Agency in the Shrieking Shack

[marinafrants <rusalka@ix.netcom.com>]

No: HPFGUIDX 52252

Uhm... sorry about that.  Yahoomort apparently decided to post this 
on its own while I was in the middle of typing.  Let me finish now.

> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shauna <wind3213 at h...>" 
> <wind3213 at h...> wrote:
> > 
> > Despite the fact that Dumbledore has just learned of the true, 
> > desipicable nature of Peter Pettigrew, he seems confident that 
> > the lifedebt will come in useful.  It doesn't sound as though he 
> > expects that a lifedebt *can* be subverted, or overcome.  
> > According to what he's saying, lifedebts don't count on the 
moral 
> > character of the indebted, but rather something else, something 
> > magical...
> > 
> > And a few lines later:
> > 
> > "This is magic at its deepest, its most impenetrable, Harry."
> > 
> > Whatever we think we know about lifedebts, we can't be sure that 
> > we're right.

Me:

> No, but I think it's a safe bet that "magic at its deepest, its 
most 
> impenetrable" doesn't mean "magic at its clearest and most 
> predictable."  If something is impenetrable even to Dumbledore, I 
> find it extremely hard to believe that an entire world-saving 
master 
> plan could be built around predicting the specific effect that a 
> life-debt could have on a potion created by a Dark Magic ritual.
> 
> Me:
> > >  Therefore, there's 
> > > no reason to assume that Pettigrew's life-debt will affect 
> > anything 
> > > other than Pettigrew's behavior.  And even then, it still 
> depends 
> > on 
> > > the debtor's character -- Pettigrew still managed to a great 
> deal 
> > of 
> > > harm to Harry, despite the debt, because he doesn't have the 
> > > integrity to honor it properly, the way Snape does.  
> 
> Shauna replied:
> > Oh, yes, Snape honors the lifedebt properly.  By making Harry's 
> > life as miserable as possible.  Forcing him to do detentions, 
> > undermining his self-esteem... integrity, eh?

Me again:
> We've seen no indication thaat a life-debt requires the debtor to 
be 
> *nice* to their savior.
> 
> 
Shauna:
> > Wait, you say!  It doesn't matter what Snape *does* to Harry, so 
> > long as he keeps him alive.
> > 
> > Well, well, well.  Does Peter Pettigrew in GoF ever attempt to 
> kill 
> > Harry?  No.    
Me:
> He captures him, ties him up, and then brings back to life an 
> immortal and incredibly powerful Dark Lord who, as far as he knew, 
> would kill Harry at first opportunity.  That counts as an attempt 
to 
> kill in my book, though I have no doubt that Wormtail himself 
would 
> snivel that it wasn't like that at all.  If it wasn't for the 
Priori 
> Incantatem effect, and Voldemort's own hubris, Harry would've been 
> dead as a result of Wormtail's actions.  No, he never attempted to 
> strike a killing blow himself.  But if a life debt still allows 
you 
> to kill your savior as long as you use indirect means, then its 
> worthless.  

Shauna:
> > And he does try to make things easier for Harry.  He tries to 
> > persuade Voldemort not to use him.  When he cuts Harry, he 
> > takes the minimum amount of blood.

None of which is of any use to Harry.  Voldemort would be after him 
regardless of whose blood he used, or how much.

And even if we accept that Wormtail is trying to honor his debt 
here, it's still affecting nothing more than his own behavior.  If 
there's magic at work, it's currently invisible, though I suppose it 
may be influencing him in some indirect way.  Personally, I believe, 
for various meta reasons, that Wormtail retains his free will and 
could choose to forfeit his debt and risk the karmic consequences; 
and that Snape, too, is capable of making the same choice -- his 
redemption is meaningless if it nothing more than the result of an 
external magical compulstion.  But even if that's not true, even if 
Wormtail is, in fact, nothing more now than a moral automaton, 
Imperio'd by the universe into protecting Harry whether he wants to 
or not, I still wouldn't want to rely on his behavior as the 
lynchpin of any important plan.

Marina
rusalka at ix.netcom.com