[HPforGrownups] Re: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?)

[Campbell, Anne-TMC-Rcvg]

No: HPFGUIDX 87730

> " Alla" wrote:
> 
Eh? No matter how hard Snape's job is it is nothing in comparison 
with the bullet Harry is supposed to take for the whole wisarding 
world - to battle Voldy (and Snape will be included in that) 
 
Um....have you paid attention to what DE do to people? Torture, both physical and magical. Things such as beatings, taking people apart piece by piece, using Crucio until the victim turns mad (ALA Neville's parents). They often go after the victims familys and do the same to them....the list goes on. It's only hinted at in examples given by Moody and other Order members, but Snape is in real, mortal danger here. Somehow, he has to balance what he IS (Remember--as far as we all know, by cannon rules--he is a Dumbledore supporter), and what he needs to be for Voldemort, Lucius and the other Death Eaters not to suspect him (IE: A true-blooded, Muggle and Mudblood hating, just as vicious as they are, Death Eater). And somehow, he has to do all this WITHOUT seeming to have lost his nerve in the DE community or getting found out by the same, and yet still remain 'good' enough that he doesn't over-step the line and become an enemy of the Order once more (and therefor thrown out and/or handed over to Azkaban--a fate worse then death should some Dementors remain there). And yeah, he doesn't have to worry about the DE adults at the school...but you know, there's always Draco, who tells his father everything that goes on at the school. And although no others are mentioned, no doubt, in Slytherin at least, there are other DE children who would no doubt run and tell thier parents as well should Severus Snape 'go bad' as far as the DE community is concerned..
 
And the punishments will be worse for him if he's found out. Becuase, quite frankly, Old Voldy is the WORST of tyrants--and no tyrant likes to be betrayed. They tend to get very vindictive and very nasty very quickly. Not to mention, he will need to make an example of Sev--not only to assage his own outrage, but to keep the other DE in line and keep them from getting brave enough to get any ideas of thier own. He won't be above seeing just how far he can push Severus torture wise before he finally deigns to let the Professor die in order to reach that goal. Granted, that won't save the wizarding world--but it is still a valid 'bullet' to consider.

 As for Harry (and this topic is already being covered), remember that the prophecy states that "One may not live while the other exists". It doesn't say "Harry must fight Voldemort in mortal combat, and one of them will die"--that's an assumption on the fans part. It would seem a reasonable conclusion, but none of us are JK Rowling, and so we havent a real clue where she's going with it all. Also consider this: Although Harry is 'featured' in this prophecy in direct conflict with Voldy...it does not negate that fact that others are also laying thier lives on the line for this 'war'--such as the Order members. Arthur Weasley almost died keeping watch over the MOM room, others HAVE died in the past fighting against Voldy--and long before Harry was on the scene. Also, remember, nine times out of ten, when Harry *has*directly dealt with Voldy--he's had help in some way, shape or form. Harry may be the visible hero....but it takes more than just him to get this whole thing going, and no doubt it will take a lot of people to end it. Harry will get the kudos, but others should get credit too...including Snape, if he manages to stay on the same side for the whole series.
 
 
It is abuse in my book . It is even abuse by your definition - 
hementally torments Harry and Neville (poor Neville I think believes 
that he can not perform well in the potions class).
Even though I live in the States now, I come from the educational 
system, which used to give the teacher MUCH more latitude in dealing 
with the students and even by that standards it is the worst kind of 
emotional abuse. 
 
 
We're talking about degrees here. We're also talking about opinions that have changed drastically over the past two decades as to what consistutes abuse, both in the states and abroad. It used to be common even in US public schools for the teachers to smack a student's knuckles with a ruler if they got out of hand (and before the turn of the century, if a teacher chose to take a student over thier knee to decipline them, no one batted an eye, including the parents). NOwadays, if a parent OR teacher looks cross-eyed at a child, and someone misinterprets it, suddenly, the child is considered abused, and a whole mess begins. If you smakc you child in public because they;re misbehaiving, and someone sees it and doesn;t like it, you cna actaully find child services on your case. The point is, things have changed drastically, and not necassarily for the better.
 
Now, as for the definiton of abuse...let me see if I can define it a bit better--and show you the degrees, using an example from the books...
 
We'll use an example from book 3 (keep in mindf guys I have the American edition, so I may be missing a few bits of info the UK books carry).
 
Alright....this was when Neville messed up his shrinking potion--this is what Snape said to him:
 
"Orange, Longbottom. Orange. Tell me, boy, does anything pentrate that thick skull of yours? Didn''t you hear me say, quite clearly, that one rat spleen was needed? Didn't I state plainly that a dash of leech juice would suffice? What do I have to do to make you understand, Longbottom?"
 
Alright....here's where it starts...and this is a typical Snape reaction to things happening in his class--it is also how he tends to relate to Harry, since this is often the tone he takes with the 'hero' of the series. It's a bit disapproving, even exasperating, from Snape's POV....and it's also things you hear, even from a 'kind' parent when a child continuosly makes the same, or the same type of mistakes. Neville is naturally nervous anyway, thanks to his 'formidable' Grandmother, who appearently also pushes him to do much better than he does--of course he;s going to turn pink and look like he;s going to cry. Even though at this stage, Snape is not really having anymore of an abusive reaction than most adults, Neville has his own ghosts to deal with that feed into his reaction to Snape, including fear and embarassment.
 
Now, arguably, Snape goes on to more abusive measures:
 
"Longbottom, at the end of this lesson, we will feed a few drops of this potion to your toad and see what happens. Perhaps that will encourage you to do it properly."
 
Okay...so now Neville has the added stress of tryong to fix his potion before its fed to Trevor. You can see where it seems like abuse...however. Snape gives Neville time to fix the potion. And although he tells Granger not to help--he knows Hermione well enough that chances are the girl will help anyway. She can't help not helping. If Snape is any judge of character (and he would have to be to have successfully been a spy for Dumbledore as long as he has been), he already knew that. And if Hermione should fail to help rectify the situation--well, there's a;ways another pocket with the quick remedy for the poison that will be running through Trevor's veins. Just because we didn't see that (because it wasn;t needed), doesn;t mean he didn't have the remedy ready if things did go wrong. 
 
Now, the abusive version of that scenario would have been more along the lines of:
 
"Obviously, Neville, you haven't a single clue of what you are doing. And although I've spent the better part of three years teaching you, you obviously are too stupid to get it. So, as a lesson--give me your toad. Now." **Gets class to gather round** "This, students, is what happens when you do not pay attention" **Feeds the unaltered potion to Trevor...who is now poisoned, and may even die. Does nothing to reverse the potions effects and leaves the ailing/dying toad with Neville** "No grade for you, Longbottom, unless you cna somehow conjure up a ressurection draught by the end of class" *Smiles nastily* "...Oh, and 20 points to Gryffindor for having such an uneducatable dolt in thier House..."
 
*THAT* my friend, is abuse. Although Snape is abrasive, sharp tongued, and snarky, he still gave Neville the chance (even if it was under the table). To correct his mistake. It wasn't gentle, it wasn't kind, but it got the point across. There are consequences for not paying attention and letting your fears get in the way of what you're doing. It's much the same technique that the military uses in thier basic training courses. You get put down a lot, your faults are paraded for all to see, you get treated a little roughly. And you either learn ways to get around it (because your enemy, should you end up in a wartime situation, will be much, much worse then this), or you wash out.
 
Quite frankly, Harry and Neville cannot afford to wash out.Although young, they are still the targets of evil adults--and need to be able to deal with those adults in an adult manner. And Dumbledore is not teaching them how to deal with that eventuality either. As, I believe Amanda pointed out yesterday, Dumbledore, when he is around, is more often than not cast as the "kindly Grandfather"--a role, that though comforting for Harry--doesn't really help him to learn to deal with the realities of the people he is going up agianst. In fact, Dumbly often seems to present mroe questions than answers for Harry to deal with (and he even admits this at the end of book 5). By contrast, that leaves Snape to do the 'dirty' deed of showing Harry (and Neville) what it will very likely be like to deal with his former Death Eater allies. Sev knows what his former friends can do...
 
As for bullying...I don't really see it that way. When Snape goes after Harry--it is to point out his faults (Won't listen when people tell him to stay put, talks back to teachers, thinks he is above the rules and does want he wants regardless--typical teen behaivior yes--but Harry is NOT the typical teen, and has things he must do that no other teen has to deal with). Granted, those 'faults' are often what gets the job dine in each book, but it still puts Harry (and those around him) in extreme danger--a point that is badly presented by Snape, and badly recieved by Harry. But Snape doesn't swoop out of his classroom to look for Harry constantly just to put him down--he'll take advantage of a blunder done in front of him by Harry and Co., but doesn't go looking for it. Unlike Draco, who so made Ron's life a misery every step that he was on the Quddich team, that you couldn't get away from the nasty songs and snide remarks (now that's a bully)..
 
But again, it is a question of degree--and in my own experience, what Snape does is strict, a little mean, certainly Snarky....but compared to the very real abuse I grew up with--it's negligible. 
 
Anyhow....I do repsect your opinion...and looking at this, we may have to agree to disagree....;)
 
Anne


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