Let's hear it for good old Snapey!

[Talisman]

No: HPFGUIDX 87845

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" 
<dumbledore11214 at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" 
<talisman22457 at y...> 
> wrote:
> > And by the way, Snape did exactly what he was supposed to do
> vis-à-vis the Occlumency lessons.  From #80164 <snip>

Alla wrote:
 Let's pretend for a second that I am very slow, shall we? Could you 
> clarify for me what did your statement  "Snape did exacly what he 
was  supposed to during Occlumency lessons" meant?

Talisman, declining to pretend, replies:

It means exactly what it says.  If you are looking for the detailed 
aguments, please note that I previously provided references to many 
of my extant posts on this subject, which include the working out of 
DD's plans and Snape's role as his Aide-de-Camp. 

I've provided references to posts more directly relevent to your 
perceived issues, below. Beyond this, I'm not inclined to go on 
reiterating old posts.

Alla: 
> Are you saying that the real, hidden purpose of the Oclumency 
lessons was to open Harry's mind to Voldy ?

Talisman:
That would be correct, as the canonical evidence cited in my earlier 
post and references demonstrate.  This is exactly the effect the 
lessons had.

Rowling not only allows us to see this for ourselves, but 
underscores the point by having Harry, Hagrid, Ron and Hermione 
acknowledge it in turn, and then finally validates it when DD 
explains why he chose not to give Harry the lessons, himself.
> 
Alla: 
> Umm, I advise you to reread Pip's post, whom I can doubt you can 
call a Snape's hater and tell me whether you really believe that 
Snape controlled his emotions in the Pensive scene.

Talisman:
I think you need to improve your civility if you are addressing me 
directly.  

I've read Pip's post and I simply don't agree. 

I find that it is based on too narrow a reading of the scene, 
combined with Pip's subjective interpretations of Snape's feelings 
and motivations.  It does not address canon as to the effects of the 
Occlumency lessons, as experienced by Harry, observed by his 
friends, or admitted by DD.

Moreover, Pip's post does not comport with my analysis of five books 
worth of evidence that DD is in control of his "plan" and that Snape 
is doing exactly what DD wants him to do.  It specifically does not 
deal with the evidence in OoP that Occlumency was used to facilitate 
the confrontation with Voldemort or that, as a superb Occlumens, 
Snape is a wizard exceptionally skilled at controlling his emotions. 

Alla: 
> I am not denying that Snape did some many good things for Harry, 
but if you can call "Harry being almost killed while possessed by 
Voldy and being  denied  the only father figure he ever knew thanks 
for Snape stopping the lessons" world of good, then you are blinded 
by your unconditional love for this character and it is your right. 
> But kindly, very kindly I ask you - spare me this "emotional 
baggage"  crap.

Talisman:
You know Alla, I didn't direct the observation (that some poster's 
negative emotions are getting in the way of their analysis) at 
anyone in particular.  

Unfortunately, I do find that your responsive post is not only rude, 
but that it is based on an abundance of negative emotion rather than 
a literary explication that in any way addresses the canon I have 
offered.

Additionally, I think it is clear textual error to say that Harry's 
possession and Sirius's death are Snape's fault. 

This is only Harry's childish view.  It serves his interest to 
assuage his own self-loathing by projecting it on someone he can be 
comfortable hating.  Harry hates Snape, not only to relieve his 
feelings of responsibility for Sirius's death, but to vent the pain 
of his disappointment in James, on whose image a great deal of 
Harry's fragile self-esteem has become dependent.  But, Snape does 
not deserve this condemnation.

Even without exploring the bigger picture, you can find concrete 
canon for the facts that 1) DD knew the effect Occlumency lessons 
would have on Harry; 2) DD knew the Occlumency lessons weren't 
continuing; 3) DD knew Voldemort would try to lure Harry to the 
prophecy orb; 4) DD knew Sirius would go to Harry's rescue,  5) DD 
anticipated that Voldemort would possess Harry , and 6) DD hoped--
and then knew--that Harry`s heightened feelings of love for his lost 
godfather would repel Voldemort and allow DD to resume contact with 
Harry.  

I believe my post # 80164 contains canonically based arguments for 
these positions, which fit into a larger paradigm, some of which is 
laid out in the early Guilty!Dumbledore posts at ## 66983, 6740, 
etc., and Tactics & Prescience at #75836, in which I posit that DD 
was instrumental in Sirius`s death. 

I must say that I am now leaning toward an idea that demetra1225 
sent me, to the effect that Sirius acceded to this plan. 

You are free to believe anything you wish about the plots and 
characters in the HP series, but if you decide to address my 
analysis again, please bring some courtesy and canon.

Talisman,
Who always appreciates a sense of humor, too.