Wizard University

[Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>]

No: HPFGUIDX 51938

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)
<catlady at w...>" <catlady at w...> wrote:
>
> ... substantial editing of unrelated subjects...
> 
> Steve bboy_mn wrote:
> 
> << I also have a theory that there are Wizard Universities. ... The
> research or practical experience are submitted to academic review 
> commitees .... the committee decide(s) ... the award of a 
> 'professorship'[added: Professoriat of Magic] or the title of 
> 'Doctor' of Wizardry. Of course, I made all this up, but it's still 
> a reasonable theory. >>
>  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

CatLady begins with:
> Steve, I think you *did* invent the Schools of Magic before I 
> invented the multi-campus Hogwarts ...
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

bboy_mn:
No, I stole the idea from someone. The multi-campus theory had been
discussed, but my impression is that people viewed the other campuses
as miniature versions of Hogwarts as in this illustration -

University of Hogwarts - Hogsmeade
University of Hogwarts - Liverpool
University of Hogwarts - Dublin

The distinction I made was that they are not mini-Hogwarts, but
extensions of Hogwarts that serve a different purpose. As in the
attemped illustration-

Hogwarts School & College of Witchcraft and Wizardry - Hogsmeade (5 &
7 year school)
Hogwarts School of Magic - Liverpool (3 & 5 year school)
Hogwarts School of Magic - Dublin (3 & 5 years school)

Note: I say 3 & 5 year school because I believe there is a minimum
educational requirement for wizards just like there is for muggles. In
the US, although not uniform, you either have to complete the 8th
grade or be 16 years of age and in the 8th grade, or something like
that. Framed in a reference characteristic of the wizard's 'era', that
would be like a 5th or 6th grade edcuation, about the minimum you need
to be functional in the world.

So in my little fantasy world of magical schools, you must have at
least 3 years of 'some form' of magical education, to really be
accepted as a wizard. Five years gives you 'qualifications' that in a
sense are like a high school diploma. Seven year NEWTs are the
equivalent of an Associate (2 yr) college degree. (again that's an
illustration)

Also, note 5 &  7 year qualifications from Hogwart's. A 5 years
qualification from Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry is
better that any other 5 year qualification. It's like the difference
between a Bachelor's degree from Harvard and a Bachelor's degree from
a state university. It carries a degree of prestige.

Keep in mind that we have to frame the educational system in the 'era'
that the wizards appear to be living in. People getting full high
school diplomas and college degrees is a very modern developement. My
grandmother had only a 6th grade education. My father never finished
high school and my mother just had a high school diploma. I was the
first to ever go to college. Now, many of my nephews and nieces are in
college. So until recently, like that last 100 to 150 years, did
anyone but the richest people even go to college. Most people learned
how to read and write, and basic arithmatic, and then they went out
into the work force.

So we must be carefull not to frame Wizard's education in the full
modern world, 21st century context. To be '7 year' educated in the
wizard world is probably not real common; it is the elite education.
It would be about like having a high school education for people
living between 1850 and 1900. Advanced titles would be extremely rare.
-end this part-


CatLady Continues:
>... (on which the latest bell or whistle is to wonder if the
> wizarding folk, who can bend space to put Diagon Alley where 
> Muggles can't get to it, ...
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

bboy_mn:
Sorry for the slight diversion here. Did you read the post where
someone speculated 'wizard space' was like a 'pleat' in the time-space
continuum? Where the Leaky Cauldron is the infinitly thin seam of the
pleat that can only be seen or expanded by the eyes of a magic person,
and wizard space is the fabric in the pleat that is contained behind
that seam. I thought that was the coolest idea.
-end of diversion-

Catlady resumes:
> (...  can also bend space to put all the different Hogwarts campuses
> in the same place without them being able to get to each other 
> except through Hogsmeade - rule-breaking kids who go to Hogsmeade 
> outside of their appointed Hogsmeade weekends might run into kids 
> from one of the other Hogwartses
) 
> .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. 

bboy_mn:
...oooooo.... I like the way you think. Hogsmeade is a pleat in
time/space that is in turn surrounded by other pleats, each pleat
being one of the different Hogwarts schools. Sort of like Hogsmeade
being the center of a flower and each of the schools a time/space
flower petal attached to the center.

Not sure I buy it, but none the less, it is a really cool thought.
-end this part-


>Back to Catlady again:
> 
> But I'm pretty sure I was before you with the idea that wizards *do* 
> have higher education, except they get it via academic Guilds rather 
> than from Universities. Besides independent study and personal 
> experience, the apprentices study under their Masters, and might
> even be herded into the Guild's lecture hall for regular lectures 
> like in a Muggle college class. ...
> .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ..

bboy_mn:
Yes, you're right. In fact, that is what gave me the idea. And, Guilds
are more in keeping with the somewhat primitive 'era' in which wizards
live. However, I want to point out that my idea doesn't exclude your
idea. I think the Guild concept is great and could easily be
integrated into the world with my university idea. The 'University'
concepted is based more on academic for academic sake. Like, could a
person ever really use a liberal art degree???? Yet, a liberal arts
degree is still a valid, valuable and worthwhile pursuit, just not
very practical. The 'Guild' on the other hand could still have strong
academic leanings, but it's purpose it to produce members who have
directly appliable skill and knowledge. Tadesmen, artist, artisans,
craftsmen, and merchants are the kind of people who would be members
of and who would reflect the nature of a Guild.

So as far as I'm concerned your Guilds exist in the same world as my
universities (or I guess in a sense the would be non-universities).
Notice the framework that my universities are in; they are advanced
independant study that is reviewed by academic committees for purposes
of evaluation and validation. Also, to help the wizard world continue
to accumulate a vast body of generally available knowledge. Logically,
people studying in this independant study university framework do
study under more knowledgable wizards, but in pursuit of ideas,
concepts, and pracital knowledge that can be applied, but not
necessarily in pursuit of a specific craft.

The frame work that I see Guilds in, while allowing for some
independant study, requires close supervision and council by a Master
Guildsman with the goal of learning the Guildsman's craft. It is the
classic, wizard's apprentice as told in many many tales of wizards in
literature. In fact, may tales of wizard, are told  from the point of
view of the wizard's apprentice. So not only is that a valid idea, it
has strong precedence in existing literature, and has strong
historical presedence; the Guild concept was formed in the middle ages.

Added note: I use the term university as a description, not a
definition. I merely imply that there is higher education
certifications. Remember my 'universities' have no campuses, or
classrooms. The academic review committees are the committees of
private organizations like the "International Fraternal Order of
Wizards" (which I made up) or the "International Confederation of
Wizards", and they could just as easily be the "International Order of
Master Wandmakers" or the "British Master Wandmakers Guild". ... or
maybe all of the above. Anyone can issue a certification, but the
quality of a certification is nothing more than the reputation of the
organization issuing it. Harvard is a more prestigious certification
than "Podunk Junction University and Croissant Shop".

-end this part-

>CatLady continues:
> Unlike you, I think that "Professor" is just a courtesy title and 
> "Doctor", in the academic guilds, is a title of honor given by the 
> Guild's ruling council to distinguished masters. I have my masters 
> called Magister and Magistra (of Artis Magia) when being formally 
> addressed. 
> .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. 

Well since we are inventing worlds to some extent, and since we see
teachers who are Professor and teachers who aren't Professors, I felt
there had to be a reason. Why isn't Madam Hooche a Professor? Isn't
she 'honorable' enough to deserve that title? Something must create
the distinction. So I came up with the idea that the standard degrees
would be Professoriat (Professor Harry Potter) and Doctorate (Dr.
Harry Potter). 

Again, we are dealing with a society that is living in a somewhat
different era, so I tried to keep the titles consistent with what I
saw in the book, and at the same time keep them very basic. I didn't
want to get into anything as complex as Associate, Bachelors, Master,
and PHD. In the preceive era they live in, to acheive any academic
success is a major achievement, and to achive beyond that is massively
extreme and rare. So, I limited it to Professor and Doctor. So far we
haven't seen anyone with the title Doctor, although I believe it could
and may indeed happen.

One more thing before I move on ...

"I have my masters called Magister and Magistra (of Artis Magia)..."

Magistra of Artis Magia - Master of the Magic Arts???? 

You can actually get a degree in that from a Muggle university???
-end this part-

Catlady - cut from an earlier paragraph-
> I like the degrees to be apprentice (student), journeyman (college 
> graduate), and master (Ph.D), with the  would-be master required to 
> present and defend a dissertation which is the equivalent of a 
> "masterpiece" in a non-academic Guild. (I imagine various sorts of 
> grueling dissertation defenses.)
> .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ..

bboy_mn:
No problem on my part with your association of apprentice titles to
academic titles, but I do want to make a distiction between Craftsmen
and Tradesmen. There is a big difference between a master electrician
and say a master silversmith or master cabinet maker. Anyone can learn
a trade, but it takes real artistic talent to become a craftman.
Relating this to the book, I think you can learn how be be a Professor
of Transfigurations or a Professor of Charms. While it certainly
requires inteligence, hard work, and skill; it's not the same as
becoming a Master Wandmaker, which I think is an artform limited to
those with trememdous magical artistic talent. You could be educated
in Charms, but only a uniquely talented artistic student under the
guidance of a skilled Master could become a Master Wandmaker.

Take Hermione for example, she could be a Professor or even a Doctor
of almost anything, but I don't think she could be a wandmaker, or at
least not a Master Wandmaker. Think of the level of sensitivety that
Ollivander has to wands. As soon as he touches a wand, he
instinctively knows who he sold that wand to, when he sold it, the
kind of wood, and the core. He can even take wands made by other
wandmakers and tell you the core, the wood, and the wands
characteristics. For him to be able to take a piece of wood and
'divine' the proper length, the shape, and the core to maximize that
wand are a truly unique natural artistic gift. There are ways to hone
and fine tune that gift, and to learn the skills necessary to apply
it, but either you have the gift or you don't, and no amount of
academic study can alter that.

RE: Becoming a Master
" ... master required to present and defend a dissertation which is 
the equivalent of a "masterpiece" in a non-academic Guild. (I imagine 
various sorts of grueling dissertation defenses.)"

I've been told by some people who have or are studing for their
Masters, that the Oral Exams especially are grueling. The Professor
challenge every statement you make, and well... show no mercy, and
it's been implied that there is even less mercy show to a PHD candidates.

I suspect in a non-academic Craftsman Guild you must show a true
artistic 'masterpeice' for their evaluation. Like the grandest most
powerful wand a would be Master Wandmaker could make. 
-end this part-

Catlady concludes:
> (I imagine that the Potions Guild has an on-going tension between
> the scholar members and the artisan members, with the artisan 
> members resenting that they pay "all" the money while the scholars 
> get "all" the glory, such as only the scholar members ever get 
> chosen to be "Doctor".)
> 
-END CATLADY-

bboy_mn finally ends:
Ah yes, the Thinkers vs the Do-ers; the classic age old battle. As
always the Thinkers are busy telling people what they think, and are
more likely to publish theory and research. So they get all the
attention, and since they publish, they are more likely to get
recognised. Whereas the Do-ers, well they are to busy doing; too busy
getting productive results to spend all their time talking and
writing, so they don't get the documented recognition. 

Life just isn't fair. That's probably Snape's problem, he doesn't
publish enough papers for review.

While we did not dwell to much directly on canon, I feel this is a
productive effort to refine and expand the inner workings of the world
defined by the book. We know there are professor, but how are there
professors? I think analysing what happens behind the page, can give
us a better understanding of what we read on the page.

Just a few (OK, a lot) thoughts.

bboy_mn