There is Death and then again there is death (was: It's A Wonderful Life?)

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 86692

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Derek Hiemforth <derek at r...> wrote:
> 
> >> Rachel:
> >>   Just a small note that JKR might have been trying to give a hint 
> >> in the scene after the prophecy has smashed in OOtP (british version
> >> pg 814) between DD and Voldie:
> >> 
> >> "You do not seek to kill me dumbledore?..." - Voldie
> >> 
> >> "We both know that there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom... 
> >> Merely taking your life would not satisfy me, I admit-" - DD
> >> 
> >> ...edited...
> >
> >madeyesgal:
> >
> >In an earlier post, I (tongue in cheeck) suggested that Harry and LV 
> >fight it out in the end, Harry disarm LV and in the end a dementor 
> >administers the "kiss" to Voldmort. 
> [snip]

> 
> Derek:
> Taking a page from Frank Capra's classic film "It's a Wonderful Life,"
> I wonder if Dumbledore was talking about making it so that LV had
> never existed?  ...edited...
> 
> Perhaps they could somehow arrange things (time travel? an obscure
> spell?) so that history is altered such that Tom Riddle never 
> becomes Lord Voldemort.  Maybe the ultimate solution is not for 
> Harry to killLord Voldemort, but for Harry to *prevent* "Lord 
> Voldemort" and *redeem* Tom Riddle by somehow turning him away from 
> this course before he ever takes it.
> 
> ...edited...
> 
> Too wild?  Have I now convinced you all that I'm crazy?  :)
> 
> - Derek

bboy_mn:

I have repeatedly said, 'There is death and then again there is death;
the two not necessarily being the same.

I think when we are dealing with something as abstract, symbolic, and
ambiguous as a 'prophecy', we need to be careful not to take things to
literally.

Death doesn't necessarily have to be stone cold in-your-grave dead. 

Example; as other's have suggested, the dementor's kiss would kill the
 essence of evil that is Voldemort totally and completely. Once the
kiss was administered, Voldemort would cease to exist even thought his
corperal form (his body) would live on. 

Am I my body, or is my 'Living Self' my mind and spirit?

My true Self is no more my body than my physical self is my car. Like
my car, my body is merely the vehicle in which my True Self is
transported.

Possible way in which Voldemort could cease to exist without physical
death-

- Dementor's Kiss

- If Voldemort lost his magic powers, he would be reduced to his worst
nightmare; he would become a muggle. A hopeless, helpless wreck of a
freak, powerless to live in the wizard world, to much of a hideous
freak to exist in the muggle world. I can see Voldemort hanging
himself from the nearest tree before he would endure such a torturous
life. Utterly destroyed by Harry Potter, who undoubtedly caused his
defeat and death, yet dead by his own hand.

- Voldemort could be reduce to Tom Riddle. All essence of the evil
Voldemort could be gone, leaving behind a more insightful and
regretful Tom Riddle to pay the price for his crimes; 'snake man'
becomes human again.

- Voldemort driven hopelessly insane by a sudden attack of empathy and
conscience; a sudden full emotional and spiritual awareness of the
magnitude and depth of his crimes. An empathy so strong that he is
doomed to live forever lost in the crushing pain and guilt of his
actions and their consequences for others.

Alternately; true death that does not burden Harry with the guilt of
being solely responsible for the death of another human being.

- Ron and Hermione cast Death Curses at Voldemort at the same time
that Voldemort casts a Death Curse at Harry. Voldemort's Death Curse
once again rebounds off of Harry, and a fraction of a second later
when Voldemort is in the twighlight between physical-mort and
vapor-mort, he is hit by Ron and Hermione's curses, the combined force
of which destroys him completely, thoroughly, and forever.

- Substitute Neville for Ron and Hermione.

- Substitute Dumbledore, or Lupin, or Snape, or Dobby, or a Weasley,
or any one of a number of other characters for Ron and Hermione.

Alternately; the old switch-a-roo -

I have a theory, stated here many times; short version, that when
either Voldemort or Harry die, the other becomes vulnerable. By one of
many possible happenstances, Harry dies by some definition, during
that techincal death, Voldemort becomes vulnerable and is defeated by
someone else. After which, Harry is revived from his technical but not
true death, and everyone goes to McDonald's to celebrate.

This allows the prophecy to be fulfilled; Harry dies (by some
definition), his death allows Voldemort to live, but that life is a
mortal life which makes him vulnerable. Bada-Bing Bada-Boom; Voldie is
killed. ...drop the curtain, turn out the lights, that's a wrap.

My point, once again, is that there is death then again there is
death; the two not necessarily being the same.

There are ways the prophecy can be fulfilled without Harry having to
boldly, coldly, bluntly, and with calculated intent directly kill
Voldemort.


Things I think are very UNlikely to happen-

- The whole series is resolved by some bizarre application of time
travel. Been there, done that. I could see time travel re-appearing in
some secondary way, but JKR has played that card, and to use it as the
resolution to the whole series would be a monumental cop-out.

- It was all a dream. Harry wakes up from a fantastic dream at age 11
and finds a Hogwarts letter waiting in the mail box.

- (this was my idea) Harry the writer; JKR's fictional alter ego.
Harry is 18, and 'of age' in the muggle world. The Dursleys have done
their part, they took care of orphan Harry, but now that he is of age,
it's time for him to get the hell out. Just as Harry pens the last
line the manuscript he has been working on all these years, the last
line which ends with the world 'scar', Vernon knocks on the door and
tells Harry it's time to go. Harry smiles with satisfaction as he pack
up his manuscript. Walks away without looking back and heads for
London, where he sells his book ('The Adventures of a Boy Wizard') to
a publisher, and become a successful author of a seven book series.

Ignoring these last few items, the point is that there are way to
defeat and utterly destroy Voldemort without Harry having to kill anyone.

Just a thought.

bboy_mn