Snape as a Spy, but for Whom?

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 86471

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at y...>
wrote:
> > > Carol in response to Aesha:
> > > 
> > > Voldemort also presumably knows all about Snape's opposition to
> > > Quirrell in SS/PS. ... 
> > > 
> > 
> > bboy_mn:
> > 
> > ... regarding Snape's interaction with Quirrell while
> > Voldemort possessed Quirrell; Voldemort did not reveal himself to
> > Snape, therefore Snape had no way of knowing he was working 
> > against Voldemort. ...


> 
> Carol:
> Don't you think that Snape knows that Quirrell is trying to get the
> stone for Voldemort? 

bboy_mn:

No; sorry, I don't.  How would Snape know? Why would he even suspect
that Voldemort was involved when there had been no sign of Voldemort
for more that a decade?

> Carol:
>
> He taunts Quirrell about "where his loyalties
> lie," which to me means with Voldemort or with Dumbledore. 

bboy_mn:

Which to me means, for Dumbledore or against him. I don't see
Voldemort in the equation from Snape's perspective.


> Carol:
>
> Snape ... would have used his talents as a Legilmens to read ... 
> Quirrell's mind ...
> 

bboy_mn:

Accept, we have no real indication that Snape is talented at
Legilimency. We know he can cast the spell, but we have no indications
that he has any ingrained talent for probing other people's minds. We
do, however, know that Snape does have a very gifted natural talent in
Occlumency, but having the talent to block your mind does not
automatically include the talent to probe other people's minds.


> Carol:
>
> ... You don't seem fully convinced of his loyalty to Dumbledore; ... 


bboy_mn:

Actually, I do think Snape is commited to Dumbledore's side, but as a
double agent, I think he may have to do some pretty nasty things
against one or more members of the Order to maintain his cover.


> Carol:
> Also, I don't see any need for him to come face to face with 
> Voldemort, but if he did, he'd need every bit of his expertise in 
> occlumency. 

bboy_mn:

And I can't see Voldemort allow Snape to live unless he met him
face-to-face and attempted to probe his mind to determine his true
allegiance. I do agree that Snape needed every bit of his Occlumency
talent to pull off the deception. And as I pointed out, even if
Voldemort fully believed Snape, that wouldn't stop him from throwing
in a few pain curses just for good measure.

> Carol:
>
> I still think that being at Hogwarts protects Snape ... during the 
> school year, at least as long as Dumbledore is there. 
> 

bboy_mn:

Without a doubt everyone is safe while they are at Hogwart and under
the watchful eye of Dumbledore, but at this point in time, Snape needs
no protection.

I do confess that in the time between Voldemort's return and when
Snape had Malfoy contact Voldemort on Snape's behalf, Snape was
vulnerable. But, once Malfoy vouched for Snape, and offered
explanations and reasurances, Snape was pretty safe.

> Carol:
>
> I'm still not clear about your reference to Snape being familiar
> with the room Voldemort was in. Can you provide a page reference and
> an explanation?
> 

bboy_mn:

First remember the scene in Harry's dorm room, where Harry is seeing
through Voldemort's eyes as Voldemort questions Rookwood. Rookwood
explains that no one but the people involved in the prophecy would be
able to remove it from the shelf. (OoP Am. Ed. HB Pg 584- ) Before
Rookwood escaped from Azkaban, Avery told Voldemort that Bode would be
able to remove the prophecy from the shelf. That cause Voldemort to
waste time sending two people (Bode and Podmore) who had no chance at
all of getting the prophecy, after it.

Since Avery provided the inaccurate information, at the end of the
scene, Voldemort is torturing Avery.

This scene is seen by Harry through Voldemort's eyes, so Harry sees
the room that Voldemort is in, but does not see Voldemort himself.

Later in an Occlumency lesson with Snape, that memory is pulled from
Harry's mind and Snape question Harry about how that particular room
came to be in Harry's mind. 


--- Quote - (OoP Am. Ed. HB Pg 590- ) ---

"That last memory," said Snape. "What was it?"

"I don't know," said Harry, getting wearily to his feet. ..edited...
"You mena the one where my cousin tried to make me stand in the toilet?"

"No," said Snape softly. "I mean the one concerning a man kneeling in
the middle of a darkened room."

..edited...

"How do that man and that room come to be inside you hear, Potter?"
said Snape.

...edited...

"... How many other dreams about the Dark Lord have you had?"

--- pause quote ---


Remember Voldemort could not be seen in the dream because everything
was seen through Voldemort's eyes, so Snape recognises the room, and
knows that it is the location where the Dark Lord is staying. To have
that detailed knowledge from the short flash of Harry's memory, I
conclude that Snape would have to know the room intimately enough to
recognise it as a room at the location that Voldemort is staying. To
have that level of intimate knowledge, he would have had to have been
there.


--- Quote Continues Pg 591 ---

"...," said Snape coldly, "because ..., it is no up to you to find out
what the Dark Lord is saying to his Death Eaters."

"No -- that's your job, isn't it?" Harry shot back at him.

...edited...

"Yes, Potter," he (Snape) said, his eyes glinting. "That is my job. ...."

--- End Quote ---


Snape admits that it is his job to spy on Voldemort and the Death
Eaters, and further implies that Snape is capable of relaying specific
statements made by Voldemort. Admittedly, he could get that
information second hand, but second hand is second best to actually
hearing it.

If Voldemort was still mad at Snape, Snape would not be able to safely
be in contact with any Death Eaters. The fact that he is able to,
indicate that he has reconciled with Voldemort; at least for now.

The only scenerio I can think of that would allow Snape to have done
the things he's done, and still be able to return to Voldemort's army,
is if he was a double agent from the very beginning. Remember that a
significant number of people know that Snape gave testimony against
DE's during the 'war crimes' trials. The only way for Snape to do that
and still be able to get back into the DE's would be if he was always
working both sides. Remember, to be a double agent, each side has to
expect to be betrayed to some extent in order for the double agent to
maintain his position as a double agent.


> Carol:
>
> As for Snape sending Voldemort an owl, I really don't think so. 
> 


bboy_mn:

Actually, I was referring to general routine communcations for
Voldemort, not intending to imply communications send directly to
Voldemort. I agree that for security and other reasons most
communications would go through a go-between; most likely Malfoy, and
only used the owl as an illustration.

Just as the Order does not want flock of owl flying in and out of
headquaters, Voldemort would also want to maintain that security. So
Snape may be communication by owls, but it is indirectly through an
intermediary.


> Carol:
>
> One last question to anyone who's interested: Do we know for sure 
> that Snape knows Voldemort's true identity? ...edited...
> 
> Carol

bboy_mn:

I'm thoroughly convinced that Snape now knows about the Tom
Riddle/Voldemort connection, but exactly when he found out, I'm not sure. 

I also wonder just how much the Death Eaters know about Tom Riddle.
They must have some vague knowledge, and now that they have been to
the graveyard location of the re-embodiment of Voldemort, they have
surely made the connection. But exactly what they know about Tom
Riddle Sr and his being a muggle is unclear. I believe Voldemort made
the comment to Harry about Tom Riddle Sr. being a muggle and a fool
before the DE's arrived.


Just a few thoughts.

bboy_mn