Potters as their own Secret Keepers?

[KathyK]

No: HPFGUIDX 87101

Arya wrote: 
 
>Hmm, I wonder why Dumbledore doesn't just put the content of the 
prophecy  under the Fidelius Charm?  Can the secret of the charm 
be "gleaned" from  one using Legilimency?  Must the secret be 
willingly given?<

KathyK:

I go back and forth as to whether or not something protected by the 
Fidelius Charm can actually be discovered by Legilimency.  Today I 
am going with no.  Tomorrow may bring a different answer.  I don't 
know much at all about Legilimency at all (who does, really?) having 
missed many a thread on the subject.  I prefer to take it as Snape 
describes it in Harry's Occlumency lessons.  It makes things less 
sticky, IMO.  

OoP, US 530, Occlumency:

"The mind is not a book, to be opened at will and examined at 
leisure.  Thoughts are not etched on the inside of skulls, to be 
perused by an invader.  The mind is a complex and many-layered 
thing, Potter..."

He continues:

"It is true, however, that those who have mastered Legilimency are 
able, under certain conditions, to delve into the minds of their 
victims and to interpret their findings correctly.  The Dark Lord, 
for instance, almost always  knows when somebody is lying to him."

A Legilimens is not able to simply open up a person's mind, rattle 
around, and take what's valuable.  Sometimes a Legilimens is able to 
get the desired information, but only if he/she can correctly 
interpret what they discover.  So it's not as easy as Voldemort 
going to Peter Pettigrew (this is just an example, mind you), 
digging around his mind until he found what he was after.  No, 
Voldemort would have to find those "certain conditions" Snape talks 
of, invade Peter's mind under those conditions, and be able to 
figure out what he's looking for from a whole mess of random things 
that could be coming at him.  Voldemort, for instance, may be 
skilled in Legilimency and he may be able to tell when a person is 
lying to him, but he isn't able to read someone's mind in the sense 
that he'd have to in order to find a particular tidbit of 
information he's looking for.  

As for the second point, I do believe the Secret-Keeper must 
willingly give away the secret.  For this I point to Flitwick in 
PoA, US 205, The Marauder's Map:

"The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-
Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find--unless, of course, the 
Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it."

The key phrases in this quote are "impossible to find" and "Secret-
Keeper chooses."  I think the secret hidden inside a single, living 
soul being impossible to find is pretty straightforward.  AFAIK, 
Legilimency as a skill is not some unknown to the general WW--at 
least, I hope it's not, so I suppose I'll say I assume it's 
something known--and therefore is included in the Fidelius Charm 
business.  Flitwick said "impossible," not "nearly impossible" 
or "very difficult."  

The other key phrase is the kicker.  The Secret is revealed to 
others only if the Secret-Keeper *chooses* to tell someone.  Now, I 
know this is not hard fact and there are many questions, such 
as, "If the Secret was so well hidden that only the Secret-Keeper 
making the choice to give it away works, then why not stick with 
Sirius?  Wouldn't he have taken it to the grave with him rather than 
betray his best friend?"  Or there's, "Well Kathy, that's all well 
and good, but explain to me how anyone other than LV found the 
Potters house, the Potters, and most especially Harry if this secret 
is so secret that it's impossible to find unless the secret-keeper 
chooses to tell another?"  

The answer to the first is, I'm as confused as the next reader about 
Secret-Keeping, I just love to talk about it anytime I have the 
opportunity.  I have no idea why it was necessary to switch to 
Sirius.  Unless, the Secret-Keeper can be compelled under Imperius 
to reveal the information.  But that steps all over the failsafe-
ness of the Fidelius that I just went to such care to illustrate.  
But I don't really believe it can be revealed under the influence of 
the Imperius Curse.  Maybe they just wanted to be cautious and 
perhaps even Sirius has his limits as to what he can handle before 
he'd give in.  But then again, why Peter?  Because Voldemort would 
never even think to go after him for that sort of information, or so 
they thought?

The answer to the second is that it seems that when the object of 
the Fidelius (the Secret) is destroyed, whether it be person or 
thing, the charm is broken (either that or Peter told Sirius and 
Hagrid the secret--and Dumbledore, too).  Now, I have another 
question.  Were Lily and James hidden inside Peter's soul, so that 
no matter where they went, they were well hidden?  Or was it their 
location in Godric's Hollow?  Because it seems a little silly to 
hide the Potter's in their own home.  Even if Voldemort couldn't 
find *them,* if he knew where they lived, he could just destroy 
their home.  So maybe it's a combination of both the Potter's and 
their location being a part of the secret hidden inside Pettigrew.  

Despite these lingering questions, I think the most important part 
of the Fidelius eqation still remains in the Secret-Keeper choosing 
to divulge the secret within.  Especially when it comes to the issue 
of Legilimency.  Presumably, a Legilimens wanting a secret protected 
by Fidelius would be invading a Secret-Keeper's mind to find 
something someone doesn't want him/her to know.  Otherwise, the 
Secret-Keeper would just tell that person.  The Secret-Keeper is not 
choosing to tell the Legilimens the secret.  Therefore, the secret 
cannot be learned in that fashion.

Arya:

>I admit, I was very surprised it could be passed on by means of a 
note (such as Harry reads to be able to see Grimmauld Place).  What 
if the note was lost--could anyone who read it, see it then? It sure 
seems like it.  It seems odd that the  secret on that note was "The 
HQ of the Order of the Phoenix may be found at  Number 12..."--why 
should that prevent Harry from *seeing* the house when  he didn't 
know he was looking for the HQ of the OotP, he just needed to see 
where they were going.   Hmmm....<

KathyK:

Arya, I have to thank you.  Seeing you wonder about the possible 
dangers attached to writing down such a secret finally helped me to 
see an answer to this problem.  It's so simple...The piece of paper 
with the location of the Order of the Phoenix was *bewitched* to 
look blank or look like something else.  Here, let me illustrate 
from canon:

OoP, US 582, Seen and Unforeseen:

"The pages carrying Harry's interview had been bewitched to resemble 
extracts from textbooks if anyone but themselves read it, or else 
wiped magically blank until they wanted to peruse it again."

The piece of paper was designed so that *only Harry* could read it.  
If it fell into the wrong hands, all they'd find is Moody's grocery 
list or something equally mundane, much like portkeys are designed 
to deter muggles from getting curious.  And perhaps it had an even 
better charm on it than the students' copies of _The Quibbler_.  
Maybe it was truly wiped blank if anyone else other than it's 
intended recipient read the paper.  

Arya:

>It seems odd that the  secret on that note was "The HQ of the Order 
of the Phoenix may be found at  Number 12..."--why should that 
prevent Harry from *seeing* the house when  he didn't know he was 
looking for the HQ of the OotP, he just needed to see where they 
were going.   Hmmm....<

KathyK:

Maybe the secret involves both the actual physical location of 12 
Grimmauld Place as well as it housing the Order headquarters?

KathyK, who is now wondering what actually might show up on Moody's 
grocery list