Washing dishes and powders/ Snape's and Lupin's roles (was re MAGIC DISHWAS

[eloiseherisson at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 52106

Pip, on Snape's desire for revenge:

>Canonically, Snape *talks* a good fight. He screams about revenge. 
>He blows his top. He threatens to feed Lupin and Black to the 
>Dementors. [PoA, Ch. 19, p.263 to 265]
>
>Canonically, however his actions when left alone on the Hogwarts 
>grounds with no known witnesses and four unconscious bodies is to 
>*not* call the Dementors. 
>
>His precise canonical action is to conjure up four stretchers, and 
>carry everyone back to Hogwarts. [PoA, Ch. 21 p.301]

Eloise:
Yes. He takes a bound, unconscious Sirius up to the castle, where he has 
every expectation of Fudge ordering his immediate Kissing by the Dementors. I 
also once pointed out that at that point, seeing the Dementors retreating, 
Snape *might* have thought that the Dementor's Kiss had possibly already been 
performed. In fact , if it had not been for Harry's patronus, Snape *would* 
have woken up to find a ready-soul-sucked-Sirius. Not to mention a 
soul-sucked Harry. In that case, would people still be asking why he didn't 
summon the Dementors?

Mind you, there is a little inconsistency in canon here. Snape claims that by 
the time he came round, everyone was unconscious and the Dementors 
retreating. Yet Fudge apparently knows that the Dementors tried to Kiss 
Harry.

Did Snape actually witness what really happened and understand that there was 
no point in trying to recall the Dementors just then or that if he did there 
was real danger to the students in his charge?

As you have pointed out, how he acts with an audience is different from how 
he acts privately. Here, he  goes for official justice, rather than lynch 
law. But the end result, he can reasonably expect, will be the same.

He still *tries* to take his revenge. And Lupin is, or course by now 
wandering round the forest and Snape can't do much about that.

Pip:
>He does force Lupin's resignation the next day.
>
>But the only canon for Snape's motives comes from Lupin. [PoA p. 309 
>Ch. 22] Lupin's making a reasonable inference of course; Snape 
>doesn't like him. 
>
>But there's another reasonable inference. That Lupin, on the night 
>of the Shack, was *yet again* wandering around in his unsafe 
>werewolf form. That Lupin could have bitten anyone on the grounds 
>that night. That the man simply isn't *safe* to have as a teacher at 
>Hogwarts.

Eloise:
Which is part of the argument I have already used  (Snape simply doesn't 
trust Lupin and thinks Dumbledore is wrong about him - we have canon for 
that) and with which I think Tom concurred.



Returning to Tom (quoting me):

>>If Sirius was 
>>part of that old crowd (and yes, Tom, 
>>that's an inference, but I think it's a 
>>fairly logical one) then why would he 
>>have been so surprised to hear that 
>>Snape was at Hogwarts? 
>
>I (Tom) reply:
>I agree as well. I think I said that I thought it was a decent 
>inference, too, but I might have forgotten to include that... always 
>missing something. ;-)

No, I think you did say that. I was writing from memory, which frequently 
fails.


>>Eloise wrote:
>>Snape had, after all, been warning Dumbledore about Lupin all year. 
>>He quite simply thought Dumbledore was wrong about him and finally 
>>took matters into his own hands. This is true, whether Lupin was a 
>>spy or not. In either case, we have to explain why Snape apparently 
>>remains Dumbledore's right hand man after such a blatant act of 
>>insubordination. I think it says a lot both about their relationship 
>>and about Snape's importance to Dumbledore's plans.
>
>I (Tom) reply:
>I agree again - I think we're going to see a very Competent!Snape in 
>OotP... IMHO, Snape's slip didn't really bother Dumbledore too much, 
>and I'd submit that Snape, as a previous informant, is really quite 
>vital to any plans that Albus is, um, planning. In other words, even 
>if Dumbledore *wantes* to fire Snape, I really doubt that he would, 
>because Snape's so significant.

Eloise:
As Marina's pointed out, Competent!Snape has already been established to the 
satisfation of many.
Something that I've just realised, though, is that things have changed in 
Dumbledore's camp since VW1. We've talked of the inadvisibility of the 
identities of the whole network being known to each other. In VW1, I contend 
that Snape's place in Dumbledore's organisation was known only to Dumbledore. 
Yet now he's openly part of the team. 

As you probably know, I incline to the view that Snape was and will be again 
a double agent, and will use his known association with Dumbledore (a good 
diguise for a supposed spy of Voldemort's) to feed disinformation to 
Voldemort. If you see what I mean.
Complicated this spy stuff. ;-)


Tom:
>It's also my pet idea (zero canon to support it, really, which is why 
>I haven't ventured out on this particular rickety limb thus far) that 
>Lupin, like Snape, is also way more important than we know just yet. 
>
>First, I have a suspicion that Lupin was brought to Hogwarts 
>expressly to deal with Sirius, although we're not given any canon on 
>that. 

Eloise:
That would seem likely. In CoS, we're told that Lockhart was 'the only man 
for the job'. Was Lupin not available then?
A curious coinicidence that one of the old crowd, who *knew* Sirius should 
suddenly be remembered and brought in just at this moment. Not only is he one 
of the old crowd but the last of the group of friends whom Dumbledore 
probably suspected (even if he doesn't know about the Marauder's Map) to know 
a lot about how to get in and out of the school. Someone who knows Sirius, 
his ways of thinking, his capabilities better than anyone else alive. Someone 
who would be highly motivated to protect the son of his close friend from the 
man he thought betrayed him.

Tom:
>Second, given that he leaves very quickly at the end of PoA, I 
>have this bug stuck in my head that Lupin went off to work on 
>something for Dumbledore, since there's no need for him to deal with 
>Sirius any longer. 

Eloise:
Hehe.
Yes. I do rather enjoy the thought that whilst Snape thinks he got Lupin 
turned out at last (because he *still* thinks Dumbledore's wrong to trust 
him), in fact, Lupin would have left anyway. Precisely because Dumbledore 
*does* trust him. Snape's outing of him perhaps ironically provided a 
convenient excuse for him to leave. 

Tom:
>When I read that conversation between Lupin and 
>Harry, I just kind of get this idea that Lupin is off on some sort of 
>an errand. Third, JKR keeps saying that Lupin is one of her favorite 
>characters - and somehow, I just think (or maybe, I just want to 
>believe) that she'd give one of her favorite characters something 
>very important to do.

Eloise:
And as he's to return, then I'm sure he will have.
I suspect he's also been in touch with Sirius in the intervening time. As 
Dumbledore tells Sirius to go to Lupin's, he must at least know where he is.

~Eloise