[HPforGrownups] Re: Harry in NEWT Potions Class? (Was: Is Snape confident?)

[Silverthorne Dragon]

No: HPFGUIDX 87762

{Alla said}

Yes, we may have to agree to disagree. I just want to make one 
comment. Snape is in danger indeed and I respect him for that, but 
may I remind you that he brought all of this on himself. 

{Anne Said}
Not all of it. He didn't ask for his father to be abusive. I doubt he wanted Potter and Company to be constantly at odds with him (and remember--Remus DOES point out that the hatred between Potter and Snape was immediate and mutual. By the same token--Rowling has not told us who struck the first blow in that little war either--the only real solid info we have about that whole mess was the memory in the pensive--which, quite honestly--puts James and Sirius in the bully role, and without provacation at that, not Severus). He certaily didn;t ask for Sirius to thoughtlessly endanger his life by telling him how to get to Lupins hiding spot during the full moon and almost get killed (And, if you take an honest look, if roles had been reversed, no one would have said James and Sirius had 'asked' for it if Snape had sent them down that tunnel--their curiosity, like Harrys now, would have been nodded off as 'perfectly natural' and within his rights.) Yes, he did join the Death Eaters--but after a youth like he had, they might have seemed a godsend (Remember, we don't know WHY he joined either--unbtil we do, assumptions are just that). For all we know, the DE, at least on the surface, were the first to treat Severus with any repsect--something he would have craved horribly.

{Alla Said}
He took this 
job to atone for his past sins and even the fact that he does it is 
great, but it is not like he joined as a spy from the beginning. It 
is reasonable assumption to make that he commited all these 
montrocities himself.

{Anne Said}
It is possible...but not cannon. Somehow, I suspect that if he had gone that far around the bend, Dumbledore would not have let him come back to the light, and certainly not in a valued and necassary, and dangerous position. He might have referred Snape to psychiatric help perhaps, even found someone to help him along...but I doubt he would have allowed Snape (or trusted him) to be part of The Order, no matter how sincere Snape seemed about repentance. There is such a thing as 'too far'. I think it more likely that Snape went to Dumbledore because he was about to be forced to do some of those very monstocities....Also, bear in mind...it takes a LOT of courage for someone to see that they're wrong and admit it (even if only to themselves and/or one or two other people), let alone do something about it. In Snapes case...he not only must have admitted he was wrong to join the DE in the first place, but he has the courage to take one of the biggest risks of all in order to appease that mistake. You can argue that he 'brought it on himself'...but he also is making himself atone for it. That takes not only courage, but the ability to alter your entire world view. And one other thing to consider...Snape was roughly the same age bracket as Harry is now when he decided to join the DE....it's rather unfair to excuse Harry some of his normal teen behaivior (such as solely blaming Snape for Sirius's death), especially when he has a whole slew of people to guide him in the right direction...and then condemn Snape, who was, from what Rowling has shown us so far, abused by his father, disliked by most of his peers, and bullied severely by James and Sirius, for making a different decision (and yes. very bad) at that same point in his life. When you see very little of 'Love' and 'Decency'--it's very hard to base your life decisions from that perspective...

{Alla Said}
Harry on the other hand did not ask for any of this, most of all to 
be the boy from prophecy, so in my mind although I give Snape due 
respect, I sympathise with Harry much more.

{Anne Said}
No, Harry did not ask for this, that I agree on. But he has an advantage in that he has so many people looking out for him, if he bothers to see it, that it's not likely he will stumble very far or for very long. Most of the teachers support him, Dumbledore keeps an eye on him, he has two very faithful friends, a secondary family in the Weasleys, and even has friends amoung other adults, such as Remus and Moody. He even has a certain popularity among kids from almost all the houses. Harry has a big destiny, and a hard one, there's no denying that, and you have to admire him for holding up as well as he does sometimes. But there will be someone there to catch him always, and he has people who honestly love and support him. He is not alone, even in his darkest hours (In fact, he seems to have this tendency of chasing off people when he's getting a bit morose and stewing in his own, sometimes distorted, veiw of the world around him). But he is human, just as Snape is. And one mistake he makes like so many people do is to judge solely from his own experiences and opinions of how life should be. Rarely have I seen Harry change his mind once he's decided what a person is like, from his POV, even if later he's given information that contradicts, even a little, what he thinks he knows about that person (Think about when Snape did his best against Quirrell to countercurse the broom,. and Harry foiudn out about it. Other then disbelief that Snape was tryong to help him...he more or less disregards the information when dealing with the Professor in later situations--he is still as rebellious and, internally at least, insulting to Snape as he ever was.). He doesn't bother to look more deeply than the fact that that person offended him, hurt his feelings, whatever...he shows very little interest in understanding why this person is treating him the way he;s being treated. The only time he DOES seem to change his opinion of someone is when they are a supposed 'friend' unveiled as an enemy (Quirrell, Crouch, etc....)

Also, it seems he honestly sometimes thinks he's the 'only one' with a terrible burden on his shoulders. It's understandable, since he is a fifteen year old boy, to feel that way, but it's not necessarily a correct assumption on his part. Because the books are mostly written from his POV, we share that opinion, having little input form the internal workings of the other characters. As the readers we are given the chance to relate to him most of all, and we see the world mostly through his eyes--which are by no means omniscient--he certainly has no clue why Dumbledore seems to have adandoned him in Book 5, but certainly starts to build a helathy resentment towards him. One he does nothing to assuge by asking, or even attempting to ask, Dumbledore, or even Lupin why Dumbledore is acting the way he does. Instead, he just lets it stew so that by the time he DOES have the chance to ask Dumbledore handed to him on a plate, he resorts to throwing a tantrum instead because he's so wound up about it....again, typcial teen behaivior...but Harry is not in a typical teen situation, and he needs to realize that (as do the readers). Hopefully, Rowling will gift him with that clarity of sight as the story progresses.

I know I feel both sympathy and pain for him and his destiny...but he is not the only one in this story who has it hard. He's just the one we see the most information on, the one whose emotions we are most in tune with, etc, because of the way the books are written. 

The point is, Both charcters have faults...and honestly, they both contribute to the situation between them. I respect them both equally for the things they have had to face in life, and I also agree both need to work, quite a bit, on thier outlook on life, even if for different reasons. They certainly need to take a break form each other and start looking at more than just the surface...but niether one is any more 'good' than the other--Harry could still very easily fall into Darkness, especially if he allows resentment for his situation and the role he is 'destined' to play to continue to grow. Snape DOES need to quit chewing so much and learn to present what he's trying to present in a different manner (Although, even if he were to politely explain his reasons for what he does, would Harry really listen...or blow him off?). Both are equally in danger, bnoth are being asked to go beyond far beyond what either of them had dreamed for themselves. Both will need strength of character to survive this intact.

The difference is that Harry's 'packaging', so to speak, is prettier (far far closer to what most people have experienced in thier lives)...and has better marketing (we know almost everything going on with him, his thoiughts, his emotions, his history, his reasoning, etc...an advantage we don;t have with Snape--what we see of Snape is through Harry's eyes, and has Harry's values and interpretations placed upon it all..).

{Alla Said}

About the abuse, we definitely have to agree to disagree.

{Anne Said}

And that's fine--I can understand where you are coming from. Not to put too fine a point on it...but unless you've experinced mental abuse, it's hard to recognize it when it really does happen, and people tend to confuse it for other things, that although unpleasant to experience, do not leave a permanent mark on the psyche (Note that Harrys actions and thoughts about himself are never altered when Snape has gotten after him. It is in fact disregarded as Snape just being a git again. Most of the children in fact tend to harbor that attitude about Snape--much the same as most adults that have suffered his tongue probably treat it. "Oh, there he is again, being a snark...we don't really need to pay him any mind...."). 

Mental abuse is also far more subtle than people realize. It will rarely make you angry--but it will certainly eat away at your self worth. The verbal fireworks you see between Harry and Snape rarely happen in a 'real' abusive situation--it's usually far more quiet and pervasive to the abusee. Which is why it's so hard to catch a 'real' case in action....until it's too late and the damage has already been done to the child. You aren't challanged in your beleifs in an abusive situation (Which gives you the chance to fight back, much as Harry does when Snape takes a swipe at his actions)--you are catagorically broken down and reduced to nothing over time and constant reminders of how worthless you really are. Again, the distinction is hard to see--unless you've lived through it. And I honestly hope that you haven't. It's a horrid, dark, evil place to be--and a situation I would not wish on my worst enemy. If you live through it, it takes years to crawl back into some semblence of sanity and self-worth...you have to learn to trust people again...and, no matter your nature, you have to learn somehow not to repeat your abusers' mistakes on someone else. It takes time, support, love...and it is never easy to understand from an outside POV. ABout the only good thing is does is teach one inner strength, and give you the knowledge of the difference between a snarky person and a truly abusive one.

**Really going to quit now, before we start up again....lol....**

And....**offers handshake and/or hug** NO offence meant, or taken. I hope we can still get aloing, even though some of our opinions are diametrically opposed...

Anne


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