Legilimens and Occlumens and Snape's Reasons

[wry1352000]

No: HPFGUIDX 86289

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, 
Zinaida asked:
Was Snape purposefully extracting a particular kind
of memories - acting as a dementor, of sorts - to humiltiate
Harry?

 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
I think Snape was intentionally extracting painful memories from Harry
so that Harry could get some idea of how Voldemort could use
legilemency against him. (Also, of course, most of Harry's memories 
are
unhappy, as we know from the difficulty he had finding one that would
work for the Patronus charm.).... Snape is proud and he detests
Harry, but he isn't a dementor or an agent of Voldemort. There is
always a reason for his actions--and his emotions.
Carol

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "artcase" <artcase at y...> wrote:
> I disagree. Some schools of thought in dog training use shock 
> collars and negative response to get a dog to behave. Snape used 
> Harry's worst memories to trigger a reaction of aversion inside 
> Harry's head.... The scene where Harry uses the stinging hex to 
repel Snape seems interesting. Not only is Harry building walls of 
defense, but he fires back in offense. ... 
Art

Zinaida:

I don't think that Snape is an agent of Voldemort or a dementor :).  
But I think he is *behaving* as a dementor during Occlumency lessons 
with Harry.  It seems to me that Snape is using the "that's-what-
Voldemort-would-do-to-you" explanation ("you are handing me 
weapons... Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves... 
stand no chance against his powers!") as an excuse to do at these 
lessons what he is always doing to Harry at his regular lessons.  Why 
I think that?  All that Snape says is true, but if he were more 
concerned with teaching Harry Occlumency than with accessing his 
uncomfortable memories per se (note, I don't say he wasn't concerned 
with the former  - it's just a matter of comparison), 
(1) he would not have done what Voldemort might do at the first 
attempt of the first lesson, increasing the difficulty gradually (as 
he does at his potions classes) and allowing Harry to build on his 
successes;
(2) he would have *first* explained to Harry in detail what he should 
do rather than later at Harry's demands;
(3) he would have given him time to prepare at first, again allowing 
for gradual increase of difficulty.
(Not to mention that the normal and decent thing to do in such a 
delicate situation would be to provide Harry with a pensive as well.)
I think that , although Harry was curious about the mysterious door 
at MOM, he wanted to and did make an effort to learn Occlumency, but 
the problem was that Snape hindered him almost as much as helped, and 
although I don't think Snape was *purposefully* "softening Harry up 
for Voldemort that's exactly what happened, for Harry's feeling ill 
for a long time after the first lesson and his scar prickling all the 
time from then on were clearly the result of Snape's "method."   

Harry's searching about for a thought happy enough to banish a 
dementor (i.e. depression) doesn't mean he didn't have lots of 
normal, neutral memories or enough ordinarily pleasant ones.  After 
all, for the last five years he had been living with the Dursleys for 
only two months a year, and most of the memories which "surfaced" 
during the Occlumency lessons are way old.  At one point he 
was "forced, yet again, to relive a stream of very early memories he 
had not even realized he still had" (590). 

I think that whatever sporadic successes Harry had during those 
lessons are probably the result of his general high talent in the 
DADA.

It also seems to me that whatever methods are used by some schools in 
dog training, some of them are not quite appropriate in high school 
teaching.  And does Harry really need "aversion therapy" to not wish 
his mind to be broken into by Voldemort?  And I think Snape has 
already built up enough aversion to himself in Harry prior to book 5 
for Harry not to wish him to read his mind either :).

And while I don't think Snape is a clandestine Voldemort supporter, I 
do wonder whether he is not, perhaps, overly fascinated by the dark 
arts (quite apart from Voldemort).  *Maybe* Dumbledore is afraid that 
if Snape delves too much into them he might be tempted to use them 
for his own ends (not to be come a second Voldemort, but for whatever 
his ends might be, and some of them not very positive either), and 
that's why he doesn't want Snape to teach DADA.  What does seem 
evident to me, however, is that when DADA (in the broad sense) agenda 
conflicts with his personal revenge agenda – as in the Shrieking 
Shack and Occlumency lessons situations – he is quite capable of 
eschewing the former for the latter, no matter how high the stakes 
are.  I don't think he means to help Voldemort, rather that he gets 
so blinded by his desire for revenge that he loses any perspective.  
Sure, any person has reasons for his actions and emotions, it's just 
the matter of which reasons one chooses.  And in regards to Harry, 
sometimes it seems to me that it's Snape rather than Sirius who 
doesn't see the difference between him and James
 and anyway one 
would think that after 5 years he might have just tired of the 
game :).

I apologize if my previous post (or this one) gave offense – I 
certainly didn't mean to condemn Snape as the necessary future 
traitor, merely speculating – what his various motives might be and 
whether his passion for revenge against supposed allies might not 
*accidentally* take him too far at some point.  But no, I think it 
very unlikely (although not 100% impossible) that he'll ever return 
to Voldemort's service.      

Zinaida.

P.S.
On the Shrieking Shack situation and Snape's "knowledge" as to who is 
guilty, compare his behavior with Dumbledore's who says he gave 
evidence to the MOM that Black was the Potters' secret keeper 
(apparently in good knowledge, as he thought at the time - it seems 
he had it from James Potter himself), but that doesn't prevent him 
from listening to Sirius.