SHIP: The Problem with Reading R/H in GOF

Tue Feb 4 03:22:58 UTC 2003

No: HPFGUIDX 51570

Look. . . 

er. . . 

Sorry to bring this back up again. 

But.

I was searching the HPfGU messages for "SHIP R/H" to try and read 
some more on the history of this debate, and I've found out two 
things:

1. We talk about this a lot.

2. Angua recently posted a message in which she wrote this--which I 
somehow missed at the time--

>Penny wrote: 
>> Actually, you might avoid a friend's eye if you knew he had 
>>romantic feelings for you, whether you return those feelings or 
>>not. If she *does* return his feelings, then your analysis is fine. 
>>If she doesn't, she could just as easily be avoiding his eye 
>>because it makes her uncomfortable knowing how he feels and knowing 
>>that *eventually* she'll have to let him down. 

>*You* might. I wouldn't. I would look him straight in the eye and 
>tell him about Krum, giving him the bad news as soon as possible. I 
>would *never* act like Hermione does, and refuse to tell him whether 
>or not I had accepted Krum's invitation, leaving him in suspense for 
>months. If Hermione knows Ron likes her and doesn't like him, I 
>think that is cruel. 

>Of course, if she likes him and is frustrated because he won't admit 
>he likes her, I don't think it's cruel at all, but perfectly 
>understandable. :)

And I just have to respond to this.

And I just have to ask: "Angua, do you really *read* Hermione like 
that?"

Because I can't even *imagine* Hermione being able to tell Ron. Not 
the Hermione that I've always read her as, anyway.

Here's how I see the situation.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

1. 

Hermione knows that Ron likes her. But she doesn't have any idea of 
this until the Yule Ball. 

--------

Hermione came over and sat down in Parvati's empty chair. She was a 
bit pink in the face from dancing.

"Hi," said Harry. Ron didn't say anything.

"It's hot, isn't it?" said Hermione, fanning herself with her 
hand. "Viktor's just gone to get some drinks." 

Ron gave her a withering look. "*Viktor?* he said. "Hasn't he asked 
you to call him *Vicky* yet?"

Hermione looked at him in surprise. "What's up with you?" she said.

If you don't know," said Ron scathingly, "I'm not going to tell you."

Hermione stared at him, then at Harry, who shrugged.

--------

Okay, the way I've *always* read this scene (and just so's you know, 
I was once, albeit very casually, R/H) is that none of the Trio has a 
clue what is going on. 

Hermione has been dancing with Viktor, and apparently having quite a 
decent time. He leaves her briefly to get her and himself a drink, so 
she walks over to where her two best friends are sitting, to sit down 
and just say hi. 

Harry says hi, she just makes a couple of off-hand chatty comments, 
the way she always *would* to Harry and Ron, clearly not expecting 
much more than a brief check-in with her friends. 

Ron gives her a withering look, and says something weird and 
obviously hostile.

Hermione "looked at him in surprise" because she is *surprised.* She 
doesn't know why he seems to be upset. She then asks "What's up with 
you?" She doesn't snap it, or get hot, or irritated. She just "said." 
She doesn't ask it with any particular degree of concern--at least 
not that's indicated--because she simply doesn't have a clue. I've 
always read her state of mind here as being something like: "Well, 
that's weird." 

Then this: "If you don't know," said Ron scathingly, "I'm not going 
to tell you."

Now, I've always found this line to be hilarious, because, of course, 
*Ron* doesn't have any idea what's up with him. He is behaving in a 
mystifying way, then acts like it's her fault when she's mystified, 
then gives his scathingly evasive response at least *in part* to hide 
the fact that he's mystified too. "I'm not going to tell you--" 
*because I don't know, either.*

Then Hermione stares at him--as in, "Huh?"--and then she stares at 
Harry--as in "Do *you* have any idea what he's on about?"--and then 
Harry shrugs--as in "Nope. Beats me too." 

Then Ron gets into his fraternizing with the enemy charge. 

This takes Hermione by complete shock, as is evidenced by the fact 
that she replies "after a moment." This is just completely out of the 
blue for her; that's why she's so shocked. 

And when she does reply, she still doesn't seem to have cottoned on 
that he likes her: Ron's already made his "Vicky" crack; he's just 
made it patently clear that he has a real *problem* with her going 
with Krum. But she does not blush, she doesn't avoid his eye--she 
hasn't even really gotten angry yet. Or at least, I've always read 
the tone of her response to be more incredulous than angry.

--------

Hermione's mouth fell open. 

"Don't be so stupid!" she said after a moment. "The *enemy!*  
Honestly--who was the one who was all excited when they saw him 
arrive? Who was the one who wanted his autograph? Who's got a model 
of him up in their dormitory?"

------

Now, if she knew he liked her, I absolutely cannot imagine her making 
this response. 

First of all, she *still* isn't being described as being unusually 
emotionally distressed in any way. She is *surprised.* As many R/Hers 
have *correctly* noted in the past (in re Harry's jaw dropping when 
he sees Hermione in the dress robes), a gape, in the Potterverse, 
tends to be indicative of surprise. 

If she knew he liked her, why would she be surprised? She might 
certainly be angry, but I don't see why she would be surprised. Or 
confused.

And I *definitely* don't see why she would just *answer* his 
fraternizing charge in such a direct way. 

Because, basically, her response could be boiled down to the 
words: "*You're* the one who's always been nuts over Krum--so why are 
you mad at my going to a ball with him?" 

That is the implied question here--and I cannot imagine Hermione 
implying that question *if she already knew the answer.*

I mean, if she doesn't know what Ron's problem is, then her response 
to his charge is simply a self-defense against a ridiculous charge.

If she *does* know what his problem is, then what does that make her 
response?

An attempt to make him state his *real* problem? A *manouver?*

Because that I just can't buy. I honestly can't see Hermione trying 
to make a boy confess to that. I don't think that she would be 
comfortable with the idea of being "liked." I don't think she'd know 
how to handle it. 

I don't think she's trying to hasten that day. 

Here's why: I don't think that Hermione is feminine enough to be 
comfortable with, well, being female. Not yet.

I mean, think about Hermione for a minute: she has no girl friends, 
she is *extremely* bookish, she is incredibly intellectually 
oriented, she is plain, she is the kind of girl who doesn't bother 
with the Sleek-Easy because it's too much trouble, she has never had 
a boy friend. (And she is only 14, and Rowling's world is much more 
culturally conservative than ours is--so that it's not normal for a 
fourteen year old girl to be as savvy about boys as she would be in 
our world, anyway. It's almost, culturally, as if it was set in the 
time of E. Nesbit's books--say early 1900s.)

If that kind of girl had any clue that one of her best friends was in 
love/like with her, she would be mortified. Even if she was in 
love/like with him too, she would be mortified. '

She would just have no idea what to *do* about it. 

So I cannot read her response here--even if the text *didn't* 
describe her as being "surprised"--as any kind of attempt to provoke 
Ron into telling the truth. 

That's just not Hermione. 

So I don't think she knew he liked her. I also, btw, don't think 
she'd given much consideration to liking *him*; if she had, she would 
have wondered if he *could* like her, and she would have cottoned on 
much more quickly to what his problem was, and she would have been 
embarrassed. 

Not incredulous. 

She is totally in the dark. 

Now Ron asks her when Viktor asked her to go. I'm going to snip again 
here, because I think it's interesting.

--------

Ron chose to ignore this. "I s'pose he asked you to come with him 
while you were both in the library?"

"Yes, he did," said Hermione, the pink patches on her cheeks glowing 
more brightly. "So what?"

--------

*Now* she is embarrassed. *Now* it mentions her cheeks pinking. (They 
were originally pink because of the dancing--this is the first time 
it mentions them getting *pinker*; the first time they change colour 
*as a result of the conversation.*) 

*Now,* of course, she is also having to talk about Viktor--not in a 
casual "Oh, he's getting drinks" and not as a "You liked him too!"--
but as in "Viktor and me." As in, her relationship with Viktor. As 
in, his asking her out. As in, her having to think about being asked 
to go with a boy. 

As in, mortifying. To a girl like Hermione. 

So now she blushes. But, as Ebony has brilliantly detailed elsewhere, 
she is blushing for Krum. Or rather, for herself; she isn't 
comfortable with being a girl yet, and so she blushes when she's 
asked questions like this. As my fellow H/Hers have said, I really do 
think she'd blush like this if Ginny asked her the same thing. 

Now things get rather nasty. 

Hermione gets further embarrassed about her date with Krum--and if 
you want more implication that she's blushing *about Krum,* look at 
this sentence:

"If you *really* want to know, he--he said he'd been coming up o the 
library every day to try and talk to me, but he hadn't been able to 
pluck up the courage!"

Look at that "he--he." That's what trips her up. Krum. The Boy Who 
Asked Her Out. That's the only reason she's blushing. 

Then she turns hot pink.

Then Ron says, apparently in a nasty tone of voice (since Harry 
applies that word to it): "Yeah, well--that's his story."

Then, when Hermione asks for clarification, Ron implies that Krum is 
just using her, and that she's a dope who's falling for it.

Then Hermione--who, remember, is already in some emotional distress 
by this point, and a bright shade of pink, and generally probably 
about ready to crawl under the table--looks as if she's been slapped, 
and her voice quivers.

So, to recap--I had no idea this was going to be so long, apologies--
Hermione is having a swell time with Krum. She drops in on her best 
friends to see how they're doing, and one of her best friends starts 
attacking her. She is baffled. Said best friend then forces her to 
talk about being asked out, which is excrutiatingly embarrassing to 
her. Then he makes an insulting implication about her attractiveness 
and intelligence. She is now extremely hurt. I *still* don't think 
she knows entirely what's going on. If she knew why he was being so 
hateful--and certainly if she had expected or deliberately provoked 
it in any way--then I don't think she'd be quite so hurt. 

I don't think that the situation would be quite so *distressing* to 
her if she understood what was prompting it. 

Then Ron blatantly accuses her of betraying Harry. 

Then she looks "outraged." (Again, "outraged," to me, has some 
connotations also of shock. If the text said, "looking furious," that 
would be one thing, but "outraged" does imply shock. Someone is 
outraged at something they didn't expect.)

So, now one of her best friends has accused her of betraying her 
other best friend. At this point, she may not have a clue what Ron's 
problem is, but at this point, she couldn't care less. She's not 
bothering about being hurt or confused anymore, she's just mad. 

Then they have a few more angry exchanges.

Then Ron tells her to *go.* And repeats the initial offense that 
began the whole argument, by calling Krum "Vicky." 

So her evening has basically gone straight downhill. And it's gone 
downhill out of the blue, too, which is doubly upsetting to Hermione. 

--------

"Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not 
as a last resort!"

--------

You know, endless hashings over of this line aside, I've always seen 
it less as an indication of Hermione's feelings, and more as an 
indictment of Ron. 

I think this may be the moment (this or, a few seconds later, the 
memory of his goldfish reaction) when Hermione finally clues in. 

And confronts him with what his problem really is.

But she is only able to confront him because she has had a lousy 
evening with him, and she is really mad. 

The next day, of course, she is embarrassed beyond mortal utterance--
*Ron likes her*--and so is he, and so they both pretend very hard 
that nothing has happened. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

2. 

Hermione doesn't like Ron. (Not that way, I mean.)

This question has already been argued *a lot,* and I don't know what 
more I have to say about it. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

3.

But Hermione does dearly like Ron as a friend.

Well, duh.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

4. 

So she doesn't want to hurt him. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

5. 

It would hurt him to tell him she doesn't like him. And she isn't 
going to have that conversation without dying of sheer embarrassment 
anyway.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

6. 

So, just as she and Ron pretended that the evening of the Yule Ball 
never happened, so she is going to continue pretending that he 
doesn't like her.

If she ignores it long enough, maybe it will just go away, and 
everything can be like it was, and she won't have to deal with this 
embarrassing situation.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

7. 

So when he asks her about Krum, it is entirely natural that she 
dodges. It is utterly out of the question that she would "look him 
straight in the eye and tell him about Krum, giving him the bad news 
as soon as possible." She just can't do that.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

8.

Anyway (Derannimer realizes suddenly that she could have answered 
this argument much more quickly) she *didn't* refuse to tell him.

The first time, she was too embarrassed talking about Viktor to even 
notice Ron's question, and the second time, she's interupted by Snape.

And, IIRC, the question is never brought up again, by Ron or anyone 
else. So she didn't "refuse to tell him."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Right. So. 

Any questions? 

(Doubtless.) ; )

Derannimer (who is a *big* FITD proponent, and so likes to read 
Snape's "so you can keep your minds on your potions rather than on 
your tangled love lives" as a little forshadowing.)