Let's hear it for good old Snapey!

[arrowsmithbt]

No: HPFGUIDX 87849

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "uilnslcoap" <devin.smither at y...> wrote:
> 
> Ahem...I sort of like Snape.  I admit that I more than sort of like 
> Harry by comparison, but Harry aside, doesn't Snape's treatment of 
> Neville seem over the line?  His belittling of him only confirms 
> Neville's opinion (up to book five) of himself as incompetent. 


Kneasy:
Well, objectively  Neville has been incompetent hasn't he? Why pretend 
otherwise? Admittedly he showed signs of improvement in OoP, but for
the four previous books he was about as much use as a chocolate
fire-guard. He was no damn good at anything except stuffing plants
in pots. The amazing thing is that he wasn't relegated to the back of
every class to get on with some raffia-work.

It's my  contention that Snape and DD are working hand-in-glove; not 
just in the Order but at Hogwarts too. Remember that DD allowed that
there were two possible candidates for Voldys!Bane - Harry and Neville.
Even though Harry is hot favourite for the job, the MoM still has doubts.
So both get similar treatment from Sevvy - push 'em hard, accept no
excuses, make sure they are up for whatever nasty events ensue.


Devin:
> While Snape's methods may work for most, he's a failure at his 
> profession (though admittedly it's probably not his calling) where 
> some students are concerned. 
> By the way, I don't think a teacher needs to be cruel to prepare a 
> student for adult life.  They're going to find out the world is a 
> mean place no matter what and many of their peers are going to 
> confirm the presence of "disappoint, sarcasm, or criticism" in the 
> world.
>
Kneasy:
I think Sevvy is a great teacher; not a model emulated by the modern
teaching profession, true, but very effective. Personal experiences
can be suspect and atypical, but I had at least 3 of that stripe imposing
their dictats on me at my Grammar School in the 50s. Scared stiff, I was
most of the time, but in retrospect they were the most effective of my 
school career. They didn't care if they were liked or not, what mattered
was to make a pupil reach his maximum potential. Praise was hard to
come by, scorn was frequent, but my word, they achieved some
remarkable results with some apparently mediocre students.

Cruelty, now. That's a subjective judgement. Hard, yes, but not cruel
IMO. If he wanted to be cruel, he'd have made references in class to
Frank and Alice and suggested that Neville took after them. That's cruel.
  
Devin: 
> And it's not as though Harry hasn't proved himself 
> good at heart and well-intentioned and capable of making those 
> intentions into powerful actions aside from those flaws.  And Snape 
> didn't know these things about Harry when he first walked in the door 
> to his classroom and he STILL treated him like so much rubbish.  That 
> speaks to an irrational feeling of dislike, if not more.  If Harry 
> had not been his father's son, he would probably have been an average 
> student that never would have attracted Snape's ire or approval.  
> Harry would have thought Snape mean and greasy, but he would not have 
> held him in contempt the way he does now.
>

Kneasy:
Good at heart  doesn't hack it. Being good at heart does not make a
skillfull or discriminating wizard. "The road to Hell is paved with good
intentions." Good intentions got Sirius killed.

Of course Snape treated him like rubbish from the start. What else
could he do, good Voldy supporter that he is supposed to be? Snape is
playing a part and Harry is an unwitting member of the cast. But whereas
on Harry's side the animosity is personal, deep  and real, on Snape's side
it's not. Despite all his sound and fury, how many times has Snape 
handed out a *personal* punishment to Harry? In the five years of the
books he could have made Umbridge look like a cooing dove. But he
hasn't. It's all for effect only, not genuine animus.

Snape is all too often examined in relation to Harry *only*. But that's 
not what Snape is about. Snape has more important things than Harry
on his mind, crossing Voldy and surviving probably  being foremost.
Snape wants Voldy brought down, probably for personal reasons. To
do this he puts himself in the firing line. Harry is incidental to his main
activities in doing a job that probably no-one else can do. For years
he has maintained his contacts with the DEs, appearing supportive.
These are the type that as a good Slytherin would be his natural friends
and allies, yet he is betraying them while presenting a front they can 
believe. He's got more than Harry's feelings to worry about. In fact,
upsetting Harry probably helps. But I can't accept that he hates Harry;
all too often he's been there to pull Harry's chestnuts out of the fire,
not expecting thanks, understanding or appreciation and not throwing 
it back into Harry's teeth and calling him an ungrateful wretch - which
would be justified, the way Harry behaves. No, he's intelligent and
mature enough to know the difference between James and Harry.
 
Devin: 
> Again, I (sort of) like Snape, I wish he and Harry would have it out 
> and let us see the interesting man sitting under all that prejudice.  
> I think if one of them would just SAY SOMETHING civil to the other 
> one, a whole lot might be cleared up.  Specifically, I'd like Harry 
> to ask for Snape's forgiveness on the Pensieve issue and for 
> something to grow from there, but we'll see.
> 
Kneasy:
I  fear the plot is set for Harry to continue mis-understand Snape
until it's too late to make amends, 'cos I don't think Sevvy will be
around at the end of the series. Harry will regret missed opportunities
and Snape won't give a damn, no matter where he ends up.

Devin: 
> Oh, the fault I find with Harry for looking in that Pensieve.  Oh, 
> the lost progress in the Snape-Harry relations.  It seemed to me 
> Harry had earned a modicum of Snape's respect and a smidgeon of his 
> understanding (which says a lot for Snape because Harry didn't really 
> seem to reciprocate).
>
Kneasy:
Tut. None of this sloppy, wistful, wishful thinking, please.
Much more fun the way it is and it might get better yet. I hum with
satisfaction at the progress of Harry towards full Slytherin mode.
He seems to be becoming a really nasty piece of work, for which
I'm grateful. Pretty soon he could do something really horrible.
I keep  remembering my theory that although Harry might be
the one to bring down Voldemort, the Prophecy did not specify or
predict that he be 'good', just his equal. Oh, yes please!

 Devin:
> Hermione 
> clears up Harry's potion of which his one vial was broken and Snape 
> uses his chance to award him no marks.  That's also the conduct of 
> someone with spite on the brain.  Even if it were the proper thing to 
> do as a teacher (I'm pretty sure someone with Snape's talent could 
> rescue some of the concoction on the floor), Snape takes obvious 
> pleasure in giving him the grade and that is wrong no matter what.
> 

Kneasy:
Reality rules. In real life no product from a practical exam would 
result in no marks too. So why aren't you blaming Hermione for
interferring instead of blaming Snape? Snape didn't cock it up, it
was a combination of Harry and Hermione.

Devin: 
> Do you really think Harry doesn't blame himself for Sirius's death 
> (this is not meant to sound astounded, merely interrogative)?  I can 
> see how you might, but I think Harry has a hero complex and is bound 
> to consider Sirius his fault.  Dumbledore thinks he does this as 
> well.  I'm not saying he doesn't blame Snape also, though.  Harry's 
> got too much invested in his own hatred there to not do that.
>
Kneasy:
Harry will do what most us would do in similar circumstances. He'll
rationalise - "Yes, I  shouldn't have done that, BUT..."
Someone else will always be the main culprit because they should have
realised what the situation was and didn't prevent it from going
pear-shaped *after* Harry had made his mistakes.

 Devin
> PS My apologies for using so many conjunctions at the beginning of 
> sentences.  The son-of-two-English-teachers in me recognizes it as 
> wrong, but it does keep sentences shorter and therefore readable and 
> just feels right sometimes.

Kneasy:
I concur. Wordflow is more appreciated than strict grammar. Otherwise
you can end up with the example given by Churchill - "Ending a sentence
with a preposition is something up with which I will not put."