Austen and Why tiny, tiny Parallels DO Exist for R/H and H/G

[Nicole L.]

No: HPFGUIDX 52481

Heidi said:

> Actually, I'm comparing individual characters here,
> and saying that a sea change in both characters 
> would be needed to compare the ships, which is a 
> little different from saying that SHIP A from the HP

> books will parallel Romance Y in This Other Novel. 
> When you're making a SHIP argument by comparing a 
> possible romance in the HP books with an
> "established" romance in a different novel, there
> are a few factors that come into play, including the

> individual characters themselves and the
> interaction between them. I was arguing that *at
> this point in canon* there are some fundamental 
> elements in the friendship between Ron and
> Hermione (as well as in Ron's character) that make
> it difficult to draw a parallel between R/H and 
> Darcy/Elizabeth, and that there are some
> things in the characters of Harry and Ginny that
> make it difficult to draw a parallel between H/G and

> Emma/Knightly. 
> 
> Ron and Hermione are friends in canon. Plain and
> simple - everyone can agree that at a minimum, at 
> this moment in canon,they are friends.  However, 
> Elizabeth and Darcy were not friends in P&P
> before they developed romantic interest in each 
> other, and therefore, any parallel breaks down, 
> right there. 

Your point is well taken and I think you make a good
argument.  However--and maybe I'm just getting into
semantics here--I still disagree with you because I do
not think Lilac was making the argument that R/H is
*exactly* like Elizabeth/Darcy or that H/G is
*exactly* like Emma/Knightley.  I think it's entirely
suitable to talk about the similarities of the romance
from one novel versus the romance from another or the
character from one novel versus the character from
another even if there are differences.  The point is
just that they have things in *common* not that
they're the *same*.  This was what I was trying to
express with my reference to Bridget Jones's Diary.  I
was a French major and an English minor so I studied
literature to death and I have never had a problem
with drawing parallels between texts or characters
that are not exactly the same.  Literature is
interpretive because it's read by people and people
all have different thoughts and experiences.  I think
that if you can offer evidence to support your
argument, it's a valid argument.  That doesn't
necessarily mean I'll agree with it but to me it means
that it has some merit.  I felt that Lilac's arguments
were entirely valid because she provided some very
good textual support for them.

Heidi went on to say:

> He [Darcy]can be a conversible companion if he 
> thinks it worth his while. Among those who are at 
> all his equals in consequence, he is a very
different
> man from what he is to the less prosperous. 

You make a good point but I think that while Darcy may
have more of a tendency towards those who are his
social "equals", he is also a very good judge of
character.  He knows that Caroline Bingley, though his
social equal and the sister of his close friend, is
shallow and petty and that she seeks to make herself
look good at the expense of others.  Draco, on the
other hand, does not seem to exercise the same
judgment.  He appears to be fine with Pansy Parkinson
being nasty to Hermione.  Now, maybe in a future book
he'll express his displeasure with her behavior but
all I have to go on right now is what exists in the
present and it does not seem to me that Draco is as
good a judge of character as Darcy is.

Heidi later said:
 
> Now, I've seen some comments overnight that Darcy's
> largesses among the poor would never be emulated by 
> the Malfoys - but of course, we've heard
> tell of the generous donations to St Mungo's that
> Lucius made - and we have no idea if there were 
> restrictions on the benefits of that money -
> in other words, is it only to go towards care of
> purebloods? We don't know, and we shouldn't presume 
> that it is, given that Lucius, at least
> through that point, has had to at least talk a
> certain game publicly - that wizarding pride is 
> important, certainly, but Muggle-born students
> shouldn't be at risk from that dangerous monster,
> during CoS. His words in public mean something other

> than his actions in private, and people who are 
> biased and bigoted, yet wealthy, still donate to 
> noble causes as a face-saving manipulation. 

I think we're on the same page here, if I'm
interpreting what you wrote correctly.  There are
people who donate to charity out of the goodness of
their own hearts and a sincere desire to help those
who are less fortunate and there are those who donate
to make themselves look good.  My interpretation of
Lucius is that he falls into the latter category.  By
donating money, he is earning the good graces of
others who think he's doing a great and noble thing by
giving up his money when, really, he's just doing it
for his own personal gain.

Heidi pointed out:

> Huge estate? Draco? We actually have no idea whether
> the manor is a huge estate or not. But leaving that 
> aside...

Point taken.  :)  It's just my assumption that it is
based on the fact that it's called a "manor" and given
the knowledge that there are servants.  The expensive
brooms Lucius buys for the Quidditch team also helps
me lean towards the idea of the manor being huge.

Interestingly enough, the subdivision I live in has
the word "Manors" in the name and, while it is a
nice-sized house, it's not what I'd call a manor. 
When I think manor, I think Pemberley.  But I
digress...  

Heidi said:

> However, Darcy is condescending to those who he
> thinks are not worth knowing (i.e. of lower social 
> status) and while he's generous to the poor and kind

> to his servents, they're not his social equals and
he
> would never consider socializing with them. 

To me this is a touchy argument at best.  I make
allowances for Darcy because of the era that he lived
in.  Not coming from a caste society myself, I find it
hard to understand, but I think Darcy lived in a time
when socializing with your "inferiors" just wasn't
done.  I'm not saying that's a valid excuse for his
behavior but I think that Darcy doesn't think of
socializing with his inferiors because it's not an
option to him.  It is an option for Draco, though, and
he has clearly chosen to snub those that he thinks are
beneath him.  His constant remarks about Ron's poverty
are, in my opinion, pretty absurd for the era in which
we live.  Draco acts as if Ron's lack of money is some
dire character flaw and seems to see the poor as
objects of ridicule.  Maybe Darcy's view of them is
patronizing at best but I don't think he ridiculed the
poor simply because they were poor, like Draco does.

Heidi said:

> True, but isn't that overdoing the parallel a little
> too much? There's no discussion of killing people at

> all in P&P, just of some fish, but Draco's comment 
> that he wished Hermione would be the next victim is
> specific to *Hermione*, not to all muggle-born
> students, and certainly not to all Muggles. He has 
> many grounds to hate Hermione personally, not
> the least that she's trouncing him in his classes.
> Her background isn't *the* reason he wants her dead,

> it *a* reason he thinks she *could* be killed (both 
> there and in the end of GoF). 

You're right, there isn't any talk of killing in P&P. 
I was just illustrating my point that Draco's
prejudice is, IMHO, just a teeny weeny bit more
sinister than Darcy's. 

Let's take a little looksie at some canon regarding
Draco's personal prejudices:

Chapter eight, CoS:

"'Enemies of the heir, beware!  You'll be next,
Mudbloods!'

It was Draco Malfoy.  He had pushed to the front of
the crowd, his cold eyes alive, his usually bloodless
face flushed, as he grinned at the sight of the
hanging, immobile cat."

Chapter twelve, CoS:

"'Well, go up to the hospital wing and give all those
Mudbloods a kick from me,' said Malfoy, sneering. 
"You know, I'm surprised the Daily Prophet hasn't
reported all these attacks yet,' he went on
thoughtfully.  'I suppose Dumbledore's trying to hush
is all up.  He'll be sacked if it doesn't stop soon. 
Father's always said old Dumbledore's the worst thing
that's ever happened to this place.  He loves
Muggle-borns.  A decent headmaster would never've let
slime like that Creevy in.'"

**Since Hermione has not yet been petrified at this
point, he's referring to Colin and Justin
Finch-Fletchley.**

Or how about chapter eleven, GoF:

"'...Father actually considered sending me to
Durmstrang rather than Hogwarts, you know.  He knows
the Headmaster, you see.  Well, you know his opinion
of Dumbledore--the man's such a Mudblood-lover--and
Durmstrang doesn't admit that sort of riffraff."

Or my personal favorite manifestation of the depths of
Draco's depravity, chapter thirty-seven GoF:

"'You've picked the losing side, Potter!  I warned
you!  I told you you ought to choose your company more
carefully, remember?  When we met on the train, first
day at Hogwarts?  I told you not to hang around with
riffraff like this!'  He jerked his head at Ron and
Hermione.  'Too late now, Potter!  They'll be the
first to go, now the Dark Lord's back!  Mudbloods and
Muggle-lovers first!  Well--second--Diggory was the
f--"

So not only does Draco have a problem with those who
aren't "pureblood", he has a problem with those who
befriend them as well.  Yes, Draco does have other
reasons to hate Hermione but it seems pretty clear to
me that he thinks the mere fact that someone is a
"mudblood" is reason enough for them to be killed. 
Heck, they don't even have to be a "mudblood".  They
can just happen to *like* "mudbloods" and/or Muggles.

Heidi said:

> Wait a moment - when did we ever see Draco's
> treament of servants in canon? We don't see him 
> interact with house-elves at all. Yes, Lucius is
> an elf-abuser, but we haven't seen or heard of Draco
> doing any of that.  He sneers about Hagrid, but not 
> to his face, and let's put it this way- his 
> treatment of Hagrid in class isn't any more 
> obnoxious than Harry's treatment of Snape in class. 

Sorry, you and I have *vastly* different opinions
here.  When has Hagrid ever made a mean-spirited,
petulant attack on Draco?  When Draco was attacked by
Buckbeak because he was a stupid jerk who did not
listen to basic instructions, did Hagrid laugh at him
and tell him he'd gotten what he deserved?  I do *not*
see Harry's treatment of Snape as being anything at
*all* like Draco's treatment of Hagrid.  Hagrid may
not like Draco but, at worst, he's a little brusque
with him.  Snape, on the other hand, freely belittles
Harry in front of his peers, openly accuses Harry of
being a liar, and even insults Harry's dead parents. 
Not even in the same league, IMHO.  If I were in
Harry's shoes, I probably would've cursed Snape a
thousand ways from Sunday by now.  I admire Harry's
restraint!

Heidi said:

> You mean on the train? The day after Draco stood
> with the rest of the school and toasted Cedric's 
> memory? If you'd like to go back to my posts
> from last month that his comment on the train could
> be read as a warning, just as his comments in the 
> woods at the World Cup were a warning, you might 
> have a slightly different take on why Draco said
what
> he said in the train. 

Sorry, but post or no post, you're not going to
convince me that Draco was just giving them a friendly
warning, just as I probably won't convince you that he
wasn't.  To me, a warning is, "You know, Harry, I'm
really concerned about your safety.  The Dark Lord
doesn't take too kindly to those who befriend those
who don't come from wizarding families."  It's not a
rant during which one is addressed by one's last name
in what I see as a derisive fashion and during which
offensive racial epithets are carelessly lobbed about.

Heidi went on to say:

> Yes, Ron is protective of his sister, sometimes,
> when he's not telling her to go away. There are 
> tonnes of smidges of character-comparisons
> that we can do, taking a tiny bit about a character
> from another book and saying that it parallels a 
> character in HP. Voldemort has some parallels to 
> Darth Vader, but we know from JKR's interviews that 
> it's *highly unlikely* that he's Harry's father. SO
> there, the parallel falls down. 

Well, I wasn't trying to draw a parallel.  I don't
think Ron's relationship with Ginny is all that
similar to Darcy's with Georgiana at all.  I was just
throwing something out there so no need to tear that
parallel down.  :)

Heidi then pointed out:

> Btw - there is one area where there is no parallel
> between Draco and Darcy, which I'm sure we can all 
> agree on - the way they look. Darcy is tall and 
> dark, whereas Draco is small and fair, much like... 
> (oh wait, it's another literary parallel):
> 
> Colin Craven from The Secret Garden
> 
> See? 
> 
> The boy had a sharp, delicate face the color of
> ivory and he seemed to have eyes too big for it. He 
> had also a lot of hair which tumbled over
> his forehead in heavy locks and made his thin face
> seem smaller. Mary could not help noticing what 
> strange eyes he had. They were agate
> gray... 
> ..."I think he's a very spoiled boy," said Mary. 
> 
> Oh, come on ;) Even the Draco-haters can agree on
> this one. Can't we? 

[Nicole takes a deep breath and screws up her courage.
 "I can do this.  I can do this!" she thinks.]

I agree with you!

There, I said it.  ;)

Now I have to say that I am, indeed, a Draco hater and
proud of it.  I think he's a twitchy little ferret,
just like Hermione.  If JKR does try to redeem him,
it's going to have to be a humdinger because I find
him to be a despicable little punk.

I also have to say that I'm highly enjoying this
debate!

~Nicole, always happy to argue.  ;)



=====
*****************************************************************
      "You haven't got a letter on yours," George observed.  
        "I suppose she thinks you don't forget your name.  
  But we're not stupid--we know we're called Gred and Forge." 

      Chapter 12, "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone"
*****************************************************************

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