Bang! You're Dead.

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 86368

> <justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> 
> > Carol, who firmly believes that the unforgiveable curses should not 
> >be used by the good guys
> 
> I've never thought of that before, Carol.  But then again, if the 
> good guys don't use AK, then they are presumably handicapped in the 
> fight against evil, right?  Can the good guys afford that in a 
> situation when lethal force might be justified?
> 
> Now, I understand that the same goes for other Unforgivables.  If the 
> DEs use torture, which they undoubtedly do, then are the good guys 
> allowed to use it also?
> 
> I'm new around these parts, so be gentle.
> 
> North

Hi, North. I really think they'd cease to be good guys if they used
torture and they certainly won't ally themselves with dementors. I
think most of us here agree that the WW is in need of a good overhaul,
meaning the elimination of slavery, the need to bring real justice to
the justice system, the improvement of conditions at Azkaban, etc. In
my view (and I have absolutely no idea whether anyone agrees with me),
these are the goals that the Good side will accomplish or attempt to
accomplish when the war is over.

We have a big debate going on here over when and whether killing a
Death Eater is justified, not in our own view but in JKR's. Even Mad
Eye Moody in his auror days killed only Rosier, who went down fighting
and blasted away part of his nose in the process, and possibly Wilkes.
He always captured rather than killed when he could, even though Barty
Crouch Sr. had authorized the use of the unforgiveable curses (which
means he was using violence to fight violence and Evil to fight Evil).
Whether any aurors used the Cruciatus and Imperius curses, we don't
know. I doubt that the real Moody did (Imposter!Moody did, but he was
a Death Eater). Barty Crouch Sr. was using "necessity" as an argument
not only for changing the laws and making illegal curses legal (at
least for aurors) but also tampering with morality and ethics,
suddenly making the unforgiveable forgiveable. The result was anarchy.
If it hadn't been for Harry Potter miraculously defeating Voldemort at
the age of fifteen months, it's very likely that vigilante justice,
blood feuds, and general lawlessness would have prevailed.

Clearly, that can't be the outcome of the second war, or Voldemort
would have taken over the world by 2003. (Seriously, I'm assuming that
whatever happens to Harry, Good will triumph and Voldemort will be
destroyed. But in my view, that can only happen if the Good side holds
to its principles and does not use the weapons of Evil, including the
unforgiveable curses.

Now the question is, where does that leave them? Can they use only
defensive spells or short-term hexes to protect themselves? They
can--and should--do without Imperio and Crucio, but can they (morally)
kill a Death Eater if the killing spell is unforgiveable? I don't
think it's the fact that Avada Kedavra kills that makes it
unforgiveable, it's that (unless you're Harry Potter) there's no way
to block it.  If there's another killing spell that can be blocked,
that hasn't been defined by the WW as unforgiveable, I see no reason
why it couldn't be used against a Death Eater in self-defense.

As for Harry facing Voldemort, I personally hope that he tries to AK
Harry and the spell rebounds on him again, destroying him once and for
all. That would only work, of course, if it didn't destroy Harry in
the process. He survived the first time, stronger than he would have
been if it weren't for the scar, but what would be the effects the
second time? Maybe to wipe away all trace of Voldemort, even the
ability to speak Parseltongue, so that Harry is Just Harry? That, in
my view, would be the ideal ending.

I realize I've wandered rather far from your original question, but
the problem is, I don't know the answer. I'm thinking that we'll find
out more about how to fight Evil without resorting to the tactics and
ethics of Evil in future books. There has to be an alternative to
Avada Kevadra. And as for Crucio, Imperio, or torture in any form, I
would say that those are the Death Eaters' weapons and the Good side
cannot use them without tainting and corrupting itself.

Carol