he broke off all ties with Voldemort, he would have little new information to bring to the Order. That's the only way he could be an effective spy for Dumbledore, but at the same time, to be an effective spy for Voldemort, he would have to spend some time with Dumbledore and the Order. Although, I think in the early stages, he spent little or no time with the rest of the members of the Order; too easy to blow his cover if he did that. > bboy again: > > Snape has kept close ties to the Death Eaters, most notibly Malfoy, > who escaped Azkaban. > > Carol: > .... We know that he's in contact with Malfoy .... Somehow Snape has > convinced his old friend Malfoy that he's not a traitor. ... > > Snape's mission at the end of GoF was not necessarily to go directly > to Voldemort, which would have put him in extreme danger and was > wholly unnecessary given his friendship with Malfoy. It makes much > more sense for him to have explained to Malfoy that it was > impossible for him to leave the Tri-Wizard tournament .... bboy_mn: You may be suurprised to find that I agree with you. I said Snape's job was to get into Voldemort's /good graces/. To do that effectively, he would have certainly contacted Malfoy first, and sent Malfoy as his envoy to Voldemort with assurances that Snape was just playing his role as the good double agent. > Carol: > > Voldemort was not in contact with Malfoy and the DEs until he > summoned them to the cemetery in GoF ... bboy_mn: That is a fair but not necessarily sure assumption. Voldemort seemed to forgive Malfoy much easier than he (figuratively) forgave the rest. That always made me wonder if perhaps Voldemort and/or Peter had been in contact with Malfoy prior to the graveyard scene. If they were in contact, it was very limited contact. I believe it was Malfoy who asked Voldemort to explain how he was able to miraculously get his body back. That could lead some to concluded there was no prior contact, although for me, it just implies very limited contact. > Carol: > > Malfoy could have gone to Voldemort with Snape's explanation for his > absence from the cemetery and Voldemort could have pretended to > believe it, biding his time since revenge against Snape is > impossible while he's at Hogwarts. bboy_mn: Oh I am quite sure that while Voldemort may have appeared to have taken Snape back, he trusts no one. Voldemort is allowing for the possibility that Snape really is aiding Dumbledore, and is just playing Snape along until such time as he has outlived his usefulness. I also think that is Voldemort's attitude toward all the Death Eaters. He values the lives of his friends not more than he values the lives of his enemies, and he will not hesitate to 'terminate' any DE who has outlived his usefulness. Also, I don't think Snape is protected by his residence at Hogwarts, I think he is protected by Voldemort preception of some short term usefulness for Snape. > > bboy: > > > So, Voldemort thinks Snape pretenting to be a spy for Dumbledore > while secretly spying for Voldemort. That's the only way that I can > see that Voldemort would allow Snape back in his presents without > killing him. > > Carol: > As I've said, there's no evidence that Snape has been in Voldemort's > presence, only in Lucius Malfoy's. There's a big difference. bboy_mn: I agree that initially it would have been unwise for Snape to come directly into Voldemort's presents. All reasonable logic says that he would have sent Malfoy first to pave the way. However, in the Occulmency lessons, Snape views Harry's memory of Voldemort torturing Avery (I think); this is when Voldemort finds out from Rookwood that the info Avery gave him about retrieving the prophecy was inaccurate. In any event, Snape recognises the room. That would imply that Snape has direct knowledge of where Voldemort is staying. I believe this is also the lesson where Snape says that it is indeed his job and not Harry's to spy on Voldemort (seriously paraphrased). That is not evidence that Snape has been in Voldemort's presents but it is a very strong indicator of that possibility. Certainly, once Malfoy talk to Voldemort about Snape, Voldemort would have wanted to meet Snape face-to-face, so he could look him in the eye and determine for himself if Snape was lying. > Carol: > > Since Snape is most often at Hogwarts and his mission when he's not > there is to spy on the Death Eaters ..., I see no reason why he has > to do anything "nasty" other than let drop a stray piece of > information on occasion, presumably with the permission of > Dumbledore. > > Just how all this will change with Malfoy et al. in Azkaban and > Bellatrix at large, I can't guess. But I'm certain he won't be > foolhardy enough to go directly to Voldemort. > > Carol bboy_mn: As I said, to some extent a double agent must betray both side while working for both sides. At some point each side is going to expect Snape to reveal useful information, and Snape will have no choice but to come through. However, if he continually provide a lot of minor seemingly useful information that can keep him in sufficienlty good grace to not have to engage in a mahjor betrayal of either side. Or at least, no mahjor betrayal until we get closer to the final showdown. As far as Snape and Voldemort meeting face-to-face, I agree that in the beginning, that wasn't possible, but now that Snape has established himself, I think there are indicators in the book that imply that Snape has been in direct contact with Voldemort. Although, on a routine basis, I think it is wisest for Snape to have as little direct contact with Voldemort as possible. It would seem reasonable that he would relay minor information by owl, or by some other contact with a third party; most likely Malfoy. Now that Malfoy and the many other DE's are locked up, it will be interesting to see how the dynamic changes. Certainly, the DE's in prison complicates things, but I'm unclear what the manifestations of the complications will be. Just a thought. bboy_mn From kcawte at ntlworld.com Thu Dec 4 05:33:51 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 21:33:51 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Salazar Slytherin's descendants (Was Re: A strange silver instrument) References: Message-ID: <006a01c3ba28$34c093c0$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 86430 "Berit Jakobsen" He can speak > > parseltongue BECAUSE he is a direct descendant of Salazar; in fact: > > He's the Heir of Slytherin. > K What makes us think that the Heir has to be a descendent anyway. Why can't it be more a case of someone who embodies the characteristics that that House holds in highest esteem. With purebloods being so keen on who's related to whom, wouldn't everyone have known if Riddle's mother was a descendent of Salazar. What I really want to know is how TR managed to convince anyone that Hagrid was behind the opening of the Chamber. I mean a half-giant Gryffindor? Who in their right mind is going to believe he was the Heir? I know that Harry's parselmouth ability mad people suspicious of him, but I would have thought people would have a hard job swallowing the idea of him as Heir too, especially if it was a direct descendent thing. After all Lily was a muggleborn and presumably James' family history wouldn't be terribly difficult to trace. Before someone points out how difficult it is to go back a thousand years in your family tree it can be done in the muggle world and that's without magically preserved documents (well if I was a wizarding lawyer I'd make sure there was a way of preserving documents). Plus wizarding generations are probably longer than human ones since they live so much younger - consider for example if Dumbledore wanted to trace his family tree he would probably remember his parents and grandparents before having to do any research. He is 150 years old so he was born in 1840ish, assume for the sake of argument that his parents were 50ish when they had him (roughly the muggle equivalent of being in one's thirties), they would have been born 1790s and his grandparents in the 1740s - so we've already got back a quarter of the distance to SS and we've only gone through three generations! (for people who have trouble visualizing these dates that means that Dumbledore would have a good memory of people born nearly 40 years before the US came into being) Please someone correct my figures if I'm wrong, this is all off the top of my head. K From kcawte at ntlworld.com Thu Dec 4 05:37:50 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 21:37:50 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as a Spy, but for Whom? References: Message-ID: <006e01c3ba28$c1ab6800$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 86431 > bboy_mn: > > One minor point regarding Snape's interaction with Quirrell while > Voldemort possessed Quirrell; Voldemort did not reveal himself to > Snape, therefore Snape had no way of knowing he was working against > Voldemort. So, while Voldemort can be unhappy about it, he certainly > can't blame Snape, or consider Snape's actions as being directed > against Voldemort. > K And if Snape's counting on that then he's a)very very sure of his value to Voldemort, b) loyal to Dumbledore to the point of taking extreme risks - and I mean above and beyond the 'normal' risks of spying here, or c)insane. Because I'm not sure I'd want to risk my life on the assumption that the insane psychopath I was pretending to follow was going to act in an incredibly reasonable, forgiving and logical manner. K "The Loudest Noise Comes From The Electric Minerva." From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 22:00:36 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 22:00:36 -0000 Subject: Snape as a Spy, but for Whom? In-Reply-To: <006e01c3ba28$c1ab6800$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86432 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > > > bboy_mn: > > > > One minor point regarding Snape's interaction with Quirrell while > > Voldemort possessed Quirrell; ..., while Voldemort can be unhappy > > about it, he certainly can't blame Snape, or consider Snape's > > actions as being directed against Voldemort. > > > K > > And if Snape's counting on that then he's- > a) very very sure of his value to Voldemort, > b) loyal to Dumbledore to the point of taking extreme risks - and > I mean above and beyond the 'normal' risks of spying here, or > c)insane. > > Because I'm not sure I'd want to risk my life on the assumption that > the insane psychopath I was pretending to follow was going to act in > an incredibly reasonable, forgiving and logical manner. > > K bboy_mn: I have no doubt that Snape paid a high price in PAIN, for messing with Voldemort's efforts to get the Stone. And another high price in pain, just to remind Snape, that failure (or betrayal) are not an option. I think Voldemort is very sure of Snape's value, but perhaps for different reasons than Snape views his own value. Certainly, Voldemort knows Snape, having been a teacher at Hogwarts and working closely with Dumbledore, has a lot of valuable information and insight into Dumbledore. But that doesn't mean he fully trust or has fully taken Snape back into the fold. It just means that for now, he sees Snape as being useful. When his preceived usefulness is gone, then Snape is gone along with it. > K: > > "The Loudest Noise Comes From The Electric Minerva." bboy_mn: Personally, I've always preferred the acoustic Minerva. bboy_mn From free_lunch_club at hotmail.com Wed Dec 3 22:05:31 2003 From: free_lunch_club at hotmail.com (thetruthisoutthere_13) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 22:05:31 -0000 Subject: Salazar Slytherin's descendants (Was Re: A strange silver instrument) In-Reply-To: <006a01c3ba28$34c093c0$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86433 "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > > What makes us think that the Heir has to be a descendent anyway. Why can't > it be more a case of someone who embodies the characteristics that that > House holds in highest esteem. Me (kg): I've argued on this list before that Harry will end up being the chosen heir of Gryffindor, not because he's related to Gryffindor, but because he embodies the traits that Gryffindor preferred. (I also think that Harry will inherit the "heir of Gryffindor" title from Dumbledore, and will end up taking possession of Fawkes). However, I suspect that Voldemort is both the Descendant and Chosen Heir of Slytherin. We know that bloodlines are important to Slytherin, and so it makes sense his chosen heir would be both related to him and carry on his ideals. Since Gryffindor did not put the same emphasis on bloodlines, it would be contradictory to one of Rowling's main points to make Harry a descendant of Gryffindor. -kg From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 22:14:20 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 22:14:20 -0000 Subject: Bang! You're dead. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86434 Kathryn: Cruciatus I can understand being illegal, regardless of > > circumstances. It is there only to cause pain and while one could use it to > > distract/disable an opponent there are other equally effective spells. > > However Imperius and AK have their uses. > > Kneasy: > Makes you wonder why they're described and circumscribed in the way > they are. Back to the old argument that a gun is not evil of itself, only > the way that it is used. Carol: That's the crucial question for me also, the one I've been trying to answer here. Why are they unforgiveable, and, if so, unjustified under any circumstances if we're going to maintain the distinction between Good and Evil that JKR so often mentions in her interviews. The Cruciatus curse, we all seem to agree, is evil in itself. Torture is never justified, especially torture so excruciating that it can lead to insanity if prolonged. If the Cruciatus curse requires intense hatred and a sadistic pleasure in inflicting pain in order to be effective, then it can never be used by the Good side. Either it wouldn't work or they would be corrupted by it and cease to be good. I suggest that the Imperius curse, regardless of circumstances that would seem to justify its use, is also inherently evil in JKR's view because it puts one person's will in the control of another. It doesn't matter whether the intention of the person casting the spell is good; it's still benevolent dictatorship along the lines of Plato's Republic. If Kneasy will forgive a comparison to LOTR, it's like Gandalf accepting the One Ring. He would start out with the best of intentions but would inevitably be corrupted. To return to JKR, we know that she emphasizes choice. Choice is only possible if the will is free. Even Death Eaters must be given the choice of submitting of their own free will or fighting. If they must be subdued, there are other ways (stunning, Expelliarmus, a net like the one Snape drops on Lupin in PoA). Controlling their bodies is one thing; controlling their minds is another. And the potential for abuse is also too great for the Curse to be allowed, especially given the inability of so many wizards to resist it (Krum Crucioing Cedric, whom he likes despite their rivalry, because of Crouch's Imperius curse). I'm convinced, or almost convinced, that the Imperius Curse is also unforgiveable under JKR's criteria for Good and Evil, which do not allow practical "necessity" to justify what is in other circumstances wrong. Avada Kedavra, I think, is unforgiveable not because it kills but because there's no *known* defense against it (setting aside Harry, Voldemort, and possibly Dumbledore). I think we've established that there are other ways to kill in war and self-defense that would eliminate the necessity for using this particular spell. I think it, like Crucio, requires real hatred and a desire to destroy the person it's used against to succeed. I'm not sure that Lupin alone could have killed Peter using an AK. Sirius probably could have--a rash, desperate man motivated by revenge and capable of violent anger as shown by his slashing of the Fat Lady's portrait. How much worse might he have become if the spell had succeeded and he had escaped? If he did not become evil, he would certainly have gone insane. That particular example, I realize, is complicated by the question of motive, which was undeniably murder. What I need and don't have is an example of Avada Kedavra used as self-defense. Did James try to use it and fail because he didn't feel sufficient hatred? Did Mad Eye Moody use it on Rosier? I know that alternative means of killing have been discussed so it's possible, even probable, that he didn't use it. I'm left with a) murder is Evil regardless of the spell used and b) Avada Kedavra is Evil regardless of "necessity" because there are other, "forgiveable" and legal, spells available that serve the same purpose without depriving the person they're used on (Harry and LV excepted) of any form of defense. Let's say, then, that, Harry faces Lucius Malfoy in battle in Book 7. Lucius is a Death Eater known to have used unforgiveable curses himself. Is Harry justified, according to the criteria that JKR has established, in using any of these curses on him and descending to his level? The answer is no. No matter what Lucius attempts to do to him, Harry can't retaliate in kind. He can't torture him, deprive him of his will, or kill him in a way that leaves him with no defense. He can defend himself against the Imperius curse and maybe, by Book 7, against the Cruciatus curse as well. He can disarm Malfoy and send him to St. Mungo's with one arm shorter than the other and his feet turned backwards. If worse comes to worst, he can kill him in self-defense with some other spell. Carol, who is trying to find a satisfactory explanation for why the curses are unforgiveable and thinks she is almost but not quite there From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 22:31:30 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 22:31:30 -0000 Subject: A strange silver instrument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86435 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" wrote: > > > Adi wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > In Order of Phoenix, the Eye of the Snake chapter, when Harry > > > reveals his 'dream', Dumbledore uses a strange silver instrument. > > > What was that? And there is something about 'in essence divided'. > > > What was the thing whose essence was divided? > > Berit wrote: > > snip > I won't speculate what this means, but from these clues I'm sure the > > silver instrument told Dumbledore more than we think it did. And I > > think it has something to do with Harry's connection to the > Slytherin > > house and its heir, Voldemort. And in what way exactly Voldemort > made > > him his EQUAL, making the prophecy state there can only be one of > > them... They're the same, but in essence divided... We'll know > > eventually :-) > > > Berit replies: > > Just an interesting little detail I forgot in my previous post on > Harry's link and connection to the heir of Slytherin and to the > Slytherin house: > > In the duelling scene in CoS, Snape deliberately forces Harry to > reveal he is a parselmouth. Why would Snape be so interested in > knowing this? And more importantly; why did he suspect Harry was one? > There is no evidence to suggest Snape knew about the incident in the > Muggle Zoo where Harry talked to the Boa constrictor from Brazil... > Harry hadn't even told Hermione and Ron about it. So there must be > another reason Snape puts two and two together and wants to check if > his equation is turns out to be correct: To find out if Harry's a > parselmouth. Obviosusly Snape's guess was right: CoS p.146 UK > Edition: "Snape too, was looking at Harry in an unexpected way: it > was a shrewd and calculating look..." Veeeery interesting :-) > > Berit Maybe he knew that the Heir of Slytherin was a Parselmouth and wanted to test Harry to see if he was that person. He may have already deduced that some of Voldemort's powers had entered into Harry through the failed Avada Kedavra and "put two and two together as only Snape can." More likely he was only trying to scare Harry with the snake (having every intention of causing it to vanish after the initial shock) and it was only after he heard Harry speaking Parseltongue that he "put two and two togehter." That would explain the "shrewd and calculating look" (as opposed to a look of triumph) at that point. I think Snape was as surprised as anyone by this discovery, but being Snape, concealed his astonishment and drew some conclusions. Either way, I can't see any truly evil motive beyond his usual desire to make his students uncomfortable. I seriously doubt that he really suspected Harry of petrifying his fellow students, but he may have wanted it to be true out of sheer spite. But if you're trying to somehow link Snape's ostensible desire to reveal Harry as a Parselmouth to Snape's somehow being an agent of Voldemort, I just don't see it. Carol From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 22:33:15 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 22:33:15 -0000 Subject: Prefects question. In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20031204100452.00a3bac0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86436 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tanya Swaine wrote: > ... In the books it says that Remus was the prefect..., not James. > However, ... Lily and James were head boy and girl. ... I > assumed that the head boy and girl were chosen from ... prefects.... > ..., there is no mention ... that James was ever a prefect. > > Thoughts anyone? > > Tanya bboy_mn: This issue was addressed recently and I'm use you can search out the more detailed discussion of it. My theory is that Best Boy is not the captain of the prefects. Although, some schools do work that way. Best Person and Prefectship are two separate honors. Prefects are sort of like school assistance. They assist in maintaining order, metering discipline, and helping out in emergencies. Best Person is just that, the best person in the school. I look at Best Person more along the line of valedictorian (summa cum laude, magna cum laude); not exactly the same, but similar. Logically, you would want academically good students as well as students with good discipline as Prefects. They need to be able to keep up with their studies while performing their additional duties. They also need to be trustworthy, reliable, and mature. These are also characteristics that you would look for in a Best Person, so logically many Best Persons would come from the ranks of Prefects. However, that is not mandatory. Since Best Person is a separate honor, a student with outstanding academics, generally good character, and marked improvement could be chosen even though their disciplinary record was less than spotless. In some schools, Head Boy is really Head Prefect, but that doesn't appear to be the case at Hogwarts. All indications are that Best Person is an honor separate from Prefect. It seems reasonable that Hermione will be Head Girl, but I'm not sure who will be Head Boy in Harry's year. Remember that Prefects represent their house, whereas Best Person represents the whole school. There is only one Best Boy and Best Girl in the entire school. Give that, I'm not sure if Harry will make it to Best Boy. There is a good chance, but there are also a lot of students in the other houses that we don't know much about. Certainly Harry is a great wizard, but his academics are only so-so. At this point, I'm not sure I have enough information to predict whether Harry will make Head Boy. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From mpjdekker at hotmail.com Wed Dec 3 22:41:35 2003 From: mpjdekker at hotmail.com (mightymaus75) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 22:41:35 -0000 Subject: A strange silver instrument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86437 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" wrote: > > I believe what we are supposed to think, is that Dumbledore just > wanted to know if Voldemort was possessing Harry inside the snake's > body; if he controlled Harry in any way. That the snake that rose > out of the smoke in the silver instrument represented Nagini, > dividing into two snakes to signify that Voldie and Harry were "in > essence divided" inside her, not "one" in the scene were Arthur was > injured. Meaning Harry was not to blame for the attempted murder of > Arthur. > > But I think there is canon evidence to support that Dumbledore > wanted to know something more substantial than that. Here are the > arguments: > > > > I won't speculate what this means, but from these clues I'm sure > the silver instrument told Dumbledore more than we think it did. > And I think it has something to do with Harry's connection to the > Slytherin house and its heir, Voldemort. And in what way exactly > Voldemort made him his EQUAL, making the prophecy state there can > only be one of them... They're the same, but in essence divided... > We'll know eventually :-) > > Berit A possible answer might be that the smoke serpent, the silver of the instrument, and the green of the smoke aren't referring to Salazar Slytherin or the house of Slytherin, but to his last descendant: Lord Voldemort. Voldemort is repeatedly described as a snake rearing up inside Harry. He even looks like a snake with his white skin, his flat nose, and his slitted pupils. The divided essence Dumbledore is talking about would then be the essence of Voldemort. Voldemort unintentionally transferred some of his powers to Harry the night he gave Harry his scar. It's my pet theory* that Voldemort transferred more than just his powers that night, that he in fact transferred a part of his mind. The two smoke snakes then represent the separate parts of Voldemort's mind, which share a bond but at the same time have been living completely separate lives for the past 15 years. One part trapped inside Harry watching him grow up, the other forced to go into exile waiting for his followers to finally come looking for him. *) KITTENS & RAINBOWS, a theory which argues along much the same lines as you have. See messages: #78982, #79691, #83445 > Just an interesting little detail I forgot in my previous post on > Harry's link and connection to the heir of Slytherin and to the > Slytherin house: > > In the duelling scene in CoS, Snape deliberately forces Harry to > reveal he is a parselmouth. Why would Snape be so interested in > knowing this? And more importantly; why did he suspect Harry was > one? There is no evidence to suggest Snape knew about the incident > in the Muggle Zoo where Harry talked to the Boa constrictor from > Brazil... Harry hadn't even told Hermione and Ron about it. So > there must be another reason Snape puts two and two together and > wants to check if his equation is turns out to be correct: To find > out if Harry's a parselmouth. Obviosusly Snape's guess was right: > CoS p.146 UK Edition: "Snape too, was looking at Harry in an > unexpected way: it was a shrewd and calculating look..." Veeeery > interesting :-) > > Berit Actually I think Snape suspected Harry was a Parselmouth because he used Occlumency on Harry his very first night at Hogwarts: "Harry, who was starting to feel warm and sleepy, looked up at the High Table again. Hagrid was drinking deeply from his goblet. Professor McGonagall was talking to Professor Dumbledore. Professor Quirrell, in his absurd turban, was talking to a teacher with greasy black hair, a hooked nose, and sallow skin. It happened very suddenly. The hook-nosed teacher looked past Quirrell's turban straight into Harry's eyes -- and a sharp, hot pain shot across the scar on Harry's forehead. `Ouch!' Harry clapped a hand to his head. `What is it?' asked Percy. `N-nothing.' The pain had gone as quickly as it had come. Harder to shake off was the feeling Harry had gotten from the teacher's look -- a feeling that he didn't like Harry at all." [PS/SS] Of course, we are meant to think that Harry felt his scar hurt because he looked directly at Quirrell's turban. But interestingly Harry doesn't feel his scar hurt again until almost nine months later when he meets Quirrellmort in the Forbidden Forrest. All this time Harry is in close proximity to Professor Quirrell, takes his DADA class, even passes him a few times in the hallways, but not even the slightest hint of pain from Harry's scar. It's perhaps more likely then that it was Snape using Occlumency on Harry that caused his scar to hurt. We know that direct eye-contact is needed for Occlumency, and Harry was specifically disturbed by the feeling he got from looking directly in Snape's eyes. The fact that Snape using Occlumency on Harry caused Harry's scar to hurt seems to indicate that Snape saw the part of Voldemort's mind buried inside Harry's head. I believe that it is because of this that Snape decided to have Draco use a snake on Harry in the Duelling club in CoS. -Maus From irishprincesscjm at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 20:35:47 2003 From: irishprincesscjm at yahoo.com (Carey McGinley) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 12:35:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fourth Prefect in the Weasley family In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031203203548.30170.qmail@web60104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86438 Neith wrote: > at page 152 or 154> (Bloomsbury ed.) > Molly states that Ron is the Fourth prefect in the > Family. > > At that moment, we already know that Percy was a > Prefect, and Bill as > well, so them bpth and Ron make three. Who's the > forth? It was Charlie, I think it's mentioned somewhere before, but there's also a line where Molly says something like "That's everyone in the family," to which the twins reply, "What are we the next door neighbors?" So it's Charlie. ~*Carey*~ From christianrooster at hotmail.com Wed Dec 3 23:03:27 2003 From: christianrooster at hotmail.com (Mark) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 23:03:27 -0000 Subject: Pansy, Narcissa, LUPIN! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86439 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tigerpatronus" wrote: > > A rose is a rose is a . . . lupin. a > garden filled with *lupins!* I didn't know this was a flower. (> And as much as there is a "wolfy" connotation to Remus Lupin's name, > I wonder if there is a connection to the Flower Power Theories. It doesn't strike me so because: 1) Lupin is his "last" name, not the first. 2) It's traditional to name girls after pretty (or in this case pretty dangerous) flowers; not boys. 3) The name of the flower still has it's roots in the same place as "lupine" as in wolflike. Allegedly because the flower was thought to exhaust the soil (ravenous like a wolf). See: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=lupine Mark From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Dec 3 22:34:35 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 22:34:35 -0000 Subject: Fourth Prefect in the Weasley family In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86440 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "neith_seshat" wrote: Neith: > Hi, all > > I'm re-reading OotP, and I've just read yesterday night "The Woes of > Mrs. WWeasley" chapter. There, at page 152 or 154 (Bloomsbury ed.) > Molly states that Ron is the Fourth prefect in the Family. > > At that moment, we already know that Percy was a Prefect, and Bill as > well, so them bpth and Ron make three. Who's the forth? Geoff: You missed the important bit of that chapter... "Ron held up his badge. Mrs.Weasley let out a shriek just like Hermione's. 'I don't believe it! I don't believe it! Oh, Ron, how wonderful! A prefect! That's everyone in the family!' 'What are Fred and I, next-door neighbours?' aid George indignantly....." (OOTP "The Woes of Mrs.Weasley" p.149 UK edition) That obviously confirms that Charlie must have been a prefect as well. Geoff From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Dec 3 22:58:58 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 22:58:58 -0000 Subject: A strange silver instrument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86441 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" wrote: > Berit: > > Just an interesting little detail I forgot in my previous post on > Harry's link and connection to the heir of Slytherin and to the > Slytherin house: > > In the duelling scene in CoS, Snape deliberately forces Harry to > reveal he is a parselmouth. Why would Snape be so interested in > knowing this? And more importantly; why did he suspect Harry was one? Geoff: I hate to quibble, but the above is wrong and a number of following posts have followed it up wrongly. The development of the scene is - Snape did not force Harry to reveal that he was a parselmouth. It was /Malfoy/ who conjured up the snake. Snape says: 'Don't move Potter...... I'll get rid of it.' Before that can happen, Lockhart intervenes in his usually pushy way and manages to project the snake ten feet into the air. Before anything else can happen, the snake has moved towards Justin F- F, Harry has rushed across and: "he shouted stupidly at the snake, 'Leave him!' Quotes from COS p.145 UK edition. Which doesn't fit with your suggested scenario above. On the subject of the silver instrument, this has been discussed before in a thread "The Smoke Serpent" which I opened at mesage 79231 and ran through to 79337. Geoff From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 23:27:18 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 23:27:18 -0000 Subject: Snape as a Spy and Spy!Lucius, too! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86442 > Jen R: There is another logical explanation, one of my pet theories, > and it's that Lucius Malfoy is a Spy as well. Now, I'm not saying > Lucius is a good *person* or that he believes in the Order's cause, > or even that he is not exactly as he's portrayed--a prejudiced, > bigoted, power-hungry man. But Lucius being a pseudo double-agent > would go a long way to explaining a few things. > > For one thing, how has Snape convinced Voldemort he is still on the > side of the DE's? With Lucius's help of course. We have no evidence > that Snape is friendly with any of the other DE's besides Karkaroff, > who is no longer 'loyal'. We're pretty sure Snape wasn't at the > graveyard. His link to Voldemort is through Lucius, LV's "slippery > friend". > > LV is a shrewd dictator. He is not immune to the fact that Malfoy > has power in the mainstream WW, has money, has pureblood status--all > the things LV never had. Malfoy, while he may once have been young > and idealistic and believed in LV's cause, is now older, wiser and > more powerful---and he's not going to let some two-bit Evil Overlord > who's not even pureblood (spits on floor) take anything away from > him. > > My theory is that Lucius turned spy after the COS incident. Yes, he > planted the diary, he was all for scaring the 'Mudbloods', perhaps > bringing some family shame on the Weasleys by using Ginny, and > closing down Hogwarts, but my guess is he had *no clue* that LV > could actually return to life through that diary. That fact spooked > him enough that he decided to work with Snape at least, if not the > Order in its entirety. > > Who else planted the seed of "obtaining the Prophecy" in LV's ear, > luring Harry Potter to the MOM, and having LV outed to the WW? Who > was the one telling all the DE's "not to kill Harry" in the DOM even > though the other children were expendable in his eyes? He knows > Harry is the One, and much as he and Snape despise "Potter", they > want him to do their dirty business and remove LV for good. Then > they, or Lucius at least, can get on with the business of running > the WW in whatever way he can--bribery, under the table deals, etc. > > No, Lucius isn't going to take orders from anyone this time around, > especially a 'half-blood'. Carol: Interesting! I agree that (until Lucius is sent to Azkaban at the end of OoP) Snape is working solely with Lucius, that Lucius is "slippery" (even Voldemort doesn't fully trust him), and that Lucius has ambitions of his own to succeed Voldemort. Whether or not Lucius suspects Snape of having left the DEs forever before the graveyard scene, he has posed as Snape's friend all along, taking advantage of old Slytherin ties in hopes of gaining information from him. No doubt he looks down a bit on Snape, who is younger, less prestigious, and has to earn his living as a teacher at Hogwarts, but he condescends to remain on friendly terms with him for his own ends. By the same token, Snape would benefit from retaining the tie with Lucius as part of his cover. Before Voldemort's return, Lucius presumably thinks that Snape escaped Azkaban in the same way he did, by pretending to be under the Imperius curse. Once he realizes that Snape is the one who will not return, he probably thinks it advantageous to maintain the connection and pretend that he believes Snape's explanation (he couldn't apparate to the graveyard, etc., as explained in another post). Whether he also suspects Snape of being a member of the Order, I don't know. I don't think he does or he wouldn't continue to commend Snape's performance as a teacher--unless he thinks Snape is a double agent. I also don't think he knows about Snape's efforts to thwart Quirrell or the jig would be up. If he suspects Snape of alerting the OoP and indirectly bringing about his own arreat, then the jig IS up. You're also right that he is the only one who could have informed LV that the way to lure Harry to the MoM was through Sirius, but the source of that information wasn't Snape, it was Kreacher. I don't think Snape was in on Lucius's little scheme to succeed Voldemort, at least not with any real intention of acting on it, but I have no doubt that he used it to his advantage. (However highly Lucius may think of himself, Snape is undoubtedly more cunning and more intelligent, and has the advantage of knowing occlumency and legilmency.) The problem for them both is that their link is broken. Is Snape going to maintain appearances by helping to break them out of Azkaban? I seriously doubt it. He doesn't want the DEs to be free. Will he be forced to work with Draco and Narcissa now? Surely he can't blow his cover and be revealed as, in essence, a traitor to his own house. BTW, I still don't understand how Lucius got hold of the diary, which couldn't have been left in the Riddle house at the time of the murders. The police would have found it and realized that Tom Marvolo Riddle, the name on the binding, was not the name of the Tom Riddle who died. A little investigation would lead them to the older Tom's divorce, an unacknowledged son in an orphanage, and a certain teenage murderer. Maybe Voldemort told Lucius that it was at Hogwarts and Lucius forced Dobby to find it and bring it to him? Carol From belijako at online.no Wed Dec 3 23:35:06 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 23:35:06 -0000 Subject: A strange silver instrument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86443 Carol wrote: > > More likely he was only trying to scare Harry with the snake (having > every intention of causing it to vanish after the initial shock) and > it was only after he heard Harry speaking Parseltongue that he "put > two and two togehter." That would explain the "shrewd and calculating > look" (as opposed to a look of triumph) at that point. I think Snape > was as surprised as anyone by this discovery, but being Snape, > concealed his astonishment and drew some conclusions. > > Either way, I can't see any truly evil motive beyond his usual desire > to make his students uncomfortable. I seriously doubt that he really > suspected Harry of petrifying his fellow students, but he may have > wanted it to be true out of sheer spite. But if you're trying to > somehow link Snape's ostensible desire to reveal Harry as a > Parselmouth to Snape's somehow being an agent of Voldemort, I just > don't see it. Berit replies: No, that's not at all what I am trying to say, Carol :-) I don't think Snape had an evil motive, and I don't think Snape thought Harry was the one "turning the monster loose". But I think Snape wanted to know exactly what Harry had inherited from Voldemort... I think Snape had come up with a theory, and wanted to have it confirmed. Surely, Snape, like Voldemort (and Dumbledore), was wondering what happened that fateful day Voldie tried to kill Harry. Like Voldemort, I am sure Snape noticed the similarities between Harry and Voldemort. So he is dying to know exactly how FAR that similarity goes. And he gets to know HOW far: Harry reveals he is a parseltongue; possibly the only one at Hogwarts besides Voldemort since Salazar himself... That's how exceptionally rare it is. Parseltongue is the very thing Salazar was famous for; the reason the snake is the Slytherin house's symbol. So what am I saying? I (and the prophecy) are saying Harry is Voldemort's EQUAL. "One, but in essence divided". They share a whole lot of things (background, looks, powers, descendance?...), but not intent. They're divided; they're too different individuals with different goals in life. I think there's canon evidence to suggest Harry has somehow "inherited" the position as Heir of Slytherin. It explains why one has to defeat the other. There can't be two of them at the same time. Now you've forced me to be specific in my theorising :-) I don't really want to do that, but since you misunderstood me and thought I meant Harry is going evil or something... Well well. You might be right that Snape's shrewd and calculating look shows Snape didn't know what was going to happen and drew his conclusions afterwards. But his shrewd and calculating looks can also mean he's already speculating how Harry having inherited Voldie's Slytherin title is going to affect the up-coming war... It's just that my gut feeling says it was not just because he wanted to scare Harry that Snape happened to throw a snake at him. I believe he had another, more important agenda. It's the whole "feel" of the scene (and the book)... But that's just me, I can't prove it :-) Berit From belijako at online.no Wed Dec 3 23:42:51 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 23:42:51 -0000 Subject: A strange silver instrument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86444 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" > wrote: > > > Berit: > > > > Just an interesting little detail I forgot in my previous post on > > Harry's link and connection to the heir of Slytherin and to the > > Slytherin house: > > > > In the duelling scene in CoS, Snape deliberately forces Harry to > > reveal he is a parselmouth. Why would Snape be so interested in > > knowing this? And more importantly; why did he suspect Harry was > one? > > > Geoff: > I hate to quibble, but the above is wrong and a number of following > posts have followed it up wrongly. > > The development of the scene is - > > Snape did not force Harry to reveal that he was a parselmouth. It > was /Malfoy/ who conjured up the snake. Snape says: > 'Don't move Potter...... I'll get rid of it.' > > Before that can happen, Lockhart intervenes in his usually pushy way > and manages to project the snake ten feet into the air. > > Before anything else can happen, the snake has moved towards Justin F- > F, Harry has rushed across and: > "he shouted stupidly at the snake, 'Leave him!' > > Quotes from COS p.145 UK edition. > > Which doesn't fit with your suggested scenario above. > > On the subject of the silver instrument, this has been discussed > before in a thread "The Smoke Serpent" which I opened at mesage 79231 > and ran through to 79337. > Berit replies: Sorry to disagree with you Geoff :-) But I don't think I am wrong... The reason I am saying Snape threw the snake at Harry, is that it is implied it was Snape that suggested to Draco he use the snake spell against Harry (Snape whispers in Draco's ear seconds before Draco throws his spell). It was not Draco's idea. Therefore it ultimately is Snape that throws the snake at Harry. I also know that Lockhart intervened in the middle of the fight, complicating things a little. But that doesn't mean Snape's intent was not to confront Harry with a snake to see what would happen... Thanks for the reference to earlier discussions on the topic :-) Berit From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 23:49:55 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 23:49:55 -0000 Subject: Pansy, Narcissa, LUPIN! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86445 tigerpatronus wrote: > > A rose is a rose is a . . . lupin. > > I was reading another book (The Black Prince, Iris Murdoch, Look! > More flower name synchronicity!) and the characters walked through a > garden filled with *lupins!* I didn't know this was a flower. (I > don't garden much. I've been urban for years now.) > > And as much as there is a "wolfy" connotation to Remus Lupin's name, > I wonder if there is a connection to the Flower Power Theories. Some > meanings for the flower "lupin" stolen directly from websites: > Carol: Lupine (usually spelled with an "e") grows wild around my neighborhood in springtime, so I did know it was a wildflower. The name seems to be connected to the adjective "lupine" meaning "wolflike" (both derive from Latin "lupinus," of a wolf) though what's wolflike about a stalky plant with bluish purple flowers, I can't say. tigerpatronus: > I admit that I was "rooting around," looking for evidence to support > the ESE!Lupin theory, and lupin plants are mildly alkaloid and > somewhat poisonous, but I'm not sure that's relevant. It might be > more interesting if there's a wizarding family out there that uses > flower names for children like the Black family uses astronomical > names. This might suggest RL's lineage. Perhaps he's Narcissa's > cousin on the side that uses flower names. Carol: I noted that some varieties are poisonous when I looked it up trying to link it with "lupine, but like you I don't think that's relevant. It's clearly the wolf connection that we're supoosed to see. Also Narcissa (the only Black named after a flower) is a woman and Narcissa is her first name. (The poisonous element may have some relevance in her case, as I mentioned in a previous post, along with the legend of a Greek boy in love with his own reflection--doesn't bode well for Narcissa.) In any case, a number of other female characters in HP, including the Muggle Petunia, are named after flowers, but as I said, it's their first not last name, so I don't think there's any connection between Lupin(e) and Lily or Pansy or Petunia or Narcissa--or even much of a connection among those characters except a long-standing English tradition of giving flower names to girls. Carol From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Thu Dec 4 00:10:29 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 00:10:29 -0000 Subject: Hark, the Grimmauld Boggarts (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86446 Hark, the Grimmauld Boggarts To the tune of Hark the Herald Angels A MIDI may be heard here: http://www.kididdles.com/mouseum/h037.html Dedicated to Pixieberry *A somewhat impressionistic look at 12 Grimmauld Place with the holidays in mind* Hark, the Grimmauld boggarts sing In their impersonating. Weasley dead, a murdered child Molly's grief is deep and wild Arthur faces deadly peril Sirius filks Christmas carols Kreacher, though bound by elf laws Searches for an escape clause. Hark, the Grimmauld boggarts sing In their disguise of frightful things Harry sulks with Buckbeak indoors Prepossessed with Voldemort As he feeds to Bucky dead rats He concludes that he should scat. Phineas, on canvas, mobile, "Oh, I see, you're being noble." Ginny says, "I'm not impressed, You ain't the one who's been possessed." Hark, the Grimmauld boggarts sing In their disguise of frightful things Screaming portrait of Mother Black Who a third dimension lacks. Though she's only paint and oil Half-breeds cause her blood to boil. An enormous Christmas tree Covers up her tapestry Elfish heads with caps of Santa Black and Snape in deadly banter Hark, the Grimmauld boggarts sing In their disguise of frightful things Hark, the Grimmauld boggarts sing In their disguise of frightful things! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 00:20:21 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 00:20:21 -0000 Subject: Bang! You're dead. In-Reply-To: <001901c3ba07$059c1b80$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86447 Kneasy wrote: Sorry to keep harping on about previous postings, but I had a go at this as well (Prophets without honour). Anyone can make a 'prophecy' - but only *after* the event can the accuracy be determined. Even then rationalising of the events may occur. It's probably a red herring concocted by JKR to keep us from digging into more potentially productive seams. > > Kathryn responded: I must admit I didn't read the prophecy threads. I wonder if at the same time as giving the prophecy about Harry Trelawney had added, oh and btw Dumbledore's going to die next Tuesday, he'd have been as keen to accept it as the only possible way things can happen and not tried to fight it. This idea that seems to be showing up in the books that prophecy is immutable and things *will* happen that way smakes of 'fate' and 'predestination' and neither of those concepts fit well with the idea of our choices being important. I wonder though is this why Dumbledore seems to ignore Harry getting into danger - he's going to die at the hand of Voldemort so as long as he's in danger from *other* things, he can't die? Snape obviously doesn't know this because he didn't know Quirrel was carrying around a guest so he could have assumed he didn't need to try and fight the hex on the broomstick because Harry couldn't be killed by Quirrel. Oh I'd like to have seen that - Harry falls off the broom and breaks his neck, Snape runs down to examine the body, looks up at Albus and says "oops?" Kathryn, you really should read the prophecy threads. (I didn't change the name of this thread because I was afraid you'd skip it if I did.) Not all of us think they involve predestination; I think they're sufficiently ambiguous to allow for the element of choice, which as you say is crucial to JKR's worldview. I don't think that there's any guarantee that Harry will survive to fulfill the prophecy, only that if he does die, no one else can defeat Voldemort. Snape, in my view, is just trying to guarantee that harry will be around to do it (and also, of course, trying to rid himself of that pesky life debt to James). Suppose you're right, though, and the only way he can pay that life debt is by saving Harry from the only person/power who can kill him: Voldemort? Puts an interesting twist on things, doesn't it? Poor Snape, though. I'd hate to have him find out that all of his efforts to save Harry are just a waste of time and he'd better just stick to teaching Potions and wait for Book 7. I do want him to keep trying to solve things in his own mysterious way for his own mysterious reasons until the end of the series. Carol, who's pretty sure she wouldn't have read all the books, much less joined this group, if it weren't for Severus Snape From annemehr at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 00:38:06 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 00:38:06 -0000 Subject: A strange silver instrument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86448 > Annemehr wrote previously: > > > > If Snape did suspect Harry might be a parselmouth, it could be > because > > he'd been talking to Dumbledore about the scar connection between > > Harry and Voldemort. > snip > Berit replied: > > It's possible Dumbledore and Snape have had a conversation discussing > what sort of connection has been created between Voldie and Harry, > especially since we know Dumbledore already knows Voldie has marked > Harry as an "equal" according to the prophecy. But why would Snape > suspect this would include the ability to speak to snakes? Annemehr: Ah, but you snipped that part (or didn't you think it persuasive enough?). I thought it possible that DD had discussed with Snape the possibility of a transfer of LV's *powers* to Harry. I also thought DD must have either known or strongly suspected the monster was a Basilisk which would be controlled by a *parselmouth,* and discussed that with Snape also. If these two things happened, Snape would have a reason to wonder. Berit: I think > Rowling has successfully led us off track in "disguising" how > extremely important parseltongue is as a clue. She used the main part > of the CoS book to go on in detail about snakes and purebloods and > Slytherin heirs. It was not just that "everyone" suspected Harry was > the Heir of Slytherin; Harry himself battled over and over in his > mind whether he should have been sorted into the Slytherin house... > And then Rowling finishes the book off by stating that Harry is > indeed a true Gryffindor, summoning Fawkes and Godric's sword like he > did. A good cover-up :-) > > Quote: "'You can speak parseltongue, Harry,' said Dumbledore > calmly, 'because Lord Voldemort - who is the last remaining ancestor > [descendant] of Salazar Slytherin - can speak Parseltongue.'" (CoS p. > 245 UK Edition). > > Note how Dumbledore INSERTS that little "unnecessary" detail of > Voldie being the Heir of Slytherin to explain why Harry can speak to > snakes... Annemehr: Why is that an "unnecessary" detail? I assume he said it because he was well aware that the students had been suspecting Harry of being Slytherin's heir ever since the parseltongue incident (until Hermione was petrified), and because Harry had just brought up the subject of "strange likenesses" with Tom Riddle. So DD told Harry that Riddle was the *last remaining* descendent of SS, and that Harry was not a parselmouth on his own but only because of receiving powers from Voldemort. I do think everything you've discussed and quoted can be consistent with my view that Harry is a natural Gryffindor who has received extra Slytherin qualities from Voldemort. I think Harry's connection to Voldemort and thus to Salazar did come from the time Voldemort tried to AK Harry. Do you think something different, or do you only think we are only too ready to forget about those Slytherin qualities? Berit: He is not just saying Harry can speak parseltongue because > Voldemort accidentally transferred parselmouth to Harry which just > happened to be one of Voldie's powers. Annemehr: Actually, I think that is exactly what he *is* saying. Berit: Voldie being able to speak > parseltongue is not just a lucky coincidence. He can speak > parseltongue BECAUSE he is a direct descendant of Salazar; in fact: > He's the Heir of Slytherin. Harry inheriting this rare gift is > extremely significant. The gift is invariably tied to Voldemort's > Slytherin heritage. Harry might be more "equal" to Voldie than he > likes to think... Harry speaking parseltongue connects him, through > Voldemort, directly to Salazar. Annemehr: Here I agree with you. It is and will be very significant. Berit: > > I still believe Snape knew what he was doing when he set a snake on > Harry :-) I think he "knows"... After all; Hogwarts was buzzing with > rumours as to who the Heir of Slytherin was and what the monster in > the secret chamber was; Snape's a smart guy :-). Annemehr: Well, all that depends on whether he had any reason to suspect Harry's parseltongue ability existed. In your previous post you asked how that could be, since he couldn't have heard about the snake in the zoo. I gave one possible scenario, that he'd been discussing things with Dumbledore. Now, we all know how closed-mouthed Dumbledore is (doesn't give out information until it's too late, someone said - ha!), so it'd be very easy to believe Dumbeldore had told Snape nothing. Still, if he told anybody, I can believe it would have been Snape. And wasn't Hogwarts buzzing with "Harry the Heir" rumors only *after* the dueling club episode? So that wouldn't have helped Snape beforehand. Annemehr From idcre at imap2.asu.edu Thu Dec 4 01:11:09 2003 From: idcre at imap2.asu.edu (backstagemystic) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 01:11:09 -0000 Subject: Snape Poisoning the Longbottoms? Was: Is Agnes Snape's Mother? In-Reply-To: <000201c3b9ad$802c6620$d495aec7@Einstein> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86449 Iggy McSnurd wrote: >>BTW: I don't know if it's been mentioned or not, but there is a significance of the name Burke in "Borgan and Burkes." A long time ago, medical universities in England offered cash for corpses... a decent amount for the time, in fact... and they weren't all that careful to check where they came from. The better the condition of the corpses, the better the pay, since they were used for medical studies. Robert Burke was a man who actually earned his living by murdering people, and selling the bodies to medical schools. He refined a special technique of his own for killing people, that they named it after him..."Burking." (It's a method of suffocation...) << Thanks for sharing that. Once again, JKR certainly does her research well in naming her characters...and then adds her own unique wit: I suspect it's no accident that "Borgin and Burkes" sounds suspiciously like something along the lines of "Bargain Books" (or whatever). BM From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 01:12:52 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 01:12:52 -0000 Subject: The diary (Was: Snape as a Spy and Spy!Lucius, too!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86450 --- justcarol67 wrote: BTW, I still don't understand how Lucius got hold of the diary, which couldn't have been left in the Riddle house at the time of the murders. The police would have found it and realized that Tom Marvolo Riddle, the name on the binding, was not the name of the Tom Riddle who died. A little investigation would lead them to the older Tom's divorce, an unacknowledged son in an orphanage, and a certain teenage murderer. Maybe Voldemort told Lucius that it was at Hogwarts and Lucius forced Dobby to find it and bring it to him? Constance Vigilance (me): I think LV gave it to him during VWI. Lucius was a trusted lieutenant at that time, probably the highest-ranking one. I think LV gave him many personal belongings for safe keeping. My guess is that these things are being stored below the floorboards in the Malfoy parlor. I think Lucius was also given the control of the Riddle house to manage under the guise of the Rich Owner Who Needs Tax Advantages, but I do not think that the diary would have been stored in the Riddle House. The diary was always a worst-case backup plan. And while I love the theory that Lucius is a spy, I really think that Lucius did know that the diary contained the essence of LV. But he thought that Diary!Tom would be content to kill Muggles. Constance Vigilance From leetle_beetch at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 23:19:09 2003 From: leetle_beetch at yahoo.com (mary santillo) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 15:19:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: GOF and OOP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031203231909.79106.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86451 Okay, this is going to sound ridiculous, but when I read the books (I read them all last summer, when OOP came out) I thought that books 1-3 gracefully connected to one another. But is it me, or did JKR start hopping around after book 3? Because it just didn't seem like book 4 and 5 connected to the story ( as in the whole story). Mary Santillo. From mpjdekker at hotmail.com Thu Dec 4 01:20:24 2003 From: mpjdekker at hotmail.com (mightymaus75) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 01:20:24 -0000 Subject: A strange silver instrument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86452 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mightymaus75" wrote: > Actually I think Snape suspected Harry was a Parselmouth because he > used Occlumency on Harry his very first night at Hogwarts: > > > > It's perhaps more likely then that it was Snape using Occlumency on > Harry that caused his scar to hurt. We know that direct eye-contact > is needed for Occlumency, and Harry was specifically disturbed by > the feeling he got from looking directly in Snape's eyes. The fact > that Snape using Occlumency on Harry caused Harry's scar to hurt > seems to indicate that Snape saw the part of Voldemort's mind > buried inside Harry's head. I believe that it is because of this > that Snape decided to have Draco use a snake on Harry in the > Duelling club in CoS. > > -Maus I meant to say Legilimency instead of Occlumency, of course. I always get those two mixed up. -Maus From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 01:53:56 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 01:53:56 -0000 Subject: Green eyes, grandparents, and the Mirror of Erised (Was:Some Discrepancies) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86453 -> Carol wrote: > > I found the reference to eyes using "mother's eyes," not "green eyes." > It's at > > http://www.the-leaky- > cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/1099bostonglobe-loer.html > > > Q: Do you know what Harry's parents look like? > > JKR: Yes. I've even drawn a picture of how they look. Harry has his > > father and mother's good looks. But *he has his mother's eyes and > > that's very important in a future book*. (My asterisks to indicate > > italics.) > > > > > > > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2001/0301- > comicrelief-staff.htm > > > > Q: Do we find out more about James Potter's family history in the > next > > books? > > JKR: Yes, you do. > > > > > > Constance Vigilance (me): > > Very cool, Carol. Great research! > > The original poster was using the evidence of green-eyed people in > the mirror to establish proof that there are wizards in Lily's family > and then attempt to make the leap that Petunia is a squib. My > response was intended to indicate that it proves nothing of the sort, > for one of at least two reasons. 1 - The mirror is a real image of > Lily's family, in addition to James', and says nothing about magical > ability, or 2 - the mirror is simply presenting a fanciful image to > satisfy Harry's deepest desire. In doing so, I seem to have touched > some feelings. > > I am not saying that the people in the mirror _couldn't_ be real > family members, perhaps dead and gone. There is no doubt that the > images of Lily and James are real. I presume that the mirror has > access to external information that it could use to be able to draw > accurate images of people that Harry has never known. Note that not > even JKR tells us, in those excellent quotes that you uncovered, that > the mirror is showing Harry anyone other than his parents. > > The mirror is under no obligation to tell the truth. It could easily > create, out of pure fancy, images that would please Harry. It does > this for poor Quirrel. I'm just saying that we cannot make any > assumptions about Harry's family based on what the mirror chooses to > present. Note that we can also not assume, based on the evidence of > the mirror, that Ron is to be Head Boy. However, the softie in me > hopes both that Harry does have lots of family who love or loved him, > and that Ron has a good shot at being Head Boy. > > I have been enjoying this discussion, by the way. :) > > Constance Vigilance Thanks, Constance. (I always want to put an exclamation point after your sig in honor of Imposter!Moody.) I think we agree on several points, notably that the green eyes don't indicate magical ancestry since her parents, at least, were Muggles, and Petunia can't be a squib. The only discrepancy in our views seems to be regarding the ability of the mirror to conjure images out of Harry's imagination. First, regarding his family. As I said in another post, the Mirror of Erised chapter takes place before he's seen any photographs of his family. We find out later that his parents in the photographs look exactly as they did in the mirror. The mirror's source of information could not have been Harry's memory or imagination. He didn't remember what they looked like. The mirror knew only that he longed for his family, so that's what it showed--more than he expected to see. If it got the appearance of his parents right, I see no reason why it wouldn't get the other Evanses and Potters right as well, whether they were Muggles or Wizards/Witches. As for Quirrell, no imagination or creativity was required to produce an image of the Philosopher's Stone or Voldemort in his fantasy of presenting the stone to his master. It knew exactly what both the Stone and Voldemort looked like. (I do wonder, though, how Quirrell would have managed to present the Stone to a master who was occupying the back of his head!) Carol From mario.pitre at videotron.ca Thu Dec 4 01:51:59 2003 From: mario.pitre at videotron.ca (oiramertip) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 01:51:59 -0000 Subject: Snape set the snake on Harry? (Was: A strange silver instrument) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86454 Berit wrote: > I still believe Snape knew what he was doing when he set a snake on > Harry :-) I think he "knows"... After all; Hogwarts was buzzing with > rumours as to who the Heir of Slytherin was and what the monster in > the secret chamber was; Snape's a smart guy :-). Now me (Mario): I just read about 5 posts arguing about why Snape set a snake on Harry during the duel in Book 2.... But I believe that Harry was dueling with Draco, no? Maybe it is time I read the book again and I have been contaminated by the movie.... From amani at charter.net Thu Dec 4 01:45:43 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 20:45:43 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Salazar Slytherin's descendants (Was Re: A strange silver instrument) References: Message-ID: <008f01c3ba08$55bc14c0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86455 JJPandy's: OK, Tom Riddle is a descendant of Salazar Slytherin. This is through his mother's side of the family, right?, since Tom Riddle becomes Voldemorte who wants nothing to do with his muggle father. But if Tom Riddle's mother was a descendant of Salazar Slytherin who was very much into keeping the wizard blood pure, then why did she go off and marry a muggle? Taryn: Just because she's a descendent doesn't mean she's a carbon copy of his beliefs. Tom's pretty obsessive about it. (I, for one, think Salazar Slytherin's views and history have been skewed throughout the years and that he's not such an evil guy.) JJPandy: Is this why Tom Riddle turns into such an angry person? Is it because his mother went against the family tradition which in turn led to his shameful birth as a half-blood? Taryn: Oh, I think they're many reasons TR's such an angry person. (I don't think one single thing can cause an entire complex like that.) But I don't think his anger is directed much at his mother--do we see him talk badly about her? It's always about his father, the filthy muggle who abandoned his mother. He's obviously ashamed of his half-blood status, but, from what we've seen, it doesn't seem to be blamed on his mother. JJPandy: Also, in the graveyard scene of GoF, why does Voldemorte use the "bone of his father" instead of his mother, since she is the one with the wizard blood? Taryn: I believe it's part of the whole spell. It wasn't something Voldemort chose, it was just the necessary ingredient. ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amani at charter.net Thu Dec 4 01:55:33 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 20:55:33 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Salazar Slytherin's descendants (Was Re: A strange silver instrument) References: <006a01c3ba28$34c093c0$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: <009d01c3ba09$b4851b40$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86456 "Berit Jakobsen" He can speak > > parseltongue BECAUSE he is a direct descendant of Salazar; in fact: > > He's the Heir of Slytherin. K: What makes us think that the Heir has to be a descendent anyway. Why can't it be more a case of someone who embodies the characteristics that that House holds in highest esteem. With purebloods being so keen on who's related to whom, wouldn't everyone have known if Riddle's mother was a descendent of Salazar. Taryn: Well, TR seems to be a blood descendent, at least. (He thinks so, anyway.) "You think I was going to use my filthy Muggle fathe's name forever? I, in whose veins runs the blood of Salazar Slytherin himself, through my mother's side?" (CoS, American paperback pg. 314) So he's clearly talking about being a /blood/ Heir. It's possible that everyone might have known Riddle's mother was descended from Salazar Slytherin--it could very well have been the way he found out! Imagine getting to Hogwarts and getting sorted into Slytherin and all these pureblood classmates going, "Ohmygosh! You're descended from Salazar Slytherin!" (Sounds a bit like Harry, doesn't it? Being known for something you have no idea about and coming in to Hogwarts and people knowing all about it?) K: What I really want to know is how TR managed to convince anyone that Hagrid was behind the opening of the Chamber. I mean a half-giant Gryffindor? Who in their right mind is going to believe he was the Heir? Taryn: It's a good point, and TR even talks about in in CoS. "It was my word against Hagrid's, Harry. Well, you can imagine how it looked to old Armando Dippet. On the one hand, Tom Riddle, poor but brilliant, parentless but so *brave*, school prefect, model student...on the other hand, big, blundering Hagrid, in trouble every other week, trying to raise werewolf cubs under his bed, sneaking off to the Forbidden Forest to wrestle trolls...but I admit, even *I* was surprised how well the plan worked. I thought *someone* must realize that Hagrid couldn't possibly be the Heir of Slytherin." (CoS American paperback pg. 311-312) ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mario.pitre at videotron.ca Thu Dec 4 01:28:14 2003 From: mario.pitre at videotron.ca (oiramertip) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 01:28:14 -0000 Subject: Hagrid and Dudley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86457 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gabrielle9578" wrote: > Hagrid gave Dudley a pig's tail > and I dont remember the Ministry of Magic sending an owl to him at > all--like what happened to Harry on both occasions (Dobby in Chamber > of Secrets and his patronus in Order of the phoenix). Now me (Mario) : Could it simply be because Hagrid is not an underaged wizard? I seem to remember that Harry is in trouble not simply because he uses magic, but because he is underaged.... From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 02:34:01 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 02:34:01 -0000 Subject: Snape as a Spy, but for Whom? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86458 > > Carol in response to Aesha: > > > > Voldemort also presumably knows all about Snape's opposition to > > Quirrell in SS/PS. ... > > > > bboy_mn: > > One minor point regarding Snape's interaction with Quirrell while > Voldemort possessed Quirrell; Voldemort did not reveal himself to > Snape, therefore Snape had no way of knowing he was working against > Voldemort. So, while Voldemort can be unhappy about it, he certainly > can't blame Snape, or consider Snape's actions as being directed > against Voldemort. Carol: Don't you think that Snape knows that Quirrell is trying to get the stone for Voldemort? He taunts Quirrell about "where his loyalties lie," which to me means with Voldemort or with Dumbledore. Snape is very sharp and he can sense when people are lying. He would have used his talents as a Legilmens to read as much of Quirrell's mind as he could without actually casting a spell on him. As far as I can see, the only real point on which we disagree is that Snape started off as a double agent. You don't seem fully convinced of his loyalty to Dumbledore; I am. Also, I don't see any need for him to come face to face with Voldemort, but if he did, he'd need every bit of his expertise in occlumency. I still think that being at Hogwarts protects Snape (and everyone else) during the school year, at least as long as Dumbledore is there. (DEs can't apparate in, and Snape will have his eye on the DADA teacher, whoever it is.) Once he leaves the safe bounds of the school, though, he may be in danger, especially if Voldemort now feels that his suspicions regarding Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore are confirmed. If the DEs escape and Malfoy suspects he's been double-crossed, he *will* be in danger. (OTOH, we know he survives at least into Book 7, so I won't worry about him too much.) I'm still not clear about your reference to Snape being familiar with the room Voldemort was in. Can you provide a page reference and an explanation? As for Snape sending Voldemort an owl, I really don't think so. I'm sure that until the Mom incident, he dealt exclusively with Lucius Malfoy. His choices for go-betweens are even more limited now. Nothing to do but wait and see, I guess. One last question to anyone who's interested: Do we know for sure that Snape knows Voldemort's true identity? Or are we just assuming that he knew because he was a Death Eater or because Dumbledore told him? I'm guessing that Dumbledore told him the whole story of the diary and the destruction of Young Tom's memory at some point, do we have any stronger evidence? Bellatrix seems not to know, or else she knows about Tom Riddle but didn't know that he was a half-blood. Both Snape and Bellatrix are very much younger than Tom Riddle and could not have known him when he was his (outwardly) normal self. Carol From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 02:37:46 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 02:37:46 -0000 Subject: Bang! You're dead. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86459 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > K: > > I agree that JKR seems to be showing that morally (although not necessarily legally) when and why we make certain choices ie killing someone, are very important, in fact possibly more important than the decision in the first place. Although other times it seems that the choice is important rather than the reasoning behind it > > > > Kneasy: > JKR is undoubtedly a moral person, but I question whether morality is the most important criterium in the prevailing circumstances. > Given Harry's situation - a homicidal, paranoid megolamanic is trying to blow his head off - would the morality of what he (Harry) does be at the fore-front of his thinking? Very unlikely. And then for DD to come out with "It's either you or him; best of luck." doesn't exactly offer many options. > > K > > I think that the whole system surrounding the unforgivables is idiotic anyway. Cruciatus I can understand being illegal, regardless of circumstances. It is there only to cause pain and while one could use it to distract/disable an opponent there are other equally effective spells. However Imperius and AK have their uses. > > Kneasy: > Makes you wonder why they're described and circumscribed in the way > they are. Back to the old argument that a gun is not evil of itself, only the way that it is used. > K: > > I do agree with the quote but the WW doesn't seem to have bothered to define 'necessary' when allowing the Aurors to use Unforgivables, the practice if not the actual law seems to have gone from - no, under no circumstances, not even in self-defence, to, as long as it's a DE and you can get away with it. > > Laura, emerging from the avalanche of leftovers and holiday visitors: This business of the Unforgivables intrigues me. Why these three? There are lots of ways to hurt people and kill them. You don't even have to make it look like an accident the way one recent post suggested (i.e., Accio'ing something sharp into the victim's back- nice one!). And when you think about it, AK is inconsistent with the other 2 Unforgivables in that it's quick, painless and dignified (as it were). The person is alive one moment and dead the next-no muss, no fuss. But Imperio and Crucio are ways to inflict real, lasting damage, with effects that can be both mental and physical. I can see why those would be beyond the pale, but I don't know why AK is worse than any other form of intentional killing. Sure, there's no known defense, but the theoretical availability of a defense against other forms of lethal attack doesn't mean the victim can use it at the necessary moment. Dead is dead, after all. And why isn't it Unforgivable to invade someone's mind without their permission? Lots of people have objected to the casual use of Obliviate as well, and I agree that it's morally questionable. So the standards the WW is using to decide what curses are Unforgivable are obscure to me. It doesn't surprise me that Aurors were given permission to use Unforgivables during LVI. Soldiers during wartime are given powers to do things that they aren't supposed to do during peacetime, and in fact, they're trained to do just that. Aurors must have to know how to use Unforgivables even if they never have to use them. As for the question of whether it's moral to kill, I think there are times when it's immoral not to (easy for me to say, never having been in such a situation, thank God). My ethical tradition teaches that killing to save one's own life is a morally acceptable act. To allow someone to take your life without trying to save yourself shows a lack of respect for the great gift life is. For Harry to decide that killing Lv is immoral would be colossally wrong in every way. This is not a fight he sought or provoked but it's one he's stuck with. You don't even have to argue that other people's lives depend on Harry's willingness to take on LV. We can assume that people died after LV fell the first time (because of what happened to the Longbottoms-there may have been rogue DE's around for a while). Harry has the moral right-even the moral obligation-to defend his life. Where it gets morally interesting is when we theorize how proactive Harry can be and still be acting morally. Killing in self-defense is morally justifiable; murder isn't. S can Harry morally hunt LV down? Can he kill LV in an ambush? I don't think Harry will do either of those but they're harder moral questions to me than whether Harry can use lethal force to defend himself against an enemy using the same level of force. In my mind, once someone has demonstrated that s/he really intends to kill someone else, that potential victim is free to do what s/he needs to do to protect her/his life. Laura, who is glad to be back on the list and thinks that Sirius and Remus should have turned Peter back into a rat and handed him over to Crookshanks From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 02:49:14 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 02:49:14 -0000 Subject: Snape as a Spy, but for Whom? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86460 > > > bboy_mn: > > > > > > One minor point regarding Snape's interaction with Quirrell while > > > Voldemort possessed Quirrell; ..., while Voldemort can be unhappy > > > about it, he certainly can't blame Snape, or consider Snape's > > > actions as being directed against Voldemort. > > > > > > > K > > > > And if Snape's counting on that then he's- > > a) very very sure of his value to Voldemort, > > b) loyal to Dumbledore to the point of taking extreme risks - and > > I mean above and beyond the 'normal' risks of spying here, or > > c)insane. > > > > Because I'm not sure I'd want to risk my life on the assumption that > > the insane psychopath I was pretending to follow was going to act in > > an incredibly reasonable, forgiving and logical manner. > > > > K > > bboy_mn: > > I have no doubt that Snape paid a high price in PAIN, for messing with > Voldemort's efforts to get the Stone. And another high price in pain, > just to remind Snape, that failure (or betrayal) are not an option. > > I think Voldemort is very sure of Snape's value, but perhaps for > different reasons than Snape views his own value. Certainly, Voldemort > knows Snape, having been a teacher at Hogwarts and working closely > with Dumbledore, has a lot of valuable information and insight into > Dumbledore. But that doesn't mean he fully trust or has fully taken > Snape back into the fold. It just means that for now, he sees Snape as > being useful. > > When his preceived usefulness is gone, then Snape is gone along with it. Carol: I agree with Kathryn. Snape would have been insane to go directly to Voldemort, occlumency or no occlumency. As you (Steve) conceded earlier, it would have been much safer and more sensible (dangerous but not crazy) to go to Malfoy with his explanation of why he wasn't at the graveyard. Snape is braver than most Slytherins, but he knows the difference between the necessary risk of being betrayed by Malfoy and the certainty of being tortured or murdered by Voldemort. As for his being killed off when his perceived usefulness is gone, no doubt that's Voldemort's plan. But I think he's underestimated Snape, who's more than a match in cunning and overall wizardry for any Death Eater we've seen. Voldemort would have to AK him in person to kill him off, and I for one don't think that's going to happen. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 03:04:17 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 03:04:17 -0000 Subject: Salazar Slytherin's descendants (Was Re: A strange silver instrument) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86461 > "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > > > > What makes us think that the Heir has to be a descendent anyway. > Why can't > > it be more a case of someone who embodies the characteristics that > that > > House holds in highest esteem. > > kg: > > > > However, I suspect that Voldemort is both the Descendant and Chosen > Heir of Slytherin. We know that bloodlines are important to > Slytherin, and so it makes sense his chosen heir would be both > related to him and carry on his ideals. Carol: Slytherin didn't exactly choose his heir, since he had no way of knowing who'd be alive five hundred or a thousand years later, whenever the Heir appeared. I do aggree, though, that Riddle was both his blood descendant and the heir to his "ideals." Tom, whose mother was long dead and who had been raised in a Muggle orphanage, could not have known when he entered Hogwarts as a child of eleven that he was the Heir of Slytherin, but once he learned that he and Salazar Slytherin were among the few wizards in history with the gift of Parseltongue, he must have realized that he was a direct descendant (presumably through his mother and her father Marvolo, whose last name we're not given). When he also learned about the Chamber of Secrets and Slytherin's "noble goal" of rooting out the "mud bloods," he appointed himself as Heir, seeing it as both his destiny and his duty. And since he clearly *was* the Heir he recognized himself as being, he was able to open the Chamber and launch himself on a noble career as multiple murderer and despot, courtesy of Salazar's basilisk. Carol From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 02:45:34 2003 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 02:45:34 -0000 Subject: Snape set the snake on Harry? (Was: A strange silver instrument) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86462 Berit wrote: > > I still believe Snape knew what he was doing when he set a snake > on > > Harry :-) I think he "knows"... After all; Hogwarts was buzzing > with > > rumours as to who the Heir of Slytherin was and what the monster > in > > the secret chamber was; Snape's a smart guy :-). > > Now me (Mario): > > I just read about 5 posts arguing about why Snape set a snake on > Harry during the duel in Book 2.... But I believe that Harry was > dueling with Draco, no? Maybe it is time I read the book again and I > have been contaminated by the movie.... In the book, Snape whispers something in Draco's ear, *then* Draco casts Serpensortia at Harry. It looks like Snape *suggested* Draco use that particular spell on Harry. You're right. Draco did the actual spellcasting, but Snape was almost definately behind Draco chosing that particular spell. Yolanda From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 03:19:07 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 03:19:07 -0000 Subject: Prefects question. In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20031204100452.00a3bac0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86463 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tanya Swaine wrote: > This has been bugging me for some time. In the books it says that Remus > was the > prefect in that group, not James. However, in other instances, they say > that Lily and > James were head boy and girl. Now what I cannot figure out is this. I > assumed that > the head boy and girl were chosen from the pool of prefects from all the > houses. Now, > this might work if Remus wasn't in the same house as James, but again, > there is no > mention I can find that James was ever a prefect. > > Thoughts anyone? > > Tanya I think the simplest explanation is that while Prefects are appointed primarily for their leadership potential, Head Boy and Head Girl are academic honors. Remus was appointed Prefect instead of James because, as Sirius pointed out, he spent too much time in detention. A boy like that is unlikely to inspire others to follow the rules. OTOH, his marks were higher than Remus's (probably the highest in the school) so he became Head Boy. Most Head Boys, Percy, for example, start out as Prefects, but one is not a prerequisite for the other. I was sure there was a short explanation to this effect in the FAQ, but I can't find it. It's not on the Hogwarts FAQ, though there is a less concise discussion of Prefects there. Can anyone point the way? Thanks, Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 03:40:37 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 03:40:37 -0000 Subject: Harry's scar and Snape (Was: A strange silver instrument) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86464 Maus wrote: > Actually I think Snape suspected Harry was a Parselmouth because he > used Occlumency on Harry his very first night at Hogwarts: > > > It happened very suddenly. The hook-nosed teacher looked past > Quirrell's turban straight into Harry's eyes -- and a sharp, hot pain > shot across the scar on Harry's forehead. > > > Of course, we are meant to think that Harry felt his scar hurt > because he looked directly at Quirrell's turban. > > It's perhaps more likely then that it was Snape using Occlumency on > Harry that caused his scar to hurt. We know that direct eye-contact > is needed for Occlumency, and Harry was specifically disturbed by the > feeling he got from looking directly in Snape's eyes. The fact that > Snape using Occlumency on Harry caused Harry's scar to hurt seems to > indicate that Snape saw the part of Voldemort's mind buried inside > Harry's head. I > -Maus Sorry, Maus, but JKR herself has made clear that this scene is a classic red herring. Instead of being meant to think that Harry felt his scar hurt because he was looking at Quirrell's turban, we're meant to think that Snape caused the pain. We can't possibly suspect Quirrell's turban on a first reading because we have no idea that Voldemort is inside. Instead we're set up to think that Snape is not only a mean teacher but an evil agent of Voldemort. As we learn later, however, only Voldemort, who caused the scar in the first place, can cause the scar to hurt. Snape can't do it through occlumency or legilmency or any other means any more than Uncle Vernon can. Here's what JKR herself has to say to a question from a child reader who thinks that "Snap" caused the pain (SB is the person reading the questions): SB: Why in the first book does Harry's lightening scar flash, or when he gets his lightening scar flash, when Snap looks at him? JKR: Snape. SB: Snape. JKR:. . . If anyone hasn't finished reading book one, would they please put their fingers really tightly in their ears now, if they don't want the ending ruined? Really tightly now, cause this is a question about the ending. Um... Quirrell had the back of his head to Harry at the point when Harry looked at Snape, so someone else was looking at Harry through a certain turban. See what I mean? If you've read it, you understand, and if you haven't read it, you're going what? But that's okay. (Carol again): In other words, the scar hurt because Voldemort was looking at Harry through Quirrell's turban. Here's a link to the whole article if you need it: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/1099-pressclubtransc.html Carol From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 03:55:54 2003 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 03:55:54 -0000 Subject: Where Have the Wands Gone???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86465 meriaugust wrote: > Was just perusing a few older posts, and I am pretty sure that > this has been discussed before but I can't keep myself from > wondering: where do wands go when their wizard owners have been > incapacitated? I'd thought about this a few times too. Here are my theories on the subject. > Neville's father's wand belonged to Neville up to the end of OotP, > but that's just a natural inheritance. So how did Voldemort get > his wand back after that fateful night in Godric's Hollow? I'd always assumed that one of his loyal deatheaters took his wand and kept it safe for him. That's truly the only explanation I can come up with. > How did Wormtail get his wand back after being in hiding as a rat > for twelve years? He may have had it all along. Animagus keep their clothes and other possessions when they transform back and forth. Also, since someone else mentioned that Scabbers was lying next to *Ron's* wand, he may not have had access to his own wand during the twelve years that he was hiding as a rat, however he did have access to *a* wand. Not to mention, he could always get a new wand. He may not be able to walk in to Ollivander's as himself, but he could either wear a disguise to buy one (if that's allowed) or he could simply steal wands from other wizards. Using other wizards' wands would work just not as well. > And how did Sirius get his wand back after a prison term in > Azkaban? I don't think he got his wand back. He probably had to get a new one or if not a new one a replacement. He could have found one at Grimmauld Place. An old wizarding family like the Blacks ought to have at least one old wand stored away. I think Sirius would get a real kick out of dragging around some family heirloom that he probably wasn't even allowed to touch as a child *smile*. Another idea I had was perhaps we didn't see all of the members of the OOtP, who's to say there aren't other, less active members and/or sympathizers. Ollivander could be one of them. Besides, I think there are other places besides Ollivander's to get a wand. See below about "recylcled" wands. > Does Lockhart, now recovering his memory in St. Mungo's, > still have access to a wand? I don't think so. He's not "all there", so I doubt anyone would allow him to have a wand right now. > What happens to wands when wizards die? Like Neville's wand, I assume they are treated like other possessions of course for practical reasons, they might be handled a special way. For example, Neville may have inherited his father's wand, however his Gran wouldn't have given it to him until after he received his Hogwarts letter. > Are they destroyed or recycled? Just some questions that keep > bothering me. > Meri > (who now hopes the JKR will dedicate an entire chapter of book 6 to > thorny wand problems) I imagine that unusable wands are either destroyed or for sentimental reasons shelved. Ron's wand after CoS would fall into the "unusable" category. I don't know if the wood and core of a wand that has been damaged *can* be recycled. However, since used wands will work for other wizards, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a used wand shop in Diagon Alley or Hogsmead. Since Charlie's old wand was available for Ron to use, we may not have heard about such a shop yet. A market for used wands will exist. Sure if you had a choice, you'd want a new one that is properly suited to you, but not everone will have that choice. Knockturn Alley could also have a used wand shop that isn't too discriminating about whom they sell to. Sirius or Wormtail could wear a disguise while they shopped there. Yolanda From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 04:42:33 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 04:42:33 -0000 Subject: The diary (Was: Snape as a Spy and Spy!Lucius, too!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86466 -Carol wrote: > > BTW, I still don't understand how Lucius got hold of the diary, which > couldn't have been left in the Riddle house at the time of the > murders. The police would have found it and realized that Tom Marvolo > Riddle, the name on the binding, was not the name of the Tom Riddle > who died. A little investigation would lead them to the older Tom's > divorce, an unacknowledged son in an orphanage, and a certain teenage > murderer. Maybe Voldemort told Lucius that it was at Hogwarts and > Lucius forced Dobby to find it and bring it to him? > > Constance Vigilance: > > I think LV gave it to him during VWI. Lucius was a trusted lieutenant > at that time, probably the highest-ranking one. I think LV gave him > many personal belongings for safe keeping. My guess is that these > things are being stored below the floorboards in the Malfoy parlor. I > think Lucius was also given the control of the Riddle house to manage > under the guise of the Rich Owner Who Needs Tax Advantages, but I do > not think that the diary would have been stored in the Riddle House. > > The diary was always a worst-case backup plan. And while I love the > theory that Lucius is a spy, I really think that Lucius did know that > the diary contained the essence of LV. But he thought that Diary!Tom > would be content to kill Muggles. Carol: I'm glad we agree that Voldemort didn't leave the diary at the Riddle House, but that still doesn't explain how Lucius got hold of it to give it to Ginny or was able to keep it under his floorboards all those years. Here's my attempt to fit your LV1 theory as opposed to the Dobby alternative. Tell me if it makes sense. TR wrote the diary in 1943 and left Hogwarts in 1945. It's highly improbable that he carried it around during his travels from 1945-1970 while he was busy transforming himself and trying to become immortal. I think it's much more likely that he left it at Hogwarts in some secure place just before he graduated in 1945, nine years before Lucius was born. TR returned as Lord Voldemort in 1970 when Lucius was about sixteen. If Lucius precociously became a Death Eater as a sixth- or seventh-year student in 1970 or 1971, LV could have informed him where the diary was hidden and asked him to find it and keep it for him. That's the only way I can see Lucius receiving it during LV1. That seems to be the only window of opportunity unless LV kept it in his own possession, where it couldn[t be found or used, for 25 years. Or if it was at Hogwarts but he give Lucius instructions to find it, we're left with Dobby retrieving it after LV's second return, just in time for Lucius to give it to Ginny Weasley. (I say Dobby because I very much doubt that Lucius would have left the job to Draco, who seems to have been almost as much in the dark about the Heir of Slytherin as Harry.) So I think Lucius finding it in 1970 or 1971 is the most plausible alternative. Does that make sense? It's the only way I can fit your time line. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 05:01:53 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 05:01:53 -0000 Subject: GOF and OOP In-Reply-To: <20031203231909.79106.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86467 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, mary santillo wrote: > Okay, this is going to sound ridiculous, but when I read the books (I read them all last summer, when OOP came out) I thought that books 1-3 gracefully connected to one another. > > But is it me, or did JKR start hopping around after book 3? Because it just didn't seem like book 4 and 5 connected to the story ( as in the whole story). > > Mary Santillo. Carol: Maybe it was just the disorienting opening of GoF, where she shifts the POV to a completely unknown character who ends up dead. If you're expecting another summer with the Dursleys, that's quite as startling to you as it was to Harry. I don't know about anyone else, but I found it a refreshing change. The exposition about Harry being an unusual boy who happened to have a lightning-shaped scar, etc., etc. was getting pretty old, I thought. But after that the story returns to the familiar pattern--his birthday, his friends, his return to Hogwarts. OoP disrupts the usual pattern in a different way, by introducing 12 Grimmauld Place (and it does spend rather a lot of time there), but after that the only structural difference is the repeated dream sequences involving the door, which picks up on the dream motif established in GoF. Is that what you mean? Or is it the difference in tone (darker because innocent people die) or the changing characters, who after all are growing up even if they weren't facing dark times and unusual challenges? Did you feel that there wasn't enough teamwork in GoF, which was more Harry-focused than the other books, or that there were too many new characters? Anyway, I don't feel that the story is hopping around, but it is becoming more complex, and I only hope that JKR keeps a close eye on all her plot threads. I'd recommend a rereading of the whole series in sequence if you can find the time; if not, just books 1-3. If not, the FAQs and Lexicon may be helpful. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 05:23:45 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 05:23:45 -0000 Subject: Snape set the snake on Harry? (Was: A strange silver instrument) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86468 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oiramertip" wrote: > Berit wrote: > > I still believe Snape knew what he was doing when he set a snake > on > > Harry :-) I think he "knows"... After all; Hogwarts was buzzing > with > > rumours as to who the Heir of Slytherin was and what the monster > in > > the secret chamber was; Snape's a smart guy :-). > > Now me (Mario): > > I just read about 5 posts arguing about why Snape set a snake on > Harry during the duel in Book 2.... But I believe that Harry was > dueling with Draco, no? Maybe it is time I read the book again and I > have been contaminated by the movie.... I had the same feeling and went back to look. Snape does whisper in Draco's ear, so it seems that Serpensortia! is Snape's idea, not Draco's, even though it's Draco who casts the spell (CS 193 Am. ed.). So Berit is right that Snape suggested the spell, but I don't think that Snape fully anticipated the consequences, "smart guy" though he indisputably is. Although a snake is the emblem of Slytherin and would naturally have suggested itself to Snape's mind as a spell for Draco to cast, he may well have begun to suspect that the monster is a basilisk and had that thought in the back of his mind as well. But I don't see how he could have anticipated Harry's ability to speak Parseltongue. He certainly didn't seriously suspect Harry (the ultimate Gryffindor) of being the Heir of Slytherin and the person responsible for petrifying the students. So whatever Snape's motive in suggesting that Draco produce the snake (which he, of course, intended to get rid of before it did any harm to the students), I think he was as surprised as anyone at Harry's ability to speak Parseltongue. It was only after the fact that the pieces started fitting together in his cunning and logical mind. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 05:45:39 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 05:45:39 -0000 Subject: Salazar Slytherin's descendants (Was Re: A strange silver instrument) In-Reply-To: <008f01c3ba08$55bc14c0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86469 > JJPandy's: > OK, Tom Riddle is a descendant of Salazar Slytherin. This is through > his mother's side of the family, right?, since Tom Riddle becomes > Voldemorte who wants nothing to do with his muggle father. But if > Tom Riddle's mother was a descendant of Salazar Slytherin who was > very much into keeping the wizard blood pure, then why did she go off > and marry a muggle? > > Taryn: > Just because she's a descendent doesn't mean she's a carbon copy of his beliefs. Tom's pretty obsessive about it. (I, for one, think Salazar Slytherin's views and history have been skewed throughout the years and that he's not such an evil guy.) Carol: I would think that too if it weren't for the basilisk he left behind. That seems to necessitate a grimmer view. > JJPandy: > Also, in the graveyard scene of GoF, why does Voldemorte use > the "bone of his father" instead of his mother, since she is the one > with the wizard blood? > > Taryn: > I believe it's part of the whole spell. It wasn't something Voldemort chose, it was just the necessary ingredient. Carol: Also it's the *bone* of the father (which makes sense considering that he's trying to construct a male body) and the *blood* of a wizard (Harry). (Not to mention the flesh of the servant--shiver! I'm not sure why that required an entire hand.) I think Voldemort got a bit of pleasure out of digging up his father's grave to resurrect himself that he wouldn't have received from digging up his mother's, but that wouldn't have deterred him from using her bone if the spell had required it, assuming that he knew where she was buried. But the point is that his mother's blood wasn't required to protect him or to add magic or for any reason whatever. Any wizard would do for the blood, but he specifically wanted Harry's, probably because he suspected that some of his own power was in it. (What else is there that caused the gleam of triumph in Dimbledore's eye, we don't yet know, but it will undoubtedly prove significant.) Carol Carol From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 06:25:06 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 06:25:06 -0000 Subject: The Room of Requirement is the Chamber Pot Room? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86470 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jjpandy" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: > > > > I would agree that there is a case that the GOF/OOTP references are > > to the same room but I don't think it covers the room in PS. > > Valky: Personally I think whichever poster postulated the possibility (twisted tongue ;-p) that the Room of Requirement may have been the mirror room in PS is brilliant and deserves a pat on the back. Additionally I expect Dumbledore entered the room because he *needed* to find Harry at the time, we know that at that time DD was especially concerned with protecting Harry as he confesses to that in OoP. My only concern that this may be incorrect is a comment made by JKR in an interveiw which refers to the part of Hogwarts she would first visit could she go there. (Sorry for the lack of linkage perhaps a kind colleague in posting will help me out with that.) I cannot precisely remember if her quote states that Harry has not actually visited the room before, or whether it just says he doesnt know about it leaving the implication of it being there in PS open for possiblity. Of course if it *does* say he hasnt visited it then its not the mirror room. Which doesnt seem right to me, and in which case I would be inclined to believe that JKR has slipped in a paradox puzzle somewhat like the one Dobby uses in COS that the Mystery has nothing to do with Voldemort but instead with his alter ego. ie Harry in PS and Harry in GOF are not quite the same person he did Time-turn between those two points among other things. Ohoh I am tumbling down the rabbit hole now. Perhaps I should save that for another day. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 08:10:07 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 08:10:07 -0000 Subject: Snape as a Spy, but for Whom? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86471 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > > > Carol in response to Aesha: > > > > > > Voldemort also presumably knows all about Snape's opposition to > > > Quirrell in SS/PS. ... > > > > > > > bboy_mn: > > > > ... regarding Snape's interaction with Quirrell while > > Voldemort possessed Quirrell; Voldemort did not reveal himself to > > Snape, therefore Snape had no way of knowing he was working > > against Voldemort. ... > > Carol: > Don't you think that Snape knows that Quirrell is trying to get the > stone for Voldemort? bboy_mn: No; sorry, I don't. How would Snape know? Why would he even suspect that Voldemort was involved when there had been no sign of Voldemort for more that a decade? > Carol: > > He taunts Quirrell about "where his loyalties > lie," which to me means with Voldemort or with Dumbledore. bboy_mn: Which to me means, for Dumbledore or against him. I don't see Voldemort in the equation from Snape's perspective. > Carol: > > Snape ... would have used his talents as a Legilmens to read ... > Quirrell's mind ... > bboy_mn: Accept, we have no real indication that Snape is talented at Legilimency. We know he can cast the spell, but we have no indications that he has any ingrained talent for probing other people's minds. We do, however, know that Snape does have a very gifted natural talent in Occlumency, but having the talent to block your mind does not automatically include the talent to probe other people's minds. > Carol: > > ... You don't seem fully convinced of his loyalty to Dumbledore; ... bboy_mn: Actually, I do think Snape is commited to Dumbledore's side, but as a double agent, I think he may have to do some pretty nasty things against one or more members of the Order to maintain his cover. > Carol: > Also, I don't see any need for him to come face to face with > Voldemort, but if he did, he'd need every bit of his expertise in > occlumency. bboy_mn: And I can't see Voldemort allow Snape to live unless he met him face-to-face and attempted to probe his mind to determine his true allegiance. I do agree that Snape needed every bit of his Occlumency talent to pull off the deception. And as I pointed out, even if Voldemort fully believed Snape, that wouldn't stop him from throwing in a few pain curses just for good measure. > Carol: > > I still think that being at Hogwarts protects Snape ... during the > school year, at least as long as Dumbledore is there. > bboy_mn: Without a doubt everyone is safe while they are at Hogwart and under the watchful eye of Dumbledore, but at this point in time, Snape needs no protection. I do confess that in the time between Voldemort's return and when Snape had Malfoy contact Voldemort on Snape's behalf, Snape was vulnerable. But, once Malfoy vouched for Snape, and offered explanations and reasurances, Snape was pretty safe. > Carol: > > I'm still not clear about your reference to Snape being familiar > with the room Voldemort was in. Can you provide a page reference and > an explanation? > bboy_mn: First remember the scene in Harry's dorm room, where Harry is seeing through Voldemort's eyes as Voldemort questions Rookwood. Rookwood explains that no one but the people involved in the prophecy would be able to remove it from the shelf. (OoP Am. Ed. HB Pg 584- ) Before Rookwood escaped from Azkaban, Avery told Voldemort that Bode would be able to remove the prophecy from the shelf. That cause Voldemort to waste time sending two people (Bode and Podmore) who had no chance at all of getting the prophecy, after it. Since Avery provided the inaccurate information, at the end of the scene, Voldemort is torturing Avery. This scene is seen by Harry through Voldemort's eyes, so Harry sees the room that Voldemort is in, but does not see Voldemort himself. Later in an Occlumency lesson with Snape, that memory is pulled from Harry's mind and Snape question Harry about how that particular room came to be in Harry's mind. --- Quote - (OoP Am. Ed. HB Pg 590- ) --- "That last memory," said Snape. "What was it?" "I don't know," said Harry, getting wearily to his feet. ..edited... "You mena the one where my cousin tried to make me stand in the toilet?" "No," said Snape softly. "I mean the one concerning a man kneeling in the middle of a darkened room." ..edited... "How do that man and that room come to be inside you hear, Potter?" said Snape. ...edited... "... How many other dreams about the Dark Lord have you had?" --- pause quote --- Remember Voldemort could not be seen in the dream because everything was seen through Voldemort's eyes, so Snape recognises the room, and knows that it is the location where the Dark Lord is staying. To have that detailed knowledge from the short flash of Harry's memory, I conclude that Snape would have to know the room intimately enough to recognise it as a room at the location that Voldemort is staying. To have that level of intimate knowledge, he would have had to have been there. --- Quote Continues Pg 591 --- "...," said Snape coldly, "because ..., it is no up to you to find out what the Dark Lord is saying to his Death Eaters." "No -- that's your job, isn't it?" Harry shot back at him. ...edited... "Yes, Potter," he (Snape) said, his eyes glinting. "That is my job. ...." --- End Quote --- Snape admits that it is his job to spy on Voldemort and the Death Eaters, and further implies that Snape is capable of relaying specific statements made by Voldemort. Admittedly, he could get that information second hand, but second hand is second best to actually hearing it. If Voldemort was still mad at Snape, Snape would not be able to safely be in contact with any Death Eaters. The fact that he is able to, indicate that he has reconciled with Voldemort; at least for now. The only scenerio I can think of that would allow Snape to have done the things he's done, and still be able to return to Voldemort's army, is if he was a double agent from the very beginning. Remember that a significant number of people know that Snape gave testimony against DE's during the 'war crimes' trials. The only way for Snape to do that and still be able to get back into the DE's would be if he was always working both sides. Remember, to be a double agent, each side has to expect to be betrayed to some extent in order for the double agent to maintain his position as a double agent. > Carol: > > As for Snape sending Voldemort an owl, I really don't think so. > bboy_mn: Actually, I was referring to general routine communcations for Voldemort, not intending to imply communications send directly to Voldemort. I agree that for security and other reasons most communications would go through a go-between; most likely Malfoy, and only used the owl as an illustration. Just as the Order does not want flock of owl flying in and out of headquaters, Voldemort would also want to maintain that security. So Snape may be communication by owls, but it is indirectly through an intermediary. > Carol: > > One last question to anyone who's interested: Do we know for sure > that Snape knows Voldemort's true identity? ...edited... > > Carol bboy_mn: I'm thoroughly convinced that Snape now knows about the Tom Riddle/Voldemort connection, but exactly when he found out, I'm not sure. I also wonder just how much the Death Eaters know about Tom Riddle. They must have some vague knowledge, and now that they have been to the graveyard location of the re-embodiment of Voldemort, they have surely made the connection. But exactly what they know about Tom Riddle Sr and his being a muggle is unclear. I believe Voldemort made the comment to Harry about Tom Riddle Sr. being a muggle and a fool before the DE's arrived. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From belijako at online.no Thu Dec 4 08:49:11 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 08:49:11 -0000 Subject: A strange silver instrument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86472 Annemehr wrote: > > I do think everything you've discussed and quoted can be consistent > with my view that Harry is a natural Gryffindor who has received extra > Slytherin qualities from Voldemort. Berit replies: Sorry I don't have the time to reply to your whole post; I'm going away for some days. I just wanted to say that my point is not that Harry is not a true and/or natural Gryffindor; a lot of clues point in the direction that he certainly is. What I'm saying, is that he is also strongly connected to the Slytherin house. I'm sorry this does not make sense when I can't explain in detail. But let me just throw out a crazy thought (based on canon as I see it): If such things as the house's heirs are going to be important in the Harry Potter story; then I have reason to believe Harry is BOTH the Gryffindor Heir AND the Slytherin Heir (inherited accidentally? from Voldie)... Meaning: The once old, best friends Salazar and Godric reconsiled at last; in one true heir! Something which could come in handy in the final war when the houses need to stand united... Sorry, just a teaser; I don't have the time right now to back it up with canon evidence :-) Berit From inky_quill at hotmail.com Thu Dec 4 07:38:23 2003 From: inky_quill at hotmail.com (Julie) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 07:38:23 -0000 Subject: The diary (Was: Snape as a Spy and Spy!Lucius, too!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86473 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > -Carol wrote [snipped]: > > BTW, I still don't understand how Lucius got hold of the diary, which couldn't have been left in the Riddle house at the time of the > > murders. The police would have found it and realized that Tom Marvolo Riddle, the name on the binding, was not the name of the Tom Riddle who died. A little investigation would lead them to the older Tom's divorce, an unacknowledged son in an orphanage, and a certain teenage murderer. Maybe Voldemort told Lucius that it was at Hogwarts and Lucius forced Dobby to find it and bring it to him? ..... I think LV gave it to him during VWI. Lucius was a trusted lieutenant at that time, probably the highest-ranking one. I think LV gave him > > many personal belongings for safe keeping. > Carol [snipped] ....TR wrote the diary in 1943 and left Hogwarts in 1945. It's highly improbable that he carried it around during his travels from 1945-1970 while he was busy transforming himself and trying to become immortal. I think it's much more likely that he left it at Hogwarts in some secure place just before he graduated in 1945 ..... Julie: I can well imagine Voldemort entertaining a few of his most trusted cadre with tales of his early days, so as you say Lucius could well have had some idea of what he was unleashing when he planted Tom's diary on Ginny. And since presumably Malfoy Mansion is a large house & estate it makes sense that Voldemort might have kept a few things in storage there, or even had a permanent guest room, depending on how chummy he was with Lucius (didn't some noble families keep a room or suite of rooms decorated and available for visiting sovereignty back in the days of royal tours?) So while I can see this as one way Lucius might have gotten possession of some of Voldemort's possessions, I can also see another senario. Voldemort's trip to Godric's Hollow was supposed to be a quick assassination. He didn't expect the destruction of his physical body, especially by a baby. Even if he had placed a few cherished items in "safe keeping," its likely that the morning after saw a group of stunned Death-Eaters milling around the DE Central or Voldemort's own personal home mournfully wondering what to do next. How to carry on the good fight now that the great man himself is gone sort of discussion. Its quite possible that Voldemort's belongings were divided up amongst his most devoted followers (or snatched as keepsakes by those of lesser stature). Now that he's back in the flesh, he might want to round up a few things (dark artifacts, rare spell books, personal papers, his old school diary, his mum's photo, etc) Just a thought. Julie (who is amused at the thought of He-who-must-not-be-named demanding back his favorite comfy sweater and pipe) From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Dec 4 07:40:44 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 07:40:44 -0000 Subject: A strange silver instrument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86474 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" wrote: Berit: > > Sorry to disagree with you Geoff :-) But I don't think I am wrong... > The reason I am saying Snape threw the snake at Harry, is that it is > implied it was Snape that suggested to Draco he use the snake spell > against Harry (Snape whispers in Draco's ear seconds before Draco > throws his spell). It was not Draco's idea. Therefore it ultimately > is Snape that throws the snake at Harry. I also know that Lockhart > intervened in the middle of the fight, complicating things a little. > But that doesn't mean Snape's intent was not to confront Harry with a > snake to see what would happen... > Geoff: Hmmm. Then why... "'Don't move, Potter,' said Snape lazily, /clearly enjoying the sight of Harry standing motionless, eye to eye with the angry snake/, 'I'll get rid of it....'" (COS p.145 UK edition) Harry doesn't know he's a parselmouth - it only appears later when he moves towards JF-F who is under threat. In the situation I have quoted, Harry is more likely to back off and let Snape get rid of it than use a power he doesn't recognise. Geoff From derek at rhinobunny.com Thu Dec 4 08:18:29 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 00:18:29 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as a Spy and Spy!Lucius, too! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031203234029.029b72a0@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86475 At 09:00 AM 12/3/2003, Jen Reese wrote: >My theory is that Lucius turned spy after the COS incident. Yes, he >planted the diary, he was all for scaring the 'Mudbloods', perhaps >bringing some family shame on the Weasleys by using Ginny, and >closing down Hogwarts, but my guess is he had *no clue* that LV >could actually return to life through that diary. Derek: I have a hunch that Lucius has been looking out for himself all along. Like Wormtail, I think Malfoy will aid LV or betray him at the drop of a hat, all depending on which way the wind is blowing at the moment. He may also have discovered, in the years since VW1, that LV is a halfblood, and this may affect the bigotted Lucius's allegience. However he got the diary itself (perhaps he simply found it at Hogwarts years ago when he was a student there), I think he did know (or at least suspect) that there was a possibility LV could be brought back somehow through the diary. From Lucius's perspective, it must have seemed like a no-lose scenario... 1. If Ginny fails to do anything nefarious with the book, no harm done. He can get it back later. 2. If Ginny succeeds in accessing TR's memory, and causes havoc because of his manipulation, but it never goes far enough for TR to be brought back, that's okay too. The mudbloods at the school will have been terrorized. While that may not be all he hoped for, harassing the mudbloods is always worthwhile. 3. If TR succeeds (or nearly succeeds) in coming back, but is thwarted by Potter or Dumbledore, then that's just as well. One more avenue of LV's possible return to power has been thwarted, and Malfoy is that much closer to being able to become the Evil Overlord himself instead of taking orders from the half-blooded LV. And should LV still manage to later return, Lucius can claim fidelity. "I tried to bring you back through the diary, my Lord! Too bad the accursed Potter interfered!" 4. If TR fully succeeds in coming back because of the diary, Lucius is now the fair-haired boy (so to speak)! The most- favored DE who managed to bring back LV where all the others failed or didn't bother to try. Lucius wouldn't be free to pursue his own agenda now, but at least he'd be the chief underling and possible successor (assuming he would later betray LV). And of course, in any of 2, 3, or 4, there's always the likelihood that Ginny Weasley would be harmed and/or disgraced, striking a blow at the hated Arthur. Jen Reese: >He knows Harry is the One, and much as he and Snape despise "Potter", >they want him to do their dirty business and remove LV for good. [snip] >No, Lucius isn't going to take orders from anyone this time around, >especially a 'half-blood'. Yep, I think that's right on the money. I don't think Lucius is actually working with the Order in any way, though. I think he's just trying, now that LV is back, to get rid of LV to clear the way for himself, but do it in such a way that he doesn't appear to be betraying him. - Derek From carpenter_walrus at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 01:42:57 2003 From: carpenter_walrus at yahoo.com (carpenter_walrus) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 01:42:57 -0000 Subject: The diary (Was: Snape as a Spy and Spy!Lucius, too!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86476 justcarol67: Maybe Voldemort told Lucius that it was at Hogwarts and Lucius forced Dobby to find it and bring it to him? constance vigilance: I think LV gave it to him during VWI. Lucius was a trusted lieutenant at that time, probably the highest-ranking one. I think LV gave him many personal belongings for safe keeping Carpenter: I'm not so sure if I agree that Voldemort would have taken the diary out of Hogwarts. Or better phrased, I think that Young!Riddle would have left the diary behind, and most likely in the Slytherin common room. For starters, I think that Memory!Riddle said that he "left behind a diary" or some such statement. So, that would imply to me that the diary was actually left at Hogwarts, not that it was removed from the school. Actually, it also makes the most sense to leave the diary at Hogwarts, since that's where the Chamber of Secrets is located, right? Why take the diary away from the school? As for Lucius getting the diary directly from Voldemort, well, what's to say that he couldn't have found it himself. Or even better, what's to say that it was even a *real* diary? Dumbledore certainly never mentions anything to the effect of an attempt to raise Voldemort; rather, it appears that Dumbledore thinks that Lucius was trying to discredit Arthur Weasley and his Muggle Protection Act. -Carpenter- From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 11:03:05 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 11:03:05 -0000 Subject: Response to camrka re: MWPP in Slytherin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86477 I received this email from camrka at yahoo.com: BEGINNING OF EMAIL>>>> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Diana" wrote: I personally think MWPP were all in Slytherin. . . We know James was in Gryffindor. In the O.W.L.S. chapter of OOP, Ron is messing with his hair reminding Harry of "another Gryffindor Quiddich player who had once sat rumpling his hair under this very tree." i.e., James, as Harry saw him in the Pensieve. <<< No: HPFGUIDX 86478 Thinking outside the box. Is that still part of management jargon? 'Cos I've been playing at something along those lines. This was triggered by a couple of exchanges I've had recently with Geoff and his persistent, nay, worrying obsession with LotR. So don't blame me, blame him. What does almost every so-called epic have that hasn't yet appeared in HP? (Apart from the femme fatale who introduces the hero to unspeakable (yippee!) sexual practices.) The Temptation of course. The offer/realisation that power can be his for the taking. All he has to do is resist the persistent blandishments of those urging peace, love and a macrobiotic diet and step to the other side. All you need is a bit of lateral thinking. That prophecy. It says that Harry (or so it is presumed) will be Voldy's equal. We have assumed something slightly different; that he will be Voldy's equal *and opposite*. But it doesn't say that at all. Just that someone equal to the Dark Lord will come along and may defeat him. No mention of a saviour-like figure, no mention of a paragon of all that is good and virtuous, just the two of them fighting it out and there being no certainty as to who will win. A power struggle to determine who will be top dog. Now I can't see JKR ending the series with Harry as the Evil Overlord of the WW (though it would be a refreshing change from the accepted convention that good always wins), but I can see Harry going through a crisis of conscience somewhere along the way. Is this what that old duffer Dumbledore was on about when he burbled on about "choices defining us?" The Sorting Hat seemed to think that Harry was prime Slytherin material, that it would "help him to greatness." Harry rejected the offer, based on what? Innate goodness? No. An antipathy to *one* individual he took a dislike to. Before he really knew what Slytherin (or Gryffindor) were all about. But that doesn't mean that the Slytherin-worthy potential has gone away; it's still there lying in wait, ready to surface if the opportunity arises. And I expect it to surface. (Has it started already with the casting of the Crucio! curse?) Harry's behaviour in the last book is a case-book example of teenage rebellion and bloody-mindedness; why should it not continue, or indeed become more pronounced? There's been a stuttering on/off thread wondering who will be the next to betray the Order. This isn't the first time I've placed Harry at the top of the list of 'those most likely to' as a result of his anger, angst and resentment against those who seem to be manipulating him. Eventual remorse and reconciliation with his finer instincts are pretty much a foregone conclusion, but while he's away he might do an awful lot of damage. The prime target will, of course, be Dumbledore. Well, you didn't expect him to survive, did you? Kneasy From liz at studylink.com Thu Dec 4 11:02:39 2003 From: liz at studylink.com (liz) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 12:02:39 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bang! You're dead. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86479 Laura, emerging from the avalanche of leftovers and holiday visitors, said: > > This business of the Unforgivables intrigues me. Why these three? > There are lots of ways to hurt people and kill them. You don't even > have to make it look like an accident the way one recent post > suggested (i.e., Accio'ing something sharp into the victim's back- > nice one!). And when you think about it, AK is inconsistent with > the other 2 Unforgivables in that it's quick, painless and dignified > (as it were). The person is alive one moment and dead the next-no > muss, no fuss. But Imperio and Crucio are ways to inflict real, > lasting damage, with effects that can be both mental and physical. > I can see why those would be beyond the pale, but I don't know why > AK is worse than any other form of intentional killing. Sure, > there's no known defense, but the theoretical availability of a > defense against other forms of lethal attack doesn't mean the victim > can use it at the necessary moment. Dead is dead, after all. now Liz: I think that your quote 'The person is alive one moment and dead the next-no muss, no fuss' shows exactly why the AK is so awful and therefore classified as Unforgivable. Classifying it as an Unforgivable is an effective method of regulation, rather than only judgement. It's so EASY to just snuff someone out with it, one flick of the wrist and the person is gone forever. Even a society as morally dubious as the WW recognises the necessity of creating a huge taboo around such an easy method of killing. People get angry enough to kill all the time, some of them do it, but I'm sure many don't because it's just not that easy. Imagine if no one had to run for a knife or a gun, there was no blood, no choking, no mark on the body. All you had to do was raise your wand and say a few words. I'm sure the highways of the world would be littered with dead bodies! Another reason is because it serves no purpose other than to cause death, which makes the spell in and of itself quite evil. AK is a weapon, and I think the gun analogy is the best one to relate it to the RW. Although I know some people like guns and think they're fun for sports, basically the only purpose of a gun is to maim and kill, whether it be a person or a duck. An axe will kill you just as well, but it's a quite a bit less efficient, and an axe has purposes other than causing death. That's why some people think it's wise to limit the availability of guns, as opposed to axes. I don't think anyone would argue that a murder is more heinous when committed with a gun/AK, but it is a lot easier. You can't stop a wizard with a wand using AK the way you can (try to) stop people having possession of guns, so calling the use of it 'Unforgivable' is a pretty strong psychological deterrent. Of course it wouldn't make a difference to someone who was ESE anyway, but hopefully it would to the rest of us. As for it not being as bad as the other two, I'd rather be imperioed or crucioed (but not into insanity) and live to tell the tale any day! Liz From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 12:06:34 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 12:06:34 -0000 Subject: The diary and Lucius's many reasons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86480 Carpenter writes: > As for Lucius getting the diary directly from Voldemort, well, what's > to say that he couldn't have found it himself. Or even better, what's > to say that it was even a *real* diary? > > Dumbledore certainly never mentions anything to the effect of an > attempt to raise Voldemort; rather, it appears that Dumbledore thinks > that Lucius was trying to discredit Arthur Weasley and his Muggle > Protection Act. I think Dumbledore was "not going to tickle a sleeping dragon", as the school motto goes, by avoiding the real reason the diary was planted with Ginny Weasley by Lucius Malfoy at Hogwarts. At least Dumbledore was not going to address those issues with Lucius Malfoy in front of Harry. If Voldemort himself had given the diary to Lucius, or at least instructed him where to find it, I would question why the diary wasn't planted with another student much earlier. And the answers to this question give some insight as to why the diary was introduced to Hogwarts when it was. Let's suppose two different scenarios. Voldemort gives the diary to Lucius to use at a future date OR Voldemort's diary is siezed by a different zealous supporter immediately after his downfall. If the latter is true, than Lucius either searches for or stumbles upon this diary at some time. If he had found it years earlier, then why did he wait so long to plant it inside Hogwarts? Especially with his own son present at Hogwarts while all this is going on? Or maybe it could be argued that he might have just managed to locate the diary after a long search and this was the first chance he had to send it to school with a student? I would answer that he chose that SPECIFIC time to send the diary to Hogwarts for several reasons. Regardless of how Lucius ended up with the diary, he purposely planted it at Hogwarts in order for Riddle to "carry on Salazar Slytherin's noble work" by ridding the school of muggle-born and half-blood wizards, but that is just one of many big reasons for Lucius to do what he did. There were hugely exciting 'bonus' opportunities to get more out of the diary than just the scouring of Hogwarts of muggle-born wizards. And all of those bonuses were equally rewarding to Lucius. The first bonus was his idea to plant the diary on Ginny Weasley. With this act, Lucius could cause great injury to the Weasleys (Ginny's death) plus bring shame, ridicule and possibly even criminal punishment (pro-muggles accused of killing muggle-borns) upon the Weasleys. The following scandal might even have toppled Arthur's Muggle-Protection Act and ruined it from ever being passed. I'm sure Lucius was also aware that Ginny's brother was Harry Potter's best friend. Lucius couldn't have picked a more bang- for-his-buck target than Ginny Weasley. The second bonus was the fact that Voldemort could, essentially, be 'reborn' in a new, strong, youthful body. His master would be back and the war against muggles and basically everyone else NOT a Voldemort supporter would begin again. I wouldn't have put it past old Lucius to wonder if he could exert more personal influence on a young Tom Riddle than the old, incredibly corrupted Voldemort. I am assuming, of course, that Lucius was privvy to this aspect of the diary. If he wasn't then I wouldn't be that surprised, honestly. The third bonus was the very possible death of Harry Potter and perhaps many, if not all, of Harry Potter's friends and allies. A large basilisk which kills people with a look was going to be running loose around the school, and Lucius knew (from Draco) that Harry did do quite a bit of off-hours and off-limits wandering around Hogwarts last year. So, Lucius was more than likely hoping that Harry would run into the basilisk and drop dead. The fourth bonus was the removal of Albus Dumbledore as headmaster of Hogwarts. Lucius was overjoyed to deliver the Order of Suspension to Dumbledore. Not only would Dumbledore's absence allow Riddle more of a free reign, but it would 'hurt' Dumbledore's standing in the WW and cause Dumbledore distress. Fortunately for the good guys, it seems evident that Lucius (and Riddle) do not know Dumbledore very well. :) And Lucius was probably hoping that chaos would reign to the point of Dumbledore's permanent removal as headmaster. I wonder if Lucius ever found out about or even suspected Riddle's change of plans once he began to come out of the diary? Because Riddle ditched the age-old plans of Salazar Slytherin just so he could meet and then murder Harry. Riddle really got his panties in a twist about his former future fate as revealed to him by Ginny. I suppose if Riddle had succeeded in killing Harry he could always have resumed terrorizing the school and murdering all those students he didn't think were worthy to study magic. One more thought. I wonder how Lucius would have felt if Draco had mouthed off to a returned-to-the-flesh Riddle (which seemed likely to me, frankly) resulting in Riddle flaying Draco alive? Whatever his motivations and grievances against muggle-borns and the Weasleys, what father puts a sociopathic murderer at the same school with his mouthy, no-common-sense son? Not a bright one. Diana L. From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 12:44:19 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 12:44:19 -0000 Subject: Choices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86481 > The Temptation of course. > The offer/realisation that power can be his for the taking. All he has to do is resist the persistent blandishments of those urging > peace, love and a macrobiotic diet and step to the other side. > > All you need is a bit of lateral thinking. > That prophecy. It says that Harry (or so it is presumed) will be > Voldy's equal. We have assumed something slightly different; that he will be Voldy's equal *and opposite*. > But it doesn't say that at all. Just that someone equal to the Dark Lord will come along and may defeat him. No mention of a saviour-like figure, no mention of a paragon of all that is good and virtuous, just the two of them fighting it out and there being no certainty as to who will win. A power struggle to determine who will be top dog. >> Now I can't see JKR ending the series with Harry as the Evil Overlord of the WW (though it would be a refreshing change from the accepted convention that good always wins), but I can see Harry going through a crisis of conscience somewhere along the way. > > Is this what that old duffer Dumbledore was on about when he burbled on about "choices defining us?" > The Sorting Hat seemed to think that Harry was prime Slytherin > material, that it would "help him to greatness." Harry rejected the offer, based on what? Innate goodness? No. An antipathy to *one* > individual he took a dislike to. Before he really knew what Slytherin (or Gryffindor) were all about. But that doesn't mean that the Slytherin-worthy potential has gone away; it's still there lying in wait, ready to surface if the opportunity arises. And I expect it to surface. (Has it started already with the casting of the Crucio! > curse?) Harry's behaviour in the last book is a case-book example of teenage rebellion and bloody-mindedness; why should it not continue, or indeed become more pronounced? > There's been a stuttering on/off thread wondering who will be the next to betray the Order. This isn't the first time I've placed Harry at the top of the list of 'those most likely to' as a result of his anger, angst and resentment against those who seem to be manipulating him. > Eventual remorse and reconciliation with his finer instincts are pretty much a foregone conclusion, but while he's away he might do an awful lot of damage. > The prime target will, of course, be Dumbledore. > Well, you didn't expect him to survive, did you? > > Kneasy Actually, Harry didn't reject the choice of being in Slytherin simply because he disliked Malfoy, who was just placed in Slytherin earlier that evening. Harry rejected it because Hagrid had told him in SS/PS that "There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin. You-Know-Who was one." We can accept this as an exaggeration on Hagrid's part, but his comment made a huge impression upon Harry. Harry would definitely not want to be in the same house as the wizard who murdered his parents. Also, think about what the sorting hat said to Harry. It actually said "..So where should I put you?" and Harry thought back "Not Slytherin, not Slytherin." The very fact it asked Harry at all tells me that Harry's choice of any house BUT Slytherin was the hat's way of confirming that Harry truly belonged in Gryffindor. I agree with you that Harry will probably undergo some extreme rebellious behavior and mess up a few times, but I can't see him ever being truly tempted to join Voldemort's side. If Harry does cause harm to the order, I would guess that it would be unintentional. But, however unintentional, the damage could be severe. And I'm undecided on if Dumbledore will survive. Sometimes I think he will and sometimes I think he won't. But that's a whole other topic. Diana L. From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 13:49:45 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 13:49:45 -0000 Subject: Choices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86482 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith wrote: > Thinking outside the box. > Is that still part of management jargon? > 'Cos I've been playing at something along those lines. > This was triggered by a couple of exchanges I've had recently with > Geoff and his persistent, nay, worrying obsession with LotR. So don't blame me, blame him. > > What does almost every so-called epic have that hasn't yet appeared in HP? (Apart from the femme fatale who introduces the hero to unspeakable (yippee!) sexual practices.) > Laura: Dream on, Kneasy. Kneasy: > The Temptation of course. > The offer/realisation that power can be his for the taking. All he has to do is resist the persistent blandishments of those urging > peace, love and a macrobiotic diet and step to the other side. Laura: Yikes-a Kneasy/Geoff alliance? This worries me. :-) In an epic, does the hero always have to be tempted? What about heroic (or at least admirable)figures in an epic who aren't necessarily the hero of the story who resist temptation, like Aragorn and Faromir? What about heroes who give in to some form of temptation but are heroic anyhow, like Lancelot? Yeah, Harry may act in some fashion on his anger towards DD, but I don't see that as being tempted towards the dark side. Harry doesn't show any interest in power for its own sake at any time during the books; indeed, he shows a consistent reluctance to plumb the depths of his powers. He might well have had the ability to kill Sirius in the Shack (or Bella in the MoM) but he couldn't bring himself to do it. I'd say this is due to a combination of a strong moral foundation and some fear of what he might actually be capable of. He remembers the consequences of unintended magic in the RW and has learned in the WW that he can do startling things when under duress, so he doesn't feel that his magical abilities are entirely under his control and that scares him. This would differentiate him from Tom Riddle, who many of us theorize was delighted to find out that he had magical powers and immediately began exploring their possibilities. Harry sees himself as a human being first; Tom sees himself as a wizard first. In becoming LV, Tom leaves behind his humanness and gives himself over entirely to the power of his wizardry. But, hey, Kneasy, thanks for bringing a bit of sunshine to our day! From liz at studylink.com Thu Dec 4 12:53:03 2003 From: liz at studylink.com (liz) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 13:53:03 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Choices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86483 Kneasy said: >> The Sorting Hat seemed to think that Harry was prime Slytherin >> material, that it would "help him to greatness." Harry rejected > the offer, based on what? Innate goodness? No. An antipathy to *one* >> individual he took a dislike to. Before he really knew what > Slytherin (or Gryffindor) were all about. But that doesn't mean that > the Slytherin-worthy potential has gone away; it's still there lying > in wait, ready to surface if the opportunity arises. And I expect it > to surface. (Has it started already with the casting of the Crucio! >> curse?) Harry's behaviour in the last book is a case-book example > of teenage rebellion and bloody-mindedness; why should it not > continue, or indeed become more pronounced? Then Diana said: > Actually, Harry didn't reject the choice of being in Slytherin > simply because he disliked Malfoy, who was just placed in Slytherin > earlier that evening. Harry rejected it because Hagrid had told him > in SS/PS that "There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who > wasn't in Slytherin. You-Know-Who was one." We can accept this as > an exaggeration on Hagrid's part, but his comment made a huge > impression upon Harry. Harry would definitely not want to be in the > same house as the wizard who murdered his parents. > > Also, think about what the sorting hat said to Harry. It actually > said "..So where should I put you?" and Harry thought back "Not > Slytherin, not Slytherin." The very fact it asked Harry at all > tells me that Harry's choice of any house BUT Slytherin was the > hat's way of confirming that Harry truly belonged in Gryffindor. Liz replies: Another way to look at this would be that both Harry and the Hat have an awareness of his Slytherin potential. Do you think Ron or Hermione sat there and thought 'not Slytherin, not Slytherin'? I think Ron says earlier that if the hat put him in Slytherin he'd turn around and go home; it is a ludicrous idea to him. Not to Harry. Harry then spends a good amount of time in CoS worrying that he is the Heir of Slytherin and that he ought to be there, not Gryffindor. He doesn't want to be, but he obviously thinks it's a real possibility. Diana again: > I agree with you that Harry will probably undergo some extreme > rebellious behavior and mess up a few times, but I can't see him > ever being truly tempted to join Voldemort's side. If Harry does > cause harm to the order, I would guess that it would be > unintentional. But, however unintentional, the damage could be > severe. Liz replies: I don't think that Kneasy was positing that Harry would be tempted to join Voldemort, but that rather as he develops his power and awareness he may be tempted by power itself. I imagine he would still want to get rid of V and friends, but he would no longer be subscribing to DD's benevolent philosophy. Oh, it could be a slippery slope!: 'no one can do what I can, no one else HAS to do it, no one cares about me anyway, the WW has always basically treated me like crap, scape-goating and degrading me or indulging in annoying hero-worship, but never with a thought to the real person. Why should I care?! Harry is looking after one person now - HARRY! Watch out world!' Enter Dirty!Harry. Kneasy said: > There's been a stuttering on/off thread wondering who will be the next > to betray the Order. This isn't the first time I've placed Harry at > the top of the list of 'those most likely to' as a result of his anger, > angst and resentment against those who seem to be manipulating him. > Eventual remorse and reconciliation with his finer instincts are pretty > much a foregone conclusion, but while he's away he might do an awful > lot of damage. I like this idea and think it's a real possibility. I fervently hope no one else is going to be a traitor, that would just be, well, kind of boring really, or annoyingly devastating. Making someone like Lupin or McGonagal evil just seems like an unnecessary kick-in-the-teeth emotionally for a stupid plot device. It would completely change the nature of PoA, if we take Lupin for example. I think it works in the arc of one book, as with Moody in GoF, but the readers are only emotionally invested with Moody for one day/three weeks (depending on how fast you read), so you can appreciate the trick, re-read the book, wonder at the clues. JK has had us emotionally invested with Lupin for what, five years?! Re-reading PoA would not be a pleasant experience. Naaahh, I'm with Kneasy. A morally wavering Harry struggling with his inner demons (snakes??) would be much more interesting. Liz From spang_b at yahoo.co.in Thu Dec 4 14:07:23 2003 From: spang_b at yahoo.co.in (spang_b) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 14:07:23 -0000 Subject: A strange silver instrument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86484 Hi, Thanks for the answers! It's really amazing to get so many replies. Anyway, assuming that the splitting of snakes in that instrument is supposed to show that Voldemort has not possessed Harry, isn't it strange and significant that Harry is represented by a snake? That the image should split into TWO snakes and not say a snake and a lion? And that it should be ONE snake before it splits into two? As for Dumbledore's feelings, I think that he nods with 'grim satisfaction' etc, is because he's been making predictions about Harry all the year round isn't it? As Mrs.weasly says somewhat later," he has been expecting something like this to happen." And the entire guard duty of the Order was designed keeping this expectation in mind. So he would be satisfied that his premonitions have come true. But have you all noticed that this pyschic connection between Harry and Voldemort has certain parameters, so to say. When Harry truly connects with Voldemort, he becomes Voldemort. As against when Voldemort is just forcefully entering into his mind, like putting into Harry's head images of Sirius' torturing. (Infact, Harry could have detected this difference and after Hermione's arguments, stayed at school. )But has this anything to do with the splitting of snakes? Bye Adi From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Dec 4 14:22:54 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 14:22:54 -0000 Subject: The diary (Was: Snape as a Spy and Spy!Lucius, too!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86485 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan Miller" wrote: > I think LV gave it to him during VWI. Lucius was a trusted lieutenant > at that time, probably the highest-ranking one. I think LV gave him > many personal belongings for safe keeping. My guess is that these > things are being stored below the floorboards in the Malfoy parlor. I > think Lucius was also given the control of the Riddle house to manage > under the guise of the Rich Owner Who Needs Tax Advantages, but I do > not think that the diary would have been stored in the Riddle House. > > The diary was always a worst-case backup plan. And while I love the > theory that Lucius is a spy, I really think that Lucius did know that > the diary contained the essence of LV. But he thought that Diary! Tom > would be content to kill Muggles. Jen R: I definitely agree that Lucius is the owner of the Riddle House and is in possession of LV's things, but not because LV trusted him or gave them to him. LV's biggest secret is that he is Tom Riddle the half-blood and he's not going to willingly give this information to a DE who could turn on him, and certainly not someone like Lucius with money, power and pureblood status. Somehow, and I tend toward a connection with the seedy underworld of Knockturn Alley and lots of galleons, Lucius came by the diary and learned of the connection between LV and Tom Riddle. When the circumstances were right, i.e. he's on the Board of Governors at Hogwarts, the Muggle Protection act is cramping his style, and Fudge is turning to him as often as DD for advice, Lucius decides to hatch his plan. He know's *only* that Tom Riddle can possess people through the diary and open the COS, possibly killing the person in the process, but not necessarily bringing Riddle to life (sort of like when LV is possessing Quirrell). Finding out the extent of the diary's power is shocking to him and he realizes there may be other ways for LV to return. So Lucius covers his bases, he does some research, locates the Riddle House and purchases it--LV wouldn't know of that. Perhaps he obtains some other possessions of LV's. He's prepared for LV's return and ultimate downfall. Jen R. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Dec 4 14:45:39 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 14:45:39 -0000 Subject: Snape as a Spy and Spy!Lucius, too! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86486 Jen R. wrote: > > Who else planted the seed of "obtaining the Prophecy" in LV's ear, > > luring Harry Potter to the MOM, and having LV outed to the WW? Who > > was the one telling all the DE's "not to kill Harry" in the DOM even > > though the other children were expendable in his eyes? Carol wrote: > You're also right that he is the only one who could have informed LV > that the way to lure Harry to the MoM was through Sirius, but the > source of that information wasn't Snape, it was Kreacher. Jen R: Actually, what I meant was Lucius was the one who suggested that course of action to LV in the first place, "Let's get the Prophecy first!" I believe Snape is the one who overheard the Prophecy in the Hog's Head. Snape and Dumbledore worked out the elaborate plan explained in MAGIC DISHWASHER (#81010), to lure LV to the MOM and 'out' LVto the WW, then Lucius is brought in to 'plant' the idea of obtaining the Prophecy with LV. Of course, things went awry when LV started entering Harry's mind trying to lure him to the DOM instead. Carol: >I don't > think Snape was in on Lucius's little scheme to succeed Voldemort, at > least not with any real intention of acting on it, but I have no doubt > that he used it to his advantage. (However highly Lucius may think of > himself, Snape is undoubtedly more cunning and more intelligent, and > has the advantage of knowing occlumency and legilmency.) > > The problem for them both is that their link is broken. Is Snape going > to maintain appearances by helping to break them out of Azkaban? I > seriously doubt it. He doesn't want the DEs to be free. Will he be > forced to work with Draco and Narcissa now? Surely he can't blow his > cover and be revealed as, in essence, a traitor to his own house. Jen R.: Hmmmm, I don't know what Snape knows--any surprise there? I agree with you that Snape is the more cunning and intelligent. During this War at least, Snape's military loyalty is with Dumbledore, but he has his own prejudices and beliefs as well. As to who Sanpe will work with next--I think the link is broken, as you say, and that Snape is in grave danger. From rredordead at aol.com Thu Dec 4 14:46:56 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 14:46:56 -0000 Subject: Snape Poisioning the Longbottoms? Was: Is Agnes Snape's Mother? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86487 > > Mandy said: > > It wouldn't be hard at all. A boarding school teacher has time off every week just like every other employed person. It seems to me > > very easy for a wizard to jump back and forth from Hogsmead to St. Mungos in a matter of seconds. I'm still not convinced of this > > theory yet but I find it very interesting. > Carol said: > I don't see any evidence for time off every week. Snape never leaves > Hogwarts during weekends or even during the Christmas holiday until > OoP. Mandy here again: There is certainly no canon for Snape having any time off during the week, but he does seem to have substantial responsibilities off the Hogwarts grounds. We do know Dumbledore has Snape working with Voldemort in some way, possibly through Lucius Malfoy. Snape must have to leave on a somewhat regular basis to accomplish that task, although I imagine some communication could be done through sticking his head through the Floo Network without actually leaving the school. So let's suppose Snape leaves the grounds to visit Lucius Malfoy and stops by St. Mungo's to see his mum on his way back to school, something Dumbledore would not begrudge anyone. Also, I don't think Snape would only go to visit his mum in hospital just during the school holidays. I have faith that he has a 'small' soft spot in his black heart somewhere. Yeah it's very weak, but logistically possible IMO. Mandy From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Dec 4 12:30:07 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 12:30:07 -0000 Subject: Choices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86488 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith wrote: Kneasy: > Thinking outside the box. > Is that still part of management jargon? > 'Cos I've been playing at something along those lines. > This was triggered by a couple of exchanges I've had recently with > Geoff and his persistent, nay, worrying obsession with LotR. So don't > blame me, blame him. > Geoff: Nah, not me guv. I'm not a stirrer, just Geoff. I have a feeling that there are a lot of people around who have a persistent, nay, worrying obsession with this boy wizard guy.... Let me rebut your suggestion that I eat, sleep and drink Tolkien. In earlier days when I had a bit more time and wasn't coping with family growing up and their teenage angst, I used to read LOTR quite frequently. So I have a pretty good grasp of the story - and incidentally of the films. I suppose any story which is in or partly in a fantasy dimension will have echoes of other stories. We have looked at various comparisons between the books because they may focus our thinking a bit more on Harry. Sometimes a remark is made and my reaction is "What did so-and- so do in a similar situation in Tolkien?" Perhaps I should start trawling through Narnia, or the Brisingamen books of Alan Garner? We can speculate on Harry until the cows come home - we have already to the tune of 86000 posts and more. At the end, some of us will say "Yippee, I was right" and some will be surprised by the turn of events. "What if..." situations are great fun as long as we remember that we are in the fictional Wizarding World and the real world of Bush and Blair and sealing-wax, of cabbages and kings is waiting to pounce when we log off. Anyway, what would Kneasy do if we weren't around to annoy him by disagreeing with him? Thought - what about a thread suggesting that Kneasy is the Heir of Slytherin? There's an idea now.... Geoff ADMIN Note: Please be sure that any responses posted to this list relating to speculation or comparisons with LOTR or other books, discuss those issues with respect to the Harry Potter books. General discussion of speculation, LOTR or fantasy, and the respite it provides us from the real world, should be directed to our sister list, HPfGU-OTChatter. Thanks! From kcawte at ntlworld.com Thu Dec 4 23:33:38 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 15:33:38 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] AK and Power References: Message-ID: <005001c3babf$1d4cacf0$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 86489 > Laura, emerging from the avalanche of leftovers and holiday visitors, said: > > > > This business of the Unforgivables intrigues me. Why these three? > > There are lots of ways to hurt people and kill them. You don't even > > have to make it look like an accident the way one recent post > > suggested (i.e., Accio'ing something sharp into the victim's back- > > nice one!). And when you think about it, AK is inconsistent with > > the other 2 Unforgivables in that it's quick, painless and dignified > > (as it were). The person is alive one moment and dead the next-no > > muss, no fuss. > > now Liz: > > I think that your quote 'The person is alive one moment and dead the next-no > muss, no fuss' shows exactly why the AK is so awful and therefore classified > as Unforgivable. ... It's so EASY to just snuff someone out with it, one flick of the wrist and the person is gone forever. K I wonder though - is the AK as easy and simple as people are making out. Cruciatus after all turns out not to have been. To cast that you apparently have to have a strong desire to want someone to suffer. Perhaps for AK to work you have to have a real and strong desire for your victim to die - not the kind of brief, 'drop dead, you *&$%' thoughts that cross your head when you're cut up by some idiot in a white van or when your battling the crowds at Christmas in a shopping centre (although if I could turn them all into flobberworms that'd be great) but a real, deep-down desire to have your victim die (possibly this is linked to the 'seeing death' thing, after all if you don't fully understand the implications of it maybe it wouldn't work). Anyway my point being - perhaps most of our heroes couldn't use it anyway and those who could due to circumstances (I fully believe Sirius *and* Remus could have AK'd Peter - I suspect they'd have felt guilty about it later, which is what separates them from the bad guys) *shouldn't* because it would give them a brief taste of the power and corruption of Dark Magic and lead to their eventual downfall. I think power (be it magical, political or whatever) and its ability to corrupt are a strong theme in the books - Malfoy uses his wealth and political influence to put himself above the law, Dumbledore turned down a Political appointment but the person who took it (Fudge) is more concerned with keeping that power than telling the WW an uncomfortable truth, I don't think I have to explain Umbridge as part of this theme - it's somewhat self-evident, Percy (possibly, if he's not the dashing undercover hero we all know he really is ) wants to use his career to drag himself out of the gutter and make himself someone people look up to (I know the Weasleys aren't actually gutterrats but that's probably how he sees them a lot of the time), Peter, alright he says he joined Voldemort out of fear, but I don't entirely believe that (he did spend over a year spying on the Potters), I think part of it was that he was shown that instead of being the tagalong, clinging to the coattails of his smarter, richer, more charismatic friends he could be *someone* in the DEs, people would fear *him* (see how *well* that worked out for him(. K "The Loudest Noise Comes From The Electric Minerva." From rredordead at aol.com Thu Dec 4 15:35:06 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 15:35:06 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Army In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86490 Carol wrote: > The only classes that Gryffindor and the Slytherins have together are Potions and Care of Magical Creatures. (They have Herbology with the Hufflepuffs.) The best bit of evidence that they don't have DADA with the Slytherins is the class where Neville's boggart is Snape. Can you imagine Slytherins' reaction if they had been there? But if you count the number of boggarts, it's eight, not counting Lupin's. Harry and Hermione don't get to confront their boggarts but everyone else apparently does. That adds up to ten students: the five Gryffindor boys, Hermione, Lavender, Parvati, and two unnamed students that assume are girls. Mandy here: You and Birit are absolutely right. Damn that movie contamination! It really confuses me at times, not that that is unusual. ;-) I suppose the films just like to have all the principle characters in class together to show their interaction within the limited screen time they have. But back to the books: I don't think Umbridge would change her curriculum to suit the different houses. The Slytherins would have received the exact same classes as everyone else. Umbridge is not IMO working for LV and has no advantage in advancing the Slytherins, as a group, above all others. However, I can see her selecting a special group for her Inquisitorial Squad from the children who actively hate Harry Potter, her nemesis in the book. Draco Malfoy and gang is the logical choice, the fact that they are Slytherins doesn't have anything to do with it, they could have just as easily been Ravenclaws IMO. Also I have always assumed that the Slytherins, or more accurately the children from Dark Magical families would have recieved training in Defense Against the Dark Arts as well as performing the Dark Arts at home. Growing up in a Dark family it would have become a matter of survival for a kid who had brothers and sisters who would have delighted in hexing their siblings, and good defense skills would be a necessity. Images of The Addams Family keep popping into my head, where one child is constantly trying to kill the other and he or she would spend their life creating wonderful ways of extracting revenge. I imagine the Blacks, Malfoys and Lestranges must have a lot of time in St. Mungos when they were all young children. ;-) With the exception of the three Unforgivable Curses I don't think the Dark Arts themselves are illegal, it's the way they are used that makes them against the law. A lot of the magic used in Dark Arts is not Dark itself, it's the way it is used that taints it black. So I imagine, behind the closed doors of the Malfoy Mansion, Lucius and Narcissa have instructed Draco in numerous Dark Arts (as well as their defenses) that we have not yet seen because Draco is simply not powerful or old enough to use them effectively. Many Magic spells require extensive training and the focus of thought, energy and intention. Harry demonstrated that with his ineffectual Cruciatus Curse on Bellatrix. As the books move the characters in to adulthood, at 16, 17 and 18 years of age, I think we will see a big shift in the scale and type of magic coming from Draco Malfoy and of course Harry Potter. Mandy From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Dec 4 15:51:58 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 15:51:58 -0000 Subject: Choices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86491 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, liz wrote: > > Liz replies: > > I don't think that Kneasy was positing that Harry would be tempted to join > Voldemort, but that rather as he develops his power and awareness he may be > tempted by power itself. I imagine he would still want to get rid of V and > friends, but he would no longer be subscribing to DD's benevolent > philosophy. Oh, it could be a slippery slope!: 'no one can do what I can, no > one else HAS to do it, no one cares about me anyway, the WW has always > basically treated me like crap, scape-goating and degrading me or indulging > in annoying hero-worship, but never with a thought to the real person. Why > should I care?! Harry is looking after one person now - HARRY! Watch out > world!' Enter Dirty!Harry. > > Naaahh, I'm with Kneasy. A morally wavering Harry struggling with his inner > demons (snakes??) would be much more interesting. Kneasy: Thank you. You've got the essence of my argument in one. It is *power* that corrupts and Harry suspects, indeed is told, that he has it. How you use the power you have is your choice; it can be for good or ill, but power hates a vacuum, it will be exercised. "Just have to get rid of these obstacles, Voldy, Malfoy, DD if he doesn't behave himself and there'll be nobody to tell me I must do this, that or the other. Free! At last!" What a temptation, especially for a put-upon teenager. Laura raises doubts: > Yeah, Harry may act in some fashion on his anger towards DD, but I don't see that as being tempted towards the dark side. Harry doesn't show any interest in power for its own sake at any time during the books; indeed, he shows a consistent reluctance to plumb the depths of his powers. He might well have had the ability to kill Sirius in the Shack (or Bella in the MoM) but he couldn't bring himself to do it. I'd say this is due to a combination of a strong moral foundation and some fear of what he might actually be capable of. This would differentiate him from Tom Riddle, who many of us theorize was delighted to find out that he had magical powers and immediately began exploring their possibilities. Harry sees himself as a human being first; Tom sees himself as a wizard first. In becoming LV, Tom leaves behind his humanness and gives himself over entirely to the power of his wizardry. > Kneasy: Dark side? No, not necessarily - it's Harry's side that Harry is interested in. Since when has he had a free choice about what Harry is and what Harry does? Now he is coming into his powers; he will soon be a force to be reckoned with in the WW. Up until now he has been a child, but he is growing up. Fairly soon (if not already) he will start to argue that he can make his own decisions, thank you very much. When he does, watch out. Sure he was frightened about his magical powers in the earlier books, who wouldn't be in his position. He wasn't brought up in the WW, he can't have the casual acceptance of the power of magic of someone for whom it is an everyday tool. No-one has sat him down and explained what being a wizard is really about. He's part intruder, part freak - The Boy Who Lived. Famous - for something he can't remember and couldn't influence anyway. With all the weight of DD's expectations on his shoulders. This strong moral foundation you mention - where did it come from? The Dursleys perhaps? Morality has had a very minor part in his up-bringing; what he has learned are the basic survival tactics for a hostile world, both at Privet Drive and at Hogwarts. So far they've worked. Why not keep on trusting them? DD has just dumped another load onto him - "It's Voldy or you. It is ordained." Harry doesn't want it. He'll fight it. And he will soon have enough power to to be formidable in his stubborness. Tom Riddle, now. How old do you think he was before he realised how powerful he was? About Harry's age perhaps? Couldn't be much younger, he too was brought up outside the WW and had to learn everything from scratch after entering Hogwarts. The parallels between Harry and Tom are too many and too obvious to be coincidence. IMO Harry is about to reach the point where Tom made his choice and Harry too will have to choose. Don't be surprised if he makes a break for freedom and tries for independence. Won't work; we know that, but it will cause massive tremors to Dumbledore's plan. May even cause a few casualties, DD among them. Kneasy From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Dec 4 15:52:50 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 15:52:50 -0000 Subject: Bang! You're dead. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86492 > Carol: > That's the crucial question for me also, the one I've been trying to answer here. Why are they unforgiveable, and, if so, unjustified under any circumstances if we're going to maintain the distinction between Good and Evil that JKR so often mentions in her interviews.< I don't think it's a coincidence that the three curses deprive one of three basic human rights: life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. (The Declaration of Independence has roots in the Scottish Enlightenment, so this analysis does not require JKR to have American values.) Carol: > What I need and don't have is an example of Avada Kedavra used as self-defense. < Perhaps the relationship between being unblockable and being unforgiveable is that AK *can't* be used in self-defense. Maybe you have to perceive your target as at your mercy in order to work the spell. That would explain why Impostor!Moody is quite sure that a room full of fourth years couldn't make AK work on him, why it's so astonishing that a baby could defeat the AK, and the significance of the chapter title, "The Only One He Ever Feared." Perhaps Voldemort fails to kill Dumbledore despite shooting several supposedly unblockable AK's because Voldemort fears Dumbledore so much that he can't convince himself that Dumbledore is at his mercy, even when he, Voldemort, has a clear shot. Pippin From rredordead at aol.com Thu Dec 4 16:40:58 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 16:40:58 -0000 Subject: The diary and Lucius's many reasons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86493 Diana wrote: > I would answer that he chose that SPECIFIC time to send the diary to Hogwarts for several reasons. > The first bonus was his idea to plant the diary on Ginny Weasley. > With this act, Lucius could cause great injury to the Weasleys > (Ginny's death) plus bring shame, ridicule and possibly even > criminal punishment (pro-muggles accused of killing muggle-borns) > upon the Weasleys. I'm sure Lucius was also aware that Ginny's brother was > Harry Potter's best friend. Lucius couldn't have picked a more bang-for-his-buck target than Ginny Weasley. > The second bonus was the fact that Voldemort could, essentially, > be 'reborn' in a new, strong, youthful body. I wouldn't have put it past old Lucius to wonder if he could exert more personal influence on a young Tom Riddle than the old, incredibly corrupted Voldemort. Mandy here: Interesting post Diana, it got me thinking, but this still doesn't answer the question of why the diary was used when it was, and not earlier? Why not give it Charlie, Bill, Percy or Ron? The effect on Arthur, his family and the muggle-borns at Hogwarts would have been the same. When the Weasley boys were at school they were also young, virile humans perfect for LV to regenerate into. What make Ginny the better choice? She is certainly not any more malleable at 12 than her brothers were. Did LV or Lucius have a reason to choose a female? If so I can't imagine why that was, unless Ginny is holding a secret yet to be discovered, which couldn't be surprising knowing JKR. ;-) I agree with Harry Potter being Ginny's brothers best friend being an advantage and target. Lucius knew the Harry was going to start Hogwarts in the same year as his son, so waiting could be to his advantage. Especially if Lucius knows there is some connection between Harry and LV. Perhaps another advantage would be to expose Harry as the possible Heir of Slytherins and ruining his reputation as the savior of the WW. But if Lucius is privy to the information there are many easier ways of letting that bombshell drop. And again why Ginny? Why not use Ron? He's closer to Harry Diana wrote: > One more thought. I wonder how Lucius would have felt if Draco had > mouthed off to a returned-to-the-flesh Riddle (which seemed likely > to me, frankly) resulting in Riddle flaying Draco alive? Whatever > his motivations and grievances against muggle-borns and the > Weasleys, what father puts a sociopathic murderer at the same school with his mouthy, no-common-sense son? Not a bright one. Mandy again: I don't think a regenerated Tom Riddle would have stayed at the school for very long. So unless Draco met him on his way out the front door on his way to the Forbidden Forest. Although Draco doesn't seem to have the best of luck does he. Mandy From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Thu Dec 4 16:49:01 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 10:49:01 -0600 Subject: A spell question. Message-ID: <000001c3ba86$867d79e0$02ec79a5@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 86494 Iggy here: I was just doing some research for a project I'm working on, and found this definition an a "Latin to English Translator": reduco: to lead back, bring back, return. This leads me to wonder how the "Reducto" spell in OotP would cause tables and such to pretty much implode on themselves. Any ideas? Iggy McSnurd From rredordead at aol.com Thu Dec 4 16:50:43 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 16:50:43 -0000 Subject: Salazar Slytherin's descendants (Was Re: A strange silver instrument) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86495 > Carol: > Also it's the *bone* of the father (which makes sense considering that he's trying to construct a male body) and the *blood* of a wizard Mandy here: Sorry about the snipping, your post are very interesting but I'm more afraid of the Elves! Yes it the bone of the Father that is required in the spell rather then LV choise. But I wanted to point out that I'm not sure LV is that particular about using a male body to regenerate into. After all he was happy to use Ginny in CoS. Mandy From rredordead at aol.com Thu Dec 4 17:35:05 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 17:35:05 -0000 Subject: A spell question. In-Reply-To: <000001c3ba86$867d79e0$02ec79a5@Einstein> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86496 > Iggy here: > I was just doing some research for a project I'm working on, and found this definition an a "Latin to English Translator": > reduco: to lead back, bring back, return. > This leads me to wonder how the "Reducto" spell in OotP would cause > tables and such to pretty much implode on themselves. Mandy here: Perhaps the word Reduco is related to Reductio? Any linguists out there? The Late Latin root word of Reductio has become our word Reduction or Reduce. That, logically, has to do with the reducing of something, all the way down to nothingness, which imo would cause something to implode, or at least disappear. Also, if you think more philosophically, to return could mean to return to our original state, which was nothingness. That in turn could cause the implosion of an object. The following definition is from Merriam Webster's. (I prefer Oxford but Merriam is free online.) It's very long but look at definition number 8: to diminish in strength or density seems to fit. Main Entry: re?duce Pronunciation: ri-'d?s, -'dy?s Function: verb Inflected Form(s): re?duced; re?duc?ing Etymology: Middle English, to lead back, from Latin reducere, from re- + ducere to lead -- more at TOW Date: 14th century transitive senses 1 a : to draw together or cause to converge : CONSOLIDATE b (1) : to diminish in size, amount, extent, or number (2) : to decrease the volume and concentrate the flavor of by boiling c : to narrow down : RESTRICT d : to make shorter : ABRIDGE 2 archaic : to restore to righteousness : SAVE 3 : to bring to a specified state or condition 4 a : to force to capitulate b : FORCE, COMPEL 5 a : to bring to a systematic form or character b : to put down in written or printed form 6 : to correct (as a fracture) by bringing displaced or broken parts back into their normal positions 7 a : to lower in grade or rank : DEMOTE b : to lower in condition or status : DOWNGRADE 8 a : to diminish in strength or density b : to diminish in value 9 a (1) : to change the denominations or form of without changing the value (2) : to construct a geometrical figure similar to but smaller than (a given figure) b : to transpose from one form into another : CONVERT c : to change (an expression) to an equivalent but more fundamental expression 10 : to break down (as by crushing or grinding) : PULVERIZE 11 a : to bring to the metallic state by removal of nonmetallic elements b : DEOXIDIZE c : to combine with or subject to the action of hydrogen d (1) : to change (an element or ion) from a higher to a lower oxidation state (2) : to add one or more electrons to (an atom or ion or molecule) 12 : to change (a stressed vowel) to an unstressed vowel intransitive senses 1 a (1) : to become diminished or lessened; especially : to lose weight by dieting (2) : to become reduced b : to become concentrated or consolidated c : to undergo meiosis 2 : to become converted or equated synonym see DECREASE, CONQUER - re?duc?er noun - re?duc?ibil?i?ty /-"d?-s&-'bi-l&-tE, -"dy?-/ noun - re?duc?ible /-'d?-s&-b&l, -'dy?-/ adjective - re?duc?ibly /-blE/ adverb Hope that helps. Mandy. From rredordead at aol.com Thu Dec 4 17:53:43 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 17:53:43 -0000 Subject: Some discrepancies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86497 Sylvia wrote: > Sorry, Carol - can't produce any unshakeable canon for my view that > Mrs. Black married a cousin. It is mainly a gut feeling about the > way she refers always to "my" house, rather than "our". You would > expect "Sirius, you swine, you have brought disgrace upon your > father's house". On the other hand. given the form her madness seems > to take, you may well be right in thinking that she has become so > totally obsessed with the purity of the House of Black that she has > come to believe it really is hers by right of blood. I am not a > siriophile, but I do wonder whence he inherited his basic decency, > given that his father was probably just as awful as his mother, just less vocal. Mandy here: I also think it highly probable that Mrs. Black married her cousin but being married myself (not to my cousin I might add. ;-)) I do know that although it took a number of years did I begin, eventually, to refer to my husbands family as mine, or 'ours'. I don't use his name, instead I kept mine and us the title Ms. but it is just a natural state of being when you share a life with another to adopt another's families. Perhaps you know this as you may be married yourself but I just wanted to add my two cents worth. Also if Mrs. Black came from a less distinguished family she might be more than willing to adopt her husband's family as hers. Where does Sirius' good seed come from? I would guess his father's side of the family just because the other good seed, Andromeda, was a Black, so she was a cousin from Sirius' dad's side of the family. I don't know where Sirius' uncle who supported him financially in London sits on the family tree though. Mandy From overlord_mordax at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 16:33:06 2003 From: overlord_mordax at yahoo.com (Greer) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 16:33:06 -0000 Subject: Oddities of Squib names... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86498 Okay, don't know if this has been mentioned here before, or even if it means anything at all. But I noticed, rereading the 5th book this weekend, something odd. Lets take a look at our two known Squibs, shall we? Argus Filch Arrabella Figg Notice anything? Both of their given names start with A-R and their last names with F-I. Important? Probably not. But then agian... From LinneaLand at CS.com Thu Dec 4 15:18:38 2003 From: LinneaLand at CS.com (thelinnealand) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 15:18:38 -0000 Subject: Is Hogwarts So Safe? / The Chamber Pot/Mirror/Requirement Room Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86499 I have read numerous accounts here that reiterate DDs claim that Hogwarts provides protection for those who are within its walls. Codswallop, I say. Sure there are some protections but hey, LV lived there in a turban and a book. Death Eaters visit. (Malfoy, the Executioner,Karkarov...) The Azkaban guards swarmed a school function and attacked Harry right on the grounds by the lake. Looks to me to be the most dangerous place on Earth one could be, especially while Harry and DD are there. And don't be too sure about that anti-apparition thing. Remember the ship coming out of the lake? Maybe not apparition per se but pretty close. And the Chamber of Secrets, a special place for the heir of Slytherin, is under the lake with a nice handy tunnel right into a Hogwarts toilet. Should be a simple matter for LV to apparate there. There has never been any mention of DD destroying the Chamber or access to it and I find that ominous. When LV decides Snape has to go the Castle's protection will be like mist. [end this part] It was I who postulated that the Mirror of Erised may have been hidden in the Room of Requirement, possibly also before DD deduced the rooms unique abilities, back in post #86320. It was my very first post to a forum and now one of you has accounted me "brilliant and deserving of a pat on the back" in post #86470 Guess I will have to retire now while I am ahead because there is no way I can live up to that! Thank you very much for the warmest of welcomes. Seriously, it is just a guess that seems to fit the facts but if someone can disprove it with canon I will be happy to concede the point. Linnea (Lin nay uh) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 19:44:02 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 19:44:02 -0000 Subject: Neville's father's wand (Was:Where Have the Wands Gone?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86500 meriaugust: What happens to wands when wizards die? Yolanda: > Like Neville's wand, I assume they are treated > like other possessions of course for practical > reasons, they might be handled a special way. > For example, Neville may have inherited his > father's wand, however his Gran wouldn't have > given it to him until after he received his > Hogwarts letter. The fact that Neville's gran gave him his father's wand brings up an interesting point (aside from the fact that she didn't buy him his own wand, which is a separate idea already discussed). Neville's father wasn't dead. His mother (Neville's grandmother) may have initially kept his wand, not for sentimental reasons (she isn't sentimental and he isn't dead) but in hopes of giving it back to her son when he recovered. When he didn't recover after ten years, she felt free to give it to Neville. I don't think she had any hopes of recreating her son through Neville, but she must have felt that she was bestowing a great honor on him and probably hoped that would inspire him. But her decision also seems to indicate that she had lost all hope for Frank's recovery. Otherwise she would have continued to keep Frank's wand for him until she could return it. Thoughts, anybody? (Preferably alternatives to ESE!Gran, which we've already covered?) Carol From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Thu Dec 4 20:34:18 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 15:34:18 -0500 Subject: Will Harry tell? Message-ID: <000601c3baa5$fe25b4c0$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> No: HPFGUIDX 86501 I've been wondering about Harry's and Dumbledore's secret...The prophesy. Harry didn't confide in anyone yet. I'm wondering how he'll deal with it. Will he confide in Ron or Hermione? Both of them or just one of them? Will he want to tell Neville about it and his part in it? Will he want the Weasley's or the Order to know about it? Will it even be up to Harry? Will Dumbledore want it kept a secret or will he have told the told to the Order over the summer, or did they know already? What if Dumbledore wants it kept a secret and Harry doesn't? Will Harry go along with Dumbledore anymore? Another thing I'm wondering about is how Harry is going to act around Petunia during the summer. Is he going to pepper her with questions when they're alone? Will he thank her for protecting him? Will he try to connect with her? Will she confide anything to him or show the smallest amount of caring to him. I wonder all those things about Dudley too. These are the things I'm most looking forward to finding out in book 6(besides how Harry's relationship's with Malfoy, Snape and Neville will change). Joj , whose sorry for the barrage of questions. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 20:56:16 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 20:56:16 -0000 Subject: Do the DEs know that Voldemort is Tom Riddle? (Was: Snape as a Spy. . .) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86502 Carol: Do we know for sure that Snape knows Voldemort's true identity? bboy_mn: I'm thoroughly convinced that Snape now knows about the Tom Riddle/Voldemort connection, but exactly when he found out, I'm not sure. I also wonder just how much the Death Eaters know about Tom Riddle. They must have some vague knowledge, and now that they have been to the graveyard location of the re-embodiment of Voldemort, they have surely made the connection. But exactly what they know about Tom Riddle Sr and his being a muggle is unclear. I believe Voldemort made the comment to Harry about Tom Riddle Sr. being a muggle and a fool before the DE's arrived. Carol: Yes, Diary!Tom's comment to Harry was made in CS and the DEs didn't know of Voldemort's return until the marks on their arms started to burn in GoF. How much they knew before and even how much they know now is still unclear, though we have some pretty clear evidence in some cases. Malfoy, for one, knows that Voldemort was Tom Riddle since he had Tom's diary in his possession (he put it in Ginny's cauldron). If I'm right that he picked it up for Voldemort while he was a sixth- or seventh-year student, he must have known that Tom Riddle was a Slytherin, but he would certainly have assumed at that time that Riddle/Voldemort was a pureblood. Whether he shared his knowledge of Voldemort's former identity with his Slytherin gang or anyone else, I don't know. At any rate, that was many years ago and he was still a boy. He may be starting to draw some conclusions now, a thought I'll get back to in a moment. Peter Pettigrew also must know that Voldemort is Tom Riddle. Moreover, unlike Malfoy, he certainly knows about Tom had a Muggle father after digging up the grave in GoF and adding the "bone of the father" to the mixture that would resurrect Voldemort. I don't think that the other DEs necessarily made the connection, though, or even wondered what they were doing meeting in a Muggle cemetery in GoF. Maybe it seemed like an appropriate meeting place or maybe they were all too concerned with their own skins to think about anything else. Malfoy, the coolest-headed and slipperiest of the DEs present, may have drawn conclusions that no one else did, but he nevertheless gave the information about Sirius to Voldemort and was unquestionably trying to obtain the prophecy for LV rather than himself. Consequently I don't think he had made the connection yet. A year later in the MoM scene, Bellatrix clearly doesn't believe Harry when he inform her that Voldemort is a half blood with a witch mother and a muggle father and tries to stupefy him in her rage at his perceived lie (OoP 784 Am. Ed.) Interestingly, Lucius Malfoy and most if not all of the other Death Eaters involved in the Mom incident are also present during that exchange, but only Bellatrix seems upset by it. The others calmly continue to follow orders from Malfoy, whose sole concern at the moment is the safety of the Prophecy. Still, Malfoy may have time to remember Harry's words while he's sitting in Azkaban. Lucius, as we all know, is "slippery," and I can't imagine him continuing to be a loyal follower of Voldemort if he knows beyond doubt that Voldemort is a half-blood--which is not to say that I think he'll stop being a Death Eater when he escapes, only that he'll have his own agenda (if he doesn't already). If so, I think Severus Snape will take full advantage of the opportunity to subvert and distract his old friend, to the Order's (and his own) advantage. Carol From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Dec 4 20:57:08 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 20:57:08 -0000 Subject: Will Harry tell? In-Reply-To: <000601c3baa5$fe25b4c0$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86503 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mom31" wrote: > Another thing I'm wondering about is how Harry is going to act around > Petunia during the summer. Is he going to pepper her with questions when > they're alone? Will he thank her for protecting him? Will he try to > connect with her? Will she confide anything to him or show the smallest > amount of caring to him. I wonder all those things about Dudley too. Jen R: Lots of good questions, Joj! I'm most interested in this part, myself. Not too long ago I was pondering the protection at Privet Drive, and think there will definitely be a major breach in security this summer. Every summer up until now somebody in the magical community has made it either into or near Privet drive, and things took a decidedly sinister turn with the Dementors. Next step--invasion of Evil(not LV obviously) into the home. The Dursley's will have to rely on Harry for help and protection, as Dudley did last summer, and I think Petunia at least will be grudgingly thankful for the help (since Vernon will prove hopeless in that situation ). I doubt there's going to be great expressions of love, though, and I don't think Petunia will tell her secrets yet (JKR has said Book 7 will be the time we find out something really important about Lily and I suspect it will come via Petunia). It should prove to be a Bangy summer on Privet Drive! Jen Reese From sophierom at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 20:39:56 2003 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 20:39:56 -0000 Subject: Choices Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86504 Kneasy: What does almost every so-called epic have that hasn't yet appeared in HP? The Temptation of course. The offer/realisation that power can be his for the taking. All he has to do is resist the persistent blandishments of those urging peace, love and a macrobiotic diet and step to the other side. Liz: I imagine he would still want to get rid of V and friends, but he would no longer be subscribing to DD's benevolent philosophy. Oh, it could be a slippery slope!: Laura: Yeah, Harry may act in some fashion on his anger towards DD, but I don't see that as being tempted towards the dark side. Harry doesn't show any interest in power for its own sake at any time during the books; indeed, he shows a consistent reluctance to plumb the depths of his powers. He might well have had the ability to kill Sirius in the Shack (or Bella in the MoM) but he couldn't bring himself to do it. I'd say this is due to a combination of a strong moral foundation and some fear of what he might actually be capable of. This would differentiate him from Tom Riddle, who many of us theorize was delighted to find out that he had magical powers and immediately began exploring their possibilities. Harry sees himself as a human being first; Tom sees himself as a wizard first. In becoming LV, Tom leaves behind his humanness and gives himself over entirely to the power of his wizardry. Sophierom: (First, a quick hello ... I'm new. Forgive me if I mess this up a bit ... ) Maybe what tempts Harry to the "dark side" is the very humanity that we assume makes him stronger than TR. (And I agree with Kneasy here that the "dark side" or temptation is power itself, not LV's camp in particular.) What if his desire to see Sirius again (along with his guilt that he was somehow responsible for Sirius's death) makes him willing to work with anyone (including some pretty nasty people) to get Sirius back? As far as I can see, his feelings of love and grief are the only real motivations that could push Harry to do something really destructive to the Order. The "good" guys (DD, most prominently) have basically told Harry that Sirius is dead, he has to move on, etc. But if someone else out there can convince Harry that there's a way (any way) to get Sirius back, Harry just might be willing to listen. Okay, very crazy theory here, but what if someone in Azkaban (how about Lucius Malfoy?) sends a message (through Draco, perhaps) that he knows of a way to get Sirius back. Harry probably wouldn't be so naive as to believe that this information is free ... he'd know there'd be a price to pay (for example, letting Malfoy out of prison). But maybe he'd rationalize it: Sirius would have done this for me (and Sirius did engage in some questionable behavior to get Pettigrew and protect Harry). From this point, it's a "slippery slope," as Liz aptly put it. I hope the JKR wouldn't make any sort of rebellious or destructive binge end in DD's death ... that would only push Harry into another spiral because he would have felt as if he'd caused, yet again, the death of a father figure in his life. Sadly, I do think DD will die before the end of Book 7, but hopefully, Harry's choices won't have led directly to DD's death. Anyway, even my theories are way off base (very likely :-) ), I think that temptation is definitely an issue that Harry will have to confront in some fashion. Sophierom, who hopes that she hasn't broken any posting ettiqutte rules! From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 21:35:19 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 21:35:19 -0000 Subject: Harry's weak spot (was:Re: Choices) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86505 > Sophierom: > > (First, a quick hello ... I'm new. Forgive me if I mess this up a > bit ... ) > > Maybe what tempts Harry to the "dark side" is the very humanity that we assume makes him stronger than TR. (And I agree with Kneasy here that the "dark side" or temptation is power itself, not LV's camp in particular.) > > What if his desire to see Sirius again (along with his guilt that he was somehow responsible for Sirius's death) makes him willing to work with anyone (including some pretty nasty people) to get Sirius back? As far as I can see, his feelings of love and grief are the only real motivations that could push Harry to do something really destructive to the Order. Laura: Hi Sophierom-nice post! You know, I think you may have something really significant there. Harry's Achilles heel has always been his craving for family and love. That's where the "saving-people-thing" comes from, imo. The one time he was really tempted to blow off Hogwarts was when he discovered the Mirror of Erised. He could easily have stayed sitting in front of it forever had DD not intervened. Harry is always willing to take chances to learn something about his parents-even risking Snape's considerable wrath. I don't see any canon evidence that Harry is interested in power. He likes mastering magical skills but rarely uses them without reason. (No sitting around in his dorm killing flies.) He doesn't show any evidence of a desire to hone his powers to control or influence others. He doesn't even experiment with them the way the twins do, for fun and profit. Whereas I see Tom as an actor, I see Harry as a reactor. (I hope that makes sense.) Tom, raised in an orphanage until age 11, probably experienced more indifference in his environment than outright hostility. That indifference would have allowed him freedom to think about how to escape his situation. It would have allowed him room to act. But Harry was always in a hostile situation from the time he arrived at the Dursleys. His focus was to stay in one piece and protect himself as best he could. Since he never knew when or how the next attack might take place, he learned to react. That would have taken all of his emotional and intellectual energy. Harry's time at Hogwarts hasn't freed him of the instincts he learned living at Privet Drive. He's still reacting rather than acting. But I can really see him getting into some dangerous territory in an attempt to reconnect with his parents or bring Sirius back. I'm not sure he'd trust any DE who offered to help him with this, but I can imagine him falling into a trap if it was laid with enough subtlety. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 22:03:15 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 22:03:15 -0000 Subject: The diary (Was: Snape as a Spy and Spy!Lucius, too!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86506 Carol's (my) first theory: I still don't understand how Lucius got hold of the diary, which couldn't have been left in the Riddle house at the time of the murders. Maybe Voldemort told Lucius that it was at Hogwarts and Lucius forced Dobby to find it and bring it to him? Constance Vigilance's response [snipped by Julie]: ... I think LV gave it to him during VWI. Lucius was a trusted lieutenant at that time, probably the highest-ranking one. I think LV gave him many personal belongings for safe keeping. Carol's (my) revised theory [snipped by Julie]: ...TR wrote the diary in 1943 and left Hogwarts in 1945. It's highly improbable that he carried it around during his travels from 1945-1970 while he was busy transforming himself and trying to become immortal. I think it's much more likely that he left it at Hogwarts in some secure place just before he graduated in 1945.... [The main point, snipped here, is that the job of retrieving it was entrusted to the newly recruited Lucius Malfoy while he was still a Slytherin.] Julie responds: I can well imagine Voldemort entertaining a few of his most trusted cadre with tales of his early days, so as you say Lucius could well have had some idea of what he was unleashing when he planted Tom's diary on Ginny. And since presumably Malfoy Mansion is a large house & estate it makes sense that Voldemort might have kept a few things in storage there Carol: Okay, but I think you've blended Constance V's scenario with mine and overlooked our respective main points. I was solely concerned with how Lucius obtained the diary, which I thought and still think must have been left at Hogwarts. She suggested that he obtained it from LV during VW1 and kept it (along with a few other treasured possessions) under the floorboards of his mansion. I was trying to reconcile her time frame with my theory. The key point (for me) was that LV would not have taken it with him while he was traveling the WW during 1945-1970. He must have left it behind him somewhere. It couldn't have been his Muggle father's house, where he had committed three murders. He had no other "home" except an orphanage, and of course he wouldn't have left any possessions there. (I have a feeling that, beyond his clothes, his wand, his schoolbooks, and the diary, he didn't have many possessions to worry about anyway.) Julie: So while I can see this as one way Lucius might have gotten possession of some of Voldemort's possessions, I can also see another senario. Voldemort's trip to Godric's Hollow was supposed to be a quick assassination. He didn't expect the destruction of his physical body, especially by a baby. Even if he had placed a few cherished items in "safe keeping," its likely that the morning after saw a group of stunned Death-Eaters milling around the DE Central or Voldemort's own personal home mournfully wondering what to do next. How to carry on the good fight now that the great man himself is gone sort of discussion. Its quite possible that Voldemort's belongings were divided up amongst his most devoted followers (or snatched as keepsakes by those of lesser stature). Now that he's back in the flesh, he might want to round up a few things (dark artifacts, rare spell books, personal papers, his old school diary, his mum's photo, etc) Carol: I think we're looking at a different time sequence here. I'm assuming that the diary was left at Hogwarts, so it was either picked up by Lucius long before Godric's Hollow or by Dobby long afterward. The first assumption seems much stronger at this point, as I've already indicated. Whether there were any other possessions, I don't know, but they're not really relevant to my argument. As for stunned Death Eaters mournfully wandering around Godric's Hollow, that could account for LV's wand being found (presumably by Peter Pettigrew, who's the only one who could have returned it to him before the graveyard scene), but no other possessions would have been found there, least of all the diary. And I confess it never occurred to me that Tom Riddle/Voldemort--orphan, murderer, wanderer--might have a personal home. Remember, young Tom Riddle had no home to return to but the orphanage, which is why he stopped petrifying muggle-borns and framed Hagrid--so he wouldn't be sent back there if Hogwarts was closed down. He may have lived with one of his followers as a guest, but how could a homeless orphan who had wandered the WW for 25 years have his own house? He certainly didn't have one when he started his wanderings in 1945, which is another reason why I think that the diary (which was written at and related to Hogwarts) must have been left at Hogwarts, regardless of when it was found. In any case, finding the diary would have nothing to do with rounding up his former possessions and settling down in comfort with a few keepsakes. It was part of a long-conceived plan to rid Hogwarts of muggle-borns. And it must have been Lucius himself who decided to implement this charming idea since he wasn't in communication with Voldemort, who was newly dislodged from Quirrell's head at the time and still without a body to inhabit. Carol (who now wonders where Voldemort *did* live during VW1, now that Julie has raised the question, but is still primarily concerned about the diary and Lucius's connection with it) From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Dec 4 22:03:35 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 22:03:35 -0000 Subject: Harry's weak spot (was:Re: Choices) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86507 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > Laura: But Harry was > always in a hostile situation from the time he arrived at the > Dursleys. His focus was to stay in one piece and protect himself as > best he could. Since he never knew when or how the next attack > might take place, he learned to react. That would have taken all of > his emotional and intellectual energy. > > Harry's time at Hogwarts hasn't freed him of the instincts he > learned living at Privet Drive. He's still reacting rather than > acting. But I can really see him getting into some dangerous > territory in an attempt to reconnect with his parents or bring > Sirius back. I'm not sure he'd trust any DE who offered to help him > with this, but I can imagine him falling into a trap if it was laid > with enough subtlety. Jen R: I totally agree with your assessment, Laura, but hope Harry isn't lured into another trap like in OOTP. Harry seems to be maturing over the course of OOTP, showing signs he has integrated a voice of caution that wasn't there before (it sounds like Hermione's voice to him, but it's a start anyway.... He's able to think through options, when he's not under stress, and restrain himself at times. Like not using his invisability cloak and rushing with Dobby to find the Room of Requirement, or realizing it wouldn't be a good idea for Sirius to meet them in Hogsmeade. Under stress he's still reactive, but he did agree with Hermione's plan to check at Grimmauld Place before racing after Sirius--that's the opposite of what he did in PS & COS where he raced off without a second thought. I found the loss of Sirius heartbreaking; I also think Harry learned from that loss and the worry he felt over his friends. Will he rush off next time the warning is sounded? Yes, because that's what is in his nature to do ;). But maybe he'll think twice and put a few more safeguards between him and disaster. Jen R. From entropymail at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 22:14:20 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 22:14:20 -0000 Subject: Oddities of Squib names... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86508 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Greer" wrote: > Okay, don't know if this has been mentioned here before, or even if > it means anything at all. But I noticed, rereading the 5th book this > weekend, something odd. > > Lets take a look at our two known Squibs, shall we? > > Argus Filch > Arrabella Figg > > Notice anything? Both of their given names start with A-R and their > last names with F-I. Important? Probably not. But then agian... This reminds me of something that I noticed a while ago. The initials of both Dumbledore and his predecessor are the same (A.D.): Armando Dippet Albus Dumbledore I don't pretend to have a clue as to what this might mean, if anything, but I thought I'd just thought I'd throw it out there and add it to the mix! :: Entropy :: From siriuslove71 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 23:04:12 2003 From: siriuslove71 at yahoo.com (Diana_Sirius_fan) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 23:04:12 -0000 Subject: GOF, Harry's eyes and Moody, Neville and the Cruciatus Curse. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86509 Hello. I know there has been a lot of discussion about the importance of Harry's eye color. I am reading GOF again and found a passage that mentions his eyes again, not the color though. I don't know if this has any revelance to anything but I thought it was interesting. On page 232 when Harry is the only one who is able to fight off the Imperius curse Moody says, "We'll try that again, Potter, and the rest of you, pay attention-watch his eyes, that's where you'll see it-very good Potter, very good indeed!" This also has me wondering why Moody would even want to teach Harry that. It seems like he wouldn't want him to have that much power. I also thought it was interesting that Neville chose to bring up the Cruciatus curse considering it was the one used to torture his parents. It was brought up a while ago that Neville may have remembered his parents being tortured and has a memory charm placed on him. After class Neville was upset and his actions seemed like someone who had a memory charm placed on him. "Neville, are you all right?" said Hermoine. "Oh, yes. I'm fine," Neville gabbled in the same unnaturally high voice. "Very interesting dinner-I mean lesson-what's for eating?" I'm not saying he had the memory charm placed on him right then, but maybe seeing the Cruciatus curse performed brought back a memory of his parents and then the effects of the memory charm that was placed on him when he was a baby. The way he acted after the lesson reminded me a little bit of Mr. Roberts after he had his memory charm placed on him. 'Mr. Roberts had a strange, dazed look about him, and he waved them off with a vague,"Merry Christmas." Of course, Mr. Roberts had a very strong memory charm placed on him so he had a glazed look about him. Neville's was performed years ago so his "flashback" wouldn't be as strong. Diana From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 23:11:31 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 23:11:31 -0000 Subject: Bang! You're dead. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86510 Laura wrote: This business of the Unforgivables intrigues me. Why these three? There are lots of ways to hurt people and kill them. And when you think about it, AK is inconsistent with the other 2 Unforgivables in that it's quick, painless and dignified (as it were). The person is alive one moment and dead the next-no muss, no fuss. I don't know why AK is worse than any other form of intentional killing. Sure, there's no known defense, but the theoretical availability of a defense against other forms of lethal attack doesn't mean the victim can use it at the necessary moment. Dead is dead, after all. Liz responded: I think that your quote 'The person is alive one moment and dead the next-no muss, no fuss' shows exactly why the AK is so awful and therefore classified as Unforgivable. Classifying it as an Unforgivable is an effective method of regulation, rather than only judgement. It's so EASY to just snuff someone out with it, one flick of the wrist and the person is gone forever. Even a society as morally dubious as the WW recognises the necessity of creating a huge taboo around such an easy method of killing. People get angry enough to kill all the time, some of them do it, but I'm sure many don't because it's just not that easy. Imagine if no one had to run for a knife or a gun, there was no blood, no choking, no mark on the body. All you had to do was raise your wand and say a few words. I'm sure the highways of the world would be littered with dead bodies! You can't stop a wizard with a wand using AK the way you can (try to) stop people having possession of guns, so calling the use of it 'Unforgivable' is a pretty strong psychological deterrent. Of course it wouldn't make a difference to someone who was ESE anyway, but hopefully it would to the rest of us. Carol: I've also been struggling with why the Avada Kedavra Curse is unforgiveable. I think you've just added an important new element to the debate: Not just because it kills, not just because it's unblockable, but because using it to kill is so easy! Imagine an argument where two powerful wizards who hate each other (Sirius and Snape?) can just AK each other (or the one with the fastest reflexes AKs the other) with nothing to deter them but the thought of a prison sentence for unpremeditated murder and a chance of plea bargaining? True, the curses require intense anger and a real desire to kill (I have no doubt that Bellatrix knows what she's talking about), but some very strong deterrent is still necessary to prevent their widespread use in times when the temptation to kill is very strong, especially in anarchic times when no one knows who's an enemy and who's not. I imagine we're heading into exactly such times with VW2. But aside from the practical necessity you mention, which is why AK is illegal, I think there's a moral or ethical dimension as well, the reason why it's unforgiveable. That brings us back to the question of why the Avada Kedavra is more evil than any other killing spell. And surely, snuffing another person out, "no muss, no fuss," because you hate them enough to kill them, is evil? I think we have to put together all the components: 1) It kills, instantly and painlessly 2) There's no known countercurse or defense (unless you're Harry, LV, or possibly Dumbledore) 3) It requires both power or skill and the desire "to really want to cause pain, to enjoy it" (Bellatrix in OoP) 4) If you're a skilled wizard with the requisite anger or malice, it's just to easy to use it to snuff out someone you hate Maybe we could add that since it leaves no trace (no blood, no weapon, no scream from the victim unless he or she anticipates it), it's also too easy to get away with. Young Tom Riddle AKd his Muggle relatives and went back to school unsuspected. He had already committed another effortless murder using a basilisk, which undoubtedly hardened his resolve to kill and taught him to realize that he enjoyed killing. But AKing his father and grandparents went beyond that. It required the use of his own powers, not a monster's glance, and it required real hatred. And as you say, it was just too easy. Getting away with it, on top of the moral corruption caused by the murders themselves, made Tom Riddle unsalvageable. He had done the unforgiveable; there was no deterrent to further evil because nothing could be worse than what he had already done, and there could be no redemption. Avada Kedavra had transformed a Slytherin schoolboy into Lord Voldemort. Carol From michelle_malfoy at hotmail.com Thu Dec 4 21:52:07 2003 From: michelle_malfoy at hotmail.com (Michelle Malfoy) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 16:52:07 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A spell question. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86511 > > > Iggy here: > > I was just doing some research for a project I'm working on, and >found this definition an a "Latin to English Translator": > > reduco: to lead back, bring back, return. > > This leads me to wonder how the "Reducto" spell in OotP would cause > > tables and such to pretty much implode on themselves. I did not notice that, but I think it would be helpful to first know it what context this occurs. If it is in one of the DA chapters then I would conclude that it is simply a case of a spell gone wrong due to inexperience and would not give it a second thought. But I am interested where you found this. My memory seems to be failing (or it could be the jet leg talking either one also I am a new poster so I don't know if I did this right...so please be kind.) I hope that helps, Michelle _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Thu Dec 4 23:36:52 2003 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 23:36:52 -0000 Subject: Choices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86512 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: " In an epic, does the hero always have to be tempted? What about heroic (or at least admirable)figures in an epic who aren't necessarily the hero of the story who resist temptation, like Aragorn and Faromir? What about heroes who give in to some form of temptation but are heroic anyhow, like Lancelot? Yeah, Harry may act in some fashion on his anger towards DD, but I don't see that as being tempted towards the dark side." Now me: Exact; it would be repeating "the Skywalker's scheme", and I'm not sure it would be very interesting. Laura again: "Harry doesn't show any interest in power for its own sake at any time during the books; indeed, he shows a consistent reluctance to plumb the depths of his powers. He might well have had the ability to kill Sirius in the Shack (or Bella in the MoM) but he couldn't bring himself to do it. I'd say this is due to a combination of a strong moral foundation and some fear of what he might actually be capable of. He remembers the consequences of unintended magic in the RW and has learned in the WW that he can do startling things when under duress, so he doesn't feel that his magical abilities are entirely under his control and that scares him. This would differentiate him from Tom Riddle, who many of us theorize was delighted to find out that he had magical powers and immediately began exploring their possibilities. Harry sees himself as a human being first; Tom sees himself as a wizard first. In becoming LV, Tom leaves behind his humanness and gives himself over entirely to the power of his wizardry." Iris: I think you're pointing a very interesting aspect of both characters: the way they deal with their own identity. It's true that Harry doesn't seem to want to know how powerful he is really, maybe because he's afraid of what he is; or because he dislikes some aspects of his own personality (being a Parseltongue for example). But he will have to accept to face himself, ita est, to face "just Harry": a guy with qualities and defects, with strengths and weaknesses, a guy between good and evil, like everybody. We can bet that he will succeed, because each time JKR makes him face his own reflection in a mirror, there's Harry and nothing but Harry. He doesn't seem to want to be someone else. On the very contrary, Tom didn't accept entirely what he was (a half- blood, an orphan who suffers, etc ), that's why he chose "to leave behind his humanness", as you wrote. Being simply human is a great challenge, but he didn't manage to do it. He preferred to assume a "wizard identity" because he couldn't bear his human identity. He thought it would help him if he changed his name, his appearance, if he was powerful and if he made people care for him forcibly. Actually he didn't change anything at all. Stat rosa pristina nomine A rose is a rose, Tom is Tom, and Harry is Harry, even if after the prophecy he might have the temptation of coping out. I wrote one day that he would have to face the scar, and I write it twice. This scar is the summary of his identity. I would like to add that Harry's scar is also a symbol of his double nature. There's currently a threat concerning his possible ancestors. I agree with those who think that he's at the same time the heir of Slytherin and Gryffindor. Many times, JKR writes that Harry feels as if his head was about to split in two. In other words, that he feels strongly his double nature (good/evil; spirit/flesh ), and that it's almost unbearable. Being human is sometimes very painful. Would it be more comfortable if he denied it? Tom tried to do it, choosing to be only evil, choosing to be only a wizard. We see the result. But Harry is more sensible than him, and he will manage to deal with his so human duality. He managed to cry at the end of OotP, and it's a beginning. And he didn't kill Sirius or Bellatrix I would like to see Harry doing the same in his last confrontation with Voldemort, if there's a final duel and if he manages to get the upper hand: renouncing to kill him, and making that blasted prophecy lie. Not because he's afraid of what he might become if he did, but simply because he learned the lesson Tom Riddle was unable to understand: there's metaphysically no difference between human beings. Amicalement, Iris From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 5 00:03:20 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 00:03:20 -0000 Subject: The diary (Was: Snape as a Spy and Spy!Lucius, too!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86513 > Jen R: I definitely agree that Lucius is the owner of the Riddle > House and is in possession of LV's things, but not because LV > trusted him or gave them to him. Carol: I don't see how he or anyone else could have come into possession of the Riddle House. The house had, as far as we know, been bought by muggles after the Riddles were murdered. Remember that Lucius wasn't even born yet when the murders were committed in 1944 and was only sixteen when Voldemort returned in 1970. Anyway, as I've argued in other posts, it's much more likely that Lucius found the diary at school, probably while he was a Slytherin school boy. Jen R: > LV's biggest secret is that he is Tom Riddle the half-blood and he's > not going to willingly give this information to a DE who could turn > on him, and certainly not someone like Lucius with money, power and > pureblood status. Carol: I only half agree with this. I'm sure that Lucius knows, either because Voldemort told him or because he wrote in the diary as Harry and Ginny did and communicated with the memory of Young Tom, that Voldemort was formerly a Slytherin named Tom Riddle. That knowledge does not necessitate his knowing that Tom Riddle was a half-blood. Certainly neither Voldemort nor Diary!Tom would have trusted Lucius Malfoy or any other Slytherin with that information. > > Somehow, and I tend toward a connection with the seedy underworld of > Knockturn Alley and lots of galleons, Lucius came by the diary and > learned of the connection between LV and Tom Riddle. Carol: Lucius would have discovered nothing in the diary's blank pages and the name Tom Marvolo Riddle on the binding would not have suggested that the owner was a Muggle or Muggle-born. Marvolo would, in fact, suggest that the owner was a wizard. And if Lucius wrote in the diary to find out what it was about, that suspicion would of course have been confirmed. Tom Riddle would have told him only as much as he thought Lucius ought to know, and then only after finding out who Lucius was himself. It would make much more sense for Lucius to have had an experience like Ginny's as a schoolboy. He would know what would happen if she started writing in it. I don't see any connection between the diary and the Riddle House, or any need for Malfoy to buy the diary. I also don't see any necessity of his discovering through the diary that Voldemort was Tom Riddle unless Tom himself told him about the "I AM LORD VOLDEMORT" anagram or Voldemort sent young Lucius to find the diary. > > When the circumstances were right, i.e. he's on the Board of > Governors at Hogwarts, the Muggle Protection act is cramping his > style, and Fudge is turning to him as often as DD for advice, Lucius > decides to hatch his plan. He know's *only* that Tom Riddle can > possess people through the diary and open the COS, possibly killing > the person in the process, but not necessarily bringing Riddle to > life (sort of like when LV is possessing Quirrell). Finding out the > extent of the diary's power is shocking to him and he realizes there > may be other ways for LV to return. > > So Lucius covers his bases, he does some research, locates the > Riddle House and purchases it--LV wouldn't know of that. Perhaps he > obtains some other possessions of LV's. He's prepared for LV's > return and ultimate downfall. Carol: Young Tom Riddle would not have left any of his possessions in the Riddle House, which was never his and was the site of his family's murder. He had no home but the orphanage. When he sits in the dark, dust-filled room discussing future murders with Wormtail, it is only as a convenient place to hide, not because it is in any sense his home. The ownership is completely irrelevant. Nor would it give Lucius any advantage to own the Riddle House, which belonged to rich Muggles, not the unacknowledged son and grandson who was also their murderer. While I agree completely that Lucius Malfoy is a scheming slimeball quite capable of betraying his "Master" especially if he discovered him to be a half-blood, I don't think he's certain yet that Harry's claim is true and I don't think that purchasing the Riddle House could in any way aid him in his objectives. Young Tom would not have left any belongings there after the murders. He had never lived there, and any possession, especially a diary with his name on the binding, would have made it all too easy to identify the identity of the murderer, who lived in a Muggle orphanage when he wasn't at Hogwarts and consequently would have been discoverable by Muggle police. Carol From siriuslove71 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 5 00:51:26 2003 From: siriuslove71 at yahoo.com (Diana_Sirius_fan) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 00:51:26 -0000 Subject: The diary (Was: Snape as a Spy and Spy!Lucius, too!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86514 > Carol: > Young Tom Riddle would not have left any of his possessions in the > Riddle House, which was never his and was the site of his family's > murder. He had no home but the orphanage. When he sits in the dark, > dust-filled room discussing future murders with Wormtail, it is only > as a convenient place to hide, not because it is in any sense his > home. The ownership is completely irrelevant. Nor would it give Lucius > any advantage to own the Riddle House, which belonged to rich Muggles, > not the unacknowledged son and grandson who was also their murderer. > > While I agree completely that Lucius Malfoy is a scheming slimeball > quite capable of betraying his "Master" especially if he discovered > him to be a half-blood, I don't think he's certain yet that Harry's > claim is true and I don't think that purchasing the Riddle House could > in any way aid him in his objectives. Young Tom would not have left > any belongings there after the murders. He had never lived there, and > any possession, especially a diary with his name on the binding, would > have made it all too easy to identify the identity of the murderer, > who lived in a Muggle orphanage when he wasn't at Hogwarts and > consequently would have been discoverable by Muggle police. > > Carol Young Tom Riddle could have put some sort of spell on the house when he murdered his father and grandparents. The families that bought the house never stayed long. "Perhaps it was partly because of Frank that the new owners said there was a nasty feeling about the place, which, in absence of inhabitants, started to fall into disrepair." Young Tom could have put a spell on it so nobody would stay long. Like Lucius, he could have made a secret place under the drawing room that nobody knew about and stashed his things in there. During VWI he could have persuaded Lucius to buy the place so he could use the house if he needed to. Nobody knew he was part muggle so they wouldn't even think of finding Voldie at the Riddle house when he needed to go into hiding. He was in hiding for a while before the Potters were killed so this could be where he was. I say this because when I re read GOF, I too thought of Lucius Malfoy as the rich owner of the house. Diana From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 5 01:18:43 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 01:18:43 -0000 Subject: Oddities of Squib names... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86515 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Greer" wrote: > Okay, don't know if this has been mentioned here before, or even if > it means anything at all. But I noticed, rereading the 5th book this > weekend, something odd. > > Lets take a look at our two known Squibs, shall we? > > Argus Filch > Arrabella Figg > > Notice anything? Both of their given names start with A-R and their > last names with F-I. Important? Probably not. But then agian... Also his cat, Mrs. Norris, and her cat, Mr. Tibbles, have similar names and similar abilities. Both seem to act as spies or sorts and to have the ability to communicate with their Squib owners. I don't think Filch and Mrs. Figg are related, but there's clearly some sort of intentional parallelism going on--except of course, that Mrs. Figg is clearly good and Filch is, well, not exactly kind hearted or well intentioned. He's at Hogwarts not because he's good or on the right side, but because, like Hagrid, Lupin, and even Dobby, he was at a disadvantage in a world prejudiced against him and Dumbledore gave him a chance to succeed or at least to belong. I don't know exactly how that relates to Mrs. Figg, who seems able to get by in the Muggle world, but she still has connections with DD and is even a member of the Order, so he does seem to be helping her out, too. Surely her sole source of income can't be a widow's pension and whatever the Dursleys used to pay her to watch Harry when he was small so maybe Dumbledore is paying her, too. Maybe he even told Petunia to use her as Harry's babysitter (sorry, I don't know the equivalent British term). And Filch is a watcher, too (Argus, the many-eyed guardian in Greek mythology whose eyes ended up in a peacock's tail). The Ar-- Fi-- connection may not be important in itself, but I'm virtually certain that it signals a connection of some sort, probably thematic. Maybe Hermione's next crusade will be for Squib Rights. Carol From singersg at zahav.net.il Thu Dec 4 20:15:02 2003 From: singersg at zahav.net.il (singersgoa) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 20:15:02 -0000 Subject: Why Sirius Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86516 Although I can't deny that obviously someone HAD to die in the 5th book, I'm shocked and revolted by JKR's choice of Sirius. It seems to me like pure arbitrary cruelty! A similar effect - Harry feeling guilty - (which was necessary for the scene with Dumbledore) could be produced by the death of almost any of the other characters involved in the battle scene. Choosing Sirius and leaving a boy who's already suffered SO much, including the death of both his parents and 11 years almost totally deprived of love - choosing to take from him the one (and last) person who had a family-like relation to him, the only adult he felt real attachment and love to (and who he knew that loved him) - it's too much cruelty to throw upon the inumerable fans, especially the young ones like Harry. It's true that death is arbitrary and there is a lot of cruelty in the world, but she just didn't have to do this - it's going unnecessarily too far! I ask WHY??? (and I really feel like shouting...) Singersgoa From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Fri Dec 5 01:39:43 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 01:39:43 -0000 Subject: The Diary (just where did V get it & what is really going on ?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86517 One question about the diary that does not seem to have been discussed, is just how did Tom get hold of it in the first place ? Yes, Tom, not Lucius. I am intrigued that JKR chooses to emphasise its origins so specifically: 'Harry turned to the back cover of the book and saw the printed name of a newsagents in Vauxhall Road, London. 'He must have been Muggle-born,' said Harry thoughtfully, 'to have bought a diary from Vauxhall Road...' Firstly, what was Tom doing shopping in Vauxhall Rd ? Vauxhall Rd is a long, boring main road running from Victoria Station down out across the river, usually clogged with heavy traffic. It does have a few tatty shops, some of which are newsagents, but it is definitely not a shopping street - it's mainly lined with large dull office buildings. It isn't at all sinister, or full of dubious attractions for a budding evil overlord, so how come the 15-16 year old Tom was mooching about here ? Shouldn't he have been at the orphanage if he wasn't at school, and don't all the kids get kitted out with writing materials in Diagon Alley, or possibly Knockturn Alley in Tom's case ? I am sure he could have slipped away and got to Vauxhall Rd easily enough if he wanted to, but why should he ? He could have bought 'a small, thin book [with] a shabby black cover..nondescript..[with a] faded year on the cover' in any newsagent, including one nearer his muggle orphanage if necessary. Secondly, where did he get the Muggle money from to buy the diary ? It wouldn't have cost a lot, granted, but the boy's an orphan. If he changed some wizard money at Gringotts, where did he get that from ? Quite capable of stealing it I suppose, by this point, but part of the general question as to how exactly was he funded at Hogwarts from the moment he arrived aged 11 ? Who bought his clothes, and his textbooks ? Can't remember any mention of him getting a scholarship, even though he was apparently a star pupil. Don't think you get a local authority grant for doing magic.. (sadly). Now the reason I raise all these apparently trivial points is that I think they are all clues to a different plot line that hasn't really come up before. You could take the diary address simply at face value. Its a plot device that simply flags up what we later have confirmed - that Riddle is part-Muggle, and Harry needs to find out about this quite soon, so he can start worrying about the similarities between him and Voldie, which culminate in CoS with Dumbledore's delphic, and much- discussed remark 'Its our choices Harry...' etc. However, I think there are deeper hints in this episode, and maybe this is even the bit where JKR 'nearly gave the game away' (she is supposed to have said this in relation to some aspect of CoS !). My theory is that: 1. Tom Riddle has muggle supporters, and they are quite important muggles with influence, who are continuing to support him over the years for devilish reasons of their own. These reasons could be complicated ones of personal family and birthright, or they could be part of some other group determined to get power over the muggle world with wizard help. It is clear from the books that quite a lot of muggles must know about the WW, through intermarriage, or their children going to Hogwarts, and not least at government level. It is not difficult to imagine that it has occurred to various muggles that magic could come in useful for their own sinister purposes. 2. It is one of these muggles that owns Riddle House on behalf of Tom, rather than for 'tax reasons', and it is one of these people that he was meeting down Vauxhall Rd the day he bought his diary. The ONLY interesting thing about Vauxhall Rd is that it leads directly to Westminster, the seat of the British government. And remember, one of these hallowed halls is our non-elected House of Lords, which is STILL full of people who imagine they have a right to influence our laws just because an ancestor stabbed the right person in the back in 1066 (don't start me on the theme !! wizards have nothing to teach the muggle aristocracy about the importance of bloodlines). So if the muggle supporters are motivated by ancestral family reasons or by political reasons, it would be equally convenient for both to meet Tom down Vauxhall Rd. 3. I think that Dumbledore's defeat of Grindelwald in 1945 is closely connected to this muggle plot. Tom Riddle was born in the 1920s, and became 'Lord' Voldemort in approximately 1945, and many have speculated on this list that at this point he took over Grindelwald's dark mantle, having studied the dark arts for 20 years. Obviously the 1945 date has enormous significance in muggle history. My thought is that Grindelwald had another name, and another identity in the muggle world, and this muggle 'death' left a lot of deranged muggles hoping that a new, ruthless leader would emerge. This works politically or for ancestral family reasons. It is a sad truth that many members of the British aristocracy fully supported Hitler's rise to power; including it is said, Edward VIII, who was shipped out to the colonies with Wallis Simpson for the duration of WW2, in case he betrayed the country. 4. I believe Lucius Malfoy is fully involved in this plot up to his neck, and Fudge is being used as a pawn and a go-between with high- ranking muggles he has met through his government contacts. Fudge may or may not really know what is going on; whatever he has guessed, he certainly is in no position to reveal. It is possible the industrius Percy has inadvertently come across some papers he shouldn't have seen and guessed, and is being blackmailed into silence because of his mistake over Crouch Sr (it really is too suspicious that he was suddenly offered a job in Fudge's office after that debacle). The goblins, of course, see chances of big profits whatever happens; who cares if it is muggle or wizard gold.. 5. And Snape ? An interesting one this ! Maybe he discovered Voldie's deal, and was so horrified at the idea of working for a worldwide muggle/DE coup, he turned traitor and told DD (who knew all along, because he knew who Grindelwald was in the muggle world - remember, he reads the Muggle papers unlike most wizards). 6. Obviously they all had a bit of a setback when Voldie was nearly destroyed by Harry, and have had to re-group. One of them will have been keeping all his school things and his wand. The muggles also probably think they can control Voldie, or there is some aspect of their pact with him, which leads them to think he'll honour the bargain. They must all be getting pretty impatient with him, given his endless ludicrous plots; I can imagine that Lucius is playing many complicated games as to who he really supports. 7. I believe that for all these reasons Harry is finally going to have a dual confrontation, involving both the muggle and wizard worlds, and it was for this reason that Dumbledore placed him with the dreadful Dursleys, so he would be totally familiar with the muggle environment, as well as the WW when the time came. It will be an immensely complicated battle, and probably conducted in some secrecy as the WW try to prevent their existence being revealed. I'd say Harry's chances of surviving it are slim, though no doubt Voldie will also be vaporised yet again in the process, probably through a combined attack by his enemies and irritated supporters ! And all that just from one little address....and you know, newsagents don't print their own names and addresses on the backs of diaries. Chains of newsagents who would be big enough to print their own-brand products would not then add the address of one specific branch in Vauxhall Rd. I think JKR was so keen to get the road reference in for later plot reasons that she gave the game away ! Carolyn Who meant to just chuck in her usual 1-para contribution but got carried away this time From amani at charter.net Fri Dec 5 01:43:37 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 20:43:37 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Salazar Slytherin's descendants (Was Re: A strange silver instrument) References: Message-ID: <002701c3bad1$33dda200$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86518 > Carol: > Also it's the *bone* of the father (which makes sense considering that he's trying to construct a male body) and the *blood* of a wizard Mandy here: Sorry about the snipping, your post are very interesting but I'm more afraid of the Elves! Yes it the bone of the Father that is required in the spell rather then LV choise. But I wanted to point out that I'm not sure LV is that particular about using a male body to regenerate into. After all he was happy to use Ginny in CoS. Taryn: But he wasn't going to use Ginny's body. Her "life force," in essence, was fueling the regeneration of his OWN body. The gender of the person used doesn't seem to matter much in that case. ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kmsyarto at hotmail.com Thu Dec 4 20:34:28 2003 From: kmsyarto at hotmail.com (marigoldevans) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 20:34:28 -0000 Subject: Choices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86519 Kneasy wrote: >> What does almost every so-called epic have that hasn't yet appeared in HP? The Temptation of course. The offer/realisation that power can be his for the taking. All he has to do is resist the persistent blandishments of those urging peace, love and a macrobiotic diet and step to the other side. All you need is a bit of lateral thinking. That prophecy. It says that Harry (or so it is presumed) will be Voldy's equal. We have assumed something slightly different; that he will be Voldy's equal *and opposite*. But it doesn't say that at all. Just that someone equal to the Dark Lord will come along and may defeat him. No mention of a saviour- like figure, no mention of a paragon of all that is good and virtuous, just the two of them fighting it out and there being no certainty as to who will win. A power struggle to determine who will be top dog. Now I can't see JKR ending the series with Harry as the Evil Overlord of the WW (though it would be a refreshing change from the accepted convention that good always wins), but I can see Harry going through a crisis of conscience somewhere along the way. There's been a stuttering on/off thread wondering who will be the next to betray the Order. This isn't the first time I've placed Harry at the top of the list of 'those most likely to' as a result of his anger, angst and resentment against those who seem to be manipulating him. Eventual remorse and reconciliation with his finer instincts are pretty much a foregone conclusion, but while he's away he might do an awful lot of damage.>> Wowie! Wow! Wow! I've never actually considered the idea of Evil Overlord Harry before... Now that I'm picturing it, I have a couple reservations. Harry passes on several opportunities to get revenge or to make himself feel better at the expense of someone else, well okay, Ron. His first night in Grimmauld Place, when he's about to have his questions about the Order and Voldemort answered, he briefly considers not passing any information to Ron as payback for keeping him in the dark over the summer. He quickly discards that idea. Also, though very disappointed about not making Prefect, he doesn't ridicule Ron and seems genuinely happy for his friend. Finally, he supports Ron's effort to try out for the Gryffindor quidditch team, when Ron expects him to laugh. I think that, with the people he cares about, he is quite in touch with his finer instincts. With the others, well, that's another story. Yeah, he did try out an unforgiveable curse on Bellatrix, but I think that was a "heat of passion" sort of thing: She had just killed someone that Harry loved. As far as Malfoy and Snape go, I have no answers. In fact, I just had a thought in support of Kneasy's theory. What if Dumbledore died, and Snape took over as head of the Order?! Boy howdy! I could see Harry not wanting to have anything to do with that! Oh, by the way, minor temptation does arise in the very first book (SS, am. ed., page 294), when Quirrelmort snarls "Better save your own life and join me...or you'll meet the same end as your parents..." Marigoldevans, who sighs with pleasure envisioning Harry and Dumbledore riding off into the sunset at the end of book 7 and "living happily ever after"! (Maybe with a couple of those femme fatales!) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 5 01:48:27 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 01:48:27 -0000 Subject: GOF, Harry's eyes and Moody, Neville and the Cruciatus Curse. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86520 Diana: I also thought it was interesting that Neville chose to bring up the > Cruciatus curse considering it was the one used to torture his > parents. It was brought up a while ago that Neville may have > remembered his parents being tortured and has a memory charm placed > on him. After class Neville was upset and his actions seemed like > someone who had a memory charm placed on him. > > I'm not saying he had the memory charm placed on him right then, but > maybe seeing the Cruciatus curse performed brought back a memory of > his parents and then the effects of the memory charm that was placed > on him when he was a baby. > Carol: I know that the memory charm theory is popular as an explanation for Neville's memory lapses, but when his parents were Crucio'd, he was not much older than Harry was when his parents were killed. Why would a baby of one and a half or two at most require a memory charm? There was nothing for him to remember--or forget. (We know that Harry didn't remember what he saw until the Dementors forced him to relive it. I don't see why Neville would be any different.) Given the life he's lived (great uncles dropping him out of windows to see if he's magical, parents he's embarrassed to talk about confined to an asylum, a grandmother who pressures him not to disgrace the family rather than encouraging him), I don't see why his problems can't be the natural psychological consequences of an unhappy childhood. McGonagall may be right that all he needs is confidence. That, his own wand, and his newfound courage could be sufficient in themselves to help him overcome his forgetfulness. (I'm forgetful, but no one ever placed a memory spell on me! Not that I remember, anyway.) Carol From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Fri Dec 5 01:57:20 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 01:57:20 -0000 Subject: Your Will (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86521 There have been several filks devoted to the Crucio and to the AK, but this AFAIK is the first exclusively dealing with the Imperius Curse. Your Will (GoF, Chap. 16) To the tune of I Will by the Beatles Dedicated to Constance Vigilance A MIDI may be found at: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Palladium/9083/white.htm THE SCENE: Dark Arts Defense. MOODY lectures students on the Imperius Curse, and concludes by using it on Dean Thomas, Lavender Brown and Neville Longbottom. MOODY: You-Know-Who longs to own you Control he would instill He can use his Imperius For he wants to rule your will For if he were to seize you You'd play his evil game You'd become a foul Death Eater In the Voldy Hall of Fame. Rule you forever and for evil Rule both your soul and heart Use you whenever he perceives he'll Tear your goodness apart. And now please let me show you How strong this curse can be Sing aloud so all can hear you Make a sound just like a squirrel Do a triple-turn cartwheel toward me I rule your will Your will. - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm Tops on the HPF to-do list is to complete the Beatles White Album (which will, of course, be retitled The Black Album). Having filked I Will, we only need Martha My Dear, Yer Blues, Mother Nature's Son, and Good Night to complete. Texts can be found here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Palladium/7821/white.html Filk Maven First Class status will be awarded to all contributors! From kreneeb at hotmail.com Thu Dec 4 23:02:22 2003 From: kreneeb at hotmail.com (hermionekitten9) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 23:02:22 -0000 Subject: Will Harry tell? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86522 Jen R wrote: >>Not too long ago I was pondering the protection at Privet Drive, and think there will definitely be a major breach in security this summer. Every summer up until now somebody in the magical community has made it either into or near Privet drive, and things took a decidedly sinister turn with the Dementors. Next step--invasion of Evil(not LV obviously) into the home. The Dursley's will have to rely on Harry for help and protection, as Dudley did last summer, and I think Petunia at least will be grudgingly thankful for the help (since Vernon will prove hopeless in that situation ). >> I also have been wondering about who knows about the prophecy, but Unfortunately don't have any answers. I do find it too coincidental that the two boys that fit the prophecy requirements are the two boys that Snape is hardest on. I also have a feeling that Petunia knows about the prophecy. I think for her to have taken Harry in, Dumbledore would have to have given her a good reason and "he's going to save the world from an evil wizard" is about a good reason as any. I honestly don't know about the Order, Sometimes I feel that they know, than sometimes I feel that they're utterly clueless. It wouldn't surprise me either way, all I know is that if Dumbledore had asked me to guard the prophecy I would have asked "why?" I would like to think that Molly knows, because it would explain her "overly motherly" behavior in the fifth book (which annoyed me, more then Harry) and if Molly knows then Arthur knows, and if Arthur knows then I guess Dumbledore did tell the Order. I see no reason why he would tell the Weasleys but not everybody else in the Order. I do think that Harry will tell Ron and Hermione about the prophecy in the sixth book, and there has to be a Neville/Prophecy/Harry confrontation. I also think that Lord V will finally hear all of it in the sixth book. Sorry, that these are more guesses then answers I'm really good at guessing, I had to do it in college. ; ) Kitten Who would really like to know what was in that letter that Dumbledore tucked in Harry's baby blankets. From pixieberry at harborside.com Thu Dec 4 23:22:45 2003 From: pixieberry at harborside.com (Krystol Berry) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 15:22:45 -0800 Subject: Is Hogwarts So Safe? / The Chamber Pot/Mirror/Requirement Room Message-ID: <010001c3babd$8651d100$563a2d0c@pixie> No: HPFGUIDX 86523 Linnea wrote: I have read numerous accounts here that reiterate DDs claim that Hogwarts provides protection for those who are within its walls. Codswallop, I say. Sure there are some protections but hey, LV lived there in a turban and a book. Death Eaters visit. (Malfoy, the Executioner,Karkarov...) The Azkaban guards swarmed a school function and attacked Harry right on the grounds by the lake. Looks to me to be the most dangerous place on Earth one could be, especially while Harry and DD are there. And don't be too sure about that anti-apparition thing. Remember the ship coming out of the lake? Maybe not apparition per se but pretty close. And the Chamber of Secrets, a special place for the heir of Slytherin, is under the lake with a nice handy tunnel right into a Hogwarts toilet. Should be a simple matter for LV to apparate there. There has never been any mention of DD destroying the Chamber or access to it and I find that ominous. Pixieberry replies: Perhaps the "protection" only works on uninvited threats. LV hitched a ride in on Quirrel, who was expected to come to Hogwarts, the Death Eaters you mentioned all had permission to be on the grounds as did the Dementors, and the Durmstrang ship certainly arrived by invitation for the Triwizard Tournament. The Chamber is a little trickier...but if Salazar Slytherin created it, he was a "legal" resident of Hogwarts at the time, as was Tom Riddle when he opened it the first time. Interesting thought about DD not destroying the Chamber...wonder if that'll come to play in future books.... :) Pixieberry (tip-toeing quietly out of Lurkdom...) From derek at rhinobunny.com Thu Dec 4 23:54:08 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 15:54:08 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bang! You're dead. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031204153940.02a8bc30@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86524 Carol wrote: >That brings us back to the question of >why the Avada Kedavra is more evil than any other killing spell. [snip] >I think we have to put together all the components: > >1) It kills, instantly and painlessly >2) There's no known countercurse or defense (unless you're Harry, LV, >or possibly Dumbledore) >3) It requires both power or skill and the desire "to really want to >cause pain, to enjoy it" (Bellatrix in OoP) Derek: I think the key is number three... I suspect all the Unforgiveables (not just the CC) require that the caster get actual pleasure from the torture/murder/domination. And not just the satisfaction of something like seeing justice done, but actual personal enjoyment. I think it would be clear that anyone who would genuinely enjoy killing, torture, or forcing his/her will on another is definitely Evil. From cherishedvette at yahoo.com Fri Dec 5 01:01:15 2003 From: cherishedvette at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 01:01:15 -0000 Subject: Petunia's Rules was(Re: Some Discrepancies) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86525 > Carol: > I don't think it's necessary for Harry to have seen photos of the > Evanses for the mirror to depict them accurately. In fact, it's most > unlikely that he knows anything about his mother's side of the family, > living or dead. Uncle Vernon keeps a pretty tight lid on that topic, > which is why Petunia virtually explodes in the few instances where > she's allowed to talk about her "freak" of a sister and the "awful > boy" she married. She's not likely to keep photos of her parents, who > favored Lily over her, lying around. And the knobbly-kneed older man, > presumably a relative on the Potter side, certainly wouldn't have been > in those photos. > Karen: I have read in several posts lately that Vernon does not allow Petunia to speak of her family. This has started to confuse me because the way I read it in PS/SS is that Vernon was affraid to bring up the Potter's to Petunia because she hates to discuss her sister in any way, and he aggrees with this decision. It seems to have been taken on this list that Vernon sets the rules and Petunia just falls in line, but I have always seen it as Petunia making the rules. From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Fri Dec 5 01:28:26 2003 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 01:28:26 -0000 Subject: Is Hogwarts So Safe? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86526 thelinnealand wrote: > I have read numerous accounts here that reiterate DDs claim that > Hogwarts provides protection for those who are within its walls. > Codswallop, I say. > > Sure there are some protections but hey, LV lived there in a turban > and a book. I agree with you on that point. Then again, Voldemort is now at large and can go anywhere. In a sense, Hogwarts isn't any less safe than anywhere else in the WW. > Death Eaters visit. (Malfoy, the Executioner,Karkarov...) They visited in official capacities and had to behave themselves. They aren't suppose to be Deatheaters, so they have to abstain from torturing muggle-borns or attacking a certain boy-that-lived, especially while Dumbledore and Fudge are standing right there watching them. > The Azkaban guards swarmed a school function and attacked Harry right > on the grounds by the lake. Dumbledore did not let the Azkaban guards inside the school, because he didn't trust them. The Azkaban guards attacked on their own, defying their orders. The fact that they were able to get inside the school, could be because they had been given access. Afterall, if they discover Sirius Black rushing through the gates past them, they would need the ability to follow him inside the school. > > Looks to me to be the most dangerous place on Earth one could be, > especially while Harry and DD are there. Harry said trouble finds him and he's right. I agree that Harry and DD attract plenty of trouble to Hogwarts. However, Hogwarts is still as safe if not safer than the rest of the WW. So far, we've only had one student/faculty death and that occurred outside of Hogwarts. Of course, Voldemort was able to remove Harry and Cedric from Hogwarts prior to killing one of them. > > And don't be too sure about that anti-apparition thing. Remember the > ship coming out of the lake? Maybe not apparition per se but pretty close. Dumbledore knew the ship was coming out of the lake. Perhaps, he lowered the protective barriers to allow this to happen. As far as the "anti-apparition thing", I always saw that as slowing down, not stopping a determined dark wizard. If all dark forces could be held at bay by the Hogwarts defenses, then we'd lack any or all conflict. > And the Chamber of Secrets, a special place for the heir of Slytherin, > is under the lake with a nice handy tunnel right into a Hogwarts > toilet. Should be a simple matter for LV to apparate there. > There has never been any mention of DD destroying the Chamber or > access to it and I find that ominous. I don't know if we would have heard about that, since everything is from Harry's POV. Just because DD didn't pull Harry to the side and say he blocked off the chamber that doesn't mean he didn't. Then again, I'd thought about that as well as the other secret access points to Hogwarts. > > When LV decides Snape has to go the Castle's protection will be like mist. Snape said he would remain at Hogwarts when he chose to ignore the DE summons. Snape strikes me as being both a realist and a survivor. The fact that he chose to remain within Hogwarts tells me that *he* feels protected there. Also, in POA, Snape and Lupin believed Harry to be safe while in Hogwarts, which was why they both were so displeased with his trip to Hogsmeade. To be fair, Hogwarts isn't as safe as we thought at first. Of course in PS/SS, we thought Snape was working for Voldemort, then we found out that Voldemort was riding on the back of Quirrel's head for a year at least. From the first book, JKR told us Hogwarts was safe, but proved otherwise. JKR has deliberately raised the stakes book after book. Soon, if not already, nowhere will be safe. I do believe that Hogwarts protections offer some security, but I also agree that those protections are not perfect. Yolanda From LWalshETAL at aol.com Fri Dec 5 01:30:50 2003 From: LWalshETAL at aol.com (LWalshETAL at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 20:30:50 EST Subject: Drive Him Crazy? (Was: Harry Using the Unforgiveable Curses) Message-ID: <127.361b4d13.2d0139ca@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86527 Diana wrote: Harry's capacity for love MUST play a huge part in how Harry defeats Voldemort for good. And using the killing cures on someone, even scum like Voldemort, doesn't strike me as being an act full of love. Diana L. LauraW: I have been thinking about another way Harry could do in LV. What if Harry were to decide on an active course, rather than the heretofore passive one he has been taking. I am thinking that since part of LV is in Harry and part of Harry is in LV, that Harry could try possessing LV. If Harry could somehow force LV to feel compassion for some other person through Harry, what might be the consequences? If Harry could repeatedly send this emotion his way would it cause him the same sort of pain Harry's scar has caused him when LV is angry? Enough pain to drive him crazy? I know some people are hoping for a serious amount of bloodshed at the end, and I fully expect that as well. I am just trying to think of ways he can avoid using the unforgivable curses. Laura Walsh [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sophierom at yahoo.com Fri Dec 5 02:22:47 2003 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 02:22:47 -0000 Subject: Overturning the prophecy (was Re: Choices)? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86528 Iris: I would like to see Harry doing the same in his last confrontation with Voldemort, if there's a final duel and if he manages to get the upper hand: renouncing to kill him, and making that blasted prophecy lie. Not because he's afraid of what he might become if he did, but simply because he learned the lesson Tom Riddle was unable to understand: there's metaphysically no difference between human beings. Sophierom: Iris, I really like this idea. There is something very appealing about Harry choosing not to kill LV even when he could ... but then how does JKR end the series? It's hardly likely LV would give up the chance to kill Harry, so if Harry takes the high road, he'll be confronting LV all his life, and, as the prophecy suggests, that wouldn't really be much of a life at all. There's been this idea floating around the list that Harry might not die at the end of the series, but instead lose his powers and become a muggle for the rest of his life (I believe Marianne mentions this in post #85158). What if, instead, there were someway that Harry could cause LV to lose his powers, thereby defeating him without killing him? Granted, this goes completely against the prophesy, which clearly states that "either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives" (OOTP, UK ed. 741). But, as Iris has suggested, maybe Harry has the power to make "that blasted prophecy lie" (post #86512). Also, what I find so interesting is that the prophecy uses the word "vanquish" instead of "kill". IMO, "vanquish" connotes "subdue" or "suppress" more than "murder" or "destroy". So, perhaps if the prophecy IS correct, Harry might "subdue" LV first, somehow taking away LV's powers ... and then the very idea of living as a hated muggle will be enough to make Voldie die on the spot. Okay, I admit, that's a sort of cheap way out of the whole thing ... any ideas about ways that Harry could take the high road but still live in a Voldie free world? Or do you think that Harry must kill LV in order to go on with the rest of his life? Sorry if this has been discussed before. But if not, I'm looking forward to reading your thoughts ... though unfortunately not through Legilimency, as I will always be a muggle! Sophierom, who promises to end the cheesiness, right now. From LWalshETAL at aol.com Fri Dec 5 01:26:32 2003 From: LWalshETAL at aol.com (LWalshETAL at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 20:26:32 EST Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) Message-ID: <149.1db30184.2d0138c8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86529 Mel: Continuing on that thought, anyone else besides me here like to see what Snape's like in his Advanced NEWT classes? Bet it's a whole 'nother world in that dungeon. My bet is that he even enjoys those. LauraW: I actually wouldn't be surprised if Harry turns up in Snape's NEWT potions class. Reasons: Without Snape watching his every move, Harry can do potions just fine and he seemed to do so at least in the practical OWL exam. Plus, McGonagall said that he would need NEWT level potions in order to become an Auror. I predict Harry gets a good grade in his OWL potions exams and Snape is forced to take him into his NEWT class, even though neither is happy about it. LauraW From sunnylove0 at aol.com Fri Dec 5 02:39:42 2003 From: sunnylove0 at aol.com (sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 21:39:42 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Sirius Message-ID: <4f.37d86aad.2d0149ee@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86530 In a message dated 12/4/2003 6:41:57 PM Mountain Standard Time, singersg at zahav.net.il writes: > Although I can't deny that obviously someone HAD to die in the 5th > book, I'm shocked and revolted by JKR's choice of Sirius. It seems to > me like pure arbitrary cruelty! A similar effect - Harry feeling guilty - > (which was necessary for the scene with Dumbledore) could be > produced by the death of almost any of the other characters involved > in the battle scene. Choosing Sirius and leaving a boy who's already > suffered SO much, including the death of both his parents and 11 > years almost totally deprived of love - choosing to take from him the > one (and last) person who had a family-like relation to him, the only > adult he felt real attachment and love to (and who he knew that loved > him) - it's too much cruelty to throw upon the inumerable fans, > especially the young ones like Harry. It's true that death is > arbitrary and there is a lot of cruelty in the world, but she just > didn't have to do this - it's going unnecessarily too far! > I ask WHY??? (and I really feel like shouting...) > Singersgoa > Amber: It was a bit horrible, and according to interviews, JKR was pretty cut up about it too...but: 1) Sirius was, as several characters pointed out, trapped in his childhood home. (which he couldn't stand) He couldn't go out as a dog because of the DEs or as a human because of the Ministry. As Hagrid said (and I'm paraphrasing because I don't want to type the accent) he would have rather died than stay home and let others do the fighting, especially where the protection of Harry was concerned. 2) Harry is growing up, essentially too fast, a theme in OOP. "He is nearing manhood, this one." (p.756, OOP) The illusions of his "perfect" father and godfather are gone, he has suffered torture by Voldemort, Umbridge, and the Dementors, he has lost Sirius, and Dumbledore has finally told him of his destiny. It's tragic, horribly tragic, but if Harry is going to face Voldemort at 17 or 18, in Book 7, he's going to go through a lot more losses and pain than Sirius, or anything he's experienced so far. Amber [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From LWalshETAL at aol.com Fri Dec 5 01:23:25 2003 From: LWalshETAL at aol.com (LWalshETAL at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 20:23:25 EST Subject: Some Discrepancies/ Eye Color (Was: Mark Evans- evans, Evans, EVANS) Message-ID: <28.412460dd.2d01380d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86531 Carol wrote: Not in real life, true. But this is the Potterverse, where clues are dropped to be found. Are there any unexplained coincidences that have turned out to be dead ends? (I'm not being rude; I'm asking if you know of any.) LauraW: I am not sure if it qualifies are an unexplained coincidence, but so far, there hasn't been any further mention of the plant that causes hot-headedness that Harry was trying to read about when he was studying late at night. Carol also wrote: Petunia's eyes aren't green. I'm betting Mark Evans's are. To which LauraW responds: I seem to remember a brief mention of the fact that Ginny has green eyes too, in OotP. I can't find the quote right now, though. Does anyone know if the Weasley clan has green eyes? LauraW [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Fri Dec 5 02:57:57 2003 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 02:57:57 -0000 Subject: Do the DEs know that Voldemort is Tom Riddle? (Was: Snape as a Spy. . .) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86532 Carol wrote: > > Yes, Diary!Tom's comment to Harry was made in CS In CoS, Tom told Harry that he was using the name Lord Voldemort among his "most intimate friends only" while he was at Hogwarts. (CoS page 314, US edition, paperback) So some of the higher-up, older Deatheaters should know that Voldemort was Tom Riddle. I also think that at least some of them knew he was a half-blood. Tom was in Slytherin surrounded by pure-bloods and half-bloods who'd grown up in the WW, however Tom had grown up around muggles. Even if Tom knew he was a wizard before receiving his Hogwarts letter, he would not know details about the WW. Tom's ignorance of the WW would have stood out, so at least some of his classmates, and thus some of his first DEs, would have known his half-blood status. Yolanda From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 5 03:23:28 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 03:23:28 -0000 Subject: Bang! You're dead. In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031204153940.02a8bc30@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86533 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Derek Hiemforth wrote: > Carol wrote: > >That brings us back to the question of > >why the Avada Kedavra is more evil than any other killing spell. > [snip] > >I think we have to put together all the components: > > > >1) It kills, instantly and painlessly > >2) There's no known countercurse or defense (unless you're Harry, LV, > >or possibly Dumbledore) > >3) It requires both power or skill and the desire "to really want to > >cause pain, to enjoy it" (Bellatrix in OoP) > > > Derek: > I think the key is number three... I suspect all the Unforgiveables > (not just the CC) require that the caster get actual pleasure from > the torture/murder/domination. And not just the satisfaction of > something like seeing justice done, but actual personal enjoyment. > I think it would be clear that anyone who would genuinely enjoy > killing, torture, or forcing his/her will on another is definitely > Evil. Carol: Yes. In fact, Bella is referring to the unforgiveables in general, not just to the Cruciatus Curse: "Never used an unforgiveable before, have you, boy?" she yelled. . . . "You need to *mean* them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain--to enjoy it. . . . I'll show you how it is done, shall I? I'll give you a lesson---" (OoP 810 Am. Ed.) Bellatrix herself especially enjoys using the CC, but she indicates that *all* of the unforgiveables, even the Imperius curse, require a will to harm the other person. If that's true, and I see no reason to doubt the word of an expert, we can pretty much eliminate any benevolent or morally neutral uses for it. It would require the will to dominate the other person, and not for that person's benefit. And AK would require killing for pleasure, in which case Sirius and Remus could not have used it against Peter, no matter how great their rage toward him for his betrayal. Or would Sirius, at least, have derived a grim pleasure from it, deranged as he was? I think it would have driven him over the brink to full-fledged insanity. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 5 03:56:22 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 03:56:22 -0000 Subject: Is Hogwarts So Safe? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86534 Yolanda wrote: > Dumbledore did not let the Azkaban guards > inside the school, because he didn't trust > them. The Azkaban guards attacked on their > own, defying their orders. The fact that > they were able to get inside the school, > could be because they had been given access. > Afterall, if they discover Sirius Black rushing > through the gates past them, they would need > the ability to follow him inside the school. Carol: Doesn't Umbridge state in PoP that she let the Dementors in to kiss Sirius? Sorry I can't find the page reference. > Yolanda wrote: > Harry said trouble finds him and he's right. > I agree that Harry and DD attract plenty of > trouble to Hogwarts. However, Hogwarts is > still as safe if not safer than the rest of > the WW. So far, we've only had one > student/faculty death and that occurred outside > of Hogwarts. Of course, Voldemort was able to > remove Harry and Cedric from Hogwarts prior to > killing one of them. Carol: I agree with you that Hogwarts is as safe as or safer than virtually any other place in the WW. At least it has a headmaster with the authority and the power to prevent Dementors from entering and the anti-apparation safeguards. They could also close off the chimneys to prevent entrance to Hogwarts by that route, as Umbridge did. As for Voldemort removing Harry from the grounds, he needed a specially arranged port key to do that--which, we can be pretty sure, won't be allowed to happen again. And poor Cedric, of course, wasn't even supposed to be there. He was only killed for not being Harry. Regarding Snape, who will be in much greater danger now that the DEs are in Azkaban and he no longer has Malfoy as a go-between, I still say that he's safer in Hogwarts than anywhere else as long as Dumbledore is there. At Hogwarts, at least in Book 6, the only intruder is likely to be yet another DADA teacher, and Snape will be on the lookout for danger there. Outside Hogwarts, he'll have only his wand, his occlumency, and his own cunning to defend him. (And maybe a few stray potions.) Imagine the irony if he has to stay hidden in Grimmauld Place all summer like Sirius! Yolanda: > Snape said he would remain at Hogwarts when he > chose to ignore the DE summons. Snape strikes > me as being both a realist and a survivor. The > fact that he chose to remain within Hogwarts > tells me that *he* feels protected there. Carol: I don't think he was considering safety at that moment. He and Karkaroff were faced with three options: return to Voldemort, which they both rejected; "flee!" (Snape's contemptuous advice to the coward Karkaroff, which Karkaroff took; and remain at Hogwarts, which I think Snape did on principle. Granted, Hogwarts is at least as safe as fleeing into the unknown, but it was also where Snape wanted to be as a statement of where his loyalties lie. (It should prove safe for awhile at least, regardless of his reasons for staying there; we know Snape survives to do something of great importance in Book 7.) Yolanda: > JKR has deliberately raised the stakes book after > book. Soon, if not already, nowhere will be safe. > I do believe that Hogwarts protections offer some > security, but I also agree that those protections > are not perfect. Carol: You're right. But I think and hope that Dumbledore will recognize those dangers and take even more precautions to ensure that Harry, at least, survives to his seventh year. And I think we can pretty much count on that. . . . :-) From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Dec 5 04:05:48 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 04:05:48 -0000 Subject: The Diary (just where did V get it & what is really going on ?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86535 I am *so* impressed by this! Whether or not it turns out to be true, you sure tied together a lot of little things that need to be connected to something somehow! Carolyn wrote: > My theory is that: > > 1. Tom Riddle has muggle supporters, and they are quite important > muggles with influence, who are continuing to support him over the > years for devilish reasons of their own. These reasons could be > complicated ones of personal family and birthright, or they could be > part of some other group determined to get power over the muggle > world with wizard help. It is clear from the books that quite a lot > of muggles must know about the WW, through intermarriage, or their > children going to Hogwarts, and not least at government level. It is > not difficult to imagine that it has occurred to various muggles that > magic could come in useful for their own sinister purposes. Annemehr: Are you familiar with this bit of article I remembered and looked up on The Leaky Cauldron? -Scotland on Sunday -17 January 1999 "Harry's Fame" -By Rosemary Goring "Rowling's grandmother was illegitimate, born of Scottish parents, but abandoned in a London nursing home, whose owners adopted her. She was privately schooled and, until she was 14, lawyers used to visit her every year. Whoever her parents were, one of them had money." Which leaves me wondering: Is this really true? What if it is? Could it have inspired part of JKR's plot? What if Tom wasn't *completely* abandoned by the Riddle family? Then you would be exactly right about reasons of "personal family and birthright" being the reasons they supported Riddle. If the heir of Slytherin remains the heir even though he's half blood, maybe the same can be said if he's also the heir of the Riddles. Ones he hasn't killed, I mean! Ones with power, too. Did you *really* sit down to write a paragraph and come up with an entire theory as you typed? o.O I think your theory rates an acronym: D.I.A.R.I.S.T. Dual Intrigue: Amagical Rich Influence Slytherin's Tom If you decide the muggle backers are Riddles, you can make that be what the middle R stands for. Annemehr From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 5 04:08:50 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 04:08:50 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: <149.1db30184.2d0138c8@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86536 > Mel: > Continuing on that thought, anyone else besides me here like to see what > Snape's like in his Advanced NEWT classes? Bet it's a whole 'nother world in that > dungeon. My bet is that he even enjoys those. > > LauraW: > I actually wouldn't be surprised if Harry turns up in Snape's NEWT potions > class. Reasons: Without Snape watching his every move, Harry can do potions > just fine and he seemed to do so at least in the practical OWL exam. Plus, > McGonagall said that he would need NEWT level potions in order to become an > Auror. I predict Harry gets a good grade in his OWL potions exams and Snape is > forced to take him into his NEWT class, even though neither is happy about > it. > Carol: I think so, too. McGonagall seemed to think he had the makings of an auror, and I think that's the direction we'll see him and Hermione and possibly even Ron going in Books 6 and 7. But I have another personal and highly uncanonical reason for thinking that Harry (and Hermione, at least) will be in Snape's Potions class: I can't imagine JKR depriving herself and us of the pleasure of reading the Harry/Snape scenes. So unless Snape becomes the DADA teacher (in which case he'll still have Harry as his student), Harry will be in advanced potions. Maybe, to Snape's enormous dissatisfaction, Neville will be, too. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 5 04:38:52 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 04:38:52 -0000 Subject: Do the DEs know that Voldemort is Tom Riddle? (Was: Snape as a Spy. . .) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86537 Yolanda wrote: > So some of the higher-up, older Deatheaters should > know that Voldemort was Tom Riddle. I also think > that at least some of them knew he was a half-blood. > Tom was in Slytherin surrounded by pure-bloods and > half-bloods who'd grown up in the WW, however Tom > had grown up around muggles. Even if Tom knew he > was a wizard before receiving his Hogwarts letter, > he would not know details about the WW. Tom's > ignorance of the WW would have stood out, so at > least some of his classmates, and thus some of his > first DEs, would have known his half-blood status. Carol: Unfortunately for us, Voldemort is so much older than the other characters except for Hagrid, McGonagall, Dumbledore and possibly the older Weasleys, none of whom became Death Eaters, that we really have no way of testing this theory. None of the current batch of Death Eaters, as far as we know, is of Tom's own generation (in their sixties or thereabouts). The oldest we know of is Avery, who was 49 in GoF IIRC. Maybe those who knew of his background refused to join him, but we're told that most people didn't know who he was. (Canon reference, anyone?) Also, I very much doubt that Young Tom let his lack of knowledge stand out. Unlike Harry, he would not have asked questions, and he would have kept his eyes and ears open, especially once he realized the contempt in which most Slytherins held muggle-borns. He later became a Prefect, which suggests that he was something of a leader of the Slytherins he knew. What we need to test this theory are some Slytherins in their sixties. Lucius Malfoy would do nicely; so, probably, would Snape's. But we don't know what became of either of them. Sirius Black's parents let their younger son join the Death Eaters, a move I'm sure they would have discouraged if they suspected him of being a half-blood. So for now, I'm assuming that Tom got away with his unspoken lie as he later got away with murder. Carol From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Dec 5 05:35:50 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 05:35:50 -0000 Subject: The diary (Was: Snape as a Spy and Spy!Lucius, too!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86538 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Lucius would have discovered nothing in the diary's blank pages and > the name Tom Marvolo Riddle on the binding would not have suggested > that the owner was a Muggle or Muggle-born. Marvolo would, in fact, > suggest that the owner was a wizard. And if Lucius wrote in the diary > to find out what it was about, that suspicion would of course have > been confirmed. Tom Riddle would have told him only as much as he > thought Lucius ought to know, and then only after finding out who > Lucius was himself. It would make much more sense for Lucius to have > had an experience like Ginny's as a schoolboy. He would know what > would happen if she started writing in it. I don't see any connection > between the diary and the Riddle House, or any need for Malfoy to buy > the diary. I also don't see any necessity of his discovering through > the diary that Voldemort was Tom Riddle unless Tom himself told him > about the "I AM LORD VOLDEMORT" anagram or Voldemort sent young Lucius > to find the diary. Jen R: Isn't that what you've been arguing on this thread, that Lucius is in possession of the diary because LV directed him to it at Hogwarts? Here you are suggesting Lucius simply found it at Hogwarts on his own. That is a different thought, and not the one I was responding to. My problem is not with Lucius finding the diary at Hogwarts--it seems a stretch to me that he would keep it for so long without using it, but there's nothing to disprove that. My problem was with your point in an earlier post that LV trusted Lucius with his Muggle diary, bought in Muggle London, with his Muggle name on it. How many clues does Lucius need to put two and two together? That's what I was speaking to in my previous point, up-thread. > Carol: > Young Tom Riddle would not have left any of his possessions in the > Riddle House, which was never his and was the site of his family's > murder. He had no home but the orphanage. Nor would it give Lucius > any advantage to own the Riddle House, which belonged to rich Muggles, > not the unacknowledged son and grandson who was also their murderer. Jen R: My thought about Lucius 'obtaining other Riddle possessions' was vague, but I don't think he found Riddle's school things in the Riddle house, either. My idea about Lucius finding Riddle's things in Knockturn Alley was in reference to the scene at Borgins. I found that scene very interesting, symbolic of the "Dark" side of the WW, and there's Lucius Malfoy obviously in his element. He seems to have the gift of appearing to belong wherever he goes--very useful. He seems very familiar in Borgins, used to doing business. And after this scene we go to Flourish and Blotts where Lucius slips the diary into Ginny's cauldron. No, I don't think he purchased it that day, but there's some continuity in these scenes to suggest where Lucius may have found the diary. Now as for Lucius owning the Riddle House, my canon is light but intriguing: "The wealthy man who owned the Riddle House these days neither lived there not put it to any use; they said in the village that he kept it for "tax reasons," though nobody was very clear what these might be." (GOF, US, chap. 1, p. 4) That says to me that the house has a fairly new owner, a wealthy owner, who makes no gain from the purchase, yet pays Frank Bryce to care for it. Why? Now it could simply be a way to make the point that the house is empty and thus easy for LV and Wormtail to live in, but we already know that--the "nasty feeling about the place" sent the prior occupants away. The Riddle House may come to nothing in the future, but at least one other person knows it exists and is keeping an eye on it-- Dumbledore. He's immediately aware of the death of Frank Bryce in this remote village by reading a Muggle newspaper--what made him suspect LV would go back there if it wasn't of some significance? I'm just not ready to rule it out yet, that's all. Jen Reese From jkscherme at adelphia.net Fri Dec 5 05:47:03 2003 From: jkscherme at adelphia.net (Kristen) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 05:47:03 -0000 Subject: Overturning the prophecy (was Re: Choices)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86539 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sophierom" wrote: > Iris: > I would like to see Harry doing the same in his last > confrontation > with Voldemort, if there's a final duel and if he manages to get the > upper hand: renouncing to kill him, and making that blasted prophecy > lie. Not because he's afraid of what he might become if he did, but > simply because he learned the lesson Tom Riddle was unable to > understand: there's metaphysically no difference between human > beings. > > Sophierom: > > Iris, I really like this idea. There is something very appealing > about Harry choosing not to kill LV even when he could ... but then > how does JKR end the series? It's hardly likely LV would give up the > chance to kill Harry, so if Harry takes the high road, he'll be > confronting LV all his life, and, as the prophecy suggests, that > wouldn't really be much of a life at all. > > There's been this idea floating around the list that Harry might not > die at the end of the series, but instead lose his powers and become > a muggle for the rest of his life (I believe Marianne mentions this > in post #85158). What if, instead, there were someway that Harry > could cause LV to lose his powers, thereby defeating him without > killing him? Granted, this goes completely against the prophesy, > which clearly states that "either must die at the hand of the other > for neither can live while the other survives" (OOTP, UK ed. 741). > But, as Iris has suggested, maybe Harry has the power to make "that > blasted prophecy lie" (post #86512). > > Also, what I find so interesting is that the prophecy uses the > word "vanquish" instead of "kill". IMO, "vanquish" connotes "subdue" > or "suppress" more than "murder" or "destroy". So, perhaps if the > prophecy IS correct, Harry might "subdue" LV first, somehow taking > away LV's powers ... and then the very idea of living as a hated > muggle will be enough to make Voldie die on the spot. Okay, I > admit, that's a sort of cheap way out of the whole thing ... any > ideas about ways that Harry could take the high road but still live > in a Voldie free world? Or do you think that Harry must kill LV in > order to go on with the rest of his life? Sorry if this has been > discussed before. But if not, I'm looking forward to reading > your thoughts ... though unfortunately not through Legilimency, as I > will always be a muggle! > > Sophierom, who promises to end the cheesiness, right now. Madeyesgal: How about this? A battle between LV and Harry ensues. Harry manages to disarm LV and retrieves his wand. Defenseless, LV calls upon a nearby dementor to kill Harry. Harry conjures up his Patronus and fends off the dementor. Foiled, disappointed and looking for a victim, the dementor turns to the defenseless LV. Harry, watches the dementor administer the kiss without lifting a wand to stop it. So, Harry doesn't lose his powers or kill LV, but LV is vanquished and no longer a threat to anyone ever again. Frankly, I think this is a great ending! JKR are you reading this? Madeyesgal (who is still hoping that Snape turns out to be a hero) From LinneaLand at CS.com Fri Dec 5 04:41:01 2003 From: LinneaLand at CS.com (thelinnealand) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 04:41:01 -0000 Subject: Is Hogwarts safe? Now Is Grimauld Place safe? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86540 Carol said: Regarding Snape, who will be in much greater danger now that the DEs are in Azkaban and he no longer has Malfoy as a go-between, I still say that he's safer in Hogwarts than anywhere else as long as Dumbledore is there. Imagine the irony if he has to stay hidden in Grimmauld Place all summer like Sirius! Linnea: Too bad Grimauld place isn't safe at all anymore either what with the portraits talking and Kreacher on the loose. He answers to Narcissa Malfoy now and legally the Black house itself might become hers. I think that place is a trap but for whom is the question... Linnea who is getting creepy crawlies just thinking about it From LinneaLand at CS.com Fri Dec 5 03:52:39 2003 From: LinneaLand at CS.com (thelinnealand) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 03:52:39 -0000 Subject: Is Hogwarts So Safe? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86541 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "yolandacarroll" wrote: > thelinnealand wrote: > > I have read numerous accounts here that reiterate DDs claim that > > Hogwarts provides protection for those who are within its walls. > > Codswallop, I say. > > then Yolanda said many helpful things which ended in : > To be fair, Hogwarts isn't as safe as we thought > at first. Of course in PS/SS, we thought Snape > was working for Voldemort, then we found out > that Voldemort was riding on the back of Quirrel's > head for a year at least. From the first book, > JKR told us Hogwarts was safe, but proved otherwise. > > JKR has deliberately raised the stakes book after > book. Soon, if not already, nowhere will be safe. > I do believe that Hogwarts protections offer some > security, but I also agree that those protections > are not perfect. > > > > Yolanda Now me: As long as Harry is at Hogwarts he will be an obvious and prominently placed target where LV can find him almost anytime. Remember that we have seen that LVs skills are not so much that he can perform "great" magic, but that he is adept at gathering power, charming the people he needs (his words) and plotting long term, devious tricks using subterfuge and even torture to achieve his ends. It is a fact that Harry needs his magical education and Hogwarts must be the best place for him to be at this time. But safe? A Fidelius charm and isolation would be safer than Hogwarts has proven to be. I only hope that DD has other big, long gathering defences building while LVs attention is on Harry than the ones we can guess at so far... Linnea (Lin nay uh) From pixieberry at harborside.com Fri Dec 5 05:30:53 2003 From: pixieberry at harborside.com (Krystol Berry) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 21:30:53 -0800 Subject: (Filk) James and Lily's Son Message-ID: <013501c3baf0$f406a760$563a2d0c@pixie> No: HPFGUIDX 86542 The temptation of being named Filk Maven First Class was too powerful to resist, so I respectfully submit: James and Lily's Son To the tune of Mother Nature's Son by the Beatles (MIDI at http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Palladium/9083/white.htm) Dedicated to Gail B, queen of the Filk Mavens :) HARRY: Marked, a poor young orphan boy, James and Lily's son Here to thwart the plans of Voldemort for everyone. See a stygian creature there, what a big surprise! Listen to the wing-beat of the thestral as he flies. Find me with my group of friends, James and Lily's son. Ron, Hermione, they both stay beside me till we've won. James and Lily's son... :) Pixieberry (aspiring Filk Maven extraordinaire) From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Fri Dec 5 07:27:21 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 07:27:21 -0000 Subject: Some Discrepancies/ Eye Color (Was: Mark Evans- evans, Evans, EVANS) In-Reply-To: <28.412460dd.2d01380d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86543 > Carol also wrote: > Petunia's eyes aren't green. I'm betting Mark Evans's are. > > To which LauraW responds: > I seem to remember a brief mention of the fact that Ginny > has green eyes too, in OotP. I can't find the quote right > now, though. Does anyone know if the Weasley clan has > green eyes? > > LauraW > I'm not sure about the other Weasley's, but Ginny has brown eyes: 'On the third landing, a door stood ajar. Harry just caught sight of a pair of bright brown eyes staring at him before it closed with a snap. "Ginny," said Ron. ' -CoS, Ch 3 --Arcum From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Dec 5 08:44:55 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 08:44:55 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86544 > > Mel: > > Continuing on that thought, anyone else besides me here like to see > what > > Snape's like in his Advanced NEWT classes? Bet it's a whole 'nother > world in that > > dungeon. My bet is that he even enjoys those. > > Carol: >I can't imagine JKR > depriving herself and us of the pleasure of reading the Harry/Snape > scenes. So unless Snape becomes the DADA teacher (in which case he'll > still have Harry as his student), Harry will be in advanced potions. > Maybe, to Snape's enormous dissatisfaction, Neville will be, too. > > Carol June: It's not beyond possibility that Dumbledore could "lean" on Snape to accept Harry into Advanced Potions. Another one of those cosy little staff development chats... I bet Snape's employee file has it's own cabinet. I think Harry will get an "E" (surely an "E" is the mark even if you do better than rubbish when you were expected to do very badly - just a stray thought) and that may just allow Snape to grudgingly let him in. Hermione will be there through merit. Personally - I'd like Neville to be the future Auror - following his Dad. I can't see him getting in to the NEWT potions class though - I think with Neville it really would be a case of "Over my dead body". Come to think of it, I can't hardly imagine Neville wanting to be in that class either. It'll be interesting to see just what JKR does with this one. Obviously we are going to see Snape still teaching the trio somehow and probably Neville and I'm not prepared yet to say - yeah, the way round that is for him to teach DADA. Mind you, that would be a nice scene if they all showed up for NEWT DADA not knowing it was him and there he is, their very own favourite teacher, smiling nastily from behind the desk. June Getting impatient to know already. From quigonginger at yahoo.com Fri Dec 5 09:02:02 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 09:02:02 -0000 Subject: The diary and Lucius's many reasons (also TM Riddle) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86545 Mandy wrote (one point among many) And again why Ginny? Why not use Ron? He's closer to Harry Ginger postulates: I think that is why he didn't use Ron. Ginny was a first year. She didn't have friends going in, so if she needed a bit of time to herself, no one would notice, as opposed to Ron, who is almost always with Harry and Hermione. For Lucius, this time alone would mean to write in the diary and whatever else may happen afterwards. For plot purposes, it involves killing the roosters and freeing the basilisk. Lucius wouldn't have known these specifics (as far as we know! ) but he would have known that something would happen. Or at least have hoped. Lucius knew from Draco what Harry and Ron (and Herm, of course) went through to get the stone. He would know that Harry would have noticed if Ron had suddenly started taking off by himself with no memory of what he had done. Harry would also notice Ron acting strangely. Better to use inconspicuous wall-flower Ginny. Even with all the clues JKR threw at us, we never suspected her. Further along down this thread, someone said that Tom Marvolo Riddle on the diary would have indicated a wizard, due to the wizardness of Marvolo. I'm afraid that the diary only said T M Riddle. The Muggle address may have seemed odd to Lucius, but the name wouldn't have meant a thing unless he already knew. What I do find odd, is that after Harry told Ron and Hermione about T M Riddle, that Ron recognized the name T M Riddle as one who had won a trophy for special services. I think that it's odd that the trophy said "T M" rather than "Tom". Had it said "Tom" or "Tom M", there would have been more to the discovery. So why just the initials on the trophy? Ginger, who strongly recomends that posters who are eating squeezy cheeze aim directly at the cracker. To do otherwise may cause the poster's screen to become covered in squeezy cheeze. This is your Public Service Announcement for the day. You're welcome. From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Dec 5 07:46:31 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 07:46:31 -0000 Subject: Basilisks was Re: Bang! You're dead. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86546 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: Carol: > Maybe we could add that since it leaves no trace (no blood, no weapon, > no scream from the victim unless he or she anticipates it), it's also > too easy to get away with. Young Tom Riddle AKd his Muggle relatives > and went back to school unsuspected. He had already committed another > effortless murder using a basilisk, which undoubtedly hardened his > resolve to kill and taught him to realize that he enjoyed killing. But > AKing his father and grandparents went beyond that. It required the > use of his own powers, not a monster's glance, and it required real > hatred. And as you say, it was just too easy. Geoff: Several weeks go, I raised a point about Fawkes attacking the basilisk's eyes and not getting killed in COS. Reading this post threw up a thought in the same sort of direction. How did Tom Riddle manage to communicate with the creature back in 1942 or thereabouts? He had a body then and was therefore vulnerable to its glance. Did he talk over his shoulder to it? Presumably he must have known it was a basilisk when he first reopened the Chamber or he might have had a surprise and a seriously shortened career as an evil wizard.I wonder how much information he had as the Heir of Sltherin about it and from where he got this information. Was it passed down by word of mouth? Did Salazar leave something in writing? Just thinking aloud.... Geoff From derek at rhinobunny.com Fri Dec 5 08:06:15 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 00:06:15 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Petunia's Rules was(Re: Some Discrepancies) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031205000227.024a4a10@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86547 >Karen: >I have read in several posts lately that Vernon does not allow >Petunia to speak of her family. This has started to confuse me >because the way I read it in PS/SS is that Vernon was affraid to >bring up the Potter's to Petunia because she hates to discuss her >sister in any way, and he aggrees with this decision. It seems to >have been taken on this list that Vernon sets the rules and Petunia >just falls in line, but I have always seen it as Petunia making the >rules. Derek: I tend to agree, especially given the scene in OotP where she gets DD's Howler. Vernon has been all set to toss Harry out the door, (seeming somewhat nonplussed as to why he hadn't done this earlier, interestingly enough), and he changes his mind basically because Petunia says so. Although Vernon is blustery, I think she's the one ultimately calling the shots. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Dec 5 12:17:08 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 12:17:08 -0000 Subject: Choices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86548 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marigoldevans" wrote: > > > Wowie! Wow! Wow! I've never actually considered the idea of Evil > Overlord Harry before... Now that I'm picturing it, I have a couple > reservations. > Kneasy: Understandable and expected. I don't really see Harry as Voldy Mk II either, though it *could* happen since Harry is likely to have accumulated sufficient magical power to make himself a contender for the heavywieght crown by the time of the final showdown. marigoldevans: > Harry passes on several opportunities to get revenge or to make > himself feel better at the expense of someone else..... > > I think that, with the people he cares about, he is quite in touch > with his finer instincts. With the others, well, that's another > story.... > In fact, I just had a thought in support of > Kneasy's theory. What if Dumbledore died, and Snape took over as > head of the Order?! Boy howdy! I could see Harry not wanting to > have anything to do with that! > Kneasy: The way I see it, Harry may see three possible choices, not two. There is the knight errant route, there is the Dark side route and there is the third, which is the one I think he'll try for. He'll try to opt out. He's getting close to adulthood and he doesn't see why he should blindly follow Dumbledore's plans like a little clockwork mouse. He doesn't want the expectations of DD and others on his shoulders; he doesn't want the responsibility of saving the WW, he wants to be just Harry. Free to choose his career, free to do what he wants when he wants. So far he's had no real choices at all. He probably suspects that he is DD's surrogate, a reluctant conscript in a war he wants no part of. "Why me?" will be the question he asks. And it's likely that the answer "Because that's the way it is," will not satisfy him. If he refuses to cooperate, to try to step aside and avoid the 'pre-ordained' script that DD dumped on him at the end of OoP then it could cause immense difficulties for the Order. Dumbledore could not allow it to happen, setting the scene for further splits within the 'good' side (guess who's side Molly would be on). It could get very messy indeed. Only threats to his friends or actual casualties within the Order might get him to reconsider. If the plot did develop this way, then the likliest cause of the casualties would be DD's insistence that Harry be protected despite his lack of cooperation. Someone could sacrifice themselves to save Harry from his own actions. Now wouldn't that be interesting if it was Snape or DD? Kneasy From derek at rhinobunny.com Fri Dec 5 08:39:28 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 00:39:28 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Overturning the prophecy (was Re: Choices)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031205003337.024aeec0@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86549 >Madeyesgal: > >How about this? A battle between LV and Harry ensues. Harry manages >to disarm LV and retrieves his wand. Defenseless, LV calls upon a >nearby dementor to kill Harry. Harry conjures up his Patronus and >fends off the dementor. Foiled, disappointed and looking for a >victim, the dementor turns to the defenseless LV. Harry, watches the >dementor administer the kiss without lifting a wand to stop it. So, >Harry doesn't lose his powers or kill LV, but LV is vanquished and no >longer a threat to anyone ever again. Frankly, I think this is a >great ending! Derek: The rub here, though, is that the prophecy says that "either must die at the hand of the other." If a Dementor killed LV, then he wouldn't have died at Harry's hand. In fact, it might even be read as meaning that one will kill the other *physically* in some way instead of via spell. If Harry is in fact descended from Godric Gryffindor (and I suspect he is, given the "Godric's Hollow" name of his parent's home), I wouldn't be too surprised if he were to slay LV with Gryffindor's sword... Derek From derek at rhinobunny.com Fri Dec 5 09:25:18 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 01:25:18 -0800 Subject: Thoughts on Neville and Gran Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031205003950.024d84e0@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86550 Given the recent discussion about Neville's memory, I've been wondering about something. When I read the DADA scene in GoF where MoodyCrouch uses the CC, Neville's reaction struck me as the reaction of someone who has *experienced* it. My first thought was that he was abused... that someone (perhaps an ESE!Gran) had used it on him at home. After we find out about Neville's parents, I came to think I'd been mistaken, that Neville's reaction was solely due to knowing that it had been used on his parents, and that Gran's rather grim image (Vulture hat and all) had been just a red herring meant to make us attribute Neville's reticence to her domineering rather than something more serious. The scene with the boggart in PoA would seem to reinforce the idea that the concept of an ESE!Gran is a red herring. After all, as much as Neville fears Snape, surely it would have been his Gran emerging from the wardrobe if she had used the CC on him. However, after reading speculation here about Memory Charms being used on him, I'm unsure again. ;-) Could someone be using Memory Charms on him to make him forget something other than witnessing his parents' attack? Something like the CC being used on him? Even if he doesn't consciously remember it, he might recall it on some level, and therefore react so intensely to seeing it used. The Memory Charm concept opens the door again for the possibility of an ESE!Gran, and I have to say I've had a bad feeling about her ever since SS/PS. If he didn't remember Gran using the CC on him or being a hidden DE or whatever (because of the Memory Charms) then of course the boggart wouldn't assume her form. And intriguingly, in some sense, she *does* emerge from the wardrobe, as Neville's use of Ridikkulus puts Snape in Gran's garb... (Snape!Gran??) In fairness to Gran, though, another possibility may be that baby Neville *did* see his parents Crucioed, and has traumatic memories of it. Rather than DEs using a Memory Charm on him to prevent him from being a witness (since he would be of little value as a witness anyway given his age at the time), someone else (such as a Loving!Gran) may have used it on him to try and stop the nightmares... On a different Neville point, I'm wondering if there's more going on than meets the eye when Neville's mother gives him the Drooble's Blowing Gum wrapper. Its obvious purpose is to be a poignant moment, but I can't help but speculate that maybe there's more to it. Gran makes a point of saying "she must have given you enough of them to paper your bedroom by now." (OotP, U.S. edition, page 515) It could just be the odd behavior of a tragically insane woman, but it seems like it could be purposeful. After all, she keeps giving him the *same* thing over and over again. She's given him enough of those particular things to paper his bedroom... she's not just giving him random items because she dimly remembers that he's her son and she should give him something for Christmas. It's almost as if she's trying to reach through her madness and either give Neville something important or tell him something important by way of these wrappers. And Neville may sense this, on some level. He keeps the wrapper, and we clearly seem meant to assume he's kept all the others as well. Gran thinks they're rubbish, but Neville keeps them. Of course, it may just be sentimental: a tenuous connection to a mother he barely has. But I wouldn't be surprised to see those wrappers play a role in the story before it's over. Perhaps they represent some kind of bond of love between mother and son that will offer Neville some protection at some point. Derek From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Dec 5 07:52:39 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 07:52:39 -0000 Subject: Oddities of Squib names... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86551 Greer: > Okay, don't know if this has been mentioned here before, > Lets take a look at our two known Squibs, shall we? > > Argus Filch > Arrabella Figg > > Notice anything? Both of their given names start with A-R and their > last names with F-I. Important? Probably not. But then agian... Geoff: If the conspiracy theorists are right about Petunia being a squib, the theory sinks slowly in the west.... Cos she's PD (or PE in her former state...). Geoff From angelofthenorth at cantab.net Fri Dec 5 11:43:05 2003 From: angelofthenorth at cantab.net (Angel Moules) Date: 05 Dec 2003 11:43:05 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1070624588.21267.10.camel@Bujold_RH> No: HPFGUIDX 86552 My pet theory on NEWTs and staffing is that we're going to wind up with Snape teaching DADA and someone else teaching Potions next year. Snape then gets laid up at the end of the year, and the jinx happens again. Defeating the Dark Arts seems to be akin to Psychotherapy. To train as a psychotherapist, you need to have gone through therapy yourself, and be open to it, and to deal with issues in the past. You also need to keep working, not think 'it's sorted.' If you've seen the film 'Devil's Advocate' then you'll know what I mean. I think I'd like to see the Snape/Harry dynamic in a different setting. We know Snape doesn't like wandwaving, and it would be interesting to see him doing duelling and mind control. The other thing is that I'm curious about NEWT teaching. Is it one teacher, one subject, or is it more like A levels, where teachers will specialise in their particular area - i.e. does Dumbledore teach Potions for those that don't get Snape's required 'O'. We had different classes taught by different staff, according to ability group in certain subjects. So Maths had streaming at A level, and there was a choice of Economics or Business Studies, depending on ability. Angel From houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Fri Dec 5 13:08:14 2003 From: houseofbohacek at earthlink.net (Gail Ann Bohacek) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 13:08:14 -0000 Subject: (Filk) James and Lily's Son In-Reply-To: <013501c3baf0$f406a760$563a2d0c@pixie> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86553 Pixieberry Wrote: > The temptation of being named Filk Maven First Class was too powerful to > resist, so I respectfully submit: > > James and Lily's Son > > To the tune of Mother Nature's Son by the Beatles > (MIDI at http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Palladium/9083/white.htm) Babe, you keep on writing fantastic filks like this one, and man, you're gonna get that title! Calling all filkers! We only need two more songs to finish the White Album..."Martha, My Dear" and "Good Night" (I got "Yer Blues" covered). Let's see if we can get this album out in time for the holidays! -Gail B...grooving on CMC's "Your Will", too. From entropymail at yahoo.com Fri Dec 5 14:06:01 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 14:06:01 -0000 Subject: Petunia's Rules was(Re: Some Discrepancies) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031205000227.024a4a10@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86554 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Derek Hiemforth wrote: > Karen:It seems to have been taken on this list that Vernon sets the rules and Petunia just falls in line, but I have always seen it as Petunia making the rules. > > Derek: > I tend to agree, especially given the scene in OotP where she gets > DD's Howler. Vernon has been all set to toss Harry out the door, > (seeming somewhat nonplussed as to why he hadn't done this earlier, > interestingly enough), and he changes his mind basically because > Petunia says so. Although Vernon is blustery, I think she's the one > ultimately calling the shots. It should also be noted that it is Petunia, not "Vernon" or "Mr. and Mrs. Dursley", who receives the howler. It is no accident that it is specifically addressed to her. And, it's also no accident that the note's meaning is hidden. Dumbledore doesn't directly come out and say, "Listen, Petunia, such and such was our deal and Harry has to stay with you or else such and such will happen..." His note is cryptic; Petunia is the only one intended to understand its meaning. And she seems to understand it thoroughly. So, not only is Petunia calling the shots, but it is apparent that she hasn't even taken the time to explain to her husband what the heck is going on. :: Entropy :: From angelofthenorth at cantab.net Fri Dec 5 12:40:58 2003 From: angelofthenorth at cantab.net (Angel Moules) Date: 05 Dec 2003 12:40:58 +0000 Subject: THe nature of the Unforgivables(was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bang! You're dead.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1070628061.21263.20.camel@Bujold_RH> No: HPFGUIDX 86555 On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 03:23, justcarol67 wrote: "Never used an unforgiveable before, have you, boy?" she yelled. . . . "You need to *mean* them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain--to enjoy it. . . . I'll show you how it is done, shall I? I'll give you a lesson---" (OoP 810 Am. Ed.) Bellatrix herself especially enjoys using the CC, but she indicates that *all* of the unforgiveables, even the Imperius curse, require a will to harm the other person. If that's true, and I see no reason to doubt the word of an expert, we can pretty much eliminate any benevolent or morally neutral uses for it. It would require the will to dominate the other person, and not for that person's benefit. And AK would require killing for pleasure, in which case Sirius and Remus could not have used it against Peter, no matter how great their rage toward him for his betrayal. Or would Sirius, at least, have derived a grim pleasure from it, deranged as he was? I think it would have driven him over the brink to full-fledged insanity. Angel: I don't think that they would have used AK on Peter. Diffindio on his neck, perhaps? But this raises an interesting question. In Moody's lesson he talks about using AK, and said he wouldn't get a nosebleed if the whole class did it. If Neville had had the torture of his parents uppermost in his mind and all the hatred at Crouch, could he have killed Moody, at that point, because of it? The question is also whether LV was casting AK at DD with enough force to kill at the end of OOTP, which might explain the apparent ability of DD to block the spells, if they weren't enough to kill AotN From RACH911 at aol.com Fri Dec 5 14:38:18 2003 From: RACH911 at aol.com (rach9112000) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 14:38:18 -0000 Subject: Overturning the prophecy (was Re: Choices)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86556 --- > > Sophierom: > > What if, instead, there were someway that Harry > could cause LV to lose his powers, thereby defeating him without > killing him? Granted, this goes completely against the prophesy, > which clearly states that "either must die at the hand of the other > for neither can live while the other survives" (OOTP, UK ed. 741). > But, as Iris has suggested, maybe Harry has the power to make "that > blasted prophecy lie" (post #86512). > admit, that's a sort of cheap way out of the whole thing ... any > ideas about ways that Harry could take the high road but still live > in a Voldie free world? Or do you think that Harry must kill LV in > order to go on with the rest of his life? Rachel: Just a small note that JKR might have been trying to give a hint in the scene after the prophecy has smashed in OOtP (british version pg 814) between DD and Voldie: "You do not seek to kill me dumbledore?..." - Voldie "We both know that there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom... Merely taking your life would not satisfy me, I admit-" - DD "There is nothing worse than death, Dumbledore!" - Voldie. "You are quite wrong... Indeed your failure to understand that there are things much worse than death has always been you greatest weakness-" - DD. Perhaps JKR is trying to open our minds to an alternative ending for Voldie and Harry other than the death of one of them? Just a thought. Rachel From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Dec 5 14:45:38 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 14:45:38 -0000 Subject: Basilisks (was Re: Bang! You're dead.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86557 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" > wrote: > > Carol: > > ...dited... Young Tom Riddle ... had already committed another > > effortless murder using a basilisk, ...edited... > > Geoff: > Several weeks go, I raised a point about Fawkes attacking the > basilisk's eyes and not getting killed in COS. > > Reading this post threw up a thought in the same sort of direction. > How did Tom Riddle manage to communicate with the creature back in > 1942 or thereabouts? ... Did he talk over his shoulder to it? > ...I wonder how much information he had as the Heir of Sltherin > about it and from where he got this information. Was it passed down > by word of mouth? Did Salazar leave something in writing? > > Just thinking aloud.... > > Geoff bboy_mn: Here are a couple of links to previous discussions on the mysteries of the Basilisk's deadly stare- Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 Subject: Re: Myrtle's glasses, Basilisk, Camera, Ghost http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/78537 Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 Subject: Re: Fawkes and the basilisk http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/81291 Like you, these threads ask more question than answers. The truth is we don't know how the Basilisk's Deadly Stare works, maybe the Basilisk has to have deadly intent for it to work. Maybe it has to be direct eye-to-eye contacts; simply seeing or being seen by a basilisk may not be enough. I know that doesn't help much, but I thought you might find what was said previously on this subject interesting. Just a thought. bboy_mn From kcawte at ntlworld.com Fri Dec 5 22:50:31 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 14:50:31 -0800 Subject: THe nature of the Unforgivables(was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bang!You're dead.) References: <1070628061.21263.20.camel@Bujold_RH> Message-ID: <001501c3bb82$3037c610$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 86558 > > Angel: > But this raises an interesting question. In Moody's lesson he talks > about using AK, and said he wouldn't get a nosebleed if the whole class > did it. If Neville had had the torture of his parents uppermost in his > mind and all the hatred at Crouch, could he have killed Moody, at that > point, because of it? > K I think, had Neville *known* it was a DE standing in front of him he *might* have been able to kill him (although I think there's a good chance he'd only be able to muster that much hatred at the Lestranges), but surely he'd have had to know that the person he was casting AK on i.e. Moody was in fact Crouch - if not maybe they should get someone capable of casting the AK, someone who (presumably) is skilled at Dark Arts and hates Death Eaters (oh say, Snape) to run through a list of all the known DEs in his head and cast AK on the new DADA teacher each year if said teacher then suddenly dropped dead they'd know he/she was an impostor. K "The Loudest Noise Comes From The Electric Minerva." From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Fri Dec 5 14:50:39 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 14:50:39 -0000 Subject: Looks aren't everything! (was:Re: Sirius / Severus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86559 > Carol: > I agree that there are a lot of parallels between Severus and Sirius, from similar first names and one-syllable last names to virtually identical coloring (black hair, black eyes, pale skin). Even Sirius's nickname as a dog ("Snuffles") reflects the cruel nickname he called Severus (Snivellus). > Why the difference, then (setting aside any genetic components that > might partially determine personality traits)? Aside from the fact > that Sirius, despite his many character flaws, hated his family and > consequently wanted nothing to do with the Dark Side, he had a > distinct advantage over Severus: he was handsome. Sad as it may be to admit, looks affect the way kids treat other kids. Handsome Sirius had only to say he was bored and James was ready to entertain him at Severus's expense. Severus, on the other hand, was the target of their abuse "because he exists." Skinny, greasy-haired, hook- nosed, a loner since his older friends had graduated, a Slytherin steeped in the Dark Arts, he was treated shabbily because of his looks and less than sparkling personality. Such treatment by popular boys reinforced his unpopularity. Not even the Slytherins in his own year seemed to care enough about him to defend him. No wonder he was angry and lonely and wanted to find someone, anyone, who would acknowledge and respect his brilliant mind and many gifts. > > Sirius, on the other hand, received recognition effortlessly: he was handsome, wealthy, easily scored well on exams, and was the best > friend of a quidditch champion with an outgoing, fun-loving (if > sometimes thoughtlessly cruel) personality. He was popular without > ever seeking popularity. He [Snape]is also unwilling or unable to let go of his miserable past. But things might have been very different if James and Remus had given him the indulgent friendship and brotherly love that they gave to the handsome Sirius, if looks and placement in Slytherin had not blinded all of them to Severus's many talents. But like Kreacher, who was unthinkingly abused by Sirius as something less than human, Severus was snubbed and abused and tormented because of > what he looked like and who he was. Laura, trying hard to catch up: I think this is way too simplistic. Granted, good-looking people start out with an advantage. But there's a lot more to the differences than just looks. Given what we know about the Snape and Black families, we infer that neither of them were good places in which to be reared. We know for sure that the Blacks were pretty awful. We can only theorize about the Snapes based on what Harry sees in Severus's memories, but I think that the cowering child was Severus. The question is, what effect did their early years have on Sirius and Severus? If a child comes from an unhappy home, where there's anger and tension, the child might go one of two ways (this is very reductionist, but you get the idea). Either the child may develop an intense desire to escape and differentiate himself from the source of the bad feelings, or the child might develop a type of Stockholm Syndrome and decide that emulating the source of power is the best course. Extrapolating like crazy from that one little snippet of memory, I'd have to say that Snape chose the latter course. Snape was placed in Slytherin, which should tell us something, even if it is to some degree an self-fulfilling prophecy. We know from canon that Snape had an early interest in the dark arts. (Some have argued on this list that since the source of that information is Sirius, it's not trustworthy, but I have never seen any contradictory canon.) And we know that Snape gave as good as he got when it came to hexes-he and James were always after each other. As an adult, he rules by fear and intimidation. I bet that even the Slytherins know not to push him too far. I don't think it was only Snape's unattractiveness that resulted in his being an outcast. I think it was everything about him-his attitude, his demeanor, his interests. His looks just reflected what was inside. It's easy enough to see how and why Snape ended up with the personality he has. But Sirius is a more complex question. How did he come to reject his family values at such a young age? This is a kid who was brought up with power, position, money and prestige. He can't have had much exposure to the non-pureblood component of the WW. The Blacks would hang out with purebloods, and not just any purebloods, but purebloods who were aware of their "racial purity", like the Malfoys and Crouches, not muggle-lovers like the Weasleys. As a child, Sirius had every advantage the WW could offer. He would have had no reason to turn his back on his parents' world. But somehow he did. His being placed in Gryffindor is a bit of a mystery. Did the Hat see something in Sirius that was lying dormant? Or had Sirius already begun to question his parents' beliefs? In either case, becoming a Gryffindor was the push Sirius needed to separate his own attitudes from those of his family. We have no canon indicating what relations were like between Sirius and his parents before he went to Hogwarts. But we can imagine that they went downhill rapidly from that time. Every visit back to Grimmauld Place would show Sirius what a great difference there was between the values of his school and those of his home. Tensions must have risen exponentially until by the time Sirius was 16, he was in full revolt. Whatever it was that caused the Hat to place Sirius in Gryffindor, it wasn't his looks. And it wasn't his looks that made the other Marauders befriend and trust him. It was his behavior-his whole- hearted adoption of the values of Hogwarts (the Hogwarts of DD, of course) and of Gryffindor. Sirius's attractiveness had to contribute to his general popularity, of course, but that wasn't what made him the person he was. It was what was inside. From hieya at hotmail.com Fri Dec 5 16:05:00 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 16:05:00 -0000 Subject: Looks aren't everything! (was:Re: Sirius / Severus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86560 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > > I think this is way too simplistic. Granted, good-looking people > start out with an advantage. But there's a lot more to the > differences than just looks. Looks aren't everything, it's true. But a good-looking person is often given a certain amount of respect from the very beginning. We don't know what happened in MWPP's first year, but I'm guessing that kids just were drawn to Sirius because he was handsome and cool. I'm also pretty sure that kids avoided Severus from the beginning. In spite of what Sirius said about Severus hanging out with "a gang of Slytherins" I will not give much weight to that until there is more canon to back it up. Sirius made out Snape to be a bully in GoF (many readers speculated that Snape was intimidating and belligerant while at school. In OoP, he is made out to be more of a loner, picked on by the popular bullies.) > Given what we know about the Snape and Black families, we infer that > neither of them were good places in which to be reared. We know for > sure that the Blacks were pretty awful. We can only theorize about > the Snapes based on what Harry sees in Severus's memories, but I > think that the cowering child was Severus. The question is, what > effect did their early years have on Sirius and Severus? > < I don't think it > was only Snape's unattractiveness that resulted in his being an > outcast. I think it was everything about him-his attitude, his > demeanor, his interests. His looks just reflected what was inside. Do looks really reflect what is inside? Some people are brilliant in certain aspects of their lives, while they don't have a clue about other aspects. I've known many intelligent, thoughtful people who did not know what to do with their appearance. Isn't it possible that Snape was just a conventionally unattractive person with a tendency for oily hair and skin? Maybe he hadn't heard of the proper skincare and haircare products--perhaps he didn't care, or didn't have the money. As for the graying underpants, again, he might be a bit sloppy with his hygeine, but that doesn't necessariy reflect what is inside. In other aspects of his life, Snape is brilliantly careful--potion-making, spying on V-mort... > It's easy enough to see how and why Snape ended up with the > personality he has. But Sirius is a more complex question. How did > he come to reject his family values at such a young age? This is a > kid who was brought up with power, position, money and prestige. He > can't have had much exposure to the non-pureblood component of the > WW. Perhaps it's the Snape fan in me, but maybe you're giving Sirius too much credit here :) Sirius is an interesting person, you're right. But he is likeable because he is such a good friend to the Potters. Thus, he is portrayed in a positive way in the books, which are in Harry's perspective. But in other sides of his life, I don't think Sirius is that great of a person, nor did he completely shake off his family values. I think that Sirius explained his past in a simplistic way for Harry to understand, but adults know that it is difficult, if not impossible, to shake off all the values one is raised with. I don't think that Sirius shook off everything that his family taught him when he ran away. Even as an adult, he has arrogance, pride, a strong, rebellious personality. As a teenager, he thought it would be funny to have a fellow student eaten by a werewolf. He had to get all of these traits from somewhere (maybe his mother?) I think Sirius just rejected the whole notion of pure- blood superiority because he didn't want his parents to control who he became friends with. But he retained many other Black family qualities. > As a child, Sirius had every advantage the WW could offer. He would > have had no reason to turn his back on his parents' world. But > somehow he did. His being placed in Gryffindor is a bit of a > mystery. Again, I think that this was another form of rebellion. Sirius rejected one part of his family's beliefs, and didn't want to hang out with his annoying cousins, so he may have asked to go into a different House. > > Whatever it was that caused the Hat to place Sirius in Gryffindor, > it wasn't his looks. I agree. :) >And it wasn't his looks that made the other > Marauders befriend and trust him. It was his behavior-his whole- > hearted adoption of the values of Hogwarts (the Hogwarts of DD, of > course) and of Gryffindor. I don't think that Sirius adopted all of the values of DD. If he had, he wouldn't have called Snape "Snivellus" in the kitchen of #12 Grimmauld Place. In fact, I think that one of the beauty of the books is the cooperation of people with different backgrounds and values. DD knows that the members of the Order do not share his beliefs in everything. They are all just united under the goal of getting rid of the common enemy. I recall Mrs. Weasley questioning Mundungus about where he learned right from wrong. I'm not sure there is such a thing as the "whole-hearted adoption of the values of Hogwarts". >Sirius's attractiveness had to > contribute to his general popularity, of course, but that wasn't > what made him the person he was. It was what was inside. Again, the Snape fan in me says: what was so great about what was inside? :) Sirius was a haughty, thoughtless bully. He may not have called anyone a "mudblood" but he inflicted plenty of damage in his own way. But he got away with it because he was handsome and popular. For me, one of the best things about OoP was the presentation of characters in a more realistic way. Harry begins to see that his family and friends are not as one-dimensional as he had imagined. DD doesn't have all the answers, James is not a saint, and Snape is not just a bad guy. Sirius, in spite of his many bad qualities, deserves to be applauded for loving and taking care of Harry. greatlit2003 who can't wait to see whether Harry will continue with Potions From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Fri Dec 5 17:24:34 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 17:24:34 -0000 Subject: Looks aren't everything! (was:Re: Sirius / Severus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86561 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatlit2003" wrote: > Looks aren't everything, it's true. But a good-looking person is > often given a certain amount of respect from the very beginning. We don't know what happened in MWPP's first year, but I'm guessing that kids just were drawn to Sirius because he was handsome and cool. Laura: How many 11 year olds do you know whom you would describe as either handsome or cool? :-) These are young kids at this point. I think kids of that age are very aware of when something is physically out of the norm but they have no real way to appreciate great beauty. That's a little trip we take starting in adolescence (a stage I miss not at all!). I would agree that Sirius probably had a lot of self-assurance due to his upbringing. But he had to prove himself like everyone else in the school. A highborn pureblood who was an abject screwup at mastering magical skills wouldn't impress anyone for long. greatlit: I'm also pretty sure that kids avoided Severus from the beginning. Laura: Or he avoided them. Or both. We don't know much about what went on in Slytherin House during those years. We can surmise, though, that Severus didn't learn charm and polished social skills at home, the way Sirius most likely did. So Severus would have been at a social disadvantage right away. greatlit: > Do looks really reflect what is inside? Some people are brilliant in certain aspects of their lives, while they don't have a clue about other aspects. Laura: No, of course not. I was referring to these particular cases. On the other hand, there aren't too many ugly heroes in the literary world. Maybe it's a convention authors adopt without being aware of it. > Laura: > > It's easy enough to see how and why Snape ended up with the > > personality he has. But Sirius is a more complex question. How > did he come to reject his family values at such a young age? greatlit: Sirius is an interesting person, you're right. But he is likeable because he is such a good friend to the Potters. I don't think that Sirius shook off everything that his family taught him when he ran away. Even as an adult, he has arrogance, pride, a strong, rebellious personality. As a teenager, he thought it would be funny to have a fellow student eaten by a werewolf. He had to get all of these traits from somewhere (maybe his mother?) I think Sirius just rejected the whole notion of pure-blood superiority because he didn't want his parents to control who he became friends with. But he retained many other Black family qualities. > >Laura: We'll have to agree to disagree on Sirius, I guess, and on what really happened during the Prank. Actually I'm not a Snape hater- he's much too intriguing to hate. But I figured I had to curtail my last post at some point. :-) I agree with you that part of Sirius's reaction to his parents as an adolescent was his desire to choose his own friends. But that begs the question, why wasn't he in Slytherin in the first place, like all the rest of the Blacks? Something had to be in him that differentiated him at his core. Yeah, he had pride and arrogance as a teenager (and Snape didn't?), but where would a Black learn rebelliousness? That's a family with absolutely nothing to rebel against-they have it all. Laura, from the original post >And it wasn't his looks that made the other Marauders befriend and trust him. It was his behavior-his whole-hearted adoption of the values of Hogwarts (the Hogwarts of DD, of course) and of Gryffindor. > greatlit: > I don't think that Sirius adopted all of the values of DD. If he > had, he wouldn't have called Snape "Snivellus" in the kitchen of #12 Grimmauld Place. I'm not sure there is such a thing as the "whole-hearted adoption of the values of Hogwarts". Laura: Here I meant the rejection of the importance of blood, the acceptance of persons on the basis of their individual worth, the rejection of the dark arts, that stuff. There was a thread a while back suggesting that DD chose to stay at Hogwarts rather than become Minister of Magic because he wanted to influence the youth of the WW to his way of thinking about the major issues that faced them. That doesn't mean they'd all be little DD clones, but that they'd adopt his priorities and his world view. Sirius had every reason not to do that, given his upbringing, but he did. I think Snape, in his own lovable way, has done the same thing. I think he's a good guy- it just took him a little longer to get there. From melclaros at yahoo.com Fri Dec 5 18:01:26 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 18:01:26 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86562 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Carol: > I think so, too. McGonagall seemed to think he had the makings of an > auror, and I think that's the direction we'll see him and Hermione and > possibly even Ron going in Books 6 and 7. But I have another personal > and highly uncanonical reason for thinking that Harry (and Hermione, > at least) will be in Snape's Potions class: I can't imagine JKR > depriving herself and us of the pleasure of reading the Harry/Snape > scenes. So unless Snape becomes the DADA teacher (in which case he'll > still have Harry as his student), Harry will be in advanced potions. > Maybe, to Snape's enormous dissatisfaction, Neville will be, too. > I don't know if MgG saw the makings of an auror in Harry or not, if pushed I'd say not. He's way too impulsive and puts himself and others in danger routinely. I think that she was so angry with Umbridge at that moment that she'd have said exactly the same thing if Neville's Toad had been sat before her desk. The "I'll make you an auror if it's the last thing I do" statement was aimed far more towards defying Umbridge than considering Harry's (or Trevor's) qualifications. If we see Harry in NEWT potions it will be for your second reason. That JKR can't resist showing how awful Snape is while teaching Harry. Which is a shame, really, because those of us who suspect Snape of being relatively sane and having some interest in the subject he teaches while NOT in the presence of a Potter would miss out on seeing so; and those who think he's an all-around bad-guy and rotten teacher would miss their opportunity to gloat if it's shown that he's just as nasty with successful students as with stupid or inattentive ones. Mel From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Fri Dec 5 18:59:36 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 18:59:36 -0000 Subject: FILK: Kreacher Blues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86563 Caius says: > Tops on the HPF to-do list is to complete the Beatles White Album > (which will, of course, be retitled The Black Album). This one is to Yer Blues from that album. Here is the midi: http://www.hamienet.com/531.mid As this is a totally depressing and gloomy blues number, it seemed tailor-made for Kreacher. > Filk Maven First Class status will be awarded to all contributors! Filk Maven First Class goes directly to Kreacher in this case. All these words are his. Kreacher Blues "Kreacher is cleaning, lives to serve. Is it true? Is it Harry Potter? Stopped the Dark Lord. Kreacher wonders how he did it." "My poor mistress, oh how she'd cry My poor mistress, what would she say If she knew the scum Nasty brat of a blood traitor it is." "Smells like a drain A criminal to boot. But she's no better A nasty blood traitor Messing up my mistress' house. Mudbloods and werewolves And traitors and thieves." "Kreacher said nothing. He lives to serve The noble House of Black. Master was a nasty swine Not fit to wipe slime >From his mother's boots. Ooh Mistress, what would she say." "Master liked his little joke A disappointment he was. O my poor mistress How she hated him He broke his mother's heart. Treasures thrown out They say he's a murderer, too." Constance Vigilance, transcriber for blues poet Kreacher From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Dec 5 19:05:47 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 19:05:47 -0000 Subject: "Remember My Last, Petunia" (was Petunia's rules) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86565 Jen R: Entropy's post upthread reminded me that we haven't had a really good discussion on Petunia's Howler since about August (if my archive search was correct). One discussion starts with message #64162. Dumbledore acknowledges sending the Howler by telling Harry: "I thought... that she might need reminding of the pact she had sealed by taking you. I suspected the dementor attack might have awoken her to the dangers of having you as a surrogate son" (US, chap. 37, p. 836). So we have that information as well as the cryptic wording, "Remember my Last", which begs the question "last what?!?" Here are some previous thoughts: 1) Last letter sent to Petunia, which may or may not have been the one left on the doorstep at Privet Dr. (mentioned by several people on several threads). 2) Last Heir of Gryffindor, as in Harry is the last 'spiritual' not familial heir, after Dumbledore (credit to susiedale). 3) Last promise to Petunia by Dumbledore, a pact to keep Dudley's or Petunia's magical powers a secret or somehow remove Petunia or Dudley's magical abilities if the Dursley's provide houseroom for Harry. (credit to Ali H., I think she originated the one about keeping the powers secret) 4) Last 'Hope', as in Petunia knows at least part of the Prophecy and understands Harry is the last hope to rid the world of Voldemort (credit to Richelle Votaw). I wish I had a new idea to propose; until then I'm looking at the evidence for each theory above ;). 1) Last Letter: The letter itself wouldn't be evidence for such a cryptic howler; there would have to be something IN the first letter or a later letter that Vernon has no clue about. That takes us to options 2 & 3. 2) & 3) Last Heir of Gryffindor or Last pact between Petunia/DD: On the first one, I'm not sure Petunia would care! She wants no part of the magical world so what would the Gryffindor Heir mean to her, if in exchange she puts Dudley in harm's way by taking Harry in? The thought about a pact between the two, where each one gets something from the bargain, is consistent--that's the type of thing I see Petunia going for. Dissenting opinion seems to be that Dumbledore would not deny anyone his/her magical heritage and that DD doesn't have the power to completely take away someone's magical abilities. That leaves 4) Last Hope. This theory ties into the story well, especially if Petunia's parents were killed by LV. I've always loved the scene where Harry tells the Dursleys LV is back (chap. 2, p.37): "Back?" whispered Aunt Petunia. She was looking at Harry as she had never looked at him before. And all of a sudden, for the very first time in his life, Harry fully appreciated that Aunt Petunia was his mother's sister....All he knew was that he was not the only person in the room who had an inkling of what Lord Voldemort being back might mean." Sniff, sniff (wipes eyes). Petunia became real to *me* in that moment too, and it made me wonder what Petunia, like Lily, had lost at the hands of LV. The idea of Petunia knowing part of the Prophecy, understanding that her family's life is in danger if LV returns and that Harry is the One, would be enough for her to 'grudgingly accept' Harry, IMO. This idea also fits with DD's explanation that Petunia 'awoke to the danger of having Harry as a surrogate son', i.e., LV was just a possible threat before, but now the danger is real. Any other theories? Jen, sorry if this posts twice....Yahoomort wins again! From rredordead at aol.com Fri Dec 5 19:21:57 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 19:21:57 -0000 Subject: Bang! You're dead. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86566 Carol wrote: And AK would require killing for pleasure, in which case Sirius and Remus could not have used it against Peter, no matter how great their rage toward him for his betrayal. Or would Sirius, at least, have derived a grim pleasure from it, deranged as he was? I think it would have driven him over the brink to full-fledged insanity. Mandy here: I disagree partially with your statement above and believe threat both Sirius and Remus could have, and would have used the AK on Peter at the end of PoA. To both of them killing Peter would have been a very great pleasure if you consider the living hell both Sirius and Remus lived in after the death of James Potter due to the betrayal of Peter Pettigrew. Sirius had already showed he was capable of killing another human as a teenager when he sends Snape after Remus back in school. I agree the manslaughter of a hated school rival is very different than the cold-blooded First Degree murder of the AK but I think it shows that deep inside Sirius were the seeds of his dark Black ancestry waiting to grow into something uncontrollable. 12 years in Azkaban is enough to drive any normal guilty person insane, just imagine what it would do to an innocent man who has all day, every day, for 12 years to dwell on revenge where the only light at the end of the tunnel is actually getting to extract it. After all Sirius' motivation to escape from goal was to go after Peter and had nothing to do with his desire to protect Harry. (Granted the Dementors suck out all positive thoughts so if Sirius had any positive thought of love for Harry they would have been lost to the negative thoughts to revenge, but the fact that revenge was the over riding factor is what is important here.) Sirius was living for the day he got to kill Peter and I think he was more than ready to use the AK, the quickest and most effective method of killing another. I do agree with you that it would have driven him over the edge of insanity, where he had been hovering for many years and was still living even up to his death. As for Remus, and I hate to think about it as I really do like him, but I think Remus has killed before, perhaps many times and really, *really* enjoyed it. Of course it was while he was a werewolf and I'm sure he carries enormous guilt, not just for the murders but the extent to which he enjoyed each killing. Remember Werewolf's are rated the most dangerous of all Dark creatures, and humans are their preferred pray. I simply cannot believe that for the entire time Remus has been a werewolf he's been successfully kept away from hunting humans no matter how hard his parents and his friends tried. So even though he is a wonderful, caring and loving man, while he is a werewolf he carries the enormous desire to kill and can do it very easily. That desire has to still live within him somewhere even when he is back to being Remus Lupin. So I am fully convinced he too could have used the AK on Peter as well. Unfortunately, it too, would have pushed him in insanity, after all how could he deal with his werewolf guilt when he could just as easily killed a man as a human as well? Both men felt enormous pleasure and desperate,longing desire at what they were about to. When I read the passage again it seems they were both in a state of elation at being reunited and having their mutual enemy at their feet before them. I certainly believe they both would have used the AK. It would have been the beginning of the end for both, as both would not have been able to have recovered from the use of it, but that is what makes the AK unforgivable. Its use comes out of Evil. Mandy From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Dec 5 18:47:49 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 18:47:49 -0000 Subject: "Remember my Last, Petunia." (was Petunia's Rules ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86567 Jen R: Entropy's post upthread reminded me that we haven't had a really good discussion on Petunia's Howler since about August (if my archive search was correct). One discussion starts with message #64162. Dumbledore acknowledges sending the Howler by telling Harry: "I thought... that she might need reminding of the pact she had sealed by taking you. I suspected the dementor attack might have awoken her to the dangers of having you as a surrogate son" (US, chap. 37, p. 836). So we have that information as well as the cryptic wording, "Remember my Last", which begs the question "last what?!?" Here are some previous thoughts: 1) Last letter sent to Petunia, which may or may not have been the one left on the doorstep at Privet Dr. (mentioned by several people on several threads). 2) Last Heir of Gryffindor, as in Harry is the last 'spiritual' not familial heir, after Dumbledore (credit to susiedale). 3) Last promise to Petunia by Dumbledore, a pact to keep Dudley's or Petunia's magical powers a secret or somehow remove Petunia or Dudley's magical abilities if the Dursley's provide houseroom for Harry. (credit to Ali H., I think she originated the one about keeping the powers secret) 4) Last 'Hope', as in Petunia knows at least part of the Prophecy and understands Harry is the last hope to rid the world of Voldemort (credit to Richelle Votaw). I wish I had a new idea to propose; until then I'm looking at the evidence for each theory above ;). 1) Last Letter: The letter itself wouldn't be evidence for such a cryptic howler; there would have to be something IN the first letter or a later letter that Vernon has no clue about. That takes us to options 2 & 3. 2) & 3) Last Heir of Gryffindor or Last pact between Petunia/DD: On the first one, I'm not sure Petunia would care! She wants no part of the magical world so what would the Gryffindor Heir mean to her, if in exchange she puts Dudley in harm's way by taking Harry in? The thought about a pact between the two, where each one gets something from the bargain, is consistent--that's the type of thing I see Petunia going for. Dissenting opinion seems to be that Dumbledore would not deny anyone his/her magical heritage and that DD doesn't have the power to completely take away someone's magical abilities. That leaves 4) Last Hope. This theory ties into the story well, especially if Petunia's parents were killed by LV. I've always loved the scene where Harry tells the Dursleys LV is back (chap. 2, p.37): "Back?" whispered Aunt Petunia. She was looking at Harry as she had never looked at him before. And all of a sudden, for the very first time in his life, Harry fully appreciated that Aunt Petunia was his mother's sister....All he knew was that he was not the only person in the room who had an inkling of what Lord Voldemort being back might mean." Sniff, sniff (wipes eyes). Petunia became real to *me* in that moment too, and it made me wonder what Petunia, like Lily, had lost at the hands of LV. The idea of Petunia knowing part of the Prophecy, understanding that her family's life is in danger if LV returns and that Harry is the One, would be enough for her to 'grudgingly accept' Harry, IMO. This idea also fits with DD's explanation that Petunia 'awoke to the danger of having Harry as a surrogate son', i.e., LV was just a possible threat before, but now the danger is real. Any other theories? Jen Reese From ladypensieve at yahoo.com Fri Dec 5 18:26:50 2003 From: ladypensieve at yahoo.com (Lady Pensieve) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 18:26:50 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86568 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" > wrote: ... McGonagall seemed to think he had the makings of an auror, and I think that's the direction we'll see him and Hermione and possibly even Ron going in Books 6 and 7. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: > I don't know if MgG saw the makings of an auror in Harry or not...If we see Harry in NEWT potions it will be for your second reason That JKR can't resist showing how awful Snape is while teaching Harry. > Mel Me: I don't doubt that we'll see Harry in NEWT potions, but I also think that the only reason Harry said he wanted to be an Auror - besides needing to say 'something' at that moment - is because he still wants to stay in classes with Ron...that's what Ron had said he'd go for - if I remember correctly - earlier in OOP. Kathy From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Fri Dec 5 20:19:05 2003 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 20:19:05 -0000 Subject: Neville's father's wand (Was:Where Have the Wands Gone?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86569 > meriaugust: > What happens to wands when wizards die? > > Yolanda wrote: > > Like Neville's wand, I assume they are treated > > like other possessions of course for practical > > reasons, they might be handled a special way. > > For example, Neville may have inherited his > > father's wand, however his Gran wouldn't have > > given it to him until after he received his > > Hogwarts letter. justcarol wrote: > The fact that Neville's gran gave him his father's wand brings up an > interesting point > Neville's father wasn't dead. His mother (Neville's grandmother) > may have initially kept his wand, not for sentimental reasons (she > isn't sentimental and he isn't dead) but in hopes of giving it > back to her son when he recovered. When he didn't recover after > ten years, she felt free to give it to Neville. True, Frank Longbottom isn't dead. I didn't mean to imply that he is. I did use Neville's father's incapacitation as an example for what happens to wizards wands after they die, because it was the closest case I could find. I should have mentioned this in my post. I still feel that Neville inherited his father's wand, just like I assume he would have if Frank had died. His father has been incapacitated for years, so something needs to be done with his possessions. I don't know what the ettiquette is, however I would hope that the people who were going to inherit the possessions are the one's who end up with them. Yolanda From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Fri Dec 5 17:45:51 2003 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 17:45:51 -0000 Subject: Do the DEs know that Voldemort is Tom Riddle? (Was: Snape as a Spy. . .) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86570 > Yolanda wrote: > > So some of the higher-up, older Deatheaters should > > know that Voldemort was Tom Riddle. I also think > > that at least some of them knew he was a half-blood. > > Tom was in Slytherin surrounded by pure-bloods and > > half-bloods who'd grown up in the WW, however Tom > > had grown up around muggles. Even if Tom knew he > > was a wizard before receiving his Hogwarts letter, > > he would not know details about the WW. Tom's > > ignorance of the WW would have stood out, so at > > least some of his classmates, and thus some of his > > first DEs, would have known his half-blood status. > > > Carol wrote: > Unfortunately for us, Voldemort is so much older than the other > characters except for Hagrid, McGonagall, Dumbledore and possibly the > older Weasleys, none of whom became Death Eaters, that we really have > no way of testing this theory. None of the current batch of Death > Eaters, as far as we know, is of Tom's own generation (in their > sixties or thereabouts). The oldest we know of is Avery, who was 49 in > GoF IIRC. I (Yolanda) wrote: If older deatheaters persuaded their children to join, then they may or may not have passed on the knowledge that Voldemort was a half-blood. It wouldn't have to be their own children either, it could be a younger deatheaters that you had close relationships with. We don't know for sure that this did or did not happen. The fact is that some of the older deatheaters knew. Considering how other secrets get out in the WW, there is a possibility that at least some of the current deatheaters, beside Malfoy, know that Voldemort is a half-blood. Carol wrote: > Also, I very much doubt that Young Tom let his lack of knowledge stand > out. Unlike Harry, he would not have asked questions, and he would > have kept his eyes and ears open, especially once he realized the > contempt in which most Slytherins held muggle-borns. He later became a > Prefect, which suggests that he was something of a leader of the > Slytherins he knew. I (Yolanda) wrote: I agree. I didn't put this in my earlier post, because I thought it would make it a bit long. My theory was that at first, Tom would have been eager and inquisitive about learning magic and learning about the WW. He would soon learn to hide his half-blood status, but that first year he'd let something slip. Since Slytherins are so purity-conscious and many of them are related to and know of each other, some of his classmates would have asked him about his family, because they wouldn't recognize his last name which came from his muggle father. In the beginning, at least, he would have let his muggleborn status slip, but then once he understood the politics of Slytherin house and the WW, which wouldn't take a smart kid like Riddle long to figure out, he'd hide his half-blood status. Carol wrote: > What we need to test this theory are some Slytherins in their sixties. > Lucius Malfoy would do nicely; so, probably, would Snape's. But we > don't know what became of either of them. Sirius Black's parents let > their younger son join the Death Eaters, a move I'm sure they would > have discouraged if they suspected him of being a half-blood. > > So for now, I'm assuming that Tom got away with his unspoken lie as he > later got away with murder. I think you meant to put "Lucius Malfoy's parents would do nicely". I understood it though. Seeing older deatheaters would help, however I'm afraid that Voldemort's half-blood status was a secret within the deatheaters. Only his "most intimate friends" at Hogwarts knew, so we're talking about a small group. The question is how may of them dared tell other, possibly younger, deatheaters Voldemort's secret. I think this number will be small, but I also think that at least one or two of them shared Voldemort's secret. Yolanda From angelofthenorth at cantab.net Fri Dec 5 14:05:52 2003 From: angelofthenorth at cantab.net (Angel Moules) Date: 05 Dec 2003 14:05:52 +0000 Subject: THe nature of the Unforgivables(was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bang!You're dead.) In-Reply-To: <001501c3bb82$3037c610$a6706751@kathryn> References: <1070628061.21263.20.camel@Bujold_RH> <001501c3bb82$3037c610$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: <1070633156.21263.27.camel@Bujold_RH> No: HPFGUIDX 86571 On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 22:50, Kathryn Cawte wrote: > > Angel: > But this raises an interesting question. In Moody's lesson he talks > about using AK, and said he wouldn't get a nosebleed if the whole class > did it. If Neville had had the torture of his parents uppermost in his > mind and all the hatred at Crouch, could he have killed Moody, at that > point, because of it? > K : I think, had Neville *known* it was a DE standing in front of him he *might* have been able to kill him (although I think there's a good chance he'd only be able to muster that much hatred at the Lestranges), but surely he'd have had to know that the person he was casting AK on i.e. Moody was in fact Crouch - if not maybe they should get someone capable of casting the AK, someone who (presumably) is skilled at Dark Arts and hates Death Eaters (oh say, Snape) to run through a list of all the known DEs in his head and cast AK on the new DADA teacher each year if said teacher then suddenly dropped dead they'd know he/she was an impostor. Angel: The problem is that Quirrellmort wasn't an impostor, he merely had more attached to him than one might expect. Crouch jnr was involved in the torture of the longbottoms, and Neville would have known that. I'm merely wondering how the focus of hatred works. Angel From john at sunstoneonline.com Fri Dec 5 20:52:40 2003 From: john at sunstoneonline.com (John Hatch) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 13:52:40 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Overturning the prophecy (was Re: Choices)? References: <1070655932.8863.70305.m1@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000a01c3bb71$b979ed60$0e00a8c0@sunstone77nev7> No: HPFGUIDX 86572 > Rachel: > Just a small note that JKR might have been trying to give a hint > in the scene after the prophecy has smashed in OOtP (british version > pg 814) between DD and Voldie: > > "You do not seek to kill me dumbledore?..." - Voldie > > "We both know that there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom... > Merely taking your life would not satisfy me, I admit-" - DD > > "There is nothing worse than death, Dumbledore!" - Voldie. > > "You are quite wrong... Indeed your failure to understand that there > are things much worse than death has always been you greatest > weakness-" - DD. > > Perhaps JKR is trying to open our minds to an alternative ending > for Voldie and Harry other than the death of one of them? Just a > thought. I think Rachel's on to something. I have no doubt that the prophecy will be fulfilled, however, in a variety of faith traditions, prophecies are fulfilled in many, many different ways. Often those prophecies or predictions are finalized in ways the followers (or even the prophecy maker) never dreamed. I believe the prophecy MUST be fulfilled, otherwise it isn't much of a prophecy. And remember, Trealawney has history on her side - her prophecy to Harry about the rise of the Dark Lord in PoA has already come to pass. John From siskiou at msn.com Fri Dec 5 21:18:35 2003 From: siskiou at msn.com (Susanne) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 13:18:35 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Looks aren't everything! (was:Re: Sirius / Severus) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55268176215.20031205131835@msn.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86573 Hi, Friday, December 05, 2003, 9:24:34 AM, jwcpgh wrote: > How many 11 year olds do you know whom you would describe as either > handsome or cool? :-) These are young kids at this point. Well, my daughter is eleven right now, and I volunteer in her classroom quite a bit. While *we* (the parental units, or older generation) might not consider any of them handsome and cool, they certainly have their own rules and ideas about who is cool and popular, and who is not. And this starts earlier than age eleven! In many schools, the rudest kids who are in trouble a lot, are unfortunately seen as the cool rebels. Getting good grades gets you somewhere with the teachers and parents, but not necessarily with your classmates. In fact, it could cost you popularity points. So, I could easily see Sirius becoming popular for his arrogance and bullying, helped by good looks. It's a common thing for the popular crowd to pick on one or two unpopular kids, and once this pattern is locked in, it seems very hard to overcome. One little thing could have caused Snape to stand out and be picked as the one, and things developed from there? Do we know if Snape had any close friends to help offset the hard time he was having with Sirius and James? I'm not surprised Snape joined a group of Slytherins. Maybe he needed the protection. Was he the leader of said group? Of course, there is the matter of the sorting hat putting him in Slytherin, but I'm seriously questioning its wisdom by now, anyhow ;) I do wish we'd see some variation in the Slytherin kids. Otherwise, being put into that house instantly marks you as no good in the eyes of many. And no, I'm not a Snape fan. Sirius was never one of my favorite characters, either. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at msn.com Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 5 21:32:20 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 21:32:20 -0000 Subject: The diary (Was: Snape as a Spy and Spy!Lucius, too!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86574 > Jen R: > My problem is not with Lucius finding the diary at Hogwarts--it > seems a stretch to me that he would keep it for so long without > using it, but there's nothing to disprove that. My problem was with > your point in an earlier post that LV trusted Lucius with his Muggle > diary, bought in Muggle London, with his Muggle name on it. How many > clues does Lucius need to put two and two together? That's what I > was speaking to in my previous point, up-thread. > Carol: But it's not his "Muggle" name. Marvolo would indicate a wizard ancestry. There's no way for Lucius to know just from the name that Tom Riddle was a half-blood. He could as easily have assumed that the Riddle name had nearly died out. I think he would assume that because Tom Riddle was a Slytherin, he must have been a pureblood. As for what Young Tom was doing in Vaux Hall, I'm sure Voldemort could come up with a plausible lie that young Lucius was willing to believe. He could have gone there on a dare from his friends, just to see what he could get away with. The older Lucius no doubt has his suspicions regarding Riddle's ancestry, especially after Harry's remarks to Bella in the MoM, but I don't see why the young Lucius would be concerned about it. Diary!Tom isn't likely to give anything away. (I don't know how many clues Lucius needs to put two and two together. I don't think he's as smart as he thinks he is. Now if it were Snape. . . .) Carol, who is still figuring out what she thinks on this question From pixieberry at harborside.com Fri Dec 5 21:12:51 2003 From: pixieberry at harborside.com (Krystol Berry) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 13:12:51 -0800 Subject: Did James and Lily know about the prophecy? References: <1070655932.8863.70305.m1@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <005001c3bb74$8b6a3620$5b3a2d0c@pixie> No: HPFGUIDX 86575 Forgive me if this has been asked before...I couldn't find any mention of it in the archives. I know James and Lily went into hiding presumably because they knew LV was after them. But did they know about the prophecy and realize the danger Harry was in as well? Or did they think their family was in danger because they had "thrice defied him"? :) Pixieberry From pixieberry at harborside.com Fri Dec 5 21:39:43 2003 From: pixieberry at harborside.com (Krystol Berry) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 13:39:43 -0800 Subject: (filk) Good Night Message-ID: <005f01c3bb78$4c37c9a0$5b3a2d0c@pixie> No: HPFGUIDX 86576 *polishes her Filk Maven First Class badge* :) Pixieberry Good Night To the tune of Good Night by the Beatles (midi at http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Palladium/9083/white.htm) Dedicated to Maria, fellow Beatlemaniac and Filkstress Voldemort, closing his eyes and entering Harrys mind sings: LV: Now its time to say good night Good night, sleep tight. Harry, do turn out the light, Good night, sleep tight. Dream my dreams with me, Ill dream my dreams with you. Through the ministry well soar. Good night, sleep tight. Down the hallway, find the door. Good night, sleep tight. Dream my dreams with me, Ill dream my dreams with you. Little Harry dream with me. Good night, sleep tight. We shall find the prophecy. Good night sleep tight. Dream my dreams with me, Ill dream my dreams with you. Goodnight, good night Harry Potter, Go and find the prophecy, Good night. From houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Fri Dec 5 22:25:33 2003 From: houseofbohacek at earthlink.net (Gail Bohacek) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 17:25:33 -0500 Subject: (FILK) Arthur Weasley Message-ID: <410-220031255222533150@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 86577 It's amazing what you can get accomplished once you set your mind to it... Arthur Weasley (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Martha, My Dear_ by the Beatles) Midi is here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle15.html Dedicated to both Pixieberry and Constance Vigilance who will have been officially granted the title "Filk Maven First Class". May they carry it well. Molly Weasley (with Percy playing the piano): Arthur Weasley This has always been an irritation Please, this Muggle stuff, Arthur no more It has to go, Arthur Weasley Listen Arthur, you silly man, your foolish sons They took the car and then they flew with it Telling you that I'm through with it, and with your madness Silly man Make a loophole in the law Make a loophole so you can keep That rusty heap hidden so deep in the garage Silly man The Ministry, you silly man, won't think it's fun If they find out that you've been using it And that you've been abusing it, then they'll want justice Silly man Arthur Weasley This has really become an obsession Please, give it all up, this I implore Say you'll do so, Arthur Weasley Gail B...who has spent way too much time at the computer this afternoon..but I *like* it! houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Why Wait? Move to EarthLink. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Fri Dec 5 22:24:46 2003 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 22:24:46 -0000 Subject: Overturning the prophecy (was Re: Choices)? In-Reply-To: <000a01c3bb71$b979ed60$0e00a8c0@sunstone77nev7> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86578 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "John Hatch" wrote: > I believe the prophecy MUST be fulfilled, otherwise it isn't much of a > prophecy. And remember, Trealawney has history on her side - her prophecy to > Harry about the rise of the Dark Lord in PoA has already come to pass. > John Hi all, Forgive me if this has been debated already, and if it is off topic. I find myself that it is a strange idea, but... are we sure that Trelawney's prophecies are truly what they seem to be? After all, old Sybil has all the characteristics of a fun fair seer, and many times she 's completely ridiculous. These two "true prophecies" don't fit precisely with the whole character. And there's another thing, if I remember well what I read concerning the historical Sybil, who was prophesising in Delphos, and concerning all the ancient oracles in general: they were essentially manipulations. The Sybil asserted that she was possessed by Apollo, and she made her predictions after inhaling narcotics. Manipulations, possession, narcotics (things that you use to ensnare people or to trick them for instance): they are among the Potterverse's favourite games, aren't they? So that's it: what if Trelawney didn't make predictions, but only repeated words that someone else was putting into her mouth? Someone else who was controlling her, in order to manipulate Voldemort? Someone who knew that the union of Lily and James Potter, or of Alice and Frank Longbottom, might give birth to an interesting new wizard? Someone who had such a general view to the whole situation that they were able to anticipate Voldemort's reactions, or better, to make him act just the way they wanted him to? But, on which purpose? And who would be able to do it? Of course, that's only a supposition, and it sounds so ludicrous that it is probably completely wrong. It's because I really don't like that blasted prophecy ?, and would be pleased if it happened to be only a monumental trick Any idea? Amicalement, Iris From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Fri Dec 5 22:48:17 2003 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 22:48:17 -0000 Subject: Did James and Lily know about the prophecy? In-Reply-To: <005001c3bb74$8b6a3620$5b3a2d0c@pixie> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86579 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Krystol Berry" wrote: > Forgive me if this has been asked before...I couldn't find any mention of it > in the archives. > > I know James and Lily went into hiding presumably because they knew LV was > after them. But did they know about the prophecy and realize the danger > Harry was in as well? Or did they think their family was in danger because > they had "thrice defied him"? > > :) > Pixieberry They were friends with Dumbledore, who knew about the prophecy, and apparently they trusted him. He could tell them to hide because they were in danger because of Voldemort, but he didn't need necessarily to tell them the whole truth. Voldemort was dangerous and they had a baby who needed protection, like every baby does: Harry was their weak point and it was enough to go into hiding. Of course, that's only a point of view. Two knuts, Iris From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 5 23:00:17 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 23:00:17 -0000 Subject: THe nature of the Unforgivables(was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bang! You're dead.) In-Reply-To: <1070628061.21263.20.camel@Bujold_RH> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86580 Carol: "Never used an unforgiveable before, have you, boy?" she yelled. . . . "You need to *mean* them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain--to enjoy it. . . . I'll show you how it is done, shall I? I'll give you a lesson---" (OoP 810 Am. Ed.) Bellatrix herself especially enjoys using the CC, but she indicates that *all* of the unforgiveables, even the Imperius curse, require a will to harm the other person. Angel: But this raises an interesting question. In Moody's lesson he talks about using AK, and said he wouldn't get a nosebleed if the whole class did it. If Neville had had the torture of his parents uppermost in his mind and all the hatred at Crouch, could he have killed Moody, at that point, because of it? Carol: First, of course, he'd have to have known that Imposter!Moody was Barty Crouch Jr. and that Crouch had helped the Lestranges Crucio his parents. But even if he had known, I don't think Neville could have AKd (or Crucio'd) Crouch, even if it had occurred to him to do so, because he *doesn't* enjoy inflicting pain even on those who drove his parents insane. There's also, of course, the problem of lack of skill, lack of confidence, and the wrong wand, but the main thing missing is the will to do evil, the will to deliberately inflict cruelty for cruelty's sake or to kill for the sake of killing. Righteous anger, as Bellatrix says, is not enough. You have to enjoy inflicting pain or killing or controlling other's wills, as she does, to make the Unforgiveables work. You have to be evil. And that Neville will never be. Another point regarding the Longbottoms: Other people, including Harry and Neville himself, have survived the Cruciatus Curse relatively unscathed, horrible as it was while they were enduring it, but the Longbottoms were driven insane. This extreme reaction seems to me to require intense, prolonged, and repeated CCs, maybe even from all four Death Eaters at once. That would explain why they, unlike other victims of that particular curse, have spent fourteen years in St. Mungos unable to recognize their own son. I don't think we need to find someone who is continuing to use memory charms on them to keep them in that state. The fact that they were tortured beyond human endurance in the first place is enough to explain their insanity without Evil!gran or Lucius Malfoy or Snape or anyone else giving them poisoned gum to maintain their insanity. (I don't see how a memory charm could be put in a piece of gum, anyway. It's not a hex like the ones that the Weasley twins put on their candy. It presumably has to be placed directly on the person him or herself.) Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 5 23:10:29 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 23:10:29 -0000 Subject: Basilisks (was Re: Bang! You're dead.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86581 Carol: Young Tom Riddle ... had already committed another effortless murder using a basilisk, ...edited... Geoff: Several weeks go, I raised a point about Fawkes attacking the basilisk's eyes and not getting killed in COS. Reading this post threw up a thought in the same sort of direction. How did Tom Riddle manage to communicate with the creature back in 1942 or thereabouts? ... Did he talk over his shoulder to it? ...I wonder how much information he had as the Heir of Sltherin about it and from where he got this information. Was it passed down by word of mouth? Did Salazar leave something in writing? Geoff Carol: I think he must have communicated with it before he saw it. Harry heard it talking to itself ("Kill! Kill! Kill!" or whatever) as it slithered through pipes. maybe Tom heard it before he saw it and was able to communicate with it, even command it not to harm him. Possibly it was even intelligent enough to recognize him as Slytherin's heir and therefore its master. Maybe he promised it a chance to kill freely if it would obey him. Maybe he took additional precautions never to look it in the eye; it's likely that he knew it was a basilisk before he ever saw it. Diary!Tom was able to command it. The real Tom must have been able to do so as well. Carol From inky_quill at hotmail.com Fri Dec 5 22:53:14 2003 From: inky_quill at hotmail.com (Julie) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 22:53:14 -0000 Subject: The diary and apologies to Carol In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86582 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: >>>> I think you've blended Constance V's scenario with mine and overlooked our respective main points. I was solely concerned with how Lucius obtained the diary, which I thought and still think must have been left at Hogwarts. She suggested that he obtained it from LV during VW1 ... The key point (for me) was that LV would not have taken it with him while he was traveling the WW during 1945-1970. He must have left it behind him somewhere . . . I think we're looking at a different time sequence here. I'm assuming that the diary was left at Hogwarts, so it was either picked up by Lucius long before Godric's Hollow or by Dobby long afterward. The first assumption seems much stronger at this point, as I've already indicated. Whether there were any other possessions, I don't know, >>>>>but they're not really relevant to my argument.<<< Julie: Oh dear, me. I've flubbed my first `join in the conversation' post. Yes, Carol, you are entirely correct, my apologies, I went back and reread the scene as I should have done instead of relying on memory (pause while irons fingers and twists ears). It does look like Tom Riddle left the diary at Hogwarts ("I decided to leave behind a diary, preserving my sixteen-year-old self .") intending it to be found by someone through which Tom could reopen the Chamber of Secrets and "finish Salazar Slytherin's noble work,"which Tom sees as eliminating/killing muggle born wizards (pg. 312 of CoS) Since Rowling doesn't say how Lucius obtained the diary before that day in Diagon Alley, I only meant to offer a possible *alternative* scenario as to how Lucius obtained the diary. I'm sorry I took your discussion out of context. Someone did remove the diary from Hogwarts between 1945 and 1992, from where Tom left it to be found again. Somehow Lucius obtained the diary. It could very well be as you say, that he obtained it either at LV's request as a young student DE or post-Godric's Hollow as an adult. He was after all a governor of the school so one presumes that he would have gone there occasionally for meetings or used the school library or even a guest room in Slytherin while visiting Draco who says (pg. 223 CoS) Lucius knows all about the Chamber opening 50 years before. But Lucius probably wasn't the only Hogwarts student to find Tom Riddle's ideas appealing. And since Tom was already calling himself Lord Voldemort to his intimates while in school there is a whole generation of friends/allies/afraid-not-to-follow wizards that predate the 1970s and Lucius or even the younger Snape. Perhaps there's a Malfoy Grandmother or Grandfather who went to school with Tom? I suspect that from the moment Tom created the persona of Lord Voldemort, he used his charm and existing anti-muggle prejudice to recruit supporters, even if only someone he could cadge lodging from so he didn't have to go back to the orphanage in the summer, or a possible future patron to help finance his Dark Arts studies. Your points for Lucius are all well made. My point was only an attempt to offer a "what if Lucius didn't remove the diary, but obtained it otherwise" type of point. Who else besides Lucius could have removed the diary from Hogwarts. Perhaps even accidentally. Madame Pinch perhaps sent off a seemingly blank diary in a lot of duplicate, worn-out-and-replaced books for the St. Mungo's benefit book sale? Lucius could have used magic to detect the nature and providence of the diary somehow to know was Tom's. Or an adult Voldemort could have told Lucius (during a pre-Godric's Hollow talk) about opening the chamber, and even told him about creating the diary so that when he did come across it he recognized it. We don't know what caused Peter Pettigrew to join the Death-Eaters. Could odd-man-out-Peter have been in the Hogwarts library one day, or exploring in the dungeons, and found a hidden compartment with a certain diary? A diary that whispered that his so-called friends James and Sirius and Remus didn't appreciate him like Tom could? What caused Wormtail to go back to Voldemort --besides the obvious-- instead of hiding again as he had successfully for 12 years? How long does charming diary-Tom keep his hold on those he possesses? The diary is a charming, manipulative bomb with a delayed trigger left behind at Hogwarts. It's a unique entity, everything Tom/LV thought and knew and wanted at age 16. But its plans and motivations belong to a 16 year old Voldemort. If it goes off fine, but the "real" adult Voldemort has moved on from his youthful plan, to a bigger scale?cleanse the whole wizarding world. Does it matter to him if anyone knows about or even uses the diary? Probably not. It's a youthful exercise that I suspect the adult Voldemort has forgotten or disregards. <<>>>> Julie: Apologies, apologies. Again I've been unclear. I didn't mean they were milling around Godric's Hollow, or that the diary or other possessions were found there. Its just that unless Voldemort only owned his wand and the clothes he stood in, he would have left some possessions -?many or only few-- behind when he "died" unexpectedly which I suspect the DEs divvied up. I would expect that even when he was "traveling" around in his study of the dark arts between 1945 and 1970, that Voldemort has some type of home--even if only temporary-- despite moving frequently in his search for power. One must have an owl address for those orders to Knockturn Alley. I don't read travel and wander to equal homeless as in I've no money, no belongings, no place to call my own. Young Tom learned that being without his own place left him vulnerable?hence his attack on Hagrid and his abandonment of the Chamber to avoid loosing his right to stay at Hogwarts. 1945-1970ish Tom is searching out ways to increase his power, and render himself invincible to any threat. He is now an adult. Somehow he's obtaining money (or was there money in trust from his mother/ dad and grandparents? or getting it illegally) to support both his daily living and his research into the Dark Arts--I bet the cost of supplies is shocking. I would imagine that financial stability and a safe lair would be of primary importance to his success in becoming a Dark Lord. Its such a pain to be up all night and half way through conjuring a demon and suddenly realize its time to go to work?and you still have to shave, dress, put the cat out, and apparate over to the Jiffy-mart. Julie who apologies profusely for not reading all the way up the message thread and promises to read properly in the future From caroline at illustratorene.no Fri Dec 5 16:35:39 2003 From: caroline at illustratorene.no (linocow2000) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 16:35:39 -0000 Subject: The Diary (just where did V get it & what is really going on ?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86583 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" < carolynwhite2 at a...> wrote: > One question about the diary that does not seem to have been > discussed, is just how did Tom get hold of it in the first place ? > Yes, Tom, not Lucius. I am intrigued that JKR chooses to emphasise > its origins so specifically: > > 'Harry turned to the back cover of the book and saw the printed name > of a newsagents in Vauxhall Road, London. > 'He must have been Muggle-born,' said Harry thoughtfully, 'to have > bought a diary from Vauxhall Road...' > > Firstly, what was Tom doing shopping in Vauxhall Rd ? Vauxhall Rd is > a long, boring main road running from Victoria Station down out > across the river, usually clogged with heavy traffic. It does have a > few tatty shops, some of which are newsagents, but it is definitely > not a shopping street - it's mainly lined with large dull office > buildings. > <> Now me: And those large, dull office buildings (well, a relatively OK building actually) happen to include the HQ of publishing giant Random House, who presumably sent JK a rejection slip all those years ago... JK repeatedly takes swipes at the media, could this be nothing more complicated than a similar swipe? Could make sense, considering the item in question is a form of book. Linocow From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 5 23:48:41 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 23:48:41 -0000 Subject: Looks aren't everything! (was:Re: Sirius / Severus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86584 "greatlit2003" wrote: Looks aren't everything, it's true. But a good-looking person is > > often given a certain amount of respect from the very beginning. > We don't know what happened in MWPP's first year, but I'm guessing > that kids just were drawn to Sirius because he was handsome and > cool. > > Laura: > > How many 11 year olds do you know whom you would describe as either > handsome or cool? :-) These are young kids at this point. I think > kids of that age are very aware of when something is physically out > of the norm but they have no real way to appreciate great beauty. > That's a little trip we take starting in adolescence (a stage I miss > not at all!). Carol: I disagree. Having been a tall, skinny little girl with glasses who liked reading better than jumping rope, I can tell you that from age five onward kids who are different are picked on and kids who are "cute" are popular with very little effort on their own part (and get away with things that other kids can't). Eleven- and twelve-year-old are already masters of ostracism and teasing. For an example of a child who was unpopular at least in part because of her appearance, we need only look as far as Moaning Myrtle. Snape would have been in much the same position. As long he had older Slytherins to protect him, he could avoid anything worse than the confrontations we see between Draco and Harry (which, admittedly, have no connection with looks), but once Lucius and his friends were gone, James could hex Severus with (relative) impunity just "because he exists"--because he's not cool like you and me, Sirius, because he's skinny and has a big nose and has greasy hair. And, oh, yeah, he's a Slytherin and likes the dark arts. So he's just a git and he deserves what we give him. Severus hexed him back, of course, but not because James "existed." It was because James tormented him and he wanted revenge. Very few kids in his position wouldn't have retaliated if they could do so with nothing worse than the prospect of detention if they did so. When Severus first entered Hogwarts, OTOH, he had no reason to dislike handsome Sirius of the ancient and noble house of Black and athletic, popular James other than that they were Gryffindors. If they had uncharactericteristically offered him the hand of friendship to Severus, ignoring his looks and all the other things they found unattractive about him, I very much doubt that he would not have turned them down. Children need and want to be liked, and they are seldom liked for their intelligence. It's always looks, "personality," and athletic ability. Consider Hermione, who has all of two friends, and Cedric, who was popular throughout the school, even with Slytherins. (Cedric was deservedly popular, but that's beside the point.) Viktor Krum overcame the stigma of unattractive looks simply because he was a genius at quidditch. If Snape had been quidditch captain, he might have developed his own following as Krum did. But being a potions and DADA genius doesn't get you very far in the popularity department. At least not when your older protectors have graduated. Carol Carol From greatraven at hotmail.com Sat Dec 6 00:00:41 2003 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 00:00:41 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86585 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Pensieve" wrote: > > > Me: > I don't doubt that we'll see Harry in NEWT potions, but I also think > that the only reason Harry said he wanted to be an Auror - besides > needing to say 'something' at that moment - is because he still wants > to stay in classes with Ron...that's what Ron had said he'd go for - > if I remember correctly - earlier in OOP. > > Kathy Sue B: I haven't followed much of this thread, but my own opinion here is that, while Harry certainly is very good at DADA, which he's had to learn the hard way, I'd agree here that auror is not necessarily his thing. If he survives the books, will there be much need for aurors anyway? LV will be gone and the aurors will be more or less just a magical police force - and let's face it, he'd be exhausted by then, probably never want to cast another Patronus spell ever again. So - what's wrong with his playing professional Quidditch? This is something he is passionate about and does brilliantly. And it's a lot more fun than facing any potential future Voldemorts! (Sorry if this is wandering a bit off topic, I just can't see the boy as a future auror). As for NEWT Potions, he would need it for auror training, but...er, just how much more do we *really* need of "Potter, fifty points from Gryffindor and wipe up Malfoy's spilt cauldron"? No, let Snape have DADA and find himself having to teach Harry properly, no more messing around, because Harry's life and the wizarding world depend on it. With luck Malfoy will drop DADA and so will any student not wanting to go on to auror training From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 6 00:06:30 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 00:06:30 -0000 Subject: Neville's father's wand (Was:Where Have the Wands Gone?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86586 -Carol wrote: > > The fact that Neville's gran gave him his father's wand brings up > an > > interesting point > > > Neville's father wasn't dead. His mother (Neville's grandmother) > > may have initially kept his wand, not for sentimental reasons > (she > > isn't sentimental and he isn't dead) but in hopes of giving it > > back to her son when he recovered. When he didn't recover after > > ten years, she felt free to give it to Neville. > > > True, Frank Longbottom isn't dead. I didn't mean > to imply that he is. I did use Neville's father's > incapacitation as an example for what happens > to wizards wands after they die, because it was > the closest case I could find. I should have > mentioned this in my post. > > I still feel that Neville inherited his father's > wand, just like I assume he would have if Frank > had died. > > His father has been incapacitated for years, so > something needs to be done with his possessions. > I don't know what the ettiquette is, however > I would hope that the people who were going to > inherit the possessions are the one's who end > up with them. > > Yolanda Yolanda, I know and I agree with you. But I was leading into another thought, that Neville's gran set Frank's wand aside not as a future inheritance for Neville, which would be to acknowledge that Frank was as good as dead, but in hopes of seeing her son recover and returning the wand she had kept for him. The fact that she gave it to Neville after keeping it for ten years suggests that she had finally given up hope of restoring it to him. At that point it became an "inherited" wand, as it would have been if Frank had actually died. Gran still visits her son and daughter-in-law and takes Neville with her when she can, but I think she has finally accepted their condition as permanent. (She may be wrong, but that's another thread.) Carol From kilnkat at rcn.com Fri Dec 5 20:53:29 2003 From: kilnkat at rcn.com (kilnkat) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 20:53:29 -0000 Subject: Questionable Dessert Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86587 Hi Everyone, I'm new to this list, so I thought I'd begin with something minor and concrete, and hold off on the deep philosophy for a while. So... what in the name of a name is "Spotted Dick?" And where did that name come from? I'm guessing something like rice pudding with raisins? I realize that English slang is different from American, it's only us Yanks that would make a connection to a localized male skin condition. But in England, "spots" are pimples, so the mental imagery is still pretty gross. Cheers, Kilnkat ["where cats & clay collide"] From mrsewp at bestweb.net Sat Dec 6 00:35:34 2003 From: mrsewp at bestweb.net (Elizabeth W. Philipbar) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 19:35:34 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) Message-ID: <3fd12456.12799.0@bestweb.net> No: HPFGUIDX 86588 Mel said and I snipped: anyone else besides me here like to see what Snape's like in his Advanced NEWT classes? Bet it's a whole 'nother world in that dungeon. My bet is that he even enjoys those. LauraW then said and I snip: I actually wouldn't be surprised if Harry turns up in Snape's NEWT potions class.?? Reasons:?? Without Snape watching his every move, Harry can do potions just fine in the practical OWL exam.?I predict Harry gets a good grade in his OWL potions exams and Snape is forced to take him into his NEWT class, even though neither is happy about it.?? Elizabeth says in reply to both: I also believe that Harry will somehow ace that Potions OWL and, in turn, "force" Snape into accepting him into the NEWT Potions. McGonagall, as head of house, would be in the position to actually do the "forcing" as Harry would have no leverage against Snape as "merely a student." I would imagine that even despite considerable "bad blood" between Harry and Snape, or with any other teacher and student, there would be very little the teacher could do to "reject" any student who was qualified to take their course, especially since it will be part of his requirements for Aurour training. Snape's argument that "his dad teased me when we were young and then he went and spied on my private shame in the Pensieve" would have little weight with Dumbledore as well. Just my two knuts. Liz From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Dec 6 01:01:33 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 01:01:33 -0000 Subject: Questionable Dessert In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86589 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kilnkat" wrote: > Hi Everyone, I'm new to this list, so I thought I'd begin with > something minor and concrete, and hold off on the deep philosophy for > a while. > > So... what in the name of a name is "Spotted Dick?" And where did > that name come from? I'm guessing something like rice pudding with > raisins? > Geoff: Spotted Dick is a traditional light steamed sponge pudding with raisins, currants and suet, served hot and usually eaten with custard or cream. By an odd coincidence, I was out today for lunch with the team from the village computer centre and I nearly ordered Spotted Dick which was on the menu; chocolate pudding won, however. Just remind me when Spotted Dick turns up - is it at Hogwarts, or something rustled up at the Burrow? Geoff From derek at rhinobunny.com Fri Dec 5 23:25:05 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 15:25:05 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Basilisks (was Re: Bang! You're dead.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031205152011.0254dec0@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86590 >Geoff: >Several weeks go, I raised a point about Fawkes attacking the >basilisk's eyes and not getting killed in COS. [snip] >Carol: >I think he must have communicated with it before he saw it. Harry >heard it talking to itself ("Kill! Kill! Kill!" or whatever) as it >slithered through pipes. Maybe Tom heard it before he saw it and was >able to communicate with it, even command it not to harm him. Derek: Harry only hears it in the pipes after Diary!Tom (through Ginny) awakens it again. He didn't hear it in his entire first year, for example. So I don't think Tom would have heard it by chance; I think he would have had to go into the Chamber and call it forth before it would be gallivanting through the plumbing. :) It seems more likely to me that he simply knew (somehow) what it was and where to find it, and went there prepared to deal with its effects until he could control it. - Derek From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Sat Dec 6 02:10:43 2003 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 02:10:43 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86591 melclaros wrote in message 86562: > I don't know if MgG saw the makings of an auror in Harry or not, if > pushed I'd say not. He's way too impulsive and puts himself and > others in danger routinely. I think that she was so angry with > Umbridge at that moment that she'd have said exactly the same thing > if Neville's Toad had been sat before her desk. The "I'll make you an > auror if it's the last thing I do" statement was aimed far more > towards defying Umbridge than considering Harry's (or Trevor's) > qualifications. I (Yolanda) wrote: I disagree. Harry is impulsive, however he seems to be getting better and Sirius death will only make him more cautious. Harry is 15. How many of us were impulsive at that age, but learned better later? He'll need to change, but that process has already begun. Besides, he does have talents that would suit being an auror. He is a powerful wizard. His patronus proved that. Incidentally, his patronus is DADA which he excels at. Sure he's so good at it, because he needs to be, but that doesn't change the fact that he *is* good at it. Not many third years could produce a patronus that could scare a small hordge of dementors away. In PS/SS, the Sorting Hat said Harry had "not a bad mind" and "talent, oh my goodness, yes". Dumbledore mentioned in CoS that Harry possessed "resourcefulness" and "determination". Sounds like the makings of an auror to me. I agree that McGonagall was standing against Umbridge, but I think she did so, because she knew that Harry DID have the makings of an auror. McGonagall, may have been angry, but I think she was serious about helping Harry to become an auror. It would be a shame really if someone who had an interest and talent in a particular career got sidetracked because of an idiot like Umbridge. Lady Pensieve" wrote: > > I don't doubt that we'll see Harry in NEWT potions, but I also > think > > that the only reason Harry said he wanted to be an Auror - besides > > needing to say 'something' at that moment - is because he still > wants > > to stay in classes with Ron...that's what Ron had said he'd go for > - > > if I remember correctly - earlier in OOP. I (Yolanda) wrote: I don't see him as still following Ron's lead anymore. He definately did so in PS/SS, CoS, and PoA, however he has matured and learned alot more about the WW. He doesn't need Ron as a guide as much as he did when he was younger. > Sue B wrote: > > I haven't followed much of this thread, but my own opinion here is > that, while Harry certainly is very good at DADA, which he's had to > learn the hard way, I'd agree here that auror is not necessarily his > thing. If he survives the books, will there be much need for aurors > anyway? LV will be gone and the aurors will be more or less just a > magical police force - and let's face it, he'd be exhausted by then, > probably never want to cast another Patronus spell ever again. So - > what's wrong with his playing professional Quidditch? This is > something he is passionate about and does brilliantly. And it's a lot > more fun than facing any potential future Voldemorts! The aurors are a magical police force and will still be needed after Voldemort is gone. There will still be dark wizards and for that matter just plain disgruntled ones to deal with. I don't think Harry will be exhausted either. He may need a break, but I doubt he will be so spent magically or emotionally that he'll turn his back on a carreer he's acutally interested in. During all the talk of him becoming an auror during OOtP, I thought about his earlier dream of playing Quidditch. One explanation for dropping the quidditch as a possible career is that his dream was like tons of other little boys dreaming of being quidditch players. Problem with that theory is he's actually quite good at it and still loves the game. I would like to see him do whatever makes him happy. I can see him as either an auror or a professional quidditch player or both. He could play quiddtich, then retire from the game, and after a break go on to become an auror. Yolanda From Zarleycat at aol.com Sat Dec 6 03:23:47 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 03:23:47 -0000 Subject: Harry's weak spot (was:Re: Choices) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86592 > Laura: > > Hi Sophierom-nice post! You know, I think you may have something > really significant there. Harry's Achilles heel has always been his > craving for family and love. That's where the "saving-people- thing" > comes from, imo. The one time he was really tempted to blow off > Hogwarts was when he discovered the Mirror of Erised. He could > easily have stayed sitting in front of it forever had DD not > intervened. Harry is always willing to take chances to learn > something about his parents-even risking Snape's considerable > wrath. Now me, Marianne: I have to disagree here. Harry does crave a family, but IMO he's often unaccountably incurious about his parents. Of course, once he hears from people like Hagrid how wonderful his parents were, he accepts that at face value, which leads him to defend his parents' reputation vehemently when those reputations are attacked, (ie., blowing up Aunt Marge, telling Snape "My father didn't strut!" in PoA). He accepts others' positive impressions of his parents without question. Maybe that's understandable in that it gives him a fantasy of what family should be like, as opposed to what he suffers with the Dursleys. The downside of this is that Harry *believes* that his parents were truly one-dimensionally wonderful, especially James. It comes as a shock to him that his father was not so saintly. And that leads me to one of my problems with OoP. Harry spent a fair amount of time in the same location as Sirius. Yet, there is no canon that they ever talked in depth about Lily and James, that Harry ever took the opportunity to even seek out some time with Sirius to discuss them or ask questions. It strikes a dissonant note with me. It just doesn't seem logical that that would happen. Except, of course, that JKR made Harry the poster boy for "Angry Teen" and Sirius an emotionally roller coaster... Laura: Whereas I see Tom as an actor, I see > Harry as a reactor. (I hope that makes sense.) Tom, raised in an > orphanage until age 11, probably experienced more indifference in > his environment than outright hostility. That indifference would > have allowed him freedom to think about how to escape his > situation. It would have allowed him room to act. But Harry was > always in a hostile situation from the time he arrived at the > Dursleys. His focus was to stay in one piece and protect himself as > best he could. Since he never knew when or how the next attack > might take place, he learned to react. That would have taken all of > his emotional and intellectual energy. Marianne: Actor/reactor makes perfect sense to me. Tom has always struck me as a proactive person, someone who sought from a young age to figure out how to control as much as possible the situation in which he found himself. Whereas Harry, as a child, had to figure out what tactics to take to survive as well as possible with the Dursleys. And he brought that with him to Hogwarts. Harry has never sought to become a leader. He is initially clearly uncomfortable with the idea that he should be the one to teach the students the "DA" in OoP. Whether Harry will grow into more of a leader role, now that he knows the prophecy, or whether he'll seek to be a more active independent operator remains to be seen. Laura: > Harry's time at Hogwarts hasn't freed him of the instincts he > learned living at Privet Drive. He's still reacting rather than > acting. But I can really see him getting into some dangerous > territory in an attempt to reconnect with his parents or bring > Sirius back. I'm not sure he'd trust any DE who offered to help him > with this, but I can imagine him falling into a trap if it was laid > with enough subtlety. Marianne: Hmmmm. It would have to be really subtle. I think Harry is going to have to spend some quality insomnia time dealing with the part his own actions played in Sirius' death. I wonder if Book 6 will show us a Harry who swings too far in the other direction. Rather than rushing in, in his typical "saving people" persona, what if Harry chooses to hold himself back in an attempt to compensate for that tendency, and ends up not acting when he should? Marianne From AllieS426 at aol.com Sat Dec 6 04:00:01 2003 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 04:00:01 -0000 Subject: Is Hogwarts So Safe? / The Chamber Pot/Mirror/Requirement Room In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86593 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "thelinnealand" wrote: > I have read numerous accounts here that reiterate DDs claim that > Hogwarts provides protection for those who are within its walls. > Codswallop, I say. > > It was I who postulated that the Mirror of Erised may have been hidden > in the Room of Requirement, possibly also before DD deduced the rooms > unique abilities, back in post #86320. > What jumped out at me reading your post is the room of requirement, which we have met twice now (first as the Chamber Pot room), which usually indicates importance... suppose LV does make his way inside Hogwarts (again), and Harry runs by the room of requirement 3 times while REQUIRING a way to vanquish LV for good???? Allie From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sat Dec 6 07:34:42 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 02:34:42 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86594 In a message dated 12/5/2003 10:06:17 AM Pacific Standard Time, melclaros at yahoo.com writes: > >Carol: > >I think so, too. McGonagall seemed to think he had the makings of an > >auror, and I think that's the direction we'll see him and Hermione > and > >possibly even Ron going in Books 6 and 7. But I have another > personal > >and highly uncanonical reason for thinking that Harry (and Hermione, > >at least) will be in Snape's Potions class: I can't imagine JKR > >depriving herself and us of the pleasure of reading the Harry/Snape > >scenes. So unless Snape becomes the DADA teacher (in which case > he'll > >still have Harry as his student), Harry will be in advanced potions. > >Maybe, to Snape's enormous dissatisfaction, Neville will be, too. > > Cassie Here: I wonder if Harry's new found, stronger hatred towards Snape will block him from achieving his goal to be an Auror. I mean, Harry does blame Snape for Sirius's death. And I imagine he's not going to decide to forgive and forget over the summer. I can imagine Harry wanting to drop NEWT Potions even if he get in just so he wouldn't have to be in the same room with Snape. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Dec 6 11:42:21 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 11:42:21 -0000 Subject: THe nature of the Unforgivables(was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bang!You're dead.) In-Reply-To: <1070633156.21263.27.camel@Bujold_RH> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86595 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Angel Moules > > Angel: > The problem is that Quirrellmort wasn't an impostor, he merely had more > attached to him than one might expect. > > Crouch jnr was involved in the torture of the longbottoms, and Neville > would have known that. I'm merely wondering how the focus of hatred > works. > I suspect that hatred would not be enough. Crouch!Moody also says that "AK's a curse that needs a powerful bit of magic behind it" and that he's "not going to teach them how to do it." Presumably the same sort of conditions apply to the other two 'unforgivables' as well. A user would need to learn them and the wizard needs to have more than average power to cast them successfully. So it's a bit more than just waving a wand and saying Crucio!. The question then arises, when and where did Harry learn the basics of the Crucio! curse? Another bit of Voldy to go along with his Parceltongue gift? Kneasy From patientx3 at aol.com Sat Dec 6 14:49:23 2003 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 14:49:23 -0000 Subject: Looks aren't everything! (was:Re: Sirius / Severus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86596 Carol Wrote: >>When Severus first entered Hogwarts, OTOH, he had no reason to dislike handsome Sirius of the ancient and noble house of Black and athletic, popular James other than that they were Gryffindors. If they had uncharactericteristically offered him the hand of friendship to Severus, ignoring his looks and all the other things they found unattractive about him, I very much doubt that he would not have turned them down. Children need and want to be liked, and they are seldom liked for their intelligence. It's always looks, "personality," and athletic ability.<< HunterGreen: I have to add one thing to that: money. I was agreeing with this whole theory of appearence and popularity until I applied it to my own high school. Most of the popular people weren't all that good-looking. Granted, they spent A LOT of time working on their appearence (hair, clothes, makeup, fake tans, etc.) but generally very few of them had any 'natural beauty'. The tying factor in popularity seemed to be more about money than anything else...which of course still applies to this situation. Its hard to really gage what determines popularity in Hogwarts, because there simply aren't too many examples of it. In the present time we really only have Cedric, and that was probably based on a combination of things (he certainly was quite a hero for Hufflepuff, who never has any sort of glory, so I'm sure everyone from his house liked him, and the rest could come from being a pure-blood, being good-looking, and being a good quidditch player). In the past we have Sirius and James, who were trouble-makers, pure-bloods, handsome and wealthy. greatlit: >>I don't think that Sirius shook off everything that his family taught him when he ran away. Even as an adult, he has arrogance, pride, a strong, rebellious personality. [snip] I think Sirius just rejected the whole notion of pure-blood superiority because he didn't want his parents to control who he became friends with. But he retained many other Black family qualities. Laura: >> [snip] I agree with you that part of Sirius's reaction to his parents as an adolescent was his desire to choose his own friends. But that begs the question, why wasn't he in Slytherin in the first place, like all the rest of the Blacks? Something had to be in him that differentiated him at his core. << HunterGreen: Why would it have to be from his core? Couldn't a pure-blood enthusiast also be extremely brave but not particularily ambitious? You only have to *be* pureblood for slytherin, not be a proponent of it. Sirius said himself that his parents didn't agree with how far Voldemort was willing to go, that's not exactly going to any means to achieve their goals is it? (I am really starting to wonder why Percy isn't in Slytherin, there has to be a strong element of choice with the sorting hat). Not even Draco was *postive* he'd be put in Slytherin, and the only house he'd be upset with is Hufflepuff. I'll consent that the two houses dislike each other, but that doesn't mean that a strong pureblood, muggle-hating family couldn't have a kid in Gryffindor who *hadn't* renounced them. Personally, I think Sirius was in Gryffindor because he's far more brave than he is ambitious (with the amount of loyalty he has to the Potters, I can *almost* see him being a good candidate for hufflepuff, what a shock *that* would have been to the family). -HunterGreen. From angelofthenorth at cantab.net Sat Dec 6 13:07:38 2003 From: angelofthenorth at cantab.net (Angel Moules) Date: 06 Dec 2003 13:07:38 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: <3fd12456.12799.0@bestweb.net> References: <3fd12456.12799.0@bestweb.net> Message-ID: <1070716061.23572.27.camel@Bujold_RH> No: HPFGUIDX 86597 Elizabeth says in reply to both: I also believe that Harry will somehow ace that Potions OWL and, in turn, "force" Snape into accepting him into the NEWT Potions. McGonagall, as head of house, would be in the position to actually do the "forcing" as Harry would have no leverage against Snape as "merely a student." I would imagine that even despite considerable "bad blood" between Harry and Snape, or with any other teacher and student, there would be very little the teacher could do to "reject" any student who was qualified to take their course, especially since it will be part of his requirements for Aurour training. Snape's argument that "his dad teased me when we were young and then he went and spied on my private shame in the Pensieve" would have little weight with Dumbledore as well. Angel comments: Actually, that last section would have quite a lot of force. Snape can argue to DD that Harry can't be trusted with Occlumency, and is in fact downright dangerous, meddling in things that don't concern him. I rather think there's some horsetrading between the heads of houses over who does which subject and with whom. Angel From derek at rhinobunny.com Sat Dec 6 08:56:59 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 00:56:59 -0800 Subject: Harry, Parseltongue, and the Basilisk Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031206003710.024a2390@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86598 As a new list member, I've been reading a lot of the material the group refers to, such as the Fantastic Posts section, Hypothetic Alley, the Harry Potter Lexicon, and so on. I found the following about Harry and the Basilisk in an essay by Steve Vander Ark in the Puzzles and Mysteries section of the HPL... (Now from Steve Vander Ark's essay): "Why didn't Harry talk Parseltongue to the Basilisk? Good question. There are a couple of times in the books where Harry seems to ignore the obvious solution." [snip] "Here's actually a perfectly good solution to this mystery: he's a kid, facing unimaginable danger or major stress, and he just doesn't think it all through." (Now back to Derek): That's a totally valid point to make in general, especially in the early books, and could certainly be the case here as well. However, in the specific case of the Basilisk, I offer another idea for why Harry didn't speak Parseltongue to it... Throughout CoS, many -- even including Harry himself in some ways -- suspect him of being the Heir of Slytherin because he's a Parselmouth. He knows Salazar Slytherin was a Parselmouth too, and still wonders whether the sorting hat made a mistake putting him in Gryffindor. Now, in the chamber, he learns that Tom Riddle is really Lord Voldemort, and that *he* is a Parselmouth as well. With all this as the background, I suggest that it's possible Harry didn't just fail to think of trying to speak Parseltongue to the Basilisk, nor fail to try it because he didn't think he could command it. Instead, perhaps he failed to try because he was afraid he *could* command it... This would have been subconscious, of course. But the last thing Harry would have wanted right then would be further reinforcement of the idea that he was similar the murderer of his parents and the founder of the hated Slytherins. If Harry *had* been able to command the Basilisk, it would have carried a great many unpleasant ramifications for him... - Derek From houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Sat Dec 6 17:15:23 2003 From: houseofbohacek at earthlink.net (Gail Bohacek) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 12:15:23 -0500 Subject: (FILKS) Two More Little Shop Filks (Long) Message-ID: <410-220031266171523468@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 86599 I'll Give You Help *and* Potter/Git Him (Two filks to the tunes of _Mushnik and Son_ and _Feed Me / Git It_ from the musical _Little Shop of Horrors_) The song _Mushnik and Son_ is my favorite one out of this whole musical, but unfortunately there isn't a Midi for it. You can find a Midi for _Feed Me_ here: http://addagirl.com/littleshop.htm ************************************************************************************ (End of filk _Harry Stoled the Show_ http://home.att.net/~coriolan/muscial/tournament.htm#Harry_Stoled_The_Show ) (During the audience applause, Alicia, Katie, Angelina, Ron and Hermione stand around Harry and congratulate him. Enter from stage right several Goblins who pantomime a heated conversation with Bagman who tries to remain calm. The Goblins exit. Bagman looks nervous and listens in on the students talking. ) Ron: What is this Egg, Harry? Harry: It's supposed to give us a clue for the Second Task. Hermione: Well, you should work on finding that clue as soon as possible! Ron: Get off it, Hermione, Harry has plenty of time. Angelina: Besides, we have a celebration waiting for Harry up in the Gryffindor Common Room. Everybody is waiting for us...let's go! (All the students start to exit, stage left.) Bagman: Harry! (All students, except for Harry exit) Harry: Sir? Bagman: (Putting on the smarm): Harry! (Cue music for _I'll Give You Help_) How would you like to have some help? How would you like for me to tell you what is next? (He has to win Tasks Two and Three Because I lost a gambl'ng spree Now the Goblins want their money) Say yes Harry: Who me? Bagman: Harry, I want to see you win I want to see you holding up the Winner's Cup Harry: But what about Ced, Krum and Fluer? Perhaps your motives aren't that pure I'm not too sure I want your help Bagman: Don't be demure, just take my help If you want help, just ask You'll get past the Second Task Then in glory you will bask, Harry This way you'll win with ease Accept, don't reject me please For Hogwart's you'll seize the victory Now don't you worry, I'm a Judge If you take my offer Then I will glady show And when I do, you'll have a leg Up on what is inside that Egg So let me assist Harry: I don't know... Bagman: Bagman will give this clue Because I really like you And all you have to do is just yelp I swear that my motives Are nothing but positive Harry: I'm indecisive Bagman: Don't be unsportive Harry: (Boy, he's assertive!) Bagman (Harry): I'll (He'll) give you (me) help! (Bagman tangos off stage right) (Cue music for _Trouble Seems_) Harry: Trouble seems to pursue me Everything happens to me I don't know why, but it always ends up that way They call me a Champion I just wish I could be done Then my life would return to normal But until then, I'm told I must play (spoken as lights dim, spotlight on Harry): That First Task was really dangerous. Maybe Moody is right...maybe somebody *is* out to get me. I keep remembering that dream I had...back at the Dursley's... (curtain rises to reveal the room at the Riddle Manor. Baby!Mort (played by a puppet, of course) is sitting on a high backed chair and Wormtail is standing close by) ...it seemed so real. A small man called Peter, nicknamed Wormtail...and a cold, high voice...the voice of Lord Voldemort...there were talking about someone they had killed...and they were plotting to kill someone else...me. I remember Wormtail said: Wormtail: Your Lordship is still determined, then? Voldemort: Certainly I am determined, Wormtail. Wormtail (spoken in a rush): It could be done without Harry Potter, my Lord. Voldemort: Without Harry Potter? I see... Wormtail: My Lord, I do not say this out of concern out of the boy! The boy means nothing to me, nothing at all! It is merely that if were were to use another witch or wizard - any wizard - the thing could be done so much more quickly! Voldemort: I need blood! Wormtail: But, my Lord... Voldemort: Must be *his*! Wormtail: I don't think it's a good idea... (Cue music for _Potter / Git Him_) Voldemort: Potter! Wormtail (spoken) Does it *have* to be Harry? Voldemort: Potter! Wormtail (spoken) It could be anyone! Voldemort: Potter! Wormtail: (spoken) How are we supposed to get him? Voldemort: Potter, Wormtail, he's the one I need That's right, Pete! Gotta git him! Potter, Wormtail Want to see him bleed (Bwha, ha, ha, ha!) 'Cause with Potter's blood, Wormtail All of my plans will succeed Wormtail: (spoken): If you allowed me to leave you for a short while I could be back here in as little as two days with a suitable person - Voldemort : (spoken) Hmmm....could this suggestion of abandoning the plan be nothing more than an attempt to desert me? Wormtail: (spoken) No! My devotion to your Lordship! Voldemort: (spoken) Your devotion is nothing more than cowardice! Silence! I have my reasons for using the boy, Wormtail, and I will use no other. (singing): Thirteen years I've waited for this Powers gone and bodiless Only one thing has given me solace That I'll git him (mmmmm!) Add father's bone to the potion Then flesh offered in devotion His blood will set things in motion We have to git him! Defeated by mother's love This is what I learned Curse deflected by him, but Somehow I survived Though I was barely alive But pretty soon they'll know that I've Returned! Come on, Wormtail, don't be a schlemiel Everything is perfect and the timing's ideal Better find some courage or my wrath you will feel We will git him! Wormtail (Voldemort, spoken): But Dark Lord ( C'mon, Pete!) Oh, Dark Lord (Lighten up!) I'll be forward (Tell it to the Aurors) And tell you that the prospect's slim (Cut the crap and bring me the boy!) There are hordes (My, my, my) Of wizards (Uh-huh?) Who protect him Voldemort: (spoken) Bwha ha ha ha...let me 'splain...mmmmm...? (singing): All we need is just one more curse Potter will be riding in the back of a hearse With my faithful servant let your worries disburse We will git him Wormtail: Aren't I faithful servant too? I brought Bertha Jorkins to you It's just that I have a little issue... Voldemort: We will git him! (Enter Nagini) If you really have the itch If you want to prove where you now stand I'll let you do something which Many would love to give me their right hand (Spoken): Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute...(listens to Nagini) Nagini has interesting news, Wormtail. According to her, there is an old Muggle standing right outside this room listening to every word we say. (Wormtail, with a mixture of fear and alarm goes to the door and opens it, revealing Frank Bryce behind it. Wormtail grabs him and drags him into the room) Voldemort: You heard everything, Muggle? Frank Bryce: I know I've heard enough to interest the police tonight, I have. You've done murder and you're planning more! And I'll tell you this, too...my wife knows I'm up here, and if don't come back - Voldemort: You have no wife. Nobody knows where you are. You told nobody you were coming. Do not lie to Lord Voldemort, Muggle, for he knows...he always knows... Frank Bryce: Is that right? Lord is it? Well, I don't think much of your manners, "my Lord". Turn around and face me like a man, why don't you? Voldemort: But I am not a man, Muggle. I am much, much more than a man. However...why not? I will face you...Wormtail, come turn my chair around (Wormtail whimpers) You heard me, Wormtail! (Wormtail takes the chair and turns it around and Frank Bryce lets out a scream. Voldemort lifts up his wand and with a flash of green light Frank Bryce falls to the floor dead. Wormtail looks horrified and realizes that he should no longer argue with the Dark Lord) Voldemort (Wormtail): (singing) Now you ( I ) know who's in control You ( I ) better do what I have (he has) said Will will accomplish our goal: Harry Potter is as good as dead Harry Potter is as good as dead Harry Potter is as good as dead Wormtail: We'll mix up a magical brew Voldemort: Put me in it an' then I'll have a body that's new Wormtail: You need blood and only Potter's will do Voldemort: I need blood and only Potter's will do Voldemort (Wormtail) : I ( You ) need blood and only Potter's will do Voldemort: So let's git him! -Gail B...*whew* houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Why Wait? Move to EarthLink. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sat Dec 6 17:23:07 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 17:23:07 -0000 Subject: FILK: Bye-bye Elf Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86600 Bye-bye Elf To the tune of Bye-Bye Love by the Everly Brothers Hear a MIDI at: http://www.hamienet.com/cat2310.html Dedicated to Maria THE SCENE: The Malfoy Estate, the summer of 1993. LUCIUS breaks the news to NARCISSA that they will be henceforth deprived of house-elf services. LUCIUS & NARCISSA Bye bye, elf. Bye bye, cleanliness Hello, what a mess I think that I see grime Bye bye, elf. Bye bye, posh address. Domestic distress Will drive us both awry-ry Bye bye, our elf, goodby-ye. LUCIUS There goes our Dobby Far from our street That Potter gave him Socks for his feet. He was our servant 'Til he got threads Goodbye to breakfasts He served in bed. LUCIUS & NARCISSA Bye bye, elf. Bye bye, cleanliness Hello, what a mess I think that I see grime Bye bye, elf. Bye bye, flashiness Hello, moldiness. We can't keep this house dry-y NARCISSA Our home once sparkled. With flair and grace. Soon it will look like 12 Grimmauld Place Why must our home turn To a latrine? Because no Malfoy Knows how to clean LUCIUS & NARCISSA Bye bye, elf. Bye bye, loftiness Hello, tawdriness. Good help's hard to come by-y. Bye bye, elf. Bye bye, loveliness. Hello, shoddiness. Let's give this mop a try-y Bye bye, our elf, goodby-ye. Bye bye, our elf, goodby-ye. Bye bye, our elf, goodby-ye. (LUCIUS & NARCISSA spend several hours trying to charm a mop into cleaning the floor on its own, before realizing they are using a spell from a discarded "Fantasia" script) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From kimberley42 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 6 17:20:32 2003 From: kimberley42 at yahoo.com (Kim) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 17:20:32 -0000 Subject: Frankly, my dear Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86601 Since JKR has such a fascination for names, and a vivid imagination for coming up with them in her novels, is there any significance to the fact that there are two characters named "Frank": Frank Bryce, the Riddle's gardener, and Frank Longbottom, Neville's father? Or is this just a coincidence, using a very common first name more than once? ---Kimberley From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Dec 6 18:59:55 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 18:59:55 -0000 Subject: Harry, Parseltongue, and the Basilisk In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031206003710.024a2390@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86602 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Derek Hiemforth wrote: > > Derek commenting on HP Lexicon: > ..., in the ... case of the Basilisk, I offer another idea for why > Harry didn't speak Parseltongue to it... > > Throughout CoS, many .... suspect him of being the Heir of Slytherin > because he's a Parselmouth. ... Salazar Slytherin was a > Parselmouth too, and (Harry) ... wonders whether the sorting hat > made a mistake putting him in Gryffindor. Now, ..., he learns that > Tom Riddle is ... Lord Voldemort, and ... a Parselmouth.... > > ..., ... it's possible Harry didn't just fail to think of trying to > speak Parseltongue to the Basilisk, nor fail to try it because he > didn't think he could command it (the Basilisk). > bboy_mn: Two very good point (one above and one below). Regarding the first point above, remember that Harry only speaks parseltongue instinctively, he has no intelectual knowledge of the language. When he and Ron are in the bathroom at the entrance to the Chamber, Harry says 'Open' then turn to Ron for confirmation. This first time Harry tries, Ron tells him he is speaking English, so Harry concentrates very very hard, and gives it another try. So Harry shifting to Parseltongue is not like the average bi-lingual person switching from English to Spanish; he doesn't simple substitute alternate words for what he wants to say, "Buenos dias, Como esta?" for "Good day, how are you?". When Harry speaks Parseltongue he is not aware of it, and can't intellecutally translate between the languages. That makes it very difficult in a high stress situation to think of what to say in a language that he has no intellectual knowledge of. The process is also complicated by trying to reason with a beast that does not necessarily have good reasoning skills. Presenting the logical argument of 'I'm the good guy, listen to me, not Riddle' probably doesn't carry much weight with a giant snake. Even if I was a moderately good Spanish language student, I think I would be a little hesitant wandering around Spain on my own trying to speak to people. If those people were brutal, ruthless, and in the process of trying to murder me, I think I would be very hesitant to test my language skills at that time. So, Harry not speaking Parseltongue, all things considered, makes perfect sense to me. > Derek continues: > Instead, perhaps he failed to try because he was afraid he *could* > command it... > > This would have been subconscious, of course. But the last thing > Harry would have wanted right then would be further reinforcement of > the idea that he was ... Slytherins. If Harry *had* been able to > command the Basilisk, it would have carried a great many unpleasant > ramifications for him... > > - Derek bboy_mn: As much as I think Harry's lack of functional ability in Parseltongue is the truest reason, I can't deny that 'House of Slytherin Phobia' played a part. Certainly, Harry's Parseltongue ability, and his almost placement in Slytherin would have created an underlying subconcious fear of himself; a fear that he might be something he desparately does not want to be. As much as I think there are other explainations, your idea of Harry having a subconcious fear and insecurity is true in combination with all those other circumstances. It's an underlying truth that is always there regardless of other explainations. Just a thought. bboy_mn From riberam at glue.umd.edu Sat Dec 6 19:43:28 2003 From: riberam at glue.umd.edu (Maria Ribera) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 14:43:28 -0500 Subject: Filks: Harry, my dear and Knight Bus Message-ID: <76EE73C4-2824-11D8-B46E-000393987376@glue.umd.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 86603 Since the songs have been quickly and efficiently filked by my fellow Beatles fans Pixieberry and Gail B., i don't know if i qualify for the Filk Maven First Class award. Still, i have made the effort, so i will share it with all of you. I want to dedicate these two filks to Gail B., for being such an amazing Beatles filker, to Caius Marcus, for the challenge, and specially to PixieBerry, for the contributions and support. Harry, My Dear --------------------- To the tune of Martha, My Dear, by The Beatles. A midi can be heard here: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4552/martha.mid Harry is lying in bed at the hospital wing, after fighting Lord Voldemort in the graveyard. Molly Weasley is tending to him. MOLLY: Harry, my dear though you fought to death with Voldemort Please you have to rest, be a good boy listen to me, Harry my dear Lie your head back. Nurse Pomfrey said you need to rest. if you drink this potion for sleepless dreams you'll forget the pain until you're all recovered now you rest. Stop, do not look around you Close your eyes, Ron is here for you Hermione too, and that black dog Dumbledore sent. Take off your glasses, i'll put them there, and lay your head. When you left the maze with Diggory You looked so bad I thought that we would surely lose you, now you rest. Harry, my dear, Dumbledore said you've gone through such an ordeal Please listen to him, you need to sleep I'll watch over you, Harry my dear. Knight Bus --------------- To the tune of Good Night, by The One and Only Billy Shears. A midi can be heard here: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4552/goodnite.mid Harry has just left number 4 Privet Drive, after inflating aunt Marge. As he finds himself in the street, alone, he wonders... HARRY: I ran out of Privet drive they got me mad. Floating high was aunt Marge like a huge fly. Now i will be expelled.... now where will i stay... I saw something in the dark t'was huge and black i fell over my trunk flat on my back. As i fell, my arm reached out with my wand. Flashing lights point at me Knight Bus is here Stan Shunpike and Ernie they welcome me. I'll go to London The Leaky Cauldron. Knight Bus, Knight Bus will take me Anytime, anywhere Knight Bus. They are not of the quality of the expert filkers, but they are my first ones (come on, Revolution number 9 doesn't count). Maria From jkscherme at adelphia.net Sat Dec 6 19:59:57 2003 From: jkscherme at adelphia.net (Kristen) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 19:59:57 -0000 Subject: Overturning the prophecy (was Re: Choices)? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031205003337.024aeec0@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86604 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Derek Hiemforth wrote: > >Madeyesgal: > > > >How about this? A battle between LV and Harry ensues. Harry manages > >to disarm LV and retrieves his wand. Defenseless, LV calls upon a > >nearby dementor to kill Harry. Harry conjures up his Patronus and > >fends off the dementor. Foiled, disappointed and looking for a > >victim, the dementor turns to the defenseless LV. Harry, watches the > >dementor administer the kiss without lifting a wand to stop it. So, > >Harry doesn't lose his powers or kill LV, but LV is vanquished and no > >longer a threat to anyone ever again. Frankly, I think this is a > >great ending! > > Derek: > The rub here, though, is that the prophecy says that "either must > die at the hand of the other." If a Dementor killed LV, then he > wouldn't have died at Harry's hand. > > In fact, it might even be read as meaning that one will kill the > other *physically* in some way instead of via spell. If Harry is > in fact descended from Godric Gryffindor (and I suspect he is, > given the "Godric's Hollow" name of his parent's home), I wouldn't > be too surprised if he were to slay LV with Gryffindor's sword... > > Derek madeyesgal: Derek: Suppose the prophecy isn't correct. Free will always plays into future events, especially when the outcome is supposed to be known. Harry can vanquish Voldemort, which would be a fate worse than death to Voldemort. In OOTP there is a conversation between Dumbledore and Voldemort: "There is nothing worse than death, Dumbledore!" LV "You are quite wrong... Indeed your failure to understand that there are things much worse than death has always been your greatest weakness-" DD In my scenario, Harry does nothing to stop the dementor from destroying Voldemort. Voldemort is still alive...Dementors do not kill, just suck out the soul; leaving a souless hull of a body to live without hope. >From what I've been reading in many of the discussions regarding the prophecy, most readers are not convinced that the prophecy is accurate or interpreted accurately. It's entirely possible that Neville is the prophesied Voldemort destroyer. Maybe he's killed during the fight and Harry actually defeats Voldemort in the manner I suggested earlier. There are many ways to end this story without killing Harry and still fulfill the prophecy (and remember it's Trellawny who prophesied it in the first place...she could be a little fuzzy about the facts.) And...Harry could kill LV with Gryffindor's sword. Your ending is as good an any other. Madeyesgal (convinced that Snape will turn out to be a hero) From jkscherme at adelphia.net Sat Dec 6 20:12:51 2003 From: jkscherme at adelphia.net (Kristen) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 20:12:51 -0000 Subject: Overturning the prophecy (was Re: Choices)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86605 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rach9112000" wrote: > --- > > > > Sophierom: > > > > > What if, instead, there were someway that Harry > > could cause LV to lose his powers, thereby defeating him without > > killing him? Granted, this goes completely against the prophesy, > > which clearly states that "either must die at the hand of the > other > > for neither can live while the other survives" (OOTP, UK ed. 741). > > But, as Iris has suggested, maybe Harry has the power to > make "that > > blasted prophecy lie" (post #86512). > > admit, that's a sort of cheap way out of the whole thing ... any > > ideas about ways that Harry could take the high road but still > live > > in a Voldie free world? Or do you think that Harry must kill LV in > > order to go on with the rest of his life? > > > Rachel: > Just a small note that JKR might have been trying to give a hint > in the scene after the prophecy has smashed in OOtP (british version > pg 814) between DD and Voldie: > > "You do not seek to kill me dumbledore?..." - Voldie > > "We both know that there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom... > Merely taking your life would not satisfy me, I admit-" - DD > > "There is nothing worse than death, Dumbledore!" - Voldie. > > "You are quite wrong... Indeed your failure to understand that there > are things much worse than death has always been you greatest > weakness-" - DD. > > Perhaps JKR is trying to open our minds to an alternative ending > for Voldie and Harry other than the death of one of them? Just a > thought. > > Rachel madeyesgal: In an earlier post, I (tongue in cheeck) suggested that Harry and LV fight it out in the end, Harry disarm LV and in the end a dementor administers the "kiss" to Voldmort. With all of the bizarre endings being suggested, I thought I'd throw in my two-cents worth. After reading your post, I'm beginning to think that my ending isn't so bizarre or silly after all. So I'm posing it again: Suppose this: Harry and Voldemort are in a duel in the end. Harry is, somehow, able to disarm Voldmort. Voldmort calls upon a dementor to "kill" Harry. Harry conjurs up a Patronus and defeats the dementor. Frustrated and still "hungry" the dementor turns on the defensless Voldemort. Harry, watching from the sideline, does nothing to stop the dementor and it administers the kiss to Voldemort. Voldemort is left "alive," souless and without hope. Couldn't this be what Dumbledore was talking about..."there are things much worse than death...? Voldemort is vanquished; Harry is alive and still has his powers. With no more "bad guys" to fight, he can settle down and live his life in a normal way (for a wizard that is). madeyesgal (convinced that Snape will be a hero) From htfulcher at comcast.net Sat Dec 6 21:17:51 2003 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 21:17:51 -0000 Subject: Page 519 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86606 An article on the EDP24 website http://www.edp24.co.uk/Content/Community/Thetford/Story.asp? Brand=EDPONLINE&Category=COMMUNITY&ItemId=NOED05+Dec+2003+11:28:05:76 0 notes that a dyslexic fan of Harry Potter was reading OoP while listening along to the UK audo book and noted three phrases have been changed, a sentence was missing and "one whole paragraph on page 519 had been completely cut from the tape." The article confirms that these changes and omissions were made at JKR's request. My question: Does anyone know which paragraph was omitted? What about the other altered or deleted material? It strikes me that this could possibly alter our assessments of clues, etc., for the final two books. Thanks! MarEphraim From kilnkat at rcn.com Sat Dec 6 03:27:49 2003 From: kilnkat at rcn.com (kilnkat) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 03:27:49 -0000 Subject: spotted Dick [Was Questionable dessert] Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86607 Geoff asked: > Just remind me when > Spotted Dick turns up - is it at Hogwarts, > or something rustled up at the Burrow? At one of the Hogwarts feasts [GoF?] Ron [naturally] mentions it, along with chocolate gateau. Thanks, Geoff, I've really wondered about that one. Sounds yummy. kilnkat From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Dec 6 13:30:16 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 13:30:16 -0000 Subject: Bang! You're dead In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031205152011.0254dec0@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86608 Geoff: For a couple of days, I have been thinking about, first, the way in which people from the same or similar backgrounds react in totally different ways and, second, the question of Harry needing to kill Voldemort to fulfil, as one poster put it, "that blasted prophecy". My thoughts came into focus a little more when I went back to a book I have mentioned on a couple of previous occasions, "The Weirdstone of Brisingamen" by Alan Garner. I need to briefly outline a little of the plot because it is germane to my points re Harry. It is one of two linked books, the other being "The Moon of Gomrath", both fairly short, being about 200pp each, published about 1960. Garner wrote a number of children's books around that time, all with magical themes. Weirdstone is based on an old legend set around Alderley Edge in the north of England, just south of Manchester and involves an overlap between a magical world and the real world and two children caught up in it. They have unknowingly come into possession of a powerful magical object ? Firefrost, or the Weirdstone ? and as a result meet Cadellin, who is a wizard of High Magic. They become enmeshed in a battle between High Magic and evil forces, led by a hooded and cowled villain Grimnir (not unlike a Dementor). The stone is stolen and they are involved in a plan to regain it and journey meet with Cadellin in a place of safety. He is not with them to begin with (sound familiar?) but when they come to a confrontation with Grimnir which could lead to a devastating outcome, Cadellin arrives and hurls a double edged sword to stop Grimnir who is injured and dies as a result. As he dies, Cadellin removes his hood and Grimnir is revealed to be his brother Govannon. He weeps "Oh, my brother! This is the peak of the sorrow of all my years. That it should come to this! And at my hand!" I hadn't read this book for several years and had forgotten this section. Immediately, my mind connected with Harry's problem with Voldemort and the need apparently to kill him. In Weirdstone, Cadellin had to stop Govannon by the quickest means available at that point and, in so doing killed him, not necessarily intentionally. Perhaps this is a way in which we might see Harry dealing with Voldemort ? by killing him in the middle of a confrontation to stop him. On a second thought, in over 30 years of teaching teenagers and with a continuing connection with boys' club work in my church, I have often been surprised by the way in which two members of the same family can go in totally different ways as a reaction to similar events. Out of this story, Cadellin and Govannon were brothers brought up together yet who decided to follow different paths, one choosing to descend into evil, the other following the path of High Magic. In the Potterverse, Tom Riddle and Harry share similar backgrounds. Both are orphaned at an early age; both have deprived and unhappy childhoods as a result. At some point both receive letters from Hogwarts and thus discover their wizarding heritage and either become, or seem destined to become, powerful wizards. And there, their destinies diverge. Tom allows hatred and envy to govern what he does and descend into the Dark Arts to become Voldemort while Harry revels in his new found life and freedom and friends and opens up as an outward looking young man. OK, so he is flawed like any human being but with a generally positive view. I was also reminded of Boromir and Faramir in LOTR. Boromir is not basically evil, but the seductive influence of the Ring draws him towards evil ? with the best of intentions ? and he finally realises that it has betrayed him and led indirectly to his death. Faramir is sensible enough to see the corrosive effect of the Ring o n personalities and is wise enough to let Frodo go. This brings us backs inevitably to Dumbledore's oft quoted remarks: "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." (COS "Dobby's Reward" p.245 UK edition) Voldemort has become loveless, self-seeking, power-hungry, quite prepared to destroy an innocent such as Ginny to achieve his own ends. Harry, although he displays most of the varying emotions of a growing boy, has at base an empathy for others. Look at his reaction to being told about the Longbottoms "He often got sympathy from strangers for being an orphan but as he listened to Neville's snores, he thought that Neville deserved it more than he did. Lying in the darkness Harry felt a rush of anger and hate towards the people who had tortured Mr. and Mrs. Longbottom . .it was Voldemort, Harry thought, staring up at the canopy of his bed in the darkness, it all came back to Voldemort he was the one who had torn these families apart, who had ruined all these lives ." (GOF "The Third Task" pp.527/8 UK edition) Despite the anger and the hormones, he is basically a very moral person; here perhaps is where we might see Harry seeing the need to kill Voldemort. It harks back to what I said recently, if I might quote my own message 86237 again: I can agree with Christians in the Confessing Church in Germany who were prepared to join in the 1944 conspiracy against Hitler because it seemed to be the only thing to stop the Nazis going into oblivion and pulling the whole country down with them. But there is a difference between those folk who allow themselves to be drawn in the direction of the evil which they fight and replace one form of oppression with another - Communist Russia for example - with those who reluctantly take that path because they echo Luther's words "Here I stand, I can do no other". Geoff From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Sat Dec 6 18:02:16 2003 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 18:02:16 -0000 Subject: Did James and Lily know about the prophecy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86609 Pixieberry wrote: > I know James and Lily went into hiding > presumably because they knew LV was > after them. But did they know about > the prophecy and realize the danger > Harry was in as well? Iris wrote: > They were friends with Dumbledore, who knew about the prophecy, and > apparently they trusted him. He could tell them to hide because they > were in danger because of Voldemort, but he didn't need necessarily > to tell them the whole truth. Voldemort was dangerous and they had a > baby who needed protection, like every baby does: Harry was their > weak point and it was enough to go into hiding. Of course, that's > only a point of view. Madmaxime: I guess my question is - why would Dumbledore not inform them about the prophecy? Especially considering it's implications, wouldn't it seem very irresponsible not to tell them? All of the original Order was in danger because of Voldemort, but that doesn't mean they all went into hiding. It's clear from the great lengths Lily and James went to to protect themselves, they must have been aware of some very special circumstances. Besides, them knowing fits right in with my theory that Lily knowingly activated the ancient magic which allowed her sacrifice to save Harry. I believe it was her last ditch effort to save him, if all else failed. She knew that Voldemort was willfully ignorant of this type of protection, and so would not be expecting it. I believe she had the spell set in place, waiting to be activated before Voldemort even entered the room. Max From loonyloopyrjl at yahoo.com Sat Dec 6 22:02:40 2003 From: loonyloopyrjl at yahoo.com (loonyloopyrjl) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 22:02:40 -0000 Subject: Frankly, my dear In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86610 "Kim" wrote: Since JKR has such a fascination for names, and a vivid imagination for coming up with them in her novels, is there any significance to the fact that there are two characters named "Frank": Frank Bryce, the Riddle's gardener, and Frank Longbottom, Neville's father? Or is this just a coincidence, using a very common first name more than once? Loony Loopy responds: I would guess it's a coincidence. The bartender/landlord of the Leaky Cauldron shares a first name with Tom Riddle. Loony Loopy From kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au Sat Dec 6 22:33:29 2003 From: kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au (kenney) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 22:33:29 -0000 Subject: Page 305 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86611 Good Day to you all. I was re-reading my copy of OoP, (Australian edition) when I noticed an interesting comment on page 305 towards the bottom of the page... " 'and in our first year,' said Neville to the group at large, 'he saved that philological stone -' 'Philosopher's,' hissed Hermione My Question is, what does this say in the American version of the book? How can a wizard mispronounce sorcerer? It is in the middle of chapt. 16 : "In The Hog's Head" >From the Key Of Kenney who still likes Dobby. From gabrielle9578 at yahoo.co.uk Sat Dec 6 19:11:33 2003 From: gabrielle9578 at yahoo.co.uk (gabrielle9578) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 19:11:33 -0000 Subject: Did James and Lily know about the prophecy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86612 The Potters were in the Order, extremely loyal to Dumbledore and ever willing to risk their lives working against the Dark Lord. They would have expected their son to do the same-fighting bravely along side them and sacrificing if the need arises. However, in the Order of the Phoenix, after Dumbledore revealed the entire prophecy to young Harry, the poor boy was haunted by it and didnt even tell Ron and Hermione, his two best friends. So, imagine telling a couple that their son had to either perish or kill the Dark Lord feared by everyone during that time. Therefore, in my humble opinion, no one knew about the entire prophecy except Dumbledore and of course, Professor Trelawny. From kate_bag at hotmail.com Sat Dec 6 20:17:07 2003 From: kate_bag at hotmail.com (dj_bagshaw) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 20:17:07 -0000 Subject: The Longbottom's Secret Keeper Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86613 I just re read Book 6 again, and got to wondering something... I am assuming that the Longbottoms must have had a secret keeper, just as the Potters did. If both families fit the constraints of the prophecy, this would only make sense... Why, therefore, were the Longbottoms found and tortured by death eaters? Who was their secret keeper and why were they betrayed? If the Longbottoms did not have a secret keeper, why not? Didn't Dumbledore warn that family too? Any suggestions or references to past posts would be helpful. ~Kate From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Sat Dec 6 21:25:06 2003 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 21:25:06 -0000 Subject: Did James and Lily know about the prophecy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86614 iris_ft wrote: > Voldemort was dangerous and they had a baby who needed protection, > like every baby does: Harry was their weak point and it was > enough to go into hiding. Of course, that's only a point of view. > > Two knuts, > > Iris I admit that Harry complicated matters, but I don't see him as their "weak point". If Voldemort had been after them as cuople without any children, they still would have been safer hiding using the Fidelius charm, than simply being on the run. Yolanda From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Sat Dec 6 21:56:13 2003 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 21:56:13 -0000 Subject: Harry, Parseltongue, and the Basilisk In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031206003710.024a2390@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86615 Derek Hiemforth wrote: > As a new list member, I've been reading a lot of the material the group > refers to, such as the Fantastic Posts section, Hypothetic Alley, the > Harry Potter Lexicon, and so on. I found the following about Harry and > the Basilisk in an essay by Steve Vander Ark in the Puzzles and Mysteries > section of the HPL... > > (Now from Steve Vander Ark's essay): > "Why didn't Harry talk Parseltongue to the Basilisk? Good question. I just thought of another reason. Harry has to be face to face with a snake to speak parseltongue. Since Basilisk's petrify anyone that makes eye contact with them, Harry was doing his best to not look it in the eye. Since Harry can't speak parseltongue without being face to face/ eye to eye with a snake he couldn't speak parseltongue to the Basilisk. I realize that the snake in the bathroom, wasn't a real snake, but he did look the fake snake in the eye while speaking to it. Riddle either doesn't have this restriction or he focused his way around it. Harry was not as practiced a parselmouth as Riddle apparently was and as stated above was at a disadvantage while facing a Basilisk. I'd thought of this before, but we do not have canon supporting it. Perhaps, parselmouths are immune to the Basilisk's stare. In a way, it would make sense. Since Parselmouths are so rare, Harry wouldn't know about this and Riddle wouldn't share this little fact while fighting Harry, so we have no way of knowing. Yolanda From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Sat Dec 6 22:07:18 2003 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 22:07:18 -0000 Subject: Did James and Lily know about the prophecy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86616 > Madmaxime: > I believe it was her last ditch effort to save him, if all else > failed. She knew that Voldemort was willfully ignorant of this type > of protection, and so would not be expecting it. I believe she had the > spell set in place, waiting to be activated before Voldemort even > entered the room. > > Max I believe she cast the spell in advance as well. The charm she cast that protects Harry is pretty powerful. It is possible that she was that good at charms and did cast the spell that night, but I'd always thought it sounded like something that required a bit more preparation. Yolanda From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 7 06:58:17 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 22:58:17 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Longbottom's Secret Keeper References: Message-ID: <002701c3bc8f$88835740$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 86617 "The Loudest Noise Comes From The Electric Minerva." ~Kate > I just re read Book 6 again, and got to wondering something... > K Well some of us would like to know where you got Book 6 from since OoP is Book 5 .... Do you know something wee don't? :) Kate again > I am assuming that the Longbottoms must have had a secret keeper, > just as the Potters did. If both families fit the constraints of the > prophecy, this would only make sense... > > Why, therefore, were the Longbottoms found and tortured by death > eaters? Who was their secret keeper and why were they betrayed? If > the Longbottoms did not have a secret keeper, why not? Didn't > Dumbledore warn that family too? > K I was in the middle of writing an e-mail considering this when it occurred to me - the Longbottoms were tortured *after* the Potters died. So if they had gone into hiding with the Fidelius Charm they would presumably have come out of hiding after the Potters died, which is why the DEs were able to find them and torture them. K From htfulcher at comcast.net Sat Dec 6 23:02:28 2003 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 23:02:28 -0000 Subject: Page 305 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86618 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kenney" wrote: > Good Day to you all. > > I was re-reading my copy of OoP, (Australian edition) when I noticed > an interesting comment on page 305 towards the bottom of the page... > > " 'and in our first year,' said Neville to the group at large, 'he > saved that philological stone -' > 'Philosopher's,' hissed Hermione > > My Question is, what does this say in the American version of the > book? How can a wizard mispronounce sorcerer? > > It is in the middle of chapt. 16 : "In The Hog's Head" > > From the Key Of Kenney who still likes Dobby. The US edition reads: "And in our first year," said Neville to the group at large, "he saveed that Sorcerous Stone -- " "Sorcerer's," hissed Hermione. Cheers! M.E. From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Dec 6 22:55:18 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 22:55:18 -0000 Subject: spotted Dick [Was Questionable dessert] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86619 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kilnkat" wrote: > Geoff asked: > > > Just remind me when > > Spotted Dick turns up - is it at Hogwarts, > > or something rustled up at the Burrow? > Kilnkat: > At one of the Hogwarts feasts [GoF?] Ron [naturally] mentions it, > along with chocolate gateau. Thanks, Geoff, I've really wondered > about that one. Sounds yummy. Geoff: Yes, you're right. Treacle tart, chocolate gateau and spotted dick. It's Ron trying to tempt Hermione just after she learns about the House-Elves at Hogwarts. (GOF "The Triwizard Tournament" p.162 UK edition). Thanks for the lead. It is yummy, especially in the winter on a cold day, although I like it with lashings of single cream. Geoff From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sun Dec 7 00:58:51 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 19:58:51 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Page 305 Message-ID: <14c.27d3b2c3.2d03d54b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86620 In a message dated 12/6/2003 5:34:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au writes: My Question is, what does this say in the American version of the book? How can a wizard mispronounce sorcerer? Sherrie: "Sorcerous". Sherrie "As an actor, you've got to have very innocent eyes." - Alan Rickman [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Sat Dec 6 22:31:19 2003 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 22:31:19 -0000 Subject: Is Hogwarts So Safe? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86621 > Yolanda: > > Snape said he would remain at Hogwarts when he > > chose to ignore the DE summons. Snape strikes > > me as being both a realist and a survivor. The > > fact that he chose to remain within Hogwarts > > tells me that *he* feels protected there. > > Carol: > I don't think he was considering safety at that moment. He and > Karkaroff were faced with three options: return to Voldemort, which > they both rejected; "flee!" (Snape's contemptuous advice to the coward > Karkaroff, which Karkaroff took; and remain at Hogwarts, which I think > Snape did on principle. Granted, Hogwarts is at least as safe as > fleeing into the unknown, but it was also where Snape wanted to be as > a statement of where his loyalties lie. (It should prove safe for > awhile at least, regardless of his reasons for staying there; we know > Snape survives to do something of great importance in Book 7.) True, I did catch that Snape was making a stand. However, I do feel that safety was a factor in his decision. Snape does take risks, but he is not reckless about it. Yolanda From LinneaLand at CS.com Sat Dec 6 21:27:04 2003 From: LinneaLand at CS.com (thelinnealand) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 21:27:04 -0000 Subject: Overturning the prophecy (was Re: Choices)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86622 Sophierom wrote: >>> What if, instead, there were someway that Harry could cause LV to lose his powers, thereby defeating him without killing him?...this is against the prophesy, which clearly states: "Either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives" (OOTP, UK ed.741). But, as Iris has suggested, maybe Harry has the power to make "that blasted prophecy lie" (post #86512)... that's a sort of cheap way out of the whole thing ... any ideas about ways that Harry could take the high road but still live in a Voldie free world?...>>> Rachel wrote: >>...JKR might have been trying to give a hint in the scene after the prophecy was smashed between DD and Voldie: "You do not seek to kill me Dumbledore?..." - Voldie "We both know that there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom... Merely taking your life would not satisfy me, I admit-" - DD "There is nothing worse than death, Dumbledore!" - Voldie. "You are quite wrong... Indeed your failure to understand that there are things much worse than death has always been you greatest weakness-" - DD. Perhaps JKR is trying to open our minds to an alternative ending for Voldie and Harry other than the death of one.>> Linnea: How about a scenario wherein they are all fighting back in the Veil Room when,after carefully manuevering by Harry, LV steps too close to it and Sirius pulls a fast "Snatch and Switch" places with him? In any case, its clear DD has a "Fate worse than death" in mind for LV. Linnea who is always hoping for a happy ending From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Sat Dec 6 23:09:10 2003 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 23:09:10 -0000 Subject: Did James and Lily know about the prophecy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86623 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gabrielle9578" wrote: > So, imagine > telling a couple that their son had to either perish or kill the > Dark Lord feared by everyone during that time. Therefore, in my > humble opinion, no one knew about the entire prophecy except > Dumbledore and of course, Professor Trelawny. Madmaxime: As a parent myself, I can only say that I would definitely want to know if such a Prophecy had been made regarding my son. In fact, I would be very angry if I found out such information had been withheld from me. Grim as the news may be, I think any parent would want to know. Max From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Dec 6 23:07:01 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 23:07:01 -0000 Subject: Page 305 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86624 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kenney" wrote: > Good Day to you all. > > I was re-reading my copy of OoP, (Australian edition) when I noticed > an interesting comment on page 305 towards the bottom of the page... > > " 'and in our first year,' said Neville to the group at large, 'he > saved that philological stone -' > 'Philosopher's,' hissed Hermione > > My Question is, what does this say in the American version of the > book? How can a wizard mispronounce sorcerer? > > It is in the middle of chapt. 16 : "In The Hog's Head" > > From the Key Of Kenney who still likes Dobby. Geoff: I knew this had cropped up before. I put "philological" into the Search Archive and had to go back through a couple of so "Next" and hit the jackpot with message 76238, replies 76251 and 76295. In the US editions, the relevant words are "Sorcerous" and "Sorcerer's" Cheers Geoff From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Dec 7 06:47:59 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 06:47:59 -0000 Subject: Page 519 - Missing Paragraph In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86625 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marephraim" wrote: > An article on the EDP24 website > http://www.edp24.co.uk/Content/Community/Thetford/Story.asp?Brand=EDPONLINE&Category=COMMUNITY&ItemId=NOED05+Dec+2003+11:28:05:760 Alternate URL: http://tinyurl.com/y30c > notes that a dyslexic fan of Harry Potter was reading OoP while > Listening along to the UK audo book and noted three phrases have > been changed, a sentence was missing and "one whole paragraph on > page 519 had been completely cut from the tape." The article > confirms that these changes and omissions were made at JKR's > request. > > My question: Does anyone know which paragraph was omitted? What > about the other altered or deleted material? It strikes me that this > could possibly alter our assessments of clues, etc., for the final > two books. > > Thanks! > > MarEphraim My first impression was that the author of the article just assumed that the changes were authorized by JKR, but the article indicates that both JKR's agent and the publishing company, Bloomsbury, acknowledge these changes at JKR's request. I read pg 519 in my UK hard cover edition (anybody have the UK paperback edition?), and it takes place the next morning after Harry has the dream of Voldemort talking to Rookwood about the correct way to get the Prophecy for the Dept of Mysteries. The next morning, they are standing around in the courtyard discussing Harry's dream; here is a summary of that page (too long to quote, but this should help you find the appropriate page in other editions)- Previous page - "Sturgis!" gasped Hermione, looking thunderstruck. (Note: she has made the connection between Sturgis arrest and his attempt to enter a restricted area of the Ministry) Top of the page- "Sorry?" said Ron, looking bewildered. Paragraph- Hermione discusses her belief that Sturgis Podmore was bewitched by Lucius Malfoy, and forced to try and steal the prophecy. next- Hermione gazes a Harry next- Harry says that Rookwood must have told Voldemort how to get the weapon. Paragraph- Harry says he didn't hear the whole conversation but knows that Roodwood used to work in the Dept of Mysteries. Paragraph- Hermione, deep in thought, points out that Harry shouldn't have seen anything at all. Next- Harry is take aback. Paragraph- Hermione reminds Harry he is supposed to be learning to close his mind. Harry- "I know I am." ... "But..." Paragraph- Hermione tells Harry to forget what he saw. Paragraph Narrative- Harry is angry at Hermione and doesn't talk to her for the rest of the day, which proves to be another bad one. People are constantly discussing the escaped Death Eaters, and Gryffindors abysmal performance at Quidditch against Hufflepuff, compounded by constantly singing "Weasley is our King". By the end of the day, Filch has banned the song. Last paragraph narrative- The week did not improve. Harry received two more 'D's in potion, he was worried that Hagrid might get sacked, and couldn't stop dwelling on his dream. The paragraph continues on to the next page. Harry doesn't bring up the dream because he doesn't want another telling off from Hermione. He wishes he could talk to Sirius about it, and tries to push the matter to the back of his mind. -- end summary -- I certainly don't see anything there that could be an error or in need of any kind of correction. I doesn't appear to give away an secrets or clues we shouldn't have at this point in time. And I can certainly see other areas of the book the could have used a rewrite more that this particular section. The publisher confirms that the changes to the audio tapes will eventually make it into the latest Bloombury printed editions of the books. No indication whether the changes will make it into other English language editions of the book. Being the paranoid overly obssessed fans that we are, we must speculate whether JKR gave away a clue that she hadn't intended to give away, and must now read all kinds of deep hidden meaning into ever paragraph of that page. Let the obssessing begin. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Dec 7 07:19:18 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 07:19:18 -0000 Subject: spotted Dick [Was Questionable dessert] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86626 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kilnkat" wrote: > Geoff asked: > > > Just remind me when > > Spotted Dick turns up - is it at Hogwarts, > > or something rustled up at the Burrow? > > At one of the Hogwarts feasts [GoF?] Ron [naturally] mentions it, > along with chocolate gateau. Thanks, Geoff, I've really wondered > about that one. Sounds yummy. > > kilnkat bboy_mn: We dabbled in a long discussion of assorted 'puddings' in British culture which included Spotted Dick. Thought you might find it interesting. You will find many discussions of British foods in the off-topic group. This is a link specifically to Suet, a key ingredient in Spotted Dick. I find it completely astounding that anyone in their right mind would try to make a sweet desert out of Suet. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/14537 Move up and down in this thread for other people's opinions. As I recall this thread went on for days under various different Subject headings. Just a thought. Bboy_mn From christopher at changingthetimes.co.uk Sun Dec 7 11:19:32 2003 From: christopher at changingthetimes.co.uk (thesuddenstrike) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 11:19:32 -0000 Subject: Did voldemort mean to allow the DEs to be captured? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86627 Something that struck me as odd about OOP was the suspicouly easy defeat of a group of adult, experienced, evil death eaters by a group of school children, who, with the possible exception of harry, don't have anything like as much power. So I started to wonder, could Voldemort have planned it on purpose? He gets rid of the ambitous and cunning L. Malfoy and the incredibuly stupid Crabbe and Goyle Senior. Further, it places the Malfoy fortune into the hands of a voldemort worshipper (draco), who lacks the brains to be a threat and has the hatred of Harry to support Voldemort without asking questions. On a different note, a few death eaters in the new wizard prison or Hogwarts could be very useful when voldemort attacks. Thoughts? Chris From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sun Dec 7 11:39:40 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 11:39:40 -0000 Subject: The Diary (just where did V get it & what is really going on ?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86628 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" < > carolynwhite2 at a...> wrote: > > One question about the diary that does not seem to have been > > discussed, is just how did Tom get hold of it in the first place ? Firstly, what was Tom doing shopping in Vauxhall Rd ? Vauxhall Rd is a long, boring main road ... --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "linocow2000" wrote: > <> > > And those large, dull office buildings (well, a relatively OK building actually) > happen to include the HQ of publishing giant Random House, who > presumably sent JK a rejection slip all those years ago... JK repeatedly takes > swipes at the media, could this be nothing more complicated than a similar > swipe? Could make sense, considering the item in question is a form of book. > Linocow Carolyn: Its a nice idea Linocow, and I certainly wouldn't put it past her to have Voldie offering some jinxed schoolday memoirs to Random House, but on this occasion, I really think there is more to it. Apart from anything else, the item is not a book but just a cheap little pre- printed diary which he wouldn't have picked up from a publisher's office. Also, when did Random House move to Vauxhall Rd ? My recollection is that it was within the last 10-15 years. After I had written my last post, I realised a more important objection was that Tom would not have been visiting Vauxhall Rd in its present form. I did some more thinking and researching last night (1), and present a further bit of the developing theory: 1. The dating of the series all hangs from one particular canon fact - Sir Nick's deathday party, which celebrates the 500th anniversary of his death on 31 Oct 1492. This sets CoS in 1992/1993. 2. Elsewhere in CoS we find out about Tom Riddle's 16 year old self opening the Chamber of Secrets and framing Hagrid for killing Myrtle. This is definitely stated to be on June 13, 50 years prior to the events in CoS, making it the summer of 1943. 3. Well, this makes it even more strange that Tom Riddle was in Vauxhall Rd buying a diary. Assuming he could have bought it anytime between autumn 1942 and June 1943, one wonders whether he was aware whilst he was shopping that there was, erm, a war on ? Quite a big one that even wizards might notice. 4. WW2 started in 1939, but as far as London was concerned, there was a considerable period of what was known as 'the phoney war' before bombs started dropping on the city. The serious air raids did not begin until 7th September 1940, and were then very intense for a period of about 7-8 months, destroying large areas of London in what is known as the Blitz. They then lessened somewhat in intensity (although they were still continuous) until June 1944, when the flying bombs and V2s started to be used up until the end of the war in Europe in May 1945. Vauxhall Rd is in an area of London which was a repeated target for the bombers, and would have been badly damaged by 1942/1943 (which is why the road is so bland today; most of the buildings are post-war office blocks). It would scarcely have been a great area for a casual shopping visit, even for trainee evil overlords. He was definitely there for some other reason. 5. I also discovered that there was a thriving pre-war printing industry in London, with over a 100 000 printers recorded in 1937. However, the war obviously had a huge effect on these businesses, and a large number moved out permanently to other areas. Together with the bombing raids, and paper and ink shortages, this casts further doubt on whether any newsagent would (a)still be standing, and (b) commissioning and printing its own diaries specifically in Vauxhall Rd at this point in time. No, I think she wanted to get Voldie's visit to the road mentioned for some plot reason, and has given us a clue in the process. Carolyn And sorry if this gets posted twice, Yahoo ate my first attempt ! (1)The book I used was 'A History of London' by Stephen Inwood, Macmillan 1998. From pixieberry at harborside.com Sun Dec 7 05:14:06 2003 From: pixieberry at harborside.com (Krystol Berry) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 21:14:06 -0800 Subject: Did James and Lily know about the prophecy? Message-ID: <002001c3bc80$f0a9c700$623a2d0c@pixie> No: HPFGUIDX 86629 Gabrielle wrote: So, imagine telling a couple that their son had to either perish or kill the Dark Lord feared by everyone during that time. Therefore, in my humble opinion, no one knew about the entire prophecy except Dumbledore and of course, Professor Trelawny. now me (Pixieberry): This is the theory I tend to lean toward. The prophecy seemed to be a big secret to everyone but DD and LV (and those pesky Death Eaters...). Sirius didn't appear to know anything about it, and it seem he would have, had the Potters known. That would have been the main reason behind the Fidelus charm. Add to this the fact that DD is known for giving information on a need-to-know basis, and you end up with a multitude of clueless people. (Fuel for the ESE!DD camp?) :) Pixieberry From strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca Sun Dec 7 09:54:39 2003 From: strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca (strawberryshaunie) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 09:54:39 -0000 Subject: drooble's once again! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86630 I've been looking for the posts on Drooble's Best blowing gum and haven't been able to find any mention of something that's been bothering me... I recently read in one of the first three HP books (I cant remember which, but I think it was PoA) that Drooble's gum "filled a room with blue bubbles that refused to pop for days" (or something similar). Now, if the Longbottoms (or, specifically, Alice) have been chewing Drooble's in the hospital , wouldn't there be bubbles all over the place? Wouldn't the staff have tried to prevent her from chewing it to avoid having to clean them up? -shaunie From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sun Dec 7 15:12:27 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 15:12:27 -0000 Subject: Did voldemort mean to allow the DEs to be captured? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86631 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "thesuddenstrike" wrote: > Something that struck me as odd about OOP was the suspicouly easy > defeat of a group of adult, experienced, evil death eaters by a group > of school children, who, with the possible exception of harry, don't > have anything like as much power. So I started to wonder, could > Voldemort have planned it on purpose? Jen R: The Incompetent!DE's bothers me as well, although I can't think of what purpose it serves for them to be captured. LV is trying to stay undercover and while his "gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great" it requires stealth to succeed. A host of cpatured DE's on the front page of The Daily Prophet and mobilization of the WW to defend against his subversice tactics(i.e, putting people under the Imperio to do his bidding) does little to further his goal. I guess we can believe these are very exceptional children, but each appears to be unusually gifted only in certain areas and they still required the intervention of the Order to escape. Chris: > He gets rid of the ambitous and cunning L. Malfoy and the incredibuly > stupid Crabbe and Goyle Senior. Jen R: Getting rid of Lucius would be much to LV's advantage IMO, since he is really Spy!Lucius or at the very least Ambivalent! Lucius ;). Goyle doesn't appear at the DOM, and surely LV would just AK them if they became too much of a hindrance, rather than invent such an elaborate scheme (although he does like extremely complicated plans). Chris: > On a different note, a few death eaters in the new wizard prison or > Hogwarts could be very useful when voldemort attacks. Jen R: At Hogwarts, definitely, although we don't know of any DE's who are there at the moment unless you're thinking of the Inquisitorial Squad as future DE's. Azkaban? I wonder who or what is in control of Azkaban now? Is it just protected with spells/enchantments? As Draco tells Harry the DE's won't be in there long without the Dementors, so either the protection is limited or he's just posturing for Harry. My guess is Draco is right and Azkaban has a very limited purpose without the Dementors--acting as a temporary holding cell at best. As to how a large group of DE's trained in the Unforgivables managed to get into the Ministry of Magic at night, override security precautions, then be unable to capture the Prophecy from a handful of children....that's a mystery. *Unless* you believe as I do that Lucius Malfoy was working at cross-purposes with the group, leading an ineffective offensive that was a cover to keep Harry alive at all costs while pretending to nab the Prophecy--then it all makes sense! Jen Reese, realizing with the help of this group that she is a conspiracy theorist at heart. Hehehe. From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Dec 7 16:02:25 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 7 Dec 2003 16:02:25 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1070812945.79.76867.m16@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86632 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, December 7, 2003 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CST (GMT-06:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. *Chat times are not changing for Daylight Saving/Summer Time.* Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Dec 7 17:17:14 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 17:17:14 -0000 Subject: drooble's once again! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86633 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "strawberryshaunie" wrote: > I've been looking for the posts on Drooble's Best blowing gum and > haven't been able to find any mention of something that's been > bothering me... > > I recently read in one of the first three HP books (I cant remember > which, but I think it was PoA) that Drooble's gum "filled a room with > blue bubbles that refused to pop for days" (or something similar). > > Now, if the Longbottoms (or, specifically, Alice) have been chewing > Drooble's in the hospital , wouldn't there be bubbles all over the > place? Wouldn't the staff have tried to prevent her from chewing it > to avoid having to clean them up? > > -shaunie bboy_mn: There would only be bubbles IF they blew bubbles. Perhaps they just chewed it for the flavor and let it go at that. Or it could be Neville that was chewing the gum. Also, I think the bubbles don't pop or go away *on their own* for day, but that doesn't mean a good wizard couldn't vanish them. As a side note; I don't recall this issue ever coming up before; nice catch. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Dec 7 18:04:21 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 18:04:21 -0000 Subject: The Diary (just where did V get it & what is really going on ?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86634 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > One question about the diary that does not seem to have been > discussed, is just how did Tom get hold of it in the first place ? > Yes, Tom, not Lucius. I am intrigued that JKR chooses to emphasise > its origins so specifically: > > 'Harry turned to the back cover of the book and saw the printed name > of a newsagents in Vauxhall Road, London. > 'He must have been Muggle-born,' said Harry thoughtfully, 'to have > bought a diary from Vauxhall Road...' > > ...edited... > > Carolyn bboy_mn: Excellent analysis. Please forgive me for not addressing it item by item; I'm just going to make a few general comments. First point, the USA edition says that the book is from a "variety story" on Vauxhall Road. My guess is, the impicaition is that the book came from a newstand or shop that specializes in periodicals and cheap paperback books as well as a few miscellaneous novelty and convinience items. In any event, both UK and US books seem to indicate that the name on the back and reference to Vauxhall Rd represent the store and not the publisher. Now let's look at the actual book. If it was a 'year' diary where each day of the week is specifically associated with a calendar date, then things become a little more complicated. But, if it was more like a journal, just a book of blank or lined pages, things are much simpler. A journal could be published at any time; so, if it was a journal, then the diary could have been 10 years old before it was actually purchased. This type of journal is cheap and readily available. I speculate that I could go to my local grocery story and find this type of journal in the office supply section. Many store that sell this type of cheap journal or date calendar, do imprint their store name on the back as a form of advertising. The journal type diary helps because it allows us to separate the book from shops that might be casualties of war. In fact, I will speculate that the war might have even helped make the journal MORE available to Tom Riddle. I speculate that the orphanage that Riddle grew up in wasn't totally heartless or without compassion. So, when Christmas rolled around, each kid would be give some type of token present just so they could feel like they were part of Christmas too. Now we can assume that Riddle received the journal as a Christmas present. I can further speculate that because the Vauxhall Rd area was damaged by the war, much of the merchandise from damage stores would have been salvaged and put on the surplus market. An attempt by the owners to recover as much as they could from the destruction. That means that a relatively nice journal would be available for an extremely low price to the orphanage. It may have even been an complimentary advertising gift to one of the orphanage staff, who in turn donated it to be re-gifted to one of the orphans. All pure speculation, but it holds up as a likely way in which Tom could have come across the diary. Just a thought. bboy_mn From houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Sun Dec 7 18:28:39 2003 From: houseofbohacek at earthlink.net (Gail Bohacek) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 13:28:39 -0500 Subject: Re (FILK): Hagrid's Blues and a New Album! Message-ID: <410-220031207182839656@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 86635 I hope all these htm links work...had to type them all by hand this morning. Hagrid's Blues (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Yer Blues_ by the Beatles) A Midi can be found here: http://www.geocites.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle15.html Dedicated to A Goldfeesh Hagrid (jammin' on the electric guitar): ...two..three.. I feel sullen, wanna cry Tears are fallin' from my eyes You ask me for the reason Wooo, I guess I should tell you why I got the blues: You will find In today's news, the head line If you ain't read the story Wooo, The name on the front page is mine My mother was a giant My father was a wizard So that makes me a half-human And they say I'm a hazard You all know how I tried To be a good instructor Wooo, but I'm unqualified The owl keeping bringing posts In which I am attacked Tell me I'm a monster And they say I should be sacked Depressed - gonna hide How'd Skeeter know my secret? Wooo, bet somehow that woman spied Dumbledore told me "Don't listen to them People they still like you Come on back to work again." Whatta guy, yeah whatta guy I'm feelin' better already Wooo - everything will be alrigh' -Gail B. *************************************************************************** Yes! Yes! Yes! I am very pleased to announce the release of yet another filked Beatles' album, just in time for the holiday season. A double album, no less! And my favorite Beatles' album to boot! This title for this particular album has been named in loving memory of Sirius Black. His ever adoring fans will find a number filks dedicated to his life and times (Back In The Wizarding World, The Continuing Story Of Sirius Black, Sirius Black and Revelation: Sirius). Many, MANY thanks to all the filkers who made this album possible. And now, without further ado, I ask you to put on your headphones, sit back and enjoy listening to The Black Album *Disk 1, Side 1* (Back In The U.S.S.R) Back In The Wizarding World - Ellen Anglin http://home.att.net/~coriolan/azkaban.htm#Back_in_the_Wizarding_World (Dear Prudence) Not Prudent -Gail B. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/secrets.htm#Not_Prudent (Glass Onion) Waiting For Book Five To Come -Gail B. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/place/waiting2.htm#Waiting_For_Book_Five_To_Come (Ob-La-Di Ob-La-Da) A-Va-Da Ke-Da-Vra -Ellen Anglin http://home.att.net/~coriolan/voldemort/voldemort.htm#A-Va-Da,_Ke-Da-Vra *and* I'm Pregnant -Nuri http://home.att.net/~coriolan/students/weasleys.htm#I'm_Pregnant (Wild Honey Pie) Wild About Honeydukes -Gail B. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/lazy.htm#Wild_About_Honeydukes (The Continuing Story of Bungalow Bill) The Continuing Story of Sirius Black -Ellen Anglin http://home.att.net/~coriolan/azkaban.htm#The_Continuing_Story_of_Sirius_Black (While My Guitar Gently Weeps) Fluffy The Dog Goes To Sleep -Gail B. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/stone.htm#Fluffy_The_Dog_Goes_To_Sleep (Happiness Is A Warm Gun) Happiness Is A New Wand -Gail B. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/places/devices.htm#Happiness_Is_A_New_Wand *Disk 1, Side 2* (Martha, My Dear) Arthur, Weasley -Gail B. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/86577 (I'm So Tired) I'm So Mad -Gail B. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/phoenix.htm#I'm_So_Mad (Blackbird) Hedwig -Ellen Anglin http://home.att.net/~coriolan/places/beasts.htm#Hedwig (Piggies) Dudley Dursley -Gail B. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/students/dursleys.htm#Dudley_Dursley (Rocky Raccoon) Sirius Black -Gail B. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/students/marauders.htm#Sirius_Black (Don't Pass Me By) Just Pass Me By -CMC http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/85804 (Why Don't We Do It In The Road?) Has Anyone Seen Trevor Toad? -Gail B. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/lazy.htm#Has_Any_One_Seen_Trevor_Toad? (I Will) Your Will -CMC http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/86521 (Julia) Rubeus -Pippin http://home.att.net/~coriolan/faculty/hagrid.htm#Rubeus *Disc 2, Side 1* (Birthday) Prefect -Gail B. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/phoenix.htm#Prefect (Yer Blues) Hagrid's Blues -Gail B. (above) *and* Kretcher's Blues -Constance Vigilance http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/86563 (Mother Nature's Son) James and Lily's Son -Pixieberry http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/86542 (Everybody's Got Something To Hide Except For Me And My Monkey) We've Got All The Jokes That You'd Want To Buy At Weasley Wizard Wheezes -Gail B. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/students/weasleys.htm#We've_Got_All_The_Jokes_That_You'd_Want_To_Buy_At_Weasley_Wizard_Wheezes (Sexy Sadie) Master Barty -Gail B. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/voldemort/crouch.htm#Master_Barty (Helter Skelter) Rita Skeeter -Gail B. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/gofire.htm#Rita_Skeeter (Long, Long, Long) Long, Long, Long -Gail B. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/places/waiting2.htm#Long,_Long,_Long *Disc 2, Side 2* (Revolution) Muggle Protection -Gail B. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/students/weasleys.htm#Muggle_Protection (Honey Pie) Severus -Gail B. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/faculty/snape.htm#Severus (Savoy Truffle) Honeydukes -Gail B. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/azkaban.htm#Honeydukes (Cry Baby Cry) I Heard You Cry -Gail B. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/phoenix.htm#I_Heard_You_Cry (Revolution 9) Revelation: Sirius -Maria http://home.att.net/~coriolan/lazy.htm#Revelation:_Sirius (Good Night) Good Night -Pixieberry http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/86576 -Gail B. houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Why Wait? Move to EarthLink. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From siriusxisxmyxlover at yahoo.com Sun Dec 7 03:50:58 2003 From: siriusxisxmyxlover at yahoo.com (siriusxisxmyxlover) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 03:50:58 -0000 Subject: Red robes green eyes, green robes red eye Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86636 Okay, we know in the HP world the good guy wear red and the bad guys wear green. But... hold on... doesn't Harry have green eyes... and wait a minute... doesn't Voldie have red eyes? Ummm hmm! Knowing J.K. Rowling this isn't coincidence because honestly, nothing in these books are coincidences (for all of you who haven't red WWP's Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter you should because it blatantly gives extensive canon for this for books 1-4 and canon can be found for it in book 5 as well, it is actually one of their rules for sleuthers, nothing is coincidence in the HP universe). Well ANYWAY, knowing J.K. Rowling this means something or it could be a red herring but if it does I take that it is a little detail that clues us in that Harry does have Voldie inside of him, essentially he is Voldie only the opposite of Voldie (is anyone else getting me) he has Voldie's cunning, determination, disregard for the rules, they both had unhappy childhoods blah blah blah... you've all heard this canon a million times. Only, so far Harry has chosen to be good and Voldie chose power over morality( ah ha the power of choice has come to us again) so I think the eyes are telling us that Voldie and Harry are the same, but it is their choices that make them very different, but they do have it inside both of them to go the other way. The sorting hat wanted to place Harry in Slytherin because he would have done well in it, Harry could have been ANOTHER Voldie if he wanted to, but he didn't and that is why he is in Gryffindor. And you know what? Voldie could have been just like Harry if he wanted to! But he didn't! And that is why he is Voldemort and not Tom. In this series nothing is just coincidence, but nothing is beyond our control and there is no such thing as fate! It is all about the choices we make, that ultimately Harry will make, and Voldemort has already made. So just a little interesting flip-flop tidbit I thought someone might enjoy. OOO and I just wanted to say something, in essence, since all purebloods are inter-related no matter how distant, couldn't Voldie, Sirius, and Harry all be extreme distant relations of Salazar Slytherin AND Godric Gryffindor since pure bloods have had to inter marry so much and they are all related somehow. Voldie had a pureblood mother, Harry a pureblood father, and Sirius was completly pureblood, so IS Voldemort really the last remaining descendent (ancestor?) of Slytherin. Wait a minute! Is it possible that Dumbledore is an ancestor of Slytherin. If he's pureblood he's got to be. And the Weasly's too. I feel though that these relationships are way too distant to be actual heirs. Oh and one more thing that I thought was extremly interesting, at the Ministry of Magic in the big climatic (anticlimatic?) duel in OOTP Dumbledore calls Voldie Tom and Voldie does not object. Everyone else calls Voldie the Dark Lord, he who must not be named, you know who, or Voldemort; in fact almost no one knows that Voldie was once Tom and Tom said in book two that he did not want to be called by his poor common muggle father's name but he lets Dumbledore call him that. We know that Voldie fears, even respects Dumbledore but I still thought that was interesting. I also loved how he swooped in there all confident in that scene. Extremely cool. Oh and one more thing that was REALLY bugging me. Ollivander knows that Voldie has Harry's brother wand, however, Voldie bought it before he was Voldie, when he was just Tom, Ollivander has got to know about Voldie's past then, but how? This was buggin me so much! Is Ollivander close with DBD? Is Ollivander close with VDM? Can we trust Ollivander? Has anyone pondered this before? PLEASE WRITE BACK YOU GUYS THIS IS MY FIRST POST! "siriusxisxmyxlover" From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sun Dec 7 20:28:28 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 20:28:28 -0000 Subject: The Diary (just where did V get it & what is really going on ?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86637 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" > wrote: > > One question about the diary that does not seem to have been > > discussed, is just how did Tom get hold of it in the first place ? Yes, Tom, not Lucius. I am intrigued that JKR chooses to emphasise its origins so specifically: > > > > 'Harry turned to the back cover of the book and saw the printed name of a newsagents in Vauxhall Road, London. > > 'He must have been Muggle-born,' said Harry thoughtfully, 'to have bought a diary from Vauxhall Road...' > > > > ...edited... > > > > Carolyn > > bboy_mn: > > Excellent analysis. Carolyn: Thanks ! > > bboy_mn: > First point, the USA edition says that the book is from a "variety > story" on Vauxhall Road. Carolyn: That's an interesting change of emphasis. Would that kind of store in the US sell own-brand items that it had commissioned and had printed up with its own name ? In the UK, only a few chains of newsagents are big enough to do that nowadays. In 1943 that kind of bespoke printing may have been more common on both sides of the Atlantic. However, the reference to Vauxhall Rd clearly remains in the US edition, which is useful to know ! Why was it necessary to mention the road name, twice, so we didn't miss it ?? As we all know, she tends not to do that idly.. > > bboy_mn: > Now let's look at the actual book. If it was a 'year' diary where each day of the week is specifically associated with a calendar date, then things become a little more complicated. But, if it was more like a journal, just a book of blank or lined pages, things are much simpler. > Carolyn: We need to be careful of movie-contamination here. In the film, we were shown fluttering pages with the dates handwritten on the pages. That's not what the text says. First Hermione says (p.174 UK edition): 'She rubbed hard on 'January the first'. Nothing happened. Then on p.180: 'The pages of the diary began to blow as though caught in a high wind, stopping halfway through the month of June. Mouth hanging open, Harry saw that the little square for June the thirteenth seemed to have turned into a miniscule television screen...' Although this does not say the days of the week are printed (that is, 'Monday', 'Tuesday' etc), it does quite clearly state the calendar date is printed on the pages. CoS also says that it has a faded year printed on its cover, showing that it is 50 years old. So, no, I don't think it is the type of blank journal you refer to. > > > bboy_mn: The journal type diary helps because it allows us to separate the book > from shops that might be casualties of war. (snip)> > Now we can assume that Riddle received the journal as a Christmas > present. (snip) It may have even been an complimentary advertising gift to one of the orphanage staff, who in turn donated it to be re-gifted to one of the orphans. > Carolyn: Well, as shown above, I think it was indeed just a cheap ordinary little diary, coming from some type of shop selling muggle stationery on the Vauxhall Rd. And, it is, of course, plausible that such a diary could have found its way to the orphanage and been given to Tom as a present as you suggest. However, having just read the long account of the chaos and privations in London and the UK during the war, it doesn't feel right as an explanation. In fact, what my history said was that the authorities had so little grip on the children in their charge, whether orphans or evacuees, that, never mind organising Christmas presents for them, children ran wild on the city streets in gangs. It took them years to sort out the muddle of who belonged where after the war, and many children lost out on a whole generation of schooling because they did not get taught to read and write at the correct time. The shortages were also very acute - I don't think even cheap little diaries would have been overprinted and have to be disposed of in the way you might in peacetime; advertising gimmicks would have been considered very wasteful, and children in an orphanage would have counted themselves lucky to have got a good meal at Christmas, nothing more. No, I think Tom's dark arts studies suggested the experiment of enchanting a diary with his memories, and he either bought it himself specifically for the task, or someone bought it for him to use. As I said in my earlier post (see upthread), I believe some important muggles are involved in his back-story, and may have helped him with this. Whatever the truth of all this, it is really very curious that the WW seemed not to have noticed WW2 in any way ! Even though the bombs couldn't hurt them, you would have thought they might notice hundreds of thousands of muggle casualties wouldn't you ? After all, they seemed to be able to remember the muggles Voldie killed in his subsequent reign of terror. Carolyn From syndicateblue at yahoo.com Sun Dec 7 04:23:52 2003 From: syndicateblue at yahoo.com (syndicateblue) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 04:23:52 -0000 Subject: Harry, Parseltongue, and the Basilisk In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031206003710.024a2390@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86638 Derek Hiemforth wrote: > (Now from Steve Vander Ark's essay): > "Why didn't Harry talk Parseltongue to the Basilisk? Good question. There are a couple of times in the books where Harry seems to ignore the obvious solution." > [snip] > "Here's actually a perfectly good solution to this mystery: he's a kid, facing unimaginable danger or major stress, and he just doesn't think it all through." > > (Now back to Derek): > I offer another idea for why Harry > didn't speak Parseltongue to it... > > Throughout CoS, many -- even including Harry himself in some ways - > - suspect him of being the Heir of Slytherin because he's a Parselmouth. > He knows Salazar Slytherin was a Parselmouth too, and still wonders > whether the sorting hat made a mistake putting him in Gryffindor. > Now, in the chamber, he learns that Tom Riddle is really Lord > Voldemort, and that *he* is a Parselmouth as well. > > With all this as the background, I suggest that it's possible Harry > didn't just fail to think of trying to speak Parseltongue to the > Basilisk, nor fail to try it because he didn't think he could > command it. > > Instead, perhaps he failed to try because he was afraid he *could* > command it... > > This would have been subconscious, of course. But the last thing > Harry would have wanted right then would be further reinforcement of > the idea that he was similar the murderer of his parents and the > founder of the hated Slytherins. If Harry *had* been able to command > the Basilisk, it would have carried a great many unpleasant ramifications > for him... Syndicateblue: There are some interesting points in this post but I believe I have a simpler, better solution to this "problem" that no one has raised as of yet. ;) We all know that being a Parseltongue enables one to communicate with serpents. Therefore, most people assume that Harry, being a Parseltongue, would simply be able to tell the Basilisk to leave him alone and it would relent. However, here's the part that no one seems to have considered: just because Harry can _talk_ to the Basilisk does not mean that the Basilisk would obey him. Here's my take on the situation: Riddle is pretty much unofficially established as the Basilisk's master, if not owner. Firstly, he is the heir of slytherin, and secondly, he has familiarity with the Basilisk and has known and commanded it in the past. I would assume that the Basilisk also has some familiarity with Riddle, like a dog knows its master. We see in the Sorceror's Stone, when the Boa talks to Harry, that snakes do have some sort of intelligence. I would assume here, as Harry probably would, that had Harry tried to communicate with the Basilsk, it would have either A) Understood, but completely ignored him. B) Hear both his command and Riddle's commands simultaneously, but comprehend that Riddle is its true master and therefore go after Harry. Even if my theory is not correct, it does seem to be a logical train of thought, and at least _Harry_ may have believed the same thing. Syndicateblue From cherishedvette at yahoo.com Sun Dec 7 04:52:05 2003 From: cherishedvette at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 04:52:05 -0000 Subject: Some discrepancies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86639 Sylvia wrote: > > The most likely explanation for Mrs. Black's proprietorial > > references to her ancient house is that it is, indeed, her > > ancient house. Carol: > Any canon to support that, or just Mrs. Black's fanaticism > and use of "my" instead of "our" or "my husband's"? My theory of > the moment is still that Mrs. Black was insanely fixated with her > husband's family, which she regarded as hers, but I'm willing to > reconsider if the evidence is strong enough. We don't have any > evidence of cousins marrying cousins with the same last name, only > Black/Malfoy, Black/Lestrange, Black/Tonks (definitely not within > the little circle), and Potter/Evans. Karen: I have just been rereading OOP and this struck me. " I haven't looked at this for years. There's Phineas Nigellus... my great-great-grandfather, see? Least popular headmaster Hogwarts ever had...and Araminta Meliflua...cousin of my mother's...tried to force through a Ministry Bill to make Muggle-hunting legal..." Pg 113 of the US version. This says to me that the House of Black comes from Sirius's mom or she did indeed marry into her own family for her cousin to be on the family tree. From inky_quill at hotmail.com Sun Dec 7 07:00:32 2003 From: inky_quill at hotmail.com (Julie) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 07:00:32 -0000 Subject: Page 305 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86640 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kenney" wrote: [snipped] on page 305 towards the bottom of the page... > > " 'and in our first year,' said Neville to the group at large, 'he > saved that philological stone -' > 'Philosopher's,' hissed Hermione > > My Question is, what does this say in the American version of the > book? How can a wizard mispronounce sorcerer? > > It is in the middle of chapt. 16 : "In The Hog's Head" > > From the Key Of Kenney who still likes Dobby. American edition, page 342 reads: ...Harry was feeling slightly hot around the collar now; he was determinedly looking anywhere but at Cho. "And in our first year," said Neville to the group at large, "he saved that Sorcerous Stone---" "Sorcerer's," hissed Hermione. "Yes, that, from You=Know-Who," finished Neville. Hannah Abbott's eyes were as round as Galleons. Hope that helps! Julie From harryingbg at yahoo.com Sun Dec 7 07:56:02 2003 From: harryingbg at yahoo.com (harryingbg) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 07:56:02 -0000 Subject: Must Harry die in bk 7? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86641 I found an interesting interview - JKR in 1999 at Barnes and Noble. It would seem that JKR , at that time, was unwilling to say that she ABSOLUTELY would kill off Harry- there was a slim, very remote chance that she would even consider another Harry book after the seven planned. Another thing that made me glad, I like Lupin too, is this:JKR says that in bk 3 "... Professor Lupin appears, and he is one of my favorite characters in all seven books." With regard to the death of Harry in bk 7, JKR answered a question about the possibility of a follow-up after book 7: ...So, there is a remote possibility that there will another Harry book, but at the present time I am planning only seven." And, Has Aragog already reappeared since PoA? Crookshanks and the magical car will also have more to do, according to this interview. You can find the original at the Goat Pen Archives, at this link. http://www.angelfire.com/magic/aberforthsgoat/text.htm CMB. From dejjfan368 at aol.com Sun Dec 7 14:45:48 2003 From: dejjfan368 at aol.com (ebennet68) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 14:45:48 -0000 Subject: Room of Requirement/Mirror of Erised/Chamber Pots Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86642 ]Linnea (Lin nay uh): ]It was I who postulated that the Mirror of Erised may have been hidden in the Room of Requirement, possibly also before DD deduced the rooms unique abilities, back in post #86320. ]Seriously, it is just a guess that seems to fit the facts but if someone can disprove it with canon I will be happy to concede the point. I want to apologize for posting on this a little late. I just had to catch up on the digests that had piled up this week. I don't believe that the Mirror of Erised was hidden in the Room of Requirement. After Harry had seen his parents/family in the mirror, he went and got Ron to have a look at it. In taking Ron back to the mirror, he would no longer be in need of a place to hide, thus not "requiring" the room any longer. Remember, DD said that he went back to investigate the chamber pot room and was unable to find it. He was unable to find it because he didn't have a need for a chamber pot at the time. Hope this makes sense. E Bennet From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Sun Dec 7 17:47:08 2003 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 17:47:08 -0000 Subject: Did James and Lily know about the prophecy? In-Reply-To: <002001c3bc80$f0a9c700$623a2d0c@pixie> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86643 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Krystol Berry" wrote: >snip> > Add to this the fact that DD is known for giving information on a > need-to-know basis, and you end up with a multitude of clueless > people. (Fuel for the ESE!DD camp?) Madmaxime: See I come at it from the exact opposite point of view. Lord Voldemort wants to kill James and Lily's son. They are his parents, the ones responsible for his safety. If that's not considered a 'need to know' basis, I don't know what is. I've never read any compelling evidence which would lead me to believe Dumbledore did not tell them. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. :) Max From gawain at ofir.dk Sun Dec 7 20:28:57 2003 From: gawain at ofir.dk (romerskesims) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 20:28:57 -0000 Subject: Wolfsbane and vampires Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86644 I read a HP quiz book with questions about the 1-3 book (It's a Danish book, and I don't think it's available in English), and there was a question saying "What creature does wolfsbane protect against? Yetis, vampires or trolls?" and the answer was "vampires"...but where is that mentioned in the books? And if it's true, then the vampire!Snape-theory is useless, since he as a vampire wouldn't be able to make the wolfsbane potion, right? "romerskesims" From egraham at unity.ncsu.edu Sun Dec 7 19:36:06 2003 From: egraham at unity.ncsu.edu (beth) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 19:36:06 -0000 Subject: Page 305 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86645 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kenney" wrote: > My Question is, what does this say in the American version of the > book? How can a wizard mispronounce sorcerer? > > It is in the middle of chapt. 16 : "In The Hog's Head" The phrase is on page 342 of the American edition. "And in our first year," said Neville to the group at large, "he saved that Sorcerous Stone--" "Sorcerer's," hissed Hermione. --Cheers! From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Dec 7 21:52:52 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 21:52:52 -0000 Subject: Room of Requirement/Mirror of Erised/Chamber Pots In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86646 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ebennet68" wrote: > ]Linnea (Lin nay uh): > > ]It was I who postulated that the Mirror of Erised may have been > hidden in the Room of Requirement, possibly also before DD deduced > the rooms unique abilities, back in post #86320. > E Bennet: > I want to apologize for posting on this a little late. I just had to > catch up on the digests that had piled up this week. > I don't believe that the Mirror of Erised was hidden in the Room of > Requirement. After Harry had seen his parents/family in the mirror, > he went and got Ron to have a look at it. In taking Ron back to the > mirror, he would no longer be in need of a place to hide, thus > not "requiring" the room any longer. Remember, DD said that he went > back to investigate the chamber pot room and was unable to find it. > He was unable to find it because he didn't have a need for a chamber > pot at the time. Geoff: (1) I have already suggested that Dumbledore was having a leg-pull at Karkaroff's expense in GOF as he was aware of the fact that others, including Harry. were listening as well. And /if/ it is the Room of Requirement, I cannot believe Dumbledore when he says: "only this morning, for instance, I took a wrong turning...... and found myself in a beautifully proportioned room I had never seen before containing a really rather magnificent collection of chamberpots. When I went back..... the room had vanished." (GOF "The Yule Ball p.363 UK edition). Why? More canon: "'Dobby knows the perfect place, sir!' he said happily. 'Dobby heard tell of it from the other house-elves when he came to Hogwarts, sir. It is known by us as the Come and Go Room, sir, or else as the Room of Requirement!' 'Why?' said Harry curiously. 'Because it is a room that a person can only enter,' said Dobby seriously, 'when they have real need of it. Sometimes it is there and sometimes it is not, but when it appears, it is always equipped for the seeker's needs. Dobby has used it, sir.......... ...and Dobby knows Mr.Filch has found extra cleaning materials there when he has run short, sir'" (OOTP "Dumbledore's Army" p.343 UK edition) How come the house-elves and Argus Filch know about this room and Albus Dumbledore doesn't? (2) I agree with the comment above about Harry' return to the Mirror of Erised and have already suggested that it wasn't in the RoR because Harry wasn't looking for it and when he returned, he didn't go through the routine outlined by Dobby. Geoff From blondeangelkiss at yahoo.com Sun Dec 7 21:50:28 2003 From: blondeangelkiss at yahoo.com (Bridget) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 21:50:28 -0000 Subject: Wolfsbane and vampires In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86647 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "romerskesims" wrote: > I read a HP quiz book with questions about the 1-3 book (It's a > Danish book, and I don't think it's available in English), and there > was a question saying "What creature does wolfsbane protect against? > Yetis, vampires or trolls?" and the answer was "vampires"...but > where is that mentioned in the books? > And if it's true, then the vampire!Snape-theory is useless, since he > as a vampire wouldn't be able to make the wolfsbane potion, right? > > > "romerskesims" >From what I remeber of the books, wolfsbane was only mentioned twice: when Snape was questioning Harry about his knowledge of potions and their ingridients and when Lupin explains about how he and Harry's dad, Sirius and Peter all used to be freinds he says something to the effect of : When I came to hogwarts the wolfbane potion hadn't been discovered yet. This fits with my past expeirinces with wolfsbane. In all the books I've read wolfsbane has always been used in reference to protection against werewolfs, not vampires. In fact the only mention of it in reference to vampires that I recall is in Belle Lugosi's Dracula. I might be wrong, i does happen, but I'm pretty sure that wolfsbane hasn't been mentioned in any of the HP books in relation to vampires, so I think that the makers of that quiz book probably had knowledge of the dracula connection and used that for the question rather than information actually found in the books. however, i must admit, aside from my looking up the two mentions on wolfsbane i recalled earlier, its been a awhile since I've reread the books, so if I've forgotten a mention of it, please let me know, cause I too agree that wolfsbane being a deterant to vampires disproves the Snape is a Vamp theory, which is definately a theory I support. Bridget From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Dec 7 21:19:21 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 21:19:21 -0000 Subject: The Diary (just where did V get it & what is really going on ?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86648 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" bboy_mn: > Excellent analysis. Please forgive me for not addressing it item by > item; I'm just going to make a few general comments. > > First point, the USA edition says that the book is from a "variety > story" on Vauxhall Road. My guess is, the impicaition is that the book > came from a newstand or shop that specializes in periodicals and cheap > paperback books as well as a few miscellaneous novelty and convinience > items. In any event, both UK and US books seem to indicate that the > name on the back and reference to Vauxhall Rd represent the store and > not the publisher. Geoff: The UK edition specifically says "a newsagents". If the name was printed at the back, a possibility is that it could be W.H.Smith, the name of a large chain of stores which used to specialise in newspapers, magazines,office supplies and now have video, music items etc. There are still a couple of W.H.Smith outlets in and around Victoria Station. bboy_mn: > Now let's look at the actual book. If it was a 'year' diary where each > day of the week is specifically associated with a calendar date, then > things become a little more complicated. Geoff again: Another poster has reminded us that it apparently is dated because both Hermione and Harry notice dates.... bboy_mn: > I can further speculate that because the Vauxhall Rd area was > damaged by the war, much of the merchandise from damage stores would > have been salvaged and put on the surplus market. An attempt by the > owners to recover as much as they could from the destruction. Geoff again: I moved from the north of England to live in south-west London in 1949 and often went with my parents up to the city to spend time; we often used a tram to get to Victoria. The tram route followed Vauxhall Bridge Road from Vauxhall Bridge to its terminus just outside the mainline railway station. The Victoria end of the road and, in fact much of the area around the station, managed to escape the bombing and was relatively intact. The only part of Vauxhall Bridge Road where you really any shops was at the Victoria end, because the station was, and still is, a very busy commuter terminus. Ten years after I first knew it, I commuted into Victoria for a year while in an office job and often used Smiths to buy things. This actually raises two interesting points as to where Tom Riddle's orphanage was, because if he got the diary in 1942 when he was in his Fifth Year (or possibly Lower Sixth as I suggested in a recent post), then it suggests it may have been on the South side of the river in London. It also raises the question of how long the Hogwarts Express has run for, because if he was coming into Kings Cross, he would not make a casual journey to Victoria; it's not the sort of journey you can make without changing buses or Underground trains. Geoff From derek at rhinobunny.com Sun Dec 7 21:33:30 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 13:33:30 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Longbottom's Secret Keeper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031207133049.02b758e0@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86649 >dj_bagshaw wrote: >I am assuming that the Longbottoms must have had a secret keeper, >just as the Potters did. If both families fit the constraints of the >prophecy, this would only make sense... They may not have. Remember, the Longbottoms were Aurors. For them to go into hiding during VW1 would have been rather like police officers going into hiding during a riot. They would likely have been more actively involved in the fight on a day-to-day, face-to-face basis than the Potters were. Their duties probably wouldn't allow them to go into hiding. - Derek From ellyn337 at earthlink.net Sun Dec 7 22:16:59 2003 From: ellyn337 at earthlink.net (mclellyn) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 22:16:59 -0000 Subject: crowns and the Alchymical Wedding In-Reply-To: <20031110141417.74523.qmail@web25105.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86650 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ivan Vablatsky wrote: > Harry Potter never ceases to delight and surprise me. I keep finding more > gems hidden away in the nooks and crannies of the story. > ? > I came upon this sentence right in the beginning of chapter 10 of OoP. "Mrs > Weasley sobbed over Kreacher's dead body, watched by Ron and Hermione who > were wearing crowns." > McLellyn wrote: I don't find this in my Chapter 10 of OoP which is titled Luna Lovegood. Can you be more specific? Mrs. Weasley sees Harry's dead body (really a boggart) last per page 176 of my copy. After Harry discovers her it says that Sirius, Moody, and Lupin came in to see what was going on. I'm wondering if you had one of those realistic dreams like I have sometimes where I have trouble remembering what is real and what was a dream. Direct me in the right direction. Thanks, Gadfly McLellyn From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Sun Dec 7 22:35:07 2003 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 22:35:07 -0000 Subject: crowns and the Alchymical Wedding In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86651 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mclellyn" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ivan Vablatsky > wrote: > > Harry Potter never ceases to delight and surprise me. I keep > finding more > > gems hidden away in the nooks and crannies of the story. > > ? > > I came upon this sentence right in the beginning of chapter 10 of > OoP. "Mrs > > Weasley sobbed over Kreacher's dead body, watched by Ron and > Hermione who > > were wearing crowns." > > > McLellyn wrote: > > I don't find this in my Chapter 10 of OoP which is titled Luna > Lovegood. Can you be more specific? > > Mrs. Weasley sees Harry's dead body (really a boggart) last per page > 176 of my copy. After Harry discovers her it says that Sirius, > Moody, and Lupin came in to see what was going on. > > I'm wondering if you had one of those realistic dreams like I have > sometimes where I have trouble remembering what is real and what was > a dream. > > Direct me in the right direction. > > Thanks, > Gadfly McLellyn It's at the very beginning of chapter 10, in the first lines. Two knuts, Iris From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Sun Dec 7 22:51:55 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 22:51:55 -0000 Subject: Harry's weak spot (was:Re: Choices) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86652 > > Laura: > > You know, I think you may have something really significant there. Harry's Achilles heel has always been his craving for family and love. Marianne: > I have to disagree here. Harry does crave a family, but IMO he's > often unaccountably incurious about his parents. > And that leads me to one of my problems with OoP. Harry spent a fair amount of time in the same location as Sirius. Yet, there is no > canon that they ever talked in depth about Lily and James, that Harry ever took the opportunity to even seek out some time with Sirius to discuss them or ask questions. It strikes a dissonant note with me. It just doesn't seem logical that that would happen. Laura: I can think of some very plausible reasons why Harry didn't seek Sirius out on this topic during the summer in OoP. First, Harry had more urgent information to collect and process. Second, the atmosphere of tension at GP didn't really lend itself to that sort of intimacy-James was already a point of contention between Molly and Sirius. Third, both Harry and Sirius were deeply preoccupied by problems of their own and just wanted to take comfort in each other's company. Fourth, it's really hard for me to imagine a 15 year old boy sitting an adult down and asking the kinds of questions Harry would have had to ask Sirius. The HP characters tend to be pretty reserved on the best of days (with notable lapses, of course). It's not that Sirius wouldn't have answered the questions; I think he would have done so with great pleasure. But it's very hard for kids to begin that sort of conversation, if my experiences are any indicator. Sirius and Remus drop an occasional morsel of information about their school days during Harry's stay at GP and Harry gets to chew over those. It doesn't seem to occur to him to ask for more right then. Harry's reluctance to ask outright about James and Lily is shown by the fact that he only does it in a state of emotional upset. After seeing Pensieve II, he's so distraught that he can't think straight until he gets some answers about what he saw. Not that getting the answers makes him feel all that much better. From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Sun Dec 7 23:17:45 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 23:17:45 -0000 Subject: Looks aren't everything! (was:Re: Sirius / Severus) In-Reply-To: <55268176215.20031205131835@msn.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86653 > Friday, December 05, 2003, 9:24:34 AM, jwcpgh wrote: > > > How many 11 year olds do you know whom you would describe as either handsome or cool? :-) These are young kids at this point. > Susanne While *we* (the parental units, or older generation) might not > consider any of them handsome and cool, they certainly have their > own rules and ideas about who is cool and popular, and who is not. > > And this starts earlier than age eleven! > > In many schools, the rudest kids who are in trouble a lot, > are unfortunately seen as the cool rebels. > > Getting good grades gets you somewhere with the teachers and > parents, but not necessarily with your classmates. In fact, > it could cost you popularity points. > > So, I could easily see Sirius becoming popular for his > arrogance and bullying, helped by good looks. > > It's a common thing for the popular crowd to pick on one or > two unpopular kids, and once this pattern is locked in, it > seems very hard to overcome. > > One little thing could have caused Snape to stand out and > be picked as the one, and things developed from there? Laura replies: Sadly, all of that is true. In Sirius's defense, though: Sirius, along with James, were the best students in the school, according to several sources (Remus in OoP, McGonagall in PoA). They weren't exactly James Dean types. And I don't see Hogwarts as the kind of school where anti-social behavior is prized by the kids. Other people may feel differently about that, though. There's difference of opinion as to whether Sirius was a bully or not. We know only about his friendship with the other Marauders and his dislike of Snape. We don't know anything about his relations with other students, good or bad. We also don't know the full story of the Snape/Sirius hostility. We don't know how Snape got along with the rest of the students during his time at Hogwarts, at least at the beginning. By the time of Pensieve II, it would seem that not many people could be bothered to come to his defense. Why that would be is something we don't know. It could be negative feelings about Snape, admiration of James and Sirius, fear of James and Sirius, sheer boredom or some combination of those. My point is that we don't know a whole lot more than we do know about Snape and the Marauders at school. It may be early to decide who was the aggressor and who was the victim, or if that description fits at all. Far be it from me to discourage speculation, or ex post facto rationalization, but I also appreciate tying these flights of fancy to a nice solid canon. From wolfiesmom98 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 7 22:29:47 2003 From: wolfiesmom98 at yahoo.com (WOLFIESMOM98) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 22:29:47 -0000 Subject: Speculations for year 6 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86654 Hi folks I've been a member for a while but this is my first post. It is just things I hope will happen in year 6 1. Harry is rescued from the Dursleys early in the summer so he can spend his Birthday with the Weasleys and have a real birthday party. 2. He passed all his owls. Astronomy will be tested again bcause everyone was distracted. Hermione of course got number 1 scores. 3. Krum comes to visit Hermione and she breaks up with him in front of Ron. 4. Neville learns that he actually has more power than he thinks and just needs confidence. Thinking of these things makes the time go faster as I wait for the next book. From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Sun Dec 7 23:58:33 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 23:58:33 -0000 Subject: Looks aren't everything! (was:Re: Sirius / Severus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86655 > > Laura: > > > > How many 11 year olds do you know whom you would describe as either handsome or cool? :-) These are young kids at this point. I think kids of that age are very aware of when something is physically out of the norm but they have no real way to appreciate great beauty. > Carol: > I disagree. Eleven- and twelve-year-old are already masters of ostracism and teasing. For an example of a child who was unpopular at least in part because of her appearance, we need only look as far as Moaning Myrtle. > > Snape would have been in much the same position. As long he had older Slytherins to protect him, he could avoid anything worse than the confrontations we see between Draco and Harry (which, admittedly, have no connection with looks), but once Lucius and his friends were gone, James could hex Severus with (relative) impunity just "because he exists"--because he's not cool like you and me, Sirius, because he's skinny and has a big nose and has greasy hair. And, oh, yeah, he's a Slytherin and likes the dark arts. So he's just a git and he deserves what we give him. Severus hexed him back, of course, but not because James "existed." When Severus first entered Hogwarts, OTOH, he had no reason to dislike handsome Sirius of the ancient and noble house of Black and athletic, popular James other than that they were Gryffindors. If they had uncharactericteristically offered him the hand of friendship to Severus, ignoring his looks and all the other things they found unattractive about him, I very much doubt that he would not have turned them down. Laura again: Well, Myrtle's personality probably had more to do with her problems than her looks did. Lots of kids have bad skin (even if most of them don't hex their noses off trying to fix it)but Myrtle brought whining to new levels, it would seem. Now, about "Severus as victim". I still argue that canon is inconclusive on this. We learn that James and Snape hated each other on sight (DD says this in SS/PS). I seem to recall some reference to James and Snape hexing each other-am I making this up? Anyhow, I can't believe the nastiness was all one-sided. We have no evidence at all for who threw the first curse-but we do know who was the premature expert on the dark arts. Snape is not weak, whatever else he may be, and I don't think he was weak when he came into the school. Where do you get the idea that Snape needed his Slytherin friends to protect him? The only reference we have to them is that they almost all turned out to be DEs. We don't know that they acted as Snape's bodyguards or if Snape even wanted them to do that. I don't know why people expect James and Sirius to have reached across houses to make friends with Snape when that kind of behavior is clearly not the norm at Hogwarts. Nor do I see that Snape ever wanted to be friends with them. We have no idea what, if anything, they knew about each other or each other's families before they got to school. For all we know, the hostility started with Snape. Laura, who respects Snape enough to believe that he gave as much as he got From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Dec 7 23:58:36 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 23:58:36 -0000 Subject: Red robes green eyes, green robes red eye In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86656 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "siriusxisxmyxlover" wrote: > Okay, we know in the HP world the good guy wear red and the bad guys > wear green. But... hold on... doesn't Harry have green eyes... and > wait a minute... doesn't Voldie have red eyes? Ummm hmm! ...edited... > > ... a little detail that clues us in that Harry does have Voldie > inside of him, essentially he is Voldie ...edited... so I think the > eyes are telling us that Voldie and Harry are the same, but it is > their choices that make them very different, but they do have it > inside both of them to go the other way. > > ...edited.. It is all about the choices we make, that ultimately > Harry will make, and Voldemort has already made. So just a little > interesting flip-flop tidbit I thought someone might enjoy. > bboy_mn: Also, note that, in addition to the many points you made, the killing curse is green, and the Stunning Curse is red. I think what we are seeing is an intricate interplay of contrast and similarities; a little tapastry that JKR weaves so very well. Although, were it is all going, I can't tell, but I speculate that when we learn the significants of Harry having his mother's eyes (green) this interplay will finally make sense. In a past post, I said that JKR uses moral ambiguity in her story. Although, it was pointed out that perhaps ambiguity was not the correct term, my point was that even good and evil are intertwined in a way that is not black and white, but varying shades of gray. Harry and many other characters are this way, they are not Brady Bunch good nor are the completely Snidely Whiplash bad (an amazing number of people actually know who Snidely Whiplash is). Harry does bad things, but in a wider perspective, he is basically and consistantly good. Voldemort may at some point show some element of humanity, but from a broad perspective, he is very evil. Harry does things that are techically wrong/bad/illegal, yet he does them for morally sound reasons and for the greater good. Again, we are seeing the interplay of opposites and similarities. > siriusxisxmyxlover: > > ... since all purebloods are inter-related, no matter how distant, > couldn't Voldie, Sirius, and Harry all be extreme distant relations > of Salazar Slytherin AND Godric Gryffindor since pure bloods have > had to inter-marry so much and they are all related somehow. .... > Wait a minute! Is it possible that Dumbledore is an ancestor of > Slytherin. If he's pureblood he's got to be. And the Weasly's too. > I feel though that these relationships are way too distant to be > actual heirs. > bboy_mn: Thoughts alone this line have been discussed extensively. I say that not to imply that you are covering old ground, but simply to confirm that this is a popular and well analysed idea. You are not alone in this belief. I don't fully understand where this is going in the story, but I am convinced that before the story ends, we will find great significants in who is related to whom. Exactly which who is related to which whom, I don't know, but undoubtedly some very important who is related to some equally important whom. Perhaps even several inter-related 'whos' and 'whoms'. > siriusxisxmyxlover: > > ..., at the Ministry of Magic ... duel in OOTP, Dumbledore calls > Voldie Tom and Voldie does not object. ...edited... > bboy_mn: I think calling Voldie 'Tom' was part of head game Dumbledore is playing on Voldemort. In a sense, it is a move on Dumbledore's part to undermine the Dark Lord's confidence. Dumbledore is saying, 'to the world you may be the one so feared his name is never spoken, but we both know you're just Tom Riddle; Tom 'half-blood' Riddle. We both know this is just a sad sick game you are playing, and we both know you can fool everyone but yourself'. Like I said, it's a head game that undermines Voldemort by acknowledging him as nothing more that a poor schoolboy gone astray. > siriusxisxmyxlover: > > ... one more thing ... REALLY bugging me. Ollivander knows that > Voldie has Harry's brother wand, however, Voldie bought it before > he was Voldie, when he was just Tom, Ollivander has got to know > about Voldie's past then, but how? ... Is Ollivander close with > DBD? Is Ollivander close with VDM? Can we trust Ollivander? Has > anyone pondered this before? > > "siriusxisxmyxlover" bboy_mn: You will find very little that hasn't been pondered her before, but we never let that stop us from pondering it again. I am very convinced that Ollivander is a true die-hard unwavering Dumbledore supporter. Remember, the Ollivander family has been in business since (something like) 383 B.C.; nearly 2400 years. That's a long time to hold a respected and trusted position in the wizard world. Being close to and trusted by Dumbledore, I think he and Dumbledore may have, on various occassions, discussed the Voldemort/Riddle connection. It seems that both Ollivander and Dumbledore were very concerned by who would eventually receive the 'brother' wand, and that fact that it was Harry who received it, made it doubly important. I think Ollivander would have reported the purchase of the Brother Wand regardless of who purchased it, but the significance of the fact that the wand chose Harry, was not lost on Ollivander. He contacted Dumbledore immediately. That would have been Dumbledore's first clue, upon Harry's return to the wizard world, that Harry was indeed destined for great things. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Mon Dec 8 00:23:46 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 00:23:46 -0000 Subject: Looks aren't everything! (was:Re: Sirius / Severus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86657 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > There's difference of opinion as to whether Sirius was a bully or > not. We know only about his friendship with the other Marauders and > his dislike of Snape. We don't know anything about his relations > with other students, good or bad. We also don't know the full story > of the Snape/Sirius hostility. My own theory is that Snape, being a loyal Slytherin with a contempt for Muggleborns and a deep interest in the Dark Arts, was everything that the Black family wanted Sirius to be, and thus everything that he hated and violently rejected, especially at the time of the Pensieve flashback (which took place shortly before Sirius ran away from home for good). Sirius had a really schizoid upbringing, when you think about it. Most of his adolescence was spent shuffling back and forth between home, where he was treated as a disgrace and an abomination, and school, where he was treated as the greatest thing since sliced bread. This is *not* a good way to instill a balanced sense of self in a teenage boy. (It's not doing Harry any good, either, but Harry seems more naturally level-headed than Sirius, and has friends who are a better influence.) Unfortunately, I think Snape made a really handy scapegoat for Sirius' family issues. All the supposedly desirable pureblood traits in a geeky, unattractive package. It would've brought out all of Sirius's worst impulses, I'm sure. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 00:25:55 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 00:25:55 -0000 Subject: THe nature of the Unforgivables(was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bang!You're dead.) In-Reply-To: <1070633156.21263.27.camel@Bujold_RH> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86658 > > Angel: > > But this raises an interesting question. In Moody's lesson he talks > > about using AK, and said he wouldn't get a nosebleed if the whole > class > > did it. If Neville had had the torture of his parents uppermost in his > > mind and all the hatred at Crouch, could he have killed Moody, at that > > point, because of it? > > > > > K : > I think, had Neville *known* it was a DE standing in front of him he > *might* have been able to kill him (although I think there's a good chance he'd > only be able to muster that much hatred at the Lestranges), but surely he'd > have had to know that the person he was casting AK on i.e. Moody was in fact > Crouch - if not maybe they should get someone capable of casting the AK, > someone who (presumably) is skilled at Dark Arts and hates Death Eaters > (oh say, Snape) to run through a list of all the known DEs in his head and > cast AK on the new DADA teacher each year if said teacher then suddenly > dropped dead they'd know he/she was an impostor. > > Angel: > The problem is that Quirrellmort wasn't an impostor, he merely had more > attached to him than one might expect. > > Crouch jnr was involved in the torture of the longbottoms, and Neville > would have known that. I'm merely wondering how the focus of hatred > works. Carol: I don't think the identity of the person you're aiming AK at matters--only the anger and hatred of the person casting the spell. The Death Eaters undoubtedly AKd anonymous Muggles and some of the DEs tried to AK Harry's friends in the MoM without knowing who they were. PP succeeded in AKing Cedric without knowing his identity (I'm guessing that, having killed all those Muggles, he was sufficiently evil to cast an AK without having any personal reason to do so other than the powerful motivation provided by the fear of Voldemort). In other words, when you AK a person, you're not saying "Avada Kedavra Barty Crouch!" You're just saying "Avada Kedavra," and if your power and your desire to kill are strong enough, the person will die. So Snape couldn't just aim an AK at the new DADA teacher to see if he or she would die. The person would die whether he hated them or not. As for Nevill, he lacks both the power and the malice to AK anybody, even Barty Jr. if he had known who he was and what he had done. Remember, Harry couldn't successfully Crucio Bellatrix, who had just killed Sirius and was gloating about it. The same thing would have happened to Neville if he had tried to AK Imposter!Moody knowing the full truth. Carol From hpfgumoderator at hotmail.com Mon Dec 8 00:30:47 2003 From: hpfgumoderator at hotmail.com (hpfgumoderator) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 00:30:47 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Possible Threat to the HPFGU Family of Lists Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86659 Dear Members of the Harry Potter for Grownups Family of Lists, We regret the need to interrupt with a post of this nature. For the past several months, we (the List Administration Team) have been handling the disruption of several of the HP lists by an individual or individuals, and it has gotten to a point which we feel to be harassment. In addition, a threat has been made offlist to at least one member of the current admin team, and we are concerned that harassment of list members may have extended to others beyond admin team members. Until now, we have been handling this within the admin team, and have done our best to avoid burdening the lists with this situation - we felt it was an administrative problem, and so should be dealt with internally. Recently, however, we received a message which made it much more than just a list admin problem. We were contacted via the owners address with a frank threat against the lists, indicating that, unless certain demands are met, an irreversible action will be taken that will damage the HPFGU list community. The action was not specified; however, one of our auxiliary HPFGU lists was recently deleted by Yahoo, and the sender of this e-mail apparently took credit for that action, implying that "Terms of Use violations" were reported. Other owner messages have made reference to "holes" in our security. This threat may be as innocuous as the formation of an alternate list. However, we cannot ignore the possibility that serious harm may be intended to the HPFGU family of lists, and we felt it only fair that you should be alerted. This is your list community too. Some of us are concerned that we are being manipulated into complaining on the public HPFGU lists, or forwarding the emails, so a complaint for a violation of Yahoo's Terms of Use could be made. For that reason, we are not providing any names in this email. As our experience with the auxiliary group showed, Yahoo does not give notice before they delete a group. While it might seem incredible that they would delete a group with nearly 90,000 posts and three-plus years of history without investigating the details of an accusation, we have to be cautious, and beg Yahoo to listen to both sides of the story if a complaint is made. We are doing whatever we can to improve security on the lists. We will do our best to avoid any disruption of services, and we ask your understanding if odd things should happen to the lists. We intend to do whatever we can to prevent any damage to the HPFGU family of lists, including deletion of any other lists, should that be the form this threat takes. However, should any HPFGU list(s) become inaccessible, you can visit The Lexicon at http://www.hp-lexicon.org for status updates and, if necessary, relocation information. Finally, in closing, we wish to apologize. We know the unresponsiveness of the admin team has been a source of frustration to many of you. It has been a source of frustration to us as well. We each have only so many hours to devote to HP, and over the past few months, most of them have been devoted to dealing with this situation. It has taken our time, energy, and enthusiasm away from our proper tasks: the fostering and running of these lists. And until this situation is resolved, some of our time must continue to be devoted to dealing with it. So we ask your continuing patience and understanding, while we do everything we can to protect this family of lists. Sincerely, The HPforGrownups List Administration Team From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 00:32:00 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 00:32:00 -0000 Subject: Looks aren't everything! (was:Re: Sirius / Severus) In-Reply-To: <55268176215.20031205131835@msn.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86660 Susanne asked: > Do we know if Snape had any close friends to help offset the > hard time he was having with Sirius and James? > > I'm not surprised Snape joined a group of Slytherins. Maybe > he needed the protection. > Was he the leader of said group? Carol: Far from being the oldest, he was the youngest. The oldest, and presumed leader, was Lucius Malfoy, six years older. Bellatrix, from internal evidence in OoP, was three years older than Snape. The others were probably somewhere in between. It appears that they had all left Hogwarts by the time of the Prank in his fifth year. At that point he had become a loner with no defense except retaliatory hexes. Carol From snapesmate at hotmail.com Mon Dec 8 01:04:52 2003 From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 01:04:52 -0000 Subject: Page 519 - Missing Paragraph In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86661 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > My first impression was that the author of the article just assumed > that the changes were authorized by JKR, but the article indicates > that both JKR's agent and the publishing company, Bloomsbury, > acknowledge these changes at JKR's request. > > I read pg 519 in my UK hard cover edition and it takes place the next morning after Harry > has the dream of Voldemort talking to Rookwood about the correct way > to get the Prophecy for the Dept of Mysteries. > > The next morning, they are standing around in the courtyard discussing > Harry's dream; here is a summary of that page (too long to quote, but > this should help you find the appropriate page in other editions)- > "Sturgis!" gasped Hermione, looking thunderstruck. (Note: she has made > the connection between Sturgis arrest and his attempt to enter a > restricted area of the Ministry) I certainly don't see anything there that could be an error or in need of any kind of correction. I doesn't appear to give away an secrets or clues we shouldn't have at this point in time. And I can certainly see other areas of the book the could have used a rewrite more that this particular section. > bboy_mn Lynnette: This starts on page 588-US version, and is 3/4 of the way down the page. I cannot see anything either, but that is normal for me, LOL! However, the next paragraph talks about Harry's next Occlumency lesson and Snape questions Harry about a memory he spied whilst invading Harry's brain. The memory of a man kneeling in a darkened room. Snape asks Harry how that man and room came to be in his (Harry's) head. I wish they would have noted exactly what was changed or deleted! Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is not a NICE guy! From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Dec 8 01:18:46 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 20:18:46 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Page 519 - Missing Paragraph Message-ID: <78.4c210f44.2d052b76@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86662 In a message dated 12/7/2003 8:07:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, snapesmate at hotmail.com writes: Lynnette: This starts on page 588-US version, and is 3/4 of the way down the page. I cannot see anything either, but that is normal for me, LOL! However, the next paragraph talks about Harry's next Occlumency lesson and Snape questions Harry about a memory he spied whilst invading Harry's brain. The memory of a man kneeling in a darkened room. Snape asks Harry how that man and room came to be in his (Harry's) head. I wish they would have noted exactly what was changed or deleted! Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is not a NICE guy! Sherrie here: According to Mugglenet.com, the paragraph missing from the UK audiobook is: 'Harry was so angry with her he didn't talk to her for the rest of the day, which proved to be another bad one. When people were not discussing the escaped Death Eaters in the corridors, they were laughing at Gryffindor's abysmal performance in their match against Hufflepuff; the slytherins were singing "Weasley is our king" so loudly and frequently that by sundown Filch had banned it out of the corridors out of sheer irritation.' Apparently, this deletion was at the request of JKR - why, I've no more clue than you. Either there's an error in it - or there's something in it that, maybe, gives more away than she intended... Sherrie "As an actor, you've got to have very innocent eyes." - Alan Rickman [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From snapesmate at hotmail.com Mon Dec 8 01:19:17 2003 From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 01:19:17 -0000 Subject: Red robes green eyes, green robes red eye In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86663 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "siriusxisxmyxlover" wrote: > Okay, we know in the HP world the good guy wear red and the bad guys > wear green. But... hold on... doesn't Harry have green eyes... and > wait a minute... doesn't Voldie have red eyes? Ummm hmm! Knowing J.K. > Rowling this isn't coincidence because honestly, nothing in these > books are coincidences (for all of you who haven't red WWP's > Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter you should because > it blatantly gives extensive canon for this for books 1-4 and canon > can be found for it in book 5 as well, it is actually one of their > rules for sleuthers, nothing is coincidence in the HP universe). > > Well ANYWAY, knowing J.K. Rowling this means something or it could be a red > herring but if it does I take that it is a little detail that clues us > in that Harry does have Voldie inside of him, essentially he is Voldie > only the opposite of Voldie Oh and one more thing that was REALLY bugging me. > Ollivander knows that Voldie has Harry's brother wand, however, Voldie > bought it before he was Voldie, when he was just Tom, Ollivander has got > to know about Voldie's past then, but how? This was buggin me so much! Is > Ollivander close with DBD? Is Ollivander close with VDM? Can we > trust Ollivander? Has anyone pondered this before? PLEASE WRITE BACK > YOU GUYS THIS IS MY FIRST POST! > > "siriusxisxmyxlover" Lynnette: Professor McGonagall wears green robes. I know it is in the movies that her robes are green, but this type of thing would have to remain true to canon if it was part of the whole plot devise thing. hhmm... fuel for the spy!McGonagall camp? LOL! I had assumed it was no secret in the WW that Voldemort was once Tom Riddle. Also, I think there is more to Mr. Ollivander than making and selling wands. He remembers EVERY wand he has ever sold and to whom it was sold? That is very unusual, don't you think? I had never really thought about his comment to Harry. I do not recall any ohter posts about it either. Thanks for giving me yet another morsel to chew and rehash over and over, LOL! Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is not a NICE guy! From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Mon Dec 8 01:19:23 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 01:19:23 -0000 Subject: Snape's gang of Slytherins (Looks aren't everything! (was:Re: Sirius / Severus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86664 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Carol: > Far from being the oldest, he was the youngest. The oldest, and > presumed leader, was Lucius Malfoy, six years older. Bellatrix, from > internal evidence in OoP, was three years older than Snape. The others > were probably somewhere in between. Nitpick: there's no evidence that Lucius was ever part of Snape's group. When Sirius names the "gang of Slytherins" that Snape hung out with (GoF, P. 461, UK), he mentions only Rosier, Wilkes, the Lestranges and Avery. Aside from the Lestarnges, we have no information on any of their ages. The fact that Snape walked out of his OWL exam alone does suggest that most of his friends were in a different year (otherwise they'd be walking out with him, just as all the Marauders walked out together), but we don't know if they were older or younger. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 01:21:30 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 01:21:30 -0000 Subject: Harry's weak spot (was:Re: Choices) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86665 Marianne: Harry spent a fair amount of time in the same location as Sirius. Yet, there is no canon that they ever talked in depth about Lily and James, that Harry ever took the opportunity to even seek out some time with Sirius to discuss them or ask questions. It strikes a dissonant note with me. It just doesn't seem logical that that would happen. Laura: I can think of some very plausible reasons why Harry didn't seek Sirius out on this topic during the summer in OoP. First, Harry had more urgent information to collect and process. Second, the atmosphere of tension at GP didn't really lend itself to that sort of intimacy-James was already a point of contention between Molly and Sirius. Third, both Harry and Sirius were deeply preoccupied by problems of their own and just wanted to take comfort in each other's company. Fourth, it's really hard for me to imagine a 15 year old boy sitting an adult down and asking the kinds of questions Harry would have had to ask Sirius. The HP characters tend to be pretty reserved on the best of days (with notable lapses, of course). Sirius and Remus drop an occasional morsel of information about their school days during Harry's stay at GP and Harry gets to chew over those. It doesn't seem to occur to him to ask for more right then. Harry's reluctance to ask outright about James and Lily is shown by the fact that he only does it in a state of emotional upset. After seeing Pensieve II, he's so distraught that he can't think straight until he gets some answers about what he saw. Not that getting the answers makes him feel all that much better. Carol: Just a word or two to supplement Laura's response, which I agree with. Harry has been taught not to ask questions by the Dursleys, especially Uncle Vernon. This lesson has, unfortunately, been reinforced by Dumbledore and probably by Snape as well. I seem to recall that on several occasions, he represses the impulse to ask a question. Add to that the embarrassment of an adolescent addressing an adult he likes and admires but barely knows, an adult who also happens to have both a violent and an arrogant streak, and Harry's reticence is entirely understandable. Carol From astrid at netspace.net.au Mon Dec 8 01:31:28 2003 From: astrid at netspace.net.au (Astrid Wootton) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 12:31:28 +1100 Subject: In Essence Divided Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86666 Adi said Order of Phoenix, the Eye of the Snake chapter, when Harry reveals his 'dream', Dumbledore uses a strange silver instrument. What was that? And there is something about 'in essence divided'. What was the thing whose essence was divided? And why did Dumbledore have to look up that thing before calling headmasters? Astrid says I posted on this point on 18/10/03. I repeat the message, because I still feel that there is a clue here to the nature of the relationship between Harry and Voldemort. (Apologies to those that have already read this post.) > The strange comment made by Dumbledore as he watches the smoke form a > serpent?s head. > [OoP Chapter 22 St Mungo?s Hospital UKHB page 415/416] > ?Naturally, naturally,? murmured DD apparently to himself, still observing the > stream of smoke without the slightest sign of surprise. ?But in essence > divided??> > > DD seems to be exploring the nature of the relationship between VM and Harry, > > The comment sounds very much like a reference to that strange mystical poem of > Shakespeare?s ?Let the bird of loudest lay? also known as ?The Phoenix and the > Turtle. The concepts of essence and division are central to the poem as a > whole. One verse goes: > > So they loved as love in twain, > Had the essence but in one, > Two distincts, division none: > Number there in love was slain. > On the 20/1-/03 I posted: > > First: The power of *Love* is central to the mystery of the Prophecy and the > nature of the relationship that exists between Harry and LV. > > Second: The Phoenix and the Turtle(dove) offers a paradigm of Shakespeare?s > obsession with the idea of two-in-one, of doubles, of relations between > substance and shadow. Hence the essence of a separate person is ?appalled? by > the conundrum presented by distinct yet undivided persons: the*selfsame* is > split. > Since then I have not had the time to explore this concept in further detail, but may get round to it after Christmas Astrid [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 01:32:25 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (Laura Horowitz) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 17:32:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Possible Threat to the HPFGU Family of Lists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031208013225.28334.qmail@web41311.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86667 No good deed goes unpunished... Is there anything we, the listees, can do? hpfgumoderator wrote: Dear Members of the Harry Potter for Grownups Family of Lists, We regret the need to interrupt with a post of this nature. For the past several months, we (the List Administration Team) have been handling the disruption of several of the HP lists by an individual or individuals, and it has gotten to a point which we feel to be harassment. In addition, a threat has been made offlist to at least one member of the current admin team, and we are concerned that harassment of list members may have extended to others beyond admin team members. Until now, we have been handling this within the admin team, and have done our best to avoid burdening the lists with this situation - we felt it was an administrative problem, and so should be dealt with internally. Recently, however, we received a message which made it much more than just a list admin problem. We were contacted via the owners address with a frank threat against the lists, indicating that, unless certain demands are met, an irreversible action will be taken that will damage the HPFGU list community. The action was not specified; however, one of our auxiliary HPFGU lists was recently deleted by Yahoo, and the sender of this e-mail apparently took credit for that action, implying that "Terms of Use violations" were reported. Other owner messages have made reference to "holes" in our security. This threat may be as innocuous as the formation of an alternate list. However, we cannot ignore the possibility that serious harm may be intended to the HPFGU family of lists, and we felt it only fair that you should be alerted. This is your list community too. Some of us are concerned that we are being manipulated into complaining on the public HPFGU lists, or forwarding the emails, so a complaint for a violation of Yahoo's Terms of Use could be made. For that reason, we are not providing any names in this email. As our experience with the auxiliary group showed, Yahoo does not give notice before they delete a group. While it might seem incredible that they would delete a group with nearly 90,000 posts and three-plus years of history without investigating the details of an accusation, we have to be cautious, and beg Yahoo to listen to both sides of the story if a complaint is made. We are doing whatever we can to improve security on the lists. We will do our best to avoid any disruption of services, and we ask your understanding if odd things should happen to the lists. We intend to do whatever we can to prevent any damage to the HPFGU family of lists, including deletion of any other lists, should that be the form this threat takes. However, should any HPFGU list(s) become inaccessible, you can visit The Lexicon at http://www.hp-lexicon.org for status updates and, if necessary, relocation information. Finally, in closing, we wish to apologize. We know the unresponsiveness of the admin team has been a source of frustration to many of you. It has been a source of frustration to us as well. We each have only so many hours to devote to HP, and over the past few months, most of them have been devoted to dealing with this situation. It has taken our time, energy, and enthusiasm away from our proper tasks: the fostering and running of these lists. And until this situation is resolved, some of our time must continue to be devoted to dealing with it. So we ask your continuing patience and understanding, while we do everything we can to protect this family of lists. Sincerely, The HPforGrownups List Administration Team Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 01:38:04 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 01:38:04 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86668 Carol: McGonagall seemed to think he [Harry] had the makings of an auror, and I think that's the direction we'll see him and Hermione and possibly even Ron going in Books 6 and 7. But I have another personal and highly uncanonical reason for thinking that Harry (and Hermione, at least) will be in Snape's Potions class: I can't imagine JKR depriving herself and us of the pleasure of reading the Harry/Snape scenes. So unless Snape becomes the DADA teacher (in which case he'll still have Harry as his student), Harry will be in advanced potions. Maybe, to Snape's enormous dissatisfaction, Neville will be, too. > Cassie Here: > > I wonder if Harry's new found, stronger hatred towards Snape will block him > from achieving his goal to be an Auror. I mean, Harry does blame Snape for > Sirius's death. And I imagine he's not going to decide to forgive and forget over > the summer. I can imagine Harry wanting to drop NEWT Potions even if he get > in just so he wouldn't have to be in the same room with Snape. Carol: The narrator's comment, "He would never forgive Snape. Never!" certainly reflects Harry's POV at the end of OoP, but it can't reflect a permanent state of mind simply because Harry will have to come to grips with Sirius's death and who is really responsible. He knows that Snape did his best to prevent Sirius from going to the MoM and I think he understands why Snape could not go there himself. He and Snape will have to work together somehow in the last book, and I hope they'll come a few steps closer to a mutual understanding (though not mutual affection) in Book 6. In any case, we can't see Snape from any POV except Harry's, and Snape is an important character, so if we're going to have any Harry/Snape interaction, Snape will have to continue to be Harry's teacher. (I'm assuming that the class will be NEWTS potions and that Snape won't teach DADA until either Book 7 or the end of VW2, but that's because I think the DADA post will be Snape's reward for proving his loyalty to Dumbledore.) BTW, I'm wondering whether the Order will continue meeting at 12 Grimmauld Place now that Sirius is dead. If so, Harry may have to interact with Snape there as well, or at least to overhear his conversations with the other members. But that would only supplement, not substitute for, the Snape/Harry interaction at Hogwarts. Carol, who thinks that Harry really does want to be an auror and will need to take NEWT Potions to achieve that goal From derek at rhinobunny.com Mon Dec 8 01:05:07 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 17:05:07 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Overturning the prophecy (was Re: Choices)? In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20031205003337.024aeec0@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031207162523.02b87b30@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86669 >Derek: >> the prophecy says that "either must >> die at the hand of the other." If a Dementor killed LV, then he >> wouldn't have died at Harry's hand. > >madeyesgal: >Suppose the prophecy isn't correct. Free will always plays into >future events, especially when the outcome is supposed to be known. Derek: That is of course a possibility. But of course, if the prophecy isn't correct, then nearly anything could happen. :) DD says that Trelawney's prophecy in PoA is "her second *correct* prophecy" (added emphasis mine). So DD, at least, believes the prophecy under discussion (her first one) to be correct. However, that's not to say that the prophecy really means what it seems to. Although I offered one literal fulfillment (Harry slaying LV with Gryffindor's sword), there are many other, less literal ones. >madeyesgal: >It's entirely possible that Neville is the prophesied Voldemort >destroyer. Maybe he's killed during the fight and Harry actually defeats >Voldemort in the manner I suggested earlier. Derek: Now this is interesting! Specifically, that Neville could be the one that dies. I agree with DD that Neville isn't likely to be the one who vanquishes LV. That would be a mighty big left turn after Harry has been the hero for seven books, and I think many readers would feel victimized by a bait-and-switch if Harry isn't the one who ultimately brings about the Dark Lord's defeat. However, if you read the prophecy carefully, it just says that a boy "with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord" approached and that neither of them could live while the other survived. Note that it doesn't actually say that this boy *does* vanquish the Dark Lord! So what if Neville *is* the boy mentioned in the prophecy? Neville could have the power to vanquish LV (but be unable to use it) and LV could kill him. At this point, the prophecy would be fulfilled. But that doesn't mean that Harry can't proceed to still defeat LV. The prophecy never says that *only* the boy it speaks of has the power to defeat LV... The main flaw in this interpretation is that the Dark Lord is supposed to "mark him as an equal." If he's going to do that to Neville, it doesn't look like he's done it yet. >madeyesgal: >And...Harry could kill LV with Gryffindor's sword. Your ending is as >good an any other. My (melo)dramatic sword-wielding idea isn't really likely, I admit. It seems too violent a way to wrap up the series -- out of character for JKR. :) What I truly suspect will happen is that the prophecy will prove to be true. However, it will turn out not to have meant the obvious (that Harry would kill LV, LV would kill Harry, or both would kill each other). The real end result will be something else that doesn't require one slaying the other, yet still somehow fulfills the prophecy. >Madeyesgal (convinced that Snape will turn out to be a hero) Derek: I agree. I'm 99 and 44/100ths percent sure that Snape is worthy of DD's trust and that he's firmly a good guy. (Albeit not a *nice* guy. ;) - Derek From alina at distantplace.net Mon Dec 8 01:44:22 2003 From: alina at distantplace.net (arealin) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 01:44:22 -0000 Subject: Red robes green eyes, green robes red eye In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86670 > > Wait a minute! Is it possible that Dumbledore is an ancestor of > > Slytherin. If he's pureblood he's got to be. And the Weasly's too. "Ancestor" of a person who lived centuries before his time? Now that's a very Rowlingian slip! >I don't fully understand where this is going in the story, but I am >convinced that before the story ends, we will find great >significants in who is related to whom. I think a lot of the significance of this fact comes through in that it is Lily's love for Harry that is protecting him and thus needs to be maintained by Harry living in an Evans household. After all, James died to protect Harry too, didn't he? But if his love had the same effect, then Harry could be placed in any number of wizarding households, possibly including the Weasleys! Hmmm Harry raised in a loving wizarding environment... no we wouldn't want that, would we? >I am very convinced that Ollivander is a true die-hard unwavering >Dumbledore supporter. Remember, the Ollivander family has been in >business since (something like) 383 B.C.; nearly 2400 years. That's >a long time to hold a respected and trusted position in the wizard >world. You know, personally, I'm fairly convinced that the position of a respected and trusted wizard comes with neutral territory. In other words, I'm pretty sure the Ollivanders could be a family that doesn't join and is never asked to join conflicts. Think about it, if they were on a side, they could simply refuse to provide wands for the other side. Since Ollivander's wands are the best, that would give his side an advantage, wouldn't it? So, I'm pretty sure, Ollivanders are most likely to be neutral. From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Dec 8 00:11:31 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 00:11:31 -0000 Subject: crowns and the Alchymical Wedding In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86671 Hans from Holland: ? > > > I came upon this sentence right in the beginning of chapter 10 > of > > OoP. "Mrs > > > Weasley sobbed over Kreacher's dead body, watched by Ron and > > Hermione who > > > were wearing crowns." McLellyn: > > I don't find this in my Chapter 10 of OoP which is titled Luna > > Lovegood. Can you be more specific? > > > > Mrs. Weasley sees Harry's dead body (really a boggart) last per > page > > 176 of my copy. After Harry discovers her it says that Sirius, > > Moody, and Lupin came in to see what was going on. > > Iris: > It's at the very beginning of chapter 10, in the first lines. Geoff: But it is not part of Mrs.Weasley's Boggart troubles, it is part of a *dream* which Harry is having... "Harry had a troubled night's sleep" - the first words of Chapter 10. He dreams of his parents, of Ron and Hermione - with crowns - and that corridor again. From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 02:01:56 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 02:01:56 -0000 Subject: Looks aren't everything! (was:Re: Sirius / Severus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86672 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marinafrants" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > > There's difference of opinion as to whether Sirius was a bully or > > not. We also don't know the full story of the Snape/Sirius hostility. > Marina > My own theory is that Snape, being a loyal Slytherin with a contempt for Muggleborns and a deep interest in the Dark Arts, was everything that the Black family wanted Sirius to be, and thus everything that he hated and violently rejected, especially at the time of the Pensieve flashback (which took place shortly before Sirius ran away from home for good). > > Sirius had a really schizoid upbringing, when you think about it. > Most of his adolescence was spent shuffling back and forth between > home, where he was treated as a disgrace and an abomination, and > school, where he was treated as the greatest thing since sliced > bread. This is *not* a good way to instill a balanced sense of self in a teenage boy. Unfortunately, I think Snape made a really handy scapegoat for Sirius' family issues. All the supposedly > desirable pureblood traits in a geeky, unattractive package. It > would've brought out all of Sirius's worst impulses, I'm sure. > > Laura again: Marina, I hate to admit it, being a big fan of Sirius's, but I think your observations are extremely insightful. They would explain why Sirius was so active a part of the Snape-baiting that went on. If James and Snape had a problem, James didn't need Sirius's help to deal with it, really. But Sirius, if Pensieve II is typical, took great pleasure in encouraging James if not actively doing the hexing himself. It would also explain why Sirius even bothered to tell Snape to follow Remus on the night of the Prank. This is not to say that I don't think Snape committed his share of sins. I'm sure he did. But I would guess that they were mostly directed at James-that's the impression I get from the books, anyhow. Your ideas would also explain the rage Sirius exhibits towards Snape in OoP. Having Snape, the perfect Slytherin, at Grimmauld Place, where he would have fit in so well, must have felt to Sirius like having his beloved mother back in the flesh. And if one agrees with the listees who suggest that Sirius didn't have much opportunity to mature in Azkaban (which I do), one can see that Snape's presence in that detested place would have sent Sirius right back to his Hogwarts mindset, if he'd managed to leave any of it behind. You can also reverse the theory and suggest that Snape was jealous and resentful of Sirius, who had everything Snape wanted but loathed and rejected it. Imagine Snape's personality and abilities in Sirius's body and with Sirius's advantages. Scary... From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 02:04:55 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 02:04:55 -0000 Subject: THe nature of the Unforgivables(was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bang!You're dead.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86673 Angel: Crouch jnr was involved in the torture of the longbottoms, and Neville would have known that. I'm merely wondering how the focus of hatred works. > > I suspect that hatred would not be enough. > > Crouch!Moody also says that "AK's a curse that needs a powerful bit of > magic behind it" and that he's "not going to teach them how to do it." > > Presumably the same sort of conditions apply to the other two > 'unforgivables' as well. A user would need to learn them and the wizard > needs to have more than average power to cast them successfully. So > it's a bit more than just waving a wand and saying Crucio!. > > The question then arises, when and where did Harry learn the basics of > the Crucio! curse? > > Another bit of Voldy to go along with his Parceltongue gift? > > Kneasy Carol: Possibly when Voldemort used it on him in the graveyard? But I don't think there are any "basics" beyond the word itself, the power of a full-fledged wizard, and the will to inflict pain. Harry clearly lacked the last two items on the list. As for "the focus of the hatred," I'm pretty sure it focuses on the person that the wand is aimed at, whom it is not necessarily to hate personally any more than Crouch!Moody personally hated the spiders he tortured and killed in his DADA lesson. (And as I noted in another post, Peter Pettigrew had no personal grudge against Cedric. You simply "aim" all your anger and ill will at your intended victim, regardless of the presence or absence of personal feelings.) I very much doubt that Neville will ever cast an Unforgiveable Curse. He's had about fourteen years to come to terms with his parents' condition and its cause and he has never, as far as we can tell from observing him, harbored a desire for revenge. He will fight for justice, but he will never use the enemies' weapons or emulate them in any way. just my opinion. Carol From derek at rhinobunny.com Mon Dec 8 01:26:40 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 17:26:40 -0800 Subject: It's A Wonderful Life? (was re: Overturning the prophecy) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031207170551.024a69e0@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86674 >> Rachel: >> Just a small note that JKR might have been trying to give a hint >> in the scene after the prophecy has smashed in OOtP (british version >> pg 814) between DD and Voldie: >> >> "You do not seek to kill me dumbledore?..." - Voldie >> >> "We both know that there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom... >> Merely taking your life would not satisfy me, I admit-" - DD >> >> "There is nothing worse than death, Dumbledore!" - Voldie. >> >> "You are quite wrong... Indeed your failure to understand that there >> are things much worse than death has always been your greatest >> weakness-" - DD > >madeyesgal: > >In an earlier post, I (tongue in cheeck) suggested that Harry and LV >fight it out in the end, Harry disarm LV and in the end a dementor >administers the "kiss" to Voldmort. [snip] >Couldn't this be what Dumbledore was talking about..."there are >things much worse than death...? Derek: Taking a page from Frank Capra's classic film "It's a Wonderful Life," I wonder if Dumbledore was talking about making it so that LV had never existed? It's easy to see why merely taking LV's life would not satisfy DD. It's not because DD is so bloodthirsty... it's because LV's presence in the world has caused so much pain and death. What if DD meant that he would only be satisfied if LV had never existed, and all the evil he had done was reversed? Perhaps they could somehow arrange things (time travel? an obscure spell?) so that history is altered such that Tom Riddle never becomes Lord Voldemort. Maybe the ultimate solution is not for Harry to kill Lord Voldemort, but for Harry to *prevent* "Lord Voldemort" and *redeem* Tom Riddle by somehow turning him away from this course before he ever takes it. DD made much of the fact that Harry's asking the Sorting Hat not to put him in Slytherin made him different from Tom Riddle. Otherwise, everyone admits that there are many similarities between the two. What if Harry went back in time (or something) and talked to Tom Riddle before the sorting ceremony... orphan-to-orphan, halfblood-to-halfblood? What if Harry told Tom that his life could be whatever he made of it, that he could ask the sorting hat to put him wherever he wanted to go? Would Tom Riddle have gone bad if he'd been sorted into Gryffindor or Ravenclaw instead of Slytherin? This would fulfill the prophecy neatly. The "Dark Lord" would not survive (even if "Tom Riddle" did) and Harry could live. Tom Riddle has certainly marked Harry as an equal, talking in CoS about how alike they are. Too wild? Have I now convinced you all that I'm crazy? :) - Derek From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Mon Dec 8 02:30:59 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 02:30:59 -0000 Subject: Looks aren't everything! (was:Re: Sirius / Severus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86675 Marina: > > My own theory is that Snape, being a loyal Slytherin with a > contempt for Muggleborns and a deep interest in the Dark Arts, was > everything that the Black family wanted Sirius to be, and thus > everything that he hated and violently rejected, especially at the > time of the Pensieve flashback (which took place shortly before > Sirius ran away from home for good). > Laura again: > > Marina, I hate to admit it, being a big fan of Sirius's, but I think > your observations are extremely insightful. They would explain why > Sirius was so active a part of the Snape-baiting that went on. If > James and Snape had a problem, James didn't need Sirius's help to > deal with it, really. But Sirius, if Pensieve II is typical, took > great pleasure in encouraging James if not actively doing the hexing > himself. Marina again: Yes, that Pensieve scene did leave me with the impression that while the bulk of the enmity was between Snape and James, Sirius definitely had his own stake in it, and it was more than just solidarity with James. Laura: > You can also reverse the theory and suggest that Snape was jealous > and resentful of Sirius, who had everything Snape wanted but loathed > and rejected it. Oh, yes. Few things are more infuriating than watching somebody else reject something that you desperately want for yourself. And the return to 12 Grimmauld Place in OOP would be a replay of that for Snape, as well as for Sirius (especially if you consider the possibility that Snape may have visited the place himself as a boy, through connections with either Bellatrix or Regulus). And the Blacks werent' DEs themselves (except for Regulus, who died trying to quit), so Snape can't even lump them together with the evil past that he himself rejected. Marina (who thinks Snape would've gotten along really well with Phineas Nigellus) rusalka at ix.netcom.com From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 02:36:38 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 02:36:38 -0000 Subject: Did James and Lily know about the prophecy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86676 Madmaxime: I believe it was her [Lily's] last ditch effort to save him [Harry], if all else failed. She knew that Voldemort was willfully ignorant of this type of protection, and so would not be expecting it. I believe she had the spell set in place, waiting to be activated before Voldemort even entered the room. Yolanda: > I believe she cast the spell in advance as well. > The charm she cast that protects Harry is pretty > powerful. It is possible that she was that good > at charms and did cast the spell that night, but > I'd always thought it sounded like something that > required a bit more preparation. Carol: Without actually taking a stand in favor of this intriguing theory, I want to mention that there's at least one bit of canonical support for it. When Harry visits Ollivander's in SS/PS (p. 82 Am. ed.), Ollivander tells him that he remembers every wand he ever sold, including James's ("excellent for transfiguration") and Lily's ("nice wand for charm work"). We've already learned at least part of the reason why James's skill in transfiguration is important (he was an animagus). We haven't yet learned much about Lily, but we can be sure that her skill with charms will play a role later. She may also have cast the Fidelius spell making Peter the Secret Keeper, but that probably isn't the crucial peice of information about her that JKR is reserving for Book 7. A deliberate charm to protect her child's life would fit the bill nicely, however, and would show just how very much Voldemort underestimated her by calling her a "foolish girl." Carol From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Mon Dec 8 02:45:21 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 15:45:21 +1300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] It's A Wonderful Life? (was re: Overturning the prophecy) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031207170551.024a69e0@mail.rhinobunny.com> References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031208153804.02216690@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 86677 At 17:26 7/12/2003 -0800, you wrote: >Derek: wrote >Taking a page from Frank Capra's classic film "It's a Wonderful Life," >I wonder if Dumbledore was talking about making it so that LV had >never existed? It's easy to see why merely taking LV's life would >not satisfy DD. It's not because DD is so bloodthirsty... it's >because LV's presence in the world has caused so much pain and >death. What if DD meant that he would only be satisfied if LV had >never existed, and all the evil he had done was reversed? > >Perhaps they could somehow arrange things (time travel? an obscure >spell?) so that history is altered such that Tom Riddle never becomes >Lord Voldemort. Maybe the ultimate solution is not for Harry to kill >Lord Voldemort, but for Harry to *prevent* "Lord Voldemort" and >*redeem* Tom Riddle by somehow turning him away from this course before >he ever takes it. > >DD made much of the fact that Harry's asking the Sorting Hat not to >put him in Slytherin made him different from Tom Riddle. Otherwise, >everyone admits that there are many similarities between the two. >What if Harry went back in time (or something) and talked to Tom Riddle >before the sorting ceremony... orphan-to-orphan, halfblood-to-halfblood? >What if Harry told Tom that his life could be whatever he made of it, >that he could ask the sorting hat to put him wherever he wanted to go? >Would Tom Riddle have gone bad if he'd been sorted into Gryffindor or >Ravenclaw instead of Slytherin? > >This would fulfill the prophecy neatly. The "Dark Lord" would not >survive (even if "Tom Riddle" did) and Harry could live. Tom Riddle >has certainly marked Harry as an equal, talking in CoS about how alike >they are. > >Too wild? Have I now convinced you all that I'm crazy? :) > >- Derek Tanya here No, doesn't sound crazy to me. The problem with LV is what to do to or for him so no one can ever bring him back in any form. A 2nd deflected AK might not end it for real. However, this question is one I have, regarding this theory, I would like to know what would then happen to all LV's actions the first time round. Would they exist or not? But it would neatly fix the prophecy, maybe without another war. Who knows. Tanya From junkypunky0987 at hotmail.com Mon Dec 8 01:08:19 2003 From: junkypunky0987 at hotmail.com (junkypunky0987) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 01:08:19 -0000 Subject: Hog's Head Barman Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86678 Quote from OotP pg. 336: "The barman sidled toward them out of a back room. He was a grumpy-looking old man with a great deal of long gray hair and beard. He was tall and thin and lookied vaguely familiar to Harry." When has Harry seen the barman from the Hog's Head? "junkypunky" From siriusxisxmyxlover at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 02:23:22 2003 From: siriusxisxmyxlover at yahoo.com (Samantha Hilsenrod) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 18:23:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Red robes green eyes, green robes red eye In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031208022322.77000.qmail@web40205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86679 Just some more cannon for our Ollivander speculating: In the COS when Colin Creevy is petrified, McGonnagal asks who could have done this? DBD ask not who but how. DBD trusts McGonnagal above all others as far as we can tell. We also know he trusts Lupin, Snape, Hagrid, Sirius, and the Weaslys but he does seem to have a little more faith in McGonnagal (he does give her the Deputy Headmaster position). If he wouldn't tell McGonnagol about Tom Riddle (her who? comment) then who would he tell? Is he that close with Ollivander? Or is Ollivander evil? "Samantha" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ From siriusxisxmyxlover at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 02:51:37 2003 From: siriusxisxmyxlover at yahoo.com (Samantha Hilsenrod) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 18:51:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] It's A Wonderful Life? (was re: Overturning the prophecy) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031207170551.024a69e0@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: <20031208025137.62640.qmail@web40209.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86680 Nothing is too wild in these books. But I don't think that would happen because it would reverse too much and make too much difference in what could be, if youu get what I'm saying? I think that's why they don't use the time turner to reverse things like the Potter's death and what they thought Sirius had done. There are too many possible repercussions if you change what was meant to be, and what the characters would choose. You could upset the fabric of time. DBD is wise and he would realize it. Why, do you ask then, did they allow Hermionie to travel back in time to get to her classes? Because it was a trivial matter and not really affecting the big picture. Also, saving Sirius and Buckbeak just happened that night not very big not having possible huge reprucussions (Buckbeak is just a hippogriff and actually they got to Black just in time so they only really changed Buckbeak's fate directly by going back in time, Black was sort of indirect I think (they got there just in time with Buckbeak who they had saved directly) so Black didn't count. Maybe I'm biased because I am so in love with Sirius. I think he is so sexy and if I could would go into the fifth book (before he dies) and chain him to a bed, I love his Byronic heroness (okay going off on a tangent I will stop now.) "Samantha" From snapesmate at hotmail.com Mon Dec 8 03:05:18 2003 From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 03:05:18 -0000 Subject: Hog's Head Barman In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86681 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junkypunky0987" wrote: > Quote from OotP pg. 336: "The barman sidled toward them out of a > back room. He was a grumpy-looking old man with a great deal of long > gray hair and beard. He was tall and thin and lookied vaguely > familiar to Harry." > > When has Harry seen the barman from the Hog's Head? > > "junkypunky" Lynnette: There has been some speculation that this barman may actually be DD's brother Aberforth Dumbledore. Others say no way. If he is, then Harry may be recognizing some family resemblance. Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is not a NICE guy! From rvotaw at i-55.com Mon Dec 8 03:15:58 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 21:15:58 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hog's Head Barman References: Message-ID: <00e101c3bd39$9a659540$4e9dcdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 86682 junkypunky wrote" > Quote from OotP pg. 336: "The barman sidled toward them out of a > back room. He was a grumpy-looking old man with a great deal of long > gray hair and beard. He was tall and thin and lookied vaguely > familiar to Harry." > > When has Harry seen the barman from the Hog's Head? Richelle: As has already been mentioned, a lot of people think it's Aberforth, Dumbledore's brother. If he vaguely resembled Dumbledore, that would make him look familiar to Harry. But also, there was a faint smell of goats in the Hog's Head. And Aberforth was once accused of using inappropriate charms on a goat. Coincidence? Or hint? I personally think it's a hint, as I am a firm believer in Barman Aberforth. On a related note, I wonder if there's a reason Aberforth and Albus have the same initials. Has Harry ever seen anything with "A. Dumbledore" on it before? I can't think of anything if he has, but I wonder if it could come into play in the future. Richelle From pegruppel at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 03:29:05 2003 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (Peggy) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 03:29:05 -0000 Subject: It's A Wonderful Life? (was re: Overturning the prophecy) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031207170551.024a69e0@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86683 > Derek: What if DD meant that he would only be satisfied if LV had > never existed, and all the evil he had done was reversed? Maybe the ultimate solution is not for Harry to kill > Lord Voldemort, but for Harry to *prevent* "Lord Voldemort" and > *redeem* Tom Riddle by somehow turning him away from this course before > he ever takes it. > Now me: I haven't posted for quite a while (too much *stuff* going on), but Derek has brought up something that's been rattling around my head ever since I read the prophecy. The prophecy seems to be strikingly similar to the pivotal curse in Peter Beagle's novel "The Last Unicorn." (If you haven't read it, do whatever is necessary to find a copy and read it immediately. If you're a member of this list, trust me, you'll like it.) The crux of the matter is that, in the "The Last Unicorn" there is a two-part curse. The first half applies to King Haggard and his castle, and a second half applies to the town of Hagsgate, the "capital" of Haggard's realm. The curse on Hagsgate seems to be necessary in order for the curse on Haggard and his castle to come true. The people of Hagsgate go out of their way to keep themselves and their half of the curse safe (there are some side benefits to the curse). But they let a detail slip. Does the curse come true? Absolutely. Does it work out the way you'd expect it to? Not in the least. I'm not being evasive here, I just want to save the surprise for the listees who haven't read the book. To drag in another apparently unrelated fiction, in the TV series "Babylon 5," one character was told never to go to a certain place or he would die. Well, he went, and he died. Those who had warned him of his death had, however, left out an important detail. His resurrection. "Neither can live while the other survives . . ." The ambiguity of life and death (ghosts who have refused to cross over into death, the destruction of human souls by the dementors) have already been presented by JKR. DD's reply to LV in OoP makes it obvious, without clarifying anything, that the destruction of LV and what he represents is not caught up in the ambiguity of life and death. There are matters of time and memory, choice and decisions, that come into play. The answer must be far more complex than just "bang, you're dead." I won't pretend to know what the ultimate answer is (though it's fun to speculate--the Thestrals, Neville and his parents, Luna, the Weasleys, and on and on). Derek, if you're crazy, then so am I. Peg--who hasn't been reading the list lately, so sorry if I stepped on any toes. From LinneaLand at CS.com Mon Dec 8 03:03:31 2003 From: LinneaLand at CS.com (thelinnealand) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 03:03:31 -0000 Subject: Room of Requirement/Mirror of Erised/Chamber Pots In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86684 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ebennet68" wrote: > E Bennet writes: I don't believe that the Mirror of Erised was hidden in the Room of Requirement. After Harry had seen his parents/family in the mirror, he went and got Ron to have a look at it. In taking Ron back to the mirror, he would no longer be in need of a place to hide, thus not "requiring" the room any longer. Remember, DD said that he went back to investigate the chamber pot room and was unable to find it. He was unable to find it because he didn't have a need for a chamber pot at the time. >>> Now me: Exactly. But when Harry took Ron to the mirror he "needed" to see his family again. To further muddy the water, I am wondering if the room might exist in different forms simultaneously too: When Fred and George "needed" a place to hide it was a broom closet as it was when Filch needed more cleaning supplies. Yet to the DA it is a classroom; to Dobby a cozy bedroom for Winky.(OoP) Granted, these were separate uses but I wonder. What got me wondering along these lines was "Where does Dobby store those many dozens of Hermione hats so as not to offend the other House Elves?" Why, in a "Closet of Requirement" of course!... hee hee Linnea From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 04:18:30 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 04:18:30 -0000 Subject: Did voldemort mean to allow the DEs to be captured? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86685 Chris wrote: Something that struck me as odd about OOP was the suspicouly easy defeat of a group of adult, experienced, evil death eaters by a group of school children, who, with the possible exception of harry, don't have anything like as much power. So I started to wonder, could Voldemort have planned it on purpose? He gets rid of the ambitous and cunning L. Malfoy and the incredibuly stupid Crabbe and Goyle Senior. Further, it places the Malfoy fortune into the hands of a voldemort worshipper (draco), who lacks the brains to be a threat and has the hatred of Harry to support Voldemort without asking questions. On a different note, a few death eaters in the new wizard prison or Hogwarts could be very useful when voldemort attacks. Jen R responded: The Incompetent!DE's bothers me as well, although I can't think of what purpose it serves for them to be captured. Goyle doesn't appear at the DOM, and surely LV would just AK them if they became too much of a hindrance, rather than invent such an elaborate scheme (although he does like extremely complicated plans). Carol: Jen is right that Goyle Sr. apparently was not present at the raid on the MoM. (I started a thread on this topic a while back.) It could be a Flint but it's also possible that for whatever reason, he simply was not sent to the MoM with his usual companion Crabbe. At any rate, his name is not among those Malfoy lists on p. 788 (Am. ed.) I thought that he might be the Baby-Headed DE caught in the bell jar time warp, abandoned like the injured Nott, but the the bell jar incident happens later (790). Goyle Sr.'s absence could have interesting ramifications if Draco's father and Vincent Crabbe's are in Azkaban and Gregory Goyle's is not. (Lucius Malfoy's treatment of Nott may also have repercussions, but I suppose that's a topic for a different thread.) Jen R. wrote: Azkaban? I wonder who or what is in control of Azkaban now? Is it just protected with spells/enchantments? As Draco tells Harry the DE's won't be in there long without the Dementors, so either the protection is limited or he's just posturing for Harry. My guess is Draco is right and Azkaban has a very limited purpose without the Dementors--acting as a temporary holding cell at best. Carol: New wizarding prison, Chris? Have I overlooked something? I thought that they were sent to Azkaban, which is not without its defenses even with the Dementors gone. It's surrounded by water, for one, and Sirius was able to swim to shore only because he could transform himself into a dog. Maybe Mad Eye Moody will take a temporary post as guard there? Regarding the Malfoy fortune being in Draco's hands, it won't be. His father isn't dead and Draco won't be of age until he's seventeen (and that may simply be the age at which young wizards are allowed to appartate and practice magic outside of school rather than the age of full majority). I very much doubt that Draco would take advantage of his own father's imprisonment, if only because he knows his father is likely to escape and would be seriously displeased if he found that Draco had dared to lay hands on the family fortune. In any case, I don't think Voldemort intended for the DEs to be captured. He clearly wanted the prophecy and had made at least two previous attempts to snatch it (Podmore and Bode). He probably assumed that Harry would be alone and easily overwhelmed by a dozen Death Eaters, but the fact that he sent more than just Lucius and Bellatrix suggests that he anticipated interference from the Order. I seriously doubt that he expected to be deprived of the services of half of his remaining Death Eaters in one night, and there's no indication that any of them, even his "slippery friend" Lucius, had in mind anything other than fulfilling Voldemort's orders and capturing both the Prophcy and Harry. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 04:31:07 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 04:31:07 -0000 Subject: Did James and Lily know about the prophecy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86686 -> iris_ft wrote: > > > Voldemort was dangerous and they had a baby who needed protection, > > like every baby does: Harry was their weak point and it was > > enough to go into hiding. Of course, that's only a point of view. > > > > Two knuts, > > > > Iris > > I admit that Harry complicated matters, but I don't > see him as their "weak point". If Voldemort had been > after them as cuople without any children, they still > would have been safer hiding using the Fidelius charm, > than simply being on the run. > > Yolanda Carol: They knew that he was picking off the members of the Order one by one, but they had defied him three times and were not afraid of him for their own sakes. I think that hearing the Prophecy from Dumbledore and realizing that Voldemort's focus had shifted from them to their defenceless baby drove them into hiding. Only my opinion, of course! Carol From catlady at wicca.net Mon Dec 8 04:59:33 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 04:59:33 -0000 Subject: Voldie & various DEs, mixed with Predestination, Eyes, Borgias, UsedWands &c Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86687 Carol wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPfor Grownups/message/86283 : << (I personally think Bellatrix would be insulted to be referred to as "Voldie's mistress." She's as much a Death Eater as Lucius Malfoy and will Crucio you if you deny it.) >> You didn't object when Kneasy referred to V as Bellatrix's 'squeeze' in msg 86222: "Yes, Bella and her squeeze do enjoy inflicting pain. Is that relevant to everyone else?" While I'm no fan of the word 'mistress', it seems clear to me that Bella is some kind of in love with Voldemort, such as hero-worshipping him. In msg 78548, I described her as "sublimatedly-erotically aroused by his display of POWER". And he seems to have some slight affection toward her, as he does toward Lucius. Carol wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPfor Grownups/message/86315 : << Events may be shaped by the prophecy so that it's self-fulfilling in that regard, but they can't be predetermined or Dumbledore (and JKR) wouldn't place so much emphasis on choice. >> That is a problem JKR got herself into by using the familiar literary appliance of Prophecies, and also by using that of Time Travel. A storyteller can tell stories of prophecies that came true (and of Time Travel) because the history that happens inside the story really IS predestined, no matter how much the characters think they are making their own choices (and no matter how much the author thinks she is depicting a world of free will or even complete lack of any Higher Power). At least, when the characters are on page 1, what happens to them on page 512 is predestined by the time the manuscript is sent to the printer. The world inside a story is always a world which fits the theist religious model: it was created by the Author, who retains control over what happens to the people in it. Miracles sometimes happen. *IF* the real world is not predestined, that is a way it is different than stories. Kathryn Cawte wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/86324 : << I wnder what this emphasis on the importance of choice tells us about Dumbledore who's main choice in several circumstances seems to have been to stand by and let someone else choose (of which more later) [much snippage] It seems to me Dumbledore is full of pretty words but precious few actions. >> This is a complaint often made of God, given the name of 'deus absconditas' (hidden God), and some have said that DD symbolises God. Viewing DD as a person, it may show that he knows (or believes) that all is predestined, so nothing he tried to do to interfere would work anyway. Tanya Swain wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/86372 : << With all this talk about killing curses, I can't help but wonder what Remus and Sirius planned to use on Peter before Harry stopped them. Thoughts anyone? >> >From the way they rolled their sleeves up in order to do it, I imagine that they were going to conjure up some sharp obsidian knives and dice him. Altho' there is much to be said for Angel Moules's suggestion in msg 86555 of "Diffindio on his neck, perhaps?". Laura Walsh wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/86531 : << I seem to remember a brief mention of the fact that Ginny has green eyes too, in OotP. I can't find the quote right now, though. Does anyone know if the Weasley clan has green eyes? >> and Arcum replied in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/86543 : << I'm not sure about the other Weasley's, but Ginny has brown eyes: 'On the third landing, a door stood ajar. Harry just caught sight of a pair of bright brown eyes staring at him before it closed with a snap. "Ginny," said Ron. ' -CoS, Ch 3 >> I think the idea of Ginny with green eyes (which I wish was true!) came from Jim Dale's audio of CoS, in which he said 'green eyes' instead of 'brown eyes' in that passage. I believe that Ron has bright blue eyes, but I haven't been able to find that in canon. JKR doesn't seem to go for revealing characters' eye-colors. She hasn't told us Remus's or Sirius's either. Iggy McSnurd wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/86395 : << I don't know if it's been mentioned or not, but there is a significance of the name Burke in "Borgan and Burkes." (snip) Robert Burke was a man who actually earned his living by murdering people, and selling the bodies to medical schools. >> There's even a nursery rhyme about Burke and Hare: << This rhyme was chanted by the Edinburgh street urchins back in 1828: Up the close and doon the stair, But and ben wi Burke and Hare. Burke's the butcher, Hare's the thief, Knox the boy who buys the beef. >> (from http://www.scotsmagazine.com/bk010352.htm) Is there any significance to the name Borgin other than sounding like Borgia? (and do I have to remind anyone that the Borgia family were pope Alexander V, his sons Cesare and Giovanni, and his daughter Lucrezia with a reputation for poisoning people?) Yolanda wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/86465 : << However, since used wands will work for other wizards, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a used wand shop in Diagon Alley or Hogsmead. Since Charlie's old wand was available for Ron to use, we may not have heard about such a shop yet. >> In CoS, we heard of one in Diagon Alley: "in a tiny junk shop full of broken wands, lopsided brass scales, and old cloaks covered in potion stains they found Percy, deeply immersed in a small and deeply boring book called Prefects Who Gained Power." Carol wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPfor Grownups/message/86466 : << TR wrote the diary in 1943 and left Hogwarts in 1945. It's highly improbable that he carried it around during his travels from 1945-1970 while he was busy transforming himself and trying to become immortal. I think it's much more likely that he left it at Hogwarts in some secure place just before he graduated in 1945, nine years before Lucius was born. TR returned as Lord Voldemort in 1970 when Lucius was about sixteen. If Lucius precociously became a Death Eater as a sixth- or seventh-year student in 1970 or 1971, LV could have informed him where the diary was hidden and asked him to find it and keep it for him. That's the only way I can see Lucius receiving it during LV1. >> Carol wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPfor Grownups/message/86506 : << He must have left it behind him somewhere. It couldn't have been his Muggle father's house, where he had committed three murders. He had no other "home" except an orphanage, and of course he wouldn't have left any possessions there. (I have a feeling that, beyond his clothes, his wand, his schoolbooks, and the diary, he didn't have many possessions to worry about anyway.) >> I admit it would have been reasonable to have left the diary at Hogwarts, where it was intended to be used. Hidden in the Slytherin common room by a spell that made it visible only to Parselmouths, or some such. But I don't think he did the reasonable thing. Julie Inkyquill wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/86582 : << And since Tom was already calling himself Lord Voldemort to his intimates while in school there is a whole generation of friends/allies/afraid-not-to-follow wizards that predate the 1970s and Lucius or even the younger Snape. Perhaps there's a Malfoy Grandmother or Grandfather who went to school with Tom? I suspect that from the moment Tom created the persona of Lord Voldemort, he used his charm and existing anti-muggle prejudice to recruit supporters >> Julie Inkyquill wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/86473 : << And since presumably Malfoy Mansion is a large house & estate it makes sense that Voldemort might have kept a few things in storage there, or even had a permanent guest room, depending on how chummy he was with Lucius >> I don't have canon to prove it, but I believe that one of the 'intimate friends' Riddle met in school was Lucius's father or older brother, who brought his friend Tom home to stay at Malfoy Manor. Lucius was 41 at the beginning of OoP, suggesting that he was born in 1955 (I had previously estimated that he was born in 1950). If Lucius's father was born the same year as Tom, he was 29 when his son was born, a very reasonable age. However, if it were Lucius's older brother who was roughly the same age as TMR and this older brother (whom I invented because I LIKE the idea of Lucius inheriting by murdering his brother and possibly his father!) were born when their father was 25, the father would be 54 when Lucius was born, which is not unreasonable even for Muggle men. Among long-lived wizards, they could even have the same mother! [Diary!Tom's fear of spending the summer holiday in the orphanage indicates that he hadn't been made at home elsewhere by the end of his fith (or sixth, depending) year, which seems a bit unlikely, but he would have tried even harder to wangle the invitation during seventh year, after which he had NO WHERE to go, not even the orphanage.] I figure that TMR, who described himself as "always able to charm the people I needed", made himself liked by the then-head of the family, who invited him to live at Malfoy Manor, and make it his home base during his world travels, and gave him clothes and money and stuff. Thus, he would left all his old school things, including the diary, at Malfoy Manor while wandering. I like to think that those Malfoys also gave him an alibi for murdering the Riddles. With even less canon, I believe that Lord Voldemort was young Lucius's "god"father, and a major influence on him growing up to be so very evil. Carol wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPfor Grownups/message/86537 : << Unfortunately for us, Voldemort is so much older than the other characters except for Hagrid, McGonagall, Dumbledore and possibly the older Weasleys, none of whom became Death Eaters, that we really have no way of testing this theory. None of the current batch of Death Eaters, as far as we know, is of Tom's own generation (in their sixties or thereabouts). >> We don't even know the *names* of all the Death Eaters in the Graveyard circle. Of the names we know, I don't recall any statement of the ages of Nott and MacNair. Of DEs not present at the Graveyard, I don't think we were told the age of Karkaroff except that his hair is white in GoF (but we don't even know if he went to Hogwarts or Durmstrang), and the Daily Prophet captions of the photos of the escaped Death Eaters don't say their ages. Christopher suddenstrike wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/86627 : << Something that struck me as odd about OOP was the suspicously easy defeat of a group of adult, experienced, evil death eaters by a group of school children, who, with the possible exception of harry, don't have anything like as much power. >> Several of them have the excuse of long years in Azkaban that weakened their magic and their sanity. From blackgold101 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 05:02:44 2003 From: blackgold101 at yahoo.com (Marci) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 05:02:44 -0000 Subject: Acronym for Hog's Head Barman In-Reply-To: <00e101c3bd39$9a659540$4e9dcdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86688 > junkypunky wrote" > > > Quote from OotP pg. 336: "The barman sidled toward them out of a > > back room. He was a grumpy-looking old man with a great deal of long > > gray hair and beard. He was tall and thin and lookied vaguely > > familiar to Harry." > > > > When has Harry seen the barman from the Hog's Head? > > Richelle: > > As has already been mentioned, a lot of people think it's Aberforth, > Dumbledore's brother. If he vaguely resembled Dumbledore, that would make > him look familiar to Harry. But also, there was a faint smell of goats in > the Hog's Head. And Aberforth was once accused of using inappropriate > charms on a goat. Coincidence? Or hint? I personally think it's a hint, > as I am a firm believer in Barman Aberforth. > > On a related note, I wonder if there's a reason Aberforth and Albus have the > same initials. Has Harry ever seen anything with "A. Dumbledore" on it > before? I can't think of anything if he has, but I wonder if it could come > into play in the future. > > Richelle I agree that this familiarity to Harry has to do with some resemblance to Albus. BARKEEP Brother Aberforth Really Keep Eyes Excellently Peeled (or does Brother Aberforth Really Keep Everyone Evil Posted? nah!) Marci From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Mon Dec 8 05:18:57 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 00:18:57 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) Message-ID: <112.2c4949b3.2d0563c1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86689 In a message dated 12/7/2003 5:41:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, justcarol67 at yahoo.com writes: > Carol: > The narrator's comment, "He would never forgive Snape. Never!" > certainly reflects Harry's POV at the end of OoP, but it can't reflect > a permanent state of mind simply because Harry will have to come to > grips with Sirius's death and who is really responsible. He knows that > Snape did his best to prevent Sirius from going to the MoM and I think > he understands why Snape could not go there himself. He and Snape will > have to work together somehow in the last book, and I hope they'll > come a few steps closer to a mutual understanding (though not mutual > affection) in Book 6. Cassie: Personally, I'd be a bit dissapointed if I opened up the book and read that Harry forgave and forgot over the summer. Not that I don't think Harry could be mature and come to terms with everything. Take in the last book when no one would tell him what was going on. At first he didn't take that too well...then eventually he understood why he had to be kept in the dark. I mean, there WAS a bit of a build at the end suggesting stronger conflict between the two. Like I said, I would be disappointed if we didn't see some of that. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 05:19:24 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 05:19:24 -0000 Subject: Harry, Parseltongue, and the Basilisk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86690 Derek wrote: I offer another idea for why Harry didn't speak Parseltongue to it [the basilisk]. I suggest that it's possible Harry didn't just fail to think of trying to speak Parseltongue to the Basilisk, nor fail to try it because he didn't think he could command it. Instead, perhaps he failed to try because he was afraid he *could* command it... > > Syndicateblue: > > There are some interesting points in this post but I believe I have > a simpler, better solution to this "problem" that no one has raised > as of yet. ;) > > We all know that being a Parseltongue enables one to communicate > with serpents. Therefore, most people assume that Harry, being a > Parseltongue, would simply be able to tell the Basilisk to leave him > alone and it would relent. However, here's the part that no one > seems to have considered: just because Harry can _talk_ to the > Basilisk does not mean that the Basilisk would obey him. > > Here's my take on the situation: Riddle is pretty much unofficially > established as the Basilisk's master, if not owner. Firstly, he is > the heir of slytherin, and secondly, he has familiarity with the > Basilisk and has known and commanded it in the past. I > would assume here, as Harry probably would, that had Harry tried to > communicate with the Basilsk, it would have either > A) Understood, but completely ignored him. > B) Hear both his command and Riddle's commands simultaneously, but > comprehend that Riddle is its true master and therefore go after > Harry. Carol: I agree and suggested something along these lines in a previous post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/86581 : "I think he [Tom] must have communicated with it before he saw it. Harry heard it talking to itself ("Kill! Kill! Kill!" . . .) as it slithered through [the] pipes. Maybe Tom [also] heard it before he saw it and was able to communicate with it, even command it not to harm him. Possibly it was even intelligent enough to recognize him as Slytherin's heir and therefore its master. Maybe he promised it a chance to kill freely if it would obey him. Maybe he took additional precautions never to look it in the eye; it's likely that he knew it was a basilisk before he ever saw it. Diary!Tom was able to command it. The real Tom must have been able to do so as well." The one person who responded to this post indicated that the basilisk would not have been in the pipes yet, which is true but doesn't negate the possibility of Tom's hearing the basilisk at some point while he was searching every inch of Hogwarts for the Chamber of Secrets. If Tom suspected the basilisk's presence, and I think he must have, he could have found the chamber but waited to enter it until he had communicated with the basilisk through the walls and established his mastery over it as the rightful Heir of Slytherin. Diary!Tom would have reestablished that mastery through the possessed Ginny and retained it when he assumed a substantial form of his own (presumably immune to both the bite and the stare of the basilisk). The basilisk was used to obeying Tom's voice and would have blindly obeyed his order to kill Harry, ignoring any attempts Harry made to convince it to spare him. And of course the basilisk's own wishes would coincide with its master's, making Harry's attempts even more certainly futile. Of course, it's possible that Harry was so busy watching the snake or trying to escape it that it never occurred to him to talk to it, but I doubt that he would have succeeded if he had tried because he wasn't the basilisk's master. Carol From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Dec 8 05:31:28 2003 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 05:31:28 -0000 Subject: Stereotyping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86691 > > As an aside, I like his dwarves - staunch, brave, outspoken, violent, > just like a good prop-forward, but his elves make me cringe. Such > compassion and goodness needs to be severely punished IMO. Okay, so masculine stereotypes are cool, but feminine stereotypes are verboten? Is that what you're saying? > > Similarly, so do the *new* stereotypes so often found in current fiction. > To me, they are such 'right on', politically approved and immaculate > reflections of the image many proslytising activists seem to want to > promote that I wonder if a new and insidious form of censorship is > being imposed in the name of balance. > > I wonder, what would the chattering classes say if books like Lord of > the Flies, Heart of Darkness, Great Expectations, etc. etc. were to be > published now. Lots of comments about lack of well-fleshed out > female characters? No strong positive female roles in Dickens latest > epic? Unacceptable because all the female leads have negative > characteristics? > > Yup..I'd say Dickens represents a time when women were chattel...I can read Dickens easily because he is a product of his times...but these days I expect that my favorite authors, if they are talking about the 20th or 21st century will be slightly more enlightened about the status of women... > > > > > > In JKR's case, it's self-evident that she's opposed to racism and > > discrimination against people who are different in any way (with the > > possible exception of the giants, who do seem rather subhuman-- Hagrid > > and Madame Maxime as half-giants not included). I for one think her > > politics are a little too transparent and that the House Elf business > > comes a bit too close to allegory (it seems too closely patterned on > > American pre-Civil War slavery just as Voldemort is patterned in part > > on Hitler, by JKR's own admission).>>> And it's obvious that Hermione, the character who JKR identifies with most closely is on a path to free those slaves. OoP is pretty clear about that. > > Hmm. I wonder if I'm reading you correctly. Or vice versa. > My original complaint was not with any supposed stereotypes perpetrated > by JKR, (I made more or less the same point about the three elves), but > with the stereotypes that some of the posters want to impose on JKR in > order to make her tale *better*. This I would consider a heinous crime. > It's her story, she'll write it her way and if you (the fans) don't like it, tough. > Accept it for what it is and if you think you can do better, go right ahead. > Complaints about the fate of imaginary beings, gender balance or poor > role models seem pointless, especially as the tale has some way to go > before the loose ends are tied and all is revealed. > > It all hinges on personal attitudes. I refuse to allow anyone to determine > what I think and what I should believe. Maybe I'm a freak, an anachronism. > But the current trend in society of imposed mental hygiene - think this > or you are to be shunned or castigated - makes me take a contrary view > just to be bloody-minded.>>> Oh no, you're not a freak. Lots of us refuse to be told what to think....for example, as a radical feminist, I don't object to Molly at all..in fact I love her and Arthur....great relationship, great nurturing, great family, lots of warm, fuzzy, wonderful stuff.. I've been a stay at home mom myself for a while, due to employment problems, debilitating illness of partner, major illness of partner's mother, and my own mother's death...and it's incredibly hard work. Molly's terrific. Real live feminists, you know the ones that are not vilified and barbecued and lied about by the media, are very supportive of women who work inside the home. Remember, we're the ones who coined the phrase "work outside the home" to be respectful of mothers and household managers....And in fact, I think, a MONUMENT deserves to be erected to SINGLE mothers...how they manage I cannot imagein.... Anyway...my objection to JKR's portrayal of women was that up unti the OoP all the women were defined by their relationships to men..with one exception..Hermione..and one might argue...... I think JKR must have read my earlier posts, because she sure as hell as broken out of THAT mold in OoP...now if everyone was not overtly heterosexual....sigh.... Susan in Michigan P.S. Happy to send you a few beers..what's your favorite? > > From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 05:40:08 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 05:40:08 -0000 Subject: There is Death and then again there is death (was: It's A Wonderful Life?) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031207170551.024a69e0@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86692 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Derek Hiemforth wrote: > > >> Rachel: > >> Just a small note that JKR might have been trying to give a hint > >> in the scene after the prophecy has smashed in OOtP (british version > >> pg 814) between DD and Voldie: > >> > >> "You do not seek to kill me dumbledore?..." - Voldie > >> > >> "We both know that there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom... > >> Merely taking your life would not satisfy me, I admit-" - DD > >> > >> ...edited... > > > >madeyesgal: > > > >In an earlier post, I (tongue in cheeck) suggested that Harry and LV > >fight it out in the end, Harry disarm LV and in the end a dementor > >administers the "kiss" to Voldmort. > [snip] > > Derek: > Taking a page from Frank Capra's classic film "It's a Wonderful Life," > I wonder if Dumbledore was talking about making it so that LV had > never existed? ...edited... > > Perhaps they could somehow arrange things (time travel? an obscure > spell?) so that history is altered such that Tom Riddle never > becomes Lord Voldemort. Maybe the ultimate solution is not for > Harry to killLord Voldemort, but for Harry to *prevent* "Lord > Voldemort" and *redeem* Tom Riddle by somehow turning him away from > this course before he ever takes it. > > ...edited... > > Too wild? Have I now convinced you all that I'm crazy? :) > > - Derek bboy_mn: I have repeatedly said, 'There is death and then again there is death; the two not necessarily being the same. I think when we are dealing with something as abstract, symbolic, and ambiguous as a 'prophecy', we need to be careful not to take things to literally. Death doesn't necessarily have to be stone cold in-your-grave dead. Example; as other's have suggested, the dementor's kiss would kill the essence of evil that is Voldemort totally and completely. Once the kiss was administered, Voldemort would cease to exist even thought his corperal form (his body) would live on. Am I my body, or is my 'Living Self' my mind and spirit? My true Self is no more my body than my physical self is my car. Like my car, my body is merely the vehicle in which my True Self is transported. Possible way in which Voldemort could cease to exist without physical death- - Dementor's Kiss - If Voldemort lost his magic powers, he would be reduced to his worst nightmare; he would become a muggle. A hopeless, helpless wreck of a freak, powerless to live in the wizard world, to much of a hideous freak to exist in the muggle world. I can see Voldemort hanging himself from the nearest tree before he would endure such a torturous life. Utterly destroyed by Harry Potter, who undoubtedly caused his defeat and death, yet dead by his own hand. - Voldemort could be reduce to Tom Riddle. All essence of the evil Voldemort could be gone, leaving behind a more insightful and regretful Tom Riddle to pay the price for his crimes; 'snake man' becomes human again. - Voldemort driven hopelessly insane by a sudden attack of empathy and conscience; a sudden full emotional and spiritual awareness of the magnitude and depth of his crimes. An empathy so strong that he is doomed to live forever lost in the crushing pain and guilt of his actions and their consequences for others. Alternately; true death that does not burden Harry with the guilt of being solely responsible for the death of another human being. - Ron and Hermione cast Death Curses at Voldemort at the same time that Voldemort casts a Death Curse at Harry. Voldemort's Death Curse once again rebounds off of Harry, and a fraction of a second later when Voldemort is in the twighlight between physical-mort and vapor-mort, he is hit by Ron and Hermione's curses, the combined force of which destroys him completely, thoroughly, and forever. - Substitute Neville for Ron and Hermione. - Substitute Dumbledore, or Lupin, or Snape, or Dobby, or a Weasley, or any one of a number of other characters for Ron and Hermione. Alternately; the old switch-a-roo - I have a theory, stated here many times; short version, that when either Voldemort or Harry die, the other becomes vulnerable. By one of many possible happenstances, Harry dies by some definition, during that techincal death, Voldemort becomes vulnerable and is defeated by someone else. After which, Harry is revived from his technical but not true death, and everyone goes to McDonald's to celebrate. This allows the prophecy to be fulfilled; Harry dies (by some definition), his death allows Voldemort to live, but that life is a mortal life which makes him vulnerable. Bada-Bing Bada-Boom; Voldie is killed. ...drop the curtain, turn out the lights, that's a wrap. My point, once again, is that there is death then again there is death; the two not necessarily being the same. There are ways the prophecy can be fulfilled without Harry having to boldly, coldly, bluntly, and with calculated intent directly kill Voldemort. Things I think are very UNlikely to happen- - The whole series is resolved by some bizarre application of time travel. Been there, done that. I could see time travel re-appearing in some secondary way, but JKR has played that card, and to use it as the resolution to the whole series would be a monumental cop-out. - It was all a dream. Harry wakes up from a fantastic dream at age 11 and finds a Hogwarts letter waiting in the mail box. - (this was my idea) Harry the writer; JKR's fictional alter ego. Harry is 18, and 'of age' in the muggle world. The Dursleys have done their part, they took care of orphan Harry, but now that he is of age, it's time for him to get the hell out. Just as Harry pens the last line the manuscript he has been working on all these years, the last line which ends with the world 'scar', Vernon knocks on the door and tells Harry it's time to go. Harry smiles with satisfaction as he pack up his manuscript. Walks away without looking back and heads for London, where he sells his book ('The Adventures of a Boy Wizard') to a publisher, and become a successful author of a seven book series. Ignoring these last few items, the point is that there are way to defeat and utterly destroy Voldemort without Harry having to kill anyone. Just a thought. bboy_mn From alina at distantplace.net Mon Dec 8 05:41:45 2003 From: alina at distantplace.net (arealin) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 05:41:45 -0000 Subject: Stereotyping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86693 > I think JKR must have read my earlier posts, because she sure as hell > as broken out of THAT mold in OoP...now if everyone was not overtly > heterosexual....sigh.... > > Susan in Michigan > I think there are lines even JKR won't cross in her books. After all, even if we don't consider them children's books anymore, they are read by children and even if she thought it ok to introduce homosexuality issues to minors, I doubt her publishers would agree. Besides, I think the plot itself is complicated enough for young readers and hopefully the House Elf issue will make them think, so homosexuality would just confuse them. In any case, I think you're being too picky. The only people who are overtly anything are married couples and teens on hormone highs; or rather teens whose hormone highs we get to see. From serious_schwartz at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 06:05:46 2003 From: serious_schwartz at yahoo.com (serious_schwartz) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 06:05:46 -0000 Subject: Looks aren't everything! (was:Re: Sirius / Severus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86694 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > Laura again: > > Now, about "Severus as victim". I still argue that canon is > inconclusive on this. We learn that James and Snape hated each other > on sight (DD says this in SS/PS). I seem to recall some reference to > James and Snape hexing each other-am I making this up? Anyhow, I > can't believe the nastiness was all one-sided. We have no evidence > at all for who threw the first curse-but we do know who was the > premature expert on the dark arts. > > Snape is not weak, whatever else he may be, and I don't think he was > weak when he came into the school. Where do you get the idea that > Snape needed his Slytherin friends to protect him? The only > reference we have to them is that they almost all turned out to be > DEs. We don't know that they acted as Snape's bodyguards or if Snape > even wanted them to do that. > > I don't know why people expect James and Sirius to have reached > across houses to make friends with Snape when that kind of behavior > is clearly not the norm at Hogwarts. Nor do I see that Snape ever > wanted to be friends with them. We have no idea what, if anything, > they knew about each other or each other's families before they got > to school. For all we know, the hostility started with Snape. > > Laura, who respects Snape enough to believe that he gave as much as > he got Can I add here that the entire pensieve scene is Snape's memory? Harry only sees the scene through Snape's eyes, and as we all know we tend to color our own memories. It is true that Remus and Sirius admit to their personality failings, but it is Snape recalling his view of James and Sirius, the taunts, the hexing, and so forth. JK is cunning enough to let us think the pensieve scene is an objective view, but it is not. We can't judge everyone there based on it. Just my two cents Serious, who is learning to like Snape more than she used to. From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Dec 8 06:07:20 2003 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 06:07:20 -0000 Subject: parenting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86695 > You wrote: > But some don't WANT to ! For some it's simply painful to be away from > their family, even for the shortest of times ! > > The thing is, though, even if you don't want to be away from them, > they're going to want to be away from you. School, friends, summer > camp-all those things take them away from us and into their own > lives. Maybe it's good to get some practice before it's forced on > us. And it's a good thing to spend some time alone with your > partner-kids take up so much time and emotional energy that > sometimes you neglect the other adult you live with. They are! They are going to want to leave me! I can't stand this..nope, can't deal with this news (my kids are 6 and 4) >> > > You wrote: > So maybe you can help me with a problem I'll have to face in a few > years : how do you tell a child about sex offenders that prey on > kids ? > This is something I can help with..have some professional expertise about it... Okay, first, the bad news...most sexual offenders are members of the family or extended family. The vast majority of kids are molested by someone they know...(if you're interested I will point you to the plethora of research now on the web) majority are sexually molested by fathers, step fathers, uncles, male friends of the family. (Profound apologies to those who think this is anti-male, it's the truth. Women do sexually abuse..no question..but the vast majority of perpetrators are male. Most men would die before sexually abusing a kid, this is not about men, it's about perps) Only about 10% of children are sexually abused by strangers. There are relatively few stranger abductions. Most kidnappings are by family members. The good news is that you can give your kids tools of prevention. If they are molested, they can and will recover quickly if they have the right kind of support. Here's the deal. Start at age 2 and keep repeating this stuff. First, teach your children the correct names for body parts (which means you have to get over your own squeamishness). Second, tell your kids that these are your private parts: Penis, testicles, vulvas, inner thighs, buttocks (you can use butt if it's easier), breasts..these are private parts. Parts that are covered by bating suits (usually) are private parts. Third, tell your kids that these are their own private parts and no one can touch them without permission. Sometimes parents have to touch them to wash the private parts, or help put medicine on the private parts, but EVEN PARENTS have to have a GOOD REASON to touch private parts. Doctors and nurses may have to examine/treat private parts, but even doctors and nurses have to have permission from parents to touch private parts. Fourth, what should kids do if someone tries to touch their private parts? Kids should say "no!" (No is our safe, strong and free word) And then they should TELL SOMEONE..... What if that person doesn't believe them? They should keep telling adults until someone does believe them..then you list people they could tell... Okay, here's the deal about stranger danger..for young kids.. Who is a stranger? A stranger is someone you don't know. Can I talk to strangers? If a parent or a teacher is with you, yes...If not, you can say hello, good day, excuse me, or good bye to a stranger....it's okay to be polite...but that's it... Could a stranger be beautiful or handsome? (this is important because kids have the idea that bad guys/women are ugly). YES! What if a stranger said "come with me and I'll give you candy..or come with me I've got some wonderful puppies/kittens in my car..." What do you do? You say "No!" And then you go tell a trusted grown up? Who could you tell? Code words are good. Also, teach kids how to dial 911. Okay, now about kids "playing doctor"..(euphemism from my childhood). That's normal with kids who are generally the same age. Unfortunately, children who have been sexually abused might act out and sexually abuse a younger child. Usually, the four year rule is the key. If the child is four years older than yours, you should worry. If you find that your child has been "playing doctor", be cool. Ask whose idea was it, act pretty uninterested, gather information..was your child upset, frightened, felt that the other kid was making him or her do it? Usually, if the other child is four years older we think of it as abuse...this is not a rigid rule... If you yourself don't know a lot about sexuality, go get a copy of Our Bodies Ourselves for the New Century...it's oh Amazon.com of course... We've already talked to our kids about condoms...latex condoms used properly... My apologies to anyone I've offended, and my apologies to the list owners for being off topic. Susan McGee former director, the Child Abuse and Neglect Council of Jackson County, Michigan former director, the Domestic Violence Project, Inc., Ann Arbor, MI (http://www.dvpsh.org) From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Dec 8 06:13:48 2003 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 06:13:48 -0000 Subject: parenting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86696 > Once the kids start school, they learn stuff very quickly, sad to > say. A lot of parents don't keep a strict eye on their kids' levels > of media exposure in this sex-saturated culture of ours, so kids > think they know all kinds of stuff and are always happy to tell > their friends about it. And spread misinformation and crap..It's my firm opinion that it's our duty as parents to tell our kids the real deal... My six year old son recently told me that Jack (a son of a friend who is 8) had told him that "dick, dick" meant butt. I said to Jesse, how old is Jack? 8 That's not very much older than you, is it? No Jesse, you're a little different than some kids. I know a lot of about this stuff, and I will ALWAYS tell you the truth when you ask me. I know more about this than Jack who is only 8. Jesse accepts this. Okay, Jesse..dick is a vulgar word for your penis. (I quickly revise myself). Jesse, dick is a rude word for your penis. It's not a rude word for your butt. Jesse says "oh". Believe me, son, I know a bunch more than Jack does, and I will ALWAYS tell you the truth... Jesse says "okay, Mommy, got it." Susan From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 06:13:33 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 06:13:33 -0000 Subject: Some discrepancies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86697 -> Sylvia wrote: > > The most likely explanation for Mrs. Black's proprietorial > > references to her ancient house is that it is, indeed, her > > ancient house. > > Carol: > Any canon to support that, or just Mrs. Black's fanaticism > and use of "my" instead of "our" or "my husband's"? My theory of > the moment is still that Mrs. Black was insanely fixated with her > husband's family, which she regarded as hers, but I'm willing to > reconsider if the evidence is strong enough. We don't have any > evidence of cousins marrying cousins with the same last name, only > Black/Malfoy, Black/Lestrange, Black/Tonks (definitely not within > the little circle), and Potter/Evans. > > Karen: I have just been rereading OOP and this struck me. "I haven't looked at this for years. There's Phineas Nigellus... my great-great-grandfather, see? Least popular headmaster Hogwarts ever had...and Araminta Meliflua...cousin of my mother's...tried to force through a Ministry Bill to make Muggle-hunting legal..." Pg 113 of the US version. This says to me that the House of Black comes from Sirius's mom or she did indeed marry into her own family for her cousin to be on the family tree. Carol: Thanks for catching that, Karen. Clearly Mrs. Black *is* talking about her own ancestry (as well as her husband's since it's "the House of Black"), but I don't think we need to have her marrying her own first cousin to explain it. More likely we just have both sides of Sirius's family represented in the tapestry. The fact that Phineas is Sirius's great-great-grandfather but has a different last name does indicate that he's not Sirius's father's father's grandfather, but there are seven other possibilities, four on Sirius's mother's side and three on his father's (everyone has eight great-great-grandfathers). Phineas's presence suggests to me that even though the tapestry was identified as "The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black," it shows the ancestors (and close living relatives) of both Mr. and Mrs. Black, which would explain Mrs. Black's possessiveness and references to "her" family without necessitating her marrying a cousin with the same last name. (Narcissa and Bellatrix would be cousins on the father's side, according to my theory, but still part of Mrs. Black's "family" as pureblood relatives of her husband. Phineas, OTOH, could well be her own ancestor, but is still part of the "House of Black" through his connection to her.) Having not only Phineas but a definite maternal relative, Araminta Melliflua, on the tapestry pretty much destroys my theory that the Potter and Snape families don't show up because they're on Sirius's mother's side of the family, but it's still possible that the Potter or Snape connections were so far back that their presence on the tapestry they would require some diligent searching to discover (assuming that the names had not been removed). It would be rather time-consuming and laborious to search for ancestors from more than a few generations back, simply because the tapestry must have been so huge and so crowded. It's quite possible that Sirius, who was not obsessed with blood relationships, never made the effort to explore it thoroughly and consequently was unaware of his exact relationship to the Potter and Snape families, or he could have chosen not to mention the connection(s) to Harry. Carol, who still thinks that the three families must be related because of the small number of pure blood families From cristina_angelo at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 08:31:28 2003 From: cristina_angelo at yahoo.com (Cristina Angelo) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 09:31:28 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Some discrepancies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000701c3bd65$adc94060$0bf616d5@netcabo.pt> No: HPFGUIDX 86698 Carol said: Having not only Phineas but a definite maternal relative, Araminta Melliflua, on the tapestry pretty much destroys my theory that the Potter and Snape families don't show up because they're on Sirius's mother's side of the family, but it's still possible that the Potter or Snape connections were so far back that their presence on the tapestry they would require some diligent searching to discover (assuming that the names had not been removed). It would be rather time-consuming and laborious to search for ancestors from more than a few generations back, simply because the tapestry must have been so huge and so crowded. It's quite possible that Sirius, who was not obsessed with blood relationships, never made the effort to explore it thoroughly and consequently was unaware of his exact relationship to the Potter and Snape families, or he could have chosen not to mention the connection(s) to Harry. Cristina: I'd think that Sirius would have looked up his friend James' family in the tapestry, before leaving his parents' house for good. That Mrs. Black would allow James himself in her house (for tea...) sounds ... thin... but if she ever did, I definitely see both friends having some fun with it. I think it would have been something Sirius could have very well kept up his sleeve to throw back at Snape - but then he would have to keep a possible connection to Snape's own family out of the conversation (and I'd very much expect Snape to know all about it...). --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.545 / Virus Database: 339 - Release Date: 27/11/03 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From LWalshETAL at aol.com Mon Dec 8 03:06:03 2003 From: LWalshETAL at aol.com (LWalshETAL at aol.com) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 22:06:03 EST Subject: Trelawny's Prophecy was Re: Did James and Lily know about the prophecy? Message-ID: <87.c5657d.2d05449b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86699 Gabrielle wrote: So, imagine telling a couple that their son had to either perish or kill the Dark Lord feared by everyone during that time. Therefore, in my humble opinion, no one knew about the entire prophecy except Dumbledore and of course, Professor Trelawny. LauraW: I don't think even Professor Trelawny knows about the prophecies. When she made the second prophecy to Harry, he tried to ask her about it and she maintained that she had just dozed off and wouldn't say such an outlandish thing. She is probably as clueless about them as anyone. I think Dumbledore keeps her around not because she might tell others about the prophecy, but rather because, who knows, there might actually be a third one forthcoming. And besides, he is kind even to incompetents. Which brings me to another observation: it is almost unkind that Argus Filch is the caretaker of Hogwarts. When most wizards can clean up muddy footprints with a simple wave of a wand, poor Filch has to spend hours scrubbing. Why is it that Dumbledore has him in this job? Wouldn't he be better off as an accountant? LauraW LWalshETAL at aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From LinneaLand at CS.com Mon Dec 8 06:38:15 2003 From: LinneaLand at CS.com (thelinnealand) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 06:38:15 -0000 Subject: Room of Requirement/Mirror of Erised/Chamber Pots In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86700 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: I already suggested that it wasn't the RoR ... because when he returned, he didn't go through the routine outlined by Dobby. Geoff The only time Harry went "through the routine" so far as we know was when he personally had to think up or "create" the DA room. None of the other DA members had to do the routine. Whether he had to do it before each meeting is not stated. Search as I might, I still cannot say if even I believe the Mirror room and the ROR are one in the same. But they might be... and that could explain why such a fantastic mirror was left in an otherwise apparently unsecured location. Linnea From historygrrl1 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 07:04:07 2003 From: historygrrl1 at yahoo.com (historygrrl1) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 07:04:07 -0000 Subject: Speculations for year 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86701 Wolfiesmom98 wrote: > 1. Harry is rescued from the Dursleys early in the summer so he can > spend his Birthday with the Weasleys and have a real birthday party. > > 2. He passed all his owls. Astronomy will be tested again bcause > everyone was distracted. Hermione of course got number 1 scores. > > 3. Krum comes to visit Hermione and she breaks up with him in front > of Ron. > > 4. Neville learns that he actually has more power than he thinks and > just needs confidence. > I think JKR will have to strike a balance between letting Harry recover from his traumas and making him deal with the darkness that surrounds him. If she lets him get too comfortable, we get "Harry Potter and the Pony Party." If she inflicts too much pain on him, we find ourselves reading "Harry Potter and Crippling Depression." IMNSHO, OOTP was more or less Harry Potter and the Descent into Madness - the problems he struggled with at the end of the book were never really resolved, and his troubles were multiplied with Sirius's death and the revelation of the prophecy. He'll never be the same again. He has to start finding his way out of this deep dark place. At this point, it's difficult to even see why he would want to return to Hogwarts (the relative safety of the Durseley household might be a welcome respite, even with the accompanying abuse). So part of the "second war" against Voldemort is going to have to be the struggle to heal a few of Harry's psychic wounds. A birthday party at the Weasleys might go a long way towards helping that process. So would passing all his OWLs. And passing all the OWLs would put him in Snape's Potions class, simultaneously reducing and preserving a certain level of angst. But I don't feel like we can have both a high-pass in Potions and a really good birthday. I think it could make Harry too miserable. Unless the birthday party is a flop, which could reinforce the pain of Harry's losses (but could also make the pain too much.) My guesses: 1) Harry continues his study of Potions in some way, either with the help of Hermione and/or MacGonagall, or with Snape's NEWT-level class. 2) Harry fails to write to the Order for three consecutive days on purpose (or maybe because he's too miserable to do anything and forgets), forcing them to rescue him. He goes somewhere he hasn't previously seen. 3) We learn more about Lupin. 4) We learn a lot more about Neville, as Harry (and maybe Ron and Hermione) look for ways to pin the prophecy to him, rather than Harry. 5) Neville gets more powerful. 6) Krum reappears and we find that Hermione has already cut off the romance. -historygrrl From LinneaLand at CS.com Mon Dec 8 08:33:16 2003 From: LinneaLand at CS.com (thelinnealand) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 08:33:16 -0000 Subject: Arthurs Wound Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86702 The snake at the MoM gave AW a wound that was so large they were trying stitches to help it close. Not the usual snakebite. This sounds to me more like the Basilisk (huge fangs) wound that Harry got in CS rather than something a snake like Nagini (sp) might make. That Arthur didn't end up petrified might be just luck. I am bugged about this whole scene largely because Dumbledore didn't just ask Fawkes to go to Arthur and save him as he did Harry in CS. One Pheonix tear and Arthur would be back on his feet again, problem solved and no one the wiser. Linnea From caroline at illustratorene.no Mon Dec 8 10:13:01 2003 From: caroline at illustratorene.no (linocow2000) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 10:13:01 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall Road and the Elixir of Life ( was The Diary (just where did V get it) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86703 bboy_mn: < In any event, both UK and US books seem to indicate that the > > name on the back and reference to Vauxhall Rd represent the store > and not the publisher.> > now me: I've been following this thread with interested, especially as, like Geoff, I am familiar with this area of London. I earlier suggested a possible reference by JK to the HQ of Random House, but remembered subsequently that this is on Vauxhall BRIDGE Road, rather than Vauxhall Road. I was then prompted to search for "Vauxhall Road" on Google and straight away found... http://www.victorianweb.org/art/illustration/phiz/49.html "The Ruined house in the Vauxhall Road ", an illustration by Phiz from 1844 [picture of house looking rather like one would imagine Godric's Hollow after the Harry-Voldy confrontation] it is an illustration for, wait for it: William Harrison Ainsworth's Auriol or The Elixir of Life (London: George Routledge and Sons, n. d.), !!!!!! [Phiz was a prominent Victorian illustrator, mainly known today for his illustrations for Dickens] According to Victorian web - http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/ainsworth/bio.html - Ainsworth was "king of the historical potboiler". (Interestingly, his many novels include "Rookwood"). Have no time to research this further now, as am meant to be working, thought would post this as seems indeed to lend weight to theories about the significance of Vauxhall Road... Linocow From derek at rhinobunny.com Mon Dec 8 10:36:40 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 02:36:40 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hog's Head Barman In-Reply-To: <00e101c3bd39$9a659540$4e9dcdd1@RVotaw> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031208023525.024bfec0@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86704 >Richelle: >As has already been mentioned, a lot of people think it's Aberforth, >Dumbledore's brother. If he vaguely resembled Dumbledore, that would make >him look familiar to Harry. But also, there was a faint smell of goats in >the Hog's Head. And Aberforth was once accused of using inappropriate >charms on a goat. Coincidence? Or hint? I personally think it's a hint, >as I am a firm believer in Barman Aberforth. Derek: It's amusing to note that "Aberforth Dumbledore" is an anagram for "the bar-room befuddler." :) - Derek From Nimbus1108 at aol.com Mon Dec 8 10:36:32 2003 From: Nimbus1108 at aol.com (nimbus1108) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 10:36:32 -0000 Subject: did voldemort mean for the DE to be captured Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86705 Hi I'm a first time poster and here are my 2 knuts. I think that the DEs did not try to kill the kids for one simple reason. Dead kids are hard so cover up and LV and co. were still trying to keep Voldie's return on the quiet. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Dec 8 11:48:15 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 11:48:15 -0000 Subject: Stereotyping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86706 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "susanmcgee48176" wrote: > > > > As an aside, I like his dwarves - staunch, brave, outspoken, > violent, > > just like a good prop-forward, but his elves make me cringe. Such > > compassion and goodness needs to be severely punished IMO. > > > Okay, so masculine stereotypes are cool, but feminine stereotypes are > verboten? Is that what you're saying? > Kneasy: Ah! I thought this thread had faded - thank you Susan, for allowing me an opportunity to resurrect my 'old curmudgeon' persona. Just get the small intro out of the way and then onto the meat. Elves, now. Are they a feminine sterotype in LotR? Don't think so. What they are is a 'perfection' sterotype, a complete turn-around from the traditional view of elves (considered to be the cause of birth defects in humans and diseases of cattle). JRRT endows them with most of the attributes that humanity aspires to. Is that a feminine sterotype? If so I fear that many of my previous social encounters were with some heavily disguised malefic aliens. Susan: > And it's obvious that Hermione, the character who JKR identifies with > most closely is on a path to free those slaves. OoP is pretty clear > about that. Kneasy: Not to me. I think Hermione is being set up to be wrong but in the 'right' way, if you get my meaning. So that her friends can say "She meant well but didn't understand the true situation" That way JKR covers both pitfalls - being seen to appear to condone slavery and avoiding trite and out-dated social messages. Who doesn't condemn slavery? Anyone in the civilised world? No, it's an issue ruled as unacceptable long since, but it could be used as misdirection in a plot twist. Nothing is so much fun as using a reader knee-jerk reaction as a red herring. JKR is a fan of 'who-dunnits'; misdirection should be expected. Susan: > Oh no, you're not a freak. Lots of us refuse to be told what to > think....for example, as a radical feminist, I don't object to Molly > at all..in fact I love her and Arthur....great relationship, great > nurturing, great family, lots of warm, fuzzy, wonderful stuff.. > I've been a stay at home mom myself for a while, due to employment > problems, debilitating illness of partner, major illness of partner's > mother, and my own mother's death...and it's incredibly hard work. Kneasy: Yeah, I know. I had 5 years of it myself, though not as mom, but as a carer for an invalid. Susan: > Molly's terrific. Real live feminists, you know the ones that are not > vilified and barbecued and lied about by the media, are very > supportive of women who work inside the home. Remember, we're the > ones who coined the phrase "work outside the home" to be respectful > of mothers and household managers.... > > Anyway...my objection to JKR's portrayal of women was that up unti > the OoP all the women were defined by their relationships to > men..with one exception..Hermione..and one might argue...... > Kneasy: Well, we can agree about Molly at least. It is worth pointing out, though, that the tale is told from the viewpoint of an adolescent *boy*. Gender politics and female role models are likely to interest him about as much as saving for a pension fund. And what female role models were introduced in OoP? Bella who is an out and out nutter who needs to be put down asap, Luna, a re-incarnation of 60s hippiedom and who has bats in the belfry, Dolores, a sadistic control freak, Tonks, probably the next victim (that clumsiness will be the death of her), Mrs Black, a true blood fascist. The Womens Movement must have moved on since the last time I looked. Sounds much more interesting than it used to be. No, my objection was the expectation that writers should write to a menu, a set of characters to suit fashionable political causes. To my mind authors who actively promote such ideas are heading for trouble - there's no faster way to become old-hat, boring and dated. All authors try to get across messages of what they consider to be unacceptable views, but IMO it's better if they sketch with a light brush - even within a 'cause' there are splits and schisms and differences of emphasis. If a writer's not careful you could find that they become labelled as 'political' and in a short time their only supporters are members of a small collective living on nuts and berries just outside Paris. Interestingly enough, I suspect that the most fascinating and engaging literary inventions tend to be those that do not toe the party line. Snape, for example. I can just imagine his lip curl if you suggested that he needed a 'strong' female understudy. Sterotyping goes much further that just the sexual variety, of course. Many posters have taken a stereotypical view of how the books should end. These views vary according to taste. I've railed often over the past few weeks against the rosy-spectacled tendency - those that want (believe) that all will end in sweetness and light; no nasty events; no ambiguity of motives or morals and particularly no crunch point where Harry eventually slaughters the Voldy!Monster. Can't see it myself. They've forgotten something - JKR is a killer. If she can kill innocents like Cedric and Frank Bryce (for no obvious plot necessity), why not a few more? Why not a lot more? I make no bones about the fact that my stereotype is at the other end of the spectrum - the more gore the better. Retribution pays for past sins. Accounts should be balanced. Vengence is sweet (and cathartic). Some fear that Harry will be 'tainted'. Have they forgotten that he already is? He is part Voldy. Some (how many I wonder?) of Voldy's attributes were transferred to him at Godrics Hollow. "He transferred some of his powers to you," says DD. Pity he didn't specify which ones. But the nastier they are, the happier I shall be. We know about the Parceltongue. I suspect that his recourse to Crucio! could hint at another. (Why Crucio!? Why not Imperio! Choosing the infliction of pain over an attempt at control is suggestive IMO. ) Susan: > I think JKR must have read my earlier posts, because she sure as hell > as broken out of THAT mold in OoP...now if everyone was not overtly > heterosexual....sigh.... > Kneasy: You're at it again! Mind you, it should be possible to lift it out of the mundane. How about a psychotic gay murderer who hates women because one of them stole his only true love? Peter, for example? I could go along with that. > Susan: > P.S. Happy to send you a few beers..what's your favorite? > Kneasy: Just send money. US beers don't appeal much. Don't suppose you've heard of Timothy White's bitter, have you? From mpjdekker at hotmail.com Mon Dec 8 12:11:49 2003 From: mpjdekker at hotmail.com (mightymaus75) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 12:11:49 -0000 Subject: Harry's scar and Voldemort (Was: A strange silver instrument) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86707 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > > Here's what JKR herself has to say to a question from a child reader > who thinks that "Snap" caused the pain (SB is the person reading the > questions): > > SB: Why in the first book does Harry's lightening scar flash, or > when he gets his lightening scar flash, when Snap looks at him? > > JKR: Snape. > > SB: Snape. > > JKR:. . . If anyone hasn't finished reading book one, would they > please put their fingers really tightly in their ears now, if they > don't want the ending ruined? Really tightly now, cause this is a > question about the ending. Um... Quirrell had the back of his head > to Harry at the point when Harry looked at Snape, so someone else > was looking at Harry through a certain turban. See what I mean? If > you've read it, you understand, and if you haven't read it, you're > going what? But that's okay. > > (Carol again): > In other words, the scar hurt because Voldemort was looking at Harry > through Quirrell's turban. > > Carol Which is basically what I said; after reading PS/SS we are meant to think it is Voldemort underneath Quirrell's turban that causes Harry's scar to hurt. Of course JKR saying that this is *in fact* what happened does change things. I find it interesting that JKR specifically mentions that Voldemort was looking at Harry. Dumbledore never mentioned anything about Voldemort having to look at Harry for his scar to hurt: "`D'you ? d'you know why my scar's hurting me?' Dumbledore looked very intently at Harry for a moment, and then said, `I have a theory, no more than that... It is my belief that your scar hurts both when Lord Voldemort is near you, and when he is feeling a particularly strong surge of hatred.'" [Harry and Dumbledore, GoF] "`Harry is as sane as you or I. That scar upon his forehead has not addled his brains. I believe it hurts him when Lord Voldemort is close by, or feeling particularly murderous.'" [Dumbledore, GoF] Being near to Voldemort in itself clearly isn't enough to cause Harry's scar to hurt; as demonstrated by the almost nine months Harry spends in close proximity to Professor Quirrell after the start-of- term feast. If it was Voldemort looking directly at Harry that caused Harry's scar to hurt, does that mean that Voldemort was using Legilimency on Harry? Presumably Voldemort was then also using Legilimency on Harry when he was wrapped up in the bundle of robes during the graveyard scene in GoF and when he arrived in the MoM in OotP. We know that at least in the MoM he was using Legilimency on Harry to determine if Harry was telling the truth about the prophecy. Of course in each of those instances Voldemort wouldn't have had direct eye contact, he was either hidden underneath a turban, wrapped in a bundle of robes, or facing the back of Harry's head; but then Professor Snape said that eye contact is *often* essential to Legilimency, not always. Voldemort presumably is skilled enough at Legilimency that as long as he is close enough in space and time he can read minds trough turbans, robes and the back of peoples heads. Make of this what you will. -Maus From derek at rhinobunny.com Mon Dec 8 12:49:12 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 04:49:12 -0800 Subject: Harry Potter Anagrams (humor) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031208023738.024e84e0@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86708 Noting in another post that "Aberforth Dumbledore" is an anagram for "A bar-room befuddler," here, submitted for your amusement and/or annoyance, are some other anagrams of HP character names that seem at least vaguely applicable... Tom Marvolo Riddle -- I Am Lord Voldemort. (We all know this one!) Aberforth Dumbledore -- A bar-room befuddler. Albus Dumbledore -- A bulbous meddler. Minerva McGonagall -- Calm, moral, avenging. Harry Potter, Boy Who Lived -- Provable, worthy, tidy hero. Hermione Granger -- Grr! Heroine nag me! Ronald Weasley -- Any adores well. Neville Longbottom of Gryffindor -- Forgotten frog nobly loved in film. Potions Master Severus Snape -- Suspense as so rotten vampire? Half-Giant Rubeus Hagrid -- Is huggable, fair, and hurt. Sirius "Padfoot" Black -- Patricidal fuss book. (The third book was all about the fuss over Black's supposed patricide of Harry's father...) Remus "Mooney" Lupin -- Only premium onus. James "Prongs" Potter -- Pop am strong jester! (Bad grammar, good meaning.) Peter "Wormtail" Pettigrew -- Twerp? Or legitimate twerp? (What a choice!) Lily Evans Potter -- It's lovely parent. Alastor "Mad Eye" Moody -- Eye alarm to doomsday. "Do Not Call Me Nymphadora" Tonks -- Looker, and not splotchy madman. Arthur Weasley -- Always truer, he. Molly Weasley -- Me sew loyally. (Jumpers for Ron and Harry every year!) Fred and George Weasley -- Greedy renegades of law. Percival Weasley -- Always vile creep. (I know we don't know whether his name is really "Percival" or not, but this makes such a good anagram! ;) Gilderoy Lockhart -- Gay, thrilled crook. Dolores Umbridge -- Gruesome old bird. Barty Crouch the Death Eater -- Retch about hated treachery. Minister Cornelius Fudge -- Ironfisted, glum, insecure. - Derek From fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com Mon Dec 8 13:03:50 2003 From: fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com (Martha) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 13:03:50 -0000 Subject: Stereotyping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86709 "arealin" said: > I think there are lines even JKR won't cross in her books. After > all, even if we don't consider them children's books anymore, they > are read by children and even if she thought it ok to introduce > homosexuality issues to minors, I doubt her publishers would agree. Martha replies: Without wanting to get into any sort of flame-war, I must make a few points. Where is it written that children shouldn't read about "homosexuality issues" or that publishers are unlikely to allow these issues to be dealt with? Exhibit A: the books of Jacqueline Wilson. She writes for specifically for children ("adult" versions of her books, with with "adult" covers, are not available) and deals frankly with all sorts of issues, including sexuality, living with an alcoholic parent, mental illness, adoption, being in care, adolescence... I could go on. I don't think I've ever heard of an incident of anyone claiming her books were unsuitable for children and young people. To be honest, I think the reason that there are no overtly gay characters in Harry Potter is because nobody's sexuality is dealt with full stop, other than Harry's. OK, there are married couples in the books, but what they get up to is entirely their own business. For all we know, Arthur and Molly's bedroom is a rubber-sheeted bondage dungeon with whips and handcuffs - no, I'm not suggesting it actually is, I'm just saying - we don't know. (Apologies to anyone with slightly squicky mental image now floating around in brain.) ;-) The point is, the only sexuality dealt with at all is Harry's, and even that to a fairly minor extent. We know he kissed Cho, but that's it. That's all we know. He's fifteen and from that we can infer that he may well have certain... urges, shall we say (isn't there something somewhere in Oop - just after the kiss, I believe - along the lines of "whenever he had imagined a scene involving the two of them it had always included a Cho who was enjoying herself"? No prizes for what that may - or may not - refer to) but we don't actually know. OK, and we see other couples kissing, but that's all, and it's usually relevant to the situation. Roger Davies (is that right?) and his girlfriend snogging in the teashop has the purpose of making the situation more embarrassing for Harry (and presumably for Cho, although again, we don't know). I guess the point here is that there is little discussion of characters' sexuality because it's not part of Harry's story - and arguably because it's just not important either way. IMO it's not because "there are lines even JKR won't cross" (not the way I'd put it myself, either), or because Bloomsbury (Scholastic, etc) would be afraid to publish it. It's because it doesn't figure in Harry's life. The poor kid can barely work out that he's supposed to ask someone out at the age of 15, after all. He's working on sorting out his own life and his own sexuality. Other people's sexualities just don't figure. In any case, I sincerely doubt any publisher is going to refuse to publish a Harry Potter book because it makes reference to something like sexuality - this is Harry Potter we're talking about. Hasn't OoP sold something like 2.5 million copies since release in the UK alone? Think about it. ~ Martha, contemplating writing a book called "Harry lives with Sirius and Remus" ;-) From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Dec 8 14:01:38 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 14:01:38 -0000 Subject: There is Death and then again there is death (was: It's A Wonderful Life?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86710 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > bboy_mn: > I have repeatedly said, 'There is death and then again there is death; > the two not necessarily being the same. > Death doesn't necessarily have to be stone cold in-your-grave dead. > Possible way in which Voldemort could cease to exist without physical > death- > JenR: I've been thinking about this possibility, symbolic death rather than physical death, and the idea of transfer of powers keeps coming back to me. We keep seeing evidence of this throughout the books: 1) Inital transfer of power from LV to Harry by the failed AK. 2) Link between Ginny and Diary!Tom that caused him to come to life as she dies. 3) Brother wands and the literal transfer of power as they battle at the graveyard. 4) The merging of LV and Harry in OOTP, the "but in essence divided" bit. We know LV cannot exist in Harry's body as seen at the end of OOTP. If this merging continues, or is some way is activated to a greater degree, then LV and Harry will literally be duelling internally for power as they did externally in the graveyard. We saw LV's possession caused great pain for Harry and vice versa. And Harry did 'kill' Diary!Tom in a symbolic way, if not literally. Very few of us viewed that as murder because he killed an "essence" rather than a person (and saved Ginny along the way). His final battle with LV could be a similar event, only very intense because of the deep connection. This could also explain the "neither can live while the other survives" part of the Prophecy in a very literal way, their connection forged by the scar makes it impossible for either to truly be independent from the other. Thanks for your good post, Steve! Jen Reese From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Dec 8 14:11:48 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 14:11:48 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall Road and the Elixir of Life ( was The Diary (just where did V get it) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86711 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "linocow2000" wrote: (snip) > > William Harrison Ainsworth's Auriol or The Elixir > of Life (London: George Routledge and Sons, n. d.), !!!!!! > According to Victorian web - > http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/ainsworth/bio.html - Ainsworth > was "king > of the historical potboiler". (Interestingly, his many novels > include > "Rookwood"). > > Have no time to research this further now, as am meant to be > working, thought would post this as seems indeed to lend weight to > theories about the significance of Vauxhall Road... > Nice bit of research. I was wondering, where is Voldy hiding now and throughout OoP? Surely not at the Riddle House, particularly after the graveyard scene in GoF. Probably not at the Malfoy shack either, Aurors would have gone through there like a dose of salts following the Ministry debacle. So do we have a new location for parts of book 6? Kneasy From entropymail at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 14:25:05 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 14:25:05 -0000 Subject: THe nature of the Unforgivables(was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bang!You're dead.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86712 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Angel: But this raises an interesting question. In Moody's lesson he talks about using AK, and said he wouldn't get a nosebleed if the whole class did it. If Neville had had the torture of his parents uppermost in his mind and all the hatred at Crouch, could he have killed Moody, at that point, because of it? > Carol: I don't think the identity of the person you're aiming AK at matters--only the anger and hatred of the person casting the spell. the Death Eaters undoubtedly AKd anonymous Muggles and some of the DEs > tried to AK Harry's friends in the MoM without knowing who they were. > Barty Jr. if he had known who he was and what he had done...remember, > Harry couldn't successfully Crucio Bellatrix, who had just killed > Sirius and was gloating about it. The same thing would have happened > to Neville if he had tried to AK Imposter!Moody knowing the full truth. It might be helpful to think of the Crucio or AK curses as similar to producing a patronus. Harry's experience with the patronus has been written about extensively in the books, so it's a good point of reference. Three things are needed to successfully produce a patronus: 1. Power. We know that it usually takes a fairly powerful, full-grown wizard to produce a patronus. Harry, whose powers have been magnified by Voldemort's attempt on his life, has the magical ability to produce it. 2. Good thoughts. Happy memories must be recalled. 3. Practice. A great deal of practice and effort in learning to use the spell are necessary as well. The Crucio and AK spells could be thought of as anti-patronus. The power and practice are necessary elements, but instead of good thoughts, the wizard must produce and direct a great deal of hatred and evil as well. Given that Harry has an abundance of both hatred (at the DE's and Voldemort for the death of his parents and now Sirius) and evil (supposedly as a result of Voldemort's failed AK at him), Crouch!Moody was probably underestimating Harry when he said no one in the class could successfully AK him. With a bit of work, Harry seems to have all of the elements of a wicked AK in him. :: Entropy :: From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 14:25:14 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 14:25:14 -0000 Subject: Pensieve objectivity (was : Looks aren't everything!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86713 "serious_schwartz" wrote: > Can I add here that the entire pensieve scene is Snape's memory? > Harry only sees the scene through Snape's eyes, and as we all know > we tend to color our own memories. It is true that Remus and Sirius > admit to their personality failings, but it is Snape recalling his > view of James and Sirius, the taunts, the hexing, and so forth. JK > is cunning enough to let us think the pensieve scene is an > objective view, but it is not. We can't judge everyone there based > on it. Ah ? Has the list finally reached a conclusion then ? Last time I read about the objectivity of a Pensieve scene, people agreed to disagree : there seemed to be no way to know how objective a memory from a Pensieve was. Personally, considering the degree of precision in MWPP's discussion, I'd say it's very unlikely Snape could have remembered that. He was, after all, very much engulfed in his exam papers. So *I* am of the opinion that a Pensieve scene is perfectly, even *magically*, objective. In fact, I think it's one of the *main* point of storing a memory in a Pensieve : to be able to have an objective look at it. But this is just my opinion, of course. Del From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 14:38:28 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 14:38:28 -0000 Subject: Stereotyping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86714 > Susan: > > Molly's terrific. Real live feminists, you know the ones that are not vilified and barbecued and lied about by the media, are very supportive of women who work inside the home. Remember, we're the ones who coined the phrase "work outside the home" to be respectful of mothers and household managers.... > > > > Anyway...my objection to JKR's portrayal of women was that up until the OoP all the women were defined by their relationships to > > men..with one exception..Hermione..and one might argue...... > > > > Kneasy: > Well, we can agree about Molly at least. > > And what female role models were introduced in OoP? > Bella who is an out and out nutter who needs to be put down asap, > Luna, a re-incarnation of 60s hippiedom and who has bats in the belfry, > Dolores, a sadistic control freak, > Tonks, probably the next victim (that clumsiness will be the death of her), > Mrs Black, a true blood fascist. > > The Womens Movement must have moved on since the last time I looked. Sounds much more interesting than it used to be. Laura: Kneasy, dear, you seem to have misread Susan's post. She didn't say the female characters in OoP were role models; she just said they weren't defined by their relations with men. I might argue with her portrayal of the HP females though. If you value the role of an at-home parent, then to say that that role is defined by its relation to a male partner is inconsistent. It has value in and of itself. And you can be an at home parent if you're a man or part of a same-sex couple too. Once staying at home with kids (or others in need of care) becomes a choice rather than a compulsion, it's no longer a dependent situation but one of mutual agreement. So a feminist view of the Weasleys could be that Molly isn't dependent on Arthur-she and he have agreed that her staying home is a worthwhile investment of her time and her potential earning capacity. Besides, there are lots of working women in the earlier books whose roles weren't defined by their relations to men, unless you see having a male boss as being so defined (like McGonagall). Kneasy: > Interestingly enough, I suspect that the most fascinating and engaging literary inventions tend to be those that do not toe the party line. Snape, for example. I can just imagine his lip curl if you suggested that he needed a 'strong' female understudy. Laura: Quite right. Real humans aren't walking political platforms (the ones that are tend to be pretty lonely and with good reason). Writers with political points to make do it most successfully when the politics are woven into the plot, it seems to me. Austen, Thackeray, Dickens, Eliot come to mind from the 18th and 19th centuries, maybe Nadine Gordimer, Margaret Atwood from our times. Kneasy: > Some fear that Harry will be 'tainted'. Have they forgotten that he already is? He is part Voldy. We know about the Parceltongue. I suspect that his recourse to Crucio! could hint at another. (Why Crucio!? Why not Imperio! Choosing the infliction of pain over an attempt at control is suggestive IMO. ) Laura: I think you might be reading too much into Harry's attempted use of Crucio. The decision to control is a more subtle choice-you have to have an end in mind when you choose that spell. Why would Harry want to control Bella? He just wants to hurt her as much as he possibly can. Although your point stands in that Harry's decision to use any Unforgivable at all could be indicative. No other kid at the MoM that night tried anything so drastic as far as we know. > > Susan: now if everyone was not overtly heterosexual....sigh.... > Kneasy: > You're at it again! > Mind you, it should be possible to lift it out of the mundane. > How about a psychotic gay murderer who hates women because one of > them stole his only true love? Peter, for example? I could go along with that. Laura: Aha-the repressed shipper in Kneasy comes out! Go for it, Kneasy! Let's see now, who could that true love be? Of course-it would have to be James, and Lily grabbed him, which is why Peter was so eager to betray J&L to Voldie. Oh boy-when Snape finds out who was sabotaging the LOLLIPOPS factory, Wormtail is toast...Kneasy, you've made my day! From cewald at niu.edu Mon Dec 8 14:50:01 2003 From: cewald at niu.edu (evershade1) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 14:50:01 -0000 Subject: Thank you/Closure Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86715 I'd like to thank all you for allowing me to post the story of my husband being missing since July 1st. Full details can be found at: http://www.angelfire.com/art2/art-ewald/ . I have found closure as to the whereabouts of my husband. His body was found on Nov. 13th in Clinton County Iowa. He died of a self inflicted gunshot wound. His motorcycle was near by. My husband, suffered from depression. He had been battling it for over three years. He was on medication, but was unfortunately in the 15% of those people who are not helped by medication. Both Art's MD, and I were unaware that the medication was not helping him. I encourage anyone suffering from depression to see their health care provider. 85% "cure" rate from this terrible disease are good odds. I'd also like to say that I continue to give Glory to God, praise His name, and trust in His wisdom and love. Thank you so much to all of you who read of my husband's plight, and took the time to say a prayer. Sincerely, Christine Ewald From kcawte at ntlworld.com Mon Dec 8 22:57:05 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 14:57:05 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Stereotyping References: Message-ID: <019701c3bdde$99e61d10$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 86716 > "arealin" said: > > > I think there are lines even JKR won't cross in her books. After > > all, even if we don't consider them children's books anymore, they > > are read by children and even if she thought it ok to introduce > > homosexuality issues to minors, I doubt her publishers would agree. > K So it would be wrong to have a homosexual character in the books (although since the sexuality of a lot of the characters hasn't been discussed I would point out we don't know there already isn't, in fact it would be entirely possible for there to be *more* homosexual than heterosexual characters), but torture (the Longbottoms), gratuitous murder (Cedric), possession (Ginny) etc etc are fine. Why is it that society tends to see violence as a perfectly acceptable topic for children's literature but sex (and we're not talking about Snape and Dumbledore going at it on one of the tables in the Great Hall, but rather homosexuality or a homosexual relationship being portrayed in a non-overt way similar to Percy/Penelope or Molly/Arthur) is some how 'wrong' or a bad influence? Frankly unless JKR decided to put something like graphic violence of the type you'd get in an 18 film or rampant sex scenes in her book I don't think the publishers would *dare* try and censor her - and if they did I imagine the queue of other publishers trying to get her to sign up with them instead would stretch from her home all the way down to London. While there aren't any characters who have been actively stated to be homosexual it is certainly possible to read the books and see the evidence for at least one homosexual couple (and I'm sure that there are a lot of people who could see more) as I've mentioned before (on the thread about Sirius and Remus - which I gave up on because of the attitude that it was wrong to even consider the idea in a children's book, not because I agreed with that attitude btw but because I just couldn't be bother ed anymore, I'm not going to change the prejudices of people who really believe that the subject has a corrupting influence and frankly I shouldn't be wasting my breath here either). Personally I still think the flashback in the pensieve adds even more evidence to the gay!Sirius idea - I think he has a crush on James, no wonder he's got so many problems by OotP! K From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Dec 8 14:59:54 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 14:59:54 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall Road and the Elixir of Life ( was The Diary (just where did V get it) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86718 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "linocow2000" wrote: bboy_mn: > > < In any event, both UK and US books seem to indicate that the > > > name on the back and reference to Vauxhall Rd represent the store > > and not the publisher.> > > Linocow: > I've been following this thread with interested, especially as, like > Geoff, I am > familiar with this area of London. I earlier suggested a possible > reference by > JK to the HQ of Random House, but remembered subsequently that this > is on > Vauxhall BRIDGE Road, rather than Vauxhall Road. Geoff: This raises a problem. Consulting my worthy and trusted A to Z of London (1995 edition), there is no Vauxhall Road listed. Gardens, Grove, Street and Walk - yes. Gardens are in Croydon, 8 miles away, the others are side streets. The /only/ Road listed is Vauxhall BRIDGE Road. Back to my theory, did Tom go to W.H.Smith's at Victoria after all? Bit of a riddle isn't it? (ouch!) It is possible that Vauxhall Road changed its name; it does happen occasionally. I think that area is the Borough of Lambeth - I wonder if they have an archive section? Side issue, I couldn't get the URLs to work. The first section gets you into the Victorian Web OK but then the links break down. Geoff From vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be Mon Dec 8 15:10:56 2003 From: vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be (Vicky Gwosdz) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 15:10:56 -0000 Subject: Arthurs Wound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86719 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "thelinnealand" wrote: > The snake at the MoM gave AW a wound that was so large they were > trying stitches to help it close. Not the usual snakebite. > This sounds to me more like the Basilisk (huge fangs) wound that Harry > got in CS rather than something a snake like Nagini (sp) might make. > That Arthur didn't end up petrified might be just luck. > > I am bugged about this whole scene largely because Dumbledore didn't > just ask Fawkes to go to Arthur and save him as he did Harry in CS. > One Pheonix tear and Arthur would be back on his feet again, problem > solved and no one the wiser. > > Linnea When Fawkes saved Harry DD said something (and now I'm trying to translate from Dutch) about Harry showing exceptional loyalty to DD. Otherwise Fawkes would not have come to his rescue. So I assume that even though Arthur fights the good fight and is in the Order, he did not show any "exceptional loyalty" toward DD. Vicky From scootingalong at bellsouth.net Mon Dec 8 15:20:59 2003 From: scootingalong at bellsouth.net (Lori) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 10:20:59 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Possible Threat to the HPFGU Family of Lists References: Message-ID: <006c01c3bd9e$e410bb10$6101a8c0@FamilyComputer> No: HPFGUIDX 86720 To whom it may concern: I read the email and just wanted to tell someone. That the threats that are being made is the exact reason that I have not participated in HP for Grownups. Another member made a threat towards me and I have not been in since. It was a rather graphic threat and it also put a virus on my computer, seven of them to be exact. I lost a lot of my files because of this and did contact the moderator of the site to inform them of the threat that was made towards me. I do hope you figure out who is behind this, I deleted the email once I read the part in the email that stated a virus was attached and then ran Norton and discovered that indeed a virus was on my system. I was told my the moderator that handled my complaint not to say anything about what I was sent, (which I found to be insulting) it was like the moderators didn't want me to defend myself. I haven't been back since. I do however receive emails and such from the Grownups group but I don't usually respond to them for fear of receiving another virus or threat. I enjoyed being in the group and participating until this occurred. I don't know why someone would be so wrapped up in a discussion group that they would be willing to take it to this measure. Lori ----- Original Message ----- From: hpfgumoderator To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 7:30 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Possible Threat to the HPFGU Family of Lists Dear Members of the Harry Potter for Grownups Family of Lists, We regret the need to interrupt with a post of this nature. For the past several months, we (the List Administration Team) have been handling the disruption of several of the HP lists by an individual or individuals, and it has gotten to a point which we feel to be harassment. In addition, a threat has been made offlist to at least one member of the current admin team, and we are concerned that harassment of list members may have extended to others beyond admin team members. Until now, we have been handling this within the admin team, and have done our best to avoid burdening the lists with this situation - we felt it was an administrative problem, and so should be dealt with internally. Recently, however, we received a message which made it much more than just a list admin problem. We were contacted via the owners address with a frank threat against the lists, indicating that, unless certain demands are met, an irreversible action will be taken that will damage the HPFGU list community. The action was not specified; however, one of our auxiliary HPFGU lists was recently deleted by Yahoo, and the sender of this e-mail apparently took credit for that action, implying that "Terms of Use violations" were reported. Other owner messages have made reference to "holes" in our security. This threat may be as innocuous as the formation of an alternate list. However, we cannot ignore the possibility that serious harm may be intended to the HPFGU family of lists, and we felt it only fair that you should be alerted. This is your list community too. Some of us are concerned that we are being manipulated into complaining on the public HPFGU lists, or forwarding the emails, so a complaint for a violation of Yahoo's Terms of Use could be made. For that reason, we are not providing any names in this email. As our experience with the auxiliary group showed, Yahoo does not give notice before they delete a group. While it might seem incredible that they would delete a group with nearly 90,000 posts and three-plus years of history without investigating the details of an accusation, we have to be cautious, and beg Yahoo to listen to both sides of the story if a complaint is made. We are doing whatever we can to improve security on the lists. We will do our best to avoid any disruption of services, and we ask your understanding if odd things should happen to the lists. We intend to do whatever we can to prevent any damage to the HPFGU family of lists, including deletion of any other lists, should that be the form this threat takes. However, should any HPFGU list(s) become inaccessible, you can visit The Lexicon at http://www.hp-lexicon.org for status updates and, if necessary, relocation information. Finally, in closing, we wish to apologize. We know the unresponsiveness of the admin team has been a source of frustration to many of you. It has been a source of frustration to us as well. We each have only so many hours to devote to HP, and over the past few months, most of them have been devoted to dealing with this situation. It has taken our time, energy, and enthusiasm away from our proper tasks: the fostering and running of these lists. And until this situation is resolved, some of our time must continue to be devoted to dealing with it. So we ask your continuing patience and understanding, while we do everything we can to protect this family of lists. Sincerely, The HPforGrownups List Administration Team Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From caroline at illustratorene.no Mon Dec 8 15:25:57 2003 From: caroline at illustratorene.no (linocow2000) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 15:25:57 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall Road and the Elixir of Life ( was The Diary (just where did V get In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86721 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" < gbannister10 at a...> wrote: > This raises a problem. Consulting my worthy and trusted A to Z of > London (1995 edition), there is no Vauxhall Road listed. > Side issue, I couldn't get the URLs to work. The first section gets > you into the Victorian Web OK but then the links break down. > > Geoff Now me: Sorry to have snipped terrible pun (!) but recent post got returned for insufficient snipping, so am being v officious. Couldn't find Vauxhall Road in A to Z either, and there was also no reference to it in a "Lost London Streets" website (http://m embers.aol.com/WHall95037/ london.html - hope it works). BUT on the Victorian London Streets A-Z site - http://www.gendocs.demon.co.uk/lon-str.html - there are references to: Vauxhall Road, St Andrew, ST GEORGE HANOVER SQUARE [1862] Vauxhall Road, St Mary the Less, LAMBETH [1862] Vauxhall Road, St Peter, LAMBETH [1862] Vauxhall Road, St Peter, Pimlico, ST GEORGE HANOVER SQUARE [1862] Vauxhall Road, St Stephen, ST GEORGE HANOVER SQUARE [1862] So looks like there were two streets (one nowhere near Vauxhall), but am none the wiser as to when they disappeared... But am inclined to think now that the reference to Vauxhall Road has more to do with the spooky Phiz illustration to "The Elixir of Life" than any actual road. If JK found this image while doing research on witchcraft/the elixir of life, I can imagine the title might have stuck in her mind. Don't know why the URL I gave isn't working - try searching for "Vauxhall Road Phiz" in Google and you should get straight to the image. Linocow From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Dec 8 15:29:23 2003 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 15:29:23 -0000 Subject: Stereotyping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86722 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Martha" wrote: > "arealin" said: > > > I think there are lines even JKR won't cross in her books. After > > all, even if we don't consider them children's books anymore, they > > are read by children and even if she thought it ok to introduce > > homosexuality issues to minors, I doubt her publishers would agree. > > Martha replies: > > Without wanting to get into any sort of flame-war, I must make a few > points. Where is it written that children shouldn't read > about "homosexuality issues" or that publishers are unlikely to allow > these issues to be dealt with? Exhibit A: the books of Jacqueline > Wilson. She writes for specifically for children ("adult" versions of > her books, with with "adult" covers, are not available) and deals > frankly with all sorts of issues, including sexuality, living with an > alcoholic parent, mental illness, adoption, being in care, > adolescence... I could go on. I don't think I've ever heard of an > incident of anyone claiming her books were unsuitable for children > and young people. > > To be honest, I think the reason that there are no overtly gay > characters in Harry Potter is because nobody's sexuality is dealt > with full stop, other than Harry's. OK, there are married couples in > the books, but what they get up to is entirely their own business. > For all we know, Arthur and Molly's bedroom is a rubber-sheeted > bondage dungeon with whips and handcuffs - no, I'm not suggesting it > actually is, I'm just saying - we don't know. (Apologies to anyone > with slightly squicky mental image now floating around in brain.) ;- ) > The point is, the only sexuality dealt with at all is Harry's, and > even that to a fairly minor extent. We know he kissed Cho, but that's > it. That's all we know. He's fifteen and from that we can infer that > he may well have certain... urges, shall we say (isn't there > something somewhere in Oop - just after the kiss, I believe - along > the lines of "whenever he had imagined a scene involving the two of > them it had always included a Cho who was enjoying herself"? No > prizes for what that may - or may not - refer to) but we don't > actually know. OK, and we see other couples kissing, but that's all, > and it's usually relevant to the situation. Roger Davies (is that > right?) and his girlfriend snogging in the teashop has the purpose of > making the situation more embarrassing for Harry (and presumably for > Cho, although again, we don't know). > > I guess the point here is that there is little discussion of > characters' sexuality because it's not part of Harry's story - and > arguably because it's just not important either way. IMO it's not > because "there are lines even JKR won't cross" (not the way I'd put > it myself, either), or because Bloomsbury (Scholastic, etc) would be > afraid to publish it. It's because it doesn't figure in Harry's life. > The poor kid can barely work out that he's supposed to ask someone > out at the age of 15, after all. He's working on sorting out his own > life and his own sexuality. Other people's sexualities just don't > figure. > > In any case, I sincerely doubt any publisher is going to refuse to > publish a Harry Potter book because it makes reference to something > like sexuality - this is Harry Potter we're talking about. Hasn't OoP > sold something like 2.5 million copies since release in the UK alone? > Think about it. > > ~ Martha, contemplating writing a book called "Harry lives with > Sirius and Remus" ;-) Oooohhh..I do love a juicy argument.... What about references to Fleur de la Coeur and Bill Weasley -- isn't he giving her horizontal language lessons? I have NO problem with JKR's lack of explicit sexuality in the books. I believe you are absolutely right. If Harry gets there before the end we may hear/see some of it. But what I was suggesting is that all you see is mixed gender couples, and boy/girl pairings. So you are suggesting that there are lesbians/gay men right in front of Harry but he's not "seeing" them? All he sees are the boyfriends and girlfriends kissing at the pub....the married couples...he's oblivious to any other model...wow, now that's fascinating thought... And I agree, JKR can now do anything she wants..but what she will do will be within the context and integrity of her own story... Susan From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Dec 8 15:28:51 2003 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 15:28:51 -0000 Subject: Stereotyping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86723 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Martha" wrote: > "arealin" said: > > > I think there are lines even JKR won't cross in her books. After > > all, even if we don't consider them children's books anymore, they > > are read by children and even if she thought it ok to introduce > > homosexuality issues to minors, I doubt her publishers would agree. > > Martha replies: > > Without wanting to get into any sort of flame-war, I must make a few > points. Where is it written that children shouldn't read > about "homosexuality issues" or that publishers are unlikely to allow > these issues to be dealt with? Exhibit A: the books of Jacqueline > Wilson. She writes for specifically for children ("adult" versions of > her books, with with "adult" covers, are not available) and deals > frankly with all sorts of issues, including sexuality, living with an > alcoholic parent, mental illness, adoption, being in care, > adolescence... I could go on. I don't think I've ever heard of an > incident of anyone claiming her books were unsuitable for children > and young people. > > To be honest, I think the reason that there are no overtly gay > characters in Harry Potter is because nobody's sexuality is dealt > with full stop, other than Harry's. OK, there are married couples in > the books, but what they get up to is entirely their own business. > For all we know, Arthur and Molly's bedroom is a rubber-sheeted > bondage dungeon with whips and handcuffs - no, I'm not suggesting it > actually is, I'm just saying - we don't know. (Apologies to anyone > with slightly squicky mental image now floating around in brain.) ;- ) > The point is, the only sexuality dealt with at all is Harry's, and > even that to a fairly minor extent. We know he kissed Cho, but that's > it. That's all we know. He's fifteen and from that we can infer that > he may well have certain... urges, shall we say (isn't there > something somewhere in Oop - just after the kiss, I believe - along > the lines of "whenever he had imagined a scene involving the two of > them it had always included a Cho who was enjoying herself"? No > prizes for what that may - or may not - refer to) but we don't > actually know. OK, and we see other couples kissing, but that's all, > and it's usually relevant to the situation. Roger Davies (is that > right?) and his girlfriend snogging in the teashop has the purpose of > making the situation more embarrassing for Harry (and presumably for > Cho, although again, we don't know). > > I guess the point here is that there is little discussion of > characters' sexuality because it's not part of Harry's story - and > arguably because it's just not important either way. IMO it's not > because "there are lines even JKR won't cross" (not the way I'd put > it myself, either), or because Bloomsbury (Scholastic, etc) would be > afraid to publish it. It's because it doesn't figure in Harry's life. > The poor kid can barely work out that he's supposed to ask someone > out at the age of 15, after all. He's working on sorting out his own > life and his own sexuality. Other people's sexualities just don't > figure. > > In any case, I sincerely doubt any publisher is going to refuse to > publish a Harry Potter book because it makes reference to something > like sexuality - this is Harry Potter we're talking about. Hasn't OoP > sold something like 2.5 million copies since release in the UK alone? > Think about it. > > ~ Martha, contemplating writing a book called "Harry lives with > Sirius and Remus" ;-) Oooohhh..I do love a juicy argument.... What about references to Fleur de la Coeur and Bill Weasley -- isn't he giving her horizontal language lessons? I have NO problem with JKR's lack of explicit sexuality in the books. I believe you are absolutely right. If Harry gets there before the end we may hear/see some of it. But what I was suggesting is that all you see is mixed gender couples, and boy/girl pairings. So you are suggesting that there are lesbians/gay men right in front of Harry but he's not "seeing" them? All he sees are the boyfriends and girlfriends kissing at the pub....the married couples...he's oblivious to any other model...wow, now that's fascinating thought... And I agree, JKR can now do anything she wants..but what she will do will be within the context and integrity of her own story... Susan From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Dec 8 15:30:34 2003 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 15:30:34 -0000 Subject: Stereotyping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86724 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Martha" wrote: > "arealin" said: > > > I think there are lines even JKR won't cross in her books. After > > all, even if we don't consider them children's books anymore, they > > are read by children and even if she thought it ok to introduce > > homosexuality issues to minors, I doubt her publishers would agree. > > Martha replies: > > Without wanting to get into any sort of flame-war, I must make a few > points. Where is it written that children shouldn't read > about "homosexuality issues" or that publishers are unlikely to allow > these issues to be dealt with? Exhibit A: the books of Jacqueline > Wilson. She writes for specifically for children ("adult" versions of > her books, with with "adult" covers, are not available) and deals > frankly with all sorts of issues, including sexuality, living with an > alcoholic parent, mental illness, adoption, being in care, > adolescence... I could go on. I don't think I've ever heard of an > incident of anyone claiming her books were unsuitable for children > and young people. > > To be honest, I think the reason that there are no overtly gay > characters in Harry Potter is because nobody's sexuality is dealt > with full stop, other than Harry's. OK, there are married couples in > the books, but what they get up to is entirely their own business. > For all we know, Arthur and Molly's bedroom is a rubber-sheeted > bondage dungeon with whips and handcuffs - no, I'm not suggesting it > actually is, I'm just saying - we don't know. (Apologies to anyone > with slightly squicky mental image now floating around in brain.) ;- ) > The point is, the only sexuality dealt with at all is Harry's, and > even that to a fairly minor extent. We know he kissed Cho, but that's > it. That's all we know. He's fifteen and from that we can infer that > he may well have certain... urges, shall we say (isn't there > something somewhere in Oop - just after the kiss, I believe - along > the lines of "whenever he had imagined a scene involving the two of > them it had always included a Cho who was enjoying herself"? No > prizes for what that may - or may not - refer to) but we don't > actually know. OK, and we see other couples kissing, but that's all, > and it's usually relevant to the situation. Roger Davies (is that > right?) and his girlfriend snogging in the teashop has the purpose of > making the situation more embarrassing for Harry (and presumably for > Cho, although again, we don't know). > > I guess the point here is that there is little discussion of > characters' sexuality because it's not part of Harry's story - and > arguably because it's just not important either way. IMO it's not > because "there are lines even JKR won't cross" (not the way I'd put > it myself, either), or because Bloomsbury (Scholastic, etc) would be > afraid to publish it. It's because it doesn't figure in Harry's life. > The poor kid can barely work out that he's supposed to ask someone > out at the age of 15, after all. He's working on sorting out his own > life and his own sexuality. Other people's sexualities just don't > figure. > > In any case, I sincerely doubt any publisher is going to refuse to > publish a Harry Potter book because it makes reference to something > like sexuality - this is Harry Potter we're talking about. Hasn't OoP > sold something like 2.5 million copies since release in the UK alone? > Think about it. > > ~ Martha, contemplating writing a book called "Harry lives with > Sirius and Remus" ;-) Oooohhh..I do love a juicy argument.... What about references to Fleur de la Coeur and Bill Weasley -- isn't he giving her horizontal language lessons? I have NO problem with JKR's lack of explicit sexuality in the books. I believe you are absolutely right. If Harry gets there before the end we may hear/see some of it. But what I was suggesting is that all you see is mixed gender couples, and boy/girl pairings. So you are suggesting that there are lesbians/gay men right in front of Harry but he's not "seeing" them? All he sees are the boyfriends and girlfriends kissing at the pub....the married couples...he's oblivious to any other model...wow, now that's fascinating thought... And I agree, JKR can now do anything she wants..but what she will do will be within the context and integrity of her own story... Susan From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 16:28:44 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 16:28:44 -0000 Subject: Stereotyping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86725 "susanmcgee48176" wrote: > What about references to Fleur de la Coeur and Bill Weasley -- > isn't he giving her horizontal language lessons? I don't know if it was intended, but the little mistake on Fleur's name is quite right on the subject :-) > So you are suggesting that there are lesbians/gay men right in > front of Harry but he's not "seeing" them? All he sees are the > boyfriends and girlfriends kissing at the pub....the married > couples...he's oblivious to any other model...wow, now that's > fascinating thought... Well... I wasn't the stupidest kid around, but I must admit that this is exactly the kind of things I wouldn't see. I needed people to point straight and put on "meaningful expressions" on their face before anything dawned on me. So I wouldn't be surprised if this was exactly what's happening with Harry. Del From rredordead at aol.com Mon Dec 8 16:27:01 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 16:27:01 -0000 Subject: Stereotyping - Point of Exception In-Reply-To: <003301c3a8f0$fa3dfe10$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86726 K wrote: > I have no problem with JKR writing the ww as being sexist or being a perfect meritocracy (obviously it isn't *cough*Fudge*cough*). I was simply making an observation about what we had seen. > > My complaint was in the lack of well-developed female characters. Mandy here: I just wanted to say job well done K, on dealing with all those howlers. Especially when most of the time the responses to your posts were not read through thoroughly. I thought you stuck to your argument very well and I enjoyed reading your responses. I personally agree with both you and Kneasy. I think we all want to impose our own desires on the story to a certain extent, some more than others. I most certainly agree with K, about the lack of pro- active females in the first 4 books, HOWEVER, and I think I can include K with me when I say, I don't think it is JKR responsibility to have to put them in her stories if she doesn't choose to. And I would never have the audacity to criticize the books, JKR's writing or talent because they don't exist. It is just my opinion, along with K's, that the first 4 HP looks lacked exciting, 3 dimensional female characters. It didn't stop me reading and loving the books, just as I read, loved and related to all the great, boys adventure classics as a kid. I just wished they had more fun girls in them. The first 4 books, as I've said in past posts, were very much boy's adventure books. And, as I've said in the past, there is nothing wrong with that. But no one can deny the introduction of so many delightful 3 dimensional female characters in OotP has taken the story down a different path. As much as I enjoyed the first 4 books, I find I am suddenly able, and want to identify with the story so much more, and I have invested much more time and energy in the story because of the introduction and development of these characters. The books mean so much more to me now, than they did before the publication of OotP dispite that fact that I think OotP was a little disapointing. My favouite is still the brillliant PoA. This is my personal experience of these books. If I have spoken out of turn K, or misunderstood your pov please accept my appologies. Mandy From kcawte at ntlworld.com Tue Dec 9 00:52:23 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 16:52:23 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Stereotyping - Point of Exception References: Message-ID: <002e01c3bdee$c9de48c0$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 86727 > > > Mandy here: > I just wanted to say job well done K, on dealing with all those > howlers. Especially when most of the time the responses to your posts > were not read through thoroughly. I thought you stuck to your > argument very well and I enjoyed reading your responses. > > I personally agree with both you and Kneasy. I think we all want to > impose our own desires on the story to a certain extent, some more > than others. I most certainly agree with K, about the lack of pro- > active females in the first 4 books, HOWEVER, and I think I can > include K with me when I say, I don't think it is JKR responsibility > to have to put them in her stories if she doesn't choose to. > > If I have spoken out of turn K, or misunderstood your pov please > accept my appologies. > K Thanks, Mandy. Yes that's exactly what I was saying. I would have preferred to see more well-developed female characters in the first four books - but JKR isn't obliged to write them. There are a lot of people who would want Dumbledore to live for all 7 books, but we're not saying JKR has to do that because that's what we want (in fact I expect him to be dead before the end of the next book). And I wasn't accusing JKR of being sexist but rather the WW (and I was wrong it isn't, we just hadn't seen the evidence of that). I was also a little surprised as being a woman with a daughter I would have thought JKR might know more about & therefore find it easier to write about the female of the species. Having said that I tend to write my fic about the men of HP - but then since I didn't think that the women were particularly well developed before OoP that may be because I didn't feel I knew the women well enough to use them as protagonists. And to whoever (Kneasy? I think) was wondering about why people would be pleased to see Loopy Luna and evil!Umbridge and psychotic!Bellatrix, well it's just as sexist to only be able to see women as positive role models as to see them only as housewives or whatever. It seems women in the WW can do anything they want - even if what they want to do is go around torturing and killing people they dislike :) K "The Loudest Noise Comes From The Electric Minerva." From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 16:58:56 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 16:58:56 -0000 Subject: Stereotyping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86728 Martha said: To be honest, I think the reason that there are no overtly gay characters in Harry Potter is because nobody's sexuality is dealt with full stop, other than Harry's. OK, there are married couples in the books, but what they get up to is entirely their own business. For all we know, Arthur and Molly's bedroom is a rubber-sheeted bondage dungeon with whips and handcuffs - no, I'm not suggesting it actually is, I'm just saying - we don't know. (Apologies to anyone with slightly squicky mental image now floating around in brain.) ;- > > I guess the point here is that there is little discussion of > > characters' sexuality because it's not part of Harry's story - and arguably because it's just not important either way. > The poor kid can barely work out that he's supposed to ask someone > > out at the age of 15, after all. He's working on sorting out his > own life and his own sexuality. Other people's sexualities just don't figure. In another post, Katherine Cawte said: Why is it that society tends to see violence as a perfectly acceptable topic for children's literature but sex (and we're not talking about Snape and Dumbledore going at it on one of the tables in the Great Hall, but rather homosexuality or a homosexual relationship being portrayed in a non-overt way similar toPercy/Penelope or Molly/Arthur) is some how 'wrong' or a bad influence? And Susan said: But what I was suggesting is that all you see is mixed gender > couples, and boy/girl pairings. > > So you [Martha]are suggesting that there are lesbians/gay men right in front of Harry but he's not "seeing" them? All he sees are the boyfriends and girlfriends kissing at the pub....the married couples...he's oblivious to any other model...wow, now that's a fascinating thought... Laura responds: My, aren't we a lively bunch this morning! Molly and Arthur into a major b/d scene, Snape and DD giving, shall we say, dualling (sorry, couldn't resist) lessons in the Great Hall...have a debauched weekend, did we all? Gee, Kneasy, can Molly be a dominatrix as part of a mutually satisfying sex life with her husband and still be the model for the English mum? Now, about this gay character stuff...If these books had been written 40 years ago, everyone would have been white and male, in all likelihood. The culture was not racially or sexually inclusive then; in fact, the discussions of the imbalances were just getting started. We are now with homosexuality where we were with race and gender a generation or so ago. JKR has clearly made an effort to create a mixed-gender, multicultural student body which reflects the reality of the world we Westerners live in. Because the transition to a completely diverse society hasn't been completed yet, we as readers notice what she's done. But because most of us take for granted the desirability of a diverse society, we don't think it's peculiar or politically loaded. If she had out gay characters, though, that would not read the same way as the gender or race inclusiveness she writes in, because we (that is, the culture in general) still haven't come to the point where being gay is considered a subset of normal. It would be jarring, I think, and cause readers to devote too much attention to the gay characters because of their gayness. Added to that problem is that these books focus on an adolescent. Not having grown up gay, I can't say for sure, but from what I understand from my gay friends and relatives, awareness of one's gayness is an issue on top of the general sexuality stuff all kids go through. In other words, everyone has hormones and feelings but if you're straight you are part of the common experience and you don't have to figure out what your sexuality means as part of your culture. (I'm saying this clumsily-I hope I'm getting my point across.) You just know that you are a sexual being. But if you're gay you have a whole other bunch of stuff to think about in addition to the hormones and feelings, which after all work the same way regardless of who switches them on. So just as Harry falls into "the norm" in other ways-white, male, not physically, mentally or emotionally disabled, etc.-he also must be straight and see the world from that perspective. If that weren't the case, the story would be imbalanced. We'd filter his experiences through his differentness, whatever that would be. That's not the story JKR wants to tell. In another 20 years or so, I hope we'll be with sexuality at the same place we are today with race and gender. Then we can expect gay characters to appear as part of the normal world. Today, though, we're still working on it. A quick observation on the Remus/Sirius ship: it always strikes me when I read the Pensieve II scene that JKR has a girl in the exam room gazing with interest at Sirius. And what's Sirius's reaction? He doesn't even notice. He's busy checking out his homies. Make of that what you will. Laura, who can't wait to order Martha's "Harry Lives with Remus and Sirius" book From steve at hp-lexicon.org Mon Dec 8 17:07:29 2003 From: steve at hp-lexicon.org (hp_lexicon) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 17:07:29 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall Road and the Elixir of Life ( was The Diary (just where did V get In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86729 In re: Vauxhall Road You might want to take a look at Dominik's recent research into the locations of Little Whinging (he has it convincingly identified to within a couple of miles) and, more to the point, a reference to another Vauxhall Road which brings up some interesting coincidences... The essay in question is located here: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essay-streets.html If you want to go through all of his remarkable maps and descriptions, start here: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/privet_drive.html Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon From rredordead at aol.com Mon Dec 8 17:07:54 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 17:07:54 -0000 Subject: Sexual Temptaion was: Stereotyping In-Reply-To: <019701c3bdde$99e61d10$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86730 K arote: it is certainly possible to read the books and see the evidence > for at least one homosexual couple Sirius and Remus Personally I still think the flashback in the pensieve adds even more evidence to the gay!Sirius idea - I think he has a crush on James, no wonder he's got so many problems by OotP! Mandy here, There is plenty of sexuality, heterosexual and homosexual in the story if you look for it. Sirius was definitly in love with James, Remus is in love with Sirius, Peter was in love with James and Sirius, and James loved Lily. Unrequited love is so powerful. No wonder they were so messed up! ;-) It is a shame that we can accept violence in the story more readily than overt sexuality, but we do have the question of an age limit. It's perverted to think of it, but it is some how acceptable for a underage boy to experience torture and death but not sex!! Ah well, I think it will all change in the next two books. Remember the age of consent in Britain is 16, not 18 as it is in the US. So I'm expecting some *action* to be taking place soon. Of course by action I don't mean sex, this is a childeren's book remember but a little bit of seduction......? Kneasy brought up the point of the lack of Temptation in the HP saga and I agree with him. Did any one else notice how Harry was inexplicibly drawn to pictures of Bellatrix whenever he saw one? I though it was interesting. Now she is on his s**t list because of the incident with Sirius, but why introduce such a powerfully sexual woman (Am I projecting here? Is it only me who sees her as overtly sexual? I know it's not canon but there is something about Bellatrix...) and not use her. Can we expect to see the sexual seduction of Harry by Bellatrix? I would love to see him stuggle with that one: "What should I do? AK her now....or kiss her first?" If not Bellatrix, what about the new DADA teacher? I've been expecting the arrival of a young, beautiful female teacher for the last 2 books. The kind of teacher all the boys fall in love with and fantasize about. Kind of like the stereotype of the sexy French Language mistress. After all the girls had Lockheart in CoS and we all know boys are a couple of years behind the girls in the whole sex thing anyway, so it's my desire to see a sexy female professor, secretly working for LV who's sent to Hogwarts with the goal of seducing the kids (boys and girls) over to the dark side and become DE's. All right that's enough of that. Mandy. From meriaugust at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 17:39:23 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 17:39:23 -0000 Subject: Arthurs Wound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86731 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Vicky Gwosdz" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "thelinnealand" > wrote: > > The snake at the MoM gave AW a wound that was so large they were > > trying stitches to help it close. Not the usual snakebite. > > This sounds to me more like the Basilisk (huge fangs) wound that > Harry > > got in CS rather than something a snake like Nagini (sp) might make. > > That Arthur didn't end up petrified might be just luck. > > > > I am bugged about this whole scene largely because Dumbledore didn't > > just ask Fawkes to go to Arthur and save him as he did Harry in CS. > > One Pheonix tear and Arthur would be back on his feet again, problem > > solved and no one the wiser. > > > > Linnea > > When Fawkes saved Harry DD said something (and now I'm trying to > translate from Dutch) about Harry showing exceptional loyalty to DD. > Otherwise Fawkes would not have come to his rescue. > > So I assume that even though Arthur fights the good fight and is in > the Order, he did not show any "exceptional loyalty" toward DD. > > Vicky Also it seems to me that JKR makes a big deal of pointing out that magic is not a cure all for every ailment, magically induced or otherwise, After all, Harry and several other characters still wear glasses and sport scars, and no one could just wave a wand and give Frank and Alice Longbottom back their minds (or Lily and James Potter their lives) could they? And, as to why Fawkes didn't swoop in to rescue Arthur (aside from the loyalty thing, which is a good point) a rather large and brightly colored phoenix known to belong to Dumbledore would be pretty hard to hide or explain away, and I am sure that Fudge would have seen that as a sign of Dumbledore's treachery. Meri From meriaugust at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 17:49:58 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 17:49:58 -0000 Subject: Speculations for year 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86732 There seems to be a lot of talk about Harry being massively depressed in Book 6. Frankly I was surprised that he was so low at the begining of OotP. It seems to me that Harry has a slightly clearer future ahead of him now, especially since everyone now accepts that LV is back, and that some of the high profile DE's have been captured. The war has begun and Harry's mission is slightly clearer (kill LV or die). I personally think that now that Harry knows pretty much everything, and now that he knows how many people really support and and believe in him, that he will be in a slightly better place at the start of Book 6. He is probably still mourning Sirius and is slightly despondent over the prophecy situation, but he knows what he's gotta do now, and a plan of action makes anything easier to deal with. Meri From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 17:56:41 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 17:56:41 -0000 Subject: James' pedigree (Was:Re: Some discrepancies) In-Reply-To: <000701c3bd65$adc94060$0bf616d5@netcabo.pt> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86733 > Carol said: > > Having not only Phineas but a definite maternal relative, Araminta > Melliflua, on the tapestry pretty much destroys my theory that the > Potter and Snape families don't show up because they're on Sirius's > mother's side of the family, but it's still possible that the Potter > or Snape connections were so far back that their presence on the > tapestry they would require some diligent searching to discover > (assuming that the names had not been removed). > > Cristina: > I'd think that Sirius would have looked up his friend James' family in > the tapestry, before leaving his parents' house for good. Annemehr: Cristina has a good point. It doesn't seem possible that the name "Potter" could have been on the tapestry without Sirius knowing it. I would go even further and say that I seriously doubt it could have been there without Sirius pointing it out to Harry. I would think even a scorch-mark that *used* to be a Potter would have been pointed out if Sirius had ever known what it was. I think it's safe to say that Sirius never knew the name "Potter" to be on the tapestry. Can we take a step back for a moment? I am wondering if we haven't been making an unsupported assumption to think that James was pure-blooded. I am defining "pure-blood" as Mrs. Black would: a wizard who could trace his ancestry through many generations with not a trace of muggle blood anywhere. "Full-blooded" is a term I would use, and have seen used on this list, to describe someone of predominantly wizard blood. Perhaps someone who is not more than one-sixteenth, or even one eighth, muggle would qualify. It seems to me there would be a lot of witches and wizards like this in the WW, which would be why the pure-bloods see themselves as so elite. >From the way that Lily is so often described as "muggle-born" or "mudblood," and Harry and Voldemort are described as "half-blood," and yet James' wizard blood is never questioned, it seems clear that James was at least a full-blooded wizard. What I'm not sure of is whether that implies he had the absolute purity of blood that would have qualified him for appearing on the tapestry. I think we have to allow for the possibility of a muggle or half-blood or two in the Potter family tree. They'd have to be far enough back not to engender notice by Voldemort and his ilk (say, a half-blood great-grandparent somewhere), but that would still be quite enough to keep the Potters off a fanatic's tapestry, or blasted off before Sirius ever knew who they were. The Potter name itself could have come from the muggle world, but it could just as easily been from a long line of "blood-traitors" like the Weasleys. How might this be important? I have no real theories for that; I'm not sure whether or not, for the story, James needs to be the first in his family to marry into muggle bloodlines. I'd just hate to see us limiting our speculations to "James the Pure-Blood" unnecessarily. Does anyone know of any canon or interview statement that relates to this? Is James' pure-bloodedness just a myth? Annemehr From jbenne27 at tampabay.rr.com Mon Dec 8 16:04:18 2003 From: jbenne27 at tampabay.rr.com (jbenne27 at tampabay.rr.com) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 11:04:18 -0500 Subject: What would I like to see in Book 6 Message-ID: <003601c3bda4$efb52c20$4820a418@jamesz9ibq8rxr> No: HPFGUIDX 86734 I saw an e-mail like this one the other day and started thinking about what would I like to see in Book 6, so here goes. 1. I would like to see Dumbledore take Harry under his wing more. By this I mean explain the wizard world to him; he will be starting his 6 year and much to my surprise no one has ever done this. He is lacking in so many ways it's like asking our kids to do their home work with out their books. (They would be very handicapped) But yet everyone thinks Harry should be able to do these great things without any back ground. Harry needs a mentor - and why not the best. 2. Next, let's get him out of the Dursleys. He can go live with the Weasleys and be protected by the Order there and not be mistreated!! Maybe have a happy summer for a change. 3. Lets start tying up some loose ends so that the last book isn't going to be nothing but that. 4. I would like to see Neville Longbottom find his place in the world and I think there might even be a chance that he might be the one to do He Who Must Not Be Named in. 5. I think Harry needs to grow up and learn to control his anger but again this could be included under number one. 6. GIRLS! He is old enough now to be able to talk to girls without turning red and forgetting to say anything I would love it if he grew up in Book 6. 7. I would also love it if Harry and Snape came to an understanding they don't have to love each other but they could help each other out a lot. And maybe out of that Snape could be seen in the same light to everyone that Dumbledore sees him. Well that's all for now, I'll add more to my wish list for book 6 as I think of them. James [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dcgrasso1 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 15:53:37 2003 From: dcgrasso1 at yahoo.com (Dori Grasso) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 07:53:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Trelawny's Prophecy was Re: Did James and Lily know about the prophecy? In-Reply-To: <1070897383.16758.23721.m17@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20031208155337.31538.qmail@web14710.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86735 > Gabrielle wrote: > > So, imagine telling a couple that their son had to either perish or kill the > Dark Lord feared by everyone during that time. Therefore, in my > humble opinion, no one knew about the entire prophecy except > Dumbledore and of course, Professor Trelawny. LauraW: > I don't think even Professor Trelawny knows about the > prophecies. > I think Dumbledore keeps her around not because she might > tell others about the prophecy, but rather because, who > knows, there might actually be a third one forthcoming. > And besides, he is kind even to incompetents. I thought perhaps Dumbledore kept her around to protect her. I agree, he is a kind person, but he clearly regards her as an almost complete fraud, other than the 2 predictions she's come up with so far. I speculate that he was worried that a DE or LV might torture her to try to get her to reveal what the prophecy was. Dori __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Dec 8 19:43:28 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 19:43:28 -0000 Subject: Stereotyping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86736 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > > Laura: > > Kneasy, dear, you seem to have misread Susan's post. She didn't say > the female characters in OoP were role models; she just said they > weren't defined by their relations with men. > Kneasy: Not really. Try reading between the lines of my response for a truly outrageous stance. You know I enjoy being provocative so why did you think I'd miss out on this one? But one must not be brutal and unfeeling, must one? (And if challenged, it'll be "Where did I say that?") > Laura: > Quite right. Real humans aren't walking political platforms (the > ones that are tend to be pretty lonely and with good reason). > Writers with political points to make do it most successfully when > the politics are woven into the plot, it seems to me. Austen, > Thackeray, Dickens, Eliot come to mind from the 18th and 19th > centuries, maybe Nadine Gordimer, Margaret Atwood from our times. > > Kneasy: Yes, some of those did successfully weave contemporary politics into the plot, though the plot, not the politics was paramount as you suggest. (I won't agree about Atwood, though. When she's interviewed the political message seems to take priority. She's sending messages, but the messages are those the literary establishment adhere to, so her knuckles don't get rapped .) But I hope that JKR sticks to the agenda she's revealed so far. Just enough to make you wonder, not so much that it irritates. > > Laura: > I think you might be reading too much into Harry's attempted use of > Crucio. The decision to control is a more subtle choice-you have to > have an end in mind when you choose that spell. Why would Harry > want to control Bella? He just wants to hurt her as much as he > possibly can. > > Although your point stands in that Harry's decision to use any > Unforgivable at all could be indicative. No other kid at the MoM > that night tried anything so drastic as far as we know. > Kneasy: Hmm. I'm starting to re-assess our Harry. I think he's being set up for the 'Temptation' I speculated about in a previous post. He shouldn't know how to perform a Crucio! Like all wand magic (as opposed to the auto-defensive magic) it has to be *taught*. It needs to be practised, it needs power. Harry might be developing the last, but where did the others come from? I suspect Voldy transferance and hopefully there is more to come. Have to try and come up with more nasties Voldy might have planted in his mind. > > Kneasy: > > How about a psychotic gay murderer who hates women because one of > > them stole his only true love? Peter, for example? I could go > > along with that. > > Laura: > Aha-the repressed shipper in Kneasy comes out! Go for it, Kneasy! > Let's see now, who could that true love be? Of course-it would have > to be James, and Lily grabbed him, which is why Peter was so eager > to betray J&L to Voldie. Oh boy-when Snape finds out who was > sabotaging the LOLLIPOPS factory, Wormtail is toast...Kneasy, you've > made my day! Kneasy: Thank you. As a non-SHIPper I feel quite proud of this one. It's got everything, hetero sex, gay sex, betrayal, loss, murder, revenge and retribution (coming right up). Just what a fantasy adventure for teenagers needs. There is also the possibility that Sirius was jealous. Oh, my! I can spin this one for weeks! Now how can I fit Lupin into this? From honeycakehorse03 at yahoo.de Mon Dec 8 19:42:17 2003 From: honeycakehorse03 at yahoo.de (Sabrina) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 20:42:17 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Arthurs Wound References: Message-ID: <001601c3bdc3$f8d8b550$89e6fea9@sabrinazimmer> No: HPFGUIDX 86738 ----- Original Message ----- From: meriaugust To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 6:39 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Arthurs Wound --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Vicky Gwosdz" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "thelinnealand" > wrote: > > The snake at the MoM gave AW a wound that was so large they were > > trying stitches to help it close. Not the usual snakebite. > > This sounds to me more like the Basilisk (huge fangs) wound that > Harry > > got in CS rather than something a snake like Nagini (sp) might make. > > That Arthur didn't end up petrified might be just luck. > > > > I am bugged about this whole scene largely because Dumbledore didn't > > just ask Fawkes to go to Arthur and save him as he did Harry in CS. > > One Pheonix tear and Arthur would be back on his feet again, problem > > solved and no one the wiser. > > > > Linnea > > When Fawkes saved Harry DD said something (and now I'm trying to > translate from Dutch) about Harry showing exceptional loyalty to DD. > Otherwise Fawkes would not have come to his rescue. > > So I assume that even though Arthur fights the good fight and is in > the Order, he did not show any "exceptional loyalty" toward DD. > > Vicky Also it seems to me that JKR makes a big deal of pointing out that magic is not a cure all for every ailment, magically induced or otherwise, After all, Harry and several other characters still wear glasses and sport scars, and no one could just wave a wand and give Frank and Alice Longbottom back their minds (or Lily and James Potter their lives) could they? And, as to why Fawkes didn't swoop in to rescue Arthur (aside from the loyalty thing, which is a good point) a rather large and brightly colored phoenix known to belong to Dumbledore would be pretty hard to hide or explain away, and I am sure that Fudge would have seen that as a sign of Dumbledore's treachery. Meri **************** I also think, please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't DD say something to Harry about how he can't *force* Fawkes to shed tears? At the end of GoF it is Fawkes who goes to Harry, without any prodding from DD (at least that we know of) and perhaps he just decided that Arthur wasn't that badly hurt or traumatized that he needed his help. Or perhaps Fawkes has just a special affection for Harry. Cheers, Sabrina My fics: http://www.geocities.com/honeycakehorse03/index.html Harry/Weasley Slash Archive: http://www.geocities.com/honeycakehorse03/HarryWeasley/HarryWeasley.html Harry/Weasley Slash Fuh-Q Fest: http://de.geocities.com/hpwslash/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Dec 8 20:18:01 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 20:18:01 -0000 Subject: Sexual Temptaion was: Stereotyping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86739 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > > Kneasy brought up the point of the lack of Temptation in the HP saga > and I agree with him. Did any one else notice how Harry was > inexplicibly drawn to pictures of Bellatrix whenever he saw one? I > though it was interesting. Now she is on his s**t list because of the > incident with Sirius, but why introduce such a powerfully sexual > woman (Am I projecting here? Is it only me who sees her as overtly > sexual? I know it's not canon but there is something about > Bellatrix...) and not use her. Can we expect to see the sexual > seduction of Harry by Bellatrix? I would love to see him stuggle > with that one: "What should I do? AK her now....or kiss her first?" > Kneasy (sweating slightly): Yes please! Not quite the sort of temptation I had in mind, but who cares? I've always been firmly of the opinion that what every 17 y.o. boy really needs is Tina Turner. And Bella is about the closest Harry is going to get. Impressionable young lad that he is, he wouldn't stand a chance. A lamb to the slaughter. I've often moaned about the lack of a femme fatale, too. This could get very, very interesting. Mandy: > If not Bellatrix, what about the new DADA teacher? I've been > expecting the arrival of a young, beautiful female teacher for the > last 2 books. The kind of teacher all the boys fall in love with and > fantasize about. Kind of like the stereotype of the sexy French > Language mistress. After all the girls had Lockheart in CoS and we > all know boys are a couple of years behind the girls in the whole sex > thing anyway, so it's my desire to see a sexy female professor, > secretly working for LV who's sent to Hogwarts with the goal of > seducing the kids (boys and girls) over to the dark side and become > DE's. > Kneasy: These are plot lines that I can live with. I may well write to JKR with suggestions and a plea that the next book have an illustrated edition. More seriously though, she was very good at the basic ineptitude of young males starting out on life's rich tapestry in GoF. It would set up some nice tensions too, but I doubt she would do more than hint at the potential for mass mayhem. Flitwick would have spasms and McGonagall would have kittens. How would DD deal with this? Dose the pumpkin juice, presumably. However, a hormonal dilemma over Bella could be a serious possibility. From kcawte at ntlworld.com Tue Dec 9 04:19:50 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 20:19:50 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sexual Temptation (was: Stereotyping) References: Message-ID: <004601c3be0b$c0ba0500$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 86740 Nora, > > I hate to drag out the old Four Loves discussion that's flowed around > here before, but... > > Why do 'love' and 'sexuality' have to be considered as synonyms? It > seems to me that we, in our general cultural framework, have great > difficulty separating the two, > I have no doubt that Sirius loves/ed both Remus and James. But that > doesn't mean he necessarily had sexual feelings towards either of > them. He may well could have, but to assume it as a necessary > consequence of closeness seems actually somewhat retrograde to me. > > The one big thing that make me wonder about the Sirius/Remus closure > is the whole 'thinking he was a spy, and therefore switching Secret > Keepers without telling him'. Remus also thought Sirius was the > spy. Maybe I'm biased, but you generally don't suspect the Love of > Your Life Who You Are Oh-So-Close To as the spy. > K 'it doesn't mean he necessarily had sexual feelings towards either of them'. I agree it doesn't but by the same token it doesn't necessarily mean that he *didn't*. I *specifically* used the word crush when talking about James because while I agree they loved one another I didn't want to suggest Sirius was 'in love' - but merely that he had ambiguous feelings about the guy. Let's just assume for the time being he is gay since there's no way to tell for sure and I agree it's possible he is and possible he isn't but I don't want to argue his sexuality right now just back up my argument that he could have had a relationship with Remus and could have had a crish on James. Sirius is 16ish in the flashback and therefore just coming to terms with his sexuality (whatever it is). His best mate is handsome, outgoing, charming (if you're not a Slytherin), and a quidditch star - he also comes from a presumably loving family so as well as being his best mate he also has everything Sirius wants out of life. I'm not trying to argue that Sirius was in love with him just that from what we know of the situation and from the clues we see in the Pensieve (James plays to the crown, Sirius plays to an audience of one - James) Sirius may have been confused to say the least about his feelings for James. If you add up the love he definitely felt for the guy, the admiration he probably felt, envy of James' so much better family life, the hormones that are flooding through his body, and the burgeoning recognition that girls are all very well but he's not interested in them 'that way', he may well have at least thought he was in love with James. Now to Sirius/Remus - you might not want to suspect the love of your life is a spy but as a Member of the Order of the Phoenix and fighter in the war against Voldemort, not to mention the fact that his best friend and his family's lives (including his Godson) depended on it he couldn't avoid the truth no matter how unpleasant or 'unbelievable' it might be. Sirius (and the others) knew that one of James' close friends was a spy. So Sirius has three suspects to choose from - himself, his lover, and the 'tagalong'. Well he knows for a fact he isn't the spy. We've seen how Sirius and Remus consider Peter to be weak and clinging from the scene in the Shack and the way the Marauders seem to have treated him as captive audience and hero-worshipper in the flashbacks - that image doesn't fit with someone who has been spying on James et al for the best part of a year. It takes a certain amount of steady nerves and sheer balls to risk being caught by the Aurors, to risk being caught by the Order and to risk failing Voldemort (who let's face it doesn't seem overly forgiving of failure). In Sirius' eyes it isn't possible for Peter to do that, not because he *wouldn't* but rather because he *couldn't*. That only leaves one option - when you've eliminated the impossible ... etc etc. So Sirius has no choice but to believe Remus is the traitor (and vice versa) - the strain of this belief, which presumably has been growing for the same length of time they've known there is a traitor, must have put a strain on their relationship (be it romantic of friendship) and started to drive them apart, so they're talking less, and the further apart they are the more likely it seems that the other guy must be the traitor. Now the other 'interesting' fact is that Sirius says he changed so that he wouldn't betray the Potters - well he seems fairly certain in the Shack that he would have died to protect them, so why wasn't he confident of that at the time? Maybe because he thought that the one person he *might* give in to and betray James for is Remus - which to me is another indication that he and Remus were possibly closer than friends. Now I'm not saying this is or isn't how things happened - just that it is a possible scenario and canon doesn't contradict it (which is imo all that is necessary for a theory to be viable). Of course we also don't know what peter was doing during this time - maybe he was helping to plant seeds of doubt in Sirius' ear and the same for Remus (after all Remus is a Dark Creature and the ww treats him badly, if Voldemort promised him equality based on purity of blood regardless of his condition he could turn. Or for that matter just look at Sirius' family, the apple never falls far from the tree, and we know Sirius is capable of betrayal he betrayed Remus by nearly feeding Snape to him .... these aren't my opinions btw just possible arguments Peter could have used) K "The Loudest Noise Comes From The Electric Minerva." From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Mon Dec 8 20:20:48 2003 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 20:20:48 -0000 Subject: Forgive this cranky theory(Re: There is Death and then again there is death) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86741 "What if he dies at the end of the series?" "How can he manage to survive?" Whatever I try to say "he's just a paper character, he's not real", I can't help worrying about Harry. The publication of the French translation (very nice art cover, very good translation, very huge razzia in the bookshops) doesn't help either: they gave me a bookmark you can hang on your bedroom's or office's door, and it says: "Please do not disturb, I'm with Harry Potter". This morning a friend of mine told me that she hardly slept last night "because of Harry". Another one sent me an e-mail saying "he was waiting for me in the bookshop". I wonder if he isn't lurking through the corridors of the lyceum, hiding under his invisibility cloak That's OK, he's part of our lives, even if he doesn't really exist. And one reason why I like HPfGU, is that it shows me that we are not, that I'm not the only one in that case. I've been reading the posts, it's funny how many among them deal with the possible conclusion of the story, with the blasted prophecy ? , with how the Unforgivable Curses work, and whether Harry will use them to conquer Voldemort, with who is who in the big wizarding family tree, and whether it can explain why the Dark Wacko wants to kill the boy. Most of the current threats tend to point to THE question: will Harry survive, and how will he manage to do it? I like all the theories posters make in order to find a satisfying solution, and particularly the one that follows. I'd like to add my two Knuts; they may rejoice those who desperately want a happy end. Steve bboy_mn wrote: "Alternately; the old switch-a-roo - I have a theory, stated here many times; short version, that when either Voldemort or Harry die, the other becomes vulnerable. By one of many possible happenstances, Harry dies by some definition, during that techincal death, Voldemort becomes vulnerable and is defeated by someone else. After which, Harry is revived from his technical but not true death, and everyone goes to McDonald's to celebrate. This allows the prophecy to be fulfilled; Harry dies (by some definition), his death allows Voldemort to live, but that life is a mortal life which makes him vulnerable. Bada-Bing Bada-Boom; Voldie is killed. ...drop the curtain, turn out the lights, that's a wrap. My point, once again, is that there is death then again there is death; the two not necessarily being the same. There are ways the prophecy can be fulfilled without Harry having to boldly, coldly, bluntly, and with calculated intent directly kill Voldemort. Things I think are very UNlikely to happen- - The whole series is resolved by some bizarre application of time travel. Been there, done that. I could see time travel re-appearing in some secondary way, but JKR has played that card, and to use it as the resolution to the whole series would be a monumental cop-out." Well Do you know you could have found a nice solution to THE question? What if we combine two elements from those we are given in your post? "Snapely" written on a blackboard, it could give the following formula: Take "time travel re-appearing in some secondary way", Add "Harry dies by some definition", and some phoenix feathers, Warm the mixture with a huge Avada Kedavra, Incorporate a good genealogical twist, playing with a long debated confusion between "ancestor" and "descendent", When it is simmering, sprinkle it with some Ron/Hermione shipping, Add another genealogical twist connecting the Potters or the Evans to the Weasleys, Shake it well and put it in a seventh book. It would give : Voldemort couldn't kill Harry the very first time because he was protected not only by his mother's sacrifice, but also by his ignorance. He didn't know that Avada Kedavra was a lethal curse; he didn't even now that Voldemort was there to kill him. Avada Kedavra is a curse which power is based on the fear of dying, and it rebounded on the shield of Harry's innocence. Now, let's suppose that Harry happens to become a one year old baby again. I can't tell how it's done; there are many possibilities (a new visit to the Time Room of the Ministry? A potion like the one Snape uses to make Trevor become a tadpole? Harry's connection with Fawkes?..). There are also many reasons why it can be done (an accident, an attempt to murder Harry, or his own free will ). Be that as it may, this is "Harry dying by some definition", for he is no longer the same. He doesn't remember anything about the blasted prophecy?, about Voldemort, about his friends, about Hogwarts, about the Wizarding World. He's only an infant. Voldemort comes, and because he's unable to learn from his own experience, he tries to curse Harry with an Avada Kedavra. The curse rebounds another time, and Voldemort kills himself, because he was definitely too stupid to understand that Harry, giving him his blood, had become his ancestor, and that if he cancelled his life, he logically cancelled his own existence. But Harry survives, and now he is alone, safe and free. Hagrid comes and takes him, to deliver him to Ron and Hermione. Ron and Hermione are now engaged. Ron discovered that he was relative with Harry, and he's ready to adopt him. Hermione is very glad, because she's now a virtuosic knitter and will make loads of baby clothes for Harry. Dobby offers himself as a nanny. Now, Harry can start a brand new life, a normal life. They all will be very happy. They all go to Macdonald's to celebrate that wonderful prospective, and then the terrible thing happens: baby Harry becomes addicted to hamburgers Oh la la I think it's time to stop it, the last paragraph sounds like an extract from The Quibbler. But I hope that the beginning is not so bad. I think it will make my French Potterfriends laugh; it can be useful if, as I suppose, they come to me after reading the fifth book, lamenting over the loss of Sirius, and saying: "What if Harry dies at the end of the series? How can he manage to survive ?" Amicalement, Iris From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 20:27:30 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 20:27:30 -0000 Subject: Speculations for year 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86742 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > There seems to be a lot of talk about Harry being massively depressed > in Book 6. Frankly I was surprised that he was so low at the begining > of OotP. It seems to me that Harry has a slightly clearer future > ahead of him now, especially since everyone now accepts that LV is > back, and that some of the high profile DE's have been captured. The > war has begun and Harry's mission is slightly clearer (kill LV or > die). > > I personally think that now that Harry knows pretty much > everything, and now that he knows how many people really support and > and believe in him, that he will be in a slightly better place at the > start of Book 6. He is probably still mourning Sirius and is slightly > despondent over the prophecy situation, but he knows what he's gotta > do now, and a plan of action makes anything easier to deal with. > > Meri bboy_mn: I've said before that I think we will see an emotionally distant Harry in the next book, and I think there is sufficient foreshadowing of this isolation at the end of OoP. I see an odd sort of calm coming over Harry. On the outside he will be calm, polite, and friendly to everyone, but the people who know him best will sense a 'distance'. The outward calm comes from resignation to his fate; he knows who he is, what he must do, and what that means. He has no choice but to accept it. However, his inward landscape will be very guarded. He has found out the hard way, and from more than one experience, that getting too close to Harry Potter can get you killed. So Harry will isolate himself; he will be friendly, polite and helpful to everyone; friendly to all but friends to no one. Of course, Ron and Hermione are never going to let him get away with this for very long, and no doubt, circumstance will force Harry realize that love is not an intellectual or practical decision; it just 'is'. In resolving this internal conflict, Harry will come to realize that the love of and for his friends is not a liability, but his greatest strength. This doesn't eliminate all other possible emotions. Harry is furious with Snape, but I think we all see that this is displaced anger. He desperately needs someone to blame, and Snape is a convinient target. This too shall be pass. Certainly, Harry is deeply depressed and grieving Sirius's death; that's a loss and a sufferring was all have to deal with at some point in our lifetime, and as miserable as it is, life must go on, and so too shall we. Naturally, we will continue to see animosity between Harry and Draco. Certainly more so now than ever before. I have no doubt that this will escalate from school boy pranks, to a much more serious and dangerous level. As a general prediction, I think we are going to see Neville bloom like we had never dreamed possible. We will see a new determination, strength, and magical power. In addition, I think a great deal of the Longbottom's history and present circumstances will be revealed. I've held the belief for a long time that Harry, as a baby, stayed with the Longbottoms during the missing 24 hours before he was brought to the Dursleys, and that this is why the DE's thought the Longbottoms might have some information about Voldemort. This knowledge will intensify Harry's guilt and isolation, knowing that he was indirectly the cause of what happened to Neville's parent. How much burden can one poor boy possibly handle? On another track, Ron will conciously realize he has feelings for Hermione, but despite that knowledge, still won't have clue what to do about it. Just a thought. bboy_mn From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Mon Dec 8 17:18:28 2003 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 17:18:28 -0000 Subject: Did James and Lily know about the prophecy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86743 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Without actually taking a stand in favor of this intriguing theory, I > want to mention that there's at least one bit of canonical support for > it. When Harry visits Ollivander's in SS/PS (p. 82 Am. ed.), > Ollivander tells him that he remembers every wand he ever sold, > including James's ("excellent for transfiguration") and Lily's ("nice > wand for charm work"). We've already learned at least part of the > reason why James's skill in transfiguration is important (he was an > animagus). We haven't yet learned much about Lily, but we can be sure > that her skill with charms will play a role later. Madmaxime: I too believe that Lily's 'skill with charms' will play an important role in the series. If Lily knew about the prophecy (which I believe she did - at least in part), she would have correctly intuited that Voldemort would want to complete his mission as quickly as possible, going for the kill with Harry first. Killing (or not killing) Lily would be an after thought since he apparently did not see her as a threat. It would therefore be imperative for Lily to get Voldemort to kill her before he could get to Harry. Otherwise, all would be lost. Her "Please no.... take me.... kill me instead....", and her refusal to "step away" (which any mother would do, of course) would then take on added significance. Max From erinellii at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 20:41:56 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 20:41:56 -0000 Subject: Stereotyping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86744 > > > > ~ Martha, contemplating writing a book called "Harry lives with > > Sirius and Remus" ;-) > Susan: > But what I was suggesting is that all you see is mixed gender > couples, and boy/girl pairings. > > So you are suggesting that there are lesbians/gay men right in front > of Harry but he's not "seeing" them? All he sees are the boyfriends > and girlfriends kissing at the pub....the married couples...he's > oblivious to any other model...wow, now that's fascinating thought... Erin: That was definitely the way I read Remus moving in with Sirius after Christmas. And they gave Harry a mutual Christmas gift. I saw it as JKR sort of throwing a bone to the fans of that pairing, the way the TV show "Xena: Warrior Princess" used to mess around with Xena and her sidekick Gabrielle being percieved as lesbians. Erin From fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com Mon Dec 8 20:33:33 2003 From: fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com (Martha) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 20:33:33 -0000 Subject: Stereotyping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86745 Katherine Cawte said: > Why is it that society tends to see violence as a perfectly > acceptable topic for children's literature but sex (and we're not > talking about Snape and Dumbledore going at it on one of the tables > in the Great Hall, but rather homosexuality or a homosexual > relationship being portrayed in a non-overt way similar > toPercy/Penelope or Molly/Arthur) is some how 'wrong' or a bad > influence? Martha: Not much more to add to that - well said. **Applauds** Susan: > > So you [Martha]are suggesting that there are lesbians/gay men > right in front of Harry but he's not "seeing" them? All he sees are > the boyfriends and girlfriends kissing at the pub....the married > couples...he's oblivious to any other model...wow, now that's a > fascinating thought... Martha: Er... yes. That is kind of what I'm saying, I guess. Not necessarily that he only notices the straight couples and that gay couples are all around - I don't think that if, say, Ernie Macmillan and Justin Finch-Fletchley had been passionately snogging in the teashop too that Harry wouldn't have noticed. (In any case, in that scene, Cho draws even more attention to Davies and his girlfriend even after Harry has initially noticed them.) I guess what I mean is that Harry, like many 15-year-old boys, is totally oblivious. He didn't even notice that Ginny fancied him, and it was blindingly obvious. Ron's the same, isn't he? Think of Hermione clueing them in on Cho's feelings. They just don't get it. In the scene in the tearoom, it's Valentine's day, Harry's on a date with a girl he's fancied for, what, two years, it's all a bit awkward, and he's not sure if he should kiss her. So he looks around him and all he can see are boys and girls kissing. Boys and girls kissing are salient for Harry at that moment, so they jump out at him and he notices them. If he'd been in the tearoom with Ron and Hermione discussing the hunt for Sirius, he might not have noticed all the snogging. (An equivalent situation: last year I had a pregnancy scare - I wasn't, luckily - and everywhere I looked I saw babies. Babies in prams, babies on TV, pregnant women, people holding babies...) Laura: > If she had out gay characters, though, that would not read the same > way as the gender or race inclusiveness she writes in, because we > (that is, the culture in general) still haven't come to the point > where being gay is considered a subset of normal. It would be > jarring, I think, and cause readers to devote too much attention to > the gay characters because of their gayness. > Added to that problem is that these books focus on an adolescent. > Not having grown up gay, I can't say for sure, but from what I > understand from my gay friends and relatives, awareness of one's > gayness is an issue on top of the general sexuality stuff all kids > go through. In other words, everyone has hormones and feelings but > if you're straight you are part of the common experience and you > don't have to figure out what your sexuality means as part of your > culture. (I'm saying this clumsily-I hope I'm getting my point > across.) You just know that you are a sexual being. But if you're > gay you have a whole other bunch of stuff to think about in addition > to the hormones and feelings, which after all work the same way > regardless of who switches them on. > So just as Harry falls into "the norm" in other ways-white, male, > not physically, mentally or emotionally disabled, etc.-he also must > be straight and see the world from that perspective. If that > weren't the case, the story would be imbalanced. We'd filter his > experiences through his differentness, whatever that would be. > That's not the story JKR wants to tell. No, you are making sense. In today's climate, it would be difficult, I think, to make Harry a part of any (sociocultural) minority and not address it. The "default" of western society is male, white, straight, able-bodied, and so on (not that that's the way things should necessarily be, but don't get me started on that one), and I think to give Harry any more struggles on top of those he's already got would make the story even more complicated than it already is. (This is not a dig at JKR, by the way.) Harry has enough trouble dealing with seeing a girl, getting his homework done, changing his socks, and being responsible for defeating an Evil Overlord and saving the world. Dumbledore didn't make him a prefect because he thought Harry had enough to deal with. If he was the victim of a major societal prejudice too - well, you get the idea. I'd hope that one day in the not-too distant future, we'll have books where it's just not an issue, because it just won't be an issue in society, and the experience of a gay teenage will be the same as that of a straight teenager - or whatever - but I have a feeling that day is a long way off. Laura again: > A quick observation on the Remus/Sirius ship: it always strikes me > when I read the Pensieve II scene that JKR has a girl in the exam > room gazing with interest at Sirius. And what's Sirius's reaction? > He doesn't even notice. He's busy checking out his homies. Make of > that what you will. Martha: Absolutely! And the only people I can think of who live together and give joint Christmas presents - as Sirius and Remus do in OoP - are couples. And have you noticed how bitchy Sirius can get? (Not as bitchy as Draco, but that's going off the point.) > Laura, who can't wait to order Martha's "Harry Lives with Remus and > Sirius" book Martha: I'll put your name down for it. Would you also be interested in the sequel, "Harry lives with Ernie and Justin"? ;-) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 21:14:05 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 21:14:05 -0000 Subject: Forgive this cranky theory (Re: There is Death and ...there is death) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86746 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "iris_ft" wrote: > > "What if he dies at the end of the series?" "How can he manage to > survive?" Whatever I try to say "he's just a paper character, he's > not real", I can't help worrying about Harry. ...edited... > bboy_mn: I think we all have a very high emotional investment in Harry Potter. I think it is safe to say that 'paper' boy or not, we love him deeply, and that his presents has enriched out lives. I have predicted several times in the past, that if Harry dies in the end, there will be a worldwide out pouring of grief the likes of which the world has never seen. Grief that exceed that of the death of beloved king and president (and beloved princesses). I truly can see the world crippled by Harry's death; schools closed, industry and commerce gind to a halt, mass grief torn depression, etc.... > Iris continues: > > Well Do you know you could have found a nice solution to THE > question? > > What if we combine two elements from those we are given in your post? > > "Snapely" written on a blackboard, it could give the following > formula: > > Take "time travel re-appearing in some secondary way", > Add "Harry dies by some definition", and some phoenix feathers, > Warm the mixture with a huge Avada Kedavra, Incorporate a good > genealogical twist, playing with a long debated confusion between > "ancestor" and "descendent", When it is simmering, sprinkle it with > some Ron/Hermione shipping, Add another genealogical twist > connecting the Potters or the Evans to the Weasleys, Shake it well > and put it in a seventh book. > > It would give : > > Voldemort couldn't kill Harry the very first time because he was > protected not only by his mother's sacrifice, but also by his > ignorance. ... Avada Kedavra is ... based on the fear of dying, and > it rebounded on the shield of Harry's innocence. > > Now, let's suppose that Harry happens to become a one year old baby > again. I can't tell how it's done; there are many possibilities (a > new visit to the Time Room of the Ministry?) ... Voldemort ... tries > to curse Harry with an Avada Kedavra. The curse rebounds another > time, and Voldemort kills himself, because he (fails) to understand > that Harry, giving him his blood, had become his ancestor, and that > if he cancelled his life, he logically cancelled his own existence. > But Harry survives, and now ... deliver ... to Ron and Hermione. > ... Now, Harry can start a brand new life, a normal life. They all > will be very happy. They all go to Macdonald's to celebrate ... > > ...edited... > > Amicalement, > > Iris bboy_mn: Well, we don't forgive many 'crank' theories, but we've never met a 'cranky' theory we didn't like. ;) I think your idea, overal, is a little to far fetched, but is does have to elements that I like. First, in your case, Harry magically reduced to a baby. Given the grief and misery in Harry's life, grief and misery that, in my opinion, have only just begun; I like the idea of Harry having a chance to start over and grow up in a loving supportive happy trouble-free world. That would be nice. I also like the idea that sharing Harry's blood will give Voldemort a vulnerability that he has not foreseen. The original failed AK curse, implanted a bit of Voldemort in Harry. Now Harry, through Voldemort's own actions, has implanted a bit of himself in Voldemort. This blood vulnerability has been speculated before, but I don't think it has ever been presented in quite the way you did it. I have no doubt that this 'common' blood will be a key factor in the final resolution to the story. Of course, to predict the exact circumstances is next to impossible, but even given that, the general concept that a new modern day AK curse by Voldemort against Harry, could actually kill Voldemort once and for all, because in killing Harry, he is killing a bit of himself; well, that does have some appeal. Pleasure talking to you. bboy_mn From erinellii at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 21:44:17 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 21:44:17 -0000 Subject: Sexual Temptaion was: Stereotyping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86747 Mandy wrote: Can we expect to see the sexual > > seduction of Harry by Bellatrix? I would love to see him stuggle > > with that one: "What should I do? AK her now....or kiss her first?" > > > > Kneasy (sweating slightly): > Yes please! > Not quite the sort of temptation I had in mind, but who cares? > I've always been firmly of the opinion that what every 17 y.o. boy > really needs is Tina Turner. And Bella is about the closest Harry > is going to get. Impressionable young lad that he is, he wouldn't > stand a chance. A lamb to the slaughter. a hormonal dilemma over Bella could be a serious possibility. Erin: But why does it have to be Harry? I think that Bella killing Sirius sort of eliminated that possibility for him. Ron, however.... I seriously doubt we'll ever see this happen, though. Belatrix is married. And it strikes me as far more likely that she'll have some sort of backstory. Possibly she tried to seduce Harry's dad. Or - what if she and Remus Lupin had something going on before she was married and that was the reason everyone suspected him of being the spy? And what if Lupin still has feelings for her? Erin From lhuntley at fandm.edu Mon Dec 8 21:59:52 2003 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 16:59:52 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sexual Temptaion was: Stereotyping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86748 Mandy: > Kneasy brought up the point of the lack of Temptation in the HP saga > and I agree with him. Did any one else notice how Harry was > inexplicibly drawn to pictures of Bellatrix whenever he saw one? I > though it was interesting. Now she is on his s**t list because of the > incident with Sirius, but why introduce such a powerfully sexual > woman (Am I projecting here? Is it only me who sees her as overtly > sexual? I know it's not canon but there is something about > Bellatrix...) and not use her. Can we expect to see the sexual > seduction of Harry by Bellatrix? I would love to see him stuggle > with that one: "What should I do? AK her now....or kiss her first?" Can you imagine Harry thinking that? *is giggling at the very thought* It's so...so...Romance Novel-ish. *pictures Pirate!Harry in a strong wind, shirt billowing the way pirate shirts do* ^_^ I do agree, however, that Bellatrix is portrayed as "overtly sexual" (the heavy-lidded eyes, her passionate demeanor), and I do expect JKR plans to do something with it. As Harry matures he will certainly have to deal with his sexuality, and many authors writing adolescent characters choose to portray the anxiety/fear/confusion that goes along with realizing yourself as a sexual being through the symbolic use of an intimidating, sexualized nemesis. Perhaps this is the role Bellatrix will play in the next book? And yes, my mind automatically connects melodramatic sexual plots to romance novels and romance novels to billowing pirate shirts. What of it? ^_~ Laura (who doesn't have a thing for pirates at all, honest.) From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Dec 8 21:54:21 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 21:54:21 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall Road and the Elixir of Life ( was The Diary (just where did V get In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86749 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hp_lexicon" wrote: > In re: Vauxhall Road Steve Vander Ark: > You might want to take a look... ....a reference to > another Vauxhall Road which brings up some interesting > coincidences... > > The essay in question is located here: > http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essay-streets.html > Geoff: However, before you start re-locating Tom Riddle's orphanage to Chepstow (I do prefer names like Cas-Gwent and Cas-Newydd to the mundane English versions), remember that, in canon, the book carried "the printed name of a newsagent's in Vauxhall Road, LONDON" - my emphasis. Geoff From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 22:06:10 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 22:06:10 -0000 Subject: Sexual Temptaion was: Stereotyping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86750 Mandy wrote: Can we expect to see the sexual seduction of Harry by Bellatrix? I would love to see him stuggle with that one: "What should I do? AK her now....or kiss her first?" > > > > > > > Kneasy (sweating slightly): Yes please! Not quite the sort of temptation I had in mind, but who cares? I've always been firmly of the opinion that what every 17 y.o. boy really needs is Tina Turner. And Bella is about the closest Harry is going to get. Impressionable young lad that he is, he wouldn't stand a chance. A lamb to the slaughter. a hormonal dilemma over Bella could be a serious possibility. > > Erin: > > But why does it have to be Harry? I think that Bella killing Sirius sort of eliminated that possibility for him. Ron, however.... > > I seriously doubt we'll ever see this happen, though. Belatrix is > married. And it strikes me as far more likely that she'll have some sort of backstory. Possibly she tried to seduce Harry's dad. Or - what if she and Remus Lupin had something going on before she was married and that was the reason everyone suspected him of being the spy? And what if Lupin still has feelings for her? > Laura: I love this list! Mandy, your Harry/Bella ship is the darkest one I've seen-but delicious! There are lots of wild ideas out there but this one could really happen. I agree that she's got a lot of sexuality about her-she's like the 7 deadly sins all rolled into one person. Bella would have to turn the heat down a bit, though, to get to Harry, I think. She's pretty overwhelming at full strength. Still, I have suggested that Harry's vulnerability lies in his desire for relationship, and I bet Bella could play that masterfully. I don't see the Sirius issue as a problem. Literature is full of formerly deadly enemies fatally attrracted to each other. Especially if she can convince our poor gullible Harry that Remus did it... Harry to Bella: Mrs Lestragne, you're trying to seduce me. [pause] Aren't you? From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Dec 8 22:17:35 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 17:17:35 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Stereotyping Message-ID: <14b.27e37501.2d06527f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86751 In a message dated 12/8/2003 8:19:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, Martha (fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com )writes: Where is it written that children shouldn't read about "homosexuality issues" or that publishers are unlikely to allow these issues to be dealt with? Sherrie here: A few years back, there was quite a flap in New York area schools when they tried to introduce books dealing with homosexual families into the elementary curriculum, under the umbrella of the "Children of the Rainbow" curriculum initiative. Specifically, the books were titled "Heather Has Two Mommies" and "Daddy's Roommate". Granted, this was a decade ago - but regrettably, attitudes haven't changed all that much in the population at large in that timespan. I personally cannot see Scholastic, at least, swimming that strongly against the general current and introducing an openly-gay relationship in future books. (I can't speak for Bloomsbury, of course - I've no clue what the atmosphere for such things is in the UK.) Just my two Knuts - as always, your mileage may vary. Sherrie "As an actor, you've got to have very innocent eyes." - Alan Rickman [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Mon Dec 8 22:18:23 2003 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 22:18:23 -0000 Subject: Forgive this cranky theory (Re: There is Death and ...there is death) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86752 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > I also like the idea that sharing Harry's blood will give Voldemort a > vulnerability that he has not foreseen. The original failed AK curse, > implanted a bit of Voldemort in Harry. Now Harry, through Voldemort's > own actions, has implanted a bit of himself in Voldemort. > > This blood vulnerability has been speculated before, but I don't think > it has ever been presented in quite the way you did it. I have no > doubt that this 'common' blood will be a key factor in the final > resolution to the story. Of course, to predict the exact circumstances > is next to impossible, but even given that, the general concept that a > new modern day AK curse by Voldemort against Harry, could actually > kill Voldemort once and for all, because in killing Harry, he is > killing a bit of himself; well, that does have some appeal. > > Pleasure talking to you. > > bboy_mn Pleasure talking to you, too. What I wrote about blood vulnerability comes from what I'm currently reading. You are right when you say that Harry enriched our lives; thanks to him (let's say he's a real kid ) I rediscovered Alchemy. I had started studying it when I was reading Calderon's plays, but Sigismundo was not as touching as Harry Alchemy says things like "mercury contains its sulphur, and that there's no sulphur without its mercury". What do we see in our HP books, now? Harry was reborn from Voldemort, and Voldemort was reborn from Harry. Harry was born from James, and the Prong Patronus was born from Harry. In OotP, Ron and Hermione care for Harry as if he was their child, and then Harry teaches them DADA as if they were his children And I think we can find out many other examples of "alchemical reciprocity" in the series. "What is above is like what is below, and what is below is like what is above, to create the miracle of a single work"; so says the Table of Emerald, and I think that JKR perfectly understood the message. Amicalement, Iris From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Mon Dec 8 22:46:34 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 22:46:34 -0000 Subject: Hog's Head Barman In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031208023525.024bfec0@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86753 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Derek Hiemforth wrote: > It's amusing to note that "Aberforth Dumbledore" is an anagram for > "the bar-room befuddler." :) > > - Derek Carolyn: Earlier this summer someone else (Talisman I think) pointed out that the name of the bar might be another clue to the possible link with Dumbledore: Hog(wart)s Head From rredordead at aol.com Mon Dec 8 23:00:34 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 23:00:34 -0000 Subject: Sexual Temptaion was: Stereotyping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86754 > Erin wrote: > I seriously doubt we'll ever see this happen, though. Belatrix is > married. And it strikes me as far more likely that she'll have some sort of backstory. Possibly she tried to seduce Harry's dad. Or - what if she and Remus Lupin had something going on before she was married and that was the reason everyone suspected him of being the spy? And what if Lupin still has feelings for her? Mandy again: Somehow I just don't see the *little* of fact the Bellatrix being married has ever stopped her from seducing and sleeping with other men. (Or women, for that matter). Bellatrix is 100% her own woman and a Dark one at that, very dark. I don't think she considers 'Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery' as anything more than a joke. Either her husband loves it, or if he doesn't, he accepts with it anyway. He simply has no choice, the poor dear. As for her back-story, oh boy, do I have delightful ideas about that. I definitely saw a relationship with James in the way she referred to Harry as the 'baby potter', don't ask me why, there is no canon to support it, but I immediately saw a connection there. Also a strong connection between Lucius and Bella as well. They have a huge power struggle going on, just look at the way they fight in the Ministry, repressed sexual desire if I ever saw one. Now there is a delightful trio, Bella, Lucius and Narcissa. I hadn't' thought of Lupin though, that's a good one. It would fit with Bellatrix nature to want to have sex with a Werewolf. What could be more exciting and dangerous? Imagine....no stop. stop..stop..stop. This is getting too far in the realm of FanFic and shipping for me. I hate fanfic and shipping! I do....well not hate, but can't enjoy it when its other people ideas, I only like my own fantasies, most of the time. ;-) So I don't want to inflict my sordid ideas on the rest of you. Let's get back to some serious debating. What's this I read about Severus being Lily and Petunia's brother? Any thoughts on that? Mandy. From drednort at alphalink.com.au Mon Dec 8 23:06:36 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 10:06:36 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vauxhall Road and the Elixir of Life ( was The Diary (just where did V get In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FD59EAC.22060.71A1CB@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 86755 On 8 Dec 2003 at 21:54, Geoff Bannister wrote: > Geoff: > However, before you start re-locating Tom Riddle's orphanage to > Chepstow (I do prefer names like Cas-Gwent and Cas-Newydd to the > mundane English versions), remember that, in canon, the book > carried "the printed name of a newsagent's in Vauxhall Road, LONDON" - > my emphasis. Kennington Lane in Kennington (which is part of London) was known for a long time as Vauxhall Road. I'm not sure when the change occurred - I do know it was still Vauxhall Road as late as 1942. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Mon Dec 8 23:28:01 2003 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 23:28:01 -0000 Subject: In bed with Harry Potter (Re: Sexual Temptaion ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86756 Eros and Thanatos in the HP series Spicy debate, isn't it? --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > Laura: > > I love this list! > > Mandy, your Harry/Bella ship is the darkest one I've seen-but > delicious! There are lots of wild ideas out there but this one > could really happen. I agree that she's got a lot of sexuality > about her-she's like the 7 deadly sins all rolled into one person. > Bella would have to turn the heat down a bit, though, to get to > Harry, I think. She's pretty overwhelming at full strength. Still, > I have suggested that Harry's vulnerability lies in his desire for > relationship, and I bet Bella could play that masterfully. > > I don't see the Sirius issue as a problem. Literature is full of > formerly deadly enemies fatally attrracted to each other. > Especially if she can convince our poor gullible Harry that Remus > did it... > > Harry to Bella: Mrs Lestragne, you're trying to seduce me. [pause] > Aren't you? The Young Man and Death, isn't it? There's a ballet called like that, and it ends very sadly, because the Young Man dies. But I agree with you, Bellatrix is an erotic character, precisely because she's an image of Death, and because she's dangerous. The tie between Eros and Thanatos is a classical topic in art. However, I don't know if she would try to seduce Harry, except, maybe, if she acts by order of Voldemort, in order to deliver him to the Dark Lord or to convert him to the Dark Side (what a nice plot it would give if she managed to integrate the Hogwarts staff, why not as a DADA teacher I need to restrain my imagination before starting writing dull fanfictions; furthermore it wouldn't be very original). No, I'd rather bet that she had designs on her cousin Sirius, the handsome guy that would become one day the head of the Black family. After all, that family seemed to act the way the royal families of the Ancien R?gime used to do (in the Spanish branch of the house of Habsburg, for instance, they experimented all the possibilities of marriage, besides the father/daughter, mother/son, brother/sister options). Would it be too far fetched if we supposed that Bellatrix, and why not main part of the family, thought that Sirius would marry her in order to keep a pure lineage? That they were nearly engaged (or engaged since their birth, as it was done in the royal families of the Ancien R?gime) when he decided he had to leave the House of Black? It could help understand Bellatrix's fierceness while she was fighting with Sirius: you know, the old clich? of the resentful rejected lover You are right too when you write that "literature is full of deadly enemies fatally attracted to each other". Note that I sniped "formerly", because in the HP series, the "deadly enemies fatally attracted to each other" seem to be Harry and Voldemort, the two characters that are tied one to the other since the beginning, and seem to be doomed to end together. I'm not saying by this that Harry feels an erotic fascination towards Voldemort. I only noticed, while I was reading the books, that the way JKR made Voldemort talk to Harry, the way he used the verb "to conquer" when he described what had happened in Godric's Hollow, was rather particular. And what can we think of the way Voldemort "visits" Harry while the boy is in bed? It starts with the first dream Harry has when he arrives at Hogwarts. It goes on with the Diary: Harry understand how it work, then travels through Tom's memories and is seduced by his lies. Where does it happen? In Harry's bed. Not to mention the fact that most of the time, Harry is asleep in his bed when Voldemort possesses his mind. OK, we can object that when he is asleep is when Harry is more vulnerable; it doesn't matter, it happens while he is in bed Why? I don't know, but Voldemort's obsession towards the Boy Who Lived has very strange accents. And I won't try to comment the sequences when Lupin or Sirius put, or don't put, their hand on Harry's shoulder. Harry, cet obscur objet du d?sir Amicalement, Iris From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 23:22:15 2003 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 23:22:15 -0000 Subject: Sexual Temptaion was: Stereotyping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86757 Mandy wrote: > Kneasy brought up the point of the lack of Temptation in the HP saga > and I agree with him. Did any one else notice how Harry was > inexplicibly drawn to pictures of Bellatrix whenever he saw one? I > though it was interesting. Now she is on his s**t list because of the > incident with Sirius, but why introduce such a powerfully sexual > woman (Am I projecting here? Is it only me who sees her as overtly > sexual? I know it's not canon but there is something about > Bellatrix...) and not use her. Yolanda here: Actually, she's been on his s**t list since he found out about what he did/helped to do to Neville's parents. The Sirius incident just moved her name closer to the top (if that's possible). No, it wasn't just you. If I remember correctly, every description of her has been pretty sultry. She was described as having heavily-lidded eyes and black hair. She also appeared arrogant which for some reason, to me, falls in with the idea of a sensual dark witch who knows how good she looks. She was described pretty positively considering she's one of the bad guys. And on a sidenote that I don't want to think about, Parvati and Cho both have long dark hair. Harry may like dark haired women. I think McGonagal's safe though. To be fair, both Cho and Parvati are described as pretty so their dark hair may just be a coincidence. > Can we expect to see the sexual > seduction of Harry by Bellatrix? I would love to see him stuggle > with that one: "What should I do? AK her now....or kiss her first?" I doubt it. Harry may be intrigued by/attracted to her because of her striking looks, but I just don't see him having any trouble blasting her. She's morally repulsive. Harry won't be able to get past that. > > If not Bellatrix, what about the new DADA teacher? I've been > expecting the arrival of a young, beautiful female teacher for the > last 2 books. The kind of teacher all the boys fall in love with and > fantasize about. Kind of like the stereotype of the sexy French > Language mistress. After all the girls had Lockheart in CoS and we > all know boys are a couple of years behind the girls in the whole sex > thing anyway, so it's my desire to see a sexy female professor, > secretly working for LV who's sent to Hogwarts with the goal of > seducing the kids (boys and girls) over to the dark side and become > DE's. > > All right that's enough of that. > > Mandy. Yolanda again: If that happens, then I'd want to see Hermione being her usual perceptive self, seeing right through her, and warning Harry and Ron who of course will be too busy listening to the siren song of their hormones to heed Hermione's warning. As for appearance, I'm picturing a high heel wearing, Slytherin alumnus with long, dark hair. Oh no, I'm back to the "long, dark hair" again. I better end this now. Yolanda From Robert at shavian.fsnet.co.uk Mon Dec 8 21:14:08 2003 From: Robert at shavian.fsnet.co.uk (Robert Shaw) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 21:14:08 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] It's A Wonderful Life? (was re: Overturning the prophecy) References: <5.0.2.1.2.20031208153804.02216690@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <0e3001c3bde8$be1c8bb0$27a987d9@robertft56e9wi> No: HPFGUIDX 86758 Tanya Swaine wrote: > At 17:26 7/12/2003 -0800, you wrote: >> >> Perhaps they could somehow arrange things (time travel? an obscure >> spell?) so that history is altered such that Tom Riddle never becomes >> Lord Voldemort. >> > > No, doesn't sound crazy to me. > > However, this question is one I have, regarding this theory, I would > like to know what would then happen to all LV's actions the first > time round. Would they exist or not? But it would neatly fix the > prophecy, maybe without another war. Who knows. > If time travel is invoked, an elegantly circular way of irrevocably disposing of LV is to send his obliviated soul back in time so it can be (re)born as Tom Riddle. That imprisons his soul in a time-loop, from which there would be no hope of escape. If some part of Voldemort remembered, but was unable to act, it would be condemned to watch its failure repeated for all eternity, truly a fate worse than death. Conversely, Voldemort might send Harry's soul back in time, locking Harry in the same inescapable prison. Until the prophecy is resolved, either option might have happened, but when it is which ever becomes true will always have been true. -- Robert From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Tue Dec 9 00:21:15 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 13:21:15 +1300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Severus - was Sexual Temptation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031209131718.025aedc0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 86759 At 23:00 8/12/2003 +0000, you wrote: >Mandy wrote > >Let's get back to some serious debating. What's this I read about >Severus being Lily and Petunia's brother? Any thoughts on that? > >Mandy. Tanya here. No real comment about the rest of the post. But my thoughts on Severus. For that to be right, either Severus or Lily would be a real late starter. One held back before starting school, or they would have to be twins as they were both in the same year at Hogwarts. Tanya From Zarleycat at aol.com Tue Dec 9 00:24:04 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 00:24:04 -0000 Subject: Harry's weak spot (was:Re: Choices) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86760 > Marianne: > Harry spent a fair amount of time in the same location as > Sirius. Yet, there is no canon that they ever talked in depth about > Lily and James, that Harry ever took the opportunity to even seek out > some time with Sirius to discuss them or ask questions. It strikes a > dissonant note with me. It just doesn't seem logical that that would > happen. > > > Laura: > I can think of some very plausible reasons why Harry didn't seek > Sirius out on this topic during the summer in OoP. First, Harry had > more urgent information to collect and process. Second, the > atmosphere of tension at GP didn't really lend itself to that sort of > intimacy-James was already a point of contention between Molly and > Sirius. Third, both Harry and Sirius were deeply preoccupied by > problems of their own and just wanted to take comfort in each other's > company. Fourth, it's really hard for me to imagine a 15 year old > boy sitting an adult down and asking the kinds of questions Harry > would have had to ask Sirius. The HP characters tend to be pretty > reserved on the best of days (with notable lapses, of course). > Sirius and Remus drop an occasional morsel of information > about their school days during Harry's stay at GP and Harry gets to > chew over those. It doesn't seem to occur to him to ask for more > right then. Marianne responds: Yes, Harry has a lot on his mind. And Grimmauld Place is a horror show. But, it's not all gloom and doom for Harry. And he still believes in the possibility of living with Sirius. US edition, pg. 118 -119. " Despite the fact that he was still sleeping badly...Harry was managing to have fun for the first time all summer. As long as he was busy, he was happy..." Then follows a bit about the possiblity of being expelled from Hogwarts and sent back to the Dursleys. "...he would not go. He was determined on that. He would come back here to Grimmauld Place and live with Sirius." Your points are well-taken, Laura, but for me the thought that at no time during Harry's summer days at Grimmauld Place did he ask even a casual question or pick up on something Sirius (or Remus) might have said about his parents still strikes me as odd. However, I would not be at all surprised to find that JKR is keeping this in reserve to reveal something in a later book. As in, 'Harry thought about a brief conversation he had with Sirius while staying at Grimmauld Place...' and something in that conversation, which was not important enough to OoP's plot to be revealed at the time, will be brought into the open when suddenly it has a bearing on the plot. > Carol: > Just a word or two to supplement Laura's response, which I agree with. > Harry has been taught not to ask questions by the Dursleys, especially > Uncle Vernon. This lesson has, unfortunately, been reinforced by > Dumbledore and probably by Snape as well. I seem to recall that on > several occasions, he represses the impulse to ask a question. Add to > that the embarrassment of an adolescent addressing an adult he likes > and admires but barely knows, an adult who also happens to have both a > violent and an arrogant streak, and Harry's reticence is entirely > understandable. > > Carol Marianne responds: I agree that Harry's upbringing has taught him not to ask questions. However, I don't agree that Harry has some sort of trepidation regarding Sirius. In GoF, Harry sat trying to decide what adult he could ask about his scar without looking like a fool and causing himself endless embarrassment. Who does he decide to contact? Molly? Arthur? Dumbledore? McGonagal? No, it is Sirius. Plus, over and over in OoP, JKR makes a point of showing how Harry empathises with Sirius. Sure, Harry is shaken by the Pensieve scene. But, that doesn't seem to change his underlying affection for his godfather. So, for me the issue still is that Harry, who has an undeniable desire for family, a supposedly a great curiosity about his parents, and an emotional connection to Sirius, remains silent when at least the occasional opportunity may have presented itself at Grimmauld Place for him to ask questions. Marianne From kcawte at ntlworld.com Tue Dec 9 08:37:14 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 00:37:14 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Severus - was Sexual Temptation References: <5.0.2.1.2.20031209131718.025aedc0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <016e01c3be2f$a5c55820$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 86761 > > Tanya here. No real comment about the rest of the post. But my thoughts > on Severus. For that to be right, either Severus or Lily would be a real late > starter. One held back before starting school, or they would have to be > twins as they were both in the same year at Hogwarts. K While I don't believe the idea at all I have to say - you're wrong. There could be almost an entire year between Severus and Lily's birth and they'd still be in the same school year. It's a little unlikely but as long as the mother was pregnant again within three months of giving birth (and since we don't know anything about wizarding medicine regarding pregnancies I don't know how possible that is) the children could be in the same year. i.e. if the older child is born in September the mother would need to be pregnant by the end of November - leading to an August birth (assuming I've done the maths correctly), both children would then be in the same school year - as with Hermione (September birthday) and Harry (July 31st) K "The Loudest Noise Comes From The Electric Minerva." From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 00:58:49 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 00:58:49 -0000 Subject: How much does Draco know? (Was: Page 305) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86762 "kenney" wrote: > > My Question is, what does this say in the American version of the > > book? How can a wizard mispronounce sorcerer? > > > > It is in the middle of chapt. 16 : "In The Hog's Head" > Someone (Beth?) responded: > The phrase is on page 342 of the American edition. > > "And in our first year," said Neville to the group at large, "he > saved that Sorcerous Stone--" > > "Sorcerer's," hissed Hermione. > > --Cheers! Carol: Funny, I had the same reaction as Kenney when I read "sorcerous" in the American edition: I wonder how Neville had mispronounced "philosopher's" in the UK edition. Now I know. :-) But the scene is interesting for another reason: It shows the general lack of knowledge regarding the sorceror's stone and the Chamber of Secrets among the Hogwarts students. Terry Boot was told by a portrait in Dumbledore's office that Harry killed a (not "the") basilisk with Godric Gryffindor's sword and Harry has to admit rather awkwardly that it's true, and Neville tells the group that Harry saved "that sorcerous stone. . . from You-Know-Who." At least one person, Hannah Abbott, is amazed by this information, which leads me to assume that she at least didn't know the reason for Professor Quirrell's absence the following year. Needless to say, the group doesn't know the truth about Sirius Black, and all they know about Cedric Diggory's murder is what Dumbledore told them at the end of the year. Harry refuses point blank to tell them the details. Of course, they all know by the end of the book that Voldemort really is back and that some of his Death Eaters have been sent (or returned) to Azkaban, but it strikes me that their knowledge of key events involving Harry and Voldemort is very limited. Which brings me to the key question, how much does Draco know? Despite having Lucius for a father, I'll bet it's not much more than the average Hogwarts student. He knew that Sirius Black had (supposedly) betrayed the Potters, but he didn't know the identity of the Heir of Slytherin, and I doubt that he knows about the battle of the wands in the graveyard. There are some things you just don't tell your son if you want him to be a future Death Eater. Carol P.S. I seem to recall that the identity of the veiled witch in that scen is revealed later in the book and it's a man, a spy for Dolores Umbridge. Does anyone remember offhand who it was? C. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 01:13:55 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 01:13:55 -0000 Subject: Wolfsbane and vampires In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86763 "romerskesims" wrote: > > I read a HP quiz book with questions about the 1-3 book (It's a > > Danish book, and I don't think it's available in English), and > there > > was a question saying "What creature does wolfsbane protect > against? > > Yetis, vampires or trolls?" and the answer was "vampires"...but > > where is that mentioned in the books? > > And if it's true, then the vampire!Snape-theory is useless, since > he > > as a vampire wouldn't be able to make the wolfsbane potion, right? > > > > > > "romerskesims" > > > From what I remeber of the books, wolfsbane was only mentioned > twice: when Snape was questioning Harry about his knowledge of > potions and their ingridients and when Lupin explains about how he > and Harry's dad, Sirius and Peter all used to be freinds he says > something to the effect of : When I came to hogwarts the wolfbane > potion hadn't been discovered yet. This fits with my past > expeirinces with wolfsbane. In all the books I've read wolfsbane has > always been used in reference to protection against werewolfs, not > vampires. In fact the only mention of it in reference to vampires > that I recall is in Belle Lugosi's Dracula. I might be wrong, i does > happen, but I'm pretty sure that wolfsbane hasn't been mentioned in > any of the HP books in relation to vampires, so I think that the > makers of that quiz book probably had knowledge of the dracula > connection and used that for the question rather than information > actually found in the books. however, i must admit, aside from my > looking up the two mentions on wolfsbane i recalled earlier, its > been a awhile since I've reread the books, so if I've forgotten a > mention of it, please let me know, cause I too agree that wolfsbane > being a deterant to vampires disproves the Snape is a Vamp theory, > which is definately a theory I support. > Bridget Carol: Bridget's references are the only ones I can recall. Snape doesn't mention what it's used for, only that it's a plant which is also called monkshood and aconite (SS 138).The name, of course, means "wolf poison," which suggests that it would kill werewolves rather than vampires. (Interesting that when Lupin drinks it in his human form it doesn't harm him but somehow tames the about-to-emerge werewolf that it would otherwise kill.) I would happily supply information that it also kills vampires if I could do so, since I don't support the Snape as vampire theory, but as far as I can see, the quiz maker is simply misinformed. Carol, who believes that swooping like a bat is a colorful simile and nothing more From erinellii at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 01:46:21 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 01:46:21 -0000 Subject: How much does Draco know? (Was: Page 305) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86764 > Carol I seem to recall that the identity of the veiled witch in that > scen is revealed later in the book and it's a man, a spy for Dolores > Umbridge. Does anyone remember offhand who it was? C. Erin: It wasn't a spy for Umbridge at all, lol. It was Mundungus Fletcher, keeping an eye on Harry for the Order. Erin From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 01:53:06 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 01:53:06 -0000 Subject: Snape's gang of Slytherins (Looks aren't everything! (was:Re: Sirius / Severus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86765 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marinafrants" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" > wrote: > > Carol: > > Far from being the oldest, he was the youngest. The oldest, and > > presumed leader, was Lucius Malfoy, six years older. Bellatrix, > from > > internal evidence in OoP, was three years older than Snape. The > others > > were probably somewhere in between. > > Nitpick: there's no evidence that Lucius was ever part of Snape's > group. When Sirius names the "gang of Slytherins" that Snape hung > out with (GoF, P. 461, UK), he mentions only Rosier, Wilkes, the > Lestranges and Avery. Aside from the Lestarnges, we have no > information on any of their ages. The fact that Snape walked out of > his OWL exam alone does suggest that most of his friends were in a > different year (otherwise they'd be walking out with him, just as > all the Marauders walked out together), but we don't know if they > were older or younger. > > Marina > rusalka at i... Elsewhere Sirius refers to Snape as Lucius Malfoy's "lap dog," apparently meaning that he was a "little pet" to the much older Malfoy, who would have been in his sixth year when Severus was in his first. Also given what we know of Lucius Malfoy, he was very probably the leader of the gang of Slytherins, with the leadership passing to someone else (Bellatrix?) after he left. (Look at their respective roles in the MoM scene.) I'm speculating, but the speculation is based on canonical evidence. Carol From LinneaLand at CS.com Mon Dec 8 22:45:14 2003 From: LinneaLand at CS.com (thelinnealand) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 22:45:14 -0000 Subject: Arthurs Wound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86766 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Linnea wrote: This sounds to me more like the Basilisk (huge fangs) wound. One Pheonix tear and Arthur would be back on his feet again. Linnea Arthur did not show any "exceptional loyalty" toward DD... Vicky JKR: magic is not a cure all for every ailment, magically induced or otherwise. And, as to why Fawkes didn't swoop in to rescue Arthur (aside from the loyalty thing, which is a good point) a phoenix known to belong to Dumbledore would be pretty hard to hide or explain away, and I am sure that Fudge would have seen that as a sign of Dumbledore's treachery. Meri Linnea responds: I think DD could have asked Fawkes to go to Arthur (who was alone in the basement with an invisibility cloak until DD requested the portrait arouse rescuers) much as he asked Fawkes to deliver a message later. The plot requires the subsequent visit to St Mungos etc.. I guess that what I am on about here is the implausable (to me) way JKR gets us there. It may turn out that Fawkes actually belongs to whomever is Headmaster at HSM (Umbridge not included) and that he will only save or defend the students or staff and as a matter of free will. Linnea From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Tue Dec 9 02:51:31 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 02:51:31 -0000 Subject: Snape's gang of Slytherins (Looks aren't everything! (was:Re: Sirius / Severus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86767 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" > Elsewhere Sirius refers to Snape as Lucius Malfoy's "lap dog," > apparently meaning that he was a "little pet" to the much older > Malfoy, who would have been in his sixth year when Severus was in his > first. Also given what we know of Lucius Malfoy, he was very probably > the leader of the gang of Slytherins, with the leadership passing to > someone else (Bellatrix?) after he left. (Look at their respective > roles in the MoM scene.) I'm speculating, but the speculation is based > on canonical evidence. There certainly seems to be a past relationship between Lucius and Snape, but I think it must've started after Snape's first year (and therefore after Lucius left Hogwarts). I have a lot of trouble imagining a 17-year-old Lucius Malfoy sparing any time or attention for a geeky 11-year-old. I'm sure Malfoy had his own gang of Slytherins, and it may have overlapped with Snape's gang at some point, but I think Snape himself wouldn't have come to Lucius' attention until he got older and did something to establish himself as worth noticing. Maybe Bellatrix introduced him? Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 03:01:42 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 03:01:42 -0000 Subject: Voldie & various DEs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86768 > Christopher suddenstrike wrote: > << Something that struck me as odd about OOP was the suspicously easy > defeat of a group of adult, experienced, evil death eaters by a group > of school children, who, with the possible exception of harry, don't > have anything like as much power. >> > Catlady responded: > Several of them have the excuse of long years in Azkaban that weakened > their magic and their sanity. Carol: Excellent point. I wonder how they maintained their sanity (if we can call it that, taking Bellatrix as an example). It's a wonder they have any wits or power left at all. And maybe those who were in Azkaban aren't even using their own wands, which would have been taken away from them and possibly destroyed. And what about the Dementors? Sirius withstood them by focusing first on his innocence and then on his plan to escape and avenge himself on Peter Pettigrew. What did Bellatrix and Dolohov hold onto? The memory of their own cruelty? Evidently the sick pleasure Bellatrix found in torturing the Longbottoms didn't qualify as happiness or it would have been sucked out of her. And Dolohov, who murdered the Prewetts, seems at least equally evil and cruel. Maybe they nursed their malice for twelve years. The Lestrange brothers, OTOH, may have been so greatly weakened as to be nearly useless. And Rookwood, too, is not at his peak, having recently been Crucio'd for forgetting an important detail relating to the prophecy. Nott, who was not in Azkaban, seems somewhat old and feeble; Malfoy contemptuously orders the others to leave him behind when he falls. So that leaves dim-witted Crabbe, Macnair the beast-slayer, Jugson, about whom we know exactly nothing, and Mulciber, whom I can't remember anything about. How many of them really had their hearts set on stealing the prophecy for a cruel master and battling a bunch of children? Lucius, Bellatrix, Macnair, and Dolohov I would not hesitate to call evil. Probably the Lestrange brothers, too, since they Crucio'd the Longbottoms along with Bellatrix and Barty Jr. But maybe the others are like Regulus and would much rather be home living their own lives, wishing that Voldemort had not returned. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 03:24:42 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 03:24:42 -0000 Subject: Looks aren't everything! (was:Re: Sirius / Severus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86769 serious_schwartz wrote: > Can I add here that the entire pensieve scene is Snape's memory? Harry only > sees the scene through Snape's eyes, and as we all know we tend to color > our own memories. It is true that Remus and Sirius admit to their personality > failings, but it is Snape recalling his view of James and Sirius, the taunts, the > hexing, and so forth. JK is cunning enough to let us think the pensieve scene > is an objective view, but it is not. We can't judge everyone there based on it. > > Just my two cents > > Serious, who is learning to like Snape more than she used to. Carol: Actually, the memory is not revealed from Snape's point of view. Harry is not inside Snape's head, as he's inside Snake/Voldemort's in his dream of trying to kill Arthur Weasley. He sees Snape from the outside, sitting at his desk writing with his nose almost pressed against the parchment and again, hanging upside down with the Marauders laughing and taunting him. Similarly, when he's inside Dumbldore's memories, he sees Dumbledore himself (and sits beside him). He himself is actually inside the memory of the event just as it happened. In other words, a Pensieve memory is much more objective than a normal Muggle memory, which is necessarily subjective and incomplete because we remember only what we perceived, distorted by our own interpretation of the events. There is no interpretation in the Pensieve memory itself. It's only what was actually said and done from the viewpoint of a nonparticipant onlooker. Any interpretation must be done by the onlooker, that is, Harry, not by the objectively rendered event itself. Carol, who hopes this is clear and is glad that you're learning to like Snape From steve at hp-lexicon.org Tue Dec 9 03:30:29 2003 From: steve at hp-lexicon.org (hp_lexicon) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 03:30:29 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall Road and the Elixir of Life ( was The Diary (just where did V get In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86770 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hp_lexicon" wrote: > > In re: Vauxhall Road > > > Steve Vander Ark: > > You might want to take a look... ....a reference to > > another Vauxhall Road which brings up some interesting > > coincidences... > > > > The essay in question is located here: > > http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essay-streets.html > > > > Geoff: > However, before you start re-locating Tom Riddle's orphanage to > Chepstow (I do prefer names like Cas-Gwent and Cas-Newydd to the > mundane English versions), remember that, in canon, the book > carried "the printed name of a newsagent's in Vauxhall Road, LONDON" - > my emphasis. > The intention of this essay is not to suggest that the orphanage is in Chepstow. It is to suggest where Rowling may have gotten her ideas for names of streets. We have the orphanage pegged in London, right down to the actual place, although the real one wasn't a bad place at all. Steve The Lexicon From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 04:13:56 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 04:13:56 -0000 Subject: Trelawny's Prophecy was Re: Did James and Lily know about the prophecy? In-Reply-To: <87.c5657d.2d05449b@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86771 > LauraW: > > I don't think even Professor Trelawny knows about the > prophecies. When she made the second prophecy to Harry, > he tried to ask her about it and she maintained that she > had just dozed off and wouldn't say such an outlandish > thing. She is probably as clueless about them as anyone. Carol: I think you're right. The prophecies come to her but she doesn't know it. She becomes clairvoyant, a receptacle for the prophecy, which is delivered through her, not by her. It reminds me of Plato's Ion, who delivered "inspired" orations that he claimed, IIRC, were messages from the gods. I don't know where Trelawney's predictions come from, but they're not from her own mind and they're not even in her own voice. It's as if she's possessed, but by whom or what, I don't know. (I also don't understand how copies of the prophecy can be captured in crystal to be kept in the DoM or whether new copies can be made of the ones that were destroyed.) > > I think Dumbledore keeps her around not because she might > tell others about the prophecy, but rather because, who > knows, there might actually be a third one forthcoming. > And besides, he is kind even to incompetents. Carol: I think he believes that she rendered him and Harry, maybe the entire WW, a very valuable service with her first real prophecy and rewarded her by giving her the teaching job she was applying for even though she clearly had no talent. After the second real prophecy, he jokes about giving her a raise. When Umbridge fires her, he allows her to remain in Hogwarts, which is her only home, a very kind act that I hope will be rewarded by a third prophecy. > > Which brings me to another observation: it is almost > unkind that Argus Filch is the caretaker of Hogwarts. > When most wizards can clean up muddy footprints with a > simple wave of a wand, poor Filch has to spend hours > scrubbing. Why is it that Dumbledore has him in this > job? Wouldn't he be better off as an accountant? Carol: Even though Squibs can occasionally pass as Muggles (the Weasley's accountant cousin and Mrs. Figg), I can't imagine Filch being part of that world. He speaks to cats and can see Hogwarts; he's a wizard in all but the crucial matter of being able to do magic. He makes up for his frustration by being as mean as possible to the wizard children, even wishing he could torture them into following his lists of rules. I personally think he is where he wants to be, doing what he wants to do. And it's probably a lot safer to have someone like him scrubbing floors at Hogwarts than running around doing dirty work for the Death Eaters. I wonder if that's the life Dumbledore rescued him from. Carol From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Dec 9 04:12:52 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 15:12:52 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vauxhall Road and the Elixir of Life ( was The Diary (just where did V get In-Reply-To: <3FD59EAC.22060.71A1CB@localhost> References: Message-ID: <3FD5E674.16880.18A132F@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 86772 On 9 Dec 2003 at 10:06, Shaun Hately wrote: > On 8 Dec 2003 at 21:54, Geoff Bannister wrote: > > > Geoff: > > However, before you start re-locating Tom Riddle's orphanage to > > Chepstow (I do prefer names like Cas-Gwent and Cas-Newydd to the > > mundane English versions), remember that, in canon, the book > > carried "the printed name of a newsagent's in Vauxhall Road, LONDON" - > > my emphasis. > > Kennington Lane in Kennington (which is part of London) was known for a long > time as Vauxhall Road. I'm not sure when the change occurred - I do know it was > still Vauxhall Road as late as 1942. OK - I've been doing some research into this this afternoon. There *does* appear to have been a Vauxhall Road in London. The name *does* seem to have been in use as late as 1942. And it seems to have been the road either now known as Kennington Road, or Kennington Lane. Now my reasons for these statements - which could be wrong, but I think you'd need to be in London with access to historical maps and local knowledge to show its wrong. On July 17th, 1942, workers demolishing the Vauxhall Baptist Church in Vauxhall Road, London, found a body. It was initially believed to be a victim of the Blitz (the area had been bombed several times in 1940 and 1941) or an old burial from the churchyard, but was later identified as Mrs Rachel Dobkin, the wife of Harry Dobkin who worked at 302 Vauxhall Road, London. He was later hanged for her murder. I don't have access to the initial accounts - at some point I'll be able to get it, but if this is accurate, it does seriously suggest the name Vauxhall Road was still in use in 1942. And I've seen one source on the net that says it is what is now known as Kennington Lane. However, looking at old maps of London, the name Kennington Lane seems to have been in use in 1942 - so I'm wondering if the street could have been known by two different names. This isn't unprecedented in large cities. I've looked at some old maps - and an 1859 map of London (Reynolds Map of Modern London) while Kennington Lane is identified by that name, Kennington Road is also identified as Vauxhall Road. I'm just getting confused here - but I am seeing some indication of the term Vauxhall Road in use in 1942 - best approach, I think, to confirm would be to consult London newspapers about the Dobkin murder. I can probably do that myself at some stage - but it'd probably be a while (it'd require a trip into the State Library). Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From helen at odegard.com Tue Dec 9 04:20:27 2003 From: helen at odegard.com (Helen R. Granberry) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 20:20:27 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sexual Temptaion was: Stereotyping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c3be0b$c6eb4150$6401a8c0@helenw1> No: HPFGUIDX 86773 There are two threads within this thread I am very interested in (Sirius/Remus and the Seduction of Harry Potter), however, I will just talk about the seduction of Harry. Bellatrix... yes, she *is* an overtly sexual character. She is a beautiful (or rather formerly beautiful) woman with all of the classic femme fatale attributes. She oozes raw sexual power. I could see her at one time having designs on James or Sirius or maybe even Remus or Snape. I could see her perhaps trying to seduce Harry (it is something I would dearly love to see her try for the sheer drama of it all), but... I don't think it would a real temptation for him. Harry, going by what we have seen of him so far, would be positively repulsed by Bellatrix. She tortured the Longbottoms and left Neville a virtual orphan. She killed Sirius. She seems to have a 'thing' for Voldemort (ew). She's evil, evil, evil. She's mostly lost her good looks (Azkaban'll do that to ya). I just don't see Harry in the least bit attracted to her in any way whatsoever, other than to perhaps look at an old photograph and note that she was a looker once. A scene where Bella has Harry all tied up and is making sexual moves on him would be incredibly fascinating to watch (heck, I've written something similar myself in fanfic). However, Harry would be completely repulsed by her and everything she stands for even if she were still beautiful. That's Harry. This is a kid who can throw off the Imperious Curse, is immune to the Veela once he figures out what they are all about, and is ambivalent about Fleur when all of the boys are following her around with their tongues hanging out. Harry has a strong will and a firm sense of values -- I don't think he would be seduced or even tempted by Bellatrix. Now... I *do* like the idea of Harry being seduced or at least falling for someone older, more mature. However, I think if anyone will fill this role, it will be Tonks. My gosh... she is the stuff of school boy crushes. She's cool, she's an Auror, she's a shape changer, she's old enough to be wise with the ways of the world, but young enough to still be very attractive/attracted to a sixteen year old boy. She's the baby sitter/young pretty teacher of school boy fantasy. The scene where she is in his bedroom is rife with sexual innuendo -- she admires his broomstick, 'wand still in your jeans? Both buttocks still on?'. Heck, her NAME is rife with sexual innuendo. Tonks reaches out to Harry in almost every scene they are in together and he very dutifully chronicles for us her every change in appearance. Tonks, along with Remus and Moody, has been charged with keeping an eye on Harry over the summer so he'll likely get a chance to get to know her better. Harry/Tonks isn't a dark ship, but it is a slightly taboo ship because of the age difference. However, because Harry is so distanced from normal girls his own age by virtue of his experiences, I think it is a ship that could float -- if only as a school boy crush. Helen, who would love to see the complex issues of emerging adolescent sexuality explored, but knows the most we will ever see in canon are weird dreams, veiled references to broomsticks, chocolate frog cards and magic wands From erinellii at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 04:32:34 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 04:32:34 -0000 Subject: Voldie & various DEs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86774 > > > Carol: And Rookwood, too, is not at his peak, having recently been > Crucio'd for forgetting an important detail relating to the prophecy. Erin: Actually it was Avery, not Rookwood, who was crucio'd. Rookwood, having worked in the ministry, was able to give Voldy the correct info. What's the difference, you might think? Well, because some of us believe that Avery might have been passively trying to obstruct Voldemort. Avery, you might remember, was the DE who was totured in the Graveyard scene after he flung himself at Voldy's feet, begging for forgiveness. And what prompted that foolhardy move? Well, it took place right after Voldemort accused his old DEs of paying "allegiance to another...perhaps that champion of commoners, of Mudbloods and Muggles, Albus Dumbledore" Indeed, many elaborate theories were spun around Avery back in the pre-OoP days, including "Fourth Man" and the many variations thereof, and Elkins' sick little Bellatrix/Avery pairing. I personally believe that if anyone is likely to play Gollum in the series, it will be Avery rather than Wormtail. Erin From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 04:40:29 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 04:40:29 -0000 Subject: Harry's scar and Voldemort (Was: A strange silver instrument) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86775 --> wrote: > > > > > SB: Why in the first book does Harry's lightening scar flash, or > > when he gets his lightening scar flash, when Snap looks at him? > > > > JKR: Snape. > > > > SB: Snape. > > > > JKR:. . . Quirrell had the back of his head > > to Harry at the point when Harry looked at Snape, so someone else > > was looking at Harry through a certain turban. See what I mean? If > > you've read it, you understand, and if you haven't read it, you're > > going what? But that's okay. > > > > (Carol again): > > In other words, the scar hurt because Voldemort was looking at Harry > > through Quirrell's turban. > > > > Carol > > Which is basically what I said; after reading PS/SS we are meant to > think it is Voldemort underneath Quirrell's turban that causes > Harry's scar to hurt. Of course JKR saying that this is *in fact* > what happened does change things. Carol: I think you've missed the point of my quotation. The child thought that "Snap" caused the pain and JKR corrected him/her. We know now, after the fact, that Snape didn't cause the scar to hurt, but we're meant to *think*, as the child reader did, that he's the cause. Snape is the red herring villain throughout the first book. We're not meant to think that Voldemort is in Quirrell's head. How could we possibly imagine such a thing only a few chapters into the book, when all we know is that Voldemort killed Harry's parents and we've barely met Snape and Quirrell? If we were, by some rare understanding of how JKR's mind works, to figure out the ending, the entire book would be spoiled. Why would JKR want that? Or do you mean that on a second reading, after we've learned all about Quirrellmort, we're meant to know that Voldemort is looking at Harry at that point? If so, I don't see why you're bringing it up, because by that time we know the real cause of the pain. Your quotations from GoF seem to relate to a different argument. They appear at a point in the story long after we know that Voldemort, not Snape, caused the pain. Maybe I'm missing your point as you seem to have missed mine. If so, please accept my apologies. Carol From erinellii at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 04:52:15 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 04:52:15 -0000 Subject: Sexual Temptaion was: Stereotyping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86776 > > Erin wrote: >> > I seriously doubt we'll ever see this (seduction of Harry and/or Ron) happen, though. Bellatrix is married. > > Mandy: > Somehow I just don't see the *little* of fact the Bellatrix being > married has ever stopped her from seducing and sleeping with other > men. (Or women, for that matter). Bellatrix is 100% her own woman and a Dark one at that, very dark. I don't think she considers 'Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery' as anything more than a joke. Either her husband loves it, or if he doesn't, he accepts with it anyway. He simply has no choice, the poor dear. Erin again: Well, not to be rude or anything, and I know that this is a popular reading of Bellatrix, but you do realize that there is absolutely no canon for it, right? The only broken marriage we've actually seen in canon was that of Tom Riddle's parents, and Tom Sr. didn't run off with another woman; he moved back in with his own parents. So there's no evidence whatsoever that infidelity will ever be an issue in the books. With that said, I must admit that I can now visualize a scene where Bella's husband has been killed (perhaps by Harry) and she's whispering "You took care of Rudolphus for me, now claim your reward..." before she disrobes. Gaaah! Sick mind, I know. Erin From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 04:59:46 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 04:59:46 -0000 Subject: THe nature of the Unforgivables(was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bang!You're dead.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86777 > > Angel: But this raises an interesting question. In Moody's lesson he > talks about using AK, and said he wouldn't get a nosebleed if the whole > class did it. If Neville had had the torture of his parents uppermost > in his mind and all the hatred at Crouch, could he have killed Moody, > at that point, because of it? > > > Carol: I don't think the identity of the person you're aiming AK at > matters--only the anger and hatred of the person casting the spell. > the Death Eaters undoubtedly AKd anonymous Muggles and some of the DEs > > tried to AK Harry's friends in the MoM without knowing who they were. > > Barty Jr. if he had known who he was and what he had done...remember, > > Harry couldn't successfully Crucio Bellatrix, who had just killed > > Sirius and was gloating about it. The same thing would have happened > > to Neville if he had tried to AK Imposter!Moody knowing the full > truth. > Entropy: > It might be helpful to think of the Crucio or AK curses as similar to > producing a patronus. Harry's experience with the patronus has been > written about extensively in the books, so it's a good point of > reference. Three things are needed to successfully produce a patronus: > > 1. Power. We know that it usually takes a fairly powerful, full-grown > wizard to produce a patronus. Harry, whose powers have been magnified > by Voldemort's attempt on his life, has the magical ability to produce > it. > 2. Good thoughts. Happy memories must be recalled. > 3. Practice. A great deal of practice and effort in learning to use > the spell are necessary as well. > > The Crucio and AK spells could be thought of as anti-patronus. The > power and practice are necessary elements, but instead of good > thoughts, the wizard must produce and direct a great deal of hatred > and evil as well. Given that Harry has an abundance of both hatred > (at the DE's and Voldemort for the death of his parents and now > Sirius) and evil (supposedly as a result of Voldemort's failed AK at > him), Crouch!Moody was probably underestimating Harry when he said no > one in the class could successfully AK him. With a bit of work, Harry > seems to have all of the elements of a wicked AK in him. Carol: I like your three steps, which would apply to the Imperius Curse as well. As for Harry having the power to use them at some point, I'm sure he will--all the more reason not to use them unless he wants to become another Voldemort. He needs to emphasize the differences between himself and Tom Riddle, not the similarities. The best thing that could happen to Harry would be to lose all the powers that came to him from Voldemort and be left with those he inherited from his parents--transfiguration, charms, and flying/quidditch. Carol From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Dec 9 05:01:25 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 05:01:25 -0000 Subject: Arthurs Wound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86778 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "thelinnealand" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Linnea wrote: > > This sounds to me more like the Basilisk (huge fangs) wound. > One Pheonix tear and Arthur would be back on his feet again. > Linnea responds: > I think DD could have asked Fawkes to go to Arthur (who was alone in the basement with an invisibility cloak until DD requested the portrait arouse rescuers) much as he asked Fawkes to deliver a message later. < This reminds me of a question that is often asked about The Lord of the Rings: why couldn't Gandalf get the Eagles to fly Frodo all the way to Mt. Doom? The answer according to a Tolkien scholar was that the eagles were mystical, almost divine messengers, not a taxi service. I think Rowling wants to invoke the same aura around Fawkes. She can't have him used too often for mundane purposes. It may also be that invoking the Headmaster's name at Hogwarts has some special power to summon aid that can't be used elsewhere. Dumbledore says, "Help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who ask for it." Further, if Fawkes had shown up while Voldemort was still about, lurking in the snake's mind, Voldemort would have known that Dumbledore was aware of the link with Harry. That's not information Dumbledore wanted to give away. Pippin From DMCourt11 at cs.com Tue Dec 9 05:15:15 2003 From: DMCourt11 at cs.com (bookraptor11) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 05:15:15 -0000 Subject: Pensieve/objectivity (was:Looks aren't everything!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86779 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Carol: > Actually, the memory is not revealed from Snape's point of view. Harry > is not inside Snape's head, as he's inside Snake/Voldemort's in his > dream of trying to kill Arthur Weasley. He sees Snape from the > outside, sitting at his desk writing with his nose almost pressed > against the parchment and again, hanging upside down with the > Marauders laughing and taunting him. Similarly, when he's inside > Dumbldore's memories, he sees Dumbledore himself (and sits beside > him). He himself is actually inside the memory of the event just as it > happened. In other words, a Pensieve memory is much more objective > than a normal Muggle memory, which is necessarily subjective and > incomplete because we remember only what we perceived, distorted by > our own interpretation of the events. There is no interpretation in > the Pensieve memory itself. It's only what was actually said and done > from the viewpoint of a nonparticipant onlooker. Any interpretation > must be done by the onlooker, that is, Harry, not by the objectively > rendered event itself. > > Carol, who hopes this is clear and is glad that you're learning to > like Snape Donna Since a Pensieve memory is much more objective, I wonder if that's the main reason Dumbledore keeps one. He tells Harry in GOF that it helps when he has so many thoughts and memories crammed in his mind, and a few paragraphs later that it helps him spot patterns and links (GOF p.597 paperback). What he doesn't tell Harry is that the objectivity helps him to see things as they really happened, not filtered through his perceptions and prejudices, making those patterns and links more accurate. I wonder if Snape has used a Pensieve before, not just because of Harry's occlumency lessons. Perhaps Dumbledore lent him one so he could sort out his bad memories, seperate what's true from how he remembers it. Unfortunately I have a sad picture of Snape watching the scene Harry saw (and similar ones) over and over, feeding his anger, telling himself, "it's not just my viewpoint, they really were *total* bastards!" Donna From zanelupin at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 05:48:08 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 05:48:08 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter Seven, The Ministry of Magic Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86780 There is a lot of detail in this chapter. I left in as much as possible without making it too long. It's still too long. I hope it suffices. Questions appear at the end of the summary. Summary: Harry wakes up at 5:30 on the day of his hearing. He dresses and goes to the kitchen, occupied by Mr. and Mrs. Weasley, Sirius, Lupin, and Tonks, all talking and all dressed with the exception of Mrs. Weasley, who immediately sets about making breakfast for Harry. Harry tries to eat the toast and marmalade she places before him as she fusses over his shirt but he finds eating impossible. Mr. Weasley tells Tonks he'll cover her mysterious duty the next night. Mr. Weasley tells Harry the hearing will take place in Amelia Bones' office. The adults do their best to assure Harry that everything will be fine and offer him advice as Mrs. Weasley unsuccessfully attempts to control Harry's hair. Mr. Weasley decides it'stime to go, a little early, but he feels it's better than waiting around Grimmauld Place. The adults offer Harry a few more words of encouragement and a hug from Mrs. Weasley. Then Harry and Mr. Weasley leave. Mr. Weasley usually apparates to work but obviously this is not possible as Harry is there. Additionally Mr. Weasley tells Harry he thinks it will make a better impression if they reach the Ministry in a non-magical fashion given the nature of the offense of which Harry is accused. Mr. Weasley marvels over the broken automatic ticket machines in a small Underground station and Harry buys their tickets. Once on the train, Mr. Weasley constantly checks the map to see they're going to the right stop. He knows the directions although he admits to never using the Visitor's Entrance. After getting off the Underground they move away from the imposing buildings, finally traveling a road with shabby offices, a pub, and an overflowing dumpster. This is not what Harry had expected for the Ministry of Magic. Mr. Weasley ushers Harry into an old telephone box and follows Harry in. Despite Harry's concerns Mr. Weasley seems to know what he's doing. He picks up the telephone receiver and dials, 6-2-4-4- 2. [MAGIC, if you haven't already heard ] Mr. Weasley announces them. Harry takes the visitor's badge and pins it to his tee shirt as instructed. The silver badge reads, "Harry Potter, Disciplinary Hearing." The telephone booth sinks slowly into the ground. When it finally stops Harry gets his first glimpse into the Ministry of Magic. The hall is long and splendid with a polished dark wood floor and a peacock blue ceiling with gleaming golden symbols that change. The walls are a dark wood with gilded fireplaces along the hall. On the left side witches and wizards arrive every few seconds and on the right they're lined up for departure, the Floo Network at work. Halfway down the hall is a fountain with golden statues in the middle of a pool. A wizard and witch are surrounded by an adoring goblin, centaur, and house-elf. As Mr. Weasley directs Harry away from the fountain, Harry notices the sign, "All Proceeds from the Fountain of Magical Brethren will be given to St. Mungo's Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries," and desperately promises ten galleons if he's not expelled from Hogwarts. They reach a bored Security Guard named Eric, who passes a long golden rod up and down Harry. Harry then hands over his wand and the guard places it on an instrument that looks like a set of scales with only one dish. Eric reads the piece of parchment that pops out, describing Harry's wand. He hands the wand back to Harry and finally notices to whom he is speaking. Before Eric has a chance to comment, Mr. Weasley ushers Harry to the gate at the end of the hall. They enter one of the lifts beyond the gate and begin their ascent. As they reach each level, the cool, female voice announces what can be found there. Level Seven: Department of Magical Games and Sports?British and Irish Quidditch league Headquarters, Official Gobstones Club, and Ludicrous Patent Office. Level Six: Department of Magical Transport?Floo Network Authority, Broom Regulatory Control, Portkey Office, Apparation Test Center. At this point, paper airplanes zoom into the lift. Mr. Weasley tell Harry they're interdepartmental memos used instead of messier owls. Level Five: Department of International Magical Cooperation? International Magical Trading Standards Body, International Magical Offices of Law, International Confederation of Wizards, British Seat. Level Four: Department of Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures?Beast, Being, and Spirit Divisions, Goblin Liaison Office, and Pest Advisory Bureau. Level Three: Department of Magical Accidents and Catastrophes? Accidental Magic Reversal Squad, Obliviator Headquarters, Muggle- Worthy Excuse Committee. Level Two: Department of Magical Law Enforcement?Improper Use of Magic Office, Auror Headquarters, Wizengamot Administration Services. Harry's hearing is to take place on this floor. Mr. Weasley's office is also there. Although they are underground the windows show sunlight streaming in. Magical Maintenance is responsible for what sort of weather the Ministry experiences. They meet Kingsley Shacklebolt in Auror Headquarters, a large open area full of cubicles. Kingsley and Mr. Weasley pretend they barely know one another and Mr. Weasley steps on Harry's foot to prevent him from greeting Kingsley. The three go to Kingsley's cubicle, which is covered in clippings and photos of Sirius. Kingsley informs Mr. Weasley Sirius Black may be using his old motorcycle and therefore needs information about flying vehicle sightings. In between these louder exchanges, Mr. Weasley and he hold a whispered conversation in which Kingsley hands a magazine article over for Sirius and Mr. Weasley invites him to dinner. Harry and Mr. Weasley continue their trip until they reach a dead end with a broom cupboard and Mr. Weasley's small office, crammed with two desks and overflowing with papers. Among the items Harry notes, there is a photograph of the Weasley family that Percy has apparently walked out of. Mr. Weasley reads from the copy of _The Quibbler_ that Kingsley gave him. Before Harry finds out what is so amusing, a memo regarding another occurrence of regurgitation toilets makes its way into the office. Anti Muggle Pranksters are to blame and this is the third such incident. Perkins, who shares the Misuse of Muggle Artifacts office, arrives to explain an urgent message arrived ten minutes ago with a change of venue and time for Harry's hearing. It's now at Eight o'clock in Courtroom Ten. Mr. Weasley and Harry take off running for they are already late. Once back inside the lift, Mr. Weasley keeps impatiently jabbing at the number Nine, thinking aloud that Courtrooms haven't been used in years and wonders why the hearing will be there. At the atrium level, Harry again glimpses the golden statue in the fountain and a sallow skinned wizard named Bode enters the lift before it continues. He stares at Harry. The cool voice says, "Department of Mysteries," with no further elaboration unlike the other floors. Mr. Weasley and Harry speed up the bare corridor with only a plain black door set at the end. Harry expects to go through the door but Mr. Weasley pulls him to the left, down a flight of stairs. Finally they reach the bottom and head down yet another corridor. They reach Courtroom Ten. Mr. Weasley points Harry inside. Harry asks if he's coming and Mr. Weasley replies that he's not allowed. Harry opens the door and steps inside. Questions: 1. The golden symbols on the ceiling in the Ministry?What are they and why do they change? 2. Is there any significance to the beings represented in the Fountain of Magical Brethren? Why are the centaur, goblin, and house-elf described as looking adoringly at the wizard and witch? 3. Harry checks in at security. How long do you think it takes security to catch anyone who doesn't check in? What do you think happens to those folks? 4. The security guard waves a golden rod over Harry's body. What is its function? 5. The Ludicrous Patent Office is on Level Seven of the Ministry. What might constitute a "ludicrous" patent? Where is the not-so- ludicrous patent office? Why is this office on the same level as the Department of Magical Games and Sports, where it doesn't seem to fit in as the other offices listed on other levels fit in with the Department named? 6. Looking at the Department of Magical Transport, can we assume that the only legal, magical means of transportation are the Floo Network, Brooms, Portkeys, and Apparation? Or is it that these are the only means that are regulated in any way (unlike thestrals, for instance)? 7. How do the paper airplane memos work? Are they created so that once a memo is folded, it will know where to go? Must one tell it where to go? Is the layout of the Ministry included in whatever charm is used on the paper, so no direction is needed? 8. How many wizards does it take to come up with a muggle-worthy excuse? 9. Is the enchantment placed on the windows on Level Two similar to the one placed on the Great Hall ceiling at Hogwarts? 10. Why must Kingsley and Mr. Weasley pretend they don't know one another? Yes, it's to keep the Order a secret, but would it be so out of place for the two to be friends? 11. Speaking of Mr. Weasley's job, it seems indeed that the Misuse of Muggle Artifacts office is held in low esteem, as the office is smaller than the broom closet across the hall. Why is his office so small and why do only two people work there? Is the offense of misusing muggle artifacts so rare or so insignificant that it warrants little attention? 12. In Mr. Weasley's office, Harry notices Percy has walked out of the family photo. How can a photograph mimic a behavior like Percy turning his back on the family unless it was already in his nature to do so? How does Harry know Percy was in the photograph in the first place? 13. We now know that the Department of Mysteries is beyond the black door at the end of the corridor that Harry and Mr. Weasley run down to get to Courtroom Ten. Harry expects to go through the door when Mr. Weasley leads him to the left of the door down the stairs. Does Harry expect to go through the door because he doesn't see the passage to the left, or does it really have to do with the dreams he's already having, and he wants to go through the door even if he doesn't recognize it yet? KathyK NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/67817 and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/85829 From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 06:18:58 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 06:18:58 -0000 Subject: Arthurs Wound In-Reply-To: <001601c3bdc3$f8d8b550$89e6fea9@sabrinazimmer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86781 LinneaLand wrote: The snake at the MoM gave AW a wound that was so large they were trying stitches to help it close. Not the usual snakebite. This sounds to me more like the Basilisk (huge fangs) wound that Harry got in CS rather than something a snake like Nagini (sp) might make. That Arthur didn't end up petrified might be just luck. I am bugged about this whole scene largely because Dumbledore didn't just ask Fawkes to go to Arthur and save him as he did Harry in CS. One Pheonix tear and Arthur would be back on his feet again, problem solved and no one the wiser. Vicky responded: When Fawkes saved Harry DD said something (and now I'm trying to translate from Dutch) about Harry showing exceptional loyalty to DD. Otherwise Fawkes would not have come to his rescue. So I assume that even though Arthur fights the good fight and is in the Order, he did not show any "exceptional loyalty" toward DD. Meri responded: Also it seems to me that JKR makes a big deal of pointing out that magic is not a cure all for every ailment, magically induced or otherwise, And, as to why Fawkes didn't swoop in to rescue Arthur (aside from the loyalty thing, which is a good point) a rather large and brightly colored phoenix known to belong to Dumbledore would be pretty hard to hide or explain away, and I am sure that Fudge would have seen that as a sign of Dumbledore's treachery. Sabrina responded: I also think, please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't DD say something to Harry about how he can't *force* Fawkes to shed tears? At the end of GoF it is Fawkes who goes to Harry, without any prodding from DD (at least that we know of) and perhaps he just decided that Arthur wasn't that badly hurt or traumatized that he needed his help. Or perhaps Fawkes has just a special affection for Harry. Carol: Regarding the basilisk idea, I don't think anything so huge could have been transported to the MoM (Accio basilisk!) and in any case, aren't they rare creatures? The one we know of was already dead. Also, Arthur would have been dead before he was found. I think it's much more likely that Voldemort possessed Nagini just long enough for her to bite Arthur or even transformed himself into a snake (which I think he's been doing all along--many transformations had made him virtually unrecognizable, he looks snakelike, etc.). Regarding Dumbledore's not sending Fawkes the Phoenix to Arthur, I think that Fawkes came to Harry (without actually being sent by Dumbledore) because of a previously arranged spell Dumbledore had set up to protect Hogwarts and Harry while he was away. As he leaves Hagrid's hut with Lucius Malfoy, Fudge, and poor arrested Hagrid, Dumbledore says, for the benefit of the boys hidden under the invisibility cloak and Harry in particular, "However, you will find that I have only *truly* left this school when none here are loyal to me. You will find that help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who ask for it" (CoS 263-64, Am. ed.) Harry, of course, is at Hogwarts and is in great need when Fawkes comes to his aid (though he has not yet been bitten by the basilisk). He first demonstrates great loyalty to Dumbledore ("Sorry to disappoint you and all that, but the greatest sorceror in the world is Albus Dumbledore. . . . Even when you were strong, you didn't dare try and take over at Hogwarts. . . ," 314). And when Tom retaliates with "Dumbledore's been driven out of this castle by the mere *memory* of me!" Harry replies with "He's not as gone as you might think!" (315). Though not exactly a request for help, the words express his wish that Dumbledore were there to help him, and that wish activates the spell that Dumbledore has cast not only on Fawkes but on the Sorting Hat and the sword. (Alternatively, he may have told Fawkes to bring those two items with him when the spell was activated. Either way, Fawkes's appearance is prearranged by Dumbledore to help Harry fight the basilisk.) Arthur Weasley was not at Hogwarts expressing loyalty to Dumbledore, so the spell (assuming that it were still in effect three years later) would not apply to him. Dumbledore knew that Harry's encounter with the basilisk was inevitable and did what he could to help him. He had no way of knowing that Arthur would also encounter a giant snake. Carol From astrid at netspace.net.au Tue Dec 9 08:06:34 2003 From: astrid at netspace.net.au (Astrid Wootton) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 19:06:34 +1100 Subject: The diary and Lucius's many reasons Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86782 Diana gives a range of excellent reasons why Lucius ? Diana chose that SPECIFIC time to send the diary to Hogwarts for several reasons.? Snip The first bonus was his idea to plant the diary on Ginny Weasley.? Snip The second bonus was the fact that Voldemort could, essentially, be 'reborn' in a new, strong, youthful body.? Snip The third bonus was the very possible death of Harry Potter Snip The fourth bonus was the removal of Albus Dumbledore as headmaster of Hogwarts.? Snip I wonder if Lucius ever found out about or even suspected Riddle's change of plans once he began to come out of the diary?? (sorry to chop out all the elaboration of these points.) Astrid The third bonus, about Harry, was surely the key one as discussed by Lucius, presumably to others, in front of Dobby. He certainly got the impression that the whole plan was an attempt on Harry?s life. It may be that the bonus of Ginny and her family, DD and V himself did not figure in the initial planning. Astrid [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 08:19:27 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 08:19:27 -0000 Subject: Pensieve objectivity (was : Looks aren't everything!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86783 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" wrote: > "serious_schwartz" wrote: > we tend to color our own memories. > Del wrote: > *I* am of the opinion that a Pensieve scene is perfectly, even *magically*, objective. Valky: I am 100% absolutely *for* the affected penseive theory. I will tell you why . The memory Harry first visits in Dumbledores penseive is of Dumbledore *sitting juror*. Personally I cannot imagine a more objective combination of Dumbledore and jury duty. Hence on this occassion Harry experienced as much an even tempered and calm perception of the situation as we can imagine Dumbledore is able to muster. I assume most listees would agree that is quite a lot. As I recall Harry came from this pensieve visit feeling quite normal, not so with the Memory from Snapes childhood. In Snapes memory we go to the exact opposite extreme. We see Snape, our least rational and calm character in a situation where he is inflamed to the most possible instability we can imagine Snape might muster. Again most listees would agree, yes? Quite a lot? As I recall Harry came from this experience beyond perturbed. His reaction was extreme deep and obsessive. Very Snape like behaviour I purport. Whereas after witnessing a father condemning his pleading young son to the doom of Azkaban Harry emerged with a DD like reaction of calm curiousity. Yes I am saying that not only is the pensieve affected but also the veiwer. The memory visiter is temporarily filled with the emotional state of the memory. The canon strongly suggests it to me. As well in a final supporting statement we must remember that memory is MORE than the image. It IS also the emotion, the touch, the odour and the sound. Emotion is a part of memory and is rightly recorded along with all other sensory perception. It MUST be present in the pensieve. Any objectors? From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 08:53:28 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 08:53:28 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter Seven, The Ministry of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86784 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > There is a lot of detail in this chapter. I left in as much as > possible without making it too long. It's still too long. I > hope it suffices. Questions appear at the end of the summary. > > Summary: > > ...edited... > They enter one of the lifts beyond the gate and begin their ascent. > As they reach each level, the cool, female voice announces what can > be found there. > > Level Seven: Department of Magical Games and Sports? ... and > Ludicrous Patent Office. > Level Six: Department of Magical Transport? > > ...edited... > > Level Five: Department of International Magical Cooperation? > Level Four: Department of ... of Magical Creatures? > Level Three: Department of Magical Accidents and Catastrophes? > Level Two: Department of Magical Law Enforcement > bboy_mn: I've alway found the lifts and the floor structure to be very confusing. They ascended in the lift, yet the floor numbers descend; it took a while to reason out why that was. The whole Ministry appears to be underground, and my mind instinctively sees the various foors as sublevels, and that image seems to hold true as sublevels are in ascending order as you go deeper into the ground. Yet the internal appearance of the stucture is that of an above ground building. If they were trying to emulate a normal windowed above ground building then the floor levels should have ascended as the lift ascended. They appears to be trying to emulate a muggle building with 7 upper floors, a ground floor (atrium), and two sublevels. In a muggle building, starting from the lowest to the highest would be SubLevel2, SL1, GF, Floor1, F2, F3, F4, F5, F6, and F7; ten levels in all. But that's not how the floors are designated. Can anyone confirm how floors and subfloors are numbered in the UK? Are we seeing the floors numbered as if they were all underground sublevels? If so, does that put the Dept of Mysteries on Level 9 or Sublevel 1? > > Questions: > > 1. The golden symbols on the ceiling in the Ministry?What are > they and why do they change? > bboy_mn: Lots of people have speculated about his, but my personal feeling is that they are symbolic/decorations and not functional. The symbols are only mentioned on the ceiling of the Atrium, and the description of the whole room as well as the ceiling seems ornate. Like all goverment building, the first main floor is intended to impress visitors. > 2. Is there any significance to the beings represented in the > Fountain of Magical Brethren? Why are the centaur, goblin, and > house-elf described as looking adoringly at the wizard and witch? > bboy_mn: I think the significance is that these are the only intelligent sentient humanoid creatures in the wizard world. So this is a gathering of the highest intelligence lifeforms. Since the statues were made by wizards, they naturally placed themselves in the postion of the highest lifeform, which has been a consistent and continual occurance for Europeans since the beginning of time. > 3. Harry checks in at security. How long do you think it takes > security to catch anyone who doesn't check in? What do you think > happens to those folks? > bboy_mn: Security doesn't seem that tight. Like most public buildings, you have to walk past some type of security, but they are invariably bored and underpaid with a primary interest in doing their routine duties and going home at the end of the day. They really don't have a strong motivation to go out of their way to chase bad guys. In this sense, I think JKR is just playing on a stereotype of security guards everywhere. > 4. The security guard waves a golden rod over Harry's body. What > is its function? > bboy_mn: I see this as the equivalent of passing through the metal detectors at the airport. Again, I think JKR is making us comfortable with her world by filling it with familiar images and icons. JKR has tried to construct a wizard world the live in parallel with the muggle world, and while she has kept them separate, she has also integrated them in away that make the existance of the wizard world believable. Platform 9-3/4 at King's Cross Station, St. Mungo's in a non-descript department store, The Leaky Cauldron on Charring Cross Road; all these common reference points serve to stimulate our imaginations, and allow us to fully believe in something that is highly unlikely. At to it functional use, I think it is amoung other things a metal detector which prevents dangerous wizards from bringing muggle weapons into the Ministry. It could also sniff our poisons, Dark Potions, and other dangerous and unauthorized items. > 5. The Ludicrous Patent Office .... What might constitute a > ludicrous" patent? Where is the not-so-ludicrous patent office? > Why is this office ...(in)... the Department of Magical Games and > Sports, ...? > bboy_mn: If you look up the latin roots of the word 'ludicrous', you discover that it is indeed related to sports. (Am. Heritage 3rd Ed) "From Latin 'ludicrus', sportive, from 'ludus', game, with its derivative 'ludere', to play". Also from 'Leid' - "To play, jest". > 6. Looking at the Department of Magical Transport, ... the only > legal, magical ... transportation are the Floo ..., Brooms, > Portkeys, and Apparation? Or is it that these are the only means > that are regulated...? > bboy_mn: I think this is the department that regulates 'created' magical methods ot transport. Natural method like flying magical creatures would not be requlated here. To the best of my knowledge Floo, Brooms, Portkeys, and Apparition are the only legal methods of wizard enchanted travel. But, as we have seen, flying carpets are banned because they are charmed muggle artifacts. I suspect there are other banned methods of magical transport that are controlled and regulated by other departments. One could speculate that Apparation is a 'natural' method of travel, but it is clearly dangerous to wizards, and given that fact, would need to be regulated. > 7. How do the paper airplane memos work? ... Must one tell it > where to go? .... > bboy_mn: One could ask, how do owls know where to go? Owls logically don't speak English and I doubt that they can read, so, as always, the answer is, they are magic. Owls and magical paper airplanes are enchanted either natually in the case of an owl, or by assorted spells in the case of the planes. So, just like with owls, you write the name of the receiver of the memo on the paper, tap it with your wand, and say 'take this to Arthur Weasley', and the paper airplane memo enchantment takes over from there. > 8. How many wizards does it take to come up with a muggle-worthy > excuse? > bboy_mn: Given wizard's poor, warped and distorted knowledge of the muggle world, I would say it probably takes quite a few. Either that or there are some extremely talented muggle experts in the Minstry. However, given that Mr. Weasley has a job that deals with the muggle world, one could consider him an expert. That would imply that it take a committee a great deal of effort to come up with muggle-worth excuses. > 9. Is the enchantment placed on the windows on Level Two similar to > the one placed on the Great Hall ceiling at Hogwarts? > bboy_mn: Not quite; I'm sure it's a similar spell, perhaps even based on the same charm, but the Hogwarts ceiling emulates the real world, whereas, the Ministry windows are programable; they show whatever the Maintenance Department decides they will show. > 10. Why must Kingsley and Mr. Weasley pretend they don't know one > another? Yes, it's to keep the Order a secret, but would it be > so out of place for the two to be friends? > bboy_mn: They don't pretent to not know one another, they pretent to be nothing more than co-workers. Like all co-workers, they would be on friendly terms but not necessarily friends. Also, keep in mind that Kingsley is in the premier postion in Law Enforcement; he is one of the best of the best. Mr. Weasley on the other hand, is the lowest of the low with regard to his preceived job status. He's like the dog catcher of law enforcement. Also, Mr. Weasley's status at the Ministry is pretty shake. He has generally made it know that he is a strong supporter of Dumbledore's and that he has faith in what Harry says. That makes him a suspect, and someone who's actions would be closely watched. So, it wouldn't be good for anyone at the Minstry to seem too friendly or sympathetic toward Arthur because that would likely draw close scrutiny to them. > 11. ... Mr. Weasley's job, ... seems ... held in low esteem, .... > Why is his office so small... only two people work there? > Is the offense of misusing muggle artifacts so rare or so > insignificant that it warrants little attention? > bboy_mn: Remember there are other departments that deal with the interaction of muggles and magic; Accidental Magic Reversal Squad, Obliviators, etc.... Mr. Weasley deals specically in illegally charmed muggle objects. Give that in my many years of life, I have yet to come across a charmed muggle object, I think it's safe to say it is moderately rare occurance. In many cases, muggles would think that they are just malfunctioning common objects; like the exploding toilets. In real life, toilets occassionally DO explode, so again, most muggles would see it as merely malfuncitoning, not magically charmed. So Mr. Weasley would concentrate on finding the perpetrator and reversing the charmed objects, rather than dealing directly with the muggles. If there was serious muggle interaction required, Magic Reversal and Obliviators would be called in. If there was a need to confront a perpetrator, magical law enforcement would be called in. > 12. In Mr. Weasley's office, Harry notices Percy has walked out > of the family photo. How can a photograph mimic a behavior like > Percy turning his back on the family unless it was already in his > nature to do so? How does Harry know Percy was in the photograph in > the first place? > bboy_mn: I've written long posts on the nature of photos and magical art. My impression is that photos are like little stage plays. The subjects are actors playing out a context. Illustration, Harry is pictured in the paper as someone undesirable and untrustworthy, and the photo automatically takes on that context; dark, sinister, shifty-eyed, devious. The same photo is used in an article where Harry is portrayed positively, and Harry is smiling, handsome, and confident. The photo may have sensed or overheard the Percy/Family situation, and has automatically taken on that context. The photo-actor Percy has taken on the context of the real life Percy. > 13. ... the Department of Mysteries is beyond the black > door at the end .... Harry expects to go through the door when > Mr. Weasley leads him to the left of the door down the stairs. Does > Harry expect to go through the door because he doesn't see the > passage to the left, or does it really have to do with the dreams > he's already having, and he wants to go through the door even if > he doesn't recognize it yet? > > KathyK bboy_mn: I think it is a combination. First, he doesn't know where he is going much less where he is at, so he is following the most obvious clues. He enters the hallway and his sight is drawn to a vaguely familiar door at the end. He is attracted to the door and make the quick assumption that this is where they are going. But given the tension and urgency of the moment, he has no time to react or analyse the door. Before it even really registers in his conscious mind, Mr. Weasley has already pushed him down the hall to the side. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From derek at rhinobunny.com Tue Dec 9 00:33:04 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 00:33:04 -0000 Subject: Harry and Neville: Brothers? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86785 Okay, a bizarre thought just hit me. With all the emphasis on twins in the HP books, and with both Harry and Neville born on the same day, is there any chance they are twins, and that fact is being hidden from them? I've no canon to support this, of course, but it would certainly be an interesting twist... - Derek From teshara at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 02:06:32 2003 From: teshara at yahoo.com (Chelle) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 02:06:32 -0000 Subject: Some discrepancies In-Reply-To: <000701c3bd65$adc94060$0bf616d5@netcabo.pt> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86786 Is there any date given for when the Tapestry was actually made? If Sirius and his generation were on the bottom, that doesn't give much room for future generationg to be woven in, would it? And if the Weasleys were really that unworthy and blood traitors, wouldn't there be a large spot where they were wiped out if the tapestry had been woven hundreds of years ago? They ARE related to the Blacks, that means at one time they were interrelated. Are we supposed to believe they were related pre- Hogwarts founding and they remember, even if they don't recognise it? Not really practical. As for Mr. and Mrs. Black being related... Even if they are, there are cultures that practice arranged marriage ONLY to members inside their family. I have seen it. They really do it. For generations. It's wierd, but from what I saw their kids were normal, happy, and healthy. To each their own. The thing is, the Blacks are British, and I don't recall it ever being a part of THEIR culture. My parents have been married 40 years. My moms Uncle was also called Uncle by my dad after they were married, and they were best friends. I don't know if I contributed anything by this, but I felt like posting today :) ~ Chelle From groups at e-dennis.net Tue Dec 9 04:01:57 2003 From: groups at e-dennis.net (Dennis) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 23:01:57 -0500 Subject: Down With Bumble-bore! (plus unfounded speculation on Books 6,7) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86787 Part I: Bumblebore Take note: Bumble-bore *not* Dumbledore. I say "Bumblebore" because that's what Dumbledore was in OotP. First the bore: He was barely involved in anything written in Book 5 (understandably as his own mistakes required he avoid Harry, and the study of politics presented requires his inaction in other matters.) I keep hearing about him being the most powerful wizard in the world, but where's the action? There have been hints at the ends of both GoF and OotP when magical prowess seems to exude from him, but those hints are the only taste we've had of his abilities. I was quite disappointed to see so little of him in Book 5, though I realize it will undoubtedly be necessary to the septology plot as the next books come. How boring... Next, Bumbledore was sloppy, making a mistake by not telling Harry what he needed to know, and then compounding the problem by not even providing a reason for Occlumency. It is incomprehensible to me that he didn't hear of Harry's dream of the Dept. of Mysteries door from Snape, so why wouldn't he tell Harry, even by messenger, something like, "No matter what the situation seems, you must never go there. Ne-ver. That is exactly what the enemy wants." The argument (which I consider flaky) is that perhaps Dumblebore didn't want to tip his hand to Voldemort. Why would Dumbledore care if Voldemort knew that Dumbledore knew what Voldemort wanted, ala they prophecy? (Read that 3 times fast!) I think this is exactly what Dumbledore should have done, in essence saying, "I know what you're after. If you want it, you will have to come in person, at which point *I* will be waiting." But Bumblebore did not. So unlike him. Final mistake: Snape teaching Harry. Obviously Bumblebore has forgotten his childhood. (I don't think he could have, BTW, with "Weasly is our King" in his head, were he a time-shifted Ron.) How could he possible think that Snape would not retaliate against Harry for his father's bullying? They look just alike, and I'm sure Dumbledore knew of the bullying. He knows very nearly everything that goes on in the castle in secret. He had to be aware of bullying right out in the courtyard next to the lake. If he had any sense of people at all, he would have known that the reversal of roles would be too much for Snape to overcome. Now he could look down at James's image in his son. He, Snape, is now the more powerful one. Almost everyone, if given this chance to avenge the display of one's dingy under-things would have given in to the temptation. I know I would have. And I don't even value the Slytherin mantra very much... What a bumbling bore is Dumbledore, indeed. Part II: Speculation on the Absence of Bumblebore and Angst-Filled Harry in Future Books Fortunately for those who share with me the frustration of their favorite character's failures (those that prefer Harry, for instance), I believe we will see quite a change in the following books. Hopefully in the sooner one, rather than the later. Bumblebore is out, and Dumbledore is back. I think Dumbledore, unrestrained by politics now that everyone has been warned of Voldemort, will show his powers. I think we'll see him taking all sorts of actions. I'm hoping for that splendid "Battle of Hogwarts" scene. I crave to see Dumbledore do more than a couple Stunning Spells. I want the full-fledged, unabashed, top-of-his-game, "World's Most Powerful Wizard (TM)." I see this change extending in to Harry also, since Dumbledore will no longer be bumbling around him, pretending he doesn't exist like a common Dursley muggle. I think there's some more explaining and teaching to be done, and I think we will see it done by Dumbledore this time. Just this fatherly behavior and love, which he will find from Dumbledore in even greater measure than from Sirius, will be enough to turn Harry's foul mood around. Harry will finally have the complete love he has not know previously, that of a parental figure. Somehow, I think that this completed love will become the key to his defeating Voldemort. I fear it may come down to Dumbledore meeting a "sticky end." If so, perhaps he will die for Harry. At which point Harry will realize that Dumbledore's spirit is living on inside of him. Another sort of ancient magic resulting from a different kind of sacrifice. Perhaps his grandfather's this time, or something along those lines? Anyway, Voldemort would then have to confront his greatest fear and the one with the power to defeat him in one package. Sort of an "unbeatable combination," wouldn't you think? Part III: Unfounded Speculation, General I hope to hear, "Very well, Severus. As you do not wish to teach Harry potions, you shall take on Defense Against the Dark Arts this year, something Harry has very little need of anyway." A new, fantastic potions-master would be required, of course. Perhaps a Weasley or Krum? Sadly, the jinx will get Snape too, and Voldemort will discover his treachery and kill him after being unable to retrieve information about Harry from his mind. Snape will return as a ghost, and teach Potions. *grin* I haven't decided whether Harry will survive, though I lean toward his becoming an Auror as McGonagall swore, even though she has sadly been killed by Umbridge who was a Death Eater afterall. (I *did* mention this as unfounded speculation, right?) I think good things are in store for everyone else too, and don't see much death happening to the children. Not Neville, Ron, and Hermione, anyway. I haven't got specific theories, but I bet Ron does something that makes him richer than his brothers. Or either he'll follow his Dad's footsteps and do something worthwhile but with a piteous salary. And there you have my two knuts, which is long enough to cost a Galleon. Dennis Who doesn't want to be sorted into Slytherin even though he is eager to see more power and some action. From cherishedvette at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 06:00:51 2003 From: cherishedvette at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 06:00:51 -0000 Subject: How much does Draco know? (Was: Page 305) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86788 Carol > I seem to recall that the identity of the veiled witch in that > > scen is revealed later in the book and it's a man, a spy for Dolores > > Umbridge. Does anyone remember offhand who it was? C. > > Erin: > > It wasn't a spy for Umbridge at all, lol. It was Mundungus Fletcher, > keeping an eye on Harry for the Order. > Karen: Umbridge's spy was the man rapped in bandages. His name was Willy Widdershins, he was the one exploding toilets when Arthur takes Harry to his trial. From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Dec 9 07:50:20 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 07:50:20 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall Road and the Elixir of Life ( was The Diary (just where did V get In-Reply-To: <3FD59EAC.22060.71A1CB@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86789 Shaun: > Kennington Lane in Kennington (which is part of London) was known for a long > time as Vauxhall Road. I'm not sure when the change occurred - I do know it was > still Vauxhall Road as late as 1942. > Geoff: That's interesting if it's correct. It didn't apparently show up on the search Linocow mentioned in message 86721. I say "if it's correct" because I have just consulted a 1934 London bus map in my archive and the road is shown as Upper Kennington Lane, part of the present day Kennington Lane which runs from Vauxhall Cross (the south side of Vauxhall Bridge) through to the Elephant and Castle. Roads in that area are not major shopping roads, but there are corner shops and, certianly in the time when Tom Riddle was obtaining his diary, there would be small newsagents who, still today, stock odds and ends like biros and notebooks etc. Geoff From mpjdekker at hotmail.com Tue Dec 9 11:00:29 2003 From: mpjdekker at hotmail.com (mightymaus75) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 11:00:29 -0000 Subject: Harry's scar and Voldemort (Was: A strange silver instrument) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86790 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > > I think you've missed the point of my quotation. The child thought > that "Snap" caused the pain and JKR corrected him/her. We know now, > after the fact, that Snape didn't cause the scar to hurt, but we're > meant to *think*, as the child reader did, that he's the cause. > Snape is the red herring villain throughout the first book. We're > not meant to think that Voldemort is in Quirrell's head. How could > we possibly imagine such a thing only a few chapters into the book, > when all we know is that Voldemort killed Harry's parents and we've > barely met Snape and Quirrell? If we were, by some rare > understanding of how JKR's mind works, to figure out the ending, > the entire book would be spoiled. Why would JKR want that? Or do > you mean that on a second reading, after we've learned all about > Quirrellmort, we're meant to know that Voldemort is looking at > Harry at that point? If so, I don't see why you're bringing it up, > because by that time we know the real cause of the pain. > > Your quotations from GoF seem to relate to a different argument. > They appear at a point in the story long after we know that > Voldemort, not Snape, caused the pain. > > Maybe I'm missing your point as you seem to have missed mine. If so, > please accept my apologies. > > Carol I'm sorry if I caused some confusion. In my original message I was trying to suggest that, while we are meant to think that Voldemort caused the pain in Harry's scar after reading PS/SS, maybe it was Snape after all. A sort of bait and switch: first make us think it's Snape, then make us think it was Voldemort, while after all it was actually Snape using Legilimency on Harry. I admit that JKR saying it was in fact Voldemort looking at Harry that caused his scar to hurt makes this seem very unlikely. The rest of my second message wasn't really directed at you but was just me rambling on about what specifically it is that causes Harry's scar to hurt. It's just that I believe this question is at the heart of the Harry Potter series. Once we figure out what it is that makes his scar hurt, we will probably have solved the mystery. Voldemort's presence alone doesn't seem to be enough, so I find it very interesting that JKR says it was Voldemort *looking* at Harry that caused the pain in his scar. Especially when Snape told Harry that Legilimency requires the wizard to be near to and looking at the intended target. I hope this clears things up. -Maus From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 10:59:54 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 10:59:54 -0000 Subject: Pensieve objectivity (was : Looks aren't everything!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86791 "M.Clifford" wrote: > The memory Harry first visits in Dumbledores penseive is of > Dumbledore *sitting juror*. (...) As I recall Harry came from this > pensieve visit feeling quite normal, not so with the Memory from > Snapes childhood. > > In Snapes memory we go to the exact opposite extreme. (...) As I > recall Harry came from this experience beyond perturbed. His > reaction was extreme deep and obsessive. Very Snape like behaviour > I purport. Whereas after witnessing a father condemning his > pleading young son to the doom of Azkaban Harry emerged with a DD > like reaction of calm curiousity. > > Yes I am saying that not only is the pensieve affected but also the > veiwer. The memory visiter is temporarily filled with the emotional > state of the memory. The canon strongly suggests it to me. Ha, yes, but you're forgetting one thing : Harry is not personally involved in the first memory, while he is *very strongly* personally involved in the second one. He couldn't care less about the Crouch family, but he couldn't care more about his mom, dad, godfather, favorite teacher, less favourite teacher and most hated traitor. Moreover, he didn't learn anything horribly upsetting in DD's memory (so Crouch's son was condemned by his own father ? So what ? Harry already knows Crouch is no fun), while he learned *positively horrible* stuff in Snape's memory (namely, that his dad was a jerk when he was Harry's age, and that Snape has good reasons to hate him, which is bound to shake Harry's conviction that Snape is simply unfair and bitter). So MY take on the whole thing is that Harry didn't need to be influenced by the emotions of the memories' owners : his own feelings were enough. > As well in a final supporting statement we must remember that > memory is MORE than the image. It IS also the emotion, the touch, > the odour and the sound. Emotion is a part of memory and is rightly > recorded along with all other sensory perception. It MUST be > present in the pensieve. But who said that the Pensieve records a WHOLE memory ? DD gave Harry a quick explanation of what a Pensieve is and how it works, he didn't get into too much detail. Maybe if he had taken more time, he would have explained that the Pensieve records only the facts ? Maybe he didn't think it necessary for Harry to know more ? Just because we know that emotions are a strong part of a memory doesn't mean we can infer that emotions must necessarily be recorded in a Pensieve. Del From quigonginger at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 11:08:20 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 11:08:20 -0000 Subject: How much does Draco know? (Was: Page 305) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86792 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erinellii" wrote: > > > Carol > I seem to recall that the identity of the veiled witch in that > > scen is revealed later in the book and it's a man, a spy for Dolores > > Umbridge. Does anyone remember offhand who it was? C. > > > Erin: > > It wasn't a spy for Umbridge at all, lol. It was Mundungus Fletcher, > keeping an eye on Harry for the Order. > > Erin Ginger adds: Actually, Carol, you're just a bit off. The veiled witch was Dung, as Erin pointed out, but the spy for Umbridge was Willy Widdershins, the exploding toilet boy, who was the heavily bandaged guy at the bar. He did a bit of a plea bargain, exchanging DA info as penance for pyrotechnic porcelain. Ginger, eating cheetos From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 12:46:45 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 12:46:45 -0000 Subject: Harry and Neville: Brothers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86793 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Derek Hiemforth" wrote: > Okay, a bizarre thought just hit me. With all the emphasis on > twins in the HP books, and with both Harry and Neville born on > the same day, is there any chance they are twins, and that fact > is being hidden from them? > > I've no canon to support this, of course, but it would certainly > be an interesting twist... > > - Derek It doesn't say they were born on the same day in canon, only they were both born towards the end of July. Serena From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 23:52:11 2003 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 23:52:11 -0000 Subject: In bed with Harry Potter (Re: Sexual Temptaion ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86794 Iris wrote: > I'm not saying by this that Harry feels an erotic fascination > towards Voldemort. I only noticed, while I was reading the books, > that the way JKR made Voldemort talk to Harry, the way he used the > verb "to conquer" when he described what had happened in Godric's > Hollow, was rather particular. And what can we think of the way > Voldemort "visits" Harry while the boy is in bed? It starts with the > first dream Harry has when he arrives at Hogwarts. It goes on with > the Diary: Harry understand how it work, then travels through Tom's > memories and is seduced by his lies. Where does it happen? In > Harry's bed. Not to mention the fact that most of the time, Harry is > asleep in his bed when Voldemort possesses his mind. OK, we can > object that when he is asleep is when Harry is more vulnerable; it > doesn't matter, it happens while he is in bed Why? I don't know, but > Voldemort's obsession towards the Boy Who Lived has very strange > accents. > And I won't try to comment the sequences when Lupin or Sirius put, > or don't put, their hand on Harry's shoulder. Harry, cet obscur > objet du d?sir > > Amicalement, > > Iris In CoS, didn't Tom Riddle say that for awhile now his new obsession had been Harry. As has already been posted, CoS employed quite a few sexual overtones which makes it interesting that CoS was the book where Tom admitted his fascination with Harry. Yolanda From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Tue Dec 9 14:10:33 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 08:10:33 -0600 Subject: [HPFGU-Feedback] Re: ADMIN: Possible Threat to the HPFGU Family of Lists In-Reply-To: <1070925629.208BE724@s29.dngr.org> Message-ID: <000001c3be5e$3a99b120$99ee79a5@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 86795 Iggy here: Sorry for those who read this a few times because I'm posting it to all the lists in this family of groups, but I feel that it's important enough that I want to make sure everyone gets this letter... I would like to point something out, folks. People are wondering what someone could possibly use against these groups to have them eliminated... and it was also mentioned that incidents such as sex with minors has been used against groups, even if it's implied. We need to eliminate (at least for the time being) the topic about the sexual temptations of Harry Potter (a minor) and especially eliminate topic titles such as "In Bed With Harry Potter." Since we know that Yahoo has a history of not investigating claims against groups, even the titles have the potential to get the groups deleted if Yahoo chooses to take them as a violation of their terms. This is not stating that we need censorship... not by a long shot. But if someone is threatening the groups, common sense dictates that we try to hold off on any topics/theories/language that can be potentially used against the group... and the above named threads are prime examples of ones we need to avoid for now... Hoping everyone understands where I'm coming from here... Iggy McSnurd From kmsyarto at hotmail.com Tue Dec 9 13:18:25 2003 From: kmsyarto at hotmail.com (marigoldevans) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 13:18:25 -0000 Subject: Trelawny's Prophecy was Re: Did James and Lily know about the prophecy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86796 LauraW: > > I think Dumbledore keeps her around not because she might > > tell others about the prophecy, but rather because, who > > knows, there might actually be a third one forthcoming. > > And besides, he is kind even to incompetents. > > Carol: > I think he believes that she rendered him and Harry, maybe the entire > WW, a very valuable service with her first real prophecy and rewarded > her by giving her the teaching job she was applying for even though > she clearly had no talent. After the second real prophecy, he jokes > about giving her a raise. When Umbridge fires her, he allows her to > remain in Hogwarts, which is her only home, a very kind act that I > hope will be rewarded by a third prophecy. I tend to believe that it is more than just kindness, though DD is very kind, based on the scene in the entry hall. (Am. ed., ch. 26, pg. 596-597) "'No---no, I'll g-go, Dumbledore! I sh-shall l-leave Hogwarts and s-seek my fortune elsewhere---' 'No,' said Dumbledore sharply. 'It is my wish that you remain, Sibyll.'" DD's tone of voice, IMHO, indicates a sense of urgency that she not leave. Perhaps, there is a third prophecy to come, or perhaps there is a magical way of retrieving a prophecy from someone, especially if that person is indeed a vessel for the prophecy? Marigold From aldhelm at earthlink.net Tue Dec 9 14:02:59 2003 From: aldhelm at earthlink.net (carin_in_oh) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 14:02:59 -0000 Subject: marriage in families and WW generations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86797 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chelle" wrote: >... > As for Mr. and Mrs. Black being related... > Even if they are, there are cultures that practice arranged marriage > ONLY to members inside their family. I have seen it. They really do > it. For generations. It's wierd, but from what I saw their kids were > normal, happy, and healthy. To each their own. > > The thing is, the Blacks are British, and I don't recall it ever being > a part of THEIR culture. Cousin marriages were normal among the Muggle landed classes in Britain into the 19th century (it was a way to keep property in the family; cf. the assumption that Mr. Darcy will marry his cousin Anne de Bourgh in _Pride and Prejudice_), so I wouldn't see anything odd about the practice persisting in a very conservative and self- isolating family of long-lived English Wizards. In fact, it would seem odd to me if the Blacks did not ordinarily marry their cousins. Which sparks a tangential thought: I wonder about the relationship between the persistence of attitudes and practices in the WW and the longer Wizard lifespans. A senior citizen of the WW, like DD, was born in the mid-19th century. Now, DD is super-progressive in his attitudes, but imagine the perspective that the oldest patriarchs and matriarchs of the ancient wizarding families would have brought to the events of the 1990's - and so on, back through the Wizarding generations. Carin From LinneaLand at CS.com Tue Dec 9 14:14:04 2003 From: LinneaLand at CS.com (thelinnealand) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 14:14:04 -0000 Subject: Harry's scar and Voldemort (Was: A strange silver instrument) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86798 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mightymaus75" wrote: > what specifically it is that causes Harry's scar to > hurt. It's just that I believe this question is at the heart of the > Harry Potter series. Once we figure out what it is that makes his > scar hurt, we will probably have solved the mystery. Voldemort's > presence alone doesn't seem to be enough, so I find it very > interesting that JKR says it was Voldemort *looking* at Harry that > caused the pain in his scar. Especially when Snape told Harry that > Legilimency requires the wizard to be near to and looking at the > intended target. > > I hope this clears things up. > > -Maus As I read it, it is not the looking or the thinking that makes the scar burn but the feelings LV is having. Murderous intent, diabolical laughter, extreme self-satisfied glee etc.; a variety of very strong, negative emotions. And Harry is the one whose very strong, positive emotions damage LV in turn. The MoM scene finale: " They were fused together, bound by pain (LV taunts DD)...And as Harry's heart filled with emotion, (love for Sirius) the creature's coils loosened, the pain was gone." Along with LV (for now). Remember too that it was his mothers love that stopped LV the last time as much as any charm she may have used to enhance it. Linnea who has some reservations about the Electric Minerva From caroline at illustratorene.no Tue Dec 9 10:19:58 2003 From: caroline at illustratorene.no (linocow2000) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 10:19:58 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall Road and the Elixir of Life ( was The Diary) -longish In-Reply-To: <3FD5E674.16880.18A132F@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86799 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > There *does* appear to have been a Vauxhall Road in London. The name * does* > seem to have been in use as late as 1942. > > And it seems to have been the road either now known as Kennington Road, or > Kennington Lane. > On July 17th, 1942, workers demolishing the Vauxhall Baptist Church in Vauxhall > Road, London, found a body. It was initially believed to be a victim of the Blitz (the > area had been bombed several times in 1940 and 1941) or an old burial from the > churchyard, but was later identified as Mrs Rachel Dobkin, the wife of Harry > Dobkin who worked at 302 Vauxhall Road, London. He was later hanged for her > murder. > > > I'm just getting confused here - but I am seeing some indication of the term > Vauxhall Road in use in 1942 - best approach, I think, to confirm would be to > consult London newspapers about the Dobkin murder.> Now me: This is a great bit of research Shaun! I was immediately interested in the reference to the Dobkin murder. My parents used to talk about Keith Simpson, the forensic pathologist who solved the case whom they remembered from their time as medical students at Guys Hospital. I found a lot more about the case (a famous one at the time) at the website of the Vauxhall Society (http://www.vauxhallsociety.org.uk/ Murders.html), which refers to: "badly bomb-damaged Vauxhall Baptist Chapel in Vauxhall Road, Kennington (now Kennington Lane)" so seems like the identity of Vauxhall Road is cleared up. Abbreviated details of the murder case as follows: "On July the 17th 1942 a workman who was helping to demolish the badly bomb-damaged Vauxhall Baptist Chapel in Vauxhall Road, Kennington (now Kennington Lane), prised up a stone slab and found beneath it a mummified body. The immediate assumption was that the remains were either of an air raid victim or had come from the old burial ground underneath the church, which had ceased to be used some fifty years before. When the church had been bombed on the 15th of October 1940 more than a hundred people had been killed in the conflagration .... Nor was it the first body that the workers had come upon while demolishing the chapel. Nevertheless, routine was followed, and the police were called in......the bones being removed to Southwark Mortuary for examination by pathologist Dr Keith Simpson. Simpson immediately suspected foul play.....An obvious attempt had been made to disguise the identity of the corpse. Dr Simpson obtained the permission of the coroner to take the remains back to his laboratory at Guy's Hospital for a more detailed inspection. Returning to the crypt of the church......Simpson noticed a yellowish deposit in the earth, subsequently analysed as slaked lime. This had been used to suppress the smell of putrefaction, but it also had the effect of preventing maggots from destroying the body. Examining the throat and voice box, Simpson detected a blood clot, strongly indicating death due to strangulation. The next task was to discover the identity of the victim. The body was that of a woman aged between forty and fifty, with dark greying hair, was five feet one inch tall, and had suffered from a fibroid tumour. Time of death was estimated at between twelve and fifteen months prior to discovery. Meanwhile the police had been checking the lists of missing persons, and noted that fifteen months previously Mrs Rachel Dobkin, estranged wife of Harry Dobkin, the fire watcher at the firm of solicitors next door to the Baptist Chapel at 302 Vauxhall Road, had disappeared. An interview with her sister elicited the information that she was about the right age, with dark greying hair, was about five feet one tall, and had a fibroid tumour. She also gave police the name of Mrs Dobkin's dentist, Barnett Kopkin of Stoke Newington, who kept meticulous records and was able to describe exactly the residual roots and fillings in her mouth. They matched the upper jaw of the skull. Finally, ...the Photography Department at Guy's super- imposed a photograph of the skull on to a photograph of Rachel Dobkin, a technique first used six years earlier in the Buck Ruxton case. The fit was uncanny. .............The trial of Harry Dobkin opened at the Old Bailey on the 17th of November 1942.... Dobkin's counsel........ spent most of his efforts trying vainly to challenge the identification evidence. The prisoner's appearance in the witness box left the jury unimpressed, and it took them only twenty minutes to arrive at a verdict of guilty. Before his execution Dobkin confessed to his wife's murder , claiming that she was always pestering him for money and he wanted to be rid of her for good." (taken from Vauxhall Society website) So, first the spooky Phiz illustration and now a notorious murder.... Seems that Vauxhall Road is a bit of a haunted place... Linocow From valerie.flowe at verizon.net Tue Dec 9 14:31:23 2003 From: valerie.flowe at verizon.net (busybuzzbuzz2003) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 14:31:23 -0000 Subject: Harry and Neville: Brothers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86800 Derek Hiemforth wrote: > Okay, a bizarre thought just hit me. With all the emphasis on > twins in the HP books, and with both Harry and Neville born on > the same day, is there any chance they are twins, and that fact > is being hidden from them? > I've no canon to support this, of course, but it would certainly > be an interesting twist... Funny, I was entertaining the Harry/Neville twin idea just yesterday! There is certainly something mysterious with Lily, Snape, Voldemort. What I can't figure out is why , at the end of OoP, JKR threw in the possibility that Harry wasn't the "chosen one", but maybe Neville was? Was that just fleshing out the story, or is there a lot more to that? Also, the only kids that could see the Thestrals were Harry, Neville and Luna. We know Harry saw his parents and Cedric being killed, and Luna saw her mother being killed. Who did Neville see killed? Aren't both his parents crazy in St. Mungos? From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Tue Dec 9 15:15:07 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 09:15:07 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Neville: Brothers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501c3be67$3c55f100$99ee79a5@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 86801 >From: busybuzzbuzz > >Also, the only kids that could see the Thestrals were Harry, >Neville and Luna. We know Harry saw his parents and Cedric >being killed, and Luna saw her mother being killed. Who did >Neville see killed? Aren't both his parents crazy in St. Mungos? Iggy here: Neville saw his grandfather die, IIRC. Iggy McSnurd From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Dec 9 15:17:03 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:17:03 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] marriage in families and WW generations Message-ID: <15c.28bf8f7c.2d07416f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86802 In a message dated 12/09/2003 8:38:09 AM Central Standard Time, aldhelm at earthlink.net writes: > Cousin marriages were normal among the Muggle landed classes in Britain > into the > 19th century (it was a way to keep property in the family; cf. the > assumption that Mr. > Darcy will marry his cousin Anne de Bourgh in _Pride and Prejudice_), so I > wouldn't > see anything odd about the practice persisting in a very conservative and > self- > To relate it to the Muggle world the Queen and Prince Philip are 3rd cousins. Tsar Nicholas and Alexandra, George V and Mary were also cousins (descended from George III) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Dec 9 15:20:02 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 15:20:02 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall Road and the Elixir of Life ( was The Diary) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86803 Geoff: The riddle of Riddle's diary is becoming quite interesting. Shaun (in message 86772) has raised the point of streets being known by two different names, There are instances of streets changing names. I lived for 45 years in south-west London, mostly in Wandsworth and for the first two years of marriage in Wimbledon, about four miles away from Vauxhall. There is a long road connecting Wandsworth and Tooting which until the 1930s was two separate roads with a name change about halfway. It is now known by only one name; the old name is commemorated by "formerly known as Road" at intervals. I note, having seen a comment from Steve Vander Ark (in message 86770), that Tom Riddle may have been at Stockwell Orphanage. To put non-UK readers a little more in the picture, Vauxhall is an area on the south bank of the Thames about 1 mile upstream (south) of the Houses of Parliament. It is a very busy junction with roads from seven different directions converging. Vauxhall Bridge Road, which may have muddied the investigation, is just on the north side of Vauxhall bridge leading to Victoria. The present Kennington Lane runs eastwards from here for about a mile to the Elephant and Castle junction. Halfway along, it crosses Kennington Road which runs for about a mile basically south from Waterloo station to the Oval (the famous cricket ground) - the crossing in terms of Kennington Road being about a third of a mile north of the Oval. From the Oval, Stockwell is about two-thirds of a mile south-east. I checked out the notes re the murder and agree with Shaun's information. The fact that a house number was given in the report means that Vauxhall Road certainly existed at the time ? the question is where? I have proof from the 1934 London bus map that Kennington Road and Upper Kennington Lane (now Kennington Lane) certainly existed. However, the map does not show the section of Kennington Lane which now exists between the Kennington Road crossing and the Elephant and Castle, because no buses ran that way. This would appear to be the possible location and that at some point between 1942 now, the whole stretch of road became Kennington Lane. I commented in an earlier post that Vauxhall seemed a bit off track for Tom Riddle. However, if he was at Stockwell, getting from Kings Cross to there is easy because both stations are on the Tube (Northern Line); Kennington is a station on the same line in between and is only a few minutes walk from what might have been Vauxhall Road, so he might have broken a journey or walked the mile and a half or so from Stockwell to the Kennington area. When I was a kid, it was not unusual to walk fair distances in the town to save on bus fares etc. This is not a definitive proof, but it does tie up some of the loose ends. Hope it makes sense to folk not familiar with London. Geoff From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Dec 9 15:42:46 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:42:46 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Neville: Brothers? Message-ID: <9f.416c9631.2d074776@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86804 In a message dated 12/09/2003 9:13:13 AM Central Standard Time, valerie.flowe at verizon.net writes: > Also, the only kids that could see the Thestrals were Harry, > Neville and Luna. We know Harry saw his parents and Cedric > being killed, and Luna saw her mother being killed. Who did > Neville see killed? Aren't both his parents crazy in St. Mungos? > > Neville saw his grandfather die but he didn't necessarily see him being killed. It very well could have been from natural causes and IMO Grandmother Longbottom probably would have called Neville into the room when death seemed immediate. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Tue Dec 9 16:01:45 2003 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 16:01:45 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trelawny's Prophecy was Re: Did James and Lily know about the prophecy? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86805 Marigold said: >I tend to believe that it is more than just kindness, though DD is >very kind, based on the scene in the entry hall. (Am. ed., ch. 26, >pg. 596-597) "'No---no, I'll g-go, Dumbledore! I sh-shall l-leave >Hogwarts and s-seek my fortune elsewhere---' 'No,' said Dumbledore >sharply. 'It is my wish that you remain, Sibyll.'" DD's tone of >voice, IMHO, indicates a sense of urgency that she not leave. >Perhaps, there is a third prophecy to come, or perhaps there is a >magical way of retrieving a prophecy from someone, especially if >that person is indeed a vessel for the prophecy? I, too, believe it is more than just kindness at work here. I think it's very simple: Dumbledore believes (correctly in my opinion) that if Trelawney leaves Hogwarts she will be in danger of capture, torture and/or death from Voldemort and the Death Eaters. They'd be likely to give her the same treatment they gave the Longbottoms, thinking she could tell them what they wanted to know -- in this case, the words of the prophecy. (Of course, they'd be wrong, just as they were with the Longbottoms, but that wouldn't help her any more than it did them.) Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Cell phone switch rules are taking effect find out more here. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/consumeradvocate.armx From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 16:34:27 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 16:34:27 -0000 Subject: [HPFGU-Feedback] Re: ADMIN: Possible Threat to the HPFGU Family of Lists In-Reply-To: <000001c3be5e$3a99b120$99ee79a5@Einstein> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86806 > Iggy here: > > We need to eliminate (at least for the time being) the topic about the sexual temptations of Harry Potter (a minor) and especially eliminate topic titles such as "In Bed With Harry Potter." Since we know that Yahoo has a history of not investigating claims against groups, even the titles have the potential to get the groups deleted if Yahoo chooses to take them as a violation of their terms. > > This is not stating that we need censorship... not by a long shot. But if someone is threatening the groups, common sense dictates that we try to hold off on any topics/theories/language that can be potentially used against the group... and the above named threads are prime examples of ones we need to avoid for now... > Laura: Nonsense. I'm really annoyed that you would even suggest such a thing. This is, after all, a list for adults. I think we self- censor quite adequately. Moreover, if the admins have something to say to us, I think they know how to say it. If you're talking with the authority of an admin, please say so. Otherwise, I'd appreciate not being told what to do by you. From paulag5777 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 17:08:06 2003 From: paulag5777 at yahoo.com (Paula Gaon) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 09:08:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter Seven, The Ministry of Magic Message-ID: <20031209170806.42620.qmail@web40007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86807 Tue, 09 Dec 2003 "KathyK" wrote: 1. The golden symbols on the ceiling in the Ministry What are they and why do they change? Paula now: First off, hello again everyone. After lurking for awhile and being busy with a few projects, I'm ready to jump back in the saddle. OK, now, the seemingly laxed security at MoM has always bothered me. I've mentioned in a previous post that it seems strange that the cool female voice so willingly admits people. How does she know that they are who they say they are? After reading this question, it occured to me that these symbols could very well be part of a magical secutity system--sensors of some type, hence their constant change as they are picking up and transmitting signals. We all know that JKR doesn't just mention facts willy-nilly. For example, how did DD know to come to the MoM at all to duel with LV? I imagine that somehow these sensors sent a *signal* to one of those strange instruments in DD's office. Notice that everytime Harry enters the Headmasters office JKR sees fit to mention the presence of these strange instruments. Yet, if I'm not mistaken, in all of canon, we only know of a single incident when DD used one of these instruments--when Arthur Weasley was attacked. I for one can't wait for book 6 to get a little more low-down on these *technical* issues. Kathy again: 8. How many wizards does it take to come up with a muggle-worthy excuse? Paula: This is a really interesting question, especially since the MoM seems to work like a real government bureauracracy--pretty much ignore those that they'd rather not have to deal with until a real emergency arises, then convenes all kinds of committees to blow untold amounts of hot air when they have no choice other than relate to a segment (in this case Muggles) in a politically correct way. Just look at the low status of Arthur Weasley's job in Muggle artifacts. But when something really goes bezerk, and the MoM must come up with some kind of excuse, I could imagine tens of, maybe even hundreds of all kinds of *experts* and *smart guys* sitting on committees, lauding their credentials, and generally strutting their feathers. ~Paula Gaon "...Weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From angelofthenorth at cantab.net Tue Dec 9 17:13:35 2003 From: angelofthenorth at cantab.net (Angel Moules) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 17:13:35 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Arthurs Wound In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FD602BF.3030909@cantab.net> No: HPFGUIDX 86808 thelinnealand wrote > > It may turn out that Fawkes actually belongs to whomever is Headmaster > at HSM (Umbridge not included) and that he will only save or defend > the students or staff and as a matter of free will. It certainly looks like it. Fawkes can become invisible at will, and should have had no problem in being invisible and getting to Arthur. It looks like there are two conditions to Fawkes appearing, either sufficing. 1. Dumbledore is in the immediate vicinity 2. The incident is on Hogwarts premises I was going to 'spoiler space' this, as it's for Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe, but it's fairly well known, and doesn't kill the plot: Lucy is told to be careful of the cordial that will heal any wound, that it shouldn't be wasted. Fawkes seems to monitor the situation, and give as needed. Angel From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Tue Dec 9 17:17:39 2003 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 17:17:39 -0000 Subject: [HPFGU-Feedback] Re: ADMIN: Possible Threat to the HPFGU Family of Lists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86809 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > > Iggy here: > > > > We need to eliminate (at least for the time being) the topic about > the sexual temptations of Harry Potter (a minor) and especially > eliminate topic titles such as "In Bed With Harry Potter." Since we > know that Yahoo has a history of not investigating claims against > groups, even the titles have the potential to get the groups deleted > if Yahoo chooses to take them as a violation of their terms. > > > > This is not stating that we need censorship... not by a long > shot. But if someone is threatening the groups, common sense > dictates that we try to hold off on any topics/theories/language > that can be potentially used against the group... and the above > named threads are prime examples of ones we need to avoid for now... > > > > Laura: > > Nonsense. I'm really annoyed that you would even suggest such a > thing. This is, after all, a list for adults. I think we self- > censor quite adequately. > > Moreover, if the admins have something to say to us, I think they > know how to say it. If you're talking with the authority of an > admin, please say so. Otherwise, I'd appreciate not being told what > to do by you. Being responsible for the title mentioned above, I think that I have to apologize if it sounds offensive to other posters. It was ironical, and aimed at an adult audience; I didn't think that it could be shocking. But what worries me especially, is the possibility that it could be used against the group. I really don't know what to do; if HPfGU happened to get into trouble because of me, I would cancel my membership imediately. I hope that the mods will tell me if there is any problem, and I make one more time apologies, Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa, Iris From saitaina at wizzards.net Tue Dec 9 17:19:22 2003 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 09:19:22 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] [HPFGU-Feedback] Re: ADMIN: Possible Threat to the HPFGU Family of Lists References: Message-ID: <062f01c3be78$970a6660$06301c40@aoldsl.net> No: HPFGUIDX 86810 Guys, relax for like, half a second here. Iggy is NOT speaking for or with the power of the Admins, he's just a list member, making a suggestion. I highly doubt Yahoo will give a flying fig about what we say about Harry Potter, in bed or out of. Could be wrong, but I doubt it considering some of the lists I own. So just take deep breaths here loves. Saitaina **** Brave and bold they're not. They ain't the bravest heroes...but they're the only ones we've got. http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina "No, one day I'm going to look back on all this and plow face-first into a tree because I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll still be having a better day than I am today." From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Tue Dec 9 17:25:12 2003 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 17:25:12 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] [HPFGU-Feedback] Re: ADMIN: Possible Threat to the HPFGU Family of Lists Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86811 >Laura: > >Nonsense. I'm really annoyed that you would even suggest such a >thing. This is, after all, a list for adults. I think we self- >censor quite adequately. Both you and Iggy are entitled to your opinions, and until the Admins express their opinions, they are both equally valid and entitled to expression. I happen to think Iggy has something there, and that if someone wanted to make this a problem for us they'd certainly be able to find evidence in our posts. (If what I've read in some of these posts is "self-censored," I don't want to meet the uncensored versions.) Of course I hope nothing comes of it, but I do think it's a valid suggestion. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Take advantage of our best MSN Dial-up offer of the year six months @$9.95/month. Sign up now! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Tue Dec 9 17:45:07 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:45:07 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] [HPFGU-Feedback] Re: ADMIN: Possible Threat to the HPFGU Family of Lists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c3be7c$30a815d0$6b35d843@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 86812 >Laura: > >Nonsense.? I'm really annoyed that you would even suggest such a >thing.? This is, after all, a list for adults.? I think we self- >censor quite adequately. > >Moreover, if the admins have something to say to us, I think they >know how to say it.? If you're talking with the authority of an >admin, please say so.? Otherwise, I'd appreciate not being told what >to do by you.? Iggy here: I am not speaking with the authority of the admin, and never implied this to be the case... I am simply speaking as one who has been a part of a couple of groups that have been hacked out by Yahoo and do not wish to see the same done with these lists. I am not telling people what to do, but I am stating what, IMHO, is a logical thing to do when in a situation like this. Like I said... I hoped that people understood where I was coming from. Apparently, some do not. Iggy McSnurd From LWalshETAL at aol.com Tue Dec 9 16:22:49 2003 From: LWalshETAL at aol.com (LWalshETAL at aol.com) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:22:49 EST Subject: Hog's Head Barman Message-ID: <73.38c18533.2d0750d9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86813 Derek wrote: > It's amusing to note that "Aberforth Dumbledore" is an anagram for > "the bar-room befuddler." :) Carolyn: Earlier this summer someone else (Talisman I think) pointed out that the name of the bar might be another clue to the possible link with Dumbledore: Hog(wart)s Head LauraW: What I really want to know is what an anagram for Albus Dumbledore's FULL name is - or else a reason why he has so many. Why do we have Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore? Why is such a long name necessary, useful, included? Also, I like the anagram for Harry's full name Harry James Potter: THY ROMP A RARE JEST Indeed! LauraW LWalshETAL at aol.com From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Tue Dec 9 17:49:57 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:49:57 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] [HPFGU-Feedback] Re: ADMIN: Possible Threat to the HPFGU Family of Lists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101c3be7c$dffabec0$6b35d843@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 86814 >Iris: >Being responsible for the title mentioned above, I think that I? >have to apologize if it sounds offensive to other posters. It was >ironical, and aimed at an adult audience; I didn't think that it >could be shocking. But what worries me especially, is the >possibility that it could be used against the group. I really don't >know what to do; if HPfGU happened to get into trouble because of >me, I would cancel my membership imediately. I hope that the mods >will tell me if there is any problem, and I make one more time >apologies, >Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa, Iggy here: Just to clarify... I did not mention your post to imply that you would be the cause of any shutdown, or that you should cancel your membership if anything did happen. I would not want that to happen at all... The only reason I mentioned it was because it is a thread title that could be misconstrued if someone simply saw it without reading the post itself... as can other post titles on occasion. Trust me, I've seen it a number of times, and will see it in the future. If you're worried about it, simply change the thread title to something more... inconspicuous... for lack of a better term. Iggy McSnurd From erinellii at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 17:52:23 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 17:52:23 -0000 Subject: [HPFGU-Feedback] Re: ADMIN: Possible Threat to the HPFGU Family of Lists In-Reply-To: <000001c3be7c$30a815d0$6b35d843@Einstein> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86815 > > Iggy here: > > I am not speaking with the authority of the admin, and never implied > this to be the case... > I am not telling people what to do, but I am stating > what, IMHO, is a logical thing to do when in a situation like this. > > Like I said... I hoped that people understood where I was coming from. > Apparently, some do not. > > Iggy McSnurd Erin: I understand where the both of you are coming from, but if you're going to continue this, could you take it to OT or the feedback list? Because it *is* getting really OT for those of us who just want to dicuss the books. Erin From blackgold101 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 17:54:28 2003 From: blackgold101 at yahoo.com (Marci) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 17:54:28 -0000 Subject: Acronym for Hog's Head Barman In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86816 "Marci" wrote: > > I agree that this familiarity to Harry has to do with some > resemblance to Albus. > > BARKEEP > > Brother Aberforth Really Keep Eyes Excellently Peeled > (or does Brother Aberforth Really Keep Everyone Evil Posted? nah!) > > Marci Keep should read Keeps. Marci From angelofthenorth at cantab.net Tue Dec 9 18:02:46 2003 From: angelofthenorth at cantab.net (Angel Moules) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 18:02:46 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hog's Head Barman In-Reply-To: <73.38c18533.2d0750d9@aol.com> References: <73.38c18533.2d0750d9@aol.com> Message-ID: <3FD60E46.9060505@cantab.net> No: HPFGUIDX 86817 LWalshETAL at aol.com wrote: > Derek wrote: > > It's amusing to note that "Aberforth Dumbledore" is an anagram for > > "the bar-room befuddler." :) > > Carolyn: > Earlier this summer someone else (Talisman I think) pointed out that > the name of the bar might be another clue to the possible link with > Dumbledore: > > Hog(wart)s Head > > LauraW: > What I really want to know is what an anagram for Albus Dumbledore's > FULL name is - or else a reason why he has so many. > > Why do we have Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore? Why is > such a long name necessary, useful, included? Well, Brian is a Monty Python reference. Percival seems to be Arthurian, and the other two are beyond me. Are there any decent Anagrams? Lord is in there... Angel From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Tue Dec 9 18:01:39 2003 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 18:01:39 -0000 Subject: Stereotyping In-Reply-To: <14b.27e37501.2d06527f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86818 Just chiming in on the "social attitudes" aspect of this thread. I'll jump off from something Sherrie wrote; enough others have said similar things that I hope it will be clear I'm not picking on anyone in particular. Martha: >> Where is it written that children shouldn't read >> about "homosexuality issues" or that publishers >> are unlikely to allow these issues to be dealt with? Sherrie: > A few years back, there was quite a flap in New York > area schools when they tried to introduce books > dealing with homosexual families into the elementary > curriculum, under the umbrella of the "Children of > the Rainbow" curriculum initiative. . . . > Granted, this was a decade ago - but regrettably, > attitudes haven't changed all that much in the > population at large in that timespan. I personally > cannot see Scholastic, at least, swimming that > strongly against the general current and introducing > an openly-gay relationship in future books. I think the atmosphere actually has changed quite a lot in the U.S. over the last decade or so. Ten years ago, networks refused to broadcast a same-sex kiss in prime time; today, they jump at the opportunity for the ratings surge. Ten years ago, "Ellen" was groundbreaking in portraying an openly gay character; today, there are several successful prime-time shows that are much more explicitly gay-themed, and many mainstream shows with openly gay characters who are portrayed as perfectly normal. (Fans of "Friends" can contrast the portrayal of Carol and Susan back in 1994, when they were introduced, with their portrayal more recently.) Seventeen years ago, the U.S. Supreme Court was branding gay sex as "deviant"; today, it is a constitutional right, and legal observers believe that gay marriage soon will be as well (it already is in Massachusetts). My guess would be that UK culture has moved along similar lines, although that impression is based on many fewer data points. This is not to deny that there is still a segment of the population who fear that their kids will be poisoned or something if they find out about (gasp) homosexuals. But these days, when a 2nd grader is sent home from school for telling classmates that his mom is gay, the story makes national news and there is much wringing of hands over how culturally backward they are in rural Louisiana. Yes, much of America is still distinctly uncomfortable with homosexuality, but most people understand that sticking their heads in the sand is no longer an option, even where children are concerned. What if Rowling portrayed a gay relationship in book 6 or 7? Not exploring the sexual angst of a main character; just a matter-of-fact acknowledgment of a same-sex couple, much like Carol and Susan in the more recent "Friends" episodes? Would schools or parents try to keep kids from reading the book? Doubtless a few would. And Rowling has already told us precisely how effective she thinks those taking such "Umbridge" would be. (Who knew the Quibbler could be so interesting....) Would a publisher refuse to print it? You might as well ask whether they'd refuse to print money. (Which is essentially what printing a HP book amounts to, whether or not you spice it up with a little controversy.) "But *children* will read this book!" Golly, you're right. I guess it's lucky that no children were watching the MTV music awards (well, only a few million!). Shockingly, some children are also reading Madonna's children's books, which she apparently was able to get published despite her less-than-virginal public image. Do you think they'll catch anything? -- Matt From LWalshETAL at aol.com Tue Dec 9 16:38:37 2003 From: LWalshETAL at aol.com (LWalshETAL at aol.com) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:38:37 EST Subject: Trelawny's Prophecy Message-ID: <137.28bf0947.2d07548d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86819 > LauraW: > I don't think even Professor Trelawny knows about the prophecies. Carol: (I also don't understand how copies of the prophecy can be captured in crystal to be kept in the DoM or whether new copies can be made of the ones that were destroyed.) LauraW: I have an idea about this. What if the person who received the prophecy could use a pensieve and the memory can then be copied, captured and encapsulated from there. The substance inside the glass orb did seem to resemble the silvery substance in the pensieve. Carol: I think he believes that she rendered him and Harry, maybe the entire WW, a very valuable service with her first real prophecy and rewarded her by giving her the teaching job she was applying for even though she clearly had no talent. After the second real prophecy, he jokes about giving her a raise. When Umbridge fires her, he allows her to remain in Hogwarts, which is her only home, a very kind act that I hope will be rewarded by a third prophecy. LauraW: I agree that DD is grateful for the rendering of a service. > Argus Filch is the caretaker of Hogwarts. > Wouldn't he be better off as an accountant? Carol: Even though Squibs can occasionally pass as Muggles (the Weasley's accountant cousin and Mrs. Figg), I can't imagine Filch being part of that world. I personally think he is where he wants to be, doing what he wants to do. And it's probably a lot safer to have someone like him scrubbing floors at Hogwarts than running around doing dirty work for the Death Eaters. I wonder if that's the life Dumbledore rescued him from. LauraW: Yes, I think he needs to be at Hogwarts, but why not in some position that doesn't require such intense magic, such as doing Hogwarts' accounting or ordering supplies? Why not leave the cleaning to the house elves? Why do house elves need to be hidden most of the time? I think it is cruel to have Filch continually see children performing tasks easily that he knows he can't do, but which are his assigned duties. That is, of course, the reason why magic is banned in the corridors and why Ron had to use non-magic to clean the trophies. No wonder Filch is so bitter. Yes, I know it makes for some good plot moments, but it still seems mean to me. LauraW LWalshETAL at aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From strom5150 at charter.net Tue Dec 9 18:15:03 2003 From: strom5150 at charter.net (strom5150) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 18:15:03 -0000 Subject: Sexual Temptaion/Marital Infidelity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86820 (Snippage) Erin wrote: > Erin again: > Well, not to be rude or anything, and I know that this is a popular > reading of Bellatrix, but you do realize > that there is absolutely no canon for it, right? > > The only broken marriage we've actually seen in canon was that of Tom > Riddle's parents, and Tom Sr. didn't run off with another woman; he > moved back in with his own parents. So there's no evidence > whatsoever that infidelity will ever be an issue in the books. > Danielle here: (still moderated, and hoping this makes the list before someone else posts the exact same thing) Actually, there is one small snippet of marital infidelity mentioned in one of JKR's books. I thought it was both funny and out of character for her to write it, so I've always remembered it. This is from a footnote in "Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them," page 27: "The number of Lethifold victims is almost impossible to calculate since it leaves no clues to its presence behind it. Easier to calculate is the number of wizards who have, for their own unscrupulous purposes, pretended to have been killed by Lethifolds. The most recent instance of such duplicity occurred in 1973 when the wizard Janus Thickey vanished, leaving only a hastily written on the bedside table reading "oh no a Lethifold's go me I'm suffocating." Convinced by the spotless and empty bed that such a creature had indeed killed Janus, his wife and children entered a period of strict mourning, which was rudely interrupted when Janus was discovered living five miles away with the landlady of the Green Dragon." (end quote) So, yes, she's capable of adding some marital infidelity, even if she hasn't done it in the main canon yet. Danielle (who has been enjoying this thread immensely) From serious_schwartz at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 18:40:12 2003 From: serious_schwartz at yahoo.com (serious_schwartz) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 18:40:12 -0000 Subject: Looks aren't everything! (was:Re: Sirius / Severus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86821 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Actually, the memory is not revealed from Snape's point of view. Harry > is not inside Snape's head, as he's inside Snake/Voldemort's in his > dream of trying to kill Arthur Weasley. He sees Snape from the > outside, sitting at his desk writing with his nose almost pressed > against the parchment and again, hanging upside down with the > Marauders laughing and taunting him. Similarly, when he's inside > Dumbldore's memories, he sees Dumbledore himself (and sits beside > him). He himself is actually inside the memory of the event just as it > happened. In other words, a Pensieve memory is much more objective > than a normal Muggle memory, which is necessarily subjective and > incomplete because we remember only what we perceived, distorted by > our own interpretation of the events. There is no interpretation in > the Pensieve memory itself. It's only what was actually said and done > from the viewpoint of a nonparticipant onlooker. Any interpretation > must be done by the onlooker, that is, Harry, not by the objectively > rendered event itself. > > Carol, who hopes this is clear and is glad that you're learning to > like Snape Serious: I understand your view point and those of the others who have written that the pensieve records and plays back a more objective view of events rather than just a colored memory. But I think JK is deliberately leaving some wiggle room with this plot device. Either because she wants to tease us, use it as an *a-ha!* moment at some point, or because she wants to be able to twist it for its most useful purpose in the future. I do still believe it is more of a memory than an objective viewing of events. Yes, Dumbledore says that the pensieve lets him stand back view events in their total contexts, but most of us learn to do that with our memories as we get older. I'm pushing 40, and I know that I am much more able to see things from all points of view than I used to be. Besides, is the mind really capable of taking a snapshot of events and not letting your thoughts and feelings filter it? That's sort of what pensieve means: thought filter. Although that also stands as an argument for it filtering out emotion... okay, better sign off now that I've written myself into a corner. Serious_Schwartz, who has just found another reason to reread all the books. From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Tue Dec 9 18:52:32 2003 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 18:52:32 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter Seven, The Ministry of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86822 > 5. The Ludicrous Patent Office is on Level Seven > of the Ministry. What might constitute a "ludicrous" > patent? Where is the not-so-ludicrous patent office? > Why is this office on the same level as the Department > of Magical Games and Sports, where it doesn't seem > to fit in as the other offices listed on other levels > fit in with the Department named? I don't know if this is the case in Britain, but on this side of the Atlantic some of the more ludicrous patents on file involve people purporting to claim ownership of simple physical procedures, such as putting a golf ball (U.S. 5,616,089), executing a tennis stroke while wearing a knee pad (U.S. 5,993,336), and even swinging on a swing (U.S. 6,368,227). There was also a publicized effort by a consulting company a few years back to get prominent sports stars to patent their moves. It is conceivable that JKR had read about some of this stuff and was poking fun at the idea. -- Matt From erinellii at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 18:53:40 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 18:53:40 -0000 Subject: Sexual Temptaion/Marital Infidelity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86823 Erin wrote: > > The only broken marriage we've actually seen in canon was that of Tom Riddle's parents, and Tom Sr. didn't run off with another woman; he moved back in with his own parents. So there's no evidence whatsoever that infidelity will ever be an issue in the books. > > > > Danielle here: > This is from a footnote in "Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them," page 27: > The most recent instance of such duplicity occurred in 1973 when the wizard Janus Thickey vanished, leaving only a hastily written on the bedside table reading "oh no a Lethifold's go me I'm suffocating." > Convinced by the spotless and empty bed that such a creature had > indeed killed Janus, his wife and children entered a period of strict mourning, which was rudely interrupted when Janus was discovered living five miles away with the landlady of the Green Dragon." (end quote) > > So, yes, she's capable of adding some marital infidelity, even if she hasn't done it in the main canon yet. Erin: I stand corrected. All, right, so I concede Bellatrix is capable of some on-the-side temptress action, though I still favor the Dead! Rudolphus variety, as in "Oh Harry/Ron/Remus, I've been so alone since my husband was killed! Won't you comfort me?" Erin From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 19:03:28 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 19:03:28 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter Seven, The Ministry of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86824 > > 4. The security guard waves a golden rod over Harry's body. What > > is its function? > > > > bboy_mn: > I see this as the equivalent of passing through the metal detectors at > the airport. > At to it functional use, I think it is amoung other things a metal > detector which prevents dangerous wizards from bringing muggle weapons > into the Ministry. It could also sniff our poisons, Dark Potions, and > other dangerous and unauthorized items. Annemehr: A metal detector, eh? That gives me a thought... I had just assumed that the instrument was a "magic detector," just so no-one could smuggle anything dangerously magical into the ministry. So, you get your wand weighed and identified and then you're searched for anything else magical. Among other things, this would prevent you from smuggling in a spare wand you could use to do mischief and then abandon since it could never be traced back to you. In other words, this is just an expansion on the second function Steve proposed. Now on to muggle weapons -- I think Steve may be on to something here. I think the MoM would be most concerned with guns. Guns are described as "a kind of metal wand that Muggles use to kill each other," quoted from the Daily Prophet article Harry read on the Knight Bus in PoA. As much as wizardkind looks down on muggles, I'll bet they're actually quite scared of these "muggle wands" that can kill suddenly and at a distance. The only question would be could this device detect both types of things? Because I think it would almost have to be there to detect hidden magical devices, but I'd really like it to detect guns too. > > 10. Why must Kingsley and Mr. Weasley pretend they don't know one > > another? Yes, it's to keep the Order a secret, but would it be > > so out of place for the two to be friends? > > > > bboy_mn: > They don't pretent to not know one another, they pretent to be nothing > more than co-workers. Like all co-workers, they would be on friendly > terms but not necessarily friends. Also, keep in mind that Kingsley is > in the premier postion in Law Enforcement; Mr. Weasley on the other hand, is the lowest of the low with > regard to his preceived job status. > > Also, Mr. Weasley's status at the Ministry is pretty shake. He has > generally made it know that he is a strong supporter of Dumbledore's > and that he has faith in what Harry says. That makes him a suspect, > and someone who's actions would be closely watched. So, it wouldn't be > good for anyone at the Minstry to seem too friendly or sympathetic > toward Arthur because that would likely draw close scrutiny to them. Annemehr: I agree that Mr. Weasley might have to be especially careful as he is apparently not very well esteemed by the "powers that be" in the ministry (although he does seem to be respected among many of his colleagues). I think, though, that all the Order members who work at the Ministry are taking special care not to *begin* socializing with each other if they hadn't already been. During OoP, the Order is working *against* Fudge and also *inside* the MoM doing guard duty at night. If any one of them were to be caught, any recent change in habits, including new friends, would be very closely scrutinised. Annemehr From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 9 19:08:30 2003 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 19:08:30 -0000 Subject: A Wizard's Age Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86825 It is a given that the lives of witches and wizards are considerably longer than those of muggles. I was wondering if someone born into a muggle family , who is offered a place at Hogwarts and, for some reason, refuses it, would still have an abnormally long life. I think someone mentioned some time ago a theory that Petunia might have been offered a place and for some unknown reason, turned it down. Using her as an example, if she was really a witch, albeit an untrained one, would she have a very long life? I am not, ofcourse, suggestingthat Petunia was a witch. She is just a useful peg to hang the question on. Sylvia (sorry this has come out rather jumbled, but I have been looking after a two-year-old all day.) From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Dec 9 19:41:33 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 19:41:33 -0000 Subject: The Order an Ancient Magical Group Rising in Times of Danger? (Arthur's wound) In-Reply-To: <3FD602BF.3030909@cantab.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86826 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Angel Moules wrote: > > It may turn out that Fawkes actually belongs to whomever is Headmaster > > at HSM (Umbridge not included) and that he will only save or defend > > the students or staff and as a matter of free will. > > > It certainly looks like it. Fawkes can become invisible at will, and > should have had no problem in being invisible and getting to Arthur. It > looks like there are two conditions to Fawkes appearing, either sufficing. > > 1. Dumbledore is in the immediate vicinity > 2. The incident is on Hogwarts premises > Jen R: I've often wondered why Fawkes is primarily loyal to Dumbeldore. It could be loyalty to the Headmaster/mistress at the time as Angel said. Perhaps since Umbridge doesn't have the students best welfare at heart, Fawkes would not be loyal to her (or she is not considered the Head by some invisible magical determination, thus the office sealing against her). Here are other possibilities: 1) Loyal to the Heir of Gryffindor, DD and now Harry 2) Loyal to the leader of the Order of the Phoenix, meaning it isn't just a fairly new organization, but instead has deep roots and history in the magical community, and rises in times of danger. This last one is interesting to me. Like a Phoenix, the Order could rise up in times of trouble and the leader is determined by some 'ancient magic', so Dumbledore is the current leader but Harry is the next One (maybe DD had a Prophecy about him when he was young ). Fawkes is loyal to the leader of the Order and his "song is magical; it is reputed to increase the courage of the pure of heart and to strike fear into the hearts of the impure" (FBWTFT, p. 32), as we saw in the graveyard. Any other canon for this besides all the Phoenix imagery? If I'm reposting a recent thought, please direct me--it's hard to keep up! Jen Reese From manawydan at ntlworld.com Tue Dec 9 19:41:30 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 19:41:30 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Vauxhall Road and the Elixir of Life ( was The Diary (just where did V get References: <1070943772.15333.47105.m2@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002e01c3be8c$74d32780$18e66151@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 86827 Steve wrote: >The intention of this essay is not to suggest that the orphanage is >in Chepstow. It is to suggest where Rowling may have gotten her >ideas for names of streets. We have the orphanage pegged in London, >right down to the actual place, although the real one wasn't a bad >place at all. Do you mean here that JKR got the idea of the orphanage from one in London, or that Tom Riddle was incarcerated in one in London? If the latter, then I'd be interested to know how he actually got there - my reading suggested that Hangleton was in the North of England, which would have meant that Tom's mother would have either had to have trekked down to London to give birth (in which case, how does Tom find out the story of his parentage, given that the one person who could have told him was long dead) or alternatively that she gave birth and died in the Hangleton area and Tom was placed in the local workhouse orphanage (where he could by several means have found out his history, but where he would have resided until he left school - there wouldn't have been a logical means for him to have been transferred to another orphanage in London). Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From angelofthenorth at cantab.net Tue Dec 9 20:10:29 2003 From: angelofthenorth at cantab.net (Angel Moules) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 20:10:29 +0000 Subject: Angel's pet theory about Mrs Riddle and Tom In-Reply-To: <002e01c3be8c$74d32780$18e66151@f3b7j4> References: <1070943772.15333.47105.m2@yahoogroups.com> <002e01c3be8c$74d32780$18e66151@f3b7j4> Message-ID: <3FD62C35.5050308@cantab.net> No: HPFGUIDX 86828 This has been posted on Le Cafe Dangereux, and alludes to some things on Red Hen Publications (brilliant site, worth the effort to find the essays). I read the bit about the Vauxhall Road, and thought nothing of it, until I happened to visit the old Bedlam Hospital, now known as the Imperial War Museum, which is in the right sort of vicinity and it struck me. What if the riddles had decided to make use of their money, and put Tom's mum (Thomasina for the purposes of this) into Bedlam, it being the most famous Psychiatric institution in the world, because they thought she was utterly mad for saying she was a witch. When Tom was born, he was moved to the nearest orphanage, which would have been used to taking in such orphans, and perhaps a nurse from the hospital happened to catch up with him occasionally, and let slip how he'd come to be there. I can see his father possibly giving a pittance to the orphanage, in order to keep it quiet, and that's how Tom found out, ironic really. The money stops for a while, because of the depression, and then starts again when britain re-arms. As for the family riddle - I posit Little Hangleton as being based on one of the pit villages around Durham - Pity Me is probably my favourite choice. It's run down and decrepit. The area is famous for Coal (thus heavy industry and arms manufacture/ship building) and for the Tyne, and for outstanding natural Beauty. It wouldn't surprise me if the Riddle family had made their money in weapons manufacturing in the nineteenth century - originally a family of philanthropists, that became more selfish as the years went on, or else were publicly philanthropic and privately horrible. (c.f. The Blind Assassin, by Margaret Atwood - I know it's Canadian). They bought a plot of land at the nice end of the village, and built a posh place that had stunning views over the local area. I'm wondering if Riddle had two sons - leaving LV with a muggle uncle that may have tried to take care of him and thomasina. "The Hanged Man" suggests to me that the area might have been part of the 19th Century riots that gripped the countryside as farming was mordernised (c.f. Ulverton, by Adam Thorpe). It suggests a particular hanging, perhaps one where the locals were in sympathy with the criminal rather than the victim. I'd love to see JKR write the Riddle family history as a saga, completely Muggle of course. Angel From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 20:22:34 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 20:22:34 -0000 Subject: Sexual Temptaion/Marital Infidelity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86829 > Erin wrote: So there's no evidence whatsoever that infidelity will ever be an issue in the books. > > Danielle here: > This is from a footnote in "Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them," page 27: > > > So, yes, she's capable of adding some marital infidelity, even if she hasn't done it in the main canon yet. > > Erin: > I stand corrected. All, right, so I concede Bellatrix is capable of some on-the-side temptress action, though I still favor the Dead! > Rudolphus variety, as in "Oh Harry/Ron/Remus, I've been so alone > since my husband was killed! Won't you comfort me?" > Laura: I seem to recall that Rodolphus is back in Azkaban with Lucius and the other DEs who were caught at the MoM. Now that the Dementors have crossed over, perhaps she or LV could arrange a little "accident"... From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Dec 9 20:28:16 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 20:28:16 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall Road and the Elixir of Life ( was The Diary (just where did V get In-Reply-To: <002e01c3be8c$74d32780$18e66151@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86830 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" wrote: Ffred: > Do you mean here that JKR got the idea of the orphanage from one in London, > or that Tom Riddle was incarcerated in one in London? If the latter, then > I'd be interested to know how he actually got there - my reading suggested > that Hangleton was in the North of England, which would have meant that > Tom's mother would have either had to have trekked down to London to give > birth Geoff: I'm interested why you think Hangleton is in the north? The only clue I can recall is that it is 200 miles from Little Whinging (end of the first chapter of GOF). Agreed, that still places it a long way from London but Mrs.Riddle could have come to London after she was thrown out. The orphanage knew Tom's name and we have discussed how he might have located his father in a previous thread with that knowledge. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 21:02:18 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 21:02:18 -0000 Subject: Pensieve objectivity (was : Looks aren't everything!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86831 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" > wrote: > > "serious_schwartz" wrote: > > we tend to color our own memories. > > > Del wrote: > > *I* am of the opinion that a Pensieve scene is perfectly, even > *magically*, objective. > > Valky: > I am 100% absolutely *for* the affected penseive theory. I will tell > you why . > The memory Harry first visits in Dumbledores penseive is of > Dumbledore *sitting juror*. Personally I cannot imagine a more > objective combination of Dumbledore and jury duty. Hence on this > occassion Harry experienced as much an even tempered and calm > perception of the situation as we can imagine Dumbledore is able to > muster. I assume most listees would agree that is quite a lot. > > As I recall Harry came from this pensieve visit feeling quite > normal, not so with the Memory from Snapes childhood. > > > In Snapes memory we go to the exact opposite extreme. We see Snape, > our least rational and calm character in a situation where he is > inflamed to the most possible instability we can imagine Snape might > muster. Again most listees would agree, yes? Quite a lot? > > As I recall Harry came from this experience beyond perturbed. His > reaction was extreme deep and obsessive. Very Snape like behaviour I > purport. Whereas after witnessing a father condemning his pleading > young son to the doom of Azkaban Harry emerged with a DD like > reaction of calm curiousity. > > Yes I am saying that not only is the pensieve affected but also the > veiwer. The memory visiter is temporarily filled with the emotional > state of the memory. The canon strongly suggests it to me. > > As well in a final supporting statement we must remember that memory > is MORE than the image. It IS also the emotion, the touch, the odour > and the sound. Emotion is a part of memory and is rightly recorded > along with all other sensory perception. It MUST be present in the > pensieve. > > Any objectors? Carol: As I mentioned before, Harry is *outside* the action as a silent and invisible witness, seeing not only James, Sirius, Remus, and Lily but Snape himself from the outside. He is *not* inside Snape's mind, seeing from his perspective or feeling his emotions. Is his stomach tied in knots as he rushes to get all he knows onto that DADA exam? Is he worried that he's forgotten something as he studies the exam questions he's already answered? Is he humiliated and enraged as he's hung upside down? No. These things are happening to Snape and he is only watching and listening, reacting to what happened from his own perspective. The Dumbledore scenes (in which he is also present as a spectator and can see Dumbledore along with the others) had no personal significance for him at that time, whereas the Snape scenes involved people he knew or wanted to know, the father he had so admired revealed as less than perfect and the teacher he hated revealed as a (mostly) sympathetic figure. A subjective memory would have placed him inside Snape's head and would have had him reading and answering the exam notes, thinking Snape's thoughts and feeling his feelings. That doesn't happen. The feelings are Harry's own, not Snape's. Carol From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 20:47:08 2003 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 20:47:08 -0000 Subject: The Order an Ancient Magical Group Rising in Times of Danger? (Arthur's wound) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86832 Jen wrote: > I've often wondered why Fawkes is primarily loyal to > Dumbeldore. I don't have my copy of FBWTFT handy, however I remember FBWTFT saying that a Phoenix has a high danger/difficulty rating not because it is dangerous, but because only very powerful wizards can befriend/keep them. I always thought Dumbledore being a great wizard was why Fawkes stays and cooperates with him and vice versa this is one of the facts that quietly shows how powerful a wizard Dumbledore is. Yolanda From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Tue Dec 9 20:39:44 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 14:39:44 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A Wizard's Age References: Message-ID: <3FD63310.6020404@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86833 ladyramkin2000 wrote: > It is a given that the lives of witches and wizards are considerably > longer than those of muggles. I was wondering if someone born into a > muggle family , who is offered a place at Hogwarts and, for some > reason, refuses it, would still have an abnormally long life. I > think someone mentioned some time ago a theory that Petunia might > have been offered a place and for some unknown reason, turned it > down. Using her as an example, if she was really a witch, albeit an > untrained one, would she have a very long life? I am not, ofcourse, > suggestingthat Petunia was a witch. She is just a useful peg to hang > the question on. > Sylvia (sorry this has come out rather jumbled, but I have been > looking after a two-year-old all day.) > I think people are totally misunderstanding WHY wizards live longer. Its not genetics, its magic. People keep forgetting about the MAGIC! There are potions and spells to extend life and cure most ills that would shorten life. A muggle wife/husband of a wizard would no doubt live longer too as they would have the benefits of magical healing and life extension. You would live longer too if you had access to things powerful enough to regrow bones overnight and regenerate cells. Not to mention things like the potion made from the Philosopher's stone that can make a person immortal. Though that one is a lot harder to get without the stone. There are most likely a lot of life extending potions that don't make you immortal, but just shave a few years off once in a while. Jazmyn From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 21:26:00 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 21:26:00 -0000 Subject: Harry and Neville: Brothers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86834 Derek: Okay, a bizarre thought just hit me. With all the emphasis on twins in the HP books, and with both Harry and Neville born on the same day, is there any chance they are twins, and that fact is being hidden from them? I've no canon to support this, of course, but it would certainly be an interesting twist... Serena: It doesn't say they were born on the same day in canon, only they were both born towards the end of July. Carol: Also Harry closely resembles his father but has his mother's eyes, whereas Neville resembles his mother (even Lucius Malfoy, who's never met him, is able to identify him on the spot because of that resemblance). BTW, I haven't noticed any emphasis on twins other than Fred and George, but we do have pairs of contrasting brothers or sisters (Sirius and Regulus, Lily and Petunia), etc. I think that Neville, like Young Tom Riddle, functions to some degree as a foil to Harry: a character in a similar situation who reacts differently. The three could even be considered as a sort of triangle--the boy who went wrong, the boy he turned into his rival, and the boy who could have been that rival but wasn't "chosen." All three are effectively, if not actually orphaned at an early age, all three have someone on whom they could seek revenge for their situation, all three are or will almost certainly become powerful wizards, but all three react differently to these circumstances. There's no need for literal brotherhood or blood relationships here. The parallels and the contrasts are what matter. Carol From LinneaLand at CS.com Tue Dec 9 16:22:10 2003 From: LinneaLand at CS.com (thelinnealand) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 16:22:10 -0000 Subject: Arthurs Wound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86835 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Linnea wrote: This sounds to me more like the Basilisk (huge fangs) wound. One Pheonix tear and Arthur would be back on his feet again. Linnea responds: I think DD could have asked Fawkes to go to Arthur (who was alone in the basement with an invisibility cloak until DD requested the portrait arouse rescuers) much as he asked Fawkes to deliver a message later. Pippin: if Fawkes had shown up while Voldemort was still about, lurking in the snake's mind, Voldemort would have known that Dumbledore was aware of the link with Harry. That's not information Dumbledore wanted to give away. Linnea: "He reared high from the floor...plunging his fangs deeply...feeling the ribs splinter beneath his jaws"... and that is canon. Not your typical snake bite. In fact, I can think of no snake I ever heard of that can break your ribs by biting you. No biggy I guess since LV certainly could have charged Nagini up magically. And I agree with you Pippin about not wanting LV to know DD knew about the mind connection. From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Dec 9 20:16:40 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 20:16:40 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's names. In-Reply-To: <3FD60E46.9060505@cantab.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86836 > LWalshETAL at a... wrote: LauraW: > > Why do we have Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore? Why is > > such a long name necessary, useful, included? > Geoff: May I point you to message 83593 (and follow ups), a thread which, by a strange coincidence, is entitled "Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore" Geoff From kcawte at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 10 05:44:00 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 21:44:00 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vauxhall Road and the Elixir of Life ( was The Diary (just where did V get References: Message-ID: <005f01c3bee0$ab621730$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 86837 > > Geoff: > I'm interested why you think Hangleton is in the north? The only clue > I can recall is that it is 200 miles from Little Whinging (end of the > first chapter of GOF). Agreed, that still places it a long way from > London but Mrs.Riddle could have come to London after she was thrown > out. The orphanage knew Tom's name and we have discussed how he might > have located his father in a previous thread with that knowledge. > > K There are a very limited number of directions you can travel 200 miles in from Little Whinging. East or South are pretty much out (depending on *exactly* where Little Whinging is) and Hangleton just *sounds* northern. I agree with whoever said it sounded like a pit village in Co. Durham or somewhere like that. K From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 21:59:15 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 21:59:15 -0000 Subject: Trelawny's Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86838 Marigold said: I tend to believe that it is more than just kindness, though DD is very kind, based on the scene in the entry hall. (Am. ed., ch. 26, pg. 596-597) "'No---no, I'll g-go, Dumbledore! I sh-shall l-leave Hogwarts and s-seek my fortune elsewhere---' 'No,' said Dumbledore sharply. 'It is my wish that you remain, Sibyll.'" DD's tone of voice, IMHO, indicates a sense of urgency that she not leave. Perhaps, there is a third prophecy to come, or perhaps there is a magical way of retrieving a prophecy from someone, especially if that person is indeed a vessel for the prophecy? Janet Anderson: I, too, believe it is more than just kindness at work here. I think it's very simple: Dumbledore believes (correctly in my opinion) that if Trelawney leaves Hogwarts she will be in danger of capture, torture and/or death from Voldemort and the Death Eaters. They'd be likely to give her the same treatment they gave the Longbottoms, thinking she could tell them what they wanted to know -- in this case, the words of the prophecy. (Of course, they'd be wrong, just as they were with the Longbottoms, but that wouldn't help her any more than it did them.) Carol: I think you're both right. If Dumbledore had any doubts about keeping her at Hogwarts despite her incompetence (and I don't think he did), the fate of Bertha Jorkins would have confirmed the necessity of keeping her safe. And her danger may be even greater now that the MoM's copy of the prophecy has been destroyed. (I think he'll be rewarded by a third prophecy, as I said before.) Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 22:17:10 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 22:17:10 -0000 Subject: [HPFGU-Feedback] Re: ADMIN: Possible Threat to the HPFGU Family of Lists In-Reply-To: <000001c3be7c$30a815d0$6b35d843@Einstein> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86839 > >Laura: > >Nonsense. I'm really annoyed that you would even suggest such a > >thing. This is, after all, a list for adults. I think we self- > >censor quite adequately. > > > >Moreover, if the admins have something to say to us, I think they > >know how to say it. If you're talking with the authority of an > >admin, please say so. Otherwise, I'd appreciate not being told what > >to do by you. > > Iggy here: > I am not speaking with the authority of the admin, and never implied > this to be the case... > > I am simply speaking as one who has been a part of a couple of groups > that have been hacked out by Yahoo and do not wish to see the same done > with these lists. I am not telling people what to do, but I am stating > what, IMHO, is a logical thing to do when in a situation like this. > > Like I said... I hoped that people understood where I was coming from. > Apparently, some do not. Carol: At the risk of being jumped on, I agree with Iggy, whose advice as far as I can see is completely well-intentioned. If we want to preserve our group, we should take defensive measures at this critical point. I don't pretend to be an administrator and have absolutely no authority, but I hope that I may make a few suggestions for the consideration of my fellow group members. First, we can delete our own posts if we feel that something we've said could be used against the group. Second, if we fear being hit with a virus (as one member apparently was), we can go off e-mail and read our messages from the site. Third, we can keep our messages strictly on-topic (the HP books) and avoid subjects that are likely to light a flame under the group wreckers. Carol, who is going to take her own advice now and stay on topic From kcawte at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 10 06:32:35 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 22:32:35 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] [HPFGU-Feedback] Re: ADMIN: Possible Threat to the HPFGU Family of Lists References: Message-ID: <00a701c3bee7$793d9e30$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 86840 > Carol: > At the risk of being jumped on, I agree with Iggy, whose advice as far > as I can see is completely well-intentioned. If we want to preserve > our group, we should take defensive measures at this critical point. I > don't pretend to be an administrator and have absolutely no authority, > but I hope that I may make a few suggestions for the consideration of > my fellow group members. First, we can delete our own posts if we feel > that something we've said could be used against the group. Second, if > we fear being hit with a virus (as one member apparently was), we can > go off e-mail and read our messages from the site. Third, we can keep > our messages strictly on-topic (the HP books) and avoid subjects that > are likely to light a flame under the group wreckers. > OK firstly Yahoo have a tendency to delete without checking - so it doesn't matter what we say because they're not going to check. Secondly, if we start trying to worry about how someone who wants to cause trouble could twist what we say then we're not going to say *anything*. And thirdly - all the messages on the main group *are* on topic - if they weren't they wouldn't be on the main group in the first place. If we all start running around like headless chickens and trying to second think everything we say then the groups going to end up as being about nothing but Dumbledore's Gleam and Thestrals and the trouble maker will have managed to destroy the group without having to do anything more than make some threats! K "The Loudest Noise Comes From The Electric Minerva." From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 22:45:00 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 22:45:00 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall Road and the Elixir of Life ( was The Diary (just where did V get In-Reply-To: <002e01c3be8c$74d32780$18e66151@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86841 Steve wrote: The intention of this essay is not to suggest that the orphanage is in Chepstow. It is to suggest where Rowling may have gotten her ideas for names of streets. We have the orphanage pegged in London, right down to the actual place, although the real one wasn't a bad place at all. Ffred: Do you mean here that JKR got the idea of the orphanage from one in London, or that Tom Riddle was incarcerated in one in London? If the latter, then I'd be interested to know how he actually got there - my reading suggested that Hangleton was in the North of England, which would have meant that Tom's mother would have either had to have trekked down to London to give birth (in which case, how does Tom find out the story of his parentage, given that the one person who could have told him was long dead) or alternatively that she gave birth and died in the Hangleton area and Tom was placed in the local workhouse orphanage (where he could by several means have found out his history, but where he would have resided until he left school - there wouldn't have been a logical means for him to have been transferred to another orphanage in London). Carol: I was under the impression that Little Hangleton was Tom's father's home town. That doesn't necessarily mean that it was his mother's as well. They could have met and married in London, with Tom Sr. leaving his wife and her unborn baby and returning to Little Hangleton after finding out that she was a witch. The baby would then have been born in London and placed in a London orphanage, well out of his father's sight. Tom Sr. would have been even more concerned than Vernon Dursley with making sure that no one connected him in any way with magic or witchcraft and particularly with a child who might start displaying magical powers. A local orphanage where young Tom's identity would be known would not have provided that concealment. It makes much more sense to me that the orphanage was in London (somewhere near Vauxhall Road). Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 23:03:38 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 23:03:38 -0000 Subject: Arthurs Wound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86842 Linnea wrote: > > This sounds to me more like the Basilisk (huge fangs) wound. > Linnea again: > "He reared high from the floor...plunging his fangs deeply...feeling > the ribs splinter beneath his jaws"... and that is canon. Not your > typical snake bite. In fact, I can think of no snake I ever heard of > that can break your ribs by biting you. No biggy I guess since LV > certainly could have charged Nagini up magically. > Carol: As I said in another post, the basilisk is dead and another one would be hard to come by, but maybe the snake is Voldemort himself transformed? In his dream, Harry is in the snake's mind, which makes sense to me only if the snake *is* Voldemort. That would account for its size, its power, its intelligence. It would also be consistent with the transformations that Voldemort underwent between 1945 and 1970 that resulted in his present snakelike appearance. Yet another unregistered animagus, but Voldemort has broken every other law of the WW. Why not that one as well? Carol From persephone_kore at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 23:32:01 2003 From: persephone_kore at yahoo.com (persephone_kore) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 23:32:01 -0000 Subject: A Wizard's Age In-Reply-To: <3FD63310.6020404@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86843 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > > > ladyramkin2000 wrote: > > It is a given that the lives of witches and wizards are > > considerably longer than those of muggles. I was wondering if > > someone born into a muggle family , who is offered a place at > > Hogwarts and, for some reason, refuses it, Jazmyn wrote: > I think people are totally misunderstanding WHY wizards live > longer. Its not genetics, its magic. People keep forgetting about > the MAGIC! There are potions and spells to extend life and cure > most ills that would shorten life. A muggle wife/husband of a > wizard would no doubt live longer too as they would have the > benefits of magical healing and life extension. > > You would live longer too if you had access to things powerful > enough to regrow bones overnight and regenerate cells. Not to > mention things like the potion made from the Philosopher's stone > that can make a person immortal. Though that one is a lot harder > to get without the stone. There are most likely a lot of life > extending potions that don't make you immortal, but just shave a > few years off once in a while. The specifically life-extending potions are possible, I'd imagine -- perhaps they're also the antidote to overdoses of the aging potions the twins (I think they were the ones) used to try to get their names into the Goblet. ;) And I do agree that much of it is probably the magical medical treatment. On the other hand, several things do suggest the possibility of wizards' having a certain amount of additional sturdiness or resistance to injury -- blunt-force trauma in particular -- and it isn't too far-fetched to attribute part of the slowed aging to, well, the magic. *g* Meaning the /intrinsic/ magic in the person's body in addition to the medical applications of it. PK From persephone_kore at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 23:39:09 2003 From: persephone_kore at yahoo.com (persephone_kore) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 23:39:09 -0000 Subject: Arthurs Wound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86844 > Carol: > As I said in another post, the basilisk is dead and another one > would be hard to come by, but maybe the snake is Voldemort himself > transformed? In his dream, Harry is in the snake's mind, which makes > sense to me only if the snake *is* Voldemort. That would account for > its size, its power, its intelligence. It would also be consistent > with the transformations that Voldemort underwent between 1945 and > 1970 that resulted in his present snakelike appearance. Yet another > unregistered animagus, but Voldemort has broken every other law of > the WW. Why not that one as well? > Well, I will confess that one of my favorite more whimsical speculations about the future plot of the books involves having Trevor hatch out a perfectly nice (if perhaps ravenous) baby basilisk who would be happy to listen to Harry (nice warm snake-talking mammal person who gives me food, you know).... *coughs* You do have a point about Harry's being IN the snake's mind suggesting that it was Voldemort, though as Nagini was (I believe) described as being quite large (at least of a size more appropriate to one of the big constrictors, though she is venomous), it may also be possible that Voldemort was directing her from inside /her/ mind. Or not. It wouldn't surprise me if he can turn into a snake, though in that case it would also fail to surprise me (but would probably appall some of his fans) to learn that he rather botched his independent study and his current form is a result of not transforming /back/ quite right. ;) PK From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 23:44:37 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 23:44:37 -0000 Subject: Voldimort and snakes (Was: Arthurs Wound) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86845 Carol wrote: > (M)maybe the snake is Voldemort himself > transformed? In his dream, Harry is in the snake's mind, which makes > sense to me only if the snake *is* Voldemort. That would account for > its size, its power, its intelligence. It would also be consistent > with the transformations that Voldemort underwent between 1945 and > 1970 that resulted in his present snakelike appearance. Yet another > unregistered animagus, but Voldemort has broken every other law of the > WW. Why not that one as well? > Constance Vigilance (me): I don't think that the snake is a result of an animagical transformation. Voldy has a skill at parasitically assuming the body of others. He says he used rats in Albania, and we also know what he did to Quirrel. He says that the animals didn't live long with him inside. From the Quirrel experience, we can assume that the rats kept their own minds and personalities but had to bear the essense of Voldy at the same time. My guess is that the same thing happened with the snake. I believe it was Nagini who was the host for Voldy during that episode. Nagini is described as a large snake. Her intelligence would have been her Voldy parasite (Voldysite?) I agree that bone- crunching doesn't sound like something that a snake would do. Of course, snakes in JKR's world talk and point at signs with their tails (and maybe wink, too, but that may be movie contamination), so who knows what powers they might have. Constance Vigilance From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Dec 9 23:51:48 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:51:48 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vauxhall Road and the Elixir of Life ( was The Diary (just where did V get In-Reply-To: References: <3FD59EAC.22060.71A1CB@localhost> Message-ID: <3FD6FAC4.14084.AD8E35@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 86846 On 9 Dec 2003 at 7:50, Geoff Bannister wrote: > Shaun: > > Kennington Lane in Kennington (which is part of London) was known > for a long > > time as Vauxhall Road. I'm not sure when the change occurred - I do > know it was > > still Vauxhall Road as late as 1942. > > > > Geoff: > That's interesting if it's correct. It didn't apparently show up on > the search Linocow mentioned in message 86721. > > I say "if it's correct" because I have just consulted a 1934 London > bus map in my archive and the road is shown as Upper Kennington Lane, > part of the present day Kennington Lane which runs from Vauxhall > Cross (the south side of Vauxhall Bridge) through to the Elephant and > Castle. Yep - which I've also found in older maps as well. It's not until I go back to 1859 that I can find a map that named Vauxhall Road - and it gives it as an alternative name for Kennington Road, rather than Kennington Lane. I *believe* the Vauxhall Baptist Chapel (scene of the Dobkin murder) was located on or near the corner of what is now Kennington Lane and Cottington Street. I believe this area was redeveloped in 1948 and I surmise that the ruined chapel was demolished at that point. This is the area therefore that would seem to have possibly been also known as Vauxhall Road in 1942 - Kennington Lane. As I've said previously, I think the best approach now would be for somebody to look at the Dobkin murder, ideally in contemporary London newspapers - and see if it gives any Vauxhall Road address. That'd be pretty clear evidence that the road was still known as Vauxhall Road at the time. Here in Melbourne, I'm somewhat limited in my ability to check this out - but it's possible I might be able to get into the State Library tomorrow and check their microfilmed newspapers. All I can say for the moment, is this looks plausible as a real London Vauxhall Road, at a time Tom Riddle could have bought a diary. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From angelofthenorth at cantab.net Wed Dec 10 00:06:21 2003 From: angelofthenorth at cantab.net (Angel Moules) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:06:21 +0000 Subject: Little Hangleton Message-ID: <3FD6637D.8060308@cantab.net> No: HPFGUIDX 86847 I've just been doing a bit of digging in my 'Penguin Dictionary of British Place Names' and came up with some thoughts. There is no actual 'Hangletons' mentioned, however there are 'Hanging --' places, where the Hanging part implies a place at the top of the hill. However, in both cases the Hanging is to distinguish from 'Little' which is typically at the bottom of the hill. However, what we can garner from the books suggests that Little Hangleton is at the top of the hill. Angel From christianrooster at hotmail.com Wed Dec 10 00:37:42 2003 From: christianrooster at hotmail.com (Mark) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:37:42 -0000 Subject: A Wizard's Age In-Reply-To: <3FD63310.6020404@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86848 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > > > I think people are totally misunderstanding WHY wizards live longer. Its > not genetics, its magic. People keep forgetting about the MAGIC! There > are potions and spells to extend life and cure most ills that would > shorten life. A muggle wife/husband of a wizard would no doubt live > longer too as they would have the benefits of magical healing and life > extension. > But as you see through the books, they're not any more moral or wise than your average muggle. Well, if this is the case, perhaps it's close to one of the cental themes in the books. You see, at the end of OOP, there was this discussion about fear of death - and how that's V's greatest weakness. Perhaps it's a general weakness in the entire WW too! Perhaps DD has personal knowledge about this since he's already quite old, yet spry. The reason they use life enhancing magic is they fear death. Perhaps not as much as the Ghosts, but still to an unhealthy extent. It might also explain why some families are dying out - with an extended life there's no urgency to procreate. Sort of like the Elves in the Lord of the Rings. Mark From LinneaLand at CS.com Tue Dec 9 15:27:01 2003 From: LinneaLand at CS.com (thelinnealand) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 15:27:01 -0000 Subject: marriage in families and WW generations In-Reply-To: <15c.28bf8f7c.2d07416f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86849 Carin writes: > snip < Cousin marriages were normal among the Muggle landed classes in Britain into the 19th century. >>> Linnea: Pre-arranged marriages aside, think of Hagrid's parents for a minute. Love is, after all, where you find it. From kelleythompson at gbronline.com Wed Dec 10 00:58:04 2003 From: kelleythompson at gbronline.com (Kelley) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:58:04 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: The discussion of the situation... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86850 Hi, everyone -- We want to thank everyone who has sent messages of support, suggestions, and offers of assistance. We appreciate it very much! We do need to point out, however, that the Main List is for posts about the *books*, so we must ask that no further posts about the situation are sent to this list. This goes for the OT-Chatter list, as well. If you have comments or suggestions, please post them to HPFGU- Feedback: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPfGU-Feedback/ or write to the List Elves: hpforgrownups-owner@ yahoogroups.com Thank you all for understanding. For the record, discussion of the treatment of sexuality and sexual issues in connection with the books (including discussion about whether JKR will or should address these issues) is on-topic for the lists. It can be an emotionally charged topic, however, and the list elves monitor such threads closely to ensure that the discussion remains civil and appropriate for a PG-13 audience, as we do have many teenagers among our members. Thank you, and carry on! Warmly, The List Admin Team From rredordead at aol.com Wed Dec 10 01:38:50 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 01:38:50 -0000 Subject: A response. Was ADMIN: Possible Threat to the HPFGU Family of Lists In-Reply-To: <000001c3be5e$3a99b120$99ee79a5@Einstein> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86851 I hope and ask that this post make it on the list. I'm just getting home and catching up on the posts and I feel I should be aloud one response as I was the one who started the whole Sexual Temptation thread. Most of the content of this post is related to the Harry Potter, and to comments made in other posts. If my thread has offended or scared anyone that was not my intention. But the suggestion that I was encouraging and beginning a discussion of sex with a minor is wrong. As I said in my original post, the age of consent in the UK is 16 years old. And as of the first chapter of the next book, Harry Potter will be a 16 year old British boy, in a story set in Britain, all written by a British author! For all you Americans out there (and I suspect those of you made nervous by my thread are Americans, no offence intended), this means as a 16 year old, Harry is able, if he chooses, to have sex with whomever he likes, whenever he likes and as often as he likes and no one will be charged with corrupting an minor or statutory rape. I'm also annoyed because I'm surprised that mine and subsequent posts are getting readers nervous when this is not the first time threads have contained strong sexual themes. I remember a thread a while ago about the suggestion of Umbridge being raped by the Centaurs. Interesting and very disturbing. But I ask, is it really more scary to discuss the seduction of a legally consenting young man by an older woman, than bestiality and sexual torture? Which is more likely to get the site shut down? OK now I am off topic. Anyway that's it for now. I find I can't go any further with out going off topic and I would like this to be posted for all to read. Let's all get back to enjoying HP. :-) Mandy, a grown-up writing to grown-ups on a grown-up web site From oppen at mycns.net Wed Dec 10 01:44:56 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 19:44:56 -0600 Subject: Trelawney the fraud? Message-ID: <004301c3bebf$384b5d40$a94b0043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 86852 I think that Professor Trelawney isn't so much a fraud as a person who, not unlike Luna Lovegood, believes a lot of things that probably aren't so. She _believes in_ her powers as a Seeress, but the real Seeings come only very, very rarely, and she feels that she has to eke them out with her "fortune-teller" act. She does this partly to keep people in awe of her, and partly to remind them that she _is_ a Seeress. (You know, I wonder how well she'd do with ordinary witches' skills...can she duel her way out of a paper bag, is she any good at Transfiguration...?) As for why she's at Hogwarts, I think that not only did Dumbledore want to protect her from people who'd have wanted to abduct her and torture her for information, but to expose the students to the methods of Divination, on the chance that one or another student might "click" with them. She does seem to know her stuff about things like crystallomancy (crystal-ball reading), tea-leaf reading, and other things along those lines, and a familiarity with them can't hurt and might help. --Eric, who wanted to punch Umbridge right in her mouth in the scene where she was sacking Trelawney, despite his belief that Hermione was mostly right about Trelawney. From prongs at marauders-map.net Wed Dec 10 02:13:49 2003 From: prongs at marauders-map.net (Silver Stag) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 21:13:49 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldimort and snakes (Was: Arthurs Wound) References: Message-ID: <00ae01c3bec3$409877e0$0201a8c0@bettysue> No: HPFGUIDX 86853 L.O.O.N point from a non-loon, well not officially one anyway Constance Vigilance: (cool name btw) Of course, snakes in JKR's world talk and point at signs with their tails (and maybe wink, too, but that may be movie contamination), so who knows what powers they might have. Now me, SilverStag: Just in case anyone's wondering, the winking snake isn't movie contamination. SS2: Harry's watching the snake. The snake suddenly opened its beady eyes. Slowly, very slowly, "it raised its head until its eyes were on a level with Harry's. It winked." Just a quick tip in case anyone else was confused and didn't have books handy. Bettty, who'll now go back to her corner of lurkdom. Sailing on SAD DENIAL Sirius' Awful Death Didn't End Neatly: It's A Lie! (coined by Tabouli) and cuddling a STUFFED BEAR Sirius: True Unselfish Friend For Ever! Deserves Better End And Revival! (coined by TerryLJ) SILK GOWNS: Suspiciously Insane Longbottoms, the Key is the Gum Or Wrappers that Neville Saves. (coined by RSFJenny) Weasley can save anything, He never leaves a single ring, That's why Gryffindors all sing: Weasley is our King. Weasley is our King, Weasley is our King, He didn't let the Quaffle in, Weasley is our King. . . Visit my website for more Harry Potter quotes. OOTP will be done as soon as I can find the time. http://www.marauders-map.net From zanelupin at yahoo.com Wed Dec 10 02:34:03 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 02:34:03 -0000 Subject: Trelawney the fraud? In-Reply-To: <004301c3bebf$384b5d40$a94b0043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86854 Eric wrote: >As for why she's at Hogwarts, I think that not only did Dumbledore want to protect her from people who'd have wanted to abduct her and torture her for information, but to expose the students to the methods of Divination, on the chance that one or another student might "click" with them. She does seem to know her stuff about things like crystallomancy (crystal-ball reading), tea-leaf reading, and other things along those lines, and a familiarity with them can't hurt and might help.< KathyK: I'm going to point out before anyone else does that Dumbledore says (OoP, US 840): "I had gone there to see an applicant for the post of Divination teacher, though it was against my inclination to allow the subject of Divination to continue at all. The applicant, however, was the great-great-granddaughter of a very famous, very gifted Seer, and i thought it common politeness to meet her. I was disappointed. It seemed to me that she had not a trace of the gift herself. I told her, courteously I hope, that I did not think she would be suitable for the post. I turned to leave." Initially I was going to argue Dumbledore only kept Trelawney around because of the prophecy as he seemingly had no love for the subject, and even if he did Trelawney would be a substandard choice for the position. But as I read the quote, I began to think maybe Dumbledore reconsidered his view on Divination. If this seemingly talentless seer could produce a true prophecy from time to time, perhaps it was a subject worth keeping around. And as Eric mentioned, she does have good knowledge of her subject matter. Plus, what other position could Dumbledore conceivably give her other than Divination if she were to stay at Hogwarts these sixteen years? Why not let the children explore the subject? I'm about to repeat Eric's post so I'll move on to one final thing. I'll admit it surprised me a great deal that Dumbledore, who seems to represent the tolerant side of the WW, would dismiss a subject and indeed discontinue the subject at Hogwarts. Why would Dumbledore discourage the study of any subject? Then again, in a sense it does seem like a Dumbledore sort of decision, as he was headmaster of Hogwarts during Voldemort's reign. Perhaps he felt there were other subjects that merited more attention than Divination. In this instance, Trelawney's prophecy pertaining specifically to Voldemort, could have taught him a lesson about what he deems worthwhile versus what may actually be valuable. KathyK, feeling a little rusty and hoping she made some sense From aldhelm at earthlink.net Wed Dec 10 01:07:36 2003 From: aldhelm at earthlink.net (carin_in_oh) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 01:07:36 -0000 Subject: marriage in families and WW generations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86855 > I, Carin wrote: > > snip < > Cousin marriages were normal among the Muggle landed classes in > Britain into the 19th century. >>> > And Linnea replied: > > Pre-arranged marriages aside, think of Hagrid's parents for a minute. > > Love is, after all, where you find it. And I reply in turn: Hey, by "normal" I didn't mean "obligatory for everyone", just common enough in certain classes not to be surprising if we find it in a family tree, or if we hypothesize that such a match might have been envisioned for some of our favorite and least favorite cousins. Carin From silverdragon at ezweb.com.au Wed Dec 10 03:01:58 2003 From: silverdragon at ezweb.com.au (silverdragon at ezweb.com.au) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:01:58 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldimort and snakes (Was: Arthurs Wound) References: Message-ID: <013d01c3beca$227155f0$73984cca@Monteith> No: HPFGUIDX 86856 > Constance Vigilance (me): > > I don't think that the snake is a result of an animagical > transformation. Voldy has a skill at parasitically assuming the body > of others. He says he used rats in Albania, and we also know what he > did to Quirrel. He says that the animals didn't live long with him > inside. From the Quirrel experience, we can assume that the rats kept > their own minds and personalities but had to bear the essense of > Voldy at the same time. My guess is that the same thing happened with > the snake. I believe it was Nagini who was the host for Voldy during > that episode. Nagini is described as a large snake. Her intelligence > would have been her Voldy parasite (Voldysite?) I agree that bone- > crunching doesn't sound like something that a snake would do. Of > course, snakes in JKR's world talk and point at signs with their > tails (and maybe wink, too, but that may be movie contamination), so > who knows what powers they might have. And part of the potion Voldemort used to sustain himself during his time without a particularly serviceable body was venom obtained from Nagini. It's conceivable that some changes were made to both beings (Voldy and Snake) during his time in Albania; Voldy's from the venom, and Nagini's from possibly being possessed by Voldy. Nox From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Dec 10 03:05:49 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 03:05:49 -0000 Subject: Trelawney the fraud? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86857 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > > I'll admit it surprised me a great deal that Dumbledore, who seems > to represent the tolerant side of the WW, would dismiss a subject > and indeed discontinue the subject at Hogwarts. Why would > Dumbledore discourage the study of any subject? Then again, in a > sense it does seem like a Dumbledore sort of decision, as he was > headmaster of Hogwarts during Voldemort's reign. Perhaps he felt > there were other subjects that merited more attention than > Divination. In this instance, Trelawney's prophecy pertaining > specifically to Voldemort, could have taught him a lesson about what > he deems worthwhile versus what may actually be valuable. JenR: I suspect Dumbledore was more appreciative of the type of Divination the centaurs believe in, rather than the 'fortune- telling' of someone like Trelawney. He may have only been re- evaluating the "crystal-ball-and-tea-leaves" type Divination class, and suspected Trelawney would be that kind of teacher. Then, like you said Kathy, he re-evaluated the role of Divination after the Prophecy. It still bugs me though, that DD was so dismissive of Trelawney in POA when he and Harry were discussing her second Prophecy. Harry mentions she "went very--very strange" and DD says, "Er--stranger than usual, you mean?" (POS, chap. 22, p. 426) Later after Harry tells him about the second Prophecy he makes the comment about "That brings her total of real predictions up to two. I should offer her a pay raise..." That was demeaning, to say that in front of a student! The only other adult he seems to treat this way is Snape (end of POA). He seems to have more of a parent/child relationship with both of them. Jen, who supposes Dumbledore is allowed a mistake now and again while he's trying to save the WW ;). From hermowninny719 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 10 03:06:06 2003 From: hermowninny719 at yahoo.com (hermowninny719) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 03:06:06 -0000 Subject: John Weasley? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86858 As I am fairly new at obsessing about the Potterverse, I was reading some old interviews with JKR the other evening. I found the following Q & A in a online chat at scholastic.com (February 3,2000)... Q. Do you take real people you know and put them in your books? A. The closest I've come to putting a real person in my books is with Gilderoy Lockhart, who is an exaggeration of someone I once knew. John Weasley is a little bit like my oldest friend, a man I was at school with, whose name is Sean. But neither of them are accurate portraits. Who is John Weasley? Could JKR have possibly changed the name of a character at this point (after PoA)? Could John be the missing Weasley and JKR just slipped in giving his name? Any other thoughts? I have searched the archives and "Fantastic Posts" and haven't found where this has been discussed before. If it has, please direct me. -Hermowninny From erinellii at yahoo.com Wed Dec 10 03:14:31 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 03:14:31 -0000 Subject: John Weasley? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86859 "hermowninny719" : I found the following Q & A in a online chat at scholastic.com (February 3, 2000)... > > Q. Do you take real people you know and put them in your books? > A. John Weasley is a little bit like my oldest friend, a man I was at school with, whose name is Sean. But neither of them are > accurate portraits. > > Who is John Weasley? Could JKR have possibly changed the name of a > character at this point (after PoA)? Could John be the missing > Weasley and JKR just slipped in giving his name? Any other thoughts? Erin: I think Scholastic must have gotten it wrong, I've only seen that quote as Ron Weasley. Here is the best place to look at the interviews, if you're interested: http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/ Erin From megalynn44 at hotmail.com Wed Dec 10 03:44:18 2003 From: megalynn44 at hotmail.com (megalynn44) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 03:44:18 -0000 Subject: Arthurs Wound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86860 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Linnea wrote: > > > > This sounds to me more like the Basilisk (huge fangs) wound. > > > Linnea again: > > "He reared high from the floor...plunging his fangs deeply...feeling > > the ribs splinter beneath his jaws"... and that is canon. Not your > > typical snake bite. In fact, I can think of no snake I ever heard of > > that can break your ribs by biting you. No biggy I guess since LV > > certainly could have charged Nagini up magically. Now me: Back in the summer, I posted the idea, which I am sure many people share, that Voldemort is an animagus. I mean is it really unexpected for him to be an unregistered animagus. With his ego, becoming an animagus would just be another badge for him to grab. And you you think of an animal better suited to Tom than a huge snake? Megs From hermowninny719 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 10 03:52:18 2003 From: hermowninny719 at yahoo.com (hermowninny719) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 03:52:18 -0000 Subject: John Weasley? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86861 Hermowninny (me) wrote: I found the following Q & A in a online chat at scholastic.com (February 3, 2000)... Q. Do you take real people you know and put them in your books? A. John Weasley is a little bit like my oldest friend, a man I was at school with, whose name is Sean. But neither of them are accurate portraits. Who is John Weasley? Could JKR have possibly changed the name of a character at this point (after PoA)? Could John be the missing Weasley and JKR just slipped in giving his name? Any other thoughts? Then Erin responded: I think Scholastic must have gotten it wrong, I've only seen that quote as Ron Weasley. Here is the best place to look at the interviews, if you're interested: http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/ Now Hermowninny again: Thanks for the link, it looks like a great site. I will be spending a lot of time there. However, I checked the interview in question and it still says "John Weasley." Therefore, my original questions stand. Anyone have any ideas? -Hermowninny From steve at hp-lexicon.org Wed Dec 10 05:29:40 2003 From: steve at hp-lexicon.org (hp_lexicon) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 05:29:40 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall Road and the Elixir of Life ( was The Diary (just where did V get In-Reply-To: <005f01c3bee0$ab621730$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86862 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > > There are a very limited number of directions you can travel 200 miles in > from Little Whinging. Assuming that Rowling's Britain is a copy of the real world version, Little Whinging has to be located in the small section of Surrey north of the Thames. That's the only part of Surrey which was reached via Paddington Station in early 1990, and in book one Harry and Hagrid returned to Privet Drive after the day in Diagon Alley by way of Paddington. Detailed maps of Little Whinging and the house interior and overall map of the property are now in the Lexicon, thanks to Dominik, who spent hours tramping through those neighborhoods, making notes, and even dragging a trunk down the street to find out if the distances on the neighborhood map made sense! Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon From steve at hp-lexicon.org Wed Dec 10 05:55:06 2003 From: steve at hp-lexicon.org (hp_lexicon) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 05:55:06 -0000 Subject: John Weasley? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86863 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermowninny719" wrote: > Thanks for the link, it looks like a great site. I will be spending > a lot of time there. > > However, I checked the interview in question and it still says "John > Weasley." Therefore, my original questions stand. > > Anyone have any ideas? The QQQ version of the interview is almost certainly copied verbatim from the Scholastic version, so an error in one would logically be duplicated in the other. In the actual chat, Rowling was telling someone what to type, and it is almost 100% certain that this person simply misheard and mistyped her response. The way the question is answered doesn't suggest anything unusual being said, and believe me, that would definitely have been something unusual. That interview was in 2000, just before Goblet of Fire came out, so the characters were well known. If she'd actually dropped a name like that, there would be a huge reaction. In fact, I remember clearly when that interview happened, and we on this list went over the transcripts with a fine-tooth comb. Some of our list members were even present at the chat, as I recall. If she had really said John, we'd have been all over it. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 10 06:15:58 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 06:15:58 -0000 Subject: John Weasley? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86864 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermowninny719" wrote: > Hermowninny (me) wrote: > I found the following Q & A in a online chat at scholastic.com > (February 3, 2000)... > Q. Do you take real people you know and put them in your books? > A. John Weasley is a little bit like my oldest friend, a man > I was at school with, whose name is Sean. But neither of them are > accurate portraits. > > Who is John Weasley? Could JKR have possibly changed the name of a > character at this point (after PoA)? Could John be the missing > Weasley and JKR just slipped in giving his name? Any other > thoughts? > > > Then Erin responded: > I think Scholastic must have gotten it wrong, I've only seen that > quote as Ron Weasley. Here is the best place to look at the > interviews, if you're interested: > http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/ > > Now Hermowninny again: > Thanks for the link, it looks like a great site. I will be spending > a lot of time there. > > However, I checked the interview in question and it still says "John > Weasley." Therefore, my original questions stand. > > Anyone have any ideas? > > -Hermowninny Carol: I'm sure that Erin is right, not only because of the general accuracy of the site she posted the link to ( I've seen small errors there, but none worth mentioning) but because there's no John Weasley in the books. Ron, on the other hand, could quite easily be based on her oldest friend, just as Hermione is based on her younger self. It makes sense to me that the man to whom she dedicated her book would be the one on whom she based Harry's best friend. Carol From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Wed Dec 10 07:31:58 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 07:31:58 -0000 Subject: Harry and Neville: Brothers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86866 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Derek: > Okay, a bizarre thought just hit me. With all the emphasis on > twins in the HP books, and with both Harry and Neville born on > the same day, is there any chance they are twins, and that fact > is being hidden from them? > > I've no canon to support this, of course, but it would certainly > be an interesting twist... > > Serena: > It doesn't say they were born on the same day in canon, only they > were both born towards the end of July. > > Carol: > Also Harry closely resembles his father but has his mother's eyes, > whereas Neville resembles his mother (even Lucius Malfoy, who's > never met him, is able to identify him on the spot because of that > resemblance). . There's no need for literal brotherhood or > blood relationships here. The parallels and the contrasts are what > matter. Besides, I really don't think JKR really would have put in the possibility of Harry having been called "Harry Longbottom" if things had gone differently... ^_- --Arcum From erinellii at yahoo.com Wed Dec 10 07:49:48 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 07:49:48 -0000 Subject: John Weasley? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86867 > > Now Hermowninny again: > Thanks for the link, it looks like a great site. I will be spending > a lot of time there. > > However, I checked the interview in question and it still says "John > Weasley." Therefore, my original questions stand. > > Anyone have any ideas? > > -Hermowninny Erin: Larry King Live, October 20th, 2000: UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'd like to know if any of your characters of the "Harry Potter" series are like any real-life characters you've ever met. (END VIDEO CLIP) ROWLING: Right. Yes, a few people were inspired by living people. I have to be careful what I say here because some of my characters aren't too pleasant, but Hermione, who is one of Harry's best friends, she was most consciously based on a real person, and that person was me. She's a caricature of me when I was younger. Ron, who is Harry's other best friend, he's a lot like my oldest friend, who is a man called Sean. I was at school with him and the second book is dedicated to Sean. Erin From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Wed Dec 10 08:38:37 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 08:38:37 -0000 Subject: Pensieve objectivity (was : Looks aren't everything!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86868 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" wrote: Thankyou for your reply Del. You obviously have strong convictions that the pensieve is entirely factual and objective. So with no intention to sway your opinion I will answer your few questions. > First Question Del wrote was: > he didn't learn anything horribly upsetting in DD's memory > (so Crouch's son was condemned by his own father ? So what ? Well, a boy of close to Harry's age is swooped upon by Dementors which are still Harry's greatest fear according to the third task, the adults are sitting around stonefaced allowing it. I think it IS rather horrific. And the argument that Harry doesn't care simply won't wash so much canon about caring compassionate Harry all through GOF.. And yet not so much as a "Harry felt a tiny itsy bitsy twinge of sorrow for the fearful stranger boy" in the pensieve. Valky re the recollection of emotional response: >> It MUST be present in the pensieve. > Del replied: > But who said that the Pensieve records a WHOLE memory ? Nobody. But if it does, of course, you've acknowledge the emotional sense as a part of the whole. So I'd rest my case on that. But you asked another couple of questions so lets continue.... Del said: > DD gave Harry a quick explanation of what a Pensieve is and how it > works, he didn't get into too much detail. Maybe if he had taken > more time, he would have explained that the Pensieve records only > the facts ? Valky: Yeah he might have or not. We are talking about memories though, not a camera. Emotions are also facts. Del also asked: > Maybe he didn't think it necessary for Harry to know more ? Valky: Or JKR thought better of letting us know more you mean ;) Thanks again for the chat. Dont get many replies lately :D From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Wed Dec 10 08:53:33 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 08:53:33 -0000 Subject: Pensieve objectivity (was : Looks aren't everything!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86869 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" > wrote: Hi Carol, Thanks for the reply. > Carol: > As I mentioned before, Harry is *outside* the action as a silent and invisible witness, seeing not only James, Sirius, Remus, and Lily but Snape himself from the outside. He is *not* inside Snape's mind, seeing from his perspective or feeling his emotions. Is his stomach tied in knots as he rushes to get all he knows onto that DADA exam? Valky: Two things 1. EXCELLLENT question. I am afraid there is only one verrrry weak slice of canon that could, subjected to much interpretation, hold up as a response. The sound of Flitwick's tiny squeaky voice calling "five more minutes" made Harry jump. Don't you find that all a little slightly odd? I mean minus the possible intense feeling of urgency I am proposing Harry was experiencing, could Flitwick have made him so much as twitch? By the way. I acknowledge it is weak and hardly an objective argument, haha but hey thats all there is. So as I said before Excellent question. 2. I agree he is not inside Snapes head. He is *inside* the pensieve. As well as *inside* the memory. I can only 100% agree that one is outside the emotions of the memory if he is observing it from outside of the pensieve which, in this case, he is not. Carol: Is he humiliated and enraged as he's > hung upside down? Ok you are arguing really well. I can only offer extremely weak canon that has more than one possible meaning to respond to it. But thanks very much for the chat. Valky From LinneaLand at CS.com Wed Dec 10 05:12:52 2003 From: LinneaLand at CS.com (thelinnealand) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 05:12:52 -0000 Subject: Arthurs Wound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86870 Linnea: This sounds to me more like the Basilisk (huge fangs) wound. "He reared high from the floor...plunging his fangs deeply...feeling the ribs splinter beneath his jaws"... and that is canon. I can think of no snake I ever heard of that can break your ribs by biting you. No biggy I guess since LV certainly could have charged Nagini up magically. Megs: Back in the summer, I posted the idea, which I am sure many people share, that Voldemort is an animagus. I mean is it really unexpected for him to be an unregistered animagus. With his ego, becoming an animagus would just be another badge for him to grab. And you you think of an animal better suited to Tom than a huge snake? Linnea again: I think I am going to go with the possession school of thought. LV has done it before with Quirrel, an Eagle Owl, rats and so forth. It would appear that while "in possession" he can still perform magic, ie apparition, so as to be able to enter the DoM and leave unoticed. Apparently wand magic allows him to have his wand with him wherever? Linnea: whose heart just skipped a beat - a TV ad: LOTR "Return of the King" on 12/17, The Two Towers: The only movie I ever saw the day released. Gandolph (Dumbledore of the West) rides the Balroq through the bowels of Moria. Now the Elves will go to war for the last time... From LinneaLand at CS.com Wed Dec 10 06:01:48 2003 From: LinneaLand at CS.com (thelinnealand) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 06:01:48 -0000 Subject: Kreacher: Prophet, Plotter or Pawn? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86871 In Oop, Out of the Fire, Harry has been talking with Kreacher who duplicitously tells him Sirius is not there. "But you know!" shouted Harry. "Don't you? You know where he is!" The was a moment's silence, then the elf let out his loudest cackle yet. "Master will not come back from the Department of Mysteries!" he said gleefully. "Kreacher and his Mistress are alone again!" And he scurried forward and disappeared... Granted Kreacher knew of the plot to lure Harry to the DoM from his visit with the Malfoys. Granted also that Harry suggested that Sirius was there already. But why, or how, did he know that Sirius would truly go and then not return??? Linnea Lyn NAY uh From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Dec 10 07:49:59 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 07:49:59 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall Road and the Elixir of Life ( was The Diary (just where did V get In-Reply-To: <005f01c3bee0$ab621730$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86872 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: K: > There are a very limited number of directions you can travel 200 miles in > from Little Whinging. East or South are pretty much out (depending on > *exactly* where Little Whinging is) and Hangleton just *sounds* northern. I > agree with whoever said it sounded like a pit village in Co. Durham or > somewhere like that. Geoff: If you accept the Lexicon argument that Little Whinging is on the very northern edge of what is now Surrey then English areas 200 miles away are either in the Lancashire/Yorkshire area or Devon/Cornwall, working on the basis that Hangleton isn't a Welsh name. Strangely, the only "real" Hangletons listed in my road atlas are in Sussex, on the south coast near Brighton!! To me, the general feel of the passage in GOF is of a rural village except for the "dingy" police station in Great Hangleton. The name of the pub - "The Hanged Man" tends to make me think of the West Country and the Monmouth Rebellion but that is purely speculative. Geoff From silmariel at telefonica.net Wed Dec 10 12:29:57 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (a_silmariel) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:29:57 -0000 Subject: [HPFGU-Feedback] Re: ADMIN: Possible Threat to the HPFGU Family of Lists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86873 Carol said: <> Or better, we can select 'Plain Text' instead of 'Html' in the mail options of the group configuration. See? Plain text and no virus, you can use e-mail now and be perfectly safe because this group doesn't admit attachments. No need to fear. IMProfessionalO, 1 of 11000 is a too low rate of infection, if this list were distributing viruses there shoud be at least a few hundred infected. Silmariel From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Wed Dec 10 12:57:25 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:57:25 -0000 Subject: feminist ghosts? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86874 I was chatting with a listee offlist and she observed that there are no female house ghosts in canon. She felt that this was part of the larger pattern of the predominance of male characters (if I read her right). But it got me wondering. Harry's conversation in OoP with Nick gave me the impression that being a ghost isn't something to be proud of, necessarily. It implies that the person feared accepting the reality of his death and whatever lay beyond that. So maybe JKR is paying women a very subtle compliment by suggesting that they are more spiritually mature than men? Myrtle is the only female ghost I can think of-and she clearly has some, shall we say, unresolved issues. I wonder if Bertha Jorkins' ghost is wandering around out there somewhere. Is it a coincidence that none of the ghosts have portraits at Hogwarts? From liz at studylink.com Wed Dec 10 12:12:47 2003 From: liz at studylink.com (liz) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:12:47 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] feminist ghosts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86875 on 10/12/03 1:57 pm, jwcpgh at jwcpgh at yahoo.com wrote: > I was chatting with a listee offlist and she observed that there are > no female house ghosts in canon. The Ravenclaw ghost is The Grey Lady. I'm assuming she's female until canon states otherwise! Liz From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Wed Dec 10 13:17:43 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:17:43 -0000 Subject: feminist ghosts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86876 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > I was chatting with a listee offlist and she observed that there are > no female house ghosts in canon. The Grey Lady is the ghost for Ravenclaw...I don't think this in cannon but in an interview with JKR She felt that this was part of the > larger pattern of the predominance of male characters (if I read her > right). But it got me wondering. Harry's conversation in OoP with > Nick gave me the impression that being a ghost isn't something to be > proud of, necessarily. It implies that the person feared accepting > the reality of his death and whatever lay beyond that. So maybe JKR > is paying women a very subtle compliment by suggesting that they are > more spiritually mature than men? Interesting question---still holds up as it does seem that there are more male ghosts than female ghosts...but it just may be coincidence too. > > Myrtle is the only female ghost I can think of-and she clearly has > some, shall we say, unresolved issues. I wonder if Bertha Jorkins' > ghost is wandering around out there somewhere. Hmm...but who or where would she haunt? > Is it a coincidence that none of the ghosts have portraits at > Hogwarts? I've wondered about this to...I mean for the most part, the ghosts seem to have very little connection to the current world. Other than the Podmore connection, I mean we never hear about what they did in their lives...possibly a comment on how much of what we do in our lives is insignificant in the grand scheme of things? Serena From liz at studylink.com Wed Dec 10 12:20:15 2003 From: liz at studylink.com (liz) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:20:15 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Kreacher: Prophet, Plotter or Pawn? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86877 on 10/12/03 7:01 am, thelinnealand at LinneaLand at CS.com wrote: > In Oop, Out of the Fire, Harry has been talking with Kreacher who > duplicitously tells him Sirius is not there. > > "But you know!" shouted Harry. "Don't you? You know where he is!" > The was a moment's silence, then the elf let out his loudest cackle yet. > > "Master will not come back from the Department of Mysteries!" he said > gleefully. "Kreacher and his Mistress are alone again!" > And he scurried forward and disappeared... > > Granted Kreacher knew of the plot to lure Harry to the DoM from his > visit with the Malfoys. Granted also that Harry suggested that Sirius > was there already. > > But why, or how, did he know that Sirius would truly go and then not > return??? I don't think he did. Kreacher IS part of the plot to lure Harry to the DoM. He deliberately injured Buckbeak so Sirius would be out of the way for his little chat with Harry. His comments are simply designed to make Harry think Voldemort has Sirius, and that Sirius is in mortal peril. If Kreacher appears confident of these facts, whether or not they are true, Harry is more likely to believe him, and so fall into the trap. Liz From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Wed Dec 10 14:32:56 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:32:56 -0000 Subject: FILK: My Lion Hat Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86878 My Lion Hat (OOP, Chap. 19) To the tune of Your Cheatin' Heart (sung by Hank Williams, Elvis Presley, et al.) Hear a MIDI at: http://www.thonotosassafla.com/aucoutry.htm Dedicated to Haggridd THE SCENE: The Great Hall. On the morning of Gryffindor's game against Slytherin, LUNA surprises the Trio with an unconventional show of support. LUNA My lion hat will help you win You'll fly so high `gainst Slytherin I charmed my hat to give a mew My lion hat will roar for you Though folks may point and even laugh We'll proudly roar on your behalf I shoulda made a snake for it to chew My lion hat will roar for you Though folks will gape and even stare I will present unique headwear You'll win, Gryffindor, when you take wing And Ron will be The Lion King And Ron will be The Lion King - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From silmariel at telefonica.net Wed Dec 10 15:32:37 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (silmariel) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:32:37 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Did voldemort mean to allow the DEs to be captured? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200312101632.37041.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 86879 justcarol67: > In any case, I don't think Voldemort intended for the DEs to be > captured. He clearly wanted the prophecy and had made at least two > previous attempts to snatch it (Podmore and Bode). If he didn't, he is more pathetic than I could have imagine. I can think far better strategies to take care of a group of kids, and I'm not a 70 year old absolutely powerful wizard, so if it wasn't a smoke curtain, even to kill Sirius or to rob a timeturner, Voldemort has lost every bit of interest that could have for me. Why caring about Harry's future if Voldie is so lame, Harry should just wait and Voldie would kill himself, in and accident unadvertedly provoqued by Harry, so the prophecy fullfills. If Voldie is so lame, then the second prophecy will never fullfill, because the Dark Lord won't raise more powerfull and terrible. He can't, he is so lame that the best he can do is a terribly low kill-count in wich he loses the mayority of his DE. So I prefer to think that move was intentional and he had a plan B, just to be able to consider that Voldemort isn't so lame. Silmariel From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Dec 10 15:27:56 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 15:27:56 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall Road and the Elixir of Life ( was The Diary (just where did V get In-Reply-To: <3FD6FAC4.14084.AD8E35@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86880 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: Shaun: > I *believe* the Vauxhall Baptist Chapel (scene of the Dobkin murder) was located > on or near the corner of what is now Kennington Lane and Cottington Street. I > believe this area was redeveloped in 1948 and I surmise that the ruined chapel > was demolished at that point. > > This is the area therefore that would seem to have possibly been also known as > Vauxhall Road in 1942 - Kennington Lane. Geoff: I think we may have cracked it!! Shaun's bit of info above looks like the last piece of the jigsaw. We have dogged Tom Riddle's footsteps to the right area. By coincidence, I am a Baptist. However, checking my current Baptist Union directory, there is no Vauxhall Baptist Church. With a bit of shrewd browsing this afternoon, I can confirm Shaun's theory that the address of Vauxhall Baptist Church was Cottington Street. Now, in my post 86803, I said that, from my 1934 bus map information, the only possibility seemed to be that Vauxhall Road had to be the section of the present Kennington Lane east of the crossing with Kennington Road running up to Newington Butts on the approach to Elephant and Castle. Guess where Cottington Street is? It is about halfway along along this stretch of road. So now I think we know where Tom Riddle walked along to get his diary. Further to my post, it is indeed only a couple of hundred yards from the Northern Line Tube station at Kennington. QED. Geoff From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Wed Dec 10 15:25:53 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:25:53 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] feminist ghosts? References: Message-ID: <3FD73B01.3050802@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86881 liz wrote: > on 10/12/03 1:57 pm, jwcpgh at jwcpgh at yahoo.com wrote: > > > I was chatting with a listee offlist and she observed that there are > > no female house ghosts in canon. > > The Ravenclaw ghost is The Grey Lady. I'm assuming she's female until canon > states otherwise! > > Liz > Somehow the mental image of the Grey Lady being a cross-dressing man is now stuck in my head. Now there's a ghost with issues. Being as we have not seen a lot of ghosts yet in the books and all of them at Hoggwart's, its impossible to say how many male or female ghosts there are in canon as we are seeing only a small percentage of the total. Its like saying there are more male wizards then female based on what few 'on camera' people we hear about in the books. There are TONS of unnamed ones we never hear about, after all. JKR can't include everyone in the books or it would be impossible to keep up with them all. I already have trouble keeping track of all the characters in Anne McCaffrey books as she has the habit of flinging out name after name, much less having to keep track of every person in JKR's books.. Jazmyn From RACH911 at aol.com Wed Dec 10 16:23:18 2003 From: RACH911 at aol.com (rach9112000) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:23:18 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Teachers. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86882 We've recently been talking about marriage and romance and was wondering why none of the Hogwarts teachers are married? I know we've touched on this topic before but I can't even think of a teacher that has a partner at all. This does seem strange. I went to boarding school also and a lot of the teachers there were married or had partners. The closest we've come to seeing any teacher romance is simply our own speculation on Snape and Lily Potter which is not even in canon. Just seems weird that's all, Rachel From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Wed Dec 10 17:50:10 2003 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 17:50:10 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Teachers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86883 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rach9112000" wrote: > We've recently been talking about marriage and romance and was > wondering why none of the Hogwarts teachers are married? "K": A few of the teachers have been married. Comic Relief March 2001 Live Chat Sheila McCleary - Have any of the Hogwarts professors had spouses? Good question - yes, a few of them but that information is sort of restricted - you'll find out why.~~~ As usual it's all a mystery! "K" From rredordead at aol.com Wed Dec 10 18:17:22 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:17:22 -0000 Subject: Did voldemort mean to allow the DEs to be captured? In-Reply-To: <200312101632.37041.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86884 > justcarol67 wrote: > In any case, I don't think Voldemort intended for the DEs to be > captured. He clearly wanted the prophecy and had made at least two > previous attempts to snatch it > Silmariel wrote: > If he didn't, he is more pathetic than I could have imagine. I can > think far better strategies to take care of a group of kids, Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86885 "jwcpgh" wrote: I was chatting with a listee offlist and she observed that there are no female house ghosts in canon. > > "Serena Moonsilver" wrote: The Grey Lady is the ghost for Ravenclaw...I don't think this in cannon but in an interview with JKR Carol responds: Here's what the Lexicon says on this question: "The Grey Lady (Ravenclaw ghost) (SS12) "Very little is known about the Grey Lady apart from the fact that she is very tall and she is the resident ghost of Ravenclaw. Harry and Ron encounter her gliding past in the corridor while out looking for the Mirror of Erised (SS12). According to a letter written by JKR to Nina Young, the Grey Lady is "a highly intellectual young lady" and a woman with strong scholarly or literary interests. "She never found true love as she never found a man up to her standards." "So how do we know that the Grey Lady is the Ravenclaw ghost? JKR showed a page from her notebook in a televised interview. Clearly visible on that page was the list of house ghosts which indicated that the Ravenclaw ghost was the Grey Lady. . . ." Here's the link if you want it: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/hogwarts_ghosts.html The reference in SS/PS Ch. 12 says only, "They passed the ghost of a tall witch gliding in the opposite direction (SS p. 210, near the end of the chapter). This in itself doesn't prove that the ghost in question is the Grey Lady or that she's the house ghost of Ravenclaw, but I see no reason to question the Lexicon here. In any case, we do have a canonical reference to a female ghost other than Moaning Myrtle. JKR's description of her in the letter sounds remarkably similar to my impression of Rowena Ravenclaw, the founder of Ravenclaw House. Presumably we'll see a bit more of her in future books given the clear idea of her in JKR's imagination. "jwcpgh"(?) wrote: Myrtle is the only female ghost I can think of-and she clearly has some, shall we say, unresolved issues. I wonder if Bertha Jorkins' ghost is wandering around out there somewhere. Serenamoonsilver(?) wrote: Hmm...but who or where would she haunt? Carol responds: Since Barty Crouch Sr., who cast the memory spell, is dead, and Voldemort presumably has no fear of ghosts, how about Wormtail, who betrayed her to Voldemort? Carol, who hopes that the attributions are correct in this post as they were a bit hard to follow From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Dec 10 19:10:35 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:10:35 -0000 Subject: Did voldemort mean to allow the DEs to be captured? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86886 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > Mandy here: > First why in the world would Lucius Malfoy take such a huge risk in > being involved in the raid? Think about it. You have this very > powerful, highly politically connected, wealthy man who, imo has his > own designs on controlling the WW. Be it from the inside or out. > Why the hell would he risk being exposed by participating in the raid > at all???? He has so much to lose it's ridiculous. Jen R: Lucius covers every angle. He's the one with the back-up plan- -he's playing both sides. He's not a loyal DE, nor a loyal Order member, but he has ways to be "useful" to both sides, and they in turn, are useful for him. Lucius gave something up to participate in the raid, with a long-term goal that he will gain something in the end--what those things are, I can only guess (well, all this is speculation, really ). Lucius will get out of Azkaban rather easily and 'return' to LV, but the trap is laid and Lucius is going to make certain LV is headed toward the final curtain call. Mandy: If he is even > suspected of being connected with the Dark Lord he looses all > credibility with in the Ministry. Fudge and others would sever all > contact with him to protect their interests. Those Lucius has under > the Imperious would become suspect for continuing to support him. > Lucius would fall into powerlessness. Something he would never > willingly accept. Jen R: Now this gives me another idea--what if Lucius'second connection is not with the Order but the MOM? Then he would definitely place himself in a position of power, if he's working with Fudge in an attempt to overthrow both the Order and LV! He may have even alerted Fudge to the fact LV is back, but been behind the scenes orchestrating the trail of mishaps that the Order members and DE's were both prone to througout OOTP. Lucius led the failed attempt to obtain the Prophecy, perhaps inadvertently aiding the Order in luring LV to the MOM? Mandy: > Of course the DE's expected to be successful and pull of a quick get > in, make Harry lift off the orb, deliver both orb and boy to the Dark > Lord and get out. But we're talking about the Ministry of Magic! > Even if they were successful don't you think there would be way of > tracing who was inside? Some sort of magical eye/camera? OK maybe > not. The Ministry seems to have a lack of security, even the Order > can run around inside guarding doors and spying on every one else > unnoticed. Jen R: It was just *too* easy, wasn't it? They had inside help. You know who I'm betting on! Lucius can certainly buy off a few security guards or Fudge willingly assisted him. And if the DE's are so competent they managed to raid the MOM alone and overthrow security measures, then I find it hard to believe they couldn't handle the kids. Jen, certain Lucius is up to something fishy but can only speculate as to what that might be... From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Wed Dec 10 18:58:03 2003 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:58:03 -0000 Subject: feminist ghosts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86887 jwcpgh wrote: > Is it a coincidence that none of the ghosts have portraits at > Hogwarts? Actually, it is not stated in canon that the ghosts do not have portraits. We may not have seen any of their portraits yet, but considering how big Hogwarts is that doesn't mean anything. For example, we didn't see Sir Cadogan or visit the north tower until POA, the third book. There's probably plenty of corridors and rooms. Yolanda From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Dec 10 19:18:35 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:18:35 -0000 Subject: Kreacher: Prophet, Plotter or Pawn? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86888 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "thelinnealand" wrote: > In Oop, Out of the Fire, Harry has been talking with Kreacher > > ...edited... then the elf let out his loudest cackle yet. > > "Master will not come back from the Department of Mysteries!" he said > gleefully. "Kreacher and his Mistress are alone again!" > And he scurried forward and disappeared... > > ...edited... > > But why, or how, did he know that Sirius would truly go and then not > return??? > > Linnea Lyn NAY uh bboy_mn: I've always said the best lie is the truth selectively told. Kreacher said 'Master', meaning Sirius, will not return from the Dept. of Mysteries, which is true because at the moment he said it 'Master' was upstairs tending to Buckbeak. You can't return from a place that you aren't at. So, Kreacher spoke the true, but he spoke is selectively and with malicious intent. He spoke the truth but did so in a way that carried and implication that was the exact opposite of the true. Also, Kreacher may not have know the details of what was going on, he may have simple been ordered to keep Sirius out of the way between this time and that. However, he clearly sees that Harry is desperate to speak with Sirius, and he also see that Harry is desperate for Sirius to NOT be at another specific location. All Kreacher has to do is make his subtle implication, and Harry fills in the blanks, whether correctly or incorrectly, from there. Just a thought. bboy_mn From gawain at ofir.dk Wed Dec 10 16:57:16 2003 From: gawain at ofir.dk (romerskesims) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:57:16 -0000 Subject: Wolfsbane and vampires In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86890 Bridget: > > In all the books I've read wolfsbane has always been used in reference to protection against werewolfs, not vampires. In fact the only mention of it in reference to vampires that I recall is in Belle Lugosi's Dracula. I might be wrong, it does happen, but I'm pretty sure that wolfsbane hasn't been mentioned in any of the HP books in relation to vampires, so I think that the makers of that quiz book probably had knowledge of the dracula connection and used that for the question rather than information actually found in the books. 'Cause I too agree that wolfsbane being a deterant to vampires disproves the Snape is a Vamp theory, which is definately a theory I support. < < Carol: > I would happily supply information that it also kills vampires if > I could do so, since I don't support the Snape as vampire theory, > but as far as I can see, the quiz maker is simply misinformed. I also thought it was a strange question since I have read and re- read the books several times without noticing anything about vampires and wolfsbane. Unfortunately I don't own any of the books, so I started to doubt my memory... About the vampire!snape-theory I just found out (via designerpotions.com) that vampires are classified as "non-wizard part-humans" -that doesn't sound like Snape at all! Tine (I forgot to sign my name in my first post) From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Dec 10 19:35:09 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:35:09 -0000 Subject: John Weasley? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86891 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: Hermowninny: > > Thanks for the link, it looks like a great site. I will be > > spending a lot of time there. > > > > However, I checked the interview in question and it still > > says "John Weasley." Therefore, my original questions stand. > > > > Anyone have any ideas? > > > > -Hermowninny > > Carol: > I'm sure that Erin is right, not only because of the general > accuracy of the site she posted the link to ( I've seen small errors there, > but none worth mentioning) but because there's no John Weasley in the > books. Ron, on the other hand, could quite easily be based on her > oldest friend, just as Hermione is based on her younger self. Geoff: This sounds to me as if the reporter was not a raving HP fanatic like all of us here on HPFGU :-) and just misheard what was said. After all, John could sound very much like Ron. Just another possibility in passing. what's the difference between John and Ron in something like shorthand? Geoff From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 10 19:19:58 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:19:58 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Teachers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86892 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rach9112000" wrote: > We've recently been talking about marriage and romance and was > wondering why none of the Hogwarts teachers are married? I know > we've touched on this topic before but I can't even think of a > teacher that has a partner at all. This does seem strange. I went to > boarding school also and a lot of the teachers there were married or > had partners. The closest we've come to seeing any teacher romance > is simply our own speculation on Snape and Lily Potter which is not > even in canon. > Just seems weird that's all, > Rachel Carol: Doesn't the fact that some of the teachers and staff members are addressed as "Madame" indicate that they are or have been married? Or does it only indicate that they're not professors? Madame Pince is the librarian and Madame Pomfrey is the school "healer" (to use Ron's term), but Madame Hooch is a teacher, albeit, like Hagrid, not a full-fledged professor. But these women are addressed in the same way as Madame Rosmerta, the owner of the Three Broomsticks. Why "Madame" if they're not married? And yet Mrs. Weasley and even the late Mrs. Black go by the ordinary (Muggle-sounding) "Mrs." Maybe "Madame" is used by married women who work outside the home? OTOH, Madame Pomfrey, at least, seems to be needed at all times in case of emergencies, which arise rather frequently at Hogwarts. She, at least, is probably a widow. As for Professor Snape, Professor McGonagall, Professor Flitwick, and Professor Sprout (the heads of the respective houses), Hogwarts seems to be their home and the other professors their "family." We can see occasional cooperation among them against outsiders (McGonagall and Snape seizing the opportunity to expose Lockhart as a fraud in CoS) and at the same time a sort of sibling rivalry among the houses. Several people have mentioned a father/son relationship between Snape and Dumbledore, which I also see to some extent. Regardless of how Snape feels about it, he has a sonlike obligation to do as Dumbledore tells him, and Dumbledore, having had Snape for seven years as a student and fourteen years as his Potions master, could well feel a fatherly affection for him. After all, he's only about 115 years older than Snape. Never having had a loving family, as far as we can see, Snape would consider Hogwarts his home. (There's also Professor Trelawny, for whom Hogwarts is still "home" even after she's deprived of her teaching position.) Why, then, have these people never married and left their "home" and "family"? Maybe for McGonagall and Sprout, teaching is enough to fulfill them intellectually and emotionally? For Flitwick, there may not be many tiny little witches who would be suitable wives, and he, too, seems perfectly content with his life at Hogwarts. And for our complicated Snape, who undoubtedly is *not* happy, there are just too many other urgent demands on his time and energy, from teaching and spying to the unfulfilled life debt to James. Even during his summer vacations before Voldemort's return, when he theoretically could have met the "right" witch, given his Slytherin standards, she would have to be a pureblood and they appear to be hard to come by. Possibly one of his former Slytherin schoolmates would qualify. But Snape's wife would also have to be extremely understanding to put up with all his brooding over old resentments--not a common Slytherin trait. Florence, where are you? Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 10 21:37:56 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 21:37:56 -0000 Subject: Coming of age in the WW Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86893 As an American, I find coming of age at seventeen a strange phenomenon. In Arizona, kids can drive at sixteen and vote at eighteen but can't legally drink alcoholic beverages until twenty-one. I don't know what the age for acquiring a business license is, but it certainly isn't seventeen. So my question is, first, what does coming of age constitute in England and how does this match up with the WW? I know that the Weasley twins can now legally apparate and they no longer need to worry (if they ever did) about getting caught practicing "underage magic." Apparently they and their friend Lee Jordan can now own a business as well. Granted, the twins will turn eighteen in April of the year the next book opens, but to me that still seems very young for such a responsibility (especially given the mischievous personalities of Fred and George). Anyone have any clear idea of what coming of age in the WW actually means and whether some privileges may still be withheld? (I'm not talking about sex here, since that topic is unlikely to surface in th HP books.) Are the twins full-fledged adults in OoP? Can they marry? Can they vote, assuming that the WW has some sort of elected government? Can they legally drink anything stronger than butterbeer? (Is there really such a thing as butterbeer?) Carol, who does not consider the Weasley twins to be adults in any way, shape, or form From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Wed Dec 10 21:32:07 2003 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 21:32:07 -0000 Subject: Kreacher: Prophet, Plotter or Pawn? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86894 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > bboy_mn: > > I've always said the best lie is the truth selectively told. > > Kreacher said 'Master', meaning Sirius, will not return from the Dept. > of Mysteries, which is true because at the moment he said it 'Master' > was upstairs tending to Buckbeak. You can't return from a place that > you aren't at. > > So, Kreacher spoke the true, but he spoke is selectively and with > malicious intent. He spoke the truth but did so in a way that carried > and implication that was the exact opposite of the true. In baroque literature (and the HP books share many aspects with it), "misleading with the truth" is a very appreciated stylistic device. I'm glad you pointed it out concerning what Kreacher tells Harry. And I wonder whether there are not many other examples in the rest of the series. I'm at the moment unable to prove it, but I have the feeling that JKR plays the same game with her readers, and that she already gave us the key of the whole series in one of the books, maybe the very first one. It's there but we don't understand it. Well, I think that I will re-read one more time Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone... Amicalement, Iris From rredordead at aol.com Wed Dec 10 21:58:13 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 21:58:13 -0000 Subject: Are Malfoy and Fudge the real masterminds? wasDid voldemort mean to allow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86895 > Jen R wrote: > Then he would > definitely place himself in a position of power, if he's working > with Fudge in an attempt to overthrow both the Order and LV! He may > have even alerted Fudge to the fact LV is back, but been behind the > scenes orchestrating the trail of mishaps that the Order members and DE's were both prone to througout OOTP. Lucius led the failed > attempt to obtain the Prophecy, perhaps inadvertently aiding the > Order in luring LV to the MOM? Mandy again: I really like your idea here. Could Lucius Malfoy be working with Fudge to destroy both the Order and Voldemort. If could fit. Fudge wants Dumbledore gone and Lucius needs Voldemort off his back. I think Lucius has learned as he grew up he doesn't need an Evil Overlord to take control of the WW but a compliant Minister of Magic will do just as well. In fact better. As Fudge is aboveboard and legal where Voldemort is living on borrowed time so to speak, no bad guy stays in power for long, but a corrupt politician after corrupt politician in Malfoy's pocket could be in power for decades. If Lucius plays his card right he can have as much freedom as he wants to create a WW that suits Lucius idea of perfect. Eventually passing law against, mixed-blood wizard/witches, magical-non-humans and the like. Perhaps they are working together. Malfoy hopes to cause the downfall of LV and the DEs at the DoM. Fudge almost achieves the downfall of Dumbledore using Umbridge at Hogwarts. And ultimately the Order will fall without their beloved leader Dumbledore. Leaving the two of them sitting pretty with no one standing in their way. This could give Fudge the reason to keep Lucius out of jail in book 6. If he can prove Malfoy was working for him to lure Voldemort and the DE's to the DoM in the first place. The question is would Lucius and Fudge have known the Order would have turned up? Or was it a bonus? Dumbledore was already in trouble and Hogwarts was under the control of the Ministry anyway, which we know has been a goal of Malfoy's since CoS. Fudge was well on the way to discrediting Dumbledore and with out Dumbledore the Order would have crumbled. So it could have been a bonus EXCEPT now, if Fudge is not careful, Dumbledore could be seen as the hero of the day not Fudge himself. Another thought is perhaps Lucius could have used Snape and Kreature to encourage the Orders participation, leading to a pitch battle in the Ministry that could only lead to arrests on both sides. WE know the Order was at the Ministry to save Harry but will the WW see it that way? Or will they see the Order as bad as the DEs, also breaking into the Ministry illegally to do heaven knows what? Can Fudge spin that? The only problem with this theory is it renders Voldemort redundant. And if Voldemort is redundant so is Harry Potter and then we have no reason for the books in the first place. ;-) Also having Lucius in jail allows Draco to step up to the plate and slip into his daddy's shoes. Which I really do want to see. Any more thoughts? Mandy, who is loving the idea that Lucius Malfoy is the mastermind behind the whole DoM incident. From sophierom at yahoo.com Thu Dec 11 01:29:56 2003 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 01:29:56 -0000 Subject: Coming of age in the WW/are Fred and George really adults? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86896 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > As an American, I find coming of age at seventeen a strange > phenomenon.In Arizona, kids can drive at sixteen and vote at eighteen but can't legally drink alcoholic beverages until twenty- one. I don't know what the age for acquiring a business license is, but it certainly isn't seventeen> Sophierom: I also find seventeen early for coming of age (and I'm also American, so I can't address this from an English point of view). Voting, drinking, and driving laws in the u.s. make a difference (as Carol rightly pointed out), but I also think the growth in post- secondary education makes our world quite different from the WW. While going off to college is by no means universal in the states, certainly a large percentage of young Americans now go on to get some sort of post-secondary education (66% of 18 and 19 year olds are attending a school of some sort, according to the 2000 census), and this continuation of schooling seems to delay young people's complete independence from parents in many cases. The lack of wizarding colleges (at least, as far as I know there aren't any wizarding universities ... am I wrong about this?) seems to necessitate an earlier age of independence for wizards. It appears that young wizards go directly into the workforce, or, if they have some post-Hogwarts training, they are in more of an apprenticeship/internship situation than a formal educational institute. Carol: >Carol, who does not consider the Weasley twins to be adults in any > way, shape, or form> Sophierom: Actually, I do consider the Weasley twins to be adults. Sure, they're mischevious, but they also have some very good "adult" traits: 1.) the ability to make their dreams a reality(setting up the joke shop); 2.) their ability and willingness to live on their own (sure, everyone wanted to escape Umbridge and her awful ways, but only Fred and George actually formulated a plan and were willing to leave their "comfort" zone ... no matter how uncomfortable Umbridge made it, Hogwarts still gave students a bed to sleep in, food to eat, a roof over their heads, etc.); and 3.) unlike Percy (who may have seemed the most "mature" of the younger Weasley children), Fred and George have the confidence to leave their parents' nest, not out of spite or anger, but out of a desire to make their own mark on the world. As much as Percy might have ambition and drive, he remained under his parents' wings until their falling out. Not only did Percy live with his parents, but he also continued to hide behind his mother's protection anytime Ron, Fred, or George made fun of him. Percy only stakes out his independence because he feels forced to do so. The twins, however, have been planning the joke shop for a long time, and although Mrs. Weasley may disagree with it, I doubt that they'll have a serious falling out like Percy had with his parents. Fred and George, I believe, will still be able to maintain a civil relationship with their parents, despite their disagreements. Naturally, I could be completely wrong about this. And I cannot deny that Fred and George act childisly at times. But I do think that the twins are admirable characters who, if they are not already, will go on to be successful adults. Thanks for the great topic, Carol!(and sorry for snipping many good parts out of your post) Sophierom From aldhelm at earthlink.net Thu Dec 11 01:31:56 2003 From: aldhelm at earthlink.net (carin_in_oh) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 01:31:56 -0000 Subject: Coming of age in the WW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86897 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > So my question is, first, what does coming of age constitute in > England and how does this match up with the WW? > I'm sure our British members will comment on this with more specificity and authority than I can, but I can report what I observed when I lived in England in the 1980's. At least as the educational system was then, a much smaller percentage of the population went on to university than is the case in the US; consequently, relatively few students stayed on at school to do A-levels (ages 17-18). Secondary school was still very much the basic qualification for many trades and jobs, unlike the US where college is becoming more and more obligatory for anything but the least skilled jobs. As a consequence of the job market and the (comparatively) small numbers who expected to go on for a higher degree, 16 was still very much the ordinary school- leaving age - after O-levels, the equivalent of O.W.L.s. I was often surprised to see how very young the junior and trainee-type full-time employees were that I encountered in businesses in the UK - young to my eyes even when I was in my early 20s! It's been my sense in reading the HP books that the WW operates on a similar system, especially since, as we've discussed before, it seems to lack institutions of higher education. Carin From hp at plum.cream.org Thu Dec 11 03:40:45 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 03:40:45 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Coming of age in the WW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20031211031218.00986b10@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 86898 At 21:37 10/12/03 , justcarol67 wrote: >Anyone have any clear idea of what coming of age in the WW actually >means and whether some privileges may still be withheld? (I'm not >talking about sex here, since that topic is unlikely to surface in th >HP books.) Are the twins full-fledged adults in OoP? Can they marry? >Can they vote, assuming that the WW has some sort of elected >government? Can they legally drink anything stronger than butterbeer? >(Is there really such a thing as butterbeer?) Last answer first: no. It's impossible to be certain what "coming of age" means in the Potterverse, partially because under (real) British law, the term simply doesn't exist. The implication of stuff said in GoF and OoP, however, implies that in the Wizarding World, from the age of 17 (rather than 18 in the real world), as of halfway through OoP in the case of the Weasley twins, one has the full rights of any citizen, i.e. considered able to look after one's own affairs. To complete the picture, here's what (real) British law permits at various ages in the place of any unified "coming of age". I suggest that any commentary on this list should go to OT-Chatter as it's of no direct relevance to the books. 10 (earlier if determined by Court specialists) is the minimum age for forming criminal intent (i.e. no child under ten can be held criminally accountable for their actions). 12 is the minimum age to: Buy a pet; See a '12' rated film (or '12A' unaccompanied by a responsible adult) . 14 is the minimum age to: Get a National Insurance number (equivalent to U.S. Social Security number) and thus pay tax on earned income; Engage in paid employment for more than 16 hours per week without express parental and school consent (including school holidays); Go into a pub with an adult (but not drink alcohol); Be fingerprinted by the police (subject to Magistrate's Order); If you are a boy, be convicted of rape and illegal sex with a girl under the age of 16. 15 is the minimum age to: See a '15' rated film; Apply for driving lessons. 16 is the minimum age to: Have consensual sex (with another person of either gender); Leave school; Work full-time; Claim state benefits in your own name; Join a trade union; Drink alcohol in a pub as long as you don't buy it at the bar; Buy cigarettes; Buy lottery tickets; Get married (with parental consent); Take driving test (subject to special dispensation); Own a motor vehicle; Pay adult fares on public transport (unless still at school); Pay prescription charges (unless still at school). 17 is the minimum age to: Take driving test; Go into a betting shop (but not place a bet!) Be tried before an adult court and be sent to prison or fined up to ?2000. 18 is the minimum age for most things, including to: Vote; See an '18' rated film; Gamble; Buy alcohol (retail or in a pub); Marry without parental permission; Own property/land; Sign contracts; Apply for credit cards and loans; Make a will; Serve on a jury; Donate blood/organs. That may (or may not) :-) clarify things for non-Brits. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who is NOT a qualified lawyer and thus possibly out of date on some of the items From LinneaLand at CS.com Wed Dec 10 21:17:41 2003 From: LinneaLand at CS.com (thelinnealand) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 21:17:41 -0000 Subject: Kreacher: Prophet, Plotter or Pawn? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86899 I (Linnea) wrote: In Oop, Out of the Fire, Harry has been talking with Kreacher who duplicitously tells him Sirius is not there: "But you know!" shouted Harry. "Don't you? You know where he is!" The was a moment's silence, then the elf let out his loudest cackle yet. "Master will not come back from the Department of Mysteries!" he said gleefully. "Kreacher and his Mistress are alone again!" And he scurried forward and disappeared... Granted Kreacher knew of the plot to lure Harry to the DoM from his visit with the Malfoys and that Harry suggested Sirius at the MoM. But why, or how, did he know that SB would truly go and not return? Liz: > I don't think he did. Kreacher IS part of the plot to lure Harry to the DoM. He deliberately injured Buckbeak so Sirius would be out of the way for his little chat with Harry. His comments are designed to make Harry think Voldemort has Sirius, and that Sirius is in mortal peril. If Kreacher appears confident of these facts, whether or not they are true, Harry is more likely to believe him, and so fall into the trap. Linnea: Yes, this is certainly true. But is it the whole story? The way that Kreacher says it so "matter of factly" has a ring of well, fact. Kreacher wanted Harry to know that he was in on the plot of LV to kill SB, who was Kreachers acknowleged "sworn" master? (I am referring here to Dobbys comments regarding House Elf enslavement) Alarm bells? Did I miss SB throwing a boot at Kreacher or something? Is Kreacher "free" now to plot against SB? It could be reconciled if, for example, while at the Malfoys, LM had some way of showing Kreacher that SB did indeed die at the MoM. Otherwise... what? That Kreacher's Mistress is a portrait; well, that's not right either. Why? Narcissa and even Bellatrix still live. Extra magic, I guess. And the way he said it. Gleefully. Sure he hated SB; mud-blood lover etc., but it doesn't sound to me like the way he would say it if he was just trying to lure Harry to the MoM. Linnea... left muttering to herself... From lovefromhermione at yahoo.com Thu Dec 11 04:36:03 2003 From: lovefromhermione at yahoo.com (lovefromhermione at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 20:36:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Frankly, my dear In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031211043603.48736.qmail@web40206.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86900 "Kim" wrote: Since JKR has such a fascination for names, and a vivid imagination for coming up with them in her novels, is there any significance to the fact that there are two characters named "Frank": Frank Bryce, the Riddle's gardener, and Frank Longbottom, Neville's father? Or is this just a coincidence, using a very common first name more than once? Loony Loopy responds: I would guess it's a coincidence. The bartender/landlord of the Leaky Cauldron shares a first name with Tom Riddle. Julie adds: Ernie Macmillan and Ernie Prang (the driver on the Knight Bus) also share names. On my first reading of OoP, I remembered thinking that the names seemed to be getting more and more out there. Phineas Nigellus? Kingsley Shacklebolt? In subsequent readings, I didn't give them a second thought, they really are pretty cool. I think that even with all of JKR's love of names, she still likes to be "realistic," and no one goes through life without meeting two people with the same name. They play such minor roles, they don't disrupt the plot with us wondering, "Okay, who is she talking about now?" As with every other tiny detail, it was probably planned. Julie, who is overwhelmed with trying to keep up with all these posts :) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ From spang_b at yahoo.co.in Thu Dec 11 04:39:35 2003 From: spang_b at yahoo.co.in (spang_b) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 04:39:35 -0000 Subject: The Rare Cloaks Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86901 Hi, We know that Harry has an invisibility cloak. And so does Moody. But it seems nobody else( at least in the order) has one, because they are always talking of borrowing Moody's cloak. Are they really that rare? Bye Adi From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Thu Dec 11 10:16:49 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 10:16:49 -0000 Subject: The Rare Cloaks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86902 Adi, I would guess they are very rare. Moody actually has two cloaks, which is probably even rarer, but he does say one is 'better' than the other. I'm not sure what makes one better than the other. What makes me think they are very rare is the fact that the Malfoys don't seem to have one. They do have lots and lots of wizard gold, which Lucius seems to constantly donate to St. Mungo's. So much gold that Lucius Malfoy did pay for seven Nimbus Two-Thousand-and-One brooms just so the Slytherin team would take on Draco as Seeker. If the Malfoys do have one, it's not been mentioned at all in any of the first four books, which I would find odd. At this point, we don't know for sure if Draco knows or suspects that Harry has an invisibility cloak, but I would bet that the minute Draco finds out Harry has an invisibility cloak he'll tell his dad and demand one of his own. If these cloaks can be bought, like at Diagon Alley, I wonder how much they'd cost? And, of course, the off-repeated question, where did James get the cloak he left to Harry? Will we ever find out? Diana L. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "spang_b" wrote: > Hi, > We know that Harry has an invisibility cloak. And so does Moody. > But it seems nobody else( at least in the order) has one, because > they are always talking of borrowing Moody's cloak. Are they really > that rare? > Bye > Adi From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 11 11:37:37 2003 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 11:37:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Polyjuice Potion In-Reply-To: <20031211043603.48736.qmail@web40206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20031211113737.5878.qmail@web25104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86903 U_P_D In the Chamber of Secrets, Harry took Polyjuice Potion with one of Goyle's hairs in it, in order to impersonate him. My Question is: What do you think, would be the result, if someone took Polyjuice Potion with one of Goyle/Harry's hairs in it? Udder Pendragon __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --------------------------------- BT Yahoo! Broadband - Save ?80 when you order online today. Hurry! Offer ends 21st December 2003. The way the internet was meant to be. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Thu Dec 11 10:04:17 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 10:04:17 -0000 Subject: Lucius fears Voldemort Was: Are Malfoy and Fudge the real masterminds? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86904 > > Jen R wrote: > > Then he would > > definitely place himself in a position of power, if he's working > > with Fudge in an attempt to overthrow both the Order and LV! He may > > have even alerted Fudge to the fact LV is back, but been behind the > > scenes orchestrating the trail of mishaps that the Order members > and DE's were both prone to througout OOTP. Lucius led the failed > > attempt to obtain the Prophecy, perhaps inadvertently aiding the > > Order in luring LV to the MOM? > > Mandy wrote: > I really like your idea here. Could Lucius Malfoy be working with > Fudge to destroy both the Order and Voldemort. If could fit. > > Fudge wants Dumbledore gone and Lucius needs Voldemort off his back. > I think Lucius has learned as he grew up he doesn't need an Evil > Overlord to take control of the WW but a compliant Minister of Magic > will do just as well. In fact better. As Fudge is aboveboard and > legal where Voldemort is living on borrowed time so to speak, no bad > guy stays in power for long, but a corrupt politician after corrupt > politician in Malfoy's pocket could be in power for decades. If > Lucius plays his card right he can have as much freedom as he wants > to create a WW that suits Lucius idea of perfect. Eventually passing > law against, mixed-blood wizard/witches, magical-non-humans and the > like. > The only problem with this theory is it renders Voldemort redundant. > And if Voldemort is redundant so is Harry Potter and then we have no > reason for the books in the first place. ;-) Also having Lucius in > jail allows Draco to step up to the plate and slip into his daddy's shoes. Which I really do want to see. Diana: Lucius trying to manipulate any situation to his liking would not surprise me, but I highly doubt he'd try to double-cross Voldemort. The only reason he didn't rush to his Dark Lord's aid before Voldemort's return to his body was because Lucius wasn't sure if Voldemort was even still alive (if you can call it that) in books one through three. Lucius wouldn't have given up his aristocratic lifestyle, status and position for a master that was probably dead and gone. Lucius might well have considered a re-fleshed 16-year- old Tom Riddle less frightening and eligible for manipulation, but we never got to test that theory as Diary!Riddle was destroyed by Harry. I've posted before my observations that Voldemort seems to make some big blunders and I've speculated that Voldemort's many spells that transformed him and made him immortal (before Ak'ing baby Harry) must have dulled his intelligence somewhat, judging by some of his bone-headed actions. But, even if this were the case, Voldemort is still a very scary guy to everyone in the WW. Dumbledore isn't scared of Voldemort for his own sake, but he is frightened for Harry's safety and purposely avoided even looking Harry in the eye for most of OoP for fear that Voldemort could and would manipulate Harry into a position requiring Dumbledore to kill Harry. Lucius, OTOH, backed down against Dobby for goodness sake, so I honestly can't see Lucius trying to double-cross the most powerful wizard in the last 100 years. I mean, Lucius could have AK'd Dobby and then attacked Harry at the end of CoS, but he didn't, did he? He intended to attack Harry right under Dumbledore's nose and was only stopped by a 'lowly' house elf, which tells me that just becase Dumbledore was only a short distance away wouldn't have stopped him if Dobby hadn't of been there. I would guess that Lucius would not want to incur Voldemort's wrath any more than he already did for not coming to Voldemort's aid and lying to MoM about being a DE. Besides Voldemort is quite short of DE's at the end of GoF and he didn't AK all the DEs who'd disappointed him because he really couldn't spare any more of his soldiers right then. I'm sure Lucius knows exactly what Voldemort would do to him and his family if he betrayed him, and as big a jerk Lucius may be, Draco and Narcissa do mean something to him. At some point in the next two books, Lucius may well express some regret at joining up with Voldemort either because of something Voldemort does (killing or torturing Draco/Narcissa or even Lucius himself) or because he has a change of heart (yeah, right), but Lucius is not stupid. He knows that serving the Dark Lord is a life- long commitment. To me, one of Lucius's biggest weakness that has yet to be used against him by either Dumbledore and the Order or Voldemort and the DEs is his tendency to give Draco way too much information. Draco knows about their stash of controversial items under the drawing room floor, which he then blurts out to Crabbe!Ron and Goyle!Harry. Draco also knew, courtesy of his father, that the Chamber of Secrets was going to be opened by the heir of Slytherin and that students were going to be attacked and/or killed. I mean, Draco's known about a lot of stuff Harry, Ron and Hermione have had to find out much later in the books. I could see Draco getting dear old dad into trouble by giving too much away in a future book. That would be so fun to read! In conclusion, Lucius is indeed an evil git seemingly on par with Voldemort at times, but unlike Lucius, Voldemort has no family ties and is apparently incapable of love, even despising love in all forms. Lucius has very good reasons to fear Voldemort and never betray him - his wife and child. I'll write about Fudge in another post. Diana L. From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Dec 11 06:45:45 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 17:45:45 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vauxhall Road and the Elixir of Life ( was The Diary (just where did V get In-Reply-To: References: <3FD6FAC4.14084.AD8E35@localhost> Message-ID: <3FD8AD49.6254.561043@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 86905 On 10 Dec 2003 at 15:27, Geoff Bannister wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" > wrote: > > Shaun: > > I *believe* the Vauxhall Baptist Chapel (scene of the Dobkin > murder) was located > > on or near the corner of what is now Kennington Lane and Cottington > Street. I > > believe this area was redeveloped in 1948 and I surmise that the > ruined chapel > > was demolished at that point. > > > > This is the area therefore that would seem to have possibly been > also known as > > Vauxhall Road in 1942 - Kennington Lane. > > Geoff: > I think we may have cracked it!! Shaun's bit of info above looks like > the last piece of the jigsaw. We have dogged Tom Riddle's footsteps > to the right area. I'm personally still not entirely convinced myself. I think at most what I've found indicates this is a *possible* answer to the Vauxhall Road inconsistency. I'd feel a lot more confident if I could find a contemperaneous reference to Vauxhall Road. At the moment, this theory works if we assume Kennington Lane (or part thereof) was also known as Vauxhall Road. It's not unprecedented for roads in older cities to have names like that - but I can't find any proof this applied to Kennington Lane - just indications. Ideally - I'd love to find the name of the firm Harry Dobkin worked for, then find out its address in contemporary London directories - see if it really was 302 Vauxhall Road. Actually I *have* found one more *possible* indication. Random House, UK, Limited - the publishing company - has a London address of 20 Vauxhall Bridge Road, London. However, I have also seen this address given as 20 Vauxhall Road, London, in numerous places. Now that could just indicate a simple error that's been duplicated. Or it could indicate that the name Vauxhall Road is also legitimate for Vauxhall Bridge Road. Looking at a map, I think this is *possible* I believe all of Vauxhall Bridge Road and Kennington Lane may also be (or have been) legimately named as Vauxhall Road. Evidence for this: (1) Random House address - could be an error, but I have seen the address as both 20 Vauxhall Road and 20 Vauxhall Bridge Road. (2) Reference to the Baptist Chapel being in Vauxhall Road when it is known to have been in Kennington Lane. Both of those are very circumstantial. However: (3) The Victoria Park Plaza - a major London Hotel - is located at 239 Vauxhall Bridge Road. There's been a conference on school transport there this week - and information for that conference has given the address as 239 Vauxhall Road. (4) CVS Consultancy Service, 27-29 Vauxhall Road, London. (5) I've also found reference to the 'Napier Hall, off Vauxhall Road, London" - it's actuall near Vincent Square which is off the Vauxhall Bridge Road. This seems to be an awfully common error - which makes we wonder if it isn't an error at all - just a case of the same street being known by more than one name. I can't be certain here - but this does look at least possible. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Thu Dec 11 09:11:26 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 09:11:26 -0000 Subject: John Weasley? Sean & John? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86906 Hermowninny wrote: > > Thanks for the link, it looks like a great site. I will be > spending > > a lot of time there. > > > > However, I checked the interview in question and it still > says "John > > Weasley." Therefore, my original questions stand. > > > > Anyone have any ideas? > > > > -Hermowninny > > Erin replied: > > Larry King Live, October 20th, 2000: > > UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'd like to know if any of your characters of > the "Harry Potter" series are like any real-life characters you've > ever met. > > (END VIDEO CLIP) > > ROWLING: Right. Yes, a few people were inspired by living people. I > have to be careful what I say here because some of my characters > aren't too pleasant, but Hermione, who is one of Harry's best > friends, she was most consciously based on a real person, and that > person was me. She's a caricature of me when I was younger. Ron, who > is Harry's other best friend, he's a lot like my oldest friend, who > is a man called Sean. I was at school with him and the second book is > dedicated to Sean. Diana: Isn't Sean the Irish form of John? I could see where a transcripter could have misheard the name Ron, and that person being not sure later if what they heard was Ron or John, looked at the character being based on someone named Sean and figured the name must have been John - the English from of Sean. Makes sense to me, anyway. :) Diana L. From derek at rhinobunny.com Thu Dec 11 12:53:18 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 12:53:18 -0000 Subject: The Rare Cloaks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86907 Diana wrote: > If the Malfoys do have one, it's not been > mentioned at all in any of the first four books, which I would find > odd. Derek: Remember, though, that the books are written from Harry's perspective. If the Malfoys *did* have an invisibility cloak, we would only know it if Harry knew it. And Harry would presumably have the same problem learning of the Malfoys' cloak that Draco has learning of Harry's: an invisibility cloak facilitates secrecy, and secrecy makes it harder to discover things like invisibility cloaks. It helps conceal itself. :-) Diana: > If these cloaks can be bought, like at Diagon Alley, I wonder how > much they'd cost? Derek: I doubt they're for sale (at least, not in shops). Ron's reaction in SS/PS implies (to me) that he's never seen one, and recognizes it only by reputation. If they were available in Diagon Alley, I'd assume Ron would have seen them, even though he couldn't afford them. :-) Maybe they're available in Knockturn Alley, though. There does seem to be something a bit Dark Magicky about a device whose main purpose is to allow the wearer to be places he's not supposed to be and do things he's not supposed to do... Diana: > And, of course, the off-repeated question, where > did James get the cloak he left to Harry? Derek: And why did James leave it with Dumbledore before James died? - Derek From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Dec 11 11:37:09 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 11:37:09 -0000 Subject: The Rare Cloaks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86908 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "spang_b" wrote: > Hi, > We know that Harry has an invisibility cloak. And so does Moody. > But it seems nobody else( at least in the order) has one, because > they are always talking of borrowing Moody's cloak. Are they really > that rare? > Bye > Adi Geoff: There was a third involved - Moody had a second one, but that is now out of their hands. "'Why was Dung hiding fom us?' asked Ron sounding apprehensive. 'He was banned from the Hog's Head twenty years ago,' said Sirius, 'and that barman's got a long memory. We lost Moody's spare Invisibility Cloak when Sturgis was arrested so Dung's been dressing as a witch a lot lately.....'" (OOTP "Educational Decree Number Twenty-Four" p.329 UK edition) Just in passing, what was the silver Cloak that Arthur Weasley had with him when he was attacked/ It doesn't appear to have been an Invisibility Cloak.... "...at first glance the corridor was empty... but no..... a man was sitting on the floor ahead, his chin drooping on to his chest, his outline gleaming in the dark.... But the man was stirring.. a silver Cloak fell from his legs as he jumped to his feet;" (OOTP "The Eye of the Snake" pp.408/09 UK edition) Or was this perhaps /another/ IC which had slipped off Arthur as he dozed? Geoff From pooka2407 at animail.net Thu Dec 11 12:19:34 2003 From: pooka2407 at animail.net (mugglemonkee) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 12:19:34 -0000 Subject: Snape/Filch connection? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86909 As I was rereading Book 1, I noticed that part just after Halloween where Filch is bandaging Snape's leg. For some reason it seemed odd to me this time. Did Snape tell the entire staff he tried to get by Fluffy, or that he suspected Quirrel, OR did he just tell Filch? If he did just tell Filch, why? It just seems like a strange choice of person to confide in, doesn't it? What is their connection? From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Dec 11 07:56:47 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 07:56:47 -0000 Subject: Coming of age in the WW In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20031211031218.00986b10@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86910 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, GulPlum wrote: > At 21:37 10/12/03 , justcarol67 wrote: > > >Anyone have any clear idea of what coming of age in the WW actually > >means and whether some privileges may still be withheld? (I'm not > >talking about sex here, since that topic is unlikely to surface in th > >HP books.) Are the twins full-fledged adults in OoP? Can they marry? > >Can they vote, assuming that the WW has some sort of elected > >government? Can they legally drink anything stronger than butterbeer? > >(Is there really such a thing as butterbeer?) > > Last answer first: no. > > It's impossible to be certain what "coming of age" means in the > Potterverse, partially because under (real) British law, the term simply > doesn't exist. > Geoff: No, but in general terms, 18 is accepted as when folk come of age; it was dropped from 21 some years ago. The Labour government put out feelers only within the last week about the possiblity of dropping the voting age to 16 to try to counter political apathy among young people. Returning to Gred and Forge. They are two years ahead of Harry and Ron in Hogwarts, so they are in the Upper Sixth in OOTP - they already had their OWL results at the beginning of GOF. At the end of the book, we are in the summer of 1996; Harry is fast approaching his 16th birthday. the twins must therefore be approaching - or past - their 18th birthday. Somebody remarked earlier in this thread that their birthday is in April, so when did they actually leave Hogwarts? - certainly into the summer term because the careers interviews were under way so they must already be 18. Geoff From nkittyhawk97 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 10 23:44:06 2003 From: nkittyhawk97 at yahoo.com (nkittyhawk97) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 23:44:06 -0000 Subject: Bill's Visit Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86911 In GoF on pg 616 Bill said he hadn't been to Hogwarts in five years. But, the thing is, Charlie graduated 8 years ago at that time, and Bill is older than Charlie. Therefore, you can conclude that Bill visited Hogwarts a couple years after graduating. But why would he do that? Any thoughts? From erinellii at yahoo.com Thu Dec 11 14:17:22 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 14:17:22 -0000 Subject: Bill's Visit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86912 "nkittyhawk97" wrote: > In GoF on pg 616 Bill said he hadn't been to Hogwarts in five years. > But, the thing is, Charlie graduated 8 years ago at that time, and > Bill is older than Charlie. Therefore, you can conclude that Bill > visited Hogwarts a couple years after graduating. But why would he > do that? Any thoughts? Get ready to say "aww, isn't that nice?". Five years before GoF would have been the 12-year-old twins first Quidditch season. Bill probably came up to watch their first game. Of course, if you think there's any possibility that he's the evil spy in the Order, he could have been trying to spot holes in Dumbledore's defenses... Erin From hp at plum.cream.org Thu Dec 11 14:35:12 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (gulplum) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 14:35:12 -0000 Subject: Coming of age in the WW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86913 Geoff Bannister replied to my previous comments: > Returning to Gred and Forge. They are two years ahead of Harry and > Ron in Hogwarts, so they are in the Upper Sixth in OOTP - they > already had their OWL results at the beginning of GOF. Apologies. I made a mistake in my previous post, and should have stated that under Wizarding World rules, Gred & Forge would have been considered adults from the middle of *GoF*, not *OoP* (that's what happens when one attempts to be coherent at 2.30am). Technically, they could have given up on Hogwarts at the end of PoA/beginning of GoF, after getting their OWL results (if it is to be assumed that the legal implications of having sat OWLs mirrors the real-world implications of having completed GCSEs). It's clear to me that they really would have liked to have done so, but as they had no capital at that stage to start their business (and nowhere else to live), they were dependant on their parents' hospitality and thus had to accede to Molly's evident desire that they sit their NEWTs. Of course, they got their capital at the end of GoF and took advantage of their being at Hogwarts to have an opportunity test their new products during OoP, but otherwise they had no educational reason to remain at Hogwarts. Despite their child-like natures, they're clearly mature enough to have considered their options and knew that their best course of action was to bear Hogwarts as long as they could, and their age wasn't really a factor in determining at what point they'd leave. Without Umbridge's interference, they probably would have stayed until the end of the year (and done very poorly at their NEWTS). Despite everything, they love their parents and wouldn't deliberately do anything to hurt them. They know that Molly is aware that they're a bit wild and take advantage of the leeway she accords them, but they do know their limits. I find it interesting that their "Accio brooms" worked - I would assume that pupils' property confiscated by Hogwarts staff would somehow be impervious to magical methods of getting it back (otherwise there'd be no point in confiscating it). The fact that these assumed protections are "suspended" in this case indicates to me that the school itself somehow knows that some pupils have a right not to be there and thus school rules no longer apply. Before making the incantation, they make it clear (in not so many words) that they have no desire to be there, and thus should no longer be considered bound by pupils' obligations. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who eagerly awaits the moment Harry gets his Firebolt back. From tim_regan82 at hotmail.com Thu Dec 11 14:47:41 2003 From: tim_regan82 at hotmail.com (Tim Regan) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 14:47:41 -0000 Subject: Coming of age in the WW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86914 Hi All, --- In HPforGrownups gulplum wrote: > I find it interesting that their "Accio brooms" > worked - I would assume that pupils' property > confiscated by Hogwarts staff would somehow be > impervious to magical methods of getting it back > (otherwise there'd be no point in confiscating it). > The fact that these assumed protections are > "suspended" in this case indicates to me that > the school itself somehow knows that some pupils > have a right not to be there and thus school > rules no longer apply. Hmmm, I'd not wondered how that worked before. Of course it may also be that `the school' (if we are to treat it as a thinking entity) had decided that Umbridge was not a real member of staff. Perhaps that's why she couldn't take over Dumbledore's office, not because of a charm he cast, but simply because the school would not let her in! Cheers, Dumbledad. From meriaugust at yahoo.com Thu Dec 11 15:09:29 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 15:09:29 -0000 Subject: Bill's Visit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86915 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkittyhawk97" wrote: > In GoF on pg 616 Bill said he hadn't been to Hogwarts in five years. > But, the thing is, Charlie graduated 8 years ago at that time, and > Bill is older than Charlie. Therefore, you can conclude that Bill > visited Hogwarts a couple years after graduating. But why would he > do that? Any thoughts? I always thought, since the ages of the two eldest Weasly children are so ambiguous, that it meant that five years ago was when he had graduated from Hogwarts, making him about twenty three or four in GoF and making Charlie about twenty one or two. And I know that someone will come back with the quote about how Gryffindor hadn't won the Quidditch cup for seven years since Charlie left, but it is never said that the last cup they won was in Charlie's senior year, so it is entirely possible that they won in Charlie's third or fourth year (when he was about 14). Though this still doesn't explain the three year gap between Charlie and Percy. Meri From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Thu Dec 11 14:36:45 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 08:36:45 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape/Filch connection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c3bff4$3663c720$c097aec7@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 86916 > Mugglemonkee: >As I was rereading Book 1, I noticed that part? just after Halloween where Filch >is bandaging Snape's leg. > >For some reason it seemed odd to me this time. Did Snape tell the entire staff >he tried to get by Fluffy, or that he suspected Quirrel, OR did he just tell Filch? > >If he did just tell Filch, why? It just seems like a strange choice of person to >confide in, doesn't it? What is their connection? Iggy here: It could be the simple thing that Filch probably admires Snape for the reaction he invokes in the students, and was one of the few people who would believe any excuse and also might not report it to Dumbledore. Iggy McSnurd From derek at rhinobunny.com Thu Dec 11 14:09:52 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 06:09:52 -0800 Subject: Bill's Visit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031211060407.025c8bd0@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86917 nkittyhawk97 wrote: >In GoF on pg 616 Bill said he hadn't been to Hogwarts in five years. >But, the thing is, Charlie graduated 8 years ago at that time, and >Bill is older than Charlie. Therefore, you can conclude that Bill >visited Hogwarts a couple years after graduating. But why would he >do that? Any thoughts? Derek: Five years before GoF would have been the year before PS/SS. In PS/SS, Fred and George Weasley are the Beaters for the Gryffindor Quidditch team, and they had also been on the team the year before. That year, Fred and George's second year, would have been five years before GoF. Since we know that Harry making the house team as a first year was a big deal, we also know that Fred and George weren't on the team their first year. So their second year was when they made the Gryffindor Quidditch team. Therefore, my guess is that Bill came to Hogwarts to watch Fred and George in their debut Quidditch match. - Derek From angelofthenorth at cantab.net Thu Dec 11 15:36:35 2003 From: angelofthenorth at cantab.net (Angel Moules) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 15:36:35 +0000 Subject: charlie weasley: seeker genius? Message-ID: <3FD88F03.3020102@cantab.net> No: HPFGUIDX 86918 I'm wondering if Charlie was only once on a cup winning team, and in his second year, and whether he left school at 16, having got an apprenticeship in Romania. Either of the above could shorten the timeline. It strikes me that they could have had a 'team of one player' where they'd regularly get flattened, but Charlie always caught the snitch, and in the most improbable situations, hence his reputation. AotN From jjpandy at yahoo.com Thu Dec 11 15:42:16 2003 From: jjpandy at yahoo.com (jjpandy) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 15:42:16 -0000 Subject: Hog's Head Barman In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031208023525.024bfec0@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86919 Can you please tell where the first reference to Aberforth and the inappropriate charms on a goat occurred in the books? Is this a difference between UK and US editions? Thanks JJPandy --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Derek Hiemforth wrote: > > >Richelle: > >As has already been mentioned, a lot of people think it's Aberforth, > >Dumbledore's brother. If he vaguely resembled Dumbledore, that would make > >him look familiar to Harry. But also, there was a faint smell of goats in > >the Hog's Head. And Aberforth was once accused of using inappropriate > >charms on a goat. Coincidence? Or hint? I personally think it's a hint, > >as I am a firm believer in Barman Aberforth. > > Derek: > It's amusing to note that "Aberforth Dumbledore" is an anagram for > "the bar-room befuddler." :) > > - Derek From lynch at agere.com Thu Dec 11 17:25:57 2003 From: lynch at agere.com (zihav) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 17:25:57 -0000 Subject: The Rare Cloaks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86920 > Diana L. wrote: > At this point, we don't know for sure if Draco knows or suspects > that Harry has an invisibility cloak, but I would bet that the > minute Draco finds out Harry has an invisibility cloak he'll tell > his dad and demand one of his own. > If these cloaks can be bought, like at Diagon Alley, I wonder how > much they'd cost? And, of course, the off-repeated question, where > did James get the cloak he left to Harry? Will we ever find out? > > Diana L. > Tom: Draco *knows* that Harry has an invisibility cloak. In PoA at the Shreaking Shack he sees Harry's head and runs to tell Snape. Don't have the book in front of me to give Chapter and quote, but I'd say that Draco could put two and two together and figure out that it must have been an inisibility cloak. The thing I find interesting about it is that it doesn't make you invisible to everyone. Moody and Dumbledore both can see him when he's wearing the cloak... Tom From kcawte at ntlworld.com Fri Dec 12 01:40:12 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 17:40:12 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Confiscated brooms References: Message-ID: <00bb01c3c050$e8dbee30$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 86921 > > --- In HPforGrownups gulplum wrote: > > I find it interesting that their "Accio brooms" > > worked - I would assume that pupils' property > > confiscated by Hogwarts staff would somehow be > > impervious to magical methods of getting it back > > (otherwise there'd be no point in confiscating it). K Now I'm not sure I agree with that. Fred and George could get away with it because they weren't planning on hanging around afterwards - any other student could *in theory* get property back by magic but then they'd be in even more trouble, and since they would still be at the school they'd be even more strictly punished and lose even more points. If something has been confiscated from you as a punishment you'd have to really not care about the consequences to try and get it back. K "The Loudest Noise Comes From The Electric Minerva." From mfisanich at earthlink.net Thu Dec 11 16:17:14 2003 From: mfisanich at earthlink.net (mfisanich) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 16:17:14 -0000 Subject: Kreacher: Prophet, Plotter or Pawn? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86922 Linnea wrote: > Alarm bells? > Did I miss SB throwing a boot at Kreacher or something? > Is Kreacher "free" now to plot against SB? > > It could be reconciled if, for example, while at the Malfoys, LM had > some way of showing Kreacher that SB did indeed die at the MoM. > Otherwise... what? I am not writing from home where my book is, but I just re-read this passge of OotP recently, and I believe there is an answer to the question. Certainly, while SB is still alive, upstairs tending Buckbeak, Kreacher would be under the obligation of his kind not to plot against him. However, we have seen house elves (Dobby) violate this obligation before and get away with it by punishing themselves. If I recall correctly, Harry notices that Kreacher is wearing bandages in the fireplace scene, when he lies about SB's whereabouts. I had formerly assumed that Kreacher's bandages were the result of injuries from Buckbeak. Maybe Kreacher has had to punish himself for plotting against SB while SB still lives? Yours in HP obsession, Melissa From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Dec 11 14:24:18 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 14:24:18 -0000 Subject: Are Malfoy and Fudge the real masterminds? wasDid voldemort mean to allow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86923 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: Another thought is perhaps Lucius could have used Snape and Kreature > to encourage the Orders participation, leading to a pitch battle in > the Ministry that could only lead to arrests on both sides. WE know > the Order was at the Ministry to save Harry but will the WW see it > that way? Or will they see the Order as bad as the DEs, also > breaking into the Ministry illegally to do heaven knows what? Can > Fudge spin that? Jen R: Wow, Mandy--really nice conspiracy theory at work here! I like it. I just had a thought on this point in particular. Except for Tonks and perhaps Mad-Eye, who were down, the rest of the Order members probably apparated out once Dumbledore subdued the DE's. For that matter, DD could have made an illegal Port-key and had Tonks and Mad Eye transported to Grimmauld or St. Mungos with several of the others so they could get healed (and also not to lose an Auror inside the Ministry if Fudge found Tonks at the MOM). I doubt there was anyone left to arrest. Mandy: > The only problem with this theory is it renders Voldemort redundant. > And if Voldemort is redundant so is Harry Potter and then we have no > reason for the books in the first place. ;-) Also having Lucius in > jail allows Draco to step up to the plate and slip into his daddy's > shoes. Which I really do want to see. Jen R: Not redundant....just...compromised for the moment! And definitely just for this moment only. If Lucius and Fudge are in cahoots, I suspect they will be in for a nasty surprise soon because the real story IS Harry and Voldemort. Lucius and Fudge may be trying to manipulate the situation to their advantage, but they don't have the proper 'feeling' behind their motives. Like the feeling required to cast an Unforgiveable, the Order and LV/DE's both have a much stronger and broader motivation behind their movements than merely personal gain--they both have a vision for the Transformation of the WW, even though their philosophies are polar-opposite. So, just as Harry can't cast an Unforgiveable, "You need to *mean* them, Potter!", Lucius and Fudge won't be able to sustain their conspiracy. They'll either undermine each other internally, or the "real" players will discover (or already know) the subterfuge at work. So Lucius and Fudge definitely aren't the Masterminds IMO, but they are definitely trying to work this to their advantage and they will PAY!!! Jen, suddenly finding herself on the good ship FEATHERBOAS without knowing how she got here.... From lionel_garth at yahoo.com Thu Dec 11 16:31:10 2003 From: lionel_garth at yahoo.com (Lionel English) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 16:31:10 -0000 Subject: Bill's Visit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86924 Meri wrote: > > And I know that > someone will come back with the quote about how Gryffindor hadn't > won the Quidditch cup for seven years since Charlie left, but it is > never said that the last cup they won was in Charlie's senior year, > so it is entirely possible that they won in Charlie's third or > fourth year (when he was about 14). Though this still doesn't > explain the three year gap between Charlie and Percy. Is the quote that Gryffindor hasn't won the *Quidditch* Cup in that many years, or the *House* Cup? It's possible that Charlie's Quidditch skills helped them win the Quidditch cup but that for some reason they never won the House Cup (the reverse of the situation in Harry's first two years). Lionel From rredordead at aol.com Thu Dec 11 18:24:13 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 18:24:13 -0000 Subject: Lucius fears Voldemort Was: Are Malfoy and Fudge the real masterminds? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86925 Diana wrote: I've posted before my observations that Voldemort seems to make some big blunders and I've speculated that Voldemort's many spells that transformed him and made him immortal (before Ak'ing baby Harry) must have dulled his intelligence somewhat, judging by some of his bone-headed actions. Mandy here: Yes Voldemort's weaknesses are very frustrating. It makes Voldemort very two-dimensional and a weak villain only serves to weaken the hero. It is the reason I often, perhaps wrongly, look to other seemingly stronger characters to be the real mastermind. Diana wrote: But, even if this were the case, Voldemort is still a very scary guy to everyone in the WW. Dumbledore isn't scared of Voldemort for his own sake, but he is frightened for Harry's safety Mandy here: But you are right. The WW is terrified of Voldemort, but he has yet to prove his full power to us this second time around. Of course in the minds of the general population of the WW he doesn't have to prove anything, just the memory is enough to scare them. Dumbledore had better get Harry out there quick though before Voldemort gets back to his full pre-AK strength. Diana wrote: Lucius, OTOH, backed down against Dobby for goodness sake, so I honestly can't see Lucius trying to double-cross the most powerful wizard in the last 100 years. Mandy here: Yes, why is that? We know that Elves are supposed to be very magically powerful and perhaps the sheer shock of his servant standing up to him was enough to make Lucius back down. I don't perceive Lucius as a weak wizard but that could be part of his strength as a politician, he is able to cover up any lack of magical strength by his silver tongue and deep pockets. I wonder if there is any canon to support the idea that Lucius is a magically strong wizard or not? Diana wrote: At some point in the next two books, Lucius may well express some regret at joining up with Voldemort either because of something Voldemort does (killing or torturing Draco/Narcissa or even Lucius himself) or because he has a change of heart (yeah, right), but Lucius is not stupid. He knows that serving the Dark Lord is a life- long commitment. Mandy here: I think he already is already expressing regret and he is actively looking for ways out. As I said in my last post Lucius has learned that he doesn't need the Dark Lord to achieve his goals anymore but he is stuck with him. When you sign a deal with the devil and As you and Sirius said serving the Dark Lord is a lifetime commitment but I believe Lucius is arrogant enough to think he is above that law, and that it only applies to those lesser than him. The theory I'm playing with up the thread that Lucius masterminded the raid to get rid of Voldemort, would only have been a success if Voldemort was captured or killed (again). Which raises questions about what Lucius knows about the prophecy and Harry, if he believes Dumbledore is capably of killing Voldemort alone, can Voldemort be held in Azkaban. Etc. Etc. I still have a lot of thinking to do on this one obviously ;-) Diana wrote: Lucius has very good reasons to fear Voldemort and never betray him - his wife and child. Mandy here; Yes but that could also be an incentive for Lucius to work toward getting away from Voldemort too, before LV can get his hand on Draco and make him a DE. But in conclusion I'm thinking the key is, for Lucius is that Voldemort got away, and Lucius didn't. So Lucius is up S**t's Creek however we look at it. Lucius failed. Either in his plan to corner Voldemort (which I need to work on for a bit longer) or if he still a loyal DE he failed to get the orb and was arrested. So I think it is the end of the road for Lucius Malfoy. I don't see him surviving past book 6. Besides Draco has to be the sleeping dragon of the Hogwarts' motto (as nothing is coincidence in HP land, right?) and the death of his father wouldn't just be a tickle it would be a great big mallet to the head. Mandy. From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Thu Dec 11 16:04:40 2003 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 16:04:40 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Teachers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86926 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" message 86892 wrote: > Why, then, have these people never married and left their "home" and > "family"? "K": Back to the interview: Comic Relief March 2001 Live Chat Sheila McCleary - Have any of the Hogwarts professors had spouses? Good question - yes, a few of them but that information is sort of restricted - you'll find out why.~~~ If that information is restricted then chances are it's important to the story and it is information JK can't give away now. So, a few of these people have indeed had spouses. Professor Snape, Professor McGonagall, Professor Flitwick, Professor Sprout, Madame Pomfrey, Professor Dumbledore, Professor Sinistra. Which of these would have the biggest impact on the story if we find out they had been/are married? Sprout and Pomfrey? I wouldn't think so. We could have found out those two were married in book one and unless they were married to a death eater or something along that line, it just wouldn't matter. My bet is stil with Snape, McGonagall, and Dumbledore. Carol: >Florence, where are you? Ah, she evidently was too important to be put in book five. She's still around. "K" From annemehr at yahoo.com Thu Dec 11 19:40:59 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 19:40:59 -0000 Subject: Did voldemort mean to allow the DEs to be captured? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86927 > Jen R: > And if the DE's are so > competent they managed to raid the MOM alone and overthrow security > measures, then I find it hard to believe they couldn't handle the > kids. > > Jen, certain Lucius is up to something fishy but can only speculate > as to what that might be... Annemehr: Okay, I have to jump in! This thread is going to a lot of interesting places, and will not really be affected by what I am about to type, but the thread began on an inaccuracy. The DEs could handle the kids. They had the kids beat, with only two of their own out of the action, and Harry was just about to hand the prophecy orb to Malfoy when five Order members came bursting in. Then the Order members were having quite a hard time of it when Dumbledore arrived. *He's* the one who beat the remaining DEs and got them sent to Azkaban. None of this puts a damper on all the interesting Lucius Malfoy speculation, though, so -- carry on! ;-) Annemehr who has written up quite a bit about what were and were not the mistakes of LV and hopes to post on that someday soon From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Thu Dec 11 19:06:44 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 19:06:44 -0000 Subject: Coming of age in the WW/are Fred and George really adults? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86928 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sophierom" wrote: > Sophierom: > > Actually, I do consider the Weasley twins to be adults. Sure, > they're mischevious, but they also have some very good "adult" > traits: 1.) the ability to make their dreams a reality(setting up > the joke shop); 2.) their ability and willingness to live on their > own (sure, everyone wanted to escape Umbridge and her awful ways, > but only Fred and George actually formulated a plan and were willing > to leave their "comfort" zone ... no matter how uncomfortable > Umbridge made it, Hogwarts still gave students a bed to sleep in, > food to eat, a roof over their heads, etc.); Hickengruendler: However, Fred and George were the only students who got 1000 Galleons from Harry, to open a joke shop. While I admire that they are opening their own shop and that they are their own bosses, it's easier for them to leave Hogwarts, as for someone who hasn't the money, and maybe wanted to become an Auror or a worker at Gringotts. This student would need his NEWT's to fulfill his dreams. The Weasley Twins were in a way easier situation. Hickengruendler From rredordead at aol.com Thu Dec 11 19:26:24 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 19:26:24 -0000 Subject: Are Malfoy and Fudge the real masterminds? wasDid voldemort mean to allow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86929 > Jen R: > Wow, Mandy--really nice conspiracy theory at work here! I > like it. I just had a thought on this point in particular. the rest of the Order members probably apparated out once Dumbledore subdued the DE's. I doubt there was anyone left to arrest. Mandy again: Thank you. And you raise a very good point. Lets say the Order got out but what about DD? He has to explain his position somehow and him being there out of sheer luck or coincidence isn't going to wash with Fudge and Fudge will make sure the rest of the WW won't except that either. I don't see Fudge welcoming DD in to the Ministry with open arms, even now. Fudge is terrified of DD and now DD will have the WW on his side for saving the Ministry from 'He Who Must Not Be Named'. Fudge will be grateful ofcourse and will have to admit to DD, that he needs his help but it is going to come at a price. I'm afraid that price might be the Prophecy. Fudge needs a scapegoat. Will he use DD? I am very confused with my own thought right now and need to think on this some more. All I do know is I think DD was clearing the slate with Harry at the end of OotP and I think the DoM incident might be the begining of the end for DD. Mandy From houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Thu Dec 11 16:33:55 2003 From: houseofbohacek at earthlink.net (Gail Bohacek) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 11:33:55 -0500 Subject: (FILK) Master Needs Me Message-ID: <410-2200312411163355150@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 86930 Master Needs Me (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Somewhere That's Green_ from the musical _Little Shop Of Horrors_) Midi is here: http://addagirl.com/littleshop.htm Scene: The kitchen at Hogwarts. Enter Hermione, stage right, surrounded by the House-Elves and Dobby. Hermione (spoken): This is wonderful, Dobby, that you are working here at Hogwarts! Dobby: Yes, M' am...Dobby gets paying for his work! (The other House-Elves look at Dobby strangely) Hermione: Well, with my organization, S.P.E.W., one day all House-Elves will be freed! (The other House-Elves become very disturbed at Hermione's words) Dobby: And you know who else is here? Winky! Hermione: Winky? Oh! Where is she? (Enter Winky, stage left, staggering, with a bottle of butterbeer in hand. She flops down on the stage and begins to sob. Hermione and Dobby come over to her as the other House-Elves keep a discreet distance) (Cue music for _Master Needs Me_) Hermione: I see that you're in distress Because you have been given this dress With a little Elf blouse And a matching blue hat Still, you should feel elated Sigh no more, now you're liberated You're working at Hogwarts A better place than were you were at Dobby (spoken): It's no use, M' am. Winky has been like this ever since Barty Crouch dismissed her. Hermione (spoken): But Mr. Crouch was horrible to her! Dobby (with a shrug): Winky is having trouble adjusting. Winky forgets she is not bound to Mr. Crouch anymore; she is allowed to speak her mind now, but she won't do it. Mr. Crouch isn't her master but Winky is still attached. She cries about it all the time. She sits there...with her butterbeer...and cries all day long...for Mr. Crouch. (Hermione, Dobby and the other House-Elves slowly exit stage right, shaking their heads sadly, leaving Winky alone. Spot light on Winky as she starts to sing) Winky: Just like my ancestors I served the whole Crouch clan I took care of the Master's son Who came from Azkaban With my special Elf-magic Barty was kept with Winky So he could not get past her - Master needs me Was kept invisible Under Imperious No one knew that he was there But someone from the office - Bertha Jorkins discovered him Master charmed her mem'ry To avoid a disaster - Master needs me The World Cup competition Master almost was exposed Barty nearly escaped me That's when Master gave Winky her clothes I'm still faithful to him Winky will not forget I won't let them insult him And I'll keep all his secrets I'm prop'ly ashamed and disgraced that I have been set free What can I do? I'll remain true Master needs me (Spot light dims as Winky continues to weep) - Gail B. houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Why Wait? Move to EarthLink. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hieya at hotmail.com Thu Dec 11 21:12:01 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 21:12:01 -0000 Subject: Bill's Visit, other Bill questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86931 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > I always thought, since the ages of the two eldest Weasly children > are so ambiguous, that it meant that five years ago was when he had > graduated from Hogwarts, making him about twenty three or four in > GoF and making Charlie about twenty one or two. And I know that > someone will come back with the quote about how Gryffindor hadn't > won the Quidditch cup for seven years since Charlie left, but it is > never said that the last cup they won was in Charlie's senior year, > so it is entirely possible that they won in Charlie's third or > fourth year (when he was about 14). But Charlie was supposed to be a great Quidditch player, a legend at Hogwarts. I think Oliver Wood told Harry in the first year that Charlie could have played for the national team if he hadn't pursued a career with dragons. So, I think that it is a safe assumption that Charlie, as the Gryffindor Quidditch Captain, would have won in his last year (or at least in his sixth year). So Charlie would have to be at least 12 years older than Ron, making him in his mid 20s in GoF. I have some questions regarding Bill. Was he at Hogwarts when Snape first started teaching there? If not, how does Bill know Snape? In OoP, in Grimmauld Pl, when the kids are telling Harry about the Order, Ginny mentions that Bill doesn't like Snape either. (sorry I don't have my book with me for page numbers). This comment by Ginny has always seemed a bit odd to me, a bit out of place. The kids rarely talk about Bill or Charlie, and we know next to nothing about these characters' beliefs. A comment thrown into the conversation like that is just unusual. How would Bill, presumably spending years in Egypt, know Snape enough to dislike him? I think it highly likely that something permanently bad will happen to one of the Weasleys, whether they die or turn out to be a traitor. Percy is the obvious choice, so knowing JKR, it won't be him. I have noticed that in the past two books, a "cool" person has died. First Cedric, and then Sirius. Bill is also described as being cool in GoF. A clue or a red herring? Any thoughts? greatlit2003 awaiting Book 6 already From rredordead at aol.com Thu Dec 11 19:45:05 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 19:45:05 -0000 Subject: The title Madam was: Hogwarts Teachers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86932 > Carol: > Doesn't the fact that some of the teachers and staff members are > addressed as "Madame" indicate that they are or have been married? Or does it only indicate that they're not professors? Madame Pince is the > librarian and Madame Pomfrey is the school "healer" (to use Ron's > term), but Madame Hooch is a teacher, albeit, like Hagrid, not a > full-fledged professor. But these women are addressed in the same way > as Madame Rosmerta, the owner of the Three Broomsticks. Why "Madame" > if they're not married? And yet Mrs. Weasley and even the late Mrs. > Black go by the ordinary (Muggle-sounding) "Mrs." Maybe "Madame" is > used by married women who work outside the home? Mandy here: Not necessarily. Nothing is straightforward is it? ;-) I always thought Madam is a professional title for a female. Married or single. Professional ofcourse including a teacher; not of the level of Professor, and a Bar Owner, etc. I must confess it's one of the reasons I assumed Molly doesn't have a job outside the home is because she is referred to as Mrs. Same as Mrs. Black. And not a Madam. But this is just my biased assumption. Madam is a title that implies a certain amount of earned respect. Just as a footnote: In England when little girl starts acing out and being bossy to adults she is often referred to as a 'Proper Little Madam.' Mandy From mfisanich at earthlink.net Thu Dec 11 18:54:13 2003 From: mfisanich at earthlink.net (mfisanich) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 18:54:13 -0000 Subject: The Rare Cloaks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86933 Geoff said: > Or was this [the silvery cloak Harry sees while dreaming of the snake's attack on Arthur] perhaps /another/ IC which had slipped off Arthur as he dozed? I assumed the silvery cloak is Moody's original IC, not a third cloak belonging to the OP. I don't have my book with me right now, but I believe the initial passage describing Harry's IC states that it is silvery, much like the description of the one Arthur W has. The members of the OP probably have to be wearing the IC when they are on "guard duty" in the DofM because, clearly, they can't just be lurking around down there. I'm guessing that Moody's remaining IC would be pulled from whatever other work it was used for and given to the more important job of guarding the prophecy room. I think an interesting question is the nature of the cloak itself. How does it know what to make invisible? How is it that the cloak is not invisible itself, but rather silvery, until it is put on a person? Does the cloak magically 'know' when to start making something invisible? Does it have to be in physical contact with a human? When the cloak is folded in Harry's trunk, does it render the objects beneath it invisible? the floor of the trunk? the floor under the trunk? How does this all work? Hmmm...??? Yours in HP obsession, Melissa From derek at rhinobunny.com Thu Dec 11 17:07:11 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 09:07:11 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hog's Head Barman In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20031208023525.024bfec0@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031211090535.025a5430@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86934 jjpandy wrote: >Can you please tell where the first reference to Aberforth and the >inappropriate charms on a goat occurred in the books? Is this a >difference between UK and US editions? Derek: It's in GoF, chapter 24, in the part where DD and the trio visit Hagrid in his cabin to comfort him after Rita Skeeter outs him as a half-giant. - Derek From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Thu Dec 11 21:22:30 2003 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 21:22:30 -0000 Subject: Are Malfoy and Fudge the real masterminds? wasDid voldemort mean to allow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86935 Hi all, here are two Knuts. Mandy wrote: The only problem with this theory is it renders Voldemort redundant. And if Voldemort is redundant so is Harry Potter and then we have no reason for the books in the first place. ;-) Also having Lucius in jail allows Draco to step up to the plate and slip into his daddy's shoes. Which I really do want to see. Mandy, who is loving the idea that Lucius Malfoy is the mastermind behind the whole DoM incident. And Jen replied: "Jen R: Not redundant....just...compromised for the moment! And definitely just for this moment only. If Lucius and Fudge are in cahoots, I suspect they will be in for a nasty surprise soon because the real story IS Harry and Voldemort. Lucius and Fudge may be trying to manipulate the situation to their advantage, but they don't have the proper 'feeling' behind their motives. Like the feeling required to cast an Unforgiveable, the Order and LV/DE's both have a much stronger and broader motivation behind their movements than merely personal gain--they both have a vision for the Transformation of the WW, even though their philosophies are polar-opposite. So, just as Harry can't cast an Unforgiveable, "You need to *mean* them, Potter!", Lucius and Fudge won't be able to sustain their conspiracy. They'll either undermine each other internally, or the "real" players will discover (or already know) the subterfuge at work. So Lucius and Fudge definitely aren't the Masterminds IMO, but they are definitely trying to work this to their advantage and they will PAY!!!" No me: Well, maybe Fudge believes Malfoy is his ally, but I'm quite sure that in Malfoy's mind, Fudge is only an instrument he manipulates to serve his own interest. A guy with such a name (Malfoy, in old French, can mean "false-heart", "treachery") can't be trusted. Malfoy is serving only one interest: his own interest. And Fudge is more than "a compliant Minister", to take Mandy's words. He thinks that he is powerful because he has Malfoy's support. In fact, he's his client. He begs his advice just like he used to do with Dumbledore in the first book. He doesn't realise that he is just a toy in Malfoy's hands. He doesn't realise that he is cheated. He's coward, he feels menaced and Malfoy is there to support him. He's full of himself, and Malfoy is there to flatter him. He needs money to settle his power, and Malfoy is there to give him Galleons. Cher monsieur Malfoy, indispensable mister Malfoy. This is a very intelligent man. Malfoy's character may root in "The Prince" by Machiavelli. He also acts the same way the Mephistopheles in Faust (after all, his first name is Lucius, it's not very far from Lucifer). He has no friend but himself. But I think he wouldn't try to pull a fast one on Voldemort. Mephistopheles is only a faithful servant; he's not the master. Nevertheless, it would be interesting if Mandy's theory was confirmed in the next books, then we could say that Malfoy is even darker than Voldemort. Voldemort wants power and uses it openly, in a dictatorial way. Malfoy remains hidden and manipulates Fudge. He never acts directly, he lets Fudge (and Voldemort?) do the dirty job, so there' no reason why he should be blamed before the DoM incident. He's free to do whatever he wants; he does it without assuming any public responsibility. He's a kind of Godfather (not in Sirius's way; rather in a Corleone's way). He has his clients. As for his interest for Hogwarts, well, it shows that he perfectly knows what to do if he wants to rule the WW for a long time. If you want to rule a society, first control education. And this rotten guy seems to be until a certain point really provident. But Lucius is in jail because he was at the MoM with Voldemort. I'd really enjoy it if he happened to be the "Organ Grinder". But in that case, his behaviour would be incoherent. Why did he follow Voldemort when it could put him into trouble? Or is it part of a twisted plan? I'm unable to answer myself. Concerning Draco, I don't know whether he has his father's calibre, and is really able "to slip in his shoes", to take another time Mandy's words. He's twisted minded, but he doesn't seem to be so refined in treachery. I would say that he is too noisy (he's always speaking in a rude way, for example) and too noticeable (as a prefect, he bullies the first years, for instance) to be as efficient as Lucius, if Lucius is really what we think (hope?) he is. Mandy: > I am very confused with my own thought right now and need to think on this some more. Me: I know what it is! Amicalement, Iris From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Dec 11 20:01:46 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 20:01:46 -0000 Subject: Lucius fears Voldemort Was: Are Malfoy and Fudge the real masterminds? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86936 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Diana" wrote: > Lucius trying to manipulate any situation to his liking would not > surprise me, but I highly doubt he'd try to double-cross Voldemort. > The only reason he didn't rush to his Dark Lord's aid before > Voldemort's return to his body was because Lucius wasn't sure if > Voldemort was even still alive (if you can call it that) in books > one through three. Lucius wouldn't have given up his aristocratic > lifestyle, status and position for a master that was probably dead > and gone. Jen R: I don't think Lucius is going to give up his lifestyle for a master who's back in the flesh, either! Lucius has some leverage on LV and is biding his time. He knows LV used to be Tom Riddle the half-blood, something I doubt he knew in the First War. Lucius has connections with everyone from the merchants in Knockturn Alley to the Minister of Magic. While he may love his wife and son, he loves Power more and having LV back complicates his life. Would Lucius have any respect for a master who is talking about ridding the WW of Mudbloods, after he discovers Tom Riddle had a Muggle father? I don't think so. No, Lucius isn't one to rush to anyone's side and even LV knows this when he addressed his "slippery friend" in the graveyard. Diana: > Lucius, OTOH, backed down against Dobby for goodness sake, so I > honestly can't see Lucius trying to double-cross the most powerful > wizard in the last 100 years. I mean, Lucius could have AK'd Dobby > and then attacked Harry at the end of CoS, but he didn't, did he? > He intended to attack Harry right under Dumbledore's nose and was > only stopped by a 'lowly' house elf, which tells me that just becase > Dumbledore was only a short distance away wouldn't have stopped him > if Dobby hadn't of been there. Jen R: The scene between Dobby and Lucius in COS doesn't say the Lucius was fearful of Dobby, but rather that Dobby was the more powerful (for reasons unknown as yet). Lucius is in fact *livid* when Dobby tells him, "You shall not touch Harry Potter. You shall go now". "Lucius had no choice. With a last incensed stare at the pair of them, he swung his cloak around him and hurried out of sight." (US, chap. 18, p. 338) Lucius is the definition of the word, "calculating". He needs Harry and he knows it. While he may not know exactly what the Prophecy says, Lucius understands that the Prophecy contains information about why LV couldn't kill Harry as a baby. It's not much of a stretch to conjecture Harry alone has the power to defeat LV--after all, how could a mere baby send LV to vapor if there wasn't something special about him? Diana: > I would guess that Lucius would not want to incur Voldemort's wrath > any more than he already did for not coming to Voldemort's aid and > lying to MoM about being a DE. Besides Voldemort is quite short of > DE's at the end of GoF and he didn't AK all the DEs who'd > disappointed him because he really couldn't spare any more of his > soldiers right then. I'm sure Lucius knows exactly what Voldemort > would do to him and his family if he betrayed him, and as big a jerk > Lucius may be, Draco and Narcissa do mean something to him. Jen R: Your implying that Lucius is fearful of what LV might do to him or his family, but I think that is underestimating how LV views Lucius. LV is very contemptuous of many of the DE's, but he lets Lucius get away with a lot (i.e. graveyard scene where Voldemort "lazily" admonsishes Lucius for his shortcomings). LV realizes Lucius has gained Power in the intervening years (to go along with his money and pure-blood status)and that he can't treat Lucius like he does Wormtail. Diana: > To me, one of Lucius's biggest weakness that has yet to be used > against him by either Dumbledore and the Order or Voldemort and the > DEs is his tendency to give Draco way too much information. Draco > knows about their stash of controversial items under the drawing > room floor, which he then blurts out to Crabbe!Ron and Goyle! Harry. > Draco also knew, courtesy of his father, that the Chamber of Secrets > was going to be opened by the heir of Slytherin and that students > were going to be attacked and/or killed. I mean, Draco's known > about a lot of stuff Harry, Ron and Hermione have had to find out > much later in the books. I could see Draco getting dear old dad > into trouble by giving too much away in a future book. That would > be so fun to read! Jen R: Yes, this is odd. My speculation is Lucius is either intentionally feeding information to Draco that he knows Draco will pass on to Harry, or Draco is very adept at overhearing things he shouldn't! If Lucius is telling Draco the information, whatever his intentions, then he's putting not only himself but his son in danger- -and that would make him an even bigger slimeball! From derek at rhinobunny.com Thu Dec 11 17:11:07 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 09:11:07 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bill's Visit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031211090757.024db050@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86937 meriaugust wrote: >I always thought, since the ages of the two eldest Weasly children >are so ambiguous, that it meant that five years ago was when he had >graduated from Hogwarts, making him about twenty three or four in >GoF and making Charlie about twenty one or two. Derek: This wouldn't work, though. In GoF, the trio are in their fourth year, and the Weasley twins are in their sixth. If Bill had graduated only five years before, then he'd be younger than the twins, and only a year older than the trio... - Derek From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Dec 11 20:52:33 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 20:52:33 -0000 Subject: Why the number of students is ambiguous Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86938 We've often wondered why JKR seems unsettled as to how many students there are in a House. 70? (7 years times 10 students) 200? (The number of Slytherins at a Quidditch match) 250? (JKR's interview saying there are about a thousand students at Hogwarts). I think its ambiguous because she is skating her way around group dynamics. She doesn't want to have a dissident faction of Gryffindors, and that would be inevitable (in the real world) if there were hundreds of them. So Harry's house seems to be small. She does want there to be a dissident faction of Slytherins (the ones who stood to honor Harry at the end of GoF), and that wouldn't make sense if there were many fewer than one hundred. Dissidents would then be perceived as individual non-conformists like Luna, rather than a fraction of the whole. But Rowling wants us to perceive that Slytherin and Gryffindor are the same size, as implied by the classes where there seem to be ten of each. No wonder we can't get the math to work. Pippin From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Dec 11 17:13:22 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 17:13:22 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall Road and the Elixir of Life ( was The Diary (just where did V get In-Reply-To: <3FD8AD49.6254.561043@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86939 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > On 10 Dec 2003 at 15:27, Geoff Bannister wrote: > Geoff: > > I think we may have cracked it!! Shaun's bit of info above looks like > > the last piece of the jigsaw. We have dogged Tom Riddle's footsteps > > to the right area. Shaun: > At the moment, this theory works if we assume Kennington Lane (or part thereof) > was also known as Vauxhall Road. It's not unprecedented for roads in older cities > to have names like that - but I can't find any proof this applied to Kennington Lane > - just indications. > > Ideally - I'd love to find the name of the firm Harry Dobkin worked for, then find out > its address in contemporary London directories - see if it really was 302 Vauxhall > Road. > Geoff: The Vauxhall Society website states quite categorically that Harry Dobkin was firewatching at the solicitors next to the Church at 302 Vauxhall Road (I'm not sure whether that is the church number or the firm). The Westminster Council website (www.westminster.gov.uk) lists the Baptist Church in its archive as Cottington Street. Cottington Street is on the east end of the present Kennington Lane. I think the implication from this is that the church was on the corner. Local history societies are usually very accurate, certainly in London, because they have access to central and local archive records and anecdotal evidence in addition. I think I'm prepared to run with this one, bearing in mind that it also fits the travel pattern. If we go back to a Vauxhall Bridge Road scenario, as I said earlier, what the heck was Tom Riddle doing up there? He's way off track. I don't suppose Tom Riddle went under the name of Harry Dobkin? It's the sort of sneaky thing he'd do..... Geoff From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net Thu Dec 11 23:20:49 2003 From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 23:20:49 -0000 Subject: Teachers' workload Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86940 The Hogwarts teachers are overworked! Think of McGonagall. She teaches each of the four houses individually for each of the first five years -- that's 20 classes. And if each class is one hour long and if it meets twice a week, that's 40 hours of classes. Plus her NEWT classes. Plus reading all those homework assignments that Harry complains about -- it must take half an hour just to read Hermione's parchments alone. Forget about the house-elves, Hermy, help the teachers! Booby J. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Dec 11 23:25:47 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 23:25:47 -0000 Subject: Kreacher: Not Plotting Against Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86941 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mfisanich" wrote: > Linnea wrote: > > Alarm bells? > > Did I miss SB throwing a boot at Kreacher or something? > > Is Kreacher "free" now to plot against SB? > > > > It could be reconciled if, for example, while at the Malfoys, LM > > had some way of showing Kreacher that SB did indeed die at the > > MoM. > > Otherwise... what? > Melissa: > > ... Certainly, while SB is still alive, upstairs tending Buckbeak, > Kreacher would be under the obligation of his kind not to plot > against him. > > However, we have seen house elves (Dobby) violate this obligation > before and get away with it by punishing themselves. > > ..., Harry notices that Kreacher is wearing bandages ..., when he > lies about SB's .... ...Maybe Kreacher has had to punish himself > for plotting against SB while SB still lives? > > Yours in HP obsession, > Melissa bboy_mn: I agree that Kreacher's injuries were a result of having to punish himself, but I see no plot by anyone against Sirius. Let's not lose focus, Kreacher is not aiding in a plot to get Sirius killled. If you remember, on Snape's order, Sirius was supposed to wait at the HQ until Dumbledore arrived so he would fill Dumbledore in on what was going on. So, there was no plot against Sirius personally. The plot was against Harry, and it's intent was to get Harry to the Dept of Mysteries where, after handing over the prophecy, there was a very good chance that Harry would die. One could say the plotting against Harry is indirectly plotting against Sirius, but I think that is a distinction that Kreacher would not feel obliged to make. The only plotting or conspiring that Kreacher did was with a Black family member; Narcissa Black/Malfoy and perhaps with Bellatrix Black/Lastrange. Just a thought. bboy_mn From meriaugust at yahoo.com Fri Dec 12 00:22:17 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 00:22:17 -0000 Subject: Bill's Visit In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031211090757.024db050@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86942 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Derek Hiemforth wrote: > meriaugust wrote: > >I always thought, since the ages of the two eldest Weasly children > >are so ambiguous, that it meant that five years ago was when he had > >graduated from Hogwarts, making him about twenty three or four in > >GoF and making Charlie about twenty one or two. > > Derek: > This wouldn't work, though. In GoF, the trio are in their fourth > year, and the Weasley twins are in their sixth. If Bill had > graduated only five years before, then he'd be younger than the > twins, and only a year older than the trio... > > - Derek I'm sorry, perhaps I am reading your answer wrong, but if Bill had graduated five years before GoF that would make him at least eight years ahead of HRH (he would have left the seven year school one year before they started) and at least five years older than the twins (who would have been in their first or second year when he was a seventh year). Maybe you could explain your logic, because it is cannon that Bill's allready graduated from Hogwarts and gotten a job, so how is it possible that he could be younger than the twins. who made their allready leagenday escape from Hogwarts in OotP? Meri From lewis.954 at osu.edu Thu Dec 11 16:05:25 2003 From: lewis.954 at osu.edu (Rachel Lewis) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 16:05:25 +0000 (EST5EDT) Subject: Anyone got Phoenix handy.... Message-ID: <25DB3ED462C@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 86943 that could give me the quote from the Christmas chapter where Sirius is heard singing "God Rest Ye Merry Hippogriffs"...? Just the line before and including it. Many thanks! Rachel Lewis The Ohio State University Fees & Deposits This is ridiculous. What am I doing here? I'm in the wrong story. From angelofthenorth at cantab.net Fri Dec 12 00:45:51 2003 From: angelofthenorth at cantab.net (Angel Moules) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 00:45:51 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Anyone got Phoenix handy.... In-Reply-To: <25DB3ED462C@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu> References: <25DB3ED462C@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: <3FD90FBF.3080002@cantab.net> No: HPFGUIDX 86945 Rachel Lewis wrote: > that could give me the quote from the Christmas chapter > where Sirius is heard singing "God Rest Ye Merry > Hippogriffs"...? Just the line before and including it. > > Many thanks! > > Rachel Lewis > The Ohio State University > Fees & Deposits > > This is ridiculous. What am I doing here? I'm in the > wrong story. UK 442/443 'Christmas on the Closed ward' Italics from the text, poor capitalization mine... 'I'm not the weapon after all', thought Harry. His heart swelled with happiness and relief, and he felt like joining in as they heard Sirius tramping past their door towards Buckbeaks room, singing 'God rest ye merry hippogriffs' at the top of his voice //// How could he have dreamed of returning to Privet Drive at Christmas? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Dec 11 23:38:25 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 23:38:25 -0000 Subject: The Rare Cloaks - Nitpicking Point - Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86946 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zihav" wrote: > > Tom: Draco *knows* that Harry has an invisibility cloak. ... The thing > I find interesting about it is that it doesn't make you invisible to > everyone. Moody and Dumbledore both can see him when he's wearing the > cloak... > > Tom bboy_mn: OK, I just couldn't help myself, I had to nitpick on this one point. While the books make it crystal clear that Moody can see through the invisibility cloak, it only vaguely implies that Dumbledore can. Personally, I've been more under the impression that Dumbledore being old, wise, and with a keen well honed experienced sense of observation and preception, can sense the presents of people under the invisibility cloak. But, in my personal opinion, he can't actually see them. Although, I will concede that there may be some extremely minor and subtle aberrations of light around a person who is hidden by an invisibility cloak that the average person would miss, but that a keenly aware, very experienced, and highly preceptive person like Dumbedore might pick up on, so in that sense, he could see the invisible person. But that's not the same as being able to see through the invisibility cloak. Remember, that Moody is only able to see through the cloak because of his magical eye which can also see through the bones of his skull and apparently through other solid objects. Although, there does seem to be some limitation to the extent to which he can see through solid objects. Of couse, that's just this mans opinion. bboy_mn From peckham at cyberramp.net Fri Dec 12 00:51:49 2003 From: peckham at cyberramp.net (luna_loco) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 00:51:49 -0000 Subject: Bill's Visit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86947 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkittyhawk97" wrote: > In GoF on pg 616 Bill said he hadn't been to Hogwarts in five years. > But, the thing is, Charlie graduated 8 years ago at that time, and > Bill is older than Charlie. Therefore, you can conclude that Bill > visited Hogwarts a couple years after graduating. But why would he > do that? Any thoughts? One possible reason for a visit would be he was there on Gringotts' related business. As a former Head Boy, Bill would enjoy a better than average access to many of his former instructors. This access to referals from Hogwart's faculty combined with his outgoing personality would make Bill a good bank representative for PR or employee recruiting purposes. Allen From travellerrose at yahoo.com Fri Dec 12 00:34:23 2003 From: travellerrose at yahoo.com (travellerrose) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 00:34:23 -0000 Subject: Lucius fears Voldemort Was: Are Malfoy and Fudge the real masterminds? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86948 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Would Lucius have any respect for a master who is talking > about ridding the WW of Mudbloods, after he discovers Tom > Riddle had a Muggle father? I don't think so. Hi, I've been lurking for ages, so I guess it's time I came out in the open. This post particularly caught my eye because it highlights one of the reasons I love JR's book so much - she has such a sure grasp of history and human nature. It is often pointed out by historians that Hitler was the complete opposite of everything he espoused - he wasn't pure Aryan blood, he didn't have the tall, blond, blue eyed physical Aryan characteristics that he wanted to dominate the world, but whether this distinction made no difference to his followers, or they simply didn't notice it, they remained slavishly loyal to him and his persecution of non-Aryan people - the similarities between Hitler and LV are not coincidence, I think. Fanatics do not use reason, or question their leaders, as was shown through the six years of World War II. Even now, present day Nazis deny there ever was a holocaust, and continue to be loyal to Hitler - if he returned they would flock to his side. I am sure the revelation that Tom Riddle is LV makes no difference to his followers - it is the power they follow, not the logic. This is JR's most powerful message, I think. Just my opinion and I hope you don't mind my popping it in here. "travellerrose" From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Dec 11 23:57:01 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 23:57:01 -0000 Subject: The Rare Cloaks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86949 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mfisanich" wrote: > Geoff said: > > ...edited... > > ... How does it know what to make invisible? How is it that the cloak > is not invisible itself, but rather silvery, until it is put on a > person? Does the cloak magically 'know' when to start making > something invisible? Does it have to be in physical contact with a > human? When the cloak is folded in Harry's trunk, does it render > the objects beneath it invisible? the floor of the trunk? the floor > under the trunk? How does this all work? > > Hmmm...??? > > Yours in HP obsession, > Melissa bboy_mn: I've often pondered those same question, however, since we have no difinitive answers available, I've had to make up my own. My opinion is that the invisibility cloak has a visible side and an invisible side very much like the cloak we see in the movie. When you fold it up to put it away, a wise person always folds with the visible side out. If you happened to drop it on the ground invisible side up, unless it laid perfectly flat, you would see minor visual inconsistancies around the edges from wrinkles in fabrid that would give away it's location. There are a lot of unanswered and unanswerable question regarding the clock. If it only works when a human wraps it around himself, then that would imply that you couldn't hide a solid object, like a dragon in a crate, unless you were also under the cloak. That doesn't seem very practical. There is also the issue of magical intent. We know that magic can be modified by intent. When Harry stuns Ron, Ron gracefully falls over, Hermione revives him, and he gets back up and tries it again. But when Dumbledore stuns fake!Moody, he does it through a solid door which is destroy in the process of knocking Moody out. We do see a limited amount of magic that is performed by intent alone; examples of wordless and/or wandless magic. Tom the innkeeper snapes his fingers and the fireplace ingnites, etc.... So perhaps, the ability of the invisibility cloak is modified by the magical intent of it's user to take from silvery and nearly invisible to fully invisible. I don't think we have enough to really make a definitive statement, but the visible side/invisibile side seems like a very simple solution to the mystery. Just a thought. bboy_mn From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Dec 11 21:51:04 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 21:51:04 -0000 Subject: Coming of age in the WW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86950 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gulplum" wrote: Gulplum: > I find it interesting that their "Accio brooms" worked - I would > assume that pupils' property confiscated by Hogwarts staff would > somehow be impervious to magical methods of getting it back > (otherwise there'd be no point in confiscating it). Geoff: This reminds me of something that has really annoyed me whenever I read it. Umbridge told Harry and Co that they were banned from playing Quidditch ever again. That, of course, could only apply to Hogwarts. Presumably what she meant was ever again at the school. But my main irritation is the woman's arrogance in confiscating the brooms. Harry's broom is a valuable possession and is his own personal property; she has no right to remove it. Perhaps if he had felt more secure, he might have remonstrated with her. Whenever I read that section, I find myself echoing Hermione's words - "You hag, you evil hag", "That foul, lying, twisting old gargoyle", (words she used to describe the "truly delightful woman" after her inspection of Hagrid if you've lost the quote). Geoff From warhound at accessus.net Fri Dec 12 00:41:16 2003 From: warhound at accessus.net (Beverly Adams) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 00:41:16 -0000 Subject: The Rare Cloaks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86951 Diana L. wrote: > At this point, we don't know for sure if Draco knows or > suspects that Harry has an invisibility cloak, with a reply by Tom: > Tom: Draco *knows* that Harry has an invisibility cloak. In PoA at > the Shreaking Shack he sees Harry's head and runs to tell Snape. Beverly (with first post) adds: We then find that Snape knows that Harry has an Invisibility Cloak because of what Snape says to Moody in GoF. (Page 473 after Harry takes his bath to find out the egg's clue and then gets stuck on the stairs, losing the egg which alerts Filch and Snape that something is wrong.) Snape says: "That egg is Potter's egg. That piece of parchment belongs to Potter. I have seen it before, I recognize it! Potter is here! Potter, in his Invisibility Cloak!" So it seems to me that when Draco went to rat on Harry after the mud- throwing incident in PoA, Snape knew from Draco's description that Harry had an IC and may have told Draco or muttered something about it in Draco's presence. Now I'm wondering if Snape ever saw James use it at school. Could James have used it to play more pranks on Snape which increases Snape's enmity towards Harry once he knew for sure Harry had the IC? Beverly From derek at rhinobunny.com Fri Dec 12 01:08:58 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 17:08:58 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bill's Visit In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20031211090757.024db050@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031211162932.025a1180@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86952 >> Derek: >> In GoF, the trio are in their fourth year, and the Weasley >> twins are in their sixth. If Bill had graduated only five >> years before, then he'd be younger than the twins, and only >> a year older than the trio... >Meri: >I'm sorry, perhaps I am reading your answer wrong, but if Bill had >graduated five years before GoF that would make him at least eight >years ahead of HRH (he would have left the seven year school one >year before they started) and at least five years older than the >twins (who would have been in their first or second year when he was >a seventh year). Maybe you could explain your logic, because it is >canon that Bill's already graduated from Hogwarts and gotten a >job, so how is it possible that he could be younger than the twins. Derek: You're right; I miscalculated. I'd gotten it turned around in my head, figuring things as though he'd *started* five years before GoF. Sorry about that... don't know where my brain was. :-S But I'm still not sure there's enough time to squeeze Bill and Charlie in there. Even if we say that Gryffindor's last Quidditch Cup win with Charlie may have been early in his Quidditch career rather than at the end of it (which seems odd, if their Seeker was really good enough to play professionally), then Charlie had to have graduated no later than 1989. We know that Slytherin had won the last seven Quidditch Cups as of the time HRH started. That would mean Slytherin had won in the school years ending in 1985-1991, with Gryffindor's last win coming in the school year ending in 1984. Since Harry was the only first-year player in a century, we know 1983-84 couldn't have been Charlie's first year; it had to be at least his second, with him starting in the 1982-83 school year. So this would mean that Charlie graduated in 1989. Since Bill is older, he would have graduated no later than 1988. If he'd graduated in 1988, it would have been more than five years between then and the events of GoF (which start in 1994). And all this is a best-case scenario, wherein we assume that Gryffindor failed to win the Quidditch Cup five times in Charlie's last five years as Seeker, despite his pro-caliber talent. It seems much more likely that the Quidditch Cup win for Gryffindor in 1984 before the Slytherin streak was in fact Charlie's *last* year, and he attended Hogwarts from 1977-1984. Although, if that's the case, it is somewhat odd that there would be a 9-10 year gap between Bill/Charlie and Percy. That long a gap between siblings certainly isn't unheard of, but it's somewhat unusual to have two kids, wait ten years, then have five more... - Derek From olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org Thu Dec 11 23:47:21 2003 From: olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org (olivierfouquet2000) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 23:47:21 -0000 Subject: Why the number of students is ambiguous In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86953 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > We've often wondered why JKR seems unsettled as to how > many students there are in a House. 70? (7 years times 10 > students) 200? (The number of Slytherins at a Quidditch match) > 250? (JKR's interview saying there are about a thousand > students at Hogwarts). > > I think its ambiguous because she is skating her way around > group dynamics. She doesn't want to have a dissident faction of > Gryffindors, and that would be inevitable (in the real world) if > there were hundreds of them. So Harry's house seems to be > small. Now Olivier : Exactly. JKR's intent is not to depict a logically consistent world but a psychologically consistent one. It is therefore pointless to argue whether it is possible for Hagrid to teach a practical Care of Magical Creatures lesson (e.g the Nifflers ones) with both the Slytherins and the Gryffindors (that would be around 70 kids if JKR's answer is taken literally) or for McGonagall to be the only Transfiguration teacher (she would then be teaching 20 of classes of ten students even in the very minimal hypothesis). In both cases (and in many more), there are psychological meanings lying beneath and they are the ones that really matter. > She does want there to be a dissident faction of Slytherins (the > ones who stood to honor Harry at the end of GoF), and that > wouldn't make sense if there were many fewer than one > hundred. Dissidents would then be perceived as individual > non-conformists like Luna, rather than a fraction of the whole. > > But Rowling wants us to perceive that Slytherin and Gryffindor > are the same size, as implied by the classes where there seem > to be ten of each. No wonder we can't get the math to work. > > Pippin Now Olivier The troubling thing with HP is that the books are not purely symbolic or psychologic (symbolically purer works would be IMO LotR or His Dark Material), they also depict a world that is so close to ours that it is possible to identify with it on a realistic ground. As I have read in this list (but sadly cannot remind whom to credit for this idea), JKR has created a diagonal world. So it is inevitable that the two aspect sometimes contradict with no hope of reconciliation. Olivier, resident of Symbolic Alley From rredordead at aol.com Thu Dec 11 22:54:53 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 22:54:53 -0000 Subject: Photographs in the WW Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86954 I have a query about photographs in the WW. As we all know they move. But do they reflect the current image of the witch or wizard? Or the image of the Witch/Wizard at the time the photo was taken? Or either, being the choice of the witch/wizard at the time the picture is taken. Perhaps there is a choice of film stock: Aging or Non-Aging Photographs. I began wondering about this when Harry was looking at the photos of the escaped DEs in the newspaper in OotP. Particularly at Bellatrix. Page 544, American Edition says "She had long, dark hair that looked unkempt and straggly in the picture" and "Like Sirius, she retained vestiges of great looks, but something - perhaps Azkaban - had taken most of her beauty." This seems to reflect her current physical state in Azkaban, not as she was when she was first arrested. Which is when mug shots are taken in our world. So either the photos magically age with the witch/wizard or the Ministry takes regular photographs of its inmates. Now that would seem like a waste of time if a witch/wizard is in Azkaban for life and there is no possibility of escape, which was the case before Sirius Black. Unfortunately the pictures of Harry's parents don't come with a description, I don't think. So they are no help. The movies are unreliable, although I'll admit the PoA publicity mug shot of Gary Oldman as Sirius got me thinking about this again. (And is very good I think.) The James and Lily in the first two films are obviously over 30. However, if the photos do age with time, that would be an accurate physical portrait of Lily and James now, well...1991/2. This is not a mind blowingly interesting post but I was thinking that if the pictures do age with time it would be a good way to track down witches/wizards who have been lost, on the run, disappeared etc. Sirius, and now Bellatrix, would be reluctant to change their appearance while on the run if their photographs would give away what they look like now. Also think of the implications for Metamorphmaguses. Do their photos change as they do? I was curious if anyone else had any thoughts on this. Mandy From d.marchel at comcast.net Thu Dec 11 21:18:53 2003 From: d.marchel at comcast.net (Dysis) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 21:18:53 -0000 Subject: Polyjuice Potion In-Reply-To: <20031211113737.5878.qmail@web25104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86955 udder_pen_dragon wrote: > My Question is: What do you think, would be the result, if > someone took Polyjuice Potion with one of Goyle/Harry's hairs > in it? Imo, the person who takes Goyle!Harry's hair and uses it in Polyjuice Potion will turn into Goyle. My reason for this is because Harry has literally turned into Goyle. The body that Harry turned into has Goyle's DNA. If you take a hair for Goyle!Harry, it will have Goyle's DNA. Now that I've started thinking about it, what about Goyle! Harry's brain? I mean, Harry still thinks with his own mind - even when he's inside the replicated body of Goyle. But is he using Goyle's replicated brain or his own? Maybe I should put it this way: did Harry's spirit enter Goyle's brain, or did their brains switch completely? Hmm, maybe I'm thinking a little too hard. "Dysis" From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Dec 12 00:47:51 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 00:47:51 -0000 Subject: Bill's Visit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86956 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkittyhawk97" wrote: > In GoF on pg 616 Bill said he hadn't been to Hogwarts in five years. > But, the thing is, Charlie graduated 8 years ago at that time, and > Bill is older than Charlie. Therefore, you can conclude that Bill > visited Hogwarts a couple years after graduating. But why would he > do that? Any thoughts? bboy_mn: >From recent discussions- Wed Nov 26, 2003 1:41 pm Re: Timeline for ages & events (updated yet again) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/85916 Wed Nov 19, 2003 4:49 pm Re: Challenging Lexicon timeline (was Ron's dead brother) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/85492 Rough calculation of Charlies birthday Wed Nov 26, 2003 11:20 am Re: Timeline for ages & events (updated yet again) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/85895 Discussion of the ages of many characters. Thu Nov 27, 2003 1:56 am Re: Timeline for ages & events (updated yet again) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/85961 Reference to Ginny's comment. For reference, there are a few quote from the various books that confirm that Bill is older that Charlie. Example- --- Quote - CoS Am Hb Pg 46 --- Narrative- Bill was the oldest Weasley borther. He and the next brother, Charlie, has already left Hogwarts. --- end quote --- Just passing it along. bboy_mn From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Thu Dec 11 23:26:32 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 23:26:32 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall Road and the Elixir of Life ( was The Diary (just where did V get In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86957 As the person who originally started this thread in message 86517, I am stunned at the things which have been dug up (quite literally) in the Riddle diary investigation. Here are some more very strange things to add to the cauldron: 1. On a history of Vauxhall website I found the following explanation of the origin of the name 'Vauxhall'. Apparently it derives from someone bearing a griffin on his coat of arms..any echoes of Gryffindor here ?? And he seems to have lived in a Fawkes Hall... 'the young widowed daughter of the Fitzgerold family, Margaret de Redvers, had a house in what is now Vauxhall. She married a mercenary soldier Fulk le Breant who was hired to do some of the dirtier military deeds of King John (1166-1216). Fulk thus acquired Margaret's London house whose site gradually came to be known as Fulk's Hall. This became corrupted over the years to Fawkes Hall, Foxhall and then Vauxhall. In return for his dirty deeds, Fulk was granted the manor of Luton by King John. He was also given the right to bear his own coat of arms and chose the mythical griffin as his heraldic emblem. The griffin thus became associated with both Vauxhall and Luton in the early 13th century.' (http://www.storyoflondon.com - and search on Vauxhall in menu on left of home page) 2. Stockwell Orphanage Next, Lexicon Steve has contributed to the discussion by suggesting that Voldemort's orphanage has been 'convincingly' identified as Stockwell Orphanage. Actually, 'convincing' only turns out to mean that this orphanage is the only one identified in the Vauxhall area at this period. This argument also presupposes Riddle had to have been living in Vauxhall in order to have bought the diary, which is not necessarily the case. Unfortunately for Steve, I found the following footnote on a site about the founder of the Stockwell Orphanage, a religious philanthropist called Spurgeon: NOTES: With the outbreak of World War II and the evacuation of children from London, the London history of Spurgeon's Orphanage came to a close. At the end of the war the trustees decided to build at Birchington where they owned some forty acres of land. In 1953 the new buildings were ready for occupation. The orphanage has been named Spurgeon's Homes and still maintains links with the tabernacle. (see: http://www.spurgeon.org/misc/bio12.htm) This note supports one of my original contentions (set out in post 86637), that the authorities made every effort to get children out of London during the war, and certainly an official children's home of good standing, such as this orphanage, would have been one of the first to be cleared. I'm afraid Tom Riddle could not have been living there after the outbreak of war in 1939. 3. Also, in support of my point that this area of London was very badly damaged in the war, and was a major target for the bombers, I found these two comments: - Vauxhall, Kennington and the Blitz. About 2,500 bombs and rockets fell on Lambeth during the Second World War, many of them in Vauxhall in an attempt to hit the railways and the Thames bridges. - Vauxhall Bridge Road was constructed in 1816 as an approach to the new Vauxhall Bridge. Only a few of the original properties remain. (these comments are on: http://www.vauxhallsociety.org.uk/) So, what's really going on here ? My thoughts are: 4. Its possible that Tom Riddle lived at the Stockwell orphanage before the war. He was born in 1927, and would have been 12 at the outbreak of war in 1939, ie he had started at Hogwarts. Although the orphanage children would have been relocated somewhere safer, he would then have been familiar with that area of London. However, I don't know why he ended up there in the first place; justcarol67 suggested (86841) that his parents met and lived in London, but this isn't the case. In the re-birthing scene in the graveyard, Riddle says about his parent's relationship: 'my mother, a witch who lived here in this village, fell in love with him.' (GOF p560 UK edition) 5. Now what if Tom Riddle was sent back to Little Hangleton for safety, wherever that is ? Wartime evacuees were sent hundreds of miles from their homes - there are many sad stories of loss and misery. The orphanage would have kept records of where its children came from, perhaps they were dispersed back to their original geographical locations during the war ? And young Tom Riddle was recognised by his striking looks by the people who took him in, and the death warrant of the Riddle Snrs was sealed....... Like Harry, he may also have resembled his mother as well as his father, prompting people to talk about who he might be. 6. Then there is the mysterious and extremely fascinating reference found by linocow200 to the illustration by Phiz of the 'The Ruined House in Vauxhall Rd', for a book entitled 'Auriol or the Elixir of Life' by William Harrison Ainsworth (described as a 'king of historical potboilers', whose other novels include one called 'Rookwood' - great catch this !). Although this was drawn in 1844, could the young Tom Riddle, with his latent magical powers have discovered a wizarding site at this location, whilst playing truant from the orphanage ? Could this be the same site as Fawkes Hall, mentioned earlier in this post ? 7. I am still convinced there is a convoluted, and age-old story to emerge of muggle/wizard lineages and bloodlines - as outlined in post 86517. I still think it is no accident that all the roads we have investigated in this vicinity are no more than a shortish walk from Westminster, the seat of the British government and the House of Lords. Post after post on this list come to much the same conclusion about Voldemort - as we have seen him - he really seems quite incompetent. So who is pulling the strings ? Who was supporting Tom Riddle, paying for his education all those years ago, and wanted a little chat with his protege, but had to make Riddle come back to London in dangerous wartime conditions to do it ? Not a wizard, or he could have apparated anywhere. No, someone who needed to be within sound of the division bell in the Houses of Parliament, I think. Carolyn From drednort at alphalink.com.au Fri Dec 12 01:32:42 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:32:42 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Coming of age in the WW In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FD9B56A.4309.CBBFBB@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 86958 On 11 Dec 2003 at 21:51, Geoff Bannister wrote: > Geoff: > This reminds me of something that has really annoyed me whenever I > read it. > > Umbridge told Harry and Co that they were banned from playing > Quidditch ever again. That, of course, could only apply to Hogwarts. > Presumably what she meant was ever again at the school. > > But my main irritation is the woman's arrogance in confiscating the > brooms. Harry's broom is a valuable possession and is his own > personal property; she has no right to remove it. Perhaps if he had > felt more secure, he might have remonstrated with her. Whenever I > read that section, I find myself echoing Hermione's words - "You hag, > you evil hag", "That foul, lying, twisting old gargoyle", (words she > used to describe the "truly delightful woman" after her inspection of > Hagrid if you've lost the quote). I don't know.. I had my own personal valuable property confiscated while I was at school, on a couple of occasions - and it never even would have occurred to me to protest about it. As far as I was concerned, the teacher had absolutely every right to confiscate it, and I don't find it at all surprising that Harry would have a similar attitude. This is contingent on the understanding that you would *eventually* get it back - that it wouldn't be somehow disposed of - but as long as it wasn't gone forever, I can't see that Harry would have any reason to doubt Umbridge's right to do exactly what she did in that case. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From entropymail at yahoo.com Fri Dec 12 00:44:16 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 00:44:16 -0000 Subject: Anyone got Phoenix handy.... In-Reply-To: <25DB3ED462C@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86959 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rachel Lewis wrote: > that could give me the quote from the Christmas chapter > where Sirius is heard singing "God Rest Ye Merry > Hippogriffs"...? Just the line before and including it. > > Many thanks! "I'm not the weapon after all, thought Harry. His heart swelled with happiness and relief, and he felt like joining in as they heard Sirius tramping past their door toward Buckbeak's room, singing "God Rest You, Merry Hippogriffs" at the top of his voice." :: Entropy :: From meriaugust at yahoo.com Fri Dec 12 00:27:25 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 00:27:25 -0000 Subject: The title Madam was: Hogwarts Teachers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86961 > > Carol wrote: > > Doesn't the fact that some of the teachers and staff members are > > addressed as "Madame" indicate that they are or have been married? > Or does it only indicate that they're not professors? Snipped > Mandy here: snipped > Madam is a title that implies a certain amount of earned respect. > > Just as a footnote: In England when little girl starts acing out and > being bossy to adults she is often referred to as a 'Proper Little > Madam.' > > Mandy Also, in support of Mandy, when a woman is given a post in the US presidential cabinet, she is called Madam Secretary, as would a female ambassador or president. Madam simply implies respect where there is no other official term to use. Meri From slytherin501 at yahoo.es Thu Dec 11 20:37:28 2003 From: slytherin501 at yahoo.es (Sembei Grindelwald) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 20:37:28 -0000 Subject: Sleeping Dragon? Was Re: Lucius fears Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86962 Mandy "ghinghapuss" wrote: > Besides Draco has to be the sleeping dragon of the Hogwarts' > motto (as nothing is coincidence in HP land, right?) and the > death of his father wouldn't just be a tickle it would be a > great big mallet to the head. I think Harry is the sleeping dragon of the Hogwarts motto, and LV is tickling him. Gustavo From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Dec 12 02:46:05 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (ariadnemajic) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 02:46:05 -0000 Subject: Lucius fears Voldemort Was: Are Malfoy and Fudge the real masterminds? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86963 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "travellerrose" wrote: > This post particularly caught my eye because it highlights one of the > reasons I love JR's book so much - she has such a sure grasp of > history and human nature. > It is often pointed out by historians that Hitler was the complete > opposite of everything he espoused - he wasn't pure Aryan blood, he > didn't have the tall, blond, blue eyed physical Aryan characteristics > that he wanted to dominate the world, but whether this distinction > made no difference to his followers, or they simply didn't notice it, > they remained slavishly loyal to him and his persecution of non- Aryan > people - the similarities between Hitler and LV are not coincidence, > I think. > Fanatics do not use reason, or question their leaders, as was shown > through the six years of World War II. Jen: I'm glad you de-lurked, travellerrose, because this is a compelling thought. I think followers like Bella, Rodolphus, Barty Crouch and perhaps other DE's would fall into the fanatic category--willing to do anything for LV regardless of his history. (Although I did wonder why Bella was so angered when Harry brought up LV's half-blood status at the DOM--is she surprised, or perhaps doesn't consider him human anymore and thus blood status isn't relevant?) The difference with Lucius is he's not a fanatic in any way. He's cunning, deceitful, slimy, etc., but loyal? In the extreme form required by Voldemort? No, loyalty isn't one of his strengths, unless you count loyalty to self! So I do think blood status would make a difference to Lucius, even if not to the rest of the DE's. From lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net Fri Dec 12 01:26:42 2003 From: lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net (Lliannanshe) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 01:26:42 -0000 Subject: Hog's Head Barman In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86964 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jjpandy" wrote: > Can you please tell where the first reference to Aberforth and the > inappropriate charms on a goat occurred in the books? Is this a > difference between UK and US editions? US Edition GOF / Chp 24 / pg 454 **Professor Dumbledore speaking ** "My own brother, Aberforth, was prosecuted for practicing inappropriate charms on a goat. ..." Lliannanshe From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Fri Dec 12 00:42:08 2003 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 00:42:08 -0000 Subject: Teachers' workload In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86966 Booby J wrote: > The Hogwarts teachers are overworked! Think of McGonagall. She > teaches each of the four houses individually for each of the first > five years -- that's 20 classes. And if each class is one hour long > and if it meets twice a week, that's 40 hours of classes. Plus her > NEWT classes. Plus reading all those homework assignments that > Harry complains about -- it must take half an hour just to read > Hermione's parchments alone. Forget about the house-elves, Hermy, > help the teachers! Now Neri: I wondered about number of teaching hours myself for some time. The problem is actually even worse than you presented it. See Harry's schedule in the lexicon http://www.hp-lexicon.org/calendar_op.html . Regarding checking homework assignments, however, I'd be very surprised if a competent witch such as Prof. McGonagal does not have a Homework Checking Quill or something of that sort. I'm sure there are many ways magic can spare you tedious teaching work, although I'm not going to think about them because it makes me sick with envy (I was a university instructor myself). Neri From aldhelm at earthlink.net Fri Dec 12 03:23:54 2003 From: aldhelm at earthlink.net (carin_in_oh) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 03:23:54 -0000 Subject: The Rare Cloaks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86968 Further to the discussion of the rarity and nature of the cloaks: We do learn a little bit more about them in FB&WTFT, p. 9 (US ed.): "Demiguise: ...The Demiguise is found in the Far East, though only with great difficulty, for this beast is able to make itself invisible when threatened, and can be seen only by wizards skilled in its capture...The whole body is covered with long, fine, silky, silvery hair. Demiguise pelts are highly valued as the hair may be spun into Invisibility Cloaks." Now this doesn't make clear whether the invisibility of the cloaks comes from the physical qualities of the hair (with or without additional enchantment), or from some part of the magical capabilities of the Demiguise that linger in its hair even when it's been skinned. (Note that JKR says "pelts" which to me suggests that people kill and skin the DG, rather than shearing it :) The fact that the qualities of the cloak when worn by a wizard mimic the natural strengths and weaknesses of the DG make me suspect that the hair carries some magical essence of the animal: that is, the wizard uses the cloak "to make itself invisible when threatened" BUT the cloaking can be penetrated by certain skilled wizards. The difficulty of capturing the DG would, of course, explain the rarity of the cloaks. Carin From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Dec 12 06:10:20 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 06:10:20 -0000 Subject: Photographs in the WW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86970 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > I have a query about photographs in the WW. > > As we all know they move. But do they reflect the current image of > the witch or wizard? Or the image of the Witch/Wizard at the time > the photo was taken? > > ...edited... > > Also think of the implications for Metamorphmaguses. Do their photos > change as they do? > > I was curious if anyone else had any thoughts on this. > > Mandy bboy_mn: Nothing more than opinion and pure speculation- I don't think photographs age the people in them. That would seem counter to the point of photographs. When I look at an old school photo, I don't do it because I want to know what I look like today, if I want to know that, I look in a mirror; I look at school photos to remember what I looked like back then. However, while I don't think photos age naturally, I do think they can be aged. Perhaps someone on the paper used a spell or a charm, to age old photos so they resembled how the people look today; even muggle do that. In addition, I have this theory that photos are like miniature stage plays. The subjects in the photo are like actors in that they play out the context in which the photo is taken and in some case, the context in which the photo is used. Just thought I would throw that last bit in for free. bboy_mn bboy From erinellii at yahoo.com Fri Dec 12 05:07:26 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 05:07:26 -0000 Subject: Bill's Visit, other Bill questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86971 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatlit2003" wrote: > I have some questions regarding Bill. Was he at Hogwarts when Snape > first started teaching there? Erin: Yes. Even following the timeline for Bill where he is the oldest possible, around 30 yrs, he still would have had one or two years of Snape. greatlit2003: In > OoP, in Grimmauld Pl, when the kids are telling Harry about the > Order, Ginny mentions that Bill doesn't like Snape either. (sorry I > don't have my book with me for page numbers). This comment by Ginny > has always seemed a bit odd to me, a bit out of place. The kids > rarely talk about Bill or Charlie, and we know next to nothing about these characters' beliefs. A comment thrown into the conversation like that is just unusual. How would Bill, presumably spending years in Egypt, know Snape enough to dislike him? I think it highly likely that something permanently bad will happen to one of the Weasleys, > whether they die or turn out to be a traitor. Percy is the obvious > choice, so knowing JKR, it won't be him. I have noticed that in the > past two books, a "cool" person has died. First Cedric, and then > Sirius. Bill is also described as being cool in GoF. A clue or a red > herring? > > Any thoughts? Erin: I sense that perhaps you are ready for a BB GUN. BB GUN stands for Bitter Bill Goes Undeniably Nefarious. It posits that Bill will turn out to be the spy or traitor who will betray the Order of the Phoenix. And, yes, Bill's cool clothes are important to it. If you're interested, the first two parts are posts 85610 and 85729. I've been a bit stalled on the third part, but am still planning to get it posted before Christmas, and then after Christmas, plan on re-posting the whole thing in a non-TBAY format. Bill's relationship with Snape is extremely important. You'll have noticed that in each book, Snape has a special relationship with every suspect of wrongdoing, and JKR takes extreme care to show Harry Snape's reactions to each suspect, including all the DADA teachers, Karkaroff, and Filch, who showed his true colors in OoP. Bill's dislike of Snape fits this pattern. Be wary of Bill. Erin From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Dec 12 07:11:32 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 07:11:32 -0000 Subject: Why the number of students is ambiguous In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86972 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > We've often wondered why JKR seems unsettled as to how > many students there are in a House. 70? (7 years times 10 > students) 200? (The number of Slytherins at a Quidditch match) > 250? (JKR's interview saying there are about a thousand > students at Hogwarts). > > I think its ambiguous because she is skating her way around > group dynamics. ... edited ... > > Pippin bboy_mn: First of all, JKR like any author is not obligated to make the numbers add up. Her highest priority is to make the world she creates believable WHEN YOU ARE READING IT, which I think she succeeds at very nicely. As I read the books, even now after many re-reads, they seem totally consistent and believable. It's only after the fact when I attempt to do detailed analysis and attempt to resolve the number that I see the inconsistences. So JKR has done the only job she is really require to do, and this is create a believable world. Points- JKR said the school was 1,000. My approach when the world doesn't work, is to invent likely reasons why it could work under those circumstance. The resulting conclusion is that JKR is not giving us a student head count when she says 1,000; that is, not the size of the current enrollment, but the size of the school. Regardless of how many students are enrolled at any given time, the size or capacity, if you will, of the school remains the same. So, Hogwarts has a capacity of about 1,000. Also, keep in mind that there appears to be a significant amount of the school that is unused; we see many unused classrooms during Harry's night time strolls. Seven years, times four houses with 10 people in Harry's Gryffindor class year becomes (7 X 4 X 10 = 280). There is just one problem with that, we are making a great leaping assumption. We don't know that the class years are divided equally. The school I went to had an average grade size of 25, however, there was one class year right in the middle of it all that with only had 15 students. That's a 40% deviation in size. We also don't know that the houses are equally divided. There are plenty of people in this world who are hard working (Hufflepuff) and many people who are intelligent (Ravenclaw), but not that many people who are outstandingly courageous (Gryffindor) and not that many people who are excedingly ambitious and cunning (Slytherin). Logic says there would be many more people in Hufflepuff, since is real life there are far more factory workers and laborers (Hufflepuff) than their are managers and executives (Ravenclaw). Extenting that further, there are far more laborers and executives than there are notable heroes (Gryffindor) and outstandingly rich and successful businessmen and politicians (Slytherin). I think a very modest ratio (based on real life and right off the top of my head) would be 3Huf:3Rav:1Gyf:1Sly. I might be persuaded to modify that to 3H:2R:1G:1S or 2H:2R:1G:1S. 3Huf:3Rav:1Gyf:1Sly yields a school population of 560. 3H:2R:1G:1S yields a school population of 490. 2H:2R:1G:1S yields a school population of 420. A far more real life estimated ratio would be 10H:4R:1G:1S which in turn yields a school population of 1120. (10 laborers: 4 college students: 1 hero: 1 great success) Now, the most obvious question is, how can there be so many more Hufflepuffs when Harry as classes with Hufflepuffs and there only appears to be 10 in the class? The answer is Harry has the 'overflow' Hufflepuffs in his class, and there is another full class of Hufflepuff students. Illustration of possiblities. A Single Class Year in Herbology- Class 1 = 20 Hufflepuffs Class 2 = 10 Hufflepuffs + 10 Slytherins Class 3 - 10 Hufflepuffs + 10 Gryffindors That gives us 40 Hufflepuffs for every 10 Gryffindors. Remember, that just to illustrate a possibility, not state a likely fact. Now, to what I think is the REAL reason why we can get an accurate count from the available information. Because JKR is busy telling a story, and she does so in an extremely compact and efficient manner. There simply isn't time or space to detail and account for all the deep back ground characters. Let's face it, how many Ravenclaws do we really know compared to how many are likely to be there. Forget about the most current book, and the absents of Ravenclaw is even more glaring. For that matter, how many Gryffindors do we really know by name? Not that many compared to how many are likely to be there. The story concentrates on Harry and his small circle of awareness, that means that many many background characters are going to be unaccounted for. As to my IMPRESSION from reading the story, I estimate the current enrollment between 400 and 600 students in a school with a capacity of 1,000, but then that's just me. Just a thought. bboy_mn From quigonginger at yahoo.com Fri Dec 12 10:08:17 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 10:08:17 -0000 Subject: Use of Madam (was Re: Hogwarts Teachers). In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86973 > Carol wrote: > Doesn't the fact that some of the teachers and staff members are > addressed as "Madame" indicate that they are or have been married? Or > does it only indicate that they're not professors? Madame Pince is the > librarian and Madame Pomfrey is the school "healer" (to use Ron's > term), but Madame Hooch is a teacher, albeit, like Hagrid, not a > full-fledged professor. But these women are addressed in the same way > as Madame Rosmerta, the owner of the Three Broomsticks. Why "Madame" > if they're not married? And yet Mrs. Weasley and even the late Mrs. > Black go by the ordinary (Muggle-sounding) "Mrs." Maybe "Madame" is > used by married women who work outside the home? (big snip) Ginger speculates: I may be totally wrong and failing in the memory department, in which case I beg the forgiveness of those assembled, but does the WW use Mrs? It seems to me, and I have racked my memory, that the only time we hear Mrs is when it is used by Harry or the narrator. Harry was raised as a Muggle, and I think the narrator is a Muggle (or is at least writing for them), so the use of Mrs would be cultural. We hear of Mrs Weasley, Black, and Figg from Harry's and the narrator's POV, but the WW uses their given names or "mad old bat" or another appropriate appelation. To the best of my memory, wizards and witches always use Madam unless the term Professor supercedes. Can anyone think of an example where a witch is referred to as Mrs by anyone who was raised in the WW? This has had me wondering for some time. I try to remember it on rereads, but get distracted by the story :) Amusing(?) OT sidenote: I once had a roommate from a part of the country where Madam was a form of address. Around here it is Ma'am. Madam is the propriator of a house of ill repute. I was shocked to be addressed that way until we sorted it out. Ginger, who prefers to be referred to as a "spinster" From drednort at alphalink.com.au Fri Dec 12 10:48:30 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 21:48:30 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Use of Madam (was Re: Hogwarts Teachers). In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FDA37AE.11185.2127EB@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 86974 On 12 Dec 2003 at 10:08, quigonginger wrote: > It seems to me, and I have racked my memory, that the only time we > hear Mrs is when it is used by Harry or the narrator. Harry was > raised as a Muggle, and I think the narrator is a Muggle (or is at > least writing for them), so the use of Mrs would be cultural. > > We hear of Mrs Weasley, Black, and Figg from Harry's and the > narrator's POV, but the WW uses their given names or "mad old bat" or > another appropriate appelation. To the best of my memory, wizards > and witches always use Madam unless the term Professor supercedes. > > Can anyone think of an example where a witch is referred to as Mrs by > anyone who was raised in the WW? This has had me wondering for some > time. I try to remember it on rereads, but get distracted by the > story :) Well, we have Mrs. Norris (-8 Besides that, Snape reading from the Daily Prophet in Chamber of Secrets refers to Mrs. Hetty Bayliss as one of the Muggles who saw the flying Ford Anglia - this suggests the term is not unknown in the Wizarding World, though it is an example of it only being applied to a Muggle. We also have 'Mrs. Skowers' Magical Mess Remover' (CoS) which would at least imply the use of the title for a Witch (also referenced at the Quidditch World Cup). In GoF, Mrs. Weasley writes a letter to Mr. and Mrs. Dursley - so she is at least familiar with the term. OK - Crouch in Goblet of Fire, refers to Mr. and Mrs. Fudge - seems the term is used in the Wizarding World. > > Amusing(?) OT sidenote: I once had a roommate from a part of the > country where Madam was a form of address. Around here it is Ma'am. > Madam is the propriator of a house of ill repute. I was shocked to > be addressed that way until we sorted it out. > > Ginger, who prefers to be referred to as a "spinster" > > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From sophierom at yahoo.com Fri Dec 12 04:14:13 2003 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 04:14:13 -0000 Subject: Lucius fears Voldemort Was: Are Malfoy and Fudge the real masterminds? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86975 "travellerrose" > > It is often pointed out by historians that Hitler was the complete opposite of everything he espoused - he wasn't pure Aryan blood, he didn't have the tall, blond, blue eyed physical Aryan characteristics that he wanted to dominate the world, but whether this distinction made no difference to his followers, or they simply didn't notice it, they remained slavishly loyal to him and his persecution of non-Aryan people - the similarities between Hitler and LV are not coincidence, I think. Fanatics do not use reason, or question their leaders, as was shown through the six years of World War II. Jen: > The difference with Lucius is he's not a fanatic in any way. He's > cunning, deceitful, slimy, etc., but loyal? In the extreme form > required by Voldemort? No, loyalty isn't one of his strengths, > unless you count loyalty to self!> Sophierom: The analogy to Nazy Germany is an interesting one, and there are many parallels, some of which have already been mentioned in other posts(Fudge=Neville Chamberlain, for example.... sorry I can't remember the post #). And even Lucius, who, as Jen argues convincingly, is not a fanatic, could fit into this analogy. The question is, how? Is he one of the German military men who went along for the ride, hoping for glory and power, but somewhere along the way realized that the leader was making poor strategy decisions (Stalingrad=DoM raid)? Or is he Stalin, who made a deal with Hitler in the early part of the war but when betrayed, formed an uneasy alliance with the opposing side? Will LV leave Lucius to rot in Azkaban, thereby creating an opening for such an uneasy alliance between Lucius and the Order? It certainly seems that LV, if on the ball, would kill Lucius as soon as his use ran out ... but then again, LV probably shouldn't have tried the stunts at the DoM ... he's getting a little desperate and blind. Another interesting question raised by this analogy to Nazi Germany is, why would the WW be so seduced by LV in the first place? Hitler played to German anxieties after WWI; what anxieties existed in the WW to allow LV to gain so many followers? Did Grindelwald's fall just previous to LVI have anything to do with it? Or is Grindelwald unrelated to LV's rise? Looking forward to your ideas. Sophierom From kcox at wooster.edu Fri Dec 12 04:24:12 2003 From: kcox at wooster.edu (its_a_monstertrucker) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 04:24:12 -0000 Subject: The Kacky Snorgle Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86976 I've been thinking about Luna Lovegood and her rather fanciful theories about the world. I don't think that the crumple-horned snorkack and friends are real, although it would be fun just to see Hermione's reaction. Rather, I like the idea that Luna is reacting to her mother's death. As a way of dealing with the grief, she retreats into a fantasy world of heliopaths and blibbering humdingers. I think it's intriguing that JKR mentioned Luna and Hermione being opposites, because I think they each have something to learn from the other. Maybe by the end of the series, Luna will teach Hermione not to be so naive about SPEW, and Hermione will teach Luna to look at the world more rationally. From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Dec 12 07:39:40 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (geoff_bannister) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 07:39:40 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall Road and the Elixir of Life ( was The Diary (just where did V get In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86977 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: Carolyn: > As the person who originally started this thread in message 86517, I > am stunned at the things which have been dug up (quite literally) in > the Riddle diary investigation. > With the outbreak of World War II ...... >......the authorities made every effort to get children out of > London during the war, and certainly an official children's home of > good standing, such as this orphanage, would have been one of the > first to be cleared. I'm afraid Tom Riddle could not have been living > there after the outbreak of war in 1939. Geoff: Which raises the additional point of how Tom got hold of a diary from Vauxhall Road in 1942. Carolyn: > 3. Also, in support of my point that this area of London was very > badly damaged in the war, and was a major target for the bombers, I > found these two comments: > > - Vauxhall, Kennington and the Blitz. About 2,500 bombs and rockets > fell on Lambeth during the Second World War, many of them in Vauxhall > in an attempt to hit the railways and the Thames bridges. > > - Vauxhall Bridge Road was constructed in 1816 as an approach to the > new Vauxhall Bridge. Only a few of the original properties remain. > (these comments are on: http://www.vauxhallsociety.org.uk/) Geoff: There is a point here that Vauxhall Bridge Road is /not/ in Vauxhall (which is in the Borough of Lambeth). It is north of the river and in the City of Westminster. That side of the river did not get so much danage - I knew the area well from the early 1950s. There was a lot of redevelopment on the South Bank because of bomb damage - the Festival of Britain site was out there in 1951 for example. Much of the redevelopment in that area is later. Geoff From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Fri Dec 12 05:46:37 2003 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 05:46:37 -0000 Subject: The Rare Cloaks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86978 spang_b wrote: > Hi, > We know that Harry has an invisibility cloak. And so does Moody. > But it seems nobody else( at least in the order) has one, because > they are always talking of borrowing Moody's cloak. Are they really > that rare? > Bye > Adi Yolanda here: Yes. It seems that they really are that rare. "Fantastic Beasts..." says that the animal whose hair/fur their made from is very hard to find and catch, so that alone would make the cloaks very rare and expensive. We know that Harry has one and Moody has two, but those are the only ones that have been mentioned so far. In PS/SS, Dumbledore had James cloak. I always thought that he had borrowed it from James to use. I know Dumbledore said he doesn't need a cloak, but that was in PS/SS. Maybe 10 years earlier he *did* need a cloak to turn invisible. Then again, he may have borrowed it for the Order to use and he, the leader, was responsible for borrowing it, assigning it out when necessary, and giving it back safely to James. Adi wrote in 86902: > I would guess they are very rare. Moody actually has two cloaks, > which is probably even rarer, but he does say one is 'better' than > the other. I'm not sure what makes one better than the other. Yolanda again: I assumed that better means that it is in "better" shape than the other. Since it is a cloak, it is probably subject to wear and tear just like other garments. The invisibile properties of the cloak comes from the fabric that the cloak is made of so if that gets damaged, then I assume there could be possible distortions. Of course, "better" could mean that it actually does more. All invisibility cloaks may not be equal. Perhaps the "better" ones can do more than the "plainer", cheaper ones. For example, maybe the "better" cloaks can expand to cover more people and things, but the "plainer" ones have one set size and that's it. Adi wrote in 86902: > If these cloaks can be bought, like at Diagon Alley, I wonder how > much they'd cost? And, of course, the off-repeated question, where > did James get the cloak he left to Harry? Will we ever find out? Yolanda again: I always thought that James inherited it just like Harry did. James had it with him while he was at Hogwarts. Rich or not, I don't see him as having access to the kind of funds needed to buy something that rare. However, if one was already lying around his parents' house, I can't see a "marauder" passing up packing it in his school trunk. Tom wrote in 86920: > Draco *knows* that Harry has an invisibility cloak. In PoA at > the Shreaking Shack he sees Harry's head and runs to tell Snape. and Beverly wrote in 86951: > So it seems to me that when Draco went to rat on Harry after the > mud-throwing incident in PoA, Snape knew from Draco's description > that Harry had an IC and may have told Draco or muttered something > about it in Draco's presence. Yolanda again: Actually, Draco was pretty freaked out about seeing Harry's head and he didn't figure it out by the time he reached Snape's office. Draco may have put two and two together by now or as Beverly suggested Snape may have told him or mentioned in front of Draco that Harry has an invisibility cloak, however we do not know from canon that Draco *knows* about Harry's invisibility cloak. Melissa wrote in 86933: > I think an interesting question is the nature of the cloak itself. > How does it know what to make invisible? How is it that the cloak > is not invisible itself, but rather silvery, until it is put on a > person? Does the cloak magically 'know' when to start making > something invisible? Does it have to be in physical contact with a > human? When the cloak is folded in Harry's trunk, does it render > the objects beneath it invisible? the floor of the trunk? the floor > under the trunk? How does this all work? Yolanda again: When Harry first gets the cloak, it doesn't "activate" until after he put it on. Also, whomever or whatever is under the cloak with the wearer is also invisible. Based on the above facts I assumed that the cloak renders people and what they are carrying invisible once the cloak is on. When the cloak is held or folded it appears silvery. So far, we've had no mention of it turning things invisible when it isn't on. You would think Harry would have noticed that by now as often as he's rummaged through his trunk. Yolanda who is now caught up on this post. Yay! From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Fri Dec 12 06:15:59 2003 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 06:15:59 -0000 Subject: Teachers' workload In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86979 Booby J wrote: > > The Hogwarts teachers are overworked! Think of McGonagall. > And if each class is one hour long > > and if it meets twice a week, that's 40 hours of classes. Plus > > her NEWT classes. Plus reading all those homework assignments that > > Harry complains about -- it must take half an hour just to read > > Hermione's parchments alone. Forget about the house-elves, > > Hermy, help the teachers! > > Now Neri: > I wondered about number of teaching hours myself for some time. > The problem is actually even worse than you presented it. Regarding checking homework assignments, however, I'd be very > surprised if a competent witch such as Prof. McGonagal does not > have a Homework Checking Quill or something of that sort. I'm sure > there are many ways magic can spare you tedious teaching work, although > I'm not going to think about them because it makes me sick with envy > (I was a university instructor myself). > > Neri Yolanda here: I started to add it up once, then stopped. It seemed like an awful lot of hours, so I thought I was doing it wrong. I agree with that the professors have magical ways of reducing grunt work, but I thought I'd mention this. In the movie, we have the Grey Lady in McGonagall's classroom and she appeared to be writing. For some reason, I always thought she was checking papers, since that's what McGongall also appeared to be doing. I know that isn't book canon, but it would make some sense. Getting back to the subject of workloads, McGonagall and the other Heads of House must really have full schedules. All four of them teach required courses and still find time to look after their houses. Plus, McGonagall has "Deputy Headmistress" duties on top of all that. Oh wait, and she's in the OOtP. McGonagall must be *very* organized and have a lot of energy. Yolanda From spang_b at yahoo.co.in Fri Dec 12 05:40:28 2003 From: spang_b at yahoo.co.in (spang_b) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 05:40:28 -0000 Subject: The Rare Cloaks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86980 Hi, Carin wrote: > The difficulty of capturing the DG would, of course, explain the > rarity of the cloaks. That's a nice answer but I was wondering why the Order wouldn't bother to borrow from Harry when they needed these cloaks so badly. Bye Adi From spang_b at yahoo.co.in Fri Dec 12 04:41:52 2003 From: spang_b at yahoo.co.in (spang_b) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 04:41:52 -0000 Subject: The Headmaster's Hideouts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86981 Hi, In OOTP,in the chapter The Centaur and The Sneak, Dumbledore says he's not going into hiding. We know that he hasn't gone to Grimmauld Place. So where was he till his reappearance at the Ministry and what was he doing? Bye Adi From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Fri Dec 12 13:10:14 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 13:10:14 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall Road and the Elixir of Life ( was The Diary (just where did V get In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86982 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "geoff_bannister" wrote: (snip) > There is a point here that Vauxhall Bridge Road is /not/ in Vauxhall (which is in the Borough of Lambeth). It is north of the river and in the City of Westminster. That side of the river did not get so much danage - I knew the area well from the early 1950s. There was a lot of redevelopment on the South Bank because of bomb damage - the Festival of Britain site was out there in 1951 for example. Much of the redevelopment in that area is later. Carolyn: I agree Geoff. It seems much more likely that the Vauxhall Rd referred to on the back of the diary is the old name for Kennington Lane/Kennington Road rather than a shortened version of Vauxhall Bridge Rd - thanks to yours and Shaun's researches in this area. But it doesn't change my argument, in fact strengthens it - the Vauxhall area south of the river was very badly bomb damaged, as you say. So what was a 15/16 year old wizard doing, poking about the ruins in 1942/43? He certainly wasn't living at Stockwell orphanage (if he ever did)and its a strange area for a shopping trip when he could have picked up his muggle diary much more conveniently at any of the major railway stations, if he was just coming through London on his way to Hogwarts. The murder victim who was buried in Vauxhall Baptist Church is certainly very sinister, and the date of 1942 is curiously apt for our story. It could be Tom had read about it in the muggle newspapers and was just going for a look, as people do.. Or maybe poor Mrs Rachel Dobkin was a witch and was murdered for quite another reason than her nagging by her muggle husband.. From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Fri Dec 12 14:10:03 2003 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:10:03 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Headmaster's Hideouts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FD9CC3B.8030800@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86983 spang_b wrote: > Hi, > In OOTP,in the chapter The Centaur and The Sneak, Dumbledore says > he's not going into hiding. We know that he hasn't gone to Grimmauld > Place. So where was he till his reappearance at the Ministry and what > was he doing? > Bye > Adi > digger: He was in his office all the time! With it magically sealed, who was to know? So he had all his home comforts, food from the house elves, etc. Thats my guess anyway. From rredordead at aol.com Fri Dec 12 15:25:09 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 15:25:09 -0000 Subject: Parelles and why was the WW seduced? Was: Re: Lucius fears Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86984 > Sophierom wrote: > The analogy to Nazy Germany is an interesting one, and there are > many parallels, And even Lucius, who, as Jen argues convincingly, is not a fanatic, could fit into this analogy. The question is, how? Is he one of the German military men who went along for the ride, hoping for glory and power, but somewhere along the way realized that the leader was making poor strategy decisions (Stalingrad=DoM raid)? Or is he Stalin, who made a deal with Hitler in the early part of the war but when betrayed, formed an uneasy alliance with the opposing side? Mandy here: I've mentioned in past posts there are similarities between Lucius Malfoy and Oswald Mosley, the British Fascist who supported Hitler. If Hitler had won the war no doubt Mosley would have been in a position to take over and control Britain. Whether this was Mosley's goal I don't know. Also mentioned in post 78554 and 78558 the Black sisters are a parallel to the Mitford Sisters. Narcissa = Diana Mitford Mosley (blond, beautiful and married to Oswald), Bella=Unity Mitford (the fanatical fascist), Andromica = Jessica Mitford (the socialist who dreamed of assassinating Hitler). Sophierom wrote: > Another interesting question raised by this analogy to Nazi Germany > is, why would the WW be so seduced by LV in the first place? Hitler > played to German anxieties after WWI; what anxieties existed in the > WW to allow LV to gain so many followers? Did Grindelwald's fall > just previous to LVI have anything to do with it? Or is Grindelwald unrelated to LV's rise? Mandy again: Very interesting point. I was thinking there could have been a strained relationship with the muggle world. In our world the persecution of pagan and nature based religions has been strong since the birth of Christianity 2000 years ago. Ofcourse the Harryverse is a separate entity but judging how the Dursleys consider the WW it wouldn't surprise me if more muggles would feel that strongly against Witches/Wizards if they knew of their existence. Fear of the unexplained, magic is most certainly unexplained, is a powerful force. Most Witches/Wizards seem to be tolerant of the Muggle world but look down on muggles as being 'less' somehow, lacking in ability. Even the word `muggle' suggests confused and lost. Yet the Muggle world is far larger and in respect more powerful than the WW. After all the WW has gone into hiding for its own survival. Has it not? This seems to me similar to the pe-WWII German fear of the Jews who they considered less important but had enormous power, financially and strength in their commitment to their religion. Even the kind and tolerant Weasleys seem to me treat muggles with a certain amount of distain. Looking down on the poor dears because they have to do everything the hard way. I imagine most Witches/Wizards feel that way and it wouldn't be hard for a Wizard like LV to play on those feelings and fears. After all what self- respecting Witch or Wizard would want a Muggle in charge? Mandy From warhound at accessus.net Fri Dec 12 14:58:12 2003 From: warhound at accessus.net (Beverly Adams) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:58:12 -0000 Subject: Magical Quills (Was: Teachers' workload) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86985 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > Booby J wrote: > > The Hogwarts teachers are overworked! Then Neri wrote: Regarding checking homework assignments, however, I'd be very > surprised if a competent witch such as Prof. McGonagal does not have > a Homework Checking Quill or something of that sort. Beverly adds: Ooooooh, that does make sense. There are two quills that I can remember that do magical things. The first is Rita Skeeters Quick Quotes Quill and then Umbridge's evil, foul, revolting quill that makes a person inflict damage on him/herself when writing with it. (I really hate this quill and the evil, foul, revolting person who makes people use it.) I also believe that Hermione put a spell on her quill when she had everyone sign the list at the beginning of the DA meetings in OotP. I say this because right after the meeting in the Hogshead, she goes into a shop to buy another quill. Since the quill she just used to have everyone sign the list had a "sneak" jinx put on it, she needed a new one for everyday work. Oh, and there is the quill that JKR said puts down the name of every magical child who will get a letter from Hogwarts. Maybe that's the Headmasters magical quill?? And maybe all the teachers have magical quills to keep up with all the grading and writing they have to do. Does Snape's quill have a thing against Harry's papers? After all, in OotP Harry gets a "D for Dreadful" mark on his paper for Snape. Speculation, speculation, speculation! Beverly From blackgold101 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 12 16:41:34 2003 From: blackgold101 at yahoo.com (Marci) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 16:41:34 -0000 Subject: The Headmaster's Hideouts In-Reply-To: <3FD9CC3B.8030800@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86986 > spang_b wrote: > > Hi, > > In OOTP,in the chapter The Centaur and The Sneak, Dumbledore says > > he's not going into hiding. We know that he hasn't gone to Grimmauld > > Place. So where was he till his reappearance at the Ministry and what > > was he doing? > > Bye > > Adi > > > > digger: > > He was in his office all the time! With it magically sealed, who was to > know? So he had all his home comforts, food from the house elves, etc. > Thats my guess anyway. ME: That was my guess as well: HOGS - Headmaster Outsmarted Grotesque She-devil HOGS KID Headmaster's Office Greatly Sealed, Kept Inside Dumbldore. I don't think he ever left Hogwarts. Marci From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Fri Dec 12 17:31:12 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 17:31:12 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Stereotyping Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86987 > >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > > Based on the experiences I've had, the women I know and what I've > > read, I believe that women are indeed insecure in their choices. So yeah, I think women are constantly re- >evaluating > > their choices and fearing that they made bad ones. We have yet to > > affirm as a culture that *both* working outside the home and >staying > > home are good, valid, valuable choices. Some of the recent > > discussions here on the list have been these anxieties spilling > > over, I think. > > > > > [snip] >Molly, your excellent explanation of why we women are sometimes a WEE >bit hypervigilant when it comes to looking for the female perspective >in children's stories, and your take on feminism. > [much good stuff snipped] I just wanted to say that I don't know that women are insecure in their choices because they re-evaluate them - though some are - as much as hyperaware that many elements may change and that sometimes choices need to be changed. For example, a woman might want to be at work full-time, gung-ho on a career and suffer the normal anxieties of leaving kids at day-care to go to work...then discover a new skill or opportunity that comes along that may permit her to work from home, at least part of the week, and take advantage of that. It's not that she's hunting for the bon-bons (and I also have *never* known an "eat bon bons" kind of stay-at-home mom - I know stay at home moms who run horse boarding stables on their property for extra income, care for foster kids as well as their own, act as the neighborhood "safe house" for kids who need a place to run if they feel threatened coming home from school...and most are constantly in motion doing all of the day to day things that are time and energy-consuming but help keep house, home, health and safety together. It can be a full time job just dashing around town trying to get the best buys and bargains on things to live frugally. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Winterize your home with tips from MSN House & Home. http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Fri Dec 12 17:39:31 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 17:39:31 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Stereotyping Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86988 > > > The fact that this is a fictional construct and > > not to be taken seriously seems to have passed > > them by. > >Uhhhhh...please excuse me while I get up off the floor and try to stop >chortling. "Not to be taken seriously"? In post number 84678 on only >the *most serious* of many Internet discussion groups devoted to these >books? Were you not taking these fictional constructs seriously when >you started a lengthy thread a few weeks ago speculating about >relationships between Dobby, the Potters and the Malfoys? > I'd just like to interject a comment on this exchange here - which I think got unnecessarily heated - because I was thinking about this very sort of comment from another list as I was coming in to work this morning: I don't think it's particularly constructive to discuss or try to choose for someone else on whether to "take something seriously" or not. If any kind of remark is patronizing, this one is. I find the filter of "take it seriously or not" to be a particularly silly one when applied to any sort of writing - the questions are more detailed: is the style good or not; if fiction, are the plot and characters convincing or not; if not fiction, are opinions clearly labelled as such and facts supported? If theories are presented, are they identified as such and not as unshakable conclusions? People take different thing seriously. They don't deserve to be attacked or ridiculed over it. If you're really concerned that someone has "lost a grip on reality" over something, discussing it with them gently (and privately) is about 1,000 times more effective if your aim is really to help and not to simply feel superior at someone else's expense. To keep this in canon: yes, it's a little disturbing to read of children expecting to receive letters from Hogwarts. But no more so than children who believe in Santa Claus. They will find out differently and outgrow it. There's no doubt at all that JKR's work is having a serious impact on our culture. Heck, it's having a serious impact on Britain's economy. It's inspiring children to read, and inspiriing discussions of right and wrong. It's inspiring other, less positive things like book banning and burning; but at least people are *thinking*. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Get holiday tips for festive fun. http://special.msn.com/network/happyholidays.armx From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Fri Dec 12 17:41:24 2003 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 17:41:24 -0000 Subject: The Rare Cloaks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86989 Diana: >>> At this point, we don't know for sure if Draco >>> knows or suspects that Harry has an invisibility >>> cloak, Tom: >> Draco *knows* that Harry has an invisibility cloak. >> In PoA at the Shreaking Shack he sees Harry's head >> and runs to tell Snape. Beverly: > We then find that Snape knows that Harry has an > Invisibility Cloak because of what Snape says to Moody > in GoF.... > So it seems to me that when Draco went to rat on Harry > after the mud-throwing incident in PoA, Snape knew from > Draco's description that Harry had an IC and may have > told Draco or muttered something about it in Draco's > presence. Doesn't Snape also see the cloak himself in PoA? I thought that he was wearing it when he showed up at the Shrieking Shack. -- Matt From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Fri Dec 12 18:27:01 2003 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 18:27:01 -0000 Subject: Teachers' workload In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86990 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > > Now Neri: > I wondered about number of teaching hours myself for some time. The > problem is actually even worse than you presented it. See Harry's > schedule in the lexicon http://www.hp- lexicon.org/calendar_op.html . > Regarding checking homework assignments, however, I'd be very > surprised if a competent witch such as Prof. McGonagal does not have > a Homework Checking Quill or something of that sort. I'm sure there > are many ways magic can spare you tedious teaching work, although I'm > not going to think about them because it makes me sick with envy (I > was a university instructor myself). > > Neri A Homework Checking Quill - sigh of envy - where could I buy one? Where could I buy one? Where could I buy one? Oooh...it's not very kind to write posts like yours. Iris, wondering whether she will feel up to even have a look at the huge pile of homework waiting for her on the desk. It will take hours and hours... Will I have enough chocolate to survive? From erinellii at yahoo.com Fri Dec 12 18:40:30 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 18:40:30 -0000 Subject: The Rare Cloaks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86991 Adi: I was wondering why the Order wouldn't > bother to borrow from Harry when they needed these cloaks so badly. Erin: Probably because Harry isn't allowed to join the Order, and he wants to. He might try to make admission to the Order the price for borrowing his cloak, and the adults don't want to start that fight again. Also, the Order is engaged in dangerous work. They lost one of Moody's cloaks already. If they lost Harry's, there wouldn't really be anything they could give him to make up for it, ICs being so rare and all. And Dumbledore may not want to risk Harry's IC being lost. Knowing the entire prophecy as he does, he may think that Harry might have more need of his cloak in the future than the Order does in the present. Erin From quigonginger at yahoo.com Fri Dec 12 18:46:07 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 18:46:07 -0000 Subject: Use of Madam (was Re: Hogwarts Teachers). In-Reply-To: <3FDA37AE.11185.2127EB@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86992 I, Ginger had previously wondered: > > Can anyone think of an example where a witch is referred to as Mrs by > > anyone who was raised in the WW? This has had me wondering for some > > time. I try to remember it on rereads, but get distracted by the > > story :) To which Shaun replied: > Well, we have Mrs. Norris (-8 > > Besides that, Snape reading from the Daily Prophet in Chamber of Secrets refers > to Mrs. Hetty Bayliss as one of the Muggles who saw the flying Ford Anglia - this > suggests the term is not unknown in the Wizarding World, though it is an example > of it only being applied to a Muggle. > > We also have 'Mrs. Skowers' Magical Mess Remover' (CoS) which would at least > imply the use of the title for a Witch (also referenced at the Quidditch World Cup). > > In GoF, Mrs. Weasley writes a letter to Mr. and Mrs. Dursley - so she is at least > familiar with the term. > > OK - Crouch in Goblet of Fire, refers to Mr. and Mrs. Fudge - seems the term is > used in the Wizarding World. Back to Ginger now: Thank you, Shaun! Yes, Mrs is heard of in the WW. Now how does one decide on Mrs or Madam? It seems that when referring to Muggles, (Bayliss, Dursley) Mrs is used, and when referring to couples (Fudge) Mr and Mrs is used. In fact, that is an interesting example, as when being referred to by himself, Fudge is called Minister rather than Mr. That leaves us with Skower and Norris. I could chalk Norris down to her being a cat, but what of Skower? Perhaps a marketing tool to produce the image of a homebody accustomed to cleaning up after a brood of children and doing it well? Maybe, just a guess here, of course, Mrs is used in conjunction to a Mr, underage women (students) are addressed as Miss by the teachers, and Madam is used independantly, as we use Ms unless the Ms prefers, for whatever reason to be addressed otherwise. Ginger, thanking Shaun for those fine examples From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Dec 12 19:55:53 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 19:55:53 -0000 Subject: The title Madam was: Hogwarts Teachers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86993 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > Mandy here: > > I always thought Madam is a professional title for a female. Married > or single. ...edited... > > Madam is a title that implies a certain amount of earned respect. > > Just as a footnote: In England when little girl starts acing out and > being bossy to adults she is often referred to as a 'Proper Little > Madam.' > > Mandy bboy_mn: I speculate that Madam is a courtesy title used when addressing an older woman deserving of respect when that persons marital status is unknown, unimportant, irrelevant or a delicate subject to be avoided. Keep in mind that to an 11 year old, late 20's is ancient. With regard to Mrs. Skower's Magical Mess Remover; Mrs. Skower is at liberty to name her product anything she desires. Note that Madam Pince the librarian, is a professional and is older and is certainly in an authoritative position that demands respect, but at the same time is not a teacher; therefore, she is addressed as Madam. Madam Hooche is also not a teach, therefore not a professor, but she is an intructor, and an older woman, and in a position of authority, thereby deserving the respectful title of Madam. I would speculate that Madam Hooche's postion is roughly equivalent to a coach or physical education instructor. He expertise is not in any academic are, so she is not titled Professor. Madam Rosmerta; while I can't establish it as fact, I have always taken Rosmerta to be her first name. So we have a blended reference here. She is madam because she is a respected business woman, and the proprietor of the Three Broomsticks. Get on the wrong side of Madam Rosmerta and you are libel to find yourself thrown out, and there after drinking you ale with the unsavory rif-raf at the Hogs Head Inn. On the other hand, she is in the hospitality business, and therefore would want to cultivate a friendly congenial atmosphere, which is way she is referred to by her first name. In Madam Rosmerta's case, you show respect to the person tapping the ale for fear that disrespect will cause the tap to run dry, and at the same time, you maintain a friendly social attitude toward her. I do agree that encountering a woman in a professional capacity, one would automatically address them as madam until such time as told to do otherwise. Working in a professional capacity, would automatically indicate some due respect. In Madam Rosmerta's case, you use Madam for respect, and Rosmerta for social friendliness, but in other cases which are more formal and business-like, 'Madam' or 'Madam' and 'Last Name' would be the proper thing to do. So, in summary, the use of Madam shows respect, but does so without regard to or acknowledgement of marital status. In the case of spinsters and widows, it's probably best NOT to use any inferences to marriage, and in other cases, it just common courtesy. I also speculate that many women regardless of marital status, feel uncomfortable being addressed as 'Madam' because it implies a certain formality as well as age. You know you're getting old when you cross the threshold between 'Miss Jones' and 'Madam Jones'. Just a thought. bboy_mn From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Dec 12 20:19:16 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 20:19:16 -0000 Subject: The Headmaster's Hideouts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86994 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marci" wrote: > > digger: > > > > He was in his office all the time! With it magically sealed, who > was to > > know? So he had all his home comforts, food from the house elves, > etc. > > Thats my guess anyway. > Marci: > > That was my guess as well: HOGS - Headmaster Outsmarted Grotesque > She-devil > > HOGS KID > Headmaster's Office Greatly Sealed, Kept Inside Dumbldore. > > I don't think he ever left Hogwarts. Jen R: I like your acronyms, but the portraits tell Harry a different story when he arrives in the headmaster's office via Portkey. The "corpulent, red-nosed wizard" asks if Dumbledore will be returning soon, and another wizard says, "Oh, good...It has been very dull without him, very dull indeed." (Chap. 37, p. 821, US). Besides, staying in the office would be hiding out, and DD stated he's not going to do that. That doesn't *completely* crash the theory--DD could have come and gone from the office several times, and recently been away for awhile. But it suggests he had somewhere else to go, too. Where, though? He's certainly been in hiding to the mainstream WW, or the Daily Prophet would have reported sightings of him. Maybe he went off to see the Giants himself? Transfigured and did a little spying? Attempted to get the Goblins on-board, or wizards from other countries? Jen Reese From two4menone4you88 at aol.com Fri Dec 12 20:25:10 2003 From: two4menone4you88 at aol.com (two4menone4you88 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 15:25:10 EST Subject: THe nature of the Unforgivables(was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bang! You're ... Message-ID: <37.41ee3c43.2d0b7e26@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 86995 I think what Bellatrix meant is that for each curse you have to really want the thing it does. for example for the AK curse you would have to really want to kill someone. In that case Sirius and Lupin could have killed Peter since they really wanted to. And for Imperious you have to really want to control someone, not really want to control them for evil purposes. do you see the distinction? As for the cruciatus curse, well let's leave it up to the experts - Bella already fielded that one. *Yaira* [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mfisanich at earthlink.net Fri Dec 12 20:28:12 2003 From: mfisanich at earthlink.net (mfisanich) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 20:28:12 -0000 Subject: The Rare Cloaks (and vanishing spells) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86996 Melissa originally wrote: >... How does it [the cloak] know what to make invisible? How is it that the cloak is not invisible itself, but rather silvery, until it is put on a person? Does the cloak magically 'know' when to start making something invisible? Does it have to be in physical contact with a human? When the cloak is folded in Harry's trunk, does it render the objects beneath it invisible? the floor of the trunk? the floor under the trunk? How does this all work? > The Steve (bboy_mn) replied with: > My opinion is that the invisibility cloak has a visible side and an > invisible side very much like the cloak we see in the movie. When you fold it up to put it away, a wise person always folds with the visible side out. I agree, there are no definite answers to these questions. I like the notion that the cloak is only invisible through one side, though. This idea solves many of the logistical problems associated with invisibility cloaks. Also, it follows a technique I've noticed JKR uses a lot when she introduces magical objects and artifacts -- they often magically do something that is accomplished through technology in the Muggle world. (E.g., using Floo powder to talk through the fireplace = telephone or even video conferencing. The Marauder's Map = 'Onstar' or another on-demand GPS mapping service that you can receive in your car.) In this case, the IC is comparable to a two- way mirror. Steve went on to say: > There are a lot of unanswered and unanswerable question regarding the clock. If it only works when a human wraps it around himself, then > that would imply that you couldn't hide a solid object, like a dragon in a crate, unless you were also under the cloak. That doesn't seem very practical. Melissa again: I agree here, too. It doesn't seem logical for the cloak only to work when it's used on a person. That would greatly limit the power of this object which is described as very rare and powerful in the books. Steve again: > There is also the issue of magical intent. We know that magic can be > modified by intent. When Harry stuns Ron, Ron gracefully falls over, > Hermione revives him, and he gets back up and tries it again. But when Dumbledore stuns fake!Moody, he does it through a solid door which is destroy in the process of knocking Moody out. > We do see a limited amount of magic that is performed by intent alone;examples of wordless and/or wandless magic. Tom the innkeeper snapes > his fingers and the fireplace ingnites, etc.... > > So perhaps, the ability of the invisibility cloak is modified by the > magical intent of it's user to take from silvery and nearly invisible to fully invisible. > > I don't think we have enough to really make a definitive statement, > but the visible side/invisibile side seems like a very simple solution > to the mystery. > > Just a thought. > Finally, Melissa: I like the notion that magical intent would still have to apply to an object like the cloak. This makes me think, though, if magical intent is necessary, then why not just develop a spell that renders the spellcaster or another person invisible? Wouldn't the Vanishing Spell that the 5th years work so hard to learn be a suitable means of making yourself invisible (once you were able to move beyond vanishing snails and mice, that is!) Or does the Vanishing Spell make the vanished object cease to exist, instead of merely invisible? If it makes the vanished object cease to exist, I would think the spell's use on a fellow human being would be ranked up there with the Unforgivable Curses. Since we don't hear McGonagall tell the students anything about this, it leads me to believe that the snails, mice, and kittens are merely being made invisible. At any rate, it seems that JKR has at least thought about the fact that widespread use of the Vanishing spell in the WW could render many things illogical and unnecessary in the books (why the Disillusionment charm? Why would Sirius Black need to hide out -- he could just become invisible.) Perhaps this is why she makes a point of showing us how very, very difficult the Vanishing spell is. Maybe she's making it clear that not many wizards would have the talent necessary to vanish themselves. Now I've got to vanish from my computer and make dinner! Evanesco! Melissa From dmoorehpnc at yahoo.com Fri Dec 12 17:16:00 2003 From: dmoorehpnc at yahoo.com (dmoorehpnc) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 17:16:00 -0000 Subject: The Kacky Snorgle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86997 wrote: > I've been thinking about Luna Lovegood and her rather fanciful > theories about the world. I don't think that the crumple-horned > snorkack and friends are real, although it would be fun just to > see Hermione's reaction. Snip > I think it's intriguing that JKR mentioned Luna and Hermione > being opposites, because I think they each have something to > learn from the other. snip dmoorehpnc says: I think you may be on to something here. I like the idea of Luna and Hermionne being polar opposites. Rationality vs. Fantasy. Personally I think you need both. Anyway, any bets on which Luna's "theories" are most likely to pan out. I agree with you that Hermione needs to open up a bit to Luna's ideas. I wonder what Hermione felt about witches and wizards before she got her Hogwarts letter. I'd like to see a crumple-horned snorkack. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 12 22:59:29 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 22:59:29 -0000 Subject: The Rare Cloaks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86998 Diana L. asked: > If these cloaks can be bought, like at Diagon Alley, I wonder how > much they'd cost? And, of course, the off-repeated question, where > did James get the cloak he left to Harry? Will we ever find out? I can't answer your first question, but the second was answered in the October 19, 2000, AOL chat interview: Q: Where did James get his Invisibility Cloak? JKR: That was inherited from his own father -- a family heirloom! Here's the link: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/1000-aol-chat.htm To speculate a bit about the apparent rarity of the cloaks: Maybe the original maker and his family died out in VW1 or earlier and the secret of their making has been lost. It would be rather like Mr. Ollivander dying childless and leaving the British witches and wizards to find wands elsewhere in Europe or settle for used ones. (I hope he has at least one heir!) Obviously there's no canonical evidence for this guess, but the wizarding population does seem to have been drastically reduced in VW1. I also think Spy!Snape would own one if they were readily available and we wouldn't see so many people who aren't animagi or metamorphagi resorting to disguises. Carol From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Dec 12 23:31:33 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 23:31:33 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall Road and the Elixir of Life ( was The Diary (just where did V get In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 86999 > Carolyn: > > As the person who originally started this thread in message 86517, I am stunned at the things which have been dug up (quite literally) in the Riddle diary investigation. > > > With the outbreak of World War II ...... > > >......the authorities made every effort to get children out of > > London during the war, and certainly an official children's home of > > good standing, such as this orphanage, would have been one of the > > first to be cleared. I'm afraid Tom Riddle could not have been > living there after the outbreak of war in 1939. > > > Geoff: > Which raises the additional point of how Tom got hold of a diary from Vauxhall Road in 1942. > He might have been working there. Although children were moved out of London, many teens found their way back. There was a deperate labor shortage in the factories and orphans were routinely put to work at Tom's age in any case. Though I prefer to think of Tom skiving off his job and dealing in the black market. Pippin From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Sat Dec 13 00:12:47 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 00:12:47 -0000 Subject: The Rare Cloaks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87000 Diana L.wrote: > If the Malfoys do have one, it's not been > mentioned at all in any of the first four books, which I would find > odd. Derek replied: >>Remember, though, that the books are written from Harry's perspective. If the Malfoys *did* have an invisibility cloak, we would only know it if Harry knew it. And Harry would presumably have the same problem learning of the Malfoys' cloak that Draco has learning of Harry's: an invisibility cloak facilitates secrecy, and secrecy makes it harder to discover things like invisibility cloaks. It helps conceal itself. :-)<< Diana L. responds: Yes the books are written from Harry's perspective, however, Harry is extremely perceptive as evidenced by his casual observations about the people he meets and scenes he witnesses. If Draco did have an invisibility cloak, Draco would have used it at Hogwarts to do something by now, IMO. And Draco's actions would have strange consequences that would seem mysterious to everyone except to Harry who has his own invisibility cloak. Ron and Hermione would probably guess the truth as well because they know about Harry's IC. I could see Harry wondering how Draco could do some of the things he would do if he had an invisibility cloak, but it wouldn't take Harry long to figure out that Draco must have an invisibility cloak to do those things. In all five books so far, there have been no incidents, no matter how small, that would indicate any student other than Harry has an invisibility cloak at Hogwarts. Whether Lucius Malfoy has an invisibility cloak, as Derek notes above, we wouldn't know that for sure because the books are from Harry's perspective. However if Lucius did have an IC, why wouldn't he have used in the Prophecy room in OoP? Wouldn't one DE hidden in an invisibility cloak be a better way to steal the prophecy from Harry than a whole group of DEs, all but one of whom were captured by the Order and turned over to the Minister of Magic? Of course the logic behind the DEs actions and Voldemorts plans in OoP are of much discussion right now in another thread, but if Lucius does have an invisibility cloak, he doesn't seem to use it at all or at least not in a way that pertains to the events in any of the books. Diana L. wrote: > If these cloaks can be bought, like at Diagon Alley, I wonder how > much they'd cost? >Derek replied: Maybe they're available in Knockturn Alley, though. There does seem to be something a bit Dark Magicky about a device whose main purpose is to allow the wearer to be places he's not supposed to be and do things he's not supposed to do... Diana L. responds: I could see them being a black market, back-room item in Knockturn Alley. A wizard would probably have to make inquiries with the right people to acquire an IC at an extraordinary price. The aurors are probably allowed cloaks due to the nature of their work. > Diana L. wrote: > At this point, we don't know for sure if Draco knows or suspects that Harry has an invisibility cloak, but I would bet that the > minute Draco finds out Harry has an invisibility cloak he'll tell > his dad and demand one of his own. >>Tom replied: Draco *knows* that Harry has an invisibility cloak. In PoA at the Shrieking Shack he sees Harry's head and runs to tell Snape. Don't have the book in front of me to give Chapter and quote, but I'd say that Draco could put two and two together and figure out that it must have been an invisibility cloak.< Diana L. (me) responds: I had forgotten about Harry's head appearing in front of Draco in PoA. LOL Draco's reaction to Harry's head appearing out of thin air was one of fear, not a calculated response reasoning that Harry must have an invisibility cloak otherwise Draco would certainly have called Harry on the carpet for it right then, IMO. I'm sure Draco was probably quite ticked later IF he put together the events at the Shrieking Shack and the existence of invisibility cloaks, but I don't see evidence that he did. Snape doesn't strike me as a person who lets things slip accidentally, even to Draco. If Snape did slip the idea of an invisibility cloak to Draco (when Draco told him about Harry's head the Shrieking Shack) we've seen no evidence so far that Draco figured out, with or without a hint from Snape, that Harry has an invisibility cloak. Draco loves to taunt Harry and would love nothing more than to flaunt his knowledge of Harry's IC in front of Harry. I could see veiled threats and hints about it every time they meet if Draco knew or even suspected Harry had an IC. Unless JKR is purposely NOT revealing Draco's knowledge of Harry's IC, then why wouldn't Draco say anything, not even a comment? C'mon, it would drive Draco crazy! If he knew, Draco would certainly have told Umbridge about it in OoP, because another educational decree would have been issued immediately so Umbridge could confiscate it much like she did Harry's firebolt. For these reasons, I think Draco does not know or suspect Harry has an invisibility cloak. Snape didn't know at the time Draco came to him in PoA that Harry had an invisibility cloak, so he might even have thought Harry had cast a disillusionment charm or other such spell on himself that was failing, thus making just his head appear. And Snape could have let this idea slip to Draco ? and Draco would think Snape would be correct and wouldn't advance to "Harry must have an invisibility cloak". Remember, Snape had no reason to suspect James had an IC cloak he had left to Harry, as far as we know (which isn't much). Snape knows about the invisibility cloak later in PoA because he actually finds the cloak by the Whomping Willow and uses it. Snape does mention it in front of Filch and Barty!Moody when Harry's stuck in the stairs in GoF, which I found interesting as Filch hasn't acted on this new-found knowledge, yet. It's entirely possible that Snape may have gone to Dumbledore at the end of PoA or before GoF about Harry having an IC cloak and Dumbledore told Snape to leave it alone. And Moody has had THREE cloaks that we know of. The "good" cloak was captured with Podmore outside the DoM. (OoP) The 'inferior' cloak was still being used by the order. (OoP) And the third cloak was buried over the transfigured dead body of Barty Crouch Sr. in the forest outside Hogwarts. (GoF) I suppose it's possible that the real Moody or Dumbledore could have retrieved the IC over Crouch Sr.'s body, but it is unlikely. Barty Crouch Jr. has his soul sucked out not long after confessing all to Dumbledore and wouldn't have been in any condition to direct them to where to dig for Barty Sr.'s body and the cloak. Since Dumbledore was concerned about Harry at the time, I don't think even the idea of retrieving the cloak would have mattered to Dumbledore at all. Moody is portrayed as extremely paranoid, so having three IC cloaks does strike me as someone who is overly cautious by collecting three very rare and expensive items. Diana L. From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Sat Dec 13 00:23:06 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 00:23:06 -0000 Subject: The Rare Cloaks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87001 wrote: > Diana L. asked: > > If these cloaks can be bought, like at Diagon Alley, I > wonder how > > much they'd cost? And, of course, the off-repeated question, where > > did James get the cloak he left to Harry? Will we ever find out? > Carol replied: > I can't answer your first question, but the second was answered in the > October 19, 2000, AOL chat interview: > > Q: Where did James get his Invisibility Cloak? > > JKR: That was inherited from his own father -- a family heirloom! > > Here's the link: > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/1000- aol-chat.htm > > To speculate a bit about the apparent rarity of the cloaks: Maybe the > original maker and his family died out in VW1 or earlier and the > secret of their making has been lost. It would be rather like Mr. > Ollivander dying childless and leaving the British witches and wizards > to find wands elsewhere in Europe or settle for used ones. (I hope he > has at least one heir!) Obviously there's no canonical evidence for > this guess, but the wizarding population does seem to have been > drastically reduced in VW1. I also think Spy!Snape would own one if > they were readily available and we wouldn't see so many people who > aren't animagi or metamorphagi resorting to disguises. Diana L. responds: That's an interesting answer from JKR. I had not heard that interview, so that's new info for me! :) I like your theory that the maker(s) of these cloaks died out and no one has taken over the practice. It would make Harry even more special for having one. And Moody having three would be extraordinary. I would guess that Moody took some or all of those cloaks from the dark wizards he caught when Voldemort rose the first time. After all, if Voldemort's followers are all pure-blood wizards, those long lines of wizarding families would have all kinds of interesting heirlooms to pass down to future generations, such as invisibility cloaks. And the rampant speculation as to a pure-blood wizard family that James was part of grows more likely if one of James's inheirited items was an IC! Like other posters have written, if James was part of pure-blood wizard family, and all pure-blood families are related, then James's (and Harry's) connections to other families must exist and have yet to be revealed. Diana L. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 13 01:13:37 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 01:13:37 -0000 Subject: Magical Quills (Was: Teachers' workload) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87002 Beverly wrote: And maybe all the teachers have magical > quills to keep up with all the grading and writing they have to do. > Does Snape's quill have a thing against Harry's papers? After all, > in OotP Harry gets a "D for Dreadful" mark on his paper for Snape. Carol: Having been a teacher myself, I'd like to think that the Hogwarts teachers have magical quills (especially if they're looking at anything beyond the content and complexity of the answer--clarity of expression, for example--though I doubt that they are), but I see no evidence of it. Snape looks at a paper assigned by Lupin that received eight points and states, "I wouldn't have given it three" (in PoA somewhere, quoted from memory). Either his magic quill marks the paper exactly as he would have done, not just the mark/grade but the comments, and he somehow knows what each paper received, or he goes through the papers very quickly and marks only the points or the grade received without comments. Otherwise, there's no way that he could keep up with the workload *and* know how well each student is doing. One thing that does help, though, is that he and the other teachers don't teach every class every day. Most of them appear to meet twice a week. Let's say that Mondays through Thursdays are divided among his first through fifth year students and Fridays are devoted to his sixth and seventh year NEWT classes. If the Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs have double Potions like the Gryffindors and Slytherins, that would be about five classes per day (except Fridays) and about forty to sixty papers to mark every night (assuming twenty students per double class). If I were Snape, I'd have to brew myself a potion to keep me awake and mentally alert! And the grades also have to be recorded so they can be averaged at end of term--definitely a job for a magical quill if he has one, but again, I see no indication that he does. He and McGonagall, who is twice his age, seem to have prodigious energy, so maybe they can manage to mark all that homework without stay-awake potions or magical quills--but only with a school population of 280 rather than 1,000 students. Rowling as a former teacher would know the limitations for a Muggle teacher. I don't think they'd be all that different for a Witch or Wizard. Even Snape and McGonagall would have their limits. Maybe overwork is part of the reason that Snape is so hard on his students! :-) Carol From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 13 01:28:01 2003 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 01:28:01 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Headmaster's Hideouts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FDA6B21.5000701@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87003 > Marci: > > > > That was my guess as well: HOGS - Headmaster Outsmarted Grotesque > > She-devil > > > > HOGS KID > > Headmaster's Office Greatly Sealed, Kept Inside Dumbldore. > > > > I don't think he ever left Hogwarts. > > > Jen R: I like your acronyms, but the portraits tell Harry a > different story when he arrives in the headmaster's office via > Portkey. The "corpulent, red-nosed wizard" asks if Dumbledore will > be returning soon, and another wizard says, "Oh, good...It has been > very dull without him, very dull indeed." (Chap. 37, p. 821, US). > Besides, staying in the office would be hiding out, and DD stated > he's not going to do that. > > That doesn't *completely* crash the theory--DD could have come and > gone from the office several times, and recently been away for > awhile. But it suggests he had somewhere else to go, too. > > Where, though? He's certainly been in hiding to the mainstream WW, > or the Daily Prophet would have reported sightings of him. Maybe he > went off to see the Giants himself? Transfigured and did a little > spying? Attempted to get the Goblins on-board, or wizards from other > countries? > > Jen Reese Digger: You are right Jen. DD can't have been in his office. I'd forgotton about the portraits missing his company. So here is my next theory (hope its not so easily trashed as my last) Dumbledore is a metamorphmagus. He stayed on at Hogwarts under various disguises. After all, there is nothing as good as being hidden while in full view! That could also be how he has kept such a close watch on Harry all this time. > From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 13 01:55:42 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 01:55:42 -0000 Subject: The Rare Cloaks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87004 > > If these cloaks can be bought, like at Diagon Alley, I wonder how > Diana L. wrote: > > Snape doesn't strike me as a person who lets things slip > accidentally, even to Draco. If Snape did slip the idea of an > invisibility cloak to Draco (when Draco told him about Harry's head > the Shrieking Shack) we've seen no evidence so far that Draco > figured out, with or without a hint from Snape, that Harry has an > invisibility cloak. > Carol: I agree completely that Snape would not let information slip, especially information concerning Harry, but I think "even to Draco" should be changed to "especially *not* to Draco." If Snape is really on the side of the Order and Dumbledore, and I'm sure that he is, the last thing he would do is let blabbermouth Draco know about an invisibility cloak that could prove crucial to Harry at some later time. Snape would know that Draco would inform both his Slytherin friends and his father and that ultimately Voldemort, too, would learn about it. (Even if Lucius is disloyal to Voldemort, other Slytherin students also have DE fathers who would inform LV of the invisibility cloak if they knew about it.) So whatever Snape thought about the floating head in Hogsmeade (and I imagine he did suspect an invisibility cloak), it's unlikely in the extreme that he would risk dropping any hint of those suspicions to Draco. BTW, I think his apparent favoritism toward Draco is a pretence he's been using to maintain his connection with Lucius Malfoy, his conduit for spying on the Death Eaters. It will be interesting to see how the relationship with Draco will evolve now that Lucius is in prison. Things could get scary if Draco starts to suspect Snape of having any connection with the Order or his father's arrest. Carol From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Dec 12 22:34:15 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 22:34:15 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, brooms and DEs In-Reply-To: <3FD9B56A.4309.CBBFBB@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87005 Geoff: > > This reminds me of something that has really annoyed me whenever I > > read it. > > > > Umbridge told Harry and Co that they were banned from playing > > Quidditch ever again. That, of course, could only apply to Hogwarts. > > Presumably what she meant was ever again at the school. > > > > But my main irritation is the woman's arrogance in confiscating the > > brooms. Harry's broom is a valuable possession and is his own > > personal property; she has no right to remove it. Shaun: > I don't know.. I had my own personal valuable property confiscated while I was at > school, on a couple of occasions. As far as I was concerned, the teacher had absolutely every > right to confiscate it, and I don't find it at all surprising that Harry would have a > similar attitude. > > This is contingent on the understanding that you would *eventually* > get it back - Geoff: Yes. Precisely. And I don't believe that that is Umbridge's intention, since she appears to be in a "Get Potter and Dumbledore" mood. I can remember occasions when I was in my grammar school when things would get taken away. However, it was usually when the object had been the cause of the confrontation. If a boy (I went to a single sex grammar school) was caught with a catapult, reading "Lady Chatterley's Lover" behind the Science block or something similar, then that object might be taken away. If need be, the parents would be informed. Often the offending item would be returned after a few days. I did the same when I was teaching and removed items from pupils. I would usually give them back at the end of the day with an admonition "If I see it again, it goes away until the end of term". Umbridge is way over the top. She has already sanctioned Harry by baning him from Quidditch. This is just to twist the knife. The Firebolt was noting to do with the fight. Suppose a professional football player is banned for a couple of months for bad play of some sort. He doesn't have to hand over any footballs he owns; he isn't told he can't kick a ball around in his garden. Harry owns a valuable, rare Firebolt. He has every right to use it to fly around on for fun and relaxation; he's not going to get to play Quidditch anyway because he's banned. While on the subject of DJU, I consider JKR's portrayal of her gives us a picture of evil woman who, in literary terms, is equally to be loathed as Dickens' Wackford Squeers. There has been speculation in the past as to whether the dear lady is actually a closet Death Eater. My thoughts move along the lines that when you get diametrically polarised ultra-extremists, you in fact get an almost identical result. If you look at the way in which Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia functioned, although they were political opposites, the methods - secret police, executions, suppression of opposition, disregard of legal trials etc. appeared to be virtually identical. Apply the same to the Wizarding Worlda and you see on one hand the Death Eaters and on the other fanatics like Umbridge and Crouch Senior and the end result appears to be that they are clones of each other. Dolores Umbridge is a scheming bully who likes to be cock of the walk in her little world. Let's hope that she doesn't claw her way back up in the next book or so... Geoff From derek at rhinobunny.com Fri Dec 12 23:11:54 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 15:11:54 -0800 Subject: THe nature of the Unforgivables In-Reply-To: <37.41ee3c43.2d0b7e26@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031212145134.01f91bd0@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87006 two4menone4you88 at aol.com wrote: >I think what Bellatrix meant is that for each curse you have to really want >the thing it does. for example for the AK curse you would have to really want >to kill someone. In that case Sirius and Lupin could have killed Peter since >they really wanted to. Derek: At risk of repeating myself from an earlier post, I think it's more than that. I think you have to take actual pleasure in it, not just have a genuine wish to see it happen. I think that's why use of them is "Unforgiveable." It's not saying anything about the magic itself, or even about the target of the magic. It's saying something about the *user* of the magic. If you use AK to kill someone, no matter how richly that someone may deserve it, you've revealed yourself as one who can revel in some twisted joy at snuffing out another's life force. *That's* what's Unforgiveable. I suspect that if we learn more about these curses and the punishments associated with them, we'll find that it's not the *attempt* at casting them that lands one in Azkaban... it's *successfully* casting one that does it. Only if you can cast one successfully have you revealed yourself as a twisted, evil person. So I actually don't believe Sirius and Remus could have used AK on Peter, no matter how angry they were with him, and no matter how just that anger was. I don't think either of them would actually find joy in causing another's death. They may want to see that death accomplished in the interests of justice, but they're not the kind of people who get glee from killing another. Don't get me wrong; they *would* have killed him had Harry not intervened. But I fully believe they would have had to do so by means other than AK. - Derek From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sat Dec 13 01:59:28 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 12:59:28 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vauxhall Road and the Elixir of Life ( was The Diary (just where did V get In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FDB0D30.13528.43CAD0@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 87007 On 11 Dec 2003 at 23:26, a_reader2003 wrote: > This note supports one of my original contentions (set out in post > 86637), that the authorities made every effort to get children out of > London during the war, and certainly an official children's home of > good standing, such as this orphanage, would have been one of the > first to be cleared. I'm afraid Tom Riddle could not have been living > there after the outbreak of war in 1939. Just a note on this - while a lot of children were evacuated from London in Septemer 1939, most were not kept out of London for the entire war. Most had returned home by May 1940 (when a second much smaller evacuation was begun - actually technically speaking it was the third - there had also been a small evacuation in 1938 at the time of the Munich crisis). In 1942, most children who'd been evacuated were well and truly back in London - now personally, I would think orphans would be unlikely to have been brought back (the primary reason for bringing back evacuated children were because their families missed them) but the evacuation was really not as total nor as long lasting as some people might think. Also bear in mind that Tom Riddle was a Hogwarts student and that may have meant he had to go to London. He certainly may have had to visit Diagon Alley - he may have had to go to King's Cross to get to school - and as it seems fairly unlikely the Muggle orphanage authorities knew too much about his educational needs (I would assume they worked on the assumption he had a scholarship to a boarding school of some sort) presumably he was able to make his wizarding related trips without Muggle interference - and maybe make side trips into other parts of London - if I came back to London from evacuation in World War II, I could certainly believe I'd have wanted to see what had happened to the area I knew best - hey for all we know, he might have been a cricket fan - I can certainly see someone who was interested in cricket heading into the Kennington area just to see the Oval! Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From carmenharms at yahoo.com Sat Dec 13 02:41:55 2003 From: carmenharms at yahoo.com (snazzzybird) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 02:41:55 -0000 Subject: The Rare Cloaks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87008 --- "Matt" wrote: > Diana: > >>> At this point, we don't know for sure if Draco > >>> knows or suspects that Harry has an invisibility > >>> cloak, > > Tom: > >> Draco *knows* that Harry has an invisibility cloak. > >> In PoA at the Shreaking Shack he sees Harry's head > >> and runs to tell Snape. > > Beverly: > > We then find that Snape knows that Harry has an > > Invisibility Cloak because of what Snape says to Moody > > in GoF.... > > > > Matt: > Doesn't Snape also see the cloak himself in PoA? I thought that he > was wearing it when he showed up at the Shrieking Shack. snazzzybird: Yes, Snape is wearing it when he comes to the Shrieking Shack, and he knows that it belongs to Harry. In the first paragraph of Chapter 19, "The Servant of Lord Voldemort", we read: "I found this at the base of the Whomping Willow," said Snape, throwing the cloak aside, careful to keep his wand pointing directly at Lupin's chest. "Very useful, Potter, I thank you..." Snape had been to Lupin's office, saw that he hadn't drunk his wolfsbane potion, then noticed the Marauder's Map on his desk. He tells Lupin, "I saw you running along this passageway and out of sight." He expected to find Sirius Black there, but not the Trio. However, when he did find them there, he immediately assumed the cloak he'd found belonged to Harry. Was Draco's description of the disembodied head enough information that he'd managed to figure out the truth? Or did he already know that James Potter had owned such a cloak? --snazzzybird, who can think of many, many uses for such a garment. From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Sat Dec 13 04:31:47 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 04:31:47 -0000 Subject: Potters as their own Secret Keepers? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87009 Ok, it has just occurred to me...if Dumbledore was able to be the Secret Keeper for the Order and easily come and go about Grimmauld Place, then why couldn't either Lily or James have been the Secret Keeper for when they went into hiding? The whole story before OotP came out with Peter in hiding after he became SK, the bluff between Sirius and Peter to thrown someone off and the concept of locking a 'secret inside a single, living soul' had me believing that anyone living in a location kept secret under this charm would have to remain in this location and that the Secret Keeper would not be able to tell any other single person the secret of the charm, without breaking the charm. After reading OotP, this obviously isn't true. True, it is an 'immensely complex spell' but still, you would think it would be common to use then if it allows people to move in and out of the location freely and allows for anyone whom the secret keeper tells to be able to find the location. It sounds excellent for warding wizarding homes and any place in general that one would only want those that they deem trustworthy to know about and find. So, again, my question is this--why did Lily or James not just be their own Secret Keeper? Also-- what happens if a Secret Keeper is killed? Ooh--since the secret is locking within the *soul*, what happens if a Dementor kisses that person and sucks out their soul? Okay, enough for tonight... Arya From beelissa at nycap.rr.com Sat Dec 13 05:00:51 2003 From: beelissa at nycap.rr.com (Melissa Worcester) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 00:00:51 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Kacky Snorgle References: Message-ID: <004a01c3c136$14b88e60$efd54142@CPQ21816182602> No: HPFGUIDX 87010 >dmoorehpnc says: > Anyway, any bets on which Luna's "theories" are most likely to pan out. Being a big Luna fan, I have thought about this quite a bit. Luna is interrupted twice. First, in the Hog's Head, she is talking about Fudge's supposed army of Heliopaths. Someone, Neville I think, asks about this and Hermione immediately starts to challenge the idea that Heliopaths exist. I believe Luna is about to give evidence, which would obviously further annoy Hermione and which is not why all of these people have gathered in the Hog's Head to begin with, when Ginny interrupts Luna's explanation with her "Hem hem" imitation of Umbridge. I know it's been stated that often interruptions are significant. I know I feel we are often about to learn something that I'd want to know if it wasn't for the interruption. The second time Luna is interrupted is in the Dept. of Mysteries, when they are discussing what might be behind the door they can't get open. Luna has an idea what might be behind it, but she is not able to even begin to say what. I don't remember who interrupts her that time, just that I felt both of these might be significant, that there might be more we could learn from Luna about these topics. Melissa, emerging from lurkdome [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From beelissa at nycap.rr.com Sat Dec 13 05:10:51 2003 From: beelissa at nycap.rr.com (Melissa Worcester) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 00:10:51 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bill's Visit, other Bill questions References: Message-ID: <005001c3c137$7a29aee0$efd54142@CPQ21816182602> No: HPFGUIDX 87011 I find this whole question of Bill and Charlie's ages highly interesting. I sure hope we learn the truth. As I've been reading this thread, I keep coming back to a couple of ideas: It makes sense that the family would look something like this: Bill is the oldest, 2-3 years older than Charlie, then a gap of 1-3 years, Percy, two years older than the twins who are two years older than Ron who is a year older than Ginny. That's usually how families work. It's obvious that ISN'T the case here, because of the haven't-won-in-seven-years comment. So, what happened to make a larger gap? I'm thinking the gap is going to be important in one or both of the last 2 books, or why else would it be there? It seems that each member of the Weasley family has a role to play. Bill and Charlie have been on the fringes mostly. Their roles so far could have been filled with any number of non-Weasley characters, when you come right down to it. The fact that they exist and that they are significantly older than we expect leads me to believe they're there and they're the age they are for a reason we've yet to learn. It's also possible that JKR just got her numbers mixed up and she's laughing at all of us trying to pinpoint all of this with such obsessive attention to detail. I've really enjoyed the posts about this, I've learned a lot. Thanks! Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bookworm5252 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 12 14:19:15 2003 From: bookworm5252 at yahoo.com (bookworm5252) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:19:15 -0000 Subject: Traitors Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87012 I read here that maybe Bill is a would-be traitor. I felt quite desmayed about that possibility and I hope it won't prove true. As for Percy, and considering his attitudes in Phoenix, he might just as well be, but I also read in the HP Lexicon that he is probably working undecover for the Order and that sounds much more interesting and "twisty". I don't see a reason for the compulsory existence of a traitor in the Weasley family! Also and despite being one of the translators of HP books into portuguese I feel crushed by the depth of knowledge most people here show in regard to the tiniest details. From ellydan at yahoo.com Fri Dec 12 22:54:30 2003 From: ellydan at yahoo.com (Melete-BlueAsrai) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:54:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: polyjuice potion In-Reply-To: <1071223705.6693.32986.m2@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20031212225430.88619.qmail@web40801.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87013 Imo, the person who takes Goyle!Harry's hair and uses it in Polyjuice Potion will turn into Goyle. My reason for this is because Harry has literally turned into Goyle. The body that Harry turned into has Goyle's DNA. If you take a hair for Goyle!Harry, it will have Goyle's DNA. Now that I've started thinking about it, what about Goyle! Harry's brain? I mean, Harry still thinks with his own mind - even when he's inside the replicated body of Goyle. But is he using Goyle's replicated brain or his own? Maybe I should put it this way: did Harry's spirit enter Goyle's brain, or did their brains switch completely? Hmm, maybe I'm thinking a little too hard. "Dysis" Hmm an intriguing question and debate. I have to feel after forcing myself to read Aristotle's On The Soul that we need to differentiate between the mind and the brain.. I mean the soul versus the physical DNA structured brain. Are they necessarily tied to one another? Thinking Freaky Friday (shudders a bit at this reference) bodies may change in appearance but the soul remains the same. A friend just suggested Inuyasha for anyone familiar with the anime..of his blood suppression with his youkai side. Perhaps the spell works as a suppression..not a total DNA change. anyway my first little contribution Asrai __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat Dec 13 01:19:32 2003 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 01:19:32 -0000 Subject: Magical Quills (Was: Teachers' workload) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87014 > > Booby J wrote: > > > The Hogwarts teachers are overworked! > > Then Neri wrote: > > Regarding checking homework assignments, however, I'd be very > > surprised if a competent witch such as Prof. McGonagal does not > have > > a Homework Checking Quill or something of that sort. > > Beverly adds: > > Ooooooh, that does make sense. There are two quills that I can > remember that do magical things. The first is Rita Skeeters Quick > Quotes Quill and then Umbridge's evil, foul, revolting quill that > makes a person inflict damage on him/herself when writing with it. Neri adds more magic quills in the WW (thanks to the very real magic of computerized search). In SS/PS: The final exams are conducted with quills bewitched with an Anti- Cheating spell (I could use them too in my own teaching career). In PoA: Not magical, but Honeydukes sell sugar quills, which you can suck in class and just look like you're thinking what to write next (I wonder if these were already patented in the RW?) OotP: An anonymous auror in aurors headquarters in the MoM dictates a report to his quill. DD uses what appears to be one of Fawkes' scarlet body-feathers as a quill (thanks the Lexicon). It is open to speculation what powers does it have, especially remembering that that Fawkes' tail features are used in Harry's and LV's wands. Auto-Answer Quills are banned from the OWL examination (what happened to the Anti-Cheating Quills?). (Beverly again): > I also believe that Hermione put a spell on her quill when she had > everyone sign the list at the beginning of the DA meetings in OotP. I > say this because right after the meeting in the Hogshead, she goes > into a shop to buy another quill. Since the quill she just used to > have everyone sign the list had a "sneak" jinx put on it, she needed > a new one for everyday work. Neri again: That's a brilliant idea, although I believe Hermione specifically mentioned she jinxed the parchment, but why kill interesting ideas with boring canon? Beverly also mentioned: > > Oh, and there is the quill that JKR said puts down the name of every > magical child who will get a letter from Hogwarts. Maybe that's the > Headmasters magical quill?? And maybe all the teachers have magical > quills to keep up with all the grading and writing they have to do. > Does Snape's quill have a thing against Harry's papers? After all, > in OotP Harry gets a "D for Dreadful" mark on his paper for Snape. Neri adds: I imagine magic quills reflect some of their owner's personality as well as their knowledge. In addition, it seems the most difficult part with inventing a new kind of magic quill is to get all the words of the name (or at least two out of three) to start with the same letter. This I leave to people with better english than mine. Neri From derek at rhinobunny.com Sat Dec 13 01:43:11 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 17:43:11 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Headmaster's Hideouts In-Reply-To: <3FDA6B21.5000701@ntlworld.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031212174037.025ae4c0@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87015 digger wrote: >So here is my next theory (hope its >not so easily trashed as my last) Dumbledore is a metamorphmagus. He >stayed on at Hogwarts under various disguises. After all, there is >nothing as good as being hidden while in full view! That could also be >how he has kept such a close watch on Harry all this time. Derek: This might also be what he meant when he told Harry in SS/PS that he didn't need an invisibility cloak to be invisible. He might not have meant literally invisible, so much as just not noticed... - Derek From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat Dec 13 05:34:10 2003 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 05:34:10 -0000 Subject: Magical Quills (Was: Teachers' workload) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87016 > Carol: One thing that does help, though, is that he and the other teachers > don't teach every class every day. Most of them appear to meet twice a > week. Let's say that Mondays through Thursdays are divided among his > first through fifth year students and Fridays are devoted to his sixth > and seventh year NEWT classes. If the Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs have > double Potions like the Gryffindors and Slytherins, that would be > about five classes per day (except Fridays) and about forty to sixty > papers to mark every night (assuming twenty students per double > class). If I were Snape, I'd have to brew myself a potion to keep me > awake and mentally alert! Now Neri (back to the too-many-teaching-hours problem): I would add that I can remember offhand at least three cases in OotP when Harry finds McGonagal out of class during normal teaching hours: once in her office when he is sent with a note from Umbridge (during the first DADA lesson), once in the teachers room when he skives out of History of Magic in order to take wounded Hedwig to Prof. Grubbly- Plank, and a third time during career advice. So she doesn't seem to strain herself with too many classes. And what about Umbridge herself, who also seems to teach each house/year separately (no double classes) yet she still has time to inquisit Trelawney's and Hagrid's lessons, police the fireplace network, read the students' mail and scheme against DD. Well, I guess with her teaching style she could just leave her students alone in the class to read the stupid textbook, guarded by a two-way mirror or some other magical inspecting device. Perhaps she was always present only in Harry's classes, in hope to provoke him yet again. But I can't imagine McGonagal behaving like this. Unless someone manages to give a reasonable explanation, I'm inclined to believe that JKR simply didn't think this through, which is perfectly fine by me. I never thought she has to get everything in the WW exactly right and consistent. This is our job. Neri From groups at e-dennis.net Sat Dec 13 05:39:11 2003 From: groups at e-dennis.net (Dennis) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 00:39:11 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Photographs in the WW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87017 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > I have a query about photographs in the WW. > > As we all know they move. But do they reflect the current image of > the witch or wizard?? Or the image of the Witch/Wizard at the time > the photo was taken? > > ...edited... > > Also think of the implications for Metamorphmaguses.? Do their photos > change as they do? > > I was curious if anyone else had any thoughts on this. > > Mandy Dennis: Perhaps photos *can* be bewitched to do this, but not all do. Sirius' picture in Harry's wedding photo showed him young and handsome, which didn't at all reflect what Azkaban had done to him. And people who die don't seem to keel over in the portraits either, which I think would happen if there was a "current status" clause on photographs. --- Later, bboy_mn wrote: > In addition, I have this theory that photos are like miniature stage > plays. The subjects in the photo are like actors in that they play out > the context in which the photo is taken and in some case, the context > in which the photo is used. > Dennis again: I like that theory particularly, as it's the best fit of the evidence we have I've heard. I would expand it to say that magical (painted) portraits seem to be different in ways, and achieve a consciousness that simple photographs do not. Of course, we'll probably hear all about it before the end of book 7. Sounds like complicated, NEWT-level magic to me. Hope it's Snape that covers it in Potions class... ------------- Dennis From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Sat Dec 13 07:16:31 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 07:16:31 -0000 Subject: Use of Madam (was Re: Hogwarts Teachers). In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87018 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: > Ginger speculates: > > I may be totally wrong and failing in the memory department, in > which case I beg the forgiveness of those assembled, but does the > WW use Mrs? > > It seems to me, and I have racked my memory, that the only time we > hear Mrs is when it is used by Harry or the narrator. Harry was > raised as a Muggle, and I think the narrator is a Muggle (or is at > least writing for them), so the use of Mrs would be cultural. > > We hear of Mrs Weasley, Black, and Figg from Harry's and the > narrator's POV, but the WW uses their given names or "mad old bat" > or another appropriate appelation. To the best of my memory, > wizards and witches always use Madam unless the term Professor > supercedes. > Hermione also says "Mrs. Weasley", but, agin, she wasn't raised a witch. Mrs Black is *only* called Mrs Black by the narrator. Otherwise, she's "my mother" & "that horrible old hag". Mrs Figg is, again, Harry & the narrator, as well as Petunia. > Can anyone think of an example where a witch is referred to as Mrs > by anyone who was raised in the WW? This has had me wondering for > some time. I try to remember it on rereads, but get distracted by the > story :) > The Healer in St. Mungos calls Nevilles granmother "Mrs Longbottom", but we don't know her heritage... --Arcum From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Dec 13 07:37:01 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 07:37:01 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall Road and the Elixir of Life ( was The Diary (just where did V get In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87019 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: Geoff: > > Which raises the additional point of how Tom got hold of a > diary from Vauxhall Road in 1942. Pippin: > He might have been working there. Although children were > moved out of London, many teens found their way back. There > was a deperate labor shortage in the factories and orphans > were routinely put to work at Tom's age in any case. Though I > prefer to think of Tom skiving off his job and dealing in the black > market. Geoff: I think it unlikely in '42. He was at Hogwarts. He couldn't have had a weekend job during term time and I can't wee the orphanage letting him out to that sort of set up during the holidays. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Dec 13 07:40:25 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (bboy_mn) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 07:40:25 -0000 Subject: The Rare Cloaks (and vanishing spells) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87020 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mfisanich" wrote: > Finally, Melissa: > > ... This makes me think, ..., then why not just develop a spell > that renders the spellcaster or another person invisible? > bboy_mn: There is indeed such a charm; Fred and George use an invisibility charm on their 'joke' hats (Headless Hats). --- Quote - OoP UK Hb pg 477 --- ... Fred and George were demonstrating their latest bit of joke shop merchandise. 'Headless Hats!' shouted George, as Fred waved a pointed hat decorated with a fluffy pink feather at the watching students. .... 'How do those hats work, then?' said Hermione, distracted from her homework and watchng Fred and George closely. 'I mean, obviously it's some kind of Invisibility Spell, but it's rather clever to have extended the field of invisibility beyond the boundaries of the charmed object ... I'd imagine the charm wouldn't have a very long life thought.' --- end quote --- We see the existance of the Invisibility Spell but we also see it's flaw or shortcoming, it doesn't last very long, and as we see from Hermione's comment, having the invisibility field extend beyond the charmed object is quite an unusual accomplishment. > Melissa continues: > Wouldn't the Vanishing Spell ... be a suitable means of making > yourself invisible ...? Or does the Vanishing Spell make the > vanished object cease to exist, instead of merely > invisible? > > ...edited... (why the Disillusionment charm? ....) ... > > Now I've got to vanish from my computer and make dinner! Evanesco! > > Melissa bboy_mn: To my way of thinking, the Vanishing Spell is the garbage can/bin of the wizard world, you use the Vanishing Spell to get rid of vomit or the mess your dog left on the floor. When things are vanished, my impression is, that they cease to have physical substance which does not necessarily mean they cease to exists. It could be that we are looking at a matter/energy conversion, much like the Star Trek Transporters. The object is converted into the universal stream of energy that premeates the universe. I also suspect that a Vanishing Charm can be reverse, and while you might want to bet your cat on a vanishing reversal, I would be reluctant to bet my life or the life of a friend on it. Also, consider Snape and Hermione vanishing Harry's potion in Potions Class, if the potion was merely invisible, Harry could have still filled a vial with it and given it to Snape for grading. Given the implied intent and everyone's reactions, I have to believe the the Vanishing Spell truly makes the potions vanish. As far as the Disillusionment Charm, which I always thought should have been called the Illusionment Charm since 'disillusion' means to be FREE of illusion, doesn't make people invisible, it's more a a camouflage or Chamaeleon charm, they still have physical form and are visible, but they take on the color and texture of their background. I would think that a 'Disillusioned' wizard could potentially, in a limited way, hide himself from people if they didn't look too closely, but I suspect the minute he began to move, he would give himself away. However, at a distance, while flying through the sky on a broom, the camouflage would be enough to prevent most muggles from detecting a wizard. It would be very effective in the daytime, and totally effective at night. Even if the muggle did detect some movement in the sky, when they took a second look, the flying wizard would no longer be in that location. It's also possible, I speculate, to combine the Disillusionment Charm with some other type of Apathy Spell, that would make the sight of a camouflaged wizard moving through the sky so incredibly boring that the muggles wouldn't bother with a second look. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Dec 13 07:44:59 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 07:44:59 -0000 Subject: The Rare Cloaks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87021 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Diana" wrote: Diana: > And Moody has had THREE cloaks that we know of. The "good" cloak > was captured with Podmore outside the DoM. (OoP) The 'inferior' > cloak was still being used by the order. (OoP) And the third cloak > was buried over the transfigured dead body of Barty Crouch Sr. in > the forest outside Hogwarts. (GoF) Geoff: I think there is a misunderstanding or a misreading of GOF here. "'When everyone was gone, I transfigured my father's body. He became a bone.... I buried it, while wearing the Invisibility Cloak, in the freshly dug earth in front of Hagrid's cabin.'" (GOF "Veritaserum" p.599 UK edition) Crouch/Moody was wearing the cloak himself. He wouldn't need to hide a bone in an Invisibility Cloak..... Geoff From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sat Dec 13 07:53:48 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 18:53:48 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vauxhall Road and the Elixir of Life ( was The Diary (just where did V get In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FDB603C.25176.188405D@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 87022 On 13 Dec 2003 at 7:37, Geoff Bannister wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" > wrote: > > Geoff: > > > Which raises the additional point of how Tom got hold of a > > diary from Vauxhall Road in 1942. > > > Pippin: > > He might have been working there. Although children were > > moved out of London, many teens found their way back. There > > was a deperate labor shortage in the factories and orphans > > were routinely put to work at Tom's age in any case. Though I > > prefer to think of Tom skiving off his job and dealing in the black > > market. > > Geoff: > I think it unlikely in '42. He was at Hogwarts. He couldn't have had > a weekend job during term time and I can't wee the orphanage letting > him out to that sort of set up during the holidays. A paid job, maybe not... although I wouldn't rule it out completely. At 15 (as he would have been around 1942) the orphanage authorities might have been concerned about his employment prospects - remember they wouldn't have wanted him to wind up unemployable when he was an adult and in Britain at that time, a lot of boys that age would have already been starting on their future careers - as apprentices for example. The concern in Tom's case might have been less because he was at a boarding school (presumably as far as the authorities were concerned a normal boarding school) but if he expressed interest in working during his holidays and was able to show them a job, I suspect he'd have been allowed to do it. Yes, they probably wouldn't have let him do anything incredibly dangerous - but a delivery boy, something like that - quite plausible. An alternative - he could have been a boy scout (or something similar) - though Voldemort as a scout is an amusing idea to him. Boy scouts were volunteers during the war and were used quite extensively for a lot of things. A lot of people might be surprised at the age some people were doing very dangerous things during World War II. "By the end of the World War 2 more than 60,000 Scouts had been awarded the National Service Badge for their work at home. They had worked as First Aid orderlies, signallers, telephonists, Air Raid Precaution (ARP) messengers, stretcher-bearers, Coast Watch, Home Guard instructors and Rest Centre assistants. They had made camouflage nets, helped evacuate thousands of younger children from bombed city centres, harvested millions of tonnes of food and animal fodder, chopped wood on a massive scale (around 600,000 hours), and salvaged glass, metal and rubber for re-use. However, it was the service performed by Scouts during air raids and the Blitz on London that showed outstanding courage and application of the words of the Scout Promise and Law. 80 young Scouts were given Scouting gallantry medals, and in London, Coventry and Liverpool the Silver Cross (Scouting) was awarded to entire Troops." Children of Tom Riddle's age *were* allowed to do dangerous work in World War II. It did happen. So I don't think he would have been particularly stopped from working. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Dec 13 07:59:45 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 07:59:45 -0000 Subject: The Kacky Snorgle - Knowledge and Wisdom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87023 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dmoorehpnc" wrote: > > dmoorehpnc says: > ... I like the idea of Luna and Hermionne being polar opposites. > Rationality vs. Fantasy. Personally I think you need both. .... > ,,,edited,,, > bboy_mn: Perhaps Luna and Hermione aren't so much polar opposites as they are different sides of the same coin. I think we are seeing the difference between Knowledge and Wisdom. Luna's knowledge is completely corrupted and unrealistic, however, her wisdom seem clean and pure. Hermione on the other hand has impeccable knowledge but is lacking in the quality of her wisdom. Just a thought. bboy_mn From senderellabrat at aol.com Sat Dec 13 08:31:31 2003 From: senderellabrat at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 08:31:31 -0000 Subject: Magical Quills (Was: Teachers' workload) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87024 > Carol: > Having been a teacher myself, I'd like to think that the Hogwarts > teachers have magical quills (especially if they're looking at > anything beyond the content and complexity of the answer--clarity of > expression, for example--though I doubt that they are), but I see no > evidence of it. Snape looks at a paper assigned by Lupin that received > eight points and states, "I wouldn't have given it three" (in PoA > somewhere, quoted from memory). Either his magic quill marks the paper > exactly as he would have done, not just the mark/grade but the > comments, and he somehow knows what each paper received, or he goes > through the papers very quickly and marks only the points or the grade > received without comments. Otherwise, there's no way that he could > keep up with the workload *and* know how well each student is doing. > One thing that does help, though, is that he and the other teachers > don't teach every class every day. Most of them appear to meet twice a > week. Let's say that Mondays through Thursdays are divided among his > first through fifth year students and Fridays are devoted to his sixth > and seventh year NEWT classes. If the Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs have > double Potions like the Gryffindors and Slytherins, that would be > about five classes per day (except Fridays) and about forty to sixty > papers to mark every night (assuming twenty students per double > class). If I were Snape, I'd have to brew myself a potion to keep me > awake and mentally alert! And the grades also have to be recorded so > they can be averaged at end of term--definitely a job for a magical > quill if he has one, but again, I see no indication that he does. He > and McGonagall, who is twice his age, seem to have prodigious energy, > so maybe they can manage to mark all that homework without stay- awake > potions or magical quills--but only with a school population of 280 > rather than 1,000 students. Rowling as a former teacher would know the > limitations for a Muggle teacher. I don't think they'd be all that > different for a Witch or Wizard. Even Snape and McGonagall would have > their limits. Maybe overwork is part of the reason that Snape is so > hard on his students! :-) Me: I do believe they have the type of classes you mentioned. For some reason I remember something vaguely like it when they were going over schedules with each other. I don't have my books anywhere near me. No clue where my husband hid them. I do know I'm getting the 5 book set for Christmas from Santa. Ok I'm rambling now. ANYHOW! I think the quills may be useful to a point, but who's to say the Profs don't use time turners to help them keep up with things (making out lessons, grading, other Prof duties), get their rest, do their "patroling" of the halls and STILL stay sane. Not to mention we see them at Quiddich matches and we've seen them in their night clothes. They obviously have free time and sleep. Then again, if they're on a MWF type of schedule then their assignments wouldn't be an every day sort of thing. From the sound of it in the books they have an assignment per week because Hermione's always lecturing them about waiting so long to do them and the boys are doing them over the weekend. Just my 2 cents. =o) Sen There's how many days until Christmas? Where did I put *my* time turner?? From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Dec 13 08:52:48 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 08:52:48 -0000 Subject: Use of Madam - Gran and the Healer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87025 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arcum42" wrote: > The Healer in St. Mungos calls Nevilles granmother "Mrs Longbottom", > but we don't know her heritage... > > --Arcum bboy_mn: As I said and implied in my previous post, 'Madam' is a courtesy title used to show great respect, and is usually used Junior to Senior, in addition, it is a title of respect that ignores marital status. A woman working in a profression stands and is recognised on her own merit, and is therefore referenced without regard to her attachment or lack of attachment to a husband. The healer at St. Mungos may have seen Mrs. Longbottom as a contemporary, and therefore did not see the need to use a junior to senior courtesy reference. Also, in the hospital the healer is the professional and in her element which would imply the SHE is the one to whom respect is due. At the sametime, Gran Longbottom is an older, respected member of the community and a customer of the hospital, therefore the healer would neither talk down to Gran nor would she minimize her own respectful attitude. All things combine into the use of 'Mrs.' since it is respectful, but does not acknowledge superiority of social status. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Dec 13 09:30:01 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 09:30:01 -0000 Subject: Photographs in WW - See My Published Works In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87028 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dennis" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > --- Later, bboy_mn wrote: > > > > > > > In addition, I have this theory that photos are like miniature stage > > > > plays. The subjects in the photo are like actors in that they > play out > > > > the context ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dennis again: > > > I like that theory particularly, as it's the best fit of the > > > evidence we have I've heard. I would expand it to say that magical > > > (painted) portraits seem to be different in ways, and achieve a > > > consciousness that simple photographs do not. ... > > > > > > ------------- > > > Dennis > > bboy_mn: Sorry for this short post, but as long as we are on the subject, if you are interested in a more indepth analysis of Photos vs Paintings in the WW, please see my published works. Thu Sep 11, 2003 6:14 pm Re: photo vs. painting in magical world ... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/80505 Sat Aug 2, 2003 12:20 pm Portraits http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/74923 Good thread, lots of discussion. See my post later in the thread Tue Aug 12, 2003 2:38 pm Paintings vs. Photos http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/76735 Long thread with many sub-threads. My posts are in a sub-thread. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/76837 Just a suggestion. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Dec 13 10:48:08 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 10:48:08 -0000 Subject: Nature of the Unforgivables - Event vs Sustained In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031212145134.01f91bd0@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87029 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Derek Hiemforth wrote: > two4menone4you88 at a... wrote: > >I think what Bellatrix meant is that for each curse you have to really want > >the thing it does. for example for the AK curse you would have to really want > >to kill someone. In that case Sirius and Lupin could have killed Peter since > >they really wanted to. > > Derek: > At risk of repeating myself from an earlier post, I think it's more > than that. I think you have to take actual pleasure in it, not just > have a genuine wish to see it happen. > > ...edited.. > > Don't get me wrong; they *would* have killed him had Harry not > intervened. But I fully believe they would have had to do so by > means other than AK. > > - Derek bboy_mn: On this issue, I'm afraid I'm going to have to side with 'two4menone4you'. I believe it takes strong directed intent to make the Unforgivables function; you have to want the person dead, but I don't believe it take joyous intent. An Auror might with great regret and reluctance cast the AK curse, but at the same time, may do it with the full, unyielding, and unquestionable intent of killing the bad guy. In that circumstance, I firmly believe the curse would work. I will admit that it goes beyond intent, one must have a powerful, refined, and well-honed bit of magic behind it. I believe that is why fake!Moody said he wouldn't even get a nose bleed if the whole class cursed him. The students' magic is too unrefind, undeveloped, unskill, and generally lacking sufficient power, plus, I'm sure fake!Moody would be confident that the students could never gather sufficient intent to cause his death. Hitting some one effectively with the AK curse is FAR FAR more demanding that hitting them with a 'giggle' curse. Although a bit unrefinded, we know that Harry is a powerful, gifted, and out of the ordinary wizard, so why didn't his Cruciatus Curse work? Well, first of all, it did; it did work. He cast pain, and Belatrix felt pain. To what extent the curse MIGHT have been able to work, we don't know because Harry cast it improperly. We have seen two kinds of curse in this series of books, event driven and sustained curses. Event drive is like firing a gun, it's cast, it happens, it's done; BANG your stunned. The Cruciatus Curse on the other hand is a sustained curse, you can't just cast it then step back and let it run it's course. It must be cast and held with sustained intent. In every case of this curse in the book, the caster sustains the curse until he willfully and consciously chooses to lift it. I have to conclude that the Imperious Curse works the same way; it's not a set it and forget it. The caster has to maintain willfull intent in order to hold the victum in his spell. Although, in that case, to make it practical, the cast could just maintain his intent in the back of his mind. To be practical, he couldn't keep walking around all day repearing to himself; I'm cursing Bill, and Fred, and John, and Dick, and Tom, and.... It must leave the caster free to function normally, but at the same time, in the back of his mind he must maintain and awareness and intent of the people he is controlling. The malicious joy that Belatrix takes in casting the Cruciatus Curse would act to fuel her intent. It would act to re-enforce and magnifiy the effect of the curse, by magnifying her intent, and intensifying the magical power behind the curse. So, evil sadistic joy by the caster would certainly amplify the curse, but I don't believe it is required to make the curse happen. To your last point, that it was unlikely that Sirius and Remus intended to kill Peter with a true AK/Death Curse, I agree. A good example of a potentially lethal curse is the Reductor Curse, used to blast your way through solid objects. I think blasting a hole in my chest or my head would kill me. In addition, we know that when several wizards simultaneously cast the same curse, there curses cascade upon each other thereby amplifying the effect of the curse. When four wizards cast with equal intent, the result if at least four times the initial intent, and therefore potentially devastating and even deadly. We know that with sufficient intent and magical power, Dumbledore was able to disintegrate a heavy door and still have enough energy in his stunning curse to easily knock fake!Moody unconscious. Imagine if four wizards had simultaniously hit someone with a stunning curse that intense. If that didn't kill you, it would certainly make you wish you were dead. The resulting injuries would have to be substantial. Let's not forget that McGonagall was almost kill by a group stunning curse. Also, keep in mind that Remus and Sirius are brilliant knowledgable experienced wizards, they know many many many more spells the us poor readers do. Certianly they would have had a wide range of potentially distructive spells and curses to choose from. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From cherishedvette at yahoo.com Sat Dec 13 07:23:06 2003 From: cherishedvette at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 07:23:06 -0000 Subject: Bill's Visit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87030 Lionel: > Is the quote that Gryffindor hasn't won the *Quidditch* Cup in that > many years, or the *House* Cup? It's possible that Charlie's > Quidditch skills helped them win the Quidditch cup but that for > some reason they never won the House Cup (the reverse of the > situation in Harry's first two years). Karen: In SS/PS the House cup has been won by Slytherins for the last six years, and in the POA the Quidditch cup has not been won by Gryffindors in seven years. From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Dec 13 11:14:23 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 11:14:23 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall Road In-Reply-To: <3FDB603C.25176.188405D@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87031 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: Geoff: > > > > Which raises the additional point of how Tom got hold of a > > > diary from Vauxhall Road in 1942. Pippin: > > > He might have been working there. Although children were > > > moved out of London, many teens found their way back. There > > > was a deperate labor shortage in the factories and orphans > > > were routinely put to work at Tom's age in any case. Though I > > > prefer to think of Tom skiving off his job and dealing in the > > > > black market. Geoff: > > I think it unlikely in '42. He was at Hogwarts. He couldn't have had > > a weekend job during term time and I can't wee the orphanage letting > > him out to that sort of set up during the holidays. Shaun: > A paid job, maybe not... although I wouldn't rule it out > completely. Geoff: Although, Carolyn has already told us that the orphanage at Stockwell had evacuated its children away from London, so that still raises the point that if TR was pottering around Vauxhall Road, where was he coming from? If the orphanage had remained evacuated, then the children would be well out of London. Agreed, a lot of family evacuees returned to London for a variety of reasons but the orphans presumably wouldn't although the bombing threat was well reduced by this time until the next problem, the V1 "Doodlebugs" but (without looking things up) I think they started about 1944. An interesting side issue re the orphanage which I missed on Carolyn's notes. Spurgeon was not merely a religious philanthropist. Charles Haddon Spurgeon is one of the most famous and outstanding Baptist ministers in our denomination's history. "His" church, Spurgeon's Tabernacle still dominates the gyratory system at Elephant and Castle., just off the end of Kennington Lane/Vauxhall Road. Geoff From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sat Dec 13 11:34:58 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 22:34:58 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vauxhall Road In-Reply-To: References: <3FDB603C.25176.188405D@localhost> Message-ID: <3FDB9412.5442.252C427@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 87032 On 13 Dec 2003 at 11:14, Geoff Bannister wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" > wrote: > Geoff: > Although, Carolyn has already told us that the orphanage at Stockwell > had evacuated its children away from London, so that still raises the > point that if TR was pottering around Vauxhall Road, where was he > coming from? If the orphanage had remained evacuated, then the > children would be well out of London. Agreed, a lot of family > evacuees returned to London for a variety of reasons but the orphans > presumably wouldn't although the bombing threat was well reduced by > this time until the next problem, the V1 "Doodlebugs" but (without > looking things up) I think they started about 1944. June 1944. The thing is - while it would be nice to have a clear reason for placing Tom Riddle in the Vauxhall area, there may not have been any dramatic reason. I was joking in a previous post about the Oval - but just consider this scenario. Tom Riddle - orphaned at an early age. In his early teens, in London unaccompanied to go to Diagon Alley to get his supplies for school - and as it seems unlikely any of the Muggle authorities knew he was a wizard, it seems plausible he would have been unaccompanied. Even if he's not - I would guess maybe he might have been in the temporary care of a classmate from Hogwart's family. Regardless - he's in London - probably a fairly rare event. If he happens to be a cricket fan, I can see a boy in that situation, wanting to see the Oval - and heading into Kennington to see that. Or if he was in London soon after one of the major raids that hit the Lambeth area, he might have had a goulish fascination with that. Or he may have heard about the Dobkin case (-8 and wanted to see the scene. There wasn't a war on when I was a teen - but I do remember having the freedom for the first time to head into Melbourne unaccompanied and to see the bits of the city I wanted to see. And on occasions, I went considerably out of my way to see certain things. A boy who is stuck at a country orphanage most of the time - I can see him doing the same. I mention the Oval simply because it's the most prominent landmark I personally know of in that general area. The thing is - there may not be any type of earthshattering reason - or even an important reason - for Tom Riddle to have been in the Vauxhall Road. Idle curiousity could be enough. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From spang_b at yahoo.co.in Sat Dec 13 12:35:45 2003 From: spang_b at yahoo.co.in (spang_b) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 12:35:45 -0000 Subject: The Rare Cloaks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87033 Hi, Geoff: > Crouch/Moody was wearing the cloak himself. He wouldn't need to hide > a bone in an Invisibility Cloak..... If Dumbledore could spot Harry under an invisibility cloak in Philosopher's Stone, why couldn't he spot Moody in Goblet of Fire? Bye Adi From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Sat Dec 13 13:53:21 2003 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 13:53:21 -0000 Subject: HP and the democratic equilibrium(Re: Umbridge, brooms and DEs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87034 Hi all, Geoff wrote: "I did the same when I was teaching and removed items from pupils. I would usually give them back at the end of the day with an admonition "If I see it again, it goes away until the end of term"." Things didn't change. I remember that, three years ago, I used to spend part of my time removing things from my students (portable phones, diaries, hair rushes, makeup, compassed they used to write their names on the tables, glue sticks , while I was trying to make them speak Spanish. At the end of the hour, my desk was looking like a left-luggage office Geoff: "Umbridge is way over the top. She has already sanctioned Harry by baning him from Quidditch. This is just to twist the knife. The Firebolt was noting to do with the fight. Suppose a professional football player is banned for a couple of months for bad play of some sort. He doesn't have to hand over any footballs he owns; he isn't told he can't kick a ball around in his garden. Harry owns a valuable, rare Firebolt. He has every right to use it to fly around on for fun and relaxation; he's not going to get to play Quidditch anyway because he's banned." I hate Umbridge. She's a sadist. I find the "Detention with Dolores" chapter hardly bearable. Even if a kid is difficult, there's no reason why they should be treated that way. Being an adult doesn't allow you to act like a dictator towards a child. Back to what Geoff writes, I find the end of the paragraph very interesting: without his Firebolt, Harry can't fly around on. That means: he can't escape from Hogwarts on his own. For example, he can't use the Firebolt to fly to London. Taking the broom is a very useful mean to keep him under Umbridge's control. (Of course she neglected Hagrid's lesson about Thestrals- snicker). That brings up one question: who is she really working for? I suppose that there is more than sadism in her acts, the dirty creepy crawly. Geoff: "While on the subject of DJU, I consider JKR's portrayal of her gives us a picture of evil woman who, in literary terms, is equally to be loathed as Dickens' Wackford Squeers. There has been speculation in the past as to whether the dear lady is actually a closet Death Eater. My thoughts move along the lines that when you get diametrically polarised ultra-extremists, you in fact get an almost identical result. If you look at the way in which Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia functioned, although they were political opposites, the methods - secret police, executions, suppression of opposition, disregard of legal trials etc. appeared to be virtually identical. Apply the same to the Wizarding Worlda and you see on one hand the Death Eaters and on the other fanatics like Umbridge and Crouch Senior and the end result appears to be that they are clones of each other. Dolores Umbridge is a scheming bully who likes to be cock of the walk in her little world. Let's hope that she doesn't claw her way back up in the next book or so..." That answers my former question. I agree with you, paralleling what seems to be at first glance two opposite behaviours is probably one of JKR's intentions. The Death Eaters and Umbridge are like that snake that bites its own tail (by the way, it's an alchemical image Thanks for your post, Geoff, I wonder whether I would have seen that without your thoughtful message). We could add that the global behaviour of the Wizarding World leads to the same dangerous situation. For example, refusing to speak Voldemort's name, ita est, to call him what he really is, is as dangerous as working for him. I'd better say: IT IS working for him. Using euphemisms such as "He Who Must Not Be Named" or "You Know Who" can lead to believe that he is not that terrible. It makes people forget how dangerous he is, and it opens the door to his return. That's all the paradox of tolerance, and all the delicate question of the democratic equilibrium. Who said that HP was only a child book? Two Knuts, Amicalement, Iris From sophierom at yahoo.com Sat Dec 13 14:10:56 2003 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 14:10:56 -0000 Subject: Traitors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87035 wrote: > I read here that maybe Bill is a would-be traitor. I felt quite > desmayed about that possibility and I hope it won't prove true. As > for Percy, and considering his attitudes in Phoenix, he might just as > well be, but I also read in the HP Lexicon that he is probably > working undecover for the Order and that sounds much more interesting > and "twisty". I don't see a reason for the compulsory existence of a > traitor in the Weasley family!> Sophierom: I also hope that Bill and Percy are not traitors. I've been wondering how we could possibly predict who the next traitor will be, if there is one. And here's what I've come up with (if someone's already said this before, sorry for the repeat): In the past books, all of the traitors have been what I'd like to think of as seemingly "neutral" in the beginning of the story. For example, when JKR first introduces Quirrell in PS/SS, Harry sees him as neither good nor bad; he just is. Same with Scabbers in PoA. These characters don't seem important to Harry; if they died (as Scabbers seemed to in PoA), he wouldn't really miss them. In short, there's no real love or respect (or, conversely, loathing or malice); Harry doesn't feel one way or the other about them. I have to admit that fake!Moody is a little bit different on GoF. Still, even with Fake!Moody, I don't think Harry's awe at the professor's "coolness" (he turned Draco into a ferrett!) can necessarily be construed as love or deep respect. Harry didn't turn to fake!Moody for emotional support. In contrast, Harry's relationship with the previous DADA professor, Lupin, seems much more heartfelt. Lupin and Harry create a friendship in PoA that fake! Moody never builds with Harry. Harry worries what Lupin thinks of him (why didn't Lupin let me deal with the boggart?), he trusts him with personal information (I see the death of my parents when the dementors near), and this helps to build a solid friendship. (I guess this idea is based on the assumption that Lupin will remain faithful throughout books 6 and 7; it's obvious here that I'm not a fan of ESE!Lupin!) Fake!Moody may have helped Harry out of some binds in GoF, but he doesn't really play a role in Harry's inner world, his emotional state. Conversely, the people whom Harry sees as mean, nasty people (Snape is the best example) have turned out not to be so bad (still mean, but so far, not a traitor ... will this be true of Draco, too?). Snape figures into Harry's emotional world on a regular basis, causing dread, anxiety, anger, confusion in Harry's mind. I think it's the people/creatures who don't really register in Harry's mind as being important to him who turn out to be traitors. Whether this trend will continue in books 6 and 7, I can't say. But it's a good device for JKR - because we see everything through Harry's eyes, and so we are also surprised when it's someone seemingly unimportant (Scabbers is a DE! ... I was surprised, at least). To make it someone that Harry obviously dislikes (Snape) is too easy. To make it someone Harry loves (Lupin, Dumbledore) would be cruel, not only to Harry but to the readers. Such a character reversal would be a cheap trick, in my opinion, whereas the sneakiness JKR shows in her depictions of Quirrell, Scabbers and fake!Moody are brilliant. Given this trend, I think that, if any of the Weasleys have to be traitors, it would be Bill or Charlie, as they are the most "neutral" of the brothers. Still, the Weasleys have become Harry's family; Mr. and Mrs. Weasley are very much like adopted parents to Harry, and by extention, Bill and Charlie are like brothers. In this respect, they are very important to Harry, if only in an abstract sort of way. Of course, sometimes it is the people who are closest to us that betray us, and JKR has not shied away from realistically depicting the hardships of growing up. She's been willing to deal with the death of someone close. Still, I think that if someone really close to Harry ends up being a traitor, JKR risks turning Harry into a very bitter, cynical young man. She'd certainly make me a bitter young woman! Sophierom, who apologizes for the rambling nature of the post ... it's still early in the morning for me! From rredordead at aol.com Sat Dec 13 14:45:46 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 14:45:46 -0000 Subject: Potters as their own Secret Keepers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87036 "Arya" wrote: > Ok, it has just occurred to me...if Dumbledore was able to be the Secret Keeper for the Order and easily come and go about Grimmauld Place, then why couldn't either Lily or James have been the Secret Keeper for when they went into hiding? Also-- what happens if a Secret Keeper is killed? Ooh--since the secret is locking within the *soul*, what happens if a Dementor kisses that person and sucks out their soul? Mandy here: I think you raise two very good points. Perhaps the reason for a third party secret keeper is because of the danger of keeping your own secret. The danger being that if you die the secret dies with you, and whatever is in hiding remains in hiding for the rest of eternity. What I mean by this is if you are on the run and go into hiding because there is a very good chance you are going to be killed, you wouldn't want to be the only keeper of the secret in case you died. It would behoove you to have a second or third person who is not as much at risk as you are to move around outside the hiding place and interact with your contacts outside. Dumbledore is possibly the only exception as he is such a powerful wizard if he did find himself at risk he seems to have means of passing on the secret address anyway. He passed it on to Harry via a piece of magical paper in OotP. Also this might explain why James and Lily agreed to change SK as they may have believed that Peter was at less risk of being killed than Sirius. We don't know what their jobs for the Order were but it seems likely to me that Sirius, along with James, were out risking their lives daily and Peter was handling more of a safer desk job. I don't wish to insult Peter's ability, as I believe he is severely underestimated by most readers, and is a very capable, powerful wizard. He just happens to be a coward. I know this has lots of holes in it but it was my initial thought. Anyone else have any ideas? Mandy From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Dec 13 15:19:26 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 15:19:26 -0000 Subject: HP and the democratic equilibrium(Re: Umbridge, brooms and DEs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87037 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "iris_ft" wrote: Geoff: > Harry owns a valuable, rare Firebolt. He has every right to use it > to fly around on for fun and relaxation; he's not going to get to > play Quidditch anyway because he's banned." Iris: > Back to what Geoff writes, I find the end of the paragraph very > interesting: without his Firebolt, Harry can't fly around on. That > means: he can't escape from Hogwarts on his own. For example, he > can't use the Firebolt to fly to London. Geoff: Unless my memory is failing, there are college brooms available. I seem to recall a reference to a broomshed where they took the brooms after practice and there are certainly the brooms used by Madam Hooch in her training classes. From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Sat Dec 13 15:58:18 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 10:58:18 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Potters as their own Secret Keepers? References: Message-ID: <004c01c3c191$ed6258d0$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> No: HPFGUIDX 87038 ----- Original Message ----- From: Arya Ok, it has just occurred to me...if Dumbledore was able to be the Secret Keeper for the Order and easily come and go about Grimmauld Place, then why couldn't either Lily or James have been the Secret Keeper for when they went into hiding? Interesting. The only difference I can think of is that Lilly and James and Harry were the secret, not their house. It said Voldemort could look in their window and not see them. Dumbledore was secret keeper of, not himself, or his house, but Sirius house. This secret keeper business is very complex. I hope we learn more about it in the next books. Joj [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Sat Dec 13 16:12:43 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 11:12:43 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Traitors References: Message-ID: <006801c3c193$f064b170$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> No: HPFGUIDX 87039 ----- Original Message ----- From: bookworm5252 I read here that maybe Bill is a would-be traitor. I felt quite desmayed about that possibility and I hope it won't prove true. As for Percy, and considering his attitudes in Phoenix, he might just as well be, but I also read in the HP Lexicon that he is probably working undecover for the Order and that sounds much more interesting and "twisty". I don't see a reason for the compulsory existence of a traitor in the Weasley family! Also and despite being one of the translators of HP books into portuguese I feel crushed by the depth of knowledge most people here show in regard to the tiniest details. Has anyone here seen the theory on Mugglenet that Percy is OotP is really Wormtail in polyjuice fashion half the time and under the Imperius curse the other half? I thought it was quite interesting. Joj [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Dec 13 16:41:50 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 16:41:50 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall Road In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87040 > Geoff: > > > > > Which raises the additional point of how Tom got hold of a diary from Vauxhall Road in 1942. > > Shaun: > > A paid job, maybe not... although I wouldn't rule it out > > completely. > > > > Geoff: > Although, Carolyn has already told us that the orphanage at Stockwell had evacuated its children away from London, so that still raises the point that if TR was pottering around Vauxhall Road, where was he coming from? If the orphanage had remained evacuated, then the children would be well out of London. Agreed, a lot of family evacuees returned to London for a variety of reasons but the orphans presumably wouldn't although the bombing threat was well reduced by > this time until the next problem, the V1 "Doodlebugs" but (without looking things up) I think they started about 1944.<< > The orphanage wouldn't necessarily keep its teenage charges all together in an institution but would place them out into boarding houses or families. It was considered a positive social good for teenagers to work and teenage orphans might be expected to hold down jobs in the summer -- domestic service for girls and agricultural or factory jobs for boys. These jobs were often dangerous in their own right, worker safety laws being still in their infancy. Tom would have been risking damage to his wand arm as well as hours of stultifying backbreaking repititious labor in the factories or fields. It would be a bit complicated for Tom to explain all that to Dippet, who presumably knows very little about Muggle ways. Pippin From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Sat Dec 13 17:39:09 2003 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 17:39:09 -0000 Subject: The Firebolt and the Thestral (was:HP and the democratic equilibrium) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87041 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "iris_ft" wrote: > > Geoff: > > Harry owns a valuable, rare Firebolt. He has every right to use it > > to fly around on for fun and relaxation; he's not going to get to > > play Quidditch anyway because he's banned." > > > Iris: > > Back to what Geoff writes, I find the end of the paragraph very > > interesting: without his Firebolt, Harry can't fly around on. That > > means: he can't escape from Hogwarts on his own. For example, he > > can't use the Firebolt to fly to London. > > Geoff: > Unless my memory is failing, there are college brooms available. I > seem to recall a reference to a broomshed where they took the brooms > after practice and there are certainly the brooms used by Madam Hooch > in her training classes. Iris again: Right. And I suppose that they are available by permission of one of the teachers, that students can't borrow them like they want. But of course, it would be discussing Hogwarts inner rules, and I'm not even sure whether I master correctly the inner rules of my own school (but please, don't tell my boss). So that's why what I write is only a supposition. I'd like also to add that the removing of the Firebolt, a gift Harry had received from his godfather, is part of the clue game that leads to the loss of Sirius, as it has certainly been said already. And it gives Harry the opportunity to ride a Thestral, just like Dumbledore does, if we trust what Hagrid says. So it's probably not too far- fetched if we say that it can also mean that Harry has to reach an upper level in magic and at the same time in his psychological evolution. The Firebolt was linked up with Quidditch, with the Patronus Charm. Symbolically, both Quidditch and the Patronus Charm deal with Harry's personal achievement or protection (of course, their meaning can change by now). Loosing the Firebolt, riding a Thestral, mean that Harry will have by now to care for someone else than himself, and will have to learn better what it means to act towards other people. If the prophecy is true, there's no place for personal ego in Harry's destiny. Before OotP, he was like a "secret weapon" in the war game between good and evil, the same way he was Gryffindor's secret weapon in the Quidditch game (see what JKR says before his first match in PS/SS). But now things are completely different, and Harry will have to learn to act in another way. The very first lesson was very rude (trying to act on his own, trying to save Sirius, he lost him). We have to wait and see what will happen in the forthcoming books. Being captain of his Quidditch team would help him to understand and master the responsibility he has by now as a potential leader in the war against the Dark Side. Being Head Boy too. But of course, only JKR knows what will happen. Amicalement, Iris (if all that I wrote was already said, debated, commented, i.e, if my post is nothing new, I apologize) From sophierom at yahoo.com Sat Dec 13 14:46:28 2003 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 14:46:28 -0000 Subject: HP and the democratic equilibrium(Re: Umbridge, brooms and DEs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87042 Geoff: Iris: Sophierom: Who indeed? :-) I think both Iris and Geoff's points about Umbridge and the "respectable" WW vs. LV and the DE are excellent. I wanted to add, though, that I think the euphemisms "You Know Who," "He Who Must Not Be Named" and "Lord Thingy" (my favorite from Fudge in OOTP) are more a sign of fear and denial than tolerance. Even if we understand tolerance by its most basic definition - to tolerate - and not its most common usage today - to accept, even include, welcome -even then the euphemisms suggest that the WW would rather pretend that LV is a devil, a bogyman, a "thingy," not a real person who was once a child, once had feelings ... basically, the WW has to pretend that he's not a product of the same world that the "good" people helped to make. I think this is one of the reasons why Dumbledore not only refuses to use euphemisms but also insists on using LV's boyhood name ... Tom. In OOTP, when they are fighting, DD continually refers to LV as Tom, which at first I thought was a really clever slight (you think you're so great, do you? Well, I remember when you were just a snot-nosed kid in my class!). But it's also an admission of LV's humanity ... and perhaps a reminder to DD himself that whatever LV has become, he developed in the same culture that helped produce the "good" guys like Harry, James, and even DD himself. Sophierom From LWalshETAL at aol.com Sat Dec 13 14:59:09 2003 From: LWalshETAL at aol.com (LWalshETAL at aol.com) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 09:59:09 EST Subject: Ghosts and Their Powers Message-ID: <6e.35ed8058.2d0c833d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87043 I have thinking a bit more about Nearly Headless Nick and ghosts in general. As he said himself, he was in Gryffindor, but he also said that he was afraid of death. Since courage is supposedly the greatest strength of students in Gryffindor, what if Nick, like Percy, has yet to show why he was put in Gryffindor. What if his most courageous act is yet to come? How can ghosts show courage? What is it that he has to fear remaining a ghost for another 500 years? And, if he is to show courage in any way, what is it that he can actually DO? What powers do ghosts have? They can float through the air and through other objects, such as walls. Peeves, at least, believes that they can become invisible. They can talk and remember, so they could be used to deliver messages to locked places. Since ghosts wear clothes and still manage to go through walls, does anything they are holding become able to go through walls as well? Could they carry something with them through the wall? Can ghosts use wands? Can they do magic? What power does the Bloody Baron have that frightens Peeves? Another speculation: we were not told about was how Madame Pomfrey managed to revive NHN after he was attacked by the basilisk. We see neither how she did it, nor his reaction to it. Would NHN have been upset to have been revived? Would he have thought that he had finally reached the end of his 500 years of being a ghost? LV also fears death. If he died right now, would he become a ghost? Would that be worse than death for him? LauraW LWalshETAL at aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arioth at peoplepc.com Sat Dec 13 15:25:19 2003 From: arioth at peoplepc.com (arioth1) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 15:25:19 -0000 Subject: The Headmaster's Hideouts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87044 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "spang_b" wrote: > Hi, > In OOTP,in the chapter The Centaur and The Sneak, Dumbledore says > he's not going into hiding. We know that he hasn't gone to > Grimmauld Place. So where was he till his reappearance at the Ministry and > what was he doing? > Bye > Adi I had always just assumed he'd been hanging out in one of those rooms above the Hog's Head Inn, spending some quality time with brother Aberforth. Now, as for what he was doing for the order I have no clue. Gathering information from the patrons in disquise? He was obviously getting info somehow. I'm not so great at coming up with crazy magical solutions for these things. I'll leave that up to you more imaginitive posters. Back to lurking! Ari From kmsyarto at hotmail.com Sat Dec 13 17:15:12 2003 From: kmsyarto at hotmail.com (marigoldevans) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 17:15:12 -0000 Subject: The Headmaster's Hideouts In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031212174037.025ae4c0@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87045 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Derek Hiemforth wrote: > digger wrote: > >So here is my next theory (hope its > >not so easily trashed as my last) Dumbledore is a metamorphmagus. > >He stayed on at Hogwarts under various disguises. After all, there > >is nothing as good as being hidden while in full view! That could > >also be how he has kept such a close watch on Harry all this time. > > Derek: > This might also be what he meant when he told Harry in SS/PS that > he didn't need an invisibility cloak to be invisible. He might not > have meant literally invisible, so much as just not noticed... > > - Derek I agree that he would have wanted to stay close to keep an eye on his school and Harry, and there doesn't seem to be anything out there to disprove that DD could be a metamorphmagus. But there is another way he could have stayed in the area, if not at the school. If Aberforth is indeed DD's brother, as many people suspect, it would seem an ideal solution for DD to go hang out at the Hog's Head. In fact, in Chapter 32, Out of the Fire (Am. ed., pg. 748), while Hermione is tearfully explaining that they had tried to contact DD at the Leaky Cauldron, the Three Broomsticks, and even the Hog's Head, Dolores angrily cuts her off shouting, "Idiot girl, Dumbledore won't be sitting in a pub when the whole Ministry's looking for him!" (Sorry about that long sentence!) After reading that, I never doubted that that was exactly what DD was doing. Marigoldevans From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Sat Dec 13 19:46:29 2003 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 19:46:29 -0000 Subject: Denial, euphemisms, tolerance(Re: HP and the democratic equilibrium ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87046 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sophierom" wrote: > I think both Iris and Geoff's points about Umbridge and > the "respectable" WW vs. LV and the DE are excellent. I wanted to > add, though, that I think the euphemisms "You Know Who," "He Who > Must Not Be Named" and "Lord Thingy" (my favorite from Fudge in OOTP) > are more a sign of fear and denial than tolerance. Even if we > understand tolerance by its most basic definition - to tolerate - > and not its most common usage today - to accept, even include, > welcome -even then the euphemisms suggest that the WW would rather > pretend that LV is a devil, a bogyman, a "thingy," not a real person > who was once a child, once had feelings ... basically, the WW has to > pretend that he's not a product of the same world that the "good" > people helped to make. > > I think this is one of the reasons why Dumbledore not only refuses > to use euphemisms but also insists on using LV's boyhood name ... > Tom. In OOTP, when they are fighting, DD continually refers to LV > as Tom, which at first I thought was a really clever slight (you > think you're so great, do you? Well, I remember when you were just a > snot-nosed kid in my class!). But it's also an admission of LV's > humanity ... and perhaps a reminder to DD himself that whatever LV > has become, he developed in the same culture that helped produce > the "good" guys like Harry, James, and even DD himself. > > Sophierom Denial, humanity: that's it! And that's why euphemisms are so dangerous. Every time they deny that Voldemort can be human, every time they consider that he is "something or someone else", the wizards deny that they could become what he is. They deny the beast every human being potentially conceals, and that they have to master. If you fail, you become Voldemort. It's what happens when Crouch Sr rejects his own son. It's what happens when Hogwarts become dangerous to its own students. Is there a better example of humanity than a school, a cultural and educative place? But if you open the Chamber of Secrets (you know, that place that according to everybody was nothing but a legend), or if you open the door to Dolores Umbridge, then it is dangerous to everyone, because the Beast it hides (Old Slytherin fear of loosing the wizarding identity, "personified" by a Basilisk, or an excessive interpretation of rules) takes over. Denial and tolerance are not incompatible from this viewpoint: they generate one another. Wizards deny that they can be like Voldemort because, admitting the contrary, they would have to face their defects and weaknesses, and to admit that they have to improve (morally, socially ) But they are so pleased with themselves They like their weaknesses (their tradition of elves- enslavement, their prejudice towards Muggles ), they tolerate them, because it's easier to pretend that they are important. However, they don't tolerate the amplified version of themselves that is called Voldemort. It's unbearable, so the solution is denial, euphemisms and even tolerance for what shouldn't be tolerated (for example the use of terms such as "mudblood"). So they can tolerate better their own weaknesses. That's human, so human (we could parallel it with our world, but it would be OT. Moreover, I feel that if I go on philosophising that way, I will end up with a headache ). And yes, you're completely right in your analyze of Dumbledore calling Voldemort by his boyhood name as an admission of the Dark Lord's humanity. Voldemort wouldn't be Voldemort if he wasn't human. And Dumbledore wouldn't understand him so well if he didn't admit previously that he hosts the Beast himself. The difference is that he accepts his weakness, that he masters it, so his situation is completely different. Tom changed his name into "Voldemort" because he probably didn't know how to deal with his human weakness, with the Beast he had inside. Dumbledore faced his own humanity, with all that it implies, and managed to deal with it to become what he is. He doesn't deny Voldemort, and even maybe he tolerates him, because he's conscious of sharing with him the same human weakness. But he doesn't tolerate what this human weakness has become in Tom's case: that's what JKR tells us at the very beginning of the series when she makes Mac Gonagall declare that Dumbledore has the same powers than Voldemort but is too noble to use them. In other words: Dumbledore hosts the same Beast than Voldemort, but he refuses to let it take over. Now the question is: will Harry be able to do the same? Will he be able to admit that Voldemort is like himself? Will he be able to face the mirror, to face the scar? I would bet that yes: he's the hero of the series, after all! Amicalement, Iris (apologizing for that rather confused message) From lmbolland at earthlink.net Sat Dec 13 21:57:09 2003 From: lmbolland at earthlink.net (goodnight_moon5) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 21:57:09 -0000 Subject: Use of Madam - Madam Bones In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87047 > bboy_mn: > > As I said and implied in my previous post, 'Madam' is a courtesy title > used to show great respect, and is usually used Junior to Senior, in > addition, it is a title of respect that ignores marital status. A > woman working in a profression stands and is recognised on her own > merit, and is therefore referenced without regard to her attachment or > lack of attachment to a husband. Lauri: You're right. Amelia Bones is called Madam Bones. She is the unmarried sister of Susan Bones'father. Madam is the female equivalent of Mister, which does not distinguish between married and unmarried men. (ex: unmarried (ick, we assume) Mr. Filch and married Mr. Crouch) Madam Pomfrey is not a professor, apparently neither is Madam Hooch, so they need *some* sort of title of respect. Lauri From belijako at online.no Sat Dec 13 22:01:23 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 22:01:23 -0000 Subject: Snape and Krum -Relatives? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87048 Krum and Snape are both described as being thin, dark and sallow- skinned with large hooked/curved noses and black, prominent eyes. They're both distinctly round-shouldered (the juvenile version of Snape), and both are described looking like overgrown winged creatures; one as a bat and the other as a bird of prey. Snape is described as walking in a twitching manner; Krum is duck-footed and also walking awkwardly. Both have a grumpy and surly look about them; keeping to themselves, being moody and not too talkative; scowling, contracting their eyebrows etc. What Snape doesn't seem to have, are Krum's thick eyebrows, and Krum's hair doesn't seem to be greasy. But other than that the two are described very similarly, aren't they, both when it comes to physical appearance and personality. Anyone thinks this is significant; that they might be related somehow? I'm not saying Krum is Snape's son (I don't think so), just that they might be related; purely based on Rowling's description of them. I'm sorry if this topic has been dealt with earlier on this forum; I tried to search for anything on the subject, but couldn't find any... If you like to look at the "evidence", I've collected a few quotes describing the two: Descriptions of Krum: "The tents here had not been bedecked with plant life, but each and every one of them had the same poster attached to it, a poster of a very surly face with heavy black eyebrows. The picture was of course moving, but all it did was blink and scowl. `Krum,' said Ron quietly. ...'Viktor Krum, the Bulgarian Seeker!' `He looks really grumpy,' said Hermione, looking around at the many Krums blinking and scowling a them. `Really grumpy?' Ron raised his eyes to the heavens. `Who cares what he looks like? He's unbelievable. He's really young, too. Only eighteen or something. He's a genius, you wait until tonight, you'll see.'" (GoF p. 77) "Viktor Krum was thin, dark and sallow-skinned, with a large curved nose and thick black eyebrows. He looked like an overgrown bird of prey. It was hard to believe he was only eighteen." (GoF p. 95) "Krum, who was last in line, looked a real mess. Two black eyes were blooming spectacularly on his bloody face. He was still holding the snitch. Harry noticed that he seemed much less co-ordinated on the ground. He was slightly duck-footed and distinctly round-shouldered." (GoF p. 104) "He [Ron] took his small figure of Krum out of his pocket, set it down on the ground and watched it walk around for a while. Like the real Krum, the model was slightly duck-footed and round-shouldered, much less impressive on his splayed feet than on his broomstick." (GoF p. 114) "Viktor Krums surly face darkened as he surveyed Harry"... "Krum's thick eyebrows contracted slightly." (GoF p. 241) "Viktor Krum was standing moodily in a corner as usual, and not talking to anybody." (GoF p. 265) Descriptions of Snape: "Professor Quirrell... was talking to a teacher with greasy hair, a hooked nose and sallow skin." (PS p. 94) "His eyes were black like Hagrid's, but they had none of Hagrid's warmth. They were cold and empty and made one think of dark tunnels." (PS p. 102) "...So useful to have him swooping around like an overgrown bat." (PS p. 209) "There, his black robes rippling in a cold breezer, stood Severus Snape. He was a thin man with sallow skin, a hooked nose and greasy, shoulder-length black hair..." (CoS p. 62) "...Snape, gliding over like a large, malevolent bat." (CoS p. 144) "Snape-the-teenager had a stringy, pallid look about him, like a plant kept in the dark. His hair was lanky and greasy, and was flopping on to the table, his hooked nose barely half an inch from the surface of the parchment as he scribbled." (OotP p. 564) "Round-shouldered yet angular, he walked in a twitchy manner that recalled a spider, and his oily hair was jumping about his face." (OotP p. 566) Quotes are from the UK Editions. Berit From amyg at babes-in-arms.com Sat Dec 13 22:05:16 2003 From: amyg at babes-in-arms.com (Amy Greil) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 17:05:16 -0500 Subject: Hogwarts Ghosts References: Message-ID: <003b01c3c1c5$3122d3f0$fcbafea9@Den> No: HPFGUIDX 87049 First post! One of the questions I have about the house ghosts is why, if they are former Hogwart's Students, do at least 3 of them have a title or position presumably conferred by the muggle world? NHN is a knight, BB is a baron, FF is a monk and the Grey Lady could be simply a nickname or she is, in fact, "Lady So and So." I have a hard time imagining a Hogwarts-trained wizard entering a Muggle monastary! Also, why are they haunting Hogwarts? Myrtle haunts the girl's room because she died there (and was stopped from stalking Iris Hornsby) but did the other ghosts die there? Were they, like Prof. Binns, once teachers there? Or is this another case of thinking too deeply about something JKR just dashed off? ---Amy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amyg at babes-in-arms.com Sat Dec 13 22:17:55 2003 From: amyg at babes-in-arms.com (Amy Greil) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 17:17:55 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Use of Madam - Madam Bones References: Message-ID: <004101c3c1c6$f5169890$fcbafea9@Den> No: HPFGUIDX 87050 Lauri said: Madam is the female equivalent of Mister, which does not distinguish between married and unmarried men. (ex: unmarried (ick, we assume) Mr. Filch and married Mr. Crouch) Madam Pomfrey is not a professor, apparently neither is Madam Hooch, so they need *some* sort of title of respect. Now Amy: But Moody, Lockhart, Lupin and Umbridge are called "Professor" once they begin teaching at Hogwarts, and we have no evidence that they are the recipient of any kind of teaching degree. So if "Professor" is simply a title of respect shown to any teacher, shouldn't Hooch, Hagrid and Firenz also be Professors? Since there is apparently no other wizarding school in Britain, and no evidence for wizard primary schools, it seems silly that there would be a teacher training program somewhere turning out "Professors" with limited job prospects. Oh, and then there's Madame Maxine, who IS apparently a teacher and headmistress, but who is addressed by her first name like she is a nursery school teacher! I can't figure out if this is just an oversight on JKR's part or an indication of the shoddy nature of education in the WW! ---Amy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jow at warp8.com Sat Dec 13 19:50:13 2003 From: jow at warp8.com (J.O. Williams) Date: 13 Dec 2003 12:50:13 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and the democratic equilibrium(Re: Umbridge, brooms and DEs) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1071345013.12064.41.camel@stone.homenetwork> No: HPFGUIDX 87051 On Sat, 2003-12-13 at 06:53, iris_ft wrote: > > Geoff: > "Umbridge is way over the top. She has already sanctioned Harry by > baning him from Quidditch. This is just to twist the knife. The > Firebolt was noting to do with the fight. Suppose a professional > football player is banned for a couple of months for bad play of some > sort. He doesn't have to hand over any footballs he owns; he isn't > told he can't kick a ball around in his garden. Harry owns a > valuable, rare Firebolt. He has every right to use it to fly around > on for fun and relaxation; he's not going to get to play Quidditch > anyway because he's banned." The incident that got Harry banned after the game was after the game and outside the jurisdiction of the games referee. Since the fight was after the game, the Umbridge was in her right to punish everyone very severily including banning. If the incident happened during the game, the referee could have applied the appropriate penalty and Umbridge would (and should) not have been involved. If the incident is before or after a the game and the referee doesn't jurisdiction, the Umbridge and Aurors could have been involved. All sport rule books I have read have a specific time before a match that the official can take take jurisdiction. Likewise, after a game the referee gives up jurisdiction, usually after the final gun or signing the score book. Harry and the twins were plain stupid, but it did set up the story for the Weasley's Grand exit. I think that a lifetime banishment was a little harsh for an underage wizard. I have refereed US football (25 years) and Lacrosse (8 years), and sports suspend the usual laws that we normally live under for the duration of a game. For instance, in Lacrosse it is OK to beat (within reason) upon your opponent with a "club" that under normal laws would be considered assault. Taking away equipment that you yourself paid for is theft. Umbridge can't steal equipment that doesn't belong to Hogwarts. -- J.O. Williams From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Dec 13 22:44:23 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 17:44:23 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hogwarts Ghosts Message-ID: <8f.360ba859.2d0cf047@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87052 In a message dated 12/13/2003 5:35:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, Amy (amyg at babes-in-arms.com) writes: One of the questions I have about the house ghosts is why, if they are former Hogwart's Students, do at least 3 of them have a title or position presumably conferred by the muggle world? NHN is a knight, BB is a baron, FF is a monk and the Grey Lady could be simply a nickname or she is, in fact, "Lady So and So." I have a hard time imagining a Hogwarts-trained wizard entering a Muggle monastary! Sherrie here: I think the ghosts come from a time when the Wizard and Muggle worlds touched far more than they do today. IIRC, NHN is more or less (give or take a century or so) a contemporary of Wendelin the Weird, who obviously had contact with the Muggle world . There are cases of royalty having connections with wizards (John Dee and Nostradamus leap forcefully to mind) as late as the Elizabethan period - I'd imagine that, as long as a wizard kept his nose clean and rubbed blue mud in his navel when everyone around him did, there's no reason why royalty would treat them differently - unless they WANTED to get rid of them, in which case drawing the attention of the masses to them would be a good way to keep their own hands clean... Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Dec 13 22:46:22 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 17:46:22 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Use of Madam - Madam Bones Message-ID: <158.29a5f170.2d0cf0be@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87053 In a message dated 12/13/2003 5:36:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, Amy (amyg at babes-in-arms.com) writes: Oh, and then there's Madame Maxine, who IS apparently a teacher and headmistress, but who is addressed by her first name like she is a nursery school teacher! Sherrie here: Actually, Madam Maxime is addressed by her LAST name - her first name is Olympe. Additionally, she's French... Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 13 23:12:51 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 23:12:51 -0000 Subject: Use of Madam - Madam Bones In-Reply-To: <004101c3c1c6$f5169890$fcbafea9@Den> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87054 Amy wrote: > > Oh, and then there's Madame Maxine, who IS apparently a teacher and headmistress, but who is addressed by her first name like she is a nursery school teacher! > > I can't figure out if this is just an oversight on JKR's part or an indication of the shoddy nature of education in the WW! Carol: Small correction. Maxime (not Maxine) is her last name. It appears to be derived from "maximus" (Latin for "largest"). Her first name (used by Hagrid, I forget where but obviously in GoF) is Olympe, suggesting the Olympic gods of Greek mythology. Carol From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Sat Dec 13 23:42:31 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 23:42:31 -0000 Subject: Ten Ways to Royally P*** off Lord Voldemort Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87055 I don't know if this has made the rounds before but I hadn't seen it and thought it was pretty funny. I'm afraid I don't know the source, though. Enjoy! Laura 10. Knit him things. Really hideous things. 9. Call him "The-man-who-let-the-boy-live". 8. Ask why the Dark Mark couldn't look like something "more socially acceptable?" 7. If you ever need to say "Like stealing candy from a baby", be sure to add, "Of course, some of us might find that harder than others." Stare pointedly at him. 6. Say he "looked better under the turban". 5. Begin any question you ask him with "Riddle me this!" Emphasis on Riddle. 4. Mock his baldness. 3. Buy him a stress ball. 2. Tell him constantly to stop repressing his anger. And the number one way to Royally Piss Off Lord Voldemort.... 1. Be Harry Potter. Be alive. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Dec 13 23:44:08 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 23:44:08 -0000 Subject: Use of Madam - Madam Bones In-Reply-To: <004101c3c1c6$f5169890$fcbafea9@Den> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87056 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Greil" wrote: > Lauri said: > > Madam is the female equivalent of Mister, which does not distinguish > between married and unmarried men. ... Madam Pomfrey is not a > Professor, apparently neither is Madam Hooch, so they need *some* > sort of title of respect. > > > Now Amy: > > But Moody, Lockhart, Lupin and Umbridge are called "Professor" once > they begin teaching at Hogwarts, and we have no evidence that they > are the recipient of any kind of teaching degree. So if "Professor" > is simply a title of respect shown to any teacher, shouldn't Hooch, > Hagrid and Firenz also be Professors? bboy_mn: This 'professor' thing is very confusing. When we first discussed it (eons ago), it seemed that only people with academic credentials or at least academic credibility were called 'Professor'. But now it has expanded a bit. Lockhart is a well known authority on a wide range of magic. True he is a fake but a vast majority of people don't know that. He has an Order of Merlin-Third Class and he is a member (honorary) of the Dark Forces League. Plus that author of several authoritative books on various fields of magic. So, these could be the credentials that afford him the respectful title of Professor. On the other hand, Umbridge is called professor. We don't know of any special knowledge or academic expertise, but she certainly holds a high position in the government, so she may have some experience that affords her the authority to be called a professor. We don't really know. You may have missed it, but Hagrid is called professor in OoP. "Quite correct," said Professor Grubbly-Plank, hands behind her back and bouncing on the balls of her feet. "I am a substitute teacher standing in for Professor Hagrid." I think everyone including Hagrid, is so used to and comfortable with just calling Hagrid 'Hagrid' that it gets overlooked. I also don't think that Hagrid has had much confidence in his abilities until recently, so I don't think he really feels like he deserves to be called 'Professor'. But I think as years go by, and he hits his stride, and becomes a more competent teacher, student will gradually start calling him Professor by default. Perhaps, it is routine to call a teacher of an academic subject 'professor' whether they have earned a formal professorship or not. That seems to be the way the story is going. But that does leave a few thinkg unexplained. Professor R. J. Lupin's case has his name and the title 'professor' on it BEFORE he gets to Hogwarts. Of course, he could have earned an academic title of Professor that is independant of his job at Hogwarts. Or it could be his father's old briefcase; Professor Randolf Jerome Lupin. I think that Madam Hooche is NOT called a professor because she does not teach an academic subject; she teaches a skill that is somewhat mechanical. She is like a basketball coach. You don't need any special magic to fly a broom, but you do need some basic functional skills. I guess you could say she is more of an instructor than a teacher. I'm not sure I have a point here other than to agree that it seems like it is routine for students to address teacher of academic subjects as 'professor' even if they don't have a 'sheep skin' to back it up. > Amy continues: > > Since there is apparently no other wizarding school in Britain, and > no evidence for wizard primary schools, it seems silly that there > would be a teacher training program somewhere turning out > "Professors" with limited job prospects. > bboy_mn: Anyone who has been around a while knows my theory on this subject. I believe that it is possible that there are private academic review committees that review research and approve the academic skills and achievements of wizards and witches. For example, the Internation Confederation of Wizards could have an academic review committee that certifies witches and wizards at various skill levels; Professoriate, Doctoriate, Masters, etc.... If one present sufficient published papers on academic study or research to the committee, one could become a Doctor of Tranfiguration. JKR has already said that there are no universities, but I think this model of private review of independant study does have some historical merit. Afteral there is no real overseeing authority that validates muggle Bachelor, Master, PHD degrees in the muggle world. The only thing that gives value to a degree from Harvard is the reputation of the school. So the Harvard review commitees have the sole and full authority to set any standard and give out degrees to anyone they want, and we have no choice but to accept their word for it. > Amy concludes: > > Oh, and then there's Madame Maxine, who IS apparently a teacher and headmistress, but who is addressed by her first name like she is a nursery school teacher! > > I can't figure out if this is just an oversight on JKR's part or an indication of the shoddy nature of education in the WW! > > ---Amy bboy_mn: Madam Maxime is a special case. First Maxime and Dumbledore are contemporaries, they have equal status, so it is unlikely that they would use a school framework of formal address. The first mention of Madam Maxime is by Dumbledore who address her as such. She responds by simple saying, 'Dumbly-dorr'; not professor, or headmaster, or mister. I can't recall if I every heard one of Madam Maxime's students address her, but even it the refer to her as Madam, that may be a cultural thing. They are operating under the rule of a culture differant that Hogwarts. Again, not sure I had a real solid point to make, just adding some more logs to the fire. bboy_mn From blackgold101 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 14 00:06:58 2003 From: blackgold101 at yahoo.com (Marci) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 00:06:58 -0000 Subject: Speculations for year 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87057 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "WOLFIESMOM98" wrote: > Hi folks I've been a member for a while but this is my first post. > It is just things I hope will happen in year 6 > > 1. Harry is rescued from the Dursleys early in the summer so he can > spend his Birthday with the Weasleys and have a real birthday party. > > 2. He passed all his owls. Astronomy will be tested again bcause > everyone was distracted. Hermione of course got number 1 scores. > > 3. Krum comes to visit Hermione and she breaks up with him in front > of Ron. > > 4. Neville learns that he actually has more power than he thinks and > just needs confidence. > > Thinking of these things makes the time go faster as I wait for the > next book. ME: I am working on collecting predictions for book 6 from fans and posting them on my group Potter site. If you'd like to add yours (short versions if you can), send them to adulthpfanatics at yahoo.com. You can see them at http://www.geocities.com/adulthpfanatics/HPyear6.html and http://www.geocities.com/adulthpfanatics/2HPyear6.html Happy reading, Marci From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Sun Dec 14 01:42:39 2003 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 01:42:39 -0000 Subject: Snape and Krum -Relatives? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87058 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" Message 87048 wrote: > Krum and Snape are both described as being thin, dark and sallow- > skinned with large hooked/curved noses and black, prominent eyes. > They're both distinctly round-shouldered (the juvenile version of > Snape), and both are described looking like overgrown winged > creatures; one as a bat and the other as a bird of prey. Snape is > described as walking in a twitching manner; Krum is duck-footed and > also walking awkwardly. Both have a grumpy and surly look about them; > keeping to themselves, being moody and not too talkative; scowling, > contracting their eyebrows etc. What Snape doesn't seem to have, are > Krum's thick eyebrows, and Krum's hair doesn't seem to be greasy. But > other than that the two are described very similarly, aren't they, > both when it comes to physical appearance and personality. > > Anyone thinks this is significant; that they might be related > somehow? I'm not saying Krum is Snape's son (I don't think so), just > that they might be related; purely based on Rowling's description of > them. I'm sorry if this topic has been dealt with earlier on this > forum; I tried to search for anything on the subject, but couldn't > find any... "K": It's been discussed before but I guess I'm one of the few who think Snape and Krum are very similiar. Actually Krum and Harry have something in common and that is their ability to fly. They both seem to have a natural ability for it. As you said, Snape and Krum have some things in common. Krum is described as grouchy, grumpy, surly, brooding, moody. That would describe Snape also. They are both very thin. Both have dark hair, large noses, and swallow skin. Both have a father with a hooked nose. They both like to stand in a corner or in the background or in shadows. And...they are both round-shouldered. Krum is described at least three times in GoF as being round-shouldered and then in OoP we are told for the first time that a teenage Snape was round- shouldered. Neither Krum nor Snape seem to be bothered by the cold. The dungeon where Snape teaches is cold and Krum swims in freezing cold water. Yet there are some difference between Snape and Krum. Krum is described as tall but the only thing we know about Snape's height is that he was considerably shorter than Sirius. No where is Snape mentioned as being tall. Krum is also a natural on a broom whereas it appears that a young Snape had trouble. Let me just give some examples that I've had forever. GoF/pg 63/Ch 5/US Bulgaria has got Viktor Krum, though.. Pg 83/Ch 7/ Viktor Krum, the Bulgarian Seeker. Pg 109/Ch 8/ ...a *large curved nose* and thick black eyebrows. Pg 443/Ch 24 He was *very skinny* indeed...he's mad, said Harry, staring at Krum's *dark* head as it bobbed out into the middle of the lake. "It must be freezing, it's January!" Pg 115/Ch 8/ Harry noticed that he (Krum) seemed much less coordinated on the ground. He was slightly *duck footed* and distinctly *round-shouldered*. Pg 127/Ch 9/ Like the real Krum, the model was *slightly duck-footed* and *round-shouldered*, much less impressive on his splayed feet than on his broomstick. Pg 309/Ch 18/ Viktor Krum got up and *slouched*, *round-shouldered* and duck-footed*... Pg 552/Ch 28 But Krum glowered at him, and Harry, somehow struck anew by how tall Krum was... Pg 269/Ch 16 Harry saw Viktor Krum rise from the Slytherin table and *slouch* up toward Dumbledore... Pg 273/Ch 17 Krum, *hunched-up* and *brooding*... Pg 275/Ch 17 Viktor Krum straightened up. His *surly* face darkened... Pg 105/Ch 8 "He looks really *grumpy*," said Hermione. Pg 349/Ch 20 Viktor Krum looked even *surlier* than usual which Harry supposed was his way of showing nerves. Pg 423/Ch 23 Krum was looking *surly* again. Pg 302/Ch 18 Viktor Krum was standing *moodily* in a *corner* as usual and not talking to anybody. Pg 615/Ch 21 Viktor Krum was in a *corner*, conversing with his *dark haired* mother and father in rapid Bulgarian. He had inherited his father's *hooked nose*. OoP/pg 461/Ch 21/ "Yeah, but apart from that," said Ron, sounding aggravated. "I mean he's a *grouchy* git, isn't he?" Bit *grouchy*, yeah," said Harry... We all know about Snape but I'll throw in a few things anyway: SS/126/Ch 7 ...greasy *black hair*, a *hooked nose*, and *sallow skinned*. GoF/pg 516/Ch 27 "Don't lie to me," Snaped hissed, his fathomless *black eyes* boring into Harry's. OoP/643/Ch 28 (Sch) *Round shouldered*, yet angular, he walked in a *twitchy manner* that recalled a spider, his oily hair swinging about his face. (I believe this is the first time Snape is mentioned as being round-shouldered). OoP/647/Ch 28 Snape was hanging upside down in the air, his robes falling over his head to reveal *skinny*, pallid legs... OoP/592/ch 26 ...a *hook-nosed man* was shouting at a cowering woman, while a small *dark-haired* boy cried in a corner... I do believe there is something to Krum being from Bulgaria but I won't get into that right now. Instead let's look at Durmstrang. What type of school is Durmstrang? What is it known for? It's known for the Dark Arts. GoF/Pg 165/Ch 11/ ...and Durmstrang doesn't admit that sort of riffraff. But Mother didn't like the idea of me going to school so far away. Father says Durmstrang takes a far more sensible line than Hogwarts about the Dark Arts. Durmstrang students actually learn them... Pg 166/Ch 11/ "Yes," said Hermione sniffily, "and it's got a horrible reputation. According to An appraisal of Magical Education in Europe, it puts a lot of emphasis on the Dark Arts. Pg 167/Ch 11/ "But I think Durmstrang must be somewhere in the far north," said Hermione thoughtfully. Pg 417/ch 23/ "Vell, ve have a castle also, not as big as this....the fires are lit only for magical purposes...though in vinter, ve have very little daylight...But in the summer ve are flying every day, over the lakes and the mountains... Durmstrang students: GoF/Pg 249/ch 16/ Viktor Krum and his fellow Durmstrang students had settled themselves at the Slytherin table. Dark Arts: Snape and his interest in the Dark Arts: GoF/pg 531/ch 27/ Snape's always been fascinated by the Dark Arts, he was famous for it at school. OoP/Pg 670/Ch 29/ And Snape was just the little oddball who was up to his eyes in the Dark Arts... Pg 363/Ch 17 "You applied first for the Defense Against the Dark Arts post, I believe?" Pg 364/Ch 17/ "and you have applied regularly for the Defense Against the Dark Arts post since you first joined the school, I believe?" Krum goes to a school known for the Dark Arts and Snape has always been interested in the Dark Arts. There just seems to be some connection between Snape and Krum. Now for Harry and Krum: FLYING: GoF/Pg 109 Harry had never seen anyone fly like that; Krum hardly looked as though he was using a broomstick at all; he moved so easily through the air that he looked unsupported and weightless. Pg 417/Ch 23/ But in summer ve are flying every day, over the lakes and the mountains... Harry also has an uncanny flying ability. PS/151/US McGonagall: "The boy's a natural. I've never seen anything like it. GoF/354/Ch 20/ "Great Scott, he can fly! yelled Bagman as the crowd shrieked and gasped. "Are you watching this Mr. Krum?" Pg 553/Ch 28/ Krum, "You fly very vell. I vos votching at the first task." Well, I just think there's more to Krum and the area he is from. I'm anxious to see him again. "K" From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Sun Dec 14 02:01:56 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 15:01:56 +1300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and Krum -Relatives? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031214144607.00a6a100@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 87059 At 01:42 14/12/2003 +0000, you wrote: >"K" wrote > >It's been discussed before but I guess I'm one of the few who think >Snape and Krum are very similiar. Actually Krum and Harry have >something in common and that is their ability to fly. They both seem >to have a natural ability for it. > >As you said, Snape and Krum have some things in common. Krum is >described as grouchy, grumpy, surly, brooding, moody. That would >describe Snape also. They are both very thin. Both have dark hair, >large noses, and swallow skin. Both have a father with a hooked nose. >They both like to stand in a corner or in the background or in >shadows. And...they are both round-shouldered. Krum is described at >least three times in GoF as being round-shouldered and then in OoP we >are told for the first time that a teenage Snape was round- >shouldered. Neither Krum nor Snape seem to be bothered by the cold. >The dungeon where Snape teaches is cold and Krum swims in freezing >cold water. > >Yet there are some difference between Snape and Krum. Krum is >described as tall but the only thing we know about Snape's height is >that he was considerably shorter than Sirius. No where is Snape >mentioned as being tall. Krum is also a natural on a broom whereas it >appears that a young Snape had trouble. > >Well, I just think there's more to Krum and the area he is from. I'm >anxious to see him again. > >"K" Tanya here. Interesting comparisons. I snipped all of the quotes. Not thought of this in a connection with them both, but the character is a close match. I must go back and read more descriptions of the Drumstrang students to see if that appearance is common in the area they are from. Could be traits from an extended family. However, with Draco saying his father wanted to send him to Drumstrang. Why would Severus be sent down to Hogwarts? All I can say is this post made me think of my fanfic of Severus' early life, and the comparison are interesting in that effect also. Tanya From catlady at wicca.net Sun Dec 14 04:30:08 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 04:30:08 -0000 Subject: Harry Lives With / The Fountain of Magical Brethren / The Hanged Man Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87060 Martha fakeplastiKcynic wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/86709 : << contemplating writing a book called "Harry lives with Sirius and Remus" ;-) >> "Harry Has Two Godfathers" at http://azkabanslair.slashcity.org/HarryHasTwoGodfathers.htm or http://www.angelfire.com/ma/Marcelle1/2godfathers.html or http://legato_bluesummers.tripod.com/fanfics/two_godfathers.htm or a whole mess of other archives (I Googled for it) steve bboy_mn wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/86784 : << I think the significance [of the centaur, goblin, and House Elf statues in the fountain] is that these are the only intelligent sentient humanoid creatures in the wizard world. >> There are other intelligent sentient creatures at least as humanoid as Centaurs: merpeople, Veelas, hags, giants, maybe vampires, depending what vampires are in the Potterverse. I think the statue refers to some historical event when a specific wizard, witch, centaur, goblin, and House Elf worked together to solve some major crisis, and that it foreshadows that the solution to Voldemort will require the same cast of characters: JKR has already set up plenty of wizards and witches (Harry, Ron, Neville, Hermione, Luna, Ginny), Dobby the House Elf, and Firenze the centaur. I assume that Book 6 will introduce a goblin ally via Bill's Gringotts connection. Maybe JKR will set it so that the previous solution was only temporary because the wizarding folk seized power over the magical non-humans, such as outlawing them from using wands -- if the problem came back and Voldemort is the problem, that correlates with the previously posted theory that Salazar Slytherin's evil soul takes over the body or at least corrupts the soul of, like, y'know, one wizard per century, who thus becomes a Dark Lord (Grindelwald, Voldemort, etc). Maybe she means to finagle it so the new solution is permanent (Salazar Slytherin's soul passes on) because the wizarding folk acknowledge, legislate, and respect the equal rights of non-human people. But it will be hard to show Dobby, Firenze, and Goblin X as the saviors being admired by the wizards and witches, when the Prophecy has set up that it will be a wizard, Harry or Neville, who deals with Voldemort. Angel Moules wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/86828 : << "The Hanged Man" suggests to me that the area might have been part of the 19th Century riots that gripped the countryside as farming was mordernised (c.f. Ulverton, by Adam Thorpe). It suggests a particular hanging, perhaps one where the locals were in sympathy with the criminal rather than the victim. >> I thought "The Hanged Man" was just a pun on HANGleton, and perhaps a reference to a Tarot card. From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Dec 14 07:49:09 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 07:49:09 -0000 Subject: The Hanged Man In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87061 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: Catlady: > << "The Hanged Man" suggests to me that the area might have been part > of the 19th Century riots that gripped the countryside as farming was > mordernised (c.f. Ulverton, by Adam Thorpe). It suggests a particular > hanging, perhaps one where the locals were in sympathy with the > criminal rather than the victim. >> Geoff: In 86872, I previously made a passing reference to the 1685 Monmouth Rebellion, which saw a lot of executions in the West Country, which just /might/ place the Riddle house in that area. From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Sun Dec 14 09:40:02 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 22:40:02 +1300 Subject: How much does Dumbledore know. Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031214223521.00a811e0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 87062 Was reading GOF again the other day, and this bit of information jumped out at me. Dumbledore had rescued Harry from Moody fake, and was ordering the others round. Before he knew who the fake was, he had Winky sent for, while they waited for the polyjuice to wear off. That has me wondering, just how lucky a guess was that. Any thoughts? Tanya From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Sun Dec 14 11:10:51 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 11:10:51 -0000 Subject: The Rare Cloaks -GoF detail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87063 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Diana" > wrote: > > Diana: > > And Moody has had THREE cloaks that we know of. The "good" cloak > > was captured with Podmore outside the DoM. (OoP) The 'inferior' > > cloak was still being used by the order. (OoP) And the third cloak > > was buried over the transfigured dead body of Barty Crouch Sr. in > > the forest outside Hogwarts. (GoF) > > Geoff: > I think there is a misunderstanding or a misreading of GOF here. > > "'When everyone was gone, I transfigured my father's body. He became > a bone.... I buried it, while wearing the Invisibility Cloak, in the > freshly dug earth in front of Hagrid's cabin.'" > > (GOF "Veritaserum" p.599 UK edition) > > Crouch/Moody was wearing the cloak himself. He wouldn't need to hide > a bone in an Invisibility Cloak..... > > Geoff Diana L.: After your post, Geoff, I reread the passage and was astounded to see a different meaning after reading it so many times. I had always read it as the body (in the form a bone) was wearing the invisibility cloak. LOL Always something new when reading it yet again.... I think I was thrown off the by the earlier reference where Barty! Moody says "Carried [the body] into the forset. Covered it with the Invisibility Cloak. I had the map with me. I watched Potter run into the castle...." For whatever silly reason, I'd read it as he'd just left the cloak on the bone!body and buried it. So one of Moody's cloaks was covering Barty Crouch Sr.'s body in GoF. I wonder if you can dry clean an invisibility cloak? Diana L. Diana L. From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Sun Dec 14 11:51:36 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 11:51:36 -0000 Subject: How much does Dumbledore know. In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20031214223521.00a811e0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87064 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tanya Swaine wrote: > Was reading GOF again the other day, and this bit of information jumped out > at me. > Dumbledore had rescued Harry from Moody fake, and was ordering the others > round. > Before he knew who the fake was, he had Winky sent for, while they waited > for the > polyjuice to wear off. That has me wondering, just how lucky a guess was that. > > Any thoughts? > > Tanya Diana replies: Since Dumbledore didn't hear what Crouch Sr. said, here's what Harry told Dumbledore Crouch Sr. said: "Said he wants to warn you...said he's done something terrible...he mentioned his son...and Bertha Jorkins...and - and Voldemort...something about Voldemort getting stronger...." Dumbledore knew that that was not Alastor Moody as soon as Moody took Harry away from the outside of the maze, so he began to speculate who it really was. All he knew for sure was that the impersonator must have put Harry's name in the Goblet of Fire and had just attempted to kill Harry. From the time it took him to leave the Diggorys and go to Harry's aid in the castle, he put all the pieces together. He probably started thinking about his memories of Crouch Jr.s trial and specifically the reaction of Crouch's wife as their son was condemned to Azkaban. He'd recall the fact that Crouch Sr.s wife died a very private death a very short time after their son died in prison So he pieced that together with what Crouch Sr. had said, especially about mentioning his son, who Dumbledore remembers Crouch publicly declaring NOT his son. Then he also considered the strange "papery-thin" appearance of Crouch Sr. and his odd behavior at Hogwarts and his just as sudden disappearance from work and his mysterious illness. Dumbledore would probably conclude that Crouch Sr.'s behavior tallies with someone under the Imperious Curse. He'd also figure that Crouch Sr. wouldn't say some unknown DE taking him over with the Imperious was his own fault and so concluded that it must be someone close to Crouch, like his wife or son. Dumbledore is obviously incredibly good with remembering small details and putting them together to get the big picture when he has all the pieces identified and patterns figured out. He is Sherlock Holmes of the wizarding world. Diana L. From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Sun Dec 14 12:23:21 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 12:23:21 -0000 Subject: Traitors - Analysis of Percy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87065 > wrote: > > I read here that maybe Bill is a would-be traitor. I felt quite > > desmayed about that possibility and I hope it won't prove true. As > > for Percy, and considering his attitudes in Phoenix, he might just > as > > well be, but I also read in the HP Lexicon that he is probably > > working undecover for the Order and that sounds much more > interesting > > and "twisty". I don't see a reason for the compulsory existence of > a > > traitor in the Weasley family!> > > Sophierom replied: > > I also hope that Bill and Percy are not traitors. I've been > wondering how we could possibly predict who the next traitor will > be, if there is one. And here's what I've come up with (if > someone's already said this before, sorry for the repeat): Diana L. writes: I actually don't see Percy as ESE or as a spy working for Dumbledore. I see him as an extremely ambitious, power-hungry fool willing to lick Fudge's boots for the chance of advancement in his work. Those traits don't make him ESE, just a person who's made foolish choices - and there are plenty of them in the real world, too. And those traits wouldn't have put him in Slytherin, either. As another poster pointed out (sorry, don't remember who or the post number), Percy stuck to his beliefs, however misguided, moved out of his parents house and cut ties with his parents and siblings to pursue what he really wanted. That took bravery, just not the kind of bravery we're used to seeing or respecting in other characters. Percy strives to *be* someone *important* with a respected office, fancy title and salary to go with it. Like Ron, all his school things were probably second-hand, except for Hermes and some rewards from Mum for becoming school prefect and head boy. But unlike his brothers and parents, somewhere along the way or maybe even from the beginning, Percy's sense of what true success and achievement were became skewed. He became convinced that he could only find his worth in outward achievements and acted accordingly. If his status at the MoM would be adversely affected by being a Weasley, he simply ceased to be a Weasley. This disturbing attitude was evidenced as already in progress by his allowing Crouch Sr. to call him Weatherby throughout GoF. Percy is not a very deep person. He is very shallow and finds his worth by examining other's opinions of him. He let his mom's lavish attention go to his head, which wasn't Molly's fault as I'm sure she did the same for Bill & Charlie, but they didn't end up like Percy. The descriptions for his actions in GoF speak volumes with words like "pompous", "formal", "importantly", "puffed-up". Percy is just the way he is, with no nifty back history likely to be put forth by JKR detailing what exactly made him that way. He probably just *is* that way. As for how Percy handles the revelation of Dumbledore, Harry and his family being right all along and Fudge being the fool will be a test of how shallow he is or how much he is capable of learning. Percy could learn from his errors and grow into a better person. He could also not learn a thing and continue to chase after power (remember the book "Prefects Who Gained Power"?) until he ends up alone and unwanted by the Weasleys (except for Molly, probably). Where and when Rowling decides to end the lesson that is Percy is anyone's guess at this point. I can't see Bill or Charlie as traitors and/or ESE because I don't think the Wealeys would survive another split ala Percy without some serious heartbreak for Molly and Arthur. Diana L. From thren at subreality.com Sun Dec 14 00:12:32 2003 From: thren at subreality.com (Thren) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 19:12:32 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Use of Madam - Madam Bones In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FDBAAF0.1030302@subreality.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87066 >bboy_mn: > >I can't recall if I every heard one of Madam Maxime's students address >her, but even it the refer to her as Madam, that may be a cultural >thing. They are operating under the rule of a culture differant that >Hogwarts. > Thren: She's not 'madam', she's 'Madame'. There's a difference. There's no distinction between 'Mrs' and 'madam' in French- Madame fulfills both functions (to the best of my knowledge). I get called 'madame' in shops about as often as I get called 'mademoiselle' (Miss). Unless you're obviously very young (teenish or little girls), you're madame. In my experience. Also, as far as I know there's no equivalent of 'headmaster/headmistress' in French. You have a directeur or directrice, but that's more of a title to put below your name or on your door than something to be addressed as. Old French might have something like it, but I'm not so well schooled in that area, and it would be a rather obscure thing to research for a book that's taking place in the 90s, even if the schools are old fashioned. Madame Maxime is a perfectly suitable thing for her students (and everyone else) to call her. From lovefromhermione at yahoo.com Sun Dec 14 06:34:22 2003 From: lovefromhermione at yahoo.com (lovefromhermione at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 22:34:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Page 519 - Missing Paragraph In-Reply-To: <78.4c210f44.2d052b76@aol.com> Message-ID: <20031214063422.72037.qmail@web40203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87067 Sherrie said: According to Mugglenet.com, the paragraph missing from the UK audiobook is: 'Harry was so angry with her he didn't talk to her for the rest of the day, which proved to be another bad one. When people were not discussing the escaped Death Eaters in the corridors, they were laughing at Gryffindor's abysmal performance in their match against Hufflepuff; the Slytherins were singing "Weasley is our king" so loudly and frequently that by sundown Filch had banned it out of the corridors out of sheer irritation.' Apparently, this deletion was at the request of JKR - why, I've no more clue than you. Either there's an error in it - or there's something in it that, maybe, gives more away than she intended... Julie: I thought this paragraph was out of place for the very boring reason that Harry had been a hero the day before because of the Quibbler article coming out. I didn't think his sudden rose-colored spotlight would have faded so quickly to have a day as bad as that. I can see why it was altered. Ju __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ From belijako at online.no Sun Dec 14 12:45:19 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 12:45:19 -0000 Subject: Snape and Krum -Relatives? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87068 Koinonia02 wrote: > > Yet there are some difference between Snape and Krum. Krum is > described as tall but the only thing we know about Snape's height is > that he was considerably shorter than Sirius. No where is Snape > mentioned as being tall. Berit replies: Thanks 'K'! Very interesting reply. I'm probably mistaken, but I thought Snape has been described as "tall and thin" several times in the HP books? Or have I just imagined it? I've always thought of him as tall the way McGonagall is tall, though maybe not as tall as Sirius (or Dumbledore)... Berit From aldhelm at earthlink.net Sat Dec 13 21:48:27 2003 From: aldhelm at earthlink.net (carin_in_oh) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 21:48:27 -0000 Subject: Mugglenet thread on Percy; was Re: Traitors In-Reply-To: <006801c3c193$f064b170$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87069 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mom31" wrote: > Has anyone here seen the theory on Mugglenet that Percy is OotP is really Wormtail in polyjuice fashion half the time and under the Imperius curse the other half? I thought it was quite interesting. > I managed to read selectively through the thread and found a lot of it interesting and some of it persuasive, but I haven't had a chance to go back to OotP to test the theory for myself. On the whole, I find Percy's behavior and the circumstantial evidence more persuasive than the "find-the-word"-type textual clues they're pursuing over on Mugglenet, but I'm keeping my mind open. I'd love to hear more discussion here from those who have followed the MN discussion. The thread is here btw: http://newclues.mugglenet.com/ viewtopic.php?t=169&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 and a summary is here: http://mugglenet.com/wwp/subplot-percy.shtml Carin (Who does admit that JKR is fond of silly puns as clues. Ever notice how many times the word "seriously" is used in relation to Harry's Firebolt in POA?) From amyg at babes-in-arms.com Sat Dec 13 23:06:12 2003 From: amyg at babes-in-arms.com (Amy Greil) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 18:06:12 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Use of Madam - Madam Bones References: <158.29a5f170.2d0cf0be@aol.com> Message-ID: <005501c3c1cd$b4540ed0$fcbafea9@Den> No: HPFGUIDX 87070 I (Amy) said: Oh, and then there's Madame Maxine, who IS apparently a teacher and headmistress, but who is addressed by her first name like she is a nursery school teacher! Then Sherrie said: Actually, Madam Maxime is addressed by her LAST name - her first name is Olympe. Additionally, she's French... To which I reply: D'oh! That'll teach me to write a post w/out checking the books...but my point, I think, still stands. There is an inconsistancy in address of professionals in the WW. ----Amy who kinda likes the image of MM as a nursery school teacher :) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gingernewt at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 14 11:53:23 2003 From: gingernewt at yahoo.co.uk (gingernewt) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 11:53:23 -0000 Subject: How much does Dumbledore know. In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20031214223521.00a811e0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87071 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tanya Swaine wrote: > Was reading GOF again the other day, and this bit of information jumped out > at me. > Dumbledore had rescued Harry from Moody fake, and was ordering the others > round. > Before he knew who the fake was, he had Winky sent for, while they waited > for the > polyjuice to wear off. That has me wondering, just how lucky a guess was that. > > Any thoughts? Hi Tanya ... IMHO, I don't think it was a lucky guess - remember Dumbledore says "The moment he took you, I knew - and I followed". Dumbledore knew Alastor Moody (the real one) really well, like a good friend, and knew that Moody wouldn't have taken Harry out of DD's sight for a moment given the enormity of what had just happened. So he asked Snape to fetch Winky so that he could show the others just how the deception was done when the Polyjuice potion wore off and Barty Crouch was revealed ... Jules (aka gingernewt) From derek at rhinobunny.com Sun Dec 14 14:58:24 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 14:58:24 -0000 Subject: Page 589 (not 519) - Missing Paragraph In-Reply-To: <20031214063422.72037.qmail@web40203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87073 > Sherrie said: > > According to Mugglenet.com, the paragraph missing from > the UK audiobook is: > 'Harry was so angry with her he didn't talk to her for > the rest of the day, which proved to be another bad > one. When people were not discussing the escaped Death > Eaters in the corridors, they were laughing at > Gryffindor's abysmal performance in their match > against Hufflepuff; the Slytherins were singing > "Weasley is our king" so loudly and frequently that by > sundown Filch had banned it out of the corridors out > of sheer irritation.' > > Julie: > I thought this paragraph was out of place for the very > boring reason that Harry had been a hero the day > before because of the Quibbler article coming out. I > didn't think his sudden rose-colored spotlight would > have faded so quickly to have a day as bad as that. I > can see why it was altered. Derek: It may be also be due in part to ambiguity JKR wished to remove. The second sentence could be taken to mean that the escaped Death Eaters were in the corridors of Hogwarts! :) Also, the whole second sentence is rather convoluted and awkward by JKR's usual standards, using the word "corridors" twice, and so on. Lastly, if *Arthur* Weasley and his family are indeed going to be revealed as wizarding royalty as some point (as I suspect), and the whole "Weasley is our king" business is foreshadowing, perhaps JKR felt she'd done too much of it and wanted to scale it back a bit. (FYI, the missing paragraph is actually on page 589, at least in my U.S. edition copy, rather than page 519.) - Derek From derek at rhinobunny.com Sun Dec 14 14:13:13 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 06:13:13 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Page 589 (not 519) - Missing Paragraph In-Reply-To: <20031214063422.72037.qmail@web40203.mail.yahoo.com> References: <78.4c210f44.2d052b76@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031214045753.025d6260@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87074 >Sherrie said: >'Harry was so angry with her he didn't talk to her for >the rest of the day, which proved to be another bad >one. When people were not discussing the escaped Death >Eaters in the corridors today, they were laughing at >Gryffindor's abysmal performance in their match >against Hufflepuff; the Slytherins were singing >"Weasley is our king" so loudly and frequently that by >sundown Filch had banned it from the corridors out >of sheer irritation.' > >Julie: >I thought this paragraph was out of place for the very >boring reason that Harry had been a hero the day >before because of the Quibbler article coming out. I >didn't think his sudden rose-colored spotlight would >have faded so quickly to have a day as bad as that. I >can see why it was altered. Derek: It may be also be due in part to ambiguity JKR wished to remove. The second sentence could be taken to mean that the escaped Death Eaters were in the corridors of Hogwarts! :) Also, the whole second sentence is rather convoluted and awkward by JKR's usual standards, using the word "corridors" twice, and so on. Lastly, if *Arthur* Weasley and his family are indeed going to be revealed as wizarding royalty as some point (as I suspect), and the whole "Weasley is our king" business is foreshadowing, perhaps JKR felt she'd done too much of it and wanted to scale it back a bit. (FYI, the missing paragraph is actually on page 589, at least in my U.S. edition copy, rather than page 519.) - Derek From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Dec 14 15:38:55 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 15:38:55 -0000 Subject: Use of Madam -" Madame" -Slight OT In-Reply-To: <3FDBAAF0.1030302@subreality.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87075 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Thren wrote: > Thren: > > She's not 'madam', she's 'Madame'. There's a difference. There's no > distinction between 'Mrs' and 'madam' in French- Madame fulfills both > functions (to the best of my knowledge). I get called 'madame' in > shops about as often as I get called 'mademoiselle' (Miss). bboy_mn: Just curious, how do the French pronounce 'Madame'? Medame - very short 'E' sound on the first 'A', long 'A', silent 'E'. Almost like saying 'my dame' implying 'my lady'. Mademeeee - with significant pronounciation of the last long 'E' Mademaaaa - common pronunciation with last 'E' taking on a soft 'A' sound MaaaaDaaaam - heavy on the somewhat short 'A's. Madaaaam - short first 'A', long second 'A', no pronunciation of last 'E'. Madem - common American with a slighly blunted second 'A', which would be the same as Madam. Medam - very short 'E' sound on the first 'A', last 'A' as in the common pronunciation of 'dam', last 'E' is silent. I know it's difficult to infer pronuncitation without inflection characters (long & short vowels, etc...). OTHER? Just curious. bboy_mn From meriaugust at yahoo.com Sun Dec 14 15:46:26 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 15:46:26 -0000 Subject: Ten Ways to Royally P*** off Lord Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87076 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > I don't know if this has made the rounds before but I hadn't seen it > and thought it was pretty funny. I'm afraid I don't know the > source, though. > > Enjoy! > > Laura > > 10. Knit him things. Really hideous things. > 9. Call him "The-man-who-let-the-boy-live". > 8. Ask why the Dark Mark couldn't look like something "more socially > acceptable?" > 7. If you ever need to say "Like stealing candy from a baby", be > sure to add, "Of course, some of us might find that harder than > others." Stare pointedly at him. > 6. Say he "looked better under the turban". > 5. Begin any question you ask him with "Riddle me this!" Emphasis on > Riddle. > 4. Mock his baldness. > 3. Buy him a stress ball. > 2. Tell him constantly to stop repressing his anger. > And the number one way to Royally Piss Off Lord Voldemort.... > 1. Be Harry Potter. Be alive. I didn't write this (and boy do I wish I did it's so cool) but there is a whole list of these (101 Ways To Annoy LV) posted on mugglenet.com, and some of the others are even funnier. Meri From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Dec 14 16:02:16 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 14 Dec 2003 16:02:16 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1071417736.40.74431.m20@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87077 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, December 14, 2003 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CST (GMT-06:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. *Chat times are not changing for Daylight Saving/Summer Time.* Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 14 15:24:43 2003 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 15:24:43 -0000 Subject: The Kacky Snorgle Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87078 Melissa wrote "I don't remember who interupts her (Luna) that time... It was actually Hermione, yet again. This interests me for two reasons - firstly, because I believe Luna was going to say something really interesting about what was behind the locked door in the MOM but for the moment JKR prefers not to allow her to say it. Secondly, I find this rudeness on Hermione's part out of character. I don't recollect her being so offensively dismissive of anyone else's opinions, at least among her own peers. I would suggest that she is jealous of Luna and I would further suggest not without cause. Sylvia (who thinks that, ultimately, Luna is the person Harry needs) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Dec 14 17:03:48 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:03:48 -0000 Subject: Missing Paragraph - Re-write & Weasley King In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87079 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Derek Hiemforth" wrote: > > Sherrie said: > > > > According to Mugglenet.com, the paragraph missing from the UK > > audiobook is: > > 'Harry was so angry with her he didn't talk to her for the rest of > > the day, which proved to be another bad one. When people were not > > ....edited.... > > > > Julie: > > I thought this paragraph was out of place for the very boring > > reason that Harry had been a hero the day before ...edited... > > Derek: > It may be also be due in part to ambiguity JKR wished to remove. > The second sentence could be taken to mean that the escaped > Death Eaters were in the corridors of Hogwarts! :) Also, the > whole second sentence is rather convoluted and awkward by JKR's > usual standards, using the word "corridors" twice, and so on. bboy_mn: I understand your point, but a re-write would have been extremely easy. Here is my re-write with changes emphasized- "Harry was so angry with her he did not talk to her for the rest of the day, which proved to be another bad one. When people IN THE CORRIDORS were not discussing the escaped Death Eaters, they were laughing at Gryffindor's abysmal performance in their match against Hufflepuff; the Slytherins were singing 'Weasley is our King' so loudly and frequently that BY SUNDOWN Filch, OUT OF SHEER IRRITATION, had banned it from the HALLWAYS." > Derek continues: > Lastly, if *Arthur* Weasley and his family are indeed going to be > revealed as wizarding royalty as some point (as I suspect), and > the whole "Weasley is our king" business is foreshadowing, perhaps > JKR felt she'd done too much of it and wanted to scale it back a > bit. > > (FYI, the missing paragraph is actually on page 589, at least in > my U.S. edition copy, rather than page 519.) > > - Derek bboy_mn: Have have my doubts about the Weasley's being revealed as 'wizarding royalty'. I have to believe that if they were related to some elite group in wizarding society, they would know it, and probably not care. However, I do think that before this is all over, the Weasley will have gained a great deal of status and respect in the wizarding world. I think that independant of possible aristocratic lineage, they will have proven that they are indeed the best of the best; the very best the wizarding world has to offer. Of couse, that doesn't discount the possibility of some unforseen ancestral relationship being revealed. I speculate that the Weasleys could inherit part of the Black estate; either money or the house. Naturally, this would only work if Sirius had the foresight to leave a will. I do honestly believe that Sirius did leave a will. It would have been a way for him to take care of Harry. All that time, locked in the Black house, nothing to do but think, I can easily see his thoughts turning to Harry and Sirius's own uncertain future, and creating a will. A bit to the Weasley's, a bit to Remus, and the bulk to Harry. I expand this by speculating that the Malfoys would certainly contest the Will, since Draco is the nearest living male 'blood' heir. In the end, given the existance of a will, the clearing of Sirius's name, and the fact the Sirius is Harry's legal guardian and Godfather; I contend in the end, the Will will be upheld, and Harry will go from having a fortune to having a big fortune. Alternate scenerio, the bulk of the estate is left to the Weasleys on the condition that they take over as Harry's guardian, provider, and protector. Just a thought. bboy_mn From rredordead at aol.com Sun Dec 14 18:16:23 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 18:16:23 -0000 Subject: Page 589 (not 519) - Missing Paragraph In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87080 > Derek: > It may be also be due in part to ambiguity JKR wished to remove. > The second sentence could be taken to mean that the escaped > Death Eaters were in the corridors of Hogwarts! :) Also, the > whole second sentence is rather convoluted and awkward by JKR's > usual standards, using the word "corridors" twice, and so on. > Lastly, if *Arthur* Weasley and his family are indeed going to be > revealed as wizarding royalty as some point (as I suspect), and > the whole "Weasley is our king" business is foreshadowing, perhaps > JKR felt she'd done too much of it and wanted to scale it back a > bit. > (FYI, the missing paragraph is actually on page 589, at least in > my U.S. edition copy, rather than page 519.) Mandy here: I think it has to do with style of writing. Perhaps the editors made grammatical changes that JKR didn't approve of and somehow the passage slipped into the book. FYI: Page 519 in the British edition. Page 589 in the US edition. Mandy From kcawte at ntlworld.com Mon Dec 15 03:35:38 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:35:38 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Traitors - Analysis of Percy References: Message-ID: <008901c3c2bc$883e99b0$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87081 > > Diana L. writes: > I actually don't see Percy as ESE or as a spy working for > Dumbledore. I see him as an extremely ambitious, power-hungry fool > willing to lick Fudge's boots for the chance of advancement in his > work. .... And those traits wouldn't have put him in Slytherin, either. K Uh, yes they would. Ambition is one of the main traits listed for Slytherins, along with being a pure-blood. So actually he'd fit right in. K *who would like to point out that the requirements for being in Slytherin do not include being an arrogant, Voldemort following prat - it just looks that way sometimes* From lhuntley at fandm.edu Sun Dec 14 20:10:20 2003 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 15:10:20 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why the number of students is ambiguous In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8AF24DD3-2E71-11D8-A524-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 87082 bboy_mn: > > Logic says there would be many more people in Hufflepuff, since is > real life there are far more factory workers and laborers (Hufflepuff) > than their are managers and executives (Ravenclaw). Extenting that > further, there are far more laborers and executives than there are > notable heroes (Gryffindor) and outstandingly rich and successful > businessmen and politicians (Slytherin). > > A far more real life estimated ratio would be 10H:4R:1G:1S which in > turn yields a school population of 1120. (10 laborers: 4 college > students: 1 hero: 1 great success) > > Now, the most obvious question is, how can there be so many more > Hufflepuffs when Harry as classes with Hufflepuffs and there only > appears to be 10 in the class? The answer is Harry has the 'overflow' > Hufflepuffs in his class, and there is another full class of > Hufflepuff students. *Actually*, as another poster pointed out a long, long time ago, according to the four Myers-Briggs personality types (for more info, visit http://keirsey.com/matrix.html . . . there used to be a better site that made Artisans sound much more like Slytherins, but I can't find it anymore), it's Gryffindor and *Ravenclaw* that are rare. Which actually makes much more sense in conjunction with the rest of your theory, as it's Hufflepuff *and* Slytherin* which Gryffindor has classes with (because of the overflow). Gryffindor never doubles up with Ravenclaw because there is never an overflow of students from either house. Laura From lhuntley at fandm.edu Sun Dec 14 20:20:00 2003 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 15:20:00 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Kacky Snorgle In-Reply-To: <004a01c3c136$14b88e60$efd54142@CPQ21816182602> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87083 bboy_mn: > Perhaps Luna and Hermione aren't so much polar opposites as they are > different sides of the same coin. Don't you mean different sides of the same author? ^_~ I definitely got the impression that Luna and Hermione both are authorial inserts. Which, of course, solves the age-old SHIPping conundrum -- that is, is JKR more likely to pair herself with Harry or Ron. Now, she can do both! ^_~ It also explains why they do not get along -- people often have the biggest conflicts with other people who are actually a lot like themselves. (And could I have found a more awkward way to put that?) Melissa: > Being a big Luna fan, I have thought about this quite a bit. Luna is > interrupted twice. First, in the Hog's Head, she is talking about > Fudge's supposed army of Heliopaths. Someone, Neville I think, asks > about this and Hermione immediately starts to challenge the idea that > Heliopaths exist. I believe Luna is about to give evidence, which > would obviously further annoy Hermione and which is not why all of > these people have gathered in the Hog's Head to begin with, when Ginny > interrupts Luna's explanation with her "Hem hem" imitation of > Umbridge. I know it's been stated that often interruptions are > significant. Maybe Ginny interrupts the conversation because *she's* a heliopath!! You know, it ties right in with her red hair and her . . . erm . . . sudden portrayal as a Mary Sue type character. (Heh, sorry, couldn't help myself.) Laura From dekkarireader at yahoo.com Sun Dec 14 02:25:10 2003 From: dekkarireader at yahoo.com (Rose W.) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 18:25:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Regarding Bill In-Reply-To: <005001c3c137$7a29aee0$efd54142@CPQ21816182602> Message-ID: <20031214022510.33220.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87084 Hello! I joined this list a few days ago and have noticed several comments about Bill (will he betray the good side, why is there such an age gap between him and Charlie and the rest of the family). Since both Bill and Charlie seem to have been "skipped" in the movies (they aren't mentioned once, right?) is it likely that they will ever have an extremely significant role? I'm inclined to think not. Rose __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ From thren at subreality.com Sun Dec 14 16:15:10 2003 From: thren at subreality.com (Thren) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 11:15:10 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Use of Madam -" Madame" -Slight OT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FDC8C8E.20506@subreality.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87085 >bboy_mn: > >Just curious, how do the French pronounce 'Madame'? > >Almost like saying 'my dame' implying 'my lady'. Thren: It is 'my lady', all smushed together. The masculine equivalent ('monsieur') is 'my lord'. Interesting, innit? :) Madame is more or less 'madam' with stress on the second syllable. If you pronounce the 'dam' as in 'damn', and not 'dem' or 'dum'. So, ma-DAMN is more like it. Es are never pronounced when at the end of a word. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Dec 14 20:31:57 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 20:31:57 -0000 Subject: Harry Lives With / The Fountain of Magical Brethren / The Hanged Man In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87086 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > Angel Moules wrote in > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/86828 : > > << "The Hanged Man" suggests to me that the area might have been part > of the 19th Century riots that gripped the countryside as farming was > mordernised (c.f. Ulverton, by Adam Thorpe). It suggests a particular > hanging, perhaps one where the locals were in sympathy with the > criminal rather than the victim. >> > Catlady: > > I thought "The Hanged Man" was just a pun on HANGleton, and perhaps a > reference to a Tarot card. bboy_mn: Don't all British pubs have colorfull picturesque names that draw on national, regional, or local history, or legend? Aren't the all things like "The Old Thirteenth Cheshire Astley Volunteer Rifleman Corps Inn" (found that one on the net, it's really a pub), The Red Lion (re: King James of Scotland), The Crossed Keys (re: emblem of St. Peter), etc.... So, I speculate JKR is once again giving us familiar bits of the real world to make the story seem comfortable to us. Just a thought. bboy_mn From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Sun Dec 14 21:33:18 2003 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 21:33:18 -0000 Subject: Snape and Krum -Relatives? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87087 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" wrote: I'm probably mistaken, but I > thought Snape has been described as "tall and thin" several times in > the HP books? Or have I just imagined it? I don't believe Snape has ever been described as being tall. As far as I know OoP is the first time Snape's height is even mentioned. "K" From catlady at wicca.net Mon Dec 15 00:42:47 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 00:42:47 -0000 Subject: Is Krum Short? / Lots about Percy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87088 Koinona wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87058 : << Yet there are some difference between Snape and Krum. Krum is described as tall but the only thing we know about Snape's height is that he was considerably shorter than Sirius. No where is Snape mentioned as being tall. >> I have touble finding any place where Krum is described as tall. He's only in GoF, and I found only two places: When Harry goes into the little room where the other Champions are waiting (chapter 17): "Harry didn't know how to explain what had just happened. He just stood there, looking at the three champions. It struck him how very tall all of them were." When Krum confronts Harry about rivalry over Hermione (chapter 28): "But Krum glowered at him, and Harry, somehow struck anew by how tall Krum was, elaborated. 'We're friends. She's not my girlfriend and she never has been. It's just that Skeeter woman making things up.' (snip) Krum looked slightly happier. He stared at Harry for a few seconds, then said, 'You fly very well. I vos votching at the first task.' 'Thanks,' said Harry, grinning broadly, and suddenly feeling much taller himself." I read both those as expressing Harry's emotion, that he is feeling intimidated about being so much younger than the others. The difference between age 18 and age 14 is fairly significant, so Krum could even be short for his age and still be tall compared to Harry, because Harry was short for his own age at that time (he shoots up between GoF and OoP). My own mental image of Krum is that he is a bit on the short side of normal height, part of being physically unimpressive looking when off his broomstick. Diana wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPfor Grownups/message/87065 : << As another poster pointed out (sorry, don't remember who or the post number), Percy stuck to his beliefs, however misguided, moved out of his parents house and cut ties with his parents and siblings to pursue what he really wanted. That took bravery, just not the kind of bravery we're used to seeing or respecting in other characters. >> Percy walking out on his family for his beliefs is a parallel to Sirius walking out on his family for his beliefs, just as Dobby betraying his owner to help someone he likes better is parallel to Kreachur betraying his owner to help someone he likes better. << But unlike his brothers and parents, somewhere along the way or maybe even from the beginning, Percy's sense of what true success and achievement were became skewed. He became convinced that he could only find his worth in outward achievements and acted accordingly. >> I think he learned it from Molly -- not from her beliefs, look how loyal she is to Arthur despite his lack of career success -- but from her guidance: how much she praised the outward acheivements of her children, especially becoming Prefect, how she wanted them all to get Ministry jobs, and no doubt spoke of how high they could possibly rise there. << He let his mom's lavish attention go to his head, which wasn't Molly's fault as I'm sure she did the same for Bill & Charlie, but they didn't end up like Percy. >> I imagine that Molly was fairly loudly opposed to Bill and Charlie's career choices, and Percy would have overheard every word. At that time, he wasn't yet old enough for Hogwarts, but was old enough to understand what his mother was angry about. << The descriptions for his actions in GoF speak volumes with words like "pompous", "formal", "importantly", "puffed-up". Percy is just the way he is, with no nifty back history likely to be put forth by JKR detailing what exactly made him that way. He probably just *is* that way. >> People on list have discussed how Percy got that way ... starting with, he left his large family to be the only Weasley at Hogwarts, probably he was lonely and homesick there at first, but also he was constantly compared to the memories, somewhat exagerated by passage of time, of Bill the Head Boy and Charlie the great Quidditch Captain ... that's enough to make a child feel insecure ... I fantasize a painful moment when the Gryffindor Quidditch Captain of that year insisted Percy try out for the team, and Percy failed miserably, may even have been laughed at ... so he concentrated on trying to become Prefect and Head Boy, thus the obsession with rules ... Then the twins came to Hogwarts, and they had each other, and popular personalities, and Quidditch talent, and everyone liked them, and they kept teasing Percy. Percy, thin-skinned like me, feels hurt by the teasing, and ... there are posts explaining the vicious cycle, the more they tease, the more strait-laced and pompous he gets, causing them to tease more ... << I can't see Bill or Charlie as traitors and/or ESE because I don't think the Wealeys would survive another split ala Percy without some serious heartbreak for Molly and Arthur. >> JKR is a ruthless author. She won't do anything just to avoid heartbreak for Molly, Arthur, or the readers. From pjcousins at btinternet.com Mon Dec 15 01:09:12 2003 From: pjcousins at btinternet.com (confusinglyso) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 01:09:12 -0000 Subject: The Rare Cloaks( and vanishing spells) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87089 In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Adi" "spang_b" Message #86901 Thur Dec 11,2003 began thread 'The Rare Cloaks' Then "Geoff Bannister" Message #86908 Dec 11,2003 Then "Melissa" "mfisanich" #86933 Dec 11,2003 Then "Steve" "bboy_mn" #86949 Dec 11,2003 Then slight change as "Melissa" "mfisanich" #86996 Dec 12,2003 adds 'The Rare Cloaks( and vanishing spells)' Then "Steve" "bboy_mn" #87020 Dec 13,2003 "mfisanich" wrote: > Finally, Melissa: > > ... This makes me think, ..., then why not just develop a spell > that renders the spellcaster or another person invisible? > bboy_mn: >There is indeed such a charm; Fred and George use an invisibility >charm on their 'joke' hats (Headless Hats). --- Quote - OoP UK Hb pg 477 --- ... Fred and George were demonstrating their latest bit of joke shop merchandise. 'Headless Hats!' shouted George, as Fred waved a pointed hat decorated with a fluffy pink feather at the watching students. .... 'How do those hats work, then?' said Hermione, distracted from her homework and watchng Fred and George closely. 'I mean, obviously it's some kind of Invisibility Spell, but it's rather clever to have extended the field of invisibility beyond the boundaries of the charmed object ... I'd imagine the charm wouldn't have a very long life though.' --- end quote --- >We see the existance of the Invisibility Spell but we also see it's >flaw or shortcoming, it doesn't last very long, and as we see from >Hermione's comment, having the invisibility field extend beyond the >charmed object is quite an unusual accomplishment. end of bboy_mn post (snipped) now "confusinglyso" "Phil": I would like to comment on Hermione's reaction to Fred & George's "Headless Hats". This scene is possibly the only occassion that Hermione reacts positively to any of the twins' behaviour. The original purpose of the Invisibility Cloak (IC) was probably for hiding the wearer in a static position. The Invisibility Cloak has been used by Harry alone and on other occasions by 2 or even 3 of HRH at once. Each time the storyline describes how difficult it is to walk and be sure that one stays covered by the cloak. I am sure that Hermione sees Fred & George's success with the Headless Hats as a means to improving IC usefulness. 1) With a "Headless Hat" the Invisibility Cloak may be able to be worn like a cape, with much improved awareness of your surroundings, since you would be able to stand up properly. 2) Develop "Armless Gloves", i.e. charmed gloves that would make the wearer's arms invisible. Since Hermione thinks the charm may only have a short life (we as readers did not get an answer to her query on the charm's life, JKR diversion :-) ) Hat and Gloves may be all that are practicable, otherwise the cloaks would, long ago, have been replaced by charmed suits. By the same reasoning, "Legless Boots" would be of limited use because the Invisibility Cloak would still have to hide the wearer's feet when the charm wore off. If the Hats and proposed Gloves are viable then Harry could be much more mobile while invisible, standing instead of hunched under the cloak, and with arms free. Can Lord Thingy see through Invisibility Cloaks ? Maybe not, if the wearer is running rings round him. Phil(istine) From pjcousins at btinternet.com Mon Dec 15 01:21:06 2003 From: pjcousins at btinternet.com (confusinglyso) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 01:21:06 -0000 Subject: The Rare Cloaks( and vanishing spells) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87090 I omitted from my post #87089 that the charm on the "Headless Hat" and "Armless Gloves" would need to last for say 5 minutes to be worth attempting a skirmish with Lord Voldemort. Phil From hieya at hotmail.com Mon Dec 15 02:22:04 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 02:22:04 -0000 Subject: How much does Dumbledore know. In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20031214223521.00a811e0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87091 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tanya Swaine wrote: > Was reading GOF again the other day, and this bit of information jumped out > at me. > Dumbledore had rescued Harry from Moody fake, and was ordering the others > round. > Before he knew who the fake was, he had Winky sent for, while they waited > for the > polyjuice to wear off. That has me wondering, just how lucky a guess was that. > > Any thoughts? > > Tanya Dumbledore knew that something odd had happened to Mr. Crouch, who mysteriously disappeared into the forest shortly after Harry saw him. Winky the house-elf was also behaving strangely. Once, when the kids were in the kitchen, Winky mentioned that she was a good house- elf who kept her master's secrets, especially one very important secret. Of course, the kids didn't know what she was talking about, but DD may have heard her talk like that as well at some point, and he probably suspected that she knew more than what she was letting on. Even if the fake Moody wasn't Crouch Jr., DD would still want to talk to Winky. Only he didn't need to question her after Crouch confessed. When I first read GoF, I thought that DD wanted Winky to hear everything so that she could see what kind of people she had served. Winky was horrified and hopefully repulsed by the behavior of her former master, and perhaps that will help her get over the past and move on with her life. She didn't make much progress in OoP, according to Dobby, but maybe in the future she will. greatlit2003 looking forward to meeting the other A. Dumbledore From travellerrose at yahoo.com Sun Dec 14 22:54:29 2003 From: travellerrose at yahoo.com (travellerrose) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 22:54:29 -0000 Subject: HP and the democratic equilibrium(Re: Umbridge, brooms and DEs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87092 Iris wrote: > For example, refusing to speak Voldemort's name, ita est, > to call him what he really is, is as dangerous as working for him. > I'd better say: IT IS working for him. Using euphemisms such as "He > Who Must Not Be Named" or "You Know Who" can lead to believe that > he is not that terrible. It makes people forget how dangerous he is, > and it opens the door to his return. That's all the paradox of > tolerance, and all the delicate question of the democratic > equilibrium. > Who said that HP was only a child book? Actually, the reaction whenever Harry says Voldemort instead of "You Know Who' put me in mind of the old English saying, ``speak of the Devil and he shall appear''. There is an old belief that if you actually name the thing you fear it will manifest - so that, to me, explains why the WW is afraid to call LV by name. Rather than leading people to forget the danger, it reinforces the fear. Or to put it another way, as my grandmother used to say if anyone made a dire prediction, ``don't tempt fate.'' Dumbledore calls LV by name because he is too intelligent to fall for such a silly superstition - he knows that LV will return whether you verbally cross your fingers or not, and Harry calls him by name because he hasn't grown up with this superstition drummed in to him. Just my thoughts, TravellerRose. From arielock at aol.com Sun Dec 14 23:03:34 2003 From: arielock at aol.com (arielock2001) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 23:03:34 -0000 Subject: Is Trelawney a witch? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87093 Eric Oppen wondered about Trelawney: "You know, I wonder how well she'd do with ordinary witches' skills...can she duel her way out of a paper bag, is she any good at Transfiguration...?" Arianna (that's me, I'm new) responds: Are we even sure that Trelawney is a witch? I have always thought she was a squib. I can think of two canon references that imply that Trelawney cannot perform magic and was never a student at Hogwarts. 1) In PoA, she asks Neville to avoid her pink tea cups (p 104 American ed.), as he has a tendency to break things, and she is fond of those particular cups. Why would it matter if Neville broke the cup? Hermione has performed the Reparo spell, Harry repairs a bowl in OoP (p329), and Snape repairs a jar on p592 (OoP). Wouldn't she be able to repair her pink teacup if it were to shatter? 2) When Dumbledore tells Harry about the prophesy, he states (OoP 840 American Ed.), "I thought it common politeness to meet her." Now perhaps I am taking this too literately, but the implication is that Dumbledore has never seen this woman before. It would have been just as easy, and more likely, to have referred to her as a former student if she had been. It could be possible that she attended another wizarding school, but Hogwarts is the only school of its kind in England (or Scotland), and no one has made any mention of Trelawney having an accent. Harry does comment that he has seen Trelawney with a wand (OoP 594), but he has never seen her *use* it. She could have gotten one as a gift, or it could have been her great-great-grandmother's. Has anyone found a direct evidence that she is a witch? -Arianna From travellerrose at yahoo.com Sun Dec 14 23:14:31 2003 From: travellerrose at yahoo.com (travellerrose) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 23:14:31 -0000 Subject: Lucius fears Voldemort Was: Are Malfoy and Fudge the real masterminds? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87094 Sophierom: (snip) > Another interesting question raised by this analogy to Nazi Germany > is, why would the WW be so seduced by LV in the first place? Hitler > played to German anxieties after WWI; what anxieties existed in the > WW to allow LV to gain so many followers? Did Grindelwald's fall > just previous to LVI have anything to do with it? Or is > Grindelwald unrelated to LV's rise? (snip) Hope I did that snip thing right! The anxieties that existed in the WW would have focussed on Muggles, I think - even though it is stated that burning a witch is pointless (In Quidditch Through The Ages, possibly - all my books are packed for moving, at the moment) and that the WW thinks our obsession with technology is ridiculous (or fascinating, if you are Arthur Weasley), nevertheless, the world is under Muggle control and the WW hides from Muggles, not the other way round. So as Hitler in Nazi Germany focussed the fear and anger of the people on a particular group, the Jewish people, LV focusses it on Muggles - and promises that the WW will subdue the Muggle world to about the level of house elves, or less, I should imagine. Lucius (or as he is known in my household since Jason Isaacs took the role in the movies - ``Lucious'' Malfoy) uses LV as a path to power, I think. He is not brave enough to put his convictions on the line and BE a LV. He will asssist until the climate has changed, and then someone like that would have to be carefully watched by LV himself - LV wouldn't be able to trust him. Lucius is a natural plotter. Just my thoughts, TravellerRose From abbet659 at hotmail.com Mon Dec 15 00:54:14 2003 From: abbet659 at hotmail.com (abbet69) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 00:54:14 -0000 Subject: Magic power vs. complex Magic Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87095 Question: If Hermione cast a complicated locking spell on a door, could Dumbledore use a simple unlocking spell to open the door just because he's more powerful than Hermione or would he have to figure out the right counter spell. or If Dumbledore cast a simple locking spell of a door, could Hermione use a complicated spell to get the door open. Abbet From pixieberry at harborside.com Mon Dec 15 00:57:02 2003 From: pixieberry at harborside.com (Krystol Berry) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 16:57:02 -0800 Subject: (Filk) Animagus Message-ID: <003c01c3c2a6$5a4ab130$0f3a2d0c@D55NTV31> No: HPFGUIDX 87096 This song was just begging to be filked...and I *know* I'm not the only one on the list who listens to the Newsboys! I couldn't find a midi file, but the original lyrics are here: http://www.newsboys.com/themusic.php?id=10&lyric=7 Animagus to the tune of "Cornelius" by the Newsboys Dedicated to Geoff REMUS: And every generation's got The fearless few who're never caught. They don't look nervously around. They just transform, and then they roam the grounds. Come up and see my dearest friends They're true indeed, Their loyalty has no end. Yeah, they know magic, Yeah, they've got game, And they can transform Into quadripedic beings. ALL: na na na na na na na na na Animagus JAMES, SIRIUS, PETER: And every friend of Remus knows To the full moon he's predisposed To turn into a vicious beast. But with us, danger is decreased. REMUS: Come on and see the guys transform Straightaway assume the animal norm. They take my burden easy, Though it might chafe. Animagi with me, Everyone is safe. ALL: na na na na na na na na na Animagus REMUS, SIRIUS, PETER: Prongs strong like a centurion 'Cause he's an animagus REMUS, JAMES, PETER: Padfoot obsidian as soot 'Cause he's an animagus. REMUS, JAMES, SIRIUS: Wormtail won't fail. Wormtail won't fail. REMUS: What rhymes with animagus? SIRIUS: Snivellus! ALL: Mauraders, we made a deal, a deal, All for one, and one for us. JAMES: I'm ready to roam without a fuss I'm an, I'm an animagus. JAMES, SIRIUS, PETER: When Moony needs us here we come Converting for our steadfast chum Who's constant as the ocean's tides, Who puts the frat in fraternize. Check, check it out--the thrill you get. Balance on a high wire Without any net. Show you know magic, Show you've got game You gotta know, (Remus Lupin!) You know what's in a name! ALL: na na na na na na na na na Animagus JAMES: I'm ready to go Without a fuss I'm an, I'm an Animagus SIRIUS: I'm not a wuss. I never was. I'm an, I'm an Animagus Pixieberry From lovefromhermione at yahoo.com Mon Dec 15 03:33:42 2003 From: lovefromhermione at yahoo.com (lovefromhermione at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:33:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Omnioculars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031215033342.32725.qmail@web40207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87097 I apologize if this subject has been canvassed before, but I've been wondering about what has happened to the trio's Omnioculars they bought at the Quidditch World Cup. Were they like most rubbish sold at sporting events, festivals, parades, etc., whose magic wears off and renders them useless? Considering how many Galleons Harry paid for them, I'd hope they would be functional beyond just that night (To put them in perspective, the Omnioculars were ten Galleons each, and Harry paid only seven Galleons for his beloved wand). With their ability to replay action seen through them, could they not serve as a quasi-pensive (if the trio thought to use them) to look at things again? For example, during the Triwizard tasks, Hermione and Ron could have been using their Omnioculars to check out what various suspects (Karkaroff, Bagman, Rita Skeeter :) ) were up to, and then rehash what they saw with Harry. Are these a resource the trio isn't utilizing? I realize that HRH would look more than a little odd if they were to walk around to their classes with Omnioculars pressed against their eyeballs, but in those situations when they were deliberately looking for clues, the glasses might prove useful. If nothing else, they could have been used along with the Extendable Ears to try and work out what the Order was up to, on those occasions that the kids saw members. Julie, who wishes she could have just a few of these handy magical objects __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ From pixieberry at harborside.com Sun Dec 14 22:08:12 2003 From: pixieberry at harborside.com (Krystol Berry) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 14:08:12 -0800 Subject: Books about HP and religion? Message-ID: <002b01c3c28e$c484adc0$0f3a2d0c@D55NTV31> No: HPFGUIDX 87098 I'm wondering if anyone has come across any good books relating the HP series to Christianity. I've done a search and come up with a couple of them, but I'd like to hear if any of you have read something like that, and your thoughts. Geoff? This is right up your Alley! :) Pixieberry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Mon Dec 15 04:33:17 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 04:33:17 -0000 Subject: Potters as their own Secret Keepers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87099 Arya 1st wrote: Ok, it has just occurred to me...if Dumbledore was able to be the Secret Keeper for the Order and easily come and go about Grimmauld Place, then why couldn't either Lily or James have been the Secret Keeper for when they went into hiding? Also-- what happens if a Secret Keeper is killed? Ooh--since the secret is locking within the *soul*, what happens if a Dementor kisses that person and sucks out their soul? Mandy wrote: I think you raise two very good points. Perhaps the reason for a third party secret keeper is because of the danger of keeping your own secret. The danger being that if you die the secret dies with you, and whatever is in hiding remains in hiding for the rest of eternity. Arya again: But wouldn't that be wonderful if you wanted to remain in hiding? If the secret was "The Potters are in hiding/living at 123 Red Lion Lane in Godric's Hollow" then wouldn't that just be even safer if the secret keeper either (a) had their identity kept secret by a second Fidelius Charm or (b) dies, leaving no possible way for anyone to ever breech the secret of the charm? It's not like they're lost to the world for all eternity, really. They can receive Owl Post I reckon (maybe the secret keeper has to tell the owl, but still) and they could still leave that place and come out of hiding on their own. Hmm, I wonder why Dumbledore doesn't just put the content of the prophecy under the Fidelius Charm? Can the secret of the charm be "gleaned" from one using Legilimency? Must the secret be willingly given? I admit, I was very surprised it could be passed on by means of a note (such as Harry reads to be able to see Grimmauld Place). What if the note was lost--could anyone who read it, see it then? It sure seems like it. It seems odd that the secret on that note was "The HQ of the Order of the Phoenix may be found at Number 12..."--why should that prevent Harry from *seeing* the house when he didn't know he was looking for the HQ of the OotP, he just needed to see where they were going. Hmmm.... Ug, this is so convoluted. From navarro198 at hotmail.com Mon Dec 15 05:05:59 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 05:05:59 -0000 Subject: Use of Madam - Madam Bones In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87100 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nora Renka" wrote: > > bboy_mn wrote: > > > JAfteral there is no real overseeing authority that validates > > muggle Bachelor, Master, PHD degrees in the muggle world. The only > > thing that gives value to a degree from Harvard is the reputation of > > the school. So the Harvard review commitees have the sole and full > > authority to set any standard and give out degrees to anyone they > > want, and we have no choice but to accept their word for it. Nora wrote: > To go slightly off-topic, that's actually not true: there's an > independent board which accredits American universities, and they > *do* put people on probation pretty quickly for violations. This > deals somewhat with administrative issues, but also with curriculum, > and things like what you have to do for the degree requirements-- > qualifiers and all of those fun things. There's also the phenomenon > of peer review; there are departments that one knows a student coming > out of is not going to be as good as others. Long point short, it's > really not so arbitrary, especially once you get into a specialized > field. Bookworm: To add to what Nora wrote, the process is a bit more involved than just administrative. Anyone who has ever been involved with the accreditation process knows that it is a major event - every department in the college is inspected - student records, teacher credentials, curriculum, etc. And if a school loses its accreditation, it loses its federal funds, including student loans. The process may be "voluntary" but all reputable schools go through it - including Harvard. Ravenclaw Bookworm From zanelupin at yahoo.com Mon Dec 15 06:36:05 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 06:36:05 -0000 Subject: Potters as their own Secret Keepers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87101 Arya wrote: >Hmm, I wonder why Dumbledore doesn't just put the content of the prophecy under the Fidelius Charm? Can the secret of the charm be "gleaned" from one using Legilimency? Must the secret be willingly given?< KathyK: I go back and forth as to whether or not something protected by the Fidelius Charm can actually be discovered by Legilimency. Today I am going with no. Tomorrow may bring a different answer. I don't know much at all about Legilimency at all (who does, really?) having missed many a thread on the subject. I prefer to take it as Snape describes it in Harry's Occlumency lessons. It makes things less sticky, IMO. OoP, US 530, Occlumency: "The mind is not a book, to be opened at will and examined at leisure. Thoughts are not etched on the inside of skulls, to be perused by an invader. The mind is a complex and many-layered thing, Potter..." He continues: "It is true, however, that those who have mastered Legilimency are able, under certain conditions, to delve into the minds of their victims and to interpret their findings correctly. The Dark Lord, for instance, almost always knows when somebody is lying to him." A Legilimens is not able to simply open up a person's mind, rattle around, and take what's valuable. Sometimes a Legilimens is able to get the desired information, but only if he/she can correctly interpret what they discover. So it's not as easy as Voldemort going to Peter Pettigrew (this is just an example, mind you), digging around his mind until he found what he was after. No, Voldemort would have to find those "certain conditions" Snape talks of, invade Peter's mind under those conditions, and be able to figure out what he's looking for from a whole mess of random things that could be coming at him. Voldemort, for instance, may be skilled in Legilimency and he may be able to tell when a person is lying to him, but he isn't able to read someone's mind in the sense that he'd have to in order to find a particular tidbit of information he's looking for. As for the second point, I do believe the Secret-Keeper must willingly give away the secret. For this I point to Flitwick in PoA, US 205, The Marauder's Map: "The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret- Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find--unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it." The key phrases in this quote are "impossible to find" and "Secret- Keeper chooses." I think the secret hidden inside a single, living soul being impossible to find is pretty straightforward. AFAIK, Legilimency as a skill is not some unknown to the general WW--at least, I hope it's not, so I suppose I'll say I assume it's something known--and therefore is included in the Fidelius Charm business. Flitwick said "impossible," not "nearly impossible" or "very difficult." The other key phrase is the kicker. The Secret is revealed to others only if the Secret-Keeper *chooses* to tell someone. Now, I know this is not hard fact and there are many questions, such as, "If the Secret was so well hidden that only the Secret-Keeper making the choice to give it away works, then why not stick with Sirius? Wouldn't he have taken it to the grave with him rather than betray his best friend?" Or there's, "Well Kathy, that's all well and good, but explain to me how anyone other than LV found the Potters house, the Potters, and most especially Harry if this secret is so secret that it's impossible to find unless the secret-keeper chooses to tell another?" The answer to the first is, I'm as confused as the next reader about Secret-Keeping, I just love to talk about it anytime I have the opportunity. I have no idea why it was necessary to switch to Sirius. Unless, the Secret-Keeper can be compelled under Imperius to reveal the information. But that steps all over the failsafe- ness of the Fidelius that I just went to such care to illustrate. But I don't really believe it can be revealed under the influence of the Imperius Curse. Maybe they just wanted to be cautious and perhaps even Sirius has his limits as to what he can handle before he'd give in. But then again, why Peter? Because Voldemort would never even think to go after him for that sort of information, or so they thought? The answer to the second is that it seems that when the object of the Fidelius (the Secret) is destroyed, whether it be person or thing, the charm is broken (either that or Peter told Sirius and Hagrid the secret--and Dumbledore, too). Now, I have another question. Were Lily and James hidden inside Peter's soul, so that no matter where they went, they were well hidden? Or was it their location in Godric's Hollow? Because it seems a little silly to hide the Potter's in their own home. Even if Voldemort couldn't find *them,* if he knew where they lived, he could just destroy their home. So maybe it's a combination of both the Potter's and their location being a part of the secret hidden inside Pettigrew. Despite these lingering questions, I think the most important part of the Fidelius eqation still remains in the Secret-Keeper choosing to divulge the secret within. Especially when it comes to the issue of Legilimency. Presumably, a Legilimens wanting a secret protected by Fidelius would be invading a Secret-Keeper's mind to find something someone doesn't want him/her to know. Otherwise, the Secret-Keeper would just tell that person. The Secret-Keeper is not choosing to tell the Legilimens the secret. Therefore, the secret cannot be learned in that fashion. Arya: >I admit, I was very surprised it could be passed on by means of a note (such as Harry reads to be able to see Grimmauld Place). What if the note was lost--could anyone who read it, see it then? It sure seems like it. It seems odd that the secret on that note was "The HQ of the Order of the Phoenix may be found at Number 12..."--why should that prevent Harry from *seeing* the house when he didn't know he was looking for the HQ of the OotP, he just needed to see where they were going. Hmmm....< KathyK: Arya, I have to thank you. Seeing you wonder about the possible dangers attached to writing down such a secret finally helped me to see an answer to this problem. It's so simple...The piece of paper with the location of the Order of the Phoenix was *bewitched* to look blank or look like something else. Here, let me illustrate from canon: OoP, US 582, Seen and Unforeseen: "The pages carrying Harry's interview had been bewitched to resemble extracts from textbooks if anyone but themselves read it, or else wiped magically blank until they wanted to peruse it again." The piece of paper was designed so that *only Harry* could read it. If it fell into the wrong hands, all they'd find is Moody's grocery list or something equally mundane, much like portkeys are designed to deter muggles from getting curious. And perhaps it had an even better charm on it than the students' copies of _The Quibbler_. Maybe it was truly wiped blank if anyone else other than it's intended recipient read the paper. Arya: >It seems odd that the secret on that note was "The HQ of the Order of the Phoenix may be found at Number 12..."--why should that prevent Harry from *seeing* the house when he didn't know he was looking for the HQ of the OotP, he just needed to see where they were going. Hmmm....< KathyK: Maybe the secret involves both the actual physical location of 12 Grimmauld Place as well as it housing the Order headquarters? KathyK, who is now wondering what actually might show up on Moody's grocery list From purple_801999 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 15 06:44:16 2003 From: purple_801999 at yahoo.com (purple_801999) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 06:44:16 -0000 Subject: Traitors - Analysis of Percy In-Reply-To: <008901c3c2bc$883e99b0$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87102 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > > > > > Diana L. writes: > > I actually don't see Percy as ESE or as a spy working for > > Dumbledore. I see him as an extremely ambitious, power-hungry fool > > willing to lick Fudge's boots for the chance of advancement in his > > work. .... And those traits wouldn't have put him in Slytherin, either. > K said- > Uh, yes they would. Ambition is one of the main traits listed for > Slytherins, along with being a pure-blood. So actually he'd fit right in. > But, wouldn't it take courage to split from the rest of the Weasleys? I know that Percy is being a little sycophant prig, but he doesn't. He has always put his work, be it reports on thin bottomed cauldrons or being Fudge's butt monkey, ahead of pretty much everything. So to cut himself off from everything he's known and his main support (Molly) to live on his own (on a lackey's salary?)could have take a lot more gumption thsn we make give him credit for. Just as the twins take off from Hogwarts early to start their joke shop (Under normal circumstances I think Molly would have had their identical heads on a platter), Percy has different priorities. Percy has as much heart as any of his family,he just put it in the wrong place this time. He may have courage aplenty, but no one said courage and wisdom came hand in hand. Or empathy for that matter. Does that make what he's done okay? No friggin' way! Rejecting his family? Wrong. Denouncing Harry? Wrong. Not visiting his father in the hospital after he nearly died? Very wrong. But to get what they want the Weasleys can get carried away. The twins gamble all their money to get seed money, Arthur stalls his career with his love of Muggle artifacts, Molly can be a bit...overbearing,Ron has been suspected on this very list of one day betraying Harry for honor, riches, and the love of a frizzy haired girl, Ginny broke into the shed to fly the boys' brooms while they were at school. Percy wants respect, he wants power. He's just backed the wrong horse to get it. I suspect that much of Percy's diet in Book Six will be crow. And he'll have to prove himself big time to be redeemed in everyone's eyes, including ours. Olivia Grey From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Dec 15 07:56:47 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 07:56:47 -0000 Subject: Books about HP and religion? In-Reply-To: <002b01c3c28e$c484adc0$0f3a2d0c@D55NTV31> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87103 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Krystol Berry" wrote: > I'm wondering if anyone has come across any good books relating the HP series to Christianity. I've done a search and come up with a couple of them, but I'd like to hear if any of you have read something like that, and your thoughts. > > Geoff? This is right up your Alley! > Geoff: Wot, me guv? I have read a number of articles on the web. One I found which looks at attitudes on both sides is "Good, Evil and Harry Potter" by Alex Pyron. I've forgotten where I found it. If you can't track it, I could email the article as I downloaded it. A book I am still currently reading if "The Gospel according to Harry Potter" by Connie Neal. It is published by WJK Press(Wstminster john Knox Press) of Louisville and London. The ISBN of my copy i 0 664 22601 9. There is a website apparently: www.wjkbooks.com. Geoff From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Mon Dec 15 09:54:34 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 09:54:34 -0000 Subject: Is Trelawney a witch? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87104 > Arianna (that's me, I'm new) responds: > Are we even sure that Trelawney is a witch? I have always > thought she was a squib. I can think of two canon references > that imply that Trelawney cannot perform magic and was never a > student at Hogwarts. > 1) In PoA, she asks Neville to avoid her pink tea cups (p 104 > American ed.), as he has a tendency to break things, and she is > fond of those particular cups. Why would it matter if Neville > broke the cup? Hermione has performed the Reparo spell, Harry > repairs a bowl in OoP (p329), and Snape repairs a jar on p592 > (OoP). Wouldn't she be able to repair her pink teacup if it were > to shatter? Possibly. We don't really know how much damage can be done to a teacup before it's unrepairable, though, and she may not have wanted to risk it on a good cup... > 2) When Dumbledore tells Harry about the prophesy, he states > (OoP 840 American Ed.), "I thought it common politeness to > meet her." Now perhaps I am taking this too literately, but the > implication is that Dumbledore has never seen this woman > before. It would have been just as easy, and more likely, to have > referred to her as a former student if she had been. She may not have been. He had only been headmaster for less then 10 years at the time, IIRC, and she could, of course, have gone to another wizarding school, as well... > Harry does comment that he has seen Trelawney with a wand > (OoP 594), but he has never seen her *use* it. She could have > gotten one as a gift, or it could have been her > great-great-grandmother's. Has anyone found direct evidence > that she is a witch? > That I did. GoF, US edition, page 575 "If you will all look this way, I will dim the lights. . . ." She waved her wand and the lamps went out. The fire was the only source of light now." --Arcum From patientx3 at aol.com Mon Dec 15 09:55:40 2003 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 09:55:40 -0000 Subject: Traitors - Analysis of Percy In-Reply-To: <008901c3c2bc$883e99b0$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87105 Diana L. writes: > I actually don't see Percy as ESE or as a spy working for > Dumbledore. I see him as an extremely ambitious, power-hungry fool > willing to lick Fudge's boots for the chance of advancement in his > work. .... And those traits wouldn't have put him in Slytherin, > either. K replied: >>Uh, yes they would. Ambition is one of the main traits listed for Slytherins, along with being a pure-blood. So actually he'd fit right in. [snip] *who would like to point out that the requirements for being in Slytherin do not include being an arrogant, Voldemort following prat - it just looks that way sometimes*<< HunterGreen: Then why *wasn't* he put in Slytherin? I will certainly agree that he has shown bravery, but Percy is *much* more ambitious than he is brave. It makes me think there is *some* element of choice with the sorting hat; perhaps like Harry he *asked* not to be put in Slytherin, if only because his two older brothers were already in a different house. I think he qualifies for both houses, but much more to Slytherin. Also, on the subject of Percy, there was a fantastic post about a month or so ago analyzing him, its messege #85244 under the heading 'Re: Percy Weasley under Lucius' Imperius Curse?' -HunterGreen. From derek at rhinobunny.com Mon Dec 15 12:12:20 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 04:12:20 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Trelawney a witch? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031215040048.025c5c80@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87106 >> Arianna wrote: >> Are we even sure that Trelawney is a witch? (snip) >> Has anyone found direct evidence that she is a witch? >arcum42 wrote: >That I did. GoF, US edition, page 575 >"If you will all look this way, I will dim the lights. . . ." > >She waved her wand and the lamps went out. The fire was the >only source of light now." Derek: Just to be a nuisance, I must say it's interesting that she made them all look in a particular direction *before* she made the lamps go out. It gives it the feel of a real-world-type magic trick based on misdirection. And that would also be in keeping with the way she teaches Divination... all style and no substance. She seems to have a genuine latent talent for Divination, but it's not consciously controllable. There's an interesting thought... I wonder if Squibs do have some magical talent, but no ability to harness, control, or direct it... - Derek From FinduilasMyDarkdream at lycos.de Mon Dec 15 08:43:09 2003 From: FinduilasMyDarkdream at lycos.de (finduilasmydarkdreamer) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 08:43:09 -0000 Subject: The prophecy under Fidelius? (Was: Potters as their own Secret Keepers?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87107 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > Hmm, I wonder why Dumbledore doesn't just put the content of the > prophecy under the Fidelius Charm? Can the secret of the charm be "gleaned" > from one using Legilimency? Must the secret be willingly given? I > admit, I was very surprised it could be passed on by means of a note (such > as Harry reads to be able to see Grimmauld Place). What if the note was > lost--could anyone who read it, see it then? It sure seems like it. It > seems odd that the secret on that note was "The HQ of the Order of the > Phoenix may be found at Number 12..."--why should that prevent Harry from > *seeing* the house when he didn't know he was looking for the HQ of the > OotP, he just needed to see where they were going. Hmmm.... < SnapesRaven: I think this is an interesting question, though to me the possible answer is an easy one (correct me if I'm wrong). I find the whole logic around the prophecy very striking. If I recollet correctly, all that happened is necessary to fulfill the prophecy. The eavesdropper at the door when Trelawney made the prediction, the whole MoM-incident,... everything adds to its fulfillment. Voldemort has to know of the prophecy, and has to know the details his servant told him. So I think 'fate' would have been different had the prophecy been under Fidelius. The circumstances would have been entirely different had Voldemort a) not known of the prediction at all, b) known different/fewer/all details, c) received the spun glass sphere in whole to listen to he prophecy in one piece. His actions depend on what he knows (and on what he doesn't know but assumes). I think that there might of course have been ways to conceal the prophecy from Voldemort, but perhaps the MoM considered the necessity of the one the prophecy is about to take it from the shelf sufficient. Other magical ways of disguising or protecting the prohecy could probably have been circumvened by a powerful wizard like Voldemort. What do you think? SnapesRaven *retransforming into a raven, fluttering away to meet up with Fawkes* From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Mon Dec 15 14:09:49 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 14:09:49 -0000 Subject: Is Trelawney a witch? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031215040048.025c5c80@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87108 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Derek Hiemforth wrote: > There's an interesting thought... I wonder if Squibs do have some > magical talent, but no ability to harness, control, or direct it... > > - Derek Possibly, but I've always suspected that Trelawney is a witch with near squib-powers, much like it is often claimed Neville is. Hence she went into divination, using some "muggle" tricks, as a way of compensating for her lack of magical skills. Serena From rredordead at aol.com Mon Dec 15 14:27:12 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 14:27:12 -0000 Subject: Percy asked the Sorting Hat for Gryffindor. Was: Traitors - Analysis of Percy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87109 > HunterGreen said: > Then why *wasn't* he put in Slytherin? Mandy here: Why wasn't he put in to Slytherin? Perhaps he asked not to, just as you suggested. That simple. I don't imagine for a minute the Harry was the first kid to ask the Hat not to put him into a particular house. Percy comes from a very large family of almost all boys. All of whom have been loyal Gryffindors. I can see the elder Weasley boys taunting the younger ones by saying "If your not in Gryffindor... (insert various taunts of failure)." Probably threatening to beat them up too. All in that friendly, sadistic way siblings behave toward each other. I can see Percy sitting on that stool, with the Sorting Hat suggesting he fits in to Slytherin and Percy terrified at the thought begging the hat for Gryffindor. Mandy From Ali at zymurgy.org Mon Dec 15 15:06:33 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:06:33 -0000 Subject: HP and the democratic equilibrium(Re: Umbridge, brooms and DEs) In-Reply-To: <1071345013.12064.41.camel@stone.homenetwork> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87110 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "J.O. Williams" wrote: > Taking away equipment that you yourself paid for is theft. Umbridge can't steal equipment that doesn't belong to Hogwarts. Ali disagrees:- Theft in English Law involves "dishonest appropriation of another property with the intention to permanently deprive" It is not dishonest if Umbridge had the legal authority to do it. Certainly, British pupils would expect their teachers to confiscate property that they owned at school. Nor has Umbridge appropriated the broom for herself. She has stopped Harry from using it though. My understanding of school "confiscation" was that the teachers returned the items back at the end of the term - or the year. My dictionary definition is different, as it defines confiscation as "seized by authority or summariliy" (or appropriate to the public treasury, but although that is how the word derives from the Latin, it is hardly relevant here). Given that Umbridge kept the brooms in her office, and then later in the dungeons, I believed that although Harry would be unable to use it, he was still considered the owner of his broom. the broom would not be used by or appropriated by anybody else. I believe it is arguable whether Umbridge would have kept Harry's broom after he had left Hogwarts. I had several items confiscated at school, as did many of my friends. Yes, it did annoy us, but never would I have considered it to be theft. I think it is simply another example of JKR applying British school culture to her Potterverse, a culture which is of course foreign to many readers. Ali From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Mon Dec 15 15:06:04 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:06:04 -0000 Subject: Sqib's abilities (was Is Trelawney a witch?) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031215040048.025c5c80@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87111 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Derek Hiemforth wrote: > > There's an interesting thought... I wonder if Squibs do have some > magical talent, but no ability to harness, control, or direct it... > > - Derek Carolyn: On this point, I've always wondered how Filch managed to restore the Fat Lady portrait after Sirius slashed it. DD specifically says he will ask Filch to do the work, and doesn't give it to Flitwick or someone else more suitable. If the portrait was actually slashed to ribbons, it would be difficult for him just to paint on some magical substance out of a can to fix it. From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Mon Dec 15 15:10:29 2003 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:10:29 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The title Madam was: Hogwarts Teachers. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87112 Steve said: >So, in summary, the use of Madam shows respect, but does so without >regard to or acknowledgement of marital status. In the case of >spinsters and widows, it's probably best NOT to use any inferences to >marriage, and in other cases, it just common courtesy. But what about Neville's grandmother? Neville saw his grandfather die, which makes her a widow, but the nurse at St. Mungo's (and, I believe, others) calls her "Mrs. Longbottom." (I suppose it's possible that Neville actually saw his maternal grandfather die, but for some reason that's not the impression I got.) Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Shop online for kids toys by age group, price range, and toy category at MSN Shopping. No waiting for a clerk to help you! http://shopping.msn.com From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 15 15:31:35 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (Phyllis) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:31:35 -0000 Subject: Potters as their own Secret Keepers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87113 KathyK wrote: > I have no idea why it was necessary to switch to Sirius. IMO, it wasn't necessary to switch to Sirius. I agree with you that Sirius would have died rather than given away the Potters' location. IIRC, he even says so himself in PoA. I think Sirius switched with Peter in the hopes that both he (Sirius) and the Potters would survive. Sirius didn't suspect that Peter was Voldemort's spy, and he believed Peter to be the last person Voldemort would identify as the Potters' secret-keeper. So by switching to Peter, Sirius was trying to avoid being killed himself while still protecting the secrecy of the Potters' whereabouts. KathyK: > Were Lily and James hidden inside Peter's soul, so that no matter > where they went, they were well hidden? Or was it their > location in Godric's Hollow? I don't think they were hidden inside Peter's soul (that would be a fate worse than death, IMO!), but I do believe that no matter where they went, they were well hidden. I think of it as their being invisible, since Flitwick says something to the effect that Voldemort could press his nose against their living room window and still not be able to see them. But since JKR hasn't said that one is invisible while under the Fidelius Charm, this is certainly open to debate. KathyK: > Even if Voldemort couldn't find *them,* if he knew where they > lived, he could just destroy their home. True, he could destroy their home, but witches and wizards can survive catastrophes that would normally kill us Muggles. So it could be that destroying their home wouldn't have been sufficient to kill Lily and James. ~Phyllis From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 15 15:35:22 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (Phyllis) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:35:22 -0000 Subject: Fantastic Post Nominations (WAS: Traitors - Analysis of Percy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87114 HunterGreen wrote: > Also, on the subject of Percy, there was a fantastic post about a > month or so ago analyzing him, its messege #85244 under the > heading 'Re: Percy Weasley under Lucius' Imperius Curse?' I also spotted this post, also thought it was fantastic, and therefore forwarded it to: Fantastic_Posts @ yahoogroups.com (without the spaces), which is an archive group that the Fantastic Post Owls have set up to compile potential posts for use in updating current fantastic posts and in creating new ones. If you think a post is fantastic, please let us know about it! IMO, the easiest thing to do is to forward the post to the Fantastic_Posts @ yahoogroups.com address (we only ask that if you do this, to please include the message number in your forwarding text as the message number doesn't show up on forwarded messages). List members may also identify posts they'd like to see in a fantastic post essay by going to the to archive group's home page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Fantastic_Posts/?yguid=124264004 and posting a message that includes the url of the fantastic post or post's number, the author of the fantastic post, the topic of the fantastic post and the date of the fantastic post. Thanks! ~Phyllis From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Dec 15 15:39:13 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:39:13 -0000 Subject: How much does Dumbledore know. In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20031214223521.00a811e0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87115 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tanya Swaine wrote: > Was reading GOF again the other day, and this bit of information jumped out > at me. > Dumbledore had rescued Harry from Moody fake, and was ordering the others round. > Before he knew who the fake was, he had Winky sent for, while they waited for the polyjuice to wear off. That has me wondering, just how lucky a guess was that. > Sirius reports to Dumbledore ("You are not Sirius's only correspondent"). So, presumably, does Snape, though this is not confirmed until Book Five. Dumbledore would know, from Snape, that Snape's office has been burgled and polyjuice makings have gone missing, and , from Sirius, that Harry thinks Barty Crouch was the burglar. Sirius wouldn't have had to reveal anything about the Map--if he said that Harry spotted Barty Crouch in Snape's office, that would be perfectly true. Naturally, having discovered an impostor, Dumbledore remembers that Barty Crouch is suspected of burgling Snape's office, and sends for Winky at once. Pippin From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Mon Dec 15 15:54:39 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:54:39 -0000 Subject: Which Hogwarts teachers are married ? Xmas clues Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87116 A piece of seasonal detective work.. JKR has suggested that some of the teachers at Hogwarts are married, and out of curiosity, and in the best Agatha Christie alibi-checking style, I looked at the Christmas scenes in each of the books to see if this might give us a clue as to who stayed at home with their partner rather than stay at the school. PS (p.149 UK edition) DD, Flitwick, Hagrid and McGonagall are the only ones specifically named as being at the feast, although the text does mention that 100 turkeys were cooked, so it sounds a large meal CoS (p.159 UK edition) This time only DD and Hagrid are specifically named as being there. PoA (p.168) This is the infamous 13 people at the feast, the first to get up is the first to die At this table, DD, McGonagall, Snape, Sprout, Flitwick, Trelawny and Filch are the only Hogwarts staff specifically mentioned. GoF (p. 357 UK edition) Not only is this another 100-turkey event, but the circumstances are a little different with the Triwizard competition and the Yule Ball. However, only McGonagall, DD, Hagrid, Sinistra, Snape and Sprout are specifically mentioned as being there. OoP (p.443 UK edition) We can't tell anything from this book, as the trio were at 12 Grimmauld Place with Sirius. Teachers conspicuously missing from this list are: Professor Binns (but then he is a ghost but what happens if your wizard husband dies and becomes a ghost ? Does he come back to be a spectre at the family Xmas feast ??!) Professor Grubbly-Plank (but we all know she was with Madame Hooch !) Madame Hooch (see above !) Professor Kettleburn (he didn't retire until the end of CoS) Professor Lockhart (only could have been there for one Xmas, but wasn't mentioned) Professor Lupin (again, only there for one year, and if the staff had spent all the previous term knowingly eating with a werewolf, I don't see why they shouldn't have shared their Christmas dinner with him ) Madame Pince Madame Pomfrey Professor Quirrell (only there for one last year, but not mentioned at the feast in PS) Professor Vector (we don't know if this is a witch or a wizard, and never mentioned except in passing in any of the books) Of course, it is boring to write in long lists every time, so authorial selectivity must be taken into account. However, a few clues here I think. What price any of the teachers being married to someone at the MoM ?? Carolyn From blackgold101 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 15 16:02:54 2003 From: blackgold101 at yahoo.com (Marci) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 16:02:54 -0000 Subject: Squibs (was: Is Trelawney a witch?) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031215040048.025c5c80@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87117 Derek Hiemforth wrote: > > There's an interesting thought... I wonder if Squibs do have some > magical talent, but no ability to harness, control, or direct it... > > - Derek My turn: I'm under the impression that squibs are magical, but can't perform it either at all, or it's just poor. At least that's what I gathered from the Kwikspell letters. Marci From laura.carberry at aintitcoolmail.com Mon Dec 15 16:25:47 2003 From: laura.carberry at aintitcoolmail.com (laura) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 16:25:47 -0000 Subject: Potters as their own Secret Keepers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87118 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > Arya wrote: > > >Hmm, I wonder why Dumbledore doesn't just put the content of the > prophecy under the Fidelius Charm? Can the secret of the charm > be "gleaned" from one using Legilimency? Must the secret be > willingly given?< > > > > KathyK: > *sniiip* > As for the second point, I do believe the Secret-Keeper must > willingly give away the secret. For this I point to Flitwick in > PoA, US 205, The Marauder's Map: > *sniiip* > "The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret- > Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find--unless, of course, the > Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it." > *sniip* > The key phrases in this quote are "impossible to find" and "Secret- > Keeper chooses." I think the secret hidden inside a single, living > soul being impossible to find is pretty straightforward. *sniiipity snip* > The other key phrase is the kicker. The Secret is revealed to > others only if the Secret-Keeper *chooses* to tell someone. lola: Firstly, sorry Kathy for snipping so much of a great post! i think that a the two major factors in the working of the fidelus charm are (1)the loyalty of the secret-keeper to the secret, and (2)the trust of theose who have the secret for the secret keeper. 'Fidelity' can be used in both such contexts. I believe that both criteria must be fufilled for the charm to be efective, in this case that is, Wormtail must be loyal to the Potters, and the Potters must trust Wormtail to keep their secret. With the charm being so important and complex, I think it is likely that the process is very much a two-way thing:Dumbledore could not just have grabbed a random person off the street to be the secret keeper. Anyway I have no idea how much this adds to anything, Im just doing my best to avoid working on my essay... From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Mon Dec 15 16:25:51 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 16:25:51 -0000 Subject: Which Hogwarts teachers are married ? Xmas clues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87119 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > A piece of seasonal detective work.. > > JKR has suggested that some of the teachers at Hogwarts are married, > and out of curiosity, and in the best Agatha Christie alibi- checking > style, I looked at the Christmas scenes in each of the books to see > if this might give us a clue as to who stayed at home with their > partner rather than stay at the school. > > Carolyn I not sure what tradition is in British boarding schools. But could be some kinda of staff dinner that all the staff goes too. They have Christmas morning with their families and then go in for dinner at the school. Just a thought... Serena From koukla_es at yahoo.es Mon Dec 15 16:28:38 2003 From: koukla_es at yahoo.es (neith_seshat) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 16:28:38 -0000 Subject: Which Hogwarts teachers are married ? Xmas clues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87120 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote:(sinpping a nice post) > Professor Vector (we don't know if this is a witch or a wizard, and > never mentioned except in passing in any of the books) She is ia with, and it is mentioned in POA, when Ron says "She was talking to Professor Vector, that Aritmanthy witch.." (more or less, sorry I don't have the books handy. Just a thought Neith From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Dec 15 16:35:24 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 16:35:24 -0000 Subject: The title Madam = Mrs. 'Gran' Longbottom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87121 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Janet Anderson" wrote: > Steve originally said: > > >So, in summary, the use of Madam shows respect, but does so without > >regard to or acknowledgement of marital status. In the case of > >spinsters and widows, it's probably best NOT to use any inferences > >to marriage, and in other cases, it just common courtesy. > > Janet replied: > But what about Neville's grandmother? Neville saw his grandfather > die, which makes her a widow, but the nurse at St. Mungo's calls her > "Mrs. Longbottom." ...edited... > > > Janet Anderson bboy_mn: I previously explained that since I thought the Healer and Gran Longbottom were peers to some extent, the formality of 'Madam' wouldn't be used. I explained this is a sub-thread that broke of on a tangent from this main thread. Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:52 am Subject: Use of Madam - Gran and the Healer http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87025 It's also possible that Mrs. 'Gran' Longbottom was well know enough in the wizarding community that most people had referred to her as 'Mrs' for many years and continue with that habit. Also, the use of 'Madam' indicates or implies some social distance between the individuals; some one with whom your relationship and association is very formal and distant. Mrs. 'Gran' Longbottom has been coming to the hospital ward on a weekly basis for over a decade. That, perhaps, has narrowed the social formality between the Healer, other hospital staff, and Mrs. 'Gran' Longbottom. Just a thought. bboy_mn From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Mon Dec 15 17:13:58 2003 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 17:13:58 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Madame_la_F=E9e_(Re:_Use_of_Madam_-"_Madame"_)?= In-Reply-To: <3FDC8C8E.20506@subreality.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87122 Hi all, Forgive me if what follows is nothing new; I didn't read the whole thread concerning ? The use of Madam ?. In French, "dame" can also mean "fairy", though it is not a very common term. It doesn't refer to the small cute fairies Magaret Tarrant used to paint so beautifully. It refers rather to the "human sized" entities. They are beautiful women, and they play a particular part in the stories. They are echoes of the ancient "Fatae", which means that they use to interfere in destinies. When the hero of a story meets one of them, it generally means that his life will change significantly, in a good or a bad way. Now, I would like to add that if you examine what happens to Harry when he meets one of the female characters called "Madam", you can notice that these ladies are always connected with moments of his life that lead him into significant changes, or determine his choices. Let's see: *Madam Malkins She sells him his Hogwarts robes. Doing that, she reintegrates him symbolically to the Wizarding World. Harry is not a wizard already, but at least, he has the uniform of his new condition. At Madam Malkins' he also meets the boy who will become his nemesis, but also will lead him to refuse to become a Slytherin: if he didn't have met Malfoy at Madam Malkins' he wouldn't have learnt about the dark aspect of Slytherin, and his reject of the Snake House would possibly have been less radical. In a certain way, crossing her way makes Harry reject Dark Magic. *Madam Hooch She's connected with the moment when Harry realizes that he has natural flying skills. Her class is the very first sign that Harry is not "an average wizard". Madam Hooch's lesson determines his belonging to the Gryffindor Quidditch team; it makes him a Seeker and provides him with symbolical wings. Without this lesson and its consequences, would Harry have learnt how to generate a Patronus? Crossing her way makes Harry start his quest for his own past, for his own memory (he doesn't catch a Remembral for nothing). *Madam Pomfrey The hospital wing's keeper. It's from her domain from where Harry leaves for his time travel, which gives him the opportunity of mastering for good the Patronus Charm, and of saving Sirius's life. It's the place where the "parting of the ways" between Harry and the Ministry takes place. It's the place where Harry goes to after each adventure's "big moment". It's more or less his fief. That is quite normal if we consider what makes Harry so particular: his incurable scar. Harry crosses her way several times. IMO, she could symbolize the losses he has to suffer (bones, blood, friend, godfather, illusions) in order to become what he has to be. *Madam Rosmerta Thanks to her ignorance concerning what happened in Godric's Hollow, Harry learns about his own past and about the way his parents were betrayed. It puts him face to face with the dilemma he has to solve in the Shrieking Shack: to enforce the Talon's Law, or to overpass it. Without being conscious of what she does when she crosses his way, Madam Rosmerta puts Harry on the way to magnanimity. *Madam Olympe Maxime This "dame" puts indirectly Harry on another noble way: chivalry. Because of her, Hagrid breaks the rules of the Tournament: he shows her the dragons. As he knows that she will tell Fleur, he shows them to Harry at the same time. Then Harry acts with chivalry, when he tells Cedric. He manages to overpass the feeling of rivalry he has towards him. It's the beginning of their partnership, and it prepares the "Graveyard's tragedy". Madam Maxime isn't called that name for nothing. She's another "dame" that determines the greatness of Harry's soul. *Madam Bones She's a member of the Wizengamot. During Harry's hearing, she emphasizes his ability to produce a Patronus. She says that it is an exceptional thing, and so she makes Fudge and Umbridge look at Harry as a dangerous guy. We know the effects of Umbridge's repressive behaviour: Harry becomes a DADA teacher (one of the reasons why other students attend his classes is his ability to produce a Patronus; a "teasing detail" Susan Bones was told by her aunt), and for the very first time, he takes the lead of a group in the fight against the Dark Side. Madam Bones plays a determinant part in Harry's raise as the leader of the Good Side. Okay, maybe it's only coincidence. But it's what we can call a happy coincidence. Those "dames" don't act directly in Harry's destiny. However, they rule places and times that determine his evolution, always in a positive way, though it's not evident at first glance. They are like the ancient Fatae, the divinities who ruled destinies. And as she is after all the greatest Fata of all, The Dame Who Writes The Story, I think that by now I will call JKR "Madam Rowling". Any comments are welcome, Amicalement, Iris From jfaulkne at sas.upenn.edu Mon Dec 15 17:24:47 2003 From: jfaulkne at sas.upenn.edu (Jen Faulkner) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 12:24:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The title Madam = Mrs. 'Gran' Longbottom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87123 On Mon, 15 Dec 2003, Steve wrote: > It's also possible that Mrs. 'Gran' Longbottom was well know enough in > the wizarding community that most people had referred to her as 'Mrs' > for many years and continue with that habit. Dependant on one's arguments about size of the WW/Hogwarts, it's perfectly possible that many people know which women are married, and which are not. The title "Mrs." can only be used of a married woman, but it is possible that many people in the WW know that Gran was (she's widowed, yes?) married, since the Longbottoms seem to be 'old stock', aristocrats whose family relations would be common knowledge, and thus people would know Gran is entitled to "Mrs." Certainly the staff at St. Mungo's would know that, since they come into contact with her frequently. > Also, the use of 'Madam' indicates or implies some social distance > between the individuals; some one with whom your relationship and > association is very formal and distant. Mrs. 'Gran' Longbottom has > been coming to the hospital ward on a weekly basis for over a decade. > That, perhaps, has narrowed the social formality between the Healer, > other hospital staff, and Mrs. 'Gran' Longbottom. I'd disagree here -- I suspect that "Mrs." actually is not a mark of informality at all, but rather a traditional marker of respect for a woman who has achieved a *traditional* high-prestige state: married respectable wife who does not work outside the home. "Madam" seems to me to function (as a title, not a detached apostrophic mode of address, i.e., "That's be five sickles, madam") much like modern (American) "Ms." -- used for women whose marital status is irrelevant on account of their being professionals, working outside the home (in addition to by women who do not want their marital status to affect their title, etc.). But I would expect an older generation of women who do not have an occupation outside the home to in fact resist being called "Madam," to insist upon the proper traditionally-respectful title "Mrs." (My grandmother, for instance, is quite proud of being "Mrs. [her husband's name]," and she does not like to be addressed, either in speaking or writing, as "Ms.") Gran seems to me to be exactly the sort of older woman who would've grown up expecting to be a "Mrs." and continues in that expectation now. It would, I think, be insulting to her to imply that her marital status was irrelevant or questionable -- she *was* married, thankyouverymuch, and she would want that acknowledged. I'd guess. :) --Jen :) * * * * * * Jen's HP fics: http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~jfaulkne/fan/hp.html Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash Yes, I *am* the Deictrix. From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Dec 15 17:25:03 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 17:25:03 -0000 Subject: Is it all Percy's fault? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87124 Every time Percy's name comes up, people blame him for not reconciling with his family despite all the overtures Molly makes. But there's no sign anywhere in OOP that *Arthur* wants to reconcile with Percy and he's the one who insulted Percy by saying that Fudge only promoted him so that Percy could spy on the Weasleys. Now I'm not saying that Percy isn't stubborn and unreasonable, but could it be that the reason he doesn't go to see Arthur in the hospital is that there's no indication whatever that Arthur would be happy to see him? Pippin From siriuslove71 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 15 17:26:03 2003 From: siriuslove71 at yahoo.com (Diana_Sirius_fan) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 17:26:03 -0000 Subject: Which Hogwarts teachers are married ? Xmas clues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87125 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > A piece of seasonal detective work.. > > Professor Lupin (again, only there for one year, and if the staff had > spent all the previous term knowingly eating with a werewolf, I don't > see why they shouldn't have shared their Christmas dinner with him Professor Lupin would have had Christmas dinner with the staff but he was ill.(That time of the month again) Diana From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Dec 15 17:40:48 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 12:40:48 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Which Hogwarts teachers are married ? Xmas clues Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87126 In a message dated 12/15/2003 11:06:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, Carolyn (carolynwhite2 at aol.com) writes: "Professor Vector (we don't know if this is a witch or a wizard, and never mentioned except in passing in any of the books)" Sherrie here: Actually, in PoA Vector is referred to as "that Arithmancy witch", which pretty much clears that up. IMHO, the fact that JKR specifically said that the information on marital status is "classified" indicates that it will have some bearing on the action of books 6 and 7. And for all we know, staff could be married to one another. We don't know what the naming conventions are in the WW - witches may have the same options as they do in the Muggle world, and a professor might choose to retain her own name. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kawfhw at earthlink.net Mon Dec 15 20:47:35 2003 From: kawfhw at earthlink.net (Ken and Faith Wallace) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 12:47:35 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is it all Percy's fault? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87127 This post (see below) got me thinking - could Arthur really afford (at that point) for Percy to visit and reconcile - especially if Percy would be reporting back to Fudge. I'll need to reread the hospital scene with the family, but if my memory serves me correctly, they did have some discussion about Harry and what was going that Arthur might not want the ministry to know about. Faith ______ Aeryn: Officer Aeryn Sun Special Peacekeeper commando Icarian Company Pleisar Regiment. (Farscape, the Premiere) > From: "pippin_999" > Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 17:25:03 -0000 > To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is it all Percy's fault? > > Every time Percy's name comes up, people blame him for not > reconciling with his family despite all the overtures Molly makes. > > But there's no sign anywhere in OOP that *Arthur* wants to > reconcile with Percy and he's the one who insulted Percy by > saying that Fudge only promoted him so that Percy could spy on > the Weasleys. > > Now I'm not saying that Percy isn't stubborn and unreasonable, > but could it be that the reason he doesn't go to see Arthur in the > hospital is that there's no indication whatever that Arthur would > be happy to see him? > > Pippin > > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts > to which you're replying! > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From hieya at hotmail.com Mon Dec 15 17:51:57 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 17:51:57 -0000 Subject: Is it all Percy's fault? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87128 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Every time Percy's name comes up, people blame him for not > reconciling with his family despite all the overtures Molly makes. > > But there's no sign anywhere in OOP that *Arthur* wants to > reconcile with Percy and he's the one who insulted Percy by > saying that Fudge only promoted him so that Percy could spy on > the Weasleys. I think that many important ideas in the books are unspoken. One is love. Characters in this book don't hug much (except Molly and sometimes Hermione) and don't tell each other how they feel. Knowing Arthur Weasley as we do, I have no doubt that he loves all of his children and wants to reconcile with Percy. He didn't insult Percy by telling him that Fudge promoted him to be a spy. Arthur was trying to save his son from an awkward situation. Percy, always ambitious, took his advice the wrong way. Percy shouldn't have allowed his fight with Arthur to affect how he treated the rest of his family. He sent back his Christmas jumper, which his mother knitted. He slammed the door in her face when she went to talk to him. Furthermore, Percy preferred to keep his job and lose his family. That says a lot about him. > Now I'm not saying that Percy isn't stubborn and unreasonable, > but could it be that the reason he doesn't go to see Arthur in the > hospital is that there's no indication whatever that Arthur would > be happy to see him? In the face of what happened to Arthur, a fight with Percy was trivial, and Percy was being petty (to the say the very least) for not visiting his father. People fight, it's a part of life. But to not visit one's own father who has almost been killed by a crazy snake is unexcusable IMHO. Personally, I think Percy was being more than just petty. He couldn't be bothered. I don't think he cared much for his family when Arthur was attacked. However, I am willing to give Percy the benefit of the doubt, and I think his behavior is more of a reflection of his age and lack of life experience than a reflection of his character. Some people do go through phases where they may avoid their families, only to reconcile later. Percy's break from his family is not like Sirius's. greatlit2003 who thinks that Bill will be the traitor From kcawte at ntlworld.com Tue Dec 16 02:04:13 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:04:13 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is it all Percy's fault? References: Message-ID: <002e01c3c378$eb9072b0$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87129 > greatlit2003 > Arthur Weasley as we do, I have no doubt that he loves all of his > children and wants to reconcile with Percy. He didn't insult Percy > by telling him that Fudge promoted him to be a spy. Arthur was > trying to save his son from an awkward situation. Percy, always > ambitious, took his advice the wrong way.> K Arthur may not have *meant* to be insulting - but the insinuation that Percy only got the job because Fudge wants to manipulate him is insulting (even if it might be true). I suspect Arthur wasn't terribly tactful about it either. Percy is *very* ambitious (not necessarily a bad thing) and would have been really pleased to get a promotion. To be told by his father that he didn't get it on merit but was being manipulated - especially when we don't even know if that's right and Arthur has no evidence of it is insulting and I suspect Percy would have found it quite hurtful. Arthur should have waited a while and then suggested that since Fudge doesn't like Arthur or Dumbledore he might now take advantage of Percy's promotion to try and spy on them and suggested Percy is very careful about what he says. K From tcyhunt at earthlink.net Mon Dec 15 18:20:54 2003 From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (Tracy Hunt) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:20:54 -0000 Subject: IS Percy ambitious? (was: Re: Is it all Percy's fault?) In-Reply-To: <002e01c3c378$eb9072b0$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87130 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > > greatlit2003 > > Arthur Weasley as we do, I have no doubt that he loves all of his > > children and wants to reconcile with Percy. He didn't insult Percy > > by telling him that Fudge promoted him to be a spy. Arthur was > > trying to save his son from an awkward situation. Percy, always > > ambitious, took his advice the wrong way.> > > > K > > Arthur may not have *meant* to be insulting - but the insinuation that Percy > only got the job because Fudge wants to manipulate him is insulting (even if > it might be true). I suspect Arthur wasn't terribly tactful about it either. > Percy is *very* ambitious (not necessarily a bad thing) and would have been > really pleased to get a promotion. To be told by his father that he didn't > get it on merit but was being manipulated - especially when we don't even > know if that's right and Arthur has no evidence of it is insulting and I > suspect Percy would have found it quite hurtful. Arthur should have waited a > while and then suggested that since Fudge doesn't like Arthur or Dumbledore > he might now take advantage of Percy's promotion to try and spy on them and > suggested Percy is very careful about what he says. > > K Tcy here: Kathryn, your third sentence raised a flag for me. I'm not sure why I hadn't questioned it before...but here we go... If Percy is *so* ambitious (that is to say, it's a major character trait of his), why was he placed in Gryffindor? Seems to me that his more dominant traits would have to be that of bravery, "daring nerve and chivalry" (SS, US hardcover, pg 118) to be placed in Gryf. If he *were* highly ambitious, wouldn't he have been in Slytherin? Perhaps, he's not really that ambitious. Maybe his motivation is something else? It sounds to me like Percy is young and just rebelling the only way he can. As he matures, he'll see the error of his ways and his Gryffindor qualities will be able to shine. Tcy (not sure I believe this...but it's a thought) From houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Mon Dec 15 18:52:19 2003 From: houseofbohacek at earthlink.net (Gail Bohacek) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 13:52:19 -0500 Subject: (FILK) The Third Task Message-ID: <410-2200312115185219390@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 87131 Continuing my endeavor to filk the musical "Little Shop of Horrors" here... The Third Task (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _It's Just The Gas_ from the musical _Little Shop of Horrors_) (Scene: Enter Harry stage left. He sees the Tri-Wizard Cup, center stage.) Harry: There! It's the Cup! I can see it sitting there from where I've just entered Placed high on a dais in the maze's center The Tri-Wizard Goblet and with it the end of this game There! It's the Cup! Just a hundred yards away and everything's over I'll reach out and grab it and how I have won they'll loudly proclaim Now - I will run! Now - I'll be quick! But now who's this? It's Cedric! (Cedric enters stage left and both make towards the Goblet. However, a giant Spider leaps and moves to attack Cedric who does not notice it. Harry shouts at Cedric to watch out and casts Stupefy upon it. The spider only turns and attacks Harry, biting him on the leg. Both Harry and Cedric cast Stupefy simultaneously upon the Spider which finally drops to the ground.) Cedric: Though we were in competition 'Gainst each other for the prize In this Third Task, you helped me out Just like the time when you told me What the First Task was about You may think I'm being stupid - I'm not blind, I've seen what you did That's the second time you've saved My neck in here - Go and take the Cup, I will not interfere Harry: What we have here is an ethical dilemma True, I'd love to be the winner But I can't now, Diggory If we take it, both you and I Then it means there will be a tie And for Hogwarts it still means a victory Cedric: The one who reaches the Cup first gets The points, that should be you In this Third Task, you deserve it Even if it means the glory For my House will be forfeit But you say that it is better That we take the Cup together Why, the thought of this idea, it makes me grin Are you sure you want to do this? Let's go and approach the dais Are we ready now? For Hogwarts let us - (Harry and Cedric touch the Tri-Wizard Cup together and the stage lights flash as the set is quickly changed from the Maze to the Grave Yard. When the lights finish flashing, Harry and Cedric look around confused) Harry : Win? -Gail B. houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Why Wait? Move to EarthLink. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Dec 15 19:52:03 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 19:52:03 -0000 Subject: Is it all Percy's fault? NOT!!! In-Reply-To: <002e01c3c378$eb9072b0$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87132 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > > greatlit2003 > > ... He (Arthur) didn't insult Percy by telling him that Fudge > > promoted him to be a spy. Arthur was trying to save his son from > > an awkward situation. Percy, always ambitious, took his advice the > > wrong way.> > > > K > > Arthur may not have *meant* to be insulting - but the insinuation > that Percy only got the job because Fudge wants to manipulate him is > insulting. I suspect Arthur wasn't terribly tactful about it either. > > Percy is *very* ambitious... and would have been really pleased to > get a promotion. ... told by his father that he didn't get it on > merit ... - ... I suspect Percy would have found it quite hurtful. > > Arthur should have waited a while and then suggested that since > Fudge doesn't like Arthur or Dumbledore he might now take advantage > of Percy's promotion to try and spy on them and suggested Percy is > very careful about what he says. > > K bboy_mn: I don't see how so many people can mis-read and misunderstand Percy. Percy's driving force in not Ambition, it's Approval. Percy is the 'Good Son', obeys the rules, does everything right, strives for success and achievement, doesn't cause trouble; he is indeed the 'Good Son' and desperate for everyone to recognise him as such. Percy is desperately to the point of disfunction seeking the approval and acknowledgement of his family. Certainly, he wants Molly's approval, but that seems to come easily. I think he wants the approval of his Father and his Brother. He wants them to acknowledge that he did it right, he followed the rules, he didn't make trouble, he didn't have fun and raise hell, ...no he made the noble sacrifice, he set aside the specific interest unlike Bill and Charlie, he set aside the playful nature of Fred and George, he refused to be the baby that Molly watched and fussed over like Ron. No... no... not for Percy, he wasn't going to cause any trouble, he was going to be the 'Good Son'. Unfortunately, the 'Good Son' is one of the many disfunctional roles that a person can play in their family dynamic. Like all disfunctional personalities, it is self-defeating. The more Percy tries to be the 'Good Son', the more Fred and George tease him, and to stop the teasing, Percy is bound and determined to prove that they are doing it wrong and that doing what is right, obeying the rule, achieving success is what a proper gentleman does. Of course, the more determine Percy is to be Percy, the more determined Fred and George are to act out their roles in the family dynamic, and round and round it goes, spiraling every deeper into more disfunctional behavior. Percy did the right thing, despite the rocky aspects of his first job with Crouch, Percy comes out of it. He stuck to his guns, he obeyed the rule, he cooperated with authroities, and ultimately being the "Good Son" paid off, as he knew it would. His name was clear (in his mind), his skill, knowledge, dedication, perseverance, all round 'good' behavior, and trust in the system were acknowledged. Now Percy has the Crowning Achievement of the Percy 'Good Son' school of correct and proper behavior; he has been promoted to the position of PERSONAL ASSISTANT to the most powerful and influential person in the wizard world; the MINISTER OF MAGIC himself. (The all caps reflect how Percy see this in his mind.) Certainly there can be no denying him the recognition he craves now. Given this stunning success, certainly even Fred and George will have to acknowledge that indeed being the 'Good Son' paid off big time. They will all have to see that after all these year, Percy knew what he was doing. Finally, that respect and recognition that he so desperately carves. How could they possible deny him now? How? And what does Percy get after a lifetime of sacrifice and hard work? What does he get for his stunning achievement? What does he get for so masterfully pulling victory from the jaws of defeat? NOTHING! Not a single, 'Well done Percy', 'Good work', 'congradulations'. Ooooohhh Nooooo... not a drop of recognition ...not a shred of respect ...not so much as the slightest hint that these idiot see how much he has sacrificed and how hard he has work ...how long, hard, and selflessly Percy has worked for the good of his family. Damn, why didn'they just knee him in the groin? Could they have possible made his heart ache more? Could his own family possble have betrayed him more deeply? So what does Percy do? He dives hopelessly deeper into his role as the 'Good Son', absolutely bound and determine to prove that being good, obeying the rules, following the duly elected leaders of their world, standing by his government, not making trouble is the right way for a proper gentleman, a successful man, and 'Good Son' to behave. He's doing what is right, he is doing the proper thing, how could this plan possibly not work? How could his family have abondon him? How could they not recognise what he had done? How could he ever get rid of this dispare that is crushing him? How could doing the right thing possbily have gone so bad? These are the question Percy runs over and over in his mind, during those desperate and lonely nights in his dank London flat. Why does being good, always turn out so bad? Poor, poor Percy... a boy to be pitied not scorned. This is how I see the inner workings of Percy's mostly subconscious mind. As far as Percy earning his Gryffindor 'wings', please stand by, the story is not over yet, and I have no doubt that before it is over, we will see great things from Percy. That IS my story and I AM sticking to it. bboy_mn From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Mon Dec 15 20:20:27 2003 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 20:20:27 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Ooops!_I_forgot_Madam_Pince_(Madame_la_F=E9e_)?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87133 Here it is: * Madam Pince The library's keeper. Apparently, she's not here to help the students. She seems to share the knowledge she keeps in her library very sparingly. In the very first book, Harry has to use the Invisibility Cloak and to break the rules of the Restricted Area in order to find some information about Nicolas Flamel, because she usually doesn't want to provide the students with the information they need. Thanks to her, Harry dares breaking openly the rules of his school, he learns to disobey willingly. And the continuation of the series shows that in some times, disobedience can be helpful (see what happens with the Ministry). Two Knuts, Iris From derek at rhinobunny.com Mon Dec 15 21:17:06 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 13:17:06 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ooops! I forgot Madam Pince (Madame la =?iso-8859-1?Q?F=E9e?= ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031215131027.025ff170@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87134 Iris wrote: >* Madam Pince >The library's keeper. Apparently, she's not here to help the >students. She seems to share the knowledge she keeps in her library >very sparingly. In the very first book, Harry has to use the >Invisibility Cloak and to break the rules of the Restricted Area in >order to find some information about Nicolas Flamel, because she >usually doesn't want to provide the students with the information >they need. Derek: Well, in fairness to Madam Pince, they don't *ask* her about Flamel. :) "He [Harry], Ron and Hermione had already agreed they'd better not ask Madam Pince where they could find Flamel. They were sure she'd be able to tell them, but they couldn't risk Snape hearing what they were up to." (SS/PS12) - Derek From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Dec 15 21:34:50 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 21:34:50 -0000 Subject: HP and the democratic equilibrium(Re: Umbridge, brooms and DEs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87135 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: Ali: > Theft in English Law involves "dishonest appropriation of another > property with the intention to permanently deprive" Geoff: Precisely. Ali: > It is not dishonest if Umbridge had the legal authority to do it. > Certainly, British pupils would expect their teachers to confiscate > property that they owned at school. Nor has Umbridge appropriated > the broom for herself. She has stopped Harry from using it though. > Geoff: There is also English law about taking away property without the owner's consent. I wonder whether Umbridge does have the legal authority to do it. British pupils might possibly expect things to be confiscated, but as I said in a previous post, in my own experience of 32 years in the state sector, I never kept anything beyond the end of the week at most because confiscated items usually got in the way, There is also a distinct difference between a catapult or a water pistol or a farting cushion and a Firebolt, which is the Porsche of the broom world, highly expensive and rare (and even a Walkman in the real world). I have known of cases locally where I now live where parents have arrived in high dudgeon because a mobile phone has been taken and have threatened legal action. Ali: > Given that Umbridge kept the brooms in her office, and then later in > the dungeons, I believed that although Harry would be unable to use > it, he was still considered the owner of his broom. the broom would > not be used by or appropriated by anybody else. > I believe it is arguable whether Umbridge would have kept Harry's > broom after he had left Hogwarts. Geoff: I reiterate what I said previously. The Quidditch incident had nothing to do with brooms. Umbridge applied a sanction ? that of banning ? which was relevant to the affair. To then withdraw the brooms had nothing to do with the incident; it was a spiteful attempt to upset Harry. Look at the canon: "She rolled up the parchment and put it back into her handbag /still smiling/ (my emphasis). `So I really think I will have to ban these two from playing Qudditch ever again,' she said, looking from Harry to George and back again. Harry felt the Snitch fluttering madly in his hand. `Ban us?' he said and his voice sounded strangely distant. `From playing..... Ever again?' `Yes, Mr.Potter, I think a lifelong ban ought to do the trick,' said Umbridge, her smile widening still further as she watched him struggle to comprehend what she had said. '..... I will want their broomsticks confiscated of course; I shall keep them safely in my office to make sure there is no infringement of my ban......' And with a look of the utmost satisfaction, Umbridge left the room leaving a horrified silence in her wake." (OOTP "The Lion and the Serpent" p. 369 UK edition) I believe that she knows that Harry has not realised that she cannot ban him beyond Hogwarts and is heaping the most horrendous mental abuse on him. I also believe that she intends to hang on to the Firebolt just as long as she can. I drew a theoretical parallel with a professional footballer being banned and told he couldn't even kick a football which would be both ludicrous and unworkable. There is no/valid or legal/ basis for her to remove the broomstick because, if he is banned, he can't play Quidditch but he still retains the right to fly a broom. So the broom is being held for what is effectively an unenforceable reason, if challenged. Sadly, because he feels estranged from Dumbledore, the only adult he might confide in would perhaps be Sirius and he is not in a position to start action against Umbridge for wrongful treatment or removal without the owner's consent. But of course, we have already discussed the Wizarding World's shortcomings until we are blue in the face in terms of fairness and perceived judicial good practice, looking at Harry's arraignment before the Wizengamot and the evidence we have of malpractice by people such as Crouch in the past. Geoff From derek at rhinobunny.com Mon Dec 15 21:50:31 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 13:50:31 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and the democratic equilibrium(Re: Umbridge, brooms and DEs) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031215134120.02633650@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87136 Geoff Bannister wrote: >I reiterate what I said previously. The Quidditch incident had >nothing to do with brooms. Umbridge applied a sanction ? that of >banning ? which was relevant to the affair. To then withdraw the >brooms had nothing to do with the incident; it was a spiteful attempt >to upset Harry. Derek: I totally agree. It's not like Umbridge was confiscating something that wasn't allowed at the school, or something that was being used to disrupt classes, etc. What she did is completely different. Consider this: A student at a real-world school is an outstanding violin player. She's the first-chair in the school orchestra, and probably has the talent to be a professional violin player if she chooses to be. Her parents have given her an expensive, master-crafted violin. At some point, she breaks some rules and crosses the school's administrator. For her actions, she is kicked out of the school orchestra. Fine. It's the school's right to determine who can participate in extra-curricular activities. However, the administrator also somehow imagines he has the right to *take her violin away!* This is ridiculous. No one would stand for this, IMO. The violin itself breaks no school rules, isn't the school's property, isn't being used to disrupt classes, etc. This isn't normal school discipline, this is outright thievery. And this is perfectly analogous to what Umbridge does to Harry, IMO. - Derek From kcawte at ntlworld.com Tue Dec 16 06:00:41 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 22:00:41 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and the democratic equilibrium(Re: Umbridge, brooms and DEs) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20031215134120.02633650@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: <002201c3c399$efb5fd80$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87137 Derek: At some point, she breaks some rules and crosses the school's administrator. For her actions, she is kicked out of the school orchestra. Fine. It's the school's right to determine who can participate in extra-curricular activities. However, the administrator also somehow imagines he has the right to *take her violin away!* K As long as he/she was planning on giving it back at the end of term (or whenever the student went home) I wouldn't have a problem with it. If she wants to keep it from being confiscated for any reason she shouldn't have taken it to the school in the first place. *shrugs* Not really seeing the problem - Harry (and other students) are allowed to bring the brooms to school at the discretion of the school (they're forbidden for first years after all so the school is granting them a privilege - the use of their own brooms). Since being allowed to have the broom at school is a privilege granted by the school it is within the rights of the school (as represented by Umbridge unfortunately in this instance) to revoke that privilege. K From lhuntley at fandm.edu Mon Dec 15 22:24:45 2003 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 17:24:45 -0500 Subject: HPforGrownups] HP and the democratic equilibrium(Re: Umbridge, brooms and DEs) In-Reply-To: <002201c3c399$efb5fd80$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: <7C72FB7A-2F4D-11D8-A524-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 87138 > K > As long as he/she was planning on giving it back at the end of term (or > whenever the student went home) I wouldn't have a problem with it. If > she > wants to keep it from being confiscated for any reason she shouldn't > have > taken it to the school in the first place. Wait. By that reasoning, you could say the same thing about *anything* a student brings to school, right down to their *clothing*! Esp. when attending a boarding school, there *must* be line drawn between what the school can and can't take from a student. Lemme tell you, I attended a boarding school and had the administrators decided (in response to rule-breaking on my part) to start confiscating items that had no part in my rule-breaking (i.e. books, pillows, toothbrush, etc.), there would be quite an uproar. And this *was* a boarding school in which the students had practically no rights whatsoever -- we weren't even legally allowed to have a Student Constitution (useless bit of fancy language for those who haven't heard of them, close cousin to the Mission Statement in terms of sheer meaninglessness). In the violin analogy, presumably the violin had nothing to do with the student's rule-breaking, and therefore administrators would be out of line when confiscating it. They might as well be confiscating her shoes or her hairbrush or her shower caddy. It makes no sense. In Harry's case, whether or not the broom was connected with the rule-breaking and punishment is more fuzzy. It wasn't *directly* involved in the incident itself, but if the punishment was "no more Quidditch *ever*," Umbridge could argue that in order to enforce the ban, she'd *have* to confiscate the broom. (And I do think Umbridge meant for Harry never to play any form of Quidditch again -- at least while she could help it.) Laura (who is now stuck wondering if the administrators at her old school *could*, legally, confiscate her shower caddy.) From kcawte at ntlworld.com Tue Dec 16 06:36:39 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 22:36:39 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HPforGrownups] HP and the democratic equilibrium(Re: Umbridge, brooms and DEs) References: <7C72FB7A-2F4D-11D8-A524-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu> Message-ID: <004001c3c39e$ff0f55b0$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87139 > > K > > As long as he/she was planning on giving it back at the end of term (or > > whenever the student went home) I wouldn't have a problem with it. If > > she > > wants to keep it from being confiscated for any reason she shouldn't > > have > > taken it to the school in the first place. > Laura > Wait. By that reasoning, you could say the same thing about *anything* > a student brings to school, right down to their *clothing*! K Not if you read the whole argument I made. My point was that being allowed to have a broom at school (and similarly an instrument) as opposed to haing to use the school version is a privilege - and pricileges can be withdrawn at any time *especially* as a punishment. Being allowed to have a broom at school is to me similar to being allowed to go to Hogsmeade or being allowed to play in the quidditch team and as such not a right but rather a privilege granted by the school and subject to being withdrawn by the school if they feel like it. Now I'm not saying that the punishment was fair or in proportion to the 'crime' - just that it was within the rights of the school staff. Whether the broom was related to what he was being punished for is irrelevant, while it is a nice touch, punishments don't have to fit the crime, just you know punish. The Forbidden Forest had nothing to do with the Trio and Draco's punishment in the first year but they were sent into it with Hagrid as punishment. K From drednort at alphalink.com.au Mon Dec 15 22:44:36 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:44:36 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and the democratic equilibrium(Re: Umbridge, brooms and DEs) In-Reply-To: References: <1071345013.12064.41.camel@stone.homenetwork> Message-ID: <3FDED404.1206.A001AB@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 87140 On 15 Dec 2003 at 15:06, Ali wrote: > It is not dishonest if Umbridge had the legal authority to do it. > Certainly, British pupils would expect their teachers to confiscate > property that they owned at school. Nor has Umbridge appropriated > the broom for herself. She has stopped Harry from using it though. This is a report of part of something I posted on OT - it seems other people think it's ontopic here, so I'll stick it in here. First of all, I'm in Australia, just for the record - which also does to a great extent share the Common Law basis of British law. Now - we know Wizarding Law is not identical to British Law (English or Scottish) though we don't know the precise differences. But given that the Wizarding World was does seem to have had rather close contact with mainstream Britain prior to around 1692 - well, I think we can assume some similarities. But there are important differences - for example, at Hogwarts, it seems to be *legal* for students to be beaten with horsewhips - while corporal punishment was still legal in British independent schools at the time the Harry Potter books are set, that would legally have gone too far. But anyway - confiscation. I *really* can't see any reason why teachers at Hogwarts wouldn't be allowed to confiscate things like broomsticks - either legally or socially. In fact I would say that for most students at Hogwarts, this ability on the part of teachers would seem virtually like a fact of life - not something you question, even if you resented it. I base that on two things. (1) I do have some understanding of how laws work in this area. (2) I experienced life in a British style boarding school in the late 1980s/early 1990s - so I think I have a reasonable grasp on the likely attitudes have in such schools. A lot of people, I've noticed don't seem to understand that while Hogwarts is certainly a very unusual school in many ways, in a lot of ways, it's a fairly typical British boarding school with fairly typical British boarding school attitudes (in fact, if you want to get technical, JKR seems to have drawn on the British Boarding School story tradition - from the late 19th Century onwards, the 'Boarding School Story' has been a staple in British children's literature. It is a *massive* genre of hundreds - probably thousands - of books, which millions of children have read over the years - and it has its own rules and conventions and the Harry Potter books follow these pretty well.) I don't want to go into massive analysis of this point - but I quite often see threads in various Harry Potter forums from people who obviously have a limited understanding of the tradition the books are set within in. For example, Americans who can't understand why there are no cheerleaders at Hogwarts, or who refer to Graduation etc - just cultural differences. I grew up reading British school stories - so I'm very familiar with those traditions. I also attended a very exclusive British- style school which reinforced a lot of them. So when I look at the HP books, I think I see things some people don't. And with regards to confiscation - while students might certainly resent it, I doubt many would think that the teacher really had no right to do it. And purely legalistically, I would think she probably did. Common Law is the key here - the doctrine of in loco parentis (where a teacher, or any other adult in authority, is actually able to act 'in place of the parent') is a Common Law principle and I would expect it is one that does apply at Hogwarts. In confiscating property for a student at Hogwarts, a teacher is not acting as a law enforcement officer - they are acting as a parent. A parent does have the right to take something off a child - so too does a teacher acting in loco parentis - and in a boarding school, where children seem to have fairly limited contact with their children (and that is true of Hogwarts), in loco parentis is likely to be a very real principle. Taking a child's property and selling it - that would almost certainly be theft. Taking a child's property to temporarily (even for a fairly long period) deprive them of it as a punishment wouldn't even come close. While bikes are almost certainly not as valuable as Harry's broom - well, at my school, if a bike owning boarder misbehaved, it wasn't that uncommon for their bike to be locked away for a few weeks or even a term. And while a particular case might be viewed with resentment, anger, or a perception that that particular case was unfair, I don't think the idea that the teacher didn't have the *right* to do it, would have occurred to most of us. Of course they had the right. They were a teacher. Some teachers abused their rights, sure - but the right was there and seemed almost like a force of nature. I honestly think many Hogwarts students would see it precisely the same way. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From derek at rhinobunny.com Mon Dec 15 22:36:27 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 14:36:27 -0800 Subject: Umbridge the Thief (was Re: HP and the democratic equilibrium) In-Reply-To: <002201c3c399$efb5fd80$a6706751@kathryn> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20031215134120.02633650@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031215141449.02816db0@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87141 Kathryn Cawte wrote: >As long as he/she was planning on giving it back at the end of term (or >whenever the student went home) I wouldn't have a problem with it. If she >wants to keep it from being confiscated for any reason she shouldn't have >taken it to the school in the first place. Derek: So it would be okay for the administrator to walk up to a student and say, "You know, I don't like the cut of your jib. Therefore, I'm taking all your money, your expensive wristwatch, your photo of your family... in fact, I'm taking everything you have that isn't directly related to schoolwork. But don't worry... I'll give it all back to you at the end of the term in six months, so that makes it all okay." Do the students have *any* rights at all? It seems like all the onus is being put on the student. (If the student didn't want his autographed photo of Gilderoy Lockhart confiscated, he shouldn't have brought it.) Doesn't it make just as much sense to place it on the school? (If the school didn't want the student to have an autographed photo of Gilderoy Lockhart, they shouldn't have allowed the student to bring it.) I guess I'm just having trouble buying the idea that the psychopathically cruel and capricious Dolores Umbridge is somehow within her rights to take a student's personal effects simply because she doesn't like the student. I consider this further evidence that she is evil and wrong, therefore I don't accept that it's technically allowed. :) - Derek From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Mon Dec 15 22:53:53 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 16:53:53 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Potters as their own Secret Keepers? In-Reply-To: <004c01c3c191$ed6258d0$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> Message-ID: <000201c3c35e$5326f4f0$bcec79a5@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 87142 Iggy here: *snipping everything since you know what's been posted.* Wouldn't this have worked if James was Secret Keeper for Lilly, and Lilly was Secret Keeper for James? They were going to stay together anyhow, and even if one had to go to the store, the other would be safe. Right? And either could be Secret Keeper for Harry... then it would all be self sustaining. (If you want to have more fun, have Harry keep for Lilly, Lilly keep for James, and James keep for Harry... After all, it doesn't say that you have to be AWARE of the secret to keep it, does it?) Iggy McSnurd From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Dec 15 22:57:51 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 22:57:51 -0000 Subject: HP and the democratic equilibrium(Re: Umbridge, brooms and DEs) In-Reply-To: <002201c3c399$efb5fd80$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87143 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: K: > As long as he/she was planning on giving it back at the end of term (or > whenever the student went home) I wouldn't have a problem with it. If she > wants to keep it from being confiscated for any reason she shouldn't have > taken it to the school in the first place. Geoff: My, my, I have popped a few felines into Trafalgar Square haven't I? Perhaps I should apply for Kneasy's job. (1) I have serious doublts about prising the broom off Umbridge. (2) That's a bit ridiculous as I think someone else has commented. It could apply to a bar of soap, a bag, a pair of pyjamas ad inf. You don't take things to school in the anticipation that they will be confiscated. K: > Not really seeing the problem - Harry (and other students) are allowed to > bring the brooms to school at the discretion of the school (they're > forbidden for first years after all so the school is granting them a > privilege - the use of their own brooms). Since being allowed to have the > broom at school is a privilege granted by the school it is within the rights > of the school (as represented by Umbridge unfortunately in this instance) to > revoke that privilege. Geoff: Umbridge is actually revoking the privilege of playing in the Gryffindor Quidditch team, not bringing a broom to school or using it. Not the same thing. Picking up on another of your comments. Harry, Draco and co were not sent into the Forbidden Forest as a punishment in PS. They were sent to serve a detention with Hagrid who just happened to be going into the Forest. They might just as easily found themselves repotting plants with Madam Sprout or polishing the school brooms with Madam Hooch. Geoff From lhuntley at fandm.edu Mon Dec 15 23:03:24 2003 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:03:24 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and the democratic equilibrium(Re: Umbridge, brooms and DEs) In-Reply-To: <004001c3c39e$ff0f55b0$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87144 > Laura >> Wait. By that reasoning, you could say the same thing about >> *anything* >> a student brings to school, right down to their *clothing*! > > K > > Not if you read the whole argument I made. My point was that being > allowed > to have a broom at school (and similarly an instrument) as opposed to > haing > to use the school version is a privilege - and pricileges can be > withdrawn > at any time *especially* as a punishment. Being allowed to have a > broom at > school is to me similar to being allowed to go to Hogsmeade or being > allowed > to play in the quidditch team and as such not a right but rather a > privilege > granted by the school and subject to being withdrawn by the school if > they > feel like it. Now I'm not saying that the punishment was fair or in > proportion to the 'crime' - just that it was within the rights of the > school > staff. You know, I resent the implication that I didn't read your entire post. ^_~ Actually, I suppose I was thrown off by the violin analogy (which, as I discussed in my last post, isn't really the same situation anyway) in which having the violin definitely wasn't a privilege conferred by the school. Although, *is* setting a punishment that is far too severe for the crime really within the rights of the school (I'm talking about banning Harry "forever", not just the confiscation of his broom)? I suppose this is a hard question to answer, esp. as schools in the US (where I'm from) and the UK differ so greatly, and Hogwarts may not even follow the form of a UK school down to the legal details anyway. I suspect that in a strictly legal sense, Umbridge was well within her rights as an educator in the Wizarding World. However, I think if she had tried to do something so unjust to say -- Draco, for instance, Lucius could have gotten the punishment revoked rather easily (and not just because Lucius could probably get the most reasonable, fair punishment revoked if he liked). I agree with Shaun, however, that it is unlikely -- given the social relationship between Hogwarts students and professors -- that any of this would occurred to Harry. Laura From drednort at alphalink.com.au Mon Dec 15 23:03:39 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 10:03:39 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and the democratic equilibrium(Re: Umbridge, brooms and DEs) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031215134120.02633650@mail.rhinobunny.com> References: Message-ID: <3FDED87B.5601.B170D5@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 87145 On 15 Dec 2003 at 13:50, Derek Hiemforth wrote: > This is ridiculous. No one would stand for this, IMO. The violin > itself breaks no school rules, isn't the school's property, isn't > being used to disrupt classes, etc. This isn't normal school > discipline, this is outright thievery. > > And this is perfectly analogous to what Umbridge does to Harry, IMO. I take your point, Derek - but as somebody who was at a British style boarding school in the late 1980s and the early 1990s, I can tell you that if at my school, the situation you described had happened, we *WOULD* have stood for it. We wouldn't really have realised we had a choice. In such a case, it's quite likely we would have approached the teacher and tried to explain the situation to them and explain we thought it was unfair. We might even have gone over the teachers head (if there was anybody more senior available) and made a formal protest. But in the end, if the teacher stood firm, we'd have pretty much accepted it. Even if we thought it was unfair. Now not all schools are like that, and not all students are compliant like that - but I think a lot of people might not grasp what some schools are like in that regard. There are a lot of schools - particularly traditional boarding schools - where the students view the rules as ironclad and almost as forces of nature - that doesn't mean they always obey them - but the idea of actually *questioning* them may seem very very alien. And I can certainly see that applying at Hogwarts - mostly because the students who are there currently have very limited experience of dealing with capricious authority - they are used to Dumbledore being in charge, and the vast majority of teachers (exception Snape) being fair and reasonable. That's the type of environment when the rules start to seem very natural, and very solid things that you don't really question. I was allergic to the material my school trousers were made of. Every winter I suffered *incredible* amounts of discomfort, and broke out in rashes because of that material. But I wore those trousers for two and a half years, never ever considering for a moment that if I told someone about the problem, something might be done about it. I knew the school rules were that we wore that brand, and that brand alone - and it honestly never even occurred to me that there might be an exception made. Things like that aren't that uncommon. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From drednort at alphalink.com.au Mon Dec 15 23:03:39 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 10:03:39 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and the democratic equilibrium(Re: Umbridge, brooms and DEs) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FDED87B.2546.B16FE3@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 87146 On 15 Dec 2003 at 21:34, Geoff Bannister wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > > Ali: > > Theft in English Law involves "dishonest appropriation of another > > property with the intention to permanently deprive" > > Geoff: > Precisely. > > Ali: > > It is not dishonest if Umbridge had the legal authority to do it. > > Certainly, British pupils would expect their teachers to confiscate > > property that they owned at school. Nor has Umbridge appropriated > > the broom for herself. She has stopped Harry from using it though. > > > > Geoff: > There is also English law about taking away property without the > owner's consent. Which generally would not apply to a teacher in a private school temporarily depriving a student of their property while acting in loco parentis. > I wonder whether Umbridge does have the legal authority to do it. > British pupils might possibly expect things to be confiscated, but as > I said in a previous post, in my own experience of 32 years in the > state sector, I never kept anything beyond the end of the week at > most because confiscated items usually got in the way, There is also > a distinct difference between a catapult or a water pistol or a > farting cushion and a Firebolt, which is the Porsche of the broom > world, highly expensive and rare (and even a Walkman in the real > world). I have known of cases locally where I now live where parents > have arrived in high dudgeon because a mobile phone has been taken > and have threatened legal action. Umbridge almost certainly does have that legal authority - she certainly does under traditional British Common Law - we can't know for certain with Wizarding Law, but I don't see any reason to doubt Hogwarts teachers have less powers than British teachers traditionally did. In loco parentis is an *incredibly* powerful Common Law principle - and was even more so in the past. A teacher under British Common Law did have virtually the full powers of a parent over their students. (I'm simplifying here, yes). I was at a boarding school in the early 1990s - and teachers could *and did* temporarily (up to a term generally - you could often get it back earlier by behaving yourself and then begging after a few weeks) valuable property as a disciplinary measure. Generally speaking, that property had something to do with the behaviour - but the closest equivalent we had to brooms were the bikes some of us had, and these were quite commonly locked up - more or less as a way of restricting your activities. If Umbridge had taken action to *permanently deprive* Harry of the broom, by disposing of it, or selling it, or something similar, she'd have crossed a real line - but short of that, I'm fairly sure she was acting perfectly legally - she would have been in a normal British boarding school - and I suspect Hogwarts has even less concern for their students rights in those areas. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From drednort at alphalink.com.au Mon Dec 15 23:13:25 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 10:13:25 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Umbridge the Thief (was Re: HP and the democratic equilibrium) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031215141449.02816db0@mail.rhinobunny.com> References: <002201c3c399$efb5fd80$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: <3FDEDAC5.8263.BA6205@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 87147 On 15 Dec 2003 at 14:36, Derek Hiemforth wrote: > Kathryn Cawte wrote: > >As long as he/she was planning on giving it back at the end of term (or > >whenever the student went home) I wouldn't have a problem with it. If she > >wants to keep it from being confiscated for any reason she shouldn't have > >taken it to the school in the first place. > > Derek: > So it would be okay for the administrator to walk up to a student and > say, "You know, I don't like the cut of your jib. Therefore, I'm taking > all your money, your expensive wristwatch, your photo of your family... > in fact, I'm taking everything you have that isn't directly related to > schoolwork. But don't worry... I'll give it all back to you at the end > of the term in six months, so that makes it all okay." Would it be OK? No. Would it probably be legal? Yes. Does it happen? It did to me. (Form III - basically I wasn't doing the schoolwork expected of me. So they decided to deprive me of *all* distractions. Everything I owned was taken away unless and until my schoolwork improved, unless I actually needed it for classes. In my case, it was only for a week - because I got the message - but if I hadn't - ooh boy.) > Do the students have *any* rights at all? It seems like all the onus is > being put on the student. (If the student didn't want his autographed > photo of Gilderoy Lockhart confiscated, he shouldn't have brought it.) > Doesn't it make just as much sense to place it on the school? (If the > school didn't want the student to have an autographed photo of Gilderoy > Lockhart, they shouldn't have allowed the student to bring it.) Students have rights? "You have the right to remain silent!" Seriously - really, no, for a long time, students really didn't have rights beyond very basic things like the right to be fed, to a minimal level of comfort, not to be beaten to the extent that permanent injury was caused... In more recent history, students have gradually acquired more and more rights - but Hogwarts seems a rather traditional school. Remember this is a place where it seems that in the relatively recent past, students could be hung from chains, and where apparently the Headmaster or Headmistress can legally have students beaten with whips (Dumbledore seems to have *chosen* to stop those punishments - but they still seem to be legal). > I guess I'm just having trouble buying the idea that the psychopathically > cruel and capricious Dolores Umbridge is somehow within her rights to > take a student's personal effects simply because she doesn't like the > student. I consider this further evidence that she is evil and wrong, > therefore I don't accept that it's technically allowed. :) She is evil and wrong. That doesn't mean though that she doesn't have the legal power to do these things. And it doesn't mean these things would *necessarily* be wrong in the hands of a good teacher. Remember - Professor McGonnagall took Harry's broom away for quite a considerable amount of time in Prisoner of Azkaban - that wasn't confiscation, there were other reasons for it - but it certainly wasn't theft. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From lyyved at earthlink.net Mon Dec 15 23:27:30 2003 From: lyyved at earthlink.net (Lynn Eddy) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:27:30 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Possible Threat to the HPFGU Family of Lists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <40B49118-2F56-11D8-AC3B-000393BC2348@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 87148 Please let me know if there is anything I can do. (sign a pedition, write Yahoo, etc.) Sincerely, Laura Peregrine (AKA Lynn Eddy) On Sunday, December 7, 2003, at 07:30 PM, hpfgumoderator wrote: > Dear Members of the Harry Potter for Grownups Family of Lists, > > We regret the need to interrupt with a post of this nature. > > For the past several months, we (the List Administration Team) have > been handling the disruption of several of the HP lists by an > individual or individuals, and it has gotten to a point which we > feel to be harassment. In addition, a threat has been made offlist > to at least one member of the current admin team, and we are > concerned that harassment of list members may have extended to > others beyond admin team members. > > Until now, we have been handling this within the admin team, and > have done our best to avoid burdening the lists with this situation - > we felt it was an administrative problem, and so should be dealt > with internally. Recently, however, we received a message which made > it much more than just a list admin problem. > > We were contacted via the owners address with a frank threat against > the lists, indicating that, unless certain demands are met, an > irreversible action will be taken that will damage the HPFGU list > community. > > The action was not specified; however, one of our auxiliary HPFGU > lists was recently deleted by Yahoo, and the sender of this e-mail > apparently took credit for that action, implying that "Terms of Use > violations" were reported. Other owner messages have made reference > to "holes" in our security. > > This threat may be as innocuous as the formation of an alternate > list. However, we cannot ignore the possibility that serious harm > may be intended to the HPFGU family of lists, and we felt it only > fair that you should be alerted. This is your list community too. > > Some of us are concerned that we are being manipulated into > complaining on the public HPFGU lists, or forwarding the emails, so > a complaint for a violation of Yahoo's Terms of Use could be made. > For that reason, we are not providing any names in this email. > > As our experience with the auxiliary group showed, Yahoo does not > give notice before they delete a group. While it might seem > incredible that they would delete a group with nearly 90,000 posts > and three-plus years of history without investigating the details of > an accusation, we have to be cautious, and beg Yahoo to listen to > both sides of the story if a complaint is made. > > We are doing whatever we can to improve security on the lists. We > will do our best to avoid any disruption of services, and we ask > your understanding if odd things should happen to the lists. We > intend to do whatever we can to prevent any damage to the HPFGU > family of lists, including deletion of any other lists, should that > be the form this threat takes. > > However, should any HPFGU list(s) become inaccessible, you can visit > The Lexicon at > http://www.hp-lexicon.org for status updates and, if necessary, > relocation information. > > Finally, in closing, we wish to apologize. We know the > unresponsiveness of the admin team has been a source of frustration > to many of you. It has been a source of frustration to us as well. > We each have only so many hours to devote to HP, and over the past > few months, most of them have been devoted to dealing with this > situation. It has taken our time, energy, and enthusiasm away from > our proper tasks: the fostering and running of these lists. And > until this situation is resolved, some of our time must continue to > be devoted to dealing with it. So we ask your continuing patience > and understanding, while we do everything we can to protect this > family of lists. > > Sincerely, > > The HPforGrownups List Administration Team > > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ---------------------~--> > Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark > Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & > Canada. > http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 > http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/s4wxlB/TM > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > ~-> > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material > from posts to which you're replying! > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From kcawte at ntlworld.com Tue Dec 16 07:32:15 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 23:32:15 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and the democratic equilibrium(Re: Umbridge, brooms and DEs) References: Message-ID: <007401c3c3a6$baf37250$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87149 Laura > You know, I resent the implication that I didn't read your entire post. > ^_~ Actually, I suppose I was thrown off by the violin analogy > (which, as I discussed in my last post, isn't really the same situation > anyway) in which having the violin definitely wasn't a privilege > conferred by the school. > K Sorry - I should have said 'you missed my point' rather than implying you didn't read it. Actually being allowed to bring one's own instrument *might* be a privilege - I could quite understand a school not wanting to take responsibility for having such a valuable piece of property at school where anything might happen to it and they'd get the blame ... hey that *does* fit the broom idea, I only realised that it's quite apt as I was typing. Laura > Although, *is* setting a punishment that is far too severe for the > crime really within the rights of the school (I'm talking about banning > Harry "forever", not just the confiscation of his broom)? I suppose > this is a hard question to answer, esp. as schools in the US (where I'm > from) and the UK differ so greatly, and Hogwarts may not even follow > the form of a UK school down to the legal details anyway. > K Well that's an awkward question - I mean it was obviously *unfair* for her to do what she did, but so are some of Snape's punishments (and draco would no doubt have thought being punished by Minerva in PS was unfair - I'd disagree there but *shrugs* I'm sure if anyone wanted to they could put up a good argument for his case). And no she didn't imo have the right, or the ability for that matter, to ban Harry forever since after he leaves school the school has no authority over him and I can't see the Ministry for Sports (or whatever it is - I don't have the Quidditch book around to check) refusing to let him play for a team just because one of his teachers wanted to punish him - even if the teacher *was* working for Fudge. Infact had she tried I think they'd have just assumed she was nuts. Again she probably had the right to stop him ever playing at school - but I doubt any of the other teachers will enforce that (well Snape might try because he does seem to have an ongoing competition with Minerva over the quidditch results). Do teachers have the right to be unfair? K From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Mon Dec 15 23:53:07 2003 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 23:53:07 -0000 Subject: Is Krum Short? / Lots about Percy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87150 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > > I have touble finding any place where Krum is described as tall. He's > only in GoF, and I found only two places: > > When Harry goes into the little room where the other Champions are > waiting (chapter 17): "Harry didn't know how to explain what had > just happened. He just stood there, looking at the three champions. > It struck him how very tall all of them were." > > When Krum confronts Harry about rivalry over Hermione (chapter 28): > "But Krum glowered at him, and Harry, somehow struck anew by > how tall Krum was, elaborated. 'We're friends. She's not my > girlfriend and she never has been. It's just that Skeeter woman > making things up.' > (snip) > Krum looked slightly happier. He stared at Harry for a few seconds, > then said, 'You fly very well. I vos votching at the first task.' > 'Thanks,' said Harry, grinning broadly, and suddenly feeling much > taller himself." > > I read both those as expressing Harry's emotion, that he is feeling > intimidated about being so much younger than the others. The > difference between age 18 and age 14 is fairly significant, so Krum > could even be short for his age and still be tall compared to Harry, > because Harry was short for his own age at that time (he shoots up > between GoF and OoP). "K": I guess it's all in how one chooses to read those two examples. I see them as describing Krum being physically tall. We do know that Harry is short for his age. I think these examples are again pointing out how small Harry really is. As you pointed out earlier: GoF: >When Harry goes into the little room where the other Champions are >waiting (chapter 17): "Harry didn't know how to explain what had >just happened. He just stood there, looking at the three champions. >It struck him how very tall all of them were." "K": Harry looks at the three of them (Krum included) and is struck by how tall all of them are. We do know the Cedric was indeed tall. PoA/Ch 9 'They've got a new captain and Seeker, Cedric Diggory-' Angelina, Alicia and Katie suddenly giggled. 'What?" said Wood, frowning at this light-hearted behaviour. 'He's that tall, good-looking one, isn't he?' said Angelina. -------- PoA/Ch 9 Diggory was a fifth year and a lot bigger than Harry. Seekers were usually light and speedy, but Diggory's weight would be an advantage in this weather because he was less likely to be blown off course. GoF/Ch 6 They spread out, searching. They had only been at it for a couple of minutes, however, when a shout rent the still air. "Over here, Arthur! Over here, son, we've got it." Two tall figures were silhouetted against the starry sky on the other side of the hilltop. (Amos and Cedric) -------- We don't actually see Krum in OoP but he is mentioned. OoP/pg 461/Ch 21/ "Yeah, but apart from that," said Ron, sounding aggravated. "I mean he's a *grouchy* git, isn't he?" Bit *grouchy*, yeah," said Harry... > > My own mental image of Krum is that he is a bit on the short side of > normal height, part of being physically unimpressive looking when off > his broomstick. "K": Well, there's just something physically different about Krum. He's more 'natural' in the air than on the ground. I know that's not a good description but it's the only description I can think of right now. There's so much more to Krum than just possibly being in a love triangle. I must admit I like him. Of course there's something I love about dark-haired, sallow-skinned, grouchy men. "K" From belijako at online.no Tue Dec 16 00:01:14 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 00:01:14 -0000 Subject: HP and the democratic equilibrium(Re: Umbridge, brooms and DEs) In-Reply-To: <3FDED87B.5601.B170D5@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87151 Shaun wrote: > > I take your point, Derek - but as somebody who was at a British > style boarding school in the late 1980s and the early 1990s, I can > tell you that if at my school, the situation you described had > happened, we *WOULD* have stood for it. > > We wouldn't really have realised we had a choice. > > In such a case, it's quite likely we would have approached the > teacher and tried to explain the situation to them and explain we > thought it was unfair. We might even have gone over the teachers > head (if there was anybody more senior available) and made a formal > protest. > > But in the end, if the teacher stood firm, we'd have pretty much > accepted it. Even if we thought it was unfair. > > Now not all schools are like that, and not all students are > compliant like that - but I think a lot of people might not grasp > what some schools are like in that regard. There are a lot of > schools - particularly traditional boarding schools - where the > students view the rules as ironclad and almost as forces of nature > - that doesn't mean they always obey them - but the idea of > actually *questioning* them may seem very very alien. > > And I can certainly see that applying at Hogwarts - mostly because > the students who are there currently have very limited experience > of dealing with capricious authority - they are used to Dumbledore > being in charge, and the vast majority of teachers (exception > Snape) being fair and reasonable. That's the type of environment > when the rules start to seem very natural, and very solid things > that you don't really question. Berit replies: I agree with Shaun: I stayed at a college, a boarding school, in Britain for four years, and can confirm his experience and knowledge of British style, traditional boarding schools :-) Though unfair, Umbridge had every "right" to confiscate Harry's broom... Berit From patnkatng at cox.net Tue Dec 16 00:01:28 2003 From: patnkatng at cox.net (Katrina) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 00:01:28 -0000 Subject: Lord Thingy by Name (was: HP and the democratic equilibrium) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87152 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "travellerrose" wrote: > > Actually, the reaction whenever Harry says Voldemort instead of "You > Know Who' put me in mind of the old English saying, ``speak of the > Devil and he shall appear''. There is an old belief that if you > actually name the thing you fear it will manifest - so that, to me, > explains why the WW is afraid to call LV by name. Rather than leading > people to forget the danger, it reinforces the fear. Katrina: I think canon reinforces this: ************* [Harry]was starting to get a prickle of fear every time You-Know-Who was mentioned. He supposed this was all part of entering the magical world, but it had been a lot more comfortable saying "Voldemort" without worrying. SS: "The Journey from Platform Nine and Three-Quarters" Am. Ed. p. 107 ************* Katrina From EnsTren at aol.com Tue Dec 16 00:17:20 2003 From: EnsTren at aol.com (EnsTren at aol.com) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 19:17:20 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Possible Threat to the HPFGU Family of Lists Message-ID: <6D95B656.439F5088.00170183@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87153 I am curious however, if this doesn't violate the TOS, what were the demands? Nemi From liwy_500 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 15 16:55:31 2003 From: liwy_500 at yahoo.com (LIWY) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 16:55:31 -0000 Subject: Squibs (was: Is Trelawney a witch?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87154 > Derek Hiemforth wrote: > > > > > There's an interesting thought... I wonder if Squibs do have some > > magical talent, but no ability to harness, control, or direct it... > Marci: > > I'm under the impression that squibs are magical, but can't perform it either at all, or it's just poor. At least that's what I gathered from the Kwikspell letters. And me (Liwi_500): Why assume that Kwikspell is authentic and not just a hoax? I think it may be theoretically that squibs do have some magical ability, but there's no methods, no knowledge about how to access and exploit it. From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Mon Dec 15 21:49:44 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:49:44 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] In bed with Harry Potter (Re: Sexual Temptaion ) References: Message-ID: <3FDE2C78.9030201@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87155 I find it hard to see how people see Bella as sexy. She's pathetic, whiny, insane and downright evil. I could see her in bed with Voldemort, but I think even he would be turned off by psycho-witch Bella. We don't even see her husband close by her side in the fighting, so maybe even he can't stand her. I just cannot see anything in the books to indicate an iota of sexiness there at all. Where are people getting this anyways? Filch has more sex appeal then Bella does and he has all the sex appeal of a grindylow and a worse attitude. Jazmyn From derek at rhinobunny.com Tue Dec 16 01:23:01 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 17:23:01 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and the democratic equilibrium(Re: Umbridge, brooms and DEs) In-Reply-To: References: <3FDED87B.5601.B170D5@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031215171952.025caa80@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87156 Berit Jakobsen wrote: >I agree with Shaun: I stayed at a college, a boarding school, in >Britain for four years, and can confirm his experience and knowledge >of British style, traditional boarding schools :-) Though unfair, >Umbridge had every "right" to confiscate Harry's broom... Derek: (Shakes head) I'll bow to your superior experience. I guess I'm just profoundly grateful that I didn't experience it. It just boggles my mind that an institution could be set up in such a way that it was ruled by the arbitrary whimsy of one person, who had absolutely no obligation to show that their actions followed any kind of agreed-upon rule. :-/ - Derek From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Tue Dec 16 01:53:20 2003 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 01:53:20 -0000 Subject: Which Hogwarts teachers are married ? Xmas clues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87157 > Sherrie wrote: > And for all we know, staff could be married to one another. We don't know > what the naming conventions are in the WW - witches may have the same options as > they do in the Muggle world, and a professor might choose to retain her own > name. It would make sense that they would keep their maiden names. They are professionals. Also, they don't have to go by their legal married name. The wives may chose to go by their maiden names to cut down on confusion. Yolanda From oppen at mycns.net Tue Dec 16 02:10:32 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 20:10:32 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Squibs (was: Is Trelawney a witch?) References: Message-ID: <018601c3c379$ca2b4b80$37570043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 87158 > > Derek Hiemforth wrote: > > > > > > > > There's an interesting thought... I wonder if Squibs do have some > > > magical talent, but no ability to harness, control, or direct > it... > > > > Marci: > > > > I'm under the impression that squibs are magical, but can't > perform it either at all, or it's just poor. At least that's what I > gathered from the Kwikspell letters. > > > And me (Liwi_500): > > Why assume that Kwikspell is authentic and not just a hoax? I think > it may be theoretically that squibs do have some magical ability, > but there's no methods, no knowledge about how to access and exploit > it. Personally, I prefer the theory that was floated here that Kwikspell's more for people who _are_ wizards or witches, but are just weak in some specific area of knowledge. Like, for instance, Magical Marvin gets a chance at a promotion at work---but to do the work, he'll have to do Transfiguration. Unfortunately, Magical Marvin was not so good at Transfiguration while at H'warts, and has hardly Transfigured anything since scraping a bare pass on his Transfiguration OWL. So-o-o, he sends to Kwikspell for a refresher course and gets genned up enough so that he can do the work. Actually, I can really feel for poor Mr. Filch---he's probably unable to function in the Muggle world, and he's trapped in a magical world where even little kids can do all sorts of things he can never do. In his place, doing his job, trying to keep that castle clean despite those hordes of unruly, disrespectful over-priviliged ungrateful brats, I'd be pretty bitter myself, and would long for the day I could physically lash out at them. Frankly, I bet that at the end of OotP, even with all the chaos, he probably cracked open a bottle of champers in his quarters in celebration of Gred and Forge going off to be thorns in someone _else's_ side. And he has other reasons to be bitter than just envy---what chance do any of you think he ever had of getting married or even having a girlfriend? Probably, effectively _zero._ --Eric, who can be very compassionate, but who still would like to see Umbridge thrown into the Houses of Parliament to be bored to death by wild orators. Death by hot air and boredom---not a pretty sight. From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Dec 16 02:11:44 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 13:11:44 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and the democratic equilibrium(Re: Umbridge, brooms and DEs) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031215171952.025caa80@mail.rhinobunny.com> References: Message-ID: <3FDF0490.174.62F19E@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 87159 On 15 Dec 2003 at 17:23, Derek Hiemforth wrote: > Derek: > (Shakes head) I'll bow to your superior experience. I guess I'm > just profoundly grateful that I didn't experience it. It just > boggles my mind that an institution could be set up in such a way > that it was ruled by the arbitrary whimsy of one person, who had > absolutely no obligation to show that their actions followed any > kind of agreed-upon rule. :-/ *Technically* speaking there probably is someone above the Head - the School Governors - but even their powers are fairly limited and it would generally take something pretty serious for them to get involved. We don't know who these are by Order of the Phoenix - but given that people like Lucius Malfoy have held positions in the past, I wouldn't have high hopes. The Ministry of Education in Britain does send Inspectors into schools to check they meet basic standards - and I suppose the Ministry of Magic has that power with regards to Hogwarts as well - indeed we know they do... because that's what Umbridge was originally there for. So there are *some* controls - the thing is, the circumstances we see of OotP... well, I doubt they are effective. The ultimate control is that parents can remove their children and send them elsewhere - but again, we have a problem. Hogwarts apparently being the only wizarding school in Britain reduces that option. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From erinellii at yahoo.com Tue Dec 16 02:30:45 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 02:30:45 -0000 Subject: Regarding Bill In-Reply-To: <20031214022510.33220.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87160 "Rose W.": > Hello! I joined this list a few days ago and have > noticed several comments about Bill (will he betray > the good side, why is there such an age gap between > him and Charlie and the rest of the family). > Since both Bill and Charlie seem to have been > "skipped" in the movies (they aren't mentioned once, > right?) is it likely that they will ever have an > extremely significant role? I'm inclined to think not. Erin: First, off, the movies are not the books. They left out several scenes in CoS that would have made the story more coherent overall, IMO. Also, they've only done the first two movies so far. And Bill & Charlie aren't mentioned much in the first 2 books. That doesn't mean they won't become important later on. I agree with you about Charlie. He's already served two small functions in the narative. He's taken care of Norbert for Hagrid, and he let Hagrid (and therefore Harry) get a glimpse of the dragons before the first task. He's unlikely to do anything more significant. But what has Bill done so far? Absolutely nothing that advances the plot. Sure, we know some things about him. He works for Gringotts, he doesn't trust sneak-o-scopes, he's dating Fleur, he came to the third task with Molly, he insisted on informing Arthur of Voldemort's return in person rather than by owl, he cuts off Dumbledore in mid- speech, he (unlike his family) calls muggles by name, he dresses in "cool" clothes, he is friends with goblins, he has joined the Order, he seems to be quite powerful magically, he doesn't like Snape. What we don't know is why. Why have we been told all this stuff about Bill? What purpose does he serve? I think JKR must be building up to something with Bill. Why else take so much care to see that we know so very much about a minor character? Erin From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Tue Dec 16 03:10:40 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 21:10:40 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Squibs (was: Is Trelawney a witch?) In-Reply-To: <018601c3c379$ca2b4b80$37570043@hppav> Message-ID: <000201c3c382$34a10b00$3491aec7@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 87161 >--Eric >Actually, I can really feel for poor Mr. Filch---he's probably unable to >function in the Muggle world, and he's trapped in a magical world where even >little kids can do all sorts of things he can never do.? In his place, doing >his job, trying to keep that castle clean despite those hordes of unruly, >disrespectful over-priviliged ungrateful brats, I'd be pretty bitter myself, >and would long for the day I could physically lash out at them.? Frankly, I >bet that at the end of OotP, even with all the chaos, he probably cracked >open a bottle of champers in his quarters in celebration of Gred and Forge >going off to be thorns in someone _else's_ side. > >And he has other reasons to be bitter than just envy---what chance do any of >you think he ever had of getting married or even having a girlfriend? >Probably, effectively _zero._ Iggy here: This makes me wonder a few things - 1: Will Filch be the one who gains magic later in life? 2: How would he get it? (Will Dumbledore find a way to unlock it in him? Will Voldemort find a way and use it to recruit Filch? Will we find out that Kwikspell works?) 3: How would it change Filch? (Would he become a nicer guy because he no longer has a reason to be jealous? If Voldemort is the source, will he side with LV? Will he become meaner to the students? Will we find him attending classes with the first year students?) and, as a side note (and someone else may have brought this up already) but it popped into my head that Argus is the Titan of a Hundred Eyes from Greek mythology. He had the ability to see anything that happened around him. Kinda like Filch and Mrs. Norris... Iggy McSnurd From amani at charter.net Tue Dec 16 04:01:52 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 23:01:52 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Use of Madam -" Madame" -Slight OT References: Message-ID: <029101c3c389$5703ab60$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87162 > Thren: > > She's not 'madam', she's 'Madame'. There's a difference. There's no > distinction between 'Mrs' and 'madam' in French- Madame fulfills both > functions (to the best of my knowledge). I get called 'madame' in > shops about as often as I get called 'mademoiselle' (Miss). bboy_mn: Just curious, how do the French pronounce 'Madame'? MaaaaDaaaam - heavy on the somewhat short 'A's. Taryn: This looks like the closest to me. Both A's are Ahh sounds (like when the doctor tells you to "say ah!") with the accent on the second syllable. (Mah-DAHM is probably how I'd write it out.) For the record, "Madame" DOES literally mean "my lady." Ma=my and dame=lady in French. *remembers when that first dawned on her in her first year of French. ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ktd7 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 16 04:41:08 2003 From: ktd7 at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 04:41:08 -0000 Subject: HP and the democratic equilibrium(Re: Umbridge, brooms and DEs) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031215134120.02633650@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87163 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Derek Hiemforth wrote: > Geoff Bannister wrote: > This is ridiculous. No one would stand for this, IMO. The violin > itself breaks no school rules, isn't the school's property, isn't > being used to disrupt classes, etc. This isn't normal school > discipline, this is outright thievery. > > And this is perfectly analogous to what Umbridge does to Harry, IMO. > Change the analogy slightly to something more athletic... A kid is banned from playing soccer, yet he has a soccer ball at school. If he is using that soccer ball in unacceptable ways (playing in the hallway, throwing into the middle of a match, being a nuisance) any AMERICAN school would confiscate it and keep it until a parent came to get it or until the end of the term. That being said, Harry obviously did not do anything that merited that severe a punishment, although the fighting would have probably warranted his being benched for a match. Of course, Malfoy should just be turned into a pi~nata! Karen From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Tue Dec 16 06:26:36 2003 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 06:26:36 -0000 Subject: Bellatrix is indeed not very sexy (Re: Sexual Temptaion ) In-Reply-To: <3FDE2C78.9030201@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87164 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > I find it hard to see how people see Bella as sexy. She's pathetic, > whiny, insane and downright evil. I could see her in bed with > Voldemort, but I think even he would be turned off by psycho-witch > Bella. We don't even see her husband close by her side in the fighting, > so maybe even he can't stand her. I just cannot see anything in the > books to indicate an iota of sexiness there at all. > > Where are people getting this anyways? Filch has more sex appeal then > Bella does and he has all the sex appeal of a grindylow and a worse > attitude. > > Jazmyn You are right, she's not Cho Chang. I think that members started considering her as a possible "femme fatale" that could try to seduce Harry because, as someone wrote, "Literature is full of formerly deadly enemies fatally attrracted to each other. Especially if she can convince our poor gullible Harry that Remus did it..." And we can't deny that every time Harry sees her photograph, he stares at it. He's obviously fascinated, but it's probably because he knows that that woman is very dangerous. She killed people and tortured Nevile's parents into madness. She appears in the series when Harry is obsessed by the Dark Side, and thinks he could become mad himself. The fascination he may feel towards Bellatrix is IMO more morbid than erotic. She's a powerful symbol of death. However, as death has since the begining of literature an erotic potential, we can't say either that there's no possibility concerning another kind of unhealthy attraction. The way JKR writes Bella's character is ambiguous, so it's anyone's bet. Amicalement, Iris From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Dec 16 07:58:26 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 07:58:26 -0000 Subject: HP and the democratic equilibrium(Re: Umbridge, brooms and DEs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87165 Geoff: I dunno. I drop a few thoughts into the group, go to bed and here I am, at 7.30 in the morning faced with a whole screenfuls of replies. Without repeating too many thoughts, just a couple of pennyworths of my own: Berit: > I agree with Shaun: I stayed at a college, a boarding school, in > Britain for four years, and can confirm his experience and knowledge > o British style, traditional boarding schools :-) Though unfair, > Umbridge had every "right" to confiscate Harry's broom... Geoff: A right being unfair sounds like a breeding ground for trouble. At a much higher level, it has been known to fuel things like apartheid, IRA problems in Northern Ireland and civle rights in the US.... Shaun: > Remember - Professor McGonagall took Harry's broom away for quite > a considerable amount of time in Prisoner of Azkaban - that wasn't > confiscation, there were other reasons for it - but it certainly > wasn't theft. Geoff: Yes, but that wasn't a confiscation as a punishment and it wasn't intended as an undated removal. Shaun: > In loco parentis is an *incredibly* powerful Common Law principle - > and was even more so in the past. A teacher under British Common > Law did have virtually the full powers of a parent over their > students. Geoff: Hm, but a lot of UK parents are getting rather hard-nosed nowadays and see anything like that as an infringement of "Little Johnnie's" rights. For the last few years, some kids (the Malfoys of this world?) have only got to mutter to their parents about things not being to their taste and the latter are beating a path to the classroom door or the head's office...... From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Dec 16 08:03:22 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 19:03:22 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and the democratic equilibrium(Re: Umbridge, brooms and DEs) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FDF56FA.24003.1A4EDEB@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 87166 On 16 Dec 2003 at 7:58, Geoff Bannister wrote: > Geoff: > I dunno. I drop a few thoughts into the group, go to bed and here I > am, at 7.30 in the morning faced with a whole screenfuls of replies. > Without repeating too many thoughts, just a couple of pennyworths of > my own: Shaun: Well, that's what happens when you engage in luxuries like sleep (-8 > Berit: > > > I agree with Shaun: I stayed at a college, a boarding school, in > > Britain for four years, and can confirm his experience and knowledge > > o British style, traditional boarding schools :-) Though unfair, > > Umbridge had every "right" to confiscate Harry's broom... > > Geoff: > A right being unfair sounds like a breeding ground for trouble. At a > much higher level, it has been known to fuel things like apartheid, > IRA problems in Northern Ireland and civle rights in the US.... Shaun: *If* the school environment is *generally* a good one, kids will (and did) tolerate the occasional unfair act. One reason why I do think the Hogwarts students would be quite likely to, to a great extent, accept Umbridge's unfair treatment (and Snape's on occasion) as more or less natural is because their *general* experience at Hogwarts is of a fair school. I suppose what I would say is that it's unlikely this would be a cause of trouble in itself - trouble would only likely develop *if* it's part of a general pattern (as over time, it certainly becomes at Hogwarts under Umbridge). > Shaun: > > In loco parentis is an *incredibly* powerful Common Law principle - > > and was even more so in the past. A teacher under British Common > > Law did have virtually the full powers of a parent over their > > students. > > Geoff: > Hm, but a lot of UK parents are getting rather hard-nosed nowadays > and see anything like that as an infringement of "Little Johnnie's" > rights. For the last few years, some kids (the Malfoys of this > world?) have only got to mutter to their parents about things not > being to their taste and the latter are beating a path to the > classroom door or the head's office...... Shaun: Yes, definitely true - but that's a fairly recent development for the most part, and I don't think we see much sign of it at Hogwarts 1996. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Tue Dec 16 08:09:44 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 08:09:44 -0000 Subject: Is Trelawney a witch? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031215040048.025c5c80@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87167 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Derek Hiemforth wrote: > > >> Arianna wrote: > >> Are we even sure that Trelawney is a witch? (snip) > >> Has anyone found direct evidence that she is a witch? > >arcum42 wrote: > >That I did. GoF, US edition, page 575 > >"If you will all look this way, I will dim the lights. . . ." > > > >She waved her wand and the lamps went out. The fire was the > >only source of light now." > > Derek: > Just to be a nuisance, I must say it's interesting that she > made them all look in a particular direction *before* she made > the lamps go out. It gives it the feel of a real-world-type > magic trick based on misdirection. And that would also be in > keeping with the way she teaches Divination... all style and > no substance. She seems to have a genuine latent talent for > Divination, but it's not consciously controllable. It did occur to me that she may have had electronic lights, and a concealed dimmer switch she had her hand on, or a motion detector, but I don't believe muggle technology works properly at Hogwarts... --Arcum From belijako at online.no Tue Dec 16 08:46:30 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 08:46:30 -0000 Subject: Is Trelawney a witch? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87168 Arcum wrote: > It did occur to me that she may have had electronic lights, and > a concealed dimmer switch she had her hand on, or a motion > detector, but I don't believe muggle technology works properly > at Hogwarts... Berit replies: According to Hermione(?), electricity does not work at Hogwarts, so you're right about that :-) Berit From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Tue Dec 16 08:49:13 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 08:49:13 -0000 Subject: Sqib's abilities (The Talented Mr. Filch) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87169 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Derek Hiemforth > wrote: > > > > > There's an interesting thought... I wonder if Squibs do have some > > magical talent, but no ability to harness, control, or direct it... > > > > - Derek > > Carolyn: > > On this point, I've always wondered how Filch managed to restore the > Fat Lady portrait after Sirius slashed it. DD specifically says he > will ask Filch to do the work, and doesn't give it to Flitwick or > someone else more suitable. > > If the portrait was actually slashed to ribbons, it would be > difficult for him just to paint on some magical substance out of a > can to fix it. Perhaps a switching spell switched the paint to another canvas? The thing that I always wondered about the restoration of the fat lady by Filch is that I would assume that it would take some artistic talent to restore a painting properly. Is Filch an artist? --Arcum From belijako at online.no Tue Dec 16 08:58:32 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 08:58:32 -0000 Subject: Regarding Bill In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87170 Erin wrote: > What we don't know is why. Why have we been told all this stuff > about Bill? What purpose does he serve? I think JKR must be > building up to something with Bill. > > Why else take so much care to see that we know so very much about a > minor character? Berit replies: I think Bill will be more important in the story... Rowling paved the way for him, especially in OoP when Bill's persuading skills with the goblins were mentioned more or less in passing... The goblins (and the other non-human magical beings) will have an important part in the plot in the last books. It's already been said on this forum that Rowling rarely, possibly never, mentions a name that doesn't turn out to play a (larger) role in the story later on. I'm just rereading GoF, and noticed Arthur Weasley mentioning a lot of names, just in passing, the clever way Rowling always does :-) Conveniently, the tents the Weasleys, Hermione and Harry are sleeping in at the Quidditch World Cup grounds are situated along the main path to the pitch, causing a lot of wizards to pass them. And even more conveniently, Mr. Weasley kept up a running commentary for Harry and Hermione's benefit (and ours obviously :-) Among others, Bode, one of the Unspeakables working in the Depertment of Mysteries, is mentioned. We know he came back into the story... What interests me, is that Cuthbert Mockridge is mentioned. He is the Head of the Goblin Liaison Office... Didn't see him in book 5 as far as I know, so I'm dead sure he'll be around, probably already in book 6 since Bill's "negotiations" with the Goblins are mentioned. Berit From belijako at online.no Tue Dec 16 09:19:47 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:19:47 -0000 Subject: In bed with Harry Potter (Re: Sexual Temptaion ) In-Reply-To: <3FDE2C78.9030201@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87171 Jazmyn wrote: > I find it hard to see how people see Bella as sexy. She's pathetic, whiny, insane and downright evil. I could see her in bed with Voldemort, but I think even he would be turned off by psycho- witch Bella. We don't even see her husband close by her side in the fighting, so maybe even he can't stand her. I just cannot see anything in the books to indicate an iota of sexiness there at all. Berit replies: The books says Bella used to be very beautiful before her Azkaban sentence; tall, with black hair. Sounds sexy enough (according to popular belief; men go by looks alone anyway :-) Of course she has lost most of her good looks due to her imprisonment. But there's one thing she's still got: Power and "radiance". Sure, it's evil, but just look around, and you see that there are plenty of men who are attracted to the "bad woman"-type. Pop and rock artists play along with this notion all the time; just look at Madonna, or Pink with her devil outfit... I doubt any man with sense would want to marry a woman like Bella, but being fascinated by it and fantazising about it is an entirely different matter... :-) That said, I'm sure none of the male characters like Harry, Ron or the men in the Order find her the least bit attractive! Because they've met her, and when meeting the "real thing" any man would soon discover there's not much to love about "evilness". Compare it with Ollivander's words about Voldemort: He was truly fascinated by Voldie's power and skills even though he used them badly. Likewise it's possible to be intrigued (just in passing) by a powerful, once beautiful but now evil woman... Berit From belijako at online.no Tue Dec 16 09:46:17 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:46:17 -0000 Subject: In bed with Harry Potter (Re: Sexual Temptaion ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87172 according to popular belief; men go by looks alone anyway :-) Berit: Just a fun little "comment" on this: I just read in a Norwegian newspaper reporting from a research done by two Canadian psychologists. In the survey they showed a picture of a beautiful woman to a group of male "guinea pigs". The result was that the men preferred short term, poorer economical winnings rather than long term, better winnings. The funny thing was that the choices of the group of women tested were not altered at all, a picture of a handsome man had no effect whatsoever on their economical choices in life... :-) Berit From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Dec 16 10:55:36 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 10:55:36 -0000 Subject: Electricity at Hogwarts (was : Re: Is Trelawney a witch?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87173 > Arcum wrote: > > > It did occur to me that she may have had electronic lights, and > > a concealed dimmer switch she had her hand on, or a motion > > detector, but I don't believe muggle technology works properly > > at Hogwarts... > > Berit replies: > > According to Hermione(?), electricity does not work at Hogwarts, so > you're right about that :-) And Del adds : But electricity is not the only way of acting on something from a distance. Pneumatics or hydraulics, for example, could do the trick. We know about electricity being banned from Hogwarts, but we don't know of anything else. And as an ex Physics student, I'd be dead interested to know how ever they managed to make the castle impervious to electricity. Ideas anyone ? Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Dec 16 11:00:35 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 11:00:35 -0000 Subject: Is Trelawney a witch? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87174 Arianna ("arielock2001") wrote: > Are we even sure that Trelawney is a witch? I have always > thought she was a squib. Hm :-) Interesting idea ! It is indeed possible that she's a Squib, and that DD accepted to meet with her just because she was a descendant of her famous Seer. Now of course the question is : would she be the person who gets to do magic late in life ? Can you imagine what it would be like, if she could master her Seeing gift !? Del From erinellii at yahoo.com Tue Dec 16 12:16:30 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 12:16:30 -0000 Subject: Electricity at Hogwarts (was : Re: Is Trelawney a witch?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87175 "Doriane" wrote: > And as an ex Physics student, I'd be dead interested to know how ever > they managed to make the castle impervious to electricity. Ideas > anyone ? > > Del Erin: Apparently electricity just doesn't function that well around massive amounts of magic; it isn't something they do on purpose. On an OT note, why did yahoo partially spell out the apostrophes on my previous message? Anyone know? This happens to me every once and a a while, and as far as I know I'm not changing my settings or anything... Erin From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Dec 16 12:45:47 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 12:45:47 -0000 Subject: Electricity at Hogwarts (was : Re: Is Trelawney a witch?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87176 > Erin: > Apparently electricity just doesn't function that well around > massive amounts of magic; it isn't something they do on purpose. Ah ? I do not remember other instances where they mentioned that fact. And if that is true, I am worried about Londoners living around the MoM, or Diagon Alley : all the magic must seriously disturb their electrical appliances. In fact, considering how much the WW wants to remain concealed to the Muggles, it would be strange for them to keep highly magical places so close to Muggle places if that could give them away, would it not ? What about the Flying Ford Anglia by the way ? The fact that it can run out of gas seems to indicate that it still functions in a Muggle way, with gas and electricity. How does that work if magic and electricity do not go together well ? And if Hogwarts completely repels electricity, then Harry and Ron should not even have made it to the castle in that car, it should have completely died before. Just wondering. > On an OT note, why did yahoo partially spell out the apostrophes on > my previous message? Anyone know? This happens to me every once > and a a while, and as far as I know I'm not changing my settings or > anything... It is not you, it is Yahoo. Check all the last messages, they all suffer from the same problem. Which explains my weird style in this post, I am trying to avoid the use of apostrophes :-) Del From erinellii at yahoo.com Tue Dec 16 13:10:42 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 13:10:42 -0000 Subject: Electricity at Hogwarts (was : Re: Is Trelawney a witch?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87177 > > Erin: > > Apparently electricity just doesn't function that well around > > massive amounts of magic; it isn't something they do on purpose. >, delwynmarch at y... wrote: > Ah ? I do not remember other instances where they mentioned that > fact. And if that is true, I am worried about Londoners living around the MoM, or Diagon Alley : all the magic must seriously disturb their electrical appliances. In fact, considering how much the WW wants to remain concealed to the Muggles, it would be strange for them to keep highly magical places so close to Muggle places if that could give them away, would it not ? Erin: I think they must have a way to contain the magic so it doesn't leak out and effect the muggles electricity. I am not sure about exactly where the quote is on that (the magic and electricity, not containing magic) but I will look. >, delwynmarch at y... wrote: > What about the Flying Ford Anglia by the way ? The fact that it can > run out of gas seems to indicate that it still functions in a Muggle > way, with gas and electricity. How does that work if magic and > electricity do not go together well ? And if Hogwarts completely > repels electricity, then Harry and Ron should not even have made it > to the castle in that car, it should have completely died before. Erin: But as a matter of fact the car DID die, just as it got close to Hogwarts. Ron and Harry thought it was because the gas ran out, but, with the distance it had already traveled, the gas should have run out before that anyway. It has been theorized on this list before that the magic around Hogwarts was the reason the engine shut down. As far as electric and magic working together in the car, the impression I got was that a little bit of magic would be ok, and only massive amounts made the electric stop working. Just my impression. Erin From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Dec 16 13:24:01 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 13:24:01 -0000 Subject: Is it all Percy's fault? NOT!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87178 "Steve" wrote: > I don't see how so many people can mis-read and misunderstand Percy. > Percy's driving force in not Ambition, it's Approval. Percy is the > Good Son, obeys the rules, does everything right, strives for > success and achievement, doesn't cause trouble; he is indeed > the Good Son and desperate for everyone to recognise him as such. Ah Steve, I bow humbly before thee !! Honestly, you have expressed astonishingly well the way I see Percy. I would go even further than you did. Percy is indeed the Good Son, the one who is sacrificing himself to redeem his family name *against its will* ! Arthur and Molly might not mind being considered loonies, Bill and Charlie might not care and prefer pursuing personal interests, so Percy is the one who will bring back its honor to the name of Weasley ! And yes I think we might see great things coming from Percy in the future. IMO, he is as truly a Gryffindor as his parents and siblings. Del From quigonginger at yahoo.com Tue Dec 16 14:00:08 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 14:00:08 -0000 Subject: HP and the democratic equilibrium(Re: Umbridge, brooms and DEs) In-Reply-To: <3FDF56FA.24003.1A4EDEB@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87179 Posting sniplets from Geoff and Shaun: > > Shaun: > > > In loco parentis is an *incredibly* powerful Common Law principle - > > > and was even more so in the past. A teacher under British Common > > > Law did have virtually the full powers of a parent over their > > > students. > > > > Geoff: > > Hm, but a lot of UK parents are getting rather hard-nosed nowadays > > and see anything like that as an infringement of "Little Johnnie's" > > rights. For the last few years, some kids (the Malfoys of this > > world?) have only got to mutter to their parents about things not > > being to their taste and the latter are beating a path to the > > classroom door or the head's office...... Now Ginger: I think that you guys may have touched on a point here: Parental involvement. I, as a Sunday School teacher, have a child from whom I confiscate everything from clicky pens to Palm Pilots. His parents are fully supportive of this. They know him well. I have another child to whom I can barely say boo without having to rush to the parents to get my side in first afterwards. The difference is not in the children, but in the parents. Let us look at the parents involved in the Broom Confiscation case. Harry, of course has no parents. Umbridge is aware of his staying at the Dursley home, as she is the one who sets the dementors on him there. She likely knows his situation with them. Vernon would not make the trip to a ruin with a warning sign to stand up for Harry. No, Sir! As a Ministry official, DU is fully aware that Arthur, though popular on a personal level, is not seated high enough to do her any harm by protesting. She is also aware of the status the twins have as trouble makers. Arthur has not stepped in yet. Why should he now? So neither Harry nor George and Fred have a parent who is going to interfere with her. Had it been Malfoy, she would most likely have given a less severe punishment. Just a thought from the apostrophe-free Ginger From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Dec 16 14:04:36 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 14:04:36 -0000 Subject: Is it all Percy's fault? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87180 "greatlit2003" wrote: > I think that many important ideas in the books are unspoken. One is > love. Characters in this book don't hug much (except Molly and > sometimes Hermione) and don't tell each other how they feel. > Knowing Arthur Weasley as we do, I have no doubt that he loves all > of his children and wants to reconcile with Percy. I would agree that he loves Percy. But that does NOT mean that he wants to reconcile with him at any price. Both real life and literature are full of examples of parents who love their children but will not forgive them for whatever reason. Moreover, I also believe that Percy loves his parents very much and wants to reconcile with them very much too. > He didn't insult Percy by telling him that Fudge promoted him to be > a spy. Arthur was trying to save his son from an awkward situation. > Percy, always ambitious, took his advice the wrong way. Okay. Let us then say that your 20 year old son and yourself happen to work in the same company, but in different departments. You are a big asset to the chief of your department, who in turn is not on good terms with the big boss of the company. In fact, the big boss is afraid your boss might try and take his place over, with your help. But he cannot fire him, for whatever reason. One day, your son comes to you and tells you that he has been promoted to become assistant to the big chief. Well, you happen to know the inner working of that company better than he does, because he has been working there only for a year, does not socialise much with the other employees (being too occupied to *work*), and is still a young naive innocent boy who pretty much sees the world in black and white. So you realise right away that he was taken in only so that either he would unadvertently tell his boss about what you and your boss are planning, or to discredit you in the eyes of your boss, which would make your boss weaker. What do you do ? Do you really go ahead and tell him : ah, sorry son, but all this is really not about you and your capacities and the hard work you have done for the company, it is only about me and the bosses ? And if you do, do you *really* expect him to take it nicely ?! > Percy shouldn't have allowed his fight with Arthur to affect how he > treated the rest of his family. As far as we know, the rest of the family sided with Arthur. Ron and the twins call Percy a git, and there is no sign from anyone, not even Molly, that they supported Percy. So the fight is not just between Percy and Arthur, it is between Percy and the whole rest of the family (with the only possible exception of Charlie). Moreover, I think you are expecting a great deal from a very young man. Percy is only 19 or 20 after all, and he has barely started his career. He has the right to expect complete support from his father, not outright sabotage. When it comes to the fight between Snape and Harry, everyone is quick to defend Harry, saying that Snape is the adult. Well, in that case, I would like to remark that *Arthur*, not Percy, is the adult. > He sent back his Christmas jumper, which his mother knitted. Even Ron hates those jumpers. They are a constant reminder that Molly will not acknowledge that her sons are growing up. As a young adult, I would understand that Percy would be outraged to still be receiving that kind of gift from his mother ! > He slammed the door in her face when she went to talk to him. It all depends on *what* she told him. My own mother and sister were constantly at war when my sister was a young adult, because they had a gift for saying *exactly* the wrong thing to each other ! > Furthermore, Percy preferred to keep his job and lose his family. > That says a lot about him. Yes, it does say a lot about him. It says that he is young and he wants to grow up. He wants to be an adult, as all young adults this age do. He wants to be respected. And for that you need to have a job and stop depending on mommy and daddy. Well, he *has* a job, and he is offered an even better one. In fact, he is offered a DREAM job, one he probably did not even dare hoping for before several years. But his family takes that accomplishment for nothing, and keeps considering him like a little boy who does not understand the world around him. So he goes away from them. Like my sister did, because she thought she could never grow up as long as she stayed home. And let us not be overly dramatic please : Percy probably does not think he lost his family. This is all just a temporary disagreement, like it happens in many families when kids get this age. They roam free for 3 or 4 years, and then they come back and everyone pretends nothing happened. Not such a big deal honestly. > In the face of what happened to Arthur, a fight with Percy was > trivial, and Percy was being petty (to the say the very least) for > not visiting his father. People fight, it's a part of life. But to > not visit one's own father who has almost been killed by a crazy > snake is unexcusable IMHO. Well you said it : Arthur was *almost* killed. Do we know *when* exactly Percy learned about his father ? And do we know if he is told about the snake, or about the extent of the wounds ? It could very well be that by the time he finally learned about it, he called the hospital and was told that Arthur was fine. Moreover, you have to keep in mind that in the eyes of Percy, Arthur is in the wrong team, doing the wrong things. So if he gets hurt doing something wrong, this is bound to make Percy even more mad at his father. > However, I am willing to give Percy the benefit of the doubt, and I > think his behavior is more of a reflection of his age and lack of > life experience than a reflection of his character. Some people do > go through phases where they may avoid their families, only to > reconcile later. Exactly ! See, you say so yourself :-) ! Del From entropymail at yahoo.com Tue Dec 16 14:44:42 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 14:44:42 -0000 Subject: Magic power vs. complex Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87181 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "abbet69" wrote: > Question: > If Hermione cast a complicated locking spell on a door, could > Dumbledore use a simple unlocking spell to open the door just > because he's more powerful than Hermione or would he have to figure > out the right counter spell. > or > If Dumbledore cast a simple locking spell of a door, could Hermione > use a complicated spell to get the door open. > > Abbet I look at it this way: Using computers as an analogy, someone could load some anti-virus software onto their computer, or put up a sophisticated firewall. It might take a while to do, and have some very complicated steps. It might even be more than a novice could handle, but someone with some experience could muddle through. In order for someone to break through these anti-viral measures, they would have to go through some pretty complicated steps. A novice probably couldn't manage it. An experienced hacker, however, could break through these measures easily. The steps would be the same (complicated) but the hacker's level of ability would render them relatively simple for that person to do. So, "complicated" is a relative term. The steps remain the same, but what is simple for one wizard is difficult for a less experienced one. :: Entropy :: From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Tue Dec 16 15:15:45 2003 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 15:15:45 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Squibs (was: Is Trelawney a witch?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87182 Eric Oppen, with more sympathy than I'll ever have, said: >And he has other reasons to be bitter than just envy---what chance do any >of >you think he ever had of getting married or even having a girlfriend? >Probably, effectively _zero._ Yes, but that's not because he's a Squib, it's because he's Filch. After all, Mrs. Figg is also a Squib and clearly was married and relatively well-adjusted. I, personally, cannot see why Dumbledore keeps Filch around at all. The house-elves could do his job. He has no magic. He's detested not only by the students, but by the Hogwarts ghosts. And he has all Snape's personality flaws without Snape's brains or ability. Perhaps Filch (or Mrs. Norris) is another person who has to stay at Hogwarts in order to be safe from Voldemort. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Winterize your home with tips from MSN House & Home. http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx From spang_b at yahoo.co.in Tue Dec 16 11:43:12 2003 From: spang_b at yahoo.co.in (spang_b at yahoo.co.in) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 11:43:12 -0000 Subject: How's Harry going to learn the curses? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87183 Hi, There's been a lot of speculation about how Harry is going to kill Voldemort. That may be a long way off, but as the second war begins, Harry will surely have to kill some people... Bellatrix for instance. I imagine that he will kill her in the next book. And may be Peter .He also needs use other unforgivable curses. With his feeble attempt at cruciatus curse not that effective, he needs to practise them more, doesn't he? I don't think they will be taught anywhere near Hogwarts and Dumbledore is only for teaching defense and not offense. So how's Harry going to learn them? Bye Adi From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Dec 16 14:01:03 2003 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 14:01:03 -0000 Subject: Large predictions for last 2 books. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87184 I'm new so please forgive me if I make posting errors. Ok, some of what I'm writing here is pieced from clues I've picked up from all the books and some of it comes from bits of info I've read on several postings--from fan sites. (Some of this may be obvious info.) There is a great war coming between the death eaters and everyone else. Hagrid will tame the giant in the forest and he will bring back the other giants to fight for the good side. Hermione with the help of a certain elf will enlist the other elves in the fight against evil. Her S.P.E.W. campaign begins to start working for her. The rest of the elves realize that it is in their interest to protect the good guys (job security). Hermione figures something out that helps Harry beat Voldemort (duh, she always does). I believe that Ginny is going to be important. She had an important role in book 2. A role that did not necessarily have to go to her. L Malfoy could have easily slipped Riddle's diary in with Ron's books or George and Fred's books. She was showcased because she learns something from her possession by Riddle that becomes important later. Or, she may have become stronger because of what happened to her. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. (Ron, George, and Fred, have specific roles they are needed for later. Rowling had to introduce Ginny because she needed a character for a specific job separate from what she had planned for Ron, Fred, George. It is interesting that she chose a female character for this role...) There is something else that struck me as curious about Ginny in OOTP- - page 100, U.S. version of OOTP: "Yeah, size is no guarantee of power," said George. "Look at Ginny." "What do you mean?" said Harry. "You've never been on the receiving end of one of her Bat- Bogey Hexes, have you?" (What is a bat-bogey hex I wonder?) Also, page 116, OOTP: "There was a musical box that emitted a faintly sinister, tinkling tune when wound, and they all found themselves becoming curiously weak and sleepy until Ginny had the sense to slam the lid shut..." I think that Ginny has become more powerful because she survived Riddle/Voldemort's possession of her. (It does not matter that it was Harry who saved her from Voldemort but that she survived.) She may now have some of Voldemort's powers, just like Harry does, because she was touched in such a powerful way. Ron has been the most difficult for me to figure out. Everyone of the characters in the book has a strength particular to themselves. For a long time I saw Ron as just being the sidekick to Hermione and Harry. Then I realized that Rowling lets us know right away in book 1 what Ron's strengths are. He is a great strategist!!! THE CHESS GAME!!! (In fact, Dumbledore is so impressed with Ron's game at the end of the 1st book that he awards points to Gryffindor house). I believe that the game is symbolic for the war that is to come (other fans have mentioned the chess game as well). Ron is going to be the leader for the army of children who will ultimately be responsible for beating Voldemort's gang. The children will be the heroes, not the adults! Ron will gain more confidence as the books progress. Ron will show how brave he truly is. He may have to sacrifice himself to save Harry. (Ron may be saved in the end by Hermione.) Percy is evil and will have something to do with Ron's fall. I've tried to rationalize Percy too much in the past. I now do not think that he is under anyone's curse, nor that he is working under cover. Sometimes there is just one bad seed in the family. George and Fred will also be part of Ron's army, supplying ammunition and weapons. These two are not to be underestimated. The older Weasley brothers will also help (dragons,Gringott's bank tunnels or it's workers). The four houses of Hogwarts will need to unite in order to beat evil. (War breaks out within the school itself. The ghosts come to the children's defense.) Neville will also help Harry and has also been underestimated. He will use his talent in herbology somehow. One of the children will be shown to be a direct heir of Slytherin but is not evil. This child may help to unite the houses. Luna Lovegood? Someone will go back to OOTP headquarters and read a book there called: Nature's Nobility: A Wizarding Geneology . (Hermione?) This person will realize that the Weasley's are directly descended from Godric Gryffindor. (Is there any family braver or worthier than the Weasleys- -I think not!) Harry may also be related to Godric via one side of his family. Here is the page that mentions the book-- p116, OOTP: "Sirius seized it (a spider like instrument on Harry's arm) and smashed it with a heavy book entitled Nature's Nobility: A Wizarding Genealogy." Dudley relives a lost memory from his childhood through the Dementor attack. I think that the Dementor that attacked Dudley made him remember something he saw as a baby. >From OOTP (Page 30, U.S. version): "All dark," Dudley said hoarsely, shuddering. "Everything dark. And then I heard....things. Inside m-my head..." Petunia then responds in a way that makes it seem that she is worried that her son may be losing his mind: "What sort of things did you hear, popkin?" breathed aunt Petunia, very white-faced with tears in her eyes. But maybe Petunia was worried that Dudley might have remembered something that happened in the past. Something he should not have seen. "But Dudley seemed in capable of saying. He shuddered again and shook his large blond head, and despite the sense of numb dread that had settled on Harry since the arrival of the first owl, he felt a certain curiosity. Dementors caused a person to relive the worst moments of their life...What would spoiled, pampered, bullying Dudley have been forced to hear?" Petunia may have been threatened by Voldemort. She probably knows him up close and personal, and not by listening in on her sister's conversations. Voldemort may have gotten to Petunia (when he was searching for the Potter's)before he reached word from wormtail. He may have threatened Petunia or her son with a dementor. In fact Dudley's worst memory may be that he previously had an encounter with a dementor as a baby! (I hardly doubt that Dudley's worst fear was getting a pigtail.) Dudley may realize the fear he caused to others while he was a bully and may give Harry important information from his vision. (Rowling has said that she feels sorry for Dudley because his parents actions towards him amounts to child abuse and that they have not prepared him for the real world.) Rowling has stated that someone will gain magical powers late in life and that it is very rare in the wizard world. Petunia and her family may be put in another life and death situation and Petunia's magic may emerge. She may end up killing someone important to the death eaters because she takes them unawares. Snape is the secret weapon of Voldemort (or of Dumbledore)???? (This can go either way.) Some fans suggest that Snape is really Perseus Evans--which also can be good or bad. If he is a mudblood hater he may be concealing his family background, like Riddle. I have another comment about Snape. The memories of Snape that Harry sees, regarding his father, are biased. These memories are seen through the eyes of Snape and are therefore the way Snape sees the world. (You are always the good guy in your mind.) I'm sure Harry's dad was no angel, but remember Harry was also picking on Dudley at the begining of OOTP and Harry is not a bad guy. Mark Evans a first year in book 6 will become important and may be related to Harry via his mother's side. We will have to find out what happened to Harry's grandparents. Olivander is a death eater???? (In fact there will probabLY be a lot of unkown death eaters that are revealed.) Tonks, if she is truely on the good side, may morph herself into one of the children in order to lure the bad guys away. She may die. (If she is bad she will lure Harry into a trap.) Harry is a fighter in the war. His position will be like his position in Quiddich (a talent inherited by his father). His job is to seek out Voldemort, where he eventually has a one-on-one face off (DUH). He will win with the help of a power inherited by his mother (his eyes?)--love is somehow involved. Harry will also be the new Defense against the Dark arts teacher. Why Not! Who cares that he hasn't graduated yet (this is not the real world you know). He already started teaching the kids in OOTP! If Lockhart can be hired, Harry can. Does Harry die? I'm not sure. He may be brought back to life by Neville through herbology? This is a complete guess, but it would be funny because the fake Moody, a death eater, is the one who steered Neville into herbology. (Voldemort would be thwarted by his own side.) Also, the prophecy would then apply to both Neville and Harry. Voldemort is defeated by both of them. Finally, the cost of making these films will be enormous! LOL From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Tue Dec 16 15:20:02 2003 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 15:20:02 -0000 Subject: Omnioculars In-Reply-To: <20031215033342.32725.qmail@web40207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87185 lovefromhermione at y... a.k.a. Julie wrote: > I realize that HRH would look more than a little odd > if they were to walk around to their classes with > Omnioculars pressed against their eyeballs, but in > those situations when they were deliberately looking > for clues, the glasses might prove useful. If nothing > else, they could have been used along with the > Extendable Ears to try and work out what the Order was > up to, on those occasions that the kids saw members. > > Julie, who wishes she could have just a few of these > handy magical objects I think the omnioculars would be appropriate to use at the TriWizard Cup or a Quidditch match whether looking for something important or just enjoying the event, however I can think of one problem. Everyone would want to borrow their omnioculars. I personally wouldn't want to be bothered saying no or having to let others use them, then get them back. Yolanda From beelissa at nycap.rr.com Tue Dec 16 15:51:14 2003 From: beelissa at nycap.rr.com (Melissa Worcester) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 10:51:14 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] How's Harry going to learn the curses? References: Message-ID: <001701c3c3ec$6f9ca1a0$efd54142@CPQ21816182602> No: HPFGUIDX 87186 Adi wrote: > There's been a lot of speculation about how Harry is going to kill >Voldemort. That may be a long way off, but as the second war begins, >Harry will surely have to kill some people... Bellatrix for instance. This brings up an interesting point. Did any of the Death Eaters get killed by members of the Order in OoP? I can't seem to remember any. It seems they either left or got captured to be put in Azkaban. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong, I didn't pay strict attention. My point is, do the other members of the Order use the Unforgivables? I mean, they're Unforgivable, after all. Not to mention illegal. I think Dumbledore might not worry about whether he's breaking the law, but would he use the Unforgivable curses, or promote their use by people he's associated with? Especially underage people, students such as Harry and friends? I was fascinated with Umbridge's argument with herself about whether or not to use the Cruciatus curse on Harry in her office near the end of OoP. The point I got from that was that she was trying to say it was okay to use it because her goal was something necessary, something the Ministry would approve of -- and that JKR was showing how it's wrong to use that type of logic to justify wrong-doing. I'm not saying that Death Eaters won't die, or that members of the Order, or Harry or other students, won't kill them or cause their deaths, but maybe it will happen differently -- causing them to fall from a great height, or drown or something. Or maybe they won't kill them at all but just capture them and turn them over for justice. I think Harry is already very bothered by the idea that he has to kill Voldemort. He had decided to kill Sirius in PoA, before he knew the truth about him, and he still couldn't do it. He couldn't agree to allowing Sirius and Remus kill Wormtail either. I just can't see JKR putting Harry in that position. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Tue Dec 16 16:02:00 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 16:02:00 -0000 Subject: Electricity at Hogwarts (was : Re: Is Trelawney a witch?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87187 --- Erin wrote: Apparently electricity just doesn't function that well around massive amounts of magic; it isn't something they do on purpose. Delwynmarch wrote: Ah ? I do not remember other instances where they mentioned that fact. What about the Flying Ford Anglia by the way ? The fact that it can run out of gas seems to indicate that it still functions in a Muggle way, with gas and electricity. How does that work if magic and electricity do not go together well ? And if Hogwarts completely repels electricity, then Harry and Ron should not even have made it to the castle in that car, it should have completely died before. Arya Now: In GoF (no books here at work), Hermione says electronic stuff/electricity does not work at Hogwarts when they are discussing possible ways that Rita is getting scoops (bugging devices, specifically). Also, the Ford Anglia did not necessarily run out of gas--in fact, I have always been under the impression that the fact that it goes all haywire when it finally approaches Hogwarts, was a direct result of interference from magic, mucking up the electrical controls and components of the vehicle. (Besides, how would 12 year old Harry and muggle-dince Ron know what a flying car running out of gas feels like?) I took this as a perfect example of what happens if an electrical-controlled artefact (albeit bewwitched) tries to operate around the magically-rich Hogwarts. From lhuntley at fandm.edu Tue Dec 16 16:10:14 2003 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 11:10:14 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Squibs (was: Is Trelawney a witch?) In-Reply-To: <018601c3c379$ca2b4b80$37570043@hppav> Message-ID: <552C1930-2FE2-11D8-9F36-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 87188 Eric: > Actually, I can really feel for poor Mr. Filch---he's probably unable > to > function in the Muggle world, and he's trapped in a magical world > where even > little kids can do all sorts of things he can never do. In his place, > doing > his job, trying to keep that castle clean despite those hordes of > unruly, > disrespectful over-priviliged ungrateful brats, I'd be pretty bitter > myself, > and would long for the day I could physically lash out at them. > Frankly, I > bet that at the end of OotP, even with all the chaos, he probably > cracked > open a bottle of champers in his quarters in celebration of Gred and > Forge > going off to be thorns in someone _else's_ side. > > And he has other reasons to be bitter than just envy---what chance do > any of > you think he ever had of getting married or even having a girlfriend? > Probably, effectively _zero._ Well, there's always Mrs. Norris. ^_^ And no, that's not as dirty as it sounds. I firmly believe that Mrs. Norris is indeed a human woman stuck in cat form -- I mean, *honestly*, who names a cat *Mrs.* Norris? What, did Mr. Norris run off with that cute tabby down the street? (Actually, I've known several people who name their pets silly things such as Mr. Biggles or the like, but just for the sake of the argument, let's all just pretend giving an animal a human title is ridiculous and highly unusual. 'Kay? ^_^) Janet Anderson: > Yes, but that's not because he's a Squib, it's because he's Filch. > After > all, Mrs. Figg is also a Squib and clearly was married and relatively > well-adjusted. Well, she *is* quite batty. Though I consider the fact that both she and Filch have the ability to converse with cats (the Human!Mrs. Norris theory -- forgot the acronym, sorry -- nonwithstanding) pretty much conclusive evidence that most (if not all) Squibs are not, magically-speaking, the equivalent of a Muggle. As for Squibs being able to function normally and marry within the Wizarding World -- well, heck, some witches and wizards even marry *Muggles*. I'm sure a Squib is considered at least more socially desirable than *that*. Janet again: > I, personally, cannot see why Dumbledore keeps Filch around at all. > The > house-elves could do his job. He has no magic. He's detested not > only by > the students, but by the Hogwarts ghosts. And he has all Snape's > personality flaws without Snape's brains or ability. > Perhaps Filch (or Mrs. Norris) is another person who has to stay at > Hogwarts > in order to be safe from Voldemort. Perhaps, or perhaps he was hired by a previous headmaster, and Dumbledore just doesn't have the heart to throw him out on the street. Really, what could he *possibly* do with his life, if he didn't work at Hogwarts? Nobody'd have him. Laura (who wonders if Mrs. Norris was a full witch or not and if she can still do magic of any kind.) From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Tue Dec 16 16:20:33 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 16:20:33 -0000 Subject: How's Harry going to learn the curses? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87189 spang_b at y... wrote: (snipped for relevancy) There's been a lot of speculation about how Harry is going to kill Voldemort. He also needs use other unforgivable curses. With his feeble attempt at cruciatus curse not that effective, he needs to practise them more, doesn't he? I don't think they will be taught anywhere near Hogwarts and Dumbledore is only for teaching defense and not offense. So how's Harry going to learn them? Arya now: My theory is once Harry can master focussing his mind and Occlumency, he will find that the power to channel emotion into spellwork will be greatly increased. If you can properly focus your mind and control it, think meditation, then I think the emtions will almost be instinctual as he casts something reflexively. Just my pet theory for now....:-) From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Dec 16 16:24:21 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 16:24:21 -0000 Subject: In bed with Harry Potter (Re: Sexual Temptaion ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87190 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" wrote: > Jazmyn wrote: > > > I find it hard to see how people see Bella as sexy. She's > pathetic, whiny, insane and downright evil. I could see her in bed > with Voldemort, but I think even he would be turned off by psycho- > witch Bella. We don't even see her husband close by her side in the > fighting, so maybe even he can't stand her. I just cannot see > anything in the books to indicate an iota of sexiness there at all. > > Berit replies: > > The books says Bella used to be very beautiful before her Azkaban > sentence; tall, with black hair. Sounds sexy enough (according to > popular belief; men go by looks alone anyway :-) Of course she has > lost most of her good looks due to her imprisonment. But there's one > thing she's still got: Power and "radiance". Sure, it's evil, but > just look around, and you see that there are plenty of men who are > attracted to the "bad woman"-type. > > That said, I'm sure none of the male characters like Harry, Ron or > the men in the Order find her the least bit attractive! Because > they've met her, and when meeting the "real thing" any man would soon > discover there's not much to love about "evilness". > Ha! Your observations seem to have missed out on a few important but rarely publicised factors. 1. Sexual attraction has very little to do with looks. If it did the world population would be much lower than it is. Sure, it can be pleasant and fantasy-inducing to have attractive members of the opposite sex around, but looks are just one of the ways that men are drawn to women and probably the most superficial. 2. There is something very, very tempting about playing with fire, especially in a sexual context. It can be almost irresistable and bloody dangerous. Moths drawn to a flame. The regrets come later. 3. Power can be an aphrodisiac for both sexes. Bella falls into the same category as Katherine the Great, Messalina and Mary Queen of Scots. Powerful, conniving, devious murderesses who never lacked willing victims. Despite the casting policies of film makers, their looks were not that striking; what mattered was the power of their personalities. A more sympathetic but apparently equally irresistable woman was Sarah Bernhardt. Her wooden leg didn't seem to put her suitors off - 1,000 affairs including 7 Heads of State. Looks are over-rated in these days of instant stardom. Probably because we can never experience the overwhelming personal one-to-one power that only a very few seem to have. Bella could be one of these. If she is Harry wouldn't stand a chance. Kneasy From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue Dec 16 16:34:38 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 16:34:38 -0000 Subject: Electricity at Hogwarts (was : Re: Is Trelawney a witch?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87191 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, delwynmarch at y... wrote: > > Erin: > > Apparently electricity just doesn't function that well around > > massive amounts of magic; it isn't something they do on purpose. Del: > Ah ? I do not remember other instances where they mentioned that > fact. And if that is true, I am worried about Londoners living around > the MoM, or Diagon Alley : all the magic must seriously disturb their > electrical appliances. In fact, considering how much the WW wants to > remain concealed to the Muggles, it would be strange for them to keep > highly magical places so close to Muggle places if that could give > them away, would it not ? Annemehr: I found the references -- two of them, anyway. The first is in GoF ch.28, when the Trio are wondering how Rita Skeeter is overhearing so many private conversations, and Harry wonders whether she is having people bugged (beginning on p. 547 US hardcover): --------------------------------- Harry started explaining about hidden microphones and recording equipment. Ron was fascinated, but Hermione interrupted them. "Aren't you two *ever* going to read _Hogwarts,_A_History_?" "What's the point?" said Ron. "You know it by heart, we can just ask you." "All those substitiutes for magic Muggles use -- electricity, computers, and radar, and all those things -- they all go haywire around Hogwarts, there's too much magic in the air. No, Rita's using magic to eavesdrop, she must be....If I could just find out what it is...ooh, if it's illegal, I'll have her..." ----------------------------------- Then the point is repeated in ch. 31, when the Trio are in the empty Transfiguration classroom helping Harry prepare for the third task and see Draco out on the lawn speaking into his hand. On p. 609: ------------------------------------ "He looks like he's using a walkie-talkie," said Harry curiously. "He can't be," said Hermione, "I've told you, those sorts of things don't work around Hogwarts.[...]" ------------------------------------- The fact that it comes from _Hogwarts, A History_ and Hermione explains it twice sends up a big red flag, no? Now that you mention it, though, Del, you would think the WW would need to surround their magical places with some sort of shield charm to avoid giving themselves away. Still, what with the other muggle-repelling charms they have, I do not think they would have either overlooked the problem nor had much difficulty dealing with it. Good point, though. Annemehr having left all the apostrophes in the quotes because otherwise they would not be quotes (sorry), and wondering if yahoo has equipment too close to a big American wizarding site From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Tue Dec 16 17:13:59 2003 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:13:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] How's Harry going to learn the curses? In-Reply-To: <001701c3c3ec$6f9ca1a0$efd54142@CPQ21816182602> Message-ID: <20031216171359.41790.qmail@web12206.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87192 > Adi wrote: > > There's been a lot of speculation about how Harry > is going to kill > >Voldemort. That may be a long way off, but as the > second war begins, > >Harry will surely have to kill some people... > Bellatrix for instance. Melissa: > I'm not saying that Death Eaters won't die, or that > members of the Order, or Harry or other students, > won't kill them or cause their deaths, but maybe it > will happen differently -- causing them to fall from > a great height, or drown or something. Or maybe they > won't kill them at all but just capture them and > turn them over for justice. > > I think Harry is already very bothered by the idea > that he has to kill Voldemort. He had decided to > kill Sirius in PoA, before he knew the truth about > him, and he still couldn't do it. He couldn't agree > to allowing Sirius and Remus kill Wormtail either. I > just can't see JKR putting Harry in that position. I don't beleive Harry knew what death was when he decided he wanted to kill Sirius in PoA. Then, when he was actually confronted with the task of administering, he still did not understand, but was starting to get it. His understanding (or lack-thereof) is what will make the difference. As for killing Voldie, I think Harry will do it in a very muggle way (gun or such). At that time will he realize what death actually means, more so from Voldie's perspective rather than his own. Harry will be 17, almost 18, at the end of Book 7, an age when most children finally realize death is permanent. Since JKR has said there will only be 7 books, we can only assume (hope) Voldie will be finished and Harry becomes a wizard of power. I think at that time, he will realize when Voldie is gone and not coming back, neither is anyone else he had hopes of bringing back (Sirius, namely). On the side, I also think he will realize that he needs to cherish those who are remaining and forgive others, like Snape (he'll live and let me live in my fantasy). Chris ===== "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ From jane_starr at yahoo.com Tue Dec 16 17:51:31 2003 From: jane_starr at yahoo.com (Jane Starr) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:51:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and the democratic equilibrium(Re: Umbridge, brooms and DEs) In-Reply-To: <3FDED87B.2546.B16FE3@localhost> Message-ID: <20031216175131.92049.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87193 --- Shaun Hately wrote: > In loco parentis is an *incredibly* powerful Common > Law principle - > and was even more so in the past. A teacher under > British Common > Law did have virtually the full powers of a parent > over their > students. As a parent, I have on occasion confiscated a thing or privilege from to one of my kids that was unrelated to the reason I was punishing them simply because it was the best way to reinforce the seriousness of the transgression. Sometimes you have to take away the thing they love most, because nothing else will have the desired impact. The difference between what Umbridge did and what most parents would do is that most parents dislike handing out punishments and only do it because they have to. If you look at how McGonagall hands out punishments, it is very much in the parental model. She cares about her students and although she dislikes handing out punishments she does it firmly and fairly. Umbridge couldn't care less about any of those kids (except insofar as they have influential parents, and the minute the parent falls from grace the kid will too) and she positively enjoys handing out punishments, the harsher the better. ===== JES Canada __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Tue Dec 16 15:43:05 2003 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Campbell, Anne-TMC-Rcvg) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:43:05 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] How's Harry going to learn the curses? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87194 Adi wrote: >>There's been a lot of speculation about how Harry is going to kill Voldemort. That may be a long way off, but as the second war begins, Harry will surely have to kill some people... Bellatrix for instance. I imagine that he will kill her in the next book. And may be Peter .He also needs use other unforgivable curses. With his feeble attempt at cruciatus curse not that effective, he needs to practise them more, doesn't he? I don't think they will be taught anywhere near Hogwarts and Dumbledore is only for teaching defense and not offense. So how's Harry going to learn them?>> Hi all...I've been part of this group for about a month now, just watching and enjoying all the different viewpoints on what Rowling may or may not do, and how she may or may not handle certain situations. I know that there's already been a lot of talk about how Harry is supposed to 'defeat' Voldemort, what the "One cannot live while the other exists" part of the prophecy really means, and what would happen to Harry, mentally and spiritually, should he 'stoop' to Voldemort's level and kill him. What I found interesting is that most of the people who feel Harry will kill Voldemort think he will end up doing it by using an Unforgivable. My question is this--why would he need an Unforgivable if that were the case? Surely there are other ways without using the Killing Curse....just as there are ways of 'killing' someone without actually killing them. I don't think Harry will need to learn the Unforgivables--in truth, I'm sure there are other spells that can do just as much damage, if used in a certain way, that are just as likely to kill Voldemort, if a spell is even used in the first place (as I remember, when Harry killed the Basilisk, he used a sword--no magic involved there other than how he got hold of it in the first place). The question, really, is whether or not Harry will be forced to do so...and what it will do to him. One of the things I've noted about the books is that Rowling is not afraid to explore the harder questions, whether its whether or not a young boy, grown up in an abusive situation, can rise above it to become a 'hero' (As in Harry's case), or why someone as mean hearted as Snape can still be a 'good guy'. She deals in grays--a very 'real world' way of looking at things. So in the case of the final conflict between Voldemort and Harry, its not going to be a simple matter of Harry pointing a wand and saying "hah! Got you!", or, if she goes the 'gentler' route, Voldemort somehow suddenly getting the sense knocked into him one way or another. It'll be just as complicated and convoluted as the rest of the story has been--No easy answers here, not even the use of an Unforgivable... Just my two cents worth...^^ Anne From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Tue Dec 16 15:42:02 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:42:02 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] How's Harry going to learn the curses? References: Message-ID: <3FDF27CA.8020400@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87195 Adi wrote: >> There's been a lot of speculation about how Harry is going to kill Voldemort. That may be a long way off, but as the second war begins, Harry will surely have to kill some people... Bellatrix for instance. I imagine that he will kill her in the next book. And may be Peter .He also needs use other unforgivable curses. With his feeble attempt at cruciatus curse not that effective, he needs to practise them more, doesn't he? I don't think they will be taught anywhere near Hogwarts and Dumbledore is only for teaching defense and not offense. So how's Harry going to learn them?>> Harry should NEVER learn those curses. They are illegal and called 'Unforgivables' for a reason. He can find some other way to kill Voldemort then breaking the law to do it. IMO, Harry should NOT ever have to kill anyone. He is JUST A KID. Let Dumbledore, Snape or Lupin be the killers, but not Harry. Bad enough Harry hand a hand in killing Quirrel, without more blood on his hands. Sure the DEs should be killed, but let the real members of the Order do it and without using Unforgivable Curses. Heroes who lower themselves to the level of the villains are not Heroes. Jazmyn From cubs9911 at aol.com Tue Dec 16 16:24:19 2003 From: cubs9911 at aol.com (cubs9911 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 16:24:19 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Mirror Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87196 I was wondering today what the purpose will be of the mirror that Sirius gave to Harry. I wonder if anyone thinks that Harry will need this sometime in the future. He never got a chance to use it and I dont think that JKR would put it there for no other reason than for Harry to regret never using it. Any ideas. JR From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 16 19:03:18 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 19:03:18 -0000 Subject: Electricity at Hogwarts (was : Re: Is Trelawney a witch?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87197 > > Arcum wrote: > > > > > It did occur to me that she may have had electronic lights, and > > > a concealed dimmer switch she had her hand on, or a motion > > > detector, but I don't believe muggle technology works properly > > > at Hogwarts... > > > > Berit replies: > > > > According to Hermione(?), electricity does not work at Hogwarts, so > > you're right about that :-) > > And Del adds : > > But electricity is not the only way of acting on something from a > distance. Pneumatics or hydraulics, for example, could do the trick. > We know about electricity being banned from Hogwarts, but we don't > know of anything else. > > And as an ex Physics student, I'd be dead interested to know how ever > they managed to make the castle impervious to electricity. Ideas > anyone ? > > Del Carol: On a simple and obvious level, there are no electrical outlets or switches at Hogwarts, so Trelawny couldn't simply have flipped a switch to turn on the lights. Also, power/telephone poles would be rather hard to hide from the Muggles, who in any case would provide the electricity that passed through the wires. Hogwarts would have to pay for any electricity that it used and its location would have to be revealed to the government or the power company (I don't know who provides the utilities in Britain). The school does apparently have some sort of plumbing system (hot water provided magically?) but no provisions for electricity regardless of electricity-repelling magic. That wouldn't explain why walkie-talkies (or cell phones, which haven't been mentioned) wouldn't work, though. I pity the Muggle Studies teacher, having to explain electricity without being able to demonstrate it! Carol From aldhelm at earthlink.net Tue Dec 16 18:51:57 2003 From: aldhelm at earthlink.net (aldhelm at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 18:51:57 -0000 Subject: How's Harry going to learn the curses? In-Reply-To: <20031216171359.41790.qmail@web12206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87198 Chris wrote: > As for killing Voldie, I think Harry will do it in a > very muggle way (gun or such). At that time will he > realize what death actually means, more so from > Voldie's perspective rather than his own. Harry will > be 17, almost 18, at the end of Book 7, an age when > most children finally realize death is permanent. > Carin responds: I suspect that the usual Muggle ways of killing people would not finish Voldie off, nor, perhaps, would AK. It seems likely that either method would only do a partial job on Voldie, taking us right back to where we started in Book 1. What would it take to do away with his body, soul, and will? Moreover, I suspect that to the extent that normal (Muggle or Wizard) ways of killing won't work on Voldie, they won't work on Harry either. Part of the denouement of the remaining books, therefore, might involve both sides trying to work out what it will take to comprehensively dispose of the enemy and so fulfill the curse. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 16 19:54:15 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 19:54:15 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Mirror In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87199 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, cubs9911 at a... wrote: > I was wondering today what the purpose will be of the mirror that > Sirius gave to Harry. I wonder if anyone thinks that Harry will need > this sometime in the future. He never got a chance to use it and I > dont think that JKR would put it there for no other reason than for > Harry to regret never using it. Any ideas. > > JR I think it has already served its purpose: to prove to Harry (and the reader) that Sirius is really dead. Carol (with apologies for the short post) From riberam at glue.umd.edu Tue Dec 16 19:59:15 2003 From: riberam at glue.umd.edu (Maria Ribera) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 14:59:15 -0500 Subject: Thoughts on broken things Message-ID: <53523147-3002-11D8-AF99-000393987376@glue.umd.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 87200 I was reading something about Harry using the mirror that Sirius gave him when i had the following thought: can magical broken things be repaired with a reparo-like spell? They couldn't repair his Nimbus 2000. I'm trying to remember what else was repaired magically throughout the books, and which of these things are regular objects (like Harry's glasses) or magical objects? If magical things cannot be repaired, then the idea of Harry ever using the mirror again can be rejected. If it can be repaired, then we should hope that he will inherit Sirius' other mirror, and then the possibilities are endless. I haven't read the books in a while, so if someone wants to bring up examples of things that have been repaired or not in the books, maybe we could formulate a new theory :) Maria From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 16 20:11:31 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 20:11:31 -0000 Subject: How's Harry going to learn the curses? In-Reply-To: <3FDF27CA.8020400@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87201 > Adi wrote: > >> There's been a lot of speculation about how Harry is going to kill > Voldemort. That may be a long way off, but as the second war begins, > Harry will surely have to kill some people... Bellatrix for instance. > I imagine that he will kill her in the next book. And may be > Peter .He also needs use other unforgivable curses. With his feeble attempt at cruciatus curse not that effective, he needs to practise > them more, doesn't he? I don't think they will be taught anywhere > near Hogwarts and Dumbledore is only for teaching defense and not > offense. So how's Harry going to learn them?>> > > Harry should NEVER learn those curses. They are illegal and called > 'Unforgivables' for a reason. He can find some other way to kill > Voldemort then breaking the law to do it. IMO, Harry should NOT ever > have to kill anyone. He is JUST A KID. Let Dumbledore, Snape or Lupin > be the killers, but not Harry. Sure the DEs should be killed, > but let the real members of the Order do it and without using > Unforgivable Curses. Heroes who lower themselves to the level of the > villains are not Heroes. > > Jazmyn Carol: Many (but not all) of us on this list agree with Jazmyn that the unforgiveable curses are unforgiveable because they're evil and that Harry and his friends should not use them under any circumstances. Here's one of my posts on the subject: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/86533 The "Bang! You're dead" and "Nature of the Unforgiveables" threads contain a lot of recent discussion of this topic. You can easily find them by doing a site search for "unforgiveable." Carol From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Dec 16 20:33:47 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (bboy_mn at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 20:33:47 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Mirror & Knife In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87202 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, justcarol67 at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, cubs9911 at a... wrote: > > I was wondering today what the purpose will be of the mirror that > > Sirius gave to Harry. I wonder if anyone thinks that Harry will > > need this sometime in the future. > > > > JR > > I think it has already served its purpose: to prove to Harry (and > the reader) that Sirius is really dead. > > Carol (with apologies for the short post) bboy_mn: Let's not forget that Sirius gave Harry a magical knife that Harry threw in the bottom of his trunk and forgot about until a few months later when he desperately wished he had it. (unlock any door, untie any knot) Then, in the next book, not only did he have it, but he used it several times. I'm guessing the mirror will reappear in the next book and play a role. I'm just not sure how significant a role. I also wonder if Harry shows the mirror to Hermione and explains it to her, if she would be able to whip up a couple more, one for her and one for Ron. Someone else pondered whether or not the mirror could be repaired, citing the fact that Harry's Nimbus 2000 could not be repair. We must remember that the Numbus broom was not just broken, it was totally demolished. In the middle of a horrendous storm, it was beaten, pummeled, and demolished by the Whomping Willow. There was nothing left but a couple twigs and some splinters. On the other hand, when Harry broke the mirror, it was inside his trunk. That means that ALL the pieces of the mirror are still there and available for the repair. Conclusion, yes, I think the mirror can be repaired. Just a thought. bboy-mn From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Tue Dec 16 20:37:59 2003 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 20:37:59 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How's Harry going to learn the curses? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87203 > > Harry should NEVER learn those curses. They are illegal and called > > 'Unforgivables' for a reason. He can find some other way to kill > > Voldemort then breaking the law to do it. With this, I completely agree. IMO, Harry should NOT ever > > have to kill anyone. He is JUST A KID. Let Dumbledore, Snape or Lupin > > be the killers, but not Harry. With this, I completely disagree. First of all, he is rapidly growing from "just a kid" into a young man both by real world and WW standards. Second of all and more importantly, Dumbledore, Snape, or Lupin were not mentioned nor indicated in the prophecy. Harry was. It's possible that Neville could kill Voldemort, but I think it will be Harry, because of the scar given him by Voldemort. Sure the DEs should be killed, > > but let the real members of the Order do it and without using > > Unforgivable Curses. They probably will. And unless the Ministry of Magic waives the illegality of the Unforgivable Curses, they'll almost certainly do it without using them. Here's a fun game: If the Ministry of Magic, as it did during the first Voldemort War, waived the illegality of the Unforgivable Curses, who would use them and who wouldn't? (For this purpose I'm assuming all the members of the OoP as "aurors" under the law.) Those I'm pretty sure would not use them under any circumstances: Dumbledore Arthur Weasley McGonagall Those I'm pretty sure would use them if sufficiently provoked: Molly Weasley Moody Those I'm pretty sure would use them without shame: Snape And this is not even getting into which of the youngsters in Dumbledore's Army would or wouldn't a) be able to or b) would use one of the curses ... (although I suspect Neville is a pretty safe bet for "would not under any circumstances"). Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Make your home warm and cozy this winter with tips from MSN House & Home. http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 16 20:39:13 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 20:39:13 -0000 Subject: Electricity at Hogwarts (was : Re: Is Trelawney a witch?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87204 Del wrote: > > And as an ex Physics student, I'd be dead interested to know how > > ever they managed to make the castle impervious to electricity. > > Ideas anyone ? Pip!Squeak: Well, I suppose magic in large amounts (which you will *certainly* find at Hogwarts) might have a "Faradays cage" effect. That is, it creates some kind of barrier where electricity simply travels around the *outside* of the barrier, and cannot get *inside*. > > Carol: > Hogwarts would have to > pay for any electricity that it used and its location would have > to be revealed to the government or the power company (I don't > know who provides the utilities in Britain). Pip!Squeak: Various power companies contribute to what is known as the National Grid; however, Hogwarts could legally generate and provide its own electric power. For example, they could use petrol generators, magically driven generators, wind generators, solar panels, etc, etc. None of these require external power lines. Since they dont, I guess electricity *really* doesnt work properly near a magical field. Carol: > The school does apparently have > some sort of plumbing system (hot water provided magically?) but no > provisions for electricity regardless of electricity-repelling magic. Plumbing predates the domestic use of electricity. The Romans had a very nice plumbing system, with central heating and everything. The house elves could use wood-fired furnaces, for example. Steam could be used to pump the hot water up to higher levels. > Carol > That wouldn't explain why walkie-talkies (or cell phones, which > haven't been mentioned) wouldn't work, though. It may simply be signal interference - magic interferes with reception. Or it may be that even the electric power of a battery is affected by the Hogwarts magic field. Though I note that in OOP the Dursleys *specifically* tell Harry not to touch the TV or the Stereo. This might be born of bitter experience; Harry might tend to accidentally destroy anything electrical. Carol: > I pity the Muggle > Studies teacher, having to explain electricity without being able > to demonstrate it! Pip!Squeak: Perhaps the students are told "its magic!" ? [grin] Pip!Squeak From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Dec 16 21:05:47 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (gbannister10 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 21:05:47 -0000 Subject: Ford Anglias (was: Electricity at Hogwarts ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87205 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, delwynmarch at y... wrote: Del: > What about the Flying Ford Anglia by the way ? The fact that it can > run out of gas seems to indicate that it still functions in a Muggle > way, with gas and electricity. How does that work if magic and > electricity do not go together well ? And if Hogwarts completely > repels electricity, then Harry and Ron should not even have made it > to the castle in that car, it should have completely died before. > Geoff: But it didn't run out of petrol. There was steam coming from under the bonnet when the engine died but it restarted after the Whomping Willow incident and huffed off into the forest after ejecting Harry, Ron and their luggage; the darn thing was still banging around in the Forbidden Forest months later...... Actually, the last model - with the raked back rear window - was a stylish little mover. I had a college friend who had one just before I joined the motoring classes. Geoff From nianya_c at yahoo.com Tue Dec 16 21:14:24 2003 From: nianya_c at yahoo.com (nianya_c at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 21:14:24 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Mirror In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87206 JR wrote: I was wondering today what the purpose will be of the mirror that Sirius gave to Harry. I wonder if anyone thinks that Harry will need this sometime in the future. He never got a chance to use it and I dont think that JKR would put it there for no other reason than for Harry to regret never using it. Any ideas. > > JR Nianya relied: I too think the mirror can and will be repaired. I don't want to speculate on whether Harry can use it in anyway to communicate with Sirius. It's possible that Siruis had the mirror with him at MOM. It's also possible that Remus has the other mirror now or will find it. I think it will play some role in the 6th and 7th books. Nia From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Tue Dec 16 21:22:42 2003 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft at yahoo.fr) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 21:22:42 -0000 Subject: Mr Ollivander (was:In bed with Harry Potter) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87207 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" wrote about Bellatrix's potential appeal: "Compare it with Ollivander's words about Voldemort: He was truly fascinated by Voldie's power and skills even though he used them badly. Likewise it's possible to be intrigued (just in passing) by a powerful, once beautiful but now evil woman..." Well, Mr Ollivander I have a problem with that guy. I don't know where to put him on the chessboard. Of course I know that no one can be only black or only white, and that ambiguity is a huge part of JKR's writing style. What is Mr Ollivander's true incidence on what happens to Harry? How can we interpret his prodigious memory? How can we interpret his pernickety behaviour during the weighing of the wands? How much does he know? Could he be the Organ Grinder? I just don't understand how the character works, and it bothers me. Any thoughts? Amicalement, Iris From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Dec 16 21:28:15 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (gbannister10 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 21:28:15 -0000 Subject: How's Harry going to learn the curses? In-Reply-To: <3FDF27CA.8020400@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87208 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: Jazmyn: > Harry should NEVER learn those curses. They are illegal and called > 'Unforgivables' for a reason. He can find some other way to kill > Voldemort then breaking the law to do it. IMO, Harry should NOT ever > have to kill anyone. He is JUST A KID. Let Dumbledore, Snape or Lupin > be the killers, but not Harry. Bad enough Harry had a hand in killing > Quirrel, without more blood on his hands. Geoff: I raised the point in message 85494 that Harry did not kill Quirrell. You might find it interesting to read that section of the thread involved and the various answers which followed. From pegruppel at yahoo.com Tue Dec 16 21:49:34 2003 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (pegruppel at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 21:49:34 -0000 Subject: Ford Anglias (was: Electricity at Hogwarts ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87209 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, gbannister10 at a... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, delwynmarch at y... wrote: > > Del: > > What about the Flying Ford Anglia by the way ? > Geoff: > the darn thing was still banging around in the > Forbidden Forest months later...... Now me: You've brought up something that I think I finally figured out--the Anglia wasn't just an Anglia anymore, not after Arthur got done with it. The problems it was having when it approached Hogwarts may have been the reaction of the Muggle-made parts to the magic around Hogwarts (Hermione says something about magic making Muggle technology malfunction--sorry, can't find the exact passage right now. And sorry about the onomatopeia). Since it had been modified by magical means, once the Muggle technology conked out, it started operating as a completely magical object. Hence, its tendency to run around the woods and rescue Harry and Ron. I don't think we've necessarily seen the last of that opninionated little contraption. Peg From meriaugust at yahoo.com Tue Dec 16 21:54:51 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 21:54:51 -0000 Subject: Neville and AK (Was: Re: How's Harry going to learn the curses?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87210 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Janet Anderson" wrote: snipped > Here's a fun game: > > If the Ministry of Magic, as it did during the first Voldemort War, waived > the illegality of the Unforgivable Curses, who would use them and who > wouldn't? more snipps > And this is not even getting into which of the youngsters in Dumbledore's > Army would or wouldn't a) be able to or b) would use one of the curses ... > (although I suspect Neville is a pretty safe bet for "would not under any > circumstances"). I think Neville would be one of the first in the DA to use the Unforgiveables, especially if he had the chance to inflict some serious damage on the DEs who tortured his parents: Bellatrix, the Lestrange brothers and Barty Crouch. IMHO, I think that Neville does have some kind of memory of his parents' torture (I am still undecided about whether or not he has been memory charmed into forgetting), and I think that he has an as yet unseen powerful, wounded, angry side that will be revealed now that he can get his own wand (his dad's having been lost in the MoM battle). I believe Neville is a lot more powerful than we know, and that the prophecy could just as easily be about him. Harry, OTOH, was confronted with Belltrix (who killed Sirius), and could not muster the strength or the desire to kill her with AK, but I think that Neville, especially now that his friends know about his folks, will be able to muster the strength to kill with AK, perhaps saving Harry's life. Meri who will mourn poor Neville if he bites it. From sarcasticmuppet at yahoo.com Tue Dec 16 22:26:38 2003 From: sarcasticmuppet at yahoo.com (sarcasticmuppet at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 22:26:38 -0000 Subject: Neville and AK (Was: Re: How's Harry going to learn the curses?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87211 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, meriaugust at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Janet Anderson" > wrote: > snipped > > Here's a fun game: > > > > If the Ministry of Magic, as it did during the first Voldemort > War, waived > > the illegality of the Unforgivable Curses, who would use them and > who > > wouldn't? > > more snipps To emerge from the woodwork only to disagree, I'm gonna have to correct your assessment of Moody. Remember in Book IV that when Crouch Sr. authorized the use of Unforgivables in WWI (Wizarding War I) to bring down Death Eaters, Moody was described as striving to bring them in alive no matter what, even losing his eye to bring one in. Considering a little Crucio! Action would have made that a bit easier, I believe that Moody refrained from using unforgivables in WWI as a matter of principle. I doubt his principles have changed much, so I will say that No, Moody will NOT use unforgivables, legal or no. --sarcasticmuppet-- From belijako at online.no Tue Dec 16 22:34:37 2003 From: belijako at online.no (belijako at online.no) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 22:34:37 -0000 Subject: Neville and AK (Was: Re: How's Harry going to learn the curses?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87212 meriaugust wrote: > I think Neville would be one of the first in the DA to use the > Unforgiveables, especially if he had the chance to inflict some > serious damage on the DEs who tortured his parents: Bellatrix, the > Lestrange brothers and Barty Crouch. IMHO, I think that Neville does > have some kind of memory of his parents' torture (I am still > undecided about whether or not he has been memory charmed into > forgetting), and I think that he has an as yet unseen powerful, > wounded, angry side that will be revealed now that he can get his > own wand (his dad's having been lost in the MoM battle). I believe > Neville is a lot more powerful than we know, and that the prophecy > could just as easily be about him. Harry, OTOH, was confronted with > Belltrix (who killed Sirius), and could not muster the strength or > the desire to kill her with AK, but I think that Neville, especially > now that his friends know about his folks, will be able to muster > the strength to kill with AK, perhaps saving Harry's life. > Meri who will mourn poor Neville if he bites it. Berit replies: Do you really think so? My impression of Neville is that he would be the last one to turn to an Unforgiveable to torture the one's that tortured his parents... Being powerful is not the same as being vindictive. Of the children no one else but Neville (and Harry) can fully understand the implications of using an Unforgiveable against another human being. I'd say Neville is vaccinated for live... :-) And he is turning into someone not just powerful but incredibly brave and loyal; just look at the way he was willing to take on Bella's cruciatus curse on his own body to prevent Harry in handing over the prophecy in the MoM fight. I'm speechless with admiration! Berit From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Tue Dec 16 22:53:53 2003 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 22:53:53 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville and AK (Was: Re: How's Harry going to learn the curses?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87213 Sarcasticmuppet at yahoo.com said: >To emerge from the woodwork only to disagree, I'm gonna have to >correct your assessment of Moody. Remember in Book IV that when >Crouch Sr. authorized the use of Unforgivables in WWI (Wizarding War >I) to bring down Death Eaters, Moody was described as striving to >bring them in alive no matter what, even losing his eye to bring one >in. I believe what Arthur Weasley said was that Moody "never killed if he could help it." I interpret that as meaning that if he could bring them in alive, he would. If he couldn't, he didn't. (Other Aurors were perhaps not so fastidious and would kill or AK first without trying other means.) Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Make your home warm and cozy this winter with tips from MSN House & Home. http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 16 22:56:36 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 22:56:36 -0000 Subject: Neville and AK (Was: Re: How's Harry going to learn the curses?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87214 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, belijako at o... wrote: > meriaugust wrote: > > > I think Neville would be one of the first in the DA to use the > > Unforgiveables, especially if he had the chance to inflict some > > serious damage on the DEs who tortured his parents: Bellatrix, the > > Lestrange brothers and Barty Crouch. IMHO, I think that Neville > does > > have some kind of memory of his parents' torture (I am still > > undecided about whether or not he has been memory charmed into > > forgetting), and I think that he has an as yet unseen powerful, > > wounded, angry side that will be revealed now that he can get his > > own wand (his dad's having been lost in the MoM battle). I believe > > Neville is a lot more powerful than we know, and that the prophecy > > could just as easily be about him. Harry, OTOH, was confronted with > > Belltrix (who killed Sirius), and could not muster the strength or > > the desire to kill her with AK, but I think that Neville, > especially > > now that his friends know about his folks, will be able to muster > > the strength to kill with AK, perhaps saving Harry's life. > > Meri who will mourn poor Neville if he bites it. > > Berit replies: > > Do you really think so? My impression of Neville is that he would be > the last one to turn to an Unforgiveable to torture the one's that > tortured his parents... Being powerful is not the same as being > vindictive. Of the children no one else but Neville (and Harry) can > fully understand the implications of using an Unforgiveable against > another human being. I'd say Neville is vaccinated for live... :-) > And he is turning into someone not just powerful but incredibly brave > and loyal; just look at the way he was willing to take on Bella's > cruciatus curse on his own body to prevent Harry in handing over the > prophecy in the MoM fight. I'm speechless with admiration! > > Berit I agree with Berit. At the risk of great oversimplification, Neville comes as close as any of the children to being the essence of goodness. He has cause to be angry but he isn't. He's fair and loyal and courageous. The unforgiveable curses, in contrast, are the essence of evil. Neville is the last person I can think of who would use or be tempted to use an unforgiveable curse. There are other ways to fight evil, and he'll find them. BTW, someone said in an earlier post that Imposter!Moody led Neville to herbology. That's an error. Professor Sprout mentioned to "Moody" that Neville was good in herbology. "Moody" merely took advantage of that knowledge to lend the herbology book to Neville in hopes that he would share the information on gillyweed with Harry. Neville did receive a needed ego boost in the process, but that was secondary to Imposter!Moody's intentions. Carol From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Tue Dec 16 22:58:03 2003 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 22:58:03 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville and AK (Was: Re: How's Harry going to learn the curses?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87215 >meriaugust wrote: > > > I think Neville would be one of the first in the DA to use the > > Unforgiveables, especially if he had the chance to inflict some > > serious damage on the DEs who tortured his parents: Bellatrix, the > > Lestrange brothers and Barty Crouch. Whereas I think he'd be the last -- even after Harry. I agree that he has the power to do so and the intellect to learn how (and also that he has a serious block somewhere, either a Memory Charm or the "lack of confidence" McGonagall suggested). But Neville not only has courage and principles (which in themselves would prevent him from sinking so low), but he probably does on some level remember what happened to his parents, and if he didn't he has them right in front of his nose on a regular basis when he visits St. Mungo's. Very few people in the Wizarding World have a better understanding of why those curses are Unforgivable than Neville does. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Its our best dial-up Internet access offer: 6 months @$9.95/month. Get it now! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup From devin.smither at yale.edu Tue Dec 16 23:10:36 2003 From: devin.smither at yale.edu (devin.smither at yale.edu) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 23:10:36 -0000 Subject: Mr Ollivander In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87216 > Could he be the Organ Grinder? I just don't understand how the > character works, and it bothers me. > Any thoughts? > > Amicalement, > > Iris While I do think he's a character to watch out for, I believe Dumbledore mentions near the end of GoF that Ollivander notified him (Dumbledore) upon selling the wand that contained Fawkes's feather to Harry. While I don't think it says anything definitive, there are 2 things to note from that. 1--Either Ollivander considered the information important and immediately passed it on to Dumbledore (and not Voldemort--see point 2) or Dumbledore and Ollivander had an agreement that that information would be relayed as soon as it was available. Either of these options indicates a certain amount of trust between the two men (although a betrayal is almost certainly at hand from SOMEONE in Dumbledore's circle in the next couple of books...but I don't think it'll have much punch if it's Ollivander). 2--Surely Ollivander is aware of the consequences of brother wands meeting one another and would (if he were in Voldemort's service and among the Death Eaters present at the graveyard) have shouted, "No, my Lord, don't give Potter his wand! They won't work properly against one another!" or some such. I guess he could be a Death Eater and not present, but that doesn't seem to jive with the number of missing Death Eaters we have in Voldemort's summing up. Like I said, not definitive but I see it as evidence more for Ollivander's siding with Dumbledore's crew than with the Death Eaters. Devin From spang_b at yahoo.co.in Tue Dec 16 11:48:00 2003 From: spang_b at yahoo.co.in (spang_b at yahoo.co.in) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 11:48:00 -0000 Subject: Regarding Bill In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87217 Hi, Berit replies: > > I think Bill will be more important in the story Well, I don't think Bill will be a major character. That's just a hunch. Not more important than he is anyway. Bye Adi From siriusxisxmyxlover at yahoo.com Tue Dec 16 19:16:44 2003 From: siriusxisxmyxlover at yahoo.com (Samantha Hilsenrod) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 11:16:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and the democratic equilibrium(Re: Umbridge, brooms and DEs) In-Reply-To: <3FDED404.1206.A001AB@localhost> Message-ID: <20031216191644.99166.qmail@web40210.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87218 Just curious- Why DOESN'T Hogwarts have cheerleaders. Lions are better than snakes. Snakes are bald and lions have hair. So come on beat those bears! Beat those bear! Okay, not a very good cheer but why doesn't Hogwarts have cheerleaders (you did say most Americans wouldnt understand why and I'm American so your explaining would be appreciated.) Samantha __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ From siriusxisxmyxlover at yahoo.com Tue Dec 16 19:25:49 2003 From: siriusxisxmyxlover at yahoo.com (Samantha Hilsenrod) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 11:25:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius' Mirror In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031216192549.84377.qmail@web40203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87219 I think JKR had Harry open the mirror after Sirius's death to display how much Harry cared for him that he wasn't even willing to explore a means of communicating with him because he didn't want Sirius to get into any doodoo. Also, it was a very moving way to make Sirius's death permanent and real (he couldn't reach Sirius on the other side of the mirror) and gave Harry's character a whole nother sensetive, greiving side. TOODLES. Samantha From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Tue Dec 16 19:37:30 2003 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 19:37:30 -0000 Subject: How's Harry going to learn the curses? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87220 Adi wrote: > There's been a lot of speculation about how Harry is going to kill > Voldemort. That may be a long way off, but as the second war begins, > Harry will surely have to kill some people... Bellatrix for instance. > I imagine that he will kill her in the next book. And may be > Peter .He also needs use other unforgivable curses. With his feeble > attempt at cruciatus curse not that effective, he needs to practise > them more, doesn't he? I don't think they will be taught anywhere > near Hogwarts and Dumbledore is only for teaching defense and not > offense. So how's Harry going to learn them? > > Adi Madmaxime: Like some of the others that have responded, I'm not at all convinced Harry needs to learn the 'unforgivables'. I think he will bring about Voldemort's demise in some other fashion besides AKing him (which would be rather boring, imo). My speculation at this point is that Voldemort, continuing to under-estimate his opponent as usual, will fall prey to the power within Harry that he "knows not." Perhaps Harry's blood and 'the look of triumph' will play a part as well. But I sincerely doubt this "power" has anything to do with the unforgivables. Voldemort understands that power quite well, after all. I also don't see Harry going all 'Rambo', and starting to knock off the Death Eaters (Peter, Bella, etc.). It's enough that he has to 'kill' Voldemort. I believe the fate of Peter and Bella will be left to others. Max From tim at marvinhold.com Tue Dec 16 19:56:45 2003 From: tim at marvinhold.com (tim at marvinhold.com) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 19:56:45 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Mirror In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87221 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, cubs9911 at a... wrote: > I was wondering today what the purpose will be of the mirror that > Sirius gave to Harry. I wonder if anyone thinks that Harry will need > this sometime in the future. He never got a chance to use it and I > dont think that JKR would put it there for no other reason than for > Harry to regret never using it. Any ideas. > > JR What a coincidence. I was just pondering this yesterday. My first thought was that the mirror itself will come to nothing. But a similar situation or object will arrise in the future, and Harry's painful lesson will cause him not screw up again. However on reading your post it became obvious that JKR may have plans for the mirrors themselves. In which case it may be critical who finds Sirius' mirror, Kreacher or one of the OOP. Tim From kcawte at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 17 10:35:40 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 02:35:40 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and the democratic equilibrium(Re: Umbridge, brooms and DEs) References: <20031216191644.99166.qmail@web40210.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002901c3c489$8439a5c0$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87222 Samantha > Okay, not a very good cheer but why doesn't Hogwarts > have cheerleaders (you did say most Americans wouldnt > understand why and I'm American so your explaining > would be appreciated.) > K Because cheerleaders are a pretty much unheard of concept in the UK. Most quidditch fans would probably insist the annoyingly cheerful girls in the ridiculous skirts get out of the way and let them concentrate on the serious business of quidditch! But there should be mascots - like at football games, then whenever the game got boring the fans could watch the large pluch lion wrestling with the big snake :) K From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 17 02:36:50 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 02:36:50 -0000 Subject: How's Harry going to learn the curses? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87223 > Adi wrote: > > > There's been a lot of speculation about how Harry is going to kill > > Voldemort. That may be a long way off, but as the second war begins, > > Harry will surely have to kill some people... Bellatrix for instance. > > I imagine that he will kill her in the next book. And may be > > Peter. > > Madmaxime: > > Like some of the others that have responded, I'm not at all convinced > Harry needs to learn the 'unforgivables'. I think he will bring about > Voldemort's demise in some other fashion besides AKing him (which > would be rather boring, imo). > > I also don't see Harry going all 'Rambo', and starting to knock off > the Death Eaters (Peter, Bella, etc.). It's enough that he has to > 'kill' Voldemort. I believe the fate of Peter and Bella will be left > to others. Carol: I agree. In fact, I think that if anyone AKs anyone else, it will be the DEs killing each other. How about Peter fulfilling his life debt to Harry by AKing Bella--or even grabbing her by the throat with that silver hand, which has to play a role somehow? And maybe Snape will kill Lucius, who I suspect will try to betray him. It's impossible to say, of course, but to imagine Harry going on a rampage to kill DEs is like imagining Frodo hunting orcs. It's not going to happen, IMO. Carol From amani at charter.net Wed Dec 17 03:50:57 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 22:50:57 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] How's Harry going to learn the curses? References: Message-ID: <010501c3c450$fb4a8aa0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87224 Adi: There's been a lot of speculation about how Harry is going to kill Voldemort. That may be a long way off, but as the second war begins, Harry will surely have to kill some people... Bellatrix for instance. I imagine that he will kill her in the next book. And may be Peter .He also needs use other unforgivable curses. With his feeble attempt at cruciatus curse not that effective, he needs to practise them more, doesn't he? I don't think they will be taught anywhere near Hogwarts and Dumbledore is only for teaching defense and not offense. So how's Harry going to learn them? Taryn: Never, I'd imagine. I don't think Harry will end up killing anyone besides Voldemort, and that will be done in a particularly different way--certainly not a simple AK. (AK! The end! Can you imagine?) JKR's already made the whole theme of the importance of staying above certain levels (Dumbledore being too noble to use certain powers, Harry leaving Peter alive). Harry's attempted use of the Cruciatus (sp?) was a big enough deal without him sitting down and learning these spells to REALLY use them. If anything happens to Bella, I'm positive Neville's going to be the one heavily involved. I think there's going to be an issue with the desire for vengeance versus forgiveness with this. Now, there's ONE thing I'm positive of--Harry's certainly not going to kill Peter. He already spared him, it would defeat the entire purpose. The only reason I'd EVER like to see Harry learning the Unforgiveables (which I DON'T) would be more cool Harry/Snape scenes. ;) ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amani at charter.net Wed Dec 17 04:01:00 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 23:01:00 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lucius fears Voldemort Was: Are Malfoy and Fudge the real masterminds? References: Message-ID: <011101c3c452$62c8e040$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87225 Sophierom: Another interesting question raised by this analogy to Nazi Germany is, why would the WW be so seduced by LV in the first place? Hitler played to German anxieties after WWI; what anxieties existed in the WW to allow LV to gain so many followers? Did Grindelwald's fall just previous to LVI have anything to do with it? Or is Grindelwald unrelated to LV's rise? Taryn: But it wasn't JUST the post-WWI anxieties that Hitler used to gain support. A good deal of it was nationalism and blaming their problems on a separate party. We know that Tom Riddle was a very charming, persusasive guy once upon a time, and that no doubt gained him support. One of the famous characteristics of Hitler is his amazing ability for public speaking, less in reference to the material than the delivery. I'm sure that TR must have been a charismatic guy who could gain himself support not only by the principles he suggested, but in the manner of his suggesting them. It's probably a good bet that there was SOMETHING going on with the warring with and fall of Grindelwald, who is one passing reference that I'd REALLY like to have more information on. When you think about the subject matter of blood purity... Well, you have the people who are already bigoted pureblood folk who, when presented with a strong, charismatic leader like Voldemort, will follow immediately. You can also take the approach of the security of the Wizarding World, saying that breeding with Muggles has endangered their welfare, yadda yadda yadda, blame our problems on THEM. The blame-game is always a easy but effective route to take. And maybe I'd type more, but I need sleep. ;) ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drednort at alphalink.com.au Wed Dec 17 04:56:13 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 15:56:13 +1100 Subject: Vauxhall Road again Message-ID: <3FE07C9D.17041.61D34B@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 87226 All right - some information on the 'Vauxhall Road' issue. I've had a chance to do some serious research getting down to something close to primary sources. Most of the following information comes from two volumes of the 'London County Council: Survey of London' edited by Sir Howard Roberts, and Walter H. Godfrey, and published by the London County Council in 1951 and 1956. The relevant volumes are Volume XXIII (1951) South Bank & Vauxhall (Parish of St. Mary Lambeth Part I) and Volume XXVI (1956) Parish of St. Mary Lambeth Part II: Southern Area. Based on these books I can now confirm that Kennington Lane was legitimately known as Vauxhall Road. Vauxhall Road consisted of what is today Wandsworth Road and Kennington Lane. While the newer names have been official for quite a long time, the name Vauxhall Road has also been used (especially for businesses) until very recently and could certainly have been in use at the time, Tom Riddle purchased his diary. So the other question is why he might have been in this area. Several people have already mentioned the Spurgeon Orphanage which was very close to the area in question - checking a map of London, a short walk of about half a mile down Binfield Road and Landsdowne Way would have taken someone from the ophanage to Wandsworth Road (part of Vauxhall Road). No point on the old Vauxhall Road is more than two miles from the orphanage. So if Tom Riddle had wound up in that orphanage, it's perfectly plausible he could have gone to Vauxhall Road. The Spurgeon Orphanage was evacuated on September 1st 1939, and the children were move to Reigate. If Tom was born in 1927 (which is the Lexicon date), he would have potentially started at Hogwarts in 1938. I don't think we have any indication on when the diary was purchased - but it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume he might have obtained it around the time he started at Hogwarts, even if he didn't enchant it until a little later. Now - the question has been asked why would Tom have wound up at an orphanage in London - some people feel it would make more sense for him to have been in an orphanage nearer where he was born and on the face of it that seems quite reasonable. However, I've found the 1881 Census results that list those resident at Spurgeon's Orphanage. It also lists where they came from. While most do come from areas fairly near the orphanage, not all do. Now we know Little Hangleton is 200 miles from Little Whinging which is in Surrey. Looking at a map, that seems to place Little Hangleton, most likely, in Yorkshire, Lancashire or Humberside. The 1881 census shows two of the boys at Spurgeon's Orphanage were from Lancashine - now that is close to fifty years before Tom would have been there, but it does at least suggest the possibility that Spurgeon's Orphanage sometimes took children from a considerable distance away. It's also worth noting another possibility - although I doubt this site personally, because it involves the term 'orphanage' being used very loosely - I just mention it for completeness. Just south of Spurgeon's Orphanage is Stockwell Road. From 1937 onwards there was a hostel for boys between the ages of 14 and 18 who needed accommodation in London. It's just vaguely possible, I suppose, that Tom, given that he *had* a home at Hogwarts for most of the year might have spent his summer holidays in a place like that after 1941 or so (when he would have been old enough). I don't there's a strong case for this - it's just it came up in my research so I may as well mention it. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drednort at alphalink.com.au Wed Dec 17 05:06:15 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 16:06:15 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and the democratic equilibrium(Re: Umbridge, brooms and DEs) In-Reply-To: <20031216191644.99166.qmail@web40210.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3FDED404.1206.A001AB@localhost> Message-ID: <3FE07EF7.18294.6B04E2@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 87227 On 16 Dec 2003 at 11:16, Samantha Hilsenrod wrote: > Just curious- > Why DOESN'T Hogwarts have cheerleaders. > > Lions are better than snakes. > Snakes are bald and lions have hair. > So come on beat those bears! > Beat those bear! > > Okay, not a very good cheer but why doesn't Hogwarts > have cheerleaders (you did say most Americans wouldnt > understand why and I'm American so your explaining > would be appreciated.) It's just a cultural difference. Cheerleaders are *not* part of British school culture the way they are in some American high schools. There's no tradition of provocatively clad girls dancing around doing organised cheers at school sporting events. My point in mentioning it was just to illustrate how different countries have rather different educational traditions - so if something about Hogwarts seems weird to an American reader, they should bear in mind that it may not be because Hogwarts is a Wizard school - it may just be because Hogwarts is a British school. One prime example - prefects. I've encountered a significant number of American Harry Potter fans who believe 'Prefects' are something JKR made up. Same with the House system - they think that's something she created for the books. They don't realise that these are fairly normal (though certainly not universal) features of British schooling - many schools have prefects. Many schools have a house system. It's not that Americans are especially ignorant - it's just that the educational culture is a different one. And other English speaking countries (such as Australia, Canada, and New Zealand) tend to be members of the Commonwealth and to have closer educational traditions to British schools - so it's mostly Americans who are generally being asked to deal with something quite 'alien' to their experiences in the Harry Potter books. Of course, all fans have to deal with some differences between their schooling and what's seen at Hogwarts - it's just that the learning curve for Americans tends to be greater than other English speaking populations. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From senderellabrat at aol.com Wed Dec 17 05:10:50 2003 From: senderellabrat at aol.com (senderellabrat at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 05:10:50 -0000 Subject: Mr Ollivander (was:In bed with Harry Potter) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87228 Iris: > Well, Mr Ollivander I have a problem with that guy. I don't know > where to put him on the chessboard. Of course I know that no one can > be only black or only white, and that ambiguity is a huge part of > JKR's writing style. > What is Mr Ollivander's true incidence on what happens to Harry? How > can we interpret his prodigious memory? How can we interpret his > pernickety behaviour during the weighing of the wands? How much does > he know? > Could he be the Organ Grinder? I just don't understand how the > character works, and it bothers me. > Any thoughts? Me: Honestly Iris, I feel the same way. I haven't quite figured out what he's playing at. Something did hit me, however, while hunting a few weeks ago. I was sitting there, freezing my hiney off, at an obscenely early hour trying to stay awake when it hit me like a bolt of lightning. I looked at my husband who was sitting in the blind with me and said, "Not everyone is/was aware Riddle = Voldywhat right?" Of course he looked at me like *I* grew antlers but finally figured out what I was talking about. He said he didn't *think* it was a known fact (except for the obvious people). I thought the same thing. Now anyone please correct me on that fact if I'm wrong. In SS, Olivander has has famous explanation of Harry's wand and the brother wand belonging to the person who "gave Harry that scar" etc. Now, unless Mr Tom Riddle ended up getting another wand later in life because he had an accident and needed a new one, wouldn't that mean Olivander sold TOM RIDDLE his wand. What I'm getting at is, unless it comes out later that Voldywhat's wand is *not* his original wand from his Hogwarts days, then Olivander knows Riddle = Voldywho (which I am under the assumption is not a well known fact!). It just seems fishy to me. It seems to me like Olivander is possibly on Voldythingie's side because of the fact that he's keeping that bit of information a secret. Unless of course it's like the whole Doctor/patient confidentiality sort of thing, but I doubt it. I know this made no sense, so I apoligize. Sen Bumbling & Stressed out No howlers please! It made sense in my head at 4am! From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Dec 17 07:51:23 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (gbannister10 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 07:51:23 -0000 Subject: HP and the democratic equilibrium(Re: Umbridge, brooms and DEs) In-Reply-To: <3FE07EF7.18294.6B04E2@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87229 Shaun: > My point in mentioning it was just to illustrate how different > countries have rather different educational traditions - so if > something about Hogwarts seems weird to an American reader, they > should bear in mind that it may not be because Hogwarts is a Wizard > school - it may just be because Hogwarts is a British school. > > One prime example - prefects. I've encountered a significant number > of American Harry Potter fans who believe 'Prefects' are something > JKR made up. Same with the House system - they think that's > something she created for the books. > > They don't realise that these are fairly normal (though certainly > not universal) features of British schooling - many schools have > prefects. Many schools have a house system. > Geoff: Also bear in mind that prefects and house systems are not only part of the boarding school system. When I was in th Sixth Form at my grammar school I was a prefect and we had a house system (four houses often seems to be a norm). Our local comprehensive college here in Somerset has houses, as do the Middle Schools. It's possible that Harry's school in the Little Whinging area had houses (and maybe prefects (*) so that their existence at Hogwarts did not come as a surprise. (*) Some Junior or Middle schools will have "prefects" who are really class monitors at that age and do not not carry quite the same kudos as Fifth Year or Sixth Year folk. Geoff From cherishedvette at yahoo.com Wed Dec 17 09:11:11 2003 From: cherishedvette at yahoo.com (cherishedvette at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 09:11:11 -0000 Subject: Nature of the Unforgivables - Event vs Sustained In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87230 > bboy_mn: > > Although a bit unrefinded, we know that Harry is a powerful, gifted, > and out of the ordinary wizard, so why didn't his Cruciatus Curse work? > > Well, first of all, it did; it did work. He cast pain, and Belatrix > felt pain. To what extent the curse MIGHT have been able to work, we > don't know because Harry cast it improperly. Karen: One of the things that has always occured to me when reading this scene is Bellatrix's words to the effect of "-righteous anger won't hurt me for long-". This has always made me think that one of the reasons Harry's spell fails to work so well has to do with Bellatrix's state. She has just come out of about 14 years in Azkaban in which she has been trapped in her own worst memories. This is something that has always been shown to us in the books as being a very painful ordeal. Just look at what Hagrid looked liked at the end of COS after spending just a couple of months their. So while I agree with your comments on Harry not casting the spell properly I also think it has a great deal to do with Bellatrix she has lived with 14 years of constant unescapeble pain and it would take a very powerful 'Cruciatus Curse' to cause her pain. I often times wonder if Harry had cast the curse on someone else, someone who had not just come out of Azkaban if the curse would have worked. She does say his anger won't hurt her specifically not that it won't work on someone else. I hope this post is understandable I find I think it better than I write it. Karen From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Dec 17 14:15:36 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (bboy_mn at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 14:15:36 -0000 Subject: Harry, Frodo, and the Nature of Evil (...will Harry AK?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87231 In the Off-Topic group someone posted a 1956 book review of 'Lord of the Rings - Return of the King' which is very enlightening. It speaks of the nature of good and evil. And this nature applies to Harry Potter just as much or more than it applies to Lord of the Rings. ---Quote - NY Times Website --- http://www.nytimes.com/1956/01/22/books/tolkien-king.html Chance, or Providence, has put the Ring in the hands of the representatives of Good, Elrond, Gandalf, Aragorn. By using it they could destroy Sauron, the incarnation of evil, but at the cost of becoming his successor. If Sauron recovers the Ring, his victory will be immediate and complete, but even without it his power is greater than any his enemies can bring against him, so that, unless Frodo succeeds in destroying the Ring, Sauron must win. Evil, that is, has every advantage but one-it is inferior in imagination. Good can imagine the possibility of becoming evil-hence the refusal of Gandalf and Aragorn to use the Ring-but Evil, defiantly chosen, can no longer imagine anything but itself. Sauron cannot imagine any motives except lust for domination and fear so that, when he has learned that his enemies have the Ring, the thought that they might try to destroy it never enters his head, and his eye is kept toward Gondor and away from Mordor and the Mount of Doom. Further, his worship of power is accompanied, as it must be, by anger and a lust for cruelty:... ---End Quote--- In this quote, we also see the difference between Harry Potter and Voldemort, Harry can see the potential for good and evil within himself, but Voldemort, corrupted by his own evil, can see nothing but himself. When one dictator defeats another, when evil defeats evil, nothing is gained; it simply becomes the perpetuation of evil. Harry is a powerful wizard. far more powerful the either he or we know. He could defeat Voldemort by AKing him and take over the corrupted wizard world. Lord knows, someone needs to take it in hand. But that's not going to happen. "Evil, ..., has every advantage but one-it is inferior in imagination. Good can imagine the possibility of becoming evil-... -but Evil, defiantly chosen, can no longer imagine anything but itself". Can we see that weakness in Voldemort? Can we, in this quote, see why Voldemort's plans always fail, and why he will ultimately be defeated? I'm sure I can. Harry is a true epic hero, he will not choose to use evil to defeat evil, for Harry victory to be truly inspiring, he must find a hero's victory. He must defeat Voldemort within the bounds of good. I don't know how Harry will defeat Voldemort. I'm sure JKR has an amazing surprise in store for us. But I do know that Harry will not allow himself to become tained by using the unforgivables in a dark and definitive way. Some else, said essential the same thing, that Harry will not be corrupted by using dark forces for victory in the "How's Harry going to learn the curses?" thread, unfortunately, I am unable to find that exact post. Evil is only truly defeated when it is defeated by good. Just a thought. bboy_mn From meriaugust at yahoo.com Wed Dec 17 15:42:44 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 15:42:44 -0000 Subject: Neville and AK (Was: Re: How's Harry going to learn the curses?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87232 > meriaugust wrote: > > > I think Neville would be one of the first in the DA to use the > > Unforgiveables snipping my own post > Berit replies: > > Do you really think so? My impression of Neville is that he would be > the last one to turn to an Unforgiveable to torture the one's that > tortured his parents... more snipping Meri again : I think that Neville is a great kid: upstanding, decent and worthy of our admiration for dealing with all the pain that he has suffered with such grace and aplomb, but that doesn't mean that he'll never use an Unforgiveable. In fact I think that this makes it all the more likely that he will, because IMHO, one of JKR's major points is that sometime good, well intentioned people can make bad (or at least morally questionable) descions for very good reasons. This is evidenced by DD and his royal screw up when it came to dealing with Harry and the prophecy in OotP. If I may, I'd like to use a very very OT example to illustrate my point (and those readers who have not seen "Saving Private Ryan" should skip this one). In SPR the most Neville-like character is the translator, Cpl. Upham, who has never seen battle and has never even fired his weapon in combat before. He is a bit of a poet, and often doesn't understand the reality of warfare, and gets drafted to go with Cpt. Miller's squad to rescue Pvt. Ryan. In one firefight the squad takes out a Nazi machine gun nest, and loses their medic to wounds inflicted by the German guns. The Americans capture a German soldier, and while the majority of the squad, including the captain, wants to execute him then and there, Upham, who pitties the pannicked German, conivnces them to release the German and send him off to surrender to the first Allied unit he can find. They do so, but at the last battle, after they have found Ryan, Upham witnesses Miller being shot by enemy fire, bullets fired by the German he took pity on and released. With nary a blink of the eye, Upham kills the German at point blank range. This is a real war, he realizes, and unsavory things must be done for the right side to win it. This is, I believe, the choice Neville will have to face: AK a DE or have one of his friends, or himself, die. Which would you have him be: dead with morals intact or alive with nothing to mar his conscience other than the fact that he killed a bad person to save a good life? The WW is at war, after all, people will be killed on both sides, and while the use of an Unforgiveable is a last resort, I think there will be a time when Neville (and Harry) will be pushed to that last resort, with good reason. Anyway, hopefully this clarified my stance a little. Sorry for rambling. Meri (fellow Neville lover) From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed Dec 17 16:13:22 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 16:13:22 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall Road again In-Reply-To: <3FE07C9D.17041.61D34B@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87233 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > All right - some information on the 'Vauxhall Road' issue. Annemehr: First of all, thanks so much for the research you've been doing! As one of the first adherents to Carolyn's theory that Riddle/Voldemort actually has some powerful Muggle backers, I've been reading with extreme interest. (BTW, I've playfully dubbed her theory D.I.A.R.I.S.T.: Dual Intrigue: Amagical Rich Influence Slytherin's Tom) But I'm afraid I have a complication for you. Shaun: > Several people have already mentioned the Spurgeon Orphanage > which was very close to the area in question > > So if Tom Riddle had wound up in that orphanage, it's > perfectly plausible he could have gone to Vauxhall Road. > > The Spurgeon Orphanage was evacuated on September 1st 1939, > and the children were move to Reigate. > > If Tom was born in 1927 (which is the Lexicon date), he > would have potentially started at Hogwarts in 1938. I don't > think we have any indication on when the diary was purchased > - but it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume he might have > obtained it around the time he started at Hogwarts, even if > he didn't enchant it until a little later. Annemehr: We know from canon that the Diary was dated; when the book mentions "blank pages" it only means "not filled in," not absolutely blank. >From CoS ch. 13: "Harry saw at once that it was a diary, and the faded year on the cover told him it was fifty years old. He opened it eagerly. On the first page he could just make out the name 'T. M. Riddle' in smudged ink." And even though, just a short way down the same page, it says: "Harry peeled the wet pages apart. They were completely blank. There wasn't the faintest trace of writing on any of them, not even /Auntie Mabel's birthday,/ or /dentist, half-past three/" we find out later the same chapter that there are dates printed inside also (this quote is from after the dwarf spilled ink all over the diary in the struggle to give Harry his singing Valentine): "The pages of the diary began to blow as though caught in a high wind, stopping halfway through the month of June. Mouth hanging open, Harry saw that the little square for June thirteenth seemed to have turned into a miniscule television screen." So this is definitely a diary for a particular year, with dates inside and everything. Diaries like these are always sold in the year preceding the one they are for, aren't they? So Riddle would have had to have bought it in 1942? I'm assuming the June thirteenth in the diary was 50 years before the end of Harry's second year, so it was a 1943 diary (going by Lexicon timeline). Still, I don't think it's impossible that Riddle would have been in an area of London that was familiar to him in, say, August '42, even if the orphanage was no longer there. He may have stopped there before going to Kings Cross that year. Would August 31st be too early to buy a diary for the following year? Or could he have pretended to go back to the orphanage at Christmas, and bought it then? Shaun: > > Now - the question has been asked why would Tom have wound > up at an orphanage in London - some people feel it would > make more sense for him to have been in an orphanage nearer > where he was born and on the face of it that seems quite > reasonable. Annemehr: I don't see this as much of a problem. If there was no orphanage particularly near Little Hangleton that could have taken the infant Tom, they could have sent him almost anywhere, depending on who took on the task and who they knew with connections to an orphanage. Of course, if you subscribe to DIARIST, you could well believe that the Muggles of the theory just wanted to get him away from his father's family to prevent unwanted questions. ;-) Annemehr From catherinemck at hotmail.com Wed Dec 17 16:34:25 2003 From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemck at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 16:34:25 -0000 Subject: Sexual Temptaion was: Stereotyping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87234 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > K arote: > it is certainly possible to read the books and see the evidence > > for at least one homosexual couple > Sirius and Remus Personally I still think the flashback in > the pensieve adds even more evidence to the gay!Sirius idea - I think > he has a crush on James, no wonder he's got so many problems by OotP! > > Mandy here, > There is plenty of sexuality, heterosexual and homosexual in the > story if you look for it. Sirius was definitly in love with James, > Remus is in love with Sirius, Peter was in love with James and > Sirius, and James loved Lily. Unrequited love is so powerful. No > wonder they were so messed up! ;-) > And I wrote: Sorry, but someone has to mention it, that crucial little bit of gunpowder to add to the oil-soaked rag pile of unrequited love needed to _really_ create chaos; Snape! Hmm, where does Snape fit in with Sirius's crush on James. I don't imagine teen!Snape being sufficiently well-acquianted with them to know. Could he find out later? Catherine McK From travellerrose at yahoo.com Wed Dec 17 02:50:22 2003 From: travellerrose at yahoo.com (travellerrose at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 02:50:22 -0000 Subject: How's Harry going to learn the curses? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87235 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Campbell, Anne-TMC-Rcvg" wrote: > What I found interesting is that most of the people who feel Harry will kill Voldemort think he will end up doing it by using an Unforgivable. My question is this--why would he need an Unforgivable if that were the case? Surely there are other ways without using the Killing Curse....just as there are ways of 'killing' someone without actually killing them. <> Yes, and remember that Dumbledore says that there are worse things than death, and that not realising that is one of Voldemort's biggest mistakes. TravellerRose From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Dec 17 17:07:40 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (gbannister10 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 17:07:40 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall Road again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87236 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, annemehr at y... wrote: Annemehr: > First of all, thanks so much for the research you've been doing! As > one of the first adherents to Carolyn's theory that Riddle/Voldemort > actually has some powerful Muggle backers, I've been reading with > extreme interest. (BTW, I've playfully dubbed her theory > D.I.A.R.I.S.T.: Dual Intrigue: Amagical Rich Influence Slytherin's Tom) > > But I'm afraid I have a complication for you. > > Shaun: > > > Several people have already mentioned the Spurgeon Orphanage > > which was very close to the area in question > > > > So if Tom Riddle had wound up in that orphanage, it's > > perfectly plausible he could have gone to Vauxhall Road. > > > > The Spurgeon Orphanage was evacuated on September 1st 1939, > > and the children were move to Reigate. > > > > If Tom was born in 1927 (which is the Lexicon date), he > > would have potentially started at Hogwarts in 1938. I don't > > think we have any indication on when the diary was purchased > > - but it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume he might have > > obtained it around the time he started at Hogwarts, even if > > he didn't enchant it until a little later. > > Now - the question has been asked why would Tom have wound > > up at an orphanage in London - some people feel it would > > make more sense for him to have been in an orphanage nearer > > where he was born and on the face of it that seems quite > > reasonable. > > Annemehr: > > I don't see this as much of a problem. If there was no orphanage > particularly near Little Hangleton that could have taken the infant > Tom, they could have sent him almost anywhere, depending on who took > on the task and who they knew with connections to an orphanage. Geoff: I've been digging around a little bit re Stockwell Orphanage and I think I found the same source which Shaun mentioned, the 1881 census at: http://chrisb.4ce.co.uk/schools_site/create_pdf.php?ID=1339 In there, I skimmed and found that, although the great majority of names were from the London area and from areas then in Surrey, Middlesex etc which finished up in London, there were some from places such as Luton, Newbury, Cambridge, Oxford, Swindon, Southampton - all between 45-80 miles away and even one from Glasgow. So Little Hangelton is still in the frame, though I still feel it has a West Country feel about it, rather than the north, speaking as someone who grew up in the north myself. I am still following upone or two lines about Vauxhall Road itself and will hold commenting until later. Geoff From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Wed Dec 17 19:49:13 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (carolynwhite2 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 19:49:13 -0000 Subject: And what about Madame Marsh ?(was Regarding Bill) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87237 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" wrote: (snip) > Rowling rarely, possibly never, mentions a name that doesn't turn out > to play a (larger) role in the story later on. > (snip) Carolyn: Another one that I have spotted is Madame Marsh. In PoA she is a passenger on the Knight Bus, and gets off at Abergavenny. In CoS, she is on the Knight Bus again when the trio take it back to Hogwarts, although its not specified where she gets off. Is she shadowing Harry, and if so, who's side is she on ? If we follow iris_ft's interesting recent analysis of the importance of 'Madames' in Harry's life, perhaps she has some important role to play in the future ? From sydenmill at msn.com Wed Dec 17 20:02:07 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (sydenmill at msn.com) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 20:02:07 -0000 Subject: YEW Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87238 (As background reading for this post, please refer to Post #85551 by Berit, entitled, "Holly and Yew," [thank you for the research, Berit!] as well as the excellent response by justcarol67 in her Post #85730.) In GOF, the number of times JKR mentions that a Yew tree is located close to Tom Riddle, Sr.'s grave is startling. Now, according to the information in the above-noted posts, yew trees were planted all over the English countryside near graveyards due to their rumored "rebirthing" powers. Okay. That would explain a yew tree in a graveyard. But. Notice the number of times it gets mentioned in GOF, all within just a few pages. (Caps used in lieu of underlines for emphasis only. I'm not shouting. Honestly.) (All quoted material taken from GOF, American Edition hardback:) page 636: "They were standing in a dark, overgrown graveyard the black outline of a small church was visible beyond a large YEW tree to their right." page 646: "The air was suddenly full of the swishing of cloaks. Between the graves, behind the YEW tree, in every shadowy space, wizards were Apparating." page 654: "Silence once more; nothing was stirring, not even the leaves on the YEW tree." (Do you think JKR wanted us to notice there was a YEW tree close to Tom Senior's grave? What difference would it make, really, other than to set the stage, establish some atmosphere?) Then, from SS, chapter 5, we all remember the production Ollivander made about the fact that Voldemort's wand was made of YEW: page 83: "Thirteen-and-a-half inches. YEW. Powerful wand, very powerful;, and in the wrong hands. . ." Then, on page 85, again, same exact phrasing, so's we'd be sure to notice: "Yes, thirteen-and-a-half inches. YEW. Curious how these things happen. The wand chooses the wizard, remember..." Then, further nonchalant mention of YEW comes in OOP, page 444: "...Harry nudged Ron and pointed into the black space between two gnarled YEW trees. A pair of blank, white shining eyes were growing larger through the gloom..." I am wondering what the significance of YEW is beyond the fact that Voldemort's wand is made of it for JKR to make such a point of mentioning it so often. Does anyone have a theory? Further, just a sidenote: Did the picture at the start of OOP, chapter (21), "Eye of the Snake," strike anyone else as symbolic? There are two gnarled YEW trees intertwined, divided at their bases, with separate roots --but with just one set of ghostly eyes in the singular "head" of the pictorial composition. I know this is supposed to be the thestral staring from the gloom of the forest mentioned in the above passage. But. Isn't it funny that the chapter, "Eye of the Snake," about Voldemort, should have this particular picture? A subliminal repetition of the "in essence divided" theme? Thought-provokingly yours (I hope), Bohcoo From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Wed Dec 17 20:33:31 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (carolynwhite2 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 20:33:31 -0000 Subject: And what about Madame Marsh ?(was Regarding Bill) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87239 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, carolynwhite2 at a... wrote: > Carolyn: > Another one that I have spotted is Madame Marsh. In PoA she is a > passenger on the Knight Bus, and gets off at Abergavenny. In CoS, she > is on the Knight Bus again when the trio take it back to Hogwarts, > although its not specified where she gets off. Is she shadowing > Harry, and if so, who's side is she on ? > > If we follow iris_ft's interesting recent analysis of the importance > of 'Madames' in Harry's life, perhaps she has some important role to > play in the future ? Carolyn again: Sorry, the second mention of Madame Marsh is in OoP, of course, not CoS... From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 17 20:41:03 2003 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 20:41:03 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] And what about Madame Marsh ?(was Regarding Bill) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FE0BF5F.3020105@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87240 > > Carolyn: > Another one that I have spotted is Madame Marsh. In PoA she is a > passenger on the Knight Bus, and gets off at Abergavenny. In CoS, she > is on the Knight Bus again when the trio take it back to Hogwarts, > although its not specified where she gets off. Is she shadowing > Harry, and if so, who's side is she on ? > > If we follow iris_ft's interesting recent analysis of the importance > of 'Madames' in Harry's life, perhaps she has some important role to > play in the future ? > digger: Ah, Madame Marsh, the witch with chronic travel sickness ;-) I was thinking about her today. Abergavenny is in Wales, and it is not-quite-but-almost on a straight route to Surrey via Bristol. I was just musing on the possibility of Godric's Hollow being somewhere close to Abergavenny. How about Madame Marsh was a neighbour of the Potters? digger From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 17 20:56:30 2003 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 20:56:30 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] YEW In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FE0C2FE.7020507@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87241 sydenmill at msn.com wrote: > > I am wondering what the significance of YEW is beyond the fact that > Voldemort's wand is made of it for JKR to make such a point of > mentioning it so often. Does anyone have a theory? > > > > Thought-provokingly yours (I hope), > Bohcoo digger: (I am speaking of English traditions here) Yew being poisonous to animals, it was always planted in churchyards, which were enclosed, and so impervious to local browsing livestock. Yew trees were planted to provide bow-wood for making long-bows, which was used extensively by the medieval English army, with great sucess against the French. Target practise was the only 'sport' permitted in the middle ages on Sundays. Yew is also incredibly long-lived. Some live examples are well over 1500 years old, some in Wales maybe even 2000 or more by repute. From arielock at aol.com Wed Dec 17 20:47:19 2003 From: arielock at aol.com (arielock at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 20:47:19 -0000 Subject: Voldemort the seeker. was: large predictions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87242 vmonte at yahoo.com predicted the following: "Harry is a fighter in the war. His position will be like his position in Quiddich (a talent inherited by his father). His job is to seek out Voldemort...(snip) "I think that Ginny has become more powerful because she survived Riddle/Voldemort's possession of her. She may now have some of Voldemort's powers, just like Harry does, because she was touched in such a powerful way." Arianna gazes into her crystal ball and replies: I agree with the idea that Ginny has been affected by Voldemort's possession, maybe in an unexpected way. JKR has consistently painted situations where we readers and Harry are led to assume one conclusion only to have it be incorrect. The movies and Snape's worst memory (OoP) lead us to assume that James was a seeker. JKR stated in an interview that he was a chaser (IIRC). Is it possible that Tom Riddle was a seeker, and that Harry "inherited" his talent from him? Even though she said she didn't love it, Ginny did replace Harry as seeker when he was banned from playing... Arianna From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Dec 17 20:34:02 2003 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 20:34:02 -0000 Subject: Luna Lovegood can see the future. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87243 I re-read OOTP were the kids are first introduced to Luna. She is sitting on the train reading her father's newspaper. She is reading an article entitled: Secrets of the Ancient Runes Revealed. Perhaps this is a subject Luna excels at. Also, I think Luna may be able to see the future. I don't think she has completely mastered it, but the idea makes sense if you think about some of her behavior in OOTP. Examples:She raises the newspaper she is reading on the train moments before Neville's plant explodes over everyone. Everyone in the compartment is drenched in slime except for her. Also, there are many times throughout the book when things are happening and Luna appears to be bored. If she already knows what is going to happen--of course she is going to be bored. At the end of OOTP she has no fear during the fight, and is the only person not hurt. If she knew what was going to happen she knew that she would be fine, or knew how to avoid getting hurt. She hasn't told anyone because she has knowledge that it would be better not to, hasn't needed to, knows the future is not fixed, doesn't want Voldemort to find out, and most importantly doesn't want to give the last two books away for JKR Rowling. I think Rowling didn't bring Luna into the picture until now because she was afraid the character would give too much away (and someone annoying like me would figure it out). Luna's reactions to Ron are over the top--more like hero worship--not like she has a love crush kind of thing. (Her responses to Ron are more like people have to Super Stars/famous people in history, etc.) She may know that Ron will be the hero in book 7. (Look at my earlier comments about Ron being the leader of the army against Voldemort.) In fact she may be the person that saves Ron in the end. From drednort at alphalink.com.au Wed Dec 17 21:05:53 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 08:05:53 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vauxhall Road again In-Reply-To: References: <3FE07C9D.17041.61D34B@localhost> Message-ID: <3FE15FE1.26719.2EEDFD@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 87244 On 17 Dec 2003 at 16:13, annemehr at yahoo.com wrote: > Annemehr: > But I'm afraid I have a complication for you. Shaun: Good - this is what I am looking for. > "Harry saw at once that it was a diary, and the faded year on the > cover told him it was fifty years old. He opened it eagerly. On the > first page he could just make out the name 'T. M. Riddle' in smudged ink." Shaun: The thing is, though, when it says 'fifty years old' does it mean *exactly* fifty years old or *approximately* fifty years old. 50 years is a nice round number - it wouldn't be that uncommon for a person in 1992, to describe a book printed in 1938 or 1939 as '50 years old'. Other issues to be considered - possibility is that the diary could have beeen for more than one year (five year diaries were not uncommon back then - especially if you were talking about something that was well put together). I've seen other diaries - especially those sold in small newsagents - which were printed for generic years (dates were printed inside but without the days of the week) and you added the date yourself to the cover. I've no idea if that was done back in the 1930s and 1940s but I know it was more recently - I used them at school. One other issue to consider... Britain had paper rationing during World War II. I wonder how easy it would be to buy a 1942 diary under those circumstances. I confess I have no idea - it just occurred to me now. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From rredordead at aol.com Wed Dec 17 21:19:28 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (rredordead at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 21:19:28 -0000 Subject: YEW and HP connections In-Reply-To: <3FE0C2FE.7020507@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87245 > Bohcoo wrote: > I am wondering what the significance of YEW is beyond the fact that > Voldemort's wand is made of it for JKR to make such a point of > mentioning it so often. Does anyone have a theory? Mandy here: Some are some very interesting connections between the Yew tree and Harry Potter: Its trunk is erect, usually much divided. Yew tree is represent by the Rune Eihwaz. Yep, that's the Rune that is shaped like the lighting bolt. Interesting connection.....coincidence? I don't think so. The smooth, gold-coloured wood with a wavy grain has long been associated with magic, death, and rebirth. Yew is also said to enhance magical and psychic abilities, and to induce visions. Again interesting. It is seen as a symbol of life, and is a common feature in graveyards across Europe as a guardian against evil and negative forces. The tree is extremely long lived, in excess of 2,000 years. All parts of the tree are poisonous except the fleshy covering of the berry. Just how it's going to help our hero who knows. Mandy From s_karmol at yahoo.com Wed Dec 17 21:29:05 2003 From: s_karmol at yahoo.com (s_karmol at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 21:29:05 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Mirror In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87246 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, tim at m... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, cubs9911 at a... wrote: > > I was wondering today what the purpose will be of the mirror that > > Sirius gave to Harry. I wonder if anyone thinks that Harry will need > > this sometime in the future. He never got a chance to use it and I > > dont think that JKR would put it there for no other reason than for > > Harry to regret never using it. Any ideas. > > > > JR > > What a coincidence. I was just pondering this yesterday. > > My first thought was that the mirror itself will come to nothing. But a similar situation or object will arrise in the future, and Harry's painful lesson will cause him not screw up again. > > However on reading your post it became obvious that JKR may have plans for the mirrors themselves. In which case it may be critical who finds Sirius' mirror, Kreacher or one of the OOP. > > Tim Stephanie Writes: Didn't Harry smash it into a million pieces when it didn't work? I think what is shows is that Harry is still young. He was hotheaded and didn't think of all ways of communication. (Sirius had clearly told Harry to use it is he needed to get intouch with him.) It's a really harsh lesson to learn, but I'm sure he won't forget it. (Just like you said Tim) From rredordead at aol.com Wed Dec 17 21:37:15 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (rredordead at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 21:37:15 -0000 Subject: Luna Lovegood can see the future. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87247 vmonte at y... wrote: > I think Luna may be able to see the future. I don't think she has completely mastered it, but the idea makes sense if you think about some of her behavior in OOTP. > She hasn't told anyone because she has knowledge that it would be > better not to, hasn't needed to, knows the future is not fixed, > doesn't want Voldemort to find out, and most importantly doesn't want to give the last two books away for JKR Rowling. Mandy here: Very interesting and it occurred to me while reading your post that another reason she may not to tell anyone is because of the way Seers and practioners of Divination are treated in the WW. Only those of exceptional ability and have been able to prove that ability are treated with any kind of respect. I'm sure that if the teenage daughter of the publisher of the Quibbler started to claim she could see the future, she would be laughed out of the room. Seeing the future has got to be a hard thing to prove to others. After all if you can predict the future everyone expects you to be able to do something about it and/or take advantage of it even though that may be impossible. Perhaps Luna is suffering from the Cassandra syndrome, where she can predict the future, but no one believes her? Or cannot change it? Or perhaps she saw her own mother's death and way unable to stop it? That would make a child deny a gift like that. Or if not deny then push away. The more I think about it, what a curse that would be for a child to carry around. It might explain why she is such an outcast and dosen't seem affected by the petty way the other kids treat her. Luna does seem resigned to her fate in life. Mandy From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Wed Dec 17 21:51:31 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (carolynwhite2 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 21:51:31 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Nature of Evil (...will Harry AK?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87248 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, bboy_mn at y... wrote: > Harry is a true epic hero, he will not choose to use evil to defeat > evil, for Harry victory to be truly inspiring, he must find a hero's > victory. He must defeat Voldemort within the bounds of good. > > I don't know how Harry will defeat Voldemort. I'm sure JKR has an > amazing surprise in store for us. But I do know that Harry will not > allow himself to become tained by using the unforgivables in a dark > and definitive way. > > Some else, said essential the same thing, that Harry will not be > corrupted by using dark forces for victory in the "How's Harry going > to learn the curses?" thread, unfortunately, I am unable to find thatexact post. > Evil is only truly defeated when it is defeated by good. > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn Carolyn (tongue firmly in cheek): well, Steve, I tried to apply your admirable sentiments to a 'real life' situation. The List Admin team wrote: >>Dear Members of the Harry Potter for Grownups Family of Lists, >>We regret the need to interrupt with a post of this nature. >>We were contacted via the owners address with a frank threat against the lists, indicating that, unless certain demands are met, an irreversible action will be taken that will damage the HPFGU list community. >>So we ask your continuing patience and understanding, while we do everything we can to protect this family of lists. >>Sincerely, The HPforGrownups List Administration Team The HPfGU common room door banged open. For one wild moment, the list members were sure it would it that-person-who-must-not-be-named. But it was Harry, and he was beaming. 'So sorry - dozed off - what have I missed?' He didn't seem to notice that the elves and the list members were looking at him with something remarkably like hatred. A Mod stepped forward. 'Just the man' said the Elf. 'The very man. Our list is in danger of being destroyed, Harry. Your moment has come at last'. Harry blanched. 'I - well, I -' he spluttered. 'I'm just...Harry..' 'It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities', said a remorseless fan. 'V-very well,' said Harry, 'I'll - I'll get ready...' He left the room, but was followed at a distance by a suspicious group of list members and List Elves, who halted outside his dormitory. There seemed to be a lot of activity going on inside. They could hear scraping, thumps and hurried footsteps. They threw open the door. 'Oh..my fans..List elves..' said Harry 'I am rather busy at the moment..' They surveyed a scene of hurried packing. 'Are you going somewhere ?' they said. 'Er, well, yes..urgent call.. unavoidable..got to go, due in another parallel universe..my agent, Philip Pullman, you know, just called..' 'What about our list, our precious community ?' said a fan, jerkily. 'Its all about you'. 'Well, as to that - most unfortunate' said Harry, avoiding their eyes. 'You are the Boy That Lived' said a List Elf, 'You can't go now ! Not with all the dark stuff going on here !' 'Well, I must say..when I took the job..' Harry muttered, 'nothing in the job description..didn't expect...' 'You mean you are running away ?' said a listee disbelievingly. 'After all that stuff you did in your books?' 'Books can be misleading' said Harry delicately. 'Do use your common sense. My books wouldn't have sold half as well if people didn't think I'd done all those things. But its been a lot of work, all the same.. if you want fame, you have to be prepared for a long hard slog'. He looked around the list, took in the piles of parchment, the wide expanse of Theory Bay, the songs, the wild, mad complete nonsense of it all.' 'Let's see.' he said, 'only one thing to be done.. if there's one thing I pride myself on its my Memory Charms'. He pulled out his wand and turned to them. But the listees and the Mods were ready for him. 'Expelliarmus !' they bellowed. 'Shouldn't have taught us that one' they said furiously. Harry gazed desperately around him, but nobody came to the rescue. He didn't look remotely handsome any more. His lip was trembling, and in the absence of his usually toothy grin he looked weak-chinned and weedy. 'What d'you want me to do?' said Harry. 'I don't know where this person-who-must-not-be-named is'. 'You're in luck' said a tough-looking Mod. 'We think we do'. And they marched Harry out of his dormitory and out into cyberspace. 'Right' said Kneasy, whose nostrils were flared. 'that's got him out from under our feet'. He paused. 'And now' he said, ' and now that Harry is the only thing between our list and total oblivion, perhaps we can re-open the question as to whether or not he should use every Unforgiveable Curse he can get his hands on, and then some ?' Like the Cheshire cat, Kneasy's evil grin lingered for some time after he had slipped back into the shadows. Carolyn With many apologies to JKR and, of course, Kneasy, whose longed-for grande guignol ending was never meant to include us as well, was it ? (Pauses uncertainly). From tsuki_no_miko at hotmail.com Wed Dec 17 03:12:07 2003 From: tsuki_no_miko at hotmail.com (Ali) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 22:12:07 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and the democratic equilibrium(Re: Umbridge, brooms and DEs) References: <20031216191644.99166.qmail@web40210.mail.yahoo.com> <002901c3c489$8439a5c0$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87249 K wrote: > Because cheerleaders are a pretty much unheard of concept in the UK. Most > quidditch fans would probably insist the annoyingly cheerful girls in the > ridiculous skirts get out of the way and let them concentrate on the serious > business of quidditch! > > But there should be mascots - like at football games, then whenever the game > got boring the fans could watch the large pluch lion wrestling with the big > snake :) Ali: 1) I totally agree. Cheerleaders, even if they weren't a foreign concept in the UK, would be too distracting in a school quidditch match. From the descriptions, the viewers no need encouragment in the cheering department anyways. There's also the idea that quidditch is a fast-paced game taking place in the air. Unless the cheerleaders get on their brooms to do their cheers, they would be quite useless, and if they get on their brooms to cheer, they would (1) distract from the game, thereby making the viewers angry, and (2) annoy the players by getting in their way. Overall, it seems a really bad idea to have cheerleaders at one of these games. 2) I also agree that there should be mascots. That would be fun and not too distracting. One person getting on a broom (or even just being on the ground) to encourage cheering/booing from the crowd would be absolutely normal and possibly even expected at sporting events. (Goodness knows it happened at the World Cup.) Ali From easleyweasley at aol.com Wed Dec 17 11:02:54 2003 From: easleyweasley at aol.com (easleyweasley at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 06:02:54 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and the democratic equilibrium(Re: Umbridge, brooms an... Message-ID: <1d1.162ed743.2d1191de@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87250 >Just curious- >Why DOESN'T Hogwarts have cheerleaders. >Lions are better than snakes. >Snakes are bald and lions have hair. >So come on beat those bears! >Beat those bear! >Okay, not a very good cheer but why doesn't Hogwarts >have cheerleaders (you did say most Americans wouldnt >understand why and I'm American so your explaining >would be appreciated.) >Samantha Cheerleaders are, I'm afraid, just not part of English school tradition. Where I work, the House Match Final is a big event [there is no afternoon school that day], and perhaps a couple of hundred people watch. There may be some organised cheering from one house or the other, but nothing more formal than that. The two teams appear on the pitch and begin playing. I do notice that in many fanfics that American authors tend to introduce US High School elements which are definitely not part of canon! Easleyweasley. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Wed Dec 17 22:22:26 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (carolynwhite2 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 22:22:26 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall Road again In-Reply-To: <3FE15FE1.26719.2EEDFD@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87251 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > On 17 Dec 2003 at 16:13, annemehr at y... wrote: > > > Annemehr: > > But I'm afraid I have a complication for you. > > Shaun: > Good - this is what I am looking for. > > > "Harry saw at once that it was a diary, and the faded year on the > > cover told him it was fifty years old. He opened it eagerly. On the > > first page he could just make out the name 'T. M. Riddle' in smudged ink." > > Shaun: > The thing is, though, when it says 'fifty years old' does it mean > *exactly* fifty years old or *approximately* fifty years old. > > 50 years is a nice round number - it wouldn't be that uncommon for > a person in 1992, to describe a book printed in 1938 or 1939 as '50 > years old'. > > Other issues to be considered - possibility is that the diary could > have beeen for more than one year (five year diaries were not > uncommon back then - especially if you were talking about something > that was well put together). > > I've seen other diaries - especially those sold in small newsagents > - which were printed for generic years (dates were printed inside > but without the days of the week) and you added the date yourself > to the cover. I've no idea if that was done back in the 1930s and > 1940s but I know it was more recently - I used them at school. > > One other issue to consider... Britain had paper rationing during > World War II. I wonder how easy it would be to buy a 1942 diary > under those circumstances. I confess I have no idea - it just > occurred to me now. > Carolyn: Shaun, your research about the Vauxhall road name was marvellous, but I am glad Annemehr whizzed in with this comment about the dating of the diary (thanks Annemehr -waves - you beat me to it by about 1 minute !). I think you are clutching at straws here. I really think that the phrase 'the faded year on the cover' says exactly what it means - its a printed date, we presume 1943 from all the other canon evidence cited elsewhere. Hermione spots the significance of this at once, as she is no dunce, she means exactly 50 years ago, not approximately, because she associates it specifically with the date on the shield, and the last opening of the chamber of secrets. She says (caps are JKR's emphasis in the text, not mine): 'And this diary is fifty years old' said Hermione, tapping it excitedly. 'So'. 'Oh Ron, wake up' snapped Hermione. 'We know the person who opened the Chamber of Secrets last time was expelled FIFTY YEARS AGO. we know TM Riddle got an award for special services to the school FIFTY YEARS AGO.' (CoS, p.174 UK edition) On the issue of paper shortages and rationing - yes, they were quite severe, and I would have thought that this would have pushed the price up. Which makes me question even more where or how a poor orphan boy found the muggle money to buy it. So what if he didn't ? A further thought is that it was bought for him by a muggle who could afford it. This would avoid the need for Tom to be anywhere near dangerous, war-torn muggle London (though, I suppose it wouldn't have been a dangerous place for a wizard, who could protect himself from danger). On the other hand (sorry, thinking aloud here), Tom would not have been able to use magic to protect himself, as an under-age wizard at the time (and as a star pupil and prefect he would have been noticed if he had; this was long before he went really bad). Wonder whether the MoM was as officious in policing this in wartime London. Carolyn From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Wed Dec 17 15:08:26 2003 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 15:08:26 -0000 Subject: Neville and AK (Was: Re: How's Harry going to learn the curses?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87252 meriaugust wrote: > > > > > I think Neville would be one of the first in the DA to use the > > > Unforgiveables, especially if he had the chance to inflict some > > > serious damage on the DEs who tortured his parents: Bellatrix, the > > > Lestrange brothers and Barty Crouch. > Janet Anderson responded: > Whereas I think he'd be the last -- even after Harry. I agree that he has > the power to do so and the intellect to learn how (and also that he has a > serious block somewhere, either a Memory Charm or the "lack of confidence" > McGonagall suggested). > > But Neville not only has courage and principles (which in themselves would > prevent him from sinking so low), but he probably does on some level > remember what happened to his parents, and if he didn't he has them right in > front of his nose on a regular basis when he visits St. Mungo's. Very few > people in the Wizarding World have a better understanding of why those > curses are Unforgivable than Neville does. Neville is a well of untapped magical abilities. I think in the next two books, he is going to be hit with a barrage of information regarding his family. I would not be surprised, as others have posted, if his dear old Gran and Uncle Algie were DE. I think Gran somehow is continuing the curese on his parents during their visits. I also think Uncle Algie may have suspected Neville to be the one in the prophecy, which is why he dropped him off the balcony. If he could kill the one in the prophecy, wouldn't VE be so proud! Neville is in Griffyndor, even though in books 1-3 at least he would have made an excellent Hufflepuffian. As for his use of Unforgiveables, I know he will be tempted, perhaps even succombing on one occassion. However, if he does, I think his guilt would be so overwhelming that he would never do it again. Neville will find a way to defeat LV and DEs, and a powerful way it will be. Julie From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Wed Dec 17 15:17:07 2003 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 15:17:07 -0000 Subject: Harry, Frodo, and the Nature of Evil (...will Harry AK?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87253 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, bboy_mn at y... wrote: > In the Off-Topic group someone posted a 1956 book review of 'Lord of > the Rings - Return of the King' which is very enlightening. It speaks > of the nature of good and evil. And this nature applies to Harry > Potter just as much or more than it applies to Lord of the Rings. > > > Harry is a true epic hero, he will not choose to use evil to defeat > evil, for Harry victory to be truly inspiring, he must find a hero's > victory. He must defeat Voldemort within the bounds of good. > > Evil is only truly defeated when it is defeated by good. > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn *original post edited for brevity Thanks for this post! I always enjoy the compare/contrast posts with LOTR. I read in another post (I can't recall which) regarding the prophecy and touching on the nature of good and evil. It suggested that The Boy Who Lived and LV were personas, with Harry Potter and Tom Riddle being the persons. This is one important difference between HP and LOTR...Sarumon (sp?) was the personification of evil. Tom Riddle chose evil. Remember, choice if extremely important in JKR's books. I think this adds a dimension that LOTR does not have. This is why the HP characters are so complicated and not as unidimensionally good and evil as some say about LOTR. I would not be surprised if JKR uses choice in surprising and powerful ways to close this chapter in the HP epic mystery. Julie From MadameSSnape at aol.com Wed Dec 17 22:41:42 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 17:41:42 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] YEW Message-ID: <9f.41b52c0c.2d1235a6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87254 sydenmill at msn.com wrote: > > I am wondering what the significance of YEW is beyond the fact that > Voldemort's wand is made of it for JKR to make such a point of > mentioning it so often. Does anyone have a theory? Sherrie here: Here's a bit from "Sacred Celtic Sites" on some of the ancient Celtic associations of Yew: "Especially important and highly revered was the yew tree, which was associated with the winter solstice. It was forbidden to cut off any of the yew's branches as the Celts believed that the gods lived in its branches. The yew was often a meeting place as well as a burial site for important tribesmen. Ogham script, which is the early language of the Irish Celts, was believed to have been carved on yew wood. It was also believed that the yew, together with the Ogham script posessed magical properties. Yew wood was also often used in the carving of sacred Celtic objects in the Celtic Christian Church, such as the reliquary, and the presence of the yew trees in churchyards is a testament to its sacred nature. However, through recent research, it has been found that often, the trees were there long before the church itself, suggesting the idea that churches were built near yews because of its aura of holiness and sanctity that the tree had for the pre-christian people." IIRC, yew was also the wood from which that legendary weapon, the English longbow, was made. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Wed Dec 17 22:52:45 2003 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft at yahoo.fr) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 22:52:45 -0000 Subject: And what about Madame Marsh ?(was Regarding Bill) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87255 HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, carolynwhite2 at a... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" > wrote: > (snip) > > Rowling rarely, possibly never, mentions a name that doesn't turn > out > > to play a (larger) role in the story later on. > (snip) > > Carolyn: > Another one that I have spotted is Madame Marsh. In PoA she is a > passenger on the Knight Bus, and gets off at Abergavenny. In CoS, she > is on the Knight Bus again when the trio take it back to Hogwarts, > although its not specified where she gets off. Is she shadowing > Harry, and if so, who's side is she on ? > > If we follow iris_ft's interesting recent analysis of the importance > of 'Madames' in Harry's life, perhaps she has some important role to > play in the future ? Thanks for finding my analysis interesting, Carolyn. And thanks for reminding me the existence of poor Madam Marsh: I simply had forgotten her. If we admit that "Madam" in JKR's series means "Fata", then we can say that Madam Marsh "rules" two important moments in Harry's life. She's appears when Harry "meets" Sirius for the first time. The Knight Bus rescues him just after his encounter with Padfoot, and during the journey, Sirius's photograph blinks on the front page of the Daily Prophet: Harry doesn't know yet, but he has found his godfather. She's also there when Harry says leaves Sirius. He doesn't know yet, but he's about to loose him. Sirius enters and leaves Harry's life exactly in the same quick and furtive way. Every time, the Knight Bus takes Harry aboard. Every time, Madam Marsh is there, and she is sick. Her name and her state of health are curiously the exact metaphor of what Harry is feeling. In PoA, he doesn't know what will happen to him because he blew his aunt Marge. In OotP, he doesn't know what will happen to him when he is back at Hogwarts, and what Snape prepares for his Occlumency lessons. Two Knuts, Amicalement, Iris From helenhorsley at hotmail.com Wed Dec 17 13:37:30 2003 From: helenhorsley at hotmail.com (helenhorsley at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 13:37:30 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Mirror In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87256 cubs9911 wrote: > I was wondering today what the purpose > will be of the mirror that Sirius gave to Harry. > I wonder if anyone thinks that Harry will need > this sometime in the future. He never got a > chance to use it and I dont think that JKR would > put it there for no other reason than for Harry to > regret never using it. Any ideas. Now dorapye: I assumed the mirror was actually just a plot device, to present an 'if only...' to the reader. *If only* Harry had opened the present earlier, had used it to contact Sirius after the vision of LV torturing him in the DoM...then he would have been able to see Sirius was at home, perfectly safe, tending the injured Buckbeak; he would have evaded the treacherous Kreacher, not have had to use Umbridge's fireplace, not have been caught by the evil old hag, not have nearly killed his best friends in his mercy mission to rescue his godfather and not have lost Sirius for good...if only he had not forgotten Sirius's present, it all might have been avoided and Sirius might still be alive... It could be true, as Carol states, that the mirror has the effect of proving to Harry (and/or to the reader) that Sirius is really dead, but does it do this? OotP p756 (UK edition): "He wiped the mirror clear again and said, so that every syllable rang clearly through the room; 'Sirius Black!' Nothing happened. The frustrated face looking back out of the mirror was still, definitely his own... Sirius didn't have his mirror on him when he went through the archway, said a small voice in Harry's head. *That's* why it's not working...." Does Harry accept that Sirius is dead, but not understand the nature of 'wizard' death, imagining the mirror will let him talk to his godfather 'beyond the veil'. He certainly doesn't seem to gain any further confirmation of Sirius's death from the mirror, rationalising that it doesn't work, not because Sirius is dead, but because Sirius did not have his mirror on him when he fell through the archway. And if Sirius did have his mirror on him when he died, would Harry have been able to see him in the mirror? I guess we shall never know.... As to whether the mirrors could be used in future books, well they could certainly be useful...I am sure Harry would eventually want to put Sirius's last gift to some good use. I expect they may come into the next books, but as I said at the beginning of my post, I believe their function in OotP was to reinforce the tragedy of Sirius's death with an 'if only..' (and exacerbate Harry's grief and guilt, poor lad!) dorapye From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Dec 18 00:08:56 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 11:08:56 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vauxhall Road again In-Reply-To: References: <3FE15FE1.26719.2EEDFD@localhost> Message-ID: <3FE18AC8.28457.51039D@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 87257 On 17 Dec 2003 at 22:22, carolynwhite2 at aol.com wrote: > Shaun, your research about the Vauxhall road name was marvellous, but > I am glad Annemehr whizzed in with this comment about the dating of > the diary (thanks Annemehr -waves - you beat me to it by about 1 > minute !). > > I think you are clutching at straws here. I really think that the > phrase 'the faded year on the cover' says exactly what it means - its > a printed date, we presume 1943 from all the other canon evidence > cited elsewhere. Hermione spots the significance of this at once, as > she is no dunce, she means exactly 50 years ago, not approximately, > because she associates it specifically with the date on the shield, > and the last opening of the chamber of secrets. She says (caps are > JKR's emphasis in the text, not mine): > 'And this diary is fifty years old' said Hermione, tapping it > excitedly. > 'So'. > 'Oh Ron, wake up' snapped Hermione. 'We know the person who opened > the Chamber of Secrets last time was expelled FIFTY YEARS AGO. we > know TM Riddle got an award for special services to the school FIFTY > YEARS AGO.' > (CoS, p.174 UK edition) To me that still doesn't definitively show the diary is exactly 50 years old - though I agree that it very likely is. Hermione's emphasis, to me, seems to have more to do with the fact that she believes she's made a connection that Ron is so thick that he's missed it. I don't think the emphasis necessarily implies the diary is *exactly* 50 years old. I'm not saying it's not likely that it is - I just don't think it's an absolutely certain fact. Does it say *anywhere* that the diary (or the shield) is *exactly* 50 years old, or that the Chamber was opened *exactly* fifty years ago? It might for all I know - I can't find any such reference myself. Fifty years is a very round number - it's very often that somebody will refer to something happening 50 years ago when it was actually (say) 48 years ago, or 52 years ago. We're working from a 1992/93 date for Chamber of Secrets and reading 50 years before - and assuming that *MUST BE* 1942/1943. But unless we have a clear, definitive statement somewhere that says the Riddle-era opening of the chamber occurred *exactly* 50 years ago, I'm not sure we can be that precise. People often aren't. These are some of the references I can find. Page numbers are the Australian printings, which I believe have the same page numbers as the British editions. "'You know I haven't, Goyle, how many times do I have to tell you?' snapped Malfoy. 'And Father won't tell me anything about the last time the Chamber was opened either. Of course, it was fifty years ago, so it was before his time, but he knows all about it, and he says that it was all kept quiet and it'll look suspicious if I know too much about it. But I know one thing - last time the Chamber of Secrets was opened, a Mudblood died. So I bet it's a matter of time before one of them's killed this time... I hope it's Granger,' he said with relish." (CoS, p.167). "Harry saw at once that it was a diary, and the faded year on the cover told him it was fifty years old. He opened it eagerly. On the first page he could just make out the name 'T M. Riddle' in smudged ink. 'Hang on,' said Ron, who had approached cautiously and was looking over Harry's shoulder. 'I know that name... T. M. Riddle got an award for special services to the school fifty years ago.'" (CoS, p.172-173) "'Well, the Chamber of Secrets was opened fifty years ago, wasn't it?' he said. 'That's what Malfoy said.' 'Yeah...' said Ron slowly. 'And this diary is fifty years old,' said Hermione, tapping it excitedly. 'So?' 'Oh, Ron, wake up,' snapped Hermione. 'We know the person who opened the Chamber last time was expelled fifty years ago. We know T. M. Riddle got an award for special services to the school fifty years ago. Well, what if Riddle got his special award for catching the Heir of Slytherin? His diary would probably tell us everything - where the Chamber is, and how to open it, and what sort of creature lives in it - the person who's behind the attacks this time woulfn't want that lying around, would they?'" (CoS, p.174) Now, none of them say *exactly* fifty years (and while there are other references, none of them I can find say *exactly* fifty years either). In fact, at the time, Hermione talks about the fact that the Chamber was opened 50 years ago, that the diary is 50 years old, and that Tom Riddle receive his award, 50 years ago - at that point, the only thing she has seen first hand is the *Diary*. She hasn't seen the shield. She wasn't there for what Malfoy said. Her information does lack precision but she still makes the connection. So the connection doesn't seem to be made based on *precise* information. All the dates *COULD* be exactly 50 years ago - I'm just wondering though, if we're making a mistake of taking an *approximate* dating and assuming it's precise. In fact - one clear point, that needs to be considered. Using the Lexicon calendar, Ron sees Tom Riddle's shield on September 5th, 1992. Harry and Ron under the Polyjuice potion hear Malfoy say the chamber was opened 50 years ago on December 25th, 1992. Harry acquires the Diary sometime in January 1993. If the Diary is *exactly* 50 years old, that would suggest it's cover date is 1943. That was the assumption the Lexicon originally used. *But* the Chamber of Secrets DVD contains a timeline that apparently was reviewed and approved by JKR. And that timeline places the Riddle era opening of the Chamber of Secrets in 1941/1942. If that's so, we basically know the description of the diary as 50 years old is *approximate* - because Harry was looking at a 1942 diary in January 1993. Now that doesn't change things in terms of my arguments about Vauxhall Road - because whether it was a 1942 or a 1943 diary, Tom still couldn't have bought it prior to the orphanages evacuation in September 1939 (not unless it was an add your own date diary, or a five year diary or something like that - which we have absolutely no evidence for). But I do think we need to be careful not to always assume dates are precise, just because we have nice round numbers. > On the issue of paper shortages and rationing - yes, they were quite > severe, and I would have thought that this would have pushed the > price up. Which makes me question even more where or how a poor > orphan boy found the muggle money to buy it. > > So what if he didn't ? A further thought is that it was bought for > him by a muggle who could afford it. This would avoid the need for > Tom to be anywhere near dangerous, war-torn muggle London (though, I > suppose it wouldn't have been a dangerous place for a wizard, who > could protect himself from danger). Actually, I think it would most likely be very nearly as dangerous for a Wizard - often death came fairly suddenly, before you would have had time to protect yourself. As for the idea that somebody else could have bought it, of course they could have - although that would wreck Harry's piece of deduction: "'He must have been Muggle-born,' said Harry, 'to have bought a diary from Vauxhall Road.'" Personally my view is there are plenty of ways Tom could have got a diary from Vauxhall Road - I don't see that as a major problem. But it was an issue somebody did raise in the thread, so I thought I'd consider it. There's lots of other possibilities - most raids on London were at night - it was relatively safe during daylight hours. It's possible that children from the Orphanage could have been brought into London during daylight hours to see dentists, or doctors (after all, their records would have probably been stored with medical practitioners in the Stockwell area. The Clapham Road buildings were still used for administration purposes during the war - and it's possible if children were brought into London occasionally, they might have even slept there on odd occasions (that's total speculation - but it's worth noting, perhaps, that Stockwell Station, very near the orphanage, was used as an informal air raid shelter throughout the war - it was a pretty safe location to be in (eventually a proper shelter - one of the largest in London - was built under the station, but that wasn't open to public use until 1944). > On the other hand (sorry, thinking aloud here), Tom would not have > been able to use magic to protect himself, as an under-age wizard at > the time (and as a star pupil and prefect he would have been noticed > if he had; this was long before he went really bad). Wonder whether > the MoM was as officious in policing this in wartime London. Clause Seven of the Decree for the Reasonable Restriction of Underage Sorcery states that magic may be used before Muggles in exceptional circumstances including where the life of wizard or witch, or any witches, wizards of Muggles present is under threat. (OotP, p.135). So, I guess he'd have got away with it. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Thu Dec 18 01:55:47 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918 at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 01:55:47 -0000 Subject: YEW and HP connections In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87258 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rredordead at a wrote:...Some are some very interesting connections between the Yew tree and Harry Potter: Yew tree is represent by the Rune Eihwaz. Yep, that's the Rune that is shaped like the lighting bolt. Interesting connection.....coincidence? I don't think so... The Sergeant Majorette says Nor do I. OotP p.715 (American ed.): "How were the runes?" said Ron, yawning and stretching. "I mistranslated 'ehwaz'" said Hermione furiously. It means 'partnership,' not 'defense,' I mixed it up with 'eihwaz.'" "Ah, well," said Ron lazily, "that's only one mistake, isn't it, you'll still get--" "Oh shut up," said Hermione angrily, "it could be the one mistake that makes the difference between a pass and a fail..." (cue spooky music...) --JDR From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Dec 18 06:57:44 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 17:57:44 +1100 Subject: More on Vauxhall Road In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FE1EA98.29319.128105F@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 87259 I'm just reading this Survey of London looking at the Vauxhall area. I found a little snippet that might interest people - at the time, Tom Riddle might have been wondering around Vauxhall Road (Kennington Lane) (sometime in the early 1940s), gasholders at the gasworks that were located between Vauxhall Street and Montford Place, were quite famous for the fact that they were adorned with 'Phoenix devices'. I don't think this has much real relevance - just a little tidbit associating the phoenix with the area. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Dec 18 07:49:16 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 07:49:16 -0000 Subject: And what about Madame Marsh ?(was Regarding Bill) In-Reply-To: <3FE0BF5F.3020105@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87260 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, digger wrote: digger: > > Ah, Madame Marsh, the witch with chronic travel sickness ;-) I was > thinking about her today. Abergavenny is in Wales, and it is > not-quite-but-almost on a straight route to Surrey via Bristol. I was > just musing on the possibility of Godric's Hollow being somewhere close > to Abergavenny. How about Madame Marsh was a neighbour of the Potters? Geoff: Depends what you mean by a not-quite-but-almost(!) and which route you mean. In POA, the Knight Bus goes from Little Whinging to Abergavenny and finally gets to London via Angelsea and Aberdeen which a very convoluted trip. This is reminiscent of the old English joke about going from London to Brighton via Inverness (which in practice would be travelling about 1000 miles in order to go 50). In OOTP, part of the journey at least is London via Birmingham to presumably Abergavenny (not actually named)and then Hogsmeade. This is much less tortuous than Harry's first journey but still a somewhat bent straight line. Geoff From spang_b at yahoo.co.in Thu Dec 18 03:53:23 2003 From: spang_b at yahoo.co.in (spang_b at yahoo.co.in) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 03:53:23 -0000 Subject: How's Harry going to learn the curses? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87261 Traveller rose writes: >Yes, and remember that Dumbledore says that there are worse things > than death, and that not realising that is one of Voldemort's >biggest > mistakes I think Dumbledore said this to cover up. He believes in the prophecy and thinks Harry is the one who will dispose of Voldemort. So when Voldemort challenged him, he said this to cover up for the fact that he was not going to attempt to kill Voldemort. And this leads me to an interesting point: Will Voldemort put two and two together and get the idea that since the prophecy was made for Harry, Dumbledore does not have a chance against him? spangb From spang_b at yahoo.co.in Thu Dec 18 04:13:26 2003 From: spang_b at yahoo.co.in (spang_b at yahoo.co.in) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 04:13:26 -0000 Subject: Luna Lovegood can see the future. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87262 Mandy: >Very interesting and it occurred to me while reading your post that > another reason she may not to tell anyone is because of the way Seers > and practioners of Divination are treated in the WW. Only those of > exceptional ability and have been able to prove that ability are > treated with any kind of respect. I'm sure that if the teenage > daughter of the publisher of the Quibbler started to claim she could > see the future, she would be laughed out of the room. > Well, Luna also believes in a lot of tosh nobody else would. Like those crumplehorned thingies and heliopaths etc. So if she is a seer we'd have to accept all those things also. And if she starts seing future and knows it, I think it would not have been concealed or hidden from others. Thats exactly the kind of thing that Quibbler would go for. She would have been ardently admired by her mag's loyal readership and I would say many of Hogwarts students wold too.( lavender and Parvati, for example). Her character is best explained by her character alone. I mean she is one those original people who are not interested in mundane everyday reality but spend lives believing in ufos and other conspiracies..after all magic is magical to us muggles but it would be mundane to those inhabiting the magical world. As for Ron, I think she was impressed by Ron's wit than anything else. I think she will play a large role in future but this is not it. spangb From spang_b at yahoo.co.in Thu Dec 18 04:26:28 2003 From: spang_b at yahoo.co.in (spang_b at yahoo.co.in) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 04:26:28 -0000 Subject: How's Harry going to learn the curses? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87263 Jazmyn writes: > Harry should NEVER learn those curses. They are illegal and called > 'Unforgivables' for a reason. He can find some other way to kill > Voldemort then breaking the law to do it. IMO, Harry should NOT ever > have to kill anyone. He is JUST A KID--- If Harry shouldn't do the killing because he is a kid, then why would Dumbledore be so afraid to tell him about the prophecy? He could have just said," Harry you are in danger but just be careful, we'll do all the dirty work." He told Harry about the prophecy and he did not kill Voldemort himself because of his belief that it is Harry's job to vanquish the Dark Lord. I agree that the prophecy says ' vanquish' and this does not automatically mean 'kill'. But a sentence from OOTP goes something like this--- either way his life would in murder(quoting from memory). So Harry will have to kill Voldemort or will be killed himself. And as I said, he might not use unforgiveable curses on Voldemort but he will use them on others. And they don't seem to be so unforgiveable after all. The fake Moody used Imperius curse on Harry. I think Dumbledore allowed this so that Harry will be trained to thwart off that curse when it is applied on him. So Dumbledore already made an exception for Harry's sake. He might make more. spangb PS: Yeah, I will look up the previous threads. Thanks. From tsuki_no_miko at hotmail.com Thu Dec 18 09:12:40 2003 From: tsuki_no_miko at hotmail.com (Ali) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 04:12:40 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Large predictions for last 2 books. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87264 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, vmonte at yahoo.com wrote: > I'm new so please forgive me if I make posting errors. > > Ok, some of what I'm writing here is pieced from clues I've picked up > from all the books and some of it comes from bits of info I've read > on several postings--from fan sites. (Some of this may be obvious > info.) > Ali here: I think a couple of these points are a little too outrageous to happen, though I agree with many of them. I've snipped out a few bits in my reply but have left most of the email in tact. vmonte at yahoo.com again: > Hermione with the help of a certain elf will enlist the other elves > in the fight against evil. Her S.P.E.W. campaign begins to start > working for her. The rest of the elves realize that it is in their > interest to protect the good guys (job security). Ali: While that would be nice, I see SPEW going the ways of Voldie. In other words, I really think SPEW is going to end up being Hermione's first failure at something. There's far too much loyal tradition within the house elf world for Hermione to succeed with SPEW, especially not within 2 years. vmonte at yahoo.com again: > Hermione figures something out that helps Harry beat Voldemort (duh, > she always does). Ali: This may or may not happen. I'm actually slightly leaning towards not. Harry is slowly growing in the series, and truly coming into his own will mean that he may have to take on the Voldie issue by himself. However, I definitely see Hermione being, at the very least, a big moral factor if not, as you predict, a pivotal figure. vmonte at yahoo.com again: > Percy is evil and will have something to do with Ron's fall. I've > tried to rationalize Percy too much in the past. I now do not think > that he is under anyone's curse, nor that he is working under cover. > Sometimes there is just one bad seed in the family. Ali: I have to disagree on this one. Percy is somewhat of a bad seed, yes, but I don't think he's really evil. He may not agree with his family's views, but to say that Percy will have something to do with the downfall of a member of his own family is carrying the theory out too far. I think that, though he is quite ambitious, Percy is inherently a good guy doing what he feels is morally correct. Thus said, I can't support the idea that Percy is evil. vmonte at yahoo.com again: > George and Fred will also be part of Ron's army, supplying ammunition > and weapons. These two are not to be underestimated. Ali: I'll agree on the George & Fred helping out (though possibly not as part of Ron's army since I don't really think the idea of Ron's army works - just too out there for me). However, I don't think their role will be in terms of ammunition & weapons supplier. I think *that* underestimates them. To be sure, they've got a bundle of tricks up their sleeves and are quite talented, but in saying that, it is the reason why I think they'll play a more pivotal role than merely being suppliers. vmonte at yahoo.com again: > One of the children will be shown to be a direct heir of Slytherin > but is not evil. This child may help to unite the houses. Luna > Lovegood? Ali: I don't know...this idea just doesn't strike me as being very likely to happen. Would you care to explain how you came up with this? I'm interested. vmonte at yahoo.com again: > Someone will go back to OOTP headquarters and read a book there > called: > Nature's Nobility: A Wizarding Geneology . (Hermione?) This person > will realize that the Weasley's are directly descended from Godric > Gryffindor. (Is there any family braver or worthier than the Weasleys- > -I think not!) Harry may also be related to Godric via one side of > his family. Ali: Again, I really don't think that it is likely. I don't particularly know why, but the idea of making people direct heirs like that seems too much of a cop-out for JKR, and she doesn't strike me as the "deus ex machina" type. vmonte at yahoo.com again: > Petunia may have been threatened by Voldemort. She probably knows him > up close and personal, and not by listening in on her sister's > conversations. Voldemort may have gotten to Petunia (when he was > searching for the Potter's)before he reached word from wormtail. He > may have threatened Petunia or her son with a dementor. In fact > Dudley's worst memory may be that he previously had an encounter with > a dementor as a baby! (I hardly doubt that Dudley's worst fear was > getting a pigtail.) Ali: I like this idea, and it certainly would make sense that Voldemort went after Petunia. That may also explain Petunia's distinct hatred of the WW in general and Lily in particular. However, it does not explain why Petunia is alive after Voldie went after her. Plot hole... vmonte at yahoo.com again: > Dudley may realize the fear he caused to others while he was a bully > and may give Harry important information from his vision. (Rowling > has said that she feels sorry for Dudley because his parents actions > towards him amounts to child abuse and that they have not prepared > him for the real world.) Ali: Again, this seems a little like a deus ex machina to me. Plus there's all the stigma that Dudley & Harry have to overcome for this event to happen; those two do hate each other, after all, and are not likely to take the others word at face value. While Dudley may have valuable information, I doubt that it can be valuable enough to cause this momentous event in the two's relationship. vmonte at yahoo.com again: > Rowling has stated that someone will gain magical powers late in life > and that it is very rare in the wizard world. Petunia and her family > may be put in another life and death situation and Petunia's magic > may emerge. She may end up killing someone important to the death > eaters because she takes them unawares. Ali: I don't know. I've never even thought about Petunia. My opinion has always leaned toward Filch. vmonte at yahoo.com again: > Mark Evans a first year in book 6 will become important and may be > related to Harry via his mother's side. Ali: He will become important, but I don't think the relation to Harry's mother will come into play. vmonte at yahoo.com again: > Olivander is a death eater???? (In fact there will probabLY be a lot > of unkown death eaters that are revealed.) Ali: I'm sorry; I don't think so. Olivander said that no two wands (the twin wands) can be used against each other so why would Olivander give Harry the twin wand to Voldemort? vmonte at yahoo.com again: > Harry will also be the new Defense against the Dark arts teacher. Why > Not! Who cares that he hasn't graduated yet (this is not the real > world you know). > He already started teaching the kids in OOTP! If Lockhart can be > hired, Harry can. Ali: That sounds like much fun, but I highly doubt it. Then there's also the question of how he'll teach the 7th years. Granted, he's good. He is not, however, that good. vmonte at yahoo.com again: > Finally, the cost of making these films will be enormous! LOL ^_^ Totally agree. The costs will be astronomical. ~Ali From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Dec 18 01:55:29 2003 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 01:55:29 -0000 Subject: Luna Lovegood can see the future. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87265 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rredordead at a... wrote: > vmonte at y... wrote: > > I think Luna may be able to see the future. I don't think > she has completely mastered it, but the idea makes sense if you > think about some of her behavior in OOTP. > Mandy here: > The more I think about it, what a curse that would be for a child to > carry around. It might explain why she is such an outcast and > dosen't seem affected by the petty way the other kids treat her. Luna > does seem resigned to her fate in life. You are brilliant!!! Your observations are fabulous! I think that we've figured out something here. I was also thinking that her father's newspaper, even though it is a tabloid, has a lot of truth in it. Harry reads some of the articles on the train ride to school and mixed in with the sensational is some truth. Example: S. Black is innocent! Maybe Luna is supplying her dad with information but her dad is camouflaging it so that it cannot be traced to back to their family. "vmonte" From siriusxisxmyxlover at yahoo.com Wed Dec 17 23:43:37 2003 From: siriusxisxmyxlover at yahoo.com (Samantha Hilsenrod) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 15:43:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mr Ollivander (was:In bed with Harry Potter) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031217234337.81694.qmail@web40206.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87266 Hey, I bought up this point in a post: red robes, green eyes; green robes, red eyes. Or something like that. I'm not sure of the exact name. It's at the end of the post when I went on a bit of a tangent. Well, your point makes a lot of sense because Dumbledore specifically stated in COS that almost no one knows that Voldie was once Tom Riddle. I don't think this would be Voldie's second wand or anything because it seems like a wand that would be destined for him if you get my drift, that would choose him in the begignning. He is one of the select few that knows Voldemort's true identity. Not even McGonnagal knows, and Dumbledore seems to really trust her, she is Deputy Headmistress. In COS Dumbledore and McGonnagal bring Colin Creevy into the Hospital Wing after he is petrified and McGonnagal says, "Who?" and Dumbledore says, "the question is not who but how." (Not exact, not books avalible). Well, Dumbledore knew who (Voldemort) but obviously McGonnagal didn't, signifying she did not know that Voldemort was once Tom Riddle. Toodles. "siriusxisxmyxlover" From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Dec 18 10:55:55 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:55:55 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall Road again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87267 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, carolynwhite2 at a... wrote: Carolyn: > On the issue of paper shortages and rationing - yes, they were quite > severe, and I would have thought that this would have pushed the > price up. Which makes me question even more where or how a poor > orphan boy found the muggle money to buy it. > > So what if he didn't ? A further thought is that it was bought for > him by a muggle who could afford it. This would avoid the need for > Tom to be anywhere near dangerous, war-torn muggle London (though, I > suppose it wouldn't have been a dangerous place for a wizard, who > could protect himself from danger). Geoff: This was probably not as dangerous a situation as you think. The last big air raids of the "Blitz" on London were in May 1941 and 1942/3 saw very sporadic occurrences. in fact, at the beginning of 1943, some of the blackout restrictions were relaxed. As I remarked in a previous post, things didn't really warm up again until the V1 attacks began in the summer of 1944 followed by the V2 campaign later in the year. So Tom and others of his generation would have been able to move around London fairly safely. From meriaugust at yahoo.com Thu Dec 18 12:20:57 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 12:20:57 -0000 Subject: How's Harry going to learn the curses? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87268 > Jazmyn writes: > > Harry should NEVER learn those curses. They are illegal and called > > 'Unforgivables' for a reason. He can find some other way to kill > > Voldemort then breaking the law to do it. IMO, Harry should NOT ever > > have to kill anyone. He is JUST A KID--- snipped Those are admirable sentiments, and ones I wish exist in the real world, but the WW is at war, and in the real world it is kids, people mostly between the ages of seventeen and twenty five, who do the fighting and the dying and the killing in wars, not the grown up leaders or gernerals. I'm guessing that Lily and James Potter being so young when they were killed was not an anomaly. There are probably going to be more young kids dying, and even fighting. It's a sad fact, but one we have to live with. I don't want Harry to have to kill, but in a war, how is someone of his age and stature (relating to the prophecy of course) supposed to avoid it? JKR makes a point of making her fantasy world very realistic, and after all, it's boys a few years older than Harry's age that get shipped to the front in real world war. Meri - apologozing for the morbid subject matter. From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Dec 18 13:51:09 2003 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 13:51:09 -0000 Subject: Luna Lovegood can see the future. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87269 Mandy: Very interesting and it occurred to me while reading your post that another reason she may not to tell anyone is because of the way Seers and practioners of Divination are treated in the WW. Only those of exceptional ability and have been able to prove that ability are treated with any kind of respect. I'm sure that if the teenage daughter of the publisher of the Quibbler started to claim she could see the future, she would be laughed out of the room. spangb: Well, Luna also believes in a lot of tosh nobody else would. Like those crumplehorned thingies and heliopaths etc. So if she is a seer we'd have to accept all those things also. And if she starts seing future and knows it, I think it would not have been concealed or hidden from others. Thats exactly the kind of thing that Quibbler would go for. She would have been ardently admired by her mag's loyal readership... vmonte: Maybe being a flake comes with the territory of a Seer! Your response is something Hermione would say. Which reminds me that Hermione also thought that Trelawny was a flake/fake and it just so happens that Trelawny is responsible for the prophesy. (In fact, Hermione reacts to Luna and Trelawny in much the same way.) I think Mandy makes some excellent points about the way Seers are treated in general. People who can see the future may not have complete control of their gift. Maybe all Seers are a little LOONEY (or become looney)! For example- What would it be like to know that your mother is going to die and not be able to stop it? I think the Quibbler is a metaphor for Luna. Among the sensational/ludicrous stories, is truth. Remember this headline: Sirius Black -- Black As He's Painted? Notorious Mass Murder OR Innocent Singing Sensation? The first two paragraphs of the article state that Sirius is not guilty of mass murder and that he may not even have been present at the killings--the rest of the article is typical tabloid stuff. It is possible that only bits and pieces of information are received by the Seer. Again, being a nut may be part of the territory! I love Luna's character--I think she is incredibly interesting. From spang_b at yahoo.co.in Thu Dec 18 14:10:51 2003 From: spang_b at yahoo.co.in (spang_b) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 14:10:51 -0000 Subject: Harry the legilimens Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87270 Hi, I think after what happnened in OOTP Harry will work long and hard at occlumency and get it right. Right now he is just able to get flashes of what Voldemort is upto. But will he realise how valuable this is for him and learn and actively practise Legilimency to try and break into Voldemort's mind? It could be very informative, to say the least. spangb From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Dec 18 14:51:31 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 14:51:31 -0000 Subject: How's Harry going to learn the curses? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87271 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, aldhelm at e... wrote: >Carin > I suspect that the usual Muggle ways of killing people would not > finish Voldie off, nor, perhaps, would AK. It seems likely that > either method would only do a partial job on Voldie, taking us right > back to where we started in Book 1. What would it take to do away > with his body, soul, and will? How about booting him through the Veil? Sending him off to some sort of after-life of non-existence might do it. After all, I find it stretches things a bit for the veil to have no function other than to remove Sirius. Kneasy From meriaugust at yahoo.com Thu Dec 18 16:10:08 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 16:10:08 -0000 Subject: Large predictions for last 2 books. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87272 major snips > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, vmonte at y... wrote: > vmonte at y... again: > > Olivander is a death eater???? (In fact there will probabLY be a lot > > of unkown death eaters that are revealed.) > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote > Ali: > I'm sorry; I don't think so. Olivander said that no two wands (the twin > wands) can be used against each other so why would Olivander give Harry the > twin wand to Voldemort? more snips Now Meri: Two minor points: 1: Was it Ollivander who said that no town wands would work against each other? I thought that was Dumbledore in GoF right after the third task, explaining to Harry why his and LV's wands went all wacky. Then again I am at school and don't have my books with me, so you could be right. 2: I am under the impression that since it is the wand who chooses the wizard, Ollivander has no choice about which wand to sell to a customer who has allready been chosen by a wand. What would he do with a wand that he couldn't sell to any one else (I doubt that Harry's wand would have chosen any other wizard)? Besides, with Hagrid in the room while Harry was trying out wands it would have raised too many questions, from Hagrid at the least, if Ollivander had snatched the obviously functioning wand from Harry's hand and said, "Well, let's just try another, shall we?" Even Harry, I think, knew that that wand was the one and would have questioned Ollivander if he had taken it away. Also, I am personally undedcided, like most list members it seeems, as to which side Ollivander owes his loyalties to. I like the speculation that he is a DE and that he knows LV's "secret identity" is Tom Riddle. If this is true then I am guessing that he may be very high up in LV's circle, possibly one of his highest placed spies. If he is that high up it is possible that he knows about the existence of the prophecy. If he does know about it and he sees the boy who everyone assumes is the fulfillment of that prophecy walk into his shop, why shouldn't he give him LV's twin wand? Even if LV can't use it against Harry, Harry also cannot use it against LV, Just a few wand thoughts. Meri From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 18 17:39:55 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 17:39:55 -0000 Subject: Large predictions for last 2 books. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87273 vmonte wrote: Percy is evil and will have something to do with Ron's fall. I've tried to rationalize Percy too much in the past. I now do not think that he is under anyone's curse, nor that he is working under cover. Sometimes there is just one bad seed in the family. Ali: I have to disagree on this one. Percy is somewhat of a bad seed, yes, but I don't think he's really evil. He may not agree with his family's views, but to say that Percy will have something to do with the downfall of a member of his own family is carrying the theory out too far. I think that, though he is quite ambitious, Percy is inherently a good guy doing what he feels is morally correct. Thus said, I can't support the idea that Percy is evil. Carol: Poor Weatherby! I don't think he's evil, only deluded--and trapped in a pattern of behavior only partially of his own creation. But if we look at his actions in GoF, "The Second Task," we can see that he genuinely loves his youngest brother and fears for his life among the merpeople. Percy has to be pried away from Ron, who is embarrassed by his brother's open and emotional affection. This, I think, is the real Percy, who would welcome a return to his family *if only* they'd recognize his achievements and apologize for insulting him. Ron, too, has trouble saying that he's sorry and has to wait for the other person to say it first. Look at his fights with Hermione. I do see trouble in store for Percy, but I don't think for a moment that he's evil. (He has a bad case of "good boy" syndrome, as bboy says.) Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 18 17:51:50 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 17:51:50 -0000 Subject: How's Harry going to learn the curses? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87274 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > > > Jazmyn writes: > > > Harry should NEVER learn those curses. They are illegal and > called > > > 'Unforgivables' for a reason. He can find some other way to kill > > > Voldemort then breaking the law to do it. IMO, Harry should NOT > ever > > > have to kill anyone. He is JUST A KID--- > > snipped > > Those are admirable sentiments, and ones I wish exist in the real > world, but the WW is at war, and in the real world it is kids, > people mostly between the ages of seventeen and twenty five, who do > the fighting and the dying and the killing in wars, not the grown up > leaders or gernerals. I'm guessing that Lily and James Potter being > so young when they were killed was not an anomaly. There are > probably going to be more young kids dying, and even fighting. It's > a sad fact, but one we have to live with. I don't want Harry to have > to kill, but in a war, how is someone of his age and stature > (relating to the prophecy of course) supposed to avoid it? JKR makes > a point of making her fantasy world very realistic, and after all, > it's boys a few years older than Harry's age that get shipped to the > front in real world war. > Meri - apologozing for the morbid subject matter. Carol: Yes, but there are other ways to fight, and even to kill, than the unforgiveable curses. The end does not justify the means, and Good cannot use Evil means and remain Good. Dumbledore has powers that he's too noble to use, and I'm sure we'll find that the same is true of Harry (and Neville and the rest). Carol, who hopes that the next DADA teacher will teach the kids something really useful! From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Dec 18 18:59:28 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 18:59:28 -0000 Subject: Alternate Endings (was: Hows Harry going to learn...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87275 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, aldhelm at e... wrote: > >Carin > > I suspect that the usual Muggle ways of killing people would not > > finish Voldie off, nor, perhaps, would AK. It seems likely that > > either method would only do a partial job on Voldie, taking us > > right back to where we started in Book 1. What would it take to > > do away with his body, soul, and will? > Kneasy: > > How about booting him through the Veil? > Sending him off to some sort of after-life of non-existence might > do it. > > After all, I find it stretches things a bit for the veil to have no > function other than to remove Sirius. > > Kneasy bboy_mn: Well, I'm of two minds on this issue; actually, I'm of several minds but the doctor says if I keep taking my medication, I'll be OK. ;) To Carin's point that maybe Voldemort will be once again reduced to Vapormort is not that far fetched. Remember Moody's admonition, 'Constant Vigilance!'. With the Dark Lord vanquished and reduce to Vapor, once again, the wizard world is safe. But evil never truly goes away. Sadam (or insert evil dictator of choice) has fallen but another fanatical dictator waits in the wings to take his place. Good men and women must stay constantly vigilant lest evil creep in and take over while we are not looking. Complacence is the doorstep upon which evil treads. (I'm trying to be profound; is it working?) So, the 'right back where we started from' ending, I think is a very valid and possible ending for the story. The future holds a new Dark Lord and a new young hero, and the never ending struggle between good and evil continues. An alternate version of the 'live evilly ever after' school of thought, is that as Harry & Co. are fighting against Voldemort, Draco is growing ever more evil and vicious. In the end, Voldemort is totally defeated, but Draco goes off to re-form a force of evil which he will bring against the wizard world. One Dark Lord defeated, Voldemort; and one new Dark Lord born, Draco. And the struggle of good against evil starts again. Constant Vigilance my friends, constant vigilance. Through the Veil to the End- I've considered several 'through the Veil' endings. One problem I have with this though is how and why would Harry and Voldemort be in the Death Chamber? What twisted set of circumstances could draw them both to that location? Option 1 - In the defeat of Voldemort, Voldemort isn't killed, but his spirit is broken. He is racked with guilt and tormented by the thought of the horrible things he has done, or not. Because the magnitude of his crimes are so horrendous, the Wizard Court makes an exception and re-institutes the death penalty. In the Death Chamber, Voldemort is cowering, hysterically frightened by the thought of death. In a magnificent gesture of compassion, Harry offers to walk through the Veil with Voldemort. Although, part of Harry's motivation is that he himself is so beaten and broken by the devastation of war, the he sees little point in going on. Harry and Voldemort walk through the Veil. Voldemort is immediately set upon by the people he has killed. Harry on the other hand is met by James, Lily, and Sirius who are very happy to see him, but tell him he can not stay. Although Harry resists at first, they convince him that it is not his time, and he has a long, valuable, and rewarding life that must be lived out. They also remind him of all the people who love him, who are waiting for him in the mortal world. The sounds of the lamentations of his beloved friends convinces Harry that he must go back. Much to the surprise of everyone, Harry, the first person in history to ever do so, emerges from behind the Veil. Que the swelling music, hugs all around, jubilation and celebration, fade to black. Option 2 - Harry and Voldemort fight, and either by accident or by Harry's willful intent, they are both thrown through the Veil. Behind the Veil is a replay of Option 1 above. Harry re-emerges, yada-yada, fade to black. Option 3 - Harry and Voldemort fall through the Veil under circumstances suitable to your particular inclination and disposition. Both are dead, and the wizard world honors a great hero. The cost of defeating evil is horribly high, but not as high as letting evil win. ...fade to black. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From hypercolor99 at hotmail.com Thu Dec 18 19:17:09 2003 From: hypercolor99 at hotmail.com (alice_loves_cats) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 19:17:09 -0000 Subject: Luna Lovegood can see the future. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87276 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, vmonte at y... wrote: > Also, I think Luna may be able to see the future. I don't think she > has completely mastered it, but the idea makes sense if you think > about some of her behavior in OOTP. > She hasn't told anyone because she has knowledge that it would be > better not to, hasn't needed to, knows the future is not fixed, > doesn't want Voldemort to find out, and most importantly doesn't want > to give the last two books away for JKR Rowling. I think Rowling > didn't bring Luna into the picture until now because she was afraid > the character would give too much away (and someone annoying like me > would figure it out). Alice: I think this is a really good idea. I'm not sure it's right, but hey I'd love it to be. If it were, my take on it would be as follows: She is not a Seer in the way Trelawney is, spitting out predicitions/prophecies at random moments and not remembering having ever said them afterwards. Maybe there's another form to Seeing. Like old Snape said about mind-reading: it's not as simple as that, you can't just open the mind like a book and start reading. So maybe you can't just open the future like a book and start reading. But Luna may have the gift to FEEL certain things, have notions about what TYPE of thing is going to happen, not always but more often than not, and definitely more often than Hag Trelawney. These feelings may not be easy to interpret, even to herself. So she doesn't talk. Love, Alice ---desperate for a Heliopath (spirits of flame, weren't they, or does my memory betray me?) to appear... they sound like fun & danger From houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Thu Dec 18 20:03:10 2003 From: houseofbohacek at earthlink.net (Gail Bohacek) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 15:03:10 -0500 Subject: (FILK) Hermione's Revenge Message-ID: <410-22003124182031086@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 87277 Hermione's Revenge (Yet another FILK to the tune of "The Meek Shall Inherit" from the musical "Little Shop of Horrors") Be patient with me, folks...I've only got a few more songs to complete... I'll be finished with this musical and then it's back to the Beatles. Dedicated to Frankus Midi is here: http://addagirl.com/littleshop.htm (Scene: In front of the Gryffindor Common Room scrim, Harry is reading reading a copy of The Daily Prophet. Hermione is nearby. Alicia, Katie and Angelina are off to one side. Ron enters stage right.) (Cue music for "Hermione's Revenge") Ron: (Spoken): Hermione! Remember how you got mad at that Skeeter cow at theThree Broomsticks a while ago? Well, you should see what she wrote about you! (Singing): Hey Harry Potter, you read this? The Daily Prophet, you're on the front page I knew that Skeeter would be pissed After Hermione vented her rage "Harry Potter's Secret Heartache By a Miss Granger, who is Muggle born Playing with two people's affections Potter and Krum, both of them should be warned!" Alicia, Katie and Angelina: They really hate Rita Skeeter For the stories she creates She may not be a Death Eater But she sure shares the same traits The Trio want to defeat her Finding how she infiltrates Hermione is gonna get Miss Rita Skeeter, just you wait Harry (spoken): You haven't read her most recent fabrication, Ron... (Singing): This has become ridiculous Here is today's news, look at the headline Says here, "Disturbed and Dangerous" My brain is addled by that scar of mine "Scar hurt so bad, left his lesson Makes him unstable," is what Skeeter wrote Says that I may just want attention And I speak Parseltounge - a Malfoy quote Hermione: Skeeter is writing all of this scandal Tried to ignore it but I Cannot anymore She is behaving Just like a vandal Assassinating our character - this means war! How can they print this? I don't believe it They're not reporting truth It's tabloid, that is why People who read and Those with naive wit Accept all of her nasty, awful ,evil, lies How? How? She's not allowed into the school How? How? Wasn't there but somehow she knew How? How? It's our reputation that's being attacked Before that she wrote and Hagrid almost got sacked Somebody must stop her, she's a maniac Somehow I must get Skeeter back! (Hermione looks out the window) Just see, there's Malfoy, I bet that boy Is in on the ploy with his wicked Slyth'rin band Looks like he's whisp'ring, looks like he's talking To something which he is holding tight in his hand (Alicia, Katie, Angelina): They really hate Rita Skeeter Ron: What could it be? (For the stories she creates) Harry: A bug, maybe? (When Hermione hears this, her eyes open wide as she is thinking of something. She thoughtfully brushes her hand over her hair and then pretends to be speaking to something she is holding in her hand) (She may not be a Death Eater) Harry: Or walkie-talkie? (But she sure shares the same traits) Ron (Watching Hermione's odd behavior): Hermione? (The Trio want to defeat her) Hermione: That's how she spies! (Finding how she infiltrates) Hermione: Animagi! (Hermione runs off to the library, exiting stage right.) (Hermione is gonna get Miss Rita Skeeter) Ron and Harry Join in: Hermione is gonna get Miss Rita Skeeter Hermione is gonna get Miss Rita Skeeter Just you wait -Gail B. houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Why Wait? Move to EarthLink. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alina at distantplace.net Thu Dec 18 20:18:37 2003 From: alina at distantplace.net (arealin) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 20:18:37 -0000 Subject: dumbledore, chocolate frogs and portrait hopping (book five info included) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87278 Hope I'm not repeating anyone's earlier email, I did do a search to make sure I'm not. I recently bought the Unofficial Guide To the HP Mysteries. Don't ask me why, I guess I'm either that crazy or that obsessed. It did make me think of a couple of things, here's one of them. In book five we find out that portrayed people are able to hop between their portraits. 1. Can people move between their photographs as well? 2. Does it only work for portraits of dead people or can portraits of people who are alive do it as well? 3. If answer to 2 is yes, does that mean someone like Dumbledore can enter almost any wizarding family's house through his Chocolate Frog Card? If all that was possible, that's an even more convenient means of communication than owl post or floo fireplaces, isn't it? You just hand out chocolate frog cards of a certain person to everyone you need to contact quickly and voila! From chiara.fantoni at cec.eu.int Thu Dec 18 16:20:11 2003 From: chiara.fantoni at cec.eu.int (chiara.fantoni at cec.eu.int) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 17:20:11 +0100 Subject: Are the gum wrappers a puzzle? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87279 What if the gum wrappers Neville's mum gives out are pieces of a single puzzle? Just imagine a huge puzzle which is meant to go over whole walls (Neville's granny telling him he could paper his room)... It would take a considerable amount of time to put all the pieces together in the right sequence... And then suddenly, the puzzle is complete and there lies the solution to the Longbottoms madness. Just my old love for puzzles coming out again from the depths of times. Chiara From alina at distantplace.net Thu Dec 18 20:24:29 2003 From: alina at distantplace.net (arealin) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 20:24:29 -0000 Subject: Are the gum wrappers a puzzle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87280 > What if the gum wrappers Neville's mum gives out are pieces of a single > puzzle? > Chiara I don't know, I always thought the gumwrapper bit was just to make an emotional moment and make us feel even deeper for Neville and his family. Then again, Rowling never wastes a word or an opportunity, does she? Alina. From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Thu Dec 18 20:13:12 2003 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (Najwa Issa) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 15:13:12 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: Sirius' s mirror References: <1071743639.3011.97160.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <3FE20A58.000001.03692@DF39SM21> No: HPFGUIDX 87281 cubs9911 wrote: > I was wondering today what the purpose > will be of the mirror that Sirius gave to Harry. > I wonder if anyone thinks that Harry will need > this sometime in the future. He never got a > chance to use it and I dont think that JKR would > put it there for no other reason than for Harry to > regret never using it. Any ideas. I have been wondering about that for a while now. I think that it has a significance for later, and although JKR has said that Sirius is completely dead, we must remember that Sirius's mother, great grandfather, etc found a means to stay alive in a sense in paintings of them. Maybe this mirror serves a similar purpose? I don't think that the mirror could only serve as a what if. I think that even if Sirius didn't have his mirror on him, doesn t mean he never will (good old Harry has a new adventure to the veil). Also maybe since Harry has the other mirror, Sirius will find means of any mirror to talk to him, sort of like a magical switch board or something. What do you think? From caroline at illustratorene.no Thu Dec 18 20:24:02 2003 From: caroline at illustratorene.no (linocow2000) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 20:24:02 -0000 Subject: Luna Lovegood can see the future. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87282 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, vmonte at y... wrote: > > > Also, I think Luna may be able to see the future.>> <> Now me: Or what if Luna's dad has time-turned them both back FROM the future? That way, Luna would already know how the books end, and so would indeed find the action a bit boring. Don't like thinking about this time stuff too much, as it fries my brain, but whatever Luna's temporal status, I do think that (as has been suggested by others in this group previously) some sort of time travel holds the key to Harry's eventual defeat of Voldemort. Linocow2000 From rmatovic at ssk.com Thu Dec 18 21:05:01 2003 From: rmatovic at ssk.com (Rebecca M) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 21:05:01 -0000 Subject: Sirius' s mirror In-Reply-To: <3FE20A58.000001.03692@DF39SM21> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87283 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Najwa Issa" wrote: > > > cubs9911 wrote: > > I was wondering today what the purpose > > will be of the mirror that Sirius gave to Harry. > > I wonder if anyone thinks that Harry will need > > this sometime in the future. He never got a > > chance to use it and I dont think that JKR would > > put it there for no other reason than for Harry to > > regret never using it. Any ideas. > > I have been wondering about that for a while now. I think that it has a > significance for later, I ocntinue to think that the significance will have to do with Harry realizing that by his failure to use the mirror he condemmed Sirius to death -- after all in OotP all he does is remember the mirror and try to use it to contact Sirius, he doesn't have a "Oh my God, what an idiot I was not to remember this before" moment. I think the plot development of the next couple of books will hinge on Harry getting pulled deep into the issues around the prophecy and his own guilt in Sirius' and, in some ways, even his parents' deaths -- I think he will be even darker and angrier than in book 5 and his anger may lead him away from Dumbledore and to inadvertently aiding V. Rebecca From kkearney at students.miami.edu Thu Dec 18 21:07:46 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 21:07:46 -0000 Subject: Are the gum wrappers a puzzle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87284 Chiara wrote: > And then suddenly, the puzzle is complete and there lies the solution to the > Longbottoms madness. Just a quick comment regarding the message-in-the-gum-wrappers theories. I don't follow most of these threads, but I'm curious as to why most people think the message being sent would be regarding the Longbottoms themselves. I think it much more likely that the Longbottoms really are insane, due to the torture. However, perhaps they learned something just prior to or during that unpleasant experience. Wouldn't it be much more interesting and heroic if they were trying to send this vital information to those who could use it? Much more heroic, in my opinion. Just an incomplete thought; perhaps I'll think more and expand on it later. -Corinth From free_lunch_club at hotmail.com Thu Dec 18 21:10:51 2003 From: free_lunch_club at hotmail.com (thetruthisoutthere_13) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 21:10:51 -0000 Subject: Time Travel is the Key, was Re: Luna Lovegood can see the future. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87285 Linocow2000 wrote: >I do think that (as has been suggested by others in this group >previously) some sort of time travel holds the key to Harry's >eventual defeat of Voldemort. While watching Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure a while back, I suddenly thought of a clue in PoA that might hint to Voldemort's destruction. In PoA, Hermione says something about how time-turners are dangerous because people have ended up killing their past or former selves. The first chapter in GoF talks about a dark-haired boy around the day the Riddles died and implies that its Tom Riddle, but doesn't specifically say it was Riddle, and both Tom Riddle and Harry fit the description. (For that matter, so does a younger James or Snape).I've thought for a while that perhaps Harry somehow lures Voldemort in the past and he somehow meets his destruction on the night that the Riddles died, quite possibly by his former self (Tom kills Voldemort) or later self (Voldemort kills Tom, and thus undoes the various charms/spells he placed on himself for immortality). Harry will somehow still be the undoing of Voldemort without actually becoming a murderer. -kg Bill and Ted's sense of time travel reminds of HP. If Rufus is needed to make sure Bill and Ted pass their history class so they can form the band white stallion, then how did Rufus's society ever come into being, as White Stallion's music is needed to help the cosmos align? Sort of like how Harry is there to cast a patronus spell to save himself. From jakejensen at hotmail.com Thu Dec 18 21:21:47 2003 From: jakejensen at hotmail.com (jakedjensen) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 21:21:47 -0000 Subject: Where is LV's lair? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87286 In book 5 we are offered several glimpses (via HP) of a strange curtained room containing LV. When Snape and HP are practicing; Snape asks HP what "that room" is doing in his head. Based on this statement, we are led to believe that Snape (1) recognizes the room and (2) therefore, has been to the room. All of this begs the question, "where is this room and when was Snape there?" LV's curtained room may be located in Malfoy's manor: Afterall, something is there: ". . . and if the stories are true, you haven't sold me half of what's hidden in your manor . . ." (Mr. Borgin, COS, p. 33) And everyone thinks Snape visits the Malfoys to collect information (see, OoTP, p. 520 & 591) on LV (i.e., it is the only other place we have heard Snape visited) Of course, there are a number of other places it could be: Somewhere in Hogsmeade (The Shrieking Shack? Maybe not...) Somewhere in Nocturn Alley Somewhere in Diagon Alley Somewhere in the Forbidden Forest Somewhere in Little Whining (althought, I doubt it, too obvious) Somewhere near Privet Drive Ideas? Thoughts? Jake From derek at rhinobunny.com Thu Dec 18 21:31:30 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 13:31:30 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Are the gum wrappers a puzzle? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031218131121.01f83d30@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87287 corinthum wrote: >I think it much more likely that the Longbottoms really are insane, >due to the torture. However, perhaps they learned something just >prior to or during that unpleasant experience. Wouldn't it be much >more interesting and heroic if they were trying to send this vital >information to those who could use it? Much more heroic, in my >opinion. Derek: I agree. I think the wrappers *are* significant, but I also think the Longbottoms are geniunely insane (or otherwise affected mentally). I think Alice is desperately trying (via the wrappers) to reach through her madness and either tell Neville something or do something for him. What that might be, I'm not sure. Lily gave her very life to protect Harry. Perhaps Alice, in her sadly mad way, is trying to give Neville something to protect *him*. And I think Neville senses this. He keeps all the wrappers despite his grandmother's dismissal of them. More prosaically, perhaps their attackers, or someone else they want to draw attention to, chews Drooble's gum a lot. If we encounter a character who habitually chews gum, we should probably be wary of them. :-) - Derek From alina at distantplace.net Thu Dec 18 22:11:02 2003 From: alina at distantplace.net (arealin) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 22:11:02 -0000 Subject: Time Travel is the Key, was Re: Luna Lovegood can see the future. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87288 > While watching Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure a while back, I > suddenly thought of a clue in PoA that might hint to Voldemort's > destruction. In PoA, Hermione says something about how time- turners > are dangerous because people have ended up killing their past or > former selves. ).I've thought for a while that perhaps Harry somehow lures > Voldemort in the past and he somehow meets his destruction on the > night that the Riddles died, quite possibly by his former self (Tom kills Voldemort) or later self > -kg Actually, Hermione said people killed their time-travelling selves because they believed some Dark magic caused them to see themselves. Here's the exact quote from the Canadian edition: "I'd - I'd think I'd gone mad," said Harry, "or I'd think there was some Dark Magic going on - " "Exactly! loads of them ended up killing their past or future selves by mistake!" Somehow, I don't think Voldemort would be the type of wizard to panic at a glimpse of his past or future self and AK before asking any questions. Alina. From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Dec 18 22:30:42 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 22:30:42 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall Road again In-Reply-To: <3FE07C9D.17041.61D34B@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87289 Geoff: I'm sorry to keep banging on about this matter but I have certain reservations aboutt he information which Shaun turned up. To justify my interest, I have stated before that I lived in Wandsworth from 1949-94 ecept for 1971-73 when I lived in Wimbeldon (3 miles away) when first married. Shaun: > Most of the following information comes from two volumes of > the 'London County Council: Survey of London' edited by Sir > Howard Roberts, and Walter H. Godfrey, and published by the > London County Council in 1951 and 1956. > > The relevant volumes are Volume XXIII (1951) South Bank & > Vauxhall (Parish of St. Mary Lambeth Part I) and Volume XXVI > (1956) Parish of St. Mary Lambeth Part II: Southern Area. > > Based on these books I can now confirm that Kennington Lane > was legitimately known as Vauxhall Road. Vauxhall Road > consisted of what is today Wandsworth Road and Kennington > Lane. While the newer names have been official for quite a > long time, the name Vauxhall Road has also been used > (especially for businesses) until very recently and could > certainly have been in use at the time, Tom Riddle purchased > his diary. Geoff: I entertain very serious doubts about the total validity of this information, in particular the data about Wandsworth Road. Having lived in the area so long, I have /never/ heard Wandsworth Road referred to as Vauxhall Road. The only other name ever used is "the top road". The reason for this is that there are two routes from Wandsworth to Vauxhall, the road which runs along the top of the plateau via Clapham Junction. The road changes its name a number of times but becomes Wandsworth Road at its eastern end. The other road which follows the line of the river through Battersea and Nine Elms to Vauxhall is "the bottom road" being geographically in the bottom of the Thames valley at this point. My other point is that I have documentary evidence that Wandsworth Road was so named as early as 1906 is not earlier. I am going to try to find out when Wandsworth Road railway station was opened - sometime in the mid-19th century - and whether that was always its name. I have emailed the central reference library at Wandsworth - one of the best municipal reference sources in London to ask whether thay have any information on Wandsworth Road being named Vauxhall Road. I currently await an answer. The oddity is that it would be most unusual to have /two/ Vauxhall Roads from different directions meeting at Vauxhall Cross. Wandsworth Road comes from the south-west while the present Kennington Lane comes in from the east. For both to have the same name would be very confusing. Shaun: > So the other question is why he might have been in this > area. > > Several people have already mentioned the Spurgeon Orphanage > which was very close to the area in question - checking a > map of London, a short walk of about half a mile down > Binfield Road and Landsdowne Way would have taken someone > from the ophanage to Wandsworth Road (part of Vauxhall > Road). No point on the old Vauxhall Road is more than two > miles from the orphanage. Geoff: Being picky, Tom Riddle would have more directly walked straight down Lansdowne Way (or more accurately up it) crossing South Lambeth Road and then across Clapham Road into Stockwell Park Road. Binfield Road would bring him too far south (by a couple of hundred yards) to the main crossing which would involve more awkward crossings of the roads. Returning to my main point, as I said a few days ago, the evidence of the Vauxhall Baptist Church confirming the east end of Kennington Lane to be Vauxhall Road as late as 1942 strengthens my feel that, assuming Riddle picked up the book at the shop named on the label, then oit was along this stretch of road, fairly near for a fit young person used to walking reasonable distances (as we were in them there far-off days of yore...). As an aside, apart from the rather vague Chepstow link I think Shaun (?) mentioned, I wonder why JKR decided that Tom had to have a book from Vauxhall Road apart from a desire to irritate those perfectionists among us who want a large "X marks the spot" on the map? Geoff (looking for somehwere to put down a number of large Xs) :-) From hieya at hotmail.com Thu Dec 18 22:35:50 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 22:35:50 -0000 Subject: Portraits--Can Sirius come back? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87290 I was wondering why more wizards don't create portraits of themselves. Why don't Sirius (and Lily and James) have portraits so that they can be with Harry? If Phineas Nigellus and Sirius's mum can still interact with others after death, why can't Sirius do the same? greatlit2003 From oppen at mycns.net Thu Dec 18 23:11:56 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 17:11:56 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Alternate Endings (was: Hows Harry going to learn...) References: Message-ID: <023701c3c5bc$56081680$89570043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 87291 > With the Dark Lord vanquished and reduce to Vapor, once again, the > wizard world is safe. But evil never truly goes away. Sadam (or insert > evil dictator of choice) has fallen but another fanatical dictator > waits in the wings to take his place. > > Good men and women must stay constantly vigilant lest evil creep in > and take over while we are not looking. Complacence is the doorstep > upon which evil treads. (I'm trying to be profound; is it working?) > > So, the 'right back where we started from' ending, I think is a very > valid and possible ending for the story. The future holds a new Dark > Lord and a new young hero, and the never ending struggle between good > and evil continues. > This idea, in this (long and IMO very interesting) post gave me a thought: What if Young Tom Riddle had been "intended" (by God, the gods, fate, whatever controls these things) to be the "new young hero" who vanquished the evil Grindelwald? But, instead, he embraced the darkness and it fell to Dumbledore to do the job, and we got stuck with Voldemort. I mean, Young Tom had choices to make, and apparently, at some point or points, he made the wrong choices. Like Frodo might have if he'd managed to claim the Ring and make it stick, or the other Great and Wise who had chances to take it off him (I just got back from a back-to-back-to-back showing of all three movies)---IOW, Sauron is still defeated, but a new Dark Lord or Lady will, eventually arise. For that matter---we know so little of Grindelwald? Could he, had he taken a different path, been not a Dark Overlord/evil wizard, but a hero of the good guys? What if Tom Riddle _hadn't_ been so embittered by his abandonment, or had come to accept and forgive his father's actions? (Like my theory that _maybe_ TR's mom wasn't all that nice, and TR, Sr. found out somehow that she had Plans for him and his family's money, plans that involved them taking a _loooong_ dirt-nap...in a situation like that, leaving one's wife _now_ strikes me as an excellent idea!) As heir of Slytherin, he can control the monster in the Chamber of Secrets---but in this alternate-history, he uses it for good, turning it loose on Grindelwald's followers. Even without that, he's apparently an extremely skilled and talented wizard. So...can we see Young Tom Riddle as a "failed Harry?" Or is Harry going to be "Tom Riddle, as he was meant to be?" From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 19 00:04:49 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 00:04:49 -0000 Subject: Luna Lovegood can see the future. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87292 vmonte wrote: > > Also, I think Luna may be able to see the future. I don't think she > > has completely mastered it, but the idea makes sense if you think > > about some of her behavior in OOTP. > > Alice responded: > I think this is a really good idea. I'm not sure it's right, but hey > I'd love it to be. > > If it were, my take on it would be as follows: > She is not a Seer in the way Trelawney is, spitting out > predicitions/prophecies at random moments and not remembering having > ever said them afterwards. Maybe there's another form to Seeing. Like > old Snape said about mind-reading: it's not as simple as that, you > can't just open the mind like a book and start reading. So maybe you > can't just open the future like a book and start reading. But Luna may > have the gift to FEEL certain things, have notions about what TYPE of > thing is going to happen, not always but more often than not, and > definitely more often than Hag Trelawney. These feelings may not be > easy to interpret, even to herself. So she doesn't talk. > > Love, Alice > ---desperate for a Heliopath (spirits of flame, weren't they, or does > my memory betray me?) to appear... they sound like fun & danger Carol: I think Alice is on the right track: Luna isn't exactly a seer, but her intuition is strong and usually correct, a balance to Hermione as a number of people have said. It would be really funny if Luna were right about heliopaths (or crumple-horned snorkacks) and they showed up in Hagrid's Care of Magical Creatures class. Imagine Hermione's reaction! Actually, given her native skepticism and Muggle upbringing, I'm surprised that she didn't start out disbelieving in dragons and unicorns. Maybe the difference is that the latter two are staples of mythology and/or folklore and therefore easier to believe in--or she read about them in her textbooks the summer before attending Hogwarts. How does she *know* there's no such thing as a heliopath? Just the fact that she's never seen one doesn't mean they don't exist. For all we know, the WW may think there's no such thing as a microbe or a molecule because they don't study biology or physics at Hogwarts. (Maybe a smattering of science should be included in Muggle Studies. We know a thing or two that the wizards don't.) Carol, who can't help protesting the phrase "old Snape." Even in OoP he's only 36 or 37, in his "youth" by Dumbledore's standards ;-) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 19 00:12:43 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 00:12:43 -0000 Subject: dumbledore, chocolate frogs and portrait hopping (book five info included) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87293 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arealin" wrote: > Hope I'm not repeating anyone's earlier email, I did do a search to > make sure I'm not. > > I recently bought the Unofficial Guide To the HP Mysteries. Don't > ask me why, I guess I'm either that crazy or that obsessed. It did > make me think of a couple of things, here's one of them. > > In book five we find out that portrayed people are able to hop > between their portraits. > > 1. Can people move between their photographs as well? > 2. Does it only work for portraits of dead people or can portraits > of people who are alive do it as well? > 3. If answer to 2 is yes, does that mean someone like Dumbledore can > enter almost any wizarding family's house through his Chocolate Frog > Card? > > If all that was possible, that's an even more convenient means of > communication than owl post or floo fireplaces, isn't it? You just > hand out chocolate frog cards of a certain person to everyone you > need to contact quickly and voila! Carol: IIRC, Percy walks out of the family photograph in OoP. Earlier, I think in PoA, his girlfriend Penelope hides outside her frame after Ron spills something on her photograph and blotches her nose. So presumably they could move to another photograph if they chose. Don't know where else they could go. Re living people moving out of portraits and chocolate frog cards--that wouldn't be the same as the actual Dumbledore being present--more like a clone who behaves as Dumbledore would but isn't the real Dumbledore. Which makes me think of a fitting reward for Harry at the end of Book 7--his own chocolate frog card! Carol, who wishes she had a chocolate frog card for Snape From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 19 00:29:57 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 00:29:57 -0000 Subject: Are the gum wrappers a puzzle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87294 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "corinthum" wrote: > Chiara wrote: > > > > And then suddenly, the puzzle is complete and there lies the > solution to the > > Longbottoms madness. > > Just a quick comment regarding the message-in-the-gum-wrappers > theories. I don't follow most of these threads, but I'm curious as > to why most people think the message being sent would be regarding > the Longbottoms themselves. > > I think it much more likely that the Longbottoms really are insane, > due to the torture. However, perhaps they learned something just > prior to or during that unpleasant experience. Wouldn't it be much > more interesting and heroic if they were trying to send this vital > information to those who could use it? Much more heroic, in my > opinion. > > Just an incomplete thought; perhaps I'll think more and expand on it > later. > > -Corinth Carol: I like that thought and I do think that Neville's mother is trying to communicate with him in some way related to the past, not the present. (His father appears to be too far gone to reach out to him in any way.) We need to remember that these people were hit with prolonged and probably multiple Cruciatus curses from four powerful wizards at once. You can get up and go on after being Crucio'd once by one wizard, as Harry was, but the Longbottoms were tortured to the point that their only refuge was insanity. If a botched or overly strong memory curse can permanently ruin Bertha Jorkins' brain (or give Gilderoy Lockhart amnesia to the extent that he has to learn "linked up writing" again like an eight-year-old), think what multiple Cruciatus curses could do. I don't see any hope for the Longbottoms' full recovery, but it would be very touching if Neville's mother could recognize her son and speak his name. Carol, who has no idea what the gum wrappers mean but is glad Neville doesn't throw them away From vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz Fri Dec 19 01:12:51 2003 From: vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vinnia?=) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 14:12:51 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Portraits--Can Sirius come back? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031219011251.40693.qmail@web41201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87295 greatlit2003 wrote: I was wondering why more wizards don't create portraits of themselves. Why don't Sirius (and Lily and James) have portraits so that they can be with Harry? If Phineas Nigellus and Sirius's mum can still interact with others after death, why can't Sirius do the same? Vinnia: You know, I was thinking about this the other day. I also wonder why each person can only have one portrait image. I mean, with Phineas (and Dylis Derwent), they have 2 frames, but only one image, going back and forth. Is it possible that wizarding portraits are not painted by artist? I mean, those images are actually the wizards themselves in another dimension? So, when they think that their mission in this world is finished, they just jump into the frame, and with some enchantment live as a portrait. So, there wouldn't be any portrait of Sirius/James/Lily, because they died before they jumped into their frames. Any thought? Vinnia http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Personals New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time. From derek at rhinobunny.com Fri Dec 19 01:32:43 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 17:32:43 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Are the gum wrappers a puzzle? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031218171244.01f9d4d0@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87296 Carol wrote: >I don't see any hope for the Longbottoms' >full recovery, but it would be very touching if Neville's mother could >recognize her son and speak his name. Derek: A thought just hit me... She *does* recognize him, at least on some level! Dumbledore told Harry that Neville's parents didn't recognize him, but if you think about it, they (or at least Alice) must. After all, she's not giving gum wrappers to everyone else, is she? I guess we don't know for sure, but what we see in the ward certainly gives the impression that she only gives them to Neville, and that she's done so for a long time. So in some way, she's differentiating Neville from other people, and remembering from visit to visit that she needs to give him gum wrappers. - Derek From drednort at alphalink.com.au Fri Dec 19 01:55:05 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 12:55:05 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vauxhall Road again In-Reply-To: References: <3FE07C9D.17041.61D34B@localhost> Message-ID: <3FE2F529.27178.2CAE3D@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 87297 On 18 Dec 2003 at 22:30, Geoff Bannister wrote: > Geoff: > I'm sorry to keep banging on about this matter but I have certain > reservations aboutt he information which Shaun turned up. To justify > my interest, I have stated before that I lived in Wandsworth from > 1949-94 ecept for 1971-73 when I lived in Wimbeldon (3 miles away) > when first married. > My other point is that I have documentary evidence that Wandsworth > Road was so named as early as 1906 is not earlier. I am going to try > to find out when Wandsworth Road railway station was opened - > sometime in the mid-19th century - and whether that was always its > name. I have emailed the central reference library at Wandsworth - > one of the best municipal reference sources in London to ask whether > thay have any information on Wandsworth Road being named Vauxhall > Road. I currently await an answer. Shaun: Cool. You are entitled to have reservations - I do myself, and if you go back to my earlier posts, I believe I said I would welcome people closer to the general area who could do better research than I can. I expressed my own doubts at times. Having said that, I don't really think there can be much dispute that Wandsworth Road was once called Vauxhall Road - I could certainly accept that the name hasn't been used recently - that bit is mostly speculation on my part based on the description of the Vauxhall Baptist Chapel being in Vauxhall Road. But I would be *incredibly* surprised if Wandsworth Road was never named Vauxhall Road - because the source I have on that is *incredibly* detailed. The Survey of London I have consulted consists of at least 30 volumes, typically around 200-250 pages per volume. It was published by the London County Council, who I would hope know London well (-8 And it is unambiguous about Wandsworth Road being known as Vauxhall Road. "Wandsorth Road was sometimes known as Vauxhall Road." (p.37, Volume XXVI) That reference refers to events of 1825 - considerably earlier than the period we're referencing. I think there are two questions here - both when did the name officially change, and when did people stop using it - and that second bit seems to me slightly tricky - because it seems to me a long lived business might continue using a name of a street long after anyone else did. Geoff: > The oddity is that it would be most unusual to have /two/ Vauxhall > Roads from different directions meeting at Vauxhall Cross. Wandsworth > Road comes from the south-west while the present Kennington Lane > comes in from the east. For both to have the same name would be very > confusing. Shaun: Want to make it even more confusing - I have seen an 1859 map of London which names Kennington Road as Vauxhall Road as well! > Geoff: > Being picky, Tom Riddle would have more directly walked straight down > Lansdowne Way (or more accurately up it) crossing South Lambeth Road > and then across Clapham Road into Stockwell Park Road. Binfield Road > would bring him too far south (by a couple of hundred yards) to the > main crossing which would involve more awkward crossings of the roads. Shaun: The map in the 1956 survey (which is incredible - it shows every single *BUILDING* individually - it even has a submap showing every building of the orphanage - as well as a photo of the orphanage) leads me to believe the route I described would have been easier - but it doesn't show crossings. Geoff: > Returning to my main point, as I said a few days ago, the evidence of > the Vauxhall Baptist Church confirming the east end of Kennington > Lane to be Vauxhall Road as late as 1942 strengthens my feel that, > assuming Riddle picked up the book at the shop named on the label, > then oit was along this stretch of road, fairly near for a fit young > person used to walking reasonable distances (as we were in them there > far-off days of yore...). Shaun: I'm still inclined to favour the Kennington Lane area from the Vauxhall Baptist Chapel information myself - but this book is quite unambiguous about Wandsworth Road having been the Vauxhall Road - and Kennington Lane having been either part of the Vauxhall Road (or if you go back even further part of the Vauxhall and Kingston Road). Incidentally the survey does include a short entry on the Vauxhall Baptist Church - definitely between Cottington Street and Opal Street. Geoff: > As an aside, apart from the rather vague Chepstow link I think Shaun > (?) mentioned, I wonder why JKR decided that Tom had to have a book > from Vauxhall Road apart from a desire to irritate those > perfectionists among us who want a large "X marks the spot" on the > map? Shaun: I don't really care if my conjectures are right or wrong - this is fun. Next step is to get the survey for the area where Diagon Alley is, and see if I can squeeze it in somehow (-8. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Dec 19 02:22:07 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 02:22:07 -0000 Subject: Where is LV's lair? (Hide Out) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87298 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jakedjensen" wrote: > JakeJensen: > In book 5 we are offered several glimpses of a strange > curtained room containing LV. When Snape and HP are practicing; > Snape asks HP what "that room" is doing in his head. ...edited... > > LV's curtained room may be located in Malfoy's manor: > > ...edited... > > > Of course, there are a number of other places it could be: > Somewhere in Hogsmeade (The Shrieking Shack? Maybe not...) > Somewhere in Nocturn Alley > Somewhere in Diagon Alley > Somewhere in the Forbidden Forest > Somewhere in Little Whining (althought, I doubt it, too obvious) > Somewhere near Privet Drive > > Ideas? Thoughts? > Jake bboy_mn: I've given this some thought and sadly have not come to a clear conclution. Malfoy Manor has one major problem, I don't think Draco can be trusted with the secret, in addition, I'm not sure Malfoy is in a position to have escaped Death Eaters wandering in and out at all hours of the day. I believe Malfoy Manor is in Whiltshire which is in Western England, just east of Bristol. That would be a country estate, so reasonably secluded, but I still think Draco is the fly in that ointment. I can't see Voldemort living in Draco's house without Draco knowing, and I can't see him knowing without giving up the secret. How about the Riddle Mansion? Well that might work for a while but eventually the town's people are going to start to notice something suspicious: lights on, people moving around, etc.... Especially now that another murder (Frank Bryce) has taken place. Any activity around there would get very suspicious very quickly. So I have my doubts about that place. I seriously doubt that Voldemort is milling about some muggle neighborhood, so Little Whinging, and Privet Drive are out. Hogsmeade? Don't think so. Knockturn Alley? Don't think so. Didn't really seem to be any place to live their. It's mostly a dingy street with some shops. Forbidden Forest? Don't think there are too many comfortable lodgings in the forest. So no. Diagon Alley? Not likely, with Death Eaters roaming about, it would be too easy to spot suspicious activity. So where then? Well, I suspect that the location is somewhat similar to Grimauld Place. The abondon mansion of a dark leaning wizard family, probably in a remote location, and probably very well hidden by anti-muggle protections. Maybe the Crouch Mansion. With the last of the Crouch family blood line dead, it's pretty much abandon. Perhaps one of the house of the Death Eaters who escaped from Azkaban, or one of the DE's who didn't go to prison, but also lives alone. I think we will find out in the next book. I suspect that Lord V. will do some nasty thing like kidnap Hermione in order to draw Harry to him. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Fri Dec 19 02:35:10 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 21:35:10 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Where is LV's lair? (Hide Out) Message-ID: <1e6.15d284c6.2d13bdde@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87299 bboy_mn: > Malfoy Manor has one major problem, I don't think Draco can be trusted > with the secret, in addition, I'm not sure Malfoy is in a position to > have escaped Death Eaters wandering in and out at all hours of the > day. I believe Malfoy Manor is in Whiltshire which is in Western > England, just east of Bristol. That would be a country estate, so > reasonably secluded, but I still think Draco is the fly in that > ointment. I can't see Voldemort living in Draco's house without Draco > knowing, and I can't see him knowing without giving up the secret. Cassie: Of course Draco can't give away the secret (location of Voldies hideout). He's not the secret keeper. I doubt it is in Malfoy Manor as well...but no matter where it is, if Draco knew I don't think he could tell. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kcawte at ntlworld.com Fri Dec 19 11:13:12 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 03:13:12 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Where is LV's lair? (Hide Out) References: Message-ID: <004801c3c621$175bd2e0$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87300 bboy_mn > Malfoy Manor has one major problem, I don't think Draco can be trusted > with the secret, in addition, I'm not sure Malfoy is in a position to > have escaped Death Eaters wandering in and out at all hours of the > day. I believe Malfoy Manor is in Whiltshire which is in Western > England, just east of Bristol. That would be a country estate, so > reasonably secluded, but I still think Draco is the fly in that > ointment. I can't see Voldemort living in Draco's house without Draco > knowing, and I can't see him knowing without giving up the secret. > > > > > K If the access to the part of Malfoy Manor in which the lair was, was apparition only then Draco wouldn't be able to access it *and* wouldn't see people coming and going - so he might well not know. He'd know there were parts of the Manor he couldn't get into but I imagine they'd exist anyway - let's face it if you're Lucius and you have an extensive collection of illegal dark magic items and a son like Draco in the same house you'd have invented some pretty fancy security precautions to stop him getting anywhere near them, otherwise you'd constantly run the risk of Draco finding one, thinking 'hey cool, I can really get Potter with this' and taking it without considering that he and or you are likely to end up in Azkaban. Of course you'd probably also have to put said precautions around the library (a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, especially in the hands of a malicious teenager) and the bar ('hey look alcohol that's older than Dumbledore, let's share it around the Common room. Oh I'm sorry it cost *how* much?') K From derek at rhinobunny.com Fri Dec 19 03:33:58 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 19:33:58 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Where is LV's lair? (Hide Out) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031218192133.020902a0@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87301 Steve wrote: >So where then? Well, I suspect that the location is somewhat similar >to Grimauld Place. The abondon mansion of a dark leaning wizard >family, probably in a remote location, and probably very well hidden >by anti-muggle protections. Derek: Or, to make it more ironic and symmetrical to Grimauld Place (a dark wizard family home being used for a light-aligned secret order), perhaps LV's dark-aligned secret order is using the home of a *light* aligned family. Wouldn't it be a nasty twist if they were using the Potter ancestral home? Maybe that's where we'll learn more about James' side of Harry's ancestry... - Derek From beelissa at nycap.rr.com Fri Dec 19 04:02:43 2003 From: beelissa at nycap.rr.com (Melissa Worcester) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 23:02:43 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Where is LV's lair? References: Message-ID: <007a01c3c5e4$f48db990$efd54142@CPQ21816182602> No: HPFGUIDX 87302 Would it be too obvious for V. to be hiding out at the Lestranges? Rabastan and Rodolphus are brothers, maybe there's an ancestral home in that family, and Bella seems to be a favorite. I bet we learn more about this family in Book 6. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 19 04:39:41 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 04:39:41 -0000 Subject: Are the gum wrappers a puzzle? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031218171244.01f9d4d0@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87303 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Derek Hiemforth wrote: > Carol wrote: > >I don't see any hope for the Longbottoms' > >full recovery, but it would be very touching if Neville's mother could > >recognize her son and speak his name. > > Derek: > A thought just hit me... > > She *does* recognize him, at least on some level! Dumbledore told Harry > that Neville's parents didn't recognize him, but if you think about it, > they (or at least Alice) must. After all, she's not giving gum wrappers > to everyone else, is she? I guess we don't know for sure, but what we see > in the ward certainly gives the impression that she only gives them to > Neville, and that she's done so for a long time. So in some way, she's > differentiating Neville from other people, and remembering from visit to > visit that she needs to give him gum wrappers. > > - Derek Derek, I think you're right that she has some memory of him as a baby and maybe she's also noticed, on some unconscious level, his marked resemblance to herself when she was young or even to her reflection as she is now, though she's changed so much. I agree that she senses a connection with him and that's why I hope she somehow realizes that he's her son and speaks his name. I'll cry for hours if that happens, but I hope it does. Carol From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Dec 18 19:53:27 2003 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 19:53:27 -0000 Subject: Large predictions for last 2 books. -- Percy and SPEW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87304 vmonte wrote: >> Percy is evil and will have something to do with Ron's fall. I've tried to rationalize Percy too much in the past. I now do not think that he is under anyone's curse, nor that he is working under cover. Sometimes there is just one bad seed in the family. << Ali: > I have to disagree on this one. Percy is somewhat of a bad seed, yes, but I don't think he's really evil. He may not agree with his family's views, but to say that Percy will have something to do with the downfall of a member of his own family is carrying the theory out too far. < vmonte: Hi Ali, I think you may be right. Unfortunately, I think the only way he will be able to redeem himself in the end would be to sacrifice himself to save a lead character---perhaps to save his brother Ron. Ali: > While that would be nice, I see SPEW going the ways of Voldie. In other words, I really think SPEW is going to end up being Hermione's first failure at something. There's far too much loyal tradition within the house elf world for Hermione to succeed with SPEW, especially not within 2 years. < vmonte: You make some excellent points. I think you may be right about many of them. I do think however that Ron will have a moment in the spot light at the end of the series. From aldhelm at earthlink.net Thu Dec 18 20:26:15 2003 From: aldhelm at earthlink.net (carin_in_oh) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 20:26:15 -0000 Subject: What Beasts will we see in future books? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87305 In message 87276, Alice signed off saying: "---desperate for a Heliopath (spirits of flame, weren't they, or does my memory betray me?) to appear... they sound like fun & danger" ...which prompts me (Carin) to ask what creature from FBAWTFT that we haven't met yet do you expect or hope (or fear) will appear in the last two books? Me, I'm hoping for a Lethifold! Carin From abbet659 at hotmail.com Thu Dec 18 21:38:56 2003 From: abbet659 at hotmail.com (abbet659 at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 21:38:56 -0000 Subject: Mr Ollivander (was:In bed with Harry Potter) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87306 Sen wrote: > What I'm getting at is, unless it comes out later that > Voldywhat's wand is *not* his original wand from his > Hogwarts days, then Ollivander knows Riddle = Voldywho > (which I am under the assumption is not a well known > fact!). It just seems fishy to me. It seems to me like > Ollivander is possibly on Voldythingie's side because of > the fact that he's keeping that bit of information a > secret. Unless of course it's like the whole Doctor/patient > confidentiality sort of thing, but I doubt it. My only guess is that Dumbledore told Ollivander that Riddle = Voldy and that it was important that he know at once who the second wand went to. This brings up another question: Seems that most people know Voldemort went to Hogwarts and that he was in Slytherin. How would people know this if hardly anyone knew Riddle = Voldy. Abbet From abbet659 at hotmail.com Fri Dec 19 00:46:54 2003 From: abbet659 at hotmail.com (abbet659 at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 00:46:54 -0000 Subject: Chapter 33 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87307 Two small questions about this chapter 1. "Harry's?eyes?met?Ron's.?He?knew?Ron?was?thinking?exactly?what?he ?was:?if?he?could?have?chosen?any?members?of?the?DA,?in?addition?to? himself,?Ron?and?Hermione,?to?join?him?in?the?attempt?to?rescue? Sirius,?he?would?not?have?picked?Ginny,?Neville?or?Luna." So who would they pick from the DA if they needed some help. 2. I'm pretty sure Hagrid said that he was saving Thestrals for their OWL year. I take that means that fourth years wouldn't have gone over them, so why do Ginny and Luna know so much and act like they had gone over them with Hagrid. Abbet From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Fri Dec 19 04:27:39 2003 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (Najwa Issa) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 23:27:39 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: Sirius and the mirror References: <1071788767.7799.79290.m1@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <3FE27E3B.000001.01104@DF39SM21> No: HPFGUIDX 87308 Rebecca M wrote: > I think the plot development of the next couple of books will > hinge on Harry getting pulled deep into the issues around the > prophecy and his own guilt in Sirius' and, in some ways, even > his parents' deaths -- I think he will be even darker and > angrier than in book 5 and his anger may lead him away from > Dumbledore and to inadvertently aiding V. I hope that Harry won't stay so depressed and angry, though I am positively sure he will be to a certain degree, but I feel that the mirror has to be a way to bring Harry out of the rut so he can focus better on what he must do now. Plus, I hated watching fifteen year old Harry and his anger and depression, it reminds me too much of myself at that age :( I think he needs to move on and Luna's advice about the dead being just behind the veil is something to look forward to for Harry as well as the rest of us. Hopefully this will be the means of Harry contacting Sirius somehow and making him feel a little bit better. "Najwa Issa" From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Dec 18 20:43:19 2003 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 20:43:19 -0000 Subject: Large predictions for last 2 books. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87309 Ali here: While that would be nice, I see SPEW going the ways of Voldie. In other words, I really think SPEW is going to end up being Hermione's first failure at something. There's far too much loyal tradition within the house elf world for Hermione to succeed with SPEW, especially not within 2 years. I don't really think the idea of Ron's army works - just too out there for me). vmonte: Hi, Ali. I think you are right about s.p.e.w. The only way the children would be able to get them to mobilize for the good side would be to appeal to them on a practical level. If the Hogwarts school is destroyed in an attack by Voldemort's gang, the elves will be out of a job. --- Although the elves enjoy (or are used to subservience) I am sure they would prefer a kind master like Dumboldore rather than nasty wizards like Malfoy. Here is my Ron's army theory: I understand where you're coming from when you mention Ron. I feel the same way about him. Ron has been the most difficult for me to figure out. Everyone of the characters in the book has a strength particular to themselves. For a long time I saw Ron as just being the sidekick to Hermione and Harry. Then I realized that Rowling lets us know right away in book one what Ron's strengths are. He is a great strategist!!! THE CHESS GAME!!! (In fact, Dumbledore is so impressed with Ron's game at the end of the 1st book that he awards points to Gryffindor house). I believe that the game is symbolic for the war that is to come (other fans have mentioned the chess game as well). Ron is going to be the leader for the army of children who will ultimately be responsible for beating Voldemort's gang. The children will be the heroes, not the adults! Ron will gain more confidence as the books progress. Ron will show how brave he truly is. He may have to sacrifice himself to save Harry. From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Dec 19 08:15:55 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 08:15:55 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall Road again In-Reply-To: <3FE2F529.27178.2CAE3D@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87310 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > Shaun: > I'm still inclined to favour the Kennington Lane area from the > Vauxhall Baptist Chapel information myself - but this book is quite > unambiguous about Wandsworth Road having been the Vauxhall Road - > and Kennington Lane having been either part of the Vauxhall Road > (or if you go back even further part of the Vauxhall and Kingston > Road). > > Incidentally the survey does include a short entry on the Vauxhall > Baptist Church - definitely between Cottington Street and Opal > Street. Geoff: This is ringing alarm bells for me! We have agreed that Vauxhall Baptist Church is on what was in 1942 Vauxhall Road between Cottington Street and Opal Street. This about a mile ENE of Vauxhall Cross and thus nowhere near the city end of Wandsworth Road. I am beginning to wonder if there was /another/ Wandsworth Road on the east side of Vauxhall which may have become Vauxhall Road and then Kennington Lane. A further thought, how clear is the print on your documents - it couldn't be Walworth Road could it? Walworth is an area south of the Elephant and Castle and the current road of that name between the two. The beginning of the road at the Elephant is not more than a quarter of a mile from the end of Kennington Lane aka Vauxhall Road aka (possibly) Voldermort Newsagent Road. I think Riddle has been casting Befuddlement Charms on us...... :-) Geoff From derek at rhinobunny.com Fri Dec 19 08:38:50 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 00:38:50 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 33 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031219002830.025eb7c0@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87311 Abbet wrote: >1. "Harry's eyes met Ron's. He knew Ron was thinking exactly what he > was: if he could have chosen any members of the DA, in addition to >himself, Ron and Hermione, to join him in the attempt to rescue >Sirius, he would not have picked Ginny, Neville or Luna." > So who would they pick from the DA if they needed some help. Derek: I think they would have picked Fred and George, who (despite their clowning) are obviously brave, loyal, and talented wizards. I'm not sure who'd they'd have picked as a third. Maybe Angelina Johnson or Lee Jordan. >Abbet: >2. I'm pretty sure Hagrid said that he was saving Thestrals for >their OWL year. I take that means that fourth years wouldn't have >gone over them, so why do Ginny and Luna know so much and act like >they had gone over them with Hagrid. Derek: Hagrid told the trio that he was saving Thestrals for *their* OWL year. That doesn't necessarily mean that he wasn't also covering them with his other classes at the same time. :-) - Derek From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Fri Dec 19 08:50:42 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 08:50:42 -0000 Subject: Where is LV's lair? (Hide Out) In-Reply-To: <1e6.15d284c6.2d13bdde@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87312 > Cassie: > > Of course Draco can't give away the secret (location of Voldies > hideout). He's not the secret keeper. I doubt it is in Malfoy > Manor as well...but no matter where it is, if Draco knew I don't > think he could tell. > > ~Cassie~ > I don't really think Draco would be trusted with information that was that sensitive, either; He gives away information too easily. I don't particularly think, despite his posturing, that his father has involved him in much involving the DE's in any case, as Draco is not able to see Thestrals, and thus, has not seen death. How many meetings of Death Eaters won't involve seeing death? --Arcum From drednort at alphalink.com.au Fri Dec 19 08:49:16 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 19:49:16 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vauxhall Road again In-Reply-To: References: <3FE2F529.27178.2CAE3D@localhost> Message-ID: <3FE3563C.8280.B97BA5@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 87313 On 19 Dec 2003 at 8:15, Geoff Bannister wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" > wrote: > > > > Shaun: > > I'm still inclined to favour the Kennington Lane area from the > > Vauxhall Baptist Chapel information myself - but this book is quite > > unambiguous about Wandsworth Road having been the Vauxhall Road - > > and Kennington Lane having been either part of the Vauxhall Road > > (or if you go back even further part of the Vauxhall and Kingston > > Road). > > > > Incidentally the survey does include a short entry on the Vauxhall > > Baptist Church - definitely between Cottington Street and Opal > > Street. > > Geoff: > This is ringing alarm bells for me! We have agreed that Vauxhall > Baptist Church is on what was in 1942 Vauxhall Road between > Cottington Street and Opal Street. This about a mile ENE of Vauxhall > Cross and thus nowhere near the city end of Wandsworth Road. > > I am beginning to wonder if there was /another/ Wandsworth Road on > the east side of Vauxhall which may have become Vauxhall Road and > then Kennington Lane. > > A further thought, how clear is the print on your documents - it > couldn't be Walworth Road could it? Walworth is an area south of the > Elephant and Castle and the current road of that name between the > two. The beginning of the road at the Elephant is not more than a > quarter of a mile from the end of Kennington Lane aka Vauxhall Road > aka (possibly) Voldermort Newsagent Road. It is absolutely clear - if you'd like I could scan part of the page as a gif file so you can see the reference for yourself - I'm not sure I can scan the whole page with my scanner - I might be able to, not sure. If it was only one reference, it could be a simple error - but the index also includes the following: "Vauxhall Road, see Wandsworth Road." Reading further, the historical situation *MAY BE* as follows. This information is rather confusing. My most convenient map of London is from 1964 (it's the only street map of London I have in book form, so when I refer to modern names, I'm using the names from that book - a quick check seems to indicate its still accurate most of the time, but I can't be certain some names haven't changed). I'm also be going to place an (m) or (h) in brackets after each name - (m) means I'm talking about the modern name, (h) means I'm talking about an historical name. OK c.1717, we have a road known as Kingston Road(h). Part of this is what is now known as Wandsworth Road(m) [I guess it also included roads on the line Lavender Hill(m), St Johns Hill(m), Wandsworth High East Hill(m), West Hill(m), Kingston Road(m), Roehampton Vale(m), Kingston Vale(m), Kingston Hill(m), down to the London Road(m)]. At *some point*, this Kingston Road(h) became the Vauxhall and Kingston Road(h). I have no idea *when* this occurred. However, the Survey of London indicates that both Kennington Road(m) and Kenninton Lane(m) were also known as Kingston Road(h) at some point in their past - [hopefully at different points!]. In 1825, we have a *definite* instance of Wandsworth Road(m) being referred to as Vauxhall Road(h). We also have the reference on the Vauxhall Society website to the Chapel being in Vauxhall Road(h) in 1942. >From the survey, I am *entirely convinced* that what is now Wandsworth Road(m) and Kennington Lane(m) were part of a *single* road - that was *DEFINITELY* referred to as the 'Vauxhall and Kingston Road(h)'. >From the survey, I am convinced that Wandsworth Road(m) was, for at least a time known as Vauxhall Road(h). This suggests to me, quite strongly, the real possibility that the name 'Vauxhall and Kingston Road'(h) was at some point abbreviated to Vauxhall Road(h). And that would yield a situation where both Wandsworth Road(m) and Kennington Lane(m) were known as Vauxhall Road(h). This would not have been a matter of two separate Vauxhall Roads meeting at Vauxhall Cross - rather it would have been a situation of both being viewed as part of a single road, and thus sharing a single name. Now - given your knowledge, of the area, I would *surmise* that the practice of referring to Wandsworth Road(m) as Vauxhall Road(h) had lapsed by the start of the twentieth century - but perhaps the Kennington Lane section, might still have been under that name at least unofficially - otherwise I can't resolve the information on the Baptist Church - as I think you pointed out, it seems unlikely a local historical society would make such an elementary mistake as misnaming a road. The Baptist Chapel was built in 1863 and may have acquired its 'Vauxhall Road' address then, perhaps... > I think Riddle has been casting Befuddlement Charms on us...... :-) It's working - I'm beginning to think that we'd be hardpressed to find a single road in the area that couldn't have been called Vauxhall Road! Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From drednort at alphalink.com.au Fri Dec 19 09:03:03 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 20:03:03 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vauxhall Road again In-Reply-To: <3FE3563C.8280.B97BA5@localhost> References: Message-ID: <3FE35977.15205.C619DF@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 87314 On 19 Dec 2003 at 19:49, Shaun Hately wrote: > On 19 Dec 2003 at 8:15, Geoff Bannister wrote: > > Geoff: > > A further thought, how clear is the print on your documents - > > it > > couldn't be Walworth Road could it? Walworth is an area south of the > > Elephant and Castle and the current road of that name between the > > two. The beginning of the road at the Elephant is not more than a > > quarter of a mile from the end of Kennington Lane aka Vauxhall Road > > aka (possibly) Voldermort Newsagent Road. > > It is absolutely clear - if you'd like I could scan part of the > page as a gif file so you can see the reference for yourself - I'm > not sure I can scan the whole page with my scanner - I might be > able to, not sure. To save time, I've just done this - scanning the whole page isn't an option (I'd have to manhandle the book into a small space and it's not in the best condition), but I've scanned the relevant paragraph. http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/vauxwand.gif Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From quigonginger at yahoo.com Fri Dec 19 10:57:53 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:57:53 -0000 Subject: FILK: My Heart's Desire Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87315 My Heart's Desire. To the tune of The Sound of Silence by Simon and Garfunkel. I realized I had filked no scene from PS/SS. I had to remedy that. Dedicated to our wonderful Mods, for doing all they do and putting up with all with up they put. My Heart's Desire Harry: Hello, Mirror Erised Once more you've lured me out of bed. Through Filch-free hallways I am creeping. At night whilst I ought be sleeping. For the vision of my family gathered 'round: I have found. It is My Heart's Desire. In empty room I sit alone. Variant reflections shown. Seeing almond eyes bright green. My mother's, in the mirror I have seen. And the jet black hair that adorns my father's crown Won't lay down. Which is My Heart's Desire. And in the lumos-light I saw A dozen like my ma and pa. People like me who were knobby-kneed. People whom I eyed with deepest greed. People who had lived and died so long ago. I did not know They were My Heart's Desire. "Ron!" said I "Come, you must see Of this mirror's mystery." But all Ron saw when he looked up Was him holding a Quiddich Cup. And a badge like brother Bill once wore- For Head Boy Was his Heart's Desire. How I wished I could have stayed, But my plans were soon waylaid. Dumbledore did soon admonish With advise that did astonish, Said, "The mirror, it shows neither knowledge nor truth, but it reads our minds, And there it finds, Whatever is our Heart's Desire. Ginger, who has nothing to add as a post script From quigonginger at yahoo.com Fri Dec 19 11:12:19 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:12:19 -0000 Subject: Where is LV's lair? (Hide Out) with an apparation question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87316 In wondering where LV's lair might be, Steve (bboy_mn) pointed out: > Malfoy Manor has one major problem, I don't think Draco can be trusted > with the secret, in addition, I'm not sure Malfoy is in a position to > have escaped Death Eaters wandering in and out at all hours of the > day. I (Ginger) snipped the rest to reply: I agree totally with your concerns about Draco. Mr Crabbe and Mr Goyle wouldn't draw much attention by visiting, but if Bella or even LV himself showed up, the little twit would probably faint dead away, and then brag to the Slyths about how they had had tea. Making sure Harry could hear, of course. I have to wonder about the DE's wandering in and out, though. Which brings me to my question: What limitations are there on apparating? We know one has to be liscenced (or ought to be), but are there any limitations as far as apparating into a house? The only one we see is Arthur, but he apparated into his own home. At 12 Gimmauld, people come to the door. I imagine this is just good manners, and that people also have security charms in place to prevent uninvited visitors. What I wonder is whether or not people can just apparate into another person's house, assuming they have permission. This would solve the problem with the DE's coming and going. They could just apparate into a certain room set aside as LV's office (or den or library, or whatever). It also would have been a nice way for Sirius to have gotten out once in a while. He could have visited the homes of Order members for tea every now and then, and by apparating into their living rooms, no one would have been the wiser. Ginger, who thought much on Sirius tonight From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Fri Dec 19 13:37:58 2003 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 13:37:58 -0000 Subject: Mr Ollivander (was:In bed with Harry Potter) In-Reply-To: <20031217234337.81694.qmail@web40206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87317 siriusxisxmyxlover wrote: > Not even McGonnagal knows, and Dumbledore seems > to really trust her, she is Deputy Headmistress. > > In COS Dumbledore and McGonnagal bring Colin Creevy > into the Hospital Wing after he is petrified and > McGonnagal says, "Who?" and Dumbledore says, "the > question is not who but how." (Not exact, not books > avalible). > Well, Dumbledore knew who (Voldemort) but obviously > McGonnagal didn't, signifying she did not know that > Voldemort was once Tom Riddle. McGonagal may not have known that Riddle was behind opening the CoS, however that doesn't mean she doesn't know Riddle is Voldemort. I think McGonagal does know about Tom Riddle being Voldemort. She's Deputy Headmistress and a member of the order. He has to keep her informed so that she can protect the students especially Harry. I just don't see him keeping this information from her. Yolanda From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Dec 19 16:14:23 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 16:14:23 -0000 Subject: Where is LV's lair? (Hide Out) ...Apparation Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87318 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: > In wondering where LV's lair might be, Steve (bboy_mn) pointed out: > > > Malfoy Manor has one major problem, I don't think Draco can be > > trusted with the secret, ... > > I (Ginger) snipped the rest to reply: > > ... Which brings me to my question: What limitations are there on > apparating? ... one has to be liscenced ..., but are there any > limitations as far as apparating into a house? ... Arthur... > apparated into his own home. At 12 Gimmauld, people come to the > door. > > I imagine this is just good manners, and that people also have > security charms in place to prevent uninvited visitors. What I > wonder is whether or not people can just apparate into another > person's house, assuming they have permission. > > ...edited... > > Ginger bboy_mn: I agree that it is just common courtesy and good manners not to apparate directly into someone's house. You would no more do that than you would walking to someone's home with out knocking and being invited to enter. I suspect some larger homes may have an entryway into which people can apparate unseen, then knock on the door and wait to be invited. In my fan fic world, people who don't know Harry and Ron well, apparate into the long front hallway and knock on the door, people who do know them well, apparate on to the balcony at the back of their house, those who are their closest friends, apparate directly into their seldom used living room and call out for them, then wait for an reply inviting them in. Just an illustration. However, Grimauld Place and Voldemort's headquarters are another matter. Grimauld Place started out with very high paranoid security which I'm sure Dumbledore re-enforced. So, logically it would have anti-apparation spell placed on it. As logically would Voldemort's HQ. However, there could be some reasonable allowance for those to whom the secret location has been reveal to apparate into the back garden or something of a similar nature. The Malfoy house is referred to as a 'Manor' which implies some degree of estate. That is, very large lawn and gardens which might simplify things. But regardless of the apparation accomodations, I still see Draco's presents as mucking things up a bit. As others have pointed out, Draco could never resist bragging, and he would certainly love to flaunt his involvement in front of Harry. Despite being a reasonably large mansion, Grimauld Place doesn't seem to have anything resembling a garden (lawn/yard). It might have been nice if Sirius could have sunned himself in the back garden or on the balcony. A breath of fresh air might have done him some good. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Dec 19 16:19:38 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 16:19:38 +0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat Message-ID: <244F771D-323F-11D8-99E3-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87319 Interesting artifact, that Sorting Hat. It turns up in a post occasionally, usually as a source of quotes or explication, but no-one so far as I can recall has ever questioned the veracity of the words attributed to it. But, as you may have guessed, I've a very suspicious nature and I have a theory that it may have been got at. OK, what are the characteristics of the members of the various Houses at Hogwarts? Gryffindor - Brave, courageous Slytherin - Ambitious, and not overly scrupulous about achieving their ambitions Ravenclaw - clever, clever, clever Hufflepuffs - loyal and apparently not too bright; could even be the remedial class By my reckoning Hermione should be in Ravenclaw and I'm not the only one. She's questioned in canon about why she's not in Ravenclaw, but it all gets glossed over with a throw-away remark. (Is there such a thing from JKR?). She's obviously one of the star pupils; so why is she in Gryffindor? Neville is a Hufflepuff to the bone; poor scholar, not naturally adventurous, basically good and modest. And he sticks with his friends. Harry would be in Slytherin if the Hat had had its way, and why didn't the Hat have it's way? Is it in the habit of taking seriously the uninformed wishes of eleven year olds? Hardly likely; that'd be a recipe for chaos. The only typical Gryffindor of the four friends is Ron - a bit rash, getting into scrapes at home as well as at school, but willing to stick with Harry in his escapades even when he has severe misgivings or even fear (remember Aragog and his offspring?). What better definition of bravery is there? Remember the sorting in PS/SS? Long pause with Harry and Neville before allocation, none or very little with Ron or Hermione. I reckon the sorting was fixed. Either the Hat, or more likely Dumbledore, wanted all four of them together in the same House - and it had to be Gryffindor; it's the only House who's attributes are flexible enough to accept all of them without questions being asked. Dumbledore (or the Hat) was planning ahead. The four of them form a little gang that is, in effect, all four Houses in one. A combining, a cooperation, just as the Hat advises in OoP. And so far it seems to have worked as an alliance against the baddies. A more interesting question is, has it been tried before? In the previous generation that grew up during the first rise of Voldemort? A reading of the characters and their attitudes might give us: James - Gryffindor. Up for anything; rash; needed reining in. Sirius - Slytherin. Brought up as a Black. Say no more. Remus - Ravenclaw. Clever enough to become Professor Lupin. Peter - Hufflepuff. The slow one. Always lagging behind the others. The closeness of their friendship makes one suspect that they were all in the same House. It's intriguing that confirmation is so hard to find - why? But if they were all in the same House the alliance didn't survive into adulthood. It all fell apart with betrayal and rash actions. Is history in the process of repeating itself? Is this a portend of things to come? Kneasy From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Dec 19 17:36:43 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 17:36:43 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall Road again In-Reply-To: <3FE3563C.8280.B97BA5@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87320 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: Shaun: > Now - given your knowledge, of the area, I would *surmise* that the > practice of referring to Wandsworth Road(m) as Vauxhall Road(h) had > lapsed by the start of the twentieth century - but perhaps the > Kennington Lane section, might still have been under that name at > least unofficially - otherwise I can't resolve the information on > the Baptist Church - as I think you pointed out, it seems unlikely > a local historical society would make such an elementary mistake as > misnaming a road. > > The Baptist Chapel was built in 1863 and may have acquired its > 'Vauxhall Road' address then, perhaps... > > > I think Riddle has been casting Befuddlement Charms on us...... :- ) > > It's working - I'm beginning to think that we'd be hardpressed to > find a single road in the area that couldn't have been called > Vauxhall Road! Geoff: I think we are both right because we are working in different time frames. You are dealing with mid-19th century or earlier. Because I am trying to deal with the Tom Riddle of 1942, I am using a time frame from probably mid-19th century to the present. As I said previously, Wandsworth Road was known by that name at least as early as 1906 because, when the LCC electrified the tramways and completed the "top road" route in that year, Wandsworth Road is mentioned in the descriptions. I also think it is much earlier than that because, when the London Brighton & South Coast Railway built its line out of Victoria, I do not think that the station ever had a name other than Wandsworth Road; I am trying to check that when I get a moment. It is very unlikely that anyone would therefore refer to Wandsworth Road as Vauxhall Road after the best part of a century. In the immediate area where I lived in London, the road from Wandsworth to Tooting had originally changed names about two thirds of the way along but, in the 1930s, the whole road came under one name. When I came to live here in 1949, a mere 15 years or so after the change, /no one/ ever used the old name in conversation. The situation at Vauxhall Cross was odd. For a road carrying the name of, say, point X to reach that place and then continue on beyond still carrying the name of point X is most unusual. Looking at the information which we have garnered, I still hold to the view that Tom Riddle bought the confounded diary in the Vauxhall Road of 1942, i.e. the section between the Kennington Road/Kennington Lane crossing and Newington Butts on the approach to the Elephant. Getting to and from the orphanage would not be too difficult; it was an almost straight walk along Kennington Park Road continuing into Clapham Road. We were all used to walking reasonable distances in those days (I was not averse to walking two and a half miles to school as a change from the bus sometimes). If he had a little money, two stops on the Northern Line or, at that period of time, a large selection of tram or bus routes. Going back briefly to the Orphanage, there is a map available on: www.vauxhallsociety.org.uk/orphanage.html I realise on a second view that the main entrance was in fact in Clapham Road. However, I still believe that if Tom Riddle was coming up from Wandsworth Road (which in the light of evidence I doubt)he would still continue stright up Lansdowne Way because it brings him close to the entrance that using Binfield Road. Phew. This Riddle guy doesn't half create a lot of hassle! From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 20 01:42:38 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 17:42:38 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Sorting Hat References: <244F771D-323F-11D8-99E3-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: <002001c3c69a$8dba0eb0$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87321 *sigh* I could save myself a lot of effort you know if I just changed my sig to "Kneasy I disagree with everything you say" ;) Because I do seem to spend a lot of time doing that - and here we go again. I guess I should for the sake of clarity start with the fact that I consider myself a Slytherin (although my ambition does have limits - I don't want to rule the world, people try and kill you if you do that, I want to be the power behind the throne, telling the target uh I mean leader what to do ) Kneasy > Interesting artifact, that Sorting Hat. > It turns up in a post occasionally, usually as a source of quotes or > explication, but no-one so far as I can recall has ever questioned the > veracity of the words attributed to it. > K Well I guess it depends how sentient it is as to whether or not it has the ability to lie (or I guess the ability to tell the truth since it could have been 'programmed' to lie through its metaphorical teeth). I've always assumed that it has enough intelligence to try and interpret the original wishes of the founders as well as it can, but no more than that - however after OoP I'm beginning to wonder. Kneasy > But, as you may have guessed, I've a very suspicious nature and I > have a theory that it may have been got at. > K You? Suspicious and cynical? Wow, I mean I'm stunned, I'd never have guessed ;) Kneasy > OK, what are the characteristics of the members of the various Houses > at Hogwarts? > > Gryffindor - Brave, courageous > > Slytherin - Ambitious, and not overly scrupulous about achieving their > ambitions > > Ravenclaw - clever, clever, clever > > Hufflepuffs - loyal and apparently not too bright; could even be the > remedial class > K OK I have a problem with some of your definitions. Gryffindor - brave, courageous. Yes I agree with this - although I wish some people would realise that you can be a risk-taking bad to the bone wizard and still qualify for Gryffindor under this definition. Slytherin - Ambitios, cunning, and I'm not sure there shouldn't be some element of loyalty here, the hat does say. "perhaps in Slytherin you'll find your real frineds". Also let's not forget that Salazar wanted it to be a house of purebloods even if the hat doesn't *always* follow that. Ravenclaw - intelligent and studious. Hufflepuffs - loyal and hardworking. I dislike this assumption that Hufflepuffs are stupid. Neither of the qualities that Puffs are associated with imply a basic lack of intelligence. If the dumb kids ended up in Hufflepuff Draco would be missing a couple of bodyguards - actually if I were him I'd be hoping that my comments about loyalty do apply because I don't think they're bright enough to be cunning and if they're not loyal either he could be in trouble. Kneasy > By my reckoning Hermione should be in Ravenclaw and I'm not the only > one. She's questioned in canon about why she's not in Ravenclaw, but > it all gets glossed over with a throw-away remark. (Is there such a > thing from JKR?). She's obviously one of the star pupils; so why is she > in Gryffindor? > Neville is a Hufflepuff to the bone; poor scholar, not naturally > adventurous, basically good and modest. And he sticks with his friends. > Harry would be in Slytherin if the Hat had had its way, and why didn't > the Hat have it's way? Is it in the habit of taking seriously the > uninformed wishes of eleven year olds? Hardly likely; that'd be a > recipe for chaos. > K Well I don't think you can set up four pigeonholes and expect all the kids to fit perfectly into any one of them. Hermione is certaily brave as well as intelligent and Neville is one of the most courageous characters in the books, whereas Harry never struck me as particularly brave (because he never seems scared of anything or to appreciate the danger he's in most of the time, if you don't recognize danger then it's difficult to actually be brave. Doing something you don't know is dangerous isn't brave - stupid possibly - but not brave). And remember the first time we really get to see Neville's bravery he is standing up to the Trio not loyally following them around. Harry on the other hand is *incredibly* loyal - possibly the hat felt he wasn't hardworking enough to qualify for Hufflepuff. Kneasy > A reading of the characters and their attitudes might give us: > > James - Gryffindor. Up for anything; rash; needed reining in. > > Sirius - Slytherin. Brought up as a Black. Say no more. > > Remus - Ravenclaw. Clever enough to become Professor Lupin. > > Peter - Hufflepuff. The slow one. Always lagging behind the others. > K Sometimes I wonder if I'm reading different books to everyone else. James - yeah I think you're spot on with him. Sirius - why Slytherin? the Hat judges (or is supposed to) on the personality of the child not their family background. Sirius has never shown any sign of being cunning at all and doesn't seem terribly ambitious. Brave - yes without doubt. Also intelligent and loyal. Frankly if I had to put Sirius in a house other than Gryffindor I'd make him a Hufflepuff. Loyalty is one of his defining characteristics - he even stresses that he feels Peter should have died rather than betray his friends like he himself would have. Remus - definitely intelligent, I see him sort of as the hermione of the original group, but I think his main characteristic would have to be his fight against the wolf and against people's prejudices. The strength and courage to survive as a werewolf, to survive the death and betrayal of his only close friends, to come back to a place which must be full of memories for him to teach and to protect Harry, to confront his former best friend *alone* when he thought he was a murderer etc. Peter - he's part Gryffindor, part Slytherin. Obviously cunning to have managed to spy on his friends for Voldemort for over a year, to not give himself away when James made him secret keeper and practically handed himself and his family over to Peter on a silver platter, to come up with an escape plan which turned Sirius into a traitor and himself into a hero, but equally brave in order to spy on them for a year, to take the risk that they could catch him or he could fail Voldemort (who seems not to like failure) needs nerves of steel. But Hufflepuff? The house associated with *loyalty*, Peter? The Traitor? Nope, no way on earth! Kneasy > The closeness of their friendship makes one suspect that they were all > in the same House. It's intriguing that confirmation is so hard to > find - why? But if they were all in the same House the alliance didn't > survive into adulthood. It all fell apart with betrayal and rash > actions. > K Peter seems to have been part of the group because he was their audience, he was there to tell (certainly James and Sirius - not sure about Remus) them how clever they were and how funny and how wonderful, perhaps his pride couldn't take it any more and he wanted to show them how clever *he* was. He wanted the last thing James knew to be that 'poor little Peter' was working for Voldemort that, in effect 'poor pathetic Peter' had bested him, bested all of them, and killed him and his family. And that image of him that they all had is the reason for the mistrust amongst the others - after all James couldn't be betraying himself, Peter wasn't even worthy of consideration as the spy and Remus and Sirius each knew that they were innocent so they would have felt they had no choice but to suspect the other - and since Peter had been spying on them for a year he had plenty of time to play on their fears. I think the hat tries to put children in the House they fit best but most children have aspects of two or more houses so he also tries to put them in the house where they will do best. If Hermione had been a ravenclaw she'd probably have lived in the library and retreated into books without anyone thinking that was wrong and possibly never have had the chance to make any real friends, not friendships as deep as she has with Ron and Harry - I'm not saying that Ravenclaws can't be friends, just that with Hermione's personality and her inclination to turn to books for everything she might have ended up as a bit of a loner without the boys to drag her into the real world. Given Harry's view of Slytherin, especially since one of them killed his parents, he would probably have resented being put in that house and might well not have made friends there either. K From afleitas at bankrate.com Fri Dec 19 17:54:48 2003 From: afleitas at bankrate.com (kneazelkid) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 17:54:48 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: <244F771D-323F-11D8-99E3-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87322 Kneasy wrote: Interesting artifact, that Sorting Hat. It turns up in a post occasionally, usually as a source of quotes or explication, but no-one so far as I can recall has ever questioned the veracity of the words attributed to it. Kneazelkid: The sorting hat has bothered me ever since Ron's dad said "Never trust anything if you can't see where it keeps it's brain." (or something like that). Surely, someone has discussed this before and I have missed it? If so, pointers anyone? If not, thoughts anyone? From lmbolland at earthlink.net Fri Dec 19 17:56:19 2003 From: lmbolland at earthlink.net (goodnight_moon5) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 17:56:19 -0000 Subject: Books about HP and religion? In-Reply-To: <002b01c3c28e$c484adc0$0f3a2d0c@D55NTV31> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87323 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Krystol Berry" wrote: > I'm wondering if anyone has come across any good books relating the HP series to Christianity. Hi Pixie, I meant to respond, but time's gotten away from me. I can recommend several. The Gospel According to Harry Potter and/or What's a Christian to do with Harry Potter - both by Connie Neal. They are both *okay*. I give that designation with hesitation because Ms. Neal really put her neck out on the line many years ago proving how HP wasn't incompatible with Christianity. My 13yo daughter has read and enjoyed the Connie Neal books - they give her ammunition for discussing HP with other Christian kids/relatives who think HP is akin to devil worship. They are, however, rather light-weight. For adults, I highly recommend A Charmed Life by Francis Bridger. Bridger is a CofE priest and has done a brilliant job deflecting the criticism and explaining how the topics JKR approaches in HP are worthy ones. All three of the above books show how HP is "still compatible" with Christianity. The fourth book I can recommend - The Hidden Key to Harry Potter by John Granger - explains how HP is, in fact, Christian Literature and JKR is a closet inkling such as Lewis, Tolkein, and L'Engle. He suspects JKR is a Christian with a hidden agenda to sneak past the "hidden dragons" of men's hearts to give eternal messages. I'm currently on my second read-through of Hidden Key - there is much to flesh through. I hope that's helped, all books can be had thru amazon. Lauri B. From afleitas at bankrate.com Fri Dec 19 18:02:48 2003 From: afleitas at bankrate.com (kneazelkid) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 18:02:48 -0000 Subject: Luna Lovegood can see the future. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87324 vmonte wrote: I think Luna may be able to see the future. I don't think she has completely mastered it, but the idea makes sense if you think about some of her behavior in OOTP. kneazelkid: This got me to thinking. In The Once and Future King, Merlin seemed to be able to see into the future. But he explained that he was living backwards. Then that reminded me of that weird chicken/egg thingy at the MOM. Could this be was Luna is doing? Living backwards? She seems to me to have the calmness of someone much older than her years. From sydorov47 at yahoo.com.au Fri Dec 19 11:13:36 2003 From: sydorov47 at yahoo.com.au (sydorov47) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:13:36 -0000 Subject: Force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than ... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87325 Hello All, This is my first post so please be gentle :-) Just to add a bit to various predictions for the next two books. I would like to point to (Book5, Department of Mysteries) the room, which was locked and which melted Sirius knife. It looks like it is the same room, which AD mentioned to Harry as always locked room in the Department of Mysteries, which contains "Force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the many subjects for study that reside there." This force looks like one of the forces that can affect LV. It managed to force LV to abandon possessment of Harry's body. So it would be possible that somehow Harry would unleash this force on the LV. Sydorov From dmoorehpnc at yahoo.com Fri Dec 19 16:40:19 2003 From: dmoorehpnc at yahoo.com (dmoorehpnc) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 16:40:19 -0000 Subject: Portraits--Can Sirius come back? In-Reply-To: <20031219011251.40693.qmail@web41201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87326 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Vinnia wrote: > greatlit2003 wrote: > > I was wondering why more wizards don't create > portraits of themselves. Why don't Sirius (and Lily > and James) have portraits so that they can be with > Harry? If Phineas Nigellus and Sirius's mum can still > interact with others after death, why can't Sirius do > the same? > > Vinnia: > You know, I was thinking about this the other day. I > also wonder why each person can only have one portrait > image. I mean, with Phineas (and Dylis Derwent), they > have 2 frames, but only one image, going back and > forth. > > Is it possible that wizarding portraits are not > painted by artist? I mean, those images are actually > the wizards themselves in another dimension? So, when > they think that their mission in this world is > finished, they just jump into the frame, and with some > enchantment live as a portrait. Dmoorehpnc: My thought is this, the other wizards posed for their pictures. In other words they were still alive for their pictures to be painted. Maybe James, Lily and Sirius did not take the time to pose for portraits. Also having your portrait painted is both a luxury and a great time waster for the person whose portrait is being painted. Whatever methods and materials wizard artists use to produce artwork it would seem that it captures some of the essence of the one who poses. I would think it would be similar to the spell Tom Riddle used to put himself in the diary in CoS. Anyway who's to say that JKR won't spring a portarit of Sirius on us, being from a rich and old wizarding family there may be one somewhere in Grimmauld Place. From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Fri Dec 19 18:29:49 2003 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 18:29:49 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Defense Against the Dark Arts Job Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87327 I read that JKR had said that Snape can't get the Defense Against the Dark Arts job because Dumbledore feels that it will cause Snape's bad side (as if it could get worse) to come out. That intrigues me. What do you think the reason is? What is it about the Defense Against the Dark Arts job that will bring out the evil in Snape? From Nimbus1108 at aol.com Fri Dec 19 19:06:46 2003 From: Nimbus1108 at aol.com (nimbus1108) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 19:06:46 -0000 Subject: Portraits--Can Sirius come back? In-Reply-To: <20031219011251.40693.qmail@web41201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87328 greatlit2003 wrote: > I was wondering why more wizards don't create > portraits of themselves. Why don't Sirius (and Lily > and James) have portraits so that they can be with > Harry? If Phineas Nigellus and Sirius's mum can still > interact with others after death, why can't Sirius do > the same? Nimbus: I can't tell you where I read this, and I can't support it, but somewhere I read that portraits are "alive" because the subjects put a part of themselves (fingernails, a hair from their head etc.) in the enchanted paint. From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Fri Dec 19 19:49:40 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 08:49:40 +1300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and the Defense Against the Dark Arts Job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031220083817.02800560@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 87329 At 18:29 19/12/2003 +0000, you wrote: >I read that JKR had said that Snape can't get the Defense Against the >Dark Arts job because Dumbledore feels that it will cause Snape's bad >side (as if it could get worse) to come out. That intrigues me. What >do you think the reason is? What is it about the Defense Against the >Dark Arts job that will bring out the evil in Snape? Tanya wrote below: I was perusing the Lexicon last night for research. (fanfic). One thing that stood out for me what the Snape applied for the DADA job at the very start before he actually began working at Hogwarts. Now back then he was a DE and a spy. It all hinges on exactly when he got the post at Hogwarts, but if LV was still in body at that point, it might have done Snape's cover good to try and get into Hogwarts to teach defense with LV's blessing. Now, this could be the case that Dumbledore is keeping him away from the DADA job to prevent LV from trying to activate the original plan. Or else the job would drag Snape back to his roots as he came to Hogwarts as a student knowing more than most senior students. Sorry if this is too OT or theocratical. From rredordead at aol.com Fri Dec 19 20:49:35 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 20:49:35 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: <244F771D-323F-11D8-99E3-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87330 Kneasy wrote: A more interesting question is, has it been tried before? In the previous generation that grew up during the first rise of Voldemort? A reading of the characters and their attitudes might give us: James - Gryffindor. Up for anything; rash; needed reining in. Sirius - Slytherin. Brought up as a Black. Say no more. Remus - Ravenclaw. Clever enough to become Professor Lupin. Peter - Hufflepuff. The slow one. Always lagging behind the others. Is history in the process of repeating itself? Is this a portend of things to come? Mandy here: Hummm. So are you suggesting that DD was attempting to create a weapon of sorts that would say, draw on the power of Hogwarts, using James, Sirius, Remus and Peter, each child from a different houses working together against LV? If so, did DD plan on them becoming such good friends? Could DD have arranged that? Is he really such puppet master in total control of every child in that school? Secondly, if what your saying is true and it obviously failed, possibly because once the four friends were out of the control of DD they all imploded, is DD now attempting the same plan, creating a weapon but from a different perspective, by putting four friends, Harry, Ron, Hermione and Neville with different personalities in the same house? Does DD believe he can control their destinies once leaving school any better this second go around? Then again he doesn't have to if Harry is forced into dealing with LV while they are still at school. I like your idea but I can't quite figure it out. Perhaps I ought by your reckoning belong in Redial Hufflepuff. ;-) Which brings me to my second point Kneasy wrote: Hufflepuffs - loyal and apparently not too bright; could even be the remedial class Mandy here: Poor Hufflepuff! In the defense of the house no one wants to belong to, it is most certainly not the remedial dumping ground of Hogwarts! Each house would have it's own remedial classes. Probably one-on-one, like Snape suggested Harry was doing when Draco interrupted their Occulmency lesson. Also the requirements of Gryffindor and Slytherin don't specify intelligence. Ron, Neville, Crabbe and Goyle are a perfect example of this. Hufflepuff is the house the majority of the world would belong to. Happily and unhappily following along, doing what is required of us, moaning about our lot in life but too afraid to actually change the world around us to make it any better. Mandy, who, ofcourse, wouldn't be in Hufflepuff you understand. I'd be in Slytherin or Gryffindor. ;-) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 19 20:52:48 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 20:52:48 -0000 Subject: Mr Ollivander (was:In bed with Harry Potter) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87331 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, abbet659 at h... wrote: > Sen wrote: > > What I'm getting at is, unless it comes out later that > > Voldywhat's wand is *not* his original wand from his > > Hogwarts days, then Ollivander knows Riddle = Voldywho > > (which I am under the assumption is not a well known > > fact!). It just seems fishy to me. It seems to me like > > Ollivander is possibly on Voldythingie's side because of > > the fact that he's keeping that bit of information a > > secret. Unless of course it's like the whole Doctor/patient > > confidentiality sort of thing, but I doubt it. > > > My only guess is that Dumbledore told Ollivander that Riddle = Voldy > and that it was important that he know at once who the second wand > went to. This brings up another question: Seems that most people > know Voldemort went to Hogwarts and that he was in Slytherin. How > would people know this if hardly anyone knew Riddle = Voldy. > > Abbet Carol: I think your guess regarding the wand is correct, but are you sure that "most people" know that Tom Riddle became Voldemort? What canonical evidence do we have that anyone besides Dumbledore, Lucius Malfoy, Peter Pettigrew, HRH, and the Weasleys know this? As someone mentioned recently, even McGonagall doesn't seem to know who opened the Chamber in CoS. Probably the Order members know who Voldemort is now because DD has told them, but I don't recall any specific statements to that effect in the books. (I can't tell whether Bellatrix knows or not; she doesn't believe Harry's statement that Voldemort is a halfblood, but that doesn't preclude her knowing that Voldemort was once YTR.) Carol From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Dec 19 21:00:00 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:00:00 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: <002001c3c69a$8dba0eb0$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87332 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > *sigh* I could save myself a lot of effort you know if I just changed my sig > to "Kneasy I disagree with everything you say" ;) Because I do seem to spend > a lot of time doing that - and here we go again. Kneasy: Oh, goody. That's what I'm here for. K: > I guess I should for the > sake of clarity start with the fact that I consider myself a Slytherin > (although my ambition does have limits - I don't want to rule the world, > people try and kill you if you do that, I want to be the power behind the > throne, telling the target uh I mean leader what to do ) > Kneasy: Not nearly as much fun as leading the sack, demolition and enslavement of target communities. Still, if you want to settle for second best.... Maybe you've been taking lessons from Dumbledore. > K > Well I guess it depends how sentient it is as to whether or not it has the > ability to lie (or I guess the ability to tell the truth since it could have > been 'programmed' to lie through its metaphorical teeth). I've always > assumed that it has enough intelligence to try and interpret the original > wishes of the founders as well as it can, but no more than that - however > after OoP I'm beginning to wonder. Kneasy: Hmm. Programmed. Interesting word - it implies an inhibition or denial of the existence of an unfettered intelligence. Presumably it is there to sort, without fear or favour, according to the character of the child it sits on. And that is my point; it seems to be ignoring it's own guidelines. > K > You? Suspicious and cynical? Wow, I mean I'm stunned, I'd never have guessed > ;) Kneasy: Do I detect a soupcon of irony? Can it be my cover is blown? > K > OK I have a problem with some of your definitions. > > Gryffindor - brave, courageous. Yes I agree with this - although I wish some > people would realise that you can be a risk-taking bad to the bone wizard > and still qualify for Gryffindor under this definition. > > Slytherin - Ambitios, cunning, and I'm not sure there shouldn't be some > element of loyalty here, the hat does say. "perhaps in Slytherin you'll find > your real frineds". Also let's not forget that Salazar wanted it to be a > house of purebloods even if the hat doesn't *always* follow that. > > Ravenclaw - intelligent and studious. > > Hufflepuffs - loyal and hardworking. I dislike this assumption that > Hufflepuffs are stupid. Neither of the qualities that Puffs are associated > with imply a basic lack of intelligence. If the dumb kids ended up in > Hufflepuff Draco would be missing a couple of bodyguards - actually if I > were him I'd be hoping that my comments about loyalty do apply because I > don't think they're bright enough to be cunning and if they're not loyal > either he could be in trouble. > Kneasy: The definitions I listed were the short-hand version, of course. And also I'm not so one-eyed that I believe that each of the characters isn't a blend of differing attributes. By the same token the Hat must make it's choices based on something and I believe that the choice is made according to the dominant characteristic of the personality involved. > K > > Well I don't think you can set up four pigeonholes and expect all the kids > to fit perfectly into any one of them. Hermione is certaily brave as well as > intelligent and Neville is one of the most courageous characters in the > books, whereas Harry never struck me as particularly brave (because he never > seems scared of anything or to appreciate the danger he's in most of the > time, if you don't recognize danger then it's difficult to actually be > brave. Doing something you don't know is dangerous isn't brave - stupid > possibly - but not brave). And remember the first time we really get to see > Neville's bravery he is standing up to the Trio not loyally following them > around. Harry on the other hand is *incredibly* loyal - possibly the hat > felt he wasn't hardworking enough to qualify for Hufflepuff. > Kneasy: So which is Hermione's dominant attribute? Intelligence or bravery? No contest - intelligence. She shows no more bravery than other Ravenclaws but is much more intelligent than the Gryffindors. Possibly the academic star pupil of the year. Neville has only shown bravery at the end of OoP. Forget that guff from DD at the end of PS/SS - that was just to fix the House championship. And maybe also to bind the four of them closer together as a team. What did Neville think the Trio would do when he 'stood up to them', beat him to a pulp? Of course not. No, he was scared of the consequences for *Gryffindor* if they got caught breaking the rules. Loyalty to his House. And his visits to St Mungo's aren't a sign of bravery, they're exercises in endurance and stoicism - a family duty. Another form of loyalty. A top scholar he's not; we can agree on that. An aptitude towards Herbology maybe; but everything else he tries is not all that outstanding. Hufflepuff. Harry we agree on. This links back to a thread from a few months back on the nature of bravery; he's more driven than brave. He is ambitious. He also has some of Voldy's traits stuck in him from Godrics Hollow, or at least DD implies as much. He uses an Unforgiveable curse. And in OoP he is not growing up to be a nice person at all. He could easily be Slytherin. In fact, according to the Hat, that's where he'd do best. But these three diverse personalities all end up in Gryffindor, over-riding the directives that the Hat is supposed to enforce. Why? I don't believe it's by accident or chance - it's a fix to bring them together. Probably perpetrated by that ace fixer Dumbledore. > K > Sometimes I wonder if I'm reading different books to everyone else. > > James - yeah I think you're spot on with him. > > Sirius - why Slytherin? the Hat judges (or is supposed to) on the > personality of the child not their family background. Sirius has never shown > any sign of being cunning at all and doesn't seem terribly ambitious. > Brave - yes without doubt. Also intelligent and loyal. Frankly if I had to > put Sirius in a house other than Gryffindor I'd make him a Hufflepuff. > Loyalty is one of his defining characteristics - he even stresses that he > feels Peter should have died rather than betray his friends like he himself > would have. > Kneasy: I wouldn't trust Sirius as far as I could throw him. He's weak. He makes excuses for his weaknesses to give a sort of spurious logic to them. He opted out as Secret Keeper - why? Did it give more protection to James and Lily? No. It was a meaningless gesture. Unless he placed a notice in the Daily Prophet Voldy would have come for him anyway. It saved his own skin because Peter betrayed his friends, though Sirius didn't know that would be the result at the time. His behaviour in the Pensive scenes was that of a shallow, sensation seeking, bored teenager who has a tendency to bully when given the opportunity but is reluctant to fight fair. Yes, he faced up to Snape at Grimmauld Place, but you'll notice there was no action, only bluster. Who seemed more confident and in control - Snape or Sirius? The blood of the Black family shines through. Don't forget, in OoP the Hat quotes Slytherin as wanting to teach those of the purest blood. That's one thing he does have. K: > Remus - definitely intelligent, I see him sort of as the hermione of the > original group, but I think his main characteristic would have to be his > fight against the wolf and against people's prejudices. The strength and > courage to survive as a werewolf, to survive the death and betrayal of his > only close friends, to come back to a place which must be full of memories > for him to teach and to protect Harry, to confront his former best friend > *alone* when he thought he was a murderer etc. Kneasy: We agree about Remus, then. But I suspect that he knew Sirius wasn't a murderer before they met in the Shrieking Shack, as I've argued before. K: > Peter - he's part Gryffindor, part Slytherin. Obviously cunning to have > managed to spy on his friends for Voldemort for over a year, to not give > himself away when James made him secret keeper and practically handed > himself and his family over to Peter on a silver platter, to come up with an > escape plan which turned Sirius into a traitor and himself into a hero, but > equally brave in order to spy on them for a year, to take the risk that they > could catch him or he could fail Voldemort (who seems not to like failure) > needs nerves of steel. But Hufflepuff? The house associated with *loyalty*, > Peter? The Traitor? Nope, no way on earth! Kneasy: No, he's not loyal, or not to his erstwhile friends, anyway. Loyal to Voldy? Loyal to himself? Hmm, stretching it a bit. But Hufflepuff (again in OoP) is quoted as saying she'll "take the lot" - presumably all those who don't fit comfortably into the other Houses. So he could slot in there. > K > > I think the hat tries to put children in the House they fit best but most > children have aspects of two or more houses so he also tries to put them in > the house where they will do best.... her inclination to turn to books for > everything she might have ended up as a bit of a loner without the boys > to drag her into the real world. > Given Harry's view of Slytherin, especially since one of them killed > his parents, he would probably have resented being put in that house and > might well not have made friends there either. Kneasy: Really? You think that the bouncy, nosy, intrusive Hermione on the Hogwart's Express in PS/SS would turn into a lonely, reclusive bookworm? That's not the way I see her. Maybe we are reading different books. So Voldy was in Slytherin (or so we surmise). Why should that affect the placement of Harry all that much? The Hat is a social counsellor now? It's supposed to place students where they will do best and it believes he would do best in Slytherin. But for some reason it doesn't follow through. It doesn't follow it's own rules with Harry, Hermione or Neville. Why? Kneasy From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Fri Dec 19 21:03:33 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (Blair) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:03:33 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: <244F771D-323F-11D8-99E3-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87333 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith wrote: > But, as you may have guessed, I've a very suspicious nature and >I have a theory that it may have been got at. The suspicious nature is what I like best about you Kneasy...you can spot a conspiracy at 500 feet. > OK, what are the characteristics of the members of the various >Houses at Hogwarts? > > Gryffindor - Brave, courageous > > Slytherin - Ambitious, and not overly scrupulous about achieving > their ambitions > > Ravenclaw - clever, clever, clever > > Hufflepuffs - loyal and apparently not too bright; could even be >the remedial class I agree about the first three, but I think there's more to Hufflepuff. Anyone else see Scream 2? Perhaps their bumbling lowers expectations, therefore enhancing their ability to effectively manuever within any given situation... > By my reckoning Hermione should be in Ravenclaw and I'm not the >only one. She's questioned in canon about why she's not in >Ravenclaw, but it all gets glossed over with a throw-away remark. >(Is there such a thing from JKR?). She's obviously one of the star >pupils; so why is she in Gryffindor? Hermione would be a good Ravenclaw, but then there is the rule- breaking part of her. Remember the Polujuice Potion? That actually had a little bit of Slytherin there to me...using any means to achieve their ends. How fun would Slytherin!Hermione be? > Neville is a Hufflepuff to the bone; poor scholar, not naturally > adventurous, basically good and modest. And he sticks with his >friends. The Neville we have seen so far is the one described here. I feel that Neville will become much more than we know...he'll become the man he's meant to be. >Harry would be in Slytherin if the Hat had had its way, and why >didn't the Hat have it's way? Is it in the habit of taking >seriously the uninformed wishes of eleven year olds? Hardly likely; >that'd be a recipe for chaos. I don't think alot of the kids have the same desire that Harry did. Ooh...I think I might be suffering from movie poisoning, but didn't Harry know that all the bad wizards were from Slytherin before he went to Hogwarts. (If this is movie poisoning, please send an antidote!) The Hat has to listen to the kids to some extent -- can't have a school full of miserable kids. :-D > The only typical Gryffindor of the four friends is Ron - a bit >rash, getting into scrapes at home as well as at school, but >willing to stick with Harry in his escapades even when he has >severe misgivings or even fear (remember Aragog and his >offspring?). What better definition of bravery is there? I wholeheartedly agree. Ron is the perfect example of Gryffindor- ism (is that a word?). When he goes with Harry to see Aragog (wow...I almost typed Shelob *grin*), that could be one of my favorite parts of the book. > I reckon the sorting was fixed. Either the Hat, or more likely > Dumbledore, wanted all four of them together in the same House - >and it had to be Gryffindor; it's the only House who's attributes >are flexible enough to accept all of them without questions being >asked. Dumbledore (or the Hat) was planning ahead. The four of >them form a little gang that is, in effect, all four Houses in >one. A combining, a cooperation, just as the Hat advises in OoP. >And so far it seems to have worked as an alliance against the >baddies. That makes sense to me. Like the Captain Planet kids! Um...did I show my age there? > James - Gryffindor. Up for anything; rash; needed reining in. Definitely. He's the Gryffindor king (well, without a song of course). > Sirius - Slytherin. Brought up as a Black. Say no more. I can understand that. I'm of the opinion that Sirius didn't begin to reject his family's ideas until he got to Hogwarts and met people with different ideas. It's rather hard to rebel from your family's ideas until you meet people with other ideas. For example, I didn't know there were people not in Unions until middle school (I'm from a Pittsburgh Union family *grin*). Also, until I know full details of the prank I'm sticking to my story that Sirius was using any means to stop Severus from following them. > Remus - Ravenclaw. Clever enough to become Professor Lupin. Not sure how much his professorship has to do with it, but I agree that he was very smart. I bet he's really hott too. *grin* >The closeness of their friendship makes one suspect that they were >all in the same House. It's intriguing that confirmation is so >hard to find - why? But if they were all in the same House the >alliance didn't survive into adulthood. It all fell apart with >betrayal and rash actions. I think they were all in the same House, for the reason of their friendship. I think the information is so hard to find as to keep us guessing. Maybe Dumbledore sees the error of what he did then, and now he's going to try to put things right. Oryomai --I need to use binoculars to see the same conspiracy that Kneasy can spot. From abbet659 at hotmail.com Fri Dec 19 19:28:29 2003 From: abbet659 at hotmail.com (abbet659 at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 19:28:29 -0000 Subject: Q for someone in England Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87334 1. In PoA, it says the Firebolt goes 150 mph, I was wonder ing the England editions say 150 kmph or 241kmph which is wat 150mph equals? 2. In OoP, Harry and the gang leave for the MoM as the suns going down and Harry gets back as the sun starts coming up, so how long is a night at the beginning of June. I'm in southern California so our nights should be quite longer than your. Abbet From dmoorehpnc at yahoo.com Fri Dec 19 16:58:47 2003 From: dmoorehpnc at yahoo.com (dmoorehpnc) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 16:58:47 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: <244F771D-323F-11D8-99E3-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87335 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith wrote: > I reckon the sorting was fixed. Either the Hat, or more likely > Dumbledore, wanted all four of them together in the same House - and > it had to be Gryffindor; it's the only House who's attributes are > flexible enough to accept all of them without questions being asked. > Dumbledore (or the Hat) was planning ahead. The four of them form a > little gang that is, in effect, all four Houses in one. A combining, a > cooperation, just as the Hat advises in OoP. And so far it seems to > have worked as an alliance against the baddies. Kneasy you are brilliant! I like your thinking the Four houses in One! Excellent. I'm not totaly on your side though but I can be easily be knocked over the line with a feather. Here's why, simply choice. Each one of the 4 made the the choice to be in Gryffindor. Although I concede that Neville's reasons have not been shared. I believe he feels the need to prove himself to be as good as his parents inspite of his fears, (isn't that the essence of courage?). All that being said your ideas are more intriguing. Dmoorehpnc From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 19 21:39:11 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:39:11 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Defense Against the Dark Arts Job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87336 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sawsan_issa" wrote: > I read that JKR had said that Snape can't get the Defense Against the > Dark Arts job because Dumbledore feels that it will cause Snape's bad > side (as if it could get worse) to come out. That intrigues me. What > do you think the reason is? What is it about the Defense Against the > Dark Arts job that will bring out the evil in Snape? Actually, Snape could be a lot worse than he is. Compare him with Umbridge, for example. Snape does ridicule his students and he's a master of sarcasm, but he isn't a sadist who makes students write their lines in their own blood and he has yet to use a spell to punish a student as Imposter!Moody did (transforming Draco into a ferret) and Umbridge considered doing (she was going to Crucio Harry). Also consider the number of times that Snape has protected or tried to protect Harry even though he heartily dislikes him. I think (I'm not sure) that Snape might be tempted to illustrate the unforgiveable curses by using them on students (as Imposter!Moody did--though I'm not sure we can believe his statement that he had DD's permission). In Snape's case, the temptation to use the methods of the enemy on his students, ostensibly to teach them to defend themselves, might be too great and he might succumb to his own darkest impulses. Also the use of the spells, even under special circumstances, corrodes the soul. You have to desire to kill or torture or dominate another person (which is why Crouch!Moody found it so easy to cast them). So I think DD may be keeping Snape away from both temptation and corruption. He has the potential to go back to the dark side (though I don't think he will). I think when Snape has finally proven his loyalty (really saving Harry from some dreadful danger and paying back his life debt), he'll be rewarded with the DADA post. Carol, who hopes that her head cold medication hasn't completely obliterated her ability to think clearly or post coherently From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 20 05:46:20 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:46:20 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Sorting Hat References: Message-ID: <00b401c3c6bc$98322400$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87337 > > Kneasy: > Do I detect a soupcon of irony? Can it be my cover is blown? > K That wasn't irony. It was sarcasm :) > > Kneasy: > I wouldn't trust Sirius as far as I could throw him. > He's weak. He makes excuses for his weaknesses to give a sort of spurious > logic to them. He opted out as Secret Keeper - why? Did it give more > protection to James and Lily? No. It was a meaningless gesture. Unless he > placed a notice in the Daily Prophet Voldy would have come for him anyway. K You've misunderstood the idea behind him not being secret keeper. He didn't want a 'notice in the daily prophet' because no one was supposed to know he wasn't the secret keeper. Voldemort was *supposed* to come for him - and he wouldn't be able to tell him anything because he didn't know anything. The idea was to let Voldemort waste his time chasing after Sirius (who presumably would have gone into hiding if it looked like Voldemort was getting close) instead of going after the person who was *really* the Secret Keeper. In other words he was going to put his life in danger so that James would be safe while making sure that if he was captured he couldn't betray the secret. That's why no one other than James and Lily, Peter (the new secret keeper) and Sirius knew about the change. K From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 20 05:47:26 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:47:26 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Q for someone in England References: Message-ID: <00ba01c3c6bc$bffc4c40$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87338 > 1. In PoA, it says the Firebolt goes 150 mph, I was wonder ing the > England editions say 150 kmph or 241kmph which is wat 150mph equals? > I don't have the book but I would assume it said mph, why would it use klilometres? In the UK distances are measured in miles. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Dec 19 21:47:19 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:47:19 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87339 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > > Mandy here: > Hummm. So are you suggesting that DD was attempting to create a > weapon of sorts that would say, draw on the power of Hogwarts, using > James, Sirius, Remus and Peter, each child from a different houses > working together against LV? If so, did DD plan on them becoming > such good friends? Could DD have arranged that? Is he really such > puppet master in total control of every child in that school? > Kneasy: I don't think that WMPP were about Voldy; it just happens that they were of the same time as his rise. No, I think they were placed together to protect Lupin. He needed friends at the school and DD arranged it all. Mandy: > Secondly, if what your saying is true and it obviously failed, > possibly because once the four friends were out of the control of DD > they all imploded, is DD now attempting the same plan, creating a > weapon but from a different perspective, by putting four friends, > Harry, Ron, Hermione and Neville with different personalities in the > same house? Does DD believe he can control their destinies once > leaving school any better this second go around? Then again he > doesn't have to if Harry is forced into dealing with LV while they > are still at school. Kneasy: Yes, that's roughly the idea. Harry is an outsider, just like Lupin. He'll need friends with strengths he doesn't have. So provide them. Combine the characteristics of all the Houses into one small group. Get 'em to work together, all contributing something and at the same time 'tempering' Harry ready for his big day vs Voldy. True, DD can't exhibit the same closeness of control after they all leave school. Lucky the series is set to finish before that happens, eh? > > Mandy here: > Poor Hufflepuff! In the defense of the house no one wants to belong > to, it is most certainly not the remedial dumping ground of Hogwarts! > > Each house would have it's own remedial classes. Probably one-on-one, > like Snape suggested Harry was doing when Draco interrupted their > Occulmency lesson. Kneasy: Really? So why isn't Neville taking remedial Potions? McGonagall doesn't seem too happy with his Transfigurations, either. Not the most proficient, our Neville. Mandy: > Also the requirements of Gryffindor and Slytherin don't specify > intelligence. Ron, Neville, Crabbe and Goyle are a perfect example > of this. Kneasy: True. Crabbe and Goyle seem about as accomplished as Neville. They probably make up for it with unbounded, enthusiastic malevolence. Happy little Slytherins! Ron is the archetype Gryffindor IMO. Not dim, not bright, born to mischief and willing to try anything once. Mandy: > Hufflepuff is the house the majority of the world would belong to. > Happily and unhappily following along, doing what is required of us, > moaning about our lot in life but too afraid to actually change the > world around us to make it any better. Kneasy: You do yourself an injustice; Hufflepuffs are too meek to moan about life, the universe and everything. Born followers, meekly trailing behind the more forceful, hoping like hell they know what they're doing and that all will be well in the end. Suckers, every one. > Mandy, who, ofcourse, wouldn't be in Hufflepuff you understand. I'd > be in Slytherin or Gryffindor. ;-) Kneasy: Of course. Goes without saying. No doubt. Indubitably. Can't say that I'd fancy any of the Houses. Probably start one of my own. Why should the cantankerous, curmudgeonly, bloody-minded, suspicious misfits not have a haven to themselves? From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Dec 19 22:01:31 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:01:31 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: <00b401c3c6bc$98322400$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87340 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > > K > > You've misunderstood the idea behind him not being secret keeper. He didn't > want a 'notice in the daily prophet' because no one was supposed to know he > wasn't the secret keeper. Voldemort was *supposed* to come for him - and he > wouldn't be able to tell him anything because he didn't know anything. Oh but he did. He knew who the new Secret Keeper was. Voldy, first and foremost was after information. In the first instance the whereabouts of the Potters, so he wasn't going to kill Sirius on sight. When Sirius handed over the Secret Keepers job to Peter, he could no longer divulge that information. But he could tell Voldy who the new Secret Keeper was. And under Imperio! or Cruciatus! he would, too. So James and Lily were no better off. If Sirius' brilliant plan had worked as intended, then five people would have been killed (Sirius, Peter, James, Lily and Harry) instead of four (Sirius, James, Lily and Harry). It's called sloppy thinking. What Baldrick would call a cunning plan. Kneasy From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Dec 19 22:17:01 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:17:01 -0000 Subject: Q for someone in England In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87342 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, abbet659 at h... wrote: Abbet: > 1. In PoA, it says the Firebolt goes 150 mph, I was wonder ing the > England editions say 150 kmph or 241kmph which is wat 150mph equals? > Geoff: "The Firebolt has an acceleration of 0-150 miles per hour in ten seconds....." (POA "The Leaky Cauldron" p.43 UK edition) Although speeds on things like railway lines are tending to be in kph, the government hasn't dared suggest km or kph for ordinary road distances. They'd get lynched. Joe Public is not particularly pro- metrication.... > 2. In OoP, Harry and the gang leave for the MoM as the suns going > down and Harry gets back as the sun starts coming up, so how long is > a night at the beginning of June. I'm in southern California so our > nights should be quite longer than your. Geoff: Around the solstice, the sun would be setting, say, around 9.30-9.45 and rising possibly about 5.30. These are times in BST, not GMT. I haven't got a sunset table to hand so I'm working from memory. From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Dec 19 22:21:53 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:21:53 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87343 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: Kneasy: > Why should the cantankerous, curmudgeonly, bloody-minded, suspicious > misfits not have a haven to themselves? Geoff: I thought they did - isn't there a house called Slytherin? :-) From greatraven at hotmail.com Fri Dec 19 22:35:07 2003 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:35:07 -0000 Subject: Has Lupin taught before? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87344 Not sure if this has been discussed before, apologies if it has, but...Recently, I re-read POA and in the first scene where Lupin appears, on the train, it describes his case as having "Professor Lupin" on it in "peeling" letters. That suggests it's been there for a while and as "Professor" seems to be the honorific for a teacher, we have to assume he's done it before, some time ago - but when and where? Probably not Hogwarts, or someone would have mentioned it. This makes it interesting to speculate what other wizarding schools might exist in Britain, unless he's been overseas - perhaps thrown out of whatever school it was for being a werewolf? Poor man. Anyone got any ideas? Sue From derek at rhinobunny.com Fri Dec 19 22:36:23 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 14:36:23 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: References: <244F771D-323F-11D8-99E3-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20031219143321.02820350@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87345 dmoorehpnc wrote: >Kneasy you are brilliant! I like your thinking the Four houses in >One! Excellent. I'm not totaly on your side though but I can be >easily be knocked over the line with a feather. Here's why, simply >choice. Each one of the 4 made the the choice to be in Gryffindor. Derek: Here's something else to ponder... Through five books thus far, we have never encountered, nor have the characters apparently encountered, a single child who was disappointed by the house choice the Sorting Hat made for them. Of course, that doesn't mean there aren't any. But it's telling nonetheless, IMO. I suspect the Sorting Hat puts *all* the kids in the house they wish to be in... - Derek From derek at rhinobunny.com Fri Dec 19 22:55:57 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 14:55:57 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Has Lupin taught before? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20031219145034.01a8bbb0@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87346 sbursztynski wrote: >Recently, I re-read POA and in the first scene where Lupin >appears, on the train, it describes his case as having "Professor >Lupin" on it in "peeling" letters. That suggests it's been there for >a while and as "Professor" seems to be the honorific for a teacher, >we have to assume he's done it before, some time ago - but when and >where? Derek: We don't really know anything about Lupin's family, do we? I wonder if it could have been his mother or father's... - Derek From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 20 07:15:26 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 23:15:26 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Sorting Hat References: Message-ID: <001101c3c6c9$0c4524d0$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87347 Kneasy > > Oh but he did. He knew who the new Secret Keeper was. > Voldy, first and foremost was after information. In the first instance the > whereabouts of the Potters, so he wasn't going to kill Sirius on sight. > > When Sirius handed over the Secret Keepers job to Peter, he could no longer > divulge that information. But he could tell Voldy who the new Secret Keeper was. > And under Imperio! or Cruciatus! he would, too. > So James and Lily were no better off. > > If Sirius' brilliant plan had worked as intended, then five people would have > been killed (Sirius, Peter, James, Lily and Harry) instead of four (Sirius, James, > Lily and Harry). > K Right, of course and when Sirius vanished Peter was going to sit around and say oh Sirius has been captured I'll just wait here for Voldemort to catch up to me. Rubbish. The time Sirius was holding out and not revealing information would either give Peter a chance to hide or have the Potters change hiding place and secret keeper. It's the same reason resistance movements use cut-outs - instead of person A dealing directly with person B they do so through person C so that either one of them being captured can't bring the whole organization down, each person can only lead to one person giving the others the chance to hide/run. Sirius would be doing for Peter exactly what James was doing for his family - not trying to defeat the enemy but rather give the others time to leave. They don't give too many details of the plan but it would be a reasonable assumption that Sirius and Peter were in regular contact, which would mean that if Sirius vanished Peter could hide/run. K From pjcousins at btinternet.com Fri Dec 19 23:15:55 2003 From: pjcousins at btinternet.com (confusinglyso) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 23:15:55 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87348 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: Kneasy: > Why should the cantankerous, curmudgeonly, bloody-minded, suspicious > misfits not have a haven to themselves? Confusinglyso: Phil: They have, it's the staff room. :-) Filch, Snape, Hagrid, Trelawney, Binns, Flitwick, misfits all. From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Sat Dec 20 00:04:19 2003 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 00:04:19 -0000 Subject: Harry's bravery (was: The Sorting Hat) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87350 Hi all, Kathryn wrote: "( )Harry never struck me as particularly brave (because he never seems scared of anything or to appreciate the danger he's in most of the time, if you don't recognize danger then it's difficult to actually be brave. Doing something you don't know is dangerous isn't brave - stupid possibly - but not brave). And remember the first time we really get to see Neville's bravery he is standing up to the Trio not loyally following them around. Harry on the other hand is *incredibly* loyal - possibly the hat felt he wasn't hardworking enough to qualify for Hufflepuff." Then Kneasy replied: "Harry we agree on. This links back to a thread from a few months back on the nature of bravery; he's more driven than brave. He is ambitious. He also has some of Voldy's traits stuck in him from Godrics Hollow, or at least DD implies as much. He uses an Unforgiveable curse. And in OoP he is not growing up to be a nice person at all. He could easily be Slytherin. In fact, according to the Hat, that's where he'd do best." Not brave, Harry? Okay, I admit that I missed the thread on the nature of bravery; so if what I'm about to write is nothing new, I apologize. First, I'd like to quote some canon. Philosopher's Stone (Bloomsbury paperback): ? - Well, that's it then, isn't it? Harry said. The other two stared at him. He was pale and his eyes were glittering. - I'm going out of here tonight and I'm going to try and get to the Stone first. - You're mad! said Ron. - You can't, said Hermione. After what Mc Gonagall and Snape have said? You'll be expelled! - SO WHAT? Harry shouted. Don't you understand? If Snape gets hold of the Stone, Voldemort's coming back! Haven't you heard what it was like when he was trying to take over? There won't be any Hogwarts to get expelled from! He'll flatten it, or turn it into a school for the Dark Arts! Losing points doesn't matter any more, can't you see? D'you think he'll leave you and your families alone if Gryffindor win the House Cup? If I get caught before I can get to the Stone, well, I'll have to go back to the Dursleys and wait for Voldemort to find me there. It's only dying a bit later than I would have done, because I'm never going over to the Dark Side! I'm going through the trapdoor tonight and nothing you two say is going to stop me! Voldemort killed my parents, remember??. Maybe my favourite moment in the whole series. Harry's perfectly conscious of the danger he has to face when he decides to go through the trapdoor in order to find the Stone. What he says shows also that he is not that ambitious, or at least that he senses what kind of ambition he has to serve. And if being a Slytherin doesn't mean necessarily that a person is evil (Phineas is cynical, rough, shifty, but he "works" for Dumbledore), on the other hand, an unpleasant behaviour doesn't mean necessarily that a person has to be a Slytherin. Harry shares some characteristics with Voldemort, but he never uses them in a wrong way. Moreover, we have to consider how he happened to share them: after an inhuman mugging. We mustn't make confusion between a victim and a torturer He uses an Unforgivable curse in OotP? Yes, but he does it in a moment of extreme helplessness and he doesn't manage to cast it correctly. He has just lost his godfather, he's traumatised; it could be easy to find in the hatred he feels towards Bellatrix enough strength to Crucio her. But he fails, because even I such circumstances, he has not enough hatred in his heart to cast efficiently that kind of spell. He's not a very nice person in OotP? Well, as I wrote last summer, he's depressive, which doesn't mean however that his behaviour is a reflection of his deep personality. He was the witness of a murder; he suffered kidnapping, torture, what looks like a rape and finally had to duel with Voldemort. After what he spent one month and went back to school without any psychological support, without knowing why his friends didn't give him news, why Dumbledore didn't talk to him, didn't look at him; he had to face sarcasms and suspicion, etc, etc I don't know how he could be cute and gentle with such a burden. A depressive person is always disturbing; a depressive person is an accentuated reflection of our own disorders, of aspects of our own personalities that we don't like to consider, or that we are afraid to face. But Harry doesn't cop out. He fights; he tries to find something that could help him not to sink into despair. He doesn't find a solution every time he needs it, but he's still there. Bravery is not only a matter of behaviour and consciousness up against a danger. It's also a matter of resistance when life is a burden. And since the beginning, Harry shows an undeniable bravery. Amicalement, Two Knuts, Iris From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 20 00:05:46 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 00:05:46 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: An update on the threat to our groups Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87351 Update to our recent ADMIN, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/86659 We recently learned that two tables in the Database section of the main list, "Birthdays" and "Recommended Reading" were deleted. We have since managed to restore them from back-up copies. We have reason to believe they were deleted by the disgruntled party or parties who threatened the HPfGU community. Sad and petty? Absolutely. In order for us to protect the other databases, we have had to change the group settings. This means that the Database and the Files sections can't be open to members uploads. This has some implications for our members, as our Files section includes several sections (humour, essays) that members have always been able to add to themselves. [We've managed to tweak the database section; members can still add data to the databases.] We would welcome your thoughts on how we can re-establish a files section that allows member input without leaving files vulnerable to the same kind of deletion that happened to our database section. Please feel free to share your views on the Feedback list, or send an e-mail to the owner address. Lastly, if your birthday is in the birthday database, please double- check your entry. We have observed some glitches in the restored version of the Recommended Reading database (which sometimes occur when databases are imported) and we wouldn't want to get anyone's birthday wrong. Of course, if your birthday isn't in the Birthday Database, feel free to add it in. [grin] We do have some good news: we mentioned in the previous ADMIN that one of our administrative lists had been deleted; fortunately, Yahoo responded to our messages about this, and the admin list *was* restored. Pippy Elf For the List Administration team From derek at rhinobunny.com Sat Dec 20 00:13:52 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 16:13:52 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and bravery (was: The Sorting Hat) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20031219160647.0281c0d8@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87352 iris_ft wrote: >Not brave, Harry? (snip canon quote) >Maybe my favourite moment in the whole series. Harry's perfectly >conscious of the danger he has to face when he decides to go through >the trapdoor in order to find the Stone. Derek: He's conscious of the danger in that scene, but there are others in which he isn't. But I think the main point Kathryn and Kneasy were trying to make is that (for example) if Harry, Ron, and Neville all face some danger, and only Ron and Neville are afraid, then only Ron and Neville have shown courage by facing it. Facing something you're not afraid of doesn't require bravery. Harry is certainly *bold*, and I'm not sure I'd say he *lacks* bravery, per se. But I can see their point saying it's not his primary trait. To me, bravery is *Ron's* primary trait. He constantly faces things that frighten him. - Derek From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 20 08:24:48 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 00:24:48 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] (was: The Sorting Hat) References: Message-ID: <000701c3c6d2$bbc6ddf0$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87353 Iris Philosopher's Stone (Bloomsbury paperback): - Well, that's it then, isn't it? Harry said. The other two stared at him. He was pale and his eyes were glittering. - I'm going out of here tonight and I'm going to try and get to the Stone first. - You're mad! said Ron. - You can't, said Hermione. After what Mc Gonagall and Snape have said? You'll be expelled! - SO WHAT? Harry shouted. Don't you understand? If Snape gets hold of the Stone, Voldemort's coming back! Haven't you heard what it was like when he was trying to take over? There won't be any Hogwarts to get expelled from! He'll flatten it, or turn it into a school for the Dark Arts! Losing points doesn't matter any more, can't you see? D'you think he'll leave you and your families alone if Gryffindor win the House Cup? If I get caught before I can get to the Stone, well, I'll have to go back to the Dursleys and wait for Voldemort to find me there. It's only dying a bit later than I would have done, because I'm never going over to the Dark Side! I'm going through the trapdoor tonight and nothing you two say is going to stop me! Voldemort killed my parents, remember?. Maybe my favourite moment in the whole series. Harry's perfectly conscious of the danger he has to face when he decides to go through the trapdoor in order to find the Stone. K He's not 'perfectly conscious of the danger he ahs to face'. As far as he and the other two are concerned if he fails, he'll get expelled. That's it. *none* of them seem to think that going after the Stone could get them killed, the only mention of danger to life is when Harry's talking about what'll happen if Voldemort actually gets the stone. Harry has no idea at all what he's doing and he drags his friends with him (yes I know they chose to go, but he knows that they won't let him go alone). He's acting exactly as you'd expect an eleven year old Gryffindor to act. Stupidly, rashly and with no grasp of the consequences of his actions. Neville on the other hand it seems to me has a good grasp of the consequences of standing up to them or he wouldn't say he's willing to fight them - he knows there's a good chance that they won't back down because he's there but he tires anyway - against three people who are stronger, brighter and more magically powerful than he is. Having seen how isolated Hermione was at the beginning of the year he's probably well aware that he could be about to alienate three of the most popular kids in his year and house and leave himself without friends and at worse they could hex him (which they did). He's the only one who deserved any points at the end of year feast in my not at all humble opinion. Yes Hermione and Ron especially showed skill, courage and brains once they were going after the stone but they should never have been there in the first place. I wasn't terribly impressed with the Trio at the end of PS at all or the way Dumbledore was fawning all over them and giving them points. I don't blame Harry for his actions at the end of Oop - going to the Ministry on a rescue mission - between the complete failure of people who were supposed to be wiser than he is to tell him things that he had a right to know (like *exactly* what Voldemort was doing to him, would it have *killed* someone to explain that the visions were being sent deliberately to try and trick him rather than accidentally as a useful source of information?) and the fact that he has consistently been taught that if you break the rules and anyone but Minerva or Severus catch you you'll probably get rewarded for it he really couldn't be expected to act any other way. Albus maintains he left him with an abusive family so that he wouldn't grow up with people treating him like he was something special and then has consistently treated him like that for five years. He comes up with this absurd idea at the end of OoP that he has kept Harry in the dark to protect him after consistently failing to take any meaningful actions to do so over the last four books. Either he's nowhere near as wise and powerful as we've been told or he's out and out lying for some reason - and I'm beginning to favour the latter idea. Dumbledore is playing a real-life game of Wizards' Chess and cares as much for the welfare of his pieces as a child with a toy chess set - the only trouble being that toy chess pieces repair themselves after every battle and human beings, even wizards, don't. K *grumpy today for some reason and just waiting for someone to say something unwarranted about the Slytherins so I can let fly* From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 20 08:28:53 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 00:28:53 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and bravery (was: The Sorting Hat) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20031219160647.0281c0d8@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: <001801c3c6d3$4d8c1110$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87354 > Derek: > He's conscious of the danger in that scene, but there are others in > which he isn't. But I think the main point Kathryn and Kneasy were > trying to make is that (for example) if Harry, Ron, and Neville all > face some danger, and only Ron and Neville are afraid, then only > Ron and Neville have shown courage by facing it. Facing something > you're not afraid of doesn't require bravery. Harry is certainly > *bold*, and I'm not sure I'd say he *lacks* bravery, per se. But > I can see their point saying it's not his primary trait. To me, > bravery is *Ron's* primary trait. He constantly faces things that > frighten him. K Yes that's exactly what I meant - and it's one of the reasons I love Ron so much. *Especially* after he followed Harry into the Forbidden Forest chasing the spiders - personally I'd have taken Death Eaters over spiders any day :) I agree we can't say Harry lacks bravery, just that he doesn't need to demonstrate it very often because he very often isn't afraid. Neville and Ron are much better examples of courageous Gryffindors than Harry - I can't say that Harry fits the profile of any one house, maybe that'll help him to unite the four houses. K From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Sat Dec 20 00:55:39 2003 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 00:55:39 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: <244F771D-323F-11D8-99E3-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87355 Kneasy wrote: > OK, what are the characteristics of the members of the various Houses > at Hogwarts? > > Gryffindor - Brave, courageous > > Slytherin - Ambitious, and not overly scrupulous about achieving their > ambitions > > Ravenclaw - clever, clever, clever > > Hufflepuffs - loyal and apparently not too bright; could even be the > remedial class > > By my reckoning Hermione should be in Ravenclaw > thing from JKR?). She's obviously one of the star pupils; so why is she > in Gryffindor? Yolanda here: Actually, I see Hermione as being a Gryffindor. In PS/SS, Hermione was the one who stunned Neville. She's quick with her wand. In other words quick to *act*. In CoS, she came up with the whole Polyjuice potion plan, then helped to carry it out. She planned everything out, stole the ingredients, drugged the pastries to knock out Crabbe and Goyle, stole larger robes from the laundry, and brewed the Polyjuice potion. She may have also brewed the potion she drugged the pastries with, but I can't remember whether that was stated or not. Sure it was a smart plan, but look at what she *did*. Stealing potions ingredients from Snape by itself qualifies her as brave. Hermione's reaction to the "Heir of Slytherin" crisis was to *do* something. She was more active than Harry or Ron. Hermione is smart, but her courage puts her in Gryffindor. The sorting hat assigns you according to your most outstanding or dominant trait. This does not mean that you do not have other talents. Why can't someone be smart and brave? All the intelligent kids don't have to be in Ravenclaw. What about the prefects for the other houses? Aren't they good students? I don't know if we can count the Slytherin prefects. I admit that their appointment appears to be based on favoritism and in-house politics. Look at Harry. Harry is brave and is in Gryffindor, but he was also described as having "not a bad mind" and "resourceful" which would lean toward Ravenclaw's trait of "clever". Harry is also very loyal to his friends and when motivated (Patronus in POA and Summoning charm in GoF) works very hard. Aren't those traits of Hufflepuff? Look at Cedric Diggory. He was a prefect so he must have been a good student. He was a tri-wizard champion, so I for one do not doubt his bravery. Diggory was also sorted into Hufflepuff. Why? Hufflepuffs are known for loyalty and hardwork. Let's look at Digggory's personality and see if it fits that description. In POA, he wanted a re-match when he realized what had happened to Harry. Diggory wanted to "earn" his victory against Gryffindor (hardworking). In GOF, he re-paid Harry for telling him about the dragons, by helping him figure out the golden egg clue. He owed Harry one and he paid him back (loyalty). Hufflepuff is the house that you get put in if you don't fit in to any of the other three. That sounds like an awful big group to be labeled "slow". Just because someone isn't brave, clever, or amibitous that does not mean the are "rememdial". > Neville is a Hufflepuff to the bone; poor scholar, not naturally > adventurous, basically good and modest. And he sticks with his friends. Neville also stood up to his friends and was awarded 10 points for it in PS/SS. Dumbledore said, it takes more courage to stand up to your friends, than your enemies and he's right. Peer pressure is a powerful thing. Neville stood up to two of his roommates and the girl who's helping him out in potions. I would categorize that as brave. Yolanda From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 20 10:14:46 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 02:14:46 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Sorting Hat References: Message-ID: <003201c3c6e2$182c70a0$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87356 > Yolanda here: > > Why can't someone be smart and brave? All the > intelligent kids don't have to be in Ravenclaw. > What about the prefects for the other houses? > Aren't they good students? I don't know if we > can count the Slytherin prefects. I admit that > their appointment appears to be based on favoritism > and in-house politics. > K Are you basing that on something other than Draco's appointment - because I don't think we can blame favouritism for Draco being a prefect. I mean look at the competition, you've already said that you're assuming you have to be a good student to be a prefect (we don't know this for a fact but it's a reasonable assumption, after all if a student is already having trouble with their work giving them extra responsibilities isn't really going to help matters) - Crabbe and Goyle have been characterized as practically being one step lower than flobberworms on the evolutionary tree - and we certainly get the impression they're not very bright (although I must admit I would be delighted if it was part of a cunning slytherin act so that people would write them off as all brawn and no brains and they turned out to have passed all their OWLs with flying colours), and we don't know much about any other boys in their year so there's no real evidence either way - although the fact that Harry has classes with them and they've never made an impression doesn't suggest they have the presence to be a prefect. I agree that Draco is an irritating little brat but unless we see anyone better out of the boys in his year and House I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he got his position on merit. Besides Dumbledore seems to appoint prefects (he explains to Harry why he chose not to make him a prefect at any rate) and he doesn't favour the Slytherins. And on the subject of people grouping all the Slytherins together (which we are, but only sort of) if JKR doesn't give us anyone but Snape out of Slytherin house who isn't evil to the bone by the end of book seven the loud thump you hear will be me throwing my book across the room in disgust. She has a strong anti-prejudice theme, she has a strong theme of choice and individuality (Harry, Dobby etc) and yet she seems to be telling us you can write off 25% of the wizarding world's children at the age of 11! Other than Snape the closest we've seen to a Slytherin not being totally rotten is Regulus Black, who may have been a bigoted idiot but did try and get out even if it did get him killed. K From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Sat Dec 20 02:22:02 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 02:22:02 -0000 Subject: FILK: Only a Sorting Song Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87357 >From the Beatles' Yellow Submarine album, here is a filk to Only a Northern Song. Here is the midi: http://members.tripod.com/~jpgr_beatles/midis/files/OnlyANorthernSong. mid Dedicated to Gail The scene: After sitting on a shelf in Dumbledore's office all year, it's the Sorting Hat's annual moment in the sun. The Hat knows that It, its song and the Sorting Ceremony, is all that is keeping 1,000 hungry teenagers from their Welcoming Feast. Only A Sorting Song If you're listening to this song You may think it's lasting way too long. But it's fate; The Feast will just have to wait. It doesn't really matter if I cast a spell Wait for it, I'm going to tell! What the Hell! This is my Sorting Song It doesn't really matter what the Founders said Because the Four have long been dead! And gone. And it's Only a Sorting Song. Once a year I strut my stuff Shout out "Gryffindor!" or "Hufflepuff!" Just like that - And my word is enough. It doesn't really matter what house I choose Because win or lose, you can always refuse. As it's Only a Sorting Song. It doesn't really matter if your Feast is late. Sit and wait. Contemplate an empty plate. Make a date, for a Sorting Song. Some make speeches short and sweet: "Nitwit, blubber, oddment, tweak." That's OK, but where's the mystique? >From year to year I get to sing a song for you And when I'm through, you get to chew. And now, everyone, please do! (The tables fill with food and stomach grumbling sounds are replaced with delighted sounds of eating) Constance Vigilance From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Sat Dec 20 01:01:22 2003 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 01:01:22 -0000 Subject: Where is LV's lair? (Hide Out) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87358 Steve wrote: > In wondering where LV's lair might be, Steve (bboy_mn) pointed out: > > > Malfoy Manor has one major problem, I don't think Draco can be > trusted > > with the secret, in addition, I'm not sure Malfoy is in a position > to > > have escaped Death Eaters wandering in and out at all hours of the > > day. > quigonginger wrote: > I (Ginger) snipped the rest to reply: > > I agree totally with your concerns about Draco. Mr Crabbe and Mr > Goyle wouldn't draw much attention by visiting, but if Bella or even > LV himself showed up, the little twit would probably faint dead away, > and then brag to the Slyths about how they had had tea. Making sure > Harry could hear, of course. Yolanda here: Draco is at Hogwarts 9 months out of the year. As long as the house-elves removed evidence of DE guests and meetings, Draco would never know what goes on when he's away at school. During the 3 months that Draco is home, Lucius would have to take percautions. There could be certain areas of the mansion that Draco can't enter and for that matter has *never* been able to enter. > I have to wonder about the DE's wandering in and out, though. Which > brings me to my question: What limitations are there on apparating? The escaped DEs would have to be careful, but then again, they have to do that anyway. The DEs could apparate directly into certain rooms, use the floo, or apparate close by then come in through a side or back door. Malfoy's estate would be fairly secluded and probably have a nice, high brick wall around it which would help hide the DEs comings and goings. Yolanda From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Sat Dec 20 01:18:41 2003 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 01:18:41 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20031219143321.02820350@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87359 > Derek wrote: > Here's something else to ponder... > > Through five books thus far, we have never encountered, nor have > the characters apparently encountered, a single child who was > disappointed by the house choice the Sorting Hat made for them. > Of course, that doesn't mean there aren't any. But it's telling > nonetheless, IMO. I suspect the Sorting Hat puts *all* the kids > in the house they wish to be in... Maybe the students are all content with their houses, because the Sorting Hat put them where they belong. If you were put with other kids like you, then you'd probably be perfectly happy bonding with your housemates. Yolanda From teshara at yahoo.com Sat Dec 20 01:43:49 2003 From: teshara at yahoo.com (Chelle) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 01:43:49 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Defense Against the Dark Arts Job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87360 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sawsan_issa" wrote: > I read that JKR had said that Snape can't get the Defense Against the > Dark Arts job because Dumbledore feels that it will cause Snape's bad > side (as if it could get worse) to come out. That intrigues me. What > do you think the reason is? What is it about the Defense Against the > Dark Arts job that will bring out the evil in Snape? Actually, she says it would bring out the worst in Snape, not the evil. In another group one person said they thought it was because Snape is so paraniod and believes the children are being coddled (which they are) he would get out of hand. ("No one gets dinner until you can sucessfully disarm someone 6 different ways!") I have to agree, but it could be because in the second movie when Snape is yelling at the boys about the car he looks so much like my mother its frightening. ~ Chelle From teshara at yahoo.com Sat Dec 20 01:46:20 2003 From: teshara at yahoo.com (Chelle) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 01:46:20 -0000 Subject: Has Lupin taught before? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87361 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sbursztynski" wrote: > Not sure if this has been discussed before, apologies if it has, > but...Recently, I re-read POA and in the first scene where Lupin > appears, on the train, it describes his case as having "Professor > Lupin" on it in "peeling" letters. That suggests it's been there for > a while and as "Professor" seems to be the honorific for a teacher, > we > have to assume he's done it before, some time ago - but when and > where? Probably not Hogwarts, or someone would have mentioned it. > This makes it interesting to speculate what other wizarding schools > might exist in Britain, unless he's been overseas - perhaps thrown > out > of whatever school it was for being a werewolf? Poor man. > > Anyone got any ideas? > > Sue It's possible Lupin has been a private teacher or tutor. How did wizarding kids get an education before Hogwarts? And I don't think its feasable for all children to go to Hogwarts. Some parents wouldn't want their children attending a boarding school, no matter how close or cool it was. ~ Chelle From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Sat Dec 20 01:57:26 2003 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 01:57:26 -0000 Subject: (was: The Sorting Hat) In-Reply-To: <000701c3c6d2$bbc6ddf0$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87362 Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > K > > He's not 'perfectly conscious of the danger he ahs to face'. As far as he > and the other two are concerned if he fails, he'll get expelled. That's it. > *none* of them seem to think that going after the Stone could get them > killed, the only mention of danger to life is when Harry's talking about > what'll happen if Voldemort actually gets the stone. Harry has no idea at > all what he's doing and he drags his friends with him (yes I know they chose > to go, but he knows that they won't let him go alone). He's acting exactly > as you'd expect an eleven year old Gryffindor to act. Stupidly, rashly and > with no grasp of the consequences of his actions. No, Harry didn't know what he was doing, then again neither did Ron or Hermione. For that matter, how many of us adults reading PS/SS figured out that Voldemort was under Quirrel's turban. The trio thought they knew what they were doing and to be fair, how could they have known the truth. Also, they tried to tell the adults around them that the stone was in danger, but didn't have much success with that. About Harry "dragging" his friends with him, Harry didn't know what he was doing, but he thought he did. So, I'm not holding that against him. Also, since he didn't know how serious the consequences were, he can't be held responsible for dragging his friends into life threatening danger. Yes, Harry knew his friends wouldn't go without him, but does that mean that he shouldn't go? Some people would say "Yes", but I'm not one of them. His friends knew as much as he did, if they decided to come with him, then that is their choice. You say they wouldn't let Harry go by himself, but in POA, Hermione goes against Harry and Ron concerning the Firebolt. I belive that they made their choice based on more than "we have to follow Harry". They decided for themselves to go with Harry after the stone. Both of them, especially Hermione is perfectly capable of making a decision that goes counter to what Harry's doing. Yolanda From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Sat Dec 20 04:20:53 2003 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 04:20:53 -0000 Subject: Mr Ollivander (was:In bed with Harry Potter) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87363 Abbet wrote: > My only guess is that Dumbledore told Ollivander that Riddle = Voldy > and that it was important that he know at once who the second wand > went to. This brings up another question: Seems that most people > know Voldemort went to Hogwarts and that he was in Slytherin. How > would people know this if hardly anyone knew Riddle = Voldy. Voldemorts obsession with purity would make most people assume he was in Slytherin. Plus, he probably exhibited quite a bit of "Slytherin Pride". His former identity is something of a secret, but his house affliation probably isn't. Besides, the guy is a parselmouth, with a pet snape and snape-eyes. All of that combined with his pureblood obsession screams Slytherin. Yolanda From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Dec 20 00:19:42 2003 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 00:19:42 -0000 Subject: Force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87364 Sydorov: Force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the many subjects for study that reside there." This force looks like one of the forces that can affect LV. It managed to force LV to abandon possessment of Harry's body. So it would be possible that somehow Harry would unleash this force on LV. vmonte: And could that force have something to do with love? The same thing that protected him in the first book?! I need to read that section of the book again. :) From abbet659 at hotmail.com Fri Dec 19 23:35:11 2003 From: abbet659 at hotmail.com (abbet659 at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 23:35:11 -0000 Subject: Mr Ollivander (was:In bed with Harry Potter) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87365 Car wrote: > I think your guess regarding the wand is correct, but are you sure > that "most people" know that Tom Riddle became Voldemort? What > canonical evidence do we have that anyone besides Dumbledore, Lucius > Malfoy, Peter Pettigrew, HRH, and the Weasleys know this? As someone > mentioned recently, even McGonagall doesn't seem to know who opened > the Chamber in CoS. Probably the Order members know who Voldemort is > now because DD has told them, but I don't recall any specific > statements to that effect in the books. (I can't tell whether > Bellatrix knows or not; she doesn't believe Harry's statement that > Voldemort is a halfblood, but that doesn't preclude her knowing that > Voldemort was once YTR.) Sorry I forgot to put the "not" in that sentence, so if most people don't know about Voldmort = Riddle, then why would anybody think he went to Hogwarts and was in Slytherin? Abbet From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 20 12:39:57 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 04:39:57 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: (was: The Sorting Hat) References: Message-ID: <001101c3c6f6$624a0b20$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87366 Yolanda > No, Harry didn't know what he was doing, then again > neither did Ron or Hermione. For that matter, how > many of us adults reading PS/SS figured out that > Voldemort was under Quirrel's turban. The trio > thought they knew what they were doing and to be > fair, how could they have known the truth. Also, > they tried to tell the adults around them that the > stone was in danger, but didn't have much success > with that. > K I wasn't saying they should have known the truth - I was arguing with someone who said he was aware of the dangers. I was just pointing out that he wasn't, not saying he should have been. Yolanda > You say they wouldn't let Harry go by himself, but > in POA, Hermione goes against Harry and Ron concerning > the Firebolt. I belive that they made their choice > based on more than "we have to follow Harry". K I think that their main motivation, certainly Hermione's main motivation, was that Harry was going and they didn't want to force him to go alone. I'm not saying they always blindly follow him but rather that in any case where they think he might get into trouble and they could help him out they're not going to make him do it on his own even if they do have doubts about the wisdom of his actions. Had Harry not gone, they wouldn't have, hence my argument that they were only going because Harry was. Frankly I think Harry should be made to dwell on the fact that if he does something dangerous the others are likely to be right alongside him regardless of how sensible they think the course of action is - it might make him think first and act second as opposed to his usual modus operandi. (which to be fair isn't an unusual way for a teenage boy to act). K From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 20 12:42:22 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 04:42:22 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mr Ollivander (was:In bed with Harry Potter) References: Message-ID: <001f01c3c6f6$c00d08c0$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87367 Yolanda Besides, the > guy is a parselmouth, with a pet snape and snape-eyes. > All of that combined with his pureblood obsession > screams Slytherin. > >K lmao - a pet snape? Where would one get one of those, because I think there'd be quite a market out there for such a product. Is the fact that Voldemort's a parselmouth any more widely known than the fact that Riddle is Voldemort? K From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Sat Dec 20 05:14:35 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 05:14:35 -0000 Subject: Q for someone in England In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87368 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, abbet659 at h... wrote: > 1. In PoA, it says the Firebolt goes 150 mph, I was wonder ing the > England editions say 150 kmph or 241kmph which is wat 150mph equals? > Valky: I am from Australia we use the metric system here. Even though our version is printed with the phrase "miles per hour", which is really no issue here as we are all well versed in metric to imperial conversions anyway because imperial is our old school type. > 2. In OoP, Harry and the gang leave for the MoM as the suns going > down and Harry gets back as the sun starts coming up, so how long > is a night at the beginning of June. I'm in southern California > so our nights should be quite longer than your. > Valky: I am not sure exactly which season it is but I have heard that in places as far north as england the days are very very long during certain seasons. The sun rises in the early morning and sets well into the evening something like 10pm some nights. In southern California you're much nearer the equator and further from the poles, so your days would be much like ours here in Northern Australia and very different from England. Our days are close to all the same length year round. Oh yeah and also June is midsummer in England. Christmas Cheers from Valky From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sat Dec 20 05:44:29 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 16:44:29 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Q for someone in England In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3FE47C6D.14966.BEFEB8@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 87369 On 19 Dec 2003 at 19:28, abbet659 at hotmail.com wrote: > 2. In OoP, Harry and the gang leave for the MoM as the suns going > down and Harry gets back as the sun starts coming up, so how long is > a night at the beginning of June. I'm in southern California so our > nights should be quite longer than your. OK - get out my Harry Potter astronomy notes. At the approximate location of Hogwarts, at the start of June, sunset will tend to be around 10pm, sunrise around 4.30am. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Sat Dec 20 04:35:38 2003 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 04:35:38 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: <003201c3c6e2$182c70a0$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87370 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > > > Yolanda here: > > > > > Why can't someone be smart and brave? All the > > intelligent kids don't have to be in Ravenclaw. > > What about the prefects for the other houses? > > Aren't they good students? I don't know if we > > can count the Slytherin prefects. I admit that > > their appointment appears to be based on favoritism > > and in-house politics. > > > > K > > Are you basing that on something other than Draco's appointment - because I > don't think we can blame favouritism for Draco being a prefect. I mean look > at the competition, > although the > fact that Harry has classes with them and they've never made an impression > doesn't suggest they have the presence to be a prefect. I agree that Draco > is an irritating little brat but unless we see anyone better out of the boys > in his year and House I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and > assume he got his position on merit. Besides Dumbledore seems to appoint > prefects (he explains to Harry why he chose not to make him a prefect at any > rate) and he doesn't favour the Slytherins. Yolanda here again: I agree that Draco probably got the position by default. He may have been the best choice in his year. Of course, if Crabbe and Goyle were an example of his competition then that isn't saying much. Draco may have gotten lucky and been born in the right year. We know there are other Slytherin boys in Harry and Draco's year (the boy that could see the Thestrals for instance). We don't know much about them though. I would say that anyone would be better than Draco, then quickly correct myself. Again, Crabbe or Goyle would definately have been worse. Yes, it does sound like Dumbledore choses the prefects, however I would imagine the Heads of House make suggestions and we all know who Snape would have suggested. Yolanda From alina at distantplace.net Sat Dec 20 07:24:43 2003 From: alina at distantplace.net (arealin) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 07:24:43 -0000 Subject: OOP:Favorite Lines... In-Reply-To: <166.228df74b.2c2fd1bb@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87371 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, PurpleBear1976 at a... wrote: >fav lines thread I know it's "a bit" late, but I went through the whole thread and these quotes haven't been mentioned: McGonagall: "It unscrews the other way." hehe I would've quoted the whole passage, but I don't have my book at the moment. and Ron: "How was it?" Harry: "Wet. Because she was crying." Ron: "Oh. Are you that bad at kissing?" Sorry this is paraphrased, but again, no book :( From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Dec 20 07:52:28 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 07:52:28 -0000 Subject: Q for someone in England In-Reply-To: <3FE47C6D.14966.BEFEB8@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87372 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > On 19 Dec 2003 at 19:28, abbet659 at h... wrote: > > > 2. In OoP, Harry and the gang leave for the MoM as the suns going > > down and Harry gets back as the sun starts coming up, so how long is > > a night at the beginning of June. I'm in southern California so our > > nights should be quite longer than your. > > OK - get out my Harry Potter astronomy notes. > > At the approximate location of Hogwarts, at the start of June, > sunset will tend to be around 10pm, sunrise around 4.30am. Geoff: Yes, I'd forgotten how much further north Hogwarts is. the figures I suggested yesterday were for the south-west. I know from experience that, even later in the summer, there can be upwards of an hour's difference in the sunrise and sunset times between the Scottish highlands and the south of England. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Dec 20 09:48:30 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 09:48:30 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: <001101c3c6c9$0c4524d0$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87373 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > K > Right, of course and when Sirius vanished Peter was going to sit around and > say oh Sirius has been captured I'll just wait here for Voldemort to catch > up to me. Rubbish. The time Sirius was holding out and not revealing > information would either give Peter a chance to hide or have the Potters > change hiding place and secret keeper. > Let's have a look at the likely sequence of events once Voldy finds Sirius. 1. "Imperio! Now, where are the Potters?" 2. "I don't know." 3. "You must know, you're their Secret Keeper aren't you?" 4. "No." 5. "Who is then?" 6. "Peter Pettigrew." 7. "Good. Just hold still while I modify your memory so you can't recall this meeting. I'll be back for you after I've dealt with Pettigrew and the Potters." or, 7. "Good. Take me to him." or, 7. "Good. Go and get him to let you meet the Potters. Then kill them." Time taken, about 30 seconds. Vital information obtained and no-one the wiser on the side of the goodies. The only way Sirius could avoid all this is to hide in a deep dark hole and not let anyone know where he is and he could do that without involving Peter. With the Imperius curse the idea of bravely holding out becomes impossible. Kneasy From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Dec 20 11:31:40 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 11:31:40 +0000 Subject: (was: The Sorting Hat) Message-ID: <147FBBB3-32E0-11D8-AECD-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87374 Responding to a combination of two of K's posts here, which gives me double the opportunity of stirring the pot. > K: Albus maintains he left him with an abusive family so that he wouldn't grow up with people treating him like he was something special and then has consistently treated him like that for five years. He comes up with this absurd idea at the end of OoP that he has kept Harry in the dark to protect him after consistently failing to take any meaningful actions to do so over the last four books. Either he's nowhere near as wise and powerful as we've been told or he's out and out lying for some reason - and I'm beginning to favour the latter idea. Dumbledore is playing a real-life game of Wizards' Chess and cares as much for the welfare of his pieces as a child with a toy chess set - the only trouble being that toy chess pieces repair themselves after every battle and human beings, even wizards, don't. > Kneasy: Hate to point this out, but you're starting to agree with me. This could lead you into to all sorts of mental trauma if you're not careful. This is the path that ends with full membership privileges in the League of Conspiracy Theorists, Paranoia Division. I've long bashed on about dear old bumbling DD as the Puppetmaster. He prevaricates, he obscures, he manipulates, he lies. I don't claim that he is evil, but he is setting everything up so that it conforms to his plan, whatever that is. He whitters on about the truth being precious and I immediately recall that quote by Churchill "In wartime, truth is so precious that she should always be attended by a bodyguard of lies." DD has only one aim - to defeat Voldy. Everything else is secondary to that; casualties are inevitable, they always happen in a war, so he'll accept them, reluctantly. Even Harry could be sacrificed if it led to the certain destruction of Voldemort. Meantime, Harry is being forged as a weapon, honed and sharpened, but he cannot be allowed to know what the plan is all about. Harry is likely to end up manoeuvered into a position where his options are severely limited, where he will then act as DD hopes and has planned for. I'm convinced that DD knew that James and Lily would be killed and accepted it because only that way could Harry become Voldys!Bane. And won't Harry be pissed when he realises this! > K *grumpy today for some reason and just waiting for someone to say something unwarranted about the Slytherins so I can let fly* And on the subject of people grouping all the Slytherins together (which we are, but only sort of) if JKR doesn't give us anyone but Snape out of Slytherin house who isn't evil to the bone by the end of book seven the loud thump you hear will be me throwing my book across the room in disgust. She has a strong anti-prejudice theme, she has a strong theme of choice and individuality (Harry, Dobby etc) and yet she seems to be telling us you can write off 25% of the wizarding world's children at the age of 11! Other than Snape the closest we've seen to a Slytherin not being totally rotten is Regulus Black, who may have been a bigoted idiot but did try and get out even if it did get him killed. > Kneasy: I'm a bit disappointed myself, but in the other direction. Slytherin aren't evil enough for my taste. Some of them may actually have some redeeming features. Remember, Harry is really a Slytherin; maybe there are some more like him tucked away in the Common Room in the dungeons. I do love really satisfying baddies. Unmitigated villains; cruel, vicious, unrepentant would-be despots. We need more of them - more, more! Blood should drip from the pages; Draco should stuff Hedwig with forcemeat and serve her up for Sunday lunch; Crookshanks would make a great pair of gloves; turn Trevor into a yo-yo. Yes! And that's before we get onto the characters that irritate. Luna Lovegood in particular is deserving of very special attention, preferably involving Lupin, a full moon and some Bearnaise sauce. And Dobby! No sadistic detail would be excessive where that little toe-rag is concerned. I salivate at the thought of a combination of fire ants and a chopped chilli pepper enema while he's employed as a substitute bludger. Lovely! LOLIPOPS rule OK! Mind you, I'm totally opposed to gratuitous violence. One must protect the younger readers, after all. Kneasy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Dec 20 14:41:22 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 14:41:22 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore (was: The Sorting Hat) In-Reply-To: <147FBBB3-32E0-11D8-AECD-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87375 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith wrote: Kneasy: > Hate to point this out, but you're starting to agree with me. This > could lead you into to all sorts of mental trauma if you're not > careful. This is the path that ends with full membership privileges in > the League of Conspiracy Theorists, Paranoia Division. > > I've long bashed on about dear old bumbling DD as the Puppetmaster. > He prevaricates, he obscures, he manipulates, he lies. I don't claim > that he is evil, but he is setting everything up so that it conforms > to his plan, whatever that is. Geoff: S'funny, I was thinking of raising a point to get the PaCTs (Paranoid Conspiracy Theorists) going. First, a quote: "'There's a Ministry of Magic?' Harry asked before he could stop himself. 'Course,' said Hagrid. 'They wanted Dumbledore fer Minister, o'course, but he'd never leave Hogwarts so old Cornelius Fudge got the job. Bungler if ever there was one. So he pelts Dumbledore with owls every morning askin' fer advice.'" (PS "Diagon Alley" p.51 UK edition) If your view that Dumbledore is manipulative, devious and even ESE is correct, then why didn't he allow himself to be put forward for the Minister's job? You suggest he is the Puppetmaster, using the pupils of Hogwarts like living chessmen. Yet, as Minister (as Fudge shows in OOTP), you can be even more manipulative and devious with the command of the media and of the legal system which you possess. So why choose the lesser course? Members of PaCT, leap to your keyboards! Changing the subject in passing: Kneasy: > I do love really satisfying baddies. Unmitigated villains; cruel, > vicious, unrepentant would-be despots. We need more of them - more, > more! Blood should drip from the pages; Draco should stuff Hedwig with > forcemeat and serve her up for Sunday lunch; Crookshanks would make a > great pair of gloves; turn Trevor into a yo-yo. Yes! And that's before > we get onto the characters that irritate. Luna Lovegood in particular > is deserving of very special attention, preferably involving Lupin, a > full moon and some Bearnaise sauce. And Dobby! No sadistic detail would > be excessive where that little toe-rag is concerned. I salivate at the > thought of a combination of fire ants and a chopped chilli pepper enema > while he's employed as a substitute bludger. Lovely! LOLIPOPS rule OK! > > Mind you, I'm totally opposed to gratuitous violence. One must protect > the younger readers, after all. Geoff: Glad to know you are conforming to the sentiments of the Season. I presume you are looking forward to a Christmas Kneas(y)-up. :-) From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 20 23:56:43 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 15:56:43 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Sorting Hat References: Message-ID: <002201c3c754$ec421580$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87376 Kneasy > > The only way Sirius could avoid all this is to hide in a deep dark hole and > not let anyone know where he is and he could do that without involving Peter. > With the Imperius curse the idea of bravely holding out becomes impossible. K I'm not sure that you can use Imperius like that - after all we know that Umbridge was willing to use unforgivables at the school but she insisted she needed Veritaserum (which seems to be incredibly complicated and time consuming to brew) in order to get Harry to tell the truth. Also the DEs would surely have used it on the Longbottoms rather than torture them for information - not that they might not have been inclined to torture them afterwards but they were torturing them to get them to reveal information that they were desperate to have, if a simple Imerio would have got the answer then they would have used that. No, we have seen that the DEs use torture to reveal information so it is logical to assume that that is what they would have used on Sirius and since they'd have been trying to get information he didn't have it would either have taken them a lot longer to get the information, because they'd presumably assume he was lying when he first said he didn't know or they'd never have got the information because he'd have ended up like the Longbottoms. I think it would have gone much more along the lines of : 'where are the potters?' 'I don't know.' 'where are the Potters?' 'I don't know' 'Where are the Potters?' 'I'm not the Secret Keeper' 'Liar. Where are the Potters?' etc etc K From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 21 00:05:21 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 16:05:21 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: (was: The Sorting Hat) References: <147FBBB3-32E0-11D8-AECD-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: <005101c3c756$21dde150$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87377 > Kneasy: > Hate to point this out, but you're starting to agree with me. This > could lead you into to all sorts of mental trauma if you're not > careful. This is the path that ends with full membership privileges in > the League of Conspiracy Theorists, Paranoia Division. > K Well I do occasionally agree with you - and I did last time there was a thread about Dumbledore. Kneasy > And won't Harry be pissed when he realises this! > K And there's a nice piece of reasoning that could lead to Dark Lord II - Harry Potter the Revenge > > Kneasy: > I'm a bit disappointed myself, but in the other direction. Slytherin > aren't evil enough for my taste. Some of them may actually have some > redeeming features. Remember, Harry is really a Slytherin; maybe there > are some more like him tucked away in the Common Room in the dungeons. > K I partly agree with you. I would like some better villains. Voldemort seems to be becoming an Evil Mastermind (complete with all the clich mistakes) and Draco was promising - but is now just an irritating brat. However while I would like some really satisfyingly evil baddies - I don't want them all to be Slytherins. I just cannot believe that you can separate off 1/4 of the 11 year olds at Hogwarts and be able to write the whole lot of as evil and irredeemable. K From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Dec 20 16:15:30 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 16:15:30 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore (was: The Sorting Hat) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87378 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > > > If your view that Dumbledore is manipulative, devious and even ESE is > correct, then why didn't he allow himself to be put forward for the > Minister's job? > > You suggest he is the Puppetmaster, using the pupils of Hogwarts like > living chessmen. > > Yet, as Minister (as Fudge shows in OOTP), you can be even more > manipulative and devious with the command of the media and of the > legal system which you possess. So why choose the lesser course? > Geoff, Geoff, poor lad; so trusting, so innocent. The Ministry of Magic, like any other Ministry is a bureaucracy. Lots of ambitious pen-pushers, paper-filers and possibly origami merchants all over the place. It runs on meetings and files. That wouldn't suit DD at all. Fudge fits into that sort of structure; probably packs the meetings with placemen who support everything he proposes - "All those in favour? All those against please update your CVs." Even so, he has to tell other people what he's doing and what he plans to do. When people complain, and start demanding that he do something, he has to respond in some way even if the answer is "No." He has to justify what he does. Not only that, it's a fair bet that there's a lot of Voldy suppporters beavering away to make sure that everything that happens is reported back to their favourite Evilness. Great opportunities for sabotaging DD, if he were the Minister - delaying actions, mis-interpreting messages, insisting on 'correct' procedure, starting whispering campaigns, building cliques and factions. I bet that there're lots of office holders looking for promotion. Internal politics; dodgy. He'd be hamstrung most of the time unless he did everything himself, which would defeat the object of being Minister in the first place. But DD at Hogwarts is master of all he surveys (at least until a Dolly Umbridge turns up; even then she can be circumvented). He can make decisions, meet 'undesirables', influence people and events and who's to know? His staff is hand-picked and he knows what everybody is up to. His word, or rather suggestion, is law. At Hogwarts he is a Dictator de facto. Out there in the wilds but still within easy reach of and in contact with all his little friends, sitting in his study doing who knows what. And he doesn't have to tell anyone anything. He's a spider, interpreting the vibrations of his web and spinning his plans accordingly. It sounds worse than it is; I don't think he's ESE!DD so much as Devious!DD. Like all politicians, Fudge likes to think that decisions once committed to paper are a done deal. Dumbledore knows different. Bits of paper mean very little; actions are very different from policies. (Witness Arthur and Shacklebolt subverting from within.) There is no way Dumbledore could have comparable freedom of action inside the Ministry unless he was installed as Dictator there too. No, for freedom of action Hogwarts beats the Ministry hands down. Kneasy who has had to deal with bureaucracies that induce nervous prostration From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Dec 20 17:33:12 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 17:33:12 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore (was: The Sorting Hat) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87379 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: Kneasy: > Geoff, Geoff, poor lad; so trusting, so innocent. > > The Ministry of Magic, like any other Ministry is a bureaucracy. Lots of > ambitious pen-pushers, paper-filers and possibly origami merchants all > over the place. It runs on meetings and files. That wouldn't suit DD at all. > Fudge fits into that sort of structure; probably packs the meetings with > placemen who support everything he proposes - "All those in favour? All > those against please update your CVs." Even so, he has to tell other people > what he's doing and what he plans to do. When people complain, and > start demanding that he do something, he has to respond in some way > even if the answer is "No." He has to justify what he does. > > But DD at Hogwarts is master of all he surveys (at least until a Dolly > Umbridge turns up; even then she can be circumvented). He can make > decisions, meet 'undesirables', influence people and events and who's to > know? > > His staff is hand-picked and he knows what everybody is up to. His word, > or rather suggestion, is law. At Hogwarts he is a Dictator de facto. Out > there in the wilds but still within easy reach of and in contact with all his > little friends, sitting in his study doing who knows what. And he doesn't > have to tell anyone anything. He's a spider, interpreting the vibrations of > his web and spinning his plans accordingly. It sounds worse than it is; > I don't think he's ESE!DD so much as Devious!DD. > Trusting, innocent? Oho no, I'm not, I'm a bit more streetwise than that. Remember I speak as an ex-teacher who had a fair amount of administrative experience and clout. Your view of Dumbledore as headmaster probably held water until about 1986-87. In fact, I acknowledge that all my "real" teacher training came from a Welsh head like Dumbledore who was his own master under whom I worked for 12 years. In my last few years, the then headmaster of my school (and most of us staff) had more than enough of Ministry type thinking thrown at him, especially after Keith Joseph became Secretary of State. I could write reams about the fun and games with the National Curriculum except it would be off-topic. Origami? When I took early retirement, four of my colleagues also did at the same time because we were tired of climbing a paper mountain and getting diverted from the task of teaching which is why we were in the profession. Pen-pushing or not, Fudge managed to keep the return of Voldemort under wraps for a year by keeping Dumbledore sidelined and by trying to boot Harry out of Hogwarts and started this by arranging the destruction of Barty Crouch. He was in a way reminiscent of Neville Chamberlain. What did friend Dumbledore have to say? "'You are blinded.... by the love of the office you hold, Cornelius!.... I tell you now - take the steps I have suggested and you will be remembered in office or out as one of the bravest and greatest Ministers for Magic we have ever known. Fail to act - and history will remember you as the man who stepped aside and allowed Voldemort a second chance to destroy the world we have tried to rebuild!'" (GOF "The Parting of the ways" pp. 614-15 UK edition) Hypothetical question. What would Devious!Dumbledore as you term him have done in a similar position? From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sat Dec 20 18:22:36 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 13:22:36 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] (was: The Sorting Hat) Message-ID: <18c.23dd7fbc.2d15ed6c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87380 In a message dated 12/19/2003 6:27:10 PM Central Standard Time, kcawte at ntlworld.com writes: > > He's not 'perfectly conscious of the danger he ahs to face'. As far as he > and the other two are concerned if he fails, he'll get expelled. That's it. > *none* of them seem to think that going after the Stone could get them > killed, the only mention of danger to life is when Harry's talking about > what'll happen if Voldemort actually gets the stone.>>> Harry is well aware of the dangers involved. He says "If I get caught before I can get to the Stone, well, I'll have to go back to the Dursleys and wait for Voldemort to find me there." Keyword is "before". Any number of professors could catch him before he could get to the stone and have him expelled. The fact that he is cogizant of the danger of being killed in the process is revealed in the next line "its only dying a bit later than I would have done." If he didn't think that he could be killed in the effort then why say that being expelled would only delay his death?. In fact it seems more like he expects to die rather than not considering it a possibilty. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pixieberry at harborside.com Sat Dec 20 18:32:52 2003 From: pixieberry at harborside.com (Krystol Berry) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 10:32:52 -0800 Subject: Did Lupin work as a professor before Hogwarts? References: <1071894567.5338.11644.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <00c801c3c727$b4bc5800$313a2d0c@D55NTV31> No: HPFGUIDX 87381 sbursztynski wrote: >Recently, I re-read POA and in the first scene where Lupin >appears, on the train, it describes his case as having "Professor >Lupin" on it in "peeling" letters. That suggests it's been there for >a while and as "Professor" seems to be the honorific for a teacher, >we have to assume he's done it before, some time ago - but when and >where? Pixieberry replies: Perhaps he got a position at a school in the muggle world? Nobody would suspect a werewolf there, and he could take a sick day when transformation time came. And we all know muggle teachers are fairly low on the pay scale, which would explain the shabby bag and robes! :) Pixieberry From atalante at poczta.onet.pl Sat Dec 20 18:54:59 2003 From: atalante at poczta.onet.pl (Melian) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 18:54:59 -0000 Subject: A Potterverse Survey Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87382 Hey :) This is a group in which many controversial and not-so-controversial topics concerning the Potterverse have been widely discussed. I understand that there can be as many opinions as there are members of this group, but still - a discussion is something that doesn't usually end up with some generall idea, we rarely get a general opinion and it's hard to tell whether we are in the majority or not really there yet :) After reading loads of posts /not only in this group/ some people got together and decided to make a kind of a survey, that will give us a general idea about the most common opinions among HP fans. The first questions are rather simple and not really original - favourite characters etc. But the more interesting sections are the 'opinions' (Do you agree with Dumbledore's reasoning at the end of OoP, did Harry do the right thing that night at the Shriecking Shack etc.) and predicitions for books 6 and 7. If you have a couple of minutes - please have a look. The link you can find below -- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thpsurvey/ Membership is open. The complete survey was put there today /20.12/. I understand that this is a kind of off topic post and hope that I won't be kicked out of here for it :) The survey is not that long, you can either post your opinions or choose some of the ready answers in the polls section. It's just the first project of that kind and the questions are those most widely discussed. If this project works out, maybe more questions will be added or more surveys conducted. All votes will be much appreciated by the HP Survey Crew. And before I end this post and am kicked out for posting survey links :D I would like to wish you all a most Merry Christmas, enchanted time with your friends and families, loads of luck, inspiration and dreams comming true in the New Year and a crazy, dance-all-night New Year's Eve party. Wishing you all te best, Mel -- /PortraitOfMrsBlack/ *who is screeching christmas carols at the top of her voice from her portrait, charmed to wear a St.Claus's costume by a member of the Order* -- and the rest of the HP Survey Crew From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sat Dec 20 19:11:48 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 14:11:48 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and bravery (was: The Sorting Hat) Message-ID: <111.2c5cd3c8.2d15f8f4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87383 In a message dated 12/19/2003 6:15:57 PM Central Standard Time, derek at rhinobunny.com writes: > But > I can see their point saying it's not his primary trait. To me, > bravery is *Ron's* primary trait. He constantly faces things that > frighten him. > > - Derek > When I've looked up brave or bravery it always refers back to courage: mental or moral strength to venture, persevere, and withstand danger, fear, or difficulty. Sounds like Harry to me. It also fits Hermione, Ron, Neville, Luna ect. There are just different ways of being brave. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 21 04:15:22 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 20:15:22 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and bravery (was: The Sorting Hat) References: <111.2c5cd3c8.2d15f8f4@aol.com> Message-ID: <000d01c3c779$0df90660$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87384 Someone who didn't give their name said - When I've looked up brave or bravery it always refers back to courage: > mental or moral strength to venture, persevere, and withstand danger, fear, or > difficulty. > > Sounds like Harry to me. It also fits Hermione, Ron, Neville, Luna ect. > There are just different ways of being brave. > K In order to actually exhibit bravery you have to understand that what you're doing is dangerous. If (for example) I know nothing about the dangers of the Forbidden Forest and I think it is perfectly safe and I go into it to find a lost child - that isn't bravery. If however I do exactly the same thing knowing that there are many things in there that would want to kill me - then that is. Most of the time Harry doesn't realise how dangerous what he's doing actually is - that's not bravery. Ron is terrified of spiders, but he follows Harry into the Forbidden Forest out of loyalty to Harry, to Hagrid, and to his friends who are in danger of being petrified. *That* is bravery. And it doesn't matter that he didn't know that he was likely to be eaten - he was scared but he faced his fear and did what he felt was right anyway. Ron is one of the best examples of bravery in the books. Neville is another. Bravery is not doing something dangerous, it is facing your fears and not letting them stop you. It is *knowing* the dangers and doing what is right or necessary anyway. I add that last bit because doing something dangerous just for the sake of doing something dangerous isn't brave it's reckless. K From pegruppel at yahoo.com Sat Dec 20 21:11:12 2003 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (Peggy) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 21:11:12 -0000 Subject: OOP:Favorite Lines... In-Reply-To: <1dd.c6048e1.2c276d65@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87385 These are all wonderful. My all-time favorite: "It unscrews the other way." McGonagall to Peeves. (I always thought McGonagall had a streak of the anarchist in her. Never knew why until now, though.) Peg From meriaugust at yahoo.com Sat Dec 20 21:18:46 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 21:18:46 -0000 Subject: OOP:Favorite Lines... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87386 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lynx412 at a... wrote: > > > > OK, so who has favorite lines already? And what are they? Fred and George: Give her Hell from us Peeves! That says it all. Meri From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Dec 20 22:14:25 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 22:14:25 -0000 Subject: OOP:Favorite Lines... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87387 Geoff: I think McGonagall is an absolute master at the put down, especially when it comes to Dolores Umbridge... "'Hem, hem,'said Professor Umbridge. 'Yes?' said Professor McGonagall, turning round, her eyebrows so close together they seemed to form one long, severe line. 'I was just wondering, Professor, whether you received my note telling you of the time and date of your inspec-' 'Obviously I received it or I would have asked you what you are doing in my classroom,'said Professor McGonagall, turning her back firmly on Professor Umbridge.............. 'Hem, hem' 'I wonder,' said Professor McGonagall in cold fury, turning on Professor Umbridge, 'how you expect to gain an idea of my usual teaching methods if you continue to interrupt me? You see, I do not generally permit people to talk when I am talking.'" ("The Hogwarts High Inquisitor" p.287 UK edition) "'May I offer you a cough drop, Dolores?' Professor McGonagall asked curtly, without looking at Professor Umbridge. 'Oh, no, thank you very much,' said Umbridge....... 'I just wondered whether I could make the teensiest interruption, Minerva?' 'I daresay you'll find you can,' said Professor McGonagall through gritted teeth." ("Careers Advice" p.584 UK edition) "'False hope?' repeated Professor McGonagall, still refusing to look round at Professor Umbridge, 'He has achieved high marks in all his Defence Against the Dark Arts tests -' 'I'm terribly sorry to have to contradict you, Minerva, but as you will see from my note, Harry has been achieving very poor results in his classes with me -' 'I should have made my meaning plainer,' said Professor McGonagall, turning at last to look Umbridge directly in the eyes. 'He has achieved high marks in all Defence Against the Dark Arts tests set by a competent teacher.'" (ditto p.585) Geoff From AllieS426 at aol.com Sat Dec 20 22:14:17 2003 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 22:14:17 -0000 Subject: Alternate Endings (was: Hows Harry going to learn...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87388 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > >Much to the surprise of everyone, Harry, the first person in history to ever do so, emerges from behind the Veil. Que the swelling music, hugs all around, jubilation and celebration, fade to black. > > And in the end, as in the beginning, Harry is once again, "The Boy Who Lived." :) I like it. Allie From AllieS426 at aol.com Sat Dec 20 23:01:45 2003 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 23:01:45 -0000 Subject: OOP:Favorite Lines... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87389 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "brassgryphon" wrote: > > > > > > OK, so who has favorite lines already? And what are they? > > > > > The funny ones are great, but I think my favorite was Professor Dumbledore to Harry (and this is a paraphrase): "You may wonder why I didn't make you a prefect, but I rather thought... that you had enough responsibility to be going on with." So poignant... I started to cry. Allie From rredordead at aol.com Sat Dec 20 23:16:16 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 23:16:16 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: <003201c3c6e2$182c70a0$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87390 > K wrote: > And on the subject of people grouping all the Slytherins together (which we are, but only sort of) if JKR doesn't give us anyone but Snape out of Slytherin house who isn't evil to the bone by the end of book seven the loud thump you hear will be me throwing my book across the room in disgust. She has a strong anti-prejudice theme, she has a strong theme of choice and individuality (Harry, Dobby etc) and yet she seems to be telling us you can write off 25% of the wizarding world's children at the age of 11! Mandy here: Hear hear! I'm eagerly looking forward to some other ex-Slytherin to show some other characteristic than evil. The obvious prejudice against Slytherin House has bothered me from the start. What we have seen of the house, and all it's members, has been so narrow, one-dimensional and sticks out like a sore thumb from the rest of the WW JKR has created. I'm crossing my fingers for one of the ex-Slytherins to turn out to be a spy for DD and the Order. There has to be another Order spy aside from Snape in the story somewhere. But we know so little about them it's hard to guess who that could be. Mandy, placing my bets on Narcissa Black Malfoy. From rredordead at aol.com Sat Dec 20 23:32:12 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 23:32:12 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: <002201c3c754$ec421580$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87391 > K wrote: > I'm not sure that you can use Imperius like that - after all we know that Umbridge was willing to use unforgivables at the school but she insisted she needed Veritaserum (which seems to be incredibly complicated and time consuming to brew) in order to get Harry to tell the truth. Mandy here: Umbridge use the unforgivable only when she felt she had no other option at that time. She had used the Veritaserum on Harry, or thought she had, and it appeared not to work. (I can't remember right now if Snape switched the tea or Harry carefully sipped it and avoided swallowing it.) Anyway Umbridge probably believed Harry was immune to it or something. Plus when she was about to inflict the Crucio on Harry she was surrounded by children and on some kind of perverted power trip. > K: Also the DEs would surely have used it on the Longbottoms rather than torture them for information - if a simple Imerio would have got the answer then they would have used that. Mandy again: No because the DE were thrown into confusion and chaos after the 'death' of LV. They wanted information quickly. The Imperio seems to me a complex spell that requires time and concentration to achieve positive results. Controlling someone's mind is probably as tricky as trying to read it using Ligitimens. Lucius could inflict it on, say, Percy as he has time to manipulate and hold the curse and Percy is not going anywhere. The Longbottoms were being held for information by a group of DE's on the run and desperate to find their Master ASAP! Imperio would be completely out of the question at that time. Mandy From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 21 08:02:55 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 00:02:55 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Sorting Hat References: Message-ID: <000701c3c798$d7407cf0$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87392 > > > K: > Also the DEs would surely have used it on the Longbottoms rather than > torture them for information - if a simple Imerio would have > got the answer then they would have used that. > > Mandy again: > No because the DE were thrown into confusion and chaos after > the 'death' of LV. They wanted information quickly. The Imperio > seems to me a complex spell that requires time and concentration to > achieve positive results. Controlling someone's mind is probably as > tricky as trying to read it using Ligitimens. Lucius could inflict > it on, say, Percy as he has time to manipulate and hold the curse and > Percy is not going anywhere. The Longbottoms were being held for > information by a group of DE's on the run and desperate to find their > Master ASAP! Imperio would be completely out of the question at that > time. > K I don't think Imperio is supposed to be any more complicated than Crucio which is what we've been led to believe they actually used - and for a prolonged period of time what is more. I guess we could explain the development of a potion as complicated as Veritaserum by saying that it was invented when Imperio was made illegal - because if you could simply use Imperio to compel your victim to tell the truth I can't see why anyone would develop a potion as difficult and time consuming as veritaserum. Anyway if you're right that Imperio wouldn't allow them to get information *quickly* then that helps my point since Kneasy was saying that Voldemort could have used Imperio on Sirius and speedily got the information that Peter was the Secret Keeper whereas I was arguing that Peter and the Potters would have the time between Sirius being captured and him breaking under torture in which to try plan B (Plan A being the Secret Keeper switch thing). K From greatraven at hotmail.com Sun Dec 21 01:14:00 2003 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 01:14:00 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87393 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > > K wrote: > > And on the subject of people grouping all the Slytherins together > (which we are, but only sort of) if JKR doesn't give us anyone but > Snape out of Slytherin house who isn't evil to the bone by the end of > book seven the loud thump you hear will be me throwing my book across > the room in disgust. She has a strong anti-prejudice theme, she has a > strong theme of choice and individuality (Harry, Dobby etc) and yet > she seems to be telling us you can write off 25% of the wizarding > world's children at the age of 11! Sue here: Very true ... but, aha! Think how nearly *Harry* was to being sorted into Slytherin! (g). What if he hadn't met Ron on the train and got his side of the story? No doubt he'd have been an unhappy Slytherin, but if the Hat could sort him into that house, maybe there are some other perfectly nice Slytherins? Besides, there's a definite house rivalry at work. Among the teachers, it's friendly, but kids take things so seriously. Even poor Cedric Diggory is sneered at by Griyffindors for having the nerve to be a good Quidditch player and in a rival team. But it makes everyone feel good to gang up on Slytherin, whatever their own rivalries. From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 21 09:48:21 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 01:48:21 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Sorting Hat References: Message-ID: <001301c3c7a7$920f7be0$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87394 > Sue here: > > Very true ... but, aha! Think how nearly *Harry* was to being sorted > into Slytherin! (g). What if he hadn't met Ron on the train and got > his side of the story? No doubt he'd have been an unhappy Slytherin, > but if the Hat could sort him into that house, maybe there are some > other perfectly nice Slytherins? Besides, there's a definite house > rivalry at work. Among the teachers, it's friendly, but kids take > things so seriously. Even poor Cedric Diggory is sneered at by > Griyffindors for having the nerve to be a good Quidditch player and > in a rival team. But it makes everyone feel good to gang up on > Slytherin, whatever their own rivalries. > K But even that backs up the idea of all Slytherins are evil because when Harry was wondering if he should have been a Slytherin like Voldemort Dumbledore emphasised that it was his choice that made him different. Which seems to have the surface meaning that he chose to be a (good) Gryffindor instead of an (evil) Slytherin - I'm hoping she's going to show us that your House allegiance is irrelevant when it comes to your choices about good and evil and we can then see that statement in a totally different light (like when Dumbledore told Harry that his relationship with Draco was much like James and Severus - why yes it was but James was the arrogant little twerp, not Severus!). I don't like the way the other houses look at Slytherin - teenagers after all are not prone to making rational decisions and I think Slytherin teenagers who might not fully embrace the DE way of life (like Regulus maybe, or Severus) will think, 'well damn if everyone's going to assume I'm evil I might as well actually join them' - I realise that actually the prejudice is a lot more pronounced amongst the kids rather than the ww in general, but when you're a teenager the other kids are 'everyone' as far as you're concerned. I wonder how much of the Slytherin's self identity comes from what other people think of them. Draco seems to measure himself against Harry - you can't associate with both you have to choose a side, Harry is Gryffindor, Draco Slytherin, Harry is a seeker so Draco must try and be better etc. When it comes to the struggle between Voldemort and the OotP Harry is the 'champion' of the light, to achieve the same status and not let Harry 'beat' him Draco *must* become a champion for the Death Eaters. A lot of Draco's actions seem to have stemmed from his first two meetings with Harry where Harry rejected him and his views. I wonder if Draco even *has* a way of defining himself that doesn't involve Harry or Lucius - everything he does is aimed at emulating one and competing with the other. Oh hell, I'm beginning to feel sorry for the little prat - I'm trying to understand him, not sympathise with him, please don't take anything I've said as meaning that I think Draco is anything but an arrogant, annoying berk who doesn't even have the presence to be a 'decent' nemesis for our 'hero'. K From na26bcp at yahoo.com Sat Dec 20 19:47:52 2003 From: na26bcp at yahoo.com (na26bcp) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 19:47:52 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87395 Kneasy: > The only way Sirius could avoid all this is to hide in a deep dark hole and > not let anyone know where he is and he could do that without involving Peter. > With the Imperius curse the idea of bravely holding out becomes impossible. You don't remember Voldemort putting the curse on Harry at the end of GoF and telling him to kneel? As I recall, Harry did quite a lot of "bravely holding out" against that particular curse. As special as he is, I doubt he is the only one in the wizarding world who can do this... Sirius is smart, he undoubtedly realized the danger inherent in his knowing that Pettigrew was the Secret Keeper. Knowing this danger, and being one of the strongest wizards around (Animagus, Marauder, etc), he probably did think he could fight off Voldemort's Imperius. Why assume that he'd automatically give in and tell Voldy everything? ~Adele~ From abbet659 at hotmail.com Sat Dec 20 19:55:11 2003 From: abbet659 at hotmail.com (abbet659 at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 19:55:11 -0000 Subject: Worse for Voldmort: Harry blood or Wormtaill's flesh Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87396 Sorry if this has been brought up already. So anyways at the end of PoA Dumbledore tells Harry that Wormtail's in his debt and that he might be glad that he saved Wormtail's life. So the look of triumph in Dumbledore's eye in GoF could be because the flesh of Voldemort's servent is in debt to the blood of a enemy. I think the look in Dumbledore's eye has at least as much, if not more to do with the fact Voldemort used Wormtail and not as much to do with using Harry. Abbet From tim at marvinhold.com Sat Dec 20 20:21:22 2003 From: tim at marvinhold.com (Tim) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 20:21:22 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Mirror In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87397 Stephanie Writes: > Didn't Harry smash it into a million pieces when it didn't work? I > think what is shows is that Harry is still young. He was hotheaded > and didn't think of all ways of communication. (Sirius had clearly > told Harry to use it is he needed to get intouch with him.) It's a > really harsh lesson to learn, but I'm sure he won't forget it. (Just > like you said Tim) He did smash the mirror. Earlier in the book he accidently broke the bowl with the Murlap (?) essance in which he was soaking his hand after a detention. He easily repaired the bowl but the essance was gone. Perhaps this is the same. However, if I break a mirror I then have 2 or more (smaller) mirrors. Makes me wonder. Tim From bacquet at tco.net Sat Dec 20 21:56:45 2003 From: bacquet at tco.net (Karen Bacquet) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 21:56:45 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Greatest Fear Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87398 Hello! I'm a new member of the group, and so forgive me if this topic has already been well-covered. I can barely keep up with *current* discussions, much less past ones -- but I haven't seen it talked about in any of the HP sites I've visited. In PoA, chapter seven, all the students in Lupin's DADA class have a turn at facing the boggart -- except two: Harry and Hermione. We know, of course, the reason Lupin doesn't give Harry a turn is because he assumes that his greatest fear is Voldemort, and doesn't think his image appearing in the classroom would be a good idea. But we aren't given any explanation as to why Hermione isn't given a turn, although Ron tartly suggests that the boggart would have turned into "a piece of homework that only got a nine instead of a ten." So, what is Hermione's greatest fear, and why wouldn't Lupin allow that to materialize in the classroom? How would he know what her greatest fear is? Does it have something to do with her having figured out that Lupin is a werewolf? (But I don't think Lupin knows that until later in the book.) Thought? Ideas? Karen From cristina at prodigy.net Sun Dec 21 04:02:59 2003 From: cristina at prodigy.net (crisagi1) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 04:02:59 -0000 Subject: Neville's talent now revealed in the next book? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87399 Is it just me or did anyone else catch the fact that Neville has been using his dad's wand for the past five years? We all read what happend with Harry when he went to Olivander's to choose his wand. We know that wizards/witched can use each other's wands in emergencies, but what about all the time? Maybe the reason why Neville has been doing so poorly thus far is because he never had a "wand choose him". His ego of course by now is pretty much shot, but what if now when he get's his own wand, his powers channel more effectively. Would it be enough to get his self esteem up? More on equal footing with the others? What do you think of the theory? Crissy From cristina at prodigy.net Sun Dec 21 04:11:00 2003 From: cristina at prodigy.net (crisagi1) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 04:11:00 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Greatest Fear In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87400 > > So, what is Hermione's greatest fear, and why wouldn't Lupin allow > that to materialize in the classroom? How would he know what her > greatest fear is? Does it have something to do with her having > figured out that Lupin is a werewolf? (But I don't think Lupin knows > that until later in the book.) Actually Hermione tells everyone at the Shrieking Shack that she realized Lupin was a werewolf after she wrote the essay for Snape on the creatures. Also, during her final examination, she had to face a boggart and it turned into Prof. Mcgonnagal telling her she failed her subjects. I don't think that Lupin purposefully didn't want her to face the boggart. It was heading straight for Harry and he didn't want the class to see Voldermort. It was just that a coincidence that she was farther from the creature than Harry. There is also the theory that Ron is a seer. Ron makes lots of jokes that later on turn out to be true. You can research them in other posts. This might have been another one of JKR's red herrings. Crissy From hieya at hotmail.com Sun Dec 21 05:32:09 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 05:32:09 -0000 Subject: Neville's talent now revealed in the next book?, Neville stuff in general In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87401 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "crisagi1" wrote: > Is it just me or did anyone else catch the fact that Neville has > been using his dad's wand for the past five years? We all read what > happend with Harry when he went to Olivander's to choose his wand. > We know that wizards/witched can use each other's wands in > emergencies, but what about all the time? Maybe the reason why > Neville has been doing so poorly thus far is because he never had > a "wand choose him". His ego of course by now is pretty much shot, > but what if now when he get's his own wand, his powers channel more > effectively. Would it be enough to get his self esteem up? More on > equal footing with the others? What do you think of the theory? > > Crissy Crissy, I think you've made a good point. Neville's family is so caught up in the past, that they are often at a loss with him. Neville's grandmother doesn't understand him, I'm afraid. But not in the same way that the Dursleys don't understand Harry. The Dursleys think Harry is weird, while Mrs. Longbottom thinks that something is wrong with Neville because he is not like his father Frank. I think that JKR did a good thing for the quality of the books by portraying a family like the Longbottoms, who are neither as "perfect" as the Weasleys nor as bad as the Blacks. Instead, they are good, loving people who just don't understand what a child needs. This is a difficult situation for Neville, for he cannot simply escape like Sirius did and the way Harry does at the end of every summer. Neville cannot simply sever ties with people he loves. And I have no doubt that Neville's grandmother loves him (JKR has carefully shown this at all times) but she cannot relate to him. This includes the little things, like Neville's great-uncle buying him a toad (and Hagrid had told Harry that toads were not cool). By giving him Frank's wand, I think that the grandmother wanted him to carry on the family tradition. But, in the final books, I think Neville will assert himself, and prove that he is more than Frank's son. I think his grandmother will recognize his gifts and change her attitude. Harry has never had to live in his parents' shadow, (we know next to nothing about Lily, and we all know that Harry is better than James anyday ;) ) so his self-confidence hasn't been shattered by unrealistic expectations. Neville has had to live with stories of his parents, I'm guessing. His image of them must be glorified in the same way that Harry's image of James was prior to "Snape's Worst Memory". As Neville moves away from the past, I think he will be a much better wizard. greatlit2003 can't wait to learn more about Trevor the toad From hieya at hotmail.com Sun Dec 21 05:54:51 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 05:54:51 -0000 Subject: Harry's new guardian/mentor? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87402 Who will be Harry's new guardian? I don't mean an official guardian, but basically someone he can turn to. I wasn't satisfied with the end scene of OotP. I just don't imagine Mad-Eye or Tonks taking on an important, protective role in Harry's life. We barely know these characters. I know it is impossible to replace Sirius, and perhaps for the plot it is necessary to push Harry to independence. But I just can't imagine him transformed from mourning teenager to Voldie killer without some form of guidance. Here are some of the possibilities: 1. Lupin---my favorite choice. He is Harry's only remaining connection with James. I was always surprised that Harry did not grow closer to Lupin. I had hoped they would keep in touch at least in GoF, like the way Hagrid writes to Harry during the holidays. I guess JKR didn't want to create "competition" for Sirius. Sirius's death was more poignant because he became the single most important adult in Harry's life, pushing everyone else to the back. I hope that Lupin will come forward now to take care of Harry. I would be most disappointed if he became a minor character on par with Moody and Tonks. 2. Molly and Arthur---an obvious choice, since they clearly want to take care of Harry. I just wonder how Harry will feel about Molly, since she used to fight with Sirius so often? 3. Snape----no, not as a guardian (though I would be amused if Snape filled Sirius's place in Harry's life). I think that Snape will be the one who teaches Harry how to fight Voldemort. They may never be friends, but Harry and Snape will have some important connection. 4. Unknown friend of Lily---I do want to learn more about Harry's mother. She barely has a personality, and seems to exist to be: a. James' love interest b. the pretty woman with red hair and Harry's green eyes c. the woman who died to save Harry greatlit2003 hoping that Lily had a great time at Hogwarts too, one to rival James's adventures From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Dec 21 11:41:32 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 11:41:32 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: <000701c3c798$d7407cf0$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87403 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > > Anyway if you're right that Imperio wouldn't allow them to get information > *quickly* then that helps my point since Kneasy was saying that Voldemort > could have used Imperio on Sirius and speedily got the information that > Peter was the Secret Keeper whereas I was arguing that Peter and the Potters > would have the time between Sirius being captured and him breaking under > torture in which to try plan B (Plan A being the Secret Keeper switch > thing). > Just to throw another possibility into the fray (and hopefully add a bit more backbone to my argument), don't forget Voldy is a practiced Legilimens. He knows when someone is lying to him (remember the showdown at the climax of PS/SS?). Given his array of interrogation tools I can't see Sirius holding out for long. Kneasy From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 21 20:57:52 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 12:57:52 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Sorting Hat References: Message-ID: <002e01c3c805$19fe3e30$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87404 Kneasy > > Just to throw another possibility into the fray (and hopefully add a bit more > backbone to my argument), don't forget Voldy is a practiced Legilimens. > He knows when someone is lying to him (remember the showdown at the > climax of PS/SS?). > > Given his array of interrogation tools I can't see Sirius holding out for long. > > K Ah but knowing someone is lying and finding out exactly what the truth is are different things. I was assuming that the DEs would *expect* Sirius to be lying as a matter of course. K From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Dec 21 13:17:05 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 13:17:05 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87405 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: Mandy: > Umbridge use the unforgivable only when she felt she had no other > option at that time. She had used the Veritaserum on Harry, or > thought she had, and it appeared not to work. (I can't remember > right now if Snape switched the tea or Harry carefully sipped it and > avoided swallowing it.) Anyway Umbridge probably believed Harry was > immune to it or something. Plus when she was about to inflict the > Crucio on Harry she was surrounded by children and on some kind of > perverted power trip. Geoff: The Veritaserum episode failed for two reasons. "'What's the matter?' said Umbridge who was still watching him closely, 'Do you want sugar?' 'No,'said Harry. He raised the cup to his lips again and pretended to take a sip, though keeping his mouth tightly closed. Umbridge's smile widened." (OOTP "Snape's worst memory" p.555 UK edition) "BOOM! The very floor of the office shook. Umbridge slipped sideways, clutching her desk for support and looking shocked. 'What was - ' She was gazing towards the door. Harry took the opportunity to empty his almost-full cup of tea into the nearest vase of dried flowers..." and in addition.... (ditto p.556) "'It was he, (Snape) too, who gave Professor Umbridge /fake/ Veritaserum when she was attempting to force you to tell her Sirius's whereabouts.'" (my emphasis) (OOTP "The Lost Prophecy" p.734 UK edition) Geoff From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Dec 21 14:20:21 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:20:21 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: <002e01c3c805$19fe3e30$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87406 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: K > > Ah but knowing someone is lying and finding out exactly what the truth is > are different things. I was assuming that the DEs would *expect* Sirius to > be lying as a matter of course. > I'm starting to get the impression that you're edging towards the view that Sirius is the equal of Voldy in magical power. That he can withstand, even temporarily, the force of Voldy's will. If so, can you substantiate it? Sirius is a pretty ordinary wizard; true he has mastered the Animagus spell, but taking Peter as a guide, all that needs is practice not power. There is no evidence that he practiced guarding against an Unspeakable or a Legilimens or that he had the power to achieve resistance successfully. Voldy on the other hand only recognises DD as his equal as a wizard. Malfoy has lesser powers, but even he could force an Unspeakable (Bode) to attempt the theft of the Prophecy against his will with an Imperius curse. We are told that he fought hard against it but had to submit. What then can Voldy do to comply obedience and submission? Pointing a wand is not like pointing a gun where the result is the same no matter who pulls the trigger; magical force depends entirely on the personality directing it. Sirius would be washed, wrung and hung out to dry in no time. Canon tells us that during his first rise to power many wizards and witches claimed that they had been cursed to force them to act the way they did and that it was incredibly difficult to decide if they were cursed or if they were acting of their own volition. Would Sirius be any different if Voldy had got hold of him or if he had ordered him to find and kill the Potters? Don't think so, somehow. Besides, I don't think Sirius is a real 'goodie' anyway. That's why he had to die. Kneasy From meriaugust at yahoo.com Sun Dec 21 14:48:34 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:48:34 -0000 Subject: Neville's family Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87407 I was just rereading my copy of SS (I am on vacation now and can thankfully read whatewver I want!) and I came across this line in the Sorting Hat chapeter, page 125, American edition where all the new Gryffindors are talking about their families. "Well, my gran brought me up, and she's a witch," said Neville, "but the family thought I was all Muggle for ages." Neville then goes on to describe the Blackpool Pier incident and how he almost drowned. My question is this: why would the Longbottoms think that Neville was all Muggle? Was his mother from a Muggle family? Or are the Longbottoms not all wizards and witches as I thought? I always assumed that the Longbottoms were an old wizarding family (ala the Weaslys and the Malfoys) but maybe Gran and Frank were the only ones to have any magical powers. Maybe that's why the majority of the Longbottom family emerged unscathed from the first war: they weren't magical enough for LV to care about killing them. Any thoughts? Meri From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Dec 21 15:16:35 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 15:16:35 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore (was: The Sorting Hat) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87408 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > > Trusting, innocent? Oho no, I'm not, I'm a bit more streetwise than > that. Remember I speak as an ex-teacher who had a fair amount of > administrative experience and clout. snip > When I took early > retirement, four of my colleagues also did at the same time because > we were tired of climbing a paper mountain and getting diverted from > the task of teaching which is why we were in the profession. > Kneasy: Not quite the point I was making; you were valiantly trying to cope with a Ministry from the outsiders position. You weren't one of the bastards in there making all the rules that folk like you had to comply with. Umbridge was an insider, Trelawney and McGonagall weren't. There's a big difference. Bureaucrats like her see any resistance to the accepted doctrine as a threat to the system and to them personally as an upholder of it. Hence the anti-Harry stance. To admit that he is correct would be professionally devastating. Now she may or may not be pro-Voldy, that is largely irrelevant in the circumstances; the Ministry had made a policy decision - it must be defended no matter what the cost. This is the defining function of a bureacracy; to protect itself against outsiders and to expand its power and influence if possible - this way lies promotion and glory. Be associated with a failed policy and your career is blighted - perhaps for ever. Hence the proliferation of factions within these beasts; it's a war of manoeuvre where even the losers get to collect a pension. Geoff: > Pen-pushing or not, Fudge managed to keep the return of Voldemort > under wraps for a year by keeping Dumbledore sidelined and by trying > to boot Harry out of Hogwarts and started this by arranging the > destruction of Barty Crouch. Kneasy: Not quite. He managed to discredit Harry and DD but the word was still spreading. When you say that someone is talking rubbish you have to specify what they are totally wrong about. Sure, it raised doubts in the mind of the wizard-in-the-street when a united front would have been better, but mostly he was telling people what they wanted to hear. Note also that DD didn't seem particularly bothered by it once he knew what stance Fudge was going to take. He had his own network of wizards that he trusted and Fudge and the Ministry he treated as minor irritations. Geoff: > Hypothetical question. What would Devious!Dumbledore as you term him > have done in a similar position? Kneasy: Good question. What could he have done? Could he trust the people in the Ministry? No, IMO. He'd probably tell the truth about Voldy returning and then waste enormous amounts of time and effort calming the ensuing panic - if, that is, friends of Voldy didn't discredit him anyway. They'd certainly try to and the public wouldn't want to believe him - proof would be demanded and what proof existed? None except for the story Harry brings back from the graveyard. I don't see that he could do anything really useful as Minister except be a figure-head. Much more effective if he beavers away at Hogwarts and with the Order. Kneasy From rredordead at aol.com Sun Dec 21 15:26:17 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 15:26:17 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87409 Kneasy wrote: > Just to throw another possibility into the fray (and hopefully add a bit more > backbone to my argument), don't forget Voldy is a practiced Legilimens. > He knows when someone is lying to him (remember the showdown at the > climax of PS/SS?). > > Given his array of interrogation tools I can't see Sirius holding out for long. > > Mandy here: I don't think you are giving the Order justice. I know your talking about Sirius (who I do agree was a very selfish man) but he was a member of the Order of the Phoenix during the 1st WW war. An organized resistance movement whose members would have been trained in dealing with capture and torture. Members were being picked of one-by-one and the rest would have had to protect and arm themselves anyway they could. They would have been down right stupid not to learn Occulmency, Imperio Resistance, some method to hide from the pain of the Crucio, at least for a while. Long enough to offer some sort of protection to the rest of the Order. It could explain why the Longbottoms held out for so long and went insane, if they were using some for of resistance against the Crucio with destroyed their brains. It could also explain why both Sirius and Lupin were adamant about Harry continuing to study Occulmency with Snape in OotP. They themselves having studied it for protection years before. I don't think Sirius would have held out for long against LV power, nowone could, but long enough to support K's argument I think. Mandy From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Dec 21 16:02:19 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 21 Dec 2003 16:02:19 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1072022539.42.68900.m15@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87410 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, December 21, 2003 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CST (GMT-06:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. *Chat times are not changing for Daylight Saving/Summer Time.* Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Dec 21 16:04:58 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 16:04:58 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87411 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > > It could explain why the Longbottoms held out for so long and went > insane, if they were using some for of resistance against the Crucio > with destroyed their brains. > You may be right in your main argument, but the Longbottoms didn't hold out. They were asked a question "What has happened to Voldemort?" that they didn't have an answer for. They just didn't know. Bella preferred not to believe them. Kneasy From hieya at hotmail.com Sun Dec 21 16:51:24 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 16:51:24 -0000 Subject: Neville's family In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87412 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > I was just rereading my copy of SS (I am on vacation now and can > thankfully read whatewver I want!) and I came across this line in > the Sorting Hat chapeter, page 125, American edition where all the > new Gryffindors are talking about their families. "Well, my gran > brought me up, and she's a witch," said Neville, "but the family > thought I was all Muggle for ages." Neville then goes on to describe > the Blackpool Pier incident and how he almost drowned. My question > is this: why would the Longbottoms think that Neville was all > Muggle? Was his mother from a Muggle family? Or are the Longbottoms > not all wizards and witches as I thought? I always assumed that the > Longbottoms were an old wizarding family (ala the Weaslys and the > Malfoys) but maybe Gran and Frank were the only ones to have any > magical powers. Maybe that's why the majority of the Longbottom > family emerged unscathed from the first war: they weren't magical > enough for LV to care about killing them. Any thoughts? > Meri Neville is a pure-blood, so his mother and father would have to be from wizarding families. I'm not sure what the exact definition of pure-blood is, but I'm assuming that both sides of the person's family would have to be all magical for several generations. Harry's parents are both magical, but he is still considered a half-blood because his mother's family were Muggles. I think Neville's family thought he was a Squib, but JKR did not want to introduce that term in the first book because it would get too complicated for the reader. greatlit2003 From kcawte at ntlworld.com Mon Dec 22 01:32:20 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 17:32:20 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Sorting Hat References: Message-ID: <001001c3c82b$718052d0$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87413 Kneasy > > I'm starting to get the impression that you're edging towards the view that > Sirius is the equal of Voldy in magical power. That he can withstand, even > temporarily, the force of Voldy's will. If so, can you substantiate it? > K No that's not at all what I'm saying - although we've not got any empirical evidence that Voldemort is much more *powerful* than other wizards - more *skilled* definitely (leglimancy, parseltongue etc). More evil - yep I'll give you that too. We don't actually know how difficult the spells he's used to try and gain immortality are, they don't seem to give you the kind of immortaliy most people would really want (so far he's been a disembodied spirit inhabiting someone else's body and having to drink unicorn blood - which to wizards seems the equivalent of saying you can live for ever but you have to go around killing babies - and then when he got a body, well he doesn't seem to be exactly human any more. And the diary idea can't be totally unheard of or Harry would have had more trouble being believed so the fact he's using them and others aren't again doesn't show he's especially powerful. The reason he's supposed to be so all powerful is because he's so darn scary - and a lot of that fear comes from the fact that *anyone* could be a DE and could appear at any time and attack. He controls peole through fear and, presumably, vicous punishments, not because he's so much more powerful. But that wasa total diversion from what I meant to say which was a) I don't believe Sirius is as powerful as Voldemort (or at least I didn't before the above diversion, now I'm wondering exactly how magically powerful Voldemort is) b) I still doubt you can use Imperius like that and c) will and power are different things and we do know that Sirius is a determined and stubborn person, which may well mean he's very good at fighting off the Imperius. (Maybe he's even had ractice bearing in mind what his family are like) K From abbet659 at hotmail.com Sun Dec 21 10:40:10 2003 From: abbet659 at hotmail.com (abbet659 at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 10:40:10 -0000 Subject: Neville's talent now revealed in the next book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87414 Crissy wrote: > Is it just me or did anyone else catch the fact that Neville > has been using his dad's wand for the past five years? We > all read what happend with Harry when he went to Olivander's > to choose his wand. > We know that wizards/witches can use each other's wands in > emergencies, but what about all the time? Maybe the reason > why Neville has been doing so poorly thus far is because he > never had a "wand choose him". I think you have some good points but I disagree. I think Neville will continue to get better, but I think it will have little to do with a new wand. I think that when Harry walked in to get his wand, there was only one wand for him. Ollivander seems to have quite a hard time finding the right wand for Harry, but I think that when most WW come in there's probably a couple wands that would suit them. Other than the fact that the Harry was meant to have his wand, I think he could have used either of his parents wands fairly well. Ron only had trouble with his brother's wand after it broke, seems the next best wand to picking out one would be a family member. Abbet From helenhorsley at hotmail.com Sun Dec 21 14:40:09 2003 From: helenhorsley at hotmail.com (dorapye) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:40:09 -0000 Subject: OOP:Favorite Lines... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87415 Geoff wrote: > Geoff: > I think McGonagall is an absolute master at the put down, > especially when it comes to Dolores Umbridge... dorapye: Yes, I love McGonagall's rebuffs to Umbridge - hurrah for McGonagall! One of my favourite McGonagall lines, though, is not *to* Umbridge but *about* her, when she is explaining to the kids about their OWLs: OotP p 625 (UK Edition): "....'Our new - Headmistress -' Professor McGonagall pronounced the word with the same look on her face that Aunt Petunia had whenever contemplating a bit of stubborn dirt '- has asked the Heads of Houses to tell their students that cheating will be punished severely - because, of course, your examination results will reflect upon the Headmistress's new regime at the school -' Professor McGonagall gave a tiny sigh; Harry saw the nostrils of her sharp nose flare. '-however, that is no reason for you not to do your very best. You have your own futures to think about.'" I love that 'tiny sigh' and that purposeful 'however'. The line I find funniest in OotP though comes from Ernie MacMillan, when discussing exam revision, with Ron, of all people: OotP p623 (Uk Edition) "'How many hours d'you think you're doing a day?' he demanded of Harry and Ron as they queued outside Herbology, a manic gleam in his eyes. 'I dunno,' said Ron. 'A few.' 'More or less than eight?' 'Less, I s'pose,' said Ron, looking slightly alarmed..." And the line that makes me cry? When Harry says to Dumbledore that Aunt Petunia doesn't love him, and of course, this is no great earth shattering fact, and we've known that Harry must have known this for years, but still, to hear a child or young person say, so baldly, so irrefutably, so matter-of-factly, that their 'parent' does not love them...it breaks my heart. Just my faves, anyway. dorapye From megalynn44 at hotmail.com Sun Dec 21 18:57:44 2003 From: megalynn44 at hotmail.com (megalynn44) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 18:57:44 -0000 Subject: OOP:Favorite Lines... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87416 My favorite line has to be when Phineus nigelus, just after Dumbledore makes his fantastic exit, says to Fudge "You know, MInister, "I disagree with Dumbledore on many counts..... but you cannot deny he's got style" It was just the best ending of a chapter ever! ~Megs From nicholas at adelanta.co.uk Sun Dec 21 18:14:37 2003 From: nicholas at adelanta.co.uk (nicholas at adelanta.co.uk) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 19:14:37 +0100 Subject: Harry and the Veil Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87417 Steve said (snipping fore and aft) >Harry and Voldemort walk through the Veil. Voldemort is immediately >set upon by the people he has killed. Harry on the other hand is met >by James, Lily, and Sirius who are very happy to see him, but tell him >he can not stay. Although Harry resists at first, they convince him >that it is not his time, and he has a long, valuable, and rewarding >life that must be lived out. They also remind him of all the people >who love him, who are waiting for him in the mortal world. The sounds >of the lamentations of his beloved friends convinces Harry that he >must go back. > >Much to the surprise of everyone, Harry, the first person in history >to ever do so, emerges from behind the Veil. Que the swelling music, >hugs all around, jubilation and celebration, fade to black. Ever since the Veil made its appearance in OoP, I have thought that at some stage Harry will go through it, possibly in ensuring that Voldemort goes. Then, either your scenario will kick in, or there will be Deep Magic From Before The Dawn Of Time (ok, ok, I know that's not JKR) which says that if someone goes through the Veil Voluntarily and for a Great Cause, then he can come back. Or Harry may go through after certain preparations...remember what Snape said he could do with his potions in PS/SS ...'even stopper death'. I've often wondered about that. Another possible scenario; to conquer Voldemort, Harry needs certain information which only Sirius/James and Lily/Dumbledore if he dies/ has. Harry will take Sirius's mirror with him in order to get the info back to the other side and we all expect him to stay Dead...but the Deep Magic scenario then kicks in and he does come back after all. Cheers, Nicholas who doesn't think Harry will be dead at the end. From lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com Sun Dec 21 19:19:54 2003 From: lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com (lindseyharrisst) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 19:19:54 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87418 Hi! Have n't posted in a while so I thought I'd spend my vacation from college catching up on posts, lol. I am inclined to agree with the comment put forward by Dumbledore in the books that it's our choices that make us what we are. Harry has characteristics of ambition and so forth that would make him a good slytherin according to the hat, but he did not want to let them become the dominant factors in his personality so they have n't - free will rightly reigns supreme!Can you honestly see him as a slytherin now? He can't interact with people like the pupils we know are in Slytherin. He needs genuine friendship too much in order to act. He has trained himself to look for approval of people he knows to be wise(Hermione) and morally reasonable(Ron) to do things and he can still be swayed by guilt (Lupin's comment in POA about letting down his parents memories by sneaking out). As for the hat being influenced by Dumbledore, I am not certain that that could even theoretically happen since in GOF the "decision" of the goblet was unalterable by Dumbledore once it picked Harry as a forth champion. You might say, well it was altered by someone prior to it throwing out Harry's name, so what's unreasonable about Dumbledore altering the hat? But in answer to that, I think that where the decision is made by the hat in conjunction with the person who is the subject of the decision then it can it is almost like a contract and can only stand if the two parties (hat and person) agree. In the case of other people who state no preference,the hat takes it as meaning that they have given the hat an option on any of the choices. Sometimes contracts have a provision allowing one of the parties to chose how something will be done, a bilateral agreement that one party wil make a unilateral decision the other will accept. (Sorry if that sounds complicated. I just want to express it clearly so I don't get replies that miss the point, which would be my fault, lol). A third party could not, I don't think, just wander over and interfere, since it all works on consent (see Dumbledore's comment above). The hat is not a person, but is endowed with the personality of the founders and their reasoning, unlike the goblet, which is n't endowed with any capacity for thought, but is just like a lotto number picking machine, IMO. The hat, unlike the goblet would detect a breaking of it's own rules and object. It's not that the hat has free will completely, but that it ab;le to make choices within limited means, like a child computer can amke decisions but only if the programme allows it to consider the question because the programmer made it make sense to the programme. Hope that's clear! To address the question of whether, assuming dumbledore can infulence that hat, he deliberatley did so in firstly, the marauders case and then Harry's: Let's take James's generation first - I see where previous posters are coming form saying thta Lupin needed James, sirius and pettigrew (at the time) to protect him. I think lupin is genuinely deserving of Gryffindor as he has been brave about his condition, rather than really belonging to Hufflepuff due to his follow-the-leader-tendencies, as has been suggested. Surius is brave for defying his family and turning out a difeerent way. True, he kept some of the hot-headedness of Slythein, but he just has that in his personality, like being blonde is soemthing one just IS, but he directs it towards the Gryffindor aims of bravery in the cause of right. James too, though we don't know much about him, we can assume he was like his son, we are told this often enough. As for Pettigrew - well, I am stuck here, I confess. Heaven knows why hye ended up in Gryffindor. I can come up with a *VERY* weak argument that perhaps he was just more obviously wrong for all the others at the time. He was n't clever. Though meek, he was n't loyal enough for Hufflepuff, he sheltered in the comany of the others and then went to LV to shelter under his stronger protection. Not sure why not slytherin though. Can anyone help? The fact that 3 out of the 4 have good reasons for independently deserving to be put in Gryffindor adds weight to my point though. Now consider Harry's generation - Hermione is cleverest but in line with my "consent theory" it is not the trait that she values most. No, it really is n't! I forget when (not having hte books to hand) but she does say something about "what good are books and cleverness if you can't be there for your friends" (paraphrasing). Ron is actualy brave. It's not that he does n't fear things, but that he does things anyway, which is actually the greatest type of bravery. We can all pick something that most of our friends are scared of and we're not and do it in front of them for the applause, but that's not what it's about. Neviile is brave in just coping with life as a virtual orphan who struggles so much. We are now seeing more outward signs of bravery, but he's just rising to the challenge as he really always has done. That's it! *phew* Feedback would be much appreciated , lol Merry Christmas to all list members, if paths don't cross nearer the time. xxx Snapesangel From lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com Sun Dec 21 19:33:28 2003 From: lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com (lindseyharrisst) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 19:33:28 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Greatest Fear In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87419 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "crisagi1" wrote: > > > > > So, what is Hermione's greatest fear, and why wouldn't Lupin allow > > that to materialize in the classroom? How would he know what her > > greatest fear is? Does it have something to do with her having > > figured out that Lupin is a werewolf? (But I don't think Lupin > knows > > that until later in the book.) > Crissy said ; during her final examination, she had to face a boggart and it > turned into Prof. Mcgonnagal telling her she failed her subjects. > I don't think that Lupin purposefully didn't want her to face the > boggart. Sorry if this seems a flippant post as it's so short, but I always thought the only reason she did n't get to tackle the boggart was that she answered the question about what one was at the beginning of class (I think). Lupin was just giving everyone a chance to participate in the class somehow, typical teacherly tactic to see who cooperates by answering the first question and then make sure the rest of the class participates so one child does n't hog all the lesson time and the others can be assessed, rather than letting them avoid it. It might be a sort of incentive - if you volunteer something once you get left alone, so if you know the answer it's the safest tactic. In addition, when Lavender and Parvati did see the moon-boggart they thought it was a crystal ball. Snapesangel From lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com Sun Dec 21 19:40:13 2003 From: lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com (lindseyharrisst) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 19:40:13 -0000 Subject: OOP:Favorite Lines... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87420 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "megalynn44" wrote: > My favorite line has to be when Phineus nigelus, just after > Dumbledore makes his fantastic exit, says to Fudge "You know, > MInister, > > "I disagree with Dumbledore on many counts..... but you cannot deny > he's got style" > > It was just the best ending of a chapter ever! > > ~Megs Oh! I agree! It was such a fantastic line, said with real elan. I actually ADORE Phineus. He reminds me of how Snape is in fanfics where he has mellowed and found someone companiable to make him a cup of tea and stir things for him - more talkative and calm, but with all the wit he always had. I idly wonder who would be good to play him? Any ideas, or is that too OT? Snapesangel From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Dec 21 20:00:52 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 20:00:52 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Greatest Fear In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87421 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen Bacquet" wrote: > So, what is Hermione's greatest fear, and why wouldn't Lupin allow that to materialize in the classroom? How would he know what her greatest fear is? < Could Lupin be a Legilimens? Despite what Harry says later, he does think of Voldemort -- "His first thought was Lord Voldemort--a Voldemort returned to full strength." PoA -ch7. That would neatly explain why Lupin was so sure what Harry's boggart would be. If so, Lupin could have read Hermione's fear when he told the class to think of the thing that scares them most. He might have decided that unlike Snape, McGonagall didn't deserve to be ridiculed--or maybe he didn't dare to cross her. Too bad, though, since Hermione obviously could have used some practice. Pippin From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Dec 21 20:45:22 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 20:45:22 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87422 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lindseyharrisst" wrote: Snapesangel: > Now consider Harry's generation - > Hermione is cleverest but in line with my "consent theory" it is not > the trait that she values most. No, it really is n't! I forget when > (not having hte books to hand) but she does say something > about "what good are books and cleverness if you can't be there for > your friends" (paraphrasing). Geoff: Actually, I think she sees that in a moment of stress and realises that there are other things to consider. It's just after Hermione solves the potions logic problem in Philosopher's Stone and Harry is about to face Snape (as he believes) and tells Hermione to get messages to Dumbledore; "'But, Harry - what if You-Know-Who's with him?' 'Well - I was lucky once, wasn't I?' said Harry pointing at his scar. 'I might get lucky again.' Hermione's lip trembled and she suddenly dashed at Harry and threw her arms around him. 'Hermione!' 'Harry - you're a great wizard, you know.' 'I'm not as good as you,' said Harry, very embarrassed, as she let go of him. 'Me!' said Hermione. 'Books! And cleverness! There are more important things - friendship and bravery and - oh Harry - be careful!'" (PS "Through the trapdoor" p.208 UK edition) Geoff From dreamz0007 at hotmail.com Sun Dec 21 14:58:05 2003 From: dreamz0007 at hotmail.com (Francesca Chubb-Confer) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 09:58:05 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville's family Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87423 Meri wrote: >My question >is this: why would the Longbottoms think that Neville was all >Muggle? I always saw this as them (the family) being fearful of Neville being a Squib, which as we all know is a wizard-born Muggle, so to speak. Francesca From helenhorsley at hotmail.com Sun Dec 21 15:36:27 2003 From: helenhorsley at hotmail.com (dorapye) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 15:36:27 -0000 Subject: Harry's new guardian/mentor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87424 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatlit2003" wrote: > Who will be Harry's new guardian? I don't mean an official guardian, > but basically someone he can turn to. I wasn't satisfied with the > end scene of OotP. I just don't imagine Mad-Eye or Tonks taking on > an important, protective role in Harry's life. We barely know these > characters. I know it is impossible to replace Sirius, and perhaps > for the plot it is necessary to push Harry to independence. But I > just can't imagine him transformed from mourning teenager to Voldie > killer without some form of guidance. Here are some of the > possibilities: > > 1. Lupin---my favorite choice. He is Harry's only remaining > connection with James. I was always surprised that Harry did not > grow closer to Lupin. I had hoped they would keep in touch at least > in GoF, like the way Hagrid writes to Harry during the holidays. I > guess JKR didn't want to create "competition" for Sirius. Sirius's > death was more poignant because he became the single most important > adult in Harry's life, pushing everyone else to the back. I hope > that Lupin will come forward now to take care of Harry. I would be > most disappointed if he became a minor character on par with Moody > and Tonks. > dorapye: Yes, I would love Harry to get to know Lupin better, and not simply as a connection to his parents or to Sirius, but because, despite the speculation among some list members about ESE!Lupin, I am convinced the caring teacher we see in POA is the real Lupin, genuine, gentle, intelligent, self-controlled, experienced and wise. Lupin has lots of admirable traits which Harry could aspire to, and, while I agree that Harry needs to be developing his independence, he still needs guidance to help him grow in the right direction; he needs a role model, and Lupin could amply qualify for that responsibility. greatlit2003: > 2. Molly and Arthur---an obvious choice, since they clearly want to > take care of Harry. I just wonder how Harry will feel about Molly, > since she used to fight with Sirius so often? dorapye: Yeah, he might remember those scenes at Grimmauld Place bitterly, but I think he'll be able to rationalise that, whilst Molly and Sirius disagreed about some things, there was no real animosity between them. I don't think Molly entirely approved of Sirius (she doesn't like long hair, does she?!) but, I don't believe those feelings ran too deep, she cared about Harry too much to let them do so. > > 3. Snape----no, not as a guardian (though I would be amused if Snape > filled Sirius's place in Harry's life). I think that Snape will be > the one who teaches Harry how to fight Voldemort. They may never be > friends, but Harry and Snape will have some important connection. Yes! I would love to see Harry's relationship with Snape develop beyond the petty, vindictive and resentful sneering that characterises most of their encounters so far. I want to see Harry's experience of Snape's Worst Memory have an impact on their relationship, maybe help Harry to acquire some sympathy, and some pity for Snape. I wonder if there needs to be a point where Harry and Snape can actually 'have it out' with each other?....or, more likely, it will be left unsaid, and Snape will redeem himself in Harry's eyes, or vice versa, by helping him directly in some way. >From Snape's Occlumency lessons, though, I have serious doubts about his teaching skills, so while I would like him to be able to teach Harry to arm himself against LV, as this might give the characters the opportunity to develop, at the very least, some mutual respect, I don't fancy Harry's chance of learning much from Snape! greatlit2003: > 4. Unknown friend of Lily---I do want to learn more about Harry's > mother. She barely has a personality, and seems to exist to be: > a. James' love interest b. the pretty woman with red hair and > Harry's green eyes c. the woman who died to save Harry dorapye: I think this would be a fanatastic idea! It would give JKR a chance to introduce some (more) positive female characters, and to perhaps remove Lily's halo, as she did James's in OotP. Lily seems, at this point in the series, to be too idealised, which I suppose is Harry's impression of his dead mother, about whom he knows so little (another crime to lay at Petunia's door). It would be natural for him to create a halo for her, but he is growing up now and is definitely ready for a dose of reality as far as that picture is concerned....I hope she got up to some mischief at Hogwarts too, stuff to rival James's exploits.... dorapye > > From yankee_bubba at hotmail.com Sun Dec 21 22:19:05 2003 From: yankee_bubba at hotmail.com (bubbaqrib) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 22:19:05 -0000 Subject: OOP:Favorite Lines... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87425 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arcum42" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lynx412 at a... wrote: > > > > OK, so who has favorite lines already? And what are they? > > My favorite line comes from hte second DADA class with professor Umbridge. >>"Yeah Quirrell was a great teacher," said Harry loudly, "there was just that minor drawback of him having Lord Voldemort sticking out of the back of his head." BubbaQRib From derek at rhinobunny.com Sun Dec 21 23:35:53 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 23:35:53 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Greatest Fear In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87426 pippin wrote: > Could Lupin be a Legilimens? (snip) > If so, Lupin could have read Hermione's fear when he told the > class to think of the thing that scares them most. He might > have decided that unlike Snape, McGonagall didn't deserve to > be ridiculed--or maybe he didn't dare to cross her. Derek: He may also have been aware that Hermione was already thought of as abnormally eggheaded, and been concerned that if her fear of failing classes was revealed, she'd be even more ridiculed. - Derek From catlady at wicca.net Mon Dec 22 03:30:19 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 03:30:19 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: An update on the threat to our groups In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87427 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" wrote: > In order for us to protect the other databases, we have had to > change the group settings. This means that the Database and the > Files sections can't be open to members uploads. This has some > implications for our members, as our Files section includes several > sections (humour, essays) that members have always been able to add > to themselves. [We've managed to tweak the database section; members > can still add data to the databases.] Hey, MEGs, I can't even FIND the Database section now. I want to look something up in Inish Alley, so I went to the VFAQ and clicked on the link and got an error msg that I am not a moderator ... From catlady at wicca.net Mon Dec 22 03:49:28 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 03:49:28 -0000 Subject: YKW -FideliusSwap -Madam -SeekerTom -Sorting H -Flesh of Servant -Phineas Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87428 re: Shaun and Geoff's fascinating discussion of the history of Vauxhall Road: it just occurred to me that "Wands-worth" would be a good name for a wizarding village. TravellerRose (lovely name) wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87092 : << Actually, the reaction whenever Harry says Voldemort instead of "You Know Who' put me in mind of the old English saying, ``speak of the Devil and he shall appear''. There is an old belief that if you actually name the thing you fear it will manifest - so that, to me, explains why the WW is afraid to call LV by name. (snip) Dumbledore calls LV by name because he is too intelligent to fall for such a silly superstition >> Maybe in this case it ISN'T superstition. Maybe Voldemort DOES has a magical awareness whenever his 'name' is spoken. Phyllis erisedstraehs wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87113 << I think Sirius switched with Peter in the hopes that both he (Sirius) and the Potters would survive. Sirius didn't suspect that Peter was Voldemort's spy, and he believed Peter to be the last person Voldemort would identify as the Potters' secret-keeper. So by switching to Peter, Sirius was trying to avoid being killed himself while still protecting the secrecy of the Potters' whereabouts. >> I don't understand your theory: please explain. To me, if Sirius let it be generally believed that he was the Secret Keeper, he was setting himself up to be captured by LV and tortured to encourage him to reveal the Secret and tortured eventually to death because he COULDN'T stop the torturers by giving them the secret because he didn't have it. I don't know why that would strike him as clever unless he didn't trust his ability to withstand all DE torture and not give up the secret. He seems to have trusted his ability to avoid saying: "Stop! I can't tell you the Secret because I changed with Peter: he's the real Secret Keeper" (whereupon the DEs would have captured Peter and bribed, threatened, tortured him) unless he had total faith that the bad guys would never believe that tale long enough to capture and torture Peter just in case it was true. Kneasy and K Cawte explained this all to each other in: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87337 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87340 (Who's Baldrick?) K Cawte wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87347 : << Sirius would be doing for Peter exactly what James was doing for his family - not trying to defeat the enemy but rather give the others time to leave. They don't give too many details of the plan but it would be a reasonable assumption that Sirius and Peter were in regular contact, which would mean that if Sirius vanished Peter could hide/run. >> Oh! Okay. Sirius and Peter were in contact: PoA, Chapter 19, "The Servant of Lord Voldemort": "I'd arranged to check on Peter, make sure he was still safe, but when I arrived at his hiding place, he'd gone." Jen Faulkner wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87123 : << Gran seems to me to be exactly the sort of older woman who would've grown up expecting to be a "Mrs." and continues in that expectation now. It would, I think, be insulting to her to imply that her marital status was irrelevant or questionable -- she *was* married, thankyouverymuch, and she would want that acknowledged. >> In the Muggle world, yes, but the wizarding world has had witches in the professions for centuries --- Elfrida Clagg was Chief of the Wizard's Council in the mid-1300s -- so it seems unlikely that a witch's expectations would have dramatically over Gran's one long lifetime. Arianna Arielock wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87242 : << Is it possible that Tom Riddle was a seeker, and that Harry "inherited" his talent from him? Even though she said she didn't love it, Ginny did replace Harry as seeker when he was banned from playing... >> Yes! Harry keeps saying the only thing he's good at is Quidditch, so I love to think of his angst if he learned that he got his Quidditch ability from an implant of his enemy instead of from his own genes! Thanks for pointing out that Ginny also playing Seeker is more evidence for this theory, not just Mary Sue-ism. Dmoorehpnc wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87335 : << Kneasy you are brilliant! I like your thinking the Four houses in One! Excellent. I'm not totaly on your side though but I can be easily be knocked over the line with a feather. Here's why, simply choice. Each one of the 4 made the the choice to be in Gryffindor. Although I concede that Neville's reasons have not been shared. I believe he feels the need to prove himself to be as good as his parents inspite of his fears, (isn't that the essence of courage?). All that being said your ideas are more intriguing. >> I 3/4 agree with you: We saw Ron and Hermione both say, on the Hogwarts Express, that they hoped to be in Gryffindor, and we heard Harry tell the Hat that he *didn't* want to be in Slytherin (I still think the Hat was just teasing him about that). But my theory as to why the Hat spent so very long with Neville is that it wanted to put him in Gryffindor and he kept protesting: "I don't deserve Gryffindor, I'm almost a Squib, I should be in Hufflepuff." Unlike you and Kneasy, I think Neville has great courage that he isn't even aware of. Kneasy wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87339 : << Can't say that I'd fancy any of the Houses. Probably start one of my own. Why should the cantankerous, curmudgeonly, bloody-minded, suspicious misfits not have a haven to themselves? >> Ah, Filch House! Abbet wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87396 : << Sorry if this has been brought up already. So anyways at the end of PoA Dumbledore tells Harry that Wormtail's in his debt and that he might be glad that he saved Wormtail's life. So the look of triumph in Dumbledore's eye in GoF could be because the flesh of Voldemort's servent is in debt to the blood of a enemy. I think the look in Dumbledore's eye has at least as much, if not more to do with the fact Voldemort used Wormtail and not as much to do with using Harry. >> Look up MAGIC DISHWASHER in Hypothetic Alley: http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hypotheticalley.html#md Snape'sAngel wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87420 : << I actually ADORE Phineus. He reminds me of how Snape is in fanfics where he has mellowed and found someone companiable to make him a cup of tea and stir things for him - more talkative and calm, but with all the wit he always had. >> I adore Portrait!Phineas, too, but I feel sure that Portrait!Phineas must have mellowed compared to Live!Phineas (possibly as a result of whatever spell was involved in that "oath" the portraits of deceased Headmasters took to assist each current Headmaster). Sirius described him as the most hated Headmaster Hogwarts ever had, and to even be in the running for 'most hated' out of one thousand years of Headmasters, he must have been nasty indeed. Presumably he was very fond of sentencing students to be punished by physical damage -- Filch would have *loved* to work for him --what eLse might he have done to earn hatred? From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Mon Dec 22 03:49:42 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 03:49:42 -0000 Subject: FILK: The Ends Justify the Meanies Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87429 The Ends Justify the Meanies To the tune of If You Go In (aka Faint Heart Never Won Fair Lady) from Gilbert & Sullivan's greatest operetta Iolanthe Hear a MIDI at: http://diamond.boisestate.edu/gas/iolanthe/html/hewhoshi.html Dedicated to Ginger THE SCENE: Slytherin Commons. The ANTI-TRIO make a recruiting pitch for their home dorm. DRACO If you go in To Slytherin You will succeed like Mussolini: Simply recite This old sound-bite, "The ends justify the meanies" DRACO, CRABBE & GOYLE: Meanies, meanies meanies, The ends justify the meanies! Ev'rybody has their price Finishes last does ev'ry guy nice If they lack bread, let `em eat cake Give no sucker an even break! CRABBE: It's so cool To be as cruel As the famous barber Sweeney Who once prayed To his sharp blade: "The ends justify the meanies!" DRACO, CRABBE & GOYLE: Meanies, meanies meanies, The ends justify the meanies Just look out for Number One -- Risk not your neck for anyone Plausible be what you deny Life is a bitch and then you die! GOYLE: In our dorm It is the norm To have a conscience rather teeny Take this proverb As your sworn word: "The ends justify the meanies!" DRACO, CRABBE & GOYLE: Meanies, meanies meanies, The ends justify the meanies When you find opportunity Make sure you ask, "What's in it for me?" Divide and conquer, that's our aim As we learn how to play the game! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From cristina at prodigy.net Mon Dec 22 03:57:08 2003 From: cristina at prodigy.net (crisagi1) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 03:57:08 -0000 Subject: Neville's talent now revealed in the next book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87430 > I think you have some good points but I disagree. I think Neville > will continue to get better, but I think it will have little to do > with a new wand. I think that when Harry walked in to get his wand, > there was only one wand for him. Ollivander seems to have quite a > hard time finding the right wand for Harry, but I think that when > most WW come in there's probably a couple wands that would suit > them. Other than the fact that the Harry was meant to have his > wand, I think he could have used either of his parents wands fairly > well. Ron only had trouble with his brother's wand after it broke, > seems the next best wand to picking out one would be a family member. > > Abbet ME: Very good points... I was just wondering if a wand could be like a bone marrow doner for someone with leukemia... I mean that although a close family member is your most likely match, it does not guarantee it. Maybe, because it was his father's wand he was able to use it, but it was just not a perfect match. Crissy From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Dec 22 03:59:35 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 03:59:35 -0000 Subject: Source of Riddle's Diary Solved Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87431 Recently there has been a long on-going discussion of Tom Riddle's Diary, and where he is likely to have gotten it. Most people seem set on Tom Riddle going to the diary, but I have alway contended (as has Ron) that the diary came to Tom. In speculating about how Tom Riddle Jr might have come across his diary, some brilliant research has been done by the equally brilliant Shaun Hately, who not only found the most likely location of the 1940's era Vauxhall Road, but was able to lead us to likely orphanages in the area where Tom Riddle Jr could have been living. What I am going to propose in no way invalidates, diminishes the significants of, or minimizes the substantial amount of research that went in to accumulating his data. Primarily, in 1943/1944, American GI's, very much missing their own homes and families, threw huge 'Christmas for Orphans' parties. Every orphan they could gather was invited to a big feast, a chance to be adopted by a GI for the day, a cahnce to meet Santa Claus, and of course, PRESENTS! (History Channel - WWII doucmentary coverage) In cases there the orphans were unable to come to them, they drove huge fleets of trucks out to ophanages loaded with food and presents. Many Brits who were orphans who were interviewed remember the Christmas Parties very vividly and very fondly, some of thier best memories during those dark times. If would seem reasonable to conclude that little children are easy to satisfy at Christmas; a toy and a little affection, but older kids like Tom Riddle would probably feel uncomfortable with both a child-like present and with the affection. Extending this logic, a diary doesn't seem that unreasonable a gift for someone of 15 or 16. I certainly don't have any way to prove this, but from many orphans this was the only Christmas they had, and any presents they received would have come from these GI sponsored parties. To believe that Tom Riddle bought the diary himself, I would have to see some indication of calculated intent to use the diary prior to his opening of the Chamber of Secrets 50 ago. In the absents of that prior intent, I have to conclude that the diary fell into his possession some how, and only later did he get the idea to save himself in it. Just a thought. bboy_mn From drednort at alphalink.com.au Mon Dec 22 04:25:21 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 15:25:21 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Source of Riddle's Diary Solved In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3FE70CE1.23098.69F241@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 87432 On 22 Dec 2003 at 3:59, Steve wrote: > In speculating about how Tom Riddle Jr might have come across his > diary, some brilliant research has been done by the equally brilliant > Shaun Hately, who not only found the most likely location of the > 1940's era Vauxhall Road, but was able to lead us to likely orphanages > in the area where Tom Riddle Jr could have been living. What I am > going to propose in no way invalidates, diminishes the significants > of, or minimizes the substantial amount of research that went in to > accumulating his data. I'd just like to point out immediately that while I will happily accept some of the credit for identifying a possible Vauxhall Road, the identification of the Spurgeon/Stockwell Orphanage as being in that general vicinity area was done by somebody else. It's perfectly possible that Tom did receive the diary as a present from somebody, possibly in the way you describe - but I'd find that somewhat unsatisfying personally because it damages Harry's deduction that Tom must have been Muggle-born (not that he was spot on, on that - given that Tom had a witch mother, muggle father - but still I like the idea of Harry making a semi-successful logical deduction) given that he bough a diary in Vauxhall Road. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From nakedkali at yahoo.com Sun Dec 21 23:21:16 2003 From: nakedkali at yahoo.com (Keith) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 23:21:16 -0000 Subject: Wizardly Interrogations (was re Re: The Sorting Hat) In-Reply-To: <002e01c3c805$19fe3e30$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87433 Kneasy > Just to throw another possibility into the fray > (and hopefully add a bit > more backbone to my argument), [snipped by Sea Change] K: > Ah but knowing someone is lying and finding > out exactly what the truth is > are different things. I was assuming that > the DEs would *expect* Sirius to > be lying as a matter of course. Sea Change replies to this turn of the thread, and quotes the above just to let you know where I stepped in: We know that Veritaserum exists and it's the only truthtelling potion that isn't poisonous, but do we know from canon that there's no counterpotion or antivenin that you can take ahead of time that counteracts it or messes with the results? Perhaps Imperio works like a computer program. That is to say you can direct your subject to tell the truth, but then you would have to know the address of the library called 'truth' in order to call up that subroutine. Failing that, you could tell the cursed person to call up *your* version of the truth, in order to deceive others when you are not around and they are talking to others, but this is not directly helpful to you, especially if it wipes out a portion of their hard drive that actually has the 'truth' library (i.e., their brain). Sea Change From nakedkali at yahoo.com Sun Dec 21 23:54:57 2003 From: nakedkali at yahoo.com (Keith) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 23:54:57 -0000 Subject: What Beasts will we see in future books? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87434 Carin said: > what creature from FBAWTFT that > we haven't met yet do you expect or hope (or fear) will appear in > the last two books? Sea Change responds: I'm not sure this belongs here or in the OT group, but I am still moderated, so I'll bite with the idea that the elves can intercept this. I really want to see some Crumple-Horned Snorkacks! From dreamz0007 at hotmail.com Mon Dec 22 00:12:43 2003 From: dreamz0007 at hotmail.com (Francesca Chubb-Confer) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 19:12:43 -0500 Subject: OOP:Favorite Lines... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87435 Lynx412 wrote: > OK, so who has favorite lines already? And what are they? Mine has got to be "it unscrews the other way," said by the magnificent!McGonagall to Peeves when he is trying to get the chandelier to fall. Ah, Professor McGonagall. My new favorite teacher :). Francesca From aldhelm at earthlink.net Mon Dec 22 00:48:53 2003 From: aldhelm at earthlink.net (carin_in_oh) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 00:48:53 -0000 Subject: OOP:Favorite Lines... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87436 bubbaqrib wrote: > "Yeah Quirrell was a great teacher," said Harry loudly, "there was > just that minor drawback of him having Lord Voldemort sticking out > of the back of his head." That was going to be my vote - but my other favorite (despite its unpleasant consequences) has got to be "Accio brain!" Carin From haddonfieldcitizen at yahoo.com Mon Dec 22 03:55:08 2003 From: haddonfieldcitizen at yahoo.com (haddonfieldcitizen) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 03:55:08 -0000 Subject: Time Turners able to transport user to future? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87437 In the books it seemed that Time Turners were used primarily to go to the past, but is future travel possible with them? I don't see why not, although mention of this possibility seems conspicuously absent.... Brian From spang_b at yahoo.co.in Mon Dec 22 04:42:27 2003 From: spang_b at yahoo.co.in (spang_b) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 04:42:27 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87438 Hi, There is a further interesting angle to this one. My premise is that people who are showing characteristics of houses other than their own also tend to be good at the subject the head of the house teaches. Neville -- Hufflepuff: shows aptitude for Herbology, the subject of Professor Sprout, head of Hufflepuff. Hermione -- Ravenclaw: is best in jinxes, spells and other charms work, the subject of Professor Flitwick, head of Ravenclaw Marauders-- James, Sirius and Lupin are all unusually good at Transfiguration, the subject of Prof. McGonagall current head of Gryffindor and also Prof. Dumbledore, previous head of Gryffindor. Only Harry shows aptitude for DADA and Ron not particularly for any one subject. This does not however, take away from this interesting fact, does it? spangb From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Mon Dec 22 06:55:10 2003 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 06:55:10 -0000 Subject: FILK: I Heard the News on Halloween Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87439 "I Heard the News on Halloween" to the tune of "I Heard the Bells on Christmas Day" Dedicated to Gail and CMC...long time no filk, eh? The Scene: McGonagall and Dumbledore are conversing outside Number Four, Privet Drive, waiting for Hagrid to bring the newly orphaned Harry. MCGONAGALL: I heard the news on Halloween, A Godric's Hollow murder scene. James, Lily died; the babe survived Whom they now call The Boy Who Lived. The wizards show such carelessness -- Dedalus Diggle has no sense! He shooting sent the stars in Kent To celebrate The Boy Who Lived It would not do to out us now That You-Know-Who has lost his pow'rs. Some Muggles keen just might have seen Those owl posts 'bout The Boy Who Lived. Please tell me, Albus Dumbledore Is You-Know...all right, Voldemort... He's truly gone from Wizardom? He could not kill The Boy Who Lived? DUMBLEDORE: Yes, it is true, both good and bad He could not kill that little lad The wrong has failed, the good prevailed We owe all to The Boy Who Lived. (He thinks these next thoughts to himself) Yet Voldemort's sealed his own fate He is not dead; he hides in wait. You'll have this scar forever more; He's marked you now, dear Boy Who Lived. From allysmom at wowway.com Sun Dec 21 22:32:35 2003 From: allysmom at wowway.com (allysmom at wowway.com) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 17:32:35 -0500 Subject: Neville's family Message-ID: <3fe62d93.6a32.1804289383@wowway.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87440 Meri: > My question is this: why would the Longbottoms think > that Neville was all Muggle? Was his mother from a > Muggle family? Or are the Longbottoms not all wizards > and witches as I thought? Hi! I'm new here, so forgive me if I seem a little stupid.... I believe Neville's family thought he was a squib. (a non-magical person born into a magical family). "allysmom" From desiivy at yahoo.com Mon Dec 22 07:29:15 2003 From: desiivy at yahoo.com (~Ivy~) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 23:29:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: OOP:Favorite Lines...(?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031222072915.33488.qmail@web12708.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87441 Ooo, I read this subject and grabbed my book to find my favorite lines. This is it... I just couldn't find it though, still my favorite. If I may ask where is it?? Cause I looked? Francesca Chubb-Confer wrote: > Mine has got to be "it unscrews the other way," said by the > magnificent!McGonagall to Peeves when he is trying to get > the chandelier to fall. Ah, Professor McGonagall. My new > favorite teacher :). My other which I found while trying to find the other one. I?d agree with whom ever said it, Harry?s got some pretty good smart arse comments in this one (OOP). Chapter 38 Harry sees Malfoy & his goons approaching "You?re dead, Potter" Harry raised his eyebrows "Funny," he said, "you?d think I?d have stopped walking around?.." Skips a bit Harry has his wand out pointed at Malfoy Snape walks up. "What?re you doing, Potter" Snape coldly as ever, as he strode over to the four of them. "I?m trying to decide what curse to use on Malfoy, Sir" said Harry fiercely. I love this one because most of the time when Snape?s round, he will have no problem singling him out as the trouble maker humiliating him in front of everyone. Harry will have no choice but to bite his tongue. Here he didn?t care and I loved it. The whole scene I could clearly see in my head as I read it. I laughed out loud, I had people staring at me. I didn?t care. It was good. ~Ivy~ From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Dec 22 10:06:53 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 10:06:53 -0000 Subject: YKW -FideliusSwap -Madam -SeekerTom -Sorting H -Flesh of Servant -Phineas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87442 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" > Always interesting to peruse the weekly round-up from Catlady; a few days of reflection tends to give a more objective view. > Kneasy and K Cawte explained this all to each other in: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87337 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87340 > (Who's Baldrick?) > Kneasy: Baldrick. The physically disgusting, intellectually challenged servant of Edmund Blackadder in the TV series 'Blackadder' starring Rowan Atkinson. He proposes schemes ("I have a cunning plan, Mr Blackadder") that are invariably self defeating and would result in a worse situation than the one he's trying to ameliorate. Very funny. >> Kneasy wrote in > << Can't say that I'd fancy any of the Houses. Probably start one of > my own. Why should the cantankerous, curmudgeonly, bloody-minded, > suspicious misfits not have a haven to themselves? >> > Catlady: > Ah, Filch House! > Kneasy: Why not? Good thinking. A role model worth emulating. House colours: Black (for their mood) and jaundiced yellow (for their outlook) House symbol: Bear (with a sore head) Password to Common Room: "Bah! Humbug!" From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Dec 22 10:42:50 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 10:42:50 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87443 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "spang_b" wrote: > > My premise is that people who are showing characteristics of > houses other than their own also tend to be good at the subject the > head of the house teaches. > > Neville -- Hufflepuff: shows aptitude for Herbology, the subject > of Professor Sprout, head of Hufflepuff. > > Hermione -- Ravenclaw: is best in jinxes, spells and other charms > work, the subject of Professor Flitwick, head of Ravenclaw > > Marauders-- James, Sirius and Lupin are all unusually good at > Transfiguration, the subject of Prof. McGonagall current head of > Gryffindor and also Prof. Dumbledore, previous head of Gryffindor. > > Only Harry shows aptitude for DADA and Ron not particularly for > any one subject. This does not however, take away from this > interesting fact, does it? > Nice piece of logical thinking here. Give that person a Butterbeer. Why shouldn't the Head of House reflect the magical inclinations of students sorted into their Houses in addition to the personality traits read by the Hat? Neville and Hermione, yes. Harry - well, to study DADA you must know about the Dark Arts to be able to defend against them. And Dark Arts is Slytherin. Will Harry be the next Snape? Ron doesn't seem to show much aptitude for Transfiguration (yet), but perhaps he'll catch up with Gred and Forge eventually. At least he didn't seem to mess up his Transfiguration OWL exam though he seems to have made mistakes in most other subjects. Could be that this is his 'least worst' subject, which is a back-handed way of defining 'best'. Kneasy From belijako at online.no Mon Dec 22 12:03:53 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 12:03:53 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87444 Kneasy wrote: > When Sirius handed over the Secret Keepers job to Peter, he could no longer > divulge that information. But he could tell Voldy who the new Secret Keeper was. > And under Imperio! or Cruciatus! he would, too. > So James and Lily were no better off. > > If Sirius' brilliant plan had worked as intended, then five people would have > been killed (Sirius, Peter, James, Lily and Harry) instead of four (Sirius, James, > Lily and Harry). Berit replies: Now you're beng difficult on purpose Kneasy :-) I'd have to agree with Kathryn on this one: Sirius plan wasn't that bad: They were in a desperate situation, people in the Order died like flies all around them. Sirius's brave plan might've bought James and Lily some more time. That is, IF Peter hadn't been a traitor. Sure, maybe Sirius would have been forced to tell Voldie that Peter was the secret keeper under the influence of the imperio curse or veritaserum, but; he would have been able to prolong James and Lily's lives, if only just for a few hours by making Voldie chase him first... And as we all know, a few hours might be the difference between life and death when you're stalked by a maniac: You might be able to flee the hiding place; get help somewhere else, or whatever. Berit From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Mon Dec 22 12:57:59 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 12:57:59 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Greatest Fear In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87445 Crissy, You're right, of course. The boggart just happened to head toward Harry first and Lupin, in a hurry to prevent what he thought would be the appearance of a boggart Voldemort, disposed of the creature quickly. Lupin also didn't want to draw attention to the fact that he didn't give Harry a turn (to prevent a possible panic) because he didn't want the other students to realize that he was preventing Harry from facing the boggart. As for Hermione, I have a feeling that JK Rowling delayed the revelation of her boggart-style 'greatest fear' so it would make a bigger, more humorous impact later on and so the other students wouldn't make fun of Hermione, which they certainly would have if her boggart had appeared in front of the class. If Ron's habit of seeing the future in the form of offhand jokes continues through the last two books, every joke he utters will be scrutinized to pieces by HP4Grownups! If it is a red herring, it's a great one, because it makes the books enjoyably re-readable! Diana L. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "crisagi1" wrote: > > > > > So, what is Hermione's greatest fear, and why wouldn't Lupin allow > > that to materialize in the classroom? How would he know what her > > greatest fear is? Does it have something to do with her having > > figured out that Lupin is a werewolf? (But I don't think Lupin > knows > > that until later in the book.) > > Actually Hermione tells everyone at the Shrieking Shack that she > realized Lupin was a werewolf after she wrote the essay for Snape on > the creatures. > > Also, during her final examination, she had to face a boggart and it > turned into Prof. Mcgonnagal telling her she failed her subjects. > > I don't think that Lupin purposefully didn't want her to face the > boggart. It was heading straight for Harry and he didn't want the > class to see Voldermort. It was just that a coincidence that she > was farther from the creature than Harry. There is also the theory > that Ron is a seer. Ron makes lots of jokes that later on turn out > to be true. You can research them in other posts. This might have > been another one of JKR's red herrings. > > Crissy From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Mon Dec 22 13:15:08 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 13:15:08 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Veil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87446 > Steve wrote: (snipping fore and aft) > > >Harry and Voldemort walk through the Veil. Voldemort is immediately > >set upon by the people he has killed. Harry on the other hand is met > >by James, Lily, and Sirius who are very happy to see him, but tell him > >he can not stay. Although Harry resists at first, they convince him > >that it is not his time, and he has a long, valuable, and rewarding > >life that must be lived out. They also remind him of all the people > >who love him, who are waiting for him in the mortal world. The sounds > >of the lamentations of his beloved friends convinces Harry that he > >must go back. > > > >Much to the surprise of everyone, Harry, the first person in history > >to ever do so, emerges from behind the Veil. Que the swelling music, > >hugs all around, jubilation and celebration, fade to black. Nicholas wrote: > Ever since the Veil made its appearance in OoP, I have thought that at some > stage Harry will go through it, possibly in ensuring that Voldemort goes. > Then, either your scenario will kick in, or there will be Deep Magic From > Before The Dawn Of Time (ok, ok, I know that's not JKR) which says that if > someone goes through the Veil Voluntarily and for a Great Cause, then he > can come back. > > Or Harry may go through after certain preparations...remember what Snape > said he could do with his potions in PS/SS ...'even stopper death'. I've > often wondered about that. > > Another possible scenario; to conquer Voldemort, Harry needs certain > information which only Sirius/James and Lily/Dumbledore if he dies/ has. > Harry will take Sirius's mirror with him in order to get the info back to > the other side and we all expect him to stay Dead...but the Deep Magic > scenario then kicks in and he does come back after all. > who doesn't think Harry will be dead at the end. Diana L. writes: I doubt the veil will ever make another actual appearance in the books. I'm sure there will be a few mentions, but don't think that Harry, Ron, Hermione, Ginny, Neville or Luna will ever visit the veil of death room again. I could be completely wrong, of course, but that's the hazzard of writing down my gut feelings in a post... The veil is obviously a dangerous object that allows a person to unwittingly fall into death, a la Sirius. I can see Dumbledore keeping Harry as far away from that archway as possible. I can't even see him thinking of allowing Harry to lure Voldemort through the archway. Dumbledore had refused to kill Harry in order to kill Voldemort at the end of OoP, remember. Harry means too much to Dumbledore - not only as the prophecied saviour of the WW, but as a boy that Dumbledore loves as if he were his own grandson. The "put a stopper in death" quote that Snape spouts in the first book however is a different story. The mention of a sleeping potion so powerful that it is called the Draught of Death has me wondering if just such a potion will come into play. If it does appear again, it seems likely that the potion will be used to 'kill' Harry and then allow for him to be revived after defeating Voldemort in some way. Snape mentions it as a skill he could teach them, so we know he knows how to make it, too. Can a happy-ending-this-time Romeo and Juliet ending be in the offing? Or, I hope not, a regular tragic-ending Romeo and Juliet style ending be in the cards for Harry and one/all of his friends? I can't see JKR copying such a well-known tragic ending though, so I must happily reject the latter proposal as soon as I type it. I know that if Harry dies in the end I'm going to cry buckets. And if he 'pretend' dies (and JKR doesn't tell the readers!) and then is ressurected by means of that potion, then I'm still going to cry buckets, but I won't throw the book across the room. Diana L. (also hoping and daring to believe Harry won't die in the end) From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Mon Dec 22 13:25:49 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 13:25:49 -0000 Subject: Neville's talent now revealed in the next book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87447 Abbet wrote: > > I think you have some good points but I disagree. I think Neville > > will continue to get better, but I think it will have little to do > > with a new wand. I think that when Harry walked in to get his > wand, > > there was only one wand for him. Ollivander seems to have quite a > > hard time finding the right wand for Harry, but I think that when > > most WW come in there's probably a couple wands that would suit > > them. Other than the fact that the Harry was meant to have his > > wand, I think he could have used either of his parents wands > fairly > > well. Ron only had trouble with his brother's wand after it > broke, > > seems the next best wand to picking out one would be a family > member. > > > Crissy wrote: > Very good points... I was just wondering if a wand could be like a > bone marrow doner for someone with leukemia... I mean that although > a close family member is your most likely match, it does not > guarantee it. Maybe, because it was his father's wand he was able > to use it, but it was just not a perfect match. > Crissy Diana L. writes: I get the impression that Neville's grandmother wanted Neville to use his father's wand in order to try to get Neville to carry on with his father's legacy (great wizard, powerful auror, etc.) and the wand was a way of helping Neville remain close to his dad in a small way. It's entirely possible that Neville will greatly improve in his magic abilities NOT because he gets a new wand that's a 'proper fit', but because he won't have the legacy of his dad (in the form of his dad's wand) hanging over him at every moment making him feel inadequate by comparison. His family has obviously accentuated his "lack of magical ability" frequently and talked about it in front of Neville for years. Neville knows he's a disappointment to his relatives and knows they don't feel he comes even close to his mom or dad as a wizard. If a new wand makes Neville realize that he's free to be himself and he doesn't HAVE to try to measure up to his father all the time.... Neville will be a truly new and exciting character to watch. Imagine the possibilities.... Diana L. From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Mon Dec 22 14:33:08 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 14:33:08 -0000 Subject: Source of Riddle's Diary Solved In-Reply-To: <3FE70CE1.23098.69F241@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87448 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: (snip) > It's perfectly possible that Tom did receive the diary as a present > from somebody, possibly in the way you describe - but I'd find that > somewhat unsatisfying personally because it damages Harry's > deduction that Tom must have been Muggle-born (not that he was spot > on, on that - given that Tom had a witch mother, muggle father - > but still I like the idea of Harry making a semi-successful logical > deduction) given that he bough a diary in Vauxhall Road. > Carolyn: Steve, I agree with Shaun. Although it is attractive to a fully-paid up conspiracy theorist like me to speculate that Riddle was, in fact, possibly funded via the US military all those years ago (I sure wouldn't put it past the CIA..), the whole point of this long thread is to investigate the very specific mention of 'Vauxhall Road' on the back of that diary. On the basis that JKR wastes very few words, and seldom mentions things twice without reason, we want to know what's so important about Vauxhall Rd. Despite the complexity of its many possible locations, none of those mentioned is a 'natural' for buying a diary. There are many more suitable, and more likely places to pick up a cheap diary, especially if Tom was on his way through London on his way to school during war time, eg one of the big railway stations. It is also *really* peculiar to have the address of the newsagent printed on the back of the diary. The name of the printer, yes, that's normal, but *not* a newsagent. Very few newsagent's would be big enough to have own-brand diaries even now, let alone in 1943. I gather in the US edition that 'newsagent' has been changed to 'variety' or 'convenience' store or some such, but I'm personally having no truck with that. It may be a term that US readers find more familiar, but in the UK a newsagent means a very specific sort of shop, and JKR is British, so I am sticking with her word and what it means here. As Geoff has pointed out, the only UK chain of newsagents big enough to possibly have an own-brand diary range in 1943 is WH Smith. However, this still makes no sense, as they would not print the address of just one of their shops on the back of the diary, what would appear there would be their company name, and possibly the printer's name and address. Its a puzzle and an oddity. For some reason, I believe she wanted to draw our attention to a particular location in London, and did it in this slightly odd way, leaving a clue or two for those with enquiring minds. As to whether Tom bought the diary himself, or someone else bought it for him in Vauxhall Rd, I have no idea. Either is possible. I would also like to point out in passing that I believe the Lexicon reference to the Stockwell orphanage should be amended as a result of all this research. As I pointed out some many posts ago, I found a note that all orphans were removed from the orphanage at the outbreak of war in 1939, a fact that Shaun has also subsequently confirmed from other sources. This means that Tom Riddle was not living there in 1942/43 and gives him no official reason to be wandering around in the area at the time - and the diary was definitely dated on its front cover, it wasn't a blank, rolling diary, as some have suggested. Further, I think that this fact lessens the chances that Riddle was ever at the orphanage. No one has been able to come up with a satisfactory reason why he should end up in a place which seems to be a long way from Little Hangleton (wherever that is). The only reason the orphanage idea has ever been linked with the diary is simply its geographical proximity to Vauxhall Rd. Granted, Riddle MAY have lived there before the war, but why ? Carolyn From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Dec 22 17:57:02 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 17:57:02 -0000 Subject: Fidelius swap was Re: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87449 Kneasy: > I'm starting to get the impression that you're edging towards the view that Sirius is the equal of Voldy in magical power. That he can withstand, even temporarily, the force of Voldy's will. If so, can you substantiate it?< I think Sirius considered himself the match of Voldemort in cleverness and far more clever than the Death Eaters. I'm sure Sirius considered himself quite clever enough to elude the Death Eaters for as long as necessary, IMO, and he might well have been right about that. After all, he eluded the far more numerous aurors for two whole years, and they were no nearer catching him when he died. I don't think either James or Sirius ever considered what would happen if Sirius got caught, because Sirius never planned to be taken alive. He says that he would have died rather than betray Peter, and I'm sure both he and James believed that. Sirius's idea, IMO, was that he would lead the DE's a merry chase, deliberately draw their fire, and force them to waste time and resources hunting him. Meanwhile, James and Lily would know that their secret was safe with Peter all the time, much less nerve-wracking for them than thinking their real secret-keeper was out there deliberately taunting the DE's. Kneasy: > Sirius is a pretty ordinary wizard; true he has mastered the Animagus spell, but taking Peter as a guide, all that needs is practice not power. There is no evidence that he practiced guarding against an Unspeakable or a Legilimens or that he had the power to achieve resistance successfully. < Any spy who is close to Dumbledore would have to be an Occlumens to be successful. If Dumbledore ever believed that Sirius was the spy, he must have thought him capable of Occlumency, at least. Kneasy: > Besides, I don't think Sirius is a real 'goodie' anyway. That's why he had to die.< Listen to the Centaurs, Kneasy. Sirius died because he was *innocent*. The villains die in the last ditch, because there's no story without them. Pippin From kcox at wooster.edu Mon Dec 22 09:29:58 2003 From: kcox at wooster.edu (its_a_monstertrucker) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 09:29:58 -0000 Subject: Hermione's greatest fear Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87450 I think it's implausible that Hermione, even in PoA, could imagine nothing scarier than failing classes. Most likely she made up a lie about the boggart being McG, because she was too embarrassed to admit what her boggart really looked like. Perhaps we'll find out her greatest fear in book 6 or 7. As for whether Lupin knew, I doubt it. Is there any other evidence to suggest that he's a legilimens? From angela_glor at yahoo.com Mon Dec 22 16:48:16 2003 From: angela_glor at yahoo.com (angela_glor) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 16:48:16 -0000 Subject: OOP:Favorite Lines... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87451 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arealin" wrote: > I know it's "a bit" late, but I went through the whole thread and > these quotes haven't been mentioned: > > McGonagall: "It unscrews the other way." > > hehe I would've quoted the whole passage, but I don't have my book > at the moment. Yes, I liked that one as well. McGonagall shows quite a dry wit sometimes, doesn't she? My favorite (and I don't have my book either) is from Kreacher in his first scene. I like how he mutters his insults under his breath. It makes me wonder why Dobby never thought of that -- if a house elf mutters under his breath, then the house elf can say what is on his mind. Better than banging a lamp on one's head, you think? Angela From angela_glor at yahoo.com Mon Dec 22 16:53:58 2003 From: angela_glor at yahoo.com (angela_glor) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 16:53:58 -0000 Subject: Favorite OotP Chapter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87452 The discussion of everyones favorite line made me wonder if everyone has a favorite chapter. I think my favorite chapter would be "The Noble And Ancient House Of Black." I think that is the name. I don't have my book with me, so forgive me if I got that wrong. I remember that when I first read the book, that chapter really blew me away. Harry had just arrived, and I found the new characters (Tonks, Kingsley) kind of flat, especially in the part where they flew him to Black's house. Then we start finding out about the intricate relationships among the characters in the Black family picture. It really set the dark mood for me. Does anyone else have a chapter that stood out? Angela From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Mon Dec 22 18:03:44 2003 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 18:03:44 -0000 Subject: Grindelwald and Tom Riddle Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87453 I still am intrigued by the mention on the date on the back of DD's chocolate frog that he defeated Grindelwald in 1945. I know many have speculated that this either was Hitler or was connected to WWII, and I agree to the latter. My question (and I have searched the archives briefly but not all 87000ish!) is there a connection between Grindelwald and Tom Riddle? Riddle was at Hogwarts at the time, or immediately preceding. Could this be the reason TR/LV is afraid only of DD? I just have a hard time accepting the possibility that he simply was afraid of his Transfiguration Teacher. Julie From naama2486 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 22 20:36:38 2003 From: naama2486 at yahoo.com (Naama) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 20:36:38 -0000 Subject: Favorite OotP Chapter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87454 Angela said: The discussion of everyones favorite line made me wonder if everyone has a favorite chapter. Does anyone else have a chapter that stood out? Now me: Aah, only the obvious! Without a doubt, "Snape's worst memory" takes the first place for me. From marcuscason at charter.net Mon Dec 22 15:00:04 2003 From: marcuscason at charter.net (kyntor70) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 15:00:04 -0000 Subject: Male or Female Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87455 I am trying to remember if JKR has ever specified Blaize Zambini's sex? I don't remember if she did, does anyone else? Kyntor From doc_jekyl at hotmail.com Mon Dec 22 18:30:26 2003 From: doc_jekyl at hotmail.com (Dr. Jekyl) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 02:30:26 +0800 Subject: Speak of the Devil (was re:YKW -FideliusSwap -Madam -SeekerTom) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87456 TravellerRose wrote: >>Actually, the reaction whenever Harry says Voldemort instead of >>"You Know Who' put me in mind of the old English saying, ``speak of >>the Devil and he shall appear''. There is an old belief that if you >>actually name the thing you fear it will manifest - so that, to me, >>explains why the WW is afraid to call LV by name. (snip) Dumbledore >>calls LV by name because he is too intelligent to fall for such a >>silly superstition Catlady wrote: >Maybe in this case it ISN'T superstition. Maybe Voldemort DOES has a >magical awareness whenever his 'name' is spoken. I've always doubted that the whole 'you know who' thing is pure superstition. Say Voldemort's name and bad things happen. This belief must have *some* factual basis within the wizarding world (even if only coincidental), else fear of the name would not have become so widespread. In this I see two scenarios. Hands up those of you who ever tried to summon Bloody Mary as a kid. Maybe you didn't , but dared someone else to do it. Or maybe you have kids who tried it out. You know, go into the bathroom, turn off all the lights and then, at the stroke of midnight, chant "Bloody Mary, Bloody Mary, Bloody Mary" or "I believe in Mary Worth". As the legend goes, complete the ritual and the malignant spirit of Mary Worth or Queen Mary or whoever appears and tries to kill or maim you. A friend of a friend of a friend of yours summoned her up and was scarred for life, cursed with bad luck or maybe was even killed. In the first scenario I envision, the name 'Voldemort' has become an urban legend along the lines of 'Bloody Mary', but of mammoth proportions. It's mainstream. Say the name and he appears. Say the name and people get killed or hurt. There are probably documented instances of this happening: someone joked about being killed by Voldemort and the next day he was. Someone mentions 'Voldemort' in a conversation about current events and seconds later the place is under attack. While in actuality these events are pure coincidence, the legend takes on a life of its own. In a small community, its easy for everyone to have a friend of a friend who said 'Voldemort' and subsequently regretted it. The second scenario is the more sinister of the two, and for that reason I like it better. As Catlady said, perhaps Voldemort does have an awareness of when his name is said not to mention who it is said by and where. At the height of his power, Voldemort cast or created a particular spell that altered him to when he was the topic of discussion. And every now and then, when he didn't like what was being said about him, he would appear and leave bloodshed and chaos in his wake. Would you not fear to speak his name if you knew that there's a good chance he might hear you and show up? Wouldn't you adopt phrases and code-names that the spell wouldn't pick up on? It's not an urban legend; it's an urban reality. This would certainly explain why witches and wizards such as McGonagall and Snape are afraid to say Voldemort's name, something I've had trouble rationalizing. I can't see McGonagall, one of the most even-keeled and logical witches we've encountered, adhering to this superstition if it did not have some real, factual and documented basis or it did not threaten her in some way. And Snape, being a former Death Eater, is certainly in a position to know the truth of the matter. Dumbledore, on the other hand can freely save YKW's name because Voldemort is reputed to fear him. He is too powerful to be worried. Dumbledore encourages Harry to use YKW's name as Harry needs to believe he is Voldemort's equal, and what better way to demonstrate that than by calling Voldemort by name when no-one else will? When there is, in fact, inherent danger to doing so? I'm hoping this makes sense for an inaugural post compiled at 2:30am. -Dr. Jekyl _________________________________________________________________ E-mail just got a whole lot better. New ninemsn Premium. Click here http://ninemsn.com.au/premium/landing.asp From derek at rhinobunny.com Mon Dec 22 19:50:25 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:50:25 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Source of Riddle's Diary Solved In-Reply-To: References: <3FE70CE1.23098.69F241@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031222114130.01f9cec0@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87457 Carolyn wrote: >Its a puzzle and an oddity. For some reason, I believe she wanted to >draw our attention to a particular location in London, and did it in >this slightly odd way, leaving a clue or two for those with enquiring >minds. As to whether Tom bought the diary himself, or someone else >bought it for him in Vauxhall Rd, I have no idea. Either is possible. Derek: I do think it's also possible that the significance of "Vauxhall Road, London" is simply that it *isn't* "Diagon Alley" or "Knockturn Alley" or "Hogsmeade" or some such. We know that the majority of folks in the WW have virtually no interaction with the Muggle world, and they would therefore be unlikely to buy anything from any non-WW store. Harry may deduce Riddle's Muggle (or, as it turns out, part-Muggle) background because of where the diary *isn't* from, rather than where it *is* from. Of course, having said that, I must admit that -- even if she just picked some street in London to show that it wasn't a WW street -- it would be unlike JKR to miss a chance to turn her choice of street into a clue. ;-) - Derek From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Dec 22 21:02:46 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 21:02:46 -0000 Subject: Source of Riddle's Diary Solved In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87458 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: Carolyn: > It is also *really* peculiar to have the address of the newsagent > printed on the back of the diary. The name of the printer, yes, > that's normal, but *not* a newsagent. Very few newsagent's would be > big enough to have own-brand diaries even now, let alone in 1943. > As Geoff has pointed out, the only UK chain of newsagents big enough > to possibly have an own-brand diary range in 1943 is WH Smith. > However, this still makes no sense, as they would not print the > address of just one of their shops on the back of the diary, what > would appear there would be their company name, and possibly the > printer's name and address. > Geoff: A point which may be worth considering is that, for many years now, it has been possible to get diaries advertising your own organisation - possibly by stamping the cover or by additional printing on the title page. It could just be possible that the newsagent in question had some diaries done for advertising purposes or maybe for Christmas. I agree it was in wartime and there were paper restrictions but it might have been a way of reminding customers that they were still there and stopping locals ambling off to the bigger newsagents and stationers in Vauxhall or Waterloo or Brixton. Geoff From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Dec 22 21:11:25 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 21:11:25 -0000 Subject: Favorite OotP Chapter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87459 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "angela_glor" wrote: Angela: > The discussion of everyones favorite line made me wonder if everyone > has a favorite chapter. > Does anyone else have a chapter that stood out? Geoff: For me, "The Centaur and the Sneak", especially the latter part of the chapter with that marvellous confrontation scene in Dumbledore's office. From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Mon Dec 22 21:17:22 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:17:22 +1300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Male or Female In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031223101518.00a85b70@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 87460 At 15:00 22/12/2003 +0000, you wrote: >I am trying to remember if JKR has ever specified Blaize Zambini's >sex? I don't remember if she did, does anyone else? > >Kyntor Tanya wrote I checked out the book, there is nothing given away at the sorting. Here it is below And now there were only three people left to be sorted. "Thomas, Dean," a Black boy even taller than Ron, joined Harry at the Gryffindor table. "Turpin, Lisa," became a Ravenclaw and then it was Ron's turn. He was pale green by now. Harry crossed his fingers under the table and a second later the hat had shouted, "GRYFFINDOR!" Harry clapped loudly with the rest as Ron collapsed into the chair next to him. "Well done, Ron, excellent," said Percy Weasley Pompously across Harry as "Zabini, Blaise," was made a Slytherin. Professor McGonagall rolled up her scroll and took the Sorting Hat away. From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Mon Dec 22 21:22:45 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 16:22:45 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Favorite OotP Chapter Message-ID: <3817E38E.20C35497.4B073798@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87461 Definitely "Snape's Worst Memory". We get to see MWPP interacting with eachother, and we get a taste of what they do to Snape (*laughs gleefully* This helps my theory of James and Sirius as just like jocks today!). We see Vulnerable!Snape...which we don't see too often. Oryomai Quote of the moment: "Become who you were born to be." From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Mon Dec 22 21:27:28 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 16:27:28 -0500 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 8, The Hearing Message-ID: <700940CE.53D915A0.4B073798@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87462 Chapter 8: The Hearing Harry walks into the dungeon for his hearing and is shocked to discover that it is the same one he saw in Dumbledores Pensieve. Harry sits down in the chair covered with chains. The chains did not wrap around him (which we know is a good thing from the trials of Ludo Bagman and the Lestranges/Barty Crouch respectively). Harry learns fully what the Wizengamot is: a council of about fifty witches and wizards who will decide his fate. All wear plum colored robes with a silver W on them. Harry realizes that he only knows two of the people there: Cornelius Fudge and Percy Weasley. When Harry looks at Percy, Percy does not acknowledge his existence, this enforces Percys estrangement from his family. Fudge begins to list the charges and the people in attendance. We learn a few more names: Amelia Susan Bones and Dolores Jane Umbridge. Dumbledore comes to testify for Harry. Although Dumbledore is there, he does not look at Harry or acknowledge his existence. Most of the members of the Wizengamot look upset to see Dumbledore there, but two witches in the back row wave to him. Fudge is surprised to see Dumbledore because Fudge did not think Dumbledore was aware of the change in time and venue. Dumbledore conjures up a chair for himself and sits down to listen to the trial. Fudge seems to have lost his momentum with the arrival of Dumbledore. He reads the charges: using a Patronus Charm in a Muggle-inhabited area. Fudge starts to question Harry rapidly, he does not let Harry give more than yes and no answers. Harry becomes frustrated with Fudge and his line of questioning. Harry is interrupted by Madam Bones. She asks him if he made a corporeal Patronus. Some of the Wizengamot is impressed that Harry can produce a Patronus while still young. Harry tells them that Lupin taught him in his third year. Harry finally tells the Wizengamot that there were Dementors in Little Whinging. Fudge tries to laugh it off, and he tells the Wizengamot that he thought Harry would make up a story like that. Harry tries to make them believe his story. Dumbledore interrupts and says that Harry has the right to present a defense. Madam Bones backs him up. Percy goes to the hall and fetches Harrys witness - Mrs. Arabella Doreen Figg. Fudge is suspicious of her because they have no record of any other wizards in that area. She admits shes a Squib. The Wizengamot seems skeptical about whether or not Squibs can see Dementors; Mrs. Figg is indignant. When she first begins to describe them, it does not sound as if she has ever seen one in real life. Madam Bones is not very patient. When Mrs. Figg describes how they made her feel, the Wizengamot knows that she actually saw them. Fudge tries to play down her importance, but Madam Bones believes her. Fudge questions why Dementors would be in Little Whinging. Dumbledore suggests that they were sent there and implies that it was someone within the Ministry. We hear Dolores Jane Umbridge speak for the first time, and we learn of her high-pitched, girlish voice. Dumbledore banters back and forth with Umbridge and Fudge. Fudge guides everyone away from the topic of Dementors outside of Ministry control, and back to whether or not Harry is guilty. Dumbledore mentions Clause Seven of the Decree, which says that magic can be used in life threatening situations. Fudge says that he still doubts Dementors where there, and he says that he wants this trial over with as soon as possible. Dumbledore slyly accuses Fudge of wanting to expell Harry to make himself look good. They talk about the Hover Charm that Dobby did in Chamber of Secrets, and Dumbledore offers to summon Dobby there to testify. Dumbledore tells Fudge that the Ministry cannot punish students for misdemeanors at Hogwarts. Fudge tells Dumbledore that laws can be changed. Dumbledore accuses the Wizengamot of turning into a witch hunt (no pun intended). Madam Bones takes a vote for the verdict. Harry does not have time to count the hands in favor of innocence. Fudge and Umbridge both vote for guilty, but they are outnumbered. Harry is acquitted! Questions (in no particular order): 1. Was it really pure luck that Dumbledore happened to arrive at the Ministry early enough to make the trial, or was he notified by someone? 2. Does Dumbledore help or hurt Harrys case by throwing accusations at the Ministry? 3. Is there only one dungeon used for trials? Are all trials for adults held there? Does that make the scheduling of such trials hard since there is only one governing body? Would it be better for justice if the Wizengamot was split into smaller groups? 4. Does this scene support EvilGit!Percy? He does not even acknowledge that Harry is in the room, or that he knows Harry. Or does this support SpyfortheOrder!Percy? 5. Is Percys attendance at the trial a part of Evil!Fudges plot to further separate Percy from his family and friends? 6. Was it entirely legal for Professor Lupin to teach Harry the Patronus Charm? In the Ministrys eyes, I mean. 7. How exactly does one become a member of the Wizengamot? 8. Do they have to buy those robes themselves? :-D 9. How long did Dumbledore feel Lord Voldemort could sense the connection between himself and Harry? Dumbeldore does not look at/talk to Harry in this scene. 10. Will this make Harry an anarchist of sorts? Like on Buffy when Buffy said, Theyre in England. They cant tell which way my back is facing. Will Harry turn his back on the Fudge-run Ministry? Oryomai "But raising an heir Could never compare To raising a bit of hell!" From amani at charter.net Mon Dec 22 21:24:17 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 16:24:17 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's greatest fear References: Message-ID: <003f01c3c8d1$f51c52a0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87463 its_a_monstertrucker: I think it's implausible that Hermione, even in PoA, could imagine nothing scarier than failing classes. Most likely she made up a lie about the boggart being McG, because she was too embarrassed to admit what her boggart really looked like. Perhaps we'll find out her greatest fear in book 6 or 7. Taryn: I don't think her fear should be taken exactly literally. I think her greatest fear is failure in itself. However, failure is an idea more than a physical presence, so the boggart probably took the most current fear about it and used that. It's very plausible to think of Hermione's greatest fear being just failure in general, which I believe it is. ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Dec 22 22:02:33 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 22:02:33 -0000 Subject: Fidelius swap was Re: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87464 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > I think Sirius considered himself the match of Voldemort in > cleverness and far more clever than the Death Eaters. I'm sure > Sirius considered himself quite clever enough to elude the > Death Eaters for as long as necessary, IMO, and he might well > have been right about that. After all, he eluded the far more > numerous aurors for two whole years, and they were no nearer > catching him when he died. > Kneasy: Back to my old game of trying to get the Siriophiles to see the light. Recall that in this hypothetical case Voldy and his hench-whatsits would have been concentrating on Sirius, probably to the exclusion of everything else. Top priority stuff. Recall that at this time the DEs were about at full strength and were getting a lot of co-operation in the WW, be it willing or unwilling. Voldy was in his pomp; he seemed to be winning. Moody and a few other Aurors were able to catch or kill a few, but the real harvest didn't happen until after Godrics Hollow. Sirius is entrusted with the duties of Secret Keeper. Only he can tell people how to contact the Potters. He then passes this duty over to Peter. Who knows? Sirius, Peter and presumably James. If anyone from the Order wants to contact the Potters who will they look for? Sirius. So far as anyone is aware he is still the link man. He vanishes into hiding. What then? Concern throughout the Order. What has happened to Sirius? Has Voldy got him? How can we save the Potters? Is it too late? Peter would have to publicise the fact that he is now the Secret Keeper to allay all the fears - thus defeating the object of the enterprise. No wishful thinking that DD would know everything, please; that's a cop out. It's a bloody awful plan when viewed coldly. OK, it works as a plot device because Peter is a traitor, though I think there's more to come on the Godrics Hollow affair. But the whole idea is just about up to (down to?) Sirius' standard. Ill thought out, consequences not considered and guess what? Sirius ends up centre stage. Oh, what bravery! What self-sacrifice! Cobblers. Sirius may consider himself as an equal to Voldy - no-one else would. He thinks he's smart, but instead he's too clever by half. A disaster waiting to happen. Pippin: > Any spy who is close to Dumbledore would have to be an > Occlumens to be successful. If Dumbledore ever believed that > Sirius was the spy, he must have thought him capable of > Occlumency, at least. > Kneasy: Not certain of your point here. Did DD consider Sirius to be a spy? Ever? I don't believe so. He did perhaps believe that Sirius was a murderer (13 muggles and Peter) and that's why he never intervened when Sirius was sent to Azkaban. No, I think DD knew damned well who the spy was - and deliberately did nothing. He needed Weapon!Harry to be created as per the Prophesy. Just in case there was Voldy -The Return. If he'd even suspected that Sirius had been the spy would he have allowed him to go anywhere near Harry immediately after James and Lily were killed? Unlikely. DD was playing his cards close to his chest - again. Pippin: > Listen to the Centaurs, Kneasy. Sirius died because he was > *innocent*. The villains die in the last ditch, because there's no > story without them. > Kneasy: I don't wholly trust the Centaurs either - or rather I won't take their words at face value. Too obscure and mystic to be certain of exactly what they mean when they spout their high-flown phrases. Straight from the horse's mouth it isn't. From entropymail at yahoo.com Mon Dec 22 22:07:43 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 22:07:43 -0000 Subject: Neville's talent now revealed in the next book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87465 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Diana" wrote: > I get the impression that Neville's grandmother wanted Neville > to use his father's wand in order to try to get Neville to carry on > with his father's legacy (great wizard, powerful auror, etc.) and > the wand was a way of helping Neville remain close to his dad in a > small way. > It's entirely possible that Neville will greatly improve in his > magic abilities NOT because he gets a new wand that's a 'proper > fit', but because he won't have the legacy of his dad (in the form > of his dad's wand) hanging over him at every moment making him feel > inadequate by comparison. His family has obviously accentuated > his "lack of magical ability" frequently and talked about it in > front of Neville for years. Neville knows he's a disappointment to > his relatives and knows they don't feel he comes even close to his > mom or dad as a wizard. I think Neville's going to be a big surprise in the next book. I believe he's going to floor everyone with his magical ability, as a result of his better-fit of a wand and his new-found confidence. After all, both of his parents were talented wizards. It just follows that Neville would be, too. That is, unless someone (Gran, of course) was somehow trying to squash his development. I think Gran's going to have something to say about these new developments. I've believed for a while that Gran's been sabotaging Neville's activities all along; not because she is ESE!Gran, but because she's decided that keeping Neville in the dark is a good way of keeping him under Voldemort's radar. After all, why would Voldemort bother going after a squib? Perhaps Neville will even show Voldie that he actually possesses powers "of which he knows not..."! :: Entropy :: From drednort at alphalink.com.au Mon Dec 22 22:09:19 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:09:19 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Source of Riddle's Diary Solved In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FE8063F.8676.57CC29@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 87466 On 22 Dec 2003 at 21:02, Geoff Bannister wrote: > Geoff: > A point which may be worth considering is that, for many years now, > it has been possible to get diaries advertising your own > organisation - possibly by stamping the cover or by additional > printing on the title page. > > It could just be possible that the newsagent in question had some > diaries done for advertising purposes or maybe for Christmas. I agree > it was in wartime and there were paper restrictions but it might have > been a way of reminding customers that they were still there and > stopping locals ambling off to the bigger newsagents and stationers > in Vauxhall or Waterloo or Brixton. That seems somewhat attractive to me - I can actually see that happening, maybe as an expression of the "business-as-usual" attitude that was fairly well known during the Blitz. The Vauxhall area was bombed - and I think I can see a patriotic newsagent deliberately printing up those diaries as a kind of statement - despite the bombing, we're still here. Despite the bombing, we will remain here. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From kcawte at ntlworld.com Tue Dec 23 06:30:35 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 22:30:35 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fidelius swap was Re: The Sorting Hat References: Message-ID: <005501c3c91e$464b7ce0$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87467 > > Kneasy: > Back to my old game of trying to get the Siriophiles to see the light. > > Recall that in this hypothetical case Voldy and his hench-whatsits > would have been concentrating on Sirius, probably to the exclusion > of everything else. Top priority stuff. Recall that at this time the DEs > were about at full strength and were getting a lot of co-operation > in the WW, be it willing or unwilling. Voldy was in his pomp; he > seemed to be winning. Moody and a few other Aurors were able to > catch or kill a few, but the real harvest didn't happen until after > Godrics Hollow. > > Sirius is entrusted with the duties of Secret Keeper. Only he can > tell people how to contact the Potters. He then passes this duty > over to Peter. Who knows? Sirius, Peter and presumably James. > If anyone from the Order wants to contact the Potters who will > they look for? Sirius. So far as anyone is aware he is still the link > man. He vanishes into hiding. What then? Concern throughout > the Order. What has happened to Sirius? K But Sirius wasn't going to go into hiding as far as we know. He certainly *didn't* go into hiding. Peter was the one who would go into hiding with Sirius' plan whereas Sirius would stay out of hiding and trying to keep out of the way of the Death Eaters. Presumably he could spend a lot of time at wherever the OoP headquarters were so the order would know where he was anyway - and if he was going to go into hiding, then presumably the Order would know that, there wouldn't be any reason for him to not tell them he was going to hide. He might not tell them *where* he was going to hide but I doubt he'd just vanish without a word to anyone. I don't understand why you dislike Sirius so much - please explain why you keep going to such convoluted lengths to claim he's stupid (which he doesn't seem to be) or cowardly or selfish or any of the other adjectives you keep applying to him. i do agree that post-Azkaban he acted erratically, but that's hardly surprising. And once he was back at Grimmauld Place he seems to exhibit most of the symptoms of clinical depression, along with some confusion concerning Harry - which again is understandable. He's never really had the time to adjust to James' death and now he is trying to replace his best friend with Harry. Having said that of course if people had listened to him and actually filled Harry in on what was happening OoP would have turned out very differently. And as for all this effort to blame everything on Sirius - what are James, Lily and Peter in all this - uninvolved bystanders? Peter admittedly isn't going to say anything about this plan - regardless of whether he thinks it's clever or not because it all hinges on making him Secret Keeper which as a spy he obviously thinks is a great plan. But James and Lily are both responsible, reasonably intelligent adults, so even if the plan was stupid (which JKR obviously didn't think or she wouldn't have had someone we're supposed to like and think of as a hero come up with it), which no one in the know seems to have thought it was (at no point when told about what really happened does *any* character comment on it not being a great plan) it's not Sirius' responsibility. He didn't impose this plan on James - James and Lily obviously agreed with it or it wouldn't have happened. While he says it was his idea he didn't force them at gunpoint to change Secret Keepers. In fact this is one of the things Sirius really needed to accept to alleviate his overwhelming guilt - the fact that he was not responsible for James and Lily's deaths any more than they were. Had Peter not been a spy then conceivably everything would have been fine - unfortunately they all decided to trust the wrong person. What I want to know is how long they were in hiding before Peter ratted (pun intended) them out? The prophesy was made, I thought, before Harry's birth, yet he is 15 months old when the Potters are killed. Does this mean they waited until then to go into hiding? And if so why? Why wasn't Voldemort a danger to them until then? And were the Longbottoms in hiding? They certainly weren't by the time the Lestranges came for them - but they could have come out of hiding after Voldemort's fall. K From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Mon Dec 22 22:39:09 2003 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 22:39:09 -0000 Subject: Male or Female In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87468 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kyntor70" wrote: > I am trying to remember if JKR has ever specified Blaize Zambini's > sex? I don't remember if she did, does anyone else? > > Kyntor Hi, Here in France, "Blaise" is a male name. Iris From rayheuer3 at aol.com Mon Dec 22 22:40:22 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 17:40:22 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter Discussions: Chapter 8, The Hearing Message-ID: <9a.65ae6.2d18ccd6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87469 In Oryomai's fine summary she states: "Fudge is suspicious of her because they have no record of any other wizards in that area. She admits she?s a Squib. The Wizengamot seems skeptical about whether or not Squibs can see Dementors; Mrs. Figg is indignant. When she first begins to describe them, it does not sound as if she has ever seen one in real life. Madam Bones is not very patient. When Mrs. Figg describes how they made her feel, the Wizengamot knows that she actually saw them." A quibble from Ray: seeing may not be the correct term. If we accept that non-wizards (including Squibs) cannot see Dementors, and Mrs. Figgs description seems to bear this out, then her testimony establishes that she was in the presence of a Dementor, not that she necessarily saw one. Dudley also felt the Dementor's presence, and while some have theorized that Dudley is a wizard/squib, there is nothing in the canon to support this (yet). Now to the questions: 1. Was it really pure luck that Dumbledore happened to arrive at the Ministry early enough to make the trial, or was he notified by someone? Dumbledore didn't get where he was by being easily outwitted. He probably anticipated Fudge pulling exactly this kind of stunt, and showed up at "Open of Business". However, there were the "two witches in the back row" who waved - either of both may have tipped off Dumbledore. 3. Is there only one dungeon used for trials? Are all trials for adults held there? Does that make the scheduling of such trials hard since there is only one governing body? Would it be better for justice if the Wizengamot was split into smaller groups? There's probably only the one chamber for the Wizengamot. It is implied that at most (meetings? trials? teas?) only a few wizards show up. The entire Wizengamot being present is noted as an infrequent occurance. There are probably other rooms where less formal fact-findings take place. 4. Does this scene support EvilGit!Percy? He does not even acknowledge that Harry is in the room, or that he knows Harry. Or does this support SpyfortheOrder!Percy? Yes. IMHO, it just supports my "Bumbling Dunderhead - The Next Generation" theory. 5. Is Percy?s attendance at the trial a part of Evil!Fudge?s plot to further separate Percy from his family and friends? Something very strange is happening here... Percy is being given authority far beyond what his status as an employee with virtualkly no seniority would justify. One wild theory would be that the Weasley name carries a lot of weight at the Ministry, but Arthur Weasley is held in low regard, especially by the faction that supports Fudge and opposes Dumbledore. 6. Was it entirely legal for Professor Lupin to teach Harry the Patronus Charm? In the Ministry?s eyes, I mean. I suspect it's more a matter of timing. All of the OWL students were required to perform the spell, so one can interpret for this that the Charm *is* part of the normal curriculum. 10. Will this make Harry an anarchist of sorts? Like on Buffy when Buffy said, ?They?re in England. They can?t tell which way my back is facing.? Will Harry turn his back on the Fudge-run Ministry? I am of the opinion that Fudge's days as MoM are numbered. Exactly who would replace him is an interesting question. I'm hoping for Lockhart :-) I may have an extended answer to question 9 at a later time. The answer I am mentally formulating will take some research. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From t.forch at mail.dk Mon Dec 22 23:09:57 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 00:09:57 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Male or Female In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20031223000505.02751aa0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 87470 At 22:39 22-12-03 +0000, iris_ft wrote: >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kyntor70" >wrote: > > I am trying to remember if JKR has ever specified Blaize Zambini's > > sex? I don't remember if she did, does anyone else? > >Hi, >Here in France, "Blaise" is a male name. As it were for Merlin's teacher (or scribe - depending of which version of the Arthurian legendarium you choose). That makes one certain male named Blaise with a strong connection to the British magical community, and one famous male named Blaise (Pascal). I have heard (in this very connection) of women called Blaise, but I still can't imagine it as a female name - there was never any doubt in my mind (I wonder how much this is influenced by Modesty Blaise ;-) Troels Forchhammer From rredordead at aol.com Mon Dec 22 23:08:33 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 23:08:33 -0000 Subject: Fidelius swap was Re: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87471 Pippin wrote: > I think Sirius considered himself the match of Voldemort in > Cleverness and far more clever than the Death Eaters. I'm sure > Sirius considered himself quite clever enough to elude the > Death Eaters for as long as necessary, IMO, and he might well > have been right about that. After all, he eluded the far more > numerous aurors for two whole years, and they were no nearer > catching him when he died. Mandy here: I think Sirius may have though himself a match for the DE's but Voldemort! I don't think even Sirius was that arrogantly stupid. Oh, he was both arrogant and stupid as well as immature but come on, if Sirius believed himself a match for LV, and was a `brave' as so many wrongly believe imo, he would have gone after Voldemort personally to protect his best friend. > Pippin wrote: > I don't think either James or Sirius ever considered what would > happen if Sirius got caught, because Sirius never planned to be > taken alive. He says that he would have died rather than betray > Peter, and I'm sure both he and James believed that. Mandy here: If that is true, it's another example of how naive Sirius was. The statement that he would rather die than betray his friends are words that come from the mouth of someone who has nothing to loose. No family: no wife, no children, no parents. It's easy to take that stand when the only person who may be threatened by your bravery, is the very person you are trying to protect, in Sirius' case James Potter. Given the choice between James Potter and Peter or Remus, Sirius would choose James with out thinking twice. Lupin and I believe Peter (except we have no canon to support this yet) had families. If I was being tortured for the where abouts of my friend and my loved ones were threatened; I'd choose my family. Sirius was the best choice for Secret Keeper because he had nothing to loose and was extremely loyal to his friend James. Anyone could see that Peter and Remus were weaker choices simply because they would be more likely to break under LV. For Sirius to refuse this job was insane. Dumbledore would never have approved. I can't imagine what Sirius was doing other than surrendering to his fear. Pippin wrote: > Sirius's idea, IMO, was that he would lead the DE's a merry > chase, deliberately draw their fire, and force them to waste time > and resources hunting him. Mandy here: Very romantic and something that might come from Dumbledore but I don't believe that was Sirius idea at all. If he truly believed he was a match for LV he would have taken on the job of secret keeper and led the DE's on a chase. > Kneasy wrote: > Besides, I don't think Sirius is a real 'goodie' anyway. That's > why he had to die. Pippin replied: > Listen to the Centaurs, Kneasy. Sirius died because he was > *innocent*. The villains die in the last ditch, because there's no > story without them. Mandy wrote: The only crime Sirius was innocent of was the murder of 13 people. He died because he was guilty of betraying his best friend and responsible for James and Lily's murder. Sirius knew this. It's why he was so desperately trying to make up to Harry all the time. It's why he resigned in the end. Guilt hung around Sirius neck like a millstone. He was one of the good guys for a brief shining moment. Between the times he left his family and betrayed James Potter. Ofcourse he didn't mean to betray James but he did. It is what makes for great tragedy. Mandy From kcawte at ntlworld.com Tue Dec 23 07:29:02 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 23:29:02 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fidelius swap was Re: The Sorting Hat References: Message-ID: <000901c3c926$704a8ce0$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87472 > Mandy here: > Very romantic and something that might come from Dumbledore but I > don't believe that was Sirius idea at all. If he truly believed he > was a match for LV he would have taken on the job of secret keeper > and led the DE's on a chase. > K and if he was quite as arrogant as you think he would have. However while he muight be willing to risk his own life on that plan he wouldn't risk James, Lily and harry's so this way he was the one in danger from the DEs but if he failed to evade them then he didn't have the information to betray anyone and *couldn't* give the secret away. He says in the Shack that he was afraid he would break and therefore refused the job - how much *more* irresponsible it would have been to take the job of Secret Keeper when he believed that he would not be able to withstand Voldemort. > Mandy here: If that is true, it's another example of how naive Sirius was. The statement that he would rather die than betray his friends are words that come from the mouth of someone who has nothing to loose. No family: no wife, no children, no parents. It's easy to take that stand when the only person who may be threatened by your bravery, is the very person you are trying to protect, in Sirius' case James Potter. Given the choice between James Potter and Peter or Remus, Sirius would choose James with out thinking twice. Lupin and I believe Peter (except we have no canon to support this yet) had families. If I was being tortured for the where abouts of my friend and my loved ones were threatened; I'd choose my family. K I don't understand your point. Peter didn't betray them because of some loyalty to his family - he'd already been spying on them for a year. And even if Peter had been a good guy he would have already had to make the choice between James and this potential family of his *when he took the job*. If Peter wasn't willing to take the risks the job involved *then he shouldn't take it*. The job of secret keeper was to keep the secret at all costs - not to keep it right up until the cost became to high and then give in. If you don't think you can keep the secret you shouldn't take the job, oh but *wait* that's exactly what Sirius did - decline the job because he tdidn't think he couls have done it. So if Lupin or Pettigrew had refused the job because they were afraid Voldemort would find something (ie their families) to use aginst them that would have been perfectly sensible, but when Sirius does the same that's cowardly or stupid? > > Mandy wrote: > The only crime Sirius was innocent of was the murder of 13 people. > He died because he was guilty of betraying his best friend and > responsible for James and Lily's murder. Sirius knew this. It's why > he was so desperately trying to make up to Harry all the time. It's > why he resigned in the end. Guilt hung around Sirius neck like a > millstone. > K Feeling guilt does not necessarily mean that one is actually guilty of anything. Harry feels guilty over Cedric's death when it wasn't his fault. Where does this ridiculous belief that James and Lily were bound and gagged and therefore unable to stop Sirius switching with Peter come from. They were perfectly capable of saying 'no, we don't think this is a good plan', but they didn't. So they must have believed it would have worked - but that's alright because they were totally innocent and had no reason to think it wouldn't whereas Sirius should have known? The only thing the three of them are guilty of is misjudging their friend (Peter). If Sirius is guilty of betraying James and Lily then James is just as guilty of betraying Lily and Harry and vice versa for Lily because they agreed to it. Sirius feels guilty because he feels that if he hadn't suggested they use Peter then he would be dead and James and Lily alive, but he is not responsible for Peter's actions. Only Peter is. The only people responsible for James and Lily's deaths are Peter and Voldemort. K From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Dec 22 23:28:43 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 18:28:43 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Male or Female Message-ID: <17e.2499c1b4.2d18d82b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87473 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kyntor70" wrote: > I am trying to remember if JKR has ever specified Blaize Zambini's > sex? I don't remember if she did, does anyone else? > > Kyntor And Iris responded: >Hi, >Here in France, "Blaise" is a male name. > >Iris Now Sherrie pops in to add: In magical history, Blaise is also a masculine name - in various versions of the Arthurian legends, a character by that name is listed either as the scribe of Merlin, or as his master in spellcraft, a hermit in Northumberland. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Mon Dec 22 23:48:45 2003 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 23:48:45 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall= ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87474 Okay, what is following is probably completely irrelevant. However I'd like to know whether it has been debated yet. Here it is. I've been reading several messages from the thread concerning the source of Tom Riddle's diary. As I don't live in Great Britain, I don't know London, and I wanted to see where Vauxhall was, I wanted to get some information concerning that area. My Copernic searching engine provided me with 68 results, most of them dealing with Vauxhall Motors. I visited the official website of the firm (though I don't have a particular interest in cars), and I discovered that the emblem of Vauxhall is a griffin. If I remember well, the firm is also called "the griffin house". So that's my question; forgive me if it is off-topic, or if there's yet an answer in the archives: that "Vauxhall road" on the back of the diary, is it only a reference to a location? Could it be also an allusion to that griffin emblem, a kind of a joke based on the association of a name and a symbol? Tom Riddle, heir to Slytherin, consigned his sixteen years- old self memory in a small book that holds the same name as "the griffin house" I don't know what to think of it, and I'd be glad to read your opinions. Two Knuts, Amicalement, Iris From andie at knownet.net Tue Dec 23 02:07:34 2003 From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 02:07:34 -0000 Subject: Favorite OotP Chapter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87475 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "angela_glor" wrote: > The discussion of everyones favorite line made me wonder if everyone > has a favorite chapter. I've got to go with "The Only One He Ever Feared." There were so many things I loved about it. 1) Dumbledore is just so cool. I was really looking forward to the inevitable duel between Voldie & DD. It just gave me chills when DD calls Voldie Tom. You go DD. 2) I also liked Harry putting Bellatrix in her place. I know that he shouldn't have used the Cruciatus Curse and all, but I think it's an important clue about how the curses are done; plus, it forced Bellatrix to stop that baby talk. 3) It was interesting to see the relationship between Voldie & Bella. Their relationship radiated with sexual energy, not that that really is the case, as we know Bellatrix is married; however, they do seem... close. Ah, the pain of having to choose only one favorite chapter... :) Andrea Andrea From erikal at magma.ca Tue Dec 23 04:33:18 2003 From: erikal at magma.ca (Erika L.) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 22:33:18 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's greatest fear Message-ID: <016401c3c90d$e435e140$ed8b1a40@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 87477 its_a_monstertrucker suggested: >I think it's implausible that Hermione, >even in PoA, could imagine >nothing scarier than failing classes. >Most likely she made up a >lie about the boggart being McG, >because she was too >embarrassed to admit what her boggart >really looked like. Taryn replied: >I don't think her fear should be taken >exactly literally. I think her greatest >fear is failure in itself. However, >failure is an idea more than a physical >presence, so the boggart probably took >the most current fear about it and used >that. It's very plausible to think of >Hermione's greatest fear being just >failure in general, which I believe it >is. I agree with Taryn that it makes more sense to understand Hermione's greatest fear as failure itself. In fact, Hermione's boggart says nothing about her having failed exams: "--P--Professor McGonagall!' Hermione gasped, pointing into the trunk. "Sh--she said I'd failed everything!" (234 UK) The boggart says she's failed everything. Not all her classes, not all her exams, but _everything_. So, as Taryn suggests, I think it's safe to say that Hermione's fear is a more abstract one: the fear of failure. Just as Harry's fear of the Dementor!boggart is the fear of _fear_ (according to Lupin, PoA UK 117) rather than a specific cause of fear, so Hermione's boggart represents the fear of failure in general, not of failing at a specific thing such as classes or exams. Just my two knuts Erika (Wolfraven) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dreamz0007 at hotmail.com Mon Dec 22 22:06:03 2003 From: dreamz0007 at hotmail.com (Francesca Chubb-Confer) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 17:06:03 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Favorite OotP Chapter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87478 >Angela said: > The discussion of everyones favorite line made me wonder if everyone >has a favorite chapter. > > > >Does anyone else have a chapter that stood out? Career Advice, of course! :) Francesca _________________________________________________________________ Its our best dial-up Internet access offer: 6 months @$9.95/month. Get it now! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup From ShagsTheDustmop at hotmail.com Mon Dec 22 23:13:38 2003 From: ShagsTheDustmop at hotmail.com (Shags the Dustmop) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 17:13:38 -0600 Subject: Has Snape ever shown a bias against Hufflepuff? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87479 Canon question for y'all, it sounds a little random I know but here it is: Does anyone know whether in canon Snape ever shows a particular disdain for Hufflepuff? I know Malfoy does (too bad Draco wasn't sorted into Hufflepuff, then he'd have just gone home, right?) but does Snape ever actually say anything similar? I'm trying to work something into one of my fanfics and I need to know (hopefully without trying to speed read all five books) whether Snape ever overtly criticizes Hufflepuff House (other than just saying Slytherin is better, etc.). Thanks in advance! >From the fingers and mind of... ShagsTheDustmop www.ShagsTheDustmop.com _________________________________________________________________ Make your home warm and cozy this winter with tips from MSN House & Home. http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx From tim at marvinhold.com Tue Dec 23 00:21:10 2003 From: tim at marvinhold.com (Tim) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 00:21:10 -0000 Subject: Trelawney a future Voldemort Target? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87480 It seems to me that now that the prophecy has been destroyed, Voldemort may try to extract it from Trelawney. This by itself would explain why Dumbledore keeps her at Hogwarts. Has anybody else thought about this? Tim From nakedkali at yahoo.com Tue Dec 23 03:02:28 2003 From: nakedkali at yahoo.com (Sea Change) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 03:02:28 -0000 Subject: Ghosts and Their Powers In-Reply-To: <6e.35ed8058.2d0c833d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87481 LauraW wrote: [snipped by Sea Change] ...what if Nick, like Percy, has yet to show why he was put in Gryffindor. What if his most courageous act is yet to come? Sea Change responds: Maybe there are worse things to fear than death, and the event that resulted in NHNs near-beheading was part of it? Perhaps NHN has been plenty brave, just not about life. Laura W wrote: [snipped by Sea Change] What powers do ghosts have? They can talk and remember, so they could be used to deliver messages to locked places. Sea Change reponds: This is interesting, but there's a limitation, in that the ghosts we have seen seem to have specific haunts, so there are possibly perfectly un-locked places certain ghosts can't get to. LauraW speculates: [snipped by Sea Change] Could they carry something with them through the wall? Sea Change responds: Didn't Moaning Myrtle have control of the diary in her U-Bend? Not sure about this. Contrary evidence is that the reek of the deathday party doesn't decrease as the night goes on (or at least we don't know it does), so the ghosts aren't making off with the rotten essences that they waft through. [remainder of Laura Ws post snipped by Sea Change] Sea Change From catlady at wicca.net Tue Dec 23 03:46:12 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 03:46:12 -0000 Subject: OOP:Favorite Lines... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87482 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "angela_glor" wrote: > My favorite (and I don't have my book either) is from Kreacher in his > first scene. I like how he mutters his insults under his breath. It > makes me wonder why Dobby never thought of that -- if a house elf > mutters under his breath, then the house elf can say what is on his > mind. Better than banging a lamp on one's head, you think? I don't think the Malfoys would have stood for Dobby muttering insults to them under his breath (much less 'under his breath' but clearly audible). Surely they would have explicitly ordered him not to do that. From andie at knownet.net Tue Dec 23 03:47:33 2003 From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 03:47:33 -0000 Subject: Numerology Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87483 I posted this on OT-Chatter, but then thought... well, it just might be ON-T enought to be on the main list. :) Looking over my numerology book, I decided to figure out Harry's Destiny Number, or the number that reveals the lessons you will learn through your lifetime. Destiny number is based on someone's date of birth, and in Harry's case that was July 31st, 1980. That means that I added 0+7+3+1+1+9+8+0 = 11. While for most numerology numbers, you would continue adding to get a single digit, 11 is significant by itself, as is 22; therefore, instead of adding the 1+1 to get 2, you would simply keep the 11 as is. Here is what my book reveals about those with a Destiny Number of 11... "Because this number is composed of two Ones, these people are amply endowed with all the leadership qualities of Ones, and are resolutely determined to achieve whatever it is they set out to do. [For example, Harry is determined to get to the DoM to rescue Sirius, regardless of the difficulty in doing so.] What's more, they usually succeed, because they are prepared to take risks, and will work around the clock if necessary until they obtain their objective. [If I remember correctly, Harry was up all night studying for OWL's the night before the DoM battle.] This single-minded determination earns them a great deal of respect and acclaim from others. [DA members have immense respect for Harry and want him to know that whether he wants them there or not, they've got his back.] Warm and lively, they are popular and may have an enormous influence over the other people in their lives - Elevens are special. [Harry has always had enormous influence over the WW. He has always been 'special'.] They should beware of exploiting these attributes for selfish, materialistic, or idealistic purposes." [While I love Harry very much, I do have to admit that he is somewhat idealistic. He thinks he can save the world! Oh, wait... I guess he really can save the world. Oops, my mistake. :) ] Actual quotation taken from: Predicting Your Future: The Complete Book of Divination by: Jane Struthers So, what does everyone else think? This certainly does sound a lot like my favorite hero! :) Comments? Andrea From catlady at wicca.net Tue Dec 23 03:50:43 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 03:50:43 -0000 Subject: Grindelwald and Tom Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87484 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drjuliehoward" wrote: > I still am intrigued by the mention on the date on the back of DD's > chocolate frog that he defeated Grindelwald in 1945. I know many > have speculated that this either was Hitler or was connected to > WWII, and I agree to the latter. My question (and I have searched > the archives briefly but not all 87000ish!) is there a connection > between Grindelwald and Tom Riddle? Riddle was at Hogwarts at the > time, or immediately preceding. Could this be the reason TR/LV is > afraid only of DD? I just have a hard time accepting the > possibility that he simply was afraid of his Transfiguration > Teacher. There has been a great deal of speculation about whether there was a connection between Grindelwald and Tom Riddle, ranging from Grindelwald wasn't connected with Hitler at all, but was the Head of Slytherin House when Riddle was at school, to Riddle left school and sought out Grindelwald as a teacher and was there to witness the Dumbledore battle, to Grindelwald and Riddle were only two of a long succession of Dark Wizards who were in turn possessed by the soul of Very Evil!Salazar Slytherin. If Riddle was not associated with Grindelwald, he could have seen Dumbledore in action on some other occasion .... maybe even just a Duel of the Masters .... and seen enough power to be scared of it. From meriaugust at yahoo.com Tue Dec 23 04:19:38 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 04:19:38 -0000 Subject: Trelawney a future Voldemort Target? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87485 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tim" wrote: > It seems to me that now that the prophecy has been destroyed, Voldemort may try to > extract it from Trelawney. This by itself would explain why Dumbledore keeps her at > Hogwarts. > > Has anybody else thought about this? > > Tim I thought that this was why DD kept her there in the first place, but, then again, in PoA, she doesn't seem to have any memories of the "real" predictions she makes. If that's the case she may not be any good to LV and may not need protection. Maybe DD keeps her out of the goodness and inate compassion in his heart? Meri From lmccabe at sonic.net Tue Dec 23 04:56:16 2003 From: lmccabe at sonic.net (linda_mccabe) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 04:56:16 -0000 Subject: Trelawney a future Voldemort Target? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87486 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tim" wrote: > > It seems to me that now that the prophecy has been destroyed, > Voldemort may try to > > extract it from Trelawney. This by itself would explain why > Dumbledore keeps her at > > Hogwarts. > > > > Has anybody else thought about this? > > > > Tim > > I thought that this was why DD kept her there in the first place, > but, then again, in PoA, she doesn't seem to have any memories of > the "real" predictions she makes. If that's the case she may not be > any good to LV and may not need protection. Maybe DD keeps her out > of the goodness and inate compassion in his heart? > Meri There's always the method Voldemort employed in extracting information from the memory-charmed Bertha Jorkins: torture. I'm sure that he'd be able to get the information from her if he put his considerable talents to bear on it. And that is why I think that Dumbledore made sure that she stayed safely within the confines of Hogwarts and why Umbridge was instructed to try and get her removed from her position. You know, besides Trelawney being a right old fraud and all. Athena From lmccabe at sonic.net Tue Dec 23 05:53:12 2003 From: lmccabe at sonic.net (linda_mccabe) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 05:53:12 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 8, The Hearing In-Reply-To: <700940CE.53D915A0.4B073798@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87487 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: > Chapter 8: The Hearing Snips to portions that I wish to respond to: > Harry realizes that he only knows two of the people there: Cornelius Fudge and Percy Weasley. When Harry looks at Percy, Percy does not acknowledge his existence, this enforces Percy's estrangement from his family. Athena: Eh, I have a different take on this. I think that Percy is ignoring any personal relationship with Harry because he wants desperately to succeed. His career success will be in pleasing the Minister of Magic and he will sacrifice anyone to do so. That day it just happened to be Harry Potter. He would no sooner have smiled at Harry and tried to reassure him that all was going to work out for the best than he would have contradicted Minister Fudge as to how best to deal with the rumors that Voldemort had risen. No, Harry was on trial and the Minister wanted him fried. Percy was firmly in the Minister's camp because he felt that if he supports the Minister unquestioningly than he will be helping the future and security of the Wizarding World. Percy's big problem is that he doesn't realize that Fudge is a Voldemort sympathizer and puppet. So when Percy is helping Fudge, he's actually helping Voldemort. (snip) > Dumbledore comes to testify for Harry. Although Dumbledore is there, he does not look at Harry or acknowledge his existence. Most of the members of the Wizengamot look upset to see Dumbledore there, but two witches in the back row wave to him. Fudge is surprised to see Dumbledore because Fudge did not think Dumbledore was aware of the change in time and venue. Athena: This in and of itself signals to me that Fudge is Evil. I truly believe that the change in time and venue done without adequate notice was done to try and overwhelm Harry within the legal system and make it so that it would be impossible for him to get a fair trial. Without Dumbledore being there, I doubt that Harry would have been acquitted. Not with only his testimony which would have been interupted repeatedly and cut off by Fudge when it might turn to something that could be embarrassing for the Ministry. (snip) > > Harry finally tells the Wizengamot that there were Dementors in Little Whinging. Fudge tries to laugh it off, and he tells the Wizengamot that he thought Harry would make up a story like that. Harry tries to make them believe his story. > > Dumbledore interrupts and says that Harry has the right to present a defense. Madam Bones backs him up. (snip) Athena: And this is where I feel we see how things would have gone horribly if it had only been up to Harry to defend himself. He wouldn't have had that witness present and it would have simply have been his word against what Fudge said. That the dementors are firmly under the control of the Ministry, therefore none of them would have been there that night. Fudge's word against a child who had been made out to be a lunatic in the wizarding press, (thanks I'm sure to Fudge's pressure on The Daily Prophet.) > Fudge is suspicious of her because they have no record of any other wizards in that area. Athena: Does anyone else think the line about records of witches and wizards in Little Whinging had been closely monitored "given past events" is a bit suspicious? In the first chapter of the first book there were owls swooping overhead and past the Dursley's front window. This makes me think that there may have been some witches or wizards that were next door neighbors or lived close to the Dursleys prior to Harry coming to live with them. I wonder what that prior event was and how the magical people were then forcibly removed from the neighborhood. (snip) Dumbledore mentions Clause Seven of the Decree, which says that magic can be used in life threatening situations. Fudge says that he still doubts Dementors where there, and he says that he wants this trial over with as soon as possible. Dumbledore slyly accuses Fudge of wanting to expell Harry to make himself look good. (snip) Athena: Dumbledore also brings up that Fudge tried to overstep his authority by attempting to not only expel Harry, but to confiscate (he forgot to mention destroy) Harry's wand. This I think clearly points to Fudge working hand in glove with Voldemort. Getting Harry to be outside the protective confines of Hogwarts and be without his "brother wand" would be making the poor lad totally defenseless. Well, as defenseless as he was when he was a mere toddler and wandless and possessing no real magical ability. ;-) Trying to quickly expel Harry and destroy his wand, break wand now - ask questions later - seems to be running roughshod over any form of due process that would be present in the wizarding world justice system. I know, many of you are choking in your coffee at the mere mention of due process and justice in the Potterverse, but remember Buckbeak's case took alllll year looong. Given that as a counter example of the current legal system, it should seem that Harry would be allowed a hearing and an appeal before his wand was destroyed. > Questions (in no particular order): > > 1. Was it really pure luck that Dumbledore happened to arrive at the Ministry early enough to make the trial, or was he notified by someone? He may have been tipped off, but I am sure that he was there as soon as the Ministry doors opened in the morning, expecting this kind of shenanigans. As it was, Harry wasn't even properly notified even though it seems that Fudge knew that Arthur Weasley was going to bring him to the hearing. Another strike against Fudge. > > 2. Does Dumbledore help or hurt Harry's case by throwing accusations at the Ministry? He helps of course. The question of why Fudge is so hellbent on destroying the future of this young child has got to be weighing heavily on the minds of those in attendance. They also know Dumbledore for many decades and it is hard to erase all the good feelings towards such a man with a few weeks of bad and twisted headlines. Especially if you know the rag in question has made the Ministry itself look bad in order to sell copy. (Mayhem at the Ministry, post QWC anyone?) > > 3. Is there only one dungeon used for trials? Are all trials for adults held there? Does that make the scheduling of such trials hard since there is only one governing body? Would it be better for justice if the Wizengamot was split into smaller groups? I think because it was moved to that old courtroom that it is obvious that there are other venues for legal proceedings. Old Courtroom 10. That implies that there are at least nine other courtrooms and it it probably the site of the most notorious ones. And they hadn't been used in years, which was alarming for Arthur Weasley. To me that signifies that Fudge really wanted to put the screws to Harry and make it as damning as possible. It doesn't seem like the full body has really been called in a long time, so scheduling convenience shouldn't be a problem. > > 4. Does this scene support EvilGit!Percy? He does not even acknowledge that Harry is in the room, or that he knows Harry. Or does this support SpyfortheOrder!Percy? To me Percy is just lusting for personal advancement and is blind to anything else. Same as his later scene in Dumbledore's office where Percy played Fudge's laugh track. The nose on Percy must be covered with a nice layer of brown frosting. Nah, to me FIE, but Percy is very ambitious and incredibly naive. > > 5. Is Percy's attendance at the trial a part of Evil!Fudge's plot to further separate Percy from his family and friends? I don't think it furthered that plot necessarily, but was the first time that we as readers got to see how Percy had sided with his ambitions rather than his loyalty to his family. I do with that Jo had found a way to show the argument between Percy and his parents and how he turned his back on them, rather than having us be told about it afterwards when it was fait accompli. > > 6. Was it entirely legal for Professor Lupin to teach Harry the Patronus Charm? In the Ministry's eyes, I mean. I don't know that it was illegal. I think they were terribly surprised that a thirteen year old was powerful enough to be able to conjure one. I think that it is NEWT level magic and they were surprised that a fifteen year old (let alone a thirteen year old) could be able to perform that bit of magic. Probably many of them can't even do it themselves. > > 7. How exactly does one become a member of the Wizengamot? > It's not what you know or how much you know, it's who you know. ;-) > 8. Do they have to buy those robes themselves? :-D Nah, put it on the Ministry's tab. > > 9. How long did Dumbledore feel Lord Voldemort could sense the connection between himself and Harry? Dumbeldore does not look at/talk to Harry in this scene. I think with the look of triumph in Dumbledore's face at the end of GoF. Otherwise, Dumbledore had not communicated with Harry and he really didn't seem to get much intelligence from others as to how Harry was feeling. It may have been from Snape's reports but somehow, I wonder... > > 10. Will this make Harry an anarchist of sorts? Like on Buffy when Buffy said, They're in England. They can't tell which way my back is facing.??? Will Harry turn his back on the Fudge-run Ministry? Oh, I wouldn't trust Fudge as far as I could throw him. The ending of OotP did not show that Fudge was good but simply incompetent. I think with the Ministry being wide open for all the Death Eaters, Voldemort, Dumbledore, Sirius Black and a passel load of school kids to just waltz inside without any security stopping them - that it signals that there was some complicity going on. And personally, I think all it took was Lucius jangling some more gold in the direction of Cornelius and saying, "leave it all unlocked tonight and tell everyone to take the night off - no questions asked." Otherwise, why would the most wanted wizards, (Sirius, Dumbledore, Voldemort and the other escaped Azkaban prisoners) be able to enter that establishment? Nah, Fudge is evil. Don't trust that governmental body until the Aegean stables are cleaned. Athena (I haven't been back here in so long, but saw some questions to answer and hope that my thoughts aren't terribly pedestrian rehashes.) From derek at rhinobunny.com Tue Dec 23 05:38:26 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 21:38:26 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Trelawney a future Voldemort Target? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031222213459.02872a70@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87488 meriaugust wrote: >in PoA, she doesn't seem to have any memories of >the "real" predictions she makes. If that's the case she may not be >any good to LV and may not need protection. Maybe DD keeps her out >of the goodness and inate compassion in his heart? Derek: I suspect it's a combination of two things. One is the goodness of his heart. He doesn't want to see her tortured to reveal information that she, after all, cannot reveal (because she doesn't remember it). Two, I think he's keeping her under wraps in case she makes additional useful prophecies. If she were to make another prophecy about LV and HP, and only HP's side got to hear it, that would give their side a definite advantage. - Derek From AllieS426 at aol.com Tue Dec 23 06:07:53 2003 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 06:07:53 -0000 Subject: Lupin FAQ Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87489 Does anyone know if a Remus Lupin "fantastic posts" is in the works? He seems to be one of the only major (or at least well- discussed) characters without one. Allie From lmccabe at sonic.net Tue Dec 23 06:12:38 2003 From: lmccabe at sonic.net (linda_mccabe) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 06:12:38 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Mirror In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87490 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, helenhorsley at h... wrote: > cubs9911 wrote: > > I was wondering today what the purpose > > will be of the mirror that Sirius gave to Harry. > > I wonder if anyone thinks that Harry will need > > this sometime in the future. He never got a > > chance to use it and I dont think that JKR would > > put it there for no other reason than for Harry to > > regret never using it. Any ideas. > > Now dorapye: > I assumed the mirror was actually just a plot device, to present > an 'if only...' to the reader. *If only* Harry had opened the > present earlier, had used it to contact Sirius after the vision of > LV torturing him in the DoM...then he would have been able to see > Sirius was at home, perfectly safe, tending the injured Buckbeak; he > would have evaded the treacherous Kreacher, not have had to use > Umbridge's fireplace, not have been caught by the evil old hag, not > have nearly killed his best friends in his mercy mission to rescue > his godfather and not have lost Sirius for good...if only he had not > forgotten Sirius's present, it all might have been avoided and > Sirius might still be alive... > Athena: That was my reaction. I felt like it was there to be done to yank tears from the reader, but as for me - it made me livid. I thought it was a terrible prop that did not fulfill its purpose. That's because I don't think it works with the characterization of Sirius Black. First off, if Sirius had such a magical device he wouldn't have given it to Harry in the manner in which he did. He knew that the owl post and the Floo network was being monitored at Hogwarts. There was no other way that the two of them could safely communicate. If the two way mirror worked the way that Sirius said it did, then he would have given it to Harry and said, "Ten o'clock tonight, find a safe secluded place and call out my name. We'll talk everynight and I'll even see if I can't help you a bit with your homework." Later when Harry went through the trouble of contacting Sirius by Umbridge's fire, he should have said, "Harry, why didn't you just use the mirror I gave you? I mean, I think risks are fun and all, but I did give you something so you could talk with me." I just thought it was a terrible, terrible prop that I don't think will come to bear later on like the gift knife from Sirius did. I do wonder however how Snape was able to safely communicate with members of the OotP after he learned from Harry about Sirius being "taken captive." Did they also have two way mirrors? Anyway, as a reader and lover of drama I categorically reject that prop. I do not think it follow Chekhov's Gun rule and instead I think it violates it. (I know, how much longer would the book have been if we saw Harry talking with Sirius every night. But at least then we might have gotten to see Sirus giving Harry "The Talk." Now who's going to do it? Lupin? Arthur? Uncle Vernon? :shudders: Athena From derek at rhinobunny.com Tue Dec 23 05:53:04 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 21:53:04 -0800 Subject: Grindelwald and Grendel (was Re: Grindelwald and Tom Riddle) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031222214012.027f7ec0@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87491 drjuliehoward wrote: >I still am intrigued by the mention on the date on the back of DD's >chocolate frog that he defeated Grindelwald in 1945. Derek: While I think the dating of 1945 makes a connection between Grindelwald and Hitler likely, I've also wondered if "Grindel"wald could be related to Grendel from the epic of Beowulf. Since Grendel was a monster (at times referred to as a demon), I wonder if "Grindelwald" could mean something like "Monster of the Forest" or "Demon of the Forest." It's also intriguing that one of Dumbledore's names is "Wulf"ric, and it was Beo"wulf" who defeated Grendel. LV also seems to have a connection to forests. We encounter him more than once in PS in the Dark Forest near Hogwarts. He hides out in "the forests of Albania" more than once. When Harry enounters him in GoF, they're in a wooded cemetery. I suspect that Tom Riddle may simply be the latest of multiple dark wizards to be taken over by some evil serpent spirit. Perhaps it seeks out wizards of o'erweening ambition and offers them power in exchange for their soul, so to speak. "Grindelwald" may have been another, as might Salazar Slytherin. Remember, the accounts we've heard of the founding of Hogwarts says the founders got along at first, but later Slytherin left. Perhaps he wasn't too bad at first, but got worse after his dark side ran away with him and he hooked up with this demon serpent. Y'know, "Snape" sounds disturbingly close to "Snake"... ;) - Derek From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Dec 23 07:41:13 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 07:41:13 -0000 Subject: Male or Female In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87492 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kyntor70" wrote: > I am trying to remember if JKR has ever specified Blaize Zambini's > sex? I don't remember if she did, does anyone else? > > Kyntor Geoff: As a former Maths teacher, my reaction would be that the pupil was male because my first thought is of Blaise Pascal whose name is remembered in such things as Pascal's Triangle among others. From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Dec 23 07:50:27 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 07:50:27 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall= ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87493 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "iris_ft" wrote: Iris: > Okay, what is following is probably completely irrelevant. However > I'd like to know whether it has been debated yet. Here it is. > I've been reading several messages from the thread concerning the > source of Tom Riddle's diary. As I don't live in Great Britain, I > don't know London, and I wanted to see where Vauxhall was, I wanted > to get some information concerning that area. My Copernic searching > engine provided me with 68 results, most of them dealing with > Vauxhall Motors. I visited the official website of the firm (though > I don't have a particular interest in cars), and I discovered that > the emblem of Vauxhall is a griffin. If I remember well, the firm is > also called "the griffin house". > So that's my question; forgive me if it is off-topic, or if there's > yet an answer in the archives: that "Vauxhall road" on the back of > the diary, is it only a reference to a location? Could it be also an > allusion to that griffin emblem, a kind of a joke based on the > association of a name and a symbol? Tom Riddle, heir to Slytherin, > consigned his sixteen years- old self memory in a small book that > holds the same name as "the griffin house" I don't know what to > think of it, and I'd be glad to read your opinions. > Geoff: The district of Vauxhall is in Central London. It lies on the south bank of the Thames about a mile upstream from Westminster and the Houses of Parliament and is also the first station on the main line out of Waterloo to the South. Vauxhall Motors are based in Luton, about 50 miles north of London producing Vauxhall cars and Bedford trucks but...... wait for it.... Carolyn turned up links between Vauxhall in London and the Luton situation which also drew in the griffin. Her research is revealed in message 86957 which is of great interest in the Vauxhall Road debate. Geoff From nakedkali at yahoo.com Tue Dec 23 03:54:00 2003 From: nakedkali at yahoo.com (Sea Change) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 03:54:00 -0000 Subject: How's Harry going to learn the curses? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87494 TravellerRose wrote: > Yes, and remember that Dumbledore says that there are worse things > than death, and that not realising that is one of Voldemort's biggest > mistakes. [minor snip by Sea Change] Sea Change responds: I like this. Hermione has vanquished Rita Skeeter by capturing her in a jar. Harry could reduce Volemort back to his smoky remnant form, and then drop the jar (or whatever) into the Mariannas Trench! Sea Change From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Tue Dec 23 04:52:53 2003 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 04:52:53 -0000 Subject: (was: The Sorting Hat) In-Reply-To: <001101c3c6f6$624a0b20$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87495 Kathryn wrote: > I wasn't saying they should have known the truth - I was arguing with > someone who said he was aware of the dangers. I was just pointing out that > he wasn't, not saying he should have been. Yolanda here: Okay. I get what you're saying, but I think that he was aware of the danger. I know that goes somewhat counter to what I posted last time, but I forgot the part where Hermione asks Harry what if "You-Know-Who" is there. Harry says that he got lucky before maybe he will again, so Harry *is* aware that he could end up facing off against Voldemort. Also, whether Voldemort shows up or not, he would still have had to deal with Professor Snape (that's who they thought was the villain). Harry's mission was to get to the stone first, but he was aware that he might have to go up against an older, more skilled, possibly more powerful dark wizard and worse maybe his master, Voldemort, as well. I do agree that Harry isn't as scared as Ron or Neville in many cases, but that isn't because he's not aware of the danger. I do get the impression that Harry was scared when he went after the PS/SS. He simply, courageously works past his fear. Just because he decides to go after it and does so, doesn't mean he didn't realize what he was doing or that he wasn't scared while doing it. Kathryn wrote: > > I think that their main motivation, certainly Hermione's main motivation, > was that Harry was going and they didn't want to force him to go alone. I'm > not saying they always blindly follow him but rather that in any case where > they think he might get into trouble and they could help him out they're not > going to make him do it on his own even if they do have doubts about the > wisdom of his actions. Had Harry not gone, they wouldn't have, hence my > argument that they were only going because Harry was. Frankly I think Harry > should be made to dwell on the fact that if he does something dangerous the > others are likely to be right alongside him regardless of how sensible they > think the course of action is - it might make him think first and act second > as opposed to his usual modus operandi. (which to be fair isn't an unusual > way for a teenage boy to act). > > K Yolanda here: I think Harry is aware that his friends will follow him into danger. I also feel that that won't stop him from going, because he feels that he has to. In PS/SS, he wouldn't allow Voldemort to get the stone and endanger the entire WW just because he didn't want Ron and Hermione to get hurt. I agree that Harry could think more before he acts, but his tendency to jump into danger can not be tempered by worrying about his friends. He does worry about them and himself too for that matter, but he doesn't let that stop him. Actually, I think that's a good thing. I, and many others, believe Harry is going to lead. JKR already had him leading the D.A. in OOtP. We know his future will involve leading others in the fight against evil. His ability to analyze the situation, make a decision, then despite the danger to himself and others follow through with that decision will be necessary. Yolanda From derek at rhinobunny.com Tue Dec 23 08:55:20 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 00:55:20 -0800 Subject: Percy's nose (was Re: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 8, The Hearing) In-Reply-To: References: <700940CE.53D915A0.4B073798@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031223004609.0262d4a0@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87496 linda_mccabe wrote: >To me Percy is just lusting for personal advancement and is blind to >anything else. Same as his later scene in Dumbledore's office where >Percy played Fudge's laugh track. The nose on Percy must be covered >with a nice layer of brown frosting. Derek: Heh. Literally! From OotP Chapter 27 (page 619 in the U.S. edition): [begin quoted section] "Weasley!" cried Fudge, now positively quivering with delight, "Weasley, have you written it all down, everything he's said, his confession, have you got it?" "Yes, sir, I think so, sir!" said Percy eagerly, whose nose was splattered with ink from the speed of his note-taking. [end quoted section] Back to Derek: Chortle! Was that *brown* ink, I have to wonder?? :-D - Derek (who, for the record, thinks Percy is being controlled and/or possibly impersonated by Peter Pettigrew.) From lovefromhermione at yahoo.com Tue Dec 23 06:52:53 2003 From: lovefromhermione at yahoo.com (lovefromhermione at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 22:52:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter Discussions: Chapter 8, The Hearing In-Reply-To: <9a.65ae6.2d18ccd6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20031223065253.70801.qmail@web40208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87497 Oryomai asked: 6. Was it entirely legal for Professor Lupin to teach Harry the Patronus Charm? In the Ministry's eyes, I mean. Ray responded: I suspect it's more a matter of timing. All of the OWL students were required to perform the spell, so one can interpret for this that the Charm *is* part of the normal curriculum. Julie clarifies: Lupin stated, "The spell I am going to try and teach you is highly advanced magic, Harry- well beyond Ordinary Wizarding Level. It is called the Patronus Charm" ("The Patronus," US p. 237). When Harry produced the Patronus during his DADA O.W.L., it was purely for Professor Tofty's enjoyment, a "bonus point." I think this fact that Harry could perform the charm being presented before the Wizengamot was one of the catalysts that stuck Hogwarts with "that Umbridge woman." Fudge was beginning to realize that a realm in the WW was completely outside of his control, and he couldn't have that, especially when Hogwarts was under the direction of the only enemy that Fudge could see, Dumbledore. I can see it enraging Fudge to find out that a professor (a werewolf, at that) could teach a student a spell that Fudge thought inappropriate for the student's age. I can also see him believing that this was the rule rather than the exception, and we start down the "Dumbledore's Army" line of reasoning. Why else would a thirteen-year-old wizard be learning such highly advanced magic? Perhaps the hearing didn't achieve Fudge's intended results, but it gave him something to think about. And even though he couldn't get Harry expelled, he succeeded in making Harry's life there pretty miserable, which was the next best thing. Julie, who thinks she'll never meet anyone as paranoid as Cornelius Oswald Fudge __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Tue Dec 23 10:13:07 2003 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:13:07 -0000 Subject: Vauxhall= ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87498 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "iris_ft" wrote: > > Iris: > > Okay, what is following is probably completely irrelevant. However > > I'd like to know whether it has been debated yet. Here it is. > > I've been reading several messages from the thread concerning the > > source of Tom Riddle's diary. As I don't live in Great Britain, I > > don't know London, and I wanted to see where Vauxhall was, I wanted > > to get some information concerning that area. My Copernic searching > > engine provided me with 68 results, most of them dealing with > > Vauxhall Motors. I visited the official website of the firm (though > > I don't have a particular interest in cars), and I discovered that > > the emblem of Vauxhall is a griffin. If I remember well, the firm > is > > also called "the griffin house". > > So that's my question; forgive me if it is off-topic, or if there's > > yet an answer in the archives: that "Vauxhall road" on the back of > > the diary, is it only a reference to a location? Could it be also > an > > allusion to that griffin emblem, a kind of a joke based on the > > association of a name and a symbol? Tom Riddle, heir to Slytherin, > > consigned his sixteen years- old self memory in a small book that > > holds the same name as "the griffin house" I don't know what to > > think of it, and I'd be glad to read your opinions. > > > > Geoff: > The district of Vauxhall is in Central London. It lies on the south > bank of the Thames about a mile upstream from Westminster and the > Houses of Parliament and is also the first station on the main line > out of Waterloo to the South. > > Vauxhall Motors are based in Luton, about 50 miles north of London > producing Vauxhall cars and Bedford trucks but...... wait for it.... > Carolyn turned up links between Vauxhall in London and the Luton > situation which also drew in the griffin. Her research is revealed in > message 86957 which is of great interest in the Vauxhall Road debate. > > Geoff Iris again: That's what I call a Christmas present. Thanks, Geoff and Carolyn, thanks for "Fawkes Hall" and for the griffin. Legge, relegge, labora et invenis! Amicalement, Iris From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Dec 23 11:30:05 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 11:30:05 -0000 Subject: Fidelius swap was Re: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: <005501c3c91e$464b7ce0$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87499 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > > I don't understand why you dislike Sirius so much - please explain why you > keep going to such convoluted lengths to claim he's stupid (which he doesn't > seem to be) or cowardly or selfish or any of the other adjectives you keep > applying to him. i do agree that post-Azkaban he acted erratically, but > that's hardly surprising. And once he was back at Grimmauld Place he seems > to exhibit most of the symptoms of clinical depression, along with some > confusion concerning Harry - which again is understandable. He's never > really had the time to adjust to James' death and now he is trying to > replace his best friend with Harry. Having said that of course if people had > listened to him and actually filled Harry in on what was happening OoP would > have turned out very differently. > Kneasy: No, I don't particularly like him but he shares that distinction with a few other characters in canon, so nothing exceptional there. I've posited before that he's the sort of 'damaged hero' figure that females tend to be sympathetic towards. He is not such a heart-warming figure to most men; he would be considered weak, whiny, almost contemptible by many. Think of Sirius as a role model for Harry. Would that be a cause for celebration? I'd rather Harry be like Snape than become the emotional prisioner that Sirius was turning him into. Yet that was the way it was going before he bowed out. The interesting aspect of Sirius is that the closer you look, the more suspect he becomes. You may remember I posted a piece a few months back that analysed one of the key passages in the tale that is Sirius - post no. 79808 Sirius Reservations. His story (or at least the part I covered) just does not have credibility - as I said at the time, it's got more holes than the local golf course. Either he's not what he appears on the surface or JKR was having a really bad day at the typewriter. Since JK has not let us down yet, I prefer to go with the former choice, especially as she readily admits that the tale is full of red herrings and authorly sleight of hand. So the HP saga is full of betrayals, twists and misdirection - lovely! Whenever there's something that makes me stop and read the passage again, I follow the precept of Capt. Renaud in Casablanca - "Round up the usual suspects." And Sirius is usually top of the list vying only with DD. The fact that he has a multitude of defenders out there only increases the satisfaction in my black, twisted, devious little mind when I'm able to propose alternative, if mildly unpopular, solutions. You see, there're alternative explanations for almost everything. Much is made of Sirius being 'safe' in Grimmauld Place. Think of the alternative - he's where DD can watch him. Almost a prisioner; that's the impression given in the books. Protective custody or House Arrest? Think about it. He's never left on his own, there's always someone there to keep an eye on him. DD doesn't trust him to keep his word and behave himself. Maybe there's something else that makes him unsure about Sirius. Fantastic? Ridiculous? Perhaps. But until the story has completely unfolded I'm keeping all my options open and posting those that run counter to the accepted interpretations. It's more fun that way. I'm not too concerned if I'm right or if I'm wrong; that's not the object of the exercise. I think it's boring when everyone agrees, so - stir 'em up. If I can come up with a plot-line twist that turns things round 180 degrees and could still fit with what we know so far (allowing for a few reasonably plausible conclusions and extrapolations) then I'll go for it. What adds to the enjoyment is that we probably won't know for years if we've been backing the wrong horse or not. K: > What I want to know is how long they were in hiding before Peter ratted (pun > intended) them out? The prophesy was made, I thought, before Harry's birth, > yet he is 15 months old when the Potters are killed. Does this mean they > waited until then to go into hiding? And if so why? Why wasn't Voldemort a > danger to them until then? And were the Longbottoms in hiding? They > certainly weren't by the time the Lestranges came for them - but they could > have come out of hiding after Voldemort's fall. > Kneasy: Very good questions. We are told that Peter was working for Voldy for two years before the event (and how did he manage that without wise old DD getting suspicious?). Unfortunately there are too many gaps for us to get a grip on the most likely sequence of events. Just give me some time; I'm sure I can come up with something outrageous. From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 23 11:38:52 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 11:38:52 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Databases Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87500 Following our recent admin in message 87351, we'd like to update you on the vanishing Main List databases. The previous admin informed you that our Main List databases were maliciously deleted, and had been restored from backup. Shortly after, a second attack was made in which false entries were made into three of the databases. Quite a lot of false entries; several hundred, in fact. ;-) The admin team decided to take the databases offline until we could work out a system that still allows members to read the databases, and will also allow them to be quickly updated. We apologise that we didn't inform you of this earlier; our first concern was to find a way to restore the Main List databases in a tamper-proof form. We didn't want to send out an endless series of administrative updates. Currently, all the Main List databases are in read only format. They've been edited so that they can be restored from backup copies in a matter of minutes. All members can read them; if you want to add an entry then, for the time being it will be necessary to email HPforGrownups-Owner at yahoogroups.com List administration will then make the updates. Some entries may have been lost in the process of editing the backup copies for speed of loading; please notify us of any errors or omissions in the Inish Alley database, the Birthday database and the Recommended Reading database. Our apologies for these problems Pippy Elf for List Administration. From belijako at online.no Tue Dec 23 12:09:53 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 12:09:53 -0000 Subject: Fidelius swap was Re: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87501 Mandy wrote: The statement that he [Sirius] would rather die than betray his friends are words > that come from the mouth of someone who has nothing to loose. No > family: no wife, no children, no parents. It's easy to take that > stand when the only person who may be threatened by your bravery, is > the very person you are trying to protect, in Sirius' case James > Potter. Given the choice between James Potter and Peter or Remus, > Sirius would choose James with out thinking twice. Lupin and I > believe Peter (except we have no canon to support this yet) had > families. If I was being tortured for the where abouts of my > friend and my loved ones were threatened; I'd choose my family. Berit replies: I agree with you that it's easier to claim one would rather have died than betray one's friends if there's "nothing" (like family) to lose... On the other hand, we know from history that people have indeed been willing to sacrifice their lives to protect their friends/allies even if it meant never being able to see one's loved ones ever again (or possibly putting them in danger). That's why I think Sirius's statement is genuine and true. And not easy at all. Because the question is not about calculating just how much one can afford to lose, but about what is RIGHT to do at any given situation, regardless of consequences (I know that sounds awful :-). Remember DD's words at the end of GoF? There will come a time when one will have to choose between what is right and what is EASY. Note the fact that Rowling uses the word "easy" rather than "wrong". I think that's very significant. It wouldn't be wrong to protect one's family, would it? But it would be the "easy" choice in Sirius's (or Peter's) situation, and possibly not the right one... So I really believe Sirius would have been willing to die for his friends, refusing to betray them, even if he had family of his own. Just like Lupin and James would have done for him. That's the beauty of loyalty, bravery and friendship :-) The principle of true love in its most extreme form. Berit From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Tue Dec 23 12:27:45 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 07:27:45 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter Discussions: Chapter 8, The Hearing References: <700940CE.53D915A0.4B073798@aol.com> Message-ID: <003d01c3c950$2b72b410$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> No: HPFGUIDX 87502 1. Was it really pure luck that Dumbledore happened to arrive at the Ministry early enough to make the trial, or was he notified by someone? 4. Does this scene support EvilGit!Percy? He does not even acknowledge that Harry is in the room, or that he knows Harry. Or does this support SpyfortheOrder!Percy? Joj: Maybe Percy informed Dumbledore of the change? Someone had to have told him. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patientx3 at aol.com Tue Dec 23 13:08:49 2003 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 13:08:49 -0000 Subject: Fidelius swap was Re: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87503 "K." wrote: > > I don't understand why you dislike Sirius so much Kneasy Replied: > No, I don't particularly like him but he shares that distinction with a few other characters in canon, so nothing exceptional there. > Think of Sirius as a > role model for Harry. Would that be a cause for celebration? I'd >rather Harry be like Snape than become the emotional prisioner that > Sirius was turning him into. HunterGreen: Do you mean that Sirius was turning Harry into an emotional prisoner? Because Harry was feeling that was before he had even seen Sirius in his new condition. Actually the letters that Sirius sends are the ones that Harry finds the least frustrating (us version; pg 9). He indentifies with Sirius, which is easy to do since they are both in similar situations in OoP, but he doesn't emulate him. As for Snape being role model, well, I think he's as much of an emotional prisoner as Sirius is, only in a different way. > The interesting aspect of Sirius is that the closer you look, the >more suspect he becomes. You may remember I posted a piece a few >months back that > analysed one of the key passages in the tale that is Sirius - post > no. 79808 Sirius Reservations. His story (or at least the part I >covered) just does not have credibility - as I said at the time, >it's got more holes than the local golf course. HunterGreen: I looked your post over, and the only real hole I can agree with is him being able to swim after being in prison for 13 years, although it could have something to do with his animagi form (perhaps his dog form was stronger than he was). > Either he's not what he appears on the surface or JKR was > having a really bad day at the typewriter. Since JK has not let >us down yet, I prefer to go with the former choice, > You see, there're alternative explanations for almost everything. > Much is made of Sirius being 'safe' in Grimmauld Place. Think of > the alternative - he's where DD can watch him. Almost a prisioner; > that's the impression given in the books. Protective custody or > House Arrest? Think about it. > He's never left on his own, there's always someone there to keep an > eye on him. DD doesn't trust him to keep his word and behave > himself. HunterGreen: But there are at least two times when Sirius is alone, first when he appears to Harry in the fire... "I don't know," said Sirius, "I haven't seen anyone from the order all weekend, they're all busy." [chpt 14; pg 304] And then later when Harry and the Weasleys arrive at his house in the middle of the night, he's alone as well. I really don't see why there would be more to DD's request that Sirius stay in the house than his desire to keep Sirius from being arrested (that and its nice to *always* have someone at GP, since it is their headquarters and all). IMO, he certainly could throw DD's orders out the window (which he does, twice), but he would eventually be kicked out of the order. > Maybe there's something else that makes him unsure about Sirius. > Fantastic? Ridiculous? Perhaps. But until the story has completely > unfolded I'm keeping all my options open and posting those that run > counter to the accepted interpretations. It's more fun that way. HunterGreen: I just really don't see the point of some sort of Evil!Sirius plotline. Maybe if he were still alive, but to find out he had all these other motivations after he's already gone wouldn't be all that dramatic. Also (and this is part of the reason I hate Evil!Snape theories) it would make his character a little dizzying; first he's evil, then good, then evil again, it would make the dramatic climax of PoA sort of silly. -HunterGreen From rayheuer3 at aol.com Tue Dec 23 13:53:51 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 08:53:51 EST Subject: Blundering Dunderhead (Was: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 8, The Hearing) Message-ID: <12f.381d0e08.2d19a2ef@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87504 Athena, talking about Percy's motives at the trial, states: "Percy's big problem is that he doesn't realize that Fudge is a Voldemort sympathizer and puppet. So when Percy is helping Fudge, he's actually helping Voldemort." And I (Ray) respond with one of my favorite theories (which apparently nobody on the list shares), which I call the "Blundering Dunderhead" theory: I still don't believe that Fudge is intentionally helping Voldemort. He can be termed a "puppet" in that, knowingly or not, he is helping Voldy's cause. However, it is my feeling that Fudge is just trying to beat his own drum. It was said in an earlier book that the only reason Fudge is MoM is that Dumbledore turned the job down. Whether this is actually true or not, if it is the common conception, Fudge will know it, and be looking for any excuse to show that he is the better choice, by casting Dumbledore in a bad light. I have seen many examples of the "Blundering Dunderhead" official taking a stand and refusing to budge on it, despite any evidence to the contrary. The leaders of the opposing view (in this case DD and Harry) are misguided at best, crimiinal conspirators at worst, and anyone who attempts to argue their side has simply been "seduced by [whoever's] lies" It is ironic that, in many cases, the BD (Fudge in this case) describes himself when describing his opponents. But we agree on Percy's motives. He has decided to hitch his wagon to Fudge's star, with an eye toward eventually becoming MoM himself. This means cutting off all ties with his family, who have aligned themselves with DD and Harry. It probably causes Percy great pain, but once he has chosen to align himself with Fudge, he cannot go back. Thus I describe Percy as "Blundering Dunderhead - The Next Generation". Now that Dumbledore has been proven right, and the WW has recognized that Voldemort is back and the DE's are again active, there will be repercussions for Percy, Fudge, et al. IMHO, Fudge's political career is finished. He will probably be forced to resign once a replacement is decided on. Percy will have to fade back into the woodwork for a while, but that will give him the opportunity to learn more about the way politics work in the WW, as well as mending some fences with his family. -- Ray -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meriaugust at yahoo.com Tue Dec 23 14:46:47 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:46:47 -0000 Subject: Umbridge a DE? (Was Re: Trelawney a future Voldemort Target?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87505 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "linda_mccabe" wrote: > There's always the method Voldemort employed in extracting > information from the memory-charmed Bertha Jorkins: torture. I'm > sure that he'd be able to get the information from her if he put his > considerable talents to bear on it. And that is why I think that > Dumbledore made sure that she stayed safely within the confines of > Hogwarts and why Umbridge was instructed to try and get her removed > from her position. You know, besides Trelawney being a right old > fraud and all. > > Athena Meri here: You think Umbridge was a front for LV at Hogwarts and was there searchiing for info on the prophecy? Interesting....Any good cannonical evidence to back that one up? I always took Sirius' statement (that the world is not divided up between good people and death eaters) to be reinforcement of the fact that Umbridge is a bad person, but not a DE. I have heard about the theories where Fudge has been Imperioused by Lucius Mafoy, but this is a new one for me. Meri From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Tue Dec 23 15:04:00 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 15:04:00 -0000 Subject: FILK: You Help Make Me Meaner Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87506 You Help Make Me Meaner To the tune of I've Got You to Lean On, from Sondheim's Anyone Can Whistle Hear a partial MIDI at: http://www.hamienet.com/cat2047.html Dedicated to Lilac (welcome back to filking!) THE SCENE: 12 Grimmauld Place. KREACHER and several Black family portraits conspire to repossess their ancestral home. REGULUS: Now how did the House of Black go wrong? KREACHER: 'Cause the Phoenix Order is too strong. MOTHER BLACK: Dishonor! AUNT ELLADORA: Filth! ARAMINTA: Scum! AUNT ELLADORA: Half-breed! MOTHER BLACK: Dishonor! AUNT ELLADORA: Freak! MOTHER BLACK: Dishonor! REGULUS: Who let the Phoenix Order in? KREACHER: I'll give you a single guess, your kin. REGULUS (indicating a portrait of Sirius): He did? KREACHER He did. MOTHER BLACK: He did? ARAMINTA: He did. REGULUS: He did. AUNT ELLADORA: He did. MOTHER BLACK AND ARAMINTA: He did! ALL (Overlapping): He'll be defeated! He'll be defeated! KREACHER: Now, here's how to trap him unaware. We'll target someone for whom he cares. MOTHER BLACK: Brilliant! ARAMINTA: Clever! REGULUS: Good! MOTHER BLACK: Brilliant! REGULUS: Brilliant! ARAMINTA: Brilliant! KREACHER: Blood traitors in control, such shame, Who is the child I most blame? One guess. REGULUS: Who? MOTHER BLACK: Harry Potter ARAMINTA: Harry Potter ALL: Harry Potter, no chip off the Black block Harry Potter, we'll teach him to make mock Harry Potter, at that lad we'll take aim! MOTHER BLACK: Damn, she's cleaning again! (KREACHER withdraws, and the painting all fall silent. The music goes up-tempo as MOLLY dances in, with a copy of Gilderoy Lockhart's "Guide to Household Pests" in hand) MOLLY (to Lockhart): When cleaning up after Dark Arts I have my own Martha Stewart. Whenever I must Wipe the dust It's a joy I've got you to clean with When everything's dingy and gray, You'll notice I'm scrubbing away! Just give me a nest Full of pests To destroy. When I've you to clean with, Gilderoy! PHOTO OF LOCKHART With me to rely on, you'll get results Just make this the manual you'll always consult. MOLLY: Whenever there's boggarts Or dirt That annoy I've got you to clean with! PHOTO OF LOCKHART You've got me to clean with! MOLLY: I've got you to clean with! PHOTO OF LOCKHART You've got - (Exit MOLLY ? KREACHER and the paintings resume their conspiring) AUNT ELLADORA: Now, what shall we label him, my friends? A term for that nephew who offends... ARAMINTA: "No-account hound dog." REGULUS: Brilliant! AUNT ELLADORA: Terrible! REGULUS: Terrible! AUNT ELLADORA: Idiot! A phrase that's a little more noxious... One calculated to Shock us- REGULUS: Yes? AUNT ELLADORA: "Enemy of pureblood." MOTHER BLACK: Pureblood... REGULUS: Pureblood... ARAMINTA: Pureblood! ALL: Pureblood! ARAMINTA: Enemy of blood! Enemy of the pure! OTHERS (Overlapping): Enemy of pureblood! Enemy of elves! Enemy of the pure! Enemy of the Dark Lord! Enemy of pureblood! ALL: Harry Potter, soon your godpa is through! Harry Potter, we will strike him through you! Harry Potter, soon you'll face Voldemort! (KREACHER pulls out a well-worn photograph of Bellatrix Lestrange and gazes at it rapturously) KREACHER Bell, my service is yours .. (Music again goes up-tempo as KREACHER dances joyously about the mansion) Whenever I'm tempted to swear Allegiance to my rightful heir You turn me turncoat With your vote In the fix You help make me meaner. CHORUS OF PAINTINGS When everything's vile at home, We count on our faithful old gnome. You'd better believe He'll conceive Evil tricks You help make him meaner, Bellatrix! KREACHER: What comfort it is in my dank crawlspace To gaze on that cruel and heavy-lidded face Because I'm for her ship I worship Her pix - You help make me meaner! CHORUS OF PAINTINGS You help make him meaner! KREACHER: You help make me meaner! (For the big jitterbugging instrumental finale, the Blacks and Bellatrix emerge from their frames and join KREACHER in the dance. BLACK-out). - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From spang_b at yahoo.co.in Tue Dec 23 12:01:54 2003 From: spang_b at yahoo.co.in (spang_b) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 12:01:54 -0000 Subject: Planning the future Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87507 Hi, Thinking about Harry, I was stuck by the fact that he doesn't make any plans about the future. Leave planning, he doesn't even think about future to know how events might turn up. He blithely goes on, reacting to events that happen. He never anticipates what future events are going to be, unlike say ,Dumbledore who always seems to know what might happen and be prepared for that. (I am not saying that he should compete with Dumbledore in future management). As Dumbledore explains at the last of OOTP, one reason he didn't reveal about the prophecy to Harry sooner was that he didn't want someone so young to continually brood over such a huge responsibility. But now that Harry knows, will he start thinking about what might happen, how he might defeat Voldemort, make plans, learn new skills, prepare himself? Or will he just wait for Voldemort to turn up and rely on last minute luck and courage under fire? spangb From spang_b at yahoo.co.in Tue Dec 23 11:38:55 2003 From: spang_b at yahoo.co.in (spang_b) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 11:38:55 -0000 Subject: fave lines and character Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87508 Hi, OOTP is full of great lines but the crown will go to this one when Dumbledore says," I never dreamed that I would have such a person on my hands." I am really floored by the helplessness of this great wizard before his 15 year old charge. As for favorite character in OOTP, no guesses on this one, it's Luna Lovegood. Though I felt really for Proefesor Trelawney to know that all her odd behavior stems from her poverty. spangb From belijako at online.no Tue Dec 23 16:45:52 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:45:52 -0000 Subject: OOP:Favorite Lines... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87509 One of my favourites would have to be Dumbledore's little "dispute" with Fudge: "[Fudge saying:]'You will now be escorted back to the Ministry, where you will be formally charged, then sent to Azkaban to await trial'. 'Ah,' said Dumbledore gently, 'yes. Yes, I thought we might hit that little snag.' 'Snag?' said Fudge, his voice still vibrating with joy. 'I see no snag, Dumbledore!' 'Well,' said Dumbledore apologetically, 'I'm afraid I do.' 'Oh, really?' 'Well - it's just that you seem to be laboring under the delusion that I am going to - what is the phrase? - come quietly. I am afraid I am not going to come quietly at all, Cornelius. I have absolutely no intention of being sent to Azkaban. I could break out of course - but what a waste of time, and frankly, I can think of a whole host of things I would rather be doing.'" Another one of my favourites: "'Thank you so much, Professor [Umbridge]!' said Flitwick in his squeaky little voice. 'I could have got rid of the sparklers myself, of course, bit I wasn't sure whether I had the authority.'" And this one: "'The thing about growing up with Fred and George," said Ginny thoughtfully, "is that you sort of start thinking anything's possible if you've got enough nerve.'" And lastly; a sad one: "Snape the teenager had a stringy, pallid look about him, like a plant kept in the dark." Very sad picture... Berit From belijako at online.no Tue Dec 23 17:14:18 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 17:14:18 -0000 Subject: Favorite OotP Chapter In-Reply-To: <3817E38E.20C35497.4B073798@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87510 Oryomai wrote: > Definitely "Snape's Worst Memory". We get to see MWPP interacting with eachother, and we get a taste of what they do to Snape (*laughs gleefully* This helps my theory of James and Sirius as just like jocks today!). We see Vulnerable!Snape...which we don't see too often. Berit replies: To me the pensieve scene is not the only reason that chapter is so great: It's also the chapter where Fred and George starts to show what they really are capable of (in honour of Dumbledore); unleashing teir specially produced fireworks in the corridors, giving Umbridge something to think about :-). Fred and George's brilliant initiative makes the rest of the school wake up too, and "everyone" do their best to keep 'that Umbridge-woman' busy :-) Rowling's description of the Hogwarts "prank-resistance movement" is just hilarious!! Berit From hermowninny719 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 23 19:04:06 2003 From: hermowninny719 at yahoo.com (hermowninny719) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 19:04:06 -0000 Subject: Planning the future In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87511 --- spang_b wrote: Thinking about Harry, I was stuck by the fact that he doesn't make any plans about the future. Leave planning, he doesn't even think about future to know how events might turn up. He blithely goes on, reacting to events that happen. He never anticipates what future events are going to be, unlike say ,Dumbledore who always seems to know what might happen and be prepared for that. Hermowninny responds: I believe we'll see a much different Harry in the last two books. I see him being changed by the events of OOP. With the revelation of the prophesy, he has begun to envision his future and where he's destined to go. I think we'll see him being much more proactive and not just reacting to what others do to him. My canon for this... At the end of OOP, Harry walks out King's Cross Station with the Dursleys following in his wake. In all four previous books, he has followed them. There's many other hints in the last chapter of OOP to show Harry as being more independent and mature. If I had my book with me, I could throw in some quotes. Just a thought. Hermowninny From angela_glor at yahoo.com Tue Dec 23 18:14:24 2003 From: angela_glor at yahoo.com (angela_glor) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 18:14:24 -0000 Subject: Planning the future In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87512 Hi, spang_b wrote: "Thinking about Harry, I was stuck by the fact that he doesn't make any plans about the future. Leave planning, he doesn't even think about future to know how events might turn up." Yes, I noticed this as well. Part of it comes from being a young person, I guess. But even for a young person, Harry is not usually one to ask many questions. I was surprised in each of the books that Harry seems perfectly happy to blunder around in the dark. Even once he learns about the prophesy, he asks only the most basic of questions. Spang wrote: "But now that Harry knows, will he start thinking about what might happen, how he might defeat Voldemort, make plans, learn new skills, prepare himself? Or will he just wait for Voldemort to turn up and rely on last minute luck and courage under fire?" If past experience is any guide, I think we can expect Harry to brood, procrastinate and generally use avoidance strategies until the last possible moment. Knowing his luck, things will probably work out just fine. Angela From angela_glor at yahoo.com Tue Dec 23 18:30:44 2003 From: angela_glor at yahoo.com (angela_glor) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 18:30:44 -0000 Subject: Numerology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87513 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grindieloe" wrote: > Looking over my numerology book, I decided to figure out Harry's > Destiny Number, or the number that reveals the lessons you will > learn through your lifetime. Destiny number is based on someone's > date of birth, and in Harry's case that was July 31st, 1980. The Lexicon gives Hermione's birthdate as September 19, but I don't know which year. Let's say it is 1980, although the year probably doesn't matter much in canon. What does her numerology forecast say? Do we know birthdays for other characters? I'm drawing a blank. > That means that I added 0+7+3+1+1+9+8+0 = 11. While for most > numerology numbers, you would continue adding to get a single digit, > 11 is significant by itself, as is 22; therefore, instead of adding > the 1+1 to get 2, you would simply keep the 11 as is. I must be doing it wrong. I get 29. > "Because this number is composed of two Ones, these people are amply > endowed with all the leadership qualities of Ones, and are > resolutely determined to achieve whatever it is they set out to do. I don't think this describes Harry well at all (maybe because he is a fictional character ). I don't think Harry is a leader. He mostly seems to react to whatever happens to him, often as a matter of survival. > What's more, they usually succeed, because they are prepared to take > risks, and will work around the clock if necessary until they obtain > their objective. I don't think Harry worked around the clock to prepare for the first two tasks in Goblet of Fire! > This single-minded determination earns them a great deal of respect > and acclaim from others. I don't think Harry is respected for this. I think he is respected for something that happened when he was one. In OotP, he seems to come in for a fair amount of derision, actually, although not deservedly so. > Warm and lively, they are popular and may have an enormous influence > over the other people in their lives - Elevens are special. I wouldn't characterize Harry as warm or lively. He was kind of flat in the first books. Now that he has been developed a bit, he is mostly bitter. > They should beware of exploiting these attributes for selfish, > materialistic, or idealistic purposes." Definitely! Thanks, Andrea. Angela From fullmetalcardigan66 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 23 19:18:33 2003 From: fullmetalcardigan66 at yahoo.com (Kate) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 19:18:33 -0000 Subject: Trelawney a future Voldemort Target? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87514 Tim wrote: > It seems to me that now that the prophecy has been > destroyed, Voldemort may try to > extract it from Trelawney. This by itself would explain > why Dumbledore keeps her at > Hogwarts. > > Has anybody else thought about this? No, not until you raised it. But that could be the reason Umbridge tried to fire Trelawney and the reason Dumbledore wanted her to stay at Hogwarts. Maybe Dumbledore was protecting her from Veritaserum or maybe from the Cruciatus Curse? I got the impression that Trelawney would have left had Dumbledore not intervened. That means to me that she didn't think she was in grave danger if she left the Hogwarts grounds. Merry Christmas, Everyone! Kate From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Dec 23 20:58:56 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 20:58:56 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 8, The Hearing In-Reply-To: <9a.65ae6.2d18ccd6@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87515 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: Oryomai: > "Fudge is suspicious of her because they have no record of any other wizards > in that area. She admits she's a Squib. The Wizengamot seems skeptical about > whether or not Squibs can see Dementors; Mrs. Figg is indignant. When she > first begins to describe them, it does not sound as if she has ever seen one in > real life. Madam Bones is not very patient. When Mrs. Figg describes how > they made her feel, the Wizengamot knows that she actually saw them." > Ray: > seeing may not be the correct term. If we accept that non- wizards > (including Squibs) cannot see Dementors, and Mrs. Figgs description seems to > bear this out, then her testimony establishes that she was in the presence of a > Dementor, not that she necessarily saw one. Geoff: Ah, but they can.... "'I'm a Squib,'said Mrs.Figg, 'So you wouldn't have me registered, would you?' 'A Squib, eh?' said Fudge, eyeing her closely. 'We'll be checking that. You'll leave details of your parentage with my assistant Weasley. Incidentally, can Squibs see Dementors?' he added, looking left and right along the bench. 'Yes, we can!'said Mrs.Figg indignantly." (OOTP "THe Hearing" p.131 UK edition) Geoff From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Dec 23 21:10:53 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 21:10:53 -0000 Subject: OOP:Favorite Lines... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87516 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" wrote: Berit: > Another one of my favourites: > > "'Thank you so much, Professor [Umbridge]!' said Flitwick in his > squeaky little voice. 'I could have got rid of the sparklers myself, > of course, bit I wasn't sure whether I had the authority.'" Geoff: >From the same scene, another McGonagallism.... "'Dear, dear,' said Professor McGonagall sardonically as one of the dragons soared round her classroom, emitting loud bangs and exhaling flame, 'Miss Brown, would you mind running along to the Headmistress and informing her that we have an escaped firework in our classroom?'" OOTP "Snape's Worst Memory" p, 558 UK edition) This thread has begun to make me realise what a treasurehouse of McGonagall's typical dry Scots wit there is in the books..... From sam2sar at charter.net Tue Dec 23 21:22:50 2003 From: sam2sar at charter.net (sam2sar) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 21:22:50 -0000 Subject: Numerology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87517 > > That means that I added 0+7+3+1+1+9+8+0 = 11. While for most > > numerology numbers, you would continue adding to get a single digit, > > 11 is significant by itself, as is 22; therefore, instead of adding > > the 1+1 to get 2, you would simply keep the 11 as is. > > I must be doing it wrong. I get 29. > > > You need to add the 2 and 9 together and then you get 11. Sam From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Tue Dec 23 21:34:46 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 21:34:46 -0000 Subject: Quirrel and Scandinavia? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87518 I was re-reading SS/PS lately and noticed that Quirrel seems to have at least some contact with Scandinavia. One - he has some talent with trolls. I looked up references for trolls on the Internet and discover that these are particularly Scandinavian legendary creatures and are quite common in Scandinavian lore. Two - he somehow got hold of a "rare" Norwegian Ridgeback egg to lose to Hagrid in the Hogshead. Surely, he must have gotten this egg from somewhere near Norway. This got me thinking. Where else have we come across relics from the North? It occurs to me to wonder if old Quirrel might have something to do with Durmstrang. The Lexicon implies that Durmstrang may be in Eastern Europe, but we have no information other than that it is cold, the winters are cold and students and teachers often have Slavic sounding names. Scandinavia could be in the running for the location of Durmstrang. Do any of our Northern readers have any other information that might connect Quirrel with a northern country or with Durmstrang? CV From meriaugust at yahoo.com Tue Dec 23 22:03:59 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 22:03:59 -0000 Subject: Neville and Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87519 I am in the process of rereading all of my HP collection and I am presently in the middle of PoA. I have just finished reading the chapter where Neville changes the boggart into Snape (The Boggart in the Wardrobe, page 136, American edition). That Snape is Neville's biggest fear is not surprising to me, as Snape bullies (torments?) Neville more than any one else in Gryffindor, with the exception of Harry. My question is why that is. We know why he hates Harry, with his past involvements with James Potter and the other Marauders, but why does Snape abuse poor Neville so? Any ideas, or is this another of the thousands of things that JKR will have to adress in the next two books? Meri From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Tue Dec 23 22:30:00 2003 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne Dragon) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:30:00 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville and Snape References: Message-ID: <000b01c3c9a4$4d9c1500$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 87520 >>>>{Meri Said:} My question is why that is. We know why he (Snape) hates Harry, with his past involvements with James Potter and the other Marauders, but why does Snape abuse poor Neville so? Any ideas, or is this another of the thousands of things that JKR will have to adress in the next two books?<<<< My personal opinion is that Snape abhors people who seem incompetent...and Neville can certainly fit that assumption with his nervous bumbling in class and less than stellar abilities. He's not exactly the most talented OR the most powerful student in the school. And since he is a Gryffindor to boot, it gives Snape somewhere other than just Harry to vent his frustrations. Also, it is possible that Snape knows some of the prophecy as well, including Neville's possible role, and so Neville, being the 'other' possible challenger to Voldemort (and therefore another Gryffindor who may seek out undeserved **In Severus's mind** recognition) may have inherited some of Snapes dislike for Harry---guilt by association as it were....And then there is always the possibility that Neville's parents also indulged in Snape-baiting during school, much as Potter's group did....and, last but not least, if you beleive the "tough Love' Theory about Snape's 'Snapishness', then he MAY be trying to goad Neville into braver, more controlled, more magically powerful reactions, in preparation for what may lie ahead in the "war' that's sure to spring up.... Anne From rredordead at aol.com Tue Dec 23 23:03:38 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 23:03:38 -0000 Subject: Fidelius swap was Re: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: <000901c3c926$704a8ce0$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87521 K wrote: I don't understand your point. Peter didn't betray them because of some loyalty to his family - he'd already been spying on them for a year. Mandy here: I think my point may be muddled because I'm playing with supposition. I am working with ideas that I have about Peter and not necessarily canon. So my apologies. You are right in as far as information we have on Peter right now is limited. I'm a big fan of Peter Pettigrew for reasons that he reminds me of myself in school. Tagging along behind a trio of popular girls, suffering all kinds of crap from them because of my desires to be wanted and included in the `cool' gang. I know what it feels like to place my desire of acceptance above my own self worth. It was at times hell, but I'm grown up now and learned from my mistakes. But I feel deeply for Peter and as a result don't want to believe he just turned against James for no little reason. Foolish perhaps, but JKR is famous for fleshing her characters with multi dimensions, so perhaps not too foolish. I want believe Peter when he said, kneeling on the floor of the Shrieking shack, that he had no choice when confronted by Voldemort, that LV has powers of persuasion that no one could understand unless you are faced with them. Therefore, what I am trying to say in this long-winded repost is I believe LV had something terrible over Peter. He held it over Peter for the year he was spying and when the Secret Keeper fell into Peters lap he saw it as a way out. Terrible and foolish - yes, unforgivable - perhaps K wrote: He says in the Shack that he was afraid he would break and therefore refused the job - how much *more* irresponsible it would have been to take the job of Secret Keeper when he believed that he would not be able to withstand Voldemort. Mandy here: Irresponsible yes, but in the question of bravery did Sirius think Peter was better able to withstand Voldemort? If Sirius was afraid he would break, why give the job to someone else? Is that a complement of the other persons strength and ability? Or is it cowardly behavior to knowingly putting your friend out there to suffer in your place? It is indeed a difficult choice for Sirius. What is right opposed to what is easy? If Sirius truly chose the responsible path, knowing people would believe him a coward, over the irresponsible path just to play the hero, I will see Sirius in a very different light. That would be the choice of a true hero. K wrote: So if Lupin or Pettigrew had refused the job because they were afraid Voldemort would find something (i.e. their families) to use against them that would have been perfectly sensible, but when Sirius does the same that's cowardly or stupid? Mandy here: No the same rule applies to all three of them, but I judge Sirius harsher because I believe he was the best and only man for the job. Sirius didn't have anything at stake but his own life. Perhaps Peter did too which was why he made a good second choice. But Sirius is on record saying he would rather die that give up his friend. Well, he had the chance to do just that and gave it up! He gave it up, because he doubted his ability to hold out. He knew he wouldn't be able to do it. That does not necessarily make him a coward but his choice did placed others at risk in his place. I am very hard on Sirius because of so many fans out there worship him as this brave, courageous hero. He certainly was not. Far from it. I wouldn't call Sirius a coward, but he was incredibly selfish and arrogant. Judging Peter by a mistake Sirius himself knew he would make. I do admire Sirius' for knowing his weakness but despise his condemnation of Peter for having that same weakness. The weakness being betraying one's friend in return for your own life. Sirius had the luxury of choice, he was able to take the time to decide whether he would be able to be an effective Secret Keeper for the Potters and he was able to decline when he found the answer. Did Peter have that choice? Maybe we'll never know. I personally don't think he did. I believe two years earlier he was approached or captured by LV and made to comply. Peters only choice was whether he wanted to live of die. Now I don't admire what Peter did some of his choices after the Potters murder are questionable. He is a coward and a traitor without a doubt. And if Sirius was in Peters place I believe he would have killed himself rather than face James and Lily and not lived 13 years as a rat. However, Peter did what he had to do to survive in the circumstances he found himself. All I do know is that Sirius is showered with gold and Peter is treated with distain by most fans and neither deserve it. I'm in a perverted way I'm almost glad that Sirius died in an underground, illegal action that will be denied by all remembered only by a handful of people, and Peter is destined to die a glorious hero's death helping Harry. One things for certain Sirius is an amazing character. So ambiguous, enough to keep us arguing for hours, days even. Mandy, whose post are getting longer and longer and making even less sense. ;-) From rredordead at aol.com Tue Dec 23 23:15:12 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 23:15:12 -0000 Subject: Fidelius swap was Re: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87522 > Berit replies: So I really believe Sirius would have been willing to die for his friends, refusing to betray them, even if he had family of his own. Just like Lupin and James would have done for him. That's the beauty of loyalty, bravery and friendship :-) The principle of true love in its most extreme Mandy here: Only for the brief time at the end of PoA would Sirius really have died for James. Hind sight is alway 20/20. Before then. Absolutly not, and Sirius knew that about himself. He proved it by turning down the job of Secret Keeper. He knew that under LV pressure he would break and give away the Potter secret before he died. Mandy From kcawte at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 24 07:32:31 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 23:32:31 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fidelius swap was Re: The Sorting Hat References: Message-ID: <006201c3c9f0$1739e4f0$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87523 > Mandy here: > I think my point may be muddled because I'm playing with > supposition. I am working with ideas that I have about Peter and not > necessarily canon. So my apologies. You are right in as far as > information we have on Peter right now is limited. > > I'm a big fan of Peter Pettigrew for reasons that he reminds me of > myself in school. Tagging along behind a trio of popular girls, > suffering all kinds of crap from them because of my desires to be > wanted and included in the `cool' gang. I know what it feels like to > place my desire of acceptance above my own self worth. It was at > times hell, but I'm grown up now and learned from my mistakes. But I > feel deeply for Peter and as a result don't want to believe he just > turned against James for no little reason. Foolish perhaps, but JKR > is famous for fleshing her characters with multi dimensions, so > perhaps not too foolish. K I don't think there is any deeper reason at all. I think that like you said he wanted acceptance and he *knew* they would never see him as an equal. And as much as he wqanted to be one of the gang he resented them for that. And eventually he turned to Voldemort because if he couldn't be respected he'd settle for being feared, and as a Death Eater he would be feared regardless of who he was - i know he was only a spy up until the death of the Potters but he wasn't planning on Voldemort zapping himself, he was expecting Voldemort to kill all of them and for him to get the 'credit' - although I certainly think there's some Slytherin in him, because he ahd a back up plan in case it all went wrong! He's obviously not stupid. > > > Mandy here: > Irresponsible yes, but in the question of bravery did Sirius think > Peter was better able to withstand Voldemort? If Sirius was afraid > he would break, why give the job to someone else? Is that a > complement of the other persons strength and ability? Or is it > cowardly behavior to knowingly putting your friend out there to > suffer in your place? K In Sirius' plan Peter wouldn't break - because Peter wouldn't get caught. If anyone did it would be Sirius and he could hope to die before telling anything but not actually have anything to tell - just in case. There's no way to make the Potter's perfectly safe, but this added an extra stage - like my allusion (at least the one I intended to make earlier in this thread - not sure if I did) to the Resistance in WWII. They used cut outs so that couriers wouldn't be able to give away their contacts. Obviously they could give away the cut out and then the cut out would be interrogated and could give away the contact but it would slow the process down, hopefully enough that evidence could be hidden and people could hide/run. Mandy It is indeed a difficult choice for Sirius. > What is right opposed to what is easy? If Sirius truly chose the > responsible path, knowing people would believe him a coward, over the > irresponsible path just to play the hero, I will see Sirius in a very > different light. That would be the choice of a true hero. > K What Sirius did is like when famous people in danger of assasination have a duplicate appear - he was the decoy to draw the danger and fire away from Peter so that Peter could do the job that needed to be done. I wonder how long they expected to be in hiding for? I mean Voldemort didn't look like he was about to disappear when the Potters went into hiding - I know they were trying to protect their son but how long were they planning on hiding in that house - till he turned 18? > > Mandy here: > No the same rule applies to all three of them, but I judge Sirius > harsher because I believe he was the best and only man for the job. > Sirius didn't have anything at stake but his own life. Perhaps Peter > did too which was why he made a good second choice. But Sirius is on > record saying he would rather die that give up his friend. Well, he > had the chance to do just that and gave it up! He gave it up, > because he doubted his ability to hold out. He knew he wouldn't be > able to do it. That does not necessarily make him a coward but his > choice did placed others at risk in his place. > K I doubt he considered the risk to Peter because Peter wasn't supposed to be in much danger. He was still risking his life for his friend because the bad guys were supposed to believe he was the one with the knowledge, but Peter's safety probably didn't cross his mind because a) Peter could have said no. No one was *forced* into this plan. and b) because he truly expected Peter to be willing to die to protect James the same way he was. Mandy > I am very hard on Sirius because of so many fans out there worship > him as this brave, courageous hero. He certainly was not. Far from > it. I wouldn't call Sirius a coward, but he was incredibly selfish > and arrogant. Judging Peter by a mistake Sirius himself knew he > would make. K There is a great difference between the 'mistake' Sirius believed he himself would make - that of breaking under torture. And what he is judging Peter for - *choosing* to spy on his friends. If Sirius had broken under torture and given away information it would have been tragic, as it would have been if Peter had, but Peter didn't give up information under torture he willingly handed it over. You seem to want to believe Peter was protecting his family or something by spying for Voldemort - but he no longer seems to have a family and yet he continues to work for Voldemort. Not to mention that while he may well have gone to jail or been kissed for spying for Voldemort there would be no reason for him to be frightened for his family if he confessed after the event *especially* since Voldemort wasn now gone - but instead he killed 13 innocent people to save his own skin and framed a supposed friend for the crime leaving him to rot in jail. Now it's possible Peter acted originally out of a need to protect someone - although I doubt it - but although that is forgivable, killing innocent people certainly isn't and allowing Sirius to be convicted isn't either. Mandy > > All I do know is that Sirius is showered with gold and Peter is > treated with distain by most fans and neither deserve it. K Well I'm glad you think a cold-blooded murder doesn't deserve to be treated with disdain, but I happen to think he does. Sirius may have made a wrong choice in switching with Peter but he did so believing he was acting in the best interests of his friend. Peter on the other hand acts only in his own interests - and while that may not be evil in itself, he is *directly* responsible for 15 deaths, 13 of them by his own hand and indirectly responsible for who knows how many more due to his actions in aiding in the rise of Voldemort in the last few years. K From kcawte at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 24 07:35:42 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 23:35:42 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fidelius swap was Re: The Sorting Hat References: Message-ID: <007801c3c9f0$897f6f30$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87524 > Mandy here: > Only for the brief time at the end of PoA would Sirius really have > died for James. Hind sight is alway 20/20. Before then. Absolutly > not, and Sirius knew that about himself. He proved it by turning down > the job of Secret Keeper. He knew that under LV pressure he would > break and give away the Potter secret before he died. > K He didn't *know* anything of the sort - he thought it was a possible. Honestly he can't win - if he says he would have withstood the torture everyone accuses him of being arrogant and if he fears he might not he's insincere. If Sirius wasn't willing to give his life for the Potters he would have turned the job down flat not agreed to let everyone still think it was him. Unless you subscribe to ESE!Sirius and think he deliberately organized the situation then there is no reason to not print an ad in the Prophet telling everyone he turned down the job so that no one would want to come after him. K From lmccabe at sonic.net Wed Dec 24 00:06:13 2003 From: lmccabe at sonic.net (linda_mccabe) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 00:06:13 -0000 Subject: Umbridge a DE? (Was Re: Trelawney a future Voldemort Target?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87525 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "linda_mccabe" > wrote: > > > There's always the method Voldemort employed in extracting > > information from the memory-charmed Bertha Jorkins: torture. I'm > > sure that he'd be able to get the information from her if he put > his > > considerable talents to bear on it. And that is why I think that > > Dumbledore made sure that she stayed safely within the confines of > > Hogwarts and why Umbridge was instructed to try and get her > removed > > from her position. You know, besides Trelawney being a right old > > fraud and all. > > > > Athena > > Meri here: > You think Umbridge was a front for LV at Hogwarts and was there > searchiing for info on the prophecy? Interesting....Any good > cannonical evidence to back that one up? I always took Sirius' > statement (that the world is not divided up between good people and > death eaters) to be reinforcement of the fact that Umbridge is a bad > person, but not a DE. I have heard about the theories where Fudge > has been Imperioused by Lucius Mafoy, but this is a new one for me. > Meri Athena: ACT-chually, I think that Umbridge is merely a toady and is just as eager to please as Percy is. I think she is vile and venomous, but I don't think she's actually a Death Eater and I doubt she is on Voldemort's payroll. I think Fudge is someone who sold his soul a long time ago to Voldemort. I doubt there's the black mark on his arm, but his soul has been bought and paid for with advancement in the Ministry above his competence level. I also think that Lucius Malfoy may have helped to further Fudge's candidacy knowing that he'd have someone who would be in a position to be "amenable" to hearing his supplications. Because of course, Malfoy would have blackmail material on exactly why Fudge got where he is. Therefore, I think that Voldemort is issuing orders via Malfoy to Fudge who then dispatches his toady Umbridge to do whatever it is that is necessary with no questions asked. Hence the terminology that Umbridge was instructed to try and get Trelawney removed. I've also been looking for the passage in OotP where Harry tells Ron that he recognizes the emotions that Voldy felt. It's one of those things that I just can't seem to put my finger on in that huge tome, but I know it was there. Because when I read it through the second time with that in mind I realized that Voldemort knew prior to Harry about certain things. Like the night that Harry was in detention and felt that huge surge of evil course through him when Umbridge touched him. The next day Percy wrote a letter saying to watch out for The Daily Prophet where he would be quoted and it announced Umbridge as being High Inquisitor. To me that signals that Voldemort found out that his plan to be able to wreck Hogwarts from within was going right on schedule. He of course would be informed before it would be made public. There were a couple of other instances that Voldy seemed to find out things either after (like the hearing) or before an event being made public that seemed to indicate when he was made aware of news events as they pertained either to Harry or Hogwarts. As for the Blundering Dunderhead theory, nahhh. I much prefer Fudge having signed some Faustian agreement for advancement and being unable to do anything to change that fact later on. The BD theory just seems to whimper to me and not bang. BTW, has anyone wondered about all the reams of paper that Harry signed in his own blood that Umbridge has? We know that human hair can be used in Polyjuice Potion and that blood can be used for other potions or spells. I would think that dried blood would also have magical properties and I am loath to think of what could happen to Harry should she have turned those papers into Fudge. And since Harry didn't mention his torture to Dumbledore or McGonagall possibly in trying to protect them from Umbridge's wrath, he may just have left himself open for really vile black magic being performed against him. Because he "voluntarily" wrote in his own blood. Athena From derek at rhinobunny.com Wed Dec 24 00:28:19 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:28:19 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fidelius swap was Re: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: <007801c3c9f0$897f6f30$a6706751@kathryn> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031223162253.025335d0@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87526 >> Mandy here: >> Only for the brief time at the end of PoA would Sirius really have >> died for James. Hind sight is alway 20/20. Before then. Absolutly >> not, and Sirius knew that about himself. He proved it by turning down >> the job of Secret Keeper. He knew that under LV pressure he would >> break and give away the Potter secret before he died. Kathryn: >He didn't *know* anything of the sort - he thought it was possible. Derek: Although I don't recall it being spelled out exactly this way in PoA, I think what Sirius really thought was that it was possible that *anyone* might break under LV's pressure... not just that *he* might. I think that's the key that helps make Sirius's decision make sense. If you're concerned that *anyone* might break eventually, then there's no such thing as an iron-clad Secret Keeper. Therefore, the next-best way to give the Potters as much time as possible is to make LV and his minions waste time by choosing a Secret Keeper you don't think they'll expect, but one you trust not to go to LV willingly. Sirius's mistake, IMO, was not in the idea of switching, but in the choice of replacements. - Derek From rayheuer3 at aol.com Wed Dec 24 00:31:03 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 19:31:03 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 8, The Hearing Message-ID: <103.3bf81449.2d1a3847@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87527 On the subject of whether squibs can see Dementors, Geoff wrote: >Ah, but they can.... >"'I'm a Squib,'said Mrs.Figg, 'So you wouldn't have me registered, >would you?' >'A Squib, eh?' said Fudge, eyeing her closely. 'We'll be checking >that. You'll leave details of your parentage with my assistant >Weasley. Incidentally, can Squibs see Dementors?' he added, looking >left and right along the bench. >'Yes, we can!'said Mrs.Figg indignantly." >(OOTP "THe Hearing" p.131 UK edition) Ray: An excellent point. However, the source for this information is Mrs. Figg herself. She had just been forced to admit that she was a Squib. While "Squib" does not seem to have the perjorative impact of "Mudblood". it is obvious that a Squib is less than a full Witch. Fudge then continues the insult by implying that, like Muggles, Squibs can't see Dementors. Compounding this was the fact that not one member of the Wizengamot seemed to know whether they can or not. Faced with this double insult, I'm not surprised that Mrs. Figg immediately insisted that, in this respect at least, Squibs are as much a part of the WW as Witches. Mrs. Figg insists that she saw the Dementors, but she was unable to describe them. So there is reason to believe Squibs can see Dementors, and reason to believe they can't. Until JKR gives a definitive "ruling", I guess we'll be forced to disagree on this point. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From belijako at online.no Wed Dec 24 00:54:14 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 00:54:14 -0000 Subject: Quirrel and Scandinavia? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87528 Susan wrote: > I was re-reading SS/PS lately and noticed that Quirrel seems to have > at least some contact with Scandinavia. > > One - he has some talent with trolls. I looked up references for > trolls on the Internet and discover that these are particularly > Scandinavian legendary creatures and are quite common in Scandinavian > lore. > > Two - he somehow got hold of a "rare" Norwegian Ridgeback egg to lose > to Hagrid in the Hogshead. Surely, he must have gotten this egg from > somewhere near Norway. > > This got me thinking. Where else have we come across relics from the > North? It occurs to me to wonder if old Quirrel might have something > to do with Durmstrang. The Lexicon implies that Durmstrang may be in > Eastern Europe, but we have no information other than that it is > cold, the winters are cold and students and teachers often have > Slavic sounding names. Scandinavia could be in the running for the > location of Durmstrang. > > Do any of our Northern readers have any other information that might > connect Quirrel with a northern country or with Durmstrang? Berit replies: I don't think I'm able to help you much even though I am a Norwegian :-) Trolls are certainly "native" to Scandinavian countries, and so are the Norwegian ridgeback it seems. Also the mentioning of high mountains, lakes and a harsh, cold climate + very short days in the winter fit well. The only problem I have (but this is also a big problem that can't be overlooked) with Durmstrang being in Norway are the Slavic sounding names that you mention. Those names would be very foreign to Norwegian language and traditional culture. To me that is a pretty good sign Durmstrang is NOT situated in Norway. I've always imagined Durmstrang located somewhere in Russia or Romania etc., so I am inclined to believe the HP Lexicon is right about Eastern Europe as the most likely location. Because of the Slavic-sounding names none of the Scandinavian countries fit the description, really. We could extend it to the Nordic countries too (that includes Finland and Iceland), but the language just isn't right in any one of them, not even Finland... P.S: The only historic incident I know of where a considerable amount of people with Slavic-sounding names resided in Norway was during the 2nd World War: The Germans shipped thousands of Yugoslavians to Norway and forced them to do slave labour. A lot of them died from hunger and exhaustion... My guess is that Quirrel very well might have been to Norway on "expeditions", but not because he visited Durmstrang but because he had other business there. The same way Charlie goes on field trips to for example Romania; the only tie being he needs to study dragons :-) For those of you who like details: The name Quirrel have a small resemblance to the name "Quisling" (first three letters are the same :-) which I am sure you all know... Vidkun Quisling turned a traitor during the 2nd World War, governing Norway during wartime on German orders. So being a "Quisling" is forever a synonym for "traitor". So, hm, maybe Quirrel was a Norwegian traitor :-) Berit From AllieS426 at aol.com Wed Dec 24 01:21:29 2003 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 01:21:29 -0000 Subject: Neville and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87529 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > My question is why that is. We know why he hates Harry, with > his past involvements with James Potter and the other Marauders, but why does Snape abuse poor Neville so? Any ideas, or is this another of the thousands of things that JKR will have to adress in the next > two books? > Meri Not much canon behind this, but my impression is just that Snape is (for lack of a better word) a huge bully. He was picked on as a kid, and now that he's an authority figure, he can lord his power over his students. Neville has always been very timid, so he's an easy target. I don't really believe the "tough love" theory as to why he's so horrible to Hermione, who is smart and competent in his classes. I believe that JKR herself has said that Snape is not a nice person. Allie From indpnt_vces at yahoo.com Tue Dec 23 22:14:33 2003 From: indpnt_vces at yahoo.com (Claire Munsell) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 22:14:33 -0000 Subject: Neville and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87530 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > I am in the process of rereading all of my HP collection and I am > presently in the middle of PoA. I have just finished reading the > chapter where Neville changes the boggart into Snape (The Boggart in > the Wardrobe, page 136, American edition). That Snape is Neville's > biggest fear is not surprising to me, as Snape bullies (torments?) > Neville more than any one else in Gryffindor, with the exception of > Harry. My question is why that is. We know why he hates Harry, with > his past involvements with James Potter and the other Marauders, but > why does Snape abuse poor Neville so? Any ideas, or is this another > of the thousands of things that JKR will have to adress in the next > two books? > Meri You know, I have often wondered the same thing. Even though Snape does seem to enjoy bullying people who appear weak, he seems to take a special effort to torment Neville(and the only other people he gives this attention are Remus and Harry). Therefore, I am led to believe that perhaps there was an old grudge between Snape and Neville's parents. But, I may be reading more into it then is really there; it might just be a way of illustrating Snape's character, showing his need to put down others. However, I wouldn't be surprised if we uncover an actual reason for the hostility. Claire From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Tue Dec 23 22:47:43 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:47:43 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville and Snape References: Message-ID: <3FE8C60F.1070703@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87531 meriaugust wrote: > I am in the process of rereading all of my HP collection and I am > presently in the middle of PoA. I have just finished reading the > chapter where Neville changes the boggart into Snape (The Boggart in > the Wardrobe, page 136, American edition). That Snape is Neville's > biggest fear is not surprising to me, as Snape bullies (torments?) > Neville more than any one else in Gryffindor, with the exception of > Harry. My question is why that is. We know why he hates Harry, with > his past involvements with James Potter and the other Marauders, but > why does Snape abuse poor Neville so? Any ideas, or is this another > of the thousands of things that JKR will have to adress in the next > two books? > Meri > Its simple really. Snape is NOT coddling Harry or Neville because to him, either one could be the one in the prophesy. He is tough on them to get them to try harder and to prepare either of them for what they may have to do. I'm not so sure Snape hates either of them, but finds them really annoying and it may gaul him that the fate of the Wizard World rests on either the son of his most hated enemy or a doofus who falls apart at the slightest bit of stress. Call it 'tough love'. Notice however that Harry is becoming more sympathetic to Snape and Neville in fact is becoming more sure of himself. After dealing with Snape, Neville likely finds anything else a breeze. Jazmyn From alina at distantplace.net Wed Dec 24 01:36:00 2003 From: alina at distantplace.net (arealin) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 01:36:00 -0000 Subject: Neville and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87532 "My question is why that is. We know why he hates Harry, with his past involvements with James Potter and the other Marauders, but why does Snape abuse poor Neville so? Any ideas, or is this another of the thousands of things that JKR will have to adress in the next two books? Meri" It could be as simple as the fact that Snape has a certain reputation to uphold. But also, consider the facts: a) Dumbledore never believed Voldemort was gone for good. b) Neville's parents were Aurors. So I think Snape was giving Neville a hard time simply so that he could at a moment's notice resume his double-agent activities without raising suspicion from V and Co. Alina. From derek at rhinobunny.com Wed Dec 24 00:22:27 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:22:27 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fidelius swap was Re: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: <006201c3c9f0$1739e4f0$a6706751@kathryn> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031223160945.0251ad50@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87533 >> Mandy here: >> I'm a big fan of Peter Pettigrew for reasons that he reminds me of >> myself in school. Tagging along behind a trio of popular girls, >> suffering all kinds of crap from them because of my desires to be >> wanted and included in the `cool' gang. I know what it feels like to >> place my desire of acceptance above my own self worth. Kathryn Cawte wrote: >I don't think there is any deeper reason at all. I think that like you said >he wanted acceptance and he *knew* they would never see him as an equal. And >as much as he wqanted to be one of the gang he resented them for that. [snip] >Peter's safety probably didn't cross his mind because a) Peter could have said no. No one was *forced* into this plan. and b) because he truly expected Peter >to be willing to die to protect James the same way he was. Derek: The irony of it is, they *did* see him as an equal, whether he realized it or not. Would Sirius have suggested using Peter as the Secret Keeper if he didn't think highly of him? Would the Potters have agreed if *they* didn't think highly of him? Doubtful. If Sirius thought Peter would "be willing to die to protect James the same way he was," then clearly Sirius, at least in this respect, considered Peter an equal. Yes, it may have come across as a bit condescending -- "We'll make the annoying tag-along our Secret Keeper! No one will suspect that!" -- but in truth, James, Lily, and Sirius all knew that it was *possible* that Peter would be discovered, and they would not have chosen him if they didn't trust him not to tell willingly... no matter much the main thrust of the plan was deception. If deception was all that mattered, and loyalty to the Potters didn't factor in, then they might as well have chosen someone off the street to be their Secret Keeper. A stranger would be suspected even less than Peter would. ;-) So if Peter did go willingly into the arms of LV in search of acceptance, he turned his back on genuine acceptance in doing so (whether he realized it or not). - Derek From kcawte at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 24 09:46:44 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 01:46:44 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fidelius swap was Re: The Sorting Hat References: <5.1.0.14.0.20031223160945.0251ad50@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: <001a01c3ca02$d7cbf840$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87534 > Derek: > The irony of it is, they *did* see him as an equal, whether he realized > it or not. Would Sirius have suggested using Peter as the Secret Keeper > if he didn't think highly of him? Would the Potters have agreed if *they* > didn't think highly of him? Doubtful. If Sirius thought Peter would "be > willing to die to protect James the same way he was," then clearly Sirius, > at least in this respect, considered Peter an equal. > > > So if Peter did go willingly into the arms of LV in search of acceptance, > he turned his back on genuine acceptance in doing so (whether he realized > it or not). > K You have a good point. He may not have been their equal at magic or sports or pulling the birds but when it came down to friendship they did obviously consider him to be equal to everyone else, and he didn't see it because he was trying to hard - and doesn't that sound like *exactly* the sort of thing JKR would do? And I've seen comparisons between Peter and Neville but this is I think where they differ - Neville isn't fighting to be accepted. He wants to be their friend (and although not as close as the main three he is their friend) but he won't compromise himself to get that acceptance. They accept him as himself - or they don't. Maybe because he's reserving all that need to be seen as an equal for his grandmother who he wants to see him as an equal to his father, but alas probably never will or not until it's too late. K From andie at knownet.net Wed Dec 24 03:06:10 2003 From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 03:06:10 -0000 Subject: Numerology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87535 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "angela_glor" wrote: 1) The Lexicon gives Hermione's birthdate as September 19, but I don't know which year. Let's say it is 1980, although the year probably doesn't matter much in canon. What does her numerology forecast say? Answer: Hermione's Destiny number comes out to a 1... which is a good match for Harry and may explain their wonderful friendship. (Notice I said friendship, as I am not a H/H shipper.) Here's what it says for #1's (Hermione): "This a the number of the pioneer, the complete original. Anyone whose birthdate adds up to One is determined to go their own way; they're independent, inventive, opinionated and enthusiatic. [Hermione opinionated? Ah, yeah!] They may even have ideas that are ahead of their time. You can't restrict these people because they will always find a way to express themselves and to realize their ambitions. [S.P.E.W. - I think that says it all.] Sometimes this perserverance can turn into obstinancy, bossiness, and single-mindedness that wins them few friends. [In SS, Hermione was having trouble making friends at first.] Ones are not good members of teams, unless they are calling the shots. They are natural leaders, which may explain why people approach them with caution at first - Ones automatically take control of a situation. [Hermione is always quick with her spells and to take control of situations.] However, once you get to know them, you discover their kind,affectionate and genial side." [Like Ron has certainly found... *hehehe*] Again, this is from: Predicting Your Future: The Complete Book of Divination by: Jane Struthers Okay, to me this sounds like Hermione in a nutshell. 2) Regarding getting 29 for Harry - You have to continue adding - 2+9=11. Normally, you would continue adding until you get one digit, but with 11 & 22, they stay as is. Andrea :) From kcawte at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 24 11:11:12 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 03:11:12 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Numerology References: Message-ID: <005b01c3ca0e$a43670d0$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87536 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "angela_glor" > wrote: > > > > 1) The Lexicon gives Hermione's birthdate as September 19, but I don't > know which year. Let's say it is 1980, although the year probably > doesn't matter much in canon. What does her numerology forecast say? > K lmao *gasps for air* 'doesn't matter much in canon'. Well no you're right it probably doesn't but do you have any *idea* how much time has been spent on that very point? I think the general agreement is that it's 1980 though, isn't it? Making her one of the very youngest in her year. K From andie at knownet.net Wed Dec 24 03:18:16 2003 From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 03:18:16 -0000 Subject: Numerology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87537 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "angela_glor" Do we know birthdays for other characters? I'm drawing a blank. Ron Weasley - March 1, 1980 (A Destiny #4 - in short, limited by something early in life but can rise above those limits. This must be Ron's limited money supply, right?) Andrea :) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Dec 24 06:45:56 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 06:45:56 -0000 Subject: Quirrel and Scandinavia? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87538 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" wrote: > Susan wrote: > > > I was re-reading SS/PS lately and noticed that Quirrel seems to > > have at least some contact with Scandinavia. > > > > ...edited... > > > > Do any of our Northern readers have any other information that > > might connect Quirrel with a northern country or with Durmstrang? > > Berit replies: > > ...edited... Also the mentioning of high mountains, lakes and a > harsh, cold climate + very short days in the winter fit well. The > only problem I have ...with Durmstrang being in Norway are the > Slavic sounding names that you mention. > > ...edited... > > Berit bboy_mn: JKR said in an interview that Durmstrang is in Scandinavia. Several of us have spent many hour gazing at our maps trying to determine the most likely location. So, get out your European/Scandinavian maps and look for a very large sparsely inhabited Russian peninsula to the north east of Finland. I believe the largest city in that area is something like 'Murmansk' (sorry, away from home, don't have my reference books). This is the only area that seems to fit all the available information. All of the other Eastern European cities are too far south or simply don't fit the description. One does wonder though if Scandinavian countries have their own schools of magic. Hogwarts, Beauxbatons, and Durmstrang are the largest and best, but there must be others. There does seem to be a significant amount of wizarding activity in Scandinavia. I believe the most significant cross-country broom race occurs in there (sorry, don't have my books available here). I guess my point here is the despite being in such close proximity to Scandinavia, and generally considered in the Scandinavian region, this Russian peninsula that I speculate is the location of Durmstrang, is still considered a European school. Logically, because greater Russia is considered part of Europe. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Wed Dec 24 07:31:34 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 07:31:34 -0000 Subject: Has Snape ever shown a bias against Hufflepuff? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87539 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shags the Dustmop" wrote: > Canon question for y'all, it sounds a little random I know but here it is: > > Does anyone know whether in canon Snape ever shows a particular > disdain for Hufflepuff? I know Malfoy does (too bad Draco wasn't > sorted into Hufflepuff, then he'd have just gone home, right?) but > does Snape ever actually say anything similar? > > I'm trying to work something into one of my fanfics and I need to > know (hopefully without trying to speed read all five books) > whether Snape ever overtly criticizes Hufflepuff House (other > than just saying Slytherin is better, etc.). > Not that I see. The only time he took house points from Hufflepuff was from one of a couple cought in a bush at the yuletide ball, and he was awarding unfair penalties to Hufflepuff against Gryffindor in one match, so he favored them over Gryffindor in that case. Of course, in potions, the classes we see are Gryffindor/Slytherin only. I wouldn't be too suprised if Hufflepuff/Ravenclaw classes with Snape are somewhat different. A class of hardworking and smart students sounds much easier to handle then a bunch of students bravely & courageously mixing ingredients together while being paired with students trying to get ahead by any means possible. --Arcum From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Dec 24 07:40:44 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 07:40:44 -0000 Subject: OOP:Favorite Lines... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87540 Geoff: I am far from being a Snape fan, but I suddenly remembered yesterday that there is one place in OOTP where he did make me laugh out loud.... "'Padfoot?' cried Professor Umbridge, looking eagerly from Harry to Snape. 'What is Padfoot? 'Where what is hidden? What does he mean, Snape?' Sanpe looked round at Harry. His face was inscrutable. Harry could not tell whether he understood or not but he did not dare speak more plainly in front of Umbridge. 'I have no idea,' said Snape coldly. 'Potter, when I want nonsense shouted at me, I shall give you a Babbling Beverage. And Crabbe, loosen your hold a little. If Longbottom suffocates, it will mean a lot of tedious paperwork and I am afraid I shall have to mention it on your reference if ever you apply for a job.'" (OOTP "Out of the fire" p.657 UK edition) Snape is so deadpan. I love the "if" in his comment to Crabbe. Also, interestingly, DJU refers to him as just "Snape" - eagerness overcoming politeness? From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Dec 24 07:50:22 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 07:50:22 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 8, The Hearing In-Reply-To: <103.3bf81449.2d1a3847@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87541 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: > On the subject of whether squibs can see Dementors, Geoff wrote: Geoff: > >Ah, but they can.... > > >"'I'm a Squib,'said Mrs.Figg, 'So you wouldn't have me registered, > >would you?' > >'A Squib, eh?' said Fudge, eyeing her closely. 'We'll be checking > >that. You'll leave details of your parentage with my assistant > >Weasley. Incidentally, can Squibs see Dementors?' he added, looking > >left and right along the bench. > >'Yes, we can!'said Mrs.Figg indignantly." > > >(OOTP "THe Hearing" p.131 UK edition) > > Ray: > An excellent point. However, the source for this information is Mrs. Figg > herself. > Mrs. Figg insists that she saw the Dementors, but she was unable to describe > them. Geoff: She /did/ describe them. Bear in mind that she was rather intimidated by the Wizengamot - 50 or so people sitting in a court and most of them looking down their nose at you. Secondly, how would you describe a Dementor? Any better initiall than Arabella Figg? "'..I saw Dementors running -' 'Running?' said Madam Bones sharply. "Dementors don't run, they glide.' 'That's what I meant to say,' said Mrs. Figg quickly, patches of pink appearing in her withered cheeks. 'Gliding along.....' ... 'Big and wearing cloaks,'repeated Madam Bones, coolly while Fudge snorted derisively......'" (OOTP "The Hearing" p.133 UK edition) I don't think she made up the fact she could see them. She was overawed - even felt humiliated. From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Wed Dec 24 07:53:30 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 07:53:30 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 8, The Hearing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87542 > Ray: > > seeing may not be the correct term. If we accept that > > non-wizards (including Squibs) cannot see Dementors, and > > Mrs. Figgs description seems to bear this out, then her testimony > > establishes that she was in the presence of a > > Dementor, not that she necessarily saw one. > > Geoff: > Ah, but they can.... > > "'I'm a Squib,'said Mrs.Figg, 'So you wouldn't have me registered, > would you?' > 'A Squib, eh?' said Fudge, eyeing her closely. 'We'll be checking > that. You'll leave details of your parentage with my assistant > Weasley. Incidentally, can Squibs see Dementors?' he added, looking > left and right along the bench. > 'Yes, we can!'said Mrs.Figg indignantly." > > (OOTP "THe Hearing" p.131 UK edition) > Not neccessarily. She just testified seeing them to Fudge. Saying otherwise when he asked would have been admitting to perjury. --Arcum From belijako at online.no Wed Dec 24 09:52:37 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 09:52:37 -0000 Subject: Quirrel and Scandinavia? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87543 bboy_mn wrote: > JKR said in an interview that Durmstrang is in Scandinavia. Several of > us have spent many hour gazing at our maps trying to determine the > most likely location. > > So, get out your European/Scandinavian maps and look for a very large > sparsely inhabited Russian peninsula to the north east of Finland. I > believe the largest city in that area is something like 'Murmansk' > (sorry, away from home, don't have my reference books). This is the > only area that seems to fit all the available information. All of the > other Eastern European cities are too far south or simply don't fit > the description. > > One does wonder though if Scandinavian countries have their own > schools of magic. Hogwarts, Beauxbatons, and Durmstrang are the > largest and best, but there must be others. There does seem to be a > significant amount of wizarding activity in Scandinavia. I believe the > most significant cross-country broom race occurs in there (sorry, > don't have my books available here). > > I guess my point here is the despite being in such close proximity to > Scandinavia, and generally considered in the Scandinavian region, this > Russian peninsula that I speculate is the location of Durmstrang. Berit replies: Actually, I didn't know Rowling said in an interview that Durmstrang is located in Scandinavia. Do you have the exact quote? I'm also a bit hesitant of including the Russian peninsula and Murmansk among the Scandinavian countries. According to my knowledge no part of Russia has ever been considered Scandinavian. Scandinavia consists of three countries only: Norway, Sweden and Denmark. These are the world's only Scandianavian-speaking countries. If you're talking about the so-called Nordic countries, it also includes Finland and Iceland. But no Russia. So, what I'm saying is that the Russian peninsula is not generally considered in the Scandinavian region :-) Just like Germany is not considered Scandinavian just because it share its border with Denmark... If Rowling wanted to say it was located in Russia, she would not have said "Scandinavia". If she knows her geography :-) So if Rowling has said Durmstrang is located in Scandinavia it'll have to be either Norway, Sweden or Denmark. Period. Denmark is out of the question for its lack of mountains, so that leaves Sweden or Norway... If you travel north in Sweden, they also have their mountains and harsh climate. I still find it very odd that Durmstrang's in Norway or Sweden. Both the name of the school (German-sounding) and the name of its students (Slavic-sounding) are very foreign to the Scandinavian language. Well well... Berit From annabellejane97 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 24 10:11:21 2003 From: annabellejane97 at yahoo.com (annabellejane97) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 10:11:21 -0000 Subject: OOP:Favorite Lines... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87544 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arealin" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, PurpleBear1976 at a... wrote: > >fav lines thread > > I know it's "a bit" late ..... Okay, my favorite is a bit late too, but I couldn't resist. Like so many other HP fans, my favorite character is Lupin, so it is no surprise to me that my favorite line in OoP describes his actions. The line I love most appears in Chapter 36 - "The Only One He Ever Feared." Just after Sirius died, Lupin simultaneously tries to restrain Harry, un-curse Neville and figure out how to find the others in order to help them. In doing so: "It sounded as though every word was causing him pain." For some bizarre reason, I think that is one of the most poignant lines, not only in the book, but in the whole series. To me, it foreshadows Lupin's ultimate role as Harry's mentor and guardian. At the time, Lupin had just lost his oldest and dearest friend. However, in the ultimate expression of selflessness, he put Harry and the others' safety before his own grief. I love Remus Lupin! -Anna From alina at distantplace.net Wed Dec 24 10:14:23 2003 From: alina at distantplace.net (arealin) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 10:14:23 -0000 Subject: Quirrel and Scandinavia? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87545 > I still find it very odd that Durmstrang's in Norway or Sweden. Both > the name of the school (German-sounding) and the name of its students > (Slavic-sounding) are very foreign to the Scandinavian language. Well > well... > > Berit > Maybe the combination of the school name, student names and Scandinavia tidbit is supposed to give us the idea that Durmstrang serves as the wizarding school for more than one country? It's an interesting question, actually, does every country have a school? Only three competed in the Triwizarding Championship, are they simply the most prestigious ones or are they the only ones in Europe? Personally, I think they are the only ones. Wizarding population looks to be a lot smaller than Russian population, I don't think they would need more than three schools. The only issue I see with my theory is the language barrier... So far, we've been shown that wizards do not have some magical "universal translator," which sucks, except for Bill Weasely, who gets to play private tutor with the veelacious Fleur. Alina. From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Wed Dec 24 10:17:31 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 10:17:31 -0000 Subject: Meek!Hufflepuff (Was Re: The Sorting Hat) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87546 > > Mandy: > > Hufflepuff is the house the majority of the world would belong > > to. Happily and unhappily following along, doing what is required > > of us, moaning about our lot in life but too afraid to actually > > change the world around us to make it any better. > > Kneasy: > You do yourself an injustice; Hufflepuffs are too meek to moan about > life, the universe and everything. Born followers, meekly trailing > behind the more forceful, hoping like hell they know what they're > doing and that all will be well in the end. Suckers, every one. Just a quick comment on this. (or not so quick, now that I look back on it) In OoP, Harry is walking back to his seat from the bathroom on the Hogwarts Express when he is ambushed by Crabbe, Goyle, and Malfoy. 6 DA members from a nearby compartment spring out to defend Harry, and use a wide variety of curses and hexes on them. 4 of the 6 were Hufflepuffs. (The other 2, for the record, were Ravenclaws, and none had been at the MoM. No Gryffindors at all.) Being a Hufflepuff does not make you meek, stupid, or unambitious. Nor do you have to be a follower to be a Hufflepuff (though they would make good followers). And they are hardworking at whatever they do. If they want to change the world, they will at least put a good effort into it! Hufflepuffs are just, loyal, true, and unafraid of toil. (Per the SS/PS sorting song) While Cedric is held up as a prime Hufflepuff, he also happens to be dead, so lets look at another classic Hufflepuff, Ernie McMillian. First time we see him, the Hufflepuffs believe that Harry siced a snake on Justin. Though Ernie was wrong about his conclusion, he'd clearly done his homework regarding Harry and the attacks. And, out of loyalty, they made an attempt to protect Justin from Harry. Later, when Hermione was attacked, he reverses his stance, makes a sincere apology, and became friendlier with Harry. It took a bit of courage, and it would have been easier to simply pretend it hadn't happened, but he did what was right and just, and admitted that he was wrong. He supported Cedric in GoF, and after his death in suspicious circumstances, he clearly trusted Dumbledore's words at the end of GoF, and put his faith & loyalty in both of them. Despite a summer of yellow journalism, in OoP, he is the first person to support Harry at Hogwarts who isn't wearing radishes on his ears: 'I want you to know, Potter,' he said in a loud, carrying voice, 'that it's not only weirdos who support you. I personally believe you one hundred per cent. My family have always stood firm behind Dumbledore, and so do I.' A clear statement of loyalty and trust placed in both Harry and Dumbledore himself. He follow up on this by joining the DA, and felt that it was more important then anything else they were doing that year. And, of course he was one of the four Hufflepuffs hexing Malfoy & associates. As far as hard working goes, he put 8-10 hours of revision a *day* in for the OWLs. With classes, none the less. He is a classic hufflepuff; true to his beliefs, loyal, doing what is just (what is right, rather then what is easy), and clearly a very hard worker. I suspect he'll play a more major role in one of the last two books and/or be killed. And, no, I wouldn't be a Hufflepuff; I don't work hard enough. I'd probably end up a Ravenclaw. And I'm not saying all Hufflepuffs are good. LV would love someone who was loyal to him, true to his beliefs in the pureblood cause, hardworking, and did what he thought was right for the cause. --Arcum From strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca Wed Dec 24 05:45:24 2003 From: strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca (strawberryshaunie) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 05:45:24 -0000 Subject: Favourite OotP Chapter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87547 My fave chapter by far is Snape's Worst Memory. Aside from *finally* seeing MWPP together @ Hogwarts, I was really touched by the true nature of Snape's grudge towards the lot of them. I couldn't help crying when I first read it! As a teenager with school troubles of my own, I have an idea of how Snape must have felt, and was really grateful to JKR for showing us that our heroes (i.e. James...Sirius...even Remus) aren't always as saintly as we'd like to think. From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Wed Dec 24 10:52:14 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 10:52:14 -0000 Subject: OOP:Favorite Lines... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87548 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annabellejane97" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arealin" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, PurpleBear1976 at a... wrote: > > >fav lines thread > > > > I know it's "a bit" late ..... > > Okay, my favorite is a bit late too, but I couldn't resist. > > Like so many other HP fans, my favorite character is Lupin, so it is > no surprise to me that my favorite line in OoP describes his > actions. The line I love most appears in Chapter 36 - "The > Only One He Ever Feared." > > Just after Sirius died, Lupin simultaneously tries to restrain > Harry, un-curse Neville and figure out how to find the others in > order to help them. In doing so: > > "It sounded as though every word was causing him pain." > > For some bizarre reason, I think that is one of the most poignant > lines, not only in the book, but in the whole series. I'd have to agree, but the one that got me, earlier in the book, was this: "Neville had already stretched out his hand, into which his mother dropped an empty Drooble's Best Blowing Gum wrapper. ...Neville said quietly, 'Thanks, Mum.'... 'Neville, put that wrapper in the bin, she must have given you enough of them to paper your bedroom by now.' But as they left, Harry was sure he saw Neville slip the sweet wrapper into his pocket." That last line always gets me. The image of Nevilles mom recognising him somewhere inside, and only able to express it by giving him empty gum wrappers, and Neville carefully saving each one is simply heartbreaking... --Arcum From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Wed Dec 24 11:24:39 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 11:24:39 -0000 Subject: Durmstrang in Scandinavia? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87549 (Changing the thread title because this has long not had anything to do with Quirrel...) "Berit Jakobsen" wrote: > I still find it very odd that Durmstrang's in Norway or Sweden. Both > the name of the school (German-sounding) and the name of its students > (Slavic-sounding) are very foreign to the Scandinavian language. Well > well... Arya: For me, it's the fact that they arrive in a that huge ship that rings of being some traditional Viking Longship vessel. The name "Durmstrang" is indeed * Germanic* in nature, but both Norway and Sweden are actually considered to be Germanic. See this link for a listing of countries/languages that are considered Germanic: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/northlinks.html Also, in GoF, (adult paperback, p363) Viktor is telling Hermione that in the winter, Durmstrang has very little daylight. This has never been mentioned as being an issue in Hogwarts (current fan favorite for location is Scotland) so I think we have to assume Durmstrang is in a far more northern latitude. Norway is indeed my guess. Hmm, I wonder how Hogwarts would have arrived at a Triwizard Tournament if it were hosted at one of the other schools....in a giant lemon drop chariot? From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 24 11:44:14 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 11:44:14 -0000 Subject: Meek!Hufflepuff (Was Re: The Sorting Hat) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87550 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arcum42" wrote: > > > Mandy: > > > Hufflepuff is the house the majority of the world would belong > > > to. Happily and unhappily following along, doing what is > > > required of us, moaning about our lot in life but too afraid > > > to actually change the world around us to make it any better. > > > > Kneasy: > > You do yourself an injustice; Hufflepuffs are too meek to moan > > about life, the universe and everything. Born followers, meekly > > trailing behind the more forceful, hoping like hell they know > > what they're doing and that all will be well in the end. > Suckers, every one. Arcum: > Being a Hufflepuff does not make you meek, stupid, or unambitious. > Nor do you have to be a follower to be a Hufflepuff (though they > would make good followers). And they are hardworking at > whatever they do. If they want to change the world, they will > at least put a good effort into it! > > Hufflepuffs are just, loyal, true, and unafraid of toil. > (Per the SS/PS sorting song) Pip!Squeak: And the heraldic symbol of their house is a badger. There are several badgers in British children's fiction. None of them are meek, stupid or a sucker. Badger in Wind in the Willows is probably the wisest of the animals. I suspect JKR was thinking of the badger Trufflehunter, a character in C.S. Lewis's 'Prince Caspian'. [Warning: minor spoilers follow] Trufflehunter is one of the first characters to recognise that Prince Caspian, despite being one of the Telemarines who conquered Narnia, is capable of being a true King to all Narnia. He holds this view despite his two friends disagreeing with him; solidly enough that the rather doubtful Trumpkin is willing to follow his lead. He fights in the war to put Caspian on the throne. When he is offered a sword to fight with, he refuses. His comment is that he is a beast, and if his claws and teeth can't keep his skin whole, it won't be worth keeping. When he is later praised for his true loyalty (he supported Caspian even when all seemed lost), he remarks that it's no credit to him; it's his nature as a badger to hold on. Trufflehunter is what a true Hufflepuff should be. He is just, he is loyal, he is brave, he holds on. He is aware of his true nature. He knows that he is not capable of being King of Narnia, nor does he try to imitate humans. He is proud of what he is, but knows that he shouldn't be especially praised for being what he was born to be. What he most certainly isn't is someone who follows along. He sees someone he can give loyalty to - then persuades others that *his* judgement is worth listening to. Far from being afraid to change the world, he goes right ahead and fights to change it. Far from trailing behind the more forceful, *he* is the more forceful. Trufflehunter does hope, though. He can see a better world than the one he's got; but he's clear sighted enough to see that he personally might die trying to achieve it. I think that Ernie (Arcum gave an excellent breakdown of Ernie's character upthread) is this type of Hufflepuff. Ernie doesn't follow the majority view, but the view he sees as right. He is just, and admits his own mistakes. There is a very distinct flavour that Ernie is proud of his ability to work hard. And, as a Prefect in his house, he seems to have some leadership ability. And he knows he's going to have to fight. Umbridge is wrong, wrong, WRONG in not teaching them defensive spells. Ernie is quite willing to risk trouble by being a DA member. I suspect that he will also be clear sighted enough to see that he might die against Voldemort, but will think it worth it. Hufflepuff's low status at Hogwarts is a true representation of the modern world. Loyalty, hard work and honesty are not only underrated virtues; very often people actively sneer at them. But be honest; a civilisation where there is no loyalty, no honesty, and where people want to get everything without working for it is one where the Deatheaters have won. I've argued before that the Wizarding World has lost its soul. They won't get it back without Hufflepuff. Pip!Squeak From dmoorehpnc at yahoo.com Wed Dec 24 05:11:27 2003 From: dmoorehpnc at yahoo.com (dmoorehpnc) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 05:11:27 -0000 Subject: Trelawney a future Voldemort Target? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87551 Tim wrote: > > It seems to me that now that the prophecy has been destroyed, > Voldemort may try to > > extract it from Trelawney. This by itself would explain why > Dumbledore keeps her at > > Hogwarts. > > > > Has anybody else thought about this? > Meri responded: > I thought that this was why DD kept her there in the first place, > Snip. Maybe DD keeps her out > of the goodness and inate compassion in his heart? Dmoorehpnc: I think Dumbledore keeps her around because she may make another prediction. Don't forget that Trelawney made a second prediction about Harry in OoP. From dmoorehpnc at yahoo.com Wed Dec 24 05:34:24 2003 From: dmoorehpnc at yahoo.com (dmoorehpnc) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 05:34:24 -0000 Subject: Who Gets the Noble House of Black? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87552 Just wondering, now that Sirius is dead who inherits Number Twelve Grimmauld Place Harry, Tonks, Narcissa? Will the Order still use it as a meeting Place? dmoorehpnc From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Dec 24 11:49:08 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 11:49:08 -0000 Subject: Durmstrang in Scandinavia? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87553 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > (Changing the thread title because this has long not had anything to do with > Quirrel...) > > > "Berit Jakobsen" wrote: > > > I still find it very odd that Durmstrang's in Norway or Sweden. Both > > the name of the school (German-sounding) and the name of its students > > (Slavic-sounding) are very foreign to the Scandinavian language. Well > > well... > Geoff; Comment has been made in the past that Hogwarts is not a Scottish name and it was pointed out that, although the school is 1000 years old, it was an "imported" foundation and hence has a non-local name. This could be true of Durmstrang. I have pointed out in the past that Durmstrang is one of those clever puns which JKR produces in the vein of Diagon Alley and Knockturn Alley. There was a school of literature and music in Germany in the 19th century called "Sturm und Drang" (storm and pressure). JKR has "spoonerised" this to Durmstrang. From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Wed Dec 24 12:24:25 2003 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 12:24:25 -0000 Subject: OOP:Favorite Lines... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87554 My favourite OotP lines? At the moment, here there are: "Indeed, a week after Fred and George's departure Harry witnessed Professor McGonagall walking right past Peeves,who was determinedly loosening a crystal chandelier,and could have sworn he heard her tell the poltergeist out of the corner of her mouth, 'It unscrews the other way.'" Iris From belijako at online.no Wed Dec 24 14:42:10 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 14:42:10 -0000 Subject: Durmstrang in Scandinavia? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87555 Geoff wrote: > Comment has been made in the past that Hogwarts is not a Scottish > name and it was pointed out that, although the school is 1000 years > old, it was an "imported" foundation and hence has a non-local name. > This could be true of Durmstrang. Berit replies: You might be right about that. Also, I did a little search on the net and found that part of the Durmstrang name actually has a nordic origin... At http://www.vitalog.net/ (the "What's In Your Name" website) it says "Strang" is: 1) Swedish or Norwegian, short war-like name meaning 'firm'; 2) English, referred to the original bearer who was uncommonly muscular or powerful. Looks like "strang" is connected to the English word "strong" and the Norwegian word "sterk". The closest name I could find for the first part of Durmstrang is "Dur", which according to http://www.last-names.net/surname.asp is: "Dur: In the Gaelic, signifies dull, stubborn, obstinate; also, steady, earnest, persevering." I don't know if that means "Dur" is of Gaelic origin, but that was all I could find. So, it looks like I have to take back what I said about the Durmstrang name not being of Scandinavian origin. It looks like half the name could have Scandinavian origin then. But I still stand by what I said about the name not SOUNDING Norwegian or Scandinavian. I still think it sounds German :-) Berit From meriaugust at yahoo.com Wed Dec 24 14:43:21 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 14:43:21 -0000 Subject: Who Gets the Noble House of Black? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87556 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dmoorehpnc" wrote: > Just wondering, now that Sirius is dead who inherits Number Twelve > Grimmauld Place Harry, Tonks, Narcissa? Will the Order still use it > as a meeting Place? > > dmoorehpnc I assumemed that if Sirius had a will and testament that Harry would get it. With the exception of Tonks and her mother, none of the other Black blood relations seem to have been on any good terms with the dearly departed Sirius, and since as early as PoA we see Sirius' concern with Harry's living conditions (when Sirius offers Harry a home following the shreiking shack scene) I think Harry will inherit old Number 12 when he comes of age at the end of the seventh book, so that after triumphing gloriously over LV, Harry has a home of his own to go to, with Ginny Weasly at his side (well, that's how I want the books to end anyway ;-)). And since everyone now knows that Lord Thingy is back, I don't know how covert the Order will have to be, but I would assume that they would keep the place as a back up, in case of emergencies. But the interesting thing to see will be how Harry treats Kreacher, who I assume will come with the house, if he inherits the place before he has had time to "get over" Sirius' death. Meri From belijako at online.no Wed Dec 24 14:58:38 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 14:58:38 -0000 Subject: Durmstrang in Scandinavia? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87557 Berit wrote: > > The closest name I could find for the first part of Durmstrang > is "Dur", which according to http://www.last-names.net/surname.asp is: > > "Dur: In the Gaelic, signifies dull, stubborn, obstinate; also, > steady, earnest, persevering." I don't know if that means "Dur" is of > Gaelic origin, but that was all I could find. Let me add that a similar surname, "Durkee", is of Slavic origin: "DURKEE : Slavic, derived from a nickname for a stupid, dull, or foolish individual." (http://www.vitalog.net/cgi-bin/select_name.cgi) The meaning is the same as the one for "Dur", so maybe our "Durmstrang" is a mix of Slavic and Norwegian names? Berit From CoyotesChild at charter.net Wed Dec 24 15:18:44 2003 From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 09:18:44 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Durmstrang in Scandinavia? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c3ca31$3b9848f0$4e60bf44@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 87558 > There was a school of literature and music in Germany in the 19th > century called "Sturm und Drang" (storm and pressure). JKR > has "spoonerised" this to Durmstrang. > Iggy here: Of course, some of the Southerner's down here who read the books seem to find the people from Durmstrang "durn strange." *grin* BTW: I used my Anagram program to check out the name, and came up with- Dungs rat Mr. (Think one of the men there, Karkaroff even, is an informant to Mundingus?) Iggy McSnurd From devonturcotte at yahoo.ca Wed Dec 24 16:27:37 2003 From: devonturcotte at yahoo.ca (Devon) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 16:27:37 -0000 Subject: Who Gets the Noble House of Black? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87559 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > I assumemed that if Sirius had a will and testament that Harry would > get it. With the exception of Tonks and her mother, none of the > other Black blood relations seem to have been on any good terms with > the dearly departed Sirius, and since as early as PoA we see Sirius' > concern with Harry's living conditions (when Sirius offers Harry a > home following the shreiking shack scene) I think Harry will inherit > old Number 12 when he comes of age at the end of the seventh book, > so that after triumphing gloriously over LV, Harry has a home of his > own to go to, with Ginny Weasly at his side (well, that's how I want > the books to end anyway ;-)). And since everyone now knows that Lord > Thingy is back, I don't know how covert the Order will have to be, > but I would assume that they would keep the place as a back up, in > case of emergencies. But the interesting thing to see will be how > Harry treats Kreacher, who I assume will come with the house, if he > inherits the place before he has had time to "get over" Sirius' > death. > Meri My guess is that for the time being, because Harry is "underage," the house would probably be left to someone in the Order (Dumbledore is my guess) to keep it for use while it is necessary. Death Eater relatives like Narcissa (or Bellatrix, who You-know-Who probably killed before we had opened the pages of the next chapter!) will likely be dead or in jail by the end, so Harry will probably be the only one left. From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Wed Dec 24 17:28:57 2003 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 17:28:57 +0000 Subject: Hermione, Krum, and Durmstrang Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87560 Speaking of Durmstrang: I observe in GoF that the large amount of information we get about Durmstrang comes either directly or indirectly from Hermione. Either it's what Krum tells her, or it's what she has read (I don't know where; possibly as a footnote to *Hogwarts: A History?*). She also tells the others that the exact location of Durmstrang is unknown. My opinion of the Hermione/Krum relationship is that it's not really a romance but more a combination of a) plain ordinary friendship (where is it engraved in stone that Hermione can't have friends of a different sex other than Ron and Harry?), b) appreciation of the status in having someone like Krum interested in her, and c) getting on Ron's nerves. But I wonder if Hermione doesn't suspect (especially after Karkaroff's disappearance) that it might be important to know *exactly* where Durmstrang is -- and that's why she's spending so much time on correspondence with Krum? If anyone can figure out its location from clues she gets out of Krum, Hermione can. When the day comes that someone's been kidnapped, or something's missing that they really need, or some other reason comes up and they really need to get to Durmstrang, Hermione may be the one who can produce the clues to its location -- if not the location itself. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Get reliable dial-up Internet access now with our limited-time introductory offer. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup From ldyisabella at hotmail.com Wed Dec 24 14:21:42 2003 From: ldyisabella at hotmail.com (Julie Stevenson) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 09:21:42 -0500 Subject: Durmstrang et al Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87561 >"Arya" wrote: >For me, it's the fact that they arrive in a that huge ship that rings of >being some >traditional Viking Longship vessel. The name "Durmstrang" is indeed * >Germanic* in nature, but both Norway and Sweden are actually considered to >be Germanic. In "Goblet of Fire" chapter 15, p246 (American hardback edition) we read this description of the boat that Durmstrang students arrive in: "Slowly, magnificently, the ship rose out of the water, gleaming in the moonlight. It had a strangely skeletal look about it, as though it were a resurrected wreck, and the dim, misty lights shimmering at its portholes looked like ghostly eyes." With all due respect to Arya, I really don't get the image of a Viking Longship from that description since longships didn't have upper and lower decks or portholes (an illustration and explanation of longship construction can be found at http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~jasen01/texts/longship.htm). However, given that the name 'Durmstrang' is a spoonerism for 'Sturm und Drang' and one of the most famous operas from that musical movement is Wagner's 'The Flying Dutchman' -- an opera about a ragged, ghostly galleon and its captain doomed to sail the seas for all eternity unless true love breaks the curse -- it seems to me that this opera is the inspiration for the Durmstrang mode of transit. Although it's been said in interview that American illustrator Mary Grandpre' is not given any special hints by Rowling towards the drawings she makes for the chapters, it's clear from the Chapt. 15 illustration that Grandpre envisions something along the Dutchman's lines, as well. Being an opera buff myself, I giggled and thought immediately of the Flying Dutchman the first time I read 'Goblet of Fire'. But I'm not the only one who made that connection -- David Colbert mentioned the same thing in his commentary book "The Magical Worlds of Harry Potter: A Treasury of Myths, Legends, and Fascinating Facts" (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0425187012/qid=1072275455/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-8503892-7360907?v=glance&s=books). -- Julie From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 24 18:53:25 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 18:53:25 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87562 Kneasy wrote: > Sirius is a pretty ordinary wizard; true he has mastered the Animagus spell, > but taking Peter as a guide, all that needs is practice not power. There is no > evidence that he practiced guarding against an Unspeakable or a Legilimens > or that he had the power to achieve resistance successfully. > I'm not sure how I feel about Sirius's pre-Azkaban powers, but I think you're underestimating Peter's. He blew off his own finger and killed thirteen Muggles with some sort of spell (couldn't have been an AK) and he AK'd poor Cedric, which indicates that he's a pretty powerful wizard. I'm not suggesting that he'd have had the strength of will to resist Voldemort if he'd chosen to keep rather than voluntarily reveal the secret of the Potters' whereabouts, but strength of will is a character trait, not an indication of power as a wizard (unless we throw occlumency into the mixture). they should have made Snape the secret keeper! Carol, who wants a pet snape for Christmas From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Dec 24 20:20:00 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 20:20:00 -0000 Subject: OOP:Favorite Lines... In-Reply-To: <1dd.c6048e1.2c276d65@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87563 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lynx412 at a... wrote: > > OK, so who has favorite lines already? And what are they? > The "Daddy" for me was this, from Snape, of course: "...And Crabbe, loosen your hold a litte. If Longbottom suffocates it will mean a lot of tedious paperwork and I am afraid I shall have to mention it on your reference if ever you apply for a job." Well, he has all the best lines in all the books IMAO, so why should this one be any different... June Happy Holidays/Christmas and whatever you are celebrating to all. May you receive whatever you would wish for yourselves. From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Wed Dec 24 20:49:18 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 20:49:18 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Hermione's owl Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87564 In the last chapter of SS, Harry wakes and sees Dumbledore standing over him. At one point, Harry asks, "You got there? You got Hermione's owl?" Dumbledore says "We must have crossed in midair." (SS, US edition, page 296-7) But then a few pages later (page 302), Harry is discussing things with Hermione and Ron. Harry asks "So, what happened to you two?" But then Hermione says an odd thing. "Well, I got back all right. I brought Ron round - that took a while - and we were dashing up to the owlery to contact Dumbledore when we met him in the entrance hall - he already knew ...." My question - why would Dumbledore say he must have crossed Hermione's owl if he met her while she was still on her way to the owlery and couldn't have sent it yet? I suppose it is possible that Dumbledore didn't know that Hermione was on her way to sending it and that she might have sent it earlier, but then wouldn't he have said something like "I saw her earlier. I understood what it was all about." And it doesn't make sense that he would honestly think that an owl with a message for him would miss him. The owl would have been looking for HIM and he would expect it to pursue him until the message was delivered. The whole thing seems strange to me. Either he knew Hermione hadn't yet sent the owl and would have remarked about it, or he thought she did send the owl and would have expected it to have found him sometime over the last three days that Harry was in the hospital. Then he might have remarked something like "Gee, I wonder where it has got to?" CV From alexpie at aol.com Wed Dec 24 20:53:34 2003 From: alexpie at aol.com (alexpie at aol.com) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 15:53:34 EST Subject: Scandinavia? Message-ID: <184.2434b071.2d1b56ce@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87565 I always assumed that Durmstrang was in Bulgaria, given that "Krum" is that name of an early Bulgarian king known for his wisdom and benevolence. Rarely are names in the canon random, as I don't need to tell any of you! Ba [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Dec 24 21:52:24 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 21:52:24 -0000 Subject: Fidelius swap was Re: The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031223162253.025335d0@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87566 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Derek Hiemforth wrote: >> Although I don't recall it being spelled out exactly this way in PoA, I think what Sirius really thought was that it was possible that *anyone* might break under LV's pressure... not just that *he* might. I think that's the key that helps make Sirius's decision make sense. .<< One other factor I've been forgetting: Sirius thought that Voldemort "would never dream they'd use a weak, talentless thing like you." In other words, even if Sirius cracked and fingered Peter as the Secret Keeper, Voldemort would never believe it. He would only think that Sirius was still resisting and refusing to name the real secret keeper. Pippin From CoyotesChild at charter.net Wed Dec 24 22:23:35 2003 From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 16:23:35 -0600 Subject: Goodbye Message-ID: <000201c3ca6c$95663cd0$4e60bf44@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 87567 Iggy here: Well all, I just wanted to drop you a line to say "goodbye." As of midnight tonight I will be removing myself from these mailing lists. To those in my writing group and a couple of others, I will try to stay in touch. To Caius Marcus, if you don't mind... I may still periodically send in the odd filk or two to you for your web page. To the rest of you... It's been real. *bows and walks from the room with a swirl of his cloak* Iggy McSnurd From grannybat at hotmail.com Wed Dec 24 22:51:08 2003 From: grannybat at hotmail.com (grannybat84112) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 22:51:08 -0000 Subject: (FILK) Peace on Earth, Good Will Toward HP4GU Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87568 My own very tiny, modest first effort. Inspired by and dedicated to filkmaster CM. God rest ye, merry Potterites let nothing you dismay. Our Harry books will keep us warm these darkened, Dursley'd days and save us all from Muggles who would censor harmless play. O tidings of Magic and Joy, Magic and Joy! O tidings of Magic and Joy. Wishing everyone in the HP4GU family safe and happy holidays, Grannybat From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Dec 25 00:04:59 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 00:04:59 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 8, The Hearing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87569 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: > > On the subject of whether squibs can see Dementors, Geoff wrote: > > Geoff: > > >Ah, but they can.... > > > > >"'I'm a Squib,'said Mrs.Figg, 'So you wouldn't have me registered, > > >would you?' > > >'A Squib, eh?' said Fudge, eyeing her closely. '... Incidentally, > > > can Squibs see Dementors?' he added, looking left and right > > > along the bench. > > > > > >'Yes, we can!'said Mrs.Figg indignantly." > > > > >(OOTP "THe Hearing" p.131 UK edition) > > > > Ray: > > ... However, the source for this information is Mrs. Figg > > herself. > > > > > Mrs. Figg insists that she saw the Dementors, but she was unable > > to describe them. > > Geoff: > She /did/ describe them. Bear in mind that she was rather > intimidated by the Wizengamot - ... > > Secondly, how would you describe a Dementor? Any better initiall > than Arabella Figg? > > "'..I saw Dementors running -' > 'Running?' said Madam Bones sharply. "Dementors don't run, they > glide.' > > 'That's what I meant to say,' said Mrs. Figg quickly, patches of > pink appearing in her withered cheeks. 'Gliding along.....' > > ... > > 'Big and wearing cloaks,'repeated Madam Bones, coolly while Fudge > snorted derisively......'" > > (OOTP "The Hearing" p.133 UK edition) > > I don't think she made up the fact she could see them. She was > overawed - even felt humiliated. bboy_mn: What I wanted Mrs. Figg to say at this point is, 'Running, gliding, skipping, prancing,... How they moved isn't the point! The point is, I saw the Dementors moving toward the boys'. Sorry, just had to throw that in. And for the record, I think they are many subtle indications during the event and during the recounting of the event, that indicate that Mrs. Figg did indeed see the Dementors. I would be more specific, but I don't have my books here. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Dec 25 00:24:53 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 00:24:53 -0000 Subject: Quirrel and Scandinavia? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87570 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" wrote: > bboy_mn wrote: > > > JKR said in an interview that Durmstrang is in Scandinavia. > > > >...European/Scandinavian maps ... a very large sparsely inhabited > >Russian peninsula to the north east of Finland. ...the largest city > > ... 'Murmansk' > > > > ...eidted... > > > > I guess my point here is the despite being in such close proximity > > to Scandinavia, and generally considered in the Scandinavian > > region, this Russian peninsula that I speculate is the location of > > Durmstrang. > > Berit replies: > > Actually, I didn't know Rowling said in an interview that Durmstrang > is located in Scandinavia. Do you have the exact quote? I'm also a > bit hesitant of including the Russian peninsula and Murmansk among > the Scandinavian countries. According to my knowledge no part of > Russia has ever been considered Scandinavian. > > ...eidted... > > I still find it very odd that Durmstrang's in Norway or Sweden. Both > the name of the school (German-sounding) and the name of its > students (Slavic-sounding) are very foreign to the Scandinavian > language. Well well... > > Berit bboy_mn: I will admit that my point was somewhat lost amid my scattered and jumbled thoughts, but the point was the Murmansk Peninsula of Russia while not technically a Scandinavian country; it is without a doubt in the Scandinavian region far more than it is in the European region. I mean, it touches Norway and Finland in the north, and completely borders Finland in the west, that's about as deep in the Scandinavian region as you can get, and equally far from what is traditionally considered Europe. Remember we can be talking about Russia in a discussion of Asian just as easily as we can talk about it being in Europe. It's a big diverse country. To refer to the Murmansk Peninsula as Europe may be technically correct, but it does not fit people's standard view of what constitutes Europe. For the most part, we have found in our past discussions that most people don't even know that the place exists. To most people, Russia is either Eastern Europe or Siberia, both of which do not fit the available information. As to the interview, I am at my mother's house on a terribly slow modem connection. When I get home I will look it up, but it has been discussed many times here before. If you search for past Durmstrang locations discussions you are certain to find a link to it. In a few days, I'll be at home on my own computer with my ever ever ever so nice DSL connection, and I'm sure I can be more help then. Happy Holidays to all. bboy_mn From suzchiles at msn.com Thu Dec 25 00:42:31 2003 From: suzchiles at msn.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 16:42:31 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Quirrel and Scandinavia? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87571 bboy wrote: > > As to the interview, I am at my mother's house on a terribly slow > modem connection. When I get home I will look it up, but it has been > discussed many times here before. If you search for past Durmstrang > locations discussions you are certain to find a link to it. I searched for Durmstrang on the Quick Quotes web site, which indexes all of JKR's interviews, and there weren't any hits. Happy Holidays, Suzanne From belijako at online.no Thu Dec 25 01:09:39 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 01:09:39 -0000 Subject: Quirrel and Scandinavia? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87572 bboy_mn: > > I will admit that my point was somewhat lost amid my scattered and > jumbled thoughts, but the point was the Murmansk Peninsula of Russia > while not technically a Scandinavian country; it is without a doubt in > the Scandinavian region far more than it is in the European region. I > mean, it touches Norway and Finland in the north, and completely > borders Finland in the west, that's about as deep in the Scandinavian > region as you can get, and equally far from what is traditionally > considered Europe. Remember we can be talking about Russia in a > discussion of Asian just as easily as we can talk about it being in > Europe. It's a big diverse country. > > To refer to the Murmansk Peninsula as Europe may be technically > correct, but it does not fit people's standard view of what > constitutes Europe. For the most part, we have found in our past > discussions that most people don't even know that the place exists. To > most people, Russia is either Eastern Europe or Siberia, both of which > do not fit the available information. > Berit replies: Thanks for the clarification bboy_mn :-) I see your point that the Russian peninsula is close to Norway, Sweden and Finland :-) But I still have to disagree with you that it is therefore included in a "Scandinavian region". The reason for this being that Scandinavia consists per definition of the world's only Scandinavian-speaking countries: Norway, Sweden and Denmark. The term has to do with the countries' official languages and culture, not its geography. Thus a country like Finland is not Scandinavian OR situated in a "Scandinavian region", regardless of how many miles of borders the country share with Sweden and Norway. Likewise; nor is any part of Russia. However; in Norway we use a term called "Nordkalotten" (could be translated "the Nordic Area") which includes both Finland and the Russian peninsula, describing the countries' whereabouts on the map rather than their language or culture. So "Nordkalotten" or a similar English name for this geographical area would be a more accurate term to use if Rowling wanted to say Durmstrang was located on the Russian peninsula :-) But these are the thoughts of a Norwegian :-) For all I know Britons and other "foreigners" might use the term "Scandinavia" to include more than the Scandinavian countries? Well, just wanted you to know that Scandinavians don't :-) By the way; I think in Norway most people are aware of the fact that Russia is part of Europe just like the Scandinavian countries are. After all, we're neighbours, so we keep in touch with what's going on over there from time to time :-) Berit From lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net Thu Dec 25 01:45:04 2003 From: lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net (Lliannanshe) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 01:45:04 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 8, The Hearing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87573 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > Geoff: > Ah, but they can.... > > "'I'm a Squib,'said Mrs.Figg, 'So you wouldn't have me registered, > would you?' > 'A Squib, eh?' said Fudge, eyeing her closely. 'We'll be checking > that. You'll leave details of your parentage with my assistant > Weasley. Incidentally, can Squibs see Dementors?' he added, looking > left and right along the bench. > 'Yes, we can!'said Mrs.Figg indignantly." > > (OOTP "THe Hearing" p.131 UK edition) > > Geoff Ah, but can they? (OOTP "The Hearing" p.144 US edition) "Whatever Mrs Figg said to the contrary it sounded to him as though the most she had ever seen was a picture of a dementor..." Lliannanshe From lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net Thu Dec 25 02:41:46 2003 From: lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net (Lliannanshe) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 02:41:46 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 8, The Hearing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87574 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > bboy_mn: > > What I wanted Mrs. Figg to say at this point is, 'Running, gliding, > skipping, prancing,... How they moved isn't the point! The point is, I > saw the Dementors moving toward the boys'. > > Sorry, just had to throw that in. > > And for the record, I think they are many subtle indications during > the event and during the recounting of the event, that indicate that > Mrs. Figg did indeed see the Dementors. I would be more specific, but > I don't have my books here. > > > > bboy_mn Mrs. Figg gives a very weak description of dementors She gives a detailed description of what she felt. This got the attention of Madam Bones. Madame Bones asks her "What did the dementors do?" From lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net Thu Dec 25 02:48:35 2003 From: lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net (Lliannanshe) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 02:48:35 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 8, The Hearing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87575 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lliannanshe" wrote: > > Mrs. Figg gives a very weak description of dementors > > She gives a detailed description of what she felt. This got the > attention of Madam Bones. Madame Bones asks her "What did the > dementors do?" Please excuse incomplete post computer suddenly on the Fritz Lliannanshe From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Thu Dec 25 05:56:38 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 05:56:38 -0000 Subject: Blundering Dunderhead (Was: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 8, The Hearing) In-Reply-To: <12f.381d0e08.2d19a2ef@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87576 Ray wrote: > I still don't believe that Fudge is intentionally helping Voldemort. He can > be termed a "puppet" in that, knowingly or not, he is helping Voldy's cause. > However, it is my feeling that Fudge is just trying to beat his own drum. It > was said in an earlier book that the only reason Fudge is MoM is that > Dumbledore turned the job down. Whether this is actually true or not, if it is the > common conception, Fudge will know it, and be looking for any excuse to show > that he is the better choice, by casting Dumbledore in a bad light. > > I have seen many examples of the "Blundering Dunderhead" official taking a > stand and refusing to budge on it, despite any evidence to the contrary. The > leaders of the opposing view (in this case DD and Harry) are misguided at best, > crimiinal conspirators at worst, and anyone who attempts to argue their side > has simply been "seduced by [whoever's] lies" It is ironic that, in many > cases, the BD (Fudge in this case) describes himself when describing his opponents. > > But we agree on Percy's motives. He has decided to hitch his wagon to > Fudge's star, with an eye toward eventually becoming MoM himself. This means > cutting off all ties with his family, who have aligned themselves with DD and Harry. > It probably causes Percy great pain, but once he has chosen to align himself > with Fudge, he cannot go back. Thus I describe Percy as "Blundering > Dunderhead - The Next Generation". > > Now that Dumbledore has been proven right, and the WW has recognized that > Voldemort is back and the DE's are again active, there will be repercussions for > Percy, Fudge, et al. IMHO, Fudge's political career is finished. He will > probably be forced to resign once a replacement is decided on. > Diana L. writes: I think your assessment of Fudge and Percy as "Blundering Dunderheads" is quite accurate. And I just love the name you came up with! LOL I also don't think Fudge is ESE or that Percy is a secret spy for Dumbledore. Sometimes basically good characters do dumb things that end up helping the villian and, IMHO, this is the case with Fudge and Percy. Dolores Umbridge is a different animal, however. Unlike Fudge and Percy, I don't think Umbridge is a basically decent person. Her pleasure in inflicting pain, torture and punishment for her own benefit and rise in power makes her another Voldemort in the making. But she is much more ignorant and down-right stupid than Voldemort ever was (and I think Voldemort is extremely bone-headed at times). Unfortunately, her stupidity and arrogance resulted in even more danger for Harry and the rest of the world because she tried to use an uzi (the dementors) instead of tweezers on the thorn (Harry) in the midst of MoM's blissful denial. Whether Fudge's career is finished...I wouldn't bet on it. Sure, the Daily Prophet might run an article titled "What the Ministry Should Have Told Us" [OoP, Chapt. 37], but I think the fact that Fudge has held the post as long as he has tells me the WW citizens aren't too picky about who is minister of magic. If you're right, though, and Fudge is finished, I would be delighted to see an ashamed, fallen Fudge in the next book - it would be as funny as OoP's Rita Skeeter, IMO. I wonder if the Weasleys are going to have a hard time forgiving Percy? Molly probably will forgive him, but I'm sure Bill, Charlie, Fred and George won't be willing to forgive or forget anytime soon. Another question is whether the rift between Percy and his family will be dealt with off-the-page, with Harry only learning the results of the family reunion after he gets together with Ron in late summer at the beginning of book 6. Since the books are from Harry's POV, it's very likely we won't witness Percy's return, if he does return at all. I also wonder what Percy's girlfriend, Penelope Clearwater, thinks of Percy's break from his family? Or does anyone else think they broke up as soon as they both graduated from Hogwarts? Fudge's interactions with Harry should be very interesting in future books. Fudge has accused of Harry of having 'addled brains', being a deranged attention-seeker and a threat to others. And he did all this by allowing (or even planting himself) derogatory, nasty comments about Harry in the Daily Prophet on a nearly daily basis for many months. I can see Fudge attempting a dreadfully stilted and embarassing apology to Harry upon their next meeting, but whether Harry will be interested in any of it at that point is anyone's guess. Watching Fudge squirm will be a pleasure. :) Diana L. From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Dec 25 07:43:18 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 07:43:18 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 8, The Hearing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87577 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lliannanshe" wrote: Lliannanshe: > Mrs. Figg gives a very weak description of dementors > > She gives a detailed description of what she felt. This got the > attention of Madam Bones. Madame Bones asks her "What did the > dementors do?" Geoff: Which is a very valid point. Most people meeting up with Dementors tend to come out feeling as if they've come through a hedge backwards. Look at Harry after his first encounter on the Hogwarts Express in POA; look at the incoherent state to which Dudley, as a Muggle(?) was reduced. Unless you are close enough to get any sort of glimpse of their hands or whatever is under the hood, "big and wearing cloaks" is probably about the best description you can manage. And, as has been pointed out by someone in POA(?), if you're close enough to see what is under the hood, you're in dire trouble, mate! I think bboy_mn in message 87574 was clsoe in saying that other things supported Mrs.Figg's avowal that she could see the things. Not entirely on-topic, but a Happy Christmas to all fellow posters. I hope you get more than a hand-knitted sweater from Molly as a present.... Geoff From houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Thu Dec 25 13:38:33 2003 From: houseofbohacek at earthlink.net (Gail Bohacek) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 08:38:33 -0500 Subject: (FILK) There's Going To Be A Yule Ball Message-ID: <410-2200312425133833949@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 87578 There's Going To Be A Yule Ball (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of "We're Closed For Renovations" from the musical "Little Shop of Horrors") Happy Holidays, everybody! (Scene: In front of the Gryffindor Common Room scrim) (Cue music for "There's Going To Be A Yule Ball". Prof. McGonagall enters, stage right.) Prof. McGonagall: There's going to a be a Yule Ball So you may let your hair down And exchange your school clothing For dress robes and for ball gowns You're representing Hogwarts so you better be polite 'Cause there's going to be a Yule Ball - tonight! (Prof. McGonagall exits stage right as the Gryffindor Ensemble enters) Harry: There's going to be a Yule Ball With Beauxbaton and Durmstrang Ron wanted to take Fleur out And I had hoped for Cho Chang Instead we're with the Patils which I guess will be all right To dance with at the Yule Ball - tonight Ron (speaking): Who are you going to the ball with, Hermione? Hermione (speaking): I'm not telling you, you'll just make fun of me (Hermione exits stage left) Ron (speaking): Who could it be? Argh! I want to know! Gryffindor Ensemble: We've seen the decorations And they are all mind boggl'ing With fairy lights a-glittering And bushes there for snogging The Weird Sisters will be there who we think are outta sight! Dean: The party will begin at eight! Lavender: In the Great Hall we'll congregate Sean: With dinner that will be first-rate Ron (to Ginny): Tell me who's Hermione's date! Ginny: I won't say, you will have to wait. All: We're really gonna celebrate! There's going to be a Yule Ball - (Prof. McGonagall re-enters, stage right, wearing dress robes of red tartan and a wreath of thistles around the brim of her hat. The scrim rises to reveal the Great Hall, decorated for the Yule, with Christmas trees, garlands & etc. The remainder of the Hogwarts Ensemble are already there and they all join in on the last word of the song) Tonight! - Gail B. houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Why Wait? Move to EarthLink. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From angel13cathleen at hotmail.com Thu Dec 25 13:17:19 2003 From: angel13cathleen at hotmail.com (Lisandra Stenth) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 15:17:19 +0200 Subject: What about the teachers? Don't they have a personal life? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87579 Hey all! I'm a new member of the group, and so forgive me if this topic has already been well-covered. But, especially if you have come to a conclusion, please tell me about it (well, write me abut it would have been a better line). I'm also really young, almost 15, and a Romanian citizen, but I have read all the Harry Potter books in English and I really adored them. Anyway, please excuse any of my language mistakes. My question is: Do the teachers in Hogwarts lack a personal life? As written in Order of the Phoenix, Professor Trelawney was intented to be kicked out of Hogwarts by Umbridge. So, she used to live there. Like all the other teachers. In this case they couldn't have had a personal life, a family or anything a normal human-being (either muggle or witch) usually has. Do they have to devote their entire life to teaching at Hogwarts? Until they become a teacher, do they have friends, can they married? In that case, when they become a teacher, they just stop living with their husaband/wife? And another one: are there things like divorce in the wizarding world? From abbet659 at hotmail.com Thu Dec 25 19:18:55 2003 From: abbet659 at hotmail.com (abbet659 at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 19:18:55 -0000 Subject: Another question for somebody in England (cost of stamps) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87580 How much is a stamp, is it the same size as a US stamp? Just wondering how much it would cost to cover an envelope with stamps. Seems to me that would cost quite a bit of money for a poor Wizard family, so maybe they made their own stamps. If they can make stamps, couldn't they make muggle money, have somebody launder the money, then take the real money to Gringotts and exchange it for wizard money? Abbet From kcawte at ntlworld.com Fri Dec 26 05:36:39 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 21:36:39 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Another question for somebody in England (cost of stamps) References: Message-ID: <001f01c3cb72$3f552200$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87581 Abbet > How much is a stamp, is it the same size as a US stamp? Just > wondering how much it would cost to cover an envelope with stamps. > Seems to me that would cost quite a bit of money for a poor Wizard > family, so maybe they made their own stamps. If they can make > stamps, couldn't they make muggle money, have somebody launder the > money, then take the real money to Gringotts and exchange it for > wizard money? > K Despite being English I am hopelessly out of touch and have no idea how much a first class or second class stamp costs. But on the manufacturing money issue - if anyone can manufacture money then it has no value. I saw someone suggest that you can't transfigure things into pure elements and I suspect that *maybe* that's why there is no paper money in the wizarding world only coins. Muggle money which draws it's value from the fact that it is linked to the wealth of the state - i.e. *technically* a fiver is a promissory note which guarantees that should you wish to cash it in the issuing bank will give you the equivalent value in gold. The idea being that gold is heavy, bulky and no fun to carry around so these notes were created instead and since the bank's guarantee is good then a five pound note can be exchanged for five pounds in goods or services. However, if more paper money is issued than the bank/government can actually cover, then the confidence in the guarantee falls and the five pound note can only be exchanged for four pounds of goods or services, or three pounds etc etc, eventually leading to hyperinflation (think Germany after WWI) and the need to pay for things in either gold itself or wheelbarrows full of money. Gringotts goblins, presumably understanding economics far better than I, cannot risk people simply mass producing these notes so they use coins. These coins cannot change in value because they are made of the actual metal and their value comes not from some belief that a bank will honour them but the actual intrinsic value of the coins. Presumably the coins are made of gold, silver and ... uh .... copper? While obviously you could make muggle money - the same theory of collapsing the economy would apply, thus meaning your muggle money could be exchanged for less and less wizarding money until it was simply not accepted at all. Plus I imagine that the Ministry would be a *teeny* bit upset if wizards managed to risk revealing their world to muggles by destroying the muggle economy - if they ever reveal themselves this would *not* be an ideal way to do it! ;) Manufacturing stamps however may be illegal and likely to upset the Royal Mail but won't actually cause the economy of the country to collapse in a shivering wreck and as such it is safe to rely on the inherent honesty of people combined with some kind of big stick should they feel tempted to break the law. K From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 25 22:20:48 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 22:20:48 -0000 Subject: Neville's family In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87582 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > I was just rereading my copy of SS (I am on vacation now and can > thankfully read whatewver I want!) and I came across this line in > the Sorting Hat chapeter, page 125, American edition where all the > new Gryffindors are talking about their families. "Well, my gran > brought me up, and she's a witch," said Neville, "but the family > thought I was all Muggle for ages." Neville then goes on to describe > the Blackpool Pier incident and how he almost drowned. My question > is this: why would the Longbottoms think that Neville was all > Muggle? Was his mother from a Muggle family? Or are the Longbottoms > not all wizards and witches as I thought? I always assumed that the > Longbottoms were an old wizarding family (ala the Weaslys and the > Malfoys) but maybe Gran and Frank were the only ones to have any > magical powers. Maybe that's why the majority of the Longbottom > family emerged unscathed from the first war: they weren't magical > enough for LV to care about killing them. Any thoughts? > Meri The line *is* confusing. maybe JKR hadn't invented the term "squib" yet when she wrote PS/SS. In any case, they're definitely a wizarding family. Since Uncle Algie drops Neville out of a window to see if he'll bounce and buys him a toad, I'm pretty sure he's a wizard, and Neville's mother was obviously a witch or she wouldn't have been an auror (or in St. Mungo's now). But the clincher for me is Dumbledore's reference to Neville as a "pureblood" in OoP (842 Am. ed.). I can't see Dumbledore being mistaken on such an important point. It was the Muggle blood on Harry's mother's side that caused Voldemort to go after him rather than Neville. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 25 22:51:47 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 22:51:47 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Greatest Fear In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87583 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lindseyharrisst" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "crisagi1" > wrote: > > > > > > > > So, what is Hermione's greatest fear, and why wouldn't Lupin > allow > > > that to materialize in the classroom? How would he know what her > > > greatest fear is? Does it have something to do with her having > > > figured out that Lupin is a werewolf? (But I don't think Lupin > > knows > > > that until later in the book.) > > > Crissy said ; during her final examination, she had to face a > boggart and it > > turned into Prof. Mcgonnagal telling her she failed her subjects. > > I don't think that Lupin purposefully didn't want her to face the > > boggart. > > Sorry if this seems a flippant post as it's so short, but I always > thought the only reason she did n't get to tackle the boggart was > that she answered the question about what one was at the beginning > of class (I think). Lupin was just giving everyone a chance to > participate in the class somehow, typical teacherly tactic to see > who cooperates by answering the first question and then make sure > the rest of the class participates so one child does n't hog all the > lesson time and the others can be assessed, rather than letting them > avoid it. It might be a sort of incentive - if you volunteer > something once you get left alone, so if you know the answer it's > the safest tactic. In addition, when Lavender and Parvati did see > the moon-boggart they thought it was a crystal ball. > Snapesangel Carol: I don't think Lupin would have objected to giving Hermione extra points for both the boggart and the question she answered. I just think that he had a good sense of what her boggart and didn't want her to be laughed at. Imagine if he'd been a member of that class as a child and had to reveal his own boggart. Even if his classmates (other than WPP) hadn't figured out its significance, they might well have laughed at it. Afraid of the moon (or a crystal ball)! So I think he was just being kind to Hermione. Carol From watsola79 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 26 00:26:08 2003 From: watsola79 at yahoo.com (watsola79) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 00:26:08 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 8, The Hearing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87584 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lliannanshe" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > > > bboy_mn: > > > > > > And for the record, I think they are many subtle indications during > > the event and during the recounting of the event, that indicate > that > > Mrs. Figg did indeed see the Dementors. I would be more specific, > but > > I don't have my books here. > > > > > > > > bboy_mn > > > Mrs. Figg gives a very weak description of dementors > > She gives a detailed description of what she felt. This got the > attention of Madam Bones. Madame Bones asks her "What did the > dementors do?" --lana lovegood here: I think it's interesting that she became much more accurate when describing what she FELT in regard to the dementors then when describing what they looked like....We know that muggles feel the presence of dementors but cannot see them. So I believe she didn't actually see them, but (like muggles) could feel their presence while (unlike muggles) she knew what was causing it. From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Fri Dec 26 02:03:05 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 02:03:05 -0000 Subject: Scandinavia? In-Reply-To: <184.2434b071.2d1b56ce@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87585 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, alexpie at a... wrote: > I always assumed that Durmstrang was in Bulgaria, given that "Krum" is that > name of an early Bulgarian king known for his wisdom and benevolence. Rarely > are names in the canon random, as I don't need to tell any of you! > Ba > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Also, didn't Krum play on the Bulgarian National Quidditch team? Fran From catlady at wicca.net Fri Dec 26 05:29:29 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 05:29:29 -0000 Subject: Who Gets Black House / Durmstrang / Krum / Personal Life of HogwartsTeachers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87586 dmoorehpnc wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87552 : << Who Gets the Noble House of Black? >>< "The House of X" can mean a building (a house) belonging to X, or a business belonging to X, or it can mean The Family of X, in terms of ancestors and stuff. I'm kind of sure that that phrase, Noble House of Black, refers to the family bloodline rather than to the building. << Just wondering, now that Sirius is dead who inherits Number Twelve Grimmauld Place? Harry, Tonks, Narcissa? Will the Order still use it as a meeting Place? >> to which Meri August replied in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87556 : << I assumed that if Sirius had a will and testament that Harry would get it. >> One thing that depends on is whether the house is entailed in some way --- 'entail' is some weird thing they have in law in Britain, where the person who inherits property is not allowed to sell it or will it, but the next heir is already determined by a rule (like always to the oldest son, or always to the nearest related male). If the real Mrs. Black disliked Sirius half as much as her portrait does, it seems she would have made a point of willing the house to someone else, almost anyone else, if she had been legally allowed to do so. On another hand, maybe she forgave him when he betrayed the Potters and killed all those Muggles, or just went too crazy to make a will. At any time since escaping from Azkaban, did Sirius have his act together enough to thinke of making a will? If yes, would he look at his dear godson Harry, with a nice inheritance from James, and at his old friend Remus, ragged and half-starved, and decide that Remus needed a bequest more than Harry did? << I think Harry will inherit old Number 12 when he comes of age at the end of the seventh book, so that after triumphing gloriously over LV, Harry has a home of his own to go to, with Ginny Weasly at his side (well, that's how I want the books to end anyway ;-)). >> Would you wish such a horrible house as Number 12 on the young newlyweds? I think both Harry and the memory of Sirius would be happier if that house burned completely down. Arya wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforG rownups/message/87549 : << Hmm, I wonder how Hogwarts would have arrived at a Triwizard Tournament if it were hosted at one of the other schools....in a giant lemon drop chariot? >> In the Hogwarts Express! Janet Anderson wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87560 : << I observe in GoF that the large amount of information we get about Durmstrang comes either directly or indirectly from Hermione. Either it's what Krum tells her, or it's what she has read (I don't know where; possibly as a footnote to *Hogwarts: A History?*). >> GoF, page 147, UK edition from GoF Day 2000, Hermione said of Durmstrang: "it's got a horrible reputation. According to *An Appraisal of Magical Education in Europe*, it puts a lot of emphasis on the Dark Arts." Altho' it also seems to me that she might have seen mention of Durmstrang in those books she mentioned as 'background reading' in the PS/SS scene where Harry and Ron first met her on the train: *Modern Magical History* and *The Rise and Fall of the Dark Arts* and *Great Wizarding Events of the Twentieth Century*. Ba wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87565 : << I always assumed that Durmstrang was in Bulgaria, given that "Krum" is that name of an early Bulgarian king known for his wisdom and benevolence. Rarely are names in the canon random, as I don't need to tell any of you! >> I am delighted with, and grateful to you for, this name evidence that Viktor is a good guy. Up 'til now, I've had to work very hard at ignoring that Neil said "Krumm" is German for "crooked" and my own ears told me it sounds like "crummy". However, just because Viktor is Bulgarian doesn't necessarily mean that Durmstrang is a Bulgarian school. Draco told his buddies that his father had considered sending him to Durmstrang; if he had done, that wouldn't make Durmstrang an English school. Lisandra Stenth (whose English is perfectly good) wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87579 : << My question is: Do the teachers in Hogwarts lack a personal life? As written in Order of the Phoenix, Professor Trelawney was intented to be kicked out of Hogwarts by Umbridge. So, she used to live there. Like all the other teachers. In this case they couldn't have had a personal life, a family or anything a normal human-being (either muggle or witch) usually has. Do they have to devote their entire life to teaching at Hogwarts? Until they become a teacher, do they have friends, can they married? In that case, when they become a teacher, they just stop living with their husaband/wife? >> Hogwarts Castle is *big* place, with lots of room going unused, so it seems to me that a teacher (or anyone whom Dumbledore wanted to keep around) could have rather a large apartment in the castle, with plenty of room for a spouse and children. The only thing is, Harry hasn't yet seen any very young children or unidentified adults at Hogwarts, so they must not have dined in the Great Hall in all these five years, so probably there's a rule against it, so presumably the children would feel very hard done by about not being allowed to attend Halloween Feast and Christmas Feast in the Great Hall. However, some of the teachers are old enough to be grandparents and great-grandparents, whose children would have grown up and have homes of their own. I figure *Dumbledore* is old enough to be a great-great-great-grandfather. It also seems to me that only the Headmaster, Heads of House, custodian (Filch), and gamekeeper (Hagrid) need to live in the castle, and all the other teachers could live in Hogsmeade, or anywhere they wanted from which they could Floo or Apparate to Hogsmeade and walk up the road to Hogwarts for their daily commute. Similarly, if living at Hogwarts, they could walk down the road to Hogsmeade and go to the Three Broomsticks, or the Hog's Head (Hagrid seems to go there often enough), or Floo or Apparate anywhere to visit friends. << And another one: are there things like divorce in the wizarding world? >> I haven't been able to figure that out. There has been no mention of divorce in canon, but the footnote of the essay on Lethifolds in FB mentions Janus Thickey, who pretended to have been vanished by a Lethifold, but was found 'five miles away, living with the landlady of the Green Dragon'. From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Fri Dec 26 06:44:35 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 06:44:35 -0000 Subject: Hermione, Krum, and Durmstrang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87587 Janet wrote: > Speaking of Durmstrang: > But I wonder if Hermione doesn't suspect (especially after Karkaroff's > disappearance) that it might be important to know *exactly* where Durmstrang > is -- and that's why she's spending so much time on correspondence with > Krum? If anyone can figure out its location from clues she gets out of > Krum, Hermione can. > > When the day comes that someone's been kidnapped, or something's missing > that they really need, or some other reason comes up and they really need to > get to Durmstrang, Hermione may be the one who can produce the clues to its > location -- if not the location itself. Diana L. writes: Do you really think Hermione would string Viktor along like that just to pump him for information about the location of Hogwarts? Even if she genuinely liked him only as friend, I can't see her becoming his penpal with the hidden agenda of getting Durmstrang's location. And if she didn't like him at all, I don't believe she would bother to write to him, let alone with a hidden agenda. Granted, us readers don't get to see what's in the letters that Krum sends to Hermione, but I would guess he's still fond of Hermione in a wants-her-for-a-girlfriend sort of way. Hermione seems interested in Ron, given the many hints thrown at us by JKR, but Ron hasn't acted on his feelings for Hermione in a positive way - not even as of OoP. By positive I mean Ron asking Hermione out for a walk or on a visit to Hogsmeade (a la Harry asking Cho). His jealousy toward any other male that is interested in Hermione is all that seems to show right now. Hermione, like every girl is at their ages, is much more emotionally mature than Ron or Harry, so she sees that another young man is interested in her in a romantic way and he's nice to her and flatters her with attention, and he's intelligent and fun to talk to (probably) as well (and he just happens to be a famous Quidditch player). It's not hard to see why, despite her attraction to Ron, Hermione's interested in Krum as well. Hermione doesn't strike me as someone who would disregard Krum's affections in order to wait for Ron to actively persue a romantic relationship. Krum's attention has greatly flattered her and she genuinely likes him and she is probably still working out exactly how much she likes him and in what way. Sure, Krum makes Ron extremely jealous, but that's just a small bonus; she's not going to be throwing away a good boyfriend candidate just because Ron has his head up his arse. Remember, Hermione did tell Ron that she thought he had the emotional range of a teaspoon. Ron's got a ways to go before he becomes a true boyfriend candidate for Hermione and she knows it. Ron or no Ron, Krum will do nicely is what I believe Hermione is thinking. Diana L. From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Dec 26 07:47:31 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 07:47:31 -0000 Subject: Another question for somebody in England (cost of stamps) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87588 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, abbet659 at h... wrote: Abbet: > How much is a stamp, is it the same size as a US stamp? Just > wondering how much it would cost to cover an envelope with stamps. Geoff: Current first and second class stamps are 24p and 20p respectively (round about 41c and 34c on current exchange rates). However, if you just wanted to cover an envelope, there are many lower denominations available which are used to make up totals. In terms of size, standard definitive issues are about 1 inch square. Special issues may be a bit larger, often rectangular about 1 1/2 inches by 1 although larger square format are becoming more common. From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 26 10:32:17 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 10:32:17 -0000 Subject: Another question for somebody in England (cost of stamps) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87589 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, abbet659 at h... wrote: > > Abbet: > > How much is a stamp, is it the same size as a US stamp? Just > > wondering how much it would cost to cover an envelope with stamps. > > Geoff: > Current first and second class stamps are 24p and 20p respectively > (round about 41c and 34c on current exchange rates). Snip > In terms of size, standard definitive issues are about 1 inch > square. Special issues may be a bit larger, often rectangular > about 1 1/2 inches by 1 although larger square format are becoming > more common. Pip!Squeak: I tend to buy stamps in sets of 100, so I had enough stamps on hand to make a quick experiment. The Weasley's could have covered the style of envelope used for personal letters with about 24 standard sized stamps. That would be 5.76 GBP. In the Nineties, where the books are set, it would be slightly less. So we're talking roughly five pounds. Mr Dursley is described as brandishing a sheet of 'writing paper', which in the UK is usually about 7 inches by 5 2/8th inches (177 mm x 132mm). These are usually sent in an envelope which is 3 7/8 inches by 5 5/8th inches (94 mm x 142 mm). The small paper/envelope size is usually reserved for hand written letters; the paper size is easier to write on than business size. If whichever Weasley had gone to buy the muggle stamps had been entranced by the ones with the pretty pictures (special issues), it would have been even cheaper. You could cover a standard UK small envelope with about 12 of these larger stamps. So, if they used the small envelope that is usually used for personal letters in the UK muggle world, they could have covered the envelope in first class stamps for between 2.52 GBP and 5.76 GBP Pip!Squeak From p51263 at aol.com Thu Dec 25 21:45:44 2003 From: p51263 at aol.com (p51263 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 16:45:44 EST Subject: Another question for somebody in England (cost of stamps) Message-ID: <3d.390125bd.2d1cb488@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87590 Well in the United States a stamp is 37 cents but I do not know what it will cost to cover an entire envelope and I am clueless on the England version of postage value. Patricia [p51263 at aol.com] From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Dec 26 14:58:07 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 14:58:07 -0000 Subject: Another question for somebody in England (cost of stamps) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87591 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, abbet659 at h... wrote: > How much is a stamp, is it the same size as a US stamp? Just > wondering how much it would cost to cover an envelope with stamps. > Seems to me that would cost quite a bit of money for a poor Wizard > family, so maybe they made their own stamps. If they can make > stamps, couldn't they make muggle money, have somebody launder the > money, then take the real money to Gringotts and exchange it for > wizard money? > > Abbet Belated reply to this, now that I have been allowed out of the kitchen. First off, the previous prices advised (by Geoff I think) were a bit out of date: the standard first class stamp is now 28 pence and the second class is indeed 20 pence. The episode of the Weasley's letter being covered in stamps made me laugh long and loud when I read it because it echoed a true life incident I remembered. I was working in a very small office at the time and was left in sole charge one day. I had to get an important package sent out - only problem acute shortage of stamps and no cash to buy them with. So I ended up using every stamp in the office, some of which were very low in value (one or two pence stamps). This meant that the package I sent was covered literally in stamps of all values. The Weasley letter must have looked just like this one. This episode in the books just must have been modelled on a real life incident, I think. June From CoyotesChild at charter.net Fri Dec 26 15:14:38 2003 From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 09:14:38 -0600 Subject: Speaking of money In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c3cbc2$fdfbfdf0$4e60bf44@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 87592 Iggy here: Can someone name the different levels of British currency and how they relate to each other? (Using the pound as a base...) For example: penny = 1/100 of a dollar nickel = 1/20 of a dollar dime = 1/10 of a dollar quarter (or "two-bits") = 1/4 of a dollar dollar = a dollar (aka. A buck) We also have, of course, slang terms, like a "fiver" or a "five spot" is a $5 bill A "ten spot" is a $10 bill... (which is the last of the two "spots") A "half note" is a $50 bill A "C-note" is a $100 bill Thanks in advance... Iggy McSnurd From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Dec 26 15:24:16 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 15:24:16 -0000 Subject: Another question for somebody in England (cost of stamps) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87593 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" wrote: June: > First off, the previous prices advised (by Geoff I think) were a bit > out of date: the standard first class stamp is now 28 pence and the > second class is indeed 20 pence. Geoff: Not entirely surprising as I make it a point of principle never to use first class letter stamps; addresses can either ewait an extra day or I'll email a lot of them! I do send packages first class but that's a different tariff. > The episode of the Weasley's letter being covered in stamps made me > laugh long and loud when I read it because it echoed a true life > incident I remembered. I was working in a very small office at the > time and was left in sole charge one day. I had to get an important > package sent out - only problem acute shortage of stamps and no cash > to buy them with. So I ended up using every stamp in the office, > some of which were very low in value (one or two pence stamps). > This meant that the package I sent was covered literally in stamps > of all values. The Weasley letter must have looked just like this > one. Geoff: This was own reaction to Pip!Squeak's calculations in message 87589 where the cost was calculated using first clss stamps. The letter could be covered with low value stamps - values down to single figures in pence are available (to make up amounts as I said before) so the whole envelope could be covered in a lot less than ?2.52. From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 26 15:39:47 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 15:39:47 -0000 Subject: Speaking of money In-Reply-To: <000201c3cbc2$fdfbfdf0$4e60bf44@Einstein> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87594 : > Iggy here: > > Can someone name the different levels of British currency and how > they relate to each other? (Using the pound as a base...) Pip!Squeak: Well, modern British muggle money is similar to the US system; it's a decimal based system. One pound is 100 pennies. This is the system that has been in use for all Harry's life. We don't have names for the different coins, because it's too new a system - I think we decimalised in either the late sixties or early seventies. So they are just called 'fivepence', 'tenpence'. Though you might hear 'twopence' pronounced as 'tuppence' and a penny as 'one pee'. The most common slang is to add the -er to the notes; so oncer, fiver, tenner. JKR's WW money is based on the old English money system, which was complete bloody chaos. She's made up the proportions (29 knuts to a Sickle and 17 Sickles to a Galleon), but it's close to the original. The pre-decimalisation money system was what you get when you add coins as you need them over several centuries, with no one ever actually bothering to rationalise anything. ;-) The basic unit was the penny, which could be divided into four farthings, or two halfpenny's (pronounced 'haypenny'). Twelve pennies made a shilling. Five shillings made a Crown. Four Crowns (20 shillings) made a pound. Instead of the Pound, many prices, fees etc. were calculated in Guineas. That was 21 shillings. There were also some quite wonderful coins, such as the half-a- crown, which makes sense in terms of being half of a Crown, but not so much sense when you work out that it's two Shillings and six Pence. Compared with the older muggle system, Galleons Sickles and Knuts look perfectly rational. ;-) Pip!Squeak From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Dec 26 15:44:41 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 15:44:41 -0000 Subject: Speaking of money In-Reply-To: <000201c3cbc2$fdfbfdf0$4e60bf44@Einstein> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87595 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Iggy McSnurd" wrote: Iggy: > Can someone name the different levels of British currency and how they > relate to each other? (Using the pound as a base...) > Geoff: Since we went decimal in February 1971, it's been a lot easier and less interesting. Basically, a pound is divided into 100 pence. Coins are either copper or silver (not really silver but that's the colour - I'm not sure whether they're cupro-nickel). Pound coins and above are a sort of gold colour and are thicker and heavier than lower values. Copper coins = 1p and 2p (approx diameters - 20mm, 25mm respectively) Silver coins = 5p, 10p 20p and 50p The two latter are unusual in that they are seven sided with a slight curve on each side. I have heard them referred to as equilateral heptagons, which to me as a Maths teacher doesn't sound right. (Approx. diameters - 18mm, 24mm, 21mm and 27mm respectively) Pound coins = ?1 and ?2 (?1 = approx. 22mm. I haven't got a ?2 coin to hand) Notes: ?5, ?10, ?20 ?50 in common circulation, higher denominations also available) ?5 and ?10 notes often called fivers and tenners but many nicknames disappeared in 1971 - boring isn't it? Interesting thought comparing with the Wizarding World, they don't appear to have notes do they? Just the three basic coins. the derivation of their names might be an interesting topic to pursue. Knut is a Scandinian naem - reminds me of our historical King Canute who tried to stop the tide..... From CoyotesChild at charter.net Fri Dec 26 16:04:33 2003 From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 10:04:33 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Speaking of money In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c3cbc9$f6a85d80$4e60bf44@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 87596 > -----Original Message----- > From: Geoff Bannister > Interesting thought comparing with the Wizarding World, they don't > appear to have notes do they? Just the three basic coins. the > derivation of their names might be an interesting topic to pursue. > Knut is a Scandinian naem - reminds me of our historical King Canute > who tried to stop the tide..... > Iggy here: Well, a sickle is a hand tool with a curved blade used for harvesting grain. (Not to be confused with the two-handed scythe.) And a Galleon is a form of war-ship that often traveled the Spanish main, and was popular with pirates who traveled the same routes looking for merchants carrying Spanish gold. Interesting when you look at the fact that a knute is relatively insignificant as a coin... much like Canute was insignificant when compared against the tides he tried to halt... The sickle is a reasonable weapon and tool, and the galleon is a very formidable and impressive ship in the old days that was also very valuable. Iggy McSnurd From grannybat at hotmail.com Fri Dec 26 16:58:17 2003 From: grannybat at hotmail.com (grannybat84112) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 16:58:17 -0000 Subject: Hermione, Krum, and Durmstrang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87597 Janet wrote: > >>I wonder if Hermione doesn't suspect (especially after Karkaroff's >>disappearance) that it might be important to know *exactly* where >>Durmstrang is -- and that's why she's spending so much time on >>correspondence with Krum? If anyone can figure out >>its location from clues she gets out of Krum, Hermione can. Then Diana L. wrote: > > Do you really think Hermione would string Viktor along like that > just to pump him for information about the location of Hogwarts? > Even if she genuinely liked him only as friend, I can't see her > becoming his penpal with the hidden agenda of getting Durmstrang's > location. And if she didn't like him at all, I don't believe she > would bother to write to him, let alone with a hidden agenda. > Granted, readers don't get to see what's in the letters that Krum > sends to Hermione, but I would guess he's still fond of Hermione in > a wants-her-for-a-girlfriend sort of way. I doubt she'd have to manipulate Viktor at all if she wanted information about Durmstrang; she could simply ask him outright. Krum no longer owes or enjoys any loyalty to Karkaroff. (If my headmaster abandoned me and my entire class in a foreign country, I certainly wouldn't.) At the end of GoF when the Trio questions him about getting home safely, Krum is openly contemptuous of Karkaroff's minimal role in managing the magical ship. When asked what will happen to his cowardly mentor now that the man has fled, Krum literally shrugs off the question. He doesn't care. The forthright, earnest (I can't say happy; JKR hasn't shown us a smiley, eager Victor) way in which he described the environs of his "home" to Hermione at the Yule Ball dinner makes me think Krum was glad to talk to a girl who was interested in his life beyond sports and celebrity. I never got the impression that there was any real reason to keep Durmstrang's location a secret--beyond Karkaroff's paranoia. Diana again: > Hermione... is much more emotionally mature than > Ron or Harry, so she sees that another young man is interested in > her in a romantic way and he's nice to her and flatters her with > attention, and he's intelligent and fun to talk to (probably) as > well (and he just happens to be a famous Quidditch player). I doubt the Quidditch angle matters to her at all. In GoF she's irritated by the pack of fangirls that follows Krum into the library, and in OoP she airily dismisses the sport as a divisive influence among Magical people. "Hermione, you may be good on feelings and stuff, but you don't know Quidditch!" No, I think she's far more attracted to Krum for his mind. He's a top student who appears to devote as much time to his academic life as Hermione does. They probably share long, in-depth conversations about magical theory and spell research that Hermione could never have with Harry and Ron. A brilliant, somewhat socially awkward young woman would very much enjoy being admired and sought after by a brilliant, somewhat socially awkward young man who treats her as his intellectual peer. I'm hoping we'll see Krum take an active role in the upcoming battles; he's an interesting character who deserves more development. I'm also hoping to see Hermione do something really cool on a broom. Grannybat From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Dec 26 20:31:10 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:31:10 -0000 Subject: Speaking of money In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87598 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" wrote: > : > > Iggy here: > > > > Can someone name the different levels of British currency and how > > they relate to each other? (Using the pound as a base...) > > Pip!Squeak: > Well, modern British muggle money is similar to the US system; it's > a decimal based system. One pound is 100 pennies. This is the > system that has been in use for all Harry's life. > > We don't have names for the different coins, because it's too new a > system - I think we decimalised in either the late sixties or early > seventies. So they are just called 'fivepence', 'tenpence'. Though > you might hear 'twopence' pronounced as 'tuppence' and a penny > as 'one pee'. Geoff: In the areas which I know well - London and West Somerset - you don't hear "tuppence" or "thruppence" (which was the odd sounding one) or "fourpence" etc. There was an attempt to call the new coins "new pence" and we had things like 35np on notices for a very short while until the average English person decided that pence was good enough. But it is very much the norm now to refer to "one pee", "two pee", "five pee" etc. for the coins. We also had a daft half new pence coin, so we had a crazy system for about three years where we had 1/2 (written as a fraction) tacked onto the end of a decimal figure which made Maths teachers like myself foam at the mouth with fury. Pip!Squeak: > The most common slang is to add the -er to the notes; so oncer, > fiver, tenner. Geoff: Except we have no one pound note now. In general terms, pounds are often called "quids" as in the sort of situation "lend me a couple of quid would you?" or "the new DVD player set me back 80 quid". And of course a "grand" is ?1000. Pip!Squaek: > JKR's WW money is based on the old English money system, which was > complete bloody chaos. She's made up the proportions (29 knuts to a > Sickle and 17 Sickles to a Galleon), but it's close to the original. > The pre-decimalisation money system was what you get when you add > coins as you need them over several centuries, with no one ever > actually bothering to rationalise anything. ;-) > > The basic unit was the penny, which could be divided into four > farthings, or two halfpenny's (pronounced 'haypenny'). Twelve > pennies made a shilling. Five shillings made a Crown. Four Crowns > (20 shillings) made a pound. > > Instead of the Pound, many prices, fees etc. were calculated in > Guineas. That was 21 shillings. > > There were also some quite wonderful coins, such as the half-a- > crown, which makes sense in terms of being half of a Crown, but not > so much sense when you work out that it's two Shillings and six > Pence. Geoff: In 20th century terms, it wasn't particularly chaotic. All you had to remember was 12 pence to a shilling and 20 shillings to a pound. Farthings went out in the 1950s and crowns were never referred to in everyday speech because there were no crowns in ordinary circulation. Guineas again had a fairly specialised use in latter days very often in such things as art sales or auctions. the name still survives in the Newamrket 1000 guineas horse race today. What we have lost are the old nicknames - "tanner" for a sixpence, "bob" for a shilling. "Florin" was used for a two shilling piece which was introduced in an abortive 19th century plan to go decimal. Far more chaotic was the Imperial system of weights and measures... weights: ounce/pound/stone/quarter/hundredweight/ton lengths: inch/foot/yard/chain/furlong/mile Pip!Squeak: > Compared with the older muggle system, Galleons Sickles and Knuts > look perfectly rational. ;-) Geoff: I have my doubts. 12 pence to a shilling and 20 shillings to a pound give you a fairly mathematical 240 pence to a pound. 12 is a very handy number base to have in terms of factors etc. 29 Knuts to a Sickle and 17 Sickles to a Galleon gives you a very helpful 493 knuts to a Galleon! Try getting Arthur Weasley to convert that to USD. :-) From catlady at wicca.net Fri Dec 26 20:49:07 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:49:07 -0000 Subject: Speaking of money In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87599 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > Interesting thought comparing with the Wizarding World, they don't > appear to have notes do they? Just the three basic coins. the > derivation of their names might be an interesting topic to pursue. > Knut is a Scandinian naem - reminds me of our historical King > Canute who tried to stop the tide..... Galleon starts with G for Gold Sickle starts with S for Silver Knut starts with K for .... Kopper, I guess, but she always calls them 'bronze' Knuts. (I just corrected a typo: transposition of N and U. Another reference to the Kyprian goddess?) 29 bronze Knuts = 1 silver Sickle. Of course it's a prime number so that a half-Sickle or third-Sickle won't be an even number of Knuts, but it's also roughly the number of days in a lunar month. The moon is silver colored and some of its phases are sickle-shaped. She could have chosen the prime number 13 for how many Sickles in a golden (sun-colored) Galleon, which is (very) roughly the number of lunar months in a year, and thus the money would be a model of astronomical cycles. She could have driven all money-users even crazier by declaring that there are 12 and 1/3 Sickles in a Galleon! (In honor of the half- crown mentioned by Pip!Squeak, 2s 6d. Btw the abbreviation 'd' for Old Penny comes from Latin denarius, which is what the penny was supposed to be worth at the time the abbreviation was invented. From One-Look, the 1828 Webster's defines 'denarius' as 'four pence. A day's wage for a common laborer.' The American dime is not named after the denarius, but was designed to look like one. 'Dinar' and 'dinero' are words that both evolved from 'denarius'.) Alas, she chose a different prime number (and I can never remember if it's 17 or 19) for Sickles in a Galleon. If it's 17, at least it would echo the age of majority. Footnotes: One-Look Dictionary: http://www.onelook.com/index.html G'rrr, 1828 isn't coming up just now. Here's 1913: http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?WORD=denarius "A Roman silver coin of the value of about fourteen cents; the 'penny' of the New Testament; -- so called from being worth originally ten of the pieces called as." Here is a Bible dictionary: http://ebible.org/bible/web/glossary.htm#denarius "A denarius is a silver Roman coin worth about a day's wages for an agricultural laborer. A denarius was worth 1/25th of a Roman aureus." From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 27 04:53:51 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:53:51 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Speaking of money References: Message-ID: <009001c3cc35$6c845250$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87600 Geoff: Except we have no one pound note now. In general terms, pounds are often called "quids" as in the sort of situation "lend me a couple of quid would you?" or "the new DVD player set me back 80 quid". And of course a "grand" is 1000. K Oh come on, everyone here is totally missing the opportunity to confuse our American cousins with the sort of slang that seventies cop shows would have you believe is used by *every* criminal in the world (and used car dealers but no one else, it was a sort of shorthand in the minds of writers for convincing you that a certain character was dodgy) - monkey, pony etc etc. K From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Fri Dec 26 20:54:12 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:54:12 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 8, The Hearing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87601 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: > > > On the subject of whether squibs can see Dementors, Geoff wrote: > > > > Geoff: > > >'A Squib, eh?' said Fudge, eyeing her closely. '... Incidentally, > > > > can Squibs see Dementors?' he added, looking left and right > > > > along the bench. > > > > > > > >'Yes, we can!'said Mrs.Figg indignantly." > > > > > > >(OOTP "THe Hearing" p.131 UK edition) > > > > > > Ray: > > > ... However, the source for this information is Mrs. Figg > > > herself. > > > > > > > > > Mrs. Figg insists that she saw the Dementors, but she was unable > > > to describe them. > > > > Geoff: > > She /did/ describe them. Bear in mind that she was rather > > intimidated by the Wizengamot - ... > > > > Secondly, how would you describe a Dementor? Any better initiall > > than Arabella Figg? > > > > "'..I saw Dementors running -' > > 'Running?' said Madam Bones sharply. "Dementors don't run, they > > glide.' > > > > 'That's what I meant to say,' said Mrs. Figg quickly, patches of > > pink appearing in her withered cheeks. 'Gliding along.....' > > > > ... > > > > 'Big and wearing cloaks,'repeated Madam Bones, coolly while Fudge > > snorted derisively......'" > > > > (OOTP "The Hearing" p.133 UK edition) > > > > I don't think she made up the fact she could see them. She was > > overawed - even felt humiliated. > > bboy_mn: > > What I wanted Mrs. Figg to say at this point is, 'Running, gliding, > skipping, prancing,... How they moved isn't the point! The point is, I > saw the Dementors moving toward the boys'. > > Sorry, just had to throw that in. > > And for the record, I think they are many subtle indications during > the event and during the recounting of the event, that indicate that > Mrs. Figg did indeed see the Dementors. I would be more specific, but > I don't have my books here. > > > > bboy_mn I dont have my book with me either but didn't Harry ask her is she could see the dementors after the incident in the alley and she said yes and told him to keep his wand out in case they came back? Fran From catlady at wicca.net Fri Dec 26 21:42:37 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 21:42:37 -0000 Subject: Speaking of money In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87602 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > Geoff: In 20th century terms, it wasn't particularly chaotic. All > you had to remember was 12 pence to a shilling and 20 shillings to > a pound. Farthings went out in the 1950s and crowns were never > referred to in everyday speech because there were no crowns in > ordinary circulation. Guineas again had a fairly specialised use in > latter days very often in such things as art sales or auctions. The > name still survives in the Newamrket 1000 guineas horse race today. > What we have lost are the old nicknames - "tanner" for a sixpence, > "bob" for a shilling. "Florin" was used for a two shilling piece > which was introduced in an abortive 19th century plan to go decimal. What was a sovereign? > Far more chaotic was the Imperial system of weights and measures... > weights: ounce/pound/stone/quarter/hundredweight/ton > lengths: inch/foot/yard/chain/furlong/mile I'm moving Weights and Measures to OT. > Geoff: > 29 Knuts to a Sickle and 17 Sickles to a Galleon gives you a very > helpful 493 knuts to a Galleon! Try getting Arthur Weasley to > convert that to USD. IIRC JKR said (quite illogically) that a Galleon is worth about 5 pounds UK. 493 Knuts is very close to 500 new pennies, so he can estimate that way. From gawain at ofir.dk Fri Dec 26 19:22:39 2003 From: gawain at ofir.dk (romerskesims) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 19:22:39 -0000 Subject: Twinkle, twinkle little star Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87603 I'm not sure if this topic has been covered yet, but I think this is a possible explanation of why Regulus is called Regulus: The brightest star is Sirius, but another very bright star is a triple star called Regulus in the constellation the Leo (at least I think that's what the constellation is called in English) Don't you think it is possible? From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Fri Dec 26 22:05:38 2003 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 22:05:38 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Question:_Katie_Bell=92s_age_and_the_next_quidditch_captain?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87604 Does anybody know canon for Katie Bell being two years older than Harry? The reason I ask is that I have assumed one of the interesting questions for Book 6 is whether Harry or Ron will be the Gryffindor quidditch captain (BTW my bet is on Ron). But reading OotP again I came across p. 575 (US addition), where Jinny says she wants to be a chaser. She mentions that Angelina and Alicia are both leaving next year, but she does *not* mention Katie. Now, if Katie is only a year older than Harry, she has the best chance to be the captain, as the oldest member in the team. The HP lexicon puts Katie in the same year with Angelina and Alicia, but I couldn't find on what canon this is based. It is true that she always hangs with them but this is not conclusive evidence. Maybe it is only female chaser comradeship. In addition, we know that Harry was the only first-year player for 100 years. This means that if the year of SS/PS was not Katie's first season in the team, then she must be two years older than Harry, but I could not find canon for this either (Lee Jordan says in SS/PS that Alicia was only a reserve last year, but Katie's past experience is not mentioned). Now I'm not saying I lose sleep at night thinking neither Harry nor Ron will be the captain in Book 6, but PLEEEEASE HELP ANYBODY!!!! Neri From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Dec 26 22:31:15 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 22:31:15 -0000 Subject: Speaking of money In-Reply-To: <009001c3cc35$6c845250$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87605 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > > K > > Oh come on, everyone here is totally missing the opportunity to confuse our > American cousins with the sort of slang that seventies cop shows would have > you believe is used by *every* criminal in the world (and used car dealers > but no one else, it was a sort of shorthand in the minds of writers for > convincing you that a certain character was dodgy) - monkey, pony etc etc. Geoff: But it is only really used in betting circles. You just don't hear everyday folk in the street using those terms. Comment for Catlady's benefit... A sovereign is used to describe a (real) gold pound coin. From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Dec 26 22:37:09 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 22:37:09 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 8, The Hearing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87606 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maneelyfh" wrote: Fran: > I dont have my book with me either but didn't Harry ask her is she > could see the dementors after the incident in the alley and she said > yes and told him to keep his wand out in case they came back? Geoff: Just checked my copy. No, she tells him twice to keep his wand out as a precaution but there is no mention at this point of her seeing the Dementors. From MadameSSnape at aol.com Fri Dec 26 22:46:38 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 17:46:38 EST Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20[HPforGrownups]=20Question:=20Katie=20Bell?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=99s=20age=20and=20the=20next=20quidditch=20captain?= Message-ID: <12d.37d9c9f5.2d1e144e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87607 In a message dated 12/26/2003 5:20:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, Neri (nkafkafi at yahoo.com) writes: >Does anybody know canon for Katie Bell being two years older than Harry? ********* Sherrie here: I don't have my books with me, but IIRC it's mentioned in PS/SS that Katie had been a reserve Chaser the year before. If Harry is the first firstie to be on the Qudditch team in a century, that means Katie must have been at least a second-year, the year before Harry arrived - in other words, two years Harry's senior. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From derek at rhinobunny.com Fri Dec 26 23:09:29 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 15:09:29 -0800 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[HPforGrownups]_Question:_Katie_Bell=92s_?= age and the next quidditch captain Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031226150551.0258d6d0@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87608 >Sherrie here: >I don't have my books with me, but IIRC it's mentioned in PS/SS that Katie >had been a reserve Chaser the year before. Derek: No, that was Alicia Spinnet. I just checked that section of PS/SS, and it doesn't refer to Katie's age or year. Like Neri, I also got it set in my mind somewhere that Katie was only one year ahead of the Trio (and therefore one year younger than Angelina and Alicia). But I can't find what I've read to give me that impression... - derek From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 26 23:44:20 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 23:44:20 -0000 Subject: Speaking of money In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87609 > > : > > > Iggy here: > > > > > > Can someone name the different levels of British currency and > > > how they relate to each other? (Using the pound as a base...) > Pip!Squeak: > > The most common slang is to add the -er to the notes; so oncer, > > fiver, tenner. > > > Geoff: > Except we have no one pound note now. Pip!Squeak: Well, that depends which 'we' in Britain we are talking about.[grin] There is no one pound note in England and Wales. The Royal Bank of Scotland still issues a one pound note. Scottish paper notes are strictly speaking not legal tender in either Scotland, England or Wales, but Scottish law regards them as 'money'. They do turn up in England, and are generally accepted (their value is exactly equivalent to the English pound). Harry would find a Scottish one pound note pretty unusual, but he might have seen them. However, since Hogsmeade is entirely wizarding, he probably won't have seen them while at Hogwarts. English currency is also generally accepted in Scotland - again, it's not actually legal tender there. Other than the one pound note, Scottish currency has the same notes and coins as English currency. However, the designs on the notes/coins tends to be a little different. I'm not sure if any Scottish currency would turn up in Wizarding Britain; Gringotts is based in Diagon Alley, England. But they might have a dual system for the use of Scottish wizards who need muggle money. Pip!Squeak From belijako at online.no Sat Dec 27 00:08:32 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 00:08:32 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Question:_Katie_Bell=92s_age_and_the_next_quidditch_captain?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87610 Neri wrote: I have assumed one of the interesting questions for Book 6 is whether Harry or Ron will be the Gryffindor quidditch captain (BTW my bet is on Ron). Berit replies: Ron has only played for a year, so I have my doubts he'll be chosen as Quidditch captain in book 6. He needs more experience. My guess is that Harry will be captain in book 6 and Ron will be captain in book 7. Berit From wendydarling6402 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 26 23:43:40 2003 From: wendydarling6402 at yahoo.com (Wendy) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 15:43:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Neville's family/Neville's Mother In-Reply-To: <1072428787.3177.21747.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20031226234340.14536.qmail@web41510.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87611 "In any case, they're definitely a wizarding family. Since Uncle Algie drops Neville out of a window to see if he'll bounce and buys him a toad, I'm pretty sure he's a wizard, and Neville's mother was obviously a witch or she wouldn't have been an auror (or in St. Mungo's now)." Carol Hi everyone my name is Wendy, this is my first post to the list. I had a question aobut Neville's Mom being a Auror. I always assumed that she was but I have been reading the books to my daughter and we have gotten to the fourth book and no one says that she is an Auror, they say that Frank Longbottom is an Auror but not his wife. "We have heard evidence against you. The four of you stand accused of capturing an Auror- Frank Longbottom- and subjecting him to the cruciasus curse, believing him to have knowledge of the present whereabouts of your exiled master. He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named--" skip a little " You are further accused," bellowed Mr. Crouch "of using the cruciasus curse on Frank Longbottom's wife, when he would not give you information. (pg. 595 GoF American version) "Yes, they were talking about Neville's parents," said Dumbledore. "His father, Frank was an Auror just like Professor Moody. He and his wife were tortured for information about Voldemort's whereabouts after he lost his powers, as you heard." (pg. 602 GoF American version) This is just something that I have been wondering about; wondering if I had missed something or if they do say later that she was an Auror Wendy Jacobs It is better to fail in originality than to succeed in imitation. - Herman Melville --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Get your photo on the big screen in Times Square [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From belijako at online.no Sat Dec 27 00:30:45 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 00:30:45 -0000 Subject: Neville's family/Neville's Mother In-Reply-To: <20031226234340.14536.qmail@web41510.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87612 Wendy wrote: I had a question aobut Neville's Mom being a Auror. I always assumed that she was but I have been reading the books to my daughter and we have gotten to the fourth book and no one says that she is an Auror, they say that Frank Longbottom is an Auror but not his wife. >snip< This is just something that I have been wondering about; wondering if I had missed something or if they do say later that she was an Auror Berit replies: The next HP book you'll be reading says so :-) Berit From catlady at wicca.net Sat Dec 27 00:52:15 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 00:52:15 -0000 Subject: Speaking of money In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87613 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" wrote: > I'm not sure if any Scottish currency would turn up in Wizarding > Britain; Gringotts is based in Diagon Alley, England. But they might > have a dual system for the use of Scottish wizards who need muggle > money. Surely Scottish Muggle money would be brought to Gringotts in Diagon Alley to be changed for wizarding money. Wizarding folk would Apparate or Floo to Diagon Alley from all over the island (and maybe from Ireland as well). I mean, we haven't heard of a Gringotts branch in Hogsmeade, which seems to be the other wizarding shopping district on the island of Britain. From srbeers at yahoo.com Sat Dec 27 00:51:00 2003 From: srbeers at yahoo.com (srbeers) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 00:51:00 -0000 Subject: Question: Katie Bells age and the next quidditch captain In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87614 > Neri wrote: > > I have assumed one of the interesting questions for Book 6 is whether > Harry or Ron will be the Gryffindor quidditch captain (BTW my bet is > on Ron). > > > Berit replies: > > Ron has only played for a year, so I have my doubts he'll be chosen > as Quidditch captain in book 6. He needs more experience. My guess is > that Harry will be captain in book 6 and Ron will be captain in book > 7. srbeers: speculation- First, I agree, with the recent book, Katie's year seem unclear. I have always thought all three girls were in the same year with Fred and George, but the inconsistencies you pointed out leave some doubt. I speculate that if Katie is there, she will be in here last year, and so I think she will turn the captainship over to Harry as that will allow him more time and experience in building his own team. By that I mean that Harry being head of the team for two years will allow him to build a better team than having the Captain change very year; Alica(?) one year, Katie the next, and Harry after that. Much better to have one good consistent captain over time. This allows him to structure and train the team to his/her best advantage. Now to my speculation, I suspect Katie, if there and the overal team if she is not, will elect Harry as captain. Initially, Harry will be honored, but Harry has a lot of irons in the fire, a lot of demands on him and his time, and already far more stress than he can handle. I also speculate that with Ron being far more knowledgable in Quidditch, having followed and participated in it his whole life, there will be conflict between Ron and Harry over how best to run and train the team. Eventually, after a period of conflict, Harry will realize that his own life is too full, and that Ron really does know what he is talking about, Harry will turn the captaincy over to Ron. I predict that their performance will be marginal during Harry's reign, but once Ron takes over and Harry stress level is reduced, the teams performance will improve greatly, and in the end, they will win the Quidditch Cup. That would mean what Ron saw in the Mirror of Erised had almost complete come true; Quidditch Player, Quidditch Cup Winner, Team Captain. The only think missing from his vision would be Ron as a Head Boy, and we won't see that until 7th year. Unfortunately, the more successful and the more fulfilled Ron is, the more likely I think he is to 'sleep with the fishes' before the end of the book. Like I said; all speculation. However, I did accurately and unwaveringly predict that Ron would be Keeper, so maybe I'm on the right track this time. srbeers From siskiou at msn.com Sat Dec 27 01:33:31 2003 From: siskiou at msn.com (Susanne) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 17:33:31 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question: Katie Bells age and the next quidditch captain In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <89231868770.20031226173331@msn.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87615 Hi, Friday, December 26, 2003, 4:51:00 PM, srbeers wrote: > Unfortunately, the more successful and the more fulfilled Ron is, the > more likely I think he is to 'sleep with the fishes' before the end > of > the book. Just wondering what the above means :) I'm from Germany, living in the US, and have never come across the term you used before. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at msn.com Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From siskiou at msn.com Sat Dec 27 01:36:28 2003 From: siskiou at msn.com (Susanne) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 17:36:28 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question: Katie Bells age and the next quidditch captain In-Reply-To: <89231868770.20031226173331@msn.com> References: <89231868770.20031226173331@msn.com> Message-ID: <173232045698.20031226173628@msn.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87616 Hi, Friday, December 26, 2003, 5:33:31 PM, Susanne wrote: >> Unfortunately, the more successful and the more fulfilled Ron >> is, the >> more likely I think he is to 'sleep with the fishes' before the end >> of >> the book. > Just wondering what the above means :) > I'm from Germany, living in the US, and have never come > across the term you used before. Sorry for the OT post! This was supposed to go privately, and I thought I stopped the post in time, but it came through anyhow. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at msn.com Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From catlady at wicca.net Sat Dec 27 01:46:26 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 01:46:26 -0000 Subject: Sleep with the Fishes In-Reply-To: <173232045698.20031226173628@msn.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87617 srbeers wrote: > Unfortunately, the more successful and the more fulfilled Ron > is, the more likely I think he is to 'sleep with the fishes' > before the end of the book. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne replied: > > Just wondering what the above means :) > > > > I'm from Germany, living in the US, and have never come > > across the term you used before. > > Sorry for the OT post! > This was supposed to go privately, and I thought I stopped > the post in time, but it came through anyhow. Just as well to ask and answer it on-line, in case other people have the same question. 'He's sleeping with the fishes' means 'he's dead'. It *specifically* refers to someone being murdered and the body being thrown into the nearby large body of water and the phrase was popularized by old gangster movies. From belijako at online.no Sat Dec 27 02:00:50 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 02:00:50 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 8, The Hearing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87618 Geoff wrote: > She did describe them. Bear in mind that she was rather intimidated > by the Wizengamot - 50 or so people sitting in a court and most of > them looking down their nose at you. > I don't think she made up the fact she could see them. She was > overawed - even felt humiliated. Berit replies: I agree with Geoff on this one. I belive Mrs Figg gave such a poor impression because she was nervous and felt very inferior in the presence of the Wizengamot; losing her head almost completely. This effect is seen in Muggle courtrooms all the time: Witnesses stuttering and stammering, saying things all wrong as if they're lying. But they aren't necessarily. One should never judge a witness' truthfulness by how well they control their emotions. Likewise some very articulate and confident witnesses are nothing but very good actors... Many juryes have been fooled by interpreting too much into body-language and looks. I believe there are evidence that Mrs Figg is speaking the truth when she claims squibs can see dementors, not just feel them: 1. When she comes running up to Harry after his Patronus has chased away the dementors, Mrs Figg speaks about them in plural on more than one occasion. How could she have known there were more than one of them if she couldn't see them but only feel their presence? Harry never told her there were two of them. 2. When Mrs Figg, Harry and Dudley starts to walk in the direction of Privet Drive, Mrs. Figg takes the lead and peers anxiously around the corner to see if the coast is clear. She asks Harry to keep his wand out in case the dementors are still lurking nearby. If squibs can't see dementors, why does Mrs Figgs act like she can spot them with her eyes? She obviously EXPECTS to be able to SEE them; just look at how Rowling writes it: Quote: "...peering anxiously around the corner... 'What's that at the end of the street? Oh, it's just Mr Prentice... don't put your wand away boy.'" (OoP p. 25 UK Edition) For a split second she thought what she was SEEING might be a dementor. 3. Already from the very start when Mrs Figg walks into the court room at the MoM it is very clear she is scared and nervous. She is described as "looking more scared and batty than ever", "perched nervously on the very edge of the seat", speaking in a "quavery voice". In contrast Fudge, who is interrogating her, is speaking in a bored and lofty voice. His demeanour gives poor Mrs Figg the very clear message of what he thinks about inferior, unimportant squibs like her. Not exactly giving her the confidence she needs, is he? Humiliating her even more, he actually doesn't address Mrs Figg directly when asking whether squibs can see dementors, but looks along the rows of the Wizengamot for an answer. He is talking ABOUT her over her head, as if she's a child or an animal; not TO her like an equal. It is at this point Mrs Figg answers indignantly: "Yes, we can!", forcing Fudge to relate directly to her again. 4. "Yes, we can!" said Mrs Figg indignantly (OoP p. 131 UK Ed). Now correct me if I'm wrong; English is not my first language. But to me, the use of the word "indignant" carries the meaning of something more than just being plain "angry" or "annoyed". That's why there are several words/synonyms for "angry", aren't there; to signify slight differences of meaning. To me, being "indignant" means something like being "righteously angry". Also the use of the exclamation mark stresses this point. If Mrs Figg was downright lying, she is doing it very convincingly :-) Just look at the scene: Scared, batty Mrs Figg can hardly string a sentence together, speaking in a quavery voice; but when fronted with the question whether squibs can see dementors she suddenly comes off very strongly, speaking in a very bold manner! Truly indignant at the lack of respect and the wizards' ignorance! 5. Both Harry and the readers can agree on the fact that Mrs Figg's explanation that follows is not very convincing. But again; there are more than one reason for witnesses to appear "less truthful". Yes, Mrs Figg might be lying, but she might also be speaking the truth. But because of her state of mind she gets it all wrong. It sounded like she had learned it all by heart, but to me that is exactly what a very nervous (and truthful) witness would have been doing before a court appearance. They would have gone over everything in their mind to be sure to remember correctly, but because of their nervousness the words don't come out like they were supposed to... 6. What might the consequences have been if Mrs Figg were indeed lying about being able to see dementors? There were plenty of bright and learned wizards and witches in the courtroom; any number of them could easily have arrested her for her lie. Instead we see that none of them protest or speak up when hearing Mrs Figg's indignated assertion. I refuse to believe not one of them would have read or heard somewhere if squibs could see dementors or not... But if they hadn't, it would have been easy to call forward another squib or two as a witness to confirm or refute Mrs Figg's statement. Harry's future was at stake, and I don't think Mrs Figg would have risked his downfall by a lie that could so easily have been found out. Also, the way Rowling describes the whole scene it is pretty much obvious Fudge's question was just another way of humiliating Mrs Figg. The way the Wizengamot accepts Mrs Figg's explanation so easily (no further questions to clarify) confirms this. These are my two knuts :-) I believe Mrs Figg! Berit From s_ings at yahoo.com Sat Dec 27 02:22:25 2003 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 02:22:25 -0000 Subject: Impending Convention Alley Proposal Deadlines Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87619 Just a reminder that the Convention Alley Call for Papers (CFP) set a postmark deadline for proposals submitted via regular mail of January 3, 2004. Proposals submitted electronically must be received by January 17, 2004. Proposals may take the form of a 500 word abstract or a completed conference paper (approximately 5-7 pages). Any attachments must be in Microsoft Word to be readable. Proposals should be sent via e-mail (preferred) or regular mail in advance of the submission deadline to the following: E-Mail submission: convention_alley @yahoo.ca (without the spaces). Please use "Ottawa 2004 Programming Submission" in the subject line. Regular mail: Convention Alley Box 36058 1318 Wellington Street Ottawa, ON K1Y 3A0 Canada For all of the details, please see the full text of the CFP on the Convention Alley LiveJournal (http://www.livejournal.com/community/conventionalley/) or in the files section of the HPFGU-Convention list (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Convention/). From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Sat Dec 27 03:48:45 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 03:48:45 -0000 Subject: Another question for somebody in England (cost of stamps) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87620 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, abbet659 at h... wrote: How much is a stamp, is it the same size as a US stamp? Just wondering how much it would cost to cover an envelope with stamps. Seems to me that would cost quite a bit of money for a poor Wizard family, so maybe they made their own stamps. If they can make stamps, couldn't they make muggle money, have somebody launder the money, then take the real money to Gringotts and exchange it for wizard money? Abbet Belated reply to this, now that I have been allowed out of the kitchen. First off, the previous prices advised (by Geoff I think) were a bit out of date: the standard first class stamp is now 28 pence and the second class is indeed 20 pence. The episode of the Weasley's letter being covered in stamps made me laugh long and loud when I read it because it echoed a true life incident I remembered. I was working in a very small office at the time and was left in sole charge one day. I had to get an important package sent out - only problem acute shortage of stamps and no cash to buy them with. So I ended up using every stamp in the office, some of which were very low in value (one or two pence stamps). This meant that the package I sent was covered literally in stamps of all values. The Weasley letter must have looked just like this one. This episode in the books just must have been modelled on a real life incident, I think. June Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; I too have mailed a letter like this. I can remember when I was a kid,(late 70's) my mother sent me in the post office to mail a letter, but it did not have a stamp. She gave me the money to buy a stamp, but to my surprise, when I went to the machine, there was a whole bunch of 1 cent stamps on top. I put the money back in my pocket, put the 22, 1 cent stamps on the front (and back), and mailed it. I thought my mom would be happy about how I saved her some money, instead, she was mad because she said it would look "cheap" done that way. Me, I just wanted the letter to get there, which it did. So, I did not see a problem. Fred From mommystery at hotmail.com Sat Dec 27 02:01:16 2003 From: mommystery at hotmail.com (mommystery2003) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 02:01:16 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87621 I think we will see Harry in NEWT Potions, as well as Ron, Hermione and Neville - probably Draco too, so the interaction between all of them can continue. One of the difficulties of the books is that we are only seeing things through Harry's perspective..we know he is blaming (wrongly) Snape for Black's death, but we are not seeing Snape's reaction on being told Black died...I'm sure Snape is affected by it somehow, even if it's the loss of an adversary and I for one will miss the little insulting conversations between the two - they certainly made for some humorous reading! Getting back to Harry though, he learned in the first book that Snape was the one protecting him from falling off the broom, but never even thought to go thank him for it - instead, he continues to see Snape as the evil person he's told he is...also, in one respect Harry is spoiled and cosseted - he continually breaks the rules, yet is rewarded at the end for doing so - is it any wonder Snape sees some of James in Harry? What punishment did Black receive for the prank he played on Snape? What punishment did James receive for hanging Snape upside down? None it seems... From AllieS426 at aol.com Sat Dec 27 04:56:53 2003 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 04:56:53 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Hermione's owl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87623 I *just* read that last week and was wondering the same thing myself. I chalked it up to a FLINT. Or Dumbeldore didn't realize that Hermione never sent the owl, and he figured it out later. Allie --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan Miller" wrote: > In the last chapter of SS, Harry wakes and sees Dumbledore standing > over him. At one point, Harry asks, "You got there? You got > Hermione's owl?" Dumbledore says "We must have crossed in midair." > (SS, US edition, page 296-7) > > But then a few pages later (page 302), Harry is discussing things > with Hermione and Ron. Harry asks "So, what happened to you two?" But > then Hermione says an odd thing. "Well, I got back all right. I > brought Ron round - that took a while - and we were dashing up to the > owlery to contact Dumbledore when we met him in the entrance hall - > he already knew ...." > > My question - why would Dumbledore say he must have crossed > Hermione's owl if he met her while she was still on her way to the > owlery and couldn't have sent it yet? I suppose it is possible that > Dumbledore didn't know that Hermione was on her way to sending it and > that she might have sent it earlier, but then wouldn't he have said > something like "I saw her earlier. I understood what it was all > about." > > And it doesn't make sense that he would honestly think that an owl > with a message for him would miss him. The owl would have been > looking for HIM and he would expect it to pursue him until the > message was delivered. The whole thing seems strange to me. Either he > knew Hermione hadn't yet sent the owl and would have remarked about > it, or he thought she did send the owl and would have expected it to > have found him sometime over the last three days that Harry was in > the hospital. Then he might have remarked something like "Gee, I > wonder where it has got to?" > > CV From tim at marvinhold.com Sat Dec 27 02:05:46 2003 From: tim at marvinhold.com (Tim) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 02:05:46 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Mirror In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87624 Athena ("linda_mccabe" ): > I felt like it was there to be done to yank > tears from the reader, but as for me - it made me livid. I thought > it was a terrible prop that did not fulfill its purpose. That's > because I don't think it works with the characterization of Sirius > Black. > > First off, if Sirius had such a magical device he wouldn't have > given it to Harry in the manner in which he did. He knew that the > owl post and the Floo network was being monitored at Hogwarts. > There was no other way that the two of them could safely > communicate. If the two way mirror worked the way that Sirius said > it did, then he would have given it to Harry and said, "Ten o'clock > tonight, find a safe secluded place and call out my name. We'll > talk everynight and I'll even see if I can't help you a bit with > your homework." > > Later when Harry went through the trouble of contacting Sirius by > Umbridge's fire, he should have said, "Harry, why didn't you just > use the mirror I gave you? I mean, I think risks are fun and all, > but I did give you something so you could talk with me." > > I just thought it was a terrible, terrible prop that I don't think > will come to bear later on like the gift knife from Sirius did. Tim speaks: Linda, you have hit the nails on the head. It is totally out of character for Sirius not to ensure/encourage Harry to use the mirror. If its only purpose is to heighten Harry's pain, then this is a disservice to the reader and to the character of Sirius. I mean really, never using the mirrors or finding a way to get Harry to use his is a big gaping hole in Sirius' character. I usually wave off JKR's inconsistancies due to the fact she is writing a work for children. I do not hold her to the same standard I do to Tolkien. This does not lessen my enjoyment of the books, but I do have to lower my expectations a bit. Still it is possible that there will be a later justification for introducing the mirrors. Tim From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Sat Dec 27 04:37:59 2003 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 04:37:59 -0000 Subject: What about the teachers? Don't they have a personal life? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87625 Lisandra Stenth wrote: > My question is: Do the teachers in Hogwarts lack a personal life? As written > in Order of the Phoenix, Professor Trelawney was intented to be kicked out > of Hogwarts by Umbridge. So, she used to live there. Like all the other > teachers. In this case they couldn't have had a personal life, a family or > anything a normal human-being (either muggle or witch) usually has. In an interview with South West News, JKR said: "Q: Where do the Hogwarts teachers live during the school holidays ? Do they stay at Hogwarts ? (Andrew Zimmer) A: No, they don't. Filch, the caretaker, stays." Also, JKR has said that some of the teachers/staff are married, but that information is restricted for a reason. I do not remember where I read this. If anyone knows, please say so. A link would be appreciated too. ;) So yes, the teachers do have personal lives and some at least are married. The teachers do "live" at Hogwarts during the school year, however everyone, including Trelawney, leaves during the holidays, except for Filch. I also assumed that on at least some weekends they hiked down to Hogsmeade, then apparated or used the floo network to "go home". However, I admit that that doesn't give the teachers a lot of time to spend with their spouses and families. The only teacher stated as "living" at Hogwarts is Trelawney. I also assume that Filch "lives" at Hogwarts and I wouldn't surprised if Hagrid lived there as well. The rest I assume have houses or stay with family or maybe rent something during the holidays. As far as the teachers having personal lives, when they go down to Hogsmeade, Madam Rosmerta only asks Fudge what he's doing there. She doesn't seem surprised to see Hogswart's staff there, so they do get down to Hogsmeade sometimes. Yolanda From AllieS426 at aol.com Sat Dec 27 05:32:23 2003 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 05:32:23 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 8, The Hearing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87626 I've been following this thread, and I don't have a strong feeling one way or the other (sorry, I'll pay particular attention on the next re-read :) ) - but for the believers, any ideas why a squib *would* be able to see Dementors? There's nothing at all magical about them, as far as we know; they're basically Muggles born into a wizarding family. If Muggles can't see them, why would Squibs? Allie --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" wrote: > > These are my two knuts :-) I believe Mrs Figg! > > Berit From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Sat Dec 27 05:10:41 2003 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 05:10:41 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87627 mommystery2003 wrote: > Getting back to Harry though, he learned in the first book that Snape > was the one protecting him from falling off the broom, but never even > thought to go thank him for it - instead, he continues to see Snape > as the evil person he's told he is...also, in one respect Harry is > spoiled and cosseted - he continually breaks the rules, yet is > rewarded at the end for doing so - is it any wonder Snape sees some > of James in Harry? What punishment did Black receive for the prank > he played on Snape? What punishment did James receive for hanging > Snape upside down? None it seems... True Harry hasn't tried to thank Snape, but quite frankly I don't know how well it would go. Snape is a very unpleasant person and I think that Harry avoids saying anymore words than necessary to him. I don't see Harry as treating Snape as evil as much as treating him like the bitter, snarky so and so that he is. We haven't been told that Sirius and James got off without any punishment. In fact, wasn't it mentioned in OOtP that Lupin got the prefect badge, beacause James spent too much time in detention with Sirius. I don't think that McGonagall for instance would allow Sirius and James to run wild. I believe that they were punished, but simply undeterred, much like the Weasley twins. Harry does break the rules and he does get punished for it. The only exceptions to this are at the ends of the book when Harry is fighting some form of evil or another and when he catches the remembrall. As far as the remembrall incident, McGonagall did give him a break that time, but she really wanted a good seeker and besides she knew about the Dursleys. I think she wanted to give Harry a chance to do something that he was obviously good at to try to help counter some of the damage the Dursleys did to him. Remember, the Sorting Hat said that Harry had a "thirst to prove himself". Harry could have tried to "prove himself" the wrong way. I think McGonagall may have wanted Harry to have a positive outlet for some of that energy. McGonagall does seem fond of Harry, but that doesn't stop her from taking 50 points off of him in PS/SS. I don't think she was any more lenient with James. Yolanda From srbeers at yahoo.com Sat Dec 27 05:22:04 2003 From: srbeers at yahoo.com (srbeers) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 05:22:04 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87628 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mommystery2003" wrote: > I think we will see Harry in NEWT Potions, ... so the interaction > between all of them can continue. > srbeers: I'm inclined to agree, I think the dynamic of Snape's potions classes and more specifically, the Occlumency classes in OoP, have been a set up for a big show down between Harry and Snape; perhaps, even including a challenge to duel. I also think that the next book would be the perfect time for the 'war' between Harry and Snape to come to a head. Regarding Potions Class, I am of the belief that Snape will take over Defense Against Dark Art, and a new Potions teacher with more relaxed standards will take over. This allows the dynamic between Harry/Snape/Draco/Ron/Hermione to continue, but shift the emphasis away from Potions. To expand on this, I think the DA Club will continue as an officially recognised school club; a club with Snape as the faculty advisor and a club open to the whole school. That allows the battle between Slytherin and Gryffindor to continue. > mommystery continues: > > ...edited... > > ... in one respect Harry is spoiled and cosseted - he continually > breaks the rules, yet is rewarded at the end for doing so - is it any > wonder Snape sees some of James in Harry? srbeers: Harry is nothing like James, he doesn't attack people, he doesn't create trouble or go looking for it. A vast majority of time, Harry's aggressive actions are provoked and are more defensive than offensive. James, as a school boy, is more likely to be the attacker; Harry is more likely to be the attacked. Harry also has a strong conscience, and a good sense of right and wrong. When Harry lies, the narrative specifically says he lies, even when it would be obvious without the narrative specifying it. Harry frequently reflects a guilty conscience and regret in narrative. When Harry does break the rules, as in when he punched Draco, he was provoked; few people can contain their anger in the face of a direct and malicious insult to their dead mother. Harry's other rule breaking, in the for of mischief, are no better or worse than any other student. Harry's not perfect, he makes mistakes, he makes a little mischief, he's a kid; that's what kids do. In the cases where serious rules are broken, Harry is invariably acting for the greater good. Rules are not absolute, the are the opinions of the people making the rules, and like all opinions they are subject to change with the changes is social attitudes. But moral right is far more stable and universal. In PS/SS and more so in CoS, Harry goes against school rules because the safe and easy path of following them has horrendous disastrous consequences. When Harry resques Ginny from the Chamber of Secrets, he doesn't come out of it expecting to be a hero, or expecting praise of a medal; he comes out of it expecting to be expelled at least. Yet he weighs rule along side the life of a friend, and the life of a friend is far more important, much more worth preserving that school rules. Let's take Percy as an example, after the current book, everyone is convinced that Percy is 'ever so evil'. Yet Percy does what is right; he follows the rules, he stands by his appointed leaders and supports his elected government. He accepts the assurance of the wise and knowledgable leaders of his world that a trouble making kid and an eccentric old wizard are far less reliable that they, the leaders, are. Based on the rules, Percy's actions are perfectly correct, but based on what is right, we all know he was wrong. Rules do not define moral right and wrong, they are merely an agreed upon standard for an orderly world. > mommystery continues: > > What punishment did Black receive for the prank he played on Snape? > What punishment did James receive for hanging Snape upside down? > None it seems... srbeers: We don't see any direct punishment, but then we are given scant information about those incidences, so we really don't have enough information to make a judgement on. Given the extreme of 'the Prank', I suspect there was significant punishment, but as I said, we have too little information to make an absolute statement. Regarding, James hanging Snape upside down, I must ask how many incidences of bullying in common everyday schools get punished relative to the number of bullying incidences that occur? Very few I would think, in fact, I would go so far as to say that, +99% of most incidences of bullying go unknown and unnoticed by the staff, and therefore, unpunished. The code of the playground says that kids don't rat even on the bad guy, and they endure and hopefully resolve these conflicts on their own. Sadly, in the modern world, excess bullying is too frequently resolved by gun fire, but that's another topic all together. Just a thought. srbeers From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Dec 27 07:48:18 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 07:48:18 -0000 Subject: Speaking of money In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87629 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" wrote: > > > Geoff: > > Except we have no one pound note now. Pip!Squeak: > > Well, that depends which 'we' in Britain we are talking about.[grin] > > There is no one pound note in England and Wales. The Royal Bank of > Scotland still issues a one pound note. > > Scottish paper notes are strictly speaking not legal tender in > either Scotland, England or Wales, but Scottish law regards them > as 'money'. They do turn up in England, and are generally accepted > (their value is exactly equivalent to the English pound). > Geoff: I had been intending to ask you which part of the UK you were in because of your reference to "oncer", a usage I've never come across. actually, I hadn't forgotten the Scottish notes; they are fairly rare in England and Wales although I have used them when coming back from visits north of Hadrian's Wall. Aren't one pound notes still issued by the Bank of Scotland as well? I woudl agree, they ought not to bother any Hogwarts student familiar with Muggle money since the school is in that part of the UK. From belijako at online.no Sat Dec 27 10:47:45 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 10:47:45 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 8, The Hearing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87630 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "allies426" wrote: > I've been following this thread, and I don't have a strong feeling > one way or the other (sorry, I'll pay particular attention on the > next re-read :) ) - but for the believers, any ideas why a squib > *would* be able to see Dementors? There's nothing at all magical > about them, as far as we know; they're basically Muggles born into a > wizarding family. If Muggles can't see them, why would Squibs? > > Allie > Berit replies: Good point :-) I don't know. One explanation could be that squibs know there exists a magical world and therefore have more "practise" in seeing things Muggles don't. Like some Muggles claim to be able to see ghosts while most don't... Maybe all squibs share this "extra sense" with wizards. I'm just basing my assumption on canon evidence. And there's no doubt Mrs Figg acts like she can be able to spot dementors with her eyes, not just her feelings. Also the way she's genuinely indignant when it's hinted squibs can't see dementors suggests she speaks the truth. Berit From derek at rhinobunny.com Sat Dec 27 12:03:15 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 04:03:15 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031227034329.0287b390@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87631 yolandacarroll wrote: >True Harry hasn't tried to thank Snape, but quite >frankly I don't know how well it would go. Derek: I'm inclined to think it would go much better than might be expected. If Harry were to approach Snape and tell him (sincerely) that he's grateful for Snape's aid, that he was totally in the wrong to look at Snape's memory in the Pensieve, that he feels terrible about having done so, and that he thinks the way his father and godfather treated Snape as youths was dreadful and something Harry would never do to anyone, then I think it might have a definite impact on Snape. It's easy to excuse the actions of James and Sirius because they were young, but the trouble is, they (or at least Sirius) don't seem to have ever outgrown it. Do you think Sirius ever apologized to Severus for bullying him in school? Hardly likely. He still calls him "Snivellus"... a grown man sitting there engaging in schoolyard name- calling. If Snape mistreats Harry because he sees too much of James in him, I can't think of anything Harry could do to change that impression more than to to willingly approach Snape, thank him for his help, apologize for his own actions, and express regret at his father's actions. It would be something that Snape would never expect from the son of James Potter, and it might be the catalyst that finally gets Snape to stop thinking of Harry solely in that light. srbeers: >To expand on this, I think the DA Club will continue as an officially >recognised school club; a club with Snape as the faculty advisor and a >club open to the whole school. Derek: I was just thinking about this yesterday. I agree it will continue. And I think it would be a perfect opportunity for Harry to mend fences with Snape and improve their relationship. If Harry went to Snape and *asked* him to be faculty advisor (as opposed to Dumbledore assigning Snape the job), I think that would show Snape that Harry has some respect for him. I suspect that's one of the things that bothers Snape the most about Harry -- that Harry shows him no respect. (Whether he's really *earned* any respect is a different question... ;-) Yes, it's unfair for Harry to have to be the grown-up in the relationship. But clearly, if fences are to be mended here, it's Harry that will have to do the mending. Snape is not mature enough to swallow his pride. Is Harry? - Derek From patnkatng at cox.net Sat Dec 27 14:54:44 2003 From: patnkatng at cox.net (Katrina) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 14:54:44 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Question:_Katie_Bell=92s__age_and_the_next_quidditch_captain?= In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031226150551.0258d6d0@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87632 FWIW, the lexicon places Katie in the same year as Alicia, but it doesn't give a reason that I could find. -Katrina --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Derek Hiemforth wrote: > > Derek: > No, that was Alicia Spinnet. I just checked that section of PS/SS, and > it doesn't refer to Katie's age or year. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 27 17:24:01 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 17:24:01 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031227034329.0287b390@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87633 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Derek Hiemforth wrote: > Yes, it's unfair for Harry to have to be the grown-up in the relationship. > But clearly, if fences are to be mended here, it's Harry that will have > to do the mending. Snape is not mature enough to swallow his pride. Is > Harry? > > - Derek I think I will scream at the book if Rowling makes Harry approach Snape first without dear Severus doing something similar. :o) It is UNFAIR indeed for Harry to be the grown-up in the relationship and I am still hoping that sometimes in the books Snape will remember two things: how old he is and that Harry is not his father. I can't wait for the big showdown between Harry and Snape and I am sure that it will happen, but I want it to happen on Harry's terms, not Snape's. See, to me Harry always be the wronged one and innocent one in their relationship and whatever mistakes he made are nothing in comparison to emotional abuse Snape put him through and continues put him through. Alla From rredordead at aol.com Sat Dec 27 17:26:01 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 17:26:01 -0000 Subject: Neville's family In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87634 > > Meri wrote: > I was just rereading my copy of SS and I came across this line in the Sorting Hat chapeter, page 125, American edition where all the new Gryffindors are talking about their families. "Well, my gran > brought me up, and she's a witch," said Neville, "but the family thought I was all Muggle for ages." Neville then goes on to describe the Blackpool Pier incident and how he almost drowned. My question is this: why would the Longbottoms think that Neville was all Muggle? Was his mother from a Muggle family? Or are the Longbottoms not all wizards and witches as I thought? > Carol wrote: > The line *is* confusing. maybe JKR hadn't invented the term "squib" > yet when she wrote PS/SS. In any case, they're definitely a wizarding > family. Since Uncle Algie drops Neville out of a window to see if > he'll bounce and buys him a toad, I'm pretty sure he's a wizard, and > Neville's mother was obviously a witch or she wouldn't have been an > auror (or in St. Mungo's now). But the clincher for me is Dumbledore's reference to Neville as a "pureblood" in OoP (842 Am. ed.). I can't see Dumbledore being mistaken on such an important point. It was the Muggle blood on Harry's mother's side that caused Voldemort to go after him rather than Neville. Mandy here: The only thought that just popped into my head was perhaps Neville was adopted? Perhaps his parents did not want to bring a magical child into the freighting WW at that time and adopted a muggle baby. However unbeknownst to Frank and Alice, Dumbledore switched babies substituting a magical one in its place to fulfill his grand master plan. The Grandparents knew this and worked to bring out his magical ability. Perhaps his pure blood status comes from another family? Far fetched, I know, and needs a lot more thinking about. I'm most likely completely wrong. But when I read that passage again it really was the first thing that came to mind. Mandy From rredordead at aol.com Sat Dec 27 17:31:23 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 17:31:23 -0000 Subject: Neville's family In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87635 > Mandy here: > The only thought that just popped into my head was perhaps Neville > was adopted? Perhaps his parents did not want to bring a magical > child into the freighting WW at that time and adopted a muggle baby. > However unbeknownst to Frank and Alice, Dumbledore switched babies > substituting a magical one in its place to fulfill his grand master > plan. The Grandparents knew this and worked to bring out his magical > ability. Perhaps his pure blood status comes from another family? > > Far fetched, I know, and needs a lot more thinking about. I'm most > likely completely wrong. But when I read that passage again it > really was the first thing that came to mind. Mandy again: I'm replying to my own post here. ;-) If Neville though of himself as 'Muggle for ages' it implies he would have known if he was adopted, if he truly was, and I don't remember him ever alluding to that in any of the 5 books. From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Sat Dec 27 18:11:21 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 13:11:21 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) References: Message-ID: <000d01c3cca4$d5575880$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> No: HPFGUIDX 87636 Alla said: See, to me Harry always be the wronged one and innocent one in their relationship and whatever mistakes he made are nothing in comparison to emotional abuse Snape put him through and continues put him through. Joj: I so agree with you. I simply can't believe the way some list members (not bashing, just astounded by some of the things I read here) make excuses for Snape and sugarcoat his abuse of Harry, Neville and others. He is a very complex and interesting character, but he is no hero. Not to say he isn't against Voldemort, or hasn't done good, but he's abusive to his students! There is absolutly no excuse for his treatment of Harry since the second he met him. None! Harry was certainly wrong to go in Snapes pensive, no question about it. I hardly think, however, that Harry's offense is worse than anything Snape has done to him. Snape is the worst kind of bully. He dosen't bully adults or equals of any kind. He bullies children who has he has certain control of because of his job. That's a coward in my book. Nothing he has done for the Order or against Voldemort makes his bullying ok. I hope Harry does apologize to Snape. It will give us just one more example of how much better of a person Harry is than Snape. Joj, who enjoys the character of Snape, but sees his faults for what they are. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca Sat Dec 27 10:59:06 2003 From: strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca (strawberryshaunie) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 10:59:06 -0000 Subject: Chapter discussions: chapter 8 The Hearing (squibs) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87637 AllieS426 wrote: > I've been following this thread, and > I don't have a strong feeling one way > or the other (sorry, I'll pay particular > attention on the next re-read :) ) - but > for the believers, any ideas why a squib > *would* be able to see Dementors? There's > nothing at all magical about them, as far > as we know; they're basically Muggles born > into a wizarding family. If Muggles can't > see them, why would Squibs? I remember someone saying (I'm pretty sure it was Hermione, quoting Hogwarts, a History yet again) that muggles can't see the hogwarts castle for what it really is either (they see an old ruin, with a sign saying :danger, do not enter...or something to that effect). We know that Filch *can* see it, and he's a squib....thus: squibs can see magical things, even if muggles can't. From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Sat Dec 27 12:58:28 2003 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne Dragon) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 06:58:28 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 8, The Hearing References: Message-ID: <000b01c3cc79$1f4c2960$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 87638 Berit replies: Good point :-) I don't know. One explanation could be that squibs know there exists a magical world and therefore have more "practise" in seeing things Muggles don't. Like some Muggles claim to be able to see ghosts while most don't... Maybe all squibs share this "extra sense" with wizards. I'm just basing my assumption on canon evidence. And there's no doubt Mrs Figg acts like she can be able to spot dementors with her eyes, not just her feelings. Also the way she's genuinely indignant when it's hinted squibs can't see dementors suggests she speaks the truth {Anne Replies} I agree with the possibility that with a squib that although they cannot actively *use* magic--it's still in thier blood, and affects them somewhat. The ability to 'see' magical and supernatural things may be a side benefit of having wizards blood and just because you can 'see' it, doesn't necassarily mean you can 'touch' (Or utilize) what you see--much like Filch. And since Muggles (or most Muggles at least) "Haven't a drop of magical blood in thier bodies", that lack would keep *them* from seeing things like Dementors. As for the Muggles that *CAN* see...well, genetic diversty would argue that some wizard blood got loose in the Muggle genepool somewhere--which might explain them. After all, all it really takes is some wizarding ancestor to get lost in the Muggle genepool to let that particalur code loose on the general population. Probably also explains why you get (pardon the word, but I don't remember JK's 'properly polite term at the moment and I just woke up to boot), 'Mudbloods' popping up all over the place--forgotten wizarding inheritance through the genes exherting itself. Perhaps in the case of Squibs it's that they are unable to conciously access what magic they posses. After all, I don't think any of us can deny that Filch (An acknowledged Squib) and Mrs. Norris have some sort of "magic' link to each other, whether or not JK has explained what it is just yet. And remember that even as a Squib, he was trying to take a correspondance course for learning magic--a clue that perhaps Squibs are not as magically out of it as they could be. There seems to be a chance if Filch is 'wasting time' trying to learn alternative methods to traditonal spell-casting, then it could be a matter of finding the 'right' method to access it. After all, I'm sure wand waving, although the *standard* way of casting, will not work for everyone. And if there's no one to teach you another way.... And I'm sure that Mrs. Figg likely has a few, 'natural' side talents that don't necessitate wand-waving per se. (Compare the smell of cabbages in her house to the smell of rotten eggs and old cabbages that the Diagon Alley Apothocary share in the first book) Perhaps some low level potions require minimal magical interference. Snape did, after all, indicate that "There will be no silly wand waving in *this* class"--which I always took to mean that the catalysts in potions was more often the ingredients themselves interacting with each other and less with any interfernce on the part of the witch or wizard mixing them. Anyhow, just my two short cents...Hope everyone had a good Holiday...;) Anne From spang_b at yahoo.co.in Sat Dec 27 16:38:15 2003 From: spang_b at yahoo.co.in (spang_b) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 16:38:15 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 8, The Hearing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87639 AllieS426 wrote: > ...any ideas why a squib *would* be able > to see Dementors? There's nothing at all > magical about them, as far as we know; > they're basically Muggles born into a > wizarding family. If Muggles can't see them, > why would Squibs? I think squibs belong to magical community. For some reason, they lack the ability to practise charms and do spell work. They get other benefits like seeing magical creatures including dementors. And Kwikspell seems to imply that there are some magical alternatives for spells. spangb From lovefromhermione at yahoo.com Sat Dec 27 18:44:49 2003 From: lovefromhermione at yahoo.com (lovefromhermione at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 10:44:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Question: Katie Bell?s age and the next quidditch captain In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031226150551.0258d6d0@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: <20031227184449.85700.qmail@web40202.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87640 Derek: "Like Neri, I also got it set in my mind somewhere that Katie was only one year ahead of the Trio (and therefore one year younger than Angelina and Alicia). But I can't find what I've read to give me that impression..." ("Seen and Unforseen" US p. 575) "Ginny, I've got a lifelong ban." "You're banned as long as Umbridge is in the school," Ginny corrected him. "There's a difference. Anyway, once you're back, I think I'll try out for Chaser. Angelina and Alicia are both leaving next year and I prefer goal-scoring to Seeking anyway." From angela_glor at yahoo.com Sat Dec 27 18:47:14 2003 From: angela_glor at yahoo.com (angela_glor) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 18:47:14 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 8, The Hearing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87641 Berit wrote: > Good point :-) I don't know. One explanation could be that squibs > know there exists a magical world and therefore have > more "practise" in seeing things Muggles don't. Like some Muggles > claim to be able to see ghosts while most don't... Maybe all squibs > share this "extra sense" with wizards. I think it could be that the ability of squibs to recognize dementors comes from a heightened innate ability. It's kind of like how the senses of blind people are more keenly developed than those of their sighted counterparts. So Mrs. Figg can't "see" dementors, any more than blind people can "see" a piano keyboard. But blind people surely can play the piano by compensating with their other senses (the sense of touch, I imagine). And Mrs. Figg can "see" dementors in the same way. Angela From derek at rhinobunny.com Sat Dec 27 20:42:26 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 12:42:26 -0800 Subject: Snape and Harry (was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry in NEWT Potions Class?) In-Reply-To: <000d01c3cca4$d5575880$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031227122127.01f99ac0@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87642 >Alla said: >See, to me Harry always be the wronged one and innocent one in their >relationship and whatever mistakes he made are nothing in comparison >to emotional abuse Snape put him through and continues put him >through. >mom31 wrote: >Joj: I so agree with you. I simply can't believe the way some list members (not bashing, just astounded by some of the things I read here) make excuses for Snape and sugarcoat his abuse of Harry, Neville and others. Derek: Just to be clear, I'm in no way trying to excuse Snape. He is absolutely in the wrong in every way he's ever treated Harry. The only thing Harry's ever done to remotely deserve Snape's ire was the Pensieve incident, which pales in comparison to the way Snape has treated him. mom31: >I hope Harry does apologize to Snape. It will give us just one more example of how much better of a person Harry is than Snape. Derek: Yes, this is exactly what I was trying to get at. Everyone in their life has to deal at one time or another with someone they rightfully dislike... an unfair boss, relative, co-worker, etc. Sometimes, this results in constant conflict that helps nothing. But other times, one person (the more mature one) figures out a way they can approach the relationship that will make it useful despite their personality clash. That's where I see Snape and Harry. Snape has treated his students inexcusably, and has generally been a dirtbag to Harry, no matter how much he's also worked to aid Harry behind the scenes. If Harry were to choose to try and "mend" his relationship with Snape, it's not because Harry feels he's the one who damaged it. It would be because Harry (the more mature one) would realize that (A) he has to deal with Snape one way or another, (B) that being so, he might as well try to see if he can make those dealings as conflict-free as possible, and (C) despite Snape's flaws, he has knowledge, skills, and position that would be useful to Harry. So when I talk about one of them "swallowing their pride" for the sake of mending fences, and speculate that it would have to be Harry that does so, I'm not at all trying to say that Harry's in the wrong. Quite the contrary. I'm saying that Snape is petty, and will never take the high road, and that it might be useful and tactically wise for Harry to have a better relationship with Snape, therefore if this is going to happen, it would have to be Harry who was the bigger man (or the cunning one, depending on how you look at it) and made it happen. I'm saying that Snape's a big weenie who will never make any move to better his relationship with Harry, so if the relationship will ever improve, it will be Harry stuck with improving it. :-) - Derek From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 28 05:07:12 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 21:07:12 -0800 Subject: Snape and Harry (was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry in NEWT Potions Class?) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20031227122127.01f99ac0@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: <000e01c3cd00$74a48920$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87643 Derek > I'm saying that Snape's a big weenie who will never make any move to > better his relationship with Harry, so if the relationship will ever > improve, it will be Harry stuck with improving it. :-) > K Of course the problem with that idea is that the reason Snape's never going to make a move to improve his relationship with Harry is he's perfectly happy with the way the relationship is - a hate/hate relationship is fine by him. As far as Snape's concerned Harry's an annoying, arrogant, spoilt brat who he has to teach twice a week and who occasionally his boss forces him to work with as some kind of torture. No doubt he also feels that he was doing Harry a big favour by giving up his time to teach him occulomancy and Harry decided to waste that time by not trying and then decided to invade his privacy for no readily apparent reason. So I can't really see him accepting an apology particularly gracefully. He doesn't want to make things better between him and Harry - he wants to never have to spend any more time with Harry ever again! K From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Sat Dec 27 21:12:24 2003 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 21:12:24 -0000 Subject: Twinkle, twinkle little star In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87644 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "romerskesims" wrote: > I'm not sure if this topic has been covered yet, but I think this is > a possible explanation of why Regulus is called Regulus: > > The brightest star is Sirius, but another very bright star is a > triple star called Regulus in the constellation the Leo (at least I > think that's what the constellation is called in English) > > Don't you think it is possible? Hi, Yes, the topic has been covered yet, the Black Brothers are named after constellations. I think that messages #85349 and #85478 (great posts from canis Majorette)will help you. "Regulus" is also an alchemical term, but I have to confess that at the moment, I don't know whether it can be relevant. Amicalement, Iris From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Sat Dec 27 21:38:41 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 21:38:41 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Lars is bright tonight (part 1 of 2) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87645 This is the first of a two-parter that describes my Quirrell theory. Because a large part of the theory is, well, pretty theoretical, it seemed that it would be best presented in the fictionalized format that TBAY defines. However, I realize that many do not like the TBAY format. For this reason, I will be following these two TBAY posts with another in standard essay format that gives the same information and will, hopefully, encourage participation by listees who are not comfortable in the waters of the Bay. The title of all the posts "Lars is bright tonight" is intended to describe how important Scandinavia will become in this version of the Potterverse. (Standard disclaimer, this is my first TBAY effort, yadda, yadda ... ) So, grab your snorkle, and let's follow the fish into the Bay ..... <"((>< <"((>< <"((>< <"((>< <"((>< <"((>< <"((>< Mid-morning being about the right time to start the day, George walks through the front door of George's Tavern, which is always kept unlocked, to begin today's business. To his surprise, the room is not empty. In a large corner table, surrounded by books, scrolls and pamphlets, is a witch in a gold robe wearing a green hat. She is in deep concentration over something on the table. George approaches. "Hello, I don't believe I've seen you in here before." The witch looks up. "No, I haven't visited before. I'm Constance Vigilance, and I dropped by to visit some friends over on the Big Bang Destroyer. But it seems to be adrift and I found this floating nearby." She points to the Big Paddle which is leaning against the wall. George's eyes widen. "Anyway, I went looking in the Rec Room and found this puzzle. I brought it over here where the light is better. I hope you don't mind. I made some coffee - help yourself. Oh, and don't mind my little friend here," she says, pointing to the spider dangling off her hat, "This is just my sister, Hyper Vigilance, transfigured. She won't hurt you, but she keeps me in line with all my canon references." Ever the proper host and proprietor, but eyeing the black spider, George takes the Big Paddle and asks, "Can I get you some food?" "Oh, yes, please! I'd like your Scandinavian breakfast platter." George steps away and returns shortly with a plate of herrings which he delivers served up on the Big Paddle. He helps himself to some coffee. "So, what's with the puzzle, Constance?" "Well, it's a bit hard to tell because I don't have the box lid, and there are lots of pieces missing, and I think there are some extra ones, too. But I think it's a picture of how canon fits together. The background is a map of Europe, see? I've got some of the sections assembled - Hogwarts fits nicely in the Scotland area, but most of the rest of the locations could fit in any of several places. I've also got a lot of the characters, but it's hard to decide how they all fit together." Constance is pushing one rather inconsequential-looking section around thoughtfully. George sips his coffee. "So, this guy - purple turban, stammering, duplicitous look ... why is old Quirrell giving you trouble? He should just go in the Hogwarts Morgue for DADA Teachers Who Went Bad?" "The problem with Quirrell is that there is so little of him. He was barely even IN the story that he stars in, and of course, was disposed of right afterwards." Constance helps herself to a herring. "He has some odd characterisics, I mean, besides having Voldemort stuck on the back of his head. First, he seems to be quite dedicated to his craft, and to the study of the Dark Arts in general. And he seems to be quite a skilled wizard - he does lots of wandless magic in the dungeon. But the most puzzling thing is his seeming connection to Scandinavia." "Quirrell in Scandinavia?" George sits down at the table, interested. "That's a new one. How so?" "Well, there are two links. First, he has a particular skill with trolls. Trolls are especially prevalent in Scandinavian lore. I'm thinking he might have spent quite a bit of time living near trolls to learn how to handle them so well. Secondly, he was able to get a Norwegian Ridgeback dragon egg. This is no simple task because we know that these are quite rare. It is logical to assume that a rare type of dragon might not have much of a range outside of Norway. I'd say Norway or Sweden, but not much farther, otherwise, because of their rareness, they would not be able to find a breeding parter and would die out." George looked quizzical. "But how could he have gotten to Norway and back without having been missed? You can't apparate out of Hogwarts, the Knight Bus can't go under water, he would have to get permission from the Ministry of Magic for a portkey and broomsticks take too long?" Constance put the Quirrell section next to Hogwarts, where it fit perfectly. The puzzle began to hum softly. "Yes. That is the problem. He could have asked someone else to get it for him, but since the whole purpose of the egg was to get the answer on how to get past Fluffy, he probably wouldn't want to talk too many people about that. And he had to hurry - if the egg gets cold, the baby dragon would die. Even someone who he might ask to send a dragon's egg would have the same problem of how long it would take to travel being bad for the baby dragon. He could have made it easy on himself by just getting the egg of a local dragon, such as a Welch Green, but he didn't. So, why was Scandinavia his first choice?" George stirred his coffee. "Do you have an idea?" "I think he had a short cut north that made a trip to Norway easier than getting a local dragon. We know that there is another way out of Hogwarts which leads north. We saw it being used once in another context. I'm talking about the Lake, of course. We know that we can get from the Lake to somewhere on or near Durmstrang. I'm guessing that this portal is pretty quick - quick enough to make a Norwegian dragon more convenient than a Welch one. But this portal goes to Durmstrang. It's north of Hogwarts alright, but does it take us close to Norway?" Constance opened a Golden Scroll labeled "The HP Lexicon" and read "Durmstrang: (A) castle in northern Europe, so far north that the days are very short in winter." Constance looked up. "The Lexicon doesn't say much about Durmstrang. We don't really know where Durmstrang is." Constance reached for a pamphlet labeled "So You Want to Attend Durmstrang?" "All we know about the geography of Durmstrang is that the winters are cold, the days are short, and there are mountains, lakes and forests. That could very well describe somewhere in or near Norway, except for the fact that it has a German-sounding name and the headmaster and some of the students sound like they belong in Eastern Europe. We know that Viktor Krum is Bulgarian, for example." Constance continued, "I sent an owl broadcast (message 87518, Quirrell and Scandinavia?) to see what ideas others had about this particular issue. Most people believed that Durmstrang was in Russia because of the names problem." Constance picked up a section of puzzle which looked different from the rest and moved it next to the Durmstrang pieces. "Berit Jakobsen, who is from Norway, provided this piece (message 87528):" "Trolls are certainly "native" to Scandinavian countries, and so are the Norwegian ridgeback it seems. Also the mentioning of high mountains, lakes and a harsh, cold climate + very short days in the winter fit well." Constance continued, "Berit, a native Norwegian, agrees that climactically, Norway is an excellent candidate. But then the message continues:" "The only problem I have (but this is also a big problem that can't be overlooked) with Durmstrang being in Norway are the Slavic sounding names that you mention. Those names would be very foreign to Norwegian language and traditional culture. "The only historic incident I know of where a considerable amount of people with Slavic-sounding names resided in Norway was during the 2nd World War: The Germans shipped thousands of Yugoslavians to Norway and forced them to do slave labour. A lot of them died from hunger and exhaustion..." Folding up Berit's message, Constance looks up. "Berit was trying to prove that the names issue was really a contra-indicator for putting Durmstrang in Norway, but in fact, presented a solution to the very problem." Constance opens a book entitled "Modern History of Muggle Norway", authored by Berit Jakobsen, and reads briefly before looking up. "Berit describes part of Muggle War II when Germans occupied Norway and imported labor from Eastern Europe. There is actually a very interesting section in this book about a lake in Norway which was part of the Nazi A-bomb development efforts which is well worth reading. If the denizens of the Bay are interested, I would be happy to send them the excerpts by e-owl." Constance closes the book. "But back to the immediate point. I think it could have been possible for a Dark Wizard to have co-operated with the occupying force. I think the Dark Wizard could have taken over a wizard school in Scandinavia, renamed it with a German name and populated it with young wizards from Eastern Europe with the purpose of training them in the Dark Arts. In fact, there is a candidate Dark Wizard who could have done exactly that." "I think that Grindelwald was that Dark Wizard." George choked on his coffee. "But the only thing we know about Grindelwald is that he was defeated by Dumbledore in 1945!" "Exactly. And Dumbledore was at Hogwarts at the time. I think that is the source for the portal. I think that Dumbledore created the portal, used it to travel to Durmstrang in Norway, and defeated Grindelwald. I think Karkaroff might have used it once or twice before, too, because he says how nice it is to be BACK at Hogwarts. We have no evidence that any non-Brit ever attended Hogwarts, so when might he have been there before?" Constance connected Berit's piece to the Durmstrang piece where it fit. Returning to the "So You Want to Attend Durmstrang?" pamphlet, Constance continues, "Since the War, Durmstrang has continued to specialize in training in the Dark Arts, becoming a sort of a Magnet School, attracting students from all over Europe who want to learn the Dark Arts For Noble Purposes. This could be another source for students and staff with foreign-sounding names. We know that Draco Malfoy, a wizard with a French name, was a candidate for Durmstrang." Constance took a breath and paused to refill her coffee cup. "I think Quirrell was one of those foreigners who attended Durmstrang." George stared. He started to make a comment, but just then, a noisy group entered the Tavern demanding service and runny eggs. Ever the businessman, George said "Stay right there. I want to talk about all this as soon as I take care of all these people." Constance Vigilance From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Sat Dec 27 21:42:19 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 21:42:19 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Lars is bright tonight (part 2 of 2) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87646 This is the second of a two-part discussion of my theory concerning Quirrell and Scandinavia. For those who don't like TBAY, a follow-up post will present all the same facts and suppositions in an essay format. So, into the Bay ... <"((>< <"((>< <"((>< <"((>< <"((>< <"((>< <"((>< Looking a little frazzled after serving a bunch of noisy Snape- theorists their breakfasts, George returns to the corner table where Constance Vigilance is enjoying a plate of Scandinavian herrings over the pieces of a very problematic-looking jigsaw puzzle. George has thoughtfully brought a fresh hot pot of coffee and sits down. While he was gone, Constance has moved the puzzle sections representing Durmstrang to Norway. They fit, sort of, but there are many pieces missing from that area, so it is impossible to be absolutely certain. Constance is chewing on a herring. George pours them both fresh coffee. "That's quite a leap! First, locating Durmstrang in Norway on somewhat flimsy evidence, and then, putting Quirrell there? And all, basically, to solve the problem of how he managed to get a dragon egg from Norway?" "Yes, it is a bit of a stretch. But I think there is good evidence that would make Durmstrang an attractive option for someone like Quirrell. Let's look closer. We know that he was an idealistic young man. He says so himself:" "A foolish young man I was then, full of ridiculous ideas about good and evil. Lord Voldemort showed me how wrong I was." (SS, US edition, page 291) "We also know that he was a dedicated student of his craft. When we first meet him, he is getting a book on vampires. He gives exams on werewolves. Hagrid says he was a good teacher until he took a year off to travel. Only the most dedicated teachers take a sabbatical to get more experience in their subject matter. I think it would have been right in character for him to have chosen Durmstrang as a means to study the Dark Arts for the purpose of defeating evil." "As a dedicated student at Durmstrang, not only might he have learned about the Dark Arts and how to perform wandless magic, but it would have put him in a perfect location to become skilled with trolls, and to learn about Norwegian dragons." "But there is another puzzling thing about Quirrell." "And that is ... ?" "What happened to him? Voldemort believes he is dead." Constance sampled another herring. "But look carefully at what Dumbledore says:" "(Voldemort) left Quirrell to die; he shows just as little mercy to his followers as his enemies." (SS, US edition, page 298) "See? Dumbledore never says he died, only that he was left for dead. Furthermore, Quirrell was fortified with unicorn's blood. Firenze tells us, 'The blood of a unicorn will keep you alive, even if you are an inch from death, but at a terrible price.'" George looked confident. "But! In GoF, we have proof that Quirrell is dead. I remember reading that Voldemort says, 'The servant died when I left his body.'" "Yes, but all that proves is the Voldemort THINKS Quirrell is dead. Voldemort is known for jumping to conclusions. More importantly, if Quirrell died, where is the body? It's just a bit fishy. Which reminds me, do you have any more of these delicious herrings?" George runs to the kitchen and brings back a fresh plate of herrings, served, as before, on the Big Paddle, which is beginning to be thought of as the Kinder, Gentler Paddle. Constance begins again, "Let's look again at what we know happened in the dungeon." "Harry jumped to his feet, caught Quirrell by the arm, and hung on as tight as he could. Quirrell screamed and tried to throw Harry off - the pain in Harry's head was building - he couldn't see he could only hear Quirrell's terrible shrieks and Voldemort's yells of, 'KILL HIM! KILL HIM!' and other voices, maybe in Harry's own head, crying 'Harry! Harry!' "He felt Quirrell's arm wrenched from his grasp, hew all was lost and fell into blackness, down ... down ... down ..." (SS, US edition, page 294) Constance looks up. "The next thing Harry knows, it's three days later and he's in the hospital. So, what happened in the dungeon? We know that Voldemort left Quirrell. Then what? Either Quirrell died, and the body went - where? Or he lived and escaped? How could an exhausted and injured Quirrell escape from Dumbledore? What if, without Voldemort infesting Quirrell's thinking, he and Dumbledore had a heart-to-heart, with the end result that Quirrell came back to the good side?" "Let's see what happens when we put these Dumbledore pieces here in the dungeon with Quirrell and Harry and some other random pieces and see what happens." Constance moves a kindly-looking section of Dumbledore pieces into the mirror room and connects Quirrell, the Lake with its portal to Durmstrang, and the Hogwarts plumbing all together. The puzzle starts to hum and spin. The pieces begin to become three- dimensional and come to life, a tiny holographic vignette. George and Constance lean in close, not to miss a word. Dumbledore pulls Quirrell off Harry. Voldemort flies out of Quirrell's head and out of the dungeon. Quirrell collapses, injured and exhausted, but no longer violent. He is near death, but conscious. Dumbledore: Welcome back, Quirrell. Nice job on that troll a couple of rooms back. Quirrell: I don't know how I could have become so dissuaded from the Path of Good. How can I ever repay the world for what I almost did? Dumbledore: As a matter of fact, there is something you can do. You can go back to Norway and recruit the students of Durmstrang to our side. While you are at it, you can recruit the trolls, who, according to Scandinavian lore, usually fight alongside giants in any battle. They would be powerful allies. Quirrell: But how can I get out there without Voldemort knowing that I lived? Dumbledore: There is actually a direct way out of here. A young ghost known as Moaning Myrtle discovered that the Hogwarts plumbing leads directly out to the lake. And I noticed in a crystal ball gazing that about a year from now, we will have proof that at least some of the pipes are large enough for a person to get through. You can "flush" yourself out of the castle into the lake. Then you can take a First Years' boat through the portal to Durmstrang. But first, you will need some strength. Dumbledore gets the Stone with its Elixer of Life from Harry's pocket and gives it to Quirrell. Quirrell drinks the Elixer and regains his full strength. He then follows Dumbledore's suggestion and disappears for the next several books. The hologram fades back into a puzzle. Constance and George look at each other. George, remembering, says, "Interesting point about the Elixer. I think I remember Dumbledore saying about the Stone, 'As for the stone, it has been destroyed.' (page 297) He never says HOW it was destroyed. I suppose he COULD have given it to Quirrell, now that Quirrell was back on the Side of Good." Constance nodded. "And then there is this last little bit. I think it was a private joke that was intended to last until the final denouement. Back in the castle, when Harry is in the hospital, Dumbledore says this:" "What happened in the dungeons between you and Professor Quirrell is a complete secret, so, naturally, the whole school knows. I believe your friends Misters Fred and George Weasley were responsible for trying to send you a toilet seat." Taking a last bite of herring, Constance laughed. "If Quirrell had just flushed himself out of Hogwarts, the gift of a toilet seat is particularly appropriate, eh? I wonder if there is more than one Weasley who can 'see' when they are joking?" "Now, I'm kind of tired of herrings, and it's about lunch time. What is on the lunch menu?" Constance Vigilance From mommystery at hotmail.com Sat Dec 27 21:41:55 2003 From: mommystery at hotmail.com (mommystery2003) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 21:41:55 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87647 Alla wrote: > See, to me Harry always be the wronged > one and innocent one in their relationship > and whatever mistakes he made are nothing > in comparison to emotional abuse Snape put > him through and continues put him through. I have to totally disagree with you on that point...it was Snape who was the wronged one in SS because Harry decided his guilt with little evidence and then never apologized to Snape for thinking he was the one trying to kill him. Harry owed Snape at least a thank you for saving his life at Quiddich. Ces From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Sat Dec 27 21:58:34 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 21:58:34 -0000 Subject: Lars is bright tonight (essay format) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87648 Because some people don't like the TBAY format, I am presenting the same information here in essay format that was posted under the title "TBAY: Lars is bright tonight" parts 1 and 2. Although I think TBAY was really the better presentation format for this subject matter, I didn't want to exclude readers for whom the TBAY format is problematic. As before, the title "Lars is bright tonight" is intended to convey my belief that Scandinavia will become important if the Potterverse follows the path that this theory espouses. This theory is based on several premises: 1 - Quirrell is a key character 2 - Durmstrang is in Norway 3 - Quirrell is related to Durmstrang Here we go: The problem with Quirrell is that there is so little of him. He is barely given any screen time and then he is killed off. What should we have learned from him? Why should we care? Let's see what we know about him. He is, or was, a dedicated and apparently competent teacher of the Dark Arts. Hagrid and Percy both comment that he was a fine teacher until went on sabbatical and came back changed. Only the most dedicated of teachers would want to branch out from theoretical knowledge and make that commitment to go out and gain the practical. When we first meet him, he is adding to his library by buying a book on vampires. We know that Hermione studies for an exam on werewolves, so his grasp of the subject matter seems to be up to snuff. I think we can conclude that he was a credit to his profession. He seems to have a connection to Scandinavia. We know this because of two things. One, he has a special skill with trolls. Trolls are especially prevalent in Scandinavian lore. Also, when he needed to get a dragon egg for Hagrid, he chose to get a rare Norwegian Ridgeback egg. Where would one get such a rare egg? Possibly from a dragon reserve somewhere in Europe? Maybe. But I think it is most likely that he got it from the source - a nest somewhere in Norway. Why Norway? If he needed a dragon egg, why not make it easy on himself and get a local Welch Green? I think it was that he was most familiar with Norwegian animals. Furthermore, I think he was in a hurry and needed to get the egg and get back in the least amount of time. First, because he didn't want to be missed. Secondly, because if the egg gets too cold, the baby dragon will die. And this sort of rules out the possibility of getting an egg from a dragon reserve in Europe, too. You still have the same travel and time problems. I think he must have got it from Nowary. But how to get to Norway and back quickly? Apparate? No - you can't apparate in or out of Hogwarts. Knight Bus? No - it won't go under water, and besides, he wants to keep his activities a secret. Portkey? Requires Ministry of Magic approval. Broomsticks or thestrals? Too slow. Ask someone to bring him an egg? They would be subject to the same travel issues, and besides, there is the secrecy problem. There is one other way into and out of Hogwarts. It leads north. One can travel in secret. I'm talking about the Lake. But the lake leads into or near Durmstrang. The Lake portal will only be of help if Durmstrang is in Norway. Can Durmstrang be in Norway? All we know about Durmstrang is that it gets cold, winter nights are short and there are lakes, mountains and forests. Norway works, check, check and check. But then we run into a problem. How do we justify a school in Norway sporting a German-sounding school name with staff and students that sound like they belong in Eastern Europe? These names would be exceedingly uncommon in Norway. >From listee Berit Jakobsen (message 87528), we learn that during Muggle War II, when Norway was occupied, the Nazis shipped thousands of Yugoslavians to Norway for slave labor. I think it is possible that a German Dark Wizard cooperated with the occupying force, taking over a wizarding school in Norway, giving it a German name and populating it with young wizards from Eastern Europe for the purpose of learning the Dark Arts for global mischief. In fact, we know of one Dark Wizard who could have done exactly that. I think Grindelwald was that Dark Wizard. This brings us full circle back to Hogwarts. Dumbledore was teaching at Hogwarts in 1945. I think it is possible that he created the portal through the Lake to Durmstrang, traveled north and defeated Grindelwald in 1945. We know that the portal is still active. Presuming that the portal works quickly, this would provide a means for Quirrell to get to Norway and back with a dragon egg before it got cold enough for the baby dragon to die. But how would he be familiar with Durmstrang? We know that Durmstrang today is known for its teaching in the Dark Arts, and attracts students from all over Europe who want to study the Dark Arts. This could be another source for students and staff with foreign (to Norwegian ears) names. We know that Draco Malfoy considered attending Durmstrang. I believe that Quirrell was a student at Durmstrang. I believe he was as idealistic a young wizard as he was in his early days teaching at Hogwarts. I think he could have attended Durmstrang with an eye to learning the Dark Arts for noble purposes. In addition, spending his formative years in Norway would give him ample opportunity to learn about trolls. So - if these suppositions provide Quirrell the background to become what he became, how does this matter to us now? Let's review what happened in the dungeon. Harry is holding on to Quirrell who is screaming with pain. Voldemort is yelling "Kill him! Kill him!" Then Harry hears someone calling his name just as he lapses into unconsciousness. The next thing we know, he is awakening in the hospital three days later and has a conversation with Dumbledore. But what happened in the meantime? Let's go back into the dungeon and take another look. Harry is unconscious. Voldemort flies out of Quirrell's head and leaves the scene. Quirrell collapses, near death. What next? Does he die? But Quirrell is fortified with a double dose of unicorn blood, which, according to Firenze, will keep you alive, even if you are an inch from death. Let's see what Dumbledore says about it "(Voldemort) left Quirrell to die; he shows just as little mercy to his followers as his enemies." (SS, US edition, page 298) Dumbledore does not say he died, only that he was left for dead. We know that Voldemort believes he is dead. In GoF, he says, "The servant died when I left his body." But we know that Voldemort jumps to conclusions and is usually wrong. More importantly, if Quirrell died, where is the body? I think Quirrell survived. So, let's hypothesize what happened next. Did Quirrell escape? Doubtful. How could an exhausted and injured Quirrell escape from Dumbledore? I think that with the Voldemort parasite out of his head, he and Dumbledore were able to have a heart-to-heart and Quirrell turned back to the Good Side. One problem left. How did he get out of Hogwarts without anyone, especially Voldemort, finding out that he was still alive? I think we need to look into the next few books for that answer. From Moaning Myrtle, we know that Hogwarts plumbing empties into the Lake. >From Chamber of Secrets, we know that at least some of the pipes are large enough for a man to pass through. I think Dumbledore gave Quirrell the Elixer of Life to restore his strength, then Quirrell "flushed" himself into the lake, where he borrowed a First Years' boat and portalled out to Durmstrang. I think he is, even now, recruiting the Dark Arts students there, and maybe the trolls, too, for a last-minute cavalry charge for the Good Guys. And that is why I think Scandinavia will become important somewhere in the next two books. There is one postscript which is pretty comical, given the scenario that I have just described. Here is what Dumbledore says to Harry in the hospital: "What happened in the dungeons between you and Professor Quirrell is a complete secret, so, naturally, the whole school knows. I believe your friends Misters Fred and George Weasley were responsible for trying to send you a toilet seat." If Quirrell had just flushed himself out of Hogwarts, the gift of a toilet seat is particularly appropriate, eh? I wonder if there is more than one Weasley who can 'see' when they are joking? Constance Vigilance From belijako at online.no Sat Dec 27 22:03:06 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 22:03:06 -0000 Subject: Neville's family In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87649 Meri wrote: My question is this: why would the Longbottoms think that Neville was all Muggle? Was his mother from a Muggle family? Or are the Longbottoms not all wizards and witches as I thought? Berit replies: I think it's quite clear from the context why the Longbottoms thought Neville didn't have any magical abilities: Simply because he hadn't shown any. That's why they were always trying to "force" him to reveal some :-) His Uncle tried to, quote: "to catch me off my guard and force some magic out of me... but nothing happened until I was eight." (PS p. 93 UK Ed.) It seems that usually magical children reveal their abilities much earlier in life. Just look at the campsite scene at the Quidditch World Cup; Harry spotted two and three-year-olds brandishing mini-wands and flying on toy broomsticks :-) Neville couldn't do that sort of thing when he was a toddler; in PS, even as an eleven year old, he tells Harry he had never ridden a broom before. And even after Neville, at the age of eight, had "proven" he was magical after all, his family "thought I might not be magic enough to come (to Hogwarts]" (PS p. 93 UK Ed). Poor Neville just didn't show much talent for magic :-) Opposed to for instance Harry, who wasn't even brought up by wizards, but made strange things happen around him from an early age. Berit From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Sat Dec 27 22:12:58 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 17:12:58 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) References: Message-ID: <000a01c3ccc6$9696c500$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> No: HPFGUIDX 87650 Ces said: I have to totally disagree with you on that point...it was Snape who was the wronged one in SS because Harry decided his guilt with little evidence and then never apologized to Snape for thinking he was the one trying to kill him. Harry owed Snape at least a thank you for saving his life at Quiddich. Joj: How exactly was Snape hurt by Harry thinking Snape was trying to kill him? Except for the pensive, Harry has never hurt Snape. Snape hurts Harry all the time. Why would Harry thank Snape, the man who goes out of his way to make his life a living hell, and would do worse if he could get away with it? Snape would laugh in his face, or deny it, or hate him even more. Why should Harry? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sat Dec 27 22:29:14 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 22:29:14 -0000 Subject: The Great Humberto Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87651 One thing that puzzles me upon reading SS is the Great Humberto. Dudley fusses about missing the show of that name when they are running about trying to avoid Harry's Hogwarts letters. Upon first reading, I had assumed that the Great Humberto was a magician, along the lines of the Great Houdini. The only other option that comes into my head would be that of a superhero, but that sounds a bit corny. Given Vernon's attitude towards magic, imagination, and things of that nature, would he even allow Dudders to watch such a program? Sure, Dudley is spoilt rotten, but he must have some limits. I can see Vernon drawing the line on this one for fear that it may give Harry, if not Dudley, "ideas". So, Good Brits, *is* (or was)there an actual show called the Great Humberto? If not, what type would it be? Magic? Superhero? Something else? Just one of those things that puzzles. Ginger, who received PS in Latin for Christmas and is having a wonderfully difficult time getting through it. From meriaugust at yahoo.com Sat Dec 27 22:54:08 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 22:54:08 -0000 Subject: Snape and Harry (was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry in NEWT Potions Class?) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031227122127.01f99ac0@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87652 > >Alla said: > >See, to me Harry always be the wronged one and innocent one in their > >relationship snips > Derek: > Just to be clear, I'm in no way trying to excuse Snape. He is absolutely > in the wrong in every way he's ever treated Harry. more snips > mom31: > >I hope Harry does apologize to Snape. It will give us just one more example of how much better of a person Harry is than Snape. > > Derek: > Yes, this is exactly what I was trying to get at. snipping again > I'm saying that Snape's a big weenie who will never make any move to > better his relationship with Harry, so if the relationship will ever > improve, it will be Harry stuck with improving it. :-) > > - Derek Yes, but even if Harry can see beyond his own idiocy (after all, he hated Snape so much in OotP that he completely forgot that old Severus was a member of the order) and musters up the courage (a lot of which he will need) to apologize to Snape, does anyone out there honestly think that Snape will accept it? I can just see Harry, begging Snape's forgiveness for his father and his godfather's admittedly terrible actions while they were in school (and I was made fun of in high school, I know what it was like for Snape) and thanking Sanpe for saving his life in SS and Snape just throwing it back in Harry's face, with some comment about how arrogant it was for Harry to do such a stupid thing as assume that he could make up for his dad's actions. Snape has had nearly twenty years to get over what happened to him at Hogwarts (I've only been out of high school for three years and I'm over it) and it doesn't seem like he ever will. Harry himself got Snape right on the money when in PoA he called Snape pathetic, and IMHO, that's exactly what the Potions Master is: obsessed with causing trouble for the son of his school nemisis, never growing up enough to forgive and forget. I feel bad for Snape, of course, I really do. He clearly had a rough childhood, and a not so easy young adulthood, but that doesn't give him cause to treat anyone the way he does, especially a kid who never did a thing to him. Snape will never be the bigger person in ANY relationship, let alone that one between him and Harry, and even if Harry tries to forgive, I'll bet he just gets shot down. Meri (who hopes she won't be pelted with owls from all the Snape lovers out there) From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sat Dec 27 22:59:19 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 22:59:19 -0000 Subject: FILK: Animagi Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87653 Animagi (OOP Chap. 10) To the tune of Grand Old Ivy from How to Succeed in Buisness Without Even Trying Sorry, No MIDI - it's in the style of football fight song Dedicated to Haggridd and the (hopeful) revival of the American musical theatre THE SCENE: 12 Grimmauld Place. Sirius, in the guise of PADFOOT, escorts HARRY to King's Cross, where they are spotted by the Malfoys PADFOOT (bursting through the front door): Hound dog! HARRY (likewise): Hound dog! PADFOOT (proudly marching together with HARRY): Animagi Gives you support Animagi, Your canine escort. BOTH: Animagi The greatest dane Cross, cross, cross Toward King's Cross and the train HARRY: When you jog with a dog PADFOOT: And you're dodging traffic through the London streets HARRY: We're dodging traffic through the streets. PADFOOT: Soon the Hogwarts Express we are going to greet HARRY: The Express, yes oh yes, we'll greet PADFOOT: Don't forget, boy, BOTH: That's why he/I patrol(s) as, Patrol(s) as: Hound dog! Hound dog! (As they enter King's Cross, they are seen by the MALFOYS, who instantly recognize PADFOOT's guise) LUCIUS Whos's dog? Whos's dog? It's, it's, it's a `Magi DRACO: Animagi Sirius Black BOTH: Animagi We shall set you back LUCIUS Hound dog! Found dog! We got him! BOTH: That dog must die That mutt is nailed Rip, rip, rip - The 'Magi through the Veil! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS Home/att/net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sun Dec 28 00:01:13 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 19:01:13 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) Message-ID: <4FDCB878.4A943839.4B073798@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87654 In a message dated 12/27/2003 5:12:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, mom31 at rochester.rr.com writes: > How exactly was Snape hurt by Harry thinking Snape was >trying to kill him? Except for the pensive, Harry has never >hurt Snape. Snape hurts Harry all the time. Why would Harry >thank Snape, the man who goes out of his way to make his life >a living hell, and would do worse if he could get away with >it? Snape would laugh in his face, or deny it, or hate him > even more. Why should Harry? Because it's the right thing to do. It doesn't matter what the other person says or does about being thanked, it's the fact that you did it. It's not supposed to make Severus feel better, it's to make Harry feel better. Oryomai --Who will post more defending her dear Severus at a later time, 7 p.m. is too early for her to think correctly! From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Sun Dec 28 02:34:49 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 02:34:49 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031227034329.0287b390@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87655 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Derek Hiemforth wrote: > If Harry were to approach Snape and tell him (sincerely) that he's > grateful for Snape's aid, that he was totally in the wrong to look at Snape's memory in the Pensieve, that he feels terrible about having done so, and that he thinks the way his father and godfather treated Snape as youths was dreadful and something Harry would never do to anyone, then I think it might have a definite impact on Snape. Laura: Maybe, but maybe not. I keep remembering how dear Severus reacted when Harry was frantically trying to get help for Crouch Sr in GoF. Snape toyed with him as long as possible despite Harry's obvious distress. You can imagine how he would have reacted if Harry had come running to him in a panic and tried to tell him that LV had Sirius. Because the Order was involved and because Snape knew that Harry's dreams were real, he might have relented sooner or later. But he might well have told Harry to go away (in his usual charming fashion) and then used his own methods to find out what was really going on. And who knows how long it might have taken him to get around to telling Harry that Sirius was safe? From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 28 02:34:47 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 02:34:47 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: <000a01c3ccc6$9696c500$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87656 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mom31" wrote: > > Ces said: > > I have to totally disagree with you on that point...it was Snape > who was the wronged one in SS because Harry decided his guilt with > little evidence and then never apologized to Snape for thinking he > was the one trying to kill him. Harry owed Snape at least a thank > you for saving his life at Quiddich. > We do remember, right, how "friendly" Snape was to Harry at the first Potions lesson? Small wonder Harry considered him to be a villain, which is a perfectly normal thing for eleven year old to do. Thank you for saving his life at Quidditch? First of all I would say for attempt to save his life - I think Hermione was the one who actually did it. nevertheless, attempt still counts as a good deed. :o) I'll say Harry still has time to do it. > > Joj: > How exactly was Snape hurt by Harry thinking Snape was trying to kill him? Except for the pensive, Harry has never hurt Snape. Snape hurts Harry all the time. Why would Harry thank Snape, the man who goes out of his way to make his life a living hell, and would do worse if he could get away with it? Snape would laugh in his face, or deny it, or hate him even more. Why should Harry? > I also think that Harry never actually hurt Snape (even when he went into Pensieve, which was a wrong thing to do, of course. remember that he was looking for information about Department of Mysteries, not to learn something about Snape's past. Under circumstances - being kept in the dark all year and going crazy about it, I can't say that I blame him much) Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 28 02:44:28 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 02:44:28 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87657 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Derek Hiemforth > Laura: > > Maybe, but maybe not. I keep remembering how dear Severus reacted > when Harry was frantically trying to get help for Crouch Sr in GoF. > Snape toyed with him as long as possible despite Harry's obvious > distress. You can imagine how he would have reacted if Harry had > come running to him in a panic and tried to tell him that LV had > Sirius. Because the Order was involved and because Snape knew that > Harry's dreams were real, he might have relented sooner or later. > But he might well have told Harry to go away (in his usual charming > fashion) and then used his own methods to find out what was really > going on. And who knows how long it might have taken him to get > around to telling Harry that Sirius was safe? Oh, yeah. Very helpful he was indeed. Don't you think that this scene was Snape at its worst to Harry in GoF. Who knows, maybe Crouch Sr. could have been saved if Harry could have gotten to Dumbledore's few moments earlier. But of course, Dear Severus has to be his spiteful and bullying self even at the moments like this. Snape is a wonderful character, but G-d knows how many times I want to smack him across the head and tell him to go pick up on somebody, who is his own size. Alla From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sun Dec 28 02:46:32 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 21:46:32 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) Message-ID: <0E56C522.352DE564.4B073798@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87658 In a message dated 12/27/2003 9:34:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com writes: > Thank you for saving his life at Quidditch? First of all I would say > for attempt to save his life - I think Hermione was the one who > actually did it. nevertheless, attempt still counts as a > good > deed. :o) DISCLAIMER: I am currently sick, so if I say something that comes across as mean, I apologize! What? *Hermione*? Harry would've fallen off his broom long before she cast her spell if Severus hadn't been using a countercurse! Although I think this is movie contamination, Severus fell into a guy to fall into Quirell on purpose so Quirell would stop. I really don't think that coming in at the last second counts as "saving Harry's life". Reminds me of all those cop shows where the local cops get angry when the FBI comes in because they steal all the glory (no offense to any actual FBI people, I'm only paralleling the situation). Giving the credit to Hermione when Severus held Quirell off for so long is wrong IMO. I think Severus would have beat Quirell's curse. Oryomai From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Sun Dec 28 02:51:45 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 02:51:45 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87659 "mommystery2003" One of the difficulties of the books is that we are only seeing things through Harry's perspective..we know he is blaming (wrongly) Snape for Black's death, but we are not seeing Snape's reaction on being told Black died...I'm sure Snape is affected by it somehow, even if it's the loss of an adversary and I for one will miss the little insulting conversations between the two - they certainly made for some humorous reading! Getting back to Harry though, he learned in the first book that Snape was the one protecting him from falling off the broom, but never even thought to go thank him for it - instead, he continues to see Snape as the evil person he's told he is...also, in one respect Harry is spoiled and cosseted - he continually breaks the rules, yet is rewarded at the end for doing so - is it any wonder Snape sees some of James in Harry? What punishment did Black receive for the prank he played on Snape? What punishment did James receive for hanging Snape upside down? None it seems... Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; (mommystery2003"One of the difficulties of the books is that we are only seeingthings through Harry's perspective..we know he is blaming (wrongly)Snape for Black's death.") Fred waldrop:I don't know, if Snape would have came out to the forest to let Harry know that Sirius was OK, Harry would not have went to the MOM. But Snape was in the school probably thinking "hahaha, you don't know if your godfather is alive or dead, and that is fine by me, you filthy little...." So, in a way it is Snape's fault. If he would have gone and told Harry that Sirius was home and OK, Sirius would still be alive. (mommystery2003"he never thanked him (Snape) for it"...) For what? Doing his job? Tell me "mommystery2003", wouldn't you think it IS the teachers jobs to protect the students as much as possible? I do. But according to yo, it is up to the 11 year old children to look after themself. Luckily, Harry and company is pretty good at doing just that, isn't it? (mommysyery2003"also, in one respect Harry is spoiled and cosseted") Fred again: In what way is Harry spoilted and conceited? I have always wanted someone to explain this to me. (mommystery2003"he continually breaks the rules, yet is rewarded at the end for doing so") Fred again:He is fighting a war. He has to break some rules to win. When he is caught, he is punished like everyone else. (mommystey2003"What punishment did Black receive for the prank he played on Snape?") Fred again: And what punishment did Snape get for being where he was, out of school, out of bounds, and in the presents of a werewolf? Everyone keeps talking like it is Blacks fault for Snape almost becomeing Kibbles and Bitts(dogfood), but it was Snapes own faught. Was he suppost to be out of the school after dark? NO! Was he suppost to be around the Wamping Willow? NO! Hell, he wasn't even suppost to be out of his dorm after hours. So, how is it James or Sirious fault for Snape getting into the teeth of a werewolf? It wasn't!!! If Snape would have minded his own business, and possible used the time he was wasting on spying on MWPP and washed his hair, maybe he would not have been disliked as much. (Derek Hiemforth"If Snape mistreats Harry because he sees too much of James in him, I can't think of anything Harry could do to change that impression more than to to willingly approach Snape, thank him for his help, apologize for his own actions, and express regret at his father's actions.") Fred again:And while Harry's at it, he can apologize for the way Snapes dad trated him, for the fact that DD hasn't given him the defence against the dark arts, for him having oily hair and every other bad thing that has happened to Snape in his life. When will everyone understand that SNAPE is the ADULT and HARRY is the CHILD. Of course, I understand, the Snape lovers feel that Snape had a bad childhood and Harry had such a wonderful childhood, so Harry should just buck up and do what needs to be done and lick Snapes boots and, and, and...... There is nothing Harry could do, except kill Snape, which would make Harry's life much, much better, that would make Snape get off Harry's back. Fred From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 28 02:52:29 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 02:52:29 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: <0E56C522.352DE564.4B073798@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87660 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: > In a message dated 12/27/2003 9:34:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, dumbledore11214 at y... writes: > DISCLAIMER: I am currently sick, so if I say something that comes across as mean, I apologize! > > What? *Hermione*? Harry would've fallen off his broom long before she cast her spell if Severus hadn't been using a countercurse! Although I think this is movie contamination, Severus fell into a guy to fall into Quirell on purpose so Quirell would stop. I really don't think that coming in at the last second counts as "saving Harry's life". Reminds me of all those cop shows where the local cops get angry when the FBI comes in because they steal all the glory (no offense to any actual FBI people, I'm only paralleling the situation). Giving the credit to Hermione when Severus held Quirell off for so long is wrong IMO. I think Severus would have beat Quirell's curse. > > Oryomai You did not said anything that came across as mean, don't worry. :o) We'll never know, would we, whether Severus would have beat Quirrel curse? ;) Even if he would, my main point is that it is VERY understandable for Harry to think of him as villain and that the apology was the last thing on his mind. Alla From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sun Dec 28 03:16:05 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (Blair) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 03:16:05 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87661 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Fred Waldrop" wrote: >I don't know, if Snape would have came out to the forest > to let Harry know that Sirius was OK, Harry would not have went to > the MOM. But Snape was in the school probably thinking "hahaha, you > don't know if your godfather is alive or dead, and that is fine by > me, you filthy little...." So, in a way it is Snape's fault. If he > would have gone and told Harry that Sirius was home and OK, Sirius > would still be alive. Right, I missed the bulletin that said Severus was the Devil...must look for it later. Didn't Dumbledore go in the Forest? After Severus alerted everyone, do we know that Dumbledore didn't tell him to stay inside the school? By the time Severus was able to alert everyone, would Harry and Co. still have been in the Forest? How would Severus have found them anyway? And more importantly, would Harry have believed Severus? > For what? Doing his job? > Tell me "mommystery2003", wouldn't you think it IS the teachers jobs > to protect the students as much as possible? I do. > But according to yo, it is up to the 11 year old children to look > after themself. > Luckily, Harry and company is pretty good at doing just that, isn't > it? It is Severus' job to protect Harry, or is it him trying to repay his life debt? I don't expect any of my teachers to take a bullet for me. It's their job to do as much as possible, but I also think an apology would be nice. > Fred again: In what way is Harry spoilted and conceited? I have > always wanted someone to explain this to me. > Fred again:He is fighting a war. He has to break some rules to win. > When he is caught, he is punished like everyone else. Actually, the only time I can remember Harry being fairly punished is in his first year. (Umbridge punished everyone!) But Harry isn't supposed to be fighting the war! At the beginning of OoP, Harry says he wants to join and they tell him no! Harry is *NOT* supposed to be fighting! > Fred again: And what punishment did Snape get for being where he was, > out of school, out of bounds, and in the presents of a werewolf? > Everyone keeps talking like it is Blacks fault for Snape almost > becomeing Kibbles and Bitts(dogfood), but it was Snapes own faught. > Was he suppost to be out of the school after dark? NO! Was he suppost > to be around the Wamping Willow? NO! Hell, he wasn't even suppost to > be out of his dorm after hours. > So, how is it James or Sirious fault for Snape getting into the teeth > of a werewolf? It wasn't!!! If Snape would have minded his own > business, and possible used the time he was wasting on spying on MWPP > and washed his hair, maybe he would not have been disliked as much. Wow. Blame the victim. That's real nice. Pick on his appearance. Oh, that's cool too. Were James and Sirius supposed to be out of their dorm after hours? NO! But no one blames them, do they? Of course not. They're Gryffindors. How many punishments could be worse than almost getting eaten by a werewolf I wonder. There are very few situations where one side is entirely to blame. Severus is to blame, but Sirius is too! I know if my greatest enemies who tortured me, made my life a living hell, and turned me upside down in front of the whole school were doing something wrong, you can bet that I'd be going after them! It's Sirius' fault because the story goes that he led them there. Until I hear otherwise, he's to blame. Not totally, but partially. > When will everyone understand that SNAPE is the ADULT and HARRY is > the CHILD. I think I'll figure that out when I decide that Harry is a child. I said, many posts ago, that I don't think the Trio are children anymore. > Of course, I understand, the Snape lovers feel that Snape > had a bad childhood and Harry had such a wonderful childhood, so > Harry should just buck up and do what needs to be done and lick > Snapes boots and, and, and...... You know, you don't have to be an ass about it. I'm a little offended by that, actually. Do you think I'm stupid? (I'm only saying "I" because I don't wanna speak for anyone else and put words in their mouth.) I don't remember anyone suggesting that Harry "lick Snapes boots" (as you so eloquently put it). I think the suggestion was Harry thank him and leave it at that. No one ever said that Harry had a wonderful childhood, so I think you should stop putting words in other people's mouths thankyouverymuch. > There is nothing Harry could do, except kill Snape, which would make > Harry's life much, much better, that would make Snape get off Harry's > back. That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my entire life (and I go to public school in the United States!). I think you were really harsh. Killing Snape? Haven't there been a billion posts on how Harry could never turn into a killer, and you're suggesting that Harry kill a member of the Order. That's nice. Oryomai From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 28 03:27:16 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 03:27:16 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87662 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Blair" wrote: > > Right, I missed the bulletin that said Severus was the Devil...must > look for it later. Believe it or not, after OoP I do think that Severus MAY turn out to be the devil. > > It is Severus' job to protect Harry, or is it him trying to repay his > life debt? I don't expect any of my teachers to take a bullet for > me. It's their job to do as much as possible, but I also think an > apology would be nice. Please, please refer me to the incident where Snape took a bullet for Harry or at least ATTEMPTED to do so. ( I do understand that it was a metaphor :o)) > Actually, the only time I can remember Harry being fairly punished is > in his first year. (Umbridge punished everyone!) But Harry isn't > supposed to be fighting the war! At the beginning of OoP, Harry says > he wants to join and they tell him no! Harry is *NOT* supposed to be > fighting! > That's where I very strongly disagree. He is fighting a war indeed and if the rules are broken with the noble intentions in mind, I do excuse it. > I think I'll figure that out when I decide that Harry is a child. I > said, many posts ago, that I don't think the Trio are children > anymore. Another very strong disagreement, no matter what physical and emotional hell they had been through, they are fifteen year old children and at the beginning of the books were eleven year olds. Do you think that in the first book Harry was not a child either? That was one very quick development. :o) Alla From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sun Dec 28 03:47:03 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (Blair) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 03:47:03 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87663 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Believe it or not, after OoP I do think that Severus MAY turn out to > be the devil. I'm not even gonna comment. I must try to be nicer. I'd like to stay on this list. > Please, please refer me to the incident where Snape took a bullet for > Harry or at least ATTEMPTED to do so. ( I do understand that it was a > metaphor :o)) The comment I was replying to was "protecting students". Since there is no danger of me being cursed off my broom, I used the only thing I could concievably be in danger of. > That's where I very strongly disagree. He is fighting a war indeed > and if the rules are broken with the noble intentions in mind, I do > excuse it. How do we decide who's rule breaking is allowed and who's is not? Is it ok for Fred and George to break the rules? He wasn't even punished for the flying Ford Anglia! They raided Severus' cabinet (and I don't think they would have been punished even if they had been caught)! > Another very strong disagreement, no matter what physical and > emotional hell they had been through, they are fifteen year old > children and at the beginning of the books were eleven year olds. > Do you think that in the first book Harry was not a child either? No one else agreed with me either. How does everyone else define "child"? Is it just by age? To me, a child is someone who doesn't understand what is going on around them, cannot do anything about it, and refuses to do anything about it. Harry was a child when it started, he hadn't fought anyone. Child is a relative term. I stand by what I think even if you all seem to think I'm stupid for thinking it -- I'll deal. Oryomai From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 28 11:48:48 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 03:48:48 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) References: Message-ID: <004e01c3cd38$8e6cbf20$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87664 Alla > Another very strong disagreement, no matter what physical and > emotional hell they had been through, they are fifteen year old > children and at the beginning of the books were eleven year olds. > Do you think that in the first book Harry was not a child either? > K I agree that Harry is still a child - which is why I dislike the way Dumbledore tends to not do anything about it when he suspects Harry is about to do something ridiculously dangerous. Last time I said that someone said that since the prophecy only said that Harry could defeat Voldemort but not when he had to let him in case he succeeded in killing him and I didn't get a chance to reply. I strongly disagree with that - the prophecy says that Harry can kill Voldemort of Voldemort can kill him (if you interpret it that way and assume it's definitive truth, which personally I don't), the fact that it *doesn't* say when means that Dumbledore would be perfectly justified in trying to keep him away from Voldemort until he was old enough to survive not just physically but mentally. By carelessly allowing Harry to get in danger in the hopes that a child can kill Voldemort for him (when he himself chose not to in OoP) Dumbledore is, in my opinion, failing in not only his duty of care as a teacher but in his moral responsibility as a decent human being! However, the fact that Harry is still a child is to me far more of a reason why Harry should be punished regardless of why he is breaking the rules. He isn't old enough yet (or at least he wasn't at the beginning of OoP, he *may* be developing the ability) to distinguish when he has a *good* reason to break the rules and when breaking the rules simply coincides with what he wants to do. By letting him get away with it so often Albus is deliberately or not giving Harry the impression that rules can be broken at will and you won't get punished for it, or at least you won't if you're Harry Potter. And worse he may well end up encouraging that idea in the heads of the rest of the students. I have no problem with Harry being punished despite the fact he had a good reason for doing the right thing. If I feel my government has passed a law which was wrong and chose to disobey it I would still expect to be punished for that - and it is right that I would be, if everyone disobeyed laws willy nilly just because they didn't like them the result would be anarchy. Being punished when we do something wrong for the right reasons is part of taking responsibility for our own actions. Frankly if Harry isn't willing to sit detention for breaking a rule in the cause of what is right, then he obviously doesn't feel strongly enough that what he's doing is right, Knowing that he will be punished for doing something might make him think a little harder before rushing in headlong every time. K From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 28 04:03:33 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 04:03:33 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87665 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Blair" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" > wrote: > I'm not even gonna comment. I must try to be nicer. I'd like to > stay on this list. No? Why not? :o) I am not going to be offended if you'll attack my argument, only if you decide to attack me personally. :o) I think fairness should go both sides. Snape is one of my favourites in the books, but he is also the character, which I sadistically enjoy picking up on. :o) Be fair, doesn't Snape refusal to teach Harry's occlumency sounds a little bit suspicious to you? As I said earlier although I understand why Harry went into pensieve, I also think that he was very wrong to do so. So, Snape is a member of the Order, supposedly an honest and trusted one. He knows what kind of risks they may run into with Harry's mind open to Voldemort influence and he still can't get over his old hurts. Despite supposedly being a superb occlumence, he could not control his emotions. They got the best of him. don't you think that it may be foreshadowing of his future? You know, I disagree with the previous poster's choice of words rather strongly, but if you ask for fairness, I'd like to see some fairness from Snape apologists too. :o) For example, I was staring at my computer with disbelief, when I read somebody's post (I think it was Pip, if not, I apologise) that Snape was less at fault for Sirius' death than Harry was. If you tell me that you agree with this statement, I would say that you are not being fair either. > The comment I was replying to was "protecting students". Since there > is no danger of me being cursed off my broom, I used the only thing I > could concievably be in danger of. Was Snape in danger of failing of the broom instead of Harry? He was doing his job. > How do we decide who's rule breaking is allowed and who's is not? I'd say those who are fighting Lordthingy should be allowed to do so. :o) > No one else agreed with me either. How does everyone else > define "child"? Is it just by age? To me, a child is someone who > doesn't understand what is going on around them, cannot do anything > about it, and refuses to do anything about it. Harry was a child > when it started, he hadn't fought anyone. Child is a relative term. > I stand by what I think even if you all seem to think I'm stupid for > thinking it -- I'll deal. > > Oryomai Of course I don't think that you are stupid and it is your right to think so, but I do think that it is another excuse to justify Severus' abuse of Harry and Neville. I will sooner concur with the thought that Severus is stuck at the emotional age of fifteen year old. :o) Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 28 04:09:31 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 04:09:31 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: <004e01c3cd38$8e6cbf20$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87666 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > I agree that Harry is still a child - which is why I dislike the way > Dumbledore tends to not do anything about it when he suspects Harry is about > to do something ridiculously dangerous. Last time I said that someone said > that since the prophecy only said that Harry could defeat Voldemort but not > when he had to let him in case he succeeded in killing him and I didn't get > a chance to reply. I strongly disagree with that - the prophecy says that > Harry can kill Voldemort of Voldemort can kill him (if you interpret it that > way and assume it's definitive truth, which personally I don't), the fact > that it *doesn't* say when means that Dumbledore would be perfectly > However, the fact that Harry is still a child is to me far more of a reason > why Harry should be punished regardless of why he is breaking the rules. He > isn't old enough yet (or at least he wasn't at the beginning of OoP, he > *may* be developing the ability) to distinguish when he has a *good* reason > to break the rules and when breaking the rules simply coincides with what he > wants to do. By letting him get away with it so often Albus is deliberately > or not giving Harry the impression that rules can be broken at will and you > won't get punished for it, or at least you won't if you're Harry Potter. And > worse he may well end up encouraging that idea in the heads of the rest of > the students. I have no problem with Harry being punished despite the fact > he had a good reason for doing the right thing. If I feel my government has > passed a law which was wrong and chose to disobey it I would still expect to > be punished for that - and it is right that I would be, if everyone > disobeyed laws willy nilly just because they didn't like them the result > would be anarchy. Being punished when we do something wrong for the right > reasons is part of taking responsibility for our own actions. Frankly if > Harry isn't willing to sit detention for breaking a rule in the cause of > what is right, then he obviously doesn't feel strongly enough that what he's > doing is right, Knowing that he will be punished for doing something might > make him think a little harder before rushing in headlong every time. > > K I have a huge problem with Harry being punished when he is doing the right thing. Being punished for something wrong for the right reasons is one thing, but Harry was not doing anything wrong when fighting Voldemort - I would say he was breaking the wrong rules to do the right thing. I would rather him not to be fighting and after OoP I agree that Dumbledore manipulates him shamelessly, but if someone was punishing me for tryign to save the world, I would not bother to try and save the world next time. Alla From sam2sar at charter.net Sun Dec 28 04:20:04 2003 From: sam2sar at charter.net (sam2sar) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 04:20:04 -0000 Subject: Neville's family In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87667 I do not think that Neville is adopted because I am pretty sure it is said that he looks like his mom when Harry sees him at the hospital. Sam Mandy wrote: > If Neville though of himself as 'Muggle for ages' it implies he would > have known if he was adopted, if he truly was, and I don't remember > him ever alluding to that in any of the 5 books. From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sun Dec 28 04:26:31 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (Blair) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 04:26:31 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87668 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > No? Why not? :o) I am not going to be offended if you'll attack my > argument, only if you decide to attack me personally. :o) I was kicked off a list for less. > I think fairness should go both sides. Snape is one of my favourites > in the books, but he is also the character, which I sadistically > enjoy picking up on. :o) > > Be fair, doesn't Snape refusal to teach Harry's occlumency sounds a > little bit suspicious to you? > As I said earlier although I understand why Harry went into pensieve, > I also think that he was very wrong to do so. I'm taking the chapter as what it says. Severus stopped teaching Harry Occulmency because Harry looked in the Pensieve. Given Severus' temperment, that doesn't sound out of character, does it? I didn't think there was anything else to it besides his embarassment of his past being shown. Severus probably thinks Harry is going to tell people. Also given his habit to confuse Harry with James, Severus would think that Harry would be amused by it. > So, Snape is a member of the Order, supposedly an honest and trusted > one. He knows what kind of risks they may run into with Harry's mind > open to Voldemort influence and he still can't get over his old > hurts. Despite supposedly being a superb occlumence, he could not > control his emotions. They got the best of him. don't you think that > it may be foreshadowing of his future? I don't think it's fair to ask someone to just "get over" something. Different people hold grudges for different lengths of time. I thought that when Severus was first teaching Harry Occulmency and he yelled about weak people not being able to control their emotions, he was speaking from personal experience. "Emotion, agitation or disturbance of the mind...Vehement or excited mental state. It is also a powerful and irrational master." No one can control their emotions. > You know, I disagree with the previous poster's choice of words > rather strongly, but if you ask for fairness, I'd like to see some > fairness from Snape apologists too. :o) Fairness how? > For example, I was staring at my computer with disbelief, when I read > somebody's post (I think it was Pip, if not, I apologise) that Snape > was less at fault for Sirius' death than Harry was. > If you tell me that you agree with this statement, I would say that > you are not being fair either. I think most of the blame for Sirius' death lies with Dumbledore. I see where Harry's fault lies. But where does Severus'? I'm not being a jerk, I just don't entirely understand how it's his fault. When Harry told him that the Death Eaters had Sirius, Severus went off and alerted the Order, told them where to go, and *asked Sirius to stay behind* (well, I'm sure he didn't ask. I'm sure it was something nasty, but still). What exactly did Severus do? > Was Snape in danger of failing of the broom instead of Harry? He was > doing his job. I actually find it hard to believe that no one else noticed that either of them was muttering. I honestly still don't see how this is his job. > Of course I don't think that you are stupid and it is your right to > think so, but I do think that it is another excuse to justify > Severus' abuse of Harry and Neville. Severus really shouldn't abused Harry and Neville like he does. But someone has to stick up for him! You're much more likely to find a billion people who hate Severus Snape than you are to find a bunch of people who hate Hagrid (I really really really really hate him!!!!). But there are people like Severus in the world outside Hogwarts. I can comprehend why he harasses Harry like he does, but I'm still completely in the dark about why he does it to Neville as well. My defense of Severus is mostly a case of overlooking a person's flaws. The majority of this list does it about their favorite characters. I mean, Remus just sat by while James and Sirius harasses Severus. It's not the general consensus of the list that he is a horrible human being. Hermione called Firenze a horse. She's not obviously a wretched woman. It's not accepted that Sirius is a bad guy because he confuses James with Harry. And Malfoy...well, that's a bad example. Forget I mentioned him. :-D Oryomai From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sun Dec 28 04:44:35 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 23:44:35 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) Message-ID: <155.2a5ce6e5.2d1fb9b3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87669 In a message dated 12/27/2003 11:28:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, Oryomai (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) writes: I'm taking the chapter as what it says. Severus stopped teaching Harry Occulmency because Harry looked in the Pensieve. Given Severus' temperment, that doesn't sound out of character, does it? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sherrie here: Not to mention that it was becoming obvious that it was an utter waste of time, trying to teach Harry something that Harry was making no effort whatever to learn. Yes, Snape overreacted a bit - I'll not say he didn't. But no amount of teaching is going to get a student to learn something he doesn't WANT to learn, doesn't practice, doesn't work at - and Harry didn't do any of the above. And one would think that Snape would have a vested interest in having Harry learn to block the intrusions of Voldemort - what with Harry knowing that Snape is a member of the Order and all... If Snape has returned as a spy (of which I'm honestly not fully convinced), that's not information to which he'd want the Dark Lord privy, if only so that he could go ON spying - and breathing. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 28 04:48:45 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 04:48:45 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87670 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Blair" wrote: > I don't think it's fair to ask someone to just "get over" something. > Different people hold grudges for different lengths of time. I > thought that when Severus was first teaching Harry Occulmency and he > yelled about weak people not being able to control their emotions, he > was speaking from personal experience. "Emotion, agitation or > disturbance of the mind...Vehement or excited mental state. It is > also a powerful and irrational master." No one can control their > emotions. > > I think most of the blame for Sirius' death lies with Dumbledore. I > see where Harry's fault lies. But where does Severus'? I'm not > being a jerk, I just don't entirely understand how it's his fault. > When Harry told him that the Death Eaters had Sirius, Severus went > off and alerted the Order, told them where to go, and *asked Sirius > to stay behind* (well, I'm sure he didn't ask. I'm sure it was > something nasty, but still). What exactly did Severus do? > No, it is usually not fair to ask someone just to get over something and that is why you get no argument from me on the fact that if I were to apportion blame for Sirius' death, Dumbledore will take a large lead on my list. He should have not asked Snape to teach Harry occlumency, but ... he did. At the times of war, I think it is fair to expect from the adult to get over his old wounds, when teaching the child, who is Light's best chance to win this war. When I was talking about Severus' blame in Sirius' death I only meant his refusal to continue lessons. I just think that Harry is very last person to blame for Sirius death, even though he sure could be blamed a little bit, but all adults in the Order should be put higher on such list. > Severus really shouldn't abused Harry and Neville like he does. But > someone has to stick up for him! You're much more likely to find a > billion people who hate Severus Snape than you are to find a bunch of > people who hate Hagrid (I really really really really hate him!!!!). > But there are people like Severus in the world outside Hogwarts. I > can comprehend why he harasses Harry like he does, but I'm still > completely in the dark about why he does it to Neville as well. > > My defense of Severus is mostly a case of overlooking a person's > flaws. The majority of this list does it about their favorite > characters. I mean, Remus just sat by while James and Sirius > harasses Severus. It's not the general consensus of the list that he > is a horrible human being. Hermione called Firenze a horse. She's > not obviously a wretched woman. It's not accepted that Sirius is a > bad guy because he confuses James with Harry. And Malfoy...well, > that's a bad example. Forget I mentioned him. :-D > > Oryomai Thank you! That is all I wanted to hear from you - that Snape should not have done what he does. I am not asking you to stop defending your favourite at all. :o) I am just asking you to acknowledge the blame, where it is due. :) You don't have to justify anything to me, but no matter how passionate we get, I would give more respect to the argument, which defends the character without sugarcoating his faults. By the way, I don't hate hagrid, but I absolutely don't care for him. :o) Thanks for the conversation and I hope you'll feel better. I am going to bed. Alla From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 28 13:57:32 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 05:57:32 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) References: Message-ID: <001001c3cd4a$8a8dd210$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87671 Alla > > When I was talking about Severus' blame in Sirius' death I only meant > his refusal to continue lessons. > > I just think that Harry is very last person to blame for Sirius > death, even though he sure could be blamed a little bit, but all > adults in the Order should be put higher on such list. > > > K I think that the halting of the lessons made no real difference at all and Snape would have been able to see that. Harry wouldn't have learnt whether the lessons continued or not because he thought that the visions were important and he wanted to keep having them. He didn't want to learn and did none of the practice that he was set. Harry wasn't going to learn no matter what - because he had no idea why he should. I agree with your comments about Harry. Harry made the best decision possible given the situation as he understood it - and that's all anyone can be expected to do. The reason he didn't understand the true situation is the same reason he didn't try in his lessons - he was being kept completely in the dark. Despite my comments earlier about Harry being a child - he isn't a baby. He is a reasonably intelligent teenager and it seems odd to me that many of the adults want to treat him like a baby while still putting the weight of having to save the world on his shoulders. No teenager has ever existed who takes 'because I told you to' or 'just do it' as valid reasons for doing *anything*. Dumbledore's been a headmaster for decades and a teacher since at the very least the 1940s - surely he must have learnt *something* about children in this time? I would be quite amused if Sirius came back as a ghost purely to take Molly aside and say 'I told you we should tell him!' :) K From sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 28 08:14:53 2003 From: sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk (sachmet96) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 08:14:53 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: <000a01c3ccc6$9696c500$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87672 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mom31" wrote: > > Ces said: > > I have to totally disagree with you on that point...it was Snape > who was the wronged one in SS because Harry decided his guilt with > little evidence and then never apologized to Snape for thinking he > was the one trying to kill him. Harry owed Snape at least a thank > you for saving his life at Quiddich. > > > > Joj: > How exactly was Snape hurt by Harry thinking Snape was trying to kill him? Except for the pensive, Harry has never hurt Snape. Snape hurts Harry all the time. Why would Harry thank Snape, the man who goes out of his way to make his life a living hell, and would do worse if he could get away with it? Snape would laugh in his face, or deny it, or hate him even more. Why should Harry? > sachmet96: But Harry and the others have hurt Snape. They attacked him in the Shrieking Shack which left him unconscious, banged his head against the ceiling. I would consider that as hurting someone? And he never was punished or apologised. I don't agree with Snapes behaviour toward his students (though I myself prefer teachers who don't coddle students) but he has reason enough to not like Harry. I don't think Harry should apologise as he most likely wouldn't mean it anyway, but he should be punished for his behaviour (not only towards Snape), because he gets away with rule breaking too easily (he used an unforgivable, was in the Forbidden Forest, left the school grounds, in PS/SS he also went to places he shouldn't have been and it's no excuse that through pure luck he managed to do something positive like saving the stone, stealing, the list goes on and on). sachmet96 (who thinks it's unfair that Harry gets away with so much and who thinks that Snape could try to be a little more considerate) From belijako at online.no Sun Dec 28 11:45:16 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 11:45:16 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87673 "Blair" wrote: I don't expect any of my teachers to take a bullet for > > me. Alla wrote: Please, please refer me to the incident where Snape took a bullet for Harry or at least ATTEMPTED to do so. ( I do understand that it was a metaphor :o)) Berit replies: Here's a direct reference from canon where Snape "took a bullet" for Harry: Quote: "'Snape was trying to save me?' 'Of course,' said Quirrel coolly. 'Why do you think he wanted to referee your next match? He was trying to make sure I dodn't do it again... All the other teachers thought Snape was trying to stop Gryffindor winning, he DID make himself unpopular...'" (PS p. 209 UK Ed). Snape was willing to make himself unpopular to keep Harry safe... I think this shows a remarkable strength of character and also something that might look like "noblemindedness" (I'm not sure it is since we don't know what's making him protect Harry)... Anyway, it's the reason why I am intrigued by this character despite his dark side. I catch myself wishing his "redeemable traits" will eventually prevail over his darker side. I feel Snape deserves to evolve into a nicer character. I admit it; I've grown fond of him :-) Berit http:home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Dec 28 16:02:23 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 28 Dec 2003 16:02:23 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1072627343.31.53074.m3@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87674 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, December 28, 2003 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CST (GMT-06:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. *Chat times are not changing for Daylight Saving/Summer Time.* Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From editor at texas.net Sun Dec 28 16:21:56 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 10:21:56 -0600 Subject: Whoa Nelly! Lots of Snape, was Harry in NEWT Potions Class? References: Message-ID: <001f01c3cd5e$b7901980$e958aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 87675 [cobwebby door creaks, and an Ancient Snapologist crawls out, straightens up, wipes cobwebs off hair] My, my. I heard all the noise out here. What a happening Snape thread! I don't have much time, so I am *gasp* combining posts (pick yourselves up off the floor, you other oldies). Let's see... Fred waldrop: >I don't know, if Snape would have came out to the forest > to let Harry know that Sirius was OK, Harry would not have went to > the MOM. But Snape was in the school probably thinking "hahaha, you > don't know if your godfather is alive or dead, and that is fine by > me, you filthy little...." So, in a way it is Snape's fault. If he > would have gone and told Harry that Sirius was home and OK, Sirius > would still be alive. Amanda: Okay, I'd like to do some timeline-ing here. It will be quick and dirty as I flip through the book, corrections invited. But it seems to me that this episode has as much potential for misinterpretation as the Shrieking Shack, in terms of what Snape does and where he is and what he knows at which time. --Harry is in exams and has his vision. --He gathers Ron & Hermione and explains. --He works out a plan Hermione can live with. --Ginny & Luna show up, involve themselves. --They go off to use the fireplace in Umbridge's office. --Harry talks to Kreacher, who lies and says Sirius has gone to the Ministry. --Harry et al. are caught and all are in Umbridge's office. Neville is one of the group now. --Snape is summoned. --Harry does his best to tell Snape what is going on. --Snape leaves. He has understood, but cannot reveal this in any way to Harry, as they are in front of Umbridge. Simultaneous: --Harry & Hermione bamboozle Umbridge and get her into the forest. Snape checks with Sirius to see where he is and if he's in danger; finds him to be safe. --Centaurs deal with Umbridge, about to deal with Harry & Hermione, Grawp's appearance intercedes. --Harry & Hermione joined by Neville, Ginny, Ron, and Luna, who *also* apparently don't have the sense God gave a brass doorknob, as they *also* have not gone to the only Order member, Snape, instead of following Harry & Hermione into the forest. --They get onto thestrals and fly to London. --Sometime in the interval above, while everyone is still in the forest: Snape becomes concerned when Harry and Hermione do not come back out: "When, however, you did not return from your trip into the forest with Dolores Umbridge, Professor Snape grew worried that you still believed Sirius to be a captive of Lord Voldemort's. He alerted certain Order members at once." (OoP, 830 [US]). --Sometime in this interval is when Harry et al. land in London and enter the Ministry, and begin their explorations. --The Order members Snape contacted made up a party and went to the Ministry. Sirius ignored Snape's request to stay and inform Dumbledore when he arrived, and went with them. --While Harry et al. are in the Ministry, and the Order members are going to their aid, is the time that Snape went into the forest to search for Harry and Hermione, for he did this after he alerted the Order members. [Canon does not say when he came back out, or what he found there; we do know he did *not* find Dolores Umbridge, but I personally can't blame him for not looking for her real hard.] So. Snape was clearly aware that Harry and Hermione had gone into the forest with Umbridge. The fact that he became concerned when they failed to come back out, tells me he was waiting for them to, and watching for them. Snape also knows that Harry's broomstick is in the dungeon, and I don't think anyone could reasonably have expected that Harry would find *another* way to fly to London. It was a quite reasonable thing, in my opinion, for him to be waiting for them to come back out, rather than chasing into the forest where it's an even bet of even finding them, just to reassure Harry. That's out of character. Snape need not have any malicious intent to have done just as he did; he's totally in character to do what he sees as needful and wait for developments--which is what he did. Alla: Be fair, doesn't Snape refusal to teach Harry's occlumency sounds a little bit suspicious to you? As I said earlier although I understand why Harry went into pensieve, I also think that he was very wrong to do so. So, Snape is a member of the Order, supposedly an honest and trusted one. He knows what kind of risks they may run into with Harry's mind open to Voldemort influence and he still can't get over his old hurts. Despite supposedly being a superb occlumence, he could not control his emotions. They got the best of him. don't you think that it may be foreshadowing of his future? Amanda: I think Snape has several reasons for not continuing to teach Harry. Look at them, though, from the perspective of one who must stand and face Voldemort and lie to him. One, surely, is that his hatred of James is too strong. That hatred is spilling over on to Harry, understandably. But the *specific memory* of the deepest reasons for the hatred are spilling over onto Harry now, via this Pensieve incident. This will make it more difficult, I'd think, to keep James-connected hatred/incidents and Harry-connected hatred/incidents separate--which I believe Snape must be able to do in order to successfully "shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie." Harry knowing about all this, could endanger Snape's ability to successfully lie to Voldemort. Which, I'll admit, Snape probably seized on as a great excuse because he is still so pissed off at James. That doesn't mean it may not be valid in itself. Okay, two. Snape has already as much as told Harry that he [Snape] spies on Voldemort. Further deep explorations with a boy about whom Voldemort is likely to be very concerned and want more information on, may also endanger Snape's role as a spy, by putting dangerous revelations into memories that Snape must let closer to the surface in speaking to Voldemort. And, edging now into how Snape would have received an apology from Harry, fo r any of what I believe are *several* instances where one is warranted: I believe Snape would have received him poorly. Or at least, Harry would have thought so. For I believe that Snape's entire modus operandi has been a deliberate effort to maintain his attitudes, in preparation for this current state where he is in Voldemort's circle again. Snape must keep his feelings about certain people, his memories, consistent in order to facilitate his use of Occlumency to lie to Voldemort. He must possess true memories of favoring Draco. He must possess true memories of hating Harry. The emotions attached to those individuals and those memories must be accurate; and so Snape has never made any attempt to alter those; has ignored oppportunities to recognize other motives in Harry than he ascribes, etc. Snape cannot let himself change his opinions of these two--or more accurately, he cannot allow himself to build up emotions or memories where they are concerned that would invalidate the face he presents to Voldemort. We already know that the plan put into motion at the end of GoF, for which Snape was "ready" and "prepared," is one of long standing. Snape and Dumbledore both know exactly what they are talking about, what is being asked of Snape. So I submit that a lot--NOT all--of Snape's behavior towards Harry and Draco is deliberate, in preparation for being able to successfully lie to Voldemort via Occlumency. [I'm absolutely certain that Snape's past makes this pattern *easy* to facilitate; but I do believe that he made a conscious decision to do this, as well.] I also think this is why Snape never eats at Sirius' house. He can't afford to have a memory of liking these people, eating with them, in any setting where his mind may relax. I think he probably has all his planning conversations with Dumbledore, and debriefs the Order, in the same place (where he can control the memory of it) and after some mental preparations (where he can control the emotions of it). Alla again: For example, I was staring at my computer with disbelief, when I read somebody's post (I think it was Pip, if not, I apologise) that Snape was less at fault for Sirius' death than Harry was. If you tell me that you agree with this statement, I would say that you are not being fair either. Amanda: Okay, I don't agree with it. If you're talking *intent,* I think nobody is to blame. Except maybe Sirius for ignoring Snape's request and charging off with the rest of them--which wasn't malicious and was totally understandable, but still was stupid. If you're talking whose actions brought it about? Intent aside? Just who did what that caused what? I would have to say Harry. He had not understood what he'd been told about the link between himself and Voldemort, and so when Voldemort began to use it, he was unprepared; he ignored Hermione's reasoning; he forgot Snape was an Order resource; after he remembered, he didn't go back and *get* Snape, but instead, charged off to London and required rescuing. All Snape did was respond to the information he'd been given; alert the Order when it became apparent that there was a chance Harry had gone to the Ministry; and search the forest in case Harry hadn't gone, and was still out there. I think Harry was having a terrible time coming to grips with the fact that it was his misjudgement that led to all this. I think he focused on Snape as a scapegoat, to avoid having to realize it. I also think he will have to accept it, as he matures, but it's a bit early in the grieving process to expect that yet and his blaming Snape is almost inevitable. Okay, now my take on the subject line: I think Harry's days of Potions under Snape are over. I think he won't have made NEWT grade (or at least not to Snape's satisfaction). I do think Harry will pursue the career of being an Auror, though. So, what I predict: Dumbledore will finally give the DADA job to Snape. He will do this because Educational Decree 22 will not have been repealed, and he can find nobody else, and Fudge has not *quite* learned his lesson enough, and there's some massively unsuitable candidate Fudge could appoint. Dumbledore will decide it's worth risking Snape as DADA teacher to keep this other candidate *out* of Hogwarts. Harry must continue to interact with Snape, for plot reasons. JKR has already been brilliant in the mechanism she invented to make them know each other much better, while getting no closer at all. I think DADA is a perfect venue for this to continue. Also, Snape is one of Harry's principal father figures, and this relationship must continue to develop. Which I think it is--Snape and Harry's conceptions of each other are changing, from GoF and that look over the ending feast, to their interactions in OoP. I think this will continue in the next book(s), and DADA is a logical place, for here Snape has more experience but no more skill than Harry (unlike Potions). There is more room for the logical direction of a father-son relationship to develop, in DADA. Harry must continue in Potions to be an Auror, but I think Snape won't accept the grade he probably got. Another Potions teacher may, though; and so I think there will be another one. Okay, I think there were more points I wanted to hit, but that'll do for now. Fire away. ~Amanda, premier Snapologist, still a bit cobwebby From teshara at yahoo.com Sat Dec 27 08:03:33 2003 From: teshara at yahoo.com (Chelle) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 08:03:33 -0000 Subject: Question: Katie Bells age and the next quidditch captain In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87676 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > Now I'm not saying I lose sleep at night thinking neither Harry nor > Ron will be the captain in Book 6, but PLEEEEASE HELP ANYBODY!!!! I would think the most qualified person would be captain. Not to shirk off Katie, but I've never seen her planning plays or discussing tactics like the boys do. I don't remember the three girls being in the same class, but I always thought it was Alicia who was younger. ~ Chelle From crystalgazer1776 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 27 19:06:17 2003 From: crystalgazer1776 at yahoo.com (Kristin Harris) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 11:06:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 8, The Hearing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031227190617.35626.qmail@web40210.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87677 Berit wrote: > Good point :-) I don't know. One explanation could be that squibs > know there exists a magical world and therefore have > more "practise" in seeing things Muggles don't. I am a little lost. Where does it say that only magic people can see Dementors? Maybe I missed it. "Kristin" From karenreiduk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 28 02:48:36 2003 From: karenreiduk at yahoo.co.uk (karenreiduk) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 02:48:36 -0000 Subject: Just suppose Snape is at the heart of it all Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87678 Talisman and Smtopliff posted a couple of really interesting HPFGU topics in 2003. They really got me thinking. We know for a fact that Snape was a trusted Death Eater because he has the Dark Mark. We also know that Snape became a Hogwarts Professor after Harry was born because Harry overheard him telling Umbridge of his 14 years of service during her inspection of Harry's 5th year potions class. What we don't know is why he switched sides, or exactly when. Just suppose... Snape was the eavesdropper at the Hog's Head during Trelawney's prophecy. He only hears "the one with the power" and "born to those who defied him" and "as the seventh month dies". He is thrown out before the "dark lord will mark him" and "power the dark lord knows not" and "neither can live" lines. Snape assumes the part-heard prophecy is about a soon-to-be-born vanquisher. He reports back to Voldemort and is promoted to the role of Voldemort's #1 trusted DE. Voldemort hatches his Herod-like plan (we know that the prophecy was overheard before Harry was born in July and that Voldemort doesn't visit Godrick's Hollow until Halloween which was 3 months later). Just suppose that the reason Snape deserts Voldemort is because he is devastated when he realises that the Potter's new born will be under attack ? Snape owes James a life-debt for being saved from The Prank. He turns to Dumbledore. Snape reveals Voldemort's plan and admits he was an eavesdropper to the prophecy. Dumbledore expresses concern about Snape's future safety as a turncoat DE. He urges Snape to learn Occlumency to disguise his "rebirth" from Voldemort. Thus also enabling Snape to go back into Voldemort's inner circle and work as an undercover spy for The Order. By switching allegiance and going back in to spy on Voldemort Snape was earning DDs unwavering trust. Dumbledore considers this new information and consults his pensive memory of the full prophecy. He is now equipped to interpret it as follows:- "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches " (He interprets this as tip-toeing-up-to-eavesdrop-at-the-door- "approaches" not soon-to-be-born-"approaches".) "Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies " (He interprets this as an individual re-born to a cause, not a child born to parents.) "The Dark Lord will mark him as his equal " (He interprets this literally. Snape is the only member of The Order chosen by Voldemort to wear his dark mark.) "But he will have power the Dark Lord knows not " (He relates this to Snape becoming an accomplished Occlumens and using the power to thwart Voldemort. The Dark Lord still knows nothing of this power 15 years later in Book 5.) Dumbledore realises that the prophecy is not about Harry or Neville or any other child born at the end of July. The prophecy is about Snape. But Voldemort doesn't know that. Dumbledore decides to use the kids as decoys while he sets about orchestrating a big standoff between Snape and Voldemort. In the meantime he sends the Potters and the Longbottoms into hiding and arranges fidelius charms and secret keepers. In his real life game of wizards chess he didn't factor in the Wormtail equation. Voldemort turns up at Godrick's Hollow. James tries to head him off downstairs while Lily performs a love/protection/impervious spell on Harry involving a rune symbol. Voldemort kills James, then Lily. His AK strikes Harry but is deflected by the protection spell. Harry's scar is not the result of the rebounded curse but a rune symbol that was the reason the curse rebounded in the first place. Voldemort is vapour. And Harry is the boy that lived. Dumbledore had been caught flat-footed and is left with the fallout at the Potters and the Longbottoms. Voldemort isn't dead. He could come back. If he comes back he'll be after the now orphaned Harry. So Harry is packed off to the Dursleys with the blood protection. Snape is left temporarily impotent but remains a kill or be killed time bomb. Dumbledore has to keep him close, and keep him safe just incase Voldemort ever comes back, but no one can ever know that Snape is the true hero. Snape starts work at Hogwarts but has to keep up the pretence of cow towing to the establishment just like his old DE friends (Malfoy etc). He wants the DADA professorship, but DD holds his dark past against him. They sit back and wait. Harry starts Hogwarts untainted by his fame and puzzled by Snape's obvious resentment of it. Snape is the rightful champion of the story, living under the cloud of his fate with no option but to sit back while "The Boy That Lived" steals his limelight. Hence the frequent venting of spite and sarcasm at Harry's expense. Voldemort makes his first appearance during Harry's first year at Hogwarts and Dumbledore has all his wizards chess pieces in place. They remain in place and working nicely (other than the occasional inconvenient interference from the remaining Marauders) to this day. Harry is currently back with the Dursleys waiting to start his sixth year at Hogwarts where he will reprise his role of decoy- extraordinaire. Luckily for Dumbledore Harry doesn't ask too many questions and any that he does ask are easily explained by a mother's love. Dumbledore isn't really lying, just withholding vital information. Just suppose that Snape is at the heart of it all that JKR spoke of to Jeremy Paxman at the release of The Order of the Phoenix. I concede this theory package requires a certain amount of cannon elasticity. But just suppose... From mommystery at hotmail.com Sun Dec 28 11:55:45 2003 From: mommystery at hotmail.com (mommystery2003) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 11:55:45 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87679 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, wrote: How exactly was Snape hurt by Harry thinking Snape was trying to kill him? sachmet96: But Harry and the others have hurt Snape. They attacked him in the Shrieking Shack which left him unconscious, banged his head against the ceiling. Joj, I said Snape was wronged in that point, not that he was hurt at that point...and Snape did save Harry because if he had not been saying the counter curse Harry would have fallen and seriously hurt himself. I agree with what you said sachmet96 - you stated it very clearly... I'm not at all saying Snape is innocent in all this - yes his behavior towards Harry and others leaves a lot to be desired, but Harry is not blameless in his and Snape's relationship. Ces From mommystery at hotmail.com Sun Dec 28 12:29:36 2003 From: mommystery at hotmail.com (mommystery2003) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 12:29:36 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: <001001c3cd4a$8a8dd210$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87680 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" The reason he didn't understand the true situation is the > same reason he didn't try in his lessons - he was being kept completely in the dark. But who was keeping him in the dark? We know Snape was, yes, but on whose orders? Was in Dumbledore who told Snape to just give Harry the bare minimum information? Again, the problem with the books is we don't see what goes on outside Harry's perspective!! Snape gets the blame for the occulmeny lessons going bad, but maybe he's just following Dumbledore's orders; we probably won't know until book 7. And remember, even Hermione tried to get Harry to do his homework, but Harry, in his hatred of Snape, won't do it. Yes, Harry is not an adult yet, but like I tell my daughter, if you want to be treated as more than a child, then start acting like one, and sometimes, that means following the rules adults set for you. Ces From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Sun Dec 28 13:03:24 2003 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne Dragon) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 07:03:24 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) References: Message-ID: <000601c3cd42$fa4d2040$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 87681 "Blair" wrote: I don't expect any of my teachers to take a bullet for > > me. Alla wrote: Please, please refer me to the incident where Snape took a bullet for Harry or at least ATTEMPTED to do so. ( I do understand that it was a metaphor :o)) Berit replies: Here's a direct reference from canon where Snape "took a bullet" for Harry: Quote: "'Snape was trying to save me?' 'Of course,' said Quirrel coolly. 'Why do you think he wanted to referee your next match? He was trying to make sure I dodn't do it again... All the other teachers thought Snape was trying to stop Gryffindor winning, he DID make himself unpopular...'" (PS p. 209 UK Ed). Snape was willing to make himself unpopular to keep Harry safe Anne Says: Also, Snape is taking one huge bullet for *everyone* by spying on the Death Eaters (And Harry would be included in that). What do you think will happen to him if he's found out? Nothing pretty, I assure you (and yes, I am aware that he may be double dealing Dumbledore, but let's go with what Rowling has kindly provided us so far and assume Snape *is* a good guy...). Keep in mind as well that Harry's judgement (Which, since we see most of the books from his POV--both directly and indirectly, which will also affect how *we* see Snape), of Snape was always colored by assupmtions on Harry's part: Percy tells him Snape was always after the DADA job, so the guy is obviously bad news. He **looks** bad--sallow skin, bad teeth, greasy hair--which, along with him 'swooping about like a giant bat--doesn't help his visual image any either. And Harry and others fall right for it (including the readers), right up until we find Quirrel down by the mirror. Harry's only assumption for Snape to 'pick' on him is because Snape hates him--ignoring the fact that there are actually lessons in each of those incidents. The potions class--'Fame isn't everything' (IE: You may be who you are, but you need to learn more than to bask in the attention of others in order to get by); end of year "Be careful, people will think your up to something' (And since most of us know by now that Snape has Leglimens--he may very well have been tryiong to warn Harry to be careful since he could probably figure out what the boy was up to, and that he wouldn't likely quit--much like his dear old dad); The whole flying car incident (Think about what would happen if the Muggles latched onto that one and actively started searching for that car...then the wizards, then the wizarding world...witch burning, anyone?), Having Ron and Harry take care of Malfoy's ingredients while he was 'injured' (Lesson here if you care to learn--sometimes you will HAVE to deal with people you don't like while doing your job, no matter your reason for hating them, or how much of a pain in the ass they happen to be). And then, the biggest one, which Harry basis his sudden *real* hate for Snape on was the assumption that Snape ignored his plees about Sirius being in trouble while they were in Umbridge's office. The biggets lesson there--you cannot ALWAYS expect others to bail you out, cannot expect to have things happen your faovr immedaitely all the time, and sometimes, it is better to keep your mouth shut in front of certain people, no matter how dire the situation. As for Sirius's death, well, the guy left his protective home...went out and did battle. You take a chance when you do that. Snape had nothing to do with that, and yet, according to Harry, it is all his fault. Yeah, Snape's way of pointing things out is a bit harsh, but when in your first class with some kid--especially the offspring on a fellow schoolmate you KNEW would cause you trouble every day mouths back out you--isn't that just wonderful...? Another 11 years of it--and this from a kid that could have been Snape's own son age wise. I agree that he is harsh, and there is no real *excuse* for his behaivior towards Harry (although it seems, honestly enough, that MOST of Rowlings adults have a bit of immaturity to them--Sirius seems to have had the same fault--even to the point of calling Snape "Snivellus" even now and goading him into conflict. Why isn't anyone mad at HIM for it? Because the target is older? It;s STILL wrong, and shows that Sirius, quite frankly, was and still is as much of a bully as everyone takes Severus to be). But she DOES have the pattern of abused-child-turned-adult down well. I should know--I'm one of those adults. And let me tell you, it can be very hard to keep from being even 'unknowingly' snarky to people--because, quite frankly, I learned when I was a kid that people are mean and cruel before I learned they can be nice, and therefor learned to 'protect myself' first--which often meant driving off people who were trying to hurt me (even, if in my confused child's mind, I couldn't see that they weren't trying to hurt me). Fortunately for me, I was rescued from one side of my family by the other when I was twelve....I got a chance to see a 'normal', non-abusive family in action and learn from it--something Snape never had. Let me tell you though...it took me over a year living in my new circumstances to believe people weren't out to get me and start to make real friends, even with my dad's family helping me out. Snape has never had that help...not really. Some of his treatment may be 'unexcusable' to the normal, everyday person, but it is understandable to someone who has lived through something similar. Also, let me tell you...although having someone take verbal potshots at you is a pain, no matter who does it, it's not abuse. Abuse is when they have you, mentally torment you until you believe whatever they say (Usually along the lines of 'You;re horrid, you'll amount to nothing, you're useless, clumsy, stupid," etc), and physcially beat you, often for something as simple as missing a spot on a pan when you washed it (And yes, I've had that sort of incident happen to me--repeatedly--as a child). Snape my be vindictive, perhaps he gives Harry (and Neville) a little too much credit for being able to handle a direct (Although Harry seems to do quite well on that count--no matter WHAT Snape does, it slips off Harry like he was coated with teflon), no frills reaction to his antics, but he is NOT abusive. He *is*, however, giving Harry hard and fast lessons on what he can expect from his enemies once he stops being "Harry the Boy" and becomes "Harry the young man who will defeat Voldemort". Now if only Harry would LISTEN to that for once... Anne, Who knows that it's hard to understand Severus, but thinks folks have him all wrong. From katrina at lisoneil.fsnet.co.uk Sun Dec 28 14:26:04 2003 From: katrina at lisoneil.fsnet.co.uk (Kat Armstrong) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 14:26:04 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Another question for somebody in England (cost of stamps) In-Reply-To: <3d.390125bd.2d1cb488@aol.com> References: <3d.390125bd.2d1cb488@aol.com> Message-ID: <1277343575.20031228142604@lisoneil.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 87682 Thursday, December 25, 2003, 9:45:44 PM p> Well in the United States a stamp is 37 cents but I do not know what it will p> cost to cover an entire envelope and I am clueless on the England version of p> postage value. In the UK you can buy stamps in lots of different denominations from 1p upwards, so it would be perfectly possible to cover the envelope in stamps for less than 1. Most common stamps are 1st class and 2nd class stamps which are (I think) 27p and 21p but those values could be wrong - I post anything that needs posting through work and they use a franking machine. HTH -- Kat From aiphmmw at yahoo.com Sun Dec 28 15:49:09 2003 From: aiphmmw at yahoo.com (Nicole) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 15:49:09 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87683 Alla said: See, to me Harry always be the wronged one and innocent one in their relationship and whatever mistakes he made are nothing in comparison to emotional abuse Snape put him through and continues put him through. I think Daniel Radcliffe addressed this the best. On danradcliffe.com they asked him 100 questions and one was particularly relevant to this conversation.:Dan, if you could write yourself two letters and send one to yourself five years ago and one to yourself five years from now, what would you say? DR:The letter I would write to myself 5 years ago, when I was nine, would be concerning a teacher in my school who was horrible to me at that time. I would tell myself to ignore him, don't rise to his petty comments and to have more confidence in myself, even though this teacher is trying to drain me of it. I think he makes an excellent point that his alter ego would have benefitted from heeding. Yes Snape had instant dislike for Harry the moment he set foot in his classroom. My question here is: Was Dumbledore the only one besides Hagrid and McGonagall that knew how awful the Dursleys were? Harry was the farthest thing from spoiled and didn't even know how much of a "celebrity" he was. Harry tried to contain his dislike but he kept seeing evidence that Snape was the villain in SS. I.E. jinxing his broom. My comment here: Sure the point is made by Hagrid in the book that it would take a bit of dark magic a student couldn't perform to create such a wild ride for Harry.....Hermione anyone (not saying she is a dark witch but is advanced for her age) Even if Snape was not aware that Quirrell was the one doing it....as a teacher it is his job to protect the students whether it be Draco or Harry, and regardless of the fact that he detests one of them. I went to Public School in the U.S. and I can tell you that I had quite a few teachers that Snape reminds me of. When I first started in 7th grade I had a particularly nasty teacher who was the female version of Snape. Let's just say she goaded me and I ended up going home everyday with bloody knuckles from her ruler (forgot to mention that corporal punishment was still allowed, and she had come from teaching at a Catholic school, and she was a Nun.). For the nest two years I learned to ignore her attempts to spur me on. I was so happy when I went to High School because I would never have to see her again. Well lo and behold she took a job at my high school as the AP English teacher. When I was a Senior I went to her and asked her what made her dislike me so, it turned out she had taught my cousin Sherry (who I resemble quite a bit)and Sherry had done cruel things to her when she taught at the Catholic High School. We buried the hatchett and she apoligized for treating me so unfairly, and I apoligized for rising to the many occasions. The point here: I didn't lose face in confronting her, she was able to gracefully apologize, and she became one of my favorite teachers. I think it came with the maturity I had obtained by the time I turned 17. Wow what a coincidence.....if I was a witch I would have been of legal age at that time :) -Nicole Who is sorry if she rambled on for a long time, or offended any of the people who have seemed to get a little heated in this conversation. p.s. I like Snape and Harry for different reasons :) From aiphmmw at yahoo.com Sun Dec 28 15:55:52 2003 From: aiphmmw at yahoo.com (Nicole) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 15:55:52 -0000 Subject: Neville's family In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87684 > Mandy wrote: > > If Neville though of himself as 'Muggle for ages' it implies he > would > > have known if he was adopted, if he truly was, and I don't > remember > > him ever alluding to that in any of the 5 books. In the Chapter entitled The Woes of Mrs. Weasley OOTP us pg 173: Harry's stomach already uncomfortable, clenched as it looked at Alice Longbottom:he knew her round, friendly face very well, even though he had never met her, because she was the image of her son, Neville. Nicole From aiphmmw at yahoo.com Sun Dec 28 16:08:17 2003 From: aiphmmw at yahoo.com (Nicole) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 16:08:17 -0000 Subject: Further evidence the wand makes the man. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87685 I have in the past hypothisized that Neville's spell-casting ability, or lack thereof, was directly related to the fact that he was using someone else's wand. I was re-reading the SS for about the 800th time last night and came upon something interesting: SS US page 100 Ron says :"I've got Bill's old robes, Charlie's old wand, and Percy's old rat." He had difficulty in his first year, and no doubt his second because his wand was damaged. My point here is this: after he received his new wand, his "own" wand his ability to use it improved. Nicole Who is using this post to only further the notion that Neville is indeed a wizard, and may turn out to be a thumpin good one. From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 28 16:04:24 2003 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 16:04:24 -0000 Subject: The Great Humberto Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87686 There was a rather good magician called, I think, The Great Stupendo, who used to appear quite often on English TV about the time the first book was published. But as he was obviously a muggle who was good at tricks, rather than a genuine wizard, I don't think Vernon would have minded Dudley watching him. Anyway, can you imagine Vernon or anyone else actually stopping Dudley from watching whatever he wanted to? Sylvia (who is afraid the Dudleys of this world are increasing). From ldyisabella at hotmail.com Sun Dec 28 14:35:14 2003 From: ldyisabella at hotmail.com (Julie Stevenson) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 09:35:14 -0500 Subject: The Great Humberto Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87687 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: >One thing that puzzles me upon reading SS is the Great Humberto. Dudley >fusses about missing the show of that name when they are running about >trying to avoid Harry's Hogwarts letters. Upon first reading, I had >assumed that the Great Humberto was a magician, along the lines of the >Great Houdini. The only other option that comes into my head would be that >of a superhero, but that sounds a bit corny. > >Given Vernon's attitude towards magic, imagination, and things of that >nature, would he even allow Dudders to watch such a program? Sure, Dudley >is spoilt rotten, but he must have some limits. I can see Vernon drawing >the line on this one for fear that it may give Harry, if not Dudley, >"ideas". > >So, Good Brits, *is* (or was)there an actual show called the Great >Humberto? If not, what type would it be? Magic? Superhero? Something >else? The other modern pop-culture thing that 'The Great Humberto' reminds me of is the name of a pro-wrestler, and that is certainly something that Dudlley might very well enjoy watching, and Vernon & Petunia wouldn't dissuade him from watching it, either. Not being British myself, however, I didn't know if professional wrestling (say, along the lines of the WWF) was at all something that might be found in the UK in the early 1990s. I did a little Internet research and came up with an obituary for a very prominent British wrestling television commentator named Kent Walton (http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2003/08/28/171214.html) which includes the quote: "At its peak, wrestling in England reached 12 million viewers, including the Queen, Margaret Thatcher (who once asked Big Daddy for six signed photographs), and The Duke of Edinburgh." I could also find evidence that the WWF was having 'WWF UK Rampage' tours of pro wrestlers fighting in various locations in the British Isles annunally from 1989 through this year at http://www.100megsfree4.com/wiawrestling/pages/wwf/wwfukppv.htm In any case, that's my theory on who 'The Great Humberto' is. -- Julie _________________________________________________________________ Enjoy a special introductory offer for dial-up Internet access limited time only! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup From mommystery at hotmail.com Sun Dec 28 12:18:47 2003 From: mommystery at hotmail.com (mommystery2003) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 12:18:47 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87688 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Thank you! That is all I wanted to hear from you - that Snape should not have done what he does. Snape should not have done what he did, and definitely needs to learn some people skills! However, Black's death does not lie with him and Harry needs to be told that quickly and if he confronts Snape about it needs to be set straight...part of the blame must go to Black himself, who ran off to the MOM and tried to save the day instead of sitting tight like Dumbledore told him to do. Again, I have to stress that we are only seeing things through Harry's perspective so we don't know what Snape did after Harry told him of his vision. The other point I think is important is that in the whomping willow incident, Black almost sent two people to their deaths - Snape and Lupin. Lupin would have been put down for sure if he had killed a student, no matter who it was. Did Black think that far out? No, his only concern was to get back at Snape for spying on the Marauders. And no, we don't know what punishment Black received for that, but that definitely warranted more than a detention or two in my book...at the very least he would have owed both Snape and Lupin an apology...but I bet Lupin got one... Ces From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun Dec 28 03:22:09 2003 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 03:22:09 -0000 Subject: Snape and Harry (was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry in NEWT Potions Class?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87689 Meri wrote: > Yes, but even if Harry can see beyond his own idiocy (after all, he > hated Snape so much in OotP that he completely forgot that old > Severus was a member of the order) and musters up the courage (a lot > of which he will need) to apologize to Snape, does anyone out there > honestly think that Snape will accept it? Actually, I think that reconciliation between Harry and Snape is now more probable than ever. Now they both had glimpses of each other's childhood memories and they both know that the other was also an abused child. So once all the smoke and rubble settle down, they will actually be able to empathize with each other. I believe this was JKR's goal when she created this interestingly symmetrical situation in which Snape witnesses how Harry was mistreated by the Dursleys and aunt Marge (before that he didn't have any reason to doubt his first impression that Harry is a pampered child celebrity who thinks he can get away with anything), while Harry witnesses Snape abused by (presumably) Snape's father and by James. Sure, both Harry and Snape are still emotionally invested in their previously wrong views of the other, even as they already know these views are wrong. And besides, no way JKR is going to waste such a dramatic potential, so we can safely assume that the reconciliation will be very dramatic, perhaps in a situation when they both depend on each other for their lives. Neri From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sun Dec 28 16:47:49 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 10:47:49 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 8, The Hearing References: <20031227190617.35626.qmail@web40210.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3FEF0935.5020604@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87690 Kristin Harris wrote: > I am a little lost. Where does it say that only magic people can see > Dementors? Maybe I missed it. Could just be an assumption made by magical people that the spells used to hide magical creatures from muggles fully work on dementors. Fudge often gives the impression that 'magic people' think they are perfect or something. Though Dudley didn't 'see' the dementors, he certainly felt their presence. But that magical darkness the dementors use might make it hard for anyone to see them. Maybe also, as the dementors do serve Voldemort, the magic that conceals them from muggles is being deliberately removed as the first part of a terror campaign against the muggles. Jazmyn From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun Dec 28 16:53:50 2003 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 16:53:50 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Lars is bright tonight (part 2 of 2) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87691 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan Miller" wrote: > "But there is another puzzling thing about Quirrell." > > "And that is ... ?" > > "What happened to him? Dumbledore never says he died, only that he was left for dead. > Furthermore, Quirrell was fortified with unicorn's blood. Firenze > tells us, 'The blood of a unicorn will keep you alive, even if you > are an inch from death, but at a terrible price.'" Now Neri: Nice theory, but that part about Quirrell still being alive is not likely. We all saw him breaking into thousand pieces in the movie. It didn't look like something unicorn blood or even the elixir of life could fix. I know, I know, we are talking about the *books* and the movies are *not* the books and they are *not* canon, but we also know that JKR inspects the movies and authorizes everything, so they would not stray too far from the books. If JKR was planning to spring Quirrell on us again in later books, she would have tipped WB to keep Quirrell's end off stage. The rest of the theory does not depend in any way on Quirrell being alive, so it still floats well enough by me. Neri From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Sun Dec 28 17:13:25 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 17:13:25 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Lars is bright tonight (part 2 of 2) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87692 --- nkafkafi" wrote: > Nice theory, but that part about Quirrell still being alive is not > likely. We all saw him breaking into thousand pieces in the movie. It > didn't look like something unicorn blood or even the elixir of life > could fix. Constance (me): Two problems with that. Movies are not canon. Movies also can violate canon. We saw the carriages being pulled by horses. Not invisible thestrals. Secondly, when the movie makes a canon violation, they can come up with SOMETHING that fixes it. Or they can simply ignore it and make the audience make the leap. I'm eager to see how they handle the thestral problem. If the story requires that a burnt-to-dust Quirrell come back for a curtain call, the writers will figure out how to do it. Thirdly (okay, three problems), I'm not convinced that JKR had absolute veto power over the movies. I think the movies would have been better if she had. I'll quit now before I get a forbidden Movie post howler. Thank you for the confidence otherwise. I stand by my conviction that Quirrell is alive and will reappear at a critical moment. While I'm at it, now that we have linked the Hogwarts plumbing, the Lake and Durmstrang, there are lots of other exiting possibilities that may be explored. How about the giant squid throttling a sea invasion? Maybe there is now a job for Trevor - running through the pipes for some Noble Purpose? Constance Vigilance, now risking a howler for fan fiction on the canon list, too. From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sun Dec 28 17:40:42 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 17:40:42 -0000 Subject: FILK: In the Body of a Snake Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87693 In the Body of a Snake to the tune of In the Belly of the Whale from the Veggietales movie Jonah. pixieberry has been kind enough to inform me offlist that this is performed by the Newsboys, one of her favourite groups. Dedicated to pixieberry, of course. In the Body of a Snake In the forest of Albania, during his bodyless phase, LV sings: (Backup vocals provided by furry woodland creatures) Out of my norm without a form. Can't believe I took that blow. Of my curse rejected, then reflected. Got word from Pete, thought my dark plan would be complete. He said "go, Godric's Hollow" Tossed an AK-but, hey, What's that blinding green glow? I'm down on my belly here (In the body of a snake) I'm weaker than jelly here (In the body of a snake) Not even a deli here! (And I've got a belly ache) How long must this form I take? So now I'm coiled here feeling blue Got no wand, so I'm just chillin'. Can't hold one in a bod reptilian. If one were served me, I'd be saved- Back to be a nasty git-head (Hmm, I wonder what rhymes with "git-head") I'm down on my belly here (In the body of a snake) I'm weaker than jelly here (In the body of a snake) I'm going through Hell-y here (And I've got a belly ache) How long must this form I take? The years, they pass dragging me down No beers to pass, helping me drown the horror. The DE's pass on giving a second chance. I'm down on my belly here (In the body of a snake) Scenery's Mary Shelley here (In the body of a snake) Some hands would turn up my frown (Winnin' hands down. In the body of a snake) I'm in the body of a snake (In the body of a snake) I'm in the body (In the body of a snake) I'm in the body of a snake (In the body of a snake) In the body, in the body of a snake It's just more than I can take. When my coils squeeze It's indigestion, but it's a feeling I can shake. Hey, buddy, wipe my nose please Cuz as you can plainly see Haven't got a hand that's free. I'm a Voldemort, Heading back someday It's a ruddy chore, but I'm gonna make them pay. All the DE's must pray I'll forget, no regret-say They're wrong-I am strong I belong And that Potter's gonna pay! In the body of a snake (In the body) In the body of a snake (In the body) In the body of a snake (In the body, in the body of a snake) In the body of a snake I'm livin' in the body of a snake. Just a note: I'm not sure if this is recorded elsewhere, but on the lyrics page (what? you think a middle aged lady can actually understand that rap-like section?) there was a verse that's not on the movie, so I didn't include it. If anyone's interested in the actual lyrics, they are at lyricscrawler.com under V for Veggietales. They're a hoot. Happy New Year! Ginger From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Sun Dec 28 17:52:59 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 06:52:59 +1300 Subject: Timeline question. Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031229064456.00aae8f0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 87694 I was reading the lexicon last night, and it said that in 1980 Karakroff and Dolohov are captured and sent to Azkaban. Now that is at least a year before LV's failed attack on HP. In book 4, When Harry finds Dumbledore's pensieve and sees the court scenes. Karakroff outs Snape as a DE when he is trying to buy his way out. Now, Dumebldore verifies that Snape is a spy and no longer a DE, etc, etc. If LV was still at full strength at this time, something is definitely up. Now, what my question is. When was this trial? Was it before the Potter's attack or after? Did those two DE's stay in Azkaban for over a year before the trial or not. Any thoughts? Tanya From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Sun Dec 28 17:57:13 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 17:57:13 -0000 Subject: Just suppose Snape is at the heart of it all In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87695 --- karenreiduk presented a fascinating and wonderful Snapetheory, which I am snipping almost all of in the interest of addressing only a small issue: > > Dumbledore considers this new information and consults his pensive > memory of the full prophecy. He is now equipped to interpret it as > follows:- > > "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches " > (He interprets this as tip-toeing-up-to-eavesdrop-at-the-door- > "approaches" not soon-to-be-born-"approaches".) > > "Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month > dies " > (He interprets this as an individual re-born to a cause, not a child > born to parents.) > > "The Dark Lord will mark him as his equal " > (He interprets this literally. Snape is the only member of The > Order chosen by Voldemort to wear his dark mark.) > > "But he will have power the Dark Lord knows not " > (He relates this to Snape becoming an accomplished Occlumens and > using the power to thwart Voldemort. The Dark Lord still knows > nothing of this power 15 years later in Book 5.) > > Dumbledore realises that the prophecy is not about Harry or Neville > or any other child born at the end of July. The prophecy is about > Snape. It's delicious, and I really want to believe it. Please explain the problem of the prophecy only being able to be removed from the Dept of Mysteries by the rightful owner? Harry could touch it. ~ Constance Vigilance, excited to see that Big New Theories are being hatched. Sort of like dragons. From darkthirty at shaw.ca Sun Dec 28 18:00:46 2003 From: darkthirty at shaw.ca (dan) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 18:00:46 -0000 Subject: Void at the Heart of the Story Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87696 It is refreshing to read Potter theory in which the personalities, boundaries, relationships of the central characters maintain a coherence with canon. There is a wide highway of the passive- aggressive that running through the HP story, but it is self- limiting. Rowling might suggest the psychiatric, but she neither inhabits nor parses it. In part, the Potter story attacts fill, or, rather, there is a hole, an absence at the core of the telling. In my reading, the emptiness, like a flashing VACANCY sign, is the space between the boy in the closet, the Real World Harry, and the telling, a negative space that surrounds, for example, the Hogwarts Express and the School itself. Thousands of readers peer into that space and attempt to fill it up, but the vacancy remains, given shape by that failing, they way scientists identify black holes, for example. For us, it is a real space, and no matter our education, reading skills, personal vision, if we read the books, we become aware of that space. If we get hooked, it is perhaps partly because the narrative resonates in a similar space within ourselves, a salient, as it were, of the vacancy Rowling so carefully maintains. The space in Potter is a space in ourselves. To a large extent, this void, while many readings try to fill it up with words or theories that come too easily to hand, or to bridge it blind, without understanding the nature of the story itself, echoes the desire that, at heart, accounts for the yearning at the heart of the story - which, in my reading, is the desire to be free of the closet's limitations, the desire for freedom, as it were. Vanish into that absence. Many want to do it, and theory is just such an attempt. I advocate a maintenance approach, which preserves the space and that which constitutes it. In a significant way, if Rowling trangresses at all, it is in loving this stasis, this void at the heart of the story. That is why attempts to fill it often seem so paltry, even tawdry. Rowling is radical, but by a careful exclusion that refuses adamantly pat answers, attempts to fill the void with emotional trinkets, with mystery for the sake of mystery, answer for the sake of closure. From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Sun Dec 28 18:12:44 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 07:12:44 +1300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Just suppose Snape is at the heart of it all In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031229070820.00abda80@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 87697 At 17:57 28/12/2003 +0000, you wrote: >Constance Vigilance wrote: >--- karenreiduk presented a fascinating and wonderful Snapetheory, >which I am snipping almost all of in the interest of addressing only >a small issue: > >It's delicious, and I really want to believe it. Please explain the >problem of the prophecy only being able to be removed from the Dept >of Mysteries by the rightful owner? Harry could touch it. > >~ Constance Vigilance, excited to see that Big New Theories are being >hatched. Sort of like dragons. Tanya now Yes it is a very interesting theory. As for the prophecy orb. Someone back then decided to name it, and they had to put something on it. It is interesting that the other option of Neville is not allowed for. Whoever vouched for the names set the protection for that orb and decided ahead of time that there could be now other choices in their eyes. Unless of course Harry is the biggest red herring of the lot. Tanya [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sunnylove0 at aol.com Sun Dec 28 18:21:52 2003 From: sunnylove0 at aol.com (sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 13:21:52 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lars is bright tonight (essay format) Message-ID: <154.2aa3ca86.2d207940@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87698 In a message dated 12/27/2003 3:00:06 PM Mountain Standard Time, constancevigilance at yahoo.com writes: I think it is possible that a German Dark Wizard cooperated with the occupying force, taking over a wizarding school in Norway, giving it a German name and populating it with young wizards from Eastern Europe for the purpose of learning the Dark Arts for global mischief. In fact, we know of one Dark Wizard who could have done exactly that. I think Grindelwald was that Dark Wizard. Amber: But Durmstrang has been around for a while as evidenced by Dumbledore's story of the Triwizard Tournament: GOF(p.187, American edition): "The Triwizard Tournament was first established some seven hundred years ago as a friendly competition between the three largest European schools of wizardry: Hogwarts, Beauxbatons, and Durmstrang." ******** I do like the idea of Durmstrang being in Scandinavia, though. Maybe Beauxbatons and Durmstrang are regional schools like Hogwarts (Western Europe, and Eastern Europe, respectively) or families in Europe simply choose which one they would like to send their children to (like the Malfoys). And Grindelwald (didn't someone say that name might have been Swiss in origin?) could, during his Dark Wizard reign, have certainly have taken over Durmstrang and influnced its curriculum. Hagrid says in PS/SS that the only reason Voldemort didn't try taking over Hogwarts was his fear of Dumbledore. Amber [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 28 18:58:28 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 18:58:28 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lars is bright tonight (essay format) References: <1072569683.6433.41360.m13@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000801c3cd74$94a445c0$a7e66151@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 87699 Constance wrote: >Nowary. But how to get to Norway and back quickly? Apparate? No - you >can't apparate in or out of Hogwarts. Knight Bus? No - it won't go >under water, and besides, he wants to keep his activities a secret. Can't the Bus go under water? I always imagined that when it "jumps", it crosses the requisite distance between destinations irrespective of whether there's water in between. If it _can't_ cross water (which would mean that it couldn't get to the Isle of Wight, the Isle of Man, Orkney, and various other destinations (not to mention Ireland)) then I wonder how much water it can't cross? Having said that, though, I would still agree that you couldn't get to Norway on the bus - I'd be happier with the thought that whatever magic makes it go from place to place is geographically determined - it _can_ cross the Irish Sea, because that's part of its defined area but _can't_ cross the English Channel, because France is a different country. But JKR alone knows all! Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Sun Dec 28 19:10:35 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 19:10:35 -0000 Subject: Lars is bright tonight (essay format) In-Reply-To: <154.2aa3ca86.2d207940@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87700 --- Regarding Durmstrang Amber asked: > > But Durmstrang has been around for a while as evidenced by Dumbledore's story > of the Triwizard Tournament: > > GOF(p.187, American edition): > > "The Triwizard Tournament was first established some seven hundred years ago > as a friendly competition between the three largest European schools of > wizardry: Hogwarts, Beauxbatons, and Durmstrang." I'm so glad you brought that up. I had thought of that also. That's why I specified that I thought Grindelwald took over an existing school and RENAMED it Durmstrang. Dumbledore would refer to a school by its CURRENT name because its original name would have no meaning to the audience. This list is so terrific because while my theory research not only allowed me to learn a lot about Norway and trolls that I would have missed, I also learned about Sturm und Drang, which is the source of the name Durmstrang. Now I get to show off. Sturm und Drang (Storm and Stress) was a German literary movement that was begun in the 18th century, "(L)iterature that was revolutionary in its stress on subjectivity and on the unease of man in contemporary society. The movement was distinguished also by the intensity with which it developed the theme of youthful genius in rebellion against accepted standards .... " http://www.bartleby.com/65/st/Sturmund.html So, we have a school that is named for a movement that is only a little over 200 years old? If it was participating in Tri-Wizard tournaments 700 years ago, it must have done so under another name. Furthermore, I find it interesting that a school that specializes in Dark Arts is named after a philosophy that emphasizes youthful genius in rebellion. JKR and her names! They are wonderful! ~ Constance Vigilance From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Sun Dec 28 19:20:18 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 19:20:18 -0000 Subject: Lars is bright tonight (essay format) In-Reply-To: <000801c3cd74$94a445c0$a7e66151@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87701 --- Ffred brings up a good point: > Can't the Bus go under water? I always imagined that when it "jumps", it > crosses the requisite distance between destinations irrespective of whether > there's water in between. If it _can't_ cross water (which would mean that > it couldn't get to the Isle of Wight, the Isle of Man, Orkney, and various > other destinations (not to mention Ireland)) then I wonder how much water it > can't cross? > Hmm. I think you are right. I guess the Knight Bus just says "No underwater destinations". I guess it can hop over at least some water. But there still is the secrecy problem. I still think the Knight Bus is not an option for getting to Norway in this particular situation. ~ Constance Vigilance From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 28 20:00:54 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 20:00:54 -0000 Subject: Whoa Nelly! Lots of Snape, was Harry in NEWT Potions Class? In-Reply-To: <001f01c3cd5e$b7901980$e958aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87702 Whee! A Snape discussion! OK, a couple of points. I will be combining posts here. In http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87657 Laura writes: > > Maybe, but maybe not. I keep remembering how dear Severus reacted > when Harry was frantically trying to get help for Crouch Sr in > GoF.Snape toyed with him as long as possible despite Harry's > obvious distress. And Alla replies: >>>>>>>> Oh, yeah. Very helpful he was indeed. Don't you think that this scene was Snape at its worst to Harry in GoF. Who knows, maybe Crouch Sr. could have been saved if Harry could have gotten to Dumbledore's few moments earlier. >>>>>>>> Pip!Squeak: Ooh, I love this scene. It's the one in GoF, Ch 28, p. 484 (UK edition). I love it because, after reading this scene for the first time, every reader I know (including me, on the first reading) will come away and, with their hands on their hearts, inform you quite seriously that Snape delayed Harry. If it hadn't been for Snape being such a git, Crouch Sr. might have been saved. It is JKR's most superb bit of misdirection. Snape doesn't delay Harry getting to Dumbledore at all. Harry gets to Dumbledore a lot sooner than he would have done *because of Snape*. It's all in two lines just before Snape's entrance: "Perhaps Dumbledore was in the staff room? He started running as fast as he could towards the staircase ?" [ie the staircase to the *staff room*, *away* from Dumbledore's office]. It's at that point that Snape sees Harry running at high speed away from the entrance to Dumbledore's office, and *calls him back*. We then get seven lines in which Snape is pretty nasty, before Dumbledore also appears out of the doorway to his office. It's these seven lines, plus Harry's later assessment of the scene (Ch. 29 p.491) that fix the idea in the reader's mind that Snape delayed Harry. If you read the lines out loud, you'll find the entire conversation between Harry and Snape takes 20 odd seconds. Then Dumbledore appears. It could even be argued that the very short delay meant that Snape already knew Dumbledore was coming down the stairs behind him [grin]. But, even if you think Snape didn't know Dumbledore would be out soon - 20 odd seconds versus the time Harry would have taken to not find Dumbledore in the staff room? Before Harry and Dumbledore reached the scene of the crime, Barty Jr had time to carry his father's corpse into the Forbidden Forest and cover it with his Invisibility Cloak, then return to the scene and talk to Dumbledore . Those twenty odd seconds of Snape talk made no difference whatsoever. And if Snape had not interfered, Harry would have caused an even longer delay in getting back to Crouch Sr, by looking for Dumbledore in the wrong place. Amanda, in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87675 has already presented a very strong case for Snape's attitude to Harry being *partly* caused by his need to present truthful memories to Voldemort. There is other evidence in support of this. Snape is revealed in Order of the Phoenix as a good actor. Ch. 32 pp. 656-657 (the scene where he's called to Umbridge's office), and OOP Ch. 37 p. 734 (where Dumbledore reveals that Snape gave Umbridge fake Veritaserum without her ever realising what he was up to) Note that whenever Harry talks to Dumbledore about Snape hating *him*, Dumbledore will immediately divert the reply to Snape's hatred of James Potter. He does this in both Philosopher's Stone and in Order of the Phoenix. In Philosopher's Stone, Harry asks if Quirrel was telling the truth about Snape hating him because he hated James [Ch. 17, p.217 UK paperback]. Dumbledore doesn't actually answer the question ? he says is that it is true that Snape hated James. His reply doesn't suggest at any point that Snape hates Harry. In Order of the Phoenix, Harry is talking about Snape throwing him out of the Occlumency lessons. He suggests that Snape was trying to soften him up for Voldemort. And Dumbledore's reply again refers to ? not Snape's dislike of *Harry*, but Snape's feelings about *James*. The idea that `Snape hates Harry because of James' isn't actually canon. It's a theory. `Snape hates James' is canon. `Snape is deeply unpleasant to Harry' is canon. We don't actually know whether Snape is unpleasant to Harry because he hates him. There may be another reason. As well as the `Snape is putting on an act for use against Voldemort theory', as Amanda also points out, Snape seems to have the `stern parent' role. Dumbledore generally has the `indulgent grandfather' role; Harry can get away with just about anything as far as Dumbledore is concerned. It's Snape who's got the job of enforcing the rules and teaching Harry about limits. This stern parent, whilst verbally abusive, only once causes Harry actual harm (under the extreme provocation of the Pensieve incident in Occlumency). Otherwise, his sarcasm is generally directed towards the idea of `there are rules, you are not above them, you are here to learn and I will teach you whether you want to learn or not'. It's interesting that on the one occasion where Snape has the Trio absolutely bang to rights with an expulsion offence (when they attacked him in the Shrieking Shack), he back-pedals furiously. Suddenly, the kids are under a spell. They weren't responsible. Three years of shrieking `Expel Potter', and when Snape *really* has the opportunity, he's going `hold on a minute ' [grin]. Keep an eye on dear Severus. What's happening under that greasy scalp is probably not what you think is happening ;-) Pip!Squeak From karenreiduk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 28 18:16:03 2003 From: karenreiduk at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Karen=20Reid?=) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 18:16:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Just suppose Snape is at the heart of it all In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031228181603.48097.qmail@web25108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87703 Hi Susan, Thanks for your support. I have been a lurker since the release of the last book but I have been nervous about posting this theory. Susan Miller wrote: snip - It's delicious, and I really want to believe it. Please explain the problem of the prophecy only being able to be removed from the Dept of Mysteries by the rightful owner? Harry could touch it. ~ Constance Vigilance, excited to see that Big New Theories are being hatched. Sort of like dragons. - snip In response to your query I believe that Harry, Neville or Snape could have removed the prophecy from the Department of Mysteries. The prophecy is labelled "S.P.T. to A.P.W.B.D. Dark Lord and (?) Harry Potter". I reckon the "(?)" allowed for plausible alternative interpretations. I admit that this is one of the areas that requires a little canon elasticity. K --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From karenreiduk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 28 18:35:29 2003 From: karenreiduk at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Karen=20Reid?=) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 18:35:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Just suppose Snape is at the heart of it all In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20031229070820.00abda80@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <20031228183529.23482.qmail@web25107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87704 Tanya Swaine wrote: >>Yes it is a very interesting theory. As for the prophecy orb. Someone back then decided to name it, and they had to put something on it. It is interesting that the other option of Neville is not allowed for. Whoever vouched for the names set the protection for that orb and decided ahead of time that there could be now other choices in their eyes. Unless of course Harry is the biggest red herring of the lot.>> Now me: The fact that Neville wasn't specifically named as another option was what got me thinking originally. Whoever labelled the prophecy in the first place recognised an existing ambiguity over the subject matter by including the "(?)". If Neville were the only plausible alternative to Harry why "(?) Harry Potter" and not "Harry Potter or Neville Longbottom"? K From belijako at online.no Sun Dec 28 20:54:02 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 20:54:02 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 8, The Hearing In-Reply-To: <3FEF0935.5020604@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87705 Kristin Harris wrote: I am a little lost. Where does it say that only magic people can see > > Dementors? Maybe I missed it. Jazmyn wrote: Could just be an assumption made by magical people that the spells used to hide magical creatures from muggles fully work on dementors. Berit replies: It's canon that Muggles can't see Dementors: Lupin tells Harry that "even Muggles feel their presence, though they can't see them". (PoA p. 140 UK Ed). Berit From kcawte at ntlworld.com Mon Dec 29 04:57:25 2003 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 20:57:25 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) References: Message-ID: <007401c3cdc8$40c4f9f0$a6706751@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 87706 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" > The reason he didn't understand the true situation is the > > same reason he didn't try in his lessons - he was being kept > completely in the dark. > Ces > But who was keeping him in the dark? We know Snape was, yes, but on > whose orders? Was in Dumbledore who told Snape to just give Harry > the bare minimum information? Again, the problem with the books is > we don't see what goes on outside Harry's perspective!! Snape gets > the blame for the occulmeny lessons going bad, but maybe he's just > following Dumbledore's orders; we probably won't know until book 7. > > And remember, even Hermione tried to get Harry to do his homework, > but Harry, in his hatred of Snape, won't do it. Yes, Harry is not an > adult yet, but like I tell my daughter, if you want to be treated as > more than a child, then start acting like one, and sometimes, that > means following the rules adults set for you. > > K I think you must have missed my point - because that's pretty much what I *was* saying. It must have been on Dumbledore's orders that Harry was kept in the dark because he's the only one who would have authority of any form over Severus and Molly and Sirius, besides he does day himself that he was trying to protect Harry but not telling him things (although he may simply have been referring to the prophesy there). Yes Harry *should* have worked at Occulomancy even without the reason being clear to him. Unfortunately teenagers don't act like that, *especially* when they think they have a good reason to act in another way. Harry clearly believed the visions could help the Order so the only reason for stopping them would be to protect him. Harry being a Gryffindor and prone to random acts of bravery but not necessarily careful consideration therefore decided that the risk was worth it. While I have made the point that he should be punished for breaking rules in this case I think he's received punishment enough. While his conclusions were wrong the path to get to them was fairly logical and the whole situation could have been solved if Dumbledore had got someone Harry trusted (Minerva? Molly? Sirius even) to sit down with him for five minutes after the Snake incident and explain what was happening.. Having said all that - they were all honest mistakes and a person can only be expected to make what they hope is the right decision in any circumstance and then deal with the consequences. The only person truly responsible for Sirius' death is Bellatrix. K From AllieS426 at aol.com Sun Dec 28 21:48:34 2003 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 21:48:34 -0000 Subject: Just suppose Snape is at the heart of it all In-Reply-To: <20031228183529.23482.qmail@web25107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87707 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Karen Reid wrote: > Tanya Swaine wrote: > Unless of course Harry is the biggest red herring of the lot.>> > > Now me: > The fact that Neville wasn't specifically named as another option was what got me thinking originally. Whoever labelled the prophecy in the first place recognised an existing ambiguity over the subject matter by including the "(?)". If Neville were the only plausible alternative to Harry why "(?) Harry Potter" and not "Harry Potter or Neville Longbottom"? > Harry, a red herring??? Wouldn't that be a kick in the pants? :) As for the prophecy, when it was made, Harry and Neville weren't born yet, so it couldn't be labeled with anything (hence the "?"). Then when Harry was born, it was assumed to be about him. Allie From catlady at wicca.net Sun Dec 28 22:09:04 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 22:09:04 -0000 Subject: Snape, Durmstrang, Snape; Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87708 Kathryn Cawte wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87643 : << [Snape] doesn't want to make things better between him and Harry - he wants to never have to spend any more time with Harry ever again! >> That's what Snape wants, but he isn't going to get it as long as the war against Voldemort continues, Harry is the prophecy boy (or the red herring), and Snape is on Dumbledore's side. Constance Vigilance TBAY'ed in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87645 : << Berit describes part of Muggle War II when Germans occupied Norway and imported labor from Eastern Europe.(snip) I think it could have been possible for a Dark Wizard to have co-operated with the occupying force. I think the Dark Wizard could have taken over a wizard school in Scandinavia, renamed it with a German name >> Hermione had read about Durmstrang in those books I mentioned in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87586. If its name had been changed so very recently, the books would have mentioned it, and I think Hermione would have mentioned it at some point. If the Dark Wizard Grindelwald's connection with Durmstrang was known, Hermione would have mentioned it when she said that Durmstrang has 'a horrible reputation'. Could Grindelwald's connection with Durmstrang have been kept secret if Dumbledore fought Grindelwald at Durmstrang when it is Chocolate Frog Card common knowledge that Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald? Constance Vigilance wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87700 : << So, we have a school that is named for a movement that is only a little over 200 years old? If it was participating in Tri-Wizard tournaments 700 years ago, it must have done so under another name. >> If we're meta-thinking, JKR invented both the school Durmstrang and its history, and its name which she based on 'sturm und drang'. Being the author, her relationship to the story is in the form of 'an eternal now' in which she can put effects earlier in the time line than causes if she chooses to do so. If we're stan-thinking, first there is no reason to assume that Durmstrang was named after 'sturm und drang'; the similarity of sound could be a pure co-incidence. When the Blacks named their sons Sirius and Regulus, were they planning that Sirius would become an Animagus with a Black Dog form? Second, wizarding folk could have invented the 'sturm und drang' movement many centuries before it crossed over to Muggles. Third, they have time travel (PoA). Whether we're meta-thinking or stan-thinking, the school could have been named Durmstrang all along and still be/have been in northern Scandinavia (IIRC Pengolodh_sc once posted a lot of evidence that it is). The meta-thinking, that JKR can name her creation whatever she wants, is easy. The stan-thinking might suggest that the Germanic sound of the name is a coincidence (maybe they named it by casting runes and using the word formed by that sequence of runes? Like Dweezil Zappa was named by drawing Scrabble tiles?), or develop lovely fan-fic of how a wizard from Germany travelled, fell in love with the Arctic, and had a hard decision between his two favorite sites to put his school, one in Norway and one in Canada. It has been pointed out that 'Hogwarts' and 'Hogsmeade' are not Scot-sounding place-names, and none of the Founders's names sound particularly Scots: Godric and Rowena are Saxon names, Helga Danish, Salazar foreign. K Cawte wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87671 : << I would be quite amused if Sirius came back as a ghost purely to take Molly aside and say 'I told you we should tell him!' :) >> This is a forbidden LOL post! Amanda wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87675 : << Harry & Hermione joined by Neville, Ginny, Ron, and Luna, who *also* apparently don't have the sense God gave a brass doorknob, as they *also* have not gone to the only Order member, Snape, >> It seems to me that you can't blame Luna: does she even know that the Order exists, let alone who's in it? I think the same for Neville. Karen Reid wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87678 : << (we know that the prophecy was overheard before Harry was born in July and that Voldemort doesn't visit Godrick's Hollow until Halloween which was 3 months later). >> Your theory that it's all about Snape is very creative (I bowed to it by calling Harry 'red herring' up near the top of this post), but I have a nitpick on an irrelevant detail: the attack at Godric's Hollow was 15 months after Harry was born, not 3 months. From suzchiles at msn.com Sun Dec 28 22:50:23 2003 From: suzchiles at msn.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 14:50:23 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Just suppose Snape is at the heart of it all References: <20031228183529.23482.qmail@web25107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87709 > Now me: > The fact that Neville wasn't specifically named as another option was what got me thinking originally. Whoever labelled the prophecy in the first place recognised an existing ambiguity over the subject matter by including the "(?)". If Neville were the only plausible alternative to Harry why "(?) Harry Potter" and not "Harry Potter or Neville Longbottom"? > > K Well, I know that canon tends to get in the way of theories, but Dumbledore made it clear that it was labeled as such after the attack on Harry. Suzanne From karenreiduk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 28 22:47:48 2003 From: karenreiduk at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Karen=20Reid?=) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 22:47:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: Snape, Durmstrang, Snape; In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031228224748.54726.qmail@web25105.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87710 Karen Reid wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87678 : << (we know that the prophecy was overheard before Harry was born in July and that Voldemort doesn't visit Godrick's Hollow until Halloween which was 3 months later). >> "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: Your theory that it's all about Snape is very creative (I bowed to it by calling Harry 'red herring' up near the top of this post), but I have a nitpick on an irrelevant detail: the attack at Godric's Hollow was 15 months after Harry was born, not 3 months. Now me (Karen): You are absolutely right - oops I managed to miss out a whole year! So 15 months from Harry's birth/Snape's re-birth to the Godric's Hollow incident. And we assume even longer between the telling of the prophecy and Godric's Hollow. From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun Dec 28 21:27:30 2003 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 21:27:30 -0000 Subject: The alternative way to the potions NEWT Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87711 I did some searching but couldn't find if anyone already brought up this possibility (except for a suggestion of a suggestion by Flutterbyhex in # 62106), so I apologize if I missed anybody. Anyway, there may be a way for Harry to get a NEWT in potions even if Snape is still the potions teacher and absolutely refuses to accept Harry into the NEWT class. OotP (US), p. 665: "Professor McGonagall got to her feet, too, and in her case this was a much more impressive move: she towered over Professor Umbridge. 'Potter,' she said in ringing tones, 'I will assist you to become an Auror if it is the last thing I do! If I have to coach you nightly, I will make sure you achieve the required results!" Now this was pretty resolute, wouldn't you say? True, McGonagall is the transfiguration teacher, but I dare say she is up to NEWT level in potions too, and (no offense Snape fans) is also better with teaching. And between McGonagall and Hermione coaching him, Harry's problem is not how to get an E in the NEWT, but how to get an evening off from privet potions lessons. In OotP it was made clear that OWLs and NEWTs are conducted by the MoM, not by the Hogwarts teachers. Do you have to be in the official NEWT class in order to take the NEWT? Perhaps not, especially if the headmaster and deputy are both on your side. Neri From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 29 00:01:29 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 00:01:29 -0000 Subject: Whoa Nelly! Lots of Snape, was Harry in NEWT Potions Class? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87712 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" wrote: > > > Pip!Squeak: > Ooh, I love this scene. It's the one in GoF, Ch 28, p. 484 (UK > edition). I love it because, after reading this scene for the first > time, every reader I know (including me, on the first reading) will > come away and, with their hands on their hearts, inform you quite > seriously that Snape delayed Harry. If it hadn't been for Snape > being such a git, Crouch Sr. might have been saved. > > But, even if you think Snape didn't know Dumbledore would be out > soon - 20 odd seconds versus the time Harry would have taken to not > find Dumbledore in the staff room? Before Harry and Dumbledore > reached the scene of the crime, Barty Jr had time to carry his > father's corpse into the Forbidden Forest and cover it with his > Invisibility Cloak, then return to the scene and talk to > Dumbledore . Those twenty odd seconds of Snape talk made no > difference whatsoever. > > And if Snape had not interfered, Harry would have caused an even > longer delay in getting back to Crouch Sr, by looking for Dumbledore > in the wrong place. > > It was you, Pip! See, yesterday, when I wrote this post, I remebered someone defending Snape in this scene, bud did not want to mention you again without being sure. :o) Sorry, not buying for a second. I have to reread this scene and maybe I will eat my words, but as far as I remember there is no evidence that Snape even knew that Dumbledore was in his office. > The idea that `Snape hates Harry because of James' isn't actually > canon. It's a theory. `Snape hates James' is canon. `Snape is > deeply unpleasant to Harry' is canon. We don't actually know whether > Snape is unpleasant to Harry because he hates him. There may be > another reason. I would say that after OoP 'Snape hates Harry because of James" is pretty much canon . If you could come up with other name for "Snape discontinuing lessons with Harry because he saw how his father bullied Snape knowing full well what danger it could be for Harry and all parties involved", I would love to hear it. :o) > This stern parent, whilst verbally abusive, only once causes Harry > actual harm (under the extreme provocation of the Pensieve incident > in Occlumency). Otherwise, his sarcasm is generally directed towards > the idea of `there are rules, you are not above them, you are here > to learn and I will teach you whether you want to learn or not'. > Under extreme provocation? Only once caused Harry actual harm? Stern parent role? I'd say more like "victim, who outlived his school bullies and turned bully towards the son of one of them" role. I think that this last time the harm was pretty substantial, don't you think? I also think that Snape hurt him a lot over the years and I'll leave it at that, because I may say something harsh, which I will defnitely regret later and I don't want to get in trouble with the moderators. Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 29 00:15:43 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 00:15:43 -0000 Subject: Whoa Nelly! Lots of Snape, was Harry in NEWT Potions Class? In-Reply-To: <001f01c3cd5e$b7901980$e958aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87713 Hi, Amanda! Let me just say that so far I find your post in Snape defense to be the most persuasive and eloquently put. Nevertheless I'd like to disagree with some of your points too. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: or dead, and that is fine by > Amanda: > > Okay, I'd like to do some timeline-ing here. It will be quick and dirty as I > flip through the book, corrections invited. But it seems to me that this > episode has as much potential for misinterpretation as the Shrieking Shack, > in terms of what Snape does and where he is and what he knows at which time. > does not say when he came back out, or what he found there; we do know he > did *not* find Dolores Umbridge, but I personally can't blame him for not > looking for her real hard.] > > I have no canon to contradict your analysis, I base my doubts on Severus behaviour in other situations. > Amanda: > > I think Snape has several reasons for not continuing to teach Harry. Look at > them, though, from the perspective of one who must stand and face Voldemort > and lie to him. > > One, surely, is that his hatred of James is too strong. That hatred is > spilling over on to Harry, understandably. But the *specific memory* of the > deepest reasons for the hatred are spilling over onto Harry now, via this > Pensieve incident. This will make it more difficult, I'd think, to keep > James-connected hatred/incidents and Harry-connected hatred/incidents > separate--which I believe Snape must be able to do in order to successfully > "shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie." Harry > knowing about all this, could endanger Snape's ability to successfully lie > to Voldemort. > > Which, I'll admit, Snape probably seized on as a great excuse because he is > still so pissed off at James. That doesn't mean it may not be valid in > itself. > > Okay, two. Snape has already as much as told Harry that he [Snape] spies on > Voldemort. Further deep explorations with a boy about whom Voldemort is > likely to be very concerned and want more information on, may also endanger > Snape's role as a spy, by putting dangerous revelations into memories that > Snape must let closer to the surface in speaking to Voldemort. > > And, edging now into how Snape would have received an apology from Harry, fo > r any of what I believe are *several* instances where one is warranted: I > believe Snape would have received him poorly. Or at least, Harry would have > thought so. > > For I believe that Snape's entire modus operandi has been a deliberate > effort to maintain his attitudes, in preparation for this current state > where he is in Voldemort's circle again. Snape must keep his feelings about > certain people, his memories, consistent in order to facilitate his use of > Occlumency to lie to Voldemort. He must possess true memories of favoring > Draco. He must possess true memories of hating Harry. The emotions attached > to those individuals and those memories must be accurate; and so Snape has > never made any attempt to alter those; has ignored oppportunities to > recognize other motives in Harry than he ascribes, etc. Snape cannot let > himself change his opinions of these two--or more accurately, he cannot > allow himself to build up emotions or memories where they are concerned that > would invalidate the face he presents to Voldemort. > > We already know that the plan put into motion at the end of GoF, for which > Snape was "ready" and "prepared," is one of long standing. Snape and > Dumbledore both know exactly what they are talking about, what is being > asked of Snape. So I submit that a lot--NOT all--of Snape's behavior towards > Harry and Draco is deliberate, in preparation for being able to successfully > lie to Voldemort via Occlumency. [I'm absolutely certain that Snape's past > makes this pattern *easy* to facilitate; but I do believe that he made a > conscious decision to do this, as well.] > > I also think this is why Snape never eats at Sirius' house. He can't afford > to have a memory of liking these people, eating with them, in any setting > where his mind may relax. I think he probably has all his planning > conversations with Dumbledore, and debriefs the Order, in the same place > (where he can control the memory of it) and after some mental preparations > (where he can control the emotions of it). OK, I love, love, love this part of your analysis too. But and here comes my disagreement - supposedly before Dumbledore asked Snape to teach Harry Occlumency, he (on his own or together with Snape) went through all these reasons and decided that it is more important to teach Harry and Snape has to risk his cover. Correct? So, it is even worse offense in my book for Snape deciding on his own to stop the lessons. You know, I would be so happy if Snape for once used his great bullying skills for a good cause and forced Harry to continue the lessons. I would have forgiven him, becuase it really would have been for a greater good. :o) Oh, well. I can dream. > If you're talking whose actions brought it about? Intent aside? Just who did > what that caused what? I would have to say Harry. He had not understood what > he'd been told about the link between himself and Voldemort, and so when > Voldemort began to use it, he was unprepared; he ignored Hermione's > reasoning; he forgot Snape was an Order resource; after he remembered, he > didn't go back and *get* Snape, but instead, charged off to London and > required rescuing. > Well, I strongly disagree for the reasons I stated in my earlier posts. Harry is the last person to blame even judging by his actions. He was not told enough about the link between him and Voldemort. Maybe I will beforced to eat my words again, but can you tell me where in the OoP Harry was told that Voldemort will try and plant FALSE visions in his mind about Department of Mysteries? I also really hope that Snape will get DADA in the Book 6. Here he will finally not have an upper hand in his interactions with Harry. Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 29 00:27:18 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 00:27:18 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: <000601c3cd42$fa4d2040$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87714 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Silverthorne Dragon" wrote: > "Blair" wrote: > > Anne Says: > > Also, Snape is taking one huge bullet for *everyone* by spying on the Death > Eaters (And Harry would be included in that). Eh? No matter how hard Snape's job is it is nothing in comparison with the bullet Harry is supposed to take for the whole wisarding world - to battle Voldy (and Snape will be included in that) > Also, let me tell you...although having someone take verbal potshots at you > is a pain, no matter who does it, it's not abuse. Abuse is when they have > you, mentally torment you until you believe whatever they say (Usually along > the lines of 'You;re horrid, you'll amount to nothing, you're useless, > clumsy, stupid," etc), and physcially beat you, often for something as > simple as missing a spot on a pan when you washed it (And yes, I've had that > sort of incident happen to me--repeatedly--as a child). Snape my be > vindictive, perhaps he gives Harry (and Neville) a little too much credit > for being able to handle a direct (Although Harry seems to do quite well on > that count--no matter WHAT Snape does, it slips off Harry like he was coated > with teflon), no frills reaction to his antics, but he is NOT abusive. He > *is*, however, giving Harry hard and fast lessons on what he can expect from > his enemies once he stops being "Harry the Boy" and becomes "Harry the young > man who will defeat Voldemort". > It is abuse in my book . It is even abuse by your definition - hementally torments Harry and Neville (poor Neville I think believes that he can not perform well in the potions class). Even though I live in the States now, I come from the educational system, which used to give the teacher MUCH more latitude in dealing with the students and even by that standards it is the worst kind of emotional abuse. > > Anne, > > Who knows that it's hard to understand Severus, but thinks folks have him > all wrong. As far as I am concerned, I get him right, thank you very much. :o) He is a great literary character, full of mystery and pain, and guilt. The character, who wants to be redeemed and I love him for that. He is also a worst kind of bully possible - the one, who was a victim in his childhoood and could not get over it, the one, who can't hurt his childhood enemies anymore, but who has to hurt someone and does that to innocent child. It is a cowardice, as someone stated yesterday. Alla From greatraven at hotmail.com Mon Dec 29 00:35:05 2003 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 00:35:05 -0000 Subject: The alternative way to the potions NEWT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87715 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > > In OotP it was made clear that OWLs and NEWTs are conducted by the > MoM, not by the Hogwarts teachers. Do you have to be in the official > NEWT class in order to take the NEWT? Perhaps not, especially if the > headmaster and deputy are both on your side. > > Neri Sue B: No reason why not. In our world you can do school or univeristy courses by correspondence, and many people in remote areas or who have to work full time do just that, so why not privately-conducted lessons in the WW? It's like our VCE here, exams conducted outside the school system. And Hermione would help - assuming you could get a kid like Harry to do extra homework! :-) Let's face it, he's only going to do that when he absolutely has to, judging by his behaviour in previous novels. He'd have the time off to go to the library, with one less classroom subject, but if he's anything like the kids I work with, who are pretty normal, he'd waste most of his spare time. No doubt, he'd end up driving McGonagall nuts. "What do you mean you haven't finished the work? Mr Potter, I have just spent an entire day in the classroom and am giving up my time to do this for you and you've been *practising Quidditch*? Yes, I want Gryffindor to win, but this is your study, Mr Potter!" After a time, she might even start to see Snape's point. Also I suspect that she said that about coaching him basically to get one up on Umbridge. She'd do it if asked, but reluctantly - Snape is her colleague, after all, and she has to go on working with him. How would it look? From karenreiduk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 28 23:30:56 2003 From: karenreiduk at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Karen=20Reid?=) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:30:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Just suppose Snape is at the heart of it all In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031228233056.42371.qmail@web25110.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87716 Suzanne Chiles wrote: Well, I know that canon tends to get in the way of theories, but Dumbledore made it clear that it was labelled as such after the attack on Harry. Suzanne I agree my theory requires some cannon - sorry, canon - elasticity. But when I read (pg 742 UK OoP) - 'The official record was re-labelled after Voldemort's attack on you as a child,' said Dumbledore. 'It seemed plain to the keeper of the Hall of Prophecy that Voldemort could only have tried to kill you because he knew you to be the one to whom Sybill was referring.' I can't help wondering if Professor McGonagall would consider the filing of prophecies just as imprecise as the study of them (pg 85 UK PoA). 'Then - it might not be me?' said Harry. 'I am afraid,' said Dumbledore slowly, looking as though every word cost him a great effort, 'that there is no doubt that it is you.' I'm afraid this "great effort" malarkey sits just as uncomfortably with me as his "twinkle" did in GoF. It's gonna be a long wait for book 6! K --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From klekatgirl at yahoo.com Mon Dec 29 00:57:50 2003 From: klekatgirl at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 00:57:50 -0000 Subject: OOP ch 1 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87717 After reading OOP the day it came out I'm finally getting back to reading it again to search for clues. These are some of the things I've come across in the first chapter that I'd like some input on. First of all, I get the idea that the news is very important. Harry also says that the most important news reports are first. The first one is as follows: "Record numbers of stranded holidaymakers fill airports as the Spanish baggage-handlers' strike reaches its second week-" Has anyone found this to be significant? I can't make sense of it. Maybe it's just not important. Also the part about Bungy the budgie water-skiing was mentioned twice in this chapter. That may be important. I also think that Mary Dorkins may play a role in a later book just because typically the characters randomly mentioned in previous books come back with a bigger role in later books. Also, sometimes the meanings of names are important in books. I looked up fig in the dictionary to find alternative meanings. One of them is "worthless trifle" the other of course talks about how figs are used to conceal. I think this meaning of her name is important and implies much of what we learn later in OOP. The first time I read this book, and again now, I noticed that JKR's sentence structure and other things are different. There are many more hyphens used as well as much more italicized print. It seems that in many cases these tell us of a nearby clue. When HP's scar was hurting in ch.1 of OOP the woman from number 7 was glaring at him. Could she play a role in future books? Harry talks about Dobby's powers. Do you think it is possible that Dobby can become invisible? Harry does not think so. I know that there is a drought at the beginning of OOP, but there are a couple symbols of death I noticed. These are Petunia's dying begonias as well as wilted lettuce. I was also wondering if begonias were a symbol for anything. I mean if they stand for something and it says they are dying that might tell us a lot. Harry seems much more angry in this book as well as big headed. Could he possibly join the dark side for some time in the next book or at least look into it for revenge? It just seems he's not the sweet boy trying to rid the world of evil anymore. Or could someone be influencing him? Who is this Mark Evans? We know both Petunia and Lily had a maiden name of "Evans". I rather enjoy this because Evans is my last name too :) In his dreams where Harry revisits Cedric's death HP screams for his parents' aid. Is it possible that they could intervene and help him or have in the past. Obviously his mother's love plays a big role in the reason why he didn't die. Harry said he could hear the dementors before he saw them. Should we be paying more attention to sounds mentioned in the book and which ones have I missed? I noticed in ch1 "crack" was repeated over and over. What are the dementors exactly? They are neither living or dead correct. Thanks in advance for your insight, Karen Evans (why wasn't I named Lily?) From mauranen at yahoo.com Mon Dec 29 00:48:19 2003 From: mauranen at yahoo.com (jekatiska) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 00:48:19 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Question:_Katie_Bell=92s_age_and_the_next_quidditch_captain?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87718 srbeers wrote: > Now to my speculation, I suspect Katie, if there and the overal team > if she is not, will elect Harry as captain. Jekatiska replies: I reckon it's not the team that choose the captain, but the head of house. In OtP (p.202 British edition) Angelina tells Harry she has been made Quidditch Captain and this is news to Harry. Later McGonagall threatens that she will lose Quidditch Captaincy if she will not stop shouting at Harry in he Great Hall (p.285) This said, I don't think Harry will be Quidditch Captain for two reasons. First, he was not made a prefect because Dumbledore thinks he has enough on his plate as it is, and second, because that would just make Quidditch practise and Quidditch on the whole too prominent in the book. I think there's going to be other stuff going on without Harry being Quidditch Captain as it is. Or are we to expect ove 1000 pages? On the other hand, he has shown aptitude for teaching - or rather coaching - in the DA, so unless they keep the DA going (also possible?) he could well have the time and skills needed for it. > That would mean what Ron saw in the Mirror of Erised had almost > complete come true; Quidditch Player, Quidditch Cup Winner, Team > Captain. The only think missing from his vision would be Ron as a Head > Boy, and we won't see that until 7th year. > > Unfortunately, the more successful and the more fulfilled Ron is, the > more likely I think he is to 'sleep with the fishes' before the end of > the book. > > Like I said; all speculation. However, I did accurately and > unwaveringly predict that Ron would be Keeper, so maybe I'm on the > right track this time. > > srbeers Your version of the story does seem very convincing, though. I could well imagine Ron as captain. I think it will be Katie, though, and Ginny will be chaser - naturally. As for the girls never discussing Quidditch, that was mentioned in another post, this is only because they are not central characters to the story and we don't hear what they talk about among themselves. I believe they are just as keen on Quidditch as the boys - just like girls who play team sports (like myself) tend to be. Jekatiska From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon Dec 29 00:49:11 2003 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 00:49:11 -0000 Subject: Whoa Nelly! Lots of Snape, was Harry in NEWT Potions Class? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87719 Pip!Squeak wrote: > It's interesting that on the one occasion where Snape has the Trio > absolutely bang to rights with an expulsion offence (when they > attacked him in the Shrieking Shack), he back-pedals furiously. > Suddenly, the kids are under a spell. They weren't responsible. > Three years of shrieking `Expel Potter', and when Snape *really* has > the opportunity, he's going `hold on a minute ' [grin]. Now Neri: There is a simpler (and more sinister, I'm afraid) explanation why Snape back-pedals on this. If he insists that HRH should be expelled, there will be a hearing or some similar public discussion, in which there will be no way to avoid the question why three students (not just Harry) believed in the possibility of Sirius Black's innocence enough to attack a teacher. This would have look extremely strange since everybody thought Harry was Black's intended victim, and the nutter!Harry theory was not yet at large at that time. In order to keep the evil!Black story from any lingering doubts, Snape had to maintain that HRH were enchanted somehow by Black, and so are innocent of attacking a teacher. So Snape just lets Harry get away this time only in order to nail the one he hates even more. Lupin is the one who presents the dilemma to Snape in the best way: "Is a schoolboy grudge worth putting an innocent man back inside Azkaban?" And in answer, Snape sends Sirius not only to Azkaban, but to the dementors' kiss. He won't even consider the possibility that Sirius could be innocent, not even for one second. And I can't see any back-pedaling or pretending-to-be-the-bad-guy here. So at least in this case, Snape did let his emotions control his rational thought and moral sense, and was saved from committing a terrible injustice only by DD and Harry. A thought just came to me that (as in another case I mentioned in a pervious post) here also JKR compares Harry and Snape, but this time Harry clearly comes the better man. When he entered the Shrieking Shack, Harry also believed in Black's guilt, and he had as much motive as Snape to hate Black. But unlike Snape, Harry gave the other side the chance to present its case. Neri From EnsTren at aol.com Mon Dec 29 01:27:22 2003 From: EnsTren at aol.com (EnsTren at aol.com) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 20:27:22 EST Subject: Harry normal (Was: Re: The alternative way to the potions NEWT) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87720 In a message dated 12/28/2003 7:36:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, greatraven at hotmail.com writes: assuming you could get a kid like Harry to do extra homework! :-) Let's face it, he's only going to do that when he absolutely has to, judging by his behaviour in previous novels. He'd have the time off to go to the library, with one less classroom subject, but if he's anything like the kids I work with, who are pretty normal, he'd waste most of his spare time That, right there is my biggest issues with Harry Potter and the Harry Potter books. I can say that I have talked to a child psycologist and she /Praises/ Rowling for making Harry act like a normal boy his age. They goof off, they don't ask for help when they should, they get angry, they blame everyone but themselves. This is great. Except one thing. Harry isn't normal a normal boy in a normal situation. I'm not talking about being a wizard in a magic school. I'm talking about the fact he's had his life threatened multipul times. Book one, he finds out that Voldemort is alive, and can get supporters from outside world and infiltrate Hogwarts. Book two, he finds out that Voldemort has people in high places supporting him even still. So far that's three times Voldemort has come after him, once as a baby, and Harry messed him up then, then after the PS, obviously he's going to be angry about this. You can say that the third time doesn't count, after all it was a memory only. Book three, no voldie, but deep cover agent who possibly knows a disturbing bit about him and "his weaslies" Book four, another undercover agent, and Voldemort comes back to life. And of course book five. Why doesn't he study? Why doesn't he think? Book one is a bit early, I admit, but after book four? And the Patronus doesn't count, that was for the dementors, not voldemort. he's not a normal boy, he's a boy that basically IS the front line. Any thoughts? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Mon Dec 29 02:25:52 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 02:25:52 -0000 Subject: Whoa Nelly! Lots of Snape, was Harry in NEWT Potions Class? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87721 > Laura writes: I keep remembering how dear Severus reacted when Harry was frantically trying to get help for Crouch Sr in GoF.Snape toyed with him as long as possible despite Harry's obvious distress. > Pip!Squeak: > It is JKR's most superb bit of misdirection. Snape doesn't delay > Harry getting to Dumbledore at all. Harry gets to Dumbledore a lot > sooner than he would have done *because of Snape*. > > It's all in two lines just before Snape's entrance: > "Perhaps Dumbledore was in the staff room? He started running as > fast as he could towards the staircase ?" [ie the staircase to the > *staff room*, *away* from Dumbledore's office]. > > It's at that point that Snape sees Harry running at high speed away from the entrance to Dumbledore's office, and *calls him back*. > > We then get seven lines in which Snape is pretty nasty, before > Dumbledore also appears out of the doorway to his office. It's these seven lines, plus Harry's later assessment of the scene (Ch. 29 p.491) that fix the idea in the reader's mind that Snape delayed Harry. Laura replies: Pip, I have to agree with your analysis of this scene, and it only confirms my belief that Harry would have been most reluctant to go to Snape for help after seeing Sirius being held captive by LV. Snape follows the letter of the law-DD has (presumably)instructed him that he is to keep Harry safe and he does so. But anything short of actual physical harm is Hary's problem, even if it comes from Snape himself. If Harry had asked Snape for help in OoP, you can imagine the reaction he would have gotten. "Surely you don't believe your dear godfather would have disobeyed Professor Dumbeldore's orders and left Grimmauld Place? And if you'd done your lessons as you were instructed, you'd never have had this vision in the first place. Get back to Gryffindor Tower, Potter, and stop bothering me with your fantasies." Of course, then Snape would have done what he had to do, which was to ascertain Sirius's whereabouts. But he wouldn't have done it in front of Harry, not only to torment him further but because he wouldn't want Harry to see how he communicated with Order members. Laura, who would love to have heard the conversation if Snape, rather than Harry, had ended up talking to Kreachur From maidne at yahoo.com Mon Dec 29 02:44:08 2003 From: maidne at yahoo.com (maidne) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 02:44:08 -0000 Subject: Just suppose Snape is at the heart of it all In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87722 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "karenreiduk" wrote: > Just suppose... > ::snip:: > "The Dark Lord will mark him as his equal " > (He interprets this literally. Snape is the only member of The > Order chosen by Voldemort to wear his dark mark.) > ::snip:: Only, the dark mark doesn't mark him as Voldemort's equal, it marks him as his servant. When the DL summons his DE's by means of the dark mark they are compelled to come to him. That does not imply equal status, at least not to me. Susan From editor at texas.net Mon Dec 29 02:59:14 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 20:59:14 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Whoa Nelly! Lots of Snape, was Harry in NEWT Potions Class? References: Message-ID: <001001c3cdb7$bf347060$8458aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 87723 Alla: > OK, I love, love, love this part of your analysis too. But and here > comes my disagreement - supposedly before Dumbledore asked Snape to > teach Harry Occlumency, he (on his own or together with Snape) went > through all these reasons and decided that it is more important to > teach Harry and Snape has to risk his cover. Correct? I'd agree. But I think an important part of that discussion also involved Snape's use of the Pensieve to remove certain memories, so that Harry could not by any accident access these during lessons. We have all assumed it is because they are the most painful or humiliating to Snape--they may be--but I submit that it may also be because a "bleedover" to Harry of those memories might endanger Snape's ability to successfully Occlumens before Voldemort. In other words, Harry invading Snape's memories in the Pensieve might well have changed the ground rules and "safety margin" set forth in any original agreement between Snape and Dumbledore. > So, it is even worse offense in my book for Snape deciding on his own > to stop the lessons. And even worse for Dumbledore to have known about it and allowed it, eh? Alla: > He [Harry] was not told enough about the link between him and Voldemort. > Maybe I will beforced to eat my words again, but can you tell me > where in the OoP Harry was told that Voldemort will try and plant > FALSE visions in his mind about Department of Mysteries? In the first Occlumency lesson, when Snape is talking to Harry: (Snape speaking) "The important point is that the Dark Lord is now aware that you are gaining access to his thoughts and feelings. He has also deduced that the process is likely to work in reverse; that is to say, he has realized that he might be able to access your thoughts and feelings in return--" "And he might try and make me do things?" asked Harry. "Sir?" he added hurriedly. "He might," said Snape, sounding cold and unconcerned. "Which brings us back to Occlumency." OoP, US, p. 533 This seems pretty clear to me, and right up front when they were starting. He must have understood it enough to explain it to Hermione, too, because when she's trying to talk sense into him after he's seen the vision of Sirius, she says "I'm trying to say--Voldemort knows you, Harry! He took Ginny down into the Chamber of Secrets to lure you there, it's the kind of thing he does, he knows you're the -- the sort of person who'd go to Sirius' aid! What if he's just trying to get you into the Department of Myst--?" .... "But Harry -- what if your dream was -- was just that, a dream?" ..... "But Harry, you've just said it," said Hermione fiercely. "Dumbledore wanted you to learn to shut these things out of your mind, if you'd done Occlumency properly you'd never have seen this ---" OoP, US, 734-735 So Hermione understands that the link can work both ways; Harry's just too emotional at the moment to listen to her. And the only way she could have understood this is if Harry told her. He knows this too; he's just carried away and won't listen. ~Amanda From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 29 03:59:43 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 03:59:43 -0000 Subject: Whoa Nelly! Lots of Snape, was Harry in NEWT Potions Class? In-Reply-To: <001001c3cdb7$bf347060$8458aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87724 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: > In other words, Harry invading Snape's memories in the Pensieve might well > have changed the ground rules and "safety margin" set forth in any original > agreement between Snape and Dumbledore. It may very well be or not. :o) All we can do without book 6 is speculate, right? ;) > And even worse for Dumbledore to have known about it and allowed it, eh? Absolutely, it is much worse. In one night, Dumbledore went down from one of mine most liked characters to one of the most disliked. > In the first Occlumency lesson, when Snape is talking to Harry: > > (Snape speaking) "The important point is that the Dark Lord is now aware > that you are gaining access to his thoughts and feelings. He has also > deduced that the process is likely to work in reverse; that is to say, he > has realized that he might be able to access your thoughts and feelings in > return--" > > "And he might try and make me do things?" asked Harry. "Sir?" he added > hurriedly. > > "He might," said Snape, sounding cold and unconcerned. "Which brings us back > to Occlumency." > > OoP, US, p. 533 > > This seems pretty clear to me, and right up front when they were starting. So far I don't think I will be eating my words yet. I remembered this part, but nowhere Snape mentioned that Voldemort may be trying to put false visions in Harry's mind, only that connection between them grew, which was obvious indeed. To make Harry listen, something more drastic was needed and Snape did not mention this part. Yes, Hermione pretty much figured it out, she is the smartest witch in her year after all. :o) Ideally, Dumbledore should have told him, but... Alla From hannahwonder at aol.com Mon Dec 29 05:16:45 2003 From: hannahwonder at aol.com (hannahwonder at aol.com) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 00:16:45 EST Subject: The alternative way to the potions NEWT Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87725 Neri wrote: >OotP (US), p. 665: "Professor McGonagall got to her feet, too, and in her case this was a much more impressive move: she towered over Professor Umbridge. 'Potter,' she said in ringing tones, 'I will assist you to become an Auror if it is the last thing I do! If I have to coach you nightly, I will make sure you achieve the required results!" Now this was pretty resolute, wouldn't you say? True, McGonagall is the transfiguration teacher, but I dare say she is up to NEWT level in potions too, and (no offense Snape fans) is also better with teaching. And between McGonagall and Hermione coaching him, Harry's problem is not how to get an E in the NEWT, but how to get an evening off from privet potions lessons. In OotP it was made clear that OWLs and NEWTs are conducted by the MoM, not by the Hogwarts teachers. Do you have to be in the official NEWT class in order to take the NEWT? Perhaps not, especially if the headmaster and deputy are both on your side.< Hannah (me): I thought this was mostly a reasonable suggestion, except for one thing. I would imagine the average student would have to still get the required score on the OWL to take a NEWT class, regardless of whether he or she took it from Snape or privately, to be sure the student had the proper knowledge to take it on. Harry, as per usual, is a little different from the average student and McGonagall's declaration makes him perhaps an exception to this. So, I was all set to agree with you when I read the last sentence: "? the headmaster and deputy are both on your side." I realise there is a wide variety of opinions as to Dumbledore's true feelings and motivations, but I can't see him supporting Harry's private lessons in a subject that is already taught in a regular class. He hasn't given Harry many special privileges beyond those of any other Hogwarts student (besides, of course, the Nimbus 2001 in first year) and in my opinion - well - I can't see him allowing Harry to take a special course because he didn't meet qualifications that every other student must abide by. But on the hand, if Dumbledore learned of McGongall's promise, he might have no choice but to allow it. So, would he or wouldn't he? I suppose I can't decide, but it was just a thought that came to mind. Hannah From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Mon Dec 29 05:31:09 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 05:31:09 -0000 Subject: Harry normal (Was: Re: The alternative way to the potions NEWT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87726 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, EnsTren at a... wrote:...he's not a normal boy, he's a boy that basically IS the front line... The Sergeant Majorette says Harry is *absolutely* a normal boy. It the stuff that's going on around him that's abnormal, and he can't understand why. If Harry had been a typical Hero Guy, the minute he touched Godric's sword, he'd have been inspired to raise it over his head, point it to the heavens and cry out "By the Power of Greyskull.." Oh, wait, that's He-Man. He-man is a cartoon guy inspired by an action figure. So imagine 11- yr.-old Harry in his closet playing with his action figures (like he does in the first movie), thinking "Mighty Guy says 'Harry Potter! I have been sent to help you!' Kill Dudley! Make Uncle Vernon wear a dress! Smack Aunt Petunia with a bunch of dog poo! 'Your wish is my command Harry Potter for you are the true Prince of the Mighty Realm!' Pow! Aaargh! Dudley goes down, splat! Blood and guts and blubber everywhere!..." And then it really happens. He's trapped in a D&D alternate universe where you point a stick at your mean big brother and go "Bang-bang" and he actually dies, screaming in agony. Whoa. What-the-Flake... And now, the icing on the cake: his hormones are starting to percolate. If Harry *weren't* normal, he'd surely have shot up a fast food place or two by now. --JDR From siskiou at msn.com Mon Dec 29 07:02:57 2003 From: siskiou at msn.com (Susanne) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:02:57 -0800 Subject: Fairness? was Re: [HPforGrownups] The alternative way to the potions NEWT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <691281520.20031228230257@msn.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87727 Hi, Sunday, December 28, 2003, 1:27:30 PM, nkafkafi wrote: quoting from OoP: > 'Potter,' she said in ringing tones, 'I will assist you to > become > an Auror if it is the last thing I do! If I have to coach you > nightly, I will make sure you achieve the required results!" I realize why McGonagall said this, but still, it makes me wonder about other students, who could benefit from some private tutoring. This is not the only time Harry receives special training (understandably), but do we ever hear of any other Hogwarts' students who get tutoring? Neville could certainly have used some help, especially in his first few years, and I'm sure there are others... -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at msn.com Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From dfran at sbcglobal.net Mon Dec 29 09:44:21 2003 From: dfran at sbcglobal.net (Dfran) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 01:44:21 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Renamed and Slightly Improved Humongous Bigfile References: Message-ID: <001501c3cdf0$567bb9a0$6501a8c0@vnnyca.adelphia.net> No: HPFGUIDX 87728 This has nothing to deal this the original e'mail you sent me regarding grammar corrections for a posting for HPforGU.... I am switching i'net providers and I need to change my sign up info... I'd like to do it w/o going through the initiation again... Any help you can give will be provided. (I've been waiting on yahoo for two weeks now--heavy sigh---). From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Dec 29 12:55:29 2003 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 12:55:29 -0000 Subject: What if the Weasley's are the heir's of Slytherin? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87729 Is it possible that the Weasley's are the heir's of Slytherin? Voldemort may be an heir of Slytherin, but what if the Weasley's are too? In OOTP Sirius tells Harry that pure bloods are all related. Maybe the Weasley's are related to Salazar Slytherin?! In book 2 Voldemort was not the one to open the chamber of secrets, his diary was; and Tom Riddle wasn't human yet so the only way the chamber was opened was via the body of Ginny--another Slytherin heir? What's interesting in book two is that the diary (or rather Tom Riddle) can only be reborn via sucking the life out of Ginny. Maybe he needed to specifically use a Slytherin heir to be reborn again. And why did Riddle choose Ginny anyway? He could have picked any other kid, like Malfoy, who is also a pureblood (he would have been only to happy to open the chamber). So why choose a Weasley? In book 2 when Collin Creevey is petrified, Dumbledore says to McGonagal: 'The question is not who has done this, but how?' Dumbledore knows that Voldemort is not in the school at this time, but he doesn't know that the diary exists; so, he must know that there is another (or other) Slytherin heir(s) at the school. Therefore Dumbledore knows who the heir(s) is (are) but he does not know how the chamber was opened. Hence his remark: 'The question is not who has done this, but how?' It is interesting that Riddle did not choose Ron, George, or Fred to open the chamber (Lucius could have easily put the diary in with their books). He chose Ginny because she was a "silly little girl" (who would not attract attention). I think that Riddle's big mistake was choosing Ginny because I think she is going to turn out to be a very powerful witch. She may also have gained some of Voldie's power via their personal encounter (just like Harry did through his encounter with Voldemort). There is a wizard geneology book back at the OOTP headquarters that someone will probably read in book 6 or 7. Sirius uses the book to smash a spiderlike thing that grabs onto Harry (during the house decontamination section). The book will be mentioned again! It's the only reason why the title of the book would be stated in the first place. Maybe someone will trace back their origins and make a startling discovery. If the Weasley's are descended from Slytherin it would prove that destiny is shaped by the person and not by their heredity. From Anne-TMC-Rcvg.Campbell at tenethealth.com Mon Dec 29 13:10:22 2003 From: Anne-TMC-Rcvg.Campbell at tenethealth.com (Campbell, Anne-TMC-Rcvg) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 07:10:22 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87730 > " Alla" wrote: > Eh? No matter how hard Snape's job is it is nothing in comparison with the bullet Harry is supposed to take for the whole wisarding world - to battle Voldy (and Snape will be included in that) Um....have you paid attention to what DE do to people? Torture, both physical and magical. Things such as beatings, taking people apart piece by piece, using Crucio until the victim turns mad (ALA Neville's parents). They often go after the victims familys and do the same to them....the list goes on. It's only hinted at in examples given by Moody and other Order members, but Snape is in real, mortal danger here. Somehow, he has to balance what he IS (Remember--as far as we all know, by cannon rules--he is a Dumbledore supporter), and what he needs to be for Voldemort, Lucius and the other Death Eaters not to suspect him (IE: A true-blooded, Muggle and Mudblood hating, just as vicious as they are, Death Eater). And somehow, he has to do all this WITHOUT seeming to have lost his nerve in the DE community or getting found out by the same, and yet still remain 'good' enough that he doesn't over-step the line and become an enemy of the Order once more (and therefor thrown out and/or handed over to Azkaban--a fate worse then death should some Dementors remain there). And yeah, he doesn't have to worry about the DE adults at the school...but you know, there's always Draco, who tells his father everything that goes on at the school. And although no others are mentioned, no doubt, in Slytherin at least, there are other DE children who would no doubt run and tell thier parents as well should Severus Snape 'go bad' as far as the DE community is concerned.. And the punishments will be worse for him if he's found out. Becuase, quite frankly, Old Voldy is the WORST of tyrants--and no tyrant likes to be betrayed. They tend to get very vindictive and very nasty very quickly. Not to mention, he will need to make an example of Sev--not only to assage his own outrage, but to keep the other DE in line and keep them from getting brave enough to get any ideas of thier own. He won't be above seeing just how far he can push Severus torture wise before he finally deigns to let the Professor die in order to reach that goal. Granted, that won't save the wizarding world--but it is still a valid 'bullet' to consider. As for Harry (and this topic is already being covered), remember that the prophecy states that "One may not live while the other exists". It doesn't say "Harry must fight Voldemort in mortal combat, and one of them will die"--that's an assumption on the fans part. It would seem a reasonable conclusion, but none of us are JK Rowling, and so we havent a real clue where she's going with it all. Also consider this: Although Harry is 'featured' in this prophecy in direct conflict with Voldy...it does not negate that fact that others are also laying thier lives on the line for this 'war'--such as the Order members. Arthur Weasley almost died keeping watch over the MOM room, others HAVE died in the past fighting against Voldy--and long before Harry was on the scene. Also, remember, nine times out of ten, when Harry *has*directly dealt with Voldy--he's had help in some way, shape or form. Harry may be the visible hero....but it takes more than just him to get this whole thing going, and no doubt it will take a lot of people to end it. Harry will get the kudos, but others should get credit too...including Snape, if he manages to stay on the same side for the whole series. It is abuse in my book . It is even abuse by your definition - hementally torments Harry and Neville (poor Neville I think believes that he can not perform well in the potions class). Even though I live in the States now, I come from the educational system, which used to give the teacher MUCH more latitude in dealing with the students and even by that standards it is the worst kind of emotional abuse. We're talking about degrees here. We're also talking about opinions that have changed drastically over the past two decades as to what consistutes abuse, both in the states and abroad. It used to be common even in US public schools for the teachers to smack a student's knuckles with a ruler if they got out of hand (and before the turn of the century, if a teacher chose to take a student over thier knee to decipline them, no one batted an eye, including the parents). NOwadays, if a parent OR teacher looks cross-eyed at a child, and someone misinterprets it, suddenly, the child is considered abused, and a whole mess begins. If you smakc you child in public because they;re misbehaiving, and someone sees it and doesn;t like it, you cna actaully find child services on your case. The point is, things have changed drastically, and not necassarily for the better. Now, as for the definiton of abuse...let me see if I can define it a bit better--and show you the degrees, using an example from the books... We'll use an example from book 3 (keep in mindf guys I have the American edition, so I may be missing a few bits of info the UK books carry). Alright....this was when Neville messed up his shrinking potion--this is what Snape said to him: "Orange, Longbottom. Orange. Tell me, boy, does anything pentrate that thick skull of yours? Didn''t you hear me say, quite clearly, that one rat spleen was needed? Didn't I state plainly that a dash of leech juice would suffice? What do I have to do to make you understand, Longbottom?" Alright....here's where it starts...and this is a typical Snape reaction to things happening in his class--it is also how he tends to relate to Harry, since this is often the tone he takes with the 'hero' of the series. It's a bit disapproving, even exasperating, from Snape's POV....and it's also things you hear, even from a 'kind' parent when a child continuosly makes the same, or the same type of mistakes. Neville is naturally nervous anyway, thanks to his 'formidable' Grandmother, who appearently also pushes him to do much better than he does--of course he;s going to turn pink and look like he;s going to cry. Even though at this stage, Snape is not really having anymore of an abusive reaction than most adults, Neville has his own ghosts to deal with that feed into his reaction to Snape, including fear and embarassment. Now, arguably, Snape goes on to more abusive measures: "Longbottom, at the end of this lesson, we will feed a few drops of this potion to your toad and see what happens. Perhaps that will encourage you to do it properly." Okay...so now Neville has the added stress of tryong to fix his potion before its fed to Trevor. You can see where it seems like abuse...however. Snape gives Neville time to fix the potion. And although he tells Granger not to help--he knows Hermione well enough that chances are the girl will help anyway. She can't help not helping. If Snape is any judge of character (and he would have to be to have successfully been a spy for Dumbledore as long as he has been), he already knew that. And if Hermione should fail to help rectify the situation--well, there's a;ways another pocket with the quick remedy for the poison that will be running through Trevor's veins. Just because we didn't see that (because it wasn;t needed), doesn;t mean he didn't have the remedy ready if things did go wrong. Now, the abusive version of that scenario would have been more along the lines of: "Obviously, Neville, you haven't a single clue of what you are doing. And although I've spent the better part of three years teaching you, you obviously are too stupid to get it. So, as a lesson--give me your toad. Now." **Gets class to gather round** "This, students, is what happens when you do not pay attention" **Feeds the unaltered potion to Trevor...who is now poisoned, and may even die. Does nothing to reverse the potions effects and leaves the ailing/dying toad with Neville** "No grade for you, Longbottom, unless you cna somehow conjure up a ressurection draught by the end of class" *Smiles nastily* "...Oh, and 20 points to Gryffindor for having such an uneducatable dolt in thier House..." *THAT* my friend, is abuse. Although Snape is abrasive, sharp tongued, and snarky, he still gave Neville the chance (even if it was under the table). To correct his mistake. It wasn't gentle, it wasn't kind, but it got the point across. There are consequences for not paying attention and letting your fears get in the way of what you're doing. It's much the same technique that the military uses in thier basic training courses. You get put down a lot, your faults are paraded for all to see, you get treated a little roughly. And you either learn ways to get around it (because your enemy, should you end up in a wartime situation, will be much, much worse then this), or you wash out. Quite frankly, Harry and Neville cannot afford to wash out.Although young, they are still the targets of evil adults--and need to be able to deal with those adults in an adult manner. And Dumbledore is not teaching them how to deal with that eventuality either. As, I believe Amanda pointed out yesterday, Dumbledore, when he is around, is more often than not cast as the "kindly Grandfather"--a role, that though comforting for Harry--doesn't really help him to learn to deal with the realities of the people he is going up agianst. In fact, Dumbly often seems to present mroe questions than answers for Harry to deal with (and he even admits this at the end of book 5). By contrast, that leaves Snape to do the 'dirty' deed of showing Harry (and Neville) what it will very likely be like to deal with his former Death Eater allies. Sev knows what his former friends can do... As for bullying...I don't really see it that way. When Snape goes after Harry--it is to point out his faults (Won't listen when people tell him to stay put, talks back to teachers, thinks he is above the rules and does want he wants regardless--typical teen behaivior yes--but Harry is NOT the typical teen, and has things he must do that no other teen has to deal with). Granted, those 'faults' are often what gets the job dine in each book, but it still puts Harry (and those around him) in extreme danger--a point that is badly presented by Snape, and badly recieved by Harry. But Snape doesn't swoop out of his classroom to look for Harry constantly just to put him down--he'll take advantage of a blunder done in front of him by Harry and Co., but doesn't go looking for it. Unlike Draco, who so made Ron's life a misery every step that he was on the Quddich team, that you couldn't get away from the nasty songs and snide remarks (now that's a bully).. But again, it is a question of degree--and in my own experience, what Snape does is strict, a little mean, certainly Snarky....but compared to the very real abuse I grew up with--it's negligible. Anyhow....I do repsect your opinion...and looking at this, we may have to agree to disagree....;) Anne [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 29 13:24:12 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 13:24:12 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87731 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Campbell, Anne-TMC-Rcvg" wrote: but Snape is in real, mortal danger here. Somehow, he has to balance what he IS (Remember--as far as we all know, by cannon rules--he is a Dumbledore supporter), and what he needs to be for Voldemort, Lucius and the other Death Eaters not to suspect him (IE: A true-blooded, Muggle and Mudblood hating, just as vicious as they are, Death Eater). And somehow, he has to do all this WITHOUT seeming to have lost his nerve in the DE community or getting found out by the same, and yet still remain 'good' enough that he doesn't over-step the line and become an enemy of the Order once more (and therefor thrown out and/or handed over to Azkaban--a fate worse then death should some Dementors remain there). And yeah, he doesn't have to worry about the DE adults at the school...but you know, there's always Draco, who tells his father everything that goes on at the school. And although no others are mentioned, no doubt, in Slytherin at least, there are other DE children who would no doubt run and tell thier parents as well should Severus Snape 'go bad' as far as the DE community is concerned.. > Yes, we may have to agree to disagree. I just want to make one comment. Snape is in danger indeed and I respect him for that, but may I remind you that he brought all of this on himself. He took this job to atone for his past sins and even the fact that he does it is great, but it is not like he joined as a spy from the beginning. It is reasonable assumption to make that he commited all these montrocities himself. Harry on the other hand did not ask for any of this, most of all to be the boy from prophecy, so in my mind although I give Snape due respect, I sympathise with Harry much more. About the abuse, we definitely have to agree to disagree. Alla From TonyaMinton at hotmail.com Mon Dec 29 14:01:35 2003 From: TonyaMinton at hotmail.com (tonyaminton) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 14:01:35 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Renamed and Slightly Improved Humongous Bigfile In-Reply-To: <001501c3cdf0$567bb9a0$6501a8c0@vnnyca.adelphia.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87732 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dfran" wrote: > This has nothing to deal this the original e'mail you sent me regarding > grammar corrections for a posting for HPforGU.... > > I am switching i'net providers and I need to change my sign up info... > > I'd like to do it w/o going through the initiation again... > > Any help you can give will be provided. (I've been waiting on yahoo for two > weeks now--heavy sigh---). Dfran: Good luck!! I have tried for the past 3 weeks to change my email addy and I had to unsub and resub and now I am back on the initiation again and I am still not getting any posts to my new email addy!! I know how you feel!! I am very sad indeed!! Tonya From klekatgirl at yahoo.com Mon Dec 29 15:59:10 2003 From: klekatgirl at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 15:59:10 -0000 Subject: Dudley's friends = James' friends? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87733 I am positive that Dudley's friend Piers is a parallel to James' friend Peter. This is because Piers looks like a rat and Piers is French for Peter. However, I'm wondering if any other of Dudley's friends would correspond to Black and Lupin. What about James? Is Dudley like James? What do we know about Gordon, Malcolm, and Dennis? Karen From derek at rhinobunny.com Mon Dec 29 16:20:46 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 08:20:46 -0800 Subject: Did Lucius really give Ginny the diary? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031229080302.022f0db0@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87734 According to the Official Story(tm), Ginny Weasley acquired Tom Riddle's diary in CS from Lucius Malfoy, who supposedly slipped it into her cauldron at Flourish and Blotts. But did he really? Looking closely at CS chapter 4, we see that Lucius takes a book *out* of Ginny's cauldron, but he doesn't put it (or any other book) back in. He hands it back to her. The only person we're specifically told put books in Ginny's cauldron is *Harry*. He dumps the collected works of Lockhart in there, and says he'll buy his own. Is it possible that *Lockhart* had the diary and gave it to Harry in the pile with Lockhart's books, and that the diary ended up with Ginny only by accident? Diary!Riddle was thrilled to eventually wind up with Harry... what if that was the original plan? Lockhart's certainly no angel. Although he doesn't seem to be a Death Eater per se, he's definitely not a nice guy. (If Neville is memory charmed, could Lockhart have been working with LV's forces and performed the charm years ago?) True, Dobby does later indicate that the diary was Malfoy's. However... 1. Just 'cause Dobby says it's so doesn't mean it really is. Dobby might be *assuming* it came from Malfoy. 2. Malfoy and Lockhart could have been in cahoots. Perhaps the "important business" Malfoy mentions to Borgin is giving the diary to Lockhart to plant on Harry... not Malfoy himself slipping it to Ginny. 3. We see later that Malfoy gives generously to St. Mungo's. Perhaps he wants to ensure that Lockhart doesn't recover enough of his memory to implicate Malfoy further. Any thoughts? - Derek From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Dec 29 16:47:43 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 16:47:43 -0000 Subject: Just suppose Snape is at the heart of it all In-Reply-To: <20031228233056.42371.qmail@web25110.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87735 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Karen Reid wrote: > 'The official record was re-labelled after Voldemort's attack on you as a child,' said Dumbledore. 'It seemed plain to the keeper of the Hall of Prophecy that Voldemort could only have tried to kill you because he knew you to be the one to whom Sybill was referring.' > > I can't help wondering if Professor McGonagall would consider the filing of prophecies just as imprecise as the study of them (pg 85 UK PoA). > > 'Then - it might not be me?' said Harry. > > 'I am afraid,' said Dumbledore slowly, looking as though every word cost him a great effort, 'that there is no doubt that it is you.' > > I'm afraid this "great effort" malarkey sits just as uncomfortably with me as his "twinkle" did in GoF. It's gonna be a long wait for book 6! > That damn Prophesy again! Even worse - that damn Prophesy again and having to rely on Dumbledore again! Can you think of a worse combination of sources to derive the truth from? OK, my first rule of HP analysis is not to accept the unsupported word of DD as anything but the most convenient gloss available to DD at the time. It may be true; it may be partly true; it may be an incomplete truth; it may be a total lie or it may be a cunningly formulated deception. Best ignore it until further evidence comes to light that confirms or refutes. His view is not supported by the of the Ministry; in fact he takes things much further than the MoM is willing to go - 'It seemed plain to the keeper of the Hall of Prophecy that Voldemort could only have tried to kill you because he knew you to be the one to whom Sybill was referring.' Really? It's so plain to the Ministry that they stick a question mark in there. But that might be an inconvenient detail, so he slides round it. Again. The Prophesy is also misleading, but only in our understanding of what a 'prophecy' is and what the Ministry is doing by filing them away in the manner it does. I went into this in some detail a few months back, but it might be worth repeating now that the subject has re-surfaced again. At least it will give everyone a fresh opportunity to tell me my reasoning is faulty and that I'm talking a load of tripe. Let's list what we know: A prophecy can only be considered to be accurate after the events it 'foretells' have occured *as predicted*. It was pronouced by Trelawney, who until that moment had never produced one before. It was heard in its original recitation by Dumbledore *only*. (Why does that rouse my suspicions?) The Prophecy names no-one except Voldemort. It is vague (or to be kind, obscure) to the point of incomprehensibility. Now let's list what we can assume: DD reported the Prophecy to the Ministry as being of interest or moment. DD or the Ministry englobed it, presumably by transfer from the pensieve. Since Sybill has no track record on the accuracy of her prophecies (never having produced one before), the MoM cannot determine how seriously it should be taken. It is therefore stored pending developments that may or may not determine its accuracy. The Ministry decides who it refers to and thus who can access it. Since Harry (or Neville) had yet to be born, their names weren't on it. Something happened which decided the Ministry to put Harry's name on the label (albeit with a query) and not Neville. That 'something' must be predicted in the Prophecy. Even so, the 'something is *not* definitive otherwise the query would have been removed. Are we agreed on everything so far? Now we come to the more contentious bits. What made the Ministry put Harry on the label? It could be one of two things: "..mark as his equal.." Not, you will note "mark him who will become his equal" Was Harry the equal of Voldy, even as a babe in arms? Since Voldy was reduced to magical and physical impotence it could be argued that the answer was "yes." Since then Voldy has regained his lost powers and Harry has started the long road to wizardhood, but Harry is most definitely not the equal of Voldy *as a wizard*. Sure, Harry has escaped his clutches a few times, more by luck than judgement, but that does not mean he has equal powers. or, more of a stretch, "..neither can live while the other survives.." (A possible interpretation of this is that the "neither" could be James and Lily, the "other" being Harry. Yes, I know you don't agree with me, but my devious mind notes that the parents of the possible Voldy!Bane get an oblique reference earlier on - "..born to those.." Why not again?) Whichever one you prefer, the Ministry is not yet totally convinced and they probably won't be until Voldy is brought down. Then the Prophecy will be viewed with all the certainty that hindsight gives. "Oh, yes! It obviously means that! It must do because that's what happened." What is more interesting is that it may be Voldy who is giving credence to the damn prophesy after all. If he or his henchwizards had ignored hints from whoever overheard the Prophecy and not gone after the Potters (or the Longbottoms) then he would probably have been Head Honcho years ago. But there is a chance, only a small one, I'll admit, that the Prophecy does not refer to Harry and his scar. For example, there is no time limit on when the "mark as his equal" must occur. It could happen in the next book. To anyone. Alternatively the whole Prophecy thing could be Dumbledore playing mind games with Voldy. Depressing, isn't it? Kneasy From andie1 at earthlink.net Mon Dec 29 17:05:31 2003 From: andie1 at earthlink.net (grindieloe) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 17:05:31 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Renamed and Slightly Improved Humongous Bigfile In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87736 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tonyaminton" wrote: > > Good luck!! I have tried for the past 3 weeks to change my email > addy and I had to unsub and resub and now I am back on the initiation > again and I am still not getting any posts to my new email addy!! I > know how you feel!! I am very sad indeed!! > My internet service provider just got bought out as well, thus my new email address. What I did seemed to work, so I'll pass it on... I went to Edit My Membership at the top right hand side of the screen. Then, I clicked on Add New Email Address. (I added my new one.) After applying changes, I went back to Edit My Membership and saw that that email had to be verified. So I clicked on Verify and Yahoo sent me an email to verify my address. (You have to click on a link to get back to yahoo from within that email.) When I got to Yahoo from the link, I set my email address to the new email since both were still listed. That seemed to work for me. I hope it works for you. Andrea From kawfhw at earthlink.net Mon Dec 29 20:20:16 2003 From: kawfhw at earthlink.net (Ken and Faith Wallace) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 12:20:16 -0800 Subject: Question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87737 Just wondering if anyone on this list has bought and read New Clues to Harry Potter Book 5 - Hints from the Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter? Are we allowed to talk about this book on the listserv? I've been reading it and would like to talk to some people who have also read and pondered the potential "clues" - Faith _____ Carter: You look okay to me. Why don't you try a glass of warm milk? Teal'c: I would prefer not to consume bovine lactose at any temperature. (Stargate SG1, Challenging) From TonyaMinton at hotmail.com Mon Dec 29 17:36:15 2003 From: TonyaMinton at hotmail.com (tonyaminton) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 17:36:15 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Renamed and Slightly Improved Humongous Bigfile In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87738 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grindieloe" wrote: > > > My internet service provider just got bought out as well, thus my new > email address. What I did seemed to work, so I'll pass it on... > > I went to Edit My Membership at the top right hand side of the > screen. Then, I clicked on Add New Email Address. (I added my new > one.) After applying changes, I went back to Edit My Membership and > saw that that email had to be verified. So I clicked on Verify and > Yahoo sent me an email to verify my address. (You have to click on a > link to get back to yahoo from within that email.) When I got to > Yahoo from the link, I set my email address to the new email since > both were still listed. That seemed to work for me. I hope it works > for you. > > Andrea Andrea, Yep!! did all that!! The mods have been very helpful in trying to make it work!! Oh and I did find out that the mod's knew that I had to unsub and resub so they did not put me back on the iniation, they are wonderful!! Tonya From meriaugust at yahoo.com Mon Dec 29 17:53:17 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 17:53:17 -0000 Subject: Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87739 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ken and Faith Wallace wrote: > Just wondering if anyone on this list has bought and read New Clues to Harry > Potter Book 5 - Hints from the Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of > Harry Potter? Are we allowed to talk about this book on the listserv? I've > been reading it and would like to talk to some people who have also read and > pondered the potential "clues" - Faith Meri here: I recieved it for a Christmas gift and have just finnished it, thought I am not sure if we can discuss it on the list, it may be too OT for this particular group. Meri From afleitas at bankrate.com Mon Dec 29 18:35:42 2003 From: afleitas at bankrate.com (kneazelkid) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 18:35:42 -0000 Subject: Help! The twins and the bet Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87740 I can't find the answer by searching the posts, so I was hoping someone could help me. It's driving me bonkers. Question: In GoF, how did the twins know the outcome of the game? Has this ever been decided? Did I just miss it? Thanks, Kneazelkid From sam2sar at charter.net Mon Dec 29 18:58:25 2003 From: sam2sar at charter.net (sam2sar) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 18:58:25 -0000 Subject: Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87741 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ken and Faith Wallace > wrote: > > Just wondering if anyone on this list has bought and read New > Clues to Harry > > Potter Book 5 - Hints from the Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the > Mysteries of > > Harry Potter? Are we allowed to talk about this book on the > listserv? I've > > been reading it and would like to talk to some people who have > also read and > > pondered the potential "clues" - Faith > > Meri here: > I recieved it for a Christmas gift and have just finnished it, > thought I am not sure if we can discuss it on the list, it may be > too OT for this particular group. > Meri If you go the web site associated with the book it directs you to a discussion group for it. Have fun Sam From derek at rhinobunny.com Mon Dec 29 18:48:05 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 10:48:05 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Help! The twins and the bet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031229104700.0262e2f0@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87742 kneazelkid wrote: >I can't find the answer by searching the posts, so I was hoping >someone could help me. It's driving me bonkers. >Question: In GoF, how did the twins know the outcome of the game? Has >this ever been decided? Did I just miss it? Derek: It doesn't appear to be spelled out in the books. Time travel is one common hypothesis. - Derek From CoyotesChild at charter.net Mon Dec 29 20:39:06 2003 From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 14:39:06 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Help! The twins and the bet In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031229104700.0262e2f0@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: <000101c3ce4b$d129c330$4e60bf44@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 87743 > kneazelkid wrote: > >I can't find the answer by searching the posts, so I was hoping > >someone could help me. It's driving me bonkers. > >Question: In GoF, how did the twins know the outcome of the game? Has > >this ever been decided? Did I just miss it? > > Derek: > It doesn't appear to be spelled out in the books. Time travel is one > common hypothesis. > Iggy de-lurking for a moment here: *sigh* Or it could be that, as big a Quidditch fan family as the Weasleys are, Fred and George would be willing to bet the odds on figuring that Ireland was the better overall team, but Krum was the better Seeker. Considering Krum's skill, it's a pretty easy bet if you also look at the team point records during the season... it's just that Fred and George were the ones to work with the team *and* individual player track records... and the only ones to trust their knowledge of the game enough to make the bet. (As for the time travel theory... I think people are reading too much into a simple bet. Any die hard sports fan would be able to calculate a bet like that pretty easily.) Iggy McSnurd (PS: If the "Quidditch World Cup" video game I got for Christmas is any indication, this would prove to be very true. Krum has beaten my Seeker every time I've played against Bulgaria, but I've won every game against them by making a lot more goals.) From jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk Mon Dec 29 19:57:26 2003 From: jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk (jotwo2003) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 19:57:26 -0000 Subject: Other associations of the name Regulus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87744 The star associations of the name Regulus have been discussed. I've done some research and found some other connections. Regulus is a real name that was used by the Romans. Microsoft Encarta has the following entry about an historical figure called Regulus. Regulus, Marcus Atilius (died about 250 BC), Roman military leader remembered as a martyred patriot. He first became a consul in 267 BC and fought as a strong and uncompromising commander. In the First Punic War (264-241 BC), he commanded a Roman fleet which defeated that of Carthage in 256, and he later attacked the enemy on land in Africa. The Carthaginians defeated his forces the next year, however, and Regulus was captured. Five years later he was sent to Rome by the Carthaginians to discuss peace terms or an exchange of prisoners. He gave his captors his word that he would return to Carthage if his mission failed. Disregarding his own safety, he urged the Roman Senate to refuse peace and voluntarily returned to Carthage, where he was reportedly tortured and put to death. I saw a TV programme on BBC2 a few weeks ago that briefly mentioned another Roman named Regulus. I can't remember the name but it features a computer simulation about battles where a team tries to re- fight a battle and win. This was a battle between Romans and the Gauls in 225BC IIRC. The Gauls lost in the end but not before one of the Roman commanders, Regulus, was captured and beheaded, and his head sent back to the Romans. There is also a Regulus in the Christian tradition. St Andrew, one of the apostles, is said to have been martyred in Greece. When Emperor Constantine the Great became Christian he wanted to re-bury the Apostle's bones in Rome. However a monk had a dream in which he was told to gather up as many of St Andrew's bones as he could find and take them to the end of the earth. (Another version says this happened in the 8th century.) Anyway, the monk duly did so and took ship. The ship was wrecked on the Fife coast of Scotland and that is supposedly how St Andrew became the patron saint of Scotland. The main point of the story is that the monk's name was St Rule or St Regulus. Being associated with a saint and a Roman hero, if Regulus Black turns out to still be alive, as fans suspect, then, if he lives up to his name, he should be one of the good guys. JoTwo From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Mon Dec 29 20:19:32 2003 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 20:19:32 -0000 Subject: Help! The twins and the bet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87745 "kneazelkid" wrote: > Question: In GoF, how did the twins know the outcome of the game? Has > this ever been decided? Did I just miss it? I don't think it was ever said, but a couple of speculations have been made. First, that they somehow can time travel. This brings up the question about the device Hermione used in PoA and could it be used to travel in the future. The twins certainly are resourceful and powerful wizards. They may have stumbled upon something in their many experimentations. Or, they may have connections with someone who can either time travel or see the future. Second, some have posted a hypothesis about Ron being a seer. What if one or both twins were seers? Could they foresee something as specific as the result of a world cup match? Being identical twins, could their powers be combined in ways that make them more powerful? I don't know of any other ideas but certainly would be open to them. From the two mentioned, I would have to lean more toward the first. Julie From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Mon Dec 29 21:18:37 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 21:18:37 -0000 Subject: What if the Weasley's are the heir's of Slytherin? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87746 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: Is it possible that the Weasleys are the heirs of Slytherin?... The Sergeant Majorette says Glad I'm not the only one who thinks that! And, note that Ginny is a seventh child. (Yes, I know it's generally the seventh of the same gender, but still.) I'd even take it a step further and say that Harry also has a significant amount of Slytherin blood and that Harry is distantly related to the Weasleys. I believe the pureblood/squib/mudblood thing is a misconception that will turn out to be a major theme. My own take is that everybody has *some* magical power but that most people don't know about it and wouldn't bother with it if they did, since in this day and age there are more efficient ways of doing things. So it is possible that Lily has the Slytherin blood. And maybe *she* is distantly related to Molly. And maybe the Dumbledores... (The Red- Headed League). --JDR From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Mon Dec 29 20:49:08 2003 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 20:49:08 -0000 Subject: Fairness? was Re: [HPforGrownups] The alternative way to the potions NEWT In-Reply-To: <691281520.20031228230257@msn.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87747 Susanne wrote: > I realize why McGonagall said this, but still, it makes me > wonder about other students, who could benefit from some > private tutoring. > > This is not the only time Harry receives special training > (understandably), but do we ever hear of any other Hogwarts' > students who get tutoring? > Hermione received special attention in PoA when she was allowed to time travel to take all the courses. She, of course, didn't need tutoring. Lavender and the other girl (Parvati?) showed an interest in Divination. It is possible they got special attention if not tutoring. It just may not be mentioned because the canon is about Harry, not Hogwart's students in general. Julie From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Mon Dec 29 21:19:07 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 21:19:07 -0000 Subject: FILK: Look What Happened to Myrtle Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87748 This is to Look What Happened to Mabel from Mack and Mabel The midi doesn't include the intro, so I've indicated where the midi starts with the words. The midi is here: http://www.hamienet.com/7652.mid Look What Happened to Myrtle (intro) Miss Four-eyes from Hogwarts who haunts the girl's loo In the place where I took my last breath. Olive Hornby is gone, so what else could I do? I hang out here and contemplate death. (begin midi) See that fascinating spector All the Hogwarts girls at last respect her When they come here to wee It's just wee little me But Mother of Merlin, what happened to Myrtle! I may have passed from flesh to spirit But when you pass gas, you'll know I hear it I'm here in the bend Looking at your back end Godrick and Helga, what happened to Myrtle! I used to be a weepy weakling, when I died But now I'm a force again. Came in here to find a quiet place to hide And now I'm in porcelain! Pull that chain, I know what's coming Because I'm the Queen of Hogwarts Plumbing I was plain little Tilly But I see your willy So rattle me beads Look what happened to Myrtle! Tease me when my face was spotty, For revenge, I got you on the potty! And the girl with the glasses Is tickling asses It's somethin' to see. Look what happened to Myrtle! When I hear the sound of flushing Gotta hurry with the water rushing If I make a mistake I end up in the Lake. Mother Machree, look what happened to Myrtle! I used to exit Hogwarts on the Hogwarts train But fate is capricious Suddenly I find I'm going down the drain To mermen and fishes St. Aloysius! You might say something rude and scathing That I'm watching prefects when they're bathing. But without flesh or bones I've got teenage hormones. Jumpin' St Jude Look what happened to Myrtle! ~ Constance Vigilance, who had great fun with this one! From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Mon Dec 29 21:26:24 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 21:26:24 -0000 Subject: Just suppose Snape is at the heart of it all In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87749 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: ...Alternatively the whole Prophecy thing could be Dumbledore playing mind games with Voldy. Depressing, isn't it? The Sergeant Majorette says Oh, no, certainly not depressing! Dumbledore messing with poor Tommy Marvel's head for no other reason than plain bad-spirited fun just perks me right up. What depresses me is all that "power of love" treacle. --JDR From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Mon Dec 29 22:02:43 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 17:02:43 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) References: <4FDCB878.4A943839.4B073798@aol.com> Message-ID: <001d01c3ce57$7c8ae5a0$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> No: HPFGUIDX 87750 I'm combining a few posts here. Oryomai said: (about Harry thanking Snape for the broom incident) Because it's the right thing to do. It doesn't matter what the other person says or does about being thanked, it's the fact that you did it. It's not supposed to make Severus feel better, it's to make Harry feel better. Joj says: I hardly think thanking Snape would make Harry feel better. Wouldn't Snape just love that! There is no way he would gracefully accept his thanks. Snape is not even aware that Harry knows he did this, so it's not hurting Snape to not have gotten thanked for it. Oryomai said: Right, I missed the bulletin that said Severus was the Devil...must look for it later. Didn't Dumbledore go in the Forest? After Severus alerted everyone, do we know that Dumbledore didn't tell him to stay inside the school? By the time Severus was able to alert everyone, would Harry and Co. still have been in the Forest? How would Severus have found them anyway? And more importantly, would Harry have believed Severus? Joj: Nobody has said Snape is the devil, but he has done awful things in his past, and he is not a hero. Who's fault is it that Harry doesn't trust Snape? Has Snape ever given Harry a single reason to trust him, especially about Sirius? Oryomi: It is Severus' job to protect Harry, or is it him trying to repay his life debt? I don't expect any of my teachers to take a bullet for me. It's their job to do as much as possible, but I also think an apology would be nice. Joj: If a gunman went into one of my children's school, yes I would expect them to do anything they could to save them, even sacrifices themselves. It is their job. I'm not even a teacher, and I would do it. Yeah, maybe an apology would be nice, but I hardly think Snapes suffering form the lack of it. I'm just trying to have a friendly conversation here. I hope you don't get personal with me, like you did with Fredwaldrop. It's ok to see things differently. That's what I love about this list! Joj [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Dec 29 22:04:46 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 22:04:46 -0000 Subject: Fairness? was Re: [HPforGrownups] The alternative way to the potions NEWT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87751 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drjuliehoward" wrote: > Susanne wrote: > > > ... makes me wonder about other students, who could benefit from > > some private tutoring. > > > > ... do we ever hear of any other Hogwarts' students who get > > tutoring? > > > Julie > > Hermione received special attention in PoA ... > > Lavender and the other girl (Parvati?) ... in Divination. ... got > special attention if not tutoring. > > It just may not be mentioned because the canon is about Harry, not > Hogwart's students in general. > > Julie bboy_mn: I agree with Julie, there are many many things in the book that we find ourselves wondering about, and the answers to these ponderances is that since Harry doesn't see them, we don't see them. Example: I have always believed, and the most recent book (OoP) confirms, that there are many social, special interest, and academic clubs at Hogwarts that take place outside of normal school hours. My interest and belief in this stems from wondering why Ron has never joined the Chess Club. There is a Gobstones Club as we see from the latest book, so logically there would be, as I suspected, a Chess Club. I think one of the reasons that motivates Ron's choices is the Twins; it the Twins might not approve then Ron doesn't want to have anything to do with 'IT', whatever 'it' may be. Ron sees the way Fred and George treat Percy, that's a pretty strong message to a young boy that anything Fred and George don't approve of, is going to come with a heap of misery attached. We see, and hear Hermione say, that Ron is much better of without the Twins influence. It is no coincidence that Ron's best game was played when the Twins were off the team. Back to the original point, I suspect there may be upper classmen who would be willing to tutor students either at the 'request' of a teachter and/or for a price. So yes, I think tutoring goes on, but so far, other than the examples cited, we have never seen them because Harry has never seen them. Just a thought. bboy_mn From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Dec 29 22:21:58 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 22:21:58 -0000 Subject: Just suppose Snape is at the heart of it all In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87752 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" > wrote: ...Alternatively the whole Prophecy thing could be Dumbledore > playing mind games with Voldy. > Depressing, isn't it? > > The Sergeant Majorette says > > Oh, no, certainly not depressing! Dumbledore messing with poor Tommy > Marvel's head for no other reason than plain bad-spirited fun just > perks me right up. What depresses me is all that "power of love" > treacle. > We can agree on that all right. And don't talk to me of love; "Stay me with flagons, comfort me with apples, for I am sick of love." Poisonous stuff. Been the ruin of many a good bloke. No, what depresses me is that I can't see any way to eliminate any of the alternative explanations as to what's going on with the Prophecy until we get more information. All we have are Dumbledore's explanations - there is *no* other source. Everything about the Prophecy comes from him. There doesn't seem to be anyone else around that can independently confirm that it exists with the subject matter and content as claimed by DD. Not even a smidgeon of confirmation of the contents when the globe broke in the Ministry. By some strange(!) chance not a single word of the Prophecy was heard. Somewhere there is (should be) the eaves-dropper who told Voldy that he'd heard a line or two; but we don't know who that is either. Friend of DD, do you think? Could be, because it certainly stopped Voldy from getting on with the job of taking over the world. Quite a happy coincidence, wasn't it? It's things like this that raise my paranoia index to unhealthy levels. I feel that I'm being messed about and I'm not happy. Kneasy From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Mon Dec 29 22:25:05 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 22:25:05 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Just suppose Snape is at the heart of it all Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87753 > > > > The Sergeant Majorette says > > > > Oh, no, certainly not depressing! Dumbledore messing with poor Tommy > > Marvel's head for no other reason than plain bad-spirited fun just > > perks me right up. What depresses me is all that "power of love" > > treacle. > > > >We can agree on that all right. And don't talk to me of love; "Stay me with >flagons, comfort me with apples, for I am sick of love." Poisonous stuff. >Been the ruin of many a good bloke. > Been the making of *far* more. JH _________________________________________________________________ Working moms: Find helpful tips here on managing kids, home, work and yourself. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/workingmom.armx From belijako at online.no Mon Dec 29 23:39:50 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 23:39:50 -0000 Subject: Help! The twins and the bet In-Reply-To: <000101c3ce4b$d129c330$4e60bf44@Einstein> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87755 Iggy wrote: > > *sigh* Or it could be that, as big a Quidditch fan family as the > Weasleys are, Fred and George would be willing to bet the odds on > figuring that Ireland was the better overall team, but Krum was the > better Seeker. (As for the time travel theory... I think people are reading too much > into a simple bet. Any die hard sports fan would be able to calculate a > bet like that pretty easily.) Berit replies: Iggy is right of course :-) Fred and George did an educated bet, no doubt about it! No canon suggesting anything else. Berit From dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 29 23:49:26 2003 From: dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com (dudemom_2000) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 23:49:26 -0000 Subject: Help! The twins and the bet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87756 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" wrote: > Iggy wrote: > > > > *sigh* Or it could be that, as big a Quidditch fan family as the > > Weasleys are, Fred and George would be willing to bet the odds on > > figuring that Ireland was the better overall team, but Krum was the better Seeker. > > (As for the time travel theory... I think people are reading too much into a simple bet. Any die hard sports fan would be able to > calculate a bet like that pretty easily.) > > Berit replies: > > Iggy is right of course :-) Fred and George did an educated bet, no doubt about it! No canon suggesting anything else. > > Berit *****\(@@)/***** I also agree. Fred and George have shown us over and over how astute they are. Their only mistake was making the bet with Bagman. Dudemom_2000 *****\(@@)/***** From derek at rhinobunny.com Mon Dec 29 23:48:39 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 15:48:39 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Help! The twins and the bet In-Reply-To: References: <000101c3ce4b$d129c330$4e60bf44@Einstein> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031229154512.01f93c60@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87757 Berit Jakobsen wrote: >Iggy is right of course :-) Fred and George did an educated bet, no >doubt about it! No canon suggesting anything else. Derek: Well, I wouldn't say "no doubt about it." ;-) We also have no canon anywhere else suggesting that the Twins are such compulsive gamblers that they would put every scrap of money they had in the world into a single bet. Granted, the twins are a bit on the wild side. But still... I'd have to be *mighty* sure of something to bet everything I had in the world on it... - Derek From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Dec 30 00:50:55 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 00:50:55 -0000 Subject: Did Lucius really give Ginny the diary? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031229080302.022f0db0@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87758 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Derek Hiemforth wrote: > > Is it possible that *Lockhart* had the diary and gave it to Harry in > the pile with Lockhart's books, and that the diary ended up with Ginny > only by accident? Diary!Riddle was thrilled to eventually wind up with > Harry... what if that was the original plan? Jen: Very compelling thought! I've wondered about Lockhart, how he fits in now that he's reappeared; I'm not convinced of his 'memory problems'--he's definitely capable of fooling people as we've seen. And Lucius! There's another guy who's not as he seems. He is definitely in cahoots with someone besides LV, and Lockhart is as good a guess as any (besides Fudge--why not all three in cahoots together, come to think of it?!). Derek: True, Dobby does later indicate that the diary was Malfoy's. However... 1. Just 'cause Dobby says it's so doesn't mean it really is. Dobby might be *assuming* it came from Malfoy. 2. Malfoy and Lockhart could have been in cahoots. Perhaps the "important business" Malfoy mentions to Borgin is giving the diary to Lockhart to plant on Harry... not Malfoy himself slipping it to Ginny. 3. We see later that Malfoy gives generously to St. Mungo's. Perhaps he wants to ensure that Lockhart doesn't recover enough of his memory to implicate Malfoy further. Jen: And Dobby does tell Harry in the beginning of COS that *Harry* is in danger, not Mudbloods. So whatever plot Dobby overheard, and he did seem to know Riddle was involved, he thinks or has been led to believe it involves Harry. From ladypensieve at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 01:55:41 2003 From: ladypensieve at yahoo.com (Lady Pensieve) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 01:55:41 -0000 Subject: Help! The twins and the bet In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031229154512.01f93c60@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87759 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Derek Hiemforth wrote: Berit Jakobsen wrote:>Iggy is right of course :-) Fred and George did an educated bet, no doubt about it! No canon suggesting anything else. > Derek: > Well, I wouldn't say "no doubt about it." ;-) We also have no canon anywhere else suggesting that the Twins are such compulsive gamblers that they would put every scrap of money they had in the world into a single bet. Granted, the twins are a bit on the wild side. But still... I'd have to be *mighty* sure of something to bet everything I had in the world on it... > > - Derek Let's look at OOP - the twins, still in school, put money down on a shop in a very expensive area and began working on their 'product'. That's quite the gamble. Not quite old enough for 'compulsive' gambling - yet they definitely do make educated bets. As Hermione realized - these guys aren't in it to look smart to others, only to enjoy themselves while doing exactly what they want to do. Kathy From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 30 02:35:03 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 02:35:03 -0000 Subject: Whoa Nelly! Lots of Snape, was Harry in NEWT Potions Class? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87760 Alla writes: [ regarding the `Snape delaying Harry and Dumbledore getting to Crouch Sr.' scene GoF, Ch 28, p. 484 (UK paperback edition)] >>>>>>>>> Alla: ... as far as I remember there is no evidence that Snape even knew that Dumbledore was in his office. >>>>>>>>> Pip!Squeak: He almost certainly did know Dumbledore was in his office; Snape had `just emerged from the hidden staircase behind the stone gargoyle' (p.484). That is, he'd just *come* from Dumbledore's office. There's also a negative bit of evidence; when Dumbledore emerges from the hidden staircase, Snape is not described as having any reaction at all. Maybe he *didn't* react to Dumbledore popping up like a Jack-in-the-box. Maybe he was expecting him [grin]. >>>>>>>>>>> Alla: I would say that after OoP 'Snape hates Harry because of James" is pretty much canon . If you could come up with other name for "Snape discontinuing lessons with Harry because he saw how his father bullied Snape knowing full well what danger it could be for Harry and all parties involved", I would love to hear it. >>>>>>>>>> Pip!Squeak: OK, I'll bite. Let's look at the Occlumency lessons, shall we? [All references are to Order of the Phoenix, UK hardback edition] First lesson: Chapter 24 pp 467 ? 475. Snape sounds distinctly pissed off throughout this lesson; especially when Harry keeps using Voldemort's name. Snape accesses Harry's memories. He lifts the spell the second he realises that Harry has just recognised the door to the Department of Mysteries. During later lessons Harry becomes convinced that his sensitivity to Voldemort has increased from the first lesson with Snape [Ch. 25 p488 ? 490 ] [It's not certain whether this is actually so. His first Occlumency lesson starts on the first day of term; he has vivid dreams of the corridor during the Christmas holidays immediately preceding (just after the Snake incident). If Voldemort did become aware that he could affect Harry, Voldemort himself would be trying to increase the link between them. It would then make sense that Harry's increased sensitivity would start shortly after the Snake incident *anyway* ? which was at the beginning of the Christmas holidays, only a couple of weeks before the Occlumency lessons start.] Anyway, the Occlumency lessons continue without any problems from Snape until (guestimate) early March. We then have a lesson (Ch. 26. pp 520 ? 523 ) where Snape again recognises a dream of Harry's as a vision from Lord Voldemort. Further on in this lesson, Harry finally accesses some of *Snape's* memories. They seem pretty personal. A child crying as his parents ? well, possibly argue, or from the body language described, possibly the man is hitting or about to hit the woman. A girl laughing at a boy. So Harry has just seen scenes that are likely to be very personal and pretty humiliating to Snape. [Given that the scenes Snape can access from Harry are humiliating memories]. And Snape reacts; he counter attacks strongly enough that Harry `staggered several steps backwards'. Snape is `shaking slightly, and was very white in the face'. [p 522] And does Snape discontinue the lessons at this point? Nope. Actually, he gives Harry a very rare compliment ("I don't remember telling you to use a Shield Charm but there is no doubt that it was effective") Mind you, he does look at Harry with `loathing' in his eyes. [grin] Going into April, we have Dumbledore's spectacular exit from Hogwarts (Broomsticks, hippogriffs, portkeys, thestrals, Phoenix airlines ? who *needs* to apparate?]. The day after Dumbledore leaves, Snape gives Umbridge some fake Veritaserum so she can't interrogate Harry. The day after that, we have the famous final Occlumency lesson. [Ch. 28 pp 562 ? 563 and pp. 572 ? 573 ] The lesson starts, Malfoy comes in, Snape tells Harry they'll resume tomorrow evening. This is actually the second time he's left Harry alone in his office; in the previous described lesson (p. 523) Snape swept out of the office to deal with whatever was making someone scream (Trelawney, as events turned out) and left Harry behind. Snape returns to find Harry in the Pensieve. Snape is described as being `white with rage'. He grips Harry's arm so tightly that Harry's arm goes numb, and later has bruises on it. He looks scary: "Snape's lips were shaking, his face was white, his teeth were bared." (p. 572) He shows signs of starting to lose control; he shakes Harry so hard his glasses slip down his nose. It's at this point he throws Harry away from him (hard). Then he bellows at Harry not to repeat anything, and tells him to get out. It's then the jar of dead cockroaches explodes. [The problem with a magical environment is that you can't work out whether something is exploding *metaphorically*, as in Snape just threw it and it hit so hard it exploded, or exploding *magically*,as in Snape's uncontrolled rage made it explode]. So Snape is absolutely, grade A, extremely angry. And pretty physical with it. Harry is scared of him; with reason. Let's look at Snape's dialogue. "Having fun?" "So. So been enjoying yourself, Potter?" "Amusing man, your father, wasn't he?" "You will not repeat what you saw to anybody!" Get out, get out, I don't want to see you in this office ever again!" Notice what it doesn't say. Well, for one thing, it doesn't say `you stinking little swine, Harry, you are just like your father, and I hate you because of that!' [evil grin]. In fact, this is one of the rare occasions where Snape *doesn't* compare Harry to James. And it's one of the occasions where Harry's reaction is extremely un- James-like. If you look at Snape's dialogue, you can see that there is a progression of thought. Snape's first thought is that Harry is enjoying watching his humiliation ? it's what he says as he pulls Harry out of the Pensieve scene, and the first thing he says when they get back to the office. Harry denies this; how far this gets through I don't know but Snape moves on from *Harry* enjoying himself, to *James* being amusing (in the sarcastic British sense). And Harry, who is upset, continues to say that he didn't find anything amusing at all in his father bullying Snape. It's at this point that Snape throws Harry away from him. Hard. Now, if this were a violent attack, what you would expect would be for Snape to throw Harry to the floor, then step towards him to continue the attack. This isn't actually what the description says. What the description *says* is: "Snape threw Harry from him with all his might." There is then a full stop (period). Snape *doesn't* throw Harry to the floor. Harry falls (that is the word in the text), as a consequence of being thrown away from Snape so hard (basically, Harry loses his balance, which you will if someone pushes you away really hard). The point where Snape throws Harry from him is the point where the `Harry finds this amusing' thought stops. It's also where Snape tries to physically separate himself and Harry; up to this point he has hurt Harry by physical contact. Note that once he's thrown Harry away from him, he doesn't move towards him in any way. Snape has stopped the physical contact. And the dialogue now moves towards `what happens next'. He tells Harry not to repeat what he saw. He tells him to get out. And Harry gets (with exploding cockroaches). So, when Harry says (repeatedly) that he *didn't* find anything remotely amusing in his father's behaviour, Snape changes from reacting to the scene he's just seen (and treating Harry almost as if he had finally got James in his clutches) to keeping Harry away from him. Firstly by throwing him from him, secondly, by getting Harry the heck out of his office. Now, the question I would ask myself is; who exactly is Harry in most danger from in this scene? Voldemort? Or Snape? Uh, let me see. Snape has just grabbed Harry so hard he's bruised him, shaken him so hard his glasses nearly fell off, and then threw him away so hard that Harry couldn't keep his feet and hit the deck. Compare this with the Shrieking Shack and hospital scenes in PoA, where Snape is supposed to be really angry [see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39662 for a boringly detailed analysis where I cast some doubt on that theory]. In *these* scenes, Snape doesn't attack anyone physically. This, in OOP, is the scene where Snape has truly lost it. He's an adult attacking a child, he's a teacher attacking a pupil. This is angry Snape. This is a Snape who hurts someone almost without realising it. And the difference? What makes Snape so angry *here*? James Potter, not Harry. Harry has seen personal scenes in Snape's life before. (See above: OOP Ch. 26 ). Harry has seen Snape being humiliated before (see PoA, Ch. 22 ). What seemed to make the difference this time is having the humiliation by *James* replayed in glorious Pensievecolour. That is basically what Dumbledore says in Ch. 37 p. 735. ` some wounds run too deep for the healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father ? I was wrong.' Snape does not treat Harry as if he were the fifteen year old James. Nor does he act like he's the fifteen year old Snape. He acts like a responsible adult, who is aware that he can be violent, who loses control for a moment. ( I know this sounds weird, but it's true.) He very quickly gets Harry *away* from him. Do you honestly think that if he had fifteen-year old James in a room on his own, he wouldn't have tried to beat him to a pulp? So, we have the prospect of continuing private, one-on-one lessons, with a teacher who has just attacked a pupil. Yeah, this sounds really good. He's attacked a pupil because said pupil (largely unintentionally) accessed some very traumatic memories, which caused the teacher to lose control (and in the four and a half preceding years, Snape *never* physically assaulted a student). Fine. Continuing the lessons will involve said teacher and pupil being left alone to try and gain access to each other's most humiliating memories, possibly leading to yet more trauma. Goody. I dunno. It might be just me, but maybe, just maybe, Snape thought that continuing the Occlumency lessons was too much of a risk for *Harry*? That maybe, if he'd lost control once, he might lose it again? Only this time Harry might fall hard enough to break his back, or his neck? So, no, the discontinuation of the Occlumency lessons do not provide canon for `Snape hates Harry because of James.' They certainly provide canon for `Snape hates James', and they also show yet again that Snape can be very unpleasant towards Harry. But if Snape actually did lose control in that final Occlumency lesson, then he is not trying to harm Harry by discontinuing them. He's trying to protect him. As he has done throughout the books to date. Pip!Squeak From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Mon Dec 29 22:02:27 2003 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 22:02:27 -0000 Subject: What if the Weasley's are the heir's of Slytherin? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87761 "jdr0918" wrote: > So it is possible that Lily has the Slytherin blood. And maybe *she* > is distantly related to Molly. And maybe the Dumbledores... (The Red- > Headed League). > I also have thought of this connection. I know Arthur Weasley is related to the Blacks, but we do not know as of yet about Molly. I also have thought about the Red-Headed League (but I do have a personal bias, being a red-head myself!). I know others have speculated about Lily and AD, but I am not aware of widespread speculation about Lily and Molly. I, too, would be curious to hear from others on this, regardless of the Slytherin connection. Julie From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Mon Dec 29 23:23:30 2003 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne Dragon) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 17:23:30 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) References: Message-ID: <001101c3ce62$c5bb2900$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 87762 {Alla said} Yes, we may have to agree to disagree. I just want to make one comment. Snape is in danger indeed and I respect him for that, but may I remind you that he brought all of this on himself. {Anne Said} Not all of it. He didn't ask for his father to be abusive. I doubt he wanted Potter and Company to be constantly at odds with him (and remember--Remus DOES point out that the hatred between Potter and Snape was immediate and mutual. By the same token--Rowling has not told us who struck the first blow in that little war either--the only real solid info we have about that whole mess was the memory in the pensive--which, quite honestly--puts James and Sirius in the bully role, and without provacation at that, not Severus). He certaily didn;t ask for Sirius to thoughtlessly endanger his life by telling him how to get to Lupins hiding spot during the full moon and almost get killed (And, if you take an honest look, if roles had been reversed, no one would have said James and Sirius had 'asked' for it if Snape had sent them down that tunnel--their curiosity, like Harrys now, would have been nodded off as 'perfectly natural' and within his rights.) Yes, he did join the Death Eaters--but after a youth like he had, they might have seemed a godsend (Remember, we don't know WHY he joined either--unbtil we do, assumptions are just that). For all we know, the DE, at least on the surface, were the first to treat Severus with any repsect--something he would have craved horribly. {Alla Said} He took this job to atone for his past sins and even the fact that he does it is great, but it is not like he joined as a spy from the beginning. It is reasonable assumption to make that he commited all these montrocities himself. {Anne Said} It is possible...but not cannon. Somehow, I suspect that if he had gone that far around the bend, Dumbledore would not have let him come back to the light, and certainly not in a valued and necassary, and dangerous position. He might have referred Snape to psychiatric help perhaps, even found someone to help him along...but I doubt he would have allowed Snape (or trusted him) to be part of The Order, no matter how sincere Snape seemed about repentance. There is such a thing as 'too far'. I think it more likely that Snape went to Dumbledore because he was about to be forced to do some of those very monstocities....Also, bear in mind...it takes a LOT of courage for someone to see that they're wrong and admit it (even if only to themselves and/or one or two other people), let alone do something about it. In Snapes case...he not only must have admitted he was wrong to join the DE in the first place, but he has the courage to take one of the biggest risks of all in order to appease that mistake. You can argue that he 'brought it on himself'...but he also is making himself atone for it. That takes not only courage, but the ability to alter your entire world view. And one other thing to consider...Snape was roughly the same age bracket as Harry is now when he decided to join the DE....it's rather unfair to excuse Harry some of his normal teen behaivior (such as solely blaming Snape for Sirius's death), especially when he has a whole slew of people to guide him in the right direction...and then condemn Snape, who was, from what Rowling has shown us so far, abused by his father, disliked by most of his peers, and bullied severely by James and Sirius, for making a different decision (and yes. very bad) at that same point in his life. When you see very little of 'Love' and 'Decency'--it's very hard to base your life decisions from that perspective... {Alla Said} Harry on the other hand did not ask for any of this, most of all to be the boy from prophecy, so in my mind although I give Snape due respect, I sympathise with Harry much more. {Anne Said} No, Harry did not ask for this, that I agree on. But he has an advantage in that he has so many people looking out for him, if he bothers to see it, that it's not likely he will stumble very far or for very long. Most of the teachers support him, Dumbledore keeps an eye on him, he has two very faithful friends, a secondary family in the Weasleys, and even has friends amoung other adults, such as Remus and Moody. He even has a certain popularity among kids from almost all the houses. Harry has a big destiny, and a hard one, there's no denying that, and you have to admire him for holding up as well as he does sometimes. But there will be someone there to catch him always, and he has people who honestly love and support him. He is not alone, even in his darkest hours (In fact, he seems to have this tendency of chasing off people when he's getting a bit morose and stewing in his own, sometimes distorted, veiw of the world around him). But he is human, just as Snape is. And one mistake he makes like so many people do is to judge solely from his own experiences and opinions of how life should be. Rarely have I seen Harry change his mind once he's decided what a person is like, from his POV, even if later he's given information that contradicts, even a little, what he thinks he knows about that person (Think about when Snape did his best against Quirrell to countercurse the broom,. and Harry foiudn out about it. Other then disbelief that Snape was tryong to help him...he more or less disregards the information when dealing with the Professor in later situations--he is still as rebellious and, internally at least, insulting to Snape as he ever was.). He doesn't bother to look more deeply than the fact that that person offended him, hurt his feelings, whatever...he shows very little interest in understanding why this person is treating him the way he;s being treated. The only time he DOES seem to change his opinion of someone is when they are a supposed 'friend' unveiled as an enemy (Quirrell, Crouch, etc....) Also, it seems he honestly sometimes thinks he's the 'only one' with a terrible burden on his shoulders. It's understandable, since he is a fifteen year old boy, to feel that way, but it's not necessarily a correct assumption on his part. Because the books are mostly written from his POV, we share that opinion, having little input form the internal workings of the other characters. As the readers we are given the chance to relate to him most of all, and we see the world mostly through his eyes--which are by no means omniscient--he certainly has no clue why Dumbledore seems to have adandoned him in Book 5, but certainly starts to build a helathy resentment towards him. One he does nothing to assuge by asking, or even attempting to ask, Dumbledore, or even Lupin why Dumbledore is acting the way he does. Instead, he just lets it stew so that by the time he DOES have the chance to ask Dumbledore handed to him on a plate, he resorts to throwing a tantrum instead because he's so wound up about it....again, typcial teen behaivior...but Harry is not in a typical teen situation, and he needs to realize that (as do the readers). Hopefully, Rowling will gift him with that clarity of sight as the story progresses. I know I feel both sympathy and pain for him and his destiny...but he is not the only one in this story who has it hard. He's just the one we see the most information on, the one whose emotions we are most in tune with, etc, because of the way the books are written. The point is, Both charcters have faults...and honestly, they both contribute to the situation between them. I respect them both equally for the things they have had to face in life, and I also agree both need to work, quite a bit, on thier outlook on life, even if for different reasons. They certainly need to take a break form each other and start looking at more than just the surface...but niether one is any more 'good' than the other--Harry could still very easily fall into Darkness, especially if he allows resentment for his situation and the role he is 'destined' to play to continue to grow. Snape DOES need to quit chewing so much and learn to present what he's trying to present in a different manner (Although, even if he were to politely explain his reasons for what he does, would Harry really listen...or blow him off?). Both are equally in danger, bnoth are being asked to go beyond far beyond what either of them had dreamed for themselves. Both will need strength of character to survive this intact. The difference is that Harry's 'packaging', so to speak, is prettier (far far closer to what most people have experienced in thier lives)...and has better marketing (we know almost everything going on with him, his thoiughts, his emotions, his history, his reasoning, etc...an advantage we don;t have with Snape--what we see of Snape is through Harry's eyes, and has Harry's values and interpretations placed upon it all..). {Alla Said} About the abuse, we definitely have to agree to disagree. {Anne Said} And that's fine--I can understand where you are coming from. Not to put too fine a point on it...but unless you've experinced mental abuse, it's hard to recognize it when it really does happen, and people tend to confuse it for other things, that although unpleasant to experience, do not leave a permanent mark on the psyche (Note that Harrys actions and thoughts about himself are never altered when Snape has gotten after him. It is in fact disregarded as Snape just being a git again. Most of the children in fact tend to harbor that attitude about Snape--much the same as most adults that have suffered his tongue probably treat it. "Oh, there he is again, being a snark...we don't really need to pay him any mind...."). Mental abuse is also far more subtle than people realize. It will rarely make you angry--but it will certainly eat away at your self worth. The verbal fireworks you see between Harry and Snape rarely happen in a 'real' abusive situation--it's usually far more quiet and pervasive to the abusee. Which is why it's so hard to catch a 'real' case in action....until it's too late and the damage has already been done to the child. You aren't challanged in your beleifs in an abusive situation (Which gives you the chance to fight back, much as Harry does when Snape takes a swipe at his actions)--you are catagorically broken down and reduced to nothing over time and constant reminders of how worthless you really are. Again, the distinction is hard to see--unless you've lived through it. And I honestly hope that you haven't. It's a horrid, dark, evil place to be--and a situation I would not wish on my worst enemy. If you live through it, it takes years to crawl back into some semblence of sanity and self-worth...you have to learn to trust people again...and, no matter your nature, you have to learn somehow not to repeat your abusers' mistakes on someone else. It takes time, support, love...and it is never easy to understand from an outside POV. ABout the only good thing is does is teach one inner strength, and give you the knowledge of the difference between a snarky person and a truly abusive one. **Really going to quit now, before we start up again....lol....** And....**offers handshake and/or hug** NO offence meant, or taken. I hope we can still get aloing, even though some of our opinions are diametrically opposed... Anne [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 02:53:34 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 02:53:34 -0000 Subject: Whoa Nelly! Lots of Snape, was Harry in NEWT Potions Class? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87763 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" wrote: > Pip!Squeak: > > OK, I'll bite. Let's look at the Occlumency lessons, shall we? > > [All references are to Order of the Phoenix, UK hardback edition] > > > > I dunno. It might be just me, but maybe, just maybe, Snape thought > that continuing the Occlumency lessons was too much of a risk for > *Harry*? That maybe, if he'd lost control once, he might lose it > again? Only this time Harry might fall hard enough to break his > back, or his neck? > > So, no, the discontinuation of the Occlumency lessons do not provide > canon for `Snape hates Harry because of James.' They certainly > provide canon for `Snape hates James', and they also show yet again > that Snape can be very unpleasant towards Harry. > > But if Snape actually did lose control in that final Occlumency > lesson, then he is not trying to harm Harry by discontinuing them. > He's trying to protect him. > > As he has done throughout the books to date. > > Pip!Squeak Pip, when I was saying that "Snape hates Harry" is now pretty much canon, I did not mean that his behaviour during Occlumency lessons showed that clearly enough (to me at least). I meant that him STOPPING the lessons shows that. Now, I don't want to argue about your vivid description of Snape's actions. I agree with that. He stopped the lessons to PROTECT Harry? That is something totally different. I understand that you find nothing wrong in Snape's actions, ever and it is your right, your prerrogative. Let me ask you a uestion. So, Snape was the only danger to Harry? It did not matter what Voldemort could do to him? Obviously, Snape knew of the reason why Harry should be taught Occlumency and he still stopped the lessons. You expect me to agree that he did it for Harry's own good. I hope you don't mind me writing to you off list. I want to ask you something. Alla From siriuslove71 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 02:54:07 2003 From: siriuslove71 at yahoo.com (Diana_Sirius_fan) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 02:54:07 -0000 Subject: Dung and Luna Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87764 Hi everyone. I am reading New Clues to Book 5. Regarding the Order of the Phoenix it says that there isn't anything meaningful about OOP...that is...unless your Dung or Luna! I am on my 5th reading of OOP and can not seem to get the connection between Dung, Luna and why the Order of the Phoenix name would mean anything to either of these characters. Does anyone else get it? Diana From arielock at aol.com Tue Dec 30 01:35:15 2003 From: arielock at aol.com (arielock2001) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 01:35:15 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87765 Arianna boldly splits infinitives: Many have pointed out that... *Hermione could have done well in Ravenclaw. *Neville seems more like a Hufflepuff. *Cedric was quite brave. *Percy shows Slytherin traits. *Dumbledore states that Harry was put in Gryffindor because he asked not to be placed in Slytherin. *We are all reading the same books, yet cannot agree on what houses MWPP belonged to. *Some think Snape is brave, some think he is a coward, I don't think there is anything wrong with him that Wayne and Stacy (What not to Wear) couldn't fix (I mean really, can't you just picture Snape standing, arms folded, in that 360 degree mirror room scowling, racks and racks of black clothes on wooden hangers "Oh look, Wayne, another black cape" being tossed in the garbage, "What we'd really like to see you in is a nice khaki, a nice clean line, something professional, but something you won't be too afraid to wear when you mix your potion." But I digress...) Back in topic: The Sorting Hat We have discussed the criteria that the Sorting Hat uses to place children in their houses, debating the number of students per house and the possible ratios of students assigned to one house or another. A lot of excellent questions have been raised, and our analysis of various characters quite often contradicts other evidence. This is part of the hat's song in OoP "though condemned I am to split you still I worry that it's wrong, though I must fulfill my duty and must quarter every year" It sounds as if it is dividing the new students fairly close to evenly. Wouldn't it be cool if the big red herring is that the Sorting Hat just *randomly* splits the children into houses? We have seen that the hat can sense where they want to be assigned, and if they have a preference, that is where they go. If the child has no preference, it places them randomly. While at school, the children appear to take on the characteristics of the house because they and everyone around them believes that they must posses those traits. Gryffindors are brave because it is expected of them, Ravenclaws do well in their classes because they believe that they must be smart, since the Sorting Hat put them in Ravenclaw and everyone knows that Ravenclaws are bright. Slytherins are incouraged/allowed to get involved in the dark arts because many assume that they are likely to anyway. I am *not* arguing that the children are blank slates who are molded into conforming to their houses, I am saying that it influences how they are *percieved* and labeled by others. Children do internalize labels placed upon them. If placement is initially arbitrary and has always been, it is entirely possible that no one (teachers, previous headmasters, Dumbledore) is aware of it. Arianna (who still thinks Trelawney is a squib, thanks everyone who responded to her first post, and would love to have Penn and Teller investigate her little look-over-there-while-I-dim-the-lights routine.) From derek at rhinobunny.com Tue Dec 30 03:02:27 2003 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 19:02:27 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Help! The twins and the bet In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20031229154512.01f93c60@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031229185617.028a3310@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87766 Lady Pensieve wrote: >Let's look at OOP - the twins, still in school, put money down on a >shop in a very expensive area and began working on their 'product'. >That's quite the gamble. Derek: There's a big difference between starting a business (an endeavor over which you have control) and betting on a sporting event (something over which you have no control at all). I don't think the former is "gambling" in the same sense as the latter at all. :-) - Derek From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 03:06:11 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 03:06:11 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: <001101c3ce62$c5bb2900$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87767 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Silverthorne Dragon" wrote: > The point is, Both charcters have faults...and honestly, they both contribute to the situation between them. Sorry, me again, but it is too convenient to say that both characters contributed to the terrible miscommunication between them. I absolutely refuse to place equal blame for it on the shoulders of the adult and a child. Tell me what exactly Harry did to Snape at their first lesson for him attacking the boy so unfairly? Harry could still very easily fall into Darkness, especially if he allows resentment for his situation and the role he is 'destined' to play to continue to grow. Snape DOES need to quit chewing so much and learn to present what he's trying to present in a different manner (Although, even if he were to politely explain his reasons for what he does, would Harry really listen...or blow him off?). Both are equally in danger, bnoth are being asked to go beyond far beyond what either of them had dreamed for themselves. Both will need strength of character to survive this intact. Oh, I respect and love Snape for him trying to fight for redemption, but at the same time I absolutely despise him for what he does to Harry. No, actually I trust Rowling words - she mentioned somewhere that harry will not join the darkness. > The difference is that Harry's 'packaging', so to speak, is prettier (far far closer to what most people have experienced in thier lives)...and has better marketing (we know almost everything going on with him, his thoughts, his emotions, his history, his reasoning, etc...an advantage we don;t have with Snape--what we see of Snape is through Harry's eyes, and has Harry's values and interpretations placed upon it all..). > We don't know what is in Snape's head and I would LOVE to know that, but no matter how much mystery we will uncover about him, it does not change the fact that Harry is the innocent, Snape ont he other hand already been on the Dark side and he supposed to know better. > And that's fine--I can understand where you are coming from. Not to put too fine a point on it...but unless you've experinced mental abuse, it's hard to recognize it when it really does happen, and people tend to confuse it for other things, that although unpleasant to experience, do not leave a permanent mark on the psyche (Note that Harrys actions and thoughts about himself are never altered when Snape has gotten after him. It is in fact disregarded as Snape just being a git again. Most of the children in fact tend to harbor that attitude about Snape--much the same as most adults that have suffered his tongue probably treat it. "Oh, there he is again, being a snark...we don't really need to pay him any mind...."). > > Mental abuse is also far more subtle than people realize. It will rarely make you angry--but it will certainly eat away at your self worth. The verbal fireworks you see between Harry and Snape rarely happen in a 'real' abusive situation--it's usually far more quiet and pervasive to the abusee. Which is why it's so hard to catch a 'real' case in action....until it's too late and the damage has already been done to the child. You aren't challanged in your beleifs in an abusive situation (Which gives you the chance to fight back, much as Harry does when Snape takes a swipe at his actions)--you are catagorically broken down and reduced to nothing over time and constant reminders of how worthless you really are. Again, the distinction is hard to see--unless you've lived through it. And I honestly hope that you haven't. It's a horrid, dark, evil place to be- -and a situation I would not wish on my worst enemy. If you live through it, it takes years to crawl back into some semblence of sanity and self-worth...you have to learn to trust people again...and, no matter your nature, you have to learn somehow not to repeat your abusers' mistakes on someone else. It takes time, support, love...and it is never easy to understand from an outside POV. ABout the only good thing is does is teach one inner strength, and give you the knowledge of the difference between a snarky person and a truly abusive one. > > **Really going to quit now, before we start up again....lol....** > > And....**offers handshake and/or hug** NO offence meant, or taken. I hope we can still get aloing, even though some of our opinions are diametrically opposed... > > Anne > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Oh, no offence is taken of course, but please don't say that unless person lived through abuse , she/he can't recognise it for what it is. I worked with the victims of abuse, I studied it a lot and to me there are no degrees of abuse - the person is either abusive or not and Snape in my book certainly is. I hope he will find some peace at the end, but so far he is pathetic, almost irreparably damaged human being and I feel bad for him, but I can't respect him as a teacher of the younglings, although he gets some respect as a spy. I am very far though from calling him a hero. Not yet. Maybe when he dies for Harry, I will. ;) Alla From ShagsTheDustmop at hotmail.com Mon Dec 29 15:26:07 2003 From: ShagsTheDustmop at hotmail.com (Shags the Dustmop) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 09:26:07 -0600 Subject: The alternative way to the potions NEWT (Digest Number 4098) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87768 >Sunday, December 28, 2003, 1:27:30 PM, nkafkafi wrote: >quoting from OoP: > > 'Potter,' she said in ringing tones, 'I will assist you to > > become > > an Auror if it is the last thing I do! If I have to coach you > > nightly, I will make sure you achieve the required results!" > >I realize why McGonagall said this, but still, it makes me >wonder about other students, who could benefit from some >private tutoring. > >This is not the only time Harry receives special training >(understandably), but do we ever hear of any other Hogwarts' >students who get tutoring? > >Neville could certainly have used some help, especially in >his first few years, and I'm sure there are others... I think McGonagall would have said this to any of the Gryffindors if Toady Umbridge was giving them the same trouble. I didn't see this episode so much as McGonagall giving special treatment to Harry as I did as McGonagall rebelling against Umbridge. But of course, we see the story through Harry's eyes, so we don't know what she said at other students' career counseling sessions. Regarding your other question, tutoring for other students, I don't think we hear about it. Judging from Malfoy's reaction to Harry's remedial potions though, it isn't completely unheard of. Although he made fun of Harry for it, he didn't react like it was too bizarre an occurrence. >From the fingers and mind of... ShagsTheDustmop www.ShagsTheDustmop.com www.livejournal.com/~shagsthedustmop _________________________________________________________________ Enjoy a special introductory offer for dial-up Internet access limited time only! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 03:07:28 2003 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 03:07:28 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? Snape against both Voldie and Dumbly. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87769 Anne- but Snape is in real, mortal danger here. Somehow, he has to balance what he IS (Remember--as far as we all know, by cannon rules--he is a Dumbledore supporter), and what he needs to be for Voldemort, Lucius and the other Death Eaters not to suspect him (IE: A true-blooded, Muggle and Mudblood hating, just as vicious as they are, Death Eater). And somehow, he has to do all this WITHOUT seeming to have lost his nerve in the DE community or getting found out by the same... Alla- Snape is in danger indeed and I respect him for that, but may I remind you that he brought all of this on himself. He took this job to atone for his past sins and even the fact that he does it is great, but it is not like he joined as a spy from the beginning. It is reasonable assumption to make that he commited all these montrocities himself. vmonte- I don't feel sorry for Snape. In fact I believe that Snape is not on the side of Dumbledore's OOTP, nor Voldemort's DE. Snape is only interested in himself. He is manipulating both sides. I think he may be waiting for both sides to destroy each other so that he can then make his move for power. He does just enough to please both sides, while at the same time manipulates events as he sees fit. Snape has been trying to get Harry and his friends expelled from the school since day one--and I feel that Snape is responsible for Sirius' death. How many times did Snape verbally attack Sirius while he was at the OOTP headquarters? I remember him calling Sirius a coward (many times). I think he wanted Sirius out of the way and he knew that goading him would force him out in the open. I also think that Snape purposefully wanted Harry to see his memories. I think he did not want to teach Harry the Occulmency lessons and he needed an excuse to stop. Snape's memories are also disturbing to me. There are several times in his memory that Snape has recorded events that he could not possibly have seen. Several times he is transfixed with what he is reading yet his memory has recorded other conversations and events outside his field of vision and hearing. Snape even sees what is happening around him when he is hanging upside down with his clothes over his head. Why is this? Are these memories completely true, or are they slightly altered--for Harry's viewing pleasure? I'm not sure. I think that Snape did not want Harry to see certain memories inside his head. I also think that Snape was afraid that too much personal contact with Harry would make the DE aware of his involvement with the OOTP. I believe that Snape loathes Dumbledore just as much as Voldemort. Voldemort after all is really only a "mudblood," and Snape has made his feelings for mudbloods very clear. In fact, I do not see Voldemort as being at all intelligent--unlike Snape who is very clever and shrewd. V wastes his time running around looking for a useless prophecy (which would have never been fullfilled if he just had ignored it), chasing young children instead of getting on with conquering the world. My bet is that Snape knows the prophecy is garbage. Dumbledore may trust Snape because Snape lets Dumbledore see his true feelings for Voldemort, while at the same time he conceals his true feelings for Dumbledore. From casmir2012 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 00:13:13 2003 From: casmir2012 at yahoo.com (casmir2012) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 00:13:13 -0000 Subject: Help! The twins and the bet In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031229154512.01f93c60@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87770 Derek wrote: > We also have no canon anywhere else suggesting > that the Twins are such compulsive gamblers that > they would put every scrap of money they had > in the world into a single bet. Casmir: Let's look at the psychology of the matter. Two poor boys with a big dream. A few gold pieces with which to buy the dream. The money they had was not enough to start anything; so perhaps they saw it more as the price of a hope, an all or nothing attitude on a what they felt was a good bet. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 03:31:10 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 03:31:10 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? Snape against both Voldie and Dumbly. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87771 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > > vmonte- > I don't feel sorry for Snape. In fact I believe that Snape is not on > the side of Dumbledore's OOTP, nor Voldemort's DE. Snape is only > interested in himself. He is manipulating both sides. I think he may > be waiting for both sides to destroy each other so that he can then > make his move for power. He does just enough to please both sides, > while at the same time manipulates events as he sees fit. > You may be right. I respected Snape a lot after he showed his Dark mark to Fudge in GoF. I am hoping that you wrong, sorry! :o) But it is possible. Everything is possible after OoP, when Snape went against Dumbledore's direct orders. You know what other thing besides him stopping Harry's lessons made me suspicious? He stopped Harry from saying Voldemort's name. My first reaction was "how dare you? :o)" I think that by now Harry earned the right to call Voldemort how he wants to. My second reaction was that Snape is afraid and that he can be scared of the Dark Lord. and I feel that Snape is responsible for > Sirius' death. How many times did Snape verbally attack Sirius while > he was at the OOTP headquarters? I remember him calling Sirius a > coward (many times). I think he wanted Sirius out of the way and he > knew that goading him would force him out in the open. > Oh, that was Snape at his best. I love Sirius dearly. In fact I love him and Snape as couple :o), but I think that Dumbledore is the main reason of his death or "supposed death" ;) My bet is that Snape knows the prophecy is > garbage. > Dumbledore may trust Snape because Snape lets Dumbledore see his true > feelings for Voldemort, while at the same time he conceals his true > feelings for Dumbledore. It is possible that Snape is in it for himself only, but I hope that he has some kind feelings somewhere deep inside his greasy head, very, very deep. :o) Alla From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Tue Dec 30 03:45:31 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 03:45:31 -0000 Subject: Help! The twins and the bet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87772 <> The Sergeant Majorette says I saw a TV program on something similar: a guy spent six months watching tapes of a game show till he worked out the mathematics of the prize board. The he got himself on the game show and won over $100,000. The network didn't want to pay him (this was back in 1984 when 100G was big money) but in the end they had to admit he hadn't cheated. We know the twins are experts in Potions, Charms and Transfiguration (the Skiving Snackboxes, the swamp, the fireworks). Maybe they just did the math, I mean the Arithmancy... I'd hate to think the twins did something crooked, or worse, used a cheap plot device like a time turner. --JDR From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 04:25:14 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 04:25:14 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? Snape against both Voldie and Dumbly. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87773 "vmonte" wrote: I also think that Snape purposefully wanted Harry to see his memories. I think he did not want to teach Harry the Occulmency lessons and he needed an excuse to stop. Snape's memories are also disturbing to me. There are several times in his memory that Snape has recorded events that he could not possibly have seen. Several times he is transfixed with what he is reading yet his memory has recorded other conversations and events outside his field of vision and hearing. Snape even sees what is happening around him when he is hanging upside down with his clothes over his head. Why is this? Are these memories completely true, or are they slightly altered--for Harry's viewing pleasure? I'm not sure. I think that Snape did not want Harry to see certain memories inside his head. I also think that Snape was afraid that too much personal contact with Harry would make the DE aware of his involvement with the OOTP. Hello all, Fred Waldrop Here; I have thought the same thing, and even more. On the "more" part, why would ANYONE want to be by the people they KNOW always are "bullying" them? Yet in the memory, we see Snape walk out with MWPP, walk down to the lake and sit just a few feet away from them. Does this really make sense to anyone? I remeber when I was in school, and remember when a few people would bully me, I would go well out of my way to make sure they did not get the chance to through me in a trash can or whatever they had planned for that day. And just like you mentioned "There are several times in his memory that Snape has recorded events that he could not possibly have seen. Several times he is transfixed with what he is reading yet his memory has recorded other conversations and events outside his field of vision and hearing." Fred again; I could not understand how someone not listening to the conversation HEAR EVERY WORD. Is this Snapes memory? If it is, and he jus happened to wander down to the lake and not realise MWPP were there, how did he hear every word they were saying? Unless he was either trying to spy on them or made the memory up in the first place. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Seems like something funny is going on at the very least, for him to be just a few feet away from his mortal enemies in life, and not be watching his own back. Either that, or he (Snape) really did like being turned upside down by James and Sirius, having his underware exposed to everyone, and possibly more, because we did not see the end of the memory. Fred From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 05:50:01 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 05:50:01 -0000 Subject: Help! The twins and the bet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87774 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "casmir2012" wrote: > Derek wrote: > > We also have no canon anywhere else suggesting > > that the Twins are such compulsive gamblers that > > they would put every scrap of money they had > > in the world into a single bet. > > Casmir: > .... Two poor boys with a big dream. A few gold pieces with which > to buy the dream. The money they had was not enough to start > anything; so perhaps they saw it more as the price of a hope, an all > or nothing attitude on a what they felt was a good bet. bboy_mn: While I agree with what you said, let's not take it too far. This isn't the same as buying lottery tickets. This is a bet that can be analyzed, and a logical and reasonable choice can be made; it isn't random chance. If you bet on the Chicago Cub winning the World Series, you are betting on a miracle. If you bet on the New York Yankees, you are making making a wager with good odds. Although I may be stetching it a bit, Krum is the best Quidditch player in the world and undoubtedly the best Seeker in the world. On the other hand, Ireland has the best team in the world. The logical analysis of that is that the best team is going to score high, and the best Seeker is going to get the Snitch or die trying. Conclusion; the best team in the world will win; the best Seeker in the world will get the Snitch. That's not a random chance bet; that is a bet with a high likelihood of a positive outcome. Not a sure thing, but very reasonable and very possible. Just a thought. bboy_mn From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Tue Dec 30 07:17:01 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 07:17:01 -0000 Subject: Just suppose Snape is at the heart of it all In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87775 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" > wrote: ...Alternatively the whole Prophecy thing could be > Dumbledore playing mind games with Voldy. > Depressing, isn't it? > > The Sergeant Majorette says > > Oh, no, certainly not depressing! Dumbledore messing with poor > Tommy Marvel's head for no other reason than plain bad-spirited > fun just perks me right up. What depresses me is all that > "power of love" treacle. > What depresses me about the whole defeating Voldemort through the "power of love" bit is that that is how this whole business got started in the first place, back in Godric Hollow. What if the power of love spell Harry has to do in the end is the same one his mother did? Tom tries to AK someone close to Harry, Harry throws himself in the way, the AK deflects back at him again, *poof* Vapormort. At the same time, the connection between Tom & Harry sends a wave of love through towards Tom, driving him insane. Or something like that. The books already seem to be circular enough that I could see something like that happening all too easily. I'd rather see Tom die a horribly muggle death. Hit and run by the Weasleys Ford Anglia, for example. Well, perhaps I'm totally wrong, and it will be something totally unrelated. Perhaps the Dark Lord will be defeated through the power of chocolate... --Arcum From belijako at online.no Tue Dec 30 09:34:51 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 09:34:51 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? Snape against both Voldie and Dumbly. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87776 Fred wrote: > And just like you mentioned "There are several times in his memory > that Snape has recorded events that he could not possibly have seen. > Several times he is transfixed with what he is reading yet his memory > has recorded other conversations and events outside his field of > vision and hearing." > Fred again; I could not understand how someone not listening > to the conversation HEAR EVERY WORD. Is this Snapes memory? If it is, > and he jus happened to wander down to the lake and not realise MWPP > were there, how did he hear every word they were saying? Unless he > was either trying to spy on them or made the memory up in the first > place. > It just doesn't make any sense to me. Seems like something funny is > going on at the very least, for him to be just a few feet away from > his mortal enemies in life, and not be watching his own back. Either > that, or he (Snape) really did like being turned upside down by James > and Sirius, having his underware exposed to everyone, and possibly > more, because we did not see the end of the memory. Berit replies: I don't think you should put too much into Harry being able to hear conversations in the pensieve memory Snape couldn't possibly have heard himself. Canon seems to suggests that the person entering the pensieve memory may move about freely; hearing and seeing things quite far away from the owner of the memory as long as he or she doesn't wander out of sight of said person. Harry hoped Snape wouldn't move away from his father, because then Harry wouldn't be able to see more of him (his father). A memory put into a pensieve is different from a memory accessed directly in someone's mind. That's probably why pensieves are so useful: Dumbledore says something to that effect: Putting his own thoughts into a pensieve, he is able to look at it "from the outside" so to speak. The pensieve, it seems, makes it possible to move around quite freely and hear and see things the owner of the memory might not have seen himself, had the memory remained in his own head. I'm sorry; Snape may very well be someone who shouldn't be trusted, but Harry being able to move around in his memory, seeing things Snape didn't notice himself, is not an argument Snape set the pensieve as a "trap" for Harry. Simply because this is how a pensieve works, no matter whose thoughts are inside. Berit From quigonginger at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 13:15:33 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 13:15:33 -0000 Subject: Help! The twins and the bet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87777 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kneazelkid" wrote: > I can't find the answer by searching the posts, so I was hoping > someone could help me. It's driving me bonkers. > Question: In GoF, how did the twins know the outcome of the game? Has > this ever been decided? Did I just miss it? > Thanks, > Kneazelkid Ginger chimes in with an off the wall suggestion: Others have given some very sane observations. I especially like those that base the winning on good old fashioned study of the game. So here's an answer from left field that popped into my head: We know the twins are gathering all kinds of interesting things for their joke shop products. Doxy droppings, Venemous Tentacula seeds, and who knows what else. They take these things and, with the addition of some pretty nifty charm work, make them into something else useful. In the reading of responses, I have come across "bets" "wagers" and "speculative ventures" which, brought to mind the Mackled Malaclaw (FB p. 28 US). To quote: The Malaclaw's bite has the unusual side effect of making the victim unlucky for a period of up to a week after the injury. If you are bitten by a Malaclaw, all bets, wagers, and speculative ventures should be cancelled, as they are sure to go against the victim. End quote. So, let's suppose that F&G have been tinkering with this and have found the antidote. Then before the Big Match they dosed themselves with it. (Or if you want ESE!F&G, they gave out sweets laced with Malaclaw drool to everyone else who was betting. Although, that's a long shot.) They seem to have good luck throughout in their ventures. The exception being expelled from Quidditch. Maybe they thought taking it before a sporting event wasn't very sporting of them. :-) Just throwing that out, Ginger From silmariel at telefonica.net Tue Dec 30 14:59:56 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (a_silmariel) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 14:59:56 -0000 Subject: Just suppose Snape is the heart of it all In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87778 Kneasy wrote: > No, what depresses me is that I can't see any way to eliminate any of the > alternative explanations as to what's going on with the Prophecy until we > get more information. > Not even a smidgeon of confirmation of the contents when the globe broke > in the Ministry. By some strange(!) chance not a single word of the Prophecy > was heard. > It's things like this that raise my paranoia index to unhealthy levels. > I feel that I'm being messed about and I'm not happy. I've decided to retreat of the realm of prophecies, they are a mortal trap and I haven't seen yet the Dark Lord raising more powerful than before. But count me on the paranoic side. Instead of building a mistery and revealing it later, she throws a murder at the end of the novel, letting me with the question of who killed Sirius and why. And just suposse the heart of it all is a literal heart, the heart of a dragon, how she could laugh later given she has 'Draco Dormiens...' in every novel, rigth in front of us. It would be circular if the heart is from Norbert, linking 1 and 7 books both in the present and the past (if she writes about Godric's Hollow in book 7). silmariel From mommystery at hotmail.com Tue Dec 30 13:16:43 2003 From: mommystery at hotmail.com (mommystery2003) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 13:16:43 -0000 Subject: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87779 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: Maybe when he dies for Harry, I will. ;) even if he dies for Harry, which I hope doesn't happen, Harry still wouldn't appreciate the sacrifice Snape made - he'd probably just see it as retribution for Snape being responsible for Black's death. Ces From anole at circlesofbeauty.com Tue Dec 30 08:41:19 2003 From: anole at circlesofbeauty.com (Kevin, Anole & Family) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 08:41:19 -0000 Subject: Order of The Phoenix-spoiler Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87780 Hi I'm kind of late in the game , but I just finished the OoTP and was amazed and depressed for some time about the death of Sirius! I know there were some posting about this subject but can't tell where to find them? Any info would be helpful! Did anyone have similar feelings after finishing the book? Thanks Anole From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Dec 30 15:23:10 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 15:23:10 +0000 Subject: Let's hear it for good old Snapey! Message-ID: <13C7BD90-3ADC-11D8-B947-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87781 Holiday commitments plus severe over-indulgence mean that I have been away from the site for a week or so and that I've had to spend some time catching up on the postings made by the more conscientious members. Consequently I've missed out on the bun-fight over our Sevvy and his attitudes, behaviour, principles and motives. That's a pity. Much as I love the HP series I'm of the opinion that Snape is the only fully three-dimensional character in there. I also suspect that his character is so finely drawn for a reason; that much that happens from now on will revolve around him. He'll be drawn even more to centre stage. Goody! As a proto-typical boring old fart (and proud of it), I get a bit exercised when Sevvy gets accused of bullying, mental abuse and "lacking people skills," whatever that may mean. The idea that no child should be exposed to disappointment, sarcasm or criticism seems ludicrous. That would result in pretty poor preparation for adult life IMO. Mind you, it's been some years since I last sat staring at a blackboard, so maybe things have changed, but I've always been under the impression that the subject to be taught and the standards expected of the students were not open to discussion between pupils and teachers. The concept of an ignorant, uninformed, uneducated adolescent having worthwhile opinions on matters of which they know nothing is laughable. Or is it different these days? Maybe it is, since some posters keep insisting that Harry should not be held to account for his failings. For the most part we see the Potterverse from Harry's viewpoint. Fair enough, the books are mostly about him after all. Try switching the viewpoint. Look at it from Snape's angle. Harry is an obstreperous, obstructive, argumentative, stubborn, disobedient, idle little sneak. To prove it, all Snape need do is review the past behaviour of young Potter. He doesn't listen, he doesn't follow instructions and he seems to think he has the right to demand justifications for complying with almost everything he dislikes. Harry thinks he knows best when he patently doesn't. Naturally this is anathema to Snape, but it never occurs to Harry at all; he whines and argues and doesn't get on with doing what is necessary. Some may argue that Snape should explain more. Why? Do you think it would make any difference? Harry sees Snape in personal terms only; no matter how much Snape tried Harry would still have to be dragged kicking and screaming to (reluctant) cooperation. Harry does not like Snape and that is a good enough reason for stubborn resistance so far as Harry is concerned. Snape doesn't much like Harry either, but I doubt if he hates him. He's too intelligent for that. He knows that whatever happened with James had nothing to do with Harry. So when Dumbledore requests that he give up his own time to tutor Harry in much-needed skills, he does so and doesn't moan about it. Only when he sees that it is totally pointless does he throw Potter out. He tried, Harry didn't. And so Sirius died. But Harry will never blame himself, will he? It's always someone else's fault. I think it was Arcum (apologies if I'm wrong) who stated that Snape was "...in it for his own purposes." That's been my opinion for a long time. (See 69509, though you may not agree with my reason why, the basic argument stands up, I think.) Snape has a massive grudge against Voldy and joining up with the Order is the best, maybe the only way to get his revenge. That's why DD isn't worried about him, he understands his motivation. He also understands that Snape is acting a part. He can't appear too sympathetic to DD, the Order or Harry; that wouldn't fit the image he projects to Malfoy and the DEs. It could end up very badly for him if they suspected that he was a mole for DD. "Don't wear your heart on your sleeve" is a tenet Snape lives by - he has to. Another poster pointed to the number of times Snape had tried to get Harry expelled as an indicator of his hatred. Really? Who does he always voice this opinion to? Dumbledore. Do you think that he expects DD to take any notice? Of course not. So why do it? All part of the persona Snape is showing to the world. Act the part. It's sound and fury, signifying nothing. Those two may be the best double-act in the Wizarding World. So my advice is to ignore the obvious (always advisable when JKR shoves it in your face) and wonder why does ole Sevvy act the way he does. It's liable to be much more productive than writing him off as a mindless bully. He'll be a hero yet. Bets? Kneasy From devin.smither at yale.edu Tue Dec 30 17:24:23 2003 From: devin.smither at yale.edu (uilnslcoap) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 17:24:23 -0000 Subject: Let's hear it for good old Snapey! In-Reply-To: <13C7BD90-3ADC-11D8-B947-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87782 Kneasy said: >> As a proto-typical boring old fart (and proud of it), I get a bit > exercised when Sevvy gets accused of bullying, mental abuse and > "lacking people skills," whatever that may mean. > The idea that no child should be exposed to disappointment, sarcasm or > criticism seems ludicrous. That would result in pretty poor preparation > for adult life IMO. Ahem...I sort of like Snape. I admit that I more than sort of like Harry by comparison, but Harry aside, doesn't Snape's treatment of Neville seem over the line? His belittling of him only confirms Neville's opinion (up to book five) of himself as incompetent. You could attempt to argue that Snape is doing what he thinks is best for Neville, but I honestly do see it as abuse. I'm fine with teachers who are tough on the kids, but Snape's treatment of Neville is too much. He doesn't just criticize his work; he treats him like dirt in front of his peers, and basically calls him stupid. A good teacher would want to make a student better at their subject and would recognize that these scare tactics are ineffective after a year or two. While Snape's methods may work for most, he's a failure at his profession (though admittedly it's probably not his calling) where some students are concerned. And I'm not particularly a fan of Neville, by the way. That treatment seems awful, though. By the way, I don't think a teacher needs to be cruel to prepare a student for adult life. They're going to find out the world is a mean place no matter what and many of their peers are going to confirm the presence of "disappoint, sarcasm, or criticism" in the world. > Harry is an obstreperous, obstructive, argumentative, stubborn, > disobedient, idle little sneak. To prove it, all Snape need do is > review the past behaviour of young Potter. > He doesn't listen, he doesn't follow instructions and he seems to think > he has the right to demand justifications for complying with almost > everything he dislikes. Harry thinks he knows best when he patently > doesn't. Agreed. His actions even on the non-Snape front are often questionable, sometimes reprehensible, and usually some brand of irresponsible (he's also very self-centered a lot of the time)--but he's a child. And it's not as though Harry hasn't proved himself good at heart and well-intentioned and capable of making those intentions into powerful actions aside from those flaws. And Snape didn't know these things about Harry when he first walked in the door to his classroom and he STILL treated him like so much rubbish. That speaks to an irrational feeling of dislike, if not more. If Harry had not been his father's son, he would probably have been an average student that never would have attracted Snape's ire or approval. Harry would have thought Snape mean and greasy, but he would not have held him in contempt the way he does now. > Harry sees Snape in personal terms only; no > matter how much Snape tried Harry would still have to be dragged > kicking and screaming to (reluctant) cooperation. Harry does not like > Snape and that is a good enough reason for stubborn resistance so far > as Harry is concerned. > > Snape doesn't much like Harry either, but I doubt if he hates him. > He's too intelligent for that. He knows that whatever happened with > James had nothing to do with Harry. But you yourself just said that Harry has a blind spot in logic or reason when it comes to Snape. Is it so hard to believe that Snape might be the same way when it comes to James/Harry? The father bullied him (James's conduct was utterly awful...the worst peer-to- peer interaction so far in the series--it might cause a blind spot in many people). Now the son shall surely be the embodiment of his progenitor (given the right set of mental combinations, it might be nigh on irresistible for Snape to take his revenge on a relatively defenseless proto-James). And what short of hate (or at least mild loathing) would prompt a man to embarass an 11-year-old by asking him questions he can't possibly know the answers to in one of his first classes ever? I'm sorry, I can't possibly ever think of that as the conduct of someone who is reasoning. If the onus of the entire misunderstanding between these two characters can be set on anybody (perhaps it can't), it's Snape. His treatment of Harry from MINUTE ONE has caused that. Again, I (sort of) like Snape, I wish he and Harry would have it out and let us see the interesting man sitting under all that prejudice. I think if one of them would just SAY SOMETHING civil to the other one, a whole lot might be cleared up. Specifically, I'd like Harry to ask for Snape's forgiveness on the Pensieve issue and for something to grow from there, but we'll see. > So when Dumbledore requests that he > give up his own time to tutor Harry in much-needed skills, he does so > and doesn't moan about it. Only when he sees that it is totally > pointless does he throw Potter out. He tried, Harry didn't. And so > Sirius died. But Harry will never blame himself, will he? It's always > someone else's fault. Oh, the fault I find with Harry for looking in that Pensieve. Oh, the lost progress in the Snape-Harry relations. It seemed to me Harry had earned a modicum of Snape's respect and a smidgeon of his understanding (which says a lot for Snape because Harry didn't really seem to reciprocate). But I don't know if Snape didn't whine or moan. I'll bet he did-- once, before he recognized it was useless--and then went on. And Snape simply did not have as high-minded a cause as his pupil's lack of effort on his mind when he threw Harry out. He had him out as a gut reaction to Harry's BETRAYAL (it's like reading a diary, only about a thousand times worse). That, coupled with the reinforced father-son similarity thanks to the memory relating to the father, was too much for the man. Oddly, I think Snape's behavior towards Harry after the Pensieve incident reads more like embarassed than angry, though he is vindictive on at least one occasion. Hermione clears up Harry's potion of which his one vial was broken and Snape uses his chance to award him no marks. That's also the conduct of someone with spite on the brain. Even if it were the proper thing to do as a teacher (I'm pretty sure someone with Snape's talent could rescue some of the concoction on the floor), Snape takes obvious pleasure in giving him the grade and that is wrong no matter what. Do you really think Harry doesn't blame himself for Sirius's death (this is not meant to sound astounded, merely interrogative)? I can see how you might, but I think Harry has a hero complex and is bound to consider Sirius his fault. Dumbledore thinks he does this as well. I'm not saying he doesn't blame Snape also, though. Harry's got too much invested in his own hatred there to not do that. Ah well, I guess we won't see eye-to-eye on this, but I'm interested in how you'll respond, Kneasy. Devin PS My apologies for using so many conjunctions at the beginning of sentences. The son-of-two-English-teachers in me recognizes it as wrong, but it does keep sentences shorter and therefore readable and just feels right sometimes. From houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Tue Dec 30 17:35:50 2003 From: houseofbohacek at earthlink.net (Gail Bohacek) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 12:35:50 -0500 Subject: (FILK) Gillyweed Message-ID: <410-220031223017355081@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 87783 Gillyweed (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of "Grow For Me" from the musical "Little Shop of Horrors") Midi is here: http://addagirl.com/littleshop.htm Dedicated to Constance Vigilance (Scene: As the lights come up on the stage, several people are already there: Krum is standing next to Hermione, Cedric is beside Cho, Fleur is there looking worried and all of them are soaking wet. Madame Pomfrey is fussing over Hermione. Everybody looks to stage left as Harry enters with Ron and Gabrielle. Fleur runs over to Gabrielle) Fleur: Gabrielle! Gabrielle! Is she alive? Is she 'urt? Harry (exhausted): She's fine Ron (to Percy who has just run to his side): Geroff, Percy, I'm all right. Fleur (to Gabrielle): It was the Grindylows...zey attacked me...oh, Gabrielle, I thought...I thought... Hermione: Harry, well done! You did it, you found out how to breathe under the water all by yourself. Krum: You haff a water-beetle in your hair, Herm-own-ninny. (The crowd starts to thin, leaving Harry, Ron, Hermione, Krum and Madame Pomfrey alone, center stage. Madame Pomfrey, during the song, starts to fuss over Harry's wounds.) (Cue intro music for "Gillyweed") Harry (speaking): You know, we spent all that time researching in the library together for some sort of spell to use for this second task. We looked and looked without any luck. I really didn't think I was going to make it, but it was Dobby who pulled through at the last moment. Ron (speaking): What happened? Harry (singing) : I learned from the Egg's song That someone would take Something from me and hide It under the lake I'd have to retrieve it But how would I breathe? Oh, we'd Have to read We looked through all the books For some sort of spell We couldn't find nuthin' I kept thinkin', "Hell" Then Dobby appeared and In my hour of need Brought me Gillyweed That's how I went under the water Where I found you tied I thought if the others didn't come You'd be left to die The leader of the Mer-people has spoken To D'dore Now all of the judges are talking amongst themselves Soon they'll announce what's the score Bagman (speaking off stage): Mr. Harry Potter used Gillyweed to great effect. He returned last, and well outside the time limit of an hour. However, the Mer-chieftainess informs us that Mr. Potter was first to reach the hostages, and the delay in his return was due to his determination to return all the hostages to safety, not merely his own. Most of the judges feel that shows moral fibre and merits full marks. However...Mr. Potter's score is forty-five points! Ron (speaking): Hey! What do you know about that, Harry! You're now tied for first place with Cedric! (singing) You were not being thick Like I thought you were The judges decided It was moral fibre Harry (singing): If you should ask of me "How did you succeed?" Dobby Gave me (Spoken, as Madame Pomfrey touches up one of his wounds) Ouch! Gillyweed. -Gail B. houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Why Wait? Move to EarthLink. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tiamik72 at aol.com Tue Dec 30 17:46:30 2003 From: tiamik72 at aol.com (katie_wible) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 17:46:30 -0000 Subject: OOP: MWPP and their houses/Tonks' purpose In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87784 > > I'm sure that the vast majority of the Blacks were Slytherins for > generations. I rather think that Sirius was not. I can see him > being sorted into Gryffindor, and that causing great distress and > shame to his parents. And, of course, then Regulus comes along and > assuages some of that feeling by being sorted into Slytherin. The > sorting of the brothers becomes one more example of Regulus being the > perfect son and Sirius being the blood traitor. > > Marianne Okay, there is no evidence of this, but wouldn't it be hilarious if Sirius was sorted into Hufflepuff. I mean Gryffindor is one thing, at least they are brave. But could you imagine Mrs. Black recieving an owl saying that her first born son became a Hufflepuff. That would probably be an even bigger blow to the family, seeing as they are viewed as a bunch of duffers. When it comes to prejudiced people like Mrs. Black, I think Hufflepuff would be an even bigger insult than Gryffindor. They is no evidence to deny that he was in Hufflepuff either. I mean he is extremely loyal, and values the friendship thing( about sacrificing yourself for your freinds, like they would all have done for Peter.) I'm not sure about this though, I still think they were all Gyffindors, because it would be extremely hard to notice if Lupin was gone once a month if they were all in different houses. sorry for rambling, Katie From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 15:48:14 2003 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 15:48:14 -0000 Subject: Help! The twins and the bet In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031229185617.028a3310@mail.rhinobunny.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87785 > Lady Pensieve wrote: > >Let's look at OOP - the twins, still in school, put money down on a > >shop in a very expensive area and began working on their 'product'. > >That's quite the gamble. > > Derek: > There's a big difference between starting a business (an endeavor > over which you have control) and betting on a sporting event (something > over which you have no control at all). I don't think the former is > "gambling" in the same sense as the latter at all. :-) > I agree with Derek. Their joke shop had at least two years and probably more of "research" behind it. They were constantly trying new things and trying them out on students, who then would be the main ones to buy their jokes anyway. That isn't a gamble; risk, maybe, but not a gamble. The one thing about their bet at the world cup that still makes me believe there is more to it than just educated Quidditch fans is how specific their bet was. Going with the point spread is one thing... but that specific? Given that JKR doesn't waste words, I still believe there is a clue or at least foreshadowing embedded in that. Julie From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 16:06:59 2003 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 16:06:59 -0000 Subject: Whoa Nelly! Lots of Snape, was Harry in NEWT Potions Class? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87786 Pip!Squeak wrote: > I dunno. It might be just me, but maybe, just maybe, Snape thought > that continuing the Occlumency lessons was too much of a risk for > *Harry*? That maybe, if he'd lost control once, he might lose it > again? Only this time Harry might fall hard enough to break his > back, or his neck? > > But if Snape actually did lose control in that final Occlumency > lesson, then he is not trying to harm Harry by discontinuing them. > He's trying to protect him. > > As he has done throughout the books to date. What an analysis! I agree about Snape ending the Occlumency lessons for the sake of protection, with Harry's protection being part of this. I also think Snape may have realized that he does not hate Harry, and if this feeling/thought were available to Voldemort, it would put Snape, Harry, and the entire Order into harm's way. If Snape is a spy for the Order, LV and the DEs need to believe he hates Harry; if they don't, all is in jeopardy. Is that an appropriate extrapolation? Julie From jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk Tue Dec 30 16:11:48 2003 From: jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk (jotwo2003) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 16:11:48 -0000 Subject: Avaricious Fudge? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87787 Re-reading OOP I've had a few thoughts about Fudge. Even though by the end he had been forced to accept that Voldemort was back I think he is going to cause more trouble for the good side in the next books. (I think this is my own theory but I've read so many discussions in fandom that sometimes I'm not sure where ideas comes from.) Now I don't believe Fudge is a Death Eater. At the end of GOF I considered him as an incompetent who was sticking his head in the sand. (BTW I think his incompetence is verified by his name, as to fudge carries overtones of putting together something inadequate.) In OOP we saw that he was devious, as he was prepared to use character assassination to undermine people who disagreed with him. I also think that OOP planted the idea that Fudge is avaricious. I picked this up by re-reading Chapter 10, Luna Lovegood, specifically The Quibbler article. "Cornelius Fudge, the Minister for Magic, denied he had any plans to take over the running of the Wizarding Bank, Gringotts, when he was elected Minister for Magic five years ago. Fudge has always insisted that he wants nothing more than to 'co-operate peacefully' with the guardians of our gold. BUT DOES HE? Sources close to the Minister have recently disclosed that Fudge's dearest ambition is to seize control of the goblin gold supplies and that he will not hesitate to use force if need be " Now, I know The Quibbler has been presented in canon as the sort of newspaper that makes the National Enquirer look like the Financial Times, but I get the impression that fans suspect that there may be a kernel of truth in some of its outrageous stories. I can envisage Fudge doing something like this, as it would be a logical character development for him, as we know now he is an incompetent but ruthless politician, rather than the avuncular bumbler the reader and Harry first took him to be. From OOP the reader gets the impression that JKR dislikes bureaucrats and politicians, and it would be logical if she developed this idea by portraying the wizarding government as corrupt and venal. If Fudge attacks the goblins for their gold then it would make sense for them to join Voldemort's side, or, at best, refuse to help the good side. There is other evidence to support this theory. In OOP, chapter 5, The order of the Phoenix, Bill says Ragnak is feeling anti-wizard because Fudge refused to pay the goblins the money that Ludo Bagman owed them in GOF. Perhaps this is another example of JKR's foreshadowing technique. Other techniques that people argue that she uses when she is planting a clue are interruption and Harry not believing something. With regards to The Quibbler article, JKR writes, "Harry did not read any further. Fudge might have many faults but Harry found it extremely hard to imagine him ordering goblins to be cooked in pies." Fudge won't be going that far but I suspect something will happen between him and the goblins. JoTwo From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 17:41:14 2003 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 17:41:14 -0000 Subject: Let's hear it for good old Snapey! In-Reply-To: <13C7BD90-3ADC-11D8-B947-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87788 Kneasy wrote: >>Another poster pointed to the number of times Snape had tried to get Harry expelled as an indicator of his hatred. Really? Who does he always voice this opinion to? Dumbledore. Do you think that he expects DD to take any notice? Of course not. So why do it? All part of the persona Snape is showing to the world. Act the part. It's sound and fury, signifying nothing. Those two may be the best double- act in the Wizarding World.>> vmonte- So you think that Dumbledore and Snape are playing: "good cop, bad cop?" I understand that although Snape is a real jerk, he is a tough and dedicated teacher. (I'm not saying that he is a fair teacher, just that he takes his job seriously and expects his students to achieve high marks.) Harry is one of those kids that has talent but doesn't really apply himself. (Hermione is always helping Ron and Harry with their lessons.) I know that there is nothing more frustrating for a teacher than to see a kid that has potential but no goals in life. Snape obviously thinks that Harry is a smart mouth punk who is always breaking school rules. (Of course, Snape's hatred of Harry stems partly from jealousy. Harry has natural talent--unlike Snape who had to work hard to get where he's at.) I wonder why Snape hates Hermione? She is a dedicated student, that pays attention, and achieves high marks. So is it just because she is friends with Harry? Does Snape really hate "mudbloods" or is that also part of his act? If so, it probably kills Snape to see talent coming from people like Hermione (a mudblood). I think Snape's hatred of Harry boils down to jealousy. Snape has had to work hard to get to where he is at and Harry, who doesn't try at all, has more natural ability. Even Hermione who is a dedicated student realizes (in book one) that there is more to being a great wizard than just cleverness. Snape probably also sees this limitation in himself, so Harry's natural ability burns him up! Also, I wonder why Snape isn't allowed to teach DADA classes? Why would this class bring out Snape's bad side and not his potions class which could also be used for evil. Is the DADA position really jinxed?, or is it something else? The only thing I can think of is that Snape must have lost control in the past and hurt some innocent person while doing DADA. (He was after all part of the DE.) Is this the real reason why James Potter picked on Snape in school? I remember that in the begining of OOTP Harry was also picking on Dudley. Was James picking on a bully like Dudley? Snape is verbally abusive to his students. Perhaps DADA in the hands of someone like Snape could become lethal to a student (or could be lethal to Snape if he makes the students angry). Maybe DADA can only be done successfully by those who are emotionally balanced, those who also have love in them, which serves to keep DADA in check. I do not see much love in Snape's heart. vmonte From spang_b at yahoo.co.in Tue Dec 30 14:35:35 2003 From: spang_b at yahoo.co.in (spang_b) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 14:35:35 -0000 Subject: The visible elf/ how the owls do it? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87789 Hi, I have a couple of questions. In OOTP, the headquarters of Order of Phoenix is supposed to be unplottable and under fidelius charm or something. Then how come Harry's owl Hedwig finds it when he sends letters? Come to think of it, how do owls find Hogwarts when it is supposed to be unplottable? And how come they always find their targets without addresses? Couldn't someone like Voldemort just send an owl and track it trusting that it would always find its target? Also in OOTP, in the first chapter, after the mysterious crack of diapparating Mundungus, Harry is sure that it is not Dobby. The line goes something like Harry is sure that the house-elf cannot be invisible. Why can't the house-elves be invisible? spangb From siriuslove71 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 18:44:54 2003 From: siriuslove71 at yahoo.com (Diana_Sirius_fan) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 18:44:54 -0000 Subject: OOP: MWPP and their houses/Tonks' purpose In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87790 > I'm not sure about this though, I still think they were all > Gyffindors, because it would be extremely hard to notice if Lupin was > gone once a month if they were all in different houses. > > sorry for rambling, > Katie Also, in OOP, page 170 Ginny asked Sirius if he was a prefect. Sirius said that it was Lupin who was the good boy and got the badge. Then Lupin said, "I think Dumbledore might have hoped that I would be able to exercise some control over my best friends" It seems that since they only pick one boy and one girl per house that Sirius or James could have still became prefects if they were in a different house than Lupin. The sentence makes it sound like they were in the same house and Lupin was picked for their house. Diana From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 19:14:08 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 19:14:08 -0000 Subject: FILK: Post After Post Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87791 Post After Post Sung to the tune of "Time After Time" by Cyndi Lauper Setting: [PS/SS] Harry is lying in bed plotting to meet the postman at the door and get his Hogwarts letter. Suddenly, Harry begins to sing: HARRY: Lying in my bed I hear the clock tick, Can't think of who Caught up in questions - confusion Is something new Flashback?green light? Will not sleep tonight Fistfuls of letters Post after post? Sometimes I picture who Is posting to me again They're writing to me, I can't see What they've said Dursley said ? No! Go!? I failed to grab My second chance comes time---- I've not lost I will wait --- and it will find me Post after post I can't fail to catch just one --- I'll be waiting Post after post After the alarm sounds and I creep down To the door Watching for Dursleys --- I'm wonderin' What's on the floor Oh no he's sleeping at the door The chance just passed me by I've not lost I will wait --- and it will find me Post after post I can't fail to catch just one --- I will be waiting Post after post Dursley said --- No! Go! I failed to grab My second chance comes time--- I've not lost I will wait?and it will find me Post after post Post after post Post after post Post after post Thanks for singing along! :) Diana L. From lupinesque at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 19:38:36 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 19:38:36 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Mirror and Chekhov's Gun In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87792 Dorapye wrote: > > I assumed the mirror was actually just a plot device, to present > > an 'if only...' to the reader. Athena wrote: > That was my reaction. I felt like it was there to be done to yank > tears from the reader Yeah, maybe it was--but it's also a standard element of drama that random twists of fate (he simply forgot about it), as well as character interplay (he deliberately didn't open it; he didn't think of Snape when he was looking for a member of the Order), cause terrible things to happen. > If the two way mirror worked the way that Sirius said > it did, then he would have given it to Harry and said, "Ten o'clock > tonight, find a safe secluded place and call out my name. We'll > talk everynight and I'll even see if I can't help you a bit with > your homework." Hm. That's plausible, but it's just as plausible that he wouldn't say it. He included the instructions in the parcel, so no need to explain. If I gave someone close to me a parcel, I'd expect that he'd open it the first moment he had available. Normally, Harry would--he doesn't even usually wait 'til he's in private to read letters from his fugitive godfather. > Later when Harry went through the trouble of contacting Sirius by > Umbridge's fire, he should have said, "Harry, why didn't you just > use the mirror I gave you? I mean, I think risks are fun and all, > but I did give you something so you could talk with me." I think there's a very plausible plot and character reason why he didn't. They were in a hurry and Harry had something else important on his mind. > Anyway, as a reader and lover of drama I categorically reject that > prop. I do not think it follow Chekhov's Gun rule and instead I > think it violates it. Chekhov said that if a gun appears in Act I, it has to be fired in Act III. Has Act III arrived yet? I don't believe it has. JKR regularly makes use of the fact that she can present a gun in one book and not fire it until thousands of pages and dozens of real-time months have passed. If there was ever a gun that failed to get fired, it's the Polyjuice Potion in CS. All that trouble, all that buildup, and what do we get? A comedy routine where our boys try to act like Crabbe and Goyle, and the information that C, G, and Draco don't have any information. And Hermione spends some time in the hospital losing her fur. The Trio doesn't even use the one piece of useful information they acquire, the fact that the Malfoys have a stash of contraband. Apparently the Polyjuice was just there as a gag, one of the details of wizarding possibility that make the HP universe enjoyable to read about. As a plot device, it's a dead end. Ah, but turn to Act II (if the series is a three-act play, GF is in Act II), and that dead end in the plot turns out to have a secret passageway at the end of it, one that leads not only to the central plot device of GF, but to the probable turning point of the series, Voldemort's return. At last she has fired the gun that has been sitting there gathering dust for two and a half novels. But, you know, I don't even accept Chekhov's Law. Even dramatic geniuses don't have the one and only formula for writing great drama, and furthermore, Chekhov wasn't writing mysteries. Mysteries *demand* that some of the items that scream "ESSENTIAL PLOT DEVICE!" don't get used for anything interesting. Otherwise they would be very easy to solve, which would make them bad mysteries (though they might still be great dramas). It's great fun to try to guess which of JKR's red flags are only red herrings, and which ones are the genuine article--but it wouldn't be fun at all if every red herring turned out to be a red flag. So if the mirror turns out to be a red herring, fine; its job was to make us wonder whether it was going to be used, and thereby to heighten the suspense and complicate the mystery. Amy Z From clio44a at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 20:21:17 2003 From: clio44a at yahoo.com (clio44a) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:21:17 -0000 Subject: Whoa Nelly! Lots of Snape, was Harry in NEWT Potions Class? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87793 After watching this nice Snape debate for a while now (nice, because not everyone agrees), I would like to get in a thought or two: Regarding Sirius death: Some folks say Snape shares a lot of guilt for Sirius death, because he stopped the Occlumeny lessons, and that he was going against Dumbledore's direct orders here. for example Alla writes in an response to Amanda: >But and here > comes my disagreement - supposedly before Dumbledore asked Snape to > teach Harry Occlumency, he (on his own or together with Snape) went > through all these reasons and decided that it is more important to > teach Harry and Snape has to risk his cover. Correct? >So, it is even worse offense in my book for Snape deciding on his own >to stop the lessons. Now, do you honestely think that Dumbeldore didn't know about the end of the lessons? Snape may or may have not told him directely, that's up for debate. I think it would be in character for him to straight march up to Ddore and tell him of Harry breaking into his private memories. What I find more interesting is, that Remus, after Harry tells him and Sirius about what he has seen in Snape's pensieve, says that he will talk about the occlumency lessons with Snape. (OooP, p592 Brit. ed.)And Remus even urges Harry to go back to Snape himself. (Well, we know Harry never did that.) Remus also tells Harry that nothing is more important than the occlumency lessons. And he indicates that Dumbledore will be angry when he hears about the end of it. Now I wonder: If that is all so important, did Remus never go to talk to Snape? Or if Snape refused to continue, did neither Sirius nor Remus inform Ddore of this? Hard to believe. There are 2 possibilites: None of the three adults (Snape, Remus and Sirius)informed Ddore about the end of the oh so important lessons. - that would mean Sirius neglected his duties as a godfather, Remus didn't care enough for Harry and Snape was untruthful to his employer. Or Ddore knew one way or the other about the end of the lessons and choose to to nothing about it. - He could have thaught Harry himself, or he could have found Harry another teacher, or he could have forced Harry and Snape to continue. We don't know if Snape and Ddore had a serius talk together, but we know that Ddore made absolutely no move to talk to Harry about what happened in Snape's office. So it boils down to this: either Ddore agreed about the end of the occlumency lessons, or Sirius is a lousy godfather. Regarding what Harry sees in Snape's pensieve: vmonte writes (in what has become a subthread of this): >There are several times in his memory that Snape >has recorded events that he could not possibly have seen. Several >times he is transfixed with what he is reading yet his memory has >recorded other conversations and events outside his field of vision >and hearing. Snape even sees what is happening around him when he is >hanging upside down with his clothes over his head. Why is this? >Are these memories completely true, or are they slightly altered--for >Harry's viewing pleasure? I'm not sure. I have always thought that it is the point of a pensieve to look at memories from all sides, from different POVs, not only your own limited view when the memory took place. Remember how Harry looked around when he fell into Ddore's memories of the DE trials? If he could see Ddore's and Ddore's view only, he wouldn't have been able too look in the face of Ddore, right? So, I don't think the memories in Snape's pensieve are altered. Clio From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Tue Dec 30 20:34:21 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:34:21 -0000 Subject: Just suppose Snape is at the heart of it all In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87794 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arcum42" wrote: Perhaps the Dark Lord will be defeated through the power of chocolate... --Arcum The Sergeant Majorette says Yes! Real life science tells us that chocolate contains a chemical that mimics the effects on the brain of being in love (at least, for females). WW science tells us that chocolate puts the happy back in you after a Dementor attack. Therefore, it is entirely reasonable that chocolate to Voldemort would be like garlic to a vampire. If only JKR would so surrender to the whimsy we know is within her! --JDR0 From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 20:36:43 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:36:43 -0000 Subject: Whoa Nelly! Lots of Snape, was Harry in NEWT Potions Class? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87795 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "clio44a" wrote: > Now, do you honestely think that Dumbeldore didn't know about the end > of the lessons? Yes, I do. I also think that even if he knew he did not have enough time to do anything about it > So it boils down to this: either Ddore agreed about the end of the > occlumency lessons, or Sirius is a lousy godfather. > Nope, there is a third possibility. As I said Dumbledore may have learned about it too late and had no time to force Harry to continue or as I said not to know about it at all till the end. Alla From angela_glor at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 20:51:31 2003 From: angela_glor at yahoo.com (angela_glor) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:51:31 -0000 Subject: Avaricious Fudge? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87796 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jotwo2003" wrote: >Re-reading OOP I've had a few thoughts about Fudge. Even though by >the end he had been forced to accept that Voldemort was back I think >he is going to cause more trouble for the good side in the next >books. (I think this is my own theory but I've read so many >discussions in fandom that sometimes I'm not sure where ideas comes >from.) I think you are on the right track, for sure. I think it would be a big disappointment if JKR just dropped the whole Fudge plot line. I think Fudge's denial and footdragging will continue, but it won't be quite so "in your face" and overbearing. He would be more likely, I think, to believe his constituents want new sewers and improved trash pick up than devoting those resources to the upcoming war. Also, Fudge has a political problem. He has already staked his political fate on "Voldemort hasn't returned and Harry is crazy." It isn't easy to make an about-face in politics like that and expect people to take your seriously once you want to claim that Harry is sane and Voldemort is back. He has ironically worked very hard to undermine his own credibility. >Now, I know The Quibbler has been presented in canon as the sort of >newspaper that makes the National Enquirer look like the Financial >Times, but I get the impression that fans suspect that there may be >a kernel of truth in some of its outrageous stories. I'm not a big fan of the tabloids, but they sometimes do get the real story more quickly than the major papers. That was the case in the Clinton/Lewinsky scandal, right? I wish I had a better understanding of just how the Quibbler is going to factor into the last two books. I don't really see the point of Luna or the Quibbler, really, although I did like Luna very much. Angela From angela_glor at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 20:58:37 2003 From: angela_glor at yahoo.com (angela_glor) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:58:37 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Mirror and Chekhov's Gun In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87797 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z" wrote: > But, you know, I don't even accept Chekhov's Law. Even > dramatic geniuses don't have the one and only formula for > writing great drama, and furthermore, Chekhov wasn't writing > mysteries. I don't accept it either. If any form of art operated under unyielding and inflexible laws, then it wouldn't be art. It would be mathematics. I remember that when I was learning the basics of writing, I had a teacher who was very serious about grammar and punctuation and all of the conventions of paragraph and sentence structure. I asked him about why it is that great authors are allowed to break the rules, even to the point of writing poetry without capital letters. He replied, "You have to know the rules before you are allowed to break them." My concern is that the series is becoming a bit disjointed, though. "Guns" in HP are being introduced, yes, and some will be fired and some won't. The problem is that there is a fine line between a carefully constructed series with guns that fire and guns that make no noise and have no purpose, and I worry that this series is likely going to wind up on the wrong side of that line. Things like Sirius' mirror make me feel that way at times. Angela From clio44a at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 21:31:55 2003 From: clio44a at yahoo.com (clio44a) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 21:31:55 -0000 Subject: Whoa Nelly! Lots of Snape, was Harry in NEWT Potions Class? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87798 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "clio44a" wrote: [snip] > > So it boils down to this: either Ddore agreed about the end of the > > occlumency lessons, or Sirius is a lousy godfather. > > > > Nope, there is a third possibility. As I said Dumbledore may have > learned about it too late and had no time to force Harry to continue > or as I said not to know about it at all till the end. > > > Alla And exactely that 'third possibility' I find hard to believe Well, Ddore was not Headmaster of Hogwarts anymore when the Occlumency incident happened, I'll give you that. But still he was in contact with the Order members. Maybe he even went to the meetings in Grimmauld Place. So Sirius and Remus surely had plenty of possibilities to bring their case before Ddore. Why didn't they? At least to Harry they make occlumency sound pretty important. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Reaction of Sirius and Lupin after Harry has told them Snape threw him out (OooP, p592)abbr.: 'He WHAT?"shouted Sirius ... 'Are you serius, Harry?' said Lupin quickly ... 'I'm coming to have a word with Snape' said Sirius forcefully ... 'If anyone is going to Snape it will be me!' he [Lupin]said firmly.'But Harry, first of all, you're to go back to Snape and tell him that on no account is he to stop to give you lessons - when Dumbledore hears-' 'Harry, there is nothing so important as you learning Occlumency! said Lupin sternly. 'Do you understand me? Nothing?' +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ To me that does sound as if Remus and Sirius would do everything within their power to keep those lessons going. After, unsuccessfully, contacting Snape over the Order-secret-mail-whatever system they must have talked to Ddore or McGonagall, who seems to have at least some influence over Harry and Snape. Sure, that is an extrapolation from the canon, but it seems to me the only sensible thing to do if Occlumency is indeed so important. And also I don't buy that perhaps Ddore knew about the end of the lessons, but had no time to contact Harry. No time? Is there anything more important than to prevent the enemy having access to your young hero's mind? Ddore could also have asked McGonagall to talk to Harry, if he could not do so personally. I stand by my opinion, either Ddore agreed about the end of the lessons or Remus and Sirius are lousy guardians. Personally I lean to the first. Ddore might have realized that it was impossible for Harry to learn Occlumency from Snape. May that be because of Snape's poor teaching skills, their mutual dislike or Harry's unwillingness to learn the subject. Clio From sophierom at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 21:41:22 2003 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 21:41:22 -0000 Subject: What if the Weasley's are the heir's of Slytherin? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87799 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Is it possible that the Weasley's are the heir's of Slytherin? > What's interesting in book two is that the diary (or rather Tom > Riddle) can only be reborn via sucking the life out of Ginny. Maybe > he needed to specifically use a Slytherin heir to be reborn again. > And why did Riddle choose Ginny anyway? He could have picked any > other kid, like Malfoy, who is also a pureblood (he would have been only to happy to open the chamber). > > So why choose a Weasley? Sophierom: I think this is a very interesting idea, but there may be a simpler answer to your question about why Lucius and LV chose a Weasley. Here's a quote from COS, US ed., pp. 335 - 336: "'A clever plan,' said Dumbledore in a level voice, still staring Mr. Malfoy straight in the eye. 'Because if Harry here' - Mr. Malfoy shot Harry a swift, sharp look - 'and his friend Ron hadn't discovered this book, why - Ginny Weasley might have taken all the blame. No one would have ever been able to prove she hadn't acted of her own free will ...' "Mr. Malfoy said nothing. His face was suddenly masklike. "'And imagine,' Dumbledore went on, 'what might have happened then ... The Weasleys are one of our most prominent pure-blood families. Imagine the effect on Arthur Weasley and his Muggle Protection Act, if his own daughter was discovered attacking and killing Muggle-borns ...'" Sophierom: So, by choosing one of the Weasley children, Lucius could claim a political victory by killing the Muggle Protection Act. Now, what's less clear is why he chose Ginny. vmonte: open the chamber (Lucius could have easily put the diary in with > their books). He chose Ginny because she was a "silly little girl" > (who would not attract attention). Plot wise it also makes sense because Lucius had the best chance to give the diary to Ginny in Flourish and Blotts. But Lucius is a pretty resourceful guy (and JKR is a resourceful author!). He could have given the diary to another Weasley. But maybe he (and JKR) figured it was more realistic that a young, impressionable girl would write in a diary. Fred, George, and Ron don't really seem like the contemplative type. Now, Percy ... he would have been an interesting one to give the diary to ... I think he would have written in it about Penelope and his hopes for becoming a powerful politician or something like that. vmonte: > I think that Riddle's big mistake was choosing Ginny because I think > she is going to turn out to be a very powerful witch. She may also > have gained some of Voldie's power via their personal encounter (just > like Harry did through his encounter with Voldemort). Sophierom: I agree completely. I also think that this will help create a stronger friendship between Harry and Ginny in the last 2 books (whether or not that friendship will develop into something more, I'll let the SHIP fans out there debate). vmonte: > If the Weasley's are descended from Slytherin it would prove that > destiny is shaped by the person and not by their heredity. Sophierom: Absolutely. I think this is one of the major themes in the series, and it would be a great way to drive this idea home if Harry ends up being best friends with one of LV and Slytherin's relatives! Hope everyone has a happy new year! Best, Sophierom From pjcousins at btinternet.com Tue Dec 30 21:42:49 2003 From: pjcousins at btinternet.com (confusinglyso) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 21:42:49 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Mirror and Chekhov's Gun Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87800 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Angela" wrote: in post #87797, first part snipped >My concern is that the series is becoming a bit disjointed, >though. "Guns" in HP are being introduced, yes, and some will be >fired and some won't. The problem is that there is a fine line >between a carefully constructed series with guns that fire and guns >that make no noise and have no purpose, and I worry that this series >is likely going to wind up on the wrong side of that line. Things >like Sirius' mirror make me feel that way at times. >Angela now Phil, (confusinglyso) I wonder whether the broken pieces of mirror will be usable by the trio, and maybe even the MoM six, in some adventure in book 6. A broken mirror is still a mirror. Phil From kmsyarto at hotmail.com Tue Dec 30 21:21:58 2003 From: kmsyarto at hotmail.com (marigoldevans) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 21:21:58 -0000 Subject: Let's hear it for good old Snapey! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87801 Devin (in response to Kneasy) writes: > Oh, the fault I find with Harry for looking in that Pensieve. Oh, > the lost progress in the Snape-Harry relations. It seemed to me > Harry had earned a modicum of Snape's respect and a smidgeon of his > understanding (which says a lot for Snape because Harry didn't really > seem to reciprocate). > > But I don't know if Snape didn't whine or moan. I'll bet he did-- > once, before he recognized it was useless--and then went on. And > Snape simply did not have as high-minded a cause as his pupil's lack > of effort on his mind when he threw Harry out. He had him out as a > gut reaction to Harry's BETRAYAL (it's like reading a diary, only > about a thousand times worse). That, coupled with the reinforced > father-son similarity thanks to the memory relating to the father, > was too much for the man. Oddly, I think Snape's behavior towards > Harry after the Pensieve incident reads more like embarassed than > angry, though he is vindictive on at least one occasion. I am having a bit of trouble with the idea of betrayal in this scene. Please pardon me if this idea has been broached in previous postings, but in all of the Snape/Harry/pensieve bun-fighting, no one seems to have wondered about Snape placing his thoughts in the pensieve IN FRONT OF HARRY. Honestly, to continue the diary analogy, it would be like Snape slapping his diary on his desk under Harry's nose, face up, showing the title "Snape's very super private diary: Do not touch! (Especially you, Harry Potter!)" Really, who could resist? (Okay, don't jump all over me.) Personally, if I had super top-secret private thoughts that I didn't want Harry Potter to know about, I would have removed them into the pensieve and HIDDEN IT before Harry ever showed up in my office. So, why do something so provocative? Is it possible that Snape possibly wanted Harry to see that particular memory? Marigoldevans, who had only one English teacher parent to her credit and so apologizes for lack of grammatical accuracy, and who also hopes that---for crying out loud---she is no longer being moderated! From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 21:32:56 2003 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 21:32:56 -0000 Subject: Methods of Communication in The Order Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87802 A couple of things have me wondering about what all ways The Order may communicate covertly. First, it has been posted that DD may be using his photo on the chocolate frogs similarly to the way portraits are used. Is this a way for him to communicate with the order as well as "spy" (for lack of a better word)? Second, much has been posted about the Quibbler and how it has a thread of truth among the ridiculous. Does anyone think this is deliberate and another way The Order communicates or gains information, along the lines of "Men In Black?" Why, then, do you suppose Luna and Ginny read it upside down? Could it be code? If people focused only on the ridiculous, they would tend to dismiss it, much like the majority of folks in grocery store checkouts. However, knowing "the code", one could purchase a readily-available Quibbler and not give away about being in The Order or draw attention to themselves. Could reading it upside down be a trick Ginny learned through using the Extendable Ears? Third, does anyone else have ideas about how the Order may communicate, other than owls, portraits, and fireplaces? Julie From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 22:05:13 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 22:05:13 -0000 Subject: Male or Female In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87803 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kyntor70" > wrote: > > I am trying to remember if JKR has ever specified Blaize Zambini's > > sex? I don't remember if she did, does anyone else? > > > > Kyntor > > Geoff: > As a former Maths teacher, my reaction would be that the pupil was > male because my first thought is of Blaise Pascal whose name is > remembered in such things as Pascal's Triangle among others. After waiting for someone else to look up the etymology, I did it myself. Here's what I found at http://www.behindthename.com/nmc/fre.html: BLAISE m French Pronounced: BLAYZ >From the Roman name Blasius which meant "lisping" from Latin blaesus. A famous bearer was Blaise Pascal, a mathematician and philosopher from France. "Lisping," eh? Not a very formidable Slytherin. Wonder what Zabini (no M) means or implies? Carol From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Dec 30 22:07:25 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 22:07:25 -0000 Subject: Avaricious Fudge? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87804 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "angela_glor" wrote: jotwo2003 wrote; > >Now, I know The Quibbler has been presented in canon as the sort of > >newspaper that makes the National Enquirer look like the Financial > >Times, but I get the impression that fans suspect that there may be > >a kernel of truth in some of its outrageous stories. > Angela: > I'm not a big fan of the tabloids, but they sometimes do get the real > story more quickly than the major papers. That was the case in the > Clinton/Lewinsky scandal, right? I wish I had a better understanding > of just how the Quibbler is going to factor into the last two books. > I don't really see the point of Luna or the Quibbler, really, > although I did like Luna very much. Geoff: You are overlooking the fact that, although the "Quibbler" may be the "Sun" or something similar in the Wizarding World, the return of Voldemort had been trumpeted in the "Prophet" which is much more equivalent to the "Times" or "Daily Telegraph" which are the UK big guns broadsheets and would be listened to and read by a much wider and more discerning readership. From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Dec 30 22:31:10 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 22:31:10 -0000 Subject: Let's hear it for good old Snapey! In-Reply-To: <13C7BD90-3ADC-11D8-B947-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87805 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith wrote: Kneasy: > As a proto-typical boring old fart (and proud of it), I get a bit > exercised when Sevvy gets accused of bullying, mental abuse and > "lacking people skills," whatever that may mean. Putting on one side your medical problems, whether you are proud of them or not :-), the fact is that Snape apparently is guilty of these matters. When I taught, I frequently taught the new pupils - often the entire year group of them in the course of a week. The first few lessons would include, among other things, making them aware of their surroundings in your particular subject, to try to introduce them sensibly to new terms and ideas particularly if it was a subject they had not covered at Junior or Middle School. No way did you start trying to curry favourites; no way did you start to belittle pupils; no way did you start asking them questions which they could not hope to answer - as Snape did with Harry on their first meeting. He starts with sarcasm when he is calling the register and makes no attempt to curb Draco and his minders at that point. And he then blames Harry when Neville's experiment goes wrong. And of course, there are the on- going jibes at Hermione about being a know-all. Hardly guaranteed methods which will build confidence and trust in the pupils in the future. Kneasy: > The idea that no child should be exposed to disappointment, sarcasm or > criticism seems ludicrous. That would result in pretty poor preparation > for adult life IMO. Geoff: Who said they shouldn't? A child may well do a piece of work not up to scratch and be disappointed or criticised for not reaching their best. A child should have som idea of your expectations from your knowledge of their progress and should also have their own targets. I have occasionally also indulged in light sarcasm to quell over- exuberance but when you've been in a school long enough to be teaching the childen of former pupils, your jokes are usually well- known! It is when these traits are displayed without a reference point for them right from the beginning that I suspect the teacher. I remember a Woodwork teacher when I was 11 who was like that. I was hopeless at the subject and I hated his guts for evermore because he, like Snape, took every opportunity to rub in the fact that you were not good. No encouragement, no advice, just continual carping. Kneasy: > Harry is an obstreperous, obstructive, argumentative, stubborn, > disobedient, idle little sneak. Geoff: Many of us were at that age. Does that excuse a grown teacher of perhaps three times Harry's age that he behaves in such a biased, self-centred and critical manner? Perhaps he should consider taking up a job as a TV political interviewer. :-) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 22:46:24 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 22:46:24 -0000 Subject: Rosmerta - First or Last? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87806 I am dangerously treading on the boundary between what is on-topic and what is off, but I'll give it a shot anyway. This concerns Madame Rosmerta's name. Do you think Rosmerta is her first name or her last name? I've always taken it to be her first name, and while that goes against the standard convention of using titles like 'Madame', it still seems reasonable to me. The 'Madame' part of her name is to show respect to an independant business woman, not to mention you don't want to get on the bad side of the woman who controls the taps. But because she is in the hospitality business, she would want to be on very friendly terms with her customers. The combination of the two yields my conclusion that 'Madame Rosmerta' is Title+FirstName. Any thoughts? FYI: In Gaulish Celtic mythology, Rosmerta was the goddess of fire, warmth, and abundance. A flower queen and hater of marriage, Rosmerta was also the queen of death. A Celtic goddess of fertility and wealth, whose cult was widely spread in Northeast Gaul. Rosmerta was the wife of Esus, the Gaulish Hermes. Her attributes are a cornucopia and a stick with two snakes. bboy_mn From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 22:52:19 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 22:52:19 -0000 Subject: Fidelius swap In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87807 Kneasy wrote: The interesting aspect of Sirius is that the closer you look, the more suspect he becomes. You may remember I posted a piece a few months back that analysed one of the key passages in the tale [T]hat is Sirius - post no. 79808 Sirius Reservations. His story (or at least the part I covered) just does not have credibility - as I said at the time, it's got more holes than the local golf course. HunterGreen: I looked your post over, and the only real hole I can agree with is him being able to swim after being in prison for 13 years, although it could have something to do with his animagi form (perhaps his dog form was stronger than he was). Carol responds: Add to that his being able (as a dog) to slip through the bars of his prison, which must mean that he was very undernourished--yet he's able to swim that long distance and is later described as "a great black dog"--not a skinny, undernourished one despite his having lived mostly on rats. (Gee, I wonder what prompted that choice of diet?) Carol From grahadh at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 23:03:51 2003 From: grahadh at yahoo.com (grahadh) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 23:03:51 -0000 Subject: Pensieve Memories (Was: Re: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? . . . ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87808 > Fred wrote: > > > And just like you mentioned "There are several times in his memory > > that Snape has recorded events that he could not possibly have > seen. > > Several times he is transfixed with what he is reading yet his > memory > > has recorded other conversations and events outside his field of > > vision and hearing." > > Berit replies: > Canon seems to suggests that the person entering the > pensieve memory may move about freely; hearing and seeing things > quite far away from the owner of the memory as long as he or she > doesn't wander out of sight of said person. Now me: I'm not sure that canon does suggest that you may be able to hear everthing in the surrounding environment or that MWPP were outside Snape's range of sight and hearing. IMO, MWPP were within Snape's range of hearing and that if Snape hadn't heard them, Harry wouldn't have been able to either. When Harry was immersed in Dumbledore's thoughts in GOF, he remained seated next to Dumbledore the entire time he was at the hearings. And in OOP he stayed near Snape the entire time as well. Although he apperared to be absorbed in his test paper, it is possible that Snape was using that as a guise and that he followed MWPP out to the lake and was eavesdropping on their conversation, though we aren't told why. In GOF Harry was able to hear Dumbledore's conversations and Mr. Crouch or others speaking with the people on trial, but other than that all Harry heard was general mumuring or outcries from the crowd. This suggests that if Snape hadn't been able to hear what they were saying Harry wouldn't have been able to either. (the pensieve pages in GOF are 585-596 US edition). So IMO the memory we saw was one of Snape eavesdropping on MWPP for what ever reason and the humiliating events that followed. -Dhyana From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 23:05:07 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 23:05:07 -0000 Subject: OOP:Favorite Lines... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87809 Berit (listing favorite lines): > And lastly; a sad one: > > "Snape the teenager had a stringy, pallid look about him, like a > plant kept in the dark." Very sad picture... I just realized that "stringy" is the same adjective used to describe the unnamed Slytherin boy who was able to see the Thestrals (I think it's Theodore Nott, the son of a weak and perhaps unwilling Death Eater, though it could be Blaise Zabini). Do we have another juvenile Snape on our hands, a troubled and abused teenager who could go either way, toward good or evil? Maybe I'm reading in too much, but given the little we know about Nott, Sr., I don't think I am. (BTW, I agree with Berit about the line presenting a very sad but vivid picture in just a few words. Snape haters should pay attention here and feel some sympathy.) Carol From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 23:05:13 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 23:05:13 -0000 Subject: Whoa Nelly! Lots of Snape, was Harry in NEWT Potions Class? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87810 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "clio44a" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" > wrote: > > I stand by my opinion, either Ddore agreed about the end of the > lessons or Remus and Sirius are lousy guardians. > > Personally I lean to the first. Ddore might have realized that it was > impossible for Harry to learn Occlumency from Snape. May that be > because of Snape's poor teaching skills, their mutual dislike or > Harry's unwillingness to learn the subject. > > Clio Oh, it is Remus and Sirius fault now. OK. Personally I can only applaud Sirius for not going anywhere near Snape. For once he showed formidable restraint. Actually, we don't know whether they did not talk to Snape. Personally I think that Remus could do it. It is highly likely to me nape did not listen to him. Dumbledore may have agreed to the end of the lessons, but I doubt that. When I said there was not enough time, I did not mean that Dumbledore did not think that continuing lessons was the most important thing at the moment. I meant that the events happened too fast for him to react. After all, at the end of the OoP he confesses to Harry that he committed whole lot of mistakes. That could very well be another one. Let me repeat, I do consider Dumbledore to be the absolutely worst offender in the situation, but I blame Snape too. Alla From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 23:15:23 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 23:15:23 -0000 Subject: Trelawney a future Voldemort Target? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87811 Kate wrote: > I got the impression that Trelawney would have left had Dumbledore > not intervened. That means to me that she didn't think she was in > grave danger if she left the Hogwarts grounds. > Kate Carol: She shrieked so loudly that Snape left his office and interrupted his occlumency lessons to see what was going on. I don't know if she was terrified of Voldemort specifically. My thought was that she was afraid of homelessness and unemployment, which might well justify tears, but the shrieking does seem to suggest that she had grounds to fear an even worse fate. I do think she would have left, but only because she thought she had no choice. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 23:44:41 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 23:44:41 -0000 Subject: Fidelius swap In-Reply-To: <006201c3c9f0$1739e4f0$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87812 Kathryn Cawte wrote: If Sirius had broken under torture > and given away information it would have been tragic, as it would have been > if Peter had, but Peter didn't give up information under torture he > willingly handed it over. You seem to want to believe Peter was protecting > his family or something by spying for Voldemort - but he no longer seems to > have a family and yet he continues to work for Voldemort. I agree with your general position, but Peter did have a mother who apparently loved him. She received his finger in a box, remember? So it's possible that his terror of Voldemort was at least in part a fear of what LV would do to his mother if he didn't follow orders. (No, that doesn't justify Peter's behavior, but it does give Sirius, who doesn't care a fig for his family, an advantage over him--less to fear in terms of retaliation. I think Sirius should have realized that Peter was a poor choice as Secret Keeper for that reason even if he had actually been loyal to James. If Sirius couldn't trust himself to keep the secret, how could he trust Peter, who was so much weaker? He should have trusted his own capacity for cleverly hiding from the DEs. Just apparate to Egypt or Bermuda or whereever and they'd never find him.) Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 00:04:30 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:04:30 -0000 Subject: Umbridge a DE? (Was Re: Trelawney a future Voldemort Target?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87813 > Athena wrote: > > ACT-chually, I think that Umbridge is merely a toady and is just as > eager to please as Percy is. I think she is vile and venomous, but > I don't think she's actually a Death Eater and I doubt she is on > Voldemort's payroll. I think Fudge is someone who sold his soul a > long time ago to Voldemort. I doubt there's the black mark on his > arm, but his soul has been bought and paid for with advancement in > the Ministry above his competence level. > > I also think that Lucius Malfoy may have helped to further Fudge's > candidacy knowing that he'd have someone who would be in a position > to be "amenable" to hearing his supplications. Because of course, > Malfoy would have blackmail material on exactly why Fudge got where > he is. > > Therefore, I think that Voldemort is issuing orders via Malfoy to > Fudge who then dispatches his toady Umbridge to do whatever it is > that is necessary with no questions asked. Hence the terminology > that Umbridge was instructed to try and get Trelawney removed. I agree that Umbridge is a toady (note the toad imagery used to describe her) and that Fudge has been bought by Lucius Malfoy (which doesn't necessarily imply that he's a willing tool of Voldemort; until the end of OoP, he seems to believe that Voldemort was conveniently destroyed and that Malfoy was rightly cleared of charges of being a DE because he was under an Imperius curse). But I'm not so sure that Umbridge was under orders from Fudge via Malfoy to get rid of Trelawney. I think she merely saw Trelawney as an easy target, a clearly incompetent teacher whom she could use to display her authority and power as High Inquisitor. She tried to fire Hagrid for the same reason. I doubt that she was under orders to fire him because he could provide valuable information to Voldemort if he were captured and tortured. Carol From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Wed Dec 31 01:22:19 2003 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 01:22:19 -0000 Subject: Blaise Zabini (Re: Male or Female) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87814 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kyntor70" > > wrote: > > > I am trying to remember if JKR has ever specified Blaize Zambini's > > > sex? I don't remember if she did, does anyone else? > > > > > > Kyntor > > > > Geoff: > > As a former Maths teacher, my reaction would be that the pupil was > > male because my first thought is of Blaise Pascal whose name is > > remembered in such things as Pascal's Triangle among others. > > > After waiting for someone else to look up the etymology, I did it > myself. Here's what I found at http://www.behindthename.com/nmc/fre.html: > > BLAISE m French > Pronounced: BLAYZ > From the Roman name Blasius which meant "lisping" from Latin blaesus. > A famous bearer was Blaise Pascal, a mathematician and philosopher > from France. > > "Lisping," eh? Not a very formidable Slytherin. Wonder what Zabini (no > M) means or implies? > > Carol Hi, Of course, there's Blaise Pascal. But in French classic literature, Blaise is also a traditional name for valets. It's even a kind of clich? in our 19th century's literature. For example, you find it in Victor Hugo's famous play "Ruy Blas". "Blas" is the Spanish version of "Blaise". Hugo used it in combination with "Ruy", that comes from "Rodrigo", to name the main character of the play, a servant who becomes minister, and to show the hiatus between his humble condition (Blas the servant) and his noble soul (Rodrigo is traditionally a noble first name; in Spain it was the name of the Cid). But this is not a reply concerning old Uncle Hugo. So let's come back to "our" Blaise Zabini. Not a very formidable Slytherin? Why not; after all, he's just a name in the series. But it's a very nice name for a Slytherin boy. There's in "Blaise Zabini" a nice lipsing alliteration : "ZZZZZ", and it's a very snake- like sound. By the way, Italian patronymics were also clich?s in our 19th century' literature. You can't imagine how many traitors, conspirators, poisoners, swordmen have Italian patronymics in the novels by Alexandre Dumas and other romantic authors. It bothers me, as I'm myself half Venetian, but that's the way it is. Our romantic authors enjoyed clich?s; they also enjoyed history and were fascinated by figures such as Catherine di Medici, Lorenzaccio, Concino Concini, Mazarini, etc Well, dear Blaise Zabini, with a name like that, you could be a nice henchman in a novel by Alexandre Dumas (if you don't know who Alexandre Dumas is, ask Madam Pince for a copy of The Three Musketeers). And you definitely couldn't end in another house than Slytherin. Two Knuts, Iris From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 01:41:44 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 01:41:44 -0000 Subject: Let's hear it for good old Snapey! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87815 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Kneasy wrote: > >>Another poster pointed to the number of times Snape had tried to get Harry expelled as an indicator of his hatred. Really? Who does he always voice this opinion to? Dumbledore. Do you think that he expects DD to take any notice? Of course not. So why do it? All part of the persona Snape is showing to the world. Act the part. It's sound and fury, signifying nothing. Those two may be the best double-act in the Wizarding World.>> > > vmonte- > So you think that Dumbledore and Snape are playing: "good cop, bad > cop?" > > > I do not see much love in Snape's heart. > vmonte Talisman, hanging out on the third floor of the castle, with the ugly old stone head of a medieval wizard--who likes to mutter naughty things in Latin (OoP 738)--asks him to hold the thought while she has a Snape moment. Tut, tut vmonte. Absolutely right Kneasy. It's all Sound and Fury. In posts such as #78215 I've noted before that "Snape's rhetoric and Snape's actions are two entirely different things. To obnoxiously quote myself further: "You might also notice that, in PoA, where M.O.M Law Enforcement could have been a problem, i.e. if Snape pressed charges for being injured by HRH's spells, he instead absolves them. He tells Fudge, "They weren't responsible for their actions." (PoA 386) But when it comes to severe academic punishment for interference, where only Dumbledore has the power (so there is no danger of that power being exercised), he argues they should "be suspended--at the very least." (387) Of course he also "threatened" to hand both Sirius and Lupin straight over to the dementors for kissing , but carried them back to the castle, instead; resuming his bluster in Fudge's presence when the ball was back in DD's court and it didn't matter what Snape said. (Sure, Snape takes away house points and hands out an occasional detention, but in this he has a lot of competition from McGonagall!) Snape is not after Harry. To the contrary, Snape is frequently caught watching over Harry or saving Harry's skin (easy e.g.'s: the SS quidditch matchs, watching for Harry's arrival via Flying Ford Anglia in CoS, hanging around the hump-backed witch in PoA, bursting into Fake!Moody's office in GoF, switching Veritaserum and calling the Order to Harry's aid in OoP). Of course I think he's done a lot more, but we'll avoid controversy for the moment. He has also done a damn fine job of teaching Harry. Who taught the lad the Expelliarmus spell that saved his chestnuts in GoF? Snapey. Who elicited the Serpentsortia Spell that clued Harry in to his parslemouth talents? Snapey. And when the O.W.L. marks come out, I'm betting Harry will be surprised how well he did with Potions ( OoP 716). I'll guarantee that the odious potions essays Harry has had to write, and the embarrassing grilling over ingredients in SS, will come in handy before it's all over. (Some of the potables I like are the Draught of Living Death (SS 138 ) and an infusion of the herb dittany (SS 229), which has uses as a cure for snake bite; an aphrodisiac (can't hurt); and, for those looking forward to the conflagration, is also called Burning Bush because it emits flammable vapors in hot weather.) Who helped Lupin get the MM back so they could arrange the Shrieking Shack reunion in PoA? Snapey. Okay, I've dipped into controversial waters. But really now, do you think Lupin was rifling through Filch's filing cabinet drawers (doubtless without permission) just looking for a Boggart? (PoA 236 ) Naw, that's where the twins found the MM and that's the last place Lupin saw the MM, back in the good old days when Filch confiscated it from the Marauders. Snape catches Harry in the act of sneaking to the tunnel to Hogsmeade. Harry thinks he has fooled Snape, but when he returns, Snape is right there to nab him--because Snape and Lupin know Harry has the map by his knowledge of this particular method of egress. Clearly Snape is wise to the map, and he and Lupin play out the scene. Lupin is allowed to "save" Harry from Snape's supposed wrath (Sound and Fury again) and to take possession of the map with Harry's knowledge, setting up Lupin's alibi for coming to the Shack-- where you may recall--Lupin initially disarms HRH and immediately acknowledges Sirius' innocence.) Leading, among othr things, to Harry's reunion with Sirius. See the "Crying Wolf" and "Spy Games" threads if you've missed this part. I've opined before that Snape's Occlumency-lesson-views of Harry's home life are the reason Moody, Tonks and Lupin show up to put the muscle on the Dursleys at the end of OoP. Something sweet old DD never saw fit to arrange. And by the way, Snape did exactly what he was supposed to do vis-?- vis the Occlumency lessons. From #80164: "You can see for yourself as the plot unfolds, and JKR brings to your attention repeatedly, that Harry's communication with LV significantly increases after his Occlumency lessons begin, and both he and others see this as a result of those lessons. (See. e.g. 542, 553-554.) Moreover, Harry's Dept. of Mysteries vision has stalled out, he can't make progress in it--until he has some break-through sessions DURING Occlumency lessons.(537,593) Dumbledore, himself , reveals that the Occlumency lessons were enabling LV to access Harry's mind: " . . .nothing could have been more dangerous than to OPEN YOU MIND FURTHER to Voldemort while in my presence." (833, my emphasis) [And of course there is that wasp hanging around when Harry gets the final piece of the vision during the History of Magic O.W.L.] Occlumency was all about getting Harry back on track to go to the Dept. of Mysteries-- within DD's timeline (before the end of term)." Then there are my ideas about Snape's protective role during the PoA dementor scene. (##78215, 78258, 78273, 79068, 79635, 79943, 80013, 80168.) Again, I believe there are many more instances of Snape's beneficial involvement in Harry's life, but I'm trying to stick to the ones that don't require a lot of detailed explanation. Some other ideas are in ## 78299, 78307, 78363, 82229, 80164, 78258, etc. Warning: movie contamination. Did you notice a certain still shot from the PoA movie? The one where Snape has his arms flung out, shielding the trio? Hmmmm. Yep, Snape has done a world of good for Harry, and it's not over yet. Back to #78215, I noted that: ` as to the business about Snape not being unable to control his emotions where James/Harry are concerned: "Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to SHUT DOWN those FEELINGS and memories that contradict the lie, and so utter falsehoods in his [LV's] presence without detection. " (Snape, OoP 531, my emphasis)' "Harry, I know you don't like Snape, but he is a SUPERB Occlumens . . ." (Lupin, OoP 527, my emphasis)' Snape fans have seen through the "bad-cop" act before, but the Umbridge office scene is irrefutable evidence of, as I believe Pip put it, "Snape on stage." Snape is not driven by childish spite that muddles his reasoning. The question is, having come as far as Book 5, when are the Snape- haters going to get past THEIR emotional baggage and see what's really going on? Snape is SO leading a double life. He has to maintain his acts for many reasons and many people, including, but not limited to: Voldemort, Fudge, Malfoy, Sirius, and Harry. As the sphinx tells us in GoF: "First think of the person who lives in disguise / Who deals in secrets and tells naught but lies" (629) Subterfuge is Snape's essence. And, Rowling's education in the Classics is not wasted. The image of two-faced Janus, the god of beginnings and endings, is invoked to preside over this series. We began with the revelation of a two- faced Janus, QuirrellMort, and we will end that way, as well. Quirrell saw us in, but-- my condolences to Quirrell fans--he is not coming back. It will be Snape who sees us out in Book 7. Snape's status as Spy, revealed in book 4, is only a part of his secret life. See JKR's interview in The Connection, 12 October 1999: "there is more to him than meets the eye and you will find out *part* of what I am talking about if you read Book 4." (my emphasis) Rowling has repeatedly pointed out that Snape is named after a village. Via The Lexicon, we know that "The village of Snape . . . is located around the long and narrow village green and is evenly split by Snape Beck." That is to say, the entire village is "evenly split" by a stream, so that residents refer to the "front" and "back" of the village, respectively. So appropriate for Snape, the back of whom has yet to be revealed. Just as stuttering Quirrell presented a facade that was 180 degrees in opposition to the ruthless Lord Voldemort, the side of Snape we have not yet fully glimpsed will belie the petty cruelties so many readers hold against him. In fact, we will find that, just as when he refereed the Quidditch match (SS 289), Snape has been willing to endure readers' scorn, throughout the series, to accomplish more important ends. Talisman, returning to her mumbling pal. What's that you say? Mundus vult decipi, et decipiatur? No doubt, old thing, no doubt. From brucebanner at runbox.com Wed Dec 31 00:29:42 2003 From: brucebanner at runbox.com (brucebanner at runbox.com) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:29:42 GMT Subject: OOP:Favorite Lines Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87816 >Berit (listing favorite lines): > And lastly; a sad one: > > "Snape the teenager had a stringy, pallid look about him, like a > plant kept in the dark." Very sad picture... That one was sad. I appreciated the variety, though. A lot of the descriptions of Snape are the same, really. This one did stand out. My favorite line isn't really just one line. I liked how Sirius was often so rude, but in a subtle way. "No, said Harry, ignoring Hermione's affronted look at being cut off in her defence of Kreacher." It was good character development. --BB From BrwNeil at aol.com Wed Dec 31 00:32:06 2003 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (brwneil) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:32:06 -0000 Subject: The New Minister of Magic Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87817 In OotP, did Rowling give us a hint about the future profession of Arthur Weasley? Ron joked about the Gryffindor Quidditch team being so bad that they had as much chance of winning the Quidditch Cup as his father did of becoming Minister of Magic. Gryffindor went on to win the Quidditch Cup. Could Mister Weasley be destined to replace Fudge as Minister of Magic? From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 02:11:59 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 02:11:59 -0000 Subject: (TBAY) Umbridge: The Truth Will Get You Detention Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87818 The grey, forbidding clouds flung an icy sleet toward the few year- round residents of Theory Bay, pelting them mercilessly as they scurried through the cobblestone streets. The tourists and visitors who had breathed life into the town just months ago had drifted back to their busy lives, but the O.L.D.F.A.R.T.S would never leave. Never. They were resilient if nothing else, the O.L.D.F.A.R.T.S. Tom leaned into the brisk winds as he edged his way along the porch railing at George's Tavern. Peering through a cracked window pane, he could make out the flickering of a fire and not much else. The place seemed quiet. Much too quiet, in fact. He chewed his lower lip thoughtfully, contemplating whether it might be possible to get a pick-up game of theorizing on such a dreary evening. As an O.L.D.F.A.R.T., Tom knew that his solemn duty was to theorize under even the most adverse circumstances. He drew a ragged breath, rubbed his tired eyes, squared his shoulders and marched into George's. If the streets were deserted, this was nothing compared to the grim atmosphere inside Theory Bay's lone tavern. George leaned against the bar, idly polishing the same worn bit of wooden countertop again and again, a vacant _expression on his chiseled features. Every stool was empty. Every table deserted. The pool table bore a thick coating of dust, the juke box beckoned forlornly. His eyes locked onto Tom as he perched atop a wobbly stool. "Are you gonna order something or not?" George snapped. "Good grief, George! I just *got* here," Tom objected. "What has gotten into you, anyway?" "What's gotten into me?" George echoed, his voice rising. "WHAT HAS GOTTEN INTO ME? I'll tell you what has gotten into me. *Nothing!* NADA! **ZIP!!** I have *NO* business. There's no one here. No one theorizes anymore! The only people around are those . . . those *HECKLERS* who scream at the top of their lungs about how they *HATE* the Bay!" "Oh, that is utter nonsense, George!" Tom said. "There's been plenty of theorizing going on. There's ESE!Bill and a reprise of MAGICDISHWASHER. Eileen even did a bit of Crouch work just a few weeks back." George shuddered. "I know, I know. But these new theorists . . . they're nice and bright and creative and all, but they don't . . . " "Don't what?" George hesitated, and then the words came tumbling forth in a rush, as though bottled up for months. "They don't *drink, Tom!* They can't hold their liquor! They don't toss tables! Sometimes they don't even *break anything!* They go home by *9 o'clock*! How am I supposed to survive if people won't stay all night, anyway? Where did everybody *go?*" "Look," Tom said compassionately. "I know how you feel. I miss the other O.L.D.F.A.R.T.S too. They just . . . they just kind of vanished, and I don't think we'll be seeing them ever again, at least not before --" "I wouldn't be so sure about that," growled a familiar voice. Tom startled. "Who said that?" he whispered, his eyes darting around the room. "It's *me!* Cindy! I'm back!" Tom stood so suddenly that his bar stool toppled backward. "Cindy?" he said in disbelief. "Where *are* you? I can't see you. Are you wearing an invisibility cloak or something? A disillusionment charm, maybe?" "In a manner of speaking," said the voice. "Here, let me show you." Tom's eyes widened as smoke billowed out of the next barstool. It wafted around lazily for a moment before forming a shapeless, translucent image of Captain Cindy in full dress uniform. She winked and gave Tom her usual toothy smile. "Good heavens! It *is* you! But . . ." Tom stammered helplessly. "I heard . . . I heard you were *dead!* One well- placed 'Banishing' Charm was all it took. That's what they're saying." "Well, they're right. I'm Dead, Dead, Dead. You know, Cedric Diggory dead. James and Lily dead. *Sirius Black* dead. I can hardly believe it myself. I've gone from Captain of the Big Bang to -- to some sort of malodorous *smog* or something!" "Yes, I can see that!" Tom said evenly. "Did it ? did it *hurt?*" he whispered. "A little." George suddenly found his voice. "*You'll* order something, won't you, Cindy?" he asked in a pleading tone. "You betcha! Bring me a 'Deathwish' ? " Seeing the look of incomprehension on George's face, Cindy sighed. "That's Grenadine, Wild Turkey, Peppermint Schnapps, 151 Rum in equal parts ? you're just never going to get the hang of this, are you boy?" She shook her head in exasperation and spun sideways on her stool to face Tom. "OK, Tom, I'm here for some *serious* post-OoP theorizing! I've been *dead* and all, so I suspect I missed some great new theories. But I don't recall a whole lot in the Bay on Umbridge." "Umbridge?" "Yes. Umbridge. You remember Umbridge? A bit of a bad seed, remember Tom?" "Yes, but there's not a whole lot *to* Umbridge, really. She's a tool of the establishment, Harry's oppressor. Yada, yada, yada." "Oh, but we can learn a *lot* from Umbridge, Tom!" Cindy cried, the old manic glint returning to her smoky eyes. "See, I think we've all assumed that Umbridge had a purpose, that she just did what she had to do. That her actions made sense on some level. Me, I'm not so sure. I think her actions were counterproductive, superfluous, unnecessary in a manner of speaking." "You can stop right there, Cindy." Tom folded his arms defiantly across his chest. "No way are you tossing Umbridge on the GARBAGESCOW." "Hold your horses, Tom. I have no intention of making a traditional GARBAGESCOW argument. "No, I submit that what Umbridge did to Harry and to Hogwarts was totally unnecessary. She reacted to a threat that hadn't materialized. She *overreacted!* Her fatal error was that she mistook her own embarrassment at being criticized for a threat to Hogwarts and the wizarding world, see? And each time she tried to tighten the noose around Harry's neck, she failed more and more spectacularly, didn't she? That's because she shouldn't have pulled out a noose at all. No, she should have examined first whether *she* was in the right ? whether *she* was doing the right thing. Only then could she gain the perspective to evaluate the seriousness of the threat presented and realize that the problem ? if there was a problem at all ? lay inside herself." Tom stroked his beard thoughtfully. "Uh. Right. I fancy myself a bit of an expert on mortal combat owing to my experience fending off the Magic Dishwasher Defense Team. But Umbridge? Overreacting? I'm not following you at all." "Well, let's look at Harry and Umbridge's first scene at Hogwarts. Harry is objecting to Umbridge's lesson plan. He is being insubordinate, to be sure. He has a mouth on him, that kid. But what is he actually *doing* that is a problem?" "He's talking," Tom replied. "Exactly!" Cindy cried. "He's just *talking.* Giving his opinion. And the next thing you know, it's ten points from Gryffindor and detention!" "What's wrong with that? She's trying to run a class here, and she can't do that with Harry talking and disagreeing and opining. That undermines what she is trying to do. This is pretty common stuff in oppressive regimes, actually. If you talk ? if you *make trouble* by speaking the truth and saying something the regime doesn't want said -- you get the express bus to Siberia every time." "Ah, but what is the threat, though? What is the real reason Umbridge wants to silence Harry, the real reason dictators banish people to Siberia?" "Power?" "Well, yeah. But knowledge *is* power, as they say. And that is what Umbridge is trying to choke off -- *knowledge.* She doesn't want the students to know about Voldemort's return ? even though it is true. She is overreacting to the embarrassment of having someone without power speak the truth. Harry's providing knowledge to the students isn't a threat to her or to the Ministry in any objective sense. But Umbridge fears what the students will *do* with the truth. "I think it is pretty clear that Umbridge was motivated in that scene by simple embarrassment with a healthy dose of irritation ? a desire to save face, a need to be in control. Look at the descriptions of her as the scene plays out. 'Smiling in a very irritating fashion at Dean.' Talking over people. Shouting. 'Trilling.' Speaking 'dismissively.' And when she places Harry in detention, she announces it publicly to the whole class 'triumphantly' ? she's actually *proud* of it! Then, when Harry won't stop speaking the truth, she *banishes him!*" "That's what you do when someone won't behave." "Maybe, maybe," Cindy allowed. "But what was the threat? What was the horrible sin Harry committed that justified his banishment from the class? It's pretty clear ? he said about Cedric 'Voldemort killed him and you know it.' "Yup, Harry slipped up there. He challenged her. Rather than examine whether she was *right* about Cedric, she reacted out of paranoia, embarrassment and a misplaced and overblown assessment of the threat Harry presented. It was wrong, plain and simple. It only served to make matters worse, it cost Umbridge her credibility and the respect of the students, she created a lot of extra work for herself, and in the end, it didn't even succeed. No, the far better strategy would have been to try to come together, to find common ground, to try to make Harry her ally rather than her enemy. But no. She chose to use brute forth ? to misuse and abuse her position and authority at Hogwarts -- and look where she wound up. She is certainly no better off, but neither is the community she claimed to be trying to protect." The crackling of the fire filled the silence while Tom mulled these words. "Aren't you going to drink that *thing* you ordered?" George asked impatiently, glancing at his watch. "George, now you're just being mean! Cindy *can't* drink! She's a ghost, remember?" Tom turned to Cindy. "Right?" "Well, you may have a point, Tom," Cindy said. "If I try to drink, I might just keel over and die all over again. But hey! What have I got to lose?" Cindy wrapped both hands firmly around the chilled glass and raised it slowly to her parched lips. She gave George one final "come hither" glance over the rim before gulping the drink and slamming the glass to the counter. "Well?" Tom asked expectantly after a moment. "How was it?" "Hmmm. Not bad, Tom," Cindy said thoughtfully. "I think I tasted something. I think I really did. "Just like old times. " -Tom From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 00:58:32 2003 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:58:32 -0000 Subject: Snape and Dumbledore playing good cop, bad cop... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87819 I'm curious, some people think that Snape and Dumbledore are playing some kind of "good cop, bad cop" game with the children. What do you think? Also, I understand that although Snape is a real jerk, he is a tough and dedicated teacher. (I'm not saying that he is a fair teacher, just that he takes his job seriously and expects his students to achieve high marks.) Harry is one of those kids that has talent but doesn't really apply himself. (Hermione is always helping Ron and Harry with their lessons.) I know that there is nothing more frustrating for a teacher than to see a kid that has potential but no goals in life. Snape obviously thinks that Harry is a smart mouth punk who is always breaking school rules. (Of course, Snape's hatred of Harry stems partly from jealousy. Harry has natural talent--unlike Snape who had to work hard to get where he's at.) Also, If Snape only hates Harry because he is a rule breaker like his father was, why doesn't Snape show the same kind of hatred towards Fred and George? How many hexes do you think Fred and George played while they were in school? And would you say that they are bad people? I wonder why Snape hates Hermione? She is a dedicated student, she pays attention in class, and achieves high marks. Is it because she is friends with Harry? Does Snape really hate "mudbloods" or is that also part of his act? If he is prejudiced, it probably kills Snape to see talent coming from a person like Hermione (a mudblood). Why does he torment Neville? Do you really think that he is just toughing him up for the real world? I don't think so. I think Snape's hatred of Harry boils down to jealousy. Snape has had to work hard to get to where he is, and Harry, who doesn't try at all, has more natural ability and talent. Even Hermione who is a dedicated student realizes (in book one) that there is more to being a great wizard than just cleverness. Snape probably also sees this limitation in himself, so Harry's natural ability probably burns him up! Also, I wonder why Snape isn't allowed to teach DADA classes? Why would this class bring out Snape's bad side and not his potions class which could also be used for evil. Is the DADA position really jinxed?, or is it something else? The only thing I can think of is that Snape must have lost control in the past and hurt some innocent person while doing DADA. (He was after all part of the DE.) Is this the real reason why James Potter picked on Snape in school? I remember that in the begining of OOTP Harry was also picking on Dudley. Was James picking on a bully like Dudley? Snape is verbally abusive to his students. Perhaps DADA in the hands of someone like Snape could become lethal to a student (or could be lethal to Snape if he makes the students angry--HAHA). Maybe DADA can only be done successfully by those who are emotionally balanced, those who also have love in them, which serves to keep DADA in check. I do not see much love in Snape's heart. I'm not saying that any of the characters are perfect, they all have faults! Harry has a disregard for rules and shares many of his father's faults, but he is also kind and good hearted like his mother. Snape is one of my favorite wizards so I'm not trashing him. He is a complex and interesting character and I cannot wait to see how he will turn out. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 02:29:18 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 02:29:18 -0000 Subject: Quirrel and Scandinavia? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87820 Berit wrote: > For those of you who like details: The name Quirrel have a small > resemblance to the name "Quisling" (first three letters are the > same :-) which I am sure you all know... Vidkun Quisling turned a > traitor during the 2nd World War, governing Norway during wartime on > German orders. So being a "Quisling" is forever a synonym > for "traitor". So, hm, maybe Quirrel was a Norwegian traitor :-) To me, "Quirrel" suggests "squirrel"--weak and trembling, an easy victim for Voldemort (I can't account for the transformed Quirrel at the end of SS/PS--maybe he's taken on some of Voldemort's personality traits or maybe he's been paradoxically strengthened, as well as corrupted, by drinking unicorn blood.) My guess is that he's English and went to Hogwarts. A first name would help, but the Lexicon says there's no confirmation for Slatero, the name used in the credits for the movie, and I don't know of any other reference to his first name. Odd, since Dumbledore addresses all of his employees and former students by their given names. Maybe he never speaks directly to Quirrel in Harry's hearing? Carol From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 02:53:15 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 02:53:15 -0000 Subject: Let's hear it for good old Snapey! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87821 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" wrote: > And by the way, Snape did exactly what he was supposed to do vis-?- > vis the Occlumency lessons. From #80164: > > "You can see for yourself as the plot unfolds, and JKR brings to your > attention repeatedly, that Harry's communication with LV > significantly increases after his Occlumency lessons begin, and both > he and others see this as a result of those lessons. (See. e.g. > 542, 553-554.) > > Moreover, Harry's Dept. of Mysteries vision has stalled out, he can't > make progress in it--until he has some break-through sessions > DURING Occlumency lessons.(537,593) > > Dumbledore, himself , reveals that the Occlumency lessons were > enabling LV to access Harry's mind: " . . .nothing could have been > more dangerous than to OPEN YOU MIND FURTHER to Voldemort while in my > presence." (833, my emphasis) Let's pretend for a second that I am very slow, shall we? Could you clarify for me what did your statement "Snape did exacly what he was supposed to during Occlumency lessons" meant? Are you saying that the real, hidden purpose of the Oclumency lessons was to open Harry's mind to Voldy ? > Snape fans have seen through the "bad-cop" act before, but the > > > And, Rowling's education in the Classics is not wasted. The image > of two-faced Janus, the god of beginnings and endings, is invoked to > preside over this series. We began with the revelation of a two- > faced Janus, QuirrellMort, and we will end that way, as well. > > Quirrell saw us in, but-- my condolences to Quirrell fans--he is not > coming back. It will be Snape who sees us out in Book 7. > > Snape's status as Spy, revealed in book 4, is only a part of his > secret life. See JKR's interview in The Connection, 12 October 1999: > "there is more to him than meets the eye and you will find out > *part* of what I am talking about if you read Book 4." (my emphasis) > > Rowling has repeatedly pointed out that Snape is named after a > village. Via The Lexicon, we know that "The village of Snape . . . > is located around the long and narrow village green and is evenly > split by Snape Beck." > > That is to say, the entire village is "evenly split" by a stream, so > that residents refer to the "front" and "back" of the village, > respectively. > > So appropriate for Snape, the back of whom has yet to be revealed. > > Just as stuttering Quirrell presented a facade that was 180 degrees > in opposition to the ruthless Lord Voldemort, the side of Snape we > have not yet fully glimpsed will belie the petty cruelties so many > readers hold against him. > > In fact, we will find that, just as when he refereed the Quidditch > match (SS 289), Snape has been willing to endure readers' scorn, > throughout the series, to accomplish more important ends. > > Talisman, returning to her mumbling pal. What's that you say? > Mundus vult decipi, et decipiatur? No doubt, old thing, no doubt. > > Back to #78215, I noted that: ` as to the business about Snape not > being unable to control his emotions where James/Harry are > concerned: "Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to SHUT DOWN > those FEELINGS and memories that contradict the lie, and so utter > falsehoods in his [LV's] presence without detection. " (Snape, OoP > Snape is not driven by childish spite that muddles his reasoning. > The question is, having come as far as Book 5, when are the Snape- > haters going to get past THEIR emotional baggage and see what's > really going on? > Umm, I advise you to reread Pip's post, whom I can doubt you can call a Snape's hater and tell me whether you really believe that Snape controlled his emotions in the Pensive scene. I am not denying that Snape did some many good things for Harry, but if you can call "Harry being almost killed while possessed by Voldy and being denied the only father figure he ever knew thanks for Snape stopping the lessons" world of good, then you are blinded by your unconditional love for this character and it is your right. But kindly, very kindly I ask you - spare me this "emotional baggage" crap. > Snape is SO leading a double life. He has to maintain his acts for > many reasons and many people, including, but not limited to: > Voldemort, Fudge, Malfoy, Sirius, and Harry. > > As the sphinx tells us in GoF: > "First think of the person who lives in disguise / Who deals in > secrets and tells naught but lies" (629) > > Subterfuge is Snape's essence. It is sooo understandable. Alla From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 03:01:41 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 03:01:41 -0000 Subject: Has Snape ever shown a bias against Hufflepuff? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87822 > wrote: > > Does anyone know whether in canon Snape ever shows a particular > > disdain for Hufflepuff? I know Malfoy does (too bad Draco wasn't > > sorted into Hufflepuff, then he'd have just gone home, right?) but > > does Snape ever actually say anything similar? Arcum wrote: > Not that I see. The only time he took house points from Hufflepuff > was from one of a couple cought in a bush at the yuletide ball, and > he was awarding unfair penalties to Hufflepuff against Gryffindor in > one match, so he favored them over Gryffindor in that case. Also he stood with everyone else to applaud Cedric Diggory at the end of GoF, if that counts for anything, as even Draco did the same. Carol From suzchiles at msn.com Wed Dec 31 03:02:22 2003 From: suzchiles at msn.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 19:02:22 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The New Minister of Magic References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87823 I agree completely. I think Arthur will be the Minister of Magic by the time the series ends. And a very fine one he will be! Suzanne ----- Original Message ----- From: "brwneil" > In OotP, did Rowling give us a hint about the future profession of > Arthur Weasley? > > Ron joked about the Gryffindor Quidditch team being so bad that they > had as much chance of winning the Quidditch Cup as his father did of > becoming Minister of Magic. > > Gryffindor went on to win the Quidditch Cup. Could Mister Weasley be > destined to replace Fudge as Minister of Magic? From amani at charter.net Wed Dec 31 03:39:06 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 22:39:06 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Let's hear it for good old Snapey! References: Message-ID: <018d01c3cf4f$a556c8c0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87824 Alla: I am not denying that Snape did some many good things for Harry, but if you can call "Harry being almost killed while possessed by Voldy and being denied the only father figure he ever knew thanks for Snape stopping the lessons" world of good, then you are blinded by your unconditional love for this character and it is your right. Taryn: I'm still wondering why everyone is citing Snape's end of the lessons as a cause of Sirius' death when there was absolutely NO effort on the pupil's part! It didn't make a difference whether the lessons continued or not, because Harry never tried to practice at ALL. For all we know, if Harry had been practicing since the lessons started, he might have had the skill to block the false images from his mind by that point. This is one thing I don't think can be laid at Snape's door. ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meriaugust at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 04:12:16 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 04:12:16 -0000 Subject: Snape's Worst Memory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87825 I am just reading the chapter in OotP when Harry looks into Snape's pensive, and I have just been wondering why Snape chose the memories he did to put into the pensive (mainly the one of his OWL and young James Potter tormenting him) and keep the ones (like the one of his father and mother yelling) that Harry could see. I would have thought that the memories of his parents fighting and the bucking broomstick and the lonely room would have been equally as embarassing as the OWL day, while the OWL memory has the added bonus of showing Harry exactly how stuck up and arrogant his dad and godfather really were. Any thoughts? Meri From aimking0110 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 04:14:19 2003 From: aimking0110 at yahoo.com (Garrett) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 04:14:19 -0000 Subject: The New Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87826 Yeah i think this too, if this happends this will ass fule to the "Rons a seer" movmet. Garrett P.S. sorry this is kind of short --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Suzanne Chiles" < suzchiles at m...> wrote: > I agree completely. I think Arthur will be the Minister of Magic by the time > the series ends. And a very fine one he will be! > > Suzanne > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brwneil" > > > In OotP, did Rowling give us a hint about the future profession of > > Arthur Weasley? > > > > Ron joked about the Gryffindor Quidditch team being so bad that they > > had as much chance of winning the Quidditch Cup as his father did of > > becoming Minister of Magic. > > > > Gryffindor went on to win the Quidditch Cup. Could Mister Weasley be > > destined to replace Fudge as Minister of Magic? From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 04:25:36 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 04:25:36 -0000 Subject: Quirrel and Scandinavia? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87827 bboy mentioned "a very large sparsely inhabited Russian peninsula to the north east of Finland" as a possible location for Durmstrang and added, "I guess my point here is th[at] despite being in such close proximity to Scandinavia, and generally considered in the Scandinavian region, this Russian peninsula that I speculate is the location of Durmstrang." Berit replied: Actually, I didn't know Rowling said in an interview that Durmstrang is located in Scandinavia. Do you have the exact quote? I'm also a bit hesitant of including the Russian peninsula and Murmansk among the Scandinavian countries. According to my knowledge no part of Russia has ever been considered Scandinavian. I still find it very odd that Durmstrang's in Norway or Sweden. Both the name of the school (German-sounding) and the name of its students (Slavic-sounding) are very foreign to the Scandinavian language. bboy_mn again: > > I will admit that my point was somewhat lost amid my scattered and > jumbled thoughts, but the point was the Murmansk Peninsula of Russia > while not technically a Scandinavian country; it is without a doubt in > the Scandinavian region far more than it is in the European region. I > mean, it touches Norway and Finland in the north, and completely > borders Finland in the west, that's about as deep in the Scandinavian > region as you can get, and equally far from what is traditionally > considered Europe. Carol: I've yet to find the interview in which JKR states that Durmstrang is in Scandinavia. As someone else pointed out, it's not in the Quick Quotes search engine. To me the relevant points are that it's in an area farther north than Hogwarts, which means it must be in either Scandinavia or European Russia, and it's in a mountainous region with lots of lakes. That second point suggests not Sweden, Norway, or the Murmansk Peninsula but the area of Russia just north of St. Petersburg, which has both mountains and two very large lakes. That location would fit well with a headmaster whose name is Igor Karkaroff, which I take to be Russian, and it's slightly closer to Viktor Krum's home country of Bulgaria than the Murmansk Peninsula. I would bet that Antonin Dolohov is also a Durmstrang alum, possibly an old classmate of Karkaroff's. Carol, who wanted Durmstrang to be a little closer to vampire country but will settle for Russia From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Wed Dec 31 04:29:06 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 04:29:06 -0000 Subject: Quirrel's Name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87828 "justcarol67" wrote: Odd, since Dumbledore addresses all of his employees and former > students by their given names. Maybe he never speaks directly to > Quirrel in Harry's hearing? Ok, I'm totally confused at this--what are you talking about? What hearing? Arya From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Wed Dec 31 04:32:25 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (Blair) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 04:32:25 -0000 Subject: Snape's Worst Memory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87829 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > I am just reading the chapter in OotP when Harry looks into Snape's > pensive, and I have just been wondering why Snape chose the memories > he did to put into the pensive (mainly the one of his OWL and young > James Potter tormenting him) and keep the ones (like the one of his > father and mother yelling) that Harry could see. I would have > thought that the memories of his parents fighting and the bucking > broomstick and the lonely room would have been equally as > embarassing as the OWL day, while the OWL memory has the added bonus > of showing Harry exactly how stuck up and arrogant his dad and > godfather really were. Any thoughts? > Meri I thought that it was Severus' way of sort of making common ground between the two of them -- crappy childhoods. The only argument I can think of is that Severus didn't think Harry would be able to see them -- but then why would he have gotten rid of those memories in the first place? Oryomai --Is there a special ward in St. Mungo's for those who maniacally defend Severus? From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Wed Dec 31 04:27:20 2003 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne Dragon) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 22:27:20 -0600 Subject: Let's hear it for good old Snapey! References: <018d01c3cf4f$a556c8c0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: <005201c3cf56$61ef0fa0$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 87830 Alla: I am not denying that Snape did some many good things for Harry, but if you can call "Harry being almost killed while possessed by Voldy and being denied the only father figure he ever knew thanks for Snape stopping the lessons" world of good, then you are blinded by your unconditional love for this character and it is your right. Taryn: I'm still wondering why everyone is citing Snape's end of the lessons as a cause of Sirius' death when there was absolutely NO effort on the pupil's part! It didn't make a difference whether the lessons continued or not, because Harry never tried to practice at ALL. For all we know, if Harry had been practicing since the lessons started, he might have had the skill to block the false images from his mind by that point. This is one thing I don't think can be laid at Snape's door. Anne: It cannot be laid at Snape's door, very right. It's the same as blaming Snape for Sirius showing up at the MOM...even Lupin tells Harry that Sirius was old enough and mature enough NOT to let Snape's jibes get to him badly enough to ignore Dumbledore's request and leave Grimauld Place. That decision, and the consequences of that decision, are solely on Sirius's shoulders (although you *can* safely blame Bella for actaully being the cause of death, since it was her spell that killed and/or pushed Sirius through the doorway at the MOM). He decided, despite many others advising differently, to go to rescue his godson. Admirable, but not the wisest course of action. Likewise, whether people would like to admit it or not, the whole situation of Sirius's death started because, as is habit, Harry ignored the instructions given to him by Dumbledore and forged on with his own ideas anyway--in this case, the idea that what he 'saw' was real, that Snape did NOT want to do anything about it, and therefore, he and the other kids of the club were the only ones who could save Sirius. The point here is that you cannot teach someone who does not want to learn (no matter thier reasons for not wanting to learn), just as you cannot change a person's opinion if they are dead set in thier beliefs and will see no other way. The outrage is that blame is thrown for what happened...and yet none of the ones who did exactly what they were told NOT to do takes responsibility. It certainly gets assigned very quickly, however, and by a 15 year old boy who, although may not understand all the things the adults around him are doing because of lack of experrience, IS grown enough to have had sense to at least listen to Dumbledore, and Dumbledore's requests--no matter what he THOUGHT he was seeing. Like some people cannot understand the roles a spy MUST play to do his job and stay alive, Harry is sorely lacking in information and knowledge...and maturity. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 04:39:47 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 04:39:47 -0000 Subject: Let's hear it for good old Snapey! In-Reply-To: <005201c3cf56$61ef0fa0$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87831 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Silverthorne Dragon" wrote: The outrage is that blame is thrown for what happened...and > yet none of the ones who did exactly what they were told NOT to do takes > responsibility. It certainly gets assigned very quickly, however, and by a > 15 year old boy who, although may not understand all the things the adults > around him are doing because of lack of experrience, IS grown enough to have > had sense to at least listen to Dumbledore, and Dumbledore's requests--no > matter what he THOUGHT he was seeing. Like some people cannot understand the > roles a spy MUST play to do his job and stay alive, Harry is sorely lacking > in information and knowledge...and maturity. I can certainly sign up under the words of your post " Harry is sorely lacking in information and knowledge" Whose fault is it? Harry's? I think Dumbledore's and Snape. I think Harry would grab ANY possibility to listen to Dumbledore's explanations about what is going on. Harry IS old enough to listen, he just did not have anything to listen to. What did this old fool of Headmaster did instead? He makes Snape to teach Harry of all people. It sure made for a great read, but if we were to look within the story... Grrr. :o) Alla Alla From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 04:41:03 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 04:41:03 -0000 Subject: Blundering Dunderhead (Was: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 8, The Hearing) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87832 > Diana L. wrote: > I think your assessment of Fudge and Percy as "Blundering > Dunderheads" is quite accurate. And I just love the name you came > up with! LOL I also don't think Fudge is ESE or that Percy is a > secret spy for Dumbledore. Sometimes basically good characters do > dumb things that end up helping the villian and, IMHO, this is the > case with Fudge and Percy. > I wonder if the Weasleys are going to have a hard time forgiving > Percy? I also wonder what Percy's girlfriend, Penelope > Clearwater, thinks of Percy's break from his family? Or does anyone > else think they broke up as soon as they both graduated from > Hogwarts? I agrtee completely with your assessment of Fudge and Percy as basically good people who have made a serious error in judgment, Fudge's because he's ambitious and not very bright and Percy's because he's young, ambitious, and misunderstood (or underappreciated--take your pick). As for Penelope Clearwater, I mentioned in a previous post that no one responded to that she has a common bond with Ginny--she was a victim of Tom Riddle (one of the petrified muggle-borns). If Penny knows or suspects that the cause of her petrification was a previous incarnation has something to do with Voldemort, she probably would not be at all pleased by Percy's refusal to believe that Voldemort has returned. I wonder if she and Ginny together could somehow convince him to apologize and come back to the family. More likely, though, they'll find it harder to forgive him than Bill and Charlie will. B and C are adults, after all, and presumably wiser at thirty-something than Percy and Penny at twenty and Ginny at fourteen. Or so I would hope. (The twins and Ron may be another matter.) Carol From quigonginger at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 04:43:51 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 04:43:51 -0000 Subject: Quirrel and Scandinavia? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87833 Carol wrote: > To me, "Quirrel" suggests "squirrel"--weak and trembling, an easy > victim for Voldemort (I can't account for the transformed Quirrel at > the end of SS/PS--maybe he's taken on some of Voldemort's personality > traits or maybe he's been paradoxically strengthened, as well as > corrupted, by drinking unicorn blood.) My guess is that he's English > and went to Hogwarts. (snip) > Carol Ginger throws in: I don't know if this has any bearing of Quirrel's nationality, but I was getting my muffler replaced (and reading to beguile the time) and noticed that Quirrel actually *says the name* Voldemort! (US paperback p. 291). This is at the end right before he takes off his turban, so he is not playing the trembling wreck role. Malfoy and Snape don't even say the name. He knows the LV is right there on his head to hear him. We know that LV created the name to have one that wizards would fear to speak (CoS). So Quirrel calls him Voldemort. Norweigans eat lutefisk. Both take guts. May not be a connection, but his using the name may be a helpful hint for you, so I thought I'd throw it in. Ginger, who escaped yet another Christmastide without being confronted with lutefisk. From quigonginger at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 04:51:32 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 04:51:32 -0000 Subject: Quirrel's Name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87834 Carol: > Odd, since Dumbledore addresses all of his employees and former > > students by their given names. Maybe he never speaks directly to > > Quirrel in Harry's hearing? Ayra: > Ok, I'm totally confused at this--what are you talking about? What hearing? Ginger: I think "hearing" was meant to mean that Dumbledore didn't address Quirrel when Harry was there to hear it. I did the same thing. The brain went to the OoP hearing before I reread the sentance. Ginger From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 04:55:49 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 04:55:49 -0000 Subject: Another question for somebody in England (cost of stamps) In-Reply-To: <001f01c3cb72$3f552200$a6706751@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87835 Kathryn Cawte wrote: > Despite being English I am hopelessly out of touch and have no idea how much > a first class or second class stamp costs. But on the manufacturing money > issue - if anyone can manufacture money then it has no value. I saw someone > suggest that you can't transfigure things into pure elements and I suspect > that *maybe* that's why there is no paper money in the wizarding world only > coins. These coins cannot > change in value because they are made of the actual metal and their value > comes not from some belief that a bank will honour them but the actual > intrinsic value of the coins. Presumably the coins are made of gold, silver > and ... uh .... copper? I like your theory but there's one small flaw; knuts are made of bronze, which is an alloy, not a pure element. Still, it would be hard to conjure bronze with the exact imprint of a real coin out of thin air, and we know that Leprechaun gold doesn't last, so conjured wizard money of any denomination wouldn't, either. By the same token (no pun intended), Sirius can't conjure food for himself when he's in hiding even though food isn't a pure element. Too bad--rather limits the superiority of wizards over muggles, who also have to earn rather than conjure our food and money. Carol From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Wed Dec 31 04:44:27 2003 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne Dragon) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 22:44:27 -0600 Subject: Snape's Worst Memory References: Message-ID: <005c01c3cf58$c5a4f620$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 87836 {Oryomai says} I thought that it was Severus' way of sort of making common ground between the two of them -- crappy childhoods. The only argument I can think of is that Severus didn't think Harry would be able to see them -- but then why would he have gotten rid of those memories in the first place? {Anne Says} Well....here's a thought. The embarassments he suffered at other kids hands and the abuse by his father he probably thought he could hide easily enough from Harry because they are not linked directly to painful memories of Harry's Father and Sirius. Thus, it would be far easier to hide them form the inexperienced prying of a 15 year old who hasn't a clue how to utilize Leglimens or Occulimens...by the same token, though...having Jame's son as a student in this particular exercise, whom he doesn't get along with to begin with, is likely to fuel strong feelings--and therefore those memories are likely to be far closer to the surface, and easy to read...so he removes them because THOSE memories he knows Harry is likely to touch upon should he succeed in breaking through...his mistake was in assuming Harry would not be strong enough to find the other memories...Just a thought Then again...I don't look for sinister, hating behaivor in every overture and action Snape makes to and takes to Harry....^^ {Oryomai Says} --Is there a special ward in St. Mungo's for those who maniacally defend Severus? {Anne Says} Yeah,...it's probably right next to the wards for the ones who maniacally defend the other characters, or perhaps down in the basement since Snape seems to be rather fond of his dungeons....*winks* We probably ALL need to be in a ward...hehe Anne From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 05:14:04 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 05:14:04 -0000 Subject: Who Gets Black House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87837 Note: I'm snipping one of catlady's complex posts and apologize for any incorrect attributions. dmoorehpnc wrote: > Just wondering, now that Sirius is dead who inherits Number Twelve > Grimmauld Place? Harry, Tonks, Narcissa? Will the Order still use it > as a meeting Place? > I think Harry will inherit old Number 12 when he comes of age at > the end of the seventh book, so that after triumphing gloriously over > LV, Harry has a home of his own to go to, with Ginny Weasly at his > side (well, that's how I want the books to end anyway ;-)). > catlady wrote: > Would you wish such a horrible house as Number 12 on the young > newlyweds? I think both Harry and the memory of Sirius would be > happier if that house burned completely down. Carol: We seem to be forgetting that Sirius inherited *another* house from his uncle, whose name I can't find in the Lexicon but it's something annoyingly similar to Neville's Uncle Algie. Anyway, I'm sure *that's* the house Sirius was referring to when he said that he had a house of his own that he and Harry could live in and the one he would bequeath to Harry in a will (with no worries about entails imposed by Mrs. Black, who would have no say in the matter). As for what will happen to 12 Grimmauld Place, I hope it goes to Lupin and remains the headquarters for the Order, which still has every need for secrecy. Sirius certainly had the time to write a will and death was undoubtedly on his mind. Whether he had the presence of mind or the consideration for others to put his affairs in order, I can't say. Carol From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Wed Dec 31 05:25:24 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:25:24 -0500 Subject: Two Questions and a Request Message-ID: <476DB3A8.35C5D872.4B073798@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87838 While re-reading OoP, I came up with two questions (only one of which involves Snape!) and one request. 1. Why are the memories of Snape's that Harry sees set up the way they are? To understand what I mean, we have to see the passage: OoP, page 591-591 American Hardback Edition (yea baby!) Snape staggered; his wand flew upward; away from Harry -- and suddenly Harry's mind was teeming with memories that were not his -- a hook-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman, while a small dark-haired boy cried in a corner . . .. A greasy-haired teenager sat alone in a dark bedroom, pointing his wand at the ceiling, shooting down flies . . .. A girl was laughing as a scrawny boy tried to mount a bucking broomstick- <> My question is this: Why are Severus' memories shown from a third person POV? Why didn't Harry see from inside Severus' head? Why are his memories viewed as if he was outside his body watching himself? Any ideas? 2. What is the point of the Katie Bell episode? Here it is: OoP, page 377-378 American Hardback Edition An ink pellet whizzed past them, striking Katie Bell squarely in the ear. Hermione watched Katie leap to her feet and start throwing things at Peeves; it was a few moments befor Hermione spoke again and it sounded as though she was choosing her words very carefully. "You don't think he has become ... sort of .... reckless...since he's been cooped up in Grimmauld Place? You don't think he's...kind of...living through us?" "What d'you mean 'living through us'?" Harry retorted. "I mean...well, I think he'd love to be forming secret defense societies right under the nose of someone from the Ministry....I think he's really frustrated at how little he can do where he is...so I think he's keen to kind of...egg us on." Ron looked utterly perplexed. "Sirius is right," he said, "you *do* sound just like my mother." Hermione bit her lower lip and did not answer. The bell rang just as Peeves swooped down upon Katie and emptied an entire ink bottle over her head. <> Notice that the conversation in between the Peeves v. Katie battle is important to the plot. Why was Peeves v. Katie included at all? Is it going to be important later, or is it just a funny episode? And now my request: My English teacher gave me permission to attach a "Harry Potter Appendix" to all of my papers, since I couldn't restrain myself from talking about it in the papers themselves (my entire Inferno/The Prince essay was about HP!). Our next paper is about moral ambiguity, and it *screams* to me to write a Severus Snape paper for her. I was wondering if any of you have strong feelings about Severus (either for or against him) - and I know you do! - if you could e-mail me off-list and say why he is and how it's important to the story. Thanks! Oryomai From amani at charter.net Wed Dec 31 05:34:50 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:34:50 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Two Questions and a Request References: <476DB3A8.35C5D872.4B073798@aol.com> Message-ID: <01d301c3cf5f$cfde4900$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87839 Oryomai: 1. Why are the memories of Snape's that Harry sees set up the way they are? To understand what I mean, we have to see the passage: OoP, page 591-591 American Hardback Edition (yea baby!) Snape staggered; his wand flew upward; away from Harry -- and suddenly Harry's mind was teeming with memories that were not his -- a hook-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman, while a small dark-haired boy cried in a corner . . .. A greasy-haired teenager sat alone in a dark bedroom, pointing his wand at the ceiling, shooting down flies . . .. A girl was laughing as a scrawny boy tried to mount a bucking broomstick- <> My question is this: Why are Severus' memories shown from a third person POV? Why didn't Harry see from inside Severus' head? Why are his memories viewed as if he was outside his body watching himself? Any ideas? Taryn: Well, that seems to be a consistent feature of Pensieves. Dumbledore's memories were also recorded in this manner--Harry finds himself seated NEXT to Dumbledore, not viewing AS Dumbledore. I think that's why Pensieves are so useful--they allow you to take an outsider's view, even though it's your own memory, without actually living it. A way of looking at something a bit more objectively, perhaps. Wouldn't it be nice to view a memory where you were very emotional about something and, because you're looking from a calm, uninvolved perspective, be able to see things differently? ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 05:48:14 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 05:48:14 -0000 Subject: Speaking of money In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87840 > Geoff: > Comment for Catlady's benefit... A sovereign is used to describe a > (real) gold pound coin. The silver sovereign was introduced by Henry VII ("the Tydder," for Sylvia's benefit) in 1483 to establish his "sovereignty." His claim to the crown was quite shaky and he used any means possible to strengthen it, from marrying a Yorkist wife to naming his first son Arthur and arranging to have him born at "Camelot" (Winchester). He introduced the first gold sovereign in 1489. Carol, with apologies for being off topic From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Wed Dec 31 05:50:49 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:50:49 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Two Questions and a Request Message-ID: <440A0750.75D4DA31.4B073798@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87841 But this wasn't the Pensieve...this was when Harry and Severus were in Occulmency lessons. The passage before it: He [Snape] raised his wand. "One - two - three - *Legilimens*!" A hundred dementors were swooping toward Harry across the lake in the grounds....He screwed up his face in concentration....They were coming closer....He could see the dark holes beneath their hoods....yet he could also see Snape standing in front of him, his eyes fixed upon Harry's face, muttering under his breath....And somehow, Snape was growing clearer, and the dementors were growing fainter.... Harry raised his own wand. "*Protego*!" <> If it were the Pensieve, it would've made sense. But these were "normal" memories inside Severus' head. Actually, typing that passage gives me *another* question: What was Severus muttering under his breath during this time? Do you have to mutter to do the spell? Oryomai From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 06:06:14 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 06:06:14 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Mirror In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87842 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tim" wrote: > Athena ("linda_mccabe" ): > > I felt like it was there to be done to yank > > tears from the reader, but as for me - it made me livid. I thought > > it was a terrible prop that did not fulfill its purpose. That's > > because I don't think it works with the characterization of Sirius > > Black. > > > > First off, if Sirius had such a magical device he wouldn't have > > given it to Harry in the manner in which he did. He knew that the > > owl post and the Floo network was being monitored at Hogwarts. > > There was no other way that the two of them could safely > > communicate. If the two way mirror worked the way that Sirius said > > it did, then he would have given it to Harry and said, "Ten o'clock > > tonight, find a safe secluded place and call out my name. We'll > > talk everynight and I'll even see if I can't help you a bit with > > your homework." > > > > Later when Harry went through the trouble of contacting Sirius by > > Umbridge's fire, he should have said, "Harry, why didn't you just > > use the mirror I gave you? I mean, I think risks are fun and all, > > but I did give you something so you could talk with me." > > > > I just thought it was a terrible, terrible prop that I don't think > > will come to bear later on like the gift knife from Sirius did. > > > Tim speaks: > > Linda, you have hit the nails on the head. It is totally out of > character for Sirius not to ensure/encourage Harry to use the mirror. > If its only purpose is to heighten Harry's pain, then this is a > disservice to the reader and to the character of Sirius. I mean > really, never using the mirrors or finding a way to get Harry to use > his is a big gaping hole in Sirius' character. > > I usually wave off JKR's inconsistancies due to the fact she is writing > a work for children. I do not hold her to the same standard I do to > Tolkien. This does not lessen my enjoyment of the books, but I do have > to lower my expectations a bit. > > Still it is possible that there will be a later justification for > introducing the mirrors. > > Tim Harry *chose* not to use it or even open the package because he was afraid of endangering Sirius. (Sorry I don't have a page reference.) The irony is that *not* using it endangered him. The mirror reflects the earlier irony that Harry's attempt to save Sirius led to his death. (Pun unavoidable.) Carol From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 06:31:15 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 06:31:15 -0000 Subject: Quirrel and Scandinavia? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87843 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > bboy mentioned: > "a very large sparsely inhabited Russian peninsula to the north > east of Finland" as a possible location for Durmstrang and > added, "I guess my point here is that despite being in such close > proximity to Scandinavia, and generally considered in the > Scandinavian region, this Russian peninsula that I speculate is the > location of Durmstrang." > > Berit replied: > Actually, I didn't know Rowling said in an interview that Durmstrang > is located in Scandinavia. Do you have the exact quote? I'm also a > bit hesitant of including the Russian peninsula and Murmansk among > the Scandinavian countries. According to my knowledge no part of > Russia has ever been considered Scandinavian. > I still find it very odd that Durmstrang's in Norway or Sweden. Both > the name of the school (German-sounding) and the name of its > students (Slavic-sounding) are very foreign to the Scandinavian > language. > > bboy_mn again: > > > > ... the point was the Murmansk Peninsula of Russia while not > > technically a Scandinavian country; it is without a doubt in > > the Scandinavian region far more than it is in the European > > region. ...that's about as deep in the Scandinavian region as you > > can get, and equally far from what is traditionally considered > > Europe. > > Carol: > I've yet to find the interview in which JKR states that Durmstrang > is in Scandinavia. bboy_mn: I haven't been able to find the interview again either, but I have read it. I mean, I have personally read the actual interview; I'm just not able to find it right now. The best I could come across was a reference to a Glasgow book reading in which she answer the question. JKR in her answer was intentionally vague, because, afteral, these places are, like Hogwarts, unplottable and hidden by many spells and charms. So their exact location can't be known. So the statement that Durmstrang was in Scandinavia was a hint toward the general geographic area of the world, and not an exact statement of location. > Carol: > ... To me the relevant points are that it's in an area farther > north than Hogwarts, which means it must be in either Scandinavia or > European Russia, and it's in a mountainous region with lots of > lakes. That second point suggests not Sweden, Norway, or the > Murmansk Peninsula but the area of Russia just north of St. > Petersburg, which has both mountains and two very large lakes. > ...edited... > > Carol, who wanted Durmstrang to be a little closer to vampire > country but will settle for Russia bboy_mn: This is a subject I have given a great deal of thought to and done a lot of research on. Previous discussions- Tue Dec 17, 2002 1:50 am Subject: Re: Durmstrang http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/48422 Fri Sep 27, 2002 3:47 am Subject: Re: Location of Durmstrang http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/44577 These are links to my posts, but they will take you to the middle of long detailed discussion threads on this subject. In these discussion, you will see that I have made the same generalization that I have made in this thread. I refer to the Murmansk Peninsula as being in Scandinavia. I have ready acknowledged that this is not correct by techincal definition, but Murmansk is in the general area of world land mass that is considered Scandinavia, not to mention the fact that it is physically connected to Scandinavia. I have a CD-ROM with satellite photo maps of the entire world. These maps not only show topographic details, but rail lines, major & minor highways and roads including trails and very secondary unpaved roads, cities, towns, and small villages. You can see samples of these maps at these locations- Hogwarts Location- http://BlueMoonMarket.homestead.com/Files/Hogwarts/hogwarts1.htm Romanian Dragon Research Center - http://BlueMoonMarket.homestead.com/Files/Hogwarts/Romania1.htm I use these satellite photo maps in conjunction with paper maps, atlas, and information databases (like CIA World Book of Facts) to reach my conclusions. So I have considered things like population density and roads that would give Muggles access to the areas. Using geographic descriptions in the book, the location could easily be northern Finland, Sweden, or Norway. BUT and that is a BIG BUT, Durmstrang is not a Nordic or Scandinavian school. Scandinavia appears to have it's own tradition of Magic, and I would therefore assume, it has it's own sparate schools. It's clear that Durmstrang is one of the major European schools, and Russia just happens to be in Europe. That is, Western Russia is in a region that is typically considered Eastern Europe. The name of the headmaster of Durmstang appears to be a Russian, Germanic, or Slavic sounding name. The students in the school have names etc... that strongly imply an Eastern European connection. Example, Krun from Bulgaria. For the record Bulgaria borders Greece, and is therefore quite a bit farther south than the Murmansk Peninsula, but none the less would be considered Eastern Europe. The Murmansk Peninsula HAS mountians if Britian has mountains, by that I mean, it has elevations very similar to the highest peaks in Britain, so if you consider the hills in Britain to be mountains then so too does Murmansk have mountains. Murmansk has geography similar to Finland, and Finland has 60,000 lakes. Any look at a map will show that Murmansk also has several very substantial as well as many many minor lakes. Murmansk is peninsula surrounded by two seas, and has many deep inland harbors, as well as lakes+rivers that provide functional routes to the sea. It is therefore a seafaring region of the world. Population is sparse, there are very few towns and villages, the land is wild, forested, and undeveloped, and there are very few roads. In conclusion, the only location that I can find that is far enough north and yet still considered Europe, while at the same time being free from the prying eyes of muggles is the Murmansk Peninsula. But then that's just my opinion. bboy_mn From featheringstonehaugh at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 07:23:06 2003 From: featheringstonehaugh at yahoo.com (A Featheringstonehaugh) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 23:23:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Snape's Worst Memory In-Reply-To: <1072843959.21326.74277.m20@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20031231072306.80121.qmail@web60206.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87844 Meri asked:.."why Snape chose the memories he did to put into the pensive (mainly the one of his OWL and young James Potter tormenting him) and keep the ones (like the one of his father and mother yelling) that Harry could see. ......... Any thoughts? AF here: I think he removed the memories that showed James as he really was in order to prevent Harry from learning what his hero Dad was really like. And perhaps he also didn't care if Harry saw him (Snape) as a lonely, scared boy; a boy similar to Harry himself at times. I live in hope that Snape has been given a very bad rap and is ultimately redeemed. AF --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Get your photo on the big screen in Times Square [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 07:29:45 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 07:29:45 -0000 Subject: Let's hear it for good old Snapey! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87845 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" > wrote: > > And by the way, Snape did exactly what he was supposed to do > vis-?-vis the Occlumency lessons. From #80164 Alla wrote: Let's pretend for a second that I am very slow, shall we? Could you > clarify for me what did your statement "Snape did exacly what he was supposed to during Occlumency lessons" meant? Talisman, declining to pretend, replies: It means exactly what it says. If you are looking for the detailed aguments, please note that I previously provided references to many of my extant posts on this subject, which include the working out of DD's plans and Snape's role as his Aide-de-Camp. I've provided references to posts more directly relevent to your perceived issues, below. Beyond this, I'm not inclined to go on reiterating old posts. Alla: > Are you saying that the real, hidden purpose of the Oclumency lessons was to open Harry's mind to Voldy ? Talisman: That would be correct, as the canonical evidence cited in my earlier post and references demonstrate. This is exactly the effect the lessons had. Rowling not only allows us to see this for ourselves, but underscores the point by having Harry, Hagrid, Ron and Hermione acknowledge it in turn, and then finally validates it when DD explains why he chose not to give Harry the lessons, himself. > Alla: > Umm, I advise you to reread Pip's post, whom I can doubt you can call a Snape's hater and tell me whether you really believe that Snape controlled his emotions in the Pensive scene. Talisman: I think you need to improve your civility if you are addressing me directly. I've read Pip's post and I simply don't agree. I find that it is based on too narrow a reading of the scene, combined with Pip's subjective interpretations of Snape's feelings and motivations. It does not address canon as to the effects of the Occlumency lessons, as experienced by Harry, observed by his friends, or admitted by DD. Moreover, Pip's post does not comport with my analysis of five books worth of evidence that DD is in control of his "plan" and that Snape is doing exactly what DD wants him to do. It specifically does not deal with the evidence in OoP that Occlumency was used to facilitate the confrontation with Voldemort or that, as a superb Occlumens, Snape is a wizard exceptionally skilled at controlling his emotions. Alla: > I am not denying that Snape did some many good things for Harry, but if you can call "Harry being almost killed while possessed by Voldy and being denied the only father figure he ever knew thanks for Snape stopping the lessons" world of good, then you are blinded by your unconditional love for this character and it is your right. > But kindly, very kindly I ask you - spare me this "emotional baggage" crap. Talisman: You know Alla, I didn't direct the observation (that some poster's negative emotions are getting in the way of their analysis) at anyone in particular. Unfortunately, I do find that your responsive post is not only rude, but that it is based on an abundance of negative emotion rather than a literary explication that in any way addresses the canon I have offered. Additionally, I think it is clear textual error to say that Harry's possession and Sirius's death are Snape's fault. This is only Harry's childish view. It serves his interest to assuage his own self-loathing by projecting it on someone he can be comfortable hating. Harry hates Snape, not only to relieve his feelings of responsibility for Sirius's death, but to vent the pain of his disappointment in James, on whose image a great deal of Harry's fragile self-esteem has become dependent. But, Snape does not deserve this condemnation. Even without exploring the bigger picture, you can find concrete canon for the facts that 1) DD knew the effect Occlumency lessons would have on Harry; 2) DD knew the Occlumency lessons weren't continuing; 3) DD knew Voldemort would try to lure Harry to the prophecy orb; 4) DD knew Sirius would go to Harry's rescue, 5) DD anticipated that Voldemort would possess Harry , and 6) DD hoped-- and then knew--that Harry`s heightened feelings of love for his lost godfather would repel Voldemort and allow DD to resume contact with Harry. I believe my post # 80164 contains canonically based arguments for these positions, which fit into a larger paradigm, some of which is laid out in the early Guilty!Dumbledore posts at ## 66983, 6740, etc., and Tactics & Prescience at #75836, in which I posit that DD was instrumental in Sirius`s death. I must say that I am now leaning toward an idea that demetra1225 sent me, to the effect that Sirius acceded to this plan. You are free to believe anything you wish about the plots and characters in the HP series, but if you decide to address my analysis again, please bring some courtesy and canon. Talisman, Who always appreciates a sense of humor, too. From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Dec 31 10:41:27 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 10:41:27 -0000 Subject: Quirrel's Name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87846 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > "justcarol67" wrote: > > Odd, since Dumbledore addresses all of his employees and former > > students by their given names. Maybe he never speaks directly to > > Quirrel in Harry's hearing? > > Ok, I'm totally confused at this--what are you talking about? What hearing? > Arya Geoff: Sorry, I hope I'm not being rude but is this a problem with English to a person who is not a native English speaker? For soemthing to happen "in somebody's hearing" means that the person is actually there to hear what is said. As opposed to being told by somebody else which is hearing via "a third person". From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Wed Dec 31 11:15:39 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 06:15:39 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Worst Memory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87847 In a message dated 12/30/2003 8:14:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, meriaugust at yahoo.com writes: > I am just reading the chapter in OotP when Harry looks into Snape's > pensive, and I have just been wondering why Snape chose the memories > he did to put into the pensive (mainly the one of his OWL and young > James Potter tormenting him) and keep the ones (like the one of his > father and mother yelling) that Harry could see. I would have > thought that the memories of his parents fighting and the bucking > broomstick and the lonely room would have been equally as > embarassing as the OWL day, while the OWL memory has the added bonus > of showing Harry exactly how stuck up and arrogant his dad and > godfather really were. Any thoughts? > Meri Cassie: I have a few thoughts on this. Have you ever had such a terrible experience that you pushed it to the back of your mind and did everything to forget it happened? With these embarrassing memories it is possible he either accidently or purposefully forgot them. I think a person can only put memories into the penseive that they remember/can call upon to take out. Also, I don't think Snape exactly expected Harry to break into his memories or mess with his penseive (though by using the pensieve it is obvious he was afraid something might happen). ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From clio44a at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 11:32:30 2003 From: clio44a at yahoo.com (clio44a) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 11:32:30 -0000 Subject: Who is to blame (was: Whoa Nelly! Lots of Snape ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87848 Alla, I think we are going in circles here. I don't want to open this whole argument of 'who is guilty and who is not' again. Others can do that much more eloquently than I am. It is just a very minor point I try to address: Did or did not Albus give his consent for Snape to stop the occlumency lessons. Maybe I don't really get this across. English is not my native language. Sorry. In a nutshell I'm trying to say this. It has puzzled me from first read on: Why can Snape end the lessons without anyone caring? Remus and Sirius seem to care (OooP, p592). So, conclusion: They must have told Ddore, McGonagall, or the Order or whoever. BUT: Nothing happens, Harry doesn't get lessons or is even asked about the events in Snape's office. Conclusion 2: Ddore was ok with the end of the Occlumency lessons. Maybe he was really frustrated with Snape. Maybe he realized that Snape and Harry would never work together. We don't know that. Regarding Remus and Sirius being the ones to blame as you seem to have misread my last post, let me rephrase it: If those two didn't move heaven and hell to let the lessons continue (which I think they must have done, see my last post), they were bad guardians for Harry. I'm actually with you in your opinion that much of the blame lies on Ddore. he says so himself in the final all-explaining conversation with Harry. I just disagree, that Snape ended the lessons without Ddore's knowledge or consent. How much Harry is to blame for the end and the failing of the lessons is a debate I don't want to jump in right now, but I think p731ff (OooP, Brit. ed.) are quite well written in terms of Harry feeling guilt and trying to get rid of it. OooP, p 734: Harry disregarded this; he felt a savage pleasure in blaming Sape, it seemed to be easing his own sense of dreadful guilt, and he wanted to hear Dumbledore agree with him. Maybe some among us feel the same savage pleasure? That's alright, because when everyone agrees, there are no debates, which we all enjoy so much, right? :) Clio, who whishes you all lots of fun at whatever New Years Eve party you will be at tonight, wherever you live. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Dec 31 12:51:43 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 12:51:43 -0000 Subject: Let's hear it for good old Snapey! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87849 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "uilnslcoap" wrote: > > Ahem...I sort of like Snape. I admit that I more than sort of like > Harry by comparison, but Harry aside, doesn't Snape's treatment of > Neville seem over the line? His belittling of him only confirms > Neville's opinion (up to book five) of himself as incompetent. Kneasy: Well, objectively Neville has been incompetent hasn't he? Why pretend otherwise? Admittedly he showed signs of improvement in OoP, but for the four previous books he was about as much use as a chocolate fire-guard. He was no damn good at anything except stuffing plants in pots. The amazing thing is that he wasn't relegated to the back of every class to get on with some raffia-work. It's my contention that Snape and DD are working hand-in-glove; not just in the Order but at Hogwarts too. Remember that DD allowed that there were two possible candidates for Voldys!Bane - Harry and Neville. Even though Harry is hot favourite for the job, the MoM still has doubts. So both get similar treatment from Sevvy - push 'em hard, accept no excuses, make sure they are up for whatever nasty events ensue. Devin: > While Snape's methods may work for most, he's a failure at his > profession (though admittedly it's probably not his calling) where > some students are concerned. > By the way, I don't think a teacher needs to be cruel to prepare a > student for adult life. They're going to find out the world is a > mean place no matter what and many of their peers are going to > confirm the presence of "disappoint, sarcasm, or criticism" in the > world. > Kneasy: I think Sevvy is a great teacher; not a model emulated by the modern teaching profession, true, but very effective. Personal experiences can be suspect and atypical, but I had at least 3 of that stripe imposing their dictats on me at my Grammar School in the 50s. Scared stiff, I was most of the time, but in retrospect they were the most effective of my school career. They didn't care if they were liked or not, what mattered was to make a pupil reach his maximum potential. Praise was hard to come by, scorn was frequent, but my word, they achieved some remarkable results with some apparently mediocre students. Cruelty, now. That's a subjective judgement. Hard, yes, but not cruel IMO. If he wanted to be cruel, he'd have made references in class to Frank and Alice and suggested that Neville took after them. That's cruel. Devin: > And it's not as though Harry hasn't proved himself > good at heart and well-intentioned and capable of making those > intentions into powerful actions aside from those flaws. And Snape > didn't know these things about Harry when he first walked in the door > to his classroom and he STILL treated him like so much rubbish. That > speaks to an irrational feeling of dislike, if not more. If Harry > had not been his father's son, he would probably have been an average > student that never would have attracted Snape's ire or approval. > Harry would have thought Snape mean and greasy, but he would not have > held him in contempt the way he does now. > Kneasy: Good at heart doesn't hack it. Being good at heart does not make a skillfull or discriminating wizard. "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." Good intentions got Sirius killed. Of course Snape treated him like rubbish from the start. What else could he do, good Voldy supporter that he is supposed to be? Snape is playing a part and Harry is an unwitting member of the cast. But whereas on Harry's side the animosity is personal, deep and real, on Snape's side it's not. Despite all his sound and fury, how many times has Snape handed out a *personal* punishment to Harry? In the five years of the books he could have made Umbridge look like a cooing dove. But he hasn't. It's all for effect only, not genuine animus. Snape is all too often examined in relation to Harry *only*. But that's not what Snape is about. Snape has more important things than Harry on his mind, crossing Voldy and surviving probably being foremost. Snape wants Voldy brought down, probably for personal reasons. To do this he puts himself in the firing line. Harry is incidental to his main activities in doing a job that probably no-one else can do. For years he has maintained his contacts with the DEs, appearing supportive. These are the type that as a good Slytherin would be his natural friends and allies, yet he is betraying them while presenting a front they can believe. He's got more than Harry's feelings to worry about. In fact, upsetting Harry probably helps. But I can't accept that he hates Harry; all too often he's been there to pull Harry's chestnuts out of the fire, not expecting thanks, understanding or appreciation and not throwing it back into Harry's teeth and calling him an ungrateful wretch - which would be justified, the way Harry behaves. No, he's intelligent and mature enough to know the difference between James and Harry. Devin: > Again, I (sort of) like Snape, I wish he and Harry would have it out > and let us see the interesting man sitting under all that prejudice. > I think if one of them would just SAY SOMETHING civil to the other > one, a whole lot might be cleared up. Specifically, I'd like Harry > to ask for Snape's forgiveness on the Pensieve issue and for > something to grow from there, but we'll see. > Kneasy: I fear the plot is set for Harry to continue mis-understand Snape until it's too late to make amends, 'cos I don't think Sevvy will be around at the end of the series. Harry will regret missed opportunities and Snape won't give a damn, no matter where he ends up. Devin: > Oh, the fault I find with Harry for looking in that Pensieve. Oh, > the lost progress in the Snape-Harry relations. It seemed to me > Harry had earned a modicum of Snape's respect and a smidgeon of his > understanding (which says a lot for Snape because Harry didn't really > seem to reciprocate). > Kneasy: Tut. None of this sloppy, wistful, wishful thinking, please. Much more fun the way it is and it might get better yet. I hum with satisfaction at the progress of Harry towards full Slytherin mode. He seems to be becoming a really nasty piece of work, for which I'm grateful. Pretty soon he could do something really horrible. I keep remembering my theory that although Harry might be the one to bring down Voldemort, the Prophecy did not specify or predict that he be 'good', just his equal. Oh, yes please! Devin: > Hermione > clears up Harry's potion of which his one vial was broken and Snape > uses his chance to award him no marks. That's also the conduct of > someone with spite on the brain. Even if it were the proper thing to > do as a teacher (I'm pretty sure someone with Snape's talent could > rescue some of the concoction on the floor), Snape takes obvious > pleasure in giving him the grade and that is wrong no matter what. > Kneasy: Reality rules. In real life no product from a practical exam would result in no marks too. So why aren't you blaming Hermione for interferring instead of blaming Snape? Snape didn't cock it up, it was a combination of Harry and Hermione. Devin: > Do you really think Harry doesn't blame himself for Sirius's death > (this is not meant to sound astounded, merely interrogative)? I can > see how you might, but I think Harry has a hero complex and is bound > to consider Sirius his fault. Dumbledore thinks he does this as > well. I'm not saying he doesn't blame Snape also, though. Harry's > got too much invested in his own hatred there to not do that. > Kneasy: Harry will do what most us would do in similar circumstances. He'll rationalise - "Yes, I shouldn't have done that, BUT..." Someone else will always be the main culprit because they should have realised what the situation was and didn't prevent it from going pear-shaped *after* Harry had made his mistakes. Devin > PS My apologies for using so many conjunctions at the beginning of > sentences. The son-of-two-English-teachers in me recognizes it as > wrong, but it does keep sentences shorter and therefore readable and > just feels right sometimes. Kneasy: I concur. Wordflow is more appreciated than strict grammar. Otherwise you can end up with the example given by Churchill - "Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put." From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 07:40:49 2003 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 07:40:49 -0000 Subject: Let's hear it for good old Snapey! In-Reply-To: <005201c3cf56$61ef0fa0$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87850 Anne- Ihe whole situation of Sirius's death started because, as is habit, Harry ignored the instructions given to him by Dumbledore and forged on with his own ideas anyway--in this case, the idea that what he 'saw' was real, that Snape did NOT want to do anything about it, and therefore, he and the other kids of the club were the only ones who could save Sirius. The point here is that you cannot teach someone who does not want to learn no matter thier reasons for not wanting to learn), just as you cannot change a person's opinion if they are dead set in thier beliefs and will see no other way. The outrage is that blame is thrown for what happened...and yet none of the ones who did exactly what they were told NOT to do takes responsibility. vmonte- I agree that Harry ignores intructions and often relies on instinct intstead of logic in times of trouble. Harry is neither logical, clever, nor a strategist. He gets out of tight spots because he has natural talent, thinks quickly on his feet, has loyal friends who have extra ability in what he lacks. Hermione and Ron complete "the dream team." But Harry really needs to wake up and start thinking critically on his own. He should never have taken what he saw (regarding Sirius' safety) at face value. He was repeatedly warned that Voldemort would take advantage of him now that he had open access to Harry's thoughts. If we, the readers are to take Snape's, Dumbledore's, Lupin's, Sirius', warnings in mind--we too should not take what we see at face value. Things may not be what they appear! 1. I wonder why Snape removed his thoughts in front of Harry? 2. If the pensieve belonged to Dumbledore where some of his memories also in the pensieve? 3. Have other people at the school placed their memories in this pensieve? 4. How do we know that these memories are Snapes? Is it just because Harry repeated several times that they were. (Remember Harry always takes things at face value.) 5. Can pensieve memories be altered in order to deceive? 6. Is there something else in the memory, besides the obvious, that Snape would fear that Harry might have seen? 7. If Snape borrowed the pensieve from Dumbledore did Dumbledore warn Snape that Harry might take a peek, or was Snape (or Dumbledore) counting on Harry peeking? 8. Would there be a reason that Snape would want to end occulmency lessons. Just some thoughts. From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Wed Dec 31 13:32:26 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 13:32:26 -0000 Subject: Quirrel's Name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87851 "justcarol67" wrote: Odd, since Dumbledore addresses all of his employees and former students by their given names. Maybe he never speaks directly to Quirrel in Harry's hearing? Arya wrote: Ok, I'm totally confused at this--what are you talking about? What hearing? Geoff wrote: Sorry, I hope I'm not being rude but is this a problem with English to a person who is not a native English speaker? For soemthing to happen "in somebody's hearing" means that the person is actually there to hear what is said. As opposed to being told by somebody else which is hearing via "a third person". Arya Again: Quigonginger cleared it up for me. It was just a brain fart and yes I speak English as my language. I took "Harry's hearing" to mean "Harry's Court Hearing" or such, like the Hearing that occurs in Courtroom Ten in OotP. I was mystfyied as to why Quirrel would be spoken to in this Hearing or in some other Hearing that Harry had. Never mind...obviously, I have had too much egg nog (which is kind of like Butterbeer in my mind...) From helenhorsley at hotmail.com Wed Dec 31 12:03:18 2003 From: helenhorsley at hotmail.com (dorapye) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 12:03:18 -0000 Subject: Two Questions and a Request In-Reply-To: <476DB3A8.35C5D872.4B073798@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87852 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: > While re-reading OoP, I came up with two questions (only one of which involves Snape!) and one request. > > 1. Why are the memories of Snape's that Harry sees set up the way they are? To understand what I mean, we have to see the passage: > OoP, page 591-591 American Hardback Edition (yea baby!) > Snape staggered; his wand flew upward; away from Harry -- and suddenly Harry's mind was teeming with memories that were not his -- a hook-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman, while a small dark-haired boy cried in a corner . . .. A greasy-haired teenager sat alone in a dark bedroom, pointing his wand at the ceiling, shooting down flies . . .. A girl was laughing as a scrawny boy tried to mount a bucking broomstick- > <> > > My question is this: Why are Severus' memories shown from a third person POV? Why didn't Harry see from inside Severus' head? Why are his memories viewed as if he was outside his body watching himself? Any ideas? Now dorapye: Please excuse me if this is not expressed particularly clearly,as I am remembering something I have heard and read about a long, long way back, but (?)neuropsychologists have it pretty much concrete that *all* our memories are stored not as if we were looking at them through our eyes, but rather as if we were watching a film with ourselves as the central star. It is all wrapped up in our own view of *self*, so this may not be true for very young children, before they develop a sense of themselves in the world around them (probably very difficult for psychologists to find out one way or the other!), but any further detailed explanation than this I will need to leave to a genuine psychologist, as I don't want to reveal huge chasms of ignorance!(or confuse anyone, either...) Pychologists have used this to explain "out of body experiences" when unconcious patients have apparently "floated out of their body and looked down at themselves from the ceiling" during lifesaving operations. Because the patient was properly anaesthetised during the operation, and likely close to death, not registering any level of consciousness that could be detected, people have claimed these 'memories' show that the person's spirit must have left the body in order for the person to 'remember' the scene from a ceiling point of view. However, if all memories are etched onto our minds as if we are spectators to the events involving ourselves, then it can be deduced that the OBE is not evidence of a spirit leaving the body, but that the patient's mind must have been conscious on some, as yet not understood, level and that the patient is recalling a deep, deep, memory of the operation, but, because it is a memory, they appear to be watching from outside their body. Okay, not convinced? Well, then, I challenge you to think about a memorable event in your life (one for which there are no photographs and therefore no memory contamination) and replay the action before your eyes - do you see it as if you are looking through the eyes of your past self, or are you watching like a bystander as your past self plays its part in the memory? It is knowing this that has meant that I have never had any problems with the pensieve scenes, though I believe they are an objective recollection of the events, as played out - rather perhaps as an OBE! Does this make any useful sense to anyone? dorapye From belijako at online.no Wed Dec 31 13:48:48 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 13:48:48 -0000 Subject: Pensieve Memories (Was: Re: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? . . . ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87853 Dhyana wrote: > I'm not sure that canon does suggest that you may be able to hear > everthing > in the surrounding environment or that MWPP were outside Snape's > range of > sight and hearing. IMO, MWPP were within Snape's range of hearing > and that > if Snape hadn't heard them, Harry wouldn't have been able to either. Berit replies: But you can't know that for sure, can you, at least not based on canon? After all; Harry was able to move around and SEE things/details Snape possibly couldn't have seen. For instance; in the exam-scene, Harry moved over to the front of James's desk and looked down at his face; Harry also watched Sirius, Lupin and Peter. All through this Snape seems to be busy writing feverishly with his nose only an inch from the parchment. Clearly Snape didn't move around in the classroom free to look James in the face or watch how he scribbled LE on a scrap of parchment like Harry did (Snape was seated several rows behind James)... If Harry could see things Snape didn't see, then it follows logically that he also could hear things Snape didn't hear. I believe that's the whole point of putting one's thoughts in a pensieve. I can't prove it canon-wise, but the way the scene is described it's a logical deduction. Berit From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 15:00:41 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 15:00:41 -0000 Subject: Who Gets Black House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87854 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Carol: > We seem to be forgetting that Sirius inherited *another* house from > his uncle, whose name I can't find in the Lexicon but it's something > annoyingly similar to Neville's Uncle Algie. Anyway, I'm sure *that's* > the house Sirius was referring to when he said that he had a house of > his own that he and Harry could live in and the one he would bequeath > to Harry in a will (with no worries about entails imposed by Mrs. > Black, who would have no say in the matter). > > > Carol Actually, just having re-read the book...his Uncle Alphard just left him some money which he used to get a place of his own when he was 17...and doesn' specify if it's a house or not...most likely given his age and nature I would guess an appartment (pg 111 American Ed.) No, I think the house the Sirius refers to is good old no. 12 Grimmauld. I think you have to keep in mind that it isn't as awful as when are first introduced to it in the book...after all a good part of the first part of the book is about them detoxifying it. In fact it seems by Christmas it was quite liveable. Serena From meriaugust at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 16:12:05 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 16:12:05 -0000 Subject: Snape's Worst Memory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87855 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Blair" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" > wrote: > > I am just reading the chapter in OotP when Harry looks into Snape's > > pensive, and I have just been wondering why Snape chose the > memories > > he did to put into the pensive (mainly the one of his OWL and young > > James Potter tormenting him) and keep the ones (like the one of his > > father and mother yelling) that Harry could see. I would have > > thought that the memories of his parents fighting and the bucking > > broomstick and the lonely room would have been equally as > > embarassing as the OWL day, while the OWL memory has the added > bonus > > of showing Harry exactly how stuck up and arrogant his dad and > > godfather really were. Any thoughts? > > Meri > > I thought that it was Severus' way of sort of making common ground > between the two of them -- crappy childhoods. The only argument I > can think of is that Severus didn't think Harry would be able to see > them -- but then why would he have gotten rid of those memories in > the first place? > > Oryomai > --Is there a special ward in St. Mungo's for those who maniacally > defend Severus? Also, Dumbledore would have informed Snape that Harry knows what a Pensive is, and that his curiosity would certainly lead him to look in it if given th opportunity. All I can think is that Snape maybe wanted Harry to see that memory, no matter what his reaction after the fact. Meri who isn't sure what Snape's deal is, yet, but is sure that she dislikes him for his treatment of Neville From sophierom at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 16:49:48 2003 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 16:49:48 -0000 Subject: Snape's Worst Memory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87856 Meri: > > > I am just reading the chapter in OotP when Harry looks into Snape's pensive, and I have just been wondering why Snape chose the memories he did to put into the pensive (mainly the one of his OWL and young James Potter tormenting him) and keep the ones (like the one of his father and mother yelling) that Harry could see.> Oryomai: > > I thought that it was Severus' way of sort of making common ground between the two of them -- crappy childhoods. The only argument I can think of is that Severus didn't think Harry would be able to see them -- but then why would he have gotten rid of those memories in the first place? Meri: > Also, Dumbledore would have informed Snape that Harry knows what a > Pensive is, and that his curiosity would certainly lead him to look in it if given th opportunity. All I can think is that Snape maybe wanted Harry to see that memory, no matter what his reaction after the fact. Sophierom: I'm not sure that Snape wanted Harry to see the memory of the OWL day. If Snape did want this, then his blowing up at Harry at the end of the chapter was all an act, an excuse to stop the lessons. This is certainly plausible, and it might be evidence to support Snape's continuing alliance with the DEs, but I'd like to think that this isn't the case. Instead, what if Dumbledore orchestrated the whole thing? What if Dumbledore told Snape to use his Pensive, but didn't tell him about Harry's previous knowledge of the pensive?("Severus, why don't you use my Pensive so that you can maintain your privacy?") Snape immediately thinks of his interactions with MWPP. Perhaps his horrible childhood memories are so deeply buried that he doesn't consciously think about removing them from his head. Then, what if Snape left the Pensive on his desk without thinking about it, figuring that Harry was too inexperienced to know what it was, anyway. But Dumbledore knew that if Harry saw the Pensive, he'd look into it when he got the chance, just as he did before in Dumbledore's own office. In this slightly implausible scenario, it would be Dumbledore, not Snape, who wanted Harry to experience the memory. DD wanted Harry to understand why it was that Snape hated Harry so much. Perhaps Dumbledore also wanted Harry to realize that no one (not even a dead father who was once a great Quidditch player, Head Boy, and all- around hero) is perfect. To be sure, this would be a very roundabout way of trying to teach Harry some lessons. But given Dumbledore's teaching methods, it doesn't seem too out of character. Or does it? What do you think? Best, Sophierom From tcyhunt at earthlink.net Wed Dec 31 17:08:53 2003 From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (Tracy Hunt) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 17:08:53 -0000 Subject: Correcting Harry was: Re: Quirrel's Name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87857 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > "justcarol67" wrote: > > Odd, since Dumbledore addresses all of his employees and former > > students by their given names. Maybe he never speaks directly to > > Quirrel in Harry's hearing? > > Ok, I'm totally confused at this--what are you talking about? What hearing? > Arya now Tcy: This thread got me thinking about something I just re-read in PS/SS. Dumbledore is continually correcting Harry calling our dear Severus "Snape" rather than "Professor Snape." It caught my attention, because Dumbledore never corrects Harry when he refers to Quirrel as "Quirrel". Is it just a slip on Dumbledore's part - or is there a reason for it? Tcy From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Dec 31 17:39:15 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 17:39:15 -0000 Subject: Snape's Worst Memory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87858 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > I am just reading the chapter in OotP when Harry looks into Snape's > pensive, and I have just been wondering why Snape chose the memories > he did to put into the pensive (mainly the one of his OWL and young > James Potter tormenting him) and keep the ones (like the one of his > father and mother yelling) that Harry could see. I would have > thought that the memories of his parents fighting and the bucking > broomstick and the lonely room would have been equally as > embarassing as the OWL day, while the OWL memory has the added bonus > of showing Harry exactly how stuck up and arrogant his dad and > godfather really were. Any thoughts? > Meri Just to be totally contrary, I'll point out that there is no ojective evidence as to which, if any, of the three memories Harry sees are of Snape. Quite probably the bored teenager in his bedroom is since he is described as having greasy hair. As to the other two, the bucking broomstick with knobbly knees could be James suffering from a Sevvy hex. Harry's antecedents in the Mirror had knobbly knees and James was supposed to be the Quidditch superstar. Snape would probably think a hex would be embarassing to James. We have no knowledge of Snape's expertise on a broomstick. The arguing adults - again I've argued that Snape is not the child but the adult. This was his family and they are the reason that he is anti-Voldy. It makes for believable motivation. Kneasy From jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk Wed Dec 31 15:45:43 2003 From: jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk (jotwo2003) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 15:45:43 -0000 Subject: Heraldry and Harry Potter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87859 I saw an interesting discussion once that JKR sometimes picks names for characters because the heraldry fits. The specific example being quoted was the Evans coat of arms, which is a golden lion on a blue background. The crest is a stag. This obviously fits Lily, as she was a Gryffindor and married James, who was a stag animagus. However, the crest for Snape is a buck's head. Buck is a synonym for a male deer. So heraldry connects Lily with Snape too. Another example mentioned was the heraldry for Pettigrew. This coat of arms has a red background with a crescent between three gold stars. Obviously these are Gryffindor colours, and it's widely believed, although it's unlikely to be ever stated in canon, that Peter was a Gryffindor. I looked into the subject further and even discovered that a coat of arms exists for the name Dumbledore. This is a red shield with an ermine bend between two gold lions. Again, this fits, as Dumbledore is a Gryffindor. For the name Brown the crest is a lion holding in its paw a gold fleur de lis. Finnigan is a red shield, with two lions, although these are silver. For Black the crest is a half lion. All these seem familiar symbols in HP. However, I would not suggest that heraldry is significant for every character. The real motto of the Black family is in Latin and translates as the cross, not the light. In OOP Sirius' family motto was Toujours Pur, French for always pure. Similary the colour red is associated with Lestrange, red and gold with Wilkes and lions with Avery, Lestrange and Rosier, so you can't read too much into the heraldic symbolism. Nevertheless I think JKR was aware of heraldry in naming some of the important characters and it's not mere coincidence. JoTwo From jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk Wed Dec 31 15:48:10 2003 From: jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk (jotwo2003) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 15:48:10 -0000 Subject: The eavesdropper: round up the usual suspects Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87860 Although I bet we won't find out until book 7, I thought it might be useful to list all the characters who may be the eavesdropper who overheard the prophecy, and why. Severus Snape - he seems to be the favourite. He was once a Death Eater so he would pass any information to Voldemort. He's widely believed to be the spy who tipped Dumbledore off about Voldemort being after the Potters, presumably due to his life debt. If he's the eavesdropper, then it will make the reader suspicious about him. It will also feed Harry's hatred of him, as he'd blame Snape for his parents' deaths. Mundungus Fletcher - banned from the Hogs Head about 20 years ago. However, the eavesdropper heard the prophecy 15 years ago. Therefore for him to be the eavesdropper we have to assume either that 20 years is a rounded up figure, or Dung tried to get into the pub after he was banned, and was spotted and thrown out. He wasn't in the original Order of the Phoenix as he was not in the photo. We're told that: "he's also very loyal to Dumbledore, who helped him out of a tight spot once". Is this a hint that he was once involved with the Death Eaters? On the other hand, he's a petty criminal, and doesn't seem the Death Eater type. He's a humourous character, liked by Harry, and probably most readers, so if JKR wanted the eavesdropper's identity to be a shock, Mundungus would fit the bill. Ludo Bagman - he passed secrets to Voldemort, but claimed he that he thought he was collecting information for the good side. He passed the information to Rookwood. Could this have included the prophecy? Bagman was a dodgy character and we've seen him in a pub before, although this was The Three Broomsticks. On the other hand Dumbledore says that the eavesdropper could not inform his master about the second half of the prophecy, which suggests that Voldemort was told directly, rather than indirectly, which means the eavesdropper has to be a Death Eater, whereas IMHO Bagman was just a dim sports hero. Crabbe Sr - in the graveyard, Voldemort tells him to do better this time. However this could refer to general incompetence rather than failing to hear all of the prophecy. Nott - Voldemort says the same applied to him, but again, it might not refer to a specific mistake on Nott's part. Avery - he has already been seen failing to give Voldemort the correct information about retrieving the prophecy, so he may be generally useless. However, his function as a character seems to be being tortured, simply to show how badly Voldemort treats his followers. The unknown Death Eater - a character who has not been introduced as of OOP. Any other suspects people want to add? JoTwo From brucebanner at runbox.com Wed Dec 31 16:24:10 2003 From: brucebanner at runbox.com (brucebanner at runbox.com) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 16:24:10 GMT Subject: Memory (was Two Questions and a Request) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87861 Dorapyan wrote: ================== Please excuse me if this is not expressed particularly clearly,as I am remembering something I have heard and read about a long, long way back, but (?)neuropsychologists have it pretty much concrete that *all* our memories are stored not as if we were looking at them through our eyes, but rather as if we were watching a film with ourselves as the central star. =================== That was a great post, so thank you very much. It makes me wonder what Harry would see if he put one of his own memories in a Pensieve and then fell into the Pensieve. So far, we have only seen Harry experience the memories of others (Snape and Dumbledore). Naturally, he sees these memories through his own eyes. But his dreams are different, aren't they? In GoF, Harry sees himself flying around on a broom. And when he is confronted with a dementor, he seems to see things through his own eyes. I wonder what that all means? --BB From lovefromhermione at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 16:50:44 2003 From: lovefromhermione at yahoo.com (lovefromhermione at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 08:50:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: OOP:Favorite Lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031231165044.38715.qmail@web40201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87862 All right, I'm a lot late, but I liked this one: "The dementors have left Azkaban," said Malfoy quietly. "Dad and the others'll be out in no time. . ." "Yeah, I expect they will," said Harry. "Still, at least everyone knows what scumbags they are now -" (US p. 851) It seems Harry has really internalized Hagrid's attitude that whatever is coming will come, and Harry won't take it or anything else lying down. From jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk Wed Dec 31 15:43:07 2003 From: jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk (jotwo2003) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 15:43:07 -0000 Subject: Filch: what's in a name? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87863 Filch verb. to pilfer, to steal (something of small value). That's my dictionary's definition. If names have hidden meanings then what implications does this have for Argus, the caretaker? Does anyone have any ideas about what he could steal? What role will he play in books 6 and 7? Discuss. JoTwo From houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Wed Dec 31 18:30:57 2003 From: houseofbohacek at earthlink.net (Gail Bohacek) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 13:30:57 -0500 Subject: (FILK) Time To Duel Message-ID: <410-2200312331183057624@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 87864 Time To Duel (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of "Suppertime" from the musical "Little Shop of Horrors") This is the last song that I needed to filk from this musical. With it, "Tournament of Horrors" is now completed. I hope everybody out there has a happy and safe new year celebration. Dedicated to Robin Grace. Midi is here: http://addagirl.com/littleshop.htm (Scene: The Graveyard. Lord Voldemort, having just been restored to power, looms over Harry, who is tied to a gravestone. Wormtail, with his new silver hand, stands nearby) (Cue music for, "Time To Duel") Voldemort: Thirteen long years ago By you I was stripped of My body and my pow'rs Thwarted by mother's love Your mother was a fool 'Cause now it's time to duel Your parents died in vain They only bought you time No one's here to save you You've just been lucky so I'm Going to prove now who'll Win when it's time to duel Stand up, stand up Let there be no more doubting! Stand up, stand up I'm the strongest one here! Stand up, stand up You will be given your chance! Stand up, stand up Your end has now drawn nigh By my hands, tonight you will die (Voldemort motions to Wormtail who then unties Harry and gives him back his wand. From out of the shadows, the Death Eater Ensemble emerges, forming a semi-circle around Voldemort and Harry) Death Eater Ensemble (Voldemort, speaking): Stand up, stand up (The niceties must be observed) Stand up, stand up (I said, *bow*!) Stand up, stand up (Now face me like a man...the way your father died) It's time to duel Ahhhhhhhh Time to duel Time to duel -Gail B. houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Why Wait? Move to EarthLink. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amani at charter.net Wed Dec 31 18:32:23 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 13:32:23 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Memory (was Two Questions and a Request) References: Message-ID: <004701c3cfcc$6f74a7e0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87865 Dorapyan wrote: Please excuse me if this is not expressed particularly clearly,as I am remembering something I have heard and read about a long, long way back, but (?)neuropsychologists have it pretty much concrete that *all* our memories are stored not as if we were looking at them through our eyes, but rather as if we were watching a film with ourselves as the central star. BB replied: It makes me wonder what Harry would see if he put one of his own memories in a Pensieve and then fell into the Pensieve. So far, we have only seen Harry experience the memories of others (Snape and Dumbledore). Naturally, he sees these memories through his own eyes. Taryn: But we have also seen Dumbledore and Snape enter into the Pensieve memories that Harry's watching, and they have both appeared as their own, current persona, separate of the memory of themselves. I think it would be logical to conclude Harry would appear as himself and watch his past memory self in a Pensieve memory of his own. ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amani at charter.net Wed Dec 31 18:28:07 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 13:28:07 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Correcting Harry was: Re: Quirrel's Name References: Message-ID: <003701c3cfcb$d748f7a0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87866 now Tcy: This thread got me thinking about something I just re-read in PS/SS. Dumbledore is continually correcting Harry calling our dear Severus "Snape" rather than "Professor Snape." It caught my attention, because Dumbledore never corrects Harry when he refers to Quirrel as "Quirrel". Is it just a slip on Dumbledore's part - or is there a reason for it? Taryn: It's only in that last scene where Harry talks about what happened with DD, right? Because I always noted that, but assumed that Quirrel had lost his chance of being addressed in a respectful manner cause...well, he was a baddie. Snape's a professor and should be addressed as such. Quirrel turned out to be the bad guy, so they don't have to refer to him in such a respectful manner anymore. ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 18:35:08 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 18:35:08 -0000 Subject: Snape's Worst Memory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87867 --- meri pondered: > I am just reading the chapter in OotP when Harry looks into Snape's > pensive, and I have just been wondering why Snape chose the memories > he did to put into the pensive Constance (me) I think it is obvious. The reason that memory is so much worse than all the others is what happened next. We are extracted before we get to find out if James really pulled down Snape's underwear. I think there can be no doubt that he did. This would be enough humiliation to carry through to the next generation - being pants'd in front of the whole school body, especially in front of Lily, who I think Severus was definitely sweet on. I think the more interesting question would be what are the other two memories that Snape wanted to protect from Harry? I think one of them must have been related to his joining the DE's and the other must have been related to his quitting the DE's. These memories are SO sensitive that Dumbledore was willing to offer the use of his pensieve to protect them. I think Snape just took the opportunity to add his greatest humiliation to the pot while he had the chance. ~ Constance: Quirrell Lives! From doliesl at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 18:46:57 2003 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (doliesl) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 18:46:57 -0000 Subject: Let's hear it for good old Snapey! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87868 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > vmonte wrote: > If we, the readers are to take Snape's, Dumbledore's, > Lupin's, Sirius', warnings in mind--we too should not take what we > see at face value. Things may not be what they appear! > > 1. I wonder why Snape removed his thoughts in front of Harry? Lacking imagination and contradicting the spirit of this group, I believed in the most simple: the book is written from Harry's POV. If Harry don't see it, we readers wouldn't have seen it. To write Snape taken out the memories in front of Harry would be the most straightfoward way to inform readers of other characters' actions . If Snape have taken out his memories in private, locked it safely in the cupboard, thus Harry (and readers) wouldn't have known about Snape using the pensieve at all...now there will be NO story at all will it? Some people suggest maybe it's Snape's scheme to trap a curious mind like Harry to see, I think some people feel this way because...it's actually more like JKR's designed scheme to give readers a live-action glimpse into Snape/MWPP's past -- JKR WANTS Harry/readers to see Snape's past. This past revelation is part of the MAJOR function of the whole Occlumency lesson is for. By now, do people honestly believe that Harry is MEANT to learn Occlumency in Book 5? I believe that is not what all those lesson chapters are about, Harry mastering the skill of Occlumency is neither the purpose nor the goal for this story. The REAL purpose of that whole plot, as it seems to me, is really about the interactions and revelation between Harry and Snape. The memories sharing aspect is a great unspoken way to let readers know more about Snape's past. Harry WILL look at pensieve so that we readers can get a glimpse of Snape's past and James's ugly truth. JKR set it up for failure and revelation. It seems that I'm saying JKR used a lousy plot device to deliever whatever purpose she wants to do. But she knows it is quite limiting (also convenient) since the book is written from Harry's POV. Sometimes something is not meant to taken at face value (as a lot of Hary's mistakes, especially concerning Snape, has shown), however sometimes it IS as straightfoward as it gets. > 2. If the pensieve belonged to Dumbledore where some of his > memories also in the pensieve? He could have emptied it out before lending it to Snape. Just like if you were lending a fresh iPod or Firewire drive to a friend. > 4. How do we know that these memories are Snapes? Is it just > because Harry repeated several times that they were. (Remember > Harry always takes things at face value.) Or is it merely JKR herself speaking through Harry directly this time, TELLING readers very clearly that that crying little boy, lonely teenager in dark room, boy on bucking broomsticks are young Snape? The least confusing and most effective, straightforward way to inform and clear up something for readers in one single line? Since such information did fit in with Snape's character, so I doubt it's meant to mean something completely different.,.for now (the story isn't about Snape you know...) D. From amani at charter.net Wed Dec 31 18:18:33 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 13:18:33 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Two Questions and a Request References: <440A0750.75D4DA31.4B073798@aol.com> Message-ID: <000d01c3cfca$80d82c20$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 87869 Oryomai: But this wasn't the Pensieve...this was when Harry and Severus were in Occulmency lessons. The passage before it: He [Snape] raised his wand. "One - two - three - *Legilimens*!" A hundred dementors were swooping toward Harry across the lake in the grounds....He screwed up his face in concentration....They were coming closer....He could see the dark holes beneath their hoods....yet he could also see Snape standing in front of him, his eyes fixed upon Harry's face, muttering under his breath....And somehow, Snape was growing clearer, and the dementors were growing fainter.... Harry raised his own wand. "*Protego*!" <> If it were the Pensieve, it would've made sense. But these were "normal" memories inside Severus' head. Taryn: ...oh my God. Wow, I answered THAT one too late at night. ^_^;;;;; I can NOT believe I did that. Heh. I'm going to go slink off in embarrassment now, sorry. ^_^;;;;;; ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 18:09:37 2003 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 18:09:37 -0000 Subject: Who is to blame (was: Whoa Nelly! Lots of Snape ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87870 Perhaps we do not know DD's primary purpose for the Occlumency lessons. His primary purpose may have been fulfilled, therefore no more lessons needed at that time. Snape may have been in on the primary purpose, maybe not. The point is that DD is the head of the Order and lets people know information on an as needed basis. He may not have needed for anyone to know his primary purpose for the Occlumency lessons. Given that JKR often speaks through DD, she may have been hiding the purpose intentionally either to bring it up later in the septology or to remind us readers that we in some ways are in the same position as those in the order (or as the students) and we do not know everything either. Isn't that what makes this an epic mystery? Julie From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 19:05:23 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 19:05:23 -0000 Subject: Quirrel and Scandinavia? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87871 Ah! Quirrell in Scandinavia, my favorite topic! I did not find the transcript of the interview, but I did find the message that was posted by one of our listees who was an eye-witness. You can read about it in message 6494 from Pam Scruton, here is an excerpt from the message: Jo thinks that Durmstrang is in northern Scandanavia - the very north of Sweden or Norway and that Beauxbatons is somewhere near Cannes in the south of France. She says she doesn't know for certain because, of course, the exact whereabouts of these schools is a closely- guarded secret to which she is not privy! (Note to those who think that the final movie disposition of Quirrell is canon - the listee didn't think that Jo was exactly pleased with the movie. But read the message for yourself. -CV) There was then a flurry of discussion about this, led by pengolodh_sc, whose main objection to having Durmstrang in northern Norway appears to be that he lives there and doesn't like the idea of it being in his backyard. His in-depth analysis is in post 20286. Actually, I'm kidding. The post and the followups are really worth reading. As are Steve's (bb_boy) messages which I've linked to below. I disagree with him, but respect his viewpoint and research. However, I came to the Durmstrang is in Norway conclusion from the completely different route of dragon eggs, trolls and lake portals, and I stand by that. Furthermore, I'm now linking the Lovegoods into the mix. Papa Lovegood is even now in Sweden, looking for Crumple- horned Snorkacks. I think he will find not only a Snorkack, but a no- longer-stuttering former Hogwarts professor. It is my opinion that just when things are looking bad for the Good Guys, Quirrell will come riding in in a triumphant Ride of the Valkyries leading a posse of Durmstrangers, Lovegoods, dragons, trolls and snorkacks and save the day. To borrow the sig of a legendary listee, That's my story and I'm sticking to it. ~ Constance Vigilance, Quirrell Lives! Message about the JKR interview: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/5961 Messages attempting to locate Durmstrang: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/6494 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/6534 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/20286 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/48422 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/44577 From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 19:44:09 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 19:44:09 -0000 Subject: Previous Grimauld Place & Inheritance Discussion Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87872 Since it has come up again, I thought I would refer interested parties back to previous discussion regarding what will happen to Grimauld Place and the rest of the Black Family Estate. Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 5:05 am Subject: Grimmauld Place http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/75450 A short post that restarts the thread. Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 10:58 pm Subject: Re: Grimmauld Place http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/75604 I post a summary and SIX links to old Inheritance threads. Date: Fri Aug 8, 2003 3:44 am Subject: RE: Grimauld Place http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/76095 Thread is restarted again. In conclusion, it gets down to the nature of inheritance in the wizard world. If 'Male Heir' takes precedence then Draco Malfoy is the oldest living Male Heir to the Black family blood line and therefore, the estate. If Sirius Black left a Will naming Harry and others, I could see this as a setup for a struggle between Draco and Harry over who gets the Black family inheritance. Did Sirius Black leave a will? I speculate that Black had a lot of time trapped in the Black family house in which he had nothing to do but think. He knew Voldemort was back, he knew these were dangerous times, and so I suspect he thoughts wandered to Harry and Harry future and wellbeing. With nothing but time on his hands and concern for Harry, I suspect he did take the time to draft a Will. Keep in mind that nothing will happen until it becomes public knowledge that Sirius is dead. Until then the Order can continue to use the Black house. When knowledge leaks out about Black's death, I think that is when Draco will try to claim the Black Family estate. This will lead to a battle between Draco and the Right of Inheritance, and Harry and Sirius's un-noterized handwritten Will which will, in my opinion, open the door to finally proving that Sirius was innocent, and that he was of sound mind and rightfully able to Will the Estate to his GODSON Harry. Can you imagine how FURIOUS Draco is going to be after all that has already happen, he is now cheated out of a very large inheritance that he feels is rightfully his. If you think things were bad between Draco and Harry, that's nothing compared to what is coming up. I haven't quite resolved the exact nature of that Will yet though. One thought is that he left the bulk of the estate to the Weasleys in Trust with the instructions that the Weasleys take over as Harry's guardian, and use the house and the money to look after Harry. Note that both Molly and Arthur are related to the Black family, although how distant that relationship is, we don't know. However, if my memory serves me correctly, Sirius commented that the Weasley name was surely burned of the tapestry since they are about as great of 'blood traitors' as you can get. That implies that the relationship is not too distant. (should really look that up) Certainly, I suspect that some portion of the estate has been left to Remus, the last of Sirius old school friends, and heaven knows Remus needs the money. In summary, one way or another, directly or indirectly, I see a battle between Draco and Harry that ends with Harry getting control of the Black Family Estate. Just a thought. bboy_mn From doliesl at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 19:46:41 2003 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (doliesl) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 19:46:41 -0000 Subject: Correcting Harry was: Re: Quirrel's Name In-Reply-To: <003701c3cfcb$d748f7a0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87873 > now Tcy: > This thread got me thinking about something I just re-read in PS/SS. > Dumbledore is continually correcting Harry calling our dear > Severus "Snape" rather than "Professor Snape." It caught my > attention, because Dumbledore never corrects Harry when he refers to > Quirrel as "Quirrel". Is it just a slip on Dumbledore's part - or is > there a reason for it? > > Taryn: > It's only in that last scene where Harry talks about what happened > with DD, right? Because I always noted that, but assumed that > Quirrel had lost his chance of being addressed in a respectful > manner cause...well, he was a baddie. Snape's a professor and > should be addressed as such. Quirrel turned out to be the bad guy, > so they don't have to refer to him in such a respectful manner > anymore. Not only at the end of Book 1, I remember there are more "correcting Harry" instances in the later books, but I cannot remember where exactly they are right now. I always have the impression of it being a reoccuring theme. Such as: US OOTP p.517 "Snape?" said Harry blankly, "*Professor* Snape, dear," said Mrs. Weasley reprovingly. The one and only time Harry willingly addressed Snape as "Professor" was when he Expelliarmus Lockhart. "Shouldn't have let Professor Snape teach us that one." D. From manawydan at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 31 19:35:08 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 19:35:08 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Let's hear it for good old Snapey! References: <1072820603.31828.95868.m18@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000d01c3cfd5$356e2360$644e6751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 87874 Devin asked: >defenseless proto-James). And what short of hate (or at least mild >loathing) would prompt a man to embarass an 11-year-old by asking him >questions he can't possibly know the answers to in one of his first >classes ever? I'm sorry, I can't possibly ever think of that as the Just a minor point, I'm sure, but _Hermione_ knew the answers to the questions, because she'd done the reading. So there's no absolute reason why Harry couldn't have known them. Snape was certainly setting out to be nasty, but also making the point that it's not just talent that's important, it's learning too (a good message for any novice wizard, in my opinion!) Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From oppen at mycns.net Wed Dec 31 19:28:39 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 13:28:39 -0600 Subject: Another HP filk... Message-ID: <00da01c3cfd4$4c3d2d80$58570043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 87875 My "Ravenclaw War Song" was an attempt to write the scariest-sounding Harry Potter filk I could---one as frightening to hear from the other side in a fight as "March of Cambreath." However, I then got to thinking. Why not do a HP filk to the tune of "March of Cambreath" itself? Accordingly, I present: ---------- War Song of the Order (ttto _March of Cambreath,_ by Heather Alexander) by Technomad Phoenix Order, this means war! Follow Albus Dumbledore! Wield your wand and cast your spell, Send all Death Eaters to hell! Turn them all to slugs and snails, Salt them then, from heads to tails! We can win if we just try: How many of them can we make die? HQ in the House of Black, We will soon launch our attack! Every time they cast a curse, We will give them ten times worse! They'd see us in slavery, We will win or else die free! Let them hear our battle cry: How many of them can we make die? Voldemort's by far the worst, If we can, we'll kill him first! Malfoy is the one that's next, He will soon be thoroughly hexed! Lestrange, Wormtail and Macnair We will slaughter then and there! Though for mercy they may try How many of them can we make die? Each of them's so steeped in crime They have lived for too much time, Death's the least that they deserve, >From our mission we'll not swerve! Use your wand and use your head, Let their blood flow bright and red! Voldemort thinks he's so sly, How many of them can we make die? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 20:09:59 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 20:09:59 -0000 Subject: Let's hear it for good old Snapey! In-Reply-To: <000d01c3cfd5$356e2360$644e6751@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87876 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" wrote: > > Just a minor point, I'm sure, but _Hermione_ knew the answers to the > questions, because she'd done the reading. > > So there's no absolute reason why Harry couldn't have known them. > > Snape was certainly setting out to be nasty, but also making the point that > it's not just talent that's important, it's learning too (a good message for > any novice wizard, in my opinion!) > > Cheers I am pretty sure that they did not have any homework before start of their first year. I am almost positive that Hermione did a reading, because she just likes to read (Trust me, I am the same way. :o)) She read "Hogwarts, a history" before they started too. Does it mean that any other student was supposed to read it too? I mean, good for them, if they do want to do it, but to punish student because he did not? :o) Alla From CoyotesChild at charter.net Wed Dec 31 20:18:27 2003 From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 14:18:27 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Another HP filk... In-Reply-To: <00da01c3cfd4$4c3d2d80$58570043@hppav> Message-ID: <000601c3cfdb$42ddde90$4e60bf44@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 87877 > From: Eric Oppen > > My "Ravenclaw War Song" was an attempt to write the scariest-sounding > Harry > Potter filk I could---one as frightening to hear from the other side in a > fight as "March of Cambreath." > > However, I then got to thinking. Why not do a HP filk to the tune of > "March > of Cambreath" itself? Iggy here, de-lurking for a second: I apologize that this is such a short letter, but I needed to send it anyhow. Eric, I have read a lot of the filks people have sent in, and have written a few of my own... And without a doubt (from me at least), this is one of the most well written filks I have ever seen... both in the HP genre and in others. (This is coming from someone who also did filks *years* ago when I was still in the SCA... including the Barony of Darkwood war song...) Well done! Iggy McSnurd From koukla_es at yahoo.es Wed Dec 31 20:55:54 2003 From: koukla_es at yahoo.es (neith_seshat) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 20:55:54 -0000 Subject: Blaise Zabini (Re: Male or Female) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87878 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "iris_ft" wrote: > Of course, there's Blaise Pascal. But in French classic literature, > Blaise is also a traditional name for valets. It's even a kind of > clich? in our 19th century's literature. For example, you find it in Victor Hugo's famous play "Ruy Blas". " Bon nuit, Iris! I'm glad someone remembers that play;-). There's also a French 17th century novel, written by Alain-Ren? Lesage, called "Gil Blas de Santillana" (or "de Santullano") where Victor Hugo may have taken the story. > But this is not a reply concerning old Uncle Hugo. So let's come > back to "our" Blaise Zabini. Yes, that's true. You wrote a nice research about the name. I'll just add my two knuts: Blaise was the name of the priest who saved Merlin's mother from the devil, and the one who educated him as a youngster. Later on, he was his historician, as Merlin visited him regularly to tell him his adventures. Thus, it is a magic and appropiate name, don't you think so? And maybe he's really good at Arithmancy ;-) Neith From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Dec 31 20:57:06 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 20:57:06 -0000 Subject: Let's hear it for good old Snapey! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87879 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" > > I am pretty sure that they did not have any homework before start of > their first year. I am almost positive that Hermione did a reading, > because she just likes to read (Trust me, I am the same way. :o)) > > She read "Hogwarts, a history" before they started too. Does it mean > that any other student was supposed to read it too? I mean, good for > them, if they do want to do it, but to punish student because he did > not? :o) > Just a couple of points. The implication is that between buying his books and getting to Hogwarts Harry showed insufficient interest or enthusiasm to open books which would have given him insight into a whole new world. Could you have left them unread? Secondly Snape was probably getting the answer to an important question - "Right, who's a dummy and who's a smart-arse?" He got the answer first try. Kneasy From suzchiles at msn.com Wed Dec 31 22:22:06 2003 From: suzchiles at msn.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 14:22:06 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Let's hear it for good old Snapey! References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87880 ----- Original Message ----- From: "arrowsmithbt" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 12:57 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Let's hear it for good old Snapey! > The implication is that between buying his books and getting to > Hogwarts Harry showed insufficient interest or enthusiasm to open > books which would have given him insight into a whole new world. > Could you have left them unread? I'm not sure what HP and the SS/PS you read, but in the edition I read (UK Adult paperback, p. 102) is this paragraph: Harry forced himself to keep looking straight into those cold eyes. He *had* looked through his books at the Dursleys', but did Snape expect him to remember everything in *One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi?* You seem to be a victim of binary thinking, dividing the class into "dummies" and "smart arses". In life actually, there's a huge middle group, neither dummy nor smart arse, who are wonderfully diverse, average people. Suzanne From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 22:26:00 2003 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 22:26:00 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 8, The Hearing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87881 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "allies426" wrote: > I've been following this thread, and I don't have a strong feeling > one way or the other (sorry, I'll pay particular attention on the > next re-read :) ) - but for the believers, any ideas why a squib > *would* be able to see Dementors? There's nothing at all magical > about them, as far as we know; they're basically Muggles born into a > wizarding family. If Muggles can't see them, why would Squibs? > > Allie Squibs are not *quite* Muggles born into wizarding families. They may have very weak or virtually nonexistent magical powers, but they're able to see Hogwarts (which is hidden by a spell so that Muggles can't see it), so there's no reason why they can't see Dementors as well. They also (presumably) know about the wizarding world and have some contact with it because of their families. Filch is trying to learn magic, and maybe there's some hope that he can actually do so. JKR has promised us that someone will discover the ability to perform magic late in life--presumably a squib--but I have a feeling that it will be Mrs. Figg, not Filch. I also see no reason not to believe Mrs. Figg, who is a member of the Order and one of Harry's protectors--a good person, if rather batty, with no reason to lie. I have a feeling that she's like a much older Neville--underestimated all her life, but with more courage and power than she's been credited with. I have no doubt whatever that Mrs. Figg can see the Dementors (which I wouldn't be able to describe, either. In fact, I'd be prostrate with terror!). Carol From meriaugust at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 23:07:06 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 23:07:06 -0000 Subject: The eavesdropper: round up the usual suspects...Plus more Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87882 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jotwo2003" wrote: > Although I bet we won't find out until book 7, I thought it might be > useful to list all the characters who may be the eavesdropper who > overheard the prophecy, and why. snipping the majority of the post > Dumbledore says that the eavesdropper could not inform his master > about the second half of the prophecy more snipping This line caught my attention while reading this post. I just finnished OotP last night and was struck by how the results of the prophecy were described by Dumbledore. He is specific that only part of the prophecy was heard by the spy, and that this small part was enough to convince LV that a baby boy would be born at the end of July (seemingly Harry or Neville) that would have the power to destroy the Dark Lord. Can anyone guess as to which part of the prophecy specifically the spy heard? Here is the full text of Prof. Trelawny's prophecy: "The One with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies....and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..." Any speculations about how the birth of (specifically) a baby boy is prophecized here? Or what parts they heard? Or who threw them out after they had overheard? Meri From kreneeb at hotmail.com Wed Dec 31 23:04:53 2003 From: kreneeb at hotmail.com (hermionekitten9) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 23:04:53 -0000 Subject: Previous Grimauld Place & Inheritance Discussion Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87883 bboy_mn wrote >In summary, one way or another, directly or indirectly, I see a >battle >between Draco and Harry that ends with Harry getting control of the >Black Family Estate. I have been reading all these post on who will inherit Grimauld Place. When a thought struck me, and I wanted to know what other members thought of it. If Harry were to be the one to inherit the old house would that deactivate the ancient charm that Dumbledore placed on Harry to protect him? In the fifth book doesn't Dumbledore say something along the lines that as long as Harry lives where his mother blood dwells Voldemort can't hurt him. So would inheriting the Sirius' house break that? Kitten, who would preferably have Draco have the house then Harry, no particular reason just think it would be more interesting. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 23:47:52 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 23:47:52 -0000 Subject: The eavesdropper: round up the usual suspects...Plus more Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 87884 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > > ...esited... Can anyone guess as to which part of the prophecy > specifically the spy heard? Here is the full text of Prof. > Trelawny's prophecy: > > "The One with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...Born > to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month > dies....and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will > have power the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand > of the other for neither can live while the other survives...The one > with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh > month dies..." > > Any speculations about how the birth of (specifically) a baby boy is > prophecized here? Or what parts they heard? Or who threw them out > after they had overheard? > > Meri bboy_mn: General- It doesn't seem like the spy could have heard more than "...The One with the power to vanguish the Dark Lord approaches... Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies..." In Harry and Dumbledore's conversation at the end of the book, Harry asks why Voldemort didn't wait to see who was more powerful, and Dumbledore says something to the effect that it would have been a wise thing for Voldemort to do, but Voldemort wasn't aware that in chosing Harry he would be directly and indirectly marking him, which would help fulfil the prophecy and enpower Harry (very much paraphrased). Almost anything after what I have suggested would have led Voldemort to exercise som restrain, would have led him to take a 'wait and see' attitude. For example, by choosing to attack Harry, he is acknowledging that Harry is his equal and potentially superior. Even if there is no physical mark, Voldemort's choice marks Harry. If Voldemort had heard the '...either must die ...niether can live...' part, that seems to imply that both Harry and Voldemort are immortal AS LONG AS they stay away from each other. At least, that's an extreme interpretation of that passage. Knowing it would be many years before Harry could directly threaten him, a wise Voldemort would have used that time to rule without limitation. So, I'm convinced he did not hear more than I have quoted about. Specifics- However, you raise a very very interesting point. The first mention of the 'ONE' being a boy comes in the line '...mark HIM as an equal...'. So how did Voldemort know it was a boy? Enquiring minds want to know. It's possible that there we only two families expecting babies amoung the group who was actively working against Voldemort. It was just insignificant chance in Voldemort's mind that those two babies turned out to be boys. Just a thought. bboy_mn