[HPforGrownups] The Sorting Hat

[Kathryn Cawte]

No: HPFGUIDX 87321

*sigh* I could save myself a lot of effort you know if I just changed my sig
to "Kneasy I disagree with everything you say" ;) Because I do seem to spend
a lot of time doing that - and here we go again. I guess I should for the
sake of clarity start with the fact that I consider myself a Slytherin
(although my ambition does have limits - I don't want to rule the world,
people try and kill you if you do that, I want to be the power behind the
throne, telling the target uh I mean leader what to do <eg>)

Kneasy

> Interesting artifact, that Sorting Hat.
> It turns up in a post occasionally, usually as a source of quotes or
> explication, but no-one so far as I can recall has  ever questioned the
> veracity of the words attributed to it.
>

K

Well I guess it depends how sentient it is as to whether or not it has the
ability to lie (or I guess the ability to tell the truth since it could have
been 'programmed' to lie through its metaphorical teeth).  I've always
assumed that it has enough intelligence to try and interpret the original
wishes of the founders as well as it can, but no more than that - however
after OoP I'm beginning to wonder.

Kneasy
> But, as you  may  have guessed, I've a very suspicious nature and I
> have a theory that it may have been got at.
>
K

You? Suspicious and cynical? Wow, I mean I'm stunned, I'd never have guessed
;)

Kneasy
> OK, what are the characteristics of the members of the various Houses
> at Hogwarts?
>
> Gryffindor - Brave, courageous
>
> Slytherin -  Ambitious, and not overly scrupulous about achieving their
> ambitions
>
> Ravenclaw - clever, clever, clever
>
> Hufflepuffs - loyal and apparently not too bright; could even be the
> remedial class
>
K

OK I have a problem with some of your definitions.

Gryffindor - brave, courageous. Yes I agree with this - although I wish some
people would realise that you can be a risk-taking bad to the bone wizard
and still qualify for Gryffindor under this definition.

Slytherin - Ambitios, cunning, and I'm not sure there shouldn't be some
element of loyalty here, the hat does say. "perhaps in Slytherin you'll find
your real frineds". Also let's not forget that Salazar wanted it to be a
house of purebloods even if the hat doesn't *always* follow that.

Ravenclaw - intelligent and studious.

Hufflepuffs - loyal and hardworking. I dislike this assumption that
Hufflepuffs are stupid. Neither of the qualities that Puffs are associated
with imply a basic lack of intelligence. If the dumb kids ended up in
Hufflepuff Draco would be missing a couple of bodyguards - actually if I
were him I'd be hoping that my comments about loyalty do apply because I
don't think they're bright enough to be cunning and if they're not loyal
either he could be in trouble.


Kneasy
> By my reckoning Hermione should be in Ravenclaw and I'm not the only
> one. She's questioned in canon about  why she's not  in Ravenclaw, but
> it all  gets glossed over with a throw-away remark. (Is there such a
> thing from JKR?). She's obviously one of the star pupils; so why is she
> in Gryffindor?
> Neville is a Hufflepuff to the bone; poor scholar, not naturally
> adventurous, basically good and modest. And he sticks with his friends.
> Harry would be in Slytherin if the Hat  had had its way, and why didn't
> the Hat have it's way? Is it in the  habit of taking seriously the
> uninformed wishes of eleven year olds? Hardly likely; that'd be a
> recipe for chaos.
>
K

Well I don't think you can set up four pigeonholes and expect all the kids
to fit perfectly into any one of them. Hermione is certaily brave as well as
intelligent and Neville is one of the most courageous characters in the
books, whereas Harry never struck me as particularly brave (because he never
seems scared of anything or to appreciate the danger he's in most of the
time, if you don't recognize danger then it's difficult to actually be
brave. Doing something you don't know is dangerous isn't brave - stupid
possibly - but not brave). And remember the first time we really get to see
Neville's bravery he is standing up to the Trio not loyally following them
around. Harry on the other hand is *incredibly* loyal - possibly the hat
felt he wasn't hardworking enough to qualify for Hufflepuff.

 Kneasy
> A reading of the characters and their attitudes might  give us:
>
> James - Gryffindor.  Up for anything;  rash; needed reining in.
>
> Sirius -  Slytherin. Brought up as a Black. Say no more.
>
> Remus -  Ravenclaw. Clever enough to become Professor Lupin.
>
> Peter - Hufflepuff. The slow one. Always lagging behind the others.
>

K

Sometimes I wonder if I'm reading different books to everyone else.

James - yeah I think you're spot on with him.

Sirius - why Slytherin? the Hat judges (or is supposed to) on the
personality of the child not their family background. Sirius has never shown
any sign of being cunning at all and doesn't seem terribly ambitious.
Brave - yes without doubt. Also intelligent and loyal. Frankly if I had to
put Sirius in a house other than Gryffindor I'd make him a Hufflepuff.
Loyalty is one of his defining characteristics - he even stresses that he
feels Peter should have died rather than betray his friends like he himself
would have.

Remus - definitely intelligent, I see him sort of as the hermione of the
original group, but I think his main characteristic would have to be his
fight against the wolf and against people's prejudices. The strength and
courage to survive as a werewolf, to survive the death and betrayal of his
only close friends, to come back to a place which must be full of memories
for him to teach and to protect Harry, to confront his former best friend
*alone* when he thought he was a murderer etc.

Peter - he's part Gryffindor, part Slytherin. Obviously cunning to have
managed to spy on his friends for Voldemort for over a year, to not give
himself away when James made him secret keeper and practically handed
himself and his family over to Peter on a silver platter, to come up with an
escape plan which turned Sirius into a traitor and himself into a hero, but
equally brave in order to spy on them for a year, to take the risk that they
could catch him or he could fail Voldemort (who seems not to like failure)
needs nerves of steel. But Hufflepuff? The house associated with *loyalty*,
Peter? The Traitor? Nope, no way on earth!

Kneasy
> The closeness of their friendship makes one suspect that they were all
> in  the same House. It's intriguing that confirmation is so hard to
> find - why? But if they were all in the same House the alliance  didn't
> survive into adulthood. It all fell apart with betrayal and rash
> actions.
>
K

Peter seems to have been part of the group because he was their audience, he
was there to tell (certainly James and Sirius - not sure about Remus) them
how clever they were and how funny and how wonderful, perhaps his pride
couldn't take it any more and he wanted to show them how clever *he* was. He
wanted the last thing James knew to be that 'poor little Peter' was working
for Voldemort that, in effect 'poor pathetic Peter' had bested him, bested
all of them, and killed him and his family. And that image of him that they
all had is the reason for the mistrust amongst the others - after all James
couldn't be betraying himself, Peter wasn't even worthy of consideration as
the spy and Remus and Sirius each knew that they were innocent so they would
have felt they had no choice but to suspect the other - and since Peter had
been spying on them for a year he had plenty of time to play on their fears.

I think the hat tries to put children in the House they fit best but most
children have aspects of two or more houses so he also tries to put them in
the house where they will do best. If Hermione had been a ravenclaw she'd
probably have lived in the library and retreated into books without anyone
thinking that was wrong and possibly never have had the chance to make any
real friends, not friendships as deep as she has with Ron and Harry - I'm
not saying that Ravenclaws can't be friends, just that with Hermione's
personality and her inclination to turn to books for everything she might
have ended up as a bit of a loner without the boys to drag her into the real
world. Given Harry's view of Slytherin, especially since one of them killed
his parents, he would probably have resented being put in that house and
might well not have made friends there either.

K