Use of Madam - Madam Bones

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 87056

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Greil" <amyg at b...> wrote:
> Lauri said:
> 
> Madam is the female equivalent of Mister, which does not distinguish 
> between married and unmarried men. ...  Madam Pomfrey is not a 
> Professor, apparently neither is Madam Hooch, so they need *some* 
> sort of title of respect.
> 
> 
> Now Amy:
> 
> But Moody, Lockhart, Lupin and Umbridge are called "Professor" once 
> they begin teaching at Hogwarts, and we have no evidence that they 
> are the recipient of any kind of teaching degree.  So if "Professor"
> is simply a title of respect shown to any teacher, shouldn't Hooch,
> Hagrid and Firenz also be Professors? 


bboy_mn:

This 'professor' thing is very confusing. When we first discussed it
(eons ago), it seemed that only people with academic credentials or at
least academic credibility were called 'Professor'. But now it has
expanded a bit.

Lockhart is a well known authority on a wide range of magic. True he
is a fake but a vast majority of people don't know that. He has an
Order of Merlin-Third Class and he is a member (honorary) of the Dark
Forces League. Plus that author of several authoritative books on
various fields of magic. So, these could be the credentials that
afford him the respectful title of Professor. 

On the other hand, Umbridge is called professor. We don't know of any
special knowledge or academic expertise, but she certainly holds a
high position in the government, so she may have some experience that
affords her the authority to be called a professor. We don't really know.

You may have missed it, but Hagrid is called professor in OoP. 

"Quite correct," said Professor Grubbly-Plank, hands behind her back
and bouncing on the balls of her feet. "I am a substitute teacher
standing in for Professor Hagrid." 

I think everyone including Hagrid, is so used to and comfortable with
just calling Hagrid 'Hagrid' that it gets overlooked. I also don't
think that Hagrid has had much confidence in his abilities until
recently, so I don't think he really feels like he deserves to be
called 'Professor'. But I think as years go by, and he hits his
stride, and becomes a more competent teacher, student will gradually
start calling him Professor by default.

Perhaps, it is routine to call a teacher of an academic subject
'professor' whether they have earned a formal professorship or not.
That seems to be the way the story is going. But that does leave a few
thinkg unexplained. Professor R. J. Lupin's case has his name and the
title 'professor' on it BEFORE he gets to Hogwarts. Of course, he
could have earned an academic title of Professor that is independant
of his job at Hogwarts. Or it could be his father's old briefcase;
Professor Randolf Jerome Lupin. 

I think that Madam Hooche is NOT called a professor because she does
not teach an academic subject; she teaches a skill that is somewhat
mechanical. She is like a basketball coach. You don't need any special
magic to fly a broom, but you do need some basic functional skills. I
guess you could say she is more of an instructor than a teacher.

I'm not sure I have a point here other than to agree that it seems
like it is routine for students to address teacher of academic
subjects as 'professor' even if they don't have a 'sheep skin' to back
it up. 


> Amy continues:
>
> Since there is apparently no other wizarding school in Britain, and 
> no evidence for wizard primary schools, it seems silly that there
> would be a teacher training program somewhere turning out 
> "Professors" with limited job prospects.  
> 

bboy_mn:
Anyone who has been around a while knows my theory on this subject. I
believe that it is possible that there are private academic review
committees that review research and approve the academic skills and
achievements of wizards and witches. For example, the Internation
Confederation of Wizards could have an academic review committee that
certifies witches and wizards at various skill levels; Professoriate,
Doctoriate, Masters, etc.... If one present sufficient published
papers on academic study or research to the committee, one could
become a Doctor of Tranfiguration. 

JKR has already said that there are no universities, but I think this
model of private review of independant study does have some historical
merit. Afteral there is no real overseeing authority that validates
muggle Bachelor, Master, PHD degrees in the muggle world. The only
thing that gives value to a degree from Harvard is the reputation of
the school. So the Harvard review commitees have the sole and full
authority to set any standard and give out degrees to anyone they
want, and we have no choice but to accept their word for it.


> Amy concludes:
>
> Oh, and then there's Madame Maxine, who IS apparently a teacher and
headmistress, but who is addressed by her first name like she is a
nursery school teacher!
> 
> I can't figure out if this is just an oversight on JKR's part or an
indication of the shoddy nature of education in the WW!
> 
> ---Amy

bboy_mn:

Madam Maxime is a special case. First Maxime and Dumbledore are
contemporaries, they have equal status, so it is unlikely that they
would use a school framework of formal address. The first mention of
Madam Maxime is by Dumbledore who address her as such. She responds by
simple saying, 'Dumbly-dorr'; not professor, or headmaster, or mister.

I can't recall if I every heard one of Madam Maxime's students address
her, but even it the refer to her as Madam, that may be a cultural
thing. They are operating under the rule of a culture differant that
Hogwarts.

Again, not sure I had a real solid point to make, just adding some
more logs to the fire.

bboy_mn