Snape as a Spy, but for Whom?

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 86429

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at y...>
wrote:

> Carol in response to Aesha:
> 
> Voldemort also presumably knows all about Snape's opposition to
> Quirrell in SS/PS. ... 
> 

bboy_mn:

One minor point regarding Snape's interaction with Quirrell while
Voldemort possessed Quirrell; Voldemort did not reveal himself to
Snape, therefore Snape had no way of knowing he was working against
Voldemort. So, while Voldemort can be unhappy about it, he certainly
can't blame Snape, or consider Snape's actions as being directed
against Voldemort. 

> 
> bboy_mn wrote:
> I don't think this idea [that LV ordered Snape to teach at Hogwarts}
> comes from anything JKR specifically said or implied.
> 
> Carol:
> You're right. It doesn't. There's nothing in canon, including the
> interviews, to support it.
> 

bboy_mn:

Minor nitpicking point in your paraphrasing of my original statement,
it's not a question of Voldemort sending Snape to teach at Hogwarts,
which he did not, it's a question of Snape joining or appearing to
join Dumbledore's side in the fight. Snape teaching at Hogwarts was
secondary, this was an appointment made by Dumbledore after Voldemort
was defeated. Sort of a reward for Snape's efforts on behalf of the Order.

In order for Snape to be a spy for Voldemort while pretending to help
the Order, Snape would have had to continue to work closely with
Voldemort and the DE's. If he broke off all ties with Voldemort, he
would have little new information to bring to the Order. That's the
only way he could be an effective spy for Dumbledore, but at the same
time, to be an effective spy for Voldemort, he would have to spend
some time with Dumbledore and the Order. Although, I think in the
early stages, he spent little or no time with the rest of the members
of the Order; too easy to blow his cover if he did that.


> bboy again:
>  
> Snape has kept close ties to the Death Eaters, most notibly Malfoy,
> who escaped Azkaban.
> 
> Carol:
> .... We know that he's in contact with Malfoy .... Somehow Snape has
> convinced his old friend Malfoy that he's not a traitor. ...
> 
> Snape's mission at the end of GoF was not necessarily to go directly
> to Voldemort, which would have put him in extreme danger and was
> wholly unnecessary given his friendship with Malfoy. It makes much
> more sense for him to have explained to Malfoy  that it was 
> impossible for him to leave the Tri-Wizard tournament ....


bboy_mn:

You may be suurprised to find that I agree with you. I said Snape's
job was to get into Voldemort's /good graces/. To do that effectively,
he would have certainly contacted Malfoy first, and sent Malfoy as his
envoy to Voldemort with assurances that Snape was just playing his
role as the good double agent.


> Carol:
>
> Voldemort was not in contact with Malfoy and the DEs until he 
> summoned them to the cemetery in GoF ...

bboy_mn:

That is a fair but not necessarily sure assumption. Voldemort seemed
to forgive Malfoy much easier than he (figuratively) forgave the rest.
That always made me wonder if perhaps Voldemort and/or Peter had been
in contact with Malfoy prior to the graveyard scene. If they were in
contact, it was very limited contact. I believe it was Malfoy who
asked Voldemort to explain how he was able to miraculously get his
body back. That could lead some to concluded there was no prior
contact, although for me, it just implies very limited contact. 


> Carol:
>
> Malfoy could have gone to Voldemort with Snape's explanation for his
> absence from the cemetery and Voldemort could have pretended to 
> believe it, biding his time since revenge against Snape is 
> impossible while he's at Hogwarts. 

bboy_mn:

Oh I am quite sure that while Voldemort may have appeared to have
taken Snape back, he trusts no one. Voldemort is allowing for the
possibility that Snape really is aiding Dumbledore, and is just
playing Snape along until such time as he has outlived his usefulness.

I also think that is Voldemort's attitude toward all the Death Eaters.
He values the lives of his friends not more than he values the lives
of his enemies, and he will not hesitate to 'terminate' any DE who has
outlived his usefulness.

Also, I don't think Snape is protected by his residence at Hogwarts, I
think he is protected by Voldemort preception of some short term
usefulness for Snape.


> 
> bboy:
> <snip>
>  
> So, Voldemort thinks Snape pretenting to be a spy for Dumbledore
> while secretly spying for Voldemort. That's the only way that I can 
> see that Voldemort would allow Snape back in his presents without 
> killing him.
> 
> Carol:
> As I've said, there's no evidence that Snape has been in Voldemort's
> presence, only in Lucius Malfoy's. There's a big difference.


bboy_mn:

I agree that initially it would have been unwise for Snape to come
directly into Voldemort's presents. All reasonable logic says that he
would have sent Malfoy first to pave the way. However, in the
Occulmency lessons, Snape views Harry's memory of Voldemort torturing
Avery (I think); this is when Voldemort finds out from Rookwood that
the info Avery gave him about retrieving the prophecy was inaccurate. 

In any event, Snape recognises the room. That would imply that Snape
has direct knowledge of where Voldemort is staying. I believe this is
also the lesson where Snape says that it is indeed his job and not
Harry's to spy on Voldemort (seriously paraphrased). 

That is not evidence that Snape has been in Voldemort's presents but
it is a very strong indicator of that possibility. Certainly, once
Malfoy talk to Voldemort about Snape, Voldemort would have wanted to
meet Snape face-to-face, so he could look him in the eye and determine
for himself if Snape was lying.


> Carol:
> 
> Since Snape is most often at Hogwarts and his mission when he's not
> there is to spy on the Death Eaters ..., I see no reason why he has 
> to do anything "nasty" other than let drop a stray piece of 
> information on occasion, presumably with the permission of 
> Dumbledore.
> 
> Just how all this will change with Malfoy et al. in Azkaban and
> Bellatrix at large, I can't guess. But I'm certain he won't be
> foolhardy enough to go directly to Voldemort.
> 
> Carol

bboy_mn:
As I said, to some extent a double agent must betray both side while
working for both sides. At some point each side is going to expect
Snape to reveal useful information, and Snape will have no choice but
to come through. However, if he continually provide a lot of minor
seemingly useful information that can keep him in sufficienlty good
grace to not have to engage in a mahjor betrayal of either side. Or at
least, no mahjor betrayal until we get closer to the final showdown.

As far as Snape and Voldemort meeting face-to-face, I agree that in
the beginning, that wasn't possible, but now that Snape has
established himself, I think there are indicators in the book that
imply that Snape has been in direct contact with Voldemort.

Although, on a routine basis, I think it is wisest for Snape to have
as little direct contact with Voldemort as possible. It would seem
reasonable that he would relay minor information by owl, or by some
other contact with a third party; most likely Malfoy. 

Now that Malfoy and the many other DE's are locked up, it will be
interesting to see how the dynamic changes. Certainly, the DE's in
prison complicates things, but I'm unclear what the manifestations of
the complications will be.

Just a thought.

bboy_mn