Let's hear it for good old Snapey!

[uilnslcoap]

No: HPFGUIDX 87782

Kneasy said:

>> As a proto-typical boring old fart (and proud of it), I get a bit 
> exercised when Sevvy gets accused of bullying, mental abuse and 
> "lacking people skills," whatever that may mean.
> The idea that no child should be exposed to disappointment, sarcasm 
or 
> criticism seems ludicrous. That would result in pretty poor 
preparation 
> for adult life IMO.

Ahem...I sort of like Snape.  I admit that I more than sort of like 
Harry by comparison, but Harry aside, doesn't Snape's treatment of 
Neville seem over the line?  His belittling of him only confirms 
Neville's opinion (up to book five) of himself as incompetent.  You 
could attempt to argue that Snape is doing what he thinks is best for 
Neville, but I honestly do see it as abuse.  I'm fine with teachers 
who are tough on the kids, but Snape's treatment of Neville is too 
much.  He doesn't just criticize his work; he treats him like dirt in 
front of his peers, and basically calls him stupid.  A good teacher 
would want to make a student better at their subject and would 
recognize that these scare tactics are ineffective after a year or 
two.  While Snape's methods may work for most, he's a failure at his 
profession (though admittedly it's probably not his calling) where 
some students are concerned.  And I'm not particularly a fan of 
Neville, by the way.  That treatment seems awful, though.

By the way, I don't think a teacher needs to be cruel to prepare a 
student for adult life.  They're going to find out the world is a 
mean place no matter what and many of their peers are going to 
confirm the presence of "disappoint, sarcasm, or criticism" in the 
world.


> Harry is an obstreperous, obstructive, argumentative, stubborn, 
> disobedient, idle little sneak. To prove it, all Snape need do is 
> review the past behaviour of young Potter.
> He doesn't listen, he doesn't follow instructions and he seems to 
think 
> he has the right to demand justifications for complying with almost 
> everything he dislikes. Harry thinks he knows best when he patently 
> doesn't.

Agreed.  His actions even on the non-Snape front are often 
questionable, sometimes reprehensible, and usually some brand of 
irresponsible (he's also very self-centered a lot of the time)--but 
he's a child.  And it's not as though Harry hasn't proved himself 
good at heart and well-intentioned and capable of making those 
intentions into powerful actions aside from those flaws.  And Snape 
didn't know these things about Harry when he first walked in the door 
to his classroom and he STILL treated him like so much rubbish.  That 
speaks to an irrational feeling of dislike, if not more.  If Harry 
had not been his father's son, he would probably have been an average 
student that never would have attracted Snape's ire or approval.  
Harry would have thought Snape mean and greasy, but he would not have 
held him in contempt the way he does now.
 
> Harry sees Snape in personal terms only; no 
> matter how much Snape tried Harry would still have to be dragged 
> kicking and screaming to (reluctant) cooperation. Harry does not 
like 
> Snape and that is a good enough reason for stubborn resistance so 
far 
> as Harry is concerned.
> 
> Snape doesn't  much like Harry either, but I doubt if he hates him. 
> He's too intelligent for that. He knows that whatever happened with 
> James had nothing to do with Harry.  

But you yourself just said that Harry has a blind spot in logic or 
reason when it comes to Snape.  Is it so hard to believe that Snape 
might be the same way when it comes to James/Harry?  The father 
bullied him (James's conduct was utterly awful...the worst peer-to-
peer interaction so far in the series--it might cause a blind spot in 
many people).  Now the son shall surely be the embodiment of his 
progenitor (given the right set of mental combinations, it might be 
nigh on irresistible for Snape to take his revenge on a relatively 
defenseless proto-James).  And what short of hate (or at least mild 
loathing) would prompt a man to embarass an 11-year-old by asking him 
questions he can't possibly know the answers to in one of his first 
classes ever?  I'm sorry, I can't possibly ever think of that as the 
conduct of someone who is reasoning.  If the onus of the entire 
misunderstanding between these two characters  can be set on anybody 
(perhaps it can't), it's Snape.  His treatment of Harry from MINUTE 
ONE has caused that.

Again, I (sort of) like Snape, I wish he and Harry would have it out 
and let us see the interesting man sitting under all that prejudice.  
I think if one of them would just SAY SOMETHING civil to the other 
one, a whole lot might be cleared up.  Specifically, I'd like Harry 
to ask for Snape's forgiveness on the Pensieve issue and for 
something to grow from there, but we'll see.

> So when Dumbledore requests that he 
> give up his own time to tutor Harry in much-needed skills, he does 
so 
> and doesn't moan about it. Only when he sees that it is totally 
> pointless does he throw Potter out. He tried, Harry didn't. And so 
> Sirius died. But Harry will never blame himself, will he? It's 
always 
> someone else's fault.

Oh, the fault I find with Harry for looking in that Pensieve.  Oh, 
the lost progress in the Snape-Harry relations.  It seemed to me 
Harry had earned a modicum of Snape's respect and a smidgeon of his 
understanding (which says a lot for Snape because Harry didn't really 
seem to reciprocate).

But I don't know if Snape didn't whine or moan.  I'll bet he did--
once, before he recognized it was useless--and then went on.  And 
Snape simply did not have as high-minded a cause as his pupil's lack 
of effort on his mind when he threw Harry out.  He had him out as a 
gut reaction to Harry's BETRAYAL (it's like reading a diary, only 
about a thousand times worse).  That, coupled with the reinforced 
father-son similarity thanks to the memory relating to the father, 
was too much for the man.  Oddly, I think Snape's behavior towards 
Harry after the Pensieve incident reads more like embarassed than 
angry, though he is vindictive on at least one occasion.  Hermione 
clears up Harry's potion of which his one vial was broken and Snape 
uses his chance to award him no marks.  That's also the conduct of 
someone with spite on the brain.  Even if it were the proper thing to 
do as a teacher (I'm pretty sure someone with Snape's talent could 
rescue some of the concoction on the floor), Snape takes obvious 
pleasure in giving him the grade and that is wrong no matter what.

Do you really think Harry doesn't blame himself for Sirius's death 
(this is not meant to sound astounded, merely interrogative)?  I can 
see how you might, but I think Harry has a hero complex and is bound 
to consider Sirius his fault.  Dumbledore thinks he does this as 
well.  I'm not saying he doesn't blame Snape also, though.  Harry's 
got too much invested in his own hatred there to not do that.

Ah well, I guess we won't see eye-to-eye on this, but I'm interested 
in how you'll respond, Kneasy.

Devin

PS My apologies for using so many conjunctions at the beginning of 
sentences.  The son-of-two-English-teachers in me recognizes it as 
wrong, but it does keep sentences shorter and therefore readable and 
just feels right sometimes.