Propehcy correct/Neville never could be the one

[Diana]

No: HPFGUIDX 86278

"jwcpgh" wrote:
> Which makes me wonder what good the blasted things are in the
first
> place. At no time and under no circumstances does learning a
> prophecy help anyone-it's either too early or too late (as Kneasy
> points out below).

Salit wrote:
No. A prophecy must be fulfilled. The fact that it is heard and who
actually hears it is part of the conditions that set out its
fulfillment. In that way, it is no coincidence that it was DD that
heard the first prophecy and Harry that heard the second. The
prophecy *would not have happened* without the right set of
listeners. That of course includes the eavesdopper. For the prophecy
to be fulfilled, DD had to hear the entire thing, as he was the best
person around to help bring it about - and the spy had to hear just
enough of it to get Voldemort to act on it thereby sealing his doom.
It may sound like a circular argument, but it works somewhat like
the time turner in PoA. To save people in the present, their future
selves had to do the right things at the right time. In some
respects, the prophecy is a message from the future designed to set
in motion the right sequence of events to bring about what it
predicts.

"jwcpgh" wrote:
> And that's why this particular prophecy has been tainted almost
from
> the moment it was uttered. Once LV heard any part of it, his
> actions would influence the remainder.

Salit replied:
But that was the whole point, wasn't it? Voldemort had to hear some
of the prophecy in order for him to take action, thereby make it
happen.

******I (Diana) write:
I agree with Salit.  To elaborate on what was already written, the 
prophecy about Harry and Voldemort MUST have been overheard in order 
to be fulfilled, thus the prophecy's very existence and ultimate 
accuracy depends on the right person hearing it and the right people 
overhearing it.  The prophecy creates a paradox - it had to be made, 
overheard and acted upon by both the good guys and the bad guys so 
that the prophecy would be fulfilled and become true, necessitating 
it being made in the first place.  
The prophecy was never actually 'tainted' - it being heard and 
overheard was a vital condition of its very existence.  

"jwcpgh" wrote:
> We know that the original
> prophecy could have referred to one of two children. If LV had
been
> smart (apparently his spy neglected to tell him at the time that
> s/he was passing along incomplete information-or else LV is not as
> smart as he thinks he is) he would have bided his time in scenic
> Albania and waited to see how the 2 kids grew up.

Salit wrote:
Voldemort was told only that the one with the power to vanquish him
approaches and how to identify him. Makes sense to destroy your
enemy when they are least likely to resist. He had no reason to
suspect that his act will actually help bring that about. That was
the spy had to be there and hear just enough (and no more) so that
Voldemort will do what he had to do.

"jwcpgh" wrote:
> But LV panicked
> and marked Harry, thus putting Neville out of the running. And
> having marked Harry, LV had no choice but to try to kill him.
This
> isn't prophecy, it's a logical result of his choosing to mark
> someone.

Salit wrote:
Ha? LV did not panic. He acted logically. He went to destroy one who
was prophecied to have the power to destroy him when he was least
able to resist. And Voldemort did not first mark Harry then tried to
kill him - Harry was marked by the killing act itself.
As for Neville, clearly Voldemort had additional information that
pointed out the Potters as risk to himself. Maybe another prophecy?

*******I (Diana) would like to add:
That's just it, isn't it?  Voldemort ISN'T as smart as he thinks he 
is!  He repeatedly admitted forgetting several important details 
which saved Harry's life in CoS (healing power of Phoenix tears, 
etc.) and has often changed his gloating/actions in order to pretend 
events weren't out of his control or understanding in SS, CoS, GoF 
and OoP (just a few are: delaying murdering Harry on several 
occasions just so he could gloat; giving a helpless and injured 
Harry back his wand in the graveyard so they could duel (and 
Voldemort LOST!); pretending to be pleased that Harry didn't die 
from the basilisk venom so that Riddle could kill Harry himself; 
ignoring Bellatrix's attempt to warn him of Dumbledore's presence at 
the MoM, et al). 
Voldemort is extremely vain, so he wouldn't run even the slightest 
chance of losing any of the power he'd gained that would have 
resulted from his waiting to kill a baby that was a definite threat 
to him.  Voldemort would have lost face in the eyes of his 
followers, and he wouldn't put up with that.  And I don't think 
Voldemort tried to killed Harry out of logic either, it was a 
decision born out of hatred, cowardice and fear.  Remember, 
Voldemort doesn't know that the true winner of his battle with Harry 
has yet to be determined - the prophecy stated either side could 
win, but Voldemort didn't hear that part.  As far as Voldemort knew, 
a child was born with the power to vanquish him...and fearing being 
vanquished, Voldemort attempted to kill the one destined to kill him 
by striking when that person was a helpless child.  He was too 
cowardly to wait until the child was older so that he could kill 
Harry in a true duel, but instead intended to kill Harry when Harry 
was incapable of fighting back - cowardice personified!  
Riddle/Voldemort is a powerful wizard, no doubt about it, but he's 
not that bright.  Sure he tricked Harry to go to the MoM in OoP, but 
being able to trick a fifteen-year-old boy trying desparately to 
save the only parental figure he's ever known is hardly difficult, 
is it?  Just because a wizard is powerful doesn't make that wizard 
an intelligent person who behaves in intelligent ways.  Let's say 
Voldemort did succeed in oppressing muggles and stopping 
muggle/wizard intermarriages - then wizards would indeed die out.  
They would cease to exist.  Genocide is not a great outcome for 
someone supposedly wanting to preserve the wizarding way of life.  

After much thought, I don't think the prophecy ever could have 
applied to Neville; it was always going to be Harry.  Only the good 
guys (Dumbledore) thought it could be Harry or Neville, but that was 
only because they knew of two sets of expectant parents who fit the 
desription in the prophecy and saw either child as a potential 
threat to Voldemort.  In Voldemort's eyes, though, the only true 
threat was going to be Harry and that is because of Harry's being of 
half-muggle parentage - just like Voldemort.  Dumbledore, Voldemort 
and even Harry himself have commented on how many similarities Harry 
shares with Voldemort, which means Voldemort was always going to 
chose the person most like himself as the true threat to his power.  

Salit wrote:
I guess the point I am trying to make is that the prophecy had to
happen. Trying to analize how people's mistakes brought about the
tragic sequence of events misses the point. They had to make them
(or one could imagine a different set of tragic events to take
place).

*******I (Diana) write:
No doubt about it - the prophecy did have to happen, though the side-
trips taken on the way to it becoming reality were probably up in 
the air.  And whether or not Harry wins or Voldemort wins, the 
prophecy didn't say.  Maybe the ultimate outcome is so dependent on 
choice (Harry's, Voldemort's, Dumbledore's, etc.) that there were 
too many alternate results brancing into infinity to express in a 
prophecy.  Maybe Harry's repeated run ins with Voldemort/Riddle are 
all just instances of the prophecy waiting for fulfillment.  
Everytime Harry has come face to face with Voldemort, he's nearly 
died at Voldemort's hand, but manages to escape.  Yet, in each case, 
Harry almost no chance of killing Voldemort in any of those 
scenarios.  Harry couldn't have killed Vapormort at the end of SS/PS 
because he just didn't know enough magic to do so.  At the end of 
CoS, Harry only 'killed' the memory of sixteen-year-old Voldemort 
and was never actually confronting the current Voldemort.  In PoA, 
Voldemort was just a background character and as Pettigrew was not 
yet back with Voldemort until the very end, Pettigrew killing Harry 
for any reason would not have been on Voldemort's command.  At the 
end of GoF, Harry had his first real chance of killing Voldemort, 
but did he really?  Surrounded by Death Eaters and in a weakened 
condition, Harry more than likely couldn't have killed Voldemort 
even if he wanted to.  He didn't know how to do the killing curse or 
even Imperio, so unless he could have killed him with some of the 
jinxes he knew, Voldemort was in no real physical danger from 
Harry.  At the end of OoP, Harry was really no match for Voldemort 
face to face and would have died if Dumbledore hadn't appeared upon 
the scene when he did.  Sure, Harry tried Crucio on Bellatrix, but 
it wasn't that successful.  
So, for Harry to kill Voldemort like the prophecy states as one of 
two possible outcomes, Harry must have the ability to kill Voldemort 
at one of their upcoming confrontations. So Harry must master the 
killing curse or find an unexpected weakness to exploit (love 
perhaps?) to use to kill Voldemort.  One thing is for sure, their 
future confrontations are probably going to be violent and intense.

Diana L.