From brighteyes at completely-incomplete.net Sun Jan 19 17:46:16 2003 From: brighteyes at completely-incomplete.net (Bright Eyes) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 17:46:16 -0000 Subject: Did Tom go to school with James? Message-ID: <004001c2bfe2$ae2b90c0$f52aa8c0@freeserve.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 46793 This is my first message to the group, but I'd like to say I've really enjoyed reading your messages over the last week or so. I think my HP knowledge is slowly expanding. :o) I have a question about the books and maybe it's answered within them but I have never spotted it, or maybe JKR has answered it elsewhere and I don't know about it. Sorry in advance if this has been asked before... My question is kind of in the title (sorry if it's vague though) we know James, Lupin, Sirius, Peter and Severus were all at school at the same time, we also know Hagrid and Tom were at school together. Does anyone know when Lucius was at school? I wondered if he went to school at the same time as Tom? Also were Tom and Hagrid at school at the same time as James and co? Or are we to assume they're older than the others? Does anyone have any answers? Lisa (moony_loon) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From brighteyes at completely-incomplete.net Mon Jan 27 19:56:27 2003 From: brighteyes at completely-incomplete.net (Bright Eyes) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 19:56:27 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Harry Doesn't See His Parents Dying (WAS: Voices from the past) References: Message-ID: <001201c2c63e$33af6580$f52aa8c0@freeserve.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 47309 Finwitch: <> Me: I had never really given the man's voice much thought before I read this topic. I, like Harry, assumed it was just his dad. But reading it back, it did seem quite odd JKR never said it *was* his Dad. It was a man's voice and that is all we are told. Harry just presumes it must be his Dad. Which is quite natural, but Harry knows no more about his father than we do. As for Harry not seeing it, I put this down to a few things. Harry was just a small child when they died, as awful as it may have been, he wouldn't know what was going on and so it wouldn't have a memorable impact. Also, there's something JKR is keeping from us until book 7, if Harry remembered his parents death, there'd be no story, he'd have it all sussed out. Finwitch: <> Me: I must say, I've only ever fainted once, and I agree, nothing went blurry. But it was a strange sensation. Everything went dark for me and I could hear what was going on but it sounded like it was all really far away (this was of course, before I fainted). Lisa (moony_loon) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at texas.net Wed Jan 1 00:08:20 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 18:08:20 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] any post explaining the cloak or any other item like it References: <000c01c2b10a$3f8279e0$e88402c7@home> Message-ID: <004401c2b129$e5b030e0$4a04a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 49047 Bobafett of the confusingly varied mix of capitals and lowercase, said > I've seen a lot of posts asking and discussing invisibility cloaks and so on and so forth. Well, I have the only answer you need ;) > > It's magic, silly! True, and our ultimate refuge when we have exhausted attempts to explain things, or exceeded our canon knowledge to the point where we have walked off the end of our limbs and are running in the air like Wile E. Coyote. "It's magic" was my ultimate answer to the "how do you administer Mandrake juice to a petrified person," and has been invoked for other conundrums as well. BUT. JKR is nothing if not detail-oriented, and the degree to which her systems "work" and are true to themselves is awe-inspiring. It's sheerly fun to see if we can (a) figure out the rules behind things (for rules there are, clearly) and (b) catch the Mistress herself when she overlooked something. Probably even more relevant, we've all been chasing our tails for so long waiting for fresh grist for the mill, that a simple answer is not what we want. Thanks anyway. ~Amanda ----------------------- Hailstorms suck. From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Wed Jan 1 00:23:00 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 19:23:00 EST Subject: Harry's Anger: LV v. Sirius Message-ID: <136.18bd130c.2b438ee4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49048 In a message dated 12/31/02 5:29:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, huntleyl at mssm.org writes: > he seems to have very > little rage at Voldie for his parents - at least nothing like he had for > Sirius Does anyone else wonder why that is? Harry isn't as angry at LV as he was at Sirius. Why? I have a theory. (The following will go on Harry's knowledge during most of PoA.) Harry is just as angry at LV as he is at Sirius, but Sirius did one thing LV did not. Betrayal. Sirius betrayed Harry's parents. Loyalty is a big thing in the Potterverse. Examples: Dumbledore says that he will never be truly gone as long as there are people loyal to him; Lupin doesn't tell Dumbledore that Sirius is an Animagus; Lupin doesn't attack Sirius; Lupin and Sirius say they would've died for their friends. Okay, some of my examples might be a little weak, but I don't have the books with me. That's my theory of why Harry seems more angry at Sirius than LV. Sirius was supposed to be loyal to his parents, and he wasn't. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ (Who understands just what Harry means because she got a big betrayal (hence the "You're all you've got. That's the point." post)) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 1 03:59:47 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002 ) Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 03:59:47 -0000 Subject: Mandrake and Polyjuice Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49049 I originally asked: > So could mandrake juice work on Crouch Sr.'s bone? Could you pour > mandrake juice on the bone and return his body to its original > state? Would its original state be alive or dead? Now me (again): After thinking about this a bit more, I think if in fact Crouch Sr.'s bone could be restored back to his body, I think his body would have to be dead. If mandrake juice could be used to restore a cursed person who had died back to life, presumably Moaning Myrtle would have been able to return from the dead after seeing the Basilisk. Kelly L. wrote: > I've also wondered about Polyjuice Potion--if you die while > Polyjuiced, like Mrs. Crouch, do you revert to your original form > after an hour passes, or do you remain in the assumed form > forever? If Mrs. Crouch was exhumed at Azkaban, would they find > her body or a copy of her son's? Me again: I had assumed that since polyjuice potion needed to be drunk once per hour to keep the transformation going, once one stopped drinking it, one would return back to one's own self, even if one were dead. This would suggest that the body buried at Azkaban, if exhumed, would look like Mrs. Crouch. However, I've often wondered why Crouch Sr. never went to pick up the body. It seems rather risky to leave the body at Azkaban if in fact an hour after Mrs. Crouch's death, it would stop looking like Barty Jr. Also, was it realistic to presume that the burial would take place within an hour after Mrs. Crouch's death? Given these mysteries, it would make more sense that if you die while under polyjuice, you don't change back to your own self. ~Phyllis wishing all HPfGU-ers a very happy new year! From pennylin at swbell.net Wed Jan 1 04:54:43 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 22:54:43 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Book Review: The Ivory Tower and Harry Potter (long) References: Message-ID: <009d01c2b151$e67fd5c0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 49050 Hi all -- > 8. "Crowning the King: Harry Potter and the Construction of > Authority" by Farah Mendlesohn - She paints Harry as a > passive hero who is successful largely due to "inherited" talents > and assistance from others, a "gentleman scholar" (a star on the > playing field and passably bright). She argues that the Sorting > Hat reinforces the destinarian nature of elitist Hogwarts and is > not at all about personal choices. Phyllis commented: Oh, my. She really has missed the boat, hasn't she! She must have skipped over Dumbledore's "choices make us what we are" speech at the end of CoS. How unfortunate.>>>>>>>>>>> Well, it might be interesting to take a closer look at Mendlesohn's arguments (and if our IP lawyers say that I can, I'll post some lengthier excerpts from this particular piece so you'll all have a better understanding of exactly what she's asserting). Her piece is definitely thought-provoking ----- though, as I said, IMHO, her arguments are undermined by relying on factual inaccuracies or making a clear interpretative error in some cases. Obviously, that's just my opinion. :--) Penny's review again: > 10. "Hermione Granger and the Heritage of Gender" by Eliza T. > Dresang - Dresang concludes that Rowling's descriptive > adjectives and verbs often place Hermione at odds with her core > character (the whining and shrieking doesn't mesh at all with what > we the readers know about Hermione's strength). Phyllis again: <<<<<>>>>>>> Actually, Dresang uses a number of examples to show Hermione "shrieking," "squeaking," "whining," "whimpering," etc. -- all stereotypical behavior associated with women in general and young girls of Hermione's age in particular. Dresang notes that some of these same descriptive verbs and adjectives are used with respect to McGonagall, so it can't all be dismissed as Hermione being a "normal" girl of her age. We've discussed this before I think, but I would agree with Dresang that JKR has employed some rather troubling language with respect to all her female characters. Dresang actually sees the "giggling" as being confined to Parvarti, Lavender and Ginny for the most part, and notes that Parvarti and Ginny have the most promise to be strong characters "underneath the giggles." I hope this answers to some extent Susanne's question on this same point. I don't think Dresang is arguing (and I'm certainly not) that Hermione should be without flaws .....or that we should criticize her for being flawed. I think the point is more that we don't see any of the male characters "whimpering," or "shrieking," and it's this aspect of JKR's descriptive language that can be troubling. It reinforces stereotypes. And, as I said, Hermione doesn't seem like a "whiner." I think Dresang makes the point that Hermione is above all a "coper," not a "whiner," and therefore, JKR's descriptive language and action verbs are sometimes at odds with what else we know about Hermione's character. Does that clarify any? Penny's review again: > 14."Specters of Thatcherism: Contemporary British Culture in > J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter Series," by Karin E. Westman > Westman argues that Rowling's "sharpest critique of racial > prejudice and materialist politics appears through Ron Weasley." Phyllis again: <<<<>>>>>>>> Oops -- I guess I wasn't terribly clear and didn't give enough context to that quote. What Westman is saying is that Ron *is* prejudiced (and JKR is using Ron to highlight it as bigotry). She notes his reaction to Lupin and obvious prejudice against werewolves in PoA and then argues that by GOF, we the readers know that his reaction to Lupin was not just an odd quirk .... his reaction to giants and the House Elves confirm this pattern. I've argued this before, though without much success against the most vociferous Ron fans in our midst. :--) Glad everyone is enjoying the review! I plan to review some other books, including all the ones mentioned by Jim Ferer in his post to our Announcements list earlier tonight. We are also hoping to take some of the arguments/statements made by various commentators and critics and use them as starting points for some "official" discussions in the coming New Year. Happy New Year to all (may we see OoP before 2004!) -- Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Wed Jan 1 05:13:03 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius ) Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 05:13:03 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Don=92t_Use_My_Number_(filk)?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49051 Don't Use My Number (PoA, Chap. 1) To the tune of Phil Collins' Don't Lose My Number Hear the original at: http://www.foxlink.net/~bobnbren/1990s.html#D Dedicted to Debbie (aka Elfundeb) THE SCENE: Four Privet Drive. VERNON receives a call more unwelcome by far than the most intrusive telephone solicitor HARRY There came a night here on Privet Drive, Ron Weasley placed a call Nobody taught him to dial right, so he began to bawl, HELLO CAN YOU HEAR ME?, I heard him shout in the receiver CAN YOU LET ME SPEAK TO HARRY PLEASE NOW, Vernon responds as if having a cow VERNON (into the phone): Weasley, Weasley don't you use my number 'Cos you're not anyone Potter can talk to Oh now Weasley, Weasley, I'll dial "M" for Murder I don't like any Wiz on my phone who squawks through, oh no .. Segue to RON at the Burrow RON: Searchin' through the day and into the night I didn't stop until I found one And then a Muggle loaned me her felly-tone, and so I'd though I'd try GET OFF OF MY PHONE, I heard a shout, then a deaf'ning bang I must try to be a little more discreet Maybe call-waiting avoids these harangues With Dursley, Dursley you can't use his number He won't let anyone Harry to talk to Oh now Dursley, Dursley, should I let ya slumber? 'Cos he would not even put Phoenix Fawkes through, oh VERNON (outraged, to RON) I'll hang up, stop phoning, stop calling Now I've hung up, oh Weasley, keep him off my line (to HARRY) Don't cross me you know that I cannot abide Don't cross me, oh Potter You better, you better, you better try suicide Now Weasley, Weasley don't you use my number 'Cos you're not anyone Potter can talk to Oh now Weasley, Weasley, I'll dial "M" for Murder I don't like any Wiz on my phone who squawks through HARRY There came a night here on Privet Drive, Vernon gave me what-for Weasley will never redial it, after he heard Vern roar He's never calling back, he won't reply, cause Vern aggrieves him Vernon threw such a hideous fit, he covered me with gobs of sprayin' spit HARRY & VERNON Now Weasley, Weasley don't you use his/my number 'Cos you're not anyone Vernon/Potter will/can talk to Oh now Weasley, Weasley, he'll/I'll dial "M" for Murder He/I don't like any Wiz on his/my phone who squawks through Now Weasley, Weasley don't you use his/my number 'Cos you're not anyone Vernon/Potter will/can talk to .. - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (updated 1/1/03 with 47 new filks) From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Wed Jan 1 05:22:46 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius ) Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 05:22:46 -0000 Subject: Book Review: The Ivory Tower and Harry Potter (long) In-Reply-To: <009d01c2b151$e67fd5c0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49052 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Penny Linsenmayer wrote: > Hi all -- > > > 8. "Crowning the King: Harry Potter and the Construction of > > Authority" by Farah Mendlesohn - She paints Harry as a > > passive hero who is successful largely due to "inherited" talents > > and assistance from others, a "gentleman scholar" (a star on the > > playing field and passably bright). She argues that the Sorting > > Hat reinforces the destinarian nature of elitist Hogwarts and is > > not at all about personal choices. These attempts to explicate Canon upon the holy altar of Race-Class- and-Gender put me in mind of a recent volume devoted to an analysis of another British children's classic. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0865476268/qid=1041398065/sr=2- 1/ref=sr_2_1/002-5070723-3712021 - CMC (refraining from further comment lest I draw a howler onto myself) From andie at knownet.net Wed Jan 1 03:30:06 2003 From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe ) Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 03:30:06 -0000 Subject: Harry's Anger: LV v. Sirius In-Reply-To: <136.18bd130c.2b438ee4@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49053 huntleyl at m... writes: ... he seems to have very little rage at Voldie for his parents - at least nothing like he had for Sirius SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: Does anyone else wonder why that is? Harry isn't as angry at LV as he was at Sirius. Why? I have a theory. (The following will go on Harry's knowledge during most of PoA.) Harry is just as angry at LV as he is at Sirius, but Sirius did one thing LV did not. Betrayal. Sirius betrayed Harry's parents. Loyalty is a big thing in the Potterverse. now me: I totally agree with this theory. While Harry, of course, would be angry with Voldie, he knows that Voldemort really would have done the same to anyone else who got in his way. On the other hand, when Harry learned that Sirius was his parents' best friend and that he has supposedly betrayed them, this would certainly bother Harry more. Like you said, betrayal is a big issue in Potterverse; also, friendship is a big issue as well. Sirius mentions Harry's loyalty to his friends in PoA when Harry and Hermione meet him (& Ron & Scabbers - aka Peter) in the Shrieking Shack. He says something of the order of knowing that Harry would come to rescue his friend... just as his father would have done... Once Harry has determined that someone is a "friend," he will go to any lengths to protect them.... More Examples: Ron - when he gets pulled into the Shreiking Shack; when he is tied to Pettigrew and Lupin when Lupin is transforming. Hermione - troll, basilisk and eventually... Sirius - escape on Buckbeak, assistance on his innocence, and keeping his silence on Sirius' whereabouts Sirius tells Harry that he is truly his father's son... (Still holding back some tears whenever I read that line!) This means that James no doubt would also go to the ends of the Earth for his friends. Anyway, that agains leads back into this loyalty issue... (which is where I believe this rambling began!) Harry is loyal and wants those close to him to be as well... thus, why he would be more upset at Sirus' betrayal rather than Voldie's downright evil nature. That holds true in everyday life as well... when someone who supposedly is our friend betrays us, it is more of a betrayal than if our enemies would do the same... Okay, that's all from me for now! Happy New Year Everyone! grindieloe :) From tahewitt at yahoo.com Wed Jan 1 03:54:10 2003 From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 19:54:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Death In OotP In-Reply-To: <1041371565.3904.19393.m1@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030101035410.32163.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49054 Hello Brand new to this list (and very new to the HP books as well. Thought I'd throw in my opinion of the upcoming death (sorry if this has already been discussed to, um, death). Janet Anderson said: >I have also speculated on the possible deaths in the >possibilities (also Neville and Percy). Fond >though I am of Mr. Weasley, I would miss Hagrid the >most. And if he does die, I bet it will be in the >process of spying for Dumbledore "in plain >sight," as he's been doing IMO since the first book. My first guess (after finishing the 2nd book) was that Hagrid would be the one to die. I've been told that the rumored death in the 5th book is to be a fairly prominent charecter. Hagrid plays a big role, especially in PS/SS, much more so than Neville, Percy and Mr. Weasley. Hagrid also is sort of a father figure to Harry (even if Harry doesn't realize it), and his death would go along with a sense of growth or strength gained through pain and loss that seems to run throuthout the books. I like Hagrid a lot, he's really the only charecter in the HP books that seems truly good without a hint of bad (even Harry and Dumbledore occasionally dwell in the gray area between good and bad) and don't want him to die, but... My second guess (after reading all four books) is Ron Weasley. I don't think this is as likely, however. The Harry/Hermione/Ron triangle works really well, and it doesn't make sense to disturb that. Also, my guess is that these three are too central to the books (and all three have loyal fans), and it would anger or disturb too many people to kill one of them off. Mind you, it would be Ron or Hermione, I think I can safely assume that Harry won't be dying anytime soon. Anyways, lets assume for a bit that JKR is going to do away with either Hermione or Ron. There's a couple of death clues (iffy at best, but reading these books taught me to treat nearly every line as a hint): 1. In PoA, the divination teacher gets really upset at Christmas dinner when she is the 13th guest. She says that the first person who rises will be the first to die. Harry and Ron rise at the same time, and can't remember who stood first. Yes, I know that the divination teacher was for the most part innacurate wth her predictions, but she did accurately predict events in GoF. I get the feeling that she's like a Sneakoscope in that no one really trusts its accuracy but it turns out to be mostly right. If Ron was the first to rise, this could be a clue to his upcoming death. 2. At the end of GoF, on the Hogwarts Express back to London, Draco tells Harry, Hermione and Ron that now Voldemort is risen, muggles and muggle-born will start being killed. If I remember correctly, he tells Hermione to watch out. This could be a Hermione death clue. I think it's more likely to be Ron, however. Readers like to identify with charecters in books. My guess is that there's hundreds of thousands of kids worldwide that role-play charecters in the books. I would also guess that for the most part girls role-play female charecters, and boys role-play male charecters. It wouldent make sense to get rid of the primary female charecter. Who are all the girls going to identify with? Hermione is also the brains of the trio; as such she's needed. Wich leves us with Ron. I think a lot of people identify with him, but his usefulness to the story is somewhat secondary. His role seems to be emotional support for Harry, who seems to be able to get that sort of support nearly everywhere. If the books continue along the dark feeling that ended GOF, Ron could very well be dying soon. Ron is my favorite carecter in these books, so I really don't want this. So, bad as it sounds, I'm hoping it's Hagrid. "Tyler" From gandharvika at hotmail.com Wed Jan 1 11:26:18 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 11:26:18 +0000 Subject: (FILK) With A Little Help From My Friends Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49055 With A Little Help From My Friends (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune _With A Little Help From My Friends_ by the Beatles) Midi=Here: http://wsp3.wspice.com/~dpannell/beatles/ Sung By Harry Potter *before* the third task Harry (Gryffindor Quidditch Team: What would I have done if it wasn't for them Helping me throughout both of those tasks? Lending a hand and giving me support And all I had to do was just ask Oh, I got by with a little help from my friends Hmmm, where would I be without the help of my friends Hmmm, Going to try with a little help from my friends How would I even get past the dragon? (Sirius said a simple spell's what you need) Moody he said, "Play to your strengths" and then (Learnt "accio" from Hermione) Oh, I will fly with a little help from my friends Yes, the egg's mine with a little help from my friends No, won't get fried with a little help from my friends (Winning the Competition) Without them it couldn't be done (Tri-Wizard Competition) I have to thank everyone (Under the water how will you then breathe?) Dobby showed up bringing Gillyweed (Ron, your best friend at first didn't believe) But with him there it made things easy Oh, I get by with a little help from my friends Hmmm, where would I be without the help of my friends Hmmm, going to try with a little help from my friends (Winning the Competition) Without them it couldn't be done (Tri-Wizard Competition) I have to thank everyone Oh, can't deny it was with the help from my friends Oh, I got by with a little help from my friends Yes, all is fine with a little help from my friends Yes, where would I be without the help of my friends With a little help from my friends -Gail B...wishing everybody in HP4G Land a very Happy New Year! _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Wed Jan 1 11:46:10 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 1 Jan 2003 11:46:10 -0000 Subject: File - HPfGU.announcement-Nimbus.htm Message-ID: <1041421570.12669780.43498.m12@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49056 An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Wed Jan 1 08:35:27 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana ) Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 08:35:27 -0000 Subject: A detailed analysis of Snape's hatred of Harry (S.N.O.T.) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49057 I've been thinking all day today about Snape's hatred of Harry and how this may or may not change in future books, and why he loathes him so much. I've come up with a detailed and very long analysis of Snape's feelings toward Harry, Ron, Hermione and Draco. Not knowing Snape's true history with the Death Eaters, I don't know if Snape was always a spy for Dumbledore or is a former evil DE now working for the good side. However, this does not affect my theory, which I've called S.N.O.T. or Snape the Nasty Odious Twit. ;) Let's start with Snape as a child in school. I imagine Snape is very much like Draco Malfoy at that age. Sirius even says in PoA, while explaining the "prank" they played on Snape to H/H/R in the Shrieking Shack, that Malfoy was always sneaking around trying to catch James, Remus and Sirius (and probably that rat Peter) doing something against the rules so they would be expelled. This is what Malfoy does constantly - try to get Harry expelled. Snape was jealous of James' popularity, skill at Quidditch and his small group of close-knit friends, all of which Harry now has at Hogwart??s. Even twelve years after James' death, Snape says, sneeringly, "...a little talent on the Quidditch field..." with great derision while interrogating Harry after Harry's head was seen by Malfoy in Hogsmeade [PoA]. He even attributes "strutting" to James, and to Harry, though nothing in canon suggests that James actually strutted around the school. [C'mon, we all know James didn't strut, right?] We know for a fact Harry doesn't "strut". These are all comments made by a man so overcome with jealousy he's poisoning himself with it (figuratively, of course). His jealously of James runs so deep that he's still obsessed by how, in his own eyes as well as other's eyes, he failed to measure up to James while in school. I mean James and his wife Lily were murdered thirteen years ago and their only child has been living with hateful, spiteful nitwit Muggles! That??s an amazingly long-lasting and unceasing rage of jealousy for a person to maintain!. Why *would* Snape hold such a deep hatred for James for so many years? Well, I would say that Snape went to Hogwart's with a vision of himself as *the* person [instead of James] who *deserved* the popularity, athletic ability and fun-loving personality that James must have had. The problem was that Snape didn't have any of those things and these are things that can be gained by waving a magic wand and wishing them to be so. When, for want of a better description, Snape ended up being the Draco Malfoy of his day; his resentment reached monstrous proportions - and is still very actively maintained and close to the surface no matter how many years may have passed between the boy he was and the man he is now. Now take into account the prank, put into play by Sirius Black unbeknownst to James and Remus, that nearly cost Snape his life back in school. Being attacked and eaten by a werewolf would have been an especially horrible and painful death, so I can kind of understand Snape??s lingering hatred for the people who he thinks tried to kill him. Despite Snape??s mistaken belief that James only saved Snape from Wolf!Lupin to save himself from being expelled, Snape still owes James a life debt, which according to Dumbledore is a serious thing in the Wizarding World. Snape would then owe a life debt to a person he loathes and envies more than anything in the world ?V a person who Snape felt engineered the saving of his life [by endangering it in the first place] thus causing a life-debt for purely selfish reasons. If Snape ever actually believed that James had no foreknowledge of the prank and saved his life just because it was the right thing to do, then Snape??s head would probably explode in a fit of catastrophic jealousy. After all, this would mean James may have been *worth* all the popularity and attention because he was a heroic and genuinely good person. This is not a view Snape can ever accept for his own peace of mind. So, Snape, still intensely envious of a man who DIED young thirteen years ago [as of GoF, so far] sees this man??s son enter Hogwarts and repeat his father??s steps. Harry has an amazing talent for flying and Quidditch, a very close-knit group of friends and ten-fold the amount of popularity of his father because he??s famous to boot!. Snape sees Draco Malfoy start the same year and sees himself in Draco, an extremely jealous and spiteful boy in the same house he was in, and that Draco is immediately forced to take a backseat to famous Harry Potter and even to Harry??s friends. Snape, expectedly, boils over and relives his feelings of hatred for James and directs them at Harry. Unlike when he was just a powerless classmate of James, Snape, as an adult and a professor, now has power to inflict verbal abuse, bullying and punishment on Harry, who not only follows his father??s path in Hogwarts but even looks remarkably like him! Snape probably feels like he??s getting to bully, punish and verbally abuse James every time he gets to verbally assault Harry. That is why Snape enjoys picking on Harry so very much ?V he??s not punishing Harry, but James in the secret recesses of his heart. Extending the analogy further, Snape hated Sirius and Remus, too, because they were James?? friends. The prank also gave Snape reasons, independent of their association with James, to hate Sirius and Remus. Many years later, Harry has Ron and Hermione, two close friends who would die for Harry, if it came to that, just like Sirius and Remus would have died for James. Snape is going to hate them, no matter what, as extensions of Harry??s unfairly *better* school life than what Snape had or what Draco has. So, Snape is cruel [??I see no difference.?? to Hermione??s overgrown teeth in GoF, for example] to Hermione and Ron because he sees them as living examples of Harry??s undeserved popularity and *better* life. ***Note: I do not mean to diminish Ron and Hermione as characters/people in their own right ?V I??m just pointing out Snape??s point of view of them as pertains to my S.N.O.T. theory.*** Like James, Harry also gets away with breaking the rules, a lot, and gets a lot of breaks. In Snape??s view, this is another unfair perk that both James enjoyed and Harry enjoys while at Hogwarts. What Snape doesn??t realize in his obsessive hatred of all things James and Harry, is that Harry breaks the rules not because he *can*, but because he *must*. Harry doesn??t go after the Sorcerer??s Stone for fun ?V he goes to stop Voldemort from getting it first. Harry doesn??t go into the Chamber of Secrets because he??s just curious what??s in there ?V he goes to save Ginny??s life. Harry doesn??t *consort* [Snape??s word, not mine] with werewolves and murderers because he thinks he??s immune from punishment or injury, but because he was trying to save Ron from being eaten by an enormous black dog. When Harry does break the rules for lesser reasons, such as going into Hogsmeade without permission, walking the school at night and visiting Hagrid when he??s not supposed to, he is fearful of being caught and expelled. Harry is afraid of disappointing Dumbledore and of the consequences of getting caught. Harry never assumes that if he??s caught that he??ll get off because of who he is. He never trades on being famous and Dumbledore??s favorite as the reason he breaks the rules. Malfoy, on the other hand, constantly breaks the rules in front of Snape specifically because he knows he won??t be punished. Harry breaks the rules anyway despite his anxiety of getting caught and expelled because, like his father, it??s part of his very nature. Snape can??t understand this and sees Harry??s rule- breaking as Harry proclaiming how special and famous he is ?Vso special and famous he won??t be punished for breaking rules. Harry also uses his father??s invisibility cloak, which Snape discovers the existence of in GoF, without any supervision, repercussions or punishment from Dumbledore. Snape must know that Dumbledore is not only fully aware that Harry has this cloak, but gave it to him and allows him to use it whenever he wants. Snape is also probably aware that Dumbledore has not told any of the staff that Harry has an invisibility cloak as Snape had to stumble upon it himself by accident. In Snape??s view this is a classic example of Harry, like James, getting all the perks and good stuff in life without any of the punishments. Now Draco, embodying Snape??s adult view of himself when he was a child, sees Harry and his friends in much the same way Snape viewed James and his friends. Snape would of course empathize with Draco and build him up while tearing Harry down every chance he got. Staying on Lucius Malfoy??s *good side* by hating Harry while praising Draco for the possible purposes of spying on DEs or Voldemort would have nothing to do with how Snape treats Harry. Snape hates Harry for plenty of reasons already and would do so anyway without possibly needing to maintain a cover as a DE. IMO, Snape will *always* hate Harry because Harry, exactly like his father before him, is the person who gets everything while Snape [and now Draco] gets the short end of the stick. Not only does Harry get to do everything without ever seeming to get severely punished, but Snape is obligated by a life-debt to a man he hated to repay that debt by keeping Harry from harm. By harm I mean death, as I doubt Snape would care if Harry was badly injured as long as he wasn??t going to die. By example, I cite in GoF when Snape implied he was going to poison Harry at the end of class to test the students?? antidotes. Snape, as a potions master would have the antidote ready to save Harry??s life but wouldn??t mind subjecting him to some pain and fear of dying before dosing him with the antidote. When Harry is called out of class for photos with the other champions, Snape is furious because Harry??s luck and *better* life has triumphed again and Snape was denied his little *torture of Harry* session. At the end of PoA, Snape is denied a chance to bask in some glory and fame by being the person who saved the life of the famous Harry Potter, so he vents with his bitter and nearly unhinged verbal attack on Harry and Hermione in the hospital ward. Because Harry, Hermione and, importantly, Dumbledore, don??t acknowledge and confirm Snape??s view of events, then Snape is denied settling the life-debt he owes to James by saving Harry and is being dismissed, again, by Dumbledore as Snape feels Dumbledore dismissed Black??s prank to murder him many years ago. Snape can??t claim he saved Harry??s life by muttering a counter-curse to Quirrell??s attempt to kill Harry at the Quidditch match in PS/SS because Quirrell stopped jinxing the broom before Hermione interrupted Snape??s counter-curse by setting his cape on fire. Snape??s treatment of Neville Longbottom is also very indicative of his unpleasant personality and complete lack of compassion. Snape picks on Neville because he can ?V and Neville gives him the reaction Snape wants, fear. So, to conclude, Snape is an unpleasant, hateful, spiteful and petty person. That is just who he is. IMO, he is not trying to cover up his opposition to Voldemort and the DEs by abusing Harry ?V he just hates Harry for personal reasons of his own. If Voldemort was really dead with no chance of coming back, Snape would still hate Harry just as much. I cannot see Snape changing such a basic tenet of his personality and part of his life ?V his intense hatred for James, then Harry ?V in some future book. If Harry were to ever save Snape??s life, no matter how accidentally, I imagine poor Snape would probably have an apoplectic fit to rival the Big Bang. ;) Going by my theory above, Snape isn??t *truly* evil, not as defined by the likes of Voldemort or Lucius Malfoy, for example. Harry, Ron, Hermione and Neville probably think he??s evil, but I don??t think he??s evil, just extremely nasty, unlikable and full of boundless amounts of envy. Harry hates Snape just as much as Snape hates him, but probably hasn??t thought through all the specific reasons and parallels between Snape and James at school and Harry and Draco at school. I wouldn??t be surprised though if the ever observant Harry finally connects the dots and sees Snape for how pathetic his hatred really is. If Harry does that he will take away what Snape most enjoys ?V getting a rise and reaction out of Harry. I imagine Harry *might* feel some pity for Snape ?V a man??s whose intense jealousy of Harry??s father has shaped his very being. Sorry for the novel-length post. ?? Diana From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jan 1 14:47:01 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 14:47:01 -0000 Subject: A detailed analysis of Snape's hatred of Harry (S.N.O.T.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49058 Diana:"Let's start with Snape as a child in school. I imagine Snape is very much like Draco Malfoy at that age. Sirius even says in PoA, while explaining the "prank" they played on Snape to H/H/R in the Shrieking Shack, that Malfoy was always sneaking around trying to catch James, Remus and Sirius (and probably that rat Peter) doing something against the rules so they would be expelled." Snape's and Draco's actions may be similar, but that doesn't mean their motivations are the same. Snape impresses as a much more overtly angry person, hating and resenting others for everything from their greater acceptance by their peers to their straighter noses and cleaner hair. Draco, OTOH, is much more comfortable with himself; he's handsome (to many), he's got clothes, he's got money; Snape is an angry kid, Draco's a "successful" sociopath. Snape has doubts about his self-worth; Draco doesn't. Diana:"Snape was jealous of James' popularity, skill at Quidditch and his small group of close-knit friends, all of which Harry now has at Hogwart?s. Even twelve years after James' death, Snape says, sneeringly, "...a little talent on the Quidditch field..." with great derision while interrogating Harry after Harry's head was seen by Malfoy in Hogsmeade [PoA]. He even attributes "strutting" to James, and to Harry, though nothing in canon suggests that James actually strutted around the school." See? Any sign of popularity, success, or confidence is hateful to Snape. Confidence, self-worth, comfort in one's skin is bound to look like "strutting" to someone like Snape. Your impressions of Snape's raging hot resentment and jealousy are right on, IMO, but I believe Draco is coming from a different place. Draco resents Harry for having rejected him (he did offer friendship at first, remember) and for his fame and success, but it doesn't eat Draco's guts like it does Snape's. Instead, Draco has a wicked smile on his face as he takes every opportunity to hurt Harry. Diana:"Snape hated Sirius and Remus, too, because they were James? friends." Here Snape and Draco are alike: they hate Harry because he *has* friends, true friends, one of the reasons Snape hated James. Draco only has sycophants, his two bully-boy hangers-on, who have no true love or loyalty to him at all. Snape probably was very much isolated, even from his house and dorm-mates. To the isolated, watching friends being friends is a knife in the guts, envy, rage and grief all rolled into one. Actually, the seeds of Snape's conversion to the good side may be right here. Albus Dumbledore may have been the first person to treat Snape as a human being, as someone with worth, and thus earned Snape's loyalty. (Although that didn't stop Snape from enjoying the moment when Draco sucked up to him about becoming new Headmaster while Dumbledore was suspended.) Diana:"IMO, Snape will *always* hate Harry because Harry, exactly like his father before him, is the person who gets everything while Snape [and now Draco] gets the short end of the stick. Not only does Harry get to do everything without ever seeming to get severely punished, but Snape is obligated by a life-debt to a man he hated to repay that debt by keeping Harry from harm." Agreed, about Snape, anyway, but I still believe Draco's a different person coming from a different place. Their behavior may be the same in places, but Draco is a much more dangerous enemy in some ways. Diana:"Going by my theory above, Snape isn?t *truly* evil, not as defined by the likes of Voldemort or Lucius Malfoy, for example. Harry, Ron, Hermione and Neville probably think he?s evil, but I don?t think he?s evil, just extremely nasty, unlikable and full of boundless amounts of envy." You're dead on about Snape. He's on the right side but never will be "nice." I'd add Draco to the truly evil list Diana:"Harry hates Snape just as much as Snape hates him, but probably hasn?t thought through all the specific reasons and parallels between Snape and James at school and Harry and Draco at school. " I don't think so. If Snape had an epiphany and started treating Harry decently, Harry would be wary, for sure (I would!) but in the end would not actively hate Snape. I don't think you could say the same about Harry/Draco. Best, Jim Ferer From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jan 1 15:03:49 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 15:03:49 -0000 Subject: Sucking & Blowing of Souls (was: Crouch in 9) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49059 Steve:"That makes me wonder, if a Dementor can 'suck' out your soul, would that also imply that he can 'blow' it back?" That's what dementors live on... in small doses (the fear they spread) or the great feast (actually getting a whole soul at one time. So, a Dementor could give back a soul about as well as you and I could reconstitute last night's steak. Steve:"The new place in the wizard's world that Harry will visit. Could it be Godric's Hollow, Egypt, the Ministry of Magic, or .... perhaps Azkaban?" I've got two Galleons on Azkaban. Since Hogsmeade is the only all-wizard settlement in Britain, then Godric's Hollow must be a Muggle town or the name of James and Lily's home, now destroyed. Either way, what would be there for Harry? Egypt, why not? But it hasn't figured into anything except where Bill Weasley works. The MoM? Maybe, but I don't think Harry's welcome there is going to be as warm as it once was. Besides, it's a government building(s). Not too thrilling. But Azkaban? We might have someone who needs rescued, or someone to put in there. Harry might have to face his fear of Dementors yet again. There's a lot more possibilities there. Jim, wonderning what you can buy for four Galleons From Malady579 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 1 17:37:06 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody ) Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 17:37:06 -0000 Subject: TBAY: CHOPping wood Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49060 The safe house had been kind of quiet for a while. Seems the caroling tired its occupants out. A few fellow TBAY'ers had decided to come over to see Pip, so she was entertaining the guests in the living room. Pip was in her normal chair by the fire while Eloise and Elkins sat together on the couch. Cindy had taken Grey Wolf's normal chair, and although it is made for the huge werewolf, somehow she filled the space quite nicely. The tea tray was just settled and distributed when a heavy scrapping was heard from the west wing stairs. -Thump- Pip stopped in mid sentence and cut her eyes to the west side of the house. -Thump- Now, Elkins, Eloise, and Cindy paused their teacups and joined Pip's stare to the very heavy boom. -Thump- -ThumpThumpThumpThump- **CRASH** "Oh dear." Elkins and Cindy snickered as Pip calmly put her teacup down on the coffee table. "I hope you did not like that Tiffany lamp *that* much Pip?" Melody called from the foyer. Pip just closed here eyes and took in a deep breath. "What did she do?" Cindy asked craning her neck to the foyer. They heard the sound of scrapping again, and Melody came into view straining to drag one of Grey Wolf?s huge axes. "Oh great. Pip, you are letting her play with axes now?" Eloise asked appalled. "Melody why do you need an ax? You can barely lift that thing," Pip pointed out with a hint of disapproval. Melody paused her dragging and leaned it against the wall. "I wanted - *pantpant* - to conquer - *pant* - my fear of trees. If I take an ax - *pant* - then at least I can threaten it to not hit me this time." "Won't threatening it make it even more mad?" Cindy asked. Melody bit her lower lip. "Possibly." "Melody, how can *you*, wielding an ax you cannot even *lift*, convince a tree to not hit you?" Eloise asked plainly. "Well it is not like the tree can *see* that I can't lift it," Melody pressed though felt a bit silly for not thinking of that herself. Wanting to change the subject, she asked, "What brings you all here today?" "Elkins and I are here in honor of Pip's CHOP theory. We wanted to give our support and all, and see how it was coming along," Eloise explained resuming her tea sipping. "Why is Cindy here then? I thought she did not like the theory that much?" Melody asked as she watched Sneaky scoot over to the foyer to sweep up the mess. The elf scampered back through the room and threw a nasty glare at Melody. "Cindy is here..." Eloise began. "*I* am here," Cindy interrupted, "to see whether the theory has become Big Bang worthy. See I do have interesting in the theory even if I will not let it preside on the destroyer quite yet." Eloise and Pip snorted in their tea, but Elkins jumped in to cut the impending. "Melody, why don't you join us?" Melody blinked a bit. While the idea of just joining those four in the living room of the safe house was *greatly* inviting, Melody had to be true. "I'm sorry I can't," she said quietly looking down at her shoes. "Why not Mel?" Pip asked surprised. "You have never said you don't like it." "No I haven't. I do like your theory Pip. I do. But - I just can't." "Well of course you can Melody," Eloise said, "but for some reason you won't. Come now, you know it is a good theory." Melody shifted her weight between her feet and leaned against the back of the couch to fuss with the pillow. "The reason is silly." "Oh honey, you can tell us. We won't laugh," Cindy said tipping her teacup back to take a sip. Her eyes were set on Melody with that expected twinkle. This time all the four other women in the room sniffed in disbelief, as Cindy looked affronted. "What?" "You know Cindy. You will never be able to pull off that innocent act," Elkins said shaking her head. Pip looked over at her little housemate and asked sweetly, "Melody, please tell me. What is your reason?" Melody looked around the room but settled her eyes on Pip and said with big worried eyes, "I don't want him to die." Cindy bit her lip but the sides were twitching a little. Elkins threw her a pillow as the two of them attempted, quite poorly, to conceal their deep mirth laughing in the pillows of the couch. "See they are laughing," Melody pouted. Pip leaned over and patted Melody's hand. "Melody, they are not laughing at you -" "Yes we are," Elkins and Cindy said in unison causing them to laugh even harder. "Ok so they are. *But* it is because it is so cute," Pip explained trying to be reassuring. "None of us *want* Dumbledore to die. However, what we want does not mean we should turn a blind eye to the possibility that it might be a major plot point in the future. Right, ladies?" Cindy and Elkins nodded in agreement but were still snickering. Eloise threw them a box of tissue. "Why is Dumbledore's death so bad for you? Normally, you are not one to let emotions affect your opinion about theories," she asked as she sat Melody down between her and Elkins on the couch. "I think it is the decapitated part," Melody said looking down at her hands as they intertwined nervously. "I keep envisioning all those Brits on Tower Bridge with their head on a spike. That is just too disrespectful for Dumbledore's head. Can't he give like a liter of blood or something? Pippin will like that." "Mel, a bucket of blood does not bang," Cindy said sitting back in her chair wiping her eyes. Melody sat quietly a minute and glanced up at Cindy. "It would if Snape goes to Voldemort with it trickling from his mouth." Everything paused in the safe house as each pair of eyes closed tightly to exhume the image. Eloise drew in a long breath. "You're out of your head. Melody that is disgusting." "What is with these listees!?" Elkins exclaimed reburying her head in the pillow. Cindy sat ash face. "Well, Pippin *would* like it." "Cindy!" Eloise exclaimed, "Don't encourage her." Pip sat staring at Melody. "But Melody you don't ascribe to the Vampire Snape theories. Why are you switching?" All four heads turned to the girl. "I am not switching at all Pip," Melody said shaking her head. "From the way I see it, Snape does not have to be telling the truth when he goes back to Voldemort. He could be lying about his vampire state, but all the physical evidence, like the pale skin and blood trickle, would say otherwise. After all, Voldemort *is* searching for immortality. Snape could make him believe he is a vampire or a special potion-regulated vampire that lives forever and can run around in daytime, and thus could 'help' Voldie attain that status." "And dribbling Dumbledore's blood down the front of his robes will convince Voldemort of *that*?" Eloise asked in disbelief. "It might. And then Dumbledore's head does not have to be displayed as a war trophy. I keep having visions of Cromwell's and Dumbledore's heads talking on Westminster Hall to each other, and that is *too* disturbing," Melody said with a shudder. "Oh, but having Snape *covered* in Dumbledore's blood isn't?" Elkins asked indignantly. "I don't see what is so worse about that. How sad is our society when dragging a head to the foot of the evil overlord is tame in comparison of a little blood," Melody said defensively. "But Mel, drinking blood *is* disturbing," Pip stated. "I did not say he drank it. He only dribbled it out of his mouth. Yes, it would require him to have it *in* his mouth, but I think he would sacrifice that little bit for such an important goal. You know, the shock to Voldemort would be rather big I think. Especially if he knew Snape was experimenting before with vampire things, and knew Snape wanted to achieve the state. So, the fact he finally did, or so it appears, would greatly excite him. And then, Voldemort has a whole vat of blood furnished courtesy of Snape via Dumbledore. Seems tic for tac in my opinion since Dumbledore helped cause Harry to give his blood, but frankly this giving of blood does not even have to work with MD. Why would he not be willing to give even in a basic read?" Cindy kneaded her head and said, "So you have managed to stomp all over CHOP's goals, MAGICAL DISHWASHER's hidden motives, Vampire!Snape's state of being, and Big Bang's appeal. All without adhering to any of them." "Well makes for an interesting tap dance," Melody smiled. "One thing Melody," Elkins said having regained her composure. "How is Voldemort to know this is in fact Dumbledore's blood? Not like it can be notarized." "Well. No floating body parts," she said as they all shuttered a bit. "What we need is something Dumbledore needs himself. Something he depends on. Can't be himself without it. --- Hey! What if Snape brought along the pieces of Dumbledore's snapped wand. Seems that would be *big*. A kind of biblical 'foreskin'." "Ok *that* imagery *is* making me sick," Eloise said scurrying over to the downstairs WC. "Sorry," Melody blushed, "Y'all started this." Melody who does wish everyone a Happy New Year and who can't help but chuckle at how many levels the title works. ;) I count at least three. From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed Jan 1 19:44:01 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr ) Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 19:44:01 -0000 Subject: The new place in OoP(was Re: Sucking & Blowing of Souls) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49061 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve " wrote: >Suddenly off on a new subject.... > > The new place in the wizard's world that Harry will visit. Could it be > Godric's Hollow, Egypt, the Ministry of Magic, or .... perhaps Azkaban? > Didn't JKR say in an interview that Harry was going to find out a lot more about a room he had been in once before? I forget whether or not this is the same as the "new place", but-- Maybe Harry will go back to the Chamber of Secrets. After all, he never really looked around down there, did he? There must be some way besides Fawkes to get back up; Tom Riddle must have had one. I would think it quite likely that Salazar Slytherin put more down there than just a basilisk, that Tom Riddle must have thoroughly explored the place, and that it could be very important. And, of course, Harry's the only other one who can open the entrance. Annemehr From ilana at windom.netrack.net Wed Jan 1 19:04:04 2003 From: ilana at windom.netrack.net (isiscolo ) Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 19:04:04 -0000 Subject: A detailed analysis of Snape's hatred of Harry (S.N.O.T.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49062 wrote: [major, major snippage] > Snape's view of events, then Snape is denied settling the life-debt > he owes to James by saving Harry and is being dismissed, again, by > Dumbledore as Snape feels Dumbledore dismissed Black's prank to > murder him many years ago. Snape can't claim he saved Harry's life > by muttering a counter-curse to Quirrell's attempt to kill Harry at > the Quidditch match in PS/SS because Quirrell stopped jinxing the > broom before Hermione interrupted Snape's counter-curse by setting > his cape on fire. [snippety snip] > James, then Harry ?V in some future book. If Harry were to ever save > Snape's life, no matter how accidentally, I imagine poor Snape would > probably have an apoplectic fit to rival the Big Bang. ;) It seems to me that one of two things is being set up to happen in a future (probably last) book. Either Harry will save Snape's life, or Snape will give his life to save Harry's, or both will happen in that order. Oops, that's three things. I see this as separate from any Snape-redemption, which is a sort of slow but constant process as Harry matures. What we see of Snape is through Harry's eyes, and the "redemption" is partly (maybe mostly) the transformation of Snape in Harry's view, not in an objective sense. After all, Dumbledore already trusts Snape, and we know (or think we do) that he is on the side of good, now. It's just that Harry doesn't, partly because Snape's, well, a Nasty Obnoxious Twit. I. From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 1 20:15:31 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura ) Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 20:15:31 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Isn=92t_it_Irrelevant=3F_(filk)?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49063 "Caius Marcius wrote: > > > Isn't it Irrelevant? Prompted by the thread started by Laura in #48756 ? and what the heck, I'll dedicate it to her as well (hopefully, she's now been enlightened as to CoS' true significance) > > > Laura says: Well, thank you very much for the dedication. =) CoS is definitely relevant, I know...it just seems that the plot doesn't exactly fit in with the orverall plot of the entire series. What I mean is, if you were to look at HP so far as one book, 1 story...there's one part that gives us an extraordinary amount of background info and exposition...all wrapped up in a plot that doesn't seem to fit in with the rest of the story. (yet) Which is probably just nit-picking, since each book is able to stand alone, and some book it would be without any action. But the plot, the action, what actually HAPPENS (as opposed to what we discover) doesn't seem to flow with the rest of the books. i.e, it doesn't really give us rising action in the series as a whole, or, as far as we can tell yet, create future complications. Well, that was my feeble attempt to redeem myself. =) -Laura From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed Jan 1 20:17:57 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr ) Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 20:17:57 -0000 Subject: Harry's Anger: LV v. Sirius In-Reply-To: <136.18bd130c.2b438ee4@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49064 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: > In a message dated 12/31/02 5:29:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, > huntleyl at m... writes: > > he seems to have very > > little rage at Voldie for his parents - at least nothing like he had for > > Sirius > > Does anyone else wonder why that is? Harry isn't as angry at LV as he was at > Sirius. Why? I have a theory. (The following will go on Harry's knowledge > during most of PoA.) Harry is just as angry at LV as he is at Sirius, but > Sirius did one thing LV did not. Betrayal. Sirius betrayed Harry's parents. I completely agree with this post, and just want to add another thought: Harry's anger with Sirius was based on the past; his only issue with him was the betrayal of Harry's parents. On the other hand, his battle with Voldemort is ongoing and involves trying to save his own life along with the whole wizarding world. He is continually finding more reasons to fight him. This is shown pretty well in the scene where Harry goes to bed after his experience in the pensieve: "Lying in the darkness, Harry felt a rush of anger and hate toward the people who had tortured Mr. and Mrs. Longbottom....He remembered the jeers of the crowd as Crouch's son and his companions had been dragged from the court by the dementors....He understood how they had felt....Then he rememberd the milk-white face of the screaming boy and realized with a jolt that he had died a year later.... It was Voldemort, Harry thought, staring up at the canopy of his bed in the darkness, it all came back to Voldemort....He was the one who had torn these families apart, who had ruined all these lives...." Harry can identify strongly with other peoples' suffering at the hands of Voldemort along with his own and that of his parents, and they all factor into his motivation to join the fight. And whenever Harry comes face-to-face with Voldemort, his immediate concern is with survival and preventing fresh horrors. So, I think Harry's anger for the sake of his parents is always there, but it exists along with many other concerns. Annemehr who is finding on this list that it is very difficult to express herself clearly and hopes this comes across alright! From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Jan 1 20:48:21 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 20:48:21 -0000 Subject: The new place in OoP(was Re: Sucking & Blowing of Souls) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49065 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve " > wrote: > > > > >Suddenly off on a new subject.... > > > > The new place in the wizard's world that Harry will visit. Could > > it be Godric's Hollow, Egypt, the Ministry of Magic, or .... > > perhaps Azkaban? > > > > Didn't JKR say in an interview that Harry was going to find out a > lot more about a room he had been in once before? I forget whether > or not this is the same as the "new place", but-- > > Maybe Harry will go back to the Chamber of Secrets. After all, he > never really looked around down there, did he? There must be some > way besides Fawkes to get back up; Tom Riddle must have had one. I > would think it quite likely that Salazar Slytherin put more down > there than just a basilisk, that Tom Riddle must have thoroughly > explored the place, and that it could be very important. And, of > course, Harry's the only other one who can open the entrance. > > Annemehr bboy_mn: Isn't there a bit of oh-so-sweet irony in Harry going into the Chamber of Secrets again. Just think of the DE's storming the castle, and where does Harry hide? In the fortress of Gryffindor, no in the Lair of Slytherin. Or where does the old crowd meet to formulate their battle plans in secret? ...the Lair of Slytherin. That's got to be the last place that Voldemort or the Death Eaters would look for them. Even if the Death Eaters did think of it, there are only two known people living on the earth (or at least in UK) that can speak parsletongue. Although, on another note, some people suspect that the room in the castle that Harry will visit that has special magical powers will be the room of chamber pots that Dumbledore mentions. Damn, where is that next book. Detail, I need details... Well, we shouldn't have to wait too much longer. just a random thought. bboy_mn From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 1 20:55:31 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura ) Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 20:55:31 -0000 Subject: Death In OotP/ Books 6 and 7 In-Reply-To: <20021231194306.28439.qmail@web10308.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49066 Danny Tenenbaum wrote: > > > I mean imagine being a 7 year old and having nearly all the characters that have been nice to Harry die, one after the other. > > > I don't think that carries any weight, JKR isn't going to say "oh no, someone might be upset if I kill off this character." I believe she's already said that she never necessarily intended it to be a children's series. And we have seen the books becoming darker and darker...and she intends to write it just the way she wants, crying little kids or no. =) Here are my predictions: Book 5: Dumbledore (just WAY too many references in the end of GoF about how old he is) The Creeveys (sorry, they're Muggle-born...) Arabella Figg (maybe towards the end, though, we still need to learn about her...besides, if she ends up as the DADA teacher, she's not going to last more than a year, right?...my apologies for making fun of death, but it does make some sense) Fudge (mostly just because he refuses to believe that Voldemort is back...so of course that's gonna come back and bite him in the you- know-what) Book 6: Pettigrew (I just can't see Voldemort going through the whole series without killing him) Lupin (unfortunately...he's way too nice, I can't see him making it through the whole series) Igor Karkaroff (a good lesson here...look what happens when you take the coward's way out and flee from your mistakes) Book 7: Draco and Lucius Harry (sorry folks, I just see it that way) Ron (*sniff* how come no one ever predicts Hermione getting killed off?? just doesn't see to fit that way, does it? *another sniff*) Voldemort (ok, I'm definitely taking this one for granted...but with JKR, should I really be doing that???) And of course, random DEs and innocents throughout the next 3 books. And I have a strong suspicion that Snape is gonna go...not sure when though. Of course, it will happen just after Harry learns to trust him... Also, someone (Richelle?) predicted the death of "someone who suddenly becomes likable, like Cedric Diggory" Just to open up a whole new topic, I would say that Cedric became likable BECAUSE he died, not the other way around. Well, even more so. By the end of GoF, him and Harry and been through a lot and they had helped each other out and worked together...but if he hadn't died, I don't think he would be just AS well-liked. Just a few thoughts. -Laura From heidit at netbox.com Wed Jan 1 21:14:49 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 16:14:49 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR on Death In OotP/ Books 6 and 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <02b701c2b1da$d1fb2800$0301a8c0@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 49067 > -----Original Message----- > From: Laura [mailto:metslvr19 at yahoo.com] > Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 3:56 PM > To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Death In OotP/ Books 6 and 7 > > > Real-To: "Laura " > > Danny Tenenbaum wrote: > > > > > I mean imagine being a 7 year old and having nearly all the > characters that have been nice to Harry die, one after the other. > > > > > > I don't think that carries any weight, JKR isn't going to say "oh no, > someone might be upset if I kill off this character." I believe > she's already said that she never necessarily intended it to be a > children's series. She has - some of these quotes might be of interest in this type of discussion: Rowling believes that it is only by letting children experience the real consequences of evil actions that they can understand Harry's moral choices. http://www.readersdigest.co.uk/magazine/Rowling4.htm "I don't want to disturb children," she said, "but I don't want to write about death as if it's something that doesn't happen." And after all the whole series begins with the death of Harry's parents. http://home.scottsburg.com/trinkle/rowlinginterview.htm I think it would be fair to say that in book five he has to examine exactly what death means, in even closer ways. But I don't think people who have been following the series will be that surprised by that. http://radio.cbc.ca/programs/thismorning/sites/books/rowling_001023.html Heidi, collecting quotes since 2000 From urbana at charter.net Wed Jan 1 22:26:42 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne ) Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 22:26:42 -0000 Subject: Harry's Anger: LV v. Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49068 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr " wrote: > Harry's anger with Sirius was based on the past; his only > issue with him was the betrayal of Harry's parents. On the other > hand, his battle with Voldemort is ongoing and involves trying to save > his own life along with the whole wizarding world. He is > continually finding more reasons to fight him. This is shown pretty > well in the scene where Harry goes to bed after his experience in the > pensieve: > > "Lying in the darkness, Harry felt a rush of anger and hate toward the > people who had tortured Mr. and Mrs. Longbottom.... It was Voldemort, Harry thought, staring up at the canopy of his > bed in the darkness, it all came back to Voldemort....He was the one > who had torn these families apart, who had ruined all these lives...." > > Harry can identify strongly with other peoples' suffering at the hands > of Voldemort along with his own and that of his parents, and they all > factor into his motivation to join the fight. And whenever Harry > comes face-to-face with Voldemort, his immediate concern is with > survival and preventing fresh horrors. So, I think Harry's anger for > the sake of his parents is always there, but it exists along with many > other concerns. > > Annemehr > who is finding on this list that it is very difficult to express > herself clearly and hopes this comes across alright! You expressed it very well, IMO, Anne, and you brought up to me what is one of the crucial differences between Harry and Voldemort: empathy. Both Harry and Voldemort had lousy childhoods, but Harry is able to empathize with others, while Voldemort does not. Was Harry's childhood less lousy than Tom Riddle's? Hard to say whether it's worse to grow up in a Muggle orphanage than to spend almost every waking minute being tormented emotionally by the Dursleys. For whatever reason -- perhaps his innate goodness -- Harry cares about what happens to others, strangers as well as his friends, while Voldemort merely uses other people for his own nefarious reasons. Voldemort doesn't even care about the DEs - they are merely a means to an end. Anne U (figures this has probably been said before, but it's worth reiterating) From alicit at aol.com Wed Jan 1 22:58:20 2003 From: alicit at aol.com (alicit at aol.com) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 17:58:20 EST Subject: Wizard Clothes? Message-ID: <122.1cbdffff.2b44cc8c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49069 What, exactly, constitutes the difference between wizard clothes and muggle clothes? We see the twins in ordinary muggle clothes, slacks, and percy wears a sweater vest an awful lot. (this is mostly from CoS, which I am currently re-reading) But, in GoF, we see all the witches and Wizards that can't quite seem to grasp the concept of muggle clothes: men wear dresses and ponchos. So, are these just wizards that never manage to go anywhere outside the wizarding world? We know from PS that they're not supposed to be seen by muggles in their robes, so what do these odd fellows do? I fear that the answer is obvious to all but me. -scheherazade www.livejournal.com/users/uchidachi [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Wed Jan 1 23:16:59 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 17:16:59 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard Clothes? References: <122.1cbdffff.2b44cc8c@aol.com> Message-ID: <3E1376EB.1C5E5B72@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49070 alicit at aol.com wrote: > > What, exactly, constitutes the difference between wizard clothes and > muggle > clothes? > > We see the twins in ordinary muggle clothes, slacks, and percy wears a > > sweater vest an awful lot. (this is mostly from CoS, which I am > currently > re-reading) But, in GoF, we see all the witches and Wizards that > can't quite > seem to grasp the concept of muggle clothes: men wear dresses and > ponchos. > > So, are these just wizards that never manage to go anywhere outside > the > wizarding world? We know from PS that they're not supposed to be seen > by > muggles in their robes, so what do these odd fellows do? > > I fear that the answer is obvious to all but me. > > -scheherazade I think its the older witches and wizards who have trouble keeping up with muggle fashion or figuring out the clothes. Being as is seems many people in the WW live sheltered lives and don't see many muggles. However, more and more of the kids are turning up who are half muggle or have muggle parents, such as Hermione. These kids would most likely wear muggle clothes and influence the younger wizards and witches a lot. Also Arthur Weasley is a fanatic about muggles. Its little wonder he would have kids wearing muggle clothes, rather then wizard robes. Jazmyn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Jan 1 23:57:42 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 23:57:42 -0000 Subject: Wizard Clothes. Plus WIzard Isolation. In-Reply-To: <122.1cbdffff.2b44cc8c@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49071 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, alicit at a... wrote: > What, exactly, constitutes the difference between wizard clothes > and muggle clothes? > > We see the twins in ordinary muggle clothes, slacks, and percy wears > a sweater vest an awful lot. (this is mostly from CoS, which I am > currently re-reading) But, in GoF, we see all the witches and > Wizards that can't quite seem to grasp the concept of muggle > clothes: men wear dresses and ponchos. > > So, are these just wizards that never manage to go anywhere outside > the wizarding world? We know from PS that they're not supposed to > be seen by muggles in their robes, so what do these odd fellows do? > > I fear that the answer is obvious to all but me. > > -scheherazade > www.livejournal.com/users/uchidachi bboy_mn: I think the answer is 'KIDS'. For wizards who have kids who are currently in school at Hogwarts, they are more likely to know what kind of causal clothes modern muggle kids wear. In GoF, take Mr. Weasley for example, he wasn't that far off; baggy jeans, shirt, and a wide belt. He has a model, that is, his kids serve as a model of what muggles dress like because they have adopted the casual cloth, tee-shirt and jeans, that all muggle kids wear. Since more and more muggle and half-muggles are coming into being, the wizard world is modernizing it's dress slowly. Although, I suspect adult wizard will alway continue to wear robes for business and social occassions; that is their traditional form of dress, just as Scots and Irish still wear kilts. By modern standards, kilts are hopelessly out of date and obsolete, but they continue to hang on to them as a symbol of the past and as a connection to their heritage. Just as the Parliment and the courts in Britain continue to wear their traditional gown and wigs. It has also been brought up that, since their is only one all wizard's village in the UK and it is not a huge village, that implies that all the other wizards must live intermixed to some extent with muggles. Someone wondered how they could be so ignorant of muggle ways when they live in muggle communities. Both the Weasley and Diggory family as well as a few other named families live within walking distance of Ottery St. Catchpole. Dedalus Diggle lives in Kent. To understand, how people can be in places like this and still stay so isolated, I'm reminded of Colonial Britain. For example, the British in India, or the French in Indochina, they made little or no attempt to integrat themselves into local society. The build a miniture England within the borders of India. You see this in other ways. In London, their is Chinatown, an enclave of China within the boundaries of London. In many major cities in the western world, you find little enclaves like this; Chinatown, Koreatown, Little Siagon, Thai Town,.... People of a like culture tend to gravitate together. (Birds of a feather, flock together) So it is not that unprecidented for the wizards to keep themselves isolated from the culture that surrounds them. I work with a Korean in the export business, I meet Koreans who are successful businessmen and who have been living in Los Angeles, for example, for decades, and their English is still marginal, and they are culturally 100% Korean. They only go to Korean resaurants, they only shop at Korean stores, they only drive Korean autos, they only do business with other Koreans, etc... Yet, the are VERY successful American businessmen. Again, my point is that this cultural isolation is not that uncommon a thing. Back in October there was a great deal of discussion about wizard's robes. Here is a link to one of my post that will lead you to one of GulPlum aka Richard's posts which will probably lead you to a couple of long detailed discussions. Also, there are some link to period costumes, that we used to determine what wizard robes might really look like. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/45724 Just a few thoughts on the subject. bboy_mn From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Thu Jan 2 00:08:53 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 19:08:53 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] A detailed analysis of Snape's hatred of Harry (S.N.O.T.) Message-ID: <19b.e7367a7.2b44dd15@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49072 Diana: Why *would* Snape hold such a deep hatred for James for so many years? Well, I would say that Snape went to Hogwart's with a vision of himself as *the* person [instead of James] who *deserved* the popularity, athletic ability and fun-loving personality that James must have had. The problem was that Snape didn't have any of those things and these are things that can be gained by waving a magic wand and wishing them to be so. Me: Well...he *is* only human. Can anyone honestly say that they never hated the people who had everything? (If you think you can, then you were one of the people with everything *grin*) I know I can't. You twist reality in your mind so that these people are keeping you down, and you deserve the glory. Diana: That is why Snape enjoys picking on Harry so very much ?V he??s not punishing Harry, but James in the secret recesses of his heart. Me: People do that all the time. When the make fun of someone, they might not be making fun of them, but someone like them. I've done it to sibling of my "enemies". Diana: Like James, Harry also gets away with breaking the rules, a lot, and gets a lot of breaks. In Snape??s view, this is another unfair perk that both James enjoyed and Harry enjoys while at Hogwarts. What Snape doesn??t realize in his obsessive hatred of all things James and Harry, is that Harry breaks the rules not because he *can*, but because he *must* Me: I agree with Snape there. I personally cannot stand people who break the rules and get ahead, while those of us who follow get nowhere. No one is above the rules. Period. Now, I disagree with you on the "can vs. must". Harry doesn't *have* to do anything, he chooses to. Hence, can wins to me. Diana: Harry also uses his father??s invisibility cloak, which Snape discovers the existence of in GoF, without any supervision, repercussions or punishment from Dumbledore. Snape must know that Dumbledore is not only fully aware that Harry has this cloak, but gave it to him and allows him to use it whenever he wants. Snape is also probably aware that Dumbledore has not told any of the staff that Harry has an invisibility cloak as Snape had to stumble upon it himself by accident. In Snape??s view this is a classic example of Harry, like James, getting all the perks and good stuff in life without any of the punishments. Me: But it's true. Harry gets all kind of perks. In CoS, when they drive that car to school, the punishment should've been more severe. Muggles were alerted to the existence of magic! Dumbledore, and everyone else, has a soft spot for Harry. He just wants to be another kid. But, with all his special treatment, he isn't. Diana: So, to conclude, Snape is an unpleasant, hateful, spiteful and petty person. Me: Ouch. I'd like to think that there are more levels to everyone than what we see on the surface... He has his reasons for his hate, and he feels justified. I know what he means. It's very easy to dwell on events that happened long in the past if you feel you were extremely wronged. I'm dwelling on an incident from 5th grade for the love of Salazar Slytherin. In *my* closing, Snape is not S.N.O.T. ... Snape is S.I.L.K. (Snape is likeable...kinda.) Alot of people can relate to the feeling of being shunted to the side by the golden boys, watching them gleefully break the rules and almost never get caught - and on the rare occasions they *do* get caught, the y are not severly punished. I agree with Snape on alot of things. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ (Who's hoping that acronym makes sense...it's her first shot at making one...) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meboriqua at aol.com Thu Jan 2 00:11:46 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw ) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 00:11:46 -0000 Subject: Fake!Moody and the Unforgiveable Curses Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49073 Hey everyone - Happy New Year to all of you HP fans everywhere! Here is something I thought of while I was rereading GoF last night for the 7454th time. Of course, it is entirely possible that someone else has already thought of this and if that is the case, I am sorry. Anyway, here goes: For a long time I wondered why Crouch-as-Moody would teach the Unforgiveables to the students of Hogwarts. Wouldn't he be hurting the DE cause? Maybe not! I suddenly realized that perhaps Fake!Moody taught the Unforgiveables to Hogwarts students as a way of testing them. Once he got a sense of how each student reacted, he then passed on the information to existing DEs and to Voldemort himself. For example, we all know that Ron does not respond well to Imperius and many of us wonder if it will be used on him in the future. Crouch-as-Moody could be the one to start the chain that will lead to Imperius!Ron. Really, it is an extremely clever way to have access to all the kids at Hogwarts. Once Voldemort and his followers have all the notes on the kids, they can then even access the parents as well, if they choose. The fact that Harry learned to throw the Imperius Curse strays a bit from my theory, but perhaps young Crouch warned Voldemort to use his very best and strongest Imperius he could muster. I'll just chalk that up to Harry surprising them all. --jenny from ravenclaw ************************* From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Thu Jan 2 00:17:58 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 19:17:58 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Death In OotP/ Books 6 and 7 Message-ID: <80.253189cc.2b44df36@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49074 In a message dated 1/1/03 3:57:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, metslvr19 at yahoo.com writes: > Just to open up a > whole new topic, I would say that Cedric became likable BECAUSE he > died, not the other way around. I agree with you there. Alot of times, after people die, they get posthumous halos. No one wants to speak ill of the dead. Okay, so maybe Cedic was an all right guy. He was handsome, fairly intelligent, a good wizard. It still didn't seem to me like he was extremely popular. We don't even hear about him until PoA (correct me if I'm wrong...). If he were *that* well-liked, I'm sure Harry would've heard about him... ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meboriqua at aol.com Thu Jan 2 00:29:10 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw ) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 00:29:10 -0000 Subject: Book Review: The Ivory Tower and Harry Potter (long) In-Reply-To: <009d01c2b151$e67fd5c0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49075 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Penny Linsenmayer wrote: >What Westman is saying is that Ron *is* prejudiced (and JKR is using Ron to highlight it as bigotry). She notes his reaction to Lupin and obvious prejudice against werewolves in PoA and then argues that by GOF, we the readers know that his reaction to Lupin was not just an odd quirk .... his reaction to giants and the House Elves confirm this pattern. I've argued this before, though without much success against the most vociferous Ron fans in our midst. :--)> Hi! Penny, you may be pleased to know that this once vociferous Ron fan is no longer such a strong supporter of the last Weasely boy. It only took two years of being a member of HPFGU, but there you go. I still stand by my SHIPping views, though. :-P Ron is prejudiced. He is also extremely easily influenced by others, which, even in the best of circumstances is not a good thing. His opinion has largely been formed by what he has heard from others. Ron does not strike me as someone who thinks things through on his own. He is an interesting contrast to Hermione, who seems to pretty much *only* think things through on her own (I love that about her). If he had heard as a child that giants were good (let's say he overheard the twins talking), that's what he would have repeated to Harry... and Ron would have believed it, still without any proof. Ron makes a lot of assumptions and relies quite heavily on stereotypes. He even jumped to conclusions about his best friend over the Triwizard Tournament and assumed Harry somehow tricked the goblet without ever confirming that with Harry himself. Unfortunately Ron is, IMO, often a very accurate representation of real people - don't you think? --jenny from ravenclaw ********************** From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Jan 2 00:37:22 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 00:37:22 -0000 Subject: Fake!Moody and the Unforgiveable Curses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49076 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenny_ravenclaw " wrote: > Hey everyone - > > > For a long time I wondered why Crouch-as-Moody would teach the > Unforgiveables to the students of Hogwarts. > > ...edited... > > > --jenny from ravenclaw ************************* bboy_mn: Or maybe, he was just doing his job. In order to keep up his front as Moody, Crouch is have to act like Moody and do Moody's job. He said Dumbledore thought the students were strong enough to handle seeing these curses. When he used the Imperious curse on the students, he said that Dumbledore wanted the students to become familiar with the effect. That would imply that the real Moody and Dumbledore had a plan for why Moody was there and what he was suppose to teach. Now, you could say that Moody made it all up, but it's unlikely that something like that could be kept a secret, students talk, teachers and other students overhear. Other students might wonder why they aren't getting the same leasons. To many potential risks to try to bluff his way through that right under Dumbledore's nose. So, I suspect it was just Crouch!Moody doing his job as a teacher, and I do get some sense that he was enjoying being a teacher. Besdies, Crouch had been under the Imperious curse for years, probably a fate he would not wish on anyone. So as his own personal agenda, he made an extra effort to teach the students how to resist it. I really don't think teaching the curses was some big conspiracy between Crouch and Voldemort. It was just Fake!Moody doing Moody's job. Of course, that's just my opinion. bboy_mn From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Jan 2 01:07:13 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 17:07:13 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Book Review: The Ivory Tower and Harry Potter (long) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <92357626922.20030101170713@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 49077 Hi, Wednesday, January 01, 2003, 4:29:10 PM, jenny_ravenclaw wrote: > If he > had heard as a child that giants were good (let's say he overheard the > twins talking), that's what he would have repeated to Harry... and Ron > would have believed it, still without any proof. Well, this sounds pretty much like the way most children make up their opinions, until life makes it possible for them to change their minds. Ron is only 11 when the series starts out, and most kids I know aren't going on any crusades to prove wrong what they've heard all their lives until much older. Should Ron say to Hermione and Harry that Voldemort might really not be so bad? After all, he's never met the guy personally and only heard about all the horroble things he's supposed to have done? I didn't see Ron be prejudiced against Hagrid, even if he is half giant. If this means he's easily influenced... Hermione is a Muggle and knows nothing about the WW, except what she read in books after receiving her letter. Of course she has to make up her own mind about just about everything, since her family couldn't pass on anything about the WW to her. It's a totally different world for her (and Harry, too. He really *should* read a bit more and try to make up his own mind about all the new things around him. He seems to be pretty content in letting other people tell him about it, without probing any deeper. He shows a surprising lack of curiosity, almost as if he doesn't want to know too much.) I agree that Ron is one of the most "real" people in the HP books, and some people seem to expect entirely too much of the characters . Would we really want only cardboard characters who never make a single mistake? Isn't it easier to identify with characters who have flaws like we all do, and see them overcome some preconceived notions and change their minds, and generally grow up? And more enjoyable to read their story? There is still a lot all of the young characters have to learn (and some of the older ones, too ), and I like to see them struggle with their choices instead of being sure they'll always do what's considered morally right. It would be boring and patronizing and we wouldn't have much to discuss here, I think. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Thu Jan 2 01:12:23 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 20:12:23 EST Subject: TBAY: SILK SHIRTS Message-ID: <10c.1d1bac70.2b44ebf7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49078 Oryomai looks around and notices no one is around. "Hm....I guess they're all at the safe house or watching the SHIPing Wars...." She sees a snake slithering across the sand. "Well...I guess you'll do for introducing my theory. Sorry, I don't speak Parseltongue." She picks up the snake and lets it crawl along her hand. "Here goes nothing - S. I. L. K. S. H. I. R. T. S. (Snape Is Likeable, Kinda. Seriously Has Issues Regarding Time in School) I really think that Snape is a likeable guy. I think that alot of us can see part of ourselves in him (that could be why people hate Snape, we tend to hate what we don't like that we see in ourselves.) and that makes him likeable - to some extent. All of his "issues" that we see (his hate for James, his hate for Lupin, his hate for Sirius, his Dark beginnings, etc.) all stem from his time at Hogwarts. We don't hear anything about his life before Hogwarts or outside of it, and all the bad things we hear stem from what happened during school (The Prank). So, the thing with SILK SHIRTS is that Snape would be a really likeable guy if it wasn't for his mishaps in school. If you remember that he had all that stuff happen to him and realize that *that* is what's making him do the things he does, he's kinda a likeable guy," Oryomai stops. She looks at the snake, "Right?" ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ (Who throws herself at the mercy of the gods of TBAY!) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From suzchiles at pobox.com Thu Jan 2 01:21:59 2003 From: suzchiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 17:21:59 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A detailed analysis of Snape's hatred of Harry (S.N.O.T.) In-Reply-To: <19b.e7367a7.2b44dd15@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49079 SnapesSlytherin says: > Well...he *is* only human. Can anyone honestly say that they > never hated the > people who had everything? (If you think you can, then you were > one of the > people with everything *grin*) I know I can't. You twist > reality in your > mind so that these people are keeping you down, and you deserve the glory. Envy them? Sure. Hated them? Nope. > People do that all the time. When the make fun of someone, they > might not be > making fun of them, but someone like them. I've done it to sibling of my > "enemies". Do you consider this kind of behavior justifiable in an adult? An adult who is a teacher? > I agree with Snape there. I personally cannot stand people who break the > rules and get ahead, while those of us who follow get nowhere. No one is > above the rules. Period. Now, I disagree with you on the "can > vs. must". > Harry doesn't *have* to do anything, he chooses to. Hence, can > wins to me. I want to be sure about this. Does this mean that you would have preferred that Harry not have tried to find the Philosopher's Stone before the bad guy (thought Snape, was Quirrell) and thus ensure that the stone went to Voldemort? Would you have preferred that Harry let Ginny perish in the Chamber of Secrets than to enter the Chamber, kill the Basilisk, destroy the diary and the young Tom Riddle, and let Ginny die? > Ouch. I'd like to think that there are more levels to everyone > than what we > see on the surface... He has his reasons for his hate, and he feels > justified. I know what he means. It's very easy to dwell on events that > happened long in the past if you feel you were extremely wronged. I'm > dwelling on an incident from 5th grade for the love of Salazar Slytherin. > It may be easy to dwell on the past, but it's not something to let go unchallenged. Especially for an adult who is responsible for the teaching and welfare of young people. Suzanne From sharana.geo at yahoo.com Thu Jan 2 01:15:32 2003 From: sharana.geo at yahoo.com (sharana.geo ) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 01:15:32 -0000 Subject: Teaching Unforgivables Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49080 jenny from ravenclaw wrote: > Of course, it is entirely possible that someone else has already > thought of this and if that is the case, I am sorry. Anyway, here > goes: > > For a long time I wondered why Crouch-as-Moody would teach the > Unforgiveables to the students of Hogwarts. Wouldn't he be > hurting the DE cause? Maybe not! I suddenly realized that > perhaps Fake!Moody taught the Unforgiveables to Hogwarts students > as a way of testing them. Once he got a sense of how each student > reacted, he then passed on the information to existing DEs and to > Voldemort himself. For example, we all know that Ron does not > respond well to Imperius and many of us wonder if it will be used > on him in the future. Crouch-as-Moody could be the one to start > the chain that will lead to Imperius!Ron. > >Really, it is an extremely clever way to have access to all the > kids at Hogwarts. Once Voldemort and his followers have all the > notes on the kids, they can then even access the parents as well, > if they choose. The fact that Harry learned to throw the Imperius > Curse strays a bit from my theory, but perhaps young Crouch warned > Voldemort to use his very best and strongest Imperius he could > muster. I'll just chalk that up to Harry surprising them all. I remember reading other people's theories as to why Crouch!Moody taught the kids this curse. I remember 2 of the theories which I believe plausible. First Reason Dumbledore wanted Moody to teach the kids the Unforgivable Curses. I suppose Dumbledore wanted Moody to keep him updated as to how the kids were handling them. If Crouch!Moody refused to teach them or tried to misguide the kids, Dumbledore would immediately suspect that this is not the real Moody (and that would blow up Voldemort's plan). Remember Dumbledore only realized this was a fake Moody when Harry came back with Cedric's dead body and Dumbledore told Moody that he preferred Harry staying with him instead of going to the Hospital wing. Real!Moody wouldn't have taken Harry. I believe this is the main reason. Second Reason >From the beginning, Voldemort and Crouch!Moody's plan was to snatch Harry away from Hogwarts to the graveyard through the Triwizard Cup. So Crouch!Moody had to ensure that Harry won the cup. Maybe he wanted to prevent the other 3 champions, or other DE's (especially those who Crouch despised), from using the Imperius Curse on Harry and messing up Voldemort's plan for Harry to touch the portkeyed Cup. Of course, being Unforgivable Curses, you wouldn't expect the other Champions using them. Your idea (on passing information to the DE's) is a good one. Although at first I thought that Voldemort simply did not know that Harry could fight it, now that I am rereading the scenes of the graveyard, I think it is possible that Voldemort was testing how strong Harry really was. Why? Voldemort decides to have a duel (Ch. 34). He first casts on Harry the Cruciatus Curse which fills Harry with pain, maybe trying to weaken not only Harry's body but also his determination and his concentration. Believing it has been enough pain to undermine him, Voldemort casts the Imperius Curse, but Harry resists it, surprising Voldemort (Voldemort speaks in a quiet voice, and the DE's stop laughing) which throws him another Cruciatus Curse. After this he casts the Killing Curse but his wand locks with Harry's wand. I think the first reason was really important to ensure Voldemort's plan, the second reason was just an added precaution and your idea is a bonus gift for him. Crouch!Moody probably passed out even more information to Voldemort, or at least planned in doing it. Although I believe that some of the kids will be able to increase their abilities after Crouch!Moody has gone, outdating whatever information he could have gathered. There are other good reasons, people have come up with, but I only remember these two. Happy New Year!! Sharana From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Thu Jan 2 01:29:51 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 20:29:51 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] A detailed analysis of Snape's hatred of Harry (S.N.O.T.) Message-ID: <67.61280cb.2b44f00f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49081 In a message dated 1/1/03 8:23:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, suzchiles at pobox.com writes: > I want to be sure about this. Does this mean that you would have preferred > that Harry not have tried to find the Philosopher's Stone before the bad > guy > (thought Snape, was Quirrell) and thus ensure that the stone went to > Voldemort? Would you have preferred that Harry let Ginny perish in the > Chamber of Secrets than to enter the Chamber, kill the Basilisk, destroy > the > diary and the young Tom Riddle, and let Ginny die? Quirrell never could have gotten the Stone. "You see, only one who wanted to *find* the Stone - find it, but not use it - would be able to get it..." (US "adult" paperback, pg. 373). There was no way he could've gotten it, and Dumbledore would've gotten there and stopped him (I fully believe in the power of Dumbledore!). But that's not what I meant. I didn't mean that I thought that Harry should let Ginny die, let Riddle get out, let the Basilisk get loose, or let Quirrel get the Stone (even though he couldn't). I meant that Harry had a choice. He didn't have to go down there (either time), he chose to. I think he made the right choice, but my point was that there *was* a choice - no one was standing there with a wand to his head *coughLockhartcough*. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 2 02:03:32 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214 ) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 02:03:32 -0000 Subject: A detailed analysis of Snape's hatred of Harry (S.N.O.T.) In-Reply-To: <19b.e7367a7.2b44dd15@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49082 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: > Diana: > That is why Snape enjoys picking on Harry so very much ?V he??s not punishing > > Harry, but James in the secret recesses of his heart. > > Me: > People do that all the time. When the make fun of someone, they might not be > making fun of them, but someone like them. I've done it to sibling of my > "enemies". Now me: But if you were a teacher (or maybe you are a teacher, I don't know :o)), would you do it to the children of your enemies? In my opinion nothing justifies harrassing your students, those weaker than you are. Those, who can't fight back. I don't mind Snape holding grudges against Black or Lupin. They can and will fight back. But Harry and Nevill is a different story. I detest his teaching style. Please keep in mind that I want Snape to have a good reason for his treatment of Harry. I will be very happy, if at the end it turns out that he had to treat Harry that way, but if the only reason of his harassment was the fact that he was executing revenge on Harry, because James was dead, Snape will become one of my most disliked characters, instead one of my favourites. No, I don't think he is evil. But if he is really the kind of teacher he seems to be, he is worse than evil. He is pathetic human being, who should not be anywhere near children. I am sorry, I am very passionate about this subject. I have a tremendous respect for teaching profession. Before coming to the States I was training to be a teacher and I was blessed with fantastic teachers all my life. I know if I ever had a teacher like Snape, I would not be able to suceed ever. > Me: > But it's true. Harry gets all kind of perks. In CoS, when they drive that > car to school, the punishment should've been more severe. Muggles were > alerted to the existence of magic! Dumbledore, and everyone else, has a soft > spot for Harry. He just wants to be another kid. But, with all his special > treatment, he isn't. Well, I am glad you acknowledge that Harry just wants to be another kid. Whatever attention he gets from the wizarding world, he did not ask for. If Snape is gealous or envious, it is his problem. I do not think that Harry gets special attention from Hogwarts teachers though. McGonagall sent him a broom, true. But at the same time she did not hesitate to take fifty points from three of them in the first book. And even if he got some extra attention from Hogwarts staff, whatever negelct and abuse he experiences at Dursleys cancels it out, in my opinion. > Diana: > So, to conclude, Snape is an unpleasant, hateful, spiteful and petty > person. > > Me: > Ouch. I'd like to think that there are more levels to everyone than what we > see on the surface... He has his reasons for his hate, and he feels > justified. I know what he means. It's very easy to dwell on events that > happened long in the past if you feel you were extremely wronged. I'm > dwelling on an incident from 5th grade for the love of Salazar Slytherin. > > In *my* closing, Snape is not S.N.O.T. ... Snape is S.I.L.K. (Snape is > likeable...kinda.) Alot of people can relate to the feeling of being shunted > to the side by the golden boys, watching them gleefully break the rules and > almost never get caught - and on the rare occasions they *do* get caught, the > y are not severly punished. I agree with Snape on alot of things. Me: Yes, I am very intrigued by Snape right now and he is one of my favourites so far. Nevertheless, I may understand whatever resentment Snape feels toward Marauders, but at this point in the series, I don't find Snape's treatment of Harry justifiable at all. He is a teacher, Harry is his student. In my opinion, his personal feelings should not matter one bit. It is his problem, not Harry's. Alla From Sunnylove0 at aol.com Thu Jan 2 02:17:21 2003 From: Sunnylove0 at aol.com (Sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 21:17:21 EST Subject: Alley OoP! Predictions/Deaths Etc Message-ID: <116.1cc012da.2b44fb31@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49083 My personal predictions: Book 5: Female DADA teacher, likely Arabella Figg. Hagrid, Madame Maxime, and possibly Hagrid's mom die Mysterious deaths and disapperances start again (Fudge remains in denial) Harry goes to Godric's Hollow (we still haven't found out why the house was destroyed or how Baby Harry survived it) Harry will visit his parents' graves, and get more of James and Lily's life story Percy will choose his side or get killed, or both. Dennis Creevey will die. Book 6: Evil!McGonagall, if she exists, will be exposed and leave to join Voldemort. (If she kills Dumbledore first, move to Book 7) Malfoy will acquire a Firebolt and beat Harry to the snitch predicting that: Harry will attempt to kill Voldemort and fail. More deaths and disapperances, probably including Lupin and Arthur and Molly Weasley. Rita Skeeter will spill the hospital wing beans (if not in Book 5) Book 7: Draco will choose his side. Both he and Lucius will die. Dumbledore will die halfway through the book (not of AK). He will give Harry some much needed tips on his deathbed. One or more of the Trio will die. Harry will defeat Voldemort in a forest in Albania (The Forest of Shadows, hence the rumored title) McGonagall will die. (Evil or otherwise) Snape will help Harry defeat Voldemort, finally be redeemed of his DE past, and elope with someone (please, not Rita Skeeter!) The Queen of Serpents [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Thu Jan 2 06:23:51 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 01:23:51 -0500 Subject: Snape's Teaching Sytle (WAS: Re: A detailed analysis of Snape's hatred of Harry (S.N.O.T.) Message-ID: <3F4EC403.62A60468.F1060DB4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49084 In a message dated 1/1/2003 9:03:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com writes: > but at this point in the series, I > don't find Snape's treatment of Harry justifiable at all. He is a > teacher, Harry is his student. In my opinion, his personal > feelings > should not matter one bit. It is his problem, not Harry's. (I've been sick lately, so I haven't been following the threads too closely. Sorry if any of you have Deja vu ^^;) I think Snape's teaching style is entirely justifiable, though not in the way you want it to be. This may just be MHO (note the sarcasm, please), but I don't think Snape likes teaching. I think he's just doing it for Dumbledore's sake. Snape is a great pessimist. Instead of making the best of his situation, he does all he can to make the worst of it. Let's look at the case of Neville Longbottom. I imagine Snape gets extremely frustrated with the boy because he never seems to grasp anything. Snape just doesn't have the patience to be a teacher, and I don't imagine he's going to try to gain that patience because he's so pessimistic about his situation. Now, I'm not saying this makes the way he teaches right in any way. However, it is a reason. ~Cassie~ From mrleach74 at msn.com Thu Jan 2 04:10:14 2003 From: mrleach74 at msn.com (gryffindor02356 ) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 04:10:14 -0000 Subject: Sympathetic Slytherins, Snape (was Howdy; ponderings) In-Reply-To: <949mmc+vmro@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49085 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amy " wrote: > As for other children-of-the-damned,* we know there's a Nott in > Harry's year but we don't know what house he/she got put in. He/she > could defy blood and be a goodie in 5-6-7. > In Book 1, there is a Nott in Harry's class. In book 4, a Death Eater named Nott apparated to Voldemort's graveyard. Might Harry's classmate be a son or daughter of that particular Death Eater? Matt aka. gryffindor02356 From sammerz2388 at aol.com Thu Jan 2 05:01:54 2003 From: sammerz2388 at aol.com (sammerz2388 ) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 05:01:54 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Trip/Penelope and the Death/Ron's Motivation Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49086 It came to me as I read... bboy_mn wrote: ....The new place in the wizard's world that Harry will visit. Could it be Godric's Hollow, Egypt, the Ministry of Magic, or .... perhaps Azkaban? What if, in an effort to clear Sirius's name, the Ministry agrees to a new impartial and fair trial during which they will weigh the original evidence and the new evidence, and make a new ruling on Sirius's guilt or innocents. But, the only way the Ministry will consider it, is if Sirius turns himself in as a show of good faith. Which means that until the end of the trial, Sirius is back in Azkaban. OR... it could be a sham of a trial and Sirius, despite four witnesses and Dumblefore's support, is convict, or worse yet, they change their mind about the trial and send him to Azakaban ,and maybe even to the Dementor's kiss. I see a shame of a trial, execution of the kiss set for a later date. Dumbledore, Harry, and Company must break into Azkaban which is now thought to be under the assumed influence of Voldemort, and break Sirius out. and I write: Other people have also commented of the possibiloty that Harry's visit will be to Azkaban. I agree, but what about the possibility that he's not *visiting*, but he's a (dun-dun-dun) *prisoner*? It seems obvious to me - Azkaban *is* a prison, and when I thought of Harry's potential "visit" to Azkaban, I immediately thought of him being there for the reason everyone else there, is. Okay, yes, *why* would Harry Potter be in Azkaban? Well, it's not like he hasn't been involved in some pretty risky business. Time- turning, assosciating with criminals on the lam, using an invisible cloak and a "dangerous" map to stick his nose where it doesn't belong - IMO, actions that could get a young wizard in quite a load of trouble. What's to say he isn't going to continue with this risky behavior - but this time, he's caught! Or perhaps just found out by the wrong person... And I don't see the question of, "Yes, but he's a student.. wouldn't the MoM have qualms about sending someone *so* young to Azkaban?" It's fair to say Harry's been treated abnormally his whole life. Allowed to have a broom as a first year, allowed to participat in the Triwizard Tournament at the tender age of fourteen - being sent to Azkaban while still going through puberty doesn't seem like too much of a stretch, does it? ;-) There's still the question of *what* Harry would do to receive such a punishment, but I fear trying to imagine all the possible scenarios that Harry could get himself into, would severely stress the limits of my already-aching head...or maybe I'm just afraid to try :-) Oh, and to ease my deathly fear of submitting a too-short post, my attempt at combining two... Someone (I *think* Richelle) listed Penelope Clearwater as a death for Book 6. We've all been discussing Percy's possible move to the Dark Side and back, etc. - is it possible good ol' Penelope could play a role? Maybe Percy *will* move to Voldemort's side, but an incident with Penelope will make him see what's right. I don't know...it seemed a lot more plausible before I wrote it out :-) And also, this: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "draco382 " wrote: > -- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jcminjapan " > wrote: > >I am myself debating on who will die > > in the next book. Personally my choices are Hagrid or Mr. > Weasely. > > Both seem to fit into JKR`s description. For this post I will > stick > > with why I think it will be Mr. Weasely. > > This may create some waves for those in the Ron Weasely camp (of > course, I too belong there much of the time :-) but I feel that in > order for Ron to be actively involved in the war against Voldemort, > he needs some sort of impetus. Could Percy's switch to the Dark Side be a motivation for Ron? IMO seeing his brother succumb to Voldemort would be quite a load of "inspiration"...if you're of the opinion that Ron hasn't quite enough reasons to fight passionately against Voldemort just yet. :-) That's all I dare to say for today, for fear I'd make an even bigger fool of myself... Samantha, who fears her (some would say) tender age is showing in her post...and thinks there are a lot more yung'ns lurking out there then anyone expects :-) From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Thu Jan 2 02:02:41 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 20:02:41 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Book Review: The Ivory Tower and Harry Potter (long) References: Message-ID: <3E139DC1.D93D444E@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49087 "jenny_ravenclaw " wrote: > > Ron makes a lot of assumptions and relies quite heavily on > stereotypes. He even jumped to conclusions about his best friend over > > the Triwizard Tournament and assumed Harry somehow tricked the goblet > without ever confirming that with Harry himself. Unfortunately Ron > is, IMO, often a very accurate representation of real people - don't > you think? > > You mean like Ron's assumptions about 'all Slytherins being bad wizards'. (or evil wizards, as I doubt they would all would be bad.. They could in fact be good evil wizards? Good at magic, that is.) ;) Jazmyn From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Jan 2 07:51:46 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 23:51:46 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Book Review: The Ivory Tower and Harry Potter (long) In-Reply-To: <3E139DC1.D93D444E@pacificpuma.com> References: <3E139DC1.D93D444E@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: <15381903452.20030101235146@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 49088 Hi, Wednesday, January 01, 2003, 6:02:41 PM, jazmyn wrote: > You mean like Ron's assumptions about 'all Slytherins being bad > wizards'. (or evil wizards, as I doubt they would all would be bad.. Wasn't it *Hagrid* who said that all the witches/wizards who went bad, came from Slytherin? He didn't imply that all Slytherins were bad or went bad, IIRC. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Thu Jan 2 08:21:47 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana ) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 08:21:47 -0000 Subject: analysis of Snape's hatred of Harry (S.N.O.T.) -CORRECTION In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49089 I wrote: > Why *would* Snape hold such a deep hatred for James for so many > years? Well, I would say that Snape went to Hogwart's with a vision > of himself as *the* person [instead of James] who *deserved* the > popularity, athletic ability and fun-loving personality that James > must have had. The problem was that Snape didn't have any of those > things and these are things that can be gained by waving a magic > wand and wishing them to be so. When, for want of a better Dratted MS spellcheck! That should have been "The problem was that Snape didn't have any of those things and these are things that CAN'T be gained by waving a magic wand and wishing them to be so." Sorry for all the weird punctuation, too, I didn't know that my MS Word was going to mangle my post like that. Urgh. Diana From siskoodo at aol.com Thu Jan 2 12:04:07 2003 From: siskoodo at aol.com (bobby ) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 12:04:07 -0000 Subject: analysis of Snape's hatred of Harry (S.N.O.T.) -CORRECTION In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49090 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Diana " wrote: > I wrote: > > Why *would* Snape hold such a deep hatred for James for so many > > years? Well, I would say that Snape went to Hogwart's with a > vision > > of himself as *the* person [instead of James] who *deserved* the > > popularity, athletic ability and fun-loving personality that James > > must have had. The problem was that Snape didn't have any of > those > > things and these are things that can be gained by waving a magic > > wand and wishing them to be so. When, for want of a better > > > Dratted MS spellcheck! That should have been "The problem was that > Snape didn't have any of those things and these are things that > CAN'T be gained by waving a magic wand and wishing them to be so." > Sorry for all the weird punctuation, too, I didn't know that my MS > Word was going to mangle my post like that. > > Urgh. In our society we see hatred like this being played out on the news all the time. columbine for instance. What is it like to be onthe outside looking in? How does it feel to be made fun of, to be the butt of the joke? You are not the jock the cheerleader the class president. You have intelligence and talent, but so what others get all the credit, the love the admiration. Some people never recover from this, others go on and live fruitful lives but never think fondly on their high school/Jr high days. So here we have Snape. He gets an education, he is bright and he comes back to teach at the place where others made fun of him, used him as a target for their pranks. Now he is in a position of power and respect. All of a sudden, along comes the son of one of the chief pranksters, one of the people he hated in school. The boy looks like his father and from the start is a celebrity. He begins to get away with all the things the father did. History repeats itself. Snape responds in an inappropriate manner but one that psychology speaking is right for him. Just my thought. bobby From chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com Thu Jan 2 15:21:51 2003 From: chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com (alora ) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 15:21:51 -0000 Subject: Godric's Hollow/place Harry visits Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49091 I was reading all the different possible places Harry might visit in Book 5. I definitely think he will visit Godric's Hollow, at some point. But what will be there? I got to thinking that maybe it is an out-of-the-way muggle village, and that maybe Harry's parents were friends with some of the people there. Wouldn't it be wonderful if Harry could find out more about what sort of people they were? Maybe there were even a few close friends that knew what they were. Who knows? It would be even better if Harry's parents had left some special keepsakes with a close friend, on the chance that Harry would come back someday - after all, they did know that V was after them. My personal theory is that if/when Harry does go back to Godric's Hollow, that he will visit the place where the house once stood and he will "see" it. I don't mean it is still standing, but I think it would be interesting if his parents had worked some sort of spell where he could see a ghostly image of the house only Harry could see - maybe even walk through it. I know, I'm reaching, but wouldn't it be wonderful for him? Wishful thinking, I suppose, but it would be a way for him to connect to his parents. Just a theory to while away the time, waiting for book 5 Alora From rvotaw at i-55.com Thu Jan 2 16:17:40 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 10:17:40 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Trip/Penelope and the Death References: Message-ID: <00c701c2b27a$79584f20$3aa2cdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 49092 Samantha writes: > Other people have also commented of the possibiloty that Harry's > visit will be to Azkaban. I agree, but what about the possibility > that he's not *visiting*, but he's a (dun-dun-dun) *prisoner*? It > seems obvious to me - Azkaban *is* a prison, and when I thought of > Harry's potential "visit" to Azkaban, I immediately thought of him > being there for the reason everyone else there, is. > There's still the question of *what* Harry would do to receive such a > punishment, but I fear trying to imagine all the possible scenarios > that Harry could get himself into, would severely stress the limits > of my already-aching head...or maybe I'm just afraid to try :-) That would certainly be an unexpected plot twist. I, like you, don't have the energy to think of how Harry could manage it, but with his luck you never know. Still, I somehow don't think JKR would do that to Harry. For one thing look at how he reacted to one dementor on the train. He didn't stand a chance against a whole slew of dementors in the Quidditch match. And then there was the one boggart/dementor with Lupin. He passed out every time, until the very end of his lessons when he could barely hold it off. Then by the end of PoA he manages the Patronus when it's basically a life or death situation. It's possible Harry could handle a brief visit to Azkaban, but as a prisoner? He wouldn't stand a chance. Who knows what would happen to Harry if he were left with dementors past the point of passing out. Every other time Lupin or Dumbledore was there to step in. I just don't think he could handle it. If he meets one dementor, sure, cast a patronus. Two or three? Okay, maybe. A prison full of them 24 hours a day? No way. Samantha again: > Someone (I *think* Richelle) listed Penelope Clearwater as a death > for Book 6. We've all been discussing Percy's possible move to the > Dark Side and back, etc. - is it possible good ol' Penelope could > play a role? Maybe Percy *will* move to Voldemort's side, but an > incident with Penelope will make him see what's right. Yes, that was me. I think JKR dropped Penelope for a reason. I do think Percy still has feelings for her, though we've been left to think he's forgotten she exists. Of course, we don't see into Percy that much as we only see him through Harry's eyes. Anyway, I think Penelope's death could play a role in turning Percy. I'm not saying she's dispensible, but compared to, say, any of the Weasleys, it would be less traumatic. Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From soccergurl512 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 2 16:11:49 2003 From: soccergurl512 at yahoo.com (soccergurl512 ) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 16:11:49 -0000 Subject: Harry dying Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49093 HI I am new to this board, and I was reading some back posts about who would die next, and I had a though. I think that maybe Harry would die (or be captured by Voldie) and then Hermionie and Ron would have to rescure him or some how bring him back to life. What do you guys think? Jenny From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Thu Jan 2 17:00:59 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 12:00:59 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry dying Message-ID: <433B4A65.6D6F4822.F1060DB4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49094 In a message dated 1/2/2003 11:11:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, soccergurl512 at yahoo.com writes: > I am new to this board, and I was reading some back posts about > who would die next, and I had a though. I think that maybe Harry would die (or be captured by Voldie) and then Hermionie and Ron would > have to rescure him or some how bring him back to life. > What do you > guys think? Welcome! Well, if Harry did die I don't think Hermione/Ron would be able to bring it back. For the life of me I can't remember where the quote is, but I'm 100% sure that somewhere in the books/a JKR interview it says that the dead cannot be brought back to life. Of course, that doesn't eliminate your other idea. I don't, however, think that Harry will ever truely be put into the victim's place. No matter what happens...even if he's tortured or abandoned by his friends, Harry always manages to stay strong. ~Cassie~ From annemehr at yahoo.com Thu Jan 2 17:40:14 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr ) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 17:40:14 -0000 Subject: TBAY: MD and Alternate Theories Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49095 Annemehr knocked on the door of the Safe House. Light, quick footsteps could be heard approaching from the other side, and the door swung open silently to reveal an eager-looking House Elf. "Hello, miss," said the Elf. "May I help you?" Annemehr smiled tentatively and replied, "Hello. You must be Sneaky! My name is Annemehr, and I've been wanting to visit the Safe House for a while now. Are any of the MDDT available, or should I come back some other time?" "Oh, yes, come in, miss!" said Sneaky, who turned to lead the way inside. As they entered the living room, Annemehr suddently felt twice as nervous - it was rather more crowded in here than she had imagined it would be. The absence of any large Grey Wolves may or may not have helped - she had always found him quite courteous in their correspondance but wondered how it would feel to meet him in person. Oh well - perhaps another day. Sneaky introduced the visitor to Pip and Melody, who said hello in a friendly way. Then Melody turned to the others. "Annemher, I'd like you to meet some friends of ours. This is Elkins, and Eloise, and Cindy. We were just discussing CHOPping wood." "Er, pleased to meet you," stuttered Annemehr. She hoped her reddening face didn't look too ridiculous. She certainly hadn't counted on meeting so many important TBAY citizens all at once! "What brings you to the bay?" asked Elkins in a kindly way. "Well," Annemher began, "there are two things. I have a little catboat I am building in the shipyard out by the docks. I am naming it the MALEVOLENCE - you know, "Malfoy's Affluence Lends Effectiveness: Veiledly Opposes Longbottoms' Escaping Needless Cruciatus Effects. (msg. #48316)" I aready have some nice can(n)ons for it, but I won't be ready to launch it without a mast or a sail. For a mast, I need to know, what kind of thing could the Longbottoms have to say or do, that makes Lucius Malfoy feel he needs to keep them incapacitated. And, I also need a sail (preferably a black one), or my little boat will never get anywhere - why does Malfoy need to keep them alive? Why not just have them killed? If anyone can think of any way to help me out with this, I'd be grateful. I've never built a boat before " "Anyway, on to the reason for my visit to the Safe House. Ever since I heard of the MAGIC DISHWASHER, I have been intrigued by it, although my immediate reaction to it was that it couldn't be true. Eventually I became comfortable with the theory and the morality behind it, thanks to Grey Wolf and Melody answering a few of my questions on the main list. I also promised Grey Wolf in a private email that I would reexamine PoA in light of my new insights into the theory. "Anyway, I did reread the shrieking shack scene to look for possible interpretations, although it wasn't easy because the book kept disappearing on me -- my husband has been reading it to my son. I ended up with three interpretations, all of which seem valid to me." "Okay," said Pip. "Let's see what you've got, then!" Annemher looked around the room. Melody certainly looked interested, and Pip also, although she looked a little wary, too. Elkins and Eloise exchanged a glance that might have said, here we go again, and Annemehr spotted Cindy beginning to stroke her paddle lightly. Annemehr took a deep breath and plunged in. Or rather, she would have plunged in if Sneaky had not at that very moment, pressed a cup of tea into her trembling fingers. Annemehr had a sip, and then she plunged in "First of all, there is the straightforward interpretation. Lupin has been given the DADA job because he might also be a help in defending the school and Harry from the murderous Sirius Black, whom everyone believes to be the guilty one. Events unfold until the SS scenes where Lupin, and then the trio, come to believe in Black's innocence, and Pettigrew is exposed - unfortunately, while Snape is lying on the floor unconscious. This is the way I naturally read it, but I'm also aware that reading these books that way is going to cause me to be fooled over and over! Still, it's a perfectly valid possibility." "A little boring, maybe," said Pip quietly to Cindy. "Oh, not really," put in Eloise. "It is quite a touching scene in itself, as a way for Harry to find out some things about his father's old friends. She smiled encouragingly at Annemehr. "Yes," Annemehr continued. "The second interpretation came to me when something struck me about a line of Pettigrew's, when he was trying to defend his spying for Voldemort: 'He - he was taking over everywhere!' gasped Pettigrew. 'Wh - what was there to be gained by refusing him?' "You see? What was to be gained by _refusing him! Don't you think Pettigrew would be the type to want to lie low all through VW1 and try to weather the storm? He probalbly would not dream of going to Voldemort on his own. I think it entirely likely that Voldemort captured Pettigrew to force him to turn spy, because he knew Pettigrew would be a useful way to get at the Potters. And just how did Voldemort know about Pettigrew? From his DE Snape, of course! Snape fingered Pettigrew to Voldemort as a patsy who liked to hang around wizards more powerful than himself and who was sure to fold in the face of Voldemort's superior power. Not long after this, Snape left to spy for Dumbledore. As Snape obviously never told Dumbledore that Pettigrew was now working for Voldemort, this has to be an Evil Double-Agent Snape Theory. Snape knew that Pettigrew could transform into a rat, but even after Voldemort was vaporised, the two of them, while they hated each other, never outed one another for fear of blowing their own covers, so they lay low in their own positions. Then the SS scene plays out in a similar way to MD, only Snape is trying to prevent his own exposure, not help Dumbledore send Voldmort a servant tainted by a life-debt. Furthermore, Snape can well afford Pettigrew to return to help the Dark Lord return because he can then reassume his double-agent role with loyalty to Voldemort, since he had kept Pettigrew's secret. On the other hand, if Voldemort does not succeed in regaining power, Snape merely retains his position at Hogwarts as long as he has to. As far as I can tell, this theory is also consistent with canon. "Finally, I considered MAGIC DISWASHER. The only possible canon that I could find against it is the presence of Lupin. To me, Lupin seems to genuinely believe that Sirius was the traitor until the moment in the shrieking shack when he realises that Sirius had switched with Pettigrew. So why is he at Hogwarts? Under MD, Dumbledore can not have hired him to help protect Harry from Sirius. He must then have hired him either because: 1) Lupin was truly the only one available for the DADA job, or 2) so Lupin could help control Sirius should he manage to get into the castle prematurely -because Sirius is rather a loose canon and Lupin would be an extra insurance policy. But if #2 is true, then why didn't Dumbledore tell him about Pettigrew? Pip and Melody, I'm sure this must have been brought up before, but I couldn't find it anywhere." Annemher took another sip of her neglected tea and came to the point. "I like MD as a theory, especially if you can help me with that one question I raised. But I don't see how I can choose it over the other two. They are all perfectly valid under canon as far as I can see, and I only have emotional reasons for preferring the first one - that unless I make a conscious effort not to, I naturally read the book that way, and I would think it more interesting to have Snape as the tortured good guy than an evil double-agent. I can't say that I think any one of them is more likely to be truer than the others. I certainly believe in the Safe House, and I like the fact that the dishwasher is here. And, I am prepared to defend its existence if it's attacked. So where does that leave me? "Pip and Melody, do you believe that MD is THE correct theory, until proven otherwise? - or is it just A valid theory to you? Am I a candidate for the Safe House or a friendly visitor when I come to the 'BAY?" Annemher gazed out the windows at the sun-filled bay, where the storm-clouds seemed to have receeded to the horizon. She thought she was going to like it here, wherever she ended up. ---------------------------------------------------------- Annemehr From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Jan 2 17:44:05 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 12:44:05 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] A detailed analysis of Snape's hatred of Harry (S.N.O.T.) Message-ID: <19a.e4b73b8.2b45d465@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49096 Diana: Not knowing Snape's true history with the Death Eaters, I don't know > > if Snape was always a spy for Dumbledore or is a former evil DE now > working for the good side. However, this does not affect my theory, > which I've called S.N.O.T. or Snape the Nasty Odious Twit. ;) Eloise: Ooh. Well, I can't let that go unchallenged, now, can I? I firmly believe that Snape *is* a former, evil, fully paid-up DE. But that's in the past and as you say, it doesn't really affect the current argument. I would object to the "Twit" epithet, though. Emotionally immature, yes, but not a twit. We had a thread a while back in which Snape's competence was ably demonstrated to the satisfactoin of all. Well, all of his fans, anyway! ;-) > > Let's start with Snape as a child in school. I imagine Snape is > very much like Draco Malfoy at that age. Sirius even says in PoA, > while explaining the "prank" they played on Snape to H/H/R in the > Shrieking Shack, that Malfoy was always sneaking around trying to > catch James, Remus and Sirius (and probably that rat Peter) doing > something against the rules so they would be expelled. This is what > Malfoy does constantly - try to get Harry expelled. Eloise: I *do* think we're supposed to read Draco as a pattern for the young Snape - up to a point. But we don't know about their respective backgrounds. I *suspect* Snape's is fairly "good", in the sense of being pretty well-born, almost certainly pure-blood, but we have no proof of that. One big difference between Draco and the adult Snape is that Snape never gives any hint of believing in pure-blood supremacy. Now this *could* be a change of heart since his DE days, but I'm not convinced. None of the adults who knew Snape as a child ever suggest that he is or was prejudiced. Where I believe there *is* a similarity is in their relationships with their fathers. I believe they both have/had rather cold relationships, ones where they never quite lived up to expectation. I believe this from what we see of Draco's relationship with Lucius and from Snape's current behaviour. I am one of those who believes that Snape looks towards Dumbledore as a father-figure. I believe also that he may take a parental (if inappropriate) attitude towards Draco, favouring him *because* he didn't receive favour as a child, making up for the deficiencies of his own childhood. Diana: > Snape was jealous of James' popularity, skill at Quidditch and his > small group of close-knit friends, all of which Harry now has at > Hogwart??s. Eloise: But Snape was part of his own gang of Slytherins. We don't *know* that Snape was jealous of James' relationships. Yes, it is Lupin's perception that he was jealous of James' Quidditch skills and I accept that. In fact, I take it very seriously and deduce from it (and the fact that the staff accepted that he should referee a match) that he was no mean player himself. Only a good player would be *jealous* of a superlative one. Of course, he doesn't have a group of close-knit friends *now*, as they all ended up dead or in Azkaban. Even twelve years after James' death, Snape says, > > sneeringly, "...a little talent on the Quidditch field..." with > great derision while interrogating Harry after Harry's head was seen > by Malfoy in Hogsmeade [PoA]. He even attributes "strutting" to > James, and to Harry, though nothing in canon suggests that James > actually strutted around the school. [C'mon, we all know James > didn't strut, right?] Eloise: Do we? I don't suppose he *did*, actually ;-). But I wouldn't mind betting that Harry's parents were a little more human than the plaster saints he's been led to believe they were so far. Diana: We know for a fact Harry doesn't "strut". > > These are all comments made by a man so overcome with jealousy he's > poisoning himself with it (figuratively, of course). Eloise: Yes, he *is* jealous. But I'm not so sure that he's really jealous about all that stuff in his past. *I* believe that it's Harry himself of whom he's jealous. You see, although I believe that Snape *has* redeemed himself, I don't think he has in his own eyes. He still needs to do something *big*. And he's a control-freak, so he needs to do it *himself*. As far as we know, he was passing on information to Dumbledore. But he failed to give the information that brought down Voldemort: Harry did that. He failed to protect the Philosopher's Stone: Harry did that, too. Diana: > His jealously of James runs so deep that he's still obsessed by how, > in his own eyes as well as other's eyes, he failed to measure up to > James while in school. I mean James and his wife Lily were murdered > thirteen years ago and their only child has been living with > hateful, spiteful nitwit Muggles! That??s an amazingly long-lasting > and unceasing rage of jealousy for a person to maintain!. Eloise: It is, but no more amazing than someone else's inability to regret nearly getting him killed at school or get over his own childish grudge. But I don't think it's his failure to measure up to James at school that's the problem. I mean yes, the two of them detested each other and I don't see any reason why he should like him any better now he's dead. Diana: > Despite Snape??s mistaken belief that James only > saved Snape from Wolf!Lupin to save himself from being expelled, > Snape still owes James a life debt, which according to Dumbledore is > a serious thing in the Wizarding World. Snape would then owe a life > debt to a person he loathes and envies more than anything in the > world ?V a person who Snape felt engineered the saving of his life > [by endangering it in the first place] thus causing a life-debt for > purely selfish reasons. If Snape ever actually believed that James > had no foreknowledge of the prank and saved his life just because it > was the right thing to do, then Snape??s head would probably explode > in a fit of catastrophic jealousy. After all, this would mean James > may have been *worth* all the popularity and attention because he > was a heroic and genuinely good person. This is not a view Snape > can ever accept for his own peace of mind. Eloise: But there's an alternative view of the long-term outcome of the Prank and the life-debt thing. If we're right (and there's no proof, I know) that it was Snape who provided the information that Lily and James > were in danger, if he > really *did* try to save the life of the man he hated (and pay back his > life-debt in addition) and then because of James' pig-headedness, he ended > up getting himself killed anyway.......Well, I can see someone like Snape > being pretty angry. He made Snape *fail*. I mean, the man just can't get a break with this redemption thing, can he? If he's envious of James, well, I think it's because James didn't make the same mistakes he did. Because James saw Voldmort for what he was. Because James died a hero. I'm sure Snape would give his life to defeat Voldemort - we see that at the end of GoF. I think he'd rather be a dead hero than a live failure. > Eloise: I largely concur. I just don't think it's the whole story. > <>So, Snape is > cruel [??I see no difference.?? to Hermione??s overgrown teeth in GoF, > for example] to Hermione and Ron because he sees them as living > examples of Harry??s undeserved popularity and *better* life. Eloise: I completely agree that Snape dislikes Hermione and Ron *because* of their association with Harry. Although I think he has problems with Hermione in her own right. Diana: > <>Like James, Harry also gets away with breaking the rules, a lot, and > gets a lot of breaks. In Snape??s view, this is another unfair perk > that both James enjoyed and Harry enjoys while at Hogwarts. What > Snape doesn??t realize in his obsessive hatred of all things James > and Harry, is that Harry breaks the rules not because he *can*, but > because he *must*. Harry doesn??t go after the Sorcerer??s Stone for > fun ?V he goes to stop Voldemort from getting it first. Harry > doesn??t go into the Chamber of Secrets because he??s just curious > what??s in there ?V he goes to save Ginny??s life. Harry doesn??t > *consort* [Snape??s word, not mine] with werewolves and murderers > because he thinks he??s immune from punishment or injury, but because > he was trying to save Ron from being eaten by an enormous black > dog. Eloise: I wonder how much Snape actually broke the rules at school? Sneaking around after MWPP after hours? Mmm. Harry and the rule-breaking. As you say it's *why* he breaks the rules that is crucial. One of the things we have discussed before is Snape's relationship with Dumbledore. I think it is quite clear that Snape disagrees with Dumbledore over the way he treats Harry. What isn't clear is *why* he disagrees. It's quite possible that it *is* simply petty jealousy. OTOH, it could also be partially (or completely) because Harry's rule-breaking is often pretty life-endangering. I do believe that he might have the same concerns as many listies express over Dumbledore's apparent willingness to subject, or at least condone Harry subjecting himself to danger. At the very least, since he seems to have decided that he can pay of his life-debt by protecting Harry, I think he's pretty keen that the brat doesn't go and get himself killed! I have in the past noted that Snape's anger against Harry at times seem paternal. Specifically, I quoted the Hogsmeade incident. It seems quite clear to me that Snape *knew* that Harry was going to try to sneak into Hogsmeade. He had a shrewd idea of the route he was going to take. He tried to prevent it, but Harry got the better of him. I genuinely believe that he was trying to protect him from Sirius Black and that he was livid with him for putting himself at so much risk. Just as a parent can be livid with a child who has deliberately defied rules put in place for their safety. Then there's the Shrieking Shack. Like father, like son. James *did* lose his life because he arrogantly trusted Sirius (his opinion, rather than his ability to keep a secret). I'm sure Snape *did* believe he had saved Harry's life at that point. Only the wretched child wouldn't admit it.
<> And finally, a comment from Alla: I am sorry, I am very passionate about this subject. I have a tremendous respect for teaching profession. Before coming to the States I was training to be a teacher and I was blessed with fantastic teachers all my life. I know if I ever had a teacher like Snape, I would not be able to suceed ever. Eloise: Me too. But that, according to JKR, is not Dumbledore's opionion: Q.Why does Professor Dumbledore allow Professor Snape to be so nasty to the students (especially to Harry, Hermione, and Neville)? JKR: Dumbledore believes there are all sorts of lessons in life... horrible teachers like Snape are one of them! (Yahooligan! Chat, Oct 20, 2000). The education Hogwarts provides is somewhat, er, robust, isn't it? ~Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From oppen at mycns.net Thu Jan 2 17:45:41 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 11:45:41 -0600 Subject: Harry in Azkaban? Message-ID: <00fd01c2b286$db2e4680$64560043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 49097 While I think Harry going to Azkaban might well happen, I do _not_ think that he'd be there because of being sentenced there. He _is_ "The Boy Who Lived," and we've seen that WW trials are no more immune to the effects of celebrities' fame than RW trials are...*cough Ludo Bagman cough cough* Another possibility, I fear, is that one or both of the Trio _other than Harry_ might end up there. I fear for Hermione in particular---what she did with Rita Skeeter could easily be far worse under WW law than Rita's being an unregistered Animagus and all-around pest, nuisance, and disgrace to the journalistic profession (as, I believe, she would be to _any_ profession, even one involving standing around on street corners in skimpy attire, trying to get the attention of male passers-by). She's also done other things that could get her into Very Deep Kimchee...stealing Snape's supplies, brewing illegal Polyjuice Potion, accessory before-and-after-the-fact to impersonation, aiding-and-abetting Sirius Black's and Buckbeak's escape...oh, the list goes on and on, and _unlike Harry,_ she doesn't have the protection of fame. She's also a "Mudblood," one step above a Muggle to many wizards and witches, DE and not, and doesn't have a family that knows the ins-and-outs of the Wizard World well enough to defend her. No doubt, the Weasleys would go all-out trying to help her, but I don't know how much they could do. Poor Hermione could well end up as a scapegoat...the evil "Mudblood" who led poor, slightly-crazy Harry Potter astray, and led him into a life of crime..."well, you _know_ how those Mudbloods are, don't you? Can't trust a one of them!" You know, if she _did_ end up in Azkaban at the end of the next book, that would be a heck of a cliff-hanger, and would give Harry something interesting to do all summer long instead of moping about the Dursleys---plotting the Great Escape. He's got an expert available, after all, the one man who cracked out of Azkaban and made it to freedom. However, _Ron_ could also wind up in the stripey hole. Whether his resentment at being poor leads him to do things he shouldn't, or a prank goes horribly wrong, or he gets framed. However, unlike Harry and Hermione, he _does_ know his way around the wizarding world, and has a family that does have some pull there. --Eric, who suddenly noticed how much he sounds like Professor Trelawney From murray at via.ecp.fr Thu Jan 2 16:59:11 2003 From: murray at via.ecp.fr (Carlo Calabro) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 17:59:11 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry dying In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030102165911.GD20256@roy.via.ecp.fr> No: HPFGUIDX 49098 On Thu, Jan 02, 2003, soccergurl512 wrote: > I think that maybe Harry would die > and then Hermionie and Ron would have to > some how bring him back to life. What do you > guys think? That magic can't bring back dead people to life. That's canon. Harry prisoner to be rescued, on the other hand, is fairly possible. -- Carlo Ah che sar che sar, quel che non ha governo n mai ce l'avr, quel che non ha vergogna n mai ce l'avr, quel che non ha giudizio... Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From suzloua at hotmail.com Thu Jan 2 17:43:45 2003 From: suzloua at hotmail.com (Susan Atherton) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 17:43:45 -0000 Subject: Time Travel in PoA Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49099 >Sharana wrote: >Again, what is at stake? Going to Azkaban? Yes of course, but you could also say, "Your very lives are at stake if you see your other selves", because they wouldn't understand and try to kill you. >Again, if you cannot change time (or history), regardless of the circumstances, then why bother to make a law about it. There will be no alternate outcomes to the use of the TT. Why send someone to Azkaban? Me: Gah!!! Because you CAN change time. Harry and Hermione have already saved Sirius when Dumbledore even tells them to go back and do it. But Dumbledore doesn't know that. He just knows Beaky escaped. Harry and Hermione don't know that. Sirius does, but Sirius is in the tower - except he's not, he's on Buckbeak's back somewhere :) Dumbledore knew that Buckbeak wasn't executed. He knew what happened there. However, if HHR hadn't left when Hagrid told them to, BB would have died. HH2 couldn't have saved him, because HH1 would see them. You can NOT see yourself when you go back in time, not because you might accidentally kill yourself, but because it's a paradox. As soon as you see yourself - scratch that, as soon as you RECOGNISE yourself as you... well, I don't know what happens, but to borrow the words of Doc Brown, the universe would implode etc. But that's a worst case scenario - the destruction may be limited to our own galaxy. :) If H1 saw H2 up close, he would have recognised him. But H2 would not have seen that when he was still H1. Therefore H1's present ceases to be consistent with H2's past, and H1's future is no longer H2's present. But if H1's future isn't H2's present, then H2 can't be in the situation where H1 can see him, because H2 shouldn't be there. But he is. That's a paradox, it's like an illogical loop that doesn't work and can't be possible. The only way you can see yourself is the new version recognises the old version but NOT the other way around. I think. Oh, now I'm getting a headache too... >Sharana also wrote: >Wizards have traveled in time and ended up killing themselves, so the use of the TT is extremely restricted. Imagine that Voldemort uses a TT to travel to the point James and Lily are kids. Why not kill James there? Because James and Lily didn't die when they were children. It's the Schroedinger's Cat Uncertainty Principle thing. If Harry and Hermione hadn't just heard the swish of the axe and stuff, if they'd actually seen Buckbeak being rescued, they would have known Buckbeak escaped even if they didn't see themselves helping him. But then they wouldn't have thought Buckbeak needed rescuing. Buckbeak didn't die and then come back to life - you people who are arguing about the Harry-being-Kissed-person-X thing should maybe include that - he always escaped with Harry and Hermione. They just THOUGHT he died because they didn't see him. But James and Lily have been seen by hundreds of people to be alive in their twenties. Therefore, Voldemort can't kill them without changing time. And if he changes it enough, like that (remember D'dore KNEW Beaky escaped and so knew H&H could save him without changing time) he could create an alternative future in which he never travelled into the past and so he couldn't have killed them... and then we're in paradox country again :) Am I rambling? Am I making sense? Answers on a postcard ;) Susan (who is starting to think buying Back To The Future on DVD was a bad idea) ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "The Germans are a cruel race. Their operas are six hours long, and they have no word for 'fluffy' " --Edmund Blackadder [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Thu Jan 2 18:03:32 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 13:03:32 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry in Azkaban? Message-ID: <52BA5460.176B96CA.F1060DB4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49100 In a message dated 1/2/2003 12:45:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, oppen at mycns.net writes: > Another possibility, I fear, is that one or both of the Trio _other than > Harry_ might end up there. I fear for Hermione in particular---what she did > with Rita Skeeter could easily be far worse under WW law than Rita's being > an unregistered Animagus and all-around pest, nuisance, and disgrace to the > journalistic profession (as, I believe, she would be to _any_ profession, > even one involving standing around on street corners in skimpy attire, > trying to get the attention of male passers-by). She's also done other > things that could get her into Very Deep Kimchee...stealing Snape's > supplies, brewing illegal Polyjuice Potion, accessory > before-and-after-the-fact to impersonation, aiding-and-abetting Sirius > Black's and Buckbeak's escape...oh, the list goes on and on, and _unlike > Harry,_ she doesn't have the protection of fame. She's > also a "Mudblood," Time to break this down... I'm going to look at each of the ways you suggested she could be convicted and see how plausible they are. First there's the thing with Rita Skeeter. I can imagine her saying "Well, you did make me promise to only write the truth." It may cost her her job, but it would be terrific revenge. As for the Polyjuice potion...here are only 3 people who could spill the beans on her: Ron, Harry, and Moaning Myrtle. Now, Ron and Harry I don't think would say anything because they were involved in making the potion as well, but Myrtle is a different story. I could see her, in one of her fits, telling all. As for the stealing of the ingredients and Sirius's rescue that all depends on if any of the trio (or Dumbledore or Sirius even) say anything. Who knows, maybe Snape'll decide to 'accidently' sprinkle some veritaserum into Harry's evening pumpkin juice ^_~ ~Cassie~ From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Thu Jan 2 18:19:42 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius ) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 18:19:42 -0000 Subject: Harry in Azkaban? In-Reply-To: <00fd01c2b286$db2e4680$64560043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49101 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" wrote: > > > Another possibility, I fear, is that one or both of the Trio _other than > Harry_ might end up there. I fear for Hermione in particular--- what she did > with Rita Skeeter could easily be far worse under WW law than Rita's being > an unregistered Animagus You're assuming Azkaban is going to remain a fully-owned subsidiary of MOM Inc. However Lord Voldemort has already declared his intention to free his supporters imprisoned there, and to forge an alliance with the dementors. What more natural than Azkaban becoming his base of operations? (or at least an important outpost). I doubt that Voldy much cares one way or the other what Herm and Rita did to one another, but he would dearly love to get his mitts on Hermione for other reasons I trust are obvious. My guess: we will visit Azkaban sometime in the series (not necessarily Book Five). Voldemort will imprison some of the good guys (staff of the MOM, perhaps, including Fudge and Percy), or someone even closer to Harry (Herm, Ron, Sirius again, etc). Dumbledore will organize a rescue mission: who more fitting to lead it than those two masters of the Patronus Charm, Lupin and Harry? - CMC From wynnde1 at aol.com Thu Jan 2 19:17:59 2003 From: wynnde1 at aol.com (wynnde1 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 14:17:59 EST Subject: Harry in Azkaban (was Harry's Trip/Penelope, etc) Message-ID: <140.6ae7e70.2b45ea67@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49102 In a message dated 02/01/2003 07:17:03 GMT Standard Time, sammerz2388 at aol.com writes: > Okay, yes, *why* would Harry Potter be in Azkaban? Well, it's not > like he hasn't been involved in some pretty risky business. of Harry's past shenanigans> > > There's still the question of *what* Harry would do to receive such a > punishment, but I fear trying to imagine all the possible scenarios > that Harry could get himself into, would severely stress the limits > of my already-aching head...or maybe I'm just afraid to try :-) > Well, here's the scenario which popped into my mind right away - Harry is sent to Azkaban for using an unforgivebale curse (AK) to murder Cedric Diggory. Okay, so *we* know that he wasn't the one who murdered Cedric, but as far I can tell, everyone else who witnessed this event isn't going to be willing to come forward and testify to Harry's innocence. So, pretend for a moment that you are Fudge. You are either a) really thick, b) evil and already working for Voldemort or c) not really evil yet, but weak and thinking that if Voldemort really *is* back, then maybe he's the one you want to be working for. There is a whole list of things about Harry that you either believe or can pretend to believe if it suits you (and some of them are actually *true*): Harry has committed crimes such as using underage magic away from Hogwarts, including an attack on his own aunt; Harry has been involved with dodgy things in the past, including the potentially embarrassing escape of Sirius Black the previous year; News reports have portrayed Harry as emotionally unstable, and possibly suffering strange effects from his curse scar; He's a parselmouth and there was that unpleasant business with the Chamber of Secrets a few years back. I'm sure there are plenty of others I'm forgetting, as well. Now, Harry comes back with a wild story about Voldemort and Peter Pettigrew (who everyone knows is dead), and a bunch of supposed "Death Eaters" including Fudge's suck-up buddy Lucius Malfoy. And Harry has brought back the body of the only other tri-wizard champion who had a chance to beat him in the final test of the tournament. How easy it would be for Fudge to believe (or *claim* to believe, depending on whether or not you think he's evil or just thick), that Harry is a dangerous maniac with a history of criminal behavior and that he has finally snapped and killed his classmate, Diggory. Harry gets hauled off to Azkaban. Bye bye Hogwarts, Hello Dementors! So, what do you think? Admittedly, I really *don't* believe that this is how book 5 is going to open. If Fudge was going to play this card, he'd have done it by now. But I do think it's a reasonable example of the sort of thing that *could* happen to land Harry in Azkaban, or some other sort of trouble with the MoM. I think it would be fairly easy, when looking purely from the outside at Harry's *actions* and the things which have been said about him to make it look as though Harry is unbalanced and dangerous. Look how quickly the majority of the student population turned on him in CoS, and decided he was the Heir of Slytherin? Fame is fickle, and I think it is entirely plausible that *something* could happen (one of the much-discussed upcoming deaths, for example), and Harry will get blamed for it, though we'll know that he had nothing to do with it, but was just in the wrong place at the wrong time (which he often is ). And even if there are other witnesses to Harry's innocence, I imagine that Fudge, etc., could easily overlook that. After all, Dumbledore felt that the combined word of Harry, Ron, Hermione, Lupin and Dumbledore's own belief in the innocence of Sirius Black wouldnt' be enough to convince anyone else (in PoA). We know that Harry is really lovely and amazingly well-adjusted, all things considered. But I do think it would be very easy for someone like Fudge to make a convincing argument otherwise. And, from what we've seen so far, the standard of evidence necessary to send someone to Azkaban is not particularly rigorous, so I'm doubt it would be all that difficult for Fudge to convince most of the WW that Harry deserved a sentence in Azkaban. Now, having said all this, I'll add that I actually don't think Harry will get sent to Azkaban at all, as that would probably do really wild things to the storyline as we know it. But I wouldn't be surprised to see a huge anti-Harry campaign sweep through the WW. Harry would still be at Hogwarts, but pretty much everyone would suspect or hate him, even more so than what happened in CoS. :-) Wendy (Whose favourite Fudge theory above is c) . . . I'm hoping for the following: Fudge trys to make a deal with Voldemort, and in doing so gets himself killed by Lucius Malfoy. Lucius then becomes Minister for Magic - fun, fun, fun for our heroes and the WW in general!. Eventually, towards the end of the series, Lucius himself is killed or sent to Azkaban, preferably by Arthur Weasley, who then becomes Minister for Magic in his place.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annemehr at yahoo.com Thu Jan 2 19:48:08 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr ) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 19:48:08 -0000 Subject: Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49103 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan Atherton" wrote: >You can NOT see yourself when you go back in time, not because you >might accidentally kill yourself, but because it's a paradox. As soon >as you see yourself - scratch that, as soon as you RECOGNISE yourself >as you... well, I don't know what happens, but to borrow the words of >Doc Brown, the universe would implode etc. But that's a worst case >scenario - the destruction may be limited to our own galaxy. :) If H1 >saw H2 up close, he would have recognised him. But H2 would not have >seen that when he was still H1. Therefore H1's present ceases to be >consistent with H2's past, and H1's future is no longer H2's present. >But if H1's future isn't H2's present, then H2 can't be in the >situation where H1 can see him, because H2 shouldn't be there. But he >is. That's a paradox, it's like an illogical loop that doesn't work >and can't be possible. This is true up to a point. But it is true because Harry was timeturned to a point in the past *before* he knew about the time turner. Hermione is a different case. It is quite possible that during the school year when she was going to all those classes at the same time, that she passed herself in the hallways at times. However, she would not have been in danger because all of her selves *knew* what she was doing. She never turned herself back to a point in time that was before she received the TT from Professor McGonagall. On the other hand, maybe what you said isn't true? (now I'm getting the headache...) If H2 and H2 had entered Hagrid's hut, wouldn't the story from H1 and H1's point of view just had to have included H2 and H2? In which case, HH2's survival would depend on Hermione1, who was the only one who could recognize what was going on, being able to prevent a disaster -- a very slim possibility, probably. But no, you are right -- if you can use a time-turner, it must be possible to go back in time to place where you remember that you never saw yourself, and then confront yourself, and who knows what would happen then? Even more problematic to me is, how could you end up killing your past self? If you do, you don't survive to use the time turner, so you don't go back to kill yourself, so you *do* survive, so...or else the universe implodes, but it couldn't have, because there's Hermione saying that loads of wizards have killed their past selves, and her universe hasn't imploded, soooo -- maybe McGonagall was exaggerating a bit. BUT OTOH, can you imagine there being such a thing as a time-turner and no idiot wizard going back in time and killing his past self? I mean, if a thing can possibly be done, you know that someone, somewhere, at some time is going to do it! The whole thing does make me hope we've seen the last of the time turner in this series! Annemehr From splinched at hotmail.com Thu Jan 2 19:49:16 2003 From: splinched at hotmail.com (eudaemonia_splinched ) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 19:49:16 -0000 Subject: A detailed analysis of Snape's hatred of Harry (S.N.O.T.) In-Reply-To: <19a.e4b73b8.2b45d465@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49104 Ack! So many good points and things to think about, but here's something I'd like to respond to in a drive-by-posting: Eloise said: Snape has a big problem with Harry's fame, IMO. I think it's very hard for him that the child of the man he hated is famous for defeating Voldmort as a helpless baby, when he had risked so much to try to achieve the same end, failing and ending up *teaching* of all things. I don't think he wants fame and glory, but I think he *craves* recognition. I think he also sees fame as a fickle friend. Dumbledore tried to protect Harry from its effects by placing him with the Dursleys. I think Snape sees it as part of his role to counteract the instant celebrity that he gets when he arrives at Hogwarts. Unfortunately he doesn't understand Harry's character and assumes that his head will be swelled by fame (as perhaps his own would have been?) I say: I think fame and reputation is a big part of why Snape dislikes Harry so much. It seems to me he's been a victim of prejudices of reputation from the start. Sirius said that he knew more of the Dark Arts than any 7th year when Snape first arrived at Hogwarts -- does that automatically mean he practices it? Knowing the danger is a good way to counter-attack, isn't it? And currently he's been known to be after the DADA job -- and he still hasn't gotten it despite the fact that it's the hardest position to replace. They couldn't have switched him over and gotten a new potions instructor instead? He probably sees Harry's inherited popularity (whether it was from James' own school Big Man On Campus status or from the end of Voldemort) through bitter eyes and would do all that he could to prove Harry is otherwise, just as he is trying to do for himself. I don't think he was ever really evil. Reputation can pressure a person into becoming what others think of him instead of what he really was/is. I think that's how he's been partial to Slytherins and why he ever became a Death Eater in the first place - they're the only ones to ever accept him and his talents. But there's a limit to how much a person can be pressured. Snape must've found his limit in giving in to prejudices since he'd left the Death Eaters and decided to side with Dumbledore. *_* my 2 knuts, Eu From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Jan 2 20:05:02 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 12:05:02 -0800 Subject: Time Turner Message-ID: <143425906779.20030102120502@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 49105 Reading all the discussions about the time travel theories made me remember how surprised I was about Hermione having been trusted with one, when reading the book for the first time. Okay, she *is* dedicated to learning and generally trustworthy, but she's also only 13 (or 14, depending on which birthday theory you subscribe to ). There are just so many things that could go wrong, things out of Hermione's control. And I'm also surprised that McGonagall didn't step in to help out Hermione, when it became obvious that Hermione was having trouble with the workload. Did Hermione read about the TT, begged for a chance to use it, and her teacher was trying to teach her a lesson, or did McG. offer her the opportunity to use it? -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From kewiromeo at aol.com Thu Jan 2 20:32:41 2003 From: kewiromeo at aol.com (kewiromeo at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 15:32:41 EST Subject: Spider Poison, Wands and Obi-Wan-Kanobi Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49106 Spider Poison: I don't know if anyone besides me noticed this, but the blood that was surging through Harry's body while Wormtail was extracting it contained Spider Venom. During the last obstacle in the maze Harry had encountered the massive spider and it caught him in the leg. Harry seems to be having much trouble with his arm and leg when it comes to Spider Venom, Basilisk Venom, Blood Extraction, etc... When I think about it, I would think that the phoenix tears will have more of an impact than just healing wounds. As we can see it will counteract the effects of any poison in an instant. Harry has the phoenix at his disposal most of the time and it seems to come in handy. However, Harry was weakened by the Spider Venom and therefor the blood would not have been as useful as if he hadn't been poisoned. Perhaps, a Harry at full strength will be even more powerful than L.Voldermort. I've thought about this many times, and time will only tell whether or not this is what will happen. Wands: I am sure this has been mentioned a million times, essays have been written on it, and everyone has read so much about this subject. A we have seen in many instances Harry does not need a wand to do magic. We know that some of the most powerful magic, i.e., Animagus transformation, does not involve the use of a wand. Before Harry had received his wand he tended to do magic without his knowledge really. He wanted things to happen, but something similar, if not different happens, i.e., his hair growing back as soon as he came back from the barber. (Perhaps, on a side note, that Witches and Wizards do not need to cute their hair, its simple genetics that makes it that way and magic makes it stay that way.) Once Harry had received his want he became more powerful, even without a wand. When Aunt Marge ticked him off he blew her up, not sure if this is intentional, but as he was leaving the cupboard flew open at a single thought and he had that fury like Dumbledore in his eyes. Perhaps, The tears of the phoenix, the same phoenix that gives Harry the core to his wand, gives a little magic into his blood, giving him the ability to do magic by thought alone, using his own mind as a vessel to channel his energy. Obi-Wan-Kanobi: For those who are not familiar with this character from Star Wars, he gave his life up, and in his spiritual form was more useful to the cause of good in the movie. People seem to think that Dumbledore will die. If he does die I feel that he will be even more powerful. He says that he will never have truly left as long as there are those who remain loyal to him. He will come back even more powerful to help Harry along the journey if he is defeated/gives up, Obi-Wan Kanobi style. As well, Harry is psychic, perhaps even more powerful than Professor Trelawney. From the first dream of Professor Quirell's turban telling him that he must switch to Slytherin, to the owl regarding Crouch Sr.'s death. He has never been wrong and is becoming more aware of this each and every time. As we have seen that Magical death is different from that of Muggle death, and if Dumbledore does not come back as a ghost, maybe he will come back to Harry in his dreams, or when he really needs help. And that's all I have to say about that Tzvi of Brooklyn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From risako at nexusanime.com Thu Jan 2 20:36:46 2003 From: risako at nexusanime.com (Melissa McCarthy) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 16:36:46 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry dying References: <433B4A65.6D6F4822.F1060DB4@aol.com> Message-ID: <01a501c2b29e$b07798c0$5ba594d1@vaio> No: HPFGUIDX 49107 ~Cassie~ said: > Well, if Harry did die I don't think Hermione/Ron would be able to bring it back. For the life of me I can't remember where the quote is, but I'm 100% sure that somewhere in the books/a JKR interview it says that the dead cannot be brought back to life. Hmm. Here's an idea, then: what if Harry does die but remains in the story as a ghost? After all, there's already a teacher who's a ghost, so why not a student? That's a comforting thought. Whoever dies might still stick around. That's going to be my mantra now. ^^ I'm new here and haven't had time to dive into the archives; my apologies if this possibility has already been dismissed! ^^; Melissa From alicit at aol.com Thu Jan 2 20:58:20 2003 From: alicit at aol.com (alicit at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 15:58:20 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] TBAY: SILK SHIRTS Message-ID: <12d.1ef5265e.2b4601ec@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49108 Sheherazade is taking Matt, her spanish crup, for a walk, when she overhears a conversation between a girl and her snake "...So, the thing with SILK SHIRTS is that Snape would be a really likeable guy if it wasn't for his mishaps in school.? If you remember that he had all that stuff happen to him and realize that *that* is what's making him do the things he does, he's kinda a likeable guy,"? Oryomai stops.? She looks at the snake, "Right?"" "Well," says Scheherazade, causing Oryomai to jump at the sudden unexpected voice behind her "I don't think it is entirely due to his time at Hogwarts. remember, he did know the most curses coming in his first year. I think that he had a background that could have lead him to either becoming a bright young man who studies the dark arts, like Lupin apparently does, or a spiteful man who turns to them." "His enmity with the maurauders, and being in slytherin, probably hurried him along that second path a little quicker" Scheherazade stopped and looked thoughtfully at the garden snake that was blissfully winding it's way about oryomai's hand. "Plus, i've always loved Silk Shirts..." -Scheherazade, technically, my first TBAY post, although it's not the first i've written! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Thu Jan 2 21:07:22 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari ) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 21:07:22 -0000 Subject: Percy - a little brainwashed? (was Re: Percy- a little odd?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49110 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "heiditandy " wrote: > In the recent discussion of Percy and his fit into the Weasley > family, I haven't noticed any mention of my "pet" theory (and I call > it that both because it's one of my pet topics of discussion, and > because it involves a pet). ' Oh, Heidi, I didn't have time to reply to your Ron post, but what I meant to say was I thought that the connection of evil with Scabbers involved Percy, not Ron. No, of course not. Percy Is Not Evil. Well, at least not in a Voldemort style, but he idolized Crouch... He was 19 and, unlike Harry, not in the least apathetic about these things. He must have known what Crouch had done, and he apparently approved. Oh my poor dear Percy who evidently believes using the Cruciatus curse on suspects is acceptable. (I won't even go into the Percy/Crouch Jr. parallel I'm getting here.) Percy, though, would be a Livian, don't you think? A real one. He has the capacity to be everything Crouch pretended to be. Percy could be evil. Very evil indeed. As well as a tragic hero. But I'd always figured the Scabbers parallel was more stylistic than functional. First of all, your intrepretation of Pettigrew is slightly less charitable than mine. I've always figured that Pettigrew's feelings towards the Weasleys, and Harry, all those years were generally benevolent, and above-board. No canon for this, but my inner sycophant wants it that way. However, secondly, it would bug me if Ron or Percy were to go over to the Dark Side out of programming. Despite the fact that I don't see Ron going over at all, and Percy only in a certain way (not to join Voldemort), I'd actually like to see someone go over among the good guys. >But it is possible that the weak link isn't > any flaw in Percy - but rather, a flaw caused by the pet his parents > let him have when he was sixish. Exactly. You see I'd rather that it be a flaw in Percy than something he isn't responsible for. I'd like it to be character driven, not spell driven. I wonder, though, if Percy and Mr. Pettigrew have a future meeting ahed of them. Eileen, who must jump back into the Crouch fray From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Thu Jan 2 21:22:43 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari ) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 21:22:43 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Barty Crouch Jr. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49111 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gryffindor02356 " wrote: > Having read GoF numerous times, I become further intrigued with Barty > Jr.'s character, but many questions still remain. >Was there a love interest that he lost??? No, she lost him. I cannot take credit for the following theory. A friend told me that it's appeared in fanfics, and suggested I'd like it. Which I do. GoF - Page 365 - "Mad Eye Moody was doing an extremely ungainly two-step with Professor Sinistra, who was nervously avoding his wooden leg." And on that hangs a ship. You see, what do we know about Barty Crouch Jr.? We know that he's a show-off, that he spent his entire year not avoiding old personal relationships, as we might have expected of another man, but instead showing them off. His behaviour towards his father, Snape, Karkaroff, and Neville proves the point. He is forever "being himself." What if that facet of his personality stretched to his choice of dance partners? Barty Crouch Jr. and Sinistra: young lovers parted by Azkaban. I demand an acronym, and will ship it fervently. Eileen From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Thu Jan 2 21:29:33 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 16:29:33 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry dying Message-ID: <511B66EA.5016EAC3.F1060DB4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49112 Melissa said: > Hmm. Here's an idea, then: what if Harry does die but remains in the story > as a ghost? After all, there's already a teacher who's a ghost, so why not > a student? That's a comforting thought. Whoever dies might still stick > around. That's going to be my mantra now. ^^ Me: Well, a student certainly could become a ghost (i.e, Moaning Myrtle). You also have to take into account the fact that only those who do not die happy become ghosts (Which constantly makes me wonder what happened to Quirrell.) If Harry did die and became a ghost, maybe he'd take up Myrtle's offer to share her bathroom ^_~ > > I'm new here and haven't had time to dive into the > archives; my apologies if > this possibility has already been dismissed! ^^; No worries. I've been here for over a year and I *still* feel like a newbie ^^; From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Thu Jan 2 21:39:36 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 16:39:36 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Barty Crouch Jr. Message-ID: <5D1CC84A.3F332D6C.F1060DB4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49113 In a message dated 1/2/2003 4:22:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, lucky_kari at yahoo.ca writes: > Barty Crouch Jr. and Sinistra: young lovers parted by > Azkaban. I > demand an acronym, and will ship it fervently. Umm..What about BASSIST? Barty And Sinistra Sitting In Some Tree (K-I-S-S-I-N-G!) or: DISABLE DANCE INDICATES SINSTRA AND BARTY are LOVERS, ETC.. ~Cassie~ From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Jan 2 21:52:00 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 16:52:00 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A detailed analysis of Snape's hatred of Harry (S.N.O... Message-ID: <7a.34b27fe2.2b460e80@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49114 In a message dated 02/01/2003 19:53:59 GMT Standard Time, splinched at hotmail.com writes: >It seems to me he's been a victim of prejudices of >reputation from the start. <> > And currently he's been known to be > after the DADA job -- and he still hasn't gotten it despite the fact > that it's the hardest position to replace. I've got to pick up on that point. We have *no proof of that whatsoever*. The only indication that Snape wants the DADA job is the student rumour that Percy quotes in the start of year banquet in PS/SS. And that would seem to be likely to be spawned by the same prejudices to which you allude. Oh, and there is an interview by Alan Rickman (who had some instruction from JKR) - although he suggested that Snape wanted to be a professor *of the Dark Arts* - which might be nearer the mark in his heart of hearts. *If* you accept such things as having any canononical bearing. ;-) Personally, I feel he has far too much pride in his current position and expertise to want the DADA job. ~Eloise Sounding a little too negative about a post that made some points she really wants to go away and *think* about. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 2 22:53:19 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura ) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 22:53:19 -0000 Subject: Time Turner In-Reply-To: <143425906779.20030102120502@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49115 Susanne wrote: > > > Did Hermione read about the TT, begged for a chance to use it, and her teacher was trying to teach her a lesson, or did McG. offer her the opportunity to use it? > > > I think it came about as a solution to a problem...somewhere in CoS the selection of elective courses is discussed. And it says something along the lines of "Hermione took no one's advice but signed up for everything." Which led to an interesting little scheduling problem. =) From the way Hermione spoke of it, McGonagall worked very hard to get Hermione the privilege to use the TT. While we're on the topic, who was horribly frustrated that ALL year Harry and Ron NEVER caught on??? She's scheduled for 2 classes, 2 exams at once, Ron overhears people talking about her being in Arithmancy while he "knows" she hasn't been there yet....and they never piece it together. They keep asking her but they never figured it out. I was so frustrated...I mean, they live in the WIZARDING world. There's this thing called MAGIC! *deep breath* I'm sorry, it just drove me crazy to see that Harry and Ron, for how bright they're supposed to be, never thought that there might be a magical method of time travel. *end of Laura's rant* -Laura From h_potter_uk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jan 2 22:23:29 2003 From: h_potter_uk at yahoo.co.uk (h_potter_uk ) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 22:23:29 -0000 Subject: Wizard Clothes? In-Reply-To: <122.1cbdffff.2b44cc8c@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49116 scheherazade wrote: > What, exactly, constitutes the difference between wizard clothes and muggle clothes? > > So, are these just wizards that never manage to go anywhere outside the > wizarding world? We know from PS that they're not supposed to be seen by > muggles in their robes, so what do these odd fellows do? Me: I agree with bboy_mn and jazmyn. Older Wizards isolate themselves, but the kids are the ones bringing back the muggle influences from school. Besides, when you've got Floo Powder and whatnot to get around, the muggle community doesn't have to see you even leave your house, so you can dress in your traditional wizard clothing. When they have to dress like muggles, they aren't sure what to wear. I think we, as muggles, encounter the same sort of problem with dressing like a culture different from our own. I am a re-enactor for the American War of Independence (on the British side, of course *God Save the King*) and it's pretty interesting to look at the evolution of 18th century reproductions done by re-enactors. I started out with the basic, stereotyped colonial fashion. People (generally tourists) think - oh, yeah, tricorner hats and mob caps, but that's not true. When you start delving deeper into the obsess- I mean, hobby, you see that there is a _big_ difference between what the public thinks is accurate and what is not. Just like the wizarding world vs. the muggle world. Arthur Weasley probably had the upperhand on his co-workers being that he works with muggle artifacts. Other wizards have a stereotyped idea of what muggles wear or might have no idea at all. This also goes with the muggle stereotype of what wizards wear. Muggles outside of Potterdom think of the Hollywood Merlin when someone says wizard. Old man, long beard, long, closed robes and a pointy hat. Or witches - we think of a scabby old lady with green skin, knotty black hair, and a long crooked nose. Now that Harry's come into the picture, we see (somewhat) normal kids as wizards, so why not dress them like us? Besides, look at the marketing and commercialism - especially here in the US. Everyone is bombarded with that image of the ideal fashion and image. Why would Wizard PR people not try to bring in muggle fashion? Could the younger generations of wizards, even muggle- borns, want to get away from the traditional wizard wear their parents wear and get into something new, something hip, something trendy? Look at Bill Weasley. He dresses like a punk (and his mom doesn't seem too happy about it.) The discussion that bboy_mn pointed out was pretty interesting. (I went back and read it.) I suggest going to the school uniform page. It's really cool (but, then again, I'm a sucker for uniforms...) So basically, the only difference between Muggle and Wizard clothing is the perception of it by the wearer and where the clothes are made. Yours in Gryffindor, Jenny (who may have previously signed her posts 'Helouise' being that it's her pen name and she can't remember which name she used last. So she'll use her real name because it's the one she responds to.) (PS - on the discourse above about 18th century clothing - I should probably mention that I am a stickler for authenticity. I mean, if you're going to do it, do it right, right?) From jmmears at comcast.net Thu Jan 2 23:07:50 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust ) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 23:07:50 -0000 Subject: Harry's fate in book 5 (was Harry in Azkaban) In-Reply-To: <140.6ae7e70.2b45ea67@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49117 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, wynnde1 at a... wrote: > > Okay, yes, *why* would Harry Potter be in Azkaban? Well, it's not > > like he hasn't been involved in some pretty risky business. > of Harry's past shenanigans> Then Wendy replied: > Well, here's the scenario which popped into my mind right away - Harry is > sent to Azkaban for using an unforgivebale curse (AK) to murder Cedric > Diggory. . There is a whole list of things about Harry that you either believe or > can pretend to believe if it suits you (and some of them are actually > *true*): Wendy again: > Now, Harry comes back with a wild story about Voldemort and Peter Pettigrew > (who everyone knows is dead), and a bunch of supposed "Death Eaters" > including Fudge's suck-up buddy Lucius Malfoy. And Harry has brought back the > body of the only other tri-wizard champion who had a chance to beat him in > the final test of the tournament. > > How easy it would be for Fudge to believe (or *claim* to believe, depending > on whether or not you think he's evil or just thick), that Harry is a > dangerous maniac with a history of criminal behavior and that he has finally > snapped and killed his classmate, Diggory. Harry gets hauled off to Azkaban. > Bye bye Hogwarts, Hello Dementors! > > So, what do you think? I do agree that Harry's history since re-enterting the WW appears dogey enough that an excellent case could be made for incriminating him in the death of Cedric. After all, we've seen the "spin" put on all sorts of things in the Wizard press, and there doesn't seem to be a very high level of scepticism among the average witch/wizard concerning what they read in the papers. As things stand at the end of GoF, Fudge is (IMO)in major denial concering Voldemort's return, and would be very likely to promote an alternative theory for Cedric's demise. If it takes throwing Harry to the wolves of public opinion in order to avert general panic over V's re-birth, Fudge will do it. Wendy again: > Admittedly, I really *don't* believe that this is how book 5 is going to > open. If Fudge was going to play this card, he'd have done it by now. Actually, I do think that it's very likely that this will figure heavily at the beginning of book 5. Things are still very unsettled, but oddly quiet at the end of GoF. Too quiet, considering the enormity of what's just happened. "When Hermione returned from the trolley and put her money back into her schoolbag, she dislodged a copy of the Daily Prophet that she had beeen carrying in there. Harry looked at it, unsure whether he really wanted to know what it might say, but Hermione, seeing him looking at it, said calmly, "There's nothing in there. You can look for yourself, but there's nothing at all. I've been checking every day. Just a small piece the day after the third task saying you won the tournament. They didn't even mention Cedric. Nothing about any of it. If you ask me, Fudge is forcing them to keep quiet." (GoF, Chapter 37, p. 726 US.) I agree with Hermione here. I think that Fudge is waiting for the other shoe to drop, and laying the groundwork for his next move, depending upon what Dumbledore and co. do next. Wendy again: > Now, having said all this, I'll add that I actually don't think Harry will > get sent to Azkaban at all, as that would probably do really wild things to > the storyline as we know it. But I wouldn't be surprised to see a huge > anti-Harry campaign sweep through the WW. Harry would still be at Hogwarts, > but pretty much everyone would suspect or hate him, even more so than what > happened in CoS. I don't think that Harry is at so much risk of going to Azkaban as he is St. Mungo's. After all, he is still "the boy who lived" and only 15 years old. However, in Rita Skeeter's last she describes him as "disturbed and dangerous", outlines the whole parselmouth backstory and actually seems to predict what actually comes to pass during the 3rd task. And now, she has disappeared. I have always had the horrible feeling that Amos Diggory is going to turn on Harry with a vengance in book 5, and that this article, combined with the grief of loosing Cedric, will be the impetus behind a large part of the WW turning against Harry. Everyone is very focused on the upcoming death(s) in books 5, 6 and 7 as the source of the darkness to come. However, I believe that these deaths will only be a part of the larger, more tragic events that will befall Harry and the WW. There really are things that are sadder than death, and I think JKR has set many of those things in motion by the end of GoF. As eager as I am to get OOP in my hot little hands, the end of GoF leaves me very apprehensive. Jo Serenadust From jmmears at comcast.net Thu Jan 2 23:29:10 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust ) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 23:29:10 -0000 Subject: Time Turner In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49118 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Laura " > While we're on the topic, who was horribly frustrated that ALL year > Harry and Ron NEVER caught on??? She's scheduled for 2 classes, 2 > exams at once, Ron overhears people talking about her being in > Arithmancy while he "knows" she hasn't been there yet....and they > never piece it together. They keep asking her but they never figured > it out. I was so frustrated...I mean, they live in the WIZARDING > world. There's this thing called MAGIC! *deep breath* I'm sorry, > it just drove me crazy to see that Harry and Ron, for how bright > they're supposed to be, never thought that there might be a magical > method of time travel. *end of Laura's rant* I shared your frustration, too! At least Ron was curious about how she was doing all these classes simultaneously, and even seems to have discussed her schedule with Ernie McMillan. Harry doesn't even seem to take more than a passing interest in how she's doing this. Maybe time-turners are very rare in the WW and Ron has simply never known of their existance. This is the only reason I can think of for Ron not guessing how she's doing it. We're never actually "shown" her explaining the TT to Ron, so we never do "see" his reaction which is unfortunate because he's the one who was so persistently interested. Harry, of course learned about it under very stressful circumstances during the Black/Buckbeak rescue, and just seems to accept it as one more thing he didn't know about in the WW. Still, his lack of curiousity about how Hermione was managing her schedule was quite striking. Jo Serenadust From the.harrisfamily at virgin.net Thu Jan 2 23:54:16 2003 From: the.harrisfamily at virgin.net (eillim022861 ) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 23:54:16 -0000 Subject: Time Travel in POA Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49119 'annemehr' states >Even more problematic to me is, how could you end up killing your >past self? If you do, you don't survive to use the time turner, so >you don't go back to kill yourself, so you *do* survive, so...or >else the universe implodes, but it couldn't have, because there's >Hermione saying that loads of wizards have killed their past selves My view I have to admit that I have always had a problem with time travel in POA. One theory that I have read about (apologies if this has been covered already)is the existence of parallel universes where a different you or me exists, but is leading a slightly different life. The argument goes that if you went back in time and killed yourself, you would in fact be killing yourself from a parallel universe, not your own. I'm not sure if this adds anything to the debate or confuses the issue any more. eillim From stormlass at yahoo.com Fri Jan 3 00:12:42 2003 From: stormlass at yahoo.com (snapesrighthand) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 16:12:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry dying In-Reply-To: <511B66EA.5016EAC3.F1060DB4@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030103001242.57281.qmail@web14511.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49120 Did Quirrel actually die in the book? I know he did in the movie but... I do not remember Quirrel actually dying... I thought he was in the hospital wing with Harry? Am I reading too much fanfiction? "snapesrighthand" From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Jan 3 00:31:38 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 18:31:38 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry dying References: <20030103001242.57281.qmail@web14511.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006601c2b2bf$7b6a31d0$daa0cdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 49121 "snapesrighthand" writes: > Did Quirrel actually die in the book? I know he did in the > movie but... I do not remember Quirrel actually dying... I > thought he was in the hospital wing with Harry? Am I reading > too much fanfiction? No, he was not in the hospital wing with Harry. All we really know about Quirrell is that Dumbledore tells Harry in the hospital wing that Voldemort "left Quirrell to die; he shows as little mercy to his followers as his enemies." I don't remember him being mentioned again. It certainly implies that Quirrell died when Voldemort left his body. Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 3 01:00:48 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214 ) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 01:00:48 -0000 Subject: Snape's Teaching Sytle (WAS: Re: A detailed analysis of Snape's hatred of Harry (S.N.O.T.) In-Reply-To: <3F4EC403.62A60468.F1060DB4@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49122 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote: > In a message dated 1/1/2003 9:03:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, dumbledore11214 at y... writes: > (I've been sick lately, so I haven't been following the threads too closely. Sorry if any of you have Deja vu ^^;) > > I think Snape's teaching style is entirely justifiable, though not in the way you want it to be. This may just be MHO (note the sarcasm, please), but I don't think Snape likes teaching. I think he's just doing it for Dumbledore's sake. > > Snape is a great pessimist. Instead of making the best of his situation, he does all he can to make the worst of it. > > Let's look at the case of Neville Longbottom. I imagine Snape gets extremely frustrated with the boy because he never seems to grasp anything. Snape just doesn't have the patience to be a teacher, and I don't imagine he's going to try to gain that patience because he's so pessimistic about his situation. > > Now, I'm not saying this makes the way he teaches right in any way. However, it is a reason. > > ~Cassie~ Yes, absolutely this is a very possible reason, but as you correctly stated it is not good enough for me in order for Snape to stay one of my favourites after all the mysteries are revealed. :o) I don't think he likes teaching either and I hope that he will find something to do that he likes more in the end, if he survives, of course. :o). Alla From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Fri Jan 3 01:20:32 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David ) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 01:20:32 -0000 Subject: Snape's potions puzzle in PS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49123 You know, the one Hermione solves to get Harry through to the mirror. I have uploaded my analysis of the puzzle in the files section here. Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Essays and click on Snape's puzzle.doc My main finding is that the puzzle is a fair one (that is, the clues are not contradictory and point to a unique solution), and that Hermione would have been able to identify the contents of every bottle. Any thoughts? David From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Fri Jan 3 01:34:41 2003 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 17:34:41 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Alley OoP! Predictions/Deaths Etc In-Reply-To: <116.1cc012da.2b44fb31@aol.com> References: <116.1cc012da.2b44fb31@aol.com> Message-ID: <999652662.20030102173441@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49124 Wednesday, January 1, 2003, 6:17:21 PM, Sunnylove0 at aol.com wrote: Sac> Hagrid, Madame Maxime, and possibly Hagrid's mom die All three??! Sac> Malfoy will acquire a Firebolt and beat Harry to the snitch... He will be made team captain in return for LM buying each team member a Firebolt Mark II. Sac> More deaths and disapperances, probably including Lupin and Arthur and Molly Sac> Weasley. Will Harry have ANY adult role models left?? Sac> Draco will choose his side. Both he and Lucius will die. Sac> Dumbledore will die halfway through the book (not of AK). He will give Harry Sac> some much needed tips on his deathbed. Sac> One or more of the Trio will die. You're counting on a bloodbath, aren't you? Sac> Harry will defeat Voldemort in a forest in Albania (The Forest of Shadows, Sac> hence the rumored title) Rumored title? Have I missed something?? Sac> Snape will help Harry defeat Voldemort, finally be redeemed of his DE past, Sac> and elope with someone (please, not Rita Skeeter!) Nah... Rita's already going steady with herself. How about Prof. Sinistra? Other little "predictions" I've been nurturing over the holidays: -- Daedalus Diggle is a member of the "Old Crowd" and will coach Harry in broomstick duels. -- Music will somehow become important in fighting V's forces. -- Hagrid will will form a monster army to counter V's "army of creatures whom all fear". -- Harry will have to battle a Lethifold. (See _Fantastic Beasts_) -- At least one of the apparently inconsequential wiches/wizards depicted in the Wizard Cards for the _CoS_ computer game will emerge as pivotal to the Canon. ( Don't beat me! :) ) -- Dave From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 3 01:47:01 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak ) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 01:47:01 -0000 Subject: TBAY: MD and Alternate Theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49125 Pip stared with interest at the new visitor to the Safe House. > > "Er, pleased to meet you," stuttered Annemehr. She looked nervous at meeting so many prominent BAYers, and her face had gone slightly red. > > "What brings you to the bay?" asked Elkins in a kindly way. > > "Well," Annemher began, "there are two things. I have a little > catboat I am building in the shipyard out by the docks. I am > naming it the MALEVOLENCE - you know, "Malfoy's Affluence Lends > Effectiveness: Veiledly Opposes Longbottoms' Escaping Needless > Cruciatus Effects. (msg. #48316)" I aready have some nice can(n) > ons for it, but I won't be ready to launch it without a mast or a > sail. For a mast, I need to know, what kind of thing could the > Longbottoms have to say or do, that makes Lucius Malfoy feel he > needs to keep them incapacitated. Pip grins cheerfully. "The Longbottoms have something on Malfoy. Oh, yes. Something big and juicy, but Lucius was *such* a prominent citizen, Auror Frank made the mistake of thinking he needed more evidence..." Captain Cindy suddenly breaks in with: "Lucius found out Frank was investigating him, and then, *Bang* Lucius drops a little snippet of information to some over keen DE's that Frank Longbottom knows where Voldemort was last seen. Cue screams, pleadings for mercy, and Tortured Toddler!Neville (preferably clutching his teddy bear)". Elkins looks over at Cindy, and raises an eybrow. Quietly, in the background, Sneeky removes the brandy bottle. "Any canon for that, Cindy?" says the Pipsqueak. "Noo," says Cindy thoughtfully. "But none against, either." "And the injured Longbottoms get taken to St Mungo's, where Malfoy has his suborned magical medics waiting; primed to keep them seemingly insane for ever. Bangy." says the Pipsqueak. "No spies, though." says Elkins Pip frowns thoughtfully. "There's glimmerings of a conspiracy theory" Annemher coughs. After she's regained everyone's attention she continues: "And, I also need a sail (preferably a black one), or > my little boat will never get anywhere - why does Malfoy need to > keep them alive? Why not just have them killed? If anyone can > think of any way to help me out with this, I'd be grateful. I've > never built a boat before " "Why keep them alive?" says Cindy. Elkins stares bleakly into the distance. "The dead talk in the Potterverse." "They give entire lecture courses in history." says the Pipsqueak, rather more prosaicly. Elkins is still staring at something no one else can see. "It is the unhappy who become ghosts." "Well, if I'd spent the last twelve years or so falsely imprisoned in a mental ward, I wouldn't be exactly bubbling over with the joy of life." says Pip, determinedly trying to keep things on a more practical plane. "In fact, I might be dying to die, just so I can come back as a ghost and tell the world the sordid details about Mr Lucius Malfoy." Annemher looks even more embarrassed. > > "Er, yes, thank you for those suggestions. Anyway, on to the > reason for my visit to the Safe House. Ever since > I heard of the MAGIC DISHWASHER, I have been intrigued by it, > although my immediate reaction to it was that it couldn't be > true. I promised Grey Wolf once that I would reexamine PoA in > light of my new insights into the theory. > "Anyway, I did reread the shrieking shack scene to look for > possible interpretations. I ended > up with three interpretations, all of which seem valid to me." > "Okay," said Pip. "Let's see what you've got, then!" > Sneeky took the opportunity to press a cup of tea into Annemher's trembling fingers. She took a sip, and began. > > "First of all, there is the straightforward interpretation. Lupin > has been given the DADA job because he might also be a help in > defending the school and Harry from the murderous Sirius Black, > whom everyone believes to be the guilty one. Events unfold until > the SS scenes where Lupin, and then the trio, come to believe in > Black's innocence,and Pettigrew is exposed - unfortunately, while > Snape is lying on the floor unconscious. This is the way I > naturally read it, but I'm also aware that reading these books > that way is going to cause me to be fooled over and over! Still, > it's a perfectly valid possibility." > "A little boring, maybe," said Pip quietly to Cindy. > > "Oh, not really," put in Eloise. "It is quite a touching scene in > itself, as a way for Harry to find out some things about his > father's old friends. She smiled encouragingly at Annemehr. "They're all paranoid, murderous, and rather forgetful?" mutters Pip quietly to Cindy. Annemehr continues: "The second interpretation came to me when > something struck me about a line of Pettigrew's, when he was > trying to defend his spying for Voldemort: > 'He - he was taking over everywhere!' gasped Pettigrew. 'Wh - > what was there to be gained by refusing him?' > > "You see? What was to be gained by _refusing him! Don't you > think Pettigrew would be the type to want to lie low all through > VW1 and try to weather the storm? He probalbly would not dream of > going to Voldemort on his own. I think it entirely likely that > Voldemort captured Pettigrew to force him to turn spy, because he > knew Pettigrew would be a useful way to get at the Potters. And > just how did Voldemort know about Pettigrew? From his DE Snape, > of course! Snape fingered Pettigrew to Voldemort as a patsy who > liked to hang around wizards more powerful than himself and who > was sure to fold in the face of Voldemort's superior power. "Why Snape?" says Eloise. "Excuse me? " Annemehr stutters. "PoA p. 154 Ch. 10 UK hardback. Pettigrew is mentioned, and what's said about him? 'Pettigrew. That fat little boy who was always tagging around after them [James and Lupin] at Hogwarts?' It's not even one of the teachers who says this; it's Madame Rosmerta, who only ever saw the Hogwarts kids at weekends. *Any* student,teacher, or someone vaguely connected with Hogwarts could have told Voldemort that Pettigrew liked to hang around with the big boys." Annemehr looks rather worried. But Eloise suddenly gives her another encouraging smile. "Carry on, though. I like ideas that make me think." Annemehr continues: > Not long after this, Snape left to spy for Dumbledore. As Snape > obviously never told Dumbledore that Pettigrew was now working for > Voldemort, this has to be an Evil Double-Agent Snape Theory. > Snape knew that Pettigrew could transforminto a rat, but even > after Voldemort was vaporised, the two of them,while they hated > each other, never outed one another for fear of blowing their > own covers, so they lay low in their own positions.Then the SS > scene plays out in a similar way to MD, only Snape is > trying to prevent his own exposure, not help Dumbledore send > Voldmort a servant tainted by a life-debt. Furthermore, Snape can > well afford Pettigrew to return to help the Dark Lord return > because he can then reassume his double-agent role with loyalty to > Voldemort, since he had kept Pettigrew's secret. On the other > hand, if Voldemort does notsucceed in regaining power, Snape > merely retains his position atHogwarts as long as he has to. As > far as I can tell, this theory is also consistent with canon. "Well," said Pip thoughtfully. "It's consistent with canon if you can explain why EvilDoubleAgent!Snape mutters a countercurse to save Harry in PS/SS, directly against Quirrelmort's curse." "And there's the problem of the Shrieking Shack as well," adds Eloise. "Why is Snape so keen to save Harry, in the face of Voldemort' obvious desire (in PS/SS and as Tom Riddle in CoS) to kill the little brat? In fact, why doesn't EvilDoubleAgent!Snape just kill the lot of them? He's going into a situation where there's a known escaped murderer and a werewolf who hasn't taken his potion. It's the perfect explanation for as many dead bodies as he likes and a quick memory charm on anyone he actually doesn't want to kill." "Plus," says the Pipsqueak, "my problem with Dumbledore *not* knowing about Pettigrew is that in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39662 I argue that Dumbledore, as well as Snape, is directing the discussion in the Hospital away from rats [PoA p.286 Ch.21 UK hardback]. Dumbledore does it twice, in fact, in less than half a page of text. He interrupts Snape, and he gets Fudge, Snape and Poppy Pomfrey out of the room when Snape's reduced to screaming at Hermione to shut her up. [for full argument see #39662, link above]." Annemehr gulps, but continues gamely on: > "Finally, I considered MAGIC DISWASHER. The only possible canon > thatI could find against it is the presence of Lupin. To me, > Lupin seems to genuinely believe that Sirius was the traitor until > the moment in the shrieking shack when he realises that Sirius had > switched with Pettigrew. So why is he at Hogwarts? Under MD, > Dumbledore can not have hired him to help protect Harry from > Sirius. He must then have hired him either because: 1) Lupin was > truly the only one available for the DADA job, or 2) so Lupin > could help control Sirius should he manage to get into the castle > prematurely -because Sirius is rather a loose canon and Lupin > would be an extra insurance policy. But if #2 is true, then why > didn't Dumbledore tell him about Pettigrew? Pip and Melody, I'm sure this must have been brought up before, but I couldn't > find it anywhere." Pip shrugs. "Lupin's been discussed a couple of times. Pippin pointed out in a truly, briliantly twisted post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39362 message #39362 if that link doesn't work that Lupin might actually be Ever So Evil. It's certainly entirely arguable that Dumbledore wasn't completely sure who actually *was* the traitor in the Potter camp. A scenario where Black and Pettigrew simultaneously go "the Secret Keeper was Lupin? I thought James decided to switch it to you/keep it as you" would have been slightly embarrassing if Lupin had been in, say, Albania at the time of the Shrieking Shack. Plus there are the wondrous possibilities available when you consider that there might actually have been TWO traitors? Black/Pettigrew, or Pettigrew/Lupin, or Black/Lupin where Pettigrew's spent twelve years as a rat because he was terrified Evil!Lupin would kill him. A decent spymaster would have needed to consider *all* these possibilities until he has definite evidence about the real course of events. But with Lupin present at Hogwarts,Dumbledore has the jackpot. One or more of Black, Lupin or Pettigrew has to be a traitorous servant of Voldemort. One of them's got to be flawed potion material. And Snape is not happy about the risk Lupin represents. No, he's not happy at all." > > Annemher took another sip of her neglected tea and came to the > point. > "I like MD as a theory, especially if you can help me with that > one question I raised. But I don't see how I can choose it over > the other two. They are all perfectly valid under canon as far as > I can see, and I only have emotional reasons for preferring the > first one. I can't say that I > think any one of them is more likely to be truer than the others. > I certainly believe in the Safe House, and I like the fact that > the dishwasher is here. And, I am prepared to defend its > existence if it's attacked. So where does that leave me? > > "Pip and Melody, do you believe that MD is THE correct theory, > until proven otherwise? - or is it just A valid theory to you? Am > I a candidate for the Safe House or a friendly visitor when I come > to the 'BAY?" Pip grins. "Well, as I said when I opened this place up, back in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/40421 The Safe House is open to all spying and/or conspiracy theorists, whether or not they decide to wash their own dishes. I think anyone with a theory that Lucius Malfoy has secretly taken over St. Mungo's and is using it to hold inconvenient witnesses incommunicado is pretty far along the 'secret conspiracy of DE's to take over the WW' route. Would you like to be the madwoman in the attic? " Pip winked, to show she didn't mean it entirely seriously. "I think we have a vacancy." Pip!Squeak From editor at texas.net Fri Jan 3 02:05:17 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 20:05:17 -0600 Subject: Correction, was Re: Book Review: The Ivory Tower and Harry Potter References: <3E139DC1.D93D444E@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: <006e01c2b2cc$90ae26c0$a805a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 49126 Jazmyn said, in response to a comment about Ron: > You mean like Ron's assumptions about 'all Slytherins being bad > wizards'. (or evil wizards, as I doubt they would all would be bad.. > They could in fact be good evil wizards? Good at magic, that is.) ;) *poof of violet smoke; L.O.O.N. appears wielding spoon and bottle (whose peeling label can still be made out: Ye Olde Antidote to Creeping Movie Poisoning)* Say "aaaah"! In the book, it is Hagrid who passes this information to Harry. They gave the line to Ron in the Thing of Celluloid the First. Just clarifying. ~Amanda From cindysphynx at comcast.net Fri Jan 3 02:12:34 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C. ) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 02:12:34 -0000 Subject: TBAY/SHIP: Romance on the Big Bang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49127 Why in the world did Cindy just hand Derannimer her Big Paddle? This was not a good idea. No, this was most definitely a very *bad* idea. Cindy had just hoped to test the mettle of this new crewmember. Most recruits flinched when they caught sight of the Paddle. Or wept openly. Or fainted dead away. In the past, Cindy had only willfully allowed one other person to use her Big Paddle, if you can count having it *wrenched out of her hand* as willful. And that person had smashed it into a pile of jagged splinters. Cindy lifted her gaze from the paddle to Derannimer. Who smirked. And made a sudden motion with her arm that strongly resembled a backswing. "SAILOR!," Cindy barked. "I've got to get back to my ship. Got to try and round up the darn crew and all . . . ." "Captain, please," Derannimer carefully held the Paddle out to Cindy. "Please, I *really* think you better keep this. I *really* don't think I'm cut out to carry this thing around. "Besides, no one will take my shipping seriously if they see me with your Big Paddle. People usually flee the instant they see it." "There is that . . . " Cindy allowed thoughtfully, hiding her immense relief. "Besides, Captain. There's . . . well, there's a problem. Captain, you evaded a great many of my points back there. Correct me if I'm wrong, but for whatever reason, you *mangl*--you. . . didn't quite seem to address--what I meant about FITD. "The whole *point* of FITD is that it *cuts down* on mating rituals!" Derannimer continued recklessly. "The whole point of FITD-- the *definition* of FITD--is that everybody's love is *unrequited.* UNREQUITED! Meaning that no one is going to be kissing anyone! I mean, for an example, under R/H, Ron can kiss Hermione. Under H/H, Harry can kiss Hermione. Under FITD, Ron sure can't, because Hermione *doesn't want him to,* and if he tries to without her wanting him to (which he better not) she will smack him upside the head! And Harry can't either, because he's got no interest in --" "OK, now I've heard everything," Cindy interjected. "Not only are you trying to sell me on this idea that romance is Bangy, now you're trying to tell me that romance is Bangy even if there's no . . . even if no one . . . er . . . "Even if no one *gets any?*" Cindy finished uncomfortably, blushing a deep scarlet. "Face it, Captain: unrequited love is a lot less irritating than requited love is. Unrequited love is sappy angst. Requited love--the lynchpin of most other shipping theories--is sappy *sap.* Under FITD, no two people are going to be in a position to exchange any promise rings or any saliva, because no two people are reciprocating *anything.*" "Ah-ha! Unrequited love is *superfluous*, almost by definition! You just said it yourself -- nothing happens with unrequited love!" declared Cindy. "All we need to do is find Dicentra on the GARBAGESCOW and we can ?-" Derannimer rolled her eyes. "Focus *up,* Captain. The other nice thing about FITD, besides its blessed lack of happy, giggling couples, is the fact that we might not see it all. That is to say, since everybody is *unhappily* in love, everybody will be trying to act like there not in love. Successful love is *public*; unsuccessful love does its best to be *private.*" "WHAT?!" Cindy shrieked, flinging her hands upward. "Oh, this simply will not do aboard Big Bang! What is the overriding principal of Big Bang?" Cindy took a single step forward, her nose now an inch from Derannimer's. "I said," she repeated in a deadly whisper, "what is the overriding principal of Big Bang, Sailor?" Derannimer's unflinching eyes bored into the Captain's. "If we can't imagine a climactic Oscar-worthy scene in which a character chooses a dramatically different path because of a Big Event, then the theory won't fly under Big Bang," she recited in a dead, hollow sort of voice. "So," Cindy said, exhaling as she stepped backward, "you and your little FITD theory have a Big problem, don't you? If we don't see something, it is not Bangy. Repeat after me ?- if we don't see something, it is not Bangy. "Go on. Do not make me wait." "If we don't see something, it is not Bangy." "Right. Now, am I making all this up about how Banging works? Faith might think so, but what on earth does she know? JKR is a Banger! She loves to milk drama for all it is worth, right where you and I can see it! Personally, I did not think that graveyard scene in GoF would ever end! Or the Shrieking Shack scene. Oh, no. She doesn't let anything Big and Bangy happen off-screen if she can possibly help it. Look at what she has used so far to make sure the reader experiences first-hand the Bangs that JKR sets up. Dream sequences galore. Time Turners. Portkeys. Pensieves. Foe glasses. "And you expect me to believe that if JKR decides to do romance, the reader won't *see* it? That it will all be private? That Big Bang can accommodate romance that will be unrequited? No, shipping has a Big problem finding a place on Big Bang. Either it is requited and therefore Tew Eww to be Treww, or it is unrequited and therefore doesn't Bang and might even be superfluous." "Well," Derannimer said lightly, "Like it or not, Captain, we're going to have romance. The most we can hope for is that it doesn't get Light and Fluffy. FITD, whatever its faults, is not Light and Fluffy." "The most we can hope for," countered Cindy, "is that the romance is confined to less important characters, and stays outside the Trio! Now, what about Hermione and Neville? That could be -- what?" Cindy stopped abruptly as Derannimer collapsed to her knees in a fit of hopeless giggles. "What's wrong with Hermione and Neville?" "Captain, *Neville?* Poor little pudgy woobie *Neville?*" Derannimer managed to say this much, but then started giggling again. Cindy waited patiently for them to subside. "Well, Hermione might not see him that way!" Derannimer stopped laughing, and looked the Captain squarely in the eye. "Captain, please. Hermione *pities* Neville. Hermione *condescends* to Neville. If you honestly consider that the basis for a healthy relationship, then you are welcome to it. I think it would be kind of ugly to watch, myself." "Oh, now those are fighting words right there." "*Pity,* Captain? You're going to sustain the mighty SHIP Hermione/Neville with *pity?*" "Darn right I am," Cindy shot back. "Pity. The Ultimate Aphrodisiac." Derannimer threw back her head and laughed openly. "Oh, laugh all you want, but don't knock it 'til you've tried it, Sailor. Once you've had a man no one else wants, you'll never go back." Derannimer stood speechless. "Permission to speak freely, Captain." Cindy nodded slowly, silently wondering just what might be coming if Derannimer actually opened up a bit. "Frankly, Captain, you are just no good at this whole Ship thing. You have no flair for it at all. Do you have any experience with romance? Anything at all to report there?" Just then, a majestic horse pawed the ground next to Cindy, seeming to have appeared out of nowhere. She reached up and idly stroked the bridge of his nose. "There's no reason to get into that, really," Cindy said in a vague tone. She turned to face Derannimer, reaching deep into the pocket of her Captain's uniform. "Maybe you have a point. I think shipping just isn't my long suit." She pulled a single golden key from her pocket, fingering the chain which held it. Stenciled neatly on the side of the key were the words "Shipping Wing." "Derannimer, how would you like to be in charge of Big Bang's shipping wing? It's empty now because, well . . . We've never had shipping on Big Bang. But we should start right now, I think. Just keep the crew happy and make sure they Bang on a schedule. You don't want them going soft. Think you can handle that?" "Captain I ?- why, yes! I think I can handle that." Derannimer beamed at Cindy, took the key and hung it around her neck, tucking it into her uniform for safekeeping. "Excellent." Cindy turned toward the horse and vaulted herself onto its back, stretching her legs as much as she could to reach the stirrups. She flipped the horse's name tag over and regarded it quietly for just a moment: "AFFECTIVE FALLACY." "Anyway, Derannimer. I think you might want to keep something in mind when you do your shipping and Banging and whatever else you'll be doing in the Shipping wing." "What's that, Captain?" Cindy gathered the reins and pulled the horse's head gently in the direction of the Destroyer, which sat motionless on the horizon. "Always remember, Derannimer. Romantic relationships are a zero sum game." ****************** Cindy ******************* Hypothetic Alley: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/hypotheticalley.html Inish Alley: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database? method=reportRows&tbl=13 From siskiou at earthlink.net Fri Jan 3 02:32:13 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 18:32:13 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Time Turner In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <13015264542.20030102183213@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 49128 Hi, Thursday, January 02, 2003, 2:53:19 PM, Laura wrote: > They keep asking her but they never figured > it out. I was so frustrated...I mean, they live in the WIZARDING > world. There's this thing called MAGIC! *deep breath* I'm sorry, > it just drove me crazy to see that Harry and Ron, for how bright > they're supposed to be, never thought that there might be a magical > method of time travel. *end of Laura's rant* This was one reason that made me believe that the use of time turners is extremely restricted and mostly a secret, otherwise Ron would have heard of it before. One more thing why I thought it unlikely to be given to a student, just because she signed up for too many classes. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jan 3 03:06:58 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 03:06:58 -0000 Subject: A detailed analysis of Snape's hatred of Harry (S.N.O.T.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49129 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214 " wrote: > No, I don't think he is evil. But if he is really the kind of teacher > he seems to be, he is worse than evil. He is pathetic human >being, who should not be anywhere near children. > But what if Snape's not a human being at all? Without going into the whole Snape's a vampire theory, there are creatures in the Potterverse who look like human beings but aren't. As Hagrid says of his giantess mother, it's not in their nature to be protective of children. If non-humans are going to teach at Hogwarts and mingle with humans as equals in wizarding society, then obviously not all adults can be role models for human behavior. Pippin From dorigen at hotmail.com Fri Jan 3 03:31:00 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 03:31:00 +0000 Subject: I don't expect a complete bloodbath Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49130 Heavens. This is the Harry Potter series, not a Civil War novel with battlefields full of corpses. Personally, I expect one or two significant deaths and a much larger number of off-camera deaths (like the twelve muggles who were actually killed in Pettigrew's fake death). I don't think it will be Harry, Ron, or Hermione. I'd be surprised if it were Dumbledore, but if it is, I think he'll continue on as a ghost. I think the most likely candidate would be a member of the Weasley family or of the Hogwarts faculty. Of the first, Arthur, Percy, Bill, or Charlie, because the others are still at Hogwarts and protected by Dumbledore. Of the second, any of the faculty who habitually leave Hogwarts -- which would be Snape, Dumbledore (on one of his trips to the Ministry of Magic), or, my absolute last choice, Hagrid. I disagree, however, that characters will be dropping like flies in the last three books. After all, in *four* books we've only had one death. Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8 is here: Try it free* for 2 months http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup From srsiriusblack at aol.com Fri Jan 3 03:48:22 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 22:48:22 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] I don't expect a complete bloodbath Message-ID: <15a.19c17d14.2b466206@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49131 In a message dated 02/01/2003 22:33:43 Eastern Standard Time, dorigen at hotmail.com writes: > -- which would be Snape, Dumbledore (on one of his trips to the Ministry of > Magic), or, my absolute last choice, Hagrid. > > I disagree, however, that characters will be dropping like flies in the > last > three books. After all, in *four* books we've only had one death. > Firstly, Hagrid is my absolute last choice of the staff.. only because I don't see the death of Snape as a great story line. ( and I hardly think my snape/black/lupin loving heart could handle it... but then, I am a softy for Hagrid as well.) Yet, JKR has stated in interviews that there will be many deaths in the coming books. I suspect that we will see quite a bit of bloodshed and loss. IMHO we haven't seen as much death as there is to come because the books mature with the targeted reader, i.e. children who read PS at Harry's age in PS are now 15-17 years old and have a greater constitution, understanding, and ability to deal with the losses yet to come.... Sadly, if people like Hagrid start dying, I don't think I will be able to deal with it. ;) 'Course this is all speculation... -Snuffles, now rewriting the 80's Dire Straits song to say "I want my Potter Book Five" "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Jan 3 04:21:09 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 22:21:09 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] I don't expect a complete bloodbath References: Message-ID: <005b01c2b2df$8b6d9160$8fa2cdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 49132 Janet Anderson writes: > Heavens. This is the Harry Potter series, not a Civil War novel with > battlefields full of corpses. > Personally, I expect one or two significant deaths and a much larger number > of off-camera deaths (like the twelve muggles who were actually killed in > Pettigrew's fake death). I don't think it will be Harry, Ron, or Hermione. Do you mean one or two significant deaths plus various off-camera deaths in Book 5? Or in the rest of the series? > I disagree, however, that characters will be dropping like flies in the last > three books. After all, in *four* books we've only had one death. Really? Look at it this way. In SS/PS, Voldemort is a vapor, yet kills Quirrell (as far as we know) by leaving his body. In GoF, while still in ugly baby form, Voldemort kills Bertha Jorkins and Frank Bryce. Crouch Jr, a DE, kills his father. Wormtail (under instruction from Voldemort) kills Cedric. That's 1 death in the first three books. Four deaths in the fourth book. All before Voldemort's body was restored and before the DE's rejoined him. We haven't even had a taste of what Voldemort is all about. Take a look at what happened before. The little we know. Hagrid names off a few who were killed (and is in the midst of naming "some of the best witches and wizards" not just any muggle or whatever who was killed). Not to mention Harry's parents. Muggles in the wrong place at the wrong time (Pettigrew), etc. To quote JKR from a interview after GoF came out (interview by Evan from cbc.ca): E: Writers often say "I loved that character and the most tragic part of my year last year was having to kill them off." JKR: Well, that's coming. E: Do you konw already who is going to die in the next books? JKR: I know all of them who are going to die, yeah. E: And some characters we might love and you might love? JKR: I'm definitely killing people I love, yeah. It's horrible isn't it? It is actually. I cried during the writing of that one (Cedric) for the first time ever. I cried doing the actual writing of it. It really upset me. E: But in the future there's even more. . . JKR: There's worse coming. E: Is there? There's even worse coming, isn't there? JKR: I don't know why I'm laughing. It's mild hysteria. I've got all these children peering at me. If they knew I was talking about slaughtering their favorite characters. At this point GoF had already been published. So the killing of people she loves, the worse to come, will happen in books 5, 6, and 7. In OotP I believe that there will be deaths. One, two, three at most (of previously named characters). It's possible that some others will die, muggles, muggle born, people not known to Harry as the DE's begin to rampage. But I think most of that won't come until Book 6. It has to get dark, very dark. JKR has even commented that she hestitates to recommend her books for young (6, 7) children because she knows what's coming. And that's after GoF. So it's got to be worse. It's not that I think every person Harry's ever trusted will die. I think Hagrid's inevitible, as is Dumbledore (eventually). Certain Weasleys (and I frequently change my mind as to which), probably Lupin. But that still leaves some. The remaining Weasleys, Hermione, Sirius, etc. Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Malady579 at hotmail.com Fri Jan 3 04:33:37 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody ) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 04:33:37 -0000 Subject: TBAY: A new room (was: MD and theories) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49133 "The Safe House is open to all spying and/or conspiracy theorists, whether or not they decide to wash their own dishes. I think anyone with a theory that Lucius Malfoy has secretly taken over St. Mungo's and is using it to hold inconvenient witnesses incommunicado is pretty far along the 'secret conspiracy of DE's to take over the WW' route. So, I think we have a vacancy," said Pip as she sat back in her favorite chair. Melody looked over at Pip and opened her mouth to say something but thought the best to keep her mouth shut. Annemehr, blind to the world, was beaming. She rocked on her heels and squealed, "Oh really? Oh, I don't have much stuff, and I will try to stay out of the way. Oh, let me go get my things." Annemehr jumped up and bolted out the front door to the amusement of all in the living room. "Well I hate to run off as well, but I have to get back to the Big Bang. I left Derannimer in charge, so I am afraid the whole thing might be covered in lurid pink hearts by now," Cindy said as she raising herself out of the chair with a look of disgust that would outmatch Snape's any day. "Oh, is it that late?" Eloise asked looking at the safe house's grandfather clock (muggle version). "Oh sugar, I have got to leave too. The castle gets so creepy after dark. Oh, but I rode with you on your hobby horse Elkins. Do you mind?" "Oh, of course not, Eloise. I should probably be going as well. Not quite sure where I live, but I should be going back to it nonetheless," Elkins said reaching for her coat. "Well then ladies, it has been a pleasure," Pip said showing them the door. Melody dawdled along behind them and bullied up a smile and a wave good bye. The normal farewells were given and the three guests were off. Pip closed the door and went back to the living room to clear the coffee table with Melody dragging a bit more than normal behind her. "Ok Mel. What is wrong?" Pip asked collecting the teacups. "Nothing," Melody said flopping on the couch looking away from Pip. "Oh, don't give me *that*. You were quiet during the whole time she was here, and now you are pouting on the couch. What is wrong?" Pip asked again with a hint of annoyance. Melody flipped over and rested her chin on the arm of the couch. "You just invited her to stay with us. Just like that. No house meeting, no questionnaire to fill out. She just can move in." Pip sighed and put down the tea tray. "Melody this is not your house. And besides, she *does* qualify. Her theory is spy worthy. You know, I think you should be the one to show her to her new room. Seeming that you will now be housemates." Pip picked back up the tray and turned back to the kitchen. The tone of her steps told Melody this was final. "Fine. Just fine," Melody pouted and looked around the room. Her eyes feel on the ax, and she deeply wished she could lift it. A small knock was heard on the front door followed by Pip calling "Melody, get that love." Melody rose up and pounded her way to the door. She opened it large to see Annemehr there with a small suitcase. "Come in, Come in. I'll show you were you can stay," she growled slightly under a forced smile. She may not like this arrangement, but she still had to live with her. Annemehr, still on her non-orphan status high, bounded into the safe house and followed Melody through the foyer firing questions along the way. "Do only the three of you live here?" Annemehr asked looking up at the vaulted ceiling. "No, there is the RATS room around that corner where Meg and Frankie stay, but they tend to keep to themselves. Pip's room is up those revolving stairs, and I live up the stairs to the back of the house," Melody explained as she pointed to the rooms absentmindedly while they walked to a side corridor. "And where does Grey Wolf live?" Annemehr asked with great interest. Melody lifted her hand to her right and pointed, "Up the stairs to the west wing of the house." Annemehr eyes got big. "Is he there now?" "Yeah, but he is in a sort of hibernation. He tends to be nonresponsive right now, and he won't remember any of this till Spring." Melody turned left down a long hall. Annemehr skipped a little to keep up. "He is very courteous," she nodded. "Who? Grey?" Melody asked a bit surprised Annemehr saw that in him. "Yeah he can be. Just don't put masking tape on his tail. He hates that." Annemehr stopped and looked at the girl. "You did that?" Melody paused and looked back at Annemehr with a mischievous grin. "Only once. Here - this is your room." Annemehr stepped into her bright, cheerful room. "Oh this is perfect." Melody leaned against the doorframe. "You can decorate as you wish. And don't feel you have to jump in to defend the dishwasher. You can stay here even if you wash your dishes by hand," Melody repeated from Pip's speech. "Oh, but I do like MD. I do. It is just..." Annemehr said placing her suitcase on the bed. "Can I ask you a question that you did not answer before?" Melody nodded. "I certainly believe in the Safe House, and I like the fact that the dishwasher is here. And, I am prepared to defend its existence if it's attacked. But I don't see how I can choose it over the other two. They are all perfectly valid under canon as far as I can see. So am I really a candidate for the Safe House or a friendly visitor when I come to the 'BAY?" Annemehr asked without a breath. Melody finally relaxed and smiled at the new occupant. She remembers once what it was like to be so new to it all too. "Well, Pip invited you to stay, so you *are* welcome here. Really anyone here *is* welcome to stay at the safe house as long as they work within the realm of spies or conspiracies. But, please don't feel you *have to* defend the dishwasher. A room in the safe house does not mean you must be a card carrying member of MDDT. That is not a requirement for a room at all. In fact, those other two women that I mention that are in the RATS room just support the theory and cheer from the sidelines. Maybe you would rather be a part of our cheerleading squad. They practice out on the lawn every Wednesday. But seriously, just make yourself at home and go about theorizing at will. No pressure." "Ok, then I have one more question about MD," Annemehr said refolding her clothes into the dresser. "Do you believe that MD is THE correct theory, until proven otherwise? - or is it just A valid theory to you?" Melody shifted her weight and leaned her back against the doorframe. "Well - I think we of MDDT do believe that MD is *the* correct theory. There are patches to it, but the basic premise, we do firmly believe in it. Part of the reason we defend it so strongly, and *I* think it is rather a requirement to firmly believe in it in order to join MDDT; however, I am not the one that has the power to make that restrictions. It is more a way of how it is, since so many then attribute the theory to you. That way if the dishwasher suddenly breaks, (Heaven forbid!) it is only MDDT that is on the line and not the supporters. I guess I am giving you a life raft really. Pip, Grey, and I are past that point. But, those that *just* support it do not have to be that strict in their views. You can like MD and others if you wish. In fact, you can jump in and out of the different theories throwing your support wherever you want." Annemehr smiled and went to open the curtains to her room and admire the view. Shuffling her feet a little at the door, Melody asked, "May I ask *you* a question about your theory about Lucius and Longbottum?" "But of course Melody," Annemehr said giving the girl a peculiar look. "I was wondering why you did not pip up before in the living room." "Involuntary vow of silence I guess," Melody sniffed, "But I was wondering why Mrs. Longbottum had to be insane in your theory? Why must she also have the same fate?" "Well, that is why I was asking for a mast and sail. I don't really know. Or rather, the canon is still vague on that part," Annemehr frowned as she sat on her bed. "I guess most assume the DE's think Frank told his wife secrets and things that could damage them, but that is not like spies or secret agents to do that. They want to protect their family, right? So I wonder why torture her in the first place on the off chance that she would know something. That seems rather odd to me," Melody said sliding her back down the doorframe so she could sit down comfortably. Annemehr let her eyes glaze over a bit. "Well they are DE's. They *like* torturing people. But really this comes back to why Lucius would sic the DE's on the Longbottoms in the first place." "You could say they are related," Melody offered. "Kind of a blood brothers sort of thing maybe or actually they could be fully related." "But what proof is there in that?" Annemehr asked leaning back on the pillows. "Hmmm, what about the fact the Longbottoms and Malfoys are both from a long line of wizards and witches. Yeah, that could work," Melody said counting on her fingers, "Seems there would be enough inbreeding that the Longbottoms and Malfoys could be very well related to a degree that Lucius would not want them dead, but just incapacitated." "I'm not sure if I want to go that direction, but it is possible," Annemehr said cautiously. "Really Annemehr, you have so little canon it is hard to say a true motive. I mean it could be the basic, 'Frank has really good dirt on Lucius', or even 'Lucius is jealous of Frank's popularity', or the long shot 'Narcissa and Mrs. Longbottom entered in a bake off where Mrs. L's sparkling brownies won first prize against Mrs. M's lemon squares'." "You're definitely from the South, Melody," Annemehr said shaking her head. "Hey, the bake offs at the state fair are a *big* deal down here, and don't even get me started on the cheerleading tryouts," Melody said shuddering but smiling. This new housemate might be ok after all. "Do you think my theory has a chance of actually getting more canon in the future?" Annemehr asked as she breathed in deeply and watched a bird fly past the window and then looked over at Melody. Had Annemehr not looked away at that moment, she would of seen quite a sight as Coney jumped deftly in the air after the small bird in a beautiful arch. Melody blinked a bit wondering if she should introduce Annemehr to Coney but decided she better wait after she cleans Coney of the bird feathers. "Yeah I think we can bank on that Annemehr. I think we can. There is a reason they are still alive I believe, and your theory is a good one. Maybe it is best you put up the mast and sail in a guesture of good faith to there being future canon on the motivation. But for now, you can only have a few sketched out as possibilities." "Hey!" Melody said as a thought popped in her head. "We have Lucius and Arthur and the whole imperious threat. So maybe there is another parallel between Lucius and Frank. A kind of threaten the pureblood family type of thing, so that the Malfoys have the distinct title of being the oldest pure blood family. That could be a possibility." "It is possible," Annemehr offered but with not much certainty. "Oh dear, there are too many options to choose from." "I guess mostly it lies around these few facts," Melody reached over to the desk in Annemehr's room, opened a drawer, and took out a chalkboard and chalk. 1. Malfoys and Longbottoms are pure blood wizard family 2. Malfoy - DE : Frank - Auror 3. Narcissa and Frank's wife are probably close to the same age 4. If #3 is not true, then their kids are definitely the same age 5. Longbottoms - popular then : Malfoys - well connected now 6. Lucius - has a thing for torture : Longbottoms - tortured "Not too much, but enough to work with I think. Here, you can write more as they come to you. Have I helped at all?" Melody asked earnestly and handed the chalkboard to Annemehr. "You have Melody. You all have. At least, I have more to chew over. And a place out from the cold," Annemehr smiled as she took the chalkboard. "Then I will leave you," Melody curtsied and walked to the door. "Oh, and Annemehr," Melody said as she crossed the doorway and turned and smiled. "Welcome to the safe house." Melody :) From Sunnylove0 at aol.com Fri Jan 3 04:33:46 2003 From: Sunnylove0 at aol.com (Sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 23:33:46 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Alley OoP! Predictions/Deaths Etc Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49134 In a message dated 1/2/2003 6:33:57 PM Mountain Standard Time, DaveH47 at mindspring.com writes: > > > Will Harry have ANY adult role models left?? Maybe Sirius, but I doubt it. > > > You're counting on a bloodbath, aren't you? > > Sac> Harry will defeat Voldemort in a forest in Albania (The Forest of > Shadows, > Sac> hence the rumored title) > > Rumored title? Have I missed something?? I've heard it on some of the rumor sites. I wouldn't say it for a fact, tho. > Sac> Snape will help Harry defeat Voldemort, finally be redeemed of his DE > past, > Sac> and elope with someone (please, not Rita Skeeter!) > > Nah... Rita's already going steady with herself. How about > Prof. Sinistra? > Good Non-dead McGonagall? Hermione? The not-so-distraught widow Narcissa? The Queen of Serpents (who wonders if there are any FEATHERBOAS left) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jan 3 07:22:10 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 07:22:10 -0000 Subject: Harry dying In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49136 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "soccergurl512 " wrote: > HI > I am new to this board, and I was reading some back posts about > who would die next, and I had a though. I think that maybe Harry would die (or be captured by Voldie) and then Hermionie and Ron would > have to rescure him or some how bring him back to life. What do you > guys think? > > Jenny bboy_mn adds: In the somewhat distant past, I pointed out in a similar discussion that there is dying and then there is dying; the two not necessarily being the same. Real people, ordinary everyday people die and come back to live all the time. Of course, their dying hinges on a definition of dying. If you heart and lungs stop, but some stretch of the definition you are dead. But through CPR, heart masage, electroshock, etc... you can come back to life. Now in the magic world we have VooDoo zombies, which are people who are made to appear dead my nearly all common definitions. They are buried, and the VooDoo witch doctor digs them up, revives them, and keeps them a zombie slaves. My only point here is that death and rebirth are not foreign concepts to magic. So, my death and rebirth theory is that for Voldemort to die, Harry must die. So, unknown to most people, perhaps even unknown to Harry, Dumbledore creates a potion or enchantment that will let Harry die by some definition. This death will instantly make Voldemort vulnerable; and he will be quick and permanently dispatched. Then Harry will be revived, having been dead by some definition, but not having been truly and irrevocably dead. The savior of the wizard race died and was reborn. A story as old as time. Just a thought. bboy_mn From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Fri Jan 3 07:38:27 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 02:38:27 EST Subject: Quirrell dying/possession (WAS: Re: [HPforGrownups] Harry dying) Message-ID: <1a4.e912b57.2b4697f3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49137 In a message dated 1/2/2003 7:22:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, stormlass at yahoo.com writes: > Did Quirrel actually die in the book? I know he did in the movie but... I > do not remember Quirrel actually dying... I thought he was in the hospital > wing with Harry? Am I reading too much fanfiction? I lent my book to someone, so I don't have the exact quote, but at the end of PS/SS Dumbledore says something along the lines of: Voldemort left Quirrell to die. He shows just as little mercy to his followers as to his enemies. This actually brings up another question (for me anyway). Did *Dumbledore* leave Quirrell to die as well? I think it's more than safe to assume that Dumbledore was the one who pulled Harry and Quirrell apart when Harry decided to get touchy-feely with Quirrell so he could prevent him from getting the stone/killing him. What did he do with Quirrell? Did anything happen between Dumbledore and Voldemort? Did Voldemort actually *kill* Quirrell, not just leave him to die? From the part where Harry sees him coming out of a classroom and thinks he's finally given into Snape, I think its apparent that Voldemort was about to cause some kind of harm to Quirrell whilst sharing the man's soul/body. Hey! That gives me another thought. Do you think the possessor could control the possessie's internal self? (like close their lungs, make them hemmorage, or (as the lovely person who just entered the room wondering what I'm doing up just suggested ^^) squeaze their heart until it explodes.) ~Cassie-who has actually written a lot of 'If Quirrell didn't die' fics herself~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silveroak_us at yahoo.com Fri Jan 3 03:49:28 2003 From: silveroak_us at yahoo.com (silveroak_us ) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 03:49:28 -0000 Subject: Harry in Azkaban (was Harry's Trip/Penelope, etc) In-Reply-To: <140.6ae7e70.2b45ea67@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49138 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, wynnde1 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 02/01/2003 07:17:03 GMT Standard Time, sammerz2388 at a... > writes: > > > > Okay, yes, *why* would Harry Potter be in Azkaban? Well, here's the scenario which popped into my mind right away - Harry is > sent to Azkaban for using an unforgivebale curse (AK) to murder Cedric > Diggory. If this scenario should arise, I would hope that the Wizarding World would remember the "Prior Incatato" spell and check Harry's wand. I suspect there would be no evidence that the Avada Kedavra curse came from his wand. I further hope that such evidence would be considered strong enough to protect Harry from a miscarriage of justice. ** Martin Miggs, the Mad Muggle ** From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Fri Jan 3 04:42:17 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 22:42:17 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Correction, was Re: Book Review: The Ivory Tower and Harry Potter References: <3E139DC1.D93D444E@pacificpuma.com> <006e01c2b2cc$90ae26c0$a805a6d8@texas.net> Message-ID: <3E1514A9.B5079003@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49139 Amanda Geist wrote: > > Jazmyn said, in response to a comment about Ron: > > > You mean like Ron's assumptions about 'all Slytherins being bad > > wizards'. (or evil wizards, as I doubt they would all would be bad.. > > They could in fact be good evil wizards? Good at magic, that is.) > ;) > > *poof of violet smoke; L.O.O.N. appears wielding spoon and bottle > (whose > peeling label can still be made out: Ye Olde Antidote to Creeping > Movie > Poisoning)* Say "aaaah"! > > In the book, it is Hagrid who passes this information to Harry. They > gave > the line to Ron in the Thing of Celluloid the First. > > Just clarifying. > > ~Amanda > BOOK QUOTE "What house are your brothers in?" asked Harry. "Gryffindor," said Ron. Gloom seemed to be settling on him again. "Mom and Dad were in it, too. I don't know what they'll say if I'm not. I don't suppose Ravenclaw would be too bad, but imagine if they put me in Slytherin." "That's the house Vol-, I mean, You-Know-Who was in?" "Yeah," said Ron. He flopped back into his seat, looking depressed. END BOOK QUOTE Sounds to me like he is making out that Slytherin is the 'evil/bad' house and it would be a great shame on his family if he ended up there. Like, just because Voledemort was from that house that it would ruin him somehow if he was picked for that house... Jazmyn From the.gremlin at verizon.net Fri Jan 3 08:37:39 2003 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 2:37:39 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry dying Message-ID: <20030103083739.VICZ10203.pop017.verizon.net@[127.0.0.1]> No: HPFGUIDX 49140 snapesrighthand wrote: "Did Quirrel actually die in the book? I know he did in the movie but... I do not remember Quirrel actually dying... I thought he was in the hospital wing with Harry? Am I reading too much fanfiction?" "Then . . . four years ago . . . the means for my return seemed assured. A wizard -- young, foolish, and gullible --wandered across my path in the forest I had made my home. . . .I took posession of his body, to supervise him closely as he carried out my orders. But my plan failed. *The servant died when I left his body*, and I was left as weak as ever I had been" (GoF, US Paperback, 654, emphasis mine). -Acire, who thinks that this ought to qualify her as a L.O.O.N., considering the fact that she used a copy of GoF that has been waiting to be returned to the bookstore because it was a birthday gift from a friend who did not realize GoF was already owned. That, or maybe this means she needs a life. From the.gremlin at verizon.net Fri Jan 3 08:51:39 2003 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 2:51:39 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A detailed analysis of Snape's hatred of Harry (S.N.O.T.) Message-ID: <20030103085139.VIME10203.pop017.verizon.net@[127.0.0.1]> No: HPFGUIDX 49141 would first like to state that I do not have books with me, as they are at school, and I am at home...seriously getting second set. I am also not sure how long this will get. Diana wrote "Not knowing Snape's true history with the Death Eaters, I don't know if Snape was always a spy for Dumbledore or is a former evil DE now working for the good side." I am of the belief that Snape was a DE first then changed, but that doesn't matter for this post. "Let's start with Snape as a child in school." We ony have a rather biased view of what Snape was like in school. So we can only go on what Sirius toold HRH. Sirius hates Snape. "I imagine Snape is very much like Draco Malfoy at that age. Sirius even says in PoA, while explaining the "prank" they played on Snape to H/H/R in the Shrieking Shack, that Malfoy was always sneaking around trying to catch James, Remus and Sirius (and probably that rat Peter) doing something against the rules so they would be expelled. This is what Malfoy does constantly - try to get Harry expelled." IIRC, Malfoy has only done this *once*, in PS/SS, and he got in trouble for it. Since then, he has taken to insults about Harry and his friends. We only know of the one incident in which Snape snuck about trying to get MWPP in trouble. >From Sirius's statement, we can either believe that wherever MWPP went, Snape wasn't too far behind, or that Snape got suspicious of MWPP and acted upong the suspicion-wrongly. Harry has thought to himself that Snape has given the impression of the ability to read minds, but he doesn't seem to be able to. He's just really observant and can put two and two together-like only he can. "Snape was jealous of James' popularity, skill at Quidditch and his small group of close-knit friends, all of which Harry now has at Hogwart's." James and Harry appear to get away with a lot. Snape believes that there is nothing special about Harry or James. Now, Harrry is a cool kid, and powerful wizard, but there really is nothing special about him. He defeated V-Mort the first time with the help of his mother. He has defeated V-Mort the second, third, and fourth times because the incident has left an impression on him, and he is a stringer person because of it. It's like a musician who is extremely famous and writes awesome lyrics because their family situation as a child wasn't that great, yet they came out of it and conquered. I would like to take this time to apologize for the rest of this post, as I had just finished it when I hit the wrong button and lost half of it. Any spelling errors, grammatical mistakes, and anything else are attributed to rushing so I could hand the computer to those in line for it. "He even attributes "strutting" to James, and to Harry, though nothing in canon suggests that James actually strutted around the school. [C'mon, we all know James didn't strut, right?] We know for a fact Harry doesn't "strut"." We don't have canon that James *did* strut. I can see, as a typical teen, James strutting a little after he won a Gryffendor/Slytherin Quidditch match. But James and Lily *were not perfect*!!! Just because those who liked them attribute martyr's qualities to them does not mean they didn't do bad things! "Well, I would say that Snape went to Hogwart's with a vision himself as *the* person [instead of James] who *deserved* the popularity, athletic ability and fun-loving personality that James must have had. The problem was that Snape didn't have any of those things and these are things that can be gained by waving a magic wand and wishing them to be so." I have seen arguments that Snape was popular in his own right, just not the same way James was popular. I don't think Snape was the kind of person who would want that kind of popularity. We do not have canon evidence to his athletic ability, but we can infer from canon that he was somewhat good at Quidditch, or at least is a good enough flyer, and knows enough about Quidditch to be allowed, by Madame Hooch and the rest of the staff, to referee a Quidditch game. I don't see Madame Hooch allowing Hagrid to referee a Quidditch match. Of surse, there could be other reasons for that, but I don't think DD would let someone who didn't know Quidditch that well referee a Quidditch match. "Despite Snape??s mistaken belief that James only saved Snape from Wolf!Lupin to save himself from being expelled, Snape still owes James a life debt, which according to Dumbledore is a serious thing in the Wizarding World." Again, don't have books, but if IIRC, DD tells Harry that Snape takes this life- dect very seriously. I mean, Snape was a former DE, who hated James, yet is trying to return the life-debt 12 years after the man is dead. Peter doesn't seem to take his life-debt very seriously, and he's a current DE. "Unlike when he was just a powerless classmate of James, Snape, as an adult and a professor, now has power to inflict verbal abuse, bullying and punishment on Harry, who not only follows his father??s path in Hogwarts but even looks remarkably like him! " How exactly was Snape 'powerless'? He knew more curses going into his first year then most of the seventh years! He was a future DE! He is also very sarcastic and witty. How was it not possible for him to go u to MWPP and silkily tell them off, or curse them while they were sleeping or something? I don't think Snape was powerless as a school-kid. "Harry breaks the rules anyway despite his anxiety of caught and expelled because, like his father, it??s part of his very nature." So you're saying that it's all right for Harry to completely abandon the rules because it's just what kind of person he is? Just because it's his natural tendency? Well no wonder Snape hates him, if he gets off just because teachers can say "Oh, it's not his fault, it's just who he is." "Snape can??t understand this and sees Harry??s rule-breaking as Harry proclaiming how special and famous he is ?Vso special and famous he won??t be punished for breaking rules." It is proclaiming how special Harry is, if we go with your theory. If Harry is allowed to break rules because it's his natural tendency, I would hate him too. IIRC (I know I'm using that phrase a lot), most of the times harry gets punished by Snape (with the exception of the escape of Sirius), it's because he is breaking a rule for no reason, such as the flying car incident, sneaking into Hogsmeade, or wandering around Hogwarts at night. He's not supposed to do any of this things, and he has *no reason* to do them. Even DD threatened to expel Harry after the car, and Harry was just lucky Lupin saved the day after the Hogsmeade incident. Snape thinks that Harry's head is so big that he believes rules are above him, as he states in PoA, after Malfoy catches him in Hogsmeade. Harry is breaking the rules knowingly, not because he thinks he's special, but because he is being selfish, as in Hogsmead, or not thinking, as in the flying car. "When Harry is called out of class for photos with the other champions, Snape is furious because Harry??s luck and *better* life has triumphed again and Snape was denied his little *torture of Harry* session." Actually, I think that this had to do with the fact that Harry was included as one of the champions, not because he missed his chance to torture Harry. And I think the poisoning incident had something to do with the fact that Harry wasn't even old enough or qualified to be a champion, yet he was going to be allowed to anyway, because of the whole binding contract thing. At the end of PoA, Snape is denied a chance to bask in some glory and fame by being the person who saved the life of the famous Harry Potter, so he vents with his bitter and nearly unhinged verbal attack on Harry and Hermione in the hospital ward. I don't think Snape was in it to save Harry's life. He didn't even know HRH were in the Shrieking Shack because the map didn't show that part. I think that he ws in the SS because he wanted to prove that he was right about Sirius and Lupin being the bad guys, and got mad at HRH because they interfered. Saving Harry's life was an afterthought, when he realized the kids were there. "Snape can??t claim he saved Harry??s life by muttering a counter-curse to Quirrell??s attempt to kill Harry at the Quidditch match in PS/SS because Quirrell stopped jinxing the broom before Hermione interrupted Snape??s counter- curse by setting his cape on fire." Yes, he can. Quirrel had to stop his curse when Hermione knocked him over in her rush to set Snape on fire. Quirrel even admitted the fact that if Snape hadn't been doing the counter-curse, Harry would have fallen off sooner. DD told Harry (I think) that Snape saved his life, and Harry admits it in GoF, to Sirius, in fact! Snape can easily say "I saved your life, Potter", and maybe even use it against Harry, but he doesn't. So, to conclude, Snape is an unpleasant, hateful, spiteful and petty person." Just out of curiosity (seriously, not trying to be mean), did you consider how many flames you would you get in defense of Snape from all his fans? There are quite a few on this list I feel sorry for you inbox .:D "I cannot see Snape changing such a basic tenet of his personality and part of his life ?V his intense hatred for, then Harry ?V in some future book." Other posts (don't ask me which ones) have argued that Snape will, and is, growing throughout the series, and someone (again, don 't ask me who) has said that at the end of GoF, when Harry and Snape meet eyes, they both realize that there is more to the other then they previously thought, based on events and admissions from the past week. "I wouldn??t be surprised though if the ever observant Harry finally connects the dots and sees Snape for how pathetic his hatred really is." Harry called Snape pathetic to his face in PoA, right before HRH hit him with a disarming spell. "If Harry does that he will take away what Snape most enjoys ?V getting a rise and reaction out of Harry." It doesn't seem to me like Snape enjoys that. It only makes him more venomous, when Harry stands up for himself, friends, or parents. The only time Snape enjoys getting a reaction out of Harry is when Harry is trying to get to DD so he can take him to Crouch in the forest (GoF), and Snape is not letting him go. The text says right there that Snape is clearly enjoying denying the thing that Harry wants when he is so panicky (must take a vacation away from HP). In GoF, when Snape is muttering all those accusations about Harry breaking into his office, he doesn't start getting angry until Harry actually responds. "I imagine Harry *might* feel some pity for Snape ?V a man??s whose intense jealousy of Harry??s father has shaped his very being." You are completely forgetting what Snape fans, and some others, are most interested about: Snape's past as a DE, and why he changed. Extremely important in deciding what exactly makes Snape tick. And deep down, I think Harry just hates Snape, though is likely to change in the next books. "Sorry for the novel-length post. ??" I can't feel my wrist, having done this twice. I also apologize if my tone at any place seems insulting or hurtful; I'm just angry at having to do this twice stupid technology. I also know that several people have responded to the Diana's original post, but I'll sort through those tomorrow, when I get my laptop back, and compile my responses to those (if have any) in one post. -Acire, Snape's personal defense attorney (if he would have need of one without any legal training whatsoever). From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Fri Jan 3 09:54:27 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 04:54:27 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] A detailed analysis of Snape's hatred of Harry (S.N.O.T.) Message-ID: <85.24db3248.2b46b7d3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49142 Has it been taken into account that the books are basically if not totally written from the point of view of a young boy? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the one person who never actually directly says he hates Harry is Snape. Hate is an awfully strong word. In PS/SS, Harry is quick to accuse Snape just because he (as Quirrell said) 'seems the type'. The same could apply for Snape's 'hatred' of Harry. I know when I was younger (and even now...I'm a rather insecure person ^^;) and I was reprimanded or yelled at or something I would automatically think 'They hate me.' Granted, Snape *does* go a bit overboard, though. I think this is just because he refuses to change for anyone but himself. If we are to accept that Harry's need for adventure and rule breaking as natural, then why shouldn't we accept Snape's attitudes/tendencies as such? Snape seems to be a man who is honest about his feelings (depending on the situation. I imagine there are a few of his colleages he's dying to tell off) and likes to vent them without any sugar coating. ~Cassie~ Mind, I don't think that Snape loves Harry now =P [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Fri Jan 3 11:34:30 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 06:34:30 EST Subject: FILK -- Forbidden Curses Message-ID: <6b.61d0325.2b46cf46@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49143 "Forbidden Curses" To the Tune of "Forbidden Hades" >From the Sera Myu, "Tanjou! Ankoku no Purinsesu Burakku Redii" To hear the clip of the filk go to: http://www.geocities.com/lordcassandra/fcfilk.mp3 (If you can't get it, wait an hour and try again. Geocities is evil.) Yes, I was insane enough to record myself singing. Here are the words: Forbidden Curses... Now...STOP! The Imperius Curse controls me. Its the first of the Forbidden Curses Why resist? Why even try? I just allow them to lead me on. Crucio brings pain past the limits Will it ever end? Forbidden Curses. I've stood the pain as long as I can. I cry out for the release I know will never come. What remains is the very most forbidden It is called Avada Kedavra, known as the killing curse With those words your life is gone forever All in a simple flash of green. Imperio! Crucio! Avada Kedavra! These curses are unforgivable in the wizard world. No matter who you are or where you came from Use them and you will lose your soul. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From davlr8 at earthlink.net Fri Jan 3 10:51:36 2003 From: davlr8 at earthlink.net (davrusilla ) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 10:51:36 -0000 Subject: Harry dying In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49144 Cassie said: > Well, if Harry did die I don't think Hermione/Ron would be able to bring it back. For the life of me I can't remember where the >quote is, but I'm 100% sure that somewhere in the books/a JKR interview it says that the dead cannot be brought back to life. Perhaps someone has already posted this, but I just happened to be rereading the aforementioned scene today in which Sirius, Dumbledore, and Harry discuss Priori Incantatum. The canon citation is: "No spell can reawaken the dead," said Dumbledore heavily. (GOF ch. 36, p. 697 U.S.) Davrusilla From wynnde1 at aol.com Fri Jan 3 16:24:46 2003 From: wynnde1 at aol.com (wynnde1 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 11:24:46 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry in Azkaban (was Harry's Trip/Penelope, etc) Message-ID: <1a3.e824db1.2b47134e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49145 I wrote: > > Okay, yes, *why* would Harry Potter be in Azkaban? Well, here's the scenario which popped into my mind right away - Harry is > sent to Azkaban for using an unforgivebale curse (AK) to murder Cedric > Diggory. To which Martin Miggs, the Mad Muggle responded: >If this scenario should arise, I would hope that the Wizarding >World would remember the "Prior Incatato" spell and check >Harry's wand. I suspect there would be no evidence that the >Avada Kedavra curse came from his wand. I further hope that >such evidence would be considered strong enough to protect >Harry from a miscarriage of justice. Now me again, Hmmmh. I'm not *nearly* as optimistic as you are in the Wizarding World's ability to carry out justice properly! Of course there would be no evidence that the spell came from Harry's wand, because we know the AK was cast by Peter using Voldemort's wand. And we've already seen the Priori Incantatem effect from that wand, when the "shadows" of Cedric, Frank Bryce, Bertha Jorkins, and James and Lily Potter came out of the wand. (Which makes me wonder whether or not Priori Incantatem could be used again to determine which spells had been cast with the wand - does a record of those spells still remain in the wand, or have they been permanently "erased" now that they've been Priori Incantatemed already?) HOWEVER . . . the fact that Harry's wand would show no record of having cast the AK spell does not make me feel much better about the whole thing. We've already seen at least one example of a *huge* miscarriage of justice happening, and being allowed to continue years and years after the fact. After all, not having concrete proof of criminal activity didn't prevent Sirius from spending 12 years in Azkaban. Not only was he not given a proper trial at the time, but after things had settled down no one went back to try and verify that Sirius had, indeed, done the thing he'd been accused of doing. Now, if Harry was accused of something really awful, I certainly don't think that he'd end up in Azkaban for 12 years. But not because the MoM or Wizarding legal system (whatever it entails) would protect him from wrongful imprisonment. The only thing which, IMO, would save Harry would be the fact that there are at least a few people (Dumbledore, Hermione, and Hagrid are the ones who spring immediately to mind) who would *not* believe him guilty unless there was concrete proof of his guilt. In Sirius' case, the people who might have believed in his innocence were either dead (James and Lily), evil (Peter), or decided that he was, indeed, guilty (Remus), so no one made any sort of Amnesty International action on his behalf. If Harry were sent wrongfully to prison, he *would* have people to advocate for him, although perhaps not as many as he thinks. We've already seen masses of people turn against him twice - most of the students at Hogwarts were happy to believe him the Heir of Slytherin in CoS, and most of the students, *including Ron*, and at least some of the faculty were willing to believe that he'd put his name in the goblet of fire in GoF. So, if Fudge (or someone else in the MoM) wanted to get Harry out of the way, I think it would be disturbingly easy to frame him for something he didn't do. But I also believe that Harry's name would be cleared eventually, because he does have people who believe in him enough to fight for his release. And I do want to reiterate that I *do not* believe that Harry will ever be sent to Azkaban for killing Cedric. I don't imagine that one of the three remaining books is going to be spent watching Harry suffer the effects of the Dementors while Hermione petitions for his release. I just put forth this scenario as an example of the sort of thing that might happen in the future. Although I won't be at *all* surprised if there is plenty of anti-Harry sentiment when he returns to Hogwarts for his 5th year. Dumbledore's leaving feast speech at the end of GoF notwithstanding, I suspect that most of the students at Hogwarts are going to spend their summer holiday wondering just how Cedric really did die, and that at least some of them are going to be suspicious about just how Harry managed to survive when Cedric didn't. :-) Wendy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gandharvika at hotmail.com Fri Jan 3 16:42:19 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 16:42:19 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: TBAY/SHIP: Romance on the Big Bang Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49146 >"I said," Cindy repeated to Derannimer in a deadly whisper, "what is >the overriding principal of Big Bang, Sailor?" >"If we >can't imagine a climactic Oscar-worthy scene in which a character >chooses a dramatically different path because of a Big Event, then >the theory won't fly under Big Bang," she recited in a dead, hollow >sort of voice. Shipping has a >Big problem finding a place on Big Bang. Either it is requited and >therefore Tew Eww to be Treww, or it is unrequited and therefore >doesn't Bang and might even be superfluous." "Oh," starts a voice from behind the Cindy, "but there *might* be BANG potential with a SHIP, methinks. Especially if paired with something else. I'm imagining something along the lines of a Harry/Hermione SHIP with Hermione getting killed in a rather nasty way in front of Harry. Would that count, Captain? Or am I mistaken?" -Gail B...who would dig a bloodbath much more than a romance, but feels that some sort of SHIP in future books is going to be inevitable. And who also would like to see Derannimer's Shipping Wing have something in it :)> _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jan 3 18:17:39 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 18:17:39 -0000 Subject: TBAY/SHIP: Romance on the Big Bang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49147 > >"I said," Cindy repeated to Derannimer in a deadly whisper, "what is > >the overriding principal of Big Bang, Sailor?" > > >"If we > >can't imagine a climactic Oscar-worthy scene in which a characterchooses a dramatically different path because of a Big Event, thenthe theory won't fly under Big Bang," she recited in a dead, hollowsort of voice. > Shipping has a > >Big problem finding a place on Big Bang. Either it is requited and therefore Tew Eww to be Treww, or it is unrequited and therefore doesn't Bang and might even be superfluous." > > Pippin appears suddenly next to Cindy, who starts violently in surprise. Isn't Pippin up there in the sky, blasting away at the good ship H/H? "We're having a sort of Christmas truce, I think," Pippin explains. "Besides, Jim said that Hermione is repelled by insecurity and Harry doesn't have authority problems." Cindy gapes. "Is he serious?" Pippin shrugs. "I guess. Methinks it's going to take some time to find canon to back *that* up. But concerning the Bang potential of Shipping, there's another kind of bang, you know. Allow me to demonstrate." Pippin attempts to hand Cindy a very suspicious-looking cigar, which not only smells of gunpowder but has a bright red and yellow ACME label on it. "Just a minute, there," Cindy smirks. "I wasn't born yesterday, you know. You aren't handing me any explosive smoking materials, thank you very much." "Ah, then you admit it--humor bangs." Cindy twiddles the paddle dangerously. "And your point is--" "Well, it's like the exploding cigar. Our Trio protagonists *were* born yesterday, more or less. They're very young. They're going to behave in naive ways, which will result in serious embarrassment. Things are going to blow up in their faces. Nothing too gritty, we have JKR's word for that. But don't despair. I imagine that sometime near the end of Book Seven, people will finally be induced to declare their true feelings as they're being lowered into the red-hot lava pits." "Now you're talking!" "And meanwhile, since mismatched pairings are much more fun to watch than lovers who're made for each other (at least in public) you've got to admit that Ron/Hermione and Harry/Ginny have way more comic potential than H/H do. " "But if they're mismatched, then there's no POINT" says Cindy. "They belong on the garbage scow." "Unless," says Pippin with a smile, "they have a dramatic life-changing revelation in which they realize that differences are nothing if --what did Dumbledore say? Oh yes, "if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." BANG! "Fluff!" growls Cindy in disgust. "Think that cigar's fluffy, do you?" Pippin pokes the cigar into Cindy's mouth with real Bugs Bunny style. "Captain, may I offer you a light?" Pippin From jodel at aol.com Fri Jan 3 18:33:31 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 13:33:31 EST Subject: Wizard Clothes? Message-ID: <141.6c75ca3.2b47317b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49148 Scheherazade asks: > What, exactly, constitutes the difference between wizard clothes and muggle clothes? So, are these just wizards that never manage to go anywhere outside the wizarding world? We know from PS that they're not supposed to be seen by muggles in their robes, so what do these odd fellows do?<< This is actually a fairly complex question. So this is going to ramble a bit. But it does all connect, if you stick around to the ending. Even if the summation would be less than a 10th the length. Well, let's give this a bit of historical context, okay? Wizards lived among Muggles up to the end of the 17th century, and their lives depended on blending in. So wizarding dress would have been pretty much the same as Muggles' fashions up to the end of the Stuart era. Now, from a costuming standpoint, the later Stuart era is generally regarded as the beginning of "modern" dress. At least for men, having settled into a configuration of coat, waistcoat, shirt & cravat and breeches, stockings and shoes, to which it still roughly conforms. (Trousers have replaced the breeches and the waistcoat is most typically dispensed with, but the garments perform the same function regardless of their changes in cut, fabric and level of decoration.) Now, what I suspect, is that as soon as the wizarding world developed magical terchnology which allowed it to seal itself off from Muggle society, there was a celebratory movement with an aim to "returning to the glories of ancient wizardry" in which wizards who had probably never worn robes in their life suddenly adopted them, because "our forefathers wore robes, and so will I". Upon the whole, the actual historical accuracy of these robes was probably about as convincing as David's designs for his neo-classical "National Dress" commissioned by the French Consolate after the Revolution. Or the "Cavalier" dress worn by "The Blue Boy" which is to say, not very. Consequently, I suspect that apart from the styles based on the traditional academic or legal robes still in use in those professions, or even the archaic robes worn by Peers for ceremonial Court functions, modern day wizarding "robes" are a highly imaginative ecclectic muddle, much in the manner of 19th century women's fashion with its multiple refernces to earlier eras. Rather as though the principles of what we are most familiar with as Post-Modern Architecture were applied to clothing, with a lavish hand. Mind you, I also think that the "sealing off" of the wizarding world is far from complete. (And that the greatest resistance to it was from the sort of "great houses" which owned considerable land holdings, complete with primarily Muggle retainers.) Certain exclusively wizarding districts have been secluded into little "pocket universes" which are inaccessible to Muggles. But most of the British wizarding population is more simply concealed by Muggle-repeling charms and the like. I also think that most staple goods used by the wizarding world have always been Muggle-produced. The chief industries of the wizarding world are those which produce specifically magical items, and the "service economy" which maintains the average wizard's quality of life. There has always been a cadre of wizarding merchants whose business is to "import" (and possibly duplicate) Muggle staple goods (foodstuffs, fabrics, lumber, etc.) and make them available for sale to wizards without the necessety of having to go out into the Muggle world. Consequently, some wizards have always been in the habit of "blending in". Others, have ventured into the Muggle world only rarely, and have gradually gone from appearing merely rather old-fashioned to seeming increasingly eccentric. I also believe that until the early 19th century (after the enclosure acts) Muggle-born wizards were fairly rare. But that the forcing of thousands of rural families off the land and into the towns resulted in a mixing of the (incomplete) local [wizarding] genetic strains which resulted in a sudden increase in magical births among families which had no known wizarding ancestry. These magical children were subjected to the same conditions as their Muggle counterparts, with all the same lethaly dangerous risks attendant upon the mines, mills and factories of the early Industrial age. Well, we have been told of the sort of havoc a magical child can instinctively produce when frightend or at risk. And that these "magical breakthroughs" were percieved to be a considerable threat to the continued concealment of the wizarding world in general follows without much contradiction. At length, I contend that the Department of Magical Catastrophes commissioned the charmed quill now in Professor McGonagall's keeping in an attempt to pinpoint the potential trouble spots in order to facilitate a better deployment of personnel. (I also suspect that Arthur Weasley's philosophical forebearers made a mission of infiltrating the ranks of the Muggle do-gooding societies in order to bring about legeslation that lessened the liklihood that magical children would be subjected to such conditions in the first place.) The additional layers of bureaucracy which this entailed naturally suggests that once magical children in the Muggle world have been identified it makes sense to train and educate them and to utilize their talents for the good of wizarding society. This, of course, presented a different sort of security risk. Short of actually kidnapping Muggle-borns and raising them inside the wizarding world, you cannot educate Muggle-born wizards without at least some contact with their families. Consequently, the campaign to "rescue" and educate Muggle-born magical children was shadowed by a concurrent rise in wizard/Muggle marriages and the increase in the birth of halfblooded wizards. Conservative wizarding families on the order of the Malfoys vocally deplored this trend. They were not alone. Another effect of this trend has clearly been to increase the level of magical genetic data in the Muggle population, since the non-magical siblings of Muggle-borns and halfbloods are often only very "near-misses" from being magical themselves. With a bit more mixing of the various strains, these magical genes have tended to "prove outy" even more frequently, and the incidence of Muggle-born magical children has continued to increase. It is probable that by this time nearly half of the Muggle population of the British Isles (in Rowling's world) carry at least one or two potentially magical traits. Certainly, acording to her notes, fully one quarter of an average Hogwarts year are now Muggle-born. (Taking her 1000 students statement as a base, this would come to about 36-37 Muggle-born witches and wizards in an average year.) This trend shows no signs of abating. This being the case, there is no doubt that there has been a growing awareness of Muggle social trends in dresss and thought within the wizarding world over the past 150 years or so. And in many cases this has led to either adoption, or to hybridization of Muggle and wizarding motifs in dress and wizarding society. -JOdel From dicentra at xmission.com Fri Jan 3 19:21:45 2003 From: dicentra at xmission.com (dicentra63 ) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 19:21:45 -0000 Subject: TBAY/SHIP: Comedy on the Big Bang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49149 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999 " wrote: > Pippin attempts to hand Cindy a very suspicious-looking cigar, > which not only smells of gunpowder but has a bright red and > yellow ACME label on it. > > "Just a minute, there," Cindy smirks. "I wasn't born yesterday, you > know. You aren't handing me any explosive smoking materials, > thank you very much." > > "Ah, then you admit it--humor bangs." > > Cindy twiddles the paddle dangerously. "And your point is--" > > "Well, it's like the exploding cigar. Our Trio protagonists *were* > born yesterday, more or less. They're very young. They're going > to behave in naive ways, which will result in serious > embarrassment. "Like the Yule Ball?" comes a voice out of nowhere. Pippin, Derannimer, and Gail start. Cindy grimaces and massages her forehead with one hand. "She's just learned the Sonorus Spell," she mutters. "She's been driving me crazy all morning." "Who?" "Dicentra. The GARBAGE SCOW is clear on the other side of the Bay. She can't resist the chance to show off." "I heard that." Cindy motions the other two closer. "She's also got some kind of bug planted on the Big Bang, but blamed if I can find it," whispers Cindy. The voice continues. "There have to be more incidents like the Yule Ball and Harry's articulate 'wangoballwime?' in the works. It's hillarious, but does comedy really Bang?" "Yes!" exclaims Pippin. "Only if there's a lava pit involved!" says Cindy. "Only if someone messily *dies*!" cries Gail. "Only if it involves unrequited love!" yells Derannimer, fingering her gold key. "It would have to be both funny *and* life-changing," says the voice. "So far, canon hasn't presented us with anything like that. Pettigrew's betrayal wasn't funny in the least, nor was the torture of the Longbottoms or Barty Jr's escape from Azkaban or any of the other Bangs." Cindy ponders this. "I'll be laughing pretty hard when JKR offs Hagrid," she muses. "But you know as well as I do that his death, if it occurs, will be written with tears in her eyes. No comedy. No wordplay. You'll be laughing for your own sick reasons." "Hey!" "And none of the plot twists have been effected with a light-hearted touch. They've all been sinister, frightning, malicious. Finding out that Sirius was actually innocent didn't provoke any laughter, and you might have chuckled at Voldemort's face on the back of Quirrill's head if it weren't so creepy. Nope. Humor and Bang haven't mixed yet, so I'd be surprised if it did in the future." --Dicentra, now working on Quietus From honoriagranger at yahoo.com Fri Jan 3 19:16:53 2003 From: honoriagranger at yahoo.com (Honoria Granger ) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 19:16:53 -0000 Subject: Muggle-borns Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49150 Given that as JOdel has pointed out, there is a huge security risk in the WW contacting Muggle parents of magical children (what's to stop just one freaked-out parent from blowing the whistle completely? A Memory Charm?), just how do we suppose most such parents reacted? I mean, if you got a letter saying "The Wizarding World wants your kid, send him/her off to Track 9 and 3/4", what the heck would *you* do? Before I'd let a child of mine go blithely off to some unknown school up in Scotland to be trained by a bunch of witches and wizards, I kind of think I'd want some pretty serious assurances. Especially if I didn't know anything about the WW at all. Honoria Granger, Hermione's older, smarter cousin From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Fri Jan 3 19:50:27 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius ) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 19:50:27 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?It=92s_Just_TEWW__EWWWWW_to_be_TREEW_(A_TBAY_filk)?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49151 My first filk of the new year...... It's Just TEWW EWWWWW to be TREEW To the tune of Can't Take My Eyes Off of You Hear a MIDI at http://www.angelfire.com/ma2/Gem/canttake.html Based On The TEWW EWWW Trilogy http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/hypotheticalley.html#eww Dedicated to the TBAY gang THE SCENE: The Safe House. The usual crowd is once again debating LOLLIPOPS MARINER It's just TEWW EWWWWW to be TREEW A giant cauldron of goo To portray Snape with a crush Will turn Book Five into mush Severus all romantic Will make each tummy get sick It's just TEWW EWWWWW to be TREEW LOLLIPOPS should be taboo TABOULI The LOLLIPOPS that's I've forged Is quite congruent with George It readily underlies Theories like The Prince of Lies I'd rather see Snape seduced Than slurp down more Polyjuice It won't be EWWW if it's true Just count on Jo to pull through (Suddenly a spotlight reveals what appears to be SEVERUS SNAPE himself, in black robes, with a pale lily pinned to his chest. On closer examination, it proves to be a Hypothetic Snape (transfrigured from a pincushion), who bursts into song.) HYPOTHETIC!SNAPE I need you Lily, I was a total Geek I need you Lily, I was a Dark Arts freak I want you Lily, for those green eyes I pine Oh, Lily baby I couldn't make you mine Oh, Lily baby, from DE's I resigned Now let me save you, oh Lily, let me save you, oh Lilly (Spolight out. The debate resumes) CINDYSPHINX It's just TEWW EWWWWW to be TREEW LOLLIPOPS please say adieu You made Snape Voldy's ally Till he said, "Jimmy must die!" Snape by true love is redeemed Now ain't that kind of extreme? But what is even more EWWW Is the Dark Lord smitten, too (Anther spotlight reveals LORD VOLDEMORT, also with a pale lily pinned to his chest - with what appears to be snake venom dripping from it. This VOLDEMORT proves to be another Hypothetical Construct (transfigured from a plush toy of a bunny rabbit) HYPOTHETIC!VOLDEMORT I want you, Lily, oh, you're my ing?nue Straight from the sewer because it's truly EWWW I want your baby, panic hard in dismay That Potter baby could bring me down, they say That Potter baby, let's do it Herod's way And let me love you, oh lady, and then kill your baby . (Hypothetical!VOLDEMORT and Hypothetical!SNAPE join together for the big finish.) VOLDEMORT & SNAPE We want you, Lily, please be my ing?nue Straight from the sewer because it's truly EWWW VOLDEMORT I want your baby, I count on his demise SNAPE Oh, Lily, baby, for you I'm turning spy But, Lily, baby, it's time to say goodbye VOLDEMORT & SNAPE `Cause now I've/he's killed you oh Lilly, now I've/he's killed you, oh, Lilly .. (HYPOTHETIC!VOLDEMORT prepares to kill the Hypothetic!Harry toddler. Black-out. Standing O from the TBAY crowd.) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (updated 1/1/03 with 47 new filks) From jferer at yahoo.com Fri Jan 3 20:42:53 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 20:42:53 -0000 Subject: I don't expect a complete bloodbath In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49152 Janet:? This is the Harry Potter series, not a Civil War novel with battlefields full of corpses.? Just wait. JKR herself has said there will be many more deaths going forward. One of her themes has always been that evil is *evil*, and heroes pay a price. Hogwarts may not end up like the Sunken Road, but many good people are going to die. Janet:? Personally, I expect one or two significant deaths and a much larger number of off-camera deaths (like the twelve muggles who were actually killed in Pettigrew?s fake death). I don?t think it will be Harry, Ron, or Hermione. I?d be surprised if it were Dumbledore, but if it is, I think he?ll continue on as a ghost.? I doubt we?ll lose any of the core principals in Book 5. Look for your bloodbath in Book 6, the last half of which I predict which will be the darkest hour for Hogwarts and the wizard world. I look for Dumbledore to die in Book 6 or maybe 7, and he will not come back as a ghost, IMO. Harry is going to have to face Voldemort at the end alone, without help, and Dumbledore?s death will be the passing of the torch from the greatest wizard of one generation to the greatest wizard of another. It wouldn?t be as effective if Dumbledore?s ghost was still hanging around to give advice. I realize in the four books there?s been only one death, but Cedric?s death is the first blow of the Second Voldemort War, so I don?t think we can go by the previous books. I?d say a better example would be the first War, where wizards and Muggles alike died in large numbers. Jim Ferer, wondering if Ken Burns is available to make the documentary From jferer at yahoo.com Fri Jan 3 21:04:46 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 21:04:46 -0000 Subject: Muggle-borns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49154 Honoraria:" Given that as Jodel has pointed out, there is a huge security risk in the WW contacting Muggle parents of magical children (what's to stop just one freaked-out parent from blowing the whistle completely? A Memory Charm?), just how do we suppose most such parents reacted?" I've wondered about that myself. How do you get parents to believe it? Was this the scene at the Granger household four years ? excuse me, five now ? ago? "Did you see the post, dear? Hermione?s been accepted at a school for witchcraft!" "Oh, jolly good, dear! Is she going to go live in a, what's the word, 'coven?' I supposed we'll just have to let her nip off and buy these witchcraft supplies on this list!" Yeah, right. OTOH, if you went around telling this story about your kid, how would that go over? I can just imagine the friendly conference at school, with the Family Services folks present, and we just want to help you? I postulated in a fic I wrote once that volunteer parents ? Muggles whose children were magical ? visit the new families and help them get through the shock, and convince them this is real. From wynnde1 at aol.com Fri Jan 3 21:33:15 2003 From: wynnde1 at aol.com (wynnde1 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 16:33:15 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's fate in book 5 & Amos Diggory Message-ID: <4d.29c747e7.2b475b9b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49155 Originally, I was going to respond to this off-list to Jo Serenadust, as this is mostly just a big "me too" post, agreeing with the many fantastic points she made as to whether or not Fudge could blame (or frame) Harry for Cedric's death. I had stated that I don't think this will actually happen, but some of Jo's comments have got me wondering if I might be wrong about this . . . hopefully what I've got to say is of enough substance to warrant being posted to the entire list. Jo wrote: "Things are still very unsettled, but oddly quiet at the end of GoF. Too quiet, considering the enormity of what's just happened. . I agree with Hermione here. I think that Fudge is waiting for the other shoe to drop, and laying the groundwork for his next move, depending upon what Dumbledore and co. do next." Now me: Excellent point. Earlier, I speculated that if Fudge was going to take action against Harry, he'd have done so by the end of GoF, but Jo has got me thinking that it is not too late for something like this to still happen. As I mentioned in another recent post, all the students at Hogwarts, along with anyone else who knows the truth about events at the Tournament, are going to have an entire summer to wonder about what really happened. Well, obviously, they'll all be able to wonder about things for as long as they like, but I think the summer is important because this is the time that Harry will not be an active part of the WW, as he'll be with the Dursleys. By the time everyone returns to Hogwarts, where Harry will once again be part of the community, I suspect many of them will have made up their minds about what they believe really happened. Public opinion has turned against Harry before, and I won't be at all surprised if it happens again. Plus, Harry may have another vociferous enemy now . . . Jo wrote: "I have always had the horrible feeling that Amos Diggory is going to turn on Harry with a vengance in book 5, and that this article [by Rita Skeeter, in which she described Harry as disturbed and dangerous], combined with the grief of loosing Cedric, will be the impetus behind a large part of the WW turning against Harry." Now me: Yes, yes, yes and YES! I think you are absolutely spot-on with this. In fact, I'm rather annoyed with myself that I didn't think of it. I dislike and mistrust Diggory intensely, and have often thought that he could be responsible for all sorts of blow-ups within what we think of as the "good guys." I just never came up with this as one of the possibilities. Although not mentioned as one of Dumbledore's "old crowd," I wouldn't be surprised if he turns out to have been an auror in VW1, or actively involved in some other way. And, if he was an auror or similar, I don't imagine he'd have had any qualms at all about Crouch's decision to use the unforgiveables against the Death Eaters. That sort of thing strikes me as right up Diggory's alley, actually. He's a bully, a hypocrite, dishonourable, and pompous. Not to mention that he is happy to believe and defend whatever version of the truth makes him feel best about himself. At the end of GoF, I have always been suspicious of Diggory Sr.'s calm attitude towards Harry, and I agree with you that Amos will want vengeance for his son. Meaning, he wants someone to be *punished*, whether it's the real perpetrator, or not. Harry is an easy target, especially since Voldemort's return is not yet being acknowledged. And what makes it even more interesting is that, at this point, Diggory will get nothing but sympathy from pretty much everyone in the WW - the bereaved parent demanding "justice" against the deranged young wizard who killed his son. Amos could easily claim that Harry's had it in for Cedric since the Quidditch match in PoA when Harry fell off his broom, and has harboured that resentment until finally killing Cedric when he had the chance during the Tri-Wizard Tournament. I don't like Diggory at all, actually, and (in a perverse sort of way) really hope that we'll see more of him, because I'm sure he'll cause nothing but trouble. And, in a departure from the many EverSoEvil theories which are rampant around here (and in my own mind! ), It never occurs to me for a second that Diggory could actually be Evil, in the sense of supporting Voldemort. Nope, he's one of the "good guys," even though he goes around acting like a jerk much of the time. Which makes it just that much more interesting, don't you think? :-) Wendy (Who would really like to thank Jo Serenadust for her thought-provoking post. St. Mungo's, not Azkaban . . . YES! And who is now fantasizing about writing a brilliant 9-part defamation of Diggory's character, but somehow doesn't think she could manage to do it justice as Elkins did with Crouch Sr. ) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ilana at windom.netrack.net Fri Jan 3 21:26:41 2003 From: ilana at windom.netrack.net (isiscolo ) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 21:26:41 -0000 Subject: Alley OoP! Predictions/Deaths Etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49156 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sunnylove0 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 1/2/2003 6:33:57 PM Mountain Standard Time, > DaveH47 at m... writes: > > Will Harry have ANY adult role models left?? > Maybe Sirius, but I doubt it. My prediction, not necessarily for OoP but for one of the future books, is that both Hagrid and Dumbledore will die, based on the idea that the death of Harry's adult role models will force him into greater self-reliance. I don't know if this has been discussed -- I'm extremely new here -- but I see Hagrid as Harry's surrogate mother and Dumbledore as a surrogate grandfather. Hagrid is nurturing and affectionate, to people as well as to animals; he baked Harry a birthday cake, took him to get his school things, and makes him tea when he's unhappy. Dumbledore is fair but willing to listen and bend the rules if needed, tells Harry stories with important morals, gives him gifts (in a sense -- passing the cloak along), gives him safety. My guess is that Hagrid will die in #5 and Dumbledore in #6. I'm not sure about Sirius -- I think he will live to be reunited with Harry in the end, but will be forced through circumstances to be apart from him for much of the next books. And as I said in a previous post on the S.N.O.T. thread, I think that in the final book either Harry will save Snape's life, Snape will die to save Harry's life, or (how I would write it) both will happen in that order. As far as other characters go, I haven't a clue, although I agree that the Weasleys will probably lose a few members (I particularly like the idea of Percy going to the dark side, I think that has been well set up) and I expect that Draco will survive to a climactic battle with Harry in #7. I. From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Fri Jan 3 21:56:32 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 16:56:32 EST Subject: How long has Veron Dursely known about Petunia's family? Message-ID: <15.642961f.2b476110@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49157 Does it say anywhere how far back Veron Dursely knew that their were witches/wizards on his wife's side of the family? I don't imagine that Veron knew about it before they were married, even if Petunia is strongly against wizarding kind. I don't think he would want to put himself in a position where he could be connected in any way with wizards. My theory is that Veron didn't find out about the wizards in Petunia's family until Harry arrived at their door. But what about after that? Does he go around thinking 'My wife is related to freaks. What if the neighbours ever find out? What if she has wizard blood in her too?' Thoughts? ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From theclairewytch at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jan 3 22:25:32 2003 From: theclairewytch at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?AWytch?=) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 22:25:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] How long has Veron Dursely known about Petunia's family? In-Reply-To: <15.642961f.2b476110@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030103222532.95550.qmail@web21208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49158 IAmLordCassandra at aol.com wrote: Does it say anywhere how far back Veron Dursely knew that their were witches/wizards on his wife's side of the family? I don't think he would want to put himself in a position where he could be connected in any way with wizards. Does he go around thinking 'My wife is related to freaks. What if the neighbours ever find out? What if she has wizard blood in her too?' Thoughts? ~Cassie~ Hey Cassie It doesn't really say anywhere in the books, though I don't think a man such as Dursely would have married Petunia if he had known--he is far too concerned with what the world thinks of him. He may have known, it could have been love, or it could have been there were simply no other muggles as obnoxious as they. They are like the Malfoys of the muggle world on the hate scale. Anyway, I think he would have thought exactly what you think he would have thought. (Did that make sense?) He would probably become very paranoid over the years, wandering the streets wondering if he was walking past a 'normal' person 'or a witch, or maybe a wizard, you can never tell these days...' (You will have to forgive me, I am a writer and sometimes I get lost in a character!) xx Claire --------------------------------- With Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 3 22:51:09 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak ) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 22:51:09 -0000 Subject: How long has Veron Dursely known about Petunia's family? In-Reply-To: <15.642961f.2b476110@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49159 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote: > > Does it say anywhere how far back Veron Dursely knew that their > were witches/wizards on his wife's side of the family? I don't > imagine that Veron knew about it before they were married, even if > Petunia is strongly against wizarding kind. I don't think he would > want to put himself in a position where he could be connected in > any way with wizards. > My theory is that Veron didn't find out about the wizards in > Petunia's family until Harry arrived at their door. But what > about after that? Does he go around thinking 'My wife is related > to freaks. What if the neighbours ever find out? What if she has > wizard blood in her too?' > Thoughts? > > ~Cassie~ No, Vernon definitely knows about Petunia's embarrassing relations before Harry arrives. In the first pages of PS/SS he is quoted as not wanting anyone to find out about the Potters. Plus he puts funny clothes, flying owls, shooting stars together with the mention of 'Potters' and connects it with 'their lot'. As to whether he knew about it before Petunia was married: lots of people have embarrassing relations. The fact that they both find the Potters horribly embarrassing is something they have in common. ;0) Again, in Book One, Vernon is actually worried about mentioning the Potters, because he knows how much it upsets his wife. When he thinks about being related to the Potters he is worried about people finding out that 'they', not 'his wife' are related to them. Mind boggling as it is, Vernon and Petunia are actually fond of each other. [Grin] Pip!Squeak From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Fri Jan 3 23:02:47 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 18:02:47 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Alley OoP! Predictions/Deaths Etc Message-ID: <149.6b1c08b.2b477097@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49160 In a message dated 1/3/03 4:52:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, ilana at windom.netrack.net writes: > And as I said in a previous post on the S.N.O.T. > thread, I think that in the final book either Harry will > save Snape's life, Snape will die to save Harry's life, > or (how I would write it) both will happen in that order. > *jumps up* Ah ha! See! That is just the kind of Snape I advocate (in some posts more than others). Snape *will* settle that pesky life debt if it's the last thing he does, and it most likely will. It fits in with SILK SHIRTS because he *would* be a nice guy if he saves Harry. Snape could possible earn himself a posthumous halo for that (like Cedric!). I love it! ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gandharvika at hotmail.com Fri Jan 3 23:04:56 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 23:04:56 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: TBAY/SHIP: Comedy on the Big Bang (clarification) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49161 >The voice of Dicentra speaks. "There have to be more incidents like the >Yule >Ball and Harry's articulate 'wangoballwime?' in the works. It's >hilarious, but does comedy really Bang?" > >"Yes!" exclaims Pippin. > >"Only if there's a lava pit involved!" says Cindy. > >"Only if someone messily *dies*!" cries Gail. > >"Only if it involves unrequited love!" yells Derannimer, fingering her >gold key. "Wait!" Gail says suddenly, apparently flustered, "I mean, er...heck...I think you misunderstood me." Her shoulders sag as she turns to Cindy. "I hate talking to somebody I can't see..." "I told you she planted a bug somewhere around here," Cindy said, her eyes narrowing as she glances up and down the deck of her BIG BANG destroyer. "Dicentra? Can you hear me?" Gail asked. "Of course," Dicentra's voice booms across the Bay. "Okay...well, when I spoke earlier about somebody dieing, I didn't have a comedy situation in mind...unless by definition you equate SHIPping with comedy (like, 'wangoballwime?'). But I really wasn't. What I had in mind was a more serious kind of plotline, where the couple is completely and madly in love..." "You mean you want to turn the series into some mushy romance novel?" Cindy interrupted with a look of disgust on her face. "Gosh no," Gail replied defensively, "Just enough to satisfy the SHIPpers out there. And then after you think that the two are going to live happily ever after, OUCH! One of them is killed...maybe if we're lucky, right in front of the other's eyes. A messy smear that Filch will have to clean up. "Of course, that kind of plotline is rather predictable and perhaps above our JKR, but I do believe that something like this *is* BANG-worthy, don't you think?" -Gail B...who was thinking specifically about the last big scene in Moulin Rouge, where Ewan McGregor's character Christian is holding the dieing Satine in his arms behind the curtain...gut wrenching sobs, seeing the other people's reactions, the torment, the grief ...something cool like that. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM: Try the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From honoriagranger at yahoo.com Fri Jan 3 23:20:40 2003 From: honoriagranger at yahoo.com (Honoria Granger ) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 23:20:40 -0000 Subject: Muggle-borns Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49162 < No: HPFGUIDX 49163 Hi everyone! I'm kinda new here, and I enjoy reading your opinions on the issues from the HP books. I don't know if my question have been answered from the past posts, but I hope you could help me. This is regarding Book 2 where Harry and Ron fly with the car to catch up with the Hogwarts Express "If the entrance to the magical world in the train station was only through the magic wall in platform 9 3/4, then how did Ron and Harry catch up with the Hogwarts Express by using the flying car? -max- From camdenandmo at earthlink.net Fri Jan 3 23:47:37 2003 From: camdenandmo at earthlink.net (camdenandmo ) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 23:47:37 -0000 Subject: Similarities between Arthur Weasley and Dumbledore Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49164 Hello, everyone. I am new to the group and I am doing my best to read all of the archives, but I have not completed them, so I hope this has not been discussed. I was reading a description of Arthur Weasley that featured terms such as "crackpot genius, eccentric, muggle loving, respected, etc." Almost every way to describe A. Weasley, could also describe Dumbledore. Not trying to get into a are Harry/Dumbledore/Weasley related discussion, but I just find some connections very interesting. Don't have my books handy so I can't directly quote, but there are many interesting parallels. For example, L. Malfoy's complaints about A. Weasley and Dumbledore both seem to center around the fact they are "muggle-loving." Dumbledore is described as eccentric, and his first words to students at Hogwart's (PS/SS) are an example. Weasley's obsession with Muggles is over-the-top enough to be defined as eccentric. Weasley's easy going, understand nature regarding the punishment of his children is very similar to Dumbledore's treatment of HRH's rule breaking. These are a few examples that came to the top of my head. There are a few other factors I find interesting, although I am not certain emough of Dumbledore's past, family, etc. to call them similarities, such as the success of the Weasley children (2 headboys), etc. I have don't have any real theory regarding the importance of these similarities (a muggle studies professor turned headmaster, perhaps), but I do find them interesting. Any discussion towards this would be quite interesting, I believe. Thanks for reading. I love the group by the way. Stacie From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sat Jan 4 00:03:13 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 18:03:13 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Flying cars and platform 9 3/4 References: <20030103231719.75154.qmail@web40111.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3E1624C1.99DE96@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49165 maxxx payne wrote: > > Hi everyone! I'm kinda new here, and I enjoy reading your opinions on > the issues from the HP books. I don't know if my question have been > answered from the past posts, but I hope you could help me. This is > regarding Book 2 where Harry and Ron fly with the car to catch up with > the Hogwarts Express > > "If the entrance to the magical world in the train station was only > through the magic wall in platform 9 3/4, then how did Ron and Harry > catch up with the Hogwarts Express by using the flying car? > > -max- > > Because it was a magical car? How much of where the car goes is the person driving and how much is it 'where the person wants to go'? Jazmyn From Bratschen-Spieler at carolina.rr.com Sat Jan 4 00:59:55 2003 From: Bratschen-Spieler at carolina.rr.com (blind_nil_date ) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 00:59:55 -0000 Subject: Petunia vs. Filch Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49166 Has anyone noticed the similarites between Aunt Petunia and Argus Filch? Uncanny, really. Their obsessive cleaning compulsion, Petunia dotes on Dudley, Filch dotes on Mrs. Norris, they both HATE magic and the people who use it, etc. I think that perhaps Aunt Petunia is bitter about Lilly because Petunia is a squib! Comments on this? Blind Nil Date From jferer at yahoo.com Sat Jan 4 01:25:45 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 01:25:45 -0000 Subject: Flying cars and platform 9 3/4 In-Reply-To: <3E1624C1.99DE96@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49167 Maxxx:"If the entrance to the magical world in the train station was only through the magic wall in platform 9 3/4, then how did Ron and Harry catch up with the Hogwarts Express by using the flying car?" Platform 9 3/4 isn't *the* entrance into the magical world, or at least we aren't told that. The only thing that's sure is that the wall divides the rest of the train station from Platform 9 3/4 between Platforms 9 and 10. It's not even certain if every student takes the Hogwarts Express. Do students who live in Scotland or someplace north of the school have to go to London to ride back? What if a kid was from Hogsmeade? There must be somebody. If you could find the Leaky Cauldron, for instance, and somehow notice it (people's eyes slide right over it; they don't notice) could you go in? Hermione's parents presumably did. It's all one of those big "I dunno's". From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sat Jan 4 01:14:39 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 19:14:39 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Petunia vs. Filch References: Message-ID: <3E16357F.57AA2B07@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49168 "blind_nil_date " wrote: > > Has anyone noticed the similarites between Aunt Petunia and Argus > Filch? Uncanny, really. Their obsessive cleaning compulsion, Petunia > dotes on Dudley, Filch dotes on Mrs. Norris, they both HATE magic > and the people who use it, etc. I think that perhaps Aunt Petunia > is bitter about Lilly because Petunia is a squib! > > Comments on this? > > Blind Nil Date Its pretty clear that Aunt Petunia was jealous of her sister and hates Harry because Harry is a wizard. If there were a pill to make Aunt Petunia a witch, you BET she would take it in a heartbeat no matter how much she claims to hate magic or what Vernon and Dudley thought. She hates it BECAUSE she doesn't have it. Vernon's reasons seem to stem from the fact that magic is 'unnatural' to him and upsets his ordered little life. He fears it because he doesn't understand it and hates what he fears. What Dudley really thinks about magic is not completely clear, but he has a great fear of it and may be jealous of Harry as well. If he did turn out to have any magic ability at all, there's no telling how he would take it. Jazmyn From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sat Jan 4 01:33:03 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 19:33:03 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Flying cars and platform 9 3/4 References: Message-ID: <3E1639CF.ACF8B670@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49169 "Jim Ferer " wrote: > > Maxxx:"If the entrance to the magical world in the train station was > only through the magic wall in platform 9 3/4, then how did Ron and > Harry catch up with the Hogwarts Express by using the flying car?" > > Platform 9 3/4 isn't *the* entrance into the magical world, or at > least we aren't told that. The only thing that's sure is that the > wall divides the rest of the train station from Platform 9 3/4 between > Platforms 9 and 10. > > It's not even certain if every student takes the Hogwarts Express. Do > students who live in Scotland or someplace north of the school have to > go to London to ride back? What if a kid was from Hogsmeade? There > must be somebody. > > If you could find the Leaky Cauldron, for instance, and somehow notice > it (people's eyes slide right over it; they don't notice) could you go > in? Hermione's parents presumably did. > > It's all one of those big "I dunno's". > > Hermione's parents likely had a guide from the school, like Hagrid did for Harry, taking Hermione and her parents and showing them how to get in and all the first time. I think once a muggle has been SHOWN where it is and knows it for what it is, it might negate the effects of any spells that cause them to not notice it. The 'knowledge' that it is indeed there may be too strong for the spell to work.. Jazmyn From jferer at yahoo.com Sat Jan 4 02:33:28 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 02:33:28 -0000 Subject: Similarities between Arthur Weasley and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49170 Stacie:"I was reading a description of Arthur Weasley that featured terms such as "crackpot genius, eccentric, Muggle loving, respected, etc." Almost every way to describe A. Weasley, could also describe Dumbledore." Very good comparison, Stacie. What I think you're onto are the qualities that JKR finds admirable. Clearly she values intelligence, tolerance, curiosity, and a kind (loving) nature. Hard to argue with, IMO. Eccentricity is a little harder to pin down. I read somewhere that eccentrics are some of the happiest people, because they just do what gives them joy, not defiantly, just without worrying too much what other people think. By thinking so outside the box, they are freer than most of us. That ability to go outside the box sounds a little like Harry, doesn't it? It's different with Harry, but the roots look similar. How about Hermione? I've always thought her growth through the four books is extraordinary, and one of the biggest aspects of it is - learning to think outside the box, being willing to break a rule for a reason, because something higher demands it. And we've left out another lovable eccentric, Hagrid, with his batty love of all living things likely to do serious physical harm. He's not a genius, but in every other way he, Arthur, and Dumbledore understand each other perfectly. Stacie:"There are a few other factors I find interesting, although I am not certain enough of Dumbledore's past, family, etc. to call them similarities, such as the success of the Weasley children (2 headboys), etc." Nobody knows much of Dumbledore's past, except that he isn't sure if his brother Aberforth can read, which brother has practiced controversial charms on a goat. Let's hope *that* is not a commonality. Great post. At this rate you'll be presenting papers at Nimbus! Jim Ferer, hoping he is a daddy like Arthur. From cindysphynx at comcast.net Sat Jan 4 02:45:43 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C. ) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 02:45:43 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: New URL for "Fantastic Posts" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49171 Hello, Listmembers, Just a quick note to let you know that "Fantastic Posts And Where To Find Them" has taken up fabulous new lodging! The new URL is http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq But that's not all! We are pleased to announce a revision to the Fanfiction FP, which has been spruced up and updated to include links to some of the latest and greatest fics out there. There are also updates to Hypothetic Alley for Stoned!Harry, MAGICDISHWASHER, and the Memory Charm Symposium. So stop by for our open house and take a self-guided tour. Just remember to wipe your feet, and please try not to break any of the pricey antiques along the way. Cindy, for the Moderator Team From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Jan 4 02:45:58 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 02:45:58 -0000 Subject: Muggle-borns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49172 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Honoria Granger " wrote: > < < < > Jim Ferer: > <"Did you see the post, dear? Hermione's been accepted at a school > <"Oh, jolly good, dear! Is she going to go live in a, what's the > > > Honoria again: > > I *like* this idea. Frankly, I can't imagine how it could work out > otherwise... edited.... bboy_mn postulates & pontificate (New CD-Dictionary - really handy): Hermione Granger lounges around the parlor with her parents one evening watching the telly. Suddenly there is a knock at the door. (Doorbells are too complicated for wizards) Hermione answers the door and finds a wise and wizened old man dressed in very dignified 18th century gentleman's clothes. He bows deeply. "Good evening. Might you be Mis Hermione Granger?" The gentleman ask as he doffs his top hat. "I might. Who wants to know?" Hermione replied sardonically. Handing Hermione a letter in a parchement envelope with her name calligraphically written in bold emerald green ink, the gentleman spoke in a gentle articulate manner. "Miss Granger, I am proud to inform you that you have been accepted into the Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardy." "Sorry, we gave at the office." Hermione responded, somewhat irritated, as she closed the door in the man's face. Hermione shook her head sadly. That was the third time tonight their telly watching had been interupted by a solicitor. Hermione heaved a heavy sigh and turned to go back to the parlor only to find the old gentleman standing behind her. "Are you nuts!" Hermione bellowed. "You almost gave me a heart attack." "Never fear," replied the gentleman. "I'm also a trained mediwizard. Now if you will just let me explain about our school. I'm sure you'll see that we are offering you a wonderful opportunity." "DAD!!!!" Hermione screamed. "Some nutter is in our house!" Mr. Granger hurried into the hallway. "What is the meaning of this? Get out our I'm calling the...." But he didn't get a chance to finish. "My what a lovely and /IMPERIO/ house you have here." The gentleman said as he waved a small stick through the air. "Now if you'll just watch this video tape it will explain everything. Shall we retire to the parlor?" "Yes Master, you speak and we obey." Said Mr. Granger as he showed the gentleman into the living room. "(__insert name of Hermione's Mother here__), this is our master; we must obey." "(__insert anem of Hermione's Father here__) have you been into the cooking sherry again? ...and who's the guy in the funny clothes?" Mrs. Granger asked, giving her husband a very annoyed look. "Good /IMPERIO/ evening to you madam." The gentleman said waving his wooden stick as he bowing deeply. "Could you make us a spot of tea? This video's an hour long. ...maybe some popcorn too." "Yes Master," replied Mrs. Weasley in a soft droning voice. "Would you like a spot of lemon with that?" "Yes, that would be very nice." The gentleman said with a smile as he put the tape into the VCR. Mrs. Granger returned with the tea and popcorn just as the advertising and previews of coming attactions ended. When the credits finally rolled, the wizard turn to the family and said, "Well, there you have it. /TERMINUS IMPERIO/ The finest school of witchcraft and wizardry in all of Europe. What do you think?" The gentleman smiled proudly. "Dad," Hermione whined. "I want to go to that school. Look... all the boys are cute. Let me go, or I'm going to eat sweets until my teeth rot." Hermione gave her parenst a stubborn and determined look. "Say buddy," Mr. Granger asked suspiciously. "How much does this school cost?" "That's the best part," The wizard replied. "Tuition is free. The school is supported by an endowment from the founders. All you have to pay for is books and supplies. Tuition, food, lodging, transportation are all free. Is that a deal or what?" The wizard asked proudly. "...and, don't forget Mrs. Granger, how wonderfully convinient it will be to have a magic person around the house." "Hot diggity; cheap school. Goodbye Oxford; hello Hogwarts. Where do we sign?" said Mr. Granger leaping to his feet. "Oh boy, cheap school," said Mrs. Granger gleefully. "Oh boy, cute boys," said Hermione also gleefully. "Here are your instruction," said the wizard with a smile as he put his hat on and headed toward the door. "Read them carefully and owl me if you have any questions." With smiles and waves, they bid the kindly wizard a goodnight and a safe journey. And a good time was had by all. .....or not. That's my story and I guess I'm stuck with it. bboy_mn From jferer at yahoo.com Sat Jan 4 02:48:52 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 02:48:52 -0000 Subject: Flying cars and platform 9 3/4 In-Reply-To: <3E1639CF.ACF8B670@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49173 Me:"If you could find the Leaky Cauldron, for instance, and somehow notice it (people's eyes slide right over it; they don't notice) could you go in? Hermione's parents presumably did." Jazmyn:"Hermione's parents likely had a guide from the school, like Hagrid did for Harry, taking Hermione and her parents and showing them how to get in and all the first time. I think once a muggle has been SHOWN where it is and knows it for what it is, it might negate the effects of any spells that cause them to not notice it. The 'knowledge' that it is indeed there may be too strong for the spell to work." I think you're right. I have speculated before that every new [Muggle-born] student has a guide, perhaps an older, also Muggle-born, student for most kids, who shows them around. The Muggle parents can help the new parents deal with the shock of their sense of reality being torn off its pins. It's like some optical illusions: once you've been shown the trick, you see it every time. These are likely to be subtle, 'weak,' spells, that any magical person would see right through. Jim Ferer, who doesn't need any help not to notice stuff From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Jan 4 02:52:27 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 02:52:27 -0000 Subject: Flying cars and platform 9 3/4 In-Reply-To: <20030103231719.75154.qmail@web40111.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49174 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, maxxx payne wrote: > ,,,edited,,, > > "If the entrance to the magical world in the train station was only through the magic wall in platform 9 3/4, then how did Ron and Harry catch up with the Hogwarts Express by using the flying car? > > > -max- bboy_mn: I think the answer is that they can see it because they are magical people and it is a magical train. It's the same as with the Leaky Caulron. There it is, right there between the bookstore and record shops on Charing Cross Road, just a block or two north of Chinatown, but the poor muggles are too caught up in there mundane existance to notice it. The train is also magical in the same sense as the Knight Bus. It doesn't run into and isn't seen by other trains, the same way that the Knight Bus doesn't run into houses or cars, and is not seen. IT'S MAGIC. bboy_mn From siskiou at earthlink.net Sat Jan 4 04:05:52 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 20:05:52 -0800 Subject: Running Weasel myth? was Re: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: New URL for "Fantastic Posts" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <75107297630.20030103200552@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 49175 Hi, Friday, January 03, 2003, 6:45:43 PM, Cindy wrote: > Just a quick note to let you know that "Fantastic Posts And Where To > Find Them" has taken up fabulous new lodging! I was browsing through the posts and came across the one taking about Ron and the Running weasel myth, something about a yellow rat killing him. I've seen this mentioned before and have searched high and low for any reference that it exists, but have come up with only posts about it in HP forums. None of the post contained any links to the actual story and I'm starting to wonder if it's just a manufactured rumor . Does anyone have any info about this myth? -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From jodel at aol.com Sat Jan 4 05:03:38 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 00:03:38 EST Subject: Muggle-borns Message-ID: <136.18e78d89.2b47c52a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49176 Honoria Granger asks: << Given that as JOdel has pointed out, there is a huge security risk in the WW contacting Muggle parents of magical children (what's to stop just one freaked-out parent from blowing the whistle completely? A Memory Charm?), just how do we suppose most such parents reacted? >> One of the beauties of the WW's seclusion has been the benefits it has had upon Muggle development of technology and evolution of thought. A beauty which the MoM has been at considerable pains to cultivate insofar as it has worked to thei benefit of the WW. In the first place, as I've stated before, about ten minutes after the WW slammed the door, Muggles were making accurate scientific observations of the operation of the natural world. No tampering on the part of some loopy wizard who wanted rainbows for his daughter's wedding regardless of whether the sun was shining from the correct direction to produce rainbows or not. No contamination of experiments by some magical who doesn't bloody care whether this is the way the work works naturally or not, so long as it does what *he* wants it to do. After about a generation of watching the world behave as it was designed to, educated Muggles started rethinking rather a lot of the superstitions of their youth and we got the beginnings of the Age of Reason (which could hardly have gotten off the ground so long as wizards were out and about and meddling with everything in range). Yes there were still witch burnings throughout the 18th century, but fewer as time went on, and many of the victims of these latter-day pogroms were, in fact, deluded souls who really did think they had made a pact with the devil. As time went on, more and more of the educated classes began to adopt the firm stance that magic did not exist, that superstition was a failing of the ignorant and the credulous and that the world behaved as the world behaved, with no exceptions. A great deal of what we rthink of as "modern thought" got its inception during this period. >From the Ministry of Magic's point of view, this development could hardly be improved upon. If the Muggles were firmly convinced that magic is not real, they will not be looking for magic. If they are convinced that "science" has an explanation for all mysteries, then anything that seems odd must somewhere have a "scientific explanation". Once they twigged to the direction that Muggle thought was taking (and they would have realized this fairly promptly, if my postulation of a wizardly "import" business is on target) they started doing all that they could to encourage this direction of inquery. Here and there an observation of Muggle science has probably even crept into wizardly experiment and has been incorporated into magical technology. If this is the course that Muggle beliefs have taken, then the discovery of magical ability in one of their children will be far less likely to "freak them out". Particularly if one is careful with one's euphamisims. I firmly believe that in the case of a true Muggle-born, a Ministry representitive v isits the family around the child's 11th birthday who gives them a soothing and encouraging talk about their child's "rare talent" and lets them know that a place for him has been reserved at an exclusive boarding school in Scotland where he may learn valuable training for the proper use and control of it. In most cases the family is flattered and intrigued, if bemused. Typically, the only people who freak out are the bonafide religious nuts, and those are delt with by a quick "obliviate'; and a notice is forwarded to the Magical Reversal department to monitor the site. It is possible that upon attaining majority, the child of such a family will be aproached again and informed of the a QwickSpell correspondence courses. The Ministry rep also makes an appointment with the familey to escort them to Diagon Alley to buy the child a wand, and their first set of school supplies and teaches the child how to get into the wizarding world for future trips. Which all, if correct, offers the possibility of a very oblique clue that I've not seen anyone bring up, so far. Petunia Dursley is a Muggle, but she didn't have a normal Muggle upbringing. She was brought up in a houshold that included a witch. The same can be said for her son, who is being raised with a wizard. And both of them loathe and fear magic. Does it occur to anyone that the elder Thomas Riddle's conduct in walking out on his pregnant young wife (assuming that they were, in fact, married) upon learning that she was a witch is not what one could call exactly *normal*? I mean, think about it. Doesn't it seem a lot more likely that the expected response to such an announcement would be more on the order of;"You're joking." Or even, "Your're crazy." or, even, given the time period; "You mean Alastair Crowley and that lot? Give me a break!" But to walk out and disown the child? Isn't this a little , um, *extreme*? Have we met *anyone *else in the entire series who you could imagine being capable of that kind of behavior? Does the name 'Dudley Dursley" pop immediately to mind? Was one of the elder Tom Riddle's parents raised with a witch (or wizard)? What was his mother's maiden name? Did *all* of Tom Marvlo Riddle's magic really come from his mother? But then, i'm not convinced that the name of "Riddle" was exactly chosen at random, either... -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Sat Jan 4 05:03:41 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 00:03:41 EST Subject: Similarities between Arthur Weasley and Dumbledore Message-ID: <69.32c907d8.2b47c52d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49177 Stacie comments; >>I was reading a description of Arthur Weasley that featured terms such as "crackpot genius, eccentric, muggle loving, respected, etc." Almost every way to describe A. Weasley, could also describe Dumbledore.<< There are physical resemblances as well. I have been thumping this particular drum on other lists for the past couple of years. Nor would I be at all astonished if Rowling did pull a relationship beteween Albus and Arthur out of her hat in any of the remaining three books. At a guess I would say that either a. Arthur's great-great grandfather was Aberforth Dumbledore, or, more likely, b. The Dumbledore brothers' mother was a Weasley, or even, c. there was a Dumbledore sister who married a Weasley. In any event the connection if any is several generations back and Arthur, deep-dyed believer in meritocracy that he is, doesn't mention the matter. Even his kids aren't aware of it. But I won't hold my breath waiting for it, because I cannot see that it changes anything to do with the liklihood that in the end everything's all going to come down to Harry vs. Voldemort. -JOdel From annemehr at yahoo.com Sat Jan 4 05:56:04 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr ) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 05:56:04 -0000 Subject: TBAY: MD and theories/A new room In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49178 Annemehr sighed happily as she looked around her new room. Oooooh, this is going to be *so* much fun! She finished putting her clothes away, and then pulled out one of her favorite posters - it was Arthur Weasley, on a late-night raid. In one hand, he held a biting teacup which was securely covered by a tiny muzzle. In the other hand, he held a piece of parchment, on which was clearly visible a list of names followed by items of a dark nature such as one might find down Knockturn Alley, and not many of them of Muggle origin, either. Now, what would he be doing with *that*, hmmm? Not that there was much canon for this poster yet. Still, the poster did seem to suit the room beautifully Annemehr turned back to the chalkboard that Melody had pulled out of a drawer (making a mental note to check the other drawers for interesting Safe House items). Definitely some things to think about, but it was getting very late. After getting her PJ's on, she took it into bed to mull over, but fell asleep almost immediately. _________________________________________________________________ Annemehr woke to find the sunlight streaming across her face - lovely! East windows! She wondered as she went downstairs, what to have for breakfast. Tea and biscuits? Or coffee and donuts? She settled on coffee and biscuits, and entered the kitchen to find Pip and Squeeky already there. "Good morning, you two," she said to them, but her eyes were glued to the dishwasher, already purring efficiently although there can't have been many dirty dishes yet, so early in the day. "Is this thing ever off?" she wondered, half to herself. "Nope," said Pip, who watched in amusement as Annemehr looked through six or seven cupboards trying to find the coffee cups which were hanging neatly on their holder right next to the coffee-maker. "So, tell me - why Snape, eh?" "What?" said Annemehr, looking startled. "You know. Eloise's question yesterday. "PoA p. 154 Ch. 10 UK hardback. Pettigrew is mentioned, and what's said about him? 'Pettigrew. That fat little boy who was always tagging around after them [James and Lupin] at Hogwarts?' It's not even one of the teachers who says this; it's Madame Rosmerta, who only ever saw the Hogwarts kids at weekends. *Any* student,teacher, or someone vaguely connected with Hogwarts could have told Voldemort that Pettigrew liked to hang around with the big boys." "Well, sure," said Annemehr, catching on. "But Snape was a DE, and he lived seven years at Hogwarts with them while they were all students. He would have had some insight into their group dynamics, twisted by bitterness though it might have been. Couldn't you just see Voldemort, discussing his intention of killing the Potters with a selection of his DE's, Snape among them? And Snape says, 'Master, I know of a weakness we could exploit. One of their friends, Peter Pettigrew, was always hanging around them because he thought they were so clever. He always liked to be around wizards who were more powerful than he was. Well, Master, you are *much* more powerful ' Well, you can imagine how that might go." "Makes sense," said Pip, moving away from in front of the doughnuts as Melody came in, looking hungry. "But there were other DE's who were at Hogwarts when Snape was. Sirius mentions a whole gang of Slytherins Snape ran with, who nearly all turned out to be DE's. Any of them might just as well have done it." "Oh, is this about the Evil Snape theory?" says Melody. "Didn't Annemehr say she came up with this as one possible interpretation of the SS scene? She doesn't mean this theory is proven, it's only one of three ways she found to look at things. And it would be logical that DE!Snape might have put Voldemort onto Pettigrew." She smiled at Annemehr encouragingly. There seemed to be a lot of encouraging smiles around here lately Annemehr continues: Not long after this, Snape left to spy for Dumbledore. As Snape obviously never told Dumbledore that Pettigrew was now working for Voldemort, this has to be an Evil Double-Agent Snape Theory. "Well," said Pip thoughtfully. "It's consistent with canon if you can explain why EvilDoubleAgent!Snape mutters a countercurse to save Harry in PS/SS, directly against Quirrelmort's curse." Annemehr considers the point. "What if Voldemort hadn't revealed himself to Snape in PS/SS? He may not have felt quite sure of Snape anymore at this point since Snape had spent the last ten years with Dumbledore. And Snape isn't ready to leave his nice, secure place with Dumbledore because he's still "in situ." If Voldemort is ever defeated or never returns, Snape at least has some kind of place in the world. And if Voldemort ever does return, then Snape remains in a *very* valuable position. Either way, he can't afford to take any risks with it." said Annemehr. "But," puts in Melody, "If Snape is evil, why didn't he go for the philosopher's stone himself instead of defending it for Dumbledore?" "Ah," said Pip, "what if he did try to get it, and he just never figured out how to get it out of the mirror? > "But there's the problem of the Shrieking Shack as well. Why is Snape so keen to save Harry, in the face of Voldemort' obvious desire (in PS/SS and as Tom Riddle in CoS) to kill the little brat? In fact, why doesn't EvilDoubleAgent!Snape just kill the lot of them? He's going into a situation where there's a known escaped murderer and a werewolf who hasn't taken his potion. It's the perfect explanation for as many dead bodies as he likes and a quick memory charm on anyone he actually doesn't want to kill." "Ummmm," said Annemehr. "Because he wants Harry to have a life-debt to a Death Eater?" Howls of outrage assail her ears as she ducks a soapy frying pan which is swung in her general direction, in jest and at a safe distance from her head. She pauses to wonder why it is not in the dishwasher Annemehr gets serious again: "Actually, Snape only followed Lupin to the SS without yet knowing what he was up to. In the invisibility cloak, he sizes up the situation, and sees that Pettigrew is about to be revealed. He has to derail this and decides to take Sirius and Lupin to Dumbledore and accuse them, thereby getting them out of his way - who would believe them? And now Lupin will show himself to be on the 'murderer' Sirius' side! Snape stops discussion about rats because he is doing his best to protect Pettigrew from discovery in order to protect his own skin. He knows if Pettigrew is captured, he will sing like a canary." > "Plus," says the Pipsqueak, "my problem with Dumbledore *not* knowing about Pettigrew is that in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39662 I argue that Dumbledore, as well as Snape, is directing the discussion in the Hospital away from rats [PoA p.286 Ch.21 UK hardback]. Dumbledore does it twice, in fact, in less than half a page of text. He interrupts Snape, and he gets Fudge, Snape and Poppy Pomfrey out of the room when Snape's reduced to screaming at Hermione to shut her up. [for full argument see #39662, link above]." Annemehr gulps, but continues gamely on: "I think that could be accounted for by a general desire to shut everyone up and get them out of there so he can send Harry and Hermione on their mission to rescue Sirius. After all, they are quite short on time. I looked at the quotes again: 'I suppose he's told you the same fairy tale he's planted in Potter's mind?' spat Snape. 'Something about a rat, and Pettigrew being alive -' 'That, indeed, is Black's story,' said Dumbledore, surveying Snape closely through his half-moon spectacles. "Yes, Dumbledore cuts him off, he's cutting everybody off, but that may just be because time is pressing. Incidentally, this would also be my interpretation in the straight reading (non-MD with Snape on Dumbledore's side). And," continues Annemehr, "Dumbledore is surveying Snape closely because (in non-MD theories) he's just found out that Snape, too, has already heard this version of events and is still doing all he can to get Sirius's soul sucked out by dementors, still without a trial! And after Snape finally leaves, and Harry and Hermione launch into a flood of explanations which, it is true, contain a reference to a rat, he cuts them off to explain to them that there is nothing he can do - they need more *time*." Pipsqueak begins to look as if she's wondering how they got a new resident in the Safe House who, on her first morning there, is actually arguing *against* the MAGIC DISHWASHER. Well, not against it exactly, but juggling it with two other incompatible theories. Oh, well, at least she's arguing canon points Melody leans comfortably against the dishwasher and asks, "Well, now, how about Professor Lupin? Are you comfortable with his role in the MD theory?" Annemehr supresses a shudder. "Um, canon-wise, yes. My heart's desire is that Lupin is good and that Dumbledore trusts him. The 'Lupin is Ever So Evil' theory that Pip put me on to is SO horrible and SO logical " She runs a hand through her hair. "Just how dark is all this going to get, anyway? But I can take the 'Dumbledore doesn't know if he can trust Lupin either' version much more easily - that MD!Dumbledore wants to have all three surviving Marauders under his eye at once, because he can't be sure of any of them. As long as we can believe Lupin has Dumbledore's full trust by the end of GoF when he sends Sirius to lie low at his place after alerting the 'old crowd.' > Pip grins. "Well, as I said when I opened this place up, back in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/40421 The Safe House is open to all spying and/or conspiracy theorists, whether or not they decide to wash their own dishes. I think anyone with a theory that Lucius Malfoy has secretly taken over St. Mungo's and is using it to hold inconvenient witnesses incommunicado is pretty far along the 'secret conspiracy of DE's to take over the WW' route. Would you like to be the madwoman in the attic? " Annemehr laughed. "You know, I think I like the room that Melody offered me much better - I think I will just stay there!" "Oh, good, I hoped you would like it," said Melody. "Feel free to change it around or whatever to suit yourself! And, maybe you would like to join our cheerleading squad, if you haven't settled on MAGIC DISHWASHER as your only theory yet." "Thanks," replied Annemehr. She glanced at herself in the hall mirror. "Uh, I don't think I would look right in the little skirt, but maybe I could just hold a megaphone or something?" Melody suppressed a giggle and changed the subject. "How are you coming on with your Longbottom conspiracy theory?" "Well, not much farther yet. I figure Frank was tortured for information, and when that was seen not to be working, the DE's tortured his wife in front of him to make him talk. I don't think she really would have known anything, though the DE's may have thought there was a chance she did, and wouldn't leave any stone unturned. In fact, we don't even know whether Frank knew where Voldemort was hiding - the whole thing might have been for nothing! Why they need to be silenced and yet still kept alive, I still have very little idea I guess it's just one of those situations where you know something smells fishy, but you don't know what yet. "But I've just decided something about my Shrieking Shack theories. I resolve to pick one, before Hurricane Jo arrives at the bay! I figure I've got some time, as it hasn't even reached Publisher's Island yet. Anyone heard a weather forcast lately?" Annemehr Who very definitely believes in Spymaster!Dumbledore, just not sure that the Shrieking Shack episode was orchestrated by him From annemehr at yahoo.com Sat Jan 4 06:55:28 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr ) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 06:55:28 -0000 Subject: Muggle-borns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49179 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve " wrote: > bboy_mn postulates & pontificate (New CD-Dictionary - really handy): > > "My what a lovely and /IMPERIO/ house you have here." The gentleman > said as he waved a small stick through the air. "Now if you'll just > watch this video tape it will explain everything. Shall we retire to > the parlor?" > bboy!!!!! I'm *suprised* at you! The use of Unforgivable Curses is strictly forbidden, even when it seems perfectly harmless and useful! Fifty points from... umm... what house would that be then? The use of a video tape is a clever touch, though. Obviously, it is muggle-borns or half-bloods who specialize in this sort of work, in order to be able to speak to the muggles in their own terms. But, they are just going to have to use their patience and power of persuasion. *Not* unforgivable curses. Alright? Annemehr who got the humor but still thinks bboy_mn had better unstick himself from this particular story! ;) From Bratschen-Spieler at carolina.rr.com Sat Jan 4 03:43:07 2003 From: Bratschen-Spieler at carolina.rr.com (blind_nil_date ) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 03:43:07 -0000 Subject: Petunia vs. Filch In-Reply-To: <3E16357F.57AA2B07@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49180 > Its pretty clear that Aunt Petunia was jealous of her sister and hates > Harry because Harry is a wizard. If there were a pill to make Aunt > Petunia a witch, you BET she would take it in a heartbeat no matter how > much she claims to hate magic or what Vernon and Dudley thought. She > hates it BECAUSE she doesn't have it. Vernon's reasons seem to stem > from the fact that magic is 'unnatural' to him and upsets his ordered > little life. He fears it because he doesn't understand it and hates > what he fears. What Dudley really thinks about magic is not completely > clear, but he has a great fear of it and may be jealous of Harry as > well. If he did turn out to have any magic ability at all, there's no > telling how he would take it. > > Jazmyn Moreover, Rowling seems to put the notion of purity of blood as a secondary or tertiary theme in her book. In factors in many ways. I'm hoping and guessing that with each progression of books we find more about Harry's family and, thus, Petunia. I believe the websites are claiming that Rowling is going to bring out some stuff on the Dursley's that the reader's will not expect. Maybe our hunches are right! Blind_Nil_Date From hobaggins at hotmail.com Sat Jan 4 03:53:36 2003 From: hobaggins at hotmail.com (ahlease ohbuhryein) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 03:53:36 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Muggle-borns Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49181 Alright. This is my first post. *nervousness* I would like to point out that these kids *have* wizard powers, -there are several different characters that talk about their pre-Hogwarts experience with magic. namely making things blow up without meaning to, making glass disappear... strange things happening when ever they got highly emotional. these kids have power. This is how hogwarts found them. Their parents probably relieved to have their kids issues explained. And if not- a proper memory charm and some wards on the kids would clear the issue up just as well. Or I could be wrong, if so feel free to persecute. "ahlease ohbuhryein" ________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From catlady at wicca.net Sat Jan 4 09:23:51 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) ) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 09:23:51 -0000 Subject: CHOP/Snape'sBadAttitude/DumbledoreHouseElfSpies/"passive"hero/empathy/Amos Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49182 In her wonderful follow-up on the Crouchii, Elkins mentioned: << Although I'm also hoping that the rather gruesome twist you suggest here (Severus proving his loyalty to Voldemort by handing over Dumbledore alive to suffer unspeakable torments) is not, because even I am not quite twisted enough to have any stomach for the thought. >> Severus proving his loyalty to Voldemort by *inflicting* unspeakable torments on Dumbledore while Voldemort watches, before AK'ing him at Voldemort's command. This is all too horrible for Severus, who loves Dumbledore (as a father-figure), and I am not confident that he will be able to carry it off, showing only ruthless efficiency (I don't think Voldie *requires* sadistic enjoyment) and no squeamishness, let alone weepiness. But if he *doesn't* carry it off, then Voldie kills him instead of accepting him back, and then Dumbledore's sacrifice was wasted (and then Snape dies hating himself). I dread this scenario for Severus's sake, not so much for Dumbledore's. Okay, Dumbledore is only an enlightened man or a saint, not a Buddha or an angel. Not being an angel or a Buddha, under Cruciatis he will be in unimaginable agony and cry and scream and soil himself and *wish* to hurry up and die. But being an enlightened being or a saint, he will accept that this is his plan working out, and not direct rage or hate at anyone. What would it take to persuade Harry to trust Snape and use the fruits of Snape's spying on Voldemort after Snape had gained Voldemort's trust like *that*? But this scenario raises an issue that I can't figure out: wimpy/tough good/evil. If the good guy is unwilling to torture (a volunteer martyr) (for the sake of the plan to defeat the bad guy), is that wimpiness or goodness? Melody wrote: << "I think it is the decapitated part. I keep envisioning all those Brits on Tower Bridge with their head on a spike. That is just too disrespectful for Dumbledore's head." >> In CHOP, Dumbledore's "head on a platter" probably isn't literal (see above). It's a not-new metaphor for killing him to please his enemy. Probably the metaphor comes from Salome and John the Baptist, altho' I have never understood what Salome thought she was doing. Oryomai defined SILKSHIRTS: << Snape would be a really likeable guy if it wasn't for his mishaps in school. If you remember that he had all that stuff happen to him and realize that *that* is what's making him do the things he does >> and Shrhzd replied: << I think that he had a background that could have lead him to either becoming a bright young man who studies the dark arts, like Lupin apparently does, or a spiteful man who turns to them. >> and Eloise mentioned: << Where I believe there *is* a similarity is in their relationships with their fathers. I believe they both have/had rather cold relationships, ones where they never quite lived up to expectation. I believe this from what we see of Draco's relationship with Lucius and from Snape's current behaviour. I am one of those who believes that Snape looks towards Dumbledore as a father-figure. >> I *like* Snape, altho' I suppose that if we met in person, he would view me with much the same level of scorn as he views Neville, and verbally flay me enough for me to hate him forever -- my liking is based on *me* not being his target. I am sure that when he arrived at Hogwarts he already had his vicious tongue and bad attitude. I think that even when he started wizarding *primary* school, he already had a certain arrogance, vengefulness... I think it came from his relationship with his parents, altho' worsened by primary and secondary school experiences. I think Severus's father was much worse to Severus than Lucius is to Draco, or else Draco is somewhat protected from Lucius by his mother's or nanny's love. Sharana wrote: << It seems that Dumbledore is well informed about most of what happens inside Hogwarts. It is highly possible that all (or most) of the portrait characters (Fat Lady, Sir Cadogan, Violet, etc) act as spies for him. Remember there are pictures hanging all over the castle and that these characters can move freely between them. Consider the house-elves, they are all over the castle cleaning, cooking, and whatever else. You usually don't notice them, but they pick up a lot of information: >> I believe that, except then how did he miss knowing about James, Sirius, and Peter becoming Animagi? They COULD have kept it secret from the House Elves, but only by conscious effort, which they would have done only if they had suspected that the House Elves were spies. Penny Linsenmayer wrote: << "Crowning the King: Harry Potter and the Construction of Authority" by Farah Mendlesohn - She paints Harry as a passive hero who is successful largely due to "inherited" talents and assistance from others, a "gentleman scholar" (a star on the playing field and passably bright). >> That sounds remarkably like that guy in slate or salon who wrote the article that claimed that Harry is popular only because he's a successful athlete, and that he is neither as smart nor as brave as Ron, let alone Hermione. Anne U wrote: << one of the crucial differences between Harry and Voldemort: empathy. Both Harry and Voldemort had lousy childhoods, but Harry is able to empathize with others, while Voldemort does not. Was Harry's childhood less lousy than Tom Riddle's? Hard to say whether it's worse to grow up in a Muggle orphanage than to spend almost every waking minute being tormented emotionally by the Dursleys. >> I'm pretty sure that Harry had it worse. The Dursleys didn't *just* emotionally torment him: they skimped on his food and clothing, he couldn't have had much of a bed in his cupboard, if the parents didn't physically chastise him, Dudley did -- whatever horrors early twentieth century orphanages are blamed for, the Dursleys tried to provide the same. The only way Harry had it better was that antibiotics had been invented by then, and central heating. In other ways, TMR would have had it better because of his ability to get people to like him. However, I don't think it's fair to blame Tom Riddle just because [his depiction in CoS has convinced me that] he was born with brain defects making him incapable of feeling empathy and with a tendency toward paranoia, so that he would have been cold and selfish even if he had been raised in the most loving family around. I really think it spoils JKR's theme of choices and free will to set up a villain who didn't have a choice about his brain defect. Wendy Wynnde wrote: << Diggory's alley, actually. He's a bully, a hypocrite, dishonourable, and pompous. >> Amos Diggory is *definitely* vulgar, but what evidence is there of him being *any* of those other things? His rough way of questioning Winky when she was found with Harry's wand near the Dark Mark is often cited as an example of him being a bully, but I have always read that interrogation as Amos and Arthur using the well-known "bad cop, good cop" technique. That they fell so easily, as if by habit, into their roles, gives me the idea that they had previously worked together in some investigatory or law-enforcement job. Someone suggested that they might have been Aurors during the Bad Years; then there was a Reduction in Force after Voldemort went away, but the public didn't feel right just firing their so-recent heroes, so old Aurors like Moody could be honorably retired, but young ones had to be transferred to other Ministry jobs. From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Sat Jan 4 09:37:39 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana ) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 09:37:39 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49183 Thanks for all the interesting responses! It's been fascinating reading different perspectives on Snape attitude to Harry. Even if we don't agree, the responses are so well thought out and presented, it has definitely added some thoughts to my pensieve. :) I've got some additional statements to explain some misconceptions about my original post on S.N.O.T. First off, I do not hate Snape. I am intrigued by the character as much as the next person. I, too, wonder what caused him to give up his support of Voldemort and gain Dumbledore's trust. Snape, like every character in the book is an integral part of Harry's experience at Hogwarts, `warts' and all, to use a pun. Thankfully, no one has flamed me off list for my post about Snape, but I do believe that Snape is NOT a nice person. Whatever he might do in future books to help/hinder/annoy/etc. Harry and his friends, it does not mean he will suddenly be Mr. Nice-Guy. Second, I do not believe that Lily and James Potter were saints. Sirius and Lupin have both told Harry some traits that they and his father shared that, in hindsight, they aren't so proud of ? creating the Maurader's Map for one example. From what canon we do have on James, we do know he relished being a sort of scoundrel [Han Solo, anyone? :D], like Fred and George, but without, apparently, getting caught. He knowingly abetted and even accompanied a werewolf to run loose in Hogsmeade while still a student in school. Even Lupin and Sirius look back on that and can't believe how dangerous and stupid they were for doing that. James even kept his animagus form secret from Dumbledore after graduating ? a wizard he remained close to even after leaving Hogwarts. Lily is more sketchy as we've not received much info regarding her character when she was at Hogwarts or afterwards, but I seriously doubt she was a saint. I wrote: Snape was jealous of James' popularity, skill at Quidditch and his small group of close-knit friends, all of which Harry now has at Hogwart?s. Even twelve years after James' death, Snape says, sneeringly, "...a little talent on the Quidditch field..." with great derision while interrogating Harry after Harry's head was seen by Malfoy in Hogsmeade [PoA]. He even attributes "strutting" to James, and to Harry, though nothing in canon suggests that James actually strutted around the school." Jim Ferer wrote: See? Any sign of popularity, success, or confidence is hateful to Snape. Confidence, self-worth, comfort in one's skin is bound to look like "strutting" to someone like Snape. My response: Since we're never shown in the books Snape's treatment of other popular students in his classes besides Harry specifically, I have no canon to support my belief that Snape doesn't treat other popular students like he treats Harry. Granted Harry is mind-bogglingly famous, but still Snape does love to rub Harry's fame in his face. Oryomai wrote: Can anyone honestly say that they never hated the people who had everything? (If you think you can, then you were one of the people with everything *grin*) I know I can't. You twist reality in your mind so that these people are keeping you down, and you deserve the glory. I respond: I can honestly say that I didn't hate those popular kids in school. I wasn't part of the popular crowd, either. I graduated from high school 19 years ago this year and I can't even remember most of those popular kids names, let alone fathom keeping alive a deep- seated hatred of any of them just because they were popular and I wasn't so many years ago. I would guess that most people thinking back on school are the same way as me am I right? I had written: "Snape can??t understand this and sees Harry??s rule-breaking as Harry proclaiming how special and famous he is ?Vso special and famous he won??t be punished for breaking rules." Oryomai responded: I agree with Snape there. I personally cannot stand people who break the rules and get ahead, while those of us who follow get nowhere. No one is above the rules. Period. Now, I disagree with you on the "can vs. must". Harry doesn't *have* to do anything, he chooses to. Hence, can wins to me. Acire responded: It is proclaiming how special Harry is, if we go with your theory. If Harry is allowed to break rules because it's his natural tendency, I would hate him too. IIRC (I know I'm using that phrase a lot), most of the times harry gets punished by Snape (with the exception of the escape of Sirius), it's because he is breaking a rule for no reason, such as the flying car incident, sneaking into Hogsmeade, or wandering around Hogwarts at night. He's not supposed to do any of this things, and he has *no reason* to do them. Even DD threatened to expel Harry after the car, and Harry was just lucky Lupin saved the day after the Hogsmeade incident. Snape thinks that Harry's head is so big that he believes rules are above him, as he states in PoA, after Malfoy catches him in Hogsmeade. Harry is breaking the rules knowingly, not because he thinks he's special, but because he is being selfish, as in Hogsmead, or not thinking, as in the flying car. I respond: Here is where we disagree completely. Harry *must* break the rules in the climaxes of the books ? his character won't allow any other possibility. Harry could not live with himself if he didn't pursue what was right, even at the cost of his life. He is afraid when he goes through the obstacles and while facing Quirrell in the search for the Sorcerer's Stone. He is afraid when he goes into the Chamber of Secrets to try to save Ginny's life, even though he doesn't "see how Ginny could possibly be still alive" at that point in the story. When he confronts Sirius and then Lupin in the Shrieking Shack, he didn't end up there because he was looking for Sirius, he ended up there because he thought Ron was going to get eaten by a giant dog if he and Hermione didn't save him! He spent the entire fourth book afraid of being attacked, killed, embarrassed in front the whole school, failing to measure up to other's expectations, you name it! When Harry does flout the rules, such as going into Hogsmeade without permission, for example, he is being strong-willed, stubborn and, quite frankly, naughty. Look at Draco by comparison, he was up late wandering around the school in PS/SS and called attention to that fact from McGonagall just so he could get H/H/R in trouble. Sure, Harry visits Hagrid at odd times, many times without permission, but he's doing it because he loves Hagrid and needs his advice and support and/or is trying to provide emotional support for Hagrid when Hagrid when he needs it. Because the books are written entirely from Harry's point of view, us readers get to see what motivates Harry to do the things he does. Harry doesn't get punished for doing those things because, let's be frank, he's either just saved someone's life, saved the school or been falsely accused. When Harry has been caught for minor rule breaking ? he does get punished, McGonagall gives him detention & takes points from Gryffindor and Flitwick gave him extra Charms homework in GoF. As for the flying car incident, Ron, as a lifetime member of the wizarding community, really should have known better on that one, but, in their defense, they are both only 12 year old boys. What boy wouldn't want to take a flying car to school? :D of flying a car to Hogwarts. Harry does get special treatment from Dumbledore and McGonagall, but that is because they have their own reasons for doing so. McGonagall is head of Gryffindor house and, when mightily pushed to the edge, will take lots of points from H/H/R, but, obviously, won't punish him by removing him from the Quidditch team ? she wants Gryffindor house to win the house cup too much! Dumbledore obviously knows something about Harry that we've not been let in on, whether it's some prophecy about his defeat of Voldemort or ? Dumbledore has his reasons and bends rules accordingly. Fudge saying that " well, we all have a soft spot where Harry is concerned..." is accurate in the wizarding world, but not for the teachers at Hogwarts, IMO. Harry does not regard this special treatment by the wizarding world as a "good thing". His reaction to being a celebrity is to run from it ? as fast a possible. Snape may think Harry has a big head swelled by his fame, but he doesn't. Harry doesn't act like a *famous* person [Gilderoy Lockhart, anyone?]. He has only two close friends with which he shares everything at school, but that's it. He is kind of emotionally distant from everyone else. He doesn't *want* to be famous and would prefer to sink into anonymity, but has finally accepted by the end of GoF that that is never going to happen. Bobby responded: All of a sudden, along comes the son of one of the chief pranksters, one of the people he hated in school. The boy looks like his father and from the start is a celebrity. He begins to get away with all the things the father did. History repeats itself. Snape responds in an inappropriate manner but one that psychology speaking is right for him. I reply: I agree, but only in that that response may be pyschologically right for Snape, but only Snape. IMO, Snape is not separating Harry as person from Snape's interpretation/recollection of James. In the real world, Snape would be getting some serious counseling. Harry never even knew his father, so blaming him for being like him is absurd, but Snape persists anyway. I'll respond to some more replies in another post as this one is too long already. Diana (who hopes this doesn't get mangled by MS Word since I've changed the settings to stop that...hopefully) From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Sat Jan 4 09:40:03 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana ) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 09:40:03 -0000 Subject: Responses to S.N.O.T., detailed analysis of Snape's feelings toward Harry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49184 I must apologize for sending my response to the list the first time without a title. I beg the list's forgiveness for sending this long thing twice - I did want it be properly Titled. I accidentally hit the Enter key before typing the title. Sorry. And I'm doubly sorry for those on digest like myself. :{ Thanks for all the interesting responses! It's been fascinating reading different perspectives on Snape attitude to Harry. I've got some additional statements to explain some misconceptions about my original post on S.N.O.T. First off, I do not hate Snape. I am intrigued by the character as much as the next person. I, too, wonder what caused him to give up his support of Voldemort and gain Dumbledore's trust. Snape, like every character in the book is an integral part of Harry's experience at Hogwarts, `warts' and all, to use a pun. Thankfully, no one has flamed me off list for my post about Snape, but I do believe that Snape is NOT a nice person. Whatever he might do in future books to help/hinder/annoy/etc. Harry and his friends, it does not mean he will suddenly be Mr. Nice-Guy. Second, I do not believe that Lily and James Potter were saints. Sirius and Lupin have both told Harry some traits that they and his father shared that, in hindsight, they aren't so proud of ? creating the Maurader's Map for one example. From what canon we do have on James, we do know he relished being a sort of scoundrel [Han Solo, anyone? :D], like Fred and George, but without, apparently, getting caught. He knowingly abetted and even accompanied a werewolf to run loose in Hogsmeade while still a student in school. Even Lupin and Sirius look back on that and can't believe how dangerous and stupid they were for doing that. James even kept his animagus form secret from Dumbledore after graduating ? a wizard he remained close to even after leaving Hogwarts. Lily is more sketchy as we've not received much info regarding her character when she was at Hogwarts or afterwards, but I seriously doubt she was a saint. I wrote: Snape was jealous of James' popularity, skill at Quidditch and his small group of close-knit friends, all of which Harry now has at Hogwart?s. Even twelve years after James' death, Snape says, sneeringly, "...a little talent on the Quidditch field..." with great derision while interrogating Harry after Harry's head was seen by Malfoy in Hogsmeade [PoA]. He even attributes "strutting" to James, and to Harry, though nothing in canon suggests that James actually strutted around the school." Jim Ferer wrote: See? Any sign of popularity, success, or confidence is hateful to Snape. Confidence, self-worth, comfort in one's skin is bound to look like "strutting" to someone like Snape. My response: Since we're never shown in the books Snape's treatment of other popular students in his classes besides Harry specifically, I have no canon to support my belief that Snape doesn't treat other popular students like he treats Harry. Granted Harry is mind-bogglingly famous, but still Snape does love to rub Harry's fame in his face. Oryomai wrote: Can anyone honestly say that they never hated the people who had everything? (If you think you can, then you were one of the people with everything *grin*) I know I can't. You twist reality in your mind so that these people are keeping you down, and you deserve the glory. I respond: I can honestly say that I didn't hate those popular kids in school. I wasn't part of the popular crowd, either. I graduated from high school 19 years ago this year and I can't even remember most of those popular kids names, let alone fathom keeping alive a deep- seated hatred of any of them just because they were popular and I wasn't so many years ago. I would guess that most people thinking back on school are the same way as me am I right? I had written: "Snape can??t understand this and sees Harry??s rule-breaking as Harry proclaiming how special and famous he is ?Vso special and famous he won??t be punished for breaking rules." Oryomai responded: I agree with Snape there. I personally cannot stand people who break the rules and get ahead, while those of us who follow get nowhere. No one is above the rules. Period. Now, I disagree with you on the "can vs. must". Harry doesn't *have* to do anything, he chooses to. Hence, can wins to me. Acire responded: It is proclaiming how special Harry is, if we go with your theory. If Harry is allowed to break rules because it's his natural tendency, I would hate him too. IIRC (I know I'm using that phrase a lot), most of the times harry gets punished by Snape (with the exception of the escape of Sirius), it's because he is breaking a rule for no reason, such as the flying car incident, sneaking into Hogsmeade, or wandering around Hogwarts at night. He's not supposed to do any of this things, and he has *no reason* to do them. Even DD threatened to expel Harry after the car, and Harry was just lucky Lupin saved the day after the Hogsmeade incident. Snape thinks that Harry's head is so big that he believes rules are above him, as he states in PoA, after Malfoy catches him in Hogsmeade. Harry is breaking the rules knowingly, not because he thinks he's special, but because he is being selfish, as in Hogsmead, or not thinking, as in the flying car. I respond: Here is where we disagree completely. Harry *must* break the rules in the climaxes of the books ? his character won't allow any other possibility. Harry could not live with himself if he didn't pursue what was right, even at the cost of his life. He is afraid when he goes through the obstacles and while facing Quirrell in the search for the Sorcerer's Stone. He is afraid when he goes into the Chamber of Secrets to try to save Ginny's life, even though he doesn't "see how Ginny could possibly be still alive" at that point in the story. When he confronts Sirius and then Lupin in the Shrieking Shack, he didn't end up there because he was looking for Sirius, he ended up there because he thought Ron was going to get eaten by a giant dog if he and Hermione didn't save him! He spent the entire fourth book afraid of being attacked, killed, embarrassed in front the whole school, failing to measure up to other's expectations, you name it! When Harry does flout the rules, such as going into Hogsmeade without permission, for example, he is being strong-willed, stubborn and, quite frankly, naughty. Look at Draco by comparison, he was up late wandering around the school in PS/SS and called attention to that fact from McGonagall just so he could get H/H/R in trouble. Sure, Harry visits Hagrid at odd times, many times without permission, but he's doing it because he loves Hagrid and needs his advice and support and/or is trying to provide emotional support for Hagrid when Hagrid when he needs it. Because the books are written entirely from Harry's point of view, us readers get to see what motivates Harry to do the things he does. Harry doesn't get punished for doing those things because, let's be frank, he's either just saved someone's life, saved the school or been falsely accused. When Harry has been caught for minor rule breaking ? he does get punished, McGonagall gives him detention & takes points from Gryffindor and Flitwick gave him extra Charms homework in GoF. As for the flying car incident, Ron, as a lifetime member of the wizarding community, really should have known better on that one, but, in their defense, they are both only 12 year old boys. What boy wouldn't want to take a flying car to school? :D of flying a car to Hogwarts. Harry does get special treatment from Dumbledore and McGonagall, but that is because they have their own reasons for doing so. McGonagall is head of Gryffindor house and, when mightily pushed to the edge, will take lots of points from H/H/R, but, obviously, won't punish him by removing him from the Quidditch team ? she wants Gryffindor house to win the house cup too much! Dumbledore obviously knows something about Harry that we've not been let in on, whether it's some prophecy about his defeat of Voldemort or ? Dumbledore has his reasons and bends rules accordingly. Fudge saying that " well, we all have a soft spot where Harry is concerned..." is accurate in the wizarding world, but not for the teachers at Hogwarts, IMO. Harry does not regard this special treatment by the wizarding world as a "good thing". His reaction to being a celebrity is to run from it ? as fast a possible. Snape may think Harry has a big head swelled by his fame, but he doesn't. Harry doesn't act like a *famous* person [Gilderoy Lockhart, anyone?]. He has only two close friends with which he shares everything at school, but that's it. He is kind of emotionally distant from everyone else. He doesn't *want* to be famous and would prefer to sink into anonymity, but has finally accepted by the end of GoF that that is never going to happen. Bobby responded: All of a sudden, along comes the son of one of the chief pranksters, one of the people he hated in school. The boy looks like his father and from the start is a celebrity. He begins to get away with all the things the father did. History repeats itself. Snape responds in an inappropriate manner but one that psychology speaking is right for him. I reply: I agree, but only in that that response may be pyschologically right for Snape, but only Snape. IMO, Snape is not separating Harry as person from Snape's interpretation/recollection of James. In the real world, Snape would be getting some serious counseling. Harry never even knew his father, so blaming him for being like him is absurd, but Snape persists anyway. I'll respond to some more replies in another post as this one is too long already. Diana From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sat Jan 4 09:44:16 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 04:44:16 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Muggle-borns Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49185 Did anyone stop to think that Muggle parents might be glad their child was accepted into a Magic School? Not everyone is a Dursley or Tom Riddle Sr. Take the Evans, for example. True, we don't exactly know if they became thrilled (as petunia describes them to be) by the fact that Lily was a witch right when she got her letter or later on when they got used to the whole thing. Granted, there would still be the initial shock. I don't imagine it would go: "Honey, what came in the post today?" "Oh..nothing much...a few bills, those checks I ordered, a letter accepting Hermione into a School for Wizards." "That's nice. How much do we owe on the phone?" .... Some might see it as an opportunity to learn more about the wizarding world or something. Just a thought ^^; ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sat Jan 4 09:57:37 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 04:57:37 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How long has Veron Dursely known about Petunia's fami... Message-ID: <32.32521d50.2b480a11@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49186 In a message dated 1/3/2003 5:53:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk writes: Pip!Speak says: > No, Vernon definitely knows about Petunia's embarrassing relations > before Harry arrives. In the first pages of PS/SS he is quoted as > not wanting anyone to find out about the Potters. Plus he puts funny > clothes, flying owls, shooting stars together with the mention > of 'Potters' and connects it with 'their lot'. That doesn't necessarily mean Petunia didn't tell him until Harry arrived. No one is 100% sure why they kept Baby!Harry instead of sending him off to an orphanage, but many have speculated that it has something to do with the letter Dumbledore left (Perhaps containing information on the Potters' death and Harry's/their protection? Who knows. Maybe one of the reasons they want to 'beat' the magic out of Harry is because they think it'll make LV stay away from their family). I can imagine Petunia had a LOT of explaining to do. As for the owls/shooting stars/all that....well, Veron's had a good 11 years to experience strange things (like the times when Harry accidently uses magic) and to brood over all this. He could probably connect anything strange with 'their lot'. He could connect rock music to it if he wanted to. XXP ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Sat Jan 4 10:05:01 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana ) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 10:05:01 -0000 Subject: JKR's quote about upcoming deaths & my predictions In-Reply-To: <005b01c2b2df$8b6d9160$8fa2cdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49187 Richelle contributed: > To quote JKR from a interview after GoF came out (interview by Evan from cbc.ca): > > E: Writers often say "I loved that character and the most tragic part of my year last year was having to kill them off." > JKR: Well, that's coming. >E: Do you konw already who is going to die in the next books? > JKR: I know all of them who are going to die, yeah. > E: And some characters we might love and you might love? > JKR: I'm definitely killing people I love, yeah. It's horrible isn't it? It is actually. I cried during the writing of that > one (Cedric) for the first time ever. I cried doing the actual writing of it. It really upset me. > E: But in the future there's even more. . . > JKR: There's worse coming. > E: Is there? There's even worse coming, isn't there? > JKR: I don't know why I'm laughing. It's mild hysteria. I've got all these children peering at me. If they knew I > was talking about slaughtering their favorite characters. I find this quote upsetting - not because I think JKR shouldn't write HER books the way she wants to write them, but because I can't help wondering which wonderful characters she will be killing off [okay, okay, *have* Voldemort kill off] in the upcoming books. I fear for my personal favorites, Harry being my most favorite among them. Her quote may be an exaggeration, but I doubt it. Our beloved (YES, they *are* beloved!) characters are going to war against Voldemort and we have only hope that our personal favorites will survive. JKR has said Hermione represents herself in the books, so I doubt Hermione will die. Most authors do not kill the projections of themselves in their own books. It does happen, but it's rare. Hagrid is a likely candidate to die because JKR has said he is her favorite character and she said she is killing people she loves. Neville Longbottom and/or Fred or George Weasley may also be doomed. And, as mentioned many times by others, Dennis and/or Colin Creevey have bulleyes on them as well. As for Sirius, Lupin, Dumbledore, McGonagall, Molly, Arthur basically all the adults, it's up in the air for who will scrape through the last three books still breathing. All are likely canidates for dying in the war against Voldemort. The death of children in books has always bothered me a great deal more than the death of adults, so I'm hoping that if there is heavy casualties, that's its adults and not children or teens. There are many other characters who may be killed who were once integral parts of the books but are not now, such as Oliver Wood, for example. Any of the wizards, witches, and even muggles (Hermione's parents maybe?) mentioned in any of the current four books will be fair game, so we may be surprised by who is killed off in the last three books because we may not have thought about them for a while. All I know is that I'm probably going to cry while reading about all those deaths...sigh...I hate crying while reading. Diana From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Sat Jan 4 10:25:24 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana ) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 10:25:24 -0000 Subject: Possible Harry 'death' scenario Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49188 These individual threads have been mentioned several times by other posters, but I wanted to pick up these threads and tie them into a big knot, okay, make that a pretty bow...:D If someone else has already assembled this bow, then sorry for stepping on your loops. *When Harry first attends Snape's class, Snape mentions a sleeping draught so powerful that it's effects mimic death. Could be a major clue in the first book about the ending of the seventh book. *Another list member posted a quote of JKR's about if people know their Christian doctrine, they'll know what's coming. *JKR has said there will be upsetting deaths in future books. Harry's death would be grossly upsetting. What if Harry is fed a "draught of death" potion to fool Voldemort into thinking he's dead? Harry could have no knowledge in advance about this plan and think he's really dying. If Harry doesn't know it is very likely that Ron and Hermione would not know of this plan in advance either. The question is what benefit would the good side win by fooling Voldemort into believing Harry had died? That is a question I wonder about as I don't know what connection, whether mystical, prophetical and/or even familial Voldemort and Harry might have. If Harry "dies" and is then revived when the potion wears off or is counteracted, then, like in the Christian doctrine JKR mentions, Harry would come back from the "dead". Sure he wasn't really dead, but no one else other than the person who planned Harry's pseudo- death and gave him the potion may know this. Dumbledore says that people can't come back to life...but if Harry *appears* to have come back to life...that may cause Voldemort considerable distress. And I do *love* to see old Voldie in distress! I could see Voldemort thinking he's finally gotten rid of Harry when Harry pops back into life, shocking Voldemort so badly he makes mistakes that topple him and his Death Eaters utterly and forever. Granted, I'm not overly familiar with Christian doctrine, so I may be barking up the wrong tree, but if it's the idea of being "reborn" and coming back to life a la Christ, then maybe I'm not too far off? It's even possible that JKR would write Harry's death without letting the reader know that Harry really didn't die, until the entire plan was explained later on in the book. Kind of tricky way to have the main character die, but not *die*. What do you think? Diana From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 4 11:11:58 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak ) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 11:11:58 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Movie contamination? WAS Re: How long has Veron Dursely known In-Reply-To: <32.32521d50.2b480a11@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49189 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote: > In a message dated 1/3/2003 5:53:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, > pipdowns at e... writes: > > Pip!Speak says: > > > No, Vernon definitely knows about Petunia's embarrassing > > relations before Harry arrives. In the first pages of PS/SS he > > is quoted as not wanting anyone to find out about the Potters. > > Plus he puts funny clothes, flying owls, shooting stars together > > with the mention of 'Potters' and connects it with 'their lot'. > > That doesn't necessarily mean Petunia didn't tell him until Harry > arrived. No one is 100% sure why they kept Baby!Harry instead of > sending him off to an orphanage, but many have speculated that it > has something to do with the letter Dumbledore left (Perhaps > containing information on the Potters' death and Harry's/their > protection? Who knows. Maybe one of the reasons they want to 'beat' the magic out of Harry is because they think it'll make LV > stay away from their family). > > I can imagine Petunia had a LOT of explaining to do. > > As for the owls/shooting stars/all that....well, Veron's had a > good 11 years to experience strange things (like the times when >Harry accidently uses magic) and to brood over all this. He could > probably connect anything strangewith 'their lot'. He could connect rock music to it if he wanted to. XXP > > ~Cassie~ The recording switched off, and George,in his doctor's outfit, smiled kindly at Cassie. "When did you start thinking that the first time we see the Dursley's is *after* Harry is deposited on their doorstep?" Cassie stared blankly at him "Well it is. Voldemort kills the Potters, Harry gets deposited on the doorstep, eleven years later we see the Dursley's" George sighs, pats Cassie on the hand in a comforting manner, and goes outside to where the Pipsqueak is waiting. "Is she all right, Doctor?" says Pip. "I brought her as soon as I could." George sighs. "I'm not sure. I think it might be movie contamination." "Movie contamination?" "Yes. Cassie's confusing the first scenes in TCTTMNB (where we don't see the Dursley's until *after* Harry arrives) with the first pages in the *book* (where we have five pages about the Dursley's life *before* Harry)." The pipsqueak went white. She knew how contagious movie contamination was. Entire threads could find themselves discussing Ron's visit to the Forbidden Forest in PS/SS before realising that this never happened in the book. "Is there a cure?" she quavered. George rubbed his chin, thoughtfully. "Well, if it is movie contamination, and I'm not yet sure that it is, then there is a prescription that should work." "What's that Doctor?" "Rereading PS/SS. Even rereading the first chapter might be enough to do the trick." Pip!Squeak [For an explanation of TBAY, see Hypothetic Alley in its shiny new home at http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hypotheticalley.html ] From snorth at ucla.edu Sat Jan 4 11:28:59 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 03:28:59 -0800 Subject: : Muggle-borns References: Message-ID: <000a01c2b3e4$7a6ca0d0$2100a8c0@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 49190 Hi all, this is my first post, so forgive me if this has been brought up. With so much time since GoF was released, I have to imagine most theories have been beaten into the ground. Anyway-- I've always wondered about Muggle Born students since first seeing SS/f (I am somewhat ashamed to admit that I didn't read any of the books until after seeing both movies... I've read them a few times over since, however). That 'proud to have a witch in the family' comment from Petunia (in regards to her parents attitudes toward Lily) was always interesting to me. Now, it's getting hard to distinguish information from the books, and from reading other peoples' theories, but I seem to recall Ron saying in CoS that he imagines that wizards might have died out if they hadn't interbred with muggles. So that leads to the question-- is it possible for a wizard to be born to parents of ZERO magical ancestry? I'm not really sure if that's true or not (there may be some text evidence to indicate that is... geez it's late), but my general feeling is that since magical ability definitely appears hereditary in the books, I would guess that all muggle borns have some Magical heritage. This of course, hasn't really been intimated in the books, and is basically just trying to apply real world logic to fiction. Anyway, if muggle born students had a magical grandparent, or great-grandparent, well, that would certainly explain quite a bit. Also, this would possibly give a reason why muggle born parents would be able to find magical locales-- perhaps since they carry magical genes, they're immune to anti-muggle spells (or of course, it's pretty easy to imagine that once they've been shown the entrance to a magicallly concealed location, they can find it on their own). Anyway... Ockham's Razor would probably just tell us that instead of getting ONLY a letter, a true muggle born would have a guide as well. Oh well. --Scott, who should go to bed P.S. I promise my next post will be more coherent. From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sat Jan 4 12:06:13 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 07:06:13 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] TBAY: Movie contamination? WAS Re: How long has Veron Dur... Message-ID: <133.1968f4a5.2b482835@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49191 In a message dated 1/4/2003 6:13:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk writes: > The recording switched off, and George,in his doctor's outfit, > smiled kindly at Cassie. "When did you start thinking that the first > time we see the Dursley's is *after* Harry is deposited on their > doorstep?" > > Cassie stared blankly at him > "Well it is. Voldemort kills the Potters, Harry gets deposited on > the doorstep, eleven years later we see the Dursley's" > > George sighs, pats Cassie on the hand in a comforting manner, and > goes outside to where the Pipsqueak is waiting. > > "Is she all right, Doctor?" says Pip. "I brought her as soon as I > could." > > George sighs. "I'm not sure. I think it might be movie > contamination." > > "Movie contamination?" > > "Yes. Cassie's confusing the first scenes in TCTTMNB (where we don't > see the Dursley's until *after* Harry arrives) with the first pages > in the *book* (where we have five pages about the Dursley's life > *before* Harry)." > > The pipsqueak went white. She knew how contagious movie > contamination was. Entire threads could find themselves discussing > Ron's visit to the Forbidden Forest in PS/SS before realising that > this never happened in the book. > > "Is there a cure?" she quavered. > > George rubbed his chin, thoughtfully. "Well, if it is movie > contamination, and I'm not yet sure that it is, then there is a > prescription that should work." > > "What's that Doctor?" > > "Rereading PS/SS. Even rereading the first chapter might be enough > to do the trick." Cassie looked up at them weakly. "It...it was the one tape. It was controlling me. And the men who played Quirrell-chan and Sevi-chan are so pretty..." Cassie sighed dreamily. "Ah-ha!" the doctor exclaimed suddenly "Gah!" Pip said in surprise, nearly losing her balance. "What? What is it?" "Just as I thought...Stage four of movie contamination." "Stage four?" "Yes. Also known as the 'bizzare lust phase'. It's clear that Cassie has become so infactuated with the characters of Quirrell, Severus Snape, and Lucius Malfoy that she has lost all her reasoning and she likes to look at the actors who play them in the movies because they all have adorable smiles and lovely voices. It is also clear that she lent her book to her girlfriend, Kragey, and the only tape she can't seem to find of her talking books seems to be the one with that first chapter, which will probably turn up in the most obvious of places." Cassie hung her head in shame. How could she've let such a thing happen?... ~Cassie~ Grace: You have given into your anger...NOW RELEASE YOUR RANDINESS! Snape: For the final time I am NOT going to have sex with you! Dumbledore: *enters* About to have sex, are we? Well, be sure and use a condom! Snape: Condom? Dumbledore: Yes. I happen to have some with me. *pulls out a box* Bertie Botts Every Flavour Condoms! Grace: Bertie Botts Every Flavour Condoms? Dumbledore: Yes. I was very unfortunate in my youth to come across a vomit flavoured one. Since then I've lost my liking for them. All: 0_o; -This excerpt brought to you by the minds of Cassie and Grace. (Yes, we're just as scared as you are right now.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sat Jan 4 12:19:17 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 07:19:17 EST Subject: How long did Veron Dursley know (Retraction) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49192 After having some sense graciously knocked into me by Pip!Squeak I've decided to retract my theory about Veron not knowing about Petunia's family until after Harry arrived. I still, however, wonder when he did find out and how he took it. ^^; ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jferer at yahoo.com Sat Jan 4 12:31:14 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 12:31:14 -0000 Subject: Muggle-borns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49193 Cassie:"Did anyone stop to think that Muggle parents might be glad their child was accepted into a Magic School? Not everyone is a Dursley or Tom Riddle Sr." Sure, all of us would be, but as you suggested, not many would be glad the day they got the letter. I mean, their world's been turned upside-down, for starters, and their child is going away. It happens my older daughter turned 11 in July. If I suddenly found out she was going away to a place like Hogwarts, it would be what they call an *issue*. Having a daughter that age also makes me realize something about the characters: they were really, really young when they faced the dangers they did. My kids would be as helpless as infants if they saw a full grown mountain troll or landed in Devils' Snare. But I digress. From jferer at yahoo.com Sat Jan 4 14:53:13 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 14:53:13 -0000 Subject: Muggle-borns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49194 Ahlease:"I would like to point out that these kids *have* wizard powers, -there are several different characters that talk about their pre-Hogwarts experience with magic. namely making things blow up without meaning to, making glass disappear... strange things happening when ever they got highly emotional. these kids have power." True, and it probably caused some degree of consternation in the family. Ahlease:"This is how hogwarts found them." Actually, whenever a magical child is born, a magical quill writes the baby's name in a book. Prof. McGonagall checks the book and sends the letter to those who are 11. (from a Scholastic interview with JKR) Ahlease:"Their parents probably relieved to have their kids issues explained. And if not- a proper memory charm and some wards on the kids would clear the issue up just as well." I agree, partly, but as Stan Shunpike says, '[Muggles] don't look properly, do they?' IOW, we Muggles find all sorts of ways to explain away the magic right in front of our faces. From cantor at vgernet.net Sat Jan 4 16:02:43 2003 From: cantor at vgernet.net (cantoramy ) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 16:02:43 -0000 Subject: Death and time Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49195 This is my first posting, so please excuse me if this has been discussed before. In PoA, Harry and Hermione are able to use the Time Turner to liberate Buckbeak, thereby preventing his death. Yet in GoF, no one suggests using the TT to prevent Voldemort's return and Cedric's death. I know that Dumbledore says in GoF that "no spell can reawaken the dead." Would the TT qualify as a spell? cantoramy From dmtranscript at aol.com Sat Jan 4 17:10:07 2003 From: dmtranscript at aol.com (dmtranscript at aol.com) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 12:10:07 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Time Turner Message-ID: <65.6370bf0.2b486f6f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49196 In a message dated 1/2/03 8:30:50 PM Central Standard Time, siskiou at earthlink.net writes: > This was one reason that made me believe that the use of > time turners is extremely restricted and mostly a secret, > otherwise Ron would have heard of it before. > > Hi, all! newbie here.........Went to see CoS in the theater a couple weeks ago and of course had to go and get all four books the next day ;). (just started GoF). Anyway, I was thinking that what with Harry being supposedly pursued by a madman and all the problems with the dementors and Ron being taken up with keeping Scabbers out of Crookshanks' jaws and all, AND with there being a little bit of a rift between Hermione and the two boys (whew), they just didn't give all that much thought to Hermione's schedule, really. I mean they ARE just 12, right? Dmitri/Douglas Mosier Iowa City, Iowa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sjd914 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 4 17:33:35 2003 From: sjd914 at yahoo.com (sjd914 ) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 17:33:35 -0000 Subject: Petunia vs. Filch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49197 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "blind_nil_date " wrote: > Has anyone noticed the similarites between Aunt Petunia and Argus > Filch? Uncanny, really. Their obsessive cleaning compulsion, Petunia > dotes on Dudley, Filch dotes on Mrs. Norris, they both HATE magic > and the people who use it, etc. I think that perhaps Aunt Petunia > is bitter about Lilly because Petunia is a squib! > > Comments on this? > > Blind Nil Date I definately think that Petunia is a Squib. In PS/SS in the scene where Hagrid comes to pick up Harry to go to Diagon Alley Petunia says something along the lines of, "Oh, sure, my parents where proud to have a witch in the family. She coming back from vacations with frogspawn in her pockets and turning teacups into rats. I was the only one who say her for what she really was, a freak!" (sorry if I messed up, I don't have a book with me at the moment) If the were really a muggle family, having a witch in the family wouldn't be something be be proud of (or to be embaressed about) it would be totaly knew to you. Likewise if they were a completely wizarding family they wouldn't be proud, it is kind of expected. Thats why I think that Petunia and Lily came from mixed parentage and were half bloods. Thats why Petunia ended up being a squib, but they were still proud of Lily for being a witch since there was a fair chance that both of their children would be squibs. -Sajid From rvotaw at i-55.com Sat Jan 4 17:39:12 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 11:39:12 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR's quote about upcoming deaths/ Possible Harry 'death' scenario References: Message-ID: <00ff01c2b418$3e84caa0$bb9ecdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 49198 Richelle contributed: > To quote JKR from a interview after GoF came out (interview by Evan from cbc.ca): > > JKR: I'm definitely killing people I love, yeah. It's horrible isn't it? > JKR: I don't know why I'm laughing. It's mild hysteria. I've got all these children peering at me. If they knew I > was talking about slaughtering their favorite characters. Diana writes: >I find this quote upsetting - not because I think JKR shouldn't >write HER books the way she wants to write them, but because I can't >help wondering which wonderful characters she will be killing off >[okay, okay, *have* Voldemort kill off] in the upcoming books. I >fear for my personal favorites, Harry being my most favorite among >them. I must say, I really don't think JKR will kill Harry. I really don't. Why? Namely because every time she is asked about writing about Harry later on or whatever she says the same thing. "What makes you think Harry will live?" or something similar. Now, if she was indeed going to kill Harry, I think she'd just reply with "I'll probably be ready to move on to something else." I she really were going to kill him, I don't think she'd keep bringing it up. Diana again: > *Another list member posted a quote of JKR's about if people know > their Christian doctrine, they'll know what's coming. First, I'll say I agree with you that the death, burial, and resurrection is the key to Christian doctrine. The biggest single significant event. And resurrection is the key, as naturally anyone can die and be buried. > *JKR has said there will be upsetting deaths in future books. > Harry's death would be grossly upsetting. > > What if Harry is fed a "draught of death" potion to fool Voldemort > into thinking he's dead? Could be, could be. I certainly think that the potion would not have been so skillfully explained by Snape if it weren't to play a role at some point in the books. There's also the Elixir of Life. Sure, we don't know it can bring back the dead. But then we don't know much about it at all. Still, for the stone playing such an important role in the first book, it sure did disappear quickly. Yes, Dumbledore said it was destroyed. No reason not to believe Dumbledore. There's also no reason to think there wasn't at least a little Elixir stored up someplace. I won't jump into the theory of baby Harry and Elixir at the moment, though. Yet as someone pointed out earlier, there's dead, and then there's dead. Perhaps Harry could be "dead" long enough to weaken Voldemort to the point of destruction (or for him to let down his guard). Then with the Elixir dripping into his mouth, trickling down his throat, he lives. Yes, it's far out, but hey, this is fantasy after all. Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sjd914 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 4 17:44:28 2003 From: sjd914 at yahoo.com (sjd914 ) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 17:44:28 -0000 Subject: Running Weasel myth? was Re: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: New URL for "Fantastic Posts" In-Reply-To: <75107297630.20030103200552@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49199 Susanne wrote: > I was browsing through the posts and came across the one > taking about Ron and the Running weasel myth, something > about a yellow rat killing him. > > I've seen this mentioned before and have searched high and > low for any reference that it exists, but have come up with > only posts about it in HP forums. None of the post contained > any links to the actual story and I'm starting to wonder if > it's just a manufactured rumor . > > Does anyone have any info about this myth? I am also pretty convinced that Running Weasel in completely made up. I did a search on Google with the following requirements: Must have the phrase "Running Weasel" and must not have the words: Harry Potter, Ron Weasley. I found some results but only a couple mentioned Running Weasel as a name. One mentioned his death but none of the circumstances around it. A couple had him in a list of Native American chiefs. I tihnk someone saw this name and made a story around it. After the third book when we found out Scabberd was Pettigrew a new detail popped up was that his rat killed him. So in general I think that this story is also fabricated around the books. - Sajid From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 4 17:58:24 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura ) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 17:58:24 -0000 Subject: Harry dying In-Reply-To: <006601c2b2bf$7b6a31d0$daa0cdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49200 "snapesrighthand" writes: > > > Did Quirrel actually die in the book? I know he did in the movie but... I do not remember Quirrel actually dying... I thought he was in the hospital wing with Harry? Am I reading too much fanfiction? > > > In GoF, Voldemort says (US paperback,p.654) "the servant died when I left his body." Which could mean that he did die. Or that, like Richelle says, he "left Quirrell to die" Richelle responded: > > > No, he was not in the hospital wing with Harry. All we really know about Quirrell is that Dumbledore tells Harry in the hospital wing that Voldemort "left Quirrell to die; he shows as little mercy to his followers as his enemies." I don't remember him being mentioned again. It certainly implies that Quirrell died when Voldemort left his body. > > > Yes, it clearly IMPLIES that. *evil grin* Voldemort may have left Quirrell for dead...but does that mean that he necessarily died? I don't really believe that he somehow got up and walked away, I mean how could he have managed that without anyone noticing? But then, Crouch Jr impersonated Moody (a good friend of Dumbledore's) for a year...so although I find it unlikely that Quirrell is still out there, I would definitely not rule out the possibility. Look what happened last time we assumed someone was dead *coughPettigrewcough* =) -Laura From danny_tenenbaum at yahoo.com Sat Jan 4 18:36:39 2003 From: danny_tenenbaum at yahoo.com (Danny Tenenbaum) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 10:36:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Death and time In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030104183639.31733.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49201 --- "cantoramy " wrote: > In PoA, Harry and Hermione are able to use the Time > Turner to > liberate Buckbeak, thereby preventing his death. > Yet in GoF, no one > suggests using the TT to prevent Voldemort's return > and Cedric's > death. I know that Dumbledore says in GoF that "no > spell can > reawaken the dead." Would the TT qualify as a > spell? > Me: The difference is, Buckbeak was never excecuted in the first place, while Cedric died the first time around. So, in a way, Dumbledore was right, no spell can reawaken the dead, but using the time turner one can prevent the death from occurring in the first place. The problem with Cedric's death is that it was completely unexpected, whereas Buckbeak's death was a planned excecution. Danny From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sat Jan 4 18:55:58 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody ) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 18:55:58 -0000 Subject: Death and time In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49202 Cantoramy wrote: > This is my first posting, so please excuse me if this has been > discussed before. Welcome Cantoramy. :) This actually was discussed last week, but since we all love to hear ourselves talk, I'll do my best to explain why Cedric could not of been saved. Catoramy asked: > In PoA, Harry and Hermione are able to use the Time Turner to > liberate Buckbeak, thereby preventing his death. Yet in GoF, no one > suggests using the TT to prevent Voldemort's return and Cedric's > death. I know that Dumbledore says in GoF that "no spell can > reawaken the dead." Would the TT qualify as a spell? You are getting stuck on how we *read* the events and how they actually happened in time. When you first read the events before H1&H1 (Harry and Hermione *before* they use the time turner) use the time turner, you do not realize that H2&H2 (Harry and Hermione *after* they use the time turner) are in fact there at the same time. The time turner was *not* used to save Buckbeak after he had already died but to save him period. Dumbledore knew that Buckbeak was not tethered behind Hagrid's hut (and therefore not dead) when they were in the hospital wing as he told H1&H1 to use the time turner. He *knew* Buckbeak was saved. Are you following me? What was in our mind a reality without a used time turner was in fact the exact time the TT was being used. Turn off your muggle reality a minute and imagine this fact. A loop in time was created and two Harry's and two Hermione's existed for three hours. Just H1&H1 did not know H2&H2 were there. So therefore, when we first read about H1&H1 we do not know that Buckbeak was saved. We think, as they do, that Buckbeak died with the ax swing. Later on we learn that the ax swing we heard was out of frustration and not a murderous zeal. Poor MacNair was deprived. How tragic. Anyway... So the TT did not save Buckbeak's life per say. It was just what happened in the future to bring about the events in the past. Hehe, got that? :D So really, the fact Cedric did in fact *die* cannot be helped by a time turner, because events that happen in the past cannot be changed in the future. H2&H2 did not change events when they went back in time. They in fact just performed the events that did happen in the past. Oh gracious this talks circles. Sorry. I hope you can follow this. My line of logic is sound but it has problems with being explained in plain English (which is tragic on my part since I cannot speak any other language). So then, Cedric is dead and there is nothing they can do about it. If there was then it would of happened in the present which could not of happened because they would of only known they needed to use the TT by what happened in the past which brings us to the reality that he was in fact dead and that cannot be changed. Hehe. Confused yet? So why is it that H2&H2 could do any good with Black? Well, they went back in the past to reach the moment in the present where they can be in the right place to save Black in the future. Once H1&H1 disappeared in the hospital wing, there was only one set of H&H left, so they became *the* H&H. Then they can save Black since that is now the present. So to cap this ever so confusing explanation that I fear might have not of helped at *all*.... Buckbeak never died; so therefore, the Time Turner did not "save" his life. It just allowed what happened in the past to happen with people from the future. :D So then, Cedric could not of been saved by the TT. He is, unfortunately, dead. Melody From jodel at aol.com Sat Jan 4 19:00:52 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 14:00:52 EST Subject: /empathy/ Message-ID: <12b.1f2cc455.2b488964@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49203 Anne U wrote: << Was Harry's childhood less lousy than Tom Riddle's? Hard to say whether it's worse to grow up in a Muggle orphanage than to spend almost every waking minute being tormented emotionally by the Dursleys. >> Catlady responds; I'm pretty sure that Harry had it worse. The Dursleys didn't *just* emotionally torment him: they skimped on his food and clothing, he couldn't have had much of a bed in his cupboard, if the parents didn't physically chastise him, Dudley did -- whatever horrors early twentieth century orphanages are blamed for, the Dursleys tried to provide the same.<< The real difference is that Harry, unlike Tom, was not thrust into this kind of hostile environment from birth. He may have no consious memory of it, but he got the advantage of having had 15 months as a loved and wanted child, and acto everything I've ever read on the subject, that is likely to make a big difference on the development of the "self". Tom never knew anything but hostility, indifference and cool charity. -JOdel From lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com Sat Jan 4 18:56:55 2003 From: lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com (lindseyharrisst ) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 18:56:55 -0000 Subject: A detailed analysis of Snape's hatred of Harry (S.N.O... In-Reply-To: <7a.34b27fe2.2b460e80@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49204 > In a message dated 02/01/2003 19:53:59 GMT Standard Time, > splinched at h... writes: > >It seems to me he's (Snape's) been a victim of prejudices of > >reputation from the start..(in reation to not getting the DADA job). I reckon: Snape does n't actually want the DADA job per se, he simply would like to be in a position to apply. (As someone else said, Lockhart got the job according to Hagrid because there were no other applications.) This obviously means he restrained himself from applying, possibly on the advice of Dumbledore. I think that it may be inappropriate for a former death eater (who as far as all the Slytherins know, was a Voldemort supporter - they may not know he was an actual death eater)to take a job that is so opposed to the support for the dark arts he is meant to show to keep up his character facade and allow people like Lucius to continue thinking he is on their side. He would either blow his cover with Voldemort, or else have to teach dark arts badly to give the impression that it is a bluff by Snape and he is really seeking the triamph of the dark by keeping the students ill prepared deliberately. Obviously neither of these would be good for the pupils in preparing them for the forthcoming war. He wishes this was not the case, but knows it is. He would love to be able to declare his open support for Dumbledor and consequently see an end to all the whispering campaigns by the students and everyone else. Teaching DADA would be a proclamation of his loyalties and prove Dumbledore trusts him. (We know Dumbledore does trust Snape, and Snape knows too, I feel, but he wants it to be proven to all the doubting Thomases out there). He can't wait for the need for him to spy to be over and Voldemort to be beaten. Being a spy is dangerous and thankless and a symbol of a divided wizarding world. DADA is too front line for someone whose work is covert. I think he knows potions is his strong point and his speech at the begining of the first potions lesson is spoken with passion for his subject that shines through the intended menace. Besides, even if they could n't find a better DADA teacher than Snape, that would leave a vacancy for a potions master and I don't see anyone else being able to do that job as well as he can :) Snapesangel xXXXXx From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Sat Jan 4 19:54:10 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica ) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 19:54:10 -0000 Subject: Running Weasel myth? was Re: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: New URL for "Fantastic Posts" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49205 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sjd914 " wrote: > Susanne wrote: > > > I was browsing through the posts and came across the one > > taking about Ron and the Running weasel myth, something > > about a yellow rat killing him. > > > > I've seen this mentioned before and have searched high and > > low for any reference that it exists, but have come up with > > only posts about it in HP forums. None of the post contained > > any links to the actual story and I'm starting to wonder if > > it's just a manufactured rumor . > > > > Does anyone have any info about this myth? > Sajid wrote: I am also pretty convinced that Running Weasel in completely made > up. I did a search on Google with the following requirements: Must > have the phrase "Running Weasel" and must not have the words: Harry > Potter, Ron Weasley. I found some results but only a couple mentioned > Running Weasel as a name. One mentioned his death but none of the > circumstances around it. A couple had him in a list of Native > American chiefs. I tihnk someone saw this name and made a story > around it. After the third book when we found out Scabberd was > Pettigrew a new detail popped up was that his rat killed him. So in > general I think that this story is also fabricated around the books. I've been looking for something on that 'Running Weasel" legend too (on the web) and though I didn't find anything about *it* specifically I did find ... that the word 'weasel' in Cherokee is, literally, "yellow rat'. In chinese a (yellow) weasel is called 'huang shu lang' (yellow-rat-wolf(?)) and there is a story about a yellow rat being a portent of death for a king in the Han dynasty: "Let us consider some specific examples of Han dynasty interpretations of alleged portents by examining a few passages from works of history compiled by official scholars. First: In the first year of the Yuanfeng era [80 BCE] a yellow rat appeared in Yan holding its tail in its mouth and dancing in the main gate of the king's palace. When the king went to see it the rat continued to dance as before. Then he ordered one of his officials to offer it wine and dried meat, but still the rat went on dancing without stop all day and night until it died. At that time King Ci of Yan was plotting a revolt and this was a sign that he would soon die. In the same month, the plot was discovered and he was condemned to death." Perhaps this is where the supposed 'Running Weasel' ('Dancing Yellow Rat' ?) legend comes from. ~Erica From Audra1976 at aol.com Sat Jan 4 20:11:38 2003 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 15:11:38 EST Subject: Petunia vs. Filch Message-ID: <120.1bda9186.2b4899fa@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49206 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "blind_nil_date " wrote: > I think that perhaps Aunt Petunia is bitter about Lilly because Petunia is a squib! > Comments on this? sjd914 at yahoo.com writes: > I definitely think that Petunia is a Squib. > > If they were really a muggle family, having a witch in the family wouldn't > be > something be be proud of (or to be embarassed about) it would be > totally new to you. Likewise if they were a completely wizarding > family they wouldn't be proud, it is kind of expected. Thats why I > think that Petunia and Lily came from mixed parentage and were half > bloods. Me: However, according a JK Rowling interview, Lily really is "muggle born" -- unless JK is yanking our chains and it turns out that her father was a wizard and her mother was a muggle, meaning Lily was born from a muggle, and literally "muggle born," but I don't think she would say that. She has always used "muggle born" to mean a witch or wizard with *both* muggle parents, like Hermione. So by JK's word, Petunia cannot be a squib (unless she was adopted). And Petunia's statement about Mr. and Mrs. Evans being proud to have a witch in the family doesn't necessarily mean they had prior knowledge about the WW. They could have been proud after they found out what it was all about. Audra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From siskiou at earthlink.net Sat Jan 4 20:18:53 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 12:18:53 -0800 Subject: Running Weasel myth? was Re: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: New URL for "Fantastic Posts" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <84165687278.20030104121853@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 49207 Hi, Saturday, January 04, 2003, 11:54:10 AM, Erica wrote: > Then he ordered one of his officials to offer it > wine and dried meat, but still the rat went on dancing without stop > all day and night until it died. At that time King Ci of Yan was > plotting a revolt and this was a sign that he would soon die. In the > same month, the plot was discovered and he was condemned to death." Thanks for passing on the info :) It seems there are several of us trying to find out more about this myth. So, does this mean that since Ron didn't succeed in turning Scabbers yellow, he's safe ;) And what about the chess playing? Any mention of that? I still wonder if Weasley=Weasel, anyhow. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From srsiriusblack at aol.com Sat Jan 4 20:59:56 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 15:59:56 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Petunia vs. Filch Message-ID: <126.1ea0bed3.2b48a54c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49208 In a message dated 04/01/2003 15:12:28 Eastern Standard Time, Audra1976 at aol.com writes: > And Petunia's statement about Mr. and Mrs. Evans being proud to have a witch > > in the family doesn't necessarily mean they had prior knowledge about the > WW. > They could have been proud after they found out what it was all about. I agree whole-heartedly here. Using Hermione's family as an example, JKR establishes that Muggle parents *can* be very proud and happy for their children... She also shows the trepidation of Muggles in the WW when she shows Hermione's parents in Diagon Alley. They are proud of Hermione, yet still show signs of fear of the unknown. This, I think, is also an analogy for anything that children become that is different from their parents.... Petunia is probably an example of the less understanding muggle parents. But, I would suspect that most muggles that were upset, horrifed, etc. over the discovery of a child's wizarding gifts would still send said child to a WW school. For many reasons... The aforemost in my mind being that an untrained witch or wizard would most likely be dangerous-- look at the strange things that happened to Harry before he began his schooling and his awareness of his gifts. And secondly, to compare it to something more real, it would be a way for the parents to dismiss a child that was frightening to them.... much like *some* people have abandoned/expelled from homes their children based on sexuality, religion, etc. Just my thoughts..... -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Audra1976 at aol.com Sat Jan 4 22:11:40 2003 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 17:11:40 EST Subject: Death and time Message-ID: <103.2350a63e.2b48b61c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49209 In a message dated 04/01/2003 13:57:49 Eastern Standard Time, Malady579 at hotmail.com writes: > Buckbeak never died; so therefore, the Time Turner did not "save" his > life. It just allowed what happened in the past to happen with people > from the future. :D So then, Cedric could not of been saved by the > TT. He is, unfortunately, dead. Me: Okay, I understand that concept that Buckbeak never actually died and Cedric did, but Buckbeak *would* have probably died had someone not used the Time Turner to remove him from Hagrid's yard. So TT users are obviously able to mess with past events. Their actions have consequences in the future that would not exist had the TT never been used. I think Cedric *could* possibly have been saved by the Time Turner. If a character used it to travel back to just before the Third Task and (successfully avoiding their past self) bonked Cedric on the head, or stunned him or something, and tied him and prevented him from going into the maze, then he probably would still be alive, right? That has nothing to do with bringing someone back from the dead because Cedric would not be dead. Because of the TT, Cedric never would have actually died, just like Buckbeak never actually died. Actually, he would never show up to the Third Task at all. The problem is there would necessarily be other changes to time after the character stopped Cedric from going to the maze. For example, in the changed timeline, Harry might not have finished the maze, or Harry might die in the graveyard, or any number of things could happen differently. The changes are unknowable. I think that Dumbledore, although he regrets Cedric's death, is generally satisfied with the way things turned out with Harry and Voldemort, and wouldn't risk changing that, so he did not suggest using the Time Turner again. Audra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Jan 4 22:56:15 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 22:56:15 -0000 Subject: Death and time In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49210 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Melody " wrote: > Cantoramy wrote: > Catoramy asked: > > In PoA, Harry and Hermione are able to use the Time Turner to > > liberate Buckbeak, thereby preventing his death. Yet in GoF, > > no one suggests using the TT to prevent Voldemort's return and > > Cedric's death. I know that Dumbledore says in GoF that "no > > spell can reawaken the dead." Would the TT qualify as a spell? > Melody replied: > > The time turner was *not* used to save Buckbeak after he had already > died but to save him period. Dumbledore knew that Buckbeak was not > tethered behind Hagrid's hut (and therefore not dead) when they were > in the hospital wing as he told H1&H1 to use the time turner. He > *knew* Buckbeak was saved. Are you following me? What was in our > mind a reality without a used time turner was in fact the exact time > the TT was being used. > > ...VBE...Very Big Edit... > > > Melody bboy_mn: Perhaps, if we look at this from Dumbledore's perspective, we can explain it in very few un-convoluted words (then again, maybe not). Dumlbedore comes out of Hagrid's cabin for the execution and like everyone else see that Buckbeak has escaped. Dumbledore is happy, he never wanted Buckbeak executed in the first place. Now we move to the hospital room. Dumlbedore believes that Sirius is innocent; Dumbledore knows that Buckbeak escape which means that Buckbeak if he have be found is available to help Sirius escape. So, Dumbledore sends Harry and Hermione back in time to catch Buckbeak when he escapes and has them use him to save Sirius. Dumbledore is NOT aware that it was actually Harry and Hermione (version TWO) who stole Buckbeak and saved him from the execution. All he know is that Buckbeak was never executed. So, Har2&Her2 capture Buckbeak and save Sirius. History was never changed. The only difference is that after the fact, we know why history played out the way it did. History was never change. That's the most fundamental rule of time travel. To save Cedric or stop Voldemort would indeed change known documented history, and that could lead to cataclysmic consequences. As a side note in anticipation of someone asking, why did Dumbledore say that H1&H1 could save TWO lives that night, if he already knew Buckbeak was not executed? While he knows Buckbeak was not executed, he by no means knows that Buckbeak is out of harms way. But if Sirius uses Buckbeak to escape, Buckbeak will be under someone's protective care and a long long way from the Ministry's reach. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Jan 4 23:33:27 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 23:33:27 -0000 Subject: Death and time In-Reply-To: <103.2350a63e.2b48b61c@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49211 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Audra1976 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 04/01/2003 13:57:49 Eastern Standard Time, > Malady579 at h... writes: > > > Buckbeak never died; so therefore, the Time Turner did not "save" > > his life. It just allowed what happened in the past to happen > > with people from the future. :D So then, Cedric could not of > > been saved by the TT. He is, unfortunately, dead. > > Me: > > Okay, I understand that concept that Buckbeak never actually died > and Cedric did, but Buckbeak *would* have probably died had someone > not used the Time Turner to remove him from Hagrid's yard. So TT > users are obviously able to mess with past events. Their actions > have consequences in the future that would not exist had the TT > never been used. > > I think Cedric *could* possibly have been saved by the Time Turner. > If ....edited... > > Audra bboy_mn: Read the next post for part of my explaination (#49210, the post I'm responding to is 49209). "...Buckbeak probably *would* have died...." We all probably will have died at some point in our lives, but unless you happen to be dead now, you haven't died yet. Same with Buckbeak. The use of the Time Turner doesn't alter history, it merely explains how and why history played out the way it did. In my other post, I suggest looking at this from Dumbledore's perspective. He knows Buckbeak wasn't executed. He knows Buckbeak is gone, but he doesn't know how or why Buckbeak is gone. But, if Buckbeak can be found, he can use Buckbeak to save Sirius. No history is altered at any time. Sirius has not been kissed yet, and Buckbeak has already escaped. So, why not use that to his, Dumbledore's, advantage. Send Harry and Hermione back to capture Buckbeak when he escapes and take him up to save Sirius. That's Dumbledore's plan. In his mind, Buckbeak is clearly available, no history has to be changed. Dumbledore doesn't know until much much later that it was in fact Harry and Hermione who HELPED Buckbeak escape. Everyone but McNair thinks that Buckbeak pulled the knot in the ropes apart and walked or flew away. McNair thinks that someone may have helped Buckbeak, but has no proof; it's just a suspicion. If we are at the point in the future where we know Cedic has been killed; history has been written, and we can't go back and change it without potential disasterous temporal complications. Now someone could have gone back in time before Cedric died and did something to save him. But why would they go back in time and randomly conk Cedric on the head to keep him from the tournement? How would they have know it was Cedric who was going to die and not Harry or Krum? And, wouldn't the tournement administrator wonder what happened to Cedric and go looking for him? Wouldn't they suspect foul play? Wouldn't they make sure that issue was resolved before they continued with the tournement, thereby placing Cedric back in the tournement and getting him killed? And, if they conk Cedric on the head, could that have changed the outcome at the graveyard and resulted in Harry being killed? Changing history is nasty complicated business best left to the powers of heaven and earth, and the twisted hand of fate. The number one rule of time travel is that you can't alter history, and Dumbledore/Harry/Hermione obeyed that rule. They didn't change anything in the past. Now that we've reach the future and know what they did, we have an explaination of why the past occurred the way it did, but no events were truly altered. Just some more thoughts. Unfortunely, new post are coming faster than I can type. bboy_mn From the.gremlin at verizon.net Sun Jan 5 02:05:26 2003 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 20:05:26 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry dying Message-ID: <20030105020526.VNXG7656.out002.verizon.net@[127.0.0.1]> No: HPFGUIDX 49212 Laura wrote: "Yes, it clearly IMPLIES that. *evil grin* Voldemort may have left Quirrell for dead...but does that mean that he necessarily died? I don't really believe that he somehow got up and walked away, I mean how could he have managed that without anyone noticing? But then, Crouch Jr impersonated Moody (a good friend of Dumbledore's) for a year...so although I find it unlikely that Quirrell is still out there, I would definitely not rule out the possibility. Look what happened last time we assumed someone was dead *coughPettigrewcough*" Well, the text reads "The servant died when I left his body." That doesn't really give room for speculation. it *implies* nothing. But it *says* Quirrel died. Not 'I think he died' or 'he may have died', but 'he died.' I think DD would have noticed if Quirrel wasn't there, or if he just got up and walked away. In fact (no book), didn't he have to pull Harry off of Quirrel? Quirrel wasn't in the hospital wing, so we know he died. Which brings me to another question: did V-Mort leave before or after DD got there? If DD had to pull Harry off of Quirrel, then where was V-Mort at this time? Is this an obvious question, and I just don't know the answer because I don't have the book and I haven't read PS/SS in awhile? -Acire, who is now late for appt. with friend. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rvotaw at i-55.com Sun Jan 5 03:35:57 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 21:35:57 -0600 Subject: Voldemort and Elixir Message-ID: <001b01c2b46b$8fe36520$ac9fcdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 49213 I've been pondering lately just what the Elixir of Life can do. You may recall the theory that Harry will die (but not be completely dead, however you say that) and will be brought back with the last drops of the Elixir of Life. No real canon to support that, except that there's so much we don't know at all about the Elixir (and the stone, for that matter). But looking back at Voldemort's quest for the stone and Elixir, how exactly did he plan to get his body back with Elixir? I'm sure someone's produced theories on this, just that I can't remember them. At the fartherest stretch of my imagination, he'd need a body of some sort to drink it. I suppose Quirrell was going to do that. But how would that help Voldemort? Wouldn't that just help Quirrell? Is Voldemort's body out there somewhere? Or was it destroyed with the rebounded curse? I know it said he was ripped from his body. And Sirius said something about getting to the house and seeing the bodies, which could be just the two (Lily and James) or more. Since I've got myself very confused on the whole issue, anybody have an idea? (I know it's all fantasy anyway, really I do. :) But I'm still curious.) Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From urbana at charter.net Sun Jan 5 04:44:09 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne ) Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 04:44:09 -0000 Subject: /empathy/ In-Reply-To: <12b.1f2cc455.2b488964@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49214 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jodel at a... wrote: > > I'm pretty sure that Harry had it worse. The Dursleys didn't *just* > emotionally torment him: they skimped on his food and clothing, he couldn't > have had much of a bed in his cupboard, if the parents didn't physically > chastise him, Dudley did -- whatever horrors early twentieth century > orphanages are blamed for, the Dursleys tried to provide the same.<< Yes, yes, of course. I'm suffering from some "Movie Contamination" since I've seen TMTMNBN(1) more recently than I've read PS/SS. The Dursleys in PS/SS were even meaner than they were portrayed in TMTMNBN (1). > The real difference is that Harry, unlike Tom, was not thrust into this kind > of hostile environment from birth. He may have no consious memory of it, but > he got the advantage of having had 15 months as a loved and wanted child, and > acto everything I've ever read on the subject, that is likely to make a big > difference on the development of the "self". Tom never knew anything but > hostility, indifference and cool charity. IMO this hits the nail on the head. TMR has a very narcissistic, manipulative and obviously pathological personality. OTOH while Harry's self-confidence has been tarnished somewhat from having been abused by the Dursleys, deep down he was truly *loved* for those 15 months, and that love stayed with him and helped to form the unshakeable essence of his character, his, well, Harry-ness. Anne U (of the "Harry *is* special, for many reasons" crowd...does that have an acronym??) From annemehr at yahoo.com Sun Jan 5 05:54:37 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr ) Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 05:54:37 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and Elixir In-Reply-To: <001b01c2b46b$8fe36520$ac9fcdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49215 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" wrote: But looking back at Voldemort's quest for the stone and Elixir, how exactly did he plan to get his body back with Elixir? I'm sure someone's produced theories on this, just that I can't remember them. At the fartherest stretch of my imagination, he'd need a body of some sort to drink it. I suppose Quirrell was going to do that. But how would that help Voldemort? Wouldn't that just help Quirrell? Is Voldemort's body out there somewhere? Or was it destroyed with the rebounded curse? I know it said he was ripped from his body. And Sirius said something about getting to the house and seeing the bodies, which could be just the two (Lily and James) or more. > > Since I've got myself very confused on the whole issue, anybody have an idea? (I know it's all fantasy anyway, really I do. :) But I'm still curious.) > > Richelle I can think of two possibilities. Probably the easiest, if it would work, is that Voldemort would just have Quirrell drink the elixer, as you suggested. I do think this would be all Voldemort would need because he is far stronger as an entity than Quirrell is, and would *eventually* be able to take over full control of "their" body (though it's true he doesn't seem to have it now). Voldemort's possession of Quirrell is shortening the life of Quirrell's body already, and Quirrell has been drinking unicorn blood to survive. The elixer will make the body immortal for Voldemort to command. It also gives him plenty of time and opportunity to arrange to have a different body instead if he wishes. Once Quirrell's body stops drinking elixer, if Voldemort ever decides to leave it, it will eventually die. The second possibility is more uncertain to me. In this case, Quirrell's body never drinks elixer. Once in possession of the stone and making elixer of life, Voldemort may be able to have Quirrell make an UglyBaby!body for him as Wormtail ended up doing, which could then be fed elixer. Either the elixer itself would improve this weak body, or Voldemort would be able to use some other magic to improve it later -- at least it would be immortal. HOWEVER, this method would only work if the new body could be made external to Quirrell!Mort and fed elixer *before* Voldemort leaves Quirrell's body, because Quirrell is going to die the moment Voldemort leaves him. If Voldemort had to leave Quirrell and become a plain spirit to have this body built *around* him, then obviously it wouldn't work since there could then be no Quirrell to do the work. The first alternative is much simpler. Annemehr From bloubet at incanmonkey.com Sun Jan 5 08:45:16 2003 From: bloubet at incanmonkey.com (bloubet at incanmonkey.com) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 01:45:16 -0700 (MST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Phoenix!Harry; Heirs of Gryffindor In-Reply-To: <1041684215.3711.25275.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <1041756314.48839@incanmonkey.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49216 Don't mind me -- I'm just free-associating. Phoenix: Tremendously loyal, able to carry heavy burdens, healing tears. Harry: Tremendously loyal, carrying a heavy "burden", eyes like Lily's? I wonder if Harry is going to prove to have healing powers related to those eyes of his. Or if the world will only be healed when Harry can finally break down and cry... In reading the old archives (and boy, are there a lot of them ), I came across an idea I haven't seen bandied about here lately. Sometime in the past, Trelawney made one good prediction. It's been speculated (and I tend to agree) that the prediction had something to do with Harry, and that the prediction may be what triggered Voldemort to try to kill the Potters. It also seems a bit confusing that LV killed James and tried to kill Harry, but gave Lily a chance to get away. What if the prediction involves the heirs of Gryffindor destroying the Slytherin line? If I were Voldemort, I'd want to make sure that anyone of that direct line were dead -- hence, the need to kill James and Harry, but not Lily (making another assumption, of course, that James and Harry are the heirs of Gryffindor). Another possibility is that no one line can gain control of the WW until the other lines are destroyed. We haven't heard anything about Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws. If those lines are already gone, LV has a chance to take over if he can just get rid of those pesky Gryffindors... In my mind, this also argues effectively for trying to keep BOTH James and Harry alive, with the hope that at least one will make it through to fulfill the prophecy. Harry is protected by "ancient magic". It makes sense to me that one way to protect James is to hide him -- and this is why the "Lupin is James" theory is attractive to me. I also like the theory that Harry was protected by a spell that, in a way, reversed the Avada Kedavra, absorbing some of LV's lifeforce and abilities rather than releasing Harry's lifeforce to LV. This combination of LV (Slytherin) and Harry (Gryffindor), like the combination of mercury and sulphur, has forged Harry into a tool. (Yep, I think I'm advocating Stoned!Harry here, yes?) A tool for what, I'm not sure, but I'd not be surprised if it involved eternal life and/or turning "lead" to "gold" (evil to good?). The only thing that worries me about this is that if Harry is the key to eternal life for LV, the only way to stop LV may be to destroy Harry. Someone convince me I'm wrong, OK? (On the other hand, I do think there's something about using Harry's blood in the revivification ritual that has screwed LV 6 ways from Sunday, but I don't know why...) (By the way, I'm firmly in the camp believing that Lucius dear is keeping the Longbottoms under wraps at St. Mungo's for a reason. And I think Fudge may be in on it. Is that "madwoman in the attic" position still open? ) bel From enchanted at pacbell.net Sun Jan 5 07:59:16 2003 From: enchanted at pacbell.net (Enchanted) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 23:59:16 -0800 Subject: Spoiler in book 1? Message-ID: <00d701c2b490$73a15b40$3b0afea9@family> No: HPFGUIDX 49217 I'm off for a few more days so I thought I'd pick up book 1 since it has been ages since I read the first book in the series. I have found a few interesting points, most of them have been discussed online, but one point hasn't as far as I can recall. On Harry's first night at Hogwarts he has a dream that he's wearing Quirrell's turban and it's telling him that he "should transfer to Slytherin at once, because it is your destiny to be in Slytherin." When Harry tells the turban that he doesn't want to be in Slytherin, it gets heavier and heavier. He sees Malfoy and Snape in his dream and they are both laughing at him as the turban gets tighter and heavier and very painful. This made me pause and wonder exactly what does this mean? If I didn't know that Voldemort is living in Quirrell's body and his face is visible under the turban I wouldn't have made anything of this, as I did not make anything of it the first time I read the book, but this puts a strange twist in the story now, because I know exactly what is under Quirrell's turban. "Enchanted" From gandharvika at hotmail.com Sun Jan 5 12:58:44 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 12:58:44 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Parting Of Ways Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49218 Parting Of Ways (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Fixing A Hole_ by the Beatles) Midi=Here: http://wsp3.wspice.com/~dpannell/beatles/Welcome.html McGonagall: They've sucked out the soul of Barty Crouch Junior Which keeps him now from talking The Dementors... Snape: When we informed Fudge about this evening's events He felt that he was in danger He insisted... Fudge: But it really doesn't matter if he's gone, alright? Everything's alright, there's nothing wrong By all accounts, he is no loss, a lunatic, a real mess Thought he was working for You-Know-Who Dumbledore: I'm telling you now, it was Voldemort He's been returned to his body to his full strength Fudge: But you really cannot mean it He cannot be back, he just cannot be back Preposterous You cannot mean that you believe that You-Know-Who has now returned Taking the word of a madman Dumbledore: I'm looking at you in a different light If you refuse to accept the truth Then we must part A parting of ways where I'll do what is right To keep Voldemort from winning That's where I stand -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8 is here: Try it free* for 2 months http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Sun Jan 5 13:10:02 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana ) Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 13:10:02 -0000 Subject: Harry's scar hurting around Voldemort Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49219 I've been thinking about what must inevitably be several future battles between Harry and Voldemort in the upcoming books 5, 6 and 7. At the end of GoF, Harry's scar hurts more than ever before, and it is mentioned several times and actually debilitates Harry a couple times, especially when Voldemort makes his first appearance at the graveyard. Here are the mentions, verbatim, from near the end of GoF: "And then, without warning, Harry's scar exploded with pain. It was agony such as he had never felt in all his life; his wand slipped from his fingers has he put his hands over his face; his knees buckled; he was on the ground and he could see nothing at all; his head was about to split open." "...the pain in his scar reached such a pitch that he retched, and then it diminished;..." "Let it drown. Harry thought, his scar burning almost past endurance, please...let it drown..." [After Voldemort touched the Death Mark on Pettigrew's arm] " The scar on Harry's forehead seared with a sharp pain again..." " 'You know, of course, that they have called this boy my downfall?' Voldemort said softly, his red eyes upon Harry, whose scar began to burn so fiercely that he almost screamed in agony." "Harry felt the tip of the long white finger touch him, and thought his head would burst with the pain." [While Voldemort is using the Cruciatus Curse on Harry] "It was pain beyond anything Harry has ever experienced; his very bones were on fire; his head was surely splitting along his scar; his eyes were rolling madly in his head; he wanted it to end...to black out...to die..." [Poor Harry gets hit with the Cruciatus Curse again] "The pain was so intense, so all-consuming, that he no longer knew where he was...White-hot knives were piercing every inch of his skin, his head was surely going to burst with pain, he was screaming more loudly than he'd ever screamed in his life -" [Harry's just used the Tri-Wizard Cup portkey to return to Hogwarts] "...and all the while, his scar burned dully on his forehead..." [Dumbledore has lifted Harry to his feet] "...Harry swayed. His head was pounding." " 'Dumbledore said stay,' said Harry thickly, the pounding in his scar making him feel as though he was about to throw up; his vision was blurring worse than ever." Harry also feels lots of aches and pains as a direct result of the Cruciatus Curse being used on him twice, but I'm referencing specific mentions of his scar hurting. The pain his scar inflicts upon him in Voldemort's presence is a liability to Harry in whatever future battles he may face with Voldemort. He will be at a distinct disadvantage if he's brought to his knees by severe pain from his scar the first minute or two when in the presence of Voldemort. Obviously, Harry eventually works through the pain enough while Voldemort is being reborn and then talks to the Death Eaters to be cognizant of what is going on around him, even being able to remember what is happening so he can tell Dumbledore and Sirius about it later. And of course, he withstands the scar pain while dueling Voldemort, even proving himself the stronger wizard by forcing Voldemort's wand to regurgitate spells. Will Harry eventually be able to withstand the scar pain without buckling, throwing up or nearly losing conciousness in future face- to-face meetings with Voldemort? I think and hope he will, but I'm wondering how this will be accomplished. A spell? Just practicing mind over matter, like a wizard form of meditation? A potion? The quotes above were taken in order from the book, so Voldemort having some of Harry's blood inside him as part of the ritual to bring him back didn't dimish the pain Harry feels in his scar. Does Harry's presence inflict anything onto Voldemort [besides livid hatred, I mean]? We've seen no evidence of Voldemort suffering so much as a hang-nail because of Harry's presence, so I doubt it. But still, it would be a nice twist if Voldemort suddenly got some of that back tenfold. Harry is obviously made of very sturdy stuff and is *very* special indeed because he withstood all that pain and successfully faced death, fought back and won at the tender age of 14. Now I'm wondering why Harry is able to withstand that much pain. The Harry as heir of Gryffindor theory springs to mind, but is there something else in Harry's bloodline that could help explain this? If it's only because Harry is very strong-willed, noble and brave, that's okay, I guess, but I wonder... Diana From davlr8 at earthlink.net Sun Jan 5 13:45:39 2003 From: davlr8 at earthlink.net (davrusilla ) Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 13:45:39 -0000 Subject: Spoiler in book 1? In-Reply-To: <00d701c2b490$73a15b40$3b0afea9@family> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49220 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Enchanted" wrote: >snip > > On Harry's first night at Hogwarts he has a dream that he's wearing > Quirrell's turban and it's telling him that he "should transfer to Slytherin > at once, because it is your destiny to be in Slytherin." > When Harry tells the turban that he doesn't want to be in Slytherin, it gets > heavier and heavier. He sees Malfoy and Snape in his dream and they are both > laughing at him as the turban gets tighter and heavier and very painful. > This made me pause and wonder exactly what does this mean? I think all of Harry's dreams are very significant, and this first one tells us about Harry's reaction to the sorting ceremony, and some of what's to come in the first book. The dream replaces the Sorting Hat, which Harry had worn earlier that evening, with Prof. Quirrel's turban. The dream turban is more adamant about Harry belonging in Sytherin, while in the actual ceremony, the Sorting Hat only suggests that "Slytherin will help you on your way to greatness." Though he has been placed in Gryffindor, Harry is greatly troubled. The dream echoes and accentuates his inner conflict about belonging in Gryffindor or Slytherin, a theme that is introduced during the sorting ceremony, later addressed in COS (Harry is rumored to be the Heir of Slytherin among other examples), and one that I believe will become significant again somewhere in books 5-7. "...and there was Malfoy, laughing at him as he struggled with it-then Malfoy turned into the hook-nosed teacher, Snape, whose laugh became high and cold-there was a burst of green light and Harry woke, sweating and shaking." Though he has just encountered both Malfoy and Professor Snape of Slytherin House, he has found them both to be unpleasant and threatening. At this point in PS/SS, Harry thinks that his scar hurt when Snape looked at him during the welcoming feast. In the dream when Snape's laugh turns "high and cold," and there's a flash of green light, he's remembering the night LV killed his parents, and somehow connecting Snape with LV. Here is the beginning of his deep mistrust of Snape, which will prove to be unfounded. (Though as Quirrel said, "Yes, Severus does seem the type, doesn't he?") It may also show that while Harry's conscious mind does not register anything threatening about Quirrel or his turban his dreaming mind does. I have the sense that Harry's other dreams are often prophetic but I don't have any examples handy. The book then tells us: "He rolled over and fell asleep again, and when he woke next day, he didn't remember the dream at all." So in this instance, the prophecy was ineffectual. It does give the reader a clue about the revelation of the Harry/QuirrelMort confrontation scene if we were wise enough to catch it. *grins* I certainly didn't on the first reading. Davrusilla From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Sun Jan 5 14:09:46 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica ) Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 14:09:46 -0000 Subject: Spoiler in book 1? In-Reply-To: <00d701c2b490$73a15b40$3b0afea9@family> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49221 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Enchanted" wrote: > I'm off for a few more days so I thought I'd pick up book 1 since it has > been ages since I read the first book in the series. I have found a few > interesting points, most of them have been discussed online, but one point > hasn't as far as I can recall. > > On Harry's first night at Hogwarts he has a dream that he's wearing > Quirrell's turban and it's telling him that he "should transfer to Slytherin > at once, because it is your destiny to be in Slytherin." > When Harry tells the turban that he doesn't want to be in Slytherin, it gets > heavier and heavier. He sees Malfoy and Snape in his dream and they are both > laughing at him as the turban gets tighter and heavier and very painful. > This made me pause and wonder exactly what does this mean? If I didn't know > that Voldemort is living in Quirrell's body and his face is visible under > the turban I wouldn't have made anything of this, as I did not make anything > of it the first time I read the book, but this puts a strange twist in the > story now, because I know exactly what is under Quirrell's turban. > I don't think it is a spoiler so much as foreshadowing. Harry doesn't have any pain associated with his scar before arriving at Hogwarts (at least that's my recollection, I could be wrong :D ). It's during Harry's first start-of-term feast that he feels pain: "It happened very suddenly. The hooked nose teacher looked past Quirrell's turban straight into Harry's eyes - and a sharp, hot pain shot across the scar on Harry's forehead" In reading this I actually thought that it *was* Snape inflicting the 'headache' on Harry (I'm a bit slow on the uptack :D) and it wasn't until later (hearing JKR explain it during an interview) that I was made aware that it was Voldemort inflicting the headache (Quirrell had his back to Harry while he was talking to Snape so that Voldemort was facing Harry ...) Ahh, misdirection ;) ~Erica From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Jan 5 17:15:23 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 17:15:23 -0000 Subject: JKR's quote about upcoming deaths/ Possible Harry 'death' scenario In-Reply-To: <00ff01c2b418$3e84caa0$bb9ecdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49222 "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > > There's also the Elixir of Life. Sure, we don't know it can bring back the dead. But then we don't know much about it at all. Still, for the stone playing such an important role in the first book, it sure did disappear quickly. Yes, Dumbledore said it was destroyed. No reason not to believe Dumbledore. There's also no reason to think there wasn't at least a little Elixir stored up someplace. I won't jump into the theory of baby Harry and Elixir at the moment, though. Yet as someone pointed out earlier, there's dead, and then there's dead. Perhaps Harry could be "dead" long enough to weaken Voldemort to the point of destruction (or for him to let down his guard). Then with the Elixir dripping into his mouth, trickling down his throat, he lives. Yes, it's far out, but hey, this is fantasy after all. > > Richelle bboy_mn speculates: A long time ago,... well relative the the volume of post in this group, a long time ago when we discussed dead and resurection before. My theory (more like pure speculation) was that Dumbledore will give Harry the Elixer without Harry knowing it, just as an added measure of protection. I can see a 'Highlander' like scene occurring. If you've seen the movie or TV show about the Highlanders, who are a group of immortals, who for some reason go around choppin off each others heads. When they are killed, they actually die. That is, their body responds to the fatal trama, but in a matter of a minute or two, their immortality kicks in and they suddenly jump back to life; true death and true resurection. If something similar occurred with the Elixer, then for a minute or so, Harry would truly be dead, during which time (theoretically) Voldemort becomes vulnerable to death. Someone besides Harry kills him (Ron [my hero], Hermione, Dumbledore, Snape? [wouldn't that be a twist], Dobby, Sirius), then Harry groans loudly and comes back to life, at which time, Dumbledore explains to him about having given him the Elixer of Life. Now there is a plot with an amazing number of twists and turns. Just a thought. bboy_mn From lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com Sun Jan 5 17:54:55 2003 From: lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com (lindseyharrisst ) Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 17:54:55 -0000 Subject: Muggle-borns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49223 This question may have come up before, but I have not read it in any recent posts. This post is a bit technical but bear with me:)! I was wondering about what constitutes a muggle born and a half blood. I know that JK tends to use it to mean that you are a child of a)2 muggles or b)one muggle and one wizard, but I was thinking about Lily and Hermione and Harry , in terms of their "racial purity". It would seem that Haryy can be a pure blood, even though his mother was muggle born and racially the same as Hermione, who gets abuse for being a mudblood. Harry therefore has, if one goes back to his grandparents generation, 50% wizard blood (from James's parents) and 50% muggle blood. He is a 1st generation pureblood but a second generation half blood. I wondered if Lucius and his death eater cronies had particular philosophies or policies about this sort of thing, like the Nazi's did with their rule that 1/8 jewish blood made someone "untermenschen". I know this is unanswerable in canon, but I just wondered if anyone had any personal theories? Perhaps it would be the case that, as wiht the Nazis, the decision is mainly to do with a)the physical impossibility of culling half the population and still having a functioning society with eg. a big enough work force and b)the fact that if you only had 1 jewish grandparent and nothing else, you would probably not have enough jewish infulence on you to make you act "wrong" or look "wrong" for their ideals. Does it just depend on whether they *know* about a person's history and is n't very scientific at all. Just picking off anyone who wears muggle trainers. Snapesangel xxx ps I don't want to reinforce any prejudice or revive unpleasant memories of antisematism anyone may have. I was only raising a thought and won't insult anyone's intelligence with a " remember Nazis were evil" discliamer at th end. love to all :) From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 5 18:29:05 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura ) Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 18:29:05 -0000 Subject: Spoiler in book 1? In-Reply-To: <00d701c2b490$73a15b40$3b0afea9@family> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49224 "Enchanted" wrote: > > > On Harry's first night at Hogwarts he has a dream This made me pause and wonder exactly what does this mean? If I didn't know that Voldemort is living in Quirrell's body and his face is visible under the turban I wouldn't have made anything of this, as I did not make anything of it the first time I read the book, but this puts a strange twist in the story now, because I know exactly what is under Quirrell's turban. > > > Directly from the source (US paperback p 130): "Perhaps Harry had eaten a bit too much, because he had a very strange dream. He was wearing Professor Quirrell's turban, which kept talking to him, telling him he must transfer to Slytherin at once, because it was his destiny. Harry told the turban he didn't want to be in Slytherin; it got heavier and heavier; he tried to pull it off but it tightened painfully- and there was Malfoy, laughing at him as he struggled with it- then Malfoy turned into the hook-nosed teacher Snape, whose laugh became high and cold- there was a burst of green light and Harry woke, sweating and shaking. He rolled over and fell asleep again, and when he woke the next day, he didn't remember the dream at all." There are a few ideas worth mentioning related to this dream: 1) I hate taking other people's ideas and not remembering where they came from...there was a fanfic posted awhile back that suggested that Voldemort somehow "forced" the dream on Harry, trying to persuade him to take up the Dark Side. This is supported by Quirrel!Mort trying to persude Harry to join him with the whole "there is no good or evil, only power and those too weak too seek it" speech- think Spiderman. (This is a great idea, kudos to whoever came up with it, but I seriously doubt that there were no clues/foreshadowing involved in the dream...) 2) This also brings up the conflict within Harry which is developed in CoS regarding which house he belongs in - a nice little set-up for Dumbledore's "choices over abilities" moral. 3) Possible foreshadowing for "Heir of Slytherin" or "Harry related to Voldemort" thoery? 4) Call this nit-picking if you will, but I find the use of the specific word "destiny" interesting- even if only because of so many theories surrounding prophecies. It is Harry's "destiny" to belong in Slytherin. This could be taken in many levels- Slytherin's bloodline, marriage into Slytherin's bloodline?, belonging in the House ( a boring litte "Harry should be more ambitious" idea), Harry should/will be more interested/involved with the Dark Arts, Harry should/will join the Dark Side....Trelewany's first prediction theories, anyone? 5) Ah yes, then we have Malfoy laughing at him as he struggles... (struggles under the power of the Dark Lord? hmm...) This could be because of Ron's info about the Malfoys and Slytherin, an echo of Harry's dislike/mistrust of Malfoy, or even intutive feelings about Malfoy's allegiances. 6) NOW we get to the good part- Snape. =) As this is Harry's dream, it might just be his immediate mistrust/dislike of Snape. After all, Harry does think the pain in his scar is because of Snape (he doesn't know what's under Quirrell's turban). Perhaps it is just dislike for Snape, or perhaps it is intutive feelings about how Snape was (is??) a DE. 7) Now we get to the even better part- the cold, high laugh and burst of green light...hmm, where else have we seen THIS? I would say that Snape laughing in the way that Harry remembers Voldemort laughing is probably just a show of Harry's immediate feelings about Snape. So I won't go as far as to suggest that Snape killed the Potters, after all, Voldemort takes full credit for that. (Imperio theories, anyone? *evil grin*) But this raises an interesting question- does Harry connect Snape and the green light simply because his subconcious knows this green light is connected to his parent's death and therefore Voldemort, and Harry's immediate reaction to Snape is that he is evil and therefore also connected with Voldemort? Or was Harry remembering Snape along with that fateful night because Snape really WAS there? (apologies for the somewhat long post) -Laura another young one =) From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sun Jan 5 18:40:35 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:40:35 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Spoiler in book 1? Message-ID: <77.66407d8.2b49d623@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49225 Laura said: > Voldemort somehow "forced" the dream on Harry, trying to persuade him > to take up the Dark Side. This is supported by Quirrel!Mort trying > to persude Harry to join him with the whole "there is no good or > evil, only power and those too weak too seek it" speech I respond: I'd just like to point out that the whole "Join me" thing was only in the movie. Quirrell!Mort wanted to kill Harry, remember? I still don't have my blasted book, but I do remember Quirrell saying that he was going to kill Harry after he got the stone. Voldemort seemed more supportive of THAT idea. As for the dream..well, as someone said already it was more foreshadowing than a spoiler. I'm sorry I don't have more to say on it right now, but the points I would like to make have already been made ^^; ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 5 18:50:19 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura ) Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 18:50:19 -0000 Subject: Spoiler in book 1? In-Reply-To: <77.66407d8.2b49d623@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49226 I said: > > > Voldemort somehow "forced" the dream on Harry, trying to persuade him to take up the Dark Side. This is supported by Quirrel!Mort trying to persude Harry to join him with the whole "there is no good or evil, only power and those too weak too seek it" speech > > > IAmLordCassandra wrote: > > > I'd just like to point out that the whole "Join me" thing was only in the movie. Quirrell!Mort wanted to kill Harry, remember? I still don't have my blasted book, but I do remember Quirrell saying that he was going to kill Harry after he got the stone. Voldemort seemed more supportive of THAT idea. > > > *Laura picks up the book and begins to read "The Man With Two Faces"* *Laura suddenly bursts into tears* Well, not really. *groan* Stupid movie contamination. *horribly ashamed and embarassed* Oops, my apologies. Just ignore that part of the post, ok? -Laura From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sun Jan 5 19:11:58 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 14:11:58 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Spoiler in book 1? Message-ID: <1a5.e8bd589.2b49dd7e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49227 In a message dated 1/5/2003 1:40:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, IAmLordCassandra writes: > I'm sorry I don't have more to say on it right now, but the points I would > like to make have already been made ^^; After skimming through a book I had on dream interpetation, I came across a couple of things that may be of interest. 1. The colour purple-meaning guidance/the dreamers reaction to the dream. Quirrell's turban was purple and it was telling him..guiding him...to transfer to Slytherin, then became heavy when Harry refused (because the his uncertainty was become a 'weighty' problem?) 2. Snake-Council. Snape/Draco/Voldemort are all Slytherins. The Slytherin symbol is the serphant. It also ties in with the whole 'transfer to Slytherin' theme. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 5 19:16:20 2003 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82 ) Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 19:16:20 -0000 Subject: Colonel Fubster Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49228 Hi - I've been reading POA again! (It's my favourite so I've read it the most times out of all of the books) and Chapter 2 always intrigues me. What intrigues me most is the character Colonel Fubster. He's mention 4 times in this chapter without even being physically there: (Marge about her dogs) "Oh I've got Colonel Fubster managing them" (Later in the same conversation) "He's retired now, good for him to have something to do. But I couldn't leave poor old ripper. He pines if he's away from me." ... Or Colonel Fubster hates old Ripper too :-) (After the wine glass shatters) "'Not to worry ' grunted Aunt Marge, mopping her face with her napkin. 'Must have squeezed it too hard. Did the same thing at Colonel Fubster's the other day. No need to fuss, Petunia, I have a very firm grip...'" This sentence has got me thinking I know it has been discussed that Harry might not have caused the glass to shatter but I take it he did based mainly on the following quote: "It had been a long time since he'd lost control and made something explode." Now if magic made Marge's glass shatter at the Dursley's, could magic have made it explode at Colonel Fubster's? Could Marge have opened her mouth and said something wrong and upset Fubster? Is it possible that he's a wizard and that he made her glass shatter on that occasion? (The last mention of Fubster before Marge is blown up) " You get that with dogs. I had Colonel Fubster drown one last year. Ratty little thing it was. Weak. Underbread." I like to think that Fubster just told Marge he drowned it and the poor little tyke is still alive ;-) but that's beside the point!! So in one chapter and without him actually being present we learn quite a lot about Fubster, we know; * He's retired. * He lives near Aunt Marge (who lives in the country). * He looks after Marge's dog (apart from Ripper) so he must be reasonably good with dogs. * Aunt Marge asked him to drown one of her pups. * Marge goes to visit him. So for a character we've never met in 'the flesh' we know he quite well - in fact there have probably been characters that we have met in the flesh that we know less about! I just wonder if will meet Colonel Fubster in the future ? and could he be a wizard? - Lets just hope that this doesn't mean that will meet Marge again too ;-) Michelle From rvotaw at i-55.com Sun Jan 5 19:18:01 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:18:01 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Phoenix!Harry;/ Harry's scar hurting around Voldemort/ Spoiler in book 1? References: <1041756314.48839@incanmonkey.com> Message-ID: <00ae01c2b4ef$2f07f7f0$6aa1cdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 49229 bel writes: > Phoenix: Tremendously loyal, able to carry heavy burdens, healing tears. > > Harry: Tremendously loyal, carrying a heavy "burden", eyes like Lily's? > > I wonder if Harry is going to prove to have healing powers related to those > eyes of his. Or if the world will only be healed when Harry can finally break > down and cry... I personally subscribe to the theory that whatever magic is in Harry's eyes won't be released or stimulated until he has a nice long cry. That perhaps by fighting back tears so many times he has also pushed back a magical ability that is aching to get out. And when the emotional break happens it will release the magic hidden within. A focused unwanded magic? I don't know, but something in those eyes. Diana writes: > Will Harry eventually be able to withstand the scar pain without > buckling, throwing up or nearly losing conciousness in future face- > to-face meetings with Voldemort? I think and hope he will, but I'm He's just about got to overcome this, or else in their next meeting Voldemort walks up, Harry hits the ground in pain, Voldemort AK's him, the end. I think not. So something definitely has to give. Can he be taught to block this? A defense to put up? Something? Anything? For that matter, how many people actually know just how badly Harry's scar hurts around Voldemort? The only times he's told people about it were when it was hurting after dreams and such, right? Then it was more of an ache. Not the "hit the ground throwing up" kind of pain that he experienced when facing Voldemort. And if he doesn't tell someone about this, will they know? Dumbledore, of course, seems to know things without being told. But if no one knows how helpless Harry gets (even if for just a moment) from the pain, they can't help him learn to manage it more quickly. Diana again: > Now I'm wondering why Harry is able to withstand that much pain. > The Harry as heir of Gryffindor theory springs to mind, but is there > something else in Harry's bloodline that could help explain this? > If it's only because Harry is very strong-willed, noble and brave, > that's okay, I guess, but I wonder... That's true as well. How does he manage? After all, in CoS he passed out from a broken arm. Broken arms hurt, yes. But I would imagine from the description of that pain in his scar it's a lot worse. So basically, umm, I don' t know! Laura writes: > So I won't go as far as to suggest that Snape killed the > Potters, after all, Voldemort takes full credit for that. (Imperio > theories, anyone? *evil grin*) But this raises an interesting > question- does Harry connect Snape and the green light simply because > his subconcious knows this green light is connected to his parent's > death and therefore Voldemort, and Harry's immediate reaction to > Snape is that he is evil and therefore also connected with > Voldemort? Or was Harry remembering Snape along with that fateful > night because Snape really WAS there? I've often thought that there was more to Snape's life debt than met the eye. But never connected this dream to Snape possibly being present when the Potters died. Theoretically, Snape could've told Dumbledore that Voldemort was going after the Potters. Then still with Voldemort, been standing in the shadows, unable (or unwilling?) to stop Voldemort from killing them. We know James saved Snape's life. But what if Snape was present when James died and didn't (couldn't?) save him? Snape has saved Harry's neck how many times now? Isn't that life debt repaid? Perhaps not, if he had the chance to save James and didn't or couldn't. Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dorigen at hotmail.com Sun Jan 5 19:27:49 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 19:27:49 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Colonel Fubster Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49230 >Hi - I've been reading POA again! (It's my favourite so I've read it >the most times out of all of the books) and Chapter 2 always >intrigues me. What intrigues me most is the character Colonel >Fubster. Interesting. I just assumed he was Marge's boyfriend. Maybe he's another of the wizards hanging around on the perimeter of the Dursley family, watching Harry. Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From amani at charter.net Sun Jan 5 19:00:39 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 14:00:39 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Spoiler in book 1? References: <77.66407d8.2b49d623@aol.com> Message-ID: <006b01c2b4ec$bd66aee0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49231 Laura said: > > Voldemort somehow "forced" the dream on Harry, trying to persuade him > > to take up the Dark Side. This is supported by Quirrel!Mort trying > > to persude Harry to join him with the whole "there is no good or > > evil, only power and those too weak too seek it" speech Cassie: >I'd just like to point out that the whole "Join me" thing was only in the >movie. Quirrell!Mort wanted to kill Harry, remember? I still don't have my >blasted book, but I do remember Quirrell saying that he was going to kill >Harry after he got the stone. Voldemort seemed more supportive of THAT idea. Me: >From SS, Paperback, Scholastic, pg. 294: "Don't be a fool, snarled the face [Voldemort]. "Better save your own life and join me...or you'll meet the same end as your parents..." So Voldemort seemed okay with the idea of Harry joining him. It's the kind of offer you get from many villains, anyway: join me or die. But, like Cassie said, /Quirrel/ did say he'd kill him. His good/evil/power speech was mostly just him telling how he met Voldemort and how Voldemort changed his views on everything. And Voldemort only mentioned Harry joining him the one time (I believe--I went through it kind of quickly). --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jmmears at comcast.net Sun Jan 5 20:37:22 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust ) Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 20:37:22 -0000 Subject: Harry's fate in book 5 & Amos Diggory In-Reply-To: <4d.29c747e7.2b475b9b@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49232 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, wynnde1 at a... wrote: > Originally, I was going to respond to this off-list to Jo Serenadust, as this > is mostly just a big "me too" post, agreeing with the many fantastic points > she made as to whether or not Fudge could blame (or frame) Harry for Cedric's > death. ::Blushing furiously:: Wow, thanks Wendy! I'm sorry for the delayed response, but I'm so used to my posts sinking like stones and not inspiring any comments, that I didn't notice that you had actually written some very nice and well-thought out ones. Wendy wrote: > > Now me: > Yes, yes, yes and YES! I think you are absolutely spot-on with this. In fact, > I'm rather annoyed with myself that I didn't think of it. I dislike and > mistrust Diggory intensely, and have often thought that he could be > responsible for all sorts of blow-ups within what we think of as the "good > guys." I just never came up with this as one of the possibilities. Well, Amos hasn't been discussed much on this list but I must confess that I'm very interested in his future in the series. I'm positive that we haven't seen the last of him. Wendy again: > Although not mentioned as one of Dumbledore's "old crowd," I wouldn't be > surprised if he turns out to have been an auror in VW1, or actively involved > in some other way. And, if he was an auror or similar, I don't imagine he'd > have had any qualms at all about Crouch's decision to use the unforgiveables > against the Death Eaters. I do agree with you here, Wendy. He comes across as rather hard- nosed and seems to me to be the type who would gladly have gone along with Crouch's agenda. When they are all in the woods at the QWC, he is quite deferential to him, calling him "Mr. Crouch" rather than Barty. Wendy continued: That sort of thing strikes me as right up Diggory's > alley, actually. He's a bully, a hypocrite, dishonourable, and pompous. > At the end of GoF, I have always been suspicious of Diggory Sr.'s calm > attitude towards Harry, and I agree with you that Amos will want vengeance > for his son. Meaning, he wants someone to be *punished*, whether it's the > real perpetrator, or not. Well, I'd have to agree that Amos definitely has bullying tendencies, and is rather pompous as well. I didn't pick up on anything especially dishonorable or hypocritical about him as much as the fact that he's so besotted with Cedric and his accomplishments, that he's got a rather large blind spot where he's concerned. > > I don't like Diggory at all, actually, and (in a perverse sort of way) really > hope that we'll see more of him, because I'm sure he'll cause nothing but > trouble. And, in a departure from the many EverSoEvil theories which are > rampant around here (and in my own mind! ), It never occurs to me for a > second that Diggory could actually be Evil, in the sense of supporting > Voldemort. Nope, he's one of the "good guys," even though he goes around > acting like a jerk much of the time. Which makes it just that much more > interesting, don't you think? Absolutely, Wendy. I'm so glad that someone besides me thinks that Amos Diggory and his past and future role in the story will be significant. Yet, somehow I just can't bring myself to *really* dislike him. I know that he's given Harry a hard time, and will very likely give him worse in the future. I just can't help feeling so very sorry for him. After all, the last time we see him in GoF, he "sobbed through most of the interview." For all of his bluster, I imagine that his wife is the stronger of the two of them, and that he's so utterly destroyed by Cedric's death, that his future actions will be the result of a broken, irrational heart. Of course, that doesn't mean that they won't be terribly destructive, particularly to Harry. > Wendy > (Who would really like to thank Jo Serenadust for her thought- provoking post. > St. Mungo's, not Azkaban . . . YES! And who is now fantasizing about writing > a brilliant 9-part defamation of Diggory's character, but somehow doesn't > think she could manage to do it justice as Elkins did with Crouch Sr. ) Thank *you*, Wendy for your very thoughtful response. I'd absolutely love to see your 9-part Amos Diggory defamation post a la Elkins! I'm afraid that I'd have to play the part of Eileen in Diggory's defense as a tragic character, but I also worry that I couldn't meet her brilliant standard either. Still, I'm willing to have a go, if you are . Jo Serenadust, ever-so-grateful that at least one other person on the list finds Amos worthy of character analysis and future plot impact > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alicit at aol.com Sun Jan 5 20:45:25 2003 From: alicit at aol.com (alicit at aol.com) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 15:45:25 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: TBAY: A new room (was: MD and theories) Message-ID: <148.6d6aa7e.2b49f365@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49233 A crackle comes from the fireplace, and Scheherazade pokes her head in for a quick chat. > "Involuntary vow of silence I guess," Melody sniffed, "But I was > wondering why Mrs. Longbottum had to be insane in your theory? Why > must she also have the same fate?" > > "Well, that is why I was asking for a mast and sail. I don't really > know. Or rather, the canon is still vague on that part," Annemehr > frowned as she sat on her bed. > > "I guess most assume the DE's think Frank told his wife secrets and > things that could damage them, but that is not like spies or secret > agents to do that. They want to protect their family, right? So I > wonder why torture her in the first place on the off chance that she > would know something. That seems rather odd to me," Melody said > sliding her back down the doorframe so she could sit down comfortably. > > Annemehr let her eyes glaze over a bit. "Well they are DE's. They > *like* torturing people. "Well, dears," Annemehr and Melody whipped around to look at the uninvited party to the conversation, "I would think that, if the DE's could not get any information out of Frank by torturing him physically, that they would also torture his wife, to get him to confess... maybe, if he hadn't gone mad, they might have started in on dear little Neville..." Was that a FEATHERBOA peeking from the collor of Scheherazade's brand new silk shirt? No, it must have been a trick of the light -scheherazade [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Sun Jan 5 21:07:49 2003 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 21:07:49 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Colonel Fubster References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49234 Marge's Boyfriend? I hope not, that's an awful mental image for me, what would her boyfriend be like? But seriously, we're all picking up the tiniest bits of the books and examininly them for crumbs. Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sun Jan 5 21:12:21 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:12:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Symbolism of Lions/Griffins and Snakes (was: Spoiler in book 1?) In-Reply-To: <1a5.e8bd589.2b49dd7e@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030105211221.92151.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49235 IAmLordCassandra at aol.com wrote: 2. Snake-Council. Snape/Draco/Voldemort are all Slytherins. The Slytherin symbol is the serphant. It also ties in with the whole 'transfer to Slytherin' theme. Me: It might be worth noting that Harry has made a "friend" of sorts of a snake before ever arriving at Hogwarts. When he inadvertantly frees the snake at the zoo, it seems rather grateful (and Harry certainly seems to bear the snake no ill will, especially as it was probably very amusing to Harry to see how terrified of it Dudley was). I rather like the symbolism of the snake being the symbol of evil by dint of being the Slytherin symbol, but speaking with snakes (being able to communicate with evil) being a talent of Harry's. I also like that we know that Snape is a good guy, since that also brings in the abilities/choices issue and the question of whether a "snake" (real or symbolic) is inherently evil or its ACTIONS that are good or evil. While the lion (symbol of Gryffindor) traditionally was a killer of snakes (and griffins in particular are supposed to be the enemies of basilisks) I hope that JKR will eventually rise above some of the symbolic rhetoric she's woven into the text and show that all snakes/Slytherins are not destined for evil--just as we know, because of Peter Pettigrew, that all lions/Gryffindors are not necessarily good. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sun Jan 5 21:42:02 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 16:42:02 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Spoiler in book 1? Message-ID: <122.1ce7bf6d.2b4a00aa@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49236 In a message dated 1/5/2003 2:43:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, amani at charter.net writes: > Cassie: > > >I'd just like to point out that the whole "Join me" thing was only in the > >movie. Quirrell!Mort wanted to kill Harry, remember? I still don't have > my > >blasted book, but I do remember Quirrell saying that he was going to kill > >Harry after he got the stone. Voldemort seemed more supportive of THAT > idea. > > Taryn: > > From SS, Paperback, Scholastic, pg. 294: > > "Don't be a fool, snarled the face [Voldemort]. "Better save your own life > and join me...or you'll meet the same end as your parents..." > > So Voldemort seemed okay with the idea of Harry joining him. It's the kind > of offer you get from many villains, anyway: join me or die. But, like > Cassie said, /Quirrel/ did say he'd kill him. His good/evil/power speech > was mostly just him telling how he met Voldemort and how Voldemort changed > his views on everything. And Voldemort only mentioned Harry joining him the > one time (I believe--I went through it kind of quickly). Cassie: Grr....*whimpers* I really need my book. I forgot about that little line. I guess it was because it was said differently in the movie than in the book. Still though, I don't really think Voldemort wanted Harry to join him. He was just desperate to get the Stone. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kethlenda at yahoo.com Sun Jan 5 22:54:46 2003 From: kethlenda at yahoo.com (Kelly L. ) Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 22:54:46 -0000 Subject: Spoiler in book 1?/Quirrellmort/slow on the uptake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49237 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Erica < cymru1ca at y...>" wrote: In reading this I actually thought that it *was* Snape inflicting > the 'headache' on Harry (I'm a bit slow on the uptack :D) and it > wasn't until later (hearing JKR explain it during an interview) that > I was made aware that it was Voldemort inflicting the headache > (Quirrell had his back to Harry while he was talking to Snape so > that Voldemort was facing Harry ...) > Ahh, misdirection ;) > > ~Erica Talk about slow on the uptake--I had never thought of that myself! When I first read the book, I was thinking that Snape was the bad guy, like we were supposed to think. Once I knew some more about Snape's background, I decided he caused Harry scar-pain because of his past as a DE. It didn't quite make sense, but I couldn't think of anything else. But it makes PERFECT sense if the pain was caused by the back of Quirrell's head... Kelly L. From dorigen at hotmail.com Sun Jan 5 22:57:28 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 22:57:28 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Colonel Fubster Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49238 christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com said: >Marge's Boyfriend? I hope not, that's an awful mental image for me, what >would her boyfriend be like? I completely agree, but as we have all observed from real life, love is not only blind, but deaf, stupid, and without a sense of smell. (Don't ask.) I base my statement that Colonel Fubster might be Marge's boyfriend from the way she keeps peppering her conversation with references to him which, as has been pointed out, both reveal the fact that she knows him quite well (okay, he could be her best friend) and give us a surprising amount of information about him. Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM: Try the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From kethlenda at yahoo.com Sun Jan 5 23:00:29 2003 From: kethlenda at yahoo.com (Kelly L. ) Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 23:00:29 -0000 Subject: Harry/death/resurrection/Elixir In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49239 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve < bboy_mn at y...>" wrote: bboy_mn speculates: > > A long time ago,... well relative the the volume of post in this > group, a long time ago when we discussed dead and resurection before. > My theory (more like pure speculation) was that Dumbledore will give > Harry the Elixer without Harry knowing it, just as an added measure of > protection. There is also the possibility that phoenix tears are a major ingredient in making the Philosopher's/Sorcerer's Stone. After all, a phoenix has an eternal life in which is dies and resurrects itself, and we already know the tears are healing--it would be a natural choice for an ingredient in that substance. And Harry has already had some of it. Kelly L. From srsiriusblack at aol.com Sun Jan 5 23:16:28 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (Oona ) Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 23:16:28 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasley, weak link In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49240 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Janet Anderson" wrote: > > 2) This will result in security problems as the rest of the Weasleys become > more involved with Dumbledore's work and may well end by endangering some > member of Percy's family. This will be the chance for Percy to make up his > mind without regard to rules, laws, reputations, or status and his choice at > that point will determine his future and possibly the future of the > Voldemort War. > > Choices are key, as Dumbledore keeps saying. Sorry I am just replying to this post- been a bit under the weather and just now getting back into all of the wonderful things that have gone on here in the past week... This is an excellent point, as I have been thinking of how Sirius will be dealt with in the Weasley family dynamic. We already know that Ron knows the truth of Sirius and we can suspect that he will inform the rest of the Burrow as to the exact nature of his meetings with Sirius and all of the important information there in. Molly seemed to take Sirius's revealing of himself in human form rather well, but I am sure, as with others, she will need the convincing that not only Dumbledore gives, but of HHR. Looking at everyone at the Burrow, the only problem I see *is* Percy. First off, he is overly dedicated to the MoM. "He'd never come home, if dad didn't make him" ( please forgive the paraphrase). Fudge leaves at the end of GoF after a row with Dumbledore on how things should proceed in light of Voldie's return to power. I, for one, think that Percy will side with Fudge. Thus, Percy learning of Sirius is dreadfully dangerous. He wants to get ahead in the world and in his job at the MoM. What better way that to capture Sirius Black- a man still considered by most Voldie's right hand man? I see a grave future here... I so long for Percy to shed his uppity skin and let loose, but I think that his constant need for perfection and power- as he showed in all of his Humungous Bighead talk- is going to be his downfall... I just pray he doesn't take Sirius with him. -Snuffles From kethlenda at yahoo.com Mon Jan 6 00:04:12 2003 From: kethlenda at yahoo.com (Kethlenda) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 16:04:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: FILK: "Yellow" Message-ID: <20030106000412.22670.qmail@web40007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49242 FILK: "Yellow", or "Ode to Peter Pettigrew", by Kelly L. (Set to the song "Yellow" by Coldplay, this is what resulted when I got to thinking about the symbolism of Ron's attempt to turn "Scabbers" yellow on the train in PS/SS.) CAST: RON, SIRIUS, PETTIGREW, VOLDEMORT SPOILERS: PoA, GoF **************************************************** RON: Got Percy's rat, So fat and useless too; A spell I tried to do, To turn him all yellow. SIRIUS: That's not a rat! That's Peter Pettigrew. He's hiding out with you, 'Cause he is all yellow. Tonight I'll take my turn, Do what they think I have done. And kill that rat fellow. His skin, oh yeah his skin and bones Turn in...into a human form D'you know, you know I hate him so. You know I hate him so. VOLDEMORT: A coward still, You'd be in Timbuktu If you could flee or Floo, Deep down you're all yellow. PETTIGREW: I'll give my hand, I'll give my hand to you, I'll prove that I am true, And not just all yellow. VOLDEMORT: Your skin, oh yeah your skin and bones Helped me regain my human form. PETTIGREW: D'you know, for you I'll bleed Harry dry For you I'll bleed Harry dry (VOLDEMORT, of course, rewards PETTIGREW, who gazes lovingly at his new silver hand:) PETTIGREW: It's true Look how it shines for you Look how it shines for you Look how it shines for... Look how it shines for you Look how it shines for you Look how it shines... My silver hand, Look how it shines for you., And all the things you do... (Kelly L., 2003) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From amani at charter.net Sun Jan 5 18:30:13 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:30:13 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Muggle-borns References: Message-ID: <004e01c2b4e8$7cba6d40$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49243 Snapesangel: This question may have come up before, but I have not read it in any recent posts. This post is a bit technical but bear with me:)! I was wondering about what constitutes a muggle born and a half blood. I know that JK tends to use it to mean that you are a child of a)2 muggles or b)one muggle and one wizard, but I was thinking about Lily and Hermione and Harry , in terms of their "racial purity". It would seem that Haryy can be a pure blood, even though his mother was muggle born and racially the same as Hermione, who gets abuse for being a mudblood. Harry therefore has, if one goes back to his grandparents generation, 50% wizard blood (from James's parents) and 50% muggle blood. He is a 1st generation pureblood but a second generation half blood. I wondered if Lucius and his death eater cronies had particular philosophies or policies about this sort of thing, like the Nazi's did with their rule that 1/8 jewish blood made someone "untermenschen". I know this is unanswerable in canon, but I just wondered if anyone had any personal theories? Perhaps it would be the case that, as wiht the Nazis, the decision is mainly to do with a)the physical impossibility of culling half the population and still having a functioning society with eg. a big enough work force and b)the fact that if you only had 1 jewish grandparent and nothing else, you would probably not have enough jewish infulence on you to make you act "wrong" or look "wrong" for their ideals. Does it just depend on whether they *know* about a person's history and is n't very scientific at all. Just picking off anyone who wears muggle trainers. Me: I would say that the definition of Lucius and the Death Eaters would be similar to that of the Nazi's. After all, in CoS, Tom refers to Harry as a half-blood (when quoting the similarities between them) even though his mother was a witch. It seemed that his mother being muggle-born was enough for Voldemort to think of Harry as "contaminated," as it were--again, similar to the definition of a Jew during the Holocaust. However, I don't know how far back this would go, whether having one muggle-born grandparent would make you a half-blood, or a great-grandparent. But, at least to Voldemort (and his opinion on this is probably shared by the DE's), having one muggle-born parent marks you as a half-blood, even if you are, by literal definition, a pure-blood. --Taryn, with her first post [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From metal_tiara at hotmail.com Mon Jan 6 00:07:05 2003 From: metal_tiara at hotmail.com (sophineclaire ) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 00:07:05 -0000 Subject: Symbolism of Lions/Griffins (Eagles and badgers): A supersitious view..... In-Reply-To: <20030105211221.92151.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49244 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barb wrote: > > IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote: > 2. Snake-Council. Snape/Draco/Voldemort are all Slytherins. The Slytherin symbol is the serphant. It also ties in with the whole 'transfer to Slytherin' theme. > > Me: > It might be worth noting that Harry has made a "friend" of sorts of a snake before ever arriving at Hogwarts. When he inadvertantly frees the snake at the zoo, it seems rather grateful (and Harry certainly seems to bear the snake no ill will, especially as it was probably very amusing to Harry to see how terrified of it Dudley was). > > I rather like the symbolism of the snake being the symbol of evil by dint of being the Slytherin symbol, but speaking with snakes (being able to communicate with evil) being a talent of Harry's. I also like that we know that Snape is a good guy, since that also brings in the abilities/choices issue and the question of whether a "snake" (real or symbolic) is inherently evil or its ACTIONS that are good or evil. > Now me: I have this book called "Dictionary of Superstitions" by David Pickering. I'm just going to put down what they say here about snakes:: Superstition has always reagrded snakes with fear and respect, crediting them with supernatural powers. Snake cults have thrived in many different parts of the world and snakes occupy and prominent, if not always healthy, position in many of the world's religions, including Christianity. Christian snake-handling sects exist in modern USA, practioners believing that their faith protects them from a venomous snake's bite. The idea of the snake being in some way protective is shared by many traditions; tattoos, for instance, often take the form of a snake pattern, and hanging a snakeskin from the rafters will protect a house from fire. Killing the first snake that a persons sees in the year will, meanwhile, guarantee them victory over any foes over the naxt twelve months. Snakes are also widely interpreted as a phallic symbol and are therefore strongly associated with various forms of sex magic. Superstition has chreished a number of misconceptions about snakes. These include the widespread beliefs that all snakes hypnotise their prey; that they inject venom via their forked tongue; that they can all spit their venom and that, according to US tradition, 'hoop snakes' can roll in the form of a hoop at their enemies by seizing their tails in their own mouth. Another popular idea has it that snakes cannot die until the Sun goes down. Seeing a snake crossing one's path is unlucky, as are dreams about snakes; a pregnant woman who is frightened by a snale may give birth to a child with a constricted neck (though it is also said that snakes will never bite pregnant women). Tying a snakeskin around the waist of a woman in labour will ease childbirth, while carrying a snakeskin is generally supposed to be beneficial to health, effective against headaches and in extracting thorns from the skin. In the USA is it said that women in labour who are fed a drink made from the powdered rattle of a rattlesnake will have an easier time. Carrying a snake;s tooth will ward of fever, and one may be carried for luck in gambling. Other uses for snakes in folk medicine include an old English treatment for swollen necks, which requires a live snake to be drawn across the affected part three times and then buried alive in a bottle. Superstition recommends a host of animal and plant preperations for the treatment of snakebites. among the more bizarre is one which claims that rubbing crocodile blood into the bite will negate the effects of the poison. Another course is to tie the dead body of a snake around the wound. To avoid getting bitten by a snake in the first place the simplest course is to wear an emerald End quote. > While the lion (symbol of Gryffindor) traditionally was a killer of snakes (and griffins in particular are supposed to be the enemies of basilisks) I hope that JKR will eventually rise above some of the symbolic rhetoric she's woven into the text and show that all snakes/Slytherins are not destined for evil--just as we know, because of Peter Pettigrew, that all lions/Gryffindors are not necessarily good. > >From the same book, only about lions: As the 'King of the Animals', the lion is said to be virtually fearles; as a result, most traditions surrounding it reflects its strength and regal bearing ( feeding a little lion heart to a child, for instance, will make it grow up healthy and courageous). only when faced with a gamecock, which refuses to acknowledge the lion's rank, will the animal betray anything like trepidation. Superstition claims that a lion will never kill a fellow king and the lions formerly held in the Tower of London were siad to be mysteriously attuned to the well being of the English sovereign: if one of the lions died then the ailing monarch's days were surely numbered. Any warrior going into battle dressed in a lion's skin could congratulate himself on the certain knowledge that no harm could befall him. Lionesses are said to breed every seventh year, an event that is marked by a larger number of stillbirhs among other species, including humans. Other supersitions state that lions sleep with their eyes open annd that lion cubs are born dead and remain so until their parents breathe life into them. It seems that Snakes are actually a very helpful creature in terms of health and luck and Lions have more regal connections. Since I'm on a roll, lets look at Ravens and Badgers For badgers: An ancient rustic belief from Yorkshire regions that the badger has longer legs on one side in order to help it to run across and up a slope. Elsewhere in Europe, Badgers' teeth are particularly prized by gamblers, who claim that carrying one on the person guartees success in any wager as well as bestowing good luck in general. For Eagles ( since they are the animal for Ravenclaw, not ravens...): Associated with the gods of both ancient Greeks and Romans, the eagle has always been linked with strength, divinity and immortality. The ancient Egyptians, who worshipped the eagle-headed Horus, believed that the human soul took the form of an eagle after death. Christians, too, see the eagle as a symbol of resurrections. Irish traditions claims that Adam and Eve were turned into Eagles and live to this day off the coast of Galway. In Wales, the eagles of Snowdon were said to raise whirlwinds throughout the land by flapping their wings. Seeing several eagles flying together is said to be a sign of peace, but if the birds remain motionless on rocky outcrops they are a warning of an enemy's approach. It is widely held that eagles never grow old and that they renew their youth by flying so close to the sun that their feathers catch light and then plunges into the sea, from which they emerge rejuvenated. Their flesh , feathers, eggs and blood are consequently valued as ingredients in the witchcraft of many countries. The eagle is now protected by law and those who persist in plotting to steal an eagle's eggs (which bestow great good luck against witchcraft if eaten by two people) are warned that, if successful, they will nnever again enjoy peace of mind. Many dilike hearing the piercing cry of an eagle, which is taken as an omen of death, and likewise become nervous if they see an eagle hovering for a long time over a particular spot as this too is interpreted as a warning of immeninent demise. the heart of an eagle can be used to concoct an effective Aphrodisiac, while its gall bladder should be mixed with honey as it is a remedy for poor eyesight and its marrow is credited by some as having strong powers as a contraceptive. Eating the still warm brains of a dead eagle is said to conjure up fabulous illusions. ----SophineClaire ( If only I was this enthusiastic about my classes.) From stormlass at yahoo.com Sun Jan 5 19:34:54 2003 From: stormlass at yahoo.com (snapesrighthand) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 11:34:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Colonel Fubster In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030105193454.74547.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49245 --- Janet Anderson wrote: > >Hi - I've been reading POA again! (It's my > favourite so I've read it > >the most times out of all of the books) and > Chapter 2 always > >intrigues me. What intrigues me most is the > character Colonel > >Fubster. > > Interesting. I just assumed he was Marge's > boyfriend. > > Maybe he's another of the wizards hanging > around on the perimeter of the > Dursley family, watching Harry. > In an interview with Rowling somone asked her if Colonel Fubster was a wizard or if he was going to have a bigger part and she said no he was just a neighbor or something to that effect. Her interviews are archived on mugglenet.com You should go read them. You learn alot about the books even if she is trying to be evasive she does give some answers. "snapesrighthand" From kewiromeo at aol.com Sun Jan 5 22:12:35 2003 From: kewiromeo at aol.com (kewiromeo at aol.com) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 17:12:35 EST Subject: Ancient Magic and wands Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49246 Ancient Magic: Perhaps this type of magic is strictly a mind over magic operation. Lily is a mudblood and I would not think in the 7 years at Hogwarts you are taught lots of ancient magic such as self sacrifice. And maybe in the later years of the school they do happen to teach such spells/incantation/mind over magic solutions. We know that James and Lily were married right out of school and had Harry immediately after leading to the downfall of Voldermort when Harry was just a year old. Harry seems to have learned plenty in his first 4 years. Lily had 8(?) or so years to learn everything. Perhaps a Hogwarts diploma or O.W.L. degree is sort of like an enlightenment, or I've heard from this site and sorry for not searching each and every message, but as Hermione can make up spells with her knowledge of magic, in 7 years you learn enough that magic conforms to you and you are not limited by standard books of spells and the like. wands: Mr. Ollivander was telling Harry when he first walks into the shop that Lily favored a wand that was good for Charms while James favored a wand that was good for transfiguration. We can tell that wands might help to make the Witch or Wizard. Prof. McGonagall was probably destined to be a transfiguration teacher and her wand will probably be like James in that context. I wonder what all the other cores do. As well, Mr. Ollivander had a single wand that lay on a faded cushion in the shop window. If I were him, of all the wands that I would make, mine would be the best. I mean, why not? Canon has little to say on the subject of Mr. Ollivander, but I think he is a more important character than we give him credit for. Tzvi of Brooklyn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Heleen at ptdprolog.net Sun Jan 5 23:41:14 2003 From: Heleen at ptdprolog.net (Heleen Greenwald) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 18:41:14 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort and Elixir References: <001b01c2b46b$8fe36520$ac9fcdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: <003101c2b513$f13873d0$a500a8c0@boghouse> No: HPFGUIDX 49247 Richelle Votaw: But looking back at Voldemort's quest for the stone and Elixir, how exactly did he plan to get his body back with Elixir? Hello, This is Phillipa in Pennsylvania, USA I'm new and this is my first post. Very interesting thoughts on the Elixir and the Philosopher's stone. Got me to wondering..... If Voldemort doesn't have his own body anymore, where does he keep his spirit when he doesn't have a host body? Does it just float around? Phillipa From enchanted at pacbell.net Sun Jan 5 23:56:21 2003 From: enchanted at pacbell.net (Enchanted) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 15:56:21 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Colonel Fubster References: Message-ID: <05ff01c2b516$457a5bf0$3b0afea9@family> No: HPFGUIDX 49248 It would make sense for Dumbledore to make sure Harry was safe with anyone the Dursleys might leave him with, or visit. I wouldn't doubt that we find that Fubster is a wizard, put in place by Dumbledore to watch over Harry when he visits Aunt Marge. After all, she is Mr. Dursley's sister and I'm sure they visit her occasionally. Mrs. Figg watches over Harry at the Dursleys and I wouldn't doubt that there are witches and wizards posted in all of the places that Harry might spend time, including school. Enchanted From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Jan 6 00:35:31 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 00:35:31 -0000 Subject: Tangent: Who Knows What? (was: Percy Weasley) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49249 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, " "Oona (Snuffles) wrote: > ...edited... > > This is an excellent point, (re: Janet Anderson's point about Percy > and having to make a choice in his allegiance) as I have been > thinking of how Sirius will be dealt with in the Weasley family > dynamic. We already know that Ron knows the truth of Sirius and we > can suspect that he will inform the rest of the Burrow as to the > exact nature of his meetings with Sirius and all of the important > information there in. Molly seemed to take Sirius's revealing of > himself in human form rather well, but I am sure, as with others, > she will need the convincing that not only Dumbledore gives, but of > HHR. > > ...Big Edited... > > -Snuffles bboy_mn who is off on a tangent: What you said about Ron knowing about Sirius, and how, when, and how much he will tell his family, got me wondering. How much of what happens to them do Harry/Ron/Hermione tell anyone? As I read the conclusion of each book I assume that some small group of people gets to hear the details of what happens during that book. But now that Snuffles has me thinking about it, I really don't know. Other than when Harry sat down with Dumbledore after Harry returns from the graveyard, have we ever see these kids tell anyone anything? Hagrid? The Weasleys? Dumblefore? Certainly Dumbledore knows more than anyone, partly because to some extent Harry/Hermione/Ron will have talked to him. But really, from the books, they don't seem to have talked to him that much. I think a lot of it Dumbledore has pieced together on his own. So, back to the question; who knows what? Do you think H/H/R told anyone (classmates, Fred & George, Seamus/Dean/Neville, Mr. & Mrs. Weasley, McGonagall) the details of what happened in the Chambers of the Stone (Philosopher's Stone - Book 1)? To what extent, especially the Weasleys, does anyone know what happened in the Chamber of Secrets or the Shrieking Shack? Remember that we don't even really see H/H/R tell Dumbledore that much about what happened in the Shrieking Shack. He comes to H/H/R in the hospital room after talking to Sirius, and it's Sirius's story re-enforced by what little H/H/R told him, that convinces him that Sirius is innocent. There is the implication that on the train ride home, Harry lightens up and is more forthcoming about what happened in the graveyard. But we only hear the statement that Harry lightens up and talks more freely in Harry's thoughts. We get precious little about what Harry really told Hermione and Ron (or Fred, George, and Ginny). As far as Mr. and Mrs. Weasley, from what I can tell, all they seem to have is that infernal grandfather clock, with Ron's hand constantly pointing to 'Mortal Peril'. I suspect they will add Harry to the clock, and within six months I expect poor Mrs. Weasley to have an ulcer. So, once again I ask, Who knows what? I get the sense that not very many people know very much. The adventures of Harry/Ron/Hermione are adventures share mostly by us, and very very few people in the Poterverse. Opinion? Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From srsiriusblack at aol.com Mon Jan 6 00:45:41 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 19:45:41 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tangent: Who Knows What? (was: Percy Weasley) Message-ID: <50.166b9273.2b4a2bb5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49250 In a message dated 05/01/2003 19:36:06 Eastern Standard Time, bboy_mn at yahoo.com writes: > So, once again I ask, Who knows what? I get the sense that not very > many people know very much. The adventures of Harry/Ron/Hermione are > adventures share mostly by us, and very very few people in the Poterverse. > > Opinion? > > Just a few thoughts. > Thanks for picking up on that... as I was sitting back and thinking about the other adventures we know that most people know a bit about what transpired between Quirell|Voldie and Harry. I would assume- and we all know about those pecky assumptions- that at some point, bits of the story about the Chamber were revealed to Mr and Mrs Weasley. in GoF, it is pretty obvious at the Burrow before the Quidditch cup that only HHR know about Sirius... Yet, I would think that at some point, Ron will explain the details he knows to his family. Lets, Dumbledore do it.... I foresee great secret meetings between Dumbledore and his supporters in dealing with Voldemort.... Perhaps what is necessary for them to know will be explained then? Althoug, if I were a parent and my child knew what Ron knows about Sirius, I would most likely ask him. Before Dumbledore asks Sirius to reveal himself, there is a reason behind the secrecy that HHR keep. But, with his transformation from dog form, there has to be explanation to those who are unaware of the circumstances.... Now my mind is cluttered even more... But, on the subject of who knows what... I think only HHR know everything about their adventures and they choose which information to share with others and what not to share. Hoping this is somewhat addressed in Book 5 -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Jan 6 01:02:46 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 01:02:46 -0000 Subject: Muggle-borns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49251 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lindseyharrisst " wrote: > > ...edited... > > I was wondering about what constitutes a muggle born and a half > blood. ...edited... > > It would seem that Haryy can be a pure blood, even though his mother > was muggle born and racially the same as Hermione, who gets abuse > for being a mudblood. Harry therefore has, if one goes back to his > grandparents generation, 50% wizard blood (from James's parents) and > 50% muggle blood. He is a 1st generation pureblood but a second > generation half blood. > > ...edited... > > Snapesangel bboy_mn ponders: Tricky business, this business of blood. Here is my take on the issue, copied and embellished from a post in October. bboy_mn adds: Boy this whole muggle/mudblood/pure-blood thing is confusing. I'm not saying I'm right, but here is my take on the subject. Pure-Blood = in the truest sense is someone who can trace their magical heritage back through infinity with only magic blood intermarriages. (Not likely in reality, but that's it in the truest sense) Muggle = non-magical person Magic person = anyone who is magical regardless of birth. Muggle-Born = a witch or a wizard who's parents are BOTH muggles. Magic-born or Wizard-born person = the wizard son or witch daughter of a witch and a wizard. (perhaps even a squib) (As someone else pointed out, in a sense, we could say that Harry is a first generation pure-blood. If he and his decendants only marry magic people, in five or ten generations, his family might qualify as a pure-blood in general. Although, at the moment, he is only a pure-blood as a technicality. Despite Harry being the son of two magic parents, Draco wouldn't call him a pure-blood, at the same time, he is not likely to call him a mudblood. See, I told you it was complicated.) Mixed blood or Half-blood = the magical son daughter of a witch or a wizard, and a non-magical muggle parent. As in Tom Riddle. Harry has purer blood than Tom Riddle does because both of Harry's parents were magic. Half-blood - Tom Riddle again. One magic parent and one muggle parent. His blood by lineage is only half magic despite the fact that he may be all magic. See confusing.... half magical blood in an all magical person. Mudblood = is several things. In the purest form, all muggles are mudbloods in that they do not have any magical blood at all. By another definition, the magical son or daughter of muggle parents are mudbloods by virtue of the fact that they have no magical heritage. They are magical but have no ancestral magical blood. That would be Hermione. Next, if your parents are a witch/wizard and a muggle, then your blood isn't pure, therefore you are a mudblood. Some by some definition a mixed blood or a half blood could be considered a mudblood. The blood is contaminated by non-magical blood, therefore, it is dirty. Again, Tom Riddle. Very interesting that by any definition Tom Riddle is more of a mudblood than Harry. Part of what confuses this, is that the concept of 'mudblood' is in the eye (or mouth) of the insulter. If you are not of totally pure-blood as the Weasleys and Malfoys are, then any impurity makes you a mudblood in some peoples eyes. If you have one muggle in a 1,000 years of magical heritage then to some people your blood isn't pure and therefore, you are a mudblood. Harry could be mudblood in the eyes of some because his mother was muggle born, BUT he could just as easily be pureblood in the eyes of others by vitue of the fact that his parents are both magical; a witch and a wizard. Point- the is no absolute definition of a 'mudblood'. Just a few thoughts on the subject. bboy_mn From Malady579 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 6 01:05:33 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody ) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 01:05:33 -0000 Subject: Voldie's old body (was: Voldemort and Elixir) In-Reply-To: <001b01c2b46b$8fe36520$ac9fcdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49252 Richelle asked: >Is Voldemort's body out there somewhere? Or was it destroyed with >the rebounded curse? I know it said he was ripped from his body. >And Sirius said something about getting to the house and seeing the >bodies, which could be just the two (Lily and James) or more. You know Richelle, I never thought about this. Man, that surprises me. What did happen to Voldemort's body? Given the circumstances of a rebound AK curse, it seems that what happened to him would be unknown. I doubt the DE's came to reclaim the body(shell) since they fled to their own safety. Had a body been there, then would the MoM buried it? Would they just burn it? It seems that body does not exist anymore, since Voldemort cannot re-inhabit it. But then again, dead bodies are not inhabitable anyway. Wait - it is his soul/spirit that survived, right? Or is it his life force that survived? If his life was separated and not his soul (aka. dementor's kiss) then he is still alive per say but bodiless. So then, what does a bounced curse that takes the life out of you do? It takes the life out but something happens and you don't die. In normal AK's the left body is frozen dead, but it bounced so maybe it is destroyed from the ricochet momentum. Seems he does not have a grave, so it is possible. Or maybe, it was destroyed in the house toppling. Anyway, after that long travel through my mind, I think whatever happened to that body, Voldemort couldn't return to it. It is no longer his. Phillipa wrote: >If Voldemort doesn't have his own body anymore, where does he keep >his spirit when he doesn't have a host body? Does it just float >around? His spirit is probably like a ghost. It has a set parameter and state of being, but is not solid. Therefore, it cannot be destroyed but cannot die either. It is stuck in limbo forever. New form of torture really. Since it seems he can travel places, I would guess gliding is his best bet. Melody From catlady at wicca.net Mon Jan 6 02:12:47 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) ) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 02:12:47 -0000 Subject: Fubster / Who Will Out Sirius?/ Harry's Dream / Disembodied Voldemort Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49253 Jo Serenadust wrote: << I'm so used to my posts sinking like stones and not inspiring any comments, >> That's what happens when your ideas are so good and you explain them so well that no one has anything to add except the forbidden "I agree" post. Michelle MitchBailey wrote: << What intrigues me most is the character Colonel Fubster. He's mention 4 times in this chapter without even being physically there: >> I believe you have brought up a New Topic! Like Janet Anderson, I had always just kind of assumed he was Marge's boyfriend (not necessarily willingly, but simply overpowered by her commanding personality; not necessarily romantically, depending on how much interest either of them has in that sex stuff) but am impressed by your explanation that the broken wineglass stuff might be a clue that he might be a wizard. << So for a character we've never met in 'the flesh' we know he quite well - in fact there have probably been characters that we have met in the flesh that we know less about! >> Too true. Snuffles wrote: << Looking at everyone at the Burrow, the only problem I see *is* Percy. First off, he is overly dedicated to the MoM. "He'd never come home, if dad didn't make him" ( please forgive the paraphrase). Fudge leaves at the end of GoF after a row with Dumbledore on how things should proceed in light of Voldie's return to power. I, for one, think that Percy will side with Fudge. Thus, Percy learning of Sirius is dreadfully dangerous. He wants to get ahead in the world and in his job at the MoM. What better way that to capture Sirius Black - a man still considered by most Voldie's right hand man? >> Well, JKR has tried, via Ron, to make us think that the Twins might turn him in for the reward money. The Ron-haters allege that that is Ron projecting his own greedy treason on them. I can't bring myself to seriously suspect the Twins OR Ron. JKR has given us a very good feeling about Bill and Charlie, but really how much do we know about them? Besides Percy and his misplaced loyalty, the other danger might be dear Ginny -- the Trio AND her parents seem determined to leave her in the dark, "spare" her from knowing the troubling things that the adults are worried about -- so if she accidentally discovers that Sirius Black is lurking around in dog form, and no one has told her that he is innocent and they are hiding him, she might well report him with the best of intentions! Steve bboy_mn wrote: << Do you think H/H/R told anyone (classmates, Fred & George, Seamus/Dean/Neville, Mr. & Mrs. Weasley, McGonagall) the details of what happened in the Chambers of the Stone (Philosopher's Stone - Book 1)? To what extent, especially the Weasleys, does anyone know what happened in the Chamber of Secrets or the Shrieking Shack? >> Well, in GoF we have Ron happily telling everyone an ever more exagerated version of his adventure as an underwater hostage. I gather he likes attention enough that he'd be happy telling stories of Harry's adventures, altho' he likes admiration enough to prefer telling stories of his own heroism. I expect Ron has told everybody everything that he was wasn't sworn to secrecy on and he doesn't think it will get him in trouble and he doesn't think it will get any other good guys in trouble -- so I don't think he'll tell where Sirius is hiding, but he might well tell about Sirius having been innocent, framed by Pettigrew, who was his rat Scabbers! And I get the general impression that Hermione doesn't keep much from McGonagall after it's over and Dumbledore has handled all the punishments and absolutions. Laura wrote: << But this raises an interesting question- does Harry connect Snape and the green light simply because his subconcious knows this green light is connected to his parent's death and therefore Voldemort, and Harry's immediate reaction to Snape is that he is evil and therefore also connected with Voldemort? Or was Harry remembering Snape along with that fateful night because Snape really WAS there? >> Also, was Draco's role in the dream only that Draco and Snape were the two Slytherins who had impressed Harry with a strong desire not to be Sorted into Slytherin, or was it also something about Lucius (whom Draco strongly resembles) having been in the Godric's Hollow attack with LV and Snape? Personally, I feel that LV brought only Wormtail with him on that occasion, but I'm frequently wrong. Phillipa "Heleen Greenwald" << If Voldemort doesn't have his own body anymore, where does he keep his spirit when he doesn't have a host body? Does it just float around? >> Yes, Voldemort in spirit form (called Vapormort or Vapor!Mort in some recent posts) just floats around some limited area in a forest in Albania. I get the impression that he CANNOT leave that area without a body, such as possessing the body of a woodland animal or a human visitor, or making the UglyBaby body. I get the impression that whenever Voldemort gets de-bodied, Vapormort flies at high speed directly to that one area. I assume that he is pulled there and held by something like magnetic attraction. I speculate that the reason for such a magnetic attraction is that he performed some spell in his immortality project in that place. From rvotaw at i-55.com Mon Jan 6 03:13:26 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 21:13:26 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Colonel Fubster/ Harry's Dream References: <05ff01c2b516$457a5bf0$3b0afea9@family> Message-ID: <011601c2b531$951c9ae0$739ecdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 49254 Enchanted writes: > It would make sense for Dumbledore to make sure Harry was safe with anyone the > Dursleys might leave him with, or visit. > > I wouldn't doubt that we find that Fubster is a wizard, put in place by > Dumbledore to watch over Harry when he visits Aunt Marge. After all, she is Mr. > Dursley's sister and I'm sure they visit her occasionally. > > Mrs. Figg watches over Harry at the Dursleys and I wouldn't doubt that there > are witches and wizards posted in all of the places that Harry might spend > time, including school. JKR was asked about Colonel Fubster in an interview. If he was a wizard. She said no, he was an ordinary Muggle neighbor of Aunt Marge's. Catlady wrote: > Also, was Draco's role in the dream only that Draco and Snape were > the two Slytherins who had impressed Harry with a strong desire not > to be Sorted into Slytherin, or was it also something about Lucius > (whom Draco strongly resembles) having been in the Godric's Hollow > attack with LV and Snape? Personally, I feel that LV brought only > Wormtail with him on that occasion, but I'm frequently wrong. That's interesting. Suppose for a minute that Voldemort was accompanied by Wormtail, Lucius, and Snape. Why? Backup? To keep watch? Wormtail, obviously, because he was the secret keeper. Snape (until recently) trusted Lucius. Who is certainly out for his own good, no one else's. If Snape was there, did he stand casually by doing nothing to save the Potters? Was he under orders from Dumbledore not to blow his cover for any reason (even to save them)? Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon Jan 6 03:19:10 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr ) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 03:19:10 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasley, weak link In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49255 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Oona " wrote: > > Sorry I am just replying to this post- been a bit under the weather > and just now getting back into all of the wonderful things that have > gone on here in the past week... > It doesn't matter how long it takes you to reply -- an interesting thought is interesting any time. And I hope you're feeling better! :) > > Looking at everyone at the Burrow, the only problem I see *is* Percy. > First off, he is overly dedicated to the MoM. "He'd never come home, > if dad didn't make him" ( please forgive the paraphrase). Fudge > leaves at the end of GoF after a row with Dumbledore on how things > should proceed in light of Voldie's return to power. I, for one, > think that Percy will side with Fudge. Thus, Percy learning of Sirius > is dreadfully dangerous. He wants to get ahead in the world and in > his job at the MoM. What better way that to capture Sirius Black- a > man still considered by most Voldie's right hand man? > > I see a grave future here... I so long for Percy to shed his uppity > skin and let loose, but I think that his constant need for perfection > and power- as he showed in all of his Humungous Bighead talk- is > going to be his downfall... I just pray he doesn't take Sirius with > him. > > -Snuffles While I agree with you that Percy is in terrible danger, I'd like to add a ray of hope. It comes through Bill, who heard in the hospital ward the fact that Crouch Sr. was killed by his own son, a DE who helped bring about the return of Voldemort. In GoF "The Parting of the Ways," as soon as Fudge leaves Dumbledore, Dumbledore sends Bill off to the ministry to alert Arthur. Bill and Arthur would have also told Percy what had happened -- so Percy's first news about these events would have come from his family. Okay, I don't know this for sure, but I can't see how Arthur would *not* have told his own son right away that Voldemort had returned and they were all in terrible danger. On the other hand, Percy's boss is dead, and Percy's very junior status would most likely keep him out of Fudge's coucils of strategy with his upper-level ministers. For the immediate present, Arthur is Percy's closest contact in the Ministry. Now think back to the riot scene after the Q. World Cup -- Arthur, Bill, Charlie *and* Percy all run off to help restore calm. Granted, they were doing that *with* the MoM, but still, Percy did it *with* his family also. When Dumbledore sent Bill off, he said, "Tell him what has happened. Tell him I will be in direct contact with him shortly. He will need to be discreet, however. If Fudge thinks I am interfering at the Ministry --" So Arthur (and by extension at least all the Weasleys 18 or over) are soon to hear details from Dumbledore, and that there *is* a parting of the ways -- hence the need for discretion. The ray of hope that I see in this is that Percy is very likely to be forewarned of all that's happened *before* anyone from Fudge gets around to giving him any orders, and that we have seen Percy working with his father against DE's already (I'll be very happy to take that as foreshadowing as long as I can!) I am hoping that this will be enough to save Percy from his Ministry ambitions and any possible transference of loyalty from the deceased Crouch to Fudge himself or somebody worse. He can work long hours for Dumbledore now instead of Crouch, and Percy *did* look up to him. Annemehr who has a lot of sympathy for Percy as she used to believe in the need for following *every* little rule herself... From lmccabe at sonic.net Mon Jan 6 03:26:47 2003 From: lmccabe at sonic.net (linda_mccabe ) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 03:26:47 -0000 Subject: Harry's fate in book 5 & Amos Diggory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49256 Wendy and Jo Serenadust I wanted to post a reply into the thread about Harry's fate in Book 5 as to whether or not the Wizarding World would believe that Voldemort returned or if they might suspect that Harry was someway responsible for Cedric's death. You see, I've done a lot of thinking about that and I think Harry is going to be painted in a *very* unfavorable light. I think Fudge is going to make Harry, Sirius Black and Dumbledore look like they are responsible for all that is wrong with the Wizarding World. I also think that Amos Diggory will soon come to believe that Harry killed Cedric and will subsequently do anything in his power to get at him. Here is my poisoned pen rendition of what the Daily Prophet might run. Has the Dark Lord Returned? Ministry of Magic dismisses rumors By Hearst Seldes, Managing Editor Yesterday the offices of the Daily Prophet received a deluge of owls from concerned parents throughout the British Isles. They are worried about the possibility that You-Know-Who has returned. Three days ago at the annual leaving feast at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry, the embattled headmaster Albus Dumbledore startled everyone with the announcement that You-Know-Who had not only risen but that murdered Hogwarts sixth year student and Triwizard champion, Cedric Diggory. The Daily Prophet had previously received unconfirmed reports of the death of one of the Triwizard champions, but now it can be stated that Cedric Diggory was killed during the third task of the tournament on June 24th. It seems that during the third task of the tournament, two of the champions, Diggory and Harry Potter (the boy who survived an attack by You-Know-Who when he was just a baby) disappeared for a period of about half an hour. When they suddenly re-appeared outside the maze, Potter was bleeding and clutching both the Triwizard cup and Diggory's corpse. We have been unable to determine where Potter and Diggory were during this lost period of time. It is commonly known that one cannot Apparate or Disapparate on the grounds of Hogwarts, so any claim that Potter and Diggory left Hogwarts, saw You-Know-Who rise again and then reappear at Hogwarts grounds should be treated with great suspicion said a source from the Ministry of Magic. It was also rumored that Harry Potter has an Invisibility Cloak, which would add another layer of intrigue regarding the `disappearance' of those two champions. The Minister of Magic Cornelius Fudge refused to answer questions regarding rumors that he had summoned a Dementor and that someone within the castle walls had received a Dementor's Kiss that night. Fudge did have this to say regarding Cedric Diggory's death. "The Triwizard Tournament has a long history of fatal accidents. Dumbledore had assured us that this year would be different, as they had supposedly taken great precautions to assure everyone's safety. Since Cedric was the son of one of our Ministry's officials, Amos Diggory, all of us at the Ministry of Magic have been hit hard. It is as if we all lost a family member." In regards to You-Know-Who's possible return, Fudge responded, "I've seen no evidence of that happening. Frankly, I think Dumbledore is being very irresponsible and is listening to the ravings of what appears to be a very disturbed young man who has his own suspicions about him. After all Potter can converse with snakes, he has episodes of unexplained convulsions as well as an unexplained disappearance in which he then returned holding a dead rival. The other two champions had been stunned in the maze. It seems that Dumbledore may be trying to cover up for a favoured student." Others also cast questions regarding Potter's reputation as being a hero. Narcissa Malfoy complained to this reporter that her son Draco and his classmates Gregory Goyle and Vincent Crabbe had been attacked by Harry Potter and his friends on their ride home on the Hogwarts Express. "My son was only going to extend his congratulations to Potter on winning the Triwizard Tournament when he was viciously attacked and left unconscious for hours in the hallway of the train. I became worried when he hadn't disembarked from the train when all the other students had." At this point, Mrs. Malfoy began to cry. "Imagine my shock when I found my son and his two friends sprawled out with footprints on them. All those boys had to be treated at St. Mungo's for the jumble of hexes that were placed on them. I sincerely hope that Dumbledore will punish those responsible, but given his history with Potter ? I'm not holding my breath." Dumbledore has long been considered a controversial headmaster. He's hired a werewolf and a half-giant to teach his students. It is also reported that he allowed Alastor "Mad-Eye" Moody to place students under the Imperius Curse as part of their Defence Against the Dark Arts lessons. Two years ago, Dumbledore was briefly removed by the school governors after four students had been attacked and petrified by something within the castle. There was a fantastic story at the end of that year that Harry Potter and his friend Ronald Weasley were in a hidden chamber in the bowels of the castle and fought a thousand year old basilisk that supposedly was left there by Hogwarts co-founder Salazar Slytherin. There was no evidence to support Potter's wild tale at that time, but it was enough to garner Dumbledore's praise and four hundred house points, which assured the House Cup to Gryffindor. (Note: that was Dumbledore's House also.) Another curious note regarding that episode is that renowned author Gilderoy Lockhart was injured in the company of Potter and Weasley. This famed hunter of werewolves, vampires and other dark creatures cannot verify anything of Potter's supposed encounter with a basilisk as he is still an inpatient at St. Mungo's with severe memory problems suffered that fateful night. The previous year there was the wildly reported story that Harry met You-Know-Who in another (!) secret chamber at Hogwarts and fought with him over a Philosopher's Stone. According to this legend, the Defence Against the Dark Arts instructor, Professor Quirrell was possessed by Voldemort. This incident in the chamber caused the death of Professor Quirrell and for Dumbledore to lavish enough points on Gryffindor to snatch the House Cup from Slytherin for the first time in eight years. One should carefully weigh rumors of the Dark Lord's reappearance with the sources of this information. Unfortunately, neither Headmaster Dumbledore nor Harry Potter could be reached for comment on this story. One other side note, our own reporter Rita Skeeter who had been covering the Triwizard Tournament and had been critical of Harry Potter is missing. She was last known to have been trying to cover the Third Task. Another disappearance linked to Potter, perhaps? Might his survival years ago against an attack by You-Know-Who have been a sign that Harry Potter is destined to become an even more powerful dark wizard? Only time will tell. ---Yes, you don't need Rita Skeeter's information gleaned from the Hospital wing in order for Harry and Dumbledore to be painted very badly in the press. Athena http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/L_C_McCabe/ (BTW, that was an excerpt from chapter 4) From noir_l at yahoo.com Mon Jan 6 01:43:18 2003 From: noir_l at yahoo.com (noir_l ) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 01:43:18 -0000 Subject: How old is Voldemort?--Two different ages given! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49257 Hi There, I looked at some past posts to see if this has been discussed before and I couldn't find any, but if it has I'm sorry. But I was wondering exactly how old Voldemort is? In Cos, Harry goes back fifty years and the last time the Chamber was open was fifty years ago (US edition p.233) and Tom was 15 (the movie says 16, but in the book Tom says it took him 5 years to find the Chamber, so he would be 15). So that would make Voldemort 65 in Harry's second year. But in PoA, Harry's third year, it says that Voldemort has been the most feared wizard for "a hundred years" (US edition p. 6). Is this just a mistake made by the editors and/or publisher? Or does Rowling have a surprise for us and "hundred" is correct and Voldemort is older then we think? -Lindsay From piper3777 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 6 01:53:27 2003 From: piper3777 at yahoo.com (Piper ) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 01:53:27 -0000 Subject: Colonel Fubster In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49258 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mitchbailey82 > > I just wonder if will meet Colonel Fubster in the future ? and could > he be a wizard? - Lets just hope that this doesn't mean that will > meet Marge again too ;-) > > > Michelle I see someone already pointed this out but JKR has said that he is not a wizard. Here's the quote from the Yahoo chat: "Yahooligan_auror5 asks: In Prisoner of Azkaban, a character by the name of Colonel Fubster was mentioned. Is he a wizard? jkrowling_bn: No, he's a Muggle neighbour of Aunt Marge's (poor man)" Her choice of words and the addition of "poor man" at the end strongly suggests that he is not Marge's boyfriend; he's just a neighbor. Piper From jmmears at comcast.net Mon Jan 6 03:55:37 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust ) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 03:55:37 -0000 Subject: Who Will Out Sirius? (was: Fubster/Harry's dream) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49259 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) " wrote: > Jo Serenadust wrote: > > << I'm so used to my posts sinking like stones and not inspiring any > comments, >> > > That's what happens when your ideas are so good and you explain > them so well that no one has anything to add except the forbidden > "I agree" post. Shucks, Catlady. If all this flattery keeps up, my head will get so swollen I'll never shut up (VBG). Thanks! Catlady wrote: > Well, JKR has tried, via Ron, to make us think that the Twins might > turn him in for the reward money. The Ron-haters allege that that is > Ron projecting his own greedy treason on them. I can't bring myself > to seriously suspect the Twins OR Ron. I'm having trouble remembering where JKR tried to make us think that the Twins might turn anyone in for the reward money. I do remember Ron saying that Percy was so rules-bound (my paraphrase), that he worried about him turning the twins in for trying to blackmail Bagman. Was there an interview where she said something about this? Catlady again: > JKR has given us a very good feeling about Bill and Charlie, but > really how much do we know about them? > > Besides Percy and his misplaced loyalty, the other danger might be > dear Ginny -- the Trio AND her parents seem determined to leave her > in the dark, "spare" her from knowing the troubling things that the > adults are worried about -- so if she accidentally discovers that > Sirius Black is lurking around in dog form, and no one has told her > that he is innocent and they are hiding him, she might well report > him with the best of intentions! I have a feeling that a lot of this information is going to be shared with *all* the Weasleys this summer (after GoF), and that there aren't going to be very many secrets left. Ginny has gotten a lot older and since she's at Hogwarts where (let's face it), most of the dangerous stuff seems to happen, her parents will probably feel that she'll be safer if she does know what's going on. Anyway, after CoS, Ginny's *innocence* is somewhat lost IMO. Catlady again: > Well, in GoF we have Ron happily telling everyone an ever more > exagerated version of his adventure as an underwater hostage. I > gather he likes attention enough that he'd be happy telling stories > of Harry's adventures, altho' he likes admiration enough to prefer > telling stories of his own heroism. I expect Ron has told everybody > everything that he was wasn't sworn to secrecy on and he doesn't > think it will get him in trouble and he doesn't think it will get > any other good guys in trouble -- so I don't think he'll tell where > Sirius is hiding, but he might well tell about Sirius having been > innocent, framed by Pettigrew, who was his rat Scabbers! Well, if you eliminate everything that he wasn't sworn to secrecy on or won't get him or the other good guys in trouble, there's not much left to tell (bg)! I tend to think he probably wouldn't mention the story about Sirius and Scabbers, if for no other reason, people would think he was nuts. Given that everyone still thinks Sirius is guilty, he'd probably want to avoid talking about any further contact with him at all. Ron doesn't mind trying to make himself look like a big-shot, but I don't think he wants to tell the world about Harry's adventures. Of course, I am a big Ron fan but I can't think of any time in books 1 through 4 where he's been indiscreet about anything Harry's done or said. Jo Serenadust From srsiriusblack at aol.com Mon Jan 6 04:20:01 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 23:20:01 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy Weasley, weak link Message-ID: <102.22ee74b2.2b4a5df1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49260 In a message dated 05/01/2003 22:19:59 Eastern Standard Time, annemehr at yahoo.com writes: > When Dumbledore sent Bill off, he said, "Tell him what has happened. > Tell him I will be in direct contact with him shortly. He will need > to be discreet, however. If Fudge thinks I am interfering at the > Ministry --" So Arthur (and by extension at least all the Weasleys 18 > or over) are soon to hear details from Dumbledore, and that there *is* > a parting of the ways -- hence the need for discretion. The ray of > hope that I see in this is that Percy is very likely to be forewarned > of all that's happened *before* anyone from Fudge gets around to > giving him any orders, and that we have seen Percy working with his > father against DE's already (I'll be very happy to take that as > foreshadowing as long as I can!) I thought about this as well... Honestly, I *wish* Bill had not Disapparated before Sirius revealed himself. That would save me a lot of worry. ( But, then I am in the twisted Severus/Sirius/Remus love triangle frame of mind as I *do* so love them all... lol) Bill, again a character I seem to like a great much, seems to have a head on his shoulders, and I doubnt hardly that once Dumbledore has explained EVERYthing Bill, Charlie and Mr Weasley will all be in line to stand beside Dumbledore- which of course means standing beside Sirius. I still keep coming back to a problem with Percy. I easily see how Mr Weasley will abandon MoM protocol, or what have you, and deny them his allegience. He, as I have said before, is a mischief maker in his own right, and although he works for the MoM, he has blatantly not always followed the rules-- as well as having written some loop holes into the laws which affect him... Percy will probably have to make a crucial decision. I want Percy to break free of his mindset. I want him to prove a hero and a fun loving Weasley. I keep my fingers crossed for him, for I, like you, was also a rule follower... -Snuffles, thanking you for the well wishes... it's just that seasonal nastiness that knocks us all out once in a while) "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From srsiriusblack at aol.com Mon Jan 6 04:24:15 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 23:24:15 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Colonel Fubster Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49261 In a message dated 05/01/2003 22:48:42 Eastern Standard Time, piper3777 at yahoo.com writes: > "Yahooligan_auror5 asks: In Prisoner of Azkaban, a character by > the name of Colonel Fubster was mentioned. Is he a wizard? > > jkrowling_bn: No, he's a Muggle neighbour of Aunt Marge's (poor > man)" > > Her choice of words and the addition of "poor man" at the end > strongly suggests that he is not Marge's boyfriend; he's just a > neighbor. > Whole heartedly in agreement. Marge is a pushy, nasty woman Imho. I can see her bullying an old man to do what she wanted... Especially if he is alone- widower, perhaps ( just speculating) I have a vision of her knowing him and his wife and being the obnoxious neighbour. Then with the death of Fubster's wife swooping in and taking advantage of him for her own needs. I read a great deal of control "freak" in her character and much need to be "top dog"- pardon the pun. Poor Fubster. -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From srsiriusblack at aol.com Mon Jan 6 04:27:13 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 23:27:13 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] How old is Voldemort?--Two different ages given! Message-ID: <18b.14280759.2b4a5fa1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49262 In a message dated 05/01/2003 22:47:07 Eastern Standard Time, noir_l at yahoo.com writes: > the last time the Chamber was open was fifty years ago (US edition > p.233) and Tom was 15 (the movie says 16, but in the book Tom says it > took him 5 years to find the Chamber, so he would be 15). So that > would make Voldemort 65 in Harry's second year. But in PoA, Harry's > third year, it says that Voldemort has been the most feared wizard > for "a hundred years" (US edition p. 6). First off... in his fifth year, he could be sixteen, right? Harry is 11 in his first year at Hogwarts.... ah, but that is just knitpicking. The comment "Most feared wizard in a hundred years" doesn't refer to just Voldemort. I think it should be taken in the context that in the past 100 years, he has been the most feared. See, if Voldie were the only evil wizard out there, he wouldn't have much of a following. So, it must be established that there have been wizards to fear in the past. :) -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Mon Jan 6 04:51:38 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 20:51:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] How old is Voldemort?--Two different ages given! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030106045138.56309.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49263 "noir_l " wrote: In Cos, Harry goes back fifty years and the last time the Chamber was open was fifty years ago (US edition p.233) and Tom was 15 (the movie says 16, but in the book Tom says it took him 5 years to find the Chamber, so he would be 15). Me: How do you figure that? If you start at Hogwarts when you're eleven and add five years, that would make sixteen. I see no discrepancy. If Harry does indeed go back fifty years, and it's not just a ballpark figure (and if we are to believe that he started his second year in 1992, since Nick was celebrating the 500th anniversary of his death in 1492 on that Halloween), that would mean Harry sees events from 1943 in the diary (two years before Dumbledore defeats Grindelwald) and Tom would therefore be born in 1927. This would also mean that Tom finished school in 1945, the same year Grindelwald fell, which may or may not be significant. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From srsiriusblack at aol.com Mon Jan 6 06:04:56 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (Oona ) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 06:04:56 -0000 Subject: Invisibility Cloaks and Lupin the man/werewolf(PoA time travel James/Remus thing) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49264 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan Atherton" wrote: > >Susan: > > If Mad Eye Moody's magical eye and the Marauder's Map can see Harry > in his Cloak, it would indicate that the Cloak is not completely > impervious. (It's been hinted in PS and CoS that Dumbledore can even > see through it, magical eye or not) So do the same old laws of physics > that bind the rest of us bind someone wearing a Cloak? If they can be > felt and touched, they obviously don't disappear, they are just > concealed. So do they cast a shadow? And if, as I suspect, they do, > why doesn't anyone notice?! > I have some ideas about this. Muggles only see what they want to see- i.e. they miss things like houses jumping out of the way and some of the strangeness that is not always protected by magical charms and the like in the WW- to steal a line from Beetlejuice- "Mortals usually do not see the strange and unusual, I myself, am strange and unusal." SO with that line of thought, I would think that there are objects such as the Invisibility cloak that are not always seen by wizards, as they may be strange and unusual and not something that wizards/witches are always looking for in every day life. Dumbledore, a great wizard, would after spending a lifetime teaching children and fighting against evil would most likely always have an open eye for these types of things/events. OR, on another line of thought, Dumbledore seems to me to have *some* kind of yet-to-be-explained psychic powers. Maybe he can sense the presence of those in Invisibility Cloaks, as that is most likely some explanation for the eyeless baddies, aka the Dementors. Invisibility Cloaks don't make the person disappear. They only make the person appear to be "not there". With that type of thinking it might be possible for the cloak in some strange magically way not to cast a shadow, and if it does, maybe there is some magic at work around that, as well. The only ways I can think of your average wizard, or even muggle for that matter, to become suspicious is by sound, i.e. breathing, footsteps and the like, touch- running into something solid when there isn't something solid there, or by having some kind of sense. Whether that sense be a learnt one or a natural one is yet to be seen.... -Snuffles From uncmark at yahoo.com Mon Jan 6 06:07:32 2003 From: uncmark at yahoo.com (Mark D. ) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 06:07:32 -0000 Subject: Snape's Greasy Hair... wizard tinfoil? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49265 I've gotten into arguments about wizarding attitudes towards beauty and haircare (Hermione used a wizard hair gel in GofF and Lockhart talked about hair care products) but still wondered about Snape. Almost all references refer to his hair as greasy and I have to wonder why a wizard as self-centered as Snape comes off as would allow his hair to be greasy. I got a brainstorm while watching a scifi movie where a streetperson wore a tinfoil hat to 'keep aliens from reading his thoughts'. Could Snape's grease be a wizard equivalent? Consider that Snape was a spy against Valdemort, who has demonstarated some degree of mindreading. How would Snape, a potions master, keep his thoughts private? Suppose he brewed a potion that shielded a wizard's thoughts from Voldemort's mind-reading and possibly shielded from imperio. On the downside, it would make your hair greasy, but Snape would at least keep his head. As for why Snape still grases his hair, he knew Valdemort was not gone and still knew deatheaters were active. Opinions? Uncmark From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Jan 6 08:14:30 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 08:14:30 -0000 Subject: How old is Voldemort?--Two different ages given! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49266 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "noir_l " wrote: > noir_l/Lindsay: > > Hi There, > > ...edited... In Cos, Harry goes back fifty years and the last time > the Chamber was open was fifty years ago (US edition p.233) and Tom > was 15 ...edited... So that would make Voldemort 65 in Harry's second > year. But in PoA, Harry's third year, > it says that Voldemort has > been the most feared wizard for "a hundred years" (US edition p. 6). > Is this just a mistake made ...? > > -Lindsay bboy_mn: You are caught in the turn of a phrase. The reference to 100 years is not to Voldemort's lifetime, but to the time during which no more evil wizard has existed. Illustration: To say that the transistor was the greatest invention in a hundred years, does not say that the transitor has been around for a hundred year. It merely says that no invention during that time period was as significant as the transistor. The same use and context applies to the 100 year reference regarding Voldemort. Your first assessment of his age is correct, plus or minus the one year in dispute. (V=age 65 or 66). Just a thought. bboy_mn From bloubet at incanmonkey.com Mon Jan 6 08:41:09 2003 From: bloubet at incanmonkey.com (bloubet at incanmonkey.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 01:41:09 -0700 (MST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Date for OotP In-Reply-To: <1041811629.5756.33079.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <1041842468.44204@incanmonkey.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49267 I work part-time at a bookstore, and we've received official notice that OotP will be released sometime between February and May. OK, so it doesn't tell us yet when to take vacation to stand in line, but at least we know it'll be out by May. And if they've released a date, my guess is that JKR's given the final draft to the publisher. Woohoo! bel From jasnyder at intrex.net Mon Jan 6 06:59:05 2003 From: jasnyder at intrex.net (Jen Snyder) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 00:59:05 -0600 Subject: Book 5 words Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49268 Hello everyone, I've been lurking on this list for some time, and greatly enjoying the conversations. I'm curious what people think about the nine words Sotheby's revealed off the 93-word outline of Order of the Phoenix that was auctioned off a few weeks ago. The nine words are: "Ron ... broom ... sacked ... house-elf ... new ... teacher ... dies ... sorry". Any predictions or theorizing? Jen From noir_l at yahoo.com Mon Jan 6 05:39:34 2003 From: noir_l at yahoo.com (noir_l ) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 05:39:34 -0000 Subject: How old is Voldemort?--Two different ages given! In-Reply-To: <20030106045138.56309.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49269 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barb wrote: > How do you figure that? If you start at Hogwarts when you're eleven and add five years, that would make sixteen. I was counting beginning in year one. So sometime during year one Tom discovered who he was and began looking for the chamber. He would be 11 (1st year), 12 (2nd year),....up to 15 (5th year--therefore searching for 5 years). But as I mentioned in another post we don't know when Tom was born so he could have been 16 like you mention. Thanks for your reply! -Lindsay :) From noir_l at yahoo.com Mon Jan 6 05:23:49 2003 From: noir_l at yahoo.com (lindsay L) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 21:23:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] How old is Voldemort?--Two different ages given! In-Reply-To: <18b.14280759.2b4a5fa1@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030106052349.18719.qmail@web11404.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49270 srsiriusblack at aol.com wrote: Yes, I guess that could be right. I was just thinking that Harry will be 15 in his fifth year, but that doesn't mean Tom was--we don't know when Tom's birthday was. I'm not totally sure, but I see your point. The way it was worded is ambiguous. To me, the book seemed that it was referring to Voldemort for it stated: "They had been murdered [Harry's parents], murdered by the most feared Dark wizard for a hundred years, Lord Voldemort" (6). It didn't say "one of the most" but "the most." I can see what your saying and you could be right, but the way it is stated could also mean just Voldemort too. I think it's just one of those sentences that can have a couple of meanings depending on how you read it. Thanks for your reply! -Lindsay :) From tahewitt at yahoo.com Mon Jan 6 03:18:24 2003 From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 19:18:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Harry's tears In-Reply-To: <1041811629.5756.33079.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030106031824.32267.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49271 bel wrote: > I wonder if Harry is going to prove to have healing powers related to those > eyes of his. Or if the world will only be healed when Harry can finally break > down and cry... I was really hoping Harry would have a good sob at the end of GoF. Hell, I needed emotional release after reading it, I'm sure Harry needed some as well! As for his tears having some importance later, that could be true. However, Harry DID cry once in the books. I can't remember where, I don't have the books with me. I'm thinking it was in CoS. It was when he was talking to Dumbledore, in the infermary (I think). Dumbledore says something and then politely turns his head as he notices Harry wiping a tear. Granted, it's not sobbing were talkng about here, but he has shed tears. Tyler __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From lunalarea at hotmail.com Mon Jan 6 04:41:21 2003 From: lunalarea at hotmail.com (Verin Haley ) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 04:41:21 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasley, weak link In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49272 Looking at everyone at the Burrow, the only problem I see *is* Percy. First off, he is overly dedicated to the MoM. "He'd never come home, if dad didn't make him" ( please forgive the paraphrase). I think that JKR gives us a hint that this situation could have changed by the end of GoF. Percy is incredibly dedicated to his work at the Ministry through all of GoF. IIRC, however, the last time we hear of Percy is right before the third task when Bill and Molly have come to visit Harry. (This is after Crouch's disappearance and death have been made known to the Ministry.) Harry asks how Percy is, and Bill responds, "Not good." Molly explains, "He's very upset. The Ministry wants to keep Mr. Crouch's disappearance quiet, but Percy's been hauled in for questioning about the instructions Mr. Crouch has been sending in. They seem to think there's a chance they weren't genuinely written by him. Percy's been under a lot of strain. They're not letting him fill in for Mr. Crouch as the fifth judge tonight. Cornelius Fudge is going to be doing it." (GoF American ed. hardcover 617-618) Essentially, Percy's been called to account. He's been "hauled in for questioning," which to my mind sounds a great deal like an interrogation. They're accusing him of following orders that may not have been genuine (and perhaps with complicity in the whole mess), and they've pulled him out of his position of authority by not letting him fill in as the judge (like he had been doing). He's been suspended, in a manner of speaking. I think that shows very clearly the Ministry's lack of trust in Percy, and Percy is almost certainly aware of that. (While he may not have taken issue with it, his reaction when his family hears Crouch calling him "Weatherby" shows he is not oblivious to the insults.) I'm not sure how he could see it as anything other than a slap in the face (even if he convinces himself that he "deserved" it as it came from a position of authority). IMHO, this questioning -- especially the high minded and accusitory way it's being handled from the tone of Molly's explanation and the statements that Percy is "under stress" -- could easily be perceived by Percy as a betrayal. He has trusted them, put his soul into his work, and they respond with a slap in the face. It's the type of situation that shakes to the core a person's faith in an institution. It can cause fairly substantial personality changes even if the person -- Percy, in this case -- understands perfectly the rational behind and even, intellectually, agrees. It still *feels* like betrayal. While it may not be enough to make Percy *dis*loyal to the ministry, I believe it's enough to make him -- at the very least -- question that loyalty. I tend to think, especially given this, that he will side with his parents, not Fudge. While his family, the twins in particular, may tease and ridicule him, we are shown no point where they actually betray his trust. (Whether their dismissive and exclusive treatment of him can be considered "betrayal" in its own right is another argument, but I don't think, at this point in Percy's life, that it is at all unexpected, which the Ministry's review would have been for him.) -Verin From srsiriusblack at aol.com Mon Jan 6 11:23:04 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 06:23:04 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Date for OotP Message-ID: <6c.282e32de.2b4ac118@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49273 In a message dated 06/01/2003 03:42:22 Eastern Standard Time, bloubet at incanmonkey.com writes: > I work part-time at a bookstore, and we've received official notice that > OotP will be released sometime between February and May. Bel, you are officially my personally goddess. YAY!!! Thank you! I had heard many, many mixed reports via web, bookstore cronies, and word of mouth... you have truly made my day!!!!!! ***smooches*** a VERY happy and hoping for her birthday, 14 feb, Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From katgirl at lava.net Mon Jan 6 11:23:57 2003 From: katgirl at lava.net (booklovinggirl ) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 11:23:57 -0000 Subject: Waddiwasi Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49274 "This is a useful little spell," he [Lupin] told the class over his shoulder. "Please watch closely." He raised the wand to shoulder height, said, "Waddiwasi!" and pointed it at Peeves. With the force of a bullet, the wad of chewing gum shot out of the keyhole and straight down Peeves's left nostril... -Prisoner of Azkaban, page 131, American hardcover. Why is there a spell for shooting gum out of keyholes and into Peeves's nose? I suppose such a spell could exist, but how would Remus know about it, and why would he regard it as important? I haven't looked much, but I couldn't find any Latin roots for Waddiwasi. The only thing I can think of is that the "wad" at the beginning-does that refer to the gum? But that makes the other question even more important-why does Remus see it as useful? I don't think he means for his students to arm themselves against the dark forces of the world with Juicy Fruit. Why, then? Maybe the spell is some equivalent to a gun. The wand was aimed at Peeves, and the gum has "the force of a bullet" But on PoA, pg. 38, American Hardcover, a gun is described as "A kind of metal wand that Muggles use to kill each other." Why doesn't it mention the Waddiwasi spell? Why not, "A kind of metal wand Muggles use to kill each other-similar to the Waddiwasi spell." or something like that? Has the Wizarding World has sunk to such depths that they need to portray Muggles as savages that kill their own kind, making it a bit too much of a reality check if a spell is compared to a gun? -Katherine From srsiriusblack at aol.com Mon Jan 6 11:29:14 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 06:29:14 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] How old is Voldemort?--Two different ages given! Message-ID: <144.6f983ed.2b4ac28a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49275 In a message dated 06/01/2003 04:19:10 Eastern Standard Time, noir_l at yahoo.com writes: > his first year at Hogwarts.... ah, but that is just knitpicking.> > Me: Again.. Harry was 11 when he *began* his first year... so fifth years would be between 15 and 16 in the beginning of the year and 16-17 by the end. > Yes, I guess that could be right. I was just thinking that Harry will be 15 > in his fifth year, but that doesn't mean Tom was--we don't know when Tom's > birthday was. > > > Voldemort.> > > I'm not totally sure, but I see your point. The way it was worded is > ambiguous. To me, the book seemed that it was referring to Voldemort for it > stated: "They had been murdered [Harry's parents], murdered by the most > feared Dark wizard for a hundred years, Lord Voldemort" (6). It didn't say > "one of the most" but "the most." I can see what your saying and you could > be right, but the way it is stated could also mean just Voldemort too. I > think it's just one of those sentences that can have a couple of meanings > depending on how you read it. Ok... hmmm.. how to put this... Americans as I have noted ( and I've lived here a while ~ 12 years) seem to have a different interpretation of language that others. Not a bad thing, mind you.... To me I still stand by what I said that Voldie is indeed the most feared in 100 years, but there have been others on the Dark Side.. this statement also elludes to others in WW history who were just as pwerful and frightening... It is a mere interpretation of written word, as far as I am concerned. Having taught in the states, I understand the interpretation, but I still do stand by my own.... not that I am some kind of spectacular interpreter of the meaning... BUT! I can say having read many times both the US and UK versions of each book, ours (UK) are a wee bit different and speak better to me...... -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From srsiriusblack at aol.com Mon Jan 6 11:32:24 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 06:32:24 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy Weasley, weak link Message-ID: <134.197ce3a3.2b4ac348@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49276 In a message dated 06/01/2003 04:31:59 Eastern Standard Time, lunalarea at hotmail.com writes: > Essentially, Percy's been called to account. He's been "hauled in for > questioning," which to my mind sounds a great deal like an > interrogation. ooOOOOOoooo definitely a finer point, overlooked on by me...... Perhaps this strain MAY yeild the Percy many of desire seeing... yeat, Weatherby (smug grin) still has his loyalties. I imagine we will hear more of this in book 5? Let us hope. (Again, all I say is personal opinion... most of the time I pray JKR sets it right and differently) -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jan 6 11:12:41 2003 From: amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk (amy_marblefeet ) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 11:12:41 -0000 Subject: The one who has left me forever... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49277 I'm new here so I am not sure if this has been discussed before. When I was re-reading GoF for the seventh time I came across this curious comment by Mr Weasly in ch. 9 The Dark Mark (pg 128). He says to Hermione "...it was only death eaters who ever knew how to conjure it. I'd be very surprised if the person who did it hadn't been a Death Eater once, even if they're not now..." It is made quite clear all through the four books that the Weasly's in particular do not believe many of the redemption, devil-made-me-do- it stories told by ex-death eaters trying to save their own skin, especially the Malfoys. If this is true why would Arthur even consider that at least one of them was not a death eater now? Could he be talking about Severus Snape? If he is not, could Voldemort have been talking about someone else in the graveyard scene? I await your comments. Amy (who waits patiently for book five and for Snapes past to turn around and bite him on the ass, as pasts tend to do) From heidit at netbox.com Mon Jan 6 11:56:38 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 06:56:38 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The one who has left me forever... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <025d01c2b57a$ac33d1f0$0301a8c0@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 49278 > -----Original Message----- > From: amy_marblefeet > > I'm new here so I am not sure if this has been discussed before. Things close to it have been discussed (see the wonderful Snape FAQ (http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/snape.html) for a discussion of whether he is the one who is "too cowerdly" or who has left Voldemort forever) but I think you've brought a new facet to the discussion - or at least one that hasn't been covered in a while. > > [Arthur] says to Hermione "...it was only death eaters who ever knew how to > conjure it. I'd be very surprised if the person who did it hadn't > been a Death Eater once, even if they're not now..." > > It is made quite clear all through the four books that the Weasly's > in particular do not believe many of the redemption, > devil-made-me-do- it stories told by ex-death eaters trying > to save their own skin, > especially the Malfoys. If this is true why would Arthur even > consider that at least one of them was not a death eater now? > > Could he be talking about Severus Snape? If he is not, could > Voldemort have been talking about someone else in the graveyard scene? It's possible that Arthur thinks that while people who claimed they were under Imperio were likely lying, there are others who were Death Eaters - admitted Death Eaters - who later renounced Voldemort without claiming that they hadn't been acting of their own free will. Karkaroff is one such possibility - we see him in his hearing making it clear that he's stepping away from his fellow Death Eaters when he names them in hopes of reducing his own sentence. In other words, he might feel that Karkaroff likely can't still be a Death Eater after exposing the others. There may have been others who passed information to the Ministry or to Dumbledore as well - and Arthur may be suggesting that such people might've created the Dark Mark at the World Cup to upset, scare or anger the Death Eaters - much in the way that Barty actually did. Good question - looking forward to seeing other comments on this! heidi From srsiriusblack at aol.com Mon Jan 6 11:56:28 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 06:56:28 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] The one who has left me forever... Message-ID: <7a.34fbf64a.2b4ac8ec@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49279 In a message dated 06/01/2003 06:43:07 Eastern Standard Time, amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk writes: > > I'm new here so I am not sure if this has been discussed before. > When I was re-reading GoF for the seventh time I came across this > curious comment by Mr Weasly in ch. 9 The Dark Mark (pg 128). > > He says to Hermione "...it was only death eaters who ever knew how to > conjure it. I'd be very surprised if the person who did it hadn't > been a Death Eater once, even if they're not now..." > > It is made quite clear all through the four books that the Weasly's > in particular do not believe many of the redemption, devil-made-me-do- > it stories told by ex-death eaters trying to save their own skin, > especially the Malfoys. If this is true why would Arthur even > consider that at least one of them was not a death eater now? > > Could he be talking about Severus Snape? If he is not, could > Voldemort have been talking about someone else in the graveyard scene? > > I await your comments. > > Amy > (who waits patiently for book five and for Snapes past to turn around > and bite him on the ass, as pasts tend to do) Hi Amy and welcome to the discussion...... ok.. I read the title, first off and thought you were speaking of Snape- "th eone who left me forever" for he is the ONLY one I have found to fit inside Volide's inner DE circle who does not appear with explanation. I.E> Karakoff is the one who flees in fright and will be punished... Barty Crouch, ie Moddy+Crouch is fairly explained in GoF as the one who conjures the mark. He *is* Voldie's loyal servant at Hogwarts.... evil, evil evil B. Crouch Jr. However, I broght this up before... BCJr never leaves the service of Voldie...... Severus does. There is speculation here as to whether or not Snape is a double agent ( and if I had the gumption I *might* be able to find the posts.... sorry to be a PITA but you'll have to look back a bit) Personally, I don't see my darling searie Snape as being such.... He made the mistake of becoming a follower of Voldie and has paid... see the ending of GoF when he and Sirius are revealed to one another. Snape on his own is very complex and there is much left to us to be learnt about him... check the "Snape" headed posts.. the folks here have some greta ideas and insight... The reason Snape will *not* be considered a DE is clear... Even Arthur Weasley respects Dumbledore's opinions. Granted, we do NOT know what happened to make Dumbledore testify on Snape's behalf, nor do we know, yet, what really turned Severus to the Light Side, but I, for one, *trust* Dumbledore. well that, and I love him But Bart Courch Jr. conjured the mark and he is established as EVIL!!! evil evil evil. hope this helps. -one tired Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com Mon Jan 6 11:41:06 2003 From: lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com (lindseyharrisst ) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 11:41:06 -0000 Subject: Muggle-borns In-Reply-To: <004e01c2b4e8$7cba6d40$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49280 --Taryn, with her first post: > I would say that the definition of Lucius and the Death Eaters >would be similar to that of the Nazi's. After all, in CoS, Tom >refers to Harry as a half-blood (when quoting the similarities >between them) even though his mother was a witch. It seemed that his >mother being muggle-born was enough for Voldemort to think of Harry >as "contaminated," as it were--again, similar to the definition of a >Jew during the Holocaust. However, I don't know how far back this >would go, whether having one muggle-born grandparent would make you >a half-blood, or a great-grandparent. But, at least to Voldemort >(and his opinion on this is probably shared by the DE's), having one >muggle-born parent marks you as a half-blood, even if you are, by >literal definition, a pure-blood. Thank you for your thoughts and many congratulations on your first post;)I had forgotten Voldemort called Harry a mudblood in CoS and this leads me to think, as has been suggested, that the main point is that a person is a mudblood if they are *known* to have any muggle blood at all. If Haryy had not been famous, it is doubtful anyone would be able to pin him as a mudblood. Snapesangel From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Mon Jan 6 13:09:18 2003 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:09:18 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Date for OotP References: <6c.282e32de.2b4ac118@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49281 Oh glory be to JKR and in the beds let there be peace for a new potter books will be out soon and wonder shone again will we be pleased with what we get or will the fanfics be best will we want it after the wait or will we have given up [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mrflynn6 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 6 13:26:23 2003 From: mrflynn6 at yahoo.com (mrflynn6 ) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 13:26:23 -0000 Subject: Date for OotP In-Reply-To: <1041842468.44204@incanmonkey.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49282 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, bloubet at i... wrote: > I work part-time at a bookstore, and we've received official notice that OotP will be released sometime between February and May. > > OK, so it doesn't tell us yet when to take vacation to stand in line, but at least we know it'll be out by May. And if they've released a date, my guess is that JKR's given the final draft to the publisher. Woohoo! > > bel ---------------------------------- According to the 2002 financial report for Scholastic, Inc., they expect to publish the OoP early in their 2004 fiscal year, which begins on June 1, 2003. This is close to what you have been told, it seems. Hopefully we will have confirmation in the next month or so. In an earlier article, can't remember which, they stated it was about 6 months from recieving a completed manuscript to publication. We should be hearing soon, if these dates are correct. Gretchen From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Mon Jan 6 15:22:42 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 07:22:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How old is Voldemort?--Two different ages given! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030106152242.65503.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49283 "noir_l " wrote: I was counting beginning in year one. So sometime during year one Tom discovered who he was and began looking for the chamber. He would be 11 (1st year), 12 (2nd year),....up to 15 (5th year--therefore searching for 5 years). Yes, but at the end of the first year of searching, he would probably be 12 (depending on when his birthday falls). At the end of the second year, he would be 13, etc. If he has searched for five years, while he would be 15 at the beginning of the fifth year of searching, assuming that his birthday falls before the end of the summer term, he would be 16 by the end of the fifth year of searching. It is, however, unclear as to whether Myrtle was killed before or after the summer of 1943 (if we assume Tom showed Harry events from that year through the medium of the diary). If it was before the summer, then Hagrid was in third year when Tom was in fifth year, and so he would have been born in 1929 (two years younger than Tom); if it was the autumn of 1943, Hagrid could have been in third year when Tom was in sixth. (b. 1930). The first scenario seems more likely, as, IIRC, Hagrid implied that he attended three years (or nearly three years) of school before his expulson, whereas the other scenario would have had him kicked out before his third year had barely begun. (The other possibility is that he was kicked out early in his fourth year, so he attended three years and was kicked out "after third year" because it occurred early in his fourth.) The other likely reason for this timing is JKR's fondness for "important" things to happen near the end of the summer term (which is how she has structured all of the books so far). --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cindysphynx at comcast.net Mon Jan 6 16:14:12 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C. ) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 16:14:12 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: OoP Release Date Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49284 Hi, all, Just a quick reminder from Hexquarters. Remember that discussion of rumors of the OoP release date should be sent to our sister list, OT- Chatter: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/ Reliable news reports of the release date should go to Announcements: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements/?yguid=100100985 Thanks, everyone. Cindy --Your HPfGU Magical Moderator Team From mb2910 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 6 16:27:33 2003 From: mb2910 at hotmail.com (Meira B) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 18:27:33 +0200 Subject: Waddiwasi Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49285 Katherine wrote: Why is there a spell for shooting gum out of keyholes and into Peeves's nose? I suppose such a spell could exist, but how would Remus know about it, and why would he regard it as important? Now me: I always thought that Waddiwasi was a sort of propelling spell. Not specific to shooting wads of chewing gum from a keyhole and up a poltergeist's nose, but something more general than that. Maybe some sort of an opposite to the Accio spell. It could also be a spell to un-clog things. Or maybe it was a spell that the Marauders have found in an obscure (or maybe not so obscure) spell book, as an aid for their mischeif making :). Katherine again: Maybe the spell is some equivalent to a gun. The wand was aimed at Peeves, and the gum has "the force of a bullet" But on PoA, pg. 38, American Hardcover, a gun is described as "A kind of metal wand that Muggles use to kill each other." Why doesn't it mention the Waddiwasi spell? Why not, "A kind of metal wand Muggles use to kill each other-similar to the Waddiwasi spell." or something like that? Has the Wizarding World has sunk to such depths that they need to portray Muggles as savages that kill their own kind, making it a bit too much of a reality check if a spell is compared to a gun? And now me again: I think that a gun was described as "A kind of metal wand that Muggles use to kill each other" not because the WW doesn't like comparing a spell to a gun, but to explain what a gun is. I assume that probably not everyone knows what 'Waddiwasi' is. Besides, if they would compare a spell with a gun, I'd say it would be more suitable to compare it with Avada Kedavra. Meira. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8 is here: Try it free* for 2 months http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup From karnasaur at yahoo.com Mon Jan 6 15:58:02 2003 From: karnasaur at yahoo.com (Kristjan Arnason) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 07:58:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Waddiwasi In-Reply-To: <1041857887.2715.90633.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030106155802.27907.qmail@web10407.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49286 Katherine wrote: "This is a useful little spell," he [Lupin] told the class over his shoulder. "Please watch closely." He raised the wand to shoulder height, said, "Waddiwasi!" and pointed it at Peeves. With the force of a bullet, the wad of chewing gum shot out of the keyhole and straight down Peeves's left nostril... -Prisoner of Azkaban, page 131, American hardcover. Why is there a spell for shooting gum out of keyholes and into Peeves's nose? I suppose such a spell could exist, but how would Remus know about it, and why would he regard it as important?" Easy! It's useful because it gets rid of Peeves! This is a useful thing ti know how to do at Hogwarts. And Remus would know it because he was a Maurauder. Kristjan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From dom-blokey at supanet.com Mon Jan 6 17:41:31 2003 From: dom-blokey at supanet.com (Dom McDermott) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 17:41:31 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Waddiwasi References: Message-ID: <006d01c2b5aa$da8e45a0$804528d5@Blokey> No: HPFGUIDX 49287 Katherine noted: > I haven't looked much, but I couldn't find any Latin roots for > Waddiwasi. The only thing I can think of is that the "wad" at the > beginning-does that refer to the gum? > According to the Lexicon (god of all HP sources): a.. The "useful spell" that Lupin was showing them was undoubtedly the "wasi" part, in this case with a target word attached, "wad." Again we see how important intention is to magic, since the wad was directed into Peeves' nose by intent with the "go there" part of the spell. In another situation, the spell might be "stolawasi" to send a robe into a student's trunk, but it would only work if the student focused his mind on where he wanted the robe to go. a.. "vadd" Sw. a soft mass + "vas y" Fr. go there Dom From stormlass at yahoo.com Mon Jan 6 15:56:41 2003 From: stormlass at yahoo.com (snapesrighthand) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 07:56:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Waddiwasi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030106155641.20384.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49288 --- "booklovinggirl " wrote: > "This is a useful little spell," he [Lupin] > told the class over his > shoulder. "Please watch closely." > He raised the wand to shoulder height, said, > "Waddiwasi!" and pointed > it at Peeves. > With the force of a bullet, the wad of chewing > gum shot out of the > keyhole and straight down Peeves's left > nostril... > -Prisoner of Azkaban, page 131, American > hardcover. > > Why is there a spell for shooting gum out of > keyholes and into > Peeves's nose? I suppose such a spell could > exist, but how would > Remus know about it, and why would he regard it > as important? Alexs' response He said it was useful. Removing something from where it should not be? He was a student at Hogwarts so maybe he meant it is useful against the poltergeist. Peeves proves to be a menace to the students as well as the staff. I think you are just over analyzing. Just take it in the context it is. Funny! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Mon Jan 6 18:48:43 2003 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Iris=20FT?=) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 19:48:43 +0100 (CET) Subject: Seven Pillars of Wisdom ?(Re: Date for OotP) In-Reply-To: <6c.282e32de.2b4ac118@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030106184843.16180.qmail@web21503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49289 Hi, and happy new year to you all. I haven't been posting for a long time, though I 've been reading each day what was happening on the list. One post scriptum is very interesting. srsiriusblack at aol.com wrote: "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom Me: Why do you send this with every post? Do you think there's a connection between the Harry Potter series and T.E.Lawrence? Or at least an echo? I'd like to know... After all, Lawrence's fate did inspire Frank Herbert or George Lucas. Any thoughts about this possibility? Thanks if someone answers! Iris Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais ! Testez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Jan 6 19:10:48 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 19:10:48 -0000 Subject: How old is Voldemort?--Two different ages given! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49290 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "noir_l " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barb > wrote: > > > How do you figure that? If you start at Hogwarts when you're > eleven and add five years, that would make sixteen. > > > I was counting beginning in year one. So sometime during year one Tom > discovered who he was and began looking for the chamber. He would be > 11 (1st year), 12 (2nd year),....up to 15 (5th year--therefore > searching for 5 years). But as I mentioned in another post we don't > know when Tom was born so he could have been 16 like you mention. > Thanks for your reply! > > -Lindsay :) bboy_mn: Well, this whole age thing is kind of a minor point. Apparently, Riddle was in his fifth year when he 'figured out' the Chamber of Sercrets. So was that at the beginning of the year or the end of the fifth year? Harry's birthday is in July, so Harry was 11 when he started his first year and 11 when he ended his first year. Ron on the other hand, has his birthday in March (I think), so he was 11 at the beginning of the year and 12 at the end of his first year. We know at the beginning of Goblet of Fire that some students are 17. They have to be 17 in order to compete in the Tri-Wizards Tournement. So this is at the beginning of the year so, presumably, they will be 18 (or very very close to it) at the end of that year. I was also under the impression that some of these 17 year olds were 6th year students (then again, maybe not). At any rate we know Riddle was FIFTH YEAR plus 50 years; that would make him either 15 or 16 depending on when during that year you decided to measure his age; so his current age, in the story, would be 65/66. Relative to the original post 1 year one way or the other isn't that important when you are trying to determine whether someone is 65/66 or whether they are +100 years old. Without knowing Riddles birthday and possibley birth year, we can't say positively how old he was at any give time during that 5th year at Hogwarts. Just a thought. bboy_mn From Ali at zymurgy.org Mon Jan 6 19:16:57 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali ) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 19:16:57 -0000 Subject: How old is Voldemort?--Two different ages given! In-Reply-To: <144.6f983ed.2b4ac28a@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49291 Snuffles said:- >>>Again.. Harry was 11 when he *began* his first year... so fifth years would be between 15 and 16 in the beginning of the year and 16- 17 by the end.<<< Harry will indeed be 15 at the beginning of his 5th year. Canon does allow for some confusion as to the ages of other kids at Hogwarts. However, if we are to follow the English/Welsh school pattern which appears to be favoured by JKR, then all 5th years would be 15 at the beginning of the 5th year, and most 16 by the end of the summer term. I do not quite understand why 5th years would be between 16 and 17 at the end of the year. Much of the discussion over ages is centred around Hermione's age - whether she is older or younger than Harry. However, even supposing that Hogwart's age cut-off is different to its academic year, and Hermione is younger than Harry, then this would mean that students were between the ages of 15 and 16 at the end of summer term, and not 16 and 17. Ali From lupinesque at yahoo.com Mon Jan 6 19:19:38 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z ) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 19:19:38 -0000 Subject: How old is Voldemort?--Two different ages given! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49292 bboy wrote: > At any rate we know Riddle was FIFTH YEAR plus 50 years; that would > make him either 15 or 16 depending on when during that year you > decided to measure his age; so his current age, in the story, would be > 65/66. Add to that the fact that when you're dealing with round numbers like "the Chamber was opened fifty years ago," you could well be off by a few years. It might mean the Chamber was opened 47 years ago, or 52 years ago. So Voldemort's age is slightly indeterminate. Shall we call it "a certain age" and allow him to preserve his vanity? Amy Z ------------------------------------------- "Cool, sir!" said Dean Thomas in amazement. "Thank you, Dean," said Professor Lupin. ------------------------------------------- From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Jan 6 19:40:27 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 19:40:27 -0000 Subject: How old is Voldemort?--Two different ages given! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49293 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z " wrote: > bboy wrote: > > > At any rate we know Riddle was FIFTH YEAR plus 50 years; that > > would make him either 15 or 16 depending on when during that year > > you decided to measure his age; so his current age, in the story, > > would be 65/66. > > Add to that the fact that when you're dealing with round numbers > like "the Chamber was opened fifty years ago," you could well be off > by a few years. It might mean the Chamber was opened 47 years ago, > or 52 years ago. So Voldemort's age is slightly indeterminate. > Shall we call it "a certain age" and allow him to preserve his vanity? > > Amy Z bboy_mn: True... Absolutely 100% true. But relative to the original post, the point is that Voldemort is in his 60's not his 100's. I will add however (although, I wouldn't bet my life on it) that the Riddle Diary had a date on it. It was a dairy for a year 50 years ago. That would seem to confirm that the 50 year figure is accurate. Although, I admit there is still an element of uncertainty. bboy_mn From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon Jan 6 19:56:48 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr ) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 19:56:48 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasley, weak link In-Reply-To: <102.22ee74b2.2b4a5df1@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49294 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, srsiriusblack at a... wrote: > In a message dated 05/01/2003 22:19:59 Eastern Standard Time, > annemehr at y... writes: > > The ray of > > hope that I see in this is that Percy is very likely to be forewarned > > of all that's happened *before* anyone from Fudge gets around to > > giving him any orders, and that we have seen Percy working with his > > father against DE's already (I'll be very happy to take that as > > foreshadowing as long as I can!) > : > I thought about this as well... Honestly, I *wish* Bill had not Disapparated > before Sirius revealed himself. That would save me a lot of worry. ( But, > then I am in the twisted Severus/Sirius/Remus love triangle frame of mind as > I *do* so love them all... lol) Bill, again a character I seem to like a > great much, seems to have a head on his shoulders, and I doubnt hardly that > once Dumbledore has explained EVERYthing Bill, Charlie and Mr Weasley will > all be in line to stand beside Dumbledore- which of course means standing > beside Sirius. > > I still keep coming back to a problem with Percy. > Percy will probably have to make a crucial decision. I want Percy to break > free of his mindset. I want him to prove a hero and a fun loving Weasley. I > keep my fingers crossed for him, for I, like you, was also a rule follower... > Annemehr: First, just to forstall any "You *can't* Disapparate from Hogwarts" posts -- no, Bill just nipped over to Hogsmeade and Disapparated from there! ;) As far as Percy goes, yes he may have been more disposed to trust in Good!Sirius if he had his older brother Bill's eyewitness account to attest to him, but remember that Molly was present to see Sirius transform. After all, Molly seems to be the Weasley whose personality best matches Percy's, so he may well listen to her. What worries me more about Sirius' safety is the fact that Dumbledore sent him off to alert the "old crowd" -- and just what the heck do you think Mundungus Fletcher might do when confronted with Sirius Black?!! Do you think Sirius might think to write notes and deliver them in dog form? Would anyone believe the notes if he did? Annemehr hoping JKR slips something about this into the beginning of OoP From alicit at aol.com Mon Jan 6 20:05:02 2003 From: alicit at aol.com (alicit at aol.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 15:05:02 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Greasy Hair... wizard tinfoil? Message-ID: <185.14baeab3.2b4b3b6e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49295 In a message dated 1/6/2003 1:08:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, uncmark at yahoo.com writes: > As for why Snape still grases his hair, he knew Valdemort was not > gone and still knew deatheaters were active. > > Opinions? > Hmmm, i think repelling alien brainwaves is a little farfetched. Actually, i just prefer the explanation in a Fanfic i read once, (by Kat & Tzigane, i believe) That his hair was greasey from spending all day with steaming culdrons. Plus, it helps add to his 'bad guy' look -Scheherazade, wears tinfoil to repel aliens [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alicit at aol.com Mon Jan 6 20:12:18 2003 From: alicit at aol.com (alicit at aol.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 15:12:18 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who Will Out Sirius? (was: Fubster/Harry's dream) Message-ID: <143.7044246.2b4b3d22@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49296 In a message dated 1/5/2003 10:56:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, jmmears at comcast.net writes: > >Well, JKR has tried, via Ron, to make us think that the Twins > might > >turn him in for the reward money. The Ron-haters allege that that > is > >Ron projecting his own greedy treason on them. I can't bring > myself > >to seriously suspect the Twins OR Ron. > > > I'm having trouble remembering where JKR tried to make us think that > the Twins might turn anyone in for the reward money. I do remember > Ron saying that Percy was so rules-bound (my paraphrase), that he > worried about him turning the twins in for trying to blackmail > Bagman. Was there an interview where she said something about this? Short note of cannon: Ron is the one who wants to turn Sirius in: "Would we get a reward if we caught him?" asked Ron. "It'd be good to have some more money--" PoA, American Hardcover edition, P61 After which he is quickly chastised by his father... -Scheherazade [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Sunnylove0 at aol.com Mon Jan 6 20:35:35 2003 From: Sunnylove0 at aol.com (Sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 15:35:35 EST Subject: A Strange Question/was:Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Spoiler in book 1? Message-ID: <84.67888ea.2b4b4297@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49297 In a message dated 1/5/2003 11:29:52 AM Mountain Standard Time, metslvr19 at yahoo.com writes: Voldemort somehow "forced" the dream on Harry, trying to persuade him to take up the Dark Side. This is an interesting thought, and it brings to mind something else: Has anyone thought (damned Yahoo archive!) that speaking Parseltongue is to some extent a *telepathic* ability? After all snakes are *deaf*. If TMR/LV was born with powerful telepathic powers (and transfered them accidentally to Baby!Harry) this might explain a lot of things: Parseltongue, ScarOVision, and why wizards don't apparate when Voldie comes knocking (sort of like the theory of snakes hypnotizing their prey, already discussed in that excellent symbolism post.) I'd like to hear anyone's input on this. The Queen of Serpents [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bkb042 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 6 20:43:30 2003 From: bkb042 at yahoo.com (Brian ) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 20:43:30 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore, Dippet, Grindlewald & Riddle Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49298 I've been following the "Voldemort's Age" thread and found myself back at those nagging questions: 1) How did Riddle find out that he was the Heir of Slytherin? and 2) How did he find out about the existance of the Chamber of Secrets? The answer to #2 would be comparatively easy; Just look in Hogwarts: A History. But that bit of information would be nothing more that an interesting bit of trivia UNLESS Riddle had already been informed of his distinguished ancestor. So who told him? We know that Dumbledore was the transfiguration teacher at the time of Riddle's tenure at Hogwarts, and we know that Dippet was Headmaster. We also know that there was a wizard named Grindlewald in existance at the time. 1945 was a year of cusp events. WWII ended. Riddle murdered his parents & began his final year at Hogwarts. Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald. Let's examine that final event: Defeated him how? We have no context on which to base the relationship between Dumbledore & Grindlewald other than the chocolate frog card that describes Grindelwald as a "dark wizard" So how was he defeated? An arm wrestling contest? A Wizards' Duel? Or perhaps a campaign for the Headmaster's position at Hogwarts? A possible theory is that Grindelwald was a member of the Hogwarts faculty (possibly Potions master, or DADA instructor) under Headmaster Dippet, when Riddle first started at Hogwarts. Grindlewald could have noticed something about the boy that led him to discover that Riddle was the Heir. A muggle-raised, wizard orphan (especially at that time), wouldn't have the same knowledge base as a child who'd been reared in the WW. Riddle needed a mentor. Grindelwald would fit that bill. 1945 rolls around, Dippet wants to retire. The board of Governers requests applicants from current faculty members. Dumbledore & Grindelwald both throw their names into the hat for the job. After evaluating both applicants, the governers decide that Grindelwald's "attitude & politics are regrettably at odds with the proud traditions of Hogwarts" and Dumbledore is appointed as Headmaster, DEFEATING Grindelwald's bid for the position. Grindelwald leaves the school, and based on his activities later, is branded a "dark wizard". If this theory proves out, it leaves another big question: Where is Grindelwald now? Whaddaya think? Brian From mb2910 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 6 20:47:36 2003 From: mb2910 at hotmail.com (Meira B) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 22:47:36 +0200 Subject: Ancient Magic and wands Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49299 Tzvi of Brooklyn wrote: Ancient Magic: Perhaps this type of magic is strictly a mind over magic operation. Lily is a mudblood and I would not think in the 7 years at Hogwarts you are taught lots of ancient magic such as self sacrifice. And maybe in the later years of the school they do happen to teach such spells/incantation/mind over magic solutions. We know that James and Lily were married right out of school and had Harry immediately after leading to the downfall of Voldermort when Harry was just a year old. Harry seems to have learned plenty in his first 4 years. Lily had 8(?) or so years to learn everything. Perhaps a Hogwarts diploma or O.W.L. degree is sort of like an enlightenment, or I've heard from this site and sorry for not searching each and every message, but as Hermione can make up spells with her knowledge of magic, in 7 years you learn enough that magic conforms to you and you are not limited by standard books of spells and the like. Now me: I don't think that such ancient magic, such as self-sacrifice, is taught at school. I don't think it's something that Lily was even aware that she knew. To me it souds like a very instinctive magic. Magic that isn't thought about consciously. I think that Hermione can make up new spells because she knows the latin words. for example, in 'Mobiliarbus' (PoA? Three Broomsticks? HRH overhear the Conversation about Harry's parents and Sirius? sorry for not bringing an exact quote), she can make up that spell because she knows what "mobil" is, and what "arbus" means. And if she needed to move a chair, she would say "mobili"+latin word for chair. But at the same time, we know that exact words are not required to perform a spell, they help focus the mind on the thing, yes, but in PS, when Ron says "Wingardium Leviosa" he knew that it's a spell that makes things fly, but he didn't know which part was the "feather" and which part was the "fly". But the effect was the desired effect, because he was focused on the object that he wanted to levitate. So if Hermione wanted to move that tree (or was it a plant? forgive me again for misquoting the book), but she didn't know what was latin for "tree", and she would have known the effect that "mobilicorpus" has on the object, she would have said "mobilicorpus" to the tree and it would have moved fine just the same. Same thing happens in the first task in GoF. When Harry accio-es his Firebolt, he says "accio Firebolt". He is thinking about the Firebolt, he has a clear image of it in his mind, and the "Firebolt" part of the spell is used to further focus his mind on the spell he wants to do. Tzvi of Brooklyn wrote: wands: Mr. Ollivander was telling Harry when he first walks into the shop that Lily favored a wand that was good for Charms while James favored a wand that was good for transfiguration. We can tell that wands might help to make the Witch or Wizard. Prof. McGonagall was probably destined to be a transfiguration teacher and her wand will probably be like James in that context. I wonder what all the other cores do. Now me: I think that it's not so much each different sort of core having a different trait (dragon-heartstring does this, unicorn hair does that, phoenix tail feather those another thing), but rather, it's the combination of wood + magical core + wizard (or witch) that has a different result each time, and that is what makes each wand different. Each wand reacts differently to each person. A large group of people could wave around one single wand, but the best results will only be achieved with one specific witch or wizard. Tzvi of Brooklyn wrote: As well, Mr. Ollivander had a single wand that lay on a faded cushion in the shop window. If I were him, of all the wands that I would make, mine would be the best. I mean, why not? Canon has little to say on the subject of Mr. Ollivander, but I think he is a more important character than we give him credit for. Now me: Of course he's important. Like Hagrid says (yet again, forgive my less-than-exact quotes, I only hope I'm not contaminating this post with TMTMNBN - is that how it's spelled?), Ollivander's is the best place to get a wand. Many important people bought their wands there, including James, Lily, Voldemort, Cedric, probably most of the Hogwarts population, and who knows who else. As for Ollivander keeping the best wand for himself, I don't think that there *is* a best or worst wand. Each wand is unique, and suits only one witch or wizard. What would be the point of keeping a wand if the wizard and it don't get along too well? And now a question that has been pesking me for some time now: We know that Witches and Wizards in Europe use latin for their spells (and probably the americans also). But suppose there is a magical community in Egypt, or it China (or anywhere else in the world, India, for example), what would be the language of their spells? Would spells work as efficiently if using regular, daily words in the local language or are the latin words used to help the wizard (or witch) to fully focus their minds in the task at hand? Meira (who can't believe she has managed to survive a whole semester at the university... Go Me! :)) _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From srsiriusblack at aol.com Mon Jan 6 20:48:10 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 15:48:10 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy Weasley, weak link Message-ID: <62.2b0a4895.2b4b458a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49300 In a message dated 06/01/2003 14:58:37 Eastern Standard Time, annemehr at yahoo.com writes: > First, just to forstall any "You *can't* Disapparate from Hogwarts" > posts -- no, Bill just nipped over to Hogsmeade and Disapparated from > there! ;) And, right you are. I didn't mean exactly what I typed, but then it was very late on for me when I was replying to the posts last night. Good grief, as many times as Hermione says it, you would think it was drilled into our heads... What I meant was much like you said, but I stand behind my main thought here which is the desire for Bill to have not left before Sirius revealed himself. Yes Molly seems to match up on Percy's personality in many ways- although I think of lot of that is a position she was forced into in the family dynamic- Good lord, someone needed to be the diciplinarian. With Sirius fetching Remus, I think there will be a way for him to safely inform the others... By of course, having Remus as hiw human companion. ;) Granted, I will come up with 100 possibilities beofre I will even consider that someone harms Sirius. -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From srsiriusblack at aol.com Mon Jan 6 21:04:53 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 16:04:53 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore, Dippet, Grindlewald & Riddle Message-ID: <166.199c96b2.2b4b4975@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49301 In a message dated 06/01/2003 15:45:06 Eastern Standard Time, bkb042 at yahoo.com writes: > I've been following the "Voldemort's Age" thread and found myself > back at those nagging questions: 1) How did Riddle find out that he > was the Heir of Slytherin? and 2) How did he find out about the > existance of the Chamber of Secrets? The answer to #2 would be > comparatively easy; Just look in Hogwarts: A History. But that bit > of information would be nothing more that an interesting bit of > trivia UNLESS Riddle had already been informed of his distinguished > ancestor. So who told him? We know that Dumbledore was the > transfiguration teacher at the time of Riddle's tenure at Hogwarts, > and we know that Dippet was Headmaster. We also know that there was > a wizard named Grindlewald in existance at the time. > > I strongly suspect that the edition of Hogwarts, A history which is in circulation today for students is not the same edition that was available for Tom Riddle's generation. Hermione constantly complains that no one has read the book, as well. It isn't on the reading list for the school, so I also suspect that there are things in the book that are useful but rarely discovered. So to answer your first two questions, imho, there are many ways Riddle could have discovered he was the heir without being told by a staff memeber. Firstly, of course, there could have been magic set just to inform the heir upon his arrival to Hogwarts- a dream, a vision, or the like. Or, it could have been in Howarts, A History. The fact that the staff refers to the Chamber as myth and rubbish to Harry's generation makes me believe that they do so for the protection of the students-- so that no one goes looking for it. Maybe in Riddle's generation it wasn't a secret as much, but just part of Hogwarts' history. Also, Riddle is a parselmouth. The basilisk could have told him without anyone else ever knowing. ( see how Harry hears the basilisk and no one else does...) There is also the fact that we know Riddle knew who his father was... this could have been a bit of information in the "unrevised" edition of Hogwarts, A History. Knowing his father's name and reading of his father would have made it easier for him to put the connection together.... As to the Grindlewald, I think we may just hear more about that generation of the staff in the future. Dumbledore has long hinted to the fact that there were many people who did not apporve of his appointment as headmaster. (Personally, I would like a list of all anti-Dumbledore characters so that I can dislike them ) -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dopeydora at ntlworld.com Mon Jan 6 21:23:46 2003 From: dopeydora at ntlworld.com (dopeydora) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 21:23:46 -0000 Subject: RE-I don't expect a complete bloodbath and a Question Message-ID: <000001c2b5ca$356f40e0$42d0ff3e@nnash> No: HPFGUIDX 49302 This is my fist post, so here goes Janet Anderson said "Heavens. This is the Harry Potter series, not a Civil War novel with battlefields full of corpses. Personally, I expect one or two significant deaths and a much larger number of off-camera deaths (like the twelve muggles who were actually killed in Pettigrew's fake death)" Me I agree with you on this, after all these are''Childrens Books'' and although JKR's writing has got a bit darker she is bound to be wary of how young some of the children who will be reading are. It would be nice if two versions were available a 'U' (Suitable for any age) and one say for over 15's, but I know that is not very likely to happen, but one can dream :o) I have a question now. Why when Sirius Black was caught by the MOM after they thought he killed Wormtail(Peter Pettigrew) and a street full of muggles and betrayed James and Lily was he not given Veritaserum(Truth serum). Surely he denied the charges against him? So it would have been the most logical course of action to take. Hope this is ok Cathy N From srsiriusblack at aol.com Mon Jan 6 21:44:01 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 16:44:01 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE-I don't expect a complete bloodbath and a Question Message-ID: <47.2883cdb5.2b4b52a1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49303 In a message dated 06/01/2003 16:25:40 Eastern Standard Time, dopeydora at ntlworld.com writes: > Why when Sirius Black was caught by the MOM after they thought he killed > Wormtail(Peter Pettigrew) and a street full of muggles and betrayed James > and Lily was he not given Veritaserum(Truth serum). > Surely he denied the charges against him? So it would have been the most > logical course of action to take. Sirius points out that he didn't even have a trial before he was sent to Azkaban. I hardly think they would have wasted time with the Veritaserum. Basically the MoM wanted someone in Azkaban for the crimes. Sirius looked pretty darn guilty on that street. ( Although there is a mistake in the book - Sirius says he had no trial. Dumbledore says he testified at Sirius's trial to the effect that Sirius was the Potters' secret keeper--- this has been brought up a few times here...) -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From noir_l at yahoo.com Mon Jan 6 21:20:34 2003 From: noir_l at yahoo.com (lindsay L) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:20:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] How old is Voldemort?--Two different ages given! In-Reply-To: <144.6f983ed.2b4ac28a@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030106212034.93567.qmail@web11405.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49304 srsiriusblack at aol.com wrote: "To me I still stand by what I said that Voldie is indeed the most feared in 100 years, but there have been others on the Dark Side.." You just said it! The word "in." That is what was throwing me for a loop because in the quote they use the word "for." The prepostion "for" to me means the entire duration of a hundred years. Whereas "in" would mean sometime within that hundred year time frame but no the duration. "It is a mere interpretation of written word, as far as I am concerned. Having taught in the states, I understand the interpretation, but I still do stand by my own." Yes, I mentioned that it's just an ambiguous sentence (and perhaps a grammatical error with "for"?). But as I said I see your point and yours does make more sense. The "for" just threw me off for a second. By the way, I looked at the UK edition (I get them from amazon.uk) and it does make more sense. Thanks again for your reply! -Lindsay :) From sushi at societyhappens.com Mon Jan 6 21:28:30 2003 From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 15:28:30 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] How old is Voldemort?--Two different ages given! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030106152014.025f0d40@mail.societyhappens.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49305 >Lindsay wrote: >In Cos, Harry goes back fifty years and >the last time the Chamber was open was fifty years ago (US edition >p.233) and Tom was 15 (the movie says 16, but in the book Tom says it >took him 5 years to find the Chamber, so he would be 15). So that >would make Voldemort 65 in Harry's second year. But in PoA, Harry's >third year, it says that Voldemort has been the most feared wizard >for "a hundred years" (US edition p. 6). And I responded: I've always taken the "hundred years" quote to mean *in* a hundred years. He's had competition as the Dark Lord of the Twentieth Century, a little fellow named Grindelwald. In my mind, this means that Voldemort managed to surpass Grindelwald's reputation of terror. The dates given in CoS are very, very clear. It's set in 1992, as we learn from the Deathday Party, and fifty years before would have been 1942 (while Grindelwald is still alive and wreaking havoc). It can be assumed that this puts 1942-43 as Tom Riddle's fifth year. Assume he is fifteen at the beginning, subtract that from 1942, and you've got 1927. (This, however, hinges on the idea that they really *mean* fifty years and not something like forty-nine or fifty-one, but I'm pedantic that way.) Tom would have left school about the time Grindelwald was defeated, in 1945. Sorry if this has already been debated to death. :) Just now checked my email and I'm slogging through one at a time. Sushi, who thinks Voldemort's doing pretty well for a fellow who's hit retirement age ;) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From klingerji at yahoo.com Mon Jan 6 21:41:41 2003 From: klingerji at yahoo.com (klingerji ) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 21:41:41 -0000 Subject: RE-I don't expect a complete bloodbath and a Question In-Reply-To: <000001c2b5ca$356f40e0$42d0ff3e@nnash> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49306 Cathy N wrote.... > I have a question now. > Why when Sirius Black was caught by the MOM after they thought he killed Wormtail(Peter Pettigrew) and a street full of muggles and betrayed James and Lily was he not given Veritaserum(Truth serum). > Surely he denied the charges against him? So it would have been the most logical course of action to take. I have often thought about this question. Why is veritserum not used more often in WW trials. My only thought is that it might be comparable to a ploygraph machine of our world. While they are a strong indicator of the truth and can get someone to tell the truth, they are not permissible in court. i understand that there is a great difference between veritaserum and a polygraph test, but it might work along the same theory. any opinions? klingerji From amani at charter.net Mon Jan 6 21:43:12 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 16:43:12 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How old is Voldemort?--Two different ages given! References: Message-ID: <002601c2b5cc$9d0fa800$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49307 Barb: > > How do you figure that? If you start at Hogwarts when you're > >eleven and add five years, that would make sixteen. Lindsay: >I was counting beginning in year one. So sometime during year one Tom >discovered who he was and began looking for the chamber. He would be >11 (1st year), 12 (2nd year),....up to 15 (5th year--therefore >searching for 5 years). But as I mentioned in another post we don't >know when Tom was born so he could have been 16 like you mention. I always find it easier to think of what age people are turning during a specified year. Harry was 11 when he went into Hogwarts. His birthday was in July. I have a late birthday like that (mine's in June) and I'm always one of the youngest in my grade. So everyone would be turning 12 sometime in their 1st year, or in the summer after. So, generally, the larger amount of kids are turning 12 sometime DURING their first year at Hogwarts. So Tom Riddle is just as likely to be 16 as he is to be 15, if not MORE likely. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jferer at yahoo.com Mon Jan 6 21:50:00 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 21:50:00 -0000 Subject: RE-I don't expect a complete bloodbath and a Question In-Reply-To: <000001c2b5ca$356f40e0$42d0ff3e@nnash> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49308 Cathy:I have a question now. Why when Sirius Black was caught by the MOM after they thought he killed Wormtail(Peter Pettigrew) and a street full of muggles and betrayed James and Lily was he not given Veritaserum(Truth serum). Surely he denied the charges against him? So it would have been the most logical course of action to take." I think your last sentence is the key. Barty Crouch Sr., then Chief of Magical Law Enforcement, wasn't interested in logic. He just wanted to close the case, get somebody in Azkaban, and he wasn't too fussy about who it was. Sirius didn't even get a trial, Veritaserum or no. Do you remember how Crouch jumped to conclusions that three teenagers (H/R/H)had cast the Dark Mark at the Quidditch World Cup? He's not a careful man. If Veritaserum is infallible, then why isn't it used in every case? They could have given it to Barty Jr.13 years before the Goblet of Fire to find out if he was a DE or not, or to Hagrid to see if he was letting the monster out of the Chamber of Secrets. Is there wizard law affecting the ability to use Veritaserum examinations as evidence? Otherwise there's not one, but a whole series of plot holes. From suzchiles at pobox.com Mon Jan 6 22:46:13 2003 From: suzchiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 14:46:13 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: RE-I don't expect a complete bloodbath and a Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49309 Jim Ferer said: > If Veritaserum is infallible, then why isn't it used in every case? > They could have given it to Barty Jr.13 years before the Goblet of > Fire to find out if he was a DE or not, or to Hagrid to see if he was > letting the monster out of the Chamber of Secrets. Is there wizard law > affecting the ability to use Veritaserum examinations as evidence? > Otherwise there's not one, but a whole series of plot holes. Perhaps it is against wizard law, in the same way that sodium pentathol can't be used to coerce the truth from people who are being tried for crimes in the US. On the other hand, though, it's not hard to imagine that in a time of terror, that certain laws are conveniently overlooked in the desire to stop the terrorists. But from what we have learned so far about the Voldemort reign of terror, there wasn't too much use for the civil rights of wizards who stood accused. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to find out later on that Sirius wasn't the only innocent wizard to be put in Azhakban. I also suspect that the aurors, who were pretty much given a free reign during this time, were completely believed once they turned over someone as a Voldemort supporter. I doubt if Sirius was the only one to not get a trial. Suzanne From kethlenda at yahoo.com Mon Jan 6 23:22:45 2003 From: kethlenda at yahoo.com (Kelly L. ) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 23:22:45 -0000 Subject: A Strange Question/was:Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Spoiler in book 1? In-Reply-To: <84.67888ea.2b4b4297@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49310 The Queen of Serpents pondered: This is an interesting thought, and it brings to mind something else: Has > anyone thought (damned Yahoo archive!) that speaking Parseltongue is to some > extent a *telepathic* ability? After all snakes are *deaf*. It could be partially telepathic, but it has to be at least partially audible. I seem to recall that the other kids could hear Harry speaking Parseltongue, though he didn't realize at the time that he was doing it. Kelly L. From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Mon Jan 6 23:45:02 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana ) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 23:45:02 -0000 Subject: Riddle related through his mom Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49311 Snuffles wrote: >>There is also the fact that we know Riddle knew who his father was... this could have been a bit of information in the "unrevised" edition of Hogwarts, A History. Knowing his father's name and reading of his father would have made it easier for him to put the connection together....<< Me: Except, Riddle is related to Slytherin through his *mother's* side, not his fathers. Tom Riddle senior was a Muggle and his name would not be in "Hogwart's, A History". Not even Riddle himself is mentioned in that book, as Dumbledore says that very people knew that Voldemort attended Hogwarts under his original name of Tom Riddle. I expect that Riddle heard about the Chamber of Secrets and went looking for it. He knew he could speak Parseltongue and guessed and/or researched that he would have what it took to open the Chamber. Just my ideas, anyway. Diana From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Mon Jan 6 23:54:58 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 18:54:58 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore, Dippet, Grindlewald & Riddle Message-ID: <54B17E63.522B2C11.F1060DB4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49312 In a message dated 1/6/2003 3:43:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, bkb042 at yahoo.com writes: > 1) How did Riddle find out that he > was the Heir of Slytherin? and 2) How did he find out about > the > existance of the Chamber of Secrets? What if he stummbled upon the Chamber by accident? I don't know...I can just picture Tom having to use the bathroom really bad, then going into the girl's room because no one was there and it was close, then noticing the snake carving on the facet....etc..etc...and the rest is history. As for him knowing he was the heir of Slytherin. Well, my guess is that he may have had a strong interest in his mother. After all, he never knew her. I could see him tracing his family history and discovering Salazar Slytherin at the end. ~Cassie~ From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Mon Jan 6 23:58:02 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 15:58:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE-I don't expect a complete bloodbath and a Question In-Reply-To: <47.2883cdb5.2b4b52a1@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030106235802.46074.qmail@web40506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49313 Snuffles wrote: Sirius points out that he didn't even have a trial before he was sent to Azkaban. I hardly think they would have wasted time with the Veritaserum. Basically the MoM wanted someone in Azkaban for the crimes. Sirius looked pretty darn guilty on that street. Me: I have always taken Sirius' words about his not getting a trial literally, but maybe we shouldn't do so. It could have been the kind of trial Harry saw in the Pensieve, with Crouch both acting as prosecutor and judge and yelling all the time. Besides, people at that time were so scared that it's ridiculous even to think of the jury being objective. And on a related topic - it's been asked why truth potions aren't used as evidence in trials. For one thing, for all we know, they might be used, just not as conclusive evidence. As far as I know, polygraph test results cannot be used in such a way, as it's not entirely reliable. And we don't really know if all truth potions are reliable, and when they have been invented. One theory might be that not-so-strong (read - not very reliable) potions were invented a long time ago, but very reliable versions, like Veritaserum (sounds a bit like a brand name, btw), only recently. Besides, I don't see this use of truth potions as morally acceptable. We don't know anything about the WW Constitution, but I assume it contains all the basic civil rights, which IMHO should prohibit the use of truth potions in trials. Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Mon Jan 6 23:59:19 2003 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 23:59:19 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Son Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49314 I don't know if anyone has raised this possibility, but could Tom Riddle aka, Voldemort, the dark lord, etc. be Dumbledore's son? Dumbledore could have had an affiar with his mother just after her husband left her and no one would be any the wiser about tom's parentage. Perhaps no one knows, but it might explain why Dumbledore can hold Voldemort off, but not defeat him. Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pepsiboy71 at mac.com Tue Jan 7 00:05:16 2003 From: pepsiboy71 at mac.com (Pepsiboy) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 19:05:16 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What if Tom Riddle won? In-Reply-To: <20030106235802.46074.qmail@web40506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49315 I was always curious as to what would have happened if Tom won? And what would happen if he'd met Voldemort? Would they have worked together, or fight it out since one couldn't abide the existence of the other? Just a random thought.. -Pep From kewiromeo at aol.com Mon Jan 6 23:12:03 2003 From: kewiromeo at aol.com (kewiromeo at aol.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 18:12:03 EST Subject: Too little credit (who will die) Message-ID: <6d.67a8569.2b4b6743@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49316 Sorry if I'm not giving enough credit to everyone in the 100+ threads regarding the deaths in the upcoming books. The topic has gone from complete bloodbath to no bloodbath at all, and I can't really quote anyone, just kind of want to put my own say on things. We don't give J.K. Rowling enough credit when we discuss this topic. Yes I am aware that she said that she will be killing off characters that she loves, but it might only be a few more. The books are written very lighty, and I understand the later books will be darker, but the HP crew is going to be at Hogwarts and not too many bad things will happen. Too little wizards in the WW. Can't kill them all off. I can't understand why Karkaroff left if Hogwarts is the safest place. Snape is safe there. Voldermort is scared to attack anyone there, so why not just stay there and seek asylum like Snape? Snape, we have grown to hate, only cause he and Harry share some sort of stryfe deeper than just school stuff. As we see, IMO Snape actualy cares about Harry. I believe that treating him like a hero, only makes him depressed. We all know that sometimes when we are depressed, being upset will take your mind off of whats bothering you. Voldermort will come after him, but I think hes a good character (aside from the fact that I think I could play an 18 year old Snape in the movie). Everyone seems to think that he wants to be the DADA teacher, but I don't see why he would want that. He seems fine as potion master. Hagrid, Ginny, the Creevy brothers, and the rest of the HP fan, we know one of them will die, or perhaps J.K. Rowling will pull a Star Trek, where a completely irrelevent person will die everytime something happens, which will not affect the main characters. Dumbledore is good. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Whether or not he dies is irrelevent. He will always be with Harry in mind and spirit. Most characters like that do die for the good of the cause. Harry, Hermoine, and Ron will not die. As well, there is no reason for any of the Weasley's to die, and you need both twins. If Harry and Sirius are both alive at the end of the 7th book, then they will end up together. Therefore, you can't kill them. As for the speculations of either Sirius being caught or Sirius being cleared, well, the Ministry is completely worthless now. Half the people in the Ministry are bad, the other half will go with Dumbledore, which leaves no halves for the people that will back Crouch. So I think within the next book the Ministry will collapse. Perhaps we will find out what the Department of Mystery does. As well, no one loves a bad ending. Harry has somewhere to go and Sirius is going all that he can. Can't kill Harry. Can't get rid of Harry's last relative. Honestly, I would have thuoght there would be more death eaters. There were around 10ish, a little more, a few dead, a few missing. Doesn't seem much like a very interesting crowd. You have Crabbe and Goyle who seem to have screwed things up, Macnair who is old and works for the ministry, Avery who sounds rather weird IMO, Malfoy who was bested by his own house elf. That leaves the ones on Azkaban who will be released, and Voldermort himself, and Wormtail who is worthless since he will of couse spare Harry or do something to protect him, something stupid like that. The things to come that are most predictable will happen only cause you think they won't. And that's all I have to say about that. Tzvi of Brooklyn "My cat's breath smells like cat food" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From andie at knownet.net Mon Jan 6 23:46:51 2003 From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe ) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 23:46:51 -0000 Subject: Harry's tears In-Reply-To: <20030106031824.32267.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49317 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tyler Hewitt wrote: > bel wrote: > > > I wonder if Harry is going to prove to have healing > powers related to > those > > eyes of his. Or if the world will only be healed > when Harry can > finally break > down and cry... > > I was really hoping Harry would have a good sob at the > end of GoF. Hell, I needed emotional release after > reading it, I'm sure Harry needed some as well! > As for his tears having some importance later, that > could be true. However, Harry DID cry once in the > books. I can't remember where, I don't have the books > with me. I'm thinking it was in CoS. It was when he > was talking to Dumbledore, in the infermary (I think). > Dumbledore says something and then politely turns his > head as he notices Harry wiping a tear. Granted, it's > not sobbing were talkng about here, but he has shed > tears. > > Tyler > Now me: I do remember Harry crying a few times... granted, not sobbing, but still... 1. You were right about Harry crying in front of Dumbledore in the hospital wing. That's 1. 2. When Hagrid gave Harry the pictures/photo album of his parents in SS... That's 2. 3. Doesn't he cry at the end of GoF on Mrs. Weasley's shoulder? That's 3. That's three times at least that Harry has at least gotten some tear action in there... is there any that I'm forgetting? I do agree that there may be some connection with Harry's tears in the future... :) grindieloe > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com From sammer at webspan.net Tue Jan 7 00:07:25 2003 From: sammer at webspan.net (Joanne Sammer) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 19:07:25 -0500 Subject: The ethics of Veritaserum (was "I don't expect a complete bloodbath and a Question") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49318 >Jim Ferer said: > >> If Veritaserum is infallible, then why isn't it used in every case? >> They could have given it to Barty Jr.13 years before the Goblet of >> Fire to find out if he was a DE or not, or to Hagrid to see if he was >> letting the monster out of the Chamber of Secrets. Is there wizard law >> affecting the ability to use Veritaserum examinations as evidence? >> Otherwise there's not one, but a whole series of plot holes. > Suzanne replied: >Perhaps it is against wizard law, in the same way that sodium pentathol >can't be used to coerce the truth from people who are being tried for crimes >in the US. On the other hand, though, it's not hard to imagine that in a >time of terror, that certain laws are conveniently overlooked in the desire >to stop the terrorists. > now Joanne... This brings up something that bothered me a lot in GOF. This makes me more uncomfortable about Snape's true character than anything else I've read about him. In Ch. 27 Padfoot Returns, Snape threatens to use Veritaserum on Harry during Potions after accusing Harry of stealing gillyweed and boomslang skin from Snape's office. "...Snape had drawn out a small crystal bottle of a completely clear potion. Harry stared at it. 'Do you know what this is, Potter?'' Snape said, his eyes glittering dangerously again. "No," said Harry, with complete honesty this time. "it is Veritaserum -- a Truth Potion so powerful that three drops would have you spilling your innermost secrets for this entire class to hear," said Snape viciously. "Now, the use of this potion is controlled by very strict Ministry guidelines. But unless you watch your step, you might just find that my hand slips...right over your evening pumpkin juice..." Does the theft of a few potion ingredients really warrant this response? It's one thing to search a student's possessions with probable cause, but it is quite another to search that student's mind. Really creepy. And why in the world does Snape walk around with Veritaserum in his pocket? Joanne From honoriagranger at yahoo.com Tue Jan 7 00:09:39 2003 From: honoriagranger at yahoo.com (Patricia Morrison) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 16:09:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Seven Pillars of Wisdom In-Reply-To: <1041889721.6680.73503.m7@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030107000939.64298.qmail@web14502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49319 srsiriusblack (Snuffles)wrote: >>"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by >>night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in >>the day to find that it was vanity: but >>the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they >>may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it >>possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven >>Pillars of Wisdom Iris wrote: >Why do you send this with every post? Do you think >there's a connection between the Harry Potter series >and T.E.Lawrence? Or at least an echo? >I'd like to know... After all, Lawrence's fate did >inspire Frank Herbert or George Lucas... I know it's OT, but as Lawrence is one of my own personal heroes, I noticed that too. (Go Snuffles!:D) And it's a lovely quote... Though I don't really see how "Lawrence's fate" (wiped out on a speeding motorcycle in Dorset to avoid hitting two boys on bicycles and died in hospital of his injuries, to national mourning) influenced either George...Iris?? But Lawrence and Harry do have some parallels: problematic boyhoods (Lawrence was illegitimate; his baronet father bolted with the governess and settled down happily for the rest of his life and a whole new family); finding himself unexpectedly in a place that was obviously made for him (Arabia/Hogwarts); a few good and close friends (H&R; Auda, Ali, Storrs); a certain fine disregard for Authority and the Done Thing... Honoria Granger Hermione's Older, Smarter Cousin __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From sagelyone at yahoo.com Tue Jan 7 00:15:50 2003 From: sagelyone at yahoo.com (sagelyone ) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 00:15:50 -0000 Subject: Only one Dumbledore and the Time Turner? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49320 Greetings all, Let me say that this is my first post, although I've been a lurker for several months, if not almost a year. While most of my thoughts were addressed on this board -- and I must admit, you all do a fine job -- there's still one thing nagging me. I will say here that I listen to the HP audio books on tape in my car while driving to work... it's a long commute. I've listened to the books that I have (1, 3 & 4) in order first. Now, I just stick my hand in the pile and pull out one at random. But I digress. And I do apologize if this point has been discussed before. In PoA, when the trio goes to see Hagrid prior to McNair and company, is Dumbledore with them? I recall that he is there but I think HRH leave the hut before they see Dumbledore. They may be headed towards the dog and cat by the time Dumbledore & co. first speak in the hut. We know that when Harry and Hermonine go back with the time turner, they hear DD saying, "Oh wait, McNair, you forgot to sign here." (Sorry I don't have my books or tapes available.) It seems as is DD *knows* that Harry and Heromine need a few more seconds to pull Buckbeak away. Granted DD knows almost everything (I think he can see through invisibility cloaks in some way), but I sense there's much more to his amusement there. He also tells the MoM guys to search the skies, withdrawing attention from the grounds. I've been wondering: what if DD watched all of this from his office window the first time around? I know Hagrid said that DD was going to be there regardless, but I'm sensing that our good wizard is doing quite a bit more in the space/time continum than we/I realize. A part of me suggests that he went back in time with Harry and Hermonine, but I just don't know. I am confused about the last part of the work with the Time Turner. When DD locks them in the room the "first time" how do they get out of the ward without bumping into themselves considering they're also running down the hall to meet a beaming DD? My understanding is that he listens at the door and says, "I think you've gone now." Is there a second door in the hospital wing? Or did the TimeTurner transplant them from the room to the entrance hall? Is Dumbledore's magically locking of the door silent compared to a manual locking of the door? This whole scene completely confuses me. I tried to follow some of the other Time Turner discussions posted, but had a rough time considering I'm still vexed over this part. Any help you can provide would be great, Sagelyone *Who just now realizes that the kids never left the ward, but were transported by the Time Turner, but still thinks DD is somehow transcending time and space.* From dorigen at hotmail.com Tue Jan 7 00:23:15 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 00:23:15 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's Son Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49321 christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com said: >I don't know if anyone has raised this possibility, but could Tom Riddle >aka, Voldemort, the dark lord, etc. be Dumbledore's son? Dumbledore could >have had an affiar with his mother just after her husband left her and no >one would be any the wiser about tom's parentage. Perhaps no one knows, >but it might explain why Dumbledore can hold Voldemort off, but not defeat >him. I am almost sure that Tom Riddle Sr. left Tom Riddle Jr.'s mother *while she was pregnant.* Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From stormlass at yahoo.com Mon Jan 6 23:57:57 2003 From: stormlass at yahoo.com (snapesrighthand) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 15:57:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Riddle related through his mom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030106235757.71018.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49322 --- "Diana " > Except, Riddle is related to Slytherin through his *mother's* side, not his fathers. Dumbledore says that very people knew that Voldemort attended Hogwarts under his original name of Tom Riddle. I expect that Riddle heard about the Chamber of Secrets and went looking for it. He knew he could speak Parseltongue and guessed and/or researched that he would have what it took to open the Chamber. Just my ideas, anyway. Alex aka me: I remember something from one of the books... Riddle telling Harry that his mother lived long enough to name him after his muggle father... I think that he would have known who she was, as in a slytherin heir, if he knew that. In turn knowing who he was. ===== It is a tough job, but somone has to do it! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Tue Jan 7 00:27:40 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 19:27:40 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The ethics of Veritaserum (was "I don't expect a complete bloodbath and a Question") Message-ID: <16807E14.0633106E.F1060DB4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49323 Joanne: > And why in the world does Snape walk around with > Veritaserum in his pocket? I've often wondered that myself. I've also often wondered if Harry and company didn't get into trouble and Snape didn't have to move them, would he have done something else to get 'alone' with Harry so he could threaten him with the veritaserum. And if he did follow through with this threat, how would he go about getting the information he needed? It seems to me (from the episode with Crouch Jr.) that the person whom the veritaserum has been given to has to be directly questioned. I would seem odd for Snape to immediately walk over to Harry and start asking him questions after seeing him drink the spiked pumpkin juice. ~Cassie~ From dorigen at hotmail.com Tue Jan 7 00:30:20 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 00:30:20 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The ethics of Veritaserum Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49324 Joanne asked: >Does the theft of a few potion ingredients really warrant this >response? It's one thing to search a student's possessions with >probable cause, but it is quite another to search that student's >mind. Really creepy. > >And why in the world does Snape walk around with Veritaserum in his pocket? I believe I can answer that. Snape doesn't walk around with Veritaserum in his pocket. What he does do is lie like a rug in order to scare a student he doesn't like. He's always doing this; he threatens to poison people more than once in his class, but as far as I know, he has never actually done so. (And I suspect that if someone like Clueless Neville managed to poison himself, he'd be right there with an antidote. Snape may be obnoxious but he's not stupid. He knows what he can get away with and what would get him the Dumbledore Smackdown. Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8 is here: Try it free* for 2 months http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup From kkcgigem at yahoo.com Tue Jan 7 00:33:59 2003 From: kkcgigem at yahoo.com (KKCGIGEM ) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 00:33:59 -0000 Subject: Death in Book 5 - My guess Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49325 I have been thinking about who JK rowling could kill off in book 5, not really disrupt the continuity of the plot, and yet be difficult to write. What if the death itself were not difficult to write, but the reactions to those deaths. I think that Hermione's parents will be the ones to die in book 5. WE have not seen them too much, so their deaths would not be as major. However, the reaction to those deaths by Hermione and the rest of the magnificent trio. Just a thought. "KKCGIGEM" From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 7 00:57:35 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak ) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 00:57:35 -0000 Subject: The ethics of Veritaserum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49326 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Janet Anderson" wrote: > Joanne asked: > > >Does the theft of a few potion ingredients really warrant this > >response? It's one thing to search a student's possessions with > >probable cause, but it is quite another to search that student's > >mind. Really creepy. > > > >And why in the world does Snape walk around with Veritaserum in his pocket? Janet: > > I believe I can answer that. Snape doesn't walk around with > Veritaserum in his pocket. What he does do is lie like a rug in > order to scare a student he doesn't like. He's always doing this; > he threatens to poison people more than once in his class, but as > far as I know, he has never actually done so.(And I suspect that > if someone like Clueless Neville managed to poison himself, he'd > be right there with an antidote. > Janet Anderson Pip: Agreed. Note that Snape even returns Trevor the tadpole to his original state, rather than telling Neville to go get a jamjar [grin]. The boomslang skin is used for Polyjuice, and Snape knows that the Trio have used Polyjuice before [CoS]. Or at least, he's quite capable of putting together Hermione's taking out a restricted book on powerful potions, missing potions ingredients and Hermione's several weeks long stay in hospital. It's not just the theft; it's the fact that Polyjuice is dangerous. Several weeks in hospital because Hermione used the wrong hair... I think Snape may be furious simply because he can't believe the Trio could be so *stupid* as to try Polyjuice again. Pip!Squeak From mdemeran at hotmail.com Tue Jan 7 01:01:02 2003 From: mdemeran at hotmail.com (Meg Demeranville) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 19:01:02 -0600 Subject: Veritaserum (was RE-I don't expect a complete bloodbath and a Question) References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49327 Cathy N wrote.... > I have a question now. > Why when Sirius Black was caught by the MOM after they thought he killed Wormtail(Peter Pettigrew) and a street full of muggles and betrayed James and Lily was he not given Veritaserum(Truth serum). > Surely he denied the charges against him? So it would have been the most logical course of action to take. klingerji responded: I have often thought about this question. Why is veritserum not used more often in WW trials. My only thought is that it might be comparable to a ploygraph machine of our world. While they are a strong indicator of the truth and can get someone to tell the truth, they are not permissible in court. i understand that there is a great difference between veritaserum and a polygraph test, but it might work along the same theory. any opinions? now me: What is to preclude Sirius from having taken Veritaserum? Depending on what he was asked, he may have been able to truthfully respond that he killed the Potters. It is certainly what he believes. From Ch. 17 and 19 PoA (U.S. Hardback): "You killed my parents," said Harry, his voice shaking slightly, but his wand hand quite steady. Black stared up at him out of those sunken eyes. "I don't deny it," he said very quietly. "But if you knew the whole story" (p. 341-2) and "Harry ... I as good as killed them,' he croaked."I persuaded Lily and James to change to Peter at the last moment, persuaded them to use him as Secret-Keeper instead of me...I'm to blame. I know it....The night they died, I'd arranged to check on Peter, make sure he was still safe, but when I arrived at his hiding place, he'd gone. Yet there was no sign of a struggle. It didn't feel right. I was scared. I set out for your parents' house straight away. And when I saw their house, destroyed, and their bodies...I realized what Peter must've done...what I'd done...." (p. 365) In both sections, Sirius says that he killed the Potters. If under Veritaserum, he was asked "Did you kill the Potters?", he would have replied "Yes" and been truthful since he believed that in switching Secret-Keepers, he was to blame for their deaths. Unless he was asked how he killed them, and I don't think the MoM cared to know how, he would have taken the blame for their death. So it is possible that he really did confess to the crime. Just a thought. --Meg (who has her one year list anniversary this week and who just started her second semester of medical school, both really cool items of note.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Jan 7 01:08:17 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 01:08:17 -0000 Subject: A Strange Question/was:Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Spoiler in book 1? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49329 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly L. " wrote: > The Queen of Serpents pondered: > > This is an interesting thought, and it brings to mind something > else: Has > > anyone thought (damned Yahoo archive!) that speaking > Parseltongue is to some > > extent a *telepathic* ability? After all snakes are *deaf*. > > It could be partially telepathic, but it has to be at least partially > audible. I seem to recall that the other kids could hear Harry > speaking Parseltongue, though he didn't realize at the time that > he was doing it. > > Kelly L. bboy_mn: Pardon me while I split hairs. I think that parsletongue is somewhat intuitive, as well as vibrational. While it is true snakes can't hear in the same sense that we can, they are able to detect vibrations, and to anaylse, make logical (for a snake) judgements based on those vibrations, and act accordingly. That description doesn't sound that far from hearing. If we look at the way all animals communicate, they are far more attunded to the abstract or secondary aspects of communication than humans are. Attitude, posture, body english, tone, facial expressions, all of these factors carry huge weight in animal communications. Think about your own dogs and cats, or better yet, think how well Hedwig is able to communicate with Harry. Harry knows when she is mad, or upset, or frightened, or affectionate, or playful, but it is an intuitive sense based on the clues. Now, back to snakes, I think snake language uses a deeper intuition that common 'I know what my dog is thinking'-type intuition. I think it is more on a psychic level, but I have to stop short of saying it's telepathic. Snake language is the vibrations, all the secondary clues, as well as a strong and deep intuitive sense of the intent and desire of the speaker. Then again..... maybe not. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Jan 7 02:03:58 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 02:03:58 -0000 Subject: Ancient Magic and wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49330 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Meira B" wrote: > Tzvi of Brooklyn wrote: > ...edited... > Tzvi of Brooklyn wrote: > > wands: > Mr. Ollivander (...says...) that Lily favored a wand that was good > for Charms while James favored a wand that was good for > transfiguration. ...edited...I wonder what all the other cores do. > > > Now me: (Meira) > > I think that it's not so much each different sort of core having a > different trait ... but rather, it's the combination of wood + > magical core + wizard (or witch) ...edited... A large group of > people could wave around one single wand, but the best results will > only be achieved with one specific witch or wizard. > -end this part- bboy_mn: Yes and no. I think cores do have specific characteristics. Unicorn hair for subtle but powerful magic with a refined essence, Dragon Heart for massively powerful but not so subtle magic, and Phoenix Feather, being the most magical of all the cores, for very deep refined complex powerful magic (my opinion). However, that doesn't matter, you have to take the wand that matches you. Regardless of how much you may or may not like the characteristic of a particular core, you still have to take the core that matches you. You may think that Unicorn wands are for wussies and girls, but if that's what matches you, then get over it, you're stuck with it. Now a grossly powerful Dragon Heart core could be refined with the proper wood, and further refined by a precise match to a particular wizard, thereby, producing a wand/wizard combination, that has the power of the Dragon, the subtility of the Unicorn, and the breadth, depth and refinement of a Phoenix. Hey... it could happen. -bboy_mn - end this part- > > Tzvi of Brooklyn wrote: > > If I were him, of all the wands that I would make, mine would > be the best. ...substatially edited... > > Now me: (Meira) > > ...edited... > As for Ollivander keeping the best wand for himself, I don't think > that there *is* a best or worst wand. ...edited... > -end this part- bboy_mn: Mr. Ollivander had laid hands on thousands of wands in his lifetime; he has touched them all, and he is so finely tuned to the art of wand making that he can touch a wand made by another maker and still tell you it's core, it's wood, it's characteristics, it's best use, and it's maker. Pretty bright guy, I would say. So having touch and tested all those thousnads of wands, if he came across a combination that was better than the wand he was currently using, I'm sure he would keep it. Makes sense to me. - bboy_mn - end this part- Meira asks: > And now a question that has been pesking me for some time now: > We know that Witches and Wizards in Europe use latin for their > (... probably the americans also). But suppose there is a magical > community in Egypt, or it China (or anywhere else in the world, > India, for example), > > Meira bboy_mn answers with the obvious: While European and Euro-centric wizards use the ancient dead language of Europe, the Asians would like-wise use the ancient dead language of Asian; Sanskrit. (8,000 to 10,000 years old; very ancient) Examples: in Latin: accendo delectatio navitas illuminate pleasure energy In Sanskrit: Samcakas Anandi Sattvarazi illuminate pleasure energy This is from one of my stories. The charm makes your body glow with light. The more pleasure you feel, the brighter your body glows. I'll let your imagination take it from there. There are Sanskrit dictionaries on-line. As far as Egypt, what would be that ancient language of north Africa; Aramaic? Native tribes of central and south Africa would probably use their local native language, which in all likelihood is very ancient. Just a few thought. bboy_mn From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Tue Jan 7 02:13:18 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari ) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 02:13:18 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Crouch - Last Orders (6 of 9) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49332 >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ssk7882 " > wrote: > [Apologies in advance to Eileen. This one got just a mite bit cruel > in places.] [Well, at least you spared the Cruciatus.] "I think that in the end," Elkins concludes, "Crouch saved his son because he wanted to." Eileen nods. "I like that interpretation very much, you know, but you did say that Mrs. Crouch was trying to manipulate her husband's emotions in the pensieve scene." "I really do think she was. But I've always found myself wondering how hard Mrs. Crouch really had to work on her husband to get him to agree to her plan." "Well," says Eileen. "It depends how you read her situation." "What are you talking about?" says Elkins. "What was the sacrifice Mrs. Crouch made?" "She was about to die anyway," says Cindy. "And instead she died in her son's place." "Do you really believe that, Cindy?" says Eileen. "Now wait a minute," says Elkins. "You're trying to copy me and it isn't going to work. Allotting responsibility for saving a person is one thing, a terminal illness are another. Are you really trying to say that Mrs. Crouch was perfectly all right, that Crouch let his wife sacrifice herself, and then lied about it to Barty Jr.?" "No, I'm suggesting nothing of the sort. She was seriously ill, and she was going to die. I'm sure of that. Even if it weren't for the unlikelihood of the above scenario, she dies very quickly after she comes to Azkaban. But... I've seen this assumed all the time in discussions of HP, that she was at death's door, and so chose between dying in the Crouch manor and dying in Azkaban. I don't think so. "She knew she was dying," says Barty Jr., but that doesn't imply at all to my mind that she was on her deathbed. A friend of mine has been dying of cancer for the last two years. There's no hope according to the doctors. But that doesn't mean he isn't dying. It may be another year still. I think Mrs. Crouch traded in a lot more of her life than a short time in Azkaban." "You don't like Mrs. Crouch," Cindy reminds Eileen. Eileen sighs. "I'll tell you a secret. When push comes to shove, it's not that I don't like Mrs. Crouch for what she did, it's that I don't like her archetype. Elkins will get around to that in Part Nine. But for the moment, let me say that it's not fair how she gets off scot free. Everyone else gets their fair share of blame, even Winky gets tarred with arguing for Barty Jr. to go to the QWC. But Mrs. Crouch is this poor, victimized heroine, who sacrifices herself at great cost, faints, and her only sin is that she loved too much. Poor woman with that horrible, horrible husband and son. It's obvious that Rowling WANTS us to feel warmly towards her, and so I'm not doing it. She was a member of that dysfunctional household. She had a hand in bringing up that blight on society" "Steady on," says Elkins. "That blight on society," continues Eileen. "Elkins has presented evidence that she was a mistress of manipulation. And yet, we're supposed to bow down to her as some paragon of mother love, because..." "Because what?" asks Cindy. "Because she's a member of the weaker sex," says Eileen with a look of disgust. "We'll talk more about this later," says Elkins. "But you do think that Crouch Sr. wanted to rescue his son?" "Yes. You've talked me into it." "She didn't have to work that hard to talk you into it either," says Cindy. Elkins sighs. She knows the thoughts going through Eileen?s head at being handed this new take on Crouch, and must move to squash them as quickly as possible before Eileen writes them into - heaven forbid! - a manifesto. "But," says Eileen. "What about my lovely exorcism scene? What's going happen to it? You know that the entire Crouch Sr./Mrs. Crouch dynamic is recreated between Crouch Sr. and Winky. Doesn't that suggest that in some way when he denounced Winky and released her from service, he was actually dismissing the shadow of his wife?" Eileen pauses for a second and then mutters something. "Excuse me," says Cindy. "Did you just say "meddlesome females?" Eileen ignores the question. "You know, I absolutely love this reading?" Elkins tells her. "But only if I can tweak it a little bit. Because my main problem with it as it stands is...well what's the *outcome* of that exorcism Really, Crouch's decisions after the QWC are quite damning, don't you think?" "No, I don't," says Eileen with false bravado. "Well, OK. Rescuing his son from prison was certainly a very hypocritical thing for Mr. Crouch to have done. Truly sickeningly so." "It was not!" says Eileen stubbornly. "It was heroic! It was noble! It was tragic!" "We're not back here again, are we?" asks Cindy. "Apparently so," says Elkins, rolling her eyes. "C'mon. Learn to live with it. Your beloved Barty was a hypocrite." "But a heroic, noble, and tragic hypocrite." "Do those even exist?" asks Cindy. "Elkins," says Eileen. "Tell me truly. If the story had ended there, would you call what Crouch Sr. did sickening? Y-you said there were mitigating factors." "Mitigating factors," says Elkins to herself. "Yes, I did say that. There was always a chance from their perspective that Barty Jr. was innocent, of course." "I'm beginning to think he was, you know... a bit," Eileen says brightly. Elkins stares at her. "You've been listening too long to us subversives," she says finally. "When I bring up that possibility, I never expect anyone to take me up on it. It's like FourthManAveryWithInnocence. It exists, but no-one in their right mind would want it." Cindy looks non-plussed. "All right, Eileen. I really think you should say good night to Elkins, and we'll take a nice stroll up to St. Mungo's to talk with Dr. George. Barty Crouch Jr. innocent: What next? Or do you just mean innocent like with Fourth Man Avery: couldn't manage to aim straight with the Cruciatus?" Eileen grins. "Closer to that, actually. I have no doubt that Barty Jr. was a servant of Voldemort, though I wonder if he was quite as devoted at the age of 19 as he remembers himself to be some twelve years later. I have no doubt he was at the Longbottoms that night. And, I would think it was Barty Jr. who got past whatever defences Frank Longbottom, as an Auror, must have had. There is, I think, an element of betrayal here, with Crouch Jr. playing Pettigrew's part. Frank Longbottom would have been wary of the Lestranges and Av... I mean the Fourth Man showing up on his doorstep, but his boss's son? Not even a disreputable son. No Prince Hal coming to the door with Falstaff and company hiding in the shadows. No, we know that Crouch Sr. certainly took quite a bit of pride in his son during the course of public conversation." "WHAT?" cries Elkins. "Did you just compare Barty Crouch Jr. to Prince Hal?" Eileen looks at her defiantly, then her head drops. "Just couldn't help it," she mutters. "They would have got along swell together. Hal would have loved all those Crouchisms, and Barty Jr. would have loved Hal's approach to honest communication. They both are actors in every phase of their lives, in all their relationships. They both are peculiarly honest even in their dishonesties. Though, in the end, Hal, being a consummate Slytherin, knew which side his bread was buttered on, and backed up his poor father (who was, btw, a rather likeable hypocrite who convinced himself that his ambition was something else than that), whereas Barty ended up more like Percy Hotspur, completely consumed by a delusional crusade." "I'm really not able to wrap my mind about this," says Elkins. "Voldemort as Falstaff? Mrs. Lestrange as Mistress Quickly?" "Yeah, I know," says Eileen. "It doesn't go very far. Anyway, Barty Jr. went to the Longbottoms that night?" "Yellow flag," says Cindy. "It could have been daytime." "The Big Bang theory demands that it be night, so we can get some contrasting shots between the warm fire-lit inside of the house, and the dark gloom outside in which the villains creep up, in dark cloaks." "Oh, all right," says Cindy. "What happened next?" "Barty Crouch Jr., as I said, got them inside, and then the Longbottoms were tortured to insanity." "But didn?t take part in Crucio'ing them, according to you?" says Cindy. "Far too busy saving Neville, and generally being an all-around saint? "Well," says Eileen. "I absolutely love Elkins' "Barty Crouch Jr. saved Neville's life" theory. It makes perfect sense that Barty wouldn't believe in the sins of the father being visited on the child. But actually, I do think that Barty did take part in the application of Cruciatus, though I don't know if he was really that enthusiastic about it. That's where we get the emotional punch of the "Unforgivable Curses" chapter after all, the fact that he was one of those who sent the Longbottoms insane." "What do you mean, not really enthusiastic about it?" asks Cindy sharply. "I don't see where you're getting that. He seems like a loony fanatic to me." "Objection!" says Elkins. "You're basing your understanding of the nineteen year old Barty Crouch Jr. on his certifiable behaviour some twelve years later. I have argued many times in the past that Barty was dying of remorse in Azkaban, and only developed his spectacularly callous attitude as a result of his father's post-Azkaban behaviour towards him." "You would," says Eileen, eyeing Elkins with dislike. "And I would have to end up agreeing with you. That's just how life works, it seems. So, yes, I don't think Barty was all that proud of that little affair. Later, he prizes it, as the thing that makes him Voldemort's "faithful servant", as his chance of escape, but at the time he's quick to fall prey to the dementors of Azkaban, and in that trial scene?" "I know what's going on," says Cindy. "You're going to go all bleeding heart on us. Talk about how his pleas of innocence wrung your heart." "I didn't think I had to," says Eileen. "Who isn't overwhelmed by that performance of his? He just sounds so sincere. And given that he is, as Elkins puts it "peculiarly honest" in his deceptions, it just seems wrong for him to be entirely lying here. I forget who it was said that he sounds like an aggrieved teenager who has been accused of doing something he hasn't, when he has done a whole lot of other just as bad things. But lets look at what he said in the Pensieve scene, shall we?" "Yes," says Cindy, pulling out a copy of GoF: The Official Annotated Edition: Now with a new appendix on Death Eater Cells and Bloody Ambush Theories. "Here you are: "Father, Father? please?" "Father, I didn't! I didn't! I swear it, Father, don't send me back to the Dementors." "Mother, stop him. Mother, I didn't do it. It wasn't me!" "No! Mother, no! I didn't do it. I didn't do it, I didn't know! Don't send me there, don't let him!" "I'm your son! I'm your son!" "Father! Father, I wasn't involved! No! No! Father, please!" "Charming," says Cindy, closing the book, as Eileen and Elkins shudder. "Well, I really don't think you can say he wasn't lying there. "I wasn't involved" is pretty specific. And you do propose at the least that he was involved." "You never know about Barty Crouch Jr.," says Eileen. "He has a very individual approach to language, to say the least. And to dishing out responsibility. Anyway, did you catch the "I didn't know!" ? What do you think that could be referring to?" "I didn't know the Lestranges were Death Eaters?" asks Cindy. "After all, he was apparently caught in their company." "Yes, that would seem to be the surface reading of that," says Eileen. "But lately, I've begun to wonder if in his own little twisted fashion, he?s referring to the fact that he really didn't know what was going to happen when he agreed to get the Lestranges in." "Oh yes," says Cindy drily. "The poor innocent thought the Lestranges wanted to have tea with Frank and his wife." "No," says Eileen. "I'm certain he knew they were going there for information about Voldemort's whereabouts. Which would presumably involve the Cruciatus curse. What he didn't know was how far the Lestranges were going to go and what it would be like. You see, Barty led a very quiet and rather pleasant life as a Death Eater, I think. Unlike Snape, I don't think he actually did get any blood on his hands during the Voldemort years. He was out of school for a few months perhaps before Voldemort fell. As a Death Eater, he was being flattered by those in the know, and shielded from anything unpleasant. He was supposed to lie low, to not raise any suspicions on his father's part. I submit that that night was his first acquaintance with this sort of thing, with torture. And it seems, torture that went on past any justification. Surely, it would have been obvious fairly quickly that Frank Longbottom really didn't have any information for them, or if my favourite memory charm theory is true, until he DID spit out the information (See Introducing A New Memory Charm Theory ? Message 42575). Why did it go on so long as to cause insanity? Revenge?" "For Wilkes," mutters Elkins. "Be that as it may," says Eileen. "I don't think he would have much liked or expected his first taste of this. And then there's the whole question about Mrs. Longbottom." Elkins looks disturbed. "I'd rather not talk about that," she says, her fist clenched tightly over the reins. "Cheer up Elkins," says Eileen, "I've actually got some Barty Jr. apologetics for you here. Now about Mrs. Longbottom." "Who doesn't get a name," says Cindy. "Yeah," says Eileen. "Neither does Mrs. Crouch." There is a short silence. "Absent mothers, sacrificed on their husband's accounts," continues Eileen. "Innocents. Non-combatants. I really don't know if Barty would have felt all that comfortable about torturing the popular Auror's wife, just as I like to think he spared Neville from harm. After all, Mrs. Longbottom was in the same position as his mother, married into the Department of Magical Law Enforcement. There, there, Elkins, does that make you feel better? "I didn't know!" indeed. Barty did have a weird but very developed (over-developed) sense of justice, if you remember." "Perhaps, but he was still lying through his teeth in the pensieve scene," says Cindy. "From a certain point of view," says Eileen. "Now, Barty had to out-and-out lie from time to time, no doubt of that, but in that scene he seems to me off in his own little reality, where he has his own specific idea of what went wrong, and how it wasn't his fault. "I didn't do it!" and "It wasn't me!" and "I wasn't involved!" could all refer to the fact that he wasn't actually a part of what he disapproved of. He "didn?t know" it was coming." "So, your innocent Barty Crouch Jr. isn't so innocent after all," says Cindy, with a relieved look. "Just profoundly messed up. What else's new?" "Well, Crouch Sr. didn't think his son was innocent at all," begins Eileen. "He knew he was guilty." "Knew?" says Elkins, with a dangerous look. "How could he have known, Eileen? How could he have known more than Dumbledore?" "Well, he thought Barty Jr. was guilty, anyway!" snaps Eileen. "Yes," says Elkins. "I do think that Crouch genuinely believed his son to be guilty, but he might also have been willing to concede the possibility that there was a chance that his son really *could* be innocent." "No," says Eileen. "No, he couldn't." "He would have been an idiot not to," says Elkins. "As I said, even Dumbledore was in doubt. Are you saying Crouch was an idiot?" "But I don't want to think he thought his son could be innocent when he? when he?" "Yelled, "You are no son of mine!" says Cindy helpfully. "Yes!" wails Eileen. "I don't want him to have done that!" "Wanting Crouch to behave any better than he does," says Elkins with undisguised glee, "Is a fruitless endeavour. I'm glad to see you learning that." "He thought his son was guilty," says Eileen stubbornly. "When push comes to shove, he did. Even if he knew there was a theoretical chance he wasn't." Elkins nods. "You must admit that chance could have had some bearing on his decision to agree to his wife's plan to free Barty Jr. from Azkaban." "Yes," says Eileen slowly. "Yes, it could have. Especially afterwards. Doubt can grow afterwards, when in the heat of the minute, trying to escape from a tight corner, it is suppressed." "Alternatively (and, to my mind, far more likely)," says Elkins, "the Crouches could have believed that their son was, while technically guilty, not really a very hard case. Crouch Jr. was very young, after all. He was barely past the age of majority. His parents could have believed that he'd been led astray. That he'd been seduced. That he'd been an accessory, but not an accomplice. That he'd been an accomplice, but not an active participant." "You ought to like this one," says Cindy to Eileen. "Judging by what you've been arguing about Barty Jr.'s involvement the last while." "I do," says Eileen, her face beaming. "And please note this is making Crouch Sr. very sympathetic." Elkins scowls at her. "Just you wait," she hisses. "The text supports this quite well. Crouch Jr's lack of repentance would seem to have come as an utter surprise to his father. His father did not put him under the Imperius Curse until he was fool enough to start shooting his mouth off about wanting to run off to seek Voldemort.. So I can see that the Crouches might have thought that rescuing their son from Azkaban was not an action that would have had any terrible repercussions or placed anyone at any real risk." "Which belief, of course, would make Crouch Sr. all the more sympathetic," insists Eileen again. "Getting himself into something over his head, under the illusion that his son could be rescued from the horror of Azkaban and restored to ordinary life. As you said, the Imperius curse didn't come till later." Elkins sighs. "Why is it that whatever I say something about Crouch, you find something to like about it?" "Yeah," says Cindy. "It's almost like you've come here with a specific emotional reaction and you?re looking for canons to justify it." "So, not so foolhardy yet?" asks Elkins. "Well, not for the wizarding world. But you have to admit that Azkaban switch could have gone terribly wrong," says Eileen. "He was risking himself there. I find that very?" "Sympathetic," says Cindy. "Yes we know. Continue, Elkins?" "Crouch's decision to continue to keep his son a prisoner in his own home even after it became clear that he was both guilty and unrepentant was also unwise, but again, I can at least see how he might have managed to justify this decision to himself. His son was under the Imperius Curse. He was under guard. He wasn't going to break free. The decision to allow Crouch Jr. to attend the QWC doesn't strike me as all that foolhardy either, really. Neither Winky nor Crouch expected that after all of that time, Crouch Jr. was suddenly going to be able to break free of the Imperius curse. Quite the opposite, I think." "True," says Eileen. "It wasn't foolhardy in regards to the general public. But it endangered Crouch. I mean, seriously, were he and Winky smoking something when they came up with their plan? What if Mad-Eye Moody had gone to take in the Quidditch game and met up with them? Supposing some rude Bulgarian had sat down in Barty's chair? Supposing someone had tripped or fallen into him? Supposing Barty had sneezed loudly? It strikes me as foolhardy." "They must have thought there could be no harm to anyone in letting him go watch a sporting event. Both Crouch and Winky can be forgiven for having assumed that." "Did Elkins just say she was going to forgive Crouch for something?" whispers Cindy to Eileen in disbelief. "I thought so," whispers back Eileen, "but there might be something wrong with my ears." "But *after* the QWC?" says Elkins, a mad glint in her eyes. "After the QWC, Crouch *had* to have realized what kind of a threat his son represented to the public at large. That Imperius Curse of his...well!" Elkins laughs savagely. "Little Barty kicked its ass, didn't he! No Stockholm Syndrome for little Barty. Ten years of mental domination, ten years of captivity, ten years of being treated like an Unperson, and he still kicked it." "Oh wait a moment!" cries Eileen, "I thought we'd decided that Voldemort's power allowed Barty to throw off the Imperius! Not Barty's forceful personality and strong will." "So," Elkins says, ignoring Eileen's objections. "What does Crouch do, now that he no longer has all of these womenfolk around to lure him into endangering both himself and the public by taking foolish risks with his son? What would *Brutus* have done?" "I know, Elkins," says Eileen, looking at her shoes. "And Crouch didn't do it, did he?" "I think that's s..." Elkins waves her words aside. "I don't like hypocrites," she says. (Eileen looks offended.) "He won't risk prison for his crimes, he won't take the appropriate actions to protect the world from his son, and he won't even face up to his own undeniable pathology! Instead, he projects it onto the people around him. Poor old Mr. Crouch. Finally ran right *out* of wives, didn't he? No one left to blame. So sad." Cindy looks at her with amazement "You can't really tell us that it would have made you like Crouch any better if he had been able to put his helpless Imperio'd son down like a rabid dog, can you? It's just not *like* you, Elkins! You *hate* that sort of thing!" Eileen nods her head vigorously. "It's sympathetic!" she says. "Like I've been telling you for months!" Elkins blinks. She frowns. "Ordinarily, yes, I suppose that I would find it rather sympathetic for someone to refuse either to hand his helpless captive over to be psychologically tortured to death in a hellish prison or to kill him in cold blood. But when that someone is Barty Crouch?" Elkins' hobby horse lays back its ears and whinnies dangerously. "When it is *Crouch?*" Elkins repeats. "When that someone is CROUCH? Crouch, who authorized his Aurors to use torture on suspects? Crouch, who allowed them to AK people instead of even bothering to *arrest* them? Crouch, who permitted his Aurors to coerce, torment and kill on the basis of nothing more than the merest *suspicion* of malfeasance? On their merest *whim?*" "Okay, okay," laughs Cindy. "Calm down." "When that someone is *Crouch?*" Elkins repeats, her voice now rising uncontrollably. "Crouch who sent people to prison for life on the basis of no evidence? Sometimes without even benefit of a trial? Who was supposedly willing to bind his son over to torment and death, so long as he didn't have to actually *watch* it? Because he was so very concerned about the safety of the *wizarding world?* So very devoted to the protection of the *public?* Even at great personal *cost?* So very *self-sacrificing?* You're trying to tell me that this man was *squeamish?*" "Geez. Take deep breaths, will you? You're--" "When it's *Crouch?*" shrieks Elkins. "When it's CROUCH? When it's *Crouch,* then it doesn't make me like him. It just *sickens* me! It is absolutely *despicable!*" "Look, would you--" "Gah! As if none of the people he sent to prison or let his Aurors torture and murder had relatives who loved them!" "Calm down, okay? You're--" "Men like Crouch don't have the *right* to be squeamish," snarls Elkins. "Men like Crouch should be getting blood under their *fingernails.* They should be *wading* in it. They should be armpit *deep* in viscera. They should learn how it *smells.*" "Okay, Elkins. Relax. It's all right. He's just a character in a children's book. A really really *minor* character in a--" "CROUCH WAS JUST PLAIN EVIL!" screams Elkins, spit flying from the corners of her mouth. "I HATE HIM I HATE HIM I **HATE** HIM!" There is a short shocked silence. "Well, sure, Elkins," says Eileen reasonably. "But don't feel that you have to hold back on our account. Why don't you tell us all how you *really* feel about Barty Crouch Sr.?" Elkins stares at her, her mouth opening and closing silently, then lets out a single strangled scream. Her horse screams as well and rears up onto its hind legs. Eileen yelps and dives for cover beneath her CRAB CUSTARD table. Cindy hunkers down, ducking flailing hooves, her hands tightened around her Big Paddle. Elkins spits out a word unsuitable for this list and pulls hard on her reins. Her horse screams once more, wheels, and then takes off down the promenade at a fast gallop. Cindy straightens slowly. She stares down the promenade, watching the seagulls rise squawking out of the path of Elkins' horse. "Well?" she says. "What do you have to say to that?" Eileen peers out from beneath her table. "What can I say? I could yell back, "I LIKE HIM!" several times, which would be true, and just as valid a point. I happen to like fictional characters who draw a line somewhere, even if it's really in the wrong place altogether. Squeamish!Crouch is my cup of tea, really." "Bent," mutters Cindy. "The both of you. But I heard you during that MAGIC DISHWASHER argument, Eileen. Weren't you saying to Abigail that you'd only sign up for my Dumbledore has sent Snape to kill Karkaroff theory under MAGIC DISHWASHER, because, DISHWASHER Dumbledore has no right to be squeamish." Eileen looks pained. "But I don't like DISHWASHER Dumbledore," she says, "No offense to Pip, Melody, Grey, and the other inhabitants of the Safe House, of course. I just don't like him. And I like Crouch." "So, in other words you're only confirming what Elkins said a long time ago." "That we don't like characters for the canons we can muster in their behalf. We like the characters and then we go searching for the canons. Yeah, I suppose so." "But that's not an interesting response," says Cindy. "It has no Bang! Couldn't you come up with something that involved yelling, and mixed metaphors and..." "Well," says Eileen. "I could give it a shot. Hey Elkins!" she calls. "Are you coming back here? WHAT DO YOU MEAN: "THE MEREST WHIM?" WHAT EVIDENCE DO YOU HAVE TO SHOW THAT PEOPLE WERE BEING TORTURED AND MURDERED ON THE MEREST WHIM?" A large book sails through the air, hitting Eileen on the head. "Ow," she says, "636 pages, and it's fallen open to Page 457." "I would say he became as ruthless and cruel as many on the Dark Side." "HEY ELKINS!" yells back Eileen. "Since when do we take everything Sirius Black says as true?" A snarl greets her. "But more seriously," says Eileen to Cindy. "You'll notice that Sirius never says Crouch was ruthless and cruel and despiadado on the merest whim. He wasn't letting Frank Longbottom off the neighbours for the ping-pong table, as I've said before. In Fact..." Eileen pauses, then leans closer to Cindy, "You know what. I'm getting more and more sure of this. Crouch. Had. Standards. Standards that didn't really make sense. Lines drawn where they shouldn't be. Standards that he twisted. But I don't think he at all wanted to be standardless, I don't think..." They are interrupted by the return of Elkins. "Have I mentioned," says Elkins calmly, one hand still at her throat, her eyes still fixed on her wrist watch. "That I *really* don't like Barty Crouch Sr.?" "You've mentioned it a few times," answers Eileen politely. "Yes." "At any rate," Elkns says. "Crouch's actions after the QWC make it very difficult for me to believe that his wife ever had to put all that much pressure on him to get him to agree to rescue their son. He seems far too heavily invested in his son's life for me to believe that." "I'll drink to that," says Eileen. "Yes, good idea," says Cindy. "We can call it a day and we can all go off to the Royal George for a pint." "It's appallingly irresponsible behavior," continues Elkins. "Pathological, really. A pathological behavior pattern that he projects upon others because he can't face up to it himself. Because I do think that he was projecting onto Winky at the QWC, you know. I think he was seeing himself. I don't think that Mr. Crouch liked himself very much. I don't really think that he was lying, you know, when he claimed to despise and detest the Dark Arts and all those who practice them. Really," she asks. "Would *you* like yourself very much, if you were Bartemius Crouch?" "Elkins," says Eileen, her face drawn. "I... No... No. Hypocrites don't usually like many aspects of themselves, egotists though they are." She has taken off her glasses and began to fiddle nervously with them. "They set standards and fall short of them, but they still believe in the standards. And they try to convince themselves that they aren't falling short... I mean, I seriously believe that honesty is the best policy and well, I'm not entirely honest am I? But... well... pretending is better than not. I find hypocricy a lot more attractive, a lot more human than honest evil... usually. Hypocricy, after all, makes the world go around... I've said that I identify with Percy Weasley, but perhaps Percy wouldn't have been like me. I used to steal chocolate from the cupboard... Well, actually, I still do raid the cupboard for chocolate from time to time, but now that I'm nineteen it's tolerated in the family as one of my eccentricities. Hot Chocolate Powder. Chocolate Chips. Baker's chocolate. Chocolate syrup. Oh, I'm a chocoholic all right." "What does this have to do with Crouch?" asks Cindy. "But whenever any of my younger brothers tried to steal chocolate from the cover, I was on them in a flash. Chewed them out, I did. And really, that was for the better. Because at least I was only stealing the chocolate. If I'd said, "It'd make sense that I should hold them to the same standard I applied to myself," they'd have eaten my parents out of house and home." "You should have said, "It'd make sense that I should hold myself to the same standard I applied to them," says Cindy disaprovingly. "Yes, it would have," agrees Eileen. "And you expect to use this little anecdote about chocolate to make Crouch likeable?" "Well, Cindy," says Eileen, with a pained smile. "I do have more applicable anecdotes. It's just I don't fancy baring my soul to the list any further than I already have. But the point is that I don't find hypocricy very repellant. I find it incredibly sympathetic. For obvious reasons. Elkins?" "And I think that his denunciation of Winky was in part an expression of self-hatred. But really, it works fine for me either way. Whether you think that he was seeing himself or his wife in Winky, the basic principle remains the same. After all, I'm sure that Crouch saw himself in his wife, too." Eileen's lip begins to quiver, she suddenly clasps her hand over her mouth to hide the laughter. But, after finally managing to stop, Eileen dons a slightly Malfoy smirk, and says, "You do realize, of course, That you're only making him *more* sympathetic with all of this? At least from a Bleeding Heart perspective, you are. I just claimed that Crouch fell into error due to his love for his wife and his overwhelming sense of True Wizarding Honour. But here you have him erring out of love for his son as well, a love so powerful that it overrides even the most compelling practical reasons not to continue to show him mercy." "Love?" Elkins stares at her. "Who said anything about love? Or about mercy, for that matter?" "That'd be me," reminds Eileen gently. "You think *that's* why Crouch wanted so very badly to keep his son alive?" demands Elkins. "Err... yes," says Eileen. "And not only to preserve his life, but also to allow him a kind of perverted illusion of independence? Under the Imperius Curse and kept indoors, yet never actually physically restrained? In full view of others, and yet invisible? Capable of walking right up to the front door, but never of passing beyond it? Permitted a kind of sick twisted parody of autonomy? Turned into a...a kind of a *meat marionette?* You think that was done out of *love?*" "Well, I--" "That's not love," snaps Elkins. "That bears about the same relationship to love as rape does to sex. I don't think that Crouch was about love, really. That's not his role. It's not his function. It's not what he's all about." "Here you go talking about those motifs again," cries Eileen. "Really. It's enough to make me a Stanislavskian!" "Crouch is not about *love,*" Elkins spits. "Crouch is about domination. Crouch is about narcissism. Crouch is about coercion. Crouch is about control. But primarily, Crouch is all about the denial of volition. And that's not compatable with love. How can you love other people if you don't even respect their right to exist *as* other people?" Eileen fidgets in her chair. "But Elkins," she says. "But Elkins what? Tell me, O you who grew up with Molly and Arthur Weasley for parents, is that how you define love?" Eileen's lip trembles, and then, as if in a trance, she recites from memory, "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails." "Sounds like Crouch Sr. to me," says Elkins snidely. "But where there are prophecies, they will cease;" continues Eileen, "where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked as a child, I thought as a child, I reasoned as a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see trhough a glass, darkly; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." Eileen pauses. "We're still in the Shadowlands," she says. "We know in part and we prophesy in part. And love is sullied and tarnished. But it still is there. When a man risks his life to save his guilty son from torment and death in Azkaban, believing that he can restore his son to life, when he risks everything because he will not kill his child, I see love there." "I'm sure that Crouch believed that he loved his son," Elkins says. "I'm absolutely positive of that. I'm sure that he told himself that he was taking such pains to preserve his son's life not only to honor his wife's last wishes, but also because he truly and genuinely loved his son. But I'm not altogether convinced that Barty Crouch Sr. really understood the meaning of that word. I don't think that he really got that whole love concept any better than Voldemort does." "Slander," says Eileen flatly. "Voldemort, who casually discounted the sacrifice of a parent vs. Crouch who died in the end to save his son?" "Is it slander? The Crouch family plotline is awfully strongly tied to Voldemort, isn't it?" "And to other things," said Eileen. "Mrs. Crouch is tied awfully strongly to Lily Potter, isn't she?" "My mother saved me," says Cindy thoughtfully. "But, of course," says Eileen. "Mrs. Crouch wasn't the only one who saved him. We've seen that Mrs. Crouch's sacrifice was on a larger scale Crouch's sacrifice, in the end, as well. If his wife was his mirror, what does that say about him?" "Is that a motif?" asks Cindy excitedly. "Nah," Eileen shrugs her shoulders. "Why did Crouch place his son under the Imperius Curse when he realized that he was still devoted to Voldemort's cause?" demands Elkins. "Why did he keep him around even after Bertha Jorkins not only discovered him, but also overheard him saying something so damning that when Voldemort hears of it, he will return to England in full confidence that he can rely on Crouch Jr's devoted service? Why is he so determined to keep him safe from harm? Why does he remain so determined even after the QWC, when it becomes clear that his son is strong, powerful, dangerous, mad, and still unrepentent?" "Because--" "Not because he loved his wife," answers Elkins harshly. "Not because he loved his son. Not because he was merciful. And certainly not because he was *squeamish.* But because his son *was* still unrepentent. That's why. Because if Barty Jr. had died with his loyalty and his allegiance still intact, with his *Otherness* still intact, then Barty Jr. would have *won.* And Crouch wasn't willing to allow that. He wasn't going to let his son win. He wasn't going to allow him to be Other. Not even in death. Crouch wanted that boy to reflect him in more ways than just carrying his name. Crouch wasn't even willing to cede his son to human volition; you think that he was going to cede him to *death?*" Elkins clasps her hands over each other, trying to stop their now quite violent shaking. She takes a deep breath. "Voldemort presents as a father figure in the graveyard." she says again, very softly. "And he is strongly textually linked to Crouch Sr. Do you want to know why I think that Crouch Sr. was so terribly invested in keeping his son alive? Do you? Do you really? I think that it was because obedience was a virtue that Mr. Crouch wanted to teach his son. It was a virtue that he wanted to teach him before he died." There is a very long silence. Cindy and Eileen look spooked. "Elkins," says Eileen softly. "Barty Crouch Jr. tortured the Longbottoms. Did you want him to win? His Otherness was repulsive. I would have been very tempted to teach him the virtue of obedience myself." Elkins frowns at her. "Really?" she says. "Yes, in fact. That's another one of my big faults. I insist on carrying on any disagreement until the other person's will snaps, and they acknowledge I'm in the right. Because I've convinced myself over the last nineteen years that being in the right allows you to do that. In fact, Elkins, I can be quite nasty that way. I mentioned that I had a brief spell as a victim turned bully. I reduced people to tears regularly, never let them a way out, never allowed them an opinion different than mine. I'm working on it, but that is one of my faults. And if, after rescuing my son from prison, he continued to hold alliegance to this hideous ideology, this horrendous terrorist group, to evil, oh, I would be tempted... And that's all wrong, but I can just see myself standing there in Crouch's shoes." "And in the end, it's about identification with the text," says Cindy. "Yes," says Eileen. "In the end, it's about where you can see yourself. And sometimes, Elkins, sometimes I do see myself in Barty Jr. But not so often. But there is a never a time, reading the books, when I don't identify with his father. In fact," says Eileen, "I don't think there's a fault Crouch has that I don't share. In much more moderate proportions, of course," she adds hastily. She looks around. "I like renunciation," she says firmly. "It's what makes Subversive!Neville so appealing to me. When was the day that I decided to yank myself out of politics, and focus on becoming a teacher? Must have been a year and a half ago." "What do you think that Crouch Sr. wanted very badly?" asked Elkins. Badly enough to have a bit of a 'mania' about it?" "Well," says Cindy slowly. "According to Sirius, he wanted to catch just one last Dark Wizard..." "Right. So why did Crouch become so apoplectic at his son's sentencing?" demands Elkins. "Why did he react that way? What was he really *seeing,* do you think, when he looked down at his son in the dock? At his son, who shared his name? At his son, who stood accused of *trying to restore Voldemort to power?*" "And of planning to resume the life of violence that he had led before Voldemort's fall," murmers Cindy. Eileen shudders. "Parallel scenes," she whispers. "You insisted on claiming that Crouch was seeing himself in Winky when he denounced her. Because you see him as a narcissist. As somebody who sees himself in others." Elkins nods slowly. "You see him," says Eileen. "As someone who stares at his own *reflection.* The mirror reverses..." "The mirror reverses," agrees Elkins quietly. "But that which the mirror reverses, it also always reflects." There is a very long pause. "Do you have me under Imperius?" asks Eileen seriously. "Because however much I might sympathize with Crouch's flaws, the truth is that I'm much more likely to be Imperio'ed than to be casting the curse. Elkins looks away. "A somewhat submissive personality," says Cindy to herself. "I think that it gave him a secret sick *thrill* to allow more dominant types to "force" him to do Things No Decent Person Would Ever Do. I don't think that he fought very hard against it at all. I think that he kinda liked it." ********************************************************************** > > REFERENCES > > This post is continued from part five. It is primarily a response > to messages #45402 (Crouch Sr as Tragic Hero), #45693 (Crouch and > Winky) and #46923 (It's All Winky's Fault), but it also cites or > references message numbers 37476, 38380, 39102, 43010, 44258. > > > For further explanation of the acronyms and theories in this post, > visit Hypothetic Alley at > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ > and Inish Alley at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database? > method=reportRows&tbl=13 The last line is part of Elkins's explanation of FourthManAveryWithImperius. From rvotaw at i-55.com Tue Jan 7 03:08:22 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 21:08:22 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Death in Book 5/ Harry's tears References: Message-ID: <018f01c2b5fa$0b2bb360$d8a1cdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 49333 pepsiboy writes: > Hedwig sandwich, anyone? As much as I'd like to think you're kidding, you may be right. Whether in Book 5 or not. I stumbled across JKR's pet quote looking for something else last weekend. She was asked if Harry could have a dragon for a pet. She said they couldn't be domesticated, regardless of what Hagrid thought. But that Harry might get a different pet someday. Different. I had remembered it as "another pet." But she said different. I wouldn't say I was getting a different pet if I already had one. I'd say I was getting another pet. Hopefully this is a British/American confusion? Please? grindieloe writes: > I do remember Harry crying a few times... granted, not sobbing, but > still... > > 1. You were right about Harry crying in front of Dumbledore in the > hospital wing. That's 1. SS/PS Chapter 17 reads: Dumbledore now became very interested in a bird out on the windowsill, which gave Harry time to dry his eyes on the sheet. He can't have even pretended to be *that* interested in a bird, and drying ones eyes doesn't necessarily mean there are tears pouring out, right? I read that as tears surfacing, not spilling so to speak. > 2. When Hagrid gave Harry the pictures/photo album of his parents in > SS... That's 2. No, he didn't cry there. It says: Harry couldn't speak, but Hagrid understood. Which I read as the kind of thing if you open your mouth to say something you would cry, so you don't open your mouth. > 3. Doesn't he cry at the end of GoF on Mrs. Weasley's shoulder? > That's 3. Chapter 36 GoF: The thing against which he had been fighting on and off ever since he had come out of the maze was threatening to overpower him. He could feel a burning, prickling feeling in the inner corners of his eyes. He blinked and stared up at the ceiling. "It wasn't your fault, Harry," Mrs. Weasley whispered. "I told him to take the cup with me," said Harry. Now the burning feeling was in his throat too. He wished Ron would look away. Mrs. Weasley set the potion down on the bedside cabinet, bent down, and put her arms around Harry. He had no memory of ever being hugged like this, as though by a mother. The full weight of everything he had seen that night seemed to fall in upon him as Mrs. Weasley held him to her. His mother's face, his father's voice, the sight of Cedric, dead on the ground all started spinning in his head until he could heardly bear it, until he was screwing up his face against the howl of misery fighting to get out of him. There was a loud slamming noise . . . The rest of the chapter after the noise is just Mrs. Weasley and Harry breaking apart, Hermione whispering "sorry," Mrs. Weasley wiping her eyes, Harry drinking his potion and going to sleep. So while the tears are coming (thus the burning sensation) they don't spill out. There is another time, in PoA. During dementor lessons, after Harry hears James' voice: PoA Chapter 12: Harry suddenly realized that there were tears on his face mingling with the sweat. He bent his face as low as possible, wiping them off on his robes, pretending to do up his shoelace, so that Lupin wouldn't see. As soon as Harry realized he was crying, he eliminated the evidence. I think in order for the emotional healing to take effect, a good cry is needed. An all out sobbing, from the heart cry. (Let's face it, I'm female, I have one of these once a month whether I want it or not!) Not a "guy" thing to do naturally. But something will happen and put it over the edge and tears will come. Really come. Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From noir_l at yahoo.com Tue Jan 7 00:51:27 2003 From: noir_l at yahoo.com (lindsay L) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 16:51:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: What if Tom Riddle won? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030107005127.67807.qmail@web11406.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49334 Pepsiboy wrote: I was always curious as to what would have happened if Tom won? And what would happen if he'd met Voldemort? Would they have worked together, or fight it out since one couldn't abide the existence of the other? Just a random thought.. -Pep Lindsay: I've thought of that too. I personally think they would try to get rid of the other and may the best Voldemort win. I think they would feel there is only room in the world for one Dark Lord. I don't think they could work harmoniuosly, they seem solitary by nature. Not only that, there might be a fight over the Death Eaters and who can keep their loyalty because some may side with the younger Riddle and some may stay. Not to mention poor Ginny might be dead! Who still has a little of Tom's soul in her since she was not destroyed but Tom poured some of his soul in her before he was destroyed(or was that little bit of Tom in Ginny also destroyed when the diary was?)Anyways, that is a fun little thought to ponder, thanks for bringing it up. -Lindsay :) From snorth at ucla.edu Tue Jan 7 02:16:58 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 18:16:58 -0800 Subject: RE-I don't expect a complete bloodbath and a Question References: <20030106235802.46074.qmail@web40506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004501c2b5f2$e9621eb0$0100a8c0@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 49335 Snuffles wrote: Sirius points out that he didn't even have a trial before he was sent to Azkaban. I hardly think they would have wasted time with the Veritaserum. Basically the MoM wanted someone in Azkaban for the crimes. Sirius looked pretty darn guilty on that street. Maria Wrote: I have always taken Sirius' words about his not getting a trial literally, but maybe we shouldn't do so. It could have been the kind of trial Harry saw in the Pensieve, with Crouch both acting as prosecutor and judge and yelling all the time. Besides, people at that time were so scared that it's ridiculous even to think of the jury being objective. Me: I'm not sure if there's a conflict here, but there's a line in PoA (chapter 21, Hermione's Secret, pg. 392 US first edition) that would indicate that Sirius wasn't thrown into Azkaban as soon as he was apprehended on the street (literally, nothing even close to a trial). Dumbledore actually states that he gives testimony that Sirius was the Potters' secret keeper, so it would seem that there was evidence given at some point (even if Sirius was never allowed to testify himself). -Scott From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Tue Jan 7 03:21:11 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 19:21:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Veritaserum & Sirius' trial (was Re - Veritaserum) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030107032111.5384.qmail@web40504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49336 Meg wrote: What is to preclude Sirius from having taken Veritaserum? Depending on what he was asked, he may have been able to truthfully respond that he killed the Potters. It is certainly what he believes. From Ch. 17 and 19 PoA (U.S. Hardback): "You killed my parents," said Harry, his voice shaking slightly, but his wand hand quite steady. Black stared up at him out of those sunken eyes. "I don't deny it," he said very quietly. "But if you knew the whole story" (p. 341-2) In both sections, Sirius says that he killed the Potters. If under Veritaserum, he was asked "Did you kill the Potters?", he would have replied "Yes" and been truthful since he believed that in switching Secret-Keepers, he was to blame for their deaths. Unless he was asked how he killed them, and I don't think the MoM cared to know how, he would have taken the blame for their death. So it is possible that he really did confess to the crime. Me: Yeah, except MoM *knows* Sirius didn't kill the Potters, but that Voldemort did. They wouldn't ask if S killed J&L, so S wouldn't have the opportunity to say he did. They would, though, ask if Sirius betrayed the secret to Voldemort, or if he was a spy. To the former I honestly don't know what Sirius would have answered, probably 'no,' (but who knows) but the latter would have definitely gotten a negative answer. That's why I think a truth potion wasn't actually used. Also, I just thought of another thing. Is it possible that Sirius takes all the blame for what had happened when he talks to Harry in POA because of his 12 years in Azkaban and when everything had just happened he would care more about exposing PP as a spy and clearing his own name? I would imagine that when the initial shock after the Potters' death and confronting PP, Sirius would tell exactly what role he played etc. *If* he got the chance! My guess is that they either sent him off to Azkaban with the first available vehicle, or, like I said in a previous post, threw him, the poor, traumatized boy (he wasn't must older that Crouch Jr at the time, I guess), into a room with a crazy, frothing at the mouth Crouch and scared out of their wits jurors who were more than a bit relieved to have a chance to throw another DE in jail, which they promptly did. Some trial! I know this last paragraph doesn't make much sense, I certainly don't get it yet (amazing how long it takes me to process my own thoughts). Does anyone have any thoughts (about this :))? Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mrleach74 at msn.com Tue Jan 7 03:28:16 2003 From: mrleach74 at msn.com (gryffindor02356 ) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 03:28:16 -0000 Subject: Death In OotP/ Books 6 and 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49337 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Laura " wrote: > Danny Tenenbaum wrote: > > > > >snip > Here are my predictions: > > Book 5: > Dumbledore The Creeveys Arabella Figg Fudge > Book 6: > Pettigrew > Lupin > Igor Karkaroff > Book 7: > Draco and Lucius > Harry > Ron > > And of course, random DEs... snip At the end of PoA, Dumbledore tells Harry "Pettigrew owes his life to you. You have sent Voldemort a deputy who is in your debt...When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it creates a certain bond between them...and I'm much mistaken if Voldemort wants his servant in the debt of Harry Potter." Perhaps there will be a time in one of the last books where it is a final showdown between Harry and Voldemort and Wormtail comes to the rescue (but dies in the process???) Matt aka gryffindor02356 From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Tue Jan 7 04:43:15 2003 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 20:43:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [filk] Victor Krum Message-ID: <20030107044315.45389.qmail@web40304.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49338 VICTOR KRUM to the tune of "Here Comes The Sun" by the Beatles (Gail gave me a link, but I lost it...*sheepish grin*...hopefully you know the tune already.) Dedicated to Gail, because she asked so nicely and gave me her brilliant idea. Also dedicated to George Harrison, may he rest in peace. (The Scene: Before the QWC, the Trio are looking at all the posters of Bulgaria?s Seeker) RON: That?s Victor Krum HERMIONE: What was that Ron? RON: That?s Victor Krum and I say he?s all right! Quidditch Player; he is the Bulgarian Seeker Quidditch Player; and he is young, he?s just eighteen He?s Victor Krum, what a Seeker! That bloke ain?t dumb, wait till you see him play! HERMIONE: He looks grumpy RON: Who cares what expression he?s making? HERMIONE: He walks ducky RON: Who cares? He?s like a bird in flight He?s Victor Krum...what a genius! He?s Victor Krum, and I say he?s all right Krum, Krum, Krum, Victor Krum Krum, Krum, Krum, Victor Krum Krum, Krum, Krum, Victor Krum Krum, Krum, Krum, Victor Krum Krum, Krum, Krum, Victor Krum (During the game...) RON: Krum was feinting! HERMIONE: That "Wonky Faint" is really dangerous! Nose is painting his scarlet robes a darker hue That Victor Krum ...he was brave, though... Brave Victor Krum! But he looks quite the mess ~Lilac~ PS to Gail: "Dobby Road" is now finished...which album is next, boss? ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Professor, can you show me that blocking thing again?" Lockhart cuffed Harry merrily on the shoulder. "Just do what I did, Harry!" "What, drop my wand?" --Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Tue Jan 7 04:50:12 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius ) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 04:50:12 -0000 Subject: Petunia (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49339 Petunia To the tune of Noel Coward's Nina (from his 1945 revue Sigh No More) Dedicated to Lilac (the anti-Petunia) THE SCENE: Privet Drive. Enter HARRY and the teenage PETUNIA EVANS (in 60-ish attire) HARRY Of Aunt Petunia I shall now croon ya She had a sister To whom she'd never lend a hand to help assist her And then one day there came a letter from a bird It's said, that things `tween her and Lily Grew much more chilly And rather vicious She found her sister's choice of school to be malicious And promptly ridiculed her use of Latin words She added firmly that she hated The swish of swift broomsticks during a Quidditch game She also absolutely stated That she would not converse with picture frames PETUNIA Such supernatural abuses When she pincushions produces Or her brewing Polyjuices No excuses Should be made For Muggle byways are betrayed By all this magic she's displayed! HARRY She lectured her folks to take heed: PETUNIA (as if to her parents) Hogwarts is still rank, Mom! And there is no way I'll read Any books by L. Frank Baum For they are all stink bombs HARRY While she was deeply out of humour, Said Aunt Petunia: PETUNIA (as if to Lilly) You have through fraud passed Those phony old magical courses that they broadcast And if that angers you, then turn me to a bat! I think that schools should teach one physics And maybe classics With recreation But all this studying the art of Apparation Is even dumber that than singing Sorting Hat HARRY She wished no success to the Express Whenever Lily boarded it Lily drove her to heights of excess When as Head Girl she was ordered it PETUNIA Should have aborted it! HARRY When Vernon came to importune ya And tried to swoon ya With a proposal Which he did upon his bended knee disclose'll She thought she ought to take it to flee Lily's jive After a festive celebration She made migration And found a suburb That she was very quick to rate as being superb And so she shunned the magic life on Privet Drive (PETUNIA transfigures into her adult self) There surely never was a Baby Boomer As self-absorbed as Aunt Petunia She proved the ultimate consumer And much in touch with every rumour She had a boy she fed so well But wouldn't teach him how to spell-ell-ell . BOTH He won't cast spells! Ole! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm Note: The original song (which I recommend highly) has a strong Latin rhythm. It was intended by Coward as a parody of all those moonlit "south-of-the-border" popular songs. The heroine of the title is an utterly prosaic young Argentine woman who sees nothing romantic whatsoever about her native climes She said, 'I've seen too many movies And all they prove is Too idiotic, They all insist that South America's exotic Whereas it couldn't be more boring if it tried. Nina's intense hatred of dance reminded me of Petunia's hatred of magic. The full text can be found here: http://www.e-tabs.org/tab/noel_coward/nina I use a shortened version of the song, matching Coward's rendition on a 4-CD set, "The Master's Voice" http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/- /B000002SKM/qid=1041913268/sr=1-32/ref=sr_1_32/002-5070723-3712021? v=glance&s=music#product-details Unfortunately, no MIDI or audio files that I can find From tahewitt at yahoo.com Tue Jan 7 05:26:20 2003 From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 21:26:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Harry's Tears In-Reply-To: <1041905049.4275.10676.m15@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030107052620.71237.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49340 grindieloe wrote in reply to my post: I do remember Harry crying a few times... granted, not sobbing, but still... 1. You were right about Harry crying in front of Dumbledore in the hospital wing. That's 1. 2. When Hagrid gave Harry the pictures/photo album of his parents in SS... That's 2. 3. Doesn't he cry at the end of GoF on Mrs. Weasley's shoulder? That's 3. Now me: I forgot about the picture album tears. I think you're right there. But, Harry doesn't cry at the end of GoF. As I remember it (again, I don't have the books in front of me, I read borrowed copies), Mrs. Weasley hugged him, and Harry felt it all rising to the surface. Hermione, seeing his face all scowled up and about to let loose with tears, gives him the sleeping potion and he falls asleep. It was this lack of emotional release that I found unsettling, and I think this particular episode of Harry NOT crying is what may be driving the speculation that his tears will play an important role later on. Tyler From datalaur at yahoo.com Tue Jan 7 05:01:30 2003 From: datalaur at yahoo.com (datalaur ) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 05:01:30 -0000 Subject: The ethics of Veritaserum (was "I don't expect a complete bloodbath and a Question") In-Reply-To: <16807E14.0633106E.F1060DB4@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49341 > Joanne: > > > And why in the world does Snape walk around with > > Veritaserum in his pocket? I think it's just as plausible that Snape has a bottle of some clear liquid, say water, that he carries around and *calls* Veritaserum as a prop for scaring the bejesus out of the little reprobates. I mean, Snape does a lot of threatening, it seems, but very little carrying out of real threats. The worst I can think of, off the cuff, is threatening Neville's frog -- and surely Snape could tell if the potion was made properly. And even if not, killing a frog can hardly be equated with using highly-regulated truth-potion on a student. Kind of a Snapey version of tough love in getting students to pay attention during danger. laur From sixhoursahead at yahoo.com Tue Jan 7 10:14:43 2003 From: sixhoursahead at yahoo.com (Angela Evans) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 02:14:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: DE Bagman OR Cowardly Karkaroff? (WAS Too little credit...) In-Reply-To: <6d.67a8569.2b4b6743@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030107101443.61003.qmail@web14608.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49342 kewiromeo at aol.com wrote: <> Me: This gets away from the original topic of your post, but this has been bothering me more and more lately. If you asked me right now which DE was "too cowardly to return"and "fled"the night of the Tournatment, I would say it was Karkaroff. But I am having a harder and harder time believing that Bagman was simply this red herring never to be heard from again. He does flee that exact night also. Has he run away from ever? A top Ministry official leaves wizarding society because of (albeit substanstial) gambling debts? In the Pensieve scenes, I know that many people found Bagman's trial to be humorous. How after he has just been acquitted for the atrocity of being a DE and spy, people begin comgratulating him on last week's quidditch match. But even the first time I read it, I found that ominous. That people were so willing to believe Bagman because he was this affable sports hero. And Fred and george's explanation that he was too much of a "stupid git" to be helping Voldemort doesn't put my fears to rest. I mean, look at Crabbe and Goyle Sr. I am not saying that at the time of the Tournament Bagman was still loyal to Voldemort (possibly?). But could Bagman have been a DE? If he WAS then he was possibly the only former DE to be presently living a life of such high profile, and good reputation, and such an important ministry position. Maybe he had gotten very used to all this, and the return of the Dark Mark brought no desire to return to LV. And so he ran. And in the chaos his dissapearance gets explained away. Karkaroff never denied having been a DE. He is a known "reformed" DE. So why WOULDN'T he take refuge at Hogwart's? Pride? Maybe. He seem like a proud and pompous individual, but he also seems out to save his own ass at all costs. If Bagman was the "cowardly" DE, then the position of "left me forever" DE goes back into contention. It could be Karkaroff. Which makes for some very interesting developments in the Snape side of things. Bottom line, I do not wholely believe my own theory. But it bugs me how Bagman vanished off the scene in such a manner. And JKR doesn't seem the type to invest so much in one character (he appears throughout the book constantly, we see his history, he is involved with a book-long subplot involving the twins, and somes under suspicion by us, Harry, and Sirius, for trying to aid Harry in the Tournament) and then simply say that all of his actions come to naught. Thoughts? ANGELA --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jan 7 10:31:44 2003 From: amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk (amy_marblefeet ) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 10:31:44 -0000 Subject: Emotion release (was: Harry's tears) In-Reply-To: <20030106031824.32267.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49343 Tyler wrote: >I was really hoping Harry would have a good sob at the end of GoF. >Hell, I needed emotional release after reading it, I'm sure Harry >needed some as well! I needed some too. I am also rather frustrated at the lack portrayal of very powerful emotions in the book, especially that of grief. You are right though, Harry does cry in PS/SS at the end where Dumbledore tells him of his mother's "ancient magic" of love that protected him. But rather than let him have a good cry and for Dumbledore to tell Harry that it is OK to cry he "became very interested in a bird out on the window-sill which gave Harry time to dry his eyes on his sheet." Even at the end of GoF Harry is denied an emotional release by Hermiones capture of Rita Skeeter. "Now the burning feeling was in his throat, too. He wished Ron would look away. .... he was screwing up his face against the howl of misery fighting to get out of him. There was a loud slamming noise and Harry and Mrs Weasly broke apart...." Then Harry drinks his potion and becomes detached for the rest of the term spending it quietly with Ron and Hermione. Anger, resentment and most headstrong emotions are portrayed very well in the books especially from the characters of Harry and Snape. But there has yet to be a truly emotional scene where a main character breaks down completely and looses himself in grief. Hermione has cried a good deal but that was under stress and not grief. Another emotion that I feel is missing is fear. The kind that Ron quite painfully felt in CoS when he followed the spiders with Harry. Yes, Harry has been scared but too many things have been happening, distracting him from the type of fear that builds over time. The feeling that something bad could happen at anytime, the fact he is going to die, the type of fear that would make even a reader change their underwear. I hope in future books if and when Harry is captured he is made to wait in a closed off cell listening to the torture of his friends, knowing he is next. Now that is fear. Amy From urbana at charter.net Tue Jan 7 14:39:05 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne ) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 14:39:05 -0000 Subject: FILK idea Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49345 I've seen many filks on this list so perhaps this is the right place to post an idea for a filk. I checked on the Harry Potter Filks website and couldn't find anything like this, so here goes. We don't know much about Hermione's parents, but we do know that they seem to have accepted and perhaps even embraced the fact that she's a witch. They also seem to be quite proud of Hermione both as a person and as a student. As compared to the Dursleys and most muggles, the Grangers are very forward-thinking. You might even called them modern ... thoroughly modern... especially for Muggles... perhaps even Thoroughly Modern Muggles??:-) I'm not a filker; I'm neither clever nor patient enough (nor well enough informed on the source material) to write a Harry Potter filk. Nevertheless I have eked out a tiny start and ending (not exactly like JKR telling us that the last word of the series will be "scar";). So here goes: Thoroughly Modern Muggles Her-mio-ne's parents are thoroughly modern (and they're glad that she's a witch) Dum de dum de dum de dum de dum da... etc. etc. etc. (last line of chorus) They're Thoroughly Modern Muggles now.... That's all I can do. Take it away, Caius, Gail, et al:-) Anne U (hoping this is filk-worthy) From rbroeker at hotmail.com Tue Jan 7 14:43:19 2003 From: rbroeker at hotmail.com (beccafran ) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 14:43:19 -0000 Subject: DE Bagman In-Reply-To: <20030107101443.61003.qmail@web14608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49346 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Angela Evans wrote: In the Pensieve scenes, I know that many people found Bagman's trial to be humorous. How after he has just been acquitted for the atrocity of being a DE and spy, people begin comgratulating him on last week's quidditch match. But even the first time I read it, I found that ominous. That people were so willing to believe Bagman because he was this affable sports hero. And Fred and george's explanation that he was too much of a "stupid git" to be helping Voldemort doesn't put my fears to rest. I mean, look at Crabbe and Goyle Sr. I am not saying that at the time of the Tournament Bagman was still loyal to Voldemort (possibly?). But could Bagman have been a DE? If he WAS then he was possibly the only former DE to be presently living a life of such high profile, and good reputation, and such an important ministry position. Maybe he had gotten very used to all this, and the return of the Dark Mark brought no desire to return to LV. And so he ran. And in the chaos his dissapearance gets explained away. Bottom line, I do not wholely believe my own theory. But it bugs me how Bagman vanished off the scene in such a manner. And JKR doesn't seem the type to invest so much in one character (he appears throughout the book constantly, we see his history, he is involved with a book-long subplot involving the twins, and somes under suspicion by us, Harry, and Sirius, for trying to aid Harry in the Tournament) and then simply say that all of his actions come to naught. ------ Angela brings up a good point that had been bothering me as well. Not only does JKR spend all that attention on a character who turns out to be only marginally involved in the plot (if that), she gives us TWO warnings about him. I don't have my books, so these are off the top of my head... Winky warns us that Bagman is a "very bad wizard" or something to that effect, and Rita Skeeter says "I know things about Ludo Bagman that would make your hair curl." I seriously doubt that Rita is referring to Bagman *accidentally* passing information to Voldemort, or that JKR invested all this time in him just to throw us off. I would bet that Evil!Bagman will play a part in the future. This brings up another point. Is Rita saying she knows things, evil scandalous things, about Bagman but hasn't printed them? Why is that? I had assumed that she was just obnoxious, but maybe she is involved in this evilness as well. Hmmmm... I'm finding this idea very intriguing. Anyone who knows more about Rita (or has GoF handy) want to theorize? BeccaFran From melclaros at yahoo.com Tue Jan 7 14:54:55 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros ) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 14:54:55 -0000 Subject: The ethics of Veritaserum (was "I don't expect a complete bloodbath and a Question") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49347 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Joanne Sammer to > > And why in the world does Snape walk around with Veritaserum in his pocket? > He doesn't! He had to go get it when Dumbledore wanted to interrogate Crouch in GOF. I don't have the book in front of me but I remember him sending Severus to "bring back the strongest truth potion you have" and Winky. Now, I suppose you could say he had the veritaserum with him all along and only went to fetch Winky but.... Anyway I don't think he was going to give veritaserum to Harry. He was just pushing his buttons "as only Snape can". Melpomene From melclaros at yahoo.com Tue Jan 7 15:09:10 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros ) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 15:09:10 -0000 Subject: The ethics of Veritaserum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49348 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak " wrote: creepy. > It's not just the theft; it's the fact that Polyjuice is dangerous. > Several weeks in hospital because Hermione used the wrong hair... I > think Snape may be furious simply because he can't believe the Trio > could be so *stupid* as to try Polyjuice again. > You know, it has always annoyed me that nothing more was said about this Feline!Hermione in the hospital situation. It defies logic to think that Snape didn't have to be involved in making the antidote to bring the little twit back to her non-feline self again. If Polyjuice itself is so complicated a potion, imagine how complex the antidote must be for when it goes wrong. Think of the permutations! Snape *had* to have been absolutely livid! But since her botched transformation didn't wear off after an hour and she spent all that time in hospital, we have to assume that as usual he toed the line and brewed the cure. Hmmmmm, he could have just said "She deserved it." Melpomene From robgonz0 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 7 15:14:09 2003 From: robgonz0 at yahoo.com (Robert Gonzalez) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 09:14:09 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Muggle-borns References: Message-ID: <002d01c2b65f$88bf9340$32951c18@satx.rr.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49349 ----- Original Message ----- From: Snipped a long discussion on the intricicies of magic blood. > Point- the is no absolute definition of a 'mudblood'. > me: But that's the point. It's a prejudice and prejudice has no rhyme or reason for instance Hilter was said to have been half Jewish and evidence points to attempts to cover this up. Prejudice is about finding and blaming a scapegoat for whatever problems one seems to have. Malfoy didn't bring up the Mudblood point until after his father had chided him about losing out to Hermione gradeswise. Rob From tahewitt at yahoo.com Tue Jan 7 18:16:38 2003 From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 10:16:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: harry's tears (again) In-Reply-To: <1041947743.1421.71338.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030107181638.49618.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49350 Amy wrote: Anger, resentment and most headstrong emotions are portrayed very well in the books especially from the characters of Harry and Snape. But there has yet to be a truly emotional scene where a main character breaks down completely and looses himself in grief. Hermione has cried a good deal but that was under stress and not grief. My reply: I agree with you there, but think (in Harry's case) it may have to do with JKP accurately portraying teenage boys. The couple of times in the books Harry has had teary eyes, he wipes them quickly so that no one will see. >From GoF, "Now the burning feeling was in his throat, too. He wished Ron would look away. .... he was screwing up his face against the howl of misery fighting to get out of him." Wishing Ron would look away is key here. Teenage boys struggle a lot with appearing tough and not showing emotion, especially in front of friends (it's pretty hellish, too, I know from personal experience!). As an adult I understand the value of an emotional release like crying. Teenage boys aren't so lucky, and if they have to cry will try to do so in seclusion. Tyler __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From suzloua at hotmail.com Tue Jan 7 18:30:38 2003 From: suzloua at hotmail.com (Susan Atherton) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 18:30:38 -0000 Subject: Only one Dumbledore and the Time Turner? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49351 >sagelyone wrote: >In PoA, when the trio goes to see Hagrid prior to McNair and company, is Dumbledore with them? I recall that he is there but I think HRH leave the hut before they see Dumbledore. They may be headed towards the dog and cat by the time Dumbledore & co. first speak in the hut. Me: Dumbledore is NOT with them. He comes down after them with McNair et al, and they have to leave when Hagrid hears him coming. They (HRH, aka HH1) never see him. Only HH2 see him. >Sagelyone: We know that when Harry and Hermonine go back with the time turner, they hear DD saying, "Oh wait, McNair, you forgot to sign here." (Sorry I don't have my books or tapes available.) It seems as is DD *knows* that Harry and Heromine need a few more seconds to pull Buckbeak away. Granted DD knows almost everything (I think he can see through invisibility cloaks in some way), but I sense there's much more to his amusement there. He also tells the MoM guys to search the skies, withdrawing attention from the grounds. Me: I brought up a point last week about being Invisibility Cloaks which lead to a discussion about Dumbledore's glasses. I believe they work in a similar way to Moody's eye, and he could see that HH2 were having trouble with Beaky. Of course, he could just be telling McNair he forgot to sign it. (If DD saw HH2 out of the window/through the wall, it puts paid to the theory of DD not knowing HH2 existed, but instead only knowing Buckbeak got away, and perhaps if HH1 (in his eyes the ONLY HH) used the Time Turner, they could be the ones who freed him... my effort at DD's thinking) Sagelyone: >I've been wondering: what if DD watched all of this from his office window the first time around? I know Hagrid said that DD was going to be there regardless, but I'm sensing that our good wizard is doing quite a bit more in the space/time continum than we/I realize. A part of me suggests that he went back in time with Harry and Hermonine, but I just don't know. Me: ~shakes head~ I hate this time thing. It's confusing as all get out - I understand it in my head, but trying to articulate it is so difficult! Here goes: DD didn't watch anything from his office the first time around, because there WAS no first time around. DD didn't have the opportunity to time-turn, because just as HH1 lost sight of him, HH2 caught up to him - one or the other version of Harry and Hermione was watching him at all times. DD was always in the hut. Buckbeak always escaped. DD knew this, and when he gave HH1 the hint about "two innocent lives" just before they became HH2, he was tipping them off to Buckbeak's apparent escape, NOT Buckbeak's rescue (he probably had his suspicions, but didn't know for certain Beaky hadn't just pulled himself free and flown off). Imagine it like this: 6pm 9pm time turned period 12am ---->The Future----> --------------------------------------------------------->Dumbledore and the rest of the world ------------------------------------------|HH1 |------------------------------------------>HH2 Dumbledore's timeline goes on in one straight line, but imagine the end of HH1's line linking back to the beginning of HH2's, and then imagine that line overlaid on top of Dumbledore's. (Confusing, I know!) At, say, 12am, HH1 CEASED TO EXIST, because they became HH2, who were essentially born at 9pm that night. For three hours (9pm-12am) both versions of Harry and Hermione co-existed, and then at midnight, HH1 disappeared into the ether (well, the past, but you know) and HH2 became the ONLY version of Harry and Hermione. Until 9pm, there was ONLY HH1, and had been their whole lives previously; after 12am, there was ONLY HH2, and continued to be for the rest of their lives (or until next time they time-turn ;) ) (BTW, I'm just picking 9-12 as a random 3hrs; it could be 7-10 for all I know, or anything else). Understand? Good, now you can explain to to me :) >Sagelyone: >I am confused about the last part of the work with the Time Turner. When DD locks them in the room the "first time" how do they get out of the ward without bumping into themselves considering they're also running down the hall to meet a beaming DD? My understanding is that he listens at the door and says, "I think you've gone now." Because when HH2 left the area, it was three hours ago, and they weren't locked in the hospital wing. Nobody was locked in there at 9pm. I'm assuming you mean how did HH2 get out of the ward, without bumping into themselves? Because the HH running down the hall to meet a beaming DD were also HH2, and HH2 can't bump into HH2, because they ARE HH2. If you start to think of them as two separate entities, it starts to make a bit more sense. He (DD) says goodbye to HH1 at 12am, and is about to lock them in, when suddenly HH2 run up to him. As they are blurting out that they did it, and Sirius has escaped, Harry1 is being grabbed by Hermione1 on the other side of the door and hustled under her TT chain. As Dumbledore listens to the door, HH1 have just time-turned, and no longer exist - they've just disappeared back to 9pm and become HH2. However, they've become the HH2 of three hours ago, of 9pm, and not the HH2 of 12am, who are currently standing outside the hospital wing door with DD. DD listens, can't hear HH1, so he lets HH2 in and locks them in. From his perspective, as soon as he shuts the door on Harry and Hermione, they reappear behind him. However, WE know he's just shut the door on HH1 and it's HH2 who are behind him. To him and the rest of the WW, Harry Potter, Hermione Granger and Ron Weasley were locked in the hospital wing from 12am onwards, until Sirius' escape is discovered. To Harry Potter and Hermione Granger, they actually got up to another three hours of mischief. If Ron had been awake, he would have seen Harry and Hermione vanish into thin air (HH1), and then another Harry and Hermione (HH2) come in a few seconds later and be locked in by Dumbledore. Nobody missed them, because technically, they never actually went anywhere. Is there a second door in the hospital wing? Or did the TimeTurner transplant them from the room to the entrance hall? Is Dumbledore's magically locking of the door silent compared to a manual locking of the door? This whole scene completely confuses me. There is no second door. However, one small problem I've had is that HH1 disappeared from the hospital wing, but reappeared in the entrance hall, right? ~runs off to get PoA~ Yes, I've just double-checked, and they disappear from "the dark ward" but reappear in the "deserted Entrance Hall". Now that's moving space as well as time, and THAT'S confusing, because JKR always seemed to go in for the time-not-space rule, rather than the time machine thing of moving through both space and time (like driving the DeLorean in Back to the Future, which moves you from point A to point B as well as from time A to time B). I suppose Harry could have been utterly confused and Hermione dragged him outside before he realised it, but canon doesn't support that, and it says he'd no sooner realised where he was than H2 dragged him into a broom cupboard! Anyway, that to me is a FLINT, so I can't help you there. But I hope my explanation of the time thing has helped. Just please don't start asking me about person-X and the Patronus casting... ~groans as she wonders where the Migraleve is from last week~ Susan who hopes the TT does make a reappearance, because she understands it (or thinks she does) but hates trying to explain it and not having the words! ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Susan, Kayti, Lorna and Noj - the Bridget, Jude, Shazza and Tom of the future! Despite constant warnings, you never meet anyone who's had their arm broken by a swan. Men are very like slinkys; a bit pointless but fun to watch fall down stairs. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tahewitt at yahoo.com Tue Jan 7 18:33:46 2003 From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 10:33:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: A theory about Harry (kind of long, sorry!) In-Reply-To: <1041947743.1421.71338.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030107183346.38089.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49352 A few days ago, Diana wrote: Does Harry's presence inflict anything onto Voldemort [besides livid hatred, I mean]? We've seen no evidence of Voldemort suffering so much as a hang-nail because of Harry's presence, so I doubt it. But still, it would be a nice twist if Voldemort suddenly got some of that back tenfold. Harry is obviously made of very sturdy stuff and is *very* special indeed because he withstood all that pain and successfully faced death, fought back and won at the tender age of 14. Now I'm wondering why Harry is able to withstand that much pain. The Harry as heir of Gryffindor theory springs to mind, but is there something else in Harry's bloodline that could help explain this? If it's only because Harry is very strong-willed, noble and brave, that's okay, I guess, but I wonder... My reply: This hits pretty close to a theory Ive been formulating (actually, its mostly my partners theory, I just embelished it a little). If someone has come up with this already, accept my apopogies. Im new to all this and am not purposefully trying to step on anyones toes. The theory: Ive always felt that there was more to the story of Harrys survival the night his parents were killed than weve been told. All we know for sure is that by giving her life to protect her son, Lily cast a powerful protective spell over Harry. But that dosent seem like enough. Theres got to be another reason Harry survived that night. After the big buildup, the events as we know them now seem anticlimatic. What if Harry was concieved specifically to fight Voldemort? Voldemort would have been in full force at the time of Harrys conception; could his parents have purposefully done something at that time to ensure that their child would grow up to defeat evil? If Voldemort knew this, it would give him reason to go after Harry, which seems to have been his intent on that night. Voldemort was able to manifest in GoF through a spell which needed a sacrifice from a willing servant, ashes of his father, and blood of his enemy. Couldent a similar spell (a white magic one) have been cast to create a being (Harry) that would grow up to defeat Voldemort? I picture a spell of this nature needing something (blood? or maybe hair/nail clippings, etc. like in a polyjuice potion) from Voldemort to work. Obtaining it would be pretty difficult, and might require the services of someone like a spy or turncoat (Snape?). If Voldemorts blood is in Harry, it might somehow make him difficult to defeat. It could also help to explain some odd connections between Voldemort and Harry (similar wands, etc). It unfortunalely, might also mean that Harry would die with Voldemort. If they are magically linked, if one dies, the other would as well. Theres a paragraph near the end of GoF where Harry senses a slight smile on Dumbledores face when he tells Dumbledore that Voldemort used Harrys blood to manifest. Its a creepy little detail that leaves the reader wondering. It is also a seperate paragraph in the book, and reading the HP books has taught me that this makes the event important. Important details get their own space in these books. What if Voldemorts use of Harrys blood somehow strengthens the spell used to create Harry, or makes Voldemort weaker, or makes it possible for Harry to defeat him without dying? This could be why Dumbledore smiles when he hears this. I really dont have any tangible clues to support this theory but for one small one: name irony (a person or object having a name that reflects on the thing that is named). The HP books are full of name irony. Much of it is lighthearted-a Herbology teacher named Sprout, for example. Othertimes, its more like a clue (Remus Lupin-Lupin is close to Lupine, which means wolflike, Remus and Romulus were twins who suckled at the teat of a she-wolf in Roman mythology). I suggest that the name Dumbledore has meaning. Dumbledore is old English for bumblebee. What does a bumblebee do? Pollinate. In its search for nectar, a bumblebee spreads pollen, fertilising flowers (in The Botany of Desire, author Michael Pollen refres to bees as flying penises). Dumbledore could have been the one who cast the spell, or gathered ingredients, or otherwise helped Lily and James pollinate their special creation. JKR has apperantly claimed that she just liked the word dumbledore, but we wouldent expect her to divulge a clue that large, would we? One more small tidbit about bumblebees-they are solitary, they dont hive like other bees. Sounds a little like Dumbledore, doesnt it? Comments? Tyler __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From srsiriusblack at aol.com Tue Jan 7 19:06:22 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 14:06:22 EST Subject: Snape and Neville Message-ID: <1a6.e9495cf.2b4c7f2e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49353 In a message dated 07/01/2003 02:39:25 Eastern Standard Time, datalaur at yahoo.com writes: > Snape does a lot of threatening, it seems, but very little carrying > out of real threats. The worst I can think of, off the cuff, is > threatening Neville's frog -- and surely Snape could tell if the > potion was made properly. And even if not, killing a frog can hardly > be equated with using highly-regulated truth-potion on a student. > Kind of a Snapey version of tough love in getting students to pay > attention during danger. Don't get me wrong, here, I love Snape...... However, I truly believe there is a lot of baddie in him. He psychologically abuses poor Neville when I would think he would know of Neville's past, i.e. his parents losing their mindsbeing raised by what seems to be a stern grandmother, and the distinct possibility that Neville might be under a memory charm, himself, thus causing some of his bumbliness ( I don't actually think "bumbliness" is a word, but I like it.) Now, could there be motive to Snape's harshness to Neville? Possibly. He might be endeavouring to pull Neville's good mind from the memory charm, but he is a right meanie about it all. Another possibility is that Snape deep down does not like to be feared; perhaps a psychological scar left on him from having been a D.E. And, so he wants Neville to stand up to him and overcome his fears. In this process, Neville would grow as a person and learn to respect rather than fear Snape. -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From metal_tiara at hotmail.com Tue Jan 7 19:23:04 2003 From: metal_tiara at hotmail.com (sophineclaire ) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 19:23:04 -0000 Subject: OT: Superstitions regarding Snakes, Lions, Badgers and Eagles, now with comments Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49354 This was originally a reply to Barb's post on the Symbolism of Lions and Snakes. I've added a little extra commentary in connection with the books an it's characters. WHat's in between ( ) is my commentary. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barb wrote: > Barb said > It might be worth noting that Harry has made a "friend" of sorts of a snake before ever arriving at Hogwarts. When he inadvertantly frees the snake at the zoo, it seems rather grateful (and Harry certainly seems to bear the snake no ill will, especially as it was probably very amusing to Harry to see how terrified of it Dudley was). > > I rather like the symbolism of the snake being the symbol of evil by dint of being the Slytherin symbol, but speaking with snakes (being able to communicate with evil) being a talent of Harry's. I also like that we know that Snape is a good guy, since that also brings in the abilities/choices issue and the question of whether a "snake" (real or symbolic) is inherently evil or its ACTIONS that are good or evil. > Now me: I have this book called "Dictionary of Superstitions" by David Pickering. I'm just going to put down what they say here about snakes:: Superstition has always reagrded snakes with fear and respect, crediting them with supernatural powers. Snake cults have thrived in many different parts of the world and snakes occupy and prominent, if not always healthy, position in many of the world's religions, including Christianity. Christian snake-handling sects exist in modern USA, practioners believing that their faith protects them from a venomous snake's bite. The idea of the snake being in some way protective is shared by many traditions; tattoos, for instance, often take the form of a snake pattern, and hanging a snakeskin from the rafters will protect a house from fire. Killing the first snake that a persons sees in the year will, meanwhile, guarantee them victory over any foes over the next twelve months. Snakes are also widely interpreted as a phallic symbol and are therefore strongly associated with various forms of sex magic. ( Killing the first snake of the year: Harry slayed the Basilisk in the CHamber of Secrets sometime between May and June of 1993. This type of protection in itself could have lasted Harry right to the end of POA. Now, he may not have been victorious over all foes in the obvious ways, i.e. Peter getting away, Sirius still guilty etc, but he was victorious in more subtle ways. He saved Buckbeak from certain death, he was able to cast a Patronus and repell the Dementors, he prevented Snape {ignoring MAGICAL DISHWASHER} from giving Sirius to the Dementors, and he was Victorious over Peter by showing a bit of Mercy and now has Peter under a life-debt {should Peter have any sense of honour/pride/remorse to fulfill that debt, we shall see...}) Superstition has chreished a number of misconceptions about snakes. These include the widespread beliefs that all snakes hypnotise their prey; that they inject venom via their forked tongue; that they can all spit their venom and that, according to US tradition, 'hoop snakes' can roll in the form of a hoop at their enemies by seizing their tails in their own mouth. Another popular idea has it that snakes cannot die until the Sun goes down. ( Misconceptions about Snakes, misconceptions about Slytherins. Just as none of the Witches and Wizards who attend and work at Hogwarts are perfect, I think that the FOunders had more than their fair share of flaws, it's just that it seems that there is more focus on the flaws of Slytherin than any other. I'm waiting for the big Whammy about Gryffindor that will blow everything out of the water and shatter many of Harry's perceptions about exactly how noble Godric was {if he has any perceptions about Godric in that way}) Seeing a snake crossing one's path is unlucky, as are dreams about snakes; a pregnant woman who is frightened by a snale may give birth to a child with a constricted neck (though it is also said that snakes will never bite pregnant women). Tying a snakeskin around the waist of a woman in labour will ease childbirth, while carrying a snakeskin is generally supposed to be beneficial to health, effective against headaches and in extracting thorns from the skin. In the USA is it said that women in labour who are fed a drink made from the powdered rattle of a rattlesnake will have an easier time. Carrying a snake's tooth will ward of fever, and one may be carried for luck in gambling. Other uses for snakes in folk medicine include an old English treatment for swollen necks, which requires a live snake to be drawn across the affected part three times and then buried alive in a bottle. Superstition recommends a host of animal and plant preperations for the treatment of snakebites. among the more bizarre is one which claims that rubbing crocodile blood into the bite will negate the effects of the poison. Another course is to tie the dead body of a snake around the wound. To avoid getting bitten by a snake in the first place the simplest course is to wear an emerald ( So generally, the Snake was a more than useful creature in terms of medicine and protection. Maybe in relation to the snake in terms of supersition, Snape is situated in the most appropriate house. I believe there are a couple of medical associations around the world that have snakes incorporated into their logos. This link should explain more {http://www.frankmarrero.com/caduceus.htm} Nice little side note about a peaceful snake called the Phoinix that eats rodents. I like the last bit, with wearing emeralds to protect against the snake bite. Though I would like to see a connection between Harry's eyes and that bit as being part of some grander scheme, Harry was already bitten by a Snake and nearly died because of it. Or maybe Harry has just accept the Slytherin part of his nature and only then will he be able to protect himself and others effectively, rather than argue that he's nothing like those gits in Slytherin.) Barb again: > While the lion (symbol of Gryffindor) traditionally was a killer of snakes (and griffins in particular are supposed to be the enemies of basilisks) I hope that JKR will eventually rise above some of the symbolic rhetoric she's woven into the text and show that all snakes/Slytherins are not destined for evil--just as we know, because of Peter Pettigrew, that all lions/Gryffindors are not necessarily good. > >From the same book, only about lions: As the 'King of the Animals', the lion is said to be virtually fearless; as a result, most traditions surrounding it reflects its strength and regal bearing ( feeding a little lion heart to a child, for instance, will make it grow up healthy and courageous). only when faced with a gamecock, which refuses to acknowledge the lion's rank, will the animal betray anything like trepidation. ( I suppose we could argue about this all day as to whether Snape is like a gamecock, but Snape does recognize that dear ol' James held a higher social and academic position at Hogwarts then he did. Snape just didn't like it, that's all { No! I will not go into the Prank, I will not go into the Prank....}) Superstition claims that a lion will never kill a fellow king and the lions formerly held in the Tower of London were siad to be mysteriously attuned to the well being of the English sovereign: if one of the lions died then the ailing monarch's days were surely numbered. Any warrior going into battle dressed in a lion's skin could congratulate himself on the certain knowledge that no harm could befall him. ( Lets suppose that the prank occured in either the 5th or 6th years at Hogwarts and both Severus and James were Prefects { Ignoring my beloved Sirius was the prefect theory}. For their year, they were the 'Kings' of their respective houses. In comes the Prank and James saves Severus because a Lion would never kill a fellow king. That's just artsy interpretation #1. Artsy interpretation #2; Voldemort may not be an official sovereign or a minister of Magic, but he did have a firm control over the Wizarding world during his first wave. He kills Lily and he days with a human body are numbered. Artsy interpretation #3; the Invisibility cloak was pretty much the Lion's skin for the Maurauders and Harry. What harm can befall someone who's invisible? Harry certainly had some close calls with Snape but he always seem to get off almost scot-free.) Lionesses are said to breed every seventh year, an event that is marked by a larger number of stillbirhs among other species, including humans. Other supersitions state that lions sleep with their eyes open annd that lion cubs are born dead and remain so until their parents breathe life into them. ( It's been mentioned that Harry's class could be especially small given the time frame in which they were born. A connection? I hope not, because it cheapens the tragedy of Voldemort's reign by associating these deaths with lionesses giving birth and not due to the vindictiveness and evil-doings of some predjudice wizards.) It seems that Snakes are actually a very helpful creature in terms of health and luck for others while Lions have more regal standings and certain concerns about security for themselves. Since I'm on a roll, lets look at Ravens and Badgers For badgers: An ancient rustic belief from Yorkshire regions that the badger has longer legs on one side in order to help it to run across and up a slope. Elsewhere in Europe, Badgers' teeth are particularly prized by gamblers, who claim that carrying one on the person guartees success in any wager as well as bestowing good luck in general. ( Just like the House that Helga built, badgers get the shaft on being interesting. ) For Eagles ( since they are the animal for Ravenclaw, not ravens...): Associated with the gods of both ancient Greeks and Romans, the eagle has always been linked with strength, divinity and immortality. The ancient Egyptians, who worshipped the eagle-headed Horus, believed that the human soul took the form of an eagle after death. Christians, too, see the eagle as a symbol of resurrections. Irish traditions claims that Adam and Eve were turned into Eagles and live to this day off the coast of Galway. In Wales, the eagles of Snowdon were said to raise whirlwinds throughout the land by flapping their wings. (JKR has gone through great pains to make the Phoenix the bird for resurrection and rebirth so I dobt that the Eagle is going to take it's place anytime soon. Maybe a reference as to where Rowena may have come from.) Seeing several eagles flying together is said to be a sign of peace, but if the birds remain motionless on rocky outcrops they are a warning of an enemy's approach. ( Does anyone remember Harry trying to approach Cho amongst all those ravenclaws??) It is widely held that eagles never grow old and that they renew their youth by flying so close to the sun that their feathers catch light and then plunges into the sea, from which they emerge rejuvenated. (As I said, rebirth is being left to the Phoenix, unless one wants to talk about Rowena's more bizarre age-defying remedies.) Their flesh , feathers, eggs and blood are consequently valued as ingredients in the witchcraft of many countries. The eagle is now protected by law and those who persist in plotting to steal an eagle's eggs (which bestow great good luck against witchcraft if eaten by two people) are warned that, if successful, they will nnever again enjoy peace of mind. (Take anything from a Ravenclaw. and you will never forget it.) Many dilike hearing the piercing cry of an eagle, which is taken as an omen of death, and likewise become nervous if they see an eagle hovering for a long time over a particular spot as this too is interpreted as a warning of immeninent demise. (Well, Ravenclaws do play a fair bit of Quidditch. Cho had Cedric doomed from the start *Goes off to find POA to see Cho's exact positions during her matches.*) the heart of an eagle can be used to concoct an effective Aphrodisiac, while its gall bladder should be mixed with honey as it is a remedy for poor eyesight and its marrow is credited by some as having strong powers as a contraceptive. Eating the still warm brains of a dead eagle is said to conjure up fabulous illusions. ( Well, umm, Ewwww. Though given Ravenclaws reputation for book learning, I suppose that they may go to fairly extreme lengths to get those high marks. or laid.) ----SophineClaire ( If only I was this enthusiastic about my classes.) From kewiromeo at aol.com Tue Jan 7 19:39:44 2003 From: kewiromeo at aol.com (kewiromeo at aol.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 14:39:44 EST Subject: Death Eaters Numbers Message-ID: <36.35dc23c3.2b4c8700@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49355 I have mentioned before that there were only a handful or so of death eaters. Now can someone explain to me what exactly Voldermord was doing, and if so, how did he expect to get anything accomplished with that small group of people. We know that there are wizards all around the world. if there are 1,000 or so people at Hogwarts (7 years of people and wizards live about 100 years making there at least 15,000 or so from Hogwarts alone. I don't understand how the power over numbers can triumph. Dumbledore alone seems to be a match for Voldermort, even Harry is a match. Put Dumbledore and Harry and they can outmatch at least 3 of the 15 death eaters. I understand that he has an army of dementors and possibly giants, but it doesn't do it for me. Magic is a little more powerful than that. Perhaps, Fudge is the reason all this can happen. He is stepping aside and letting Voldermort come back and do what he likes till things are so bad you can't help but recognize the discord. Maybe Voldermort was only a terror in England. It doesn't seem to be that he was too important in other countries. When Bagman introduces Harry to the Bulgarian Minister he says that he was the boy who defeated you-know-who, but he was mildly interested. All the Death Eaters seemed to have come from Slytherin, and if that isn't completely so, at least they are all from Hogwarts. I just don't see how all the things add up. Unless there are more involved, and the death eaters were merely his inner circle, but there were much more on his side, things don't make sense. Tzvi of Brooklyn "My cat's breath smells like cat food" --Ralph Wigum, Simpsons [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ebwfadden at yahoo.com Tue Jan 7 19:58:21 2003 From: ebwfadden at yahoo.com (Emily ) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 19:58:21 -0000 Subject: Snape and Neville In-Reply-To: <1a6.e9495cf.2b4c7f2e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49356 So, this is my first post to the group (I've been lurking for a couple weeks, just getting a feel for the dynamic), but this happens to be a topic I've been thinking about as I've been reading and rereading the books. I don't necessarily think that Snape's attitude toward Neville comes from a sense of malice, but perhaps that Snape knows that Neville has a great deal of potential (son of an Auror and so on) that has gone unrealized for reasons that have yet to be revealed in the books (personally I reside in the Memory Charm camp - he shares a lot of the traits that Bertha Jorkins showed when we were introduced to her in GoF), which frustrates him. We know that Snape isn't the most patient guy around and doesn't seem to relate to children especially well; combine that with a student who -just doesn't get it- and you have poor Trevor the Toad being threatened with poison. On a side note, I think that this is similar to the way in which Snape treats Harry. I agree that it has a great deal to do with Snape's hatred for James, but I don't think that is the whole story. The feeling I have gotten throughout the series is that Snape feels that Harry doesn't have the proper amount of respect for, in his opinion, the danger he is in, puts himself in, and puts his friends in. Snape knows the magnitude of Voldemort's evil nature firsthand, and perhaps as a result of his life-debt to James, feels it is his duty to impress this upon Harry. I'd love to see what others have to say on the subject - Neville is one of my favorite characters and personally, I'm looking forward to his growth as the series goes on. Its pretty safe to say that we'll be learning a great deal more about him now that we know the history with his parents. Thanks all! Em - who only started reading the series after Thanksgiving, where her dad was shocked that she hadn't read the books and immediately gave her his copies. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, srsiriusblack at a... wrote: > In a message dated 07/01/2003 02:39:25 Eastern Standard Time, > datalaur at y... writes: > > > > Snape does a lot of threatening, it seems, but very little carrying > > out of real threats. The worst I can think of, off the cuff, is > > threatening Neville's frog -- and surely Snape could tell if the > > potion was made properly. And even if not, killing a frog can hardly > > be equated with using highly-regulated truth-potion on a student. > > Kind of a Snapey version of tough love in getting students to pay > > attention during danger. > > Don't get me wrong, here, I love Snape...... > > However, I truly believe there is a lot of baddie in him. He psychologically > abuses poor Neville when I would think he would know of Neville's past, i.e. > his parents losing their mindsbeing raised by what seems to be a stern > grandmother, and the distinct possibility that Neville might be under a > memory charm, himself, thus causing some of his bumbliness ( I don't actually > think "bumbliness" is a word, but I like it.) > > Now, could there be motive to Snape's harshness to Neville? Possibly. He > might be endeavouring to pull Neville's good mind from the memory charm, but > he is a right meanie about it all. > > Another possibility is that Snape deep down does not like to be feared; > perhaps a psychological scar left on him from having been a D.E. And, so he > wants Neville to stand up to him and overcome his fears. In this process, > Neville would grow as a person and learn to respect rather than fear Snape. > > -Snuffles > "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the > dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with > open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of > Wisdom > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sgarfio at yahoo.com Tue Jan 7 20:45:16 2003 From: sgarfio at yahoo.com (Sherry Garfio) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 12:45:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Are Parselmouths immune to the Basilisk's stare? WAS: Colour theory, eyes, and Gryffindor Voldemort In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021229040010.02634360@mail.societyhappens.com> Message-ID: <20030107204516.19302.qmail@web21411.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49357 Sometime last year (29 Dec), Sushi wrote: > I don't know if LV would count as all that > brave, but Tom Riddle might have. He certainly took some major risks, > confronting a beast that could have killed him with a glance (the Basilisk) Tying this in with the earlier discussions about lenses, I wonder if maybe Parselmouths would have some sort of resistance or immunity to the Basilisk's stare? We pondered long and hard about whether Harry's glasses would have saved him in the Chamber had he accidentally looked it in the eye before Fawkes blinded it, leading to a long discussion about whether Myrtle would have removed her glasses to cry or whether she died despite seeing the Basilisk through them. But what if there is more to being a Parselmouth than just the ability to speak to snakes? Maybe a Parselmouth has a much greater connection to snakes. Maybe Slytherin was the first Parselmouth, and he invented it with a potion that had Basilisk venom as an ingredient. Or he was bitten by a Basilisk and saved somehow (Phoenix tears?) and this gave him the ability. Either way, the ability transformed him in such a way that his decendents also inherited it. Or maybe I'm just rambling (wouldn't be the first time). One connection I see is that Harry was bitten by a Basilisk in CoS (perhaps the very same Basilisk that bit Salazar Slytherin in my ramblings above) and saved by Phoenix tears. Granted, he was a Parselmouth before that, but this could be yet another connection between Harry and Sally. What if Harry becomes the next Salazar Slytherin? Look at what Hitler accomplished in the name of evil and in the face of world opposition; imagine what he could have accomplished if he had instead taken up the cause of good and had the support of the whole world! Slytherin may have been a horrible bigot who wanted to rid the school (and by extension, the WW) of muggle-borns, but he was one of the most powerful wizards of his age, and he cofounded a school that 1000 years later is still regarded as one of the best in the WW. Likewise, Voldemort, his heir, also accomplished great things for the cause of evil. If Harry has similar abilities but chooses to use them for good, and he has the support of other powerful good wizards, what great things could he accomplish? Just some post-holiday ramblings. Sherry ===== "The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above-average drivers." -Dave Barry, "Things That It Took Me 50 Years to Learn" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Jan 7 21:33:11 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw ) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 21:33:11 -0000 Subject: A theory about Harry (kind of long, sorry!) In-Reply-To: <20030107183346.38089.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49358 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tyler Hewitt wrote: > What if Harry was concieved specifically to fight > Voldemort?> and > Voldemort was able to manifest in GoF through a spell > which needed a sacrifice from a willing servant, ashes > of his father, and blood of his enemy. Coulden't a > similar spell (a white magic one) have been cast to > create a being (Harry) that would grow up to defeat > Voldemort?> and then >Dumbledore could have been the one who cast the spell, or gathered ingredients, or otherwise helped Lily and James `pollinate' their > special creation.> Hi, Tyler! While the gleam in Dumbledore's eye has been discussed enough that many of us tear our hair out every time it comes up, your theory is one that I do not remember hearing before. It is an interesting theory, but I can't agree with it for two reasons: one is that I'd hate to think that all of the nice things we've heard about James and Lily as parents aren't so nice after all; that they decided to have Harry not as a child, but almost as an experiment. That Dumbledore might have been involved in such a plan makes it all the more... sinister. The other reason is that it was Lily's love that protected baby Harry from Voldemort to begin with. How much real love would be there if Lily and James had a baby for the sole reason of defeating an evil wizard and not because they loved each other and wanted to start a family? Who knows, though? Maybe James and Lily Potter are not the people we thought they were anyway. JKR has been known to pull the rug out from under us before. I'd be disappointed if she didn't continue to do so (I just don't want this theory to be a rug-pulling event). --jenny from ravenclaw ***************************** From pepsiboy71 at mac.com Tue Jan 7 21:35:11 2003 From: pepsiboy71 at mac.com (Pepsiboy) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 16:35:11 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] harry's tears and/or repressed emotions... In-Reply-To: <20030107181638.49618.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49359 > My reply: > I agree with you there, but think (in Harry's case) it > may have to do with JKP accurately portraying teenage > boys. The couple of times in the books Harry has had > teary eyes, he wipes them quickly so that no one will > see. >From a psychological perspective, isn't that bad for a budding teenager? To hold it in? Especially with all that Harry has gone through: Dursley's, Voldemort, Cedric, seeing his parents. How much is enough? I'm pretty surprised he hasn't broken down (completely) at least once, to show how human he is.... From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jan 7 22:14:05 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 22:14:05 -0000 Subject: Did Peter really kill those Muggles? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49360 In PoA 19 Sirius says, "Then before I could curse him, [Peter] blew apart the street with the wand behind his back, killed everyone within twenty feet of himself -- and sped down into the sewer with the other rats." Unless Sirius has X-ray vision, he couldn't have *seen* the wand behind Peter's back, so this must be conjecture. Given that Peter is supposedly such a weak wizard, could he have had a co-conspirator who blew the street apart instead? Pippin From hodgins at ssi.net Tue Jan 7 22:21:53 2003 From: hodgins at ssi.net (hedge2staxy ) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 22:21:53 -0000 Subject: Lupin's Shiver When Confroted by Hermione's Accusations in PoA Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49361 This shiver that Lupin gives when responding to Hermione's accusations in the Shrieking Shack has been on my mind. What might it mean? "I have not been helping Sirius get into the castle and I certainly don't want Harry dead..." An odd shiver passed over his face. But I won't deny that I am a werewolf."(quoting Lupin on p.345 of the American Hardcover version) It does seem to support a number of theories out there, including: a) Lupin traded bodies with James before he was killed and now James (in Lupin's body), who would want to protect Harry above all other things, shivers at even the thought that he would ever harm his beloved son. b) Is Lupin being less than honest? Does the shiver signify that under some, yet unknown circumstances, he would consider harming Harry? Perhaps, the ultimate destruction of Voldemort may require the death of Harry (forgive the Savior concept) and Lupin foresees this possible sacrifice. c) Maybe the shiver only relates to his distaste at having to reveal his condition of werewolf to Harry and Ron. I'm fishing around here. Have others been struck by this line? -Hedgehog2000 From dicentra at xmission.com Tue Jan 7 22:39:44 2003 From: dicentra at xmission.com (dicentra63 ) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 22:39:44 -0000 Subject: Did Peter really kill those Muggles? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49362 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999 " wrote: > In PoA 19 Sirius says, "Then before I could curse him, [Peter] > blew apart the street with the wand behind his back, killed > everyone within twenty feet of himself -- and sped down into the > sewer with the other rats." > > Unless Sirius has X-ray vision, he couldn't have *seen* the wand > behind Peter's back, so this must be conjecture. Given that Peter > is supposedly such a weak wizard, could he have had a > co-conspirator who blew the street apart instead? > Why yes. It was none other than Cornelius "I was one of the first on the scene" Fudge. FIE, I say. FIE! --Dicentra From Ali at zymurgy.org Tue Jan 7 22:51:34 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali ) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 22:51:34 -0000 Subject: WW justice was re I don't expect a complete bloodbath and a Question In-Reply-To: <20030106235802.46074.qmail@web40506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49363 Snuffles wrote: >>Sirius points out that he didn't even have a trial before he was sent to Azkaban. I hardly think they would have wasted time with the Veritaserum. Basically the MoM wanted someone in Azkaban for the crimes. Sirius looked pretty darn guilty on that street. ( Although there is a mistake in the book - Sirius says he had no trial. Dumbledore says he testified at Sirius's trial to the effect that Sirius was the Potters' secret keeper--- this has been brought up a few times here...) Maria followed the argument through with: I have always taken Sirius' words about his not getting a trial literally, but maybe we shouldn't do so. It could have been the kind of trial Harry saw in the Pensieve, with Crouch both acting as prosecutor and judge and yelling all the time. Besides, people at that time were so scared that it's ridiculous even to think of the jury being objective. I say: I do believe that Sirius did not have a trial, and that his word can be taken literally. In PoA, Dumbledore tells Harry and Hermione: "I myself gave evidence to the Minstry that Sirius had been the Potters' Secret-Keeper". P.287 UK Hardback edition That phrasing is not conclusive evidence that Dumbledore testified in a trial, as he could have been giving evidence that was then never acted upon. How much evidence is actually gathered for the average murder trial which is then never produced in court, and how often do cases of miscarriages of justice reside upon evidence "never produced at the time of trial?" Another piece of evidence, Sirius' wand appears not to have been tested, or it would have shown that his wand did not kill all those innocent Muggles. I do agree that if Sirius had been tried, he might not have received a fair trial as it would have been very difficult to find a jury not contaminated by the media influence and general hysteria brought about by his case. However, IMHO that remains a moot point. Wizarding World Constitution: Maria went on to say: >>Besides, I don't see this use of truth potions as morally acceptable. We don't know anything about the WW Constitution, but I assume it contains all the basic civil rights, which IMHO should prohibit the use of truth potions in trials. << I don't know that it would be safe to assume that the WW has a constitution or whether it has what we think of as basic civil rights. Muggle Britain does not have a written Constitution and it is therefore perfectly possible for me to believe that the WW equivalent would not either. Sirius tells us that he was not the only person flung into Azkaban without a trial. This suggests the suspension of Habeas Corpus on at least a temporary basis. This is perhaps not dissimilar to the use of internment during wartime, but it is the suspension of a basic human right. In terms of other human rights, I think that there is at least the possibility that opponents were tortured by aurors as Sirius says that Crouch gave them the authority to use the Unforgivable Curses. Finally, with regard to the "trials" that we do see through the Pensieve; these seem to have far more in common with the Grand Jury System of Medieval England than the (English/Welsh) justicial system of today. JKR shows us Bagman being let off, not seemingly because of any evidence, but rather because of whom he was. We definitely see a WW judicial system that is at best hit and miss. I am sure however that we can all think of modern day trials that appear to defy the rules of law and evidence. JKR is perhaps therefore testing our beliefs in judicial systems in general when she shows us at least one miscarriage of justice and leaves the possibility open for others. Ali From kethlenda at yahoo.com Tue Jan 7 22:53:26 2003 From: kethlenda at yahoo.com (Kelly L. ) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 22:53:26 -0000 Subject: Death Eaters Numbers In-Reply-To: <36.35dc23c3.2b4c8700@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49364 Tzvi of Brooklyn wrote: > I have mentioned before that there were only a handful or so of death eaters. > Now can someone explain to me what exactly Voldermord was doing, and if so, > how did he expect to get anything accomplished with that small group of > people. We know that there are wizards all around the world. if there are > 1,000 or so people at Hogwarts (7 years of people and wizards live about 100 > years making there at least 15,000 or so from Hogwarts alone. I don't > understand how the power over numbers can triumph. Dumbledore alone seems to > be a match for Voldermort, even Harry is a match. Put Dumbledore and Harry > and they can outmatch at least 3 of the 15 death eaters. This confused me the first time I read that scene in GoF, but when I reread it I noticed something. Voldemort doesn't speak to all the DE's. Harry notes that he passes some of the DE's and some of the vacant spaces "in silence". (I don't have a page number, sorry.) So there are a bunch of DE's there who aren't mentioned by Voldemort. It is also revealing that almost all of the DE's mentioned are those who Harry knows personally or has at least heard of by name; perhaps there are other DE's whom Voldemort speaks to, but Harry doesn't register their names because they don't ring any bells. So, to make a long ramble short, I think there were far more DE's than the small number who were actually named. Kelly L. From sgarfio at yahoo.com Tue Jan 7 23:07:25 2003 From: sgarfio at yahoo.com (Sherry Garfio ) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 23:07:25 -0000 Subject: House theories/Neville In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49365 JOdel wrote: > People who wonder why Neville isn't in Hufflepuff have > overlooked the above considerations. Neville is about as far removed > from being a "team player" as you can get. He is that rare animal, a > Gryffandor loner. The Hat had a hardtime placing him, since the loners > tend to gravitate into Ravenclaw, and Ravenclaw would have been a > really bad fit. He isn't up to the eternal politics of Slytherin. > Gryffandor was the best pick of a poor assortment. For Neville. (Who > rather reminds me of Button-Bright.)" And Jim Ferer replied: > Your characterizations of the Houses are reasonable. At one time > there was a long thread discussing how House choices correlated to > Meyers-Briggs personality types. You'd probably enjoy looking it up. For those who are interested in personality and temperament sorting, I found a cool site that equates the four Houses to the Keirsey temperaments. There is quite a bit of discussion elsewhere on the site of the four temperaments as they apply to the various roles people fill throughout their lives, such as child, spouse, parent, teacher, etc. http://keirsey.com/sortinghat.html Sherry From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jan 7 23:08:07 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 23:08:07 -0000 Subject: Lupin's Shiver When Confroted by Hermione's Accusations in PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49366 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hedge2staxy " wrote: > This shiver that Lupin gives when responding to Hermione's > accusations in the Shrieking Shack has been on my mind. >What might it mean? It might mean that Ever So Evil Lupin is under strict orders from Voldemort to keep Harry alive. See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39362 message #39362 for the Evil Lupin theory. Pippin From Malady579 at hotmail.com Tue Jan 7 23:16:46 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody ) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 23:16:46 -0000 Subject: Harry's fear (was: Emotion release) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49367 Amy (who, in my opinion, deserves her own featherboa just for this post) wrote: > Another emotion that I feel is missing is fear. The kind that Ron > quite painfully felt in CoS when he followed the spiders with Harry > Yes, Harry has been scared but too many things have been happening, > distracting him from the type of fear that builds over time. The > feeling that something bad could happen at anytime, the fact he is > going to die, the type of fear that would make even a reader change > their underwear. I hope in future books if and when Harry is > captured he is made to wait in a closed off cell listening to the > torture of his friends, knowing he is next. Now that is fear. Do you really think hearing torture will cause him to fear? The screams he hears under the dementors are pretty bad in themselves, and he *does* fear them. In fact, the whole point of the dementor part was to see what Harry fears, and he fears fear. Seems a person that fears fear only has to overcome that fear to truly do amazing things. Besides, Harry has seen his friend *die* so he has had the chance to experience "you are next" fear. After all, when he was staring down Voldemort's wand in the graveyard, we are *told* that he knew he was facing death. So it seems to me, that Harry has faced death, felt torture, and still did not fear Voldemort. He stood his ground like a true Gryffindor. You know, funny thing about chivalry and bravery. It is founded on ideals and convinced in the notion that whatever happens, I am vanquished by my choices. Silly things like pain, discomfort, and death do not matter. Seems, Harry knows this and knows if he does not stand his ground, he has lost. Then I think we come to what Harry truly fears...letting people down. Melody From kethlenda at yahoo.com Tue Jan 7 23:24:20 2003 From: kethlenda at yahoo.com (Kelly L. ) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 23:24:20 -0000 Subject: Voldie's old body (was: Voldemort and Elixir) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49368 Melody wondered: >You know Richelle, I never thought about this. Man, that surprises > me. What did happen to Voldemort's body? Given the circumstances of > a rebound AK curse, it seems that what happened to him would be > unknown. I doubt the DE's came to reclaim the body(shell) since they > fled to their own safety. Had a body been there, then would the MoM > buried it? Would they just burn it? It seems that body does not > exist anymore, since Voldemort cannot re-inhabit it. But then again, > dead bodies are not inhabitable anyway. > > Wait - it is his soul/spirit that survived, right? Or is it his life > force that survived? If his life was separated and not his soul (aka. > dementor's kiss) then he is still alive per say but bodiless. So > then, what does a bounced curse that takes the life out of you do? It > takes the life out but something happens and you don't die. In normal > AK's the left body is frozen dead, but it bounced so maybe it is > destroyed from the ricochet momentum. Seems he does not have a grave, > so it is possible. Or maybe, it was destroyed in the house toppling. Kelly L's own musings on the matter: This has been bothering me for ages. The question is, what was left behind at the Potters' wrecked house, and how did it lead to the conclusion that Voldemort was defeated but not dead? I remember at the beginning of PS/SS, the wizards were celebrating the fact that Voldemort's power "broke", and that he was "gone", but no one says that he is dead. That to me would imply that he did not leave a body behind at the scene. So what was there? It couldn't have been a body, but it had to have been enough to imply that Voldemort was no longer a force to be reckoned with--at least for the time being. What we know was at the scene: A destroyed house, probably blasted to smithereens by a curse like the one Pettigrew used to fake his death. (***See end of post for speculation about this exploding curse.) James and Lily's dead bodies. Baby Harry, with a lightning-bolt wound on his forehead but otherwise OK. And the WW concluded, from that evidence, that Voldemort was gone. Again, he couldn't have left his body behind, because otherwise they would have been celebrating the DEATH of Voldemort and not his DEFEAT. They would have thought he was deceased. My best guess is that they somehow discerned from Harry's injury that it was the mark of a failed Avada Kedavra, though how they would have known this is uncertain, since there had never been a failed Avada Kedavra before. A "Priori Incantatem" on Harry's head? Who knows? So Voldemort's body wasn't there. That leaves the question, where was it? My guess is that Voldemort was not, technically, in a human body at the time of his initial defeat. Remember Hagrid's comment about how he wasn't human enough to die. I think he was in some other, metaphysically created, sort of body. And that this body, when hit with the rebound from the AK, vaporized into what we call VaporMort. The "body" was still with him, though not in a solid form. (I have no idea how this would work, but it's the only thing that makes sense to me.) We know that VaporMort is more corporeal than most ghosts, or else he would not have been able to drink the Elixir (like he wanted to), or drink the snake-venom potion (which he did, turning into BabyMort). Yet he also has to possess people to carry out his purposes. It's a strange sort of existence, and doesn't quite add up in my head. *shrug* Any thoughts? ***OK, back to that exploding curse thing I promised to mention. We know that Avada Kedavra is not the only curse that can kill wizards. Otherwise, Peter Pettigrew's faked death would never have been believed. Sirius wasn't accused of AK'ing Peter; he was accused of blowing up the whole street to kill Peter. We also know that the Potters' house was wrecked, quite possibly by the same sort of curse. Avada Kedavra doesn't blow up the target's surroundings or wound them, a la Peter's finger. If AK was really the only way to kill wizards, as has been suggested, no one would have believed Peter dead. Is this just a Flint, a remnant of an earlier time when JKR hadn't hammered out the specifics of Avada Kedavra yet? Kelly L. From lily_solstar at hotmail.com Tue Jan 7 23:27:55 2003 From: lily_solstar at hotmail.com (lily_solstar ) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 23:27:55 -0000 Subject: Veritaserum & Sirius' trial (was Re - Veritaserum) In-Reply-To: <20030107032111.5384.qmail@web40504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49369 Maria Kirilenko wrote: >I would imagine that when the initial shock after the Potters' death >and confronting PP, Sirius would tell exactly what role he played >etc. *If* he got the chance! My guess is that they either sent him >off to Azkaban with the first available vehicle, or, like I said in >a previous post, threw him, the poor, traumatized boy (he wasn't >must older that Crouch Jr at the time, I guess), into a room with a >crazy, frothing at the mouth Crouch and scared out of their wits >jurors who were more than a bit relieved to have a chance to throw >another DE in jail, which they promptly did. Some trial! Me: Remember that in GoF, Sirius specifically says Crouch sent him to Azkaban *without a trial*. My guess is the MoM was so relieved this whole HWMNBN business was over, they were more than happy to lock Sirius up fast and get on with life. Maybe that's why Sirius laughed after the confrontation with Peter. Which brings us to another question: Wouldn't someone with Sirius' personality (he was a Gryffindor) at least *try* to defend his innocence? Maybe the MoM didn't want to listen, but surely all he would have to do was to owl up Dumbledore. Did he truly see no hope in the situation? Just a few questions to ponder... --Lily Solstar From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Tue Jan 7 23:35:44 2003 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 23:35:44 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Veritaserum & Sirius' trial (was Re - Veritaserum) References: Message-ID: <001a01c2b6a5$805c0ad0$528901d5@homeevisham> No: HPFGUIDX 49370 Lily Solstar wrote: > Which brings us to another question: Wouldn't someone with Sirius' > personality (he was a Gryffindor) at least *try* to defend his > innocence? Maybe the MoM didn't want to listen, but surely all he > would have to do was to owl up Dumbledore. Did he truly see no hope > in the situation? Maybe he thought he deserves to go to Azkaban over his Secret keeper decision (he still thought he has as good as killed Potters all those years later). But another question is would an owl to Dumbledore helped? My guess it would not, as Sirius has no prove that Peter is alive. In PoA Dumbledore believes Sirius is guilty until 4 people that he trusts are able to confirm - they saw Peter alive. Irene From Malady579 at hotmail.com Tue Jan 7 23:41:44 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody ) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 23:41:44 -0000 Subject: Did Peter really kill those Muggles? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49371 Pippin wondered: > > Unless Sirius has X-ray vision, he couldn't have *seen* the wand > > behind Peter's back, so this must be conjecture. Given that Peter > > is supposedly such a weak wizard, could he have had a > > co-conspirator who blew the street apart instead? Dicentra jumped in gleefully: > Why yes. It was none other than Cornelius "I was one of the first > on the scene" Fudge. FIE, I say. FIE! It is possible ladies, but Black had time there after the blast and after Peter transfigured and "disappeared" to realize what happened and while he may not of *seen* the wand, he did probably hear the spell noise or even the incantation Peter used. But the reason I don't think Fudge helped is because the destruction spread would of radiated from behind Peter's back and therefore also in front of Black. That way, it appeared Black did it. Now, unless Fudge was behind Black and Black did not hear him, it seems the only way a "second gunman" Fudge could of gotten that projection without hitting Peter or Black would require him to be close enough to be seen by Black. But then again, this is all blown out of the water if destruction like that can be protected from afar and at the angles required. It would take a very good marksman though. Has Fudge show any signs of skill so far? Melody From kethlenda at yahoo.com Tue Jan 7 23:48:19 2003 From: kethlenda at yahoo.com (Kelly L.) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 15:48:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: FILK: Don't Make Me Come to Hogwarts Message-ID: <20030107234819.13481.qmail@web40004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49372 "Don't Make Me Come to Hogwarts" (A Sirius Black/Peter Pettigrew FILK, by Kelly L. Tune: "Don't Make Me Come to Vegas" by Tori Amos. I couldn't find a sound file, but the lyrics are here: http://www.lyricscafe.com/a/amos_tori/154.htm) ************************************************* SIRIUS BLACK: Don't make me come to Hogwarts, Don't make me pull you Out of Ron's bed. I am vigilant That it will not be you Who walks away On the night that you and I meet again. Don't make me come to Hogwarts, This time I will be certain You're dead. You were lucky once, But I know it can be done And it will be done, And I think that I am up to it. By the Whomping Willow tree, Oh you won't believe All the trouble you're in, With me and Remus Lupin. Remember your old friends, and wondering as we were Marauding, what kind of wizard you'd be. You'll get away from me--over my dead body. He slipped through my hands, again and again... He slipped through my hands, again and again... Oh, James and Lily Potter, And their baby Harry, were innocent. You called yourself their friend, But you were spying You were lying, Revealing everything that slipped into your hands. And the dementors and the madness, And the way you said "You can have all this"-- Blamed it all on me... You see, Voldemort was your master And you sold us all down the river at his wish. And the Whomping Willow tree, It's telling me it's not over yet, Just by the way it bends. If I come padding through, I'll know that it's you By your lost fingertip. Bet on the dementor's kiss. You will slip through my net--over my dead body. He slipped through my hands, again and again... He slipped through my hands, again and again... Don't make me come to Hogwarts. Don't make me come to Hogwarts. Don't make me come to Hogwarts. (Kelly L., 2003) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From metal_tiara at hotmail.com Tue Jan 7 23:54:26 2003 From: metal_tiara at hotmail.com (sophineclaire ) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 23:54:26 -0000 Subject: Lupin's Shiver When Confroted by Hermione's Accusations in PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49373 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hedge2staxy " wrote: > This shiver that Lupin gives when responding to Hermione's > accusations in the Shrieking Shack has been on my mind. What might > it mean? > "I have not been helping Sirius get into the castle and I certainly > don't want Harry dead..." An odd shiver passed over his face. But I > won't deny that I am a werewolf."(quoting Lupin on p.345 of the > American Hardcover version) > > It does seem to support a number of theories out there, including: > > a) Lupin traded bodies with James before he was killed and now James > (in Lupin's body), who would want to protect Harry above all other > things, shivers at even the thought that he would ever harm his > beloved son. This theory never left a good taste in my mouth. James is present in Harry's life in different ways already and to suggest that he might have switch bodies with Lupin does a disservice to both men. It denies James his sacrifice for his son and it strikes me as mocking Lupin's struggle with Lycanthropy. Lupin knows how terrible Lycanthropy can be and wouldn't dare ask anyone to take his place, maybe instead looking for other ways to help in the fight against Voldemort. His Lycanthropy is what makes Lupin one of the more respected characters in the series. He was dealt a very bad hand and could've chose to go on with what was stereotypically expected of Werewolves in human form or try to rise above the rhetoric. He rose above the predjudices of others, forgiving those who did him wrong and becoming one of the overall one of the most (seemingly) morally strong characters in the series. James, on the otherhand, would probably be more than willing to take Lupin's body though he'd probably want to be in Werewolf form when Voldemort arrived. Either way, I think James who rather BE there in Godric's Hollow with Lily and Harry to at least convince himself that he did everything possible. > > b) Is Lupin being less than honest? Does the shiver signify that > under some, yet unknown circumstances, he would consider harming > Harry? Perhaps, the ultimate destruction of Voldemort may require > the death of Harry (forgive the Savior concept) and Lupin foresees > this possible sacrifice. > > c) Maybe the shiver only relates to his distaste at having to reveal > his condition of werewolf to Harry and Ron. > Maybe it's a distaste over revealing his condition. Maybe it's disgust over how Harry might have looked had Lupin killed him werewolf style. Had a lot of time to think over that scenerio over the years. ---SophineClaire From kethlenda at yahoo.com Tue Jan 7 23:59:23 2003 From: kethlenda at yahoo.com (Kelly L. ) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 23:59:23 -0000 Subject: Lupin's Shiver When Confroted by Hermione's Accusations in PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49374 In response to speculation about Lupin's shudder in the Shrieking Shack, SophineClaire wrote: Maybe it's a distaste over revealing his condition. Maybe it's > disgust over how Harry might have looked had Lupin killed him > werewolf style. Had a lot of time to think over that scenerio over > the years. > > > ---SophineClaire Personally, I always just took it as a "God forbid" about the possible death of Harry. Lupin was showing horror at the idea of Harry dying, and especially of himself having any part in it. Kelly L. From anakinbester at hotmail.com Wed Jan 8 00:13:42 2003 From: anakinbester at hotmail.com (anakinbester ) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 00:13:42 -0000 Subject: Did Peter really kill those Muggles? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49375 > Pippin wondered: > > > Unless Sirius has X-ray vision, he couldn't have *seen* the wand > > > behind Peter's back, so this must be conjecture. Given that Peter > > > is supposedly such a weak wizard, could he have had a > > > co-conspirator who blew the street apart instead? > > Dicentra jumped in gleefully: > > Why yes. It was none other than Cornelius "I was one of the first > > on the scene" Fudge. FIE, I say. FIE! Melody added: > It is possible ladies, but Black had time there after the blast and > after Peter transfigured and "disappeared" to realize what happened > and while he may not of *seen* the wand, he did probably hear the > spell noise or even the incantation Peter used. I agree with that point. Also, I don't see Black's guess as that much of a stretch. If he got there, assumed he and Peter were the only wizards about, and a spell blew up the street, which he didn't cast, then Peter must have cast it. If Peter had one hand behind his back, then I think it's a normal assumption that Peter had hidden his wand behind his back. I'm sure Sirius then promptly kicked himself for being too angry to wonder why Peter would keep one hand continually behind his back. (Among other things, what was that Gandalf says, something like "often does anger hurt itself" Poor Sirius) >But the reason I > don't think Fudge helped is because the destruction spread would of > radiated from behind Peter's back and therefore also in front of > Black. That way, it appeared Black did it. Again, true. I see it brought up, sometimes, how is it Sirius was unharmed, yet the 12 muggles died. I always just assumed Sirius was standing practically on top of Peter. Maybe even grabbing hold of the Peter. That way, as Melody says, he'd be within the safety zone of the blast, and also, it would look as though it came from. > Now, unless Fudge was behind Black and Black did not hear him, it > seems the only way a "second gunman" Fudge could of gotten that > projection without hitting Peter or Black would require him to be > close enough to be seen by Black. That, and I'm thinking Fudge, stupid git that he seems to be, his utterly lacking a motive. If he's a Death Eater, well why frame Sirius? They all wanted Peter dead. If he's not, why help Peter? If anything went wrong, it would be political suicide. Course *L* Perhaps Peter had something on Fudge and could coerce Fudge into helping him. That all seems to far planned out. Peter, if he planned the framing at all, would have had to plan it quickly. I don't think he had planned anything of the sort before Voldemort died, because presumably, Voldemort would protect him. Then again, framing Sirius for it could have been a second phase of the same "kill the Potters" plan, and Peter went ahead with it even after Voldemort died as a matter of self preservation. *shrugs* I don't know. Having Fudge involved seems truly far-fetched to me. As much as I like Peter, (stop looking at me oddly!) I think he, and he alone, is responsible for those people's deaths. Now, of course, I don't think he did it intentionally. I recall in PoA, Harry cast a cheering charm on Ron, but because of nerves, the charm was too strong and Ron had wait a while. So it seems nerves can increase the strength of spell. Well if I had a murderous Sirius in my face, I'd be nervous ^^;; I figured Peter meant to cause a distraction so he could slip away, but ended up blowing out the whole street. > > Has Fudge show any signs of skill > so far? You know, offhand, I don't even recall him using magic to any degree ^^;; I suspect he's good. The WW seems to put a lot of emphasis on one's magical ability. So if he's Minister of Magic, I'd assume he's good. *L* He certainly fits Hermione's description of a powerful wizard. Not an ounce of logic in him =P -Ani Yes I think I do only respond to things about Peter, why? ^^;; From the.gremlin at verizon.net Wed Jan 8 00:40:04 2003 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 18:40:04 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The one who has left me forever... Message-ID: <20030108004004.EHNH16549.out006.verizon.net@[127.0.0.1]> No: HPFGUIDX 49377 Amy said: "He says to Hermione "...it was only death eaters who ever knew how to conjure it. I'd be very surprised if the person who did it hadn't been a Death Eater once, even if they're not now..." It is made quite clear all through the four books that the Weasly's in particular do not believe many of the redemption, devil-made-me-do-it stories told by ex-death eaters trying to save their own skin, especially the Malfoys. If this is true why would Arthur even consider that at least one of them was not a death eater now?" What I was thinking was, at that point in time, no one (except really smart people like DD and Harry and Sirius) knew that there was a very real possibility of V-Mort coming back. A DE was a servant of V-Mort, as well as a supporter. V-Mort has vaporized. Therefore, there wouldn't be any DEs to serve or support V-Mort because there is no V-Mort to serve or support. We would call someone like Malfoy or Crabbe and Goyle 'former DEs'. So, they are not currently DEs, even though they still hold the same ideals and such, but they were once the servant of V-Mort, and they supported him. -Gargoyle, who is laughing at her snoring cat...I didn't know cats snored. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Wed Jan 8 00:45:22 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 16:45:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Occam's Razor, Lupin/James and the Shiver Message-ID: <20030108004522.23910.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49378 I would tend to agree with SophineClaire that Lupin was shivering because of his reluctance to "come out" as a werewolf to the Trio, and Harry in particular. He probably hasn't done it very often in his life (although the entire school will know soon, thanks to Snape) and if and when he told Harry, he would probably have liked it to be under more auspicious circumstances. I'm truly mystified about why there is a question of James and Lupin trading bodies. This rather goes against Occam's Razor (it is really NOT an obvious explanation for any mystery). Why should we not believe that James died the same night Lily did? It's a theory that really comes out of the blue for me, and introduces some needlessly complicated machinations on JKR's part. Now, one might say the same thing about the Moody/Crouch thing and the Polyjuice Potion. However, I believe that the first time I was reading GoF, I should have paid far more attention to Moody's dark detectors. We learn that his devices for detecting dark wizards went off at his house, producing a ruckus, and that was why Arthur Weasley had to go there to smooth things over, before the Muggle police showed up. Upon first reading, it seems that these devices went off for no reason. After the fact, we know that there was an excellent reason: Barty Crouch, Jr. had forced his way into the house and imprisoned the real Moody in his magical trunk and took some of his hair to put in Polyjuice Potion, so that when Arthur arrived, it was actually Crouch to whom he was speaking, not Moody. The impression we get from the orignal account is is that the devices were faulty, when they were, in fact, functioning perfectly. Another clue to the efficacy of dark detectors comes earlier, in PoA, when Ron gives Harry a Sneak-O-Scope, which he says Percy declared to be defective, as it kept going off when they were having dinner. (This was on the Egyptian trip.) However, Ron informs Harry that the twins were putting something (beetles?) in his food, so the device was NOT defective--Percy was simply unaware of the actions of the twins. As we are told that a Sneak-O-Scope goes off when there is someone about who cannot be trusted (the twins, in the case above) and since Moody's Sneak-O-Scope (it probably really is Moody's, not Crouch's) is going off when Harry is in his office, we should have suspected that there was something up with Moody. It was the logical conclusion; we certainly know that Harry wasn't the untrustworthy one present. That Sneak-O-Scope SHOULD have been a red flag. In the future, I certainly plan to pay very close attention to any dark detectors that show up in the books. There have, however, been no reasons in canon to suspect that Lupin is anyone other than Lupin and that James isn't dead, especially as his shadow emerged from Voldemort's wand. It also wouldn't fit with what we know of James Potter's character; -for him to leave his son growing up with the Dursleys when he could have revealed that he is alive and taken care of him himself would be very, very out of character, even if he was stuck in a werewolf's body. We have no reason to believe, from the books, that James is the sort of father who would do such a thing. Occam's Razor does, however, help Hermione determine that Lupin is a werewolf because of the timing of his illnesses and the form his boggart took. It also helps her determine that Rita Skeeter is an Animagus--as only a bug on the wall could have heard some of the things she included in her stories. (It helps, in the HP world, that a bug on a wall CAN actually be a person, and that werewolves are known to be real, not mythical. ) All of these things follow logically within the framwork that JKR has created; Lupin and James being the same person does not, I'm afraid. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From the.gremlin at verizon.net Wed Jan 8 00:48:00 2003 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 18:48:00 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Greasy Hair... wizard tinfoil? Message-ID: <20030108004800.EIUU16549.out006.verizon.net@[127.0.0.1]> No: HPFGUIDX 49379 Mark D. wrote: "Almost all references refer to his hair as greasy and I have to wonder why a wizard as self-centered as Snape comes off as would allow his hair to be greasy." First of all, Snape does not appear to me to be self-centered. I still haven't worked out my ideas about Snape, but I have two theories on the greasy hair thing. 1)I know someone's mentioned this, and I want to go with it. He spends all day with his head in a cauldron. The wizarding equivalent to working in a fast food resturaunt at the grill. His face has also been mentioned as greasy, in GoF, when Harry drops his clue down the stairs, and everyone has a pajama party. 2) He's male, and therefore does not see any reason to bathe every day. There are no available females his age (as far as we know, maybe he doesn't like the available females his age) employed at Hogwarts, so there's no need for him to look his best. And here's another one: some people just have naturally greasy hair and/or faces. Maybe he doesn't use the shampoo for oily hair. Maybe he shampoos too often. Shampooing too often will make your hair follicles produce more oil. -Acire, who likes Snape anyway, and who may have accidently signed a post 'Gargoyle'. 'Gargoyle' is my name elsewhere. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From heidit at netbox.com Wed Jan 8 01:12:19 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 21:12:19 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Did Peter really kill those Muggles? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49380 Pippin wrote: > Unless Sirius has X-ray vision, he couldn't have *seen* the wand > behind Peter's back, so this must be conjecture. Given that Peter > is supposedly such a weak wizard, could he have had a > co-conspirator who blew the street apart instead? > Well, in a clinical sense it could be conjecture for sirius to say that but if he saw peter put the wand behind his back, or was at an angle such that he could still see peter's arm, wand in hand, or if he could even see the tip or handle of the wand behind peter, it wouldn't be conjecture. It would be something he really did see Heidi Tandy Follow me to FictionAlley - Harry Potter fanfics of all shapes, sizes and ships - 7 sickles an ounce http://www.FictionAlley.org From kewiromeo at aol.com Wed Jan 8 00:16:05 2003 From: kewiromeo at aol.com (kewiromeo at aol.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 19:16:05 EST Subject: Voldie's old body (Avada Kedavra) Message-ID: <144.72533ea.2b4cc7c5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49381 Kelly L. wrote: "***OK, back to that exploding curse thing I promised to mention.? We know that Avada Kedavra is not the only curse that can kill wizards.? Otherwise, Peter Pettigrew's faked death would never have been believed.? Sirius wasn't accused of AK'ing Peter; he was accused of blowing up the whole street to kill Peter.? We also know that the Potters' house was wrecked, quite possibly by the same sort of curse. Avada Kedavra doesn't blow up the target's surroundings or? wound them, a la Peter's finger.? If AK was really the only way to kill wizards, as has been suggested, no one would have believed Peter dead.? Is this just a Flint, a remnant of an earlier time when JKR hadn't hammered out the specifics of Avada Kedavra yet?" Me: The point is easily overlooked, but Harry's most distinct memory of his parents in the begning was the green light. Unless your exploding curpse produced a gree light, then Harry wouldnt have remembered it. Which brings me to something I was thinking about last night. Why would Godric's Hollow be destroyed. A)Avada Kedavra simply kills them, kinda light a hydrogen bomb, but doesn't destroy anything in the process. B)If he had blown up the house it would have come out of the wand during Prioro Incantem. Perhaps, it wasn't destroyed. The house might still be intact. Maybe he will inherit the house, he should have the inherited the house. If Sirius gets cleared he can go live with him there. Or perhaps, in their Wizard Will, the Potters left Sirius Godrics Hollow, which is the house he speaks of to Harry that they can go and live at. Tzvi of Brooklyn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From andie at knownet.net Wed Jan 8 00:24:48 2003 From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe ) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 00:24:48 -0000 Subject: harry's tears (again) In-Reply-To: <20030107181638.49618.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49382 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tyler Hewitt wrote: > > From GoF, > "Now the burning feeling was in his throat, too. He > wished Ron would look away. .... he was screwing up > his face against the howl of misery fighting to get > out of him." Now me: Hmmm... I interpreted that as Harry actually crying a bit and that's why he wanted Ron to look away. That was just my interpretation... I know that Hermione did interrupt, but I thought maybe Harry did get a bit of a release before that interruption... or maybe it was just me hoping that poor kid could get it out!!! :) grindieloe From snorth at ucla.edu Wed Jan 8 01:15:37 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 17:15:37 -0800 Subject: House theories/Neville References: Message-ID: <002c01c2b6b3$760f9890$0100a8c0@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 49383 Sherry Wrote: >For those who are interested in personality and temperament sorting, I >found a cool site that equates the four Houses to the Keirsey >temperaments. There is quite a bit of discussion elsewhere on the >site of the four temperaments as they apply to the various roles >people fill throughout their lives, such as child, spouse, parent, >teacher, etc. >http://keirsey.com/sortinghat.html Me: Hi, I was hoping someone would bring this up, I had been reading the past posts about Houses and myers-briggs typology, but wasn't ambitious enough to make an original post on it. Anyway. I've seen the above site before; superficially, it makes sense superficially, but I'd point out that from what we've seen from various characters in Gryffindor, houses are not really related to a specific typology or keirsey temperment (I'll mention in brief that the four Keirsey Temperments are Rationals-NT- iNtuitive Thinking [roughly 6% of the population], Idealists-NF-iNtuitive Feeling [about 14% of the population], Artisans-SP-Sensing Perceiving [40% of the population], and Guardians-SJ-Sensing Judging [40% of the population]). I've been somewhat interested in jung/myers-briggs typology for a while now (since learning that Einstein was also an INTP- I don't claim to be anywhere near him in intelligence, but I've also considered him something of a historical role model, for a long time), and I'd like to think that I have a grasp of jung typology (I don't claim to have any qualifications outside of a fairly deep interest, I'm actually a math major), and it would seem to me that there is a definite variance among the personality types within the Gryffindor house. Looking at characters who are in, or have been in Gryffindor: Hermione: DEFINITELY an INTJ.. Read a specific summary of INTJ's, I think you'll find that it hits the mark dead on. (There's even a rationalization for SPEW) McGonagall: fairly certain she's another INTJ, (there is the slight possiblity she's an ISTJ, but I wouldn't bet on it. Also, I don't know for sure that she was in Gryffindor, I don't think there's any specific proof of this, so I'm making an educated guess). Dumbledore: Guessing INTJ- a lot in part to his similarities to Gandalf the Grey (who is actually cited as a classic INTJ, by people much more qualified than myself), though there are other reasons. Harry: I think Harry is an INTP... I'm not really certain (despite the book being written from his perspective), but I think he's a Rational, almost certainly Introverted, and probably Percieving. Also, I find that I definitely relate to Harry, and can draw some parallels between him and myself, spefically about how he views other people and the world. (I am DEFINITELY an INTP, so I know that much) Parvati Patil & Lavender Brown: Probably Idealists (NFs), based on their interest in Divination (I've been told that virtually anyone who believes in Psychics are probably Idealists). This is really only a vague guess on my part. Ron: I'm actually not sure; my best guess would be ESTP. Fred/George: ESFP Arthur Weasley: pretty sure Mr. Weasley is an ENTP. Oliver Wood: probably an ESTP. Neville: probably an SJ, and almost certainly introverted. Whether he's thinking of Feeling, I have no idea. (I'd like to note that I hold with the theory that something has messed up Neville's memory and general personality. I believe that when he was sorted into Gryffindor, it was based on his potential, and what he COULD be, not what he is like right now. Okay, based on this wide divergence of personalities within the Gryffindor house, I would argue that keirsey temperment has little to do with sorting (though maybe it's important for other houses, specifically Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw. I believe that the defining characteristic of Gryffindors, courage, has little to do with personality type; you can be any one of the 16 personality types and still be brave. Same with Slytherin- you can be any personality type and still be evil.). Anyway, if you've read this far, thanks for sticking with me, and sorry to bore you. If anyone has more expertise in this area than me, of which I'm certain there are many who fit this criteria, feel free to correct me. I make no claims on being an expert on this subject. If anyone wants to look over the 16 personality types and take a stab at this, http://www.typelogic.com/ is an excellent source of information. -Scott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From emilygoo at angelfire.com Wed Jan 8 00:49:16 2003 From: emilygoo at angelfire.com (dizzygurl1234 ) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 00:49:16 -0000 Subject: What are Death Eaters? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49384 Hi! I'm sort of a latecomer to the whole HP world - after a long (and confusing, for my part) discussion about HP which lead to the discovery that I had no clue about anything, my friend forced me to read the entire series and watch the first movie...although it took some convincing since I'm not really into fantasy stuff. It's been a like two weeks since I read the last book - this in addition to the fact that I never pick up on details (no matter how obvious), so hopefully someone will gently nudge me in the right direction. How does the whole Death Eater thing work (especially with Snape and Lucius) and how come Lucius isn't in trouble or anything for still being a DE? You can also feel free to tell me about anything relating to HP - maybe I'll know what my friend is talking about next time! Thanks! From duranta at pop.belmont.edu Wed Jan 8 01:33:59 2003 From: duranta at pop.belmont.edu (durant_a2002 ) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 01:33:59 -0000 Subject: Did Peter really kill those Muggles? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49385 > Knowing that Pettigrew was weak and might implicate more than just > himself, Fudge decides to destroy him and the whole street - framing > Black and ridding himself of Peter in the same blast. Peter escaped, > transforming at the moment of the blast and only losing a finger. > > > Pickle Jimmy I have heard quite a few people referring to Peter as being a weak wizard. I think we need to remember, however, that while he is certainly cowardly and weak-willed, he did manage to learn the animagus transformation shortly after James and Sirius, and he is also strong enough to kill Cedric with avada kedavra, and we know that Crouch!Moody said it takes alot for the spell to work. So he must have some magical power. Andrew From rvotaw at i-55.com Wed Jan 8 01:42:50 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 19:42:50 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Death Eater Numbers/ Harry's Tears References: <20030107052620.71237.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <013c01c2b6b7$46009970$9ea1cdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 49386 Kelly L. writes: >So, to make a long >ramble short, I think there were far more DE's than the small >number who were actually named. I also think that there are others. Not just those present and not named, but almost as if those who came to the graveyard were the elite. The captains of the guard. That each of these has a group under them. It would've been rather awkward to bring in hundreds (not just for being there, but for the story to flow!). Perhaps there not all called Death Eaters even. Maybe "Death Eater" is the worst of them. The "Top Guns." Tyler writes: > I forgot about the picture album tears. I think you're > right there. There are no tears there. He's speechless, but no tears. > But, Harry doesn't cry at the end of GoF. As I > remember it (again, I don't have the books in front of > me, I read borrowed copies), Mrs. Weasley hugged him, > and Harry felt it all rising to the surface. Hermione, > seeing his face all scowled up and about to let loose > with tears, gives him the sleeping potion and he falls > asleep. It was this lack of emotional release that I > found unsettling, and I think this particular episode > of Harry NOT crying is what may be driving the > speculation that his tears will play an important role > later on. Actually Mrs. Weasley has Harry's potion, can't take it any more, puts it down, hugs Harry, everything comes rushing in, and so on. Then as you think it's about to break, Hermione slams the jar down on the Rita Skeeter, and Harry and Mrs. Weasley break apart. Mrs. Weasley wipes her eyes, gives Harry his potion, he goes to sleep. So yes, he doesn't cry here either. That leaves only twice that there are at least enough tears to wipe his eyes. SS/PS in the hospital wing with Dumbledore and during dementor lessons with Lupin in PoA. Harry's reaction in GoF with everything that had happened all tumbling around him, from Cedric's dead body to his mother's face, father's voice, etc. is the kind of thing where so many horrible things have happened you just want to scream. But he doesn't do that either. Tyler again: > Wishing Ron would look away is key here. Teenage boys > struggle a lot with appearing tough and not showing > emotion, especially in front of friends (it's pretty > hellish, too, I know from personal experience!). As an > adult I understand the value of an emotional release > like crying. Teenage boys aren't so lucky, and if they > have to cry will try to do so in seclusion. Of course, most teenage boys haven't had all of the things happen to them that Harry has. I think if it had been just he and Mrs. Weasley there in the hospital wing he'd have gladly cried until there weren't any tears left. Which leads me to believe there will be a time when he can do just that. Pepsiboy writes: >From a psychological perspective, isn't that bad for a budding teenager? To >hold it in? Especially with all that Harry has gone through: Dursley's, >Voldemort, Cedric, seeing his parents. How much is enough? I'm pretty >surprised he hasn't broken down (completely) at least once, to show how >human he is.... Yes, it is bad. He was on edge before GoF, from hearing his mother's screams and his father's voice. Now with the events in the graveyard in GoF he is teetering over the edge, so to speak. One more incident and he probably will break down. But what will that incident be? grindieloe writes: > Hmmm... I interpreted that as Harry actually crying a bit and that's > why he wanted Ron to look away. That was just my interpretation... I > know that Hermione did interrupt, but I thought maybe Harry did get a > bit of a release before that interruption... or maybe it was just me > hoping that poor kid could get it out!!! :) I don't think so. There's a direct reference to Mrs. Weasley wiping away her tears, but nothing about Harry. Just that he and Mrs. Weasley break apart, he drinks his potion, goes to sleep. Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rvotaw at i-55.com Wed Jan 8 01:59:43 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 19:59:43 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A theory about Harry/ Lupin's shudder/ Potter house (was Voldie's old body) References: <20030107183346.38089.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <015b01c2b6b9$a3d3d8d0$9ea1cdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 49387 Tyler writes: > What if Harry was concieved specifically to fight Voldemort? Voldemort would have been in full force at > the time of Harry's conception; could his parents have purposefully done something at that time to ensure > that their child would grow up to defeat evil? If Voldemort knew this, it would give him reason to go > after Harry, which seems to have been his intent on that night. Hmm, interesting. I like some parts and don't like some parts. If Harry was conceived specifically to fight Voldemort, does it diminish his parents love for him as a person? Or if he found this out would he think they just loved him because he was the key to survival? I do think it correlates to Harry being "the one" who will defeat (permanently next time!) Voldemort. This relates somewhat: Kelly L. writes of Lupin's shudder: > Personally, I always just took it as a "God forbid" about the > possible death of Harry. Lupin was showing horror at the idea > of Harry dying, and especially of himself having any part in > it. If Harry were indeed conceived to defeat Voldemort, that would fit. As a horror of horrors if "the one" who can and will defeat Voldemort were to die. Tzvi of Brooklyn writes: > The point is easily overlooked, but Harry's most distinct > memory of his parents in the begning was the green light. > Unless your exploding curpse produced a gree light, then Harry > wouldnt have remembered it. I believe the point was that there could've been a curse *after* the AK curses killed the Potters. That AK shouldn't have literally brought the house down. > Perhaps, it wasn't destroyed. The house might still be intact. > Maybe he will inherit the house, he should have the inherited Hagrid tells Dumbledore at Privet Drive, SS/PS "house was almost destroyed." All right, he does say "almost." But how can a house be "almost" destroyed? Is it standing or isn't it? So later on, in PoA, Sirius says ". . . when I saw their house, destroyed, and their bodies . . ." So it's safe to say the house was destroyed. > the house. If Sirius gets cleared he can go live with him > there. Or perhaps, in their Wizard Will, the Potters left > Sirius Godrics Hollow, which is the house he speaks of to Harry > that they can go and live at. Sirius never mentions having a house. He mentions he's Harry's godfather so that if anything had ever happened to his parents, and so on, he beats around the bush, says if Harry ever wanted a different home, but he'd understand if he wanted to stay with his aunt and uncle, etc. Harry asks "Have you got a house? When can I move in?" Sirius says "You want to? You mean it?" Then they don't speak about it again, Harry's just thinking about leaving the Dursleys. Then of course Lupin turns werewolf and so on. I read this as Sirius excitedly wanting his godchild to live with him, not actually thinking about where he'll put him! He may indeed have a place of his own, but getting it back, now that's another story. Richelle From the.gremlin at verizon.net Wed Jan 8 02:23:18 2003 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 20:23:18 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What are Death Eaters? Message-ID: <20030108022319.FQBF21001.pop015.verizon.net@[192.168.129.97]> No: HPFGUIDX 49388 dizzygurl1234 wrote: "after a long (and confusing, for my part) discussion about HP which lead to the discovery that I had no clue about anything, my friend forced me to read the entire series and watch the first movie...although it took some convincing since I'm not really into fantasy stuff." Hi there. Just so you know, we don't discuss the Cinema That Must Not Be Named (CTMNBN for short) on this list. You may want to search around a little at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/. "How does the whole Death Eater thing work (especially with Snape and Lucius) and how come Lucius isn't in trouble or anything for still being a DE?" Death-Eaters (or DEs) were servants and supporters of Voldemort. They were all marked by Voldemort with the Dark Mark: "Snape strode forward, past Dumbledore, pulling the up left sleeve of his robes as he went. He stuck out his forearm and showed it to Fudge, who recoiled. 'There,' said Snape harshly. 'There. The Dark Mark. It is not as clear as it was an hour or so ago, when it burned black, but you can still see it. Every Death Eater had the sign burned into him by the Dark Lord. It was a means of summoning us to him. When he touched the Mark of any Death Eater, we were to Disapparate, and Apparate, instantly, at his side.'" It has been speculated by this group that the individual DEs had areas in which they specialized in, i.e. Macnair (who is currently working for the Ministry of Magic in the Committe for Disposal of Dangerous Creatures or something like that) doing torture, Malfoy torturing Muggles, things like that. Malfoy got away with being a DE because a lot of former DEs plead the Imperius Curse. Of course, we all know that's not true. DD gave evidence for Snape, and he got off because he changed sides (for reasons unknown) and worked as a spy, "at great personal risk." For furthur info, you may want to go to the site I pasted above and go to 'Messsages,' then do a search using the word DE or Death Eater. You can also go to 'Fantastic Posts and Where to Find Them,' but I don't know what the URL is. Hopefully someone else can help you there. -Acire, who once again used the Book That Is Not Hers for the quote above. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Wed Jan 8 01:35:08 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 19:35:08 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Did Peter really kill those Muggles? References: <200301080215.h082FpSV010762@grond.furrystuff.com> Message-ID: <3E1B804C.4B0401C0@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49389 Heidi Tandy wrote: > > Pippin wrote: > > > Unless Sirius has X-ray vision, he couldn't have *seen* the wand > > behind Peter's back, so this must be conjecture. Given that Peter > > is supposedly such a weak wizard, could he have had a > > co-conspirator who blew the street apart instead? > > > > Well, in a clinical sense it could be conjecture for sirius to say > that but if he saw peter put the wand behind his back, or was at an > angle such that he could still see peter's arm, wand in hand, or if he > could even see the tip or handle of the wand behind peter, it wouldn't > be conjecture. It would be something he really did see > > Heidi Tandy > Follow me to FictionAlley - Harry Potter fanfics of all shapes, sizes > and ships - 7 sickles an ounce > http://www.FictionAlley.org > Or Sirius heard him say the spell and knew to cast it, he must have had a wand behind his back pointed at the street. Doesn't take a genius to figure it out since the street didn't blow itself apart, after all. Sirius is smart enough to put two and two together, weither he saw the wand or not. Though he could have gotten a glimpse of it when Peter waved it to cast the spell. And there's nothing to indicate you have to have your wand in front of you to cast a spell. I would guess he used a spell similar to the one Arthur used to get out of the Dursley's boarded up fireplace, except in this case, it collapsed the street into the sewers below, rather then just blow a nice escape hole. Jazmyn From snorth at ucla.edu Wed Jan 8 01:38:23 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 17:38:23 -0800 Subject: Lupin's Shiver When Confroted by Hermione's Accusations in PoA References: Message-ID: <001b01c2b6b6$a8aa6e80$0100a8c0@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 49390 Kelly L: >Personally, I always just took it as a "God forbid" about the >possible death of Harry. Lupin was showing horror at the idea of >Harry dying, and especially of himself having any part in it. Agreed. Is it just me, or are people jumping at the slighest twitch of any character in this book? I blame the "Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes" (GoF ch. 36, pg. 696 US first edition). That's almost certainly significant, but just because a character shivers, shudders, frowns, gasps, or smiles doesn't mean there's some hidden meaning in it; I think that JKR is just trying to make conversations more colorful. -Scott Remember: Ockham's razor n. A rule in science and philosophy stating that entities should not be multiplied needlessly. This rule is interpreted to mean that the simplest of two or more competing theories is preferable and that an explanation for unknown phenomena should first be attempted in terms of what is already known. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sjd914 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 8 01:52:37 2003 From: sjd914 at yahoo.com (sjd914 ) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 01:52:37 -0000 Subject: Death Eaters Numbers In-Reply-To: <36.35dc23c3.2b4c8700@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49391 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, kewiromeo at a... wrote: > I have mentioned before that there were only a handful or so of > death eaters. > Now can someone explain to me what exactly Voldermord was doing, > and if so, > how did he expect to get anything accomplished with that small > group of > people. >I don't > understand how the power over numbers can triumph. Dumbledore alone > seems to > be a match for Voldermort, even Harry is a match. Put Dumbledore > and Harry > and they can outmatch at least 3 of the 15 death eaters. > > I understand that he has an army of dementors and possibly giants, but it > doesn't do it for me. In GoF at the World Cup Ron, I think, asks Arthur what Death Eaters are. Arthur replies something along the lines, "They were Voldemorts _close_ supporters" (underline added by me) That isnt an exact quote but I am sure he says close. The DEs are only the inner circle of wizards. You know he had a number of suppoerters so the 15 or so DEs wouldn't cut it. In PS/SS Hagrid says, "Voldemort's time you didnt know who to trust. Alotta Dark Wizards were around back then" (Again forgive me if the quote is wrong since I dont have a book here) If there were only 20 dark wizards then it wouldnt qualify as "alot" I think that once his old supporters here that he has regained his power that they will support him as well as the DEs. -Sajid From jillieroth at yahoo.com Wed Jan 8 02:07:00 2003 From: jillieroth at yahoo.com (jillieroth ) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 02:07:00 -0000 Subject: House theories/Neville In-Reply-To: <002c01c2b6b3$760f9890$0100a8c0@xyrael> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49392 > Hermione: DEFINITELY an INTJ.. Read a specific summary of INTJ's, I think you'll find that it hits the mark dead on. (There's even a rationalization for SPEW) I think you may be right. I can certainly see Hermione as a rational. However, I think she displays just as much "feeling" and she does "thinking" Yes, she is incredibly smart. But she cares deeply for people. And, I think she has shown many times that she feels rather than thinks (when she runs crying to the bathroom) "Beneath the quiet exterior, INFJs hold deep convictions about the weightier matters of life. Those who are activists -- INFJs gravitate toward such a role -- are there for the cause, not for personal glory or political power. INFJs are champions of the oppressed and downtrodden." "Accurately suspicious about others' motives, INFJs are not easily led. These are the people that you can rarely fool any of the time. Though affable and sympathetic to most, INFJs are selective about their friends . Such a friendship is a symbiotic bond that transcends mere words. In their own way, INFJs are just as much "systems builders" as are INTJs; the difference lies in that most INFJ "systems" are founded on human beings and human values, rather than information and technology. " (the website you mentioned) > Harry: I think Harry is an INTP... I'm not really certain (despite the book being written from his perspective), but I think he's a Rational, almost certainly Introverted, and probably Percieving. Also, I find that I definitely relate to Harry, and can draw some parallels between him and myself, spefically about how he views other people and the world. (I am DEFINITELY an INTP, so I know that much) I'm not so sure. I think harry is NF as well, maybe INFJ or INFP INFJ > Fred/George: ESFP What about ENFP? "ENFPs are friendly folks. Most are really enjoyable people. Some of the most soft-hearted people are ENFPs. ENFPs have what some call a "silly switch." They can be intellectual, serious, all business for a while, but whenever they get the chance, they flip that switch and become CAPTAIN WILDCHILD, the scourge of the swimming pool, ticklers par excellence. Som etimes they may even appear intoxicated when the "switch" is flipped. " > Okay, based on this wide divergence of personalities within the Gryffindor house, I would argue that keirsey temperment has little to do with sorting (though maybe it's important for other houses, specifically Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw. I believe that the defining characteristic of Gryffindors, courage, has little to do with personality type; you can be any one of the 16 personality types and still be brave. Same with Slytherin- you can be any personality type and still be evil.). First, I'd like to say I agree with you that you don't have to be a NF to be sorted into Gryffindor. (Afterall, choices are what really matter.) And, I think NFs can be sorted elsewhere. However, I think NFs may have a disposition towards Gryffindor. But I am not an expert either, and I think it is probably wise to say I am an INFP...Thus, I'm a little biased. Thanks for your time. Jillian From grayhorsestudio at attbi.com Wed Jan 8 02:09:14 2003 From: grayhorsestudio at attbi.com (coloradocowgirl94 ) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 02:09:14 -0000 Subject: Harry's fear (was: Emotion release) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49393 Hey all, I too am pretty new around here, been lurking in dark corridors for a while, and am very interested in this discussion regarding Harry. I found the most upsetting thing about GoF was that JKR took Harry right to the edge, I could picture the good cry we all would've liked to have had in Mrs. Weasley's arms, and she zipped it away. Why? I think that WHY is important for the future. It wasn't an accident. The author wrote it that way. Melody wrote: <> I think what makes it hard for us to understand how Harry could survive this "bottling" of his emotions is because of the culture we live in, it is almost impossible for us to imagine being scared to DEATH and doing our job anyway. Firefighters do it. The military do it. Very few of us, in our everyday lives as truck drivers, secretaries, and salespeople (etc, etc) ever do this. I've never done it, don't know if I could, even if I had the opportunity. This also brings up the character trait of nobility. To me, this is the ability to rise above oneself - it has to do with those choices that JKR puts at the center of Harry's whole person. What does Dumbledore say? It's not what we're born, it's who we grow to be (paraphrase)? This is the philosophical idea that one IS one's choices. Agree with the philosophical point or not, if Harry IS his choices, his choice to stand and fight DESPITE his fear is what defines him as a person. Lastly, I studied the *idea* of translation in literature in college, and my honors class eventually decided that language and cultural understanding are inseperable from the literature. JKR is an English author, and as such, her cultural experience as an Englishperson colors her literature. The English society is, historically, less "touchy-feely" than our American culture (that "stiff upper lip" and all that), and this is certainly seen in characters throughout English literature (Good Heavens - my specialty in college was Victorian Literature!!! Yikes!!). I have read a quantity of contemporary English literature as well, and I still see it. The English, I think, are more familiar with how to act a certain way even when one's emotions are not in line with the behavior. Another lastly (sorry so long-winded!); what will happen to Harry's psyche when/if the dam breaks? I think this is key to the rest of the story. Harry is *chosen*, he is *set apart*. What might be healthy for us might not be healthy for him. My two cents - feel free to sort me out!! K From chpdel at adelphia.net Wed Jan 8 02:18:35 2003 From: chpdel at adelphia.net (Tiff & Del) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 21:18:35 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What are Death Eaters? References: Message-ID: <002901c2b6bc$3f917780$cee73018@pit.adelphia.net> No: HPFGUIDX 49394 < How does the whole Death Eater thing work (especially with Snape and Lucius) and how come Lucius isn't in trouble or anything for still being a DE? You can also feel free to tell me about anything relating to HP - maybe I'll know what my friend is talking about next time! Thanks!>> Well, I do know that Lucius Malfoy somehow got out of his punishment(tho I can't recall specifically how)..there are alot of mentions of Voldemorts followers claiming they were under the Imperious Curse(you can make an individual do things against their will, if you didn't already know that :) Lucius could very well have been one of those that pleaded that way... the mark on the DE's arms don't show unless LV is calling them(like he did in GoF) so it wouldbe hard to identify who had them and who didn't...and of course you have Snape , who still has the Mark but is now on the 'good' side... hope that helped some...I *know* someone else will have a better explanation- this is an awesome list!!! Tiffany It is not fair to ask of others what you are not willing to do yourself. --Eleanor Roosevelt Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Wed Jan 8 02:54:12 2003 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen ) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 02:54:12 -0000 Subject: Significance of Dumbledore's name (WAS: A theory about Harry (kind of long, sorr In-Reply-To: <20030107183346.38089.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49395 Tyler wrote: >I suggest that the name Dumbledore has meaning. >Dumbledore is old English for bumblebee. What does a >bumblebee do? Pollinate. In its search for nectar, a >bumblebee spreads pollen, fertilising flowers (in "The >Botany of Desire", author Michael Pollen refers to >bees as 'flying penises'). Dumbledore could have been >the one who cast the spell, or gathered ingredients, >or otherwise helped Lily and James 'pollinate' their >special creation. JKR has apparently claimed that she >just liked the word Dumbledore, but we wouldn't >expect her to divulge a clue that large, would we? >One more small tidbit about bumblebees-they are >solitary, they don't hive like other bees. Sounds a >little like Dumbledore, doesn't it? Using a bee analogy for Dumbledore also has other implications. When a bee stings, it dies. Relating that in an allegorical sense to Dumbledore, it suggests that Dumbledore will "sting" Voldemort and in doing so will cause his own destruction. I've always liked this analogy because it is so simply and because such a noble character like Dumbledore seems exactly the type to sacrifice his own life for the greater good. Using this analogy it suggests that when Dumbledore dies it will be extremely calculated and voluntary resulting eventually with the ultimate downfall of Voldemort. (Whether it's Harry that finishes him off or not, it's likely Dumbledore will have a large part to play in the undoing of Voldemort, IMO) (Just one small note: According to my research on bumblebees, their sting isn't barbed, like honeybees, so they can sting more than once. Comparing Dumbledore to a bee that dies when it stings when his name is derived from one that *doesn't*, doesn't really strike me as that much of an issue because I'm talking in a symbolic sense. Bee enthusiasts, however, might disagree ;D ) ~<(Laurasia)>~ From kristen at sanderson-web.com Wed Jan 8 03:08:24 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (gkjpo ) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 03:08:24 -0000 Subject: Occam's Razor, Lupin/James and the Shiver In-Reply-To: <20030108004522.23910.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49396 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barb wrote: > ... We have no reason to believe, from the books, that James is the sort of father who would do such a thing. Occam's Razor does, however, help Hermione determine that Lupin is a werewolf because of the timing of his illnesses and the form his boggart took. ... > > > --Barb > I have to agree with you, Barb that I do not think that Lupin is James - though I probably couldn't put it as eloquently as you did :). First, in Gof - as you mentioned - when the shadows emerged, it was James that we saw. If they had switched, I think we would have seen Lupin. Harry's mother even tells him his father is coming to see him (can't look up canon because I have the uncorrected version of the book). Second, if Lupin is really James, would his boggart take the form of the moon? I would think that that particular fear would be Lupin's alone - not James'. Kristen From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Jan 8 03:23:21 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 03:23:21 -0000 Subject: Harry's Fear and Emotions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49397 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "coloradocowgirl94 " wrote: > ...edited... > > This also brings up the character trait of nobility. To me, this is > the ability to rise above oneself - it has to do with those choices > that JKR puts at the center of Harry's whole person. What does > Dumbledore say? It's not what we're born, it's who we grow to be > (paraphrase)? This is the philosophical idea that one IS one's > choices. Agree with the philosophical point or not, if Harry IS his > choices, his choice to stand and fight DESPITE his fear is what > defines him as a person. > > ...edited... > > My two cents - feel free to sort me out!! > > K bboy_mn: Allow me to add a few more Farthings into the discussion at hand. Relative to the quote above- Definition of a FOOL - someone who is not afraid. Definition of a HERO - someone who is afraid and does what has to be done anyway. Very few true heroes want to be heroes, and very few heroes view themselves as heroes. They were simply people doing what seem the obvious thing to do; simply doing what needed to be done. Don't get me wrong, I'm not denying their courage and bravery. But they acted without 'heroic' forethought or intent. They did what was right simple because it was the right thing to do. Very noble in my eyes. Now to expand the discussion to Harry's emotions in general, rather than just the need to cry or his reaction to fear. I think we need to give some thought to Harry being an abused child. To live in an abusive household, is to live with a bomb that could go off at any second, and even the slightest little thing could trigger it. The creak of a floor board, a sudden laugh or a smile, a simple question, or just being in the wrong room at the wrong time; it defies all logic. So you learn to be understated, that way you can't say anything wrong. To remain unseen, because those who can't see you can't hurt you. This is not an evironment that creates outgoing (in a positive way) expressive people. Abused people are guarded, defensive, and protective of themselves. They learn to get by alone. As lonely as alone might be, alone is still the safest place to be for someone in an abusive situation. Harry doesn't ask for help, because his abusive environment has taught him that the only person he can depend on to act is a sane, reliable, and rational way is himself. The only person he can trust enough to reveal his innerself to is himself and no one else. To live in an abusive household, or go to an 'abusive' school is to live with irrational insanity. When you are faced with that, the world doesn't come off as a very trustworth place. Harry however has great feelings for and trust in Mrs. Weasley, and I think he loves the Weasley family very deeply. In a sense, they are the only family he has ever had; that he has ever truly known. So, if there is anyone who can get him to lower his defensive emotional shield, it is probably Mrs. Weasley. There are a lot of people predicting the death of one or more Weasley family members. I really hope not, because, now that he is older, that loss of the only love he is able to feel in his life, is going to be massively devastating. To lose a Weasley brother will hurt as much as losing his own brother. To lose a Weasley parent will be more devistating than the loss of his own. I really hope that doesn't happen. Harry may be able to handle it, but I'm not sure if I can. My general point is to remind people to factor Harry's abusive past into his lack of emotional expression. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From voldemort at tut.by Wed Jan 8 04:53:30 2003 From: voldemort at tut.by (Alexander) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 06:53:30 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldie's old body (was: Voldemort and Elixir) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <926636302.20030108065330@tut.by> No: HPFGUIDX 49399 Greetings! > Kelly wrote: KLkyc> What we know was at the scene: A destroyed house, KLkyc> probably blasted to smithereens by a curse like the KLkyc> one Pettigrew used to fake his death. (***See end of KLkyc> post for speculation about this exploding curse.) KLkyc> James and Lily's dead bodies. Baby Harry, with a KLkyc> lightning-bolt wound on his forehead but otherwise KLkyc> OK. And the WW concluded, from that evidence, that KLkyc> Voldemort was gone. Well, it has always been my impression that there were a few Dumbledore's observers at the scene (persons or magical objects, I have already elaborated about this in Fidelius Charm thread), who immediately reported what happened to Dumbledore. We know that Hagrid came to the Hollow *before* Sirius, and Hagrid had to cross all Britain to come to the Potters' House (not a big stretch to assume that he was at Hogwarts in the end of October, is it?), and it's good fat chance Dumbledore was at Hogwarts as well, so for Hagrid to come first, he needed to depart almost immediately after the attack happened. So the information spread sequence looked like follows: Dumbledore's observers -> Dumbledore himself -> Hagrid -> everyone else (we know about McGonagall for sure ;) ). Naturally, if Hagrid leaked this not only to McGonagall (and given what we know of Hagrid, this is reasonable to assume), it is so natural that by the morning of the next day nearly everybody will know what happened, at least in general detail. The more I read this newsgroup, the more I become convinced in "Dumbledore's Observers" theory. It so nicely explains all those things. Probably I should invent an acronym for it. ;) Sincerely yours, Alexander Lomski, Gryffindor/Slytherin crossbreed, great supporter of McGonagall/Crookshanks SHIP. From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Wed Jan 8 05:11:54 2003 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen ) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 05:11:54 -0000 Subject: The Sneakoscope (WAS: Re: Occam's Razor, Lupin/James and the Shiver) In-Reply-To: <20030108004522.23910.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49400 Barb wrote: >As we are told that a Sneak-O-Scope goes >off when there is someone about who cannot be trusted (the twins, in the case >above) and since Moody's Sneak-O-Scope (it probably really is Moody's, not >Crouch's) is going off when Harry is in his office, we should have suspected >that there was something up with Moody. It was the logical conclusion; we >certainly know that Harry wasn't the untrustworthy one present. According to my copy of GoF, Moody's Sneakoscope *doesn't* go off at all when Harry is in his office. In fact, it's deactivated. Excerpt from Chapter 20 'The First Task' goes as such: "Now, however, the office was full of a number of exceptionally odd objects that Harry supposed Moody had used in the days when he had been an Auror. On his desk stood what looked like a large, cracked, glass spinning top. Harry recognised it at once as a Sneakoscope, because he owned one himself, though it was much smaller than Moody's.... '...I had to disable my Sneakoscope because it wouldn't stop whistling. It's extra sensitive, picks up stuff about a mile around. Of course, it could be picking up more than kids' stuff,' he added in a growl." This section clearly shows that he's got it turned off. There is no mention of it whistling at all. Perhaps you are confusing this scene with the one on the train going to Hogwarts in PoA. In that scene, Harry, Hedwig, Hermione, Crookshanks, Ron, Scabbers and Lupin are all in the same compartment. Harry's Pocket Sneakoscope goes off. On a first reading, the reader assumes that it's because Lupin is untrustworthy- after all, why should it go off for Harry, Hermione, Ron or any of their pets? Of course, after reading the whole book, you realise it was going off because Scabbers was in the compartment. Harry's Pocket Sneakoscope also goes off in his dorm with Ron/Scabbers present. This is in Chapter 11 'The Firebolt' when Harry and Ron are unwrapping their presents and Hermione comes in with Crookshanks. In this instance everyone who was present in the train compartment was there, except Professor Lupin and Hedwig. This rules out Lupin (and Hedwig) as being the untrustworthy ones that set off the Sneakocope (as it still goes off without them present). The readers goes to the next likely conclusion- it was Crookshanks, who, apart from being a bit unusual was chasing Scabbers at the moment. When I was reading the book, at first I suspected Lupin (as he was the only new character present) and later, after Lupin was portrayed as an honest and noble character, suspected Crookshanks (as he does, after all, try to 'eat' Scabbers quite frequently), which, I presume, was exactly how JKR wanted me to think. After one makes those conclusions, when Scabber's true identity is revealed you go 'Oh!' and everything falls into place. Ahh, the wonders of JKR's writing abilities... ;D ~<(Laurasia)>~ From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Wed Jan 8 05:43:35 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller ) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 05:43:35 -0000 Subject: Death Eaters Numbers In-Reply-To: <36.35dc23c3.2b4c8700@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49401 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, kewiromeo at a... wrote: > I have mentioned before that there were only a handful or so of death eaters. In the graveyard scene, Voldemort names about 15 wizards. Then later, on page 660 "Priori Incantatem" of my US paperback edition, it says: "... he (Harry) was surrounded by Death Eaters, outnumbered by at least thirty to one" I think we can assume that there were about 30 DE's present at the reunion, 3 "dead in my service" and 3 others not present. It says that the gap of 6 missing was the largest gap in the circle, and also, that each member knows his/her spot in the circle. By that, I don't think we can conclude that there are vast numbers not present. I think the total count of living DE's, including the 3 missing, must be about 33. Add to that the survivors in Azkaban, whose mental condition is questionable, and that would be the force. However, it may be possible for DE's to recruit others to join the cause who might not become full DE's, bringing their strength up. Then they could also add vast numbers of Imperio'd others, and don't forget the Dementors. LV seems to believe that he would have the Giants, too. Then there are vampires, banshees, and who knows what other species might be Dark Side recruits. It could become a rather impressive force when you add it all up. ~ Constance Vigilance ~ From srsiriusblack at aol.com Wed Jan 8 06:58:53 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 01:58:53 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin's Shiver When Confroted by Hermione's Accusations i... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49403 In a message dated 07/01/2003 17:39:37 Eastern Standard Time, hodgins at ssi.net writes: > This shiver that Lupin gives when responding to Hermione's > accusations in the Shrieking Shack has been on my mind. What might > it mean? > "I have not been helping Sirius get into the castle and I certainly > don't want Harry dead..." An odd shiver passed over his face. But I > won't deny that I am a werewolf."(quoting Lupin on p.345 of the > American Hardcover version) > > It does seem to support a number of theories out there, including: > > a) Lupin traded bodies with James before he was killed and now James > (in Lupin's body), who would want to protect Harry above all other > things, shivers at even the thought that he would ever harm his > beloved son. > > b) Is Lupin being less than honest? Does the shiver signify that > under some, yet unknown circumstances, he would consider harming > Harry? Perhaps, the ultimate destruction of Voldemort may require > the death of Harry (forgive the Savior concept) and Lupin foresees > this possible sacrifice. > > c) Maybe the shiver only relates to his distaste at having to reveal > his condition of werewolf to Harry and Ron. > > I'm fishing around here. Have others been struck by this line? > I'm not a big fan of the Lupin/James body switching theory, so I am biased on this concept. To me the shiver was a sign of self hatred. Lupin, forced to live with a condition that not only is a great impediment to his health, his relations with others but also a condition which yeilds him an outcast in the WW, is ashamed and probably at this moment questions whether or not this revelation will tarnish the loving pseudo-fatherly position that he has been in with Harry throughout the year. In this particular scene, the truths have not yet been revealed. If I remember correctly, RHH are armed, Lupin and Black are not. Lupin is a position of great danger, but I truly feel that more than the fear for his own life, he fears that Harry will not learn the truth before rage and anger at the revelation of Lupin's werewolfieness takes control and causes Harry to raise his wand. Just a few thoughts as I catch up with the other 50 posts I missed today. -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From srsiriusblack at aol.com Wed Jan 8 07:04:42 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 02:04:42 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's fear (was: Emotion release) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49404 In a message dated 07/01/2003 18:19:29 Eastern Standard Time, Malady579 at hotmail.com writes: > Do you really think hearing torture will cause him to fear? The > screams he hears under the dementors are pretty bad in themselves, and > he *does* fear them. In fact, the whole point of the dementor part > was to see what Harry fears, and he fears fear. Seems a person that > fears fear only has to overcome that fear to truly do amazing things. One thing that has always struck me is that when Harry hears his mum and father in the dementor "blackouts" he experiences, there is a point where Harry must convince himself that hearing his father's voice is not a reason to let himself succomb to the Dementors. This little thing shows that Harry has somewhat of a complex choice. In that moment the fear is gone and there is a desire to experience the depths of the Dementor "blackouts" to know more of what happened the night of his parents' deaths and to hear his father more clearly. I think that it shows a deeper understanding on Harry's part, but also shows a weakness which may come more into play in the next books. -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From srsiriusblack at aol.com Wed Jan 8 07:12:55 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 02:12:55 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Death Eater Numbers/ Harry's Tears Message-ID: <148.715b9a4.2b4d2977@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49405 In a message dated 07/01/2003 20:45:34 Eastern Standard Time, rvotaw at i-55.com writes: > Kelly L. writes: > > >So, to make a long > >ramble short, I think there were far more DE's than the small > >number who were actually named. > > I also think that there are others. Not just those present and not named, > but almost as if those who came to the graveyard were the elite. The > captains of the guard. That each of these has a group under them. It > would've been rather awkward to bring in hundreds (not just for being > there, but for the story to flow!). Perhaps there not all called Death > Eaters even. Maybe "Death Eater" is the worst of them. The "Top Guns." > > Again, I always agree that there are more D.Es and more troops to Voldemort's army, so to speak. To me it has always made sense that there is a small inner core- the most trusted, the most useful, etc. The people in the inner circle are probably, like Lucius rich, influential, and most likely talented wizards/witches. They carry out the plans from the base, so to speak, and wrangle the others into position. In any military or political group there is almost always a structure like this found. The inner circle gives the important information to leader and vice versa. They aid in the decisions and start the gears in motion for the lesser ranks. -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From srsiriusblack at aol.com Wed Jan 8 07:17:24 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 02:17:24 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin's Shiver When Confroted by Hermione's Accusatio... Message-ID: <12.2b4c435f.2b4d2a84@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49406 In a message dated 07/01/2003 21:35:19 Eastern Standard Time, snorth at ucla.edu writes: > Agreed. Is it just me, or are people jumping at the slighest twitch of any > character in this book? I blame the "Harry thought he saw a gleam of > something like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes" (GoF ch. 36, pg. 696 US first > edition). That's almost certainly significant, but just because a > character shivers, shudders, frowns, gasps, or smiles doesn't mean there's > some hidden meaning in it; I think that JKR is just trying to make > conversations more colorful. > > Ok. Yes. I think that sometimes we all want to read more into some of the smaller details... but JKR is also giving us descriptions of body language, and sometimes those little shivers, quakes, winks, etc can give us insight more into the characters we love. I know I am completely obsessed with HP, I don't deny it, but I also see JKR as an exceptionally crafty writer who would likely add little descriptions of body langauge to give us more insight into the minds of the characters. -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From oppen at mycns.net Wed Jan 8 09:22:20 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 03:22:20 -0600 Subject: Voldemort a Puppet? Message-ID: <012f01c2b6f7$73501280$23560043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 49407 It occurs to me, considering the character of Cornelius Fudge, that Voldemort himself might be no more than a puppet---manipulated by someone (high-ranking followers making suggestions in ways that ensure that he'll likely take them, and selectively feeding him information) to ensure the domination of the British wizarding world by others---and that Cornelius Fudge might well be one of the puppet-masters. Voldemort's actions and motivations have never made much sense to me. If, as he states, his goal is immortality---the defeat of death---his campaign against Muggle-born wizards and witches, and the whole "purebloods rule, mudbloods drool" meme is, at best, an unnecessary distraction----and at worst, might actually prevent him from attaining his goal, either by raising up unnecessary enemies to destroy him, or preventing him from acknowledging and using the talents of Muggle-born wizards and witches to attain immortality. So, let us consider this idea: A brilliant, but twisted and permanently-embittered, young mage, Thomas Marvolo Riddle, is spotted, possibly while he's still at Hogwarts, by a cabal of high-ranking mages who wish to control British wizarding life. He is approached, and offered training in the Dark Arts, by representatives of this cabal, and not being one to look beyond the surface of things, accepts. (Remember all the times that V'mort has stumbled over something that he should have known about?) His teachers are selected to twist him further and make him the perfect puppet, reinforcing his dislike of Muggles and Muggle-born mages, and he is allowed to gather followers, many of whom are in the cabal themselves and loyal to its goals. Voldemort's rampages are carefully directed against those mages who most represent a threat to the cabal, on the grounds that they're too sympathetic to Muggles, or are Muggle-born or of "impure blood" themselves. The Ministry wizards and witches who are targeted are mostly targeted because they're in the way of the cabal's members themselves rising to power, or are blocking the cabal's goals. At the same time, the cabal's members use the fear of Voldemort among mages to increase their own power and influence, posing as valiant fighters for the side of Goodness. Many of Voldemort's followers, the deluded True Believers *coughLestrangescoughcough* are considered eminently expendable---worthwhile as long as they're taking out people the cabal wants out of the way, and also worthwhile scapegoats and sacrifical lambs when the rest of the Wizard World demands blood for the suffering that the Death Eaters have brought on them. Now, whether Voldemort is _still_ a controllable puppet is questionable, but he could well have started out as one. From what we see of him at the end of GoF, he's got the bit between his teeth and is off to the races on his own account, and I don't think that any surviving cabal members in his inner circle *coughLuciusMalfoycough* could continue to control him. He's a long way from stupid, but has a bad habit of only believing things he wants to believe, and mistreating even his closest followers (no matter _how_ much I disliked Peter Pettigrew/Wormtail, if I were dependent on him to keep my sorry a$$ alive, you can bet I'd be sweet as pie to his face!) so he may be coming to the end of his usefulness. Wouldn't it be an interesting twist to have Harry face down and destroy the evil Dark Lord---and then find out that the real enemy was never Voldemort, but the people who more-or-less created him and turned him loose on the WW? _Harry Potter and the Magical Illuminati,_ anyone? From amani at charter.net Wed Jan 8 03:35:17 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 22:35:17 -0500 Subject: Veritaserum & Sirius' trial (was Re - Veritaserum) References: Message-ID: <018501c2b6c6$f6c3c480$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49408 Lily Solstar: >Which brings us to another question: Wouldn't someone with Sirius' >personality (he was a Gryffindor) at least *try* to defend his >innocence? Maybe the MoM didn't want to listen, but surely all he >would have to do was to owl up Dumbledore. Did he truly see no hope >in the situation? One, Sirius obviously thinks he is to blame. We know this. And when he's found /laughing/ at the "death site" of Peter, the man is in hysterics and is /not/ doing well mentally and emotionally. I don't think he'd be in the right mindset to start protesting be putting away for something that he thinks he himself has set in motion to come to such an twistedly ironic end. And they got him into Azkaban extremely quickly. I think Sirius' guilt is so extremely deep set that he would keep himself in Azkaban as self-punishment. The only reason he attempted escape in PoA was because he found out Peter was alive. Thus the obsession started. Yes, Sirius feels he is to blame, but then there's /one/ person who, in his mind, committed the most atrocious crime possible. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From honoriagranger at yahoo.com Wed Jan 8 07:10:13 2003 From: honoriagranger at yahoo.com (Honoria Granger ) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 07:10:13 -0000 Subject: Potter Geography Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49409 Forgive me if this has already been discussed...but just where do we think Godric's Hollow was located? Hagrid mentions that Harry "fell asleep while we was flying over Bristol", on the way to Little Whinging (I *love* that) in Surrey. Can we assume then that Godric's Hollow must be somewhere in the West Country or Wales? What other flight plan point of origin would take one over Bristol on the way to somewhere south of London? I don't think Hagrid would go too far off the direct route; he'd be trying to get baby H to Dumbledore as fast as possible... Honoria Granger Hermione's Older, Smarter Cousin From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jan 8 11:38:26 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 11:38:26 -0000 Subject: Potter Geography In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49410 Honoria:"Forgive me if this has already been discussed...but just where do we think Godric's Hollow was located?" Can we assume then that Godric's Hollow must be somewhere in the West Country or Wales? What other flight plan point of origin would take one over Bristol on the way to somewhere south of London?" That's been the consensus. It hasn't been talked about in a long time. Some have speculated that Godric Gryffindor is from Wales, though the Lexicon does not locate Godric's Hollow on its map or in its Gazetter. What's not clear is if Godric's Hollow is a town or village or if it's the name of James and Lily's house (a la The Burrow). Since Hogsmeade is the only all-wizard settlement in Britain, then Godric's Hollow, if it's a village, is a Muggle village. From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Wed Jan 8 12:33:12 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 06:33:12 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Death Eaters Numbers References: Message-ID: <3E1C1A88.695C2F20@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49411 "Susan Miller " wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, kewiromeo at a... wrote: > > I have mentioned before that there were only a handful or so of > death eaters. > > In the graveyard scene, Voldemort names about 15 wizards. Then later, > on page 660 "Priori Incantatem" of my US paperback edition, it says: > > "... he (Harry) was surrounded by Death Eaters, outnumbered by at > least thirty to one" > > I think we can assume that there were about 30 DE's present at the > reunion, 3 "dead in my service" and 3 others not present. It says > that the gap of 6 missing was the largest gap in the circle, and > also, that each member knows his/her spot in the circle. By that, I > don't think we can conclude that there are vast numbers not present. > I think the total count of living DE's, including the 3 missing, must > be about 33. Add to that the survivors in Azkaban, whose mental > condition is questionable, and that would be the force. However, it > may be possible for DE's to recruit others to join the cause who > might not become full DE's, bringing their strength up. Then they > could also add vast numbers of Imperio'd others, and don't forget the > Dementors. LV seems to believe that he would have the Giants, too. > Then there are vampires, banshees, and who knows what other species > might be Dark Side recruits. > > It could become a rather impressive force when you add it all up. > > ~ Constance Vigilance ~ > > Its a good bet that not all the DE's were named as Voldemort went around the circle. Possible he never completed the circle and stopped halfway or so, after naming only the most prominent DEs, his 'officers', the rest being too low ranked to confront? Could have been others there who were just his 'canon fodder', unworthy of notice and not mentioned by name? Jazmyn From suzie_t666 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 8 13:10:17 2003 From: suzie_t666 at hotmail.com (Paul Smith, unfortunately. ) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 13:10:17 -0000 Subject: Fleur in 5th book Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49412 Hey everyone, Forgive my potential foolery in this, my first post, as I'm not certain as to what the consensus is on the issue, but what is thought to be the role, if any, of Fleur Delacour in the 5th book? And if she does indeed turn out to be the 5th DADA teacher, what do people think of the possibility of her being the second Triwizard champion to die in as many books? Her final appearence in GoF provides, I think, enough canonical evidence to put her in the frame; "We will see each uzzer again, I 'ope" shows that she is fan of Harry, as well as her gratitude after he "saved" Gabrielle, and "I am 'oping to get a job 'ere, to improve my Eenglish" is what I am guessing has been cited before as an indicator of Fleur's presence in the next book. Finally, the DADA post. If Fleur is the new teacher, it must be remembered that none have yet survived a year, and the death of the next one would be a pretty certain way of ensuring that run continues. Perhaps Arabella Figg could turn out to be both DADA teacher and a fan of Harrys, but as we know the DADA teacher will definitely be a woman, and I can't see any of the potential candidates not being fans of Harry. The one loose thread in my argument is that I can't see how Fleur's (or Figg's) deaths would be horrible to write, but then again JK Rowling has 38 chapters to build those emoitional ties up, and we all know how quickly she can change our opinions about characters, through our experience of Scabber's unveiling to be Wormtail. So, Fleur to die, what do we think? Or if you've discussed it already say so and I'll read that post. Thankies, Suze. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx From wynnde1 at aol.com Wed Jan 8 13:56:16 2003 From: wynnde1 at aol.com (wynnde1 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 08:56:16 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's fate in book 5 & Amos Diggory Message-ID: <82.24e3832e.2b4d8800@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49413 Hello, Everyone! A few days ago, I wrote: << [Amos] Diggory's . . . a bully, a hypocrite, dishonourable, and pompous. >> To which Jo Serenadust wrote: "Well, I'd have to agree that Amos definitely has bullying tendencies, and is rather pompous as well. I didn't pick up on anything especially dishonorable or hypocritical about him as much as the fact that he's so besotted with Cedric and his accomplishments, that he's got a rather large blind spot where he's concerned." Catlady also responded to my comments, saying: "Amos Diggory is *definitely* vulgar, but what evidence is there of him being *any* of those other things? His rough way of questioning Winky when she was found with Harry's wand near the Dark Mark is often cited as an example of him being a bully, but I have always read that interrogation as Amos and Arthur using the well-known "bad cop, good cop" technique. That they fell so easily, as if by habit, into their roles, gives me the idea that they had previously worked together in some investigatory or law-enforcement job." Now me: After going back and re-reading the sections featuring Diggory (the Portkey Chapter and Dark Mark chapters of GoF), I realise that my strong dislike for Diggory is perhaps more intense than the actual canon warrants. That's not to say I'm backing down on disliking him - but I did realise that it would probably be easy to read him as being far more sympathetic. That's just not the way I read him. As for him being pompous and a bully, I just can't see him any other way. I do see the validity in your reading, Catlady (good cop, bad cop), but that's just not the way I read it. Yes, he's acting like a "bad cop" in this scenario, but I think that's just the way he is, as opposed to it being a tactic used (even somewhat unconsciously) by him and Arthur. I particularly dislike the way he treats Winky in the Dark Mark chapter of GoF - "You've been caught red-handed, elf!" Mr. Diggory roared. "Caught with the guilty wand in your hand!" Winky is obviously terrified and distraught, and the suggestion that she could have actually been the one to conjure the mark is ridiculous, actually, so I find it wholly unacceptable for Diggory to treat her in this manner. Even if there was a chance she was guilty, this sort of intimidation doesn't sit well with me - whether or not it's a "tactic," which I don't think it is. I think he just likes to bully and intimidate people. Come to think of it, I'll add another item to the list of Diggory's sins: Bigotry. He questions Harry about conjuring the mark, but the only person he actually screams at is Winky - which tells me that he doesn't believe House Elves are beings who deserve rights and respect. Okay, admittedly, most of the Wizarding World seems to feel this way, but that still doesn't make it *right*. I'm with Hermione on this one "He didn't care how frightened she'd been, or how upset she was - it was like she wasn't even human!" I will choose to ignore Ron's reponse to that ("Well, she's not") And actually, wherever elves do fall on the scale of "beings" I still believe they should be treated with respect. What it reminds me of (although this may be a poor analogy) is people who think it's okay to mistreat their pets because they're "just animals." I've even heard the argment that animals can't actually feel pain (because they are not complex enough organisms, or whatever), so it's not wrong to kick them or starve them or perform medical experiments upon them. That's just stupid, but apparently there are people who believe that. Okay, maybe worms don't have highly developed nervous systems, but cats and dogs and rats? Hmnh. This makes me wonder how it feels to be transfigured into a teacup. After all, Draco was described as being in pain after being transfigured into a ferret (of course, that could have been because of being bounced about the stone floors of the castle ). Still, it kind of puts all that transfiguration of MacGonagall's in a somewhat sinister light, doesn't it? ;-) In any case, Diggory's treatment of Winky is, to my mind, deplorable. Okay, so I've still got Diggory down as a bully, and as pompous (do I need to back this one up? Isn't this fairly obvious, especially in the way he treats Harry upon their first meeting?), and now he's a bigot as well, at least in regard to elves. For his other sins of dishonour and hypocrisy, well, these are going to be more difficult for me to justify. I started believing these things about him based on the scene where Harry first meets Amos while waiting to get the portkey to the QWC: (The Portkey, GoF) "Ced's talked about you, of course," said Amos Diggory. "Told us all about playing against you last year . . . I said to him, I said - Ced, that'll be something to tell your grandchildren, that will . . . You beat Harry Potter!" Harry couldn't think of any reply to this, so he remained silent. Fred and George were both scowling again. Cedric looked slightly embarrassed. "Harry fell off his broom, Dad," he muttered. "I told you . . . it was an accident . . ." Yes, but you didn't fall off, did you?" roared Amos genially, slapping his son on his back. "Always modest, our Ced, always the gentleman . . . but the best man won, I'm sure Harry'd say the same, wouldn't you, eh? One falls off his broom, one stays on, you don't need to be a genius to tell which one's the better flier!" That just gave me a very bad feeling about Diggory when I first read it. And it still does, although in re-reading it I can see that he's not actually rude or offensive, just very insensitive, making Harry and Cedric both uncomfortable, not to mention what the others may have been feeling. What Jo (see above) calls his "rather large blind spot," I tend to think of as being somehow more damning than that. I'll say a bit more on that later. However, since Diggory does seem to believe his version of things, I suppose he can't really be called a hypocrite. So, I'll take back hypocrite, *but* will add insensitive to Diggory's list of character flaws. As for dishonourable, I think it would be more accurate to say that Diggory and I have a different definition of what honourable is. By his standards, I imagine that he feels entirely justified in everything he does and says. But, as I think he's an insensitive, pompous, bigoted bully, I obviously don't agree with him. So I'm sticking with dishonourable, although I'm not sure it actually has solid canon behind it. Athena offered her support to the theory that Harry could be framed for Cedric's death when she wrote: "You see, I've done a lot of thinking about that and I think Harry is going to be painted in a *very* unfavorable light. I think Fudge is going to make Harry, Sirius Black and Dumbledore look like they are responsible for all that is wrong with the Wizarding World. I also think that Amos Diggory will soon come to believe that Harry killed Cedric and will subsequently do anything in his power to get at him. Here is my poisoned pen rendition of what the Daily Prophet might run." Now me: I love it! And thanks, Athena, your post is a terrific illustration of what I was talking about - it would be so easy to make Harry look very suspicious. I like the way you show how easy it would be to make Dumbledore's actions look dodgy, as well. (Plus, I had a couple of really good laughs reading your post, as well . . . especially Narcissa crying while telling how her son was found unconscious with footprints on him LOL!). How easy it would be for Diggory to take something like this and start an anti-Harry campaign throughout the Wizarding World. There is only one part of your article with which I disagree: You wrote: " It is commonly known that one cannot Apparate or Disapparate on the grounds of Hogwarts, so any claim that Potter and Diggory left Hogwarts, saw You-Know-Who rise again and then reappear at Hogwarts grounds should be treated with great suspicion said a source from the Ministry of Magic." Actually, as far I can can tell, Hermione and Snape are the only ones who seem to know this! Everyone else (Ron in particular) seems to have trouble remembering this little fact from Hogwarts - A History. ;-) Tee hee hee. Moving on . . . Jo Serenadust also wrote: "I'm so glad that someone besides me thinks that Amos Diggory and his past and future role in the story will be significant. Yet, somehow I just can't bring myself to *really* dislike him. I know that he's given Harry a hard time, and will very likely give him worse in the future. I just can't help feeling so very sorry for him. After all, the last time we see him in GoF, he "sobbed through most of the interview." For all of his bluster, I imagine that his wife is the stronger of the two of them, and that he's so utterly destroyed by Cedric's death, that his future actions will be the result of a broken, irrational heart. Of course, that doesn't mean that they won't be terribly destructive, particularly to Harry." Well, I partially agree with you here - I do have great sympathy for him over the death of his son. And you are probably right that his wife is the one with more genuine strength. *However* I think Diggory is going to be a prime example of someone doing what is *easy* rather than what is *right*. This may sound a bit harsh as I'm speaking about Amos, who is certainly suffering intensely. We (I mean we culturally) seem to take for granted that people will do drastic and extreme things in the aftermath of a tragedy. Which is understandable, of course it is . . . to a certain degree. However, even though Amos is suffering, that doesn't make it okay for him to try and destroy Harry (or anyone else) just because he is grieving for his son. You say that he'll be acting from his "broken, irrational heart." I say that, no matter how broken hearted he is, he is still responsible for his actions. My point is that if he does things which are destructive and harmful to Harry, it will not be solely because of his grief - yes, that would be the catalyst for him to act. But it is the character flaws he already has in place which will allow him to pursue his vendetta against Harry no matter what - I see him becoming very single-minded and unwilling to listen to any evidence of Harry's innocence. He'll make his decision based on the information he is willing to accept, and then run with it, much as he did with his analysis of Cedric's Quidditch victory. It had nothing to do with which one of the boys was the better flyer, as it was the Dementors which caused Harry to fall. But does Amos care? No, I don't think he does. (I am assuming that Amos knew about the Dementors, based on what we know about Cedric - I think he would have told his dad the whole story). He focuses only on the parts of the story which make him feel good about his son (and, by extension, himself). You say you can't help but feeling sorry for him. Well, as I said, I have sympathy for him, too. But I didn't like the person he was before Cedric was killed, and if he goes after Harry now, I won't be able to believe he's acting that way just because his son died. He'll be doing it because that's just the sort of person he is - someone who likes to attack and intimidate others, and someone who isn't willing to consider points of view other than his own. So, it's not Amos' broken heart that will cause him to attack Harry. He was a bully long before Cedric died. All this is IMVHO, of course! :-) And, on a more personal note to Jo, I'd like to agree with the comment someone else already made that if you aren't getting a lot of responses to your posts, it's just because they are so well-thought out that there's nothing else to say but, "me too!" And, I'm also ever-so-grateful that there is at least one other person here willing to discuss the dastardly Mr. Diggory. But please don't hold your breath for the 9-part defamation. I think I've already said just about everything I can think of to say about Amos Diggory. I just don't think I'm clever enough to come up with anything more! But, if you and I are correct, there will be *tons* more dirt on the man after Book 5 comes out! :-) Cheers! Wendy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sixhoursahead at yahoo.com Wed Jan 8 14:16:21 2003 From: sixhoursahead at yahoo.com (Angela Evans) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 06:16:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Did Peter really kill those Muggles? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030108141621.9376.qmail@web14606.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49414 "pickle_jimmy " wrote: <> ME: possible, but Fudge didn't just happen to be there, he did have a reason. He was the Junior Minister of the Department of Magical Catastrophes. Yes he may have had ulterior motives, but his being one of the first on the scene isn't particularly suspicious. I do find it interesting that JKR has Fudge as being a high official in the dept. that responded to the blast. The plot doesn't NEED Fudge's first-hand account to advance the story of what happened. < Now, when he get's found out he is as frightened of going to see Fudge as he is of Black. When Fudge is told the story, he furious at the thought that Peter might have survived the blast, and wants to quiet Black before the story gets out.>> ME: This is an interesting theory, and could help explain alot of Fudge's behavior in POA. Though on the other hand simple disbelief of the Trio's frankly incredulous story about PP and Black could also easily account for it. But I find it hard to believe that Peter simply happened to lose one finger in the blast. I suppose it is POSSIBLE, but unlikely. And the loss of the finger lends itself more to the "faked death". <> ME: OK, here is where it gets interesting for me. Black says that the reason PP has been hiding all these years is because he fears the DEs who blame him for LV's downfall, because LV dissapeared while following PP's info. I find this a little weak. Black DOES say that he personally heard DEs in Azkaban calling PP a traitor, but still. I think PP could have argued his case to the DEs. ANGELA --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sixhoursahead at yahoo.com Wed Jan 8 14:47:07 2003 From: sixhoursahead at yahoo.com (Angela Evans) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 06:47:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Potters' House Destroyed (was)Re: Voldie's old body In-Reply-To: <926636302.20030108065330@tut.by> Message-ID: <20030108144707.98283.qmail@web14612.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49415 So the discussion goes, why was the Potter's house destroyed? AK does not cause this kind of destruction. We are fairly certain that the Potter's were AKed (Harry's memory of the green light). Also, when PP blasted the street, the muggles did not die from any "magic", but presumably from the explosion, like people who actually WERE killed in a gas explosion. If the Potter's had been killed in this matter, it would probably been known by the state of their bodies. So I think we can safely say they WERE AKed. Also, Voldemort's wand in Priori Incantatem shows that no spell to destroy the house was cast by him before he killed Lily and James. So what destroyed the house? Well, no one has EVER survived AK before, and never before has an AK curse cast by an immensly powerful dark wizard ever failed and ricocheted back onto that dark wizard who was no longer completely mortal (I agree that Voldemort's body then was not "human"). Could this have had such a dramatic effect as to create a huge explosion, or somehow destruct the house? It could. Baby Harry in his crib was mighty lucky to have survived the house falling down on top of him. In response to how people were able to assume that LV was gone (when they had no proof that he was dead) within 24 hours of his failed curse, it is a good question. And canon gives us only one concrete reason. When Hagrid tells that Harry that they knew LV was gone because some wizards came "out of trances" , presumably when they were freed from LV's imperius. But could this realization could have happened so quickly? You just have to think that more people (good or bad) were present in or around that house that night besides the four we know of. ANGELA --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From 7dragons at immajer.com Wed Jan 8 14:19:29 2003 From: 7dragons at immajer.com (AD) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 09:19:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A theory about Harry (kind of long, sorry!) In-Reply-To: References: <20030107183346.38089.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20030108091929.0136bac0@127.0.0.1> No: HPFGUIDX 49416 >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tyler Hewitt >wrote: > >> What if Harry was concieved specifically to fight >> Voldemort?> >>Dumbledore could have been the one who cast the spell, or gathered >>ingredients, or otherwise helped Lily and James `pollinate' their >> special creation.> > >and At 09:33 PM 1/7/03 -0000, jenny_ravenclaw wrote: > > It is an interesting >theory, but I can't agree with it for two reasons: one is that I'd >hate to think that all of the nice things we've heard about James and >Lily as parents aren't so nice after all; that they decided to have >Harry not as a child, but almost as an experiment. That Dumbledore >might have been involved in such a plan makes it all the more... >sinister. > >The other reason is that it was Lily's love that protected baby Harry >from Voldemort to begin with. How much real love would be there if >Lily and James had a baby for the sole reason of defeating an evil >wizard and not because they loved each other and wanted to start a >family? Why can't it be both? As far as I can remember, it's fairly firmly established in canon that Lily and James were an item throughout a substantial portion of their school years, which makes it far more likely that their marriage was one of love rather than based on any sort of pragmatism. Perhaps they were planning to start a family anyway -- or at least, once the War had been won -- and then the suggestion was made to cast this spell to make their child 'special' somehow. Certainly, it would have been a difficult decision for any parents to make, knowingly placing their child in jeopardy before it was even conceived -- but then, at that point, ALL children, and everyone else, was in jeopardy from Voldemort anyway; and Lily and James' child all the more so, if they were specifically fighting Voldemort on their own. The decision to start a family would itself have been a difficult one, at that time in history -- and in that context, the decision to 'experiment' with Harry becomes a question of, "Are we going to give our child a fighting chance to survive, and perhaps save us all?" rather than one as callous as, "Oh, let's mess around with this embryo for the heck of it and see what happens." It's also possible that the nature of the spell had as one of its components the love that the would-be parents felt for each other -- which would tie in neatly with the whole motherly-love-saving-Harry thing. Personally, I don't see the concepts of 'Harry-as-beloved-child' and 'Harry-as-product-of-spell' as being mutually exclusive at all, though your mileage may vary. -AD, late for work and rushing to make this post beforehand regardless. From anakinbester at hotmail.com Wed Jan 8 17:07:32 2003 From: anakinbester at hotmail.com (anakinbester ) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 17:07:32 -0000 Subject: Did Peter really kill those Muggles + did he torture Bertha? In-Reply-To: <20030108141621.9376.qmail@web14606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49417 Angela Evans wrote: > OK, here is where it gets interesting for me. Black says that the reason PP has been hiding all these years is because he fears the DEs who blame him for LV's downfall, because LV dissapeared while following PP's info. I find this a little weak. Black DOES say that he personally heard DEs in Azkaban calling PP a traitor, but still. I think PP could have argued his case to the DEs. Me: Well, not all the DE's seem perfectly reasonable, but yes, I think Peter could have argued his case as well, though it would have been risky, and Peter doesn't seem to like taking risks. Peter also doesn't ever seem to want to do anything directly. The only action that I can think of that he did directly is to kill Cedric, but even then he was "just following orders" (yay for moronic excuses) Ok my actual point, I always thought he wasn't running so much from anyone in particular, but from what he'd done. If he hadn't faked his death, then he would need to, on record, accuse Sirius of both being the spy, and trying to kill him. I think it was simply eaiser on Peter to pretend to be dead, that way he doens't need to face up to anythign he's done. he can also argue that it's not really his fault Sirius went to prison. The wizards jumped to a conclusion without looking for facts. All Peter has to do is not ever give them reason to quetion the conclusion, which he does by remaining dead. Also, Peter breaks down quickly in the shrieking shack. I don't know that he could have stood before everyone and accused Sirius without giving off massive, 'I'm lying' body language. Of course, that perception then goes against his ability to be a spy. (but in my mind Peter does have a lousy poker face, just no one figures out the real reason he's so nervous, so it makes sense in my little world ^^) Another thing though, Peter can also escape the DE's, and here I don't simply mean escape as in they won't chase him down and kill him. By being dead, even if Voldemort does come back, Peter needn't ever rejoin the DE's. Course he wasn't expecting to be found be Sirius I suspect. I mean Peter didn't seem any more eager to search out Voldemort than most other DE. He only does so when he feels cournered. Anyway, all this simply goes back to be dislike of taking anything Black says about Peter at face value. And finally, I've been trying to find something on this in other posts. I can't (I'm a terrible ML researcher *Sigh*) If it's been delt with could somone direct me to some posts on it? If not, It's something I've wondered. Who tortured Bertha? According to Voldemort's account, Peter made him the fragil body _after_ Bertha was tortured. But if Voldemort was vapor, he couldn't have used any magical, or presumably physical means to extract information from Bertha. Peter, however, does not strike me as an expert torturer. Do you think Voldemort's time line is inaccurate? If so, would it be a flint, or intentional? Could he have posessed Peter for a short time and used Peter's body to torture Bertha? Or did Peter actually do the torturing? Ah well, just thought I'd ask since I was out of lurker mode anyway. -Ani From duranta at pop.belmont.edu Wed Jan 8 16:31:42 2003 From: duranta at pop.belmont.edu (durant_a2002 ) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 16:31:42 -0000 Subject: Barty Crouch Jr. the Loyal Supporter? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49418 Everyone, please forgive me if this topic has been discussed before. I think it is fairly clear in GoF that Voldemort means his one loyal DE at Hogwarts to be Barty Crouch Jr. And Voldie makes of big deal out of the fact that Crouch went to Azkaban, escaped and tried to help him return to power. Voldemort is disgusted with the death eaters who renounced him to save their own lives, such as Karkaroff. However, when Harry sees Crouch Jr. in the Pensieve, he sees a man who, at that point would clearly be willing to renounce Voldemort and all the dark magic if it meant that he didn't have to go to Azkaban. It was the other three who were with him who were the truly loyal ones. Crouch was begging his father for forgiveness. "durant" From suzchiles at pobox.com Wed Jan 8 18:32:47 2003 From: suzchiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 10:32:47 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Potter Geography In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49420 Jim said: > What's not clear is if Godric's Hollow is a town or village or if it's > the name of James and Lily's house (a la The Burrow). Since Hogsmeade > is the only all-wizard settlement in Britain, then Godric's Hollow, if > it's a village, is a Muggle village. I think it's *highly* unlikely that there would be a muggle village named after one of the founders of a house at Hogwart's. I think it's the ancestral site of Godric Gryffindor's home, that somehow came to be owned by James Potter. I suspect that the site has been in the Potter family for many years (heir of Gryffindor and all that), and that's why it had been passed on to James. Perhaps Harry will settle there after he leaves Hogwarts. Suzanne From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Jan 8 18:56:21 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 18:56:21 -0000 Subject: Potter Geography In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49421 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer " Jim Ferer wrote: > ... ... ...but just where do we think Godric's Hollow was located?" > > Can we assume then that Godric's Hollow must be somewhere in the > WestCountry or Wales? What other flight plan point of origin would > take one over Bristol on the way to somewhere south of London?" > > That's been the consensus. ... [BBOY_MN replies: No concensus.] > > What's not clear is if Godric's Hollow is a town or village or if > it's the name of James and Lily's house (a la The Burrow). Since > Hogsmeade is the only all-wizard settlement in Britain, then > Godric's Hollow, if it's a village, is a Muggle village. > > Jim Ferer bboy_mn: Two theories- 1.) The first is very similar to your speculation. I believe, and I'm sure others will correct my if I'm wrong, but JKRowling at one time in her childhood lived in Bristol then moved to a small village North of Cardiff, Wales. So, I suspect she has placed Godric's Hollow in that general vicinity. I would say, somewhere near the Black Mountains/Brecon Beacons National Park. 2.) Now another wild theory. A while back we were once again discussing the Missing 24 Hours. There is a 24 hour period between when Hagrid takes Harry from his home and when he delivers him to Dumbledore at the Dursley's. Somehow/somewhere during this time, Hagrid tells Prof. McGonagall that Harry will be at 4 Privet Drive in Little Whinging, Surrey. So where could Hagrid have possibly been that he would run into McGonagall? It's unlikely McGonagall was in Wales unless she was maybe vactioning on the beach in Cardiff or something. Somehow McGonagall doesn't seem the beach vacation type though. So now I have to come up with a way to reconcile Hagrid meeting McGonagall and Hagrid flying over Bristol. One possible theory is that Hagrid picked up Harry and flew to Hogwards. That's a long fly, so the missing 24 hrs shrinks substantially when you add fly time in two directions. He would have probably only been at Hogwart a few hours before he had to start flying back to Surrey. I speculated the might fly straight north over the Irish Sea to get from the Cardiff/Godric's Hollow area to Hogwards, and for security, fly that same route on the way back. There is only one small problem with that theory. The Irish Sea is a training ground for the RAF (Royal Air Force). Not likely that Hagrid would want to fly through the RAF fighter jet training area, although he could have still done it if he had flown very low. I think you only need to be under a couple hundred feet to be under typical radar. To a fighter jet a couple hundred feet is almost the same as being on the ground. But to a half giant on a motorcycle, 200 feet is still flying pretty high. (200Ft= roughly a 20 story building) Finally, this question alway leads us back to the so called Missing 24 Hours. Where was Hagrid between the time that he picked up Harry and the time the he delivered Harry to the Dursley's? Some speculate that Hagrid can take care of dragons and three headed dogs but would be incapable of taking care of a 1 year old for a few hours. That leads to the assumption that Hagrid took Harry to someone who had more maternal instincts. The two most common theories, if you do not accept my Hogwarts theory, is the Weasleys or the Longbottoms. Some theorize that the Longbottom were tortured bacause it became know that Harry was in their care, and Death Eaters would then assume that Longbottoms had inside information on the wear abouts of Vaporform-Voldemort. However, some brilliant Brit-o-phil pointed out the any '...bottom' names like Longbottom are likely to come from Northern England, and Neville's reference to being thrown off Blackpool Pier seems to comfirm that belief. So how do you get from Northern England to Surrey by way of Bristol? Although, it is the long route, you could fly straight south from Liverpool or Manchester, then turn left at Bristol and fly to Surrey. Again, this could be justified for security reasons. Now Godric's Hollow; one other possibility is that Godric's Hollow is the equivalent of Diagon Alley in London. I suspect other major cities in the UK also have small magical neighborhoods hidden within them, the same way London has Diagon Alley. However, for the moment, all we can do is speculate, but I think before the series is over, we will get to visit Godric's Hollow, perhaps to visit the graves of Harry's parents. This could also be the new magical place that Harry will visit in the next book. Although, most bets are on him visiting Azaban. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From tahewitt at yahoo.com Wed Jan 8 18:26:40 2003 From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 10:26:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dumbledore In-Reply-To: <1042035959.2160.2554.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030108182640.60315.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49422 Laurasia wrote: > Using a bee analogy for Dumbledore also has other > implications. When > a bee stings, it dies. Relating that in an > allegorical sense to > Dumbledore, it suggests that Dumbledore will "sting" > Voldemort and in > doing so will cause his own destruction. > > I've always liked this analogy because it is so > simply and because > such a noble character like Dumbledore seems exactly > the type to > sacrifice his own life for the greater good. > > Using this analogy it suggests that when Dumbledore > dies it will be > extremely calculated and voluntary resulting > eventually with the > ultimate downfall of Voldemort. (Whether it's Harry > that finishes him > off or not, it's likely Dumbledore will have a large > part to play in > the undoing of Voldemort, IMO) My reply: This idea of Dumbledore sacrificing himself is really interesting to me. Dumbledore's possible death as you describe it reminds me of Obi-Wan Kenobi's death in Star Wars. There seems to be a theme in fantasy-type literature where a parent figure or mentor needs to die in order that others can go on to continue the fight. It's also a way for young charecters to grow up and gain strength from their losses. Another example of this is Buffy's mom dying in Buffy the vampire Slayer. This causes Buffy to grow up and become an adult. I'm also interested in this because it seems to point to either Dumbledore's or Hagrid's death in the 5th book. Losing either of them would force Harry to grow up, albiet in different ways. Of course, it could also mean the death of Mrs. Weasley, but somehow that doesn't seem as likely to me (wistful thinking?). Tyler __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From tahewitt at yahoo.com Wed Jan 8 18:37:37 2003 From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 10:37:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: If Harry was created to fight evil, does that affect parental love? In-Reply-To: <1042035959.2160.2554.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030108183737.59614.qmail@web14202.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49423 jenny from ravenclaw wrote about the theory I posted: While the gleam in Dumbledore's eye has been discussed enough that many of us tear our hair out every time it comes up, your theory is one that I do not remember hearing before. It is an interesting theory, but I can't agree with it for two reasons: one is that I'd hate to think that all of the nice things we've heard about James and Lily as parents aren't so nice after all; that they decided to have Harry not as a child, but almost as an experiment. That Dumbledore might have been involved in such a plan makes it all the more... sinister. The other reason is that it was Lily's love that protected baby Harry from Voldemort to begin with. How much real love would be there if Lily and James had a baby for the sole reason of defeating an evil wizard and not because they loved each other and wanted to start a family? Who knows, though? Maybe James and Lily Potter are not the people we thought they were anyway. JKR has been known to pull the rug out from under us before. I'd be disappointed if she didn't continue to do so (I just don't want this theory to be a rug-pulling event). I reply: While I was thinking this theory through and writing it all down, I kept wondering if this would change the love James and Lily seem to have felt for Harry. Does having a child out of necessity change how a parent would feel about it, or is paternal love stronger than that? Honestly, I dont know. I dont have children, and haven't felt paternal love (from a parents perspective), so I dont really know how that works. But I have felt love of other sorts, and know that it can exist in seemingly impossible situations and between seemingly incompatible people. James and Lily have been painted as warm, loving people so far. This leads me to think that even if Harry were created to defeat evil he would still be loved by his parents. Maybe Harry had already been conceived before they had idea to make him special. Would that change things? Maybe an existing fetus or infant conceived through a pure, honest love and desire for a family was one of the ingredients for the spell. James and Lily might have had to been talked into going along with it. Or, maybe the altruistic creation of a savior for the wizarding community transcends parental love. Which brings me to anther point: a few days ago someone (sorry-I forget who) posted a bit from an interview with JKR wherein she says that if you know biblical stories you could figure out some plot points in the remaining books (Im paraphrasing here). This led to some posts about Harrys possibly dying and being somehow resurrected. But, doesn't the bible also say (Im paraphrasing again) that God will send forth a son to be a savior for the people of earth? Im not suggesting James and Lily are deity, but the sending forth a son part does fit. I guess I didnt see a sinister side to my theory. To me it was more about being freed from evil. It does seem a little creepy, maybe, these ulterior motives bound to what seems like a loving, normal parental instinct. But, if true, it would mean that the persons involved had good intentions. If theres only one way you know for certain will end a powerful, consuming, evil force, youll work towards making that happen,even if it means sacrifice. In making Harry an instrument for fighting evil, James and Lily may have been faced with a sacrifice that they didnt want to make, but knew they HAD to make. If this changes my perception of James and Lily, it only makes them more loving and giving than they seemed before. Of course, I could be full of hot air as well! Tyler (amazed at how much time he can waste thinking about this stuff) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com Wed Jan 8 18:57:48 2003 From: lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com (lindseyharrisst ) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 18:57:48 -0000 Subject: House theories/Neville - also image In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49424 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Garfio " wrote: > JOdel wrote: > > People who wonder why Neville isn't in Hufflepuff have > > overlooked the above considerations. Neville is about as far removed > > from being a "team player" as you can get. He is that rare animal, a > > Gryffandor loner. The Hat had a hardtime placing him, since the > loners > > tend to gravitate into Ravenclaw, and Ravenclaw would have been a > > really bad fit. He isn't up to the eternal politics of Slytherin. > > Gryffandor was the best pick of a poor assortment. For Neville. (Who rather reminds me of Button-Bright. Me: I went to the site that the personaltiy sorter is on, and found that i am a Ravenclaw (which I more or less knew) ie, a rational mastermind (no, i'm not just being big-headed, that's what it said, honestly.! lol) I think Neville will prove worthy of his Gryffindor name - and that the sorting hat may be able to predict how a person will turn out, or see through a memory charm (yes, I'm in that camp.) Bravery does not have to be demonstrative courage, it can be coping with a situation with calm and god grace. It seems that Neville has shown little bravery so far, though I am expecting the memory charm to be broken (though not by Sanpe's teaching methods!) and that we will seee this type of bravery in his dealing with what he comes to remember. I would be disappointed in JK Rowlng if Nevillle was destined to remain the fat kid who's good for a cheap laugh because he's inept. (I also hope Seamus develops beyond this characterisation, though am not so hopeful for him). It was noted (though I think this was exaggerated by the casting for the films)that the stupid or thuggish children are depicted as physically fat and no-one else is. Crabbe and Goyle are included, for Slytherin plus the 2 I've mentioned. It is n't a big deal but still, anyone else a bit annoyed by this? Snapesangel xxx From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Wed Jan 8 19:03:02 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius ) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 19:03:02 -0000 Subject: B-R-U-M-S-T-I-C (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49425 Based on the little-known fact that spelling was Barty Crouch Jr.'s worst subject at Hogwarts B-R-U-M-S-T-I-C (GoF, Chap. 20) To the tune of the Ames' Brothers' R-A-G-G-M-O-P-P Hear the original at: http://www.foxlink.net/~bobnbren/1950s.html#R THE SCENE: The DADA office. MOODY is giving HARRY some "general advice" on how to approach the First Task MOODY (spoken): My second piece of general advice is to use a nice simple spell that will enable you to get what you need. (HARRY looks at him blankly). Come on boy, put them together, it's not that difficult . (music) Yes ? I say S-T S-T-I S-T-I-C Stick S-T-I-C Stick Stick Stick Stick B I say B-R B-R-U B-R-U-M Broom B-R-U-M-S-T-I-C Broomstick Doodlyboo-bah-dyadoo Broomstick Moody'll try to tell you Broomstick Alludin' to hints you should know Broomstick Quidditchin' proves you are a true pro Broomstick Ready-all-set `n' now you will go B-R-U-M-S-T-I-C Broomstick (During the instrumental bridge, the Foe-Glass, Secrecy Sensor, and Sneakoscope all sway in time to the music) I I see a way A way for You to have a A great victory Eminently excellently fly You try Ac-ci Ac-ci-o An Ac-ci-o Spell C-A-L-L Broom broom zoom zoom Are ? I say are you Are you game For our big game Egg P-R-I-Z-E-E-G-G MOODY & HARRY Doomspell Doodlyboo-bah-dyadoo Doomspell Doodlyboo-bah-dyadoo Who'll tell? Doodlyboo-bah-dyadoo Do well Doodlyboo-bah-dyadoo Raise hell Doodlydoo-bah-dyadoo D-O-O-M-S-P-E-L Compel swell spell - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From srsiriusblack at aol.com Wed Jan 8 19:11:04 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 14:11:04 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fleur in 5th book Message-ID: <17a.14d9f687.2b4dd1c8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49426 In a message dated 08/01/2003 08:56:09 Eastern Standard Time, suzie_t666 at hotmail.com writes: > I am > guessing has been cited before as an indicator of Fleur's presence in > the next book. > Finally, the DADA post. If Fleur is the new teacher, it must be > remembered that none have yet survived a year, and the death of the > next one would be a pretty certain way of ensuring that run > continues. Perhaps Arabella Figg could turn out to be both DADA > teacher and a fan of Harrys, but as we know the DADA teacher will > definitely be a woman, and I can't see any of the potential > candidates not being fans of Harry. > The one loose thread in my argument is that I can't see how Fleur's > (or Figg's) deaths would be horrible to write, but then again JK > Rowling has 38 chapters to build those emoitional ties up, and we all > know how quickly she can change our opinions about characters, > through our experience of Scabber's unveiling to be Wormtail. > > So, Fleur to die, what do we think? Or if you've discussed it > already say so and I'll read that post. > > Just a personal thought... I don't see Fleur as the new DADA professor at all. Dumbledore, especially with Voldemort returning to power will want to hire someone with practical experience and most likely further training that just what is learned in the magical schools. Fleur did not establish herself in GoF as particularly gifted in the knowledge and uses of DADA... But the thought has occurred to me... is love on the horizon for Snape? -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Jan 8 19:26:35 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 19:26:35 -0000 Subject: Potters' House Destroyed (was)Re: Voldie's old body In-Reply-To: <20030108144707.98283.qmail@web14612.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49427 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Angela Evans wrote: > > > So the discussion goes, why was the Potter's house destroyed? > > ...edited... > > ANGELA bboy_mn: This idea that the house was destroyed is not a concrete as it may seem. There is enough evidence for us to know that the house was damaged, but how damaged, I don't think is crytal clear. I'm sure some will argue with that since terms like destroyed, and ruins are used to describe the house, it must be pretty bad. But for a house to be destroyed or ruined all that has to happen is a supporting wall has to be damaged beyond repair. Even I will admit that my vision upon reading about the Potters house, is that it was virtually leveled; like a bomb, earthquake and tornado all hitting it at once. But we really don't know how extensive the damage was. The house could have still been standing. Maybe only an upstairs exterior wall was blown out. Maybe the roof just caved it. These could all be by some definition represented as a destroyed house. It's conceivable that the house is still there and could possibly be repaired, and Harry might even live or take refuge there someday. Of course, I can no more prove that it was NOT leveled than I can prove that it was leveled. But I'm sure we can all agree that it had some significant noticable structural damage. Just a thought. bboy_mn From voldemort at tut.by Wed Jan 8 17:29:20 2003 From: voldemort at tut.by (Alexander) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 19:29:20 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort a Puppet? In-Reply-To: <012f01c2b6f7$73501280$23560043@hppav> References: <012f01c2b6f7$73501280$23560043@hppav> Message-ID: <381669267.20030108192920@tut.by> No: HPFGUIDX 49428 Greetings! > Eric wrote: EO> It occurs to me, considering the character of Cornelius EO> Fudge, that Voldemort himself might be no more than a EO> puppet---manipulated by someone (high-ranking followers EO> making suggestions in ways that ensure that he'll likely EO> take them, and selectively feeding him information) to EO> ensure the domination of the British wizarding world by EO> others---and that Cornelius Fudge might well be one of EO> the puppet-masters. EO> (long text skipped) EO> Wouldn't it be an interesting twist to have Harry face EO> down and destroy the evil Dark Lord---and then find out EO> that the real enemy was never Voldemort, but the people EO> who more-or-less created him and turned him loose on the EO> WW? _Harry Potter and the Magical Illuminati,_ anyone? Despite my general attraction to various conspiracy theories, I must admit this one is absolutely impossible. First, as you have admitted yourself, Voldemort is far from stupid and controllable. What directly follows is that by now he would know about this plot already, or at least suspected something. You can trick one man for long time, or many people for short time, but you cannot trick everyone forever. If not Voldemort, then other mages would become aware of something "behind the screens". At least rumours would leak - and we see none of them. Masons were a *very* secretive organization - but how long did their existence remain unknown? Hardly several years, and probably less. Another assumption behind this theory is that there exists a tight-knit group of high-ranked mages, united with common long-term goal, and that *everyone* of those mages puts that goal above any and all personal goals. And of course we must assume that during 11 years of Voldemort's Reign all of those Illuminati have remained faithful to the goal, none got dissatisfied, etc. Can you imagine Lucius Malfoy to posess such qualities? I cannot. Actually, I can see nobody in WW who would posess such qualities and who would not be already on Dumbledore's side. So sorry, but I can only believe in conspiracy if there's Dumbledore behind it, not Fudge. And conspirating Dumbledore somehow doesn't hit the strings in my soul either. It's just too out of character for him. Sincerely yours, Alexander Lomski, Gryffindor/Slytherin crossbreed, always happy to throw weird ideas into community. ----- "Nice toffees", said Dudley and swung his tongue over the shoulder. From gandharvika at hotmail.com Wed Jan 8 20:11:22 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 20:11:22 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Oh! Harry...and Dobby Road Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49429 Oh! Harry (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Oh! Darling_ by the Beatles) A Midi is here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle17.html The Scene: The Shrieking Shack...Sirius and Lupin have forced Peter out of his Animagi form. Fearful, Peter pleads for his life.... Peter: Oh Harry, please believe me I never meant to do wrong Believe me when I tell you What else could I have done? Oh Harry, please have mercy My life is now in peril You look just like your father James wouldn't have wanted me killed Sirius: Oh how dare you talk about James in front of him When you sold out his parents that night Oh how dare you speak to Harry in that way When you know you're the reason they died Peter: Oh Harry, please have mercy You don't really understand The Dark Lord he had weapons You can't even imagine Believe me Harry Sirius: Oh how dare you say that Voldemort was forcing you I don't want to hear any more of your lies For a whole year before James and Lil were killed You'd been passing information as a spy Peter: Oh Harry, please believe me I'm down here on my knees (believe me Harry...) Listen to me begging Ooooooo! Please don't let them kill me -Gail B. ***************************************************** Woo Hoo! Exciting news! Well, it's exciting for me... I'm pleased to announce that with the completion of this filk above, we have now filked the entire Beatles album, _Abby Road_! This is way cool because this is the first time a whole album has been Potter-ized! And now...without further ado, may I introduce to you... _Dobby Road_ *SIDE 1* _Come Together_ to the tune _Come Together_ (by Gail B.) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/43552 _Something (In The Stuff She Brewed)_ to the tune of -Something_ (by Pippin) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/36468 _Riddle's Giant Basilisk_ to the tune of _Maxwell's Silver Hammer_ (by Pippin) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/45905 _Oh! Harry_ to the tune of Oh! Darling_ (by Gail B.) (Above) _Professor Sprout's Greenhouse_ to the tune of _Octopus's Garden_ (by Gail B.) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/46120 _Lockhart's a Fool (He's So Smarmy)_ to the tune of _I want You (She's So Heavy)_ (by Gail B.) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/46309 *SIDE 2* The lyrics to Side 2 can be found here (unless otherwise noted): http://home.att.net/~coriolan/dobby-road.htm _Victor Krum_ to the tune of _Here Comes The Sun_ (by Lilac) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/49338 _Because_ to the tune of _Because_ (by Lilac) _Harry Potter Don't Be Angry_ to the tune of _You Never Give Me Your Money_ (by Lilac) _Underage Wizard_ to the tune of _Sun King_ (by Lilac) _Mean Mr. Dursley_ to the tune of _Mean Mr. Mustard_ by (Gail B.) _Dursley Gets Mad_ to the tune of _Polythene Pam_ by (Gail B.) _He Escaped Through The Bedroom Window_ (by Gail B.) *AND* He Came in Through The Hallway Painting_ (by Mariner) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/46096 to the tune of _She Came In Through The Bedroom Window_ _Golden Snitches_ to the tune of _Golden Slumbers_ (by Gail B.) That Bludger Sure Had Your Name (by Lilac) *AND* Malfoy Estate (by CMC) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/46633 to the tune of _Carry that Weight_ _The End_ to the tune of _The End_ (by Lilac) _Hermione / Ron's Sister_ to the tune of _Her Majesty_ (by Lilac) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/46366 Our next album....Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band...anybody out there like to help? Let me know, eh? I'd love it! -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From kewiromeo at aol.com Wed Jan 8 19:47:15 2003 From: kewiromeo at aol.com (kewiromeo at aol.com) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 14:47:15 EST Subject: Significance of Dumbledore's name Message-ID: <63.16b7957d.2b4dda43@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49430 Tyler wrote: >I suggest that the name Dumbledore has meaning. >Dumbledore is old English for bumblebee. What does a >bumblebee do? Pollinate. In its search for nectar, a >bumblebee spreads pollen, fertilising flowers (in "The >Botany of Desire", author Michael Pollen refers to >bees as 'flying penises'). Dumbledore could have been >the one who cast the spell, or gathered ingredients, >or otherwise helped Lily and James 'pollinate' their >special creation. JKR has apparently claimed that she >just liked the word Dumbledore, but we wouldn't >expect her to divulge a clue that large, would we? >One more small tidbit about bumblebees-they are >solitary, they don't hive like other bees. Sounds a >little like Dumbledore, doesn't it? ~<(Laurasia)>~ Wrote: Using a bee analogy for Dumbledore also has other implications. When a bee stings, it dies. Relating that in an allegorical sense to Dumbledore, it suggests that Dumbledore will "sting" Voldemort and in doing so will cause his own destruction. I've always liked this analogy because it is so simply and because such a noble character like Dumbledore seems exactly the type to sacrifice his own life for the greater good. Using this analogy it suggests that when Dumbledore dies it will be extremely calculated and voluntary resulting eventually with the ultimate downfall of Voldemort. (Whether it's Harry that finishes him off or not, it's likely Dumbledore will have a large part to play in the undoing of Voldemort, IMO) (Just one small note: According to my research on bumblebees, their sting isn't barbed, like honeybees, so they can sting more than once. Comparing Dumbledore to a bee that dies when it stings when his name is derived from one that *doesn't*, doesn't really strike me as that much of an issue because I'm talking in a symbolic sense. Bee enthusiasts, however, might disagree ;D ) Now Me: The only other mood we associate Dumbledore besides pure radiating energy is a nice passive pleasant mood. Look at all of the passwords to his Headmaster Quarters. At the end of PoA, with the Buckbeak trial, he was seemingly pleasant when everything was going wrong for the ministry. I wouldn't have been surprised if JKR wanted to simply call him Bumblebee in the first place. And not that I am a bee expert, but most flying insects don't bother you or attack until you attack them, defense mechanism. It is also nice to know that fact about bumblebees, so that doesn't mean he has to sacrifice himself. I like Dumbledore. I like bumblebees. You simply are supposed to feel warm towards them. Tzvi of Brooklyn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jan 8 21:36:41 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 21:36:41 -0000 Subject: Potter Geography In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49431 Steve:"Now Godric's Hollow; one other possibility is that Godric's Hollow is the equivalent of Diagon Alley in London. I suspect other major cities in the UK also have small magical neighborhoods hidden within them, the same way London has Diagon Alley. However, for the moment, all we can do is speculate, but I think before the series is over, we will get to visit Godric's Hollow, perhaps to visit the graves of Harry's parents." Thanks for this theory, which I hadn't considered. It's 100% plausible, but yes, it is speculation. I didn't think that there was anything in Godric's Hollow for Harry anymore; but if there is a magical neighborhood, there may be. Where do wizards bury their dead? Could Lily and James be in Godric's Hollow, or the War Veterans' Cemetery at Hogwarts, or in catacombs underneath the castle? One thing that gives credence to the magical neighborhood idea: If the Potter's house was destroyed, how come Harry didn't end up in a Muggle hospital/foster home? A magical neighborhood might explain it. For example, if the Burrow caught fire, wouldn't the Muggle neighbors notice, or is the Burrow unplottable? Actually, it can't be, since Muggle taxi drivers found it in PoA. The point is that if the house at Godric's Hollow was destroyed, why didn't it attract the attention of the Muggle fire brigades? Steve:"This could also be the new magical place that Harry will visit in the next book. Although, most bets are on him visiting Azaban." Me, too. There's a lot that could be going on at Azkaban that would cause Harry to go there, including getting locked up there himself. We will just have to see. From amani at charter.net Wed Jan 8 21:25:08 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 16:25:08 -0500 Subject: Fleur in 5th book References: Message-ID: <002901c2b75c$6bbcba40$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49432 Suze: >Forgive my potential foolery in this, my first post, as I'm not >certain as to what the consensus is on the issue, but what is thought >to be the role, if any, of Fleur Delacour in the 5th book? And if >she does indeed turn out to be the 5th DADA teacher, what do people >think of the possibility of her being the second Triwizard champion >to die in as many books? > >Her final appearence in GoF provides, I think, enough canonical >evidence to put her in the frame; >"We will see each uzzer again, I 'ope" shows that she is fan of >Harry, as well as her gratitude after he "saved" Gabrielle, and "I >am 'oping to get a job 'ere, to improve my Eenglish" is what I am >guessing has been cited before as an indicator of Fleur's presence in >the next book. I /really/ dislike the theory that Fleur is going to be the new DADA teacher. The idea of someone graduating and going on to a full-fledged teaching job sets off MAJOR qualms in me, despite the fact that there isn't a wizard university. I still should think a person would have to be older and more qualified for the job. Fleur couldn't even handle grindylows. Not to say that we won't be seeing her again, especially since she said she wanted to return. But I'd really be disappointed to see her in the DADA position. Suze: >The one loose thread in my argument is that I can't see how Fleur's >(or Figg's) deaths would be horrible to write, but then again JK >Rowling has 38 chapters to build those emotional ties up, and we all >know how quickly she can change our opinions about characters, >through our experience of Scabber's unveiling to be Wormtail. Do note that she said horrible to /write/, not horrible to /read/. J.K. Rowling also said she died while writing Cedric's death, while many (if not most) people couldn't really care, because his character had not been sufficiantly explored. But from a writing perspective, it's very different. Rowling knows so much more about all the characters than we do and she obviously feels it's very hard killing someone that she has created. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jan 8 22:22:01 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 22:22:01 -0000 Subject: Did Peter really kill those Muggles + did he torture Bertha? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49433 Angela Evans wrote: > OK, here is where it gets interesting for me. Black says that the reason PP has been hiding all these years is because he fears the DEs who blame him for LV's downfall, because LV dissapeared while following PP's info. I find this a little weak. Black DOES say that he personally heard DEs in Azkaban calling PP a traitor, but still. I think PP could have argued his case to the DEs. << Pettigrew may have believed that killing him was part of Voldemort's orginal plan. Fudge speaks as though there was evidence that Sirius planned to declare himself a Voldemort supporter at the time of the Potter's deaths. If so, it can only have been planted in advance. In any case, once the Potters were eliminated, LV would have no further use for Peter. And Peter is definitely bright enough to figure that out. If the site of the showdown between Sirius and Peter was chosen in advance, then one or more of Voldemort's supporters could have been there, making sure Peter did what he was supposed to do. But Pettigrew faked his own death before his erstwhile co-conspirators could eliminate him. It's hard to apply Newtonian physics to magical problems, but if the evidence of the blast pointed to a gas explosion as the Muggle investigators believed, then I suppose that what Peter or his accomplices did was touch off an explosion in the gas main *under* the street. Peter immediately switched to rat form, was blown upwards but not killed due to his magical resilience and his reduced mass, and then fell back into the sewer with his rat friends. It makes the problem much simpler if Peter gave the severed finger in advance to someone else to plant on the scene. How else could he be sure it would be found? Accio! doesn't seem to work on bodies. It gets even more interesting if we assume that Peter believes that one of his two old friends in the Shrieking Shack is also a DE, but doesn't know which one it is. After all, Voldemort could have double-crossed Sirius, too. I keep wondering how Voldemort learned that Peter was called Wormtail. It doesn't seem the sort of alias that Peter would choose for himself, now does it? Heidi said: >> Well, in a clinical sense it could be conjecture for sirius to say that but if he saw peter put the wand behind his back, or was at an angle such that he could still see peter's arm, wand in hand, or if he could even see the tip or handle of the wand behind peter, it wouldn't be conjecture. It would be something he really did see << Peter was fat. I don't think it was easy to see around him. But it might be that Peter had *two* wands--his own, which he pointed at Sirius, and Voldemort's, which he held behind him and aimed at the ground. Of course we know that Voldemort's wand wasn't used, because there was no echo, but Sirius wouldn't know that. Anakin said: >>Who tortured Bertha? According to Voldemort's account, Peter made him the fragil body _after_ Bertha was tortured. But if Voldemort was vapor, he couldn't have used any magical, or presumably physical means to extract information from Bertha. Peter, however, does not strike me as an expert torturer. Do you think Voldemort's time line is inaccurate? If so, would it be a flint, or intentional? Could he have posessed Peter for a short time and used Peter's body to torture Bertha? Or did Peter actually do the torturing? << Good catch! Voldemort says that Peter was "the able-bodied servant I needed." That could mean that he had another servant who wasn't able-bodied. Perhaps he had a servant who could use a wand, but due to his disability was unsuitable for possession or donation of flesh, and who would be unable to tend to uglybaby!Voldemort. A werewolf, perhaps? Pippin From Malady579 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 8 23:41:24 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody ) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 23:41:24 -0000 Subject: Did Peter kill Muggles and nicknames In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49434 Pippin wrote: > It's hard to apply Newtonian physics to magical problems, Completely agree. > but if > the evidence of the blast pointed to a gas explosion as the > Muggle investigators believed, then I suppose that what Peter or > his accomplices did was touch off an explosion in the gas main > *under* the street. Eh...I cannot say it is impossible, but we are talking about muggle logic here. We know they "don' look properly" and "never notice nuffink." (PoA, Ch 3) Muggles would search for a logical answer to what happened. Telling the public it was "magic" will cause riots. When a big explosion happens that destroys the street and kills 13 people, well it needs three criteria to calm the curious masses. Domestic problem not involving foreign invasion, a situation that could reasonably happen, and something that just randomly occurs. Or better yet, blame a guy that is there so he can take the blame and hatred of the people. So Pippin, yes, while someone could have been under the street to cause the explosion to happen at the precise time and happen in the right way *not* to kill Peter and Sirius, how can you manipulate gas explosions to do that? I do like the planted finger idea. Maybe, Peter dropped it from out his pocket before he changed and drug it with his mouth to the sidelines where a muggle officer would find it looking for forensics. Well, that would take time, but in the confusion, would anyone notice a rat with a severed finger in its mouth? Gee, that is a lovely picture. Sorry. Pippin again: > I keep wondering how > Voldemort learned that Peter was called Wormtail. It doesn't > seem the sort of alias that Peter would choose for himself, now > does it? Neither is the nickname Malady. But if it is bestowed with love, as Peter's seems to be by the marauders, then I bet he found it rather nice. Possibly the only nickname he has ever had. Plus, guys (and girls for that matter) often give the cruelest or crudest nicknames out of the sheer contradiction of it. Like calling a fat guy Tiny. The name Wormtail reminds Peter of probably the best times of his life. You know, the time before he betrayed everyone. Hmm, so maybe that nickname does have some pain to it now, but before all that when he asked Voldemort to call him that, I bet he liked the irony of it. Melody (given her email nickname by a favorite teacher) From StarHermione86 at cs.com Thu Jan 9 00:01:05 2003 From: StarHermione86 at cs.com (StarHermione86 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 19:01:05 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry a Seer? Message-ID: <140.7421ad7.2b4e15c1@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49435 Um, this is probably a crackpot theory without any credibility, but bear with me. Has anyone ever explored the possibility that Harry is a seer and HE doesn't know it? His scar hurts when Voldemort is nearby or murderous, but that doesn't explain why he is able to see Voldemort's actions in his dreams. I believe that Harry has also had non-Voldemort related dream-visions. I'm not too clear on where in the book exactly and I don't have it handy, but in PoA didn't Harry have a dream where he was following a white galloping figure? (aka prongs) That was before Harry knew anything about his fathers animagus and he hadn't seen his patronus at that point either. If anyone wants to jump in with handy facts to either help prove or disprove this theory it would be very appreciated. Sheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jferer at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 00:08:03 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 00:08:03 -0000 Subject: Fleur in 5th book In-Reply-To: <17a.14d9f687.2b4dd1c8@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49436 Snuffles:"I don't see Fleur as the new DADA professor at all. Dumbledore, especially with Voldemort returning to power will want to hire someone with practical experience and most likely further training that just what is learned in the magical schools. Fleur did not establish herself in GoF as particularly gifted in the knowledge and uses of DADA..." No doubt. What is there that qualifies her for DADA, unless preventing split ends counts? She was the weakest performer in the Triwizard Tournament. You're right, DADA is getting to be really serious stuff these days. Arabella Figg? Unless the teacher is someone we never knew, she's the most likely. Snuffles:"But the thought has occurred to me... is love on the horizon for Snape?" With FLEUR? Please tell me you didn't mean Fleur. That's an image I don't even *want*. Arabella Figg? Unless the teacher is someone we never knew, she's the most likely. From srsiriusblack at aol.com Thu Jan 9 00:16:14 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 19:16:14 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fleur in 5th book Message-ID: <7d.3366b7ad.2b4e194e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49437 In a message dated 08/01/2003 19:11:02 Eastern Standard Time, jferer at yahoo.com writes: > Snuffles:"But the thought has occurred to me... is love on the > horizon for Snape?" > > With FLEUR? Please tell me you didn't mean Fleur. That's an image I > don't even *want*. > > Arabella Figg? Unless the teacher is someone we never knew, she's > the most likely. Oh no!!! NOT with Fleur, lol! ( I would rather eat glass than read about that) I'm just thinking it is possible that a female DADA professor might put a new sway in Snape's walk. ( I don't see Mrs. Figg as the teacher, mind) But, I *could* see Snape, for the first time, as not hating the DADA professor. She might be just the antedote to Snape's gruffness. -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jferer at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 00:20:36 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 00:20:36 -0000 Subject: Harry a Seer? In-Reply-To: <140.7421ad7.2b4e15c1@cs.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49438 Sheryl:"Um, this is probably a crackpot theory without any credibility, but bear with me. Has anyone ever explored the possibility that Harry is a seer and HE doesn't know it?" No, this is not a crackpot theory. Obviously, *something's* going on with Harry. He has foreseen things and seen things as they were happening (clairvoyance). That sure sounds like he's a Seer. OTOH, there's another explanation possible. Harry is bound to Voldemort by the part of Voldemort left with Harry after the curse; that's why Harry is a Parselmouth, and why he's picked up some of Voldemort's qualities. It could be he only sees things connected with Voldemort, who's connected with him. I wouldn't consider Harry a full Seer if that's the case, only a sometime Seer. Some people have speculated Ron could be a seer. What if the bullfeathers Ron comes up with to placate Trelawney start coming up true? He'd be the opposite of Trelawney - someone who doesn't believe a word of what he's saying, but it turns out true. It would be sort of reverse Cassandra complex. Jim Ferer From suzchiles at pobox.com Thu Jan 9 00:25:42 2003 From: suzchiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 16:25:42 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry a Seer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49439 Jim noted: > Some people have speculated Ron could be a seer. What if the > bullfeathers Ron comes up with to placate Trelawney start coming up > true? He'd be the opposite of Trelawney - someone who doesn't > believe a word of what he's saying, but it turns out true. It would > be sort of reverse Cassandra complex. I think Ron is a seer, as are Fred and George. Their bet in GoF for Ireland to win, but for Bulgaria to get the snitch, could quite possibly be the result of a premonition. While I believe that F&G are definitely risk-takers, I don't think they'd bet every cent they had between them if they didn't have some inkling. However, I don't think either Ron, Fred, or George are aware that the are seers. Should be interesting to watch in future books. Suzanne From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Thu Jan 9 00:32:41 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 19:32:41 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fleur in 5th book Message-ID: <15e.19d003b5.2b4e1d29@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49440 In a message dated 1/8/03 2:14:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, srsiriusblack at aol.com writes: > But the thought has occurred to me... is love on the horizon for Snape? No no no no no no no!!!!! I *cannot* see Snape with *gulps* Fleur. She's just too....sexual. She seems far too high maintenance for Snape, she was complaing about how the food was going to make her fat. I think Snape would AK her just as soon as not. Although, I feel she *would* make a great spy for the Light Side. As we saw at the World Cup (for all we know, Fleur was in the trees!) and when she was trying to get Cedric to invite her to the Ball, she is a wicked seductress. I personally feel that in the New Reign of Terror, you are going to have to be careful who you trust. Fleur would be a perfect spy because, in general, men think with their crotch. Not saying all men, but I have a feeling Lucius would gladly .... okay, stopping now. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 00:48:03 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 16:48:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Potter Geography In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030109004803.45898.qmail@web40509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49441 IIRC, Godric's Hollow is mentioned in Quidditch Through the Ages. I don't have that book and I don't remember what exactly was said about it except that the inventor of the Snitch lived there, but maybe the place was called a village or a town? I guess I need the book... Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From skelkins at attbi.com Thu Jan 9 00:56:18 2003 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 ) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 00:56:18 -0000 Subject: WW justice was re I don't expect a complete bloodbath and a Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49442 Sirius' Trial (or lack thereof): Maria wondered if we should take Sirius' claim that he never received a trial literally. Ali replied: > I do believe that Sirius did not have a trial, and that his word > can be taken literally. > > In PoA, Dumbledore tells Harry and Hermione: > > "I myself gave evidence to the Minstry that Sirius had been the > Potters' Secret-Keeper". P.287 UK Hardback edition > > That phrasing is not conclusive evidence that Dumbledore testified > in a trial, as he could have been giving evidence that was then > never acted upon. I agree. It is also very similar to the phrasing that Dumbledore uses at Karkaroff's hearing to refer to his vouching for Snape: "I have given evidence already on this matter." Karkaroff's hearing is not a trial. No jury is present, nor do we see any members of the public or the press in the room, unlike the trials of Bagman and the Pensieve Four. It would seem to be some sort of special tribunal, held in camera. Crouch refers to it as a "council" and specifies that it was "by *this* council" (emphasis mine) that Snape was also cleared. I assume that both Sirius' case and Snape's were discussed by that smaller council, but that neither of them ever stood trial. In fact, it has always somewhat surprised me that Sirius doesn't harbor more bitterness towards Dumbledore for having exerted so little apparent effort on his behalf. Frankly, I think that I'd feel a mite bit grudgy about that, if I were Sirius Black. Wizarding Conceptions of Human Rights: Maria went on to say: > Besides, I don't see this use of truth potions as morally > acceptable. We don't know anything about the WW Constitution, > but I assume it contains all the basic civil rights, which > IMHO should prohibit the use of truth potions in trials. Well, I agree with your evaluation of the moral rectitude of the use of truth potions, but (leaving aside the question of whether or not wizarding UK even *has* a constitution, which I rather assume that it does not), I see no reason to believe that the wizarding world would share our scruples on this point. After all, the use of the dementors as prison guards is *far* more morally reprehensible than the use of truth potions, IMO. In fact, under the guidelines currently adopted by the EU, as well as by the Human Rights Commission, it would technically qualify as torture, which is...er, well, a rather *serious* human rights violation, let us just say. Yet Dumbledore's belief that use of the dementors is unacceptable seems to be dismissed as eccentricity by both Fudge and Moody, and Dumbledore himself does not phrase his objections to the practice in terms of our Muggle conception of human rights at all. Ali wrote: > I don't know that it would be safe to assume that the WW has a > constitution or whether it has what we think of as basic civil > rights. . . . Well, from the nature of Sirius' account of Crouch's regime, I think that it is safe to assume that the WW does at least more or less share our *conception* of civil rights. Sirius speaks of Crouch's measures as if they represented a suspension of civil liberties that members of the WW ordinarily do view as something akin to "rights of citizenship." What precisely the WW considers "normal" civil liberties, however, or even "basic human rights," is unclear. My assumption based on the society as it is presented in the canon is that the WW likely has considerably fewer protections placed on civil liberties than its muggle analogue does, and may well not adhere to *precisely* the same conception of "rights" that we do, but that it is nonetheless more or less culturally congruent with Muggle UK -- in other words, that it is less scrupulous/protective, rather than utterly culturally distinct. The designation of the Unforgivable Curses as the spells carrying the most severe penalty under law, for example, as well as the specification of both Memory Charms and veritaserum as types of magic restricted or controlled by the government, does imply to my mind that the WW's understanding of "human rights" is based in the same fundamental principles as our own. Ali: > Sirius tells us that he was not the only person > flung into Azkaban without a trial. This suggests the suspension > of Habeas Corpus on at least a temporary basis. This is perhaps > not dissimilar to the use of internment during wartime, but it > is the suspension of a basic human right. Yes. It would seem that Crouch suspended Habeas Corpus, but that before he did so, it did exist as a fundamental civil right within the wizarding world. When Sirius tells the Trio that he was imprisoned without benefit of trial, not only the Muggle-raised Hermione and Harry, but also the Muggle-ignorant Ron, respond with shock and amazement. On this subject, though, one of the more disturbing of the many hints the text gives us that the WW's judicial system is deeply flawed, to my mind, is not anything from GoF, but rather, Hagrid's imprisonment in CoS. Unlike the Pensieve scenes, Sirius' conviction without trial, or the authorization of the Dementor's Kiss to be used on him after his escape from prison, Hagrid's "protective custody" is happening in the current day, not in a time of war, and not in regard to someone already condemned (justly or not) to life imprisonment for a violent crime. The implication as I read it is that the WW *does* have a conception of right of Habeas Corpus, that Crouch suspended it in response to the crisis of Voldemort's rise, but that it was never reinstated as a legal necessity even after the crisis had passed. Most disturbing, that. On a number of levels. Elkins who can get just a little bit *paranoid* on the subject of habeas corpus. From kristen at sanderson-web.com Thu Jan 9 01:36:10 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (gkjpo ) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 01:36:10 -0000 Subject: Barty Crouch Jr. the Loyal Supporter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49444 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "durant_a2002 " wrote: > However, when Harry sees Crouch Jr. in the Pensieve, he sees a man > who, at that point would clearly be willing to renounce Voldemort and > all the dark magic if it meant that he didn't have to go to Azkaban. > It was the other three who were with him who were the truly loyal > ones. Crouch was begging his father for forgiveness. > > "durant" It could be interpreted that way, or it could be interpreted as a young punk attempting to use his high connections to get out of a prison sentence. After all, it did work since Crouch was convinced to trade his wife for his son. Just a thought Kristen From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 01:45:04 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 17:45:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Against Evil!Lupin theory (Was Re: Lupin's Shiver...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030109014504.17448.qmail@web40506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49445 Pippin wrote: It [the shiver] might mean that Ever So Evil Lupin is under strict orders from Voldemort to keep Harry alive. See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39362 message #39362 for the Evil Lupin theory. I write: OK, I read that message... twice. I know it was a while ago, but since I love Lupin, I can't help but try to defend him, even though my efforts are weak. Right... The canon supporting Evil!Lupin theory: (I quote message # 39362) "Come to think of it, Crouch!Moody does *exactly* what Lupin did to win Harry's confidence. Humiliate one of his enemies, like Snape or Draco (Boggart/ferret) Befriend Neville ( Boggart/herbology book) Use Voldemort's name. Crouch!Moody only uses it once, IIRC. But it's important, because *we* have to know that Voldemort's servants can use it if they wish. Teach him a really neat dark arts fighting technique (patronus, imperius resistance) Show him a little undeserved favoritism (rooting for Gryffindor, help with the First Task) Get him out of a tight spot with Snape (Snape's Grudge/Egg and the Eye)" This seems to me to be the core of the Evil!Lupin theory, since the rest of it if mostly speculation: "JKR wouldn't create two characters with the same narrative function. Only one of them can be the scapegoat--the other is guilty, guilty, guilty. It can't be Sirius. Everybody in the wizarding world thinks he dunnit. It's Harry's quest to clear his name. But that leaves-- Yup. Lupin is ever so evil." (message # 39362) First off, I wouldn't say that we know all about JKR to make assumptions about what she would or wouldn't do. Secondly, Lupin and Sirius *don't* have the same narrative function. Yes, they are James' friends, but Ron and Hr are Harry's friends too... Both of them couldn't be traitors - so how can we say that 2 of James' friends are traitors? (Am I making sense? L and S are sooo different, and they play such different roles in the story. BTW, don't Fred and George have the same narrative function? Could one of them be a traitor? ) The Shrieking Shack scenario described in the message doesn't contradict the facts we know from the story, but the story doesn't contradict itself either. OK, now to the defense of Lupin part. Yes, Lupin and Moony do roughly the same things (listed above). But Moody does them *because a good guy would do them.* Lupin, being a good guy, does them! There are logical explanations of each of them. 1. Humiliation of enemy (Snape/Draco): I don't think Lupin was humiliating Snape. Telling Neville to fight the boggart by mentally dressing Snape in his grandmother's clothes was an effective way of fighting the boggart. While Lupin is obviously amused to see his school foe in a dress, it was the only way to act. 2. Befriend Neville. Lupin doesn't befriend Neville, he teaches him to fight the boggart. Of course, L is kind to him, but because L *is* kind. It's his personality trait. 3. Use Voldemort's name: Well, Sirius uses it too, and he isn't evil. 4. Teaching of advanced magic: Harry asked to Lupin to teach him to fight dementors, and Lupin did it, because *He Is Nice and cares about Harry.* Lupin doesn't want Harry fainting or falling off him broom all the time. 5 & 6 Undeserved favoritism & tight spot with Snape: Liking a person and wanting to help him when he is in trouble is something a good guy would do... even if a good teacher (maybe) wouldn't. But, then again, Hogwarts doesn't seem too many good teachers in every sense of the word. There's Dumbledore (yes, he isn't a teacher strictly speaking, but being the headmaster, he is supposed to set an example), who is wonderful and whom I love, obviously favors Gryffindor in the first two books when he awards them just enough points for them to get the House Cup. There's Snape, who's an excellent Potions Master, but whose *teaching* abilities are... ummm... bad... Trelawney, who's a fraud; scared, stuttoring Professor Quirrell and equally evil Crouch (so what if DD disn't know it was him); Lockhart... Even Hagrid, who means well and loves his subject, doesn't exactly fit the bill of good teacher. We don't know much about Prof. Sprout (I'm inclined to think she's OK), and even McGonnagall, who is fair and strict and knowledgeable, has a fault - she doesn't emotionally "bond" with her students, if I may use the word. I hope I didn't forget anyone... that would be embarassing. Lupin seems to me a Great Teacher, the best one at Hogwarts (that we know of). I guess I kind of strayed from what I was talking about originally. What I actually wanted to say was: Fake!Moody does the same things as Lupin (good guy things) because he is a bad guy and he needs to show he is a good guy. Real!Moody, a good guy (I think that's certain :) ), would do the same things, which is why Fake!Moody does them. Also, I know there have been replies to message 39362. I'm sorry, I haven't read them for lack of time, so pardon me if I tread on anyone's toes with my comments. I mean well, really I do. :) Regards, Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 02:15:38 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 18:15:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: WW justice was re I don't expect a complete bloodbath and a Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030109021538.88090.qmail@web40503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49446 I wrote: > Besides, I don't see this use of truth potions as morally > acceptable. We don't know anything about the WW Constitution, > but I assume it contains all the basic civil rights, which > IMHO should prohibit the use of truth potions in trials. Elkins replied: After all, the use of the dementors as prison guards is *far* more morally reprehensible than the use of truth potions, IMO. In fact, under the guidelines currently adopted by the EU, as well as by the Human Rights Commission, it would technically qualify as torture, which is...er, well, a rather *serious* human rights violation, let us just say. Yet Dumbledore's belief that use of the dementors is unacceptable seems to be dismissed as eccentricity by both Fudge and Moody, and Dumbledore himself does not phrase his objections to the practice in terms of our Muggle conception of human rights at all. Me: I agree with you that the use of dementors qualifies as torture, but we don't know if anything of anyone else can constrain prisoners. IMO it depends on the nature of spell-casting, i.e whether you can do it without a wand. If you can't cast good spells without one, like Rowling says, then a wizard convict would be equal to a Muggle convict, and dementors are really unnecessary. But if Rowling is wrong (I'm not getting into a canon/not canon debate here), maybe there really isn't another way to control the convicts. I am by no means defending this jail system, just giving possible reasons for why it could exist. Actually, this brings me to another idea that I just came up with... Magic is magic, and nobody really knows where it starts and where it ends, so the ability to cast wandless spells is probably not explored enough. OK, Rowling says that you can't cast good spells without wands, but since there obviously are forms of wandless magic like Lily's sacrifice, phoenix tears and all "magical animals magic," we don't know what can happen in extreme circumstances, what powers a wizard could discover in himself. Elkins also said: On this subject, though, one of the more disturbing of the many hints the text gives us that the WW's judicial system is deeply flawed, to my mind, is not anything from GoF, but rather, Hagrid's imprisonment in CoS. Unlike the Pensieve scenes, Sirius' conviction without trial, or the authorization of the Dementor's Kiss to be used on him after his escape from prison, Hagrid's "protective custody" is happening in the current day, not in a time of war, and not in regard to someone already condemned (justly or not) to life imprisonment for a violent crime. I was always really confused on this point. Hagrid didn't even finish school... I see this as proof of Fudge's total incompetence and pitifulness (is that a word?) as well as evidence to support the fact that everything is totally and completely wrong in the WW. Of course, Hagrid is accused of setting a monster on students... Maybe sending people to Azkaban to wait for the trial is standard procedure? It is rather cruel to those who haven't been proven guilty (as well as to those who have been proven guilty), anyway. Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Resqgal911 at msn.com Thu Jan 9 01:34:24 2003 From: Resqgal911 at msn.com (Tammy Bianchi) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 20:34:24 -0500 Subject: Potters' House Destroyed Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49447 ANGELA said: In response to how people were able to assume that LV was gone (when they had no proof that he was dead) within 24 hours of his failed curse, it is a good question. And canon gives us only one concrete reason. When Hagrid tells that Harry that they knew LV was gone because some wizards came "out of trances" , presumably when they were freed from LV's imperius. But could this realization could have happened so quickly? Me: I assumed, after reading GOF that when Voldimort was vaporizied that the mark on the DE's arms became lighter. I suppose it is possible that there were supporters of V that came out of trances, but it seems that the DEs that come back at the end of GOF were not just in trances. Tammy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From deep_midnight337 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 01:35:55 2003 From: deep_midnight337 at yahoo.com (deep_midnight337 ) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 01:35:55 -0000 Subject: Ron a seer?/Harry's tears Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49448 Hi everyone...I've been lurking on the lists for about a week, and I'm finally making my first post! Thanks for all the thought- provoking discussion. Jim Ferer writes: >Some people have speculated Ron could be a seer. What if the >bullfeathers Ron comes up with to placate Trelawney start coming up >true? He'd be the opposite of Trelawney - someone who doesn't >believe a word of what he's saying, but it turns out true. It would >be sort of reverse Cassandra complex. I have actually thought about this... in GoF, when Harry and Ron are making up predictions for their Divination homework, a few of Ron's predictions actually do come true. (I'm sorry for the paraphrasing, but I don't actually have the book right now. Maybe someone could check this for me?) He predicts, for Harry, that "someone he thought was a friend would stab him in the back." which could be Ron's jealousy after Harry's name comes out of the GoF. He also predicts that he will get into a fight, and later he does get into a fight with Harry. Maybe this is just my Ron-Fan side coming out. I think that Ron must have *some* sort of undiscovered talent. Richelle writes: >Yes, it is bad. [Harry] was on edge before GoF, from hearing his >mother's screams and his father's voice. Now with the events in the >graveyard in GoF he is teetering over the edge, so to speak. One more >incident and he probably will break down. But what will that incident >be? I think that book five will be an extremely difficult time for Harry emotionally. The press and most of the WW probably will be against him I really doubt that spending some time in a jar will reform Rita Skeeter, and when Hermione lets her go, she will undoubtedly cause even more trouble. (Which brings me to the question, why would *Hermione* not turn in someone who was breaking the law in such a huge way, and who had attacked her personally? Why not just let the MoM deal with her?) Not to mention the fact that Harry will blame himself for Cedric's death...he's just that type of person. If he does have a breakdown, it will be early in OotP. -Faith From tahewitt at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 01:42:05 2003 From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 17:42:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Avada kedavra-abracadabra In-Reply-To: <1042035959.2160.2554.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030109014205.15304.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49449 I was thinking about the Avada Kedavra curse today, how it sounds like 'cadaver', which is fitting, and also how it sounds like 'abracadabra'. I checked the HP list of names http://www.theninemuses.net/hp/list.html and found this: "Avada kedavra" is an Aramaic phrase that means "may the thing be destroyed." Then, I looked 'abracadabra' up in the Penguin Dictionary of Symbols and read this: "The word derives from the Hebrew 'abreg ad habra' meaning 'strike dead with thy lightning'". This seems even closer to the avada kedavra, what with the flash of green light and all. 'Abracadabra' has symbolic meaning as a protection from evil as well, but it deals with evil vanishing forever from the world never to return, which obviously did not happen in GoF. I don't know where I'm going with this, just found it interesting. Tyler __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From snorth at ucla.edu Thu Jan 9 01:46:42 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 17:46:42 -0800 Subject: Barty Crouch Jr. the Loyal Supporter? References: Message-ID: <000701c2b781$04dc3600$0100a8c0@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 49450 Durant wrote: However, when Harry sees Crouch Jr. in the Pensieve, he sees a man who, at that point would clearly be willing to renounce Voldemort and all the dark magic if it meant that he didn't have to go to Azkaban. It was the other three who were with him who were the truly loyal ones. Crouch was begging his father for forgiveness. Kristen wrote: It could be interpreted that way, or it could be interpreted as a young punk attempting to use his high connections to get out of a prison sentence. After all, it did work since Crouch was convinced to trade his wife for his son. Well, obviously Crouch Jr. is a good actor. He manages to fool a whole lot of people (even Dumbledore) into thinking he's Mad-eye Moody for a school year. Acting like a frightened teenager so he could escape Azkaban and search for his master would be pretty simple in comparison. -Scott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 02:30:30 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 18:30:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fleur - Not DADA, how about Ancient Runes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030109023030.36020.qmail@web40508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49451 Pickle Jimmy wrote:: On the other subject - Her love interest. IMHO it would be easier to write that Fleur was devoured by a hippogriff than to have her fall for Snape... Me: Well noticed!! That would be yucky. Pickle Jimmy again: Lupin (on the other hand) - We like Lupin, it would be wonderful if he could find somebody nice to settle down with. Me again: Good gracious, *no!* We like Lupin (Some of us even lovelovelove Lupin ), and that is exactly why I would never want it to happen. Using your magical beasts comparisons, I'd rather Lupin bit everybody in sight, turning Harry into a werewolf and then commiting suicide because of it than fall in love with Fleur. She seems shallow and rather a little girl - Harry is more mature than she is, being 3 years younger. Of course, she may be wonderful and all that and we just don't know about it, but she IMNSHO does not deserve Lupin, nor would she bear Remus' cross along with him. It's kind of strange, though, that there are no available (nor unavailable) ladies in their thirties in the books. I mean, we have no less then three bachelors (Snape, Lupin and Sirius), and no women to pair them up with. This is sad. :) Regards, Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Thu Jan 9 02:39:27 2003 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 18:39:27 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort a Puppet? In-Reply-To: <012f01c2b6f7$73501280$23560043@hppav> References: <012f01c2b6f7$73501280$23560043@hppav> Message-ID: <114116283479.20030108183927@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49452 Wednesday, January 8, 2003, 1:22:20 AM, Eric Oppen wrote: EO> Wouldn't it be an interesting twist to have Harry face down and destroy the EO> evil Dark Lord---and then find out that the real enemy was never Voldemort, EO> but the people who more-or-less created him and turned him loose on the WW? EO> _Harry Potter and the Magical Illuminati,_ anyone? One gets this image of Harry destroying Voldie, and the first thing that happens next, after an inital sigh of relief, is that he faces death yet again, from someone he thought was a friend. (Could this be foreshadowed by the last scene with Pseudo-Moody in _GoF_?) -- Dave From kathleen at happ.net Thu Jan 9 02:27:38 2003 From: kathleen at happ.net (happybean98 ) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 02:27:38 -0000 Subject: Harry will be accused and locked up in Azkaban Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49453 Greetings, I have a theory/prediction to propose about the central conflict of book five. To my knowledge, it has not been raised in any previous posting. If it has, please bring me up to date. A thread has been posted about Harry being cast under suspicion for causing Cedric's death in GoF. This is understandable due to speculation about his wanting to win the cup, etc. However, I believe this suspicion will only be the tip of the iceberg when Harry is put on trial by the MoM. I will begin with HPandSS. When Harry confronts Voldemort, Voldemort tries to win him over by promising the return of his parents. Harry refuses Voldemort....but does anyone else witness it? The only people present are Voldemort, Quirrel,(who dies), and Harry. Ron and Hermione, through a series of plot twistings, have been left behind. Harry faces Voldemort alone. We the readers are privy to his triumph over evil, but who else could come to his defense if his loyalties were called into question? Of course Dumbledore believes him, but he has only Harry's word that Voldemort was thwarted by Harry. Next, in CoS, Voldemort becomes more powerful and is able to nearly kill several students through the diary/basilisk. To an outsider, it would seem that Voldemort has grown more powerful, not weaker, after his encounter with Harry in Book one. Malfoy sees Harry with the diary at one point. Wouldn't he rather blame Harry for planting it in Ginny's hands as opposed to believing that his own father planted it? Once again, Harry faces Voldemort in the Chamber of Secrets....Alone! Well, almost. Voldemort is there, and Ginny, but she is unconscious. Fawkes arrives, but could he defend Harry before the Ministry? We know that Harry defeats Voldemort once again by killing the basilisk and piercing the diary. Once again, Dumbledore believes Harry and has the evidence of the diary and the bloody sword, but will this convince the MoM that Harry truly thwarted Voldemort? Could not the accusation be made that these so called "confrontations" with Voldemort are actually trysts held in the deepest of secrecy, with no witnesses? Could Harry be accused of being in league with Voldemort? Of actually bringing Voldemort to power? Perhaps in hopes that Voldemort will bring his parents back? Harry is already openly suspected of being the heir of Slytherin and under further suspicion for being a parseltongue. If the speculated romance between Harry and Ginny grows, would this not complicate matters if Ginny tries to defend Harry before the MoM? In Book three, we have Harry getting mixed up with Sirius Black, widely accused by the WW for killing Harry's parents and generally feared and mistrusted by all. Would it not seem suspicious to those not yet fully convinced of Black's innocence that Harry has not only rescued Black, but is keeping in contact with him? In GoF, we have the most suspicious confrontation of all. Harry encounters Voldemort, and returns with a dead Cedric and Voldemort more powerful than ever! We know Harry is innocent, again, Dumbledore believes him. But, no one else witnessed what happened except Voldemort, the Death Eaters and Cedric...now dead. If Harry's crush on Cho Chang comes to light, won't that cast him under even more suspicion as a jealous rival of Cedric's perhaps? I predict that Harry will be tried before the Ministry of Magic. He will become the scapegoat of the Death Eaters and the MoM. The Death Eaters will certainly want him marginalized, since he has witnessed their loyalty to Voldemort. The MoM will want the WW to know that they "have their man" and continue to ignore/facilitate the rise of Voldemort. They will either accuse Harry of bringing Voldemort back to power or of using Voldemort as a scapegoat for the evil things Harry himself has done. Ron and Hermione will of course rush to Harry's defense, but won't all their rule breaking come back to haunt them? Ginny and Cho will try to defend him, but the romantic quandrys they are entangled in will come to light, complicating things. Mr. and Mrs. Weasley will try to protect him... but won't Arthur Weasley's smudged reputation with the MoM come back to haunt him? What about Fred and George? Could they defend him? Maybe, but Harry recently gave them his winnings from the tournament...hmmm... could he be accused of buying their defense? Percy will be the one to watch..will he side with the MoM or Harry? Could this trial divide the Weasley family in two? I predict Harry will be tried, convicted, and locked into Azkaban. He will have to face the Dementors...his worst fear. Luckily though, he has his Patronus charm to help him. Also, he is friends to two former inmates...Sirius and Hagrid! Perhaps they can get him out? Meanwhile, with Harry locked up in Azkaban, Voldemort will be completely unchecked and the Death Eaters free to continue their duplicity. Could this explain the increase in deaths hinted at by Rowling? Perhaps Snape will prove useful to Harry somehow, if he is loyal to Dumbledore. Snape's widely observed hatred of Harry may actually help Harry if Snape decides to defend him and reveal that he is a double agent. I would greatly enjoy hearing comments on this theory. This is my first post since I am new. Kathleen From snorth at ucla.edu Thu Jan 9 02:35:21 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 18:35:21 -0800 Subject: Against Evil!Lupin theory (Was Re: Lupin's Shiver...) References: <20030109014504.17448.qmail@web40506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000b01c2b787$cc46dfa0$0100a8c0@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 49454 I don't know why anyone would think Lupin is evil; C'mon people, the shiver is just a shiver at the thought of the death of someone he cares about. Admittedly, this is more of a gut feeling than reliance on evidence, but there are a few points I can make: First point. The most important point I can make is this one: Dumbledore trusts Lupin. Now, he trusted Moody enough to make Moody the DADA teacher, but Crouch Jr. switched places before Moody made it to Hogwarts. However, there is ZERO evidence that Lupin is anyone but Lupin. Frankly, there's not a chance in Hades that JKR would write more than one DADA teacher in disguise into the story. That's meta-reading, but it's still rational. Now, for just a moment, let's assume someone has taken Lupin's place (no matter how illogical that sounds- I doubt even supporters of the Evil Lupin theory believe this, but I need to prove my original point). The imposter most certainly has Lycanthropy, or they went to an incredible amount of trouble to fake it (became an Animagus who can turn into a wolf?). We know Lupin doesn't drink from a hip flask. If you go and read PoA assuming Lupin is an imposter pretending to be Lupin, you will NOT find evidence supporting it, which is not true if you read GoF with the knowledge that Moody is Crouch Jr. Okay, I believe I have now established Lupin is most certainly Lupin, not hard, but now I return to my original point. Dumbldore trusts Lupin enough to make him the DADA teacher. I simply don't see Dumbledore making this kind of mistake in judgement. Second point. Lupin's greatest fear, as shown by the boggart, is the Full moon. Now, I can only guess this is because he's afraid of turning into a werewolf and hurting innocent people. I'm sorry, but if Lupin were evil, why would he be afraid of this? I doubt anyone who was a supporter of Voldemort would be afraid of turning into a werewolf and slaughtering innocents. Now, there could be another reason to fear the full moon, but I believe my reason would be the most probable. Third Point. If Lupin were a Voldemort supporter whose job it was to protect Harry, why would he have resigned at the end of the year? I don't think Dumbledore would have fired him, though I can see why he accepted Lupin's resignation (unlike Hagrid). Fourth Point. If Lupin were a Voldemort supporter, why didn't he kill Sirius to silence him? Fifth Point, part A. If Lupin were a Voldemort supporter, why wasn't he trying to help Voldemort regain his strength? part B. If he wasn't trying to help Voldemort regain his strength, then he was probably under orders to watch Harry, and it would have had to be a very,very important order (WHY DID HE RESIGN?!). Note that in GoF, Voldemort doesn't mention another Loyal supporter aside from Crouch Jr. (or, he could have been talking about Lupin, but then why didn't he mention Crouch Jr.- doesn't make sense) Sixth, and possibly the most important Point. It is our choices that make us who we are- not our heritage, or ability, afflictions, and so on. This is a central theme of the books. If Lupin were evil, well, he'd just be another typical werewolf, wouldn't he? The fact that Lupin is good, kind and dedicated person helps illustrate the aforementioned Theme to the reader. Lupin turning out evil would go against the 'our choices make us who we are' idea that is so strongly presented. Of course, he could turn out to be evil, and another werewolf who is truly good could be introduced into the story. But then, monkeys could fly out of my butt. Okay, so looking back at what I said earlier, I was incorrect. I have plenty of evidence as to why Lupin isn't evil. If the 'Shiver' means anything at all, it means that something very, very, very bad will happen if Harry dies. I'd like to think that with Maria's recent argument against Evil Lupin, most of the bases are now covered, and the Evil Lupin theory will be squashed. Of course, people just believe what they want to believe, so. . . ;) Personally, while I think Lupin is a good guy, I think he's a dead man. I just can't see him living through the next few books (also, I seem to recall JKR singling out Lupin as being a character she "loves", and she has also mentioned the difficulties of killing characters she loves- probably coincidence, but who knows.) -Scott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sevothtarte at gmx.net Thu Jan 9 03:19:43 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 04:19:43 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Barty Crouch Jr. the Loyal Supporter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49455 durant: > I think it is fairly clear in GoF that Voldemort means his one loyal > DE at Hogwarts to be Barty Crouch Jr. And Voldie makes of big deal > out of the fact that Crouch went to Azkaban, escaped and tried to > help him return to power. > However, when Harry sees Crouch Jr. in the Pensieve, he sees a man > who, at that point would clearly be willing to renounce Voldemort and > all the dark magic if it meant that he didn't have to go to Azkaban. > It was the other three who were with him who were the truly loyal > ones. Crouch was begging his father for forgiveness. Me: Had he been spared, Barty Jr. wouldn't have wasted any time and set out to find his master again. He swallowed his pride in his own faithfullness to be able to help LV. Also, Barty Jr. knew his father very well and knew he most probably wouldn't show mercy. He knew he was going to Azkaban, he just put up this show to cause some more damage, by casting a shadow on his father's reputation, subjecting him to people's doubts. A completely innocent son sent to the Dementors by a cold father was worse for people's opinion of their MoM-to-be than a son forced to do evil through the Imperius curse, for example. If Jr. were to stay in Azkaban until he died, it wouldn't matter much, but maybe he was expecting his mother to help him escape - he's good at judging people and their likely behaviour - and therefore expected the outcome of people blaming things on his father in the end, like they did when he 'died'. Sevothtarte From silveroak_us at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 03:21:18 2003 From: silveroak_us at yahoo.com (silveroak_us ) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 03:21:18 -0000 Subject: What happened after the Trio used the Polyjuice Potion? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49456 I am not sure if this has been discussed before (I checked the HPFGU Archives and did not see anything, but cannot be sure I looked everywhere). This actually caught my attention the first time I read the second book, and I kind of filed it away to see if it would be mentioned again, and it wasn't, and I didn't remember that I had ever thought about it, until I saw TMTMNBN-Part Deux, and my daughter asked me... "After Harry and Ron gave those boys the sleeping cupcake, didn't their friend Draco talk to them later and find out they were sleeping?" In the second book, Chapter Twelve, "The Polyjuice Potion", Harry andRon give Crabbe and Goyle chocolate cakes with a Sleeping Draught. After C&G are asleep, H&R take them to the closet off the entrance hall. Once there, H&R take some hairs from C&G's heads and their shoes. After finishing the Potion, H& R go off, find Draco, talk with Draco about the Heir of Slytherin, and the potion begins to wear off. H&R then run back to the entrance hall where C&G are pounding on the door (now awake from the spiked cakes) whereupon H&R leave the shoes and go back to meet Hermione in Myrtle's lavatory. And then...nothing! We never hear that C&G went back to Draco and said something along the lines of "You'd never believe what just happened to us! We fell asleep after eating some cakes, and then next thing you know we're in a closet and some git took our shoes! How weird is that, Draco?" Followed by Draco saying something like "I've got something even weirder. While you say you were in the closet I was having a strange conversation WITH YOU TWO in our Slytherin Common Room. HOW WEIRD IS THAT??" But we never read anything more about the mysterious affair of the puloined shoes and the bi-locating thuggish side-kicks. HOW WEIRD IS THAT??? I can't for the life of me figure out how JKR managed to leave such a huge loose end just sitting there, hanging there, waiting to be wrapped up, somehow. It ought to have been worth an owl back to Chateau Malfoy, or a casual remark to Snape from his favorite student. (Whereupon Snape could have rummaged around his potions supplies and discovered the missing boomslang skin a full two books before CrouchJr!Moody started messing around with it.) Just one of those random thoughts that won't quite go away. ** Martin Miggs, the Mad Muggle ** From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Thu Jan 9 02:39:38 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 20:39:38 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Potter Geography References: <20030109004803.45898.qmail@web40509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3E1CE0EA.25570D7B@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49458 Maria Kirilenko wrote: > > IIRC, Godric's Hollow is mentioned in Quidditch Through the Ages. I > don't have that book and I don't remember what exactly was said about > it except that the inventor of the Snitch lived there, but maybe the > place was called a village or a town? > > I guess I need the book... > > Maria > "The invention of the Golden Snitch is credited to the wizard Bowman Wright of Godric's Hollow." Also, for all those people who say that Hoggsmeade is the only Wizard village in Britain, shouldn't that be the only wizard village in SCOTLAND? Hoggswart is located in Scotland, last I knew, after all, not Britain. Don't ever let a Scot hear you call Scotland 'Britain'. Especially not a drunken Scottish soccer player on Brit Rail.. ;) Also, who said that its the only wizard village? I get a feeling a number of people actually live in or near Diagon Alley to, though I'm not sure you could define it as a village, hidden in London. Jazmyn From dmtranscript at aol.com Thu Jan 9 03:28:41 2003 From: dmtranscript at aol.com (dmtranscript at aol.com) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 22:28:41 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry will be accused and locked up in Azkaban Message-ID: <4C9F30C8.6B395249.161754AB@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49459 In a message dated 1/8/2003 9:27:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, kathleen at happ.net writes: > > > I will begin with HPandSS. When Harry confronts Voldemort, Voldemort > tries to win him over by promising the return of his parents. Harry > refuses Voldemort....but does anyone else witness it? The only > people present are Voldemort, Quirrel,(who dies), and Harry. Hi, all. OK, on Professor Quirrell....does he actually *die*? I mean DD did say that LV "left him to die" but that doesn't necessarily mean PQ did die.....(I know I'm splitting hairs, but this assumption that PQ actually died when we really have no evidence for it bothers me). So maybe, he'll come out of hiding (or whatever) and testify for Harry in this case. Not that it would do much good, I'm afraid (IMHO).... Mr. and Mrs. Weasley will > try to protect him... but won't Arthur Weasley's smudged reputation > with the MoM come back to haunt him? > > What about Fred and George? Could they defend him? Maybe, but Harry > recently gave them his winnings from the tournament...hmmm... could > he be accused of buying their defense? Percy will be the one to > watch..will he side with the MoM or Harry? Could this trial divide > the Weasley family in two? OOh.....now THAT'S an interesting prospect........I never did like Percy..........to sycophantic for me :). > > I predict Harry will be tried, convicted, and locked into Azkaban. > He will have to face the Dementors...his worst fear. Luckily though, > he has his Patronus charm to help him. The only problem with this idea is that (I believe) that you have to have your wand to perform this spell, and I really don't think that the MoM is going to let a Azkaban inmate have his/her wand............ But that's just me :) Dimo Iowa City, Iowa Hufflepuff, forever! From amani at charter.net Thu Jan 9 03:53:11 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 22:53:11 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Potter Geography References: <20030109004803.45898.qmail@web40509.mail.yahoo.com> <3E1CE0EA.25570D7B@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: <005701c2b792$a1906be0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49460 Jazmyn: >Also, for all those people who say that Hoggsmeade is the only Wizard >village in Britain, shouldn't that be the only wizard village in >SCOTLAND? Hoggswart is located in Scotland, last I knew, after all, not >Britain. Don't ever let a Scot hear you call Scotland 'Britain'. >Especially not a drunken Scottish soccer player on Brit Rail.. ;) Y'know, this sort of thing just came up on alt.fan.harry-potter. Britain is not a country. It refers to the island of Great Britain. You wouldn't say Scotland /is/ Britain, you would say it is /part/ of Britain. Like France is /part/ of Europe. And we had a few Scottish members of the group speak up and say they would not be offended in the least to be said they were living in Britain, as Scotland is part of Britain. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From chpdel at adelphia.net Thu Jan 9 03:55:04 2003 From: chpdel at adelphia.net (Tiff & Del) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 22:55:04 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What happened after the Trio used the Polyjuice Potion? References: Message-ID: <00ae01c2b792$e4630cc0$cee73018@pit.adelphia.net> No: HPFGUIDX 49461 <<<<----- Original Message ----- From: silveroak_us We never hear that C&G went back to Draco and said something along the lines of "You'd never believe what just happened to us! We fell asleep after eating some cakes, and then next thing you know we're in a closet and some git took our shoes! How weird is that, Draco?" Followed by Draco saying something like "I've got something even weirder. While you say you were in the closet I was having a strange conversation WITH YOU TWO in our Slytherin Common Room. HOW WEIRD IS THAT??" But we never read anything more about the mysterious affair of the puloined shoes and the bi-locating thuggish side-kicks. HOW WEIRD IS THAT??? I can't for the life of me figure out how JKR managed to leave such a huge loose end just sitting there, hanging there, waiting to be wrapped up, somehow. It ought to have been worth an owl back to Chateau Malfoy, or a casual remark to Snape from his favorite student. (Whereupon Snape could have rummaged around his potions supplies and discovered the missing boomslang skin a full two books before CrouchJr!Moody started messing around with it.) Just one of those random thoughts that won't quite go away. ** Martin Miggs, the Mad Muggle **>>>>>>>>> I would think Crabbe and Goyle would be the types of kids that wouldn't mention something like that because it would make them look 'stupid' and it would give Draco more ammo...coz I am sure he doesn't treat them very well & I am sure he would have rubbed that in at every opportunity......(they are 'yes' men IMO) and what could be stupider than picking up 2 cakes laying on the floor and eating them?? It just screamed 'trap' LOL of course Crabbe and Goyle aren't the brightest crayons in the box either...but still..that was just absolutely...obvious..LOL... JMHO of course!! Tiffany It is not fair to ask of others what you are not willing to do yourself. --Eleanor Roosevelt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rvotaw at i-55.com Thu Jan 9 04:05:29 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 22:05:29 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Sneakoscope/ Fleur in Book 5/ A Theory about Harry References: Message-ID: <015901c2b794$59d9e450$949fcdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 49462 Laurasia writes: > According to my copy of GoF, Moody's Sneakoscope *doesn't* go off at > all when Harry is in his office. In fact, it's deactivated. I think Barb was thinking of the Secrecy Sensor. It's mentioned immediately after the Sneakscope. And it's humming slightly. Harry asks what it is, Moody!Crouch tells him and says it vibrates when it detects concealment and lies. Concealment and lies, huh? Then he said it was because of students sneaking around telling lies whatever. Hah! It was a clue to Moody not being Moody at all, as Crouch of course was concealed as Moody. Suze writes: > Forgive my potential foolery in this, my first post, as I'm not > certain as to what the consensus is on the issue, but what is thought > to be the role, if any, of Fleur Delacour in the 5th book? And if > she does indeed turn out to be the 5th DADA teacher, what do people > think of the possibility of her being the second Triwizard champion > to die in as many books? First of all, with Voldemort gaining power I think the number one qualification for the new DADA is loyalty. Second qualification would be ability to teach students to defend against the dark arts, as the position is for just that. Does Fleur qualify in either of these categories? First, we know little about her, how loyal she could be. Second, what does Fleur know about defending against the dark arts? She's hardly qualified. Besides that (call me cruel) I wouldn't be the least bit upset at her parting, she's always been one of my least favorite characters. AD writes: > time in history -- and in that context, the decision to 'experiment' with > Harry becomes a question of, "Are we going to give our child a fighting > chance to survive, and perhaps save us all?" rather than one as callous as, > "Oh, let's mess around with this embryo for the heck of it and see what > happens." I must concede, every parent does want their child to be the best they can be. Why bring a child into an evil world? If you can give him something to defend against the evil, do it. Could be. Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rvotaw at i-55.com Thu Jan 9 04:13:19 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 22:13:19 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Crouch!Moody. When did Dumbledore know?/ Harry accused and locked up in Azkaban References: Message-ID: <016f01c2b795$71aabc20$949fcdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 49463 Pickle Jimmy writes: > In the whole "[Dumbledore] doesn't miss a trick" arena, when does > Dumbledore suspect that Moody isn't Moody? > > I don't have the books with me - I'm actually at work :/ - but I was > wondering if there had been a hunt for canon regarding Dumbledore's > knowledge (or suspicions) of fake!moody. I believe the first indication we have is what Dumbledore says himself. That when he told Harry to stay (while dealing with Cedric's dead body, parents, etc.) and Moody took him away he knew it wasn't Moody. Because the real Moody would never have taken Harry from the scene. Kathleen writes: > I predict Harry will be tried, convicted, and locked into Azkaban. > He will have to face the Dementors...his worst fear. Luckily though, > he has his Patronus charm to help him. Also, he is friends to two > former inmates...Sirius and Hagrid! Perhaps they can get him out? First, I don't see how Harry's Patronus would help him out in Azkaban. It can fend off a dementor. Maybe two. But a prison full of them, twenty four hours a day, seven days a week? Harry wouldn't last a day. Maybe I'm a softie, but I don't think JKR would do that to Harry. It would be almost worse than death. He would mentally break down (next stop rooming with Lockhart?--just kidding). Second, how are Sirius and Hagrid supposed to get him out? If Sirius breaths a word he's back in himself. Hagrid couldn't get himself out, and it took Sirius 12 years. > Meanwhile, with Harry locked up in Azkaban, Voldemort will be > completely unchecked and the Death Eaters free to continue their > duplicity. Could this explain the increase in deaths hinted at by I really don't see how Harry out of Azkaban would keep Voldemort in check. His army of DE's isn't going to sit around saying, "Oh, I can't kill anyone, Harry Potter might come after me." Harry can't do a thing to stop Voldemort until he meets him face to face. Eventually (again). Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 04:28:23 2003 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen ) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 04:28:23 -0000 Subject: Ron a seer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49464 Jim Ferer wrote: >Some people have speculated Ron could be a seer. What if the >bullfeathers Ron comes up with to placate Trelawney start coming up >true? He'd be the opposite of Trelawney - someone who doesn't >believe a word of what he's saying, but it turns out true. It would >be sort of reverse Cassandra complex. Faith wrote: > I have actually thought about this... in GoF, when Harry and Ron are > making up predictions for their Divination homework, a few of > Ron's > predictions actually do come true. (I'm sorry for the > paraphrasing, > but I don't actually have the book right now. Maybe someone could > check this for me?) He predicts, for Harry, that "someone he > thought > was a friend would stab him in the back." which could be > Ron's > jealousy after Harry's name comes out of the GoF. He also > predicts > that he will get into a fight, and later he does get into a fight > with Harry. Maybe this is just my Ron-Fan side coming out. I think > that Ron must have *some* sort of undiscovered talent. The idea of Ron being a seer has always seemed to be quite popular. Most of the canon support for this is found in the dodgy predictions that he and Harry make up. Other than the two you've mentioned (Found in Chapter 14 "The Unforgivable Curses" GoF. Ron: "Why don't you get stabbed in the back by someone you thought was a friend" Ron: "I'll think I'll come off worst in a fight") there are other ones, such as: Ron predicts his own drowning, then gets taken to the bottom of the Lake in the second Task. (Chapter 14 "The Unforgivable Curses" GoF) Ron predicts Harry will have "unexpected gold" which could be taken to be Harry winning the Triwizard Tournament. (Chapter 6 "Talons and Tea Leaves" PoA). There's loads more, but some of them are a more of a stretch. As an example, Harry predicts he will "lose a treasured possession," and then when his name gets pulled out of the Goblet of Fire he loses Ron's friendship. I'm sure all the evidence is documented somewhere. There are also some other examples before Ron and Harry take Divination such as: Ron guesses that Tom Riddle killed Moaning Myrtle, which ends up being the case (from Chapter 13 "The Very Secret Diary" CoS- "Maybe he murdered Myrtle, that would've done everyone a favour...") On a slightly different tangent but still in support of the 'Ron is a Seer' theory, I've thought that (in addition to the dodgy predictions that Ron makes) the fact that he is exceptionally good at chess may be an indication of his Seeing abilities. The success of a chess player is reliant on anticipating the opponents next move. The best way to win a game of chess is to know what the person will do next and plan a response ahead of time. If Ron is a Seer then his talent at chess may be because of it- he Sees what his opponent will do next. In comparison, Hermione is *bad* at chess, and we know that she thinks Divination is a load of rubbish and doesn't tolerate it. (Hermione is bad at chess is from Chapter 13 "Nicolas Flamel" PS- 'Chess was the only thing Hermione ever lost at...') (Hermione thinks Divination is garbage from PoA, specifically Chapter 6 "Talons and tea Leaves" PoA- "That lesson was absolute rubbish compared to my Arithmancy class") If Ron is indeed a Seer, his talent at chess is well accounted for. ~<(Laurasia)>~ From urbana at charter.net Thu Jan 9 04:41:56 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne ) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 04:41:56 -0000 Subject: (FILK) Oh! Harry...and Dobby Road In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49465 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Gail Bohacek" wrote: > > ***************************************************** > Woo Hoo! Exciting news! > > Well, it's exciting for me... > > I'm pleased to announce that with the completion of this filk above, we have > now filked the entire Beatles album, _Abby Road_! > > This is way cool because this is the first time a whole album has been > Potter-ized! Totally AWESOME, Gail!! You guys ROCCCCKKKKKK!! :-) > Our next album....Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club >Band...anybody out > there like to help? Let me know, eh? I'd love it! > I can hear it now, to the tune of Sergeant Peppers Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band: "Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs" ... :-) Anne U (at least I know all these songs!) From dmtranscript at aol.com Thu Jan 9 04:00:17 2003 From: dmtranscript at aol.com (Dmitri Mosier ) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 04:00:17 -0000 Subject: Animagi.............. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49466 Once they finally master the spell, do they get to pick what animal they become? I haven't seen any evidence that says so, but I get the feeling that each animagus just "changes" and which animal is left up to either "fate" or maybe some decision of the "liscencing authority"........no, that would leave out the unregistered ones........ but anyway, you get the idea. Any theories? Douglas Iowa City, Iowa Hufflepuff forever! From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Thu Jan 9 04:34:11 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 22:34:11 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Potter Geography References: <20030109004803.45898.qmail@web40509.mail.yahoo.com> <3E1CE0EA.25570D7B@pacificpuma.com> <005701c2b792$a1906be0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: <3E1CFBC3.2C18951@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49467 You know, based on the direction Hagrid flew in from and people thinking Godric's Hollow was in Wales, maybe.. Look at a map, Ireland is in that direction too. Think maybe they were hiding out in Ireland? Who knows how many wizard villages there are in Southern Ireland. Jazmyn From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Thu Jan 9 04:24:29 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 22:24:29 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Potter Geography References: <20030109004803.45898.qmail@web40509.mail.yahoo.com> <3E1CE0EA.25570D7B@pacificpuma.com> <005701c2b792$a1906be0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: <3E1CF97D.D80A4B39@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49468 Taryn Kimel wrote: > > Jazmyn: > >Also, for all those people who say that Hoggsmeade is the only Wizard > >village in Britain, shouldn't that be the only wizard village in > >SCOTLAND? Hoggswart is located in Scotland, last I knew, after all, > not > >Britain. Don't ever let a Scot hear you call Scotland 'Britain'. > >Especially not a drunken Scottish soccer player on Brit Rail.. ;) > > Y'know, this sort of thing just came up on alt.fan.harry-potter. > Britain is not a country. It refers to the island of Great Britain. > You wouldn't say Scotland /is/ Britain, you would say it is /part/ of > Britain. Like France is /part/ of Europe. And we had a few Scottish > members of the group speak up and say they would not be offended in > the least to be said they were living in Britain, as Scotland is part > of Britain. > > --Taryn > Isn't it that Scotland is a part of the United Kingdom. Britain is a part of the United Kingdom. etc. Saying Scotland ia a part of Britain is like saying Wales is Britain too. One assumes that 'Britain' in the books refers to just Britain and not all of Great Britain, or it would state 'Great' Britain. I'm just referring to what my maps say the country (and parts thereof) are called. Jazmyn From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Jan 9 05:06:06 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:06:06 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Potter Geography In-Reply-To: <3E1CF97D.D80A4B39@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: <3E1D9DEE.1730.28A894@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 49469 On 8 Jan 2003 at 22:24, jazmyn wrote: > > Isn't it that Scotland is a part of the United Kingdom. Britain is a > part of the United Kingdom. etc. > > Saying Scotland ia a part of Britain is like saying Wales is Britain > too. One assumes that 'Britain' in the books refers to just Britain and > not all of Great Britain, or it would state 'Great' Britain. > > I'm just referring to what my maps say the country (and parts thereof) > are called. OK - I have my second cousin next to me - she's a Scot (visiting here), she's Hermione Stranger on the Harry Potter newsgroup, and one of the people who responded to the thread there. Scotland is a part of the UK. The UK consists of England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland (and some smaller islands as well). Scotland is also a part of Great Britain. Great Britain consists of England, Scotland, and Wales. Great Britain is part of the UK - it's actually most of the UK. But it's not the same thing as the UK. Scotland *is* a part of Britain. Wales *is* a part of Britain. England *is* a part of Britain. I think you may be confusing Britain with England - Scots will get annoyed if you call them English. But they are British. A lot of people outside Britain, don't understand the distinctions - even the foreign press gets it wrong a lot of the time. But Scotland is part of Britain and *most* Scots consider themselves British as well as being Scots - there is a small minority that objects to the term. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From voldemort at tut.by Thu Jan 9 07:46:14 2003 From: voldemort at tut.by (Alexander) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 09:46:14 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What Other Talents Seers Have? (was: Ron a seer) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1742088774.20030109094614@tut.by> No: HPFGUIDX 49471 Greetings! > Laurasia wrote: ssyc> On a slightly different tangent but still in support ssyc> of the 'Ron is a Seer' theory, I've thought that (in ssyc> addition to the dodgy predictions that Ron makes) the ssyc> fact that he is exceptionally good at chess may be an ssyc> indication of his Seeing abilities. Personally, I have always had an impression, that his talent in chess was an indication of his *analytical* abilities. Can't see a way how Seeing can help in a game of chess. For it to be of *any* help, it must provide him with nearly complete picture of what will happen, and regularly (not once in several games). And we still have to see a Seer in the book who would be so talented. And anyway he was playing against Harry, who is supposed to be a damn good Seer himself. My general point: in a complex analytical game a talent that is unreliable and irregular can only hurt. So if Ron is a Seer, I would dare to say that his Seeing abilities actually *damage* his play. On the other hand, are there any areas where Seeing could be of help? My bet is it helps in flying, in seeking the Snitch, maybe in beating the bludgers (I have always wondered at that phrase in the movie: "You would make a fair Beater, Potter!"), definitely in dodging spells (yet another topic that was discussed at length in this group). Any other ideas or counterarguments? And... would professor Trelawney make a great Seeker? ;) Sincerely yours, Alexander Lomski, Gryffindor/Slytherin crossbreed, great supporter of McGonagall/Crookshanks SHIP. ----- "One must be a complete paranoic to search for a hedgehog on the top of a fir-tree." (P. Shumilov) From srsiriusblack at aol.com Thu Jan 9 08:21:34 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 03:21:34 EST Subject: mistake??? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49472 Well... I have been for a while now comparing editions of the HP books, and with the small exception of the UK editions being in English ( giggle) I have found very little differences... However, in re-reading GoF, I *did* discover something. I have yet to find it on the list, and if it has been discussed before, please pardon the redundancy. GoF UK Edition Cloth pg 579, right after BErtha Jorkins appears from the wand: "...he knew as though he had expected it from the moment Cedric had appeared from the wand... knew, because the man appearing was the one he had thought of more that any other tonight.... The smoky shadow of a tall man with untidy hair fell to the ground as Bertha had done, straightened up, and looked at him... and Harry, his arms shaking madly now, looked back into the ghostly face of his father. 'You're mother's coming...' he said quietly. 'She wants to see you... it will be all right... hold on...' And then she came..." Now, when I first read the GoB the only thing that seemed odd was that Harry's father died before his mum to my best understanding..... Now looking to the US Paperback edition, page 667 same place: "...and Harry knew when he saw it who it would be... he knew, as though he had expected it from the moment when Cedirc had appeared from the wand... knew, because the woman was the one he had thought of more than any other tonight... The smoky shadow of a young woman with long hair fell to the ground just as Bertha had done, straightened up, and looked at him... and Harry, his arms shaking madly now, looked back into the ghostly face of his mother. 'You're father's coming...' she said quietly. 'Hold on for your father... it will be all right.... hold on..." Interesting little difference I thought I would share.... -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 08:26:54 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 08:26:54 -0000 Subject: Potter Geography - The Magic City In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49473 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer " > > > Jim Ferer wrote: > > ... ... ...but just where do we think Godric's Hollow was located?" > > > > ...edited... > > > > What's not clear is if Godric's Hollow is a town or village or if > > it's the name of James and Lily's house (a la The Burrow). > > ...edited... > > > > Jim Ferer > > bboy_mn originally said: > > ...edited... > > Now Godric's Hollow; one other possibility is that Godric's Hollow > is the equivalent of Diagon Alley in London. I suspect other major > cities in the UK also have small magical neighborhoods hidden within > them, the same way London has Diagon Alley. ...edited... > > Just a few thoughts. > > bboy_mn bboy_mn with some additional thoughts: I'm off on a tangent again; sorry, that's just the way my mind works. So, I pose to you all a new question. Is Diagon Alley a magic neighborhood hidden inside of muggle London, or is Diagon Alley one neighborhood of an entire Magic City hidden within London? Knockturn Ally seems to have a substantially different personality that Diagon Alley, so it would seem to be more of a neighborhood defined by a central street than simple another street. Another way of saying it, is it seems a separate neighborhood rather than an extension of Diagon Alley. So if we assume that's true, then there could be even more neighborhoods, maybe enough neighborhoods to add up to an entire large Magic City. I guess we could refer to it as Magic London and Muggle London. I've always pictured Malfoy Manor as being located somewhere in one of the nicer neighborhoods of the magic city. Malfoy doesn't seem the type to buy a house near muggles and live contently separate from them. I think he would have a house in the magic world, and the implicaiton seem to be that he lives in London, so based mostly on assumption, that would place him in the posh section of the Magic City; Magic London. I don't have a lot of data to back this up, but let's consider that there are a lot of wizards, and they have to live somewhere. I seems a lot of them are just spread around the country in single houses or very small pockets of like-minded wizards. But that and Hogsmeade doesn't seem to be enough to account for them all. Again, a city like Birmingham could have a Wizard Town in the same sense that London has a China Town. The so called 'Wizard Town' would simple be a nice muggle neighborhood where a couple of wizard families settled, then to be near their own kind, more wizards moved in until they had their own little neighborhood. Still a muggle neighborhood, but dominated by the common culture of most of the residents. One of those quaint eccentric neighborhood that make city life so colorfull. Now back to the Magic City. I see Diagon Alley as 'uptown' Magic City. It's what we call here in the US 'main street'; what Brits would call 'high street'. The Ministry of Magic must be in the Magic City, but it doesn't seem to be in Diagon Alley. I say that based on logic rather than any direct text reference to the fact. But it doesn't seem logical that the Ministry of Magic would not be in some quaint London muggle neighborhood. Little things like this that are more implied than stated are what make me think that the Magic City really is a pretty substantial city within a city. It probably has a red-light district, an entertainment district, an industrial/business district, a government district, poor residential neighborhoods, rich residential neighborhoods, middle class neighborhoods, maybe even a sea port, basically all the things that any city has. Although, I don't think it is even remotely close to the size of Muggle London. It's more like a large town or small city. Although we never hear it referred to in that way, it still seems to be a logical conclusion that Diagon Alley is not THE Magic City, but one neighborhood of a larger Magic City. Any thoughts on this?? bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 08:52:36 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 08:52:36 -0000 Subject: mistake??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49474 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, srsiriusblack at a... wrote: > > Well... > > I have been for a while now comparing editions of the HP books, and > with the small exception of the UK editions being in English > (giggle) ... ... ...in re-reading GoF, I *did* discover > something. I have yet to find it on the list, and if it has been > discussed before, please pardon the redundancy. > > GoF UK Edition Cloth pg 579, right after Bertha Jorkins appears > from the wand: > > ...edited.... > 'You're mother's coming...' he said quietly. 'She wants to see > you... it will be all right... hold on...' > > ...edited... > > Now looking to the US Paperback edition, page 667 same place: > > ...edited... > 'You're father's coming...' she said quietly. 'Hold on for your > father... it will be all right.... hold on..." > > Interesting little difference I thought I would share.... > > -Snuffles bboy_mn: Actually this is something that has been discussed. Of course, here, pretty much everything from the mundane to the insane has already been discussed. So don't let it bother you. Generally, this is consider a mistake. Presumably, when JKR wrote it she simple forgot that things were happening in REVERSE chronological order and wrote it wrong. Supposedly, it has been corrected in all editions in the more recent printings. Others speculate that the JKR really did intend to write it that way, and information that will be revealed in later books will explain this. For now it's considered a mistake that's been corrected. Although some have indicated that it has only been corrected in the American versions. Which only confuses the matter that much more. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 08:56:33 2003 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen ) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 08:56:33 -0000 Subject: What Other Talents Seers Have?/Seeing in Chess In-Reply-To: <1742088774.20030109094614@tut.by> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49475 Alexander Lomski wrote: > > Laurasia wrote: > > ssyc> On a slightly different tangent but still in support > ssyc> of the 'Ron is a Seer' theory, I've thought that (in > ssyc> addition to the dodgy predictions that Ron makes) the > ssyc> fact that he is exceptionally good at chess may be an > ssyc> indication of his Seeing abilities. > > Personally, I have always had an impression, that his > talent in chess was an indication of his *analytical* > abilities. Maybe. But in that case surely Hermione would be excellent at chess, which, we know, she isn't (or at least, Ron always beats her. Suggesting he's go something she hasn't) Maybe it's more indicative of his abilities to do with strategic thinking. However, strategy is always enhanced if you can anticipate how your enemies will respond and have a prepared rebuttal. Alexander Lomski wrote: > And anyway he was playing against Harry, who is supposed > to be a damn good Seer himself. Ron plays against lots of different people: Harry by himself, Harry assisted largely and poorly by Percy, Hermione, McGonagall's Giant Chess Set. He wins against all of them. Harry prophetic powers are more associated with dreams and visions in very specific circmstances- he's asleep, mostly. Any example of Ron's 'power' is usually an offhand or unintentional remark. Whilst both of them have shown some degree of prophetic insight, they're in very different circumstances. If clues of their oponents next move was to visit either of them, it would more likely be Ron than Harry (unless Harry dozed off partway through, that is... :D ). Alexander Lomski wrote: > My general point: in a complex analytical game a talent > that is unreliable and irregular can only hurt. So if Ron is > a Seer, I would dare to say that his Seeing abilities > actually *damage* his play. Only if he's a Trelawney style Seer. We've only been introduced to one Seer, so there's no evidence that this is the only type of Seeing. There are other types of seeing the future- Arithmancy, for instance, so there could be different degrees and types of Seers too. If he was a more efficient Seer who didn't go into trances (he hasn't yet, and people still suggest he's a Seer) it would help. Anyway, if Ron is a Seer, he doesn't know it yet so he's not completely full of himself and his 'powers' like Trelawney is. Whilst Trelawney takes every available opportunity she can to 'display' her 'powers,' if Ron could just 'see' simple things (like an opponents next move) and couldn't understand why, he's more likely to trust them as instincts. Alexander Lomski wrote: > On the other hand, are there any areas where Seeing could > be of help? My bet is it helps in flying, in seeking the > Snitch, maybe in beating the bludgers ...definitely in dodging spells (yet another > topic that was discussed at length in this group). Any other > ideas or counterarguments? Seeing would be of excellent help in Quidditch only if it's not trance-like unexpected out-of-the-blue Seeing. If it's just short range 'I know there will be a bludger coming there' it would be an excellent ability to have, although, in that case surely the same ideas can be applied to a chess game. To quote Alexander Lomski who I'm currently counter-arguing: "For it to be of *any* help, it must provide him with nearly complete picture of what will happen, and regularly (not once in several games)." This is still true for a Quidditch game. If you see 'Seeing' as of being a great use in Quidditch, which is constantly changing during the game, then it should be of equal help in a chess game. I daresay, it will be *more* of a help in chess because in Quidditch there are 14 players with different minds and making different choices according to the different evolving circumstances, whereas in chess there is one person moving all the pieces in unity according to the changing situation. Also, in Quidditch all the players move at the same time, whereas in chess pieces move only one at a time. I agree that Seeing would be of excellent use in Quidditch, especially to the Seeker, who acts largely independent to the rest of the game, although I don't understand how you can say it would be of use in Quidditch, but not in Chess, when, essentially they work on the same theory: there are pieces moving in complex patterns and both are strategic games. ~<(Laurasia)>~ From heidit at netbox.com Thu Jan 9 09:11:44 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 04:11:44 -0500 Subject: Wand order (was mistake???) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <071601c2b7bf$21746d30$0301a8c0@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 49476 > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, srsiriusblack at a... wrote: > > > > Well... > > > > I have been for a while now comparing editions of the HP books, and > > with the small exception of the UK editions being in English > > (giggle) ... ... ...in re-reading GoF, I *did* discover > > something. I have yet to find it on the list, and if it has been > > discussed before, please pardon the redundancy. Bboy wrote: > > For now it's considered a mistake that's been corrected. > Although some have indicated that it has only been corrected > in the American versions. Which only confuses the matter that > much more. No, my UK paperback has the revised version in it - the original "version" is commonly acknowledged here and in the wider world to be a flint (a term coined, IIRC, by pippin who noticed that JKR kept Marcus Flint on for an extra year). You can read more about the Wand Order Discussion here on HPfGU when it was actually "going on" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups-Archives/message/3754 and subsequent messages (there is NO traffic on that group, so no worries about joining it to read the posts), as well as here: http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/mysteries.html - #6 under Plot Mysteries. Scans of the pages from a first printing of GoF and from a later printing are available http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Graphics/Publications/ Heidi From h_potter_uk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jan 9 05:12:59 2003 From: h_potter_uk at yahoo.co.uk (h_potter_uk ) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 05:12:59 -0000 Subject: (FILK) "A Wizard's Life" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49477 Hey Gail, This one's for you. Now be gentle, this is my first time writing up a FILK. I've added side notes with little "*" now and then. "A Wizard's Life" to "A Day in the Life" by the Beatles A WIZARD'S LIFE I read the news today oh boy About a wizard lad who made the grade He blew up You-Know-Who at last That's all behind him now It's written in the the past. He's packed his bags and left his home He didn't notcie how to find the train A crowd of people stood and stared They'd seen his face before Nobody was really sure if he had killed the Dark Lord. I saw a film today oh boy The English Quidditch team had just won the match A crowd of people turned away But I just had to look Having read the book Ha...rry....Pot...ter... *just say it like you're saying "I'd love to turn you on..." Woke up, Fell out of bed Tried to drag a comb across my head Found my way downstairs and drank a cup, and looking up I noticed I was late. Found my cloak and grabbed my hat Made my class in seconds flat. Found my way upstairs and smelled some smoke And Trelawny spoke and I went into a dream. AHHH... *just like the original I read the sports page oh boy The Gryffindors had just won their match The Slytherins were rather sad They hadn't caught the Snitch Now they know how many points they need to win the Quidditch Cup. I'd love to turn you on... *~*~*~*~*~*~*~* My first FILK ever! I originally wrote this after I read the first two books and then made amendments on it ever since. So there you go. My contribution to Sgt. Potter :) Yours in Beatledom and Gryffindor, Jenny From heidit at netbox.com Thu Jan 9 09:22:47 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 04:22:47 -0500 Subject: FF: RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: What Other Talents Seers Have?/Seeing in Chess In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <071801c2b7c0$acc746e0$0301a8c0@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 49478 > > > Laurasia wrote: > > > > ssyc> On a slightly different tangent but still in support > > ssyc> of the 'Ron is a Seer' theory, I've thought that (in > addition to > > ssyc> the dodgy predictions that Ron makes) the fact that he is > > ssyc> exceptionally good at chess may be an indication of > his Seeing > > ssyc> abilities. Alexander Lomski wrote > > Personally, I have always had an impression, that his talent in > > chess was an indication of his *analytical* abilities. sevenhundredandthirteen wrote > Maybe. But in that case surely Hermione would be excellent at chess, > which, we know, she isn't (or at least, Ron always beats her. > Suggesting he's go something she hasn't) Maybe it's more indicative > of his abilities to do with strategic thinking. However, strategy is > always enhanced if you can anticipate how your enemies will respond > and have a prepared rebuttal. > I am in the Ron Is A Seer camp, in part because of the Trelawney-class-predictions, but also because of the chess games. I actually suspected that it would be revealed by now, when I read PS/SS, because one of the fundamentals of being excellent at chess is the ability to see many moves beyond what is currently on the table - of course, there are many muggles - even 11 year olds! - who are just that good, but in the HP context, it seems that an additional explanation might be useful. In Cassandra Claire's Draco Series (Book 3, Draco Veritas) Ron's seer issues are brought out in a chess-related situation (http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Cassandra_Claire/) - I don't want to spoil it for the few who haven't read it yet - or the number of people who just might not be that far into the story yet, but in Chapter Nine, there's a description of how overplaying chess might cause Ron's Seer-sense to go into overdrive. In the context of Harry, he seems to have some precognition when it comes to the Snitch, and obviously, his "final exam" in Trelawney's class in PoA came true, but it's entirely possible that if both of them have Seer powers, they manifest in different ways. In other words, Harry's sight might be more personal - things that he (or Voldemort) are actually involved in - whereas Ron's might also be abstract, like the movement of pieces on a chess board - and possibly more theoretical in his descriptions of what he sees. Heidi From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Thu Jan 9 09:19:39 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 09:19:39 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Krum and Her-My-Oh-Ninny Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49479 Christopher: >I've been thinking about Krum's relationship with Hermione (I hope I got >his version right on the subject field) and I've got an unusual conclusion >to the question, what does he see in her? > My guess is that Hermione was so obviously not interested in Krum's fame or anything while in the library that she may have been a bit of a relief for him to talk to - their introduction could have been something as simple as one knocking a stack of books over and the other helping pick it up. Hermione is a straight shooter, not a girly-girl, and I don't imagine Krum finds giggles and coquetry very fetching. As a top athlete himself, he may well have been impressed by her, for lack of a better term, "intellectual athleticism" and thirst for knowledge; she's driven, but in a different arena, so they're not competition for each other and can learn tons from each other. As someone who dwells primarily in the internal realms of the mental - intellectual, emotional and spiritual - myself, I would definitely be drawn to someone who valued those things about me. Likewise, while Hermione has never been a big Quidditch fan, she at least knows about the game - how can she help it, being around Harry and Ron? - and Krum is, quite simply, one of the best. I'm sure there are lots of stats around about him that she can happily look up. She could probably "research" him to a certain extent, and that facet was probably appealing. All in all, I don't find it that strange. Neither of them like pretentious people, and Hermione is anything but pretentious. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From srsiriusblack at aol.com Thu Jan 9 09:23:35 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 04:23:35 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: mistake??? Message-ID: <67.6be4bf7.2b4e9997@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49480 In a message dated 09/01/2003 03:54:21 Eastern Standard Time, bboy_mn at yahoo.com writes: > For now it's considered a mistake that's been corrected. Although some > have indicated that it has only been corrected in the American > versions. Which only confuses the matter that much more. > Granted my books are early editions... not the US ones... argh.. yes. let's confuse it even more. I was just curious as to the ideas on it... However, I am preparing to start on the Italian and Spanish versions... Does this qualify as obsession or mere "scholarly curiosity"? -Snuffles hiding her head in HP wally shame ;) "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From srsiriusblack at aol.com Thu Jan 9 09:33:11 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 04:33:11 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Krum and Her-My-Oh-Ninny Message-ID: <146.74c2659.2b4e9bd7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49481 In a message dated 09/01/2003 04:21:37 Eastern Standard Time, jestahijinx at hotmail.com writes: > Likewise, while Hermione has > never been a big Quidditch fan, she at least knows about the game - how can > > she help it, being around Harry and Ron? - and Krum is, quite simply, one > of > the best. I'm sure there are lots of stats around about him that she can > happily look up. She could probably "research" him to a certain extent, > and > that facet was probably appealing. Ahh, I'm not so sure the Quidditch fame had much to do with Hermione's interest in Krum. Personally, I think it was despite this, as Hermione is painfully bad at remembering most things Quidditch. I imagine that it was somewhere in the library where they began speaking and discovering the attractive facts. I agree with you that Krum is attracted to her intellectual "athleticism" ( great way to word it, mind you ;)) but I think in turn Hermione realises that there is more to Krum than the Quidditch facade that all of the other girls in the school fancy oh-so-very-much-giggle-giggle-giggle. Hermione, though true in her friendship to Harry sees that fame, as Snape puts it "clearly isn't everything." Harry is a talented wizard, but she has had to help him out of a bind more than once. So, for Krum to be a part of her life, he would have to have a lot more to offer than just talent on the Quidditch pitch. -Snuffles ( who forgot to mention she took in a new rescue puppy who is fluffy brown, very bright and a girl; thus she instantly became Hermione) "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Thu Jan 9 09:43:57 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 09:43:57 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Krum and Her-My-Oh-Ninny Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49482 Hello, Snuffles: > > Likewise, while Hermione has > > never been a big Quidditch fan, she at least knows about the game - how >can > > > > she help it, being around Harry and Ron? - and Krum is, quite simply, >one > > of > > the best. I'm sure there are lots of stats around about him that she >can > > happily look up. She could probably "research" him to a certain extent, > > and > > that facet was probably appealing. > >Ahh, I'm not so sure the Quidditch fame had much to do with Hermione's >interest in Krum. Personally, I think it was despite this, as Hermione is >painfully bad at remembering most things Quidditch. > Um, Snuffles, I believe you misunderstood me. I don't think his *fame* per se has anything to do with it at all. But if she'd been totally ignorant about Quidditch and had still been taking the position that it was all bloody boring, I don't think she would have been appealing to him, either. I think she knows enough on an intellectual level to understand the mechanics of the game and say things like, "Right, you're the Seeker from Bulgaria; my friend Harry is a Seeker, too." It's not the fame; the Quidditch bits about Krum are data points for Hermione, and since he's *publicized* because of it, that means there are things in print about him - probably where he was born, his favorite likes and dislikes, etc. I could see it being publicised, for example, that his favorite treat was blueberry muffins, and Hermione doing some homework that happened to result in blueberry muffins when they were hanging out together. That kind of thing. >I imagine that it was somewhere in the library where they began speaking >and >discovering the attractive facts. I agree with you that Krum is attracted >to >her intellectual "athleticism" ( great way to word it, mind you ;)) but I >think in turn Hermione realises that there is more to Krum than the >Quidditch >facade that all of the other girls in the school fancy >oh-so-very-much-giggle-giggle-giggle. > >Hermione, though true in her friendship to Harry sees that fame, as Snape >puts it "clearly isn't everything." Harry is a talented wizard, but she has >had to help him out of a bind more than once. So, for Krum to be a part of >her life, he would have to have a lot more to offer than just talent on the >Quidditch pitch. > >-Snuffles > I'm sure he does. It's not made really clear just how bright he is - whether he's a slouch academically or not. But the pursuit of excellence itself takes rigor and discipline, not just natural talent, and possibly Krum diagramming out Quidditch plays while they're talking can be taken as some sort of vector exercise by Hermione - she's not going to go "gee, wow, how do you think of such things, mah li'l' ol' head would bust", but she would be able to appreciate the theory of directional changes and speed and all that sort of thing - even if she could care less if she ever saw a Quidditch match again. And who knows - maybe Krum has a favorite subject or two, and they study together or discuss it. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From kewiromeo at aol.com Thu Jan 9 09:13:54 2003 From: kewiromeo at aol.com (kewiromeo at aol.com) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 04:13:54 EST Subject: Avada kedavra-abracadabra Message-ID: <156.1a0e60fe.2b4e9752@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49483 Tyler wrote: I was thinking about the Avada Kedavra curse today, how it sounds like 'cadaver', which is fitting, and also how it sounds like 'abracadabra'. I checked the HP list of names http://www.theninemuses.net/hp/list.html and found this: "Avada kedavra" is an Aramaic phrase that means "may the thing be destroyed." Then, I looked 'abracadabra' up in the Penguin Dictionary of Symbols and read this: "The word derives from the Hebrew 'abreg ad habra' meaning 'strike dead with thy lightning'". This seems even closer to the avada kedavra, what with the flash of green light and all. 'Abracadabra' has symbolic meaning as a protection from evil as well, but it deals with evil vanishing forever from the world never to return, which obviously did not happen in GoF. I don't know where I'm going with this, just found it interesting. Me: I had already wrote a little thing on this on my first message to this board. Since I have a little knowledge in hebrew matters I will let you in on a little secret. Abrah means create and cadabra means as I speak. The origional introductory verse would be that. It is a simple Create as I speak message. I'm not that good in Hebrew, but if you like the strike down in lightning part, so be it. But I'll stick with the simple meaning of the words I have. Tzvi of Brooklyn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bobafett at harbornet.com Thu Jan 9 09:34:50 2003 From: bobafett at harbornet.com (BoBaFeTT) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 01:34:50 -0800 Subject: Krums Future References: <67.6be4bf7.2b4e9997@aol.com> Message-ID: <001601c2b7c2$5c2a2700$86a242cf@home> No: HPFGUIDX 49484 Needless to say I doubt his school year was completed due to the headmaster running off Perhaps it was but for now lets say it didnt. He would need to repeat his last year. (presumably if he chose to) If he went to Hogwarts where his precious Her-my-oh-ney is I would have little doubt a guy like him would be in Gryffindor. Assuming that's true he would undoubtedly play on the quidditch team and being the most experienced he would be a good candidate for captain. Who would be seeker though? I would think Harry would remain seeker seeing he has only failed to get the snitch once. (when the dementors came in book 3) Perhaps Krum would like to be a keeper for a change anyway. So there's my theory pick away ;) BoBafeTT [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tahewitt at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 06:25:18 2003 From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 22:25:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ron a seer/Harry in Azkaban In-Reply-To: <1042086509.5183.61380.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030109062518.33289.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49485 I just bounced the 'Ron is a seer' theory off of my partner. He doesn't agree at all, he sees it as too far fetched. He sees Ron as being like Xander on Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Loyal, perceptive, dependable, good to have around, but no real super powers or extra special talents. I like the seer theory myself, even if it may be a bit of a stretch. Then again, Ron is my favorite charecter in the HP books, as such I'm rooting for him to have something unique. On an unrelated topic, having parts of the 5th book set in Azkaban seems to be a real possibility. I just don't want Harry to be sent there. Having Harry go there to get someone else out, maybe, but I'd really hate to have him imprisoned there. The two things I'd LEAST like to see in the 5th book-Ron dying, and Harry imprisoned at Azkaban. These are purely emotional responses, either one of those events could make for interesting reading. Tyler __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From srsiriusblack at aol.com Thu Jan 9 10:31:56 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 05:31:56 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron a seer/Harry in Azkaban Message-ID: <109.1e5c87e9.2b4ea99c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49486 In a message dated 09/01/2003 05:02:13 Eastern Standard Time, tahewitt at yahoo.com writes: > > I just bounced the 'Ron is a seer' theory off of my > partner. He doesn't agree at all, he sees it as too > far fetched. He sees Ron as being like Xander on Buffy > the Vampire Slayer: Loyal, perceptive, dependable, > good to have around, but no real super powers or extra > special talents. > I think that there are aspects to Ron's personality and talents which have yet to be fully explored in the books. Perhaps it is just an oversight - Ron's strategical talents- see his exceptional chess mind. This may seem mundane at first glance, however, I truly believe there is something special in Ron that is yet to be truly divulged to us, the readers. IMHO, Ron's exceptional talents will be revealed in the coming tales. He has shown his inner struggles and a great character thus far in the books, and I for one do not buy into the idea that he is merely a wizard. I truly believe that at some point we will see an exceptional Ron. JKR, imho, has been building this for us for while. Ron needs to prove himself separate from his brothers and Harry. I have ever faith that he will. Ron, in his own right, is exceptional. -Suffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 10:33:17 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana ) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 10:33:17 -0000 Subject: Krums Future In-Reply-To: <001601c2b7c2$5c2a2700$86a242cf@home> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49487 BobafeTT offered: > He would need to repeat his last year. (presumably if he chose to) > If he went to Hogwarts where his precious Her-my-oh-ney is I would have little doubt a guy like him would be in Gryffindor. > Assuming that's true he would undoubtedly play on the quidditch team and being the most experienced he would be a good candidate for captain. > Who would be seeker though? > I would think Harry would remain seeker seeing he has only failed to get the snitch once. (when the dementors came in book 3) > Perhaps Krum would like to be a keeper for a change anyway. Me: A good theory, however, I think Harry will become the new Quidditch captain - no quotes to prove it, just a hunch. I don't doubt that Hermione will be talking about her visit to Krum over the summer as well, but I don't think Ron will want to hear about any of it directly from her. Ron will probably pester Harry for details *after* Hermione tells Harry about her summer, though. :D A sidenote, though, if Krum is technically a *professional* Quidditch player, even though he was still in school at the time, would he be allowed to play on a school Quidditch team? Just wondering out loud. Diana From risako at nexusanime.com Thu Jan 9 09:35:44 2003 From: risako at nexusanime.com (Melissa McCarthy) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 05:35:44 -0400 Subject: Questions: Dumbledore as student, other magic schools, Potter money, Muggle money exchange Message-ID: <002f01c2b7c2$7c1b5660$59a794d1@vaio> No: HPFGUIDX 49488 These are just some things I've been pondering recently. My apologies again if any have been answered! The archives are vast and Yahoo is uncooperative ^^ 1) Was Dumbledore a student at Hogwarts or at a different wizard school when he was young? If he was at Hogwarts, which House was he in? Was this ever answered in the books? 2) Do the other magic schools have Houses as well? Argh... I must reread GoF, as I seem to remember something about this. Does the Muggle education system of a particular country affect that country's wizard school(s) in any way? 3) Where did Lily and James Potter get all of the money they left to Harry? Was James' family rich? The Dursleys, though well-off, aren't amazingly rich, and most of their money probably comes from the business Vernon owns; did the Evanses leave Lily all or most of their money (we know they were proud of having a witch in the family), cutting out Petunia? It seems likely to me, though, that if Petunia had been cut out of the will, she would have complained about it, loudly, repeatedly, and at great length ^^ so it's more probable that it was the Potters, not the Evanses, who were rich. 4) That's got me thinking, how do wizard children born to Muggle families get any money to spend in Diagon Alley and at Hogsmeade? Is there some sort of Muggle/wizard currency-exchange service? Would wizards have any use whatsoever for Muggle money? Ron has never seen Muggle money, so that suggests it can't be used in the WW. Melissa, who thinks too much about pointless things ^^; [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From G.Burkhard at gmx.de Thu Jan 9 09:11:51 2003 From: G.Burkhard at gmx.de (Bugfix) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 10:11:51 +0100 Subject: mistake??? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49489 * "Steve " wrote: Snuffles: >> GoF UK Edition Cloth pg 579, right after Bertha Jorkins appears >> from the wand: >> >> ...edited.... >> 'You're mother's coming...' he said quietly. 'She wants to see >> you... it will be all right... hold on...' >> >> ...edited... >> >> Now looking to the US Paperback edition, page 667 same place: >> >> ...edited... >> 'You're father's coming...' she said quietly. 'Hold on for your >> father... it will be all right.... hold on..." > bboy_mn: [snip] > For now it's considered a mistake that's been corrected. Although some > have indicated that it has only been corrected in the American > versions. Which only confuses the matter that much more. Now me: Actually, it has also been corrected in UK editions. My Bloomsbury paperback reads on page 579: 'Your father's coming ...' she said quietly, 'He wants to see you ... it will be all right ... hold on ...' But I've heard about later editions in which it was changed back (and have no idea if this is true or not) ... Bugfix -- [if you can read this, no text portions of this message have been removed] From fanfictionmaniac at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jan 9 11:13:01 2003 From: fanfictionmaniac at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Chris=20Langley?=) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 11:13:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry a Seer? In-Reply-To: <140.7421ad7.2b4e15c1@cs.com> Message-ID: <20030109111301.64909.qmail@web40709.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49490 Well that would explain a lot. Harry seeing what happened to Frank, the gardener in book 4, and what happened with his parnets and such. chris --------------------------------- With Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maxpayne633 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 11:26:24 2003 From: maxpayne633 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?maxxx=20payne?=) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 11:26:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Questions: Dumbledore as student, other magic schools, Potter money, Muggle money exchange In-Reply-To: <002f01c2b7c2$7c1b5660$59a794d1@vaio> Message-ID: <20030109112624.29585.qmail@web40107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49491 Melissa McCarthy wrote: 4) That's got me thinking, how do wizard children born to Muggle families get any money to spend in Diagon Alley and at Hogsmeade? Is there some sort of Muggle/wizard currency-exchange service? Would wizards have any use whatsoever for Muggle money? Ron has never seen Muggle money, so that suggests it can't be used in the WW. Melissa, who thinks too much about pointless things ^^; me: In CoS, we saw that Hermione's parents are exchanging Muggle money at Gringgot's Bank when Harry and the Weasleys enter into it. Plus in PS/SS, when Harry first came into the bank, he saw goblins weighing Rubies. So wizards from muggle families can use either muggle money or pieces of jewelry to exchange for galleons, sickles, or knuts. maxxx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- With Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 13:58:45 2003 From: myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com (myphilosophy2001 ) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 13:58:45 -0000 Subject: Gift-Giver Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49492 Was it ever definitively proven or revealed who gave Harry the invisibility cloak? I know it's been discussed in fandom circles that Dumbledore passed the cloak to Harry in PS/SS, but for the life of me, I can't recall reading anything in canon that explicitly settled the question. I mean, we know McGonagal gave Harry the Nimbus 2000 and Sirius gave him the Firebolt, but I have no such canon-based memory regarding the invisibility cloak. I've tried to sift through the archives but could find nothing that satisfied my inquiry, so I'm sorry if I'm revisiting well-trod ground. Have I overlooked something or am I correct in failing to remember any canon-based revelation as to who gave Harry the invisibility cloak? -Jessica :) From gandharvika at hotmail.com Thu Jan 9 14:00:18 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 14:00:18 +0000 Subject: (FILK) He's A Werewolf Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49493 He's A Werewolf (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _She's A Woman_ by the Beatles) >From their album Beatles 65 Midi: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle06.html Dedicated to Anne U...sing this one real loud, okay? Hermione: Lupin's the Dark Arts Professor He was Lockhart's successor Though his robes are awfully ragged His style of teaching's so much better Lupin, the Dark Arts Professor Showed us all Boggarts and Kappas But found out that Lupin had a secret I know what it is One day Lupin was absent Snape became his replacement Snape was being evil that day He called me a Know-It-All That day Lupin was absent Gave us all a lot of homework How to recognize and kill a werewolf Now I know why He's a werewolf, but I don't care He's a werewolf, but I'm not scared Thought he was helping Black out So mad, I started to shout Hadn't told anybody yet Had been covering up for him Thought he was helping Black out Recognized all of his symptoms I told them all about Lupin's secret I know what he is He's a werewolf, Professor Lupin He's a werewolf, now I trust him Lupin was the Dark Arts Professor He was Lockhart's successor He really knew how to teach us 'Bout Defense Against the Dark Arts Lupin, the Dark Arts Professor Really sad to see him leave us We will never forget Remus Lupin I don't care what he is He's a werewolf, he's a werewolf... -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From lupinesque at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 14:19:40 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z ) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 14:19:40 -0000 Subject: Filk: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, Prongs, and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49495 (trying this again with apologies to those not on webview) Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, Prongs, and Snape to the tune of Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (Hear the original at http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle13.html) Dedicated to Anne U. 'cause it's all her fault ;-) Scene: The Shrieking Shack LUPIN and SIRIUS: It was thirteen years ago today* That Peter tried to end the play With a plot that did two of us in And put us in a Wormtailspin But here we are again at last The original Hogwarts cast Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, Prongs and Snape! LUPIN, SIRIUS, PETER and SNAPE: It's Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, Prongs, and Snape We'll all be on the grounds tonight Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, Prongs, and Snape We're doing this reunion right Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, Prongs, and Snape Ghostly voice of JAMES, offstage: I wish that I could be there It sure would be a thrill To hang that rat up by the tail And cause Snape's second plot to fail But my son will be my sub. SNAPE, sneering: I don't really wanna stop the show But it's time for Sirius to go Your story is Riddikulus So come along without a fuss There's a creature with the hots for you And I've been waiting all these years . . . Moony, Padfoot, off to Azkaban! HARRY, RON, and HERMIONE: No-- you-- don't! (They hit Snape with a triple Expelliarmus as Gail takes the stage for a filk of "With a Little Help from My Friends" . . . http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/49055) Amy Z *give or take a few months From gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 14:11:48 2003 From: gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com (gingersnape1966 ) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 14:11:48 -0000 Subject: Krums Future In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49496 Diana and BoBaFeTT wondered about Krum's future as a possible Hogwarts student under the assumption that he would have to repeat his last year due to the escape of his headmaster. While it would be very cool to see Krum and Harry play Quidditch together, and it would heat up the Ron/Hermione/Krum triangle (hopefully with the real Krum's arm remaining intact), I doubt that Krum, and thus all 7th year Durmstrang students, would have to repeat a year. Remember in CoS when Dumbledore got kicked out? McGonagall took over, as she had been Deputy Headmistress. I'm sure Durmstrang has a similar backup plan. I hope I did this right. This is my first post and my computer knowledge is limited (not to mention my computer is infused with veela hair). Best regards, Ginger From dorigen at hotmail.com Thu Jan 9 14:31:26 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 14:31:26 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Gift-Giver Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49497 >Have I overlooked something or am I correct in failing to remember >any canon-based revelation as to who gave Harry the invisibility >cloak? At the end of *Sorcerer's Stone*, Dumbledore tells Harry that his father left it with Dumbledore to pass on to him. (He never says when or why this happened. I would guess it was before James and Lily went into serious hiding from Voldemort, but I can't figure out a good reason why you wouldn't take an invisibility cloak with you if you wanted to be hard to find ...) Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8 is here: Try it free* for 2 months http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup From melclaros at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 14:55:03 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros ) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 14:55:03 -0000 Subject: Fleur - Not DADA, how about Ancient Runes In-Reply-To: <20030109023030.36020.qmail@web40508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49499 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Maria Kirilenko wrote: > > Pickle Jimmy wrote:: > On the other subject - Her love interest. IMHO it would be easier to > write that Fleur was devoured by a hippogriff than to have her fall > for Snape... > > Me: > > Well noticed!! That would be yucky. Me: VERY yucky--I can't imagine Snape seeing anything in her and am mystified at all the speculation here...Fleur as DADA teacher, Fleur as Snape's apprentice...oh yeah, how long would that last before she ended up as an ingredient in something? > > Me again: > She seems shallow and rather a little girl - Harry is more mature than she is, being 3 years younger. Of course, she may be wonderful and all that and we just don't know about it, but she IMNSHO does not deserve Lupin, nor would she bear Remus' cross along with him. been removed] Me: Personally I think if she shows up again at all, even in book 7 it will be too soon. Unless she shows up as puddle. Or a greasy black stain. Melpomene, who can't stand Fleur From kewiromeo at aol.com Thu Jan 9 13:53:14 2003 From: kewiromeo at aol.com (kewiromeo at aol.com) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 08:53:14 EST Subject: Moody, Krum, Fleur, and Snape Message-ID: <12.2b5f6c24.2b4ed8ca@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49500 Simple and to the point. Dumbledore and Moody made a contract, perhaps only verbal that he would be the DADA teacher for only a year. He was locked up in the trunk and therefore he has not fulfilled his end of the agreement. Back in the day, when the 5th book was supposed to come out, I remember someone saying that Moody will be back and he will be even cooler than the fake one, so I dont see any reason for him not to come back. As for Krum and Fleur, well, there aren't too many positions opened, but if there are 1000 or so people at Hogwarts, what's wrong with a few more teachers. Put them anywhere. Every guy loves Fleur, and who wouldn't? Who knows, Snape might even be the new DADA teacher, why not? That's what he's all about. I like Snape. I feel his pain. I doubt he was some snob like Malfoy was, he never had cronies either (or not that we know of). And it's no wonder he's always on edge, plenty of people want to kill him (DEs). He is the only person to treat Harry like any normal child. On the other hand, why was Snape so reluctant to believe Harry's story in PoA. Was it so hard to believe that Pettigrew had come back? Ok it was. Now that he knows, or at least I think he knows that Pettigrew is back, he might lighten up to Harry. Harry isn't insane in Snape's mind, and perhaps telling this all to Fudge (the Harry mind control story) was just to throw him off. I understand he hates Sirius, but people hold grudges. So much I want to say, so little sleep. I shall remember later. Tzvi of Brooklyn "Abra Kadabra" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Heleen at ptdprolog.net Thu Jan 9 14:13:22 2003 From: Heleen at ptdprolog.net (Heleen Greenwald) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 09:13:22 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Animagi.............. References: Message-ID: <001b01c2b7e9$45377300$a500a8c0@boghouse> No: HPFGUIDX 49501 Once they finally master the spell, do they get to pick what animal they become? I haven't seen any evidence that says so, but I get the feeling that each animagus just "changes" and which animal is left up to either "fate" or maybe some decision of the "liscencing authority"........no, that would leave out the unregistered ones........ but anyway, you get the idea. Any theories? Douglas Iowa City, Iowa Hufflepuff forever! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maybe they change into an animal that suits their personality. Like, maybe it isn't a conscious decission which animal they become, their body & mind just make them turn into *X*. Just a thought Phillipa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 14:43:56 2003 From: gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com (gingersnape1966 ) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 14:43:56 -0000 Subject: Animagi.............. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49502 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dmitri Mosier " wrote: > Once they finally master the spell, do they get to pick what animal > they become? > me: I have wondered this myself. I think to some extent, they do. Rita would have chosen an inconspicous animal capable of hiding in small places. When Lupin was telling Harry about his father and friends becoming animagi, he said, "Peter, as the smallest, could slip beneath the Willow's attacking branches and touch the knot that freezes it... Sirius and James transformed into such large animals, they were able to keep a werewolf in check." (PoA ch.18) This would indicate to me that they had made some choice in their forms and had planned them according to their need. Any theories on our McGonagall? Best regards (and Hurrah for Hufflepuff), Ginger From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Thu Jan 9 15:48:41 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 10:48:41 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Questions: Dumbledore as student, other magic schools, Po... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49503 Melissa: > 4) That's got me thinking, how do wizard children born to Muggle families > get any money to spend in Diagon Alley and at Hogsmeade? Is there some > sort of Muggle/wizard currency-exchange service? Cassie (me): Yes. To Quote CoS: "...'Oh, you're changing muggle money. Molly, look!' He (Mr. Weasley) pointed excitedly at the ten pound notes in Mr. Granger's hand. .." (chapter 4, pg.57 if you have the american version) Melissa again: 3) Where did Lily and James Potter get all of the money they left to Harry? Was James' family rich? The Dursleys, though well-off, aren't amazingly rich, and most of their money probably comes from the business Vernon owns; did the Evanses leave Lily all or most of their money (we know they were proud of having a witch in the family), cutting out Petunia? It seems likely to me, though, that if Petunia had been cut out of the will, she would have complained about it, loudly, repeatedly, and at great length ^^ so it's more probable that it was the Potters, not the Evanses, who were rich. Me (Yes, I know I'm doing this out of order ^^; Sorry ^^;;) It is entirely possible that the Evans may have left more to Lily than to Petunia (after all, from what we've seen from Petunia, Lily seems to have been the 'favourite'). If it was on Lily's side where Harry got his fortune, well, perhaps it wasn't exactly a fortune in the muggle world but turned into one when exchanged to wizard money? Does it say how much each type of money is in each world anywhere? If it was on his father's side...Well, it seems we know very little about the Potters', but it's also entirely possible that he got his inheritance from that side. Or it could've been a mix from both. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 16:39:05 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 16:39:05 -0000 Subject: Animagi.............. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49504 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dmitri Mosier " wrote: > Once they finally master the spell, do they get to pick what animal > they become? > > I haven't seen any evidence that says so, but I get the feeling that > each animagus just "changes" and which animal is left up to > either "fate" or maybe some decision of the "liscencing > authority"........no, that would leave out the unregistered > ones........ > > but anyway, you get the idea. > > Any theories? > > Douglas > Iowa City, Iowa > Hufflepuff forever! bboy_mn: JKR has given some indications in interviews that the type of animal you transform into is based on your personality. But I can read that two ways; 1.)your personality dictates the animal you get, 2.)your personality dictates the animal you choose. Ask yourself what animal you would choose? JKR thought she would be an otter, apparently, she has some affinity for otters, but she said it in a way that implied that it would be dictated not choosen. That seems pretty arbitary to just allow nature to assign an animal form to you. That does reveal something about the persons inner-self that may not normally be evident. But considering all the bad, worthless, pointless animal form possibilities, I don't know if I would want to take all the time, effort, and most important risk only to discover that I transformed into a fruit fly with 24 hour lifespan. Rita Skeeter does 'bug' people, so a bug would seem natural. But being a bug is not very safe. Looking for a distraction from the conversation he was overhearing, Harry could have easily squashed her as she sat on the reindeer listening to Hagrid. Hermione or Krum could have just as easly squashed Rita when she was in Hermione's hair after the second task. True being a bug does give you a very high degree of stealth, but it's leaves you pretty defenseless. Now Sirius dog form has a reasonably high degree of stealth capability. A big dog like that can travel long distances although not very fast. It also has high survivability and defensive capabilities. To survive in dog form, Sirius can eat rats and even somewhat spoiled rancid food that would make a human sick. He also has the power, strength, speed, and sharp teeth necessary to capture his own food; like rabbits and rats. He has good defensive capability in that no one is likely to attack a dog the size of a small bear. Every animal has pluses and minuses, a monkey has good manual dexterity, but poor stealth. Pretty hard not to spot a monkey walking around the English country side. An Eagle has great survivability, can easily get food, and has reasonably good defensive capability. I wouldn't want to be attacked by an eagle. Plus, eagles are protected so it's unlikely that anyone would shoot you. You have good stealth capability and the ability to travel long distances. So, if I were going to tranform into an animal, I would want one that had a good blend of stealth, survivability, transportability, and defensive capability. An eagle would be nice, but a bug would really suck. I know that doesn't quite answer your question, but I find it hard to believe that this is all left to chance. just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 17:27:39 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 17:27:39 -0000 Subject: Krums Future & Quidditch In-Reply-To: <001601c2b7c2$5c2a2700$86a242cf@home> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49505 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "BoBaFeTT" wrote: > Needless to say I doubt his school year was completed due to the > headmaster running off ... ... ... He would need to repeat his > last year. > > Assuming that's true he would undoubtedly play on the quidditch team > ... ... ... > > Who would be seeker though? > I would think Harry would remain seeker ... ... ... > > Perhaps Krum would like to be a keeper for a change anyway. > > So there's my theory pick away ;) > > BoBafeTT bboy_mn comments: I think both Krum and Fleur are going to be in the next book, and the relationship aspect is a lot more complicated that Ron/Hermione/Krum. It's more like /Harry/Hermione/Cho/, /Ron/Hermione/Krum/, /Harry/Ginny/Colin/, /Ron/Hermoine/Fleur/, /Harry/Hermione/Ron/, and more.... As far a Quidditch, the position that is open is Keeper, but after the fifth year, nearly the whole team will be gone, and they will be starting all over again. So my vote is for Ron to be Keeper, and Krum to volunteer to coach a reserve team so that they are ready to step in next year when the Chases and Beaters leave. That means there will be a secondary story about all the new Quidditch players. We know that Neville and Dean don't have any previous (before school) experience flying, although, now that they have had some limited experience at school, they may have demonstrated some natural ability. Seamus seems, based on his bragging, to be a capable flyer. Although, I might be tainted by the movie, I don't picture Seamus as a very big guy, so he wouldn't make a good beater. That leaves him as a Chaser. I think finding Beaters is going to be the hardest task. We really don't see any Gryffindor girls who seem to have a serious interest in Quidditch, which means Harry as the only remiaining member, will have to choose from the underclassmen. Colin and Dennis are pretty small guys, they might make Chasers, but they won't make good Beaters. I think if they do assemble a reserve team, they will have to introduce some new characters. Based on know foreground characters, there simple don't seem to be enough to form a team. But I still think it will be Ron who gets the job of Keeper. Ron's biggest problem is not having a decent broom. I'm sure he could probably find a school broom that would be good enough for a Keeper who doesn't have to do a lot of flying. Maybe Wood who has been signed to a progessional team and will certainly have a new broom, will donate his old broom to Ron. Krum coming to Hogwarts- The having to repeat his last year idea is good, but I think he will come to Hogwarts for some 'post graduate' work. Since there is a lot of emphasis on Dark Arts at Durmstrang, Krum may feel that other areas of his education were neglected by the school. So he will attend Hogwarts for a year to round out his education... and of course, be close to Hermione. Fleur at Hogwarts- I think she will be there but I'm not sure in what capacity. If she is DADA teacher, I don't see her getting a lot of respect or cooperation from the students because she is clearly not up to the job. However, her goal is to improve her English, so she may take on an unpaid position as a teaching assistant. But what subject though? What talent has she demonstrated that would indicate which subject she would be good at? ....don't know. None that I can see. I'm sure she is an adequate witch, but other than beguiling boys, what is she good at? Her presents certainly does complicate the Harry/Ron/Hermione/Krum quadrangle. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 17:54:38 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 17:54:38 -0000 Subject: Moody, Krum, Fleur, and Snape In-Reply-To: <12.2b5f6c24.2b4ed8ca@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49506 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, kewiromeo at a... wrote: Tzvi of Brooklyn: > ...edited... I remember someone saying that Moody will be back and > he will be even cooler than the fake one, so I dont see any reason > for him not to come back. > -end this part- bboy_mn: That would be JKR herself who said a way cool Moody would be back. -end this part- Tzvi of Brooklyn: > Who knows, Snape might even be the new DADA teacher, why not? > ...edited... > -end this part- bboy_mn: Interesting, can't imagine why I never thought of it. But, JKR implied, maybe even said, it was going to be a woman. - end this part- Tzvi of Brooklyn: > > On the other hand, why was Snape so reluctant to believe Harry's > story in PoA? ...edited... > > So much I want to say, so little sleep. I shall remember later. > > Tzvi of Brooklyn > "Abra Kadabra" bboy_mn: If Snape's secret mission, as I believe it is, was to go back to Voldemort and claim that he was really a double agent, pretending to spy for Dumbledore while passing him relavant but mostly useless information (at least, that will be his story) and that in reality, he was bringing more important information back to Voldemort, then Snape will see Wormtail. He'll see him face to face when he goes to visit Voldemort. If Snape's version of the Shrieking Shack events is true then Snape is poised to be a hero; Order of Merlin. He captures the most notorious criminal alive, and does it single handed. If Harry's version of event is true, then Snape looks like a childish idiot. Certianly, Snape favored the 'Order of Merlin' version. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jan 9 17:57:38 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 17:57:38 -0000 Subject: Against Evil!Lupin responses Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49507 Maria and Scott have come gallantly to Lupin's defense. I am glad. One of my worst fears in posting the Evil Lupin theory was that I might be giving the game away. Fortunately, cognitive dissonance is the con artist's (and the mystery writer's) best friend--as long as Harry still has faith in Lupin, I might as well be howling at the moon. Maria said: >>First off, I wouldn't say that we know all about JKR to make assumptions about what she would or wouldn't do. Secondly, Lupin and Sirius *don't* have the same narrative function. Yes, they are James' friends, but Ron and Hr are Harry's friends too... Both of them couldn't be traitors - so how can we say that 2 of James' friends are traitors? (Am I making sense? L and S are sooo different, and they play such different roles in the story. BTW, don't Fred and George have the same narrative function? Could one of them be a traitor? )<< Lupin and Sirius have different personalities, no argument there. But they have very similar background, the same relationship to Harry (which Hermione and Ron definitely *don't* have) and to the wizarding world at large. The only thing that good!Lupin can do, narratively, that Sirius can't, is turn into a werewolf at an inconvenient time--and I don't think that's enough. Ron and Hermione bubble over with conflict. So much so, that some of our most prominent listees (waves at list-mom Penny and the crew of the good SHIP H/H) think they'll never be reconciled. Even Fred and George have their disputes. But the strongest image of Sirius and Lupin is when they stand shoulder to shoulder, ready to blast poor Pettigrew into the next world, both seeking to avenge James, or so we are led to think. And Harry stands up to them, "facing the wands." Dumbledore says there is now a life-debt between Harry and Pettigrew. But is that alone enough to create a life-debt? Sirius tells Harry that James saved Snape "at great risk to himself." The element of jeopardy is not there if neither Sirius nor Lupin is, in truth, a murderer. I think that must be an essential, or Harry would owe a life-debt to Snape for keeping him from falling off his broom in Book One, and another to Dumbledore for breaking his fall at the Hufflepuff/Gryffindor match in Book Three. Scott wrote: >>Dumbledore trusts Lupin<< Does he? I think I just proved he does not, since he obviously believes that there is a life-debt between Pettigrew and Harry. But in any case, Dumbledore hired the obviously untrustworthy Lockhart, and kept Quirrell on after Snape had begun to suspect him. Dumbledore sent Sirius to lie low at Lupin's, but that could have been to keep Lupin under surveillance. Scott: >>Second point. Lupin's greatest fear, as shown by the boggart, is the Full moon. Now, I can only guess this is because he's afraid of turning into a werewolf and hurting innocent people. I'm sorry, but if Lupin were evil, why would he be afraid of this?<< Sorry, but when Lupin talks about why he loathes his transformations, he never mentions a fear of harming innocent people. He talks about losing his human mind, he talks about being separated from humans to bite, the pain he goes through, and the way he scratches and bites himself. It's only as he's leaving Hogwarts (and Crookshanks isn't there to call his bluff) that he mentions that he "might have bitten any of you"--and says that's a point he didn't see till "after last night"!! Scott: >>Third Point. If Lupin were a Voldemort supporter whose job it was to protect Harry, why would he have resigned at the end of the year? I don't think Dumbledore would have fired him, though I can see why he accepted Lupin's resignation (unlike Hagrid). << The theory has undergone some refinement since my original post. Originally, I didn't think Voldemort could have sent Lupin to get Pettigrew, since Lupin says, "Everyone thought Sirius killed Peter...I believed it myself --until I saw the map tonight" But then I realized that Pettigrew had faked his death *twice,* and that Lupin could refer with perfect Crookshanks-vetted honesty to the second "death". So Lupin and Voldemort believed that Pettigrew was dead, until, like Sirius, Lupin saw the picture in the paper. It might have been the very same edition that carried Dumbledore's ad for a new DADA teacher. Lupin came to Hogwarts to get Peter, and resigned in order to chase Peter back to Voldemort. Scott: >>Fourth Point. If Lupin were a Voldemort supporter, why didn't he kill Sirius to silence him?<< I think he tried. Twice. Who called the Dementors on to the grounds at the Quidditch match? Lupin *says* they came because they were hungry and the excitement of the match drew them. Really? But why didn't they come to the earlier matches, and why did they only come when Sirius was there? Why did they come after Sirius again at the end of PoA? If they can be summoned mentally, then Lupin in wolf-form could have called them, provided he had had his potion, of course. Scott: >>Fifth Point, part A. If Lupin were a Voldemort supporter, why wasn't he trying to help Voldemort regain his strength? part B. If he wasn't trying to help Voldemort regain his strength, then he was probably under orders to watch Harry, and it would have had to be a very,very important order (WHY DID HE RESIGN?!). Note that in GoF, Voldemort doesn't mention another Loyal supporter aside from Crouch Jr. (or, he could have been talking about Lupin, but then why didn't he mention Crouch Jr.- doesn't make sense)<< Even a tame werewolf couldn't tend to uglybaby!Voldemort. How would it milk Nagini? And Lupin isn't much of a potion maker, so he's probably not up to making the venom-unicorn's blood cocktail that uglybaby persists on, either. The Wolfsbane potion must be hard to come by in dark Albanian forests, anyway. As for possession, a werewolf would be regarded with suspicion, so even in human form Lupin wouldn't make a good vehicle. Imagine what would have happened if Lupin had shown up in a turban! I don't know whether the flesh of a faithful werewolf would have worked in the re-embodiment potion. But one must doubt it. I don't suppose Voldemort wanted to take any chance he'd be reincarnated as a werewolf! It's true that Voldemort must have been lying about having only one faithful supporter. But Voldemort does lie, you know, even in his villain-tells-all speeches. As a matter of fact, he tells a lie about werewolves in CoS, when he accuses Hagrid of raising werewolf cubs under the bed. Scott: >>Sixth, and possibly the most important Point. It is our choices that make us who we are- not our heritage, or ability, afflictions, and so on. This is a central theme of the books. If Lupin were evil, well, he'd just be another typical werewolf, wouldn't he? The fact that Lupin is good, kind and dedicated person helps illustrate the aforementioned Theme to the reader. Lupin turning out evil would go against the 'our choices make us who we are' idea that is so strongly presented. Of course, he could turn out to be evil, and another werewolf who is truly good could be introduced into the story. << That's true only if Lupin is the only "monster" in the books--but he isn't. There's Hagrid, Madame Maxime, Fleur, and very possibly Flitwick and Snape. I think, if my theory holds up, that JKR will make it very clear that Lupin is evil because he made a choice, however fraught, to become a Voldemort supporter, not because the werewolf made him do it. I see Snape as Lupin's necessary counterpart, who can't pretend to be kind or gentle or innocent, but is now trying, very hard, to be good. Also, if Rowling wants to paint an honest picture of the harm done by prejudice, she has to show the damage done to people who buy into what's being said against them. Even Harry worried for a while that if he was descended from Slytherin, he might be evil. Lupin could have foundered in the same way. Or suppose that young Lupin, in his pride and over-confidence, thought he could fool Voldemort. After all, he'd fooled Dumbledore. What if Voldemort double-crossed him and arranged for his release in wolf-form, without the Animagi to protect him, and Lupin killed or bit somebody. Would he have had the courage to confess to Dumbledore, as it seems Snape did? Or could Voldemort have blackmailed Lupin and eventually won him to his cause? There are plenty of real-life examples of hostages going over to the enemy. Pippin From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 9 18:19:58 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak ) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 18:19:58 -0000 Subject: Krums Future & Quidditch AND Fleur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49508 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve " wrote: > Krum coming to Hogwarts- > The having to repeat his last year idea is good, but I think he > will come to Hogwarts for some 'post graduate' work. Since there > is a lot of emphasis on Dark Arts at Durmstrang, Krum may feel > that other areas of his education were neglected by the school. > So he will attend Hogwarts for a year to round out his > education... and of course, be close to Hermione. He probably won't *have* to repeat his last year, since in GoF it's stated that Champions were exempt from end of year tests anyway. In the British WW, this would have meant Cedric didn't have to take his NEWTS. This implies that having been School Champion is more prestigious on your job application forms than even the highest grade NEWTS. Given the amount of work and research Harry has to do, being Champion probably *is* harder and requires a higher quality of work than is normal in the last year of school. > Bboy: > Fleur at Hogwarts- > I think she will be there but I'm not sure in what capacity. If > she is DADA teacher, I don't see her getting a lot of respect or > cooperation from the students because she is clearly not up to the > job. However, her goal is to improve her English, so she may take > on an unpaid position as a teaching assistant. But what subject > though? What talent has she demonstrated that would indicate which > subject she would be good at? ....don't know. None that I can see. > I'm sure she is an adequate witch, but other than beguiling boys, > what is she good at? Judging by her selection of spells for the Triwizard Tournament (a sleeping charm or something for the dragon, and a Bubblehead Charm in the Second Task), Fleur's speciality is Charms, not DADA. The WW has no universities. This *possibly* means that they might use the Victorian 'pupil teacher' method of teacher training. In this method a student teacher still attends higher level lessons or is given one to one training by the 'trained' teacher, but is expected to take some of the lower level classes themselves (under supervision). So Flitwick would still be the Charms teacher, but Fleur might, for example, be taking the first years for most of their Charms lessons. This may explain the Quirrel contradiction; Hagrid and Percy both seem to know him, but DADA teachers seem to have had a notoriously short life span for some years before Harry arrives. In this theory Quirrel was NOT the DADA teacher until Harry's first year. Before that he was the DADA pupil teacher, still in training. Bboy: > Her presents certainly does complicate the Harry/Ron/Hermione/Krum > quadrangle. > How would Fleur come into contact with Harry? Well, Hogwarts doesn't seem to include foreign languages in the curriculum. Possibly languages are treated as 'extra curricular'; pupils can take them, but outside normal lesson time. We don't see much of 'extra curricular' activities (except for the Duelling Club) because Harry's on the House Quidditch team, and that takes up much of his 'free' time. So pupil teacher Fleur might also perhaps help out in, say, the French conversation club. Since she's part Veela, and hormones are likely to be rampant in Book 5, I can easily see Harry and Ron developing a sudden desire to learn French. Support for this theory comes from the fact that JKR trained to teach French, and would have absolutely no problem writing scenes partly in French... Pip!Squeak From duranta at pop.belmont.edu Thu Jan 9 17:36:40 2003 From: duranta at pop.belmont.edu (durant_a2002 ) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 17:36:40 -0000 Subject: Voldemort a Puppet? In-Reply-To: <012f01c2b6f7$73501280$23560043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49509 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" wrote: > It occurs to me, considering the character of Cornelius Fudge, that > Voldemort himself might be no more than a puppet---manipulated by someone > (high-ranking followers making suggestions in ways that ensure that he'll > likely take them, and selectively feeding him information) to ensure the > domination of the British wizarding world by others---and that Cornelius > Fudge might well be one of the puppet-masters. Me: I have been very interested in this theory of Voldemort being a puppet for quite some time, although I don't see there being much chance that Fudge is the puppet master. I have always thought that if Voldemort did answer to someone, it would turn out to be Dumbledore. After all, Dumbeldore is the only wizard that Voldemort has ever "feared." Yeah, he's afraid Dumbledore will kick his butt if he screws up the plan for immortality and world domiantion. And the fact that Voldemort has a feather from Dumbledore's phoenix in his wand, I know there are a million ways to speculate on how this happened, but it seems afully suspicious to me. The one who is always able to anticipate and know everything, may not be entirely trustworthy. I for one would love to see an ever-so-evil Dumbledore. I know that the gleam of triumph in his eyes has been interpreted to death, but it's there and can't be overlooked. It would be especially thrilling to see what Harry would do, since Dumbledore has spent the entirety of the four books building up Harry's trust in him. It has worked so far. Drew From urbana at charter.net Thu Jan 9 18:49:45 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne ) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 18:49:45 -0000 Subject: Voldemort a Puppet? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49510 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "durant_a2002 " wrote: >>I for one would love to see an ever-so-evil > Dumbledore. I know that the gleam of triumph in his eyes has been > interpreted to death, but it's there and can't be overlooked. It > would be especially thrilling to see what Harry would do, since > Dumbledore has spent the entirety of the four books building up > Harry's trust in him. It has worked so far. > > Drew AACK! This concept is making my head hurt. I'm fairly sure (though I don't have the web link memorized) that in one of her interviews JKR stated something very much like "Dumbledore represents everything good" or "Dumbledore is the personification of good". (Help, somebody!) I would like to trust what JKR has said about this. Usually when she wants to have a "fudge factor" (pardon the pun), she hems and haws about things, but IIRC there was no hemming or hawing involved in that particular instance. Evil!Dumbledore is simply not something my brain can accommodate, anyway. BTW - side note to Gail and Amy Z - thanks for the callouts! Since I barely contribute to this group, I was shocked and befuddled to see TWO filks dedicated to me, and on the same day! (The other 5,540 people are probably wondering about that as much as I am :-) Anne U (defender of GOOD!Dumbledore and Filker wannabe ... great with ideas, lousy at execution ;-) From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 19:10:33 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 11:10:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry a Seer? In-Reply-To: <20030109111301.64909.qmail@web40709.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030109191033.75673.qmail@web40501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49511 Chris Langley wrote: Well that would explain a lot. Harry seeing what happened to Frank, the gardener in book 4, and what happened with his parnets and such. Me: Yes, but Seeing and Divination is, as I understand it, the *ability to predict the future.* So while Harry "sees" what happens to Frank and Voldemort in Book 4 and remembers what happened when his parents dies, he doesn't predict the future - he sees the past and the present. That's not Seeing. I stick to the idea that Harry actually *remembers* the events of the Halloween in Godric's Hollow, and sees the dreams in GoF ('live') because of his connection with Voldemort (the failed curse). Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 21:37:37 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 21:37:37 -0000 Subject: Krum, Quidditch, NEWTs, Fleur, and More In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49512 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak " wrote: Pip!Squeak > > ...edited... in GoF it's stated that Champions were exempt from end > of year tests anyway. In the British WW, this would have meant > Cedric didn't have to take his NEWTS. > > ... edited... This implies that having been School Champion is more > prestigious on your job application forms than even the highest > grade NEWTS. > -end this part- bboy_mn: I never thought about N.E.W.T.s. Thinking about test like this, qualifications test, in the Muggle world, they are usually give at the school and by the school, but they are not actually part of the school. They are a national standard test. I guess to a limited extent we could compare them to SAT, which here in the US are used as college entrance test (sort of). I'm not sure how the 'O'-levels and 'A'-levels work in England, but I would suspect that it is similar to what I described above. It is a national standardized test that is given by the school but the administration and certification come from a higher body. What am I getting at? Well, I don't think you can get out of OWLs and NEWTs. They are your qualifications and certifications, and they are administered by a higher authority than the school. So I would guess the getting out of year end tests meant that you got out of your various class exams, but not the separate national qualifications exams. Although, Cedric's might have been postponed until the next year. That's just a guess, but it seems reasonable. ...at least to me. -bboy_mn - end this part- > > > Bboy_mn originally said: > > Fleur at Hogwarts- > > I think she will be there but I'm not sure in what capacity. ... > > ... ... However, her goal is to improve her English, so she may > > take on an unpaid position as a teaching assistant. Pip!Squeak added: > > Judging by her selection of spells for the Triwizard Tournament (a > sleeping charm or something for the dragon, and a Bubblehead Charm > in the Second Task), Fleur's speciality is Charms, not DADA. > -end this part- BBOY_MN: I agree, that probably would be her area of talent, although she didn't do to well against the Grindelows which would have only required knowledge of a charm. She could have been sufficiently caught off quard and over powered that she didn't have much of a chance to defend herself. -end this part- > > The WW has no universities. This *possibly* means that they might > use the Victorian 'pupil teacher' method of teacher training. In > this method a student teacher still attends higher level lessons or > is given one to one training by the 'trained' teacher, but is > expected to take some of the lower level classes themselves (under > supervision). > ...edited... >-end this part- bboy_mn comments: Sounds like you are describing graduate school, or at least the way it works here in the US. You go back and study that same classes, pay twice as much for those same classes, and this time you are expect to actually learn the subject, not just pass the test. Plus most grad student teach the intro classes. Proof that you know what you are talking about is being able to teach it to someone else. -end this part- > > Bboy originally said: > > Her presents certainly does complicate the Harry/Ron/Hermione/Krum > > quadrangle. > > -end this part- Pip!Squeak responded: > > How would Fleur come into contact with Harry? > ...edited... > -end this part- bboy_mn comments: The geometry of relationships that I see is so complex that it's hard to describe it as a love triangle or quadrangle. Basically, I see everyone in infatuated or appearing to be infatuated with the wrong person and too distracted to see the person who is infatuated with them. Ron will be jealous of Harry because Hermione pays him too much attention. Krum will also be jealous of Harry, but Ron will also be jealous of Krum. Harry on the other hand will continue to pine for Cho, and Ron despite his affection for Hermione will not be able to control his teen lust for Fleur. Then there is Ginny who is also infatuated with Harry, but I suspect someone else is infatuated with Ginny (perhaps Colin or Neville). Cho will seek solace in someone else, and that will make Harry jealous. Although, I think at some point, Harry and Cho will have a reconciliation, and realize that they are both mourning the samething, and that will bring them to comfort and understand each other, but a relationship built around comforting grief is pretty much doomed. I think this is how JKR will explore teen relationship; not a though a lot of snogging in the bushes. The threat of Voldemort in the next book is going to be overshadowed by a steaming cauldron of teenage angst. But in the end, it will all work out and they will part friends, each with the person they belong with. But that's just my opinion. -bboy_mn - end this part- Pip!Squeak continues: > > So pupil teacher Fleur might also perhaps help out in, say, the > French conversation club. Since she's part Veela, and hormones are > likely to be rampant in Book 5, I can easily see Harry and Ron > developing a sudden desire to learn French. > > Support for this theory comes from the fact that JKR trained to > teach French, and would have absolutely no problem writing scenes > partly in French... > > Pip!Squeak bboy_mn: Don't all teen boy develop a sudden interest in French ;). Off on a tangent, you are right about clubs and extracurricular activities. It seems that things do go on in the evening at Hogwarts. But it is only vaguely mentioned during the time when students were restricted to the house dorms and common rooms. I agree the reason we don't see these is because we see through Harry's eye and his dominating extracurricular activity is Quidditch. But there has to be a chess club. Is there any school in the UK that doesn't have a chess club? Perhaps even more than one? There are hundreds of private junior, teen, and adult chess clubs in the UK, certainly there must be wizard's chess clubs and lots of them. I keep thinking that, at some point, it will be chess that becomes Ron's claim to lifetime fame and fortune. McGonagall invites him to join or start a chess club. He demonstrate that the challenge and defeat of the McGonagall Philosopher's Stone chess set was no fluke, and the he really is a brilliant chess player. That leads to playing Tournement chess. If you read my fiction, although I doubt that you would, Ron is both the European and World Wizard's Chess Champion. (For reference, G25,000 for the European prize and G150,000 for the World prize. x5=?, x7.2=$) Not sure what that has to do with anything, but when you mentioned it, it really caught my attension that we don't see much for evening activities other than homework. There really has to be something to keep these kids occupied besides homework. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 21:47:09 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 21:47:09 -0000 Subject: Harry a Seer? In-Reply-To: <20030109191033.75673.qmail@web40501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49513 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Maria Kirilenko wrote: > > Chris Langley wrote: > > Well that would explain a lot. Harry seeing what happened to Frank, the gardener in book 4, and what happened with his parnets and such. > > > Me: > > Yes, but Seeing and Divination is, as I understand it, the *ability to predict the future.* So while Harry "sees" what happens to Frank and Voldemort in Book 4 and remembers what happened when his parents dies, he doesn't predict the future - he sees the past and the present. That's not Seeing. I stick to the idea that Harry actually *remembers* the events of the Halloween in Godric's Hollow, and sees the dreams in GoF ('live') because of his connection with Voldemort (the failed curse). > > Maria bboy_mn adds: Regardless of your personal definition of 'Seeing'; Harry is seeing. And regardless of the reason for his ability, he is still demonstrating psychic ability. Harry is clairvoyant. (1. The supposed power to SEE objects or events that cannot be perceived by the senses. 2. Acute intuitive insight or perceptiveness.) In a sense, clairvoyant means 'clear seeing'. Another term might be 'remote vision'. Even the US CIA has experimented with remote seeing during the cold war, and there are rumors that the project has been revived. They attempted to use people with psychic ability to see things in Russian, and gather intelligence. So, by my definition, he sees real events in his dream because of a psychic connection to Voldemort, that sounds like a Seer to me. But then, that's just my opinion. bboy_mn From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Thu Jan 9 22:29:44 2003 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 22:29:44 -0000 Subject: Is Dumbledore Detached? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49514 I don't believe that Dumbledore is evil in the sense that he means harm to everyone, but could he, due to his great age (Have we seen any of his comtempories?) have grown a little detached from the WW? Perhaps he does not take the threat of Voldemort quite seriously or sees it as a chance to be 'entertained' by events. Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 21:38:37 2003 From: gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com (gingersnape1966 ) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 21:38:37 -0000 Subject: Crouch!Moody. When did Dumbledore know? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49515 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pickle_jimmy " wrote: > In the whole "[Dumbledore] doesn't miss a trick" arena, when does > Dumbledore suspect that Moody isn't Moody? > me: I wondered how Moody could have fooled Dumbledore. In GoF (ch. 35) when Harry was rescued from the fake Moody, Dumbledore told Harry "The real Moody would not have removed you from my sight after what happened tonight. The moment he took you, I knew-and I followed." Depending on how much emphasis Dumbledore put on the word "knew", it would either mean he had suspected for a while or that it hit him from out of the blue. Personally, I think he was suspicious. It would tie in with Pickle Jimmy's observation: > And, did Dumbledore - knowing fake!moody was a dark wizard - > trick/manipulate him into passing on his knowledge of the > unforgivable curses (under the safety of hogwarts) to aid the > students - especially Harry - in the future events. eg The Rise and > Fall of Future!Voldemort > me: I wondered why such a loyal Dark wizard would teach Harry to throw off the Imperius Curse! That would explain it! Moody did say that the MoM didn't want him showing students what the Unforgivable curses looked like until their 6th year, but "Dumbledore's got a higher opinion of your nerves, he recons you can cope." This would imply that Dumbledore had a hand in it, either bacause he suspected Moody, or because he knew (he had been "reading the signs") that Harry would need these things sooner than his 6th year. Best regards, Ginger From suzchiles at pobox.com Thu Jan 9 22:39:39 2003 From: suzchiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:39:39 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Dumbledore Detached? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49516 > From: Christopher Nuttall [mailto:christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com] > I don't believe that Dumbledore is evil in the sense that he > means harm to everyone, but could he, due to his great age (Have > we seen any of his comtempories?) have grown a little detached > from the WW? Perhaps he does not take the threat of Voldemort > quite seriously or sees it as a chance to be 'entertained' by events. > Chris > If I read Goblet of Fire correctly, I don't think there's anyone who takes Voldemort more seriously than Dumbledore. If he's detached from anything, I think it would be the Ministry of Magic, which, alas, suffers from many of the maladies that affect such governmental organizations: apathy and an overwhelming desire to not rock the boat. Fudge is a perfect example; he'd rather keep his nice job and not have anyone worried about Voldemort than to accept the fact that Voldemort has been reborn is, as the American cop shows say, armed and extremely dangerous. Suzanne From jprobins at ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 9 22:44:06 2003 From: jprobins at ix.netcom.com (James P. Robinson III) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 16:44:06 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Potter Geography In-Reply-To: <3E1CF97D.D80A4B39@pacificpuma.com> References: <20030109004803.45898.qmail@web40509.mail.yahoo.com> <3E1CE0EA.25570D7B@pacificpuma.com> <005701c2b792$a1906be0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030109164012.07135960@popd.ix.netcom.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49517 As the clock struck 10:24 PM 1/8/2003 -0600, jazmyn took pen in hand and wrote: >Isn't it that Scotland is a part of the United Kingdom. Britain is a >part of the United Kingdom. etc. > >Saying Scotland ia a part of Britain is like saying Wales is Britain >too. One assumes that 'Britain' in the books refers to just Britain and >not all of Great Britain, or it would state 'Great' Britain. > >I'm just referring to what my maps say the country (and parts thereof) >are called. > >Jazmyn I think you are confusing Britain with England. Britain is a geographical division generally considered to include England, Wales, Cornwall and Scotland. The United Kingdom also includes Northern Ireland. Calling Scotland a part of England is inaccurate; calling it a part of Britain is accurate. You might get beat up either way, though. Jim From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 23:50:17 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:50:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry a Seer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030109235017.43568.qmail@web40514.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49519 I wrote: > Yes, but Seeing and Divination is, as I understand it, the *ability to predict the future.* So while Harry "sees" what happens to Frank and Voldemort in Book 4 and remembers what happened when his parents dies, he doesn't predict the future - he sees the past and the present. That's not Seeing. I stick to the idea that Harry actually *remembers* the events of the Halloween in Godric's Hollow, and sees the dreams in GoF ('live') because of his connection with Voldemort (the failed curse). > > Maria bboy_mn adds: Regardless of your personal definition of 'Seeing'; Harry is seeing. And regardless of the reason for his ability, he is still demonstrating psychic ability. Harry is clairvoyant. (1. The supposed power to SEE objects or events that cannot be perceived by the senses. 2. Acute intuitive insight or perceptiveness.) In a sense, clairvoyant means 'clear seeing'. Another term might be 'remote vision'. So, by my definition, he sees real events in his dream because of a psychic connection to Voldemort, that sounds like a Seer to me. I reply: Well, I guess that one can call seeing 'live' events Seeing if one wants to, although I personally think that the term should be used only for the ability to predict the future. I agree that Harry is clairvoyant, but I say that: 1. It's not a special gift, as it's the result of Voldemort Ak'ing Harry 2. We don't have any evidence of Harry being able to see the *future,* which seems to me the most useful part of Seeing 3. His "gift" (or curse ) doesn't cover anything except Voldemort. So, I am willing to say that Harry is a *very* limited Seer, and no more, although in the pending war even this limited ability will be very useful. But his gift wouldn't let him win at chess or Quidditch, for example. Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kethlenda at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 23:55:53 2003 From: kethlenda at yahoo.com (Kelly L. ) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 23:55:53 -0000 Subject: Potters' House Destroyed, and Dark Marks fading when V. vaporized In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49520 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tammy Bianchi" < Resqgal911 at m...> wrote: > ANGELA said: > > In response to how people were able to assume that LV was gone (when they had no proof that he was dead) within 24 hours of his failed curse, it is a good question. And canon gives us only one concrete reason. When Hagrid tells that Harry that they knew LV was gone because some wizards came "out of trances" , presumably when they were freed from LV's imperius. But could this realization could have happened so quickly? And Tammy said: > I assumed, after reading GOF that when Voldimort was vaporizied that the mark on the DE's arms became lighter. I suppose it is possible that there were supporters of V that came out of trances, but it seems that the DEs that come back at the end of GOF were not just in trances. > > Tammy Me: Snape! It must have been Snape. He had gone over to the "good guys", but he still had a Dark Mark, and he would have noticed it's fading or disappearance. Another wild thought: It is said that Snape turned spy for the "good guys" before the fall of Voldemort. Does canon ever mention how LONG before the fall of Voldemort? The more I think about it, the more I think it was probably about an hour. * grin* He was at a Death Eater meeting, and heard the plot to kill the Potters. He was in life-debt to James, so the plot against his life would have given him at least some motivation to change sides. I can just see him fleeing to Dumbledore for help, and them arriving too late to save James and Lily. But no doubt Snape would have found it surprising that no Dark Mark hovered in the sky, and he would have noticed the Mark on his arm vanishing, so he was able to figure out that V. was vanquished. Right now, this is just a Wild Unsubstantiated Theory. I need to go back and do some rereading to figure out whether it could have worked like that. Kelly L. From kethlenda at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 23:57:25 2003 From: kethlenda at yahoo.com (Kelly L. ) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 23:57:25 -0000 Subject: Potters' House Destroyed, and Dark Marks fading when V. vaporized In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49521 A minute ago I posted: Snape! It must have been Snape. He had gone over to the > "good guys", but he still had a Dark Mark, and he would have > noticed it's fading or disappearance. Pardon the lousy grammar. I meant "its" disappearance. Kelly L. From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Fri Jan 10 00:03:38 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David ) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 00:03:38 -0000 Subject: Sneakoscope (was Occam's Razor, Lupin/James and the Shiver) In-Reply-To: <20030108004522.23910.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49522 Barb wrote: > Another clue to the efficacy of dark detectors comes earlier, in PoA, when Ron gives Harry a Sneak-O-Scope, which he says Percy declared to be defective, as it kept going off when they were having dinner. (This was on the Egyptian trip.) However, Ron informs Harry that the twins were putting something (beetles?) in his food, so the device was NOT defective--Percy was simply unaware of the actions of the twins. As we are told that a Sneak-O-Scope goes off when there is someone about who cannot be trusted (the twins, in the case above) We may have had this discussion before, but I believe that *all* the sneakoscope instances in POA are due to Scabbers. The passage in question illustrates Ron's naivete. Putting beetles in soup is not an example of untrustworthiness. Ron is still young enough to confuse minor misdemeanours with serious weakness of character. Also, he has no other suspect to blame, not thinking of Scabbers. There is a later case where Hermione falls into a similar trap, asking Ron if he was 'doing anything untrustworthy' (or something similar at the time). The point being there is a difference between being in essence untrustworthy and sometimes behaving badly. We are not merely what we do. David, who thinks Occam didn't design his razor to cut works of fiction From Malady579 at hotmail.com Fri Jan 10 00:06:31 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody ) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 00:06:31 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Climbing Wonder Trees Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49523 "I could throw a stick at it," Melody thought as she stood ten feet away from the huge live oak in the field next to the safe house. "But I guess that is like hitting someone with their own severed arm, so that will not help." She twisted her head trying to figure out the best way to approach this. Not know what causes trees to attack, she was at a lost at what to do to conquer this fear of trees. [1] She looked over at Coney [2] who was basking in the sun balanced on her back. "I could throw the bunny on the tree," she pondered looking between the oak and the bunny. Melody crept closer to the bunny, but Coney let out a low growl. "You've been hanging around Grey Wolf too much," she commented, but Coney just rolled over and jumped off flipping dirt all over Melody. Wiping her face, she turned back at the tree. Gathering her nerves and ignoring her fears, Melody took off towards the tree and took a large leap. She landed on one of the low branches and held on for dear life. She held her eyes closed tight in expectation, but nothing came but a breeze. She relaxed her shoulders and opened one eye. The tree was perfectly still and gently swaying like it was rocking a baby to sleep. "Woohoo!" Melody cried jumping up to stand on the branch. She threw her arms around the tree trunk and hugged it soundly. Looking up the tree, the top was beckoning her upward. Not wanting to push her luck, she just pulled herself up a branch higher and sat on it dangling her legs. She looked out at the view. "Not bad," she commented. She watched the clouds role by and began wondering. "Can HP wizards affect the weather? Are they limited to the range of incantations alone? Can Dumbledore, or worse, Voldemort stir up a sky and bring a hail storm down on WW and MW alike?" Melody swayed her legs up parallel to the branch and leaned her back against the tree trunk. "Can wizards move mountains? Are there limits to the command 'accio'? Wouldn't the only limit be in the power of the wizard behind it? Seems the likes of Dumbledore could possible move at least a building or better yet, trees. The whooping willow had to get to Hogwarts some how, and it came there full grown." Melody looked up at the tree. "Do you know how they did it?" The tree ruffled its leaves but remained to all degrees 'normal.' "Well then, maybe it was moved with a lot of wizards since the number of wizards behind the spell increases the severity of the spell. Could all the witches and wizards in the world amass and on the count of three move a mountain?" She sat there are envisioned the wizard population at the WQC being organized to move the stadium a few feet to get in the shade. Feeling more confident, she rose up and pulled herself up a branch. "Do you think the Potters' had a house elf? They seem to qualify so far. I wonder if this elf could fill in the little details about James and Lily that Harry does not know. The house elf would have probably be given to Dumbledore too, so the elf would be at Hogwarts. Though, I bet the elf knows little about Harry, so the elf would not search for him." Melody scanned the field. "Where is Coney?" she asked squinting her eyes looking for the white ball of fur. Getting worried, she swung herself down to the next branch but lost her grip and tumbled down to the next catching herself with the bends of her knees. She swung a few inches form the ground upside down and red faced. "Hmmm, that wasn't pleasant," she commented and began swinging herself to propel herself up. She grasped the branch and turned herself upright sitting on the branch again. "Well the tree did not let go of me," she smiled quite pleased with her rationale side coming back. Repositioning herself, she hung again from her knees and swayed in the breeze pondering some more. "I wonder why Hermione doesn't have any Muggle friends? Are werewolves insomniacs one night out of the year? Does a witch ride a broom side saddle?" Melody swayed some more as Coney hopped up and cocked her head staring at Melody. Melody waved at the bunny. "Hey, Coney. There you are. Proud of me?" Coney hopped up and looked at Melody's face. She then leaned forward and licked Melody's nose causing Melody to sneeze, loose her grip, and fall belly-flop on the ground. Coney hopped out of arm's reach chuckling. Melody laid for a moment trying to control her rage. "I could of had created a tall, dark, sexy theory but *noooo*. I just had to have a bunny," she grumbled. Coney kicked her back paws and threw more dust in Melody's face, but out of no where, the tree lurched swinging one of its branches over Melody's head and aimed directly at Coney. The branch caught the bunny's hind legs and flipped her over on her back. The tree rose back up to stature and shook its branches laughing in the wind. All Melody could do was smile. She stood up and walked over to Coney to make sure the little thing was ok. The rabbit sat up, shook its head, and flipped over growling at the tree. The tree let loose a mass of leaves on the bunny causing Coney to jump in Melody's arms out of fear. "Oh, Coney. It's just a tree," she cooed and winked at the oak. Melody [1] link to reason why my TBAY character fears trees http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/46414 [2] link to why I have a bunny http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/47881 From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Fri Jan 10 01:01:55 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius ) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 01:01:55 -0000 Subject: Stay Out Of Town (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49524 Almost 700 filks on HPF - and - would you believe it? - not a single solo for Minerva McGonagall! Until now......... Stay Out Of Town (PoA, Chap 8) To the tune of Cole Porter's Get Out of Town, from his musical Leave It To Me Hear a MIDI at: http://www.broadwaymidi.com/shows/leave_it_to_me.html Dedicated to Kelly Lasiter THE SCENE: Transfiguration Class. HARRY hopes against hope that McGONAGALL will allow him to accompany the other third-years to Hogsmeade sans the written consent of his guardians HARRY: (spoken) Professor, my aunt and uncle -- er -- forgot to sign my form ..So -- er d'you think it would be all right mean, will it be okay if I -- if I go to Hogsmeade? McGONAGALL: (spoken) I'm afraid not, Potter. You heard what I said . (music) Stay out of town Because you've no form from home Stay out of town Keep in your dorm please Ask me to sign? That is a task I'll decline Although Hogsmeade is Cloud Nine You've heard my decrees Don't disappear Dementors are not a joke And when if they're near, close to you dear They'll smoke your Cloak The rules stipulate parental estate Its Hancock has got to write down So on your way to class Stay out of town (Exit HARRY dejectedly. McGONAGALL, with an "odd expression" on her face, watches him leave) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jan 10 01:23:07 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 01:23:07 -0000 Subject: Potters' House Destroyed, and Dark Marks fading when V. vaporized In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49525 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly L. wrote. > > Another wild thought: It is said that Snape turned spy for the > "good guys" before the fall of Voldemort. Does canon ever > mention how LONG before the fall of Voldemort? The more I > think about it, the more I think it was probably about an hour. * > grin* He was at a Death Eater meeting, and heard the plot to kill > the Potters. He was in life-debt to James, so the plot against his life would have given him at least some motivation to change > sides. I can just see him fleeing to Dumbledore for help, and > them arriving too late to save James and Lily. Dumbledore says, at Karkaroff's hearing in the Pensieve, that Snape turned spy at "great personal risk". That would seem to indicate that he was undercover for a while. Also, he apparently did something to convince Dumbledore that he had really come back to the Light Side. I don't think a failed attempt to rescue the Potters would qualify. All but one of the DE's Karkaroff named had already been blown--how did that happen? And Sirius says that Karkaroff put "a load of other people into Azkaban." How could that be when he exposed only Rookwood? As part of his plea bargain, did Karkaroff take public credit for Snape's activities? (This would argue that the hearing in GoF was kept secret, of course.) Pippin From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Fri Jan 10 02:30:31 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants ) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 02:30:31 -0000 Subject: Lupin's narrative function Re: Against Evil!Lupin responses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49526 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999 " > Lupin and Sirius have different personalities, no argument there. > But they have very similar background, the same relationship to > Harry (which Hermione and Ron definitely *don't* have) and to > the wizarding world at large. The only thing that good!Lupin can > do, narratively, that Sirius can't, is turn into a werewolf at an > inconvenient time--and I don't think that's enough. I think there's a lot more difference that that. Sirius is a social outcast due to a limited and reparable external cause. When (if) his innocence is established, he can take his legitimate place in wizarding society as a fully trained, law-abiding wizard. He has hope for redemption and improvement of his lot. Remus is an outcast due to circumstances that can *never* be fixed, unless a cure for lycanthropy is found or the entire WW undergoes a complete change in attitude, and he has no reason to believe this will ever happen. I don't mean to belittle Sirius' commitment to the cause of the Light, but aside from the cause he's also fighting for his freedom, his good name, and the right to be a proper guardian to his godson. There's a light at the end of the tunnel for Sirius; not so for Remus. And do we really know that their backgrounds are "very similar"? They're both wizards who went to Hogwarts at the same time, but so are Rond and Draco. We don't know what their family backgrounds are, but we do know that Remus can't afford a decent set of robes, while Sirius, even after 12 years in Azkaban, can get his hands on enough money to buy a Firebolt. Their roles in Harry's life are very different, too. From the time his innocence is established in PoA, Sirius takes on the role of the parent figure to Harry. His position as godfather, rather than just a friend of James', is emphasized. He's the guy Harry comes to with his personal problems; he's the guy who offers advice; he's the guy who signs the permission slips, the guy whom the school calls when Harry is hurt. Remus, OTOH, is purely a teacher to Harry, never a parent. The reader isn't encouraged to see him in a fatherly role, Harry doesn't see him that way, and Remus doesn't appear to see himself that way. Throughout the school year, he makes no attempt to forge personal ties with Harry. He doesn't mention knowing James until he has to, and then he only claims a slight acquaintance. This despite the fact that if he was evil, claiming a close friendship with James would be the perfect way to win Harry's unconditional trust. This difference is emphasized at the beginning of GoF, when Harry's scar hurts and he's trying to figure out whom to tell. Once he realizes that he wants "somebody like a parent," he immedeately thinks of Sirius. Remus never occurs to him, even though he's a much more logical choice: he's the DADA expert, after all, and unlike Sirius he can move around Great Britain without fear of being arrested and summarily executed if anyone spots him. > Scott: > >>Sixth, and possibly the most important Point. It is our choices > that make us who we are- not our heritage, or ability, afflictions, > and so on. This is a central theme of the books. If Lupin were > evil, well, he'd just be another typical werewolf, wouldn't he? The > fact that Lupin is good, kind and dedicated person helps > illustrate the aforementioned Theme to the reader. Lupin turning > out evil would go against the 'our choices make us who we are' > idea that is so strongly presented. Of course, he could turn out > to be evil, and another werewolf who is truly good could be > introduced into the story. << > > That's true only if Lupin is the only "monster" in the books--but > he isn't. There's Hagrid, Madame Maxime, Fleur, and very > possibly Flitwick and Snape. I don't think any of the others qualify at all. None of them are "monsters" in the sense that Lupin is, and none of them face the same obstacles. Fleur makes no secret of being part-Veela, and it does nothing to jeopardize her position as a student and Triwizard champion. All the men worship at her feet, and while the women might get a bit snippy, there's nothing to keep her from living a happy and succesfull life as a witch. Flitwick? No evidence that he's anything but a very short human, and anyway, whatever he is, he's still a professor, a head of House, a former duelling champion, and everyone likes him. Snape? Same position as Flitwick, except for the "everyone likes him" part, and most of his problems come from being an Ex-DE and an obnoxious git, not from being a "monster." Hagrid and Madame Maxime come closest, but it's still no go. Giants and half-Giants are not classified as Beasts, they don't have to register themselves with any government agency (as evidenced by the fact that both Hagrid and Maxime manage to keep their heritage secret into adulthood). Madame Maxime is the headmistress of one of the three greatest wizarding schools in Europe. Hagrid is outed in the mainstream press, yet retains his job as teacher, and many Hogwarts parents support him. Hagrid, with his incomplete education and initial incompetence at his job, is still more employable and socially acceptable than Remus. This is what gives Remus such a strong role in presenting the books' theme. Of all the characters we've seen so far, he's the one with the most factors pushing him toward evil -- factors that can't be changed, that won't ever go away. If, in the face of all that, he can still make the right choices, then we can truly know that it's our choices rather than our circumstances that make us what we are. > Also, if Rowling wants to paint an honest picture of the harm > done by prejudice, she has to show the damage done to people > who buy into what's being said against them. I think that's already being done with Snape and Slytherin House. Snape comes to school knowing more Dark Curses than anyone else, gets sorted into "the Dark Wizard factory," and duly becomes a DE. Sure, he scrapes his way out eventually, but what about the other Slytherins of his generation, and now their children? There has been plenty of discussion on this list about how people's expectations about Slytherins can and do become self-fulfillig prophecies. I think it would be much more effective for future books to explore *that* than to spring an Evil!Lupin twist on us. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From bobafett at harbornet.com Thu Jan 9 21:03:50 2003 From: bobafett at harbornet.com (BoBaFeTT) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 13:03:50 -0800 Subject: Krums Future References: Message-ID: <001101c2b822$9cb1ebe0$f98402c7@home> No: HPFGUIDX 49527 BobafeTT offered: > He would need to repeat his last year. (presumably if he chose to) > If he went to Hogwarts where his precious Her-my-oh-ney is I would have little doubt a guy like him would be in Gryffindor. > Assuming that's true he would undoubtedly play on the quidditch team and being the most experienced he would be a good candidate for captain. > Who would be seeker though? > I would think Harry would remain seeker seeing he has only failed to get the snitch once. (when the dementors came in book 3) > Perhaps Krum would like to be a keeper for a change anyway. >Diana: >A good theory, however, I think Harry will become the new Quidditch >captain - no quotes to prove it, just a hunch. me(BoBaFeTT) JKR has been quoted as saying "The new Quidditch captain is not who most think it will be" - thats the only reason I wouldn't say it was Harry BoBaFeTT From snorth at ucla.edu Fri Jan 10 00:56:22 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:56:22 -0800 Subject: NEWTs References: Message-ID: <004201c2b843$281aa670$0100a8c0@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 49528 bboy_mn: >I never thought about N.E.W.T.s. Thinking about test like this, >qualifications test, in the Muggle world, they are usually give at the >school and by the school, but they are not actually part of the >school. They are a national standard test. I guess to a limited extent >we could compare them to SAT, which here in the US are used as college >entrance test (sort of). I'm not sure how the 'O'-levels and >'A'-levels work in England, but I would suspect that it is similar to >what I described above. It is a national standardized test that is >given by the school but the administration and certification come from >a higher body. >What am I getting at? Well, I don't think you can get out of OWLs and >NEWTs. They are your qualifications and certifications, and they are >administered by a higher authority than the school. So I would guess >the getting out of year end tests meant that you got out of your >various class exams, but not the separate national qualifications >exams. Although, Cedric's might have been postponed until the next year. Me: It's entirely possible that OWLs and NEWTS are administered by some higher authority. However- since Hogwart's is the only Wizarding school in the UK (okay, maybe it's not, but I've seen no convincing evidence that it isn't; clearly, even if it's not, it's certainly the best, so I wouldn't see the point of testing in other schools- the fact that you go to Hogwart's says you're a cut above the rest), I'd say it's probably likely that the school is in charge of testing. Given the close relationship between Hogwart's and the MoM, this is not unbelievable. Also, if you were your school's champion, I don't see why the tests would be necessary. Let's look at it from this standpoint- in US schools, there are generally two standardized tests, the SAT and the ACT, both of which are a factor in getting into a college/university. Why are these tests given? Why not rely on grades, class standing, etc.? The key word is 'standardized.' They don't rely on grades because not all High Schools are created equal, and they need some sort of measuring to stick to rank students from all over the US. Now, what does this have to do with anything? If you are the Hogwart's school champion, you are very like the top student, at what is either the A) only wizarding school or B) undoubtedly BEST wizarding school in the UK, so why would you need to take a test? Of course, I think what you guys have forgotten, is that Cedric was a 6th year. If I'm not mistaken, NEWTs are administered to 7th years (the Lexicon says 7th year). So really, it's all irrelevent. Only death saved him from NEWTs. -Scott From snorth at ucla.edu Fri Jan 10 01:08:18 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 17:08:18 -0800 Subject: Arithmancy Message-ID: <001201c2b844$d0f92130$0100a8c0@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 49529 Okay, I know I'm a dork (math major), but is anyone else really interested in seeing what goes on in Arithmancy? I'm guessing we never will, frankly, I don't see JKR inventing a system of magical mathematics. I mean, I can't really see what applications there would be, aside from Time Travel, which I'd bet requires grounding in arithmancy. -Scott From amani at charter.net Fri Jan 10 01:27:50 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 20:27:50 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What Other Talents Seers Have?/Seeing in Chess References: Message-ID: <002501c2b847$7d6d5060$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49530 ssyc: >> Personally, I have always had an impression, that his >> talent in chess was an indication of his *analytical* >> abilities. Laurasia: >Maybe. But in that case surely Hermione would be excellent at chess, >which, we know, she isn't (or at least, Ron always beats her. >Suggesting he's go something she hasn't) Exactly. Ron has experience. He's obviously been playing chess for a good deal of time, whereas Hermione obviously hasn't had the experience that he has. --Taryn From amani at charter.net Fri Jan 10 01:33:32 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 20:33:32 -0500 Subject: Krums Future References: <67.6be4bf7.2b4e9997@aol.com> <001601c2b7c2$5c2a2700$86a242cf@home> Message-ID: <004a01c2b848$49ae21e0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49531 BoBafeTT: >Needless to say I doubt his school year was completed due to the headmaster running off Why would that be? Hogwarts has gone on when Dumbledore has been suspended from duty. Someone would probably have just taken over for the remainder of the year, I should guess. --Taryn From amani at charter.net Fri Jan 10 01:53:42 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 20:53:42 -0500 Subject: Questions: Dumbledore as student, other magic schools, Potter money, Muggle money exchange References: <002f01c2b7c2$7c1b5660$59a794d1@vaio> Message-ID: <005501c2b84b$1a918e80$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49532 Melissa: 1) Was Dumbledore a student at Hogwarts or at a different wizard school when he was young? If he was at Hogwarts, which House was he in? Was this ever answered in the books? Me: The closest I believe we get is Hermione saying, "I've been asking around, and I hope I'm in Gryffindor, it sounds by far the best; I hear Dumbledore himself was in it..." [PS/SS US Paperback 106] But that's not necessarily infallible. She just said she /heard/ Dumbledore was in it. Could be an incorrect rumor. Melissa: 2) Do the other magic schools have Houses as well? Argh... I must reread GoF, as I seem to remember something about this. Does the Muggle education system of a particular country affect that country's wizard school(s) in any way? Me: I don't recall anything being mentioned about it, and I just recently re-read GoF. But someone please speak up if they remembering anything. ^_^ Melissa: 3) Where did Lily and James Potter get all of the money they left to Harry? Was James' family rich? The Dursleys, though well-off, aren't amazingly rich, and most of their money probably comes from the business Vernon owns; did the Evanses leave Lily all or most of their money (we know they were proud of having a witch in the family), cutting out Petunia? It seems likely to me, though, that if Petunia had been cut out of the will, she would have complained about it, loudly, repeatedly, and at great length ^^ so it's more probable that it was the Potters, not the Evanses, who were rich. Me: I'm sure J.K. Rowling has said in an interview that James inheirited his money... Ahh! Here, found it in one of the group's interview transcripts: Jesse Kornbluth: Here's one from Tiger Lily: What did James and Lily Potter do when they were alive? J.K. Rowling: Well, I can't go into too much detail, because you're going to find out in future books. But James inherited plenty of money, so he didn't need a well-paid profession. You'll find out more about both Harry's parents later. [From the AOL Chat, Oct. 2000] Nice idea about Petunia getting knocked out of the will.. ^_^ Melissa: 4) That's got me thinking, how do wizard children born to Muggle families get any money to spend in Diagon Alley and at Hogsmeade? Is there some sort of Muggle/wizard currency-exchange service? Would wizards have any use whatsoever for Muggle money? Ron has never seen Muggle money, so that suggests it can't be used in the WW. "But you're muggles!" said Mr. Weasely delightedly. "We must have a drink! What's that you've got there? Oh, you're changing Muggle money! Molly, look!" He pointed excitedly at the ten-pound notes in Mr. Granger's hand. [CoS US Paperback 57] So we know that there is exchange of money going on. I have wondered what the WW does with the RW money. The best I could think of is it somehow gets exchanged back through the WW's contacts in the government. --Taryn From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Fri Jan 10 03:14:18 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 03:14:18 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Arithmancy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49533 >Okay, > > I know I'm a dork (math major), but is anyone else really interested >in seeing what goes on in Arithmancy? I'm guessing we never will, frankly, >I don't see JKR inventing a system of magical mathematics. I mean, I can't >really see what applications there would be, aside from Time Travel, which >I'd bet requires grounding in arithmancy. > >-Scott > Scott, I'm really interested in seeing this, and I'm really curious about Astronomy class. I haven't looked up the dictionary definition of "arithmancy" (because I've seen the word before) and I was wondering if JKR's intent might not be more like a more sophisticated vision of numerology, rather than mathematics as we understand it, a tool for quantum physics as in time travel as you postulate here, for example. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From snorth at ucla.edu Fri Jan 10 03:39:11 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 19:39:11 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Arithmancy References: Message-ID: <001e01c2b859$d8a446c0$0100a8c0@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 49534 Felinia: > I haven't looked up the dictionary definition of "arithmancy" (because I've > seen the word before) and I was wondering if JKR's intent might not be more > like a more sophisticated vision of numerology, rather than mathematics as > we understand it, a tool for quantum physics as in time travel as you > postulate here, for example. Me: For whatever, reason, I hadn't thought to look it up, or google it. But the most common definition is "divination by numbers" or a pre-cursor to Numerology (which I guess is the same thing?). I wonder if JKR means it as something different though, because if it was "divination by numbers" A) I would think it would just be part of the Divination course, and B) it probably wouldn't be Hermione's favorite subject. Personally, I think it would be much cooler if it was some form of magical mathematics and not just one more way to try and predict the future. But that's just me. :D -Scott PS I also found a rather interesting site while googling. Not totally relevant to anything, but here it is anyway. http://www.sorcererscompanion.net/arithmancy.html From srsiriusblack at aol.com Fri Jan 10 05:22:45 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 00:22:45 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Dumbledore Detached? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49535 In a message dated 09/01/2003 17:33:35 Eastern Standard Time, christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com writes: > I don't believe that Dumbledore is evil in the sense that he means harm to > everyone, but could he, due to his great age (Have we seen any of his > comtempories?) have grown a little detached from the WW? Perhaps he does > not take the threat of Voldemort quite seriously or sees it as a chance to > be 'entertained' by events. I think that plenty of examples are provided to show that Dumbledore is quite progressive and understands the impact that Lord Voldemort's return will have on the WW. Dumbledore, being the only wizard that Vold. feared, who has always led the righteous fight against V., and who has always taken the rumours and statements of the WW in regard to V's return very seriously, is imho, very unlikely to be 'entertained' by the events to come. Dumbledore has great strength and understanding, and while I truly believe he has an awesome sense of humour, would find it horribly disappointing if he were to find humour in anything related to the rising of Voldemort again. Dumbledore knows what the WW is up against, and he also knows, as he shows in the last chapters of GoF, what needs to be done to hinder Voldemort until he can be dealt with as necessary. -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Fri Jan 10 05:26:15 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 21:26:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Against Evil!Lupin responses (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030110052615.13996.qmail@web40507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49536 I wrote: >>First off, I wouldn't say that we know all about JKR to make assumptions about what she would or wouldn't do. Secondly, Lupin and Sirius *don't* have the same narrative function. Yes, they are James' friends, but Ron and Hr are Harry's friends too... Both of them couldn't be traitors - so how can we say that 2 of James' friends are traitors? (Am I making sense? L and S are sooo different, and they play such different roles in the story. BTW, don't Fred and George have the same narrative function? Could one of them be a traitor? )<< Pippin replied: Lupin and Sirius have different personalities, no argument there. But they have very similar background, the same relationship to Harry (which Hermione and Ron definitely *don't* have) and to the wizarding world at large. The only thing that good!Lupin can do, narratively, that Sirius can't, is turn into a werewolf at an inconvenient time--and I don't think that's enough. My answer: One second. I disagree with your statement that Lupin and Sirius have very similar backgrounds. We don?t know *anything* about them (in comparison with how much we know about Ron and Hermione). As for the same relationship to Harry, I disagree with that as well. Although Harry likes them both, he hasn?t once remembered Lupin in GoF, except as the best DADA teacher he had ? and that?s not very personal, but he was all over Sirius (happy to have a relative at last). Pippin continued: Ron and Hermione bubble over with conflict. So much so, that some of our most prominent listees (waves at list-mom Penny and the crew of the good SHIP H/H) think they'll never be reconciled. Even Fred and George have their disputes. But the strongest image of Sirius and Lupin is when they stand shoulder to shoulder, ready to blast poor Pettigrew into the next world, both seeking to avenge James, or so we are led to think. I answer: Who knows how Lupin and Sirius behaved when they were carefree youths . Lupin?s personality resembles that of Hermione a little, and likewise for Sirius and Ron. I don?t have trouble imagining conflicts between Sirius and Remus, although I think that they got along better than Ron and Hermione (that?s just speculation on my part, but to me it seems very likely). As for S and L standing shoulder to shoulder, wouldn?t R&H stand shoulder to shoulder in such circumstances? Pippin goes on to say: And Harry stands up to them, "facing the wands." Dumbledore says there is now a life-debt between Harry and Pettigrew. But is that alone enough to create a life-debt? Sirius tells Harry that James saved Snape "at great risk to himself." The element of jeopardy is not there if neither Sirius nor Lupin is, in truth, a murderer. I think that must be an essential, or Harry would owe a life-debt to Snape for keeping him from falling off his broom in Book One, and another to Dumbledore for breaking his fall at the Hufflepuff/Gryffindor match in Book Three. I reply: I found it rather hard to follow this thought, but I understood it this way ? correct me if I?m wrong. I think you?re saying that 1. In order for a life-debt to be created there must be a real threat to the life of the wizard-to-be-in-debt (just, just ), 2. There wouldn?t be a real threat to Pettigrew?s life unless Lupin was really a murderer, i.e. a spy for Voldie and generally evil. IMO, Pettigrew?s life really is threatened, and Lupin does not have to be generally evil in order to kill Peter. Sirius wants to kill Peter and is ready to do so even before Lupin comes, and I think we all agree that Sirius is not evil. As for Snape owing his life to James, maybe he did, but now that James dead, I guess that the life-debt is somehow gone as well. And, concerning Harry?s life-debt to Dumbledore and Snape: wizards seem to be less fragile than Muggles (Neville fell from his broom in PS and was OK & Harry was rescued from an almost-destroyed house unharmed when he was only 1 year old) ? so we don?t know whether Harry would have died as a result of his falls. Scott wrote: >>Dumbledore trusts Lupin<< Pippin replied: Does he? I think I just proved he does not, since he obviously believes that there is a life-debt between Pettigrew and Harry. But in any case, Dumbledore hired the obviously untrustworthy Lockhart, and kept Quirrell on after Snape had begun to suspect him. Dumbledore sent Sirius to lie low at Lupin's, but that could have been to keep Lupin under surveillance. I say: I don?t think you proved that DD doesn?t trust Lupin, given what I just wrote in the paragraph above. Then again, we don?t know if he does. I?m inclined to think that DD trusted Lupin. Hiring Lockhart is one thing (no other man for the job, remember?), and hiring an evil, evil person who is a Voldemort supporter is another. (Since DD didn?t know Moody was fake I assume he didn?t know Quirrell was evil either, and we don?t know whether Snape shared his suspicions about Quirrell with DD). Scott: >>Second point. Lupin's greatest fear, as shown by the boggart, is the Full moon. Now, I can only guess this is because he's afraid of turning into a werewolf and hurting innocent people. I'm sorry, but if Lupin were evil, why would he be afraid of this?<< Me again: On this point I actually disagree with Scott, even though we share the same opinion that Lupin is good. There?s evil and there?s evil. Being a Voldemort supporter and doing whatever things they do (torture people, kill them with curses, bring them before Voldy etc) is one thing, and actually wanting to regularly rip people apart with your own teeth (excuse my graphic description) is another. I don?t think that even Voldemort himself would have wanted to do that. And, as Pippin says below, the pain Lupin goes through is almost unbearable. On a tangent, one thing that really interests me is what hurts more ? the Cruciatus Curse or transforming into a werewolf. Is it OK to wonder about that? I don?t know. I think that if transforming hurts even half as much as a Cruciatus Curse, I don?t see how Lupin or any other werewolf for that matter would want to even think about hurting anyone else. Pippin comments on Scott?s point: Sorry, but when Lupin talks about why he loathes his transformations, he never mentions a fear of harming innocent people. He talks about losing his human mind, he talks about being separated from humans to bite, the pain he goes through, and the way he scratches and bites himself. It's only as he's leaving Hogwarts (and Crookshanks isn't there to call his bluff) that he mentions that he "might have bitten any of you"--and says that's a point he didn't see till "after last night"!! Maria: IMHO, Lupin is (and was) always locked up so well during his transformations that him biting another human being was pretty much out of the question. We must remember that he was bitten as a small child. No doubt his parents consoled him so much (oh, poor guy? I want him to be happy) that he got used to the idea that he was secure and had no chance of escaping (I know I expressed that kind of badly, but I hope you understand me). As for his MWPP ?adventures,? when he was not securely locked up ? well, he was young and stupid and giddy, as he says himself. James, Sirius and Peter went on rampages with him too, and never had second thoughts (OK, maybe they did, but they were *second* thoughts ) ? and they aren?t evil. In Hogwarts Lupin drinks Wolfsbane potion ? why should he be afraid of biting anyone? He says ?that?s a point he didn?t see till?after last night.?? There?s nothing wrong with it. Before last night, there was, as I just said, no chance of him biting anyone, in the evening in the Shrieking Shack he was much too preoccupied too even remember there was a full moon, and ?last night? he was a werewolf, losing his human mind. Scott: >>Third Point. If Lupin were a Voldemort supporter whose job it was to protect Harry, why would he have resigned at the end of the year? << Pippin answers: Lupin came to Hogwarts to get Peter, and resigned in order to chase Peter back to Voldemort. Me: Since this taken by itself is not evidence of Lupin being evil, I won?t comment on it. (I?m quoting this in order to have a full reply.) Scott: >>Fourth Point. If Lupin were a Voldemort supporter, why didn't he kill Sirius to silence him?<< I think he tried. Twice. Who called the Dementors on to the grounds at the Quidditch match? Lupin *says* they came because they were hungry and the excitement of the match drew them. Really? But why didn't they come to the earlier matches, and why did they only come when Sirius was there? Why did they come after Sirius again at the end of PoA? If they can be summoned mentally, then Lupin in wolf-form could have called them, provided he had had his potion, of course. Me: I don?t think you can summon dementors like that ? there?s no canon to support that, at least. I think that before the match when they came they weren?t hungry, and then they became hungry, and they came (my English professor would kill me for that sentence ). It could also be that they somehow sense when Sirius is there ? they had 12 years to get acquainted with his soul, after all . Scott: >>Fifth Point, part A. If Lupin were a Voldemort supporter, why wasn't he trying to help Voldemort regain his strength? part B. If he wasn't trying to help Voldemort regain his strength, then he was probably under orders to watch Harry, and it would have had to be a very,very important order (WHY DID HE RESIGN?!). Note that in GoF, Voldemort doesn't mention another Loyal supporter aside from Crouch Jr. (or, he could have been talking about Lupin, but then why didn't he mention Crouch Jr.- doesn't make sense)<< Pippin: Even a tame werewolf couldn't tend to uglybaby!Voldemort. How would it milk Nagini? And Lupin isn't much of a potion maker, so he's probably not up to making the venom-unicorn's blood cocktail that uglybaby persists on, either. The Wolfsbane potion must be hard to come by in dark Albanian forests, anyway. As for possession, a werewolf would be regarded with suspicion, so even in human form Lupin wouldn't make a good vehicle. Imagine what would have happened if Lupin had shown up in a turban! I don't know whether the flesh of a faithful werewolf would have worked in the re-embodiment potion. But one must doubt it. I don't suppose Voldemort wanted to take any chance he'd be reincarnated as a werewolf! My answer: Again, that?s not evidence. But as for Voldy saying stuff about werewolf cubs ? what happens if a female werewolf becomes pregnant ? from a man or from a wolf? Maybe you can get werewolf cubs? Scott: >>Sixth, and possibly the most important Point. It is our choices that make us who we are- not our heritage, or ability, afflictions, and so on. This is a central theme of the books. If Lupin were evil, well, he'd just be another typical werewolf, wouldn't he? The fact that Lupin is good, kind and dedicated person helps illustrate the aforementioned Theme to the reader. Lupin turning out evil would go against the 'our choices make us who we are' idea that is so strongly presented. Of course, he could turn out to be evil, and another werewolf who is truly good could be introduced into the story. << Pippin: That's true only if Lupin is the only "monster" in the books--but he isn't. There's Hagrid, Madame Maxime, Fleur, and very possibly Flitwick and Snape. I think, if my theory holds up, that JKR will make it very clear that Lupin is evil because he made a choice, however fraught, to become a Voldemort supporter, not because the werewolf made him do it. I see Snape as Lupin's necessary counterpart, who can't pretend to be kind or gentle or innocent, but is now trying, very hard, to be good. Me: I agree with Pippin that if JKR were ever to make Lupin evil, it would not be because he is a werewolf. But I think that what JKR is trying to do with Lupin is to show how prejudiced people are ? how such a nice, sweet, kind, smart (oh, I?m starting my I Love Lupin song again? ILL, I say, ILL!) person is shunned because of what he is for a few hours every month. If he turned out to be a Mighty Evil Voldemort Supporter and we all found out that he?d been pretending all the while, it would have been against JKR?s philosophy, no matter what Lupin?s choices were or were not. And yet another thought. While Fake!Moody is cool, he isn?t really nice (Amazing Bouncing Ferrret, his conversations with Snape, etc.). Harry doesn?t think Moody is nice either ? he constantly talks about the possibility of being transformed or cursed by him. Lupin, on the other hand, *is* extremely nice, Harry feels it, and I don?t think you can fake that kind of thing. In this case I?d trust my gut feeling, which is what I do. Besides, JKR said in an interview that Lupin was one of her favourite characters. I honestly don?t think that if Lupin were a Mighty Evil Voldemort Supporter and lied, cheated all his time at Hogwarts JKR would like him so much. One might love Voldy or Lucius Malfoy, but at least they don?t hide their evilness. Looking back on this all, I think that one of Pippin?s main arguments (the main one, actually) was that JKR wouldn?t create 2 characters with the same narrative function (Lupin and Sirius). I?d like to talk some more about this, since it?s important IMHO. I said something about this in my previous post - that we really shouldn?t make predictions about what JKR would or would not do. Why shouldn?t JKR give James 2 good friends, as she did with Harry? Besides, it would be even worse if she made Lupin evil ? she?d have 2 of James? friends traitors *and* 2 DADA teachers Mighty Evil Voldemort Supporters from the narrative point of view. I?d be really disappointed in both JKR and Dumbledore ? with the former for using the same trick twice and with the latter for falling for that same trick twice. Well, I?m done. This is my longest post yet, and I thank those who?ve stayed with me. BTW, I?m really interested in how many people do think that Lupin is a Mighty Evil Voldemort Supporter? maybe we can have a poll? Maria, a bit sleepy and giddy from watching Emma and Much Ado About Nothing *both* 3 evenings in a row? I love Beatrice & Benedick! (thank goodness for winter break) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Fri Jan 10 05:42:28 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 21:42:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Arithmancy In-Reply-To: <001201c2b844$d0f92130$0100a8c0@xyrael> Message-ID: <20030110054228.27257.qmail@web40511.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49537 Scott wrote: Okay, I know I'm a dork (math major), but is anyone else really interested in seeing what goes on in Arithmancy? I'm guessing we never will, frankly, I don't see JKR inventing a system of magical mathematics. I mean, I can't really see what applications there would be, aside from Time Travel, which I'd bet requires grounding in arithmancy. -Scott I reply: Y'know what bothers me (I'm a sort of math major myself)? It's how in the world the kids in our favourite school of Hogwarts know enough mathematics to do the complicated calculations of angles that are mentioned during the Divination lesson in GoF. Now, I'm not acquainted with British math education, but I am with American and Russian, having studied in both of these countries' schools. Even Muggle born children finish attending Muggle schools at the age of 11. Even in Russia, where a lot (really a lot) of emphasis is placed on math, students don't start geometry until they are 12 or 13 years old (7th grade). In America the situation is even worse (from a WW point of view, I mean. I don't think 12-13 years is too late to start geometry.) The kids that stopped learning math at the age of 11 would not be capable of performing complicated calculations of any sort, especially if they involved angles - that's sine and cosine tables, if not theorems and equation solving. As for wizard-born kids, JKR said they didn't have to attend school before Hogwarts. Math develops the ability to think logically, that's what my favourite math teacher always said and I agree with him. Maybe it's because wizards don't seem to have any math at all that many of them lack this ability, as Hermione says in PS (Snape's Challenge)? Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Jan 10 07:05:52 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr ) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 07:05:52 -0000 Subject: Questions: Dumbledore as student, other magic schools, Potter money, Muggle money exchange In-Reply-To: <005501c2b84b$1a918e80$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49538 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Taryn Kimel" wrote: > Melissa: > 4) That's got me thinking, how do wizard children born to Muggle families get any money to spend in Diagon Alley and at Hogsmeade? Is there some sort of Muggle/wizard currency-exchange service? Would wizards have any use whatsoever for Muggle money? Ron has never seen Muggle money, so that suggests it can't be used in the WW. > > "But you're muggles!" said Mr. Weasely delightedly. "We must have a drink! What's that you've got there? Oh, you're changing Muggle money! Molly, look!" He pointed excitedly at the ten-pound notes in Mr. Granger's hand. [CoS US Paperback 57] > > So we know that there is exchange of money going on. I have wondered what the WW does with the RW money. The best I could think of is it somehow gets exchanged back through the WW's contacts in the government. > > --Taryn This ties in with another possible question: where do wizards get all their "normal" or "non-magic" stuff? I am thinking about things like food, fabric, furniture, etc. Can you imagine being a fully qualified wizard and spending your life growing plain, ordinary vegetables for other wizards to eat? I am proposing a Wizarding import business. Any Witch or Wizard who had both business talent and exposure to the Muggle world growing up (and thus enough familiarity with it) could establish a prosperous "front" business in the Muggle world. They would exchange wizard money for muggle money at Gringott's and place orders with Muggle farmers and suppliers with it for raw goods such as food, lumber, brass, etc., then sell it to wizarding artesans and grocers wholesale where it enters the wizarding economy. Part of the profit then goes back to Gringott's for more Muggle money. Can't you just see it? A normal-looking warehouse in the muggle world somewhere with a sign saying, "Creevey Bros. Trading Co., Ltd." Muggle trucks (okay, lorries) arrive all day long and unload their goods, but no trucks ever take anything out again. Do you suppose they could be making their deliveries by Floo Powder? With a really large fireplace? Annemehr From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jan 10 07:23:38 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 07:23:38 -0000 Subject: Harry a Seer? In-Reply-To: <20030109235017.43568.qmail@web40514.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49539 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Maria Kirilenko wrote: > > > Maria originally wrote: > > > Yes, but Seeing and Divination is, as I understand it, the > > *ability to predict the future.* > > > > Maria > > bboy_mn originally adds: > > Regardless of your personal definition of 'Seeing'; Harry is seeing. > And regardless of the reason for his ability, he is still > demonstrating psychic ability. > > Harry is clairvoyant. > -end this part- > > Maria replies: > > Well, I guess that one can call seeing 'live' events Seeing if one > wants to, although I personally think that the term should be used > only for the ability to predict the future. > -end this part- bboy_mn: >From the Skeptic's Dictionary- http://skepdic.com/contents.html Clairvoyancs come in two types; PREcognition and RETROcognition. Precognition of course means to know the future. Retrocognition means to know the past. Relative to retrocognition, think of psychics that help with police investigations. They attempt to 'see' details of events that have already occurred. Now the knowledge gained from retrocognition still relates to the future. For example, divining where a treasure is buried, leads you to finding the treasure at some future date. Harry knowing what Voldemort is doing in the present, will effect how events play out in the future. Psychic seeing is the ability to know or see things that it would normally be impossible for you to know, whether it be the past, present, or the future. It is to see with the mind rather than the eye. -bboy_mn - end this part- Maria continues with her responce: I agree that Harry is clairvoyant, but I say that: > > 1. It's not a special gift, as it's the result of Voldemort > Ak'ing Harry > > 2. We don't have any evidence of Harry being able to see the > *future,* which seems to me the most useful part of Seeing > > 3. His "gift" (or curse ) doesn't cover anything except > Voldemort. > > So, I am willing to say that Harry is a *very* limited Seer, and no more, although in the pending war even this limited ability will be very useful. But his gift wouldn't let him win at chess or Quidditch, for example. > > Maria bboy_mn: With the exception of Seeing being relative to the future only, I agree with the points you made. SO FAR, all the evidence says that Harry's ability is tied directly to and limited to Voldemort, so I can't show evidence that Harry is anything beyond 'a very limited Seer'. On the other hand, Harry's life is so dominated by Voldemort that it may be overwhelming his natural seeing ability. Again, there is no real evidence to support this theory, but it is possible. It seems that the only point we really disagree on is the need for a Seer to only see into the future, and again, that hinges on the definition used. True most psychic seeing is related to seeing into the future. But the ability to see into the present and the past, by my definition, are still valid forms of psychic seeing. Just a few more thoughts. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jan 10 07:40:46 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 07:40:46 -0000 Subject: NEWTs In-Reply-To: <004201c2b843$281aa670$0100a8c0@xyrael> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49540 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Scott Northrup" wrote: > bboy_mn: > >I never thought about N.E.W.T.s. > > ...edited... It is a national standardized test that is > > given by the school but the administration and certification > > come from a higher body. > > > What am I getting at? Well, I don't think you can get out of OWLs > > and NEWTs. They are your qualifications and certifications, and > > they are administered by a higher authority than the school. So I > > would guess the getting out of year end tests meant that you got > > out of your various class exams, but not the separate national > > qualifications exams. Although, Cedric's might have been postponed > > until the next year. > > -end this part- > > > Me: (Scott) > > It's entirely possible that OWLs and NEWTS are administered by some higher authority. However- since Hogwart's is the only Wizarding school in the UK ... ... ... I'd say it's probably likely that the school is in charge of testing. > > ...edited... > > -Scott bboy_mn: I say that we are both right. Wouldn't be the first time it happened. The school is a higher authority than a teacher. Class exams are given and graded by the classroom teacher. I'm saying these are the sxams the Champions got out of. The OWLS and NEWTS are certifications that come from the school as an institution. That institution being a greater authority than the classroom teacher. Any diploma (or certification or qualification) is only as valid as the reputation of the school that issues it. A diploma from Harvard in and of itself is meaningless. It is the reputation of the school that gives it power. So, you say it is the school that gives, grade, and certifies the OWLS and NEWTS, and I say that the school as an intitusion is a higher authority than the classroom teacher. I still say we are both right. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jan 10 07:46:07 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 07:46:07 -0000 Subject: Krums Future In-Reply-To: <001101c2b822$9cb1ebe0$f98402c7@home> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49541 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "BoBaFeTT" wrote: > > me(BoBaFeTT) > JKR has been quoted as saying "The new Quidditch captain is not who most think it will be" - thats the only reason I wouldn't say it was Harry > > BoBaFeTT Well, our choices are a new player or an existing player. It's possible for an existing player to get the job, but my hunch is that it will be a new play. It maybe Harry in the beginning, but I stand by Ron as the new keeper, and I think by the end of the story, Harry will make Ron the captain. Of course, there is alway the Krum factor confusing the issue. I think Krum will be there, but would they let a professional player on what amounts to a high school team? Maybe Krum will be coach and captain, but won't be a player. I'm exited to see who the member of the reserve team will be. Where is that next book? ANSWER! We need answers! Just a thought. bboy_mn From srsiriusblack at aol.com Fri Jan 10 07:57:33 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 02:57:33 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Krums Future Message-ID: <14.6e13b4d.2b4fd6ed@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49542 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "BoBaFeTT" wrote: > > > > me(BoBaFeTT) > > JKR has been quoted as saying "The new Quidditch captain is not who > most think it will be" - thats the only reason I wouldn't say it was Harry > > > > BoBaFeTT > Personally, I would like to see the new Captain be Angelina Johnson. First off, Oliver Wood thought she was superb, and secondly, she braved the Goblet of Fire and submitted her name. ( That is assuming she still has one year left at Hogwarts.) Regardless, I would like to see the new Captain be a girl. JKR has made it somewhat clear that Quidditch is played equally well by both genders; however, more focus has always been placed on the male players, and to my best recollection, there haven't been any female Quidditch captains at Hogwarts during Harry's schooling. T'would be a nice change if you ask me. Also, I agree with others that Ron just might make the team... or at least be a reserve player. It's time for Ron to start receiving a little recognition for himself. -Snuffles, who *still* thinks Ron is going to be quite the character. "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From voldemort at tut.by Fri Jan 10 08:07:05 2003 From: voldemort at tut.by (Alexander) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:07:05 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Questions: Dumbledore as student, other magic schools, Potter money, Muggle money exchange In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8910441195.20030110100705@tut.by> No: HPFGUIDX 49543 Greetings! > annemehr wrote: aayc> I am proposing a Wizarding import business. Any Witch aayc> or Wizard who had both business talent and exposure to aayc> the Muggle world growing up (and thus enough aayc> familiarity with it) could establish a prosperous aayc> "front" business in the Muggle world. They would aayc> exchange wizard money for muggle money at Gringott's aayc> and place orders with Muggle farmers and suppliers aayc> with it for raw goods such as food, lumber, brass, aayc> etc., then sell it to wizarding artesans and grocers aayc> wholesale where it enters the wizarding economy. Part aayc> of the profit then goes back to Gringott's for more aayc> Muggle money. Muggle money that enter the WW economy because of payment for school books are definitely not enough, though. For this system to function, there needs to be a flow in the opposite direction as well: Wizards producing something to be sold in Muggle World. And a fairly large business this must be. I completely agree with the theory, but we still must find some proofs that Wizards are selling something on Muggle market. Sincerely yours, Alexander Lomski, Gryffindor/Slytherin crossbreed, great supporter of McGonagall/Crookshanks SHIP. ----- "One must be a complete paranoic to search for a hedgehog on the top of a fir-tree." (P. Shumilov) From dom-blokey at supanet.com Fri Jan 10 03:16:27 2003 From: dom-blokey at supanet.com (Dom McDermott) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 03:16:27 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Arithmancy References: <001201c2b844$d0f92130$0100a8c0@xyrael> Message-ID: <00a101c2b856$aadacf00$77bf28d5@Blokey> No: HPFGUIDX 49544 From: "Scott Northrup" > Okay, > I know I'm a dork (math major), but is anyone else really interested in seeing what goes on in Arithmancy? I'm guessing we never will, frankly, I don't see JKR inventing a system of magical mathematics. I mean, I can't really see what applications there would be, aside from Time Travel, which I'd bet requires grounding in arithmancy.< Arithmancy isn't a just JKR thing, it actually exists. quick quote (because I can't type well at this time of morning and don't want to bore): from the greek Arithmo, meaning number, and mancy, meaning prophecy. used by magicians and wizards for more than 2000 years to help people analyze and develop their strengths and talents, overcome obstacles, and chart their future paths. based on 2 very old ideas, 1) that the person's first namecontains important clues to their character and destiny, 2) that (according to pythagorus) each of the numbers, between 1 and 9 has a unique meaning that can contribute to the understanding of all things... (taken from The Sorceror's Compaion) "Dom McDermott" From honoriagranger at yahoo.com Fri Jan 10 04:47:53 2003 From: honoriagranger at yahoo.com (Honoria Granger ) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 04:47:53 -0000 Subject: Britain, Greater or Lesser Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49545 Jazmyn posted:I >Saying Scotland ia a part of Britain is like saying Wales is Britain >too. One assumes that 'Britain' in the books refers to just Britain >and not all of Great Britain, or it would state 'Great' Britain. >I'm just referring to what my maps say the country (and parts >thereof)are called. > > I recall from my reading in Celtic legends that in pre-medieval times, Brittany (one of the six Celtic nations) was also known as "Less Britain" or "Britain the Less", as opposed to Britain itself, which was "Great" Britain (the whole island, not just England; Scotland and Wales and England itself at that time being divided into many small kingdoms and principalities). It just means, of course, Big Britain and Small Britain... And as for the arithmancy thing several folks have mentioned, the "-mancy" suffix means "divination". Pyromancy, divination by fire, crystallomancy, divination by crystals, and the like. I would hazard a guess that arithmancy simply means divination by means of numbers...though I do like the idea of a kind of magical calculus...maybe that's why Hermione doesn't find it to be "absolute rubbish", as she does the other sort of divination... Honoria Granger Hermione's Older, Smarter Cousin From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jan 10 08:39:09 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:39:09 -0000 Subject: Questions: Dumbledore as student, other magic schools, Potter money, Muggle In-Reply-To: <8910441195.20030110100705@tut.by> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49546 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Alexander wrote: > Greetings! > > > annemehr wrote: > > aayc> I am proposing a Wizarding import business. Any Witch > aayc> or Wizard who had both business talent and exposure to > aayc> the Muggle world growing up (and thus enough > aayc> familiarity with it) could establish a prosperous > aayc> "front" business in the Muggle world. They would > aayc> exchange wizard money for muggle money at Gringott's > aayc> and place orders with Muggle farmers and suppliers > aayc> with it for raw goods such as food, lumber, brass, > aayc> etc., then sell it to wizarding artesans and grocers > aayc> wholesale where it enters the wizarding economy. Part > aayc> of the profit then goes back to Gringott's for more > aayc> Muggle money. > > Muggle money that enter the WW economy because of payment > for school books are definitely not enough, though. For this > system to function, there needs to be a flow in the opposite > direction as well: Wizards producing something to be sold in > Muggle World. And a fairly large business this must be. > > I completely agree with the theory, but we still must find > some proofs that Wizards are selling something on Muggle > market. > > Sincerely yours, > Alexander Lomski, > Gryffindor/Slytherin crossbreed, > great supporter of McGonagall/Crookshanks SHIP. Bboy_mn: Well, I contacted the original poster with a link to a discussion that took place around Nov 11, 2002 about business in the wizard world. Since other people are now responding on the subject, I thought I would refer people back to a precvious discussion. Anyone who was interested in this subject might want to go back and look at what was said. Here is a link to one of my posts, but there were a couple discussions going on at that time that were related to this. One of them would be a discussion of how the apparent wizard economy could be used to estimate the size of the wizard world. Here is one of the links to the wizard business discussion. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/46451 bboy_mn From srsiriusblack at aol.com Fri Jan 10 08:45:33 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 03:45:33 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Britain, Greater or Lesser Message-ID: <10d.1df268c5.2b4fe22d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49547 In a message dated 10/01/2003 03:29:44 Eastern Standard Time, honoriagranger at yahoo.com writes: > Jazmyn posted:I > > >Saying Scotland ia a part of Britain is like saying Wales is Britain > >too. One assumes that 'Britain' in the books refers to just Britain > >and not all of Great Britain, or it would state 'Great' Britain. > >I'm just referring to what my maps say the country (and parts > >thereof)are called. > > > > > I recall from my reading in Celtic legends that in pre-medieval > times, Brittany (one of the six Celtic nations) was also known > as "Less Britain" or "Britain the Less", as opposed to Britain > itself, which was "Great" Britain (the whole island, not just > England; Scotland and Wales and England itself at that time being > divided into many small kingdoms and principalities). > It just means, of course, Big Britain and Small Britain... > Sadly to the dismay of a good number of us Scots, I truly believe JKR is referring to Britain as a whole. Logically, the duration of the trip from London, platform 9and3/4, to Hogwarts, although not actually named in hours, but rather in shifts of skylines and light to dark, I have always assumed that Hogwarts was in Scotland.... (naturally that is where the best wizarding school in Britain would be located, she says with great haughtiness) But, again, I am extremely BIASED! -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bobafett at harbornet.com Fri Jan 10 06:06:16 2003 From: bobafett at harbornet.com (BoBaFeTT) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 22:06:16 -0800 Subject: Krums Future References: <67.6be4bf7.2b4e9997@aol.com> <001601c2b7c2$5c2a2700$86a242cf@home> <004a01c2b848$49ae21e0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: <001001c2b86e$6394ba80$eaf942cf@home> No: HPFGUIDX 49548 BoBafeTT: >Needless to say I doubt his school year was completed due to the headmaster running off Why would that be? Hogwarts has gone on when Dumbledore has been suspended from duty. Someone would probably have just taken over for the remainder of the year, I should guess. --Taryn Now that I look at it again I realize what I said makes no sense unless you think of it the way I did when I read it. When I read GoF it appeared to me as He was Krums Mentor. So I guess theres a lot of assuming there. Regardless how or why he gets there I think he will be there in some fashion in OotP BoBafeTT From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Fri Jan 10 07:19:23 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 23:19:23 -0800 Subject: Mugwump? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49549 I was just reading up on my American History when I noticed something that likely hasn't been brought up. If it has, *whoops.* In 1884, the Republican presidential candidate James Blaine was linked to a corrupt deal. Some Republicans ditched their party for the Democrats because they were so put off by Blaine's lack of honesty. Anyways, those Republican/Democrat converts were called "Mugwumps," meaning "Holier-Than-Thou." Odd how Dumbledore, in SS is credited with being the Supreme Mugwump... -Dan Moderators' note: Please remember that political discussion is not allowed on the main board, because it becomes too contentious. This message has been allowed because it talks about a historical incident, and only as an example of the use of the word "mugwump." From jferer at yahoo.com Fri Jan 10 14:50:48 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 14:50:48 -0000 Subject: Mugwump? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49550 Danger Mouse:"In 1884, the Republican presidential candidate James Blaine was linked to a corrupt deal. Some Republicans ditched their party for the Democrats because they were so put off by Blaine's lack of honesty. Anyways, those Republican/Democrat converts were called "Mugwumps," meaning "Holier-Than-Thou." Odd how Dumbledore, in SS is credited with being the Supreme Mugwump..." I looked this up in the Encarta disctionary, and it says "independent person: somebody who takes an independent or neutral stance, especially in politics....From Massachusett mugquomp ?war leader.?] So your example fits, althought the definition doesn't agree with the Holier-than-Thou sense. Personally, I like the 'war leader' concept in the origin of the word. From penumbra10 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 10 15:02:42 2003 From: penumbra10 at yahoo.com (Judy M. Ellis ) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:02:42 -0000 Subject: Mugwump? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49551 "Dan" wrote: > I was just reading up on my American History when I noticed >In 1884, the Republican presidential candidate James Blaine was >linked to a corrupt deal. Some Republicans ditched their party for >the Democrats because they were so put off by Blaine's lack of >honesty. [They were called] "Mugwumps," meaning "Holier-Than- >Thou." Odd how Dumbledore, in SS is credited with being the Supreme >Mugwump... No, not odd at all since it is highly unlikey that Dumbledore would have been a part of the muggle American Republican Party of 1884. You have to be a citizen to vote, remember and the Wizarding World, as far as we know, has no political parties? The word itself is American, however, derived from the Algonquin (Indian) dialect *mogki- -* meaning "great" and *--omp* meaning "chief." [Webster's Third New International Dictionary] Although, since 1884, it is rarely used outside of the American political scene, it's primary non-political meaning is simply "a person of importance." Jo Rowling might have come across it in a compendium of unusual words, since she collects unusual words to use as names. I found this link on the web which investigates English from a Brit perspective. It investigates the origins and meanings of the word more thoroughly. :-) Judy http://www.quinion.com/words/weirdwords/ww-mug1.htm From maryblue67 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 10 15:23:29 2003 From: maryblue67 at yahoo.com (Maria) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 07:23:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Waddiwasi In-Reply-To: <1041857887.2715.90633.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030110152329.29531.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49552 An interesting point Katherine made a few days ago (sorry to be so late, but i'm back from Spain and catching up with lots of mail): "This is a useful little spell," he [Lupin] told the class over his shoulder. "Please watch closely." He raised the wand to shoulder height, said, "Waddiwasi!" and pointed it at Peeves. With the force of a bullet, the wad of chewing gum shot out of the keyhole and straight down Peeves's left nostril... -Prisoner of Azkaban, page 131, American hardcover. Why is there a spell for shooting gum out of keyholes and into Peeves's nose? I suppose such a spell could exist, but how would Remus know about it, and why would he regard it as important? I haven't looked much, but I couldn't find any Latin roots for Waddiwasi. The only thing I can think of is that the "wad" at the beginning-does that refer to the gum? But that makes the other question even more important-why does Remus see it as useful? I don't think he means for his students to arm themselves against the dark forces of the world with Juicy Fruit. Why, then? Now me: I think all the ideas about Waddiwasi being about shooting things out of wholes and stuff are interesting, but perhaps too specific. Couldn't Waddiwasi be a spell to make the effects of someone's prank be reversed onto himself/herself? In that case, the gum that Peeves was putting into a whole is shot out of it and into his nose. That would make the spell a lot more useful. Let's say that Peeves was throwing something on people, then the things would fly back and fall on him. Or it could apply to lots of situations. Just an idea... Maria __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Jan 10 15:56:27 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr ) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:56:27 -0000 Subject: Questions: Dumbledore as student, other magic schools, Potter money, Muggle money exchange In-Reply-To: <8910441195.20030110100705@tut.by> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49553 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Alexander wrote: > Greetings! > > > annemehr wrote: > > aayc> I am proposing a Wizarding import business. Any Witch > aayc> or Wizard who had both business talent and exposure to > aayc> the Muggle world growing up (and thus enough > aayc> familiarity with it) could establish a prosperous > aayc> "front" business in the Muggle world. They would > aayc> exchange wizard money for muggle money at Gringott's > aayc> and place orders with Muggle farmers and suppliers > aayc> with it for raw goods such as food, lumber, brass, > aayc> etc., then sell it to wizarding artesans and grocers > aayc> wholesale where it enters the wizarding economy. Part > aayc> of the profit then goes back to Gringott's for more > aayc> Muggle money. > > Muggle money that enter the WW economy because of payment > for school books are definitely not enough, though. For this > system to function, there needs to be a flow in the opposite > direction as well: Wizards producing something to be sold in > Muggle World. And a fairly large business this must be. > > I completely agree with the theory, but we still must find > some proofs that Wizards are selling something on Muggle > market. > > Sincerely yours, > Alexander Lomski, > Gryffindor/Slytherin crossbreed, > great supporter of McGonagall/Crookshanks SHIP. > > ----- > "One must be a complete paranoic to search for a hedgehog > on the top of a fir-tree." > (P. Shumilov) You know, I think you are right. As far as we know, the only Muggle money that enters Gringott's is for Muggle-borns' school supplies. I can't think of any other reason for it -- well maybe a small one. In Muggle-Magical marriages with magical children, it may be that the Muggle partner's job is contributing enough of the family income that they need to change Muggle money at Gringott's. Still, that would not add much more, would it? I just had another thought, though! I areas of the world where there are precious metals and gems to be mined, they send the nifflers in. British wizards buy some of this with wizard gold and sell *that* to muggles, thus providing another source of Muggle money! I think this could work. Annemehr From kitteebuddz at yahoo.ca Fri Jan 10 15:36:50 2003 From: kitteebuddz at yahoo.ca (kitteebuddz ) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:36:50 -0000 Subject: Karkaroff as new DADA teacher Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49554 First of all, let me apologize in advance if this subject has already been discussed, as I am both a newbie in this group, as well as a HP fanatic (I recieved all four books for Christmas). It seems to me that Karkaroff is the perfect candidate for the new DADA teacher in book 5. My reasoning goes thusly: 1)"Snape had disliked all of (the) previous Dark Art teachers, and shown it" (GoF, UK/Canadian Hardcover, 2000, p.185). While SS does not perhaps *hate* Karkaroff as much as some of the previous DADA teachers (ie. Lupin), IMHO it is clear from their exchanges in GoF that he does not particularly like Karkaroff either. By DD hiring him, this common theme (which has been present in the last 4 books) would be continued. 2)Sirius says about Karkaroff that "from what I can tell, he's been teaching the Dark Arts to every student who passes through that school of his" (GoF, UK/Canadian Hardcover, 2000, p.291). What better professor for the Defence Against Dark Arts than one who has actually *taught* the Dark Arts? Add this to the fact that he is a DE on the serious outs with Voldemort, and this makes his appointment into this position all the more logical. I believe that Voldemort is referring to Karkaroff when he's talking about the missing DEs and says "one, too cowardly to return...he will pay" (GoF, UK/Canadian Hardcover, 2000, p.565). 3)By the end of GoF, Karkaroff is on the run, and "fears the Dark Lord's vengeance" (GoF, UK/Canadian Hardcover, 2000, p.616). There is clearly no better place for him to hide out than Hogwarts, as DD is headmaster, and (as everybody knows) Dumbledore is the only wizard that has given Voldemort a run for his money. The only flaw that I can see in this theory is a snippet contributed by bboy_mn: > "But JKR implied, maybe even said, it was going to be a woman." (refering to the new DADA teacher) OTOH, if I was JKR (which, obviously, I'm not), I certainly wouldn't want to be giving out too much information on the newest book, and might even leak out a fake spoiler or two, just to keep people on their toes! :D Please, feel free to point out any other flaws in my theory that I may have missed. :) Kbud From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jan 10 17:41:16 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 17:41:16 -0000 Subject: Against Evil!Lupin responses (long) In-Reply-To: <20030110052615.13996.qmail@web40507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49555 Marina said: >> This is what gives Remus such a strong role in presenting the books' theme. Of all the characters we've seen so far, he's the one with the most factors pushing him toward evil -- factors that can't be changed, that won't ever go away. If, in the face of all that, he can still make the right choices, then we can truly know that it's our choices rather than our circumstances that make us what we are.<< But that's not what Dumbledore said. The words are, "It is our choices, Harry, that *show * what we truly are, far more than our abilities." [emphasis mine.] That is not saying our circumstances don't make us what we are. They may, but it's what we choose to do with what we are that's important. Harry is the one who doesn't let his Slytherin leanings define his character. Lupin, unfortunately, has twice chosen to behave in a most untrustworthy way. This is canon. DeathEater!Lupin is conjecture, but perfidious Lupin is beyond all doubt. He betrayed Dumbledore's trust while he was at Hogwarts the first time, and then betrayed Harry and Dumbledore both by keeping back what he knew about Black. Harry does not yet realize how dire a thing this was, but Lupin surely must. If he is not an evil man then he is beyond doubt a weak and treacherous one. We can't have it both ways. If Lupin was sincere when he asked to be forgiven for thinking that Sirius was the spy, if he was sincere when he said that he convinced himself that Sirius was using Dark Arts he had learned from Voldemort to enter the castle, then Lupin did *not* believe there was some chance that Sirius was an innocent man. He did not doubt that Sirius was capable of murder and terrorism. He knew about Pettigrew and the twelve Muggles. He also knew already what the readers do not learn first-hand until the opening chapters of GoF: the Death Eaters were terrorists who had no regard at all for innocent lives, and would kill and torture for sport. They were [insert name of real-life terrorist gang] with wands. If you knew one of them was trying to break into your workplace, would you keep back information that could protect a thousand innocent lives to save your own skin? Lupin chose. He committed an act of breathtaking selfishness, and not all the Dementor-fighting lessons in the world can make up for it, IMO. Once you realize what the Death Eaters are, once you admit that Lupin thought Sirius was one of them, can there be an excuse for what Lupin did? Lupin has admitted to cowardice and thoughtlessness. But he has yet to say, "My selfishness could have cost you your life, Harry Potter," and until he does, I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw a hippogriff. Maria said: >>I found it rather hard to follow this thought, but I understood it this way ? correct me if I?m wrong. I think you?re saying that 1. In order for a life-debt to be created there must be a real threat to the life of the wizard-to-be-in-debt (just, just ), 2. There wouldn?t be a real threat to Pettigrew?s life unless Lupin was really a murderer, i.e. a spy for Voldie and generally evil. << Er, no. Harry's life was unquestionably in danger from Fake!Moody at the end of GoF, and Dumbledore unquestionably saved it. However, no life debt has been acknowledged. So I think an element of jeopardy to the rescuer has to be there. I think the rescuer has to put him/herself in harm's way. I don't think there would be a life debt unless either Sirius or Lupin could conceivably have killed *Harry* to get at Pettigrew. As we read PoA for the first time, it seems that Sirius might do this, but in light of everything we know now, I can't see Sirius killing Harry in cold blood and I don't think Dumbledore would believe it of him either. That would have to mean that Dumbledore thought Lupin might do it. Maria: >>But as for Voldy saying stuff about werewolf cubs ? what happens if a female werewolf becomes pregnant ? from a man or from a wolf? Maybe you can get werewolf cubs<< Sorry, JKR has confirmed in chat that Voldemort was lying and there's no such thing as werewolf cubs. http://www.yahooligans.com/content/chat/jkrowlingchat.html blaise_42 asks: In Chamber of Secrets, Hagrid is supposed to have raised werewolf cubs under his bed. Are these the same kind of werewolves as Professor Lupin? jkrowling_bn: no... Riddle was telling lies about Hagrid, just slandering him FBAWTFT: "Humans turn into werewolves only when bitten" Maria: >>But I think that what JKR is trying to do with Lupin is to show how prejudiced people are ? how such a nice, sweet, kind, smart person is shunned because of what he is for a few hours every month. If he turned out to be a Mighty Evil Voldemort Supporter and we all found out that he'd been pretending all the while, it would have been against JKR's philosophy, no matter what Lupin's choices were or were not. << Would it be against JKR's philosophy to show that a person who was once nice, sweet, smart and kind is capable of choosing to become evil? If evil is truly a choice, then even nice, sweet, smart, kind people may sometimes choose it. Maria: >And yet another thought. While Fake!Moody is cool, he isn't really nice< Oh, he's nice to Neville. Gives him that Herbology book. Harry even thinks it's something Lupin might have done. >>Lupin, on the other hand, *is* extremely nice, Harry feels it, and I don't think you can fake that kind of thing. In this case I'd trust my gut feeling, which is what I do.<< Harry's gut failed to warn him about Quirrell, Lockhart, Riddle, Scabbers, or Fake!Moody. I don't think, despite his boast to Draco about knowing who the wrong sort are, that his track record is very good. Maria: >>Besides, JKR said in an interview that Lupin was one of her favourite characters. << She's also said, same chat as above, that she loves them all, even Dudley. Pippin From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Fri Jan 10 18:06:19 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:06:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Karkaroff as new DADA teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030110180619.90707.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49556 "kitteebuddz " wrote: 1)"Snape had disliked all of (the) previous Dark Art teachers, and shown it" (GoF, UK/Canadian Hardcover, 2000, p.185). [snip] 2)Sirius says about Karkaroff that "from what I can tell, he's been teaching the Dark Arts to every student who passes through that school of his" (GoF, UK/Canadian Hardcover, 2000, p.291). What better professor for the Defence Against Dark Arts than one who has actually *taught* the Dark Arts? [snip] I believe that Voldemort is referring to Karkaroff when he's talking about the missing DEs and says "one, too cowardly to return...he will pay" (GoF, UK/Canadian Hardcover, 2000, p.565). 3)By the end of GoF, Karkaroff is on the run, and "fears the Dark Lord's vengeance" (GoF, UK/Canadian Hardcover, 2000, p.616). There is clearly no better place for him to hide out than Hogwarts, as DD is headmaster, and (as everybody knows) Dumbledore is the only wizard that has given Voldemort a run for his money. The only flaw that I can see in this theory is a snippet contributed by bboy_mn: > "But JKR implied, maybe even said, it was going to be a woman." (refering to the new DADA teacher) Me: While the snippet about the DADA teacher being a woman does seem to put the kibbosh on any male teacher, remember that JKR was also going to have a Weasley cousin in GoF who never materialized and sort of morphed into Rita Skeeter. ;) As for your other arguments, the only problem I can see is that while Snape clearly understands that it is safe for him at Hogwarts, if Karkaroff thought that he wouldn't have fled. From Hogwarts. From what would arguably be a place of complete safety for him. And it's a familiar place to him, as well; when he arrives and calls it "dear old Hogwarts," it seems possible that he was a student there, and possibly fled to Eastern Europe after Voldemort fell, eventually advancing to the headmaster position at Durmstrang. (His dialogue doesn't have an accent when he speaks English, like Krum and the student who asks for wine but doesn't get it). I don't expect Karkaroff to last very long into the fifth book, somehow (and no, I don't think he's the death that would be hard to write). Karkaroff would be a perfect example for Voldemort to use to show his followers what will happen to them if they don't give him complete allegiance. As for the DADA teacher, I suspect instead that it will be someone we haven't met yet, but may possibly be someone of whom we've heard. (Figg or perhaps Fletcher, if the female-DADA thing doesn't happen.) I think that Karkaroff isn't trusting enough to believe Dumbledore if he offers him sanctuary, and I also don't think Dumbledore would trust Karkaroff to teach DADA, even if he offered him shelter. (He's not going to be as cavalier about this post now that Voldemort is back, I believe.) It just doesn't feel like a good fit. I think Karkaroff is going to try to get as far away as possible from Britain as soon as he can. Whether he will succeed in escaping Voldemort and the Death Eaters remains to be seen... --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kethlenda at yahoo.com Fri Jan 10 18:11:31 2003 From: kethlenda at yahoo.com (Kelly L. ) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 18:11:31 -0000 Subject: FILK: In the Eyes of Minerva In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49557 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Caius Marcius " wrote: > Almost 700 filks on HPF - and - would you believe it? - not a single > solo for Minerva McGonagall! > > Until now......... Dear Caius, Thank you for kindly dedicating your McGonagall filk to me. :) I enjoyed it, and it has inspired me to write another McGonagall filk. OK, so it's *about* her rather than from her POV, but here goes: "In the Eyes of Minerva" a FILK by Kelly L. to the tune of "Angel" by Sarah McLachlan; the original is here: http://www.findmidis.com/download.go/830 Sung by HARRY: School rules we were breaking, Risking Basilisk's glance, For Hermione'd been Petrified. And we though Moaning Myrtle Might know something of use, For 'twas at the Heir's hands she had died. We ran down the hallway And trouble was there. McGonagall stood in our way; "What are you doing? She asked us, and I lied, Said, "We're going to see Herm tonight." In the eyes of Minerva, I can see a tear. In that hard-nosed professor There may be a soft heart, I do fear. Behind tortoise-shell glasses There's a glistening I can see In the eyes of Minerva, I could swear I just saw a tear. Final match against Slytherin, For the school Quidditch Cup, And the Gryffs haven't won it in years. And with Wood graduating This may be our last chance. It's the last time that we'll all be here. When the Gryffs were up sixty, I lunged for the Snitch, Then I held that ball in my hands, And there was Minerva-- She was sobbing like mad Into a red-and-gold flag in the stands. In the eyes of Minerva, I can see a tear. In that hard-nosed professor There may be a soft heart, I do fear. Behind tortoise-shell glasses There's a glistening I can see In the eyes of Minerva, I could swear I just saw a tear. In the eyes of Minerva, I could swear I just saw a tear. (Kelly L., 2003) From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Fri Jan 10 18:29:04 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:29:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Waddiwasi In-Reply-To: <20030110152329.29531.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030110182904.10996.qmail@web40501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49558 The usefullness of the Waddiwasi spell was brought up a while ago on this list. Here's a quotation from the Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/spells_w.html "Waddiwasi (wah-di-WAH-see) "vadd" Sw. a soft mass + "vas y" Fr. go there It makes sense because Lupin didn't just make a wad of gum leave that keyhole, but directed it into Peeves' nose. (contributed by Alina) Shoots a wad of gum out of a keyhole Lupin considers this to be a useful little spell. He uses it to remove a wad of gum from a keyhole that Peeves was putting there. The gum then shot up Peevse's nose. (PA7) The "useful spell" that Lupin was showing them was undoubtedly the "wasi" part, in this case with a target word attached, "wad." Again we see how important intention is to magic, since the wad was directed into Peeves' nose by intent with the "go there" part of the spell. In another situation, the spell might be "stolawasi" to send a robe into a student's trunk, but it would only work if the student focused his mind on where he wanted the robe to go." Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Fri Jan 10 18:36:07 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:36:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Karkaroff as new DADA teacher In-Reply-To: <20030110180619.90707.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030110183607.41970.qmail@web40507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49559 "kitteebuddz " wrote that Karkaroff would the ideal candidate for the DADA position. My reply: While Dumbledore hired untrustworthy people for the DADA position before, he didn't know that they were untrustworthy (well, except Lockhart, but then he wasn't a DE). I do not believe for one second that Dumbledore would hire a former Death Eater as a *Defence* against the Dark Arts job. I believe that that's the reason he hasn't given the job to Snape, choosing to hire Lockhart in CS (provided, of course, that Snape really wants the job and it's not just a student rumour). Besides, I think that UK is the last place in the world where Karkaroff wants to be right now. Regards, Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From voldemort at tut.by Fri Jan 10 18:36:22 2003 From: voldemort at tut.by (Alexander) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 20:36:22 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re[2]: Muggle/Wizarding Money Exchange In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <181589838.20030110203622@tut.by> No: HPFGUIDX 49560 Greetings! > annemehr wrote: aayc> I just had another thought, though! I areas of the aayc> world where there are precious metals and gems to be aayc> mined, they send the nifflers in. British wizards buy aayc> some of this with wizard gold and sell *that* to aayc> muggles, thus providing another source of Muggle aayc> money! aayc> I think this could work. Hmm... Malfoys? After all, their wealth comes from somewhere, doesn't it? Though to imagine Lucius trading with Muggles requires quite a stretch of imagination. Then there's the wealth of Potters family... Still unlikely, though. In modern Muggle world movement of precious metals and gems is strictly controlled and monitored by governments, and any "source" of such wealth would immediately attract Muggle attention. Attention of not prime-ministers and presidents, but attention of law enforcement agencies, taxation polices and other institutions whose sole purpose is to strip us of as much money as possible. :) The problem can be solved by introduction of a "third party" - someone who is neither Wizard nor Muggle, and who trades with them both, accepting money of both sides. Though of course this theory directly contradicts the Occam's Razor (which I am a great fan of). Sincerely yours, Alexander Lomski, Gryffindor/Slytherin crossbreed, great supporter of McGonagall/Crookshanks SHIP. ----- "One must be a complete paranoic to search for a hedgehog on the top of a fir-tree." (P. Shumilov) From gregorylynn at attbi.com Fri Jan 10 16:50:09 2003 From: gregorylynn at attbi.com (Gregory Lynn) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:50:09 -0500 Subject: Fleur - Not DADA, how about Ancient Runes References: Message-ID: <000b01c2b8c8$5650c8a0$69756041@ne2.client2.attbi.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49561 Just on the subject of what she could teach. Well, if Snape is actually going to go back and try to spy on the dark side it would be rather difficult to hold down a full time teaching position at the same time don't you think? Perhaps Snape gets a leave of absence and Fleur comes in as replacement potions instructor. I'm with those that dont think Fleur has it in her to be the DADA teacher, but there are classes that we dont know much about that she could teach - like Ancient Runes. There may also be New clases that the students have to take on which she could teach. On the other subject - Her love interest. IMHO it would be easier to write that Fleur was devoured by a hippogriff than to have her fall for Snape... Lupin (on the other hand) - We like Lupin, it would be wonderful if he could find somebody nice to settle down with. We also don't know much about the Veela and their magical abilities - she could hold the key to a cure for Lupin. Pickle Jimmy From ejoq at attbi.com Fri Jan 10 17:51:23 2003 From: ejoq at attbi.com (cbca1126 ) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 17:51:23 -0000 Subject: Longbottoms Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49562 In GOF we are introduced to some of Neville's family history and find out that Neville's parents are at St. Mungos. We also find out that Mr. Malfoy makes large donations to this hospital. Could there be a connection? Malfoy could have been one of the DE that tortured the Longbottoms and therefore has an interest in them not regaining there sanity. I also think that we will find that Neville is alot more "magical" than any one believes. EJ From kethlenda at yahoo.com Fri Jan 10 18:59:58 2003 From: kethlenda at yahoo.com (Kelly L. ) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 18:59:58 -0000 Subject: Longbottoms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49563 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cbca1126 " wrote: > In GOF we are introduced to some of Neville's family history and > find out that Neville's parents are at St. Mungos. We also find out > that Mr. Malfoy makes large donations to this hospital. > Could there be a connection? Malfoy could have been one of the DE > that tortured the Longbottoms and therefore has an interest in them > not regaining there sanity. > > I also think that we will find that Neville is alot more "magical" > than any one believes. > EJ EJ-- I suspect much the same thing you do about Lucius and Mungo's. Anne Mehr wrote a good post about it at some point, and even made up an acronym: MALEVOLENCE, though I can't remember what all the letters stand for off the top of my head. So, welcome aboard the good ship MALEVOLENCE, with Anne and me. :) Also on the subject of Lucius: I've been wondering how he is going to respond to the return of Voldemort. For years, he's been lording it over everyone around him, and now the Dark Lord is back and will likely want to see Lucius fall into step behind him once again. I believe that you can see Lucius's upset in the graveyard scene in GoF- -when he says "can you tell us how this...miracle...was accomplished," I think he feels it's anything but a miracle. Can;t you just see Lucius trying to stage a coup d'etat against Voldemort to become the preeminent Dark Lord himself? Especially now that he almost certainly knows V. was half-Mudblood all along? Kelly L. From tahewitt at yahoo.com Fri Jan 10 18:09:46 2003 From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:09:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: mugwump? In-Reply-To: <1042209521.3321.66465.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030110180946.9877.qmail@web14202.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49564 Dan wrote: > I was just reading up on my American History when I > noticed something that likely hasn't been brought > up. If it has, *whoops.* > > In 1884, the Republican presidential candidate James > Blaine was linked to a corrupt deal. Some > Republicans ditched their party for the Democrats > because they were so put off by Blaine's lack of > honesty. > > Anyways, those Republican/Democrat converts were > called "Mugwumps," meaning "Holier-Than-Thou." Odd > how Dumbledore, in SS is credited with being the > Supreme Mugwump... I think 'mugwump' is one of those words with multiple meanings. I've heard it used many different ways over the years, but most of these escape me at the moment. The American Heritage Dictionary mentions the definition you wrote about, and as a 2nd definition says "anyone who acts independantly, especially in politics". This does sound a lot like Dumbledore. I posted a few days ago that bumblebees live independantly and do not hive (dumbledore is old English for bumblebee). This fits the image of Dumbledore as independant as well. Far less likely is comparing Dumbledore to the mugwumps in William Burroughs' 'Naked Lunch'. Mugwumps in that book are lizard-like humans born without kidneys. They spend their lives in bars drinking glasses of honey. There's not really a polite way of putting this, but their semen is extremely addictive, so while they are drinking honey in bars, people (mostly men) are basically lining up to perform oral sex on them. They also pay the mugwumps for this. The mugwumps in Naked Lunch ARE pretty solitary types, as I recall. Tyler __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From ejoq at attbi.com Fri Jan 10 19:34:11 2003 From: ejoq at attbi.com (cbca1126 ) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:34:11 -0000 Subject: Lucius and Voldemort Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49565 I have wondered why the Malfoy's are such ardent supporters of LV when the are so anti Muggle and half blood. Ofcourse this could just be a hole in the plot that JKR has not noticed. Another question: If the "monster", in the chamber of secrets was supposed to rid the school of those that were not of pureblood, then why was Tom Riddle himself not attacked by it? EJ From katrina_van_tassel_7 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 10 19:41:23 2003 From: katrina_van_tassel_7 at yahoo.com (katrina_van_tassel_7 ) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:41:23 -0000 Subject: What Other Talents Seers Have?/Seeing in Chess In-Reply-To: <002501c2b847$7d6d5060$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49566 Taryn wrote: > ssyc: > >> Personally, I have always had an impression, that his > >> talent in chess was an indication of his *analytical* > >> abilities. Then Laurasia replied: > >Maybe. But in that case surely Hermione would be excellent at chess, > >which, we know, she isn't (or at least, Ron always beats her. > >Suggesting he's got something she hasn't) And then Taryn again: > Exactly. Ron has experience. He's obviously been playing chess for a good deal of time, whereas Hermione obviously hasn't had the experience that he has. > > --Taryn Now me: I'm a long time lurker and this is my first post to the group, and as English is not my native language (and I'm asking for the elves and the MODs help if I write something wrong or unclearly) this may be not very nicely written as well, so I beg you to be patient with my post and please be kind to me. IMHO chess is a game of strategy, analysis yes, but mainly strategy, as it requires the ability to foresee the opponent's intentions and being able to sacrifice some pieces in order to win the game, and at the same time no losing them purposelessly. Chess is a war game where you have to defeat your opponent by getting his king, you use your "army" to do so and you have to keep your own king safe during the battle (i.e. the game). I know that the experience takes its role but the main trait in a gifted chess player is the way he is able to plan in advance many moves, some of his own and some of it's opponent (as part of the opponent's plan and as a reaction to the previous move) in order to achieve success, and to calculate the risk involved in each possible path that can be taken. So, my guess is that Ron is a very clever strategist when he wants, in the way I think Dumbledore is, and I sadly have to say it, Voldemort is as well. Katrina (Blushing for the intromission in the posting and going back to lurking kingdom) From srsiriusblack at aol.com Fri Jan 10 20:19:46 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:19:46 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Against Evil!Lupin responses (long) Message-ID: <12c.1ffd566d.2b5084e2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49567 In a message dated 10/01/2003 12:43:01 Eastern Standard Time, foxmoth at qnet.com writes: > But that's not what Dumbledore said. The words are, "It is our > choices, Harry, that *show * what we truly are, far more than our > abilities." [emphasis mine.] That is not saying our > circumstances don't make us what we are. They may, but it's > what we choose to do with what we are that's important. Harry is > the one who doesn't let his Slytherin leanings define his > character. Lupin, unfortunately, has twice chosen to behave in a > most untrustworthy way. This is canon. > Not saying you are wrong, but inpo, it is an interpretation of canon. Lupin while can be seen as untrustworthy shows difficulty in making decisions which in the way JKR writes them are understandably difficult for him. Lupin has the option of admitting to Dumbledore immediately that Sirius, James, and Peter were illegal Anamagi. This may seem an easy decision to others, but I understand his conundrum. Informing Dumbledore of the Anamagi would betray the bonds of friendship between all of the Marauders. It would show Dumbledore that not only Remus, but Sirius, Peter, and most importantly James had deceived him for years. Tarnishing James and Peter 's( note Peter previous to the discovery of the truth) image to Dumbledore after their deaths, soiling thier memories, and breaking the trust would have been difficult. Of course betraying Dumbledore *is* difficult for Lupin. He knows that he should step forward, but he has doubts, he has shame, and he has the weight of the only friends he has ever had on his shoulder. I also think there is a part of Lupin who may have thought there was a possibility that Sirius was not guilty. > DeathEater!Lupin is conjecture, but perfidious Lupin is beyond > all doubt. He betrayed Dumbledore's trust while he was at > Hogwarts the first time, and then betrayed Harry and > Dumbledore both by keeping back what he knew about Black. > Harry does not yet realize how dire a thing this was, but Lupin > surely must. If he is not an evil man then he is beyond doubt a > weak and treacherous one. in that line of thought, James, Sirius, and Peter are also treacherous. They lied to Dumbledore as well. James, who remained friends with Dumbledore after Hogwarts never told Dumbledore he was an illegal unregistered Anamagus. Also, take into account the scene in the Shrieking Shack where Lupin and Sirius speak to Peter making the point that one should be willing to die for his friends and not betray them. this gives a great insight into how deep the bonds between the Marauders were/are. They kept each others' secrets, and again, Lupin is forced to struggle between that and his loyalty to Dumbledore. > > We can't have it both ways. If Lupin was sincere when he asked > to be forgiven for thinking that Sirius was the spy, if he was > sincere when he said that he convinced himself that Sirius was > using Dark Arts he had learned from Voldemort to enter the > castle, then Lupin did *not* believe there was some chance that > Sirius was an innocent man. He did not doubt that Sirius was > capable of murder and terrorism. He knew about Pettigrew and > the twelve Muggles. He also knew already what the readers do > not learn first-hand until the opening chapters of GoF: the Death > Eaters were terrorists who had no regard at all for innocent lives, > and would kill and torture for sport. > Asking Sirius for forgiveness for thinking that he had been Voldemort's spy does not show anything to me but regret for thinking that one of his best friends had been something so evil. But, if you look at GoF, it is said on many occasions that the period of time around Voldemort's fall was a time when no one knew who they could trust. Depsite the bonds with which Lupin struggles during GoF, everyone knew someone in the Marauders was passing information to Voldemort. No one knew who could be completely trusted, although they wanted to trust each other as they always had, and no one knew if people were acting of their own will or under the Imperius Curse. > They were [insert name of real-life terrorist gang] with wands. If > you knew one of them was trying to break into your workplace, > would you keep back information that could protect a thousand > innocent lives to save your own skin? Lupin chose. He > committed an act of breathtaking selfishness, and not all the > Dementor-fighting lessons in the world can make up for it, IMO. > Once you realize what the Death Eaters are, once you admit that > Lupin thought Sirius was one of them, can there be an excuse > for what Lupin did? I understand your arguement. I really do. I just believe that the complexities of the Marauders' relationships made for a most difficult choice. Did Lupin make the correct one? Well, I tend to think in the end, his poor choices- whether selfish or out of some sort of loyalty to his friends- made for a better outcome. Were Lupin to have told Dumbledore about Sirius's dog form - black shaggy dog with ... maarkings.- Dumbledore would have had to inform the MoM, Sirius would most likely have been discovered and would have had the Dementor's Kiss administered to him immediately without question. No one would have ever learnt the truth. Harry would have never known Sirius was his Godfather or of his innocence. I do not deny that Lupin's choices were not always the best. But, I still think that Evil!Lupin is not a real option. Lupin wasn't evil or truly malicious in the intent behind his decisions. He was a man who faced a srtuggle between his friends- who reasonably I consider family- and his mentor/teacher Dumbledore. He shows strength and weakness in the battle inside his mind. Perhaps he chose wrongly. Yet, in the end his choices did make for truths to be learned. Lupin's heart, I think was/is in the right place. > > Lupin has admitted to cowardice and thoughtlessness. But he > has yet to say, "My selfishness could have cost you your life, > Harry Potter," and until he does, I wouldn't trust him as far as I > could throw a hippogriff. Again, I go back to the Shrieking Shack scene. i think in Lupin's admission guilt to Harry over his choices regarding Sirius and telling the truth to Dumbledore, he is asking for forgiveness. Maybe not as directly as he should, but he shows Harry how difficult the decision was and how he laboured over it. Is Lupin a great role model? Maybe not, but evil? Most definitely not, imo. And just how far can you throw a hippogriff? They seem to be awfully big to me. -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 10 20:35:18 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 12:35:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Response to: Lucius and Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030110203518.47752.qmail@web40513.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49568 --- "cbca1126 " wrote: > I have wondered why the Malfoy's are such ardent > supporters of LV > when the are so anti Muggle and half blood. > Ofcourse this could just be a hole in the plot that > JKR has not > noticed. > Another question: If the "monster", in the chamber > of secrets was > supposed to rid the school of those that were not of > pureblood, then > why was Tom Riddle himself not attacked by it? > > EJ That's a really good call. I've read all the books multiple times and I never even thought about the Malfoy's loyal support of a half-blood. The only thing I can see is that possibly, all of Tom Riddle's transformations into Lord Voldemort (making him barely human) somewhat negated his half-blood status in the eyes of Lucius Malfoy. Maybe he became evil and powerful enough that he redeemed himself. Also, Malfoy may have been scared to not follow LV. Tom Riddle and eventually Voldemort loathed his muggle father. So the Malfoys may have been in danger if they chose not to follow LV because his father was a Muggle. This is my first post, so forgive me if my theory is way off. Kathryn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jan 10 20:43:01 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 20:43:01 -0000 Subject: Wizard/Muggle Money and Business. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49569 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr " wrote: annemehr wrote: > ...edited... > Can you imagine being a fully qualified wizard and spending your > life growing plain, ordinary vegetables for other wizards to eat? > -end this part- boy_mn thinks: Yes, I can. Think of Tom at the Leaky Cauldron. How magical is running a pub? While it isn't a magical business, and while it is a relatively simple business, I think Tom uses a lot of magic. Instead of breaking his back and possibly his neck lugging heavy barrels and cases of ale down to the cellar. He waves his wand and the job is done. His ale tap is an enchanted tap that isn't physically connected to the barrels of ale in the cellar, but as Tom taps off pints of ale, the barrels in the cellar magically go dry. When it comes to food, maybe someone orders a plate of chips (french fries to us Americans). Tom waves his wand and potatoes peal themselves, the oil boils itself, and the potatoes jump in, when they are done, they jump out on the plate, and Tom levitates them out to the customer. As far as growing vegetables, think of Hagrid. He grows pumpkins the side of car garages. In a month he grows hedges 20 feet tall. Even in something as simpe as farming, there is a lot of room for magic. A wave of the wand and the fields are plowed. A few month later, a wave of the wand and the crops are harvested. So yes, I believe that there are wizard and witches who have very ordinary job that they do in a very magical way. - bboy_mn -end this part- > > ...edited... > I am proposing a Wizarding import business. Part of the profit then > goes back to Gringott's for more Muggle money. > > Can't you just see it? ... "Creevey Bros. Trading Co., Ltd." > ... Muggle trucks (okay, lorries) arrive all day long and unload > their goods, but no trucks ever take anything out again. Do you > suppose they could be making their deliveries by Floo Powder? > With a really large fireplace? > > Annemehr bboy_mn still thinking: (oowwww... it's making my head hurt) I love this idea that the wizards would treat the muggle world as a foriegn country that they are importing from. I think that's exactly how they do it. I think to some extent the wizard world tries to be a self-sustaining ecomony. They try as much as possible to create all things in the wizard world, but that is nearly impossible, so bright entrepreneurs fill the void with imports from the wizard world. Back in Nov., I made some statement indicating that the wizard economy indicated a pretty substantial wizard world. Although, on the surface that may not seem so. If you simply look at Diagon Alley and say there is nothing here but a few shops, how much could it take to support them. But think of everything that goes into making Fortesque's ice cream; milk, fruit, sugar, cold storage, containers, bowls, spoons, glasses, chairs, tables, etc... Then think of Tom's pub. Where does all that ale come from? Most typical English pubs have a dozen different ales on tap and other ales in bottles. The Leaky cauldron may not have that many, but they must have a few choices, so, several wizard ales, and several wizard liguors. That means farms, grain, yeast, transportation, bottles and barrels, breweries, brewery workers, distilleries, etc.... Think of all the hardware it take to run a brewery or distillery. When you only look at the shop, you don't see much, but when you consider all the hidden industry that's necessary for that shop to be in business, your view of the wizard business world becomes very complex. -bboy_mn-end this part- >Alexander said in another post: > >I completely agree with the theory, but we still must find >some proofs that Wizards are selling something on Muggle >market. > >Alexander Lomski, bboy_mn adds: Just my opinion. I think there are wizard goods that enter the muggle market but I don't see that as a huge industry. Although, it would be pretty hard for a good wizard business man to ignore a market that big. But I think it is limited to a small quantity of finely crafted items like fine custom hand-made furniture and a few special items. It could be common items or product, but very specialized versions of them. For example, in one of my fics, Harry developes a taste for ginger ale/beer. So as a gift, Ron has a muggle bottler bottle some high quality all natural potent tasting ginger ale/beer with Harry Potter's Wizard's Brew labels. Initially, it just something on a small scale as a treat for Harry. But other people like it, so they get Dobby to come up with his own recipe, and turn it into a business. This is an example of a common product, but also a specialty product. There isn't a huge market for potent ginger beer in the muggle world. House-elves make and bottle it using magic, but the ginger beer itself has no magic in it; ginger, hint of lemon, hint of lime, dash of vanilla, that's all. So there is no restriction on selling it to muggles. However, I think when you get into mass production, high volume products, you become a little too noticable to the muggles, especially the tax man who wants to know where your factories are, how much you pay your employees, are you paying you income, Social Security, and business taxes. Nope, once you get beyond a small specialized business, things start to get sticky. Also, since a furniture cabinet can be created with a few waves of a wand, the labor is very low, and it would give you an unfair advantage in the market. The import of muggle goods into the wizard world is much less complicated. - bboy_mn -end this part- > Alexander in another post: > > In modern Muggle world movement of precious metals and gems is > strictly controlled and monitored by governments, and any "source" > of such wealth would immediately attract Muggle attention. > >Alexander Lomski, bboy_mn with some additional thoughts: The value of things seems to be a little different in the wizard world. I'm reminded of the first time Harry enters Gringotts. He sees goblins examining Rubies the size of bowling balls (OK, maybe I exaggerated, it was the size of an egg). In the muggle world, the existance of an uncut clear well-formed ruby crystal the size of an egg would be international news. Yet in the wizard world, it seems to be relatively common. The Grydffindor sword had a cut ruby the size of an egg. I don't think that diminishes the actual dollar or galleon value of rubies, but it does make there existance much more common than in the muggle world, so you couldn't bring one into or out of the muggle world without someone noticing. So this is the dreaded 'me to'/'I agree' post. I believe that there is commerical interaction between the muggle world and the wizard world, but it has to have some controls and limitation to prevent problems with the muggle authorities. While we haven't seen it in canon, I have to believe there is a branch of the wizarding government that controls commerce between the two worlds. Definitely something that needs to be regulated. -bboy_mn-end this part- bboy_mn with a last note: Some people find references to fan fiction annoying, pointless and off topic, but fan fiction is someone's expression of their view of the wizard world. It describes a way in which one person has resolved unknowns in the wizard world, a way in which someone has come up with practical solutions to problems that aren't dealt with in canon. In expanding the HP world through fiction, you run into a lot of problems that need solutions, and no solution equals no or a bad story. But we do that here all the time; we 'fill in the blanks'. Valid relevant references to fan fic are just descriptions of how one person filled in those blanks. But I will also say the invalid irrelevant references have no place in the discussion. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From mb2910 at hotmail.com Fri Jan 10 21:14:55 2003 From: mb2910 at hotmail.com (Meira B) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 23:14:55 +0200 Subject: He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, You-Know-Who and Voldemort. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49570 I'm not sure if this has been brought up before (ad nauseatum, probably), and if it has, my honest apologies. There is the theory that compares Voldemort to Hitler. Voldemort hates anyone who isn't a pure-blooded wizard, even though he isn't one himself (his dad was a muggle and his mom a witch). Hitler hated anyone who wasn't of the "Arian" race (tall, blond hair and blue eyes), and particularly the jews, when he himself wasn't an "Arian", also, both of them tortured and killed a lot of people, etc.... There are those that deny that the holocaust has ever existed, and that it has all been an invention of the jews, that it's not logical, etc. (Some of those who denied the whole thing were Hitler's followers themselves...) (I hope it's not taboo to discuss this in this group...) Some people in the books say "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named" instead of Voldemort. Dumbledore says that fearing the name increases fear of the thing itself, and I always thought that HWMNBN and "You-Know-Who" simply meant that people just didn't want to say "Voldemort". Could it be that people who say HWMNBN say that because they want to live in denial? that they refuse to acknowledge that such a person can exist? *takes out her copy of PS* Ah, yes, (I was worried about movie contamination...) Ollivander says to Harry "After all, He Who Must Not Be Named did great things - terrible, yes, but great." (p. 65 Bloomsbury edition). That is just one example that I found. There are probably others throughout the books that say HWMNBN instead of YKW. Ollivander might be one of those that want to deny that Voldemort's Reign of Terror has ever existed. Sirius, Lupin, Harry, Dumbledore, they're all people who are aware that VOldemort did horrible things and they don't try to deny it, which is probably why they don't call him HWMNBN, and they all think that not calling people by their proper name is silly, which is why they don't say YKW. Just throwing in my two knuts, Meira. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jan 10 21:24:35 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 21:24:35 -0000 Subject: Lucius & Voldie'sWorld (was: Longbottoms) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49571 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly L. " wrote: > Kelly wrote in part: > > Also on the subject of Lucius: I've been wondering how he is going to > respond to the return of Voldemort. For years, he's been lording it > over everyone around him, and now the Dark Lord is back and will > likely want to see Lucius fall into step behind him once again. > > ...edited... > > Kelly L. bboy_mn: Lucius has a pretty comfortable and certainly a wealthy life. But how stable is it now that the Dark Lord is back? True killing people and torturing muggles might be great fun, but has Lucius or any of the Death Eater pause to think over these thirteen year, what it is that they will have if Voldemort becomes 'king'? True Voldemort will take care of his closest supporters; he will give them wealth, power, perhaps immortality, and many muggles to keep them entertained. But what world will they inherit? A world in ruins, in chaos; economy and infrastructure destroyed. The world a field of ashes, which would make Voldemort King of Ashes. Which would make Lucius Crown Prince of Ashes. (Some would argue that an 'S' should be substituted for the 'h', but we'll let that go for now.) To get wealth, you have to take it from somewhere, but how much wealth can a world plunged back into, if not the stone ages, then at least the dark ages produce? How long before the well runs dry? Not long I think. How eager is the rest of wizard Europe or the rest of the world going to be to do business with wizard Britain, if Voldemort takes over? He doesn't seem like a very reliable trading partner. So, in my eyess, the entire UK wizard world falls apart, and logically, or logically to an insane megalomaniac, Voldemort solution to chaos and instability will be to rule with an iron hand, to become more oppressive, which, of course, will only make the problem worse, and downward the spiral goes until the world of Voldemort comes crumbling down. The trouble with insane, unstable, self-absorbed, megalomaniac is that they are so short sighted. Evil is the architect of it's own doom. Lucius has a good life, is he really willing to plunge it into chaos just so some insane, unstable, megalomaniac can be lord and master of all he surveys? He's pretty stupid if he is. That's my story of doom and gloom, and I'm sticking to it. bboy_mn From dorigen at hotmail.com Fri Jan 10 21:42:51 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 21:42:51 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lucius & Voldie'sWorld Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49572 >True Voldemort will take care of his closest supporters; he will give >them wealth, power, perhaps immortality, and many muggles to keep them >entertained. If you're Malfoy, this is what's important. > >But what world will they inherit? A world in ruins, in chaos; economy >and infrastructure destroyed. I think what Voldemort/Malfoy/etc. want is domination over the *wizarding* world. This will give them free rein to do whatever they want in the Muggle world as well. Since there are (IMO) so many more Muggles, and they have so many more resources, than there are wizards, in a Voldemort-dominated world the Muggles will serve as an endless supply of cattle/slaves to give the wizards whatever they want (as opposed to the current policy of separation, containment, and Muggle protection). Trouble will spill over into the Muggle world -- things like the Pettigrew massacre and the levitations at the World Quidditch match will happen more often -- but generally the Muggle world will be stable. The wizarding world will indeed be in chaos, probably worse than the first Voldemort War, but Voldemort's supporters will be comfortable, powerful, wealthy, and as safe as anyone can be with someone like Voldemort in power. Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From wynnde1 at aol.com Fri Jan 10 21:59:12 2003 From: wynnde1 at aol.com (wynnde1 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 16:59:12 EST Subject: Hogwarts in Scotland (was Britain, Greater or Lesser) Message-ID: <19c.f08e1ff.2b509c30@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49573 Snuffles wrote: "Sadly to the dismay of a good number of us Scots, I truly believe JKR is referring to Britain as a whole. Logically, the duration of the trip from London, platform 9and3/4, to Hogwarts, although not actually named in hours, but rather in shifts of skylines and light to dark, I have always assumed that Hogwarts was in Scotland." Now me: There is canonical evidence that Hogwarts is in Scotland: Firstly, in CoS, we hear that the flying Ford Anglia was seen by someone from Peebles (which, for those who may not know, is in the southern part of Scotland, just south of Edinburgh). Also, in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, there is mention of an unconfirmed Acromantula colony in Scotland. The existence of which can of course be confirmed by Harry and Ron. :-) Wendy (Who is currently living in Scotland - and loves it! - but will be moving to California later this month, where there won't be much chance of seeing JKR doing her shopping, as I did once at a department store in Edinburgh). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kethlenda at yahoo.com Fri Jan 10 22:02:18 2003 From: kethlenda at yahoo.com (Kelly L. ) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 22:02:18 -0000 Subject: Basilisk and Pure Blood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49574 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cbca1126 < ejoq at a...>" wrote: > I have wondered why the Malfoy's are such ardent supporters of LV > when the are so anti Muggle and half blood. > Ofcourse this could just be a hole in the plot that JKR has not > noticed. > Another question: If the "monster", in the chamber of secrets was > supposed to rid the school of those that were not of pureblood, then > why was Tom Riddle himself not attacked by it? > > EJ Possibilities: (a) Riddle was a Parselmouth, and was able to "talk" the basilisk out of attacking him. Especially since the alternative, for the basilisk, was being confined to the Chamber once again. (b) The basilisk can't tell the difference between purebloods and the less pure. Left to its own devices, it would attack everybody equally. It attacked "Mudbloods" because Riddle set it on Mudbloods, not because of a prejudice of its own. Kelly L. From kethlenda at yahoo.com Fri Jan 10 22:08:36 2003 From: kethlenda at yahoo.com (Kelly L. ) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 22:08:36 -0000 Subject: Against Evil!Lupin responses (long) In-Reply-To: <12c.1ffd566d.2b5084e2@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49575 Snuffles wrote, as part of a long and very cool post, I also think there is a > part of Lupin who may have thought there was a possibility that Sirius was > not guilty. I'm going to have to agree. Otherwise, Lupin wouldn't have so quickly jumped to the question "unless you switched...without telling me." If he had believed Sirius unquestionably guilty, there would have been a much longer argument about that. I think Lupin always considered the remote possibility that the Potters * had* switched Secret-Keepers without telling Lupin. Kelly L. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jan 10 22:21:15 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 22:21:15 -0000 Subject: He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, You-Know-Who and Voldemort. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49576 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Meira B" wrote: > > Meira B: > ... Voldemort hates anyone who isn't a pure-blooded wizard, even > though he isn't one himself .... > ...edited... > Meira -end this part- bboy_mn: I think Voldemort hates muggles for what they have done to him. In his warped distorted eyes, a muggle corrupted him; contaminated him, and that is unforgivable. Speaking as Voldemort: My lineage and heritage have been destroyed. My blood has been contamnated by foul muggle blood; I have been corrupted. We must make sure that this abomination never happens to another wizard. We must fight to mantain the purety of wizard blood and preserve our heritage for all time. Follow me and I will lead you to a great new age of wizards. Where pure wizards will rule and those contaminated by filthy mudblood will be destroy. Let no other wizard child have to endure the self-hatered that I endure. Follow me and I will give the purebloods wealth and power beyond all their dreams. I and I alone, the greatest wizard of all time, can lead you to this great victory. ...oh yeah, and I will be king of the universe, you will all call me lord, and spend all your time kissing my scalely bu... Robe... my robe.. the heam of my robe. Seems fair to me. Me again: see my point? -bboy_mn -end this part- > Meira continues: > > Some people in the books say "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named" instead of > Voldemort. > > Just throwing in my two knuts, > Meira. bboy_mn adds: Think about magic and how it is invoked. It is usually invoked with words. Words are not merely the power to offend in the wizard world, the are the power to create and destory. So some words are treated with great caution. I seriously doubt that wizard having a conversation about 'Avada Kedavra' sit around saying the words over and over again as they talk. I'm sure the say 'the killing curse' or the ' deadly forbidden curse', because using the words might accidentally invoke the charm. Much too dangerous. So words are extremely powerful things that are treated with great respect. Now for peoples names. How do you call the devil? You do it by speaking his name. Anybody remember the movie 'Beetle Juice' (probably spelled wrong, but you know what I mean). How were they able to call Beetlejuice to their aid? How did they call him to their side? They said his name three times. To invoke the name of satan is to call him to your side. To invoke the name of Voldemort is to call him to your side. Also, Voldemort was very mysterious, no one really knows much about him. Now that he seems to be gone, you could be talking ill of him, only to discover that he is sitting at the next table. A very dangerous thing to do. The devil does not like to be insulted, and he does not easily forgive such insults. There is also a possiblity that one of satan's angels (death eater) might be near by and take vengence of his own, or inform satan (Voldemort) that you spoke ill of him. No... if you want to keep the devil out of your life, it's best to never speak of him. If possible, it's best to never even think of him. Best to let the devil rest. See my point? In world where words have powerful magic, the last thing you want to do is incant the word that calls evil to your side. Just a few thoughts. Although, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jan 10 22:41:15 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 22:41:15 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts in Scotland - Curious Steve In-Reply-To: <19c.f08e1ff.2b509c30@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49577 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, wynnde1 at a... wrote: > > Now me: > > There is canonical evidence that Hogwarts is in Scotland: Firstly > , in CoS, we hear that the flying Ford Anglia was seen by someone > from Peebles (which, for those who may not know, is in the southern > part of Scotland, just south of Edinburgh). ...edited... > > :-) > Wendy bboy_mn who teeters dangerously on the brink of Off Topic: I'm curious, do you think the train from Kings Cross to Hogwarts goes through Glasgow or Edinburgh. I alway thought Glasgow because after studying maps of Scotland I decided that Hogwarts was in Northwestern Scotland. But since it goes near Peebles which is near Edinburgh, it would appear that I might be wrong. Although, I have great resistance to admitting that I might be wrong. I know to get to various destinations in the UK, you have to start at different train stations. So from Kings Cross are you more likely to catch at train to Glasgow or Edinburgh? I based my guess on the location of Hogwarts but looking for isolated areas with mountains and lakes, and the best area seemed to be northwestern Scotland either straight north or northeast of Fort Williams. Glen Cannich or Monadhliath Mountains seem like likely areas. Keep in mind, I'm in Minnesota, so I'm drawing conclusions from very limited knowledge. Just curious. bboy_mn From suzchiles at pobox.com Fri Jan 10 23:15:26 2003 From: suzchiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:15:26 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizard/Muggle Money and Business. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49578 > boy_mn thinks: > So yes, I believe that there are wizard and witches who have very > ordinary job that they do in a very magical way. Another example: the witch who bets half of her eel farm at the QWC in GoF. In fact, one of the things I love the most about the Harry Potter books is the normal and ordinary lives they lead. Arthur works diligently at a low-paid government job (much like employees of Muggle governments). Mollie is a homemaker with a house full of children. Tom at the bar; Madame Rosemertra owns her small tavern; Madame Malkin the seamstress, who measures robes the old-fashioned way and without a whole lot of magic. Except for their magical abilities, they could all be our friends or neighbors or even ourselves. It's a wonderful thing. Suzanne From Audra1976 at aol.com Sat Jan 11 00:51:38 2003 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:51:38 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Basilisk and Pure Blood Message-ID: <119.1d71ce17.2b50c49a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49579 << > Another question: If the "monster", in the chamber of secrets was supposed to rid the school of those that were not of pureblood, then why was Tom Riddle himself not attacked by it? >> Me: Simply because the bailisk was to obey the heir of Slytherin, and Tom Riddle was the heir, pureblood or not. Audra From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 10 21:01:07 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 13:01:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Dumbledore Detached? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030110210107.53549.qmail@web40506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49580 --- srsiriusblack at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 09/01/2003 17:33:35 Eastern > Standard Time, > christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com writes: > > > > I don't believe that Dumbledore is evil in the > sense that he means harm to > > everyone, but could he, due to his great age (Have > we seen any of his > > comtempories?) have grown a little detached from > the WW? Perhaps he does > > not take the threat of Voldemort quite seriously > or sees it as a chance to > > be 'entertained' by events. > Snuffles said: I think that plenty of examples are provided to show > that Dumbledore is quite > progressive and understands the impact that Lord > Voldemort's return will have > on the WW. I say: I'm completely agreeing with Snuffles on this one. Think about the speech Dumbledore gave at the end of year feast in GoF. About how LV murdered Cedric. And his conversation with Sirius about gathering the "old crowd" back up to fight LV. He is completely aware of the threat of LV's return. He knows that until the MoM believes that LV has returned to power, that he is the only person fighting this battle. IMHO, I think it's an insult to Dumbledore and all the wisdom and character that we have seen of him to even suggest that he's disillusioned about the threat of LV or that he would *ever* find humor in the events. ~Kathryn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 11 00:58:30 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants ) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 00:58:30 -0000 Subject: Against Evil!Lupin responses (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49581 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999 " \ > DeathEater!Lupin is conjecture, but perfidious Lupin is beyond > all doubt. He betrayed Dumbledore's trust while he was at > Hogwarts the first time, and then betrayed Harry and > Dumbledore both by keeping back what he knew about Black. > Harry does not yet realize how dire a thing this was, but Lupin > surely must. If he is not an evil man then he is beyond doubt a > weak and treacherous one. That lupin took unjustifiable risks, concealed vital information and violated Dumbledore's trust is not in dispute, either by me or by Lupin himself, or by any of the other characters who know what's going on. But I think you're using words like "treacherous" and "perfidious" a bit cavalierly, which tends to dilute their meaning. Lupin's wrongful actions resulted from a combination of youthful recklessness, failure of nerve, and the inability to properly balance conflicting emotional pulls. They did not result from moral degeneracy. It's not like Peter's betrayal of the Potters or, say, Karkaroff's selling out his comrades to save his own skin, which is the sort of think I like to reserve words like "perfidious" and "treacherous" for. Lupin's actions are really not so different from Harry's in CoS. Harry doesn't tell Dumbledore about hearing the basilisk's voice in the walls. He knew perfectly well it was important information, but he didn't tell because he was afraid Dumbledore would think he was crazy. If he had told, Dumbledore and Snape might've figured out early on that there was a basilisk involved. It's sheer luck that no one died as a result of Harry's silence. The fact that Lupin has character flaws that have led him astray in the past and may lead him astray again in the future doesn't make him any different from anyone else in the books, with the arguable exception of Dumbledore. Look how often we find ourselved discussing the harm that has been done, or may yet be done, by Ron's jealousy, Percy's blind respect for authority, Sirius' temper, Hermione's high-handedness, Snape's grudge-holding, etc, etc. I'm sure that everyone's personal foibles will be used for plot fodder in the future, and I don't expect Remus to be immune. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From lilypotter at gosympatico.ca Fri Jan 10 21:42:56 2003 From: lilypotter at gosympatico.ca (hedwigpotter2003 ) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 21:42:56 -0000 Subject: Against Evil!Lupin responses (long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49582 First I would like to express my relief and frankly my joy for having found this board. I have been roaming around another Yahoo board where I could exchange with adult fans -sometimes. It is however quickly getting overtaken by the younger crowd and I was getting desparate. I really wish I would have found this address much earlier. better late then never. I quickly went through some of today's discussion and will do more later after the house is quiet again but I did find a snippet from Maria that needs to be rectified a tad(although I must say how impressed I am of everyone's knowledge of the work - I will learn much). In the discussion around Lupin's evilness you said dementors could have been used to Sirius' smell and may have been attracted to it during the Quidditch match. May I point out that Sirius later explains that Dementors don't see, they can only feel human emotions and therefore could not hurt his soul as much when taking a dog shape inside Azk. English is my second language so please forgive mishaps when they occur! Great to be here! "hedwigpotter2003" From kewiromeo at aol.com Sat Jan 11 00:10:00 2003 From: kewiromeo at aol.com (kewiromeo at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:10:00 EST Subject: Discrimination in the WW Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49583 We all love Lupin because he was a nice cuddly Werewolf. He taught the students all they needed to know about hinkypunks and grindylows. But it just occured to me durring my Harry Potter reading time, why would these be considered dark creatures? Just cause they are partialy ferocious, dangerous creatures. But you don't see them having a class teaching them how to throw a stick to get a dog to leave you alone. The WW seems to hate everything that isn't their way. Just because pictures don't move, well they're boring. They hate werewolves, vampires, giants, spiders and just about everything including halfbreeds. I started to think that it would be nice for Harry and any other student to have a nice shield spell or something at at least blocks a spell. And then it dawned, I don't see how anything in the DADA class has anything really to do with DADA. Which brought me to my point that Mad Eye Moody would be returning, as he is the only one out of all the teachers that seems to know anything about the Dark Arts. But then again we don't know much about him, and who knows if JKR even cares about the class having anything to do with the Dark Arts. Tzvi of Brooklyn "Im ain ani li mi li" (If I am not for myself then who is for me?) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From honoriagranger at yahoo.com Sat Jan 11 00:40:59 2003 From: honoriagranger at yahoo.com (Honoria Granger ) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 00:40:59 -0000 Subject: Scotland the Brave...and the Magical! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49584 >>Wendy posted: >>There is canonical evidence that Hogwarts is in Scotland: Firstly >>in CoS, we hear that the flying Ford Anglia was seen by someone >>from Peebles (which, for those who may not know, is in the >>southern part of Scotland, just south of Edinburgh... bboy_mn posted: >I based my guess on the location of Hogwarts but looking for isolated >areas with mountains and lakes, and the best area seemed to be >northwestern Scotland either straight north or northeast of Fort >William. Glen Cannich or Monadhliath Mountains seem like likely >areas. I always, from the first book, believed Hogwarts was certainly located in Scotland, simply because of the length of the journey involved and the way the countryside is described as changing en route. Scotland is the only place it could be, and of course JKR being Scottish and all.. I could see Hogwarts in the incredibly beautiful Mamore Forest/Ben Nevis area around Fort William (having travelled extensively in the area), or Kintail, or up in the Torridon region and beyond: Glen Affric, Loch Maree, Achnasheen (it's *really* empty around there) area. The Cairngorms and Grampians are suitably grand, but I think they seem too "populated" these days, what with ski resorts and all that: but of course Hogwarts wouldn't be visible to the snow bunnies... I'm sticking to Glen Affric, a particularly lovely glen... Honoria Granger Hermione's Older, Smarter Cousin From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sat Jan 11 00:57:56 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 18:57:56 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Basilisk and Pure Blood References: <119.1d71ce17.2b50c49a@aol.com> Message-ID: <3E1F6C14.5C9C4770@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49585 Audra1976 at aol.com wrote: > > << > Another question: If the "monster", in the chamber of secrets > was supposed to rid the school of those that were not of pureblood, > then why was Tom Riddle himself not attacked by it? >> > > Me: > > Simply because the bailisk was to obey the heir of Slytherin, and Tom > Riddle > was the heir, pureblood or not. > > Audra > Its also quite possible the Basilisk didn't care who was purebred or not, nor could it even tell. Some people seem to assume the Basilisk was working on its own, when Tom was likely directing it and telling it who to attack. Jazmyn From srsiriusblack at aol.com Sat Jan 11 01:01:31 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 20:01:31 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Dumbledore Detached? Message-ID: <2d.294df557.2b50c6eb@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49586 In a message dated 10/01/2003 19:55:44 Eastern Standard Time, katydid3500 at yahoo.com writes: > IMHO, I think > it's an insult to Dumbledore and all the wisdom and > character that we have seen of him to even suggest > that he's disillusioned about the threat of LV or that > he would *ever* find humor in the events. > Completely agreed here. The scene in GoF to which you refer about Dumbledore speaking to the students about Cedric and Harry makes me burst into tears every time I read it. We talk a lot about Dumbledore's wisdom, strength, and sense of humour in this group, but we also need to remember his unfading compassion for everyone. Truthfully, I think he even shows compassion for Voldemort. It is in Dumbledore's understanding of each person in his life where the compassion can be seen. -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From srsiriusblack at aol.com Sat Jan 11 01:02:29 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 20:02:29 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Basilisk and Pure Blood Message-ID: <36.36386cfc.2b50c725@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49587 In a message dated 10/01/2003 19:53:05 Eastern Standard Time, Audra1976 at aol.com writes: > << > Another question: If the "monster", in the chamber of secrets > was supposed to rid the school of those that were not of pureblood, > then why was Tom Riddle himself not attacked by it? >> > > Me: > > Simply because the bailisk was to obey the heir of Slytherin, and Tom > Riddle > was the heir, pureblood or not. > Also, important to remember that Riddle/Voldie was/is a parseltongue. He could communicate with the Basilisk. ;) -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Sat Jan 11 01:12:50 2003 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 01:12:50 -0000 Subject: DADA Purpose - Was Discrimination References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49588 Thinking about dark arts, we don't know most of what quirallmort and lupin taught the class (I think we can safly assume that Lockhart's were worthless) but I suspect that DADA is meant to teach the survival attirbutes to the children, not specific curses. As far as we know, to use a curse you just concentarte and say the spell (Acrico or whatever). Even the unforgivables don't seem to be complicated, although I suspect that teaching people how to command imperioed victims might be required. Is transforming someone into a toad dark arts? Apparently not, its transfiguration. Is poisoning someone dark arts? Apparantly not, its Potions and therefore Snape's job. I suspect that DADA is meant to teach (or rather train) people into the proper mindstate to defend yourselves. It includes basic knowledge of dark creatures that might attack you so that at least you have some form of preparation. It may include lessions on how to cast charms (but would that not be Flickwick's baliwick), but I think its bringing them all together as a whole. Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Sat Jan 11 01:17:24 2003 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 01:17:24 -0000 Subject: Longbottom for HB Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49589 Has anyone figured that Neville Longbottom might be the head boy in seventh year? That may seem odd, but here are his qualifications. 1) He may be scared of snape, but he does not let him (or Malfloy) get him down, 2) He's real, he's not some hero that people look up to. (can you imagine Colin asking Harry for advice?) 3) He does keep the rules, rather than Harry who breaks them all the time. 4) He's stable and undistracted by any direct involvement in the war. His parents stand as a lession of the costs of opposing the dark side and he'll be able to sypersize with the new round of orphans. Just a few thoughts Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stormlass at yahoo.com Sat Jan 11 01:07:16 2003 From: stormlass at yahoo.com (snapesrighthand) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 17:07:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Death in Book 5 - My guess In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030111010716.725.qmail@web14511.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49590 --- Pepsiboy wrote: > Hedwig sandwich, anyone? > ;-) > Actually, Rowling did mention in some interview that Harry may have a new pet soon. I have personally wondered if Hedwig is an animagus. Is that too far fetched? Hagrid picked her. alex __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From snorth at ucla.edu Sat Jan 11 01:26:42 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 17:26:42 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Longbottom for HB References: Message-ID: <007301c2b910$883cb390$0100a8c0@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 49591 Chris wrote: > 3) He [Neville] does keep the rules, rather than Harry who breaks them all the time. You know, I always figured that Harry would be made a prefect/HB by Dumbledore because it would allow Harry more freedom; he could be out later without worrying about retribution from Snape or Filch. With this added bit of freedom, Harry would be more able to carry out his duties as Dumbledore's "champion" (or whatever... he breaks the rules, but a lot of times it's for a good reason). That's just a guess, of course. -Scott From srsiriusblack at aol.com Sat Jan 11 01:35:28 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 20:35:28 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Longbottom for HB Message-ID: <10.2b0caef7.2b50cee0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49592 In a message dated 10/01/2003 20:20:55 Eastern Standard Time, christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com writes: > Has anyone figured that Neville Longbottom might be the head boy in seventh > year? That may seem odd, but here are his qualifications. > > 1) He may be scared of snape, but he does not let him (or Malfloy) get him > down, > > 2) He's real, he's not some hero that people look up to. (can you imagine > Colin asking Harry for advice?) > > 3) He does keep the rules, rather than Harry who breaks them all the time. > > 4) He's stable and undistracted by any direct involvement in the war. His > parents stand as a lession of the costs of opposing the dark side and he'll > be able to sypersize with the new round of orphans. I really like this theory. I have always been one to think that Neville has yet to shine, but he will most certainly do so. To quote Mister Ollivander, "We can expect great things from Neville Longbottom". Neville has always held a special place in my heart. And, I like some of the other theories we have discussed her regarding him., particularly that he, himself, may be under a memory charm which could be the reason for his bumbliness. ( there's another one of my silly words that really isn't a word, really) Neville has just as much to avenge Lord Voldemort for as Harry, in mho. He was raped of his parents and his life has not been, from what I can tell of his Grandmother, the absolute best. People are constantly telling him what a fool he is and how inept and talentless he is. I hope I am not remembering this from the CTMNBN and it was actually in the books, Neville mentions something about having thought he was a Squib. ( I just wanted to hug him, "Bless his little heart." in a Mrs. Weasley voice) But, Neville is a Gryffindor, and there is a reason for it. We may not know why right now, but I think when it comes down to it, Neville is going to prove himself to be just as brave and talented as any other in his house. To sound a bit coarse, Neville has in a way had it worse than Harry in the wrath of Lord Voldemort. Harry's parents are dead, but Neville has been forced to see just what Voldemort could do to people without killing them. He may even think his parents would have been better off killed by Voldemort and that there suffering at St. Mungos is a far worse sentence than death. ( I tend to agree with that thought) Neville will rise up from humble magical beginnings to become a great wizard! -Snuffles donning a Neville Longbottom for Head Boy Badge. "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From srsiriusblack at aol.com Sat Jan 11 01:38:09 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 20:38:09 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Death in Book 5 - My guess Message-ID: <81.2588d992.2b50cf81@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49593 In a message dated 10/01/2003 20:31:10 Eastern Standard Time, stormlass at yahoo.com writes: > Actually, Rowling did mention in some interview > that Harry may have a new pet soon. I have > personally wondered if Hedwig is an animagus. Is > that too far fetched? Hagrid picked her. I love the last line of your post. So right when read as one of the trio might say it. I don' know if it is too far fetched. Anything is possible... BUT! I would think that if Hedwig were an animagus, Crookshanks would have at some point tried to let everyone know. After all, our big flat faced ginger friend is very good at knowing when something isn't what it appears to be. -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From srsiriusblack at aol.com Sat Jan 11 01:48:49 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 20:48:49 EST Subject: NEW DADA Teacher Message-ID: <4f.298d09c9.2b50d201@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49594 I knew I had read it somewhere.... but with a computer problem this week I hadn't been able to get my web browsers to work properly.. now that I have... JKR says in an interview to CBBC Newsround that there will be a new Defence Against the Dark Arts Teacher and it will be a woman. ( I am still standing by my certaintity that it will NOT be Fleur Delcour... urgh, how I loathe her) The interview can be seen at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/uk/newsid_2269000/2269270.stm and it was given in Sept. 2002. I still think our new DADA professor will be a new character- i.e. Not Mrs Figg or Fleur "Look at my silvery hair and tell me you will give me the world" Delacour. It would be nice for her to be an adventurer with real life experience in fighting the dark arts under her belt. And, I still want her to be Snape's interest. It might soften him up a bit. Of course, for Snape not to despise her, she would have to know just as much about Curses and Evil as he does, but let's hope she has a gentler demeanour. -Snuffles, still praying Snape finds love. :) "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Jan 11 02:28:44 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 02:28:44 -0000 Subject: Death in Book 5 - My guess In-Reply-To: <20030111010716.725.qmail@web14511.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49595 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, snapesrighthand wrote: > --- Pepsiboy wrote: > > Hedwig sandwich, anyone? > > ;-) > > > > Actually, Rowling did mention in some interview > that Harry may have a new pet soon. I have > personally wondered if Hedwig is an animagus. Is > that too far fetched? Hagrid picked her. > > alex bboy_mn: So do you suppose that Hedwig is not up in the owlery during her free time, but down at the Three Broomstick quaffinf frothy ales and consorting with questionable warlocks. ;) Has to be a massively oppresively boring life as an animagus in hidding. I'm surprise Wormtail didn't have a nervous break down. Maybe while the Weasley we asleep, Wormtail went out on the front porch for a cigarette and a brew. Then again, maybe not. I think there is something special about Hedwig, maybe she is just enchanted, but there is something unique about her. On the other hand, how many animagus in hiding can one book have? Just a thought. bboy_mn From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sat Jan 11 02:40:42 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 18:40:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Against Evil!Lupin responses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030111024042.23217.qmail@web40505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49596 hedwigpotter2003" I quickly went through some of today's discussion and will do more later after the house is quiet again but I did find a snippet from Maria that needs to be rectified a tad . In the discussion around Lupin's evilness you said dementors could have been used to Sirius' smell and may have been attracted to it during the Quidditch match. May I point out that Sirius later explains that Dementors don't see, they can only feel human emotions and therefore could not hurt his soul as much when taking a dog shape inside Azk. Me: Welcome, Hedwigpotter! Actually, Sirius says in PoA: "They could tell that my feelings were less -- less human, less complex when I was a dog..." That IMO means that the dementors could feel his emotions, just not as well as when he was in human form, and could have felt it at the Quidditch match. So I think my argument stands, while I also think that the dementors were really driven to the game by the fans' emotions and not by Sirius. Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sat Jan 11 02:43:28 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 18:43:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Against Evil!Lupin responses (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030111024328.18389.qmail@web40508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49597 Pippin: DeathEater!Lupin is conjecture, but perfidious Lupin is beyond all doubt. He betrayed Dumbledore's trust while he was at Hogwarts the first time, and then betrayed Harry and Dumbledore both by keeping back what he knew about Black. Harry does not yet realize how dire a thing this was, but Lupin surely must. If he is not an evil man then he is beyond doubt a weak and treacherous one. We can't have it both ways. If Lupin was sincere when he asked to be forgiven for thinking that Sirius was the spy, if he was sincere when he said that he convinced himself that Sirius was using Dark Arts he had learned from Voldemort to enter the castle, then Lupin did *not* believe there was some chance that Sirius was an innocent man. He did not doubt that Sirius was capable of murder and terrorism. He knew about Pettigrew and the twelve Muggles. He also knew already what the readers do not learn first-hand until the opening chapters of GoF: the Death Eaters were terrorists who had no regard at all for innocent lives, and would kill and torture for sport. Maria replies: DE Lupin is conjecture, I?m glad we agree with this. But calling him perfidious is much too strong. Yes, Lupin was weak and selfish in this matter, as he himself acknowledged. Furthermore, his weakness and selfishness - his flaws, seem to me to be further proof of his non-evilness. There?s no such thing as an ideal person, everyone has drawbacks and weak spots. Remus happens to have a big one, but he?s only partly to blame. Look at it this way: from early childhood Remus Lupin was taught the hard way not to trust people easily, nor to confide in them. He was incredibly happy to have any friends and was afraid to lose them. Lupin is a werewolf, and is for this reason distrusted by the whole WW. As a boy, he thinks it wonderful to be trusted for a change, and by such a prominent figure as Dumbledore. When he broke Dumbledore?s trust and started roaming Hogwarts grounds every full moon with his friends of course he feared to tell him about it! Then, when he grew up and left the greenhouse environment of the school it became even harder for him, he encountered distrust all the time. It became even more important for him to retain Dumbledore?s good opinion. So, not telling DD that Sirius was an Animagi ? the only thing, really, that Lupin should have told him ? was a sign of weakness, not treachery, and there?s a big step from that to evilness. I think that Lupin in one of JKR?s best creations yet. He is a real person, who is both strong (for it takes an incredibly strong person to bear such a burden as werewolfishness) and weak, ruthless and kind, capable of both love and hate, who has known both suffering and happiness, both of which influenced his character in good and bad ways. BTW, I?m sure we?ll find many faults with Sirius before long. Lupin?s behavior was a terrible mistake ? but people make mistakes. Hasn?t Sirius made a mistake when he convinced James to make Peter the Secret-Keeper? I once made a suggestion that Sirius not only suspected Lupin of being a spy, he also made James suspect Lupin, and I think that?s why Sirius is both Harry?s godfather and best man at Lily & James? wedding. Was that not a terrible mistake as well? It certainly led to a worse end than Lupin?s mistake. Making a mistake, even if it is a dire one, does not mean that one is a bad and untrustworthy person. But if you learn from your mistakes, you become a better person. Lupin learned a severe lesson in PoA, and I don?t doubt for one minute that he drew conclusions from it. As for Lupin not saying in his last conversation with Harry that his selfishness could have killed all of them etc., well, he is the type of person IMO who broods over things painful to him and never gets them out of his system. He is very reserved then, much more reserved than he ever was ? because he is mentally punishing himself. (?Harry had the impression that Lupin wanted to leave as quickly as possible.?) I think that he feels he doesn?t deserve whatever good things Harry or Dumbledore might say or did say to him ? ?Yes, Remus, you made a mistake, but don?t judge yourself too harshly,? ?You're the best Defense Against the Dark Arts- teacher we've ever had!? But these are just my ideas ? stuff that has just popped into my head. One of Pippin?s strongest arguments against Lupin: They were [insert name of real-life terrorist gang] with wands. If you knew one of them was trying to break into your workplace, would you keep back information that could protect a thousand innocent lives to save your own skin? Lupin chose. He committed an act of breathtaking selfishness, and not all the Dementor-fighting lessons in the world can make up for it, IMO. Once you realize what the Death Eaters are, once you admit that Lupin thought Sirius was one of them, can there be an excuse for what Lupin did? Maria: The way you put this almost made me cry, really it did. And as I couldn?t write a response to it myself, I?ll just say that I take Snuffles? position on this question ? Snuffles wrote: I just believe that the complexities of the Marauders' relationships made for a most difficult choice. Did Lupin make the correct one? Well, I tend to think in the end, his poor choices- whether selfish or out of some sort of loyalty to his friends- made for a better outcome. Were Lupin to have told Dumbledore about Sirius's dog form - black shaggy dog with ... maarkings.- Dumbledore would have had to inform the MoM, Sirius would most likely have been discovered and would have had the Dementor's Kiss administered to him immediately without question. No one would have ever learnt the truth. Harry would have never known Sirius was his Godfather or of his innocence. Maria said: >>I found it rather hard to follow this thought, but I understood it Er, no. Harry's life was unquestionably in danger from Fake!Moody at the end of GoF, and Dumbledore unquestionably saved it. However, no life debt has been acknowledged. So I think an element of jeopardy to the rescuer has to be there. I think the rescuer has to put him/herself in harm's way. I don't think there would be a life debt unless either Sirius or Lupin could conceivably have killed *Harry* to get at Pettigrew. As we read PoA for the first time, it seems that Sirius might do this, but in light of everything we know now, I can't see Sirius killing Harry in cold blood and I don't think Dumbledore would believe it of him either. That would have to mean that Dumbledore thought Lupin might do it. Maria replies: Thanks for clarifying what you said earlier. I find your theory on how a life-debt can be created interesting, but I want to offer another one. IMO a life-debt is created when the rescuer shows extraordinary unselfishness and generosity when saving another persons life when it would have been only too easy to stand back and let events take their course. Harry shows it when he spares the ?murdering traitor? responsible for the death of his parents ? great generosity IMO, when James? friends who loved James even more than Harry and felt his death more acutely (because they actually knew him) were ready to kill Peter. When Dumbledore saves Harry?s life in GoF he does not have to solve any moral dilemma of this kind. He has no reasons *not* to save Harry?s life, moreover, it?s his duty. It?s just as well founded by canon as yours, Pippin (i.e. not at all ). But by this theory Lupin doesn?t have to be evil and capable of murdering Harry in order for a life-debt to be created. Maria: >>But I think that what JKR is trying to do with Lupin is to show how prejudiced people are ? how such a nice, sweet, kind, smart person is shunned because of what he is for a few hours every month. If he turned out to be a Mighty Evil Voldemort Supporter and we all found out that he'd been pretending all the while, it would have been against JKR's philosophy, no matter what Lupin's choices were or were not. << Pippin: Would it be against JKR's philosophy to show that a person who was once nice, sweet, smart and kind is capable of choosing to become evil? If evil is truly a choice, then even nice, sweet, smart, kind people may sometimes choose it. Maria replies: No, it?s not against her philosophy, but IMHO there are many examples of nice, smart (or potentially nice, as you like it) turned evil ? Crouch Jr., Voldemort himself, Quirrell, Peter Pettigrew, and, I?m sure, many DE?s. IMO all of them reflect this aspect of her philosophy. Making Lupin reflect it too is going overboard. I stick to what I said earlier. Maria: >And yet another thought. While Fake!Moody is cool, he isn't really nice< Pippin: Oh, he's nice to Neville. Gives him that Herbology book. Harry even thinks it's something Lupin might have done. Maria replies: Lupin isn?t only nice to Neville ? he is nice to everybody and, moreover, his niceness shows in almost everything he does or says (except when talking about Snape or in the Shrieking Shack, but then he?s only human ). Moody is only nice to Neville, and he has a reason to be ?nice.? But I?ll agree that being/acting nice is not an indicator or anything (). Pippin: Harry's gut failed to warn him about Quirrell, Lockhart, Riddle, Scabbers, or Fake!Moody. I don't think, despite his boast to Draco about knowing who the wrong sort are, that his track record is very good. Maria replies: OK, Harry is trusting; you?ve made your point and I withdraw this argument . It wasn?t really an argument anyway. I?ll only add that he did realize that Lockhart was a fraud, and I don?t really see how *anyone* can suspect a *rat* of being evil. Besides, how could Harry suspect Quirrell when he had such meet food to feed his suspicions as Snape? BTW, thanks to Pippin for pointing out the werewolf cub thing in the chat! I just realized that I?ve seen that chat before, but my memory failed me again, so thank you for clearing up the matter. And as we?re not supposed to post separate ?I agree? posts, I?d like to seize the opportunity and say that I completely agree with Snuffles? and Marina?s posts on this subject ? you say it so much better than I do! Also, I'm glad that the amount of people coming to Lupin's defense steadily increases - maybe we can talk Pippin out of Evil!Lupin as she asks . Regards, Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 11 02:58:23 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants ) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 02:58:23 -0000 Subject: Life-debts (Was Re: Against Evil!Lupin responses (long)) In-Reply-To: <20030111024328.18389.qmail@web40508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49598 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Maria Kirilenko wrote: > > IMO a life-debt is created when the rescuer shows extraordinary unselfishness and generosity when saving another persons life when it would have been only too easy to stand back and let events take their course. Harry shows it when he spares the "murdering traitor" responsible for the death of his parents ? great generosity IMO, when James' friends who loved James even more than Harry and felt his death more acutely (because they actually knew him) were ready to kill Peter. > > > > When Dumbledore saves Harry's life in GoF he does not have to solve any moral dilemma of this kind. He has no reasons *not* to save Harry's life, moreover, it's his duty. > Ooh, very original theory, and I think I like it! For one thing, it explains why Snape thought he could repay his life-debt to James by saving Harry from Quirrelmort's curse in PS/SS. After all, if you have to be in danger to get someone to owe you a life-debt, it would stand to reason that you also have to be in danger to repay it, yet Snape was in no danger as he muttered the counter-curse. It's the fact that Snape had to overcome his hatred in order to do it that made his rescue of Harry meaningful enough to count as "life-debt payment." Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sat Jan 11 03:09:01 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:09:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Longbottom for HB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030111030901.36401.qmail@web40511.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49599 Christopher Nuttall wrote: Has anyone figured that Neville Longbottom might be the head boy in seventh year? That may seem odd, but here are his qualifications. 1) He may be scared of snape, but he does not let him (or Malfloy) get him down, 2) He's real, he's not some hero that people look up to. (can you imagine Colin asking Harry for advice?) 3) He does keep the rules, rather than Harry who breaks them all the time. 4) He's stable and undistracted by any direct involvement in the war. His parents stand as a lession of the costs of opposing the dark side and he'll be able to sypersize with the new round of orphans. Me: First of all, you only become Head Boy in the seventh year, so it's a bit yearly to make predictions for this. But prefects are chosen in the fifth year, so in OoP we'll find out about whether Neville will be made one. Personally, I'm of the opinion that the two most important factors are following the rules and academic excellence as opposed to being socially active and/or popular with everyone (judging by Percy Weasley, whom I can't see as being popular). While Neville follows the rules, he lacks good grades, as Harry says in GoA (the only subject Neville was good at was Herbology, or words to that effect). I'd even say that academic excellence is the more important factor, as James Potter in his day was made Head Boy - and he was the brightest student in his year (or one of them). This is actually why I think that Hermione will be made a prefect, not Harry or Ron. But as there are only 8 Gryffindors that we know of, and at least 2 prefects in a year (because James and Lily were both Head Boy and Girl, chosen from the prefects, and they were in the same House(is that canon?) and year), the school doesn't have many people to choose from. As for your 4th point, I'd be disappointed if the chosing of prefects were a political decision. But, all my points aside, I think that giving Neville recognition as a prefect would give him that much-needed boost of self-esteem, which could influence his grades, personality, and maybe make him Minister of Magic in the end (how many fanfics I've read with Neville as head of MoM)! Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kristen at sanderson-web.com Sat Jan 11 03:12:05 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (gkjpo ) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 03:12:05 -0000 Subject: Death in Book 5 - My guess In-Reply-To: <81.2588d992.2b50cf81@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49600 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, srsiriusblack at a... wrote: > > I love the last line of your post. So right when read as one of the trio > might say it. I don' know if it is too far fetched. Anything is possible... > BUT! I would think that if Hedwig were an animagus, Crookshanks would have at > some point tried to let everyone know. After all, our big flat faced ginger > friend is very good at knowing when something isn't what it appears to be. > Personally, I think that JKR has done the animagus thing to death, and I hope she does not make Hedwig one. If Harry gets a new pet at some point (not necessarily Book 5), my vote is for him to get Fawkes. Phoenix's are notoriously hard to train (FB) and Harry has already started a special relationship with him (foreshadowing?). At some point I think that Dumbledore will sacrifice himself for The Cause and that Harry will get Fawkes (the order of the phoenix owners? ;). However, if it were to happen in book 5, I think it would not happen until the end. Kristen (who still thinks it would be interesting to see if Harry could do powerful directed magic with Fawkes as his wand) From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sat Jan 11 03:13:46 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:13:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Discrimination in the WW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030111031346.19499.qmail@web40512.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49601 Tzvi of Brooklyn wrote: We all love Lupin because he was a nice cuddly Werewolf. He taught the students all they needed to know about hinkypunks and grindylows. But it just occured to me durring my Harry Potter reading time, why would these be considered dark creatures? Just cause they are partialy ferocious, dangerous creatures. But you don't see them having a class teaching them how to throw a stick to get a dog to leave you alone. Me: The Harry Potter Lexicon on dark creatures: Dark Creatures Dark creatures differ from other animals in several important ways: they are magical in nature they often do not have a complete life cycle the way a typical animal would but exist simply as a physical extension of an evil intention they seek actively to harm, often for no other reason than that's what it does (i.e. not for reasons of sustaining it's own life) Regards, Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From susannahlm at yahoo.com Sat Jan 11 04:09:59 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (susannahlm ) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 04:09:59 -0000 Subject: Perfidious!Lupin(WAS: Against Evil!Lupin responses (long)) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49602 Marina wrote: >Lupin's actions are really not so different from Harry's in CoS. >Harry doesn't tell Dumbledore about hearing the basilisk's voice in >the walls. He knew perfectly well it was important information, but >he didn't tell because he was afraid Dumbledore would think he was >crazy. If he had told, Dumbledore and Snape might've figured out >early on that there was a basilisk involved. It's sheer luck that >no one died as a result of Harry's silence. Um. . . No, look, I'm sorry, but I *really* have to disagree here. First of all, Harry did not "know perfectly well it was important information." He didn't have a clue *what* it was. Sure, it might have been "important information," and from an objective point of view, it pretty obviously was. But there was still that slight uncertainty there for Harry; so his rationalization for not telling Dumbledore could be something like: "I don't want him to know--*and* it might not be pertinent, *and* I might simply be losing my mind." There was still a slight, justifying doubt. By contrast, Lupin "knew" that Sirius was a danger, and he knew that Sirius could, at least, disguise himself as an Animagus. And while Harry's speaking up "might've" tipped off Dumbledore (though Harry didn't know that), Lupin's speaking up *would've* tipped off Cornelius Fudge; the man he's looking for is a dog Animagus. That would, quite obviously, be a good thing to know whilst one is conducting a man-hunt. Lupin didn't have even a *fig leaf* of doubt as to the pertinence or the usefull-ness of his information. For Lupin, the rationalization is simply, "I don't want him to know." The second point is this: Harry was a twelve-year-old boy. Lupin was a grown man, in a position of responsibility. And, as Harry is the boy particularly "at risk from Sirius Black," Lupin has a responsibility particularly to him. So, instead of facing up to this responsibility, he withholds information from the *child* most at risk from an escaped terrorist/murderer, even though said child happens to be the offspring of Lupin's own dead best friends, and even though said best friends (Lupin thinks) died at the hands of the very man whom Lupin is now *shielding?* And he does all this *knowingly,* in order to cover his own. . . derriere? Harry's silence in COS is not a commendable thing, to be sure; but at least Harry isn't abusing/neglecting his position. Harry did a cowardly act; Lupin did a cowardly act and a betraying one. Really, Lupin's actions are a whole lot worse here. Derannimer (who still wouldn't go as far as "perfidious") From bebche2 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 11 03:16:05 2003 From: bebche2 at yahoo.com (Peter Shea) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:16:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Do Grown-Up HP Fans Favor PoA & GoF over PS/SS and CoS? Message-ID: <20030111031605.22727.qmail@web20308.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49603 I've always been curious about the differences between the younger HP fans and the adults. Aside from the adult-themed fictions, I've been hard pressed to find ideas & HP subjects that exclusively belong to one group or the other. While re-reading PoA and GoF, it occurred to me that interest in the latter two may be more intense among adults, for the following reasons: The last have more adult characters who play central roles, as opposed to the peripheral positions they occupy in the first two books. Characters like Remus Lupin, Sirius Black, and Barty Crouch (senior & junior) have a psychological complexity and history which make them more compelling than younger characters. Harry & chums move out of the preteen and into their teenage years in the last two books--a transition which introduces conflicts that adults can empathize with (romantic relationships, increased preoccupation with the future and the role money--or the lack thereof-- plays in shaping ones life). I imagine this may seem terribly obvious to some list member--or terribly wrong-headed. But I'd be interested in other views. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From karnasaur at yahoo.com Sat Jan 11 04:25:56 2003 From: karnasaur at yahoo.com (Kristjan Arnason) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 20:25:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: new DADA teacher In-Reply-To: <1042254548.6697.22890.m7@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030111042556.4805.qmail@web10408.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49604 Here's a possibility no one's brought up. How about...Mrs. Weasley? She's got no kids at home anymore, and it would horrify poor Ron. Just a thought. K __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From srsiriusblack at aol.com Sat Jan 11 05:10:27 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 00:10:27 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: new DADA teacher Message-ID: <12f.20001ef3.2b510143@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49605 In a message dated 10/01/2003 23:59:20 Eastern Standard Time, karnasaur at yahoo.com writes: > Here's a possibility no one's brought up. How > about...Mrs. Weasley? > > She's got no kids at home anymore, and it would > horrify poor Ron. > > Just a thought. well, she hasn't any experience that we know of- which doesn't mean that it could not be a possibility, but I would think since JKR has implied that she began writing with a pretty good thought on all her characters and plot lines, we would know something of Mrs. Weasley' s talents if she were gifted in DADA. It doesn't quite work if you ask me, but again, I have a strong desire for her to be someone new and exciting to spice up Snape a wee bit. There are, however, quite a few theories running amok out here that Mrs. Weasley will die in OotP. If she *were* the DADA professor, those theories would probably come to fruition. I just don't see her changing from surrogate mum role to amazing DADA role. -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From srsiriusblack at aol.com Sat Jan 11 05:35:37 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 00:35:37 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Do Grown-Up HP Fans Favor PoA & GoF over PS/SS and CoS? Message-ID: <2f.33180e10.2b510729@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49606 In a message dated 10/01/2003 23:57:52 Eastern Standard Time, bebche2 at yahoo.com writes: > I've always been curious about the differences between the younger HP fans > and the adults. Aside from the adult-themed fictions, I've been hard > pressed to find ideas & HP subjects that exclusively belong to one group or > the other. > > While rereading PoA and GoF, it occurred to me that interest in the latter > two may be more intense among adults, for the following reasons: > > The last have more adult characters who play central roles, as opposed > to the peripheral positions they occupy in the first two books. Characters > like Remus Lupin, Sirius Black, and Barty Crouch (senior & junior) have a > psychological complexity and history which make them more compelling than > younger characters. > Harry & chums move out of the preteen and into their teenage years in > the last two books--a transition which introduces conflicts that adults can > empathize with (romantic relationships, increased preoccupation with the > future and the role money--or the lack thereof-- plays in shaping ones > life). > > I imagine this may seem terribly obvious to some list member--or terribly > wrong-headed. But I'd be interested in other views. I might be an oddity, so I am going to comment on this one. I spent a great deal of time avoiding the HP books, as I didn't want to buy into the hype. They sat round my house for a few months even after I bought them because I just didn't think that they could possibly be as fantastic as people had been saying they were.During a bout with the flu, I picked up PS and was hooked. Within the week I read all of the books, and then all I wanted to do was reread them. not having children, it was the writing and the story that captivated me. Granted, I am partial to PoA and GoF more so than the others because of some of your points. The introduction of the pivotal adult characters gave me people I could relate to better where I am now, but even in PS and CoS, I was finding myself relating to Hermione (first and foremost) out of my own school age memories. I actually think that is part of the beauty of JKR's writing. She created a cast of characters who are people everyone knows. We all have someone in our lives who is clever and slightly bossy, someone who has had a tragedy in his/her life that he must overcome, someone who had to rise out behind the shadows of siblings, that one teacher who took the time to guide us, a rival- who to us was close-minded and hateful, a strict but fair mentor, friends who were pranksters, someone(s) who maybe we thought was bad who turned out to be a golden friend... and if you're lucky, maybe you even have/had a Hagrid. ::blush and smile::: ('cos Hargids are darling people) We spend a lot of time analysing each character here, putting forth our own ideas and experiences on them. JKR does a spectacular job in leaving the doors open for us to be able to analyse the characters in this way. We all see ourselves in at least one of them and we all know the others. She gives us enough information to know the characters, but leaves them open to our individual interpretations. Aside from that, JKR created a world I, for one, deeply want to exist. So rare it is that any author creates a fantasy world that you can truly become lost in and want to stay. She also used a style of writing which I find rather brilliant... Her writing ages with the characters. Plot twists and turns, character development and the style of her words grow with each book- which is just ingenious for children's literature; although I do not deem HP strictly children's literature in the least as there is so much that adults see in the books that children will discover as they grow and reread. there is also one other idea I have.... Adulthood is a drag on many levels. Somewhere along the way our inner child is told to shut up and stay hidden. I know quite a few of my friends who are HPfanatics found in the books a part of themselves which they lost somewhere on the journey from childhood into adulthood. The books remind us of the important things in life- family, friends, trust, IMAGINATION, etc. They take us away from bills, traffic, housecleaning and all of the other mundane inconveniences that keep us all from being the creative and cool people we could be if we lived in the WW. just some of my thoughts -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annemehr at yahoo.com Sat Jan 11 06:51:01 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr ) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 06:51:01 -0000 Subject: Do Grown-Up HP Fans Favor PoA & GoF over PS/SS and CoS? In-Reply-To: <20030111031605.22727.qmail@web20308.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49607 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Peter Shea wrote: > > I've always been curious about the differences between the younger HP fans and the adults. Aside from the adult-themed fictions, I've been hard pressed to find ideas & HP subjects that exclusively belong to one group or the other. > > While re-reading PoA and GoF, it occurred to me that interest in the latter two may be more intense among adults, for the following reasons: > > The last have more adult characters who play central roles, as opposed to the peripheral positions they occupy in the first two books. Characters like Remus Lupin, Sirius Black, and Barty Crouch (senior & junior) have a psychological complexity and history which make them more compelling than younger characters. > Harry & chums move out of the preteen and into their teenage years in the last two books--a transition which introduces conflicts that adults can empathize with (romantic relationships, increased preoccupation with the future and the role money--or the lack thereof-- plays in shaping ones life). > > I imagine this may seem terribly obvious to some list member--or terribly wrong-headed. But I'd be interested in other views. > While Snuffles' response was better than mine will be, and I agreed with all of it, I do want to add a few of my own feelings. It is certainly true that there is a lot more to get interested in in PoA and GoF, simply because they have more pages, plot elements, characters, etc. However, I don't find that I really *like* them better than PS and CoS. I know this to be true because I regularly read the books aloud to my daughters (ages 10 and 12) in the evenings, and whenever we finish one book and they are choosing another, I find that I am *not* rooting for or against any of the books to be their choice; I love them all. I have my favorite passages of course, and they are sprinkled throughout all four books. Comparing my thoughts to what my girls say out loud about the books, though, it does seem that I have another layer of identification with the books than they do. While the characters of the children take me right back to when I was their age and I identify quite readily with them, I often at the very same time identify with the adult characters and what they might be thinking about events occurring at any point in the story, *even if that adult character is not present in that scene*. For example, when Harry is getting into danger, and while I am walking right along with him, figuratively speaking, I also find myself stepping right into Molly Weasley's shoes with motherly feelings of concern (I need a stronger word here, though). Of course, in the earlier books, we have fewer adult characters to identify with, but this does not hurt my enjoyment of them at all -- it just seems to be so consistent with the Trio's age and circumstances. As Snuffles pointed out, the story grows with them, and that is very effective. One last thing to add, if I can manage to describe it, is how I take the _goodness_ of the books with me into the real world. They seem to stay with me somehow as I face RL troubles and conflicts. They have been for me a great antidote against discouragement and bitterness I could have succumbed to. It is not in Dumbledore's words that I find this; they just point it out. It is in Harry's actions that I find this encouragement -- in his empathy, his readiness to forgive, and his active concern for the people around him. Of course he's not perfect, but if he was, then his virtues would not shine out for me as well as they do. When I am in a rough spot in life, I would like to be that good. And this comes to me, one way or another, in *any* of the books. So this adult reader, at least, has no strong preferences between the books. I just think my age and experience tend to give me extra levels of understanding. Mind you, I realise that a young person who has had a difficult or complicated life may get still more out of them! Hope this makes sense -- Annemehr From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Sat Jan 11 06:57:47 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 01:57:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: TBAY - Banging About In SHIPs In-Reply-To: <2f.33180e10.2b510729@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030111065747.25617.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49608 "Yes, Elkins, I do know that I'm supposed to be working on Part Seven of my Crouch responses," says Eileen, "But look at that. They're trying to make SHIPs bang! As a fervent shipper and Big Banger I need to be there." Elkins glares down from her hobbyhorse. "You know what I think of shipping. And banging." "Yes, but I can't help it. I'll be back to talk Crouch as quickly as possible." Eileen makes her way to a spot on the quay where a group of TBAYers are watching the ships battle in the sky above. "What a sight," she murmurs. "Oh, look. The Good Ship R/Hr totally dismasted the H/Hr vessel there." Cindy twirls around. "You're a shipper?" she says with distaste. "Guilty as charged. I'm taking Elkins' five step program to non-shipping, but until then... I'm pretty firmly R/Hr." "R/Hr can't bang," says Susanna. "Ships don't bang," says Cindy. "Ships are soppy. They take away from the bangs. I want 38 bangs in OotP, and shipping just means time diverted from bangs, time spent on mushy, sappy teenage romance." "I feel your pain," says Eileen. "In fact, the first time I read GoF, I screamed when Harry said, "They make them all right at Hogwarts." But actually, I quite enjoyed the "romance" in the end." "How?" asks Cindy. "You weren't choking from laughter all through the Yule Ball scene? See, bangs are nice, but you don't really want a 100% bangy OotP, Cindy, trust me. You want a bangy and funny OotP, and JKR's shipping so far has been *very* funny. Teenage love may not be serious, but it's hilarious to see caricatur in people like Ron, Hermione, Viktor, and Harry." "JKR's teenage love ends up with you getting married at nineteen, and dead at the age of twenty-one," says Cindy. "Yes," says Eileen with a frown. "That does bother me more than a little. It seems inevitable that everyone will find their "soulmate" by the end of the series. But oh well, it's a book. Meanwhile, it's fun to watch R/Hr. R/Hr involves Ron and Hermione being funny. I doubt Harry will ever get any more soppy describing that pairing. R/Hr doesn't demand screentime. R/Hr does not detract from your bangs. It gives you something to laugh at between them. Now, H/Hr..." "H/Hr can bang," says Susanna. "You're quite right," says Eileen. "But there's bangs and then there's bangs. The way H/Hr bangs is if there's a love triangle, or even worse, FITD. But this bang detracts from the other bangs. We want bangs that involve bloody ambushes, not Ron discovering that Hermione's cheating on with Harry." "Ron could go evil," suggests Susanna. "You know, despite how often we R/Hers make fun of it, Evil!Ron is the only form of H/Hr that I find acceptable. Evil!Ron would be bangy and fit in with the very bangy plot. But currently, I don't see it - I won't go into that here - and even if he were to go evil, I'd rather not that love be at the root of it. Going to the dark side is a big important thing, and JKR would cheapen her treatment of it to base it off someone being slighted in love. It wouldn't be bangy enough." "Well, what about bangless H/Hr?" asks Cindy. "How come you're so enthusiastic about bangless R/Hr and not bangless H/Hr?" "Because, my dear Cindy, R/Hr will not take up much screentime. It will never be sappy and soppy. Harry will not obsess about it. We'll just see it in the banter between Ron and Hermione. H/Hr means that we'll be subjected to long, serious romance with Harry as a participant. Harry will be too busy snogging Hermione and JKR will cut down on the banging." "But," says Susanna, "You do know that the same goes for H/G." "That would be why I ship N/G," says Eileen, a smile on her face. "But H/G does have the advantage in my mind that it'll take quite a journey to get there. Harry has to notice Ginny's existance first, so he won't have as much time to obsess as he would have over Hermione. Or so I hope. I really am not looking forward to Harry falling in love with anyone. But up with R/Hr, which although completely unbangy, harmonizes perfectly without bangs, will not be sickeningly unreadable, and supplies us with tons of laughs. And now I must get back to Elkins. Have fun Ship watching." Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From srsiriusblack at aol.com Sat Jan 11 06:59:45 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 01:59:45 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Do Grown-Up HP Fans Favor PoA & GoF over PS/SS and CoS? Message-ID: <42.33724550.2b511ae1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49609 In a message dated 11/01/2003 01:51:50 Eastern Standard Time, annemehr at yahoo.com writes: > One last thing to add, if I can manage to describe it, is how I take > the _goodness_ of the books with me into the real world. They seem to > stay with me somehow as I face RL troubles and conflicts. They have > been for me a great antidote against discouragement and bitterness I > could have succumbed to. It is not in Dumbledore's words that I find > this; they just point it out. It is in Harry's actions that I find > this encouragement -- in his empathy, his readiness to forgive, and > his active concern for the people around him. Of course he's not > perfect, but if he was, then his virtues would not shine out for me as > well as they do. When I am in a rough spot in life, I would like to > be that good. And this comes to me, one way or another, in *any* of > the books. > I completely agree with you. Actually, it's funny, a few weeks ago my sweetie and I were driving over a bay-bridge tunnel thing on the east coast of the US, and as I am horrified by bridges and tunnels and go into severe panic attacks, he looked at me and said, "HOw on earth are you going to play Quidditch if you can't go over this bridge with your eyes open?" Suddenly, I was madly empowered (Ok, so maybe I *really* am weird) But it is little things within the books that we carry off with ourselves. And, there is so much wisdom within the books... some of which we may already know, some of which we have learnt from them, and some of which we may have been reminded of in the journeys. I for one see the goodness and virtues that I want to have all the time in my life in the characters.. it's a nice way to be reminded really. -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kelleythompson at gbronline.com Sat Jan 11 07:15:56 2003 From: kelleythompson at gbronline.com (Kelley ) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 07:15:56 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Contacting the Mods Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49610 Hello everyone-- We know some of you have been trying to contact the moderators at this address -- mods@ hpfgu.org.uk -- and the messages have been bouncing back to you. This could be remedied, but there would be some monetary expense to do so. We've worked out another solution instead. To reach the Mods, Elves, and Geists, continue to use the HPforGrownups-owner@ yahoogroups.com address. To reach the Mods only, use this address: MagicalMods@ yahoogroups.com. These addresses will ensure that the necessary people will see your message, and will also help us give you the promptest response. Please feel free to contact us with any questions or concerns you might have. Thanks! --Kelley, for the Mods From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Sat Jan 11 08:58:22 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana ) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 08:58:22 -0000 Subject: Lupin niceness factor & Harry as human Sneakascope Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49611 Maria: >And yet another thought. While Fake!Moody is cool, he isn't really nice< Pippin replied: Oh, he's nice to Neville. Gives him that Herbology book. Harry even thinks it's something Lupin might have done. Now me: Except Fake!Moody *only* gave Neville that book as a round-a-bout and sneaky way to help Harry in the second challenge of the Tri- wizard Tournament. Barty!Moody figured that Harry would ask everyone around him for aid in figuring out how to breathe underwater, including Neville, but Harry did not. In fact, Barty! Moody even said that he was quite frustrated at how "proud and independent" Harry was because he *never* asked Neville for help in trying to find a way to breathe underwater. Barty!Moody even tells Harry that Neville would have told him in a second about gillyweed, if *only* Harry had bothered to ask him. So, Barty!Moody was then forced to stage a conversation with McGonagall asking her if Harry would think to use gillyweed in order to breathe underwater, knowing that Dobby, who owed Harry for setting him free [and worships Harry, too], was listening and then would run straight to Harry with the information. More than once, Harry seems a little unsure of Fake!Moody, especially in the beginning. Harry was rather horrified after Fake! Moody's first lesson showing them the Unforgivable Curses. How much of that was due to his sudden realization that that was how his parent's died, I don't know, but at least some of seems to have been because of Fake!Moody. "They were talking about the lesson, Harry thought, as though it had been some sort of spectacular show, but he hadn't found it very entertaining - and nor, it seemed, had Hermione." [GoF, page 218, 1st American edition] "...Moody turned his magical eye upon Harry. 'You all right, are you, Potter?' 'Yes,' said Harry, almost defiantly." [GoF, page 219] >>Lupin, on the other hand, *is* extremely nice, Harry feels it, and I don't think you can fake that kind of thing. In this case I'd trust my gut feeling, which is what I do.<< Pippin replied: Harry's gut failed to warn him about Quirrell, Lockhart, Riddle, Scabbers, or Fake!Moody. I don't think, despite his boast to Draco about knowing who the wrong sort are, that his track record is very good. Now me: I'll start off by saying that Harry is not a living Sneak-o-scope, and sometimes has trusted the wrong people, but that is because he trusts Dumbledore's judgement about people, except where Snape is concerned. And his feelings toward Snape are totally based upon Snape's constant, vicious mistreatment of Harry, Ron, Hermione, Neville and basically every Gryffindor he comes across. Dumbledore hired Lockhart because no one else wanted the job. Dumbledore never knew Peter Pettigrew was an animagus. The fact that Lupin never told Dumbledore he, Sirius, Peter and James were unregistered Animagi...let me quote the book: "'I sometimes felt guilty about betraying Dumbledore's trust, of course...he had admitted me to Hogwarts when no other headmaster would have done so, and he had no idea I was breaking the rules he had set down for my own and others' safety. He never knew I had led three fellow students into becoming Animagi illegally. But I always mangaged to forget my guilty feelings every time we sat down to plan our next month's adventure. And I haven't changed..." "Lupin's face had hardened, and there was self-disgust in his voice." 'All this year, I have been battling with myself, wondering whether I should tell Dumbledore that Sirius was an Animagus. But I didn't do it. Why? Because I was too cowardly. It would have meant admitting that I'd betrayed his trust while I was at school, admitting that I'd led others along with me...and Dumbledore's trust has meant everything to me. He let me into Hogwarts as a boy, and he gave me a job when I have been shunned all my adult life, unable to find paid work because of what I am. And so I convinced myself that Sirius was getting into the school using dark arts he learned from Voldemort, that being an Animagus had nothing to do with it...so, in a way, Snape's been right about me all along." Lupin obviously regrets his cowardice and selfishness and confesses this to Harry. If Snape is attributed all the these 'heroic' traits as a former DE-spy now working for the good, all while verbally abusing Harry his friends and every Gryffindor he runs across, then I can't see why Lupin must be painted as evil, treacherous and a villian because he did something very stupid and then admits it. Now I want to go over each person you named above. In the case of Quirrell, Harry hates Snape as much, if not more, than Snape hates him and was blinded by these feelings enough to never conclude that Quirrell could be evil while Snape was trying to do good. [Side question: Did Snape tell Dumbledore about his suspicions about Quirrell trying to get the Sorcerer's Stone? I don't think he did or Dumbledore would have had Quirrell, and therefor Voldemort, immediately in hand. Why didn't Snape tell Dumbledore? Hmmm?] Even Quirrell commented that Snape acts like a villian while in the final chamber with Harry in SS/PS. Lockhart was the only person who came forward to take on the position of DADA professor, as Hagrid states in CoS. Harry detests Lockhart because Lockhart embarrasses him constantly, and Harry avoids him whenever possible. He knows he is a vain, pompous, celebrity-fixated git. And he knows that Lockhart doesn't seem to know what he's doing when it comes to performing magic, which is why Harry didn't want Lockhart trying to fix his arm when the bludger broke it in CoS. Harry knows something is "off" about Lockhart, but can't quite put his finger on it - and given all the things going on at Hogwarts that year, doesn't really think about it enough to put all the clues together. Harry is curious, but not nosy. Also, while Harry had his suspicions about Lockhart, he must have concluded that Lockhart wouldn't have published all those books and be so famous in the WW if he was a *completely* clueless git. The fact that it turns out that Lockhart is also on the close side of nasty by trying to erase Harry's and Ron's memories and sacrifice Ginny's life to preserve his fame and fortune was probably quite surprising to Harry since most of the villians Harry encounters want to torture him, tear him limb from limb, kill all muggle-borns and wreck havoc upon the WW and the Muggle world. Lockhart was a very small-minded villian, who, if he'd succeeded in the CoS would have inadvertently allowed Voldemort to come back to life as a strong, human-looking sixteen-year-old. In the case of Tom Riddle and his diary, Harry is so driven by the desire to solve the mystery of the Chamber of Secrets that he uses the diary as a means to an end [sort of a Slytherin trait, eh? :D] to find out what happened last time the chamber was opened. Harry wants to solve the mystery so badly that he ignores Ron's warning to not pick up the diary, and keeps it regardless of the danger it may hold. Harry also believed that Riddle was only a memory that spoke through a diary. He is still quite unfamiliar with many magical things that most wizards would be wary of, and would not even remotely think that Riddle could suck the life out of Ginny and come back to life. Harry was so worried about Ginny that he didn't really focus on Riddle at first, but his attitude changed quickly toward him when he really began to focus on him. As for Scabbers, Harry didn't think he was anything more than a fat, old rat. I'm not going to say that Harry's lack of perception was responsible for not recognizing what Scabbers really was. Heck, an entire family of wizards [yes, I mean the Weasleys!] didn't know that Scabbers was more than a rat for over twelve years! I can't find the quote right now, but I'll keep looking and post it when I find it, but somewhere in PoA, I remember Harry as thinking that he could help trusting Lupin. Diana From andie at knownet.net Sat Jan 11 02:26:06 2003 From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe ) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 02:26:06 -0000 Subject: Harry's Tears In-Reply-To: <20030107052620.71237.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49616 I hate to go back to this topic again... but I thought of a #4 to add to the following list... :) #4. If I remember correctly, while Harry is taking anti-dementor lessons from Lupin, he also sheds a few tears when he is saying how his father was trying to give his mother and himself time to run for it... Harry pretended to be doing up his shoe laces to hide his emotions from Lupin. Sorry, just thought of that one today! grindieloe > What I wrote earlier: > I do remember Harry crying a few times... granted, not > sobbing, but > still... > > 1. You were right about Harry crying in front of > Dumbledore in the > hospital wing. That's 1. > > 2. When Hagrid gave Harry the pictures/photo album of > his parents in > SS... That's 2. > > 3. Doesn't he cry at the end of GoF on Mrs. Weasley's > shoulder? > That's 3. > > Tyler wrote: > I forgot about the picture album tears. I think you're > right there. > But, Harry doesn't cry at the end of GoF. As I > remember it (again, I don't have the books in front of > me, I read borrowed copies), Mrs. Weasley hugged him, > and Harry felt it all rising to the surface. Hermione, > seeing his face all scowled up and about to let loose > with tears, gives him the sleeping potion and he falls > asleep. It was this lack of emotional release that I > found unsettling, and I think this particular episode > of Harry NOT crying is what may be driving the > speculation that his tears will play an important role > later on. > > Tyler From amani at charter.net Sat Jan 11 05:31:11 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 00:31:11 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Karkaroff as new DADA teacher References: Message-ID: <003c01c2b932$a68da800$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49617 Kbud: The only flaw that I can see in this theory is a snippet contributed by bboy_mn: > "But JKR implied, maybe even said, it was going to be a woman." (refering to the new DADA teacher) OTOH, if I was JKR (which, obviously, I'm not), I certainly wouldn't want to be giving out too much information on the newest book, and might even leak out a fake spoiler or two, just to keep people on their toes! :D Me: It wasn't implied. JKR has directly and specifically said this: Lizo: Is there anything that you can tell us about book five? Any new characters? JK: Well, we've obviously got a new Defence Against The Dark Arts teacher because Professor Moody wouldn't want the job again having been locked in a trunk for a year! It's a woman this time. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/uk/newsid_2269000/2269270.stm] I would never believe JKR would purposely and directly lie about her books. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From srsiriusblack at aol.com Sat Jan 11 10:01:01 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 05:01:01 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin niceness factor & Harry as human Sneakascope Message-ID: <11e.1c7ec0cd.2b51455d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49618 Before I start in, please forgive me Diana if I reiterate with much enthusiasm some of what you have said;) In a message dated 11/01/2003 03:58:49 Eastern Standard Time, dianasdolls at yahoo.com writes: > Maria: > >And yet another thought. While Fake!Moody is cool, he isn't > really nice< > > Pippin replied: > Oh, he's nice to Neville. Gives him that Herbology book. Harry > even thinks it's something Lupin might have done. > > Now me: > Except Fake!Moody *only* gave Neville that book as a round-a-bout > and sneaky way to help Harry in the second challenge of the Tri- > wizard Tournament. Barty!Moody figured that Harry would ask > everyone around him for aid in figuring out how to breathe > underwater, including Neville, but Harry did not. In fact, Barty! > Moody even said that he was quite frustrated at how "proud and > independent" Harry was because he *never* asked Neville for help in > trying to find a way to breathe underwater. Barty!Moody even tells > Harry that Neville would have told him in a second about gillyweed, > if *only* Harry had bothered to ask him. So, Barty!Moody was then > forced to stage a conversation with McGonagall asking her if Harry > would think to use gillyweed in order to breathe underwater, knowing > that Dobby, who owed Harry for setting him free [and worships Harry, > too], was listening and then would run straight to Harry with the > information. I always believed that Barty!moody made a mistake in planting ( pardon the pun) the book on Neville as surely he would have heard McGonagal and Snape putting Neville down at some point. But, I also think that in this particular situation we see something that may become a common thread in the Cannon. It seems to me that Voldemort and his supporters under estimate the virtues of goodness and independence that many of their adversaries-::cringe::: 'mudbloods' and 'half breeds' alike may share. For example, Hermione is a muggle born, and yet, she in Harry's position would NEVER ask the aid of random people ( and in all actuality probably no one) in solving anything. As she is our Muggle born "icon" I use her as example. She is fiercely independent and would figure things out on her own- to her own destruction I fear- before asking the help of another. Harry only asks aid from the other two members of the trio. And, I am not sure he actually ever said, "HELP ME". They are his 'marauder-esque" group, and therefor will *always* aid him them. Barty!Moody's assumption that Harry would ask everyone and anyone for help seems to me to be quite a hint. Harry's mum is muggle born- inho, but there are some here that have other theories- therefore his blood is tainted. Barty!Moody sets a precedence in my mind as to how DE's and L.V. suspect the minds of those of impure blood work in giving Neville the book. When I first read GoF I couldn't fathom why of all people Barty!Moody chose Neville to plant the information in. It doesn't make sense as Neville is absolutely the LEAST likely person Harry would go to for help. ( if you are insulted please check my posts on Neville as I think we can "expect great things from" him.) Harry just would not have thought of Neville as a resource for anything other than herbology. Granted Gillyweed is in Herbology, but no one apparently other than the Professors and Neville know of its magical attributes. Hermione, Ron and Harry toil over countless books and never find mention of it- so it isn't something mentioned in the library books on spells and enchantments-'course they NEVER think about Herbology in their quest for an answer.... Actually this brings up a new point on my Neville is going to be great theory. HHR are always looking to spells and enchantments for answers when Herbology is CLEARLY a resource for important information. Neville may just become part of the "gang" as he holds an understanding of something which the trio does not.... But back to the point... Barty!Moody underestimates Harry and his drive and I truly believe this may be the opinion of many a DE on "half breeds" and "mudbloods" ( I apologise if I am ranting,,, it is late but I want to respond) > More than once, Harry seems a little unsure of Fake!Moody, > especially in the beginning. Harry was rather horrified after Fake! > Moody's first lesson showing them the Unforgivable Curses. How much > of that was due to his sudden realization that that was how his > parent's died, I don't know, but at least some of seems to have been > because of Fake!Moody. > "They were talking about the lesson, Harry thought, as though it had > been some sort of spectacular show, but he hadn't found it very > entertaining - and nor, it seemed, had Hermione." [GoF, page 218, > 1st American edition] > "...Moody turned his magical eye upon Harry. 'You all right, are > you, Potter?' 'Yes,' said Harry, almost defiantly." [GoF, page 219 > Me: Barty!Moody is established with Real!Moody's appearance which on all honesty might scare the "bejeesus" ( borrowing a word from a friend) out of a child. But, I agree that Harry approaches Barty!Moody with some trepidation. Barty!Moody is a little spooky with his "constant vigilance" and appearance, but I think this particular scene is more due to Harry's first understanding of just how his parents died.... > > >>Lupin, on the other hand, *is* extremely nice, > Harry feels it, and I don't think you can fake that kind of > thing. In > this case I'd trust my gut feeling, which is what I do.<< > > Pippin replied: > Harry's gut failed to warn him about Quirrell, Lockhart, Riddle, > Scabbers, or Fake!Moody. I don't think, despite his boast to > Draco about knowing who the wrong sort are, that his track > record is very good. > > Now me: > I'll start off by saying that Harry is not a living Sneak-o-scope, > and sometimes has trusted the wrong people, but that is because he > trusts Dumbledore's judgement about people, except where Snape is > concerned. And his feelings toward Snape are totally based upon > Snape's constant, vicious mistreatment of Harry, Ron, Hermione, > Neville and basically every Gryffindor he comes across. OK. Quirrel's story line is hard for even me to grasp when I reread PS. I want it to be Snape. It is logical for it to be Snape. Harry has no reason or experience to NOT trust Quirrel. ( Voldie explains WHY it is Quirrel at the end of PS- well done there) But, it is true- no one would expect poor stuttering professor quirrel > Dumbledore hired Lockhart because no one else wanted the job. Lockhart, although an IDIOT as Harry and Ron both Immediately notice never truly endangered Harry. He was just a baffoon. And, Harry realised it right off. Harry never liked Lockhart. So this is a moot point in trying to explain whether or not Lupin is a baddie ( which I still say he is NOT, most vehemently) > Dumbledore never knew Peter Pettigrew was an animagus. The fact > that Lupin never told Dumbledore he, Sirius, Peter and James were > unregistered Animagi...let me quote the book: > > "'I sometimes felt guilty about betraying Dumbledore's trust, of > course...he had admitted me to Hogwarts when no other headmaster > would have done so, and he had no idea I was breaking the rules he > had set down for my own and others' safety. He never knew I had led > three fellow students into becoming Animagi illegally. But I always > mangaged to forget my guilty feelings every time we sat down to plan > our next month's adventure. And I haven't changed..." > "Lupin's face had hardened, and there was self-disgust in his > voice." 'All this year, I have been battling with myself, wondering > whether I should tell Dumbledore that Sirius was an Animagus. But I > didn't do it. Why? Because I was too cowardly. It would have > meant admitting that I'd betrayed his trust while I was at school, > admitting that I'd led others along with me...and Dumbledore's trust > has meant everything to me. He let me into Hogwarts as a boy, and > he gave me a job when I have been shunned all my adult life, unable > to find paid work because of what I am. And so I convinced myself > that Sirius was getting into the school using dark arts he learned > from Voldemort, that being an Animagus had nothing to do with > it...so, in a way, Snape's been right about me all along." > Lupin obviously regrets his cowardice and selfishness and confesses > this to Harry. If Snape is attributed all the these 'heroic' traits > as a former DE-spy now working for the good, all while verbally > abusing Harry his friends and every Gryffindor he runs across, then > I can't see why Lupin must be painted as evil, treacherous and a > villian because he did something very stupid and then admits it. Thank you! Finally someone agrees with me. See my most recent Lupin posts. This si such a battle in his mind- to tell Dumbledore or not to tell. Lupin is no baddie. Lupin is someone who maintains his loyalties to the only people who have EVER been his friends and more so his family. And it is in these statements that Lupin makes that he also makes an apology- albeit not direct, but Harry "gets it". > > Now I want to go over each person you named above. In the case of > Quirrell, Harry hates Snape as much, if not more, than Snape hates > him and was blinded by these feelings enough to never conclude that > Quirrell could be evil while Snape was trying to do good. [Side > question: Did Snape tell Dumbledore about his suspicions about > Quirrell trying to get the Sorcerer's Stone? I don't think he did > or Dumbledore would have had Quirrell, and therefor Voldemort, > immediately in hand. Why didn't Snape tell Dumbledore? Hmmm?] > Even Quirrell commented that Snape acts like a villian while in the > final chamber with Harry in SS/PS. Snape, by many accounts in these discussion, I feel is more treacherous and evil than Lupin. Quirrel really WAS a threat to Harry. ( sorry, I know I overreact, I do just love Lupin so much) But, Snape withholds valuable information all year is PS to Dumbledore. If Snape had actually told Dumbledore of Quirrel's activities Harry would not have faced Voldie. ( true there would have been little point to the book, but you get my meaning) > Lockhart was the only person who came forward to take on the > position of DADA professor, as Hagrid states in CoS. Harry detests > Lockhart because Lockhart embarrasses him constantly, and Harry > avoids him whenever possible. He knows he is a vain, pompous, > celebrity-fixated git. And he knows that Lockhart doesn't seem to > know what he's doing when it comes to performing magic, which is why > Harry didn't want Lockhart trying to fix his arm when the bludger > broke it in CoS. Harry knows something is "off" about Lockhart, but > can't quite put his finger on it - and given all the things going on > at Hogwarts that year, doesn't really think about it enough to put > all the clues together. Harry is curious, but not nosy. > Also, while Harry had his suspicions about Lockhart, he must have > concluded that Lockhart wouldn't have published all those books and > be so famous in the WW if he was a *completely* clueless git. The > fact that it turns out that Lockhart is also on the close side of > nasty by trying to erase Harry's and Ron's memories and sacrifice > Ginny's life to preserve his fame and fortune was probably quite > surprising to Harry since most of the villians Harry encounters want > to torture him, tear him limb from limb, kill all muggle-borns and > wreck havoc upon the WW and the Muggle world. Lockhart was a very > small-minded villian, who, if he'd succeeded in the CoS would have > inadvertently allowed Voldemort to come back to life as a strong, > human-looking sixteen-year-old. > In the case of Tom Riddle and his diary, Harry is so driven by the > desire to solve the mystery of the Chamber of Secrets that he uses > the diary as a means to an end [sort of a Slytherin trait, eh? :D] > to find out what happened last time the chamber was opened. Harry > wants to solve the mystery so badly that he ignores Ron's warning to > not pick up the diary, and keeps it regardless of the danger it may > hold. Harry also believed that Riddle was only a memory that spoke > through a diary. He is still quite unfamiliar with many magical > things that most wizards would be wary of, and would not even > remotely think that Riddle could suck the life out of Ginny and come > back to life. Harry was so worried about Ginny that he didn't > really focus on Riddle at first, but his attitude changed quickly > toward him when he really began to focus on him. Good point. I haven't been on the list a LONG time, so I don't know how much Lockhart has been discussed. I am only up to post 885 other than the daily posts since I joined. But, I tend to yield to your arguement that Lockhart could have been a baddie... a pathetic baddie, but he was certainly driven by greed and a need to be more than he was. But, again, I really think Harry and Ron saw him for what he was. ;) > As for Scabbers, Harry didn't think he was anything more than a fat, > old rat. I'm not going to say that Harry's lack of perception was > responsible for not recognizing what Scabbers really was. Heck, an > entire family of wizards [yes, I mean the Weasleys!] didn't know > that Scabbers was more than a rat for over twelve years! > I can't find the quote right now, but I'll keep looking and post it > when I find it, but somewhere in PoA, I remember Harry as thinking > that he could help trusting Lupin. > Thank you! No one ever knew! Period. In the end, it is Lupin who brings out the truth. It is Lupin who makes good. Lupin just cannot be a baddie. Yes, he has his own inner struggles and demons, but Lupin only did what he thought was right. Were his loyalties misplaced? In the end, they were not. I still stand by the concept that had Lupin gone to Dumbledore (who I soooo want to call Dumbly-dore as I just reread GoF) Dumbledore would have informed the ministry of Sirius Animagus form, Sirius would have been caught and had the Kiss administered before anyone knew the truth! -Snuffles- who loves Lupin "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bobafett at harbornet.com Sat Jan 11 05:34:29 2003 From: bobafett at harbornet.com (BoBaFeTT) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 21:34:29 -0800 Subject: Student Teacher References: <2f.33180e10.2b510729@aol.com> Message-ID: <000501c2b933$1d53d860$d1aa42cf@home> No: HPFGUIDX 49619 Has anyone thought that Hagrid might be going back to school so he can be qualified or whatever it may be to do magic again? Everyone thinks Student-teacher and assume its a student going to teach but \could be a teach going to student.?. BoBaFeTT [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From srsiriusblack at aol.com Sat Jan 11 10:07:14 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 05:07:14 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Karkaroff as new DADA teacher Message-ID: <61.2bf60b0a.2b5146d2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49620 In a message dated 11/01/2003 05:02:38 Eastern Standard Time, amani at charter.net writes: > Kbud: > The only flaw that I can see in this theory is a snippet contributed > by bboy_mn: > > "But JKR implied, maybe even said, it was going to be a woman." > (refering to the new DADA teacher) > > OTOH, if I was JKR (which, obviously, I'm not), I certainly wouldn't > want to be giving out too much information on the newest book, and > might even leak out a fake spoiler or two, just to keep people on > their toes! :D > > Me: > It wasn't implied. JKR has directly and specifically said this: > Lizo: Is there anything that you can tell us about book five? Any new > characters? > > JK: Well, we've obviously got a new Defence Against The Dark Arts teacher > because Professor Moody wouldn't want the job again having been locked in a > trunk for a year! It's a woman this time. > > [http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/uk/newsid_2269000/2269270.stm] > > I would never believe JKR would purposely and directly lie about her books. > > --Taryn > > thanks Taryn. I posted this earlier on the whole who will be the DADA professor discussion earlier today.. would have done it sooner were it the computer had not been sick all week. But, then I am beginning to wonder if anyone reads anything I post anymore. I tend to yield with Taryn that in this recent interview, JKR would not comment on anything but fact as people all around the world are anxiously awaiting book 5. -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amani at charter.net Sat Jan 11 05:38:40 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 00:38:40 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lucius and Voldemort References: Message-ID: <006001c2b933$b28c3940$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49621 EJ: I have wondered why the Malfoy's are such ardent supporters of LV when the are so anti Muggle and half blood. Ofcourse this could just be a hole in the plot that JKR has not noticed. Me: Well, not many people know about Voldemort's previous identity as Tom Riddle, so they possibly could just now know. (And why did all those Germans follow Hitler when he was the exact opposite of his perfect race?) EJ: Another question: If the "monster", in the chamber of secrets was supposed to rid the school of those that were not of pureblood, then why was Tom Riddle himself not attacked by it? Me: Saying the monster would kill all those who weren't purebloods can't be taken with a translation that it would personally track down purebloods. I doubt it can tell. I think that it more referred to how the Heir of Slytherin would use the basilisk (as they could control it) to hunt down all those who weren't purebloods. And also, that particular bit was part of the legend side of the Chamber of Secrets, and could easily have been a bit altered over the years. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From srsiriusblack at aol.com Sat Jan 11 10:08:56 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 05:08:56 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Student Teacher Message-ID: <1c0.33dc981.2b514738@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49622 In a message dated 11/01/2003 05:06:16 Eastern Standard Time, bobafett at harbornet.com writes: > Has anyone thought that Hagrid might be going back to school so he can be > qualified or whatever it may be to do magic again? > > Everyone thinks Student-teacher and assume its a student going to teach but > \could be a teach going to student.?. I *really* like this idea. Hagrid was expelled under false pretence and he has EVERY right to become a full fledged wizard. I'm with you Bobafett!! :::fingers crossed for my dear loved Hagrid::: Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kewiromeo at aol.com Sat Jan 11 07:45:42 2003 From: kewiromeo at aol.com (kewiromeo at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 02:45:42 EST Subject: DADA and prefects Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49623 Short and sweet just the way I like it. I think JKR likes to introduce a new teacher for the DADA job every year. I mean, why not? How many people have been to a school where there just happened to be one job that no one could hold and they are always looking for another teacher. I've had a few teachers like that. So, we are all arguing who will get the position, and when it comes down to it, it's going to be someone new. The next book will have another new person. I still think Lupin, Moody, Fleur and Krum will all be back, one way or another. Now, on to prefects. Hermoine is the spitting image of Percy. Good grades, bossy attitude, know it all. Harry has to be a prefect cause we love him. And if he isn't made prefect, well he will definately use their bathroom (I don't think you guys need a quote for this one). I mean what does being a prefect entitle? You get the password to the dormitory first, a nice badge, and the ability to boss people around. I think of it like this, there are 1 year prefects, 2 year prefects, and 3 year prefects. 3 year prefects are made in 5th year, 2 year in 6th and the 1 year in 7th. 3 year and 2 years have the option of becoming head boy or head girl. Hermoine can become one in the 5th year and maybe there are more than one per year, and if not, Harry will be in the 6th year. Tzvi of Brooklyn "I like magic" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bobafett at harbornet.com Sat Jan 11 09:53:07 2003 From: bobafett at harbornet.com (BoBaFeTT) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 01:53:07 -0800 Subject: Voldemort: "Peter, You are the weakest link. Good Bye" References: Message-ID: <000b01c2b957$3ef78f60$d1aa42cf@home> No: HPFGUIDX 49624 Voldemort shows no mercy to anyone for any reason He does everything on a whim Now peter goes where he is best protected Shunned by James and pals he went to Volde Volde died he remains in hiding as a rat in a MoM family Discovered there he runs to find and and bring back Volde (but he owes harry) So now what will happen Will he worry that Volde will find out about his debt? if so will he turn on Volde and help clear sirus's name and give all his info to Dumbledore and crew Id say it was a safe bet BoBaFeTT [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sat Jan 11 10:57:33 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 05:57:33 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hogwarts in Scotland - Curious Steve Message-ID: <178.14e918d3.2b51529d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49626 In a message dated 10/01/2003 22:42:42 GMT Standard Time, bboy_mn at yahoo.com writes: > > I'm curious, do you think the train from Kings Cross to Hogwarts goes > through Glasgow or Edinburgh I believe the Glasgow trains leave from London Euston. They don't go from Kings Cross. There are three big railway stations all in a row along the same stretch of road: Kings Cross, St Pancras (with which JKR was confusing Kings Cross, when she envisaged Platform 9 3/4 - I think - I know she wasn't thinking of Kings Cross, but I can't find the ref) and Euston. But given that it's a magical train, I shouldn't think it much matters. It can probably jump track, in the same way as the Knight Bus or the MoM cars can squeeze through impossible spaces. Honoria Granger: >Scotland is the only place it could be, and of course JKR >being Scottish and all.. Just a LOON point. JKR isn't Scottish, except possibly by adoption, although I believe her mother was part Scots. She lives in Scotland and I believe her husband is Scottish. She was born in Chipping Sodbury, in the west of England (any surprise she likes odd names?) and lived her early life near Chepstow, on the English/Welsh borders. ~Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lupinesque at yahoo.com Sat Jan 11 11:23:02 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z ) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 11:23:02 -0000 Subject: Do Grown-Up HP Fans Favor PoA & GoF over PS/SS and CoS? In-Reply-To: <20030111031605.22727.qmail@web20308.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49627 Peter Shea wrote: > While re-reading PoA and GoF, it occurred to me that interest in >the latter two may be more intense among adults, for the following >reasons FYI to anyone who's joined the group since January 2001: the polls section has four polls asking what one's favorite/second favorite/etc. of the novels is. (This is the only way a Yahoo poll allows one to rank choices.) Add your 2 Knuts! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/polls You've hit on my personal reasons for liking these two best, Peter. Basically, PA and GF are darker and more psychologically complex, and JKR impresses her world-creating skills into the service of emotional exploration with inventions like Dementors, Boggarts, and the Imperius Curse. Amy Z --------------------------------------------- Ern jerked the wheel so hard that a whole farmhouse had to jump aside to avoid the bus. --------------------------------------------- From htfulcher at comcast.net Sat Jan 11 11:49:58 2003 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim ) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 11:49:58 -0000 Subject: Question about Snape and Quirrell Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49628 Forgive if I've missed it in the archives (usually do), but several questions occurred to me concerning PS/SS. At the Holloween Ball, Quirrell lets in a Mountain Troll, races to the Great Hall and pretends to pass out from fear. Everyone panics, Dumbledore sends the students to their towers and the teachers are supposed to follow him to the dungeon, where the fainted Quirrell has indicated the troll to be. Snape is suspicious and sneaks away. Now this is what I don't quite find logical. Quirrell later tells Harry that after the troll incident Snape never again trusted him. Further, he says that snape was 'always suspicious' of him. (p. 210 UK paperback, throughout) I ask myself, Why would Snape be suspicious of him at all before this incident? Or was he suspicious of Quirrell from the time of the great feast when Harry's scar hurt him for the first time? (p. 94) (The movie would 'clarify' this by having Snape glance suspiciously at Quirrell when the scar incident happens but Canon makes no such reference.) Why would Snape break (unnoticed?) from the group of teachers going to the dungeons to look for the troll and go straight to the 3rd floor corridor? Did he find Quirrell with Fluffy or did he get there first? If the former, why didn't he go to Dumbledore straight away? If the latter, how did he meet up with Quirrell -- and McGonagall -- in toilet after Ron and Harry defeated the troll? (p. 127-131) Further, why didn't anyone tend to the poor fainted Quirrell in the Great Hall (which would have prevented him going after the stone)? Did the students just clobber him as they stampeded to their dormitories? Quirrell indicates his sorrow that the troll didn't beat Harry to death and that Snape only received a wound. Does this mean that the troll was also supposed to kill Harry? If so, how could Quirrell (or the troll) know that Harry and Ron would be going to fetch Hermione from the toilet? I ask this because he comments that for all he knew Harry might have seen Quirrell coming to look at what was guarding the stone (p. 210, referring to p. 99). All in all, to me at least, this whole sequence doesn't make sense. If Quirrell brought the troll in to get past Fluffy, why go to the Great Hall and announce that it was there at all? With the feast taking place, no one would have heard the Troll and Fluffy fighting it out so far away. Any comments or explanations to help me reckon this out? MarEphraim From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 11 12:51:59 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants ) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 12:51:59 -0000 Subject: Perfidious!Lupin(WAS: Against Evil!Lupin responses (long)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49629 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "susannahlm " wrote: > Marina wrote: > > >Lupin's actions are really not so different from Harry's in CoS. > >Harry doesn't tell Dumbledore about hearing the basilisk's voice in > >the walls. He knew perfectly well it was important information, but > >he didn't tell because he was afraid Dumbledore would think he was > >crazy. If he had told, Dumbledore and Snape might've figured out > >early on that there was a basilisk involved. It's sheer luck that > >no one died as a result of Harry's silence. > > Um. . . No, look, I'm sorry, but I *really* have to disagree here. > First of all, Harry did not "know perfectly well it was important > information." He didn't have a clue *what* it was. Sure, it might > have been "important information," and from an objective point of > view, it pretty obviously was. But there was still that slight > uncertainty there for Harry; so his rationalization for not telling > Dumbledore could be something like: "I don't want him to know-- *and* > it might not be pertinent, *and* I might simply be losing my mind." There's a deadly monster loose in the school and you keep heering a voice saying "Kill, kill, kill." Every time you hear the voice, someone is found petrified shortly afterwards. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that there's almost certainly a connection, and that identifying the source of the voice might prevent further attacks. And Harry did figure it out; even if he had doubts, he knew he should've told. After Colin was petrified and Harry was taken to Dumbledore's office, Dumbledore asked him straight out, is there something you want to tell me? And Harry thought about the voice and then lied through his teeth. Yeah, I can sympathize with his reasons for doing it. I can sympathize with Lupin's reasons, too, but it doesn't make either of them right. > The second point is this: Harry was a twelve-year-old boy. Lupin was > a grown man, in a position of responsibility. That's a much stronger point, and I agree with it. Lupin's culpability is more severe than Harry's, for precisely that reason. But I never said the two situations were identical in all respects. I'm only saying that Lupin's actions and motives were similar to Harry's (they both had important information that they knew they should reveal, but kept quiet due to personal issues) than to genuinely treacherous people like Pettigrew or Karkaroff or Lucius Malfoy (who act from calculated malice). Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 11 13:47:17 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak ) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 13:47:17 -0000 Subject: Question about Snape and Quirrell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49630 All references by MarEphraim and myself are to the UK paperback edition of PS/SS. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marephraim " wrote: > Forgive if I've missed it in the archives (usually do), but several > questions occurred to me concerning PS/SS. At the Halloween Ball, > Quirrell lets in a Mountain Troll, races to the Great Hall and > pretends to pass out from fear. Everyone panics, Dumbledore sends > the students to their towers and the teachers are supposed to follow > him to the dungeon, where the fainted Quirrell has indicated the > troll to be. Snape is suspicious and sneaks away. > > Now this is what I don't quite find logical. Quirrell later tells > Harry that after the troll incident Snape never again trusted him. > Further, he says that snape was 'always suspicious' of him. (p. > 210 UK paperback, throughout) > > I ask myself, Why would Snape be suspicious of him at all before > this incident? Or was he suspicious of Quirrell from the time of > the great feast when Harry's scar hurt him for the first time? (p. > 94)(The movie would 'clarify' this by having Snape glance > suspiciously at Quirrell when the scar incident happens but Canon > makes no such reference.) No, it doesn't. However, it does have Harry making visible signs of pain, such as 'Harry clapped a hand to his head'[p.94]. Since Snape knows *he* wasn't the person who did this, he might start wondering why the boy was in pain. Since Snape was looking at Harry at the time, i.e. in the direction of the students, he would probably have seen that none of the students could have aimed a curse or jinx at Harry. That leaves one of the people on the High Table as the likely cause. Snape would know that while Quirrel himself couldn't have been casting a curse/jinx at the time, Harry was looking at Snape and Quirrel (because Snape and Harry's eyes met). Quirrel has just come back from dangerous, dark infested areas. That would put him at the top of the 'may have been got at' list, at least in Snape's suspicious mind. > Why would Snape break (unnoticed?) from the group of teachers > going to the dungeons to look for the troll and go straight to the > 3rd floor corridor? If you are expecting an attack on the Stone, you would expect either a) a major frontal assault with great force or b) a sneak attack, possibly with a planned distraction to divert the defenders attention away from the Stone. A troll in Hogwarts is a major distraction. It's not a huge leap of the imagination to work out it may be aimed at leaving a clear route to the Stone. We don't actually know that Snape leaving for the Stone was unnoticed by *all* the teachers. By Book 4 Snape is working very closely indeed with Dumbledore and McGonagall (in rescuing Harry from Fake!Moody). It's possible (though uncertain) that he may have been *assigned* to do a quick 'fade from the scene and head for the 3rd floor' in the event of odd happenings; Dumbledore and McGonagall being the ones who deal with the known danger. > Did he find Quirrell with Fluffy or did he > get there first? If the former, why didn't he go to Dumbledore > straight away? Possibly he did go to Dumbledore. But Quirrel's story would undoubtedly be that he woke up on the floor and realised that the troll might have been a trick to get at the Stone, so he rushed straight there to protect it... > If the latter, how did he meet up with Quirrell -- and McGonagall > in toilet after Ron and Harry defeated the troll? (p. 127-131) > Snape and Quirrel, as you point out, are with McGonagall, not Dumbledore later on. Is this because Dumbledore is now standing watch on the 3rd floor? And has decided to make sure that Quirrel is accompanied by the two people who (we find out in Book 4) he trusts most in an emergency (Snape and McGonagall). > Further, why didn't anyone tend to the poor fainted Quirrell in > the Great Hall (which would have prevented him going after the > stone)? Did the students just clobber him as they stampeded to > their dormitories? I like the thought [grin]. But sadly, Quirrel was probably being tended by Poppy Pomfrey, or the House Elves, and managed to shake them off by 'recovering' and weakly insisting that it was his duty as DADA teacher to help in finding the troll... > > Quirrell indicates his sorrow that the troll didn't beat Harry to > death and that Snape only received a wound. Does this mean that > the troll was also supposed to kill Harry? If so, how could > Quirrell (or the troll) know that Harry and Ron would be going to > fetch Hermione from the toilet? I ask this because he comments > that for all he knew Harry might have seen Quirrell coming to look > at what was guarding the stone (p. 210, referring to p. 99). > I think Quirrel's referring to things he didn't plan, but would have liked to happen. He would have loved it if Fluffy had bitten Snape's leg (or head) right off [grin]. The troll was planned as a distraction. However, the kids have been a pain and it was annoying that the useless bloomin' troll couldn't even manage to kill the little brats when it was stuck in a toilet with them. In hindsight it would have solved a lot of problems. Further, if the kids were in the toilet, instead of in their dormitories where they *should* have been, what else might they have seen? It is also possible that the troll was under orders to kill anyone it found. It attacks Hermione. But it's not likely it was under orders to kill Harry specifically, otherwise it would have chosen to batter the toilet door down to get at Harry, rather than head straight for Hermione [p.129](who at this point in the story is not yet Harry's friend). > All in all, to me at least, this whole sequence doesn't make > sense. If Quirrell brought the troll in to get past Fluffy, why go > to the Great Hall and announce that it was there at all? With the > feast taking place, no one would have heard the Troll and Fluffy > fighting it out so far away. In a 'Fluffy versus troll' contest, my bets are firmly on Fluffy. I think the troll was brought in to make sure all the other teachers were chasing it. This would give Quirrel some quiet, undisturbed time to work out how to get past a three headed giant Rottweiler equivalent (best of luck mate!). Quirrel doesn't say he was coming to 'get' the Stone; he says 'look at what was guarding the Stone' [p.210]. At this point, he may not even have known Fluffy was the first obstacle. > > Any comments or explanations to help me reckon this out? > MarEphraim The sequence does make sense, but there's an awful lot going on 'offstage', as it were. And we still don't know all the answers. Was Snape working on his own at this point, or was he reporting to Dumbledore as he is seen doing in Goblet of Fire? Was he protecting the Stone as a 'lone ranger' or as part of Dumbledore's team? Will Book Five *ever* reach the publishers? For some answers, queue up for the next exciting installment... (But expect it to raise even more questions [grin]) Pip!Squeak From kristen at sanderson-web.com Sat Jan 11 13:57:02 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (gkjpo ) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 13:57:02 -0000 Subject: Voldemort: "Peter, You are the weakest link. Good Bye" In-Reply-To: <000b01c2b957$3ef78f60$d1aa42cf@home> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49631 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "BoBaFeTT" wrote: > Voldemort shows no mercy to anyone for any reason > He does everything on a whim > > Now peter goes where he is best protected > > Shunned by James and pals he went to Volde > Volde died he remains in hiding as a rat in a MoM family > Discovered there he runs to find and and bring back Volde (but he owes harry) > > So now what will happen > Will he worry that Volde will find out about his debt? > if so will he turn on Volde and help clear sirus's name and give all his info to Dumbledore and crew > Id say it was a safe bet > I would say that it is not quite as easy as that (I'm sure you didn't mean to imply that it was). When Sirius confronts Peter in GoF, he talks about Peter's propensity to hang around stronger wizards who would take care of him. At an early age, it was the Marauders that did that for him and then he turned to LV. Even though we can see now that he was completely grossed out by bringing back LV and he wasn't treated well in the process, I don't think that it would be as easy for him to go back to Dumbledore. In my mind, he doesn't have the courage to face Dumbledore with his past transgressions and clear Sirius's name. He may end up doing that despite his own intentions though. We haven't yet seen the fulfillment of his life-debt to Harry. Kristen From gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 11 14:44:06 2003 From: gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com (gingersnape1966 ) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 14:44:06 -0000 Subject: Death in Book 5 - My guess In-Reply-To: <81.2588d992.2b50cf81@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49632 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, > In a message dated 10/01/2003 20:31:10 Eastern Standard Time, > stormlass at y... writes: > > > > Actually, Rowling did mention in some interview > > that Harry may have a new pet soon. I have > > personally wondered if Hedwig is an animagus. Is > > that too far fetched? Hagrid picked her. To which Snuffles replied (in part): > BUT! I would think that if Hedwig were an animagus, Crookshanks would have at > some point tried to let everyone know. After all, our big flat faced ginger > friend is very good at knowing when something isn't what it appears to be. me: Quite true. Sirius said in ch. 19 of PoA that Crookshanks had recognized both him and Peter as animagi, but he (Crookshanks) kept trying to attack Peter, but helped Sirius (although it took a while to gain Crookshanks' trust). Personally, I am with those who think another animagus would be overkill, and of course our Hermione did look up all the registered animagi for the last century. She would have certainly noticed Hedwig. Which means that Hegwig is: 1) at least 120 years old and was registered last century (I have wondered the same about Dumbledore as he is 150 and was certainly capable over 100 years ago), whom Crookshanks has no reason to mistrust, 2) an unregistered anamagus, perhaps an Unspeakable who is excepted from registery for security reasons, or 3) not an animagus at all. As far as Harry's new pet-I vote for Snuffles Just a thought about Hagrid picking Hedwig: After I saw the movie, I had the same notions in my head, but after rereading PS/SS, I found that Hagrid only paid for her. He and Harry were both there for the picking out. He did nudge Harry towards getting an owl, though. Hmmmm.... Ginger (whose fur is quite a different colour than Crookshanks') From tcyhunt at earthlink.net Sat Jan 11 14:23:39 2003 From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (tcyhunt ) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 14:23:39 -0000 Subject: Impact of Voldemort on Hogwarts (was Impact of WW2 on Hogwarts) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49633 I enjoy reading your thoughts - but doubt seriously that many of mine are worth posting - so I keep them to myself. Occasionally a question nags at me that I haven't seen addressed and I have to ask for opinions.....here's one: If quidditch season was cancelled for the Triwizard Tournament - what kind of impact will the 2nd rise of Voldemort have on the coming school year? If Dumbledore and the 'old gang' are doing their thing (as well as HHR), will there be much at all to the regular daily schedule at Hogwarts? And along the same lines...what was daily school life like during the first rise of Voldemort? Or was it virtually unchanged as Hogwarts was probably the only safe place? Any theories? Tcy From sevothtarte at gmx.net Sat Jan 11 13:55:52 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 14:55:52 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lucius & Voldie'sWorld (was: Longbottoms) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1Y4ZQM4Y1ZEC3WUSVRC0KF9665ZXVSZY.3e202268@tk> No: HPFGUIDX 49634 bboy_mn: > But what world will they inherit? A world in ruins, in chaos; economy > and infrastructure destroyed. The world a field of ashes, which would > make Voldemort King of Ashes. I can't remember a canon statement saying LV wants to destroy the world. He wants to destroy the existing order, but only to construct a new one - his own. He isn't evil just for the sake of it, he has goals. Also, look at how he treats the DEs - he's kind of nice to them. He forgives them for abandoning him, only asking for "thirteen years' repayment". After all we'd had been told about him before the end of GoF, one could have expected him to slay the "traitors" outright. LV doesn't rule by power and fear alone, he isn't insame. He rewards those who are faithful to him, like the Lestranges. Crouch Jr. perceives him as a father figure, which would be impossible if Voldy was only cruel. He's not looking for a world of ashes, but for HIS world. Torsten From sevothtarte at gmx.net Sat Jan 11 13:48:10 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 14:48:10 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Dumbledore Detached? In-Reply-To: <20030110210107.53549.qmail@web40506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49635 Kathryn: > Think about the speech Dumbledore gave at the end of > year feast in GoF. About how LV murdered Cedric. While I agree that Dumbledore being really good is beyond doubt, I think his speech to the students can be interpreted negatively. He says "remember what happened to a boy who was good, and kind, and brave, because he strayed across the path of Lord Voldemort." When I first read this, it sounded to me like "Kids, if you try to be good, and kind, and brave, you will die, so better be not." Torsten From pinkfoxranger at yahoo.com Sat Jan 11 14:54:19 2003 From: pinkfoxranger at yahoo.com (pinkfoxranger ) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 14:54:19 -0000 Subject: Harry a seer? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49636 Everyone is talking here about clairvoyance and seeing. But couldn't it be possible that Harry and Voldemort have a kind of telepathic connection. I mean, Harry feels whe Voldemort is close or having very murderous thoughts. And he sees events around Voldemort in his dreams. I don't know if this connection works onesided and that Voldemort also can sense when Harry is close or something like that. It explains why he only sees only things related to Voldemort. And Dumbledore said something once about a link between Harry and Voldemort trough Harry's scar. "Pinkfoxranger" From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sat Jan 11 16:03:58 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 08:03:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Dumbledore Detached? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030111160358.94736.qmail@web40514.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49637 Kathryn: > Think about the speech Dumbledore gave at the end of > year feast in GoF. About how LV murdered Cedric. Torsten: While I agree that Dumbledore being really good is beyond doubt, I think his speech to the students can be interpreted negatively. He says "remember what happened to a boy who was good, and kind, and brave, because he strayed across the path of Lord Voldemort." When I first read this, it sounded to me like "Kids, if you try to be good, and kind, and brave, you will die, so better be not." Me: That's *such* a twisted way of interpreting Dumbledore's words! He was pointing out to the students how terrible Lord Voldemort was (I'm sure you knew that ). Of course, one can turn any phrase inside out... Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kristen at sanderson-web.com Sat Jan 11 16:06:06 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (gkjpo ) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 16:06:06 -0000 Subject: Impact of Voldemort on Hogwarts (was Impact of WW2 on Hogwarts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49638 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tcyhunt " wrote: > If quidditch season was cancelled for the Triwizard Tournament - what > kind of impact will the 2nd rise of Voldemort have on the coming > school year? If Dumbledore and the 'old gang' are doing their thing > (as well as HHR), will there be much at all to the regular daily > schedule at Hogwarts? > > And along the same lines...what was daily school life like during the > first rise of Voldemort? Or was it virtually unchanged as Hogwarts > was probably the only safe place? > > Any theories? > > Tcy Well, we know from JKR quotes (see the Harry Potter Lexicon) that there will be a new sorting hat song this year, a new Quiddich captain, and a new DADA teacher. I would say that Dumbledore would see the wisdom in keeping things as normal as possible - and that means that the school year will proceed as normally as possible. We don't know if LV's activities will be going on at Hogwarts or in the background at this point. I can't wait to see the book synopsis (and the book of course!). As for school time during LV's rise, it's not really mentioned in canon. Yet, I would think that if there was a large departure from normal life, we would have heard about it. My guess is that in the normal case, LV would not be going after children as most of them pose no threat to him, and Hogwarts is where Dumbledore is so that kept him away also. Kristen From wynnde1 at aol.com Sat Jan 11 19:40:33 2003 From: wynnde1 at aol.com (wynnde1 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 14:40:33 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hogwarts in Scotland - Curious Steve Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49639 bboy (Steve) wrote: "I'm curious, do you think the train from Kings Cross to Hogwarts goes through Glasgow or Edinburgh. I alway thought Glasgow because after studying maps of Scotland I decided that Hogwarts was in Northwestern Scotland. But since it goes near Peebles which is near Edinburgh, it would appear that I might be wrong. Although, I have great resistance to admitting that I might be wrong." Now me: Well, you might not have to admit being wrong about *both* parts of your theory, although I'm pretty sure the Hogwarts Express goes through Edinburgh. As Eloise pointed out, the Kings Cross trains go through Edinburgh. The Glasgow trains go to Euston. That's more of a west coast route heading south (through Carlisle, I think); the Edinburgh-London trains go south along the east coast (through Newcastle). However, if you're traveling north into Scotland beyond Glasgow or Edinburgh, most of the trains will take a more easterly route, anyway. If you're interested, take a look at the link below for the Scotrail train routes: http://www.scotrail.co.uk/rtmap1.htm So, Steve, you could still be right about Hogwarts being in the northwest of Scotland, and the train would still most likely take the easterly route (through Edinburgh). Going through Glasgow only makes sense if Hogwarts is in the mid-north of Scotland. (Does this make any sense? If not, just look at the map). And, although Glasgow is in the "west" and Edinburgh in the "east," the two cities are really very close together in distance. I don't know the mileage, but it's only about an hour by car to get from Edinburgh to Glasgow. Since that bit of Scotland the train goes through on its way north is actually pretty narrow, it doesn't really matter which way you would come up from the south - you'd end up in nearly the same place either way. And since the Hogwarts Express leaves from Kings Cross, IMO, it travels north via Edinburgh. That is assuming that the train uses the same tracks as its Muggle counterparts . . . Which brings me to the thing which puzzles me about the train's route - that it passes through (or near) Peebles. The Muggle train route doesn't go anywhere near Peebles. I don't think there is *any* train which goes to Peebles, not even a local line, as the town doesn't appear to have an operational train station. The Kings Cross/Edinburgh (and beyond) goes through York, Newcastle, up the east coast through Berwick-upon-Tweed, and then around past Dunbar into Edinburgh. If you look at a map of Great Britain, you'll see this doesn't take the train anywhere near Peebles. Well, within about 30 miles (very approximate measurement off the top of my head), but that's not near at all if you assume that Ron flew the car directly along the train route. Come to think of it, the usual Kings Cross/Scotland route doesn't go through Norfolk, either. (Norfolk being one of the other locations of Muggle sightings mentioned in CoS, Chapter 5). So, perhaps the Hogwarts Express doesn't use the same tracks as Muggle trains, although, if that's the case, then why does it leave from Kings Cross? Or perhaps the Muggle eyewitness from Peebles was not actually at home when he spotted the flying car - maybe he was shopping in Edinburgh? Although even this theory is a bit shaky, as we do know that Mrs. Bayliss in Norfolk was hanging out her washing, so it certainly appears as though *she* was at home. More mysteries to solve! :-) Wendy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cindysphynx at comcast.net Sat Jan 11 19:55:23 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C. ) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 19:55:23 -0000 Subject: TBAY/SHIP: Romance on the Big Bang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49640 Cindy awoke with a start in her cabin, jolted from a deep sleep by the raised voices echoing down the hall. Shaking her head in irritation, she brushed the lint off her uniform, banged open the door to the hall and strode briskly toward the new Shipping wing on the Big Bang Destroyer. As she turned the corner, she saw Gail and Eileen elbowing each other aside for the opportunity to be the first to present Derannimer with a Bangy shipping theory. "Stand aside, Sailors," Cindy commanded. "Derannimer, what's going on in here? Have you lost control of these shipping theorists already?" "Captain, I'm so glad to see you!" Derannimer exclaimed, taking Cindy by the hand and dragging her into a magnificent circular ballroom. "Look, I'm off to a great start here, don't you think?" Cindy took in the candy-cane striped wallpaper, pink shag carpeting and shimmering strobe lights, fighting a sudden wave of nausea. "Uh . . . . I love what you've done with the place," she muttered. "Derannimer, Derannimer!" Gail broke in breathlessly, "I think I have something for this fabulous new Shipping wing!" "Is it a FILK?" Deranimmer asked hesitantly, glancing nervously at Cindy. "I don't know how the Captain would feel about . . . " "No, no, no FILKing, I swear," Gail replied. "It's proof positive that Shipping can Bang. There *might* be BANG potential with a SHIP, methinks. Especially if paired with something else. I'm imagining something along the lines of a Harry/Hermione SHIP with Hermione getting killed in a rather nasty way in front of Harry. See, they are completely and madly in love and then after you think that the two are going to live happily ever after, OUCH! One of them is killed...maybe if we're lucky, right in front of the other's eyes. A messy smear that Filch will have to clean up. Would that count, Captain?" "Well, the messy smear part is pretty good," Cindy allowed reluctantly. "But I think that theory seriously misapprehends the role and power of love in canon." Derannimer gaped at her. "You . . . you're going to lecture us all on *love?*" "I most certainly am." Cindy pulled up a lavender ottoman and perched on the edge of it, motioning Gail and Derannimer onto a pale pink loveseat. Eileen stretched out on a pearl white Laz-E-Boy recliner as Derannimer beckoned for a round of drinks. "See, ya gotta understand love," Cindy began. "There's eros, which is sexual love. There's philos, which is friendship. And there's agape, love of God. Then there's storge, which is parental love --" "Hold up," Derannimer broke in. "You don't know anything about Ancient Greece. Where did you get all of that?" "Oh, I'm hardly an expert, myself," Cindy said easily. "But I read Amy Z on OT-Chatter Message 13212, and she squared me away pretty good." The cabin boy approached bearing a tray laden with four clear drinks with a red substance swirling around the bottom of the glass. "Derannimer, what on earth are you serving here in the Shipping wing?" Cindy asked, eyeing her drink suspiciously. "Shirley Temples, Captain," Derannimer answered brightly. "It's the perfect touch, don't you think?" "Uh . . . " Cindy said, surreptitiously resting her drink on a nearby table. "Like I was saying, I submit that the idea of eros as potentially Bangy is non-canonical, and the most Bangy type of love in canon is storge." "What?" Derannimer said. "That's ridiculous!" cried Gail. "No, it isn't," Cindy said. "Let's look at the instances in canon in which a witch or wizard knowingly and directly sacrifices himself or herself to save another wizard's life. One example is when Lily faces Voldemort and shields Harry. She didn't have to do that. She could have stood aside and surrendered Harry, thereby perhaps saving her own life. But she didn't, did she? Saving Harry was the only thing she was thinking about." Cindy reached into her uniform pocket and pulled out a dog-eared copy of PoA, "The Patronus," and began to read in a hushed voice: ************ "Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry!" "Stand aside, you silly girl . . . stand aside, now . . . . " "Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead ?" ************* Cindy looked up from the worn pages. "That's parental love, and it is the foundation of one of the most Bangy moments in canon." "Yes, but what about James?" Derannimer asked quietly. "James made a sacrifice to save Lily, so that's eros, isn't it?" "No, James wasn't taking on Voldemort to save Lily," Cindy replied. "James says, 'Lily, take Harry and go! It's him! Go! Run! I'll hold him off -?' He doesn't say he's trying to save Lily. He's going to sacrifice himself to save *Harry,* to give Lily time to save Harry. That's not romantic love, it's parental love again. "Not only that," Cindy went on, "the other instance where a witch sacrificed herself was when Mrs. Crouch took Barty Jr.'s place in Azkaban. 'My mother saved me.' Parental love again. "In fact, the text of GoF suggests that eros doesn't motivate major decisions in the wizarding world at all. Barty Jr. says that Crouch Sr. loved Mrs. Crouch very much: 'He loved her as he had never loved me.' Yet what sort of sacrifice did Crouch Sr. ever make for his wife?" Cindy paused. "Nothing. Zip. Nada. Oh, eros exists in the wizarding world, but it doesn't really count for much, does it?" "But . . . but JKR says there will be more romance in future books. She said it in some interview," said Eileen. "Oh, who *cares* what the author says?" Cindy shot back. "We only care about what the author *writes.* I mean, you start paying attention to what the author says when they stick a microphone in her face on the 'Today Show' and before you know it, you're hip-deep in -?" She waved her hand impatiently. "-- some fallacy or other. "And don't take my word for it. I'm sure a certain Master Theorist who frequents the Bay would back me up on this. The author gets one chance to say her piece -? in the work of fiction itself. And she'd better get it right, because nothing she says later makes any difference in how we should read the text." "You're talking about Elkins, aren't you?" said Eileen reverently. "That's 'The Elkins,' and yes, I am." "I knew it!" Eileen exclaimed. "If you're right that parental love is more powerful in the wizarding world than romantic love, well . . . that sinks LOLLIPOPS straight to the bottom of the Bay." "But what about humor?" boomed a voice. "Is that you, Dicentra?" asked Eileen. "Yes," called Dicentra. "I think it's pretty clear that JKR doesn't mix her laughs with her Bangs. So far, canon hasn't presented us with anything that is both funny *and* life-changing. None of the plot twists have been effected with a light-hearted touch. Humor and Bang haven't mixed yet, so I'd be surprised if it did in the future." "And if humor and Bangs don't mix," Cindy agreed, "then romantic humor doesn't create a Bang. Just a chuckle. And it won't motivate major character actions and plot twists in future books. Eros doesn't Bang. Storge does." Eileen nodded quickly. "JKR's shipping so far has been *very* funny. Teenage love may not be serious, but it's hilarious to see caricature in people like Ron, Hermione, Viktor, and Harry." "Right. When JKR does humor, she doesn't do it for a Bang. No, she does it for entertainment value, for a distraction, for fun. Has there ever been a humorous moment in canon that turned out to be pivotal to the plot?" Cindy asked. There was an awkward silence. "No, the best humor in canon is so distant from the major plot elements that it is almost superfluous. The Yule Ball and romantic subplot had nothing to do with the plot to restore Voldemort. The Twins antics like Ton Tongue Toffee aren't central to the plot, either. I think canon suggests that *if* there's romance in future books, it will be for humor value -? superfluous, a distraction, a side-show -? and not at all connected to important plot developments. And above all, romance won't ever motivate canon characters to make a major sacrifice they wouldn't otherwise make." "Maybe you have a point," said Eileen. "We want Bangs that involve bloody ambushes, not Ron discovering that Hermione's cheating on with Harry." "You know what this means, don't you?" Cindy said soberly. "If romance doesn't motivate major character actions, then we have more than the demise of LOLLIPOPS. We have the *Death of Shipping* as we know it." Cindy picked up her Shirley Temple, fished out the cherry at the bottom, pinched it between two fingers and bit it cleanly in two. "Then again, maybe I don't know anything about love." ******************* Cindy ******************* Hypothetic Alley: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/hypotheticalley.html Inish Alley: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database? method=reportRows&tbl=13 From amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jan 11 19:33:42 2003 From: amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk (amy_marblefeet ) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 19:33:42 -0000 Subject: TBAY - Banging About In SHIPs In-Reply-To: <20030111065747.25617.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49641 Amy looked around nervously. She was standing on the beach just behind a group of very important looking members of Theory Bay, and one of them had a paddle. She wanted to join in but, goodness Captain Cindy looked quite angry about some theorists trying to get SHIPING to bang. "Ships don't bang," said Cindy. "Ships are soppy. They take away from the bangs. I want 38 bangs in OotP, and shipping just means time diverted from bangs, time spent on mushy, sappy teenage romance." "Er excuse me," Amy piped up from behind the group on the beach. "Excuse me. I agree that shipping between the trio and most other teenage ships in the series are a bit of a damp squib when it comes to bang potential but is there any reason that the ownly shipping going on up there should be R/Hr and H/Hr?" "Yes," cried Cindy, "Neville and Hermione." The others looked on blankly. Oh dear, thought Amy, I'm not explaining myself very well. "No," she replyed to Cindy. "I was talking about another ship. One that happens to be floating on the bay at this moment, a rather large and impressive ship. The (possible) relationship between Severus and Lily. Surely if that is true it bangs. At least a little bit. "Not to mention the whole backstory that has been created for a character that is mentioned once from the bottem of a pensieve. If some or any bizare form of the love triangle featuring Florence and/or Severus, Sirius and Lily were true, surely that would bang as well." "But thats all in the past though," one replyed. "Yes," agreed Amy, "but when has that ever bothered Snape." Amy From bebche2 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 11 17:44:48 2003 From: bebche2 at yahoo.com (Peter Shea) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 09:44:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Yes, but how do *we* make the mundane into the magical (or everyday alchemy)? In-Reply-To: <42.33724550.2b511ae1@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030111174448.20740.qmail@web20309.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49642 srsiriusblack at aol.com wrote: >IBut it is little things within the books that we carry off >with ourselves. And, there is so much wisdom within the >books... some of which we may already know, some of which we >have learnt from them, and some of which we may have been >reminded of in the journeys. In his review of GoF, Stephen King wrote "The fantasy writer's job is to conduct the willing reader from mundanity to magic." Obviously, JKR's phenomenal success is the result of her ability to do this. I'd be curious to know how this process is continued by the adult readers. To put it another way: we have all been uplifted and inspired by the HP fictions; hence our participation in this list (and events like Nimbus 2003). Aside from pushing the books into the hands of friends and acquaintances, I'd like to know how people on our list work at weaving the mundane into magic in their lives. Peter the Couch Elf --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 11 16:13:10 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 08:13:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Dumbledore Detached? In-Reply-To: <20030111160358.94736.qmail@web40514.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030111161310.95755.qmail@web40514.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49643 --- Maria Kirilenko wrote: > > Kathryn: > > Think about the speech Dumbledore gave at the end > of > > year feast in GoF. About how LV murdered Cedric. > > Torsten: > > While I agree that Dumbledore being really good is > beyond doubt, I think his speech to the students can > be interpreted negatively. He says > "remember what happened to a boy who was good, and > kind, and brave, because he strayed across the path > of Lord Voldemort." When I first read > this, it sounded to me like "Kids, if you try to be > good, and kind, and brave, you will die, so better > be not." > > > Me: > > That's *such* a twisted way of interpreting > Dumbledore's words! He was pointing out to the > students how terrible Lord Voldemort was (I'm sure > you knew that ). Of course, one can turn any > phrase inside out... > > Maria Kathryn again: Seriously, Dumbledore said nothing like "Kids, if you try to be good, and kind, and brave, you will die, so better be not." I agree with Maria, he was saying "Hey, LV is really bad because Cedric never did anything wrong, he was a completely innocent and confused bystander and LV killed him for no good reason." He made that speech to the kids, IMO, so they would fear LV and not think that he only harms people who openly oppose him, because that's definitely not the case. He was trying to make them realize that LV is a danger to everyone. ~Kathryn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sat Jan 11 21:09:38 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 16:09:38 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Dumbledore Detached? Message-ID: <169.190cc9fe.2b51e212@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49644 In a message dated 1/11/03 3:17:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, katydid3500 at yahoo.com writes: > Kathryn again: Seriously, Dumbledore said nothing like > "Kids, if you try to be good, and kind, and brave, you > will die, so better be not." I agree with Maria, he > was saying "Hey, LV is really bad because Cedric never > did anything wrong, he was a completely innocent and > confused bystander and LV killed him for no good > reason." He made that speech to the kids, IMO, so they > would fear LV and not think that he only harms people > who openly oppose him, because that's definitely not > the case. He was trying to make them realize that LV > is a danger to everyone. > > ~Kathryn But that might be how some people interpret it. Just because we're mature enough to understand that that is what he meant, doesn't mean that all of Harry's peers will. Some of them, after all, are only 11. The Slytherins will try to convince people that that is what Dumbldore meant. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 11 22:30:04 2003 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82 ) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 22:30:04 -0000 Subject: Perfidious!Lupin(WAS: Against Evil!Lupin responses (long)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49645 Marina wrote: >Lupin's actions are really not so different from Harry's in CoS. >Harry doesn't tell Dumbledore about hearing the basilisk's voice > in the walls. susannahlm wrote: > Um. . . No, look, I'm sorry, but I *really* have to disagree here. > First of all, Harry did not "know perfectly well it was important > information." He didn't have a clue *what* it was. Sure, it might > have been "important information," and from an objective point of > view, it pretty obviously was. marinafrants wrote: > There's a deadly monster loose in the school and you keep heering a > voice saying "Kill, kill, kill." It doesn't take a > genius to figure out that there's almost certainly a connection, >and that identifying the source of the voice might prevent further > attacks. Me: Although I believe there are some similarities between Harry's behaviour in COS and Lupin's in POA. I believe that the Marauders map is a better example of this. After Sirius has got passed the Fat Lady and security is being stepped up (which was more for Harry's sake than anyone else's) Harry still doesn't show the map to anyone even though it shows secret entrances into the castle that no one else knows about. Why does he do this? Mainly because he doesn't want to get Fred and George into trouble - but also because that would mean he couldn't go to Hogsmead again. Is this any different from what Lupin was doing when he with held the animagis forms that Sirius could take from Dumbledore? Why does he do this for two reasons one he doesn't want to get James or Peter into trouble - OK I know they were dead (supposedly in Peters case) but even still he didn't want to tarnish there memory. Secondly because he felt it would effect Dumbledore's trust in him. In both examples both Lupin act in the way they do for both selfish reasons (Hogsmead, Dumbledore's trust) and to protect others (Fred & George, James & Peter) and in both cases if they had come forward it could have lead to Sirius being captured more quickly or at least aided in the safety of the castle and those in it. Now before anyone jumps on the "but Lupin didn't show/tell Dumbledore about the map either" bandwagon I am well aware of that and believe that similar reasons as above can be used as to why Lupin didn't tell Dumbledore also I believe that Lupin had been keeping an eye out for Black more often than before Buckbeaks trial, using the map. So I also believe he would have felt that as long as he kept an eye on the secret passageways himself then he could stop Sirius from entering through them himself and thus no one else need know. So basically I believe he acted more responsibly with the map and used it to monitor for Sirius himself rather than to let the passageways go totally unguarded as Harry was. Michelle who feels that Lupin Is Not Evil (but is biased because he's one of her favourite characters) From StarHermione86 at cs.com Sat Jan 11 22:40:12 2003 From: StarHermione86 at cs.com (StarHermione86 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 17:40:12 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry a Seer? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49646 In a message dated 1/9/03 3:50:43 PM Pacific Standard Time, maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com writes: > 3. His "gift" (or curse ) doesn't cover anything except Voldemort. > > His gift also "see's" the past and something that is not remotely connected to Voldemort: "He had a very strange dream. He was walking through a forest, his firebolt over his shoulder, following something silvery-white. It was winding its way through the trees ahead, and he could only catch glimpses of it between the leaves. Anxious to catch up with it, he sped up, but as he moved faster, so did his quarry. Harry broke into a run, and ahead he heard hooves gathering speed. Now he was running flat out, and ahead he could hear galloping. Then he turned a corner into a clearing and-- " PoA chapter 13, Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw Does this not sound like Harry is having a dream about Prongs? You will have to remember that at this point in the book Harry has no idea what shape his patronus is, and does not know his father was an animagus. Also his "fake" prediction to Trelawney about Buckbeak's fate did come true. Buckbeak flew away like Harry predicted. On a side note, I would have went to Trelawney afterward and made her give me a hundred on my exam. Of course, that's just me. :-) Sheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sat Jan 11 23:34:47 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 17:34:47 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] NEW DADA Teacher References: <4f.298d09c9.2b50d201@aol.com> Message-ID: <3E20AA17.7ADC6F86@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49647 srsiriusblack at aol.com wrote: > > I knew I had read it somewhere.... but with a computer problem this > week I > hadn't been able to get my web browsers to work properly.. now that I > have... > > JKR says in an interview to CBBC Newsround that there will be a new > Defence > Against the Dark Arts Teacher and it will be a woman. > > ( I am still standing by my certaintity that it will NOT be Fleur > Delcour... > urgh, how I loathe her) > > The interview can be seen at: > http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/uk/newsid_2269000/2269270.stm > > and it was given in Sept. 2002. > > I still think our new DADA professor will be a new character- i.e. Not > Mrs > Figg or Fleur "Look at my silvery hair and tell me you will give me > the > world" Delacour. > > It would be nice for her to be an adventurer with real life experience > in > fighting the dark arts under her belt. And, I still want her to be > Snape's > interest. It might soften him up a bit. Of course, for Snape > not to > despise her, she would have to know just as much about Curses and Evil > as he > does, but let's hope she has a gentler demeanour. > > -Snuffles, still praying Snape finds love. :) > > I for one feel the new DADA teacher will be a new character we have not seen yet. As for Fleur, I can't see her wanting to teach at Hoggwarts, since all she could do is complain about the place and go on about how her school was so much better.. Snape is twice Fleur's age and there's no way any publisher would allow that match to get through in canon. These books are marketed as children's books after all, which means you are not apt to see any openly gay characters, any matches where there is more then just a couple years difference in the ages or any relationships between humans and non-humanoids (giants are humanoid, a sea serpent, centaur or sphinx, while intelligent, are not due to not being built like a human.) I think that wild conjectures like Snape falling in love with a student half his age will fall prey to the editor's axe. I know that many books, go through 2, 3 or more rewrites, being sent back filled with comments by the editors, who make sure the book won't overly offend anyone. (The Eaton Collection at UC Riverside in CA has archives of some writers first, second, third, etc drafts, which can be educational for new writers to see where famous authors made 'mistakes' that the editor caught or the editor asked for parts to be changed or removed due to fear that people might get offended or that a section didn't fit somehow with the rest of the story. Jazmyn From SusanXG at hotmail.com Sat Jan 11 23:53:58 2003 From: SusanXG at hotmail.com (Susan XG) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 17:53:58 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Do Grown-Up HP Fans Favor PoA & GoF over PS/SS and CoS? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49648 >>>>I've always been curious about the differences between the younger HP >>>>fans and the adults. <<<< Excellent topic! I'll comment. I'm 22 and CoS is actually my favorite of the HP books. I just thought it was so clever (and I still do after reading it four times!). GoF is a close second, mostly because the kids are growing up and having to deal with more problems. It's pretty dark, but it's appropriate for the subject matter. PoA is actually my least favorite of the novels. I don't really know why. Intitially, I thought it was too dark, but after rereading it again, I discovered that I like it better than I did. However, it is still number 4 in my eyes. I don't dislike ANY of the novels. That's the challenge. They are each unique in their own way and are all excellent. It's really hard to pick favorites. Susan :o) _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From stormlass at yahoo.com Sun Jan 12 00:41:46 2003 From: stormlass at yahoo.com (snapesrighthand) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 16:41:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin niceness factor & Harry as human Sneakascope In-Reply-To: <11e.1c7ec0cd.2b51455d@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030112004146.2600.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49649 Hi, there. --- srsiriusblack at aol.com wrote: > Snape, by many accounts in these discussion, I feel is more treacherous and > evil than Lupin. Quirrel really WAS a threat to Harry. ( sorry, I know I > overreact, I do just love Lupin so much) But, Snape withholds valuable > information all year is PS to Dumbledore. If Snape had actually told > Dumbledore of Quirrel's activities Harry would not have faced Voldie. ( true > there would have been little point to the book, but you get my meaning) Alexandras response to srsiriusblack Dumbledore did know about Quirrel... paraphrase from Ps/SS "He went after him didn't he" to Hermione going for help and running into him. Then the kids discuss it and Ron says something about Dumbledore being off his rocker with a big smile on his face. Then one of the kids says something about Dumbledore wanting Harry to go through all of that. Dumbledore knew Harry was going to need this confrontation as Voldemort is weekened in this state. A little battle at a time. Each time it becomes more serious. I agree with you that Lupin is a "goodguy" and nothing and no one will change that. He is labeled a "badguy" by WS standards because he is a werewolf. He seems sincere in everything he says. I will never believe he is evil. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Jan 12 02:16:08 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 02:16:08 -0000 Subject: Harry's Tears In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49650 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grindieloe " wrote: > I hate to go back to this topic again... but I thought of a #4 to add > to the following list... :) > > #4. If I remember correctly, while Harry is taking anti-dementor > lessons from Lupin, he also sheds a few tears when he is saying how > his father was trying to give his mother and himself time to run for > it... Harry pretended to be doing up his shoe laces to hide his > emotions from Lupin. > > Sorry, just thought of that one today! > grindieloe > bboy_mn with a very short comment: I haven't been following this thread to closely, but I want to make a point that I'm sure is probably so obvious, I shouldn't really bother BUT... There is a big difference in terms of the emotional release and catharsis between getting a little misty eyed and out and out crying. I don't think getting a little misty eyed qualifies as crying, in the sense that it is being discussed. This is a general comment to the thread and not directed at anyone in particular. bboy_mn From gandharvika at hotmail.com Sun Jan 12 02:26:30 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 02:26:30 +0000 Subject: (FILK) The Ballad of Harry Potter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49651 The Ballad Of Harry Potter (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _The Ballad Of John and Yoko_ by the Beatles) Dedicated to Jenny...rock on, babe! A Midi is Here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle18.html Harry: My name it came out of the Goblet I swear that I did not put it in Moody he said, "Somebody wants this boy dead" You know I'm really starting to believe him This competition ain't easy You know it ain't hard to see It really does look like Somebody's trying to kill me The first task involved dangerous dragons The Golden Egg we all had to catch Had to act really quick I said, "Accio Broomstick" Then I flew just like in a Quidditch match This competition ain't easy You know it ain't hard to see It really does look like Somebody's trying to kill me The next task we had to go underwater Our friends as prisoners had to be freed I breathed like a fish This was accomplished Thanks to Dobby who brought me Gillyweed This competition ain't easy You know it ain't hard to see It really does look like Somebody's trying to kill me Ron would not talk to me for days and days Hermione said it was jealously After the first task Ron said with a gasp, "I reckon someone's tryin' to do you in!" - duh! The third task we had to overcome obstacles Running around inside a maze A Blast-ended Skrewt And a sphinx to boot My head it feels like it's in a daze This competition ain't easy You know it ain't hard to see It really does look like Somebody's trying to kill me The Goblet turned out to be a Portkey Voldemort he said, "Kill the spare!" With him as leader Of those Deatheaters I really had to get outta there This competition ain't easy But now I can plainly see Just who it is that's Been a-trying to kill me Just who it is that's Been a-trying to kill me -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Jan 12 02:37:24 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 02:37:24 -0000 Subject: Perfidious!Lupin(WAS: Against Evil!Lupin responses (long)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49652 Marina said:. >>Lupin's culpability is more severe than Harry's, for precisely that reason. But I never said the two situations were identical in all respects. I'm only saying that Lupin's actions and motives were similar to Harry's (they both had important information that they knew they should reveal, but kept quiet due to personal issues) than to genuinely treacherous people like Pettigrew or Karkaroff or Lucius Malfoy (who act from calculated malice).<< Perfidy: deliberate violation of trust, breach of faith (Random House) Base treachery (Shorter Oxford) If malice is necessary for perfidy, then I withdraw the term. But Lupin's confession is canon, and I stand by perfidy for the treachery he describes: "I sometimes felt guilty about betraying Dumbledore's trust, of course...he had admitted me to Hogwarts when no other headmaster would have done so, and he had no idea I was breaking the rules he had set down for my own and others' safety. He never knew I had led three fellow students into becoming Animagi illegally. But I always managed to forget my guilty feelings every time we sat down to plan our next month's adventure. And I haven't changed... Lupin's face had hardened and there was self-disgust in his voice. "All this year I have been battling with myself, wondering whether I should tell Dumbledore that Sirius was an Animagus. But I didn't do it. Why? Because I was too cowardly. It would have meant admitting that I'd betrayed his trust while I was at school, admitting that I'd led others along with me...and Dumbledore's trust has meant everything to me. He let me into Hogwarts as a boy, and he gave me a job when I have been shunned all my adult life, unable to find paid work because of what I am. And so I convinced myself that Sirius was getting into the school using dark arts he learned from Voldemort, that being an Animagus had nothing to do with it...so, in a way, Snape's been right about me all along." I think the closest parallel in Harry's experience is his theft of the Weasley car, when he realizes that because of him, Arthur Weasley could be in trouble. "Harry pushed his porridge away. His insides were burning with guilt. Mr. Weasley was facing an inquiry at work. after all Mr. and Mrs. Weasley had done for him over the summer." -- CoS ch. 6. Harry feels terrible. But Lupin says he always managed to forget his guilty feelings when it was time to plan the next adventure. That makes him very different from Harry Potter. Lupin's actions *were* calculated. They were not spur of the moment like Harry stealing the car. There is nothing in Lupin's confession about mixed motives. The way he tells it, his conscience and his duty were on one side and his cowardice and self-interest were on the other...and cowardice and self-interest won, not just once, not just when he was boy, but over and over and over again. Those whom he betrayed (his word) were a man who had done everything for him, and a boy who was the orphan son of his dearest friends. What would have happened to Dumbledore if one of Lupin's close calls had resulted in a biting or a death? Harry can be forgiven for not considering the consequences to Arthur when he was only twelve, but Lupin is in his thirties now, and, by his own admission, even as a teenager he knew better. He says himself that he hasn't changed. The way Lupin presents himself in his confession and the way that Harry thinks of him cannot be reconciled. Judging from the ESE poll, most people think that Harry is right and Lupin is just beating up on himself. People have come up with a whole lot of reasons that Lupin's conscience *might* have been weighing in on both sides of the issue. But these are conjecture. If Lupin did what he says he did for the reasons he said he did it, then perfidy is not too strong a word, IMO. By his own confession, Lupin overcame his guilty feelings.That distinquishes Lupin from the other wrongdoers in the books. He is the only one whom we know for sure has a functioning conscience and a normative value system, and who ignores them, not for fear of Voldemort, but because he wants to. That is absolutely essential for the moral meaning of the books, IMO. If every evil act is laid to sociopathic sensibilities like Riddle's or a diseased culture like that of Slytherin House (or the MoM under Crouch), or to coercion by force or fear, then there is no personal responsiblity for evil in the Potterverse. No, Lupin's choices were not easy--but isn't that where Dumbledore says the battle will be drawn? Maybe Lupin's confession will turn out to be a load of hooey. There is, as I have said, a lot of hooey associated with werewolves in the books. Lockhart's dubious homorphous charm, Riddle's reference to werewolf cubs and Snape's assertion that werewolves' minds work differently than other peoples' all stand contradicted by Fantastic Beasts. But I have a feeling Rowling is trying to tell us something, and it's not that everything about Lupin is what it appears to be. I could be wrong. Maybe it will turn out that Lupin was indeed concerned about his dead friends' honor, though as Deranimmer pointed out, letting the man who betrayed them get near their orphaned son seems an odd way to go about it. Maybe Lupin really did feel Sirius was innocent. Thing is, I can't understand why an innocent Lupin would then also need to convince himself that Sirius was using dark arts learned from Voldemort to enter the castle. Following the logic of that gives me a headache. Or maybe Lupin thought he could use the map to keep Harry safe, except that Lupin didn't even have the map when Sirius broke into the castle. Or maybe not. Pippin who still can't trust Lupin, not even as far as she can throw a hippogriff, but who appreciates everyone's contributions to the thread From jodel at aol.com Sun Jan 12 03:27:55 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 22:27:55 EST Subject: Did Peter realy kill those Muggles? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49653 << Pippin wondered: Unless Sirius has X-ray vision, he couldn't have *seen* the wand behind Peter's back, so this must be conjecture. Given that Peter is supposedly such a weak wizard, could he have had a co-conspirator who blew the street apart instead? >> Peter was already on the run, having inadvertently led Voldemort into a trap. First question; What DE would back him up to facilitate his escape? Second question; If hew has a trusted confederate who will back him up, why was he hiding out with the Weasleys for 12 years as a rat? And we don't know a number of things about Peter which could throw that dismissive evaluation as a "weak wizard" of by a fair amount. And just what are the things that we DO know? We know that at the age of 14-15, he needed all the help he could get to manage the animagus transformation. But he DID manage it. Does this sound like a weak wizard to you? Never mind that there were others who were "stronger". Does becoming an animagus by the age of 15 sound weak? We know that Rosemerta dismisses him as "that fat little boy who was always tagging along". Little fat boys generally seem to be easily dismissable by outside observers. They look so harmless. But are they really? Minerva tells us that he was never quite in Black and Potter's league. But then if there are no other consensuses to consider, *everyone* agrees that Black and Potter were "exceptinally bright" and "exceptionally talented". If Peter had been a couple of years older or younger and not had to deal with them in direct competition people might have made a very different evaluation of his abilities. Minerva also tells us that he was hopeless at dueling. Poor reaction time when confronted by the unexpected will do that. Hermione tends to freeze momentarily when confronted by the unexpected, too. No one has called her a "weak witch" so far. There is sufficient canon to suggest, if not to confirm that Wormtail was at the house in Godric's Hollow the night of Voldemort's defeat. Dumbledore has specifically told us that Harry aquired some of Voldemort's power when the curse rebounded and destroyed the Dark Lord. Was this only because he was the foscus of the rebounding curse? Or was it chiefly because he was the nearest living person in range? Was he the *only* living person in range? Not if Peter was also there. Could Peter have been carrying additional power that he had not had in school, by the time he staged his death and framed Sirius? Questions, questions. (Side note: I think that it was always intended that Sirius take the rap for the Potters' deaths. But the original plan was for him to be killed and Peter to be a hero, and go on spying.) -JOdel (who thinks that all of this emphasis on "Peter Pettigrew, magical weakling" is a lot of moonshine and misdirection.) From jodel at aol.com Sun Jan 12 03:28:00 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 22:28:00 EST Subject: The Potter's family friend Message-ID: <12f.2014c7bb.2b523ac0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49654 In rereading the Three Broomsticks passage of PoA in regards to a view of what other people thought of Peter Pettigrew, something struck me. Cornelius Fudge speaks with a remarkable degree of authority about James and Lily's private life and friendships. Things which do not make much sense comming from a casual observer. (How would *he* know *that*?) I think that unless Rowling is simply putting words into Fudge's mouth because someone needed to say it, and he happened to be there, (and the private lives of the poor, tragic, young Potters was tabloid news long enough for everyone to know these details -- which doesn't seem to be the case, since it is apparantly NOT widely known that Black was supposed to be their Secret Keeper) we may be missing a fairly important clue. And that is that Fudge was evidently a *lot* deeper into Dumbledore's organization in VoldWar I than we've been led to believe. And that the "suddenly looking at him as if he had not seen him before" comment about Dumbledore's response to Fudge in the Parting of the Ways chapter of GoF has a lot more context than a surface reading would give us. At the very least, Fudge *knows* who Dumbledore's "old crowd" is. This could get very ugly. -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Sun Jan 12 03:28:02 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 22:28:02 EST Subject: The torture of Bertha Jorkins Message-ID: <1bb.c36eb09.2b523ac2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49655 Ani brings up the point; >>Who tortured Bertha? According to Voldemort's account, Peter made him the fragil body _after_ Bertha was tortured. But if Voldemort was vapor, he couldn't have used any magical, or presumably physical means to extract information from Bertha. << People keep overlooking the gift that seems to be Tom Riddle's ace in the hole. He has the gift of being able to *possess* others. Whether this is some inborn talent which he inherited through his mother (likely, since the diary revenant shared it) or whether it is a side efect of his (nearly sucessful) attmpts at achieving physical imortality, it is a talent that he has demonstrated on each of his appearances. He did not need physical contact to torture Bertha Jorkins. We heard Quirrell describe that his Master often had to "punish" him. Voldemort was no more physical when he possessed Quirrel than when Pettigrew showed up in his lair with Bertha. Nor did he need conventional magical means. Pettigrew brought Bertha to him (probably under Imperio) and he went through her mind for anything of use. (Side question; was Pettigrew's meeting with Bertha as accidental as Voldemort appears to think it was? Scabbers was about during Year I. He *knows* what happened to Quirrell when he crossed Voldy's path. Did Peter hedge his bets by hanging about in the vicinity until he encountered a witch or wizard who he could take to Voldemort as a hostage?) Some confusion is produced by his statement that when he was through with Bertha her mind and body were broken beyond repair and he could not possess her, so he disposed of her. But if one stops to think about it, there isn't any means by which VaporMort could have dealt with the matter except by having possessed Bertha in the first place, sifted through her mind, broken the Memory charm which blocked off that part of her knowledge and, generally, taken her apart from the inside. He ultimately left her to die, as he had Quirrell. Wormtail no doubt disposed of the body. Or Nagini did. Pipin comments; >>Good catch! Voldemort says that Peter was "the able-bodied servant I needed." That could mean that he had another servant who wasn't able-bodied. Perhaps he had a servant who could use a wand, but due to his disability was unsuitable for possession or donation of flesh, and who would be unable to tend to uglybaby!Voldemort. A werewolf, perhaps?<< Nagini. Not much advantage in possessing a snake. Not much assistance from one in furthering Evil Plots either, When you stop and think of it, while Voldemort seems to make a great deal about how fortune favors Lord Voldemort, the person who really seems to have lucked out throughout this sequence is Pettigrew. For now. -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Sun Jan 12 03:27:56 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 22:27:56 EST Subject: Potter Geography Message-ID: <178.14f48a48.2b523abc@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49656 Sorry to be a wet blanket. But we've been led to take a lot for granted over the fact that the Potter's home was in a place that was known as "Godric's Hollow". Given that James and Lily were both apparantly ex-Gryffandors, and given that some Brits do name their houses, what is to keep Godric's Hollow from being just the name of the Potter's home which they had deliberately named in honor of the founder of their old school's "House"? Nothing, really. Nothing, that is, except for the reference to Godrick's Hollow having been the home of Bowman Wright, the metal charmer who invented the Golden Snitch. (In the 14th century.) So the name has been used before, whether this is the *same* Godrick's Hollow or not. Another note: Hogsmeade may be the only all-wizarding village in Great Britian *now*, but has anyone ever claimed that it always has been? It's been six centuries since Bowman Wright invented the Snitch. The Potters may have had more than one thing to commemorate in naming their house. _JOdel (just trying for a little balance here.) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Jan 12 04:00:52 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 04:00:52 -0000 Subject: Slightly OT: Where is Hogwarts? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49657 Sadly, I have more time than money, so with this great wealth of time, and the fact that I have no life, I have found out (or so I say) where Hogwarts is. (One of four places.) To see the satellite images of the FOUR possible locations, go to this link. (personal site, non-commerial) http://www.homestead.com/BlueMoonMarket/Files/Hogwarts/hogwarts1.htm [Alternative] http://BlueMoonMarket.homestead.com/Files/Hogwarts/hogwarts1.htm Hope that's not too far off topic. bboy_mn From dorigen at hotmail.com Sun Jan 12 04:27:32 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 04:27:32 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: (FILK) The Ballad of Harry Potter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49658 I think this is the best one yet. Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From bebche2 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 12 04:24:36 2003 From: bebche2 at yahoo.com (Peter Shea) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 20:24:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: If Muggles are unaware of Wizards, why do they agree to send their kids to Wizarding schools? Message-ID: <20030112042436.45413.qmail@web20306.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49659 My wife, a shrewd Bulgarian (and a supporter of the Vratsa Vultures Quidditch Team), looked up from reading GoF and posed the following questions: If muggles are protected from knowledge of the wizarding world, why do muggle parents (like those of Hermione Granger and Lily Evans Potter) appear to accept so easily the existence of magic? And, more incredibly, why do they agree to the education of their children in wizarding schools where the children are prepared to live in clandestine wizard communities rather than participate in the wider muggle world? I quote Aunt Petunia in PS/SS: "...for my mother and father,oh no, it was Lily this and Lily that, they were proud of having a witch in the family." Peter the Couch Elf From nana_hpfan at yahoo.com Sun Jan 12 04:04:27 2003 From: nana_hpfan at yahoo.com (nana_hpfan ) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 04:04:27 -0000 Subject: Do Grown-Up HP Fans Favor PoA & GoF over PS/SS and CoS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49660 Peter wrote: >>>>I've always been curious about the differences between the younger HP fans and the adults. <<<<< --I was just looking around the site to see if something new had come up in the Harry Potter world and..I just could not let this comment unsaid. I am a mother of three girls ages 27, 24 & 13. I have three grandchildren, ages 5, 3 and a half and a five months old; with a fourth grandchild on its way. It was my 5 yr old grandson who got me into this fit in which I, like many others are craving for: 1. news on any REVELANT clues for Order of the Phoenix 2. Interesting speculations on any HP site. 3. Counting the days that Chamber of Secret would be released in DVD/VHS so to sit and watch both movies, one after the other- So you can see that being 47 has not made me less interested in Harry Potter than those 25 yrs younger than me. My favorite book? Gee, I love Chamber of Secrets, but I love Prisoner of Azkaban; but Goblet of Fire, is as Ron would say "wicked"; but I cannot say I do not like the Sorcerer's Stone. They are all great. I may be a little "mental", but I have read Goblet of Fire five times from beginning to end. I mostly enjoy the last chapters, specificlly from the Third Task to the end. I love the golden web that formed as Harry and mean old Voldemort dueled. I love to read over and over where it states that Voldemort looked around him and Harry saw "FEAR" in his eyes. This has so much said between the lines; I feel in heaven when I read how Harry escaped right in front of Voldemort's nose, as he heard Voldemort's scream of fury (ja-ja-ja; Sucker!!!). I do hope the fifth book will live up to our expectations. Harry is growing up right before our eyes and year by year he is becoming more aware of the unrequested reposibilty to fight Lord Voldemort. I cannot fanthom what JK Rowling may have in store for us in books 6 and 7. Whatever it may be, we have a good two or three years of trying to sit tight and patiently for this wonderful product of her imagination. "...what's coming will come, an' we'll meet it when it does..." (Goblet of Fire; Ch 37 ; page 719. So let us Hope Ms Rowling has a nice , safe, charming and uneventful pregnacy, so that she can go on with her wonderful world of HARRY POTTER. --Nana_HPFan From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Jan 12 05:02:40 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 05:02:40 -0000 Subject: Lucius & Voldie'sWorld (was: Longbottoms) In-Reply-To: <1Y4ZQM4Y1ZEC3WUSVRC0KF9665ZXVSZY.3e202268@tk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49661 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Torsten wrote: > bboy_mn: > > The world a field of ashes, which would make Voldemort King > > of Ashes. -end this part- > Torsten replied > > I can't remember a canon statement saying LV wants to destroy the > world. -end this part- bboy_mn responds: The 'field of ashes' was a bit of dramatic license; a bit of figurative melodrama to make a point. No Voldemort's goal isn't to reduce the world to ashes, but look at his methods; pointless murder, and torture, killing for sport and entertainment, the quest for imortality. Do you really believe Voldemort is not going to leave a huge wake of senseless distruction in his path? Voldemort is a megalomaniac, he has a God complex, he wants to be Lord and Master of the Universe (OK, nore dramatic license, not the universe, but a substantial portion of the world) and that makes him nuttier than a fruitcake, barmy as a brew house, barking... howling... mad. The truth is a wizard as intelligent, as self-serving, as cunning, and as powerful as Voldemort is, could very easily become ruler (Minister) of the wizard world by legitimate means. He could probably be Minister of Magic right now (in the books), if he wasn't so hopelessly irrational and deluded. After Minster of Magic, as ambitions as he is, he could run one of the big international organizations like the Confederation of Wizards. If he wasn't such a nut, he could easily be the most power man in the wizard world right now. -bboy_mn -end this part- > Torsten continues: > Also, look at how he treats the DEs - he's kind of nice to them. > -end this part- bboy_mn wonders: Sarcasm??? Oh sure, he treats them nice. I'll give you wealth and power, all you have to so is spend the rest of your life groveling on the floor kissing my scaly bu... robe.. hem of my robe, let me torture you with an illegal curse, obey me or die, and let me kill you when I'm finally bored or feeling paranoid. Oh yeah, it a fun life being a Death Eater. Your statement HAD to be Sarcasm. -bboy_mn -end this part- > Torsten continues to continue: > Crouch Jr. perceives him as a father figure, which would be > impossible if Voldy was only cruel. He's not looking for a world > of ashes, but for HIS world. > > Torsten bboy_mn still wonders: Sarcasm again? Crouch Jr. is just as deranges as Voldie, maybe even more derange. It's one thing to be nuts, but it's something else altogether to be nuts enough to believe and follow another hopeless nut. Voldie is not LOOKING for a world of ashes, but that's what he's going to get. Because he sees only an event, an isolated slice of time in which he stands up high and the world bows at his feet, but he fails to he what it will take to get him there, and he fail to see what state the world will be in once he gets there, and he fail to see how difficult it is to rule a world in chaos, a world with a collasped economy, a destroyed infrastructure, a world in social upheaval. If he was sane, he would just get elected, and think of ways to make the world a richer place. What on earth made Germany or Japan think they could take over the world? It was because the had deluded themselves into believing that they were super-human and that the rest of the world was sub-human. They deluded themselves into believing that they owned the world by right of superior beings (short version- god complex). In closing - Evil is the Architect of It's Own Doom. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. bboy_mn From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sun Jan 12 04:59:36 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 22:59:36 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] If Muggles are unaware of Wizards, why do they agree to send their kids to Wizarding schools? References: <20030112042436.45413.qmail@web20306.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3E20F638.ADC7B79@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49662 Peter Shea wrote: > > My wife, a shrewd Bulgarian (and a supporter of the Vratsa Vultures > Quidditch Team), looked up from reading GoF and posed the following > questions: > > If muggles are protected from knowledge of the wizarding world, why do > muggle parents (like those of Hermione Granger and Lily Evans Potter) > appear to accept so easily the existence of magic? And, more > incredibly, why do they agree to the education of their children in > wizarding schools where the children are prepared to live in > clandestine wizard communities rather than participate in the wider > muggle world? I quote Aunt Petunia in PS/SS: > > "...for my mother and father,oh no, it was Lily this and Lily that, > they were proud of having a witch in the family." > > Peter the Couch Elf Maybe Lily's parents were SF fans, Tolkien fans, AD&D players or even Ren Fair groupies? Yeah, normal, mundane muggles would be shaken up a bit and not too accepting, but not all muggles are 'mundanes'. There are any number of people who would be delighted to find out that real magic exists and their child is 'special' enough to be born a witch or wizard. There's also the possibility that these muggle parents KNEW they had a parent or grandparent who was a wizard or witch, thus it was not a complete surprise. I suspect Lily's parents were in fact squibs and had magical parents or at least one magical parent between them so they knew and were happy that Lily was born a witch. Jazmyn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Jan 12 05:31:59 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 05:31:59 -0000 Subject: Yes, but how do *we* make the mundane into the magical (or everyday alchemy) In-Reply-To: <20030111174448.20740.qmail@web20309.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49663 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Peter Shea wrote: > Peter said: > > In his review of GoF, Stephen King wrote "The fantasy writer's job is to conduct the willing reader from mundanity to magic." Obviously, JKR's phenomenal success is the result of her ability to do this. > > ..edited... > > Peter the Couch Elf bboy_mn: Sorry to ignore the question you asked (I edited it out). I just want to make some general comments about JKR's writing. The thing that amazes me and in a sense makes it so magical, is how incredably compact and efficient her writing is. She somehow managers to say SO MUCH with so few words. I've seen many sentances that are only two or three words long. In five or ten pages she can condense massive amounts of story. She really doesn't describe things in great detail. That flys in the face of all our English teachers, who drilled 'don't tell us, show us' into our head. We aren't suppose to talk about things, we are suppose to describe them. We are suppore ramble on for pages, creating a vivid mental picture for the reader by describing every visual, audial, and tactile characteristic as the story unfolds. Yet, JKR accomplishes pages in paragraphs, and fequently condense pages into a few short sentences. For the most part, Harry total psycholagical state, his deepest emotions, his greatest fears are covered in one quick reference to his stomach; which is beautiful. Without endless scene descriptions, in the most compact of form, she has created the most vivid and life-like world. I see that castle, the ground, the stone floor, the common room, the four posters with red hangings, they are as real as the world around me. I know exactly what Dobby looks like right down to the last detail. By the way, the movie got him completely wrong. Trust me, the real Dobby has a butt. That's the magic of JKR, she didn't tell me, she didn't show me, she just gave me enough to ingite my imagination, and that exploded into the most vivid and real of worlds. I would say that is truly magical writing. just a thought. bboy_mn From urbana at charter.net Sun Jan 12 05:46:06 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne ) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 05:46:06 -0000 Subject: If Muggles are unaware of Wizards, why do they agree to send their kids to Wizarding schools? In-Reply-To: <3E20F638.ADC7B79@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49664 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: >> There's also the possibility that these muggle parents KNEW they had a > parent or grandparent who was a wizard or witch, thus it was not a > complete surprise. I suspect Lily's parents were in fact squibs and had > magical parents or at least one magical parent between them so they knew > and were happy that Lily was born a witch. > Which could account, at least in part, for Petunia Evans Dursley's bitterness about how (in her view) their parents seemed to favor Lily over her. Perhaps there was a lot of sibling rivalry between Petunia and Lily, though I think it's more likely that Petunia was jealous of the positive attention that Lily received for being "the real witch in the family". We really don't know much about Lily the person yet, other than that she sacrificed her life to save Harry's, but Lily has seemed to me like one of those "golden girls", the girl who's smart, pretty, talented, and who all the boys are interested in- -and she ends up marrying her soul mate, who happens to be handsome, popular, talented and rich...while Petunia ends up marrying... Vernon (UGGGGHHHHHHH)!! Geez, that would be enough to make anyone bitter... ;) Anne U (or maybe Petunia is just bitter about being a squib) From jayemelle at earthlink.net Sun Jan 12 09:35:45 2003 From: jayemelle at earthlink.net (Jeana ) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 09:35:45 -0000 Subject: If Muggles are unaware of Wizards, why do they agree to send their kids to Wizarding schools? In-Reply-To: <20030112042436.45413.qmail@web20306.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49665 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Peter Shea wrote: > If muggles are protected from knowledge of the wizarding world, why do muggle parents (like those of Hermione Granger and Lily Evans Potter) appear to accept so easily the existence of magic? And, more incredibly, why do they agree to the education of their children in wizarding schools where the children are prepared to live in clandestine wizard communities rather than participate in the wider muggle world? > Peter the Couch Elf I'd guess there are probably plenty of Muggle parents who, when their children's school letters arrive, figure the whole thing is a joke and toss them (the letters, not the children) out the window. In that case, we'd never hear about the "lost students" whose magical careers were over before they began. (This assumes Hogwarts' single- minded pursuit of Harry in PS/SS was a one-time extra effort to reach someone who was at once helpless to fend for himself and so obviously integral in the WW.) Perhaps the ones who allow their kids to enroll are merely the most open-minded of the nonmagical bunch--and maybe they welcome the idea of their children being part of a more cloistered world, although clearly it's not exactly a safe alternative to the Muggle world. Besides, who's to say all magical children, even the ones from wizarding families, do get magical education? We know about the existence of Squibs, and apparently there's a possiblity of a child being "not magic enough" (cf. Neville's family's fears about him) to be accepted into Hogwarts. And, as addressed (I think) somewhere in the FAQs, there seems to be some sort of class distinction in terms of who's offered the education in the first place (Stan Shunpike and Madam Rosmerta don't seem to be alumni, although they're clearly magical). However, I believe that among children who are sufficiently magical and socioeconomically qualified, there have to be some who are accepted to wizarding school but, for some reason or another, don't or can't attend (I'm thinking of economic hardships, family difficulties, illness, etc.). If an accepted child doesn't show up, I can't see the school having any authority to influence the family's decision, or to alter the circumstances that led to that decision--whether those circumstances are nonbelieving Muggle parents or abject WW poverty. So IMO, it's quite possible that there are many people from Muggle families out in the non-WW who do, in fact, have some measure of magical ability that was just never allowed to develop. I imagine these "lost students" living their whole lives in the kind of pre- 1991 cluelessness Harry himself exhibited--occasionally seeming to "make" strange things happen, but never really understanding how or why. Of course, in this scenario, uneducated magical students from wizarding families wouldn't be quite the same--they'd still have and be able to use their powers, but they wouldn't have a formal wizarding school education to back them up (again, characters like Stan and Rosmerta). By the way, I'm new here and from what I can tell, this is a great group. Congratulations to all who have worked to make it what it is! Tess From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sun Jan 12 10:48:28 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 21:48:28 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] If Muggles are unaware of Wizards, why do they agree to send their kids to Wizarding schools? In-Reply-To: <20030112042436.45413.qmail@web20306.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3E21E2AC.5271.29BFA@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 49666 On 11 Jan 2003 at 20:24, Peter Shea wrote: > My wife, a shrewd Bulgarian (and a supporter of the Vratsa Vultures Quidditch Team), > looked up from reading GoF and posed the following questions: > > If muggles are protected from knowledge of the wizarding world, why do muggle > parents (like those of Hermione Granger and Lily Evans Potter) appear to accept so > easily the existence of magic? And, more incredibly, why do they agree to the > education of their children in wizarding schools where the children are prepared to live > in clandestine wizard communities rather than participate in the wider muggle world? I > quote Aunt Petunia in PS/SS: > > "...for my mother and father,oh no, it was Lily this and Lily that, they were proud of > having a witch in the family." Another perspective from those I've seen (which I consider more likely, but as we're all speculating). I do voluntary work in a situation that is somewhat analagous. I work with profoundly gifted children. This isn't the normal group typically described as gifted by schools - who tend to be around 1 in 25 kids, somewhere around that area. These are kids who have IQs at the 1 in 10,000 level or higher - even up to 1 in a million. The situation isn't a perfect match - wizarding skill is an entirely different ballgame - but it means I sometimes get to see parents who are slugged with a piece of information that may have come totally unexpectedly and may require them to consider completely restructuring the plans they had to help their kid. Based on those experiences, I don't think we can assume that even if Aunt Petunia is accurately describing what she saw, that Harry's grandparents were genuinely happy to see Lily head off to Hogwarts, that they were genuinely proud. Parents sometimes conceal their feelings about things like this. Consider the following scenario. You suddenly discover your 11 year old daughter is a witch. You had no inkling of this. The idea seems absurd on the face of it - but there's proof. Frankly you are *totally* freaked out by this, you really wish it wasn't true. Maybe it even disturbs you. *But* you're a loving parent who genuinely wants what is best for your daughter. You know this isn't something she chose. It's something she *is*. It's part of who she is, and it's not going to go away. What do you do? Do you let your child know you think she's a freak? Do you let your child's siblings know you feel that way? Or do you - as a loving and supportive parent screw down those feelings and do your utmost to ensure your child *never* knows the way you feel? Or at least, doesn't know it now - doesn't have to deal with it as a child. Maybe later you can talk to them as an adult, and then come clean about your feelings. But as a child - no. You have a duty as a parent to ensure your child never knows. And so you tell them you are proud of them. You convince them of this. You convince their siblings of this. You do what your child needs, and you be what your child needs you to be. I've seen it happen with the parents of PG kids - and I can imagine it happening with Muggle parents of wizards and witches. As for why they agree to send their kids to Hogwarts - same thing applies. They may not like it - the idea may scare them, horrify them, worry them. In all honesty, I'd be rather shocked if a parent in that situation *didn't* have those feelings. But if it's where the child *needs* to be - then there are plenty of parents who will screw down their misgivings and their feelings, and never let the child know about them - because they care about their kids enough to give them what they *need* - even if it's not what the parents *want*. If parents are decent people who take their role seriously - and hopefully most are - they don't have to *want* the child to go to a school they need - they just need to understand that it is what the child needs. The child's needs will come before the parent's desires. But do you let the child know that? Maybe - depends on the kid. But certainly not always. Were Lily's parents happy to see their daughter at Hogwarts? Were they proud to have a witch in the family? Maybe - but we can't know that. Are Hermione's parents happy to see their child at Hogwarts? Or are they just supporting her in what they know she needs? No way of telling, really. I wonder though... what would Hogwarts do in a case where a child wants to attend - but their Muggle parents don't want to allow it. I really wonder, with what we have seen of the Wizarding world, if they don't just take the child anyway. The average Wizard seems to have a fairly low opinion - patronising - of Muggles - I could see them as assuming they know best. In PS/SS (page 47, British hardcover), Hagrid certainly seems to suggest the choice is Harry's and nobody elses. "'If he wants ter go, a great Muggle like you won't stop him.' Harry's situation is unusual - but even so, the Dursley's seem to be his legal guardians in both the Muggle world, and in the Wizarding one - and Hagrid doesn't seem to think their consent is needed. Would Wizards regard Muggles as being equipped to make such a decision? Or would it just be presented as a fait accompli? Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From Zarleycat at aol.com Sun Jan 12 11:58:02 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001 ) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 11:58:02 -0000 Subject: Did Peter realy kill those Muggles? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49667 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jodel at a... wrote: > And we don't know a number of things about Peter which could throw that > dismissive evaluation as a "weak wizard" of by a fair amount. And just what > are the things that we DO know? > > We know that at the age of 14-15, he needed all the help he could get to > manage the animagus transformation. But he DID manage it. Does this sound > like a weak wizard to you? Never mind that there were others who were > "stronger". Does becoming an animagus by the age of 15 sound weak? > > We know that Rosemerta dismisses him as "that fat little boy who was always > tagging along". Little fat boys generally seem to be easily dismissable by > outside observers. They look so harmless. But are they really? > > Minerva tells us that he was never quite in Black and Potter's league. But > then if there are no other consensuses to consider, *everyone* agrees that > Black and Potter were "exceptinally bright" and "exceptionally talented". If > Peter had been a couple of years older or younger and not had to deal with > them in direct competition people might have made a very different evaluation > of his abilities. I think there is a lot of truth to this. One can be quite skilled at something, yet be overlooked when one is compared to people who are truly gifted at the same thing. In the case of Peter, he may very well not been in James' and Sirius' league. They may have been top honor students while Peter was a good, solid B level. That doesn't make him stupid by any means. And, I think this helped blind Sirius and James to Peter's abilities. In comparison to themselves, Peter was not as strong or as magical or however you want to describe it. He needed their help in completing the Animagus transformation. Their view of him as not as adept as themselves contriuted to the Fidelius Charm fiasco. Sirius himself says that the reason he felt it would work was that Voldemort would never think that someone as weak as Peter would be used. It was a fatal blindness. I've always felt that Peter was one of those people that perhaps doesn't push themselves to excel. Plus, in school, he had several very bright friends who could be counted on to help him. Maybe he coasted whenever he could, did what came easily to him, and then relied on his friends to help him with the really hard stuff. That way he got what he needed, but didn't have to work exceedingly hard to do it, because James and Sirius, and maybe Remus, too, were there to provide the answers. Peter may even have cultivated, whether deliberately or subconsciously, a persona of someone who always needed help from his friends. That set the stage for their interactions as adults, with dire consequences. Marianne From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Sun Jan 12 13:30:48 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants ) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 13:30:48 -0000 Subject: Perfidious!Lupin(WAS: Against Evil!Lupin responses (long)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49668 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999 " wrote: > Perfidy: deliberate violation of trust, breach of faith (Random > House) Base treachery (Shorter Oxford) > > If malice is necessary for perfidy, then I withdraw the term. The dictionary definition may not reqire malice, but I don't think I've ever before encountered the term in a context that didn't imply it. Dictionary definitions sometime miss the connotations attached to words in actual usage. > I think the closest parallel in Harry's experience is his theft of > the Weasley car, when he realizes that because of him, Arthur > Weasley could be in trouble. > > "Harry pushed his porridge away. His insides were burning with > guilt. Mr. Weasley was facing an inquiry at work. after all Mr. and > Mrs. Weasley had done for him over the summer." -- CoS ch. 6. I don't think that's a parallel at all. Harry is feeling bad because he was caught and then presented with tangible negative consequences of what he's done. If he and Ron had gotten away clean with that Ford Anglia stunt, if no one found out and no one got in trouble, do you think he'd be sitting around angsting about what might've been? > Harry feels terrible. But Lupin says he always managed to forget > his guilty feelings when it was time to plan the next adventure. > That makes him very different from Harry Potter. Lupin's actions > *were* calculated. They were not spur of the moment like Harry > stealing the car. That's exactly right, Lupin's actions *weren't* like Harry stealing the car. They were like Harry keeping quiet about the basilisk voice. Harry had plenty of opportunities to tell, he knew he should tell, he knew he was lying to Dumbledore about something important, and he did it anyway. > > There is nothing in Lupin's confession about mixed motives. > The way he tells it, his conscience and his duty were on one > side and his cowardice and self-interest were on the other...and > cowardice and self-interest won, not just once, not just when he > was boy, but over and over and over again. Those whom he > betrayed (his word) were a man who had done everything for > him, and a boy who was the orphan son of his dearest friends. The fact that Lupin tells it like this, with no attempt to soften the description or put himself in a more favorable light, is what affirms his trustworthiness in my eyes. I think that speech in the Shrieking Shack is the first time Lupin has fully admitted the extent of his wrongdoing, either to himself or to anyone else, and that's why he was so insistent on going through with the whole lengthy speech despite Sirius' repeated injunctions to shut up and get on with the killing. If Lupin had stood there and tried once again to offer excuses or rationalizations for what he'd done, I would totally agree with you thaat he's not to be trusted. But he doesn't; when he mentions the rationalizations for what he did, he talks of them in the past tense and freely admits that they were wrong. His attitude contrasts favorably with all the other adults on the scene: Sirius, who's still stubbornly ensisting that Snape deserved the Prank; Snape, who goes ballistic at any suggestion that he might ever have been wrong about anything; and Peter, who can't open his mouth without spouting a dozen conflicting excuses for things much more terrible than anything Lupin ever did. Now, we all know Peter is scum, but I don't see how it's possible to condemn Lupin as untrustworthy without also condemning Sirius and Snape. Of course it's possible you mistrust all three of them, in which case your position is consistent. I trust all three of them, which means my position is also consistent, and which also explains why none of my hedgehogs ever fly. :-) > The way Lupin presents himself in his confession and the way > that Harry thinks of him cannot be reconciled. How exactly does Harry think of him, aside from "best DADA teacher we've ever had," which is true? We know he trusts Sirius pretty much unconditionally (which I actually think is a mistake; I trust Sirius, but not unconditionally), and that he mistrusts Snape. But we don't know what his attitude towards Lupin is after the end of PoA. I doubt he sees him as "perfidious," but he may believe, like I do, that Lupin has done wrong in the past, but has learned from his mistakes and is unlikely to do the same wrong in the future. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jan 12 15:52:00 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) ) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 15:52:00 -0000 Subject: TwinsWeakLink/Crouch/Meg/Hypocrisy/KeirseySort/NamedDEs/SnapeCronies/FireBrig Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49669 Jo Serenadust wrote: << I'm having trouble remembering where JKR tried to make us think that the Twins might turn anyone in for the reward money. >> GoF, chapter "The Dream", page 493 of first UK hardcover ... when the Trio encounter the Twins in the Owlery and overhear something about "blackmail": "No," said Harry. "If it was something that serious, they'd tell someone. They'd tell Dumbledore." Ron, however, was looking uncomfortable.... "Well ... I dunno if they would. They're ... They're obsessed with making money lately. I noticed it when I was hanging around with them. ... It's that joke-shop idea they've got ... they need gold to get it started." Jim Ferer wrote: << Do you remember how Crouch jumped to conclusions that three teenagers (H/R/H)had cast the Dark Mark at the Quidditch World Cup? >> But, as Elkins has eloquently pointed out, at the very moment that he was accusing the three teenagers, he KNEW that Barty Jr had gotten loose and had means, motive, and opportunity -- he was urgently trying to distract anyone else from finding out. Meg wrote: << (who has her one year list anniversary this week and who just started her second semester of medical school, both really cool items of note.) >> Congratulations! Eileen wrote: << I find hypocricy a lot more attractive, a lot more human than honest evil >> My late mother used to quote (I don't know from whom): "Hypocrisy is the tribute which vice pays to virtue." Scott wrote: << I would argue that keirsey temperment has little to do with Sorting >> I absolutely agree! Around 15 years ago, my friends and I were all discussing some popular book about Jungian types (I have the feeling that it may have been "Please Understand Me") and there were two people at my job who both were absolutely exact matches of the book's description of ENFP - people who lived and breathed human interaction like fish breathe water, people to whom "networking" was an instinct, not a strategy -- and Roz was *totally* a Gryffindor -- fearless, she'd read the riot act to even the highest executive who made a racist or sexist remark... and even tho' I liked Terry well enough, he was surely a Slytherin, with his little plans of how he could use some of the people he knew to annoy some other people he didn't like, and make a few bucks as well... Jazmyn wrote: << after naming only the most prominent DEs, his 'officers', the rest being too low ranked to confront? Could have been others there who were just his 'canon fodder', unworthy of notice and not mentioned by name? >> "He walked on. Some of the Death Eaters he passed in silence, but he paused before others and spoke to them." I strongly doubt that the reason he passed them in silence was their low rank: after all, he spoke to Crabbe Senior and Goyle Senior. We have Fudge's word, in hospital wing, "You are merely repeating the names of those who were aquitted of being Death Eaters thirteen years ago!" So it seems Voldemort was speaking the names only of the ones who had already been outed, and silence to shield the ones who were still secret. I don't like MAGIC DISHWASHER but I must admit that that agrees with their idea that Voldemort wasn't *really* trying to kill Harry in that scene, but rather to use him to pass information to Dumbledore: true information that Voldemort had a new body and false information that will screw up Dumbledore's anti-Voldemort strategies. Tzvi of Brooklyn wrote: << I like Snape. I feel his pain. I doubt he was some snob like Malfoy was, he never had cronies either (or not that we know of). >> I like Snape and think he's a snob only about intelligence, not pedigree, but he *did* have cronies at Hogwarts. "...he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters." Wilkes and Rosier who were killed by Aurors, the Lestranges who are in Azkaban, and Avery who got Crucio'ed in the graveyard scene. Jim Ferer wrote: << if the house at Godric's Hollow was destroyed, why didn't it attract the attention of the Muggle fire brigades? >> It did. First chapter of Book 1, Dumbledore asks: "No problems, were there?" and Hagrid replies: "No, sir -- house was almost destroyed, but I got him out all right before the Muggles started swarmin' around. He fell asleep as we was flyin' over Bristol." That would have been the Fire Brigade "swarmin' around". From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jan 12 16:25:04 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) ) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 16:25:04 -0000 Subject: Hogsmeade/Animagi/Werewolves/sidesaddle/ Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49670 Jazmyn wrote: << Also, who said that its the only wizard village? >> Hermione. "Do you know much about Hogsmeade?" asked Hermione keenly. "I've read it's the only entirely non-Muggle settlement in Britain --" "Yeah, I think it is," said Ron in an offhand sort of way. Dmitri Douglas wrote: << Once they finally master the spell, do they get to pick what animal they become? >> JKR has confirmed in interviews that the Animagus doesn't get to choose his/her animal form, but instead the animal form is a reflection of his/her personality. http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/October_2000_Live_Chat_Americ a_Online.htm Q: Does the animal one turns into as an Animagi reflect your personality? JKR: Very well deduced, Narri! I personally would like to think that I would transform into an otter, which is my favorite animal. Imagine how horrible it would be if I turned out to be a cockroach! http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm Q: If you were Animagus, what kind of animal would you be? A: I'd like to be an otter -- that's my favourite animal. It would be depressing if I turned out to be a slug or something. People often try to argue that Animagi *must* be able to choose their forms, because the Marauders needed to be two animals big enough to control a werewolf and one animal small enough to press the Willow's button,and Skeeter needed to be a very small flying object, but I don't buy that. The Marauders did *not* need to be two animals big enough to control a werewolf for their *original* plan, which was simply to hang out with Remus in the Shrieking Shack -- they had to be non-humans because werewolves are filled with frantic blood-lust for humans, but they could have been kittens and bunnyrabbits as long as Remus remembered they were his friends and didn't mistake them for food. And if they didn't need to have one small animal, as they *could* have used a long stick to press the button, as Pomfrey did. Steve bboy_mn explained in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/49504 why Skeeter probably didn't CHOOSE to be a bug. I want to know, what happens if a person who has become an Animagus goes over the whole training again, from scratch, will heesh get another animal form? Can a person who is a werewolf become an Animagus? with an animal form other than wolf? Can a werewolf who is an Animagus with an animal form other than wolf avoid turning into a wolf monster at Full Moon by turning into hiser animal before the moment? Maria wrote: << what happens if a female werewolf becomes pregnant ... from a man or from a wolf? Maybe you can get werewolf cubs ... >> It's one of the many pieces of information that have annoying been left out of the Muggle edition of FABULOUS BEASTS, but I believe that a female werewolf who gets pregnant doesn't stay pregnant longer than a month, or *maybe* two months, because the transformation from human to wolf and from wolf to human is too stressful on the fetus. I have absolutely NO canon for the following, but I believe that one of the MANY ways in which being an Animagus is better than being a werewolf is that a female Animagus's fetus transforms safely along with her. Whether she bears a human or an animal baby depends on which it form she's in when she gives birth. So it would be wise to avoid transforming when one might go into labor any day now. Sasha the Slytherin/Gryffindor has lately had a sig shipping Minerva/Crookshanks. My problem with this is that I used to believe that Crookshanks was Minerva's *son* (I forget why I gave it up when JKR explained that Crookshanks's specialness is that he's part-Kneazle). I figured she spent her entire pregnancy in cat form to get it over with in 42 days instead of nine months, but didn't transform back to human in time. Melody wrote: << Are werewolves insomniacs one night out of the year? >> Huh? Do you mean the one (or whatever) night a month that they're in wolf form? << Does a witch ride a broom side saddle?" >> 1) If they did, wouldn't JKR have mentioned it when describing Angelina, Alicia, Katie, and Cho in their Quidditch matches? 2) in Muggle popular culture (e.g. Halloween decorations), witches ride broomsticks astride, 3) the reason Muggle ladies used to ride side-saddle is because they were wearing long dresses with skirts too narrow for them to spread their legs over an entire horse; this may not apply to broomsticks, which are much narrower than horses, and a any way it would not be a gender difference for the magic folk, as wizards and witches both wear robes, 4) speaking of gender differences, anatomically it would be more logical for WIZARDS to ride their brooms side-saddle. JOdel wrote: << I think that unless Rowling is simply putting words into Fudge's mouth because someone needed to say it, and he happened to be there, (and the private lives of the poor, tragic, young Potters was tabloid news long enough for everyone to know these details -- which doesn't seem to be the case, since it is apparantly NOT widely known that Black was supposed to be their Secret Keeper) >> Here's the canon: **************************** "You'd have thought Black and Potter were brothers!" chimed in Professor Flitwick. "Inseparable!" "Of course they were," said Fudge. "Potter trusted Black beyond all his other friends. Nothing changed when they left school. Black was best man when James married Lily. Then they named him godfather to Harry. Harry has no idea, of course. You can imagine how the idea would torment him." "Because Black turned out to be in league with You-Know-Who?" whispered Madam Rosmerta. "Worse even than that, m'dear...." Fudge dropped his voice and proceeded in a sort of low rumble. "Not many people are aware that the Potters knew You-Know-Who was after them. Dumbledore, who was of course working tirelessly against You-Know-Who, had a number of useful spies. One of them tipped him off, and he alerted James and Lily at once. He advised them to go into hiding. Well, of course, You-Know-Who wasn't an easy person to hide from. Dumbledore told them that their best chance was the Fidelius Charm." **************************** I've always figured that that was information that Fudge had gotten through his Ministry job. Either he read the paperwork on the case, or he was present when Dumbledore gave his testimony. In http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/49442 Elkins explains how Dumbledore may have given his testimony to the same kind of council to which Karkaroff ratted out his friends. Young Fudge could have been some kind of usher or note-taker serving the council if he was too lowly to be a member of the council. At least the USA PoA says 'evidence' rather than 'testimony': "I myself gave evidence to the Ministry that Sirius had been the Potters' Secret-Keeper." To me, this suggests one or two officials interviewed him without ceremony. Fudge could have been one of those officials. From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sun Jan 12 17:47:05 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 11:47:05 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: Hogsmeade/Animagi/Werewolves/sidesaddle/ References: Message-ID: <3E21AA19.555E957B@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49671 "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) " wrote: > > Jazmyn wrote: > > << Also, who said that its the only wizard village? >> > > Hermione. "Do you know much about Hogsmeade?" asked Hermione keenly. > "I've read it's the only entirely non-Muggle settlement in Britain > --" "Yeah, I think it is," said Ron in an offhand sort of way. > > Sounds to me like its the only village that has no muggles? Perhaps due to too many dangerous magical creatures living nearby that muggles have no good defense against? Or its the only 'pureblood' settlement. So in fact, there might be small mixed villages around the UK where there are muggles who are related to or accept the presence of, wizards and witches. Jazmyn From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sun Jan 12 18:14:25 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 10:14:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: If Muggles are unaware of Wizards, why do they agree to send their kids to Wizarding schools? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030112181425.23651.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49672 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Peter Shea wrote: If muggles are protected from knowledge of the wizarding world, why do muggle parents (like those of Hermione Granger and Lily Evans Potter) appear to accept so easily the existence of magic? And, more incredibly, why do they agree to the education of their children in wizarding schools where the children are prepared to live in clandestine wizard communities rather than participate in the wider muggle world? "Jeana " wrote: I'd guess there are probably plenty of Muggle parents who, when their children's school letters arrive, figure the whole thing is a joke and toss them (the letters, not the children) out the window. In that case, we'd never hear about the "lost students" whose magical careers were over before they began. (This assumes Hogwarts' single-minded pursuit of Harry in PS/SS was a one-time extra effort to reach someone who was at once helpless to fend for himself and so obviously integral in the WW.) Me: There's nothing to suggest that Harry's experience was one-time. Even though they assumed that he was in fact knowledgeable about the wizarding world (Hagrid expressed surprise that Harry wasn't completely clued-in) when it was clear that none of the letters had reached him, a further effort was made. Each letter may in fact be enchanted and extras may spontaneously be produced and try to get to the recipient until the potential student finally actually opens it and reads it for himself (without it being snatched away and/or disposed of--Harry did in fact open and start to read a letter, but this is what happened). Why should we think that some special enchantment was invented for when Harry received his letters, when it was not expected that there would be trouble? I'm guessing that most parents who toss the first letter in the trash, assuming that it's a prank, soon learn otherwise when more and letters begin to come to the house. Most people are probably not as anti-magic as Vernon and Petunia Dursley and do not take such extreme steps to avoid the letters. (And Dudley probably wouldn't be anti-magic at all were it not for his parents--but he'd also probably be trying to get Harry to break the law and perform magic all of the time just to benefit HIM.) "Jeana " wrote: Besides, who's to say all magical children, even the ones from wizarding families, do get magical education? We know about the existence of Squibs, and apparently there's a possiblity of a child being "not magic enough" (cf. Neville's family's fears about him) to be accepted into Hogwarts. And, as addressed (I think) somewhere in the FAQs, there seems to be some sort of class distinction in terms of who's offered the education in the first place (Stan Shunpike and Madam Rosmerta don't seem to be alumni, although they're clearly magical). Me: Upon what are you basing this? There's no reason to assume that Stan and Rosmerta didn't go to Hogwarts, based on the books. It's like the old joke: What do you call someone who graduated last from medical school? DOCTOR. Just because a witch or wizard may not be setting the world on fire (literally ) doesn't mean they didn't ATTEND the same school as all other witches and wizards in the British Isles. We don't know anything about their magical prowess, or academic performance, but not everyone can get twelve O.W.L.s, be named Head Boy and land a Ministry job out of school, like Percy. (Frankly, Bill's job with Gringotts doesn't sound much more glamorous than Stan's--he's not running the bank, after all--and Bill WAS Head Boy and had as many O.W.L.s as his younger brother.) Rosmerta owns her own business and seems to be quite prosperous. She's also seen hobnobbing with the Minister of Magic, no less, who strikes me as rather elitist and someone who would NOT consort with a Squib or someone who hadn't even received a partial Hogwarts education (he's also seen with Hagrid, who is still a wizard, regardless of his expulsion). Hagrid was accepted to Hogwarts; does he strike you as having come from a wealthy background? Stan is also gainfully employed, and I get the impression that magic is required to work on the Knight Bus (conjuring hot chocolate, among other things). Non-credentialed wizards, such as Hagrid, are not permitted to use magic. "Jeana " wrote: However, I believe that among children who are sufficiently magical and socioeconomically qualified, there have to be some who are accepted to wizarding school but, for some reason or another, don't or can't attend (I'm thinking of economic hardships, family difficulties, illness, etc.). If an accepted child doesn't show up, I can't see the school having any authority to influence the family's decision, or to alter the circumstances that led to that decision--whether those circumstances are nonbelieving Muggle parents or abject WW poverty. Me: This doesn't stand up under canon scrutiny, I'm afraid. As mentioned, there's nothing to imply that Hagrid came from anything but the barest sort of home with his dad, abandoned as they were by his mother. (And his poor dad had to feed a lad of Hagrid's size! Think of it!) Plus, we have orphaned Tom Riddle coming to Hogwarts during the earlier part of the twentieth century. It's possible that the folks running the orphanage knew about his being a wizard, as Muggle parents would, but it's also possible that all they knew was that he'd received a scholarship to go off to a boarding school, thanks to a legacy left him by his mother. Which may or may not be how he attended; there could be hardship scholarships available for orphans. (There's nothing to imply that Hagrid couldn't have gone on attending Hogwarts after his dad died--he stopped because he was expelled.) Someone else also said that they suspected that when Lily was accepted to Hogwarts, the Evanses knew there was magic in the family and were in fact Squibs. There is nothing to suggest that they weren't genuine Muggles. I believe that that, in fact, is supposed to be the irony in the triumph of Lily over Voldemort. As for acceptance by Muggle parents (the original question) I believe that it would be akin to winning the lottery for these parents, like receiving an unexpected windfall. They discover that their child is capable of doing things that seem to defy nature? Things that will make life far easier for their child than if they couldn't do it? Of course most parents would welcome this news with open arms. It's even possible that if Dudley had (god forbid!) turned out magical, the Dursleys would have changed their tune, after all--THEIR child is perfect. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Sun Jan 12 18:55:38 2003 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 18:55:38 -0000 Subject: Wizarding English: was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: If Muggles are unaware of Wizards, why do they agree to send their kids to Wizarding schools? References: <20030112181425.23651.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008f01c2ba6f$56514ca0$b79c7ad5@homeevisham> No: HPFGUIDX 49673 "Barb" wrote: > "Jeana " wrote: > > Besides, who's to say all magical children, even the ones from wizarding families, do get magical education? We know about the existence of Squibs, and apparently there's a possiblity of a child being "not magic enough" (cf. Neville's family's fears about him) to be accepted into Hogwarts. And, as addressed (I think) somewhere in > the FAQs, there seems to be some sort of class distinction in terms of who's offered the education in the first place (Stan Shunpike and Madam Rosmerta don't seem to be alumni, although they're clearly magical). > > > Barb wrote: > Upon what are you basing this? There's no reason to assume that Stan and Rosmerta didn't go to Hogwarts, based on the books. It's like the old joke: What do you call someone who graduated last from medical school? DOCTOR. It kills me every time this comes up: again and again people assume Stan and Rosmerta didn't, and blame Hogwarts for being elitist (though Jeana didn't) while the only basis for their assumption is the subconscious "No way someone with that accent is educated!". Anyway, about accents and the wizarding english in general: Isn't it strange that such an isolated community keeps in touch with developments in the language? I was under an impression that even Ron never met muggle-born children before starting Hogwargs, not to mention someone like Draco. Wizards isolated themselves from muggles sometime in the Middle Ages, and the most modern artefact they borrowed from them - train - is early 19th century so how do they keep up with the language? In the muggle world there are many examples of isolated communities where language was preserved as it has been at the time of the split from the cultural metropolis. Irene From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Jan 12 19:58:15 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 19:58:15 -0000 Subject: Hogsmeade/Animagi/Werewolves/sidesaddle/ In-Reply-To: <3E21AA19.555E957B@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49674 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > > > "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) " wrote: > > > > Jazmyn wrote: > > > > << Also, who said that its the only wizard village? >> > > > > Hermione. "Do you know much about Hogsmeade?" asked Hermione > > keenly. "I've read it's the only entirely non-Muggle settlement > > in Britain > > --" "Yeah, I think it is," said Ron in an offhand sort of way. > > > > > > Sounds to me like its the only village that has no muggles? > ...edited... > > Jazmyn bboy_mn: I'm pretty sure that Hogsmeade is 'all wizarding' rather than 'non-muggles'. It is a wizarding village that might possibly have a few muggle, rather than a mugggle village that might have a few wizards. (Non-conon reference - HP Lexicon) 'Hogsmeade is the only entirely wizarding village in Britain.' just a thought bboy_mn From sevothtarte at gmx.net Sun Jan 12 19:35:58 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 20:35:58 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: Animagi/Werewolves/sidesaddle/ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49675 Catlady: >People often try to argue that Animagi *must* be able to choose their >forms We always talk about being able to chose or not, but doesn't this only apply - if at all - to wizards who decide to become animagi? I had the impression McGonagall didn't choose to undergo the transformation at some point in her life but rather was born as an animagus. Some are parselmouths, others seers, still others animagi. Maria: >what happens if a female werewolf becomes pregnant ... from a man >or from a wolf? Maybe you can get werewolf cubs ... JKR said in an interview werewolf cubs don't exist, Riddle lied when he accused Hagrid of rising some. Since there's no indication in canon there are other forms of transmitting the curse than through a bite, a male werewolf can probably have normal children with a non-werewolf woman. It would be interesting to see what would happen if Lupin bites Firenze who then gets McGonagall pregnant, though ... ^_~ Catlady: >4) speaking of gender >differences, anatomically it would be more logical for WIZARDS to >ride their brooms side-saddle. Don't forget the Cushioning Charm, it helps a lot. ^_~ Torsten From htfulcher at comcast.net Sun Jan 12 20:36:44 2003 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim ) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 20:36:44 -0000 Subject: Help! Pip has set my mind on fire! WAS Re: Question about Snape and Quirrell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49677 RE: Pip's reply to my questions... With several interruptions during composition, I've attempted here to reply to Pip's excellent reply to my initial questions. In the process I think I've discovered a possible clue to future developments. Forgive it is somewhat disjointed as a message, it is both answering Pip and drifting to speculation about future books > All references by MarEphraim and myself are to the UK paperback > edition of PS/SS. > Snape would know that while Quirrel himself couldn't have been > casting a curse/jinx at the time, Harry was looking at Snape and > Quirrel (because Snape and Harry's eyes met). Quirrel has just > come back from dangerous, dark infested areas. That would put him > at the top of the 'may have been got at' list, at least in Snape's > suspicious mind. I must admit that the consideration Snape would think a curse/jinx was the cause of Harry's pain never occurred to me. At most, I would have thought he'd consider it odd or worrisome. On the other hand, the eye contact issue seems only a herring in that we later learn about the necessity of eye contact (p. 141) from Hermoine, conversing their suspicions with Hagrid. > If you are expecting an attack on the Stone, you would expect > either > a) a major frontal assault with great force or > b) a sneak attack, possibly with a planned distraction to divert > the defenders attention away from the Stone. > > A troll in Hogwarts is a major distraction. It's not a huge leap > of the imagination to work out it may be aimed at leaving a clear > route to the Stone. > > We don't actually know that Snape leaving for the Stone was > unnoticed by *all* the teachers. By Book 4 Snape is working very > closely indeed with Dumbledore and McGonagall (in rescuing Harry > from Fake!Moody). It's possible (though uncertain) that he may > have been *assigned* to do a quick 'fade from the scene and head > for the 3rd floor' in the event of odd happenings; Dumbledore and > McGonagall being the ones who deal with the known danger. This is good reasoning. I had never considered Dumbledore's motive in moving the Stone to to Hogwarts, that He believed He Who Must Not Be Named, or someone, was already looking for it. On the other hand, there is a slight finessing of detail regarding the time-table of Quirrell's trip (p. 55; GOF p. 567) as taking place shortly before Harry's arrival at Hogwarts. Note that Hagrid speaks of it as though it happened some time in the past (he had taken a year off, come back sadly diminished and was not the same since), while You Know Who (at the end of Harry's fourth Year) speaks of his encounter with Quirrell as having taken place "four years ago." However, the context of the Dark Lord's rejoinder could still indicate that the encounter occurred earlier, and that by four years ago his means of return seemed assured. This is a minor point. > Possibly he did go to Dumbledore. But Quirrel's story would > undoubtedly be that he woke up on the floor and realised that the > troll might have been a trick to get at the Stone, so he rushed > straight there to protect it... It seems to me that this attributes suspicion on Quirrell from Snape but not Dumbledore. I ask myself, if Snape had suspected some kind of alliance with He Who Must Not Be Named, would not a Veritaserum- laden Butter Beer have revealed all, including where to find him? Or perhaps, Snape (and Dumbledore) initially feared that someone, not necessarily You Know Who, was after the stone. Pip is correct that Snape must have gotten to Fluffy first as his conversation with Quirrell (p. 165f) raises an accusation as question that Quirrell promptly denies. On the other hand.... This whole exchange between Snape and Quirrell leads to other questions that bear on the remaining books (5, 6, 7): Snape argues with Quirrell but if he is to later (OoP, etc.) play double-agent for Dumbledore, he must be careful to appear interested in the stone only for himself, and not out of loyalty to Dumbledore. If the Dark Lord had already taken over Quirrell's body by this time, a) he would know (correctly guess) that Snape could never again be trusted; or b) turn on him as he had done with Quirrell himself. If he hadn't taken over Quirrell, nonetheless, he would surmise 'treason' on Snape's part. Flammel's Flintbox! Does this mean that Snape will be killed off in OoP, or will the Dark Lord and Dumbledore each attempt to use Snape to mutual advantage, Dumbledore knowing that He Who Must Not Be Named _must_ at least suspect Snape, and You Know Who -- knowing that Snape is traitor to the Dark Mark -- feeding him disinformation! OR! will this prove the vehicle by which Dumbledore will meet his doom (not guessing that Snape is under the Dark Side's suspicion)?!!! > Was Snape working on his own at this point, or was he reporting to > Dumbledore as he is seen doing in Goblet of Fire? Was he > protecting the Stone as a 'lone ranger' or as part of Dumbledore's > team? Will Book Five *ever* reach the publishers? Refer back to "where loyalties lie" in above reference. > For some answers, queue up for the next exciting installment... I have a feeling that the material about Quirrell and Snape in PS\SS will prove of major import in book five (of course, I also had a feeling that 2000 was going to be the year of the Polka)! M.E. From abigailnus at yahoo.com Sun Jan 12 20:54:14 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus ) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 20:54:14 -0000 Subject: Krum, Quidditch, NEWTs, Fleur, and More In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49678 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak " > wrote: > > Pip!Squeak > > > > ...edited... in GoF it's stated that Champions were exempt from end > > of year tests anyway. In the British WW, this would have meant > > Cedric didn't have to take his NEWTS. > > > > ... edited... This implies that having been School Champion is more > > prestigious on your job application forms than even the highest > > grade NEWTS. > > -end this part- > > bboy_mn: > I never thought about N.E.W.T.s. Thinking about test like this, > qualifications test, in the Muggle world, they are usually give at the > school and by the school, but they are not actually part of the > school. They are a national standard test. > > What am I getting at? Well, I don't think you can get out of OWLs and > NEWTs. They are your qualifications and certifications, and they are > administered by a higher authority than the school. So I would guess > the getting out of year end tests meant that you got out of your > various class exams, but not the separate national qualifications > exams. Where I live (Israel) we have a system similar to the O/A-Level system in which a standardized, nation-wide test is given in every subject at the end of the school year, and the grades you get in those tests are used for university application. You're expected to complete a certain number of these matriculation exams, in a variety of subjects and levels of difficulty. There are some subjects that every student has to be tested in, at least at the most basic level, subjects including Bible. The reason I'm mentioning this is that every year, Israel hosts the International Bible Quiz. The winner, if they are Israeli, automatically receives a grade of 100 on his or her Bible exam, which only makes sense because if they know enough to win the Bible Quiz they could ace the exam in their sleep (just for some perspective, I wouldn't even make the qualifying round of the Bible Quiz, and I got a 96 in my Bible exam). I'm wondering if the same might not apply to the TWT/NEWT situation. Presumably, anyone qualified to be a Triwizard champion could ace his NEWTs - after all, the NEWTS test wizarding skills, and so do the TWT tasks. What if the champions who were due to take their NEWTs in the year of the TWT got automatic high marks? Abigail From amani at charter.net Sun Jan 12 19:39:22 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 14:39:22 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: If Muggles are unaware of Wizards, why do they agree to send their kids to Wizarding schools? References: Message-ID: <001701c2ba72$4edadec0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49679 Peter the Couch Elf: If muggles are protected from knowledge of the wizarding world, why do muggle parents (like those of Hermione Granger and Lily Evans Potter) appear to accept so easily the existence of magic? And, more incredibly, why do they agree to the education of their children in wizarding schools where the children are prepared to live in clandestine wizard communities rather than participate in the wider muggle world? Tess: I'd guess there are probably plenty of Muggle parents who, when their children's school letters arrive, figure the whole thing is a joke and toss them (the letters, not the children) out the window. In that case, we'd never hear about the "lost students" whose magical careers were over before they began. (This assumes Hogwarts' single- minded pursuit of Harry in PS/SS was a one-time extra effort to reach someone who was at once helpless to fend for himself and so obviously integral in the WW.) Me: I very much doubt that Hogwarts would just give up like that after one try. After all, magical ability that is untrained can become dangerous, because there is no knowledge of how to control things. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dan at tobias.name Sun Jan 12 20:45:12 2003 From: dan at tobias.name (Daniel R. Tobias) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 15:45:12 -0500 Subject: If Muggles are unaware of Wizards, why do they agree to send their kids to Wizarding schools? In-Reply-To: <1042385224.2745.3445.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <3E218D88.6894.41D9EFD@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 49680 "Shaun Hately" wrote: > I wonder though... what would Hogwarts do in a case where a child wants to attend - but > their Muggle parents don't want to allow it. I really wonder, with what we have seen of > the Wizarding world, if they don't just take the child anyway. The average Wizard seems > to have a fairly low opinion - patronising - of Muggles - I could see them as assuming > they know best. On the other hand, permission slips from parents/guardians were required for student trips to Hogsmeade, and no exception was made for those with Muggle parent/guardians, such as Harry, despite their sometime lack of understanding and sympathy. This seems to indicate that some deference was given to the rights of the legal guardian of a child. On the other hand, at the end of the third book Sirius gave Harry a note in his own name, and indicated that Dumbledore would certainly accept it; Dumbledore tends to support the spirit of the law rather than the letter of it, and regards Sirius as having some moral rights regarding the upbringing of Harry due to being named godfather, even if in the wizarding world he's officially still an escaped convict, and in the muggle world the Dursleys are Harry's legal guardians. The fact that Dumbledore didn't bend the rules during Harry's third year and allow him to go into town with the rest of the students may be more due to his concerns about Harry's safety with Sirius at large (and still believed at that point, even by Dumbledore, to be a danger) than to legalism alone. -- == Dan == Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/ Dan's Domain Site: http://domains.dan.info/ From gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 12 21:45:43 2003 From: gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com (gingersnape1966 ) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 21:45:43 -0000 Subject: Wizarding English: was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: If Muggles are unaware of Wizards, why do they agree to send their kids to Wizarding schools? In-Reply-To: <008f01c2ba6f$56514ca0$b79c7ad5@homeevisham> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49681 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Irene Mikhlin" wrote: > > Anyway, about accents and the wizarding english in general: > > Isn't it strange that such an isolated community keeps in touch with > developments in the > language? I was under an impression that even Ron never met muggle- born > children > before starting Hogwargs, not to mention someone like Draco. > Wizards isolated themselves from muggles sometime in the Middle Ages, and > the most modern > artefact they borrowed from them - train - is early 19th century so how do > they keep up > with the language? > In the muggle world there are many examples of isolated communities where > language > was preserved as it has been at the time of the split from the cultural > metropolis. > > Irene me: That is a good point. I can't answer for DeathEaters and any other anti-Muggle people, but there are wizards who do keep up with the Muggle world. Dumbledore knows of the death of Frank Bryce as he reads Muggle newspapers. There have always been half and halfs and muggleborns at Hogwarts. Fudge or someone in the MoM is in contact with the office of the Muggle Prime Minister. (See PoA) These would probably account for much of it. Other wizards may not be as isolated as others, prefering to live posing as Muggles. (If you have a completely painless experience at the dentist you may want to ask about this). Others may, like Arthur, be curious about Muggles. This would explain why modern English would have crept in, but on the whole, and amongst themselves, you would think they would have kept the old language or developed it in different ways. Perhaps some professional language people can enlighten us? Best to all, the now-curious Ginger From SaalsG at cni-usa.com Sun Jan 12 22:35:39 2003 From: SaalsG at cni-usa.com (Grace) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 16:35:39 -0600 Subject: Immortal Voldemort Message-ID: <00c801c2ba8a$ef832e00$183f53d1@SaalsD> No: HPFGUIDX 49682 I was thinking about that quest for immorality that LV was after. "You know my goal - to conquer death. And now, I was tested, and it appeared that one or more of my experiments had worked ... for I had not been killed." (GoF) It is likely that LV had obtained immortality when his death curse rebounded off little Harry. Fourteen years of living as a vapor or possessing other bodies seems to imply that his vaporous self did not dissapate into the atmosphere. He could have gone on like that forever then. But it appears that immortality isn't all its cracked up to be. I think LV got what he wanted and didn't recognize it. He thinks its back to the drawing board. He also thinks: "I set my sights lower ... I would settle for my old body back again, and my old strength." However, he doesn't have his old body back and he may not have his old strength either because those three powerful ingredients needed to get his body back were never his in the first place. "I admit I had not foreseen ..." says he. This seems to be a reocurring problem that LV has, and I think we are going to see this problem surface again. If LV continues to seek to conquer death, then he will be stopped by some of the same or similar short sightedness that has plagued him all along. But if he gives up the idea of immortality and goes for the power- is-everything, he becomes more dangerous. "Ah, what a story it is, Lucius," said Voldemort. I agree. Grace [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 12 22:04:12 2003 From: gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com (gingersnape1966 ) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 22:04:12 -0000 Subject: If Muggles are unaware of Wizards, why do they agree to send their kids to Wizarding schools? In-Reply-To: <20030112042436.45413.qmail@web20306.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49683 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Peter Shea wrote: > > If muggles are protected from knowledge of the wizarding world, why do muggle parents (like those of Hermione Granger and Lily Evans Potter) appear to accept so easily the existence of magic? And, more incredibly, why do they agree to the education of their children in wizarding schools where the children are prepared to live in clandestine wizard communities rather than participate in the wider muggle world? me: Neville mentioned that he had "bounced" when falling from a window, thus convincing his relieved family that he was magical enough to attend Hogwarts. Harry made odd things happen before he knew he was a wizard. I would assume these are common among young wizards. The Muggle parents have probably been wondering about their children, either attributing unusual happenings to good luck or exceptional intelligence, or something else, depending on how the magical abilities manifested themselves. They might even be relieved that there is an explanation for them. Still waiting for my letter at age 36, Ginger From Ali at zymurgy.org Sun Jan 12 22:38:39 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali ) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 22:38:39 -0000 Subject: Krum, Quidditch, NEWTs, Fleur, and More In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49684 Pip!Squeak wrote:- <<. in GoF it's stated that Champions were exempt from end of year tests anyway. In the British WW, this would have meant Cedric didn't have to take his NEWTS.>> Small LOON point: I think that Cedric was actually in his 6th year, so he wouldn't have been taking his NEWTs til the next year. In which case, whilst the argument re champion over tests is very interesting and might well apply to Krum or Fleur, it would not apply to either of the Hogwart's champions, who would both have been expected to take their OWLs and NEWTs the next year. Ali From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Jan 12 22:53:11 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 22:53:11 -0000 Subject: Wizarding English: was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: If Muggles are unaware of Wizards In-Reply-To: <008f01c2ba6f$56514ca0$b79c7ad5@homeevisham> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49685 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Irene Mikhlin" wrote: > Irene: > > Anyway, about accents and the wizarding english in general: > > Isn't it strange that such an isolated community keeps in touch > with developments in the language? ...edited... > Wizards isolated themselves from muggles sometime in the Middle > Ages, and the most modern artifact they borrowed from them - train > - is early 19th century so how do they keep up with the language? > In the muggle world there are many examples of isolated communities > ...edited... > > Irene bboy_mn: Let's add some perspective to this. How is it that the Scottish and the Irish have failed to keep up with modern English, for that matter, from an American perspective, how is it that the English have failed to keep up? English in the middle ages was a completely foriegn language relative to anything we would remotely consider English. I read the Magna Charta in Old English, it was completely indecipherable. I could have just as well been written in Swahili. Compare how Harry and Ron talk relative to the way Daniel and Rupert talk, and I think you will see that Harry and Ron speak a very basic standard quality English. It's not colored by modern phrases, or ethnic brogue. Harry and Ron don't describe anything and everthing they see as being either 'cool' or 'wicked'. As far as wizards (re: your reference to the train) being trapped in the 19th century, let's not forget wizard automobiles and Wizards Wireless. I don't think wizards are 'trapped' in any age; I think they just hold to their traditions of dress and culture. Remember that many wizard live among the muggles, however, I think they, like the Weasleys, are able to stay isolate because they don't have to leave their house to travel. That is, they don't have to venture out into the muggle world. They either Floo or Apparate. So while they are able to look out the window and see the muggle world around them, they prefer to keep to themselves and stick with the old traditional ways. The Weasleys have been to their local village, but I think, to them, it is about the same as a typcial Englishman venturing out alone into a primitive tribal village in Africa, Asia, or South America. It's an extremely foriegn, scary, and unpredicatable place. I remember a witch (presumably) waved to Harry on a city bus. The witch may have resigned herself to the fate of the bus, as a matter of practical necesstity, but I suspect she regarded that contraption right up there with riding on the back of a water buffalo or camel. Besides, muggle trains, planes, and automobiles.... those things are dangerous? I mean riding an enchanted broom is one thing, afterall, you can trust magic, but to get inside one of those roaring clattering tin cans filled with highly volital fuel, cramped up with a hundred other dirty, smell, loud, ignorant muggles and attempt to fly through the air... why it's positively absurd. It's not that wizards aren't part of the modern world, they just find it to be so primitive, unpredictable, dangerous, and therefore somewhat repulsive that they avoid it, and stick with tried and true tradition fo wizards. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. bboy_mn From Heleen at ptdprolog.net Sun Jan 12 22:14:52 2003 From: Heleen at ptdprolog.net (Heleen Greenwald) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 17:14:52 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: If Muggles are unaware of Wizards, why do they agree to send their kids to Wizarding schools? References: <001701c2ba72$4edadec0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: <00cb01c2ba88$083736b0$a500a8c0@boghouse> No: HPFGUIDX 49686 Peter the Couch Elf: If muggles are protected from knowledge of the wizarding world, why do muggle parents (like those of Hermione Granger and Lily Evans Potter) appear to accept so easily the existence of magic? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I don't think Muggles are totally protected from knowledge of the Wizard world. There are bits and pieces in the books which seem to intimate that some Muggles know *something*.... Phillipa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From suzloua at hotmail.com Sun Jan 12 22:45:59 2003 From: suzloua at hotmail.com (Susan Atherton) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 22:45:59 -0000 Subject: FIE!! (Was RE-I don't expect a complete bloodbath and a Question) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49687 dopeydora at ntlworld.com asked: > Why when Sirius Black was caught by the MOM after they thought he killed > Wormtail(Peter Pettigrew) and a street full of muggles and betrayed James > and Lily was he not given Veritaserum(Truth serum). > Surely he denied the charges against him? So it would have been the most > logical course of action to take. And Snuffles replied: >Sirius points out that he didn't even have a trial before he was sent to Azkaban. I hardly think they would have wasted time with the Veritaserum. Basically the MoM wanted someone in Azkaban for the crimes. Sirius looked pretty darn guilty on that street. >( Although there is a mistake in the book - Sirius says he had no trial. Dumbledore says he testified at Sirius's trial to the effect that Sirius was the Potters' secret keeper--- this has been brought up a few times here...) And I screech: IT WAS FUDGE!!! IT WAS ALL EVIL EVIL CORNELIUS FUDGE!!!! ~near hysteria~ Ahem. ~composes self~ Evil Fudge made sure Sirius did not get the benefit of Veritaserum. (Although possibly Sirius did something daft like confess,as he did to Harry, but I like to think that Fudge Is Evil, so...) Evil Fudge made sure that although Sirius received a trial, it was fixed and Sirius himself never attended it - he was thrown into Azkaban before his trial took place, and Evil Fudge, with his friend NastyYetDetermined!Crouch made sure he stayed there. Basically? Everything, ever, that ever went wrong - it can all be traced back to Fudge. ~nods in a satisfied fashion, trying not to show her internal fear that OotP will herald the arrival of Good!Fudge~ Susan who is liking this idea of people being Ever So Evil very much ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Despite constant warnings, you never meet anyone who's had their arm broken by a swan. Men are very like slinkys; a bit pointless but fun to watch fall down stairs. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From isis at windom.netrack.net Sun Jan 12 22:53:00 2003 From: isis at windom.netrack.net (isiscolo ) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 22:53:00 -0000 Subject: Snape as past/future spy WAS Re: Question about Snape and Quirrell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49688 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marephraim " wrote: [snip snip] > On the other hand.... This whole exchange between Snape and Quirrell > leads to other questions that bear on the remaining books (5, 6, 7): > Snape argues with Quirrell but if he is to later (OoP, etc.) play > double-agent for Dumbledore, he must be careful to appear interested > in the stone only for himself, and not out of loyalty to Dumbledore. > If the Dark Lord had already taken over Quirrell's body by this > time, a) he would know (correctly guess) that Snape could never > again be trusted; or b) turn on him as he had done with Quirrell > himself. If he hadn't taken over Quirrell, nonetheless, he would > surmise 'treason' on Snape's part. Why, oh why, does just about everyone assume that Snape *will be* a spy in later books? I mean, is there some indication of this (other than the mysterious task mentioned at the end of GoF), or has JKR dropped hints? I read Lord V's "one who has left me forever" comment to mean that he *knows* that Snape is no longer a DE. I believe that Snape *was* a spy in the past, in between being active DE and being Hogwarts teacher (or at least during beginning of his tenure. I can't see Snape as a *future* spy, because I believe that Voldemort is fully aware of where his loyalty lies. > > Was Snape working on his own at this point, or was he reporting to > > Dumbledore as he is seen doing in Goblet of Fire? Was he > > protecting the Stone as a 'lone ranger' or as part of Dumbledore's > > team? Will Book Five *ever* reach the publishers? I think that he was working for the Good Guys and not hiding it from Q and V. I just don't see how V could possibly still believe Snape to be on his side. I. From suzchiles at pobox.com Sun Jan 12 23:15:21 2003 From: suzchiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 15:15:21 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: If Muggles are unaware of Wizards, why do they agree to send their kids to Wizarding schools? In-Reply-To: <00cb01c2ba88$083736b0$a500a8c0@boghouse> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49689 > From: Heleen Greenwald [mailto:Heleen at ptdprolog.net] > Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2003 2:15 PM > To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: If Muggles are unaware of Wizards, why > do they agree to send their kids to Wizarding schools? > > > Peter the Couch Elf: > If muggles are protected from knowledge of the wizarding world, why > do muggle parents (like those of Hermione Granger and Lily Evans > Potter) appear to accept so easily the existence of magic? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------ > > I don't think Muggles are totally protected from knowledge of the > Wizard world. There are bits and pieces in the books which seem > to intimate that some Muggles know *something*.... > Phillipa I have always thought that Hogwart's uses other Muggle parents of students to meet with parents when they get their first letter. It's not too far a stretch to imagine the Grangers, for example, to have met with the Creeveys when Colin first got his letter. Suzanne From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Jan 12 23:32:11 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 23:32:11 -0000 Subject: Snape as past/future spy WAS Re: Question about Snape and Quirrell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49690 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "isiscolo " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marephraim " > wrote: > [snip snip] > > marephraim" > > On the other hand.... This whole exchange between Snape and > > Quirrell leads to other questions that bear on the remaining > > books: Snape argues with Quirrell but if he is to later (OoP, > > etc.) play double-agent for Dumbledore, he must be careful > > to appear interested in the stone only for himself, and not > > out of loyalty to Dumbledore. -end this part- > isiscolo: > > Why, oh why, does just about everyone assume that Snape *will > be* a spy in later books? I mean, is there some indication > of this (other than the mysterious task mentioned at the end > of GoF), or has JKR dropped hints? > -end this part- bboy_mn: Got a better explaination? What else is Snape going to do? The only way I can see him being effective in the fight against Voldemort is to get back in VOldemort's good graces. If not that then what? -bboy_Mn -end this part- > isiscolo continues: > > I read Lord V's "one who has left me forever" comment to mean > that he *knows* that Snape is no longer a DE. > -end this part- bboy_mn: It's common knowledge that Snape got out of being prosecuted as a Death Eater by claiming with the backing of Dumbledore that he was a spy. All the other Death Eater who got out of trouble, all had their own lies as excuses for getting out of trouble. They don't believe Snape was a spy any more that Snape believes that Malfoy was bewitched. The only options I can see, is that Snape goes back to Voldemort sucks up a bit, and convinces Voldie that he, Snape, was a double agent essentially giving genuine but worthless information to Dumbledore while bringing much more valuable information back to Voldie. If that's not what he's going to do, then what? What good is he in the fight, if he's not a spy? -bboy_mn -end this part- > > marephraim: (?) > > >Was he protecting the Stone as a 'lone ranger' or as part of > > >Dumbledore's team? Will Book Five *ever* reach the publishers? > > >-end this part- > isiscolo continues: > > I think that he was working for the Good Guys and not > hiding it from Q and V. I just don't see how V could > possibly still believe Snape to be on his side. > > I. bboy_mn: Snape has no way of knowing that Quirrel was working with or for Voldemort. I guess it's possible that Quirrel told Snape but I doubt it. I think the story would have gone much differently if Snape knew Voldemort was in the castle. So, from Snape perspective, all he was doing was keeping the stone away from an marginally competent and obviously corrupt wizard like Quirrel. I imagine the wizard world is full of greedy people who would love to get their hands on the Stone. But the alchemist have closely guard it the Stone and it's secrets for Millenium. Those who understand it power, and it's power to corrupt; guard it very closely. Only a very priviledge enlightened few are allowed to know the secret, and that really how it should be. So, Snape was not acting against Voldemort. He was not conciously choosing Dumbledore over Voldemort. He was simply guarding a very dangerous magical artifact from a very dangerous wizard like Quirrel. Of course, it may mean enduring the Cruciatus Curse a few times as penance, but I doubt that Voldie will kill him for that one transgression. just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Sun Jan 12 23:37:38 2003 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 23:37:38 -0000 Subject: Wizarding English: was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: If Muggles are unaware of Wizards References: Message-ID: <006501c2ba93$97e373e0$be737ad5@homeevisham> No: HPFGUIDX 49691 bboy_mn wrote: > > Let's add some perspective to this. > > How is it that the Scottish and the Irish have failed to keep up with > modern English, for that matter, from an American perspective, how is > it that the English have failed to keep up? Thanks for helping me to refine my point: UK and America is actually quite a good analogy: they are not completely isolated, there are contacts, visits, people read books and watch movies - it's at least as much interaction as modern wizards seem to have with muggles. And yet the languages went their own separate ways. > > Compare how Harry and Ron talk relative to the way Daniel and Rupert > talk, and I think you will see that Harry and Ron speak a very basic > standard quality English. It's not colored by modern phrases, or > ethnic brogue. Harry and Ron don't describe anything and everthing > they see as being either 'cool' or 'wicked'. The point is - Harry and Ron speak the same, despite their very different upbringing. Ron only has wizarding books and wizarding radio and yet his vocabulary and speech patterns are the same as Harry's. Irene From gandharvika at hotmail.com Sun Jan 12 23:53:29 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 23:53:29 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Perfectly Normal Muggles (WAS: FILK idea) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49692 Anne U. Wrote: >I've seen many filks on this list so perhaps this is the right place >to post an idea for a filk. >SNIP< We don't >know much about Hermione's parents, but we do know that they seem to >have accepted and perhaps even embraced the fact that she's a witch. >SNIP A BIT MORE< You might even called them modern ... >thoroughly modern... especially for Muggles... perhaps even >Thoroughly Modern Muggles??:-) Well...I've been tweaking at the lyrics here. I've come up with a Muggle filk, however it's not about Hermione's parents. We have much more dirt on the Dursleys :)> I hope you dig it. Perfectly Normal Muggles (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Thoroughly Modern Millie_ from the musical of the same name) SS chapter 4 "Haven't I told you he's not going?" Uncle Vernon hissed. "He's going to Stonewall High and he'll be happy for it. I've read those letters and he needs all sorts of rubbish. Spell books and wands and..." "If he wants ter go, a great Muggle like you won't stop him, " growled Hagrid. Uncle Vernon (Intro) We will not Have him taught Spells by some Old crackpot This magic rubbish Spell books and magic wands What we think about it is that it's horrible We think it's odd, different and deplorable the plain fact is... Uncle Vernon and Aunt Petunia Together: Everyone knows we are perfectly normal Thank you very very much Everyone knows we won't tolerate This is the reality Not that...insanity It's nothing but tosh In fact...it's nonsense To wave a wand and cast some spell In our average life, our world is so ordered But that boy is impossible Any sort of magic we won't allow Here it's not permissible Goodbye Wizarding World We've taken a vow We'll stamp it out 'Coz we're perfectly normal Muggles now Everyone knows we are perfectly normal Wizards are so peculiar We both will not permit Harry to go Not to that fool school of yours We say it's abnormal What you all do You're forgetting that We won't pay for his school Have you seen the way they dress in those long robes? Isn't it deplorable? We'll beat it out of that boy somehow Goodbye Wizarding World We've taken a vow We'll stamp it out 'Coz we're perfectly normal Muggles now! -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Jan 13 00:30:39 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 00:30:39 -0000 Subject: Wizarding English: was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: If Muggles are unaware of Wizards In-Reply-To: <006501c2ba93$97e373e0$be737ad5@homeevisham> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49693 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Irene Mikhlin" wrote: > > bboy_mn said: > > Compare how Harry and Ron talk relative to the way Daniel and > > Rupert talk, and I think you will see that Harry and Ron speak > > a very basic standard quality English. It's not colored by modern > > phrases, or ethnic brogue. Harry and Ron don't describe anything > > and everthing they see as being either 'cool' or 'wicked'. > Irene responded: > > The point is - Harry and Ron speak the same, despite their very > different upbringing. Ron only has wizarding books and wizarding > radio and yet his vocabulary and speech patterns are the same as > Harry's. > > Irene Close but not quite. Ron knows all kinds of wizard slang like 'squib' that Harry doesn't. Harry on the other hand lived a very isolated life. True, he was in a muggle school with lots of muggle kids, but thanks to Dudley, I think Harry did everything possible to spend all his time alone, because alone was the only safe place to be. So he wouldn't pick up on a lot of the generational language that all his peer would. Both Harry and Ron speak 'Good Boy' English. These are decent civil well mannered 'Good Boys', there not Cockney Boys or football hooligans, and that is reflected in their proper and respectful speech. Stan Shumpike on the other hand, while he may be a good boy, he is not a "Good Boy", not a refined and proper young English gentleman (through no fault of his own). All the fine young students at Hogwarts seem to be well mannered 'Good Boys' and 'Good Girls'. They speak in common refined 'Good' English as opposed to heavy generational slang. Even Daniel and Rupert, although Daniel more so, speak 'Good Boy' English. Now Tome Felton, on the other hand, while he may be a good boy and even a "Good Boy", has an accent so thick when he is not using his stage voice that I can barely understand him. Just a few more thoughts. bboy_mn From catlady at wicca.net Mon Jan 13 01:22:46 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) ) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 01:22:46 -0000 Subject: Animagi/Muggle parents who oppose their children going to Hogwarts/Dialects Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49694 Torsten wrote: << We always talk about being able to chose or not, but doesn't this only apply - if at all - to wizards who decide to become animagi? I had the impression McGonagall didn't choose to undergo the transformation at some point in her life but rather was born as an animagus. Some are parselmouths, others seers, still others animagi. >> There is no canon showing that anyone ever was born an Animagus, while there IS canon showing that some people (James, Sirius, and Peter) learned to be Animagi. While it is possible that some people are born Animagi, until JKR says so, it is simpler to assume that that Animagery is a learned skill for ALL Animagi, not just some. It seemed to me that McGonagall had learned Animagery by studying; she is a learned person, the Transfiguration teacher, and she seems a studious type. Dan Tobias wrote: << This seems to indicate that some deference was given to the rights of the legal guardian of a child. >> It's my own feeling that the wizarding world doesn't know from de jure guardians, only de facto guardians. Dumbledore didn't need a court order or a document from James and Lily to become Harry's guardian, he only needed to fetch Harry from the wreckage and not be challenged by anyone else. Perhaps a court would have gotten involved if someone had challenged him. So if a wizarding court sometimes does get involved in child custody cases, surely they would think it was child abuse to try to prevent a little witch or wizard from getting a proper magical education, and therefore it might terminate the parental rights of those abusive Muggle parents and appoint a new guardian for the child. If they didn't use to bother to Memory Charm the parents after taking away the child, that would be one more reason for traditional Muggle hostility toward wizards. Steve bboy_mn wrote: << Harry and Ron don't describe anything and everthing they see as being either 'cool' or 'wicked'. >> No, as "brilliant". For example, Book 1, when the Twins learn that Harry is the new Seeker: "I tell you, we're going to win that Quidditch cup for sure this year," said Fred. "We haven't won since Charlie left, but this year's team is going to be BRILLIANT. You must be good, Harry, Wood was almost skipping when he told us." [Emphasis added] Ginger wrote: << This would explain why modern English would have crept in, but on the whole, and amongst themselves, you would think they would have kept the old language or developed it in different ways. >> Steve bboy_mn wrote: << Remember that many wizard live among the muggles, however, I think they, like the Weasleys, are able to stay isolate because they don't have to leave their house to travel. That is, they don't have to venture out into the muggle world. They either Floo or Apparate. So while they are able to look out the window and see the muggle world around them, they prefer to keep to themselves and stick with the old traditional ways. >> Irene wrote: << The point is - Harry and Ron speak the same, despite their very different upbringing. Ron only has wizarding books and wizarding radio and yet his vocabulary and speech patterns are the same as Harry's. >> It seems to me that there are many Muggle-born witches and wizards in each generation, and they intermarry freely with the wizard-born wizards and witches, a much higher percentage of the wizarding population than Yanks married to Brits are of the Muggle population, thus spreading their contemporary-Muggle accents to their wizarding children, and causing the meeting of Muggle in-laws with wizarding in-laws at family events, thus facilitating those wizard-Muggle marriages we hear so much about, and more importation of Muggle dialect into the wizarding world, a constant contact between wizards and Muggles. It seems plausible to me that WWN English is *very* similar to BBC English. What I do find implausible is that the wizarding folk would have the same *regional* accents as the Muggles among whom they live. Stan Shunpike is supposed to have some kind of Cockney accent, Hagrid to have some kind of West Country accent, and someone I forget has a bit of a Scots burr. How did they get those accents? Not by interacting with the neighbors, since, as Steve pointed out, they don't interact with the neighbors. I find it implausible that the wizarding folk would have *regional* accents *at all*, as they all shop in the same place (Diagon Alley) and go to school at the same place (Hogwarts) and are not isolated from each other, because (as Steve said) they have Floo powder and Apparation. Thus, all British wizards are one region. I don't have trouble believing that proud old upper-class families like the Malfoys (and presumably the Rookwoods and Crouches) carefully maintain an upper-class accent. I do have trouble believing that their upper-class accent is the same as Queen Elizabeth's. Since it is the proud old families that keep most separate from Muggles and Muggle-borns, their special accent should be the one that is least influenced by Muggle dialect. I don't know whether it would sound kind of Irish or Appalachian, resembling the English of Shakespeare's time, or if it would resemble some horrible gutteral German-like Anglo-Saxon, or resemble Latin, or resemble whatever language the Picts spoke before they joined the Scots... Justin Finch-Fletchley's accent doesn't say "upper-class" to the Malfoy ear, it shouts "Muggle!". From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jan 13 01:43:30 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 01:43:30 -0000 Subject: Perfidious!Lupin(WAS: Against Evil!Lupin responses (long)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49695 Marina said (of perfidy): > The dictionary definition may not reqire malice, but I don't think > I've ever before encountered the term in a context that didn't imply > it. Dictionary definitions sometime miss the connotations attached > to words in actual usage. The usage note in my Random House says "*perfidious* applies to what is abominably treacherous: it suggests vileness of behavior and often deceitfullness" Many of the blackest names in treachery are not associated with malice, and many of them regretted their doings afterward. Judas hanged himself and Brutus ran upon his sword. Were they not perfidious? Macbeth's betrayal of Duncan is vile precisely because there was no malice involved: "I have no spur to prick the sides of my intent, but only vaulting ambition..." Me: > > I think the closest parallel in Harry's experience is his theft of > > the Weasley car, when he realizes that because of him, Arthur > > Weasley could be in trouble. > > > > "Harry pushed his porridge away. His insides were burning with > > guilt. Mr. Weasley was facing an inquiry at work. after all Mr. > and > > Mrs. Weasley had done for him over the summer." -- CoS ch. 6. Marina: > I don't think that's a parallel at all. Harry is feeling bad > because he was caught and then presented with tangible negative > consequences of what he's done. If he and Ron had gotten away clean > with that Ford Anglia stunt, if no one found out and no one got in > trouble, do you think he'd be sitting around angsting about what > might've been? Harry has been angsting about what might happen to Mr. Weasley since the day before, when Snape pointed out that Ron's father works at the Ministry of Magic. And he still feels "bleak" about it months later, when he finds out the results of the inquiry. My point was that Harry feels (and the reader has been shown) what a despicable thing it is to betray someone who goes out of their way to help you. Marina: >Harry had plenty of opportunities to tell, he knew he should > tell, he knew he was lying to Dumbledore about something important, > and he did it anyway I must point out that Harry did *not* lie to Dumbledore in CoS. Dumbledore very gently and delicately said, "I must ask you, Harry, whether there is anything you'd like to tell me. Anything at all." Dumbledore carefully gave Harry a choice about whether to tell him or not, and Harry chose. Not wisely, but not treacherously either. Harry doesn't owe anything special to Dumbledore (if anything, the reverse is true) and it's not his job to keep the school free of basilisks. I agree that Harry's sense of duty doesn't always kick in when it should, but when it finally does, he listens to it. This is what I don't see in Lupin. Lupin, according to his own account, has felt guilty before and it didn't change him. Maybe, as you say, the confession marks a true change of heart. After all, he's willing to let Harry take Peter up to the castle, though one thing that is sure to happen is that Peter will tell everything he knows. Innocent or guilty, Lupin's secrets are toast. (Poor Sirius, if only he had been a real Death Eater and had had names with which to buy his release from Azkaban) And then Lupin volunteers to be chained to Pettigrew. After talking for at least an hour about being a werewolf, he forgets about the full moon? His greatest fear? Even if Lupin thought he had taken his potion, he still should have known that he was going to change. He really shouldn't have offered to be chained to Peter. If that was a mistake, it was an awfully convenient one. Pippin From kristen at sanderson-web.com Mon Jan 13 02:12:07 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (gkjpo ) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 02:12:07 -0000 Subject: Snape as past/future spy WAS Re: Question about Snape and Quirrell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49696 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve " wrote: > > bboy_mn: > Got a better explaination? What else is Snape going to do? The only > way I can see him being effective in the fight against Voldemort is to > get back in VOldemort's good graces. If not that then what? > -bboy_Mn -end this part- > Me: That is the question, isn't it? I was thinking about this and I am wondering if spying isn't too obvious a role for him. We know that Dumbledore has been planning for LV to come back for some time and he seems to trust a lot in Snape. Could it be that they already have something planned and this sets it in motion. Some ideas I have are the following: - Snape could be working on a potion for the fight - maybe he is making some polyjuice potion to impersonate a DE (Lucius Malfoy?). - Another potion he could be working on may be one to take advantage of the fact that LV used Harry's blood (a.k.a. "The Gleam"). - Also, I am wondering if Snape is tied to Neville the same way he has been tied to Harry. He goes out of his way to be mean to both Harry and Neville. In Harry's case, it turned out that he had a life- debt to Harry's father. In Neville's case, could it be that he had something to do with the demise of the Longbottoms (by that time he was on the good side, so maybe he was duped or didn't act quickly enough and feels responsible). Possibly, his task is to free them from St. Mungos and cure them. Since Lucius has control there, that might be more difficult than one might think. Any of these things could be, in some way, life threatening and we know that whatever Dumbledore asked him to do was dangerous. Regardless of what he does now, it seems obvious from the end of GoF that at some point he will have to join forces with Sirius - and we know Sirius will not be impersonating any DEs (he didn't even know about the dark mark on the arm thing). Just some of my thoughts Kristen (who would love to see Snape's mission be something that is not yet obvious) From kewiromeo at aol.com Sun Jan 12 23:28:43 2003 From: kewiromeo at aol.com (kewiromeo at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 18:28:43 EST Subject: Hagrid and Voldermort Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49697 At the end of GoF it may seem strange that Hagrid had said that he was sure that LV would come back. It might make people think that he is evil and he has been hoping that LV would come back. But then again, there is enough evidence in the book to infer that anyone in the book is working for him and on the bad side. However, Hagrid was the one who pulled Harry out of the wreckage (whatever reckage there was) and was the first one to see what had happened. Or was he? Then again, why would Dumbledore know to go and get Harry? Or had he simply sent Hagrid to go and check on Harry? What was so significant about that night that LV was going after them, that then specifically had James wanted to make Sirius his secret keeper and then switch to Peter? Only time will tell what had happened before that would make the Potters have to go into hiding. And, if Hagrid was the first on the scene, or since he was at the scene at all, he would have noticed no body there. But, where did LV's wand go? Someone had found it, perhaps Peter had gotten there before Sirius went to check and Hagrid had shown up and took the wand, but then again, when he Animorphed he didn't have it. So, now we have established that there wasn't a body and there was no wand. Perhaps Peter's mom still has his old wand, with the finger. Which brings me to LV. He killed Frank Bryce and he screwed around with Bertha Jorkin's memory. I don't understand how he was equiped to do it. What exactly was he in that babylike form? And we still don't know how he even came to that point. When he tells Peter to kill Cedric he does it with LV's wand as well. I guess I realized that Peter didn't have a wand. But, I'm not sure that Peter could have killed Cedric, tie Harry down and then put the wand back into the robes, but it is completely possible. Tzvi of Brooklyn "There is no spoon" -Psychic Child, The Matrix [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dmwang9 at aol.com Mon Jan 13 00:10:54 2003 From: dmwang9 at aol.com (Dave ) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 00:10:54 -0000 Subject: Lucius Mafoy's job? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49698 Do we know from canon what job, if any, Lucius Malfoy has? For some reason, my initial thought was that that he worked for the Ministry of Magic, but he's not listed in the HP Lexicon as an MoM official, so I guess he doesn't. I think that I assumed he worked there due to the amount of influence he has with the Ministry, or else maybe I read a fanfic that put him there and got it confused with canon. Thanks in advance for your help, Dave From dan at tobias.name Mon Jan 13 01:35:42 2003 From: dan at tobias.name (Daniel R. Tobias) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 20:35:42 -0500 Subject: Wizarding English: was Re: Re: If Muggles are unaware of Wizards, why do they agree to send their kids to Wizarding schools In-Reply-To: <1042417847.4003.68252.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <3E21D19E.10475.52793D4@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 49699 "Irene Mikhlin" said: > Wizards isolated themselves from muggles sometime in the Middle Ages, and > the most modern > artefact they borrowed from them - train - is early 19th century so how do > they keep up > with the language? Actually, they also adopted indoor plumbing... note all the references to bathrooms at Hogwarts. I guess they do occasionally regard muggle innovations as useful; bedpans and outhouses, even enhanced by magic, were inferior solutions. There's clearly a good deal of cultural borrowing in both directions between wizards and muggles despite their separation; wizards have borrowed some muggle technologies and language change, while muggles have absorbed some wizard stuff into folklore. > In the muggle world there are many examples of isolated communities where > language > was preserved as it has been at the time of the split from the cultural > metropolis. That's not quite accurate; language has a strong tendency to change and evolve in all cases, but isolated communities will evolve in different directions. The language spoken in an isolated place may have some elements in common with the ancestral language, which may have been lost in the outside community, but will have other things that are changed from the original language, just in different ways from the "outside" language. After a long enough separation, the two groups will speak very different languages, and neither will be identical to the ancestral tongue. -- == Dan == Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/ Dan's Domain Site: http://domains.dan.info/ From jayemelle at earthlink.net Mon Jan 13 01:59:45 2003 From: jayemelle at earthlink.net (Jeana ) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 01:59:45 -0000 Subject: If Muggles are unaware of Wizards, why do they agree to send their kids to Wizarding schools? In-Reply-To: <20030112181425.23651.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49700 > Barb: > > There's nothing to suggest that Harry's experience was one-time. Even though they assumed that he was in fact knowledgeable about the wizarding world (Hagrid expressed surprise that Harry wasn't completely clued-in) when it was clear that none of the letters had reached him, a further effort was made. Each letter may in fact be enchanted and extras may spontaneously be produced and try to get to the recipient until the potential student finally actually opens it and reads it for himself (without it being snatched away and/or disposed of--Harry did in fact open and start to read a letter, but this is what happened). Why should we think that some special enchantment was invented for when Harry received his letters, when it was not expected that there would be trouble? Me: I think the powers that be at Hogwarts had every reason to believe there would be trouble when Harry recieved his letters--they'd known from the get-go that the Dursleys were "the worst kind of Muggles" (or perhaps "worst sort"--I'm at the office and quoting from memory, sorry), and that's not promising in terms of the type of upbringing they expected Harry to receive in his relatives' care. And although _Hagrid_ was certainly shocked to learn that Harry didn't know about his past, I don't think we ever know what Dumbledore, McGonagall, or anyone else who oversees the admissions process thought of the situation. Perhaps they were prepared to combat it because they expected it--and with good reason. Because they knew early on that the environment Harry would be placed in would not be a magically nurturing one, and because of the extreme importance of Harry in the WW, I think there certainly would have been some sort of extra effort, when the time came, to make sure he was contacted about Hogwarts. Although perhaps I was incorrect in phrasing it a "one- time" effort, because we certainly don't know that something like that has never happened before, I still believe Hogwarts would have put more time and resources (as in, sending Hagrid personally to find him) into making sure Harry would attend, than into doing so for a more run-of-the-mill student, Muggle-born or otherwise. And I do think that there have to be potential students who never make it to wizarding school at all--Hogwarts and the other schools can't force a child or his/her family to accept the existence of magic and the need for magical education--and who, thus, remain untrained. As for the other questions you brought up, they've definitely made me think. Perhaps "class" wasn't the right word for the defining characteristic I was trying to describe. Since I'm at work right now, with no access to the books or time to think on the issue, I'll try to come up with a clearer answer later, and get back to you :o) Tess From bebche2 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 13 02:23:51 2003 From: bebche2 at yahoo.com (Peter Shea) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 18:23:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rowling's decision to form an attraction between Hermione & Ron rather than Hermione & Harry Message-ID: <20030113022351.58664.qmail@web20304.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49701 This is not a typical shipper question insofar as it doesn't address the appropriateness of one character becoming involved with another. Rather, it addresses the relationship of the author to her characters. Jo Rowling has said that Hermione is a character loosely based on herself. As such, it is interesting that she has Hermione becoming attracted to Ron rather than Harry. It's significant since frequently the central male character of any story is also the designated "alpha male" of the characters, the one for whom love comes soonest. Comments? Peter the Couch Elf --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kristen at sanderson-web.com Mon Jan 13 02:39:51 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (gkjpo ) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 02:39:51 -0000 Subject: Perfidious!Lupin(WAS: Against Evil!Lupin responses (long)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49702 Ok, I tried to stay out of this, but I just can't. I must admit that Lupin is one of my favorite characters and I think it would be really be too bad to see that a person who overcame so much adversity to be on the good side (for people who don't even trust him), to actually turn out to be bad. I would like to make one or two points relative to this discussion. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999 " > I must point out that Harry did *not* lie to Dumbledore in CoS. > Dumbledore very gently and delicately said, "I must ask you, > Harry, whether there is anything you'd like to tell me. Anything at > all." > Yes, this is true... How do we know that Dumbledore didn't give the same type of choices to Lupin at an early age. Yes, Lupin betrayed Dumbledore's trust and canon show that both he, Sirius and James all did things that could qualify as perfidious. However, the quote above and numerous other canon references show that Dumbledore is a different type of mentor. He likes to stand back and allow the people around him to develop their own character while taking them for what they are. Only occasionally does he interfere and even then it's only a hint of what the right direction might be. He could be accused of some perfidity himself in PS/SS when he sits back and allows Harry to face LV with little or no preparation. If you think about how Dumbledore mentors Harry and think back to how he would have mentored young Lupin, Lupin's actions are better understood (in my mind). Lupin may have felt, because of Dumbledore's earlier confidence in him, that he could handle the situation on his own without having to admit his faults/mistakes. No one wants to admit faults and mistakes to their mentors/heros. Another thing we do not know is how much effort Lupin put into taking care of the Sirius problem himself. Yes, he did not tell Dumbledore, but in not informing the headmaster, did he take it upon himself to protect Harry from Sirius? He, after all, also knew all the secret entrances even without the Marauder's Map. On the first Hogsmeade visit, he made a point of asking what Harry was doing without Ron and Hermione around him. He is the one who also made Harry take his own safety seriously (after the map incident). Once he had the map, there's no canon telling how much he used it to watch the castle for any sign of Sirius. Also remember that he knows the magic that went into creating the map, so who knows how much castle watching he could do even before he had it. > And then Lupin volunteers to be chained to Pettigrew. After > talking for at least an hour about being a werewolf, he forgets > about the full moon? His greatest fear? Even if Lupin thought he > had taken his potion, he still should have known that he was > going to change. He really shouldn't have offered to be chained > to Peter. If that was a mistake, it was an awfully convenient one. > He left for the shack only after seeing Peter and then Sirius on the map. Seeing someone you thought dead for the last 12 years and then someone you knew was after the person you were attempting to protect all by yourself is enough to make anyone forget current circumstances. He didn't clear the map, lock his office, or do anything after he saw that. That means to me that he was so surprised by what he saw and so concerned about the safety of Harry, that all else was put aside. It could be that he chained himself to Pettigrew for the same reason Ron did (because of his association with Pettigrew, he felt responsible). Just my two muggle cents Kristen From kristen at sanderson-web.com Mon Jan 13 02:46:45 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (gkjpo ) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 02:46:45 -0000 Subject: Lucius Mafoy's job? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49703 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dave " wrote: > Do we know from canon what job, if any, Lucius Malfoy has? For some > reason, my initial thought was that that he worked for the Ministry of Magic, but > he's not listed in the HP Lexicon as an MoM official, so I guess he doesn't. I > think that I assumed he worked there due to the amount of influence he has > with the Ministry, or else maybe I read a fanfic that put him there and got it > confused with canon. > > Thanks in advance for your help, > Dave I can't imagine Lucius having anything so vulgar as a job. I believe he is involved in the MoM, but not with any sort of day-to-day job. According to The Harry Potter Lexicon, "Lucius Malfoy serves on the Committee for the Disposal of Dangerous Creatures." We also know that he has given substantial donations to "all the right causes". After CoS, he was sacked as school govenor. Kristen From pennylin at swbell.net Mon Jan 13 03:04:59 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 21:04:59 -0600 Subject: Rowling's decision to form an attraction between Hermione & Ron rather than Hermione & Harry References: <20030113022351.58664.qmail@web20304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <02db01c2bab0$8f190ff0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 49704 Hi -- <<<>>>>>> I disagree that Hermione is attracted to Ron. IMHO, she's attracted to Harry, which will cause no end of trouble within the Trio when Ron figures out why she won't go out with him. I think Hermione just dislikes Fleur in a general feminist sort of way, so I don't put much stock in the "glares" that supposedly mean that Hermione is jealous over attention Fleur gives to Ron. More importantly, I think the fact that Krum is bothered enough by Hermione's involvement with Harry to question Harry about their relationship (she talks about Harry "all the time" around Krum) to be perhaps the most telling piece of evidence that it's Harry she likes, rather than Ron. There's no indication that Krum has the slightest idea who Ron even is, let alone that he considers him a potential romantic rival. I also don't buy the notion that Krum's conversation with Harry is a plot device designed to get the two of them in conversation ....... there are any number of other things that could have drawn Harry into a walk and conversation with Krum other than Krum's perception of Harry as a rival for Hermione's affections. Penny (ever the proponent of FITD.......) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Mon Jan 13 03:27:38 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) ) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 03:27:38 -0000 Subject: Lucius's job / Hr+Ro = JKR+??? / Wizarding Plumbing and Muggles Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49705 Dave dmwang wrote: << Do we know from canon what job, if any, Lucius Malfoy has? >> We don't know from canon what job Lucius Malfoy has. I believe that the Malfoys have inherited so much wealth over the centuries that managing his investments and playing politics is a full-time job. Peter the Couch Elf wrote: << Jo Rowling has said that Hermione is a character loosely based on herself. As such, it is interesting that she has Hermione becoming attracted to Ron rather than Harry. >> And she has introduced the public, on a TV show, to her childhood friend, Sean something, on whom she said Ron is based. She reminisces of them hanging out together without ever hinting at any romance between them... She reveals so much about herself to the public that it leads me to speculate about things which are none of my beeswax. Dan Tobias wrote: << Actually, they also adopted indoor plumbing... note all the references to bathrooms at Hogwarts. >> I always say, in the Potterverse, the wizarding folk had indoor plumbing with hot and cold running water and flush toilets ever since Atlantis. All the various Muggles who 'invented' indoor plumbing (Minoans, Romans, 18th century, etc) were really trying to copy what they had seen when a guest in a wizarding home. Also, the wizarding folk had elaborate castles ever since Atlantis, so it doesn't matter that Muggle 'castles' were IIRC wooden huts surrounded by a muddy ditch and a picket fence at the time of the Founders. I personally don't believe in Atlantis or primordial matriarchies, but I also don't believe in flying carpets or House Elves. A large part of the gimmick of the Potterverse is that many things which are familiar folklore or fantasy motifs which every reader *knows* aren't real, *are* real (altho' often garbled) in the Potterverse. So I think I'm tremendously amusing to add Atlantis and primordial matriarchies to the list of things that Muggles are too stupid to believe in. About Potterverse wizarding folk having had late twentieth century indoor plumbing and Renaissance 'replica' castles since back before Atlantis sank. They didn't need to know any plumbing, hydraulics, metallurgy, stonecarving, or architecture because they made their bathrooms and castles by MAGIC! However, Muggles who visted wizards and saw the nice things the wizards had, had to invent all that technology in order to imitate the wizarding goodies. The wizarding folk teach their children a lot of self-enhancing falsehoods. For example, they teach their children that the reason to keep magic secret from Muggles is to avoid being pestered by Muggles wanting favors (and Hagrid, not having completed his education, still believes that), when in reality the wizarding folk went into hiding because they were scared of the Muggles attacking them. When it comes to Magical History, I have more faith in Professor Binns's accuracy than in Hagrid's. In CoS, Binns said: "You all know, of course, that Hogwarts was founded over a thousand years ago - the precise date is uncertain - by the four greatest witches and wizards of the age. The four school Houses are named after them: Godric Gryffindor, Helga Hufflepuff, Rowena Ravenclaw, and Salazar Slytherin. They built this castle together, far from prying Muggle eyes, for it was an age when magic was feared by common people, and witches and wizards suffered much persecution." Let me repeat: "witches and wizards suffered much persecution." Another example is that they teach their children that Muggles use technology to imitate what wizards do by magic. Technology probably *started* that way, Muggles trying to figure out how to make bathrooms and castles and swords like the wizards had ... this may have remained true up to the Steam Age, with Muggles inventing horseless carriages to imitate the horseless carriages that carry students from Hogsmeade Station to Hogwarts, inventing railroads to imitate wizarding self-propelled wagons like at Gringotts, gaslight to imitate the magical self-lighting candles on the wall of wizarding houses ... but by then the discovery and invention of science and technology had become self-propelling themselves, and with Electricity, Muggles went on to invent things that the wizarding folk copy. The Wizarding Wireless Network is obviously an imitation of Muggle radio, because it's named after "wireles", the British Muggle name for radio. The wizarding folk would have no other reason to name it "wireless", because they didn't have a preceeding technology named "wire" (the telegraph). From suzchiles at pobox.com Mon Jan 13 03:33:06 2003 From: suzchiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 19:33:06 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lucius Mafoy's job? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49706 > From: Dave [mailto:dmwang9 at aol.com] > Do we know from canon what job, if any, Lucius Malfoy has? For some > reason, my initial thought was that that he worked for the > Ministry of Magic, but > he's not listed in the HP Lexicon as an MoM official, so I guess > he doesn't. I > think that I assumed he worked there due to the amount of > influence he has > with the Ministry, or else maybe I read a fanfic that put him > there and got it > confused with canon. Like old money in the Muggle world, I seriously doubt if Malfoy has a real job. He's on boards and such, but actually working for a living would be abhorrent to a Malfoy, I believe. Suzanne From firekat482 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 13 02:57:36 2003 From: firekat482 at yahoo.com (firekat482 ) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 02:57:36 -0000 Subject: Snape as past/future spy WAS Re: Question about Snape and Quirrell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49707 bboy_mn wrote: So, Snape was not acting against Voldemort. He was not conciously choosing Dumbledore over Voldemort. He was simply guarding a very dangerous magical artifact from a very dangerous wizard like Quirrel. Of course, it may mean enduring the Cruciatus Curse a few times as penance, but I doubt that Voldie will kill him for that one transgression. just a few thoughts. Now me: Hmmm...What about if we look at this from a different angle? You say Snape was not conciously choosing Dumbledore over Voldemort - that in effect, it would be possible for him to go back to Voldemort because he could always claim that he had no idea that Quirrel was doing Voldie's dirty work. Earlier you also said that within the Death Eater "community" no DE would believe Snape's excuse of spying anymore than they would believe Malfoy's excuse of Imperius. Can we safely assume that Voldemort can be included in that group? That he wouldn't believe those excuses either? Because if we can, it brings up an interesting question (at least for me - maybe this has already been discussed. Please forgive me if it has). If Voldemort believes Snape's excuse to be false, then why doesn't he ever bring Snape into his confidence? I mean, aren't two heads better than one? Wouldn't it have made sense for him to find another ally within Hogwarts aside from Quirrel? Snape was constantly getting in Quirrel/Voldemort's way in Harry's first year. Why didn't Quirrel pull him (Snape) off into an empty room sometime, yank off his turban, and turn around so Voldie could tell Snape to be a good DE and knock it off? Basically, my question is this: How can Snape (and Dumbledore, for that matter) feel confident that Voldemort will accept Snape into the fold again, when he didn't even seek Snape's help while looking for the S/P Stone - at a time when he was very weak and needed all the help he could get? IMHO, I don't think Snape can go back and be completly accepted. At the very least, Voldemort *has* to have his suspicions about Snape's loyalty. Personally, I feel strongly that Voldemort knows exactly where Snape stands, and any attempt by Snape to return would mean certain death after a very long torture session. If Snape *does* return as a spy in the following three books, then JKR is going to have to do a lot of explaining (at some point in the last books) about how exactly that was possible. For me there are just to many ways that Voldemort could know that truth about Snape's loyalty. But that's getting totally off track. Anyone care to take a shot at the above question? I'd love to hear more theories. Any excuse to talk about my beloved Potions Master, don't you know. ;) ~Jean, who hopes she did this right, as it is only her second time posting to this group From hodgins at ssi.net Mon Jan 13 03:19:16 2003 From: hodgins at ssi.net (hedge2staxy ) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 03:19:16 -0000 Subject: How would Harry have killed Sirius in PoA? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49708 Here we are--that suspenseful moment in Chapter "Cat, Rat, and Dog" of PoA. Harry has recovered his wand in a scuffle and is now preparing to end Sirius Black's life. A combination of Crookshanks and Lupin, stop us from seeing if Harry would have killed him, but then I started to wonder. How? I guess if you layered enough hexes onto a person you could kill him or the easy Snape way out would be to immobilize Black and let the dementors do the rest. Somehow, though, neither of these meshes with the spirit of the scene and as a 3rd year at Hogwarts, Harry really wouldn't have had the sophistication to do anything more than this, would he? Any theories as to what might have been on the tip of Harry's tongue? Perhaps, we're not supposed to think this far, and the moment is just to convey the depth of Harry's anguish at the loss of his parents. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Jan 13 04:11:20 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 04:11:20 -0000 Subject: How would Harry have killed Sirius in PoA? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49709 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hedge2staxy " wrote: > Here we are--that suspenseful moment in Chapter "Cat, Rat, and Dog" > of PoA. Harry has recovered his wand in a scuffle and is now > preparing to end Sirius Black's life. A combination of Crookshanks > and Lupin, stop us from seeing if Harry would have killed him, but > then I started to wonder. How? > > ...edited... > > hedge2staxy bboy_mn: Harry was angry enought to kill, but he hesitated. Partly for moral reasons, reason of conscience, but partly because the only spell that could have done any real damage he didn't learn until the next book. I think to some extent, he was dazed in his anger. The boiling intent was there but so was the hesitation, and he didn't know why. He wanted to utter a curse to destory this person, but no curse came, because there was not curse there to come. Certainly, jelly-legs, and tickle charm were out. So I think his mind was blank. He had intent by nothing to back it up. Then other people arrive and distractions came, and it was too late. Now in GoF, the Stunning curse or the Repelling? curse to blask solid object apart could have probably done the trick when place right over the heart. So, I think the ulitmate answer is he didn't use a deadly curse because he didn't know any, but in the heat of the moment, it didn't consciously come to him that he didn't know any. Did that make sense? Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From voldemort at tut.by Mon Jan 13 04:25:19 2003 From: voldemort at tut.by (Alexander) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 06:25:19 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizarding Plumbing and Muggles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <983262276.20030113062519@tut.by> No: HPFGUIDX 49710 Greetings! > Catlady wrote: CRPWcwn> ...Also, the wizarding folk had elaborate castles CRPWcwn> ever since Atlantis, so it doesn't matter that CRPWcwn> Muggle 'castles' were IIRC wooden huts surrounded CRPWcwn> by a muddy ditch and a picket fence at the time of CRPWcwn> the Founders. Art of fortification was at very high level during the Middle-Ages, being inherited from the Roman Empire and preserved properly. So when it was required (and when it was possible) Muggles were building quite good and reliable castles... though not "elaborate" for sure. :) CRPWcwn> (...) CRPWcwn> Another example is that they teach their children CRPWcwn> that Muggles use technology to imitate what wizards CRPWcwn> do by magic. Technology probably *started* that CRPWcwn> way, Muggles trying to figure out how to make CRPWcwn> bathrooms and castles and swords like the wizards CRPWcwn> had... Until this moment I can more-or-less agree. As to comes next, though... CRPWcwn> ...this may have remained true up to the Steam Age, CRPWcwn> with Muggles inventing horseless carriages to CRPWcwn> imitate the horseless carriages that carry students CRPWcwn> from Hogsmeade Station to Hogwarts, Veeeeery questionable. Steam machines were invented independently and almost simultaneously in several different places, even though *technological* requirements for making them were already met at the late Roman Empire. CRPWcwn> inventing railroads to imitate wizarding CRPWcwn> self-propelled wagons like at Gringotts, No chance. Muggles had their own wagons in mines, they had no need to imitate anybody. As to the invention of rails and wagons in the mines, one can wonder... CRPWcwn> gaslight to imitate the magical self-lighting CRPWcwn> candles on the wall of wizarding houses ... Do you mean gas is self-lighting? Because to imitate the "self-lighting", one must invent the light switch, not the gaslight, which comes more or less naturally as a *replacement* (not replica!) of candles. CRPWcwn> but by then the discovery and invention of science CRPWcwn> and technology had become self-propelling CRPWcwn> themselves, and with Electricity, Muggles went on CRPWcwn> to invent things that the wizarding folk copy. Only it happened much, much before that. Wizards have copied the steam train for sure, they have also copied Muggle business and governmental practises (latter takes a long time to adopt unless forced), they have copied design (if not function) of indoor plumbing (however little credit I can give to the theory of "Atlantis plumbing", I cannot agree at all that it *looked* the same way). Sincerely yours, Alexander Lomski, Gryffindor/Slytherin crossbreed, great supporter of McGonagall/Crookshanks SHIP. ----- "One must be a complete paranoic to search for a hedgehog on the top of a fir-tree." (P. Shumilov) From voldemort at tut.by Mon Jan 13 04:30:01 2003 From: voldemort at tut.by (Alexander) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 06:30:01 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How would Harry have killed Sirius in PoA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1753543878.20030113063001@tut.by> No: HPFGUIDX 49712 Greetings! > Steve wrote: Sbyc> So, I think the ulitmate answer is he didn't use a Sbyc> deadly curse because he didn't know any, but in the Sbyc> heat of the moment, it didn't consciously come to him Sbyc> that he didn't know any. Sbyc> Did that make sense? Well, when I was 13 and went to school, I could definitely *not* make a machine-gun. Still, I knew enough to make a good sharp dagger. Similarly, I lacked knowledge to make a proper dynamite, but I knew enough to make trinitroglycerine (or how it is called in English, dammit ;). So while 13 year old Harry doesn't know Avada Kedavra, it doesn't mean he knows *no* spells that could kill a person... especially a wandless and defenceless (as Harry thought ;) person. Sincerely yours, Alexander Lomski, Gryffindor/Slytherin crossbreed, great supporter of McGonagall/Crookshanks SHIP. ----- "One must be a complete paranoic to search for a hedgehog on the top of a fir-tree." (P. Shumilov) From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Mon Jan 13 04:37:52 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 23:37:52 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape as past/future spy WAS Re: Question about Snape and... Message-ID: <93.28fcd9a8.2b539ca0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49713 Jean > Basically, my question is this: How can Snape (and Dumbledore, for > that matter) feel confident that Voldemort will accept Snape into > the fold again, when he didn't even seek Snape's help while looking > for the S/P Stone - at a time when he was very weak and needed all > the help he could get? I've pondered this for a while, and here's my take on it: I think Voldemort was suspicious of all the DEs, or would be at least. After all, only two returned to him later on and one of those did so out of fear. If he was uncertain of Snape's loyalty at that point he probably never would take the chance of letting him in on the caper, as it were. He wouldn't want to risk Snape skipping (yes, skipping XP) off to tell Dumbledore. If he was propositioned what would happen? If he said yes and meant it I think it would take away from his character. He's more interested as an evil good guy. If he said yes and didn't really mean it Voldemort would probably know he was lying. And if he said no out right...would Voldemort have Quirrell try and kill him? Or put a memory charm on him? It certainly would be an akward moment. ~Cassie~ "Koko muzukashii ban!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Jan 13 04:51:56 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 04:51:56 -0000 Subject: Snape as past/future spy WAS Re: Question about Snape and Quirrell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49714 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "firekat482 " wrote: > bboy_mn wrote: > > So, Snape was not acting against Voldemort. He was not conciously > choosing Dumbledore over Voldemort. He was simply guarding a very > dangerous magical artifact from a very dangerous wizard like > Quirrel. > > Of course, it may mean enduring the Cruciatus Curse a few times as > penance, but I doubt that Voldie will kill him for that one > transgression. just a few thoughts. > > Now me: (firekat482) > > Hmmm...What about if we look at this from a different angle? You say > Snape was not conciously choosing Dumbledore over Voldemort - that > in effect, it would be possible for him to go back to Voldemort > because he could always claim that he had no idea that Quirrel was > doing Voldie's dirty work. > > Earlier you also said that within the Death Eater "community" no DE > would believe Snape's excuse of spying anymore than they would > believe Malfoy's excuse of Imperius. Can we safely assume that > Voldemort can be included in that group? That he wouldn't believe > those excuses either? > -end this part- bboy_mn: Once again my dramatic license comes back to haunt me. One more violation and the Department of Dramaic Licensing will suspend me. The point wasn't to make an absolute statement of iron clad fact, the point was to compair the fact that all the free Death Eaters had their own little way of getting out of trouble. Ways that everyone quietly assumes was a lie, but can't publically prove. Voldemort doesn't not necessarily approve of Malfoy claiming bewitchment and denying all association with Voldemort. Malfoy swore undying loyalty, and chickened out at the first sign of trouble. So Malfoy is not off scot-free. He betrayed Voldemort. The last minute spy thing of Snape's could be fit into the same framework. It was his last ditch attempt as saving his own hide, just like Malfoy claiming being under the Imperus curse. Now in Voldemort's eyes, the circumstance is not clear. I believe Voldemort refers to Snape as 'the one I BELIEVE has left me forever.... he, of course, will die' (or words to that effect). He did not speak about Snape in harsh ablsolute terms. He in essense said, based on what little information I have, it looks like Snape MIGHT HAVE left me an gone over to the good side, IF he did, then he is a dead man. If he didn't them I going to torture him 'til he pukes, just like I'm going to torture the rest of you idiots. An element of doubt is left by the choice of words, while at the same time, that choice of word by Voldemort makes Snape's case look bad. -bboy_mn-end this part- ~Jean continues: > ... If Voldemort believes Snape's excuse to be false, then why > doesn't he ever bring Snape into his confidence? I mean, aren't two > heads better than one? Wouldn't it have made sense for him to find > another ally within Hogwarts aside from Quirrel? > -end this part- bboy_mn: He doesn't believe Snape's exuse is false, he has an element of uncertainty as described above. You ask why Voldemort-as-Quirrel didn't take Snape into his confidence. Of course, part of the answer is that element of doubt. At the moment he had Quirrel and Quirrel completely under his control. You could also ask why, once he had Quirrel to cart him around, he didn't go to Malfoy, or McNair, or Avery, or Knott for help. Again the answer is that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. He had Quirrel, he had an objective, he had a plan, and considering he really didn't know if he could depend on the loyalty and help of any of the free Death Eaters, he chose to stick with his plan. A plan which seemed adequate at the time. Once again, he didn't could on the poor waif Harry Potter. Very short sighted of him. -bboy_mn-end this part- > ~Jean continues: > > Basically, my question is this: How can Snape (and Dumbledore, for > that matter) feel confident that Voldemort will accept Snape into > the fold again, when he didn't even seek Snape's help while looking > for the S/P Stone - at a time when he was very weak and needed all > the help he could get? > -end this part- bboy_mn: Well, as I said before, the Stone incident can be explained, although an accepted explaination doesn't spare Snape from punishment. How does anyone know that Snape can convince Voldie to take him back? They don't know, but like any good soldier in war, Snape is willing to give his life for the cause. The critical things Snape must convince Voldie about are the things that happened during the last Voldemort war. Not things that happened during the peace that followed. Voldie is going to say, you gave them THIS information, and Snape is going to have to reply, yeah but, I gave you THAT REALLY GOOD information. We gave a little and got a lot. What I gave was inconsequential, what I got was invaluable. That's how the double agent spy game works. At some point you are going to have to give each side some genuine secrets of the other side. -bboy_mn-end this part- > ~Jean continues: > IMHO, I don't think Snape can go back and be completly accepted. At > the very least, Voldemort *has* to have his suspicions about > Snape's loyalty. ... ... ... > -end this part- bboy_mn: Absolutely right! But I think Voldie is going to be suspicious of everyone including the Death Eaters who went to prison. Right now all Voldie can do is promise them the same thing he promises everyone, that they will be rewarded beyond all others. Notice, it's not rewarded beyond their wildest dreams; it's a contest between the Death Eaters to see who can curry the most favor from Voldemort. They don't want to be rewarded, the want to be more rewarded that the other Death Eater; they want to be the 'favorite child'. Back to my point, Voldie can't give anyone anything except bragging rights. How long before those who spend 14 years in a living hell get tire of living on hot air? -bboy_mn-end this part- > ~Jean continues: > If Snape *does* return as a spy in the following three books, then > JKR is going to have to do a lot of explaining (at some point in > the last books) about how exactly that was possible. ... ... ... > -end this part- bboy_mn: AMEN to that! This is going to take a heap of fast talking and explaining, and under the best of circumstances a lot of Cruciatus pain. I firmly believe this is how things are going to go, but other that the generalities, I have no idea how JKR is going to pull it off. -bboy_mn-end this part- > > ~Jean, who hopes she did this right, as it is only her second time bbly_mn closes with: Only you second time? I'd say you did pretty good. Well written, true to the required form, clear, concise, A+ I would say. Can't believe I'm replying to a Snape post. Usually not one of my top subjects. Just a few thoughts bboy_mn From the.gremlin at verizon.net Mon Jan 13 08:47:14 2003 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 2:47:14 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid and Voldermort Message-ID: <20030113084714.GWBZ16306.out005.verizon.net@[127.0.0.1]> No: HPFGUIDX 49715 Tzvi of Brooklyn wrote: "However, Hagrid was the one who pulled Harry out of the wreckage (whatever wreckage there was) and was the first one to see what had happened. Or was he?" This got me thinking: Has anyone ever wondered whether or not *Hagrid* has V-Mort's wand? He was pretty much the first person there, maybe he saw it and stowed it away. Maybe that's what's in his pink umbrella, instead of his own wand? What's the canon for *his* wand being in the umbrella (don't have books, but I know there's references to Hagrid looking guilty about it). -Acire, who wonders if anyone has thought of this before. Would someone like to develop an acronym-type-thingie? I would, but no books, no canon, no ideas. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Mon Jan 13 09:20:43 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 04:20:43 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid and Voldermort Message-ID: <126.1f6ec65a.2b53deeb@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49716 In a message dated 1/13/2003 3:48:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, the.gremlin at verizon.net writes: > This got me thinking: Has anyone ever wondered whether or not *Hagrid* has > V-Mort's wand? He was pretty much the first person there, maybe he saw it > and stowed it away. Maybe that's what's in his pink umbrella, instead of > his own wand? > What's the canon for *his* wand being in the umbrella (don't have books, > but I know there's references to Hagrid looking guilty about it). Hmm..well, unless V-Mort had a different wand when he tried to kill little Harry on that fateful night I don't think Hagrid has his wand. Why? Simple...I don't Dumbledore could explain it a little better: "Priori Incantatem...Harry's and Voldemort's wand share cores. Each of them contains a feather from the tail of the same pheonix....They will not work properly against each other. If, however, the owners of the wands force the wands to do battle...a very rare effect will take place. One of the wands will force the other to regurgitate spells it has preformed-in reverse." (GoF: Ch 36) That couldn't happen if Hagrid had Voldie's ORIGINAL wand. Though...I do wonder if he has his own wand. After all, after seeing what happened with Ron's broken wand you'd think Hagrid's wouldn't work so well. Unless there's a more effective way to put a wand back together than Spell-o-tape? ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bebche2 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 13 04:09:52 2003 From: bebche2 at yahoo.com (Peter Shea) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 20:09:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Rowling's decision to form an attraction between Hermione & Ron rather than Hermione & Harry In-Reply-To: <02db01c2bab0$8f190ff0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: <20030113040952.5187.qmail@web20310.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49717 Penny Linsenmayer wrote: <> I disagree. Harry is a natural source of conversation between Hermione and Krum since Krum and Harry are both Triwizard champions, whereas Ron would be hard to work into the conversation. More importantly, the flashes of resentment Hermione demonstrates towards Ron around the time of the Yule Ball is more indicative of emotional tension between her and Ron. By comparision, there is insufficient evidence of any attraction to Harry by Hermione. Harry is clearly meant to drawn to the still sketchy character of Cho Chang. And Hermione, if interested in Harry, would have made use of the perception of a relationship between them after the Rita Skeeter article. Peter the Couch Elf --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rbroeker at hotmail.com Mon Jan 13 04:12:48 2003 From: rbroeker at hotmail.com (beccafran ) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 04:12:48 -0000 Subject: Snape as past/future spy WAS Re: Question about Snape and Quirrell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49718 Okay, I've been thinking about Snape's task at the end of GoF for a while, and this discussion has convinced me to post them... > > > marephraim: (?) > > > >Was he protecting the Stone as a 'lone ranger' or as part of > > > >Dumbledore's team? Will Book Five *ever* reach the publishers? > > > >-end this part- > > > isiscolo continues: > > > > I think that he was working for the Good Guys and not > > hiding it from Q and V. I just don't see how V could > > possibly still believe Snape to be on his side. > > > > I. > > bboy_mn: > Snape has no way of knowing that Quirrel was working with or for > Voldemort. I guess it's possible that Quirrel told Snape but I doubt > it. I think the story would have gone much differently if Snape knew > Voldemort was in the castle. > > So, from Snape perspective, all he was doing was keeping the stone > away from an marginally competent and obviously corrupt wizard like > Quirrel. I imagine the wizard world is full of greedy people who would > love to get their hands on the Stone. But the alchemist have closely > guard it the Stone and it's secrets for Millenium. Those who > understand it power, and it's power to corrupt; guard it very closely. > Only a very priviledge enlightened few are allowed to know the secret, > and that really how it should be. > > So, Snape was not acting against Voldemort. He was not conciously > choosing Dumbledore over Voldemort. He was simply guarding a very > dangerous magical artifact from a very dangerous wizard like Quirrel. BeccaFran: First- I think it is very telling that Snape went so far out of his way to fight to keep the Stone out of the hands of a thief. He really went above and beyond what most of the teachers did, even going off on his own to stop the thief when everyone else was distracted by the troll. Snape did all this *even though he didn't know it was Voldemort.* If Snape really was evil, it seems to me that he wouldn't care if someone tried to steal the Stone. After all, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend," as they say. The only way DE!Snape would be interested in the theft would be if he knew it *was* LV, in which case Evil!Snape would probably pretend to try to stop the theft, but actually help LV get it. I see Snape's decisive action on behalf of Dumbledore as clear evidence that he has been on that side all along. Second- Why would DE!Snape want to protect Harry from Quirrell at the Quidditch match? He wouldn't! He'd be out to get Harry, just like Quirrel!Mort, and Barty Jr. were. > > isiscolo: > > I read Lord V's "one who has left me forever" comment to mean > > that he *knows* that Snape is no longer a DE. > > -end this part- > > bboy_mn: > It's common knowledge that Snape got out of being prosecuted as a > Death Eater by claiming with the backing of Dumbledore that he was a > spy. All the other Death Eater who got out of trouble, all had their > own lies as excuses for getting out of trouble. They don't believe > Snape was a spy any more that Snape believes that Malfoy was bewitched. BeccaFran: Snape and Mr. Weasley may not believe that Malfoy was bewitched, but clearly many people in the wizarding world (as exemplified by Fudge) do believe it, or at least want very badly to believe it. In terms of Voldemort, he must have known that there were spies in his ranks. I think he is smart enough to put two and two together and accept that Snape was truly a spy. > > isiscolo: > > Why, oh why, does just about everyone assume that Snape *will > > be* a spy in later books? > bboy_mn: > Got a better explaination? What else is Snape going to do? The only > way I can see him being effective in the fight against Voldemort is to > get back in VOldemort's good graces. If not that then what? bboy_mn: > The only options I can see, is that Snape goes back to Voldemort sucks > up a bit, and convinces Voldie that he, Snape, was a double agent > essentially giving genuine but worthless information to Dumbledore > while bringing much more valuable information back to Voldie. If > that's not what he's going to do, then what? What good is he in the > fight, if he's not a spy? I agree with Isiscolo on this one. I know Snape *was* a spy, but I think that his cover is blown now and he can't go back. My idea hinges on the fact that Snape was friends with a "gang of Slytherins who nearly all became Death Eaters." Someone suggested earlier that his friends were those DEs who were killed. I seriously doubt that, personally. What is Snape has some close school friends who are still active DEs? One of them could perhaps have been a spy in the past who was *never unmasked* and who is now going back to active spying. Alternatively, Snape could be talking a previously loyal DE into spying now. After all, in 13 law-abiding years, some of the DEs were bound to lose their taste for murder & mayhem. Any thoughts? BeccaFran From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Mon Jan 13 04:46:37 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 22:46:37 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How would Harry have killed Sirius in PoA? References: <1753543878.20030113063001@tut.by> Message-ID: <3E2244AD.D0D9F421@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49719 Alexander wrote: > > Well, when I was 13 and went to school, I could definitely > *not* make a machine-gun. Still, I knew enough to make a > good sharp dagger. Similarly, I lacked knowledge to make a > proper dynamite, but I knew enough to make trinitroglycerine > (or how it is called in English, dammit ;). So while 13 year > old Harry doesn't know Avada Kedavra, it doesn't mean he > knows *no* spells that could kill a person... especially a > wandless and defenceless (as Harry thought ;) person. > Pointing a wand at someone with intent to kill and no knowledge of a spell to do the job is like pointing an unloaded gun with intent to kill. If I were Sirius and knew that Harry had not learned any dangerous curses yet, I might be tempted to say "What are you going to do? Spank me with your wand?" Sirius however could not be sure what spells Harry knew and even a bad case of Jelly Legs might be enough to make him pause. (I had a bad case of jelly legs once. Inner ear infection. Kept falling over. No fun at all) Jazmyn From dehavensangel at hotmail.com Mon Jan 13 06:37:39 2003 From: dehavensangel at hotmail.com (shinesse ) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 06:37:39 -0000 Subject: If Muggles are unaware of Wizards, why do they agree to send their kids to Wizarding schools? In-Reply-To: <20030112042436.45413.qmail@web20306.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49720 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Peter Shea wrote: > My wife, a shrewd Bulgarian (and a supporter of the Vratsa Vultures Quidditch Team), looked up from reading GoF and posed the following questions: > > If muggles are protected from knowledge of the wizarding world, why do muggle parents (like those of Hermione Granger and Lily Evans Potter) appear to accept so easily the existence of magic? And, more incredibly, why do they agree to the education of their children in wizarding schools where the children are prepared to live in clandestine wizard communities rather than participate in the wider muggle world? I quote Aunt Petunia in PS/SS: > > "...for my mother and father,oh no, it was Lily this and Lily that, they were proud of having a witch in the family." > > Peter the Couch Elf There have been a lot of great posts about this question. I just have a small addition to what has already been said. I myself am a parent. I love my daughter very much. If one day a letter came from a place like Hogwarts I would be very happy. There are several reasons why but the main reason is this: I would want her to have all the opportunities that I never had. I know a lot of other people would probably be apprehensive about sending their child away to Hogwarts. A very strange school that you've never heard of, your child is a witch or a wizard, etc. It's a lot for any person to take in at 1st. Then once the shock wears off I'm sure they would see this as a great opportunity. A chance for their child to do so much more with their life then the parent has ever imagined. Isn't that really ever parents dream? Just to add a small thing to the whole topic. I would be just like Lily and Petunia's parents. The only thing is that I wouldn't make my other child feel any less. That builds years of resentment that can't be taken back. Just look at the way Petunia talks about Lily. It's sad really that the two sisters didn't speak in years. She didn't even have a kind word about her once she found out that Lily was dead. What a shame. ~dehavensangel~ From eloiseherisson at aol.com Mon Jan 13 12:04:38 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 07:04:38 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How would Harry have killed Sirius in PoA? Message-ID: <69.333bda33.2b540556@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49721 bboy_mn: Harry was angry enought to kill, but he hesitated. Partly for moral reasons, reason of conscience, but partly because the only spell that could have done any real damage he didn't learn until the next book. I think to some extent, he was dazed in his anger. > So, I think the ulitmate answer is he didn't use a deadly curse > because he didn't know any, but in the heat of the moment, it didn't > consciously come to him that he didn't know any. > > Did that make sense? Yes. Although, as has been pointed out before, there are potentially lots of ways of killing someone magically and a specific 'killing curse' isn't necessarily the only way. In fact Catlady has listed - oh I don't know - oodles of them in the past. For instance, Harry had witnessed Quirrell conjure ropes to bind him in PS/SS. We don't know if Harry could do that, but if he did, he could, shall we say, have bound Sirius rather *tightly*, particularly in the region of the throat. But another thought. We have seen so many examples of Harry's unintentional magic at times of emotional intesity, particularly of anger; blowing up Aunt Marge inevitably comes to mind. With the rage and heightened emotion he feels towards Sirius, I find it mildly surprising that nothing happened at all. Now before someone points out that all Harry's unintentional magic has been wandless, I know that. But of course, in none of those incidents did he have a wand available. There was a recent thread on the use of wands with no words. That little child at the QWC seems to have been too young to know spells or controllably to use a wand, yet he managed to engorge a slug by poking it with his father's wand. And isn't there an incident somewhere of someone's wand letting out a few sparks apparently indicative of the wielder's anger? < checks> Yes, it's Snape's, as he shouted (looking dranged) at Hermione in the Shrieking Shack (PoA, 264, UK PB). So I do wonder, if it hadn't been for his hesitation, whether Harry *might* truly have inflicted some damage on Sirius, even killed him, as a result of his sheer rage being focussed through the wand in his hand. ~Eloise > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From heidit at netbox.com Mon Jan 13 12:34:15 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 07:34:15 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lucius Mafoy's job? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <017a01c2bb00$1c2b5070$0301a8c0@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 49722 Dave wrote: > > Do we know from canon what job, if any, Lucius Malfoy has? For some > > reason, my initial thought was that that he worked for the > Ministry of > > Magic, but he's not listed in the HP Lexicon as an MoM > official, so I > > guess he doesn't. I > > think that I assumed he worked there due to the amount of > > influence he has > > with the Ministry, or else maybe I read a fanfic that put him > > there and got it > > confused with canon. Possibly not a fanfic, but rather something from WB earlier this year, which has him as a high-functionary-galleon-a-year-type at the Ministry. I will try and find the citation. Suzanne speculated: > Like old money in the Muggle world, I seriously doubt if > Malfoy has a real job. He's on boards and such, but actually > working for a living would be abhorrent to a Malfoy, I believe. > Depends on what the working is, IMHO. Yes, a lot of old monied people need to spend their "work" time managing their investments, but it's also possible that he owns the Daily Prophet or is otherwise involved with it (hence, an explanation for why Draco always has the paper first). Of course, it's possible that among his investments are monies spent in the muggle world - canon implies that he owns the Riddle house, and wouldn't it be clever if he had a rather large share of Grunnings as well? From pennylin at swbell.net Mon Jan 13 14:20:02 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 08:20:02 -0600 Subject: SHIP: Rowling's decision to form an attraction between Hermione & Ron rather than Hermione & Harry References: Message-ID: <03f701c2bb0e$dc7979c0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 49723 Hi -- pickle jimmy: <<>>>>>>>> If she were talking about Harry and Ron equally, why would Krum draw the inference that she had romantic interest in only one of them? He'd either be equally threatened, or more likely, draw the logical conclusion that she was best friends with two boys from her class. I think the only conclusion to be reached is that she didn't talk about Ron at all or not nearly so much; otherwise, there'd be no reason for Krum to be romantically jealous of Harry because Hermione talked about him all the time. <<<<<>>>>>>> Possible, though I think that Krum's interest in Hermione is genuine. <<>>>>>>> Sorry, but the brother/sister argument can't be used effectively, IMO, unless you're willing to apply it to both pairings. They are all best friends. My perception is that the bickering Ron and Hermione are much more akin to siblings than Harry and Hermione ...... but it's wildly inconsistent to use that as a detraction from either pairing IMO. Peter Shea said: <<>>>> Harry was not being a typical adolescent boy -- it was Ron who made the "we better hurry or we'll end up with a pair of trolls" comment. If Harry had engaged in similar churlish behavior, I've no doubt that Hermione would have reacted the same way to him. And since Ron attacked her with relish (and apparently enjoyment) at the Ball itself, I think her reactions to him were both justified and not at all supportive of an argument that she is attracted to him. <<>>>> Oh yeah? I see a fair bit of evidence actually. As I said, her behavior around Krum is the most telling thing (talking up a boy you're interested in when around other people, probably whilst being unaware that you're even doing it, is pretty classic adolescent girl behavior). Yes, she could have talked up Harry in an attempt to make Krum think there was reason for jealousy as a means of getting him more interested in her ....or less interested in her. But, Hermione doesn't seem the game-playing type to me. Strikes me as far more likely that she was very unaware that she was even doing this (and she would have been horrified if she'd heard the Krum/Harry conversation or been told of it later). She also could barely be bothered to pay attention to Krum, who had just saved her, after the 2nd Task because she was too busy cheering for Harry. She also, from all appearances, spent more time with Harry than with Ron during the Harry/Ron fight (though perhaps this was because Ron had other friends and Harry didn't .... hard to say). These are just off the top of my head. There's a whole thread with tons of H/H arguments over at FictionAlley Park right now. Oh, and on Cho -- yes, he was clearly interested in Cho in GoF. We're talking about Hermione's interest in one of the boys; not who is or isn't interested in her in return. But, in any case, Harry certainly registered her appearance at the Ball though, didn't he? "A beautiful girl Harry didn't know." Later.......his jaw dropped when he realized who the beautiful girl was. He clearly processes that she's a girl and an attractive one. Doesn't make him interested in her romantically at that time, but it clearly doesn't rule that out as possibility later. Side note: I can't imagine that Harry will still be interested in Cho (or that she would ever return the interest) after GoF. <<<>>> To do what exactly? Draw attention to a crush I'd bet money she has no desire to reveal to anyone? She knows Harry isn't interested in her (and that Ron is). Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Mon Jan 13 14:52:30 2003 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (edisbevan ) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 14:52:30 -0000 Subject: If Muggles are unaware of Wizards, why do they agree to send their kids to Wizarding schools? In-Reply-To: <20030112181425.23651.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49724 Jeana " wrote: > > I'd guess there are probably plenty of Muggle parents who, when > their children's school letters arrive, figure the whole thing is > a joke and toss them (the letters, not the children) out the > window. In that case, we'd never hear about the "lost students" > whose magical careers were over before they began. I seem to recall a JKR interview a couple of years ago which mentioned something we would discover in book five - a magic pen at Hogwarts that entered a name in a magic ledger every time a magic child was born... anyone else recall this or got a Canon reference? Edis From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Mon Jan 13 15:05:16 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica ) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 15:05:16 -0000 Subject: Rowling's decision to form an attraction between Hermione & Ron rather than Hermione & Harry In-Reply-To: <20030113040952.5187.qmail@web20310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49725 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Peter Shea wrote: > > > Penny Linsenmayer wrote: > > <> > > I disagree. Harry is a natural source of conversation between Hermione and Krum since Krum and Harry are both Triwizard champions, whereas Ron would be hard to work into the conversation. > Perhaps, however, it appears that Viktor and Hermione do talk about other things: "'He's really nice, you know' she said. 'He's not at all like you'd think coming from Durmstrang. He likes it much better here, he told me'" Our Hermione is a very inquisitive girl - you'd think she'd 'pump' him for information about Durmstrang, Bulgaria, his philospy re Elvish Welfare etc. etc. In all these conversations the one 'boy' that keeps on coming up, time and again, (unsolicited by Viktor) is Harry. Not Malfoy (the bane of her existance) not her other best friend Ron (with whom, it's assumed, she spends all her time with when she/they are not with Harry) but Harry. > More importantly, the flashes of resentment Hermione demonstrates towards Ron around the time of the Yule Ball is more indicative of emotional tension between her and Ron. By comparision, there is insufficient evidence of any attraction to Harry by Hermione. > > > I agree that there is emotional tension between Hermione and Ron, however, I'm under the impression that where Ron's feelings were due to an 'obvious' attraction to Hermione, her 'flashes of resentment' had more to do with the impression given off by Ron (albeit inadvertantly) that she was not acceptable Yule Ball consort fodder rather than romantic inclinations in his direction. >Harry is clearly meant to drawn to the still sketchy character of Cho Chang. And Hermione, if interested in Harry, would have made use of the perception of a relationship between them after the Rita >Skeeter article. In one of her many interviews JKR says that in GoF 'they are in love with the wrong people' (paraphrasing). If we use 'jealousy' as a marker for being 'in love' then the pairings in GoF would be Harry-- >Cho, Ron-->Hermione and Viktor-->Hermione. Hermione's feelings are harder to discern. She may be attracted to Viktor and her comment to Harry: "'Oh, no, he's back again, why can't he read on his stupid ship? said Hermione irritable as Viktor Krum slouched in ..' 'Come on, Harry, we'll go back to the common room .. his fan club'll be here in a moment, twittering away ...'" is a kind of latent jealousy or she may be attracted to Ron and her dislike of Fleur/bickering with Ron , as argued by some, is due to jealousy. I don't think that Hermione not making use of the Skeeter article is an indication that she doesn't like Harry, rather that a)she is not, characteristically, *that* calculating/conniving (yet?) and b)she does not (yet) consciously view Harry in a 'romantic' light. ~Erica From heidit at netbox.com Mon Jan 13 15:10:06 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 10:10:06 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: If Muggles are unaware of Wizards, why do they agree to send their kids to Wizarding schools? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01db01c2bb15$dc5a06b0$0301a8c0@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 49726 Jeana " wrote: > > > > I'd guess there are probably plenty of Muggle parents who, when > > their children's school letters arrive, figure the whole thing is > > a joke and toss them (the letters, not the children) out the > > window. In that case, we'd never hear about the "lost students" > > whose magical careers were over before they began. Edis replied: > I seem to recall a JKR interview a couple of years ago which > mentioned something we would discover in book five - a magic pen at > Hogwarts that entered a name in a magic ledger every time a magic > child was born... anyone else recall this or got a Canon reference? > << The Ministry of Magic doesn't find out which children are magic. In Hogwarts there's a magical quill which detects the birth of a magical child, and writes his or her name down in a large parchment book. Every year Professor McGonagall checks the book, and sends owls to the people who are turning 11.>> JKR, http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript1.htm Also, in thinking about this, Jeana, when Harry didn't get his letter and didn't reply, Hogwarts started sending a flurry of letters - more each day. I think it's likely that they don't just roll over if someone doesn't reply, either with a positive or negative, when a letter's been sent - they likely know when the kid hasn't gotten the letter, and they probably do something about it, just like they did with Harry. heidi From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon Jan 13 15:21:37 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr ) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 15:21:37 -0000 Subject: How would Harry have killed Sirius in PoA? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49727 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve " wrote: > Harry was angry enought to kill, but he hesitated. Partly for moral > reasons, reason of conscience, but partly because the only spell that > could have done any real damage he didn't learn until the next book. I > think to some extent, he was dazed in his anger. The boiling intent > was there but so was the hesitation, and he didn't know why. He wanted > to utter a curse to destory this person, but no curse came, because > there was not curse there to come. Certainly, jelly-legs, and tickle > charm were out. So I think his mind was blank. He had intent by > nothing to back it up. Then other people arrive and distractions came, > and it was too late. > > > So, I think the ulitmate answer is he didn't use a deadly curse > because he didn't know any, but in the heat of the moment, it didn't > consciously come to him that he didn't know any. > > Did that make sense? > > Just a few thoughts. > > bboy_mn Okay, I am going to quibble with this. When Harry was standing over Sirius, he certainly seems to have felt that he could kill him. The only thoughts we see in his mind are "do it now, do it now." Even when Crookshanks leaps protectively onto Sirius' chest, Harry only thinks, well, he'll just have to kill the cat, too. We never see him reach the point where he is casting about in his mind for what spell to use. Personally, I believe that the combination of Harry's fury with his innate magical power would have at least ennabled him to render Sirius unconscious so that he could then have throttled him or something. I think the ultimate answer is that Harry has for the first time found himself in a postion to kill the man he thinks has betrayed his mother and father. He is standing over this "traitor" who is unarmed and lying on the floor before him, and Harry has his wand aimed straight at his heart with intent to kill. Unexpectedly, he is suddenly in a battle with himself. He tells himself over and over to kill this man who so deserves to die, but he just can't do it. He comes to the unspoken realization that this would be murder, just to kill Sirius like that, however guilty he may be. Harry has just learned something very important himself -- that killing a defenseless (at that moment) murderer without recourse to the law, is in itself murder. He has internalized this so well, even though his immediate reaction to the arrival of Lupin is to be disappointed in not having avenged his parents' deaths, that he is able to recognize the need to stop the murder of Pettigrew. He is now able to intuitively realize that, "-- I don't reckon my dad would have wanted them to become killers -- just for you [Pettigrew]." And later on, Dumbledore, who knew James quite well, was able to confirm to Harry that his instincts were right, even though they resulted in the opportunity for Pettigrew to escape. Harry of course now knows that the man he might have killed is his godfather and still truly his father's best friend. I'm not sure whether he yet believes Dumbledore that it was best that he prevented Wormtail's death. However, I think we can be sure that in VWII, if anyone is going to authorize the use of unforgivable curses against Death Eaters, Harry will be with Dumbledore in refraining from ever doing so. In fact, I sincerely believe he will never learn how to cast any of them. Wow, I took this pretty far, didn't I? But in this post, at least, I feel very sure of my conclusions. Annemehr From sevothtarte at gmx.net Mon Jan 13 11:04:56 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 12:04:56 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How would Harry have killed Sirius in PoA? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49728 >bboy_mn: >Now in GoF, the Stunning curse or the Repelling? curse to blask solid >object apart could have probably done the trick when place right over >the heart. Yes, Stupefy probably is able to kill a man under certain circumstances. Remember Crouch Jr. saying "I waited. I could not hurt Potter, my master needed him. Potter ran to get Dumbledore. I stunned Krum. I killed my father." (GoF, Veritaserum). Apparently he didn't even dare to stun Harry for it might 'hurt' him, even though Barty is good enough a wizard and also calm enough to be able to control the force of the spell (remember the simple disarmings we've seen in contrast to Snape disarming Lockhart, the intent matters). So stunning by magic might be dangerous to children, elderly or other physically weak people. Apparently no one told this HRH before Harry started practising the Stupefy spell with Ron as his target. Now remember those twenty stunning spells shot at HRH by the Ministry wizards in GoF, The Dark Mark. The idea of them all hitting the kid's surely was at least part of the reason why Arthur was "terrified". Torsten From etyksm at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jan 13 13:07:25 2003 From: etyksm at yahoo.co.uk (etyksm ) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:07:25 -0000 Subject: Arithmancy In-Reply-To: <001e01c2b859$d8a446c0$0100a8c0@xyrael> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49729 This is my First posting so please be kind! I thought that Hermione's main aversion to divination was that it was a subject that couldn't be "studied" e.g. by books. If arithmancy is based on Maths or some other "logical" or "derived Logical" means then I can see HG enjoying it as it is likely to be a subject that can be "learnt" or "studied" unlike Divination. I don't believe that it is the outcome of divination that HG dislikes, I think it is more the process and possibly the inaccuracy of it. I must admit it is some time since I re-read books 3 and 4 since having lent them to my parents who have now packed them among the many boxes they have for moving house :-( Thanks Sandra --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Scott Northrup" wrote: > Felinia: > > I haven't looked up the dictionary definition of "arithmancy" (because > I've > > seen the word before) and I was wondering if JKR's intent might not be > more > > like a more sophisticated vision of numerology, rather than mathematics as > > we understand it, a tool for quantum physics as in time travel as you > > postulate here, for example. > > Me: > > For whatever, reason, I hadn't thought to look it up, or google it. But the > most common definition is "divination by numbers" or a pre-cursor to > Numerology (which I guess is the same thing?). I wonder if JKR means it as > something different though, because if it was "divination by numbers" A) I > would think it would just be part of the Divination course, and B) it > probably wouldn't be Hermione's favorite subject. Personally, I think it > would be much cooler if it was some form of magical mathematics and not just > one more way to try and predict the future. But that's just me. :D > > -Scott > > PS I also found a rather interesting site while googling. Not totally > relevant to anything, but here it is anyway. > http://www.sorcererscompanion.net/arithmancy.html From sevothtarte at gmx.net Mon Jan 13 15:30:02 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 16:30:02 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Rowling's decision to form an attraction between Hermione & Ron rather than Hermione & Harry In-Reply-To: <03f701c2bb0e$dc7979c0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: <09IVS4Z13YZTDBWVTQGBU52RQLHUO.3e22db7a@tk> No: HPFGUIDX 49730 Penny: >If she were talking about Harry and Ron equally, why would Krum draw the >inference that she had romantic interest in only one of them? He'd either be equally >threatened, or more likely, draw the logical conclusion that she was best friends with >two boys from her class. You forgot the important thing, Rita's article. Krum surely got to read it - or rather, heard it read aloud several times since he's at the Slytherin table - and after that it's no surprise he's more worried about Harry than about Ron. Even Molly fell for it, why shouldn't Krum? I think for now it's obvious that Ron's very interested in Hermione, even if he doesn't realize it. He always was very eager to defend Hermione, think of all the times he leapt to her defense when the Slytherins or Snape bullied her. Without Krum, it would have taken him longer to show it as strongly as he did during and after the Yule Ball - he always took Hermione's presence and attention for granted, but now there's the threat someone might take her away from him. Hermione is jealous, too, but not as much he is. So Ron's out for Hermione and Harry for Cho, but why shouldn't that change? Harry doesn't know her at all, she's just pretty and nice so far, he might make up his mind once he knows her better. And Ron might figure out if he loves Hermione or if she's just a very good friend he's afraid of losing. Ah, the fun of puberty if one's not the one going through it. ^^ Torsten From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Mon Jan 13 16:42:44 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David ) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 16:42:44 -0000 Subject: SHIP: That ol' H/H argument In-Reply-To: <039701c2aaf8$b28e5980$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49731 Penny wrote, on Christmas Eve: > As for Harry and Hermione, I like them as a pair based on reasonable extrapolations of their future selves (not that I wouldn't cheer for a canon-based H/H relationship ..... but again, it would make it that much less likely to be the "real thing"). then, yesterday: > More importantly, I think the fact that Krum is bothered enough by Hermione's involvement with Harry to question Harry about their relationship (she talks about Harry "all the time" around Krum) to be perhaps the most telling piece of evidence that it's Harry she likes, rather than Ron. So that's a bad thing for H/H, right? ;-) Seriously, I think the H/H case *is* at its strongest with the extrapolation argument above. Resolutely put aside all school- based romance, except as evidence of *character*, not attraction, project the characters forward to adulthood, and make a judgement based on compatibility, life goals, etc, as you imagine them then to be. Don't muddy the pool with evidence of current attraction. That leaves you free to torpedo all R/H arguments based on current attraction either way. But if you *do* want to make it happen within (expected future) canon, then I feel that the strongest evidence ought not to be from Krum but the interactions of the leading characters themselves, however ambiguous they may be. Krum's H/H evidence seems strong, but I think it is weaker than it looks. There are just so many uncertainties. If Hermione talked as much about Ron as Harry, would Krum mention this? He seeks from Harry the reassurance that Harry is able to give: no good mentioning Ron. If Hermione favours one of the boys, which one would she talk about more? If Krum is aware of Harry as a rival through the Triwizard Tournament as well as his flying, would that bias his ability to note who Hermione most talks about? Given that Hermione and Ron's extracurricular lives revolve to a large extent around Harry anyway, how do we factor that in? The crucial thing is that we know that Krum has to an extent got it wrong, in that he suspects an active relationship, when at most Hermione has feelings for Harry. So we are reduced to reconstructing what would have been his thought processes and what led to them. That he approaches Harry shows his reserve and felt incomprehension in dealing with Hermione - a telling observation which ultimately leads us back to the conclusion that they are all a bit young for us to deduce anything much. David From kethlenda at yahoo.com Mon Jan 13 18:56:38 2003 From: kethlenda at yahoo.com (Kelly L. ) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 18:56:38 -0000 Subject: How would Harry have killed Sirius in PoA? In-Reply-To: <1753543878.20030113063001@tut.by> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49732 Alexander wrote: Well, when I was 13 and went to school, I could definitely > *not* make a machine-gun. Still, I knew enough to make a > good sharp dagger. Similarly, I lacked knowledge to make a > proper dynamite, but I knew enough to make trinitroglycerine > (or how it is called in English, dammit ;). So while 13 year > old Harry doesn't know Avada Kedavra, it doesn't mean he > knows *no* spells that could kill a person... especially a > wandless and defenceless (as Harry thought ;) person. Me: And it's even possible that Harry had at least heard of AK. Hermione knew of it, and knew that it was one of the three Unforgivables. Admittedly, Hermione usually knows more history, etc., than the others. But it's possible that Harry had heard of a curse that killed people and was willing to make an attempt to cast it. We don't know that he had never heard of it before the DADA class in GoF, we just know that he didn't realize his parents had been killed with it. Kelly L. From kethlenda at yahoo.com Mon Jan 13 19:01:29 2003 From: kethlenda at yahoo.com (Kelly L. ) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 19:01:29 -0000 Subject: Hagrid and Voldermort In-Reply-To: <20030113084714.GWBZ16306.out005.verizon.net@[127.0.0.1]> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49733 Acire wrote: This got me thinking: Has anyone ever wondered whether or not *Hagrid* has V-Mort's wand? He was pretty much the first person there, maybe he saw it and stowed it away. Maybe that's what's in his pink umbrella, instead of his own wand? > What's the canon for *his* wand being in the umbrella (don't have books, but I know there's references to Hagrid looking guilty about it). Me: And when Scabbers/Pettigrew was found, he was in Hagrid's hut. Why on earth would he be there unless he had some reason to be? I think someone else on the list speculated that Pettigrew was there to steal the wand back for Voldemort. It has to have gotten back to him somehow; otherwise, he wouldn't have had his own (Fawkes-feathered) wand after all these years and transformations. Kelly L. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Jan 13 19:13:41 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 19:13:41 -0000 Subject: Snape as past/future spy WAS Re: Question about Snape and Quirrell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49734 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "beccafran " wrote: > Okay, I've been thinking about Snape's task at the end of GoF for a > while, and this discussion has convinced me to post them... > ...MS... ...MASSIVE EDIT.... > Alternatively, Snape could be talking a previously loyal DE into > spying now. After all, in 13 law-abiding years, some of the DEs were > bound to lose their taste for murder & mayhem. > > Any thoughts? > > BeccaFran bboy_mn: I still hold to my belief, but your idea is pretty good. Instead of being a spy, Snape is a contact for a DE Spy who's cover was never blown. Or as you imply, he may know DE's who have a very comfortable, stable, and finacially lucrative life right now. They have to go back to Voldie out of fear of death, but they might be persuaded to spy against him in order to preserve their now comfortable lives. That's actually a good idea. I'm still leaning in my own direction, but now, based on what you said, I have some doubt. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn I could live with that. From dmwang9 at aol.com Mon Jan 13 18:25:32 2003 From: dmwang9 at aol.com (Dave ) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 18:25:32 -0000 Subject: Lucius Mafoy's job? In-Reply-To: <017a01c2bb00$1c2b5070$0301a8c0@Frodo> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49735 Heidi wrote: >Of course, it's possible that among his investments are monies > spent in the muggle world - canon implies that he owns the Riddle house, > and wouldn't it be clever if he had a rather large share of Grunnings as > well? Where does canon imply that Lucius owns the Riddle house? I'm not doubting Heidi (she's far too much of an HP goddess to doubt her ^_^), but I've never heard this theory before. As for the Malfoys owning part of Grunnings, I *like* it. (Is that a plot bunny I see growing over there?) Of course, people might wonder if a Muggle-hater like Lucius would ever deign to have anything to do with a Muggle business, but I think he would put aside his personal animosity for a chance to fiddle in some devious way with Harry's relatives. -- Dave From rachelwp at attbi.com Mon Jan 13 19:23:05 2003 From: rachelwp at attbi.com (rachelwp at attbi.com) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 19:23:05 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid and Voldermort Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49736 Acire wrote: Has anyone ever wondered whether or not *Hagrid* has V-Mort's wand? He was pretty much the first person there, maybe he saw it and stowed it away. The Kelly L. Responded: And when Scabbers/Pettigrew was found, he was in Hagrid's hut. Why on earth would he be there unless he had some reason to be? I think someone else on the list speculated that Pettigrew was there to steal the wand back for Voldemort. It has to have gotten back to him somehow; otherwise, he wouldn't have had his own (Fawkes-feathered) wand after all these years and transformations. Now Me: I think this is a really good speculation. This also provides a good reason for the possible death of Hagrid in Book 5. What if Hagrid dies while Voldemort is trying to get his wand back? Forgive me if this has already been suggested! -rachelwp From isis at windom.netrack.net Mon Jan 13 19:47:31 2003 From: isis at windom.netrack.net (isiscolo ) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 19:47:31 -0000 Subject: Snape as past/future spy WAS Re: Question about Snape and Quirrell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49737 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "firekat482 " wrote: > Basically, my question is this: How can Snape (and Dumbledore, for > that matter) feel confident that Voldemort will accept Snape into > the fold again, when he didn't even seek Snape's help while looking > for the S/P Stone - at a time when he was very weak and needed all > the help he could get? > > IMHO, I don't think Snape can go back and be completly accepted. At > the very least, Voldemort *has* to have his suspicions about > Snape's loyalty. Personally, I feel strongly that Voldemort knows > exactly where Snape stands, and any attempt by Snape to return would > mean certain death after a very long torture session. Exactly my point. I'd also like to add that Snape has convinced Dumbledore of his loyalty and return to the light. Voldemort is scared of Dumbledore (or at least respects his power) and will be unlikely to believe that Snape could have fooled Dumbledore. This also argues strongly against the evil!Snape scenario, as I can't imagine Snape fooling him either! > If Snape *does* return as a spy in the following three books, then > JKR is going to have to do a lot of explaining (at some point in > the last books) about how exactly that was possible. I don't think that's going to happen, partly because in GoF (the pensieve scene) Dumbledore specifically says that Snape had been a spy for the good side. I just can't see Voldemort as being that credulous. It's been done, it's not going to fly again, despite Harry's wondering about it in the last few pages, which I think is misdirection rather than foreshadowing, and a way to show how Harry is still not completely trusting of Snape's motives. (Yeah, I could be wrong, in which case I will join the throng demanding a plausible explanation). As to Steve who says, "well, what use will he be, then?", don't forget that he is a powerful wizard, talented and highly knowlegeable in arcane potions-making, and that he knows and understands many of the bad guys. The polyjuice-and-spy scenario is a possibility, since Snape would have the knowledge of how to behave correctly among the DEs. In fact, now that I think about it, I really like this idea. I. slash and hp fanfic natterings: www.livejournal.com/users/isiscolo From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jan 13 20:02:25 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 20:02:25 -0000 Subject: Rowling's decision to form an attraction between Hermione & Ron rather than In-Reply-To: <02db01c2bab0$8f190ff0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49738 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Penny Linsenmayer wrote: > > I disagree that Hermione is attracted to Ron. IMHO, she's attracted to Harry, which will cause no end of trouble within the Trio when Ron figures out why she won't go out with him. > and in 49723 >Draw attention to a crush I'd bet money she has no desire to reveal to anyone? < But won't it cause even more trouble if Hermione has a crush on Harry but at the same time is developing serious feelings for Ron? I think more relevant to the question of how Rowling made her decision is that Ron and Harry are different types of hero. Harry's battles are epic--Voldemort is superhuman even by wizarding standards. Epic heroes do not usually need to woo their loves.There's no question of Penelope falling for one of the suitors. Beowulf doesn't marry at all. Lancelot, not an epic hero, is found unworthy of The Grail. The problem of getting someone to fall in love with you simply can't be dealt with on the same scale as defeating cosmic evil. This usually means the epic heroine is left to cheer, or scream, from the sidelines. That would be a terrible waste of Hermione. Ron is more the chivalric hero. In fact he is a knight in the chess game. His antagonists are not more supernatural than he is--Krum and Draco are above him in wealth and status but not in kind. Significantly, they have both expressed more interest in Hermione as a girl than Harry has. Ron has indeed behaved churlishly so far. Chivalric heroes often do. Part of their quest is learning to behave according to the station they aspire to achieve. While Harry may complicate the H/R romance, as Luke complicates things between Han and Leia, or Arthur complicates the relationship between Lancelot and Guenevere, I do not think any romantic relationship between him and Hermione will last. Pippin From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 13 20:33:11 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 12:33:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid and Voldermort Message-ID: <20030113203311.93735.qmail@web40503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49739 > I think this is a really good speculation. This > also provides a good reason > for the possible death of Hagrid in Book 5. What if > Hagrid dies while > Voldemort is trying to get his wand back? Forgive me > if this has already been > suggested! > > -rachelwp One problem with this: Voldemort *does* have his wand back. The "priori incantem" that occured in the graveyard and the end of GoF only happened because it was Harry's wand v. Voldemort's wand with the common core-one of Fawkes' tail feathers. Then, when Harry is asking for an explanation of this, Dumbledore tells him that since the wands are "brothers" they will not work correctly against each other. So, if Hagrid ever had Voldemort's wand, someone got it back to Voldemort. ~Kathryn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From kethlenda at yahoo.com Mon Jan 13 20:52:49 2003 From: kethlenda at yahoo.com (Kelly L. ) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 20:52:49 -0000 Subject: Hagrid and Voldemort/Where was Voldy's wand? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49740 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rachelwp at a... wrote: > I think this is a really good speculation. This also provides a good reason > for the possible death of Hagrid in Book 5. What if Hagrid dies while > Voldemort is trying to get his wand back? Forgive me if this has already been > suggested! > > -rachelwp Kelly L. again: Thing is, I think Voldemort already has his wand back. Otherwise, the wand he used in the graveyard would not have locked up with Harry's in the way that it did. He must have had his old wand, his Fawkes-feather wand, by then. What I think is that Hagrid had it up until the end of PoA. Pettigrew had three years to figure this out--he saw it lying around, perhaps, on one of Ron's many visits to Hagrid's hut. When he pretended to have been eaten by Crookshanks, he went to Hagrid's hut to look for the wand. That's why he was found there just before all the trouble broke out. He wasn't able to steal the wand then, because H/R/H found him. When he escaped next, after he had been revealed by Lupin and Sirius, he went *back* to Hagrid's hut, got away with stealing the wand this time, and returned it to Lord Voldemort. Or at least that's what I think happened, IMHO. :) Kelly L. From heidit at netbox.com Mon Jan 13 20:53:23 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 15:53:23 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lucius Mafoy's job? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <024901c2bb45$d25182d0$0301a8c0@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 49741 I wrote: > >Of course, it's possible that among his investments are > monies spent > >in the muggle world - canon implies that he owns the Riddle > house, and > >wouldn't it be clever if he had a rather large share of > Grunnings as > >well? > Dave replied: > > Where does canon imply that Lucius owns the Riddle house? Blush, blush, Dave. The implication is in this paragraph: <> From kethlenda at yahoo.com Mon Jan 13 20:57:32 2003 From: kethlenda at yahoo.com (Kelly L. ) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 20:57:32 -0000 Subject: Polyjuiced!Snape as a spy in Voldemort's camp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49742 isiscolo wrote: As to Steve who says, "well, what use will he be, then?", > don't forget that he is a powerful wizard, talented and > highly knowlegeable in arcane potions-making, and that he > knows and understands many of the bad guys. The > polyjuice-and-spy scenario is a possibility, since Snape > would have the knowledge of how to behave correctly among the DEs. > In fact, now that I think about it, I really like this idea. Me: Ooooh! What if he goes back and pretends to be Barty Crouch Jr.? Unless Fudge reports directly to Voldemort (which could be the case, I admit, though I'm inclined to think he's a more mundane sort of evil), Voldemort doesn't know Barty's been Kissed. And now Snape knows Barty's whole life story, and also that Barty is on good terms with the Dark Lord because of his role in getting Harry to the graveyard. Kelly L. From mdemeran at hotmail.com Mon Jan 13 21:07:21 2003 From: mdemeran at hotmail.com (Meg Demeranville) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 15:07:21 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lucius Mafoy's job? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49743 Heidi wrote: wouldn't it be clever if he had a rather large share of Grunnings as well? Dave replied: As for the Malfoys owning part of Grunnings, I *like* it. (Is that a plot bunny I see growing over there?) Of course, people might wonder if a Muggle-hater like Lucius would ever deign to have anything to do with a Muggle business, but I think he would put aside his personal animosity for a chance to fiddle in some devious way with Harry's relatives. In a TBAY post in November, I proposed the following: DUH, TIME'S UP, SCALPELS DOWN (Dursleys use Harry's Trustfund In Making Extravagant Surprises, Useful Profiting, So Caring About Large Payouts Even Like Spending Donations of Wizard Nationals) wherein I theorized that a large share of the Dursley's apparent spare cash to provide for Dudley came from money provided by wizards for Harry. The theory further went on that Uncle Vernon has been selling drills and drill bits to the wizarding world. It was explained as follows: "Simple. We know that Gringott's vaults are underneath London. We know that Uncle Vernon sells drill and drill bits. We know that the MOM wasn't too worried when the Mason's saw the owls. What if Uncle Vernon is selling drills and drill bits to the Wizarding World as well as the regular world? We already know that wizards don't mind talking to him, even in the very first book, before he takes Harry in. That's where all of Uncle Vernon's money is coming from. He is extorting the wizards. Charging them extra for drills. Especially since they don't know the pounds to Galleons rate." To explain this a little better, Uncle Vernon is not above making a little extra money at someone's expense. And what better way than to extort the people who have stuck him with this "horrible freak" of a nephew. And conversely, what better way to keep tabs on Harry than to develop a business relationship with his uncle. The MoM could have easily set up this arrangement for the purpose of protecting Harry. And given how well connected Lucius seems to be, he could have easily gotten this information. And used it to his own ends by purchasing shares of the company. What better way to stay in Voldemort's inner circle than to have access to Uncle Vernon financially. "Slippery fellow" indeed. -- Meg (who really should be memorizing amino acids at the moment) Text taken from post 46654 -- 11/15/02 -- (TBAY) Trustfund Harry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jan 13 21:48:52 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 21:48:52 -0000 Subject: Polyjuiced!Snape as a spy in Voldemort's camp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49744 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly L. " wrote: The > > polyjuice-and-spy scenario is a possibility, since Snape > > would have the knowledge of how to behave correctly among > the DEs. > > In fact, now that I think about it, I really like this idea. > > Me: > Ooooh! What if he goes back and pretends to be Barty Crouch > Jr.? This can't have been the plan that Dumbledore and Snape had "prepared" , because they didn't know that Barty Crouch Jr. was going to be kissed. Voldemort warns Peter at the beginning of GoF that the Ministry has ways of checking identities. Surely the same ways are available to Voldemort. Having used the polyjuice ploy himself, he will be wary of somebody using it on him. It would be safer for Snape to go back as himself and offer to resume his duties as Voldemort's double agent than to be caught entering Voldemort's camp in disguise. Even if Voldemort doesn't believe Snape is loyal to him, it would be useful to pretend that he does so that he can feed misinformation back to Dumbledore. Pippin From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Mon Jan 13 22:56:11 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David ) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 22:56:11 -0000 Subject: Lucius Mafoy's job? - glancingly TBAY In-Reply-To: <024901c2bb45$d25182d0$0301a8c0@Frodo> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49745 Dave: > > > > Where does canon imply that Lucius owns the Riddle house? Heidi: > The implication is in this paragraph: > < there nor put it to any use; they said in the village that he kept it > for "tax reasons," though nobody was very clear what these might be. The > wealthy owner continued to pay Frank to do the gardening, however. Frank > was nearing his seventy-seventh birthday now, very deaf, his bad leg > stiffer than ever, but could be seen pottering around the flower beds in > fine weather, even though the weeds were starting to creep up on him, > try as he might to suppress them. >> Now me, a different Dave: How does this imply Malfoy is the owner? Some kinds of genre expectation would say that if you have an unidentified rich person in your story, and an identified one, they are the same person: is that all it is? Or am I missing something? The question has significant implications, since if it is Malfoy, it probably implies he has remained loyal to Voldemort, and therefore there is a degree of deception going on in the graveyard scene, and therefore that Voldemort thinks there is a chance Harry will escape, and hence into Pip's whole Spying Game/MAGICDISHWASHER scenario. See www.hpfgu.org.uk/hypotheticalley for details David From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Jan 13 23:07:48 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 23:07:48 -0000 Subject: Lucius Mafoy's job? - glancingly TBAY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49746 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David " wrote: > Dave: > > > > > > Where does canon imply that Lucius owns the Riddle house? > > Heidi: > > > The implication is in this paragraph: > > "The wealthy man who owned the Riddle House these days neither > > lived there nor put it to any use; they said in the village that > > he kept it for "tax reasons," though nobody was very clear what > > these might be. The wealthy owner continued to pay Frank ... " > - - - - - - - > Now me, a different Dave: > > How does this imply Malfoy is the owner? > > ...edited... > > David bboy_mn: In the never ending desolate void between books, this has been discussed before, and the concensus seems to be - (in no particular order) a.) Lucius Malfoy 2.) Dumbledore c.) no one of any significants I agree wholeheartedly. It is absolutely one of these three.... unless... hummmm.... maybe Sirius owns it.... hummmm.... then again maybe James Potter owned it and unknown to Harry, it part of his parents estate. That'd be cool. Okay, FIVE then. It's one of those five. Absolutely.... unless.... hummmm..... bboy_mn From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Tue Jan 14 00:01:47 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius ) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 00:01:47 -0000 Subject: The Shops Are on Diagon (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49747 The Shops Are on Diagon (PS/SS, Chap. 5) To the tune of The Heat is on in Saigon from the musical Miss Saigon Hear a MIDI at: http://www.broadwaymidi.com/shows/miss_saigon.html Dedicated to Pippin THE SCENE: Diagon Alley. HARRY, escorted by HAGRID, gets his first in- depth look at the Wizarding World while shopping for school supplies HARRY, HAGRID & CHORUS The shops are on Diagon You simply tap on the wall We'll get us Sickles, Knuts and Galleons A new dimension I/you spy, my/ your attention enthralled We're shopping on Diagon Just look at all the cauldrons Potions, parchment, and quills (Segue to a counter inside Gringotts. HAGRID confers with a Goblin to request access to two different vaults) HAGRID Ah, with this key there's no fault Take us to young Harry's vault GOBLIN It seems to be A-OK I'll have a cart appear HAGRID This letter penned by Dumbledore Makes my mission clear CHORUS OF GOBLINS Goblins call shots at Gringotts Rob goblins and you'll get caught Don't take what you've not earned The penalties are severe (Segue to Gringotts' underground railway, as HAGRID and HARRY are piloted by GRIPHOOK over the dizzying track) GRIPHOOK Feel my cart rattle, it has just one speed HAGRID (turning green) This hairpin turning I don't really need Can't we just wait till my illness recedes? (HARRY finds his vault filled with gold and silver coins) GRIPHOOK (to HARRY) It's all yours, gold and silver a heap HAGRID You will not have to live cheap HARRY This would make the Dursleys weep (The cart spirals down to Vault 713) GRIPHOOK Goblins call shots at Gringotts If on this vault you had tapped, then the price would be dear Tonight if someone were trapped, they'd get out in ten years (HAGRID extracts a small grubby-looking package from the otherwise empty vault) HARRY Fabulous jewels aren't kept here in store Just a plain package wrapped up on the floor What is the riddle of these sorcerers? HAGRID Can't tell you, top-secret magic, Harry You've now a pocket of cash That's been retrieved from your stash HARRY & HAGRID We're shopping on Diagon I/You used to always be broke, not a Knut to my/your name Now, for new robes and a cloak, I/you shall be laying claim (Segue to Madame Malkin's. HARRY meets DRACO as they are measured for their robes) DRACO I'm buying robes, I don't care what I pay I want a new broomstick so that I can play Though I'm a first-year I want things my way And I know The home where I'd like to be It's Slyth'rin, my true family HARRY (to himself) Good gravy, who is he? DRACO (seeing Hagrid standing outside) That oaf has got no excuse He's just a drunk in a hut setting fire to his bed You say your parents are dead, but they're not Muggle refuse (Segue to Flourish and Blotts. HARRY complains to HAGRID of his exchange with DRACO) HARRY There is no way that kid and I will get along Didn't anyone ever teach him right from wrong? BOOKSELLERS Waffling, Jigger, Goshawk, and Bagshot Gonna buy all your books here at Flourish and Blotts HAGRID (selecting each book one at a time) Waffling, Jigger, Goshawk, Spore, and Bagshot (Segue to the Apothecary, where HARRY shops for potion ingredients) APOTHECARY MANAGER (spoken) Attention, everyone Bring together your hands At the Apothecary Happy Birthday to Harry! HAGRID & CHORUS OF SHOPPERS (music) The shops are on Diagon Shoppers are out on the prowl Soon the time will come to purchase your wand But first to buy you an owl (Segue to Eeylops Owlery, as HARRY emerges with Hedwig) HAGRID (spoken) And now you own this snowy owl ALL (spoken) On to Chapter Six! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From Malady579 at hotmail.com Tue Jan 14 00:02:02 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody ) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 00:02:02 -0000 Subject: Who owns this silly house? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49748 David said: > The question has significant implications, since if it is Malfoy, it > probably implies he has remained loyal to Voldemort, I did not think there was that much doubt as to whether Malfoy stayed loyal to Voldemort. There may be questions on whether Malfoy is taking orders from him, but loyal? He definitely is that. After the diary plot is revealed, it seems evident he never even lost his footing. So since we know he has at least one of Voldemort's heirlooms and probably more by Dumbledore's hints, why is it too far a stretch to think he would "collect" Voldemort's house as well. Time does pass in the Riddle house's story with a few families living and keeping old Frank Bryce around. Aren't they kind? So then, the last family leaves the house, and out of nowhere, some "wealthy man" comes and buys the place. He bought it without any townsperson seeing who he was, meaning he seems to have never gone and visited it to appraise his purchase, and then leaves it there. A "wealthy man" who has a heart enough to let Bryce stay around and live there. Not like Bryce is that good at what he does, so it really is out of sympathy that the wealthy man lets him stay there and pays him. Would Malfoy have that much heart? He is not letting Bryce stay there because he is a good gardener and fixer. If he just wanted a guy to keep the place acceptable, then he would of fired Bryce and hired some other chap. So then, why keep Bryce? Not like Voldemort commanded Malfoy to do it. Why would Voldemort want Bryce around that long? He killed him pretty fast in the first chapter. No pity there. I might fall for this Malfoy owning the house if he did not also have to pay for Bryce. Is there any reasonable reason he would do that? I can think of none. Bryce can't even keep kids out of the house. To quote the whole of what David said: > The question has significant implications, since if it is Malfoy, it > probably implies he has remained loyal to Voldemort, and therefore > there is a degree of deception going on in the graveyard scene, and > therefore that Voldemort thinks there is a chance Harry will escape, > and hence into Pip's whole Spying Game/MAGICDISHWASHER scenario. That line of logic takes some *huge* leaps I think. Malfoy owning the Riddle house does not "confirm" really anything about MD. But I like the way your mind thinks. ;) Melody From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Tue Jan 14 00:36:49 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 16:36:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Perfidious!Lupin(WAS: Against Evil!Lupin responses (long)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030114003649.63864.qmail@web40513.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49749 Lupin's problem in PoA has its roots in his MWPP activities back when he was a student. If he had followed the rules Dumbledore set then, he wouldn't have had a problem. People have been comparing Lupin's "perfidy," as Pippin puts it, with Harry taking Weasleys' car. I don't think that this is a good comparison. It's so much better to compare it with Harry's behavior in PoA. Lupin's greatest sin is not alerting Dumbledore that SB was an Animagus when he knew how terrible DE's were, and when he knew that SB had killed 12 mUggles with one curse, etc. (I'm using 'knew' in the sense 'thought he knew') Harry knew all that too. He knew that SB betrayed his parents, that he commited 13 terrible murders all in one second, and that he wants to kill Harry. Yet he *does not tell* DD about the map. Moreover, he keeps visiting Hogsmeade, endangering his own life and lives of others (yes, lives of others - SB did kill innocent passersby the last time he wanted to kill off a wizard). Harry's reasons are simple - he wants to have fun with his friends. Incredibly selfish, given the fact that he knows everyone is trying to protect him and others. And *every time* there's a Hogsmeade visit, Mr. Potter forgets everything and heads out to have fun. Now, doesn't that seem familiar? Lupin as a kid only 2 years older than Harry endangers lives of others and his own when he went on escapades with WPP. He says he felt guilty - it's more than Harry can say for himself. So, since nobody accuses Harry of treachery, I don't see how Lupin can be accused of it when we talk about his MWPP adventures in animal form. Lupin's failure to tell DD that Sirius was an Animagus in PoA is more serious, since Lupin at that time is much older than Harry is. But, again, I would expect a 13-year-old child who is very familiar with Voldemort to know what is the right thing to do. So, if we call Lupin perfidious, the same term must be applied to Harry IMO. There are several points that must be mentioned: 1. It was said earlier (by Marina or Snuffles, I think - can't remember exactly) that had Lupin truly believed in Sirius' guilt, he would not have believed Sirius so easily in the Shrieking Shack. I completely agree with this. Moreover, I'll add: regard Lupin's word choice in his confession: he says he *convinced* himself that Sirius was guilty. That doesn't sound like the word one would use if he had really believed it. But, if he had believed it, then 2. As Kristen pointed out, Another thing we do not know is how much effort Lupin put into taking care of the Sirius problem himself. Yes, he did not tell Dumbledore, but in not informing the headmaster, did he take it upon himself to protect Harry from Sirius? He, after all, also knew all the secret entrances even without the Marauder's Map. On the first Hogsmeade visit, he made a point of asking what Harry was doing without Ron and Hermione around him. He is the one who also made Harry take his own safety seriously (after the map incident). Once he had the map, there's no canon telling how much he used it to watch the castle for any sign of Sirius. Also remember that he knows the magic that went into creating the map, so who knows how much castle watching he could do even before he had it. 3. Pippin said: ...most people think that Harry is right [in the way that he thinks about Lupin as opposed to the way Lupin presents himself in his confession] and Lupin is just beating up on himself. People have come up with a whole lot of reasons that Lupin's conscience *might* have been weighing in on both sides of the issue. But these are conjecture. I don't agree. Lupin says in his confession: "...I had led three fellow students into becoming Animagi illegally." Whatever anyone may say, Lupin here is obviously being too hard on himself. How could he lead "the ringleaders of their little gang" into becoming Animagi? IMO you couldn't make James and Sirius do anything against their will, but they clung to any opportunity to break rules. They were only too happy for an excuse to do such cool magic. So, if Lupin beats himself up here, he might do it in other places in his confession - we just don't know too much about what Lupin does during the school year. There are lots of other good points that have been brought up in Lupin's defense in this thread - this isn't a complete summary of what I think on this subject, just a couple of new thoughts that popped into my head lately. Second semester in University started today, so I can't write a long post a day on Perfidious!Lupin as I did for the last couple of days. Devoted Lupin fan, Maria, who doesn't see much sense in continuing this thread as everyone seems to excuse Lupin anyway, except Pippin, who apparently can't be moved (sorry, Pippin... I don't say it in a mean way :) ) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kaesaauralia at cs.com Tue Jan 14 00:43:56 2003 From: kaesaauralia at cs.com (kaesaauralia at cs.com) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 19:43:56 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who owns this silly house? Message-ID: <3f.16801f66.2b54b74c@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49750 Melody said: <> Assuming he owns the house, he has a few options as to what to do with Frank. He could fire him, thus saving money, but supposing Frank got angry? He'd have every right to, especially since no new gardener would be hired in his place. Frank also has a key to the house (and sure, Malfoy could *make* him give it back, but that would necessitate blatant magic useage and nasty loose ends) and could go in and do whatever he likes. I don't know about you, but if I were a minion of Lord Voldemort, I would not want to risk my neck like that for the sake of a little money, even if the Muggle in question doesn't seem like a hooligan. Option two is more Death Eater-ly: Avada Kedavra, or something similar. But people would ask questions, even if Frank isn't particularly popular in the village. More loose ends. (By that scene in GoF, of course, he'd seen way too much to do much else about, and Lord Voldemort is not exactly the sanest person around, is he?) Killing Frank is more trouble than it's worth, monetarily, at least. Option three is, of course, keep paying Frank. He doesn't cause trouble. He doesn't poke around. He's an old guy who can't even get around very well, and a Muggle to boot. Harmless. And I doubt Lucius Malfoy is suffering. :-) ~Kaesa, newbie to the list, who ought to shut up now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stormlass at yahoo.com Mon Jan 13 21:44:15 2003 From: stormlass at yahoo.com (snapesrighthand) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:44:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid and Voldermort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030113214415.59329.qmail@web14509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49751 Kelly L. wrote: And when Scabbers/Pettigrew was found, he was in Hagrid's hut. Why on earth would he be there unless he had some reason to be? I think someone else on the list speculated that Pettigrew was there to steal the wand back for Voldemort. Alex me: I think that is a fantastic theory! Remember in COS how Hagrid was all defensive. He answered the door with a crossbow. He said to the kids, "Oh, I was expectin' somone else." Maybe, he was waiting for Voldemort... as I have theorized before... because he did take Voldemorts wand from the Potters' house. We know he was framed for the crime before and it was Voldemort last time. With the crimes happening again he may have thought he was back. I do not think Hagrid was actually "using" Voldemorts wand. He did appear to give Olivander a guilty look in the wand shop. I think he was keeping it safe. He said in the first book to paraphrase, "keeper of keys and grounds at hogwarts... Dumbledore always gives me important jobs... gettin' you" Remember? Maybe, that was one of his important jobs. Then, there is also the big deal it was that Madame Pomfrey said LVs servant was returning to him. Maybe, LV could come back to strength because Peter brought him his wand. I could go totally off and mention the connection to TLOFR. Could LVs downfall be connected to his wand like the ring is connected to Sauroman? Cassie wrote: "Priori Incantatem...That couldn't happen if Hagrid had Voldie's ORIGINAL wand. Alex me: But what if Hagrid was just holding it from the night he picked up Harry when LV went down at the Potters house? He didn't actually use it. What if in POA Peter Pettigrew was "hiding" in Hagrids house because Hagrid had LVs wand there in his home. Peter wanted to steal LVs wand. Why else would he be in Hagrids hut? Cassie wrote: Though...I do wonder if he has his own wand. After all, after seeing what happened with Ron's broken wand you'd think Hagrid's wouldn't work so well. Alexandra: We know it does not work well. In PS/SS he tries to turn Dudley into a pig and only manages a tail. He uses a crossbow in COS to answer the door not his pink umbrella. So, maybe he knows it does not work well. The pink umbrella is Hagrids wand. I do not doubt that. Rowling gives outrageously obvious clues. It was on the back wall when he engorged the pumpkins... he used it in PS/SS moving the boat, going into Diagon Alley. Alexandra :) ===== It is a tough job, but somone has to do it! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From stormlass at yahoo.com Mon Jan 13 21:58:09 2003 From: stormlass at yahoo.com (snapesrighthand) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:58:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How would Harry have killed Sirius in PoA? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030113215809.2767.qmail@web14502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49752 Alexander wrote: So while 13 year > old Harry doesn't know Avada Kedavra, it doesn't mean he > knows *no* spells that could kill a person... especially a > wandless and defenceless (as Harry thought ;) person. Alexandra writes: I wonder if the voice in Harrys head encouraging him to kill Sirius was Peter Pettigrew using the Imperious Curse. In which case Harry would know the AK curse, because Pettigrew was trying to force him. If Pettigrew knew it Harry would do it if he forced him to. Read the book...pg 343 "Harry gripped his wand convulsively-- Do it now! said a voice in his head." Maybe I am insane with this theory. I do not think so. The description of the Imerious Curse in TGOF and the voice in Harrys head in POA when facing Sirius seem to be the same just shorter. A burst of Imperious. Alexandra __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Tue Jan 14 01:16:39 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 17:16:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Krum, Quidditch, NEWTs, Fleur, and More In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030114011639.16470.qmail@web40509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49753 Many people seem to take for granted two things: that education in Beauxbatons and Durmstrang lasts seven years like in Hogwarts, and that they have OWLs and NEWTs there too. I don't recall this being said in canon. Different Muggle countries have different education systems, and probably the same goes for the WW. Maybe I'm wrong and it's in canon? Then I'd like it if someone showed references to it. Regards, Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Tue Jan 14 01:19:30 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 20:19:30 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid and Voldermort Message-ID: <4DBA9A6B.519B4B79.F1060DB4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49754 > > Alex: > But what if Hagrid was just holding it from the > night he picked up Harry when LV went down at the > Potters house? He didn't actually use it. What if > in POA Peter Pettigrew was "hiding" in Hagrids > house because Hagrid had LVs wand there in his > home. Peter wanted to steal LVs wand. Why else > would he be in Hagrids hut? Cassie: Ahh..I hadn't thought of that possibility before. I agree with you. It's a fantasic theory ^^ But this leads me to other thoughts. If Hagrid did have Voldemort's wand, how did Voldemort get it later on?(Wormtail? Fake!Moody?) And what did Hagrid do when he found it missing? And what's more, how would Wormtail know to look in Hagrid's Hut? Him having Voldemort's wand probably wouldn't be such well know news. Perhaps he heard it whilst spying? > > Cassie (me) wrote: > Though...I do wonder if he has his own wand. > After all, after seeing what > happened with Ron's broken wand you'd think > Hagrid's wouldn't work so well. > > Alexandra: > We know it does not work well. In PS/SS he tries > to turn Dudley into a pig and only manages a > tail. He uses a crossbow in COS to answer the > door not his pink umbrella. So, maybe he knows it > does not work well. The pink umbrella is Hagrids > wand. I do not doubt that. Rowling gives > outrageously obvious clues. It was on the back > wall when he engorged the pumpkins... he used it > in PS/SS moving the boat, going into Diagon > Alley. Cassie: So you agree that it *does* work well at times? I'm simply saying that if Hagrid had only half a wand or even a whole wand put back together by some means (I would think that it wouldn't be the easiest thing to put a wand back together. After all, they wouldn't bother breaking them when a person was expelled/committed of a crime/whatever if the wand could easily be put back together. Unless they're aren't nice and don't let other people keep the parts of their wand, like Hagrid ^^) As for the Crossbow reference...well, the fact that Hagrid isn't supposed to have a wand at that time would make it rather strange if he came to the door pointing it at someone (even stranger considering it's in his umbrella ^^;) ~Cassie-who thinks she thinks to much...I think XP~ Musashi: Nandakanda to kikare tara Kojirou: Kota ete ageru ga yo no nasake Musashi: Sekai no hakai wo fusegutame Kojirou: Sekai no heiwa wo mamorutame Musashi: Ai to shinjitsu no aku o tsuranuku Kojirou: Raburii Chaamii na kataki yaku Musashi: Musashi! Kojirou: Kojirou! Musashi: Ginga wo kakeru Roketto Dan no futari ni wa Kojirou: Howaito Horu shiroi ashita ga matteru ze Nyaasu: Nya, Nya-n te na From lilito8426 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 14 01:15:26 2003 From: lilito8426 at yahoo.com (Lily Clark) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 17:15:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who owns this silly house? In-Reply-To: <1042505388.7380.95666.m11@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030114011526.64082.qmail@web12806.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49755 It seems that I'm another first-poster... Melody said: <> Me: I don't think its a matter of pity, or why Lucius wants to keep Bryce. Lucius probably heard about the guy and ignored him; waved his hand in indifference and went on with his Evil Doings. Lucius probably is only keeping the house for political reasons (owning The Lord's house must make him feel special), and since it is in such disrepear, he obviously really doesn't care about it at all, so why should he pay any attention to such a minor detail as the gardener? ~Lily --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From illyana at mindspring.com Tue Jan 14 01:35:37 2003 From: illyana at mindspring.com (illyana delorean) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 18:35:37 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid and Voldermort In-Reply-To: <20030113214415.59329.qmail@web14509.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030113214415.59329.qmail@web14509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49756 > >Cassie wrote: >"Priori Incantatem...That couldn't happen if >Hagrid had Voldie's ORIGINAL wand. > >Alex me: >But what if Hagrid was just holding it from the >night he picked up Harry when LV went down at the >Potters house? He didn't actually use it. What if >in POA Peter Pettigrew was "hiding" in Hagrids >house because Hagrid had LVs wand there in his >home. Peter wanted to steal LVs wand. Why else >would he be in Hagrids hut? > Are we assuming that, if Hagrid did have LV's wand, he was using it in his pink umbrella? If we are, don't we have to consider that Hagrid did use the wand for magic a few times, even though he may not have verbally uterred the spells? What I mean is, Hagrid used the wand when he picked up Harry from the shack-in-the-middle-of-the-sea in PS/SS to make the boat move (among other things, if I remember correctly). So, although those spells were not ones that Hagrid had to speak (he just pointed his wand, I believe), would they not show up during Priori Incantatem? If it *was* LV's wand making that boat move, wouldn't some sort of ghostly boat come out of the wand and confuse everyone in that graveyard? Of course, Hagrid could have just put LV's wand in his bedside table and let it be during that whole time. Although I think it would be very interesting if Hagrid was using LV's wand in his pink umbrella, I believe it is merely a piece of his wand from his younger years. illyana -- S1.3 MIL+++ RWG++# FRI++ CBG++ P&S-- f++/+++ n- $++++ 9F13, 1F22, 2F13, 3F02, 3F05, 4F01, 4F08, 4F11, 4F19 F1980 HPGCv1 a22 e+ x+* Rm Ri HP4 S+++ Mo++ HG+/VK++ HaP+/SS+++& FGW++ DM++& VC-- GG-- CD+ VK++ SS+++& PT--- AF-- MM++ RL++ O+m FAo F- Sl FHo SfD "What's the point in having a Honda if you can't show it off?" - Superintendent Chalmers visit my livejournal! http://www.livejournal.com/users/illyanadmc From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Tue Jan 14 02:00:22 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 21:00:22 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who owns this silly house? Message-ID: <1c2.3618408.2b54c936@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49757 In a message dated 1/13/2003 8:50:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, lilito8426 at yahoo.com writes: Lily writes: > Lucius probably is only keeping the house for political reasons (owning > The Lord's house must make him feel special), and since it is in such > disrepear, he obviously really doesn't care about it at all, so why should > he pay any attention to such a minor detail as the gardener? Ah, but he does pay attention to that 'minor detail'. Let's pretend for a moment that we are 100% sure that Lucius does own the Riddle house. If he did want to forget about it and Bryce he probably wouldn't continue to pay him. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Malady579 at hotmail.com Tue Jan 14 02:03:47 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody ) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 02:03:47 -0000 Subject: Who owns this silly house? In-Reply-To: <3f.16801f66.2b54b74c@cs.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49758 Kaesa wrote: >Assuming he owns the house, he has a few options as to what to do >with Frank. He could fire him, thus saving money, but supposing >Frank got angry? He'd have every right to, especially since no new >gardener would be hired in his place. Ok, let's assume Lucius Malfoy bought the Riddle house. He has this old house and an old gardener. Frankly it is the grace of the past owners that has kept this old gardener in a job in the first place. Why should Bryce think he would keep his job now? New owner, new servants. Is it a common practice in England to let old house staff stay on if the old owners do not take them? Maybe this is cultural, but in my American eyes, Bryce has no reason to be upset if the new owner does not need, desire, or even want his services no matter how long he has been there. He is after all, the *servant*. >Frank also has a key to the house (and sure, Malfoy could *make* him > give it back, but that would necessitate blatant magic useage and >nasty loose ends) and could go in and do whatever he likes. Frank Bryce is an old man with a bad leg. How could a rather younger Lucius have any problem "wrestling" that key away from Bryce? He would not have to result to magic. And again, if you have been let go from a job, it is your duty to turn in the keys. It is only right. Bryce was not born in that house. He just worked there. Maybe I am being a bit harsh, but life moves on. Bryce seems to be a reasonable man. He knows he is not that great of a gardener. He has to know that he is not "up to snuff" with the other nibble younger gardeners. He should retire and go fish. Kaesa wrote: >Option two is more Death Eater-ly: Avada Kedavra, or something >similar. But people would ask questions, even if Frank isn't >particularly popular in the village. More loose ends. (By that >scene in GoF, of course, he'd seen way too much to do much else >about, and Lord Voldemort is not exactly the sanest person around, is >he?) Killing Frank is more trouble than it's worth, monetarily, at >least. Do you really think Lucius, Mr. Head of Muggle Torture, is that worried about what some silly muggles would think? Come now - they did not even figure out magic was involved the last time three people died by Avada Kedavra. Why would they now go, 'hey this is odd. This old man is dead too. Maybe there is something odd going on in that house.' They already *know* something is odd there. They think Bryce is a part of it all, so then, why would Bryce's death, with his body in that same frozen state as the Riddles, think anything more than that mansion is cursed? And to go back a bit, this *is* Lucius we are talking about. He tortures muggles for fun. Think he is that worried about killing one? Kaesa finally said: > Option three is, of course, keep paying Frank. He doesn't cause >trouble. He doesn't poke around. He's an old guy who can't even get >around very well, and a Muggle to boot. Harmless. And I doubt >Lucius Malfoy is suffering. :-) No, Lucius would not suffer. You are right. But I know few rich people that throw money away just because they have a crisis of conscience. Generally people keep money by being observant on how they spend it. Though, Lucius did spend that much on brooms for Slytherin. Hmmm, I guess he thought that a worthy investment. You know - get all those Slytherin parents on your good side. All those potential student DE's too. A sly thing to do really. Also allows his son in a position of prominence even if Draco can't carry that weight himself. So would muggle hater Lucius pay to keep Bryce around? Yes he can afford it. Yes, Bryce would probably continue to keep to himself. Yes, it is harmless really. But that is not the way Malfoy's mind works. It is a waste of money. Keeps a muggle happy. (heaven forbid.) *Is* a threat. After all. Bryce did poke his nose into Voldie's affairs. Had Voldie not killed him, Bryce would have run for the police. Whether or not *they* believed him, the press would get a hold of the story. Then, Dumbledore would read between the lines and *know* Voldie is in fact there. The death alone cause Dumbledore's attention. Seems he knew enough to know Bryce was a weak link. So it seems to me, if Lucius did in fact buy the house, he should have dismissed Bryce quietly. That would have been the wise move, though Lucius *is* far from wise. > ~Kaesa, newbie to the list, who ought to shut up now. Welcome Kaesa. And don't be afraid to speak you HP mind here. We all quite like the sound of our own voice. Melody who, while watching the American Music Awards on tonight, is wondering why Christina Aguillera insists on doing that to her hair. Honey, I know you can afford shampoo *and* conditioner. From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Tue Jan 14 02:26:04 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 18:26:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Rowling's decision to form an attraction between Hermione & Ron rather than In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030114022604.95728.qmail@web40512.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49759 I have a rather silly reason for why Hermione might spend lots of time with Ron in OoP. In PoA, Hermione was excluded from the Trio because of the Scabbers/Crookshanks conflict and Ron and Harry spent most of their time together. In GoF, it?s Ron?s turn to be an outsider, as Harry and Ron are on non-speaking terms and Hermione, it seems, spends more time with Harry than with Ron (because Harry has loads of problems). So? my guess is that the tradition will continue and Harry will feel he's an outsider when Ron and Hermione start to realise that they're developing feelings for each other etc. Regards, Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Jan 14 03:28:22 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 03:28:22 -0000 Subject: Hagrid and Voldemort/Where was Voldy's wand? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49760 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly L. " wrote: > > Kelly L. again: > > Thing is, I think Voldemort already has his wand back. > Otherwise, the wand he used in the graveyard would not have > locked up with Harry's in the way that it did. He must have had > his old wand, his Fawkes-feather wand, by then. > > What I think is that Hagrid had it up until the end of PoA. > Pettigrew had three years to figure this out--he saw it lying > around, perhaps, on one of Ron's many visits to Hagrid's hut. > When he pretended to have been eaten by Crookshanks, he > went to Hagrid's hut to look for the wand. That's why he was > found there just before all the trouble broke out. He wasn't able > to steal the wand then, because H/R/H found him. > > When he escaped next, after he had been revealed by Lupin and > Sirius, he went *back* to Hagrid's hut, got away with stealing the > wand this time, and returned it to Lord Voldemort. > > Or at least that's what I think happened, IMHO. :) > > Kelly L. bboy_mn: 1.) Who's got the wand? As you pointed out Voldemort has it. Their common wands was the whole foundation of the duel in the graceyard. So we know he has it now. The question is when and where did he get it? 2.) Why was Wormtail at Hagrid's? Like all good rats, he went to a place that was easy to get into and had lots for food laying around. I suspect this is not the first time Hagrid has had rats. But more important, Wormtail helped write The Map, and the map doesn't show the interior of Hagrid's cabin. Harry/Ron/Hermione aren't seen on the Map until they step outside of Hagrid's hut. So he knew he was safe from detection as long as he was in the cabin. 3.) Could Hagrid have had the wand? Yes, he could have recovered it from 'the scene of the crime' and stored it. Maybe Wormtail saw Hargrid take it from Potter's house, maybe he saw it while he visited Hagrid with Ron. Either way, we can assume when Rat!Peter was in the hut, the wand could have been there too. So, seeking the shelter of the hut, and seeking shelter from the Map, Peter hides in Hargid's. Hagrids is out, Rat!Peter takes the wand and hids it near the edge of the forest. Peter is captured. Peter escapes. Peter runs to the FOREST, transforms back to human, grabs the wand, transforms back to a rat, and he's off and running wand and all. I'm not saying I believe it, but it is a reasonable sequence of events. Just a thought. bboy_mn From elfundeb at comcast.net Tue Jan 14 04:13:51 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 23:13:51 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lucius Malfoy's job? References: Message-ID: <003d01c2bb83$58989620$723b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 49762 > Dave: > > > > > > Where does canon imply that Lucius owns the Riddle house? > > Heidi: > > > The implication is in this paragraph: > > < lived > > there nor put it to any use; they said in the village that he kept > it > > for "tax reasons," though nobody was very clear what these might > be. The > > wealthy owner continued to pay Frank to do the gardening, however. > Frank > > was nearing his seventy-seventh birthday now, very deaf, his bad > leg > > stiffer than ever, but could be seen pottering around the flower > beds in > > fine weather, even though the weeds were starting to creep up on > him, > > try as he might to suppress them. >> > > Now a different Dave (Frankis): > > How does this imply Malfoy is the owner? Some kinds of genre > expectation would say that if you have an unidentified rich person > in your story, and an identified one, they are the same person: is > that all it is? Or am I missing something? I have always inferred the Lucius owns the Riddle house. The canon Heidi cited doesn't get me all the way there, but add to that the fact that Lucius seems to be the custodian of many leftovers from the Voldemort era, including Riddle's diary, and the inference becomes stronger. There's also the fact that Voldemort seems to head straight for the Riddle house when he arrives from Albania, suggesting that he knew, or suspected, that it was empty and/or held by friendly hands (or at least hands that still feared him). That's not to say that no other reasonable inference could be made, but I believe the text invites us to think Lucius may be the owner. I also believe that Lucius acquired the house before Voldemort's downfall, at his request. Voldemort was, I believe, quite interested in avenging the rejection of his muggle-born father. He did this through the campaign of torture against muggles, and it makes sense that he would have wanted to possess the Riddle House, as he surely believed it was rightfully his. As Riddle grew up in a muggle orphanage, it does not seem likely that he was the Riddles' legal heir, and in any event, the sentence before the one Heidi cites "new owners," so we know that Voldemort did not inherit the house. I doubt that Riddle had the funds to purchase the house, either. But why not have one of his wealthy followers open up his own coffers and purchase the house for him, perhaps as a show of loyalty? > > The question has significant implications, since if it is Malfoy, it > probably implies he has remained loyal to Voldemort, and therefore > there is a degree of deception going on in the graveyard scene, and > therefore that Voldemort thinks there is a chance Harry will escape, > and hence into Pip's whole Spying Game/MAGICDISHWASHER scenario. > Oh, I don't know about that. I agree with Melody that: >there was [not] that much doubt as to whether Malfoy stayed > loyal to Voldemort." Voldemort understands that Lucius believes he has remained loyal. In the graveyard, Voldemort implies Lucius remained loyal in his own mind: "I am told that you have not renounced the old ways, though to the world you present a respectable face." Lucius' problem is that Voldemort deems Lucius' submerged loyalty not sufficient, as he rebukes Lucius for two things: lacking faith in Voldemort's return, and not actively seeking it, in a manner that reminds me of the third servant (the cowardly one) in the parable of the talents in St. Matthew's gospel. Lucius was apparently loyal, but he was definitely hedging his bets against an eventual return of Voldemort to power. Hanging onto the Riddle house would be a very prudent measure for someone of this mindset, and relatively risk-free as well, since it's a muggle house, on muggle land, and therefore generally outside the purview and prying eyes of the MoM (though I'd be willing to bet that Dumbledore knows who owns it, and that's one reason he reads the Little Hangleton muggle press). Certainly if Voldemort returned, Lucius would not want to be in the position of explaining why he had sold it. And it would also be prudent to have the house properly maintained to avoid as much suspicion as possible. > Melody added: > I might fall for this Malfoy owning the house if he did not also have > to pay for Bryce. Is there any reasonable reason he would do that? I > can think of none. Bryce can't even keep kids out of the house. > Frank may be too old to have maintained his gardening skills and his security skills, but he has one virtue that is perfect for what Lucius (if he is the owner) has been using him for: He doesn't talk to the villagers. So no snooping questions about the owner, only gossip and speculation at the Hanged Man. Voldemort, however, has a different purpose. He actually wants to use the house and property. He therefore must kill Bryce because he has seen too much. Bryce was useful when the house was empty, but he's still too conscientious a security guard to be kept around after Voldemort arrives. And finally, digressing to the original question, I don't believe there's any evidence in canon that Lucius has any employment other than the management of his finances and of Malfoy Manor. However, I have no doubt that Lucius has dealings with the wizarding equivalent of money-launderers who can procure muggle currency on his behalf to pay expenses for the Riddle House, including Frank Bryce's salary. Debbie > See www.hpfgu.org.uk/hypotheticalley for details > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From psnow at nipha.com Tue Jan 14 04:13:49 2003 From: psnow at nipha.com (MrNipha ) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 04:13:49 -0000 Subject: Harry a Seer? (Magical Bond to Pettigrew and Voldemort) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49763 > bboy_mn: > With the exception of Seeing being relative to the future only, I > agree with the points you made. SO FAR, all the evidence says that > Harry's ability is tied directly to and limited to Voldemort, so I > can't show evidence that Harry is anything beyond 'a very limited > Seer'. > In the last chapter of PoA, Dumbledore says, "When one wizard save's another wizard's life, it creates a certain bond between them... This is magic at its deepest, its most impenetrable...". Harry has a magical connection to Voldemort because of the failed AK, but he also has a magical connection to Pettigrew. In both of the dreams Harry had in GoF, he sees Pettigrew, but not Voldemort, and both times they are talking about killing Harry. Harry's scar hurts because, according to Dumbledore in GoF, "Voldemort ... is feeling particularily murderous" -- Voldemort uses an AK at the end of the first dream against the caretaker, and a Cruciatus against Pettigrew in the second. However, in PS/SS, Harry does not have a dream when Quirrell is planning to kill Harry at the Quidditch Match. We have seen that Pettigrew is not magically constrained in being involved in activities directly intended to kill Harry at the cemetary. Without Pettigrew's actions, Voldemort could not have held Harry captive. Pettigrew did not attempt to jump in front of Harry when Voldemort cast the AK at Harry. The magic obviously does not work to force the wizard to save the other wizard's life against their will, so how does it work? Perhaps Harry's dreams are at least part of the answer. MrNipha From voldemort at tut.by Tue Jan 14 05:42:19 2003 From: voldemort at tut.by (Alexander) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 07:42:19 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Krum, Quidditch, NEWTs, Fleur, and More In-Reply-To: <20030114011639.16470.qmail@web40509.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030114011639.16470.qmail@web40509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1402385695.20030114074219@tut.by> No: HPFGUIDX 49764 Greetings! > Maria wrote: MK> Many people seem to take for granted two things: MK> that education in Beauxbatons and Durmstrang lasts seven MK> years like in Hogwarts, and that they have OWLs and MK> NEWTs there too. MK> I don't recall this being said in canon. Different MK> Muggle countries have different education systems, and MK> probably the same goes for the WW. MK> Maybe I'm wrong and it's in canon? Then I'd like it if MK> someone showed references to it. No such things in canon. We might freely assume education systems in the three schools are quite different, though still similar in many respects. I would expect Beauxbatons and Durmstrang to have some analog of NEWT's, but I will not bet my last penny that they have analog of OWL's as well. Sincerely yours, Alexander Lomski, Gryffindor/Slytherin crossbreed, great supporter of McGonagall/Crookshanks SHIP. ----- "One must be a complete paranoic to search for a hedgehog on the top of a fir-tree." (P. Shumilov) From SusanXG at hotmail.com Tue Jan 14 04:44:26 2003 From: SusanXG at hotmail.com (Susan XG) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 22:44:26 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: That ol' H/H argument Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49765 Penny wrote: >>>>More importantly, I think the fact that Krum is bothered enough by Hermione's involvement with Harry to question Harry about their relationship (she talks about Harry "all the time" around Krum) to be perhaps the most telling piece of evidence that it's Harry she likes, rather than Ron.<<<<< >>>>Krum's H/H evidence seems strong, but I think it is weaker than it looks.<<<<< Alright, I just had to commment. In GoF, the only reason Hermione hangs with Harry instead of Ron is because he had no one. Ron has his family and the other Gryffindors. The entire school has shunned Harry. Hermione believes Harry didn't put his name in Goblet and really she has no reason to believe he did in the first place. Ron and Harry had a prior conversation about trying to get past the age line. It only makes sense. Ron can be very jealous of Harry. He's always shunned to the side. It was also mentioned that Hermione shuffled back and forth between the two, trying to get them to make up. Also, don't forget, the books are told from Harry's POV. Therefore, two things: 1) Harry wouldn't neccesarily know about the time Ron and Hermione spent together and 2) There wouldn't be much of a story if both friends shut him out. He's got to have at least one person in his corner. All this above rambling leads to a point--> Krum was in the library because Hermione was in the library. Harry was with Hermione because 1) Everyone hated him except her and 2) because Hermione was the only one speaking to him it's only natural he'd follow her to the library and 3) he and Hermione research stuff for the First Task. Therefore, because Krum was spending all his time in the library 'stalking' Hermione and Harry & Hermione were researching in the library...it's only natural that Krum would suspect Harry and Hermione had something going on from his point of view. Susan :o) (Here's to hoping I made at least a little sense) _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From lupinesque at yahoo.com Tue Jan 14 11:50:48 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z ) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 11:50:48 -0000 Subject: SHIP: That ol' H/H argument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49766 Penny wrote: > > More importantly, I think the fact that Krum is bothered enough by > Hermione's involvement with Harry to question Harry about their > relationship (she talks about Harry "all the time" around Krum) I'm not sure where you're getting this from. Are you referring to Krum's saying she talks about Harry "very often"? David wrote: > Seriously, I think the H/H case *is* at its strongest with the > extrapolation argument above Me too. I also agree with David that there are too many uncertainties and other possible interpretations for this to be more than a hint that could go either way. David again: > If Hermione talked as much > about Ron as Harry, would Krum mention this? Exactly. He might mention it to *Ron,* and if we saw such a conversation, we'd think it hinted at Hermione's reciprocating Ron's interest. But we won't see that conversation unless Harry does, or Ron reports it to him--neither of which is very likely. Knowing how others' perceptions can cause one to recast one's own feelings, I wonder if reflecting on this interaction with Krum might make Harry start to think about *himself* as a rival for Hermione's affections for the first time--although, against that, an entire wizarding nation's conviction that he is romantically involved with Hermione hasn't yet stirred him to make it so. Amy Z -------------------------------------------------- "Hagrid, look what I've got for relatives!" Harry said furiously. "Look at the Dursleys!" "An excellent point," said Professor Dumbledore. -------------------------------------------------- From kristen at sanderson-web.com Tue Jan 14 12:28:50 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (gkjpo ) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 12:28:50 -0000 Subject: Harry a Seer? (Magical Bond to Pettigrew and Voldemort) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49767 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "MrNipha " > > We have seen that Pettigrew is not magically constrained in being > involved in activities directly intended to kill Harry at the > cemetary. Without Pettigrew's actions, Voldemort could not have held > Harry captive. Pettigrew did not attempt to jump in front of Harry > when Voldemort cast the AK at Harry. The magic obviously does not > work to force the wizard to save the other wizard's life against their > will, so how does it work? > > Perhaps Harry's dreams are at least part of the answer. > > MrNipha Well, I'm sure that Harry's dream are a huge factor in the rest of the story since they seem to foreshadow major events. For Pettigrew, he did not interfere in the graveyard, but in the first chapter in GoF he does try to talk LV out of using Harry as his target for getting his body back - with his lack of courage, he probably justified that to himself as satisfying the life debt. In PoA when Sirius confronts him, he claims to have gone to LV's side because (paraphrasing) it was pointless to resist someone so powerful. This gives us some insight into his strengh of mind. I would guess that in the graveyard scene, besides the fact that the life debt remains as foreshadowing for a future event that will be even more life threatening to Harry than this one, since Harry was given the opportunity to defend himself Pettigrew was able to reason that the result was out of his hand. He did, after all, give Harry back his wand which would at least seem like equal footing. Kristen From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Jan 14 13:35:51 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David ) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 13:35:51 -0000 Subject: The Riddle House revisited - harmless TBAY reference Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49768 I thought a bit more about the issue of the ownership of the Riddle house, and realised there is more pointing to Malfoy owning it than at first I allowed. I think there are three possibilities: 1. V was just lucky it was empty; 2. he had arranged for it to be empty; 3. a supporter independently took possession of it and kept it empty. If he was lucky, there is little more to be said. Anybody could own it. It is also very difficult to argue for or against it, except in general terms like 'a smart operator like V would ensure his base is secure before turning up'. If he arranged it, a number of conclusions flow. Firstly, he arranged it some years previously, and so had the bone, flesh, and blood spell as an option for a long time (his only interest is the proximity of his father's grave, it seems). It follows from that that since his disembodiment he has been in contact with at least one supporter in England. Secondly, the rich owner is an active supporter on whom Voldemort relies. By asking for the house to be bought and then going there (even after some years) Voldemort to some extent puts himself temporarily in the power of this supporter. Thirdly, Frank Bryce would be kept on not through sentiment, economy or oversight but because it is the minimum disturbance. Above all, V wishes for the time being to remain inconspicuous. Having arranged the purchase, he is awaiting the first opportunity to go there (well, actually, Quirrell and the PS are such *good* opportunities that he passes up the chance to do the bone, flesh, and blood spell at that time). To sack Frank Bryce would require a replacement to be found (the property must be maintained a little if the tax facade is to be kept up) thus exciting gossip and interest in the village when at any time Voldemort might wish to take up residence. In fact, killing Frank Bryce is almost disastrous for Voldemort. It is a signal to Dumbledore (who reads about it in the paper) that he is coming back, and is in residence at his dad's old place. It is even a clue to the use of the bone, flesh, and blood spell. I think that this suggests that Voldemort wasn't that au fait with the situation or he would have arranged for his rich supporter to write to Bryce explaining that his sick relative who did not wish to be disturbed was about to visit, or some similar excuse. So, in summary, the fact that Voldemort is happy to walk in suggests the owner is a supporter; the fact that Bryce is not told suggests he is not, or that he no longer is. The third possibility is that the owner is an independent (and likely untrustworthy) supporter. After Voldemort's fall, this wealthy supporter acquires the house because he knows, or guesses, that any return by Voldemort would involve its use. He keeps it against the eventuality of Voldemort's return, in the hope of being able either to prevent it or control it. Voldemort, however, realises what is going on and takes advantage of the house's emptiness without informing the owner. He doesn't reckon on Bryce, who represents the minimum-cost solution to the owner. He also risks that the owner has installed suitable detection equipment, or disables it, as Crouch does Moody's dark detectors. In some ways this third possibility stacks up best against the evidence if we take the view that background information is plot- related. Malfoy, the Slippery One, fits very well. The biggest weakness is that the owner might be expected to be better prepared for a possible return by Voldemort than so far appears to be the case. Conclusions: Malfoy may well be the owner, but the death of Frank Bryce militates against the Spying Game/MAGICDISHWASHER hypothesis (see www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hypotheticalley.html for details. My apologies for getting this reference wrong last time). David From lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com Tue Jan 14 13:34:40 2003 From: lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com (lindseyharrisst ) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 13:34:40 -0000 Subject: Britain, Greater or Lesser In-Reply-To: <10d.1df268c5.2b4fe22d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49769 Well, JK has scottish roots apparently, so it makes sense for her to feel that Hogwarts should be situated there. The landscape certainly suggest it's around there. Alnwick castle (Hogwarts film exterior) is of course in Nothumberland (which is in England, for foreign members). As far as defintions of "Britain" go, in the strict sense, that is the one which applies to acts of parliament, "Britain" or alternativley "great Britain" is Scotland, Wales and England. The United Kingdom is those countries plus Northern Ireland. Snapesangel From gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 14 14:24:08 2003 From: gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com (gingersnape1966 ) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 14:24:08 -0000 Subject: Harry own's the Riddle House - Was "Who owns this silly house" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49770 Wow, so many theories about who owns the Riddle House. (Harry, James, Malfoy....) I read the book and jumped to the conclusion that the youngest Riddle (You-Know-Who) had bought it himself. This would have been long before Harry vapourized him, of course. I thought he would have bought it for the fond old memories of that last dinner with Daddy, Gran and Gramps. The fact that he could use it as a hideout would have been a more practical reason, and it turns out he did! If it wasn't his, how did he know it would be empty for him to use after his return from Albania? He must have had some money set aside for the upkeep of the place, since he would not have dared to buy it under the name Riddle. So old Frank would have gone on being paid. As an aside, I'm sure at Frank's age, people just chalked his death up to a heart attack and let it go. Things that make you go hmmmmmmm, Ginger From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Jan 14 15:48:39 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 15:48:39 -0000 Subject: SHIP:Harry/Cho possible; Was JKR & Hermione/Ron In-Reply-To: <03f701c2bb0e$dc7979c0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49771 Penny:"Oh, and on Cho -- yes, he was clearly interested in Cho in GoF..." "...Side note: I can't imagine that Harry will still be interested in Cho (or that she would ever return the interest) after GoF." I don't necessarily agree that future interest is out of the question. Cho is grieved by Cedric's death, and that will at least delay any future interest in Harry, but she is fifteen or sixteen, and people her age are and ought to be resilient. There's no reason to think she blames Harry for Cedric's death, but seeing Harry might remind her of Cedric, blame or not. There can't be a relationship as long as that happens. On Harry's side, he may be too preoccupied with fighting Voldemort to think of romance, period, but if he can, Cho could still be in his mind. He also can tell himself, truthfully, that Cedric would not want her to pine away over him. The preoccupation thing is arguably another point in favor of Harry/Hermione, actually. I see Harry and Hermione becoming more and more a team, more bound to each other, and he *has* noticed her for the first time: Penny, quoting GoF:"But, in any case, Harry certainly registered her appearance at the Ball though, didn't he?" Boy, and how. It was worth retyping the whole paragraph: Goblet of Fire, Ch. 23: " It was Hermione. But she didn't look like Hermione at all. She had done something with her hair; it was no longer bushy but sleek and shiny, and twisted up into an elegant knot at the back of her head. She was wearing robes made of a floaty, periwinkle-blue material, and she was holding herself differently, somehow - or maybe it was merely the absence of the twenty or so books she usually had slung over her back. She was also smiling - rather nervously, it was true - but the reduction in the size of her front teeth was more noticeable than ever; Harry couldn't understand how he hadn't spotted it before." If there aren't sparks there, there's none anywhere; and, if Harry is turning to Hermione for help staying alive, it might occur to him to turn to her for comfort, too. I feel for Ron in this, but he hasn't got a chance if that happens. So, Penny, it may look like I've come full circle, but Harry/Cho is still possible, at least for some period of time. What little we know of her is good, and it seems Ron and Hermione are going to be together for at least a while. From siskiou at earthlink.net Tue Jan 14 16:29:46 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 08:29:46 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP:Harry/Cho possible; Was JKR & Hermione/Ron In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <190128106266.20030114082946@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 49772 Hi, Tuesday, January 14, 2003, 7:48:39 AM, Jim wrote: > and, if Harry is > turning to Hermione for help staying alive, it might occur to him to > turn to her for comfort, too. I feel for Ron in this, but he hasn't > got a chance if that happens. You mean, if Harry developed romantic feelings for Hermione, Ron would immediately be completely "out of the running"? Even if Hermione has more than friendly feelings for Ron, which I see as very possible after reading GoF? Why do you think that? -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From urbana at charter.net Tue Jan 14 17:00:44 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne ) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 17:00:44 -0000 Subject: Harry own's the Riddle House - Was "Who owns this silly house" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49773 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pickle_jimmy " wrote: > The theory: The Riddles die mysteriously leaving Bryce to fend for > himself. James then steps in and buys the house and sets up a Trust > so that Frank is paid (and continues to be paid even after James' > death) and can live out his days in peace. The relationship between > the Potters and the Riddles mean James/Lily have childhood memories > of visits to the house and feel bad for Old Frank when they hear > about the Riddle's deaths (giving them motive for "keeping him on"). > > Once James and Lily died, the Potter Estate passed to Harry, who now > (unbeknownst to him) owns the Riddle house. > IIRC James was supposedly born around 1960, but Tom Riddle killed his parents in the mid to late 1940s. So Frank Bryce would have been fending for himself for at least 30 years before James probably even had access to his family's money. So I'm not sure your theory stands the Test of the HP Timeline. Anne U (incipient L.O.O.N. as well as Filker wannabe) From dicentra at xmission.com Tue Jan 14 17:29:45 2003 From: dicentra at xmission.com (dicentra63 ) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 17:29:45 -0000 Subject: The Riddle House revisited - harmless TBAY reference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49774 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David " wrote: > The third possibility is that the owner is an independent (and > likely untrustworthy) supporter. After Voldemort's fall, this > wealthy supporter acquires the house because he knows, or guesses, > that any return by Voldemort would involve its use. He keeps it > against the eventuality of Voldemort's return, in the hope of being > able either to prevent it or control it. > > Conclusions: Malfoy may well be the owner, but the death of Frank > Bryce militates against the Spying Game/MAGICDISHWASHER hypothesis > (see www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hypotheticalley.html for details. My > apologies for getting this reference wrong last time). What if the owner--through a third-party fa?ade--is Dumbledore? What if he bought the house using the name of an independent or someone whom Voldemort suspected was his follower? He then would have been maintaining it empty, making the bone, flesh, blood spell more appealing (being more convenient). Of course, Dumbledore wouldn't have planned for Frank Bryce's death--he might have assumed Voldemort would be more discrete about his presence. Bryce's death wouldn't have shown up in the London papers, surely, but it would have been mentioned in a smaller, local paper. One that Dumbledore has been reading specifically for the purpose of keeping an eye on happenings at Riddle Manor. MAGIC DISHWASHER it is. --Dicentra From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 14 17:35:44 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 09:35:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: SHIP: That ol' H/H argument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030114173544.47608.qmail@web40507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49776 --- "Amy Z " wrote: > Penny wrote: > > > > More importantly, I think the fact that Krum is > bothered enough > by > > Hermione's involvement with Harry to question > Harry about their > > relationship (she talks about Harry "all the time" > around Krum) > > I'm not sure where you're getting this from. Are > you referring to > Krum's saying she talks about Harry "very often"? Me: But you have to look into reasons *why* Hermione talks about Harry so much. A strong point that someone made is that when Ron and Harry had been fighting, Ron had been spending most of his time with Fred, George, and Lee Jordan. Harry had spent most of his time with Hermione. In GoF he even says something about how it's more fun having Ron as your best friend because being best friends with Hermione means spending alot of time in the library. Also, because of his "Hermione, you're a girl" comment, she's probably spending even less time with Ron than usual. Another thing that just occured to me is that maybe she talked about Harry often because he and Krum have things in common. Not to be mean to Ron (because his day of glory will come soon enough) but up until now, what has he done that Hermione can really talk about? Harry and Krum are both famous (and generally annoyed or embarassed about it) they're both seekers and they're both school champions. There's just alot more to say about Harry than about Ron and if she is actually talking about Harry more that's why I think she's doing it. But, I would still take into account that Krum may not even notice when she talks about Ron. I don't think he even really knows who Ron is. But when he hears her talking about the famous Harry Potter, he notices. Wow, that was long. ~Kathryn From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Jan 14 18:01:10 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 18:01:10 -0000 Subject: JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging In-Reply-To: <190128106266.20030114082946@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49777 Susanne:"You mean, if Harry developed romantic feelings for Hermione, Ron would immediately be completely "out of the running"? Even if Hermione has more than friendly feelings for Ron, which I see as very possible after reading GoF?" I need to explain myself. I should have said Ron "hasn't got a chance, *long-term,* if that happens." Harry would not try to win Hermione away from Ron, and I agree with you she does have feelings for Ron now. Answering that is repeating the entire R/H vs. H/H argument. I stated the anti R/H case back in Message 48708, "Why Ron is wrong for Hermione," and I still believe it. I see these trends bringing Harry and Hermione closer together: As the War heats up, Harry and Hermione will work more closely together. She is moved by intense concern for him and the world at large. They are united in a critical undertaking, and, as the saying goes, "nothing propinks like propinquity." Ron will continue to be Harry's friend, and will help him as best he can. As Hermione and Ron become more an item, Ron may become jealous of all the time Hermione spends with Harry. This could become a source of tension between Ron and Hermione, overlaid by Ron feeling he isn't of equal footing in the Trio. Harry has noticed Hermione for the first time. When I read the Yule Ball passage in Chapter 23 I was surprised I hadn't been more impressed. There were sparks there. This is seen through Harry's eyes, and JKR tells us it's something he never noticed before, and I say he won't forget it. Susanne, in message 48723:"Emotionally, Hermione has a lot to learn. She doesn't always have a good concept about other people's feelings and how to make them feel better, instead of worse." That was true once but history now, IMO. No one else has grown more in this series than Hermione has, not even Harry. The know-it-all little busybody is gone, driven out by a mission, leaving a rapidly maturing young woman with compassion and moral courage (physical bravery under construction). She doesn't belittle the deaths of schoolmates' pets, but shows compassion to Neville; she still believes rules are important, but she breaks them for a reason if need be; she now recognizes the value of life outside academics, giving up the Time-Turner so she can have a normal schedule. She still has things to learn, but she's learning them. Finding a higher purpose has done that for her, and at the center of the struggle we all find - Harry. Susanne, 48723 again:"And Harry doesn't show much appreciation for Hermione's help." I believe Harry does appreciate everything Hermione does for him, and the understanding is past the verbal level. He doesn't need to say anything, and Hermione doesn't need to hear it. They're past that. To me, it comes down to maturity. Hermione is remarkably mature (in the best sense) for a fourteen/fifteen year old, and Harry's experiences are changing him, too, while Ron is more of a normal fourteen/fifteen year old boy. There's nothing wrong with that, but it pushes Harry and Hermione closer together. Jim Ferer, who was somewhere below Neville's maturity at that age From jodel at aol.com Tue Jan 14 18:24:07 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 13:24:07 EST Subject: The Riddle House Riddle Message-ID: <163.1a1c901a.2b55afc7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49778 Who owns the Riddle House? Short Answer; Voldemort does. >From the summary given in the opening chapter of GoF it is clear that the house changed hands any number of times after the murders took place there. At that time Tom Riddle was a youngster who still had his fortune to make and there wasn't really much of anything that he could have done about the house, even if it had occured to him to want to. 25 years later he launched his career as a Dark Lord and over the next 11 years gathered a great many followers and much influence -- and probably a good deal of money as well. A couple of possible hints we have are: 1. The house has belonged to its absent "rich owner" and has stood unoccupied for some time. (at least 13 years, perhaps?) 2. Voldemort *knew* that the house was unoccupied and available for his use without contacting *any* of his followers upon his return to England. 3. Tom Riddle was raised in the Muggle world and knows something of how such things are managed in it. I propose the theory that, at some point in his first rise to power, Voldemort decided, upon whatever whim, to add his grandfather's house to his holdings. He may have dropped by to take a look at the old place and found that it was vacant and available (What other DE would have had any reason to do this?). It might have seemed like a "sign" or like an an appropriate thing to do. That the only witness to his crime was still employed on the site might even have seemed a bonus, since that way he knew exactly where the man (who was certainly no threat to *him*) was and could keep track of him without the slightest bit of effort merely by keeping him on the payroll. It's possible that he confided in the transaction with one of his high ranking followers, but I actually think that he set this up through Muggle channels, set up an independent account and an executor to see that Bryce was paid, and the taxes were taken care of, and kept the information to himself. (If any of the DEs had known of it I suspect that they'd have taken the place apart looking for clues after his disapearance, and that does not seem to be the case.) -JOdel From urbana at charter.net Tue Jan 14 18:59:37 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne ) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 18:59:37 -0000 Subject: Harry own's the Riddle House - Was "Who owns this silly house" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49779 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Anne " wrote: > > IIRC James was supposedly born around 1960, but Tom Riddle killed his > parents in the mid to late 1940s. I meant, of course, his GRANDPARENTS ... since his mother died shortly after he was born and his father abandoned both of them before Tom was born. Obviously I'm not quite L.O.O.N.-ey enough (yet) to be a real HP L.O.O.N. :-( Anne U (who likes JOdel's hypothesis) From sevothtarte at gmx.net Tue Jan 14 19:01:58 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 20:01:58 +0100 Subject: Hagrid and Voldermort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49780 illyana: >What I mean is, Hagrid used the >wand when he picked up Harry from the shack-in-the-middle-of-the-sea >in PS/SS to make the boat move (among other things, if I remember >correctly). So, although those spells were not ones that Hagrid had >to speak (he just pointed his wand, I believe), would they not show >up during Priori Incantatem? If it *was* LV's wand making that boat >move, wouldn't some sort of ghostly boat come out of the wand and >confuse everyone in that graveyard? Not even all of Voldemort's recent spells showed up. There was the hand he made for Pettigrew and the AKs, but it's doubtful wether the "screams of pain" the wand emits stand for the Crucio spells he cast on Harry, and there's no sign of the Imperio spells at all, even though he cast plenty of these (on Harry, Crouch Sr., probably Bertha). What bothers me most about the "Hagrid had LV's wand"-theory: Hagrid's not the type of person to keep something that belonged to Voldemort. He's afraid of speaking the name, he would feel very uncomfortable about keeping the wand. And why should Dumbledore want him to keep it in the first place? Why not destroy it? There's nothing to be gained from keeping it, it just makes it possible for Voldy to get it back which can't be in Dumbledore's interest. And while nobody might suspect Hagrid's hut is where it kept, it would still be safer in Dumbledore's rooms or some hiding place no one knows about. Torsten From srsiriusblack at aol.com Tue Jan 14 20:28:55 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 15:28:55 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: That ol' H/H argument Message-ID: <111.1ea083a7.2b55cd07@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49781 In a message dated 14/01/2003 12:55:38 Eastern Standard Time, katydid3500 at yahoo.com writes: > But you have to look into reasons *why* Hermione talks > about Harry so much. A strong point that someone made > is that when Ron and Harry had been fighting, Ron had > been spending most of his time with Fred, George, and > Lee Jordan. Harry had spent most of his time with > Hermione. In GoF he even says something about how > it's more fun having Ron as your best friend because > being best friends with Hermione means spending alot > of time in the library. Also, because of his > "Hermione, you're a girl" comment, she's probably > spending even less time with Ron than usual. > There is very little mention of Hermione having any other friends but Harry and Ron. Most of the other girls appear to be jealous of her for a few reasons that I can see, and in all honesty, I don't see Hermione as the kind of girl with whom making friends is exceptionally easy. Yes, she helps out people like Neville, but Neville is on some level Harry and Ron's friend. Hermione is a bit bossy. She *is* a 'know-it-all'. And, she is muggleborn. To many in the WW these aren't the best traits in a person. So with all of this in mind, in makes sense to me that she would talk to Krum about Harry. She probably talked about Ron, too, but Harry is, in Krum's mind, the threat. I think it also may be possible that the trio will always be 'just friends'. Hermione seems a bit too sensible to risk her friendships for romance... Just some thoughts, -Snuffles who is trying to catch up with all the posts from the weekend. "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From duchessmadeleine at yahoo.ca Tue Jan 14 21:02:06 2003 From: duchessmadeleine at yahoo.ca (Shelley) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 16:02:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Britain, Greater or Lesser - Hogwarts in Scotland In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030114210206.90561.qmail@web12204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49782 Here is a quote from an interview with JKR regarding where Hogwarts is located: "Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry was the first thing I concentrated on. I was thinking of a place of great order but immense danger, with children who had skills with which they could overwhelm their teachers. Logically, it had to be set in a secluded place and pretty soon I settled on Scotland, in my mind. I think it was in subconscious tribute to where my parents had married. People keep saying they know what I based Hogwarts on - but they?re all wrong. I have never seen a castle anywhere that looks the way I imagine Hogwarts. " The full interview is here: http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/archive/Nov02_Fraser_Scotsman.htm Made "lindseyharrisst " wrote:Well, JK has scottish roots apparently, so it makes sense for her to feel that Hogwarts should be situated there. The landscape certainly suggest it's around there. Alnwick castle (Hogwarts film exterior) is of course in Nothumberland (which is in England, for foreign members). As far as defintions of "Britain" go, in the strict sense, that is the one which applies to acts of parliament, "Britain" or alternativley "great Britain" is Scotland, Wales and England. The United Kingdom is those countries plus Northern Ireland. Snapesangel --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From siskiou at earthlink.net Tue Jan 14 21:58:40 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 13:58:40 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8147842929.20030114135840@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 49784 Hi, Tuesday, January 14, 2003, 10:01:10 AM, Jim wrote: > As Hermione and Ron become more an item, Ron may become > jealous > of all the time Hermione spends with Harry. This could become a > source of tension between Ron and Hermione, overlaid by Ron feeling > he isn't of equal footing in the Trio. But there's no sign of Ron being jealous of the time Hermione spends with Harry alone, or with both Harry and Ron. He *may*, but again, he may not. And Ron is not stupid. He seems to be used by JKR to ask the questions some of the readers may need to have answered, but I really don't see him as incapable of keeping up with Harry and Hermione. Ron is shown as envious of things that fall into Harry's lap without Harry actually doing anything special to deserve them (and yes, Harry has had a miserable life with the Dursleys and deserves pretty much anything he gets offered in the way of love and support, but I am an adult, not a kid/teenager), but Ron doesn't show jealousy of Hermione's knowledge/intelligence or Harry's. > Harry has noticed Hermione for the first time. When I read the Yule > Ball passage in Chapter 23 I was surprised I hadn't been more > impressed. There were sparks there. This is seen through Harry's > eyes, and JKR tells us it's something he never noticed before, and I > say he won't forget it. I think he already *has* forgotten it. If not, I'd have expected him to at least have a little thought here or there about Hermione beyond the friendship. Nothing big, but noticing her lovely smile, or thinking how he likes her hair, even if it's not sleeked up. Just a tiny thing a couple of times to build on later, but after the first astonishment that Hermione could actually look pretty (in Harry's eyes) has worn off, he never thinks of her in a flattering way again. > Susanne, in message 48723:"Emotionally, Hermione has a lot to learn. > She doesn't always have a good concept about other people's > feelings and how to make them feel better, instead of worse." > That was true once but history now, IMO. No one else has grown more > in this series than Hermione has, not even Harry. The know-it-all > little busybody is gone, driven out by a mission, leaving a rapidly > maturing young woman with compassion and moral courage (physical > bravery under construction). Well, yes, she is maturing, but reading the parts with Harry and Hermione interacting again, I see a lot of room for improvement. Harry and Hermione just don't seem to quite click on an emotional level. > Susanne, 48723 again:"And Harry doesn't show much appreciation for > Hermione's help." > I believe Harry does appreciate everything Hermione does for him, > and > the understanding is past the verbal level. He doesn't need to say > anything, and Hermione doesn't need to hear it. They're past that. This makes things easy, I guess ;) I'm sure Hermione would still like to hear she is appreciated every once in a blur moon, and I'm not convinced at all that they are both quite at the non-verbal level, yet. Harry's treatment of Hermione, especially when she is trying to help him, makes me angry sometimes. Though she *does* tend to hassle him and go on and on, until he can't stand it anymore. That's what I mean by saying they don't quite click. While Hermione certainly means well, she needs to stop trying to run peoples' lives too much. > To me, it comes down to maturity. Hermione is remarkably mature (in > the best sense) for a fourteen/fifteen year old, > and Harry's > experiences are changing him, too, while Ron is more of a normal > fourteen/fifteen year old boy. There's nothing wrong with that, but > it pushes Harry and Hermione closer together. You mean, "normal" boys just never change? Or just a bit slower, maybe? I think Ron has still a chance to grow up, and not perpetually stay at the same level, while Harry and Hermione forever leave him behind ;) -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jan 14 22:51:46 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 22:51:46 -0000 Subject: SHIP JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49785 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer " wrote: > > To me, it comes down to maturity. Hermione is remarkably mature (in the best sense) for a fourteen/fifteen year old, and Harry's experiences are changing him, too, while Ron is more of a normal fourteen/fifteen year old boy. There's nothing wrong with that, but it pushes Harry and Hermione closer together. > One of the most realistic things about the series is that Rowling's teens do not mature in lockstep. Nor is maturing a process that happens at a constant rate. Like any other natural growth process it happens in fits and starts. Sometimes it even seems to go backwards--look at Harry at the end of GoF, when he wants nothing more than to break down in Molly's arms and cry like a baby. I can see Harry wanting to regress for a while, finding Hermione's maturity off-putting, and maybe finding the presence of a younger friend, who wouldn't pressure him to act his age, a comforting thing. I honestly don't think the Trio is going to spend the entire length of Book Five head to head with Voldemort. Harry's already been counselled that Hogwarts is his main business. Pippin From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Jan 14 23:03:00 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 23:03:00 -0000 Subject: Harry own's the Riddle House - Was "Who owns this silly house" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49786 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gingersnape1966 " wrote: > Wow, so many theories about who owns the Riddle House. (Harry, > James, Malfoy....) > > I read the book and jumped to the conclusion that the youngest Riddle > (You-Know-Who) had bought it himself. > > ...edited... > > Ginger bboy_mn: Now that you force me to think about it, who would the house logically belong to? Tom Marvelo Riddle II. Dispite being deserted by his father, Tom II is the legitimate heir to the Riddle estate. Maybe the people who lived in it, didn't actually buy it, but rented it from Voldemorts estate agent (I believe what they call an estate agent is what we here in the US call a Real estate agent). Just a thought. bboy_mn From m.bockermann at t-online.de Tue Jan 14 22:55:05 2003 From: m.bockermann at t-online.de (m.bockermann at t-online.de) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 23:55:05 +0100 Subject: Harry will be accused and locked up in Azkaban References: <1042086509.5183.61380.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001301c2bc20$25550760$73429fc1@mb> No: HPFGUIDX 49787 Hi Kathleen! Hi everybody! Since I have been online for a couple of days, I'm a bit late with my Re, but better late than never. >>>>To my knowledge, it has not been raised in any previous posting. If it has, please bring me up to date. I haven't seen it yet. Though I don't post often, I tend to follow such threads closely. First off: I think your theory has some merit and I want to add some support to it. But I have a few questions as well... maybe you have some ideas? >>>When Harry confronts Voldemort, Voldemort tries to win him over by promising the return of his parents. Harry refuses Voldemort....but does anyone else witness it? The only people present are Voldemort, Quirrel,(who dies), and Harry. Ron and Hermione, through a series of plot twistings, have been left behind. Harry faces Voldemort alone. We the readers are privy to his triumph over evil, but who else could come to his defense if his loyalties were called into question? Of course Dumbledore believes him, but he has only Harry's word that Voldemort was thwarted by Harry. This brings me to my first question: what would cause people to believe that Harry would choose Voldemort? He killed his parents after all. There are only two arguements I can't think off and both don't make me very happy. The one idea is that Harry is mentally sick, the other that he is so greedy for power that he would ignore everything else. There is actually canon support that there are at least some people who would buy the first explanation: Rita's final article in GoF. While we the readers know the quality of our favourite yellow press writer, people in the wizarding world do not. They tend to believe her (see Molly's reaction to Hermione before the final trial) and in her last article she questioned Harry's sanity and speculated if he was a danger. Somebody *is bound* to believe her. >>>To an outsider, it would seem that Voldemort has grown more powerful, not weaker, after his encounter with Harry in Book one. True. >>>Fawkes arrives, but could he defend Harry before the Ministry? Unlikely. Even if it would turn out that he could speak (which I doubt), I am certain that the wizarding courts would not accept testimony of a non-human. This I derive from the way the house-elves are treated. >>>Could not the accusation be made that these so called "confrontations" with Voldemort are actually trysts held in the deepest of secrecy, with no witnesses? Could Harry be accused of being in league with Voldemort? Of actually bringing Voldemort to power? Perhaps in hopes that Voldemort will bring his parents back? "Yes" to the first questions. The last one... ? I can only see that under the assumption that the claim will be made that Harry would not believe that Voldemort really killed his parents but believed instead some lies. >>>Harry is already openly suspected of being the heir of Slytherin and under further suspicion for being a parseltongue. Indeed. You raise an interersting point here. CoS is the least liked book by many here. Maybe, because it seems as if its plot is removed from the rest of the storyline. But it shows us two important points: 1) Even though Harry is everybody's darling most of the time (especially SS and Rita's articles in GoF), his reputation can be doubted and that his integrety can be compromised. This prepares us for the second time Harry suffers popular disdain in GoF (after he is chosen as the fourth champion). It's quite likely that it would also pave the way for another wave of rejection and disapproval. 2) Even though Harry might be freed from the accusation of attacking the muggle-born students, I am not so sure the suspicions about his being tainted because of his Parseltongue ability are equally put to rest. People might not think of him as the heir of Slytherin any more, but speaking Parsel appears to be a "go to Slytherin" card and people might wonder and question why he did not actually go to Slytherin. I have always felt that Harry's reaction to the Speaking Hats musings would backfire one day... Would being faced in a trial with the question of "why did you try to get into Gryffindor/why did you refuse Slytherin?" do the trick. Whatever it may be, if it really did not matter, JKR would have let him tell Hermione and Ron by know. Dito for his wand. I was never sure about the kind of backfire, though, but your theory offers a possibility. >>>Would it not seem suspicious to those not yet fully convinced of Black's innocence that Harry has not only rescued Black, but is keeping in contact with him? It might be misinterpreted as Harry being under Black's influence. In a Imperius-curse-kind of way. >>>Harry encounters Voldemort, and returns with a dead Cedric and Voldemort more powerful than ever! We know Harry is innocent, again, Dumbledore believes him. But, no one else witnessed what happened except Voldemort, the Death Eaters and Cedric...now dead. If Harry's crush on Cho Chang comes to light, won't that cast him under even more suspicion as a jealous rival of Cedric's perhaps? Right. I was amazed that nobody seemed to blame Harry, not even his parents. But: 1) There might already be accusers that DD and the others keep away from Harry while he copes with grief and shock. Note that the last chapter begins with the statement that looking back, Harry can't recall much of the events after Cedric's death (not a direct quote, yes). So we have no idea what happened in that time. 2) As before, popular opinion is a wind that can change its direction any time. Amos Diggery might be swayed quickly if evidence is produced to blame Harry. >>>The MoM will want the WW to know that they "have their man" and continue to ignore/facilitate the rise of Voldemort. They will either accuse Harry of bringing Voldemort back to power or of using Voldemort as a scapegoat for the evil things Harry himself has done. I like the scapegoat theory. It fits to Fudge's display of disbelieve at the end of GoF. >>>Ron and Hermione will of course rush to Harry's defense, but won't all their rule breaking come back to haunt them? Ginny and Cho will try to defend him, but the romantic quandrys they are entangled in will come to light, complicating things. Mr. and Mrs. Weasley will try to protect him... but won't Arthur Weasley's smudged reputation with the MoM come back to haunt him? I don't think that the adults will take the teenage romances so seriously, but I agree with you on the rest. >>>What about Fred and George? Could they defend him? Maybe, but Harry recently gave them his winnings from the tournament...hmmm... could he be accused of buying their defense? Percy will be the one to watch..will he side with the MoM or Harry? Could this trial divide the Weasley family in two? Interesting point about the twins... but I'm more suspicious of Percy. You will many discussions in the archive concerning the possibility that he will turn his back on his family, being a stubborn rule-follower and being the outsider of his family. I'd say that he will err but return finally. >>>I would greatly enjoy hearing comments on this theory. This is my first post since I am new. Well, welcome here. Guess I am not the only voice of doom and evil here anymore. :-) Take care, Ethanol From kristen at sanderson-web.com Wed Jan 15 01:49:13 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (gkjpo ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 01:49:13 -0000 Subject: Harry own's the Riddle House - Was "Who owns this silly house" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49788 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve " wrote: > Now that you force me to think about it, who would the house logically > belong to? Tom Marvelo Riddle II. > > Dispite being deserted by his father, Tom II is the legitimate heir to > the Riddle estate. Maybe the people who lived in it, didn't actually > buy it, but rented it from Voldemorts estate agent (I believe what > they call an estate agent is what we here in the US call a Real estate > agent). In the book it states that the house went through several owners - though this seems to be from the perspective of the townspeople. I wonder... if Tom Marvelo Riddle II was the owner, the local folk would have known/recognized the name (because someone in a town always knows the name of the owner). It would only be if it was a name they did not recognize that they would refer to the owner the more general sense that is used. I like the idea of Lucius Malfoy owning it among other Muggle holdings like Grunnings (I think that was Heidi's idea). Then he can influence the Dursley's to send Harry to someplace where he can get help for his "abnormality" - like St. Mungos :). Kristen From Teachgeni at aol.com Wed Jan 15 01:30:30 2003 From: Teachgeni at aol.com (Syd ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 01:30:30 -0000 Subject: Harry a Seer? (Magical Bond to Pettigrew and Voldemort) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49789 Pettigrew did not attempt to jump in front of Harry > when Voldemort cast the AK at Harry. The magic obviously does not > work to force the wizard to save the other wizard's life against their > will, so how does it work? > > Perhaps Harry's dreams are at least part of the answer. > > MrNipha **Hello all - I suspect that when JKR states (through her characters) that one wizard is in the debt of another it may simply mean that in the "final battle" one may somehow make "consideration" of the other. As for Harry being a seer - IMO it seems much more likely that his scar serves as the linking mechanism by which he seems joined to Voldemort. That he also sees Pettigrew is natural as Pettigrew is currently caring for him. It would seem that if Harry had a particular "gift" he would have been able to discern that Scabbers was not an ordinary rat, much as Crookshanks could long before the revelation of the rat's true nature. BTW - it's very nice to meet everyone - Also, I would like to be able to access chat but for some reason I seem unable to do this - perhaps someone more knowledgeable would tell me the secret From debmclain at yahoo.com Wed Jan 15 03:01:11 2003 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie McLain ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 03:01:11 -0000 Subject: Arabella Figg & cabbage Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49790 Okay, okay. Maybe I'm a dork. I have followed the posts about Mrs. Figg and the polyjuice potion. I never really agreed with it. Why would someone do that for 13+ years? And what about the person they are polyjuicing? Where are they "locked up"? It just didn't make sense. However, I just read something on http://www.the-leaky- cauldron.net/blogger.shtml --- the "other" leaky cauldron, mind you. It's a theory about Arabella Figg and cabbage. In SS/PS, About Mrs. Figg's house: "Harry hated it there. The whole house smelled of cabbage.." Again, SS/PS, "Then they visited the Apothecary, which was fascinating enough to make up for its horrible smell, a mixture of bad eggs and rotted cabbage." In CoS, "Pinching his nose, Harry drank the potion down in two large gulps. It tasted like overcooked cabbage." I know there have been repeated posts about Mrs. Figg and the polyjuice potion, but perhaps I missed the post regarding the cabbage? JK either is blatantly telling us something here, or she just can't stand the smell of cabbage.... and I'm willing to bet on her prowess as a writer. I am now a convert. I believe in the polyjuice!Figg theory now. -Debbie From renitentraven at hotmail.com Wed Jan 15 02:44:37 2003 From: renitentraven at hotmail.com (Lisa Armstrong ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 02:44:37 -0000 Subject: Rowling's decision to form attraction between Hr/Ron rather than Hr/H Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49791 Don't panic I'm not going to re-hash the arguments heralding the justification of various ships, I think they've been more than adequately covered, and better than anything I could produce. Peter's post got me thinking as I've also pondered what, if any, influence Hermione's status as JKR's 'quasi' may play in how the canon characters end up relationship wise. I just 'hmmm' if Hermione will ultimatly wind up with the character JKR has acknowledged to be based on one of her oldest friends. (That's Ron/second book was dedicated too, friend). When asked if Hermione would lighten up in later books JKR said 'She will, I did', so in that area anyway there is a correlation. So this may be significant, it may not. This would be pure speculation on my part, and worthless to draw any conlusions from. Peter's post just got me thinking again. Lisa (who dosn't ship so please don't hurt me) I'm one of those people that likes to read author's autobiographies as well as their novels to further shed light on character's motivations. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Jan 15 03:51:09 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 03:51:09 -0000 Subject: Arabella Figg & cabbage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49793 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Debbie McLain " wrote: > ...edited... > It's a theory about Arabella Figg and cabbage. > > In SS/PS, About Mrs. Figg's house: "Harry hated it there. The whole > house smelled of cabbage.." > > ...edited... > > I am now a convert. I believe in the polyjuice!Figg theory now. > > -Debbie bboy_mn: Who thinks Mrs. Figg is just a nice old lady, and believes that she is more likely to be Sirius's maternal grandmother or great aunt than she is to be a beautiful young woman who spent 13 years as an old lady just so she could babysite Harry 2 or 3 times a year. Also, remember she doesn' live next door or 2 house down or across the alley; she lives two streets away. The people who live 2 blocks in any direction of my house are total stranges. People who I have never seen in my live (aahhh.... city life ;) ). So two blocks away is hardly close enough to keep a real close eye on Harry. Petunia doesn't seem the type to let the neighbors drop by everyday for coffee. And Petunia is unlikely to seek out the company of an old lady who smells like cabbage. And who do you speculate this beautiful young woman might be???? ...Lilly? Lilly and Petunia's other sister? Lilly's sister via here other father? Dumbledore's daughter? ...Snapes daughter or girl friend. Mrs. Norris during the week, beautiful old poly-juice maden on weekends? I see no logical purpose for her to be anything other than the story has indicated so far. We DO know that she is a witch, and we may find out that she is a siginificant and formitable witch. But a beautiful young madem who spend a substantial portion of the last thrirteen years taking poly-juice? I'm sorry but that is really a stretch. That is right up their with Hedwig being a poly-juice whatever, assigned to keep an eye on Harry. So what's the deal with the cabbage, you might ask? Well, think of something else that's common and considered to have a generally unpleasant smell, is frequently associated with smelly old people and their old smell house (and no I don't want to get into that again; long timers wil understand what I mean), and can be mentioned in polite company. There are many other examples of JKR repeating terms and phrases. Notice that no one ever climbs, crawl, or scrambles, they always clamber. They clamber out of bed, the clamber up (and down) the stairs, the clamber up (and down) the slope, the clamber in and out the port hole, them clamber here, they clamber there, they clamber everywhere. So I see cabbage as a simple common universally recognizable reference, and to quote the raven, 'nothing more'. (oops, I guess the raven said 'never more' but let's not get into that) I think Mrs. Figg will be a very significant character. I believe there is a lot we don't no about her. But I don't believe she is a fair young maden who sacrificed 13 years as a smelly old lady so she could be babysitter to 'The Boy Who Lived'. Although, I have very little foundation for it, I'm inclined to think Sirius had two reasons for appearing at Magnolia Drive that night Harry ran away. One, to see Harry, the other, to see Mrs. Frigg... but why??? That is the question??? Right now I'm leaning toward Mrs. Figg being a friend or relative of Sirius's. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. bboy_mn From srsiriusblack at aol.com Wed Jan 15 04:11:00 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 23:11:00 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Arabella Figg & cabbage Message-ID: <199.13eff251.2b563954@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49794 In a message dated 14/01/2003 22:52:23 Eastern Standard Time, bboy_mn at yahoo.com writes: > Although, I have very little foundation for it, I'm inclined to think > Sirius had two reasons for appearing at Magnolia Drive that night > Harry ran away. One, to see Harry, the other, to see Mrs. Frigg... but > why??? That is the question??? Right now I'm leaning toward Mrs. Figg > being a friend or relative of Sirius's. I agree. this is a theory I have been pondering for a while, as well. It just doesn't jive with me either that Arabella would have taking polyjuice for so long-- and furthermore there have to be some negative effects from taking something like that for such an extended amount of time. I like to think that there is a connection between her and Sirius- even if not a relative, certainly a friend or mentor? The fact that Frigg lives two streets over makes me think of something too- Harry is protected by magic when he is at home with the Dursleys. Perhaps there are more wizards and witches around the neighbourhood that set a barrier between Voldie and Harry... A shield of magic. And, on the cabbage smell... Maybe Mrs Frigg just really enjoys a plate of corned beef and cabbage every day ;) -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dorigen at hotmail.com Wed Jan 15 04:22:21 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 04:22:21 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Arabella Figg & cabbage Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49795 kemp at arcom.com.au said: >If a store dealing in potion ingredients smells of "eggs and rotten >cabbage", isn't it possible that a person that made a lot of potions >(or had a lot of potion ingredients around) would have a house with a >similar smell. And, if one of the major smells in a potion shop >is "cabbage", maybe many/most potions have that flavour. But if so, then during their experience in a) Potions class and b) Snape's office, wouldn't Harry or Hermione have noticed a cabbage smell? Or even a cabbage smell around Snape, to match the charm of his greasy hair? Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From snorth at ucla.edu Wed Jan 15 04:50:30 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 20:50:30 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Arabella Figg & cabbage References: Message-ID: <001501c2bc51$aca2f9d0$0100a8c0@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 49796 Pickle Jimmy wrote: >If a store dealing in potion ingredients smells of "eggs and rotten >cabbage", isn't it possible that a person that made a lot of potions >(or had a lot of potion ingredients around) would have a house with a >similar smell. And, if one of the major smells in a potion shop >is "cabbage", maybe many/most potions have that flavour. Janet wrote: > But if so, then during their experience in a) Potions class and b) Snape's > office, wouldn't Harry or Hermione have noticed a cabbage smell? Or even a > cabbage smell around Snape, to match the charm of his greasy hair? Me: The hypothesis that cabbage juice implies polyjuice potion, and vice versa, is flawed. By that logic, Crouch!Moody's office in GoF should smell like cabbage, and probably Crouch!Moody himself. However, as far as I know (I don't have the books with me, but I do not recall any instance in which Crouch!Moody is related with a cabbage smell), this is not the case. Thus, the hypothesis that polyjuice potion implies a cabbage smell is clearly wrong. Of course, you can't really apply precise logic to works of fiction (you can try, but the outcome won't always be right), and JKR only knows if any mention of cabbage smell implies polyjuice potion. Personally, I'd say that any reference to an object/person/place smelling like cabbage will only imply one thing: that the object/person/place in question smells like cabbage. (Especially when you take into account that the reference n CoS, "Pinching his nose, Harry drank the potion down in two large gulps. It tasted like overcooked cabbage." doesn't even relate cabbage smell to polyjuice potion, it relates cabbage taste to polyjuice potion. I know that's nitpicking, but it still should be taken into account. And if there is another quote that actually relates the smell, well, I don't have my books with me.) -Scott (if that sounds strange, I was in the middle of my math homework, so sue me. :D ) From punkieshazam at yahoo.com Wed Jan 15 07:16:21 2003 From: punkieshazam at yahoo.com (punkieshazam ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 07:16:21 -0000 Subject: The Riddle House Riddle In-Reply-To: <163.1a1c901a.2b55afc7@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49797 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jodel at a... wrote: > Who owns the Riddle House? > > Short Answer; Voldemort does. I agree with you Jodel. I have just reread Chapter I of GoF for the 976th time (okay, okay maybe the 40th) and on page 1 (all US hardback version) we have: The villagers of Little Hangleton still called it "the Riddle House", even though it had been many years since the Riddle family had lived there. Then on page 4: He (Frank) stayed to tend the garden for the next family who lived in the Riddle House, and then the next--for neither family stayed long. Also on page 4 and 5 is the quote that Heidi believes implies that Lucius owns the house: The wealthy man who owned the Riddle House these days neither lived there nor put it to any use; they said in the village that he kept it for "tax reasons".... It was this quote and LV's audacity in coming into the house and also that Dumbledore apparently subscribes to the Little Hangleton paper that made me believe that Tom Riddle the younger claimed the Riddle estate and therefore the house. The money made it possible for him to travel far and wide and study the dark arts. Nowhere in canon do we get any hints at a career path for Voldemort other than being evil. It also made it possible for him to relate to Lucius as a rich man. Two peas in a pod. If the house has changed hands on paper, then Voldie sold it to himself using one of his aliases IMO. Nowhere in any of these quotes does it say that the ownership of the house changed. I agree with Debbie that Frank was kept on because people in the area were used to him and it kept curiousity down. Ownership of this silly house is about the only thing that can get me to delurk. Punkie Petunia is a squib! From flamingstarchows at att.net Wed Jan 15 05:22:21 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 23:22:21 -0600 Subject: Arabella Figg References: Message-ID: <002901c2bc56$15782580$db09570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 49798 bboy_mn said:Who thinks Mrs. Figg is just a nice old lady, Also, remembershe doesn' live next door or 2 house down or across the alley; shelives two streets away. The people who live 2 blocks in any directionof my house are total stranges. People who I have never seen in mylive (aahhh.... city life ;) ). So two blocks away is hardly closeenough to keep a real close eye on Harry. I'm jumping in since I'm new here...We know Mrs. Figg lived two streets away, so why was she knocked down crossing Privet Drive on her crutches by Dudley on his new racing bike in the first book? Was she over there checking onHarry since he had been locked under the cupboard since Dudley's birthday? ~Cathy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From htfulcher at comcast.net Wed Jan 15 11:49:42 2003 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 11:49:42 -0000 Subject: The Riddle House Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49799 Punkie wrote: >Also on page 4 and 5 is the quote that Heidi believes implies that Lucius owns the house: The wealthy man who owned the Riddle House these days neither lived there nor put it to any use; they said in the village that he kept it for "tax reasons".... < I'm re-reading GoF myself at the moment and after perusing this thread it strikes me to note, "Sometimes a pipe is just a pipe." I would rather believe that it is just a convenient plot devise to get the story moving (creepy old house with a nasty past, etc.) and Dumbledore's reading the local fishwrapper just more evidence of his vast intelligence. Just my opinion. ME From risako at nexusanime.com Wed Jan 15 05:45:49 2003 From: risako at nexusanime.com (otaku_risako ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 05:45:49 -0000 Subject: Petunia vs. Filch In-Reply-To: <120.1bda9186.2b4899fa@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49800 blind_nil-date wrote: > > I think that perhaps Aunt Petunia is bitter about Lilly because Petunia is > a squib! > > Comments on this? > Audra said: > However, according a JK Rowling interview, Lily really is "muggle born" The books confirm that, too. Hagrid tells Harry, "...some o' the best [wizards and witches] I ever saw were the only ones with magic in 'em in a long line o' Muggles -- look at yer mum! Look what she had fer a sister!" (PS/SS, Canadian softcover edition, p.61) Melissa, sorry for the late reply.... From Ali at zymurgy.org Wed Jan 15 13:19:54 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 13:19:54 -0000 Subject: Quidditch: Ron, Wizarding population and the rules Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49801 Ron: Much has been said about Ron the strategist and Ron the Quidditch devotee, but has anyone questioned why his favourite team is so lacklustre? Echoing again Debbie's suggestion that Quidditch is a Metaphor for the unfolding story in the Potterverse, can anything be read into the fact that Ron is passionate about a team who's motto is "let's all just keep our fingers crossed and hope for the best" (QTTA p.33). Whilst it is true that team support often runs geographically or through families, it is also true that fans follow success. In Britain this is particularly true of youngsters flocking in their droves to support Manchester United. Ron though is loyal to a team who on recent performance (i.e. the last century) have little hope of success, yet his greatest desire in life is to be successful. We see this in his vision of upholding the Quidditch cup and becoming Head Boy in the Mirror of Erised. Ron appears confused, fighting between mediocrity (as represented by his love of the "Canons" and his feelings about poverty) and his desire for attainment and success. Quidditch teams and the tie in to Wizarding Population At Hogwarts, at any one time there are only 28 first team players. If Hogwarts is the only Wizarding school in the country (here I'll take JKR's words at face value), then it would not be unreasonable to assume that the majority of these players would go on to play professional Quidditch. Where else are the players from the Professional Leagues 13 teams recruited from? The only professional Quidditch players mentioned in QTTA seem to have had careers of around 12 years (Kevin & Karl Broadmoor, 11 years; Darren O'Hare, 13 years; Hamish MacFarlan, 11 years) which is not so different to the careers of professional footballers (as in soccer) in the English Football League. Yet, despite this, Oliver Wood, captain and keeper of the successful Gryffindor team manages to secure only the position of a reserve keeper and the 3 Weasleys all choose alternate careers. Perhaps foreign players keep the Professional League afloat? Quidditch rules. QTTA provides us with a framework for Quidditch rules. However, this leaves many questions. I'd like to refer to Shaun's Haterley's suggestion that Quidditch must operate on 2 levels: school Quidditch and Professional Quidditch. I would definitely agree that this is likely, but these differences can only be imagined. Without any further information I would have to assume that the rules we are given refer to both Hogwarts and Professional Quidditch. This would lay Hogwarts' students open to the possibility of month long games. Perhaps it is only the strategy of the teams themselves ? and the skill of the seekers, which prevents this from happening. I know that there are circumstances when Harry needs to catch the Snitch quickly ? bad weather, Snape refereeing, or as in the case of the "Quidditch Final" only a set number of points that need be achieved before Harry's Snitch catching would win the game. But, I do wonder why there has not been any further discussion on Harry delaying catching the Snitch until Gryffindor has a certain point ratio. Perhaps Shaun is right, and school Quidditch does not need such tactics. I'm slightly confused. Wood tells Harry that he thinks that the record for a professional match is 3 months. "They had to keep bringing on substitutes so the players could get some sleep". (PS/SS UK edition p.125). This contrasts with Rule 5 in QTTA (p.28 UK edition): In the case of injury no substitution of players will take place. The team will play on without the injured player. This inconsistency is either a Flint, or the rule about no substitutions is relatively recent and actually serves to shorten the length of the match. Ali really excited about finally reading OoP on June 21 - hurrah! From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Jan 15 13:40:05 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 13:40:05 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's knowledge (OOP) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49802 >From OOP: www.bloomsburymagazine.com/harrypotter/muggles/faq/faq.asp?pageNo=15 "Dumbledore lowered his hands and surveyed Harry through his half- moon glasses. `It is time,' he said, `for me to tell you what I should have told you five years ago, Harry. Please sit down. I am going to tell you everything.'" Elkins and others have commented on how the legacy items Harry depends on - mother's protection, map, cloak - are failing him as the story goes on. Taken at face value, the above quote ('everything') implies that Dumbledore's usefulness is about to run out. His power and wisdom may still have value, but any mysteries in books 6 and 7 will be as unknown to Dumbledore as to us. His omniscience will be at an end. David From gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 15 13:30:09 2003 From: gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com (gingersnape1966 ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 13:30:09 -0000 Subject: Harry will be accused and locked up in Azkaban In-Reply-To: <001301c2bc20$25550760$73429fc1@mb> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49803 Lots of theories have been put out about Harry going to Azkaban, but I'm not going to reprint all here. (Go up the thread, if you haven't, it's worthwile reading). Now could someone British help me out with this? In the United States, we have a seperate juvenile system. Does (for lack of better term) the Muggle British justice system have such a thing? Would the Wizarding system? How closely does what we have seen of the Wizarding system match the British system? In the United States, one has to commit a very serious crime or be very close to 18 (and usually with a long juvenile record) to stand trial as an adult. Wouldn't this play in to these theories? Also, it was mentioned that in SS, You-Know-Who promised Harry the return of his parents. In the US version, it only says he promised that Harry would live, not end up dead like his parents. Is this a different translation? It certainly would put a really cool spin on things. Although, now that I think of it, I remember JKR saying in an interview that there is no spell to bring back the dead, so it would have been a lie anyway. Shoot. There goes that theory. They'd have kicked Harry's butt for joining with evil just to bring them back anyway. Keep the theories coming! Ginger, who finds all things British very cool From rpenar at gorbyreeves.com Wed Jan 15 14:00:16 2003 From: rpenar at gorbyreeves.com (R. Penar ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:00:16 -0000 Subject: OoP release date announced! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49804 This just appeared on CNN this morning. OoP is set to be released on June 21, 2003. 38 chapters, 255,000 words, 1/3 longer than GoF! http://money.cnn.com/2003/01/15/news/companies/harrypotter/index.htm From pennylin at swbell.net Wed Jan 15 14:37:00 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:37:00 -0600 Subject: ADMIN: Release Date Discussions Message-ID: <03a201c2bca3$90a3f2f0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 49805 Hi all -- Happy Harry Day to us all! Yes, June 21st is the Big Day. You can read about it here: http://www.bloomsburymagazine.com/harrypotter/muggles/whassup/news.asp Please don't send anymore news links to the main list. If you find a news story with a different angle or twist, send it through to our Announcements list though. Discussions of the release date (i.e., "OMG, can you believe how *long* it's going to be?" or "Squeeeee.... I'm so excited!") should all go to the OT-Chatter list. We are all very excited, and I'm sure it will be the talk of the OT-Chatter list for the next few weeks/months! Thanks for your cooperation -- Penny for the Mods From rvotaw at i-55.com Wed Jan 15 16:02:13 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 10:02:13 -0600 (CST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's knowledge (OOP) Message-ID: <15783203.1042646533561.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49806 David wrote: > Taken at face value, the above quote ('everything') implies that
> Dumbledore's usefulness is about to run out. His power and wisdom
> may still have value, but any mysteries in books 6 and 7 will be as
> unknown to Dumbledore as to us. His omniscience will be at an end.
This is exactly what I thought. I'm wondering if he won't after all be the death in Book 5. Or if he will die early in Book 6, depending on which part of Book 5 that was in. Could be all the way at the end, as a conclusion. I'm also wondering what exactly happens to make Dumbledore say he's going to tell Harry "what I should have told you five years ago. . . . I'm going to tell you everything." Everything? Wow. So why has Dumbledore now changed his mind and decided he should've told Harry everything to start with? When Harry asked various things in SS/PS in the hospital wing, Dumbledore said he couldn't tell him--yet. Now he thinks he should've told him then. Why? Also, I can't help but wonder. Why is Harry lying flat on his back in a flowerbed?!? Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cantor at vgernet.net Wed Jan 15 16:14:44 2003 From: cantor at vgernet.net (cantoramy ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 16:14:44 -0000 Subject: Arabella Figg & cabbage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49807 I think that Mrs. Figg is part of the "ancient magic" that Dumbledore used to protect Harry when he was brought to the Dursleys. In GoF, p. 570 (bloomsbury pb), LV says "For he has been better protected than I think even he knows, protected in ways devised by Dumbledore long ago...Dumbledore invoked an ancient magic, to ensure the boy's protection as long as he is in his relations' care. Not even I can touch him there." This is probably why Harry cannot go home with Ron right after school has ended, so that LV cannot finish what he started. Since Mrs. Figg lives two blocks away, she may be on the perimeter of the area protecting Harry when he is with the Dursleys. There may be others surrounding 4 Privet Drive in the other directions. And...cabbage just plain stinks. cantoramy From beccablue42 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 15 14:35:37 2003 From: beccablue42 at hotmail.com (beccablue42 ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:35:37 -0000 Subject: Harry's tears In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49808 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grindieloe " wrote: Calculating Harry's tears: > I do remember Harry crying a few times... granted, not sobbing, but > still... > > 1. You were right about Harry crying in front of Dumbledore in the > hospital wing. That's 1. > > 2. When Hagrid gave Harry the pictures/photo album of his parents in > SS... That's 2. > > 3. Doesn't he cry at the end of GoF on Mrs. Weasley's shoulder? > That's 3. > > That's three times at least that Harry has at least gotten some tear > action in there... is there any that I'm forgetting? My turn: I don't think that he actually does manage to cry on Mrs. Weasley's shoulder. He fights the sob that is struggling to break through (I really shouldn't quote without the books), but is interrupted by Hermione's capture of Bug!Skeeter. BUT-- Harry does cry in POA when he's working with Lupin to learn the patronus. He "comes to" and his face is wet with tears. He looks down and pretends to tie his shoe so Lupin won't notice. Becca, lurker supreme. From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Jan 15 16:27:04 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 16:27:04 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Flint (OOP) In-Reply-To: <15783203.1042646533561.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49809 Richelle wrote: > I'm also > wondering what exactly happens to make Dumbledore say he's going to tell > Harry "what I should have told you five years ago. . . . I'm going to tell you > everything." Everything? Wow. So why has Dumbledore now changed his mind and > decided he should've told Harry everything to start with? When Harry asked > various things in SS/PS in the hospital wing, Dumbledore said he couldn't tell > him--yet. Now he thinks he should've told him then. Why? Yes, I wondered about that, too. But there is something far more important than Dumbledore's regrets that hangs on this. I reckon you are right, he is referring to that conversation in the hospital wing at the end of PS. In which case, assuming that OOP covers only Harry's fifth year, it is at most only *four* years previously that Dumbledore missed his opportunity. In which case we have an OOP *FLINT*, right here. Now, it's possible that Dumbledore really does mean he should have told Harry everything five years before the OOP conversation, which might be around the time of the letters from no-one, or a little earlier. So we can't know if it's a Flint till the book comes out, and maybe not even then. Anyway, I stake my claim to be first to spot one, to be adjudicated June 22 by Gwen and Cindy. David From gandharvika at hotmail.com Wed Jan 15 16:43:23 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 16:43:23 +0000 Subject: (FILK) OoP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49810 OoP (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Misery_ by the Beatles) Oh! *What Great News!* http://www.bloomsburymagazine.com/harrypotter/muggles/whassup/news.asp Midi is here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle01.html The wait's been driving me mad...OoP Please let me explain I don't want to complain The wait's been driving me mad...OoP They've just announced the date Soon we won't have to wait The time is going to drag...OoP One third longer than the fourth book, says the site Can't wait until I pick it up at midnight, outtasight! Dumbledore's saying, "I'll tell you everything" I just want to sing...OoP We'll all find out who it is who's going to die If it turns out to be Snape I'm going to cry, "Why, oh why?" I won't be revived Until I get book five Without my fix I'll be in misery (oh oh oh) OoP (ooh ee ooh ooh) OoP (la la la la la la) -Gail B...in a celebrating kind of mood :)> _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Wed Jan 15 16:58:37 2003 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (Marcus ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 16:58:37 -0000 Subject: Sorry, no flint In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49811 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David " wrote: > I reckon you are right, he is referring to that conversation in the > hospital wing at the end of PS. In which case, assuming that OOP > covers only Harry's fifth year, it is at most only *four* years > previously that Dumbledore missed his opportunity. > > In which case we have an OOP *FLINT*, right here. > David I noticed that too. I was excited for a while but then cooled off. People use that expression, "five years ago", all the time to mean a time period of anywhere from three or four to seven or eight years previous. It only counts if Dumbledore says something like, "I should have told you five years, six months, nine days, and two hours ago." From wpfositpoi at yahoo.com Wed Jan 15 16:51:51 2003 From: wpfositpoi at yahoo.com (wpfositpoi ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 16:51:51 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Flint (OOP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49812 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David " wrote: > Richelle wrote: > > I'm also > > wondering what exactly happens to make Dumbledore say he's going > to tell > > Harry "what I should have told you five years ago. . . . I'm going > to tell you > > everything." Everything? Wow. So why has Dumbledore now changed > his mind and > > decided he should've told Harry everything to start with? When > Harry asked > > various things in SS/PS in the hospital wing, Dumbledore said he > couldn't tell > > him--yet. Now he thinks he should've told him then. Why? > > Yes, I wondered about that, too. > > But there is something far more important than Dumbledore's regrets > that hangs on this. > > I reckon you are right, he is referring to that conversation in the > hospital wing at the end of PS. In which case, assuming that OOP > covers only Harry's fifth year, it is at most only *four* years > previously that Dumbledore missed his opportunity. > > In which case we have an OOP *FLINT*, right here. > > Now, it's possible that Dumbledore really does mean he should have > told Harry everything five years before the OOP conversation, which > might be around the time of the letters from no-one, or a little > earlier. So we can't know if it's a Flint till the book comes out, > and maybe not even then. > > Anyway, I stake my claim to be first to spot one, to be adjudicated > June 22 by Gwen and Cindy. > > David Maybe this conversation with Dumbledore comes at the end of OOP, the end of Harry's fifth year at Hogwarts, putting the "five years ago" mark closer to Harry's first year at Hogwarts. wpfositpoi From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 15 16:57:37 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:57:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Petunia vs. Filch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030115165737.96555.qmail@web40507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49813 > Audra said: > > However, according a JK Rowling interview, Lily > really is "muggle > born" Melissa wrote: > The books confirm that, too. Hagrid tells Harry, > "...some o' the > best [wizards and witches] I ever saw were the only > ones with magic > in 'em in a long line o' Muggles -- look at yer mum! > Look what she > had fer a sister!" (PS/SS, Canadian softcover > edition, p.61) Me: Also, when Aunt Petunia is going on about Lily getting her letter she says her parents were so proud to have a witch in the family...so apparently she was the first/only witch in the family...at least that they knew about. ~Kathryn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From cindysphynx at comcast.net Wed Jan 15 17:07:19 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C. ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 17:07:19 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Flint (OOP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49814 Richelle quoted JKR: >"what I should have told you five years ago. . . . I'm going > to tell you everything." And then wondered: >So why has Dumbledore now changed > his mind and decided he should've told Harry everything to start >with? When Harry asked various things in SS/PS in the hospital >wing, Dumbledore said he couldn't tell > him--yet. Now he thinks he should've told him then. Why? Oh, that's easy! ;-) I think Dumbledore's statement comes toward the end of the book. It occurs *after* Hermione is killed, see. Harry is grieving the lost of his second-best friend, and Dumbledore explains all about . . . uh . . . what the protection surrounding Harry is and how it doesn't protect second-best friends. I think Mrs. Figg is going to rub out Hermione, myself. ;-) David submitted his entry for First Flint: > I reckon you are right, he is referring to that conversation in >the hospital wing at the end of PS. In which case, assuming that >OOP covers only Harry's fifth year, it is at most only *four* years > previously that Dumbledore missed his opportunity. > > In which case we have an OOP *FLINT*, right here. Nah, I think Dumbledore is thinking he blew it by not coming clean about the protection surrounding Harry back when Harry first learned he was a wizard -- five years earlier. Cindy -- who thinks the first Flint is the fact that Harry is lying in a flower bed face *up* when everyone knows you are supposed to lie in flower beds face *down* From dorigen at hotmail.com Wed Jan 15 17:12:48 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 17:12:48 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's Flint (OOP) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49815 >Cindy -- who thinks the first Flint is the fact that Harry is lying >in a flower bed face *up* when everyone knows you are supposed to >lie in flower beds face *down* Why does everyone assume the teenager is Harry? Dudley Dursley is a teenager, too. He probably fell off his skateboard or something -- possibly assisted by Harry (accidentally), Dobby (deliberately), or by Harry's protection (unknown at that point). Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From Ali at zymurgy.org Wed Jan 15 17:18:12 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 17:18:12 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's knowledge (OOP) In-Reply-To: <15783203.1042646533561.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49816 Richelle pondered: << Also, I can't help but wonder. Why is Harry lying flat on his back in a flowerbed?!? >> and Cindy thinks <> Well, does the teenager have to be Harry? perhaps Harry finally did something to Dudley that left him lying face up in a flowerbed. I'm sure that JKR hinted that Harry hadn't done anything to Dudley yet - implying that it was at least a possibility for the future. Worse still, the only other time I can recall someone lying face up was Cedric... Ali Who wonders if it's significant that OoP is being published on Midsummers Day. From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 15 17:18:37 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 17:18:37 -0000 Subject: Flowerbed and Dumbledore's Flint (OOP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49817 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C. " wrote: > Cindy -- who thinks the first Flint is the fact that Harry is lying > in a flower bed face *up* when everyone knows you are supposed to > lie in flower beds face *down* No, no no. Harry [or Dudley] is lying in a flower bed face *up* because someone or something has hit him in the face. This has made him fall *backwards* into the flowerbed, landing on his back with face up. The soon to be notorious Dumbledore quote: "what I should have told you five years ago. . . . I'm going to tell you everything." Whether 'five years ago' is a Flint or not, the more important speculation is that these lines ... ... are of course, said to Harry in the hospital, at the end of term... ... and will be the last lines in OoP. ;0) Pip!Squeak From susannahlm at yahoo.com Wed Jan 15 17:28:37 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (susannahlm ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 17:28:37 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Knowledge, Flowerbeds Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49818 Ali wrote: >Well, does the teenager have to be Harry? perhaps Harry finally did >something to Dudley that left him lying face up in a flowerbed. I'm >sure that JKR hinted that Harry hadn't done anything to Dudley yet - >implying that it was at least a possibility for the future. Well, that's true. It is a possibilty. But since those are the *first words* of the book, and that scene is the first thing we see, I'm betting it's Harry. It would be weird to start the book out with Dudley. Also, Pippin proposed the monumentally disturbing possibility: >The soon to be notorious Dumbledore quote: >"what I should have told you five years ago. . . . I'm going >to tell you everything." >Whether 'five years ago' is a Flint or not, the more important >speculation is that these lines ... >... are of course, said to Harry in the hospital, at the end of >term... >... and will be the last lines in OoP. ;0) Oh, dear. In which case, the sixth book had better take less time than did the fifth. Or someone will wind up massacreing JKR, out of pure suspense. ; ) Derannimer (who would like everyone to join along with her: WHEEEEEEEEE!) From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Jan 15 17:36:48 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 17:36:48 -0000 Subject: Flowerbeds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49819 Cindy wrote: > Cindy -- who thinks the first Flint is the fact that Harry is lying > in a flower bed face *up* when everyone knows you are supposed to > lie in flower beds face *down* No, it's Ron. He knows Fleur is about to visit Harry. David From dicentra at xmission.com Wed Jan 15 17:51:25 2003 From: dicentra at xmission.com (dicentra63 ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 17:51:25 -0000 Subject: Flowerbeds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49820 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David " wrote: > Cindy wrote: > > > Cindy -- who thinks the first Flint is the fact that Harry is > lying > > in a flower bed face *up* when everyone knows you are supposed to > > lie in flower beds face *down* > > No, it's Ron. He knows Fleur is about to visit Harry. > Or it's Draco. He's found himself an invisibility cloak and he's lying in wait. Only he forgets that *everyone* can see his body print flattening the pansies. --Dicentra, and flattening the dicentras, for that matter From kkearney at students.miami.edu Wed Jan 15 18:00:15 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 18:00:15 -0000 Subject: Arabella Figg & cabbage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49821 bboy_mn wrote: > Who thinks Mrs. Figg is just a nice old lady, and believes that she is > more likely to be Sirius's maternal grandmother or great aunt than she > is to be a beautiful young woman who spent 13 years as an old lady > just so she could babysite Harry 2 or 3 times a year. Also, remember > she doesn' live next door or 2 house down or across the alley; she > lives two streets away. Me: Who says she spent 13 years as an old lady? Polyjuice lasts an hour. I believe in the Polyjuiced Arabella Figg theory, but I think she only used it when necessary. Whenever she had to babysit Harry, to make an occasional public appearance walking down the street, etc. After all, like you say, she lived two streets away. How often did Harry and the Dursleys see her? Appearing once a week or so would probably be more than enough to convince most Muggles that she was just an ordinary old lady. My personal theory: Arabella Figg is the "director of operations" of whatever is protecting Harry. Monitoring surveillance, updating spells, what have you. Of course, this theory doesn't require the polyjuice at all. But the members of the Old Crowd, thus far, have all been about the same age, and therefore I believe Arabella Figg fits into the same age category as the Marauders. -Corinth From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jan 15 18:00:50 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 18:00:50 -0000 Subject: Flowerbeds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49822 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dicentra63 " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David " > wrote: > > Cindy wrote: > > > > > Cindy -- who thinks the first Flint is the fact that Harry is > > lying > > > in a flower bed face *up* when everyone knows you are supposed to > > > lie in flower beds face *down* > > > > No, it's Ron. He knows Fleur is about to visit Harry. > > > Or it's Draco. He's found himself an invisibility cloak and he's > lying in wait. Only he forgets that *everyone* can see his body print > flattening the pansies. No, it's Ginny. Harry hasn't noticed she's a girl. Pippin thinking we'd better move this to OT-C before we get howled. > > --Dicentra, and flattening the dicentras, for that matter From cindysphynx at comcast.net Wed Jan 15 18:07:40 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C. ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 18:07:40 -0000 Subject: Flowerbed and Dumbledore (OOP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49823 Pip predicted: > No, no no. Harry [or Dudley] is lying in a flower bed face *up* > because someone or something has hit him in the face. This has >made him fall *backwards* into the flowerbed, landing on his back >with face up. Ali challenged: >Well, does the teenager have to be Harry? Derannimer added: >But since those are the *first words* of the book, and that scene >is the first thing we see, I'm betting it's Harry. It would be >weird to start the book out with Dudley. Well, what are the first lines of the other four books: *********** PS/SS: "Mr. and Mrs. Dursley, of number four, Privet Drive, were proud to say that they were perfectly normal, thank you very much." CoS: "Not for the first time, an argument had broken out over breakfast at number four, Privet Drive." PoA: "Harry Potter was a highly unusual boy in many ways." GoF: "The villagers of Little Hangleton still called it "the Riddle House," even though it had been many years since the Riddle family had lived there." OoP: "The hottest day of the summer so far was drawing to a close and a drowsy silence lay over the large, square houses of Privet Drive The only person left outside was a teenage boy who was lying flat on his back in a flowerbed outside number four." ********** Aha! JKR often starts the book off from a perspective other than Harry's. Well, do you guys want me to spoil the surprise and tell you who is lying in the flowerbed and why? It could be Harry, Dudley or even Piers Polkiss, I suppose. Are you sure? Well, OK, then. OoP starts off with Harry having just fallen off of the roof of Number 4 Privet Drive. He was assigned the task of installing Dudley's new satellite dish, lost his footing, and landed flat on his back in the flowerbed. You're welcome! ;-) But then there is this: ************* "Dumbledore lowered his hands and surveyed Harry through his half- moon glasses. `It is time,' he said, `for me to tell you what I should have told you five years ago, Harry. Please sit down. I am going to tell you everything.'" Oh, I know what is going on here as well. The key is Dumbledore lowering his hands. Why would Dumbledore have his hands up, do you think? The answer is that Dumbledore has just used the Put-Outer to remove the protection surrounding Harry on Privet Drive (or to install the protection somewhere else)! In PS/SS, Dumbledore takes out the Put- Outer, "flicked it open, *held it up in the air,* and clicked it." So in OoP, Dumbledore uses the Put-Outer in Harry's presence, lowers his hands, and then spills his guts to Harry. Remember, you heard it here first. ;-) Cindy -- who thinks Dumbledore will deliver his lines at the end of a chapter From camdenandmo at earthlink.net Wed Jan 15 17:58:01 2003 From: camdenandmo at earthlink.net (camdenandmo ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 17:58:01 -0000 Subject: Arabella Figg and cabbage Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49824 Regarding the cabbage. I am one who always reads for symbolism, hidden clues, etc., but I can easily disregard repetition of cabbage. 1) Why use polyjuice potion to live in the muggle world and baby-sit occasionally? I am sure she does more than this (watches him often, cast protection spells, and so forth), but the polyjuice doesn't seem necessary. However, I am interested to learn the age of Mundungus Fletcher. If he is the age of Sirus and Lupin, then Mrs. Figg may be their age as well, to be "the old crowd". But she could just as likely be the grandmotherly figure to Dumbledore's grandfatherly one. 2) Cabbage has a strong connotation. When you read smelled or tasted like cabbage you can easily bring forth the strong smell or taste associated with it. Chocolate is often used, and there is no debate regarding that. Chocolate brings forth many feelings, taste, smells, as well. They are generally the same with most people, I would guess. Chocolate is often comforting, how often do we read or see about some eating a great deal of chocolate because they are depressed? So isn't it possible that cabbage is used in all the situations to emphasis the strong smell or taste of the discussed place or potion. As for the Sirus/Mrs. Figg connection, I find this theory very interesting and plausible. It makes me wonder about a few things. 1) Sirus visiting Mrs. Figg as well as seeing Harry. How did Sirus know where Harry was? He has apparently been out of the loop only picking up on what he gathered from Azkaban discussions and read in "The Daily Prophet." How hidden is Harry's summer location? Voldermort obviously knows that Harry is greatly protected and he can't get to him at the Dursley's, but does he know Harry is at the Dursley's? Was Harry's location and heavy protection discussed at Azkaban by DE when they arrived? Lupin didn't believe that Sirus was innocent until he saw Peter on the map. While Mrs. Figg may have been in "the old crowd", she would unlikely have been as close to Sirus as Lupin, one of his 3 best friends. Therefore I find it unlikely she would have believed him, visited him at Azkaban, or told him where Harry was, but possible as I cannot figure any other way he would know. 2) Sirus is asked to alert the old crowd. Are we to assume that Figg and Fletcher know/believe in Sirus innocence now? It is possible that Lupin or Dumbledore alerted them, but is it very likely. How would they react to the Sirus Black they have believed him to be the last 13+ years? While possible Lupin could have accompanied him, or even gone alone after alerted by Sirus, this is also flawed. While I am sure Fletcher and Figg are of a similar mindset to DD and more excepting than most, wouldn't they have to be overly trusting to believe a werewolf and a "convicted" serial killer's story of the Dark Lord being resurrected by a dead wizard? So do they know and believe Sirus to be innocent already, are they as accepting as DD and will believe his story easily, or will their be trouble when he arrives. 3) There has been much speculation on Figg being the new DADA teacher. We can assume she would be qualified, as she has been protecting Harry at the Dursley's all of these years against the Dark Arts. We could also assume that this defense has been good enough to either stop attempts by Voldermort or some Death Eaters or stop them from even trying. There is also speculation that their are more wizards in the Privet Drive area working with Figg. Could these be Fletcher and Lupin? What would have convinced DD that Lupin would have been a good DADA teacher. We have no evidence from any of the stories of his past to support a great knowledge of DA. Perhaps it was his protection of Harry that convinced DD of his expertise. It makes sense that they would be near each other for him to alert them and stay with Lupin, which also puts him watching over Harry at the Dursley's. DD made it easier for Sirus to watch Harry in GOF, the cave, the pumpkin patch, even though Harry is especially protected at Hogwarts he is allowed to watch over him, why not at the Dursley's as well? Stacie From rbroeker at hotmail.com Wed Jan 15 18:02:05 2003 From: rbroeker at hotmail.com (beccafran ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 18:02:05 -0000 Subject: Invisibility cloaks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49825 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dicentra63 " wrote: [re: the "teenage boy" lying in the flowerbeds in OoP] > Or it's Draco. He's found himself an invisibility cloak and he's > lying in wait. Only he forgets that *everyone* can see his body print > flattening the pansies. Sorry to distract from the OoP speculation, but here's a thought: Do Invisibility Cloaks count as using magic outside of school? Could Harry use his to hide from the Dursleys without fear of MoM reprocussions? I'm betting he could, since he had the Sneak-o-scope outside of Hogwarts, and it is, IMO, a similarly useful magical object. BeccaFran (who is getting precious little work done today what with all the excitement) From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Wed Jan 15 18:21:10 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 10:21:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Flowerbeds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030115182110.21604.qmail@web40502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49826 > Cindy wrote: > > > Cindy -- who thinks the first Flint is the fact that Harry is > lying > > in a flower bed face *up* when everyone knows you are supposed to > > lie in flower beds face *down* > > No, it's Ron. He knows Fleur is about to visit Harry. > I think it's Harry. He was crucio'd by the Death Eaters and is lying unconscious, having been saved in the nick of time by Mrs. Figg from an Avada Kedavra. Another possible scenario: It's Colin Creevey, who is now an even more rabid HP fan, so he decides to live in his front yard so he can see him more often. maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From andie at knownet.net Wed Jan 15 18:15:37 2003 From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 18:15:37 -0000 Subject: Harry's tears In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49827 Becca writes: I don't think that he actually does manage to cry on Mrs. Weasley's > shoulder. He fights the sob that is struggling to break through (I > really shouldn't quote without the books), but is interrupted by > Hermione's capture of Bug!Skeeter. > BUT-- Harry does cry in POA when he's working with Lupin to learn the > patronus. He "comes to" and his face is wet with tears. He looks down > and pretends to tie his shoe so Lupin won't notice. > > Becca, lurker supreme. Now me! I'm glad someone agrees that that was an official cry! I actually did notice this later (1/10/03). (See my quoted post below!) What with the rumors in OoP, I'm thinking we will probably get to have more posts in the future with this topic. ** Pause for a squeak regarding the release date and snippets from the book! :) *** grindieloe my post from 1/10/03: grindieloe writes: I hate to go back to this topic again... but I thought of a #4 to add to the following list... :) #4. If I remember correctly, while Harry is taking anti-dementor lessons from Lupin, he also sheds a few tears when he is saying how his father was trying to give his mother and himself time to run for it... Harry pretended to be doing up his shoe laces to hide his emotions from Lupin. grindieloe From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Wed Jan 15 18:26:58 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 10:26:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Invisibility cloaks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030115182658.17280.qmail@web40507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49828 "beccafran " wrote: Sorry to distract from the OoP speculation, but here's a thought: Do Invisibility Cloaks count as using magic outside of school? Could Harry use his to hide from the Dursleys without fear of MoM reprocussions? Me: They count as *using* magic, which is the way you put your question, but not as *doing* magic, since he isn't casting a spell or even making a potion. It's just a magical object like the Weasleys' car. But why would Harry want to hide from the Dursleys? No, that's not what I meant - what's the sense in doing it? Harry has to eat, after all, and walk around, etc. They'd notice. Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sgarfio at yahoo.com Wed Jan 15 18:28:53 2003 From: sgarfio at yahoo.com (Sherry Garfio) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 10:28:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Quidditch: Ron, Wizarding population and the rules In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030115182853.84426.qmail@web21409.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49829 Oh, happy day! And isn't it amazing how much this group can read into a mere 6 sentences of OoP??? Now, on to my reply: Ali wrote: > Much has been said about Ron the strategist and Ron the Quidditch > devotee, but has anyone questioned why his favourite team is so > lacklustre? Echoing again Debbie's suggestion that Quidditch is a > Metaphor for the unfolding story in the Potterverse, can anything be > read into the fact that Ron is passionate about a team who's motto is > "let's all just keep our fingers crossed and hope for the best" (QTTA > p.33). > > Whilst it is true that team support often runs geographically or > through families, it is also true that fans follow success. In > Britain this is particularly true of youngsters flocking in their > droves to support Manchester United. Ron though is loyal to a team > who on recent performance (i.e. the last century) have little hope of > success, yet his greatest desire in life is to be successful. We see > this in his vision of upholding the Quidditch cup and becoming Head > Boy in the Mirror of Erised. Ron appears confused, fighting between > mediocrity (as represented by his love of the "Canons" and his > feelings about poverty) and his desire for attainment and success. I see this as evidence that Ron's loyalty is greater than his ambition. He clings to a team that has seen better days in the hope that they will once again someday (I know how this feels as I am a Denver Broncos fan). In the same way, he will stick with Harry no matter how dark things get, which, considering who Harry's enemies are, could be very dark indeed. Maybe the Cannons will recruit Krum or some other star player, and suddenly turn around and become a huge success. If Quidditch is indeed a metaphor for the unfolding story, then this could foreshadow Harry's eventual defeat of Voldemort. Especially if it happens near the end of the series and things are looking really, really bad for The Good Side. Or, maybe Ron will abandon his beloved Cannons in favor of the team du jour, which would foreshadow Ron's betrayal of Harry that some on this list have speculated will happen (please, no!). In any case, you've got me thinking that maybe we should pay more attention to Ron's team. Sherry ===== "The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above-average drivers." -Dave Barry, "Things That It Took Me 50 Years to Learn" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From jodel at aol.com Wed Jan 15 18:54:27 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 13:54:27 EST Subject: Hermione's other friends Message-ID: <54.763edee.2b570863@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49830 Sunffles comments; << There is very little mention of Hermione having any other friends but Harry and Ron. >> Little direct mention, true. But it's there if you read between the lines. We don't get much mention of it because Hermione's other friends are over in Ravenclaw. Take another look at the conversation between the trio when the subject of the Yle Ball first comes up. One of the first things Hermione does is to make a half-hearted effort to fix Ron up with Mandy Brocklehurst. Mandy is a Ravenclaw from their own year. Now, at this point we don't know that Gryffandor has ever shared *any* class with Ravenclaw. (They may have, but we've not been told of it.) So how does Hermione pull Mandy's name out of her hat, unless she and Mandy know eadh other outside of the classes that she shares witrh Harry and Ron. The two of them may both be taking Arithmancy, or Runes. Or they may simply have met and "clicked" in the Library. (And how much of the time does Hermione spend in the library *with* her friends from Ravenclaw? Hm?) If you look back over the course of the series; Hermione probably was solitary, or only associated with the boys during book 1. This was a whole new world for her, and she is not particularly outgoing. She also probably did not spend a lot of time with students outside Gryffandor. Unless a secondary theory of mine has some grounds, that she tagged along after Percy -- who we saw being kind to her at the start of term feast -- and he introduced her to an informal, interhouse study group largely composed of Ravenclaws who hang out in the library. Canon support for this possibility is the fact that when the Basilisk caught up with her in 2nd year, she was in company with Penelope Clearwater, who is at least three years older and a Ravenclaw prefect. She must have known Penelope well enough to be aware that Penelope was also Muggle-born, and to be confident of being able to aproach her with her warning and explain her belief that the monster they were dealing with was a Basilisk without being rebuffed. This becomes readily explainable if she knew Penelope through Percy. During book 2 she spent a good third of the year either furry or petrified in the hospital wing. (Might even have made some contact with other students outside her House there.) By the time she was petrified it is clear from the circumstances that she already was at least known and trusted by some of the Ravenclaws. Given Percy's [perfectly understandable] skittishness about letting his relationship with Penelope be generally known, he is likely to have introduced Hermione to a group of Ravenclaws, rather than just to his own girlfriend. But, then, I suspect that Percy has also always hung out with the 'Claws. During book 3 she was taking every elective course that Hogwarts offered. Each student appears to be required to take at least two elective classes. The elective classes appear to be interhouse. Consequently, she will have met every other student in her year at some point during book 3. If she had not already formed friendly relationships with some of them before this point, there was opportunity to do so during this year. Year three was also [understandably] the year that Hermione really appeared to be "living in the library". With her friends outside of Gryffandor. Year 4 was the year that I think she put much of her own social life on hold for Harry's sake. After the Goblet spat out his name he was largely persona non grata throughout the school and his best friend was conspicuously not speaking to him. In addition to the S.P.E.W. campaign, Hermione pretty well devioted herself to keepng him company and coaching him to survive the First Task. After the First Task, and the breech with Ron had been healed over she still was his first line of defense on researching spells for the other tasks. Once he and Ron were back on best-buds status, she had a bit more time for her own social contacts, and, once again, these took place in the library. It was in the month between the First Task and the Yule Ball that Victor Kurm entered the picture. I suspect that Mandy could also claim some degree of aquaintance with Krum. In fact, I find myself wondering whether Mandy has a crush on Ron, and, knowing that Hermione was going to the Ball with Krum, asked Hermione to put in a good word with him for her. In short, while I wouldn't say that Hermione has a broad, rich, social life, she does *have* a social life. It just happens to be outside Gryffandor tower. -JOdel From srsiriusblack at aol.com Wed Jan 15 18:54:45 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 13:54:45 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's knowledge (OOP) Message-ID: <1a1.f16ae66.2b570875@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49831 In a message dated 15/01/2003 11:07:21 Eastern Standard Time, rvotaw at i-55.com writes: > This is exactly what I thought. I'm wondering if he won't after all be the > death in Book 5. Or if he will die early in Book 6, depending on which > part of > Book 5 that was in. Could be all the way at the end, as a conclusion. I'm > also > wondering what exactly happens to make Dumbledore say he's going to tell > Harry "what I should have told you five years ago. . . . I'm going to tell > you > everything." Everything? Wow. So why has Dumbledore now changed his mind > and > decided he should've told Harry everything to start with? When Harry asked > > various things in SS/PS in the hospital wing, Dumbledore said he couldn't > tell > him--yet. Now he thinks he should've told him then. Why? > > Also, I can't help but wonder. Why is Harry lying flat on his back in a > flowerbed?!? Tackling the seemingly easier question first- I don't know. ;) Maybe he is just soaking up the warmth of the day and thinking. Maybe the Dursleys have left him and gone on holiday and he is enjoying every last bit of freedom their absence gives him- including laying flat on his back in Petunia's precious flowerbed. Or- more likely, his scar. On to the more difficult question- Dumbledore has always tried to protect Harry in every facet. I think there is information yet to come from him that may have upset, frightened, etc Harry in his younger years. But, as we see in GoF, Dumbledore tells Harry that he did more than anyone could have expected even an adult wizard to do when facing Voldemort. Although, I am hoping for a deeper darker secret to be revealed. There all kinds of theories on Dumbledore in this discussion group, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of them actually do come into fruition with what Dumbly-dore ( I just love Madame Maxime) is to reveal to Harry. We don't a great deal about him. ( "Dumbledore, great Man" and the like aside). Don't get me wrong, I do not want to find out that he is evil or was evil in any way, but I have a sneaking suspicion that something completely unexpected will be revealed. The deception of Voldemort has been great. He and his D.E.s controlled people and made them do horrible things... I think it is here where we might see some revelations. Also, I think Dumbledore will better explain why he really left Harry with the Dursleys and what kind of protection was granted to Harry while in their care. -Snuffles who just preorder five different editions in different languages because she is such a HP nerd "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Wed Jan 15 19:01:30 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 11:01:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Flowerbed and Dumbledore's Flint (OOP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030115190130.72347.qmail@web13007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49832 "bluesqueak " wrote: No, no no. Harry [or Dudley] is lying in a flower bed face *up* because someone or something has hit him in the face. This has made him fall *backwards* into the flowerbed, landing on his back with face up. Me: I'm finding it rather funny that we're so desperate at this point that we're taking the tiny morsels that have been tossed to us and finding a million different ways to interpret them. ;) The first thing I thought of is that someone leaked to JKR my fic (or one of the zillions of fics) about Harry's fifth year beginning with his spending the summer gardening. It seemed, with this image stuck in my mind, that JKR obviously had him flat on his back because he had collapsed with exhaustion after a day's work in the garden (especially if it was the hottest day of the summer), and that the next thing we are likely to read is a description of Petunia screeching like mad about his crushing her precious flowers...(I didn't write that--this isn't a fanfic post, believe me! ) Well, maybe not the next thing. I think JKR will probably have the usual sort of recap of what's happened to Harry before, the fact that he's a famous wizard, yada yada yada. But the next ACTION described HAS to be Petunia noticing him in the flower bed and throwing a fit, IMHO... I will also go out on a limb and suggest that the day the book starts, it is July 30, and that the next day will be his fifteenth birthday. There. Now I will get ready to have egg on my face on June 21 when I'm shown to be dreadfully wrong... "bluesqueak " wrote: The soon to be notorious Dumbledore quote: "what I should have told you five years ago. . . . I'm going to tell you everything." Whether 'five years ago' is a Flint or not, the more important speculation is that these lines ... ... are of course, said to Harry in the hospital, at the end of term... ... and will be the last lines in OoP. ;0) Me: Don't know about that. Sticking with her usual book structure, I'm guessing this would be in the penultimate chapter, the final one dealing with the usual leaving feast and train ride home. I do expect the ending to be bittersweet, and that the above conversation comes after the death that was very hard for her to write. (Is Dumbledore, in the above passage, possibly feeling guilty about that death? Gah. So little material, so much speculation...) Waiting eagerly for the summer solstice, --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From srsiriusblack at aol.com Wed Jan 15 19:05:53 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:05:53 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's Flint (OOP) Message-ID: <194.1394c1d5.2b570b11@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49833 In a message dated 15/01/2003 12:14:28 Eastern Standard Time, dorigen at hotmail.com writes: > Why does everyone assume the teenager is Harry? Dudley Dursley is a > teenager, too. He probably fell off his skateboard or something -- possibly > > assisted by Harry (accidentally), Dobby (deliberately), or by Harry's > protection (unknown at that point). Good point- maybe it is Ron! ( now my theories are flying) Ron comes to Privet Drive from the Burrow to see Harry for his birthday and Vernon beats him unconscious for having the audacity to come near his house. Anything could happen Or, what if Dudley let something slip at school and someone came for a peek at the abnormal Harry? Or... Draco comes to kill Harry to gain standing with his father and Voldemort, but the magic protecting the house knocks him out because he is coming with malicious intent. I actually like that one. It seems like something Draco would do... and since Harry and Co. over cursed Draco and Crew on the Hogwarts Express at the end of GoF, Draco probably wants revenge. Which also brings up another question I have been pondering.... How are students who support Voldemort going to get through the coming years at Hogwarts? Certainly there will be great tension, but with the MoM presumably falling apart how will their activities truly be monitored and how will DD and staff keep them in line, treat them, etc.? -Snuffles, who is too excited for her own good 'All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Jan 15 19:13:06 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 19:13:06 -0000 Subject: Arabella Figg and cabbage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49834 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "camdenandmo " wrote: > > ...edited... > > As for the Sirus/Mrs. Figg connection, I find this theory very > interesting and plausible. It makes me wonder about a few things. > > 1) Sirus visiting Mrs. Figg as well as seeing Harry. How did Sirus know where > Harry was? > ...edited... > -end this part- bboy_mn: Well, the answer to that questions is easy, therefore I submit that you asked the wrong question. Sirius meet Hagrid at the Potter's wrecked home. Hargird tells Black that he is under Dumbledore's order to take Harry to his blood relatives the Dursley's. It's not establish, but reasonable to assume that since Black was close friends with the Potters, he knew about the Dursleys and may have even know where they lived. Now the question you should have asked. How did he know where to find Mrs. Figg? Assuming he has one type of relationship with her or another. If she is a friend or relative, maybe she visited him, or wrote to him, or fire talked to him in prison, but even those are pretty weak. Maybe he has trusted friends who never believe in his guilt that he could go to when he escaped and they told him. But they would have had to have been pretty close to the situation to be priviledged to that information. -bboy_mn-end this part- > > 2) Sirus is asked to alert the old crowd. Are we to assume that Figg and > Fletcher know/believe in Sirus innocence now? It is possible that Lupin or > Dumbledore alerted them, but is it very likely. ..edited.... > So do they know and believe Sirus to be innocent already, are > they as accepting as DD and will believe his story easily, or will > their be trouble when he arrives. > -end this part- bboy_mn: I've often wondered that myself. If Sirius and Remus are going to visit these people then I have to assume that Dumbledore has or will do something to convince these people that Sirius is innocent. If Dumbledore tells them that several eye witnesses saw Peter alive, that may be enough. But obvoiusly, Dumbledore has to do something or these people are going to FREAK when a werewolf and the most notorious murderer alive come knocking on their door. -bboy_mn-end this part- > 3) There has been much speculation on Figg being the new DADA > teacher. We can assume she would be qualified, as she has been > protecting Harry at the Dursley's all of these years against the > Dark Arts. -end this part- bboy_mn: Yes. We can assume that, but that's all we can do. Personally, that's what I do believe, but again that's just an assumption. -end this part- > 3) continued- > We could also assume that this defense has been good enough to > either stop attempts by Voldermort ...? -end this part- bboy_mn: Voldemort himself said he could not touch Harry when he was in the care of his relations. I guess that covers it. -end this part- > 3) continued- > There is also speculation that their are more wizards in the Privet > Drive area working with Figg. Could these be Fletcher and Lupin? -end this part- bboy_mn: Fletcher is a tough call. The Ministry raided his house, so I'm having trouble picturing that house in the Privit Drive neighborhood. I thought the books made a reference to the part of the country that he lived in, but it's not listed in his profile in the Potter Lexicon. As for Remus, I think a werewolf would probably want to live in a very secluded area. Somehow I think werewolves tend to avoid people as much as people avoid them. It have always been my totally unfounded belief that when Remus is not out traveling, he is at home living with his mother and studying. I'm guessing that his mother encouraged him to use his time productively rather than sit around quaffing ale and feeling sorry for himself. So she encouraged him to study hard with his free time, and that is how he gained enought knowledge to become a professor. But I can't prove a word of it. So in answer to you quesiton, no, I don't think Fletdher and Lupin live near Privit Drive, but I can't prove that either. -boy_mn-end this part- 3) continued- > What would have convinced DD that Lupin would have been a good DADA > teacher. We have no evidence from any of the stories of his past > to support a great knowledge of DA. ...edited... > -end this part > > Stacie bboy_mn: Since Dumbledore was friends with James Potter after they all left Hogwarts, it's safe to assume he was also friends of Sirius and Remus. Which would mean he was well aware of their skill as wizards, and being friends and keeping track of their lives, he was knowledgable of their skill and accomplishments over their lives. The evidents in the story that support Dumbledore's knowledge it then, as I have said, the fact that they were friends. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Wed Jan 15 19:17:15 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:17:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Can Real Wizards Apologize? WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Flowerbed and Dumbledore (OOP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030115191715.92390.qmail@web20415.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49835 > "Dumbledore lowered his hands and surveyed Harry > through his half- > moon glasses. > > `It is time,' he said, `for me to tell you what I > should have told > you five years ago, Harry. > > Please sit down. I am going to tell you > everything.'" Everyone, pay close attention. "Should have." As we all know, Real Wizards Don't Apologize. Is Dumbledore about to do the unexpected, and utterly shocking: Apologize for something? That would bang all right! Of course, since Real Wizards Don't Apologize, don't expect the revelation to be too shocking. We can't expect them to wrap their heads around the concept in the space of a few chapters. Eileen PS. Still, Doesn't it sound like he's about to reveal MAGIC DISHWASHER? ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Jan 15 19:43:52 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 19:43:52 -0000 Subject: Flowerbed and Dumbledore's Flint (OOP) In-Reply-To: <20030115190130.72347.qmail@web13007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49836 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barb wrote: > > "bluesqueak " wrote: > No, no no. Harry [or Dudley] is lying in a flower bed face *up* because someone or something has hit him in the face. This has made him fall *backwards* into the flowerbed, landing on his back with face up. > > > > Me: (barb) > > ...edited... It seemed, with this image stuck in my mind, that JKR obviously had him flat on his back because he had collapsed with exhaustion after a day's work in the garden (especially if it was the hottest day of the summer), and that the next thing we are likely to read is a description of Petunia screeching like mad about his crushing her precious flowers...(I didn't write that--this isn't a fanfic post, believe me! ) -end this part- bboy_mn: Or maybe, he was tugging on a particularly stubborn weed that suddenly gave way, and sent him flying over backwards into the flower bed. The theme being the very unglamours life of the most famous wizard in the UK. Ron:'Still famous Harry?' Harry:'Not where I'm going.' That unglamours fall lead to thoughtful reflection, yada-yada and so the story begin.... -bboy_mn-end this part- > > "bluesqueak " wrote: > > The soon to be notorious Dumbledore quote: > > "what I should have told you five years ago. . . . I'm going to > tell you everything." > > Whether 'five years ago' is a Flint or not, the more important > speculation is that these lines ... ... are of course, said to > Harry in the hospital, at the end of term... > > ... and will be the last lines in OoP. ;0) > > > Me: (barb) > > ... I'm guessing this would be in the penultimate chapter, the > final one dealing with the usual leaving feast and train ride home. > ...edited... > > Waiting eagerly for the summer solstice, > > --Barb bboy_mn: First, "five years"; it's a generalization. Next, telling Harry. There is only so much you can dump on the shoulders of an 11 year old boy. A boy who's shoulders are already carrying a pretty heavy load. There are lots of things Harry wants to know; desparately wants to know, but those are the same things the he is well aware that he is not ready or able to know. He knows they are important and he knows that they are significant, and most of all he is well aware that that knowledge is going to be a very heavy load to bear. But, at the sametime that he and everyone else is protecting himself for that burden of knowledge, he and they are well are that the time will come when, whether he wants to or not, he will have to know. He's 15 now, not 11, and Voldemort is back, whether he wants to or not, it's finally time to know. I think it will start with Harry finally asking the Dursleys what was in the letter that Dumbledore wrote. That knowledge will prompt him to ask Dumbledore more question, some of which Dumbledore will still refuse to answer. But things will go so bad and get so desparate, that Dumbledore and Harry will have no choice but to accept that the time for full disclosure has finally come. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. bboy_mn From voldemort at tut.by Wed Jan 15 19:54:03 2003 From: voldemort at tut.by (Alexander) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 21:54:03 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quidditch Miscellania In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <734013104.20030115215403@tut.by> No: HPFGUIDX 49837 Greetings! > Ali wrote: AAzo> At Hogwarts, at any one time there are only 28 first AAzo> team players. If Hogwarts is the only Wizarding school AAzo> in the country (here I'll take JKR's words at face AAzo> value), then it would not be unreasonable to assume AAzo> that the majority of these players would go on to play AAzo> professional Quidditch. Where else are the players AAzo> from the Professional Leagues 13 teams recruited from? AAzo> The only professional Quidditch players mentioned in AAzo> QTTA seem to have had careers of around 12 years AAzo> (Kevin & Karl Broadmoor, 11 years; Darren O'Hare, 13 AAzo> years; Hamish MacFarlan, 11 years) which is not so AAzo> different to the careers of professional footballers AAzo> (as in soccer) in the English Football League. Yet, AAzo> despite this, Oliver Wood, captain and keeper of the AAzo> successful Gryffindor team manages to secure only the AAzo> position of a reserve keeper and the 3 Weasleys all AAzo> choose alternate careers. Perhaps foreign players keep AAzo> the Professional League afloat? Well, considering these numbers, we get that "at the average", 7 professional Quidditch players stop their careers, while only 4 Quidditch players graduate from Hogwarts. Now, there are reserve players in Hogwarts teams as well. Probably enough to double the "graduating" number. But as we know, many of graduating Quidditch players don't go into professional sport. At the same time, I find it unlikely that foreign players are reinforcing British Quidditch teams. At least I have found no reasons to think so, and my general impression from GoF and QTTA doesn't fit with this theory either. Solution can probably found in suggesting that not all kids go to Hogwarts. AAzo> Quidditch rules. QTTA provides us with a framework for AAzo> Quidditch rules. However, this leaves many questions. AAzo> I'd like to refer to Shaun's Haterley's suggestion AAzo> that Quidditch must operate on 2 levels: school AAzo> Quidditch and Professional Quidditch. I would AAzo> definitely agree that this is likely, but these AAzo> differences can only be imagined. Without any further AAzo> information I would have to assume that the rules we AAzo> are given refer to both Hogwarts and Professional AAzo> Quidditch. Not quite so. While game rules are the same in school and in the championship, strategies differ considerably. In the World Cup, if you lose, you are kicked out. In the School Cup, if you lose, you lessen your chances, but you still participate in the Big Game. This has a great influence on strategy, as we see in PoA. AAzo> This would lay Hogwarts' students open to the AAzo> possibility of month long games. Perhaps it is only AAzo> the strategy of the teams themselves and the skill AAzo> of the seekers, which prevents this from happening. Well, I think that as soon as score gap reaches several hundred, everybody will forget about the Quaffle and will start looking for Snitch, in order to "finish this damn game at last". ;) AAzo> I know that there are circumstances when Harry needs AAzo> to catch the Snitch quickly bad weather, Snape AAzo> refereeing, or as in the case of the "Quidditch Final" AAzo> only a set number of points that need be achieved AAzo> before Harry's Snitch catching would win the game. AAzo> But, I do wonder why there has not been any further AAzo> discussion on Harry delaying catching the Snitch until AAzo> Gryffindor has a certain point ratio. Perhaps Shaun is AAzo> right, and school Quidditch does not need such AAzo> tactics. In fact, it's School Quidditch which *does* need them. ;) AAzo> I'm slightly confused. Wood tells Harry that he thinks AAzo> that the record for a professional match is 3 months. AAzo> "They had to keep bringing on substitutes so the AAzo> players could get some sleep". (PS/SS UK edition AAzo> p.125). This contrasts with Rule 5 in QTTA (p.28 UK AAzo> edition): In the case of injury no substitution of AAzo> players will take place. The team will play on without AAzo> the injured player. This inconsistency is either a AAzo> Flint, or the rule about no substitutions is AAzo> relatively recent and actually serves to shorten the AAzo> length of the match. I have always had an impression that "substitute for injury" applies only when injured player touches the ground. That is, if you have been injured and touched the ground, no replacement for you dear. But I may be wrong of course. BTW is there anybody to discuss Quidditch strategy and tactics with? AAzo> really excited about finally reading OoP on June 21 - AAzo> hurrah! June 21? Whoops... I was hoping for April the latest... :( Sincerely yours, Alexander Lomski, Gryffindor/Slytherin crossbreed, great supporter of McGonagall/Crookshanks SHIP. ----- "Porry Hatter! I have been told your owl is made of iron! Is it so?" "Of course not, professor! Iron is too heavy a metal. I had to use an alloy..." ("Porry Hatter and Stone Philosopher") From editor at texas.net Wed Jan 15 19:57:32 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 19:57:32 -0000 Subject: Can Real Wizards Apologize? WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Flowerbed and Dumbledore (OOP) In-Reply-To: <20030115191715.92390.qmail@web20415.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49838 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Eileen wrote: > > "Dumbledore lowered his hands and surveyed Harry > > through his half- > > moon glasses. > > > > `It is time,' he said, `for me to tell you what I > > should have told > > you five years ago, Harry. > > > > Please sit down. I am going to tell you > > everything.'" > > Everyone, pay close attention. "Should have." > > As we all know, Real Wizards Don't Apologize. Is > Dumbledore about to do the unexpected, and utterly > shocking: Apologize for something? > > That would bang all right! Ah. I had a thought. This particular snippet was not released by JKR. This was released by the conscienceless, soulless PDs (publicity dementors) of a popular entertainment venue. The same sorts of people, who, in an earlier age, wrote the "cliffhangers" at the end of serial installments. So. For those of you who know to what I refer--recall, then, that cliffhangers almost *always* seemed to promise one thing, but what they actually delivered was very different. I submit that this is misdirection from the PDs, and we won't actually find out everything until Book 7. Scenarios? Harry could be dreaming. Dumbledore could be interrupted by something he cannot ignore and never finish, and then die. Dumbledore could still qualify what he means by "everything." Etc. Just thought I'd toss that cheery little idea out. ~Amandageist From dehavensangel at hotmail.com Wed Jan 15 19:31:26 2003 From: dehavensangel at hotmail.com (shinesse ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 19:31:26 -0000 Subject: Arabella Figg and cabbage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49839 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "camdenandmo " wrote: > 1) Sirus visiting Mrs. Figg as well as seeing Harry. How did Sirus know where > Harry was? He has apparently been out of the loop only picking up on what > he gathered from Azkaban discussions and read in "The Daily Prophet." How > hidden is Harry's summer location? To me I think it would be pretty easy to know where Harry is, I mean in the beginning of SS Harry recalls lots of "unusal" people looking at him like they know him. They might not know exactly but it seems they at least know the area. (SS, pg. 30) "Yet sometimes he thought (or maybe hoped) that strangers in the street seemed to know him. Very strange strangers they were, too." The paragraph goes on to describe these people. Later when Hagrid takes him to the Leaky Cauldron he remembers one of these people and they are so happy that he remembers them. People tend to talk in my experience. I mean Harry is "the boy that lived". Sirus could have overheard a converstation and figured out from there where Harry lived. dehavensangel *doing the happy dance while waiting for June 21st.* From john at sunstoneonline.com Wed Jan 15 20:03:56 2003 From: john at sunstoneonline.com (John Hatch) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 13:03:56 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Flowerbed and Dumbledore's Flint (OOP) References: <20030115190130.72347.qmail@web13007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001a01c2bcd1$3ccf4ac0$0e00a8c0@Sunstone.sunstoneonline> No: HPFGUIDX 49840 Barb writes: I'm finding it rather funny that we're so desperate at this point that we're taking the tiny morsels that have been tossed to us and finding a million different ways to interpret them. ;) [more snipped] The soon to be notorious Dumbledore quote: "what I should have told you five years ago. . . . I'm going to tell you everything." Me: This quote is enough to get any Harry Potter fan as excited as winning the Quidditch World Cup. But this is just a couple of lines in what sounds like an enormous book. It could mean anything (although it is fun to speculate). My theory is we won't even get a chance to hear what Dumbledore is supposed to tell Harry. It wouldn't be the first time a character wanted to say something in a Harry Potter book and was interrupted by another event. Imagine Hagrid or another character bursting in just as Dumbledore is about to open his mouth. He gets up to leave, perhaps never to return, given all that we've heard about death in the upcoming books. John ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. This message was checked by MailScan for WorkgroupMail. www.workgroupmail.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dehavensangel at hotmail.com Wed Jan 15 20:07:20 2003 From: dehavensangel at hotmail.com (shinesse ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 20:07:20 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's knowledge (OOP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49841 David said: >"Dumbledore lowered his hands and surveyed Harry through his half- moon glasses. `It is time,' he said, `for me to tell you what I should have told you five years ago, Harry. Please sit down. I am going to tell you everything.'" Elkins and others have commented on how the legacy items Harry depends on - mother's protection, map, cloak - are failing him as the story goes on. Taken at face value, the above quote ('everything') implies that Dumbledore's usefulness is about to run out. His power and wisdom may still have value, but any mysteries in books 6 and 7 will be as unknown to Dumbledore as to us. His omniscience will be at an end.< Richelle said: >This is exactly what I thought. I'm wondering if he won't after all be the death in Book 5. Or if he will die early in Book 6, depending on which part of Book 5 that was in. Could be all the way at the end, as a conclusion. I'm also wondering what exactly happens to make Dumbledore say he's going to tell Harry "what I should have told you five years ago. . . . I'm going to tell you everything." Everything? Wow. So why has Dumbledore now changed his mind and decided he should've told Harry everything to start with? When Harry asked various things in SS/PS in the hospital wing, Dumbledore said he couldn't tell him--yet. Now he thinks he should've told him then. Why?< me: I agree with that as well. But IMO I think DD knows he's end is near. I would hate to see DD go, but in some ways it makes sense. There comes a time when your mentor is gone and you have to go on. DD in his wisdom knows that this and true and feels that its time tell Harry everything so that Harry can go on knowing the truth. Why did he wait? Well I think he waited cause it would have been to much for him to take in when he 1st started Hogwarts. Harry had after all just learned about his parents and how they died. He also learned about who he really is and what that means. Its alot for someone to take in, no matter what age. After he could have told him but things just kept happening and he put it off. Thinking maybe he wouldn't have too. But with the return of LV he knows that it has to be done. That one quote though brings so much speculation to my head. So many questions and so little answers. What does DD know? Is he related to Harry?(a question that I know has been asked before) Why was LV after the Potter's? Was he even after James and Lily or was Harry the real target all along? (don't know if this has been asked before but something I always wondered about. Not sure if this is the exact quote but didn't LV say to Lily "step aside" when he came after her. It's always seemed to me that he was after Harry. Maybe he knew that Harry would be the wizard to kill him so he thought "why not kill him before his powers grow." *if this has been brought up before sorry my mind is going wild with ideas.) dehavensangel ~not sure she can wait till June 21st without her mind exploding~ From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed Jan 15 20:25:28 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 20:25:28 -0000 Subject: Flowerbed and Dumbledore's Flint (OOP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49842 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C. " > wrote: > > > Cindy -- who thinks the first Flint is the fact that Harry is > lying > > in a flower bed face *up* when everyone knows you are supposed to > > lie in flower beds face *down* > > No, no no. Harry [or Dudley] is lying in a flower bed face *up* > because someone or something has hit him in the face. This has made > him fall *backwards* into the flowerbed, landing on his back with > face up. > Annemehr: It's Harry in the flowerbed. I came up with two possible reasons for this, while vacuuming the living room... 1)It became suddenly neccessary for Harry to have a dream about Voldemort, but the hapless kid was *awake*, walking around outside. Therefore, his scar just knocked him out and gave him the dream there and then. In this case, Cindy is right -- the fact that he was lying face-up *is* a FLINT, but it's because everyone knows that Harry sleeps on his stomach. 2)Voldemort believed he had figured out a way to overcome Harry's protection at Privet Drive and was nearly right -- Harry has just barely survived an attack (nothing like getting right down to business, right?). > The soon to be notorious Dumbledore quote: > > "what I should have told you five years ago. . . . I'm going > to tell you everything." > > Whether 'five years ago' is a Flint or not, the more important > speculation is that these lines ... > ... are of course, said to Harry in the hospital, at the end of > term... > > ... and will be the last lines in OoP. ;0) > > Pip!Squeak Verrrry funny, Pip (I don't think...)! This had *better* be near the beginning, or else millions of people are going to head straight for the back of the book, looking for it! Annemehr who realises she has until June 21 to choose a Shrieking Shack scenario as her very own, as promised in TBAY... From joym999 at aol.com Wed Jan 15 21:04:54 2003 From: joym999 at aol.com (joywitch_m_curmudgeon ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 21:04:54 -0000 Subject: Nitpicking already? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49845 As everyone has undoubtedly heard by now, one of the two snippets of OoP released by Bloomsbury today has Dumbledore saying: "It is time ... for me to tell you what I should have told you five years ago, Harry. Please sit down. I am going to tell you everything." But the timeline of first four HP books goes from July just before the school year to June at the end of the school year, and OoP takes place in Harry's FIFTH year at Hogwarts. Five years before anytime during Harry's fifth year at Hogwarts would have been in the year just before Harry entered Hogwarts, sometime before SS/PS. How could Dumbledore have told Harry anything BEFORE Harry entered Hogwarts? Shouldn't that be FOUR years ago? --Joywitch M. Curmudgeon From jayemelle at earthlink.net Wed Jan 15 20:51:23 2003 From: jayemelle at earthlink.net (tesseract197 ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 20:51:23 -0000 Subject: Flowerbed and Dumbledore's Flint (OOP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49846 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak " wrote: > The soon to be notorious Dumbledore quote: > > "what I should have told you five years ago. . . . I'm going > to tell you everything." > > Whether 'five years ago' is a Flint or not, the more important > speculation is that these lines ... > ... are of course, said to Harry in the hospital, at the end of > term... > > ... and will be the last lines in OoP. ;0) > > Pip!Squeak Me: As terrifying (Nooo!!!) as that possibility is, I cling to the hope that JKR will hold to tradition and end the book with the kids exiting the train and safely reentering the Muggle world, instead of all of a sudden starting up with cliffhangers. Ending the book with these lines would be too horrible for words--after all, who knows how long it'll be before we see Book 6? *keeping fingers crossed* Tess *who had planned on seeing "The Two Towers" in theaters today but is now entirely too caught up in the HP universe to switch gears and think about Middle-Earth* From john at queerasjohn.com Wed Jan 15 21:09:51 2003 From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 21:09:51 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Nitpicking already? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49847 joywitch_m_curmudgeon said: > But the timeline of first four HP books goes from July just before > the school year to June at the end of the school year, and OoP takes > place in Harry's FIFTH year at Hogwarts. Five years before anytime > during Harry's fifth year at Hogwarts would have been in the year > just before Harry entered Hogwarts, sometime before SS/PS. How could > Dumbledore have told Harry anything BEFORE Harry entered Hogwarts? > Shouldn't that be FOUR years ago? As someone on my LiveJournal pointed out, the quote possibly takes place at the end of Book 5. I conjecture that it's Dumbledore's last gasp at Basil Exposition before he dies, which he has to if JKR is using the hero-boy genre as a model. Not that she is, of course. --J ______________________________________ Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com "There's nowt as queer as folk." --English proverb ______________________________________ From sevothtarte at gmx.net Wed Jan 15 13:39:02 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:39:02 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quidditch: Ron, Wizarding population and the rules Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49848 Ali: >Whilst it is true that team support often runs geographically or >through families, it is also true that fans follow success. In >Britain this is particularly true of youngsters flocking in their >droves to support Manchester United. Ron's not the type to change loyalities easily, Draco's more the person to support whichever team is the most successful at the moment. Also, Ron who is a kind of underdog in society (poor family) as well as in his family life (all those successfull brothers) probably feels a strong bond to a team which apparently is the biggest underdog of all. As for the comparison to the youngsters supporting ManU: there still are a lot of kids who stay true to their teams, why should it be different in the WW? There are probably even more by comparison since traditionalism plays a huge role in the WW. >I'm slightly confused. Wood tells Harry that he thinks that the >record for a professional match is 3 months. "They had to keep >bringing on substitutes so the players could get some sleep". (PS/SS >UK edition p.125). This contrasts with Rule 5 in QTTA (p.28 UK >edition): In the case of injury no substitution of players will take >place. The team will play on without the injured player. This >inconsistency is either a Flint, or the rule about no substitutions >is relatively recent and actually serves to shorten the length of the >match. There's a difference between injury and exhaustion. Maybe substitues are only allowed if the game lasts very long (we don't know when they started bringing them in in that three months game) and both the team captains and the referee agree on it. Also, perhaps there is a rule in professional Quidditch for the game to be a draw if the Snitch isn't caught after a certain time, but that game was a kind of cup final which had to have a winner. Torsten From jayemelle at earthlink.net Wed Jan 15 21:13:04 2003 From: jayemelle at earthlink.net (tesseract197 ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 21:13:04 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's knowledge (OOP) In-Reply-To: <1a1.f16ae66.2b570875@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49849 In a message dated 15/01/2003 11:07:21 Eastern Standard Time, rvotaw at i... writes: Also, I can't help but wonder. Why is Harry lying flat on his back in a flowerbed?!? Snuffles: Tackling the seemingly easier question first- I don't know. ;) Maybe he is just soaking up the warmth of the day and thinking. Maybe the Dursleys have left him and gone on holiday and he is enjoying every last bit of freedom their absence gives him- including laying flat on his back in Petunia's precious flowerbed. Or- more likely, his scar. Me: Sorry for the double post *newbie ducks to avoid things being thrown at her* but I'm glad I'm not the only one to have thought of a relatively innocuous reason for Harry (if the teenager is indeed Harry) to be lying in a flowerbed. My first thought was a happy one about the Dursleys having left him alone for a moment and Harry being able to relax and enjoy the day, although why he chose the flowerbed to lie in is beyond me (maybe he really does just want to tick off Petunia without regard for the consequences). Maybe I'm just naive, but that actually seems plausible to me, especially since he's protected from LV by that good ol' "ancient magic" and is therefore in a relatively safe environment (except for Dudley and his posse, of course--maybe they're off kicking puppies somewhere and have left Harry in peace for the moment). As dark as OoP promises to be, I'd like it to at least start out with a moment of calmness--you know, the "quiet before the storm"--instead of him being knocked down as the result of a Muggle's violence or a wizard's spell. Tess *who promises to remember the rule about condensing posts next time* From ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com Wed Jan 15 22:49:55 2003 From: ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com (ingachristsuperstar ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 22:49:55 -0000 Subject: More on Dumbledore's knowledge Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49850 I think the real question re. the instantly infamous quote is why Dumbledore now thinks he _should_ have told Harry before. Could it be the information would have left him better prepared for what he faces in OoP? Left him able to save the poor "bad death" victim? Or worse, maybe not kill said victim (or someone else) because he didn't know the whole story? Surely Dumbledore would have a good reason for regretting his decision, since he clearly thought he had good reasons for withholding the info at the time. -Ing ===== "It's important for us to explain to our nation that life is important. It's not only life of babies, but it's life of children living in, you know, the dark dungeons of the Internet." George W. Bush From the.harrisfamily at virgin.net Wed Jan 15 22:48:59 2003 From: the.harrisfamily at virgin.net (eillim022861 ) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 22:48:59 -0000 Subject: why kill Pettigrew and the biblical theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49851 I've been scanning the messages for a few days, and have been intrigued by the 'is Lupin evil?' debate. Personally I don't think he is, but (and if it has been covered I apologise, but couldn't find any reference in the search)wondered why he was so keen to dispatch Pettigrew. Surely, it would be better to have Pettigrew alive so that he could be questioned and his story substantiated. Would the fact that he was dead automatically have cleared Sirius. After all, even Dumbledore believed that Sirius betrayed the Potters and he also commented on the low opinion of werewolves within the wizarding community. I can understand that Sirius, after 12 years in Azkaban would feel vengeful and apt to act first, think later, but Lupin? Also, murdering some-one in front of 3 children isn't really something a Professor should be considering. On a separate issue, the bliblical theme has intriged me. I read somewhere (I can't remember the reference, sorry!) that JKR has said that if we know our biblical theology we could guess what happens to Harry. We know that Jesus was betrayed by Judas who was paid 30 pieces of silver. Could there be a connection with Peter and his silver arm, or maybe there is a betrayal closer to home (Ron?). I'm not convinced of the death and resurrection theroy as it seems a constant view within the wizarding world that when you're dead, your're dead. eillim (who really likes Lupin and Snape) From nplyon at yahoo.com Wed Jan 15 23:31:36 2003 From: nplyon at yahoo.com (Nicole L.) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 15:31:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pushing Up Daisies (Was RE: Dumbledore's Knowledge (OOP)) In-Reply-To: <1042656887.9229.8313.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030115233136.9702.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49852 Richelle said: > > Also, I can't help but wonder. Why is Harry lying > flat on his back in a > flowerbed?!? > As soon as I read this quote on CNN while at work today, I immediately thought, "It's Harry and I'll bet he had another of those dreams/visions where he saw Voldemort and something *really* bad happened." That's my theory and I'm stickin' to it until proven wrong. :) ~Nicole, back from a *really* long hiatus, about to start her third reading of book 4, and already planning on taking a day off work on June 21st (Yes, I sometimes work weekends--but not that weekend!). ===== ***************************************************************** "You haven't got a letter on yours," George observed. "I suppose she thinks you don't forget your name. But we're not stupid--we know we're called Gred and Forge." Chapter 12, "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" ***************************************************************** __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From sushi at societyhappens.com Wed Jan 15 23:33:45 2003 From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 17:33:45 -0600 Subject: Evil Hufflepuffs Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030115171753.02621ee0@mail.societyhappens.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49853 Hey, all. Just some thoughts I've had on the most neglected of our beloved Houses. In canon, Hufflepuffs are described as loyal and hard-working. This may be my natural cynicism talking, but doesn't that mean that if any Hufflepuffs were swayed to Voldemort's side, they could easily become some of his most dangerous weapons? Hufflepuff does not have to mean "good", just as Slytherin does not have to mean "evil" (IMO). It means nothing more than being wholeheartedly devoted to whatever cause one might have, and being willing to work for that cause. If a Hufflepuff is passionate about rabbits, he or she would spend hours studying them, taking care of several pet rabbits of various shapes and sizes, go rabbit-watching, and generally retain that passion for a long time. If a Hufflepuff decides he or she is passionate about Voldemort, I see that person becoming one of the staunchest Death Eaters in the ranks. This is the person who would rather die than betray the Dark Lord, and will do anything in his or her power to forward his reign. It's a frightening thought, a selfless, devoted, self-sacrificing minion of evil, especially when you take into account the idea that these are "supposed" to be among the good guys. I know that, at least in fanfic, Slytherin and Ravenclaw are usually attributed as the Houses For Those Most Likely To Go Over To The Dark Side. However, I'm not so sure this ought to be the case. I don't think any one House is more likely than any other to go either way (there's nothing inherently evil in cunning or ambition). However, with Hufflepuff's ingrained loyalty I think they'd be most likely to *stay* on the Dark Side once there. They're not all Muggle-born, and at least some of those pure-blood families are going to have, ah, ideas most often attributed to families like the Malfoys. Show a good, ambitious Slytherin that he or she can gain more when not on LV's side and he'll defect if already there; show a Hufflepuff the same thing, and you'll have one Hell of a fight on your hands. Sushi From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Thu Jan 16 00:25:10 2003 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 00:25:10 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Evil Hufflepuffs References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030115171753.02621ee0@mail.societyhappens.com> Message-ID: <3E25FBE6.3070907@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49854 Sushi wrote: > Hey, all. Just some thoughts I've had on the most neglected of our > beloved Houses. > > In canon, Hufflepuffs are described as loyal and hard-working. This may > be my natural cynicism talking, but doesn't that mean that if any > Hufflepuffs were swayed to Voldemort's side, they could easily become some > of his most dangerous weapons? > I distinctly remember a word "just" in one of the Sorting ceremonies. Voldemort and justice do not sit well together in my mind. But it got me thinking about one of the old discussions about Hufflepuff - all the characteristics of this house sound negative: Hufflepuffs are not clever enough to be Ravenclaws, not brave enough to be Gryffindors and not ambitious enough to be Slytherins. So, what is the point of this House, so to speak? If it's OK to make comparison with LoTR, Hufflepuffs are the Hobbits of Potterverse. Elfs have more knowledge, Dwarfs are more brave and Men are more power-hungry, but when they needed someone to save the world, little hobbit was the best person for the job. Maybe it's not by accident that the Goblet of Fire had chosen Hufflepuff to be a Hogwarts champion then? Irene From sevothtarte at gmx.net Wed Jan 15 22:07:16 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 23:07:16 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quidditch Miscellania In-Reply-To: <734013104.20030115215403@tut.by> Message-ID: <741F0B9A0NHMMGPL322XPMIEXR766.3e25db94@tk> No: HPFGUIDX 49855 Alexander : > Now, there are reserve players in Hogwarts teams as well. Are there? When why does the main team apparently train alone? If you have enough players to form two teams which play training matches against each other you normally seize the chance, don`t you? Also, at the end of PS Ron tell's Harry "we've been steamrollered without you" but doesn't mention who played seeker. And in Harry's nightmare in PoA he dreams the team had to use Neville as seeker. Remembering Neville's flying skills, this surely isn't a n option in reality. All in all, it seems like they have no second seeker, or any reserve players at all. Torsten From firekat482 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 16 00:57:11 2003 From: firekat482 at yahoo.com (firekat482 ) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 00:57:11 -0000 Subject: A small rant about stereotyping in the WW and Hogwarts Was: Evil Hufflepuffs In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030115171753.02621ee0@mail.societyhappens.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49856 Sushi wrote: > Hufflepuff does not have to mean "good", just as Slytherin does not >have to mean "evil" (IMO). Oh, you cannot know how happy you have made me by saying this. :) As a self-proclaimed (or wannabe) Slytherin, I hate it that people automatically assume I'm some kind of hell-raiser. Quite frankly I don't like a lot of the stereotyping that goes on in the books - and that includes negative *and* positive conotations. I find it strange that Dumbledore seems to be content to allow these stereotypes to foster. Shouldn't he - as the school's headmaster - want to work at bringing the students together? Or at least work on changing some attitudes (in *all* the houses)? I find very little evidence that he does. Granted, as the stories are told from Harry's POV, we see very little of what Dumbledore does behind the scenes. Still, I get the feeling that whatever he might try behind the scenes is negated by the amount of bitterness that surrounds Harry's Gryffindor/Slytherin potions class. That, of course, is only one example and it is limited to only two of the houses. I understand that there is litte evidence (maybe even none at all) to make much of an argument/debate about this. It's just something that bugs me whenever I think about it. I mean, seriously, it's been 1,000 years since Hogwarts was founded - slightly less since the time of the founders. Yet despite all of this time the feelings of the four houses towards one another hasn't changed one iota. 1,000 years! What the heck have the headmasters (and mistresses) been doing about this? Nothing, it seems. I wonder why. Could there be some secret conspiracy behind it all? Heh heh. Okay, probably not. But, IMHO, 1,000 years is a long time for generations of students to hold the same grudges against one another that the four founders had against each other. Anyway, just my two knuts. ~Jean ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ Director Chris Columbus: "The first movie, I wanted more Alan Rickman. The second movie, I wanted more Alan Rickman. But we focused on the story, which follows the kids." Me: What!? Who cares about the kids? I want more Alan Rickman! From sushi at societyhappens.com Thu Jan 16 01:03:05 2003 From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 19:03:05 -0600 Subject: Evil Hufflepuffs In-Reply-To: <3E25FBE6.3070907@btopenworld.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030115171753.02621ee0@mail.societyhappens.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030115185649.0284d370@mail.societyhappens.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49857 >Sushi wrote: > > Hey, all. Just some thoughts I've had on the most neglected of our > > beloved Houses. > > > > In canon, Hufflepuffs are described as loyal and > hard-working. This may > > be my natural cynicism talking, but doesn't that mean that if any > > Hufflepuffs were swayed to Voldemort's side, they could easily become some > > of his most dangerous weapons? Irene responded: >I distinctly remember a word "just" in one of the Sorting ceremonies. >Voldemort and justice do not sit well together in my mind. But isn't justice in the eye of the beholder? As twisted and corrupt as Voldemort is, he still thinks what he's doing is just. He's devoted to the cause of Wizarding World For Wizards/carrying on Slytherin's work. His reasons may be a little hazy to the rest of us, but doesn't every terrorist think of himself as a freedom fighter? If a Hufflepuff were to take a similar point of view, it could be carried to extremes in the name of "freeing the wizarding world of the Muggle scourge". Sushi [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Thu Jan 16 01:44:50 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius ) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 01:44:50 -0000 Subject: Move A Little Bit Closer (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49858 Finally! I held this filk back until we had an actual date. Move A Little Bit Closer To the tune of Come a Little Bit Closer, the 1964 hit by Jay Black and the Americans Dedicated to Gail B. Hear a MIDI at http://www.geocities.com/mrsmom57boyd/country_midi.html THE SCENE: Any place where books are sold in the US, UK, Canada or Australia/NZ. The date: June 21, 2003 In a little strip mall just the other side of a Border's I was waiting there standing in line for Rowling's new "Order" `Cause I wanted to read Harry But the line was stationary And I knew, yes, I knew it's past five, I'll be here all day, yeah Move a little bit closer All you in this queue So slow and so long Move a little bit closer I'm way back here Can't we all move along? The line started to lurch And my legs, they felt so exhausted So I then couldn't assist When the guy behind me just lost it: "I should've got it from Amazon, Soon each copy will be gone! Yes, I knew that this queue I should skip But my kids all cried on, yeah! "Move a little bit closer All you in this queue So slow and so long Move a little bit closer Where's a cashier? Can't we all move along?" When Book Six comes out Perhaps in '04 if we're lucky We will all come back here In a line stretching clear to Kentucky It's a ritual we'll gladly obey For Canon a small price to pay But as we wait in line You will hear us whine and pine.... "...Move a little bit closer All you in this queue So slow and so long Move a little bit closer We've waited all year Can't we all move along?" - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From debmclain at yahoo.com Thu Jan 16 01:59:00 2003 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie McLain ) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 01:59:00 -0000 Subject: Flowerbed and Dumbledore (OOP) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49859 Okay - I have read all the posts. Here are my favorite theories, along with mine.... "The hottest day of the summer so far was drawing to a close and a drowsy silence lay over the large, square houses of Privet Drive The only person left outside was a teenage boy who was lying flat on his back in a flowerbed outside number four." "Cindy C. " wrote: > OoP starts off with Harry having just fallen off of the roof of > Number 4 Privet Drive. He was assigned the task of installing > Dudley's new satellite dish, lost his footing, and landed flat on > his back in the flowerbed. Me: I LOVE this!!! This is so Dursleyish! I rolled when I read this one. Barb wrote: > ...edited... It seemed, with this image stuck in my mind, that JKR obviously had him flat on his back because he had collapsed with exhaustion after a day's work in the garden (especially if it was the hottest day of the summer), and that the next thing we are likely to read is a description of Petunia screeching like mad about his crushing her precious flowers... Me: Okay, this is exactly what I was thinking too. This is more what I am expecting, but the satellite dish was just too funny not to include. --------------------- "Dumbledore lowered his hands and surveyed Harry through his half- moon glasses. `It is time,' he said, `for me to tell you what I should have told you five years ago, Harry. Please sit down. I am going to tell you everything.'" Ing wrote: > I think the real question re. the instantly infamous quote is why > Dumbledore now thinks he _should_ have told Harry before. > Could it be the information would have left him better prepared > for what he faces in OoP? Left him able to save the poor "bad > death" victim? Or worse, maybe not kill said victim (or someone > else) because he didn't know the whole story? Me: I thought the same thing. What happened that made DD decide he needs to tell Harry everything? Since he is lowering his hands, I think DD was crying. Hagrid is dead, and Harry could've done something to prevent it, but couldn't because he didn't have all the information he needed to make the right decision. Now Harry has to live with himself, and the death he could've prevented, but didn't. Ing also wrote: > Surely Dumbledore would have a good reason for regretting his > decision, since he clearly thought he had good reasons for > withholding the info at the time. Me: I completely agree. Again, DD regrets his decision because Hagrid would still be alive if he had "confessed" earlier to Harry. I think this happens in the hospital wing (since Harry usually ends up there at the end of the book). DD tells him everything before he leaves for the summer. My prediction for book 6: DD dies. No doubt about it. -Debbie From bebche2 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 16 02:08:18 2003 From: bebche2 at yahoo.com (Peter Shea) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 18:08:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Why Do Wizards Celebrate Christmas? Message-ID: <20030116020818.37844.qmail@web20309.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49860 Not to distract from the fresh round of OOP speculations, I thought I'd provoke an inquiry about celebrations of Christmas in the wizard world. The emphasis in the HP books has been on the segregation of wizards from muggles and the difference in their world views. Yet the celebration of a religious holiday seems to suggest a significant confluence point between the two communities. (To be honest, I'd forgotten about it until my wife--who is reading GoF--brought it to my attention). Peter the Couch Elf --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From wpfositpoi at yahoo.com Thu Jan 16 01:47:46 2003 From: wpfositpoi at yahoo.com (wpfositpoi ) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 01:47:46 -0000 Subject: Flowerbed - Harry fell off the roof? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49861 I'm sorry I'm not sure who originated the theory but how about the notion that Harry fell off the roof while doing some chore in the blazing sun (perhaps hanging a satellite dish?) and landed in the flowerbed? It's such a great theory that I thought it deserved to be mentioned again. As much as we would like to see the novel start with an action packed escape from Voldemort-type scenario, this situation sounds more likely. He'd be lying there thinking about how much he hates the summers, then reminisce about his friends and adventures, only to be interrupted by Aunt Petunia screaming at him for smashing her flowers. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Jan 16 02:23:37 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 02:23:37 -0000 Subject: Why Do Wizards Celebrate Christmas? In-Reply-To: <20030116020818.37844.qmail@web20309.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49862 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Peter Shea wrote: > > ... I thought I'd provoke an inquiry about celebrations of Christmas > in the wizard world. ...edited... > > Yet the celebration of a religious holiday seems to suggest a > significant confluence point between the two communities. > > > Peter the Couch Elf bboy_mn: I could reply with 'Why do the Japanese celebrate Christmas?' or "Why do some less than orthodox Jews celebrate Christmas?' First, if you are on the standard calendar rather than the Chinese, Thai, or other calendar; then it is an end of year celebration. A chance to acknowledge all the people around us who we care about. So there is a huge element of the end of year celebration that doesn't have to be based in Christianity. Second, how old is Christianity? The wizard world has gone though, it would seem, several periods of isolation from and integration with Muggles. I don't think they've lived in a vacuum for 2,000 years. So it seems completely reasonable that they would be well aware of the worldwide, although mostly Anglo, celebration of Christmas. Next, what makes you think witches and wizards don't have the same religious diversity that the rest of the world does. What makes you think that POTTER witches and wizards in the UK aren't common Christians. Let's face it worldwide, most Christians aren't religious. Most Christians don't go to church on a regular basis. That what I mean by 'common Christian', people who identify themselves with the Christian religious but are not actively religious. Oddly, I have to wonder why you asked about Christmas which has become a worldwide non-religious year end celebration, but didn't ask about Easter. The school, Hogwarts, always has an Easter break. There really is no way to convert Easter into a general purpose holiday. Conclusion, they celebrate Christmas and Easter because they are Christians in a Christian dominated world. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. bboy_mn From kristen at sanderson-web.com Thu Jan 16 02:36:54 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (gkjpo ) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 02:36:54 -0000 Subject: Why Do Wizards Celebrate Christmas? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49863 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve " wrote: > Oddly, I have to wonder why you asked about Christmas which has become > a worldwide non-religious year end celebration, but didn't ask about > Easter. The school, Hogwarts, always has an Easter break. There really > is no way to convert Easter into a general purpose holiday. > Ahem... "Here comes Peter Cottontail...hopping down the bunny trail...hippity hoppity Easter's on its way!" :) :) Easter can also be translated into a general holiday. Easter egg hunts aren't exactly religious. > Conclusion, they celebrate Christmas and Easter because they are > Christians in a Christian dominated world. > Perhaps. I agree with you that they celebrate more in the general sense than any specifically religious sense. But, it's not a religious school, so I would expect that they wouldn't be able to have any religion-specific celebrations anyway. I don't know about schools in Britian, but in the US it is customary to have time off around Christmas and the beginning of spring (not necessarily right at Easter), so Hogwarts is consistent with what I'm used to (in the US). Out of curiosity, do all versions of the book refer to the spring break as the "Easter holidays"? Kristen From Zarleycat at aol.com Thu Jan 16 02:45:24 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001 ) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 02:45:24 -0000 Subject: why kill Pettigrew In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49864 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eillim022861 'is Lupin evil?' debate. Personally I don't think > he is, but I wondered why he was so keen to dispatch > Pettigrew. > Surely, it would be better to have Pettigrew alive so that he could > be questioned and his story substantiated. Would the fact that he > was dead automatically have cleared Sirius. After all, even > Dumbledore believed that Sirius betrayed the Potters and he also > commented on the low opinion of werewolves within the wizarding > community. I can understand that Sirius, after 12 years in Azkaban > would feel vengeful and apt to act first, think later, but Lupin? > Also, murdering some-one in front of 3 children isn't really > something a Professor should be considering. Unless Lupin was using that time-honored Snape tactic of threatening awful things and not really going through with them (threatening Neville with the death of Trevor, etc.) Perhaps Remus considered that the threat of death would be enough to make Peter fall to his knees, abjectly wailing and moaning and beating his breast, begging for forgiveness for all the wrongs he has committed. At that point Remus might have said, "Okay Peter, we've changed our minds. We won't kill you. And we will do our best to help mitigate your sentence, but you must tell this story to the Ministry to clear Sirius and allow Harry to go leave the horrible Dursleys and go live with someone who will truly care for him." > eillim (who really likes Lupin and Snape) Well, eillim, you get points for Lupin, but we obviously have to work on that Snape thing.... ;-) Marianne From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Thu Jan 16 02:53:40 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 18:53:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Do Wizards Celebrate Christmas? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030116025340.43214.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49865 "gkjpo " wrote: Easter can also be translated into a general holiday. Easter egg hunts aren't exactly religious. [snip] I agree ... that they celebrate more in the general sense than any specifically religious sense. But, it's not a religious school, so I would expect that they wouldn't be able to have any religion-specific celebrations anyway. I don't know about schools in Britian, but in the US it is customary to have time off around Christmas and the beginning of spring (not necessarily right at Easter), so Hogwarts is consistent with what I'm used to (in the US). Me: It's also worth noting that when there is a special event on Christmas evening, it is called the Yule Ball. Not the Christmas Ball--Yule. Yule is an ancient pre-Christian winter holiday in the British Isles. It is in part because of various age-old Yule traditions--such as wassailling (going door to door singing and expecting money or food/drink in return) that we now have some Christmas traditions, such as caroling (the ghosts at Hogwarts are depicted caroling in the corridors--and even the suits of armor, IIRC). Also, despite the modern use of the English word "Easter" for what is called "Paschal" in a number of Romance languages (or a variation thereof), "Easter" was originally a pagan deity whose feast was celebrated in the spring, and like Yule, worship of Easter went back many, many years in the British Isles to pre-Christian times. So the use of the phrase "Easter break" may not have any Christian overtones at all, when you think about it, if the original meaning is being used. However, one must also consider Ron's information about the almost constant intermarriage between wizards and Muggles over the centuries, and also consider the steady influx of new Muggle-born witches and wizards into the wizarding world every year. Through both marriage and Muggle-born magical children getting their letters, significant Muggle influence is flowing into the wizarding world all of the time, and it is not inconceivable that there are many magical folk who celebrate Christmas and Easter in either the religious or secular sense, just as one will find people's observance of these holidays running the gamut from pious to completely areligious in the Muggle world. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 16 03:06:43 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants ) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 03:06:43 -0000 Subject: FILK: It's a Book! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49866 I was so excited when I saw the news, I wrote this at work in one big goofy burst of emotion. It's a Book! to the tune of "Be Our Guest" from Beauty and the Beast dedicated to JKR, naturally It's a book! It's a book! The news is everywhere you look Read my e-mail when I woke And screamed until the windows shook It's all set, It's all done, It will be June twenty-one It's official, we all know it, >From the rooftops now we'll crow it Let us sing! Let us dance! Let us nitpick in advance! We will figure out the plot by hook or crook! We'll go and place our orders At B&N and Borders For the book, Yes the book, It's a book! Who will live? Who will die? Where and when and how and why? How we burn to finally learn If Snape is really gone to spy! It will be so damn long But with Jo, you can't go wrong We'll be staying up for ages, Plowing through nine hundred pages We'll review! We'll discuss! Over every FLINT we'll fuss We'll be sitting in our comfy reading nooks Scholastic has decreed We'll have a chance to read The new book! Take a look! Every reader it will hook! It's a book! It's a book! It's a book! It's a book! It's a book! Don't complain how long it took We must know how it will go And interference we won't brook We won't pause! We won't stop! We will read until we drop! The release date is in sight now Make no social plans that night now We will sit in our homes With our big humongous tomes And we will not take time off to clean or cook We know we won't get bored We'll savor every word Of the book! It's a book! It's a book! Life is not exciting When the author isn't writing We've been bereft, with nothing left but Theory Bay Now we know the big date is approaching Even though it's still five months away Three years, we've been waiting Patiently anticipating Wanting nothing more than one more book to read Spinning crazy theories on Yahoo Sad, depressed and slumping But today, the joint is jumping! It's a book! It's a book! And our joy can't be mistook! Will the arc be light or dark? Will it amuse or will it spook? It will twist And surprise And we'll stay up till sunrise We'll keep reading We'll keep going And the fanbase will keep growing Line by line Page by page We'll enjoy this latest stage Of the journey that our hero undertook The time is drawing near So give a rousing cheer For the book! It's a book! It's a book! At last, a book! Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 16 03:10:41 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 19:10:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Evil Hufflepuffs In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030115171753.02621ee0@mail.societyhappens.com> Message-ID: <20030116031041.59848.qmail@web20010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49867 --- Sushi wrote: > Hey, all. Just some thoughts I've had on the most > neglected of our > beloved Houses. > > In canon, Hufflepuffs are described as loyal and > hard-working. This may > be my natural cynicism talking, but doesn't that > mean that if any > Hufflepuffs were swayed to Voldemort's side, they > could easily become some > of his most dangerous weapons? Hufflepuffs are also described as "just." And I lend that some credence. Of course, one's idea of right and wrong and of justice may be vastly different than another's. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From Sunnylove0 at aol.com Thu Jan 16 03:49:31 2003 From: Sunnylove0 at aol.com (Sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 22:49:31 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Flowerbed and Dumbledore (OOP) Message-ID: <176.14ca579c.2b5785cb@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49868 In a message dated 1/15/2003 6:59:53 PM Mountain Standard Time, debmclain at yahoo.com writes: > > Okay - I have read all the posts. Here are my favorite theories, > along with mine.... > > > "Dumbledore lowered his hands and surveyed Harry through his half- > moon glasses. > > `It is time,' he said, `for me to tell you what I should have told > you five years ago, Harry. > > Please sit down. I am going to tell you everything.'" > > Ing wrote: > > I think the real question re. the instantly infamous quote is why > > Dumbledore now thinks he _should_ have told Harry before. > > Could it be the information would have left him better prepared > > for what he faces in OoP? Left him able to save the poor "bad > > death" victim? Or worse, maybe not kill said victim (or someone > > else) because he didn't know the whole story? > > Me: I thought the same thing. What happened that made DD decide he > needs to tell Harry everything? Since he is lowering his hands, I > think DD was crying. Hagrid is dead, and Harry could've done > something to prevent it, but couldn't because he didn't have all the > information he needed to make the right decision. Now Harry has to > live with himself, and the death he could've prevented, but didn't. > Ever since this thread started, I've been getting the inkling this must have something to do with what happened at Godric's Hollow and with James and Lily (that is the big JKR fueled rumor on OoP, after all) I think Dumbledore is about to spill the GH Every Flavour Beans, missing 24 hours and all. But what about Hagrid? Did he see something more than Baby!Harry and a blown up house? > > My prediction for book 6: DD dies. No doubt about it. > > -Debbie > > Maybe late, late Book 6, or more likely early Book 7. You have to remember that DD is the only thing keeping Voldie and the DE's from attacking Hogwarts directly. I don't know if Harry is really ready to defend an actual castle full of hysterical students yet. The Queen of Serpents "A conscience doesn't prevent sin. It just prevents you from enjoying it." Currently captivated by the horror of "Bunkbeds" http://www30.brinkster.com/bunkbeds/index2.html (probably 16 and older only) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Thu Jan 16 03:51:04 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 22:51:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: TBAY - Crouch - (7 of 9) Through a Glass, Darkly In-Reply-To: <20030103002528.5645.qmail@web20419.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030116035104.46965.qmail@web20419.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49869 "Mirror, Mirror on the Wall I am my father after all." "I think I have a strong tendency towards narcissism," says Eileen thoughtfully. "But then, I read Percy as having that tendency as well. I don't know if you do, but the way Percy can bring any conversation around to himself... Seemed frighteningly familiar. Like the dinner table at my house. Except no-one listens to me on that particular topic, like Percy. Percy's not like Crouch really, and neither am I. We lack a lot of his attributes, charisma, for one thing, but among his other roles, I think Crouch does present a warning to Percy in regards to narcissism. Because, in the end, I think that's Percy's temptation, not primarily straight out ambition, or making the end justify the means. " "Crouch made his son his mirror," says Elkins with a twisted smile, "And the law of the mirror took over. Nemesis." "I don't like Nemesis," says Eileen blankly. "Don't like Nemesis?" says Elkins incredulously. "Everyone likes Nemesis." "Well, I don't," says Eileen. "I took an immense disliking to Nemesis very early on. It's too fair. "Use every man after his desert, and who should 'scape whipping?" It might be appropriate for the punishment to fit the crime, but it's more than I can stand. I always sympathize with people who get slammed with Nemesis." She pauses and adds in a lower tone, "though I like seeing it in literature. Nemesis is painful for me to read, and therefore rather... enjoyable. Oh I agree, Crouch got slammed with Nemesis. Big time." "Well I found it enjoyable for a very different reason," says Elkins gleefully. "After that appalling treatment of his son." "Appalling?" shout Eileen and Cindy together. "Three-square meals a day," says Cindy. "Winky waiting on him hand and foot," says Eileen. "Unlimited soap operas and talk shows," says Cindy. "He could have taken up knitting or learnt to play the piano," says Eileen. "Eating ice cream from the pail," says Cindy. "Never having to do a stitch of work," says Eileen. Elkins stares at them. "Are we even reading the same *book* here?" "Being under the Imperius curse was a heap nicer than Azkaban," says Eileen stubbornly. "Which does Harry choose?" spits out Elkins. "Imperius or suffering?" "But Elkins, we've already said that Mr. and Mrs. Crouch almost certainly did not envisage a life under Imperius for Barty Jr. In this case, what was easy was right. If Barty Jr. had only been repentant, like his father wanted, all would have been well. It wasn't Azkaban or the Imperius curse. It was Azkaban, Imperius, or Redemption. Barty Jr. refused that last choice, when it was miraculously offered to him. He bears some responsibility for what happened afterwards imnsho. He forced his father's hand." "Forced his father's hand, did he? Ultimately, Crouch Sr. is a personification of soul murder: he is the Dementor's Kiss. Does anyone deserve that, Eileen?" "Some people... for some things," mutters Eileen. "Anyway, what did he do his son that was so terrible?" "Have you ever given any thought to the precise manner in which Crouch *chose* to imprison his son, Eileen? Have you? *Have* you?" "Err... no. My mind was elsewhere occupied." "Crouch Jr. was always with Winky. He was permitted to speak to no one else." "That sort of comes with the territory, doesn't it?" says Eileen weakly. "Hardly hideous inhumanity on Crouch Sr.'s part." "He was to remain under an Invisibility Cloak night and day. Night. And. Day. In other words, he was compelled to sleep in it." Eileen lifts up her hand to object, then lets it fall. "You know, Elkins," she says in a defeated voice. "That always has bothered me. And judging from Harry, invisibility cloaks are dashed difficult to keep on properly without inconvenience. Not to mention that if I had been in Crouch Sr.'s place, I wouldn't have been too keen about having Invisible!Barty Jr. skulking about the house." "Weren't we talking a while back, Eileen, about the closest real life analogue to the Imperius Curse? I seem to remember that we thought that it would probably be *drugs,* didn't we?" "The NKVD," mutters Eileen. "Am I really the only person in the entire *universe* who read the book this way? Presumed dead. Social isolation. Denied sunlight. 24 hour surveillance. Infantilizing language. Degrading treatment. In plain sight, but made invisible. Rewards granted for compliance -- and presumably, by the same token, withheld in response to defiance. Hypnotic agents. Crouch wasn't just keeping his son a prisoner. He was attempting indoctrination." "After his son had been indoctrinated by Lord Voldemort," mutters Eileen. "How heart-breaking was that? It's like Crouch's actions as Head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement. You refuse to see him as responding normally to tragic and terrible events. Everything has to be seen as an opportunity to further his control over others. There's a good lot of truth in that, as you've demonstrated, but in the end, I still feel that very often his horrendous behaviour is rooted in a response to horrendous events. Frank Longbottom being tortured by his own son. That son defying him and announcing his plan to go and bring back Voldemort. And then... well..." "Out with it, woman!" spits Cindy. "I don't know if this is particularly fair, since Elkins has never really come straight out and said this on the list, as far as I recall, but didn't you tell me in a private email that you got "the impression that Crouch did a lot of Just Not Thinking Things Through when it came to his son?" In which case, was he really trying to destroy his son's identity?" "The man set out to destroy his son's sense of self. Ruthlessly. Deliberately. Methodically." "Elkins, no. Please don't say that," says Eileen. "Couldn't he have thought that allowing Barty Jr. the freedom of the house was a kindness on his part?" Elkins looks at her with mingled pity and disgust, "What Crouch told himself and the deep down truth are two very different things. As you may have learnt by now. Crouch's behaviour towards his son was abominable." "Agreed," sighs Eileen. "Agreed?" "Yes, just as the man's behaviour as Head of Magical Law Enforcement was abominable. But not entirely unsympathetic." "Yes, he was reacting? Poor Barty Crouch Sr. just can't keep control of himself? Has to commit atrocities every time life deals him a bad hand?" "Something like that, but... Elkins, I really don't know how to respond to this. I had a very different reaction to the Veritaserum chapter. There was something in there that made me like Crouch Sr. But I don't know what. I..." Eileen gazes down at a book that has miraculously appeared on the railing beside her. "Unfogging the Future, by Cassandra Vablatsky," reads Cindy. "Why not?" asks Eileen, picking up the book and opening up the section on Tea Leaves. "Cindy, where's that cup of tea you made me?" Cindy passes over the cup of cold undrunk Earl's Grey, which she had faithfully carted back from the Golden Wood. Eileen chugs it down quickly, and then looks at the bottom of the cup. At the bottom, the tea leaves have formed into these words. "Elkins: And his son wouldn't have been very good company for him, I wouldn't think. Not under the Imperius Curse. Even assuming that Crouch had *wanted* to deal with his son on any normal or personable level, which I don't believe for a second that he did." "Elkins," says Eileen. "You're going to say that?" "I am?" asks Elkins. "Though, yes I'd agree with that. I'll have to write it in Part Eight." "YESSSSSSSSS!" shouts Eileen. "Yes! Yes! Yes!" She throws her arms around Elkins, who looks very uncomfortable. "You've found me my canon!" "Wait a second," says Elkins, disentangling herself, "What canon?" "You finally said something that didn't seem right to me, so I went back to the books to look for evidence of whether Crouch communicated personably with his son. And I found it! Veritaserum: "He said it damaged her memory permanently." Elkins stares at her. "You said Crouch was a narcissist. I agree. I think he talked to his son a lot. About himself, of course. But a lot, and on a more or less personable basis. We have him on record as speculating about the results of Bertha's memory charm to Barty Jr. And then... Elkins, this explains something that's been bugging me a long while. Where did Barty Jr. get all that knowledge to play his part in GoF, do you think? You can't waltz about with no idea of what happened for the last eleven years and successfully imitate a famous Auror, what? A week's crash course won't cut it. Especially a week's crash course taught by VapourForTwelveYears!Voldemort and RatForTwelveYears!Pettigrew. Plus, where did he learn so much about Moody? Did nineteen year old Crouch Jr. know the famous Auror so well as to be able to fool Dumbledore? And then managed to pick up any changes in his character and circumstances over the past eleven years very, very quickly? That's highly unlikely. But his father would have. The only place Barty Jr. could have got all that information was from his father. And the Death Eaters at the World Cup. How did he know they were unfaithful? That they had forgotten Voldemort? Oh he, heard all that at home. In stirring detail, I'm sure. When Crouch Sr. came home from work, he talked. He talked and talked and talked to a captive audience. His son was forced to listen. And it appears that what Crouch talked about was everything. Every detail of life in the world outside. He kept nothing back. Even though it would have been better for the purposes of indoctrination to do so. Elkins, do you think they would have acted like that in the Lubyanka? Isn't the whole point of breaking down a person's individuality to cut them off entirely from the outside world? It was the fact that Crouch didn't cut him off so entirely, that let Barty Jr. cling to Voldemort, instead of submitting to his father. Drove into his head the rage against the DEs who walked free, since I imagine Crouch talked a lot about them. Crouch Sr. did not set out to entirely destroy his son's sense of self. He tried to indoctrinate him in a very human way, by talking to him. Normally. As a human being. Telling him everything about his daily life. About the Ministry. About politics. He was lonely, you know. And add that to the treatment that *was* deplorable and we have the recipe that allowed Barty Jr. to end up dissasociated but with his will unbroken. And I find that very humanizing. Coming home after a long day at the office, sitting down to dinner, and starting in on dissecting Bagman's character. And meanwhile Barty Jr. is storing everything away in his mind for future use. That is human. That is pitiable." "Don't ask me to pity Crouch," Elkins spits. "Don't ask me to sympathize with him. Don't ask me to like him. And *don't* talk to me about angels. Not unless you mean *avenging* angels. Don't tell me that the text invites our sympathies with him. There is nothing to sympathize *with* when it comes to Barty Crouch Sr. He is identity loss personified. He is soul murder. He is the Dementor's Kiss. He is Evil Incarnate." There is a very long silence. Eileen looks desperately around for an escape route. This time, she is in for it. She will not get away to spin Crouch apologetics another day. She will be forever known on the list as the person who crossed Elkins and paid for it. She contemplates throwing herself at the feet of Elkins's hobbyhorse, and grovel for mercy, but then realizes that this would be the surest way to be trampled. She hears a blur of voices. Is that Elkins screaming? And then suddenly, something is thrust in front of her face. A tag bearing the words, "AFFECTIVE FALLACY." "Elkins!" gasps Eileen, shocked. "Get down from there!" Cindy tosses her roughly to the ground. "Okay," says Eileen. "Now that you're down off of that *fallacy* of yours, you can't honestly deny that the text invites our sympathies with Crouch, can you? I mean..." ""Oh, of *COURSE* the text invites our sympathies with him!" screams Elkins. "Man gets a redemption scene, doesn't he?" Eileen rocks back on her heels and smirks unbecomingly at Cindy. "Told you," she says. "Although," Elkins says softly. "I could argue against Redeemed In Death Crouch, you know. If I wanted to." "I've been expecting you to," says Eileen. "For a long time. I posted that rousing defense of the redemption scene at the beginning of September and I was really expecting you or Cindy to chime in and attack it." "Have you? Yes. Well. You see, if I *wanted* to argue against Crouch's redemption, then I suppose that I would ask you just this one little thing. Just one simple question." Elkins narrows her eyes. "Does he see his sin?" she asks. "Does Crouch ever see his sin? His refusal to recognize the autonomy of others?" "Yes, I think he did," says Eileen. "What does the text say? He knows that he's in trouble, certainly. He knows that the world is in peril, and that it's in some sense his fault. But does he actually comprehend the *nature* of his crimes? Has he come to any real recognition of where he went wrong? Has he really? All that he actually *says* is that he has done a 'stupid thing.' Not wicked. Not evil. Not wrong. Just 'stupid.'" "But Elkins," says Eileen. "You have to remember that we're at a point in the story where it's important for JKR to keep us in the dark over what Crouch actually did. He can't be specific and self-accusing, because JKR doesn't want us to get wind of the truth. So there!" She smiles triumphantly, and makes to march off. But a woman, wearing a large hat, a cloak up to her chin, and sunglasses, stops her. "You can't do that," says the woman. "Why not? And who are you?" "Because that's metathinking," says the woman, "You may know me as Pip." "But I like metathinking," complains Eileen. "You may like it, but such metathinking is not appropriate in analysing the actions of characters within the plot," says Pip. "It's like saying that Harry doesn't tell Dumbledore about the voices in CoS because JKR wanted the book to continue for more chapters. That's true, but what does it tell us about Harry? Nothing. The mechanics of JKR's deception of the audience are not an answer to Elkins's critique of Crouch Sr.'s redemption. So, get back there." Eileen frowns at Pip, then nods, and returns to Elkins and Cindy. "Well," she says, with a sigh, "Crouch is constrained. And not only by the author. He's clinging to what little sanity he has left. And he's focusing on getting to Dumbledore, not spilling the beans to Harry. As I've said to Cindy before." Eileen shoots a hostile glance at Cindy, who is watching the argument with an unconcerned and amused face. Elkins ignores her. "And when you look at the words that he actually uses, at his phrasing, they reveal that even in the midst of his passion, Mr. Crouch has not truly changed. He's still speaking of people in terms that deny their individuality. He speaks of them as possessions. He asks Harry: 'You're not...his?' And then he asks if Harry is 'Dumbledore's.' "I had thought Rowling meant this as a good point of Crouch's," smirks Eileen. "Recognizing that Harry is Dumbledore's. After all, CoS hangs on Harry's loyalty to Dumbledore. To mention just one example." "Perhaps," says Elkins. "He keeps giving orders. 'Don't leave me.' 'Go get Dumbledore.' He clutches onto Harry's robes so tightly that Harry can't even pry him free." Eileen stares at Elkins. "Are you all right?" she says gently. "I don't want to disturb you or anything, but those seem like anguished pleas for help, not orders..." she begins to back away carefully. "Really, he doesn't seem to appreciate the nature of his sin at *all,* does he? No recognition at all of where he went wrong. No genuine repentence. I think that Crouch Sr. is distraught because he saved his son from an absolutely miserable death in Azkaban. A 'stupid thing.' Not for what he did to his son." "I didn't read the text that way at all... Maybe it's my sentimental side but I saw a lot more remorse there than you did... Here's his final words. "Don't... leave... me!" he whispered, his eyes buling again. "I... escaped... must warn... must tell... see Dumbledore... my fault... all my fault... Bertha... dead... all my fault... my son... my fault... tell Dumbledore... Harry Potter... the Dark Lord... stronger... Harry Potter..." Eileen pulls out a handkerchief and dabs her eye. "Can you guess which word is underlined in my copy?" she says in a choked voice. "All." She pauses to regain her composure. "All the more remarkable if you remember that Real Wizards Don't Apologize. Anyway, the juxtaposition of Bertha and Barty Jr. here made me read it as his regret at what he had done to each of them. Regret for the wrong he had done them. "All my fault" suggests that he was taking all the blame, not just for enabling him to escape, but for everything that he might be accused of regarding his son. He's absolutely heartbroken there, and it shows." "No, Crouch died in his sin, if you ask me. Oh, he was just *mired* in it, Eileen. Up to his very *neck* in hamartia. Absolutely steeped in moral error. Positively *choking* on perdition." Elkins leans back with a satisfied smile on her face and lights a cigarette. She takes a long slow drag, exhales contentedly, then looks up to notice both Eileen and Cindy staring at her. Her smile falters. She sighs. "Nah," she mutters. "Forget it. Crouch is okay. The angels can have him." Eileen breathes a sigh of relief. ""In the end," Elkins says. "I always feel sorry for everyone." "Even Barty Crouch?" "Yeah, even Crouch. But I still can't quite bring myself to like him, Eileen. I'm sorry. I just can't. He has the misfortune of being associated with all of the things that I happen to hate the very most in the world. Tyranny. Torture. Brainwashing. Coercion. Narcissism. The negation of volition. Ugh. Ugh. He's just *horrible.* And I really do have a serious, uh, Affective Fallacy problem, let's just say, when it comes to Crouch." Eileen leans back, a resigned look on her face. "All right," she says, "All right." She tries to think of something else to say. "I do like him," she says after a bit. "I feel that while the text certainly does invite us to sympathize with Crouch there at the very end, while he's manfully trying to undo the damage that he has wrought, on another level I think that the text militates against sympathy with him. Because while Crouch the man is ultimately pitiable, and perhaps even in his own way admirable," "What did Elkins just say?" whispers Cindy. "Crouch's role in the text is to serve as the representative of the forces offering the temptation that Harry must learn to resist. Crouch offers the temptation of what is easy over what is right. It is *easy* to surrender your will to an authoritarian political leader. It is *easy* to allow yourself to be dominated by the desire to serve a charismatic master, or to impress a demanding employer, or to please a strong father figure. It is *easy* to let your parents protect and harbour and control you. It is *easy* to give way to the Imperius Curse. "But it's not right," Elkins concludes. "The text invites our sympathy for those who have to face those choices. But it doesn't generally invite too much sympathy for those who *offer* the easy choices, I don't think. It seems to me that in these books, the powers that actually offer the easy choices are...well, they're usually the powers of Evil." "Elkins," says Eileen, her heart pounding. "A very nice summary, but if the book doesn't invite sympathy, how come so many people read it that way. A minority to be sure. But a substantial minority. I once thought I was alone in my opinion, but since then I've made sure to buttonhole anyone I'm talking HP with about the Crouches, and a very large number of people agree with my emotional reaction to Crouch Sr. Rather interesting that. Almost all of them, I've found, are younger readers. In their late teens and early twenties. Is that the Percy dynamic, do you think? Or is it something else? Is it the fact that some people tend to see Crouch as not only offering the choice between what's easy and what's right, but also facing that choice? A man more sinned against than sinning?" "Hardly," says Elkins. > >This post is continued from Part Six. It is primarily >a response to messages #37476 (the Manifesto) and >#45402 (Crouch Sr as Tragic Hero), but also cites or >references message numbers 34232, 34496, 34519, 34579, >38368, 38398, 43326, 44258, 44636. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From Schlobin at aol.com Thu Jan 16 04:20:30 2003 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176 ) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 04:20:30 -0000 Subject: Flowerbed and Dumbledore (OOP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49870 Goodness, I hope you're wrong and Dumbledore does NOT die, since he is my favorite character. I have been hoping that he would last until the last book, when of course he and Voldemort kill each other off, leaving Harry and his friends to deal with the Malfoys. I imagine that Harry was lying on his back in the flower bed because he desperately did NOT want to be in the same house as the Dursleys...I had a relatively happy childhood, but there were still times I would sneak out on a warm night and lie in the grass and look at the stars..very peaceful...... I am SO excited that OOP has a publishing date! WHOOOO-eeee..I can't wait to know what the title means.... Susan (whose 3 year old daughter has been telling everyone that she is Ron. Ron WEASLEY.) From midgiecat at aol.com Thu Jan 16 04:46:05 2003 From: midgiecat at aol.com (midgiecat at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 23:46:05 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Announcements Message-ID: <1a7.f6d1249.2b57930d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49871 Heard tonite on CNN's TechLive show, the release date of the fifth Harry Potter book, Order of the Phoenix, is June 21st. They also read the first line of the first chapter of book #5. Brenda W. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Thu Jan 16 04:46:30 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 20:46:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: why kill Pettigrew In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030116044630.28447.qmail@web40512.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49872 In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eillim wrote: > Surely, it would be better to have Pettigrew alive so that he could > be questioned and his story substantiated. Would the fact that he > was dead automatically have cleared Sirius. After all, even > Dumbledore believed that Sirius betrayed the Potters and he also > commented on the low opinion of werewolves within the wizarding > community. I can understand that Sirius, after 12 years in Azkaban > would feel vengeful and apt to act first, think later, but Lupin? > Also, murdering some-one in front of 3 children isn't really > something a Professor should be considering. I think there were very strong ties between MWPP that were much more than friendship. It was the deepest kind of trust and reliance on each other in all circumstances. Hagrid said Hogwarts was only safe place left as Voldemort's power was reaching its highest point (just around MWPP's last years at Hogwarts), but obviously it was not so. Voldemort's student followers such as Peter corrupted Hogwarts from the inside, making even such close people as James, Remus and Sirius suspect each other of a horrifying thing - betrayal of their more-than-friendship. (As a side note, I think that MPP were by far not the only people to suffer in such a way.) Sirius Black and Remus Lupin were both greatly affected by what happened, and that's such an understatement. I think that they felt very justified in wanting to get their revenge. Yes, turning Peter in alive would have saved everyone a lot of trouble, but given the fact that Peter *betrayed* their more-than-friendship (he commited perfidy ), Sirius and Lupin did not even think about not carrying out Peter's sentence. That's rather like the musketeers' decapitation of Miledy, except that Peter IMO committed fouler crimes - he was, after all, their friend for many years. Actually, I think I'll mention a thought that came into my head a little while ago. The WW seems to me to be a pretty medieval society in some aspects - wizarding duels, for example. The werewolf prejudices also don't seem very progressive. This execution-to-be of Peter also fits the bill. Does anyone agree? Regards, Maria, who will be in Russia for the whole summer and won't get to read the book till the middle of August!!!!!!! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bebche2 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 16 05:45:58 2003 From: bebche2 at yahoo.com (Peter Shea) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 21:45:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: why kill Pettigrew In-Reply-To: <20030116044630.28447.qmail@web40512.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030116054558.31782.qmail@web20307.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49873 Maria Kirilenko wrote: <> I do. Maria touches upon an interesting aspect of the wizarding culture--that, in comparision to the muggle world, it is retrograde in its attitudes. I would compare them to a group like the Amish--not only have they chosen to live apart, but they have consciously embraced an ethos that defines them apart from the larger world. The quasi-aristocratic obsession with pure wizard blood may be seen as a manifestation of this. Closer to Maria's original point, the medieval cult of friendship and honor may be reflected in the relationship between James, Remus, Sirius, and Peter. Thus the disgrace of Peter Pettigrew's action is felt even more acutely. Peter the Couch Elf --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From srsiriusblack at aol.com Thu Jan 16 06:50:34 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 01:50:34 EST Subject: more speculation Message-ID: <65.73ef808.2b57b03a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49874 I was laying in bed rereading PoA for the 20th time- as you do- and something occurred to me. We have had many posts on Evil!Dumbledore, i.e. Dumbledore having once been evil, but with the teaser from the publishers today, something else came to mind.... After having been kept fully awake in thought on our newly released lines... What if Dumbledore is actually James' father or grandfather. - The latter more likely as to age. To protect Harry from thing which he may not have been ready to understand in DD eyes, he may not have told Harry. Harry's return to the Dursleys for protection would have kept Hogwarts completely safe- as DD would have rationalised. DD is the only wizard of whom V. was ever frightened, yet Harry is the one who sent him into a bodiless existence. Perhaps the strength of DD lies in Harry. DD has always been a paternal figure to Harry- even more so than Sirius or Remus who played paternal roles. If as has been speculated here DD were to die in book 5 or 6, Harry would be left to defend himself and his beloved school- his true home in his mind- from V. I know it is out there and I will want to explain more in the morning... I just wanted to throw it out there while it is fresh in my mind -Snuffles, who needs to get a real life and not have Harry keep her awake late in the night. "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From elfundeb at comcast.net Thu Jan 16 08:17:22 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 03:17:22 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quidditch: Ron, Wizarding population and the rules References: Message-ID: <002e01c2bd37$b20024c0$723b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 49875 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali " wrote: > > Ron: > > Much has been said about Ron the strategist and Ron the Quidditch > devotee, but has anyone questioned why his favourite team is so > lacklustre? Echoing again Debbie's suggestion that Quidditch is a > Metaphor for the unfolding story in the Potterverse, can anything be > read into the fact that Ron is passionate about a team who's motto is > "let's all just keep our fingers crossed and hope for the best" (QTTA > p.33). > > Whilst it is true that team support often runs geographically or > through families, it is also true that fans follow success. In > Britain this is particularly true of youngsters flocking in their > droves to support Manchester United. Ron though is loyal to a team > who on recent performance (i.e. the last century) have little hope of > success, yet his greatest desire in life is to be successful. We see > this in his vision of upholding the Quidditch cup and becoming Head > Boy in the Mirror of Erised. Ron appears confused, fighting between > mediocrity (as represented by his love of the "Canons" and his > feelings about poverty) and his desire for attainment and success. > While I agree with what others have posted in response that Ron's loyalty is such that he would be unlikely to abandon his team solely because they were sinking into mediocrity, the Cannons have been mediocre for a century now, and perhaps the better question to ask is why he chooses to identify with a "loser" so to speak. According to QTTA, the Cannons have been also-rans for nearly a century and adopted their present motto before Ron was even born. To me "Let's cross our fingers and hope for the best" sums up rather well how Ron has approached his life to date. My assessment of Ron is that while he isn't lacking in ambition, as the Mirror of Erised indicated, it is cloaked in his own self-doubt and fear of failure, magnified by the success of his older brothers. So therefore he does nothing to further himself: if he doesn't try to win, he can't fail. Therefore, to date he has not taken charge of his own destiny in any meaningful sense; on those few occasions that he has stepped forward (the chess sacrifice, for example) it has always been for someone else. (This theory is set out in some more detail in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38730). Likewise, the Cannons' motto suggests a passive attitude which precludes any chance the Cannons might otherwise have for achieving success in the Quidditch professional league. I also think it's significant that the Cannons have a winning past, suggesting that with the right changes and most importantly the right attitude, the Cannons could win again. I see Ron in that light as well -- he is quite talented and capable of high achievement, or he would not be so successful at chess, which is his other passion besides the Cannons. Indeed, the fact that Ron's old battered chess set was inherited from his grandfather reinforces the notion that he has a legacy to live up to. Certainly he seems to have a great rapport with his chessmen, who trust him as he does not trust himself away from the chessboard. So, if his loyalty to the Cannons, who are mired in mediocrity, is a symbol of his self-doubt, then perhaps the chess set represents the innate talents that he has inherited, and which he can put to use if he so chooses. The Cannon's motto has appeared to date only in QTTA (IIRC), so its canonical status may be questioned by some, but I believe that there are references to the Cannons' mediocrity in the novels themselves. If in OoP or at any time in the future we see a reference to a new attitude taking over the Cannons, I would not take that as a sign that Voldemort will be defeated. I would take that as signaling to us that Ron might be ready at last to take charge of his own life. While I believe this will happen at some point in the series (triggered, possibly by a tragedy or near-tragedy), I think Ron has a bit of soul-searching to do first, which he has to date been reluctant to undertake except at a very subconscious level. Debbie rejoicing with the rest of the fandom over today's announcement [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From snorth at ucla.edu Thu Jan 16 09:06:00 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 01:06:00 -0800 Subject: Quidditch: Ron, Wizarding population and the rules References: <002e01c2bd37$b20024c0$723b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> Message-ID: <000f01c2bd3e$7f8e7620$0100a8c0@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 49876 Debbie: > The Cannon's motto has appeared to date only in QTTA (IIRC), so its canonical status may be questioned by some. Me: I'm going to go out on a limb here (*grin*), but since QTTA was written by JKR, I proclaim that anyone who questions its status as canon is a putz. On a totally unrelated note, was anyone else overcome with despair that they'd have to wait a solid six more months before they could read OotP? Don't get me wrong, I'm glad there's a release date; it's the first step to actually getting it published. However, six months for me is 10 midterms and 8(!) finals, probably 48 homework assignments (approximately), over 300 hours of class, about 250 hours of work probably over tens of thousands of lines of code, and countless sums performed in my head. *shudders* Six months is FOREVER. -Scott (sorry for going OT) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Jan 16 09:27:36 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 09:27:36 -0000 Subject: The Book: Maybe it's a good thing. In-Reply-To: <000f01c2bd3e$7f8e7620$0100a8c0@xyrael> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49877 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Scott Northrup" wrote: > > Me: > ..edited... > ... was anyone else overcome with despair that they'd have to wait > a solid six more months before they could read OotP? > > ... six months for me is > 10 midterms > 8(!) finals > 48 homework assignments (approximately) > 300 hours of class > 250 hours of work ...over tens of thousands of lines of code, > countless sums performed in my head. *shudders* > > Six months is FOREVER. > > -Scott bboy_mn: In view of your schedule, perhaps it's best if the book doesn't come out for 6 more months. Also, you forgot- 200 bottles of beer 30 pizza 40 parties 150 hamburgers 100 orders of french fries 80 hours of nightclub dancing and all the other staples of college life. Yes, I think it's best if you wait until the end of the school year. Of course, that just my opinon. bboy_mn From gansecki at hawaii.edu Thu Jan 16 04:52:59 2003 From: gansecki at hawaii.edu (lavaluvn ) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 04:52:59 -0000 Subject: Arabella Figg & cabbage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49878 bboy_mn: > > Who thinks Mrs. Figg is just a nice old lady, and believes that she is more likely to be Sirius's maternal grandmother or great aunt than she is to be a beautiful young woman who spent 13 years as an old lady > just so she could babysite Harry 2 or 3 times a year. > > And who do you speculate this beautiful young woman might be???? > ...Lilly? Lilly and Petunia's other sister? Lilly's sister via here > other father? Dumbledore's daughter? ...Snapes daughter or girl > friend. Mrs. Norris during the week, beautiful old poly-juice maden on > weekends? I see no logical purpose for her to be anything other than > the story has indicated so far. Me: Ah, the answer lies in someone's posting from last week (sorry, don't remember who!) lamenting that we have all these thirty-something available (if somewhat tortured or twisted) bachelors - Sirius, Lupin, Snape - and not a single thirty- or even twenty-something female for future matchmaking. Very bothersome to many readers! It certainly seems that any one of them could do with some female companionship. Thus, lovely ex-school chum Arabella Figg in disguise becomes the only romantic ray of hope. Not that it seems in the least bit likely to me. No doubt crotchety old Mrs. Figg will show up to teach DADA with cats in tow and insist that all the students put doilies on their desks. At least we'll find out in six months! -Cheryl longtime lurker; also doing the happy dance tonight From renati at link.net.id Thu Jan 16 09:00:08 2003 From: renati at link.net.id (Renati Adriani) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 16:00:08 +0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quidditch Miscellania In-Reply-To: <741F0B9A0NHMMGPL322XPMIEXR766.3e25db94@tk> References: <734013104.20030115215403@tut.by> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49879 Hi, this is my first post here so please be gentle. >Alexander : >> Now, there are reserve players in Hogwarts teams as well. > >Are there? >From Chapter 11 of PS, Lee Jordan's commentary of the Gryffindor vs Slytherin game: "And she's really belting along up there, a neat pass to Alicia Spinnet, a good find of Oliver Wood's, last year only a reserve-" >Then why does the main team apparently train alone? If you have enough >players to form two teams which play training matches against each other you >normally seize the chance, don`t you? My guess is that they have separate practice schedules, with only the occasional joint session for training matches. Perhaps the reserve team doesn?t need to practice that often, and Wood being as driven as he is, he?d much rather spend his time fine-tuning the main team anyway. >Also, at the end of PS Ron tell's Harry "we've been steamrollered without you" but >doesn't mention who played seeker. And in Harry's nightmare in PoA he dreams the >team had to use Neville as seeker. Remembering Neville's flying skills, this surely isn't a >n option in reality. All in all, it seems like they have no second seeker, or any reserve >players at all. I forgot - do we know who the last Gryffindor seeker was before Harry came along? Harry could?ve gotten the job because a) there was a real vacancy after the previous seeker graduated, or b) the team already had a seeker who simply wasn?t much good. In the case of b), the unnamed seeker might get demoted to the reserve team to make way for Harry, and subsequently took his place in that "steamrollered" Ravenclaw match. Which might explain why McGonagall and Wood were so excited to discover Harry. :) Sorry for any typos and choppy editing - I?m still trying to get the hang of this. Tituk From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Jan 16 11:06:05 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:06:05 -0000 Subject: Quidditch Reserve Team Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49880 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Renati Adriani wrote: > Hi, this is my first post here so please be gentle. > > > From Chapter 11 of PS, Lee Jordan's commentary of the Gryffindor vs > Slytherin game: > "... Alicia Spinnet, a good find of Oliver Wood's, last year only a > reserve-" > > >Then why does the main team apparently train alone? If you have > > enough players to form two teams ... > > > >Also, at the end of PS "we've been steamrollered withoutyou" but > >doesn't mention who played seeker. ...edited... All in all, it > > seems like they have no second seeker, or any reserve players > >at all. > > I forgot - do we know who the last Gryffindor seeker was before > Harry came along? > > ..edited... > > Tituk bboy_mn: I think the existance of a reserve team is based on need and available players. Classe sizes are very small now, so there aren't a lot of available player to choose from. Gryffindor has a strong team once they find Harry, so that's all they need. There is not reserve team, and yes, they did play the 'steamrolled' game without a seeker. When McGonagall introduces Harry to Wood, she says, 'Wood I've found you a Seeker." Not a replacement Seeker, or another Seeker or a different Seeker, but a Seeker. That makes me think the position was open. Who ever it was, graduated the year before. I suspect McGonagall was intentionally watching the new Gryffindor student to size them up as potential Quidditch players. When she saw Harry flying, it was like a dream come true. I bet she even did a 'happy dance' before she ran down to the grounds. Alicia Spinnet was probably a excellent Chaser, but not much good at other positions, although, I'm sure at least functional. So until a position opened up, she was on reserve. I have to assume that the person she replaced also graduated. Now let's look at how and why they would create a reserve team. (This same thing actually came up a week or so ago). The team currently has an opening; Wood is gone. After this (5th) year, the rest of the team will be gone except Harry and the new Keeper. Next year they will have no team. So this year, they recruit the replacements (3 chasers and 2 Beaters) and start training them on the reserve team. That way they are skilled, practiced and ready for next years season. So while the current team plays, the reserve team practices and gets ready for next year. They really haven't needed that, since, as I said before, they had a full strong team, and no one was about to leave (graduate). Another note, they can change players. Slytherin did it. When they come to one game, Lee Jordan points out that the Slytherin captain has replaced his player with much larger guys. He went for size and intimidation factor, rather than speed and skill. So apparently, team members can change between games, but not during a game. So, if Wood had had someone who could play Seeker, he could have brought that person to the game. But there don't seem to be any likely candidates. And they really didn't have the time to test out new player to see if anyone was even remotely able to play Seeker. They were stuck. Now if the school was at full 1,000 student capacity, there would be lots of students to choose from and they could conceivably keep a second string of player available. But as it is, I have a hard time seeing where they are going to come up with five new player. Colin and Dennis seem too small for Beaters, and being muggle-born are probably not skilled flyers. Dean and Seamus could have potential, but Deam is a muggle-born too. The only people left are the underclassmen; years 1 through 4. Since we only know a couple of underclassmen, they will have to introduce some new characters. In my opinion, the hardest player to replace are going to be the Beaters because they have to be strong. We don't have may boys and the Gryffindor girls don't seem to have expressed much interest. Year 6 team: Chasers - Colin, Ginny, Seamus Beaters - ??? (Dean?, Neville?, Hermione?) Keeper - Ron (we know Ron can fly) Seeker - Harry If anybody has any better suggestion, I'm open to hearing them. Alternative 6th year: Chasers - Seamus, Dean, (Ginny?), ???? Beaters - Ron and Harry Keeper - Neville??, Hermione?? Seeker - Colin or Ginny Just a few thoughts. Bboy_mn From srae1971 at iglou.com Thu Jan 16 12:38:34 2003 From: srae1971 at iglou.com (Shannon) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 07:38:34 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] In case you didn't know... plus a suggestion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030116073353.00b4be18@mail.iglou.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49881 At 08:53 PM 1/15/2003 +0000, you wrote: >In the UK there are adult's and children's versions (same text, >different covers). May I suggest that we all be certain to get a >copy of the adult edition to help convince the media that HP is not >just for kids! I'm not sure they have different versions here in the US, but if they did I would still get the "kid" version. Two reasons: the covers are more interesting, and I think it's silly that people think they need to feel embarrassed by what they are reading. I wouldn't support that notion by buying an "adult" cover. Shannon From Ali at zymurgy.org Thu Jan 16 12:52:38 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali ) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 12:52:38 -0000 Subject: Why Do Wizards Celebrate Christmas? In-Reply-To: <20030116025340.43214.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49882 > "gkjpo " wrote: > Easter can also be translated into a general holiday. Easter egg hunts aren't exactly religious. > > > [snip] I agree ... that they celebrate more in the general > sense than any specifically religious sense. But, it's not a religious school, so I would expect that they wouldn't be able to have any religion-specific celebrations anyway. I don't know about schools in Britian, but in the US it is customary to have time off around Christmas and the beginning of spring (not necessarily right at Easter), so Hogwarts is consistent with what I'm used to (in the > US). Me: British school holidays are normally called Christmas, Easter and Sumer holidays. The fact that Hogwarts is not a religious school would not matter. And yes, they might well be able to have religion- specific celebrations. In Britain we do not have the State/Religious divide that I believe happens in the United States and perhaps many other countries. Out Head of State, the Queen is also the Supreme Head of the Church of England which is the official religion of England. The fact that Britain has a very secular society would not alter this. Barb: > It's also worth noting that when there is a special event on Christmas evening, it is called the Yule Ball. Not the Christmas Ball--Yule. Yule is an ancient pre-Christian winter holiday in the British Isles. It is in part because of various age-old Yule traditions--such as wassailling (going door to door singing and expecting money or food/drink in return) that we now have some Christmas traditions, such as caroling (the ghosts at Hogwarts are depicted caroling in the corridors--and even the suits of armor, IIRC). Also, despite the modern use of the English word "Easter" for what is called "Paschal" in a number of Romance languages (or a variation thereof), "Easter" was originally a pagan deity whose feast was celebrated in the spring, and like Yule, worship of Easter went back many, many years in the British Isles to pre-Christian times. So the use of the phrase "Easter break" may not have any Christian overtones at all, when you think about it, if the original meaning is being used.>> me: I partly agree with this. At least some of the success of Christianity in Britain - and elsewhere - was that it took over existing festivals. Our religious festivals are combinations of the Christian and pre-Christian religion in Britain. Most people now celebrate these in a secular rather than religious way, and there origins would be unknown to most people. the use of "Yule Logs" and even the saying "Yuletide Greetings" are common at Christmas, and again would be associated with Christmas celebrationswhatever their non-Christian origins. Barb; >> However, one must also consider Ron's information about the almost constant intermarriage between wizards and Muggles over the centuries, and also consider the steady influx of new Muggle-born witches and wizards into the wizarding world every year. Through both marriage and Muggle-born magical children getting their letters, significant Muggle influence is flowing into the wizarding world all of the time, and it is not inconceivable that there are many magical folk who celebrate Christmas and Easter in either the religious or secular sense, just as one will find people's observance of these holidays running the gamut from pious to completely areligious in the Muggle world.>> I would also argue that the divide between the wizard and Muggle worlds only seems to have happened with the presecution of wizards after Christianity came to Britain, as such, it would be more than possible that many British wizards would have Christianity as their base religion just like their Muggle counterparts. In terms of representation of other religions at Hogwarts, I don't believe that it has ever been JKR's intention to dwell much on either religion or ethnicity. She shows discrimination and prejudice through the wizard/Muggle divide, and differences in colour or custom are really only glimpsed at to show us that these are accepted without issue. Christianity has a higher profile as it is shown in an institionalised way, common to English* schools. Ali *I say English as Scottish schools do work differently, and I believe that at least when JKR started writing the Potterverse her source of inspiration would have been English schools as it was only later that she lived and worked in Scotland. (My second attempt at writing on this subject thanks to Yahoomort) From lupinesque at yahoo.com Thu Jan 16 14:07:09 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 06:07:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: FILK: Here Comes Book Five! Message-ID: <20030116140709.80138.qmail@web20308.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49883 Here Comes Book Five! to the tune of I Will Survive (hear the original at http://www.joycehurley.com/sounds/survive.ram) Dedicated to all the HPfGUers who have waited so patiently or impatiently (Bloomsbury speaks. Millions of Harry Potter the world over, regardless of what language they speak or whether they like disco, leap up and begin to sing) First there was the boy who lived to get the Stone Jo promised six more Harry volumes and the future shone So many of us hanging on what would happen next She must be a witch from Bath, cause this book was hexed Into Hogwarts' Chamber we gladly went And those dead-sexy stars of Prisoner, well, they were heaven-sent By July 2000 (G.o.F.), the fandom was a throng Ten million strong, forming lines a mile long Weve analyzed! Picked nits galore! Weve exhausted every theory, dont know what to say no more Schoolbooks and movies couldnt keep us satisfied We thought wed crumble--we almost lay down and died But weve survived! Here comes Book Five! Oh, as long as Jo keeps writing them, well somehow stay alive. We face a hundred sixty days Of anticipatory haze But well survive, we will survive! Hey hey . . . Weve spent thirty-one months picking plots apart, Dissecting poor old Trevor, parsing Averys heart Whos Florence? JKR might ask, but we are unashamed-- If things have gotten just a bit far-fetched, its she who should be blamed But now no more! The ends in sight! Well call in sick, stock up on snacks, and prepare to read all night Now were Ordering our Phoenixes and haunting the P.O. Come June, well have em quicker than you can say Accio! Were lining up by the bookstore Weve come with sleeping bags, were armed with copies of book four At 12:01 well trade our Sickles for a novel HP high By quarter after, well know which special fan must die Here comes Book Five! We have survived! Thanks to Rowling and her wizard ilk, imagination thrives Well carry on our happy chore, re-reading one through four And then Book Five! Here comes Book Five! . . . . . .and the jubilant voices fade off into the direction of the nearest bookstore Amy Z ===== It's better than Malfoy's . . . It's NIMBUS 2003 Florida, July 17-20, 2003 Register at http://www.hp2003.org/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From mb2910 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 16 14:44:07 2003 From: mb2910 at hotmail.com (Meira B) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 16:44:07 +0200 Subject: Why Do Wizards Celebrate Christmas? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49884 As usual, I can only back up my opinions with what I know. Here in Israel, we have many holidays. The length of vacation for each varies from one day (Purim - sort of like Haloween - for example) to several weeks (like Passover). Until the end of high-school, wether the school is religious or not, the kids get those holidays. Now that I am at the university, I was apalled that in Hannuka we only got *ONE* day off, when it's usually about a week off. (*wibble* I hope we get a decent vacation for Passover). Holidays are there for a few reasons: First of all, because of the religious or historical meaning they have. Second, you get to eat special food (like Matzos in Passover, or chocolate eggs in Easter). It's not nearly half as much fun eating Matzos when it's not Passover ;-). Another good reason for a holiday is becaue they cause people to do something that is not work or study for a few days. IMO, Wizards celebrate Christmas and Easter not only because of their religious meaning, but also because of the time-off and because any reason to celebrate is a good one :). Meira. "Oh God...why me?!" And in as pontifical a voice as I could muster, I boomed, "BECAUSE THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT YOU THAT REALLY PISSES ME OFF!" ~Q in "I, Q" / Peter David and John de Lancie"~ _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From beccablue42 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 16 13:26:51 2003 From: beccablue42 at hotmail.com (beccablue42 ) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 13:26:51 -0000 Subject: Pushing Up Daisies (Was RE: Dumbledore's Knowledge (OOP)) In-Reply-To: <20030115233136.9702.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49885 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nicole L." wrote: > Richelle said: > > > > > Also, I can't help but wonder. Why is Harry lying > > flat on his back in a > > flowerbed?!? > > > > As soon as I read this quote on CNN while at work > today, I immediately thought, "It's Harry and I'll bet > he had another of those dreams/visions where he saw > Voldemort and something *really* bad happened." > That's my theory and I'm stickin' to it until proven > wrong. :) > > ~Nicole My turn: I agree with that. I instantly thought that he was lost in thought, pondering the dark days ahead and how he will have to meet the future as it comes. Often, JKR begins with a description of Harry's inner thoughts about his past experiences (as a way of filling in new readers), and I picture her using Harry's thoughts now to fill that narrative gap, as he gazes at the sky, lost in the thoughts of Wormtail and Voldemort and their endless mayhem. But now I like the dream/vision idea. Yeah. Becca, who has decided that knowing about the book publication calls for de-lurking. From becky at mackenab.com Thu Jan 16 15:08:09 2003 From: becky at mackenab.com (Becky ) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 15:08:09 -0000 Subject: alternate flowerbed theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49886 The quote says that Harry was the only one "left" outside. That implies that there were other people outside previously. I think it means that Dudley had been outside with some friends. The gang attacked Harry somehow with the fight finishing with Harry on his back in the flowerbed. I can't see Harry simply laying down on a flowerbed and the idea that he had a vision taht knocked him out seems a little far fetched. It does seem typical that she starts with a sceme with the general meaness of the Dursley's and particuarly the nastiness of Dudley emphasised. From kermit13166 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 16 13:35:11 2003 From: kermit13166 at yahoo.com (kermit13166 ) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 13:35:11 -0000 Subject: Lily Potter question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49887 Just a simple question about Lily...do the books ever say what house she belonged to? My kids and I have both read the books numerous times and don't recall seeing her house. If anyone knows, could you direct me to the location! Thanks Kermit From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 16 15:43:33 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 07:43:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] In case you didn't know... plus a suggestion In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030116073353.00b4be18@mail.iglou.com> Message-ID: <20030116154333.98687.qmail@web40503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49888 --- Shannon wrote: > At 08:53 PM 1/15/2003 +0000, you wrote: > > >In the UK there are adult's and children's versions > (same text, > >different covers). May I suggest that we all be > certain to get a > >copy of the adult edition to help convince the > media that HP is not > >just for kids! > > I'm not sure they have different versions here in > the US, but if they did I > would still get the "kid" version. Two reasons: > the covers are more > interesting, and I think it's silly that people > think they need to feel > embarrassed by what they are reading. I wouldn't > support that notion by > buying an "adult" cover. > > Shannon I'm not sure, but I think in the US the "adult version" is the paper backs with the solid color background and then a black and white picture. But, I haven't seen this alternate cover in hard back...so whoe knows. ~Kathryn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From gandharvika at hotmail.com Thu Jan 16 17:30:17 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 17:30:17 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Long, Long, Long Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49889 Long, Long, Long (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Long, Long, Long_ by the Beatles) Here's a Midi: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle15.html Dedicated to Nicole I'm going to be singing this one while waiting in line for my copy! It's been a long, long, long time Can't believe that it's true The fifth volume This sure's a long, long, long line Now I'll be happy soon Standing in queue About three years I have waited Now it is here, I'm elated oh oh Now I can see it, own it Not long until I read it How I've wanted it Coming in June Order of the Phoenix Makes it's debut -Gail B...who's going to pre-order from Amazon.com *and* stand in line at my local B & N since I know durn well that I'll be so excited that I won't be able to sleep that night anyway! _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Thu Jan 16 17:35:03 2003 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 17:35:03 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily Potter question References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49890 Canon does not say, speculation runs from Griffindor though the back door to hufflepuff and then jumps though the window to Ravenclaw. There are a small number who figure that she was in Sylerian and that part of Harry potter is 'romeo and juliet' esqe. Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ksnidget at aol.com Thu Jan 16 17:47:01 2003 From: ksnidget at aol.com (ksnidget ) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 17:47:01 -0000 Subject: Lily Potter question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49891 Kermit asked: >Just a simple question about Lily...do the books ever say what house >she belonged to? My kids and I have both read the books numerous >times and don't recall seeing her house. If anyone knows, could you >direct me to the location! Thanks The books do not say what her house is. But JKR has been asked this in an interview. It is up to you whether you accept her answer as cannon or not (some will some won't) Q: Which house was Lily Potter in, and what is her maiden name? JKR: Her maiden name was Evans, and she was in Gryffindor (naturally). http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm Ksnidget From karnasaur at yahoo.com Thu Jan 16 17:08:56 2003 From: karnasaur at yahoo.com (Kristjan Arnason) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 09:08:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Regarding dates... In-Reply-To: <1042731439.2518.78119.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030116170856.42325.qmail@web10401.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49893 Hi, I noticed something the other day. As we know, we can date the series because the CoS, in Harry's second year, mentions a party on Hallowe'en 1992. I thought about this, and this means the seventh book will start in 1997, the year the first HP book was released. I can't help but think of a small scene where Harry, Ron and Hermione might walk into a coffee shop and see a single mum writing.... Just a thought. K __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From sophiamcl at hotmail.com Thu Jan 16 17:10:18 2003 From: sophiamcl at hotmail.com (sophiamcl ) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 17:10:18 -0000 Subject: Lily Potter question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49894 Kermit said: >Just a simple question about Lily...do the books ever say what house >she belonged to? My kids and I have both read the books numerous >times and don't recall seeing her house. If anyone knows, could you >direct me to the location! Thanks As far as I know, the information is not in the books. However, Rowling has stated in an on-line chat that Lily belonged to Gryffindor. You can read a transcript of that chat at www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm Sophia From snorth at ucla.edu Thu Jan 16 18:29:59 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:29:59 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] alternate flowerbed theory References: Message-ID: <002501c2bd8d$4895f220$0100a8c0@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 49895 Becky: > The quote says that Harry was the only one "left" outside. That > implies that there were other people outside previously. I think it > means that Dudley had been outside with some friends. The gang > attacked Harry somehow with the fight finishing with Harry on his > back in the flowerbed. I can't see Harry simply laying down on a > flowerbed and the idea that he had a vision taht knocked him out > seems a little far fetched. It does seem typical that she starts > with a sceme with the general meaness of the Dursley's and > particuarly the nastiness of Dudley emphasised. Me: Maybe.. at this point, it could be anything. You'd think that Dudley would be absolutely terrified of messing with Harry in ANY way at this point, between the piggy tail, his Aunt Marge being blown up (were the Dursley's memories erased, or just Marge's? It almost seems like they'd all have to have been; I don't see Harry coming back otherwise), the ton tongue toffee, etc. Of course, we haven't seen much common sense coming from Dudley in the past, so I guess anything is possible. -Scott From stormlass at yahoo.com Thu Jan 16 18:10:28 2003 From: stormlass at yahoo.com (snapesrighthand) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:10:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Arabella Figg & cabbage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030116181028.19733.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49896 bboy_mn: > > Who thinks Mrs. Figg is just a nice old lady, and believes that she is more likely to be Sirius's maternal grandmother or great aunt than she is to be a beautiful young woman who spent 13 years as an old lady > just so she could babysite Harry 2 or 3 times a year. > > And who do you speculate this beautiful young woman might be???? > ...Lilly? Lilly and Petunia's other sister? Lilly's sister via here > other father? Dumbledore's daughter? ...Snapes daughter or girl > friend. Mrs. Norris during the week, beautiful old poly-juice maden on > weekends? I see no logical purpose for her to be anything other than > the story has indicated so far. I actually have an unusual theory. I think Mrs. Figg is Hedwig. Rowling mentioned Harry might be recieving a new pet in the next book. If Mrs. Figg is Hedwig and also a protector of his and has to come out to play with Voldemort... She just might have to give up her post. I think when Sirius said he would be seeing Harry soon he ment it. He is going to be at Mrs. Figgs house! I just know it. I think Lupin will be there to. I do not know who she is. I kind of thought she might be Dumbledores wife? She can visit her hustband by floo. I don't know. Maybe I am crazy. The cabbage smell of her house I relate to polyjuice so... she "has" to be somone! Alex ===== It is a tough job, but somone has to do it! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From urbana at charter.net Thu Jan 16 18:54:59 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne ) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 18:54:59 -0000 Subject: FILK: Here Comes Book Five! In-Reply-To: <20030116140709.80138.qmail@web20308.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49897 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Amy Z wrote: > Here Comes Book Five! > > to the tune of "I Will Survive" (hear the original at > http://www.joycehurley.com/sounds/survive.ram) > > Dedicated to all the HPfGUers who have waited so > patiently or impatiently > > (Bloomsbury speaks. Millions of Harry Potter the > world over, regardless of what language they speak or > whether they like disco, leap up and begin to sing) .... > Here comes Book Five! We have survived! > Thanks to Rowling and her wizard ilk, imagination > thrives > We'll carry on our happy chore, re-reading one through > four > And then Book Five! Here comes Book Five! . . . > > > > . . .and the jubilant voices fade off into the > direction of the nearest bookstore > > Amy Z > The really weird thing is... I can actually imagine this happening:-) So who's going to photocopy 8,347,519 copies of this to hand out at bookstores around the world at 11:45 p.m. on June 20th?? I think this group will need to find choral directors to hang out at each bookstore, pass out copies of the filk, and get people SINGING! Anne U (not to mention the requisite conga lines through the HP section) From debmclain at yahoo.com Thu Jan 16 19:11:13 2003 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie McLain ) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 19:11:13 -0000 Subject: more speculation Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49898 Snuffles srsiriusblack at a... wrote: > After having been kept fully awake in thought on our newly released lines... > What if Dumbledore is actually James' father or grandfather. - The latter > more likely as to age. To protect Harry from thing which he may not have been > ready to understand in DD eyes, he may not have told Harry. Harry's return to > the Dursleys for protection would have kept Hogwarts completely safe- as DD > would have rationalised. DD is the only wizard of whom V. was ever > frightened, yet Harry is the one who sent him into a bodiless existence. > Perhaps the strength of DD lies in Harry. > DD has always been a paternal figure to Harry- even more so than Sirius or Remus who played paternal roles. Me: DD can't be Harry's grandfather. In the beginning of SS/PS, McGonagall never says she's so sorry DD's son was killed. And in fact, DD says himself "I've come to bring Harry to his aunt and uncle. They're the only family he has left now." Family includes anyone even remotely related to you. I think Voldy killed all the Potters over time, and I mean ALL - at least the ones still left over from V's ancestor's not killing them. After all, they are the heirs to Gryffindor, which means they are the "official" fighters of evil. Okay, okay... it's all theory, but I'm pretty much convinced I will be proven correct in OoP. Harry is the last one, the one the entire WW is counting on to save them. That's what DD has to tell him (besides the other messy stuff about his parents, of course). Hmmm... starting to sound like "The Matrix"... -Debbie who screamed and stopped making dinner to check the internet when her husband of all people gave her the news in an "oh, yeah, by the way.." tone. From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 16 19:25:32 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:25:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: more speculation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030116192532.10644.qmail@web20005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49899 --- "Debbie McLain " wrote: > Snuffles srsiriusblack at a... wrote: > > After having been kept fully awake in thought on > our newly released > lines... > > What if Dumbledore is actually James' father or > grandfather. - What if he's really Ron all aged up? He used to have red hair. And Ron went back in time and became Dumbledore? And that comment about his brother was really a joke on Percy? Hmm, wouldn't that be funny? :) Okay so I'm being silly. But I thought of the idea (never believed it)the first time I found out his hair used to be red. I'm weird. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From chthonicdancer at hotmail.com Thu Jan 16 19:48:01 2003 From: chthonicdancer at hotmail.com (chthonia9 ) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 19:48:01 -0000 Subject: "[Five] Years": Canon precedence Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49900 Hi folks, I was planning to restrain myself from logging on for a while, but couldn't keep away after yesterday's news... Sorry if this has been raised before, but I just found this at the end of GOF (pg 605, UK children's edition): "'Yes,' said Dumbledore. 'Mr Ollivander wrote to tell me you had bought the second wand, the moment you left his shop four years ago.'" Start of PP/SS - end of GOF = four years implies Start of PP/SS - end of OOP = five years So no FLINT (what exactly is a flint, anyhow?), just DD rounding time to the nearest year: "five years ago" means roughly "when you re- entered the wizarding world." And 'everything' will be revealed (or not) at the *end* of OOP. I can't believe how much speculation we're wringing out of six sentences! What's it going to be like with 768 *pages*?!! I love this list! :-) Chthonia (who thought that Harry was happily enjoying a rare Summer's day in the flowerbed, and after reading a couple of weeks worth of posts last night concludes that she doesn't have a hope of working out the OOP plot before page 765 or so. It had never even *occured* to her that the Malfoys owned the Riddle House...) From gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 16 20:03:07 2003 From: gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com (gingersnape1966 ) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 20:03:07 -0000 Subject: Why Do Wizards Celebrate Christmas? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49901 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali " wrote: > > British school holidays are normally called Christmas, Easter and > Summer holidays. The fact that Hogwarts is not a religious school > would not matter. And yes, they might well be able to have religion- > specific celebrations. In Britain we do not have the State/Religious > divide that I believe happens in the United States and perhaps many > other countries. Our Head of State, the Queen is also the Supreme > Head of the Church of England which is the official religion of > England. The fact that Britain has a very secular society would not > alter this. Me: I think this is the best explanation. In the US, with all our diversity (good thing) and all our political correctness (bad thing- what about just plain common courtesy and respect for others?) we tend to forget that other countries are not like us no matter how similar we may be. Of course, this only covers the adults. I think the kids' feelings can best be summed up in the words of Ron Weasley in ch 11 of PoA: "Oy! Presents!" Christmas comes in June this year! Ginger, who thanks JKR for holding off the release until Ginger has birthday money to buy the book, and is now going back to squealing in delight. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Jan 16 20:33:19 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 20:33:19 -0000 Subject: Arabella Figg & cabbage In-Reply-To: <20030116181028.19733.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49902 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, snapesrighthand wrote: > bboy_mn: > > > > Who thinks Mrs. Figg is just a nice old lady, ... > > > > And who do you speculate this beautiful young woman might > > be???? ... I see no logical purpose for her to be anything > > other than the story has indicated so far. > > -end this part- > > I actually have an unusual theory. I think Mrs. Figg is Hedwig. > ... If Mrs. Figg is Hedwig and also a protector ... . > I think when Sirius said he would be seeing Harry soon he > ment it. He is going to be at Mrs. Figgs house! > ...edited... The cabbage smell of her house I relate > to polyjuice so... she "has" to be somone! > Alex bboy_mn: Well, you know my position on the poly-juice; I just don't buy it. BUT, I LOVE!!! the idea that Harry will go over to Mrs. Figgs and find Sirius and Remus. THAT IS why Harry is laying in the flower bed at the beginning of OotP. He was called over to her house, went reluctantly (dreading the smell of cabbage and cat) wondering what she wanted. As he walked up to the house, the door opened and there to greet him are Sirius and Remus. Harry faints dead away and fall into Mrs. Figgs flowerbed. Hey, it could happen. As far as Hedwig, that is a stretch in my mind. Hedwig isn't seen a lot in the story, but she is always available in the owlery when Harry needs her. These 'needs' are usually very random and unpredictable, so it's not like Mrs. Figg at home, who could get a lot of breaks from the poly-juice and the muggles. The only thing worse that being poly-juiced for 13 years, is to now have to spend you life as an owl flying halfway around the world to deliver letters. Another point is at school Hedwig isn't with Harry vary much, and at home, Hedwig has been known to fly away for days at a time (presumably hunting). So, Hedwig doesn't seem like a very good protector. Scabbers would have made a much better protector, if he hadn't turn out to be such a RAT. I think there could be something very special about Hedwig, I just can't picture it being that extreme. But then, that's just my opinion. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Jan 16 22:07:04 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 22:07:04 -0000 Subject: Hagrid/the Chamber/the Monster Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49903 Just a quick thought on Hagrid and Aragog. Seeking people's opinion on whether the Staff at Hogwarts and the Ministry thought Aragog was the monster in the Chamber of Secrets, or it they thought that is was Hagrid and Aragog all along, and the this Chamber of Secrets business was, as they had suspected for decades, just a bunch of nonsense. The reason I ask is because I have always felt that if anyone with a brain bigger than a peanut had analysed the situation, they would have seen it couldn't be Hagrid and Aragog. But I alway thought they were so desparate for a solution and to end this embarassment to the Ministry (they always seem more concerned with their embarassement, than they do with actually solving problems) that the latched on to the first good excuse that came along. But now I wonder is they didn't just say, 'Well, I knew this monster of Slytherin was nonsense. You see it was Hagrid all along. The Daily Prophet will be thrill to hear we've solved it." Of course, even this approach is self-delusional since Acromantula don't kill or petrify people the way a Basilisk does. So, you opinion- Aragog was the Slytherin monster, or it was Aragog instead of the Slytherin monster? What say you all? bboy_mn From spi00000000 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 16 20:13:58 2003 From: spi00000000 at yahoo.com (spi00000000 ) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 20:13:58 -0000 Subject: Regarding dates... In-Reply-To: <20030116170856.42325.qmail@web10401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49904 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kristjan Arnason wrote: > Hi, > > I noticed something the other day. As we know, we can > date the series because the CoS, in Harry's second > year, mentions a party on Hallowe'en 1992. I thought > about this, and this means the seventh book will start > in 1997, the year the first HP book was released. > > I can't help but think of a small scene where Harry, > Ron and Hermione might walk into a coffee shop and see > a single mum writing.... > > Just a thought. > > K > > __________________________________________________ How about this--- Harry and Ron walk into a coffee shop and see a single mum writing... and they shout, "Hermione!!!!" Spi The newbie who is waiting till OoP comes out to even finish GoF! From Heleen at ptdprolog.net Thu Jan 16 20:31:39 2003 From: Heleen at ptdprolog.net (Heleen Greenwald) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 15:31:39 -0500 Subject: Can Real Wizards Apologize? WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Flowerbed and Dumbledore (OOP) References: <20030115191715.92390.qmail@web20415.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00f101c2bd9e$466323e0$a500a8c0@boghouse> No: HPFGUIDX 49905 Everyone, pay close attention. "Should have." As we all know, Real Wizards Don't Apologize. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why don't wizard's apologize? Where does it say in Cannon that they don't ? I never realized this before. Phillipa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dicentra at xmission.com Thu Jan 16 22:27:02 2003 From: dicentra at xmission.com (dicentra63 ) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 22:27:02 -0000 Subject: Can Real Wizards Apologize? WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Flowerbed and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: <00f101c2bd9e$466323e0$a500a8c0@boghouse> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49906 > Eileen: > > Everyone, pay close attention. "Should have." > > > As we all know, Real Wizards Don't Apologize. > Phillipa: > Why don't wizard's apologize? Where does it say in Cannon that they > don't ? I never realized this before. It's more HPfGU canon than JKR canon. Nowhere in the novels is the statement made that "real wizards don't apologize." But in message 36556, you'll see how the phrase came into existence. --Dicentra From sgarfio at yahoo.com Thu Jan 16 22:59:19 2003 From: sgarfio at yahoo.com (Sherry Garfio) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 14:59:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid/the Chamber/the Monster In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030116225919.93419.qmail@web21408.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49907 bboy_mn wrote: > Seeking people's opinion on whether the Staff at Hogwarts and the > Ministry thought Aragog was the monster in the Chamber of Secrets, or > it they thought that is was Hagrid and Aragog all along, and the this > Chamber of Secrets business was, as they had suspected for decades, > just a bunch of nonsense. > So, you opinion- Aragog was the Slytherin monster, or it was Aragog > instead of the Slytherin monster? > > What say you all? I think they all assumed that it was Aragog instead of the Slytherin monster - all except Dumbledore, of course, and maybe McGonagall. I get this impression from McGonagall's explanation of the "legend", in which she says that the legend is assumed to be false, but she doesn't ever say that *she* thinks it's false. She says that the castle has been searched many times and nothing has been found, which is a nice way of telling ickle children not to worry, the world is fine and dandy, when the adults know darn well that isn't true. I also get this impression from Dumbledore's statement after Colin gets it that the Chamber has been opened *again*. Add to that his trust in Hagrid, which implies that he knows that Hagrid was innocent of all but poor judgement and making the wrong enemies. Okay, that explains why I think Dumbledore and McGonagall knew the truth. As for the MoM and Dippet, Aragog was a nice easy explanation, and it didn't require acceptance of the fact that the Heir of Slytherin was involved. Hagrid is expelled and his wand broken, so now he's harmless and we can all go back to believing that the Chamber doesn't exist. Because if the Chamber *does* exist, then there's a chance that it could happen again, and the MoM doesn't want to believe that. Also, Aragog grew a *lot* in the 50 years since Hagrid was expelled, so he couldn't have been 1000 years old (okay, 950) and be as small as he was when he was discovered. So Aragog couldn't have come from the Chamber; therefore, since it was assumed that Aragog was responsible for the attacks, the Chamber wasn't involved, and probably doesn't exist, which is a nice comfortable thing to believe. The Mudblood aspect was just coincidence. Since the attacks stopped as soon as Aragog was removed, obviously Aragog had been the cause. Sounds like the infallible logic of a politician to me . As for how Acromantulas kill, I don't recall what it says in FB, and the Lexicon doesn't say (venom?). The fact that people were being petrified rather than killed in CoS confused everybody, and the reason was that people weren't getting the full effect of the Basilisk's stare. Could be that in Dippet's day they just assumed that Aragog hadn't gotten a good hold on the petrified students, so they also didn't get the full effect. You would think, however, that those students would have talked after they were restored ("No, it was a snake, not a spider"), unless their memories of the attacks were erased by the petrification. I don't recall Hermione saying anything about her actual attack; she knew it was a Basilisk already, but she never says anything about actually seeing it in her mirror. Anyway, seeing how the Trio's accounts of the events in PoA and GoF are discounted by adults other than Dumbledore, the students who claimed they were attacked by a snake may have been ignored at the time, since they already "knew" it was Aragog and these kids were likely confused. Sherry, rambling with renewed enthusiasm after yesterday's announcement, and giggling over the mental image of McGonagall doing a "happy dance" in her office after seeing Harry catch the Remembrall... ===== "The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above-average drivers." -Dave Barry, "Things That It Took Me 50 Years to Learn" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Thu Jan 16 23:54:39 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 18:54:39 EST Subject: Cursing Draco on the Train Message-ID: <11b.1cd78e8d.2b58a03f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49908 In a message dated 1/15/03 2:07:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, srsiriusblack at aol.com writes: > I actually like that one. It seems like something Draco would do... and > since > Harry and Co. over cursed Draco and Crew on the Hogwarts Express at the end > > of GoF, Draco probably wants revenge. > Which also brings up another question I have been pondering.... I've been thinking about that (how Harry & Co. cursed Draco and his coterie)....why didn't they get in trouble? I can't imagine that the Malfoys didn't complain about this. Draco would've said something to his father, at the very least "That filthy little Mudblood!" or something..... Will Ron, Harry, Hermione, Fred, and George get in trouble for that? I can't imagine that Hogwarts would want to condone that type of thing.... ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ (Who got kicked off a different Yahoo! list a few days ago......) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bloubet at incanmonkey.com Thu Jan 16 23:59:18 2003 From: bloubet at incanmonkey.com (Beth Loubet) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 17:59:18 -0600 Subject: Redeemable Draco Message-ID: <00b301c2bdbb$4ce97ee0$7001a8c0@bloubetdellpc> No: HPFGUIDX 49909 (copied from OTChatter -- it was just too ONTopic to leave there; gathering driftwood for my acronym shack on TBAY ) David (on redeemable Draco): > I just can't remember it, and have to confess I don't know which > way round she means. Who thinks Draco is an abominable little tick > who deserves the Dementor's Kiss but just knows that softie JKR is > going to have him throw himself in front of the AK intended for > Harry? Who feels Draco is really a complex misunderstood and > tortured soul who will never be allowed to do more than lose > Quidditch matches and fail to get the last taunt? Elkins: Any takers? bel: Yep. Step right up and get your programme, can't tell the players without a programme! See Draco taunt Harry because of his own feelings of inadequacy! See Draco belittled and humiliated by his insensitive oaf of a father! See Draco laughed at by Ron and Harry in public! See Draco's (badly handled) offer of friendship to Harry thrown back in his face! See Draco resent Harry's ability to make friends, while he has to buy them! And see Draco sacrificed on the altar of Too Many Bad Choices to Redeem! Don't get me wrong. Draco is an insufferable git. He's a bully, a whiner, a brown-noser. He's also psychologically (if not physically) abused, raised on the "wealth is power, and power is everything" paradigm, and primed to believe from birth that the ends justify the means. Hogwarts is his first opportunity to see that there might be other avenues in life open to him. Yet still, he's constantly (if indirectly) watched by his father -- through Snape, through his father's position as a school governor, even through Draco's only "friends" -- Crabbe and Goyle, the sons of Lucius' friends and co-DEs. Draco hasn't had much of a chance to decide who HE is, who HE really wants to be, outside of his father's influence. I'd love to see him get that chance. He's not, after all, a "big bad". If the book were strictly about a school, Draco would be the big bad. But it's not. The Big Bads in the outside world are just too big for Draco to have any real importance in Harry's life. He's not even successful as a bad guy. He's a royal pain in the patoot, but no more -- which gives him the chance to drop on either side of the fence. I want to see Draco stand up and make a decision for himself as to who he wants to be. Heck, I'd be happy to see him do that no matter WHICH side of the fence he ends up on. But I really think he deserves redemption. He deserves to be able to choose the "right" path. And I don't think that's going to happen. I think that Draco will end up being one of the senseless sacrifices of the war that make us (and Harry) realize how pointless it all is and how urgent it is to make it stop. Draco's tragedy will be that he DOESN'T ever get to make that most important choice on his own and become an adult. He may realize that fact at the end and regret it, but that isn't redemption. It's just regret. DRACO'S TRAGEDY Draco Refuses Adult Choices; Obviously Sacrifices True Redemption; Abused, Guided by Evil Dad to Yield Fire away! bel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From srsiriusblack at aol.com Fri Jan 17 00:11:52 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 19:11:52 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cursing Draco on the Train Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49910 In a message dated 16/01/2003 18:55:57 Eastern Standard Time, SnapesSlytherin at aol.com writes: > I've been thinking about that (how Harry & Co. cursed Draco and his > coterie)....why didn't they get in trouble? I can't imagine that the > Malfoys > didn't complain about this. Draco would've said something to his father, > at > the very least "That filthy little Mudblood!" or something..... Will Ron, > Harry, Hermione, Fred, and George get in trouble for that? I can't imagine > > that Hogwarts would want to condone that type of thing.... this goes back to an earlier question I had... What will the atmosphere be at Hogwarts this year? With the tensions mounting and people like Draco and Co. running amok about the school with their D.E. ideals... how will tensions among students be controlled? Certainly, DD will see that what Harry and Co. did on the train as slightly funny... at least *I* did... but they attacked fellow students.... Hogwarts, although technically not in session at the time, would suspend them for their actions were it not for Harry's gang, but certainly they will be punished- afterall Ron and Harry were punished for stealing the car and flying it to Hogwarts- but only lightly as the term had not yet begun... As for Lucius, in light of the Dark lord returning, I doubt he will raise too much of a commotion with Dumbledore as it would not be an intelligent move for him to do so in the current light... Students are allowed to still use magic on the Hogwarts express- so they weren't technically breaking the under-aged wizard laws.... but certainly cursing people like that yields at least a bent law?? -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From srsiriusblack at aol.com Fri Jan 17 00:23:50 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 19:23:50 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Redeemable Draco Message-ID: <84.767d275.2b58a716@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49911 In a message dated 16/01/2003 18:58:50 Eastern Standard Time, bloubet at incanmonkey.com writes: > Draco hasn't had much of a chance to decide who HE is, who HE really wants > to be, outside of his father's influence. I'd love to see him get that > chance. He's not, after all, a "big bad". If the book were strictly about a > school, Draco would be the big bad. But it's not. The Big Bads in the > outside world are just too big for Draco to have any real importance in > Harry's life. He's not even successful as a bad guy. He's a royal pain in > the patoot, but no more -- which gives him the chance to drop on either > side of the fence. > > I want to see Draco stand up and make a decision for himself as to who he > wants to be. Heck, I'd be happy to see him do that no matter WHICH side of > the fence he ends up on. But I really think he deserves redemption. He > deserves to be able to choose the "right" path. > > And I don't think that's going to happen. I think that Draco will end up > being one of the senseless sacrifices of the war that make us (and Harry) > realize how pointless it all is and how urgent it is to make it stop. > Draco's tragedy will be that he DOESN'T ever get to make that most > important choice on his own and become an adult. He may realize that fact > at the end and regret it, but that isn't redemption. It's just regret. I completely agree with you. As Draco, as much as I like him in the role of baddie, has no idea why he believes the words that spew (HA!) from his mouth. He is a child born out of ignorance, abuse, and poor values, (imho). He is just as many children from families of intolerance. But, he also has a a dynamic to his character that may push him even farther to the side of evil which is the desire to impress his father and obtain a love which has not been evident between them in the cannon. I think it *is* possible that we might see a redeemed Draco, but not before he goes as far evil as he can- possibly like a Snape history. He will fight for his Father's recognition and love, thus trying to prove himself to Voldemort as well doing everything he is told to do. He will think he is buying his father's affections in his actions, but in the end, it will be Lucius to betray Draco- possibly a willingness to sacrifice Draco for power for the Dark Side, yet Harry will be there and Harry will stop Lucius, thereby indebting Draco to him and opening Draco's eyes to the truths that be. Will Draco befriend Harry in the end? Probably not. I see more of the Sirius/Severus handshake than a warm embrace. But, I *do* think that Draco will turn to the side of goodness in the end. After all, that would teach a lesson- that people can overcome their own trials and hatreds to be good people. Or Draco becomes the next big baddie- but I don't think he is bright enough ;) -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From debmclain at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 00:57:19 2003 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie McLain ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 00:57:19 -0000 Subject: Hagrid/the Chamber/the Monster Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49912 Sherry Garfio wrote: The fact that people were being petrified rather > than killed in CoS confused everybody, and the reason was that people weren't > getting the full effect of the Basilisk's stare. Could be that in Dippet's day > they just assumed that Aragog hadn't gotten a good hold on the petrified students, so they also didn't get the full effect. > > You would think, however, that those students would have talked after they were > restored ("No, it was a snake, not a spider"), unless their memories of the > attacks were erased by the petrification. I don't recall Hermione saying > anything about her actual attack; she knew it was a Basilisk already, but she > never says anything about actually seeing it in her mirror. Anyway, seeing how > the Trio's accounts of the events in PoA and GoF are discounted by adults other > than Dumbledore, the students who claimed they were attacked by a snake may > have been ignored at the time, since they already "knew" it was Aragog and > these kids were likely confused. Me: Sherry, I thought the only attack was the death of Myrtle. I didn't think anyone else was attacked. Okay, I'm wrong. Tom Riddle: "In my fifth year, the Chamber was opened and the monster attacked several students, finally killing one." Seems to me the MoM just likes to hurry up and make people happy (see, we caught the student), and not do a thorough job with a full investigation. Possibly why Fudge is now in charge, since he's really Evil!Fudge. :-) I think you are right and they just discounted the other students recalls (it was a snake, you idiot, not a spider!) thinking they were too distraught to know what they were saying. -Debbie doing the happy dance along with everyone else From debmclain at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 01:07:30 2003 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie McLain ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 01:07:30 -0000 Subject: Cursing Draco on the Train Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49913 srsiriusblack at a... writes: > since > Harry and Co. over cursed Draco and Crew on the Hogwarts Express at the end of GoF, Draco probably wants revenge. Oryomai SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: > I've been thinking about that (how Harry & Co. cursed Draco and his > coterie)....why didn't they get in trouble? I can't imagine that the Malfoys > didn't complain about this. Draco would've said something to his father, at > the very least "That filthy little Mudblood!" or something..... Will Ron, > Harry, Hermione, Fred, and George get in trouble for that? I can't imagine > that Hogwarts would want to condone that type of thing.... Me: Draco probably would've been yelled at by his father for being slow. They have all cursed each other numberous other times and didn't get into trouble. I'm sure it happens all the time. So no big punishment would be needed. However, I think things with Draco are going to get much worse than expected in OoP. One thing I absolutely LOVE about this list, is something someone brought up quite a while ago. Notice how everyone, but Harry, steps on Draco & Co, to get off the train. It shows what kind of person he really is. I never would've thought about it in that much detail. -Debbie who is very excited about having a date for the book, but must go now to put the baby to bed From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 01:25:25 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 01:25:25 -0000 Subject: Redeemable Draco (copy from HP4GU-OT) In-Reply-To: <00b301c2bdbb$4ce97ee0$7001a8c0@bloubetdellpc> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49914 I responded in the OT group before I notice that the thread had been moved here, so I'm moving that response over here too. Hope that's OK. --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Beth Loubet" wrote: > > bel: > ...edited... > Don't get me wrong. Draco is an insufferable git. He's a bully, > a whiner, a brown-noser. He's also ... abused, raised on > the "wealth is power, and power is everything" paradigm, ... > > Draco hasn't had much of a chance to decide who HE is, ... > > I want to see Draco stand up and make a decision for himself ... > > I think that Draco will end up being one of the senseless > sacrifices of the war ... > > Draco's tragedy will be that he DOESN'T ever get to make that most > important choice on his own and become an adult. ...edited... > > DRACO'S TRAGEDY > Draco Refuses Adult Choices; Obviously Sacrifices True Redemption; > Abused, Guided by Evil Dad to Yield > > Fire away! > > bel bboy_mn: Well... well... well... I think you can lower your shield Captain Beth there will be no broadside from this starship. (oops, that's Star Trek... back on track now). That was probably the best, most concise and insightful analysis of Draco I've ever read. I don't refute anything you said, but I would like to add a few thoughts of my own. First, Draco will always be a jerk. He will always be annoying and obnoxious. Even if Harry and Ron becomes friends with him; Draco will be that annoying obnoxious irritating friend that we've all had. Draco will always be Draco. That's his personality. I think the greatest joy in his life is irritating Harry. I think he lays awake at night think up new ways. And when and if Draco and the Trio become friends; Draco will still love teasing and annoying the hell out of Harry. He will still lay awake think up new ways to tease him. But being an annoying obnoxious jerk doesn't mean he has to be evil. Next, Draco has lived a life of priviledge. In a sense, in many senses, he has never had to get his hands dirty. Right now all he does is talk his father's talk, and walk his father's walk, but I don't think Draco really has a clue what it means to be a Death Eater. He doesn't know what it's like to watch someone die. He's never had to hear the screams. He doesn't really understand what it means to kill or torture someone. I can just picture Draco meeting Voldemort. Draco walks up to Voldemort smiling, extends his hand, and say, "Hello. Having a good day then?" At this point, Draco doesn't comprehend the bowing, subservience, God-like reverence, and all around kissing of Voldemort's bu... robe... robe that is involved. I think Draco sees his father as a powerful man standing tall at Voldemort's side. The first time, Draco sees his father crawling on the ground, groveling, and kissing the hem of Voldemort's robe it is going to be shock to him. That's not the fathere he thought he knew. A few Cruciatus curses later, for his irreverant and disrespectful greeting of Voldemort, and Draco will quickly discover that being a Death Eater isn't party, party, party. That will be his rude awakening. Then he will have to decide if he is himself. A unigue powerful and proud entity, or if he is a groveling servant of Voldemorts. I think in his own mind Draco sees himself as Lord of his domain. He is Lord, he is not Lorded over (other than by his father), and he assumes that that is how his father sees himself; proud and powerful. Then as the war goes on, and it becomes clear what war and being a Death Eater means, Draco will have a crisis of conscience. He will have to decide if being the petty servant to the master of a world in ruins is better than being a self-made man in an economically stable and prosperous world; a world without the chaos and destruction of war. In a way, I hope Draco will redeem himself in a sense. I say in sense because I know if he chooses the good side it will be for somewhat selfish and possibly cowardly reasons, but none the less, he will have chosen the better path even if he did so for the wrong reasons. So, in summary- -Draco will always be Draco regardless of which side he is on. -Draco doesn't have a clue what it really means to be a Death Eater. -I have absolute certainty that Draco will have a crisis of conscience as I have described here. Although, I'm not sure which way he will go. -Now that there is war, Draco will not be able to hide behind his priviledged life any more. Like it or not, Draco will have to get his hands dirty. He will have to soil them with hard reality. Let's just hope it's not blood on his hands. I agree with most of your points. And, again, I think you gave an excellent analysis of Draco and his situation. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From siskiou at earthlink.net Fri Jan 17 01:29:29 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 17:29:29 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Cursing Draco on the Train In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4920391458.20030116172929@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 49915 Hi, Thursday, January 16, 2003, 5:07:30 PM, Debbie wrote: > One thing I absolutely LOVE about this list, is something someone > brought up quite a while ago. Notice how everyone, but Harry, steps > on Draco & Co, to get off the train. It shows what kind of person he > really is. I never would've thought about it in that much detail. No, actually, I didn't notice it. In my version it says the following: "Thought we'd see what those three were up to," said Fred matter-of-factly, stepping onto Goyle and into the compartment. He had his wand out, and so did George, who was careful to tread on Malfoy as he followed Fred inside. and then: Ron, Harry, and George kicked, rolled, and pushed the unconscious Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle - each of whom looked distinctly the worse for the jumble of jinxes with which they had been hit - out into the corridor, then came back into the compartment and rolled the door shut. A little later: Ron and Hermione struggled out past Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle, carrying their trunks. Harry, however, stayed put. And after giving Fred and George the money: He left the compartment before they could say another word, stepping over Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle, who were still lying on the floor, covered in hex marks. So, the only ones making it a point to step on somebody are Fred and George. And Harry doesn't mind helping to kick and push the unconscious Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle out of the compartment. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Fri Jan 17 01:40:23 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 01:40:23 -0000 Subject: "[Five] Years": Canon precedence; flowerbed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49916 chthonia9 wrote: > So no FLINT (what exactly is a flint, anyhow?), just DD rounding time > to the nearest year: "five years ago" means roughly "when you re- > entered the wizarding world." > And 'everything' will be revealed (or not) at the *end* of OOP. > Yes, I agree it only counts as a Flint if Dumbledore turns out to be referring to his conversation at the *end* of PS where he specifically refuses to answer Harry's question about why Voldemort came after him. My thinking was that because Dumbledore is showing regret he is referring to a specific missed opportunity, not just saying "I could have told you this anytime in the last five years David From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Fri Jan 17 01:53:19 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 01:53:19 -0000 Subject: Book length (another ex-OT thread) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49918 On OT we have had an absorbing discussion about the length of OOP and whether it is possible to predict accurately the length of the remaining two books. (Inaccurate prediction is easy.) See OT post 13373 et seq. I maintain that can only be done with any confidence if we have some sort of rationale for why the existing books are as long as they are. So, a canon question: why have the books so far increased steadily in length? Given that most other series either have fairly consistent length (e.g. Narnia), or seem to fluctuate more or less randomly (e.g. Discworld), what is going on? Is there an internal dynamic to the story that is affecting the number of words needed to tell it? It would seem plausible that the fact that the HP series was conceived as an organic whole has something to do with it, as this is not true for the above series. David, who forgot to change the subject on his last after deciding his latest flowerbed theory was no bed of roses OT-Chatter is at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/messages From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Fri Jan 17 01:54:26 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 01:54:26 -0000 Subject: Nineteen Ninety-Five (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49919 Nineteen Ninety-Five To the tune of Dolly Parton's Nine to Five Dedicated to Mariner, inspired by her joyous "It's A Book" (#49866) Hear the original at: http://cdzlimited.com/country/partondolly.html Hear a MIDI at: http://home.worldonline.dk/steenmp/midi.html (THE SCENE: Darkness. A single spotlight discovers HARRY) HARRY Lie in a rose bed Then I'm flyin' off to Hogwarts With more than two hundred thousand words Of Ron and Snape, and Vern on Privet Drive (A second spotlight discovers VOLDEMORT) VOLDEMORT I've got the power See the blood start runnin' (A third spotlight discovers DUMBLEDORE) DUMBLEDORE I'll tell you secrets You will find stunnin' (The three spotlights converge) HARRY, VOLDEMORT & DUMBLEDORE Set those time-turners to Nineteen Ninety-Five! (Lights up to reveal Hogwarts Castle on a glorious September day, and, standing before it, the entire cast of characters for OoP) ALL: Nineteen Ninety-Five And our whole team's back in action JKR has honed The text to her satisfaction You will be enthralled For the next eight hundred pages Magic we'll provide you No matter what your age is THE DURSLEYS Nineteen Ninety-Five, more specifically the summer We will do our best to make sure that it's a bummer RON, FRED & GEORGE Then it's off to school For another year of crisis DRACO, CRABBE & GOYLE We can guarantee that we won't be making nices Mmmmm... HARRY You're gonna learn All about my mother GINNY See even more Of my older brothers McGONAGALL & FLITWICK You'll read things that will take your breath away PERCY Will a Prefect Gain great power within? HERMIONE Folks on Theory Bay, Will your ship come in? BINNS & HOUSE GHOSTS With the depth and the scope Of the Victorian Thackeray PETTIGREW Nineteen Ninety-Five Will I find its silver lining? SNAPE Will I stay true-blue Or with DEs be aligning? TRELAWNEY Will I come up with an accurate third prediction? ALL Will we make it to the Times' list of fiction? BLACK & LUPIN Nineteen Ninety-Five What a splendid panorama LUCIUS & NARCISSA It will be released Once they've proofread all her grammar DOBBY You'll be up all night For this battle of the Titans WINKY Drink a butterbeer As you savor Rowling's writin's FUDGE & CHROUS OF DEMENTORS Nineteen Ninety-Five It's eleven years past Orwell HAGRID & MADAME MAXIME Can the Wizard World Be saved from the Dark Lord's sheer hell? ALL `Course, we won't know that Till we finally see Book Seven But for right now Phoenix Is our closest glimpse of heaven . Nineteen Ninety-Five .. (fade-out) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From flamingstarchows at att.net Thu Jan 16 23:42:42 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 17:42:42 -0600 Subject: more speculation-Harry heir to Griffindor References: Message-ID: <007201c2bdb8$f71250c0$631d570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 49920 ----- Original Message ----- From: Debbie McLain I think Voldy killed all the Potters over time, and I mean ALL - at least the ones still left over from V's ancestor's not killing them. After all, they are the heirs to Gryffindor, which means they are the "official" fighters of evil. Okay, okay... it's all theory, but I'm pretty much convinced I will be proven correct in OoP. Harry is the last one, the one the entire WW is counting on to save them. That's what DD has to tell him (besides the other messy stuff about his parents, of course). Hmmm... starting to sound like "The Matrix"... *** Me: And here I thought I had an original idea . At the end of CoS Dumbledore said "Only a *true* Gryffindor could have pulled that out of the hat, Harry" when he handed him Godric Gryffindor's sword. Add to that the fact that Gryffindor pulled the Sorting Hat off of his own head, (GoF Sorting Hat Song) and it was the hat that gave Harry the sword. It would not surprise me in the least if Harry is not the last remaining descendent of Godric Gryffindor. It also seems logical that at some point (after Dumbledore is gone) he will end up with Fawkes. I assume there has also been speculation that Fawkes once belonged to GG. ~Cathy~ new and rambling away and wondering if I should preorder OoP, or go the the bookstore at midnight on the 21st...decisions, decisions [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kristen at sanderson-web.com Fri Jan 17 02:08:31 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (gkjpo ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 02:08:31 -0000 Subject: Can Real Wizards Apologize? and more speculation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49921 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dicentra63 " wrote: > It's more HPfGU canon than JKR canon. Nowhere in the novels is the > statement made that "real wizards don't apologize." But in message > 36556, you'll see how the phrase came into existence. > > --Dicentra Thank you for the wonderful reference - LOL. That post is truely one for the ages. I have a question though. If real wizards don't apologize, then who does JKR's original book 5 teaser refer to? To refresh your memories: "thirty-eight chapters... might change... longest volume... Ron... broom... sacked... house- elf... new... teacher... dies... sorry" Certainly, it cannot be the Dursley's who are sorry (although there are (paraphrasing) things coming with them that we don't expect). If it's not them, than it must be a wizard. I suppose it could be DD when he talks to Harry. Also, to add some speculation, if these teaser words are in book order, maybe Harry is laying in the flowerbed after he had a vision of Ron riding a broomstick and being attacked. After that, his scar hurt so badly, he fell backwards - into the flower bed. :) Kristen - Having fun trying to string together all the clues instead of being patient. From jmeec316 at aol.com Fri Jan 17 02:20:26 2003 From: jmeec316 at aol.com (Jaimee ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 02:20:26 -0000 Subject: Arabella Figg and cabbage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49922 Hello hello!! This is my first time replying to the message board, so let me know if I'm breaking any major rules or anything... > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "camdenandmo > " wrote: > > > 1) Sirus visiting Mrs. Figg as well as seeing Harry. How did > Sirus know where > > Harry was? He has apparently been out of the loop only picking up > on what > > he gathered from Azkaban discussions and read in "The Daily > Prophet." How > > hidden is Harry's summer location? > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "shinesse " wrote: > To me I think it would be pretty easy to know where Harry is, I mean > in the beginning of SS Harry recalls lots of "unusal" people looking > at him like they know him. They might not know exactly but it seems > they at least know the area... > > > ...People tend to talk in my experience. I mean Harry is "the boy that > lived". Sirus could have overheard a converstation and figured out > from there where Harry lived. > > dehavensangel > *doing the happy dance while waiting for June 21st.* OK. Here's what I think...(and I don't know if this has been mentioned before cause it's hard to get caught up on all the messages ever written on here!!) PoA: In the chapter where Harry is under the table listening to the teachers tell the tale of Black's betrayal, Hagrid says plain as day, "An' then he [Black] says, 'Give Harry ter me, I'm his godfather, I'll look after him--' Ha! But I'd had me orders from DD, an' I told Black no, DD said Harry was ter go ter his aunt an' uncle's..." Now...we know that the Dursley's did in fact live in #4 at the time of Lily's and James'death, because that is where DD and the others leave him on the doorstep. And, since Sirius was James' best friend, we could speculate that Sirius might know where the Dursley's live or at least knows their names (maybe even met them at the wedding?? Heehee!) So if Hagrid did, in fact, tell Sirius that DD wanted Hagrid to take Harry to his Aunt and Uncle's, then this could certainly make Sirius' search for Harry a little easier when he escaped from Azkaban!! Just a thought, and I have them often...so maybe you'll hear from me again soon!! --Jaimee (who is simply about to burst knowing she has to wait a few more months to read OoP!!) From summer2999 at aol.com Fri Jan 17 02:14:05 2003 From: summer2999 at aol.com (Carolyn ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 02:14:05 -0000 Subject: On dates--maybe JK wasn't paying attention? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49923 Every time I've ever seen discussions about dates in the Harry Potter world, or things not working out, the same thought has always occured to me... what if JK just wasn't planning it out? I suppose this seems simple, but think about it. Writing is supposed to be an enjoyable experience, and hopefully the writing of the Harry Potter books is for JKR. Having to write with a whole bunch of calendars nearby would be quite annoying, and having to constantly figure out what happens at what date. I don't think that's how the books are supposed to be read. Though the presence of the cake at Sir Nicholas' deathday party with a date on it goes against this theory, as it wasn't really necessary to put that in. Whooo knows? I am ready for this theory to be proven wrong, that's fine. Just my idea... Also, about the whole flowerbed thing, have people noticed that it's late in the day? That is specified. So a bunch of stuff probably already happened that day. I bet the boy is Harry though... that seems like a predictable way for JKR to open the book. One more thing... how funny would it be if all of the predictions you guys made were real? I don't think that will happen, but it would be quite amusing. Peace, Carolyn From selah_1977 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 02:34:43 2003 From: selah_1977 at yahoo.com (Ebony ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 02:34:43 -0000 Subject: Nineteen Ninety-Five (filk) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49924 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Caius Marcius " wrote: > Nineteen Ninety-Five Caius-- As a 1995 high school graduate, and one who loves to speculate on time in the wizarding world (refer to my Lexicon essays) thanks so much for this! On another note, I am wondering what Flints we'll notice in the text this time, as I remember that year and the worldwide news very clearly. What will we do if Harry gets up out of the flowerbed and sees Dudley on the internet? (Of course, there were no Yahoo! groups then...) I'll be looking forward to seeing what role, if any, contemporary events in the Muggle world play in this next book. --Ebony From selah_1977 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 03:08:12 2003 From: selah_1977 at yahoo.com (Ebony ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 03:08:12 -0000 Subject: On dates--maybe JK wasn't paying attention? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49925 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carolyn " wrote: > Every time I've ever seen discussions about dates in the Harry > Potter world, or things not working out, the same thought has always > occured to me... what if JK just wasn't planning it out? We've mentioned here before that JKR very likely just isn't a "maths person". I think that she indeed meticulously planned things out, but without a real sense of the numbers the same way a numerically- inclined person might have, there are inconsistencies with her dates. (Consider the Hermione Age Debate, Marcus Flint Redux, etc.) > I suppose this seems simple, but think about it. Writing is > supposed to be an enjoyable experience, and hopefully the writing of > the Harry Potter books is for JKR. Having to write with a whole > bunch of calendars nearby would be quite annoying, and having to > constantly figure out what happens at what date. Perhaps she did have a timeline, but as a writer myself, I know you can't put absolutely everything on one of those--the timeline I made up for my first fic ran to 25 pages. I think she's likely got major events mapped out, and all of Harry's significant "milestones" as well as those for the major characters, but The Life and Times of Marcus Flint? Nah. > Also, about the whole flowerbed thing, have people noticed that it's > late in the day? That is specified. So a bunch of stuff probably > already happened that day. I bet the boy is Harry though... that > seems like a predictable way for JKR to open the book. I don't know why, but I think it's Harry too. Perhaps it's his birthday? Important things happen on July 31 every year, so... > One more thing... how funny would it be if all of the predictions > you guys made were real? I don't think that will happen, but it > would be quite amusing. Well, actually, I do think it's going to be quite difficult for JKR to throw a curve ball for those of us who dabble in fanon as well as canon discussion. Between the thoughtful discussions here and being a fanfic reader/writer for years, every morsel of books 1-4 have been examined and picked over, and just about every outcome we as a fandom could have ever thought of has been aired. What some of my friends who used to post more here think is that reading OotP will ring certain fanon bells. But to me, a writer's style is so much more than her ability to plot or to characterize or to handle themes. It's all about their ability to blend all of these elements effectively. No fan writer comes close to JKR to me... no essayist can make things make sense in her universe the way that she can... and so even after all this time reading fic and rereading canon, writing fic, planning, after all is said and done I cannot wait to have something new to say. Because when all is said and done, it's all about her. --Ebony AKA AngieJ From pennylin at swbell.net Fri Jan 17 03:15:58 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 21:15:58 -0600 Subject: Editing of HP Books Message-ID: <025901c2bdd6$c1517fb0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 49926 Hi all -- At last, one of those burning questions can be answered! In a conversation with an editor at Scholastic today (yes, we're talking to them about coming to Nimbus - 2003), she mentioned that there's seems to be some confusion in the fandom about the editing process for the HP books. Starting with GoF, Arthur Levine and his team at Scholastic have worked in collaboration with the editing team at Bloomsbury. So, it's no longer the situation that Scholastic creates a completely different version of the books, working independently from the Bloomsbury editors. Both publishing houses are working together, which would certainly explain my sense that there were few (if any) differences between my US and UK versions of GoF. Those of us on the Nimbus - 2003 planning team are certainly hopeful that Scholastic will be able to send someone to Orlando, so that we can gain even further insight into the overall process! Penny From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 03:39:53 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 19:39:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Arabella Figg & cabbage In-Reply-To: <20030116181028.19733.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030117033953.81797.qmail@web40508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49927 People have been speculating on whether or not Arabella Figg was using Polyjuice poition to look like an old lady, and if she's really a lovely woman in her thirties (around Snape/Sirius/Lupin's age ). I'm convinced that she isn't using Polyjuice Potion for the simple reason that there is the Aging Potion which is obviously much more convenient and not as dangerous, and nobody would recognize her anyway if she were an old lady. What I'm more interested in is this - are we *sure* she's old - in the sense, does she really look old? The only time it's mentioned that she is an old lady is in the beginning of PS, and Harry is only 10 then. At that age children usually can't correctly estimate older people's ages (actually, I don't remember thinking that my parents or my aunts and uncles were ancient when I was 10, but judging from my experience with my younger cousins right now, they call anyone who looks about the same age as their parents as very old). What I'm not sure about is if that particular section of the book is entirely Harry's POV. If it is, then Arabella Figg could be *any* age. If not and JKR is giving us a correct picture, there is still the option of that Aging Potion. I would be glad if she were to turn out young because there is an awful lack of available (and unavailable) ladies for our older threesome of bachelors, but I'm far from being sure that it's going to happen. Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pennylin at swbell.net Fri Jan 17 03:53:29 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 21:53:29 -0600 Subject: SHIP: JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging References: <8147842929.20030114135840@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <027701c2bddb$ff556830$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 49928 Hi all -- I know we've sort of changed course what with the release news, but I realized I do have a few more things to say on this topic. Jim wrote: > As Hermione and Ron become more an item, Ron may become > jealous > of all the time Hermione spends with Harry. This could become a source of tension between Ron and Hermione, overlaid by Ron feeling > he isn't of equal footing in the Trio. Susanne responded: <<<>>>>>>> Yes, but Hermione hasn't been Ron's girlfriend before. If Ron and Hermione were to develop a dating relationship, I suspect Ron's jealous nature might well come into play. And, I think Jim's right: Hermione is an integral part of Harry's success, and IMHO, Ron *is* falling behind the other two. As one commentator in the Ivory Tower book I read recently said, "Ron is wrong so often that you can almost be certain that whatever Ron says, the opposite is true" (that's a rough paraphrase from memory). As I've said before, I think Ron is so anxious to "keep up" with Harry's talents, etc. and Hermione's intellect, that he grasps at straws. Can that all change? Absolutely. But, as of the end of GoF, I would say that Ron is not on equal footing within the Trio. Jim: > Harry has noticed Hermione for the first time. When I read the Yule Ball passage in Chapter 23 I was surprised I hadn't been more > impressed. There were sparks there. This is seen through Harry's > eyes, and JKR tells us it's something he never noticed before, and I > say he won't forget it. Susanne: <<<>>>>>>>>> Well, he's only 14, so chances are good he has indeed forgotten it. But, the foundation is there for something to develop later, which is Jim's point I think. > Susanne, in message 48723:"Emotionally, Hermione has a lot to learn. > She doesn't always have a good concept about other people's > feelings and how to make them feel better, instead of worse." > Jim: That was true once but history now, IMO. No one else has grown more in this series than Hermione has, not even Harry. The know-it-all > little busybody is gone, driven out by a mission, leaving a rapidly > maturing young woman with compassion and moral courage (physical > bravery under construction). Susanne again: <<>>>>>>> Ah, and those bickering moments and the out-and-out *fights* that Ron and Hermione have? Clicking emotionally, are they? Well, yeah, I guess so, since Ron has made Hermione cry at least twice that I can recall. Yes, Harry gets impatient with Hermione sometimes, when she is only trying to help. But, Ron is far more impatient with Hermione than Harry is, IMO. But, more importantly, I see lots of impatience with Ron from Hermione. How many times does she utter "Oh, Ron!" or tut-tut about something he offers up as a possible factor or solution. She's very dismissive of him really. Yet another reason why I think R/H would be an incredibly bad match-up. She's not shown much interest so far in pumping up his self-esteem (low already) and he isn't actually going to shine or come into his own if he's constantly being overshadowed by both his best friend the Hero and his girlfriend the Over-Achiever. I said, earlier this week (I think): >If she were talking about Harry and Ron equally, why would Krum draw the >inference that she had romantic interest in only one of them? He'd either be equally >threatened, or more likely, draw the logical conclusion that she was best friends with >two boys from her class. Torsten: <<<>> Actually I didn't forget that article, and neither did Harry. When Krum first brings up the topic of what there might be between Harry and Hermione, Harry immediately jumps in with: "It's just that Skeeter woman making things up." Krum, however, responds with "Hermione talks about you very often." The inference I would draw from that is that Krum's suspicions were really more based on his perception that Hermione talks about Harry "very often," rather than whether he did or did not read the Skeeter article. He doesn't say whether he did or didn't read it ...... but I've actually always assumed that he was having this conversation with Harry based on Hermione's behavior, rather than Skeeter. Various people mentioned that Hermione might also be talking about Ron equally when she's with Krum, but we just wouldn't know about that since we only have Harry's POV and it would be odd for Harry to overhear/witness a similar conversation between Krum and Ron. This is possible. But, my perception is that Krum barely knows who Ron is. I also think that if Hermione were talking equally about Harry and Ron around Krum, he'd be reasonably unlikely to jump to the conclusion that she was romantically involved with either one of them. Does he think she has feelings for *both* of them, and if not, how did he settle on Harry as his rival? Pippin asked: <<<>>>>>>>> Sure! Of course, the opposite is equally plausible. Maybe she has a *crush* on Ron but has conscious or unconscious deeper feelings for Harry! Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From debmclain at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 04:10:44 2003 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie McLain ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 04:10:44 -0000 Subject: Nineteen Ninety-Five (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49929 "Ebony " wrote: > As a 1995 high school graduate, and one who loves to speculate on > time in the wizarding world (refer to my Lexicon essays) thanks so > much for this! > On another note, I am wondering what Flints we'll notice in the text > this time, as I remember that year and the worldwide news very > clearly. What will we do if Harry gets up out of the flowerbed and > sees Dudley on the internet? (Of course, there were no Yahoo! groups > then...) > > I'll be looking forward to seeing what role, if any, contemporary > events in the Muggle world play in this next book. Ebony: JK said that the wizarding world does not need the internet because of..... well, apparently, she's going to tell us in book 5. I did read that in one of her intervews. -Debbie From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 04:11:06 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 20:11:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Cursing Draco on the Train In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030117041106.13948.qmail@web40511.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49930 Oryomai SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: > I've been thinking about that (how Harry & Co. cursed Draco and his > coterie)....why didn't they get in trouble? I can't imagine that the Malfoys > didn't complain about this. Draco would've said something to his father, at > the very least "That filthy little Mudblood!" or something..... Will Ron, > Harry, Hermione, Fred, and George get in trouble for that? I can't imagine > that Hogwarts would want to condone that type of thing.... Debbie said that Lucius Malfoy would probably yell at Draco for being so slow. Me: Oh, I agree with Debbie completely. Except maybe he wouldn't yell, but reproach him in that Malfoy drawl so that it sounds even worse than any kind of yelling. But I wouldn't say that the official consequences of Harry and Co DADA practice on Hogwarts Express will be too high. At Hogwarts everybody constantly got into fights and received 'battle scars' that were fixed, sometimes instantly, sometimes not, by Mme Pomfrey. Remember those two fifth- of sixth-years that had leeks sprouting out their years? I don't think they'd gotten drastic punishments for that - maybe lost some points and got a detention. It's the *wizarding* world - they're dealing with magic, there are bound to be incidents like that. OTOH, I'm sure somebody out there (FIE!) is counting up points for all of Harry's... um... deeds, we shall call them. Maybe the points he gets for this little romp will be just what the buffer needs to overflow. BTW, Debbie, thank you for your kind offer, I really appreciate it, but I think that the mailing process will take so much time that I'll be back in America by the time the book arrives. Oh well... I'll have something to really look forward too. Regards, Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Fri Jan 17 03:18:30 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 19:18:30 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] How does book five *end* References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49931 Pickle Jimmy said: what if the other line we know is how it ends? Me: Doesn't work. If Harry is lying down in a flowerbed, it wouldn't make sense for Dumbledore to tell Harry to sit down, would it? -DM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Fri Jan 17 03:21:51 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 19:21:51 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "[Five] Years": Canon precedence; flowerbed References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49932 chthonia9 wrote: what exactly is a flint, anyhow Me: A Flint is an error or contradiction in canon. The term derives from pg 185 of SS in the paperback version. We're told Marcus Flint is the Slytherin Captain in his sixth year. In the Harry's third year, the Prisoner of Azkaban, the Quidditch Final chapter, page 306, fourth line, Wood and Flint shake hands. This would be Flint's eighth year. You are only supposed to go to Hogwarts for seven! An arguable error indeed, J.K. Rowling has since clarified that Flint has held back a year, which makes sense considering Flint's character. Nonetheless, the name sticks. -DM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From flamingstarchows at att.net Fri Jan 17 04:07:07 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 22:07:07 -0600 Subject: SHIP: JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging References: <8147842929.20030114135840@earthlink.net> <027701c2bddb$ff556830$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: <004401c2bddd$e7aea640$052a4a0c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 49933 ----- Original Message ----- From: Penny Linsenmayer Ah, and those bickering moments and the out-and-out *fights* that Ron and Hermione have? Clicking emotionally, are they? Well, yeah, I guess so, since Ron has made Hermione cry at least twice that I can recall. Yes, Harry gets impatient with Hermione sometimes, when she is only trying to help. But, Ron is far more impatient with Hermione than Harry is, IMO. But, more importantly, I see lots of impatience with Ron from Hermione. How many times does she utter "Oh, Ron!" or tut-tut about something he offers up as a possible factor or solution. She's very dismissive of him really. Yet another reason why I think R/H would be an incredibly bad match-up. She's not shown much interest so far in pumping up his self-esteem (low already) and he isn't actually going to shine or come into his own if he's constantly being overshadowed by both his best friend the Hero and his girlfriend the Over-Achiever. *** Me: In my experience with actual children this age (I taught 5th grade through 12th for 12 years) I found that the students who fought and bickered the most at age 11 up through even 14 or 15 were the ones that ended up together by the end of high school. I even had a trio of two boys and a girl (1 -3 chairs in my trumpet section). The two who bickered (and hurt) each other the most in jr. high ended up together in high school. In other words, you might simply consider all of that fussing and fighting going on between Ron and Hermione as "foreplay". Opposites often do attract, don't they? ~Cathy~ From dehavensangel at hotmail.com Fri Jan 17 02:44:46 2003 From: dehavensangel at hotmail.com (shinesse ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 02:44:46 -0000 Subject: On dates--maybe JK wasn't paying attention? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49934 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carolyn " wrote: >>>> Every time I've ever seen discussions about dates in the Harry Potter world, or things not working out, the same thought has always occured to me... what if JK just wasn't planning it out? I suppose this seems simple, but think about it. Writing is supposed to be an enjoyable experience, and hopefully the writing of the Harry Potter books is for JKR. Having to write with a whole bunch of calendars nearby would be quite annoying, and having to constantly figure out what happens at what date.<<<< Me: I write sometimes and yeah sometimes things just hit you and you go with the flow and write your little heart out. Though I've never tried getting any of my writing published isn't it the job of the editor to check all of that stuff out. That's why it takes so long for it to come out from the time she hands in her work. Though just throwing it out there. Maybe the dates just aren't supposed to add up. Yeah it sounds a little crazy, but you never know. JKR has surprised us before. "Shinesse" From Sunnylove0 at aol.com Fri Jan 17 05:24:24 2003 From: Sunnylove0 at aol.com (Sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 00:24:24 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] McGonagall was:Hagrid/the Chamber/the Monster Message-ID: <17b.149559be.2b58ed88@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49935 In a message dated 1/16/2003 4:00:09 PM Mountain Standard Time, sgarfio at yahoo.com writes: > I think they all assumed that it was Aragog instead of the Slytherin monster > - > all except Dumbledore, of course, and maybe McGonagall. I get this > impression > from McGonagall's explanation of the "legend", in which she says that the > legend is assumed to be false, but she doesn't ever say that *she* thinks > it's > false. She says that the castle has been searched many times and nothing > has > been found, which is a nice way of telling ickle children not to worry, the > world is fine and dandy, when the adults know darn well that isn't true. Movie contamination alert! In the actual book, it is Professor Binns who talks about the Chamber of Secrets. But a strange question....when was Minerva McGonagall at Hogwarts? Was she there when the Chamber was opened? Did she know Tom Riddle...um...well? The Queen of Serpents who thinks that movie contamination is quite understandable...Christian Coulson is hot! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From enchanted at pacbell.net Fri Jan 17 05:24:43 2003 From: enchanted at pacbell.net (Enchanted) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 21:24:43 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How does book five *end* Message-ID: <028601c2bde8$bf330750$3b0afea9@family> No: HPFGUIDX 49936 Pickle Jimmy said: > what if the other line we know is how it ends? Danger Mouse: > Doesn't work. If Harry is lying down in a flowerbed, it wouldn't make sense for > Dumbledore to tell Harry to sit down, would it? I think the first lines of the book are about the boy laying in the flowerbed and at the very end of the book is when Dumbledore tells him to sit down. I think that's what pickle jimmy was trying to say. Not that both of these things run together, but that one is at the begining of the book and one is at the end of the book. -Enchanted From srsiriusblack at aol.com Fri Jan 17 05:35:44 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 00:35:44 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] How does book five *end* Message-ID: <12d.2054a456.2b58f030@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49937 In a message dated 17/01/2003 00:09:13 Eastern Standard Time, dangermousehq at hotmail.com writes: > Me: > Doesn't work. If Harry is lying down in a flowerbed, it wouldn't make sense > for Dumbledore to tell Harry to sit down, would it? > > -DM > No. No. No. the flower bed quote and the Dumbledore quote are in two separate places in book five. Please check back to yesterdays original post which has the web site link... The two quotes are from different places in the book.... And, Pickle Jimmy, if your theory turns out to fact, I will just die! LOL -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 05:41:23 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 05:41:23 -0000 Subject: Cursing Draco on the Train In-Reply-To: <4920391458.20030116172929@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49938 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > > Hi, > > Thursday, January 16, 2003, 5:07:30 PM, Debbie wrote: > > > One thing I absolutely LOVE about this list, is something someone > > brought up quite a while ago. Notice how everyone, but Harry, steps > > on Draco & Co, to get off the train. It shows what kind of person he > > really is. I never would've thought about it in that much detail. > > No, actually, I didn't notice it. > > In my version it says the following: > Ron, Harry, and George kicked, rolled, and pushed the unconscious > Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle - each of whom looked distinctly the > worse for the jumble of jinxes with which they had been hit - out > into the corridor, then came back into the compartment and rolled > the door shut. > And Harry doesn't mind helping to kick and push the > unconscious Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle out of the compartment. > The first time I stopped to work that sentence out, I took it to mean that Ron kicked Malfoy, Harry rolled Crabbe, and George pushed Goyle. I've even written sentences that way . If you think about it, it's even consistent with their characters. Ron was thought by Harry to be kicking Lockhart after the cave-in on the way to the Chamber of Secrets. George is supposed to be the "good twin". And, it's true that Harry *doesn't* step on anyone. Even in the dueling club, when Snape paired up Harry and Malfoy, you see it. Harry had gotten Malfoy rolling on the floor with "rictusempra", and then refrained from jinxing him again since he felt it would not be fair (which turned out to be a mistake since Malfoy managed to hit him with the "tarentella" jinx). It's true that Harry will jinx someone in the heat of a bad moment, but he's just not very vindictive. Annemehr who's almost willing to go for DRACO'S TRAGEDY, but will hold out for now for the hope of some redemption... From snorth at ucla.edu Fri Jan 17 06:09:31 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 22:09:31 -0800 Subject: How does book five *end* References: Message-ID: <011701c2bdef$054f9450$0100a8c0@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 49940 Pickle Jimmy: > My point was this - What if the 'tell all' quote is at the opposite > end of the book from the 'flowerbed' quote - meaning that the 'tell > all' quote is how the book ends... with Dumbledore telling Harry that > he is about to reveal all, and then we have to wait till book 6 to > find out what 'all' is. Me: JKR wouldn't do that to us, would she? I'm hoping she wouldn't, but common sense tells us that the publisher wouldn't release the last lines of a book 6 months before the release. I know some people like to read the last page first, but those people are few and far between, right? -Scott Who hopes that no matter where those lines fall in Book 5, Book 6 won't be too far behind. From slomudskipper at hotmail.com Fri Jan 17 06:28:02 2003 From: slomudskipper at hotmail.com (slomudskipper ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 06:28:02 -0000 Subject: A small rant about stereotyping in the WW and Hogwarts Was: Evil Hufflepuffs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49941 Firekat482 wrote: "...strange that Dumbledore seems to be content to allow these stereotypes to foster. Shouldn't he - as the school's headmaster - want to work at bringing the students together?...(snip)...1,000 years is a long time for generations of students to hold the same grudges against one another that the four founders had against each other." Dumbledore is a very wise and powerful wizard but one person can only do so much. I think, if nothing else, he's setting a fine example for the students; it seems that (correct me if I'm wrong) he judges people on an individual basis, not by stereotype or popular opinion. And as for bringing the students together, when he was explaining the triwizard championship in GoF, didn't he encourage everyone to rally behind the school champion after they were chosen, regardless of house? As for 1,000 year old grudges, I don't think that's odd at all, especially when differences in beliefs are so fundamental to our outlook on the world. I'm not even sure grudge is the right word; muggle vs pureblood aside, people with "gryffindor" personalities will probably almost all of the time get along better with "hufflepuff" type people than they do with "slytherin" mentalities, regardless of current political climate, or upbringing. Mudskipper, who's wishing her Wildlife Biology Methods class were taught by Hagrid From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Fri Jan 17 06:50:43 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42 ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 06:50:43 -0000 Subject: Sorry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49942 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gkjpo " wrote: > I have a question though. If real wizards don't apologize, then who > does JKR's original book 5 teaser refer to? > > Certainly, it cannot be the Dursley's who are sorry (although there > are (paraphrasing) things coming with them that we don't expect). If > it's not them, than it must be a wizard. I suppose it could be DD > when he talks to Harry. Well, I decided to approach it statistically, out of curiosity, and searched the first four books for the word "sorry". So far, the word sorry has actually been spoken in the books 100 times (Only counting in actual dialogue), and 34 of those times it was spoken by Harry, making him by far the most likely to be the one quoted. Hermione comes second, with 7 times. And Ron & Hagrid tie for third with 6 each. Interestingly, Draco comes in for 4th place, having said sorry 4 times, and not meant it once... --Arcum From judy at judyshapiro.com Fri Jan 17 07:16:26 2003 From: judy at judyshapiro.com (Judy ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 07:16:26 -0000 Subject: 1000 years of Slytherin vs. Gryffindor? (was: A small rant...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49944 (My previous attempt got posted before it was completed; it's been deleted from webview. Sorry, all!) Firekat482 wrote, in regards to the apparently long-standing enmity between Slytherins and Gryffindors: > 1,000 years is a long time for generations > of students to hold the same > grudges against one another that > the four founders had against each > other." I'm not convinced that the grudge has been "active" for the full 1000 years. In other words, maybe Salazaar Slytherin had a conflict with Godric Gryffindor, but things settled down after Salazaar left Hogwarts. Perhaps the two houses more-or-less got along for the next millennium or so, until the "Heir of Slytherin" (Voldemort) was born, and started deliberately stirring up the old rivalry. This would have a number of real-life parallels. For example, during the recent Balkans war, people would often claim that the conflict between Serbs and Bosnians could be traced back hundreds of years. But in reality, the two groups had been getting along fine just a decade or so previously, until nationalist leaders came along, and intentionally revived the old conflicts. Of course, another possibility is that the Slytherins *have* been a long-standing source of problems at Hogwarts, long before Tom Riddle came along, but nothing can be done about it because Slytherin House has powerful supporters. Perhaps the Malfoys had a seat on the Hogwart's Board of Governors for generations. This also has real-life parallels, unfortunately. I remember serious problems caused by some of the fraternities when I was in college, but they were supported by rich alumni who refused to let them be disciplined. The one adminstrator who tried got fired. Certainly, in CoS, we see that sort of thing happening; Lucius tried very hard to tie Dumbledore's hands. -- JudySerenity, who was both frightened and amused by Bboy's theory that Book 6 would end just as Dumbledore was about to tell all From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 07:33:45 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 07:33:45 -0000 Subject: How does book five *end* In-Reply-To: <011701c2bdef$054f9450$0100a8c0@xyrael> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49945 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Scott Northrup" wrote: > ,,edited,,, > Me: > > JKR wouldn't do that to us, would she? > > I'm hoping she wouldn't, but common sense tells us that the publisher > wouldn't release the last lines of a book 6 months before the release. > ..eidted.. > -Scott bboy_mn: I don't think Dumbledore lowering his hands and asking Harry to sit down so he can tell him everything is THE last line in the book. I think the real implication is that it occurs near the end of the book. Typical book ends with Harry in the hospital (or Dumbledore's office), and he and Dumbledore having a heart to heart. Then we return to our regularly scheduled program and they wrap up the school year get on the train and go home. The end of the book is alway Harry rejoining the Dursleys. So NEAR but not AT the end of the book. This can only be one of two things. It is either the setup for the theme of this story, or it is the 'heavy load' Harry has to carry with him through the summer; something for him to think about over the summer. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 08:34:00 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:34:00 -0000 Subject: 1000 years of Slytherin vs. Gryffindor? (was: A small rant...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49946 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Judy " wrote: > > > Firekat482 wrote, in regards to the apparently > > long-standing enmity between Slytherins and Gryffindors: > > 1,000 years is a long time for generations of students to hold > > the same grudges against one another that the four founders had > > against each other." > > I'm not convinced that the grudge has been "active" for the full 1000 > years. ...edited.. > > Of course, another possibility is that the Slytherins *have* been a > long-standing source of problems at Hogwarts, ...edited... > > -- JudySerenity, who was both frightened and amused by Bboy's theory > that Book 6 would end just as Dumbledore was about to tell all bboy_mn: I think all we are seeing is the typical house rivalry that is fostered by all house systems like this. I think (can someone confirm) that in any English school that uses a house system, these types of rivalries occur. I see similar things in the older fraternaty system. Everyone who is 'like you' is great, and every one else is scum. I think Slytherin wins a lot (House Cup & Quidditch) because the have a win at any cost to prove your superiority attitude, and Gryffindors win a lot not because they are trying to take glory FOR themselves, but because they are brave enough to challenge Slyterin and take glory AWAY FROM them. Ravenclay is too busy thinking, and can't become obcesses with petty distraction like Quidditch. Although, like any school kids their Quidditch team works hard and is heavily supported by the house. Same with Hufflepuff, they are busy concentrating on serious things like work, and can't allow themselve to be obsessive about points and Quidditch, but at the same time, they take it seriously and support their house. It isn't just Slytherin vs Gryffindor either, think of the hostility against pretty boy Diggory after they beat Gryffindor at Quidditch. Fred and George wouldn't even acknowledge Cedric when they met on Stoad Hill to portkey to the Quiditch World cup. So only age old rivalry is our house against theirs, and has nothing to do with the founders. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From cantor at vgernet.net Fri Jan 17 06:11:12 2003 From: cantor at vgernet.net (cantoramy ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 06:11:12 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging In-Reply-To: <027701c2bddb$ff556830$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49947 Just a point of information: In a BBC interview on December 28, 2001, JKR was asked about the fifth book. She replied that "Harry has already been interested in a "quidditch" team-mate in Harry Potter And The Goblet Of Fire, the fourth book in the series - but will now develop more of an interest in Hermione, one of his best friends." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/1726528.stm I still like Ron/Hermione better. cantoramy From enchanted at pacbell.net Fri Jan 17 06:25:11 2003 From: enchanted at pacbell.net (Enchanted) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 22:25:11 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How does book five *end* References: Message-ID: <02f401c2bdf1$321a0810$3b0afea9@family> No: HPFGUIDX 49948 pickle_jimmy wrote: "meaning that the 'tell all' quote is how the book ends... with Dumbledore telling Harry that he is about to reveal all, and then we have to wait till book 6 to find out what 'all' is. And I think I like my initial ramblings about the teenager in the flowerbed being Vernon Dursley - I'm sticking with that." I completely agree with you Pickle Jimmy, it would not make sense to reveal too much in this book when there are two more to come. It would be an intense cliffhanger if JKR ended the book in this fashion, which would also guarantee much gnashing of teeth and nail biting for fans who have waited so long for book 5 and would now have to wait yet again for book 6. UGH! the misery! Book 5 is still months away from being available and I'm already concerned with how long it will take for book 6 to be released lol! If the boy in the flowerbed is indeed Vernon Dursley chances are that the house on Privet dr. belonged to Harry's maternal grandparents at one time and he is in fact the owner of the house in which the Dursleys live, or part owner through inheritance, this could be why they were forced to take him in (?) Just a thought. Either that, or the boy is James Potter. - Enchanted [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dehavensangel at hotmail.com Fri Jan 17 06:53:40 2003 From: dehavensangel at hotmail.com (shinesse ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 06:53:40 -0000 Subject: How does book five *end* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49949 Pickle Jimmy said: >>>>>>My point was this - What if the 'tell all' quote is at the opposite end of the book from the 'flowerbed' quote - meaning that the 'tell all' quote is how the book ends... with Dumbledore telling Harry that he is about to reveal all, and then we have to wait till book 6 to find out what 'all' is.<<<<<<< Please don't let this be so. That would just be cruel. IMO I think its in the middle. DD is telling him all to prepare him for what lies ahead. You can't fight the good fight without knowing all the facts. dehavensangel (wishing that June 21st would hurry up and come so she can read the last page to make sure JKR wouldn't be that cruel to all of us and end the book with the 'tell all' quote.) From dehavensangel at hotmail.com Fri Jan 17 07:11:35 2003 From: dehavensangel at hotmail.com (shinesse ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 07:11:35 -0000 Subject: A small rant about stereotyping in the WW and Hogwarts Was: Evil Hufflepuffs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49950 Jean said: >>>>>IMHO, 1,000 years is a long time for generations of students to hold the same grudges against one another that the four founders had against each other.<<<<< Me: That is very true. 1,000 years is a long time to hold a grude. But IMO I don't think there really is much DD can do to change the matter. Also by this time its not really a grudge so much as it is house rivalry. Each house does work to get those points for the house cup every year. You stand by your house and do everything you can to win. "dehavensangel" From renitentraven at hotmail.com Fri Jan 17 08:51:04 2003 From: renitentraven at hotmail.com (Lisa Armstrong ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:51:04 -0000 Subject: redeemable Draco Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49951 I agree with the general feeling of these posts that Lucius Malfoy is probably more responsible for Draco's behaviour than any concious decision Draco's made. I really want to find out if Lucius Malfoy is an unregistered animagus, as I think he's using Draco's presence at the school to gain admittance and spy, and importantly keep Draco 'on the straight and narrow' whilst under that 'Muggle-loving Dumbledore'. I think he is the eagle owl delivering Draco's mail among other things. 'An eagle owl flew through the coil of smoke rising from Hagrid's cabin' GOF, pg 469. The next day Hermione began to get her 'fanmail'. 'He was riding on the back of an eagle owl' GOF, pg 500. Harry's dream that returns him to Voldemort. I think the beginning of a Lucius/Draco showdown will be when Draco realises even the lukewarm gesture of sweets/mail delivered from Dad, is just another D.E. career move on Dad's part. Lisa Book 5, yee-hah!!! (who apologises if somebody has already said this, this list is amazing to try and keep up with.) From gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 09:41:48 2003 From: gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com (gingersnape1966 ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:41:48 -0000 Subject: Hagrid/the Chamber/the Monster In-Reply-To: <20030116225919.93419.qmail@web21408.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49952 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sherry Garfio wrote: > bboy_mn wrote: > > Seeking people's opinion on whether the Staff at Hogwarts and the > > Ministry thought Aragog was the monster in the Chamber of Secrets, or > > it they thought that is was Hagrid and Aragog all along, and the this > > Chamber of Secrets business was, as they had suspected for decades, > > just a bunch of nonsense. to which Sherry replied (in part) > You would think, however, that those students would have talked after they were > restored ("No, it was a snake, not a spider"), unless their memories of the > attacks were erased by the petrification. Me: I did a quick reread of CoS ch 13, where Tom takes Harry in the diary and shows the "capture" of the "Slytheryn monster". Harry doesn't get a close look at it, only a vague description and then it "bowled him (Riddle) over as it scuttled away, tearing up the corridor and out of sight." My point being that Aragog was never actually caught, or even seen by anyone but Riddle and Hagrid. For all they (Dippet, MoM, etc.) knew, it was a snake of sorts Hagrid was raising. Riddle probably gave a vague description and Hagrid probably opened his mouth and stammered on about how it wasn't his friend and the MoM jumped to conclusions. I never realized what a horrible miscarriage of justice Hagrid's expulsion was! It was Riddle's word against his, with no proof to back it up at all! Riddle couldn't even prove Hagrid had kept an animal at all, except for the empty box, which a good lawyer could have argued was for Hagrid's Transfiguration notes, or slug collection or anything at all. In ch. 17, Riddle laughs about how it must have looked to Dippet, and then even he can't believe that Dippet et al believed him as they did. Now that I think about it, neither can I! Ginger, who is going to cool off before she starts writing her Congressman. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 10:22:42 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:22:42 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49953 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cantoramy " wrote: > Just a point of information: > > In a BBC interview on December 28, 2001, JKR was asked about the > fifth book. She replied that "Harry has already been interested in > a "quidditch" team-mate in Harry Potter And The Goblet Of Fire, the > fourth book in the series - but will now develop more of an interest > in Hermione, one of his best friends." > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/1726528.stm > > I still like Ron/Hermione better. > > cantoramy bboy_mn: One small problem, that particular statement is not in quotation marks like the rest of Rowing's direct quotes, so we can't be sure if this was a conclusion drawn by the interview, or if it was an actual direct statement from JKR. And the interview does not directly attibute the statement to her. Conclusion: We don't really know if that is the interview talking or JKR talking. Sorry. bboy_mn From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 17 11:22:32 2003 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82 ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 11:22:32 -0000 Subject: Hagrid/the Chamber/the Monster In-Reply-To: <20030116225919.93419.qmail@web21408.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49954 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sherry Garfio wrote: > > I think they all assumed that it was Aragog instead of the Slytherin monster - > all except Dumbledore, of course, and maybe McGonagall. I get this impression > from McGonagall's explanation of the "legend", in which she says that the > legend is assumed to be false, but she doesn't ever say that *she* thinks it's > false. She says that the castle has been searched many times and nothing has > been found, which is a nice way of telling ickle children not to worry, the > world is fine and dandy, when the adults know darn well that isn't true. Me: Sorry but McGonagall only explains the Chamber of Secrets to the students in the Movie IIRC It was Professor Binns that told/ explained the legend to the class in the actual book and IIRC he seemed to think the idea of there being a Chamber as quite rubbish as the castle had been searched by many Headmasters/ mistresses and hadn't been found and if there was one he thought that it would have already been fund. Onto Hagrid... I think that the then Headmaster Dippet just wanted to be able to point the finger at someone and who better than a half giant? I mean who would believe he was innocent? Hagrid was a convenient Scape Goat - made even more convenient by the fact the killings stopped after he had been expelled. Michelle From snorth at ucla.edu Fri Jan 17 11:58:40 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 03:58:40 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging References: Message-ID: <014301c2be1f$c811d270$0100a8c0@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 49955 > bboy_mn: > > One small problem, that particular statement is not in quotation marks > like the rest of Rowing's direct quotes, so we can't be sure if this > was a conclusion drawn by the interview, or if it was an actual direct > statement from JKR. And the interview does not directly attibute the > statement to her. > > Conclusion: We don't really know if that is the interview talking or > JKR talking. > > Yeah, that's what I thought when I read that. Though, taken in context with the two preceding paragraphs... well, let's say things are looking better for H/H shippers. I could see H/H people using it as their banner, all the while the R/H people will yell "It wasn't a direct quote!". Heh. -Scott (who thinks that Hermione WILL end up with Harry, if not just because it sets the stage perfectly for Ron's betrayal of Harry, followed by his subsequent redemption when he sacrifices his life to save Harry's. Or is that too obvious?) From heidit at netbox.com Fri Jan 17 09:10:25 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 05:10:25 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49956 Oh, that's what's happened in the past 13 months - both on this list and in other forums like FictionAlley's continuing ship debate thread. But like the actual quote from jkr about harry and hermione being very platonic friends, which she said in a pre-GoF interview and which r/h shippers tend to take as perpetual and h/h shippers tend to take as focused on GoF specifically, it's all about context and we, the fans, won't know the right answer until the end of book 7. -----Original Message----- From: "Scott Northrup" Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 03:58:40 To: Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging Real-To: "Scott Northrup" > bboy_mn: > > One small problem, that particular statement is not in quotation marks > like the rest of Rowing's direct quotes, so we can't be sure if this > was a conclusion drawn by the interview, or if it was an actual direct > statement from JKR. And the interview does not directly attibute the > statement to her. > > Conclusion: We don't really know if that is the interview talking or > JKR talking. > > Yeah, that's what I thought when I read that. Though, taken in context with the two preceding paragraphs... well, let's say things are looking better for H/H shippers. I could see H/H people using it as their banner, all the while the R/H people will yell "It wasn't a direct quote!". Heh. -Scott (who thinks that Hermione WILL end up with Harry, if not just because it sets the stage perfectly for Ron's betrayal of Harry, followed by his subsequent redemption when he sacrifices his life to save Harry's. Or is that too obvious?) ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 17 12:17:22 2003 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82 ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 12:17:22 -0000 Subject: "[Five] Years": Canon precedence; flowerbed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49957 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David " wrote: > Yes, I agree it only counts as a Flint if Dumbledore turns out to be > referring to his conversation at the *end* of PS where he > specifically refuses to answer Harry's question about why Voldemort > came after him. > > My thinking was that because Dumbledore is showing regret he is > referring to a specific missed opportunity, not just saying "I could > have told you this anytime in the last five years > > David Me: I've got a suspicion that they Dursleys should have given Harry that Letter from Dumbledore five years ago (approximately) but as we know they didn't. Now Dumbledore must know that Harry didn't get his letter ? as I can't see Hagrid keeping that from him. But he didn't re- send the letter did he? My guess is that he thought that maybe it would be better to wait until Harry was older after all and he is regretting this know. On a side note about the flowerbed scene ? I'm wondering if it might be in a dream or Harry's ?could be wrong but so far POA is the only book where we don't see one of Harry's dreams whilst he's at the Dursleys. In PS when we first meet 10 year old Harry he wakes up from a dream about a certain motorcycle and in COS he has a dream before being rescued by Ron and in GOF the first chapter is basically what Harry sees in his dream and ends with him waking up. So in both PS (if you ignore first chapter with baby Harry in it) and GOF we are first introduced to Harry as he wakes up from a dream. I've just got a feeling that maybe it could be another dream, theres got to be a twist in their somewhere! Michelle From bobafett at harbornet.com Fri Jan 17 10:17:56 2003 From: bobafett at harbornet.com (BoBaFeTT) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 02:17:56 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A small rant about stereotyping in the WW and Hogwarts Was: Evil Hufflepuffs References: Message-ID: <000701c2be11$b4d0cee0$cbf942cf@home> No: HPFGUIDX 49958 Jean said: >>>>>IMHO, 1,000 years is a long time for generations of students to hold the same grudges against one another that the four founders had against each other.<<<<< Me: Keep in mind these houses are most likely setup for their differences to keep them competitive, and we all know competitive situations can get fairly testy. So in actuallity it's not to much to expect the hatred to grow rather than subside over the 1000 years. When looking at it I am a bit surprised in the group Harry Hermione and Ron all being Griffendor. I would have much more expected to see groups comprised of 1 of each house. Generally speaking you see a leader (gryffindor) a brain (hufflepuf) a fighter (ravenclaw) working together against evil (slytherin) We do see those traits in the group of 3 but their all Gryff's. If anything I could see that there would be a greater chance that the 3 houses would group together against the Slytherin (they kinda do) BoBaFeTT [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 11:56:08 2003 From: gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com (gingersnape1966 ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 11:56:08 -0000 Subject: FILK: Sirius (tune: Yesterday) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49959 This is my first attempt at filking. It is to the tune of Yesterday by the Beatles. Scene: the Shrieking Shack Harry, Ron, and Hermione: Sirius, Haunted by the threat of Habeas, You left Azakaban and caused a fuss And now you want belief from us? Pettigrew Left his finger as the only clue When that Muggle street was torn in two. They say you work for You Know Who. Harry's Mum and Dad -oh, how sad, Did not survive. And you say it's true; Pettigrew Is still alive. Remus J. Came and magicked all our wands away. Since the fellow knows D.A.D.A. We'll hear what you have got to say. If you say the rat's where it's at, Then spells commence. Set your wands aglow and please show The evidence. Sirius, Have you got us in a Confundus? (Ron) I think my dad mentioned Imperius. (All) Can we believe you, Sirius? (Transformation of Scabbers/Pettigrew) (All) Yes, we believe you, Sirius! Well, hope you liked it, if not, throw anything but rotten cabbage. Ginger Oh, and if you have a problem with a book 4 reference in a book 3 song (Imperius) remember we donlt know *when* Ron's dad mentioned it to him, right? ;) From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Fri Jan 17 12:51:41 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 12:51:41 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging In-Reply-To: <004401c2bddd$e7aea640$052a4a0c@pavilion> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49960 > > Me (Cathy): > In my experience with actual children this age (I taught 5th grade through > 12th for 12 years) I found that the students who fought and bickered the > most at age 11 up through even 14 or 15 were the ones that ended up together > by the end of high school. I even had a trio of two boys and a girl (1 -3 > chairs in my trumpet section). The two who bickered (and hurt) each other > the most in jr. high ended up together in high school. In other words, you > might simply consider all of that fussing and fighting going on between Ron > and Hermione as "foreplay". Opposites often do attract, don't they? > Me: That is all very interesting, but also all very subjective. Different teens and preteens are going to have different kinds of relationship, as with their adult counterparts, because, like adults, they are all individuals with individual characteristics and different levels of 'maturity'. That kind of relationships (with lots of fussing and fighting) has always struck me as being an 'immature one' whether its be between youths or adults. I asked my daughter (who's 9 1/2 y/o) about who, she thought, liked whom, in the HP series. According to her it's 'obvious' that Ron likes Hermione. Why? I asked. "Because he hates her". "He likes her because he hates her?!" "How does that work?" "Well, he doesn't 'hate' her, it's just that some people are embarrased to show how they really feel and so they tease instead" "Ah, so Ron and Hermione are going to be girlfriend and boyfriend" "No. Hermione likes Harry" "But you just said that when people argue like that they they like eachother, didn't you" "Yeah, but it's just Ron who's like that, Hermione is different - she not embarrassed to show her feelings" So perhaps it's possible that all that teasing is 'foreplay' for Ron, but merely 'annoying' for Hermione ... Erica From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Fri Jan 17 13:15:07 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 13:15:07 -0000 Subject: Ron's contribution (was SHIP: JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging) In-Reply-To: <027701c2bddb$ff556830$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49961 Penny wrote: > I know we've sort of changed course what with the release news, but I realized I do have a few more things to say on this topic. It's OK, Penny. Despite being male, I will make a supreme effort and multi-task. Penny again: <<<<<<< I think Jim's right: Hermione is an integral part of Harry's success, and IMHO, Ron *is* falling behind the other two. As one commentator in the Ivory Tower book I read recently said, "Ron is wrong so often that you can almost be certain that whatever Ron says, the opposite is true" (that's a rough paraphrase from memory). As I've said before, I think Ron is so anxious to "keep up" with Harry's talents, etc. and Hermione's intellect, that he grasps at straws. Can that all change? Absolutely. But, as of the end of GoF, I would say that Ron is not on equal footing within the Trio. >>>>>>>> It is true that Ron is wrong so often that one tends to dismiss his theories because they're his. But do you mean that Ron is not on an equal footing *across the board*, or just in his ability to be correct in his insights? In terms of companionship, emotional support, magical ability, commitment, faith in the others, loyalty, and all those other things that go into friendship, do you think Ron is behind the other two, particularly Hermione? David, whose untested gut feeling is that when it comes to making assessments based on character, Ron is no worse than the other two From sevothtarte at gmx.net Fri Jan 17 13:18:56 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 14:18:56 +0100 Subject: Non-animagus animal transformations / Sirius and Dementors Message-ID: <3RQ07YV48XMLJC83A9UP983W3.3e2802c0@tk> No: HPFGUIDX 49962 There's a lot of talk about animagi, but what about normal wizards transforming into animals? We're given several examples of wizards turning objects (Cedric in GoF), each other (The Amazing Bouncing Ferret; mention of a student turning his friend in a badger; canary creams) or themselves (Krum) into animals. It seems like transforming oneself is the most difficult, since Krum's shark-transformation was incomplete, but it's possible. The only advantage of animagi is apparently that they don't need a wand and/or spell to change. Now, in PoA, the Ministry and the Hogwarts staff think of all kinds of safety measures - why does no one expect Sirius entering the grounds in animal form? They don't know he's an animagus, but he's a fully-trained, brilliant wizard, he could transform in the normal way. The spell might require a wand, but it had to be expected Sirius somehow got one, either by theft or from a fellow DE. Everyone's on alert, but no one wonders about that big dog, not even when it watches Quidditch? Strange. Next, just why is Sirius overwhelmed by the Dementors' powers at the end of PoA? He made it through Azkaban, so he's kind of used to having many of them around, and he says it didn't affect him there because he wasn't really guilty. That hasn't changed, and now he's got even more that should give him purpose and strength, catching Pettigrew and protecting the kids from Lupin. Why did he change back into human form in the first place? He either lost his wand or is unable to summon a Patronus, so he's only making things more difficult for himself by taking human shape. It would be easier to escape the Dementors as a dog Torsten From sevothtarte at gmx.net Fri Jan 17 12:59:59 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 13:59:59 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 1000 years of Slytherin vs. Gryffindor? (was: A small rant...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49963 bboy_mn: >I think Slytherin wins a lot (House Cup & Quidditch) because the have >a win at any cost to prove your superiority attitude, and Gryffindors >win a lot not because they are trying to take glory FOR themselves, >but because they are brave enough to challenge Slyterin and take glory > AWAY FROM them. > >Ravenclay is too busy thinking, and can't become obcesses with petty >distraction like Quidditch. Still, it's a bit odd Ravenclaw's not more of a serious contestant for the House Cup considering how often we see points awarded for correct answers in class. Ravenclaws are supposed to be the smart and learned ones after all. Just imagine Lupin and a class of twenty Hermione-like Ravenclaws, they should get enough points wo win the House Cup easily, success at Quidditch or not. Torsten From sevothtarte at gmx.net Fri Jan 17 12:45:34 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 13:45:34 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cursing Draco on the Train In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49964 Snuffles: >Students are allowed to still use magic on the Hogwarts express- so they >weren't technically breaking the under-aged wizard laws.... but certainly >cursing people like that yields at least a bent law?? No one can find out who cast which spell on the express, except through Priori Incantatem, so Draco would have a hard time proving what happened. The Ministry can only detect that a spell has been cast, not by whom. Harry got into trouble in CS because a Hovering charm was used, and since he's the only wizard in the house, the Ministry assumed it was him. How else could Fred and George have been creating their Wizard Wheezes during the holidays? They didn't get into trouble because the Ministry didn't know if their parents had cast the spells in question. Torsten From christyj2323 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 14:12:43 2003 From: christyj2323 at yahoo.com (Christy Jewell) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 06:12:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: How does book 5 end? In-Reply-To: <1042809312.3185.58322.m13@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030117141243.93373.qmail@web41405.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49965 dehavensangel: Please don't let this be so. That would just be cruel. IMO I think its in the middle. DD is telling him all to prepare him for what lies ahead. You can't fight the good fight without knowing all the facts. Actually, I wouldn't expect that quote to come at the end. All 4 books have followed a similar theme, with the beginning being Harry at the Dursley's and the end with Harry going back to the Dursley's. Dumbledore's already made it clear that as long as Voldemort is a threat Harry's safer at the Dursely's. I can't see any reason for Rowling to change that theme now, unless she suddenly changes the way the story's been going. I agree that the above quote, is probably close to the end, but most probably not the last line of the book. Christy, who has begun rereading the first four yet again... __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Jan 17 14:56:35 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:56:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] McGonagall was:Hagrid/the Chamber/the Monster Message-ID: <8557931.1042815395505.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49966 The Queen of Serpents writes: > But a strange question....when was Minerva McGonagall at Hogwarts? Was >she there when the Chamber was opened? Did she know Tom Riddle...um...well?
> getting strange images of a young rebellious Minnie smoking, drinking and
> kissing Slytherins behind the greenhouses then turning into the old dragon we If 50 years really meant 50 years, McGonagall had more than likely already left Hogwarts (as a student) when the chamber was opened. However, if 50 years meant approximately 50 years, as in, say, 45, then she could still have been a student there. And I don't know why, but I just got this wild assumption that McGonagall is a Seer. But that depends, of course, on just how much a Seer sees. If it's only bits and pieces and not all the time, yes I think she is. If a Seer sees everything, than no, never mind. Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Fri Jan 17 15:02:39 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:02:39 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A small rant about stereotyping in the WW and Hogwart... Message-ID: <30.36113fc9.2b59750f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49967 BoBaFeTT (thank goodness for cut-and-paste!): > Me: > Keep in mind these houses are most likely setup for their differences to > keep them competitive, and we all know competitive situations can get > fairly testy. > So in actuallity it's not to much to expect the hatred to grow rather > than subside over the 1000 years. Eloise: In _The Science of Harry Potter_, Roger Highfield explains by reference to the "Prisoner's Dilemma", that the house system at Hogwarts with its physical separation of the students into four groups contributes to greater stability and prevents the ambitious and self-seeking nature of the stereotypical Slytherin from dominating. The "Prisoner's Dilemma" is a game by which mathematicians, social scientists and biologists simulate the conflicts between groups and individuals: the conflict between selfish desire and the co-operation necessary for group advancement. It's too long to explain in detail but I shall quote (briefly): "Mathematical models suggest that when cooperators, such as Gryffindor, meet other cooperators, they tend to prosper. The non-cooperators, such as Slytherin, don't completely take over, even though in any given [individual] exchange with a cooperator they do well, because defectors do poorly when they interact with each other, while cooperators thrive and can even 'convert' some defectors to the better payoff from reciprocal cooperation." (Dumbledore and Snape, perhaps?) BoBaFeTT: > > When looking at it I am a bit surprised in the group Harry Hermione and > Ron all being Griffendor. > I would have much more expected to see groups comprised of 1 of each > house. > Generally speaking you see a leader (gryffindor) a brain (hufflepuf) a > fighter (ravenclaw) working together against evil (slytherin) > We do see those traits in the group of 3 but their all Gryff's. Eloise: I think the brains belong to Ravenclaw, don't they? Perserverance and hard work to Hufflepuff. Remember that the houses *are* very separate at Hogwarts, that the students live with their house-fellows, eat with them, can't pay social visits as the locations of the common rooms seem to be secret, have lessons largely within their own house group. Hogwarts does not facilitate mixing. If JKR had wanted her main characters to be of different houses, she would have had to conceive the Hogwarts House system very differently. It has been noted more than once that in fact the trio all display traits pertaining to different houses. As you would expect, unless JKR created incredibly crude, stereotypical characters. RL people tend to be complicated. JKR's best characters are just that. It has also been suggested (by myself and others) that JKR is in fact inviting us to fall into the trap of stereotyping, only to pull the rug out from under us later. Yeah. That was a bit of a mixed metaphor. You know what I mean. BoBaFeTT: > > If anything I could see that there would be a greater chance that the 3 > houses would group together against the Slytherin (they kinda do) Eloise: See The Prisoner's dilemma, above. ~Eloise > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From melclaros at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 16:28:41 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 16:28:41 -0000 Subject: Sorry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49968 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arcum42 " wrote: : > Well, I decided to approach it statistically, out of curiosity, and > searched the first four books for the word "sorry". So far, the word > sorry has actually been spoken in the books 100 times (Only counting > in actual dialogue), and 34 of those times it was spoken by Harry, > making him by far the most likely to be the one quoted. > > Hermione comes second, with 7 times. And Ron & Hagrid tie for third > with 6 each. Interestingly, Draco comes in for 4th place, having said > sorry 4 times, > and not meant it once... > And here the usage is important. "Sorry" does not neccessarily mean it's going to show up as "I'm sorry." For instance we know it's not going to be "I'm sorry I sicced a werewolf on you." All we have is 'sorry'? Let's try: You'll be sorry! -- You won't be sorry!-- What a sorry state. -- Sorry? No I'm not sorry! She felt sorry for him. Personally, I'm more interested in the word "sacked" from that card. Melpomene From urbana at charter.net Fri Jan 17 16:57:42 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 16:57:42 -0000 Subject: How does book five *end* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49969 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve " wrote: > > This can only be one of two things. It is either the setup for the > theme of this story, or it is the 'heavy load' Harry has to carry with > him through the summer; something for him to think about over the summer. (Ron and Hermione to Dumbledore??) Take the load off Harry C'mon on and be a friend Let him have a few months off (off...off...off) Before he has to save the world again... (to the tune of THE WEIGHT by The Band) Anne U (that's the refrain, I just can't think of the verses right now) From stormlass at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 16:57:07 2003 From: stormlass at yahoo.com (snapesrighthand) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:57:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Arabella Figg and cabbage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030117165707.95879.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49970 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "camdenandmo > " wrote: > > > 1) Sirus visiting Mrs. Figg as well as seeing Harry. How did > Sirus know where > > Harry was? He has apparently been out of the loop only picking up > on what > > he gathered from Azkaban discussions and read in "The Daily > Prophet." How > > hidden is Harry's summer location? We know that Sirius knows where Harry lives, because we saw him on Privet Drive in POA. Harry freaked out because there was a great black dog with bright eyes watching him. Then the Knight bus comes... remember? I know that everyone wants an explanation to everything, but Rowling could not possibly explain everything. We must assume Sirius knows because he was James and Lilys friend. Alex ===== It is a tough job, but somone has to do it! From kermit13166 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 14:46:05 2003 From: kermit13166 at yahoo.com (kermit13166 ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 14:46:05 -0000 Subject: Cursing Draco on the Train In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49971 This makes me wonder about another thing...In SS Petunia Dursley talks about her sister ...ch 4 "came home every vacation with her pockets full of frog spawn, turning teacups into rats" Makes one wonder if there is more to this family than pure Muggle blood and what is it with rats!!! --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Torsten wrote: > Snuffles: > >Students are allowed to still use magic on the Hogwarts express- so they > >weren't technically breaking the under-aged wizard laws.... but certainly > >cursing people like that yields at least a bent law?? > > No one can find out who cast which spell on the express, except through Priori > Incantatem, so Draco would have a hard time proving what happened. > > The Ministry can only detect that a spell has been cast, not by whom. Harry got into > trouble in CS because a Hovering charm was used, and since he's the only wizard in the > house, the Ministry assumed it was him. > > How else could Fred and George have been creating their Wizard Wheezes during the > holidays? They didn't get into trouble because the Ministry didn't know if their parents > had cast the spells in question. > > Torsten From jferer at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 17:23:45 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 17:23:45 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49972 Erica:"That is all very interesting, but also all very subjective. Different teens and preteens are going to have different kinds of relationship, as with their adult counterparts, because, like adults, they are all individuals with individual characteristics and different levels of 'maturity'." Being subjective is what we're all about here when discussing ships! ;) Erica's daughter, a perceptive young lady, explaining why it's obvious Ron likes Hermione:<<>> Different maturity levels do matter here, and that's what your daughter seems to be homing in on. I don't totally agree with your daughter, because I believe Hermione has feelings for Ron now. It seems established there will be a dating relationship between Ron and Hermione at some point. How long it will last and where Harry/Hermione goes after that is the issue. Best, Jim Ferer From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jan 17 17:29:21 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 17:29:21 -0000 Subject: It's the middle was Re: How does book five *end* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49973 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "shinesse " wrote: IMO I think > its in the middle. DD is telling him all to prepare him for what > lies ahead. You can't fight the good fight without knowing all the > facts. > I agree, it's from the middle. It's unlikely to be in the Hospital Wing, since Dumbledore tells Harry to sit down. If it were the HW then Harry would be in bed or else Rowling would have to tell us what he was sitting on. I think it's Dumbledore's office. Also, it's a standard plot convention that in the middle of the story the hero receives unexpected information which both changes his perspective and sets the stage for the final confrontation with the villain. Rowling has followed this convention in all four books. It is a common twist in mystery stories for this information to be *wrong* , of course. Book One -- Harry learns Fluffy is guarding the package from Gringotts. 162/309 Book Two--180/341 -- Harry learns the chamber is real and has been opened before Book Three--205/435 Harry learns Sirius betrayed his parents -- he didn't Book Four 333/734-- Sirius tells Harry he thinks the Tri-wizard entry is a DE plot to kill him (true) , and Karkaroff is in on it -- (apparently not) Since the revelation in book 5 is likely to change Harry's perspective on the whole Voldemort conflict, perhaps one way to estimate of the length of the series as a whole would be to count the number of pages from the start of Book One to the revelation in Book Five, and multiply by two. Pippin page numbers from the American hardcovers From jizzkitty420 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 17:20:00 2003 From: jizzkitty420 at yahoo.com (Giselle Sicle) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:20:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron's contribution (was SHIP: JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030117172000.82549.qmail@web13113.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49974 In response to your letter, Ron may not be up to par wit his best friends, but he's not always wrong. when he tries to think things through he is wrong but if you notice throughout the series, when Ron cracks a joke on the current situation, his answers are usually correct. "David " wrote:Penny wrote: > I know we've sort of changed course what with the release news, but I realized I do have a few more things to say on this topic. It's OK, Penny. Despite being male, I will make a supreme effort and multi-task. Penny again: <<<<<<< I think Jim's right: Hermione is an integral part of Harry's success, and IMHO, Ron *is* falling behind the other two. As one commentator in the Ivory Tower book I read recently said, "Ron is wrong so often that you can almost be certain that whatever Ron says, the opposite is true" (that's a rough paraphrase from memory). As I've said before, I think Ron is so anxious to "keep up" with Harry's talents, etc. and Hermione's intellect, that he grasps at straws. Can that all change? Absolutely. But, as of the end of GoF, I would say that Ron is not on equal footing within the Trio. >>>>>>>> It is true that Ron is wrong so often that one tends to dismiss his theories because they're his. But do you mean that Ron is not on an equal footing *across the board*, or just in his ability to be correct in his insights? In terms of companionship, emotional support, magical ability, commitment, faith in the others, loyalty, and all those other things that go into friendship, do you think Ron is behind the other two, particularly Hermione? David, whose untested gut feeling is that when it comes to making assessments based on character, Ron is no worse than the other two Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cindysphynx at comcast.net Fri Jan 17 17:49:01 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C. ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 17:49:01 -0000 Subject: Real Wizards Apologized 100 Times? (WAS Sorry?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49975 Arcum calculated: > Well, I decided to approach it statistically, out of curiosity, and > searched the first four books for the word "sorry". So far, the >word sorry has actually been spoken in the books 100 times (Only >counting in actual dialogue), and 34 of those times it was spoken >by Harry, making him by far the most likely to be the one quoted. > > Hermione comes second, with 7 times. And Ron & Hagrid tie for third > with 6 each. Interestingly, Draco comes in for 4th place, having >said sorry 4 times, and not meant it once... Oh, this is interesting. I had figured that the only true apologies in HP were when Hermione apologizes to Ron about Scabbers, when Avery begs forgiveness of Voldemort, and when Lupin and Sirius exchange apologies in the Shack. Arcum, can you give a few examples of when wizards say "Sorry" as a true apology? I know, I know, I could figure this out for myself, but I'm hoping that you'll share. ;-) Cindy -- wondering if it might be more accurate to say "Real Wizards Apologize Way Too Much" From shagadelic2129 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 17:39:16 2003 From: shagadelic2129 at yahoo.com (Kelly ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 17:39:16 -0000 Subject: Apparate Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49976 Hi this is my first post, so bear with me! A friend and I got into a discussion about the word apparate. More like an argument really. Can anyone tell me how to pronounce this word? It's not on the pronouciation guide on scholastic.com. I say it's app-a-rate and my friend says it's ah-pa-rah-tee. I'd appreciate if someone could enlighten me. Even if I'm wrong :) Kelly From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jan 17 18:05:45 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 18:05:45 -0000 Subject: Ron's contribution (was SHIP: JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49977 > Penny : > <<<<<<< I think Jim's right: Hermione is an integral part of Harry's success, and IMHO, Ron *is* falling behind the other two. As one commentator in the Ivory Tower book I read recently said, "Ron is wrong so often that you can almost be certain that whatever Ron says, the opposite is true" (that's a rough paraphrase from memory). As I've said before, I think Ron is so anxious to "keep up" with Harry's talents, etc. and Hermione's intellect, that he grasps at straws. << David: > In terms of companionship, emotional support, magical ability, > commitment, faith in the others, loyalty, and all those other things that go into friendship, do you think Ron is behind the other two, particularly Hermione? > (me, too, David) I'd like to add that usually when Ron opens his big mouth and Hermione jumps on him, Harry is just as clueless as Ron is. Harry doesn't know why Lupin is sick all the time either, nor does he have the slightest idea what happened to Mr. Crouch. It's only that Ron has a tendency to think out loud, whereas Hermione, as we all know, keeps her theories to herself until she can prove them and Harry would just as soon not think things out at all, if he can help it. Another talent Ron doesn't get credit for is leadership. It may be a result of movie contamination that people forget Wizard Chess is more than a game of strategy. It's a game of negotiation, like D&D, contract bridge or Diplomacy...you have to persuade your pieces to co-operate with each other and you. Ron, Harry has noted, is good at that. Penny earlier said: >>But, more importantly, I see lots of impatience with Ron from Hermione. How many times does she utter "Oh, Ron!" or tut-tut about something he offers up as a possible factor or solution. She's very dismissive of him really. Yet another reason why I think R/H would be an incredibly bad match-up. She'snot shown much interest so far in pumping up his self-esteem (low already)and he isn't actually going to shine or come into his own if he's constantlybeing overshadowed by both his best friend the Hero and his girlfriend the Over-Achiever.<< I think Ron *likes* it that she's impatient with him. She expects him to keep up with her, she obviously thinks he can, (which has to be a boost) and that's probably a pleasant change from being "ickle Ronniekins" at home. Besides, why does it have to be Hermione's job to improve her boy-friend's self -esteem? Sure, she has the ability to be a nurturing person, but why does her romantic interest have to be focused on that? If she needs to baby someone--well, that's what babies are for, IMNSHO. Maybe it's the feminist in me that doesn't like H/H. Ginny would already melt into a pile of goo if Harry looked at her. Why does Hermione have to be the same way? Pippin From potter76 at libero.it Fri Jan 17 11:57:27 2003 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 12:57:27 +0100 (ora solare Europa occ.) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "[Five] Years": Canon precedence; flowerbed References: Message-ID: <3E27EFA7.000001.44461@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 49978 chthonia9 wrote: what exactly is a flint, anyhow DM: A Flint is an error or contradiction in canon. The term derives from pg 185 of SS in the paperback version. We're told Marcus Flint is the Slytherin Captain in his sixth year. In the Harry's third year, the Prisoner of Azkaban, the Quidditch Final chapter, page 306, fourth line, Wood and Flint shake hands. This would be Flint's eighth year. You are only supposed to go to Hogwarts for seven! An arguable error indeed, J.K. Rowling has since clarified that Flint has held back a year, which makes sense considering Flint's character. Nonetheless, the name sticks. Me: A sort of useless 'clarification' on JKR's part as in later editions ( I've got a 49th Uk paperback) Marcus Flint is made a 5th year. R. From jodel at aol.com Fri Jan 17 18:18:39 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 13:18:39 EST Subject: Flints (and arrows?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49979 << What will we do if Harry gets up out of the flowerbed and sees Dudley on the internet? >> Well, the internet has been around since the '60s or earlier. It was text only, and mostly accessible from military bases and universities. But it did exist, and was mostly used by "normal" people for e-mail. I believe the web (which is only a portion of the 'Net) was essentially "invented" in '93, and it took a couple of years before anyone found any kind of a practical use for it. But there were certainly web pages and web sites available for investigation by the summer of '95. I think some people have pointed out already that there have been a few such technological glitches in the timing of things in the series already. Chiefly to do with Dudley's broken toys. Clearly, the boy is an "early adopter" of any technogizmo that comes down the track. It must be a nightmare to sort out this kind of thing in a series set in such a recent "historical" era. Anyone watched the film "Clueless" recently and been reminded that the scene with every third teenager pulling out a cel phone in the halls between classes was originally intended as a joke? -JOdel From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jan 17 18:45:08 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 18:45:08 -0000 Subject: Evil!Lupin explains it all for you Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49980 I know we've moved away from this thread, but since people are still wondering about things that Evil!Lupin theory explains very well, such as why he's so ready to kill Pettigrew and what made the Dementors attack Sirius, I'll deliver a response and a few more thoughts on the subject. I said: > ...most people think that Harry is right [in the way that he thinks about Lupin as opposed to the way Lupin presents himself in his confession] and Lupin is just beating up on himself. People have come up with a whole lot of reasons that Lupin's conscience *might* have been weighing in on both sides of the issue. But these are conjecture.< Maria: >>> I don't agree. Lupin says in his confession: "...I had led three fellow students into becoming Animagi illegally." Whatever anyone may say, Lupin here is obviously being too hard on himself. How could he lead "the ringleaders of their little gang" into becoming Animagi? IMO you couldn't make James and Sirius do anything against their will,.<<< Well, not against their will maybe, but Hermione sure managed to railroad Harry and Ron into that polyjuice caper, and nobody would describe her as the leader of Harry's little gang. And Ron ran the chess game in PS/SS. We just don't know what the dynamics were. Maria: > everyone seems to excuse Lupin anyway, except Pippin, who apparently can't be moved (sorry, Pippin... I >don't say it in a mean way :) )<< Not at all ;-) Well, Maria made me think about why I am being so stubborn here. When I first read PoA, I liked Lupin just as much as Harry does until I got to that confession. It really disturbed me. It is so full of self-hate. I do not like self-hating characters. I'm afraid I don't read the confession as a Damascus moment. I read it as the whinging of a perpetual guilt-tripper. Those are stock figures in my culture (think Woody Allen). You feel guilty because you're different, so you do something stupid and get in trouble. That makes you feel better, because at least it's *you* making you feel guilty now, but then you angst over the consequences, you start feeling guilty again, and the cycle repeats ad nauseam. Lupin must have been in the same double-bind as a student as Hermione is in now. She started by really being gung-ho for studying hard and obeying the rules, hoping to be accepted by her new culture. Then she discovered to her horror that the student sub-culture was all about not being keen and breaking rules when it suits you. That's fine if you're a good ol' boy and not so great if you're an outsider. (You know you've really arrived when your kids can get in trouble and it doesn't reflect on your kind.) What Lupin did as a teen wasn't any worse, objectively, than what James and the others did. What made it much much worse for *him*, IMO, was his outsider status, his debt to Dumbledore, and the possibility that other werewolves were going to be set back in their struggle for acceptance. (We know from "Hairy Snout, Human Heart", that there were other werewolves struggling out there.) Think of the way Harry felt when he realized Hagrid and others like him were counting on him to do well in the Tri-Wizard Cup. Lupin must have felt pressure like that, too. There was no way he could feel good about himself. And if you're going to hate yourself, why not hate yourself with good reason? You might even start thinking the wizarding world deserves to rot in its own corruption. I don't believe Snape can hate other people as much as he does and not hurt himself. I can't believe Lupin can hate himself as he does and not hurt other people. That would be a lie, and if it is not Lupin's lie then it is Rowling's lie and I shall be disappointed in her. But I think she may have been thinking of more than Ancient Rome when she named Lupin. I don't know if people remember dear, sweet, nice, gentle, kindly Uncle Remus, the former slave whose tales are full of subversion, but who, as depicted in the stories of Joel Chandler Harris, harbored not a particle of resentment against the child of privilege. Nowadays, that is considered a damaging stereotype because it sets an impossible standard of nobility. But I'll close with one of his proverbs. He said something like this: You can hide the fire. But what you gonna do with the smoke? Pippin whose Ever So Evil Lupin theory was first posted at #39362 and will probably have to revise it severely in late June. From lethafaraday at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 19:11:49 2003 From: lethafaraday at yahoo.com (Ava Gordon) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 11:11:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sorry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030117191149.15441.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49981 "melclaros " wrote:Personally, I'm more interested in the word "sacked" from that card. Well, sure, we all know who immediately comes to mind, and the reasons why one might suspect him to be sacked, at least for sake of appearance, and convenience (so he can go roam about doing what he's supposed to be doing). And Ron's hopeful theory in CoS that 'maybe he's been sacked" could be - foreshadowing? JKR DOES have a habit of making indecipherable-at-the-time hints, like Dobby's explanation of the hint he gave Harry (also CoS of course) which, standing alone, had a fortune-cookie-message quality. Letha Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pennylin at swbell.net Fri Jan 17 19:22:47 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 13:22:47 -0600 Subject: Ron's contribution; and SHIP: JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging References: Message-ID: <041601c2be5d$d1967650$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 49982 Hi -- David asked: > In terms of companionship, emotional support, magical ability, > commitment, faith in the others, loyalty, and all those other things that go into friendship, do you think Ron is behind the other two, particularly Hermione?>>>>>>>>> Well, aside from his being on the outs with Harry for the better part of a month or more in GoF, no. [BTW, I've thought that having them get into a fight did actually make alot of sense, since it really isn't natural for friends to never have arguments or fights, and I think they were both at fault for prolonging the disagreement, though I've always thought Ron was initially in the wrong]. Ron is a loyal friend, and obviously he means alot to both Harry and Hermione. I'm not suggesting that he will suddenly be excluded in some way ....... but I think if the trends of GoF continue, he will be bound to notice that he isn't contributing as much to solving the mysteries (if that remains the central element of each individual book's plotline that is). For example, in CoS, Hermione's detective work and Harry's observing the crumpled paper in her hand led Harry to put all the pieces together. If you re-read the conversation, Ron contributes nothing to that solution; Harry is thinking out loud and he puts it all together. Of course, Ron was around for the Aragog adventure, which contributed to the overall solution .... but for the most part, I'd say the mystery was solved by the tandem efforts of Hermione and Harry. In PoA, Ron is out cold when Hermione and Harry together figure out what Dumbledore means for them to do. In GoF, because of the Harry/Ron disagreement, you see Hermione and Harry working as a team on the First Task solution. The Trio all work together and fail miserably at figuring out what Harry needs to do to accomplish the Second Task. The Third Task preparation is also largely a team effort. But, in several conversations in GoF, my perception is that Ron is throwing out wild theories left & right and that Harry and Hermione are more or less ignoring him, while they work out what it might all mean. So, no, I don't think that Ron is somehow less qualified to be their friend. I think his loyalty is his strongest suit. And obviously, his chess abilities do seem to indicate he's got some strategizing skills that could be put to use -- I don't know why we haven't seen this out of Ron since PS/SS though. I think Ron already has dangerously low self-esteem and that if he rightly or wrongly perceives that he's not contributing as much as the other two, it will be hard on overall relations amongst the Trio. Pippin: <<<<>>>>>>> Harry thinks things out loud in both CoS and PoA, as I mentioned above. He is a procrastinator on the tasks for the Tournament in GoF, but he does reason things through and think about alternative possibilities once he gets going. Not following you here. Pippin: <<<>>>>>>>>>> Well, I think encouraging and supporting your partner is completely different from "babying." In fact, I don't think Ron needs babying at all. That's the last thing he needs. What he really needs is to sort out his self-esteem problems and *then* he'll be ready for a romantic relationship with someone like Hermione. At the present though, I think he would need to see himself as the dominant or more successful party, and he's sure not going to get that from Hermione. I think if the two of them end up dating it will turn into a power battle, due to Ron not being confident enough in his own abilities to let Hermione shine in her own right. <<<>>>>>>> Okay, I'm *really* not following you here. Why is H/H premised on Hermione suddenly turning into an adoring, simpering, star-struck girl? Uh. No. You see, that's completely the opposite of what most H/H proponents argue. Most of us see them as both being strong enough people to enter into a partnership ..... Ginny would hero-worship Harry from appearances so far (it appears that her crush is based on "The Boy Who Lived," rather than Harry Potter, real boy). Hermione would *not* hero-worship him. That's the whole point. Harry is the hero, and so there's that danger of hero-worship for whoever his romantic partners are. But, Hermione would quite clearly not fall into that category, which is one of the many reasons that H/H has always appealed to me. Maybe it's the feminist in me that gets all riled up about R/H. It's been my experience that many R/H'ers have a tendency to focus on Ron's feelings and conclude that because Ron likes her, it's a given that there will be a romance. "But, it's *obvious* that Ron liiiiiiikes her." To which I say a big giant: "So. What." It takes two. Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From selah_1977 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 19:40:28 2003 From: selah_1977 at yahoo.com (Ebony ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 19:40:28 -0000 Subject: Nineteen Ninety-Five (filk) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49983 I said: What will we do if Harry gets up out of the flowerbed and > > sees Dudley on the internet? (Of course, there were no Yahoo! > groups > > then...) > > > > I'll be looking forward to seeing what role, if any, contemporary > > events in the Muggle world play in this next book. > Debbie replied: > JK said that the wizarding world does not need the internet because > of..... well, apparently, she's going to tell us in book 5. I did > read that in one of her intervews. > Hmm. Well... note I said "Dudley" and not Harry. I would hope that a middle-class British family like the Dursleys have internet access during the second half of the 1990s. I mean, if anyone would, *they* would, to give Dudders all the advantages. In other words, they're Muggles and not wizards. So I admit to being a tad confused by your rationale! --Ebony From selah_1977 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 19:44:32 2003 From: selah_1977 at yahoo.com (Ebony ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 19:44:32 -0000 Subject: The Science of Harry Potter (was the Trio's Houses) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49984 Eloise wrote: "In _The Science of Harry Potter_, Roger Highfield explains by reference to the "Prisoner's Dilemma", that the house system at Hogwarts with its physical separation of the students into four groups contributes to greater stability and prevents the ambitious and self-seeking nature of the stereotypical Slytherin from dominating. The "Prisoner's Dilemma" is a game by which mathematicians, social scientists and biologists simulate the conflicts between groups and individuals: the conflict between selfish desire and the co-operation necessary for group advancement." If you come to Nimbus - 2003, you'll get to meet Roger Highfield, as he is one of our featured guest speakers: http://www.hp2003.org I'm not so sure that the Prisoner's Dilemma works for the Sorting Hat, thought. The Hat seems to sort people according to individual traits rather than group dynamism, IMO. --Ebony AKA AngieJ From siskiou at earthlink.net Fri Jan 17 19:44:58 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 11:44:58 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging In-Reply-To: <027701c2bddb$ff556830$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> References: <8147842929.20030114135840@earthlink.net> <027701c2bddb$ff556830$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: <13086129358.20030117114458@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 49985 Hi, Thursday, January 16, 2003, 7:53:29 PM, Penny wrote: > Yes, but Hermione hasn't been Ron's girlfriend before. If Ron and > Hermione were to develop a dating relationship, I suspect Ron's > jealous nature might well come into play. See, I don't think we'll be having any serious dating any time soon. Things are still at the very beginning, with nobody having admitted anything, yet, and the way romance has been a very, very small part of the books, I could imagine it taking quite a while longer before Ron and Hermione actually do date. And Ron's "jealous nature" only came into play because there was something to be jealous *about*. Hermione did have a relationship with Victor Krum, however harmless it may have been from her side, but Harry has been friends with Hermione for years now, and nothing has changed in their friendship to make Ron feel jealous. > Friday, January 17, 2003, 11:22:47 AM, Penny wrote: > >> That's the whole point. Harry is the >> hero, and so there's that danger of hero-worship for whoever his >> romantic partners are. But, Hermione would quite clearly not fall >> into that category, which is one of the many reasons that H/H has >> always appealed to me. > >> Maybe it's the feminist in me that gets all riled up about R/H. It's >> been my experience that many R/H'ers have a tendency to focus on Ron's >> feelings and conclude that because Ron likes her, it's a given that >> there will be a romance. "But, it's *obvious* that Ron liiiiiiikes >> her." To which I say a big giant: "So. What." It takes two. I agree . That why I'm having problems with H/H. Harry just doesn't show any romantic feelings for Hermione and it makes me feel like someone is "arranging" a relationship between them, because the two of them sound like they *should* make a great couple (on the surface). But there are also parts of their personalities that *don't* fit together all that well. And developing feelings for someone doesn't always follow logic ;) If I only saw Ron having feelings for Hermione and nothing in return from her, I wouldn't feel that JKR was planning on going somewhere with this little subplot. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From nd92n57 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 19:39:14 2003 From: nd92n57 at yahoo.com (Thomas Sullivan) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 13:39:14 -0600 Subject: Ron's contribution (was SHIP: JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <009b01c2be60$2118da90$c19cfea9@thomasvz836clf> No: HPFGUIDX 49986 > Penny : > <<<<<<< I think Jim's right: Hermione is an integral part of Harry's success, and IMHO, Ron *is* falling behind the other two. As one commentator in the Ivory Tower book I read recently said, "Ron is wrong so often that you can almost be certain that whatever Ron says, the opposite is true" (that's a rough paraphrase from memory). As I've said before, I think Ron is so anxious to "keep up" with Harry's talents, etc. and Hermione's intellect, that he grasps at straws. << David: > In terms of companionship, emotional support, magical ability, > commitment, faith in the others, loyalty, and all those other things that go into friendship, do you think Ron is behind the other two, particularly Hermione? > (me, too, David) I'd like to add that usually when Ron opens his big mouth and Hermione jumps on him, Harry is just as clueless as Ron is. Harry doesn't know why Lupin is sick all the time either, nor does he have the slightest idea what happened to Mr. Crouch. It's only that Ron has a tendency to think out loud, whereas Hermione, as we all know, keeps her theories to herself until she can prove them and Harry would just as soon not think things out at all, if he can help it. Another talent Ron doesn't get credit for is leadership. It may be a result of movie contamination that people forget Wizard Chess is more than a game of strategy. It's a game of negotiation, like D&D, contract bridge or Diplomacy...you have to persuade your pieces to co-operate with each other and you. Ron, Harry has noted, is good at that. Penny earlier said: >>But, more importantly, I see lots of impatience with Ron from Hermione. How many times does she utter "Oh, Ron!" or tut-tut about something he offers up as a possible factor or solution. She's very dismissive of him really. Yet another reason why I think R/H would be an incredibly bad match-up. She'snot shown much interest so far in pumping up his self-esteem (low already)and he isn't actually going to shine or come into his own if he's constantlybeing overshadowed by both his best friend the Hero and his girlfriend the Over-Achiever.<< I think Ron *likes* it that she's impatient with him. She expects him to keep up with her, she obviously thinks he can, (which has to be a boost) and that's probably a pleasant change from being "ickle Ronniekins" at home. Besides, why does it have to be Hermione's job to improve her boy-friend's self -esteem? Sure, she has the ability to be a nurturing person, but why does her romantic interest have to be focused on that? If she needs to baby someone--well, that's what babies are for, IMNSHO. Maybe it's the feminist in me that doesn't like H/H. Ginny would already melt into a pile of goo if Harry looked at her. Why does Hermione have to be the same way? Pippin That's what I'd like about H/H because Hermoine wouldn't melt into a pile of Goo. Harry and Hermoine would be equals in their relationship. Hermoine and Ron would not be. I think that would be the dow fall of their relationship. Ginny would be too weak of a character for Harry. Harry and Ginny will become friends while Ron and Hermoine date, which is why Ginny is suppose to play a bigger part in OOP. Remember Harry doesn't like the kind of attention Ginny and others bestows upon him. I think the ending relationship will be H/H. It will start R/H as JKR has indicated. Hey David: I think the Trio are a bit like the three founders. Harry-Gryffindor, Hermoine-Ravenclaw and Ron-Hufflepuff (when he is not jealous of Harry). Of the three, Ron is the weakest in terms of Magical Ability . Harry and Hermoine are equal for different reasons. Harry is a powerful wizard naturally while Hermoine abilities are learned. I believe Harry is only going to get stronger and better in terms of Magical ability. Will this make Ron more jeaous? Just imagine what Harry would be like if he was raised in a Wizarding family. Intellect wise Harry and Ron seem on par. Also I think Harry has too much on his mind to think about stuff which is why you have a character like Hermoine. But we are also led to believe Harry may be more insightful when it concerns Voldemort or his followers becuase this is stuff that is always on his mind. Ron is a brilliant strategist as we can tell from his ability to play Wizard Chess. Will this become useful in later books are was Ron's shining moment in PS/SS? Harry and Hermoine have faith in and unquestionably loyalty to each other, Ron and others in their close circle. Ron's jealousy brings his loyalty and faith in his friends into question. In GOF, it is really only Dumbledore, Hermoine and Siruis that believe Harry. Tom From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 20:17:41 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 20:17:41 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging In-Reply-To: <014301c2be1f$c811d270$0100a8c0@xyrael> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49987 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Scott Northrup" wrote: > > > bboy_mn: > > > > One small problem, that particular statement is not in quotation > > marks like the rest of Rowing's direct quotes, ... > > > > Conclusion: We don't really know if that is the interview talking > > or JKR talking. > > > -end this part- > Scott: > > Yeah, that's what I thought when I read that. Though, taken in context with > the two preceding paragraphs... ...edited... > > Heh. > > -Scott > bboy_mn: Another thing I would like to point out is that not only is that not a quote but it is also in a different section. Where JKR is quoted, the section is titled "Romance". http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/1726528.stm The section about Harry/Hermione is in a section titled "Film" and it seems to be the 'wrap up' or the 'conclusion' to the article. So, while I can't prove anything, I'm leaning toward it being a conclusion reach by a very eager but ill-informed reporter. Think of some of the rediculous things you've seen news writers write about HP/JKR. Frequently, the fact are so poorly researched and muddled that they are truly laughable. At least it would be laughable, if it wasn't such sad jornalism. Again, I don't know. But given that it is not quoted and that it is in a new section, I have to think it was some muddle-headed reporter. Just a thought. bboy_mn who thinks there will /appear/ to be something between H/H and in some small way, especially if Harry is sad and in need of some comfort, there may even be something small and romantic-like to their relationship. But eventually that will straighten out, and Hermione and Ron will get together, but I also see that ending in a 'let's just be friends' kind of way. Kids this age 'testing' relationship, and will frequently be going steady with a different new 'one true love' every month. In the end, I don't see anyone in a serious romantic relationship with anyone. But I do see the deep loving friendship growing to an even deep and more intimate level. Gradually changing from 'playground' friends to deep adult friends. bb From srsiriusblack at aol.com Fri Jan 17 20:18:17 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 15:18:17 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] McGonagall was:Hagrid/the Chamber/the Monster Message-ID: <15b.1a8c9fc3.2b59bf09@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 49988 In a message dated 17/01/2003 10:02:03 Eastern Standard Time, rvotaw at i-55.com writes: > And I don't know why, but I just got this wild assumption that McGonagall is > a > Seer. But that depends, of course, on just how much a Seer sees. If it's > only > bits and pieces and not all the time, yes I think she is. If a Seer sees > everything, than no, never mind. There really isn't a lot to back up this theory in cannon except for the fact that MM has such absolute disdain for Trelawney. It would be interesting to see it come ti fruition, though. I think it's more likely that she has a 3rd sense, but maybe not what is called Seeing by Trelawney's definition.... DD certainly has a psychic sense... -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From groml at cards.lanck.net Fri Jan 17 19:26:09 2003 From: groml at cards.lanck.net (Maria Gromova) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 22:26:09 +0300 Subject: Can the Mirror of Erised show the truth? Message-ID: <00ec01c2be5f$0c327880$cb42983e@rcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 49989 I have an idea - how do you think, can the Mirror of Erised show one the truth by the way of showing one a desire one had never known one had (that is, was afraid to know one had it)? Crokshanks. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 21:04:33 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 21:04:33 -0000 Subject: House Points (1k years of Slytherin vs. Gryffindor? ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49990 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Torsten wrote: > bboy_mn: > >I think Slytherin wins a lot (House Cup & Quidditch) because the > >have a win at any cost to prove your superiority attitude, and > >Gryffindors win ... because they are brave enough to challenge > > Slyterin .... > > > >Ravenclay is too busy thinking, ... > - - - - - > > Still, it's a bit odd Ravenclaw's not more of a serious contestant > for the House Cup ....EDITED... > > Torsten BBOY_MN: (on a new topic) Speaking of the House Cup, I've often wondered if all the houses starte with zero point and go from there, or if the all start with say 300 point and go up and down from that point. Condsidering that the final house points tends to be between 300 and 500, starting at zero, each house would have to win an awful lot of points to reach 400. I just don't think we see that may point being won during the course of the school year. So I'm inclinded to think they start at some number (200 or 300) and the total rises and falls from there. Any thoughts? bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 21:28:04 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 21:28:04 -0000 Subject: Cursing Draco on the Train In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49991 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, srsiriusblack at a... wrote: > In a message dated 16/01/2003 18:55:57 Eastern Standard Time, > SnapesSlytherin at a... writes: > > > I've been thinking about that (how Harry & Co. cursed Draco and > > his coterie)....why didn't they get in trouble? > Snuffles: > > this goes back to an earlier question I had... What will the > atmosphere be at Hogwarts this year? With the tensions mounting > and people like Draco and Co. running amok about the school with > their D.E. ideals... how will tensions among students be > controlled? > > -Snuffles bboy_mn: To the original question of why no one got into any trouble. We don't know that they didn't get into trouble. That said, I think the first competent adult wizard who happened a long would be able to sort things out, and set the Dark-Trio right. These are afteral first and second year harrasment curses. I imagine every wizard and witch has used them on a friend or enemy during their school years. Next, I don't think Draco is going to be too eager to tell anyone what happened, although word has a way of getting around. Kids this age tend to deal with their own problems, the code of the play ground does not allow a person to 'tell'. And, I think that is exactly how Draco will want to deal with it. I think now that the Dark Lord is back, Draco is going to be feeling pretty bold. Thinking he has the Dark Lord behind him, I think Draco - King of the Slytherins doesn't believe ANYONE would dare to challange him now. Now to Snuffles and the atmosphere at the school. It is going to be tense and HOSTILE without a doubt. Discipline at an all time low and rivaries at an all time high. I think it is safe to say we can expect trouble, serious trouble, in the hall of Hogwarts this year. One thing I thought of, although it was more like one of those sudden FanFic inspirational moments, is that Draco will kill Hedwig just because he is the mean spiteful cowardly rat that he is, and Harry will throw down his wand and proceed to beat the crap out of Draco. It will take a half a dozen people to pull him off. This is how and why Harry will get a new pet, and without a doubt that will be one death that is difficult for JKR to write, and equally emotionally difficult for us to read. Harry really loves that bird. In a sense, Hedwig is his only real family. She will be there and remain true to him even as friends come and go. The one thing in this life that is his alone. Tell me that isn't a heartbreaker. Just a thought. bboy_mn From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 21:49:04 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 21:49:04 -0000 Subject: Evil!Lupin explains it all for you In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49992 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999 " wrote: > Maria: > > everyone seems to excuse Lupin anyway, except Pippin, who > apparently can't be moved (sorry, Pippin... I >don't say it in a > mean way :) )<< > > Not at all ;-) > > Well, Maria made me think about why I am being so stubborn > here. When I first read PoA, I liked Lupin just as much as Harry > does until I got to that confession. It really disturbed me. It is > so full of self-hate. I do not like self-hating characters. > > I'm afraid I don't read the confession as a Damascus moment. I > read it as the whinging of a perpetual guilt-tripper. Okay -- here we get to the point! What makes you see it as *perpetual* self hate? And why must it be either that or a "Damascus moment"(a moment where one's entire life is changed)? I saw the confession rather as Lupin's first adult reaction to getting loose as a werewolf and nearly biting someone. As a teenager, he says, there were near misses, but you know how teenagers are: "well, nothing happened," they'll say. Now an incident happens in his maturity that echoes what he did with the Marauders (the werewolf and the secret of the animagi) and he sees all his rationalizations for what they were. It happens. People do wrong, and then realize how wrong they were. This usually does come with some self-loathing, but it doesn't have to be permanent. Lupin can and will forgive himself, learn the lesson, and then get on with joining the fight against Voldemort. > I don't believe Snape can hate other people as much as he does > and not hurt himself. I can't believe Lupin can hate himself as he > does and not hurt other people. That would be a lie, and if it is > not Lupin's lie then it is Rowling's lie and I shall be disappointed > in her. I'm with you on Snape -- he's making himself miserable. But from what I read all through PoA, Lupin is very concerned about other people, and quite kind to them. A man full of hatred for himself could never know just what to do to help Neville with his fear of Snape, for instance. And I *have* read you original Evil Lupin post, and it does look SOOOO possible, but I don't think it will turn out to be true. I *hope* it won't turn out to be true! ;) But I think she may have been thinking of more than > Ancient Rome when she named Lupin. > > I don't know if people remember dear, sweet, nice, gentle, kindly > Uncle Remus, the former slave whose tales are full of > subversion, but who, as depicted in the stories of Joel Chandler > Harris, harbored not a particle of resentment against the child of > privilege. Nowadays, that is considered a damaging stereotype > because it sets an impossible standard of nobility. But I'll close > with one of his proverbs. He said something like this: You can > hide the fire. But what you gonna do with the smoke? > > Pippin > whose Ever So Evil Lupin theory was first posted at #39362 and > will probably have to revise it severely in late June. Oh, yeah. This group will be positvely strewn with the wreckage of theories and pieces of theories after June 21st. And if we have to wait as long for Book 6, we'll do it all over again! :D Annemehr who's never read Uncle Remus, but doesn't see any smoke that neccessarily leads back to Evil Lupin, although she admits that she never will until she chokes on it! From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 21:52:01 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 21:52:01 -0000 Subject: Apparate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49993 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly " wrote: > Hi this is my first post, so bear with me! A friend and I got into a > discussion about the word apparate. More like an argument really. > Can anyone tell me how to pronounce this word? It's not on the > pronouciation guide on scholastic.com. I say it's app-a-rate and my > friend says it's ah-pa-rah-tee. I'd appreciate if someone could > enlighten me. Even if I'm wrong :) > > Kelly bboy_mn: Does your friend by any chance study French? Apparate is derived from the word 'apparition' ap?pa?ri?tion (ap-a-rish-en) n. 1. A ghostly figure; a specter. 2. A sudden or unusual sight. 3. The act of appearing; appearance. [Middle English apparicioun, from Old French apparition, from Late Latin app?riti?, app?riti?n-, an appearance, from Latin app?ritus, past participle of app?r?re, to appear. See APPEAR.] (sorry about the wierd simbols, they are the upside-down 'e' or other accented or long/short vowels) Note definition 3. so the word has a common American pronunciation App-a-rate. You win. bboy_mn From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Jan 17 21:58:58 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 15:58:58 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] McGonagall was:Hagrid/the Chamber/the Monster References: <15b.1a8c9fc3.2b59bf09@aol.com> Message-ID: <004301c2be73$a3ca3610$b79fcdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 49994 Snuffles writes: > There really isn't a lot to back up this theory in cannon except for the fact > that MM has such absolute disdain for Trelawney. It would be interesting to > see it come ti fruition, though. I think it's more likely that she has a 3rd > sense, but maybe not what is called Seeing by Trelawney's definition.... DD > certainly has a psychic sense... McGonagall's remarks about Trelawney would be quite ironic if indeed McGonagall did turn out to be a Seer. I don't have much to base this on, in other words, McGonagall doesn't seem the type to sit around looking at tea leaves and into crystal balls. But is that how a true Seer always sees? Or is a "true Seer" like someone with a sixth sense/psychic ability? McGonagall always turns up, she's on Privet Drive (true, someone could've told her that's where Harry was being taken); she arrives with Snape and Quirrell (leading them, in fact) in the troll incident. When the teachers were *supposed* to be in the dungeons. Why wasn't she? How did she know to go there? Did she follow Quirrell? Did she follow Snape? Or just go on her own accord, instead of going to the dungeons? Anyway, it's just a lot of little things, no big prophecies or anything, just little things that may or may not add up to something. Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dicentra at xmission.com Fri Jan 17 22:01:41 2003 From: dicentra at xmission.com (dicentra63 ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 22:01:41 -0000 Subject: Can the Mirror of Erised show the truth? In-Reply-To: <00ec01c2be5f$0c327880$cb42983e@rcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49995 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Maria Gromova" wrote: > I have an idea - how do you think, can the Mirror of Erised show one > the truth by the way of showing one a desire one had never known one > had (that is, was afraid to know one had it)? That's a good question. I've often wanted to look into Erised just to see what it picked up on. Maybe it would show me looking into Erised because that's what I most wanted to do at the moment. :D Oooh! Oooh! What if! What if Harry wants something evil but he goes into big denial about it? Then he happens upon the mirror and he sees that evil thing he wants. Talk about a shock! Maybe that would be a Big Revelation Moment similar to overhearing the conversation at The Three Broomsticks. But if it happens in Book 5, it can't be one-third of the way through the book, as Pippin calculated, because that's when Dumbledore Tells All. Or at least attempts to before he is shot by a Muggle pistol with a silencer. :D --Dicentra, who has seen too much "24" lately From andrewhogue2001 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 21:59:23 2003 From: andrewhogue2001 at yahoo.com (Richard ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 21:59:23 -0000 Subject: What will Dumbledore tell Harry? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49996 "Dumbledore lowered his hands and surveyed Harry through his half-moon glasses. "It is time," he said, "for me to tell you what I should have told you five years ago, Harry. Please sit down. I am going to tell you everything." (Source. www.bn.com) Any thoughts about what Dumbledore will have to tell Harry? "Richard" From Ali at zymurgy.org Fri Jan 17 22:07:07 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 22:07:07 -0000 Subject: Ron's contribution (was SHIP: JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging) In-Reply-To: <009b01c2be60$2118da90$c19cfea9@thomasvz836clf> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49997 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Sullivan" wrote: Ron's jealousy brings his loyalty and faith in his friends into question. In GOF, it is really only Dumbledore, Hermoine and Siruis that believe Harry.>> I have to disagree with you there. Ron was bad, very bad, but for 3 weeks. From the time of Harry's name being called out until the First Task was 24 days. For the rest of the book he was as loyal as anyone. I think Ron's jealousy is and will be very significant, but I also think it should be put in context. I remember children swapping friends and falling out with each other on a regular basis at school. If anything, JKR paints a somewhat idealistic view of childhood relationships. Ron realises he was wrong and seeks to make amends, which Harry accepts. Ali A card carrying lollipop holder, but in all other ways a relative non- Shipper who would prefer H/H but sees R/H in the more immediate future From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 22:29:07 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 22:29:07 -0000 Subject: What will Dumbledore tell Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 49998 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard " wrote: > "Dumbledore lowered his hands and surveyed Harry through his > half-moon glasses. "It is time," he said, "for me to tell you what I > should have told you five years ago, Harry. Please sit down. I am > going to tell you everything." (Source. www.bn.com) > > Any thoughts about what Dumbledore will have to tell Harry? > > "Richard" bboy_mn: First, and foremost, why Voldemort wants to kill him, which in turn will involve a history of his parents, which in turn will involve the story of that fateful night when his parents were killed and he got his scar. In the process of finding that out, we will learn about the 'ancient magic' that protects him, and a whole lot of things we never even conceived of not even in our wildest dreams, and that is saying a lot when you consider some of the wild 'dreams' that have been posted here. -Why Voldemort wants to kill Harry. -Why Voldemort didn't care one way or another whether Harry's mother died. -The heir of Griffindor/Slytherin issue will be resolved. -Who Mrs. Figg is will be resolved. -I suspect an unforeseen relationship between the Potters and the Weasleys. -I hope we will find out where his parents are buried. I speculated that at some point he would want to visit their graves. -An unforeseen (although not necessarily in this group) relationship between Harry and Dumbledore. -Where Harry's parents got their money. OK, what am I forgetting here????? bboy_mn From Heleen at ptdprolog.net Fri Jan 17 22:24:08 2003 From: Heleen at ptdprolog.net (Heleen Greenwald) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 17:24:08 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Science of Harry Potter (was the Trio's Houses) References: Message-ID: <013801c2be77$27fd69e0$a500a8c0@boghouse> No: HPFGUIDX 49999 ----- Original Message ----- I'm not so sure that the Prisoner's Dilemma works for the Sorting Hat, thought. The Hat seems to sort people according to individual traits rather than group dynamism, IMO. --Ebony AKA AngieJ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't individual traits make up group dynamism? The dynamics of a group comes from people's individual temperaments. Phillipa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Audra1976 at aol.com Fri Jan 17 22:42:55 2003 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 17:42:55 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] What will Dumbledore tell Harry? Message-ID: <163.1a4d0466.2b59e0ef@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50000 In a message dated 17/01/2003 17:04:57 Eastern Standard Time, andrewhogue2001 at yahoo.com writes: > Any thoughts about what Dumbledore will have to tell Harry? I think "everything" could include what his parents' jobs were and why Voldemort had no problem killing his dad, but said that his mother "needn't have died," and *why* Voldemort wanted to kill Harry in the first place. In the conversation in the hospital wing at the end of PS/SS. Harry asks why Voldemort wants to kill him and Dumbledore answers that he can't tell him now, but he will know one day when he is older. As for what the reason is, I know JKR will probably throw us for a loop and come up with something we never thought of (if that's possible), but I favor the theory that killing Harry has something to do with the immortality Voldemort has always been seeking. When Harry has the Philosopher's Stone, Voldemort implies that if Harry gives him the Stone and joins him, that Voldemort wouldn't kill him. "Better save your own life and join me," he says. This could have been a lie, but I think it does mean that if Voldemort had the Stone, and therefore could have eternal life, he wouldn't have to kill Harry. Audra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kristen at sanderson-web.com Fri Jan 17 22:45:47 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (gkjpo ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 22:45:47 -0000 Subject: Sorry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50001 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arcum42 " wrote: > > Well, I decided to approach it statistically, out of curiosity, and > searched the first four books for the word "sorry". So far, the word > sorry has actually been spoken in the books 100 times (Only counting > in actual dialogue), and 34 of those times it was spoken by Harry, > making him by far the most likely to be the one quoted. > > Hermione comes second, with 7 times. And Ron & Hagrid tie for third > with 6 each. Interestingly, Draco comes in for 4th place, having said > sorry 4 times, > and not meant it once... Well I can certainly appreciate your logical approach!!! However, to throw in some twisted logic (I'm a software engineer, so I like that), if it was important or key enough to be mentioned as part of the teaser, it would probably be the least likely person to say it. My vote is for Snape to be sorry. I'm guessing that he's not one of the people in your statistics - or certainly not near the top of the list. Kristen From metal_tiara at hotmail.com Fri Jan 17 22:49:46 2003 From: metal_tiara at hotmail.com (sophineclaire ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 22:49:46 -0000 Subject: Sorry? In-Reply-To: <20030117191149.15441.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50002 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ava Gordon wrote: > "melclaros " wrote:Personally, I'm more interested in the word "sacked" from that card. > > > > Well, sure, we all know who immediately comes to mind, and the reasons why one might suspect him to be sacked, at least for sake of appearance, and convenience (so he can go roam about doing what he's supposed to be doing). And Ron's hopeful theory in CoS that 'maybe he's been sacked" could be - foreshadowing? Dumbledore was temporarily sacked in COS. But, who knows. -SophineClaire From jmmears at comcast.net Fri Jan 17 22:53:11 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 22:53:11 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging In-Reply-To: <13086129358.20030117114458@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50003 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > See, I don't think we'll be having any serious dating any > time soon. > > Things are still at the very beginning, with nobody having > admitted anything, yet, and the way romance has been a very, > very small part of the books, I could imagine it taking > quite a while longer before Ron and Hermione actually do > date. I tend to agree with you here. I suspect the whole H/R romantic thing to return to the back burner in most, if not all of OoP. I just don't think that either of them is ready to deal with each other in that context, and that Ron in particular would *much* rather not even have these icky feelings about Hermione ;). > And Ron's "jealous nature" only came into play because there > was something to be jealous *about*. Exactly. If there had been no Yule Ball (and therefore no date with Krum), Ron could have continued to maintain the same sort of ignorant bliss he was living in before he was forced to realize that Hermione *is* a girl. > > Friday, January 17, 2003, 11:22:47 AM, Penny wrote: > >> Maybe it's the feminist in me that gets all riled up about R/H. It's > >> been my experience that many R/H'ers have a tendency to focus on Ron's > >> feelings and conclude that because Ron likes her, it's a given that > >> there will be a romance. "But, it's *obvious* that Ron liiiiiiikes > >> her." To which I say a big giant: "So. What." It takes two. Absolutely true. I should point out now that I am in no way a vehement R/H (or any other) shipper. It's just that H/H seem rather incompatable to me (aside from all the blatent R/H stuff in GoF). I fear that Hermione could never really be happy with someone like Harry who so often seems to either ignore her almost constant advice, or evade her completely until he's really in trouble and needs her to help him. He even seems to be using Ron as a shield to deflect her intense nature at times. That would have to get frustrating for her, and I'd actually enjoy her telling him off for it at some point. He just doesn't seem to be able to appreciate her efforts on his behalf sufficiently for me to be able to forsee a satisfactory romantic relationship developing. Jo Serenadust From sjnhp at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jan 17 22:59:02 2003 From: sjnhp at yahoo.co.uk (Simon Nickerson) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 22:59:02 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] more speculation In-Reply-To: <65.73ef808.2b57b03a@aol.com> References: <65.73ef808.2b57b03a@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50004 In message <65.73ef808.2b57b03a at aol.com>, srsiriusblack at aol.com writes >After having been kept fully awake in thought on our newly released lines... >What if Dumbledore is actually James' father or grandfather. - The latter >more likely as to age. I personally don't believe this theory. Firstly, if it were true, then Dumbledore must have been lying to McGonagall when he said (in the first chapter of PS) "I've come to bring Harry to his aunt and uncle. They're the only family he has left now". I have no reason to mistrust anything Dumbledore has said, so I give him the benefit of the doubt. Moreover, if Harry were related to Dumbledore, then I don't really see how it could fail to be common knowledge, especially with such superb guardians of the truth as Rita Skeeter. As such, we would have heard about it before. >DD has always been a paternal figure to Harry- even more so than Sirius or >Remus who played paternal roles. Even so, this does not necessarily point to Dumbledore being a blood relative of Harry's. Just my ha'pennyworth, -- Simon Nickerson "I went on the Underground - " "Really?" said Mr Weasley eagerly. "Were there escapators?" From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 23:14:55 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 23:14:55 -0000 Subject: more speculation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50005 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Simon Nickerson wrote: > In message <65.73ef808.2b57b03a at a...>, srsiriusblack at a... writes > >After having been kept fully awake in thought on our newly > >released lines... What if Dumbledore is actually James' father > >or grandfather. - The latter more likely as to age. > -- - - - - - - -- > I personally don't believe this theory. > > Firstly, if it were true, then Dumbledore must have been lying to > McGonagall when he said (in the first chapter of PS) "...his aunt > and uncle. They're the only family he has left now". > > Even so, this does not necessarily point to Dumbledore being a blood > relative of Harry's. > > Just my ha'pennyworth, > > -- > Simon Nickerson bboy_mn: I think there is some relationship between Harry and Dumbledore, but not direct line of decendancy. The best I can come up with is that there are several branches to the Gryffidor family tree. Dumbledore is in one, and Harry is in another. Since Dumbledore seems to have no childred, and there is no mention that his brother is married, that means the end of his branch of the family tree; no more decendance. So the next nearest 'branch' to a direct decendant of Gryffindor is the Potter branch. The distance in blood relartion between them could be pretty great; branches on the opposite side of the tree. So Dumbledore doesn't really qualify as a blood relative; at least not compared to Harry's mother's sister. The alternate theory is that Harry is the chosen heir to Gryffindor; the chosen one, the magic child, selected not by blood but by destiny to carry on the noble history of Gryffindor. Then again, maybe not. bboy_mn From metal_tiara at hotmail.com Fri Jan 17 23:21:50 2003 From: metal_tiara at hotmail.com (sophineclaire ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 23:21:50 -0000 Subject: Witchcraft and Wizardry: What do they teach at Hogwarts???? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50006 I've been thinking about this for a couple of days. Hogwarts has the sub-title of being a school for Witchcraft and Wizardry. Now, if magic was all inclusive wouldn't Hogwarts be subtitled as a school of Magic, that being what everyone is learning there. Or is there more to it. Granted, this coule just be a way to say 'Witches do witchcraft while Wizards do wizardry but it's all the same, except in title' that possibly dates back to before the founders. Or back in the days when there were sections of magic that were a considered to be a man's domain and others that were placed strictly off limits to them by women. Or maybe there are forms of magic that can really only be performed by one sex or the other, if you remove what their society might say. What was so special about Lily's so-called-save-my-baby charm that only she could do?? Why not James or Sirius or Remus or Peter?. Is it because she is his mother? she's a female? I believe this points to something. Maybe you can call it Sex Ed, but maybe Witches have the upper hand to men when it comes to magic. But that's going on a tangent. But why call a refer to a school as teaching Witchcraft and Wizardry if there isn't some sort of difference between males and females that require that sort of classifaction. Though, as I said, I could be a purely historic thing. -SophineClaire ( Who's made herself really confused and FIgures that no matter how Hogwarts is organized, Hermione is going to go on a hunger strike if she's not allowed to take a course that she's barely interested in.) From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Fri Jan 17 23:50:14 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 23:50:14 -0000 Subject: Ron, Hermione, and self esteem (some SHIP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50007 Pippin quoted Penny on Hermione and Ron: > > >> She's not shown much interest so far in pumping up > his self-esteem (low already)and he isn't actually going to shine > or come into his own if he's constantly being overshadowed by > both his best friend the Hero and his girlfriend the > Over-Achiever.<< and then said: > > Besides, why does it have to be Hermione's job to improve her > boy-friend's self-esteem? Sure, she has the ability to be a > nurturing person, but why does her romantic interest have to be > focused on that? If she needs to baby someone--well, that's > what babies are for, IMNSHO. > Well, I think it's Hermione's 'job' to (try to) improve Ron's self- esteem because he's her friend. I agree with Penny that if she were to consistently pull down Ron's self-esteem it would both undermine their existing friendship and prevent the development of any kind of healthy partnership. However I also believe that if two people are tackling this sort of issue willingly, then it doesn't need to be fully resolved for the relationship to develop in other ways. I see both Hermione and Ron as looking to the other to provide some (self-)esteem and failing to get as much as they want because the other is also needy. Especially in POA where Crookshanks and Scabbers are surrogates for their owners: both see the attitude of the other to their pet as a revelation of their attitude to them. In GOF I think both of them are showing some signs of growing out of this (Ron only after the ball, of course), but I think it's at the root of their difficulties whether as friends or partners and they need to resolve it whatever happens. Neither has left it behind by the end of GOF, despite the improvements. Where I think I part company with Penny is that I think it means something that Ron and Hermione keep coming back for more unsatisfaction. Why? Is it just an unhealthy co-dependence? I think the member of the trio with the biggest self-esteem issues is Harry, though. He doesn't actively look to his friends for it though, so it doesn't lead to as much conflict. Notice how ready he is in the holidays to believe they really have forgotten him in COS - and he doesn't complain: he just gets on quietly with the business of despairing. How the only thing he thinks he's good at is Quidditch, even in GOF. How he follows Ron's lead in selecting third year options (electives) because has no perception of his own abilities. The lack of conflict (most of the time!) between Harry and the other two isn't necessarily indicative of a fundamentally more healthy situation, or one conducive to romance, IMO. I'm tempted to wonder if there's some sort of symbolic significance in the fact that (in POA) while Hermione and Ron's pets are consistently close by them, on display and in conflict, Harry's is out of sight and distant in the owlery, and hardly interacts with Scabbers, Crookshanks, Ron, or Hermione. Likewise that Ron gets a new pet. Pullman HDM fans, any thoughts? David From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sat Jan 18 00:00:27 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 16:00:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Witchcraft and Wizardry: What do they teach at Hogwarts???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030118000027.62453.qmail@web40501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50008 -SophineClaire asked: >>I've been thinking about this for a couple of days. Hogwarts has the sub-title of being a school for Witchcraft and Wizardry. Now, if magic was all inclusive wouldn't Hogwarts be subtitled as a school of Magic, that being what everyone is learning there. But why call a refer to a school as teaching Witchcraft and Wizardry if there isn't some sort of difference between males and females that require that sort of classifaction. Though, as I said, I could be a purely historic thing.<< I think it's just a historical thing. A 1000 years ago witchcraft probably consisted of potion-making (and maybe some other things), or it's at least a common stereotype. Wizardry probably implied something else back then. As time went by, witches and wizards all started to do all kinds of magic, but the name of the school didn't change - tradition. That's all IMO of course. Regards, Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Audra1976 at aol.com Sat Jan 18 00:06:14 2003 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 19:06:14 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Witchcraft and Wizardry: What do they teach at Hogwarts???? Message-ID: <97.32b8563b.2b59f476@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50009 Great question! I've only read a few fantasy series (mostly a horror and sci-fi buff), but I am reminded of the "Wheel of Time" series by Robert Jordan. It's been a while, but in that series, IIRC, males drew upon a different power source that females for their magic. Saidin and Saidar, I think they were called? But they were like a ying-yang. Two sides of the same coin. JKR may have something like that in mind. Or it could be that when you think of a "wizard" you picture a male (like Merlin), and "witch" is associated with females, even though there are male witches. Maybe she should of just called it Hogwarts School of Sorcery--you can be a sorcerer or a sorceress. ;) Audra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kristen at sanderson-web.com Sat Jan 18 00:14:27 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (gkjpo ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 00:14:27 -0000 Subject: How does book five *end* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50010 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve " wrote: > bboy_mn: > > I don't think Dumbledore lowering his hands and asking Harry to sit > down so he can tell him everything is THE last line in the book. I > think the real implication is that it occurs near the end of the book. > > Typical book ends with Harry in the hospital (or Dumbledore's office), > and he and Dumbledore having a heart to heart. Then we return to our > regularly scheduled program and they wrap up the school year get on > the train and go home. The end of the book is alway Harry rejoining > the Dursleys. > > So NEAR but not AT the end of the book. I wonder. JKR has been quoted as saying that there are things coming with the Dursley's that we might not expect (would this be them being unexpectedly loyal to Harry - something we REALLY wouldn't expect? Maybe they'll be SORRY for their past treatment of him! :). Maybe this is the book where the cycle is broken and Harry doesn't have the Dursleys to go back to! After all, if Mrs. Figg is exposed and we find out all about her, does that mean that Harry's protection at the Dursleys is broken? Kristen From sholden at flash.net Fri Jan 17 23:22:52 2003 From: sholden at flash.net (SHolden) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 17:22:52 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50011 > > Friday, January 17, 2003, 11:22:47 AM, Penny wrote: > >> Maybe it's the feminist in me that gets all riled up about R/H. It's > >> been my experience that many R/H'ers have a tendency to focus on Ron's > >> feelings and conclude that because Ron likes her, it's a given that > >> there will be a romance. "But, it's *obvious* that Ron liiiiiiikes > >> her." To which I say a big giant: "So. What." It takes two. Serenadust wrote: Absolutely true. I should point out now that I am in no way a vehement R/H (or any other) shipper. It's just that H/H seem rather incompatable to me (aside from all the blatent R/H stuff in GoF). I fear that Hermione could never really be happy with someone like Harry who so often seems to either ignore her almost constant advice, or evade her completely until he's really in trouble and needs her to help him. He even seems to be using Ron as a shield to deflect her intense nature at times. That would have to get frustrating for her, and I'd actually enjoy her telling him off for it at some point. He just doesn't seem to be able to appreciate her efforts on his behalf sufficiently for me to be able to forsee a satisfactory romantic relationship developing. Me: Penny, I completely agree on the big giant "So what!" It does take two. Who cares if Ron likes Hermione, so far Hermione actions lean more toward affection for Harry than Ron. What I really fear about R/Hr is that Ron will use Hermione's worry about Harry against her. We've already seen Ron do it and he knows how much Hermione worries about Harry. Anytime an arguement/spat they have isn't going his way, he'll drag Harry's name through it to force her into submission. That's a scary thought to me that he does this. To me it shows that he's incapable to hold an argument with her, and if it's not going his way he knows the one way to get it into his corner, use Harry against her. Sara [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dehavensangel at hotmail.com Fri Jan 17 23:55:43 2003 From: dehavensangel at hotmail.com (shinesse ) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 23:55:43 -0000 Subject: What will Dumbledore tell Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50012 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard " wrote: > "Dumbledore lowered his hands and surveyed Harry through his > half-moon glasses. "It is time," he said, "for me to tell you what I > should have told you five years ago, Harry. Please sit down. I am > going to tell you everything." (Source. www.bn.com) > > Any thoughts about what Dumbledore will have to tell Harry? > > "Richard" I have a few theories on what DD will finally tell Harry. Here it goes. 1. That either DD or LV is related to him. 2. Of course the reason why LV is trying to kill him. I think its because LV was told that Harry would become a powerful wizard that would destroy him. So LV wants to kill Harry before he has a chance to grow and become that powerful wizard. 3. His parents jobs after they left Hogwarts. Pretty much more background on James and Lilly. Which pretty much goes along with my theory number 1. I think LV didn't want to kill Lily because she was related to him. I just had a wicked idea. What if Lily is some how related to LV and James was some how related to DD and that is why Harry is so powerful. (a really believe Harry has to be the heir of Slytherin as well. In SS and CoS their was so much made of this.) 4. What happened in those missing 24 hours from the time Hagrid picked him up to the time he was dropped off at the Dursely's. ~Dehavensangel~ From sevothtarte at gmx.net Fri Jan 17 22:16:23 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 23:16:23 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron's contribution (was SHIP: JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50013 Pippin: >Another talent Ron doesn't get credit for is leadership. It may be >a result of movie contamination that people forget Wizard Chess >is more than a game of strategy. It's a game of negotiation, like >D&D, contract bridge or Diplomacy...you have to persuade your >pieces to co-operate with each other and you. Ron, Harry has >noted, is good at that. That's a rather weak point, I think. Ron's pieces trust him because they've known him for a long time and he's a good player. Neither counts for Harry when he's playing with Seamus' or his own pieces. Also, the pieces might argue, but they still obey in the end no matter how much they trust you or not. Most of all, these are enchanted chess pieces, nothing more. Their "personalities" are far from being as complex as a human, so being a good wizard chess player says nothing about your leadership when it comes to humans. Not that leadership in battle and leadership in society are that similar anyway. Torsten From sevothtarte at gmx.net Fri Jan 17 22:11:11 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 23:11:11 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House Points (1k years of Slytherin vs. Gryffindor? ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50014 >BBOY_MN: (on a new topic) >Speaking of the House Cup, I've often wondered if all the houses >starte with zero point and go from there, or if the all start with say >300 point and go up and down from that point. > >Condsidering that the final house points tends to be between 300 and >500, starting at zero, each house would have to win an awful lot of >points to reach 400. I just don't think we see that may point being >won during the course of the school year. So I'm inclinded to think >they start at some number (200 or 300) and the total rises and falls >from there. Well, it's not difficult win an awful lot. Look at Lupin's Boggart lesson, how many points Gryffindor won just there. And remember how easy it was to get points from Lockhart. ;) Also, since you can get points for correct answers, it's likely points can be won for good O.W.L.s and N.E.W.T.s. After thinking the whole thing through, I'm wondering about the tendency for the Cup to go to either Slytherin or Gryffindor... True, they are more successfull at Quidditch, but like I said, the correct answers speak for Ravenclaw, and Hufflepuff's the house least likely to screw up and lose points for rule-breaking. At first glance at least. Torsten From debmclain at yahoo.com Sat Jan 18 01:11:10 2003 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie McLain ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 01:11:10 -0000 Subject: Harry Heir to Gryff WAS Re: more speculation Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50015 "Steve " wrote: > I think there is some relationship between Harry and Dumbledore, but > not direct line of decendancy. >...edited.. > The alternate theory is that Harry is the chosen heir to Gryffindor; > the chosen one, the magic child, selected not by blood but by destiny to carry on the noble history of Gryffindor. > > Then again, maybe not. I am a firm believer that Harry is the Heir to Gryffindor (perhaps Slytherin too). But what I can't reconcile is, if Harry is, then why doesn't everyone know about it? Wouldn't Rita say something in the paper..."Harry Potter, heir of Gryffindor, regularly cries into his pillow every night over his parents' deaths..." I think JK is going to throw a curve ball here. When things seem one way, something comes out of left field.. (Scabbers is a what??) Maybe that's where Slytherin comes in. Oh, I don't know. All this is conjecture. I just want to know the truth!! June 21st is too far away! I also don't think Dumbledore will tell everything... I mean, he will, but some of it will be in riddles that we will discover the answers to in the following books (after JK makes us think one thing and then proves us wrong, again). -Debbie Getting frustrated by her eagerness to know the truth From debmclain at yahoo.com Sat Jan 18 01:33:31 2003 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie McLain ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 01:33:31 -0000 Subject: Harry's Summer Job Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50016 Does anyone think JK will let Harry have a summer job once he turns 16? It makes sense to me. It will get Harry out of the house, and then he can start buying his own clothes (not to mention pay them rent). I have repeatedly thought that Harry would get a job a the local corner drugstore (hence, Dursley's don't have to drive him to work), called Black's Pharmacy. It would be run by a man called PapaJoe by everyone, who, in book 7, obviously turns out to be Sirus's father - and one of the other wizards (besides Arabella) who is protecting Harry during the summer. PapaJoe is driven by his desire to wipe away what his son did to Harry's parents, not knowing Sirus is innocent, until Harry reunites them in book 7. And, of course, Harry mets a muggle girl when she buys gum from him, and falls in love. Of course, she ends up being a seer (after another seer is killed by V's people, she is given their power). Hmmm... I suppose I could write a fanfic about it, but I don't have time with the baby. :-) And no, I don't think the flowerbed incident is Harry doing gardening work for a summer job. He'd be fired for "laying" down on the job. Hmmm...I suppose one of the reasons Harry wouldn't get a summer job, is JK would have to write a lot more regarding the summertime, since he would be integrated with more relationships from fellow employees. Sorry about the huge tangent, about possible storylines, but I just had to get it out of my system. -Debbie who is very excited about going to Nimbus and is hoping JK will just drop by to sign books From siskiou at earthlink.net Sat Jan 18 01:36:52 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 17:36:52 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <22107247180.20030117173652@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 50017 Hi, Friday, January 17, 2003, 3:22:52 PM, SHolden wrote: > Anytime an arguement/spat they have > isn't > going his way, he'll drag Harry's name through it to force her into > submission. Why do you think Ron will do this? I haven't seen a pattern of this kind of behavior, but maybe I've missed it. "Force her into submission" sounds pretty strong! And do you really see Hermione having such a weak character that she will let anyone manipulate her in this way and stay friends with him? She would have to be awfully stuck on Ron to continue a friendship with him in that situation, and you say you feel she likes Harry better than Ron anyhow. This doesn't make any sense to me. And Hermione has proven to go against her friends before, so I don't see her cave in to Ron against her will. In fact, I see Hermione as plenty "strong willed" herself and needing a partner who's able to speak his mind and not keep quiet and give in to avoid conflict. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From debmclain at yahoo.com Sat Jan 18 01:39:23 2003 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie McLain ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 01:39:23 -0000 Subject: Sorry? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50018 "gkjpo " wrote: However, to > throw in some twisted logic (I'm a software engineer, so I like > that), if it was important or key enough to be mentioned as part of > the teaser, it would probably be the least likely person to say it. > > My vote is for Snape to be sorry. I'm guessing that he's not one of > the people in your statistics - or certainly not near the top of the list. Me: I think it's Dumbledore ... "Harry, I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this, but Hagrid is dead." -Debbie From snorth at ucla.edu Sat Jan 18 01:52:25 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 17:52:25 -0800 Subject: Witchcraft and Wizardry: What do they teach at Hogwarts???? References: Message-ID: <01fa01c2be94$41890050$0100a8c0@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 50019 SophineClaire: > might say. What was so special about Lily's so-called-save-my-baby > charm that only she could do?? Why not James or Sirius or Remus or > Peter?. Is it because she is his mother? she's a female? I believe > this points to something. Maybe you can call it Sex Ed, but maybe > Witches have the upper hand to men when it comes to magic. Me: Personally. I think you hit the true answer dead on with "Is it because she is his mother?". Mind you, I am a 20 year old male, but it seems to me that there is a universal acceptance that a mother's love is love in it's purest form. I know your mother and father should love you about the same, but there's just more connection between mother and child than father and child. That's why Lily was able to use the magic that anyone else would have probably failed at. Honestly, I don't think it has anything to do with females being stronger than males (nor is the opposite case true). I think 'Hogwart's School of Witchcraft and Wizardry' essentially denotes that it's coed- male magic users being termed 'Wizards' and females being termed 'Witches'. If it was just 'Hogwart's School of Wizardry,' I think it would be an all boys school. The term Warlock is bandied about in the books, but I'm not sure how JKR uses it. If you subscribe to high fantasy (or played D&D, *grins*), the term Wizard is unisex, and Witch (and Warlock, the male equivalent of a witch) is a different type of magic user all together, along with sorcerors, enchanters, necromancers, etc. etc. -Scott PS I apologize if this was sent twice, I stopped it mid send to attribute the the original poster. From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sat Jan 18 02:02:53 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 18:02:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030118020253.84252.qmail@web40507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50020 > > Friday, January 17, 2003, 11:22:47 AM, Penny wrote: > >> Maybe it's the feminist in me that gets all riled up about R/H. It's > >> been my experience that many R/H'ers have a tendency to focus on Ron's > >> feelings and conclude that because Ron likes her, it's a given that > >> there will be a romance. "But, it's *obvious* that Ron liiiiiiikes > >> her." To which I say a big giant: "So. What." It takes two. Sara Penny, I completely agree on the big giant "So what!" It does take two. Who cares if Ron likes Hermione, so far Hermione actions lean more toward affection for Harry than Ron. Me: OK, I never thought I'd get into this debate, because it seems to me to be rather pointless - the kids are 14 years old and there's absolutely no way to guess what might happen to them in the future. Yes, they all have outstanding characters, all have good and bad traits, but we don't really know yet which ones will develop and which will be pushed back as they grow up. I really have to disagree with Sara on this - "so far Hermione actions lean more toward affection for Harry than Ron." On what are you basing this? The fact that she kisses him on the cheek at the end of GoF can mean practically anything - the most obvious reason being, she's concerned for him and she worries how he's going to get through summer. Yes, Hr is nice to Harry and they don't argue as much (because Harry isn't as hotheaded as Ron), but that alone doesn't mean that Hr has a romantic interest in Harry or has more affection towards him. Then, the fact that Krum says that Hermione talks a lot about Harry - I won't repeat any of the arguments R/Hr use, but there are lots of explanations for that, asied from "Hermione likes (as in "likes-likes") Harry a lot." I like R/Hr more (you noticed, huh? ) because of the turn their relationship has taken in GoF. Those tension bits were really nice to read. ;) I have a question, BTW - why doesn't anyone analyse that phrase of Hermione's: "Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not as a last resort!" Could that show that Hermione wanted to go to the ball with Ron? Could it be that she Likes him? And another thing... Yes, relationships take two. But Harry hasn't shown any interest in Hermione yet, either. After that fight scene in the common room: "Harry didn't say anything. He liked being back on speaking terms with Ron too much to speak his mind right now - but he somehow thought that Hermione had gotten the point much better than Ron had." No jealousy at all. So, what do you think? Maria, who read this very funny fic and recommends it to people: http://www.sugarquill.net/read.php?storyid=1084&chapno=1 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From helenawhit at earthlink.net Sat Jan 18 02:08:38 2003 From: helenawhit at earthlink.net (ameliacrafter ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 02:08:38 -0000 Subject: Wands and those who lost them Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50021 I've been trying to remember, and am not sure: 1-Hagrid-His wand was broken when he was expelled 50+ years ago. It's assumed the pieces are in his umbrella, I believe. Has he officially used a wand since he was cleared at the end of Chamber of Secrets? I wonder about him some time taking the wizarding equivalent of a US Muggle GED (equivalency exam for those that didn't finish high school). 2-Sirius-I assume his wand was taken when he was sent to Azkaban. Have we seen him do any wand-magic? Apparition and the animagus transformation don't (I believe) require a wand. Have we seen him using a wand? 3-Voldemort-I'll skip him, since I've seen discussion already on 'how did he get his wand back?' Any info would be appreciated, partly just to find out, partly as research for my fanfic in progress. Thanks all! Amelia Crafter From Heleen at ptdprolog.net Sat Jan 18 02:10:20 2003 From: Heleen at ptdprolog.net (Heleen Greenwald) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 21:10:20 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House Points (1k years of Slytherin vs. Gryffindor? ) References: Message-ID: <01da01c2be96$c1382810$a500a8c0@boghouse> No: HPFGUIDX 50022 ----- Original Message ----- >BBOY_MN: (on a new topic) >Speaking of the House Cup, I've often wondered if all the houses >starte with zero point and go from there, or if the all start with say >300 point and go up and down from that point. > >Condsidering that the final house points tends to be between 300 and >500, starting at zero, each house would have to win an awful lot of >points to reach 400. I just don't think we see that may point being >won during the course of the school year. So I'm inclinded to think >they start at some number (200 or 300) and the total rises and falls >from there. Well, it's not difficult win an awful lot. Look at Lupin's Boggart lesson, how many points Gryffindor won just there. And remember how easy it was to get points from Lockhart. ;) Also, since you can get points for correct answers, it's likely points can be won for good O.W.L.s and N.E.W.T.s. After thinking the whole thing through, I'm wondering about the tendency for the Cup to go to either Slytherin or Gryffindor... True, they are more successfull at Quidditch, but like I said, the correct answers speak for Ravenclaw, and Hufflepuff's the house least likely to screw up and lose points for rule-breaking. At first glance at least. Torsten ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Also, aren't there supposed to be about 1000 students total at Hogwarts? so with each student getting 5 points here and 10 points there, it would add up by the end of the year. Phillipa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From flamingstarchows at att.net Sat Jan 18 03:44:50 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 21:44:50 -0600 Subject: SHIP: JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging References: Message-ID: <003501c2bea3$f9ccf220$4b09570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 50023 ----- Original Message ----- bboy_mn who thinks there will /appear/ to be something between H/H and in some small way, especially if Harry is sad and in need of some comfort, there may even be something small and romantic-like to their relationship. But eventually that will straighten out, and Hermione and Ron will get together, but I also see that ending in a 'let's just be friends' kind of way. Kids this age 'testing' relationship, and will frequently be going steady with a different new 'one true love' every month. In the end, I don't see anyone in a serious romantic relationship with anyone. But I do see the deep loving friendship growing to an even deep and more intimate level. Gradually changing from 'playground' friends to deep adult friends. *** me: This is where I see it going as well. I don't think Ron really knew how he felt until he saw Hermione with Victor Krum. Harry has been infatuated with Cho since the first time he laid eyes on her on the Quidditch field and has never thought of Hermione as anything but a friend. They will all probably end up the best of friends (assuming they all survive), but each with someone entirely different. Just because I think Ron and Hermione will end up together briefly, I don't think it will last. ~Cathy~ From celticwolfdruidess at yahoo.com Sat Jan 18 04:30:42 2003 From: celticwolfdruidess at yahoo.com (Cassiana ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 04:30:42 -0000 Subject: Arabella Figg and the female DADA teacher In-Reply-To: <9r2pnu+cvuh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50024 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, doseylel at a... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mirzam Black" wrote: > > tara diane wrote: > > > > > > JK says that we'll be seeing Arabella in the 5th > > > book and find out all about her. She also > > > mentions a female DADA teacher. Could Mrs. Figg > > > turn out to be the new DADA teacher? Assuming > > > she's part of the protection provided while > > > Harry's with the Dursley's, she must have some > > > knowledge and/or practice with the dark arts. > > > > > > > There has been lots of discussion about Arabella and DADA. But I > > still don't believe in it. And why? > > > > In the end of the Goblet of Fire Dumbledore begin to call his group > > for order. Arabella Figg was one of them. This group may have > > something else to do than teach children in Hogwarts, I believe. > . > > > > OK, who is the teacher, if it is not Arabella. My guess is, that > the > > teacher is a new character like always and she is the one who is > > going to brake hearts. In my theory, both Severus and Sirius are > > going to fall in love with her.. > > > > //Mirzam > > My thoughts exactly. As though there isn't enough animosity between > Snape and Sirius already, throw a woman in between them ???? > If she turns out to be a blond, I hope Snape gets her. Otherwise, I > root for Sirius. > > Leslie No, no...I think the DADA teacher is Fleur. Break out Goblet of Fire again, fellas, and take a look at "I am 'oping to get a job at 'Ogwarts." Eh? Make sense? Personally I would hate to see this happen...Snape, beautiful noble Snape, fall for some whoreish wannabe human...not only that but have Sirius all rampant on him and unreasonable...that spells disaster. Pedophilish as it may sound, I think Snape and Hermione make a better pair...after all in the book there's on ly a 20 year gap. Not too terribly much! Shalimar From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Jan 18 04:44:27 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 04:44:27 -0000 Subject: I Don't See a Problem with OGG Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50025 Okay, nobody else is posting so, let me ask a few question about OGG - The GroundsKeeper. Someone in the OT group need a link describing the diffences between the UK and US editions of the book, so I looked it up in the Lexicon and gave them the link, which is how I happened to be reading about the various unsolved mysteries in the HP series. Obviously, from my subject heading, this has to do with OGG - the GroundKeeper as his mention in the book relates to Arther and Molly's age. Frankly, I never saw any controversy here. Although, the Lexicon has it built up to the point where they speculate there are Two Timelines running. http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/puzzles2.html To read the article, select the above ling and go to the subject heading "When did Arthur and Molly Weasley attend Hogwarts?" A brief quote from the article- " ...Molly Weasley fondly recalls a man named Ogg being the groundskeeper when she went to Hogwarts. Now she's older than Sirius and Lupin, granted, but not so much older that she would have gone to Hogwarts before Hagrid and Tom Riddle, which was fifty years ago. ..." I don't understand where they get the idea that Arther and Molly can't have gone to Hogwarts around the same time as Hagrid. Hagrid, as of the current book, is approximately 64 years old. To a muggle that's old, but when you consider that Wizards live twice as long as Muggles, that would make Hargrid early middle aged. [I'm assuming that a wizard has a lifespan of 200 in the same sense that a muggles has a potential lifespan of 100. Wizard could live longer but for illustration the 100 and 200 year figures make the math easy.] So, in Muggle years, based on my assumption above, Hagrid is 32. I don't see any reason to think that Arther and Molly couldn't have been in their Senior year of school or perhaps just out of school when Hagrid was expelled. That would make the Weasley's 4 to 6 years older than Hagrid. Let's assume the larger number (64 + 6 = 70). Relative to a muggle lifespan, that would make Molly and Arther about 35. Still very young wizards. I quess I don't understand why this person thinks that Molly and Arther couldn't be 70. Given the extremely harsh punishment Arther got when he and Molly were out until 4am for a nighttime stroll. I suspect their time at Hogwarts was indeed a long time ago. Seventy, to us, is pretty old, but that's very young to a wizard. If we estimate Bill's age at roughly 30 in GoF, that would imply Molly and Arther had their first child at age 40, which is not that unrealistic even for a muggle, and they would have been age 20 relative to a muggle lifespan. I keep searching for the inconsistency, or the controversy, and I can't find it. It all makes sense to me. Where is the a passage in the book that implys that Molly and Arther couldn't be 70 years young? bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Jan 18 04:56:47 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 04:56:47 -0000 Subject: Wands and those who lost them In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50026 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ameliacrafter " wrote: > I've been trying to remember, and am not sure: > 1-Hagrid- Has he (Hagrid) officially used a wand since he was > cleared at the end of Chamber of Secrets? > -end this part- bboy_mn: We are tangling with definitions here. Hagrid has many time performed magic, which assumes the use of a wand, with Dumbledores authorization. Of course, Dumbledore conveniently never bothers to wonder how this is possible without a wand. But he has never been Officially allowed to use magic. Authorized=yes; Official=no. -bboy_mn-end this part- > 2-Sirius-Have we seen him do any wand-magic? ... Have we seen him > using a wand? > -end this part- bboy_mn: When Harry and Hermione enter the bedroom in the Shrieking Shack, Sirius has Ron's wand and uses it to disarm Harry and Hermione. So the answer is yes, we have seen him use a wand; someone else's wand. You are right, he does not have a wand of his own. -bboy_mn-end this part- > 3-Voldemort-I'll skip him, since I've seen discussion already on > 'how did he get his wand back?' > > Any info would be appreciated, partly just to find out, partly as > research for my fanfic in progress. > > Thanks all! > > Amelia Crafter Hope that helps. bboy_mn From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 18 05:29:31 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 21:29:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] I Don't See a Problem with OGG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030118052931.25120.qmail@web40513.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50027 --- "Steve " wrote: > > I quess I don't understand why this person thinks > that Molly and > Arther couldn't be 70. I have trouble seeing the Weasley's as 70. I don't think you can look at it as half muggle age. Because I believe after Cos JKR said that Snape is 35. Since Snape was in the same year as Lily and James...and Harry is 12 in CoS...that means that Lily had him when she was 21...so if you did this whole "half muggle age" thing...that would be equivalent to Lily giving birth at age 10.5. So, unless because of their longer lifespan, wizard have more childbearing years, it's illogical to say that Molly Weasley is 70, because that would mean she had Ginny and Ron in her late 50s, and her first children in her late forties and early 50s. Since she and Arthur were dating at Hogwarts, I find it hard to believe they would wait almost 30 years to have children. My guess would be that they had Bill in their mid 20s, putting them in their mid to late forties. Sorry if I lost anyone in that...I know it's a little confusing. ~Kathryn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From Teachgeni at aol.com Sat Jan 18 04:55:09 2003 From: Teachgeni at aol.com (Teachgeni at aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 23:55:09 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 2428 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50028 This is how and why Harry will get a new pet, and without a doubt that will be one death that is difficult for JKR to write, and equally emotionally difficult for us to read. **The death of his pet would certainly cause Harry sorrow, but I somehow doubt that this is the 'difficult death to write about' Rowling "speaks" of. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Sat Jan 18 06:40:06 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42 ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 06:40:06 -0000 Subject: Sorry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50029 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Debbie McLain " wrote: > "gkjpo " wrote: > However, to > > throw in some twisted logic (I'm a software engineer, so I like > > that), if it was important or key enough to be mentioned as part of > > the teaser, it would probably be the least likely person to say it. > > > > My vote is for Snape to be sorry. I'm guessing that he's not one > of > > the people in your statistics - or certainly not near the top of > the list. > > > Me: > I think it's Dumbledore ... "Harry, I'm sorry to be the one to tell > you this, but Hagrid is dead." > > -Debbie Well, in my statistics, Snape has actually said the word "Sorry" twice, and Dumbledore once. Sirus Black, OTOH, has *never* said sorry in the series yet, and even has something he really ought to apologise for... --Arcum From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Jan 18 06:51:18 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 06:51:18 -0000 Subject: I Don't See a Problem with OGG In-Reply-To: <20030118052931.25120.qmail@web40513.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50030 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kathryn Wolber wrote: > > --- "Steve " > wrote: > > > > I quess I don't understand why this person thinks > > that Molly and > > Arther couldn't be 70. > > I have trouble seeing the Weasley's as 70. I don't > think you can look at it as half muggle age. > > ...edited.. > > Sorry if I lost anyone in that...I know it's a little > confusing. > ~Kathryn bboy_mn: You have to separate the 'growing' process from the 'aging' process. Harry and Ron aren't aging, they are growing. That is to say their bodies are still growing into adulthood. I believe JKR has even said or at least indicated that people grow normally until they reach their adult bodies in their late teen, and the the aging process slows down. (Can someone give me a reference to that, either for it or against it?) Since the aging process slows, a 70 year old muggle is much older than a 70 wizard. And remember that the age thing 100yrs/200yrs is a relative thing, not an absolute fact. It serves as an illustration of where people are in their lifecycle. If you've ever seen an old person especially if they are approaching 100, you know how weak, weathered, and worn their frail bodies are. Now contract that to how Dumbledore acts. We have many many people in our society who are extremely vital and active at age 70. So relative to how Dumbledore functions and looks, he would seem to be about 70 or (150/2=70). While Prof. McGonagall is said to be about 70, in the photo albums of this group is a sketch by JKR which makes McGonagall look quite young... say roughtly 35. So for ADULT wizards, as far as how they look and function, I think I'm not that far off. At age 40 to 60 Mrs. Weasley would be in her prime childbearing years. Your point, which I think I deleted, about Lilly being in her early 20's when she had Harry, about applying my formula to her, which would make her about 10 years old. Remember, that 10 year old is not the body and maturaty of a 10 year old. Lilly has an adult body and she has years of experience to mature her emotionally. The relative 10 year old figure represent the level of health and vitality she would have. The condition and rate of aging, or deterioration would be equivalent to a 10 year old. In other words, extremely vital and health. This does help explain, to some extent, why wizard are less likely to be hurt in an accident, and why they are likely to heal quicker. A 20 year old has the regenerative capacity of a 10 year old. If Molly was in school when OGG was groundkeep, that had to before Hagrid was groundkeeper which would mean the youngest she could be would be 62 (assuming Hagrid is 64). If we look as the likelihood of the two choices- 1.) Molly is 70. 2.) Through some accidental quirk of magic, the timeline has been splintered and two timelines are now running overlaped in the same physical space. Let's see which one of these is most likely to occur even in the magical world of Harry Potter? Sometimes the simplest solution is the best solution. bboy_mn From kewiromeo at aol.com Sat Jan 18 07:14:31 2003 From: kewiromeo at aol.com (kewiromeo at aol.com) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 02:14:31 EST Subject: Book 5 speculations Message-ID: <1cd.3b3fe7.2b5a58d7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50031 I think that the worst thing that the publishers could do was give us anything about the book. The fact that we have 10 lines from the books means that we are left to speculate what happens for the next 6 months or so. And when the book comes out it will be a lot of I told you so's. I think that Harry is sitting in the flowers dreaming. Dreaming of Cho/Hermoine maybe. He's just chilling out in the garden. He is getting older. Maybe things have happened around the house. Dudley is thin maybe, Aunt Marge comes back, who knows. As for the book, when Dumbledore says I will tell you everything he means everything and we will find out everything there is to know, parents, Snape, Voldermort, the works. I like all of you are counting down the days. Then it pops into my mind. Look at all the people who have websites and books based on the first 4 books. Book 5 means total overhall. I think it will be fun. I hate all the internet book things and am going to wait in front of Barnes and Nobles and get my copy there in person. Any of the NY's can join me and party heh. Tzvi of Brooklyn Check out my website for the Youngest Death Eater [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Sat Jan 18 07:59:52 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42 ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 07:59:52 -0000 Subject: Real Wizards Apologized 100 Times? (WAS Sorry?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50032 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C. " wrote: > > Oh, this is interesting. I had figured that the only true apologies > in HP were when Hermione apologizes to Ron about Scabbers, when > Avery begs forgiveness of Voldemort, and when Lupin and Sirius > exchange apologies in the Shack. > The latter two used "forgive me" rather then "sorry", too, so they're not on my list, too... > Arcum, can you give a few examples of when wizards say "Sorry" as a > true apology? I know, I know, I could figure this out for myself, > but I'm hoping that you'll share. ;-) > Sure... > Cindy -- wondering if it might be more accurate to say "Real Wizards > Apologize Way Too Much" 100 occurrances of the word sorry, over four books? Not really. Closer would be "Real wizards who weren't raised by the Dursleys seldom apologize, and when they do, they usually don't mean it." In fact, the very first occurance of the word "Sorry" was Vernon, bumping into a *real wizard", and his reaction was "Don't be sorry, my dear sir, for nothing could upset me today! Rejoice, for You-Know-Who has gone at last! Even Muggles like yourself should be celebrating, this happy, happy day!" Then there's Harry. Harry says "Sorry?" or "Vol - Sorry, You-Know-Who" a lot. He also apologizes when he thinks he offended Dobby, for brushing off Colin, disturbing the sorting hat, mistaking Winky for Dobby, calling Rita Skeeter a cow, not visiting Myrtle, not working on Buckbeaks defence, and, well, all over the place, really. A real wizard apologizing would be Ernie, though. Ernie took a deep breath and said, very formally, "I just want to say, Harry, that I'm sorry I ever suspected you. I know you'd never attack Hermione Granger, and I apologize for all the stuff I said..." Arthurs mishap with the fireplace was another one: "Er - yes - sorry about that," said Mr. Weasley, lowering his hand and looking over his shoulder at the blasted fireplace. "It's all my fault..." Amos Diggory apologizes for suspecting Harry of conjuring the Dark Mark. Hermione apologizes for body-binding Neville, about scabbers, and to Flitwick about missing class. Cho says she is sorry twice about not going to the ball with Harry, (Aside from the initial "Wangoballwime?" "Sorry?") McGonagall said she was sorry for grabbing Hermione *around the neck* in GOF, and was also sorry about not letting Harry go to Hogsmeade. There are other, more minor examples, but they aren't neccessarily true apologies, and this post is probably long enough as it is... --Arcum, who now has the mental image of waking up to Dobby's face an inch from your own stuck in my mind... From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Sat Jan 18 08:18:29 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42 ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 08:18:29 -0000 Subject: Book 5 speculations In-Reply-To: <1cd.3b3fe7.2b5a58d7@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50033 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, kewiromeo at a... wrote: > > I think that Harry is sitting in the flowers dreaming. Dreaming of > Cho/Hermoine maybe. He's just chilling out in the garden. He is > getting older. Maybe things have happened around the house. Dudley > is thin maybe, Aunt Marge comes back, who knows. > I'd say he's thinking about the graveyard, Cedric's death, Voldemorts return, and probably mentally running over the plot of the first four books as well... > As for the book, when Dumbledore says I will tell you everything he > means everything and we will find out everything there is to know, >parents, Snape, Voldermort, the works. When he says everything, I expect Harry will have already found half the pieces with Ron & Hermione. Of course, that quote could also be the opening to a speech about the birds and the bees, after Harry and Cho are caught making out behind the greenhouse... --Arcum From catlady at wicca.net Sat Jan 18 11:29:48 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 11:29:48 -0000 Subject: Snape Spies Again / Chat / who said Sorry? /advantage of Animagery Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50034 Jean wrote: << If Snape *does* return as a spy in the following three books, then JKR is going to have to do a lot of explaining (at some point in the last books) about how exactly that was possible. >> CHOP. That's the acronym for Cranium of Headmaster On a Platter, which is the theory recently proposed, that Dumbledore and Snape long ago agreed on a plan in which Snape will persuade Voldemort that his loyalty is to Voldemort, not Dumbledore, by 'giving Voldemort Dumbledore's head on a platter'. The beheading is not necessarily literal; I think it more likely that Snape will bring Dumbledore to Voldemort alive but under the Full-Body-Bind, so Voldemort can gloat over him before killing him. Dumbledore is cool with this scheme (he thought it up), as he is old and tired and eager to go on to 'the next great adventure', but Snape is NOT cool with it. Dumbledore is Snape's father-figure and apparently the only person he loves and Snape does not want Dumbledore to die at all and leave him, but even less does he want Dumbledore to die at his hands. It got worse when a thing in Elkins's dissertation on the Bartemii gave me the horrible realization that Voldemort will require Snape to *prove* his loyalty to Voldemort by seriously torturing Dumbledore as Voldemort watches. I suppose Voldemort demands only efficiency of his torturers (sadistic glee is not *required*), but that requires one Hell of an acting performance from Snape, to conceal the tears in his eyes... Syd teachgeni: < >> Are you able to get into a Yahoo!Chat chatroom? From the Y!group group home page, click on "Chat" on the lefthand side (worst), or on Y!Messenger there is a toolbar icon of a couple of talk balloons for "join a chat", or use Cheetah Chat (best) ... once you're in any Y!Chatroom, type /join HP:1 to get to OUR chatroom. Ask for help on OT during Sunday afternoon -- around noon Pacific or 8pm Greenwich time ... Kristen: << I have a question though. If real wizards don't apologize, then who does JKR's original book 5 teaser refer to? To refresh your memories: "thirty-eight chapters... might change... longest volume... Ron... broom... sacked... house- elf... new... teacher... dies... sorry" >> I felt that the word "sorry" in that snip is JKR speaking. Something along the lines of "The new book is thirty-eight chapters. That might change, but it is the longest volume so far. In it, Ron complains about his shoddy broom and wishes Snape would be sacked, but joins Hermione's crusade for house-elf liberation. There is a new Defense Against Dark Arts teacher. And a beloved character dies. I really am sorry if there are young readers traumatized by the death, but evil really is evil." Or maybe "I'm sorry if you feel cheated because this teaser leaves you still guessing." Torsten: << The only advantage of animagi is apparently that they don't need a wand and/or spell to change. >> No, a bigger advantage of Animagi is that they keep their minds. That's in QTTA, at the very beginning of the first chapter: "No spell yet devised enables wizards to fly unaided in human form. Those few Animagi who transform into winged creatures may enjoy flight, but they are a rarity. The witch or wizard who finds him- or herself transfigured into a bat may take to the air, but, having a bat's brain, they are sure to forget where they want to go the moment they take flight." The contrast is made between the Transfigured mage who has only a bat's brain in the third sentence and the Animagus who is a rarity in the second sentence. From potter76 at libero.it Sat Jan 18 12:24:55 2003 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 13:24:55 +0100 (ora solare Europa occ.) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Witchcraft and Wizardry: What do they teach at Hogwarts???? References: Message-ID: <3E294797.000001.39693@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 50035 SophineClaire: I've been thinking about this for a couple of days. Hogwarts has the sub-title of being a school for Witchcraft and Wizardry. Now, if magic was all inclusive wouldn't Hogwarts be subtitled as a school of Magic, that being what everyone is learning there. Or is there more to it. Me: But doesn't Hogwarts School of Whitchcraft and Wizardry sound much better than Hogwarts School of Magic? It's got an 'ancient' feeling to it, it conjures up some images the other doesn't. And as Scott said, this way it's also clear that it a school for both boys and girls and that they cover all kinds of magic. SophineClaire: Granted, this coule just be a way to say 'Witches do witchcraft while Wizards do wizardry but it's all the same, except in title' that possibly dates back to before the founders. Or back in the days when there were sections of magic that were a considered to be a man's domain and others that were placed strictly off limits to them by women. Me: That's exactly how I see it. It's not that there is some magic specific to any sex but that traditionally males are pictured doing some things and females others, everyone brews potions, everyone has magical ways of healing but in popular culture some things seem more appropriate for a wizard ( carrying a staff, for example) and others for witches ( riding broomsticks). Please Remember that it was not the 4 Founders who chose the name for the benefit of the WW, but JKR who tried to come up with something meaningfull and evocative for us! We hear Witchcraft and Wizardry and we form our expectations from all we know about this things. SophineClaire: Or maybe there are forms of magic that can really only be performed by one sex or the other, if you remove what their society might say. Me: As I said I think is just a cultural thing although some of the simbolism used in rites is related to sexuality. SophineClaire: What was so special about Lily's so-called-save-my-baby charm that only she could do?? Why not James or Sirius or Remus or Peter?. Is it because she is his mother? she's a female? Me: No, it's simply because JKr chose to be so. She could have had James sacrifice his life and the effect would have been just the same, a parent's love is supposed to be the strongest, isn't it? It only works better this way for the reason Scott gave: there is a universal acceptance that a mother's love is love in it's purest form. I know your mother and father should love you about the same, but there's just more connection between mother and child than father and child. R. From jmeec316 at aol.com Sat Jan 18 05:39:05 2003 From: jmeec316 at aol.com (Jaimee ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 05:39:05 -0000 Subject: Response to: Lucius and Voldemort In-Reply-To: <20030110203518.47752.qmail@web40513.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50036 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kathryn Wolber wrote: > > --- "cbca1126 " > wrote: > > I have wondered why the Malfoy's are such ardent > > supporters of LV > > when the are so anti Muggle and half blood. > > Ofcourse this could just be a hole in the plot that > > JKR has not > > noticed. > > Another question: If the "monster", in the chamber > > of secrets was > > supposed to rid the school of those that were not of > > pureblood, then > > why was Tom Riddle himself not attacked by it? > > > > EJ IMO, isn't this just another way that LV is Hitler-like?? I mean...I have not studied WWII since High School. But if I remember correctly, Hitler was a brown(er)-haired, brown-eyed Austrian who made practically all of Germany believe that blonde-haired, blue-eyed Germans were supreme. I kinda hold LV in the same light...does background really matter when you have that marvelous of a power to persuade people?? ~Jai From sevothtarte at gmx.net Sat Jan 18 01:01:36 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 02:01:36 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Witchcraft and Wizardry: What do they teach at Hogwarts???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <720896F0GEC65B794EB6WUXVQNJGB.3e28a770@tk> No: HPFGUIDX 50037 SophineClaire: > Or maybe there are forms of magic that can really only be >performed by one sex or the other, if you remove what their society >might say. What was so special about Lily's so-called-save-my-baby >charm that only she could do?? Why not James or Sirius or Remus or >Peter?. Is it because she is his mother? she's a female? Why shouldn't have something similar happened if James had been in Lilys place? James tried to hold Voldemort off, he was willing to die to give them time, but Lily explicitely offered her life in exchange for Harry's, without fighting, it was more outright a sacrifice than James', but that doesn't mean only a woman or mother could call upon this ancient magic (not that I think she actually was aware of doing it anyway). >this points to something. Maybe you can call it Sex Ed, but maybe >Witches have the upper hand to men when it comes to magic. You could just as easily say the men are more powerful since most of the top mages are male - Voldemort and Dumbledore for example. >that's going on a tangent. But why call a refer to a school as >teaching Witchcraft and Wizardry if there isn't some sort of >difference between males and females that require that sort of >classifaction. Maybe the founders were ahead of their time ... In countries whose languages more often make a difference between male and female, there has been that (rather silly) tendency in recent years to talk about, for example, "female teachers and male teachers" instead of the plain term which usually is the male one. If Hogwarts were a "School for Wizardry", feminist witches might have started complaining about the "discriminating" name by now. ^_~ Torsten From EilanofAlbion at gmx.net Sat Jan 18 11:45:41 2003 From: EilanofAlbion at gmx.net (Eilan ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 11:45:41 -0000 Subject: Harry Heir to Gryff WAS Re: more speculation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50038 > I am a firm believer that Harry is the Heir to Gryffindor (perhaps > Slytherin too). But what I can't reconcile is, if Harry is, then why > doesn't everyone know about it? Wouldn't Rita say something in the > paper..."Harry Potter, heir of Gryffindor, regularly cries into his > pillow every night over his parents' deaths..." You'll have to take into consideration that the Founders lived 1000 years ago, and especially during the Drak Age (500-1500) there were wars and quarrels that destroyed evidence of who was who's heir. If for example a whole family dies, let's say from grandparents to children than the legal heir could become someone that wouldn't even know of that. So it is possible that due to missing records noone except for Dumbledore and a few others knows about it. Eilan From dave at acbradio.org Sat Jan 18 12:20:13 2003 From: dave at acbradio.org (Dave Williams) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 12:20:13 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Summer Job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50039 ---Debbie McLain writes: > I have repeatedly thought that Harry would get a job a the local > corner drugstore ... It would be run by a man called PapaJoe Well, apart from the fact that drugstore's don't exist in England in quite the same way as the U.S. But maybe a chemist. Although I wouldn't be surprised if one has to be 18 to work in a Chemist. Oh and no one calls anyone Papa in the UK. Unless one is being ironic? :) But anything's possible Debbie. :) Imho, it is Dudley lying in the garden. :) Remember where you heard it first. :) I don't have any evidence for this, just a strong gut feeling. -- Dave W It's JK's ball, we're just playing with it. From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sat Jan 18 12:23:16 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 06:23:16 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wands and those who lost them References: Message-ID: <3E294734.D9455292@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50040 "ameliacrafter " wrote: > > I've been trying to remember, and am not sure: > 1-Hagrid-His wand was broken when he was expelled 50+ years ago. > It's assumed the pieces are in his umbrella, I believe. Has he > officially used a wand since he was cleared at the end of Chamber of > Secrets? I wonder about him some time taking the wizarding > equivalent of a US Muggle GED (equivalency exam for those that didn't > finish high school). > 2-Sirius-I assume his wand was taken when he was sent to Azkaban. > Have we seen him do any wand-magic? Apparition and the animagus > transformation don't (I believe) require a wand. Have we seen him > using a wand? > 3-Voldemort-I'll skip him, since I've seen discussion already on 'how > did he get his wand back?' > > Any info would be appreciated, partly just to find out, partly as > research for my fanfic in progress. > > Thanks all! > > Amelia Crafter > > If Ron could go buy a new wand, then certainly anyone else can and certainly there are many places other then Diagon Alley you can buy one. Other countries you can get them in too where they would not even know that Hagrid was expelled (in a British Magic School, so how would a wand shop in say, China know?) or that Sirius was in Azkaban (maybe he got that new wand down south where those big colorful birds were that he used for owl post). We always assume they are still using their original wands for some reason. Maybe because Voldemort still has his, but Ron certainly has a new one after breaking his, so wands CAN be replaced. Jazmyn From renitentraven at hotmail.com Sat Jan 18 07:44:13 2003 From: renitentraven at hotmail.com (Lisa Armstrong ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 07:44:13 -0000 Subject: Wands and those who lost them Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50041 Amelia< Would Hagrid have taken an equivalancy exam.....> Amelia, I don't imagine there would be any official alternatives for a magical education once you've been expelled from Hogwarts or one of it's alternatives. I think if there was Hagrid would, with Dumbledore's tutoring, be a fully qualified wizard by now and not need to be cartng around broken wand pieces in his pink umbrella. But a Quick-Spell course, that's a different possibility. We've yet to see Hagrid 'Drink to much and set fire to his bed', as Draco slandered, but we've seen him doing some nifty engorgement charms etc. with that same pink brolly. Agreeing with bboy here, Dumbledore's probably kept Hagrid up to speed in an unofficial capacity, possibly forseeing that one day he'd be off on an OotP mission to the giants on Dumbledore's behalf. Cheers, Lisa (every day I post here is one day closer to Book 5):D From kristen at sanderson-web.com Sat Jan 18 13:29:49 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (gkjpo ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 13:29:49 -0000 Subject: Sorry?...sacked...Theories to be checked in June In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50042 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arcum42 " wrote: > Well, in my statistics, Snape has actually said the word "Sorry" > twice, and Dumbledore once. Sirus Black, OTOH, has *never* said sorry > in the series yet, and even has something he really ought to apologise > for... > > --Arcum Snape may have said sorry twice, but I can't remember ever hearing a sincere apology from him. However, with your statistics from the bottom of the stack, I think you have the most likely candidates listed. Now, on to sacked. :) There aren't many positions in the HP books that you can be sacked from. It's either got to be a house elf (and since most of the elves are at Hogwarts that's very unlikely), or a teacher/headmaster. I notice that many people have hoped that Ron's statement about Snape hopefully being sacked could be foreshadowing. That is certainly one possibility. I say the other likely candidates are: Dumbledore (the previously stated theory of the ruse involving a plan with Snape), Hagrid (to do work with the Giants). Also, I keep wondering if Minerva M. will have more of a role in these books. She seems to be strangely on the fringes of what's going on. Is it because she's too straight shooting to take Dumbledore's antics? Prof. Flitwick has also been out of the picture, but since Lily was so good at charms I have to guess that he will become more involved as we learn about Lily's past. Is there a place on this list where we can store our theories on what will happen in book 5 so that when it comes out we can check them against what happens? I think that someone should put together a list of the quotes/teasers and everyone that wants to can write up their guess on what each one means and we can have something to go back to in June when book 5 comes out. I think it would be fun. It would be fun. Are posts enough for that? Kristen From pepsiboy71 at mac.com Sat Jan 18 14:05:46 2003 From: pepsiboy71 at mac.com (Pepsiboy) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 09:05:46 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What will you do on 20 June? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50043 I have a friend who works at Borders Books and Music and I might ask if I could be 'employed' for the day so I could get a copy that night. ;-) -Pep From gandharvika at hotmail.com Sat Jan 18 14:11:06 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 14:11:06 +0000 Subject: (FILK) What Do You Mean? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50044 What Do You Mean? (I'm not too pleased with this title, but I couldn't come up with anything better...) (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Don't Bother Me_ by the Beatles) Dedicated to Gingersnape Sing along the Midi...it's fun! http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle02.html Scene: SS/PS chapter 13...Snape has just gone out to the Forbidden Forest to have a private conversation with Prof. Quirrell. Harry is hiding up in a tree listening in... Quirrell (acting dumb): I don't know why you've asked that I meet you right here You're asking these questions of me, it is not clear Severus Snape, I do not know...what do you mean? Snape: Quirrell, I thought that we both ought to speak alone Oh, the students they all shouldn't know 'bout the Stone And you know well, perfectly well, just what I mean I know that you will not confess to your bit of hocus pocus Just so you know, you don't want me to be your enemy Have you found how to get around Hagrid's canine? You're mumbling, but I'm waiting for your reply Quirrell: Severus Snape, I do not know...what do you mean? Snape: Oh, you know well, perfectly well, just what I mean Harry: The Sorcerer's Stone will be safe as long as Quirrell stands up to Snape I know what Ron is going to say: "It'll be gone by next Tuesday." Snape: I am glad that we've had this chat, we'll meet again Let you decide where your loyalties lie, so until then Don't try to get the Sorcerer's Stone, don't mess with me Know what I mean? Know what I mean? Know what I mean? Know what I mean? (repeat till fade...) -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From Ali at zymurgy.org Sat Jan 18 15:04:34 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 15:04:34 -0000 Subject: Sacked? was Re: Sorry?...sacked...Theories to be checked in June In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50045 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gkjpo " wrote: << Now, on to sacked. :) There aren't many positions in the HP books that you can be sacked from. >> I would agree that there aren't that many that would add much to the story... << It's either got to be a house elf (and since most of the elves are at Hogwarts that's very unlikely), or a teacher/headmaster. >>> Why? Percy could be sacked because he failed to alert the MoM to the suspicious nature of Crouch's disappearance. He was put under pressure at the end of GoF, and he wasn't allowed to go to the 3rd task. This would be making Percy a scapegoat for the MoM's failure to do anything. IMO this is a scenario which is at least plausible, and could provide Percy with a reason to go to the Darkside. Arthur Weasley could be sacked if he's caught stirring up anti- Fudge sentiment in the MoM. If we're really going to push the boat out, Vernon Dursley could be sacked from his company. This is possible depending on what sort of company it is - public/private limited company ie if it is dependant on shareholder support or not, and what directorship he holds. I believe that it is the most unlikely scenario, as I think we are led to believe that he is the Managing Director of his own (Private) Limited Company. Bill and Charlie Weasley could also be sacked, although I admit that this is very unlikely as, at this stage I can't think that it would add much to the story. On the information we have so far, Dumbledore must be a prime candidate to be sacked. In the "Parting of Ways", Fudge says that he will be "In touch" to discuss the running of the school. This could be a euphemism for what Fudge actually has in mind. A school boy death, suspicions surrounding Harry plus Dumbledore's standing up to Fudge could all provide ammunition to dismiss DD. This would certainly have an affect on Harry's hero's journey. Ali From btk6y at virginia.edu Sat Jan 18 16:50:15 2003 From: btk6y at virginia.edu (btk6y ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 16:50:15 -0000 Subject: I Don't See a Problem with OGG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50046 1) You haven't really addressed the issue raised in the previous message that if Arthur and Molly are 70 they would have had their first child 30 years after Hogwarts, which intuitively doesn't make sense to me, although there is no definitive reason to say that is could not have happened. 2) We really can't use the 100/200 comparison because it is not really "rounding off". Average human life span is about 75-ish, making wizarding life span about 150 years. This is why Dumbledore is always portrayed as old (even though vital) since he is the equivalent of a 75 year old man at the end of his life span. Still, that would make Arthur & Molly about 50 in Muggle years which is not unreasonable. 3) Really what makes the whole Molly/Arthur thing weird for me is that it would mean that they are the same age as McGonagall, and that is just NOT something I get from reading the books. It actually would mean that they went to school at approximately the same time and may have even been schoolmates. Can you see McGonagall and Arthur/Molly Weasley going to school together? I think most people have difficulty with this, which is why it is a question for a lot of people. I can't tell you any definitive cannon that would prove me right, more just a sense you get from reading the books. That's why I don't think the Ogg thing makes sense and I just think it's more likely she made a mistake in GoF with a random side fact about Ogg. I know, you will tell me JKR doesn't have just random facts and plans it all out- but she has made many mistakes in her books before. But I completely leave myself open to the possibility/probability that I'm wrong, and I would love to hear what JKR has to say on the subject. From jodel at aol.com Sat Jan 18 17:08:27 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 12:08:27 EST Subject: Wands and those who lost them Message-ID: <108.1e0d8063.2b5ae40b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50047 Amelia Crafter made a list. To that list you can add; 4-Lupin- he dropped it when he transformed at the end of PoA and Peter Pettigrew grabbed it before he transformed into a rat and escaped. Just keeping things straight... -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kaesaauralia at cs.com Sat Jan 18 17:00:49 2003 From: kaesaauralia at cs.com (kaesaauralia at cs.com) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 12:00:49 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I Don't See a Problem with Ogg Message-ID: <1a4.f795398.2b5ae241@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50048 I don't understand. Molly and Arthur went to school before Hagrid was gamekeeper, ergo they went to school before he got expelled? When Hagrid was expelled, wasn't he then *trained* to be a gamekeeper? Couldn't Ogg have been still training him when they went to school? Of course, I could be wrong. That's just always been my assumption. ~Kaesa, who is probably wrong. :-( [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From wpfositpoi at yahoo.com Sat Jan 18 17:10:24 2003 From: wpfositpoi at yahoo.com (wpfositpoi ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 17:10:24 -0000 Subject: How does book five *end* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50049 > I wonder. JKR has been quoted as saying that there are things coming > with the Dursley's that we might not expect (would this be them being > unexpectedly loyal to Harry - something we REALLY wouldn't expect? > Maybe they'll be SORRY for their past treatment of him! :). Maybe > this is the book where the cycle is broken and Harry doesn't have the > Dursleys to go back to! After all, if Mrs. Figg is exposed and we > find out all about her, does that mean that Harry's protection at the > Dursleys is broken? > > Kristen I heard a rumor that some wizards and witches are late bloomers. Perhaps Dudley or Aunt Petunia will eventually get their powers? wpfositpoi From cantor at vgernet.net Sat Jan 18 17:22:33 2003 From: cantor at vgernet.net (cantoramy ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 17:22:33 -0000 Subject: Witchcraft and Wizardry: What do they teach at Hogwarts???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50050 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sophineclaire " wrote: > I've been thinking about this for a couple of days. > Hogwarts has the sub-title of being a school for Witchcraft and > Wizardry. Now, if magic was all inclusive wouldn't Hogwarts be > subtitled as a school of Magic, that being what everyone is learning > there. Or is there more to it. IMO, from a literary sense, the phrase "school of magic" doesn't evoke the same mystery as "school of witchcraft and wizardy." After all, muggles can perform what we call "magic" tricks, which, of course, depend on the hand being quicker than the eye. Witchcraft and wizardry imply actual, muggle-unexplainable spells and charms. I think this reveals why JKR is such an appealing author. Her selections of words makes us believe everything she has written could be true. Just a thought. cantoramy From tahewitt at yahoo.com Sat Jan 18 17:37:36 2003 From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 09:37:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dumbledore gets sacked? In-Reply-To: <1042903018.6721.86201.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030118173736.95988.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50051 Ali wrote: On the information we have so far, Dumbledore must be a prime candidate to be sacked. In the "Parting of Ways", Fudge says that he will be "In touch" to discuss the running of the school. This could be a euphemism for what Fudge actually has in mind. A school boy death, suspicions surrounding Harry plus Dumbledore's standing up to Fudge could all provide ammunition to dismiss DD. This would certainly have an affect on Harry's hero's journey. Me: If DD gets sacked, maybe he will retire to a home he owns somewhere. I imaging a smallish castle in a remote location. Unboubtedly it would be a facinating, magical place where Harry could visit (the 'new place we havent yet seen' hinted about in OoP) and get told 'everything' by DD, without the interruptions of life at Hogwarts. Tyler __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Sat Jan 18 17:57:21 2003 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 17:57:21 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore gets sacked? References: <20030118173736.95988.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50052 I don't think that Fudge would dare to sack dumbledore, no matter how he feels. DD got hundreads of letters about hagrid when Skeeter told 'lies' about him, telling him not to sack him. No matter how -beep - fudge is at DD, I don't think he'll try to sack him. However, interference such as dementers, appointing the teachers and some other choices could all be done without much protest. Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lupinesque at yahoo.com Sat Jan 18 18:00:40 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 18:00:40 -0000 Subject: Wands and those who lost them In-Reply-To: <108.1e0d8063.2b5ae40b@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50053 Jodel wrote: > Amelia Crafter made a list. > > To that list you can add; > > 4-Lupin- he dropped it when he transformed at the end of PoA and Peter > Pettigrew grabbed it before he transformed into a rat and escaped. and 5-Crouch Jr.--he had his confiscated (presumably, when he was arrested). As he says in "Veritaserum," he hadn't been permitted one in years. We can assume the same for other convicts. Harry loses his, of course, but since it turns out to have been stolen that doesn't count. Or maybe it does, depending on why you're collecting the information. Amy who just knows she would misplace hers every other day From heidit at netbox.com Sat Jan 18 15:09:34 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 11:09:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore gets sacked? Message-ID: <200301181815.h0IIFJHM027979@BlackBerry.NET> No: HPFGUIDX 50054 But as a few others have said, Dumbledore's already been sacked once -in a way - back in CoS. To do it again might feel redundent or like overkill, imho. Heidi Tandy Follow me to FictionAlley - Harry Potter fanfics of all shapes, sizes and ships - 7 sickles an ounce http://www.FictionAlley.org -----Original Message----- From: "Christopher Nuttall" Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 17:57:21 To: Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore gets sacked? Real-To: "Christopher Nuttall" I don't think that Fudge would dare to sack dumbledore, no matter how he feels. DD got hundreads of letters about hagrid when Skeeter told 'lies' about him, telling him not to sack him. No matter how -beep - fudge is at DD, I don't think he'll try to sack him. However, interference such as dementers, appointing the teachers and some other choices could all be done without much protest. Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From susannahlm at yahoo.com Sat Jan 18 18:17:52 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (susannahlm ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 18:17:52 -0000 Subject: TBAY/SHIP: Romance on the Big Bang Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50055 "No, no, keep your eyes closed," says the woman, in her chirpy voice. Derannimer complies, stubbing her toe as she is led around a corner. She is wondering, not for the first time, if this was such a hot idea. Of course Ms. Mary Suzanne Jenkins had come with excellent references; and it would have taken a great deal more time to have done it all herself. . . but still, perhaps it really hadn't been the the best idea to hire an unknown interior decorator to redo the mouldering Shipping Wing on the Big Bang destroyer. Too late now, though. "All right now," sings out Mary Suzanne, releasing Derannimer's hand finally. "We're here!" Derannimer opens her eyes. "Well, and what do you think?" "Oh! Uh. . . "oh." Derannimer wonders briefly if all of reality can have gone pink, before wondering briefly if there could be something wrong with her eyes, before realizing that yes, she really was standing in a large circular ballroom that yes, really was, ceiling and all, done out in. . . maybe "Blushing Rose?" Well, not all of the room. The first four feet or so of wall, from floor to hideously ornate moulding, is plastered with candy-cane striped wallpaper. Derannimer, seized with a morbid curiousity, moves to the wall to inspect it more closely. Mary Suzanne's happy voice is rippling out from the middle of the room. "And I was thinking, of course, a light BLUE for the morning parlour," it is saying. The moulding is all carved up in little intertwining--or rather, quite large intertwining--roses. ". . . it's really quite a GLO-rious room, too! Look at those WINDOWS!" The woman makes a grand, windmilling gesture around at the walls, which is tragically lost on Derannimer, because Derannimer is not looking at Mary Suzanne. Derannimer is looking at the wallpaper. She has just realized two things. 1. The candy-cane wallpaper is not red-and-white. It is red-and-pink. 2. So *this* is what all those mystery novelists meant when they spoke of "a thrill of sudden horror." Mary Suzanne's voice seems somehow to fade away--though Derannimer is betting it hasn't, really--as the girl slowly steps away from the wall, craning her neck back to look up and around the rest of the room. Yes, that probably is "Blushing Rose." Probably about five coats worth of "Blushing Rose." And that is most inarguably a shiny, shimmery, sending-pastel-shades-of-soft-light-across-the-already- quite-hideous-enough-thank-you-very-much-walls strobe light. Derannimer realizes a third thing. 3. No, it was *not* the best idea to hire an unknown interior decorator. It wasn't even the better or the good idea to hire an unknown interior decorator. Derannimer brings her roving gaze to settle on Mary Suzanne, who is still speaking, although now she is sashaying through the room as she walks, leaving footprints in the pink shag carpeting. "It WAS quite a job, but I think I've got it done NOW! And TELL ME, dear--" wheeling around like some odd species of bird, and abruptly facing Derannimer--"what DO you think?" Derannimer suddenly realizes that she doesn't want to tell Mary Suzanne what she thinks about the room, partly because she suspects that her words may be inadequate, but mostly because she has a queer impression that Mary Suzanne might attack her if she did. "It's MAHVELOUS DAHLING," she says instead, wondering wildly if anyone actually ever *says* that, as she briskly strides towards Mary Suzanne. "Oh, well I'm so pleased that you LIKE it!" says the obviously gratified decorator. Derannimer comes up to her, grabs the woman by her slim shoulders-- which is quite difficult, as they are still gesticulating--and marches her towards the big double doors. "Now, do call on me whenever you need ANYTHING done," says Mary Suzanne, as Derannimer detaches one hand from her shoulder and grabs for the doorknob. "And do WRITE me if i--" *Clang.* Derannimer wonders briefly, as the heavy wooden doors slam satisfyingly shut, if the decorator noticed anything abrupt about her departure; but she doesn't wonder long. Women like Mary Suzanne notice very little. Derannimer turns back towards the room, and leans against the double doors. As she looks around the ballroom, at the high, vaulted ceiling and arched windows, it strikes her for the first time that the room is really quite a nice one, and she bursts into tears. But only for about five seconds, after which she decides that she may be a woman with a pink ballroom, but dash it all, that's no reason to start behaving like a woman with a pink ballroom! Also, the door seems to be moving against her back. "Darn it, Sailor!" A muffled voice is coming through the wood. "Open the blasted door already!" Derannimer unbursts out of tears and dashes out of the way of the door, as it is flung open by a quite irate Captain Cindy, who positively charges into the room. Gail and Eileen come in after her, though at a more sedate clip. Gail and Eileen. Oh *no.* Crewmen. Crewmen that want in to the Shipping Wing. Derannimer wonders unhappily how long they were waiting to speak to her, while she was gadding about with a mad interior decorator and-- and *bawling like an idiot,* for heaven's sake. Derannimer is not entirely surprised that the Captain is marching towards her, a rather dissatisfied expression on her face, pausing only to stagger slightly when she sees the strobe lights. She stops in front of her crewman, and says, quite low and quite clearly: "I am talking to you. Outside." She points. "Now." The hallway outside is narrow and dimly lit. But not pink. Captain Cindy closes the doors on Gail's curious look, and turns to Derannimer. "Now listen, Sailor," she hisses. "I may have let this shipping stuff on my ship, but that doesn't mean I intend to run it! What am I supposed to do when you're not around--sit the crewmen down and talk them through their shipping *myself?* Not half likely! Now I have given you a *job* to do and if I catch you deserting your post again, *you-are-gonna-regret-it!* "Am. I. Clear." "Ma'am, yes, ma'am," says Derannimer, aware that she is standing much straighter than she had been a minute ago. "Sorry," she adds, as the intensity as the Captain's glare seems to be diminishing. Cindy looks closely at her for a minute, then nods. "And another thing," she says. She doesn't sound mad any longer, but she does sound. . . dubious? "Crewman, why is that room pink?" Gail backs away from the moulding as the doors bang back open, and Eileen, who had been trying out a pirourette on the fat carpet, straightens and tries to look less ridiculous. The Captain does not approve of pirourettes. The Captain seems to be in quite a good mood, however; once inside the ballroom, she looks around and starts laughing. After a minute, so does Derannimer. Gail and Eileen exchange puzzled looks. They've both had a good look at this ballroom, and they can't find any humor in it at all. Pain, now, yes. But hey, as long as they're in a good mood. . . "Uh, Derannimer," begins Gail. "Eileen and I had a couple of shipping theories, and seeing as how you're in charge of this--" she waved her hand helplessly at the room--"this place, we wondered if maybe--" "Of course she will," interupts the Captain. "Matter of fact, I'll sit in myself. Give you. . . *romantic* types a hand with your Banging." "Oh," says Gail, taken aback. "Well then, how 'bout we sit down and--" "But not in here," says the Captain hastily. Obviously, there are *some* limits. Derannimer isn't sure if this is a good idea--she hasn't even seen it yet--but at least it isn't pink. "How about the morning parlour?" she asks brightly. "I understand it's a light blue." ><(("> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> The morning parlour is actually quite nice. For one thing, the light blue turns out to be *extremely* light, and a good deal less "robin's egg" than Derannimer had imagined. The room is small; after they go in the door, there are only about four steps forward to the square table that occupies most of the room. Well, three steps forward, one step *up* and one step forward; that portion of the floor is slightly elevated. There are only three chairs, but seating won't be too difficult--this room is on the side of the ship, and the first thing you notice as you enter the room is the recessed bay window facing you across the table. The window ledge is broad, and excellent for perching. Gail grabs a chair, Captain Cindy and Eileen settle themselves on the ledge, and Derannimer potters about for a minute getting tea. There is also a large hutch in the room, which sits off the "dais," and which contains a good many tea bags, a electric hot plate, and--for some strange reason--an awful lot of vintage brandy. Derannimer hands everybody a mug, takes a chair, and looks expectantly Gail-wards. "Well?" she asks. "Well," says Gail. "I've been giving some thought to Banging and SHIPs in general. And I've come to a conclusion; SHIPs can Bang--almost *any* ship can Bang." Captain Cindy opens her mouth to say something, but Gail holds up a hand and hastily continues. "*But* not. . . oh dear, how can I put this. . . I don't mean a SHIP qua a SHIP. I mean a SHIP combined with something else." Derannimer frowns slightly. "I'm afraid I don't quite follow." "Let me give you an example then." Gail sits for a minute, thinking and drinking her tea. "All right then," she says, setting a decisive mug down on the table. "Let's take a Harry/Hermione SHIP. "Fifth year; Harry finally notices that Hermione is a girl, asks her out to Hogsmeade, takes her on long walks around the lake, whatever. Point is, they are an item. They've always cared for each other as friends, but now they care for each other more even than--" "Could you cut this part *short,* already!" The Captain is giving Gail a most uncharitable look. "Right, right," Gail says hastily. She continues. "Anyway, leaving all the mushy stuff to the fic writers, the point is that Harry is in love with Hermione--" the Captain clears her throat loudly--"and then Hermione gets killed." "Oh!" says Derannimer. "I think I see where you're going with this." "How does she get killed," asks Cindy, whose interest in this scenario seems to have abrubtly increased. "Can she be killed in an ambush?" "Sure she can be killed in an ambush," says the generous Gail. "She *ought* to be killed in an ambush, actually. Or in any extremely gruesome/painful way you want. With one caveat--she has to die in front of Harry. Or, if you like, Harry can die in front of her. See, they are completely and madly in love and then after you think that the two are going to live happily ever after, OUCH! One of them is killed...maybe if we're lucky, right in front of the other's eyes. A messy smear that Filch will have to clean up. Would that count, Captain? Derannimer?" "Oh, the humanity!" exclaims Derannimer. Captain Cindy still looks sceptical, but remains silent. "Yeah, see," Derannimer continues, "I really like that. That can really Bang. See, here's the thing about Banging SHIPs: the SHIP itself does *not* bang. "Two people in love," does not Bang. You know, unless we're gonna SHIP SS/HG or something, in which case--" "Eww!" objects Gail. "Precisely. But at any rate, the point is, most SHIPs don't Bang by themselves. "What *does* Bang with a Ship, now, is _what being in love makes people *do,* in reaction to outside circumstances_. For instance--and I know you hate this Captain--look at Lollipops." The Captain emits a loud snort, which everyone ignores. Derannimer continues. "Or for another instance, look at my own favorite: FITD- RecklesslyJealous!Ron Variant. Or look at Gail's suggestion. "With Lollipops, it's not 'Love of Lily' that Bangs. But Snape becoming a DE Bangs. And Snape turning spy Bangs. And if either of those events was *prompted* by 'Love of Lily,' then the fact that Snape was in love led to a very serious Bang. "And with FITD-RecklesslyJealous!Ron Variant, Ron loving Hermione does not Bang. But Ron being unhappily in love can *prompt* him to do something that will Bang." "You know," Eileen interjects, "despite how often we R/Hers make fun of it, Evil!Ron is the only form of H/Hr that I findacceptable. Evil!Ron would be bangy and fit in withthe very bangy plot. But currently, I don't see it - I won't go into that here - and even if he were to go evil, I'd rather not that love be at the root of it.Going to the dark side is a big important thing, and JKR would cheapen her treatment of it to base it off someone being slighted in love. It wouldn't be bangy enough." "Oh, no no!" Derannimer interupts. "No, I don't like Evil!Ron either. Goodness, no. "No, I'm proposing something rather different. I'm proposing that Ron does something. . . something *stupid.* Something careless, because he gets angry and Just Doesn't Think. I'm not trying to make some kind of. . . of *Snape* parallel. I was thinking more of a Sirius parallel. You know, hot-headed, thoughtless, that kind of thing. Like with Prank, almost, except that instead of nearly feeding his enemy to a werewolf out of anger/irritation, Ron accidently does something that endangers Harry--or the Light Side generally--out of anger/jealousy. Like Sirius would. "Or really," she adds, after a moment's hesitation, "really, almost like *Hagrid* would. 'I shouldn't 'a said that.' Not malice; just a mistake." "So," says Eileen, "you're saying that the anger, or jealousy, or general stupidity that can go *with* the love is the. . . the Root of Bang, in a SHIP." Gail is nodding. "One might almost say," she says, "that it isn't the love; it's what goes wrong with the love." "Yeah." Derannimer nods. "'It's The Misery, Stupid'. "Not," she adds a minute later, "that I'm calling the C--any of you-- Stupid'." "Well I should say not," growls the Captain, whose countenance has been pretty black ever since Derannimer brought up Lollipops. "Look, Derannimer, Gail, Eileen--here's the problem. "It's all very well and good to propose a Root of Bangy SHIPs, but it won't work very well in the long run if *JKR* doesn't have a Root of Bangy SHIPs, and I don't think she does. "See, ya gotta understand love," Cindy began. Derannimer quirks an eyebrow, which Cindy ignores. "There's eros, which is sexual love. There's philos, which is friendship. And there's agape, love of God. Then there's storge, which is parental love --" "Yes, yes, I've read _The Four Loves_ too," interupts Derannimer. "And what we are talking about here is eros. So?" "So the idea of eros as potentially Bangy is non-canonical, and the most Bangy type of love in canon is storge." There is a silence in the little room for a minute, as Gail, Eileen, and Derannimer think about this. "I mean, look at the instances in canon in which a witch or wizard knowingly and directly sacrifices himself or herself to save another wizard's life. Lily. Mrs. Crouch." "But," says Eileen, "if romance doesn't motivate major character actions, then we have more than the demise of LOLLIPOPS or something. We have the *Death of Shipping* as we know it." "Yeah," says Cindy, with a grating degree of mock sorrow. "Tragic, in'it?" "Hold on a minute, Captain," says Derannimer firmly. "First of all, even if eros never is a motivating factor in the canon, that doesn't mean the Death of Shipping. It means the Death of Bangy Shipping. I've read an awful lot of Shipping discussions, and trust me-- *nothing* will *ever* mean the Death of Shipping. Trust me. "Second. Let me remind you that the HP books have thus far been A: Quite, *quite* sexually conservative and oblique, and B: Told from the point of view of 11-14 year olds. The older the Trio get, the more we see in the way of Romance. The older the Trio get, the more we *will* see in the way of Romance. So the fact that we have not seen eros as a major motivating factor to this point in canon does not mean that we never will; after all, pre- POA and Cho Chang, we didn't see eros as even *existent.* "Eros is generally not a big motivating factor in the life of an 11- year old. It can be in the life of a 17-year old." "Yeah, *but,*" says the Captain, still radiating smugness, "We haven't seen it in the lives of the *adults* in the series either. Surely you're not gonna tell me *they're* too young for it." "No. Of course not. But the books are told *from Harry's point of view.* How much in the way of adult eros do you think an 11-year old, notoriously unobservant Harry is going to pick up on, anyway?" Seeing that the Captain is still smirking annoying, Derannimer simply adds: "Look. If, when the next book comes out, whenever that is, if ever, it turns out that Lollipops is true, you will have to concede the point. And if the romance is kept extremely light and minimal, *and* there is no Lollipops, then *I* will have to concede the point." The Captain grins at her suddenly. "You're on. Loser has to pay for the re-decorations in the ballroom." "Wait, I wasn't proposing a b--" "Too late. You're on." "But I--" "Too late." As the Captain outranks her--and as it would be nice to get that room re-done, one way or another--Derannimer decides not to press the point. But she does dearly hope that she wins that bet. She doesn't even want to *think* about how many cans of paint it would require to cover all that 'Blushing Rose'." "You know, Derannimer," says Eileen thoughtfully, a minute and a re- filled mug later. "What you said about the romance being kept 'extremely light' made me think of something. See, bangs are nice, but you don't really want a 100% bangy OotP, Cindy, trust me. "*What!* Of *course* I--" "You want a bangy and funny OotP, and JKR's shipping so far has been *very* funny. Teenage love may not be serious, but it's hilarious to see caricateur in people like Ron, Hermione, Viktor, and Harry." "You're absolutely right," says the Captain firmly. Derannimer had always suspected that the woman could shift gears at the speed of light. "It's as I said previously--Shipping does not Bang. It's something light and fluffy for us all--well, for some of us, anyway-- to enjoy, but it *does not move the plot.* I think canon suggests that *if* there's romance in future books, it will be for humor value -? superfluous, a distraction, a side-show -? and not at all connected to important plot developments." "You may have a point," says Eileen. "We want Bangs that involve bloody ambushes, not Ron discovering that Hermione's cheating on with Harry." "We want Bangs that involve erstwhile friends committing tragic errors of judgement and leading those whom they would really least wish to betray *INTO* BLOODY AMBUSHES! HA-HAH! Storge *THAT*!" The Captain, Gail, and Eileen all look at Derannimer with some concern. Derannimer blinks. "I'm sorry," she says. "I'm not altogether sure why I said that." "Did you. . . Derannimer, you didn't have any of that brandy in there, did you?" The Captain points at the hutch. "Because if so. . ." "No, no. No, I didn't. I think that maybe--" Derannimer does not get a chance to finish her sentence. The floor and walls and table and teapot all suddenly explode. Or at least, that's what it sounds like. The whole room swings crazily, and Derannimer hits the floor, hard-- or maybe the floor hits her, she's not sure--but whichever it is, the floor doesn't seem to be down anymore, because although she's on the floor she's sliding down, and she can't be sliding through the floor, so the floor must not be down, and heavens above, *what* is happening, and "Did something hit us?" she hears herself yelling. *Thud.* She hits something, and stops sliding. She opens her eyes. She hadn't realized before that they were closed. The room seems much dimmer than it did a minute ago. She is lying in the angle formed between one wall and. . . and the *floor,* which is now--judging by the fact that all the chairs, all the mugs, and her fellow theorists are in a heap at one end of it--tilted severely upwards. Captain Cindy is already standing up, propping herself--up? sideways?--as she walks towards Derannimer. Derannimer decides that maybe she had better try to stand up as well, and starts small by sitting--and whacks her head against something. "Ow!" she exclaims. "What--" "The window ledge," says the Captain briefly. Derannimer slowly gets to her feet, and turns around to see the Captain, standing, indeed, by the window ledge. And by the window. Which now seems to be pointing into the sea. Or, rather, half into the sea. Looking out the window reveals a lot of grey and gently swirling stuff--presumably water--and then a thin line, like a pane of glass edge-on, swaying--presumably the surface of the water--and then. . . well, it's hard to tell. Water droplets cover the upper half of the window to such an extent that Derannimer can't see through it. But the water droplets almost glow with the light caught in them--so that, presumably, is the sky. "The ship is resting sideways in the water," says Derannimer clearly. Gail slowly comes up behind her, and looks out the window also. "Not really sideways," the Captain corrects Derannimer. "If it was dead sideways, *all* that window'd show is water." "Captain," says Derannimer, still speaking very clearly, and slowly. "I do not want to drown." Captain Cindy stares at her incredulously. "*Drown?* You're not going to *drown!* This vessel is eminently sea- worthy!" As if to prove her point, the ship suddenly shudders, and the floor slowly starts to tilt, back towards horizontal. After a minute, the ship stops moving again and rocks slightly. Level. There is a minute of silence among the four now-rather-disheveled theorists. Then the Captain speaks. "On deck." ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> The wind is swift and cold as Derannimer and the others rush out on deck. Spray whips their faces, pulls their hair out behind them, as they run to the railing, to the side of the ship, to try and see It better. It. "Oh my! *Look* at it!" Derannimer hears Eileen exclaim behind her, but she doesn't say anything in response. She is too busy looking. Half the sky has turned to black. Away in the East hangs an enormous, towering mountain of cloud, roiling in the air. Lightning threads through the clounds, rims their edges in fire. A few pinpricks are light are visible against the blackness: SHIPs, Derannimer realizes. When not engaged in combat, the SHIPs retreat into a high orbit around the Bay. "What *is* that," she yells, although she does not know if anyone can hear her over the noise of the wind. Apparently no one can. Eileen's mouth is moving, yelling something, but Derannimer cannot catch her words. She feels someone tugging on her arm and turns; Gail is standing there, and pointing at the wall of the stairwell. The Captain is already standing there. Derannimer nods, and she and Eileen follow Gail over to the stairwell. Here, the wall cut into the wind. Here, it is much quieter. "What is that?" Derannimer asks. "You haven't figured that out yet, huh?" asks the Captain. And *smirks.* Derannimer blinks. How indescribably annoying. "What are you talking about?" she asks the Captain. "A whacking great black thing in the middle of the sky, that somehow managed to half capsize the *boat?* Why are you smirking a-- "*what?*" She has suddenly noticed that Eileen has a very similar smirk upon her face. And that Gail is gazing heavenwards, with an exalting eye. And bouncing happily. "Look, all of y'all," says Derannimer, by now really angr, "would someone please just tell me what is going on?" Eileen looks at her. "Hurricane," she says simply. "Oh. But-- "Oh!" And begins bouncing happily also. ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> A few days later, Derannimer, Captain Cindy, and Gail are sitting in George's Tavern, drinking and watching the rain lash down the windows. (Eileen had excused herself, stating an engagement with Elkins.) "So, Captain," said Gail. "As an experienced sailor-person, how long do you think we've got before it hits?" "Weelll," says the Captain slowly, "I was talking with Elkins and Tabouli about that the other day--you know, the old crowd--and Tabouli reckons that it's moving pretty slowly. We've still got a few months. Of course, every once in a while we'll get tremors--but nothing like the one when it got here. But on the whole, we've still got a few months." Derannimer looks up from her tea, and asks something she's been wondering about since the day the storm came. "What about the SHIPs? With the lightning, and the wind? What's going to happen to them?" "What's going to happen to any of us?" Cindy points out, oddly cheerful. "The lightning and the wind--and the *rain*--gets the SHIPs, the waves get the Bay. This storm's hitting all of us. But hey, we could use the rain." "And anyway," says Gail softly, "what's coming will come" "and we will have to meet it when it does," Derannimer choruses, rolling her eyes. She laughs. "And anyway," continues the Captain, "*we're* all perfectly safe." Gail and Derannimer stare at her. "Bangers," the Captain explains. "The Big Bang is perfectly safe." She leans in closer to her companions, lowers her voice. "Now as for *that* guy," she mutters, jerking a thumb at George, busy polishing glasses behind the bar, "I'm not taking any bets on *him.*" Derannimer (who would miss George) From kristen at sanderson-web.com Sat Jan 18 18:40:00 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (gkjpo ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 18:40:00 -0000 Subject: Sacked? was Re: Sorry?...sacked...Theories to be checked in June In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50056 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali " wrote: > > I would agree that there aren't that many that would add much to the > story... > > Why? > > Percy could be sacked because he failed to alert the MoM to the > suspicious nature of Crouch's disappearance. He was put under > pressure at the end of GoF, and he wasn't allowed to go to the 3rd > task. This would be making Percy a scapegoat for the MoM's failure to > do anything. IMO this is a scenario which is at least plausible, and > could provide Percy with a reason to go to the Darkside. > > Arthur Weasley could be sacked if he's caught stirring up anti- Fudge > sentiment in the MoM. > You are so right. I thought about them after I posted before. I think Percy would be the best one. There has been lots of foreshadowing on his future. Ron casts doubt on his character all over GoF (how he would do anything for Crouch, whether he would turn Fred and George over to the authorities to get ahead, etc...). I guess the main driver for him is who his next boss is (and what happened to Penelope in GoF anyway? she'd straighten him out!). Before this series is over, I believe that Percy will either really be duped by LV or else he will appear to be duped by LV. Me may even be "sorry" about it :). I also think Arthur's a good possibility. It seems that Lucius has Fudge in his back pocket and we know for a fact that he hates Arthur Weasley. At the first sign of any action for Dumbledore's cause, I would imagine that Lucius would try to get rid of those in his path. Personally, I think either of these two is more interesting than the other possibilities. I agree with Heidi that the Dumbledore thing's been done and I think Snape's too obvious. Kristen From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jan 18 18:48:10 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 18:48:10 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging In-Reply-To: <027701c2bddb$ff556830$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50057 Penny: >> If you re-read the conversation, Ron contributes nothing to that solution; [in coS= Harry is thinking out loud and he puts it all together. << Eh? The way I read it, it's Ron who associates the word "pipes" and the bathroom. Harry's lost in thought remembering the voice, and Ron has to grab his arm to get his attention. Harry finishes Ron's sentence as friends often do, but Ron got the idea first. It's also Ron who thinks of using Parseltongue to activate the tap, and Ron who deduces that Ginny was taken because she knew something about the Chamber. As for the conversations with Moody in GoF, though Harry and Hermione work out more plausible scenarios for what happened to Crouch, it happens they are just as wrong as Ron is. Guessing that Crouch had been pulled onto a broom and abducted, as Ron does, is a lot less far-fetched than what actually happened...who knew Moody had killed Crouch, turned him into a bone and buried him in Hagrid's garden? Ron seems to have a hard time remembering that you can't Apparate from the grounds, but then Hermione has the Wrongski Faint thing, and we know she's read QTTA, because she's the one who lent it to Harry in the first place. In Padfoot Returns, it is more like Ron is on the right track and Harry, Sirius and Hermione are ignoring him. Ron keeps returning stubbornly to his conviction that there's some connection between Karkaroff, Crouch and Snape, that there's something important about Snape's office, and that the culprit could be fooling Dumbledore. He's right, but nobody's listening. Penny: > Well, I think encouraging and supporting your partner is completely different from "babying." In fact, I don't think Ron needs babying at all. That's the last thing he needs. What he really needs is to sort out his self-esteem problems and *then* he'll be ready for a romantic relationship with someone like Hermione. At the present though, I think he would need to see himself as the dominant or more successful party<< If dominant successful women turn Ron off, he wouldn't be panting after Fleur. He's obviously appreciative of Madame Rosmerta, who could probably eat him for lunch. And Padma's no doormat. I do admit there's some resentment of Hermione on Ron's behalf in GoF, but I don't think it's because she's becoming a dominant woman. I think it's because she's becoming a woman, period. Ron would have been perfectly happy for her to stay one of the boys, and he resents her for changing, IMO, though it's dawned on him that there are some delightful possibilities in the offing. I think the Trolls remark got made because it honestly *didn't* occur to him that Hermione was a girl herself, not because he didn't care about her feelings. Yeah, he should speak more sensitively whether there are girls present or not. Right, and *we* never need to delete any posts from the MEG list, because we MEGs express ourselves with sensitivity at all times. . Penny: >> Harry is the hero, and so there's that danger of hero-worship for whoever his romantic partners are. But, Hermione would quite clearly not fall into that category, which is one of the many reasons that H/H has always appealed to me. Maybe it's the feminist in me that gets all riled up about R/H. It's been my experience that many R/H'ers have a tendency to focus on Ron's feelings and conclude that because Ron likes her, it's a given that there will be a romance. "But, it's *obvious* that Ron liiiiiiikes her." To which I say a big giant: "So. What." It takes two. <<< Ahem. It's been my experience that many H/H'ers have a tendency to focus on Harry's situation and conclude that because Harry depends on her, it's a given that there will be romance. "But it's *obvious* that Harry neeeeeeeeeeeeds her." To which I say a big giant:"So. What." It takes two. Yes, she knows Harry and she adores putting her considerable knowledge and skills at Harry's disposal. Yes, she knows the real boy and she likes him. To which I also say: So. What. What is she supposed to get out of it all? Why does she need *him*? Romantically, I mean. What encouragement and support has he offered *her*? Except in the general way of saving her from bad guys, but that's being a hero, and I'm told that's not what H/H is about . Yes, he's famous, so she won't ever have to worry about overshadowing him. But why should she have to worry about that in the first place? Is there some reason a woman shouldn't be the dominant partner? And while I don't expect Harry would be impressed by anyone who was star-struck and simpering, (when has Ginny ever simpered, anyway?) what's wrong with being adored? Yeah, Ginny will have a hard time convincing Harry that she adores him, not the Boy Who Lived, if that ever becomes the case. But I'm not convinced that Hermione adores Harry as much as she adores Fighting the Good Fight. Does she talk to Viktor about Harry because Harry excites her, or because Harry and Quidditch is a safer topic than the Trio's adventures, which are mostly secret. She's not going to tell Viktor about saving Sirius, or setting Snape on fire, or the time she turned herself into a catperson while trying to illegally enter the Slytherin Common Room, now is she? Pippin From bebche2 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 18 18:50:00 2003 From: bebche2 at yahoo.com (Peter Shea) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 10:50:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Coming Deaths in HP5, 6, and 7 Message-ID: <20030118185000.31512.qmail@web20304.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50058 In that BBC interview that was cited as possible evidence of an H/H ship, Rowling made it clear that more death is to follow, including one that will be "horrible" to write. Though it isn't pleasant to dwell upon death, I can't help but speculate. Here are my thoughts upon who may or may not die. Harry - Virtually impossible. Can't have a series without Potter. He will continue to suffer, but no real physical harm ill come to him. Even in book seven, it is unlikely to Harry die since it would end the series on a serious downer note, which I don't think Rowling would do. Hermione - Hermione provides a necessary gender balance in the stories. Without her, the narrative would seem uneven. This doesn't mean that she couldn't die but as the main female character, she has a variation of the protection which is extended to Harry by the gods of fiction. Ron - Interesting possibility. I shudder at the prospect, but it is within the bounds of probability. Ron's great strength is his loyalty (when it isn't dampened by resentment of Harry's status). This would be a death that would be indeed "horrible" to write. And it would emphasize the theme of loss which has been in the series since the beginning. Hagrid - Very possible. Hagrid fulfills the function of the "Holy fool" someone who can be simple but loving in a way that eludes more sophisticated people. Such characters often function as "Christ surrogates" in fiction, being sacrificed to bring others to awareness and redemption. Dumbledore - Again, very possible. Again another fiction motif is the death/sacrifice of the patriarch figure in order to bring about the maturation of the sons. The Weasley Family - With the return of Voldemort, the Wizard world will be in a state of war. Since everyone will be called on the participate in some way, the size of the Weasley family (and their closeness to Harry) make it probable that someone in their ranks will fall. Hogwarts Faculty - I don't see anything to suggest whether McGonagall lives or dies. At the end of GoF there is an implication that Snape will undertake a dangerous assignment. But he serves as a useful counterweight in the story to the more supportive faculty. Like Hermione, it would risk an imbalance liminating him. Students - Likely. Cedric Diggory's fate may be interpreted as a foreshadowing of the sacrifices that Hogwarts will make before Voldemort is put down for good. As for Draco Malfoy, he is too useful as evil counterpart to Harry, providing a useful contrast. Besides, only the good die young. The Old Crowd - Sirius Black, Remus Lupin, Arabella Figg. Quite possible. Peter the Couch Elf --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 18 19:09:17 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 11:09:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore gets sacked? In-Reply-To: <200301181815.h0IIFJHM027979@BlackBerry.NET> Message-ID: <20030118190917.23537.qmail@web20009.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50059 --- Heidi Tandy wrote: > But as a few others have said, Dumbledore's already > been sacked once -in a way - back in CoS. To do it > again might feel redundent or like overkill, imho. Percy and Arthur are in positions where they might get fired; especially if they are vocal about disagree with the Ministry's stance. They don't work at Hogwarts, so they don't have an understanding boss. Rebeca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sat Jan 18 19:21:36 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 19:21:36 -0000 Subject: We'll Make A Man Out Of You (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50060 We'll Make A Man Out Of You (PoA, Chap. 19) To the tune of I'll Make A Man Out Of You, from Disney's Mulan Dedicated to Amy Z Hear a MIDI at: http://www.dismusic.com/allmidi.htm THE SCENE: The Shrieking Shack. With Snape out of the way, LUPIN has had enough of argumentative prose LUPIN (spoken, with steel in his voice): Enough of this - there's one certain way to prove what really happened. Ron, give me that rat. (Ron reluctantly hands a hysterical Scabbers over to LUPIN) LUPIN (music, to Scabbers) Let's get down to business ? don't think you can run! You betrayed the Potters, tried to kill their son You're the biggest rat there ever was But you can bet before we're through Scabbers, we'll make a man out of you BLACK (to LUPIN, with eyes blazing) Friendship is restored us We're a team again Once we prove it's Peter My amnesty begins See this squeaky, weak Animagic pet Just a slave of You-Know-Who (to Scabbers) And now we'll make a man out of you LUPIN & BLACK Are we ready to use our wands? On the count of three ? One ? Two ? THREE! That rat's redefined now in our blinding light This shows how we all were conned It looks just like Peter to me PETTIGREW (cowering in fear) Hello, my old friends, this is such a delight LUPIN & BLACK and (TRIO) (Pettigrew) We must have us a little chat now (Pettigrew) About that night that the Potters died (Pettigrew) He/I trusted him to be Secret Keeper More devious than the wicked Mr. Hyde (LUPIN & BLACK raise their wands, preparing to kill PETTIGREW. HARRY throws himself in front of their intended target) HARRY Though you want to slay him to avenge my folks Do not commit murder, mercy I evoke Sublime justice must go amiss In courtrooms of kangeroo LUPIN & BLACK (lowering their wands) Harry, this makes a man out of you (LUPIN & BLACK) and TRIO (Pettigrew) We must be stern with this former rodent (Pettigrew) Sold his soul to Voldy's syndrome (Pettigrew) Now he shall face the dementors' ire And with Sirius, I/You will find a brand new home (Peter is securely bound, and the Chorus is repeated as all exit) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 18 19:26:53 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 19:26:53 -0000 Subject: Hagrid the Gamekeeper AND Re: I Don't See a Problem with Ogg In-Reply-To: <1a4.f795398.2b5ae241@cs.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50061 > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve " wrote: > Okay, nobody else is posting so, let me ask a few question about > OGG - the GroundKeeper as his > mention in the book relates to Arther and Molly's age. > > Frankly, I never saw any controversy here. Although, the Lexicon > has it built up to the point where they speculate there are Two > Timelines running. > > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/puzzles2.html > > To read the article, select the above ling and go to the subject > heading "When did Arthur and Molly Weasley attend Hogwarts?" > > A brief quote from the article- > " ...Molly Weasley fondly recalls a man named Ogg being the > groundskeeper when she went to Hogwarts. Now she's older than > Sirius and Lupin, granted, but not so much older that she would > have gone to Hogwarts before Hagrid and Tom Riddle, which was > fifty years ago. ..." No, no, no, no, NO! This is one of the rare occasions where the Lexicon has just plain got it wrong. The Lexicon's argument that 'After Hagrid was expelled, however, he was given the groundskeeper position.' is *not* what the book says. What is said in CoS is [Dumbledore]...persuaded Dippet to keep Hagrid and *train* him as gamekeeper.' [CoS UK paperback, p.230, Ch.17] 13 (or 14) year old boys do not get given the job of Gamekeeper/Groundskeeper for a place as big as Hogwarts. They wouldn't know where to start! Training as a gamekeeper/groundskeeper in the Muggle world usually takes several years. The usual progression is apprentice/trainee, then under keeper, then gamekeeper. If you want to see a web page about careers in UK gamekeeping, try http://www.sparsholt.ac.uk/gwcareers.htm For example; the National Diploma in Game and Wildlife Management is a full time academic course of two years. Students are advised to have had *at least* one year's practical experience before taking the course. They also often 'sandwich' the course; taking one year academics, a one year internship, and then the final year academics. It's probably the closest muggle equivalent to the type of training Hagrid would need, and if you add up the years required, you see that a gamekeeper will have had four years training before he/she can even *think* about getting beyond assistant. And that's when they've left school at sixteen, which Hagrid didn't. Hagrid would probably have needed extra tuition in things like Care of Magical Creatures to bring him up to the right level. Hagrid's remit includes the Forbidden Forest and it's assorted magical creatures, as well as the 'maintained' grounds of Hogwarts. He'd need to know: - Pest and predator control, Estate skills, Habitat conservation, Fishery or Water management (for the lake and its Giant Squid, assorted Merpeople ...), Trees, Woods & Forbidden Forests management, plus the Care of Magical Creatures, etc, etc, etc.. Grrr... Hagrid does not have a soft, easy job that he could have just walked into at 13. He has a highly skilled job that probably required as many years of training as staying on at school would have done. Anyway, moving on to the 'Molly and Arthur's ages' problem: Bboy: > I don't see any reason to think that Arther and Molly couldn't have > been in their Senior year of school or perhaps just out of school > when Hagrid was expelled. >Kaesa: Couldn't Ogg have > been still training him when they went to school? Pip: I would, like Kaesa, think Hagrid was still being trained. I'd strain to believe that Hagrid could have become *the* Gamekeeper/Groundskeeper before he was 20, which would normally be the absolute minimum. This would have given him seven years training/experience, reasonable enough. Given that Hagrid was expelled 52 years (ish) before Molly reminisces about Ogg, this means Ogg was *likely* to have been Gamekeeper/Groundskeeper 45 years ago (and very likely longer; 20 would be young for a sole gamekeeper position). The line in GoF reads: [Molly] 'reminisced at length about the gamekeeper before Hagrid, a man called Ogg'. So Molly could well have been at school during the 'switchover' period, where Hagrid replaced Ogg as gamekeeper. Certainly she knows Ogg is the gamekeeper *before* Hagrid. If you assume Hagrid replaced Ogg at 20, when Molly was in her 7th year, then Molly would be 17/18 + 45 or 62, 63 in GoF. Given that her youngest child is 13, that would be a perfectly reasonable age; she'd have had Ginny at 50. Muggles have been known to have kids at 50; I doubt a longer living witch would have major problems. The only problem with this scenario is that Molly and Arthur *would* have been at school with Tom Riddle, and there's nothing in canon that implies that. What is more likely is a) Hagrid took over the gamekeepers position when he was older than 20 (entirely reasonable) or b) the switchover from Ogg to Hagrid took place when Molly was in a lower year than the 7th, say the 3rd. Ogg may have been such a 'character' that anyone then at Hogwarts remembers him vividly. If Molly entered school the year *after* Tom Riddle graduated, she'd have never met Riddle, but the gamekeeper would still have been Ogg, as Hagrid would still be only two years or so into his training. Pip!Squeak From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sat Jan 18 19:34:09 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 19:34:09 -0000 Subject: Sacked? was Re: Sorry?...sacked...Theories to be checked in June In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50062 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gkjpo " > wrote: > > > > On the information we have so far, Dumbledore must be a prime > candidate to be sacked. In the "Parting of Ways", Fudge says that he > will be "In touch" to discuss the running of the school. This could > be a euphemism for what Fudge actually has in mind. A school boy > death, suspicions surrounding Harry plus Dumbledore's standing up to > Fudge could all provide ammunition to dismiss DD. This would > certainly have an affect on Harry's hero's journey. > what about Cornelius Fudge being sacked? He strikes me as prime retirement-bait. The Wizarding World is sure to be shocked and outraged when they become of Voldemort's return and Fudge's failure to prepare for it. Fudge reigns through a more or less democratic system, and even in the era of prosperity that exists through Book Four, his hold on power has always seemed tentative at best. BTW, I dismiss the FIE (Fudge is Evil) in favor of my own acronym, FRUITLESS (Fudge Really is a Useful Idiot, a Tool of a Lord who is Evil, Scheming and Snaky). "Useful idiot" was a term often used by Lenin, I believe. - CMC - CMC From amani at charter.net Sat Jan 18 19:42:26 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 14:42:26 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cursing Draco on the Train References: <11b.1cd78e8d.2b58a03f@aol.com> Message-ID: <001701c2bf29$ba9cd580$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50063 Oryomai: I've been thinking about that (how Harry & Co. cursed Draco and his coterie)....why didn't they get in trouble? I can't imagine that the Malfoys didn't complain about this. Draco would've said something to his father, at the very least "That filthy little Mudblood!" or something..... Will Ron, Harry, Hermione, Fred, and George get in trouble for that? I can't imagine that Hogwarts would want to condone that type of thing.... Me: But /would/ he really tell his father? Tell him that he was, once again, not good enough? That he was beaten by a mudblood, some Weasley's, and Potter (/again/)? No, if I was Draco and had a father like Lucius, I'd keep it to myself. I wouldn't be sharing that kind of defeat with Lucius. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sat Jan 18 20:01:45 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 12:01:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Evil!Lupin explains it all for you In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030118200145.29378.qmail@web40506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50064 "pippin_999 " wrote: <. So, if you're saying that he used his behavior to feel guilty when really he was masking with this guilt the guilt he was feeling because he just plain hated himself (Beg pardon for mutilating the English language :) ), which is what I think you are saying, I don't agree. <. I hope there will be a lot of Lupin in OoP, and I hope your theory doesn't turn out to be true. BTW, I posted replies to Pippin's theory recently and they are messages http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/49445 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/49536 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/49597 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/49749 Also, here are some more messages (not written by me) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/49526 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/49567 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/49668 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/49702 Regards, Maria, who thinks Lupin made mistakes, but is essentially a good person. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 18 20:14:01 2003 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82 ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 20:14:01 -0000 Subject: Sacked? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50065 I've been following the threads on who will be sacked and seen all the speculation from Dumbledore to Snape and from Arthur to Percy. And I was wondering whether it could be Vernon who gets sacked? He's already managed to lose the deal with the Masons and I was wondering if another misshap like that could lead to his expelsion from the Drill company he works for. Michelle From gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 18 19:29:34 2003 From: gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com (gingersnape1966 ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 19:29:34 -0000 Subject: Witchcraft and Wizardry: What do they teach at Hogwarts???? In-Reply-To: <720896F0GEC65B794EB6WUXVQNJGB.3e28a770@tk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50066 In the discussoin of why JKR used "School of Witchcraft and Wizardry" rather than just "School of Magic", and the related possible gender differences we can infer, Torsten wrote: > > Maybe the founders were ahead of their time ... In countries whose languages more > often make a difference between male and female, there has been that (rather silly) > tendency in recent years to talk about, for example, "female teachers and male > teachers" instead of the plain term which usually is the male one. > If Hogwarts were a "School for Wizardry", feminist witches might have started > complaining about the "discriminating" name by now. ^_~ > Me: Ya know, Torsten, I think you are on the right track. The Wizarding world is very ahead of its time (even for now) in having few of the prejudices that we have on our world, but it is full of its own (Pureblood vs. Muggles; Werewolves, Giants, etc.). Perhaps Hogwarts was founded in a time when the WW was not so enlightened. Maybe other schools in other countries were all male, and Hogwarts chose "Witchcraft and Wizardry" to show that both genders were indeed included. I wish I could think of the exact quote I once heard, but it goes something like this: People, by nature, will fight about anything that makes them and their kind seem the better. They will fight about race; but if they are the same race, they will fight about religion; but if they are all the same religion, they will fight about gender; but if they are all the same gender... well, then, we won't have to worry about them for long, now, will we? Can't remember where I heard it, but it amused me and it does ring true of the WW compared to ours. 5 months, 3 days, Ginger From sgarfio at yahoo.com Sat Jan 18 20:27:24 2003 From: sgarfio at yahoo.com (Sherry Garfio) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 12:27:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid/the Chamber/the Monster In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030118202724.57882.qmail@web21402.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50067 I wrote: > I think they all assumed that it was Aragog instead of the Slytherin monster - > all except Dumbledore, of course, and maybe McGonagall. I get this impression > from McGonagall's explanation of the "legend", in which she says that the > legend is assumed to be false, but she doesn't ever say that *she* thinks it's > false. She says that the castle has been searched many times and nothing has > been found, which is a nice way of telling ickle children not to worry, the > world is fine and dandy, when the adults know darn well that isn't true. And Michelle corrected me: > Sorry but McGonagall only explains the Chamber of Secrets to the > students in the Movie IIRC It was Professor Binns that told/ > explained the legend to the class in the actual book and IIRC he > seemed to think the idea of there being a Chamber as quite rubbish as > the castle had been searched by many Headmasters/ mistresses and > hadn't been found and if there was one he thought that it would have > already been fund. Gah! Damn movie tainting! You are quite right. I really need to buy a set of books for the office... Professor Binns obviously believes that there is no Chamber, so he also probably accepts the Ministry's finding and that it was Aragog *instead* of the Chamber monster that attacked the students 50 years ago. I still say McGonagall knows the truth, though, for in the hospital wing when they are bringing Colin in, the following exchange takes place (this time with book in hand ;-): Ch. 10, "The Rogue Bludger", p. 135-6 UK PB: ************************************ 'What does this *mean*, Albus?' Professor McGonagall asked urgently. 'It means,' said Dumbledore, 'that the Chamber of Secrets is indeed open again.' Madam Pomfrey clapped a hand to her mouth. Professor McGonagall stared at Dumbledore. 'But Albus... surely... *who*?' 'The question is not *who*,' said Dumbledore, his eyes on Colin. 'The question is, *how*...' And from what Harry could see of Professor McGonagall's shadowy face, she didn't understand this any better than he did. ************************************ Notice that McGonagall doesn't say anything like, "Surely you don't believe that rubbish, Albus?" or, "The Chamber of Secrets? But I was *sure* it was only a legend..." She simply jumps to the question of *who* has opened it, implying that she already accepts the Chamber's existence as fact. Nor does she question Dumbledore's implication that the Chamber has been opened before, so I don't think she accepted the Ministry's finding 50 years ago. Madam Pomfrey doesn't seem to think this is news either, so I would add her to the list of believers. Now that you've called me out on the movie-tainting and forced me to go back and look this stuff up, another thing strikes me about this conversation. Dumbledore seems to already know who has opened the Chamber ('the question is not *who*'), and the only question in his mind is how Voldemort is doing it this time. This also brings up the question of what Lucius knows and what he pretends to know. Ch. 18, "Dobby's Reward", p. 246 UK PB: ************************************ 'So - have you stopped the attacks yet?' [Lucius] sneered. 'Have you caught the culprit?' 'We have,' said Dumbledore, with a smile. '*Well*?' said Mr Malfoy sharply. 'Who is it?' 'The same person as last time, Lucius,' said Dumbledore. 'But this time, Lord Voldemort was acting through somebody else. By means of this diary.' 'I see...' said Mr Malfoy slowly to Dumbledore. ************************************ Dumbledore leaves no room for doubt about who he is refering to when he says 'The same person as last time'. And yet Lucius simply replies, 'I see...'. The official story last time was that it was Hagrid's pet, yet the only thing causing Lucius any consternation during this exchange is the diary and how it will implicate him, and possibly the fact that his plan has failed. Lucius seems to know the truth, and he probably wasn't even born yet when it happened, which means he found out some other way, probably from Voldemort himself, or from the diary. My, but he *is* a slippery character, isn't he? Sherry ===== "The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above-average drivers." -Dave Barry, "Things That It Took Me 50 Years to Learn" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Sat Jan 18 20:39:35 2003 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 20:39:35 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sacked? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50068 "Mitch: And I was wondering whether it could be Vernon who gets sacked? He's already managed to lose the deal with the Masons and I was wondering if another misshap like that could lead to his expelsion from the Drill company he works for." Oh, thats a loverly suprise for the Dursleys (goes into fits of laughter)did JKR not hint at a nasty suprise for them? How would Duddykins react to being unable to have whatever he wanted and would they not just thow harry out? Perhaps Dumbledore will offer them money if they treat harry properly - and then leave it to Harry to decide if they get that money. I could imagine Petunia begging Harry to give them the money and Harry saying "No". Heh Heh Heh Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Jan 18 20:44:38 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 20:44:38 -0000 Subject: Hagrid the Gamekeeper AND Re: I Don't See a Problem with Ogg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50069 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve " > wrote: > > Okay, nobody else is posting so, let me ask a few question about > > OGG - the GroundKeeper as his mention in the book relates to > > Arther and Molly's age. > > > > Frankly, I never saw any controversy here. ...edited... > > - - - - - - - - > PIP: > > No, no, no, no, NO! > This is one of the rare occasions where the Lexicon has just plain > got it wrong. > > ...big edit... > > Hagrid does not have a soft, easy job that he could have just walked > into at 13. > > > Anyway, moving on to the 'Molly and Arthur's ages' problem: > Bboy: (Pip Quotes Me) > > I don't see any reason to think that Arther and Molly couldn't > > have been in their Senior year of school or perhaps just out of > > school when Hagrid was expelled. > > >Pip quotes Kaesa: > Couldn't Ogg have been still training him when they went to school? > > Pip: > > ...edited... > > If you assume Hagrid replaced Ogg at 20, when Molly was in her 7th > year, then Molly would be 17/18 + 45 or 62, 63 in GoF. > -end Pip-this part- bboy_mn replies: Thank you very much. We can make Molly older or younger than Hagrid. If we go with younger, then I think Molly (and Arthur) could be 2 to 5 years younger than Hagrid. It's possible, if Ogg wasn't too keen on retiring that Hagrid's training period went on for 10 years, but after a certain number of years Hagrid's presents would have become more prominent, and it would have been unusual for Molly to mention Ogg without mentioning Hagrid. So I concluded, if we assume Molly is younger than Hagrid, that her memories of Ogg would have had to have been early in Hagrid's training period. So it would be during the first 2 years of a five year training at which time Hagrid would be 18. Or the first 5 years of a ten year training period (Hagrid at 23). That's how I reached the conclusion that Molly was 2 to 5 years younger than Hagrid. In CoS Hagrid is 63 (13 + 50), when Molly speaks of Ogg on GoF, Hagrid is 65. So, 2 to 5 years younger than Hagrid, would make Molly between 60 and 63 during GoF. The same conclusion you reached. That would mean Molly had Bill when she was 30 to 33, and she had Ginny when she was between 47 and 50. All quite possible given that a 50 year old witch has the vitality of someone in their 20's. And once again, we agree on Molly's age. -bboy_mn-end this part- > Pip continues: > ...edited... > > The only problem with this scenario is that Molly and Arthur *would* > have been at school with Tom Riddle, and there's nothing in canon > that implies that. > > ...edited... > > If Molly entered school the year *after* Tom Riddle graduated, she'd > have never met Riddle, but the gamekeeper would still have been Ogg, > as Hagrid would still be only two years or so into his training. > > Pip!Squeak bboy_mn: I have no problem with Riddle and Molly being in school together. If there was an overlap, Riddle would have been an upperclassman in a different house. So they would have had little or no interaction with each other. We do not see Harry/Ron/Hermione interacting that much with upper and lower classmates. Harry's main association with older students is through Quidditch and the Weasleys. His interaction with younger classmates seems limited to Colin. We must also keep in mind that not very many people know that the brilliant handsome Riddle is really the nasty snake-like Voldemort. In my original analysis, I chose to make Molly older than Hagrid, and I stand by that analysis, and see it as viable. But I think more people would try to find a way to reconcile the problem while making Molly younger. So, I'm fine with that analysis too. Let's factor McGonagall into the equation. In GoF, Molly is 60 to 63, and McGonagall (according to the Lexicon timeline) would be 75. That would mean they did not go to school together and would explain why they don't seem more familiar with each other. In conclusion, having analysed it from two different perspectives, I still see no problem with Ogg, and I have no problem seeing Molly and Arthur in their 60's. Certainly, Molly being between 60 and 70 makes more sense a two fractured timelines overlaping. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. bboy_mn From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sat Jan 18 20:58:03 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 12:58:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore gets sacked? In-Reply-To: <200301181815.h0IIFJHM027979@BlackBerry.NET> Message-ID: <20030118205803.20944.qmail@web40514.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50070 Chris: <) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 21:09:00 -0000 Subject: I Don't See a Problem with OGG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50071 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "btk6y " wrote: > 1) You haven't really addressed the issue raised in the previous > message that if Arthur and Molly are 70 they would have had their > first child 30 years after Hogwarts, which intuitively doesn't make > sense to me, although there is no definitive reason to say that is > could not have happened. > -end this part- bboy_mn: I think I did address the issue, although I will admit I didn't put much emphasis on the point you are raising. I focused on the 100/200 half age issue. -bboy_mn-end this part- btk6y continues: > 2) We really can't use the 100/200 comparison because it is not > really "rounding off". Average human life span is about 75-ish, > making wizarding life span about 150 years. ...edited... > -end this part- bboy_mn: Not quite. I spoke of "potential lifespan". If the average is 75 then half the people live to be older than 75. In fact, many people make it into their 80's and 90's with a few people (more all the time) reaching +100. So, I would estimate the potential lifespan of a person at about 120. Extremely, extremely rare that anyone lives longer than 120. So in a sense, 120 year is your 'cash' in the life bank when you are born. Bad luck, bad genetics, bad choice, bad living all consume some of that life-cash. Have good luck and live well, and you will make it close to 100. So for simplicity of arithmatic, I chose an even 100. Dumbledore is +150, he's healthy and active, and seems in no danger of dying of natural causes. Given his current health and vitality plus some good luck, and he could live close to 200, and I suspect very lucky healthy wizards could make it over 200. But the 100/200 was easy. -bboy_mn-end this part- > btk6y continues: > 3) Really what makes the whole Molly/Arthur thing weird for me is > that it would mean that they are the same age as McGonagall, > ...edited... > -end this part- bboy_mn: Using my original analysis, it's since been revised, that would make McGonagall 75 and Molly 70. That separates them by 5 years in school. Certainly Molly may have known who McGonagall was, but it is unlikely that they associated much. How many 5th years did H/H/R associate with or even know during their first year in school? The various grade level don't seem to interact very much, and a 5 year gap would make them socially very distant. So, I've got no problem with them being in school together, and yet not being close friends. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Jan 18 21:20:47 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 21:20:47 -0000 Subject: Witchcraft and Wizardry: What do they teach at Hogwarts???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50072 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cantoramy " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sophineclaire > " wrote: > > I've been thinking about this for a couple of days. > > Hogwarts has the sub-title of being a school for Witchcraft and > > Wizardry. ...edited... > > > IMO, from a literary sense, the phrase "school of magic" doesn't > evoke the same mystery as "school of witchcraft and wizardy." > ...edited... > > I think this reveals why JKR is such an appealing author. > ...edited... > > Just a thought. > > cantoramy bboy_mn: I agree, if you got an invitation to a 'magic school', you could easily think it was a stage magicians school. A place where some guy would teach your kids to perform card tricks at parties. Not very appealing. But 'School of Witchcraft and Wizardry', leaves little doubt, and it does sound very grand and majestic. Plus we hear it very early in the series, so not only is it Harry's introduction, it is our introduction to the school. So the name is meant to impress us as much as it is meant to impress Harry. As a side note: Did you know that there are 150 muggle magical societies in Britain. Some of the oldest in the world. And, that Prince Charles is a practicing magician. He belongs to the Magic Circle magical society and to maintain his membership he has to give at least one performance a year. I think it's entirely possible that there are some wizards hiddden in the Windsor family tree. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From jferer at yahoo.com Sat Jan 18 22:05:24 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 22:05:24 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50073 Pippin:"Eh? The way I read it, it's Ron who associates the word "pipes" and the bathroom. Harry's lost in thought remembering the voice, and Ron has to grab his arm to get his attention. Harry finishes Ron's sentence as friends often do, but Ron got the idea first. It's also Ron who thinks of using Parseltongue to activate the tap, and Ron who deduces that Ginny was taken because she knew something about the Chamber." However you see Ron's role in Chamber of Secrets, it points up that his role in Azkaban and Goblet of Fire is less. In Prisoner of Azkaban, Ron is a loyal friend but not present for significant parts of the action (through no fault of his own; no dispute there) In Goblet of Fire, Hermione prepares Harry, researching dozens of spells and hexes, coaching and pushing him relentlessly (which good coaches do), providing a lot of the underpinning of his success. Ron is even out of the picture for the First Task by reason of their alienation. Most of the time, though, Ron helps as he can, but he is the third of three. But a lot of this is beside my point, anyway. Ron doesn't need defending as a person. He's a good kid, and I can't think but well of a Weasley. That's the whole point: Ron Weasley is a good kid from a loving family with great parents; he only suffers by comparison with Mr. Phenom and Miss Overachiever (thank you, Penny, for the perfect Hermione label). So Ron doesn't need defending, nor is it an attack that he and Hermione aren't suited for a long term relationship, especially compared to Harry and Hermione. Penny:"At the present though, I think he [Ron] would need to see himself as the dominant or more successful party" Pippin:"If dominant successful women turn Ron off, he wouldn't be panting after Fleur. He's obviously appreciative of Madame Rosmerta, who could probably eat him for lunch. And Padma's no doormat." Somehow I don't think Ron has stopped to considered the power relationships with respect to Fleur Delacour. Fleur's veelahood appeals to him on a much more basic level. And Mrs. Robinson, er, sorry, Madame Rosmerta? I feel sure his appreciation of her is made of the same stuff as my crush on Annette Funicello when I was seven. (Yes, members, I *am* older than dirt.) And his brief, very brief, relationship with Padma didn't go well, although it had nothing to do with dominance on either side. Ron was just being a churlish adolescent male oaf that night, and it shouldn't count against him or Harry, who wasn't a great date either. Pippin:"Yes, she knows Harry and she adores putting her considerable knowledge and skills at Harry's disposal. Yes, she knows the real boy and she likes him. To which I also say: So. What. What is she supposed to get out of it all? Why does she need *him*? Romantically, I mean. What encouragement and support has he offered *her*? Except in the general way of saving her from bad guys, but that's being a hero, and I'm told that's not what H/H is about" You're right, it's not about Harry being a hero, it's about them being on a heroic quest together. Harry/Hermione is about a partnership of great intensity over time, a symbiotic duo. Hermione gets a great deal out of it all. I submit to you that her phenomenal growth in this series is due to what she's been through with Harry; if she hadn't been his friend, she wouldn't be the person she is today. Instead, she might be Percy times ten. Those two are so close already, and they both get a lot out of the relationship. The beauty of a potential Harry/Hermione pairing is that she will never melt into goo over him. She doesn't 'adore' him, either, except perhaps someday, as a feeling arrived at over time, which makes it a feeling of depth and permanence. That's why this is *not*, repeat *not*, The Hero Gets the Girl. That's when the decorative and helpless damsel falls into the arms of her rescuer. Not here! Without Ron, Harry and Hermione could still be working together the way they are now. Without Harry, Ron and Hermione would be classmates. So, I really trashed Ron here, no? NO. Like all of us, he's got baggage, and it happens I think his baggage is the exact wrong baggage for a strong ambitious young woman like Hermione. Ron is not especially ambitious; he wants to lead a decent life as a decent man like his father has and find comfortable, supportive love for himself and the kids he'll have someday. He needs a woman who likes and expects the same thing, and that's not Hermione. Harry would not be as ambitious as Hermione either, actually; he craves normality, which his best friend Ron provides. He is being transformed by his experiences. He will be among the great and will be raised high for it ("We honor the wise but elevate the brave") whether he wants it or not. He needs a mate who can handle that. You can argue that, wounded as he will be if he survives, he will need comfort, loyalty, practical love and supportive understanding (Ginny, perhaps) or maybe he needs someone with complete understanding of what he's been through, who will nevertheless challenge him back to health (Hermione). Ron, Harry, and Hermione will be friends forever, I hope. I believe two of them are suited as lifemates. Jim Ferer, who wishes he knew three of the most interesting characters in literature From kdoucette at gt.rr.com Sat Jan 18 19:47:43 2003 From: kdoucette at gt.rr.com (Kayla ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 19:47:43 -0000 Subject: Harry's Summer Job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50074 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dave Williams" wrote: > ---Debbie McLain writes: > > I have repeatedly thought that Harry would get a job a the local > > corner drugstore ... It would be run by a man called PapaJoe > > Well, apart from the fact that drugstore's don't exist in England in quite > the same way as the U.S. But maybe a chemist. Although I wouldn't be > surprised if one has to be 18 to work in a Chemist. Oh and no one calls > anyone Papa in the UK. Unless one is being ironic? :) But anything's > possible Debbie. :) > > Imho, it is Dudley lying in the garden. :) Remember where you heard it > first. :) I don't have any evidence for this, just a strong gut feeling. > -- > Dave W > It's JK's ball, we're just playing with it. I'm going to have to disagree with you about Harry getting a summer job. I really don't think that Uncle Vernon & Aunt Petunia would allow Harry to "be in the public's eye" (they're ashamed of him, remember?). And as far as Dudley lying in the garden----I don't believe he'll be able to pick himself up from a lying position, since his diet probably isn't working!! ha,ha Just some thoughts! Kayla From sophiamcl at hotmail.com Sat Jan 18 21:11:12 2003 From: sophiamcl at hotmail.com (sophiamcl ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 21:11:12 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50075 -Scott: (who thinks that Hermione WILL end up with Harry, if not just because it sets the stage perfectly for Ron's betrayal of Harry, followed by his subsequent redemption when he sacrifices his life to save Harry's. Or is that too obvious?) Me: You know, Rowling once said (though I can't supply the exact source just now), that her favourite ever ending of a book was that of Dickens's "A Tale of Two Cities." In the book, two men are in love with the same woman, one of which (her husband and love of her life) is sentenced to be BEHEADED (yes, that's right) for a crime he didn't commit. The other man, a friend of the family, arranges at the last moment to take the husbands place and be beheaded in his stead out of love for her. Could we make something of that? Sophia From enchanted at pacbell.net Sat Jan 18 22:17:00 2003 From: enchanted at pacbell.net (Enchanted) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 14:17:00 -0800 Subject: Voldemort / Kostchei interesting parallel. Message-ID: <02bd01c2bf3f$5ee25010$3b0afea9@family> No: HPFGUIDX 50076 There is a Russian tale in which Kostchei the deathless, an evil wizard has imprisoned 9 maidens. All who have tried to save the maidens have been turned to stone (petrified) by looking into Kostchei's eyes (the Basilisk controlled by Voldemort). Prince Ivan is hunting in the woods one day and wanders into the lands where the 9 maidens are being held captive. He spies a firebird (phoenix), who he captures. The phoenix gives prince Ivan one of his feathers (the feather in Harry's wand) and promises to help him in his hour of need, if prince Ivan releases him. After prince Ivan releases the firebird, he finds the place where the maidens are held. They warn him, but he stands his ground and is shortly attacked by many of Kostchei's demons (death eaters) He remembers the feather that the firebird gave him (the feather in Harry's wand) and waves it around. The demons run from him, but soon the feather begins to lose it's light and the demons begin to advance again. Prince Ivan waves the feather and calls out to the firebird for help. The firebird immediately swoops in and drops a sword at prince Ivan's feet (the sword of Gryffindor) Prince Ivan defeats the demons and soon must face Kostchei. He remembers not to look Kostchei in the eyes and he runs Kostchei through with the sword, killing Kostchei the deathless. I find it very interesting that there are so many parallels in these stories. The story of the firebird is an old Russian tale with a long history and many variations, but this one is the tale which I found most intriguing. "Enchanted" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sat Jan 18 22:50:34 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 22:50:34 -0000 Subject: Voldemort / Kostchei interesting parallel. In-Reply-To: <02bd01c2bf3f$5ee25010$3b0afea9@family> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50077 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Enchanted" wrote: > There is a Russian tale in which Kostchei the deathless, an evil wizard has imprisoned 9 maidens. All who have tried to save the maidens have been turned to stone (petrified) by looking into Kostchei's eyes (the Basilisk controlled by Voldemort). Now I know how Tom Riddle must have felt when forcefully reminded of the properties of Phoenix tears. I've known Igor Stravinsky's 1910 ballet score L'Osieau de Feu, which is derived from this vrey legend, for years but I never connected with Harry Potter. Thanks for making the link! - CMC From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sat Jan 18 23:59:10 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 23:59:10 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry/Ginny (Was: Ron's contribution) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50078 Pippin wrote: >>Ginny would already melt into a pile of goo if Harry looked at her. I don't like H/H either, Pippin ? we agree here . But I don't think I like Harry with anyone. I remember that I got very mad the second I read the line "She was shorter than Harry by about a head, and Harry couldn't help noticing, nervous as he was, that she was extremely pretty. She smiled at Harry as the teams faced each other behind their captains, and he felt a slight lurch in the region of his stomach that he didn't think had anything to do with nerves." (PoA, "GRYFFINDOR VERSUS RAVENCLAW") . I don't know why - it's *not* because I want Harry for myself , or have a specific preference for whom he will end up with, but since then I've always disliked Cho Chang (do you think it might be because she's not from Gryffindor? I wonder...). I don't think I would mind Harry/Ginny, however, although I probably won't know exactly until something happens. But Ginny *does not* melt into a pile of goo anytime Harry looks at her anymore. Yes, she was infatuated with him in CoS and the beginning of PoA, but in GoF she was definitely on equal footing with him, although it was obvious that she still liked him (when Harry asked her to the Yule Ball and she was already going with Neville). Ginny grew up and out of her little-girl crush. Penny wrote: >>Ginny would hero-worship Harry from appearances so far (it appears >>that her crush is based on "The Boy Who Lived," rather than Harry >>Potter, real boy). Ginny's crush *was* based on "The Boy Who Lived" in the beginning, but after CoS Harry suddenly became "The Boy Who Risked His Own Life To Save Hers" rather than "The Boy Who Lived." This is *not* hero- worshipping from appearances only, and Harry-who-risks-his-life *is* real boy. Ginny knows much more about Harry than he (and we, too) knows about her. We know she's a nice person (goes to ball with Neville although she has a chance to go with Harry) and that she has a sense of humour (is amused by Weasley's Wizard Wheezes), but that's all. Harry and Ron dismiss her because she's Ron's little sister (only 1 year or less younger than Ron, BTW), but I hope that something will happen so we, and with Harry, can find out more about her. Who knows, maybe he'll like what he finds out. Regards, Maria, who doesn't think she is good at shipping debates, but can't refrain from sharing her thoughts. From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jan 19 00:19:02 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) ) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 00:19:02 -0000 Subject: Wands and those who lost them In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50079 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z " wrote: > who just knows she would misplace hers every other day Maybe the wand not only CHOOSES the wizard, but follows the wizard to whom it has bonded around like a loyal dog. Just as "chooses" doesn't have to imply sentience, but only that the wand resonates to the same wavelength as one wizard but not another, so also "follows" doesn't have to imply sentience, but only some kind of magnetic-ish (magictic?) attraction physically tugging the wizard to hiser own wand and the wand to its own wizard. From jferer at yahoo.com Sun Jan 19 00:43:26 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 00:43:26 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry/Cho/Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50080 Maria: "Harry couldn't help noticing, nervous as he was, that she was extremely pretty. She smiled at Harry as the teams faced each other behind their captains, and he felt a slight lurch in the region of his stomach that he didn't think had anything to do with nerves." (PoA, "GRYFFINDOR VERSUS RAVENCLAW") . I don't know why - it's *not* because I want Harry for myself ) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 01:07:40 -0000 Subject: The Coming Deaths in HP5, 6, and 7 In-Reply-To: <20030118185000.31512.qmail@web20304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50081 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Peter Shea wrote: > > Though it isn't pleasant to dwell upon death, I can't help but speculate. Here are my thoughts upon who may or may not die. > (snip Peter's candidates) How about Dobbey? Does a maroon sweater qualify as a red shirt? He's definitely a "fan" of Harry. The Creevy Bros. also are fans of Harry. Tex From jayne_crosby at hotmail.com Sun Jan 19 03:03:52 2003 From: jayne_crosby at hotmail.com (sinead1916 ) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 03:03:52 -0000 Subject: The REAL reason Snape's hair is greasy! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50082 Hello, All! I've been lurking in the shadows of HPforGrownups for awhile now, and I've finally plucked up the courage to post, so please don't be too harsh. I've been reading some very interesting theories as to why Snape's hair is so greasy, and I've come up with my own theory. I warn you now; I'm a bit of a Snape fan, so the post might need to be taken with a grain of salt. Anyway, I theorize that Snape's greasy hair and overall unattractive appearance (yellowish teeth, sallow skin, etc.)is all a front. In reality he is quite dead sexy. He has to *cover up* his dead sexiness because if he didn't all the female students would be swooning over him and never get any work done. Without his faux-greasiness, he'd be a constant distraction ;-) Sinead1916 Who doesn't think anyone has already thought up this theory, but if someone has then Sinead is most sorry. From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sun Jan 19 03:16:30 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 22:16:30 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] The REAL reason Snape's hair is greasy! Message-ID: <24.34e76814.2b5b728e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50083 Ok.. Correct me if I'm wrong, but so far we have: 1. His anti-social nature makes him neglect his appearance sos he can avoid relationships. 2. He uses somekind of hair-tonic-potion thing to keep his mind from being read. 3. He's really dead sexy, but purposefully makes himself look unattractive so he won't be tackled by randy teenage girls who should be doing their school work. 4. He just doesn't care. I'm a Snape fan myself, but I don't know...the whole 'girls swooning over him' thing brings back memories of Lockhart 0_o; ~Cassie~ "Nanimo iranai tada anata to hitotsu ni naritai" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sun Jan 19 03:26:39 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 19:26:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The REAL reason Snape's hair is greasy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030119032639.18483.qmail@web40506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50084 "sinead1916 " wrote: < But actually, I think Snape is dead sexy the way he is. See, it's not his appearance that matters, it's the way he 'sweeps out of the room,' his 'billowing robes,' his 'silky' and voice that is 'barely above a whisper,' - that Potions Speech in PS, finally (a pity he wastes it on first-years, who don't appreciate a bit of it). All of that is enough to make anyone fall in love. The only reason no one does is that he's nasty to people. See, it's possible to fall in love with a person who's nasty to people you don't know, and especially not yourself, but once he starts being mean to you or your friends, specifically, his dead sexiness just doesn't get noticed at all. If Snape wasn't so evil-behaving, he'd get Valentines just like Lockhart. But I don't want to see him be nice to anyone. That phrase in PS - "It was as if Snape had started giving out sweets" is always on my mind when I think about him. Wouldn't it be scary if he did that? LOL I do have a hunch, though, that he might be nicer in OoP. The fact that he was looking at Harry with an "expression was difficult to read" means something IMO. If Harry couldn't read it, it wasn't loathing, right? Regards, Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sun Jan 19 03:34:31 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody ) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 03:34:31 -0000 Subject: The REAL reason Snape's hair is greasy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50085 Sinead 1916 wrote: > Anyway, I theorize that Snape's greasy hair > and overall unattractive appearance (yellowish teeth, sallow skin, > etc.)is all a front. In reality he is quite dead sexy. He has to > *cover up* his dead sexiness because if he didn't all the female > students would be swooning over him and never get any work done. > Without his faux-greasiness, he'd be a constant distraction ;-) Ok after I stop laughing so hard, I rather like your theory. Though I wonder why Snape would take on this unsexy appearance from the time he was a student at Hogwarts. Sirius said Snape's greasy nature was just as bad when they were schoolmates. So then, would Snape feel the need to be a real humanitarian and not distracted his fellow female students from their studies? For sake of argument, lets say Snape without his "cover up" looks like Brad Pitt (or insert your favorite dead sexy actor here...Alan Rickman does *not* count ). So then he covers up his true dead sexy nature, for the sake of fair play? Seems he should keep his dead sexy state and teach those girls how to focus. But then again, girls can be rather giggly. Maybe they tried his patience. Oh...oh...hey! This could add to why he hates Lockhart so much. Snape could truly be in competition with him, if he did not have this religious adversity to being sexy. He glares at Lockhart for not also taking the needed step of focusing the young female mind onto their studies not their teacher. Also adds to why Snape hates Sirius' sexy appeal, James distracting talent, and Lupin...well he is just loveable. Sinead, cute theory, but Snape being that kind as to put the needs of his former schoolmates and current students before his need to attract a wife is a bit far to stretch. But, I feel many Snape fans will love you for your theory. Gives them more cause to break out the Pantene and wash that grease away. Melody From dehavensangel at hotmail.com Sat Jan 18 22:55:00 2003 From: dehavensangel at hotmail.com (shinesse ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 22:55:00 -0000 Subject: Harry's Summer Job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50086 Kayla said: >>>>>I'm going to have to disagree with you about Harry getting a summer job. I really don't think that Uncle Vernon & Aunt Petunia would allow Harry to "be in the public's eye" (they're ashamed of him, remember?).<<<<< Well maybe they would let him get a job just to get him out of the house. Yes they are ashamed of him but they can't stand to be around him either. Letting him have a job would allow them to be free of him. >>>>And as far as Dudley lying in the garden----I don't believe he'll be able to pick himself up from a lying position, since his diet probably isn't working!!<<<< You are so right there. Dudley is bound to be big and fat just like his father. I still think its Harry in the garden. The way the quote sounds it seems to me more like his laying around taking in the last days of summer. I think he's looking forward to going back to school the only real home he's ever had but this year isn't going to be the same. With everyone preparing for the return of LV it isn't going to be an easy year for Harry at Hogwarts. ~dehavensangel~ From suzie_t666 at hotmail.com Sat Jan 18 23:23:06 2003 From: suzie_t666 at hotmail.com (Paul Smith, unfortunately. ) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 23:23:06 -0000 Subject: some pointless questions from GOF Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50087 Hey everyone, Two things, one reasonably important to the plot and one to satisfy my curiosity. 1. Why oh why did Crouch Jr.-as-Moody teach Harry to resist the Imperius Charm in the 4th year DADA lessons? I guess he might have just been wanting to test Harry's ability so Voldemort would know how advanced he was come the graveyard scene, but that doesn't explain why Moody "insisted on putting Harry through his paces four times in a row, until Harry could throw the curse off entirely". Why would he teach his master's greatest adversary (except maybe Dumbledore) to beat one of the most powerful Dark curses? Maybe he's just stupid. Maybe that Dementor sucking out his soul was a good thing for Voldemort, I'm sure he wouldn't want someone that dopey in his inner circle. 2. Was there a House Cup at all in the fourth year? We know there was no Quidditch, but we also have no mention of the House Cup. I originally started thinking about why it was that at some point in the GOF (I forget which), Snape punished Harry by taking 5 points from Gryiffindor, when there didn't appear to be a House Cup to receive (or lose) points towards, but I don't think Snape would miss an opportunity to punish Harry by giving him a punishment that was redundant. So which is it, did Snape/JKR slip up or was the House Cup just never mentioned in the aftermath of Cedric's death? Thank you in advance for any opinions on these questions, pants- wetting excitement love to all, Suze. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx From stormlass at yahoo.com Sun Jan 19 03:09:07 2003 From: stormlass at yahoo.com (snapesrighthand) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 19:09:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore gets sacked? In-Reply-To: <20030118205803.20944.qmail@web40514.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030119030907.7256.qmail@web14512.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50088 Chris: < Message-ID: <20030119032431.29781.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50089 CMC: what about Cornelius Fudge being sacked? BTW, I dismiss the FIE (Fudge is Evil) in favor of my own acronym, FRUITLESS (Fudge Really is a Useful Idiot, a Tool of a Lord who is Evil, Scheming and Snaky). Alexandra: I am almost positive they are going to at least try to sack Dumbledore. I do not think they will sack Fudge right away. I think his role is way to suitable for LV to use... this is where I agree with you. I think Rowling put alot into that character even though he is not important... or so we think. I think LV is going to use Fudge via Malfoy. Malfoy has Fudge wrapped around his little finger with all his contributions to charitys etc. just my 2 cents Alexandra ===== It is a tough job, but somone has to do it! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From chpdel at adelphia.net Sun Jan 19 02:52:57 2003 From: chpdel at adelphia.net (Tiff & Del) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 21:52:57 -0500 Subject: Fidelus Charm? References: Message-ID: <000001c2bf67$9f30afe0$85e73018@pit.adelphia.net> No: HPFGUIDX 50090 gkjpo I wonder. JKR has been quoted as saying that there are things coming with the Dursley's that we might not expect (would this be them being unexpectedly loyal to Harry - something we REALLY wouldn't expect? Maybe they'll be SORRY for their past treatment of him! :). Maybe this is the book where the cycle is broken and Harry doesn't have the Dursleys to go back to! After all, if Mrs. Figg is exposed and we find out all about her, does that mean that Harry's protection at the Dursleys is broken? Kristen -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As I was reading this post, something struck me...what if Mrs Figg is the secret keeper in an elaborate Fidelus(sp?) Charm... Do the protected 'subjects' have to be WILLING to be protected? Do they even have to know they are under the Fidelus Charm to be protected by it?? It may explain why Harry is safe there...other than another form of ancient magic(like his mothers love protected him from Voldemort- until GoF) of course anyone could be the secret keeper, couldn't they? Has anyone else brough this theory up in the past? Has me thinking now... Tiffany (who is saving her pennies till June 21! ;) "Happiness Is Seeing Your Mother-in-law on a Milk Carton" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From illyana at mindspring.com Sun Jan 19 04:02:37 2003 From: illyana at mindspring.com (illyana delorean) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 21:02:37 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The REAL reason Snape's hair is greasy! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50091 >Sinead 1916 wrote: >> Anyway, I theorize that Snape's greasy hair >> and overall unattractive appearance (yellowish teeth, sallow skin, >> etc.)is all a front. In reality he is quite dead sexy. He has to >> *cover up* his dead sexiness because if he didn't all the female >> students would be swooning over him and never get any work done. > > Without his faux-greasiness, he'd be a constant distraction ;-) then, Melody wrote: >Ok after I stop laughing so hard, I rather like your theory. Though I >wonder why Snape would take on this unsexy appearance from the time he >was a student at Hogwarts. Sirius said Snape's greasy nature was just >as bad when they were schoolmates. So then, would Snape feel the need >to be a real humanitarian and not distracted his fellow female >students from their studies? > Maybe Snape did have greasy hair and a hook-nose back then, but the rest of him looked dead sexy. Or, maybe Sirius was just insanely jealous of Snape's looks (possibly because Snape captured the attention of hot young girls and Sirius did not) and did what every jealous teenager does - made fun of him by overexaggerating a slight flaw in his appearance (greasy hair, hook-nose). Of course, if Sirius hated Snape *that* much (or was *that* jealous of him), he would continue to make fun of him during his adulthood. Of course, the Marauders' Map makes fun of Snape, as well, so I guess that would mean that all of the Marauders were jealous of Snape's sexiness! (Awww... James, I would have expected less jealousy from you!) illyana, who thinks that Snape is hot even with his greasy hair and hook-nose (especially with the hook-nose!) -- HPGCv1 a22 e+ x+* Rm Ri HP4 S+++ Mo++ HG+/VK++ HaP+/SS+++& FGW++ DM++& VC-- GG-- CD+ VK++ SS+++& PT--- AF-- MM++ RL++ O+m FAo F- Sl FHo SfD visit my livejournal! http://www.livejournal.com/users/illyanadmc From stormlass at yahoo.com Sun Jan 19 03:57:26 2003 From: stormlass at yahoo.com (snapesrighthand) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 19:57:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The REAL reason Snape's hair is greasy! In-Reply-To: <20030119032639.18483.qmail@web40506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030119035726.92209.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50092 "sinead1916:I've been reading some very interesting theories as to why Snape's hair is so greasy, and I've come up with my own theory. I theorize that Snape's greasy hair and overall unattractive appearance (yellowish teeth, sallow skin, etc.)is all a front. In reality he is quite dead sexy. Me Alex: *sorry a whole lot of snipping going on.* I think he does have greasy hair to an extent. I think he may push it up a notch. Like Maria pointed out Sirius said he did in GOF. Maria: I do have a hunch, though, that he might be nicer in OoP. The fact that he was looking at Harry with an "_expression was difficult to read" means something IMO. If Harry couldn't read it, it wasn't loathing, right? Me Alex: If Snape truly does hate Harry, I think he is going to have a new kind of respect for him. Harry faced LV and lived on his own this time. He was not a baby protected by his mothers spell for her sacrifice. I agree with you about the expression. I also agree that Snape would be sexy for his intelligence and his silky voice. Looks are not everything... and the fact that Alan plays him has nothing to do with it! ;) Alexandra ===== It is a tough job, but somone has to do it! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From stormlass at yahoo.com Sun Jan 19 04:04:25 2003 From: stormlass at yahoo.com (snapesrighthand) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 20:04:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] some pointless questions from GOF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030119040425.38469.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50093 Paul Smith 1. Why oh why did Crouch Jr.-as-Moody teach Harry to resist the Imperius Charm in the 4th year DADA lessons? Me Alex: My guess is that he did not want anyone using that to cheat. Crouch knew that Karkaroff was a DE so he may have used any means for Krum to win. Harry had to win in order for this whole scheme to work. Paul Smith 2. Was there a House Cup at all in the fourth year? Me Alex: Yes, I think it is because of Cedrics death. They put up the black banners in place of the "winning houses" colours. In an act of respect. I can not see Dumbledore giving that, Cedric was murdered by LV, speech and then say, oh and btw Slytherin wins the house cup. Alexandra ===== It is a tough job, but somone has to do it! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From stormlass at yahoo.com Sun Jan 19 04:17:12 2003 From: stormlass at yahoo.com (snapesrighthand) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 20:17:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Arabella Figg and the female DADA teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030119041712.17817.qmail@web14511.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50094 Shalimar: No, no...I think the DADA teacher is Fleur. Break out Goblet of Fire again, fellas, and take a look at "I am 'oping to get a job at 'Ogwarts." Alexandra: What version of GOF do you have? I have the scholastic american version. Mine says on page 724 2nd paragraph from the bottom: "Wee will see each uzzer again, I 'ope," said Fleur as she reached him, holding out her hand. "I am 'oping to get a job 'ere, to improve my Eenglish." She did not say Hogwarts directly. I can see where you would interpret it that way. I do not see her as the DADA teacher. She may be. I just can not see Dumbledore hiring a 17-18 yr old girl for the job. It is time for Dumbledore to get these kids trained seriously. LV is back and kicking. I hope it will be an auror or somone of that sort. These kids have not had much of an education for self-defense and offense. Play time is over. It is time for serious teachers. Lupin was a good teacher, but as Snape said he would expect 1st years to know what they were learning in 3rd year. Moody(CJr) taught them the unforgivables, but come on. Alexandra ===== It is a tough job, but somone has to do it! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 19 04:32:47 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 20:32:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] some pointless questions from GOF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030119043247.47129.qmail@web40502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50095 > > 2. Was there a House Cup at all in the fourth year? Yes, there was a House Cup, but because of Cedric's death, it wasn't announced at the end of year feast or shown in the decorations. I think (this is just something I think I remember so no one jump down my throat if I'm wrong) Harry thinks(like in the narration, not dialogue) that though Gryffindor won the House Cup, the drapes were black in mourning of Cedric's death. Kathryn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From christi0469 at hotmail.com Sun Jan 19 05:34:17 2003 From: christi0469 at hotmail.com (christi0469 ) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 05:34:17 -0000 Subject: Flitwick/Missing 24 hours Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50096 Inspired by the release date for OOtP, last night I began to reread the series from the beginning (for the ?th time) and noticed something that eluded me before. In the first chapter of PS/SS Vernon bumps into and just about knocks over a tiny wizard with a squeaky voice. Could this be Prof. Flitwick? (I did try to search the archive to see if this had been brought up previously but gave up after awhile.) If this was Flitwick, why were he and McGonagall away from Hogwarts while school was in session? Sure, classes would have probably been cancelled in celebration, but it would seem to me that the teachers would have been required to make sure the students didn't get too out of hand. I know that this is most likely inconsequential, but I have to wonder how many of the people mentioned early in PS/SS are going to turn out to be important later. It would be amusing if Doris Crockford and Daedalus Diggle turn out to be as important as Sirius Black already has and Mrs./Arabella Figg promises to be. Could there be any importance behind Flitwick loitering and gossiping on a sidewalk in Surrey (or does Vernon work in London)? From wpfositpoi at yahoo.com Sun Jan 19 05:57:20 2003 From: wpfositpoi at yahoo.com (wpfositpoi ) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 05:57:20 -0000 Subject: What is the major plot of OOP? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50097 Does anyone have any guesses on what the major plot of OOP will be? We've all speculated on smaller plot lines, character fates, etc. but there must be some story that sets all of that in motion. It would introduce new aspects of the wizarding world, information on the past and be loaded with danger and, of course, a mystery. In the first, it was the Sorcerer's Stone, then the Chamber of Secrets, then Sirius' escape, then the Triwizard Tournament. This is probably impossible to figure out since JKR's imagination is so astounding but maybe someone out there has some ideas... The only clue I can think of is that Harry's supposed to visit a place he's only heard of. Azkaban, maybe? From marie_mouse at hotmail.com Sun Jan 19 07:35:22 2003 From: marie_mouse at hotmail.com (Marie Jadewalker ) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 07:35:22 -0000 Subject: some pointless questions from GOF In-Reply-To: <20030119043247.47129.qmail@web40502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50098 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kathryn Wolber wrote: > > > > 2. Was there a House Cup at all in the fourth year? > > Yes, there was a House Cup, but because of > Cedric's death, it wasn't announced at the end of year > feast or shown in the decorations. I think (this is > just something I think I remember so no one jump down > my throat if I'm wrong) Harry thinks(like in the > narration, not dialogue) that though Gryffindor won > the House Cup, the drapes were black in mourning of > Cedric's death. > > Kathryn Hi! I'm a first time poster, and this is definitely not meant to be jumping down your throat. :) I had to look it up myself to be sure. In GOF Chapter 37, all we're told is: When he, Ron, and Hermione entered the Hall, they saw at once that the usual decorations were missing. The Great Hall was normally decorated with the winning House's colors for the Leaving Feast. Tonight, however, there were black drapes on the wall behind the teachers' table. Harry knew instantly that they were there as a mark of respect to Cedric. At least, that's all it says in my Hardback US edition (I have no idea what printing it is). The only reason I raise this point is that I wonder who *did* win the house championship that year. Naturally, it *would* have been highly inappropriate to announce it after Dumbledore's great speach about Cedric, but I suppose I'm still curious. Given that Harry and co. had gotten tons of points during their first and second years for outstanding performance at the end of the year, is it possible that the house cup was given to Hufflepuff (privately) to honor Cedric? I'd like to hear people's thoughts on the matter. As for the first question, why Moody/Crouch Jr. taught Harry to resist the Imperius Curse, I think it has to do with his duel nature. Hasn't it been argued that he started to take on some of Moody's characteristics from Polyjuicing into him for so long? If so, that could have been Moody's personality showing through. Alternately he could have figured it was a fair risk to take because doing things like that would make people like Dumbledore less likely to question him. Or, if he was truly thinking long term evil, he might not have been casting a "full strength" Imperius on Harry. Why? So Harry (and everyone else) thinks that Imperius doesn't affect him; that could be useful to Voldemort later on. Oh, and just for the record, I think it's Harry in the flowerbed and that he's stargazing. Maybe he'll wonder what the centaurs were talking about that night in the Forbidden Forrest first year and half wish he could tell what lies ahead. ~Marie From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sun Jan 19 08:28:59 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 03:28:59 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] some pointless questions from GOF Message-ID: <117.1dd68a62.2b5bbbcb@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50099 In a message dated 19/01/2003 03:43:42 GMT Standard Time, suzie_t666 at hotmail.com writes: > > 1. Why oh why did Crouch Jr.-as-Moody teach Harry to resist the > Imperius Charm in the 4th year DADA lessons? Why would he > teach his master's greatest adversary (except maybe Dumbledore) to > beat one of the most powerful Dark curses? Maybe he's just stupid. > Maybe that Dementor sucking out his soul was a good thing for > Voldemort, I'm sure he wouldn't want someone that dopey in his inner > circle. > This is turning into a VFAQ! And it's one about which I have a pet theory, last expounded upon in post #48344. (It's to do with the need for Harry to win the Triwizard for the plot to work.) As for being dopey......you'll have legions of Barty' Jr's fans on the warpath. Well, perhaps not legions. There are a few of us, though. No. Barty Jr was Dead Clever, which is why some of us admire him in a twisted sort of way. Telling the literal truth for a whole year, with no-one (particularly the average reader) ever suspecting him. He is truly one of JKR's greatest creations and must have been incredible fun to write. ~Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jferer at yahoo.com Sun Jan 19 12:02:29 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 12:02:29 -0000 Subject: What is the major plot of OOP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50100 Wpfositpoi:"Does anyone have any guesses on what the major plot of OOP will be? We've all speculated on smaller plot lines, character fates, etc. but there must be some story that sets all of that in motion. It would introduce new aspects of the wizarding world, information on the past and be loaded with danger and, of course, a mystery." We just can't know. We're all so deprived over the last two years plus we all feel like grasping at straws, but we all have to admit we just don't know. There are open threads and hints JKR has dropped: Snape has taken off on an important, dangerous mission. We'll probably hear more. Hagrid and Maxime have a mission, too, and we may see and hear more about Giants. We could even meet one. We'll meet the "old crowd," the Enemies of Voldemort, the (?)Order of the Phoenix, perhaps? We'll find out something about Arabella Figg. There will be serious conflict with the Ministry. It will affect Dumbledore, Harry, Arthur or Percy Weasley, or all of them. Love is in the air. It's likely we'll spend time outside Hogwarts. We'll hear Harry's and his parents' backstory. Guesswork? The War is on. It began when Cedric died; before that were the usual nasty preliminaries before all wars. It's likely to be a nasty, dirty, underground war at first. Voldemort's strategy will be to undermine his main enemies Dumbledore and Harry, and take away their base, Hogwarts, by getting one or both of them sacked or even jailed. Since we have two books to go after this one, that either won't succeed or Dumbledore/Harry will get Hogwarts back before the end of the book. Deaths: We know they're coming. Most likely candidates? Hagrid, Ron, Arthur, Percy, Fred/George/Bill/Charley, "old crowd". Least likely? Dumbledore (this book), Hermione, Harry, Snape (not through with him). Everybody else is in the middle somewhere. It's easier to guess at themes than the actual plot. There's two hundred and fifty-five thousand words, and we haven't seen two hundred of them. We have to wait. Jim Ferer, who can't pronounce "wpfositpoi" From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sun Jan 19 12:04:20 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 07:04:20 EST Subject: Vernon's office (was: Flitwick/Missing 24 hours) Message-ID: <4a.16c8dc56.2b5bee44@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50101 In a message dated 19/01/2003 05:35:33 GMT Standard Time, christi0469 at hotmail.com writes: > Could there > be any importance behind Flitwick loitering and gossiping on a > sidewalk in Surrey (or does Vernon work in London)? > Well, it *could* be Flitwick , I suppose. But no, Vernon Dursely doesn't work in London, I don't think. He drives from Little Whinging, 'towards town' and it is 'on the edge of town' that he first starts seeing wizards. I interpret that as meaning a local town, rather than London. Granted, if an English person, particularly from the south east/Home Counties talks about 'going up to town' it can imply London. And granted, Vernon is a director of his company. But given the 'usual traffic jams', leaving home at 8.30 from a village in Surrey would be a bit late to arrive in London at a reasonable hour. Can you imagine Vernon Dursely walking into the office a moment after 9am? Can you imagine what he'd say to a member of staff who *did*? What I do find odd is that there's a baker's shop opposite his office. It's a building with at least nine floors and has its own car park. I would have expected to find it on an industrial estate/ business park rather than apparently in the middle of town. ~Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amani at charter.net Sun Jan 19 12:55:30 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 07:55:30 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Non-animagus animal transformations / Sirius and Dementors References: <3RQ07YV48XMLJC83A9UP983W3.3e2802c0@tk> Message-ID: <001601c2bfba$0c0a0240$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50102 Tosten: Next, just why is Sirius overwhelmed by the Dementors' powers at the end of PoA? He made it through Azkaban, so he's kind of used to having many of them around, and he says it didn't affect him there because he wasn't really guilty. That hasn't changed, and now he's got even more that should give him purpose and strength, catching Pettigrew and protecting the kids from Lupin. Why did he change back into human form in the first place? He either lost his wand or is unable to summon a Patronus, so he's only making things more difficult for himself by taking human shape. It would be easier to escape the Dementors as a dog Me: Sirius didn't say the Dementors didnt' /affect/ him. He simply stayed /sane/ knowing that he was innocent. But the Dementors are still horrible beings, and Sirius feels it (probably even more keenly because of his years spent with them). Imagine having all your happiness taken away from you for 13 years, then you manage to get away. Imagine the fear of being taken back to them. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From SaalsG at cni-usa.com Sun Jan 19 14:04:04 2003 From: SaalsG at cni-usa.com (Grace) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 08:04:04 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Flitwick/Missing 24 hours References: Message-ID: <00c501c2bfc3$a0c9c1a0$ba4053d1@SaalsD> No: HPFGUIDX 50103 christi0469 wrote: Inspired by the release date for OOtP, last night I began to reread the series from the beginning (for the ?th time) and noticed something that eluded me before. In the first chapter of PS/SS Vernon bumps into and just about knocks over a tiny wizard with a squeaky voice. Could this be Prof. Flitwick? (I did try to search the archive to see if this had been brought up previously but gave up after awhile.) If this was Flitwick, why were he and McGonagall away from Hogwarts while school was in session? Sure, classes would have probably been cancelled in celebration, but it would seem to me that the teachers would have been required to make sure the students didn't get too out of hand. I know that this is most likely inconsequential, but I have to wonder how many of the people mentioned early in PS/SS are going to turn out to be important later. It would be amusing if Doris Crockford and Daedalus Diggle turn out to be as important as Sirius Black already has and Mrs./Arabella Figg promises to be. Could there be any importance behind Flitwick loitering and gossiping on a sidewalk in Surrey (or does Vernon work in London)? now me: I've decided to do the samething too: read all four books again when I get my haads on OotP (pre- ordered it!), taking my time because I expect the 6th book will be a long time in coming again. I too, thought Vernon had bumped into Prof. Flitwick. I just assumed since JRK said Harry was a year old, Vernon bumped into Flitwick on Harry's birthday - which is during the summer break and so Flitwick wouldn't have been teaching at that time. Grace From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Sun Jan 19 14:46:38 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica ) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 14:46:38 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging In-Reply-To: <22107247180.20030117173652@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50104 Susanne: In fact, I see Hermione as plenty "strong willed" herself and needing a partner who's able to speak his mind and not keep quiet and give in to avoid conflict. Me: Harry the milquetoast? There is a difference between arguing/disagreeing with someone because of a difference of opinion and arguing just to be contrary, to try to get the other's dander up. Do Harry and Hermione never argue/disagree? And isn't it just *possible* that Harry sometimes defers to Hermione because she happens to be right? Susanne: Harry just doesn't show any romantic feelings for Hermione and it makes me feel like someone is "arranging" a relationship between them, because the two of them sound like they *should* make a great couple (on the surface). Me: Harry, currently, has a longstanding crush on Cho. I don't think that he consciously looks at any other girl of his aquaintence as a romantic interest as he is already pre-occupied. There are several schools of thought on this crush: Harry and Cho will establish a relationship and it will be sustained throughout the remaining books; Harry and Cho will date a few times but nothing will come of it and Harry will move on; Harry and Cho will not date (b/c of Cedric) and Harry, while possibly pining a while longer, will quickly move on to another romantic interest. The latter two situations imply that there is another lucky girl ;) on whom Harry will bestow his charms, and although it's possible that this girl is yet unknown to us (the infamous Icicle perhaps - eg) the common thought is that it is an already established character. The two most popular condidates being Ginny and Hermione. Until Harry makes his move the debate between Ginny and Hermione consists mainly of subtext and forshadowing. So pairing Harry up in future canon with anyone other than Cho would seem like (artificially) "arranging" a relationship based on the superficial. My own personal opinion is that the subtext and foreshadowing indicates a future Harry/Hermione relationship, however, getting there is *not* going to be a 'walk-in-the-park' Erica From sushi at societyhappens.com Sun Jan 19 13:17:36 2003 From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 07:17:36 -0600 Subject: The REAL reason Snape's hair is greasy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119064052.02742100@mail.societyhappens.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50105 Sinead1916 wrote: >I've been reading some very interesting theories as to why Snape's >hair is so greasy, and I've come up with my own theory. I warn you >now; I'm a bit of a Snape fan, so the post might need to be taken >with a grain of salt. Anyway, I theorize that Snape's greasy hair >and overall unattractive appearance (yellowish teeth, sallow skin, >etc.)is all a front. In reality he is quite dead sexy. He has to >*cover up* his dead sexiness because if he didn't all the female >students would be swooning over him and never get any work done. >Without his faux-greasiness, he'd be a constant distraction ;-) Ah, me. Hate to break it to you, but this theory (or variations thereon) have been running rampant in Snape-centred fanfic for quite some time. Personally, I hold to one probable theory and several unlikely, fic-based ones. There's a small degree of crossover, mainly with his teeth, but this varies. (Just to note, I, too, fall into the category of those who think Snape is, as I heard once in from a very bizarre woman in a cowboy hat, "sexier than socks on a rooster" - I assume this is a compliment. I also think Voldemort - not Tom Riddle, Voldemort - is one of the sexiest characters ever to grace a page. You may take this information as you see fit.) 1. Hair and skin I don't remember who first forwarded this theory on one of my fic lists, but it's the best explanation I've ever found for limp, greasy hair: he's standing over cauldrons all day. As someone who's spent a good deal of time poring over stoves, chemistry sets, and various and sundry chemicals used on metals, I can tell you that the combination of steam and airborne particles results in the most disgusting, slimy, foul layer of sludge you can imagine. It gets on your hair, your skin, your clothing, down your throat, you name it, it goes there. It refuses to wash out properly, especially if you get a daily buildup, and it can make your skin look more like wax. 2. Skin (con't.) Severus doesn't leave the dungeons very much. We see him outside at Quidditch matches and such, but for the most part he's stuck downstairs or in the Great Hall. As one who gets approximately the same amount of sun exposure he does, I can tell you it can make you pale, sallow, and generally unhealthy-looking. If the person in question is of a Caucasian bent and has a warm skin tone to start with, he or she turns yellowish. On the plus side, he's not so likely to end up with raging melanoma. 3. Teeth and Bitterness If Snape loves his job, I'll eat my aviation shears. This man is a sullen, angry, bitter academic if I ever saw one, and he's got to do *something* to deal with it. Three substances come to mind: Coffee Tea Nicotine Frankly, I have a hard time picturing him *not* scurrying to his office between classes to choke down a fortifying cup of caffeinated tar, or out to some secluded back wall of the castle to light up once the last of his students has left him to a few moments' peace before he has the *wonderful* privilege of marking their sad excuses for homework. Given that nicotine and caffeine are both stimulants, it would explain some of his tense, vengeful swooping. He's either buzzed on the stuff or coming down and needing a serious fix. Caffeine has a tendency to turn teeth yellow or light brown, and nicotine does the same to both teeth and skin. I just want to know what he was taking in the Seventies... 4. Voice Again, we get into either cauldrons or smoking. Severus seldom raises his voice over a silken whisper. This might be the sign of a long-term smoker, or it could be a side effect of someone who spends every waking moment leaning over somebody's cauldron. Acidic or alkaline fumes (or even sheer quantities of moisture) can irritate tissues in the throat, especially the vocal cords, causing anything from difficulty to pain on speaking over a whisper. Or there is another theory. We've seen how seldom he truly loses his temper. He's often threatening (GoF, the Veritaserum), will get upset when necessary (CoS, Harry and Ron in his office), but rarely ever gets angry enough to seem like he's going to snap (PoA, the Shrieking Shack). He may keep himself deliberately reserved and quiet because he knows what sort of person he is deep inside. The man was a Death Eater (we presume). He's got some moral boundary set differently from the norm, and if he is afraid of what he'll do if he crosses it, he might very well keep himself in check to either prevent harming someone else or prevent self-incrimination. (While not necessarily an advocate of the Monster!Snape theory, I have been known to dabble with the concept.) A strong, ascetic individual afraid of himself and his past can and will go to great lengths to avoid confronting the beast within. Hmm. Got a wee bit longer than intended. Sorry about that, all; this is a subject on which I've done a great deal of analysis. Needless to say, once OotP is released, I expect I shall have a great deal more to add, plus at least one major revision. Sushi [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mb2910 at hotmail.com Sun Jan 19 15:45:38 2003 From: mb2910 at hotmail.com (meira_q ) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 15:45:38 -0000 Subject: The REAL reason Snape's hair is greasy! In-Reply-To: <24.34e76814.2b5b728e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50106 > Ok.. > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but so far we have: > > 1. His anti-social nature makes him neglect his appearance sos he can avoid > relationships. > > 2. He uses somekind of hair-tonic-potion thing to keep his mind from being > read. > > 3. He's really dead sexy, but purposefully makes himself look unattractive so > he won't be tackled by randy teenage girls who should be doing their school > work. > > 4. He just doesn't care. > > I'm a Snape fan myself, but I don't know...the whole 'girls swooning over > him' thing brings back memories of Lockhart 0_o; > > ~Cassie~ > "Nanimo iranai tada anata to hitotsu ni naritai" > > What if his hair is greasy because of all the potion fumes, his skin sallow because he doesn't go outside too much? Occupational hazzards, one might call it :). Meira. "I love deadlines. I love the whooshing sound they make as they fly by." ~Douglas Adams~ From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 19 15:38:12 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 07:38:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: some pointless questions from GOF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030119153812.24040.qmail@web40506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50107 --- "Marie Jadewalker " wrote: ...The only reason I raise > this point is that I wonder who *did* win the house > championship that year. Given > that Harry and co. had gotten tons of points during > their > first and second years for outstanding performance > at the end > of the year, is it possible that the house cup was > given to > Hufflepuff (privately) to honor Cedric? I'd like to > hear > people's thoughts on the matter. I think that maybe...since technically Harry and Cedric both won the Triwizard Tournament, that Gryffindor and Hufflepuff might tie for the house cup. Since the Quidditch Cup winner gets house points...I would think that they would recieve points for having the champions. But, it's likely that prior to the Third Task, Gryffindor had more points than Hufflepuff, so maybe both houses would recieve the same amount of points for Harry and Cedric's victory--but Gryffindor would win anyway. ~Kathryn > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From mb2910 at hotmail.com Sun Jan 19 15:53:16 2003 From: mb2910 at hotmail.com (meira_q ) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 15:53:16 -0000 Subject: Yahoo tracking Yahoogroup users with a "web beacons" thingy... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50108 this is the message as I got it from another group I belong to. <<>> Meira. "Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean that someone *isn't* out to get you." ~I, Q~ From joy_the_lemur at yahoo.com Sun Jan 19 16:00:16 2003 From: joy_the_lemur at yahoo.com (joy_the_lemur ) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 16:00:16 -0000 Subject: Flitwick/Missing 24 hours In-Reply-To: <00c501c2bfc3$a0c9c1a0$ba4053d1@SaalsD> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50109 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Grace" wrote: > > christi0469 wrote: > > Inspired by the release date for OOtP, last night I began to reread > the series from the beginning (for the ?th time) and noticed > something that eluded me before. In the first chapter of PS/SS > Vernon bumps into and just about knocks over a tiny wizard with a > squeaky voice. Could this be Prof. Flitwick? (I did try to search > the archive to see if this had been brought up previously but gave > up after awhile.) If this was Flitwick, why were he and McGonagall > away from Hogwarts while school was in session? Sure, classes would > have probably been cancelled in celebration, but it would seem to me > that the teachers would have been required to make sure the students > didn't get too out of hand. > > I know that this is most likely inconsequential, but I have to > wonder how many of the people mentioned early in PS/SS are going to > turn out to be important later. It would be amusing if Doris > Crockford and Daedalus Diggle turn out to be as important as Sirius > Black already has and Mrs./Arabella Figg promises to be. Could there > be any importance behind Flitwick loitering and gossiping on a > sidewalk in Surrey (or does Vernon work in London)? > > > now me: > > I've decided to do the samething too: read all four books again when I get > my haads on OotP (pre- ordered it!), taking my time because I expect the 6th > book will be a long time in coming again. I too, thought Vernon had bumped > into Prof. Flitwick. I just assumed since JRK said Harry was a year old, > Vernon bumped into Flitwick on Harry's birthday - which is during the summer > break and so Flitwick wouldn't have been teaching at that time. > > Grace Actually, it would've been around Halloween. As Hagrid says, "All anyone knows is, [Voldemort] turned up in the village where you was all living, on Hallowe'en ten years ago" (PS/SS). Indeed, Hogwarts might've been celebrating as well. Or Hogwarts was closed during the war, perhaps? Certainly we've had at least three people from Hogwarts in Privet Drive, with the implication that Professor McGonagall had been there for at least a day, observing the Dursleys. Joy From sevothtarte at gmx.net Sun Jan 19 15:53:58 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 16:53:58 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Arabella Figg and the female DADA teacher In-Reply-To: <20030119041712.17817.qmail@web14511.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50110 >Alexandra: >She did not say Hogwarts directly. I can see >where you would interpret it that way. I do not >see her as the DADA teacher. She may be. I just >can not see Dumbledore hiring a 17-18 yr old girl >for the job. It is time for Dumbledore to get >these kids trained seriously. LV is back and >kicking. I hope it will be an auror or somone of >that sort. Hmm, while I still expect Figg to be the next DADA teacher, your mention of aurors gave me another idea: What about Neville's grandmother? She must be a strong witch, she has all the reasons in the world to hate the Dark Arts after what happened to her son and daughter-in-law (or is it daughter and son-in-law?), both of which were Aurors, so it might be a 'family trade'. And she certainly has the authority and backbone to make those kids behave VERY good in class. ^_~ Neville/grandmother during lessons and Snape/grandmother ("So you're the one my nephew mentioned when we talked about Boggarts!") might provide some comic relief, just like all the DADA teachers before did more or less. And think of all the time and money it would safe if she doesn't have to send Neville all those things he forgot to take to school ... Torsten From starropal at hotmail.com Sun Jan 19 15:58:30 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 09:58:30 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] some pointless questions from GOF Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50111 >1. Why oh why did Crouch Jr.-as-Moody teach Harry to resist the >Imperius Charm in the 4th year DADA lessons? Well my theory has always been that Barty thought that no one deserves to be under the Imperius. I mean he'd been under it for YEARS. So he probably had this strange need to make sure it didn't happen to someone else. Maybe he even saw it as getting back at his father in some way (As we see at the end, Barty isn't exactly mentally stable). Look how upset he gets at the kids in DADA after he performs Imperius on the spider: "Everyone was laughing - everyone except Moody. 'Think it's funny, do you?' he growled. 'You'd like it, would you, if I did it to you?'" (GoF, ch 14) >2. Was there a House Cup at all in the fourth year? No, it was not done out of respect for Cedric. I also think JKR is trying to show that things are changing. The House Cup was something we knew we were going to have, because we had the last three years. Now that's gone. In fact I bet it won't come back till book 7 if at all. Star Opal - who hopes she made sense seeing how this is her first post. ^_^ _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sun Jan 19 16:26:32 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody ) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 16:26:32 -0000 Subject: some pointless questions from GOF In-Reply-To: <117.1dd68a62.2b5bbbcb@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50112 >suzie_t666 at h... writes: >1. Why oh why did Crouch Jr.-as-Moody teach Harry to resist the >Imperius Charm in the 4th year DADA lessons? Why would he >teach his master's greatest adversary (except maybe Dumbledore) to >beat one of the most powerful Dark curses? Maybe he's just stupid. >Maybe that Dementor sucking out his soul was a good thing for >Voldemort, I'm sure he wouldn't want someone that dopey in his inner >circle. Eloise wrote: > As for being dopey......you'll have legions of Barty' Jr's fans on > the warpath. Well, perhaps not legions. There are a few of us, > though. What? Someone is poking fun of our little Barty? Calling him dopey *and* stupid!! Oh, no, no, no. We can't have that. Just a second let me get this t-shirt on. Hmmmm, BABEMEISTER. Not sure if this sort of attire is appropriate for Sunday wear, but for Barty I can make the sacrifice. > No. Barty Jr was Dead Clever, which is why some of us admire him in > a twisted sort of way. Telling the literal truth for a whole year, > with no-one (particularly the average reader) ever suspecting him. > He is truly one of JKR's greatest creations and must have been > incredible fun to write. As I nod fervently in agreement. Brilliant. Purely brilliant. So then why does this brilliant man train Harry how to shrug off this curse? I like Eloise's idea and also another. Was it you Elkins that suggested it? See don't forget Barty Junior himself was under the imperius curse for *ten* years. Quite a long time, so he truly hated it. Oh, he hates if with the passion he has for everything else if not more. I also assume he spent that time trying to break it, but our little clever Barty could not. For ten years, he did not break it. This man received 12 owls, and he did not have the needed trait. The trait he told Harry to be a strong character. Frankly, after Barty Jr.'s perfect acting job, he *does* have strong character, but I digress. So then, Barty!Moody happened upon the time to teach Harry's class the three deadly curses. He expects, I assume, that this will be a walk in the park, and *no one* will be able to resist his curses. He is after all, quite a good wizard. So, he goes down the line and reaches Harry. Harry who *does* resist it. I bet this shocked him. He was quite taken back. This boy, who no one but Dumbledore it seems knows why he smited the greatest dark wizard of the last century, has it in his to resist this curse too. The curse Barty Jr. so hated and despised. Curiosity maybe was his motive to see how far Harry can resist it, or even, the deep desire that *no one*, well except who he believe deserves it like his father, should be under the imperius curse. Also back to Eloise's theory, how could Barty resist seeing Harry's "power"? Consider it almost a science experiment. Barty then reported back to EvilBabyVoldemort and gave him the head up to not use imperius on Harry. After all, Voldie was not shocked in the graveyard when Harry resisted his imperius. Oh the Deadeaters were but not Voldie. He seems more amused by it. So, Barty Jr. did not really teach Harry how to break imperius I feel. He did condition him to not be as subject to it, but that strength of character was already in there. It is something Barty Jr. admired. And yes, Barty Jr. may be misguided, but he does respect and certain courtesy and honor in his work. His "manners" along with his grace and brilliance in the enemy's camp, is why I admire him so much. Plus, for the way he twisted his words. A man that loves word play. ::sigh:: Melody From filthy_pretty at yahoo.ca Sun Jan 19 16:12:40 2003 From: filthy_pretty at yahoo.ca (Lurker#3412) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 11:12:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: Vernon's office In-Reply-To: <1042990665.2441.35965.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030119161240.8599.qmail@web41506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50113 What I do find odd is that there's a baker's shop opposite his office. It's a building with at least nine floors and has its own car park. I would have expected to find it on an industrial estate/ business park rather than apparently in the middle of town. ~Eloise I had always assumed that it was in the lobby or lunch area of another building. Is this probable in England? I know that where I live the industrial areas (if they are large) have small sandwhich shops or delies (sp?). After all, if there are plenty of business types about, a bakery could make a good revenue. Kathryn (who is fascinated by the differences in sandwhich shops) From dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 19 16:23:46 2003 From: dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com (dudemom_2000 ) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 16:23:46 -0000 Subject: The REAL reason Snape's hair is greasy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50114 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Melody " wrote: > Sinead 1916 wrote: > > Anyway, I theorize that Snape's greasy hair > > and overall unattractive appearance (yellowish teeth, sallow skin, > > etc.)is all a front. In reality he is quite dead sexy. He has to > > *cover up* his dead sexiness because if he didn't all the female > > students would be swooning over him and never get any work done. > > Without his faux-greasiness, he'd be a constant distraction ;-) ************* I am a new poster too... I think Snape's overall appearance is because he is still "undercover." He appears to have always been on standby in case Voldomort returns and he has to go back and spy again. All of Snape's behavior points to him still being considered acceptable to the Death Eaters and Voldomort. (hence a great spy!) I think Malfoy probably tells his father about Snape and what goes on at Hogwarts so they will be more inclined to believe he is one of them. Just a thought. From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sun Jan 19 17:43:51 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 09:43:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Evil!Lupin explains it all for you In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030119174351.35353.qmail@web40508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50115 I know I've posted a reply to Pippin's post already, but I forgot to address one of Pippin's points. Pippin wrote: > ...most people think that Harry is right [in the way that he thinks about Lupin as opposed to the way Lupin presents himself in his confession] and Lupin is just beating up on himself. People have come up with a whole lot of reasons that Lupin's conscience *might* have been weighing in on both sides of the issue. But these are conjecture.< I replied: >>> I don't agree. Lupin says in his confession: "...I had led three fellow students into becoming Animagi illegally." Whatever anyone may say, Lupin here is obviously being too hard on himself. How could he lead "the ringleaders of their little gang" into becoming Animagi? IMO you couldn't make James and Sirius do anything against their will,.<<< Pippin answered: Well, not against their will maybe, but Hermione sure managed to railroad Harry and Ron into that polyjuice caper, and nobody would describe her as the leader of Harry's little gang. And Ron ran the chess game in PS/SS. We just don't know what the dynamics were. My turn again : OK - you remember that scene in CoS? That's Episode 2. Now for Episode 1... ========================================= ?Remus, what can we do to make your transformations easier?? asked James. "Oh, there is a way," said Remus slowly, dropping his voice still further with a quick glance across the Gryffindor common room at the prefect. "Of course, it would be difficult. And dangerous, very dangerous. We'd be breaking about fifty school rules, I expect, and also a couple of Wizarding World laws along the way -" "If, in a month or so, you feel like explaining, you will let us know, won't you?" said Sirius irritably. "All right," said Remus coldly. "What you?d need to do is to get inside the Shrieking Shack at full moon but so that I wouldn?t hurt you." "But that's impossible," James said as Sirius laughed. "No, it's not," said Remus. "All you need to do is to become Animagi." "What's that?" said Sirius and James together. "McGonagall mentioned it in class a few weeks ago -" "D'you think we've got nothing better to do in Transfiguration than listen to McGonagall?" muttered Sirius. The best ideas for pranks often came to Sirius during Transfiguration. "An animagus is a person who can transform into an animal at will. Think about it! You could change into some big animal. You?d be able to control me. We could have so much fun! We?d probably be able to spend the time outside the Shrieking Shack, if you turned out to be very big animals." "This Animagi stuff sounds a bit dodgy to me," said Sirius, frowning. "What if we were stuck in animal form forever?" "C?mon, you?re so smart, you?d never mess it up," said Remus, waving his hand impatiently. A little while after: Sirius turned, speechless, to James, who had another worry. "D'you realize how much we're going to have to steal, Remus? I don't know if this is a good idea ......? Remus shut the book with a snap. "Well, if you two are going to chicken out, fine," he said. There were bright pink patches on his cheeks and his eyes were brighter than usual. "I don't want to break rules, you know. I think the pain that I suffer during my transformations is far worse than becoming illegal Animagi. But if you don't want to have loads of fun and help me in the process, I'll go straight to Madam Pince now and hand the book back in =' "I never thought I?d see the day when you'd be persuading us to break rules," said Sirius. "All right, we'll do it." "How long will it take to make, anyway?" said James as Remus, looking happier, opened the book again. "I'd say it'd be ready in about two years, if we can get all the ingredients." "Two years?" said Sirius. "We could have so much fun just using the invisibility cloak and the Marauder?s Map? Maybe we shouldn?t do this?" But Remus? eyes narrowed dangerously again, and he added swiftly, "But it's the best plan we've got, so full steam ahead, I say.? ========================================= Does that sound plausible? It doesn't to me. I'm sorry, but I can't see Remus Lupin saying "C'mon, guys, it hurts so much! Do break the law! it's not as important as helping me bear my pain! And you could have so much fun in the process!" But I can picture James and Sirius saying: "Remus, we want to help you! We've seen how bad you look after the full moon, and we want to make it a little better," etc. And Remus, after much coaxing, finally gives in. Ii could also be that they didn't even tell Remus they were going to do it right from the start. Maybe they told him when they were half done, so it would have been a shame to stop when they were so close to finishing. That way, Lupin phrase "I'd lead three students into becoming Animagi illegally" makes a lot of sense - he didn't even have a chance of stopping them, which made it even worse for him. But that's still beating oneself up. As for Ron solving the Chess Challenge, he was the only one who was able to play chess. Harry and Hermione weren't nearly as good. Regards, Maria, who thought of that little bit of fanfiction while looking at the full moon last night. ;) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kewiromeo at aol.com Sun Jan 19 18:25:29 2003 From: kewiromeo at aol.com (kewiromeo at aol.com) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 13:25:29 EST Subject: What is the major plot of OOP? Message-ID: <152.1a940b42.2b5c4799@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50116 Jim Ferer, who can't pronounce "wpfositpoi" wrote: Wpfositpoi:"Does anyone have any guesses on what the major plot of OOP will be? ?? We've all speculated on smaller plot lines, character fates, etc. but there must be some story that sets all of that in motion.? It would introduce new aspects of the wizarding world, information on the past and be loaded with danger and, of course, a mystery." We just can't know.? We're all so deprived over the last two years plus we all feel like grasping at straws, but we all have to admit we just don't know.? There are open threads and hints JKR has dropped: Snape has taken off on an important, dangerous mission.? We'll probably hear more. Hagrid and Maxime have a mission, too, and we may see and hear more about Giants.? We could even meet one. We'll meet the "old crowd," the Enemies of Voldemort, the (?)Order of the Phoenix, perhaps?? We'll find out something about Arabella Figg. There will be serious conflict with the Ministry.? It will affect Dumbledore, Harry, Arthur or Percy Weasley, or all of them. Love is in the air. It's likely we'll spend time outside Hogwarts. We'll hear Harry's and his parents' backstory. Me: I think for one thing JKR had said that the Order of the phoenix isn't a group of people. It has something to do withe the phoenix itself. Something about the order in which the particual phoenix gave a feather...and if not, maybe phoenix can create a twin every once in a while. Instead of one bird emerging from the ashes, why not two? Now ask yourself this question...what came first, the phoenix of the ashes? Tzvi of Brooklyn The Youngest Death Eater [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From flamingstarchows at att.net Sun Jan 19 17:38:28 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 11:38:28 -0600 Subject: some pointless questions from GOF References: Message-ID: <00b501c2bfe1$943a7100$b611570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 50117 >suzie_t666 at h... writes: >1. Why oh why did Crouch Jr.-as-Moody teach Harry to resist the >Imperius Charm in the 4th year DADA lessons? Melody: After all, Voldie was not shocked in the graveyard when Harry resisted his imperius. Oh the Deadeaters were but not Voldie. He seems more amused by it. *** Me: from GoF (First American edition, hardback) "You won't?" said Voldemort quietly, and the Death Eaters were not laughing now. "You won't say no? Harry, obedience is a virtue I need to teach you before you die...Perhaps another little dose of pain?" To me, this does not imply that he was amused, but rather startled by his response. In other parts, it was stated that Voldemort "laughed softly" or his "lipless mouth was smiling". I think Voldemort was just as surprised as the rest of the Death Eaters that Harry was able to resist him. ~Cathy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From flamingstarchows at att.net Sun Jan 19 17:42:03 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 11:42:03 -0600 Subject: some pointless questions from GOF References: Message-ID: <00c801c2bfe2$14763340$b611570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 50118 Paul Smith: >1. Why oh why did Crouch Jr.-as-Moody teach Harry to resist the >Imperius Charm in the 4th year DADA lessons? Me: I wondered about this as well, but then decided that Crouch Jr. simply thought that Voldemort was so powerful that Harry would not be able to throw him off. (Good for Harry, bad for Voldemort.) ~Cathy~ From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sun Jan 19 19:09:51 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody ) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 19:09:51 -0000 Subject: Voldie was not shocked ( was: some questions...) In-Reply-To: <00b501c2bfe1$943a7100$b611570c@pavilion> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50119 suzie_t666 writes: > >1. Why oh why did Crouch Jr.-as-Moody teach Harry to resist the > >Imperius Charm in the 4th year DADA lessons? > Melody (me): > After all, Voldie was not shocked in the graveyard > when Harry resisted his imperius. Oh the Deadeaters were but not > Voldie. He seems more amused by it. Cathy wrote: >from GoF (First American edition, hardback) >"You won't?" said Voldemort quietly, and the Death Eaters were not >laughing now. "You won't say no? Harry, obedience is a virtue I >need to teach you before you die...Perhaps another little dose of >pain?" > To me, this does not imply that he was amused, but rather startled >by his response. In other parts, it was stated that Voldemort >"laughed softly" or his "lipless mouth was smiling". I think >Voldemort was just as surprised as the rest of the Death Eaters that >Harry was able to resist him. Startled? You read Voldemort's reaction that a fourteen-year-old boy broke his powerful magic curse imperius as started? If I was a extremely powerful dark wizard that everyone ran from and feared and a small fourteen-year-old boy was able to resist my curse, the same boy who at the age of *one* ripped me from my body, if I was him, I would be beyond outrage. I would *definitely* not be able to control my voice to say *quietly* "You won't?" Come now, Voldemort was reaching a fever pitch before he struck Harry with the imperius. He was demanding Harry to answer him. He said GoF Ch34), "Answer me! Imperio!" With "imperio" in italics. Voldemort was getting excited. He was building up annoyance, and then he just dropped it? Like that? Would he not also react *more* annoyed Harry would resist his imperius? Yet, he didn't. He did calm down and become restrained enough to work out what to do next. Seems to me, and yes my opinion is bias to MAGICAL DISHWASHER, Voldemort knew what was going on and knew his lines of the event. Are you even saying Barty Jr., Mr. Faithful Servant to Big Daddy Voldie, did not owl EvilBabyVoldemort with this fascinating news that Harry can resist the imperius? Seems Voldie wanted to see if the brat could resist Crucio too. I bet he loved that Harry felt that pain. The brat has amazing resistance to so much already whether it is innate or charmed on him. So, while this is a thread on our interpretation of the text and I respect your view, frankly Voldie was too controlled then for me to believe he did not expect Harry to throw that curse off. The deadeaters did not and it shows by their silence. They were shocked little teenager Harry Potter can resist such a strong imperius curse. They were dumbfounded, but not Voldemort. He never lost a step. That takes a lot of control or rather pre-knowledge. He kept to his plan and kept to what he wanted to do in the first place. Voldemort is not stupid nor is he that careless now. The only thing he forgot was the extremely rare, probability impossible, chance that his and Harry's wands, *if* they both cast a spell at the same time, cause priori incantatem. It is at that point we see Voldemort loose control and freak out. He is looks (GoF Ch 34) "fearful" and "astonished". He also "shrieks". It is then that Voldemort is started but not before. He is too controlled to be truly started. Melody From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 19 19:50:50 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 11:50:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: some pointless questions from GOF In-Reply-To: <00c801c2bfe2$14763340$b611570c@pavilion> Message-ID: <20030119195050.37797.qmail@web20004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50120 --- FlamingStar Chows wrote: > Paul Smith: > >1. Why oh why did Crouch Jr.-as-Moody teach Harry > to resist the > >Imperius Charm in the 4th year DADA lessons? > > Me: > I wondered about this as well, but then decided that > Crouch Jr. > simply thought that Voldemort was so powerful that > Harry would not be > able to throw him off. (Good for Harry, bad for > Voldemort.) > > ~Cathy~ Well, I understand trying it on all the students initially. It gives Crouch Jr. and the DEs an idea of who can be most easily controlled. But I don't undersatnd the lessons. Maybe he did think Voldemort was just that powerful. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From jodel at aol.com Sun Jan 19 20:50:52 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 15:50:52 EST Subject: Fleur/Snape's Hair and other randomness Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50121 Being dependent upon the American edition myself. I also saw no direct statement that Fleur was intending to get a job at Hogwarts, specifically. My take was that she intended to get a job in England, probably Hogsmeade. (Madame Rosemeta would probably take her on in a New York minute. What publican wouldn't leap at the chance to have a veela tending the bar? And Fleur would have ample opportunity to "improve her English", too.) As to Snape's hair; I've always had a fondness for the fanfic proposal that he doused it in Sleekeasy because it is curly. A Snape with a mop of Grangeresque frizz would not necessarily be any more attractive than one sporting his characteristic oily lankness, mind you. But in a room full of boiling cauldrons frizz might very well be an expected byproduct. And one which would be very much in the way. At least oily lankness can be tucked behind one's ears and be forgotten about. (It does seem most likely that if Snape's hair is not simply the way it grows, it would be that way for some practical reason of his own.) As for Arabella Figg as the new DADA teacher; Well, it's certainly *possible*, but I'm not convinced. Mrs. Figg clearly already *has* a function in Dumbledore's grand design. And it is not likely to have become any less important with Voldemort back, in England, in person. Besides, the DADA professor has been a freshly introduced character with each of the last three books. It works. Why break the pattern? And, besides, isn't it about time we got a presumed-to-be-strong female character apart from Hermione who actually gets to *do* something? Why this resistance to new characters, anyway? We've met new characters in every book so far. Some of them have become fairly important players, too. And as for the 4th year House Cup, Gryffandor won the House Cup. Gryffandor *always* wins the House Cup. The possibility that the tiny wizard Vernon Dursley nearly knocked down on the first of November may have been Flitwick is a non-issue. We have no idea how long Flitwick has even been a teacher at Hogwarts. (That Minerva was already on staff is evident by Dumbledore having addressed the cat as Professor McGonagall.) It is quite possible that Flitwick has joined the Hogwarts staff since LV's first fall after a sucessful career elsewhere. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amani at charter.net Sun Jan 19 21:17:00 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 16:17:00 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Witchcraft and Wizardry: What do they teach at Hogwarts???? References: <3E294797.000001.39693@i3a2c5> Message-ID: <00c701c2c000$1b13a340$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50122 SophineClaire: What was so special about Lily's so-called-save-my-baby charm that only she could do?? Why not James or Sirius or Remus or Peter?. Is it because she is his mother? she's a female? Rita: No, it's simply because JKr chose to be so. She could have had James sacrifice his life and the effect would have been just the same, a parent's love is supposed to be the strongest, isn't it? Me: There was also a major difference in the two situations of Lily and James. Lily had the chance to live. Voldemort /told/ her to stand aside so he could kill Harry (one of the reasons I ascribe to the theory that Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor through his father, and that Trelawney's first prediction was that the Gryffindor line would bring down the Slytherin line, giving Voldemort cause to attack James and Harry but not Lily), whereas James did not recieve this chance. Although I'm sure we all know James would have done the same as Lily, the situations /were/ different. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 19 21:31:28 2003 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82 ) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 21:31:28 -0000 Subject: Vernon's office (was: Flitwick/Missing 24 hours) In-Reply-To: <4a.16c8dc56.2b5bee44@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50123 > What I do find odd is that there's a baker's shop opposite his office. > It's a building with at least nine floors and has its own car park. I would > have expected to find it on an industrial estate/ business park rather than > apparently in the middle of town. > > ~Eloise Me: It's not really that strange I work in an 8 floor office block, with it's own car park and we're right next to the main highstreet - it is litterally right across the road. There are also several other firms near by that are in the same relative possition to the highstreet. I'd never thought of the small man being Flitwick though I always presumed he was the same person that Harry recognised in the leaky cauldron. IIRC Vernon bumped into a short man, Harry recalls and short man when he goes through all the " strange people who seem to know him" and then recognises him in the pub. Michelle From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 19 18:45:25 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 18:45:25 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Vernon's office/Flitwick References: <1042990665.2441.35965.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001a01c2bfea$ede11980$4c7c0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 50124 > Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 07:04:20 EST > From: eloiseherisson at aol.com > Subject: Vernon's office (was: Flitwick/Missing 24 hours) > > He drives from Little Whinging, 'towards town' and it is 'on the edge of > town' that he first starts seeing wizards. > > I interpret that as meaning a local town, rather than London. This of course is the only point so far that we have seen both the wizard and the muggle communities side by side. It suggests to me (at least from Vernon's perspective) that the wizardly population is quite high, if there are that many wizards about in such an unpromising location. Being new here (big hi to everyone) I don't know if the wizard:muggle ratio has been discussed - I'd be grateful if someone could point me at the relevant thread if so... > What I do find odd is that there's a baker's shop opposite his office. > It's a building with at least nine floors and has its own car park. I would > have expected to find it on an industrial estate/ business park rather than > apparently in the middle of town. Not really, if you look around business parks and the like, there are often shops selling sandwiches and the like - people working there have to get their lunches somewhere! Bendithion Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From sevothtarte at gmx.net Sun Jan 19 19:00:36 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 20:00:36 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: some pointless questions from GOF In-Reply-To: <00c801c2bfe2$14763340$b611570c@pavilion> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50125 Cathy: >I wondered about this as well, but then decided that Crouch Jr. >simply thought that Voldemort was so powerful that Harry would not be >able to throw him off. The plan was to kill Harry, not to turn him into a puppet manipulated by LV. So, from Crouch Jr.'s point of view, it didn't matter much if Harry could resist Imperio or not, since there are plenty of other spells with which LV could overpower him until he finished him off with AK. Also, Crouch Jr. had to behave as Moody-like as possible. Letting his disguise slip would have done greater harm (at this time) than an Imperio-immune Harry. Whoever said that Barty hated the Imperio himself has a strong point, too, I think. Torsten From starropal at hotmail.com Sun Jan 19 20:21:56 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 14:21:56 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:The REAL reason Snape's hair is greasy! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50126 Sushi said: >1. Hair and skin > >I don't remember who first forwarded this theory on one of my fic >lists, but it's the best explanation I've ever found for limp, greasy hair: >he's standing over cauldrons all day. But that doesn't work for when he was younger. *jumps on the theorizing band wagon* What if its a curse? Remember, "Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in seventh year..." (GoF, ch 27) What if there's a greasy hair curse? Sushi: >2. Skin (con't.) > >Severus doesn't leave the dungeons very much. Totally agree. Sushi: >3. Teeth and Bitterness > >If Snape loves his job, I'll eat my aviation shears. This man is >a sullen, angry, bitter academic if I ever saw one, and he's got to do >*something* to deal with it. ..... > Nicotine Okay I personally don't feel Snape hates teaching, but I'm sure that that's been discussed before so I won't go into that. Anyway, I don't think anyone smokes in the books do they? I think coffee and tea might be why. I can just see Snape going over to his cabinet and pulling out the can of coffee, just to find it empty, "Grr!" Looks at class schedule rubbing temple from caffeine head ache, "I got Harry Potter's class today! Great, just great." sighs, "Maybe torturing Longbottom will alleviate the pain in my head..." >4. Voice I think he speaks like that to sound threatening. All the time. He has created a persona that is meant to bring fear from his students. This is his comfort zone, he's safe and in control. Part of that persona? His voice. But, when his authority is being questioned, when he has to deal with insecurities (from his school days for instance) he loses all that. In PoA ch 19 pages 360-361 (US paperback) he _shouts_ looking "quite deranged" and _"shrieks"_ looking "madder than ever." The voice is, in my opinion, is more mental than physical. Star Opal - who is is weirded out by the phrase "sexier than socks on a rooster" _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From wrclarke at buffalo.edu Sun Jan 19 20:37:47 2003 From: wrclarke at buffalo.edu (islandbwoy2003 ) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 20:37:47 -0000 Subject: book 5 speculations Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50127 Hi. Its my first post, and think that I know Voldemort's plot for book 5. I think that he'd have Malfoy use Fudge to put Deatheaters inside the school,instead of firing Dumbledore or attacking Harry. They could turn the students against them by showing that Harry is the "privileged" child that Snape is always arguing about, which could easily be accomplised after Cedric's death and the events in COS. Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw have not had the success of the other houses, and it would be easy for the Deatheaters could merge their talents with Slytherin. He may try to appoint people like McNair as the Magical creatures teacher, or even his wife as the new DADA teacher. Although Mcnair might not do more than scare the kids after the Buckbeak incident, Mrs Malfoy could win over students and gather information about its operations, if she can pretend to be pleasant. She could also make sure that her baby and his friends get extra attention in th Dark arts than the others, while also learning what side Snape is on. Those two probably have some sort of past together, and she could bring him back to the dark side or spread gossip about his past to her son if he's on the wrong side. Also, Malfoy might try to replace a House leader like Snape or Sprout with himself, or someone else. Proffessor Sprout may be to shaken up after Cedric's death to continue, and he could offer to "help" her by giving her a long vacation, and it would send the message to Snape that they are watching him and have more power than he thinks. Dumbledore would have to counter by hiring his own people to keep control. I think that either Fleur, Bill and/or Charlie Weasley would be great choices because they would seem like bad ones. But they all seem talented, have close ties with Gryfinndor, and in Fleur's case, she helps form an alliance with Beuxbatons. With a schoolful of house elves and possible support from Krum's friends at Durmstrang, this creates a decent army under Harry's command when Dumbledore passes the torch to him. Whatever the main plot is, this book will see the formation of the two armies, and will probably have the children defending the school, much like another series which I won't mention, but would explain the major deaths that would have to occur. William Clarke From starropal at hotmail.com Sun Jan 19 20:51:35 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 14:51:35 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldie was not shocked ( was: some questions...) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50128 > > Melody (me): > > After all, Voldie was not shocked in the graveyard > > when Harry resisted his imperius. Oh the Deadeaters were but not > > Voldie. He seems more amused by it. > > >Cathy wrote: > >from GoF (First American edition, hardback) > >"You won't?" said Voldemort quietly, and the Death Eaters were not > >laughing now. "You won't say no? Harry, obedience is a virtue I > >need to teach you before you die...Perhaps another little dose of >pain?" > > > To me, this does not imply that he was amused, but rather startled > >by his response. In other parts, it was stated that Voldemort > >"laughed softly" or his "lipless mouth was smiling". I think > >Voldemort was just as surprised as the rest of the Death Eaters that > >Harry was able to resist him. Melody: >Seems to me, and yes my opinion is bias to MAGICAL DISHWASHER, >Voldemort knew what was going on and knew his lines of the event. I interpreted Voldemort's speaking "quietly" as a calm before the storm. The next time he (LV) uses his wand he doesn't say anything witty or wait for Harry to raise his wand, he just fires. I think he's really, REALLY angry, but in a quiet, menacing, spooky sort of way. This would give another reason (along with shock at Harry's ability to withstand Imperius) for the DEs to not be laughing anymore. Think about it: There's Harry standing dazed while he's fighting the curse. Your master is winning, all is right with the world. Then, the kid breaks out of it and LV says quietly, "You won't?" All I can imagine is another shiver going through the circle of Death Eaters. Star Opal "They who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night." Edgar Allan Poe _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM: Try the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Jan 19 21:59:57 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 21:59:57 -0000 Subject: Flitwick/Missing 24 hours In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50129 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "christi0469 " wrote: > ... ... ... In the first chapter of PS/SS Vernon bumps into and just > about knocks over a tiny wizard with a squeaky voice. Could this be Prof. Flitwick? ...edited... > -end this part- bboy_mn: True the wizard is discribed as 'tiny' but let's remember that Flintwick is only about 30 inches tall, based on the fact that he needs to stand on a pile of books to be able to see over his desk. It would be one thing for Uncle Vernon to bump into someone odd who was 5 feet tall, for an adult that is a tiny person. But it would have been a substantial and suprising enough event to bump into someone 30" tall that Uncle Vernon would have displayed more than a little reaction. Vernon was rattled, but, based on the text, he was rattled because he was hugged by a stranger in a voilet cloak, and called a Muggle. I always suspected it might have been Dedalus Diggle (who lives in Kent), who is described as a "little man in a top hat". Although, the scene in the Leaky Cauldron doesn't mention him dressed in purple (although, that's how I always saw him) and the scene outside Vernon's office doesn't mention a top hat. In conclusion, I think we would have seen a stronger reaction from Vernon if he had been hugged by a 30" high man in a purple cloak. -bboy_mn-end this part- christi: or does Vernon work in London? -end this part- bboy_mn: >From Central London to East Central Surrey (Reigate) is about 17mi/27km. From Central London to Central Surry (Guildford) is about 27mi/43km. With about 2/3 to 3/4 of that driving inside the M25 Loop which is a major freeway that circles the city of London and it's immediated suburbs. I have to assume all traffic inside that loop is heavy and slow. On the other hand, in Surrey are the reasonably large towns of Guildford, Working, and Epson. Nearby is Crawley in West Sussex. Driving distances would be about the same (Riegate to Guildford approx 14miles) but he would miss the heavy inner city traffic. My opinion is that he drove to one of these towns in Surrey. When Harry askes Vernon to take him to London, Vernon doesn't make it sound like an everyday occurrance. Just a thought. bboy_mn From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 19 21:20:40 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 13:20:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: DADA teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030119212040.56399.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50130 I think the new DADA teacher will probably be both the logical and surprising pick. Namely Snape himself! After all he IS highly qualified. The only drawback to this is of course his other anti-Voldemart duties which as been noted will take him away from the school for long periods. So he'd need a capable subsitute when he's gone. Still, in these troubled times he IS the best when he's around and, if he can keep his relationship with Harry on a high enough plane, possibly very helpful to Potter himself. I think now that it's crunch time, the evolution of the Snap-Potter relationship, which never will be buddy-buddy of course will be very interesting. As for Fleur, I interpreted her comment about getting a job "here" to mean at Hogwarts. But DADA? I don't think she'd be qualified for that! If she IS a new teacher next year, wouldn't it be more logical for her to take Snap's potions job? I would imagine that Ms. Rowlings could have a lot of fun with her teaching the students some charm potions! Huggs Becky From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sun Jan 19 22:12:55 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 14:12:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldie was not shocked ( was: some questions...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030119221255.71298.qmail@web40508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50131 Melody: <> Cathy wrote: > > To me, this does not imply that he was amused, but rather startled by his response. In other parts, it was stated that Voldemort "laughed softly" or his "lipless mouth was smiling". I think Voldemort was just as surprised as the rest of the Death Eaters that Harry was able to resist him.<< Melody: >Seems to me, and yes my opinion is bias to MAGICAL DISHWASHER, >Voldemort knew what was going on and knew his lines of the event. Star Opal: <> Me: I agree with Star Opal. The first time I read those lines they reminded me of Star Wars: Return of the Jedi. Remember when the Emperor was deep-frying Luke with eckeltricity and Luke didn't die, but even had enough strength left to moan and move a little, the Emperor didn't yell at him in rage, but just fired another bolt of lightning. That whole scene, actually, reminded me of the Graveyard scene in GoF. The two bad guys just seem so angry they're beyond words. Regards, Maria, contributing her two Knuts --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sun Jan 19 22:17:35 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 14:17:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Jobs Message-ID: <20030119221735.98749.qmail@web40506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50132 My father said recently that wizards don't have very many employment options - namely, they can only work in the MoM. We, of course, know that's not true - they can also work in Hogwarts, in shops, on the Knight Bus and Hogwarts Express. But that's still very little! So... any ideas for where else they can work *to earn money*? Death-eating and 'taking a year off to get some first-hand experience at DADA' do not count! Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Sun Jan 19 22:21:55 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 17:21:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: TBAY/SHIP: Romance on the Big Bang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030119222155.89846.qmail@web20414.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50133 It is a Dark and Stormy Night. Inside the Royal George, Cindy, Derannimer, and Gail are drinking to their favourite theories outlasting the Hurricane. A worried look is seen on George's face, as he scuttles to and fro supplying the customers with drinks, but he is maintaining calmness and rationality. At least, business is brisk. His tavern might be a heap of wreckage come June 21st, but he could always put his money away in a Swiss bank account before that and escape to a life of subversion in fanfic. The conversation is beginning to quiet, when the door of the pub swings open and in staggers a woman. Soaked from head to foot, her clothes ripped and muddied. "Eileen!" cries Cindy. "What's happened to you? Where's Elkins?" Eileen stares vaguely at Cindy. "Wh-who am I?" she says. "Eileen," repeats Cindy helpfully. "N-not Avery?" "No." "Or Peter Pettigrew?" "No." "Or Lucius Malfoy?" "Good heavens, no!" "Or Barty Crouch Jr. Please tell me I'm not Crouch Jr.! I have this feeling I might be." "Certainly not! What has Elkins been doing to you? You're Eileen. You're a sailor on the Big Bang. And a rabid R/Hr shipper." "But what's my *motivation?*" wails Eileen. "She's been CARPed too much," says Gail knowingly to Derannimer. "CARPed as every sycophant in the books. It leaves you oddly... disassociated." Derannimer nods. "Mirror-like, I know. What should we do?" "Win her over to Big Banging once and for all," says Cindy with an evil grin. "Eileen's a Big Bang dilettante, you know. One moment she's for Banging and the next she's doing the two-step with George. But this could all change today. Eileen," she says gently. "Don't you want to bang your ships?" Eileen stares blankly about. "Am I supposed to?" she asks. "Get her some brandy," says Cindy. "But I thought you didn't like Big Bang shipping!" whispers Derannimer. "I don't," says Cindy. "But it's part of the corruption process. Get her to bang her ships and we'll have her soul forever. Our most faithful servant." Derannimer nods, grinning, and approaches Eileen. "So how does R/Hr bang?" she asks. "Do ships bang?" asks Eileen. "Elkins doesn't bang ships." "Elkins put you under the Cruciatus curse and Imperio'ed you. Wouldn't you enjoy the pleasure... the very great pleasure... of giving Elkins tit for tat?" A light appears in Eileen's eye. "But how do ships bang?" she finally asks. Gail grins. "I've been giving some thought to Banging and SHIPs in general. And I've come to a conclusion; SHIPs can Bang--almost *any* ship can Bang. *But* not... oh dear, how can I put this. . . I don't mean a SHIP qua a SHIP. I mean a SHIP combined with something else." "A ship combined with a bloody ambush?" asks Cindy. "Precisely," says Derannimer. "I really like that. That can really Bang. See, here's the thing about Banging SHIPs: the SHIP itself does *not* bang. "Two people in love," does not Bang." "Crouch/Winky banged," says Eileen flatly. "Didn't you see that tidal wave on Theory Bay?" "Take your mind off Elkins, woman!" says Cindy. "At any rate, the point is, most SHIPs don't Bang by themselves. What *does* Bang with a Ship, now, is _what being in love makes people *do,* in reaction to outside circumstances_." "Oh, you mean Peter/Lily!" says Eileen happily. "My favourite theory!" Everyone gasps. "Wait a second," says Derannimer. "We're talking Hermione, Harry, and Ron here. Not... not... your twisted ship." "Trying to bang the trio's shipping is pointless," says Eileen. "Yeah!" says Cindy. "Because, you see, there are four loves. One is storge, and another is eros, and then there's philos and agape. JKR likes to bang storge, but no eros yet." "No, that's not why," says Eileen. "A minute." She goes to the door and whistles. A second later, a horse canters into the bar, and Eileen swings herself up into the saddle. "Get off that high horse!" shouts Derannimer. "That's Intentional Fallacy, that is." "So what?" says Eileen. "I happen to like my Intentional Fallacy. And, JKR has said that she plans to keep the trio shipping light and breezy. I don't have access to my browser right now, but I'm sure any Sugar Quiller lurking on the list could supply us with the quote from that Quote Research Thread of theirs." Eileen hops down off the horse. "And therefore, I'm shipping the trio so as to accomodate the bangs, not to bang itself. R/Hr it is." "But don't you like my bangy love triangle sceneario?" asks Derannimer. "Where Ron does something stupid because he's miserable about Harry and Hermione?" "No!" says Eileen. "I want the shipping to be funny. I want more Yule Ball-style stuff. Not serious, angst-inducing stuff. Forget Harry and Ron, heroes of tangled love stories. Here's to Harry and Ron, the dates from hell!" she shouts, swigging down her brandy. She jumps up on the table. "Besides," she says. "I think Hermione's going to be the one to fail Harry next in some way. She has it coming. She's been set up for a fall by the author, in my humble opinion. Though I like your Ron scenario, minus the love triangle. We could save it for Book Sevem! NO! TRIO SHIPPING SHOULD NOT BANG!" "And you make the decisions around here?" mutters Gail, patting Derannimer sympathetically on the back. "Now, Peter/Lily!" shouts Eileen, leaning down to take another glass of brandy from George. "Peter/Lily BANGS! Much more than any angsty trio love triangle! Much more than that stupid LOLLIPOPS!" "Watch it!" cries Cindy in terror. "Tabouli's been seen lurking about lately." "I DON'T CARE!" shouts Eileen, downing her brandy, and reaching for another glass. "Peter/Lily has Eros. It has Philos. It has Storge. It has Lust. It has Betrayal. It has a Love Triangle. It has a Bang! And it's Bent! Unlike that noble and beautiful Snape/Lily ship. Uggghhh." "Didn't Eileen used to be a sailor on the LOLLIPOPS?" asks Gail. Cindy nods. "It's always the ex-shippers who are that poisonous. But Eileen, JKR doesn't bang eros!" "Oh, how do you know, Cindy?" shouts Eileen. "We've got a while to go!" She jumps off the table. "Excuse me. I must go and find Elkins." She storms out into the storm. "But I thought she was through with Elkins," says Derannimer, confused. Cindy sighs. "No, she's still under the Imperius curse. That was just a small act of rebellion." "Small?" says Gail, holding her head in her hands. "George, could you get me an aspirin?" Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sun Jan 19 22:25:49 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 14:25:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA teacher In-Reply-To: <20030119212040.56399.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030119222549.71289.qmail@web40502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50134 Becky Walkden wrote: < Message-ID: <012e01c2c00b$03fed200$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50135 Pippin: Ginny would already melt into a pile of goo if Harry looked at her. Maria: I don't like H/H either, Pippin - we agree here . But I don't think I like Harry with anyone. Me: I'll second that. I'm not so adamant about any pairing in HP but that I /really/ want Harry to end up alone. Harry has /always/ struck me as the hero with the tragic past type. Yes, he's got the help of his friends, but whenever it comes down to things, he's /alone/. And I think, in some ways, he's destined to be that way. Voldemort, in my opinion, ruined some part of his life that is unfixable in the long run. I don't think Harry ever will find real, requited love. ...then again, I'm a total sucker for tragic heros, so it might just be me. ^_^;; --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Jan 19 22:55:11 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 22:55:11 -0000 Subject: DADA: Figg or ???? (was Snapes Hair) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50136 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jodel at a... wrote: > Jodel: > > As for Arabella Figg as the new DADA teacher; Well, it's certainly > *possible*, but I'm not convinced. Mrs. Figg clearly already *has* > a function in Dumbledore's grand design. > > ...edited... > > Why this resistance to new characters, anyway? We've met new > characters in every book so far. ...edited... > > -JOdel bboy_mn: Personally I think the new DADA teacher will be Mrs. Figg. But I think the biggest feaking mind blowing new teacher would be Mrs. Weasley. I think that would be soooo cool. Poor Ron... Unfortunatly, as much fun as I think it will be, I don't think it will happen. This is not a new idea, quite a while back we discussed it to death. I still think it would be so funny to have Ron's mum there fussing overhim all the time. So, realistically, I vote for Mrs. Figg. This is how I see the scene going. -------DANGER-----WARNING-----FICTION--NOT CANON------ Harry and Ron walk into the DADA classroom busy and distacted talking to each other. As Harry steps in the room, he freezes in his track, while Ron continues on to his seat. "Mrs. Figg?!?" Harry says astonished. Now, all eyes are on Harry. Mrs. Figg walks over to Harry, wraps her arm around him and kisses him on the top of the head. "Hello Harry dear, so nice to see you again. Stop by later and we'll have some tea and chocolate cake." "But... but... but..." Harry turns 10 shades of red. "Take you seat now, Dear." "But... but... but..." Harry mutters as he stumbles to his seat. ------------------------------------------------------ Come on now, that's funny stuff. Harry walks in and find out that his babysitter is his new Defense Against Dark Arts teacher. Plus she singles him out by name and with a kiss. Can you imagine how embarassed he is; embarassment compounded by being totally dumbfounded. That good stuff. Having Figg be the teacher is worth it for that scene alone. It's going to be shock to discover that Mrs. Figg is a witch. That fact compounded by her being the new Dark Arts teacher, is really going to throw Harry for a loop. The only worse embarassement would be if it was Mrs. Weasley. "Why this resistance to new characters, anyway?" Well, existing characters are all we have to work with. A new character could be introduced, but other than acknowledge the possibility, where can we go with it? Just a few thought, and the hope that the moderators will not find my teeny tiny little illustration too far out of line. bboy_mn From melclaros at yahoo.com Sun Jan 19 23:02:19 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros ) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 23:02:19 -0000 Subject: Jobs In-Reply-To: <20030119221735.98749.qmail@web40506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50137 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Maria Kirilenko wrote: > > My father said recently that wizards don't have very many employment options - namely, they can only work in the MoM. We, of course, know that's not true - they can also work in Hogwarts, in shops, on the Knight Bus and Hogwarts Express. But that's still very little! > > So... any ideas for where else they can work *to earn money*? Death- eating and 'taking a year off to get some first-hand experience at DADA' do not count! > > Maria This is funny because during a family discussion at the dinner table last night my son and I were getting into something about the point system at Hogwarts and it morphed into the situation in PS/SS where Slytherin won the house cup until Dumbledore decided that, no they didn't. That then morphed into a discussion of the general mistreatment of Snape and "Why doesn't he just quit?" to which Dad answered, far too pragmatically "Well he has to eat!" So for most of today I've been wandering around thinking, "maybe that's part of why he joined the DE's." I can picture him at 18, too smart for his own good, refusing to bury himself in some dead-end job in an apothocary shop. But hey, he had to eat! "Now, this Voldemort is making an interesting offer...." We've been given a limited view of the WW, that's true. We have a snapshot of the government--there is certainly plenty of beaurocracy, lots of jobs there. The economic system is, by muggle standards primative (I haven't noticed any mention of corporations--CEO of a corporate giant pharmacutical company would be a great job for IQuit!Snape). There doesn't seem to be wizard financial markets of any sort--they even subcontract banking to goblins. We have hints of other options, the wizard wireless and the Daily Prophet must hire occasionally, and there seems to be no shortage of magazines. Publishing looks to be one of the most successful businesses in the WW. It's where I'd invest my knuts, if there was a market in which to do so! Perhaps this limited view of career options in the WW is because we are locked into learning about it as Harry learns about it. Perhaps as he experiences more of it, so will we. From kaesaauralia at cs.com Sun Jan 19 22:30:37 2003 From: kaesaauralia at cs.com (kaesaauralia at cs.com) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 17:30:37 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Jobs Message-ID: <130.19bc0770.2b5c810d@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50138 Maria asked: Well, there's mention of St. Mungo's Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries. Presumably there are doctors of some sort who work there. Bill works for Gringotts and Charlie studies dragons. There are probably other areas of Magizoology, and probably other areas of study that would nicely parallel the Muggle world's researchers-- they must need archeologists, linguists, Potions experts . . . There's professional Quidditch players, too. There's journalists and photographers, and probably artists, as Hogwarts has tons of paintings and statues. Anything I've forgotten? ~Kaesa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 19 22:30:56 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 14:30:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Jobs In-Reply-To: <20030119221735.98749.qmail@web40506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030119223056.73251.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50139 Maria Kirilenko wrote: Maria wrote My father said recently that wizards don't have very many employment options - namely, they can only work in the MoM. We, of course, know that's not true - they can also work in Hogwarts, in shops, on the Knight Bus and Hogwarts Express. But that's still very little! So... any ideas for where else they can work *to earn money*? Death-eating and 'taking a year off to get some first-hand experience at DADA' do not count! Me Actually there are a lot of employment options. One of the Wesley's works with dragons. There would also be animal handlers and breeders, agriculturalists and who makes all these magickal items that are sold in the stores? Everything from potions, wands, cauldrons and thousands of other items are available for sale so they definitely have manufacturing, even if the methods are slightly different. Then of course there would be managers and sales people, writers and really a great many of the types of jobs muggles have. The fact is, everything sold was produced by somebody! Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pacific_k at hotmail.com Sun Jan 19 23:17:50 2003 From: pacific_k at hotmail.com (Karie TGaHJ) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 15:17:50 -0800 Subject: H/H converging Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50140 Erica wrote: >Harry the milquetoast? There is a difference between arguing/disagreeing >with someone because of a difference of opinion and arguing just to be >contrary, to try to get the other's dander up. > >Do Harry and Hermione never argue/disagree? And isn't it just *possible* >that Harry sometimes defers to Hermione because she happens to be right? I don't think anyone would argue that Harry is a milk-toast, and that he certainly doesn't disagree to cause trouble, however, I believe that Harry's response to arguing has nothing to do with whether Hermione is right or not, and everything to do with the fact that Harry doesn't like to argue, particularly if he doesn't have to. He doesn't even like it if he's not involved--if it gets truly bad, he leaves. He _never_ tells Hermione he was annoyed that she just signed him up to be the secretary of SPEW. He doesn't discuss the Yule Brawl with Ron, because he doesn't want to argue. His response to verbal conflicts seems to be avoiding them if at all possible. Of course Harry defers to Hermione occasionally because she's right...and at least once, even when he thought she was right he gave her the silent treatment because she made him absolutely furious, and his response to people at that level is to pretend they don't exist. When he merely disagrees, or doesn't want to get involved, he bites his tongue or evades the question. Karie _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sun Jan 19 22:29:37 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 16:29:37 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Jobs References: <20030119221735.98749.qmail@web40506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3E2B26D1.6520C353@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50141 Maria Kirilenko wrote: > > My father said recently that wizards don't have very many employment > options - namely, they can only work in the MoM. We, of course, know > that's not true - they can also work in Hogwarts, in shops, on the > Knight Bus and Hogwarts Express. But that's still very little! > > So... any ideas for where else they can work *to earn money*? > Death-eating and 'taking a year off to get some first-hand experience > at DADA' do not count! > > Maria > What about all the support industries.. Who MAKES all those items in the shops? Who weaves magical thread into cloth to make invisibility cloaks? Who makes the bottles that can hold potions? Who makes cauldrons? Who delivers all of these to the stores? Who besides Lockhart writes all those books in the book store? Who builds wizard homes? Who repairs wizard homes? Who grows the wizards food or do they buy that from muggles? Who breeds post owls, magical pet rats that dance or fancy hipogriffs? Who makes saddles for flying horses? Who is Hagrid's tailor? Who makes wizard's furniture, like Molly's clock? There are a ton of jobs if you think about it long enough and try to see it from a wizard world's point of view. Jazmyn From grayhorsestudio at attbi.com Sun Jan 19 23:04:59 2003 From: grayhorsestudio at attbi.com (grayhorse ) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 23:04:59 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry/Ginny (Was: Ron's contribution) In-Reply-To: <012e01c2c00b$03fed200$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50142 Taryn wrote: This whole SHIP thing *can* be so interesting!! I really like the "Tale of Two Cities" theory (so EPIC!), but really, I subscribe to the HarryAlone theory. I would love for Harry to be happy, but I'm just not sure that's in the cards. I think he knows this himself. He has spent so much of his formative life acting a certain way DESPITE his emotions, that I'm not sure it'd be a good idea for him begin to act a certain way BECAUSE of his emotions. Then there's the idea of Harry as a quasi-Messiah figure, and the idea of "purity" comes to mind. I have to think about this some more, but it's an idea. JKR tells us over and over that Harry is "unlike any other boy" so I think one can't assume that SHIP (being a normal part of boyhood) is a given for him. I think JKR needs to keep Harry "untouchable" in some ways - he will never, can never, be a normal boy. Just as his scar sets him apart physically from those around him, who he is sets him apart emotionally from those around him. If Harry knows anything, it's that life isn't fair, and this may be another place we see this. Still thinking... K From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Jan 19 23:25:02 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 23:25:02 -0000 Subject: Jobs In-Reply-To: <20030119221735.98749.qmail@web40506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50143 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Maria Kirilenko wrote: > > My father said recently that wizards don't have very many employment options - namely, they can only work in the MoM. We, of course, know that's not true - they can also work in Hogwarts, in shops, on the Knight Bus and Hogwarts Express. But that's still very little! > > So... any ideas for where else they can work *to earn money*? Death-eating and 'taking a year off to get some first-hand experience at DADA' do not count! > > Maria bboy_mn: Actually, we had a similar discussion recently as part of another discussion; sort of a subtopic. Here is a link- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/49538 Read this and the links below it, for some general preceptions of the size and complexity of the wizard economy. In one of the sub-posts, will be a link to an even earler discussion. I think most common jobs exist in the magic world. The are wizard farmers who raise normal crops, but use magical methods to till the land, plant, harvest, and transport the crops. Other examples of ordinary jobs; Tom who runs the Leaky Cauldron, Rosmerette who runs the Three Broomsticks, Mr. Fortescue who makes ice cream. In Diagon Alley, the are cafes, clothing stores. Each store has to be back up by many other jobs. Take Mr. Fortescue for example, how hard is it to make ice cream? Milk, sugar, fruit, eggs. Well, mild and eggs means farmers. Fruit and sugar, since their production in the English climate is limited, have to be imported. Importers need warehouse, warehouses need warehouse workers, clerks, accountants, etc... There have to be production facilities for all the products made, production facilities mean production worker, for workers to work they need raw material. I could see a wizard of modest talent working in the Zonko's joke factory enchantine trick wands all day long. Another work packing dung bombs all day long. The key to seeing all the job is to not just look at the obvious out-front jobs, but think of all the jobs it take to support them. We know who drives and conducts the Knight Bus, but who built it, who made the curtains, who made the bed frames and mattresses, the sheets and other bedcover, etc... Any business you can pick has many many businesses and worker backing it up. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sun Jan 19 23:32:33 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody ) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 23:32:33 -0000 Subject: Voldie was not shocked In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50144 Star Opal wrote: > I interpreted Voldemort's speaking "quietly" as a calm before the >storm. The next time he (LV) uses his wand he doesn't say anything >witty or wait for Harry to raise his wand, he just fires. He still had his wits about him after he found out Harry could resist the imperius curse. He says after the event, (GoF Ch 34) "Harry obdience is a virtue I need to teach you before you die..." and then fires him with Crucio. He did say something witty before he fired again. And after that, when Harry hid behind the gravestone, he still kept his wits and teased Harry by saying "we are not playing hide-and-seek, Harry." He then procedes to taunt Harry to duel with him. "..it might even be painless...I would not know...I have never died..." That is chilling yes, but well chosen words. Voldemort is in complete control there. He is able to 'play with his food.' Voldemort was not thrown off by the fact Harry was able to shake off the imperius curse. Yes, he is angry...and excited, but he was not surprised by the imperius part. He still had a quick tongue and calm hand. >This would give another reason (along with shock at Harry's ability >to withstand Imperius) for the DEs to not be laughing anymore. Think >about it: There's Harry standing dazed while he's fighting the >curse. Your master is winning, all is right with the world. Then, the >kid breaks out of it and LV says quietly, "You won't?" All I can >imagine is another shiver going through the circle of Death Eaters. Now, these deadeaters are watching their master confront the little boy that destroyed their master at the tender age of one. They are not sure Voldie will win this time. They don't know what caused Harry to defeat Voldie the first time, but they must think that now Harry is trained a little, he must be more powerful now than he used to be. So, they must wonder if Voldie *can* defeat Harry. From their viewpoint, Voldie was winning *until* Harry showed signs of strength and threw off the imperius. It was then, they got afraid. Not of what Voldie will do to *Harry*, but of what Harry could do to *Voldemort*. They don't know what Harry capable of, but after that moment, they knew he is in fact special. Melody From christi0469 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 20 00:07:53 2003 From: christi0469 at hotmail.com (christi0469 ) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 00:07:53 -0000 Subject: Flitwick/Missing 24 hours In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50145 I suppose it could have been Diggle, though it would make me wonder why he was hanging about in Surrey when he apparently lives in Kent. Anyway, Vernon did say the man was "tiny" and that he had hugged Vernon about the waist, so whoever this wizard was I pictured him as being about the same size as a 4 to 6 year old child. My interpretation of the incident was that Vernon was quite shocked by this, but was too distracted by earlier events to react as he usually would. Christi T. > wrote: > > ... ... ... In the first chapter of PS/SS Vernon bumps into and just > > about knocks over a tiny wizard with a squeaky voice. Could this be > Prof. Flitwick? ...edited... > > -end this part- bboy replied > I always suspected it might have been Dedalus Diggle (who lives in > Kent), who is described as a "little man in a top hat". Although, the > scene in the Leaky Cauldron doesn't mention him dressed in purple > (although, that's how I always saw him) and the scene outside Vernon's > office doesn't mention a top hat. > > In conclusion, I think we would have seen a stronger reaction from > Vernon if he had been hugged by a 30" high man in a purple cloak. > -bboy_mn-end this part- From amani at charter.net Mon Jan 20 00:08:46 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 19:08:46 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA teacher References: <20030119212040.56399.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01d401c2c018$1a17a320$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50146 Becky: I think the new DADA teacher will probably be both the logical and surprising pick. Namely Snape himself! Me: EXCEPT that we know the new DADA teacher is a woman. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 01:42:45 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 01:42:45 -0000 Subject: From the Mouths of Babes. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50148 Sorry for the short post, but we've all been speculating about what will happen in book 5. I thought you might like to hear what some 9 to 17 year old kids had to say about it. (typical age 10 to 12) http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2003022499,00.html Oddly simplistic but at the sametime insightful. bboy_mn From galadriel1 at mail.charter.net Mon Jan 20 00:41:59 2003 From: galadriel1 at mail.charter.net (abhamghp ) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 00:41:59 -0000 Subject: neville longbottom Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50149 At the recommendation from another site, I re read CH 14 of GoF to investigate a little more into Neville's role in the series. It does seem to me that Moody/Crouch DID have the opportunity to not only give Neville the book about the gillyweed, but to also place Neville under the Imperius Curse while in his office. If you recall, Neville behaved strangely after that meeting. I've also read that Neville continues to operate under the curse, and that this is the basis for the theory that he may be the Quidditch captain in OotP. Along with this theory, someone speculated that Neville will do LV's bidding in book 5 and lead him to Harry. As choosing between right and wrong is an underlying theme in canon, and we see more and more Neville's strength of character, I believe he will be able to resist the Imperius curse as his parents couldn't and prove himself in this way. What do you think? "Galadriel" From galadriel1 at mail.charter.net Mon Jan 20 00:47:19 2003 From: galadriel1 at mail.charter.net (abhamghp ) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 00:47:19 -0000 Subject: Last word of series Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50150 When JKR revealed that the last word of book 7 may be "scar" it seemed to me that people were very eager to jump on the theory that LV was defeated by Harry and that his scar disappeared as a result. I have a slightly different theory. I read in a chat transcript that in book seven, JKR feels she has to explore in an epilogue what happens to the surviving characters in their post Hogwarts days. This says to me that Harry's scar will not disappear, as the last word of the book will occur long after LV has been defeated. Also, in the first chapter of SS, Dumbledore tells McGonagall that Harry will have that scar forever. Could it be that, in Harry's adult life, following his defeat of Voldie, he holds his son, who looks in every aspect just like him, except for the conspicuos absence of a lightning bolt shaped scar? Wouldn't the absence of such scar symbolize the gift of peace in the wizarding world that Harry and his friends have given subsequent generations? "Galadriel" From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Mon Jan 20 01:12:25 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 17:12:25 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA teacher References: <20030119212040.56399.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> <01d401c2c018$1a17a320$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50151 Becky said: I think the new DADA teacher will probably be both the logical and surprising pick. Namely Snape himself! To which Taryn replied: EXCEPT that we know the new DADA teacher is a woman. Me: well, maybe Snape IS a woman! -DM ----- Original Message ----- From: Taryn Kimel To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 4:08 PM Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] DADA teacher Becky: I think the new DADA teacher will probably be both the logical and surprising pick. Namely Snape himself! Me: EXCEPT that we know the new DADA teacher is a woman. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From my_severus_snape at hotmail.com Mon Jan 20 01:27:14 2003 From: my_severus_snape at hotmail.com (elysia_snape ) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 01:27:14 -0000 Subject: Fleur/Snape's Hair and other randomness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50152 Snapes Hair; All the years of brewing potions has had some permanent side effects on Snape, the magical potions exposure causes his hair and skin to take on a slick oily appearance. Also making his white skin a rather unattractive sallow colour. Fleur as a teacher? I don't think so, what are her qualifications apart from part magical creature! She could work at the bar or anywhere else. Mrs Figg would be a good choice seeing Dumbledore is "rounding" her up, otherwise hail to the new character! "Elysia" From the.gremlin at verizon.net Mon Jan 20 02:18:15 2003 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 20:18:15 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The REAL reason Snape's hair is greasy! Message-ID: <20030120021815.ZFOY21001.pop015.verizon.net@[127.0.0.1]> No: HPFGUIDX 50153 Sinead1916 wrote: "I've been reading some very interesting theories as to why Snape's hair is so greasy, and I've come up with my own theory. I warn you now; I'm a bit of a Snape fan, so the post might need to be taken with a grain of salt. Anyway, I theorize that Snape's greasy hair and overall unattractive appearance (yellowish teeth, sallow skin, etc.)is all a front. In reality he is quite dead sexy. He has to *cover up* his dead sexiness because if he didn't all the female students would be swooning over him and never get any work done. Without his faux-greasiness, he'd be a constant distraction ;-)" Ahh, the "why is Snape so sexy" thread. Your theory is quite an interesting one, but even Sirius mentions Snape being greasy in school, so I'm assuming he's just one of those men who doesn't put personal hygiene at the top of his list. Either that or it's the working with potions things. I mean, even his fingers are yellowed, IIRC. And Snape just doesn't strike me as the type of guy to notice that he's attractive. BTW, does he know that people make fun of his nose and his hair? I'm guessing he does, and just doesn't care. And even though he isn't physically attractive, his personality is rather seductive. The silky voice, the swishy robes, the wit, the sarcasm...it's very nice. :D -Acire, who is off to manipulate Sims. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From debmclain at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 02:25:27 2003 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie McLain ) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 02:25:27 -0000 Subject: Last word of series Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50154 "abhamghp " wrote: > When JKR revealed that the last word of book 7 may be "scar" it > seemed to me that people were very eager to jump on the theory that > LV was defeated by Harry and that his scar disappeared as a result. > I have a slightly different theory. I read in a chat transcript > that in book seven, JKR feels she has to explore in an epilogue what > happens to the surviving characters in their post Hogwarts days. > This says to me that Harry's scar will not disappear, as the last > word of the book will occur long after LV has been defeated. Also, > in the first chapter of SS, Dumbledore tells McGonagall that Harry > will have that scar forever. Could it be that, in Harry's adult > life, following his defeat of Voldie, he holds his son, who looks in > every aspect just like him, except for the conspicuos absence of a > lightning bolt shaped scar? Wouldn't the absence of such scar > symbolize the gift of peace in the wizarding world that Harry and > his friends have given subsequent generations? Me: This is EXACTLY what I thought too. Just like Harry looks exactly like his father (with the exception of his green eyes), I feel his son will look exactly like him, but without the scar. Now the question remains...will we ever meet his wife, or is she doomed to be in the epilogue too? ("Harry met a girl, fell in love, and married her. When their first child was born, Harry held his son and noticed he looked exactly like him, only there was no scar. The End). Someone wrote a while back that the line they thought it would be was McGonagall: "It was handy, that scar." That's my second runner-up, but I'm sticking with the birth of his first child/son. -Debbie From jprobins at ix.netcom.com Mon Jan 20 02:36:34 2003 From: jprobins at ix.netcom.com (James P. Robinson III) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 20:36:34 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Jobs In-Reply-To: <20030119221735.98749.qmail@web40506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030119202850.07649670@popd.ix.netcom.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50155 As the clock struck 02:17 PM 1/19/2003 -0800, Maria Kirilenko took pen in hand and wrote: >My father said recently that wizards don't have very many employment >options - namely, they can only work in the MoM. We, of course, know >that's not true - they can also work in Hogwarts, in shops, on the Knight >Bus and Hogwarts Express. But that's still very little! > >So... any ideas for where else they can work *to earn money*? Death-eating >and 'taking a year off to get some first-hand experience at DADA' do not count! > >Maria Well, there is also banking. I believe "curse breaking" is a WW equivalent for investment banking. It might be quite lucrative as it apparently involves tomb robbing and "bringing home [to the bank] lots of treasure." There is probably also a living to be made inventing and marketing new magical potions and gizmos. How about magical construction? Someone needs to build and repair wizard homes and buildings. There are apparently manufacturing type jobs, as there are firms that mass produce brooms. There are entrepreneurs like Ali Bashir trying to (illegally) import flying carpets. I think there is a wide range of potential WW jobs. Jim From selah_1977 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 02:36:17 2003 From: selah_1977 at yahoo.com (Ebony ) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 02:36:17 -0000 Subject: SHIP: The Yule Brawl--The Problem With Reading R/H in GoF Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50156 (The following two posts are excerpted from an essay originally posted at Fictionalley.org, where I serve as a founding Mod along with several other cool HP4GU veteran posters. Far be it from me to miss a great ship debate... and I'd love to discuss the points I bring up. --Eb) All Smoke and No Fire: The Trouble With R/H in GoF and Beyond An entire fandom knows that Ronald Weasley, the redheaded loyal best friend of Harry Potter, is starting to see their mutual friend, bossy, bushy-haired Hermione Granger in another light. His growing attraction to her is obvious as of GoF. After his epiphany of "Hermione, Neville's right?you are a girl " (348) he seems acutely aware of what she does and says. He repeatedly asks her who she's going to the ball with (352, 357). Once he sees her there with Viktor Krum, he is miserable during the Yule Ball and makes damned sure that Hermione knows it (360-361, 366-368, 376). When he learns that Krum has asked Hermione to visit him over the summer, Ron is so bothered that he pounds a pestle onto a table, completely unaware of what he's doing (446). The evidence and case for Ron's interest in Hermione is all but indisputable. The evidence and case for Hermione's interest in Ron has yet to be proven, however at least, in the context of GoF. To prove my point, I plan to examine three signal instances of the text in depth here. I don't want to quibble over isolated lines that can be pulled out of context by either H/H or R/H. I don't want to argue about semi-colons either; religious wars have been fought over those, and honestly, it just "ain't that deep". I will quote the entire passage first, and then delve into each incident. The three areas of GoF that I will conduct a close read of are from the chapters "The Unexpected Task", "The Yule Ball", and "Padfoot Returns". Although there are various other isolated incidents of R/Hitude throughout GoF, my shipmate QuidditchMom AKA Libbie has thoroughly shown an equal dispersal of H/H evidence in the novel. These are the passages that cannot be negotiated away by my ship so easily well, at least not until now. THE UNEXPECTED TASK ********************* "We should get a move on, you know . . . ask someone. He's right. We don't want to end up with a pair of trolls." Hermione let out a sputter of indignation. "A pair of... what, excuse me?" "Well - you know," said Ron, shrugging. "I'd rather go alone than with - with Eloise Midgen, say." "Her acne's loads better lately - and she's really nice!" "Her nose is off-center," said Ron. "Oh I see," Hermione said, bristling. "So basically, you're going to take the best-looking girl who'll have you, even if she's completely horrible?" "Er - yeah, that sounds about right," said Ron. "I'm going to bed," Hermione snapped, and she swept off toward the girls' staircase without another word. (GoF, UK paper, p. 344) ***************** The following is quoted from HP4GUer Linda McCabe with her express written permission: "Trolls. You know the twelve foot mountain troll that almost killed Hermione back in book 1? The nasty, smelly, foul creature who terrorized her. Ron didn't even consider asking Hermione, he was concerned about not having to go out with a troll! Hermione wasn't even on his radar screen even though she was supposedly his other best friend. I'd be mighty insulted by that exchange. He compounded his insult by describing Eloise Midgen in very uncomplimentary terms - someone who Hermione thinks is "really nice." Looks are more important to him than anything else. And females, especially bookish females can feel very insecure about their own looks. That conversation wouldn't endear him to me in the least." I couldn't have said it any better myself. I also noticed that this is a bit before Ron's epiphany about Hermione, that "you are a girl." He makes no overt overtures of interest towards Hermione at or up to this point. I see no Hepburn/Tracy in miniature there. I see Ron being not very nice, and Hermione taking offense. Sometimes a rose is a rose. And sometimes, you just have to call a spade a spade. On to one of the most pivotal scenes in this chapter Ron's epiphany. ************** Entering the common room, Harry looked around, and to his surprise he saw Ron sitting ashen-faced in a distant corner. Ginny was sitting with him, talking to him in what seemed to be a low, soothing voice. "What's up, Ron?" said Harry, joining them. Ron looked up at Harry, a sort of blind horror in his face. "Why did I do it?" he said wildly. "I don't know what made me do it! "What?" said Harry. "He - er - just asked Fleur Delacour to go to the ball with him," said Ginny. She looked as though she was fighting back a smile, but she kept patting Ron's arm sympathetically. "You what?' said Harry. "I don't know what made me do it!" Ron gasped again. "What was I playing at? There were people - all around - I've gone mad - everyone watching! I was just walking past her in the entrance hall - she was standing there talking to Diggory - and it sort of came over me - and I asked her!" Ron moaned and put his face in his hands. He kept talking, though the words were barely distinguishable. "She looked at me like I was a sea slug or something. Didn't even answer. And then - I dunno - I just sort of came to my senses and ran for it." "She's part veela," said Harry. "You were right - her grandmother was one. It wasn't your fault, I bet you just walked past when she was turning on the old charm for Diggory and got a blast of it - but she was wasting her time. He's going with Cho Chang." Ron looked up. "I asked her to go with me just now," Harry said dully, "and she told me." Ginny had suddenly stopped smiling. (GoF, UK paper, p. 347-348) ******************** Lots and lots going on here. We see Harry's preoccupation with his rejection by Cho, completely one-sided H/G (although Gin seems to be handling it okay, but then again, am not here to debate the demerits or lack thereof in H/G), and a Ron who is totally upset by his rejection by Fleur. Ron who called poor Eloise Midgen a "troll", with one glance from a pretty girl, feels quite a bit like a sea-slug. He is "ashen-faced", there is a sort of "blind horror in his face", and he moans. Obviously not a happy camper. Upon first read, I felt rather sorry for him. It couldn't have been pleasant to go through all that in public. One would hope this would reform the laddie that after rejection by Fleur, he would learn to be a bit nicer when it came to issues like this. However, the reason why I quoted the scene above was as a pretext for the crucial scene that is oft-quoted by the good ship. I'll pick it up right where I left off?as I've said before, I don't intend for any hocus-pocus mumbo jumbo. The text says what it says, but a contrapuntal reading the "hidden foundation" of the text reveals why there is a dissenting minority who is not accepting R/H- without-trouble. Whole quote follows (apologies for the length, but it's necessary to look at the scene *in context*), then in-depth analysis. ****************** "This is mad," said Ron. "We're the only ones left who haven't got anyone - well, except Neville. Hey - guess who he asked? Hermione!" "What?" said Harry, completely distracted by this startling news. "Yeah, I know!" said Ron, some of the color coming back into his face as he started to laugh. "He told me after Potions! Said she's always been really nice, helping him out with work and stuff- but she told him she was already going with someone. Ha! As if! She just didn't want to go with Neville ... I mean, who would?" "Don't!" said Ginny, annoyed. "Don't laugh -" Just then Hermione climbed in through the portrait hole. "Why weren't you two at dinner?" she said, coming over to join them. "Because - oh shut up laughing, you two - because they've both just been turned down by girls they asked to the ball!" said Ginny. That shut Harry and Ron up. "Thanks a bunch, Ginny," said Ron sourly. "All the good-looking ones taken, Ron?" said Hermione loftily. "Eloise Midgen starting to look quite pretty now, is she? Well, I'm sure you'll find someone somewhere who'll have you." But Ron was staring at Hermione as though suddenly seeing her in a whole new light. "Hermione, Neville's right - you are a girl. . . ." "Oh well spotted," she said acidly. "Well - you can come with one of us!" "No, I can't," snapped Hermione. "Oh come on," he said impatiently, "we need partners, we're going to look really stupid if we haven't got any, everyone else has . . ." "I can't come with you," said Hermione, now blushing, "because I'm already going with someone." "No, you're not!" said Ron. "You just said that to get rid of Neville!" "Oh did I?" said Hermione, and her eyes flashed dangerously. "Just because it's taken you three years to notice, Ron, doesn't mean no one else has spotted I'm a girl!" Ron stared at her. Then he grinned again."Okay, okay, we know you're a girl," he said. "That do? Will you come now?" "I've already told you!" Hermione said very angrily. "I'm going with someone else!" And she stormed off toward the girls' dormitories again. "She's lying," said Ron flatly, watching her go. "She's not," said Ginny quietly. "Who is it then?" said Ron sharply. "I'm not telling you, it's her business," said Ginny. "Right," said Ron, who looked extremely put out, "this is getting stupid. Ginny, you can go with Harry, and I'll just -" "I can't," said Ginny, and she went scarlet too. "I'm going with - with Neville. He asked me when Hermione said no, and I thought. . . well. . . I'm not going to be able to go otherwise, I'm not in fourth year." She looked extremely miserable. "I think I'll go and have dinner," she said, and she got up and walked off to the portrait hole, her head bowed. Ron goggled at Harry. "What's got into them?" he demanded. (GoF, UK paper, p. 348-349) ************************ *rubs hands together* This is how we H/Hers read this scene. Ron's "Hey - guess who he asked? Hermione!" and "She told him she was already going with someone. Ha! As if! She just didn't want to go with Neville ... I mean, who would?" doesn't sound very nice to me. First of all, Neville has been nothing but kind towards Ron. I thought they were friends of a sort. But here Ron is admitting that he really thinks Neville is a loser. Ginny (whom I love whenever we glimpse her in GoF) expresses my own annoyance when she admonishes him not to laugh. As a teacher of fourteen year olds, the assertion that Ron is a typical fourteen year old boy annoys me so much that it makes my teeth hurt. Ron is one *kind* of fourteen year old boy. He is not representative of the entire species. In 2.5 years of fandom, I've heard that argument from all sides and it simply isn't true. I don't make allowances for my students because "after all, they're only fourteen." I don't care if one is fourteen or forty-four, that gives them no right to act out without apology or regret. Fans are always quick to defend Ron but what about Hermione's feelings here? Hermione rightly calls Ron out on this. She is completely unsympathetic about his plight, and who can blame her? "All the good-looking ones taken, Ron?" said Hermione loftily. "Eloise Midgen starting to look quite pretty now, is she? Well, I'm sure you'll find someone somewhere who'll have you." I emphatically do not think this implies that Hermione wants Ron to ask her. We have additional knowledge to contextualize her thoughts in this scene. We know that Krum, one of the most sought-after guys at school that year because of his celebrity, has already asked her to the ball. We know that Hermione is sympathetic to the plight of the underdog?Neville, house-elves, Eloise?and is used to being teased and shunned herself. So I don't think her remarks are a come-on. I think she's expressing how sweet karma really is Hermione has treated people well and come out of the Yule Ball scramble like a champ, while Ron, who thinks that people like Eloise and Neville are beneath him, is the dateless one after all. Let's look at Ron's behavior now. First, he laughs at the notion that Hermione's got a date... and suggests she's lying. ("No, you're not!" said Ron. "You just said that to get rid of Neville!") Towards the end of the scene, he implies that she is being less than truthful again. ("As if! She just didn't want to go with Neville... I mean, who would?") *Totally* uncalled for first, he implies that Harry was keeping his illegal Triwizard entry from him, and now he seems to think Hermione is lying about really having a date I mean, why in the world does the boy think his two best friends would be anything other than truthful towards him? Linda puts this very well. "This is taken to a new level before the ball when Ron thought that Hermione lied to Neville because no one would want to go with him the ball. Ron couldn't bring himself to believe that anyone else had even considered asking Hermione. Why is that? Because she didn't even rank high enough on the good looks scale for him." So much for Ron, the Affable Average Teenage Guy. And a lot of this snark is at Neville's expense, behind his back. What did Neville ever do to him? Is his mere existence enough to annoy Ron? Quite ironic, considering the fact that his own sister has just agreed to go with the poor boy! Okay, this is the part that my shipmates and I just adore. Brace yourselves. When Ron utters the famous "Hermione, Neville's right--you are a girl..." line... in which he cites NEVILLE as an authority the same character that Ron disparages just a few paragraphs up and throughout the scene Hermione doesn't blush or flinch at all! If she does like Ron, I find it very strange that she doesn't quail under Ron's very appraising look, followed by a grin. Don't you? Then... look at this sequence: ****************** "Hermione, Neville's right--you are a girl." "Oh, well spotted," she said acidly. "Well, you can come with one of us." "No, I can't," snapped Hermione. ****************** Ha! She's *still* got an attitude with him here. It's all very "Ron, you are an idiot" IMO. I just don't get any "I like you" vibes on her part. (We have seen Hermione in "like" mode before with Lockhart refer to CoS. Yes, I know that was merely a crush and Ron is True Love, but still. *grin*) But then... notice the shift after Ron's next statement. "Oh, come on," he said impatiently, "we need partners, we're going to look really stupid if we haven't got any, everyone else has..." "I can't come with you," said Hermione, *now blushing*... Uh-oh. Okay. Why does she only blush then and not along with the "Well spotted" comment? And Ron's very thorough appraisal? Why the 180 degree turnaround? Has the H/H reading faltered? Has the HMS Pumpkin Pie ship sprung a leak? *evil grin* Well, no. Let's look at that statement again. "Oh come on," he said impatiently, "*we* need partners, *we're* going to look really stupid if *we* haven't got any, everyone else has . . ." Oh, this is *too* rich. When Ron says, "Well, you can come with one of us," Hermione's cross for an obvious reason Ron's just insulted her! But when Ron pleads (impatiently, might I add), he re-emphasizes the "we" *three times* You see, my shipmates and I speculate that it occurs to Hermione that Harry is included in those "we" statements. Because Ron says we, Harry is implied as well. And after all, Harry is Hermione's focus for large portions of the first four books that cannot be ignored and Harry is the one who *needs* a partner for the ball. Ron, being a fourth year, *can go alone*. But Harry can't he is required to find a partner. I am certain that Hermione is aware of this. And she *blushes*. Squee! Gotta love it. Another thing I noticed as I read this time around, when asked to do the R/H in GoF essay, is something that I'd never noticed before. In this whole exchange, from the time that Hermione descends upon the three (Ron, Harry, and Ginny) there is no H/H interaction *at all*. It's a R/H conversation that Harry happens to witness. Harry doesn't interject and Hermione doesn't ask him a single thing. About his rejection, about who he might be taking to the ball, about *anything*. While R/Hr-ers tend to take this sort of thing as total lack of interest in anything Hermione does-feels-says-or-thinks on Harry's part, I see it as JKR perhaps trying to keep things under the radar. For a full two pages we have no interiority of Harry's which is strange, as we usually have a *lot* Harry's interior thought, as he is the focalizer. Not until the man of action decides that enough is enough and corrals Lavender and Parvati to find a solution to his problem. Well. Why not have Ron and Hermione fade into the background, while Harry licks his emotional wounds over being rejected by Cho? Why not have Harry notice Ginny, who's sitting right there what she looks like, what he thinks she might be thinking? Perhaps she is not telling us what Harry's thinking because she doesn't want us to know yet because perhaps even Harry doesn't know himself. All we know is that Harry is "completely distracted" by the "startling news" that Neville has asked Hermione to the ball. A few lines up, he's moping over Cho's rejection. Then he's distracted by Ron's startling news about Hermione and we have *no more interiority from him for over two pages*. (Sidenote that's slightly snarky: at the beginning of this scene, Ginny says "they've both just been turned down by girls they asked to the ball!" she makes it clear that both of the boys asked girls to the ball, but it is Ron whose case Hermione jumps all over. For a girl who supposedly has such motherly interest where Harry's concerned, she does not address him at all. She doesn't say a word to Harry during the entire scene either and usually Harry and Hermione are pretty well tuned into one another, as every other canon brief posted before me has shown. These are the things that make us H/Hers go "hmm " I know, I know. It's probably nothing. But I'm just sayin'.) Okay, on to the "passionate" Yule Ball scenes. THE YULE BRAWL Over at FictionAlley, on the Trio boards, my shipmate Libbie analyzed all the nice proto-H/H moments from GoF in detail... and found 69 such places in the text of the fourth book. Some of them are in his chapter, and they make me grin. I just love the way Harry's jaw drops! I love how he notices Hermione throughout dinner, and how she catches Harry's eye after teaching Krum how to say her name correctly. And when Ron and Hermione finally do interact, I think they make my case for me. (All quotes during the ball itself can be found on pp. 366-368, UK trade paper edition.) ******************** Hermione came over and sat down in Parvati's empty chair. She was a bit pink in the face from dancing. "Hi," said Harry. Ron didn't say anything. "It's hot, isn't it?" said Hermione, fanning herself with her hand. "Viktor's just gone to get some drinks." Ron gave her a withering look. "Viktor?" he said. "Hasn't he asked you to call him Vicky yet?" Hermione looked at him in surprise. "What's up with you?" she said. "If you don't know," said Ron scathingly, "I'm not going to tell you." Hermione stared at him, then at Harry, who shrugged. ********************* ********************* I mean, really. All attraction aside, Hermione is supposed to be his best friend. She's obviously having a great time, and so Ron's remark stops her in her tracks. She has no idea of what's going on, and neither does stupid-and-clueless Harry. ********************* "Ron, what - ?" "He's from Durmstrang!" spat Ron. "He's competing against Harry! Against Hogwarts! You - you're -" Ron was obviously casting around for words strong enough to describe Hermione's crime, "fraternizing with the enemy, that's what you're doing!" Hermione's mouth fell open. "Don't be so stupid!" she said after a moment. "The enemy! Honestly - who was the one who was all excited when they saw him arrive? Who was the one who wanted his autograph? Who's got a model of him up in their dormitory?" Ron chose to ignore this. "I s'pose he asked you to come with him while you were both in the library?" "Yes, he did," said Hermione, the pink patches on her cheeks glowing more brightly. "So what?" "What happened - trying to get him to join spew, were you?" "No, I wasn't! If you really want to know, he - he said he'd been coming up to the library every day to try and talk to me, but he hadn't been able to pluck up the courage!" Hermione said this very quickly, and blushed so deeply that she was the same color as Parvati's robes. ******************** ******************** Oh, so Hermione only blushes because she likes Ron? Seems to me she's blushing about Krum's interest in *her*, bookworm Hermione who no one at Hogwarts sees as anything other than a brain. I'm not saying that Ron doesn't like Hermione?he so obviously does?but I think her thoughts are very much elsewhere. Notice she doesn't blush until Viktor is mentioned. I keep saying that it's not because she likes him that she is blushing being the singular subject of intense male attention does make you blush. It doesn't mean you are head over heels with the guy in question. Ask Anne Shirley when it comes to Roy Gardiner. Ask Jo March when it comes to Laurie. Male attention is very flattering and it's femininity-affirming something that Hermione really needs. Viktor, despite his surliness and introspective nature, is a guy that a lot of girls want. I don't think people can relate to Hermione in this context unless they've been there it is a total triumph when you are the girl no one wants and then suddenly a guy from the A-list recognizes your inner worth and digs you. Hermione's not so much embarrassed to admit this to Ron as she is embarrassed to admit it, period. I think she'd blush if she were telling Lavender or Dumbledore or her parents. ;-) The difference between Ron and Hermione? You might be thinking that it was totally wrong of Hermione to use Viktor like that. I don't see it as using, though he wanted to take her and she agreed. She was also very nice to him, but that's to be expected. This is Hermione we're referring to. More on Miss Granger and blushing-about-Viktor later. ****************** "Yeah, well - that's his story," said Ron nastily. "And what's that supposed to mean?" "Obvious, isn't it? He's Karkaroff's student, isn't he? He knows who you hang around with. . . . He's just trying to get closer to Harry - get inside information on him - or get near enough to jinx him -" Hermione looked as though Ron had slapped her. When she spoke, her voice quivered. ****************** ***************** *raises hand in obnoxious Hermione-fashion* Ooh, I know exactly why she did that! Ron's just insulted her on two levels, hasn't he? Let's take a closer look. Harry has been a great deal of Hermione's *raison d'etre* for four long years... and yes, Ron's too. Remember in PoA, during the Shrieking Shack incident with Remus, Sirius, and Peter (as well as Snape)? Their friendship went to a whole different level at the end of that book, didn't it? When they realized they would both die for Harry? Just like Ron, she's sacrificed a lot for his sake. For Ron to say that she'd jeopardize her friendship with Harry and even his chances to win in such a haphazard fashion is positively insulting. Even worse is Ron's casting aspersions on Krum's motive for dating her in the first place! Of course Krum didn't notice that she was a kind person and beautiful inside and not a troll on the outside, either. The only valuable thing about Hermione Granger is her friendship with Harry Potter, of course that's all Krum sees. Of course. Again, yes I know that Ron likes Hermione. However, I don't see many reasons why any of this would cause Hermione to develop a sudden romantic attachment to Ron. Quite the contrary, actually. Only look at how he's treating her. This sort of blatant and Neanderthal disregard might turn some women on. I posit that it does very little for Hermione. We see exactly how insulted Hermione really is in her response. Does she blush at Ron's accusations. No. *She looks as if Ron had slapped her.* So is she secretly in love with him? Or even in like? Or even on the same page as those who foresee R/H romance upcoming in OotP? Riiiiiiight. ************ "For your information, he hasn't asked me one single thing about Harry, not one -" Ron changed tack at the speed of light. "Then he's hoping you'll help him find out what his egg means! I suppose you've been putting your heads together during those cozy little library sessions -" "I'd never help him work out that egg!" said Hermione, looking outraged. "Never. How could you say something like that - I want Harry to win the tournament. Harry knows that, don't you, Harry?" "You've got a funny way of showing it," sneered Ron. ************ ************ Hypocritical much, Ron? Who's been more faithful to Harry in GoF, Ron or Hermione? Just to show that I don't spare Harry my criticism, Harry should have spoken up a moment sooner, instead of letting Ron respond. Hermione is constantly putting herself out there for Harry's sake, and it isn't reciprocated much. Yes, I know he's going through a lot, but I think his deal in GoF Hermioneward is that he just takes her for granted. For after all, hasn't she always been there for him? And won't she always? IMO, Harry needs to be soundly bapped. How rude. How unappreciative. And they say that Ron is the only one who's allowed to be a 14-year old boy. ;-) ************** "This whole tournament's supposed to be about getting to know foreign wizards and making friends with them!" said Hermione hotly. "No it isn't!" shouted Ron. "It's about winning!" People were starting to stare at them. "Ron," said Harry quietly, "I haven't got a problem with Hermione coming with Krum -" But Ron ignored Harry too. ************** ************** All right, Casanova! Ron really needs to straighten his priorities even if he's not aware that he likes Hermione yet, he could have at least been civil to her as she is first and foremost his friend. Instead he is letting his temper get the better of him yet again. ************** "Why don't you go and find Vicky, he'll be wondering where you are," said Ron. "Don't call him Vicky!" Hermione jumped to her feet and stormed off across the dance floor, disappearing into the crowd. Ron watched her go with a mixture of anger and satisfaction on his face. "Are you going to ask me to dance at all?" Padma asked him. "No," said Ron, still glaring after Hermione. "Fine," snapped Padma, and she got up and went to join Parvati and the Beauxbatons boy, who conjured up one of his friends to join them so fast that Harry could have sworn he had zoomed him there by a Summoning Charm. ************** ************** Not only is Ron extremely impolite and rude to Hermione, now Padma is subject to his vitriol as well. Eloise Neville and now Padma? I don't care if they're just minor characters, Ron just isn't treating them very kindly. Can you imagine Hermione falling for a guy who thumbs his nose at others whenever he's in a bad mood? If so, then you obviously detect a cruel streak in her character that I do not. Having fun is one thing. Pure meanness is quite another. And if I felt sorry for Ron before mid-GoF (which I did), I lost a lot of my empathy for him after reading this book. Having problems in your own life is not an excuse to be nasty to others. I have no idea how even the most rabid Ron fan can defend the mean things he says before, during, and after the Yule Ball. They are totally indefensible IMO. Sure, Hermione is willing to let bygones be bygones post-Yule Ball, just as Harry forgave him after the Goblet of Fire spat, but really I don't think these are just isolated incidents we'll never see in canon again. I really am a bit nervous about what will happen to the Trio's friendship in the future. I think that it will endure, but I don't think the time of testing is over. I think it's just begun. It literally broke my heart to read Ron's characterization in GoF. Pre-PoA, I adored Ron to pieces and liked him even better than Hermione. He was one of my favorites. In PoA, Ron and Hermione were about even before reading GoF, I was more understanding of both PoVs in the Crookshanks incident. But after GoF, when I re-read PoA, I saw this building continuum of occasional not-so-niceness in Ron's behavior. And when I came into the fandom, and said I was bothered by this pattern I was starting to observe in Ron, I got jumped all over! Needless to say, the more I got jumped on, the more my heart hardened towards Ron's character. I grow very wary whenever I witness someone in RL, in canon, or in fandom get overly defensive. As I tell my students, the unusually defensive usually are hiding something, methinks. If the accusations are ridiculous, then why get so defensive? I mean, if one accused Hermione of being a tart, or Harry of being a coward, or Sirius or Dumbledore of being a double-agent for Voldemort, or Hagrid of eventually doing something that would hurt Harry, I wouldn't get angry at all and those are my favorite characters in the novels! I would ignore the argument precisely because I'd think that canon rendered it invalid. All of these arguments have been made at one point or another in this fandom. I haven't blinked, or jumped down the person's throat who said them. I confess to being mystified about the level of defensiveness, when the evidence speaks for itself. All of the quotes I've highlighted above point to Ron having an occasional mean streak when he's angry. I did not say this made him a horrible person or one who is unworthy of friendship with Harry and Hermione. I do not feel that way. I just really think that in GoF, he "showed out" a bit more than I liked, especially given the contexts. H/H shippers have repeatedly conceded both Harry *and* Hermione's personality flaws. Rarely do we receive reciprocation on Ron's part. I know personally of a few R/H shippers have conceded some of our points about Ron's character, but the reason why many of the more astute H/Hers refuse to debate ship anymore is because we are often confronted with this extreme irrationality when it comes to Ron. And what is a debate, if it does not have reason as its basis? Okay, here comes the lovely sequence that I always get tossed into my face whenever I ask for proof that Hermione likes Ron: ****************** The Fat Lady and her friend Vi were snoozing in the picture over the portrait hole. Harry had to yell "Fairy lights!" before he woke them up, and when he did, they were extremely irritated. He climbed into the common room and found Ron and Hermione having a blazing row. Standing ten feet apart, they were bellowing at each other, each scarlet in the face. "Well, if you don't like it, you know what the solution is, don't you?" yelled Hermione; her hair was coming down out of its elegant bun now, and her face was screwed up in anger. "Oh yeah?" Ron yelled back. "What's that?" "Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not as a last resort!" Ron mouthed soundlessly like a goldfish out of water as Hermione turned on her heel and stormed up the girls' staircase to bed. Ron turned to look at Harry. "Well," he sputtered, looking thunderstruck, "well - that just proves - completely missed the point -" Harry didn't say anything. He liked being back on speaking terms with Ron too much to speak his mind right now - but he somehow thought that Hermione had gotten the point much better than Ron had. **************** **************** In my humble opinion, Penny explains away this bit of the chapter far better than anyone else in the entire fandom. H/Hers, after *putting this scene in its context*, just do not think that Hermione's shout of "not as a last resort" is a deliberate come-on. Here's why. First of all, we wonder why JKR had Harry walk in *towards the end of this debate*. We just don't understand the point of it, if JKR was meaning to be transparent. As I have proven earlier, our wonderful author has no problem with having Harry witness entire Ron-and- Hermione scenes so what's up now? "Well, if you don't like it, you know what the solution is, don't you?" What specifically is "it", Hermione? Why did JKR put that pronoun in your mouth? What can't we know? We simply don't know what "it" is, because we walked in along with Harry at the end of the conversation. So we, like Harry, end up making a lot of assumptions. "He somehow thought that Hermione had gotten the point much better than Ron had. What point, Harry? Going back to Hermione's famous statement: "Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not as a last resort!", we wonder if Hermione is really issuing a real invitation to Ron, after an honest read of the two chapters that led up to her frustrated remark. She's seen what qualities Ron values in girls. She's seen how he treated his date that evening. She's been repeatedly insulted by him for no good reason at all. As Linda says: "Maybe she did want Ron to ask her out and not as a last resort. I don't know. But after the troll crack and the doubting that anyone else besides Neville would ask her out - I'd be damned pissed at him. I'd also be re-evaluating any attraction I felt towards him." Amen. Note also that her shout gives no indication that she'd say "yes" to him if he did ask. Judging from the two chapters that just passed--I'd say not. All we know from this scene is that Ron does like Hermione--his gaping after her once she drops this bomb is a case in point. However, we knew that before. But as my analysis shows, the fundamental question of "does Hermione like Ron as more than a friend?", a question that was posed to JKR during a spring 2001 interview, has not been answered satisfactorily in the #1 instance of the text cited to prove the case. More about this in my next post. --Ebony AKA AngieJ http://www.fictionalley.org http://angiej.livejournal.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise From selah_1977 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 02:43:21 2003 From: selah_1977 at yahoo.com (Ebony ) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 02:43:21 -0000 Subject: SHIP: That Darned Kiss--The Problem With Reading R/H in GoF Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50157 (Second half of my essay excerpts. I'd post more of it, but I just saw my previous post was over 30K, and now must accordingly hide from the Mod Squad and everyone on digest. --Eb, going back to lurkdom.) PADFOOT RETURNS?THE SECOND RITA SKEETER ARTICLE ********************* "I told you!" Ron hissed at Hermione as she stared down at the article. "I told you not to annoy Rita Skeeter! She's made you out to be some sort of- of scarlet woman!" Hermione stopped looking astonished and snorted with laughter. "Scarlet woman?" she repeated, shaking with suppressed giggles as she looked around at Ron. "It's what my mum calls them," Ron muttered, his ears going red. "If that's the best Rita can do, she's losing her touch," said Hermione, still giggling, as she threw Witch Weekly onto the empty chair beside her. "What a pile of old rubbish." She looked over at the Slytherins, who were all watching her and Harry closely across the room to see if they had been upset by the article. Hermione gave them a sarcastic smile and a wave, and she, Harry, and Ron started unpacking the ingredients they would need for their Wit-Sharpening Potion. (GoF p. 445 UK paper) ********************** Wow. I have to say this, as a tangential observation--one of the reasons why I just love Hermione for Harry is because she is definitely the only girl in canon who's strong enough to handle the press and the pressure that would result from being Harry's girl. And even if she isn't Harry's girl, even if she starts dating Ron, I think she's going to have to suffer anyway because she's in that girl- who-is-closest-to-Harry role--what, we're supposed to think Voldemort is going to think that the Skeeter articles about Harry's "Mudblood girlfriend" are all lies? We have to remember that as of the end of GoF, the majority of the wizarding world does not know Harry and has only those articles to go by including the Death Eaters and their sympathizers. Even Molly Weasley herself (who should have known better!) treats the poor girl differently because of an article *by a woman who has slandered her own husband!* Tsk, tsk! And Hermione herself is a bit obtuse about clearing up rumors but I'm getting ahead of myself. Anyway, I love how Hermione deals with the rumors summarily but never outright denies them. She declares this Skeeter article to be "rubbish"?which it is, after all. In it, she's accused of two- timing Harry for Krum's sake. This is so antithetical to her character that it doesn't make her angry. She finds it funny. So she dismisses the article as completely ridiculous. Note that she *never* calls the first article "rubbish", though. Just "ignore it" is her only suggestion for Harry not vehement protest of the kind she showed at the Yule Ball, or the amusement she's expressing at this point. Hermione doesn't even seem incredulous when faced with that first article. She doesn't get angry as she did when Ron accused her of being disloyal to Harry at the Yule Ball. Instead after that first autumn article she just holds her head high and keeps right on hanging with Harry and her grace under pressure is something that he admires. ********************* "There's something funny, though," said Hermione ten minutes later, holding her pestle suspended over a bowl of scarab beetles. "How could Rita Skeeter have known . . . ?" "Known what?" said Ron quickly. "You haven't been mixing up Love Potions, have you?" "Don't be stupid," Hermione snapped, starting to pound up her beetles again. "No, it's just. . . how did she know Viktor asked me to visit him over the summer?" Hermione blushed scarlet as she said this and determinedly avoided Ron's eyes. "What?" said Ron, dropping his pestle with a loud clunk. "He asked me right after he'd pulled me out of the lake," Hermione muttered. "After he'd got rid of his shark's head. Madam Pomfrey gave us both blankets and then he sort of pulled me away from the judges so they wouldn't hear, and he said, if I wasn't doing anything over the summer, would I like to -" "And what did you say?" said Ron, who had picked up his pestle and was grinding it on the desk, a good six inches from his bowl, because he was looking at Hermione. "And he did say he'd never felt the same way about anyone else," Hermione went on, going so red now that Harry could almost feel the heat coming from her, "but how could Rita Skeeter have heard him? She wasn't there ... or was she? Maybe she has got an Invisibility Cloak; maybe she sneaked onto the grounds to watch the second task. ..." "And what did you say?" Ron repeated, pounding his pestle down so hard that it dented the desk. "Well, I was too busy seeing whether you and Harry were okay to-" "Fascinating though your social life undoubtedly is. Miss Granger," said an icy voice right behind them, and all three of them jumped, "I must ask you not to discuss it in my class. Ten points from Gryffindor." (GoF p. 445-446 UK paper) ********************** Is Hermione blushing because of some more-than-friendship feeling for Ron? Nope. Remember, she didn't blush under his intense scrutiny when it had nothing to do with Krum . Yet here again she's blushing hotly *but they're talking about Krum again*. Not only that and I know I'm going to get yelled at for this one Harry is once again sitting right there! It was he who was mentioned in the article not Ron. Hermione is embarrassed to talk about Krum and blushes - which could be that she doesn't want to admit it in front of Ron *or* Harry. And then Ron starts pounding the counter with his pestle half a foot from his beetles. She avoids his eyes because he's looking at her and crushing the desk with a pestle. If I were her, I'd avoid looking at someone in the eye who was acting like that too. Another reason why Hermione looks away is because she looks away because she knows that mentioning Krum leads to arguments with Ron. I bet she's trying to avoid a row this time. Like Harry, I think she likes being on speaking terms with Ron because Ron is her *friend*. THE THINGS HERMIONE DOES NOT DO Nothing else about the Harry Potter series makes me feel as if we're reading two different books more than this argument does. H/Hers have been told repeatedly by R/H shippers that the reason for everything from Hermione grabbing Harry in the Top Box at the Quidditch World Cup (94) to her constant talk about him to Viktor Krum (479-480), to That Kiss (636), is evidence of a comfort and an ease with Harry that she does not feel with Ron. In other words, Hermione is comfortable touching, kissing, and talking about Harry because she sees him as a brother, whereas the fact that she does not touch, kiss, or talk about Ron in the text quite as often is seen as tacit R/H subtextual evidence. Okay. I would totally buy that if I saw anywhere in canon that Hermione is uncomfortable talking to Ron or any other reason other than Viktor or avoiding an argument in general. She simply isn't. She is more than willing to engage with Ron if she thinks he is wrong. She is willing to give as good as she gets. Other than the two reasons listed above, she does not back down from Ron. She isn't uncomfortable hugging Ron. She hugs him in PoA and in GoF. Both times it is Ron who is uncomfortable, not her. Where's the physical awkwardness on her part? On the other hand, I see evidence in canon that Hermione is very conscious of what Harry thinks. Other than the Firebolt incident, Harry's opinion of Hermione appears to be very important to her and is generally very high. In PoA, he stops a tirade of hers with a single statement, checks on her when she is swamped with work (whereas Ron could care less), and encourages her to have fun. In GoF, he stops her from saying anything about Hagrid with a look. And we still don't know what Hermione's boggart is, do we? We have to take her word for it. Is it really failing every subject or is it finding Harry dead? One wonders why Lupin didn't let her attack the boggart during the classroom lesson. That's significant. Back to The Things Hermione Does Not Do. I think this is definitely related to The Dates and Fun Times that Ron and Hermione Have That We Do Not See, The Other Kiss at the End of GoF, and other such fanon myths. That is not even subtext. It isn't contrapuntal reading. It is a completely fallacious argument. If I can talk about what happens Behind the Scenes in canon to support a "canonical" ship, then I can make any of my favorite ships canon. I happen to like Draco/Ginny, for instance and Draco/Hermione and Remus/Sirius in spots. Can't I talk about What Remus and Sirius Obviously Do When We Don't See Them, or The D/G Meeting in the Astronomy Tower That Got Edited Out of GoF? R/Hers think that when Ron and Hermione are together, they have fun that isn't very Harry-related. Well. We've seen several instances throughout the text of Ron/Hermione together without Harry. We've caught glimpses of them, especially in PoA and GoF. In PoA (again, forgive me for dipping back a book), there's Ron and Hermione at Honeydukes, together but when Harry comes over, they don't act weird or awkward. They yell for him to come over, obviously very happy to see him. They're all glad to be together after a long summer that's the impression I get from that scene. Very balanced friends indeed IMO. (Oh, how I adore PoA from cover to cover!) And then when we see Ron and Hermione together in Honeydukes, they're having yet another conversation about Harry! It's the same at the Quidditch World Cup, when Harry gets to the Burrow. Hermione isn't with Ron; she's with Molly and Ginny. Of course she sits with Ron during all those Quidditch games and Triwizard Tournament matches?there is absolutely nothing in canon to indicate that she ever is anything other than totally Harry-focused during his games and the Tournament. So the things that Hermione does not do are evidently eclipsed by the things she does do. She is great friends with Ron, but it is just that?friendship. I do think she's very aware of how Ron feels about her, and isn't sure how to deal with it. I think throughout GoF she is sorting out her feelings for both of the boys but by the end, as JKR has alluded in interviews, she's got a better handle on it all than Ron does. Well, then. If Hermione *doesn't* like Ron in that way--gulp--then is she interested in anyone at all? Although only the last three books of canon will tell the tale, I think we may be beginning to see somewhat of an answer towards the end of GoF. I'll conclude with something I've only thought of in the past few months, after 2.5 years in the debate. THAT DARNED KISS "Bye, Harry!" said Hermione, and she did something she had never done before, and kissed him on the cheek. (GoF, UK paper ed., p. 636) I know. Before you say anything--let me issue my general disclaimer. THIS H/H SHIPPER HAS ALWAYS ARGUED THAT THE KISS IS PLATONIC. However, looking at the kiss once again helps me prove the case of why there is no R/H in GoF only Ron------->Hermione. So I will not tell you why Hermione kissed Harry, or whether that will be significant in future books. I cannot get into Hermione's (or JKR's) head. I will not presume to do so now. I can only speculate on why (as far as we know) she does not kiss Ron. First, she doesn't kiss Ron not necessarily because she feels anything for him and it would be awkward but because *she knows how he feels about her*. If she knows Ron likes her, and does not feel the same, then to kiss him would be to lead him on. It would be mean and unfair. Second, her kissing Harry had nothing to do with making Ron jealous. That reading of canon, along with Hermione Went To The Ball With Krum To Make Ron Jealous, assumes a more Roncentric Hermione worldview than I am willing to concede before I see new canon. This Hermione fan doubts if Hermione was thinking "gee, let's make Ron ever madder-- let's go to the ball with Krum and look fab!" or "gee, let's make Ron jealous by kissing Harry it's about time Ron noticed me." As I have shown above, I don't think theViktor thing was as much about Ron as it was about *Hermione*--Hermione and the way she views herself as an emerging young woman. Third, I think she kisses Harry and not Ron because Harry needed that kiss far more than Ron does. He's just been through quite the ordeal. He is about to go out into the Muggle world, and the place he is going will be totally unsupportive about what he's going through. The Dursleys will not understand what he is going through and neither does anyone else in the world, really. That kiss is a gesture that speaks far less of superficial "like" than it does of a deep and abiding friendship. It was also something that only Hermione has ever does *in this context*. JKR is the one who makes it significant by flagging it in the text ("And she did something she'd never done before "). Now, Harry doesn't have any memory of his parents or any other relatives pecking his cheek like that, and there was no one else in his life who ever would kiss him so casually. Sure, the Chasers have done it in great moments of excitement, but not in that context. Again, if JKR hadn't added that phrase--"and she did something she'd never done before"--I would have had no reason to revise my reading. I mean, in a chapter entitled "The Beginning"--a chapter that seems as if it's going to be the turning point of the series? Also, as I can't divorce this incident from its context, I find it significant that Hermione does this with all those people around. Yes, I know she doesn't care who's around when she shows how much she loves Harry as a friend (cough), but really after those Daily Prophet articles and the rumors, after receiving Bubotuber pus and threats via owl, after even Ron's own jolly mother treated her unfairly because of those articles she kisses him anyway. Right. Nice way to stop rumors, Hermione. Why not a pat on the back, or even a friendly hug? Why does JKR herself call attention to it? And she did something she'd never done before. Why doesn't Hermione kiss Ron in the text? I have to share what JKR once said about Hermione in an interview as I conclude. "Harry needs her badly." Indeed he does. Ron may like Hermione right now. Ron may grow to want Hermione. But does Ron really need Hermione? What do his actions in the most recent canon installment say? What do his actions throughout canon tell us? I think Ron's actions pretty much speak for themselves. The answer to the question "Does Hermione like Ron as more than a friend?" is in *Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire*, according to a spring 2001 chat with the author on AOL. The very fact that this question had to be asked casts doubts on whether or not canon proves that Hermione likes Ron. I think I've shown that there are numerous holes in the Hermione------> Ron proof. So, Madam Rowling, to paraphrase your answer to a question from another interview, do I really think that Harry and Hermione are suited? My reply is an emphatic and enthusiastic "yes!". --Ebony AKA AngieJ From susannahlm at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 02:45:59 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (susannahlm ) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 02:45:59 -0000 Subject: The REAL Reason Snape's Hair Is Greasy! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50158 Cassie wrote: >Ok.. >Correct me if I'm wrong, but so far we have: >1. His anti-social nature makes him neglect his appearance sos he >can avoid relationships. >2. He uses some kind of hair-tonic-potion thing to keep his mind >from being read. >3. He's really dead sexy, but purposefully makes himself look >unattractive so he won't be tackled by randy teenage girls who >should be doing their school work. >4. He just doesn't care. As a variant of 4, add 5. Because he's in mourning. (Derannimer glances over her shoulder to make sure her Captain isn't around, then continues.) Look, I don't know what you think of Lollipops, but one of the reasons it's always struck me as plausible is Snape's hair. Or, rather, the hair (it's not just greay, it's shoulder-length. Not long, *shoulder-length;* poorly kept), the black, the reflexive snapping. I don't know if it was Elkins or Tabouli, but I read a post somewhere describing Snape as a man on auto-pilot, operating on default mode, not paying much attention to daily life because he just doesn't care any more. He does seem to me like someone living in emotional reaction. And, I mean, it doesn't have to be reaction to Lily's untimely death, if you don't like that sort of thing. It could be reaction to his time as a DE, or as a spy, or because he's SOULSUCKED SNAPE. Whatever. So maybe I should revise that. 5. He just doesn't care, and why would he, after [insert trauma of choice]? Derannimer (who wonders how he'd clean up, and suspects: not too badly) From baringer2k at aol.com Mon Jan 20 02:18:06 2003 From: baringer2k at aol.com (baringer2k at aol.com) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 21:18:06 EST Subject: A Possible Progression of the Harry Potter series Message-ID: <1da.47351a.2b5cb65e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50159 I would like to perhaps introduce a theory that may not be original, but as yet I have not seen anyone post something like this. Granted, I am a new subscriber, so I acknowledge that this may have already been presented (in which case I ask the moderators to please delete this). After having read the four books back to back?having discovered them only a week or so ago?I imagined myself in J.K. Rowling's shoes. How would I continue from here if I was the writer? This will, of course, relate to several theories that are readily available on the 'net. Cornelius Fudge made a veiled threat to Dumbledore when he informed him of his intention to discuss the running of Hogwards (end of HP&TGOF). I imagine that there will be a severe disruption of Hogwarts| not only the administration of it, but its existence as an institution of learning altogether. With the growing tendency of the books to progress from light-hearted fantasy to dark tormenting horror, I see an abrupt change perhaps happening. This might not occur immediately, but then is life in general is not predictable. So, given that truth, I predict the unpredictable! Each of the seven books is one year at Hogwart's, right? So what if those years at Hogwart's don't necessarily entail education? What if those years at Hogwart's entail strife and battle? Harry, Hermione, Ron and the others are growing up, and the lives they live in this series of books easily transcends the stereotypical life of fictional characters. Life happens. That, I believe, is one of the greatest reasons I like Rowling's books: they are unpredictable, and extremely well-woven. As stated above, I am a new member, so I hope you'll forgive any repetition or ignorance. I am unimaginably grateful that this discussion group exists, and thank the moderators and members for their efforts! Thanks!! Marcus Mebes, Shreveport Louisiana From starropal at hotmail.com Mon Jan 20 02:25:31 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 20:25:31 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldie was not shocked Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50160 Melody said: >He still had his wits about him after he found out Harry could resist >the imperius curse. He says after the event, (GoF Ch 34) "Harry >obedience is a virtue I need to teach you before you die..." and then >fires him with Crucio. He did say something witty before he fired >again. I never said he _didn't_ have his wits about. If he didn't he'd be flying the handle and throwing around curses at random. I'm saying he is extremely angry, a little surprised, but not raving. He's smart, patient, and experienced enough to be quiet and threatening. When he says "obedience is a virtue..." he's being threatening not witty. Its not until he has Harry hiding behind the gravestone that he is again amused. That's when he returns to being witty and playing with his food. I'm saying for that one moment he was really, erm, put out. Melody: >From their viewpoint, Voldie was winning *until* Harry showed signs of >strength and threw off the imperius. It was then, they got afraid. Not of >what Voldie will do to *Harry*, but of what Harry could do to *Voldemort*. >They don't know what Harry capable of, but after that moment, they knew he >is in fact special. After they'd seen Voldemort touch him (page 653), performed the Crucio (page 657), had the whole 'ancient mother's sacrifice magic' thing explained to them, and probably been able to see the cut in Harry's robes and arm. I don't see them really being afraid of Harry. Let's see if I can describe what I meant better. Ever been in a room with someone who was really angry, so angry you can feel it? Even if its not directed at you, its VERY uncomfortable. The sheer tension, following my theory, at that moment when LV is all quiet must have been great. Its not until LV says "we're not playing hide and seek" that they start laughing again. The tension is gone now, its okay to be laughing underlings again. Star Opal who references the US paperback and has a hard time explaining things sometimes -_- _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From starropal at hotmail.com Mon Jan 20 03:02:39 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 21:02:39 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fleur DADA teacher (used to be Fleur/Snape's Hair) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50161 Elysia said: >Fleur as a teacher? I don't think so, what are her qualifications >apart from part magical creature! ... >Mrs. Figg would be a good choice seeing Dumbledore >is "rounding" her up, otherwise hail to the new character! Fleur could be an assistant. But seeing how she is just out of school and so young I don't think she'll be taking on a teaching position alone. As to Mrs.. Figg, I think Dumbledore has something in mind for 'the old crowd'. Perhaps as a special task force, like aurors, only they work under DD's orders. Star Opal who has no idea who WILL be the DADA teacher _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From Malady579 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 20 04:53:34 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody ) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 04:53:34 -0000 Subject: Voldie was not shocked In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50162 Star Opal wrote: >I never said he _didn't_ have his wits about. If he didn't he'd be >flying the handle and throwing around curses at random. I'm saying he >is extremely angry, a little surprised, but not raving. He's smart, >patient, and experienced enough to be quiet and threatening. When he >says "obedience is a virtue..." he's being threatening not witty. Ok I see where I misunderstood you. I am sorry. But I still do not see how Voldemort's reaction shows how he did not know Harry could throw off the imperius curse. Before Voldemort used the imperius curse, he taunted Harry "softly" and asked him if he wanted more pain. Then after Harry threw off the imperius, Voldemort asked "quietly" if Harry wanted more pain before he dies. Then after Harry ran behind the gravestone, Voldemort taunted him so more in a "soft, cold voice." I see no change there. Now later on when prior incantatem happens, Voldemort is "shrieking" and "shouting". He is portrayed as being in shock then but not before. I guess, from my viewpoint, *if* Voldemort did not expect Harry to shake the imperius, Voldie would have reacted the way he did in prior incantatem. I mean, if Voldemort was truly planning on his imperius to work, then it seems Harry's ability to throw it would be a shock and a kink in Voldie's plans. It did not even phase him. Star Opal again: >Let's see if I can describe what I meant better. Ever been in a room >with someone who was really angry, so angry you can feel it? Even if >its not directed at you, its VERY uncomfortable. The sheer tension, >following my theory, at that moment when LV is all quiet must have >been great. Its not until LV says "we're not playing hide and seek" >that they start laughing again. The tension is gone now, its okay to >be laughing underlings again. Ok, I agree there is tension, but I see different reasons for it. The tension is not from the radiating anger from Voldemort. He had that already and was building it from the beginning. The tension is from the deadeaters themselves. They were nervous. They did not know what Voldemort had planned that evening. They were not sure what he was thinking about Harry. All they know is that Voldemort was clever enough to capture the boy. The deadeaters, after Harry threw the imperius, are wondering three things. 1) Whether Voldemort fears Harry now. 2) Whether this development ruins Voldemort's plans for the evening. Or rather, if Voldemort still has the upper hand. 3) Whether Harry is in fact strong enough to defeat Voldemort. After all, he has a broken leg, slashed arm, crucio'ed twice, and still he has enough mental strength to throw Voldie's curse off. That is very rare. After Harry hid behind the tombstone, all those questions are answered. 1) Voldemort retains his taunting and soft, quiet voice. 2) Voldemort still has control of the situation. He has the upper hand. 3) Harry himself is running from Voldemort. He does not appeal strong enough to take Voldemort on. He once again looks like a 14-year-old boy. So they relax again and laugh. Maybe this run of lines can be interpreted in two ways, but I just cannot see how the shock of imperius would not be as great as the shock of prior incantatem. Voldemort must not happen upon many that can shake it let alone the same kid that stripped him from his body. Why wouldn't Voldemort slightly fear Harry? Melody From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Mon Jan 20 07:18:22 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 02:18:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Not Really SHIP: Ron and Harry Are Inconsiderate Idiots (Re: Ebony's Essay) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030120071822.3069.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50164 I am crazy to be doing this. Completely and utterly crazy. But I read Ebony's essay, and couldn't resist. Now, if anyone's interested, the debate on Deathmarch recently has been scintillating, if at times rather nasty. From an R/Hr perspective, Angua's series on why Hermione isn't the right girl for Harry left me with my jaw dropped. They are much better ship debaters than I am over there, having memorized different passages and chapters than me, and I feel no need to duplicate that discussion. You see, I know "The Yule Ball" much less than Ebony, I'm sure. I love that chapter, but my shipping rabidity does not extend to reading it closely, except for that exchange between Snape and Karkaroff. On the other hand, I can almost rattle off "The Pensieve," "Padfoot Returns," "The Madness of Mr. Crouch," and "Veritaserum." But when I read this, I couldn't help myself: Linda McCabe wrote: "And females, especially bookish females can feel very insecure about their own looks. That conversation wouldn't endear him to me in the least." Ebony wrote: > I couldn't have said it any better myself. I'll third that. I wouldn't touch Ron with a ten foot pole, myself. But then, I wouldn't touch Harry with a ten foot pole. Neither of them strike me as Prince Charming. My shipping toast is after all, "Here's to Harry and Ron, the dates from Hell!" But the girls of the Potterverse are of a different mettle. They are not me. If I were Hermione, I would not give Ron and Harry a second look as potential "soulmates." But, I'm not Hermione. And it seems clear to me that Hermione can stand behaviour from the both of them that would send me screaming in search of Neville. Ebony cites Ron's dismissal of Neville as particularly sickening. I totally agree. But then, Harry's attitude towards Neville sickens me much, much more. There are very few scenes in canon that make me as angry as that place in PoA where Harry calmly and cooly lies to ditch Neville, making it very clear to Neville in the process that Harry considers him worth less than dirt. Oh that must have sunk in waiting for Harry to return, counting the minutes, and realizing that he is not coming. Does Harry mean to do this to Neville? No. He's too excited about going to Hogsmeade to care. Does Ron mean to be so cruel to Neville? No. He's having fun gossipping. Inconsiderate? Hell, yes! Horrible. Just Horrible. Though for my money, Harry's worse. Ron was gossiping with his sister and his best friend. Harry was cruel to Neville in person. But, no, neither of them are very nice. That's why so many people sat up and cheered when Harry finally realized how inconsiderate he had been towards Neville. Perhaps we will see changes in Harry's behaviour? I hope so. Same with Ron. >Having problems in your own life is not an excuse >to be nasty to others. I have no idea how >even the most rabid Ron fan can defend the mean >things he says before, during, and after the Yule > Ball. They are totally indefensible IMO. Oh agreed. But you see, I have no idea how even the most rabid Harry fan can defend the mean things he does and thinks throughout the entire series. They are totally indefensible. Except on the grounds of "I wasn't thinking." Which seems to be Ron's grounds as well. Now, I'm not, as I said, that interested in the trio HPFGU-wise. Where Avery discussion is, there am I. The prospect of writing much more on Harry and Ron boggles the mind. So, I am not going to go through every obnoxious thing those two have said, done, and thought over the four books, except to say that they annoy me very, very much. I'll let the (heartbreaking for me) Neville comparison stand for examination, and maybe I'll get the energy to further explain why Harry irritates me later. Harry is an introvert. Ron is an extrovert. They have their different ways of treating the rest of the world as dirt under their feet, but they both are guilty of exactly that, imho. If I were Hermione, I'm not sure I'd want to be friends with either of them. But then, she has a prickly personality, herself, if not so self-absorbed. >H/H shippers have repeatedly conceded both Harry >*and* Hermione's personality flaws. Rarely do we >receive reciprocation on Ron's part. Well, you have reciprocation here. In fact, I could talk on and on about Ron's bad points for a long time if I had the inclination, since I share (or as a schoolchild did share) most of them. But I don't expect *anyone* to concede that *either* Ron or Harry is as flawed as I read them. I should probably sum up by saying that I love Ron, Hermione, and Harry. Perfectly Angelic Characters Make Awful Novels etc. I am awed that Rowling has managed to write children's characters that are so flawed and yet ultimately so loveable. Harry and Ron bug me because I can't help but love them. Over the next three books, I hope to see both of them mature and learn to be considerate and empathetic. While others are forecasting doom, my gut feeling is that JKR is going to be going in that direction. Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From anglosaxon88 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 03:52:00 2003 From: anglosaxon88 at yahoo.com (anglosaxon88 ) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 03:52:00 -0000 Subject: prof snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50165 Hi, all. I've been a member of the group for ages but never posted before, so please be gentle. I was wondering if the mission Prof Snape is on is to rescue Neville's parents from St. Mungoes. If he does save them, will Neville's mother be the new DADA teacher? Just a thought. FIREBOLT2002 From starropal at hotmail.com Mon Jan 20 04:22:58 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 22:22:58 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] neville longbottom Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50166 Galadriel said: >and we see more and more Neville's strength of character, I believe >he will be able to resist the Imperius curse as his parents couldn't >and prove himself in this way. What do you think? I think Neville will become more important later on, either as a casualty or as an asset. But yes he will have an impact. BUT as far Imperius goes, well I have a question: Does a curse continue to function after the caster is dead or incapacitated? He's been soul sucked - which is worse than dead, just a shell. BTW his parents went mad because of the Cruciatus Curse, not Imperius (GoF, ch 30, page 595 and 603 US paperback). Please don't get me wrong, I'm not jumping down your throat or anything, just trying to be helpful. Star Opal who has been mistook before and now tries to cover all her bases _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 05:10:12 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 21:10:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldie was not shocked In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030120051012.97813.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50167 "Melody " wrote: Star Opal wrote: Before Voldemort used the imperius curse, he taunted Harry "softly" and asked him if he wanted more pain. Then after Harry threw off the imperius, Voldemort asked "quietly" if Harry wanted more pain before he dies. Then after Harry ran behind the gravestone, Voldemort taunted him so more in a "soft, cold voice." I see no change there. Now later on when prior incantatem happens, Voldemort is "shrieking" and "shouting". He is portrayed as being in shock then but not before. I guess, from my viewpoint, *if* Voldemort did not expect Harry to shake the imperius, Voldie would have reacted the way he did in prior incantatem. I mean, if Voldemort was truly planning on his imperius to work, then it seems Harry's ability to throw it would be a shock and a kink in Voldie's plans. It did not even phase him. Me The only problem with that is, even if Harry shaking off the curse shocked "Voldie", I can't see him with his nature shriking or acting shocked and surprised. If you put flesh and bones into the picture, why would he? He is by nature very controlled and calm and confident of himself. He was also totally in control and in charge of the situation against a helpless 14 year old and surrounded by death eaters. So he wouldn't feel or show any real shocked even if he was very surprised. The surprise of Harry shaking off the curse wouldn't upset his composure one bit. It took something like the prior incantation and it's apparent inherent danger as well as his loss of control of the situation to break "voldie's" composure. I doubt he know that his fake Mad Eye Mooney taught him to shake off the spell (although he may have). But neither of them would have considered such an ability in Harry's case to really make any difference as far as their plans were concerned. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From marie_mouse at hotmail.com Mon Jan 20 06:29:18 2003 From: marie_mouse at hotmail.com (Marie Jadewalker ) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 06:29:18 -0000 Subject: SHIP: That Darned Kiss--The Problem With Reading R/H in GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50168 Hi Ebony, First I wanted to say that I really enjoyed both of these essays, as well as the ones over at Fiction Alley. I've been reading shipping arguements avidly recently to make sure I'm firm in my shipping preferances and that they weren't unduly influenced by fanfic. (I read everything Penny linked to from the future pairings FAQ and I'm trying to work my way through the Fiction Alley thread.) Having done so, I can say without question that I support the future relationship of Harry and Hermione. There are many reasons, but few of them would be new. Partly to keep this from being a complete "Me too" post, I wanted to point out one more thing that might help your argument: (From Padfoot Returns, p. 513 in my copy) "There's something funny, though," said Hermione ten minutes later, holding her pestle suspended over a bowl of scarab beetles. "How could Rita Skeeter have known . . . ?" "Known what?" said Ron quickly. "You haven't been mixing up Love Potions, have you?" I know Ebony quoted more of this passage to point out that Hermione's blushes are most likely related to being noticed and desired by a much sought-after boy, rather than Ron specifically. (I agree with that analysis fully, having been a bookish type who was rarely noticed myself.) However, I noticed that this is another example of Ron doubting his friends. He didn't believe Harry about the Goblet or that Hermione would actually have a date, and now he even has to *ask* whether or not she's been mixing up love potions? Honestly, doesn't he know her at all? If I were Hermione, I'd be quite offended hearing that out of the mouth of my friend (from Rita or a Slytherin it's so ridiculous I wouldn't care). Now obviously Ron likes her and is jealous of Krum, so perhaps he's grasping at straws for an explanation, but it still doesn't seem like a question a friend should have to ask. ~Marie, who would love to join the SS H/H if there are any openings still available. From starropal at hotmail.com Mon Jan 20 05:59:55 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 23:59:55 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldie was not shocked Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50169 Melody said: >Maybe this run of lines can be interpreted in two ways, I guess so, I can see where you're coming from, but I think Voldemort was taken aback, but more in an annoyed unexpected way, than all out shock. He's more angry at Harry than afraid, but still a little, thrown. And my whole theory with the DEs is more of personal interpretation than something I can prove. >but I just cannot see how the shock of imperius would not be as great as >the shock of prior incantatem. Well people have come out of Imperius before, we know this. Barty and Mr.. Crouch are only two examples, surely there have been others. So when Harry does it, Voldemort wasn't expecting it, but its not an impossible one in a million chance like two wands connecting and the resulting Prior Incantatem, so its more of a set back. Now first of all Voldemort would have no way of knowing that Harry had his wand's brother. In fact only three people know, Harry, Dumbledore, and Olivander. So we have this incredibly rare occurrence, that LV had no way of anticipating. He is completely out of control. >Why wouldn't Voldemort slightly fear Harry? Ego. Voldemort was thwarted twice by Lilly's protective charm, but now it doesn't effect him. Harry has been under Dumbledore's various protections, but now he's out here on LV's field on LV's terms... "And I am now going to prove my power by killing him, here and now, in front of you all, when there is no Dumbledore to help him, and no mother to die for him." - GoF ch 33 He doesn't see Harry himself as an opponent. He doesn't see Harry as a wizard who has the potential to be very powerful. He see's him as the 'Boy Who Lived'. Harry didn't defeat Voldemort so much as he just didn't die. Voldemort _knows_ himself to be smart, _knows_ himself to be powerful. So when Harry comes out of Imperius, Voldemort still underestimates him because of his ego. Star Opal that may be the first time I've ever used thwarted in a sentence, spiffy _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From pen at pensnest.co.uk Mon Jan 20 08:57:12 2003 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 08:57:12 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vernon's office In-Reply-To: <20030119161240.8599.qmail@web41506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2A3D4D02-2C55-11D7-8252-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 50170 On Sunday, Jan 19, 2003, at 16:12 Europe/London, Lurker#3412 wrote: > > What I do find odd is that there's a baker's shop opposite his office. > It's a building with at least nine floors and has its own car park. I > would have expected to find it on an industrial estate/ business park > rather > than apparently in the middle of town. > ~Eloise > > I had always assumed that it was in the lobby or lunch area of another > building. Is this probable in England? I know that where I live the > industrial areas (if they are large) have small sandwhich shops or > delies (sp?). After all, if there are plenty of business types about, > a bakery could make a good revenue. > For Eloise: I wouldn't necessarily expect an office building as described above to be in a business park or industrial estate - though obviously, it could be. In my home town, while there is an industrial estate on one side of town, there are plenty of offices in the middle, too, several of them with their own car parks. Not many of them have nine floors, but the Kodak building is an honest-to-goodness tower block. It might be slightly off-key to have a company that 'makes drills' with an office in the middle of town, but I dare say that might depend on how old the company is. If Grunnings has been around for a long while, it could easily have town centre offices. For Lurker#3412: I would expect there to be some sandwich shops, small restaurants etc in any industrial estate, but I think these would be independent of the offices. A Lunch area/cafeteria/canteen which belonged specifically to one office would be unlikely to be visible from the street, and would not be referred to as a bakery. Occasionally you might find that in a large block, the ground floor level would be let to small service businesses such as bakeries, and the upper levels would be offices. Pen From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 20 09:20:20 2003 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (Catherine Coleman) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 09:20:20 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sacked - another perspective? In-Reply-To: <20030118205803.20944.qmail@web40514.mail.yahoo.com> References: <200301181815.h0IIFJHM027979@BlackBerry.NET> <20030118205803.20944.qmail@web40514.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50171 In message <20030118205803.20944.qmail at web40514.mail.yahoo.com>, Maria Kirilenko writes >But ultimately it all depends on who composed that teaser card. If it was >JKR herself, then all the words are meaningful, and 'sacked' is too. I >wouldn't be surprised if a major character like Dumbledore got sacked. If, >however, the card was compiled by someone other than JKR, the words >could be of no consequence, really. >Maria Firstly, I'm pretty sure it must have been JKR who composed the card (it was sold for charity, after all) - and if it was, then I think there could well be another dimension to the word "sacked." We know her predilection for misdirection and red herrings, so what if "sacked" doesn't refer to someone's employment status at all? The verb to sack doesn't just apply to employment - people use it casually in the UK to apply to friendships, relationships - it could therefore be yelled at someone in a moment of rage; ("You're sacked!"). There's the possibility that it could refer to someone being thrown off their Quidditch team. Harry? It could have an entirely different meaning - to sack, as in to steal from and destroy. How likely is it that someone's house/property gets "sacked", considering VW2 climate which is developing? The use is a little archaic, I grant you, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the word isn't used in that context in the WW. Finally, a little more on people being sacked. One which I don't think has been mentioned is a pretty mundane, obvious one - Ludo Bagman, who will probably "officially" lose his position due to being Absent Without Leave. All the others suggested are entirely plausible, but the one which really worries me is Fudge. It's that pesky Roman Emperor analogy you see. Catherine From nithya_rachel at hotmail.com Mon Jan 20 09:56:27 2003 From: nithya_rachel at hotmail.com (errolowl ) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 09:56:27 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Rowling=92s_Red_Flag_(Was:_SHIP:_That_Darned_Kiss--The_Problem_With_Reading_R/H_in?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50172 >That Darned Kiss: >"Bye, Harry!" said Hermione, and she did something she had never done before, and kissed him on the cheek. (GoF, UK paper ed., p. 636)< Ok Ebony, I loved your post. It made compelling reading even to a staunch non-shipper, `cause leaving the R/H thread aside, it captured some character formation. See, here's Hermione in her pivotal fourth year in the wizarding world, growing in confidence in her abilities ("you're the cleverest witch of your age I've ever met"), finding a cause to fight for (her own battle, not Harry's or anyone else's), triumphing over her personal enemy (bug! Skeeter), and conscious for the first time that she is attractive to the opposite sex. To her certain knowledge, an international Quidditch star as well as one of her best friends have both shown an interest in her. And what does she do with all that growing confidence? *She does something she's never done before* and kisses Harry on the cheek. Red flag indeed. I've pondered that red flag for quite a while now, as have many, many people before me ? but I just had to say my piece. Red Flag scenario #1: It's really red - a red herring. Sure, its not the first time JKR has done such a thing. There's a lot going on in that last chapter and that phrase makes you focus on that kiss. Consciously draws attention, doesn't it? But away from what? In a story laden with SHIPping, propping a flag like that is guaranteed to capture the audience and divert attention, or so she could have hoped. . (Come now! She couldn't have known that OotP would take so long, nor anticipated the LOONy extents to which we've been pushed). And it's good storytelling to throw in something towards the end of the book that totally disrupts what's been built up upto that point, which was an apparent R/H subtext. Just right to leave you guessing ? and it needn't be important at all. Without that red flag, it really wouldn't have been. And Rowling has stated that she's very proud of her last chapter. But further speculation on what this herring hides is for another post. Red Flag Scenario #2: The Hermione POV: Ebony: >>I think she kisses Harry and not Ron because Harry needed that kiss far more than Ron does. He's just been through quite the ordeal. He is about to go out into the Muggle world, and the place he is going will be totally unsupportive about what he's going through. The Dursleys will not understand what he is going through... and neither does anyone else in the world, really. That kiss is a gesture that speaks far less of superficial"like" than it does of a deep and abiding friendship.<< Yep, that could well be it. A friendly, compassionate farewell. That's my first instinctive reading as well, and I intend to hang on to it. But taken in the light of Hermione's growing confidence, it could bolster the H/H if it is her way of putting up her stake. Having assured herself that she *is* somewhat attractive, she gets up the courage to make the first move though Harry is completely clueless. Does this imply that she's been secretly moping for Harry and feeling inadequate thus far? NO. I don't think so. But is sheat the point where she sees new possibilities? When you feel great about yourself, the world does seems richer; you can react without inhibition to situations you would have, quite subconsciously, blocked out from consideration as impossible at another time. To quote Ebony again, if slightly out of order, >>It was about *Hermione*--Hermione and the way she views herself as an emerging young woman.<< Red Flag Scenario #3: The Harry POV: Maybe this flag has less to do with Hermione than to do with Harry. Ron is a given for `the typical teenage guy' who can't figure out his own mind. Now how is Harry different? We see the entire world from Harry's POV, *this phrase included*. It's not Rowling narrating for our benefit, its not Hermione making a decision, but it's *Harry* who suddenly notices here that it's something that Hermione hasnever done before. Why? Note, I'm NOT shipping here... looking at authorial intent perhaps? Take this to be a misguided attempt to look at one of the most intriguing phrases in the books, brought on by Ebony's essay! And of course, I'm certain all this has been debated before ? how else do you think we got up to post # 50170 or so?? Errol From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 10:51:01 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 02:51:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: nautical hazards//judgments//Cho [was] SHIP: Harry/Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030120105101.26065.qmail@web21104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50173 maria_kirilenko: > But I don't think I like Harry with > anyone. I remember that I got very > mad the second I read the line "She > was shorter than Harry by about a > head, and Harry couldn't help > noticing, nervous as he was, that > she was extremely pretty. She > smiled at Harry as the teams faced > each other behind their captains, > and he felt a slight lurch in the > region of his stomach that he > didn't think had anything to do > with nerves." (PoA, "GRYFFINDOR > VERSUS RAVENCLAW") . > I don't know why - it's *not* > because I want Harry for myself > , or have a specific preference > for whom he will end up with, but > since then I've always disliked Cho > Chang Does this mean you dislike Cho solely because Harry has a crush on her? You'd hardly be the only person to do so in this fandom but this has always given me great pause. How do those of you who feel this way about Cho reconcile your poor opinion of her with the book's theme of the importance of choices? In other words, what choices has she made that led you to dislike her so? I'd also like to know if there are any canon whatsoever that could support the pinning on Cho of her own current status as the biggest anchor on every ship hoping for patronage by Canon!Harry. Is it actually Cho's FAULT that Harry's romantic interest is focused on her at this point in this series? See, I am equally puzzled by those who dislike Ginny with as much strength. Neither Cho nor Ginny are intrinsically undeserving people. In order for me to read them as such, I would have to NARROW and FLATTEN my viewpoint. Is there justification for doing so in any quest to better understand the big picture that is HP canon? Should the pursuit of enlightenment in RL be subordinate to the pursuit of happiness on behalf of fictional characters? maria_kirilenko: > (do you think it might be because > she's not from Gryffindor? I > wonder...). Well, I dare say only you can speak for yourself on this point, no? Perhaps the answer to this may shed some light: do you dislike every non-Gryffindor? Do you hold a prejudice against any other non- Gryffindor? Of course, the problem is, except for those Harry holds in enmity, we don't really know anyone outside of the Gryffindors well enough to say whether they are 'dislikable.' Well...do we? So, how can such dislike be explained? Or justified? To have a strong opinion, positive or negative, about people we barely know is the definition of prejudice after all. You know, the older I get, the more forgiving I am of those who prejudge. It happens - we are mere mortals who are still works in progress. It's what we CHOOSE to do once we recognize our own prejudices (be it racial or otherwise) for what they are that is truly telling of who we are. Look at how Molly adapted to finding out that she mistook Hermione for a 'scarlet woman.' I admire her grace in facing the embarrassment of having her error in judgment pointed out and adore her the more for choosing to incorporate the new information into an improved grasp of the situation. maria_kirilenko: > I don't think I would mind > Harry/Ginny, however, although I > probably won't know exactly until > something happens. > Ginny knows much more about Harry > than he (and we, too) knows about > her. We know she's a nice person > (goes to ball with Neville although > she has a chance to go with Harry) > and that she has a sense of humour > (is amused by Weasley's Wizard > Wheezes), but that's all. Harry and > Ron dismiss her because she's Ron's > little sister (only 1 year or less > younger than Ron, BTW), but I hope > that something will happen so we, > and with Harry, can find out more > about her. > > Who knows, maybe he'll like what he > finds out. Seeing that you've just made a case for H/G (using principles that do not apply solely to Ginny, BTW) are you sure you're not a closet H/G shipper? 'Cause your earlier statement "I don't think I like Harry with anyone" now reads like a description of an opinion you...uhm...no longer hold. And therefore no longer justifies your dislike of Cho. The statement "Harry may like what he finds out" is applicable to just about every character. Especially if one holds the belief that every human have the capacity to evolve, no matter where the starting point. This is why I'll board no ship before JKR's Harry and his beloved (whomever that may turn out to be) do so. Petra a n :) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From sushi at societyhappens.com Mon Jan 20 09:35:24 2003 From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 03:35:24 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] prof snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030120032753.02712c50@mail.societyhappens.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50174 At 03:52 AM 1/20/03 +0000, you wrote: >Hi, all. I've been a member of the group for ages but never posted >before, so please be gentle. I was wondering if the mission Prof Snape >is on is to rescue Neville's parents from St. Mungoes. If he does >save them, will Neville's mother be the new DADA teacher? > >Just a thought. > >FIREBOLT2002 Hmm, unlikely I'd say. First off, we don't know enough about her to know whether or not she knows anything about the Dark Arts or not. Second, it sounds like a waste of a captive/"tame"/renegade Death Eater to send him into a hospital. Third, the woman has been detached (or drugged) for so long she doesn't recognise her own son, much less would she be stable enough to teach. Fourth, is there any indication of something sinister enough going on at Saint Mungo's to warrant Severus going pale? Unless he just hates the place that much, it doesn't make a helluva lot of sense. Then, if he *does* hate the place that much, what happened to him there? Accused Death Eater, can't be sent to Azkaban for technical reasons so he's shipped off to the psychiatric ward for "observation", comes out a bitter, suspicious, sullen wreck? It's unlikely, but it's a thought. Interesting theory you've got, Firebolt. :) I don't agree with it, but it's like nothing I've seen before. Sushi [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lupinesque at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 11:25:56 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z ) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:25:56 -0000 Subject: Ron is an Inconsiderate Idiot (Re: Ebony's Essay) In-Reply-To: <20030120071822.3069.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50175 Ebony wrote: > >H/H shippers have repeatedly conceded both Harry > >*and* Hermione's personality flaws. Rarely do we > >receive reciprocation on Ron's part. Eileen wrote: > Well, you have reciprocation here. In fact, I could > talk on and on about Ron's bad points for a long time > if I had the inclination, since I share (or as a > schoolchild did share) most of them. Yeah, I don't have nearly such a jaundiced view of Harry and Ron as Eileen does, but I'll bite. Ron can be: stubborn (GF fight) sharp-tongued (ditto, "photo call" comment) disloyal/cowardly (not speaking up against "Potter Stinks") hot-tempered (do I need to cite examples?) slow on the uptake (the Watsonian-sidekick act in CS . . . ) conventional (flinching at entering a girls' bathroom) vengeful (breaking off the Krum model's arm) sulky (when upset about the leprecaun gold, he has to have the problem dragged out of him) insensitive (going on about AK after "The Unforgivable Curses") etc. Of course, you could say a lot of the same things about Harry, as Eileen already did. As a friend of mine said in exasperation after finishing GF, "They're so . . . so . . . 14!" No doubt he found it far more excruciating than I did, having been a 14-year-old boy himself. I have no problem laughing at them and shrugging most of it off with a "they're basically nice kids, they'll grow out of it." Hermione's know-it-all-ness, on the other hand, makes me cringe with a very personal shame . . . But back to Ebony's point, the does-Hermione-reciprocate question is endlessly fascinating, but in the end, does it matter whether she does or not? Ron has a crush on her, so in OP sparks will fly, one way or another. Amy Z ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "I've got two Neptunes here," said Harry after a while, frowning down at his piece of parchment, "that can't be right, can it?" "Aaaaah," said Ron, imitating Professor Trelawney's mystical whisper, "when two Neptunes appear in the sky, it is a sure sign that a midget in glasses is being born, Harry. . . ." --HP and the Goblet of Fire ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From julia at thequiltbug.com Mon Jan 20 14:52:55 2003 From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 06:52:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ron and Harry Are Inconsiderate Idiots Message-ID: <20030120065257.26411.h013.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> No: HPFGUIDX 50176 > > Linda McCabe wrote: > "And females, especially bookish females can feel very > insecure about their own looks. That conversation > wouldn't endear him to me in the least." > > Ebony wrote: > > I couldn't have said it any better myself. > Eileen wrote: > I'll third that. I wouldn't touch Ron with a ten foot > pole, myself. But then, I wouldn't touch Harry with a > ten foot pole. Neither of them strike me as Prince > Charming. me: Good Lord, yes. (Hermione could be my twin for all we act alike. Books and bushy hair and all.) They are really horrible most of the time. Harry I can see, in a way - not an excuse, mind you, just an explanation - look how he's been treated his whole life. He doesn't really have any "role models" to look up to. Well, now he does, but look what's been imprinted on him his whole life. Vernon and Dudley and Dudley's stupid friends!! I'm surprised he's not an evil psychopath. Ron, on the other hand, has grown up with plenty of male role models - his wonderful father, Charlie/Bill who seem to have their act together - and a warm and loving family headed by a mother who takes *no* crap. (I just want to slap him and say "I know your mother taught you better than that!!) Ron has **absolutely no excuse** for his behaviour. I don't see being overshadowed by older brothers and not having a lot of money as an explanation for his behaviour. There are worse things in life. Like having no family at all. Eileen: > Ebony cites Ron's dismissal of Neville as particularly > sickening. I totally agree. But then, Harry's attitude > towards Neville sickens me much, much more. me: It makes me sick too. But when Harry sees that someone is hurting, he does help. Book One, p. 218. Malfoy has put a Leg-Locker on Neville, who comes back to the common room in tears, beating himself up. Ron yells at him to stand up to people. ***** "There's no need to tell me I'm not brave enough to be in Gryffindor, Malfoy's already done that," Neville choked out. Harry felt in the pocket of his robes and pulled out a Chocolate Frog, the very last one from the box Hermione had given him for Christmas. He gave it to Neville, who looked as though he might cry. "You're worth twelve of Malfoy," Harry said. "The Sorting Hat chose you for Gryffindor, didn't it? And where's Malfoy? In stinking Slytherin." ***** How many 11 year old boys go around giving other boys the last of their candy? Most 11 year old boys I teach are jerks of the highest order. Harry can't be kind and considerate all the time - he'd be Gary Stu. But he IS kind and considerate sometimes. Harry and Hermione were the only two helping Neville...everyone else was laughing at him. I can't find a time when Ron is actually nice to Neville. Ever. I wish I could. If someone does, please share it. That being said, I do adore both Harry and Ron, though Ron a little less after GoF. If they were both Goody Two Shoes they wouldn't be half as interesting. Maybe that's why Draco is such a popular figure...he's just interesting. Julia From jizzkitty420 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 15:21:50 2003 From: jizzkitty420 at yahoo.com (Giselle Sicle) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 07:21:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Jobs In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030119202850.07649670@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <20030120152150.46997.qmail@web13106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50177 "James P. Robinson III" wrote:As the clock struck 02:17 PM 1/19/2003 -0800, Maria Kirilenko took pen in hand and wrote: >My father said recently that wizards don't have very many employment >options - namely, they can only work in the MoM. We, of course, know >that's not true - they can also work in Hogwarts, in shops, on the Knight >Bus and Hogwarts Express. But that's still very little! > >So... any ideas for where else they can work *to earn money*? Death-eating >and 'taking a year off to get some first-hand experience at DADA' do not count! > >Maria Well, there is also banking. I believe "curse breaking" is a WW equivalent for investment banking. It might be quite lucrative as it apparently involves tomb robbing and "bringing home [to the bank] lots of treasure." There is probably also a living to be made inventing and marketing new magical potions and gizmos. How about magical construction? Someone needs to build and repair wizard homes and buildings. There are apparently manufacturing type jobs, as there are firms that mass produce brooms. There are entrepreneurs like Ali Bashir trying to (illegally) import flying carpets. I think there is a wide range of potential WW jobs. Jim we can't forget, dragon breeding. Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Mon Jan 20 15:51:13 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 09:51:13 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] prof snape References: Message-ID: <3E2C1AF1.BE9727DD@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50178 "anglosaxon88 " wrote: > > Hi, all. I've been a member of the group for ages but never posted > before, so please be gentle. I was wondering if the mission Prof Snape > > is on is to rescue Neville's parents from St. Mungoes. If he does > save them, will Neville's mother be the new DADA teacher? > > Just a thought. > > FIREBOLT2002 Rescue them from a hospital? They are insane, not in prison. If Snape had a cure, he would just go there and offer it, not break them out and try to cure them. My money is still on a NEW character, as new characters have been introduced in every book. The DADA teacher has always been a new character, so why change that trend? Jazmyn From lupinesque at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 16:19:24 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z ) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:19:24 -0000 Subject: Ron and Harry Are Inconsiderate Idiots In-Reply-To: <20030120065257.26411.h013.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50179 Calliope wrote: > I can't find a time when Ron is actually nice to Neville. Ever. I wish I > could. If someone does, please share it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- GF12: "I'll just have to--ooops . . . " Neville's foot had sunk right thorugh a step halfway up the staircase. There were many of these trick stairs at Hogwarts; it was secong nature to most of the older students to jump this particular step, but Neville's memory was notoriously poor. Harry and Ron seized him under the armpits and pulled him out, while a suit of armour at th etop of the stairs creaked and clanked, laughing wheezily. "Shut it, you," said Ron, banging down its visor as they passed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- It's one of my favorite Ron moments. Being kind, but in a characteristically brusque and indirect way. Incidentally, it also shows JKR's plotting genius at work. "The Egg and the Eye" would have seem contrived if she hadn't cleverly reminded us about the trick stair several chapters earlier, and shown us that when you step onto it, you're good and stuck until someone helps you out. *shakes head in admiration* Amy Z who loves Ron and Harry both to death even if they *are* Ever So Fourteen From stormlass at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 16:58:08 2003 From: stormlass at yahoo.com (snapesrighthand) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 08:58:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] neville longbottom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030120165808.72705.qmail@web14510.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50180 Opal: I think Neville will become more important later on, either as a casualty or as an asset. But yes he will have an impact. Alex: Yes, I agree. Rowling gave us important information about Neville. She kept dropping hints... like... paraphrase... Harry would have heard that Nevilles usual snores were not heard. Opal: BUT as far Imperius goes, well I have a question: Does a curse continue to function after the caster is dead or incapacitated? He's been soul sucked - which is worse than dead, just a shell. BTW his parents went mad because of the Cruciatus Curse, not Imperius (GoF, ch 30, page 595 and 603 US paperback). Please don't get me wrong, I'm not jumping down your throat or anything, just trying to be helpful. Alex: I have often wondered if Neville was tortured to? Why is he so bad with magic? Did he witness his parents being tortured? Is he scarred and that is why he can not do magic well? Did they put some kind of memory curse on him dimming his mind so he would not remember something? just my 2 cents alexandra __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From sevothtarte at gmx.net Mon Jan 20 18:14:25 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:14:25 +0100 Subject: Fleur Message-ID: <4HGGSZVIEUSZX54DC97FCRN76FDA7.3e2c3c81@tk> No: HPFGUIDX 50181 It seems like many peeple here dislike her a lot, which I don't really understand. I'd like to adress two points: 1. Fleur's abilities She wouldn't neccessarily be a bad choice for DADA teacher. Not taking her youth into consideration (not that Dumbledore seemed to care about this when he appointed Quirrell), she is a very able witch. She was among the students Madame Maxime picked and/or tested as suitable Triwizard champion candidates. She was chosen by the Goblet. And she didn't mess up during the tasks. At the first task, she didn't do worse than Cedric and Viktor, and just like Viktor she simply had bad luck. She managed to entrance the dragon, but it snored - is that her fault? No, and she was able and calm enough to deal with her skirt being on fire, she didn't panic. All in all, she put herself in less danger than any of the other champions at the first task, which speaks for her. The second task: Someone said she couldn't even deal with Grindylows. True, but we don't know how many attacked her. Could Harry have dealt with twenty Grindylows? I doubt it. For all we know, she might not even have been able to cast spells while under the Bubble-Head charm. Also, how well would Harry have done if not for Myrtle's help? That lake is huge, Fleur could have searched for the hostages for hours without finding them. Like Harry, she took the song seriously and was dead worried for her beloved sister. If you're lost deep down in a dark lake, slowly panicking because you're afraid your sister is about to die and Grindylows attack you, it's not easy to deal with them. As for the third task, we can't say anything positive or negative for her. 2. Fleur's character So she's physically attractive. Is this a problem or her fault? No. She's probably aware of being beautiful, but so what? She doesn't try to use it to her advantage. Harry talks about her turning on her Veela charms, but that's just Harry talking to comfort Ron, and there's no proof for it. But even if she was interested in Cedric and tried her best to get him interested in her, is that something bad? Everyone does it. Do you want to appear ugly or not interesting to someone you're attracted to? It's not her fault, if boys start to act dumb around her, is she supposed to grow warts to appear less attractive? If Fleur wanted to take advantage during the tournament, she could easily have done so. Bagman, for example, could easily be charmed by a beautiful young woman's interest, but she doesn't approach him, or Percy, or any other potential target which could help her win the tournament. Next, she complains a lot. Again: so what? She's young and she's far away from home, her family, her friends, familiar surroundings. Voicing homesickness through complaining is a common fault, but surely no serious character flaw. And there seems to be more luxury in Beauxbatons, she doesn't make it up. HRH would be complaining if they were stuck in Durmstrang, among lots of strangers, in a cold, barren place. Now for Ron: She doesn't ever treat him badly. She never makes fun of him. She didn't reply when he asked her for the ball, but that's no sign of arrogance, look at it from her point of view: You're talking to someone, when suddenly someone you don't know at all shows up and asks you to be his partner. Wouldn't you be somewhat stunned to, not knowing what to say? Unlike Harry, she just kept silent instead of spontaneously replying in a hurting way, not that Ron appears to have waited long for her answer anyway. In conclusion: It's not her fault she's pretty and smart. She doesn't display any more negative traits than any of the other kids. She didn't win her 'position' as champions because she's good-looking, but because she is good at magic. Real people who are beautiful, intelligent and successfull are often the targets of envy and anger just because they are beautiful, intelligent, successfull. To me, it seems like it's just the same when it comes to people's opinion of this fictional character. Ok, now curse me for liking her. ^_~ Torsten From lupinesque at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 19:10:32 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z ) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:10:32 -0000 Subject: Real characters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50182 Ebony's post, and more especially Eileen's follow-up trashing Ron *and* Harry, made me think about how we tend to chew up characters if they are less than perfect. We're like the Donner Party at this point. After two and a half years without fresh meat, we're reduced to cannibalism--not eating each other but munching on the characters we've got stashed in the hold. So if you stick around here long enough, you will see each character ripped to shreds. Hagrid isn't just a middling teacher who has a few too many now and then; he's a dangerously drunk abuser. Lupin isn't just a man who really ought to face facts and face his past; he's a lying coward. Ron isn't just a kid with a bit of a temper, a sarcastic tongue, and lazy study habits; he's stupid, mean, and incompetent. Snape isn't just a mean sonofabitch; he should be reported to the Child Protective Services. Colin isn't just a pain in the ass; he's a paparazzo who's going to drive Harry to a Di-like doom any moment. Percy isn't just a bit uptight and full of himself; he's despicable. Molly isn't just a bit overbearing; she's a terrible parent. Hooch isn't just conveniently careless about letting first-years off the ground; she's a complete failure as a teacher. People seldom feel prepared to take on Harry, but there are the few and the brave who'll even do that. I'm not suggesting that we stop criticizing characters. I am definitely of the interpretive school that looks at them as if they were real people and asks what we would think of them if we met them in real life (after we'd finished fainting from bliss, that is). That means being able to say frankly, if it's true, "If I were in class with someone like Hermione Granger I'd want to slap her." I do think, however, that JKR has created very nuanced characters. Some are caricatures, but most have complexity that makes it impossible to dismiss them utterly, even if on balance, we don't like them. Heck, Elkins can make *Barty Crouch Jr.,* Death Eater, parricide, abductor of Moody, would-be murderer of Harry, exploiter of Neville, torturer of Cedric, and abuser of Draco (if that bothers you), sympathetic. And yet sometimes we write about complex characters the way young readers talk about Hermione: "She's so bossy," they say, and hate her, not noticing that there is a lot more to Hermione than that and that the author unquestionably intends her to be interesting, likeable, and admirable (if not perfect). I know I'm echoing what many have said when I say that I love most of these characters *because* they're imperfect. Ron is a real kid, flawed and complex, which makes it possible to swallow his incredible courage and loyalty and believe that he could be that funny on such a consistent basis. Harry is an unusually kind and balanced teenager, especially given his background, but he can be rude or insensitive at times. Lupin is not an angel, just a good man who deludes himself and screws up and then feels like crap about it. Even Dumbledore makes mistakes, as our scrap of OP suggests. So I laugh at subjects like "Ron and Harry are Inconsiderate Idiots," and even write posts with such titles myself, but really, I get sad when we start to devour the characters who give us such wonderful images of ourselves and other real people we know. Fortunately, a truckload of food arrives in five months. Amy Z ----------------------------------------- "Winky is having trouble adjusting, Harry Potter," squeaked Dobby confidentially. --HP and the Goblet of Fire ----------------------------------------- From siskiou at earthlink.net Mon Jan 20 19:17:24 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:17:24 -0800 Subject: Ron asking Fleur + other question was Re: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: The Yule Brawl--The Problem With Reading R/H in GoF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1688606317.20030120111724@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 50183 Hi, Sunday, January 19, 2003, 6:36:17 PM, Ebony wrote: > and a Ron who is totally upset by his > rejection by Fleur. > Ron who called poor Eloise Midgen a "troll", with one glance > from a > pretty girl, feels quite a bit like a sea-slug. I have many posts filed away for later reading and answering, but no time... Anyway, the above stood out to me while making my way through the post. You seem to have read the passage as Ron being mostly upset by the rejection. To me it sounded as if he was more upset with himself for being overcome by the veela charm and asking her, with the sea slug remark just a little side issue (Ron has probably heard disparaging remarks about his own nose, before ). It didn't sound to me as if he had seriously planned on asking Fleur beforehand and thought she'd consider him as a partner. I mean, seriously, while a 14 year old boy might have phantasies of going out with a 17 year old girl (or is she 18?), most have enough brains to see the unlikeliness of said phantasy ;) PS: It would be great to see what other book characters think of Harry, Ron and Hermione. Is Hermione liked better, now, then she was at first (it seems to me she really didn't have any friends and it was due to her own behavior)? Is Ron seen as a big jerk by all girls and most boys? And how about Harry? For being so famous, people sure turn their backs on him pretty quickly, whenever a doubt arises. Would other people I asked my daughter (11) who she would like to hang out with, if she could be at Hogwarts, and after a lot of thought, she thought that Harry and Ron might be okay (for boys!). Hermione, she isn't sure about at all. She thinks Hermione is sometimes very rude (this stems mostly from the cat/rat fight in PoA, I think. My daughter loves all animals, and thinks Hermione was completely wrong here. She also hates that Scabbers was later discovered to be Pettigrew. She was very attached to Scabbers) :} Fleur was her No.1 pick (big surprise for me). She thought Fleur wasn't very nice at first, but improved greatly throughout the book. My daughter also felt sorry for her, because other kids disliked her for attracting boys easily. She thought it was mean, since Fleur didn't pick her heritage and can't turn this "feature" on and off at will (or can she, and we missed that?) -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From siskiou at earthlink.net Mon Jan 20 19:29:03 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:29:03 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Real characters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <139304989.20030120112903@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 50184 Hi, Monday, January 20, 2003, 11:10:32 AM, Amy wrote: > So I laugh at subjects like "Ron and Harry are Inconsiderate Idiots," > and even write posts with such titles myself, but really, I get sad > when we start to devour the characters who give us such wonderful > images of ourselves and other real people we know. Fortunately, a > truckload of food arrives in five months. And just think, if JKR had made Harry, Ron and Hermione (at least) acting perfectly sensible and pc in every situation, we'd probably not read the books, or at least call the characters Mary Sue/Stue and completely unrealistic . We probably wouldn't say: Oh, Ron/Harry/Hermione is *such* a *nice* kid. Look how maturely s/he handled this! It's be more like: Yeah, right! and roll our eyes ;) They'd be wonderful role models, but hardly anyone would want to read about them. How could a kid identify with the characters, if they were all so far above us? -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From jenP_97 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 19:36:16 2003 From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (Jennifer Piersol ) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:36:16 -0000 Subject: SHIP: The Yule Brawl--The Problem With Reading R/H in GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50185 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ebony " wrote: > Okay, this is the part that my shipmates and I > just adore. Brace yourselves. Okay, I'm braced. Fair warning: I'm not really a rabid shipper - I would suppose I lean R/H, but when I read (past tense) fanfic (I don't anymore), I quite enjoyed many of the major H/H... In any case, I'm using personal experience as qualification for the following arguments... not ship preference. > When Ron utters the famous "Hermione, Neville's > right--you are a girl..." line... in which he > cites NEVILLE as an authority... the same > character that Ron disparages just a few > paragraphs up and throughout the scene > > Hermione doesn't blush or flinch at all! > > If she does like Ron, I find it very strange > that she doesn't quail under Ron's very > appraising look, followed by a grin. Don't you? I would agree with this for the most part. If I were Hermione in this instance and *did* like Ron, I would probably be blushing/stammering/whatever would make it obvious I was uncomfortable. > Then... look at this sequence: > > ****************** > "Hermione, Neville's right--you are a girl." > > "Oh, well spotted," she said acidly. > > "Well, you can come with one of us." > > "No, I can't," snapped Hermione. > ****************** > > Ha! She's *still* got an attitude with him here. > It's all very "Ron, you are an idiot" IMO. I > just don't get any "I like you" vibes on her part. > (We have seen Hermione in "like" mode before with > Lockhart refer to CoS. Yes, I know that was > merely a crush and Ron is True Love, but still. > *grin*) I agree, she's still got an attitude here. And I can totally agree with the attitude - Ron's just a big ol' clod here. > But then... notice the shift after Ron's next > statement. > > "Oh, come on," he said impatiently, "we need > partners, we're going to look really stupid if we > haven't got any, everyone else has..." > > "I can't come with you," said Hermione, *now > blushing*... > > Uh-oh. > > Okay. Why does she only blush then and not > along with the "Well spotted" comment? And Ron's > very thorough appraisal? Why the 180 degree > turnaround? > > Has the H/H reading faltered? Has the HMS Pumpkin > Pie ship sprung a leak? > > *evil grin* > > Well, no. Okay, here's where my arguments are going to start... > Let's look at that statement again. > > "Oh come on," he said impatiently, "*we* need > partners, *we're* going to look really stupid if > *we* haven't got any, everyone else has . . ." > > Oh, this is *too* rich. > > When Ron says, "Well, you can come with one of us," > Hermione's cross for an obvious reason Ron's just > insulted her! But when Ron pleads (impatiently, > might I add), he re-emphasizes the "we" *three > times* > > You see, my shipmates and I speculate that it occurs > to Hermione that Harry is included in those "we" > statements. Because Ron says we, Harry is implied > as well. And after all, Harry is Hermione's focus > for large portions of the first four books that > cannot be ignored and Harry is the one who *needs* > a partner for the ball. Ron, being a fourth year, > *can go alone*. But Harry can't he is required to > find a partner. I am certain that Hermione is aware > of this. > > And she *blushes*. > > Squee! > > Gotta love it. > I just can't agree with this. Does this make me a no-shipper? ;) I'm not going to delve into Hermione's feelings here... but this is how I read it. Hermione isn't blushing because she puts Harry in Ron's "we" statements. I think Hermione is blushing simply because Krum, the most popular kid at Hogwarts at the moment - the boy the girls are fawning over, the boys are asking for autographs, and is an international quidditch star asked *her*. Okay, that didn't quite come out like I wanted. I don't mean that she's in luuuuurve with Krum, either... Argh! What I mean is that Hermione has a date already. Said date is the same person she (at the beginning of the school year) mildly insulted here (GoF, ch19): "Hermione often complained about Krum being there -- not that he ever botherd them -- but because groups of giggling girls often turned up to spy on him from behind bookshelves, and Hermione found the noise distracting. 'He's not even good-looking!' she muttered angrily, glaring at Krum's sharp profile. 'They only like him because he's famous! They wouldn't look twice at him if he couldn't do that Wonky-Faint thing --'" Now *she's* the one with a date with him. Perhaps she doesn't want to be seen as one of these "giggling girls". Perhaps she feels bad about what she said before. I think she's blushing because she thinks that Harry and Ron will tease her if she tells them who her date is (and this is why she doesn't tell them until the actual ball). This, of course, doesn't preclude her fancying one of the boys. In fact, it could still support *either* boy as the object of her affection. I'm just arguing the motives for the blush, here. JenP, no-shipper and momentary delurker. From manawydan at ntlworld.com Mon Jan 20 19:12:11 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:12:11 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Jobs References: <1043030177.2839.3450.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <005701c2c0b7$d5a677c0$9c7d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 50186 > Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 14:17:35 -0800 (PST) > From: Maria Kirilenko > Subject: Jobs > > > My father said recently that wizards don't have very many employment options - namely, they can only work in the MoM. We, of course, know that's not true - they can also work in Hogwarts, in shops, on the Knight Bus and Hogwarts Express. But that's still very little! > > So... any ideas for where else they can work *to earn money*? Death-eating and 'taking a year off to get some first-hand experience at DADA' do not count! Some of the other posts have covered part of this already... As you say, the largest employer certainly appears to be the Ministry, who are involved in everything, to the extent that one could wonder out loud exactly how the wizard economy can stand the financial burden! Of the others that we have _seen_ in the books: Education of course, but also ancillary jobs - Hogwarts has a groundskeeper, a caretaker, a librarian, and so on. Transport - the train and the bus. Catering - the various taverns in London and Hogsmeade Retail - shops ditto Media - the radio, newspapers, magazines, not to mention wizards like Lockhart who appear able to support themselves as full time writers and self publicists Sport - Quidditch is a professional game with a number of teams Finance - Ron's brother works for Gringotts as a treasure finder. Going beyond this is of course purely speculative but leads to some interesting speculation. I think the correct term for most of the wizardly economy is not mediaeval or 19th century but pre-industrial. There would have to be some industrial processes - otherwise how would they get hold of metal - but I would feel that most of those would be susceptible to magical processes (which would almost certainly be less toxic both to the miner/smelter and to the environment than their muggle equivalents). Most other commodities mentioned would be able to be produced in a craft environment. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 19:47:56 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:47:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Real characters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030120194756.71924.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50187 Amy wrote: "I'm not suggesting that we stop criticizing characters. I am definitely of the interpretive school that looks at them as if they were real people and asks what we would think of them if we met them in real life (after we'd finished fainting from bliss, that is). That means being able to say frankly, if it's true, "If I were in class with someone like Hermione Granger I'd want to slap her." I agree with Amy completely. These kids are teenagers! Has anybody known or raised any teenager who you haven't wanted to strangle at times? It's part of being a teenager! As far as the adults, again, these people (except it seems Dumbledore) are not perfect! They have their preculiarities, faults and failings like every one of us. Now as far as somebody like Snape, his shortcomings like shown in 'The Prisioner of Azkaban' is so strong that his hatreds and anger can blind him to reason and rationality. But even he obviously has his good points or Dumbledore wouldn't be depending on him so much. So there is a danger of analyzing everything where every speck gets blown out of porportion. Kind of a fun thing to do though I must say. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Mon Jan 20 19:53:12 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 14:53:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Real characters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030120195312.94557.qmail@web20414.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50188 --- "Amy Z " wrote: > Ebony's post, and more especially Eileen's follow-up > trashing Ron > *and* Harry, made me think about how we tend to chew > up characters if > they are less than perfect. We're like the Donner > Party at this > point. After two and a half years without fresh > meat, we're reduced > to cannibalism--not eating each other but munching > on the characters > we've got stashed in the hold. Oh dear, no! I was in prime mood for Harry and Ron trashing the moment I finished GoF! The only reason I haven't done much of that on the list is that Harry and Ron are so much less interesting than the other characters we could trash. But, really, you don't know what character trashing is until you've hung around with rabid Tolkien fans. The uninitiated might suppose that Tolkien fans don't like any of his characters. The truth is that the characters have become so important to fans that they take on a life of their own. And once they do that, we react to them like real people, by providing different perspectives on them, satirizing them, poking at them, trashing at them. I don't at all think it's a bad thing to trash characters. > I know I'm echoing what many have said when I say > that I love most of > these characters *because* they're imperfect. Well, of course, PACMAN. Perfectly Angelic Characters Make Awful Novels. The inconsiderateness and idiocy of Ron and Harry are actually what make me love them as characters, even though they irritate me as people. Though, of course, being a rabid shipper, there was an obvious subtext to my post, which was that Harry isn't anymore appropriate than Ron if you want to pair Hermione up with a considerate boy. :-) > Fortunately, a > truckload of food arrives in five months. And we can start trashing Mundungus Fletcher. Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From tub_of_earwax at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 20:05:09 2003 From: tub_of_earwax at yahoo.com (tub_of_earwax ) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 20:05:09 -0000 Subject: DADA teacher (original no?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50189 Snice there's been some speculation again on the new DADA teacher, I'de like to put in this post all of the possibilities. All we know is that she's going to be female. Here goes. Arabella Figg --> This way we get to know her. JKR said we'de get to know more/all about her. There's nothing you can say against het becomeing the new DADA teacher. Molly Weasley --> This way Molly can also earn some extra cash for the family, also in case Arthus is the one to get sacked on grounds of suspicion of conspiracy they at least have an income. This would be funny, and handy, but annoying for the trio, because they wouldn't be able to sneak around very well, now would they? That could be either a point against or for Molly being the new teacher. Fleur Delacour --> She said she would be applying for a job at Hogwarts. Could be she'd be an assistant teacher, because she's so young. Nothing against this theory except she's so young. Witches Harry meets the first time he's in the Leaky Cauldron --> A few were female. We've met them. Not much for, or against (except that they don't seen so wonderful, and what a pitty it would be not to have an interesting DADA teacher, but then again, maybe they are interesting and we don't know it) Mrs. Lestrange --> Polyjuice again? Aging potion? Some other mode of diguise? Already done, but it would be interesting. We would find out all about her. Narcissa Malfoy --> Now this would be funny. How would Snape react? A DE's wife teaches the job he supposedly "wants". But not very probable Narcissa would want this, she's too stuck up for it. Madame Maxime --> The thing for is: she's close to h=Hagrid and she can help in the war. But the point against it is that she has to be at Beauxbatons, kind of. The witch who says something in GoF when the dark Mark was shot up in the air (some speculate this to be Arabella Figg) --> She works at the minstry, she seems pretty cool as she defended Harry and Hermione. She could be a link to the MoM also. A female professor who has some DA experience, that we don't know about already at Hogwarts --> Prof. Sinistra? This is a long shot. Someone not introduced to us yet. And those are all of the possibilities. I myself think it's either going to be one of the top three, madam Maxime, or the "GoF witch". Best bet or Arabella Figg though. Ciao, *Lara*. From lupinesque at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 20:17:17 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z ) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 20:17:17 -0000 Subject: Real characters In-Reply-To: <20030120195312.94557.qmail@web20414.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50190 Eileen wrote: > But, really, you don't know what character trashing is > until you've hung around with rabid Tolkien fans. The > uninitiated might suppose that Tolkien fans don't like > any of his characters. The truth is that the > characters have become so important to fans that they > take on a life of their own. And once they do that, we > react to them like real people, by providing different > perspectives on them, satirizing them, poking at them, > trashing at them. I don't at all think it's a bad > thing to trash characters. Maybe we mean the word differently. I like providing different perspectives on, satirizing, and poking at the characters (*especially* in Tolkien! I live with a rabid Tolkien fan and every time Sam does something "thoughtfully" he all but throws the book across the room. Then he carries on rereading it for the 25th time). But I wouldn't call any of that "trashing." "Trashing" to me implies that we aren't able to see anything good about them--in fact, are seeing them as flat characters, even though they're not. I wrote: > > Fortunately, a > > truckload of food arrives in five months. Eileen wrote: > And we can start trashing Mundungus Fletcher. Heh, we can do that right now. Hexing Arthur? Defrauding the Ministry? FIE* on him, I say! Amy *Fletcher Is Evil From donjenl at swbell.net Mon Jan 20 20:43:40 2003 From: donjenl at swbell.net (jendonjenl ) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 20:43:40 -0000 Subject: Not Really SHIP: Ron and Harry Are Inconsiderate Idiots (Re: Ebony's Essay) In-Reply-To: <20030120071822.3069.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50191 Seems to me like Ron and Harry behave pretty typically for their ages. Adolescence is one of the most awkward, self-centered, thoughtless phases of life. Harry and Ron do pretty well, considering. I thought the Yule Ball absolutely crystallized the jr high school social experience. J From 05ajf at williams.edu Mon Jan 20 21:08:39 2003 From: 05ajf at williams.edu (itsbeenawhile7 <05ajf@williams.edu>) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 21:08:39 -0000 Subject: SHIP: That Darned Kiss--The Problem With Reading R/H in GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50192 First of all, I cannot agree more with what Ebony posted in her essay. I've always read those passages with the same exact frame of mind. The issues she brought up, plus some others that she only started to touch on are reasons why I think something's rotten in the land of Ron and Hermione. As I'm brand new to the HP fandom online, I apologize if this has been brought up here or on some other forum already. Ebony said: >>I also noticed that this is a bit before Ron's epiphany about >>Hermione, that "you are a girl." He makes no overt overtures of >>interest towards Hermione at or up to this point. I see no >>Hepburn/Tracy in miniature there. I see Ron being not very nice, >>and Hermione taking offense. This point in particular, that Ron makes no overtures of interest towards Hermione prior to the mess that begins with his observation that she is a girl is rather important to what's wrong with R/Hr as it currently stands. It would be one thing if the whole date thing made Ron recognize feelings he's had prior to this mess about Hermione--but it's quite another that this event *turns into* and in many ways *causes* his crush-like behavior and feelings through the latter sections of GoF. Sure, many argue that Ron's willingness to defend Hermione when Malfoy calls her a mudblood, etc. is evidence of feelings he has for her--but I can't see for a moment how anyone could see this as support for Ron crushing on her, as Ron reacts like this when *anyone* close to him is insulted--himself, Harry, or his family. One quick example I could find is below, though there are many others. ******** "Malfoy looked up at the crumbling house behind Ron. 'Suppose you'd love to live here, wouldn't you, Weasley? Dreaming about having your own bedroom? I heard your family all sleep in one room--is that true?' Harry seized the back of Ron's robes to stop him from leaping on Malfoy." (PoA, US version, p. 279) ******** Hermione is not receiving any special treatment. The only concrete emoting we get out of Ron comes after the initial confrontation about securing dates for the Yule Ball. I'd argue that the major reason Ron begins to develop crush-like feelings toward Hermione is not so much because he genuinely has fallen for her, as much as it's the result of his own confusion and frustration that grows out of this encounter. I don't think any of this would have come about at all had Hermione been available to Ron as a fallback. He's frustrated at this point at his own failure to secure a date and at Hermione's unwillingness to reveal her own date-- let me tell you, secrets of any kind at this age are *infuriating*. Ron is left out and overshadowed enough--it's clear he has issues about this, so it doesn't surprise me for a moment that Hermione's refusal to clue him into this makes him so upset. He becomes preoccupied with it. And preoccupation is often interpreted as liking someone, so it makes logical sense that Ron ends up with some Hermione confusion. Pippin mentioned in an earlier post (#50057, "Re: SHIP: JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging") that she believes Ron develops a resentment of Hermione "because she's becoming a woman, period. Ron would have been perfectly happy for her to stay one of the boys, and he resents her for changing," which I could not agree more with. Ron's forced to see things differently once Hermione reveals she's got a date of her own, and I think that up until then, he was possessive of her in the "she's MY friend" sort of way, failing to realize that she's going to have interests of her own, and not just be the fallback for him. This only adds to the overall confusion and frustration Ron experiences once he realizes that this just isn't the case. The entire scenario sets Ron up to develop confused feelings of possessiveness (among other things) that eventually turn into the crush-like feelings we see from Ron later on in GoF. I'm not a real big fan of this progression, nor do I feel there's anything deep and cemented involved with these emotions. Others have also pointed out and supported several times that Hermione does not reciprocate these feelings, so I won't repeat any of that. It all adds up to a not so secure picture of Ron and Hermione, regardless of what people seem to want to see. Sometimes, too, I wonder how much people underestimate the role of Krum in this whole mess. Prior to the Yule Ball and the revelation of Hermione's mystery date, Ron is only frustrated about not knowing who she's going with--it isn't until after the Yule Ball that he starts doing things like grinding his pestle into his desk. Ron is a jealous person, we know this--we've already seen what jealousy of Harry does to him earlier on in GoF. And I'm convinced that his jealousy of Krum and his accomplishments plays a major role in Ron's crushing on Hermione. Really, can you see Ron carrying on about all of this if Hermione had gone to the Yule Ball with Neville? Or Dean Thomas, etc.? Because I can't. I'm sure that Ron and Hermione are going to get tangled up with this in some level in the next book--whether JKR takes the currently one- sided confusion coming from Ron and pulls genuine emotion out of both he and Hermione to get them together, or simply lets Ron figure this whole frustration out on his own to conclude that he doesn't have deep feelings about Hermione remains to be seen (not that these are the only two possible outcomes of this mess). The bottom line is, the Ron/Hermione shippers who criticize Harry/Hermione shippers (or other shippers, for that matter) for basing their opinions on an "ideal" relationship and not on canonical evidence are actually felled by their own arguments. R/Hr shippers can rage on all they want about canon, but unless all they want out of Ron and Hermione's relationship is confused, crush-like frustration and misplaced possessive bickering, there is no evidence of a meaningful relationship, based on genuine and *primary* feelings (rather than secondary to a catalyst), for them. I'm not saying that JKR can't provide them later on, but right now, a Ron/Hermione relationship is based just as much on an "ideal" as a Harry/Hermione relationship. There is nothing cementing Ron and Hermione as *the* couple, nor is there anything cementing Ron's crush on Hermione. ~Alyssa From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Mon Jan 20 21:20:07 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:20:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: SHIP: The Four Loves: Why R/Hr is very much preferable to H/Hr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030120212007.64777.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50193 Weve been having a very interesting discussion on the OTC about the romantic paradigm, or couplethinking. For those who dont buy the criticisms voiced on the OTC of couplethinking, this post is not likely to make much sense. In that case, you might want to add your voice to the OTC discussion. If you do harbour grievances against couplethinking, though, this post aims to show that R/Hr is very much preferable to H/Hr, as the dynamics of that particular relationship are much more reflective of the realities we would like to seem emphasized in place of the romantic paradigm. The story begins with Elkins mentioning in passing that she hated shipping. She was asked to elaborate, and wrote a trenchant critique of what she termed couplethinking. In it, she talked about a romantic paradigm in our culture, in which the most important goal is held to be becoming a couple. That struck a note with many listies, especially those of us who are not in the least currently interested in finding a boyfriend, husband, what have you. Many examples were thrown outab of the cultural obsession with couplethinking: the belief that you cant be fulfilled outside of a sexual relationship, the term significant other meaning that non-sexual relationships arent significant?, the phrase just friends. Many of us agreed that the idea of friendship as one of the four loves is under attack today. Reading and participating in the discussion, I began to realize that one of the reasons I love the HP series is that friendship is very much one of the four loves here. In fact, so far, philos (friendship) and storge (affection) are the important loves of the Potterverse. People have sacrificed their lives for both. As Cindy pointed out recently, eros (sexual love) has yet to make a major thematic appearance and are there any hints of agape (charity) as a major theme? Perhaps by Book Seven, but right now, not really. But where there is not eros, someone will supply it. I blame the romantic paradigm for the fact that people have been shipping the trio since Book I. The most nauseating couplethinking is undertaken by nine year olds in the movie theatre who all go Awwww when Harry looks at Hermione, or Ron looks at Hermione. Im not pointing fingers here. As many of you know, I am a very rabid shipper. Why else am I here defending R/Hr? I just cant help but ship, no matter what they say about shipping. I think Ron and Hermione could live very happily together, and thats that. Or is it? Leaving the appropriateness of Ron and Hermione for each other aside, I think that R/Hr is also much better suited to the subversion of the romantic paradigm. Elkins has stated that she was disappointed to see any hint of eros entering the philos of the trios relationship. I was slightly startled and worried myself, at first, but I soon grew to very much like R/Hr and to root for it. And one of the reasons I like it so much is that it leaves the philos of Harry and Hermiones relationship completely untouched. You see, Harrys relationship with Hermione is to the reader much more important than Rons relationship with Hermione. In the end, as much as we like to talk about Avery, Snape, and Crouch, its all about Harry. What JKR would do by choosing R/Hr over H/Hr is giving primacy to the philos relationship over the eros relationship. Ron and Hermione will always be of paramount importance to Harry. He loves them both, and they love him, and that love is entirely untouched by eros. However, if H/Hr was to take place, the most important element of Harry and Hermiones relationship would be seen as eros. There would be the friendship between Ron and Harry, hopefully, though not surprisingly, many scenarios would put a severe strain on that friendship, but wed have lost the complete primacy of philos within the trios relationship. Eros between Ron and Hermione is a good thing, I think, simply because eros is important, however damaging couplethinking is, and Im quite happy to see them a couple, as long as they dont cut themselves off from Harry (and everyone else) as a result of it. I dont see JKR doing this. So, R/Hr can stand as an example of eross compatibility with philos within a larger group. Possibly, H/Hr could as well, but, as Ive pointed out, in the H/Hr situation, eros would not at all be subordinate to philos, even if compatible with it. Again, if you frankly dont care about this, if the idea of eros being of the same importance as philos within the trio does not appall you, pay this no attention, but consider this an explanation of the deep down reasons that Im R/Hr rather than H/Hr. Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From selah_1977 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 21:57:42 2003 From: selah_1977 at yahoo.com (Ebony ) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 21:57:42 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Rowling=92s_Red_Flag_(Was:_SHIP:_That_Darned_Kiss--The_Problem_With_Reading_R/H_in?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50194 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "errolowl " wrote: > To quote Ebony again, if slightly out of order, > >>It was about *Hermione*--Hermione and the way she views herself as > an emerging young woman.<< Yeah, that's my take on it, Errol. I have to agree with Jim Ferer's *excellent* post, when he said that Hermione has developed as a character more than the boys have in a manner of speaking. I think I agree... we've had a lot of Hermione-development in PoA and GoF... and in GoF, some of it was completely tangential to the main plot of what Harry was going through. So if she's not faded into the background in OotP, I'll still wrinkle my forehead and wonder. Even if we see more in the way of beginning R/H. > Red Flag Scenario #3: The Harry POV: > > Maybe this flag has less to do with Hermione than to do with Harry. > Ron is a given for `the typical teenage guy' who can't figure out his > own mind. Now how is Harry different? We see the entire world from > Harry's POV, *this phrase included*. It's not Rowling narrating for > our benefit, its not Hermione making a decision, but it's *Harry* who > suddenly notices here that it's something that Hermione hasnever done > before. Why? You know, I've never thought of it this way before. Now I'll have to dig up GoF again and see why my overall thought of the past three years is that Harry doesn't notice Hermione much. Considering how much we know about her character, that can't be completely correct. Of course, this could all be overspeculation, and Rowling could have just stuck in that phrase at random. Can't wait for June 21! --Eb From jmmears at comcast.net Mon Jan 20 22:02:23 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust ) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 22:02:23 -0000 Subject: Ron and Harry Are Inconsiderate Idiots In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50195 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z " wrote: > Calliope wrote: > > > I can't find a time when Ron is actually nice to Neville. Ever. I > wish I > > could. If someone does, please share it. Amy wrote: > GF12: > > "I'll just have to--ooops . . . " > > Neville's foot had sunk right thorugh a step halfway up the > staircase. There were many of these trick stairs at Hogwarts; it was > secong nature to most of the older students to jump this particular > step, but Neville's memory was notoriously poor. Harry and Ron > seized him under the armpits and pulled him out, while a suit of > armour at th etop of the stairs creaked and clanked, laughing > wheezily. > > "Shut it, you," said Ron, banging down its visor as they passed. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > It's one of my favorite Ron moments. Being kind, but in a > characteristically brusque and indirect way. > > Incidentally, it also shows JKR's plotting genius at work. "The Egg > and the Eye" would have seem contrived if she hadn't cleverly > reminded us about the trick stair several chapters earlier, and shown > us that when you step onto it, you're good and stuck until someone > helps you out. *shakes head in admiration* Now me: GoF Chapter 11 Neville listened jealously to the others' conversations they relived the Cup match. "Gran didn't want to go," he said miserably. "Wouldn't buy tickets. It sounded amazing, though." "It was," said Ron. "Look at this, Neville..." He rummaged in his trunk up in the luggage rack and pulled out the miniature figure of Viktor Krum. "Oh wow," said Neville enviously as Ron tipped Krum onto his pudgy hand. "We saw him right up close, as well," said Ron. "We were in the Top Box.." Ron's obviously making an effort to include Neville in the discussion, even though he was the only one unable to go to the World Cup. We don't see anyone else bothering to make Neville feel as if he's not entirely left out. Also(echoing Amy Z's sentiments), Rowling uses this as another opportunity to reinforce Ron's admiration for Krum, and his pride in owning the figure of him. This makes his later jealousy even more poignant when Harry finds the tiny arm broken off. She's really a master at sewing everything together seamlessly. Jo Serenadust, who doesn't like shipping wars, but is happy to defend Ron From selah_1977 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 22:04:25 2003 From: selah_1977 at yahoo.com (Ebony ) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 22:04:25 -0000 Subject: Ron asking Fleur + other question was Re: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: The Yule Brawl--The Problem With Reading R/H in GoF In-Reply-To: <1688606317.20030120111724@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50196 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > My daughter also felt sorry for her, because other kids > disliked her for attracting boys easily. > She thought it was mean, since Fleur didn't pick her > heritage and can't turn this "feature" on and off at will > (or can she, and we missed that?) LOL! Oh, that's so cute! Anyway, I just thought of something. Doesn't Hermione seem a bit like the anti-Fleur to you? And yet for all their differences, they have something in common. She's attracting boys (Krum, Ron, perhaps even Neville), but it's not because of something in her "heritage"... it's because of her own personal merits. So I suppose there's something that unites the two different kinds of archetypal girl you see in the story. Something more to think about... --Eb From selah_1977 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 22:13:16 2003 From: selah_1977 at yahoo.com (Ebony ) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 22:13:16 -0000 Subject: Ron and Neville (was Re: Ron and Harry Are Inconsiderate Idiots) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50197 Okay, Amy Z mentioned the trick stair incident... And Jo mentions Ron's including Neville in the World Cup discussions... ...however... (and you knew this was coming!) All that stuff happens *before* the sections of GoF I analyzed. In my essay, I said that I was empathetic towards Ron prior to mid- GoF. That is why my analysis *began at the Yule Ball*. I don't hate Ron as a character (I'll address Amy's points in my next post), but neither do I think he's being fair in any of those sections. And you guys brought up all the old fallback "they're just 14!" arguments again. Sigh. --weary!Eb From cindysphynx at comcast.net Mon Jan 20 22:29:31 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C. ) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 22:29:31 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Fourth Man Takes A Dive Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50198 Cindy picked her way along the deserted strand of beach, dodging bits of seaweed that had washed ashore and clutching her cap against the blasts of wind. She could feel the sandy grit between her teeth as she squinted into the sun. Most of the other captains busied themselves shoring up their theories for the approaching storm -- mending sails, varnishing decks, polishing canons. As the Big Bang Destroyer was already Hurricane proof -? the only such vessel on the Bay, in fact ?- Cindy tended to spend her afternoons patrolling the beach, offering unsolicited advice to captains of more vulnerable vessels. She veered to the south and after a short while was relieved to find herself in an isolated cove sheltered from the howling winds. "Welcome to Ambush Cove!" read a battered signpost. Cindy leaned closer and squinted at the peeling black letters. "Beware sharp rocks!" "No lifeguard!" "Wicked undertow!" "Jellyfish hazard!" "Have a nice day!" Cindy stopped suddenly in her tracks, her mouth slightly open. There, flipped over onto its side in the sand lay the once-mighty Fourth Man hovercraft, which hadn't been glimpsed in the Bay in months! Tethered to it was an expanse of blue tarp, which stretched across the beach to form a makeshift lean-to. The tarp flapped violently, threatening to catapult the heavy rocks that anchored it to the beach. *Squatters!* Cindy thought. How many times have I told Elkins that she needs to take care of her vessel? You leave a high-quality vessel like this out here unattended, and someone will hijack it *every* time, she muttered to herself. Cindy armed herself with a long, gnarled stick and, tip-toeing carefully, sneaked up to the tarp and jammed the stick inside, swinging wildly. "All right, you squatters!" she yelled, "Get outta that hovercraft before -?" "*OUCH!* Hey! Knock it off!" "Who -- " Cindy stammered, peering around the edge of the tarp and dropping her stick in shock and disbelief. "Elkins, is that *you*?" "Of *course,* it's me," Elkins snapped. "Who on earth were you expecting?" "I . . . you -? you're *living* in the hovercraft?" Cindy's eyes took in a worn sleeping bag, two lanterns, a tottering stack of empty C.R.A.B.C.U.S.TA.R.D. cups and a soggy pile of dictionaries. "I most certainly am. You got a problem with that?" "Elkins," Cindy said urgently, "you'll never survive Hurricane Jo in this place!" She struggled to pull Elkins to her feet. "Come with me. You can't live here. Let me set you up on the Big Bang. We have a brand new Shipping wing where you can try ?-" "I'm not doing any Shipping," Elkins spat. "I like it right here on Fourth Man. Why should I leave? Give me one good reason why I should leave?" "Elkins, you don't even have electricity! You can't live without electricity." "Electricity is overrated," Elkins countered. She stopped suddenly, her eyes wide. "Oh, goodness! Where are my manners? I should offer you something to drink. Let's see. I'm fresh out of Kool- Aid ?-" "Really, I don't need ?-" "?- but I can offer you some water. I fetched it from that ditch over there. I boiled it myself," Elkins said, beaming with pride. "Er . . . ." Cindy faltered, trying to think of a polite response. "Tell you what. I'll buy you a drink over at George's place. You remember George, don't you?" Elkins' eyes narrowed to slits, and she nodded curtly. "Oh, I remember that -? yes, I know him." "Great! Let's get going, and I'll catch you up on the way. Don't worry," Cindy said, glancing around at the piles of odds and ends Elkins had collected, "I don't think anyone will make off with your, uh, furnishings while we're gone." Elkins followed Cindy out of the Cove, and they leaned into the wind as they trudged over the ridge toward town. "Elkins," Cindy said after a few minutes, "there is a very good reason why you need to abandon the hovercraft. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I've found some canon that renders Fourth Man unseaworthy. And you do not want to be in a vessel like that with Hurricane Jo on its way." "There is nothing wrong with Fourth Man," Elkins said defensively. "Mmmm," Cindy murmured. This was not going to be easy. Elkins had never been one to convert to a new theory without a fight. In fact, Elkins had never been one to convert to a new theory *at all.* "All right. Let's review Fourth Man. The whole idea is that Avery is the Fourth Man in the Pensieve in GoF, right? If I'm remembering the theory properly ?- and do correct me if I have it wrong -? there are several reasons for this." Cindy held up her hand and began to tick off the points with her fingers. "First, you think it is curious that Avery has a name and not a face, and the fourth man in the Pensieve has a face and not a name. "Second, the text seems to go out of its way to draw the reader's attention to Avery, he alone of the Death Eaters has no other connection to the plot: the details of his past crimes are left unspecified, he has no known children at Hogwarts, the reader has never even heard his name mentioned before GoF. "Third, in Avery's one canonical appearance, Avery is not only masked, but also goes completely physically undescribed; even his normal speaking voice is obscured. Avery has a name, but neither a face nor a role; the Fourth Man has both a face and a role, but no name." "So JKR is setting up Avery as a Supremely Evil if SYCOPHANTish Death Eater! Ergo 'Fourth Man,'" Elkins finished proudly. "Right. You've got it. Not only that, it is clear that Avery will be the cornerstone for most of the major plot developments in --" "Whoa! Whoa! Not so fast," Cindy said. "Let's start from the beginning. Who are all of the known characters who could possibly be Fourth Man." "Well," Elkins said thoughtfully. "There really aren't all that many people who would qualify. I mean, we know Fourth Man is a DE, and that narrows it down quite a lot. So the list of suspects -? that is, other than Crouch Jr. and Mrs. and Mr. Lestrange -? are Lucius Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, Avery, MacNair, Rookwood, Wormtail, Dolohov, Rosier, Wilkes, Karkaroff, Mulciber, Nott and Travers." She shot Cindy a sharp look. "Hey, that's a pretty long list, isn't it? How are we going to narrow things down when half of those characters don't even have *dialogue*?" "We use the process of elimination, that's how," Cindy assured her, walking more briskly now as George's Tavern came into view. "First, we know that Harry sees Fourth Man's face in the Pensieve, but he doesn't identify him to the reader or appear to recognize him. That suggests that Fourth Man is not someone Harry already knows from the first three books or anything that happened in GoF before that point." "That makes sense," Elkins said, nodding. "OK, then. That rules out Malfoy, Wormtail, MacNair, and Karkaroff. But that still leaves a lot of possibilities," Elkins said doubtfully, her brow knitted. "Right. But we can rule out a few others. We know that the Pensieve Four received a life sentence, so anyone who is walking around free can't be one of the Pensieve Four. That means anyone who apparated to the graveyard is out ?- unless we are specifically told that the DE was pardoned or escaped or something." "So that takes care of Nott, Crabbe and Goyle," Elkins agreed. "That leaves Avery, Rookwood, Dolohov, Rosier, Wilkes, Mulciber, and Travers. That's still a pretty big group. We haven't made much progress with this approach." "Oh, but we have!" Cindy cried. "We know Rosier and Wilkes were killed by aurors, so they're out. So we're down to Avery, Rookwood, Dolohov, Mulciber, and Travers." "It *has* to be Avery then," Elkins declared. "Sirius says Crouch Jr. was caught with a group of DEs 'who'd managed to talk their way out of Azkaban.' We know Avery 'wormed his way out of trouble by saying he'd been acting under the Imperius Curse,' so I figure --" "No, see, that's a real problem," Cindy broke in. "It doesn't add up. This has always bothered me about Avery as Fourth Man. I mean, if he talked his way out of Azkaban once claiming he was under the Imperius Curse and then attacked the Longbottoms, how on earth can he claim he acted under Imperius a second time? That's your 'Double Worm Theory' from Message 35,187 that Avery wormed his way out of trouble not just once but *twice* in the space of a few months, using the Imperius Curse defense both times. "Just how gullible is Crouch Sr. supposed to be, anyway? Crouch Sr. is *way* too smart to release Avery a second time like that. No, it just plain doesn't work." "Well," Elkins folded her arms across her chest. "None of the other suspects works any better, you know." "Oh, there are some possibilities." Cindy pulled hard on the ancient oak door to George's Tavern and was greeted with a blast of heated air as she and Elkins entered. There were a couple of Shippers huddled at a table in the corner, but otherwise, the place was deserted. "You?" George said, glancing nervously at Elkins. "And *YOU*!" he cried, turning his attention toward Cindy. "Oh, this is *not* going to be a good night, is it?" "Take it easy, George," Cindy assured him. "We'll behave. I promise. No vandalism, no violence, nothing broken. Scout's honor!" she said brightly, raising three fingers into the air. George heaved a labored sigh and, with a pained expression, began putting the better glassware under the counter for safekeeping. "What'll it be, then?" Elkins considered. "I'll have a Tidal Wave," she said after a moment. "Equal parts of 151 Rum, Captain Morgan and Vodka with just a splash of Sour Mix and Cranberry Juice," George recited in a lifeless tone. "Shall we make it two?" "Uh, I guess," Cindy said doubtfully, perching on her stool and gesturing Elkins to do the same. "OK, where were we?" Cindy asked as George produced two frothy, pink drinks. "Oh, yeah. Avery, Rookwood, Dolohov, Mulciber, and Travers are left." Elkins took a sizable gulp of her drink, shuddered slightly, and fixed her gaze on Cindy. "So how are we supposed to figure out who makes the best Fourth Man?" "Well," Cindy began. "We have to think about how Voldemort uses his DEs. We don't know much about this, I admit. But we know enough. "First of all, it is common for readers to say that Voldemort is stupid. And like all the Evil Overlords ever written, Voldemort does make his share of mistakes. But he does a lot of things right, too. After all, he outsmarted Dumbledore completely in GoF, and he went from vapor to slimy baby without much help at all. Although he got the short end of the stick in the graveyard, he has his body back and is as powerful as ever, poised to take over the world. "We know Voldemort does smart things like make sure none of his DEs know the identities of all of his other DEs. Another smart thing Voldemort does is have his DEs specialize. As we all know, it is efficient to have your underlings learn to do one thing and do it well. This is canonical ? look at Mulciber: 'he specialized in the Imperius Curse, forced countless people to do horrific things!'" "Yeah, but Mulciber is the only DE who has a specialty," Elkins observed. "I'm not so sure about that. Let's take a look at Wormtail. Does he have a specialty? Well, there are three Unforgivable Curses. How many have we seen Wormtail use?" "He killed Cedric with Avada Kedavra." "That he did, that he did," Cindy nodded cheerfully. "He also blew up the street and killed all those muggles. "On the other hand, have we ever seen Wormtail use the Imperius Curse or the Cruciatus Curse? No, we have not. He didn't use Imperius on Bertha Jorkins, and if there were ever a time for the Imperius Curse, that was it. But no. Instead, according to Voldemort, Wormtail "display[ed] a presence of mind I would never have expected from him . . . convinced Bertha Jorkins to accompany him on a nighttime stroll. He overpowered her." "That doesn't sound like Imperius," George said quietly. "No, it doesn't, does it?" Cindy agreed. "In fact, we know that Wormtail wasn't able to keep Crouch Sr. under the Imperius Curse. Crouch Jr. tells us that 'Wormtail neglected his duty. He was not watchful enough.' Keeping Crouch Sr. under Imperius was a job way too big for Wormtail, that was the problem. As a matter of fact, we've never seen Wormtail hurl the Cruciatus Curse, either. Canon is explicit that Voldemort, not Wormtail, tortured Bertha Jorkins. And the reason we don't see Wormtail perform Imperius or Cruciatus is that Wormtail is a *Killing Machine* ?- an Avada Kedavra specialist if I ever saw one," Cindy finished. "Well, we already eliminated Wormtail as Fourth Man anyway," Elkins said, one eyebrow arched. "Ah, but once we know that DEs specialize in various Unforgivable Curses, then we can get somewhere with this," Cindy said. "What do we know about the others -- Rookwood, Dolohov, Mulciber and Travers? "If Mulciber specialized in Imperius, we can rule him out as having tortured the Longbottoms, can't we?" Cindy continued. "And as Moody's interrogation and imprisonment in his own trunk suggests, Imperius can be used to force someone to divulge information. If Mulciber were one of the Pensieve Four, then he would have used Imperius to find out that Frank and his wife didn't know Voldemort's whereabouts. So there was no need to resort to torture." Cindy beckoned George to freshen her drink. "Mulciber is out." "OK. What about Travers?" "Another AK specialist," Cindy replied confidently. "Karkarov says 'There was Travers ?- he helped murder the McKinnons!'" "Rookwood?" George interjected. "Hard to say with Rookwood," Cindy said slowly, rubbing her chin. "All we know about Rookwood is that he was with the Department of Mysteries, 'was a spy, and passed He-Who-Must-Not-Be- Named useful information from inside the Ministry itself' and 'used a network of well-placed wizards, both inside the Ministry and out, to collect information ?' "There's not a lot to go on with Rookwood," Cindy said, "but he sounds more like an information specialist than a Cruciatus specialist to me. Not a field guy who gets his hands dirty with things like garden-variety torture, I'm thinking. In any event, there's surely no canon to suggest that Rookwood knows how to cast the Cruciatus spell." Elkins downed the last of her drink. "Which brings us to Dolohov," she said with a twisted smile. "Right. Dolohov," Cindy repeated. "Karkarov really has the goods on Dolohov, doesn't he?" George produced a stained copy of GoF and passed it to Cindy, who opened it to the Pensieve scene. "'There was Antonin Dolohov,' he said. 'I?I saw him torture countless Muggles and -? and non- supporters of the Dark Lord.'" Cindy closed the book with a snap. "Dolohov didn't just cast the Cruciatus Curse one time, did he? No, he hurled that Curse 'countless' times. And Karkarov is very specific, isn't he? He suggests that Dolohov is quite expert at torturing Muggles and Wizards alike." "Hang on," George said. "What about the most loyal DE of them all, Crouch Jr.?" Elkins sat bolt upright at the very mention of Crouch Jr.'s name, her eyes wide with excitement. "Exactly! Crouch Jr. isn't a specialist! He can cast all three Unforgivable Curses, and we saw him do it with the spiders. That *destroys* your whole theory, doesn't it?" "Not quite," Cindy said easily. "Crouch Jr. tortures spiders all right, that's true. "But we never once see him cast any Unforgivable Curse on a wizard other than the Imperius Curse. He puts Imperius on Real Moody. He puts Imperius on Harry. He puts Imperius on Harry's classmates. He puts Imperius on Krum rather than fire Cruciatus on Cedric himself. We don't even know what curse Crouch Jr. was about to hurl to dispatch Harry ?- it might not have been AK, and if it was, it might not have worked. We also don't know how exactly Crouch Jr. killed his father -? he only tells us that he 'killed [his] father.' "Is casting an Unforgivable Curse more difficult if the victim is a wizard? Well, common sense and canon suggest that it is. Karkaroff draws a distinction between torturing Muggles and Wizards when he explains Dolohov's proficiency with Cruciatus. So the fact that Crouch Jr. could torture and murder lowly spiders doesn't mean that he was proficient at all three Unforgivable Curses. "Besides, we know that some wizards are better at throwing off the Imperius Curse than others ?- suggesting the enormity of the task varies depending on the victim. This enjoys a firm basis in canon, if you think about it. When the students are learning a new skill in Transfiguration, what do they practice on? Bugs and small animals, that's what! So the fact that Crouch Jr. can have his way with small insects does not prove that he could cast AK or Cruciatus. No, Crouch Jr. was most definitely an Imperius specialist, I think." "So we're down to Double-Worm Avery as Fourth Man or we have CruciatusSpecialist!Dolohov. Now what?" Elkins asked with a note of concern in her voice. "I think," Cindy replied, "that the answer lies in the graveyard scene itself:" ************* "I confess myself disappointed . . . . " One of the men suddenly flung himself forward, breaking the circle. Trembling from head to foot, he collapsed at Voldemort's feet. "Master!" he shrieked, "Master, forgive me! Forgive us all!" "Crucio!" The Death Eater on the ground writhed and shrieked . . . ." *************** "So?" George asked. "So," Cindy replied evenly, "that's the biggest problem with FourthMan!Avery! The Pensieve Four are the only DEs who tried to find Voldemort. They were loyal. They ought to be treated like heroes, right? "So if Avery were one of the Pensieve Four, he would *never* behave like he does in the graveyard. He wouldn't beg forgiveness. He'd step forward and say, 'Master *I* tried to find you! I tortured that miserable Frank Longbottom such that he'll never trouble anyone again!' "But beg forgiveness? Fourth Man *beg forgiveness?* Fourth Man has nothing to apologize for. So Avery cannot be Fourth Man. "And that, my friends," Cindy gulped the last of her drink, "means that we have a competing Fourth Man theory on our hands -- FourthManCruciatusSpecialist!Dolohov." There was a long and very awkward silence. The logs in the fireplace crackled and hissed as drops of rainwater dribbled down the floo. "Another round?" George asked finally. "I think I'll pass," Elkins said quietly, resting her head heavily in her hands. "I'd better keep a clear mind right about now." ************ Cindy ****************** Hypothetic Alley: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/hypotheticalley.html Inish Alley: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database? method=reportRows&tbl=13 From selah_1977 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 22:31:35 2003 From: selah_1977 at yahoo.com (Ebony ) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 22:31:35 -0000 Subject: Real characters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50199 Oh, Amy. :) --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z " wrote: > Ebony's post, and more especially Eileen's follow-up trashing Ron > *and* Harry, made me think about how we tend to chew up characters if they are less than perfect. We're like the Donner Party at this > point. After two and a half years without fresh meat, we're reduced to cannibalism--not eating each other but munching on the characters we've got stashed in the hold. > See, that's why I hesitated to post my essay here... it's a month old, and I'd wanted to begin discussion on it, but I just *knew* that someone would say this. (Examines notches from ship debates past.) If anyone thinks this, please know that you can search the archives and find me critiquing Ron as early as December 2000. So this is nothing new for me. :-) Save for all the new revelations which I've flagged, I've *always* read those scenes that way. The essay was less me trying to justify why I ship the way I do to others as it was me explaining what I'm reading in detail. Note "critiquing". I am by no means in favor of "bashing" Ron. I think I bowed and scraped enough with the disclaimers in my essay... I can pull out all the places where I did. Anyway, who wants to talk about perfect characters? It is precisely *and* primarily because there were things in GoF that bothered me that I wanted to talk about them with others and I searched online until I found adult fans of the series. > Ron isn't just a kid with a bit of a temper, a > sarcastic tongue, and lazy study habits; he's stupid, mean, and > incompetent. Hmm. This isn't my view of Ron by a long shot. I'd say he's growing resentful, which is leading to this meanness. I think he is falling behind the other two. I do think that he's got some weaknesses, but then again, so do the other two. > I do think, however, that JKR has created very nuanced characters. I agree. > And yet sometimes we write about complex > characters the way young readers talk about Hermione: "She's so > bossy," they say, and hate her, not noticing that there is a lot more > to Hermione than that and that the author unquestionably intends her > to be interesting, likeable, and admirable (if not perfect). Again, come on. My essay wasn't entitled "A Complete Analysis of Ron Weasley in GoF", or "The Importance of Being Ron Weasley in the Harry Potter Series". The essay was about why *I* have trouble reading R/H in GoF. I do not see what many others see, even after trying very hard to see it (which I did, at least for the first 6 months after GoF came out). Why would I point out all of Ron's very good characteristics in an essay in which I am speaking about why I do not like the idea of him with Hermione, when such evidence is tangential to the topic? Unless I'm supposed to worry unduly much about the finer feelings of Ron fans? Sorry. > I know I'm echoing what many have said when I say that I love most of these characters *because* they're imperfect. And you know what? I write and obsess about Ron *because* in the first two books I loved him so much. Perhaps it was just reader shock to realize that I was losing sympathy for a character that initially I liked better than anyone else in the series after Harry. So my writing an essay like mine means that I don't love the characters? I just don't get it. Why would I spend that much time and effort on something I do not love? Sigh. I am sure that in OotP, we will see that, as you say, "Ron is a real kid, flawed and complex, which makes it possible to swallow his incredible courage and loyalty and believe that he could be that funny on such a consistent basis." I hope he gets a subplot of his own that is semi-independent from Harry's, and that has nothing to do with the cliche of romance. > So I laugh at subjects like "Ron and Harry are Inconsiderate Idiots," > and even write posts with such titles myself, but really, I get sad > when we start to devour the characters who give us such wonderful > images of ourselves and other real people we know. Fortunately, a > truckload of food arrives in five months. Why sad? Just take a breather, like I do. Then come back and enjoy the feast! --Eb, sad that her essay was taken the wrong way From suzloua at hotmail.com Mon Jan 20 21:29:22 2003 From: suzloua at hotmail.com (Susan Atherton) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 21:29:22 -0000 Subject: Snape as past/future spy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50200 "isiscolo wrote: Why, oh why, does just about everyone assume that Snape *will be* a spy in later books? I mean, is there some indication of this (other than the mysterious task mentioned at the end of GoF), or has JKR dropped hints? I read Lord V's "one who has left me forever" comment to mean that he *knows* that Snape is no longer a DE. I believe that Snape *was* a spy in the past, in between being active DE and being Hogwarts teacher (or at least during beginning of his tenure. I can't see Snape as a *future* spy, because I believe that Voldemort is fully aware of where his loyalty lies." Me: I've always thought that myself. When I first read GoF, I immediately assumed that "The one who is too cowardly to return" is Karkaroff, who is a wuss and a KNOWN DE; that "The one who has left me forever" is Snape, who is ALSO a known DE and has indeed left V forever (is it just me or are you wetting yourself wondering what Snape did with his first chance?); and "My most faithful DE who has already re-entered my service" is Barty Jr, who is again, a KNOWN DE. I really don't understand why everyone tries to bring everyone from Ludo Bagman to Amos Diggory into it, because you already have enough people who were definitely DE's, and presumably worth a mention - the traitorous Karkaroff, the turncoat Snape, and the faithful Crouch - to fill the criteria. Anyway, I digress - not sure where that came from at all :) As I was saying, I believe LV does indeed know that Snape is perma-good ~waves hi to all the LOLLIPOPS shippers~ and that Snape IS in fact perma-good. And the obvious thing from one who read that bit alone (the whole "You know what I must ask of you" bit) knowing Snape's background would immediately assume, as I did, that Snape is off to spy. And then I remembered I was reading a book written by Joanne Rowling. When was the last time JKR dropped an obvious hint that turned out to be true? When was the last time ANY of us guessed the mystery solution before we were told? I certainly didn't guess about QuirrelMort, about RiddleMort, about Sirius' innocence, or about Fake!Moody right up to where Harry finds out, and looking back there were PLENTY of clues about it all. She concentrates on red herrings and glosses over the real clues with such skill that even by GoF, when I'd realised all the books end in mysteries as much as anything else and was actively looking for clues, I didn't realise about Moody until Harry's in his office, about half a page before it was confirmed (and me, ME, a long-time Agatha Christie-ite. Shoddy workmanship on my part, I think :) ) So as it stands, I don't have the slightest clue what Snape's been doing all summer, but like the way that Evil!Dumbledore from the gleam is just a bit too obvious, a bit too easy to figure out, I really don't see Snape as a spy. Mind you, I didn't see Quirrel as the two-faced type, so what do I know?! Susan who is sighing because she'd really been hoping for a late April release on OotP ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Despite constant warnings, you never meet anyone who's had their arm broken by a swan. Men are very like slinkys; a bit pointless but fun to watch fall down stairs. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From DrJuliaH at aol.com Mon Jan 20 22:32:50 2003 From: DrJuliaH at aol.com (DrJuliaH at aol.com) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 17:32:50 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The REAL Reason Snape's Hair Is Greasy! Message-ID: <169.1978dfff.2b5dd312@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50201 In a message dated 1/19/2003 9:46:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, susannahlm at yahoo.com writes: > And, I mean, it doesn't have to be reaction to Lily's untimely death, > if you don't like that sort of thing. It could be reaction to his > time as a DE, or as a spy, or because he's SOULSUCKED SNAPE. > Whatever. > > So maybe I should revise that. > > 5. He just doesn't care, and why would he, after [insert trauma of > choice]? > Here goes... my first post. This is one daunting group, I must say. Snape most certainly does care. The example that instantly popped into my mind is when he reminded Dumbledore of how Black was capable of attempted murder at 16 years old. He's clearly not over that by any stretch of the imagination. If he was just a shell of a man, so to speak, wouldn't he be more inclined to assume that the fact that Black tried to kill him was important to no one but Snape, and therefore it would be pointless to mention it? Perhaps he doesn't care about his appearance. But I don't even know if I'd agree with that. His style is out of step with everyone else, perhaps, but it is calculated for something... to make him intimidating to children? I do believe he's mighty cynical and very likely has plenty of regrets, but I don't think that's what makes his hair greasy... Sandy DrJuliaH at aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Mon Jan 20 23:06:46 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 18:06:46 EST Subject: Jobs Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50202 Maria asks; > >>So... any ideas for where else they can work *to earn money*? Death-eating > and 'taking a year off to get some first-hand experience at DADA' do not > count!<< > > Very sound reasoning that the only real job opportunities are in either the MoM or in the wizarding world's "service economy". But there are at least a few other options. One can join the cabal (Which I am convinced exists) of wizarding "importers" and deal in comodities from the Muggle world. (Wizards may often have their own vegetable gardens, but I doubt they grow their own wheat and grind their own flour. And most staple comodities are more cheaply produced by Muggles.) Or, one can take an aprenticship and learn a wizarding craft. Ultimately working in a crafts shop producing the sort of inherently magical products which are sold in the shops of Diagon Alley, Hogsmeade and other wizarding specialty stores. The wizarding world also has a considerable publishing industry, if the different publishing house names on the various books we've come across in canon are anything to go by. There is also the Daily Prophet, and various magazines, like Witch Weekly which seem to be in wide circulation. Someone has to create content for them, as well as handle the production and distribution. There is at least a rudimentary entertainment industry, although the Wizarding Wireless may be ru by the MoM. And that "service industry" is prettry extensive, too. I would suspect that St. Mungo's employs rather a lot of people in a full range of capacities. Overall I'd say that the Wizarding world has an economy that resembles a rather skewed version of the middle or late 18th century (which was certainly viable and self-sustaining) with a heavy, and more recent overlay of 20th century style bureauocracy in its regulations and priveliges. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Mon Jan 20 23:06:50 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 18:06:50 EST Subject: The Yule Brawl/Ron -- and Hermione, too Message-ID: <102.24363cac.2b5ddb0a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50203 I very much enjoyed Ebony's disection of the interdynamics of the HRH trio during the Yule Ball sequence of GoF. And I agree. This apparant shift in Ron's character is not something that is just going to go away. My own diagnosis is that the kid is reacting very badly to puberty and it wouldn't be going at all too far to say that he is suffering from some level of "testosterone poisoning". And his upbringing as the youngest of six brothers hasn't given him much resistence to it. He is clearly acting out all the very worst cultural stereotypes of expected-or-at-least-tolerated male behaviour. Given time, he will almost certainly grow out of the worst of it. He did have a good upbringing in a good family with decent values. But we are going to have to suffer through the next couple of years along with his classmates. And I quite confidently predict that we will want to smack him upside the head on a regular basis over the next two books. I suspect that we won't get much of a glimpse of the engaging youngster that we all liked so much in PS/CoS until fairly late in book 6. He may gradually re-emerge through book 7. And no SHIP that he tries to sign on with in the interim is going to last. (Nor should it.) For the record; I think that Hermione *did* fancy Ron on the train to Hogwarts in their first year. Which is why she pestered him so much in her oh-so-inept way right up until his comments (which at the time were probably fair enough -- no one *did* much like her at that point) drove her into the loo to cry through the Halloween Feast. After the three of them became friends, this sort of try-it-on-for-size faux "romance" did not have enough ground to sustain itself in the face of a genuine friendship. I think that at that point, if Hermione was going to fall in love with anything it was with and honest-to-ghod-right-here-in-your-face adventure, not some vague culturally sanctioned notions of romance. Hermione likes taking actions that *matter*. And she's bright enough to be able to see the difference between things that *do* matter and things that her culture is only claiming *ought* to, because she's female. Since then, Hermione has looked outside the trio for any exercise of "romance" scenarios. After the Lockhart fiasco (a hard lesson when you're 13) if she has been harboring any sort of fancies in that line, I think may have been nursing a crush on Remus Lupin. (Whose secret she protected for several months, not even hinting of it to her two best friends -- although if the three of them hadn't been at loggerheads over the Crookshanks/Scabbers/Firebolt incidents for much of the year, this may not have been the case.) So far, the indication is that she is the kind of student who gets crushes on teachers, rather than schoolmates. But this may also simply mean that she went through this stage earlier and more quietly than Ron is managing to do. By fourth year, she seems to be emerging from this stage of development. Although it is also possible that this didn't so much change as to be set on the back burner. Crouch/Moody was not a desirable crush object, and helping Harry survive the tournement and liberating the house elves had higher priority. The Skeeter articles made a fine irritation and counterincentive as well. She is no longer the socially inept little girl she was in PS. She's grown up a lot, and Harry hasn't noticed, so the reader hasn't had this pointed out to him.There is no indication that Hermione formed any sort of "crush" on Viktor Krum. Instead, she seems quite genuinely to have *liked* him, accepted him exactly as he was and felt flattered by the fact that a wizard of his prominence had deliberately sought her out. If Kurm does return to England after their 4th year. I suspect he may very well remain in the picture for a while, although I seriously doubt that Hermione is going to settle down permanently with anyone that she dated while she was still in school. Or, not without a decent interval of several years between the two points. She really doesn't seem that type at all. And if she does end up marrying a Weasley, JKR is going to have to tap dance pretty skillfully to make the match seem plausible if the Weasley turns out to be Ron. Bill or Percy seem a good deal better candidates. At least at this point in the story arc. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Mon Jan 20 23:07:21 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants ) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 23:07:21 -0000 Subject: Real characters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50204 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z " wrote: > Ebony's post, and more especially Eileen's follow-up trashing Ron > *and* Harry, made me think about how we tend to chew up characters if > they are less than perfect. We're like the Donner Party at this > point. After two and a half years without fresh meat, we're reduced > to cannibalism--not eating each other but munching on the characters > we've got stashed in the hold. Well, there's only so much time you can spend going, "Wow, Harry was really heroic, standing up to Voldemort in the graveyard like that!" or "Gosh, isn't it noble of Lupin to retain his decency and compassion in the face of all that prejudice!" People's vices make for more interesting conversation than their virtues, as anyone who's ever gossiped in real life will tell you. :-) Of course, now that we've been rehashing the same damn set of flaws for three years, it does take on a one-dimensional flavor, no matter how many times we add the PACMAN disclaimer. Perfectly angelic character do make for crappy reading, yes, but so do a bunch of worthless jerks. JKR has skillfully avoided falling into either trap when she wrote the books, and hopefully we can avoid falling into the same traps when we discucss them. Painting Ron and Harry as a couple of insensitive gits is just as simplistic as painting them as a couple of perfect saints. Maybe *that's* the real reason for Snape's popularity. His flaws are so numerous and varied that we're only just now beginning to exhaust them; and while he is shown to have positive and even heroic qualities, he's still presented as an unlikable antagonist in the books, so we can bash him without the nagging guilt that comes with bashing a character we know the author intends us to like. As for Ron and Harry's behavior toward Neville, I find it consistent with the way I've seen most normal (meaning neither especially saintly nor especially horrible) teenage boys will behave toward a basically decent but totally uncool peer: they're nice to him when he's in immediate, visible distress (like the trick step or Malfoy's Leg-locker curse), but they don't take him seriously or want to be bothered with him under ordinary circumstances. I often wish they wouldd behave better, not just toward Neville but also in general, but I don't find their actions sickening. I've seen teenage behavior that I consider sickening, and have been the target of some, and have probably commited some, and Harry and Ron are small potoatoes in that respect. Could they be nicer? Certainly. But JKR's consistent and steadfast refusal to make any of the trio nicer than most kids their age could be reasonably expected to be is, IMO, one of her greatest successes as a writer. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From 05ajf at williams.edu Mon Jan 20 23:17:27 2003 From: 05ajf at williams.edu (itsbeenawhile7 <05ajf@williams.edu>) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 23:17:27 -0000 Subject: Ron's contribution (was SHIP: JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50205 David said: > > In terms of companionship, emotional support, magical ability, > > commitment, faith in the others, loyalty, and all those other > things that go into friendship, do you think Ron is behind the > other two, particularly Hermione? Well, here's the problem, as I see it, with Ron's role in the Trio and in the HP series as of late--of the three in the Trio, he has become frighteningly expendable. In terms of the overall quest, he does not serve a truly integral purpose anymore. In the beginning, Ron was absolutely necessary as a supplier of information about the workings of the wizarding world, as both Harry and Hermione grew up with Muggles. Now, however, that's become less necessary, not only because Harry's been involved in the wizarding world for a few years now, but because there are several other sources for this information now--including the prolific reader, Hermione. Ron doesn't have to do this for them anymore. Pippin mentioned Ron's leadership skills as they related to playing wizard chess in SS. Ron absolutely served an important function in the overall quest to Voldemort in SS--without him, they would not have passed the giant chess task. The problem is, Ron has not been in such an integral and necessary position since, which is why I think the whole "Ron falling behind the other two" was brought up in the first place. Now, to what you were saying, David, in terms of companionship, emotional support, and the like, I believe Ron is absolutely essential. But that's the key--Ron's primary function IMHO, even as far back as SS, is to be Harry's friend and supporter. But he is not needed as far as fighting the good fight goes--he only plays in as someone *Harry* needs. Ron's secondary function is simply being a Weasley, and by being a Weasley, he provides Harry with a necessary "surrogate family." This is, again, another important emotional fallback for Harry. Hermione, on the other hand, of course exists as an emotional support for Harry, too. Yet, she has a substantial and irreplaceable role in working on the overall quest against evil (and the individual problems in each book) in the HP world. She's the brains and the logic in the equation--she supplies Harry with information he'd never otherwise have in order to figure things out, and she's also proven to be a valuable teacher to Harry (she successfully teaches Harry the Summoning Charm which is necessary to Harry surviving the First Task AND escaping Voldemort in GoF, Ch. 34, "Priori Incantatem"). What makes me worry about Ron being expendable is this distinction between the roles the two friends play. Hermione is needed in the rest of the books. Harry needs her to continue his fight--without her insights and skills, Harry won't be able to beat his enemies. Ron is an important emotional support for Harry, but I feel that the nature of the HP series is that this overarching quest is going to slowly strip Harry of his emotional supports and fallbacks. I'm not necessarily insinuating that Ron will die; rather, I'm worried that Ron will be removed as a support system for Harry at some point. There are several other ways of removing Ron without killing him. It would be another crushing blow to Harry emotionally, but not a crushing blow to the fight against Voldemort. Losing Hermione, on the other hand, would be a crushing (and arguably, irrevocably crippling) blow to the quest. And in the end, while Ron and Harry have a wonderful interaction with each other, Harry and Hermione get along AND work extraordinarily well together when fighting the good fight--I'm struck by this every time I read the end of PoA and the midsections of GoF, where Hermione is helping Harry with his tasks. ~Alyssa From jmmears at comcast.net Mon Jan 20 23:54:42 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust ) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 23:54:42 -0000 Subject: Ron and Neville (was Re: Ron and Harry Are Inconsiderate Idiots) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50206 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ebony " wrote: > Okay, Amy Z mentioned the trick stair incident... > > And Jo mentions Ron's including Neville in the World Cup > discussions... > > ...however... > > (and you knew this was coming!) > > All that stuff happens *before* the sections of GoF I analyzed. > > In my essay, I said that I was empathetic towards Ron prior to mid- > GoF. That is why my analysis *began at the Yule Ball*. I don't hate > Ron as a character (I'll address Amy's points in my next post), but > neither do I think he's being fair in any of those sections. Well, Amy's and my examples of Ron's kindness to Neville would have to take place before the Yule Ball, since Neville doesn't appear in any of the chapters after the Yule Ball (apart from snoring in the dorm). Ok, how about this section: GoF, Chapter 37,The Beginning Krum shrugged. He held out his hand as Fleur had done, shook Harry's hand, and then Ron's. Ron looked as though he was suffering some sort of painful internal struggle. Krum had already started walking away when Ron burst out, "Can I have your autograph?" Hermione turned away, smiling at the horseless carriages that were now trundling toward them up the drive, as Krum, looking surprised but gratified, signed a fragment of parchment for Ron. We clearly know that Ron's still in a bit of a dither over any Krum/Hermione connection. He's probably *very* concerned about Hermione's possible visit to Bulgaria over the summer. Still, at this point he not only shakes Krum's hand but pays him the compliment of asking for his autograph, which seems to cheer him up at a moment he's feeling pretty low. This is the Ron we're left with at this point in canon. While he is still anxious about Krum, he's overcome his previous negative behavior, and managed to make a gracious gesture. My impression of this passage is that it demonstrates a big step forward in Ron's maturity and ability to manage his feelings. This is the major reason why I think that all the concern people are expressing about his earlier behavior is overblown. If JKR had wanted to leave us with the LooseCannonViolentlyJealous!Ron impression, this wouldn't be here. Not that I expect him to be perfect in the future. That wouldn't be any fun at all! > And you guys brought up all the old fallback "they're just 14!" > arguments again. Sigh. Well, why isn't this valid (apart from the fact that Hermione is probably 15 for most of GoF ;-P)? I think most of us are profoundly grateful that most of the embarrassing behaviour we displayed at this age is mercifully forgotten. Jo Serenadust From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Tue Jan 21 00:12:01 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:12:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: give shipping peace a chance [was] Real characters In-Reply-To: <20030120195312.94557.qmail@web20414.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030121001201.77957.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50207 Amy Z: > Ebony's post, and more > especially Eileen's follow-up > trashing Ron *and* Harry, > made me think about how we tend > to chew up characters if they > are less than perfect. We're > like the Donner Party at this > point. After two and a half > years without fresh meat, we're > reduced to cannibalism--not > eating each other but munching > on the characters we've got > stashed in the hold. Eileen: > Oh dear, no! I was in prime > mood for Harry and Ron > trashing the moment I > finished GoF! The only reason > I haven't done much of that on > the list is that Harry and Ron > are so much less interesting > than the other characters > we could trash. > > But, really, you don't know > what character trashing is > until you've hung around > with rabid Tolkien fans. The > uninitiated might suppose > that Tolkien fans don't like > any of his characters. The > truth is that the characters > have become so important to > fans that they take on a life > of their own. And once they do > that, we react to them like > real people, by providing > different perspectives on > them, satirizing them, poking > at them, trashing at them. I > don't at all think it's a bad > thing to trash characters. Amy: > I know I'm echoing what > many have said when I say > that I love most of these > characters *because* they're > imperfect. Eileen: > Well, of course, PACMAN. > Perfectly Angelic Characters > Make Awful Novels. The > inconsiderateness and idiocy > of Ron and Harry are actually > what make me love them as > characters, even though they > irritate me as people. I found Amy's original points to be gourmet food for thought and why I do so comes from a similar place as that of what you're saying here, if I read you correctly. Putting characters under the microscope for detailed examinations is, well, why I still lurk here after so many months. I certainly don't advocate putting characters on pedestals and altars, but going to the extreme opposite of beatification in demonizing certain characters for the sake of winning an argument is more rhetorically exciting than textually insightful. Can you tell which I find more convincing and authentic? I'm not saying that you, specifically, have been so egregious but I do want to point out that there's trashing the characters in the form of examining the negatives as vigorously as the positives. Then there's trashing the characters for the sake of strengthening an argument. In this fandom (not just this list of course) more people argue about ship than anything else that I can think of. All too often, during the years that such debating have been going on, there's been that purely argumentative tone. This doesn't usually happen when there's a side that is clearly stronger than the other. No, this occurs most frequently when both sides of the debate has much going for it. Heavy-handed attacks on rival ships go hand in hand with the practice of judging any observation of the personal dynamics in canon only in terms of whether it's the drag or the wind in the sail of one's ship and of its rivals. Whether the observation is valid or intrinsic to the text is all too often of little concern. This aspect of this debate has skewed and tainted any conclusions to be drawn from such a debate. Rhetoric and the pursuit of possible bragging rights has taken precedence over the pursuit of fuller and richer understanding of the canon. When that happens, how fully informed can the end opinion be? Can such an approach to the complex and ever-evolving cast of HP characters stand the test of time? Heck, we don't have to go as far as 'eternity' when the test of new canon is only months away. And really, does this mean that in a polygamous societal structure (where 'couplethink' * does not exist) no one has to - "just has to!" - turn evil? remain frozen in time as they are at any point in the books that is convenient? become celibate? Or die? And our influence on how people interpret the canon is less far flung than the influence of the makers of that fanfic, CTMNBN. Specifically Columbus and/or Heyman. One or both of them (or, for all I know, it's Eleanor and not Chris who's biased) made the decisions to keep the complexity of Ron's character off the screen. Kloves' HPSS screenplay had developed Ron much more believably as someone Harry would sorely miss years down the line than Columbus/Heyman's final cut of that movie would have the audience believe. 'Faithful' eh? Petra a n :) * couplethink - a phrase from The Elkins (who'd be the Laird of Clan McElkins, right?) that launched a thread at OT-Chatter __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From siskiou at earthlink.net Tue Jan 21 00:12:45 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:12:45 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron and Neville (was Re: Ron and Harry Are Inconsiderate Idiots) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9026329690.20030120161245@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 50208 Hi, Monday, January 20, 2003, 3:54:42 PM, serenadust wrote: > This is the major > reason why I think that all the concern people are expressing about > his earlier behavior is overblown. I agree. If you just add all of a characters negative behaviors, with nary a mention of his/her good ones (or maybe a little disclaimer at the most) it'll make anyone sound like an ogre in the making. > If JKR had wanted to leave us > with the LooseCannonViolentlyJealous!Ron impression, this wouldn't > be here. Not that I expect him to be perfect in the future. That > wouldn't be any fun at all! Yes :) I also like Hermione's reaction to Ron's action in that scene. Maybe she still has some hope for Ron's future, too ;) >> And you guys brought up all the old fallback "they're just 14!" >> arguments again. Sigh. > Well, why isn't this valid (apart from the fact that Hermione is > probably 15 for most of GoF ;-P)? I think most of us are profoundly > grateful that most of the embarrassing behaviour we displayed at > this age is mercifully forgotten. I was just in the process of answering to the "age fallback", so I'll add it here: Age *has* to be taken into account, looking at any issue! How can you not? All the problems in GoF could have been solved easily if the characters behaved like adult psychologists, seeing all of the underlying motivations and understanding their feelings perfectly . Kids that age and in the throws of puberty don't have all the knowledge and experience to deal with stuff like that gracefully, yet, and many adults don't either (imo). I wonder what would have happened in GoF if the Yule Ball hadn't happened? No pressure to find a "date" and actually realize that one of your best friends is "a girl", yet. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From Zarleycat at aol.com Tue Jan 21 00:21:23 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001 ) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 00:21:23 -0000 Subject: Real characters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50209 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z " > Maybe we mean the word differently. I like providing different > perspectives on, satirizing, and poking at the characters. But I wouldn't call any of that "trashing." "Trashing" to me > implies that we aren't able to see anything good about them--in fact, > are seeing them as flat characters, even though they're not. > Yes, and as I have read posts over the past several years there have been instances where people have listed all sorts of reprehensible aspects of a particular character in such a way as to preclude any redeeming qualities at all. Now, I can understand not liking a character, or preferring Character A to Character B. But, I've never understood how one can see any of JKR's characters as completely good or completely bad, (with the possible exception of Voldemort, but, then he *did* have an unhappy childhood ;-) ) And that makes me wonder if, in our minds, we've already designated a character to the dustbin, will canon evidence in OoP, or later books, cause a reassessment? Or, will strong canon evidence supporting a character's good side be down-played in favor of weaker canon evidence supporting that disliked character's imperfect qualities? Maybe we should all take a pledge. "I swear that if I find evidence that(fill in the blank with the character you most love to trash) is really an okay person, I will post something positive about her/him." Marianne Marianne From siskiou at earthlink.net Tue Jan 21 00:25:46 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:25:46 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: JKR & Ron/Hermione, H/H converging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17427111002.20030120162546@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 50210 Hi, Saturday, January 18, 2003, 2:05:24 PM, Jim wrote: > You're right, it's not about Harry being a hero, it's about them being > on a heroic quest together. Harry/Hermione is about a partnership of > great intensity over time, a symbiotic duo. While the above sounds really great, it also doesn't sound much like HP (imo). > Hermione gets a great > deal out of it all. I submit to you that her phenomenal growth in > this series is due to what she's been through with Harry; if she > hadn't been his friend, she wouldn't be the person she is today. > Instead, she might be Percy times ten. Those two are so close > already, and they both get a lot out of the relationship. They sure do, and while Hermione has matured some, I don't see *phenomenal* changes in her, yet. I think Hermione loves intellectual challenges/quests and since she doesn't have any personal ones, Harry's problems are just the thing for her ;) > The beauty of a potential Harry/Hermione pairing is that she will > never melt into goo over him. She doesn't 'adore' him, either, except > perhaps someday, as a feeling arrived at over time, which makes it a > feeling of depth and permanence. That's why this is *not*, repeat > *not*, The Hero Gets the Girl. That's when the decorative and > helpless damsel falls into the arms of her rescuer. Not here! Hermione is great at theoretical knowledge, but so far she hasn't had to really use it under duress, like Harry. The couple of times she was in danger, she's had problems acting and needed someone else to take command. She's not a damsel in distress, though . And I agree, she's not the type to melt in the face of Harry's heroics. In fact, she seems to think he needs to have more drive and initiative. > Without Ron, Harry and Hermione could still be working together the > way they are now. Without Harry, Ron and Hermione would be classmates. I just wonder what Hermione's and Harry's life together would be like without a "quest". Hermione is a really good friend to Harry and helps him greatly in these dangerous times, but what once Voldemort is defeated and all Harry wants is a quiet, peaceful life? No more unrest and uproar. (Obviously, I don't want to see Harry die at the end of the story ) I have the feeling Hermione is always going to be looking for challenges, fighting for what's just and right, helping others, whether they want the help or not ;) (like the house elves, giants, Neville...). What do Harry and Hermione have in common to keep them happily occupied, once you take away "the quest"? Are they still suited, then? Ron and Harry would have no trouble at all (maybe I should check out that ship ), and I remember a few times with Ron and Hermione doing things together that didn't involve "the quest", but am drawing a blank for Harry and Hermione. Have they had any good times together just relaxing? I can't wait until the new canon this summer :) (This post has been written under time constraints and I wanted to work on it more, but I'll never have the time to come back to it, if I don't send it now). How do you all manage to keep up with all the posts? I'm having to delete about 80% of them and I know I'm missing some interesting stuff. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Tue Jan 21 00:30:29 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:30:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] give shipping peace a chance [was] Real characters In-Reply-To: <20030121001201.77957.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030121003029.1384.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50211 --- Petra Pan wrote: > Amy Z: > Putting characters under the > microscope for detailed > examinations is, well, why I > still lurk here after so many > months. I certainly don't > advocate putting characters > on pedestals and altars, but > going to the extreme opposite > of beatification in demonizing > certain characters for the sake > of winning an argument is more > rhetorically exciting than > textually insightful. Oh dear, do I see a pattern here? You can write a nine part series demonizing Crouch Sr. and no-one raises an eyebrow, but write a post calling Harry or Ron inconsiderate and the writer is assumed to be doing it for the sake of winning an argument, or because of their ship. Ebony claims not to be comfortable with R/Hr *because* of her uncomfortableness with Ron. The truth is, that I'm uncomfortable with both Harry and Ron. And I claim that I felt this way before I even considered shipping in the Potter books. Why would anyone doubt our claims? Because Harry and Ron are popular characters? And attacking them is just not done? And people who claim not to wholeheartedly and unreservedly like them must have some motivation other than their instinctive reaction to the text? Shades of the great Twins discussion here. So, in conclusion, I think Harry and Ron are inconsiderate, and I would not be friends with them in real life most probably, not least because they wouldn't care to be friends with me. :-) They annoy me terribly. As characters in a book, I love them, and hope to see them mature. I don't see how that position is rhetorical, or how any other person's like, dislike, adoration of, atttraction to, or lukewarmness about any given character should be assumed rhetorical. Eileen Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Tue Jan 21 00:53:19 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:53:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron and Neville (was Re: Ron and Harry Are Inconsiderate Idiots) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030121005319.10819.qmail@web40506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50212 Ebony, I loved your essay! I am leaning towards R/Hr myself, but I thought your analysis on why it doesn't work was incredible. However, one of your points is that even through R---->Hr is obviously present, Hr---->R isn't, and, taking into consideration Ron's behaviour in the 'trolls' scene and during the Yule Ball, is not likely to happen. I want to argue with this. Yes, Ron is *such* a jerk in the middle of GoF - to loads of people (Hermione, Neville, Padma, Krum), and he has no excuse for it. You simply can't tread on everyone in sight because you're in a bad mood. And the fact that's he's 14 is also no excuse. BUT - he is trying to cope with his feelings of jealousy and his growing crush on Hermione, which he doesn't realize he has - he mistakes them for other feelings. So, instead of saying to himself, "I like Hermione and am jealous," he yells at her about fraternizing with the enemy, implies that she is not at all attractive, etc. He is hot-headed and speaks before he thinks about consequences, and all that taken together could kill whatever feelings Hermione might have for Ron, and prevent their development - IF the only things Ron said or did were insults. But they aren't. First of all, Hermione *knows* Ron can be nice. Even though the two nice-to-Neville episodes happened before the ball, they are still significant *because they happened*. The same goes for other examples of Ron being nice. Hermione saw Ron being nice to Neville. She's also seen Ron defend her and other people when Malfoy insulted them. Ron, *not Hermione*, has been the first person to take steps towards making up after the Scabbers fight. Granted, it was before the Yule Ball. But I don't believe that a person can change so quickly from being nice to Neville in the beginning of GoF to becoming a complete git. He can, of course, but a *pattern* won't appear so quickly. I stick to the opinion that all Ron's rudeness was caused by the fact that he suddenly saw Hermione in a new light and didn't know how to deal with it, especially since he didn't realize what that light was. However, after his 'blazing row' with Hermione Ron is never rude to her again. I think that even though Ron didn't get 'the point' right away, he *must* have thought it over and gotten it, because the change in his behavior later on. He has loads of opportunities to insult her further (when she says Krum invited her to Bulgaria, for example), but he doesn't. Yes, he grinds the pestol into the table and is obviously dying to say something not-too-nice (and Hermione must know that) - but he doesn't! The change in his attitude towards the end of GoF is very noticeable. IMO Ron asking Krum for an autograph is also very significant - and Hermione notices it too. So, um... my point. I don't think Ron has no chance of winning Hermione's affections. Regards, Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Tue Jan 21 01:05:37 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 20:05:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] TBAY: Fourth Man Takes A Dive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030121010537.6534.qmail@web20419.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50213 Hanging from the rigging of the Good Ship R/Hr taking pot shots at the H/Hers, Eileen hears a loud murmur from Theory Bay below. Pricking her ears up, she can almost hear the word Cindy repeated again and again. "What's up?" asks Amy, who is crouched beneath the railing, analyzing Ron's character for the benefit of the shippers while trying to avoid the projectiles flying between the two ships. "What's down? you mean," says Eileen frowning at the Bay below. "Cindy's up to something. Or down to something. You know, shipping really doesn't suit me. I may return, but I think I'm going back to the Bay." "It's dangerous down there," warns Amy. "More dangerous than here?" asks Eileen, narrowly dodging one of Ebony's posts. "I think I'll take the chance." She lets go of the rigging. Falling out of the sky is a very different and exhilirating experience. It reminds her of nothing so much as the time she and her brothers took the elevator up to the 45th floor of the Biological Science Building during Reading Week, when nobody would stop the elevator on any floor, and rode it down to the first floor. She then realizes that jumping from a SHIP might not be a good idea. In fact, it might just cause a Big Bang when she hits the water, or the land, or the deck of a ship. SPLASH! No, that wasn't that bad, and why isn't she sinking in the water? And who's that holding onto her shoulder? "Stoned!Harry," she cries with joy. "You are so *considerate*! Could you just walk me across the water over to the Royal George." Stoned!Harry laughs, and lets go of her. Oh well, she'll have to swim ashore. Now that she is back on solid ground, the murmuring has revealed itself as shouting. A newspaper boy is yelling, "NEW FOURTH MAN THEORY! CAPTAIN CINDY PEGS DOLOHOV AS CULPRIT! READ ALL ABOUT IT! UNFORGIVABLE CURSES DIFFERENTIATION!" "Oh dear," says Eileen. It's a tough job getting into the crowded tavern. Somewhere across the room she can hear Cindy shouting something to the crowd. "George, what is going on?" says Eileen, crawling between legs to get behind the bar. "They're going to riot." "Do you think I don't know?" says George in an exasperated tone. "Look, you're one of her associates. Deal with her!" "And why should I do that?" says Eileen. "Because you're very persuasive?" asks George, a charming smile suddenly lighting up on his handsome face. He puts his arm around her shoulder. "Are you doing anything tonight, baby? Because I was thinking we could go to dinner and a movie... If I can close this tavern, of course." Against her better judgement, Eileen melts. "Cindy!" she shouts above the crowd. "Cindy! I want to hear your new theory!" With a whoop, Cindy jumps from the table she is standing on, and swings over on the chandelier. "It's really cool!" she says. "It's perfect! It..." "Does it bang?" asks Eileen. "Of course, it bangs," says Cindy. "All my theories bang! Listen, I've blown FourthMan!Avery out of the water. Drowned him for good." "Really?" says Eileen in a shock. "Not quite. I tried to hit him about with my paddle, but Elkins is being unreasonable protective about him. He's over in the corner somewhere with Elkins. I'll finish him off later." Eileen gulps. *Aves,* she mutters under her breath, *hang on, you'll be all right.* Aloud, she says, "So who is the Fourth Man?" Cindy looks annoyed. "You have to listen to my brilliant process of elimination first." "Spit it out!" "All right. It's Dolohov!" "Dolohov?" "Yeah, Cruciatus Expert Dolohov!" "The same Dolohov that was apprehended before the Longbottom incident?" "He could have been let go!" says Cindy. "Like the Lestranges. Like Avery, for that matter. Like Bagman." "I doubt that," says Eileen. "Ludo Bagman was found innocent of being a Death Eater. "Talked their way out of Azkaban," seems the same thing to me. Which is what the Lestranges definitely did. What we insist FourthMan!Avery did. It fits, btw, with Elkins' nice new timeline in which Crouch's Sr's star was already in the descent before the Longbottom affair. People like the Lestranges, against whom he had no evidence, *had* to be let go, just as Bagman *had* to be brought to trial, where he was cleared, rather than sent to Azkaban minus a trial.Judging from what Moody said about Dolohov, and what Karkaroff said, his guilt was pretty well established. No, Dolohov almost certainly is in an Azkaban cell... or an Azkaban grave." "But that's what people say about the Fourth Man," complains Cindy. "And you pay them no heed." "Because," says Eileen. "We know that Avery did get himself out of a spot of trouble by claiming Imperius. Nowhere in canon does it indicate that Dolohov got out of a spot of trouble. In fact, it indicates the opposite." "It doesn't add up," says Cindy stubbornly. "This has always bothered me about Avery as Fourth Man. I mean, if he talked his way out of Azkaban once claiming he was under the Imperius Curse and then attacked the Longbottoms, how on earth can he claim he acted under Imperius a second time?" "Cindy!" says Eileen in an exasperated tone. "That's not the current state of the theory. It took a long, long time to work out all the details. Death Eater Cells. Stray canons. It was all most perplexing. Yes, we made some slip-ups along the way. But these days, the best form of the theory states that Avery got out of trouble the first time around the same reason that Ludo Bagman did, the same way that the Lestranges seemed to have done. Crouch Sr. had no evidence against them. The Imperius defense comes later. It's the defense Avery uses to get out of Azkaban *after* the Longbottom incident." "Just how gullible is Crouch Sr. supposed to be, anyway? Crouch Sr. is *way* too smart to release Avery a second time like that. No, it just plain doesn't work." Eileen stares at her. "Fudge. Not Crouch. Fudge released Avery the second time around. Or is this some AU where Crouch became Minister for Magic? The first time, Crouch was forced to release Avery, because had *nothing* on him! Just like Ludo Bagman and the Lestranges. Crouch wouldn't have enjoyed it at all. You're right about that. But I'm not seeing how he had a choice." "But if if Avery were one of the Pensieve Four, he would *never* behave like he does in the graveyard. He wouldn't beg forgiveness." "Cindy, that's one our proofs for Fourth!Man, or have you forgotten?" "No, it isn't. The Pensieve Four are the only DEs who tried to find Voldemort. They were loyal. They ought to be treated like heroes, right?" "Yes," says Eileen drily. "They ought to. And three of them are praised to the sky. Voldemort never mentions the fourth. Funny that." "But if Avery were the Fourth Man he'd step forward and say, 'Master *I* tried to find you! I tortured that miserable Frank Longbottom such that he'll never trouble anyone again! But beg forgiveness? Fourth Man *beg forgiveness?* Fourth Man has nothing to apologize for." "He doesn't, does he?" asks Eileen. "Is that why Voldemort so pointedly avoids praising him?" "Well, what does FourthMan!Avery have to apologize for?" says Cindy. "FourthMan!Avery repudiated Voldemort, woman! He fully co-operated with Fudge every step of the way. That would have involved handing over a substantial chunk of information that he learnt under "Imperius." And then, he spent the rest of his time collecting stamps..." "Yellow Flag!" shouts Cindy. "Forget the stamps. The point is that Avery, the ever-so-loyal Avery, didn't make an effort to find Voldemort after that. He was a pathetic failure. Combine that with being a nervous personality and we get graveyard Avery." "But Avery isn't a Cruciatus specialist." "I'm sorry?" "Avery isn't a Cruciatus specialist. You see, the DEs were all divided into specialties. And Avery isn't a Cruciatus specialist." "Which page was that on? No, wait a second, where did you get this idea about specialists?" "Mulciber was an Imperius specialist, so I figure it stands to reason that the others might have specialized in things. Dolohov is only mentioned to have tortured people. So he's a Cruciatus specialist. Barty Crouch Jr. only Imperio'es people so he's a Imperius specialist." "Cindy, Crouch Jr. KILLED his father?" "We don't know how exactly Crouch Jr. killed his father - he only tells us that he 'killed [his] father." "You think he hit him over the head with a blunt object a few times?" asks Eileen in disbelief. "It's possible," says Cindy delicately. "So. Mr.-I-Was-Under-Imperius-For-Eleven-Years-And-Couldn't-Kick-It-Till-Voldemort-Came-Back-And-The-Other-Death-Eaters-Got-Me-Really-Bad-After-Which-I-Went-Back-To-Being-Under-The-Imperius-Curse!Crouch Jr. now has the strength of will to be an Imperius specialist for Voldemort. Charming." "Isn't it great?" says Cindy. "And Pettigrew's an Avada Kedavra specialist because he killed Cedric and blew up all those Muggles?" "He blew up the Muggles with Avada Kedavra?" asks Eileen puzzled. "Details, Schmeetails," says Cindy rapidly. "Anyway, he was terrible with Imperius. Crouch Jr. tells us that 'Wormtail neglected his duty. He was not watchful enough.' Keeping Crouch Sr. under Imperius was a job way too big for Wormtail, that was the problem." "That would be why *Voldemort* did it." "Voldemort?" says Cindy. "Yes, "My father was placed under the Imperius curse by my master," says Eileen with a pained smile. "Pettigrew's fault was, as you've said, that he wasn't *watchful* enough. Didn't keep Crouch properly locked up. Though, of course, it wasn't really Pettigrew's fault was it? Just like..." "Just like what?" Eileen stares blankly at the floor. "Just like Crouch and Winky at the QWC... George, a glass of whiskey." "Travers was an AK specialist," Cindy continues confidently. "Karkaroff says 'There was Travers - he helped murder the McKinnons!'" Eileen is still staring at the floor. "And so Dolohov was a Cruciatus expert. Dolohov didn't just cast the Cruciatus Curse one time, did he? No, he hurled that Curse 'countless' times. And Karkaroff is very specific, isn't he? He suggests that Dolohov is quite expert at torturing Muggles and Wizards alike." "He does?" says Eileen. "Saying the man was a lunatic sadist and saying he was an expert seem to me two different things. But, given that somehow every objection to this lovely scheme could be overcome, where's the Bang?" "The what?" asks Cindy. "The Bang. You're replaced Snape's old schoolmate and friend with some unknown Slavic sadist. You'd better have a Bang here." "Well..." "I thought so," says Eileen. "I'm going to have to think about this," says Cindy. She hops over the bar, and walks towards the door, buried in reverie. "Good job!" says George, hastily turning away from the brunette with whom he had been flirting. "What do you say I go and rev up the Missus? I'll pick you up out front in fifteen minutes." Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jan 21 01:27:56 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 01:27:56 -0000 Subject: Hermione is an Inconsiderate Idiot Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50214 Ebony said: >>H/H shippers have repeatedly conceded both Harry *and* Hermione's personality flaws. << I find H/H shippers often don't concede *all* Hermione's flaws. It's like they're answering the "What are your weaknesses" question on an employment form : "I expect too much of myself" or "I get too involved with my work." But look at her behavior compared to Cho's. Cho politely answers Harry's question about who's taking her to the ball, even though he blurted it and it's none of his business. But Hermione keeps Ron and Viktor both on a string all through GoF. It's this, IMO, that prompts her blushes in Potions Class. Read it again, (and weep). **************** "There's something funny, though," said Hermione ten minutes later, holding her pestle suspended over a bowl of scarab beetles. "How could Rita Skeeter have known . . . ?" "Known what?" said Ron quickly. "You haven't been mixing up Love Potions, have you?" "Don't be stupid," Hermione snapped, starting to pound up her beetles again. "No, it's just. . . how did she know Viktor asked me to visit him over the summer?" Hermione blushed scarlet as she said this and determinedly avoided Ron's eyes. "What?" said Ron, dropping his pestle with a loud clunk. *********************************** Hermione blushes, and avoids Ron's eyes, *before* he drops the pestle. The suggestion that Hermione would toy with two boys' affections doesn't trouble her at all--when she's thinking of Krum and Harry. Rubbish! as she says. But then she gets all hot and bothered telling Ron about Viktor's invitation to spend the summer holidays with him. That wouldn't have anything to do with who invited her for the last summer holiday, would it? Hint: it wasn't Harry. I have a feeling that having Hermione turn literally scarlet is Jo's indication that Hermione *does* enjoy having both Ron and Viktor interested in her, and is manipulating the situation a bit to make Ron squirm (which, as Ebony pointed out, he richly deserves.) It's idiotic and inconsiderate, but understandable if she is really interested in Ron, thinks he's interested in her, but is frustrated by his unwillingness to reveal his true feelings. If she really is interested in Harry instead, I'd think worse of her for acting this way. What's he done to her? Pippin From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 21 01:31:38 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (rsteph1981 ) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 01:31:38 -0000 Subject: McGonagall Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50215 I know we've discussed this before, but here I go again. Why, oh why, did Dumbledore send her away before Sirius transformed and Severus was given his assignment? Is she trustworthy? Is she skilled enough to be of use (okay, we all know the answer to that one)? I know that everything that's happening is secret, but why would Dumbledore keep it a secret from her? Why isn't she part of the old gang? Rebecca From bobbippon at hotmail.com Tue Jan 21 01:21:55 2003 From: bobbippon at hotmail.com (jomamaumd ) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 01:21:55 -0000 Subject: another flint? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50216 Don't know if this has been discussed yet, but I think JKR slipped up in the location of Myrtle's bathroom. Hermione says at the Deathday Party (COS p.132, American paperback): "She haunts one of the toilets in the girls' bathroom on the first floor." Then, only 6 pages later, "Harry hurtled around the second floor, Ron and Hermione panting behind him, not stopping until they turned a corner in to the last, deserted passage." This passage was the one in which the first attack occurred, so obviously this happened on the second floor. But in the next chapter, when Ron remarks about the door just next to the scene of the attack, Hermione states "That's Moaning Myrtle's place." Clearly, Moaning Myrtle's bathroom has to be on the second floor next to the scene of the attack, as the water trail came from there - so the location given on page 132 must be a flint. - jomama From julia at thequiltbug.com Tue Jan 21 01:47:41 2003 From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 17:47:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] McGonagall Message-ID: <20030120174741.2241.h013.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> No: HPFGUIDX 50217 Rebecca said: > I know that everything that's happening is secret, but why would > Dumbledore keep it a secret from her? Why isn't she part of the old > gang? > My guess is that he needs someone trustworthy that can honestly say that they didn't know what was happening, in case the plans went wrong. If the MoM decides to get rid of Dumbledore for "plotting something", and McGonagall can truthfully claim ignorance, then they might not get rid of her. That would keep out an Unknown Element from taking over Hogwarts. Probably a stupid idea, but I can't bring myself to even fathom Evil!McGonagall. Julia From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Tue Jan 21 02:36:44 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 18:36:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] nautical hazards//judgments//Cho In-Reply-To: <20030120105101.26065.qmail@web21104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030121023644.72687.qmail@web40501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50218 I wrote: > But I don't think I like Harry with > anyone. I remember that I got very > mad the second I read the line "She > was shorter than Harry by about a > head, and Harry couldn't help > noticing, nervous as he was, that > she was extremely pretty. She > smiled at Harry as the teams faced > each other behind their captains, > and he felt a slight lurch in the > region of his stomach that he > didn't think had anything to do > with nerves." (PoA, "GRYFFINDOR > VERSUS RAVENCLAW"). > I don't know why - it's *not* > because I want Harry for myself > , or have a specific preference > for whom he will end up with, but > since then I've always disliked Cho > Chang Petra Pan: Does this mean you dislike Cho solely because Harry has a crush on her? How do those of you who feel this way about Cho reconcile your poor opinion of her with the book's theme of the importance of choices? In other words, what choices has she made that led you to dislike her so? Me again: OK... I thought about what Petra Pan said for a while, and came up with a possible reason for why I dislike Cho Chang. I am still not sure if that is the real reason, but that comes much closer than anything else. First off, I don?t dislike Cho because of what she is like ? I don?t know what she is like. I don?t like her as Harry?s romantic interest. You see, I hated to see Harry melt like ice cream in the sun as soon as he laid eyes on her. For two and a half years of his life we watched Harry, Ron, Hermione, Ginny and many other people grow and develop, we?ve grown to love some of them and dislike others *for a reason*, and here comes Cho Chang of whom we *and Harry* know *positively nothing* (at the moment) except that she is extremely pretty ? and Harry falls for her like Romeo for Juliet. In GoF, Cho Chang is still as pretty as before, but we find out that she?s nice. So? There are loads of nice people out there, and the fact that Harry knows that Cho is nice doesn?t mean he knows any more about her than he did when he first saw her. >>?In other words, what choices has she made that led you to dislike her so?? << Cho didn?t make any choices. That?s part of why I don?t like her. She?s just this neutral character in the background that for some reason occupies Harry?s thoughts and *this annoys me*. Now... Petra Pan also wrote: ?How do those of you who feel this way about Cho reconcile your poor opinion of her with the book's theme of the importance of choices?? ? It?s not a poor opinion of Cho. It?s the inability to have an opinion. Petra Pan: <> I don?t read Cho as an undeserving person. She might be great, she might not be, but before I know her better, I won?t like her. I wrote: >> do you think it might be because she's not from Gryffindor? I wonder... Petra Pan: < So, how can such dislike be explained? Or justified? To have a strong opinion, positive or negative, about people we barely know is the definition of prejudice after all.>> OK, I don?t dislike every non-Gryffindor, and I don?t dislike Cho per se, but rather the idea of Harry ?melting into a puddle of goo? as soon as she looks at him, since, as you justly pointed out, we barely know her. So that?s not prejudice . Petra Pan: < 'Cause your earlier statement "I don't think I like Harry with anyone" now reads like a description of an opinion you...uhm...no longer hold. And therefore no longer justifies your dislike of Cho. Me: See, I hate the idea of Harry/Cho *now* - but I might grow to like it if we have some more Cho in the foreground. I am OK with Harry/Ginny *now* - but I won?t be disappointed if it never works out. I don?t like Harry/Hermione ? because I like Ron/Hermione. But other than that, I honestly don?t care whom Harry is with - *now*. I might change my opinion later. I would, however, like to see more Ginny development in the series. And I honestly don?t mean to offend anyone who believes in love at first sight. I do believe in it, I just don?t think that what Harry feels *is* love. Regards, Maria, who won?t board a ship with Harry on it until she reads OoP, if not later. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 21 02:46:16 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 18:46:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] McGonagall In-Reply-To: <20030120174741.2241.h013.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> Message-ID: <20030121024616.98332.qmail@web20004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50219 --- Calliope wrote: > My guess is that he needs someone trustworthy that > can honestly say that they > didn't know what was happening, in case the plans > went wrong. If the MoM > decides to get rid of Dumbledore for "plotting > something", and McGonagall can > truthfully claim ignorance, then they might not get > rid of her. That would keep > out an Unknown Element from taking over Hogwarts. > > Probably a stupid idea, but I can't bring myself to > even fathom Evil!McGonagall. I also an unable to fathom Evil!McGongall. And, it's not like she could lie about knowing; they have Veritserum. Or maybe he'll tell her later but doesn't want everyone else to know she knows. Okay, so Isensew that makes no snes, but I'm a weirdo. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Jan 21 03:00:50 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 03:00:50 -0000 Subject: SHIP: The Four Loves: Why R/Hr is preferred to H/Hr In-Reply-To: <20030120212007.64777.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50220 Eileen:"I think that R/Hr is also much better suited [than H/H] to the subversion of the romantic paradigm. "In the end, as much as we like to talk about Avery, Snape, and Crouch, it?s all about Harry. What JKR would do by choosing R/Hr over H/Hr is giving primacy to the philos relationship over the eros relationship." This is about 180 degrees different from my thinking. This is why: We agree that the friendship of the Trio is founded on philos, and that all three love each other. Ron's feelings toward Hermione appear to be transforming from philos to eros, and I only can see eros gaining ascendancy. Obviously that's arguable. What is clear is that Harry and Hermione's relationship is strongly based on philos and - I don't have a better word - comradeship. They are connected and connecting in mind and purpose. Their shared experience will always be the most intense of their lives. Even if Harry and Hermione marry and have five kids together their relationship will still have its roots deeply embedded in the philos and comradeship and sharing of their quest, as if their names had been Frodo and Samantha. Eros will not drive out philos. Hoping that the philos remains untainted by eros is somehow medieval, a sort of the Lives of the Saints thing, and doesn't seem to have faith philos can stand the competition. Harry and Hermione are not being driven together by couplethinking; if they fall in love, it's because they choose it. Actually, they won't "fall" in love. Some day they'll look at each other, and Harry: "Hermione, did you know that we're in love?" Hermione:"Honestly, Harry, you really *are* dense, aren't you?" Jim Ferer From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Jan 21 03:27:05 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 03:27:05 -0000 Subject: McGonagall In-Reply-To: <20030121024616.98332.qmail@web20004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50221 Rebecca:"I also an unable to fathom Evil!McGongall." Me either. Rebecca:"And, it's not like she could lie about knowing; they have Veritserum. Or maybe he'll tell her later but doesn't want everyone else to know she knows. Okay, so Isensew [?] that makes no sense, but I'm a weirdo." It's a basic principle of security that you don't tell anyone anything that they don't Need to Know. If you and I were spouses, both working at the same top-secret agency, we couldn't share what we knew unless we were cleared for the same things. Dumbledore trusts all the Trio, too, but there's things he hasn't told them, and he's right not to. Trust hasn't got anything to do with it. I also like the "deniability" factor, too. There's sensitive stuff at my job that I don't need to know and don't want to know. I feel very strongly that JKR won't - can't - make any of the principals turn out evil. if Evil!Dumbledore, Evil!Lupin or Evil!McGonagall were true, it would be one of the worst betrayals an author ever committed on her readers, especially young readers, and I couldn't forgive her for it. What would it teach? 1. People are no damn good. 2. Don't trust anybody; they'll all betray you eventually. 3. Good is illusory; only evil is real. Be a cynic. I don't believe for a minute JKR is doing it. I know betrayal happens, but this isn't the place for it. The exception here is that we might see someone turn away from good because of rage or fear or jealousy, but it won't be someone we've believed all along is good who is secretly evil. So Fudge could be evil, although I think he's just a coward, or Ron could fail at some point, in a moment of weakness. From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Tue Jan 21 03:40:02 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 22:40:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: The Four Loves: Why R/Hr is preferred to H/Hr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030121034002.54703.qmail@web20413.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50222 --- "Jim Ferer " wrote: > Eileen:"I think that R/Hr is also much better > suited [than H/H] to > the subversion of the romantic paradigm. > > "In the end, as much as we like to talk about > Avery, Snape, and > Crouch, it?s all about Harry. What JKR would do by > choosing R/Hr over > H/Hr is giving primacy to the philos relationship > over the eros > relationship." > > This is about 180 degrees different from my > thinking. This is why: I don't think I've made myself clear enough. I'll try to explain, and ask you to explain some points that I didn't find that clear. > We agree that the friendship of the Trio is founded > on philos, and > that all three love each other. >Ron's feelings toward Hermione appear > to be transforming from philos to eros, and I only > can see eros gaining ascendancy. >Obviously that's arguable. Are you saying here that the philos in the R-Hr relationship would be driven out by eros? Because that's not only arguable, it's incomprehensible. Friends who fall in love are still friends. Or am I misunderstanding you? >What is clear is that > Harry and Hermione's relationship is strongly based > on philos and - I > don't have a better word - comradeship. They are > connected and > connecting in mind and purpose. To a certain extent. I don't subscribe to any of the trio "connecting" so well as many shippers like to say. But I agree that the philos between Harry and Hermione is extremely strong. > Their shared experience will always be the most > intense of their > lives. Even if Harry and Hermione marry and have > five kids together > their relationship will still have its roots deeply > embedded in the > philos and comradeship and sharing of their quest, > as if their names > had been Frodo and Samantha. Eros will not drive > out philos. No, I don't think it would. Why else would I ship R/Hr? :-) > Hoping that the philos remains untainted by eros is > somehow medieval, > a sort of the Lives of the Saints thing, and doesn't > seem to have > faith philos can stand the competition. You misunderstand me then, since I have hoped no such thing. As noted above, I do ship R/Hr which is eros between two *friends.* >Harry and Hermione are not > being driven together by couplethinking; if they > fall in love, it's > because they choose it. Ah, and here's the root of things. My argument was that dreaded thing known as "metathinking." (Or whatever we're calling it now.) I am not making an argument about Harry, Ron, and Hermione as characters in the text, and what they want. That discussion is engaged in by far abler minds than mine. I am making an argument based on what a certain number of people want the text to promote. The question is not whether Harry or Hermione, or Ron or Hermione would be driven together by the romantic paradigm. The question is whether the HP series will end up promoting the romantic paradigm. I don't want it to, and I realize now that much of my shipping can be explained by my wanting to avoid another ode to the supremacy of eros. Eros rules all today and, therefore, I desperately want to see philos in the absence of eros in the place of honour. R/Hr shows us that philos coexists with eros, but most importantly, it means that the two most important relationships in the books to the reader: H-Hr and H-R, are philos without a touch of eros. Obviously, this argument has no impact on what JKR will actually do. It concerns what would make certain listies most happy. Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From suzchiles at pobox.com Tue Jan 21 03:50:39 2003 From: suzchiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:50:39 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron and Neville (was Re: Ron and Harry Are Inconsiderate Idiots) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50223 Ebony was weary when she noted: > > And you guys brought up all the old fallback "they're just 14!" > arguments again. Sigh. > > --weary!Eb > > But they are just 14. It's impossible to analyze the behavior of these two boys without taking into account that they are adolescents who've yet to understand a whole lot of things about social discourse. We see more adult behavior in Hermione, but girls often are more advanced than boys at this age. Most of the 14-year old boys I've known behave quite like Ron and Harry: on the whole, they're pretty decent kids, but are sometimes insensitive, callous, and often rather stupid. Suzanne From Audra1976 at aol.com Tue Jan 21 04:35:36 2003 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 23:35:36 EST Subject: Dumbledore's Brilliant Idea (was: A detailed analysis of Snape's hatred of Harry Message-ID: <179.14e46240.2b5e2818@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50224 This is an old thread that I had saved until I could devote my full attention to it, and I'm glad I did. Very interesting commentary by everyone. I just have one thing to address... SnapesSlytherin wrote: > > I agree with Snape there. I personally cannot stand people who break the > > rules and get ahead, while those of us who follow get nowhere. No one is > > above the rules. Period. Now, I disagree with you on the "can > > vs. must". Harry doesn't *have* to do anything, he chooses to. Hence, > can > > wins to me. suzchiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) asked: > I want to be sure about this. Does this mean that you would have preferred > that Harry not have tried to find the Philosopher's Stone before the bad guy > (thought Snape, was Quirrell) and thus ensure that the stone went to > Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that even though Quirrelmort made it through all the other obstacles, it would have been impossible for him to get his hands on the Stone due to "one of [Dumbledore's] more brilliant ideas" of using the Mirror of Erised. Harry breaking the rules and following him actually enabled the possibility of Quirrelmort obtaining the Stone. Harry got the Stone out of the Mirror. Quirrelmort would have just seen himself drinking the Elixir of Life. Audra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From elfundeb at comcast.net Tue Jan 21 04:37:50 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 23:37:50 -0500 Subject: SHIP: The Four Loves: Why R/Hr is preferred to H/Hr Message-ID: <005a01c2c106$db546160$723b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 50225 I had drafted a predictable defense of Ron's place in the trio post, starting it with the disclaimer that I'm a no-shipper. Then I read Eileen's post, pointing out that "I began to realize that one of the reasons I love the HP series is that friendship is very much one of the four loves here. In fact, so far, philos (friendship) and storge (affection) are the important loves of the Potterverse. People have sacrificed their lives for both," and realized that a lot of my thinking dovetails with the philos/storge concepts. The primary reason I don't like to ship is that the Trio's friendship don't need a romance in order for them to provide emotional and other resources for one another. In my view each of Harry, Hermione and Ron is already emotionally invested in both of the others in a philos/storge sense. Not that the Trio do not also harbor feelings of eros for one another. We have a good idea of Ron's feelings. I also think it's possible that Hermione has romantic feelings for either or both of her best friends, and that the text has been deliberately written to confuse the issue. However, I think the struggle for them in the next books may be to preserve the philos and storge of their relationships notwithstanding any other feelings (FITD or otherwise) that they may have. That, I think, has been the basis of my no-shipping stance. However, I've had a sneaking suspicion that at the very end the series would veer R/H. Anyway, here's what I wrote. Some of the material to which I'm replying is days old and it's ridiculously long, but brevity is, unfortunately, not my strong point. If you make it to the end there's an alternate "take" on the Unexpected Task scene with a little less sting than the one Ebony posted. Jim Ferer wrote: > Now take his part in the Trio. He's Harry's best friend, but already we see signs of a Harry/Hermione team that has less time for Ron in it. Hermione is Harry's coach and personal trainer, the intellect who prepares him for the challenges he faces. Hermione teaches Harry spells while Ron acts as the Stunning dummy. When the Trio discuss events and theories with Sirius and "Moody," Ron doesn't quite keep up. Me: Though Hermione's accomplishments are more obvious, I think there are subtle clues, even in GoF, that Ron is not falling behind generally, although his desperation for compliments in GoF makes it look that way. For example, when the Trio prepare Harry for the Third Task, we see Hermione directing the spells while Ron acts as dummy. However, the text states that "they" had made the list of spells, and that sacrifices were required on both Ron's and Hermione's part. (GoF, ch. 29.) And later, when we last see them preparing Harry, we see Ron executing an Impediment Charm that stops a fly dead in midair, showing that he's been learning those same spells they're teaching Harry. Also, a lot of what JKR writes is intended to be funny. And though I believe Hermione does have a sense of humor, she doesn't work well in sight gags. I found the vision of Ron being stunned and toppling over rather funny, and it would not have worked at all with Hermione taking on that role. At the same time, using Ron as the dummy highlights once again, Ron's willingness to make physical sacrifices for Harry. Also, their preparation for the Third Task is very different from the first two. In the first task, when only Hermione helped him, he became so stressed out he almost didn't have the concentration to master the Summoning Charm. ("Harry liked Hermione very much, but she just wasn't the same as Ron. There was much less laughter and a lot more hanging around in the library when Hermione was your best friend. Harry still hadn't mastered Summoning Charms, he seemed to have developed something of a block about them, and Hermione insisted that learning the theory would help." And, "'Hermione,' Harry said, through gritted teeth, "will you shut up for a bit, please? I'm trying to concentrate.") In the second task, perhaps overreacting to the stress Hermione's efforts in the first task had produced, Harry is too quick to join Ron in chess or other activities and ignore Hermione's admonitions to get to work, with the result that he puts off his preparation so long that he almost fails completely. It's only when the three of them work together, as they do in the Third Task, that he feels confident about the task, and what happens in the maze illustrates that he *is* well-prepared. They all bring something to the mix, and the best things happen when the three of them are working together. For whatever reason, though, JKR seems to be promoting a surface read that Ron's contributions to the Trio are less than Hermione's. I don't know whether it's intended as misdirection allowing us to suspect Ron would (wittingly or unwittingly) betray Harry, but it's increasingly hard to notice Ron's contributions. However, his skills are still there, even if they're not highlighted. He still has his strategist skills, demonstrated by his chess talent. While he hasn't had much of an opportunity to use it on Harry's behalf of late, we know that in GoF he is still ahead of Harry in this department, which involves manipulation of live pieces; we see him defeating Harry at chess in "an exciting checkmate . . . involving a couple of recklessly brave pawns and a very violent bishop." The other thing Ron has to offer is keen observatory skills - relating to people as well as things. Those are also still in evidence in GoF. He's the one who notices how emotionally dependent Winky is on Crouch Sr. He picks up on the twins' need for funds. We are led by Hermione to believe that he is wrong and jumping to conclusions, but I'm not so sure about that; Hermione's judgments are often colored by her own expectations about how people in certain positions will behave, not from observing what they actually do; Ron's judgments may appear to be wrong, but he's basing them on what he has observed. I also think that Hermione's seeming maturity in GoF is something of a set-up. Hermione has grown a great deal through the first four books, but she has not really lost her trust that people (especially those in authority) will do the *right* thing. She objects when Ron suggests that the twins might be blackmailing someone, and when he suggests Percy might throw a family member to the dementors. Her blindness about the house-elves causes her to misjudge Crouch Sr., yet she still doesn't want to believe that he would send his son to Azkaban. Hermione makes these judgments with her heart instead of her intellect. They have not hurt her to date, but that's an undercurrent I believe is waiting to be explored. Penny on his self-esteem: What he really needs is to sort out his self-esteem problems and *then* he'll be ready for a romantic relationship with someone like Hermione. At the present though, I think he would need to see himself as the dominant or more successful party, and he's sure not going to get that from Hermione. I think if the two of them end up dating it will turn into a power battle, due to Ron not being confident enough in his own abilities to let Hermione shine in her own right. Me: I have a lot of problems with the idea that Ron needs someone who will prop up his lagging self-esteem. To take this comment out of the shipping context, would he do better to find different friends that would shore up his self-esteem by making him feel more important? I would never question that Ron has self-esteem problems, as in fact each of the Trio do. But I think that the *last* thing Ron needs is someone who will make him feel successful at his current achievement level. That's a recipe for stagnation in his development. I think he could be much more than he has shown if he could recognize his abilities. It would be completely counterproductive for him to become the big fish in a small pond. The fact that he has chosen Harry and Hermione as his best friends indicates to me that at some level he truly believes his is on a par with them. If being their friend was not what he really wanted he had the opportunity in GoF, during his fight with Harry, to distance himself from them both. Unlike Harry, Ron was not isolated; he spent the time of the fight hanging around with his brothers and with Seamus and Dean.. But he chose to patch up the friendship (and before Harry was ready, based on the scene when Ron interrupts Harry's conversation with Sirius). He'd much rather swim in the big pond. I also think that the fact that neither Ron nor Hermione makes any attempt to "pump up" the other's self-esteem is a positive thing. Where the H/H shippers see tiresome bickering, I see two characters who are blunt and honest with one another, and therefore challenge each other's assumptions and beliefs. I think this is important for Hermione as well as Ron, because like Ron, she's not always right, but most people (Harry included) don't challenge her as she needs to be challenged. In fact, I often think the Harry-Hermione relationship partakes too much of a mutual admiration society. Hermione has made a number of statements that indicate that she belittles her own talents and does not believe she can hold a candle to Harry on really important matters. Hermione admires Harry's talents far more than her own: ("Harry, you're a great wizard . . . . Books! And cleverness! There are more important things - friendship and bravery"). And in PoA, "You conjured up a Patronus that drove away all those dementors! That's very, *very* advanced magic . . . ." Harry often seems to show the same amazement at Hermione's skills, reflecting his own self-esteem problems. However, Harry's problem is not recognizing his truly extraordinary abilities: he may be the greatest young wizard to come to Hogwarts since Dumbledore himself, and he thinks he's *only* good at Quidditch. There's a great deal of emphasis in the books on Harry's attempt to be a "normal" young wizard. I believe that's the undercurrent of PoA and Harry's desire to go to Hogsmeade as all the other students do, to the point of ignoring the grave threat escaped prisoner Sirius Black supposedly represents. However, as we all know, Harry is not "normal." He's the first first-year Quidditch player in 100 years. He's defeated or held off Voldemort three times already. He can fight off the Imperius Curse. There's nothing normal about him. How many of us can identify with Harry's virtually superhuman talents? Not many. But many, many of us can identify with Hermione. She is all too human. I don't see Harry and Hermione working together as an equal team. I see an underlying message in the books that Hermione's book-learning and logic can take one only so far. In the end, Hermione's contribution is in a supporting role to Harry whose natural talents and pureness of heart make him the unquestioned star. No matter how great her accomplishments may be, and no matter how much Harry may appreciate her efforts, she will always be in his shadow. So will Ron, whose efforts may be different in nature but equally important. Interestingly, while searching The Ivory Tower and Harry Potter for a quote that Penny paraphrased (which I couldn't find even using the index), I came across the following in Farah Mendlesohn's essay which supports this point. She states that fantasy surrounds the hero with companions whose role is to "provide their skills to enable the hero to achieve specific things for which the *hero* and not they take the credit and the prize." As Pippin said earlier in this debate, Harry is the epic hero and as such, he's on a different plane from those who assist him. Ultimately, both Ron and Hermione's skills will have to give way to Harry, leaving them in a more complementary position to one another. As Eileen pointed out, "Harry's relationship with Hermione is to the reader much more important than Ron's relationship with Hermione. In the end, as much as we like to talk about Avery, Snape, and Crouch, it's all about Harry. What JKR would do by choosing R/Hr over H/Hr is giving primacy to the philos relationship over the eros relationship." That would not destroy the *philos* with respect to Harry, because both of them serve a similar role for Harry (though no one would contest that they provide their support in different ways). Therefore, if I were a betting woman, I'd place my money on R/H over H/H. But not till the end. Because romance *would* spoil the great adventure. Unrequited crushes (or crushes believed to be unrequited), on the other hand, seem to be both angsty and humorous, at least in JKR's hands, especially when there's something much more important at stake. The Unexpected Task Linda McCabe's explanation of The Unexpected Task which Ebony cited: > "We should get a move on, you know . . . ask someone. He's right. We don't want to end up with a pair of trolls." > Hermione let out a sputter of indignation. > "A pair of... what, excuse me?" > "Well - you know," said Ron, shrugging. "I'd rather go alone than with - with Eloise Midgen, say." > "Her acne's loads better lately - and she's really nice!" > "Her nose is off-center," said Ron. > "Oh I see," Hermione said, bristling. "So basically, you're going to take the best-looking girl who'll have you, even if she's completely horrible?" > "Er - yeah, that sounds about right," said Ron. > "I'm going to bed," Hermione snapped, and she swept off toward the girls' staircase without another word. (GoF, UK paper, p. 344) > ***************** > "Trolls. You know the twelve foot mountain troll that almost killed Hermione back in book 1? The nasty, smelly, foul creature who terrorized her. Ron didn't even consider asking Hermione, he was concerned about not having to go out with a troll! Hermione wasn't even on his radar screen even though she was supposedly his other best friend. I'd be mighty insulted by that exchange. He compounded his insult by describing Eloise Midgen in very uncomplimentary terms - someone who Hermione thinks is "really nice." Looks are more important to him than anything else. And females, especially bookish females can feel very insecure about their own looks. That conversation wouldn't endear him to me in the least." Me: I want to offer a different take on this scene based on my view is that Ron tries hard not to acknowledge that he even *has* ambitions and goals, and part of the reason why he comes off so badly in the Unexpected Task/Yule Ball sequence is that he won't even acknowledge his real desires, leaving him dangerously open to suggestion. There's no question that Hermione was highly offended by Ron's remarks, and that they particularly stung because, despite being clever and brilliant and nice to boot, the onset of the Yule Ball has brought on in her an attack of ugly duckling fears. Unquestionably Ron's remarks feed her insecurities, and she reacts in kind. But look at what precedes this exchange: Fred: "So . . . you lot got dates for the ball yet?" "Nope," said Ron. "Well, you'd better hurry up, mate, or all the good ones will be gone," said Fred. "Who're you going with, then?" said Ron. "Angelina," said Fred promptly, without a trace of embarrassment. "What?" said Ron, taken aback. "You've already asked her?" "Good point," said Fred. [snip Fred's very public show of asking Angelina to ball] They left. Ron stopped feeling his eyebrows and looked across the smoldering wreck of his card castle at Harry." I think this is a brilliantly funny scene (in fact, The Unexpected Task is wonderfully comic throughout), but the juxtaposition of Fred's nonchalance and Ron's blowup of his card castle sets up the much-quoted exchange as a young, immature sibling being goaded into doing something stupid by big brother. And not just any big brother, but one who is only too happy to make his brothers the butt of jokes; a big brother who once turned his teddy bear into a spider, triggering a lifelong fear of spiders; a big brother who once took his pet and used it for bludger practice (and, yes, Ron may complain about his pets, but he is very attached to them). Ron does not want to become fodder for Fred, so he tries to act like he has a clue about getting a partner. He doesn't. He hasn't given any thought at all to this topic. He hasn't thought about Hermione as a girl. Or anyone else, for that matter. Therefore, he's going to put his very large foot into his mouth. Next, Ron's reference to trolls. They are quite ugly, but they are also exceedingly stupid. Fred says at the QWC that anyone can speak Troll; you can only point and grunt, and in FBAWTFT, it states that Trolls had being status temporarily because they "had been taught a few simple sentences by the goblins. Hermione takes the comment as a reference to appearance, because the first thing she does is refer to Eloise's acne. Ron objects that her nose is off-center, a seemingly surface-level indictment of poor Eloise. But if you look at *why* Eloise's nose is off-center, there may be another explanation for the troll remark. All we know about Eloise is that she managed to remove her nose while attempting to curse off her acne, and that Madam Pomfrey managed to reattach it for her. In other words, her nose is *not* off-center because she was born that way but because of a desperate, botched attempt to improve her appearance. That suggests that Eloise is not too adept at magic. So I think Ron's aversion to Eloise is not rooted - at least solely -- in her less-than-perfect looks. But from Hermione's perspective (which the surface reading suggests to the reader) it's all about looks, because she shares Eloise's insecurities. She sympathizes with what Eloise did to herself in a way that Ron does not; in fact, she herself has engaged in a bit of magical self-improvement. She was more fortunate than Eloise, however, because was able to get Madam Pomfrey to shrink her teeth for her. (In fact, we know that Hermione is likely to have been able to perform the spell just fine herself.) >From Ron's perspective, the rest of the exchange consists of Ron stumbling around putting his foot in his mouth because he has no conscious knowledge of his attraction to her. His response to Hermione's remark that he intended to take the best-looking girl even if she was horrible ("Er - yeah, that sounds about right") suggests to me that he had no thoughts about the subject at all and was going to let Hermione put words in his mouth for him. This is an extension of what I see as Ron's inability to engage in self-help. Notice that throughout the Unexpected Task, he never makes any effort to get a date except for when he succumbs to Fleur's veela charms ("I was just walking past her in the entrance hall - she was standing there talking to Diggory - and it sort of came over me.") Yeah, Ron had a bad couple of chapters, and he'll probably have some bad chapters in OoP as well. But I like my characters that way. Debbie Proud member of PACMAN (Perfectly Angelic Characters Make Awful Novels) and CRAB (Cut Ron A Break) but not looking for a berth on any SHIP [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Jan 21 04:41:34 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 04:41:34 -0000 Subject: SHIP: The Four Loves: Why R/Hr is preferred to H/Hr In-Reply-To: <20030121034002.54703.qmail@web20413.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50226 Jim (me):"Ron's feelings toward Hermione appear to be transforming from philos to eros, and I only can see eros gaining ascendancy. Obviously that's arguable." Eileen:"Are you saying here that the philos in the R-Hr relationship would be driven out by eros? Because that's not only arguable, it's incomprehensible. Friends who fall in love are still friends. Or am I misunderstanding you?" Yes, you are. Ron and Hermione would be, on Ron's side, Eros first, philos second. That can and does work every day, if friendship has enough strength, but R/H can't be called counterpoint to the romantic paradigm. Eileen:" To a certain extent. I don't subscribe to any of the trio "connecting" so well as many shippers like to say. But I agree that the philos between Harry and Hermione is extremely strong." I believe you've just agreed with me; use whatever term makes you most comfortable. Me again, from the previous post:"Their shared experience will always be the most intense of their lives. Even if Harry and Hermione marry and have five kids together their relationship will still have its roots deeply embedded in the philos and comradeship and sharing of their quest, as if their names had been Frodo and Samantha. Eros will not drive out philos." Eileen:" No, I don't think it would. Why else would I ship R/Hr?" That lost me there. Badly. Jim (me):"Hoping that the philos remains untainted by eros is somehow medieval, a sort of the Lives of the Saints thing, and doesn't seem to have faith philos can stand the competition." Eileen:"You misunderstand me then, since I have hoped no such thing. As noted above, I do ship R/Hr which is eros between two *friends.*" "Eros rules all today and, therefore, I desperately want to see philos in the absence of eros in the place of honour." That's contradictory. Would H/Hr *not* be 'eros between two friends?' And isn't H/Hr as of now extremely strong philos without eros (yet)? Eileen:"The question is not whether Harry or Hermione, or Ron or Hermione would be driven together by the romantic paradigm. The question is whether the HP series will end up promoting the romantic paradigm." The readers will control that, not JKR, no matter how it turns out. Any way it goes, it would still be better than 90% of any other literature I know of. They're all friends, genuine friends. You can't lose. Jim Ferer, who shut his head in the bathroom door five times at mention of the "meta" word From suzloua at hotmail.com Tue Jan 21 05:13:06 2003 From: suzloua at hotmail.com (Susan Atherton) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 05:13:06 -0000 Subject: Lily's sacrifice (was RE: Witchcraft and Wizardry: What do they teach at Hogwarts????) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50227 First of all, sorry if this is a bit late, but I'm catching up on a bunch of digests :) SophineClaire: >> What was so special about Lily's so-called-save-my-baby >> charm that only she could do?? Why not James or Sirius or Remus or >> Peter?. Is it because she is his mother? she's a female? I believe >> this points to something. Maybe you can call it Sex Ed, but maybe >> Witches have the upper hand to men when it comes to magic. Scott Northrup: >Personally. I think you hit the true answer dead on with "Is it because she >is his mother?". Mind you, I am a 20 year old male, but it seems to me that >there is a universal acceptance that a mother's love is love in it's purest >form. I know your mother and father should love you about the same, but >there's just more connection between mother and child than father and child. >That's why Lily was able to use the magic that anyone else would have >probably failed at. Now me: I've heard several people refer to Lily's sacrifice as conscious magic. (I could be wrong, but that's the way I've read many posts, and it's finally annoying me enough to say something!) There was one thread a few weeks back (couldn't find it,sorry) that referenced "Dumbledore's corny speech about love" or something like. People seem to think Lily Potter worked a spell to protect Harry, and, muttering "Loveus foreverus protecto" or similar, stepped in front of Voldy's AK - the one intended for Harry - knowing that like adding the bats wings to a potion, that sacrificing her life for her son would then protect him should the Voldster then attack him. Now this might just be me going quietly mad, but I've always read it as this... Halloween, 1981: Godric's Hollow (canon in quotation marks, from PoA ch 9 and 12 and GoF in the graveyard) Lily and James Potter were enjoying a quiet moment together having just put their son Harry to bed (H in bed - from the movie - JKR's scene - therefore canon ~sticking tongue out at all and ducking the movie-contamination flames~), when all of a sudden there was a ferocious noise outside, followed by a high, cold laugh. Naturally, having been on the run from LV for some time, L&J realised who and what it was. They run into the hall (I imagine them being in the living room for some reason) and Lily pounds up the stairs, as James' last words echo in her ears - "Lily, take Harry and go! It's him! Go! Run! I'll hold him off-". Downstairs, James breaks off as LV busts open the door, cackling his nutty little head off, and AK's his ass. James is now dead, having died to give his wife time to get upstairs (sadly he barely bought her a few seconds, but never mind, he was trying). LV presumably steps over James and calmly walks upstairs, still laughing like a drain (you won't be laughing in a sec, mate) and heads into the nursery, where I assume Lily is standing there panicking because she can't Apparate with a toddler. Lily turns as she hears him, and stands in front of Harry's crib, shielding him, and then starts begging for her son's life. LV pauses for a second for another good chuckle (I know I'm running this one into the ground, but every single time we hear him it's that bloody high cold laugh again!) and then settles down into the business of wiping out the last of the Potters (and, in my view, the last Gryffindor). He's not really that arsed about killing Lily, and might have even promised her to Snape, if you follow TEW EWWW, and so, with victory so close to his grasp (typical Bond villain or what?) has a magnanimous moment, so as Lily is crying "Not Harry! Not Harry! Please - I'll do anything-" he interrupts and tells her "Stand aside, you silly girl, stand aside now..." and rolls up his sleeves for a good bit of AKing. Lily is still screaming at him "Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead, have mercy", and is spoiling his nice little "my-victory-is-now-ensured" moment, so he AK's her too (an AK meant solely for Lily, NOT Harry). With poor Lil now dead on the floor, he steps towards the crib, has one last Ever So Evil cackle, and then says the words he's been waiting to say to James and Harry Potter for a long time - Avada Kedavra. Sadly for old Voldy, he wasn't paying attention to what Lily was saying (too much cackling, if you ask me) and hasn't realised that in telling her to stand aside, he didn't just randomly kill her, he made her sacrifice her life unecessarily. So when he says those happy words, isn't he the victim of a rather unpleasant surprise? Young Harry gets a rather interesting cut on the forehead, and just as Voldy is noticing he looks awfully alive for a cadaver, he is "ripped from his body" etc. Isn't that sad? ~cheesy grin~ Short story over, I will return to my actual post again ;) I believe that Lily Potter, like all young mothers, is idealistic and happy, and loves Harry more than anything in the world, including both James and herself. She thinks nothing of asking for Harry's life in exchange for her own, she would happily give it up if she thought LV would spare Harry. However, either Lily doesn't know or has forgotten that Harry is the one he's come to kill (fair play, she is in a blind panic) and doesn't realise she's offering her life in vain. She doesn't stand in the way of the AK meant for Harry, she just covers Harry with her own body and refuses to move, so rather than go to the trouble of pushing her aside, LV just thinks "screw it" and AK's her. BIG mistake. ~eg~ I think that a lot of people over the years (or at least ONE - how selfish are these wizardly folk?!) must have tried to hustle their loved ones out of the back door while they themselves were being AK'd, but I think LV (or any DE's doing his dirty work) had never told anyone to move before, so they didn't sacrifice themselves needlessly, they just died. But in his short-sightedness (something which is gonna bite him in the ass again, I'd put Galleons on it) he tells Lily to move. This is the key: Voldemort TELLS her to move. (Silly boy.) I think if he'd told James (who tried to protect Lily) to stand aside (not that he would, because if the Gryffindor thing is true, he was out for James too) then AK'ing Lily would have broken his power, and little Harry would have only lost his dad. As it is, he only says it to Lily, who refuses, and so when she dies, her sacrifice and soul gives Harry sort of the best Shield Charm ever (part of the "old magic" invoked by Dumbledore to protect Harry, I'd warrant, and now also unconsciously invoked by Lily). I haven't actually read LOTR, but one of my friends assures me that the reason Gandalf became White rather than remaining Grey (or, you know, dead) was due to his self-sacrifice for the Fellowship. Bit of an Obi-Wan thing too, sacrificing himself for Luke and co to escape. (God, isn't it sad I can only think of those two examples of fantasy stuff!!) Same sort of thing - in sacrificing herself, Lily gets an express ticket to Heaven (hopefully!), and Harry is protected by her very spirit and essence of her complete and unconditional love in death as much as he was protected by her physically in her last moments of her life. (Hmmmm, just occurred to me - might Harry have had trouble killing Sirius in the Shrieking Shack not because he didn't know the curse, as was discussed in another thread, but instead because Crookshanks protecting Sirius from death at Harry's hands subconciously reminds him of his mother protecting him from death at Voldemort's? We know he does have flashes of the green light and the laughing, so there might be more he can't consciously remember...) Anyway, my basic point is this: the way I read it, Lily Potter was scared to death, and panicking her pretty little head off. When you are fretting for the lives of your loved ones, particularly the life of your baby boy, you can't start making conscious self-sacrifice decisions. Lily just did what any good mother would have done (and a high percentage of bad ones) and stepped in front of the bullet. When I was younger and in the front seat of the car with my mum, if she had to brake suddenly, she always instinctively threw out one arm to protect me (actually, the arm that should have been down-gearing and therefore stopping the car, now that I think about it!). She wasn't doing it in a thinking "must protect Susan" way, she was instinctively protecting her young. It was a reflex action. I believe Lily was doing the same thing - she probably wasn't even listening to LV's words, or even thinking about what she was saying, she was just trying to protect Harry instinctively. Gawd, I sound so mushy. Roll on June, I need clarification! ~jumps off Power Of A Mother's Love soap box rather ungracefully and runs onto the HPfGU dancefloor to happy dance with everyone else~ Susan (who is very worried she will not be able to get used to the idea in OotP of Evil!Draco, Evil!Narcissa and R/H shipping after OD'ing on Cassandra Claire's Draco Trilogy) ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Despite constant warnings, you never meet anyone who's had their arm broken by a swan. Men are very like slinkys; a bit pointless but fun to watch fall down stairs. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Tue Jan 21 05:16:38 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 00:16:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: The Four Loves: Why R/Hr is preferred to H/Hr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030121051638.66696.qmail@web20415.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50228 --- "Jim Ferer " wrote: > Ron and Hermione would be, on Ron's side, Eros first, > philos second. That can and does work every day, if > friendship has > enough strength, but R/H can't be called > counterpoint to the romantic > paradigm. No, R/Hr is not counterpoint to the romantic paradigm. But in an R/Hr scenario, the important relationship is not R/Hr. The important relationships are H-Hr and H-R. And that is counterpoint to the romantic paradigm. > I believe you've just agreed with me; use whatever > term makes you most > comfortable. Yes. > Me again, from the previous post:"Their shared > experience will always > be the most intense of their lives. Even if Harry > and Hermione marry > and have five kids together their relationship will > still have its > roots deeply embedded in the philos and comradeship > and sharing of > their quest, as if their names had been Frodo and > Samantha. Eros will > not drive out philos." > > Eileen:" No, I don't think it would. Why else would > I ship R/Hr?" > > That lost me there. Badly. The point is only that I obviously do not believe that eros will drive out philos to be shipping R/Hr, since R/Hr is a pairing of friends. > Jim (me):"Hoping that the philos remains untainted > by eros is somehow > medieval, a sort of the Lives of the Saints thing, > and doesn't seem to > have faith philos can stand the competition." > > Eileen:"You misunderstand me then, since I have > hoped no such thing. > As noted above, I do ship R/Hr which is eros between > two *friends.*" > > "Eros rules all today and, therefore, I desperately > want to see philos > in the absence of eros in the place of honour." > > That's contradictory. Would H/Hr *not* be 'eros > between two friends?' > And isn't H/Hr as of now extremely strong philos > without eros (yet)? Yes, H/Hr would be eros between two friends. But I don't ship R/Hr because it is eros between two friends. That fact makes me like R/Hr, but the real reason I ship R/Hr is because it takes any potential eros out of Harry and Hermione's relationship, which as I've pointed out, is much more important to the reader than Ron and Hermione's relationship. Again, this is a matter of personal preference. And even a matter of subversive personal preference, given that a great part of the population would prefer to see "eros between two friends" as the series' most important relationship. H-Hr as of now is indeed extremely strong philos without eros. I'd really like to see it stay that way. > Eileen:"The question is not whether Harry or > Hermione, or Ron or > Hermione would be driven together by the romantic > paradigm. The > question is whether the HP series will end up > promoting the romantic > paradigm." > > The readers will control that, not JKR, no matter > how it turns out. In some respects, this is true. One only needs to pay a call to the Sugar Quill to see that R/Hr, which is canonically subordinate to Harry and Hermione's relationship and to Harry and Ron's relationship can become of higher importance to the fans. Such is the nature of the fandom. Just as I usually focus on characters who are not really at all that important. Still, there is the text. And while we intrepret it differently, it does objectively exist. Harry will either end up in love with Hermione or not. I'd prefer that he not, because I think I've had enough of eros always hogging the spotlight. > Any way it goes, it would still be better than 90% > of any other > literature I know of. They're all friends, genuine > friends. You > can't lose. And that's true as well. I don't believe that JKR would for a minute consider half the conclusions I would like, but I'm enthusiastic about the end, anyway. (Though, I've made a reputation for myself with the line, "Trust no author until they're finished!) > Jim Ferer, who shut his head in the bathroom door > five times at > mention of the "meta" word I am sorry. I was only joking by bringing up that reprehensible world. My profound apologies! Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Jan 21 05:56:30 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 05:56:30 -0000 Subject: another flint? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50229 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jomamaumd " wrote: > Don't know if this has been discussed yet, but I think JKR slipped > up in the location of Myrtle's bathroom. > > Hermione says at the Deathday Party (COS p.132, American paperback): > "She haunts one of the toilets in the girls' bathroom on the first > floor." > > Then, only 6 pages later, "Harry hurtled around the second floor, > ...edited... > > Clearly, Moaning Myrtle's bathroom has to be on the second floor > next to the scene of the attack, as the water trail came from > there - so the location given on page 132 must be a flint. > - jomama bboy_mn: We are not the victums of a mistake but of language. I haven't read the UK edition, so I don't know if this inconsistency is in them, but the British first floor is not the American first floor. I think the British say, 'ground floor, first floor, second floor' for a three story building. Where as, we in the US say, 'first floor, second floor, and third floor'. Although someone in the US might use the term Ground Floor, it means the samething as first floor. My impression is that the attack and Moaning Myrtle's bathroom are on the second level or the second story, not the ground floor. Again, to a Brit, that is the first floor. Anybody with a UK edition who would like to check that out for us? bboy_mn From joy_the_lemur at yahoo.com Tue Jan 21 07:17:09 2003 From: joy_the_lemur at yahoo.com (joy_the_lemur ) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 07:17:09 -0000 Subject: another flint? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50230 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jomamaumd " > wrote: > > Don't know if this has been discussed yet, but I think JKR slipped > > up in the location of Myrtle's bathroom. > > > > Hermione says at the Deathday Party (COS p.132, American paperback): > > "She haunts one of the toilets in the girls' bathroom on the first > > floor." > > > > Then, only 6 pages later, "Harry hurtled around the second floor, > > ...edited... > > > > Clearly, Moaning Myrtle's bathroom has to be on the second floor > > next to the scene of the attack, as the water trail came from > > there - so the location given on page 132 must be a flint. > > - jomama > > bboy_mn: > We are not the victums of a mistake but of language. > [Snippage of differences in UK and US concepts of floors] > > Anybody with a UK edition who would like to check that out for us? > > bboy_mn No problem. 'She haunts the girls' toilet on the first floor,' said Hermione. (UK COS p 101) Harry hurtled around the whole of the second floor, Ron and Hermione panting behind him, not stopping until they turned a corner into the last, deserted passage. (UK COS p 105) 'Remember all that water on the floor? Where did that come from? Someone's mopped it up.' [Ron points out it was level with a particular door. He manages to stop himself from opening the door.] 'Can't go in there,' said Ron gruffly, 'that's a girl's toilet.' 'Oh, Ron, there won't be anyone in there,' said Hermione, standing up and coming over. 'That's Moaning Myrtle's place.' (UK COS p 117 -118) Looks like a missed detail indeed. Do the American versions actually refer to a difference between ground floors and first floors? I just glanced at these passages in my US paperback of COS and when Harry's chasing the mysterious voice, he starts down where the dungeons are and he runs up into the entrance hall, which I presume to be on the "ground" floor. However, he then sprints up from there to the "first" floor and runs up to the "second" floor. So in common US terms, Moaning Myrtle's bathroom would be on the 3rd floor, even if in the US version, they say 2nd floor. I dislike this arbitrary and inconsistent "translation" thing going on. -Joy From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Jan 21 07:37:00 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 07:37:00 -0000 Subject: They're not Idiots, they're Kids. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50231 "They're just 14 year old boys." Well, it's true, they are just 14 year old boys. As far as 14 year old Hermione, we are seeing the classic girls mature faster. Harry and Ron are 14 year old boys, and more important, they are not especially sophisticated, knowledgable, mature, or experienced 14 year old boys. Harry has lead a very sheltered life. He has no role models for functional relationships. He's never had any friends before. Having been abused, he is very introspective, emotionally guarded, and because it's safe, somewhat of a loner. Ron has slightly better models for relationships in his parents, but farm life is somewhat isolated. Even for modern farmers (meaning people who live out in the country) the kids who are availabe for you to play with are your brothers and sisters. You don't get a lot of exposure to other people, or outside influences. This would seem reasonably true of the Weasleys. Transporting a pack of wild kids to 'play dates' is not easy or likely, and Mr. and Mrs. Weasley don't seem to have a huge social life. Country kids are generally not as sophsitcated as city kids. Country kids don't have the same range of exposure to a larger more complex world and they don't get same level of knowledge and experience as a city kid. That's life, always has been. Hermione is tettering on the edge between playground relationships and 'high school' relationships. Harry and Ron are still entrenched in playground relationships including playground crushes. There behavior, especially Ron's would certainly qualify as childish. Hermione, who is slightly more mature, isn't stringing anybody along, she is just going through her normal life and taking it as it comes. Although, she is somewhat embarassed when the subject of a /boy/ liking her comes up. Victor approached her, and she reacted normally (in her polite reserved Hermione way) to that approach. I'm sure she felt some pride that she of all girls had gotten the most famous and desirable guy at the school, and all she had to do to get him was be herself. That had to be gratifying. As far as Hermione and Ron, Hermione is not stringing Ron along. Other than being a '/boy/', Hermione doesn't have a clue what's going on with Ron until the very end. I'm sure she is starting to see that he is acting strange, but I don't think it really hits her why until that blazing row after the ball. If either Ron or Harry had ask her, I'm sure as a friend, she would have loved to go with either, but considering Ron's typical immature 14 year old boy actions (best troll who will have him), and the fact that he didn't ask Hermione until he was desperate and scrapping the bottom of the barrel, that probably and rightly didn't make her feel too good. Besides, she already had a date with the best boy in town. After that ego boost then having her best friends treat her as a last deperate resort, I think she reacted pretty normal under the circumstances. Ron on the other hand, is in playground mode. He is in deep denial of his feeling both toward Hermione and in general. When he sees Hermione and Viktor together, he is angry and he doesn't know why, or at least, refuses to admit to himself why. Certainly, we have all seen people in our lives who were angry about one thing, and refusing to admit it, found all kinds of other reasons and excuses to express their anger. That's all Ron did. He was angry and he groped for any excuse he could find, except the real one, to express it. He expressed his feeling of anger in the only way his playground mind would allow. He acted like an immature 14 year old boy, because that's what he is. Harry is attracted to Cho, we all know that, but Harry, like Ron, is still in playground mode. Why? Because he's still affaid to admit it. When guys cross the threshold from 'playground' where they are afraid to reveal their attractions into 'high school'; they sit around in groups for hours talking about all the girls (or guys) they thing are hot. They talk about them the way they talk about all the hot new cars (or brooms in this case) they would like to have. If a man is.... well, it a girl is lucky, at some point the men in her life cross another threshold where women cease to be hormone drive commodites, and become real people. Sadly, I must say that some men never mature enough to cross that threshold; but the guys who do make great lovers. They're not selfish and self-centered. Preliminary conclusion- Harry is a kid. Not ready for relationships yet. Ron is a kid. Not ready for relationships yet, but has a monster crush on Hermione. If you read the books, once they become friends, Ron has always expressed greater concern for Hermione than Harry. It's expressed subtly, but having read GoF, when you go back and reread the series, it stands out. Hermione is entering 'high school' relationships, although she isn't completely there yet. Right now she is just going about her life taking it as it comes. Most certainly, Viktor's interest and affection was a big boost to her womanly ego. Perhaps even the first time Hermione allowed herself to view herself as a woman rather than one of the guys. I'm sure that was a strong push toward the threshold. To those who speculate that Hermione is 'playing' anyone, you will never convince me of that. Hermione isn't that premeditated in he emotions or relationships. Final conclusion- They're kids. They are going to go through a crazy confusing infuriating adolecent struggle of complex on and off relationships that change faster than dirty socks. Everyone will be infatuated with someone else, and too blind to see who is infatuated with them. Once the smoke has clear, and the hormones have mellowed, they will all be friends again, and life will go on. That 'Kiss', that fateful kiss at the train station. So what's up with that? Hermione had been holding in a secret, a secret that was ready to bust out of her, but he held it back. On the train she revealed it; she caught Rita Skeeter, and Rita would never hurt Harry or anyone else again. (or so Hermione thinks) Once again, Voldemort had tried to kill Harry and failed. For the first time, Harry was able to talk about it on the train, and relieve himself of that burden. Harry, against all odds, had won the Tri-Wizard's Tournement. With the excitement of cursing the Dark-Trio for their insulting remark toward Cedric, Hermione was positively giddy by the time the train pulled in the station. In her bubbling 'we did it again' excitement, her thrill that Harry was OK now and had won, her capture of the nasty Rita Skeeter, she kissed him on the cheek in front of Ron and all her other friends in a train station filled with people (and parents); hardly, what you would call romanic. I think it was an excited kiss that celebrated the fact that once again Harry was OK on all fronts. Realistically, JKR is not going to get deep into the intimate parts of relationship, not even the superficially intimate parts. Don't expect to see Hermione and anyone snogging in the closet. The play on relationships is the confused tormented and troubled times of adolesence that we all look back on and laugh. Turbulent adolesence for a while, friends forever. That's my story and I'm stick to it. REALLY! bboy_mn From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Tue Jan 21 07:59:18 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 23:59:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] give shipping peace a chance [was] Real characters In-Reply-To: <20030121003029.1384.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030121075918.51865.qmail@web21104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50232 yours truly, in small part: > Putting characters under the > microscope for detailed > examinations is, well, why I > still lurk here after so many > months. I certainly don't > advocate putting characters > on pedestals and altars, but > going to the extreme opposite > of beatification in demonizing > certain characters for the sake > of winning an argument is more > rhetorically exciting than > textually insightful. Eileen wrote: > Oh dear, do I see a pattern here? > > You can write a nine part > series demonizing Crouch Sr. > and no-one raises an eyebrow, > but write a post calling > Harry or Ron inconsiderate > and the writer is assumed > to be doing it for the sake > of winning an argument, or > because of their ship. I expressed no assumption about your motives or your ship when I wrote the above as a part of my reply. It's just that what you said about not considering it a bad thing to trash characters led me to think...and too much time on my hand + thinking = posting. :) I did mention that I don't think you egregious, didn't I? If I didn't consider it done now. My point still stands though - shipping wars are waged though elimination of rivals' can(n)ons more often than not - and that leads to a less than complete understanding of the texts. I swear, it's there in the snipped verbiage. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ HPforGrownups/message/50207 Your point stands too - you ain't one of them demonizers. Pax? If you read that post as my being specific about you or Ebony, then let me dispel any confusion: those are general comments about the shipping wars and those whose conduct lead the conversations away from deeper understanding of canon through the insistence on focusing only on that which serves their purposes. If you don't do that, then I am not talking about you. It's just that your comment about trashing the characters led me to think of the flattening and narrowing of the interpretation of JKR's full-blown characters. In regards to the nine part series demonizing Crouch Sr., which I didn't have time to post about then (or the weeks after), I'll now throw in my one thought (again): if we left all hearsay on the wayside and take Crouch Sr. at his word, he is a man who remained faithful and abiding to a wife who gave birth to someone else's son. Besides, you haven't failed to say what should be said in response, y'know. Faster than me at any rate. So, what ship is Crouch Sr. an anchor of anyway? Which ship would benefit from the demonization of Crouch Sr.? Eileen: > Ebony claims not to be > comfortable with R/Hr *because* > of her uncomfortableness with > Ron. The truth is, that I'm > uncomfortable with both Harry > and Ron. And I claim that I > felt this way before I even > considered shipping in the > Potter books. > > Why would anyone doubt our claims? Not I. Really! Eileen: > Because Harry and Ron are > popular characters? And > attacking them is just not done? Not at all. But not seeing them as complex characters is problematic. Not actually your problem, per se. But in your seafaring voyages surely you have met those who do insist on reducing canon to simplistic terms. Eileen: > And people who claim not > to wholeheartedly and > unreservedly like them > must have some motivation > other than their instinctive > reaction to the text? I'd answer that IF I am guilty of holding that opinion... > Shades of the great Twins > discussion here. Didn't have time to reply on that thread then either. I know, the perpetually late me. The fact that some people are plagued by disquiet in the reading of the twins as bullies says a lot about JKR's understanding of the fine line between boisterous and bullying and how that line lies at different points for each person. It also says a lot about the complexity of her characters. Eileen: > So, in conclusion, I think > Harry and Ron are inconsiderate, > and I would not be friends with > them in real life most probably, > not least because they wouldn't > care to be friends with me. :-) > They annoy me terribly. As > characters in a book, I love them, > and hope to see them mature. I second that emotion. Eileen: > I don't see how that position > is rhetorical, or how any > other person's like, dislike, > adoration of, atttraction to, > or lukewarmness about any given > character should be assumed > rhetorical. I have not made that assumption. Could you read the rest of that post? My protest is of those who go looking for can(n)on having already made up their minds. NOT of those who gather all evidence first and then come to an informed decision that is all-encompassing. Not an easy distinction to make, between those two schools of thought, I'm afraid. But having discernment is not a crime. * * * Since I was too general in that last post, I'll raise an example of shipping bias: CONNIVING CHICK. Try this one on for size: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ HPforGrownups/message/43157 The shipping bias has led to demonizing the current focus for Harry's affections, over and over again in this fandom. It's not just the suppositions that I object to - it's the support cited too. Or rather, the lack of thereof. So, would Cho have to become evil if H/G is fait accompli? What if she's red-headed with freckles and turns out to be the 'missing' Weasley child, looking more like this listee than not? I finally got around to typing my thoughts on this today (sorry Maria, didn't mean to blindside you with this): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ HPforGrownups/message/50173 And that, is really the point of my ranting on about the trashing of characters, which has a much less sinister connotation in your mind than mine, I dare say. Perhaps this is where the tangle in our lines of communication lies. Petra a n :) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Jan 21 08:06:17 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:06:17 -0000 Subject: another flint? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50233 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "joy_the_lemur " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve " > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jomamaumd " > > wrote: > > > Don't know if this has been discussed yet, but I think JKR > > > slipped up in the location of Myrtle's bathroom. > > > > > > Hermione says at the Deathday Party (COS p.132, American > > > paperback):> "She haunts one of the toilets in the girls' > > > bathroom on the first floor." > > > > > > Then, only 6 pages later, "Harry hurtled around the second > > > floor, ...edited... > > > > > > Clearly, Moaning Myrtle's bathroom has to be on the second floor > > > ...edited... > > > - jomama > > > > bboy_mn: > > We are not the victums of a mistake but of language. > > > > [Snippage of differences in UK and US concepts of floors] > > > > > Anybody with a UK edition who would like to check that out for us? > > > > bboy_mn > > No problem. > > 'She haunts the girls' toilet on the first floor,' said Hermione. > (UK COS p 101) > > Harry hurtled around the whole of the second floor, ...(UK COS > p 105) > > ...edited... > > Looks like a missed detail indeed. > > So in common US terms, Moaning Myrtle's bathroom would be on the 3rd > floor, even if in the US version, they say 2nd floor. > > I dislike this arbitrary and inconsistent "translation" thing going > on. > > -Joy bboy_mn: Joy, it looks like you are right. I reread some of the parts in my US edition (paperback) and they seem to consistently use the same UK references. In the front door (ground level) up the marble staircase (first floor) up another staircase to Moaning Myrtle's bathroom (second floor). That would make Hermione's statement the FLINT. If Hermione were mixing terms, she would have said second or third floor, not first floor. All other references seem to point to the third level/second floor as the correct location. So, I guess it is a mistake. No one at the publishers seems to have caught it though. bboy_mn From kelleythompson at gbronline.com Tue Jan 21 08:27:10 2003 From: kelleythompson at gbronline.com (Kelley ) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:27:10 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Announcement list changes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50234 Hello everyone-- Your friendly HPfGU list administrators would like to tell you about a change we're making to our Announcements group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPfGU-Announcements/ Currently, posts made to this group are on view only to members of the group. To make these posts accessible to more people, we are going to change this. Starting February 1, the Announcement group's messages will be made public. What this means is that anyone who would like to read the posts there will be able to do so without having to join that group. This also means that information in posts in that group can come up when people are searching the web (Google searches and so forth), so if anyone who has posted to the Announcements list would prefer to not have their posts available to the public, please take this opportunity to delete them. Anyone can delete their own messages, and as there are only 622 posts there at the moment, searching for a post you've made is quite simple. If you have any questions or need help doing this, please contact myself (kelleythompson@ gbronline.com) or the Mods as a group (MagicalMods@ yahoogroups.com). Thanks! --Kelley, for the Mods From starropal at hotmail.com Tue Jan 21 03:06:15 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 21:06:15 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Real characters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50235 Amy Z: >We're like the Donner Party at this >point. Not quite yet. Admittedly, I'm new to Harry Potter but I've been a fan of other things and I've seen character bashing in its lowest, ugliest 'why hate a fictional character so much?!' form. I thought Ebony's essay was an interesting read, not because I'm a shipper one way or the other, but as _a_ view of character interaction. Amy: >I'm not suggesting that we stop criticizing characters. ..... >I know I'm echoing what many have said when I say that I love most of >these characters *because* they're imperfect. Considering the size of the Harry Potter universe, I've always been impressed with JKR's ability to make almost all the characters interesting and unique (including extras). Even characters I don't particularly like or notice are worth at least one good pondering over (if for no other reason than JKR likes to come out of left field with character twists). With these well thought out personalities being steered by such a capable author, there is bound to be criticizing, disecting, rehashing, and, yes, a little trashing of characters. Later on Marina said: >Maybe *that's* the real reason for Snape's popularity. His flaws are so numerous and varied that we're only just now beginning to exhaust them Yes and debating greasy hair is a perfect sign of that. ^_^ Star Opal who likes sinking her teeth into BANGy theories and character analysis, but not really SHIPping _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From starropal at hotmail.com Tue Jan 21 03:48:44 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 21:48:44 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The REAL Reason Snape's Hair Is Greasy! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50236 >In a message dated 1/19/2003 9:46:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, >susannahlm at yahoo.com writes: > > > And, I mean, it doesn't have to be reaction to Lily's untimely death, > > if you don't like that sort of thing. It could be reaction to his > > time as a DE, or as a spy, or because he's SOULSUCKED SNAPE. > > Whatever. > > > > So maybe I should revise that. > > > > 5. He just doesn't care, and why would he, after [insert trauma of > > choice]? The only problem is, whatever is up with Snape's hair, it had to be before or during school. "Slimy, oily, greasy haired kid he was." says Sirius in GoF ch 27. Sandy said: >Perhaps he doesn't care about his appearance. But I don't even know if I'd >agree with that. His style is out of step with everyone else, perhaps, but >it >is calculated for something... to make him intimidating to children? He doesn't care about his appearance or what people think of him. "All the other teachers thought Snape was trying to stop Gryffindor from winning, he *did* make himself unpopular..." (P/SS ch 17) He does what he does to get the end result whether its keeping Harry from being attacked during Quidditch match, or having students fear him (so I think I half agree with you). How he looks when doing so doesn't bother him. Sandy: >I do believe he's mighty cynical and very likely has plenty of regrets, but >I >don't think that's what makes his hair greasy... I revert to my Greasy Hair Curse theory. In a world where there are spells to make people puke up slugs, I say "why not?" Star Opal who has never ponder the magical effects with greasy hair before. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8 is here: Try it free* for 2 months http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup From darryl_oneill at yahoo.ca Tue Jan 21 05:02:13 2003 From: darryl_oneill at yahoo.ca (darryl_oneill ) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 05:02:13 -0000 Subject: Mugwump is appropriate for Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50237 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Judy M. Ellis " wrote: > "Dan" wrote: >> > >In 1884, the Republican presidential candidate James Blaine was > >linked to a corrupt deal. Some Republicans ditched their party for > >the Democrats because they were so put off by Blaine's lack of > >honesty. [They were called] "Mugwumps," meaning "Holier- Than- > >Thou." Odd how Dumbledore, in SS is credited with being the Supreme > >Mugwump... > The word itself is > American, however, derived from the Algonquin (Indian) dialect *mogki- > -* meaning "great" and *--omp* meaning "chief." [Webster's Third New > International Dictionary] > Although, since 1884, it is rarely used outside of the American > political scene, it's primary non-political meaning is simply "a > person of importance." Jo Rowling might have come across it in a > compendium of unusual words, since she collects unusual words to use > as names. I found this link on the web which investigates English > from a Brit perspective. It investigates the origins and meanings of > the word more thoroughly. > :-) Judy > http://www.quinion.com/words/weirdwords/ww-mug1.htm I had read the definition from the link that Judy provides quite some time ago and I thought that it was very appropriate. Here is the section "Mugwump was brought into English in the early nineteenth century as a humorous term for a boss, bigwig, grand panjandrum, or other person in authority, often one of a minor and inconsequential sort. " Dumbledore is someone of great importance but he does not take himself too seriously. I could see him listing this title jokingly along with all of his other titles. Not only the boss of minor things but the supreme boss of minor things. Someone else may have copied the title down without knowing that it was a joke and next thing you know your on a wizarding card. Darryl From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Tue Jan 21 09:41:11 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 01:41:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: eros at first sight [was] nautical hazards//judgments//Cho In-Reply-To: <20030121023644.72687.qmail@web40501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030121094111.66397.qmail@web21104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50238 Maria: > But I don't think I like Harry with > anyone. I remember that I got very > mad the second I read the line "She > was shorter than Harry by about a > head, and Harry couldn't help > noticing, nervous as he was, that > she was extremely pretty. She > smiled at Harry as the teams faced > each other behind their captains, > and he felt a slight lurch in the > region of his stomach that he > didn't think had anything to do > with nerves." (PoA, "GRYFFINDOR > VERSUS RAVENCLAW"). > I don't know why You do now! Molly'd be proud... Maria: > - it's *not* > because I want Harry for myself > , or have a specific preference > for whom he will end up with, but > since then I've always disliked Cho > Chang Petra: > Does this mean you dislike Cho solely > because Harry has a crush on her? > > How do those of you who feel this > way about Cho reconcile your > poor opinion of her with the book's > theme of the importance of choices? > In other words, what choices has she > made that led you to dislike her so? Maria: > OK... I thought about what Petra Pan said for a > while, and came up with a possible reason for > why I dislike Cho Chang. I am still not sure if > that is the real reason, but that comes much > closer than anything else. > > First off, I dont dislike Cho because of what > she is like I dont know what she is like. I > dont like her as Harrys romantic interest. > > You see, I hated to see Harry melt like ice > cream in the sun as soon as he laid eyes on > her. For two and a half years of his life we > watched Harry, Ron, Hermione, Ginny and many > other people grow and develop, weve grown to > love some of them and dislike others *for a > reason*, and here comes Cho Chang of whom we > *and Harry* know *positively nothing* (at the > moment) except that she is extremely pretty > and Harry falls for her like Romeo for Juliet. > In GoF, Cho Chang is still as pretty as before, > but we find out that shes nice. So? There are > loads of nice people out there, and the fact > that Harry knows that Cho is nice doesnt mean > he knows any more about her than he did when he > first saw her. Petra: > In other words, what choices has she made > that led you to dislike her so? Maria: > Cho didnt make any choices. Thats part of why > I dont like her. Shes just this neutral > character in the background that for some > reason occupies Harrys thoughts and *this > annoys me*. Petra Pan: > How do those of you who feel this > way about Cho reconcile your > poor opinion of her with the > book's theme of the importance of > choices? Maria: > Its not a poor opinion of Cho. Its > the inability to have an opinion. Y'know, this is sooo much clearer than "I've always disliked Cho Chang." ;) Petra Pan: > Neither Cho nor Ginny are intrinsically > undeserving people. In order for me to read > them as such, I would have to NARROW and > FLATTEN my viewpoint. Maria: > I dont read Cho as an undeserving person. She > might be great, she might not be, but before I > know her better, I wont like her. Here's where we differ - I'm no Pollyanna and I can be ticked off very easily sometimes, but I'm opposite on this issue. Which is why it never occurred to me to read your "I've always disliked Cho Chang" as "Since I don't know her, I will dislike her until she's proven herself because this is my MO...and I'm sticking to it." Maria: > do you think it might be because she's not > from Gryffindor? I wonder... Petra Pan: > Perhaps the answer to this may shed some > light: do you dislike every > non-Gryffindor? Do you hold a prejudice > against any other non-Gryffindor? > > So, how can such dislike be explained? Or > justified? To have a strong opinion, positive > or negative, about people we barely know is the > definition of prejudice after all. Maria: > OK, I dont dislike every non-Gryffindor, and I > dont dislike Cho per se, but rather the idea > of Harry melting into a puddle of goo as soon > as she looks at him, since, as you justly > pointed out, we barely know her. So thats not > prejudice . Hope you see why I was confused. Interesting transference of responsibility though, eh? Do you still hold Cho responsible for Harry falling for her at first sight? Most people do place the blame at the feet of the female though I can't find any support for doing so. One possible exception - perhaps as part veela, Fleur is capable of turning on and off her innate attraction of male attention. Impossible to tell at this point. So, do you dislike Harry for his 'love at first sight,' a physical reaction that he has no control over? Tossing aside for now the internal logic of the books, do you dislike JKR for writing that scene the way she did? Petra, re: H/G arguments: > Seeing that you've just made a case for H/G > (using principles that do not > apply solely to Ginny, BTW) are you sure you're > not a closet H/G shipper? > > > 'Cause your earlier statement "I don't think I > like Harry with anyone" now reads like a > description of an opinion you...uhm...no longer > hold. And therefore no longer justifies your > dislike of Cho. Maria: > See, I hate the idea of Harry/Cho *now* - but I > might grow to like it if we have some more Cho > in the foreground. This is where you had lost me on that last post - I am not sure from where I could have had this understanding of your point of view. Maria: > I am OK with Harry/Ginny > *now* - but I wont be disappointed if it never > works out. I dont like Harry/Hermione > because I like Ron/Hermione. But other than > that, I honestly dont care whom Harry is with > - *now*. I might change my opinion later. I > would, however, like to see more Ginny > development in the series. For her own sake, yes, absolutely. Maria: > And I honestly dont mean to offend anyone who > believes in love at first sight. I do believe > in it, I just dont think that what Harry feels > *is* love. THAT topic would be rich fodder for another thread... Petra a n :) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 21 11:11:13 2003 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82 ) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:11:13 -0000 Subject: McGonagall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50239 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rsteph1981 " wrote: > Why, oh why, did Dumbledore send her away before Sirius transformed > and Severus was given his assignment? Is she trustworthy? Is she > skilled enough to be of use (okay, we all know the answer to that > one)? Me: I not so certain that she doesn't know already. After all she showed no supprised of being asked to take a dog to Dumbledores office (I don't know if he asks this of her before he send Snape to get Winky I don't have the book on me)- one has to ask why she didn't seemed supprise - I got a suspeciion that maybe she already knew what/ who the dog was. I wouldn't be supprised to find out that she knew that the dog was an animagus even if she didn't know who the animagus was - after all she is one herself, and I'm beginning to wonder if an animagus can spot another animagus in animal form more easily than an non-animagus. Dumbledore has a reason ton keep Sirius' identity from Snape until it is absolutely necessary for him tell him as Snape is more than a bit angry that Sirius got away, his reaction to the news that Sirius was the dog in the hospital wing wasn't that great but he had to accept it and get on with things without flying off of the handle due to the circumstances. As McGonogall does not have such strong personal feelings against Sirius and it is very rare for her to 'fly off of the handle' (in fact the only time we seen her do this is after Barty was kissed) I wouldn't be supprised if Dumbledore had told her before the start of the third task who/ what the dog waiting by Hagrids hut was. > I know that everything that's happening is secret, but why would > Dumbledore keep it a secret from her? Why isn't she part of the old > gang? Opinions on this are split some suggest the fact that she found out about the Potters deaths and where Dumbledore was going to take Harry from Hagrid rather than Dumbledore as evidence that she was not. Theres also that pesky detail that she say you - know -wh rather than calling him Voldemort too. Although I'm pretty certain she was and is on Dumbledore's side. Just my opinion. Michelle From theo_kestrel at yahoo.com Tue Jan 21 11:22:11 2003 From: theo_kestrel at yahoo.com (theo_kestrel ) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:22:11 -0000 Subject: Question about Book 5 discussion Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50240 With the announcement of Book 5's release date, and all the wild speculation about the two released excerpts from the book, I've been wondering about something. I know I'm jumping the gun here by several months, but please bear with me. Okay-June 21, 2003 rolls around. From what I understand, it will be released on that day in most(all?) English-speaking countries(not sure about concurrent release in other languages), which means New Zealanders and Aussies will get their greedy little hands on the book first, then the Brits, then us Yanks will get it last (*sob*). I know not everyone's going to get it at midnight, but many people are, and quite a few will probably engage in a marathon reading session, eschewing sleep until they've finished the book. Others will wait for their online purchases to arrive a few days later, and may wish to enjoy the book slowly, like a piece of swiss chocolate that you nibble on bit by bit. Anyways, my question is this- When will it be appropriate to start discussing the actual content of "The Order of the Phoenix" on this group? Immediately? June 22? A two-week moratorium until discussion begins? I'm curious, since I wasn't around when GoF was released, and I don't know how the list handled it, or even if it existed in its current form back then. I've been a member of this group for some time now, but I feel somewhat overwhelmed by the number of things the list members have churned through and feel woefully lacking when it comes to actual participation in all the wild and wacky topics of discussion that come up-everything seems to refer back to other things discussed in the misty beginnings of HP fandom, and with the release of the new book I think I'll feel more on even footing with everyone else here, with fresh new canon to dissect and make speculations on. Oldies? Moderators? Anyone? Thanks- theo_kestrel From john at queerasjohn.com Tue Jan 21 12:48:53 2003 From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 12:48:53 +0000 Subject: ADMIN: Question about Book 5 discussion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50241 *Apparates in en route to semester exam* Hi folks, The Mods have been discussing what to do about Book 5 since last year. We've got a bunch of solutions for various issues which the OOP release will raise, and we'll be letting you know about them just as soon as we've finalised them. Magically yours, --John, Magical Moderator With Rock #47 *disApparates in puff of silver and purple smoke* ______________________________________ Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com "There's nowt as queer as folk." --English proverb ______________________________________ From amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jan 21 14:54:36 2003 From: amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk (amy_marblefeet ) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:54:36 -0000 Subject: TBAY: George's Bar is Safe Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50242 There was a distant flash of lightning from the approaching storm and Amy started her stop watch. She had done the tourist thing and lurked around the bay for a while, bought some badges and visited the boats but now it was time to enter George's Tavern. She pushed the doors open hopping to make a dramatic entrance but there were precious few people inside. Many were out storm proofing their vessels and making room for (hopefully) some new and shiny cannon. However, there were some important looking figures in the corner discussing the storm on the horizon. They seemed extremely confident that they were perfectly safe and Amy had to agree, one of them was, after all, Captain Cindy and it was quite inconceivable that the next book would not bang. Amy took a seat at the bar and waited for George to come over and server her. While she was waiting she couldn't help over hearing the tail end of the conversation. > Cindy had leaned in closer to her companions and lowered her > voice. "Now as for *that* guy," she muttered, jerking a thumb at > George, busy polishing glasses behind the bar, "I'm not taking any > bets on *him.*" Amy sat at the bar of the Royal George and tried not to smile at the Captains last remark. She turned her head from the rather interesting SHIPping conversation that was going on so Cindy wouldn't see her roll her eyes as well. Amy didn't think that it would be very wise to insult one of the biggest characters in Theory Bay, and the owner of the Big Bang Destroyer no less. George looked worried, but finished cleaning his glasses like the professional he was and came over to serve Amy. Amy however had got a little distracted by the site of George bending over to remember why she was there. "Are you Ok? Can I get you a drink?" George asked her. "Who me," Amy mumbled, wowed by the effect the Snape theory was having on her (was it like this with all newbees?). "Oh, me I'm fine. And I am completely not worried about you either." Amy suddenly realised that last sentence had not made any sense, so she decided to elaborate. "It is quite ridiculous to suggest that you, George, are in any trouble at all, well, at least from the fifth book that is. What was that quote from OoP again? Dumbledore telling Harry what he should have told him five years ago because he has a right to know everything now. "Harry ,however did not ask about Snape five years ago. He asked "but why would Voldemort want to kill me?" five years ago. Five years ago, the only mention he made of his Potions Professor was to ask if it was true that he hated his father and if they were in the same year at school. It was in his last year that Harry asked Dumbledore what made Snape turn to the side of light and what made the Headmaster still trust him. "Oh, JKR has plenty stored for the man who "has a past with a capital P" and she doesn't want to, and probably wont, tell us till book seven. If the only reason book five is so thick is because the entire back story of Snape is revealed form birth to bang" -George looks a little worried about this word so Amy quickly moves on-" prank and past, Vampires to Voldemort, love, loss and possibly LOLLIPOPS, Deatheaters and ... and ..." Amy searched for a word that began with a 'D'. "What the hell you get my point. Besides, everyone knows that Snape is the most three dimensional character in the whole series. Why would JKR suddenly throw light on the shadow, turn grey to light, transform darkness into..." George coughs subtly but Amy gets the hint. "Treat 'em mean keep 'em keen," Amy finished. George still looked a little worried. And even better looking ,Amy thought, now that he had a vulnerable streak and even larger puppy dog eyes. Outside there was a distant rumble of thunder. Amy looked down at her stop watch and did some quick calculations on the back of a coaster. "Hmm, twenty two weeks and counting," she said to herself. George looked up from the bar. "Don't worry. You and this fabulous bar here is going to be quite safe till at least book seven. The character you are a theory for, however, is quite another story," Amy smirked and tossed her hair behind her shoulder. "And, yes, I would love a Brandy." Amy (Who, when she first tried to post this was deeply ashamed to find out she had spelt George's name wrong in the title. Oh the shame!) From gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 21 14:55:58 2003 From: gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com (gingersnape1966 ) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:55:58 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Ahoy! Fourth Man! (was Re: TBAY: Fourth Man Takes A Dive) In-Reply-To: <20030121010537.6534.qmail@web20419.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50243 An unnoticed lurker in TBAY nervously steps up to Captain Cindy and requests persission to speak. She interprets Captain Cindy's response for a "yes". "Allow me to introduse myself" she says, pulling a rubber duckie from her bag. "I am Ginger, new to these shores, but wanting to float my tiny theory." She gestures towards the Duckie. "I call him TNT, for Third Nott Theory. He has been a pet of mine for some time, and in my lurking moments, I have found your Fourth Man hovercraft to be floating in similar waters. Indeed, I almost abandoned him and requested permission to climb aboard. "We all agree that the Lestranges are 2 of the people in the Longbottom trial, and that it is odd that the fourth man is not mentioned as being present, in Azkaban, or is otherwise eulogized as being 'dead in the service'. "I turned my attention to some mentioned by name, and Nott stood out as being familiar, due to my wondering about the significance of a Nott in Harry's grade. I realized that the Nott in the graveyard was described as 'stooped' and that this usually implied elderly, so would not likely have been a father. "And then it hit me: What if the significance of the Nott in Harry's grade was not the significant part? What if it was significant that this Nott was in Neville's grade? Neville was sorted shortly before Nott, and being greeted by his new house, would not have paid any attention until Parvati was sorted, joining him at the Griffindor table. We have oft wondered why Gryffs and Ravens have no classes together. We have also wondered why Nott has been silent. "Now back to the stooped Nott in the graveyard. When his master passed him, he said 'My Lord, I prostrate myself before you...' which made me think he talks like a lawyer. "And so TNT was formed. One of the four in the Longbottom trial is describes as 'a thickset man who stared blankly up at Crouch'. Suppose this fourth man was the son of the one in the graveyard. His father may have told him to stare blankly, realizing that the trial of the four together was a loss, and hoping to free him later with his flowery words, either begging Imperious, or shock at being accused of such a crime. Crouch Sr. was moved aside into his current department, and the father approached Crouch's successor and won his case. This man would have sat in Azkaban waiting for his release, been of a weak constitution, and died an unremarkable death, thus being neither eulogized as 'dead in the service', mentioned with the Lestranges, or expected to show up. "The Dark Lord, a Slytherin himself, would have appreciated the ability to lie through one's teeth, but would have 'expected better in the future'. "I am still speculating on the youngest Nott. Innocent bystander keeping a low profile? (Silent Nott, Holy Nott) Perhaps a girl with whom Neville may come into contact in a pre-OWL study course? Interesting possibilities abound, but I shan't bore you with them when you have active imaginations of your own. "No, I have wanted to float my duckie since my arrival, but I wanted to know if it is seaworthy, and I ask you, if you please, to point out any holes in its rubber." Any input would be greatly appreciated, and I will be keeping my eye on Dolohov. Thank you for listening to my rambling. I am so glad to get this off my chest. Bon Voyage, Ginger From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue Jan 21 16:01:18 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr ) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 16:01:18 -0000 Subject: Snape as past/future spy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50244 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan Atherton" wrote: > When I first read GoF, I immediately assumed that "The one who is too cowardly to return" is >Karkaroff, who is a wuss and a KNOWN DE; that "The one who has left >me >forever" is Snape, who is ALSO a known DE and has indeed left V >forever (is it just me or are you wetting yourself wondering what >Snape did with his first chance?); and "My most faithful DE who has >already re-entered my service" is Barty Jr, who is again, a KNOWN DE. Yes, so did I, and I still think so. What's really EATING at me though, is that there's no indication at all that any of it has registered with Harry (not that he was in any state to pay close attention) except, of course for Voldemort's next statement that the faithful servant is already at Hogwarts. In Dumbledore's office, when he is retelling everything to him and Sirius, it only says that Harry told them "all he could remember of Voldemort's speech to the Death Eaters." Nothing about whether he remembered this part, regardless if he made anything of it or not. Then later, in the hospital wing, he begins to recite the names of DE's that Voldemort had called out. This would have been a perfect time to remember those particular three, especially as he notices Snape make a sudden movement at the same time. I have to conclude that Harry did not connect the "DE who has left me forever" with Snape at all, but I sure wish I knew that he had at least repeated the line to Dumbledore who would have understood it! I want to see how Snape would take it if Harry warned him about Voldemort's intentions. It reminds me of how Harry heard Bertha Jorkins name come up all year but it was never enough to jog that memory of the lost part of his first dream. Arghhh! Annemehr letting of steam, and wondering how it would be if HPfGU members wore a HPfGU badge or something to the bookstores at 12:01, June 21, if they're going... From melclaros at yahoo.com Tue Jan 21 16:40:31 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros ) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 16:40:31 -0000 Subject: Snape as past/future spy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50245 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan Atherton" > wrote: > > > Yes, so did I, and I still think so. What's really EATING at me > though, is that there's no indication at all that any of it has > registered with Harry I have to conclude that Harry did not connect the "DE who > has left me forever" with Snape at all, but I sure wish I knew that he had at least repeated the line to Dumbledore who would have understood it! I want to see how Snape would take it if Harry warned him about Voldemort's intentions. It took me a couple of readings to really get this as well. It hit me when Harry tells "Moody" that there is a Death Eater at HW and is told that, no, it's not Karkaroff because Karkaroff has run away (DE no 1)--then is immediately set right my "Moody" himself on the identity of the real Death Eater at Hogwarts (DE no.2.). He HAD to be thinking somewhere along the line "who's the last one?" If it didn't occur to him then it HAD to--absolutey HAD to have hit him like a ton of bricks when Snape revealed his Dark Mark. Come on, they kid remembered everything else, he can't have forgotten that one little detail--V threatening to kill right in front of you would certainly leave some sort of impression, wouldn't ya think? V mentioned three DEs, Harry learned the (possible) IDs of two of them. He HAD to be wondering about the 3rd. A good possibility shows up right under his nose and he doesn't see it? I don't buy it. Fortunately, I think both Snape and Dumbledore are smart enough to understand exactly what V.'s intentions are. > letting of steam, and wondering how it would be if HPfGU members wore > a HPfGU badge or something to the bookstores at 12:01, June 21, if > they're going... That would be cool! I vote "yes!" Melpomene From mb2910 at hotmail.com Tue Jan 21 16:50:22 2003 From: mb2910 at hotmail.com (Meira B) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 18:50:22 +0200 Subject: Dumbledore's Brilliant Idea (was: A detailed analysis of Snape's hatred of H Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50246 SnapesSlytherin wrote: > > I agree with Snape there. I personally cannot stand people who break >the > > rules and get ahead, while those of us who follow get nowhere. No one >is > > above the rules. Period. Now, I disagree with you on the "can > > vs. must". Harry doesn't *have* to do anything, he chooses to. Hence, >can > > wins to me. Me: Well, not always following the rules will do you much good. And sometimes, not following them won't get you into trouble. Just a small, local example: Here it is illegal to smoke in the shopping mall, yet people still continue to do it, and no one does anything about it. It's also illegal to talk on the cellular phone while driving (that is, holding the phone with one hand and driving with the other), yet people constantly do it and they never get a ticket, yet some time ago, when I just picked up the cellular phone from the passanger seat to check the time (in a red light...), I got told off by a police officer. I agree with the fact that no one is above the rules, but life sometimes doesn't work like that. suzchiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) asked: >I want to be sure about this. Does this mean that you would have preferred >that Harry not have tried to find the Philosopher's Stone before the bad >guy >(thought Snape, was Quirrell) and thus ensure that the stone went to > Audra wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that even though Quirrelmort made it through all the other obstacles, it would have been impossible for him to get his hands on the Stone due to "one of [Dumbledore's] more brilliant ideas" of using the Mirror of Erised. Harry breaking the rules and following him actually enabled the possibility of Quirrelmort obtaining the Stone. Harry got the Stone out of the Mirror. Quirrelmort would have just seen himself drinking the Elixir of Life. Now me: (I haven't read this thread, so I apologize beforehand if I re-say someone else's ideas) In order to get to the stone, one had to pass through a series of riddles and obstacles: Fluffy, the Devil's Snare, the Winged Keys room, the giant chessboard, the troll which has been knocked out cold already (by QuirrelMort), the potions' riddle and the Mirror of Erised itself. (btw, isn't it funny how there are enough broomsticks for all three of them? "They seized a broomstick each" ~PS "Through the Trapdoor"~). Earlier in the book, (p. 142, chapter 11) Hagrid says: "You forget that dog, an' you forget what it's guardin', that's between Professor Dumbledore and Nicolas Flamel -" Harry is given his first clue. In "The Mirror of Erised" (p. 157), Dumbledore explains exactly how the Mirror of Erised works "It shows us nothing more or less than the deepest, most desperate desire of our hearts." Dumbeldore just a few moments later says, "If you ever *do* run across it, you will now be prepared." (that's JKR's emphasis, not mine) Harry has just been given another clue. Hermione, with her brilliant researching skills (personally, I think she has some sort of photographic memory), finds out how Nicolas Flamel, Dumbledore and the Philosopher's Stone are all connected. A bit later in the book (right after the detention in the Forbidden Forest, to be exact), Harry gets his Invisibility Cloak back with a note attached saying "Just in case" (p. 190). In chapter 16 ("Through the Trapdoor", p.194), Hagrid explains to the Trio how to get past Fluffy - "jus' play him a bit o' music an' he'll go straight off ter sleep -". And don't forget the flute that Hagrid gave to Harry for Christmas. So they are given enough information to be able to get past the riddles (not to mention the fact that Ron is excellent in Chess, Harry is good at catching small flying things and Hermione is an expert in fire and flame charms). They were being shown how to get through the obstacles. Can you really blame three 11 year olds who are in posession of an Invisibility Cloak, (one of them wants to prove he's as good as his older brothers, the other one who wants people to like him for something he actually remembers doing and the third one who'll leap at the chance of proving her intellect) of going to try and stop QuirrelMort from getting the stone? After all, as much as Harry knew how the Mirror of Erised works, he had no idea that it would be used to guard the Philosopher's Stone. Here is something else that I find curious: Mazes and riddles. The riddles that they had to get through before reaching the Stone, Lupin's obstacle course, the third task of the Triwizard Tournament. IMO, there's no better way of teaching how to deal with the unexpected than that. Like Crouch!Moody said "Constant Vigilance!" Mazes are really an excellent way of improving one's vigilance. If the Trio wouldn't have gone after Snape, when they thought he was the one trying to get his hands on the Stone (but in fact it turned out to be QuirrelMort who was after it), the stone would still have been safe. As Audra pointed out, Dumbledore's brilliant idea would have ensured that. As Hermione constantly reminds us, it's impossible to Apparate and Dissaparate on Hogwarts grounds, so that method of escaping is out of the question, and just as there were *visible* physical obstacles, it's probable that there was some sort of "shield" that pervented people from taking the Stone with them (I know this is somewhat Star Trek-y, sorry, can't think of a different term than "shield"), unless they have some sort of password that can neutralize it. I think that both the Stone and the kids were quite safe. None of the obstacles are *too* difficult if you have the right people with you (and if you know you can overcome a full-grown troll ;-). Meira (who really hopes she hasn't stepped on anyone's toes and repeated things that have been said already) "I believe in compulsory cannibalism. If people were forced to eat what they killed, there would be no more wars." ~Abbie Hoffman~ _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jan 21 17:07:56 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:07:56 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Rowling=92s_Red_Flag_?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50247 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ebony " wrote: Hermione has developed as a character more than the boys have in a manner of speaking. I think I agree... we've had a lot of Hermione-development in PoA and GoF... > and in GoF, some of it was completely tangential to the main >plot of what Harry was going through. << JKR did mention that she let Hermione pursue her interest in the House Elves for a while, but had to force her back into the main plot--I've always felt the matter of the House Elves was dropped rather abruptly. But I think Hermione's stand-out role in the resolution of PoA obscures the fact that for large parts of the novel, and of CoS before it, Hermione has little to do. She's in the Hospital Wing for large parts of CoS and on the outs with the boys in most of PoA. If JKR hadn't given her a major role in GoF, I'd have wondered if she (JKR) wasn't losing interest in the character. I'd also like to say a little about the "just fourteen" business. No, it doesn't excuse their behavior. It doesn't mean that fourteen year olds can't behave better than that. Many do. But some people breeze through their teen years only to have an outbreak of callous, irresponsible behavior (we call it an identity crisis) at thirty, because they never found out who they were as teens. Others, who were inconsiderate idiots as teens, become staunch and reliable adults precisely because they've learned to know themselves. The reason I want to Cut Ron A Break is that fourteen year old behavior is a poor predictor of what a person will be like in later life. Someone who's obliviously self-centered at twenty-five will probably be the same at forty. An obliviously self-centered teen, OTOH, could well be a pleasure to know in a few years' time. I want to emphasize that I think very little of the inconsiderate idiot behavior which I, at least, see in all three members of the Trio is intentional. I don't think Ron *meant* to trample Hermione's feelings. I don't think Hermione meant to string him, or Viktor, along (part of her blush is her beginning to realize that's how it looks). I don't think Harry *meant* to diss Parvati, or exclude Ron from his life by not explaining why he thought his name was put into the Cup. They're just emotionally clueless, and this is being exaggerated for comic effect and to make the series enjoyable for all ages. A kid who hasn't the slightest idea why the adult readers are grinning over Ron's mishandling of his pestle and the sexual connotations of Hermione's deep red flush can still be amused by the scene in Potions Class because of the slapstick. But about the Kiss.... Red Flag Scenario # 4 Hermione's never done this before, because Harry's never *let* her do this before. This is the first time he hasn't yelped "Hermione!" in italics and scared her away at the first sign of a hug. Fancy me, arguing against my own ship. But JKR hasn't any intention, IMO, of resolving the ambiguities any time soon. She's got a couple thousand pages ahead of her, by my guess. She's not about to wrap up any major plot threads in Book Five. I have a feeling at the end of OoP we'll still be as confused about the Trio's feelings as they are. Pippin From john at sunstoneonline.com Tue Jan 21 16:57:56 2003 From: john at sunstoneonline.com (John Hatch) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 09:57:56 -0700 Subject: Real characters References: Message-ID: <000c01c2c16e$461156e0$0e00a8c0@Sunstone.sunstoneonline> No: HPFGUIDX 50248 Marina writes: Perfectly angelic character do make for crappy reading, yes, but so do a bunch of worthless jerks. JKR has skillfully avoided falling into either trap when she wrote the books, and hopefully we can avoid falling into the same traps when we discucss them. Painting Ron and Harry as a couple of insensitive gits is just as simplistic as painting them as a couple of perfect saints. Me: This is well said. One thing I've always loved about the Harry Potter universe is the complexity of characters. It isn't set up with characters doing some good things and then doing some bad things. It strikes me as more like a scale. On the one end, you've got HRH doing heroic, noble things that earn praise and admiration. On the other end, you've got Harry and Ron stealing a car and flying it through the Muggle world to get to school. I think this particular scene is pulled off really well by JKR. Who hasn't thought of something they assumed would be a great idea, only to realize later that maybe it wasn't so bright? The same can be said for Harry sneaking off to Hogsmeade. It seems harmless enough - it even seems like a good idea - but when Lupin gently rebukes Harry, it sudden seems so clear how foolish it really was. In between these extremes there are other examples. Harry sneaking out late to look at the Mirror of Erised, for example. He _is_ breaking the rules - but who can really fault the boy for wanting to see a family he's never known? Such events are murkier in the world of "right vs. wrong". There's also the Yule Ball. Harry and Ron are pretty insensitive and rude to their dates - but they are also in an incredibly awkward, uncomfortable position. Again, the issue is muddier. JKR navigates these events brilliantly and with skill. John From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Tue Jan 21 18:03:02 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller ) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 18:03:02 -0000 Subject: another flint? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50249 wrote: > > Hermione says at the Deathday Party (COS p.132, American > paperback):> "She haunts one of the toilets in the girls' > bathroom on the first floor." > Then, only 6 pages later, "Harry hurtled around the second > floor, ...edited... Then bboy_mn: > Joy, it looks like you are right. I reread some of the parts in my US > edition (paperback) and they seem to consistently use the same UK > references. In the front door (ground level) up the marble staircase > (first floor) up another staircase to Moaning Myrtle's bathroom > (second floor). > > That would make Hermione's statement the FLINT. (snip) > > So, I guess it is a mistake. No one at the publishers seems to have > caught it though. > I think Myrtle haunts ALL the bathrooms. We also see her in the prefects bathroom on the (help me, LOONS) 4th floor (?). I think her favorite is the one that she died in, which I think is on the second floor, as the resident expert on Hogwarts plumbing she can be expected to show up anywhere. Which brings me to a topic that I haven't seen discussed before. Myrtle + plumbing + basilisk. When Ginny as front man for the heir of Slytherin freed the basilisk, how exactly was this done? If she spoke Parseltongue at the magic sink and opened it, then there should be some evidence of that. At the very least, there should be fresh slithering marks on the tube and maybe in the bathroom. And we must also assume that whenever the Basilisk was released, Myrtle was elsewhere. (Perhaps in the first floor bathroom?) The other possibility is that Tom Riddle told Ginny some other spell that would release the basilisk, but just into the pipes, not the bathroom. Even so, the basilisk has to come into the fresh air sometime in order to petrify students throughout the book. There should still be some slither marks and maybe a slime trail from contact with pipes gone 1000 years without a cleaning. But the biggest problem I have with this is Myrtle. She explores the plumbing in the castle enough to find the prefects' bath, but she doesn't investigate the non-functional sink in her favorite bathroom in 50 years. She is always there when the Trio wants to speak with her, but she is always AWOL when there is snake mischief afoot, with or without Ginny. She isn't aware when her pipe kingdom has a massive trespasser, or if she is, she doesn't think it worthwhile to inform Harry. In any case, I hate to be a flint-buster, but I think there are other reasons for Hermione to attribute more than one bathroom as being a haunt of Myrtle. And thanks for the hook to allow me to present my basilisk conundrum. ~ Constance Vigilance ~ From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jan 21 18:38:52 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 18:38:52 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Why Harry and Hermione aren't Frodo and Sam Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50250 I think some Shippers see in H/H a potential superbeing: Harry's power and courage united with Hermione's passion and intellect. I can understand the appeal of the concept: it's like Frodo and Samantha as Jim said. But for me, one of the things that makes Rowling so appealing is that her characters are so much more individually complete than Tolkien's. Indeed I can tolerate Sam's servility only because I see him as part of Frodo, or vice versa. In a like way H/H could symbolize the merging of different parts of a single psyche. But real life pairings don't work like that,IMO. While your partner's qualities may complement your own, you can't really absorb them. If I think of Harry and Hermione as truly separate individuals, portraits of human beings rather than personifications of human characteristics, I don't think they're suited. That doesn't mean I can't imagine them being happy together. Barring abuse or incompatible goals, I think most couples can manage to be happy together if they set their minds to it, but I don't think it would be their greatest bliss. I think H/H would be a very high maintenance relationship, and I think that if Hermione has other goals to pursue in life, she might not be willing to give it the time and effort it would need to work. I don't think Harry could ever be comfortable with Hermione's passionate side. That's not who he is, and he could never have survived the Dursleys without that cool detachment he maintains most of the time. He admires her drive, but he doesn't understand it, and I think he would find it very wearing if he had to live with it all the time. Ron, on the other hand, admires assertive, passionate women. I take Jim's point on the visceral appeal of Fleur and Rosmerta, but unless we're prepared to maintain that *all* the voluptuous women in the Potterverse happen to be assertive as well, I think we should give Ron's viscera some credit for selectivity. Ron may think it's voluptuousness that's getting his attention, but the fact is, assertive women strike him as dead sexy. I think something similar is happening with Hermione. She probably thinks it's famous, powerful wizards that attract her, but really, I think it's the passion to help others. I think this might lead to conflict with Harry once there are no longer any age restrictions governing Harry's use of his power. If she were in his place, Hermione would be mastering every spell she could think of, while Harry only learns the ones he thinks he'll need. (Voldemort's strategy in forcing Harry into the tournament was *really* counterproductive--Harry wouldn't know half the magic he does now if he hadn't been forced to learn it for the Cup.) I don't think Hermione will ever understand Harry's wariness of the power that is in him. If Harry tried to explain his fears about his connection with Voldemort, she'd just say, "Oh, rubbish!" Hermione tends to be very dismissive of anything she can't understand. I think we'll see her overcome the dismissiveness, but I don't think she'll ever really have the acceptance of mysticism that Harry does. In all her adventures with Harry, she's never encountered the most mystical Potterverse creatures. The phoenix and the unicorn remain outside her experience--we don't even see her with the baby ones in Hagrid's class. This is an area where Ron might be able to contribute something to Harry's support that she can't--once he gets over his fear. Pippin From pennylin at swbell.net Tue Jan 21 18:37:29 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 12:37:29 -0600 Subject: Hermione: Major Character or Not References: Message-ID: <042501c2c17c$27229b00$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 50251 Hi all -- Pippin said with regard to Hermione's growth as a character: <<<>>>>>>> Ahem. Hermione is "out of action" in CoS from pages 190 - 249 (CoS, US paperback). By my math, that's roughly 20% of the book, and though she's not actively engaging in conversation or doing things during that time, she's already done the necessary work. She has "little to do," does she? Er..... wonder how much longer it would have taken Harry and Ron on their own to discover that the monster was a basilisk and had been using the pipes? Hermione started the solution and Harry finished it. PoA -- she's on the outs with the boys from pages 173-215 (US paperback). That's 42 pages ... 13% of the total page-time. And, don't forget she's not completely on the outs with Harry during that entire time, just Ron. Granted, Harry isn't forcing Ron to make-up with her, though he does suggest it rather forcefully for Harry at one point. But, Harry was certainly making overtures toward repairing his friendship with her, and he obviously does care about her. As you yourself concede, she certainly did have a major role in PoA. Hermione has played a major and decisive role in each of the 4 books, IMHO. I think people consistently overestimate her petrified time period and the time period during which she was on the outs with the boys. The math shows it's not as significant as some have argued. Penny (who will weigh in on the other "ship" issues later......) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jan 21 19:28:21 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 19:28:21 -0000 Subject: Hermione: Major Character or Not In-Reply-To: <042501c2c17c$27229b00$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50252 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Penny Linsenmayer wrote: -- [Hermione]'s on the outs with the boys from pages 173-215 (US paperback). That's 42 pages ... 13% of the total page-time. > Hermione has played a major and decisive role in each of the 4 books, IMHO. I think people consistently overestimate her petrified time period and the time period during which she was on the outs with the boys. The math shows it's not as significant as some have argued. > It depends whether you count calendar time or page time. For CoS, the amount of time and the amount of pages are about the same by my reckoning: 20% as you said. But Hermione is quarreling with the boys (according to Hagrid, neither of them were speaking to her) in PoA almost continuously from Christmas until around Easter. That's three to four months or approximately a third of the school year. And yet it doesn't have nearly the impact on Harry's life that his much briefer spat with Ron does in GoF. Hermione's importance to Harry and to the story can't be doubted. What I don't see is that her overshadowing of Ron in GoF is some kind of trend. Pippin From manawydan at ntlworld.com Tue Jan 21 18:34:28 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 18:34:28 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mundungus Fletcher (was real characters) References: <1043102146.2479.48862.m6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001101c2c17b$bbbf2680$9c7d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 50253 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 20:17:17 -0000 From: "Amy Z " Subject: Re: Real characters >Eileen wrote: >> And we can start trashing Mundungus Fletcher. >Heh, we can do that right now. Hexing Arthur? Defrauding the >Ministry? FIE* on him, I say! Yes, interesting, that, isn't it? Someone who (we assume) to have been a bad lad earlier on in the series (because Arthur Weasley and the secret ministry police have been breaking down his door in the small hours of the morning) suddenly turns out to be one of Dumbledore's Old Firm. Which in turn leads me to wonder not so much about Mundungus himself but more about just how many wizards fall foul of the ministry, not because they are specifically Voldemortian but just because they are mischievous, or individualistic, or just plain dissident to the way the Ministry runs things. There is some slight evidence that things seem to be getting worse in this respect. Reference for example to how busy Arthur Weasley's department are, about how he is drafting a new Protection of Muggles Act (which I'm sure like successive Criminal Justice Acts in the muggle UK will mean a further reduction in civil liberties). So here's an even more off the wall suggestion. Is there an "ecological" crisis developing - a situation in which it is becoming ever more difficult for wizards to remain hidden from muggles - growing population of both, increasing muggle intrusiveness in areas where wizards live, possibly even an enrichment of the mix between wizards and muggles? In response the Ministry has to work ever harder to ensure continuing secrecy and in the process make life harder for wizards. This in turn causes a current of resentment among wizards and maybe is even one of the causes why some have turned to the Death Eaters. Viable theory, anyone? Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From lupinesque at yahoo.com Tue Jan 21 20:51:56 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z ) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 20:51:56 -0000 Subject: Real characters & persuasive argument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50254 Ebony wrote: > So my writing an essay like mine means that I don't love the > characters? No, I wasn't saying you were chewing up the characters. Sorry for being unclear. When I wrote-- > > Ebony's post, and more especially Eileen's follow-up trashing Ron > > *and* Harry, made me think about how we tend to chew up characters > if they are less than perfect. --I was just following a train of thought from your post to Eileen's to a general trend that you may have been fortunate enough to miss, where people do reduce complex characters to flat characteristics such as I described. I wasn't intending to say that you were trashing. I do think Eileen was trashing--sorry, Eileen. It's not a matter of affection for the characters (there's no arguing that point, as affection for characters is as irrational and indefensible as affection for real-life people), but of supporting your argument with the full range of evidence. Ron and Harry are both, at times, inconsiderate. Evidence abounds. But to say that on balance they are inconsiderate, to my mind, flattens out characters who have both amply demonstrated concern for others' feelings. On rapid reflection I would say Harry is definitely more considerate than otherwise; Ron's a tougher case; in either case it takes more than a citation of their inconsiderate moments to make the argument. At least, that's what it takes if you want to convince *me.* I suppose the disagreement between us may come down to the fact that we may speak differently about real-life people. If a friend of mine whom on balance I liked occasionally did something inconsiderate, I wouldn't say "Lois is inconsiderate." I'd say "Lois did something really inconsiderate." I'd save "Lois is inconsiderate" for people who frequently, or better yet dominantly, exhibit that trait. YMMV. Amy Z From kethlenda at yahoo.com Tue Jan 21 21:09:57 2003 From: kethlenda at yahoo.com (Kelly L. ) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 21:09:57 -0000 Subject: Cho In-Reply-To: <20030121094111.66397.qmail@web21104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50255 Petra and Maria were discussing Cho Chang and why people dislike her--a snip of the conversation: > Petra: > > In other words, what choices has she made > > that led you to dislike her so? > > Maria: > > Cho didn't make any choices. That's part of why > > I don't like her. She's just this neutral > > character in the background that for some > > reason occupies Harry's thoughts and *this > > annoys me*. Personally, I've always liked Cho. Admittedly, we don't know her very well yet, but everything I've seen of her has been good. We don't learn very much at all about her during PoA, but during GoF we get a couple of glimpses of her. What do we see? A girl who doesn't wear the mean-spirited "Cedric Diggory/Potter Stinks" badges, even when all of her friends do. Even though it's possible that she and Cedric were dating even then. A girl who doesn't giggle at Harry when he tries to ask her out, even when her friends do. And a girl who is polite to Harry as she turns him down. She has a sort of independence and dignity that I like; many teenage girls are much more swayed by the crowd than she is. Kelly L. From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Jan 21 21:36:47 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 21:36:47 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Why Harry and Hermione aren't Frodo and Sam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50256 Pippin:I think some Shippers see in H/H a potential superbeing: Harry's power and courage united with Hermione's passion and intellect. I can understand the appeal of the concept: it's like Frodo and Samantha as Jim said." I don't think superbeing for Harry and Hermione, and I wouldn't want to take the "Frodo and Samantha" analogy too seriously, either; but the power/courage/passion/intellect combination is a strong one. (How the Frodo/Sam relationship is a commentary on the class system is a topic for another time and place.) Pippin:"In a like way H/H could symbolize the merging of different parts of a single psyche. But real life pairings don't work like that,IMO. While your partner's qualities may complement your own, you can't really absorb them." Agreed. A partner's best qualities can be a positive influence, but not absorbed. Guess they just have to stay together, then :-) Pippin:"I think H/H would be a very high maintenance relationship, and I think that if Hermione has other goals to pursue in life, she might not be willing to give it the time and effort it would need to work. "I don't think Harry could ever be comfortable with Hermione's passionate side." Your opinion is just as good as mine, but history so far is more optimistic. For Hermione's part, what activity has she ever approached that she didn't give 100%? If she commits to a relationship with Harry (or anybody else), and it's important to her, she'll work at it. On Harry's side, he's stood next to the Hermione furnace for four years now, and he seems to deal with it well. Does he occasionally think she's going around the bend? Sure he does; sometimes he's right, sometimes wrong. He can live with it. I don't know how on point this is, but it came to me and I couldn't resist, so apologies in advance: +++++++++++++ Lily touched Harry's arm. "Daddy, I have a Transfiguration essay to finish before we go back to school. Will you take a look at this part?" Harry looked up after reading it. "I'm not sure about this last bit, honey. Your Mum's the one who wrote the textbook, you know. Let's show it to her. She'll set you right." Lily whispered fiercely in Harry's ear. "Daddy, if you tell Mum and I have to stay up 'till midnight reading the entire library and conducting experiments, I am going to lay such a hex on you..." Harry couldn't hold back the smile. "Anytime you want to try me, dear... okay, let's go look it up." ++++++++++++++ His ability to have some detachment could be seen as a plus here. He can let Hermione be Hermione and give her the space to pursue her goals. He has goals, too, although he hasn't had the chance to sort them out. Keeping his heart beating is a big enough goal right now. Pippin:"I think this [Harry's mistrust of power} might lead to conflict with Harry once there are no longer any age restrictions governing Harry's use of his power. If she were in his place, Hermione would be mastering every spell she could think of, while Harry only learns the ones he thinks he'll need. (Voldemort's strategy in forcing Harry into the tournament was *really* counterproductive--Harry wouldn't know half the magic he does now if he hadn't been forced to learn it for the Cup.)" It's possible,but she also might accept that Harry's approach works, and she also might have developed enough insight into Harry to understand this about him. Pippin:"In all her adventures with Harry, she's never encountered the most mystical Potterverse creatures. The phoenix and the unicorn remain outside her experience--we don't even see her with the baby ones in Hagrid's class. This is an area where Ron might be able to contribute something to Harry's support that she can't--once he gets over his fear." Agreed, and Ron still has insights into the wizard world that someone not born into couldn't have. Jim, thumbing through Ron's back issues of Playwizard magazine From duchessmadeleine at yahoo.ca Tue Jan 21 21:44:23 2003 From: duchessmadeleine at yahoo.ca (Madeleine) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 16:44:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Cho In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030121214423.87455.qmail@web12208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50257 I agree with Kelly. I think Cho makes a lot of major choices and decisions that show a strength of character and maturity level that is not seen in many of the other characters. She doesn't follow the crowd, she finds her own way through life. Even if it means publically going against what others, including her friends are doing (ie. Cho not wearing the badge, even when she is surrounded by friends wearing badges). I like Cho and I think she is an excellent role model. Made "Kelly L. " wrote:Petra and Maria were discussing Cho Chang and why people dislike her--a snip of the conversation: > Petra: > > In other words, what choices has she made > > that led you to dislike her so? > > Maria: > > Cho didn't make any choices. That's part of why > > I don't like her. She's just this neutral > > character in the background that for some > > reason occupies Harry's thoughts and *this > > annoys me*. What do we see? A girl who doesn't wear the mean-spirited "Cedric Diggory/Potter Stinks" badges, even when all of her friends do. Even though it's possible that she and Cedric were dating even then. A girl who doesn't giggle at Harry when he tries to ask her out, even when her friends do. And a girl who is polite to Harry as she turns him down. She has a sort of independence and dignity that I like; many teenage girls are much more swayed by the crowd than she is. From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 21 21:55:32 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 13:55:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Cho In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030121215532.49499.qmail@web40502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50258 --- "Kelly L. " wrote: > Petra and Maria were discussing Cho Chang and why > people > dislike her--a snip of the conversation: > > > Petra: > > > In other words, what choices has she made > > > that led you to dislike her so? > > > > Maria: > > > Cho didn't make any choices. That's part of why > > > I don't like her. She's just this neutral > > > character in the background that for some > > > reason occupies Harry's thoughts and *this > > > annoys me*. So far in the books, Cho isn't supposed to make decisions...she's *not* a main character. So you don't like her because of how JKR decided to write her into the story? That doesn't make sense. You can say it annoys you that we don't know her well enough to make a judgement, But you don't know enough about her to like her or not. She hasn't shown poor character thus far, so I don't see why anyone has a reason to not like her. And if anyone tries to say they don't like her because she doesn't return Harry's feelings, that's just sort of stupid because she doesn't know that Harry has a crush on her because once again, he's fourteen and has really kept it to himself. ~Kathryn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From srsiriusblack at aol.com Tue Jan 21 22:49:59 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:49:59 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Cho Message-ID: <144.858655f.2b5f2897@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50259 In a message dated 21/01/2003 16:11:21 Eastern Standard Time, kethlenda at yahoo.com writes: > And a girl who is polite to Harry as she turns him > down. She has a sort of independence and dignity that I like; > many teenage girls are much more swayed by the crowd than > she is. > I always thought there was a lot to see in Cho during this particular scene in the book. I felt as though she would have accepted Harry's offer were it not that she was promised to Cedric for the Yule Ball. I got the sense that she knew and had some sense of empathy for the position Harry was in, and she dealt with it in a kind and gentle way. Teenage girls aren't always as sweet as she was, and there was a certain level of discomfort that I chalked up to not wanting to hurt Harry's feelings as she was aware of how hard it must be to ask a girl out, much less an older girl. -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Jan 21 22:56:03 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 22:56:03 -0000 Subject: Question about Book 5 discussion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50260 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theo_kestrel " wrote: > With the announcement of Book 5's release date, and all the wild > speculation about the two released excerpts from the book, I've > been wondering about something. I know I'm jumping the gun here > by several months, but please bear with me. > > ...edited... > > When will it be appropriate to start discussing the actual content > of "The Order of the Phoenix" on this group? > > Thanks- > > theo_kestrel bboy_mn: In the HP4GU-Movie group, where you have no choice but to discuss the movies, it is standard practice to preface you Subject: line with SPOILER: to indicate that this post gives away parts of the plot of the latest movie. I think I've seen the same thing in this group when a new book is release. Anyone who's post gives away details of the book, prefaces with SPOILER: and doesn't start the actual dicussion of sensitive material until farther down in the post. Frequently, the posts will look something like this- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - FROM: bboy_mn DATE: June 22, 2003 6:00am SUBJECT: SPOILER: Cho is a tramp. S P o i l e r S P o i l e r S P o i l e r In OotP, Cho is all over Harry like white on rice. Ron and Hermione blend like fire and ice. Viktor decides he likes Percy better. [Just a nod to slash fanfic] McGonagall marries Snape. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. bboy_mn - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The space at the top helps prevent anyone from accidently reading anything they wouldn't want to read. Don't know if that's how they will do it this time, but it is a relatively common method. Admin's will post the official rules. bboy_mn From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Tue Jan 21 22:57:35 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:57:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Cho In-Reply-To: <20030121215532.49499.qmail@web40502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030121225735.62677.qmail@web40502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50261 wrote: > Petra and Maria were discussing Cho Chang and why > people > dislike her--a snip of the conversation: > > > Petra: > > > In other words, what choices has she made > > > that led you to dislike her so? > > > > Maria: > > > Cho didn't make any choices. That's part of why > > > I don't like her. She's just this neutral > > > character in the background that for some > > > reason occupies Harry's thoughts and *this > > > annoys me*. ~Kathryn So far in the books, Cho isn't supposed to make decisions...she's *not* a main character. So you don't like her because of how JKR decided to write her into the story? That doesn't make sense. You can say it annoys you that we don't know her well enough to make a judgement, But you don't know enough about her to like her or not. She hasn't shown poor character thus far, so I don't see why anyone has a reason to not like her. And if anyone tries to say they don't like her because she doesn't return Harry's feelings, that's just sort of stupid because she doesn't know that Harry has a crush on her because once again, he's fourteen and has really kept it to himself. Oh, dear... I seem to be under attack. :) OK, let me rephrase my I-don't-like-Cho moments. In my post you're all quoting, I said: First off, I don?t dislike Cho because of what > she is like ? I don?t know what she is like. I > don?t like her as Harry?s romantic interest. > > You see, I hated to see Harry melt like ice > cream in the sun as soon as he laid eyes on > her. For two and a half years of his life we > watched Harry, Ron, Hermione, Ginny and many > other people grow and develop, we?ve grown to > love some of them and dislike others *for a > reason*, and here comes Cho Chang of whom we > *and Harry* know *positively nothing* (at the > moment) except that she is extremely pretty ? > and Harry falls for her like Romeo for Juliet. First of all, I never wrote that I don't like Cho because she doesn't return Harry's feelings, I never even implied it, and I am *never* going to do it. C'mon, even I know that's stupid . I wrote that I don't dislike Cho Chang as a person. If anywhere else in that post I wrote "I don't like Cho Chang," it was to save space. I can even say this: I don't like Cho Chang as a character. I'm sorry for losing people on that particular point. As for Cho being very decent in GoF (I am not arguing with that) - well, that was after Harry first got a crush on her. I was already very annoyed at it. I can't help myself - sorry. Petra Pan asked: "Do you still hold Cho responsible for Harry falling for her at first sight?" No. Moreover, I never did. "So, do you dislike Harry for his 'love at first sight,'a physical reaction that he has no control over?" No. But the fact annoys me. "do you dislike JKR for writing that scene the way she did?" No. I love JKR, but that scene irritates me. And I don't think I have anything else to say on the subject at this point. Regards, Maria, who thanks Petra Pan for helping her to sort out her thoughts. :) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From my_severus_snape at hotmail.com Wed Jan 22 00:25:54 2003 From: my_severus_snape at hotmail.com (Elysia Bailey) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:25:54 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Petunia as Squib Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50263 Hey Guys, But I was wondering if there is any possibility that Lily's parents aren't muggles. Because in the first book Petunia says that her parents were proud Lily was a witch and then in the second book it is Harry that assumes that his grandparents were muggles. However I found no real proof of that and it would explain why Aunt Petunia is so twisted and maybe answer more questions as to why noone talks about Lily. - Elysia _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Jan 22 00:38:41 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 00:38:41 -0000 Subject: Breaking the Rules - Good and/or Bad Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50264 A while back in a discussion about Snape, SnapesSlytherin wrote: SnapesSlytherin wrote: > I agree with Snape there. I personally cannot stand people who break > the rules and get ahead, while those of us who follow get nowhere. > No one is above the rules. Period. Now, I disagree with you on the > "can vs. must". Harry doesn't *have* to do anything, he chooses to. > Hence, can wins to me. -end this part- To which Meira B replied: > Well, not always following the rules will do you much good. And > sometimes, not following them won't get you into trouble. -end this part- Much farther back in HPforGrownUps' time, someone posted on the Stages of Moral Developement. One of the lower stages is blindly following the rules. A much higher stage of moral development is to make a moral choice independant of the rules. To choose to do what is right even if it goes against the rules. Now, SnapesSlytherin's comment was specifically directed at people who break the rules to get ahead, in a sense, they cheat and are shown special favor because of who they are or someone's belief of who they are. A good example, one we can all relate to, is the Lords of High School, the jocks (although not all of them); the football/basketball hero, loved and admired by all. Although, loved and admired mostly by themselves. For whom, the coach will wield his considerable power in order to get favorable concessions out of anyone and everyone. Afteral; he has to play in 'the big game'. Teachers pressured into grading leniently, rescheduling tests, or give players a second chance; second chances that are not granted to the Hero of the Chess Team. Of course, the Hero of the Chess Team doesn't need any concession because he studies and does his homework. As a side note: I make a distinction between jocks and athletes; an athlete is someone who is in love with the game, a jock is someone who is in love with himself. It's no secret that in many high schools and colleges athletes are priviledge people. That's an example we can all relate too, and this sense of 'priviledge' carries over to professional athletes. But also includes movie stars, celebrities, powerful businessmen, the exceptionally rich, and polititians. In this sense, I am 100% in agreement with SnapesSlytherin. The Lords of High School (and others) should be held to the same standards that us mere mortals are held to. Now back to Harry Potter. Harry/Ron/Hermione get into mischief just like all kids do. It's part of exploring the world around them. I have no doubt that on occassion Dean and Seamus have wandered the halls after hours. Wandering the halls after hours is not a capital offense, although the staff must enforce it to maintain some degree of order in the school. So, on that point, Harry is human, he gets into mischief and is frequently caught and punished. It's not like 'The Boy Who Lived' gets out of detentions. Now let's move to bigger violations of the rules. In most of these cases Harry does not want to do what he does. He doesn't want to risk his life trying to stop Snape from stealing the stone. But who would listen to him? He sees that he has no choice. The correct thing to do is obey the rules and stay out of it. The morally right thing to do, is to sacrifice everything to stop a far greater crime. If Harry had followed the rules, it's possible Voldemort could have gotten the Stone and become immortal. He isn't acting for personal gain, if fact he is willing to lose his own life for the 'greater good' of all. There is one exception, although it falls in the mischief catagory, sneaking out to Hogsmeade was a poor choice, and he is rightly ashamed when Lupin points out to him the potential cost of that little adventure; trading his parents sacrifice for a bag of tricks. In these cases, the great adventures of Harry at Hogwarts, Harry is never acting for personal gain or glory. Quite the opposite, he wishes everyone would just forget about his sacrific and heroism, and leave him alone. He risks everything, and endures unbelievable hardship, pain, and misery, and he does it all for the good of others. Many of the greatest achievement in history have been made by men (and women) who broke the rules. The French Revolution, and the American Revolution are good examples. At one time, it was a hard and fast rule that the earth was the center of the universe, so declared by the learned leaders of the church. Any other opinion was blasphamy punishable by prison. Galileo proved the earth revolved around the sun, and went to prison for it. He broke the rules because the rules were wrong. Again, the greatest moral choice is to do what is right independant of the rules. When it really counts, Harry does what is right, and it's hard to punish someone when you know they have done the right thing. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Wed Jan 22 01:06:37 2003 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 01:06:37 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Petunia as Squib References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50266 What i think happened was that Lily was oldest and she shared all her tales of the WW with Petunia, who looked forward desperatly to the time that she could join it and then, on the day she expected the letter, got nothing. There would have been a period of denial, followed by hatred of what she wanted so much,and then outright hatred of lily, the 'favored one'. I don't think that Petunia is a squib because she takes no part in the WW at all, while the only (?) squib we've seen so far, flitch, seems to be able to take part in the WW (see hogwarts, use at least some magic, etc) and work in it, even if he's not quite an equal. Squibs must have some magic to see hogwarts and there would be NO point in the Quickspell course if there was NOTHING to develop. Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jan 22 01:28:43 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 01:28:43 -0000 Subject: How will the Second Voldemort War be fought? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50268 The Second Voldemort War is on. It began when Voldemort killed Cedric Diggory and was restored to his body. (All the things before were the kind of nasty preliminaries that go before most wars.) Since it is a war, I think it's useful to talk about it in war terms. We have indications of Voldemort's and Dumbledore's strategy: VOLDEMORT'S EARLY STRATEGY Undermine his main enemies, Dumbledore and Harry, probably by getting Dumbledore and perhaps Harry sacked or jailed. He may try to deprive Harry of the support of his friends, making Hermione and Ron targets. Prevent Dumbledore from gathering his strength. The old crowd are all targets. Deny his enemies their main base, Hogwarts. Voldemort can't allow the good guys to have a safe base while he has none. Get control of Azkaban, to establish a base, secure the services of the Dementors, and "liberate" imprisoned Death Eaters. Prevent the Ministry from taking effective action against him, giving him time to make and gather allies and regain the services of imprisoned Death Eaters. He has agents-in-place there (MacNair, others), perhaps even Fudge, although I think Fudge is basically Neville Chamberlain with a wand. He also has at least one powerful agent of influence, Lucius. DUMBLEDORE'S EARLY STRATEGY Act quickly to gather his cadre (the "old crowd"), retired Aurors, allies in the Ministry). Gather intelligence as much as possible - allies in the Ministry, Snape, (who shouldn't be out there; he's 100% "blown," completely compromised), and stay one step ahead of Voldemort. Reach out to potential allies such as the Giants, both as allies and to deny them to Voldemort. We may even meet a Giant in OP. Prevent Voldemort from getting control of Azkaban. Drive out the Dementors. Keep Voldemort off balance. Keep him from establishing a base of operations. Disrupt his plans. Voldemort needs time, and Dumbledore means to deny it to him. He urged Fudge unsuccessfully to that strategy, and Hagrid is aware that's Dumbledore's intent. If you accept these ideas as likely, then it's possible to predict things that might happen in OP. What tactics each side will use is - - we don't know. Jim Ferer, who doesn't think a steel helmet is any good against spells From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Wed Jan 22 01:28:17 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 19:28:17 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Petunia as Squib References: Message-ID: <3E2DF3B1.E9390D60@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50269 Christopher Nuttall wrote: > > What i think happened was that Lily was oldest and she shared all her > tales of the WW with Petunia, who looked forward desperatly to the > time that she could join it and then, on the day she expected the > letter, got nothing. There would have been a period of denial, > followed by hatred of what she wanted so much,and then outright hatred > of lily, the 'favored one'. > > I don't think that Petunia is a squib because she takes no part in > the WW at all, while the only (?) squib we've seen so far, flitch, > seems to be able to take part in the WW (see hogwarts, use at least > some magic, etc) and work in it, even if he's not quite an equal. > Squibs must have some magic to see hogwarts and there would be NO > point in the Quickspell course if there was NOTHING to develop. > > Chris > > The point of a Squib is that they have no magic. Filch has no trouble seeing Hoggwarts because he KNOWS its there, thus any spells to make it look like something else wouldn't work on him. Far as I understand though, the castle only looks like ruins from the air to muggles, not when one is INSIDE it. It would be too dangerous though for a muggle to approach it on foot cause of the dangers of the forest and such, so they would have to be escorted there by a wizard at very least. Says a lot about Filch, having no magic, being able to do as well as he does on shear nasty attitude. Keeping both rowdy wizard kids (and magical beasties like Boggarts or whatever else he might find when doing his job) in line or at least surviving them? None of the kids even suspect he is a Squib until the evidence is found. Jazmyn From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Wed Jan 22 01:55:09 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 20:55:09 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Breaking the Rules - Good and/or Bad, Snape in general Message-ID: <17b.14d7c8fc.2b5f53fd@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50270 In a message dated 1/21/03 7:40:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, bboy_mn at yahoo.com writes: > Many of the greatest achievement in history have been made by men (and > women) who broke the rules. The French Revolution, and the American > Revolution are good examples. At one time, it was a hard and fast rule > that the earth was the center of the universe, so declared by the > learned leaders of the church. Any other opinion was blasphamy > punishable by prison. Galileo proved the earth revolved around the > sun, and went to prison for it. He broke the rules because the rules > were wrong. > > Again, the greatest moral choice is to do what is right independant of > the rules. > > When it really counts, Harry does what is right, and it's hard to > punish someone when you know they have done the right thing. > > Just a few thoughts. > > bboy_mn > Well, first off, I'd like to say how thrilled I am you even commented on anything I posted. I'm not saying that I wish Harry would follow the rules all the time - God knows I don't. But I feel that Harry *is* Mr. High School in some ways. I'm not saying that he never gets punished, but he gets alot of leinency (sp). And let's be honest: Harry *is* a jock - he's the star of the Quidditch team for Salazar's sake. Harry is just like the quarterback of the football team. I suppose this is more about Snape for me (as is everything). Anyone else know that one teacher who wouldn't break the rules for the jocks - no matter what? That's a part of Snape to me. I just think Snape overcompensates for it by being extra mean. Snape does this to everyone. Maybe he thinks everyone should be treated the same - no matter what. He's mean to Neville (whose parents were tortured and are now insane), he's mean to Hermione (she's a fantastic witch, but Muggle born), and he's mean to Harry (who was orphaned by the greatest Dark wizard in a hundred years). That's why I love Snape. He may be a nasty git ... but at least he's being fair (IMHO). ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ (Who just realized that she'll be in NYC when OoP comes out and won't be able to get it until the 22nd or the 23rd!) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fausts at attglobal.net Wed Jan 22 01:55:36 2003 From: fausts at attglobal.net (anguaorc ) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 01:55:36 -0000 Subject: SHIP: The Yule Brawl--The Problem With Reading R/H in GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50271 This is a response to Ebony's post #50156 entitled "All Smoke and No Fire: The Trouble With R/H in GoF and Beyond." I will also post it in the FictionAlley forum where Ebony's original essay was posted (or rather, it's successor thread -- http://www.fictionalley.org/fictionalleypark/forums/showthread.php? s=&threadid=24018). All sane, normal people -- please be warned that this is a detailed point-by-point response to Ebony's very long post, in the manner that has made the FictionAlley R/H vs. H/H Debate Thread a hissing and a byword everywhere. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ebony " wrote: > THE UNEXPECTED TASK > > ********************* > "We should get a move on, you know . . . ask someone. He's > right. > We don't want to end up with a pair of trolls." > > Hermione let out a sputter of indignation. > > "A pair of... what, excuse me?" > > "Well - you know," said Ron, shrugging. "I'd rather go alone than > with - with Eloise Midgen, say." > > "Her acne's loads better lately - and she's really nice!" > > "Her nose is off-center," said Ron. > > "Oh I see," Hermione said, bristling. "So basically, you're going to > take the best-looking girl who'll have you, even if she's completely > horrible?" > > "Er - yeah, that sounds about right," said Ron. > > "I'm going to bed," Hermione snapped, and she swept off toward the > girls' staircase without another word. (GoF, UK paper, p. 344) > ***************** > > The following is quoted from HP4GUer Linda McCabe with her express > written permission: > > "Trolls. You know the twelve foot mountain troll that almost > killed > Hermione back in book 1? The nasty, smelly, foul creature who > terrorized her. Ron didn't even consider asking Hermione, he was > concerned about not having to go out with a troll! Hermione wasn't > even on his radar screen even though she was supposedly his other > best friend. I'd be mighty insulted by that exchange. He compounded > his insult by describing Eloise Midgen in very uncomplimentary terms - > someone who Hermione thinks is "really nice." Looks are more > important to him than anything else. And females, especially > bookish females can feel very insecure about their own looks. That > conversation wouldn't endear him to me in the least." > > I couldn't have said it any better myself. I also noticed that > this > is a bit before Ron's epiphany about Hermione, that "you are > a > girl." He makes no overt overtures of interest towards Hermione > at > or up to this point. I see no Hepburn/Tracy in miniature there. I > see Ron being not very nice, and Hermione taking offense. > > Sometimes a rose is a rose. > > And sometimes, you just have to call a spade a spade. I will agree with Linda and Ebony thus far ? it is a very rare woman who would be attracted by such behavior. No R/H shipper would argue, "See how charming Ron is? No wonder Hermione likes him!" Not at all. Our attention is caught by something else entirely. We notice how quickly Hermione rises to Ron's bait here. She has sat silently studying her potions notes through Fred and George trying to borrow Pigwidgeon, Fred and George discouraging Ron's questions with insults, and Fred publicly asking Angelina for a date. She is not shown responding at all, not looking up from her work ? nothing. And yet, when Ron says: **** "We *should* get a move on, you know ask someone. He's right. We don't want to end up with a pair of trolls." **** Hermione's attention is immediately engaged, so engaged that Ron's wrong answer sends her out of the room in indignation. Why? I say ? because she was possibly hoping Ron would ask her (she may or may not have already been asked by Krum at this point). This is not the occasion for Hermione to *start* being interested in Ron; this is the occasion for Hermione's already emerging interest in Ron to receive a sharp slap across the face. This is the kind of misunderstanding and setback that all good humorous romance stories have. Note, too, that Hermione betrays no interest in or curiousity about what kind of girls HARRY might want to ask to the ball ? even though Harry is sitting right there, and Ron's "we" includes him. > On to one of the most pivotal scenes in this chapter Ron's > epiphany. > > ************** > Entering the common room, Harry looked around, and to his surprise he > saw Ron sitting ashen-faced in a distant corner. Ginny was sitting > with him, talking to him in what seemed to be a low, soothing voice. > > "What's up, Ron?" said Harry, joining them. > > Ron looked up at Harry, a sort of blind horror in his face. > > "Why did I do it?" he said wildly. "I don't know what made me do it! > > "What?" said Harry. > > "He - er - just asked Fleur Delacour to go to the ball with him," > said Ginny. She looked as though she was fighting back a smile, but > she kept patting Ron's arm sympathetically. > > "You what?' said Harry. > > "I don't know what made me do it!" Ron gasped again. "What was I > playing at? There were people - all around - I've gone mad - everyone > watching! I was just walking past her in the entrance hall - she was > standing there talking to Diggory - and it sort of came over me - and > I asked her!" > > Ron moaned and put his face in his hands. He kept talking, though > the words were barely distinguishable. > > "She looked at me like I was a sea slug or something. Didn't even > answer. And then - I dunno - I just sort of came to my senses and > ran for it." > > "She's part veela," said Harry. "You were right - her grandmother > was one. It wasn't your fault, I bet you just walked past when she > was turning on the old charm for Diggory and got a blast of it - but > she was wasting her time. He's going with Cho Chang." > > Ron looked up. > > "I asked her to go with me just now," Harry said dully, "and she told > me." > > Ginny had suddenly stopped smiling. (GoF, UK paper, p. 347-348) > ******************** > > Lots and lots going on here. We see Harry's preoccupation with > his > rejection by Cho, completely one-sided H/G (although Gin seems to be > handling it okay, but then again, am not here to debate the demerits > or lack thereof in H/G), and a Ron who is totally upset by his > rejection by Fleur. > > Ron who called poor Eloise Midgen a "troll", with one glance > from a > pretty girl, feels quite a bit like a sea-slug. He is > "ashen-faced", > there is a sort of "blind horror in his face", and he moans. > Obviously not a happy camper. Upon first read, I felt rather sorry > for him. It couldn't have been pleasant to go through all that > in > public. > > One would hope this would reform the laddie that after rejection > by > Fleur, he would learn to be a bit nicer when it came to issues like > this. However, the reason why I quoted the scene above was as a > pretext for the crucial scene that is oft-quoted by the good ship. I think it is clear that Ron is not distraught because of Fleur turning him down (which, technically, she hasn't ? he simply "ran for it"), but because he can't believe he has made such a public idiot of himself ("everyone watching!"). > ****************** > "This is mad," said Ron. "We're the only ones left who haven't got > anyone - well, except Neville. Hey - guess who he asked? Hermione!" > > "What?" said Harry, completely distracted by this startling news. > > "Yeah, I know!" said Ron, some of the color coming back into his > face as he started to laugh. "He told me after Potions! Said she's > always been really nice, helping him out with work and stuff- but she > told him she was already going with someone. Ha! As if! She just > didn't want to go with Neville ... I mean, who would?" > > "Don't!" said Ginny, annoyed. "Don't laugh -" > > Just then Hermione climbed in through the portrait hole. > > "Why weren't you two at dinner?" she said, coming over to join them. > > "Because - oh shut up laughing, you two - because they've both just > been turned down by girls they asked to the ball!" said Ginny. > > That shut Harry and Ron up. > > "Thanks a bunch, Ginny," said Ron sourly. > > "All the good-looking ones taken, Ron?" said Hermione > loftily. "Eloise Midgen starting to look quite pretty now, is she? > Well, I'm sure you'll find someone somewhere who'll have you." > > But Ron was staring at Hermione as though suddenly seeing her in a > whole new light. > "Hermione, Neville's right - you are a girl. . . ." > > "Oh well spotted," she said acidly. > > "Well - you can come with one of us!" > > "No, I can't," snapped Hermione. > > "Oh come on," he said impatiently, "we need partners, we're going to > look really stupid if we haven't got any, everyone else has . . ." > > "I can't come with you," said Hermione, now blushing, "because I'm > already going with someone." > > "No, you're not!" said Ron. "You just said that to get rid of > Neville!" > > "Oh did I?" said Hermione, and her eyes flashed dangerously. "Just > because it's taken you three years to notice, Ron, doesn't mean no > one else has spotted I'm a girl!" > > Ron stared at her. Then he grinned again."Okay, okay, we know you're > a girl," he said. "That do? Will you come now?" > > "I've already told you!" Hermione said very angrily. "I'm going > with someone else!" > > And she stormed off toward the girls' dormitories again. > > "She's lying," said Ron flatly, watching her go. > > "She's not," said Ginny quietly. > > "Who is it then?" said Ron sharply. > > "I'm not telling you, it's her business," said Ginny. > > "Right," said Ron, who looked extremely put out, "this is getting > stupid. Ginny, you can go with Harry, and I'll just -" > > "I can't," said Ginny, and she went scarlet too. "I'm going with - > with Neville. He asked me when Hermione said no, and I thought. . . > well. . . I'm not going to be able to go otherwise, I'm not in fourth > year." She looked extremely miserable. "I think I'll go and have > dinner," she said, and she got up and walked off to the portrait > hole, her head bowed. > > Ron goggled at Harry. > > "What's got into them?" he demanded. (GoF, UK paper, p. 348-349) > ************************ > > This is how we H/Hers read this scene. > > Ron's "Hey - guess who he asked? Hermione!" and "She > told him she > was already going with someone. Ha! As if! She just didn't want to > go with Neville ... I mean, who would?" doesn't sound very > nice to > me. First of all, Neville has been nothing but kind towards Ron. I > thought they were friends of a sort. But here Ron is admitting that > he really thinks Neville is a loser. Ginny (whom I love whenever we > glimpse her in GoF) expresses my own annoyance when she admonishes > him not to laugh. I would like to note, in Ron's defence, that Neville is not present to be hurt by this, and Ron has no way of knowing that he is unintentionally insulting Ginny. If you suspect that Ron already, deep in his secret heart of hearts, has feelings for Hermione, you can see Ron's "not very nice" remark about Neville in a slightly different light, along the lines of, "whew, no threat there." But I'm afraid Ron *does* think that Neville is a loser in the romance department (another sign that Ron still has a lot to learn). > Fans are always > quick to defend Ron but what about Hermione's feelings here? > > Hermione rightly calls Ron out on this. She is completely > unsympathetic about his plight, and who can blame her? Me, me ? I will! Hermione DID NOT HEAR Ron dissing Neville. The *only* reason she has for thinking Ron is an insensitive prat who deserves to have his face rubbed in his romantic failure is that "troll" conversation from a few days before. Here she is, secure in having the much-courted Krum as her date, *taunting* her dateless friend who has just been turned down by the first girl he's ever asked out. A little oversensitive, isn't she? *I* forgive her easily, because I think she likes Ron, and was very hurt by the previous conversation. But if you take her as simply showing female solidarity, I think her "hitting Ron when he is down" is uncharacteristically cruel. It is also cruel to Harry, by the way, simply because he is in the same position as Ron. Not that she pays the slightest bit of attention to Harry in this entire scene. ;) > I emphatically do not think this implies that Hermione wants Ron to > ask her. We have additional knowledge to contextualize her thoughts > in this scene. We know that Krum, one of the most sought-after guys > at school that year because of his celebrity, has already asked her > to the ball. We know that Hermione is sympathetic to the plight of > the underdog?Neville, house-elves, Eloise?and is used to > being teased > and shunned herself. So I don't think her remarks are a come-on. > I > think she's expressing how sweet karma really is Hermione > has > treated people well and come out of the Yule Ball scramble like a > champ, while Ron, who thinks that people like Eloise and Neville are > beneath him, is the dateless one after all. Of course she doesn't want Ron to ask her. It's too late now ? she already has a date. She *wanted* Ron to ask her before. Now she wants him to suffer for "rejecting" her. And, again, Hermione has no clue that Ron "thinks Neville is beneath him." And, of course, Harry is dateless as well. Is Hermione delighted by that karma too, or does she simply not have any attention to spare for Harry right now? Hermione has not *always* treated people well. I'll bet she would prefer that Viktor not know about the derogatory remarks she has previously made about his appearance. And her being "sympathetic to the plight of the underdog" doesn't extend as far as Krum's poor groupies or the referee who makes a fool of himself over Veelas at the World cup. Yes, she's slightly nicer and more sensitive about other people's love lives than Ron, but we're not talking Saint Hermione and Evil Ron here. > Let's look at Ron's behavior now. First, he laughs at the > notion > that Hermione's got a date... and suggests she's lying. ("No, you're > not!" said Ron. "You just said that to get rid of Neville!") > Towards the end of the scene, he implies that she is being less than > truthful again. ("As if! She just didn't want to go with Neville... > I mean, who would?") *Totally* uncalled for first, he implies > that > Harry was keeping his illegal Triwizard entry from him, and now he > seems to think Hermione is lying about really having a date I > mean, > why in the world does the boy think his two best friends would be > anything other than truthful towards him? Ron is laughing, true. I wouldn't say he's laughing at the notion that Hermione has a date, though he could be. I thought he was laughing at the idea of Neville asking Hermione to the Ball. Anyway, if it's "uncalled for" to laugh at that, then Harry is guilty as well. Ron suggests that Hermione pretended to already have a date as a gentle way to say `no' to Neville. I don't see why this is so bad ? this is actually a commonly practiced type of social lie. I have done it myself, to be quite honest, and I don't feel much guilt about it. If you want to turn down an invitation, it is a lot nicer than Harry's blurted "no" or Fleur's stare of disbelief. Ron doesn't *want* to believe that Hermione has a date. It is denial on his part, similar to Fred's "you're JOKING!" on hearing that Quidditch has been cancelled in GoF Ch. 12. He'd much *rather* believe that Hermione just didn't want to go with Neville. Anything else is ? somewhere that he doesn't want to go. > Linda puts this very well. "This is taken to a new level before > the > ball when Ron thought that Hermione lied to Neville because no one > would want to go with him the ball. Ron couldn't bring himself to > believe that anyone else had even considered asking Hermione. Why is > that? Because she didn't even rank high enough on the good looks > scale for him." That's how *Hermione* takes it (another case of typical romantic misunderstanding), but it's not how Ron means it. He is simply denying a truth he doesn't want to face. > So much for Ron, the Affable Average Teenage Guy. And a lot of this > snark is at Neville's expense, behind his back. What did Neville > ever do to him? The worst crime a male is capable of, in Ron's eyes ? he asked Hermione out! Neville gets off a lot more lightly than Krum does. > When Ron utters the famous "Hermione, Neville's right--you are a > girl..." line... in which he cites NEVILLE as an authority > the same > character that Ron disparages just a few paragraphs up and throughout > the scene > > Hermione doesn't blush or flinch at all! > > If she does like Ron, I find it very strange that she doesn't quail > under Ron's very appraising look, followed by a grin. Don't you? I believe at this point she is still upheld by her righteous indignation. It takes her a few beats to change over into blush mode. > Then... look at this sequence: > > ****************** > "Hermione, Neville's right--you are a girl." > > "Oh, well spotted," she said acidly. > > "Well, you can come with one of us." > > "No, I can't," snapped Hermione. > ****************** > > Ha! She's *still* got an attitude with him here. It's all very "Ron, > you are an idiot" IMO. I just don't get any "I like you" vibes on > her part. (We have seen Hermione in "like" mode before with > Lockhart refer to CoS. Yes, I know that was merely a crush and > Ron is True Love, but still. *grin*) Umm, this is Woman Scorned mode. We've seen it before ? when Ron first went gaga over Fleur. Hermione is very right to have an attitude here, because Ron IS an idiot ("you are a girl," indeed!). What ? you would expect her to simper? > But then... notice the shift after Ron's next statement. > > "Oh, come on," he said impatiently, "we need partners, we're going to > look really stupid if we haven't got any, everyone else has..." > > "I can't come with you," said Hermione, *now blushing*... > > Uh-oh. > > Okay. Why does she only blush then and not along with the "Well > spotted" comment? And Ron's very thorough appraisal? Why the 180 > degree turnaround? > > ***** > "Oh come on," he said impatiently, "*we* need partners, *we're* going > to look really stupid if *we* haven't got any, everyone else > has . . ." > > Oh, this is *too* rich. > > When Ron says, "Well, you can come with one of us," > Hermione's cross > for an obvious reason Ron's just insulted her! But when Ron > pleads > (impatiently, might I add), he re-emphasizes the "we" *three > times* > > You see, my shipmates and I speculate that it occurs to Hermione that > Harry is included in those "we" statements. Because Ron says > we, > Harry is implied as well. And after all, Harry is Hermione's > focus > for large portions of the first four books that cannot be > ignored > and Harry is the one who *needs* a partner for the ball. Ron, being > a fourth year, *can go alone*. But Harry can't he is > required to > find a partner. I am certain that Hermione is aware of this. > > And she *blushes*. > > Squee! > > Gotta love it. Well, maybe that floats *your* boat ? goodness knows, your ship needs something to latch onto in this scene. It doesn't seem to accord very well with Hermione's complete lack of interest in the fact that Harry has just asked someone else and been turned down, or with Hermione's later claim that *Ron* asked her as a last resort. Here's *my* interpretation of the blush: "See, somebody likes me, even if *you* think I'm a troll, Ron Weasley ? so there! ? not that I care what you think, anyway, and I was certainly *not* hoping that *you'd* ask me ? I wouldn't go with you if you were the last wizard on earth!" > Another thing I noticed as I read this time around, when asked to do > the R/H in GoF essay, is something that I'd never noticed before. > In > this whole exchange, from the time that Hermione descends upon the > three (Ron, Harry, and Ginny) there is no H/H interaction *at all*. > It's a R/H conversation that Harry happens to witness. Harry doesn't > interject and Hermione doesn't ask him a single thing. About his > rejection, about who he might be taking to the ball, about *anything*. > While R/Hr-ers tend to take this sort of thing as total lack of > interest in anything Hermione does-feels-says-or-thinks on Harry's > part, I see it as JKR perhaps trying to keep things under the radar. > For a full two pages we have no interiority of Harry's which is > strange, as we usually have a *lot* Harry's interior thought, as > he > is the focalizer. Not until the man of action decides that enough is > enough and corrals Lavender and Parvati to find a solution to his > problem. Yet another example of "lack of evidence IS evidence, eh?" Actually, I take it as even stronger evidence of *Hermione's* lack of interest in *Harry*. At least Harry is watching, and finding out about Hermione having a date. Hermione doesn't have the slightest reaction to Harry's love life, doesn't find out who turned him down, and doesn't seem to care. Of course, Harry doesn't seem to care about Hermione's date either: **** Ooooh -- *who*? she said keenly. Harry shrugged. "No idea," he said. "So what about Ron?" **** But, uhh, yeah, I'd say Harry is acting as a simple conduit here because this is Ron and Hermione's scene. Assuming R/H is the actual plan, Harry's responses aren't very pertinent. Why slow the pace with a lot of "Harry was surprised" or "Harry winced at Ron's tactlessness"? > Well. Why not have Ron and Hermione fade into the background, while > Harry licks his emotional wounds over being rejected by Cho? Why not > have Harry notice Ginny, who's sitting right there what she > looks > like, what he thinks she might be thinking? Because she's got an R/H subplot to tell! That's what this scene is all about. > Perhaps she is not telling us what Harry's thinking because she > doesn't want us to know yet because perhaps even Harry > doesn't know himself. Or perhaps Harry is cast into depression by the startling news that Neville is straight and prefers Hermione to him. Could be anything, really, once you throw off the evidence of the text and start making wild wishful guesses. > (Sidenote that's slightly snarky: at the beginning of this > scene, > Ginny says "they've both just been turned down by girls they > asked to > the ball!" she makes it clear that both of the boys asked girls > to > the ball, but it is Ron whose case Hermione jumps all over. For a > girl who supposedly has such motherly interest where Harry's > concerned, she does not address him at all. She doesn't say a > word > to Harry during the entire scene either and usually Harry and > Hermione are pretty well tuned into one another, as every other canon > brief posted before me has shown. These are the things that make us > H/Hers go "hmm " I know, I know. It's probably > nothing. But I'm just sayin'.) Hey, I am a big fan of the Harry-Hermione philos, and I'm sure that, if Hermione had anything less riveting on her mind than her own love- life and her relationship with Ron, she would have given Harry's romantic predicament some sympathetic attention. But she was kind of busy there, with matters very important to her. > Okay, on to the "passionate" Yule Ball scenes. > > THE YULE BRAWL > (All quotes during the ball itself can be found on pp. 366-368, UK > trade paper edition.) > > ******************** > Hermione came over and sat down in Parvati's empty chair. She was a > bit pink in the face from dancing. > > "Hi," said Harry. Ron didn't say anything. > > "It's hot, isn't it?" said Hermione, fanning herself with her > hand. "Viktor's just gone to get some drinks." > > Ron gave her a withering look. "Viktor?" he said. "Hasn't he asked > you to call him Vicky yet?" > > Hermione looked at him in surprise. "What's up with you?" she said. > > "If you don't know," said Ron scathingly, "I'm not going to tell you." > > Hermione stared at him, then at Harry, who shrugged. > ********************* > ********************* > > I mean, really. All attraction aside, Hermione is supposed to be his > best friend. She's obviously having a great time, and so > Ron's > remark stops her in her tracks. She has no idea of what's going > on, > and neither does stupid-and-clueless Harry. > > ********************* > "Ron, what - ?" > > "He's from Durmstrang!" spat Ron. "He's competing against Harry! > Against Hogwarts! You - you're -" Ron was obviously casting around > for words strong enough to describe Hermione's crime, "fraternizing > with the enemy, that's what you're doing!" > > Hermione's mouth fell open. > > "Don't be so stupid!" she said after a moment. "The enemy! Honestly - > who was the one who was all excited when they saw him arrive? Who > was the one who wanted his autograph? Who's got a model of him up in > their dormitory?" > > Ron chose to ignore this. "I s'pose he asked you to come with him > while you were both in the library?" > > "Yes, he did," said Hermione, the pink patches on her cheeks glowing > more brightly. "So what?" > > "What happened - trying to get him to join spew, were you?" > > "No, I wasn't! If you really want to know, he - he said he'd been > coming up to the library every day to try and talk to me, but he > hadn't been able to pluck up the courage!" > > Hermione said this very quickly, and blushed so deeply that she was > the same color as Parvati's robes. > ******************** > ******************** > > Oh, so Hermione only blushes because she likes Ron? Seems to me > she's blushing about Krum's interest in *her*, bookworm > Hermione who > no one at Hogwarts sees as anything other than a brain. I'm not > saying that Ron doesn't like Hermione?he so obviously > does?but I think her thoughts are very much elsewhere. And I think she is blushing because she recognizes inwardly that she is bragging to Ron in a way that is likely to show him that she IS attractive to boys, after all, and maybe (hopefully?) make him jealous. She blushes *every* time she tells Ron about Viktor liking her. > Notice she doesn't blush until Viktor is mentioned. I keep > saying > that it's not because she likes him that she is blushing > being the > singular subject of intense male attention does make you blush. It > doesn't mean you are head over heels with the guy in question. > Ask > Anne Shirley when it comes to Roy Gardiner. Ask Jo March when it > comes to Laurie. Male attention is very flattering and it's > femininity-affirming something that Hermione really needs. > > Viktor, despite his surliness and introspective nature, is a guy that > a lot of girls want. I don't think people can relate to Hermione > in > this context unless they've been there it is a total triumph > when > you are the girl no one wants and then suddenly a guy from the A- list > recognizes your inner worth and digs you. Hermione's not so > much > embarrassed to admit this to Ron as she is embarrassed to admit it, > period. I think she'd blush if she were telling Lavender or > Dumbledore or her parents. ;-) So you think she blushed when she told Ginny? I don't. She didn't blush when Harry first saw her with Viktor, and found out about her `A-list' date. She didn't blush when Parvati, Pansy, Krum's fan club, and Malfoy were all gaping at her. She only blushed when she said *these* words to Ron: ***** "Yes he did (ask her in the library) so what?" ***** and ***** "No, I wasn't! If you *really* want to know, he ? he said he'd been coming up to the library every day to try and talk to me, but he hadn't been able to pluck up the courage!" ***** Note the words "if you *really* want to know." They give us the clue for whose sake Hermione is blushing, and his initials aren't VK! > ****************** > "Yeah, well - that's his story," said Ron nastily. > > "And what's that supposed to mean?" > > "Obvious, isn't it? He's Karkaroff's student, isn't he? He knows > who you hang around with. . . . He's just trying to get closer to > Harry - get inside information on him - or get near enough to jinx > him -" > > Hermione looked as though Ron had slapped her. When she spoke, her > voice quivered. > ****************** > ***************** > > *raises hand in obnoxious Hermione-fashion* > > Ooh, I know exactly why she did that! Ron's just insulted her on > two levels, hasn't he? Let's take a closer look. > > Harry has been a great deal of Hermione's *raison d'etre* for > four long years... and yes, Ron's too. Remember in PoA, during the > Shrieking Shack incident with Remus, Sirius, and Peter (as well as > Snape)? Their friendship went to a whole different level at the end > of that book, didn't it? When they realized they would both die > for Harry? Just like Ron, she's sacrificed a lot for his sake. > > For Ron to say that she'd jeopardize her friendship with Harry > and even his chances to win in such a haphazard fashion is positively > insulting. > > Even worse is Ron's casting aspersions on Krum's motive for > dating her in the first place! Of course Krum didn't notice that she > was a kind person and beautiful inside and not a troll on the outside, > either. The only valuable thing about Hermione Granger is her > friendship with Harry Potter, of course that's all Krum > sees. Of course. Yes, you are seeing this accurately. Ron, in his refusal to recognize the true source of his anger, has really landed a vicious punch here. "You're disloyal *and* not worth dating." Ouch! What do you tell the girls you *don't* have a crush on, Ron? ;) But note Hermione's reaction ? not anger, but hurt (as though Ron had slapped her) and a quivering voice. She *cares* whether or not Ron thinks she's worth dating, and it shows. When Draco Malfoy said "someone's asked *that* to the ball?" Hermione waved to Professor Moody and laughed. She doesn't care whether Malfoy thinks she's worth dating or not, but she sure seems to care what Ron thinks about that subject. > Again, yes I know that Ron likes Hermione. However, I don't > see > many reasons why any of this would cause Hermione to develop a > sudden romantic attachment to Ron. Quite the contrary, actually. It doesn't! She *already* likes Ron. This is just the sort of torture that authors are fiendishly fond of giving their characters who dare to like somebody. Ideally, *both* partners will feel rejected, and firmly convinced the other doesn't like them, and ? guess what! ? that's just what Ron and Hermione are feeling here. > Only look at how he's treating her. This sort of blatant and > Neanderthal disregard might turn some women on. I posit that it does > very little for Hermione. First, it makes her really, really mad. Then ? since she's a very smart girl ? it clues her in to the fact that Ron likes her after all. I suspect she is a little glad to know that, even though ? obviously ? she's not going to go out with him until he grows up and asks her properly. > So is she secretly in love with him? Or even in like? Or even on > the same page as those who foresee R/H romance upcoming in OotP? Well, yes. That's what this is all about, isn't it? Embarrassment, hurt, and confusion ? sounds like classic fictional love to me! > ************ > "For your information, he hasn't asked me one single thing about > Harry, not one -" > > Ron changed tack at the speed of light. > > "Then he's hoping you'll help him find out what his egg means! I > suppose you've been putting your heads together during those cozy > little library sessions -" > > "I'd never help him work out that egg!" said Hermione, looking > outraged. "Never. How could you say something like that - I want > Harry to win the tournament. Harry knows that, don't you, Harry?" > > "You've got a funny way of showing it," sneered Ron. > ************ > ************ > > Hypocritical much, Ron? Who's been more faithful to Harry in > GoF, Ron or Hermione? Wildly hypocritical ? especially considering that he asked Fleur! But *we* know why Ron is flailing around wildly like this. And by the end of the evening, it's clear that Hermione has figured it out as well. > ************** > "This whole tournament's supposed to be about getting to know foreign > wizards and making friends with them!" said Hermione hotly. > > "No it isn't!" shouted Ron. "It's about winning!" > > People were starting to stare at them. > > "Ron," said Harry quietly, "I haven't got a problem with Hermione > coming with Krum -" > > But Ron ignored Harry too. > ************** > ************** > > All right, Casanova! Ron really needs to straighten his > priorities > even if he's not aware that he likes Hermione yet, he could have > at least been civil to her as she is first and foremost his friend. > Instead he is letting his temper get the better of him yet again. If everyone conducted their romances with rationality and good manners, I'm sure the world would be a better place... but it would sure take a lot of fun out of these books! This is supposed to be funny and entertaining. Maybe it doesn't suit your tastes, but it certainly does suit mine! > ************** > "Why don't you go and find Vicky, he'll be wondering where you are," > said Ron. > > "Don't call him Vicky!" > > Hermione jumped to her feet and stormed off across the dance floor, > disappearing into the crowd. Ron watched her go with a mixture of > anger and satisfaction on his face. > > "Are you going to ask me to dance at all?" Padma asked him. > > "No," said Ron, still glaring after Hermione. > > "Fine," snapped Padma, and she got up and went to join Parvati and > the Beauxbatons boy, who conjured up one of his friends to join them > so fast that Harry could have sworn he had zoomed him there by a > Summoning Charm. > ************** > ************** > > Not only is Ron extremely impolite and rude to Hermione, now Padma is > subject to his vitriol as well. Eloise Neville and now > Padma? I > don't care if they're just minor characters, Ron just > isn't treating > them very kindly. Can you imagine Hermione falling for a guy who > thumbs his nose at others whenever he's in a bad mood? If so, > then you obviously detect a cruel streak in her character that I do not. Err, sure. And so can you, apparently, since Harry treats Parvati almost identically. I fail to see how Hermione falling for Ron would indicate that she has a "cruel streak." And remember, Eloise and Neville DON'T EVEN KNOW that Ron has been so "vitriolic" to them. Heh ? maybe *they* say vicious things about *him* in private -- who knows? And, no, I don't think that Ron falling for Hermione would show that he has a "cruel streak," either. I think that it is perfectly okay for Hermione to say that Krum isn't good-looking, and display scorn toward his groupies. I'm even willing to forgive her for making fun of Draco Malfoy about the ferret thing, making derogatory remarks about Fleur, and repeatedly calling Ron "stupid." I guess the thing is that I don't have your high moral standards, Eb. Try not to be too shocked, but I've even been known to occasionally say mean things and act rudely myself. So I guess my husband must have a cruel streak ? he fell in love with me. > Having fun is one thing. Pure meanness is quite another. And if I > felt sorry for Ron before mid-GoF (which I did), I lost a lot of my > empathy for him after reading this book. Having problems in your > own life is not an excuse to be nasty to others. I have no idea how > even the most rabid Ron fan can defend the mean things he says > before, during, and after the Yule Ball. They are totally > indefensible IMO. Now, I, on the other hand, didn't really *start* liking Ron until the Cat/Rat fight and the GoF fight. I liked him okay, but I didn't really *love* him until I started seeing his vulnerabilities and weaknesses and fears. I suppose I must have a blunted moral sensibility or something, but I simply cannot see what was so indefensible about what Ron said: - He said he didn't want to date an unattractive girl ? and named Eloise Midgen as the type of girl he meant; - He assumed (and said) that Neville Longbottom wasn't the type of girl Hermione, or anyone, would want to date; - He was incredibly rude to his date, Padma Patil; and - In his jealousy, he said a variety of extremely rude and stupid things to Hermione. I have, thank goodness, never had an occasion to do the fourth thing, but I blush to admit I have done all the other three. Talking in privacy with my friends, I have straight-out said I wouldn't want to date certain unattractive males. Again, in privacy, I have unthinkingly assumed that certain girls wouldn't be very attractive to boys. I have ? only once, but I was three years older than Ron ? shamefully ignored a man I was on a date with, because a man I preferred was present. I'm not proud of any of these, but I hope they're not `indefensible.' As for the fourth one ? yes, I can forgive that, too. And, I must say that on a list where Redeemable! Pettigrew and Sexy!Crouch Jr. are regular residents, I find the description of JealousPrat!Ron as "indefensible" slightly startling. > It literally broke my heart to read Ron's characterization in > GoF. I'm sorry, but no, it didn't. > I grow very wary whenever I witness someone in RL, in canon, or in > fandom get overly defensive. As I tell my students, the unusually > defensive usually are hiding something, methinks. If the accusations > are ridiculous, then why get so defensive? I fail to see how the "defensiveness" of members of the fandom can possibly have the slightest effect on JKR's intentions in writing the Harry Potter series. Are you saying that we should recognize that your point of view must be correct because your opponents act in a shifty-eyed manner? That's just silly. Your arguments must stand or fall on their own merits. In the past on this list, many arguments have been made that sparked an emotional reaction that one might call defensive ? Fred and George as bullies springs to mind, and both sides of The Prank. I think it would be ridiculous to argue that one side must be right because the other side was "defensive." Such things simply mean that you have struck a point on which people have strong opinions and emotional attachments. It certainly doesn't mean they are "hiding something"! What could we be hiding? That JKR sent us a letter, and it *is* H/H? > H/H shippers have repeatedly conceded both Harry *and* Hermione's > personality flaws. Rarely do we receive reciprocation on Ron's > part. I know personally of a few R/H shippers have conceded some of > our points about Ron's character, but the reason why many of the > more > astute H/Hers refuse to debate ship anymore is because we are often > confronted with this extreme irrationality when it comes to Ron. And > what is a debate, if it does not have reason as its basis? I would dispute your perception here. I have *never* met anyone who called themselves an R/H shipper who would not freely admit that Ron is hot-tempered, sharp-tongued, impulsive, somewhat lazy- or conventional-minded, a procrastinator, a wishful thinker, and frequently a complete and utter idiot. Now, if you try to get us to admit that Ron is headed on a path toward turning evil and betraying Harry to Voldemort ? no. I think that's preposterous. But I hasten to say the same of Harry and Hermione ? the idea of either of them turning evil is just as preposterous to me! > Okay, here comes the lovely sequence that I always get tossed into my > face whenever I ask for proof that Hermione likes Ron: > > ****************** > The Fat Lady and her friend Vi were snoozing in the picture over the > portrait hole. Harry had to yell "Fairy lights!" before he woke them > up, and when he did, they were extremely irritated. > > He climbed into the common room and found Ron and Hermione having a > blazing row. Standing ten feet apart, they were bellowing at each > other, each scarlet in the face. > > "Well, if you don't like it, you know what the solution is, don't > you?" yelled Hermione; her hair was coming down out of its elegant > bun now, and her face was screwed up in anger. > > "Oh yeah?" Ron yelled back. "What's that?" > > "Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not > as a last resort!" > > Ron mouthed soundlessly like a goldfish out of water as Hermione > turned on her heel and stormed up the girls' staircase to bed. Ron > turned to look at Harry. > > "Well," he sputtered, looking thunderstruck, "well - that just > proves - completely missed the point -" > > Harry didn't say anything. He liked being back on speaking terms > with Ron too much to speak his mind right now - but he somehow > thought that Hermione had gotten the point much better than Ron had. > **************** > **************** > > In my humble opinion, Penny explains away this bit of the chapter far > better than anyone else in the entire fandom. H/Hers, after *putting > this scene in its context*, just do not think that Hermione's > shout of "not as a last resort" is a deliberate come-on. > > Here's why. > > First of all, we wonder why JKR had Harry walk in *towards the end of > this debate*. We just don't understand the point of it, if JKR > was meaning to be transparent. As I have proven earlier, our wonderful > author has no problem with having Harry witness entire Ron-and- > Hermione scenes so what's up now? > > "Well, if you don't like it, you know what the solution is, don't > you?" > > What specifically is "it", Hermione? Why did JKR put that > pronoun in your mouth? What can't we know? Umm, could it be that JKR didn't have to tell us because it's so darn *obvious*? Let me think ? just taking a wild guess here ? I think the `it' that Ron didn't like was Hermione attending the Yule Ball with Krum. Do you seriously have another candidate to propose? The giant squid, perhaps? Broccoli? > We simply don't know what "it" is, because we walked in > along with > Harry at the end of the conversation. So we, like Harry, end up > making a lot of assumptions. > > "He somehow thought that Hermione had gotten the point much > better > than Ron had. > > What point, Harry? The point that they are arguing about. Ron thinks it is whether Hermione is being disloyal to Harry. But Harry knows that it is really about whether Hermione is being "unfaithful" to Ron. ;) > Going back to Hermione's famous statement: "Next time there's a > ball, ask me before someone else does, and not as a last resort!", we > wonder if Hermione is really issuing a real invitation to Ron, after > an honest read of the two chapters that led up to her frustrated > remark. She's seen what qualities Ron values in girls. > She's seen how he treated his date that evening. She's been repeatedly > insulted by him for no good reason at all. It's not an invitation, it's an order. She's telling him to put up or shut up. > As Linda says: "Maybe she did want Ron to ask her out and not as > a last resort. I don't know. But after the troll crack and the > doubting that anyone else besides Neville would ask her out - I'd be > damned pissed at him. I'd also be re-evaluating any attraction I > felt towards him." Ron is fortunate, then, that he has a crush on a more tolerant female. Hermione, apparently, feels that an honest and forthright ball invitation would be a sufficient admission and apology on Ron's part. Considering what the fight was *really* about, I think so too. All of Ron's "insults" become contentless once he admits that he is interested in Hermione. It is hard to argue that someone is unattractive if you are wildly attracted to them. If Ron asks Hermione out on a date, that proves she's NOT a troll, she IS a girl, Krum probably DIDN'T ask her just to get information about Harry, and she's NOT likely to be telling a social lie when she tells Neville she has a date. He will prove himself wrong on all counts. > Amen. Note also that her shout gives no indication that she'd > say "yes" to him if he did ask. Judging from the two > chapters that > just passed--I'd say not. Oh, well, that's a different story, isn't it? But I don't see how else it would be a "solution" to what he doesn't like. Of course, I'm still going by my silly assumption that I know what "it" is, but I plan to cling to it until I hear another plausible option for that mysterious word. > But as my analysis shows, the fundamental question of "does Hermione > like Ron as more than a friend?", a question that was posed to JKR > during a spring 2001 interview, has not been answered satisfactorily > in the #1 instance of the text cited to prove the case. But JKR said it was answered *somewhere* in GoF! I certainly think an instruction to ask her to the next ball is an excellent candidate to be that answer. If not here, where? I have never seen anyone on the H/H side of the debate give a credible suggestion for where that question was answered in the negative. Just where, in your opinion, should we look for assurance that Hermione *doesn't* like Ron as more than a friend? Angua From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Wed Jan 22 01:58:46 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:58:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Petunia as Squib In-Reply-To: <3E2DF3B1.E9390D60@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: <20030122015846.35745.qmail@web40512.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50272 Christopher Nuttall wrote: > > I don't think that Petunia is a squib because she takes no part in > the WW at all, while the only (?) squib we've seen so far, flitch, > seems to be able to take part in the WW (see hogwarts, use at least > some magic, etc) and work in it, even if he's not quite an equal. > Squibs must have some magic to see hogwarts and there would be NO > point in the Quickspell course if there was NOTHING to develop. > > Jazmyn: The point of a Squib is that they have no magic. Filch has no trouble seeing Hoggwarts because he KNOWS its there, thus any spells to make it look like something else wouldn't work on him. Far as I understand though, the castle only looks like ruins from the air to muggles, not when one is INSIDE it. It would be too dangerous though for a muggle to approach it on foot cause of the dangers of the forest and such, so they would have to be escorted there by a wizard at very least. Now me: I think that, however alike their magical capabilities, squibs and Muggles are not the same thing. The definition of a Muggle, I believe, is someone who has no magical blood in him and cannot do magic. A Squib cannot do magic either, but he has magical blood. That way, Muggle-repellling charms and Disillusionment charms (or whatever they're using on Hogwarts) would not affect Squibs if they are indeed cast to repel Muggles. Again, Lily was called a Muggle-born witch, which made her parents Muggles. That way, Petunia can't be a squib - she is a Muggle like her parents. But I think that since Lily is a witch, there must be something in her family that made her so, which in its turn can give Petunia and/or Dudley and/or Dudley's future offspring a better chance of being magical too, than somebody from a completely wizarding family. Maria, who thinks Dudley might develop magical powers in OoP. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From snorth at ucla.edu Wed Jan 22 02:34:47 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 18:34:47 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Breaking the Rules - Good and/or Bad, Snape in general References: <17b.14d7c8fc.2b5f53fd@aol.com> Message-ID: <000701c2c1be$d6486190$0100a8c0@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 50273 Oryomai: > I'm not saying that I wish Harry would follow the rules all the time - > God knows I don't. But I feel that Harry *is* Mr. High School in some ways. > I'm not saying that he never gets punished, but he gets alot of leinency > (sp). And let's be honest: Harry *is* a jock - he's the star of the > Quidditch team for Salazar's sake. Harry is just like the quarterback of the > football team. > I suppose this is more about Snape for me (as is everything). Anyone > else know that one teacher who wouldn't break the rules for the jocks - no > matter what? That's a part of Snape to me. I just think Snape > overcompensates for it by being extra mean. > Snape does this to everyone. Maybe he thinks everyone should be treated > the same - no matter what. He's mean to Neville (whose parents were tortured > and are now insane), he's mean to Hermione (she's a fantastic witch, but > Muggle born), and he's mean to Harry (who was orphaned by the greatest Dark > wizard in a hundred years). > That's why I love Snape. He may be a nasty git ... but at least he's > being fair (IMHO). Frankly, Harry is not a jock, or Mr. High School. These people bend rules, and use their skills for their own advantage, and are generally jerks. The ONLY person who gives Harry any leniency at all because of his Quidditch skills is McGonagall, and that's VERY rare. We've seen instances, but she's still very hard on him, and on Gryffindor's in general. If Dumbledore gives Harry any more leeway than other students, it's certainly not because of Harry's prowess on a broom. Personally, I think Dumbledore has looked the other way for some of Harry's rule-breaking (and in fact, encouraged some of it) because he feels it is better preparation for fighting Voldemort than he would otherwise receive in a classroom. Snape is a jerk. He is NOT fair. McGonagall is fair- we've seen nothing indicating that she treats students from any house any differently than how she treats Gryffindors (actually, she's easier on other houses, but that only emphasizes my point). We KNOW that Snape is nothing but biased against anyone not in Slytherin, and he very possibly hates Gryffindor more than Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw (hard to say, I'm not sure we've seen him interact with students from other houses, outside of the Quidditch match between Hufflepuff and Gryffindor he refereed in PS/SS, and Gryffindor was getting an abnormal number of penalties called against them). I'm not even going to call up evidence to support this, I'm fairly certain we can take Snape's pro-Slytherin bias as a given. Also, I find it ironic that anyone would consider anyone from Slytherin fair, since it would seem to me that doing anything to get ahead of the game (i.e. disregard for the rules) seems to be a prerequisite for being in Slytherin. Frankly, (this is a general statement) rules are in place to provide order. If most people try to follow them most of the time, all the better for everyone. However, in my opinion, 'strict observance of established rules is likely to prevent attaining a good outcome.' If everyone followed the rules all of the time, nothing would ever change, for better or worse. -Scott Who will teach his kids to question everything, except of course, their mother. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Jan 22 03:23:27 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 03:23:27 -0000 Subject: How will the Second Voldemort War be fought? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50276 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer " wrote: > The Second Voldemort War is on. It began when Voldemort killed > Cedric Diggory and was restored to his body. (All the things > before were the kind of nasty preliminaries that go before most > wars.) > > Since it is a war, I think it's useful to talk about it in war > terms. We have indications of Voldemort's and Dumbledore's > strategy: > > VOLDEMORT'S EARLY STRATEGY > > Undermine his main enemies, ...edit... > > Prevent Dumbledore from gathering his strength. ...edit... > > Deny his enemies their main base, Hogwarts. ...edit... > > Get control of Azkaban, ...edit... > > Prevent the Ministry from taking effective action against ..edit... > > DUMBLEDORE'S EARLY STRATEGY > > Act quickly to gather his cadre ...edit.. > > Gather intelligence as much as possible ...edit... > > Reach out to potential allies such as the Giants,...edit... > > Prevent Voldemort from getting control of Azkaban. Drive out the > Dementors. > > Keep Voldemort off balance. ... Disrupt his plans. > > Voldemort needs time, and Dumbledore means to deny it to him. > ...edit... > > If you accept these ideas as likely, then it's possible to predict > things that might happen in OP. What tactics each side will use is > - we don't know. > > Jim Ferer, who doesn't think a steel helmet is any good against spells bboy_mn: Excellent analysis. Voldemort: I can't take credit for this as other people have already said it. Voldemort's war will not be war fought on clearly draw battle lines; it will be a terroist war; a war of terrorizing. For the most part, it will not be a war of soldiers against soldiers. It will be random and brutal raids on the magic and muggle civilian population. Once Voldemort has sufficiently terrorized the population to the point where they cower in fear, frightened and helpless, at the slightest noise or even the mere thought of him, Voldemort will start attacking his primary targets, Azkaban, Hogwarts, and the homes of Dumbledore's allies. Initially, he will try to undermine the Ministry from within. Ideally, he will try to make Fudge look so bad that he can get one of his own men, probably Lucius, in charge. If that can't be done, then a direct attack would probably be sufficient to render the government totally ineffectual. In a sense, disbanding the government by force. The more chaos, disruption, confusion, and fear Voldemort can create, the less effective any potential resistance will be. General comments: I have nothing to base this on but a thought, but I foresee, someone besides Dumbledore being put in charge of Hogwarts. That person will probably be Malfoy. Getting him out of there and getting Dumbledore back will be one of the main subplots. SNAPE: I still think Snape is going to try to get back in Voldemort's good graces by claiming to be a double agent. Voldemort, when he spoke of Snape in the graveyard, did so will a small element of doubt; a hint of uncertainty. I think he is uncertain enough to at least hear what Snape has to say, rather than killing him on sight. I doubt that Snape can escape punishment though. If someone has a better idea of what Snape's roll will be, I'm open to it as long as it is within reasonable bounds of likelihood. DUMBLEDORE: Dumbledore is in a spot. He can't attack because there is nothing and nowhere to attack. All he can do for now is gather his forces, and react when things occur. All the accused Death Eaters are currently prominent and power citizens. Voldemort's were abouts is unkown. Then we are faced with the fact that Voldemort is not an easy guy to kill. Dumbledore needs enough gathered intelligents to catch Death Eaters in the act. That's going to be very hard to do in the beginning. Gathering his forces, Dumbledore will certainly send Hagrid and Madam Maxime to meet with the giants. That's good, as long as the giants don't kill them on sight. The Dementors? Should Dumbledore turn the Demontor loose; drive them out of Azkaban, or should he add additional forces to Akaban to force the Dementor to stay contained, and allow his own forces to protect the prison at the same time. If you turn the Dementors away; then they are going to go somewhere. If you can force them to stay at Azkaban, you at least have them contained. General Comment: As I said before, initially Voldemort's supporter will try to gain control from the inside. I think a significant subplot in the new book will be who ends up controlling the school. Cool ideas: An army (or air force) of dragon pilots lead by Charlie Weasley. Initially, a covert army of house-elves, who are a pipeline for secret information. Ultimately, ending with a fighting force of independant elves. [I've always assumed elves were somewhat telepathic, and believed they could communicate with each other over significant distances. Of course, that's pure fantasy on my part.] Wouldn't it be odd, if in the final showdown, it was Dobby who defeat Voldemort in an effort to protect Harry? The lowest of sevants who defeats the greatest of wizards. An army of werewolves once a month, lead by Lupin? Maybe that's going to far. Just a few thoughts, but I think it is safe to say the a lot of different subplot battles are going to be fought on the ground of Hogwarts this year, and those subplots will be complicated with a lot of teen angst. bboy_mn From pennylin at swbell.net Wed Jan 22 04:05:08 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 22:05:08 -0600 Subject: SHIP: The Yule Brawl--The Problem With Reading R/H in GoF References: Message-ID: <009701c2c1cb$73fe1b30$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 50277 Hi all -- I'm going to be snipping liberally from both Ebony and Angua's posts, because it's already gotten unwieldly. I will endeavor to keep enough context as necessary though. Angua: <<<>>>>> Are you saying that Ron is *baiting* Hermione deliberately here? I suspect that he was clueless and had perhaps even forgotten that she was even there. I think he *meant* that comment exactly as it sounded. Mind you, I think it's reasonably typical remarks from a 14-yr old boy ..... but I don't think he was trying to get a rise out of Hermione. <<<>> Well ...... why *would* she? She's quietly studying because she is surrounded by normalcy. When Ron makes an obviously chauvinistic, churlish remark, she reacts predictably. It would have gotten my attention too, notorious bookworm that I am. <<<>>>> I agree with you that she may or may not already have a date with Krum. I don't see any basis other than subjective wishful thinking though for your position that she's angry because she hoped that Ron would ask her and now her hopes are deflated. It's possible that she was hoping that Ron would ask her. It's equally possible she was hoping Harry or Krum or Neville would ask her. We have no idea who she had hoped to go with. All we know is that she's righteously angry with Ron for basing his dating choices solely on appearances. <<<>>>>> Well, first off: she wasn't curious about who RON might want to ask to the Ball either. Ron started that entire conversation. I sincerely doubt that Hermione was about to ask Ron or Harry who they hoped to go to the Ball with. But, more importantly, it wasn't Harry who had just behaved like an insensitive clod. It's appropriate that her reaction is focused on Ron; Harry hasn't *said* anything. If Ron had made his comment and then Harry had nodded or laughed or otherwise expressed agreement and *then* Hermione had focused her anger solely on Ron, you'd have a valid point. But, you don't. Ebony: > Fans are always > quick to defend Ron. but what about Hermione's feelings here? > > Hermione rightly calls Ron out on this. She is completely > unsympathetic about his plight, and who can blame her? Angua: <<<>>>>>>>>> I agree that she was very hurt by the trolls remark, but it may or may not have anything to do with personal feelings for Ron. Ahem. You rightly point out that Hermione did not hear Ron dissing Neville. But neither did she have any real reason to see that Ron was *down* and abject from Fleur's rejection. When Hermione walks in, the boys are *laughing.* So, I disagree that Hermione was being "uncharacteristically cruel." Besides, this is the M.O. for Ron/Hr, isn't it? Being sarcastic with just enough edge to be really cutting? Angua: <<<<>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, again, it wasn't *Harry* who made the insensitive Trolls comment. Ron also didn't even have the good sense to try & backtrack out of the mess he'd made ("Yeah ..... that sounds about right."). If Ron "rejected" Hermione, he did so based on appearances, didn't he? Shifting to the Yule Brawl: > "No, I wasn't! If you really want to know, he - he said he'd been > coming up to the library every day to try and talk to me, but he > hadn't been able to pluck up the courage!" > > Hermione said this very quickly, and blushed so deeply that she was > the same color as Parvati's robes. > ******************** > ******************** > > Ebony: Oh, so Hermione only blushes because she likes Ron? Seems to me > she's blushing about Krum's interest in *her*, bookworm > Hermione who > no one at Hogwarts sees as anything other than a brain. I'm not > saying that Ron doesn't like Hermione-he so obviously > does-but I think her thoughts are very much elsewhere. Angua: <<<<>>>>>>>>>> If she blushes *every* time she talks about Viktor liking her, that might be because *Harry is there.* I know the R/H fans think there is all this wonderful bantering R/H interaction happening off-page, but there's no canon on that. If we see Hermione blushing, Ron isn't the only boy in the Trio who's present. So, the blushes could be for Ron. But, they could be for Harry. Or, they could just be because she's thinking about Krum and being the object of his affections. Angua: <<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> She wasn't *speaking* to Harry or Parvarti or Pansy, and she was excited by all the attention. Angua: <<<<>>>>>>>>>> Hang on. If Ron hadn't thrown a vicious double-barreled punch, would her reaction still have been the same? In other words, isn't it possible that the real source of her *hurt* is because Ron accused her of disloyalty to Harry? I think you make my case. When Draco insults her on the basis of her appearance, she laughs it off. She smirks at Pansy and Parvarti, knowing full well that they are likely thinking something similar to what Malfoy voiced. So, why can't she laugh it off with Ron? It *could* be because she has romantic feelings for him. It's equally plausible that it's because it's Harry she cares about. Or, most likely, it's because Ron is her friend, and he's just accused her of being disloyal to their other best friend. Of course she's hurt. I would be too. Ebony:<<<<< "Well, if you don't like it, you know what the solution is, don't > you?" > > What specifically is "it", Hermione? Why did JKR put that > pronoun in your mouth? What can't we know?>>>>>>> Angua: <<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, I think you're exactly right about the "it," Angua. It makes no sense whatsoever for it to be anything else. But, the real divergence of opinion amongst the shippers relates to interpretation of her remark. My shipmates tend to think that she's very angry. He's again throwing this disloyalty thing in her face (so he's not even being upfront about the real reason for his anger). The "it" was not "Why did you go to the Ball with Krum .... I asked you!" It was "You were fraternizing with the enemy, going with Krum!" Her angry retort of asking her other than as a last resort becomes a little less personal in my mind under the latter scenario. She's not saying that she would accept. She's saying "Look buddy, you've no right to complain about who I go to the Ball with. You only asked me as a last resort ...... because you couldn't get someone prettier. But, if you want to change all that, don't ask me as a last resort ......and we'll see." Ebony: > "He somehow thought that Hermione had gotten the point much > better > than Ron had. > > What point, Harry? Angua: <<<>>>>>> No, the *point* is that Ron has a crush on Hermione. Hermione now knows this. Whether she reciprocates that feeling is not clear. This is December. If she *knows* he has a crush on her *and* she reciprocates it, why doesn't she stop spending time with Krum and focus on trying to get Ron to grow up and face his feelings? She goes from at least January - June (6 mths), knowing full well that her love interest likes her back ...... and she does nothing to encourage him to get a move on? :::remembers being 14/15 and is confused by this scenario:::::::::: <<<<<<<<<<> But as my analysis shows, the fundamental question of "does Hermione like Ron as more than a friend?", a question that was posed to JKR during a spring 2001 interview, has not been answered satisfactorily > in the #1 instance of the text cited to prove the case.>>>>>> Angua: <<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>> I think the answer is that she likes Harry ........ though maybe she likes them both. But, frankly, if I wanted R/H to be an ultimate happy-ever-after resolution, I'm not so sure I'd be jumping up & down by the idea that they might date at age 15. Quite rare, even in fiction, even in the wizarding world, for that to work out as a long-term relationship. Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Malady579 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 22 04:39:56 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody ) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 04:39:56 -0000 Subject: Dementors - How do you defeat them? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50278 Pickle Jimmy asked: >Where do the dementors come from? Other than using patroni to drive >them 'away' can we do anything more to them? How do the ministry >control them anyway? Do people that are "soul sucked" by dementors >become dementors (like werewolves)? How many dementors are there? >Could voldemort make more dementors, and if he could why would he >need Azkaban - wouldn't he just make his own rather than freeing the >already existing ones? Do dementors die or are they dead already? Is >this the final state of Voldemort - dementormort? ::sigh:: A line of questions that tumble upon themselves. I adore it. Let me clip it about a bit. >Can you destroy/kill a dementor? >Do dementors die or are they dead already? So let's see. Maybe we should first define what a dementor actually is. Based on the categorizations in FB&WTFT they are not a beast or being, so they must be a spirit. They do glide (GoF Ch31) like a ghost, though I don't think it is quite right to call them a ghost. It seems they classify best in that category at least. So then being a spirit, it is not alive and thus cannot die. Dementors actually get a long description. At least, long for JKR standards. They have human form with hands, head, mouth. It breaths but I don?t think you can suffocate them. In PoA Ch20, their hands could lower their hood and grasp Harry to bring their mouth to kiss him. Hmmm...that gives them substance. Maybe they are not spirit. How odd. Now I am confused. >How do the ministry control them anyway? >Other than using patroni to drive them 'away' can we do anything more to them? If they are beings, then they can be contained by the ministry because beings have a perishable body and thus can be "hurt" or killed. But if they are a spirit, then the ministry must be able to threaten them somehow, like with Myrtle, to make them follow their rules or concessions. Maybe it is solely on the patronus charm. A really good patronus can drive hundreds away as evident in PoA. A wizard's advantage. As long as the dementor's stay at Azkaban it is a sort of safe haven from wizards using the patronus on them. I wonder if it hurt them? I wonder if it causes them to feel happy so they feed on themselves? >Do people that are "soul sucked" by dementors become dementors (like werewolves)? >How many dementors are there? >Could voldemort make more dementors, and if he could why would he need Azkaban - wouldn't he just make his own rather than freeing the already existing ones? They have human-like bodies, yet I cannot see dementors...shall we say...paired off in the Caribbean on a honeymoon together. they must create more somehow, but then, if they cannot be destroyed then that is unnecessary. For they do not die. Just are driven away. Oh, that is depressing. They always linger around waiting for their chance. I do not see Barty Jr. being a dementor now. Interesting if that is true though. We have Barty Jr. being loyal to Voldemort in post-soul suck also. Would then, if Harry was soul-sucked, he become a dementor just child sized? Does a dementor, if born from the kiss, retain any of its personality as a human? They all seem to be faceless or rather indistinguishable themselves, so it seems they are perfect cookie cutters of each other. Given that the dementor character is based on what causes depression, it seems almost the they are indestructible to me. They have an inexhaustible hunger and deep searching "eyes" to find victims. Almost as if their sole purpose on the earth is to devour happiness until it does not exist. Wait - that is their purpose. They are indiscriminate in their victim. Do not care of the race, creed, or age. They care only for themselves and their needs, and to that they satisfy themselves. Seems, they have no soul in which to plead to. So I guess Pickle Jimmy, I see dementors as a sort of solid spirit that cannot be destroyed but can manipulate solid objects. Ok that is a paradox really. I think they are just here from the beginning. A set number that wander to quench their hunger. They have no defenses to protect themselves except the ability to bring beings to catatonic states with their presence and of course "the kiss." Wizards can trump them but must be powerful enough to do it. Their effects can be treated once they are gone, but all succumb to their whim. Oh they are nasty little creatures aren't they even without physical descriptions. One last question by Pickle Jimmy: >Is this the final state of Voldemort - dementormort? I don't think so mainly because...hehe...I can't believe I am about to say this...it is not bangy. Come now. JKR *will* bang Voldemort's final end. Somehow, Voldemort the dementor that can suck out poor defenseless souls is not the sort of end JKR is shooting for. Maybe...but I will not put money one it. Melody From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Wed Jan 22 05:18:45 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius ) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 05:18:45 -0000 Subject: The Skrewt May Scratch (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50279 We haven't had a G & S filk for a while, so...... The Skrewt May Scratch (GoF, Chap 14) To the tune of When Our Gallant Norman Foes from Gilbert and Sullivan's The Yeoman of the Guard Dedicated to Ginger (hope you like G & S!) Text and MIDI can be found at: http://math.boisestate.edu/gas/yeomen/web_opera/yeomen_03.html THE SCENE: Gryffindor Common Room. HARRY & RON are struggling through Divination homework. Crookshanks observes from the background HARRY When the galling Trelawney Doles out homework sans mercy Through each page we must then spend the evening slogging Our clairvoyance is scrawny And it turns out much worse, see, When decrees she gives to start Futures Unfogging RON Insanity, indeed But if we're to graduate We must now invent some plausible predictions Sums and symbols can't succeed We just cannot calculate So we must devise for us ingenious fictions (RON & HARRY simultaneously take up their quills and begin writing) BOTH "The skrewt may scratch and then it may burn And we may need a funeral urn A coughing fit and a losing fight Will show to all our dismal plight "Venus will conjoin Saturn and Mars Inside a house with numerous stars We are betrayed by an evil force Than would kill us and makes us hoarse" HARRY (putting his quill down) Oh, our Inner Eye can't see As its two pupils grow blind For this topic is beyond our comprehension It's no time to get fancy We must not be left behind For necessity's the mother of invention RON Though our methods may be flawed What our audience demands Is narrative of gloomy desolation Sibyll's certain to applaud If we prove we can't withstand The impact of celestial mutations (RON & HARRY again take up their quills and begin writing) BOTH "The skrewt may scratch and then it may burn And we will need a funeral urn A coughing fit and a losing bet Will show to all our dismal threat "Saturn will conjoin Pluto and Mars And woe to boys who have forehead scars! They'll be deceived by a vile force That will not show too much remorse" (Crookshanks walks away in disgust) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (next update: 01.26.03) From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed Jan 22 05:34:03 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr ) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 05:34:03 -0000 Subject: Dementors - How do you defeat them? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50280 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pickle_jimmy " wrote: > I was just reading Jim Ferer's post about VW2 (voldy war 2) and he > mentioned that one thing Dumbledore's side would need to do is > > "Prevent Voldemort from getting control of Azkaban. Drive out the > Dementors." > > So my question to the collective genius of HP4GU is "Can you > destroy/kill a dementor?" Hmm... I wonder if enough wizards casting their patronus at once could do it? An overdose of light and hope? In the following paragraph, I'll break in wherever I have any kind of and idea for an answer: > > Where do the dementors come from? Other than using patroni to drive > them 'away' can we do anything more to them? How do the ministry > control them anyway? I bet the MoM have some kind of tenuous deal: the dementors will stay on their island with the prison and leave the rest of the WW alone, and the MoM will see that the dementors get the "food" they want. NOT very conducive to justice for accused wizard criminals, is it? The MoM have skilled patronus-casters to ensure dementor cooperation when necessary. Do people that are "soul sucked" by dementors > become dementors (like werewolves)? I don't think so. I see the dementors as non-humans, and the soul-sucked as warehoused at St. Mungo's (in a *very* creepy ward). How many dementors are there? > Could voldemort make more dementors, and if he could why would he > need Azkaban - wouldn't he just make his own rather than freeing the > already existing ones? Do dementors die or are they dead already? Is > this the final state of Voldemort - dementormort? I just said above that I saw dementors as non-human, but you do make me wonder. > > Pickle Jimmy I haven't been much help, I suppose, but I am about to make things worse, because you have brought to my mind some things I just don't 'get' about dementors. Dementors are supposed to suck out your soul so that it is "lost forever". Well, as a Christian, I just can't get over something that can make you lose your soul apart from your own actions. The "willing suspension of disbelief" won't extend so far when I read this part. I just put getting "soul-sucked" into a cubbyhole in my mind marked "fate worse than death" and kind of pass over it. I wonder how many other people (of whatever faith) have this same problem with the dementor's kiss? The best I can muster, if I stop to think about it at all, is that the souls can be lost inside the dementor, in torment perhaps, until the end of time or the end of the dementor, whichever comes first (harsh, isn't it?) -- and then it's finally on to "the next great adventure." But in that case, of course, they would not be lost forever. I sure would appreciate seeing anyone else's thoughts on this! Annemehr From fausts at attglobal.net Wed Jan 22 06:27:41 2003 From: fausts at attglobal.net (anguaorc ) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 06:27:41 -0000 Subject: SHIP: That Darned Kiss--The Problem With Reading R/H in GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50281 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ebony " wrote: > (Second half of my essay excerpts. I'd post more of it, but I just > saw my previous post was over 30K, and now must accordingly hide from > the Mod Squad and everyone on digest. --Eb, going back to lurkdom.) Erk! and I see that mine was (blush) 47K. Mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa. But this one will be shorter ? I swear. This is a reply to Ebony's second post, #50157, titled "That Darned Kiss--The Problem With Reading R/H in GoF." It, too, will be eventually cross-posted on the accursed FictionAlley Debate Thread. > PADFOOT RETURNS?THE SECOND RITA SKEETER ARTICLE > > ********************* > "I told you!" Ron hissed at Hermione as she stared down at the > article. "I told you not to annoy Rita Skeeter! She's made you out > to be some sort of- of scarlet woman!" > She looked over at the Slytherins, who were all watching her and > Harry closely across the room to see if they had been upset by the > article. Hermione gave them a sarcastic smile and a wave, and she, > Harry, and Ron started unpacking the ingredients they would need for > their Wit-Sharpening Potion. (GoF p. 445 UK paper) > ********************** > > Wow. I have to say this, as a tangential observation--one of the > reasons why I just love Hermione for Harry is because she is > definitely the only girl in canon who's strong enough to handle > the > press and the pressure that would result from being Harry's girl. Well, so far as we know I truly doubt that she's the only girl at Hogwarts with such strength. > Anyway, I love how Hermione deals with the rumors summarily but > never outright denies them. She declares this Skeeter article to > be "rubbish"?which it is, after all. In it, she's > accused of two- timing Harry for Krum's sake. This is so antithetical to her > character that it doesn't make her angry. She finds it funny. > So she dismisses the article as completely ridiculous. > Note that she *never* calls the first article "rubbish", > though. Ahh, but because of the Ron-Harry fight, we don't see what she says about it in front of Ron. ;) More seriously, under what circumstances would you expect to see Hermione denying it? To Harry? He knows it's not true. To the Slytherins? It's none of their business. Where is her *opportunity* to set the record straight? > Just "ignore it" is her only suggestion for Harry not > vehement protest of the kind she showed at the Yule Ball, or the amusement > she's expressing at this point. Hermione doesn't even seem > incredulous when faced with that first article. She doesn't get > angry as she did when Ron accused her of being disloyal to Harry at > the Yule Ball. Instead after that first autumn article she just > holds her head high and keeps right on hanging with Harry and > her grace under pressure is something that he admires. Yes. In fact, her behavior is perfectly consistent with a person who has nothing to hide and nothing to be embarrassed about. Not at all the behavior of someone whose secret wishes have just been exposed to the public eye! > ********************* > "There's something funny, though," said Hermione ten minutes later, > holding her pestle suspended over a bowl of scarab beetles. "How > could Rita Skeeter have known . . . ?" > "Fascinating though your social life undoubtedly is. Miss Granger," > said an icy voice right behind them, and all three of them jumped, "I > must ask you not to discuss it in my class. Ten points from > Gryffindor." (GoF p. 445-446 UK paper) > ********************** > > Is Hermione blushing because of some more-than-friendship feeling for > Ron? Nope. Yep. Embarrassed yet again to be seeming to try to make him feel jealous, when *really* she's just trying to discuss the Rita Skeeter problem. It's Ron's eye she's "determinedly avoiding" in the blushing sentence. That's a *clue*, folks. > Remember, she didn't blush under his intense scrutiny > when it had nothing to do with Krum . Yet here again she's > blushing hotly *but they're talking about Krum again*. Yes, talking about the very subject that made him so jealous at the Yule Ball, the very subject that caused her to so forget herself as to say, "next time ask me before somebody else does and not as a last resort." Very, very embarrassing subject to talk about with Ron! A lot has happened since the time Ron looked at her as if seeing her in a whole new light. *Then* she managed to hold off the blush for a few seconds. *Now* she blushes scarlet as she says it, BEFORE he even starts looking at her. The idea that she's blushing for Krum's sake seems very far-fetched to me. She wasn't blushing at the second task, when Krum actually invited her to Bulgaria and told her he'd never felt like this before. She wasn't blushing when Krum came over to say his goodbyes in Chapter 37, or when they returned from their private talk. She wasn't blushing when *she saw Krum in his swimsuit* in Chapter 24! I think it's pretty clear that Krum, qua Krum, is not blush-inducing. It's only *when talking about Krum to Ron* that the blushes come, and then, only when she's sharing *new* information about how much Krum likes her. >Not only that and I know I'm going to get yelled at for this one Harry is once > again sitting right there! It was he who was mentioned in the article > not Ron. Hermione is embarrassed to talk about Krum and blushes - which > could be that she doesn't want to admit it in front of Ron *or* Harry. I'm not yelling ? I'm yawning. Yeah, *sure* it's about Harry. That's why she's avoiding *Ron's* eye. If it was about Harry, why didn't she blush earlier? As you said, the *article* is about Harry ? and Krum. But no ? no blush for that. It's only when she's talking to *Ron* about Krum that she blushes. Krum, the cause of the Yule Ball fight. Krum, the one that made Ron so jealous he made a complete fool of himself. Krum, the dangerous subject. > And then Ron starts pounding the counter with his pestle half a foot > from his beetles. She avoids his eyes because he's looking at her > and crushing the desk with a pestle. If I were her, I'd avoid > looking at someone in the eye who was acting like that too. Hermione starts avoiding Ron's eye *before* he drops the pestle, *before* he starts looking at her and pounding the counter. That can't be the reason. > Another reason why Hermione looks away is because she looks away > because she knows that mentioning Krum leads to arguments with Ron. > I bet she's trying to avoid a row this time. Like Harry, I think she > likes being on speaking terms with Ron because Ron is her > *friend*. The last time she mentioned Krum (when they saw him jumping in the lake during their walk to Hogsmeade), it didn't lead to an argument with Ron. And does she really think that avoiding his eye will help? The normal, usual reason that you avoid someone's eye is that you don't want them to read *your* expression. What is Hermione trying to hide, huh? I think *I* know. You do not mention R/H-shipper Snape here. :) Why does Snape separate *all three of them*? ***** "Well, I think I had better separate the three of you, so you can keep your minds on your potions rather than on your tangled love lives." ***** It sounds like Snape has once more put two and two together as only he can. > THE THINGS HERMIONE DOES NOT DO > > Nothing else about the Harry Potter series makes me feel as if > we're > reading two different books more than this argument does. H/Hers > have been told repeatedly by R/H shippers that the reason for > everything from Hermione grabbing Harry in the Top Box at the > Quidditch World Cup (94) to her constant talk about him to Viktor > Krum (479-480), to That Kiss (636), is evidence of a comfort and an > ease with Harry that she does not feel with Ron. In other words, > Hermione is comfortable touching, kissing, and talking about Harry > because she sees him as a brother, whereas the fact that she does not > touch, kiss, or talk about Ron in the text quite as often is seen as > tacit R/H subtextual evidence. > > Okay. Well, we don't *all* say those. I think Hermione grabbed Harry in the Top Box because he was seated next to her, talked about both Ron and Harry to Viktor Krum, and kissed Harry because he had a horrible experience and was going to spend the summer at the Dursleys. > I would totally buy that if I saw anywhere in canon that Hermione is > uncomfortable talking to Ron or any other reason other than Viktor or > avoiding an argument in general. She simply isn't. She is more > than willing to engage with Ron if she thinks he is wrong. She is willing > to give as good as she gets. Other than the two reasons listed > above, she does not back down from Ron. Well, we don't see her telling Harry *and Ron* about the Sleakeazy's Hair Potion (Ch. 24) ? only Harry. Hermione acts "strangely formal" with Ron, and turns away to hide her smile when Ron asks Krum for an autograph in Chapter 37. She doesn't say anything about Mrs. Weasley and the Easter eggs. I'm not sure how uncomfortable you expect her to get ? she and Ron have been best friends for over three years. > She isn't uncomfortable hugging Ron. She hugs him in PoA and in > GoF. Both times it is Ron who is uncomfortable, not her. > Where's the physical awkwardness on her part? Overcome with strong emotion, both times. Interestingly, both times the source of the emotion is the same ? an emotional reunion with Ron (one with her, one with Harry). > On the other hand, I see evidence in canon that Hermione is very > conscious of what Harry thinks. Other than the Firebolt incident, > Harry's opinion of Hermione appears to be very important to > her and > is generally very high. In PoA, he stops a tirade of hers with a > single statement, checks on her when she is swamped with work > (whereas Ron could care less), and encourages her to have fun. In > GoF, he stops her from saying anything about Hagrid with a look. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and Hermione looks "hurt" when Ron implies that he doesn't like Tom Riddle because he's head of his class, looks "rather flattered" when Ron compliments her on her daring in PoA, stops at a few words from Ron when she is ragging on Harry about lying to Sirius, says "*he* doesn't want me to join in" when Harry invites her to join the Quidditch party in PoA (and runs sobbing from the room when Ron proves her statement true), is pleased as can be when Ron notices her new teeth, beams at Ron's open admiration for her capture of Rita Skeeter, giggles when Ron calls her a "scarlet woman," throws her arms around Ron's neck and sobs when he vows to help her with the Buckbeak case, smiles secretly when Ron shows respect for Viktor Krum, accepts an invitation to spend two weeks with Ron's family, behaves in a very friendly fashion to Ron's father, seems quite hurt at coldness from Ron's mother, confides in Ron's sister, allows Ron to move her hands and see her teeth after Malfoy hits her with the Densaugeo curse, takes a strong dislike to the girl Ron has a crush on (Fleur), shuts Ron up when his Yule Ball date (Padma) starts hanging on his words after the Second Task, is quick to contradict Ron when he says that she likes Cedric Diggory because he is handsome, and, oh yeah, is really hurt by the notion that Ron doesn't think she's attractive. So I'd say there is evidence in canon that Hermione is very conscious of what Ron thinks, too. :) > And we still don't know what Hermione's boggart is, do we? > We have to take her word for it. Is it really failing every subject or > is it finding Harry dead? > One wonders why Lupin didn't let her attack the boggart during > the classroom lesson. That's significant. You can't see me, but I'm rolling my eyes like crazy. Isn't it fun making up imaginary evidence? We R/H shippers like to imagine the touching scenes when Hermione woke Ron up after the chess game and when Ron was there as Hermione woke up from being Petrified, but we don't usually unleash our sappy fantasies onto the unsuspecting general public. I wish you would use the same restraint. > Back to The Things Hermione Does Not Do. I think this is definitely > related to The Dates and Fun Times that Ron and Hermione Have That We > Do Not See, What? But we do see them ? that's the whole point! We see them "looking like they'd had the time of their lives," we see them eating ice cream, brown and freckly and talking happily of new wands and biting books. We see them buying gifts for Harry together. We see them playing chess and testing Ron on Astronomy and sitting in the best chairs in front of the fire doing star charts and munching on toast and marmalade in the empty Quidditch stands. I'm not sure why you see this as a "myth." Looks like plain and simple black and white text to me. > The Other Kiss at the End of GoF, Now, that one *is* a myth, and shouldn't be brought up. The only problem is that H/H shippers keep saying "she didn't kiss *Ron* now, did she? Nyah, yah, yah." And we can't help saying, "well, not as far as we *know*" since Ron and Hermione were still together when Harry walked off with Vernon. But, really, we don't think she did. Anyway the "Other Kiss" is surely as canonical as the "Harry's Death Boggart," Harry's "hidden feelings" when he hears Hermione talking to Ron about "you're a girl," and other speculative froth you have brought up here. > R/Hers think that when Ron and Hermione are together, they have fun > that isn't very Harry-related. Well. We've seen several > instances > throughout the text of Ron/Hermione together without Harry. > We've caught glimpses of them, especially in PoA and GoF. In PoA (again, > forgive me for dipping back a book), there's Ron and Hermione at > Honeydukes, together but when Harry comes over, they don't > act weird > or awkward. They yell for him to come over, obviously very happy to > see him. They're all glad to be together after a long > summer that's > the impression I get from that scene. I think you mean at Florean Fortescue's. Uhh, yeah, we didn't say Ron and Hermione were having secret snogging sessions. Why would they act weird or awkward? All we say is that they have fun together by themselves, and I think that it's clear that they do. I'm not sure how them also continuing to have fun together after Harry joins them is a problem. Of course they're glad to see their friend! > And then when we > see Ron and Hermione together in Honeydukes, they're having yet > another conversation about Harry! Umm, so? Hermione was delighted to go to Hogsmeade with Ron (PoA Ch. 10): ***** "We can do all our Christmas shopping there!" said Hermione. "Mum and Dad would really love those Toothflossing Stringmints from Honeydukes!" ***** And, sure enough, when Harry arrives he finds them at Honeydukes, buying presents, though they seem to be discussing gag gifts for Harry, rather than serious gifts for Hermione's parents. I'm still unclear about why the mention of Harry's name somehow discredits the fact that they're having fun together. It's one of those Pumpkin Pie things that I've never quite understood. I notice that you skipped right over the *first* trip to Hogsmeade, the "time of their life" one (PoA Ch. 8). Here's what they have to say about it: ***** "Thanks," said Harry, picking up a packet of tiny black Pepper Imps. "What's Hogsmeade like? Where did you go?" By the sound of it, everywhere. Dervish and Banges, the wizarding equipment shop, Zonko's Joke Shop, into the Three Broomsticks for foaming mugs of hot Butterbeer, and many places besides. "The post office, Harry! About two hundred owls, all sitting on shelves, all colour-coded depending on how fast you want your letter to get there!" "Honeydukes have got a new kind of fudge, they were giving out free samples, there's a bit, look ?" "We *think* we saw an ogre, honestly, they get all sorts at the Three Broomsticks ?" ***** I'm sorry, I find it impossible to believe that they talked of nothing but Harry, Harry, Harry through all this: "Look, Ron, behind that boy who looks like Harry -- I think that's an ogre!" "Gosh, too bad Harry's not here to see it!" "Yes." (sigh) "Shall we go to the post office? Maybe we could send a letter to Harry!" "Yeah!" (brightens up) "Nothing's any fun without Harry." But, you know what, even if they did, I don't care. At least they have fun together. I actually know some other people who have fun together talking of nothing but Harry Potter. Us, for instance. > It's the same at the Quidditch World Cup, when Harry gets to the > Burrow. Hermione isn't with Ron; she's with Molly and Ginny. Umm, Ebony, I think you've forgotten something ? Ron wasn't there! He was off picking up Harry, remember? Maybe you should ask why Hermione chose tother hang around with Ginny rather than go pick up Harry too. > Of course she sits with Ron during all those Quidditch games and > Triwizard Tournament matches?there is absolutely nothing in canon > to indicate that she ever is anything other than totally Harry- focused > during his games and the Tournament. Sure there is. ***** "Dumbledore was really angry," Hermione said in a quaking voice. "I've never seen him like that before " PoA Ch. 9 `I was going to suggest a Conjunctivitus curse, as a dragon's eyes are its weakest point ?` "That's what Krum did," Hermione whispered. GoF Ch. 23 "Well I was too busy seeing whether *you and* Harry were OK to ?" GoF Ch. 27 Harry could just make out Mrs. Weasley, Bill, Ron, and Hermione applauding Fleur politely, halfway up the stands. GoF Ch. 31 ***** Now, I'm not sure why I even bothered with that, because normally, of course, Hermione is very focused on Harry's performance and safety when he's playing Quidditch or otherwise in danger. Is that bad? She can still have fun, and hug Parvati Patil, and yell to Ron, and stuff. She can still budge up next to Ron to make room for Hagrid. I don't see why either of them focusing on Harry is a detriment to their having fun together. > So the things that Hermione does not do are evidently eclipsed by the > things she does do. She is great friends with Ron, but it is just > that?friendship. Well, up until GoF, Chapter 23. It's hard to say it's *just* friendship after that. > I do think she's very aware of how Ron feels about her, and > isn't sure how to deal with it. I think throughout GoF she is sorting out > her feelings for both of the boys but by the end, as JKR has > alluded in interviews, she's got a better handle on it all than Ron does. Ahh, what you are referring to is: "yes, something's 'going on' (between Ron and Hermione)... but Ron doesn't realise it yet... typical boy"? Clearly implying that Hermione does realize that something's `going on' -- *that's* what she has a better handle on. I'm not sure where your idea about her sorting out her feelings for *Harry* comes from ? I don't recall any interview where *that* is alluded to. Please enlighten me! > Well, then. If Hermione *doesn't* like Ron in that > way--gulp--then is > she interested in anyone at all? But she does like Ron in `that way.' > Although only the last three books of canon will tell the tale, I > think we may be beginning to see somewhat of an answer towards the > end of GoF. I'll conclude with something I've only thought > of in the past few months, after 2.5 years in the debate. > > THAT DARNED KISS > "Bye, Harry!" said Hermione, and she did something she had > never done > before, and kissed him on the cheek. (GoF, UK paper ed., p. 636) > > So I will not tell you why Hermione kissed Harry, or whether that > will be significant in future books. I cannot get into > Hermione's (or JKR's) head. I will not presume to do so now. I'm sorry ? excuse me while I giggle and snort a little. Okay, all done ? I'm back. > I can only speculate on why (as far as we know) she does not kiss Ron. > > First, she doesn't kiss Ron not necessarily because she feels > anything for him and it would be awkward but because *she knows > how he feels about her*. If she knows Ron likes her, and does not feel > the same, then to kiss him would be to lead him on. It would be mean > and unfair. And if she does like him, it would be too embarrassing! > Second, her kissing Harry had nothing to do with making Ron jealous. > That reading of canon, along with Hermione Went To The Ball With Krum > To Make Ron Jealous, assumes a more Roncentric Hermione worldview > than I am willing to concede before I see new canon. This Hermione > fan doubts if Hermione was thinking "gee, let's make Ron ever > madder -- let's go to the ball with Krum and look fab!" or "gee, > let's make Ron jealous by kissing Harry it's about time Ron noticed > me." As I have shown above, I don't think theViktor thing was as much about Ron > as it was about *Hermione* -- Hermione and the way she views herself as an > emerging young woman. I agree with you on the kiss ? of *course* she wasn't trying to make Ron jealous. And I agree with you on the Ball, too. Hermione did not go with Viktor to make Ron jealous ? that was simply a nice bonus. > Third, I think she kisses Harry and not Ron because Harry needed that > kiss far more than Ron does. He's just been through quite the > ordeal. He is about to go out into the Muggle world, and the place > he is going will be totally unsupportive about what he's going > through. The Dursleys will not understand what he is going > through > and neither does anyone else in the world, really. Yes, of course this is the reason. How could anyone doubt it? It's the same reason Molly hugs him very tightly, Ron claps him on the back, Bill claps his shoulder, Hagrid gives him a one-armed hug and tousles his hair, Sirius grasps his shoulder, Fawkes sits on his knee, Molly hugs him, etc. Because he NEEDS it. > That kiss is a gesture that speaks far less of superficial > "like" than it does of a deep and abiding friendship. It was also something > that only Hermione has ever does *in this context*. Uhh, so? Molly is the only one who has ever hugged him tightly *in this context*. Hagrid is the only one who has ever tousled his hair *in this context*. Not sure I'm getting your point here. As best as I can tell, you're just trying to avoid mentioning that Hermione is actually the SIXTH female to kiss Harry on the cheek in the books. > JKR is the one > who makes it significant by flagging it in the text ("And she did > something she'd never done before "). Yeah, but JKR also "flags as significant" Vernon visiting Harry in his cupboard in PS Ch. 3: ***** That evening when he got back from work, Uncle Vernon did something he'd never done before; he visited Harry in his cupboard. ***** I will admit that this visit by Uncle Vernon was part of a big change in Harry's life, but it didn't exactly live up to its promise of better and more meaningful relations between them. > Now, Harry doesn't > have any memory of his parents or any other relatives pecking his cheek like > that, and there was no one else in his life who ever would kiss him > so casually. Sure, the Chasers have done it in great moments of > excitement, but not in that context. And Molly. And Fleur. Fleur was the first person ever to kiss Harry on the cheek *in the context* of thanking him for a heroic deed (GoF Ch. 26). Big whoop! Molly was the first person ever to kiss Harry on the cheek *in the context* of a greeting (GoF Ch. 31). So? And Molly's was quite casual. > Again, if JKR hadn't added that phrase--"and she did > something she'd never done before"--I would have had no reason to revise my > reading. > I mean, in a chapter entitled "The Beginning"--a chapter that > seems as if it's going to be the turning point of the series? There are five other uses of "first time ever" type phrases in GoF after Harry returns from the cemetery. Harry has entered a new and more serious phase in his life. That's what "The Beginning" refers to. Not ? ahem ? the beginning of the Love Triangle from Hell. I'm sorry, shipping is just not that important. > Also, as I can't divorce this incident from its context, I find > it significant that Hermione does this with all those people around. As opposed to five previous people who kissed Harry on the cheek, who all did it with lots of people around. It seems to be a trend. > Yes, I know she doesn't care who's around when she shows how > much she loves Harry as a friend (cough), but really after those Daily > Prophet articles and the rumors, after receiving Bubotuber pus and > threats via owl, after even Ron's own jolly mother treated her > unfairly because of those articles > > she kisses him anyway. > > Right. > > Nice way to stop rumors, Hermione. Why not a pat on the back, or > even a friendly hug? Why not a kiss? She's got Rita Skeeter in a jar in her bag. :) A pat on the back is rather a masculine expression. A hug is something that she's done before. If she wants to signal a *higher* level of concern than she's previously felt, a quiet kiss seems appropriate to me. Just like Ron ? who has never clapped Harry on the back at parting before. Just like Hagrid, who had never hugged him before (though he fell on him once in tears). Just like Molly, who kisses him and hugs him tightly for the first times ever. Things are different now ? all those who love Harry are stepping forward to support him. The idea that Hermione would let unfounded gossip stand in the way of doing her part is just silly. > Why does JKR herself call attention to it? Why does she call attention to Molly's hug? GoF Ch. 36: ***** He had no memory of ever being hugged like this, as though by a mother. ***** Something a lot more serious than shipping is going on here. Ominous foreshadowing is going on here. Team-building is going on here. > Why doesn't Hermione kiss Ron in the text? Didn't we already agree on this one? Kisses between Ron and Hermione will not be serious and ominous ? they will be funny and nervous. Totally different thing. > I have to share what JKR once said about Hermione in an interview as > I conclude. > > "Harry needs her badly." > > Indeed he does. Ron may like Hermione right now. Ron may grow to > want Hermione. > > But does Ron really need Hermione? Ebony! I thought you knew your quotes better than that. And this is your favorite one! JKR already said `YES': "She is the most brilliant of the three and *they need her*. Harry needs her badly." > What do his actions in the most recent canon installment say? What do > his actions throughout canon tell us? > > I think Ron's actions pretty much speak for themselves. Yes, they do. He's much, much more interested in Hermione than Harry is. He talks to her more, praises her more, talks about her more, worries about her more, defends her more, argues with her more, flirts with her more, is alone with her more, and is *always* jealous of rivals for her. His actions speak very clearly. > > The answer to the question "Does Hermione like Ron as more than a > friend?" is in *Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire*, according > to a spring 2001 chat with the author on AOL. The very fact that this > question had to be asked casts doubts on whether or not canon proves > that Hermione likes Ron. How can you say that? You know *who* asked it, and you know *why* she asked it! The person who asked that question had no doubt whatsoever, and was simply hoping for a confirmation clear enough to silence those stubborn holdouts who carped about "between" not being in the answer and "very platonic" meaning not shagging like bunnies *yet*. The person who answered it ? JKR -- obviously doesn't think there is any doubt. > I think I've shown that there are > numerous holes in the Hermione------> Ron proof. I don't agree, but let's say you have, for the sake of argument. You've still got a ways to go! Since JKR said *the answer is in GoF*, you need to show proof that Hermione X-X-X-X->Ron. We're still waiting for that. > So, Madam Rowling, to paraphrase your answer to a question from > another interview, do I really think that Harry and Hermione are > suited? > > My reply is an emphatic and enthusiastic "yes!" Yes indeed, very suited to be "very platonic friends." Not in the least suited to be boyfriend and girlfriend. As JKR was clearly implying in the form of her response. If you don't believe me, do a Google search for all the other times JKR says "do you really think" or "do you really, really think" in interviews. Each time, *without exception* she clearly means to imply a negative. You can search the books for her uses of this form, as well. It means `No.' Angua From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Wed Jan 22 07:55:35 2003 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 23:55:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cho Message-ID: <20030122075535.512.qmail@web40310.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50282 I just wanted to weigh-in on the Cho discussion, since my silly theory, CONNIVING CHICK'S REVENGE, was referred to in one of Petra Pan's posts. Thanks for making us *all* think, Petra! Just for the record, it was my first attempt at a "bangy" theory, without realizing what "banging" really is (I still don't understand it...oh well). I just thought it would really be tricky of JKR to have Cho turn evil...she is one you would never guess in a million years to turn to the dark side. I'll admit, it's not a very good theory, with absolutely _no_ canon support, but hey...the acronym made up by Nicole was absolutely brilliant , and Gail made up a fun filk about it. But I agree, there's really no good reason for it (other than my own amusement). My Original post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/43101 Nicole's Acronym http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/43242 Gail's FILK http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/43819 AND I'll admit it...I didn't like Cho *the character* too much when I first read the books, and I couldn't figure out why. In fact, I didn't *want* to figure out why for the longest time. I saw her as a monkey wrench for the SHIP subplots *I* thought JKR was going to write, so she was not "wanted"...by me anyway. I didn't hate her, just not a fan of hers. But she is so likable in every way that the wonderful Cho fans have mentioned in previous posts. Doesn't make any sense, does it? And then, a few months after my first foray into theorizing, I got into a lively on-list discussion with the very eloquent Jessica aka Moonstruck about Ginny, and I realized for the first time that there were people in the fandom who were not Ginny fans. Not Ginny Fans? I was thunderstruck! How could there be people who did not *like* her? I thought. First of all, we hardly know anything about her. Second of all, she's a Weasley...automatic coolness in my book. Third, what's all this talk about "star-struck" and "hero-worship"? I thought everyone would be impressed by how she's not sticking her elbow in the butterdish anymore! She was *maturing*...how could anyone not see that? I also found out that there is a "Ginny is Evil" Yahoo Group, and if you thought I was thunderstruck before, this bit of info made me faint dead away (okay...I'm being very melodramatic here...I was only out for 15 seconds...). I have not done a great job of extolling Ginny's virtures here, but that is not the point of this post...the next part is my actual point! I learned some very important things from my discussion with Jessica. First off, other people had very different interpretations of these characters, and that was *okay*. We could agree to disagree. Second, our personal experiences flavored our interpretations greatly. For Jessica, she mentioned that Ginny's embarrasing behavior reminded her of herself at that age. She feels she's more like Hermione now, but it felt like going through hell to get to where she is now. I can understand and respect that. Thirdly, I was making the same *judgements* about Cho that I imagined others were making about Ginny...what a hypocrite, huh? Especially since I started the whole "Cho is Evil" thread (a very short-lived thread back then). My only consolation is that I didn't go and start up a "Cho is Evil" Yahoo-group, because then I would be the world's biggest hypocrite. [No offense intended for members of the evil Ginny or (if there is one) evil Cho yahoo groups!] I think the real reason I didn't like Cho is that I was *jealous* of her. I mean, think about it...she has it *all*...she's beautiful, smart, talented Quidditch-wise, dated a school Champion, AND to top it all off, she's nice. I was reminded of those girls in high school just like her, who you hated for no good reason (aka jealousy), so I disliked Cho for the same no-good reason. I know...how utterly shallow of me. However, this book does bring out the "teen" in you, and when reliving those teen experiences with our beloved Trio, feelings just kind of "spring-up" seemingly out of nowhere. At least it happened that way with me. It's a good thing to analyze why we feel certain ways about these characters, because we learn something about ourselves in the process. For example, I learned how not to assume that everyone feels the same way I do about certain characters AND how to not ignore the "beam" in my own eye while pointing out the "motes" in others' eyes. ~Lilac, who got her tonsils out recently and it really "sucks to be her" right now.. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sevothtarte at gmx.net Wed Jan 22 01:57:55 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 02:57:55 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] How will the Second Voldemort War be fought? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50283 Jim: >DUMBLEDORE'S EARLY STRATEGY [...] >Keep Voldemort off balance. Keep him from establishing a base of >operations. Disrupt his plans. Problem is, it's much more easier for Voldemort to keep Dumbledore off balance. Dumbledore has much more to protect - too much, in fact, he can't protect everything that Voldemort might attack. If Voldemort employs terrorist tactics - attacking the innocents and uninvolved - I don't really see how Dumbledore might stop him there. Even if he somehow managages to keep the WW somewhat safe, he can't protect all Muggles. Magic makes it that much easier to strike strong blows - apparate, cast a spell, disapparate, that's it. Dumbledore might keep track of the whereabouts and activites of the known DEs, but there are so many he doesn't know, and it takes only one wizard, or rather one spell, to make a plane crash or destroy a building filled with people. The effect will of course be a harsh psychological blow to Dumbledore and his 'army'. Some might fall into despair - what use is there in trying to protect something, only to see something else be destroyed, someone else be killed? Torsten From marie_mouse at hotmail.com Wed Jan 22 03:52:33 2003 From: marie_mouse at hotmail.com (Marie Jadewalker ) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 03:52:33 -0000 Subject: Dobby's future role (Was: How will the Second Voldemort War be fought?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50284 I appreicated and agreed with most of the analysis so far on what VWII is going to look like -- Dumbledore vs. Voldemort, but mostly behind the scenes at first. Did I dream it or did JKR actually say at one point that there's not going to be a big climax in the war this year? (Obviously, THE big climax will be in book seven, but there was A big climax in GOF.) At any rate, I loved bboy's idea: >Wouldn't it be odd, if in the final showdown, it was Dobby who >defeat Voldemort in an effort to protect Harry? The lowest of >sevants who defeats the greatest of wizards. I'd always assumed it would be Harry, with the help of Dumbledore (if he's still around) and maybe the trio, but this would be fantastic. I think it would surprise a lot of people if Harry weren't the one to get the grand defeat -- surprising in a very good way. I hope we do learn lots more about House Elves in the coming books. I support Hermione's goal of liberating them from slavery, even while I think their current position would make them an irreplacable source of information for Dumbledore et al. Of course, convincing them to *divulge* any information that's against their families would be tricky, but maybe Dobby could convince them -- or even Winky, if she could be brought around. Hermione might even end up very important in this aspect if she can figure out how to communicate with the house elves; she certainly shows more concern for them than either Harry or Ron, though not always in the best manner. Dobby said things were horrid for house elves and other "lesser" magical creatures the first time Voldemort was around, so maybe it would be possible to get some of them to spy on their less-than- honest masters. (By the way, do you think we'll ever be sorry that Dobby no longer has a foothold at Malfoy Mannor? Or is it possible that they have other house elves who he'd know and be able to convince to work for the good guys?) Dobby has shown that house elves control some pretty powerful magic, even though they're often overlooked. He can disappear from Hogwarts even though it's not possible for humans to disapparate and he was able to keep Lucius Malfoy from touching Harry once he'd been freed. So I think we can expect to see great things from house elves in general and probably Dobby specifically. It would be cool to see the wizarding response to a house elf vanquishing the Dark Lord once and for all when nobody else -- not even the boy who lived -- could do so completely. :) Thanks for letting me ramble. ~Marie From my_severus_snape at hotmail.com Wed Jan 22 07:25:22 2003 From: my_severus_snape at hotmail.com (Elysia Bailey) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 18:25:22 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Petunia as Squib Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50285 Hi, Who calls Lily muggleborn apart from Harry?? He wouldn't know for sure and is assuming. - Elysia p.s. I am relieved all my Wiggles theories have been proved correct _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From risako at nexusanime.com Wed Jan 22 07:49:48 2003 From: risako at nexusanime.com (Melissa McCarthy) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 03:49:48 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Petunia as Squib References: Message-ID: <014401c2c1ea$d70481a0$84a594d1@vaio> No: HPFGUIDX 50286 Elysia Bailey said: > But I was wondering if there is any possibility that Lily's parents aren't > muggles. Because in the first book Petunia says that her parents were proud > Lily was a witch and then in the second book it is Harry that assumes that > his grandparents were muggles. However I found no real proof of that and it > would explain why Aunt Petunia is so twisted and maybe answer more questions > as to why noone talks about Lily. Petunia isn't a squib, and Lily's parents are Muggles. In the first book, when Harry first meets Draco, he (Draco) says Muggle-born kids shouldn't be allowed to go to Hogwarts. Hagrid reassures Harry by saying, "...some o' the best [witches and wizards] I ever saw were the only ones with magic in 'em in a long line o' Muggles -- look at yer mum!" (Canadian paperback edition, p.61) Melissa From skelkins at attbi.com Wed Jan 22 08:41:26 2003 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 ) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:41:26 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Fourth Man Avery & Fourth Man Nott In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50287 Eileen wound her way through the crowds in the Royal George until she found the corner table where Elkins was sitting with her arm around Fourth Man Avery's shaking shoulders, murmering sympathetically into his ear. Not for the first time, Eileen wondered if she were witnessing an expression of philos or of eros. "I heard what happened," she said quietly, slipping herself into a seat at the table. "Are you all right there, Aves?" Avery nodded weakly. "He's okay." Elkins looked tired. "Cindy didn't actually lay a finger on him. But still. It wasn't very nice of her to go about threatening him *now,* of all times. You *know* how edgy he's been lately. Ever since the storm started up. How edgy we've all been." She shook her head. "I just don't understand this, Eileen. Why? *Why* does Cindy have it in for my Fourth Man theory? Why is she always going after Avery like this? Why?" "It's envy," said Eileen firmly. "But did you *hear* the ludicrous nonsense she came up with this time around? I mean, *Dolohov?* What the devil does *Dolohov* have to do with anything? Is Dolohov one of Snape's old friends? Does Dolohov have any connection with the Lestranges? Does Dolohov get a strangely emphasized -- yet also peculiarly anonymous -- cameo appearance in Book Four?" "I know, Elkins," sighed Eileen. "I know." "Does Dolohov have any tie-in to the main thrust of the story at *all?*" "I know." "Does Dolohov even have a reason to *exist,* other than to establish that Karkaroff wasn't the only Slavic Death Eater? I mean, that's his sole function, as far as I can tell. That, and to give Karkaroff yet another useless name to offer up to Crouch while the author is busy establishing just how venal a fellow Karkaroff himself really is. Dolohov is *filler,* for God's sake! He only escapes the GARBAGESCOW by the very skin of his teeth! And Cindy thinks *that* guy's going to turn out to be the Fourth Man? Really, what would be the *point?*" "Elkins. I *know.*" "Antonin Dolohov," repeated Elkins savagely. "Hah! If you ask me, Antonin Dolohov probably died *years* ago. A shattered wreck. Gibbering and drooling. Sprawled on the floor of his prison cell. In his own *waste.*" "Elkins, *please!*" objected Eileen, throwing a concerned glance over to Avery, who had gone as pale as death and looked very much as if he were contemplating being sick. "I...oh. Oh, hell. I'm sorry, AVes. I really am. But honestly! Dolohov? How *could* it have been Dolohov? At Karkaroff's hearing, Crouch tells Karkaroff that Dolohov was 'caught shortly after yourself,' and he doesn't say a *word* about letting Dolohov go. We've already established that Karkaroff had to have been in prison for some time before Crouch offered him release in exchange for information. So it just doesn't make sense, Eileen. How could Dolohov have managed to qualify as someone who 'talked his way out of Azkaban?'" "I believe that Cindy may have had a double pardon scenario in mind for him." "A double *pardon* scenario? And she thinks it implausible that Avery might have managed both to evade indictment right after Voldemort's fall and to get a pardon years after his later conviction?" She shook her head. "She finds that so terribly implausible, and yet she has no problem at all with a...a what? A Double-Pardoned Dolohov?" "I know, Elkins. I tried to explain that to her myself." "It's absolutely ridiculous! What's she going to do next? Finger *Travers* as the Fourth Man? And then she...she got it all *wrong,* Eileen! She tried to use the process of elimination to narrow down Fourth Man candidates, but she used the wrong starting premise! She eliminated all of the people who are *free,* rather than all of the people who are in prison. And then she seemingly forgot that Avery himself was in the graveyard! It's his one and only incontrovertble canonical appearance, and she forgot that he was even *there?*" "I know, I know." "It just didn't make a lick of sense! How am I supposed to counter objections that don't even make any *sense?* It's MC'd Neville and that blasted Egg all over again! She *always* does this to me! She does it on purpose! I just know it! It's all to upset me! She Humpty-Dumpties her Bangs, she refuses to Concede The Point, she engages in the most grotesque logical fallacies imaginable, and she...says these, these weird random nonsensical *things*..." "She's The Cinister One, Elkins. What can you do?" "She does it just to *spite* me!" cried Elkins. "I know it! She does it because she knows how much it frustrates me!" "Forget it, will you? Let me buy you a drink." "And she goes off-canon, and she does *that* just to annoy me as well! She said that Pettigrew was the one who put Crouch Sr. under the Imperius Curse, when we all know perfectly well that Voldemort was the one who did that. She's *always* saying things like that, Eileen. She does it just to bait me. And...and...and...and she...she..." Elkins took a deep breath, then blurted: "And she let *Derannimer* hold her *Big Paddle!*" And burst into tears. "Oh, dear." Eileen fumbled in her pocket for a handkerchief, but Avery offered his first. She leaned back in her seat and sighed. "So word of that finally got back to you, did it?" "How could she?" wailed Elkins. "Just...just *hand* it over to her? Just like that? How? How? How COULD she have, Eileen? How COULD she?" "How could I have *what?*" Elkins stiffened in her seat. She looked up at Cindy, then tossed her head imperiously. "I was just *wondering,*" she said coldly, rising slowly to her feet. "How you could ever have brought yourself to humiliate yourself so *badly* by raising all of those absolutely *pathetic* so-called objections to FourthMan!Avery. Really, Cindy! *I* would have been ashamed to be caught in the *Bay* uttering such errant nonsense." "Oh you would, would you?" Cindy growled. "I suppose you can offer some defense against my anti-Fourth Man canons?" "What canons would those be again?" asked Elkins, shifting her position slightly. Eileen found herself wondering if Elkins had even the slightest bit of conscious awareness of the way that she had just moved so as to place her own body directly in line between Cindy and the seated Fourth Man Avery. Then it struck her. Oh! she thought. Of course! *Storge.* "What anti-Fourth Man canons?" Elkins asked again, tense. "The fact that Voldemort never praised Avery in the graveyard?" said Cindy. "The fact that Avery begged forgiveness and grovelled so piteously?" Elkins stared at her. "*Those* are your anti-Fourth Man canons? Have you been smoking something, Cindy? Those aren't anti-Fourth Man canons. Those are *Fourth Man* canons! And one of them is also a Redeemable!Avery canon. You're arguing my position here. Didn't Eileen just explain all of this to you?" "Well, I *tried,*" said Eileen, rolling her eyes. "*And* to explain the difference between the acquittal and the pardon. She's just being difficult, if you ask me." "Well, just how gullible is Crouch Sr. supposed to be, anyway?" demanded Cindy. "And why would Crouch Sr. have let Avery off the hook the first time around? He wouldn't have liked that." "No, he really *wouldn't* have," agreed Elkins and Eileen. In perfect unison. Although in completely different tones of voice. They each blinked, then eyed the other warily. "But," they added, after a moment's pause. "He wouldn't have had a choice." Again in unison. And again in different tones of voice. There was a long strained silence. "Go on," muttered Elkins, at length. "You go." Eileen nodded at her. "The first time," she explained, "Crouch was forced to release Avery because he had nothing on him! Just like Ludo Bagman and the Lestranges." "Or," suggested Elkins. "Perhaps more like Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, Nott, and MacNair. Actually," she said, turning to Eileen. "That's the Fourth Man defense that I prefer, you know." "It is?" "Yes. I think that it works better that way. The first time around, he got off on the Imperius defense, just like all of those other DEs did and at the same time: right after Voldemort's fall. He was acquitted on the Imperius Defense along with Malfoy, Nott, Crabbe, Goyle, MacNair, and the Lestranges." "But the Fourth Man couldn't have been *acquitted,*" said Cindy. "Because Barty Jr. was caught with people who had 'talked their way out of Azkaban.'" "If Barty Jr. had been acquitted," Elkins countered. "Wouldn't you call that having 'talked his way out of Azkaban?' He pleads with his father not to send him *back* to the dementors, remember? Even though he's not yet been found guilty. People awaiting trial get held in Azkaban, it seems. It's not just the wizarding prison. It's also the wizarding jail. So acquittal on the Imperius Defense definitely counts as 'talking ones way out of Azkaban.'" "I thought that he probably got out of his first spot of trouble with the law due to lack of evidence," said Eileen. "Like Ludo Bagman. And that it was his later pardon that was based on the Imperius Defense." "Well, I guess it could be," admitted Elkins. "But I really think that it makes much more sense the other way around. The way that Fudge lumps Avery in with all of those older DEs makes me feel that he -- along with the Lestranges -- pulled the Imperius Defense right along with all of the others: immediately following after Voldemort's fall. I'm not really sure how effective that defense might have been later on, honestly. I have an idea that it was a lot easier to beg off on Imperius in the immediate aftermath of Voldemort's fall, when everyone was feeling all celebratory and forgiving. And of course, *that* would have been the incident that Fudge would have wanted to remind his listeners of -- the 13- year-past acquittal, rather than the more recent pardon -- because that one that happened on *Crouch's* watch, not on his own." "You still haven't explained to me why you think that Crouch permitted those mass acquittals," Eileen reminded her. "If he'd supposedly usurped so much of the Minister's power?" "Yeah, I know. I'm in the middle of that one. Give me another day or two on it, okay? I'm having a busy week. But getting back to the subject at hand, my feeling here is that the Fourth Man really didn't *need* the Imperius Defense to get off the hook for the Longbottom Incident. By the time of the canon, it seems to have become the common wisdom that Barty Jr. might really have been innocent. Sirius thinks so, and it isn't a notion he came by in Azkaban. He tells Harry: 'This is mostly stuff I've found out since I got out.' Sirius has been picking up his information from current opinion, I'm guessing. And maybe also from reading old newspapers. So why *is* it, do you think, that the current day 'Common Wisdom' holds so strongly to the idea that Barty Jr. really might have been innocent after all? The wizarding world doesn't generally seem inclined to question its own judicial system very much, does it? Fudge has poor Hagrid dragged off for some sort of vague protective custody in CoS, and nobody seems even to think to question it. Yet they're all questioning Barty's guilt. Why? Why, Cindy?" "Well..." "The current 'Common Wisdom' holds that Barty Jr. was likely innocent," Elkins told her firmly. "Because at least one of Barty Jr's co-defendents *was* later determined to be innocent. Exonerated of all charges. Pardoned. Released from prison. Fourth Man. Fourth Man Avery." Cindy shook her head. "No, see, that's a real problem," she said. "It doesn't add up. This has always bothered me about Avery as Fourth Man. I mean, if he talked his way out of Azkaban once claiming he was under the Imperius Curse and then attacked the Longbottoms, how on earth can he claim he acted under Imperius a second time?" "He *didn't!*" Elkins repeated, with more than a touch of exasperation. "He didn't claim Imperius a second time! He didn't *need* to! There was no real evidence against the Pensieve Four, remember? That's why both Sirius and Dumbledore thought it possible that Barty Jr. have been innocent. The trial of the Pensieve Four was a kangaroo court. There *was* no evidence to speak of against those defendents. Fourth Man wasn't exonerated for the torture of the Longbottoms because he was believed to have been acting under the Imperius Curse. He was exonerated because he was believed not to have acted at all. He was exonerated on the grounds of having been completely innocent of the charges against him. There had probably never been any real evidence against him in the first place, other than his relationship with the Lestranges." "So you're saying that Avery wormed his way out of trouble not just once but *twice* in the space of a few months?" demanded Cindy. "A few months?" Elkins stared at her. "Where on earth are you getting 'a few months' from? For all I know, he could have been in prison for five *years* before he was pardoned. It *certainly* wasn't a matter of a 'few months,' because that wouldn't fit in with what we know of the timeline. It had to have been well over a year between these two events at the very least. Crouch Jr. was in prison for a year before he supposedly died, and Crouch Sr. didn't get shunted out of office until some time after that. We don't really need to embark on yet another 'Fall of Voldemort Timeline' thread, do we? Or do we? Actually," Elkins added thoughtfully. "I'd be game for that. Maybe tomorrow..." She shook her head quickly. "Anyway," she continued. "Fourth Man only 'wormed his way out of trouble' *once* by using the Imperius defense. He was then arrested for the assault on the Longbottoms, convicted, and sent to prison on the basis of pretty much nothing at all. Some years later, after Crouch Sr. had fallen from power and been replaced, and after the mood of the public had turned, and after people had started to realize at last just how shoddy Crouch Sr's judicial methods had been..." "Hold on," objected Eileen. "...that's when the Longbottom case was reexamined, and he was pardoned. Probably by Fudge, but possibly by whomever succeeded Crouch as the head of the DMLE. He wasn't pardoned on the basis of the Imperius defense. He was pardoned on the basis of being innocent." "Which he actually wasn't," said Eileen. "'Shoddy judicial methods,' my foot!" "Yeah, well, Sirius Black really *was* innocent," Elkins snapped back at her. "Shoddy judicial methods is what I said, and shoddy judicial methods is what I meant. So the Pensieve Four were really guilty. Big deal. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day." "If you two are finished bickering over that tiresome Crouch fellow," interrupted Cindy irritably. "Perhaps you can tell me this. Why didn't the Lestranges get out?" "Because," Elkins sighed. "They *confessed.* More fools they." "Why would the Lestranges have confessed, but not Avery?" "Oh, who knows? Maybe the Lestranges were a lot more cynical and fatalistic. They figured that they were doomed to life imprisonment no matter what they said or did, so they might as well be Good Terrorists and claim responsibility for the attack, while Fourth Man was less resigned and held out in hopes of an acquittal. Or maybe Eileen's theory holds, and the Aurors used a UC to force a confession out of the Lestranges, but never bothered to do the same with Avery because they no longer needed to: the Lestranges had already implicated him as part of their confession, and that was all they felt they needed. Or maybe the Lestranges were loony fanatics and the Fourth Man wasn't. Who can say? It's all speculation, really. There could be any number of reasons why some of the defendents in that case might have confessed, while others continued to insist upon their innocence. Just look at young Barty, for example. He never confessed." Eileen muttered something under her breath about spoiled brats and favoritism. "Well, okay," said Cindy. "What do you make of *this,* though? The Fourth Man theory cannot be true, because Avery was not a Cruciatus specialist!" There was a very long silence. "Come again?" asked Elkins, at length. "Avery was not a Cruciatus specialist. You see, the DEs were all divided into specialties, and..." "They *are?* Says who?" "Well, Mulciber was an Imperius specialist, wasn't he? That implies that they specialized. And so far in the canon, we always only hear about DEs using one *particular* Unforgivable Curse. Dolohov and Karkaroff were torturers, so they must have been Cruciatus guys. Wormtail used the AK on Cedric Diggory. He blew up those Muggles. Oh, yeah, Wormtail is a *Killing Machine* ?- an Avada Kedavra specialist if I ever saw...what? What are you laughing about?" "Nothing," snickered Elkins. "Nothing. I'm just...no. No, sorry. Sorry. Here." She forced herself back under control. "Here, Cindy. A canon for you." Cindy blinked. "A canon? Are you serious? For my 'the DEs all specialized'theory? The one you find so very risible?" "Yeah, sure. Why not? Here it is: Krum was Karkaroff's student, and we know that Krum knew how to use the Cruciatus. He used it on Cedric in the maze, during the Third Task, while under the influence of Barty Jr's Imperius Curse. I don't think that the Imperius Curse can enable people to cast difficult and powerful spells that they haven't already learned, do you? So there you go. More evidence for Karkaroff as a Cruciatus Specialist." "Oh." Cindy blinked again. "Thank you." "You're very welcome. Never let it be said that Elkins is ungenerous with her canons. So you were saying?" "I was saying that the DEs specialized. The Slavs go in for torture, and Wormtail's a killing machine, and Barty Crouch Jr..." "Could manage all three of them," said Elkins firmly. "Only on *spiders.* Not on people. Anyone can curse a lousy *spider,* Elkins! But the only curse that we actually see him use on *people* is the Imperius." Elkins stared at her. "You're arguing that Barty Crouch Jr. was an Imperius specialist," she said flatly. "Yup." "If that's true, then that has got to be the most pathetic thing about him that I've heard yet. Cindy, Barty Crouch Jr. had all the Imperius resistance of a *gnat.* Neville *Longbottom* could probably have kept him under Imperius!" "So? That just means that he was an *inept* Imperius Specialist. It doesn't mean that he wasn't one. When do we ever hear about him using any other Unforgivable?" "Err....the Longbottoms?" "Besides, Cindy," objected Eileen. "Crouch Jr. KILLED his father!" "Ah." Cindy smiled. "But we don't know how exactly Crouch Jr. killed his father, do we? He only tells us that he 'killed [his] father." "You think he hit him over the head with a blunt object a few times?" asked Eileen in disbelief. "It's possible." "No," said Elkins suddenly. "It's not. It's not possible." "No? Why not?" "Because...because he just wouldn't have *done* it that way. Not like that. He just wouldn't have!" "What?" Cindy looked at her in disgust. "Whyever not?" "Because that would have been *crude,* Cindy. Brutish." "Oh. I *see.*" Cindy snorted. "That would have been a *crude* way for him to murder his poor exhausted remorseful unarmed weakened-by-fighting-the-Imperius-Curse father who had saved him from prison and preserved his life at all costs. I see. It all makes *sense* now! Because Barty Jr. would never do something so *impolite.*" "Yeah," agreed Eileen. "Barty Jr. only did things like torturing his father for Voldemort's amusement to prove his loyalty to the age's most evil Dark wizard, which of course is not in the least bit brutish or crass." "He would never have done it that way," insisted Elkins, looking as if she were about to cry. "Not like...not like that. Not with so little finesse. That would be like...it would be like telling an outright lie, when instead you could twist around the truth! It wasn't the way he did things. It would have been aesthetically displeasing to him." "Aesthetically *displeasing* to him?" "Barty Crouch Jr. did *NOT* murder his father by braining him with a blunt implement!" yelled Elkins. "Yeah, right." Cindy snorted. "Eileen?" "No, she's right," said Eileen stolidly. "Because Barty Crouch Sr. did not *die* by being bludgeoned in the head with a blunt implement." "You're daft," said Cindy. "Both of you. But okay, so maybe it wasn't a blunt implement. But--" "Cindy," Elkins interrupted her. "Even if we are willing to accept this, uh, 'The DEs all specialized in a particular UC' theory of yours as a given..." "Are you?" "No, of course not. But even if I *were,* then explain something to me here, will you? How do you know that Avery was *not* a Cruciatus specialist?" Silence. "Well, come on," said Elkins. "You said that it was a big canon. A grand objection to Fourth Man. 'Avery is not a Cruciatus specialist.' So? Why do you say that? Where's the canon?" "The canon," said Cindy. "Is that if Avery had really been a Cruciatus specialist, then he wouldn't have *screamed* so loudly in the graveyard, when Voldemort hit him with that--" "Uh-huh. And Barty Jr. was an Imperius specialist, right?" More silence. "That's rather what I thought," said Elkins coldly. She turned back to Eileen. "I don't know how he died, Eileen, but I just *know* that it wasn't by being bludgeoned over the head with a blunt object. I'm sure of it. It would be all wrong. It's... it's the way that a *thug* would do it. It's something that..." She spared a sidelong glare at Cindy. "It's something that only the sort of person who carries around *Big Paddles* would do." "Or something that someone who smashes other *people's* Big Paddles would do?" gritted Cindy. "Oh, did that nice young Derannimer *not* smash your Big Paddle, Cindy?" snarled Elkins. "Did she treat it *gently?* Did she *coddle* it?" "*Ahem.*" They both whirled around to stare at the woman standing rather shyly to one side. "Allow me to introduce myself" the woman said, pulling a rubber duckie from her bag. "I am Ginger, new to these shores, but wanting to float my tiny theory." She gestured towards the Duckie. "I call him TNT, for Third Nott Theory." "Nott?" asked Elkins, with interest. "You have a *Nott* theory?" "Yes. He has been a pet of mine for some time, and in my lurking moments, I have found your Fourth Man hovercraft to be floating in similar waters. Indeed, I almost abandoned him and requested permission to climb aboard." "You're always welcome," said Elkins numbly. "But...what's your alternative? You think that Nott could be the Fourth Man? Elkins turned to Cindy. "Now you see, Cindy?" she said. "*This* is an alternative Fourth Man theory that at least has a bit of *promise.* At least Nott has a child at Hogwarts. He has *some* tie- in to the plot. Dolohov, indeed!" She turned back to Ginger and smiled. "I've often thought myself that Nott has some promise as an alternative Fourth Man candidate," she said. "In fact--" "Oh, no." Ginger shook her head. "Not *that* Nott. His *son.* Hence 'Third Nott Theory.' You see?" "Err..." "Look," said Ginger reasonably. "Nott in the graveyard was described as 'stooped.' That usually implies elderly, so he would not likely be the Nott in Harry's grade's father." "So, you're proposing that the Nott in the graveyard is actually the Nott kid's...what? Grandfather? Grandfather Nott? And his son was the Fourth Man?" Ginger nodded. "The Nott in the graveyard, when his master passed him, he said 'My Lord, I prostrate myself before you...' which made me think he talks like a lawyer..." "Oh, absolutely!" Agreed Elkins cheerfully. "I *quite* agree. Don't you, Cindy? Go on, Ginger." "And so TNT was formed," Ginger announced. "One of the four in the Longbottom trial is describes as 'a thickset man who stared blankly up at Crouch'. Suppose this fourth man was the son of the one in the graveyard. His father may have told him to stare blankly, realizing that the trial of the four together was a loss, and hoping to free him later with his flowery words, either begging Imperious, or shock at being accused of such a crime. Crouch Sr. was moved aside into his current department, and the father approached Crouch's successor and won his case. This man would have sat in Azkaban waiting for his release, been of a weak constitution, and died an unremarkable death, thus being neither eulogized as 'dead in the service', mentioned with the Lestranges, or expected to show up." Elkins nodded slowly. "You know," she said. "I really like this one? I like it a lot. You've managed to produce a 'dead Fourth Man' scenario that still satisfactorily explains why the Fourth Man doesn't get praised in the graveyard. He doesn't get praised because he *is* disgraced...but he's also dead. That's very nice indeed, and it also explains why elder Nott is so squirrely in the graveyard. I've always loved Nott and Voldemort's little exchange in the graveyard scene, you know. It's my favorite bit of black humour in the entire series. It cracks me up each and every time, it does." "It does?" Eileen frowned. "Why?" "You know, I have no idea? It strikes me as hysterically funny, yet I've never quite been able to articulate the reasons why." "But how can a dead Fourth Man Bang?" asked Cindy. "What if the fact that Nott is in Harry's grade is not the significant part?" demanded Ginger. "What if what is significant is that this Nott is in *Neville's* grade?" There was a short silence. "Go on," said Elkins. "Neville was sorted shortly before Nott, and being greeted by his new house, would not have paid any attention until Parvati was sorted, joining him at the Griffindor table. We have oft wondered why Gryffs and Ravens have no classes together. We have also wondered why Nott has been silent." "So you're proposing that young Nott's narrative function might be for his or her existence to come as a nasty shock for Neville, then?" asked Elkins. "That makes sense. After all, surely *Neville* knows the names of all of his parents' torturers. Even if we don't know for sure who that Fourth Man was, Neville probably does. And he *is* an inattentive sort, isn't he? You think that perhaps he's not yet realized that he's at school with the child of one of his parents' victimizers? That maybe he'll learn this in Book Five?" Ginger nodded. "You know, this actually works!" Elkins exclaimed. She beamed at Ginger. "Ginger," she said. "Ginger, do you know what you've *done* here? You've actually succeeded in getting around the big problem with all of the other alternative Fourth Man theories! See, the problem with most non-Avery Fourth Man theories is that they hardly ever have anything to do with *Neville.* And that makes them all pretty implausible, because if the Fourth Man is ever going to be reintroduced in the canon, then he'll *have* to relate to Neville in some way. There would be no point, otherwise. It's one of the reasons that I think that Avery fits the bill so well, in fact -- because Avery is an old school friend of Snape's, and Snape and Neville's plotlines are so obviously intertwined. Snape and Neville have unfinished narrative business with each other, just like Neville and his parents' torturers have unfinished business with each other, and just like Snape and his surviving school chums have unfinished business with each other. I firmly believe that those plot threads *will* be tied together in future canon. The Lestranges will almost certainly be involved in that. The Fourth Man might be, and if so, then it's very tempting to assume that he's going to be Avery, precisely because Avery *does* share the Lestranges' relationship to Snape. Most of the other Fourth Man candidates people have suggested don't have that advantage. "But yours does, doesn't it? You've just tied it together by suggesting a relationship between Neville and the yet unknown youngest Nott, rather than tying it in with Snape." "I am still speculating on the youngest Nott," Ginger admitted. "Innocent bystander keeping a low profile? (Silent Nott, Holy Nott) Perhaps a girl with whom Neville may come into contact in a pre-OWL study course?" "But what about Ginny/Neville?" objected Eileen suddenly. "I don't like Ginny/Neville," Elkins said flatly. "I like Ginny, and I like Neville. But together? Oh, that just makes my teeth hurt, that does. But you know, Ginger, I've often wondered about young Nott as well? You see, I really am desperately hoping that somewhere in this series we're going to see a child of a Death Eater who *isn't* just yet another chip off the old block. Young Nott could fit that bill quite nicely. And it would be even better if young Nott's father turned out to have been one of the Longbottoms' torturers, wouldn't it? Because, I mean, it just doesn't *get* any more villainous and evil and wicked than that, does it?" "From your mouth to God's ears," murmured Eileen. "Oh, Yellow Flag!" objected Cindy. "We haven't even seen this Nott kid in the canon yet. We don't even know if young Nott is a girl or a boy!" "We hadn't heard of Cho or Cedric either, until PoA," Elkins pointed out. "Yet they both wound up rather important, right? And besides, NiceKidRavenclaw!Nott-New-Friend-Of-Neville does have Bang potential, Cindy. You have to admit it. You know," she concluded. "This is the first non-Avery Fourth Man theory that has ever worked for me? I still think that Avery has a better claim to the position, personally. I'm not prepared to abandon the hovercraft. But I do concede that Dead Fourth Man Third Nott has a lot going for him." "I have wanted to float my duckie since my arrival," Ginger said. "But I wanted to know if it is seaworthy, and I ask you, if you please, to point out any holes in its rubber." Cindy snickered. "Well, I don't see any," said Elkins. "It looks water-tight to me. But I'm sure that someone will think of something. They always do, you know," she sighed. "Even when their objections make no sense. They still always do." ************ Elkins ****************** Hypothetic Alley: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/hypotheticalley.html Inish Alley: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database? method=reportRows&tbl=13 From pen at pensnest.co.uk Wed Jan 22 09:12:57 2003 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:12:57 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: The Yule Brawl--The Problem With Reading R/H in GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50288 On Wednesday, Jan 22, 2003, at 01:55 Europe/London, anguaorc wrote: > This is a response to Ebony's post #50156 entitled "All Smoke > and No > Fire: The Trouble With R/H in GoF and Beyond." *applause!* I won't quote it all because I'd just be applying "Me Too" to everything. But?well done. Pen From eloiseherisson at aol.com Wed Jan 22 11:05:48 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 06:05:48 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Petunia as Squib Message-ID: <1d8.7b0070.2b5fd50c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50289 In a message dated 22/01/2003 01:07:28 GMT Standard Time, christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com writes: > What i think happened was that Lily was oldest and she shared all her tales > of the WW with Petunia, who looked forward desperatly to the time that she > could join it and then, on the day she expected the letter, got nothing. > There would have been a period of denial, followed by hatred of what she > wanted so much,and then outright hatred of lily, the 'favored one'. > > I don't think that Petunia is a squib because she takes no part in the WW > at all, I think you may well have something here. I don't know which of the sisters was the eldest and in a way, it doesn't really matter, although I have a predjudice towards Petunia being the eldest; if we follow the Lexicon time line, Lily was only 20 when Harry was born. But, as you say, if Lily were the eldest, her parents proud of her witch-hood, Petunia desperately waiting and hoping and then - nothing - well, you know I would have found it pretty hard to bear, too. And Petunia's obsessional hatred of everything to do with the WW could so easily be fired by jealousy, by feelings of inadequacy. Similarly if Petunia were the eldest......well, it's not exactly unusual for girls to be jealous of their younger siblings, is it? Especially if that younger sister is pretty and has a talent of which which their parents are particularly proud. The outcome in terms of jealousy and a desire to remove oneself as far as possible form all association, the demonisation of the talent and the sibling having it are all too understandable. Particularly if the jealous one already has a spiteful personality. But I agree with you that Petunia cannot be a Squib, by definition, since, as I understand it, a Squib is the non-magical child of Wizarding parents. On which subject, Elysia asks: >Who calls Lily muggleborn apart from Harry?? He wouldn't know for sure and >is assuming. PS/SS, p61 (UK PB) Hagrid: "some o' the best I saw were the only ones with magic in 'em in a long line o' Muggles - Look at yer mum!" ~Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From skelkins at attbi.com Wed Jan 22 11:20:28 2003 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 ) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:20:28 -0000 Subject: Imperio'd Neville longbottom In-Reply-To: <20030120165808.72705.qmail@web14510.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50290 Galadriel wrote: > At the recommendation from another site, I re read CH 14 > of GoF to investigate a little more into Neville's role in > the series. It does seem to me that Moody/Crouch DID have > the opportunity to not only give Neville the book about the > gillyweed, but to also place Neville under the Imperius Curse > while in his office. I've seen this speculation before, but I've always found it a little bit difficult to understand, myself, primarily because I just can't imagine what on earth Crouch/Moody's *motivation* would have been in placing Neville under the Imperius Curse. Seriously. What would have been his purpose in doing this thing? It would have been taking a very big risk, to be sure. If anyone had found out, it would have compromised his cover and jeapordized his main mission at Hogwarts: to make sure that Harry got transported to that graveyard for Voldemort's rebirthing ritual. For me to believe that Crouch would have risked his cover in this fashion, I feel that I need to see some *very* compelling reason for him to have wanted or needed to be able to control Neville Longbottom in such a fashion. And I just can't think of one. The only reason that I can possibly imagine that Crouch would have wanted an Imperio'd Neville would be so that he could have control over someone very close to Harry Potter. But if this were the case, then why *Neville,* of all people? Wouldn't Ron have made a much better choice? Also, if Crouch had Neville under the Imperius Curse, then why wouldn't he have used that control to make sure that Harry learned about the gillyweed from Neville, as per the original plan, rather than having to fall back on Dobby's indiscretion? Surely once he realized that Harry did not, in fact, seem likely to ask Neville for help with the Second Task, then he would have used his control over Neville to *force* the information on Harry? Caused Neville to make some passing comment about the uses of gillyweed in Harry's hearing some day in the common room? That's certainly what I would have done, at any rate, if I had been in Crouch Jr's position, and if I had been controlling Neville with the Imperius. I don't think that Neville got Imperio'd during that little tea session with Fake!Moody. I do dearly wish that we knew what *did* transpire, though. I confess to an unwholesome curiousity about that particular meeting. If I could choose one "off-screen" scene in all of canon to have witnessed as a fly on the wall, that particular scene would almost certainly be the one that I would pick. > If you recall, Neville behaved strangely after that meeting. Neville was behaving strangely before that meeting. His odd spat of aphasia, so suggestively reminiscent of the Memory Charmed Mr. Roberts from the QWC, takes place *before* he is ushered off to Fake!Moody's office. It would seem to have been that demonstration of the Cruciatus Curse that set him off, not whatever transpired during Tea With Fake!Moody. When Harry runs into Neville again in the dormitories, after his Tea With Fake!Moody, on the other hand, Harry thinks that Neville seems to be behaving *more* normally than he was before. He does, however, also note that Neville's eyes are red: Neville would seem to have been crying. And, of course, he also did not sleep that night. Personally, all that I think really happened to Neville there in Fake!Moody's office was that he had a nice long chat about his poor mad Auror father, whom Moody would surely have known personally. As, of course, would Barty Crouch Jr. Although in a somewhat different context. If you accept the idea that Neville may be operating under some form of memory charm, however, then other possibilities for what might have transpired do start suggesting themselves. If Crouch/Moody had reason either to suspect or to knew that Neville was in possession of some information about the night of the assault on his parents, then he might have taken the opportunity to do any number of things: he might have tried to determine just what Neville knew or remembered; he might have cast a memory charm "reinforcement" on the poor lad; he might have tried to evaluate the nature of any mental magics under which Neville was already laboring. The Imperius Curse, though? I just can't see that somehow. What would have been its *purpose?* Star Opal asked: > BUT as far Imperius goes, well I have a question: Does a > curse continue to function after the caster is dead or > incapacitated? He's been soul sucked - which is worse than > dead, just a shell. I don't think that the Imperius Curse survives the death -- or the soul-death, for that matter -- of its caster. When Voldemort was disincorporated, his Imperius victims are said to have snapped out of it -- like coming out of trances. Even if one believes that all of those people were faking it, I still think that this implies that the Imperius Curse is known not to survive the death of its caster. I can't imagine that it would be any more likely to survive the soul-death of its caster. So if Crouch Jr. really did ever put any Hogwarts students under the Imperius Curse, I'd say that they would have been freed when he got the Kiss. Alex wrote: > I have often wondered if Neville was tortured too? Why is > he so bad with magic? Did he witness his parents being > tortured? Is he scarred and that is why he can not do > magic well? Did they put some kind of memory curse on > him dimming his mind so he would not remember something? Many people have speculated here in the past about the possibility that Neville might have been tortured along with his parents, or that he might have witnessed his parents' torture that night, or that he might have been placed under a memory charm. Or sometimes, all of the above. ;-) For this past spring's spate of memory charm speculations, you might try the threads linked to in the HA entry on Memory Charmed Neville: http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hypotheticalley.html#memorycharm Elkins From elfundeb at comcast.net Wed Jan 22 14:14:07 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:14:07 -0500 Subject: TBAY: Return of Parallel Universe Fourth Man Message-ID: <001e01c2c220$86e51fa0$723b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 50291 After a long absence, Debbie deftly maneuvers her shiny hovercraft through the narrow entrance to Theory Bay and, throttling back, slowly makes her way through the crowded waters. Things have changed greatly these last six months. The Bay is more crowded than ever, with ships of all kinds at anchor everywhere. At one edge of the Bay, the good ships R/H and H/H are engaged in a pitched battle; elsewhere, the crews are busy preparing for the great storm that's been announced. Debbie parks the hovercraft and moors it at the dock nearest George's Tavern, and, thinking refreshment is in order, heads over to the tavern. Opening the oak doors, she spies a small knot of people clustered by the bar, talking excitedly. They look up as the oak door slams. It's Cindy, Elkins, Eileen and someone Debbie doesn't recognize. "Hi all," Debbie said softly. 'I'm back." "Debbie!" cried Cindy. "We thought you'd left us forever!" "I've been on a mission," replied Debbie, her eyes glittering. "George, I'll have what they're having, please. I didn't mean to disturb your conversation." "I've been proposing a dramatic renovation to the Fourth Man Hovercraft. The Dolohov," Cindy said brightly. "Ha!" snapped Elkins, "Renovate? She wants to completely rebuild it! Replacing Avery with Dolohov. Avery is the main structural support of the hovercraft; take out Avery, and you might as well just buy a new hovercraft!" "Want to try out the new Dolohov hovercraft when we get it done?" asked Cindy? "I can't. I have my own hovercraft already. Much more flexible and maneuverable. It's got room for all manner of Fourth Man theories." Debbie points out the window. The others peer outside. The words "Parallel Universe Fourth Man" are clearly visible on the side of the hovercraft. "Using your hovercraft *would* save a pile on renovation costs," mused Cindy. "But, Cindy, I have a real problem with this Dolohov theory. I just can't believe that Dolohov talked his way out of Azkaban." "Why not?" "Let's take a look at Karkaroff's little appearance before Crouch's grand jury. Karkaroff names a lot of names, but only one that is new. And what did Rookwood do? He collected information. Very exciting. "Now if you were Crouch, and you had a public shaken and devastated by a mass terrorism campaign, where, according to Sirius, 'every week, news comes of more deaths, more disappearances, more torturing', a public clamoring to put all the DEs in Azkaban for life, would you let Karkaroff out just because he fingered someone who 'collected information'? Karkaroff had to have done more than that. Yes, I know that Rookwood's name led to others. It led to other information-passers. Oh, that's a Bangy crime! It led to people like Bagman. And we know what happened when Crouch tried to get him convicted." "Sirius knows that Karkaroff was a DE that got off by naming names, and put a load of people into Azkaban. Yet no one knows Snape was a DE. So we surmise that the little interrogation Harry saw in the Pensieve was a secret proceeding. Right?" Everyone nods. "But Karkaroff must have repeated these names somewhere more public. Like at a trial. I submit that Karkaroff didn't go free *just* for Rookwood's name. He's got much more value than that. He can provide *evidence*! Look what he says about Dolohov? 'I -- I saw him torture countless Muggles and -- and non-supporters of the Dark Lord.' See -- Karkaroff *saw* him! This is not hearsay. That's evidence that would be admissible in any courtroom. It's much more direct than what he said about Rookwood. You don't think Crouch Sr. missed an opportunity to use evidence that would put Dolohov away?" Cindy grabs the tattered copy of GoF. "Wait a minute. The first thing Karkaroff tells Crouch Sr. is that the names he is going to give are 'people I saw with my own eyes doing his bidding.'" "That might have been true of the names he gives at first. But he's getting desperate by this point. And when Crouch presses him, what does he say? He says, 'I believe he used a network of well-placed wizards, both inside and outside the Ministry, to collect information.' He doesn't *know* this. He only *believes* it! It's nothing but hearsay. Karkaroff was of limited use in constructing a case against Rookwood, or the rest of that network. He doesn't know anything about those people. *Karkaroff* didn't put those people in Azkaban; Sirius' statements to Harry just before the First Task strongly suggest that the people he put in Azkaban were the people whose names he named. But other than Rookwood, all the names he gave were people who were dead or in custody. So he must've helped convict those that were in custody. Particularly Dolohov. Why, Crouch must've used Karkaroff -- the only possible reason for not using him is if Dolohov had already been convicted by then. And somehow, given how Crouch looks so 'fit and alert' Karkaroff must have squealed very early on in the process." Cindy interrupts. "He might have been acquitted, like Bagman." "Bagman was a special case. He was a sports hero. He's friendly, charismatic. He wasn't accused of torture or killing. Dolohov had none of those things in his favor. In fact, with his foreign name, he probably had less sympathy with the jury than just about anyone who was put on trial. And with eyewitness testimony? He was certainly not acquitted *before* Karkaroff spoke up, because Crouch makes clear that Dolohov is in custody at that time. No, I believe Dolohov was rotting in Azkaban already when the Longbottoms were tortured." "But Dolohov was the Cruciatus specialist! He had to be the one who tortured the Longbottoms!" "Being a specialist could mean nothing more than that was his modus operandi. When he was sent on a mission, he liked to torture his victims with Cruciatus. That doesn't mean he didn't know how to kill them. Look at Snape. I suspect he was the potions specialist. Or maybe just the Veritaserum specialist. But that doesn't mean he doesn't know how to use the Unforgivables. How many among us believe he didn't brew Veritaserum for Voldemort? I thought so. Now, how many among us believe Snape didn't go out on any of those DE adventures, and use an Unforgivable or two himself?" George, Cindy, Elkins, Eileen and Ginger all shake their heads. "See?" continued Debbie. "If George agrees with us . . . ." "Your canon doesn't *prove* that it couldn't have been Dolohov," interrupts Cindy. "And neither does yours prove that it was. But look. You're welcome to join me on the parallel universe hovercraft, and the rest of you, too. Save those renovation costs. You see, on alternate days (excluding Sunday) Avery is Fourth Man, in homage to the creator of Fourth Man. Elkins pipes up, "But Ginger here has an equally appealing theory, the Third Nott Theory. She's succeeded in getting around the big problem with most non-Avery Fourth Man theories -- she's just tied it together by suggesting a relationship between Neville and the yet unknown youngest Nott." "OK. Monday, Wednesday and Friday can be Avery/Nott day. But on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays, all bets are off. Free reign is given to all manner of speculation. Nobody is safe. Dolohov. Mr. Bulstrode. Nott -- that's a seven-day-a-week theory. Even Molly's cousin the accountant. (There must be some reason they don't talk about him.) "And with Hurricane Jo coming, this is a good place to be. This craft can withstand *anything*. At least on Saturdays. And June 21 is, IIRC, on a Saturday? So, please, come on over -- the gangplank's open. George, can you supply us with some refreshments?" Debbie The parallel universe Fourth Man was more or less simultaneously proposed by Eloise and myself in messages 38425 and 38427 to deal with Avery's double jeopardy problem [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pennylin at swbell.net Wed Jan 22 14:55:38 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:55:38 -0600 Subject: SHIP: That Darned Kiss--The Problem With Reading R/H in GoF References: Message-ID: <013d01c2c226$539a6b90$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 50292 Hi -- Ebony said, with reference to the first Skeeter article which said Harry and Hermione were a couple: > Just "ignore it" is her only suggestion for Harry. not > vehement protest of the kind she showed at the Yule Ball, or the amusement > she's expressing at this point. Hermione doesn't even seem > incredulous when faced with that first article. She doesn't get > angry as she did when Ron accused her of being disloyal to Harry at > the Yule Ball. Instead after that first autumn article she just > holds her head high and keeps right on hanging with Harry. and > her grace under pressure is something that he admires. Angua responded with: <<<>>>>> That is a good point, actually. OTOH, as you point out, she knows it isn't true and that Harry doesn't want it to be true, so I can see where her behavior is *also* consistent with her having a secret crush on him but knowing that it's her little secret. The Potions Class discussion of the 2nd Skeeter Article, Angua says: <<<>>>>>>> Well, *of course* she's "determinedly avoiding Ron's eyes." She *KNOWS* he likes her. That became crystal-clear to us all on the night of the Yule Ball. Whether she returns his feelings or whether she doesn't return his feelings but cares about him as a friend, this is exactly as I would expect her to react. We can read this one either way, IMHO. She's either avoiding his eye because she does return his feelings as you say ....... or, as I would say, she's avoiding his eye because she knows how he feels and knows that discussing this subject is likely to be a problem for him. <<<>>>>>>> Again, that's because now she is all too well aware of exactly how he feels. Whether she suspected it before the Yule Ball or not, she can be in little doubt afterwards. Even Clueless!Harry understands that Ron likes Hermione. I do have a question for Angua and other R/H'ers at this juncture actually. JKR has made it "hit-you-over-the-head-with-a-baseball-bat" obvious that Ron likes Hermione. Again, even Clueless!Harry understands this. If she was definitely going for R/H, why hasn't she taken the same approach with Hermione? Might it be because it's not going to be an easy road to end up R/H? If it was obvious that they both liked each other, there'd be no tension or conflict, yes? So, there will be some tension or conflict in this before it all gets resolved. Pippin said as much yesterday (and I agree with her that we'll likely have no better handle on the Trio's feelings for each other at the conclusion of OoP than we do now, btw). The question is: is the "tension" source going to be Krum, Harry, both, someone else entirely ....... or just Ron and Hermione being typical teenagers and unable to get their act together? Is it even going to necessarily end up R/H? Just because he likes her, doesn't mean he will be successful at winning her heart, and just because Ron and Hermione might date for some period of time doesn't mean that they will end up together, happily ever after for all time. That's the other thing I don't get about the R/H position. JKR had an unhappy marriage with lots of "sparks" and arguments and tension. It ended badly. I'm not so sure that "tension and sparks" is really her cup of tea. But, more importantly, since she's said that she wants to realistically depict these kids and their confrontation with "real" evil (not sugar-coated) and have them age believably, do you really think she'd want to send a message that teenage romance works out to be happily ever-after? In real life, it just doesn't. And, back to that JKR chat where it was asked if Hermione liked Ron as more than a friend. If it's so *obvious,* why did JKR phrase her answer that way? When it's obvious and/or has no implications for a later plot, JKR answers chat questions with straight-forward answers ("In Gryffindor, naturally!" as one example when asked about Hagrid's house ... and Lily's house). She's cagey, or answers a question with a question, or gives vague answers when she doesn't want to answer the question for some reason. If we're going to open OoP and see Ron and Hermione have been dating all summer, why didn't she just say so? She had the perfect opportunity after all. In her post, Angua later says: <<<<Ron. We're still waiting for that.>>>>>>> No, we needn't show a negative .... we don't have to show that Hermione *doesn't* like Ron. We could also show that she likes someone else (say Krum .....or Harry) and prove by implication that she doesn't like Ron. Or that he's not the only one she likes. But, in any case, I maintain if it was obvious, JKR would have answered it that way. If it's not obvious, there's a reason. Whether that reason is a long and tortured path to R/H or because of FITD or because Ron/Herm will date but it won't last, well, we'll just have to wait for the remaining books (or for a more clear chat response from JKR, though I sincerely doubt she's going to give it if she hasn't already). Back to all these blushes, Angua plowed on: <<<<>>> How do you know? You weren't there. Neither was I. Neither was Harry. :--) <<<<>>>>>>>>> Again, she *knows* Ron likes her! <<<< And does she really think that avoiding his eye will help? The normal, usual reason that you avoid someone's eye is that you don't want them to read *your* expression. What is Hermione trying to hide, huh? I think *I* know.>>>>>>>>> Actually, you might avoid a friend's eye if you knew he had romantic feelings for you, whether you return those feelings or not. If she *does* return his feelings, then your analysis is fine. If she doesn't, she could just as easily be avoiding his eye because it makes her uncomfortable knowing how he feels and knowing that *eventually* she'll have to let him down. <<<>>>>> Snape is Teacher!Snape who sees all 3 of them engrossed in conversation that does not involve potions. Naturally, he'd separate all of them. <<<>>>>>>>>> They act strangely formal with each other actually. Ron probably laid awake, regretting how he'd made her cry, and started to sort through his feelings. Hermione, OTOH, either does return Ron's feelings, hence the awkwardness, OR, just as plausibly, doesnt' return them but knows now for sure how he feels and knows that eventually the situation will have to be addressed. <<<<>>>>>>>> Ron was there when Hermione woke up? Is that canon? I think not. <<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>> Looks like black and white text to me too. But, of course, what I see in that text is two teenage friends having a nice time together. It may or may not be a precursor to romance. Some of your shipmates have asserted that anytime Harry is not with them, Ron and Hermione are obviously off together and obviously off together having loads of fun and forming the basis for their destined romance. Yet, these same shipmates also assert that Hermione is obviously off making strong ties with her future sister-in-law, Ginny, and that even though we don't see Ginny much, clearly she and Hermione are close buddies. Hermione only had a time-turner for one of the 4 books, guys. :--) Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 22 14:08:35 2003 From: gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com (gingersnape1966 ) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:08:35 -0000 Subject: McGonagall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50293 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mitchbailey82 " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rsteph1981 " > wrote: > > Why, oh why, did Dumbledore send her away before Sirius transformed > > and Severus was given his assignment? Is she trustworthy? Is she > > skilled enough to be of use (okay, we all know the answer to that > > one)? > Me: (Michelle's reply in part) > ) I wouldn't be supprised if Dumbledore had told her before > the start of the third task who/ what the dog waiting by Hagrids hut > was. Me (Ginger) This is one of those things that danced in my head as though there were something I was missing. It hit me at work last night: McGonagall *did* know that Sirius was innocent. In PoA, McGonagall reminds third year Gryffs that permission slips are to be handed in to her as she is the head of their house. That being the case, Harry would have had to hand in to her his fourth year slip, which (end of PoA) was signed by Sirius. Imagine the look on her face if she didn't know at that time! Ginger, who is having a very lovely day, thanks to this group and the wonderful people who are a part of it. From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jan 22 15:41:53 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 15:41:53 -0000 Subject: How will the Second Voldemort War be fought? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50294 Steve:"Voldemort's war will not be war fought on clearly draw battle lines; it will be a terrorist war; a war of terrorizing. For the most part, it will not be a war of soldiers against soldiers. It will be random and brutal raids on the magic and muggle civilian population." Not early on; and I think we should limit ourselves to the first phases of the War, since we can't predict further ahead than that. The War will not be a terrorist war of the kind we've seen in RL. How can Voldemort's goals be achieved that way? Voldemort wants the wizard world to sleep while he prepares, so he does not want a frightened population demanding action and turning to Dumbledore when they don't get action from Fudge. I agree completely that the war won't be one of soldiers v. soldiers, certainly not in the sense of battles, at least in its early stages. This will be a clandestine, underground war, the OSS versus the Sicherheitdienst. Steve:"Voldemort will start attacking his primary targets, Azkaban, Hogwarts, and the homes of Dumbledore's allies." I can go so far as to imagine Voldemort taking control of Azkaban without the Ministry knowing about it. Put the non-Dementor staff of the prison under Imperio (if they're not his agents already), have everything look normal, even to the extent of having the Lestranges in their cells if Fudge comes to visit. When the boat comes over with a new prisoner, the Dementors are there to receive him and lead him off. And nobody knows. Steve:"General comments: I have nothing to base this on but a thought, but I foresee, someone besides Dumbledore being put in charge of Hogwarts. That person will probably be Malfoy. Getting him out of there and getting Dumbledore back will be one of the main subplots." Absolutely, but not Malfoy. He will return to being a Governor, with a fair-seeming but foul underling as Headmaster. A good twist? Snape as Headmaster, who seems to be doing Malfoy's bidding as puppet Headmaster but is preserving Hogwarts for the good guys right under his nose. I still think Snape is in deep, deep trouble. In the Muggle world, there's no way he would have "gone operational." Steve:"Dumbledore is in a spot. He can't attack because there is nothing and nowhere to attack. All he can do for now is gather his forces, and react when things occur. All the accused Death Eaters are currently prominent and power citizens. Voldemort's whereabouts are unknown. Then we are faced with the fact that Voldemort is not an easy guy to kill." Dumbledore's strategy is not wrong because it's difficult. I agree he can't attack - directly - but he is a subtle cove. I have no idea how he can disrupt Voldemort's plans, but Dumbledore does have the advantage of knowing who his enemies are *and* knowing a lot about them. Steve:"The Dementors? Should Dumbledore turn the Demontor loose; drive them out of Azkaban, or should he add additional forces to Akaban to force the Dementor to stay contained, and allow his own forces to protect the prison at the same time." Excellent point. The Dementors will be a most difficult enemy. Despair is the enemy of victory. Other messages have questioned if Dementors can be destroyed; very likely they can't be. It probably is better to contain them so they can't join Voldemort. Jim Ferer, who wonders if the ghost of Stephen Ambrose will write about this someday (and footnote JKR) From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jan 22 15:58:25 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 15:58:25 -0000 Subject: Ron, Harry and the Inner Censor Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50295 A lot of recent debate seems to center on how Ron could have let himself say all those snarky things to Hermione in GoF. Shouldn't he know better? Most of us have an inner censor, after all. It's what keeps us from telling the boss to her face that she shouldn't wear puce. I guess many people can't imagine saying anything obvioiusly insulting without making a conscious decision to override that inner voice. To them, Ron sounds deliberately rude when he's talking about taking trolls to the ball and idiotic when he brings up his wild theories about how Crouch disappeared from the Hogwarts grounds. * Most of us regulate our speech this way without thinking about it. It seems instinctive, but it isn't, as anyone who's spent time with a two year-old can say. Out of the mouths of babes... But I would guess that Ron's inner censor is comparatively undeveloped. At the Burrow, among the noisy, numerous and above all outspoken Weasleys, it wasn't needed. Arthur and Molly both take back things they said, and nobody gets upset about it. The Twins sass their mother to their face, and she doesn't even react. And who pays attention to Ron anyway? It's not that Ron is disregarding that inner voice, it's that he's never been taught to listen for it. OTOH, Harry's inner censor works overtime. That's understandable, too. Among the Dursleys, he learned to plan every word as carefully as Ron plots his next set of moves in chess. But now Harry can't speak freely. Even when he's with people he trusts, he can't help keeping things back. He lies, even to Hagrid and Hermione (and Ron.) I think Hermione is the good example here. She's far more tactful than Ron, but she's far more outspoken than Harry. Still, it's likely that under stress we'll see both boys revert to their old patterns, both of which can hinder genuine communication. I think much of the Shipping debate is really about which of these patterns is worse to live with. Penny said: << JKR had an unhappy marriage with lots of "sparks" and arguments and tension. It ended badly. I'm not so sure that "tension and sparks" is really her cup of tea.>> Do tell! I thought JKR refused to talk about the problems with her first marriage. Source, please? Pippin *I have to point out, in connection with this, that Ron was unconscious when Snape shouted out his "YOU CAN'T APPARATE ..." etc. lines in PoA. Up until he asks Moody whether Crouch Disapparated, Ron has never heard this information confirmed by a teacher. As far as he knows, Hermione's information comes solely from Hogwarts, A History, as she constantly says, and she herself no longer believes everything she reads in it. From siskiou at earthlink.net Wed Jan 22 16:31:18 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:31:18 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: That Darned Kiss--The Problem With Reading R/H in GoF In-Reply-To: <013d01c2c226$539a6b90$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> References: <013d01c2c226$539a6b90$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: <114171466037.20030122083118@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 50296 Hi, Wednesday, January 22, 2003, 6:55:38 AM, Penny wrote: > Might it be because it's not > going to be an easy road to end up R/H? If it was obvious that they > both liked each other, there'd be no tension or conflict, yes? > So, > there will be some tension or conflict in this before it all gets > resolved. My opinion on this is that JKR *wants* the tension and conflict for humorous scenes in the future. She intends to keep the boy/girl stuff "not too gritty" and on the funny side, like she has, so far, and I'm sure we'll see more in the same vein over the next couple of books. I, for one, think it's going to take Ron and Hermione quite some time more to admit to themselves and others how they both feel about each other. Hermione may know, but she certainly hasn't been ready to proclaim it to the world. Maybe she is waiting for Clueless!Ron to mature a bit and catch on ;) > If we're going to open OoP and see Ron and > Hermione have been dating all summer, why didn't she just say so? She > had the perfect opportunity after all. Not in a million years! Do you really expect JKR to write it this way? I think she's going to milk this situation for a while to come, and not jump into R/H right away, only to have them break up by the end of the book. Ron is nowhere near ready for a relationship, and while Hermione is a bit more mature, I don't really think she's there, either, yet. It's one thing to go to a dance, surrounded by a bunch of people, but completely different to "get serious". The Yule Ball seemed more like a "Cinderella Dream" for Hermione. Look, I got asked to the ball by a famous older guy! I'll show them all how great I *can* look, if I want to! I felt very sorry for Krum in GoF, who seemed to take his relationship much more seriously then Hermione was ready for (which is perfectly understandable, looking at their age difference). I don't think we'll see anything hardcore concerning romance in this series at all. And if Hermione is as mature as she's seen by some, she'll hopefully let Krum know how she really feels about him. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From cantor at vgernet.net Wed Jan 22 16:29:25 2003 From: cantor at vgernet.net (cantoramy ) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:29:25 -0000 Subject: JKR's clues Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50297 I hope that this hasn't been discussed recently. I tried to do a search in the archives, but 50,000 messages are overwhelming! In re-reading the series, one is able to spot the clues that JKR plants in her story plots once one knows the ending. For example, in gof, Voldemort tells Wormtail "I will allow you to perform an essential task for me, one that many of my followers would give their right hands to perform..." (bloomsbury pb, p. 15). When Voldemort is resurected, Wormtail cuts off his right hand (p. 556). However, she also plants clues from one book to another, such as Mrs. Figg (from ps to gof). In poa, Black tells how he was able to escape Azkaban, and as he is confronting Peter, he thinks out loud about Peter's motives: "...ready to strike the moment he could be sure of allies...to deliver the *last* Potter to them." (bloomsbury pb, p. 272) Is this the clue that Harry is the one who is destined to defeat Voldemort? Is this why Harry has no other relatives except the Dursleys? In cos, Prof. Binns, in relating the legend of the chamber to the class, says "After a while, there was a serious arguement on the subject [admitting Muggle-borns to Hogwarts] between Slytherin and Gryffindor..." (bloomsbury pb, p. 114). Therefore, we know there has been tension between the two houses for a thousand years. As I believe (as do many others) that Prof. Trelawny's first prediction had to do with Harry defeating Voldemort, this tension may also apply to their descendants. Is this important, or do I have too much time on my hands? cantoramy (who can't believe it was -5 degrees in the sun at 9AM) From crussell at arkansas.net Wed Jan 22 17:17:00 2003 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37 ) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 17:17:00 -0000 Subject: SHIP: That Darned Kiss--The Problem With Reading R/H in GoF In-Reply-To: <114171466037.20030122083118@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50298 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > > She intends to keep the boy/girl stuff "not too gritty" and > on the funny side, like she has, so far, and I'm sure we'll > see more in the same vein over the next couple of books. > > I don't think we'll see anything hardcore concerning > romance in this series at all. > I just wanted to write and say I agree with the above statements. IMO, I believe the R/H ship with all its blushes and misinterpretations of others and ones own feelings is rich fodder for a rocky albeit humorous exploration of teenage angst/confusion. bugaloo37 From cmsore at wm.edu Wed Jan 22 17:02:37 2003 From: cmsore at wm.edu (blauemeanies ) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 17:02:37 -0000 Subject: SHIP: That Darned Kiss--The Problem With Reading R/H in GoF In-Reply-To: <013d01c2c226$539a6b90$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50299 Penny wrote: > That's the other thing I don't get about the R/H position. JKR had an unhappy marriage with lots of "sparks" and arguments and tension. It ended badly. I'm not so sure that "tension and sparks" is really her cup of tea. But, more importantly, since she's said that she wants to realistically depict these kids and their confrontation with "real" evil (not sugar-coated) and have them age believably, do you really think she'd want to send a message that teenage romance works out to be happily ever-after? In real life, it just doesn't. Penny, this would be a valid theory if we knew why JKRs first marriage failed, but I personally haven't seen anything anywhere positively attributing it to the sources you mentioned there. Hey, from what I have seen it could as easily be that he ignored her and she took his silence for agreement when it was really pent up annoyance and it fell apart. And I somehow doubt that there has been anyone in any chat asking her- "So, Joanne, why did your first marriage fail?" If there was, I'd personally slap them because I think it is something we have no right to know. And, the one positive relationship we see (Molly/Arthur) does have such sparks, so even if she was burned in a spark and tension filled romance it has not led her to believe such a romance is neccessarily always unsuccessful. As to the tean romance question, yes many fail but not all do. If she can show a teen romance that has a lot of the things that keep an adult romance together, then I don't think we should write it off because of their age. It does happen. Not all the time, or to everyone, but it does happen. And R/Hr have a type of intimacy that makes them more likely to sustain than many teen prom fantasy relationships. Statistically speaking, yes most fail, but statistically speaking most people aren't chased by megolomaniacal dark lords either. "blauemeanies" From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Wed Jan 22 17:58:54 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica ) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 17:58:54 -0000 Subject: SHIP: That Darned Kiss--The Problem With Reading R/H in GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50300 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bugaloo37 " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > > > > > She intends to keep the boy/girl stuff "not too gritty" and > > on the funny side, like she has, so far, and I'm sure we'll > > see more in the same vein over the next couple of books. > > > > I don't think we'll see anything hardcore concerning > > romance in this series at all. > > > > I just wanted to write and say I agree with the above statements. > IMO, I believe the R/H ship with all its blushes and > misinterpretations of others and ones own feelings is rich fodder for > a rocky albeit humorous exploration of teenage angst/confusion. > I interpreted 'nothing too gritty' in JKR's "I want [the characters] eventually to be truly 17 and discover girlfriends and boyfriends and have sexual feelings...nothing too gritty. " to mean that they'll have 'realistic' relationships but that the books wouldn't delve into the *sexual* aspect of the relationships, not, necessarily, that the relationships wouldn't be angsty. Erica From siskiou at earthlink.net Wed Jan 22 18:32:16 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 10:32:16 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: That Darned Kiss--The Problem With Reading R/H in GoF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <91178724709.20030122103216@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 50301 Hi, Wednesday, January 22, 2003, 9:58:54 AM, Erica wrote: > to mean that they'll > have 'realistic' relationships but that the books wouldn't delve into > the *sexual* aspect of the relationships, not, necessarily, that the > relationships wouldn't be angsty. Oh, I think they are plenty angsty now ;) -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From kkearney at students.miami.edu Wed Jan 22 19:05:31 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum ) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 19:05:31 -0000 Subject: Dementors - How do you defeat them? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50302 Annemehr pondered: > Dementors are supposed to suck out your soul so that it is "lost > forever". Well, as a Christian, I just can't get over something >that > can make you lose your soul apart from your own actions. The >"willing > suspension of disbelief" won't extend so far when I read this part. > I > just put getting "soul-sucked" into a cubbyhole in my mind marked > "fate worse than death" and kind of pass over it. I wonder how many > other people (of whatever faith) have this same problem with the > dementor's kiss? The best I can muster, if I stop to think about it > at all, is that the souls can be lost inside the dementor, in >torment > perhaps, until the end of time or the end of the dementor, whichever > comes first (harsh, isn't it?) -- and then it's finally on to "the > next great adventure." But in that case, of course, they would not > be > lost forever. I sure would appreciate seeing anyone else's thoughts > on this! Me: On one level, this question can't be answered. After all, wizards don't seem to know any more about the realities of the afterlife than we muggles do (well, with the exception of ghosts). I've always interpreted the "soul-sucking" from the living point of view. Having one's sould sucked seems to basically render one brain-dead. Still alive, with a fully functioning body (possibly even able to move) but unable to form any thoughts. However, the person's body will eventually die of natural causes. At this point, I think the "soul" would be released to whatever afterlife there may be. The "fate worse than death" interpretation is really just an opinion from the living person's point of view...Would you rather die now, or be rendered a senseless thing for a hundred or so years before dying? Just my thoughts. :) -Corinth From lupinesque at yahoo.com Wed Jan 22 19:28:42 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z ) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 19:28:42 -0000 Subject: Troll comment (was SHIP: The Yule Brawl) In-Reply-To: <009701c2c1cb$73fe1b30$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50303 My sister lycanthrope wrote: > *only* reason she has for thinking Ron is an insensitive prat who > deserves to have his face rubbed in his romantic failure is > that "troll" conversation from a few days before. Penny wrote: > I agree that she was very hurt by the trolls remark, but it may or may not have anything to do with personal feelings for Ron. Angua again: > <<<< already has a date. She *wanted* Ron to ask her before. Now she wants him to suffer for "rejecting" her. And, again, Hermione has no clue that Ron "thinks Neville is beneath him." > And, of course, Harry is dateless as well. Is Hermione delighted by > that karma too, or does she simply not have any attention to spare > for Harry right now?>>>>>>>>>>>>> Penny again: > Well, again, it wasn't *Harry* who made the insensitive Trolls comment. Ron also didn't even have the good sense to try & backtrack out of the mess he'd made ("Yeah ..... that sounds about right."). > > If Ron "rejected" Hermione, he did so based on appearances, didn't he? I have a slightly different take than either of you on the trolls comment and Hermione's reaction to it. Ron was being insensitive to Eloise Midgen and to girls in general. If he has any thought that Hermione might be a potential romantic partner, he's being insensitive in the extreme to her as well--*but* it seems to me that he *isn't* dismissing Hermione as a date because of her looks, but because she's his best friend. *He doesn't think of her as a girl*-- not until a few days later when the pin finally drops. As JKR says, he likes her (the first stirrings are in CS, IMO), but he doesn't know it yet. (Typical boy.) And I tend to assume that Hermione knows this. Whether or not she has any romantic urges toward Ron, she knows that the reason she doesn't register as a Yule Ball date until the pool of girls appears to have shrunk to her and his sister isn't that she isn't good-looking enough; it's that he thinks of her as being almost as ineligible as his sister. Nor do I see any reason to conclude from this interaction that Hermione wanted Ron to ask her to the ball. Maybe she did, maybe she didn't, but I'm not seeing evidence in her reaction to the trolls comment. There's another simple explanation for her angry response: Ron's being a sexist cad. This irritates many young women. In short, I don't think that Hermione is *hurt* by the trolls remark. Angry, but not hurt. So why does it make her angry? Because it's insulting to girls in general. Hasn't anyone else ever been pissed off by men's rating women on their looks, even if you aren't among the women being rated? Especially if you know you aren't considered very good-looking yourself. I find such remarks infuriating, not because anyone is directly or even indirectly saying where I go on the scale, but because I know if they put me on the scale I wouldn't come out so well. And because it's shallow and rude and stupid. As for Ron's lack of good sense in not backtracking when he has the chance, I think it's funny. I've had the same conversation with at least one man. Indignant me: "So you like her even though she's a moron, just because she has great legs?" "Um, yeah." Even though it made me want to smack him, it also made me laugh because he knew perfectly well that he was saying something indefensible. Amy Z From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Jan 22 18:37:06 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch ) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 18:37:06 -0000 Subject: McGonagall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50304 Michelle: I not so certain that she doesn't know already. After all she showed no supprised of being asked to take a dog to Dumbledores office (I don't know if he asks this of her before he send Snape to get Winky I don't have the book on me)- one has to ask why she didn't seemed supprise - I got a suspeciion that maybe she already knew what/ who the dog was. I wouldn't be supprised to find out that she knew that the dog was an animagus even if she didn't know who the animagus was - after all she is one herself, and I'm beginning to wonder if an animagus can spot another animagus in animal form more easily than an non-animagus. Me: I've been thinking about an animagus being able to spot another easily, but one thing is against it: How come she could not tell that Ron's rat was animagus during the time Wormtail was with Percy added to two with Ron? No doubts at all? Still, maybe she did _doubt_ but kept it quiet (except telling Dumbledore about an odd rat of Weasleys). Dumbledore could have told her any time between finding out the truth and Sirius being back. McGonagall would grasp the animagi part right away - "so that's how it was with the Weasley rat"... Michelle on why McGonagall isn't of the old gang: Opinions on this are split some suggest the fact that she found out about the Potters deaths and where Dumbledore was going to take Harry from Hagrid rather than Dumbledore as evidence that she was not. Theres also that pesky detail that she say you - know -wh rather than calling him Voldemort too. Me: Being unafraid to speak out Voldemort's name is, I believe, a requirement to membership in the 'old crowd', but McGonagall IS on Dumbledore's side like Snape and Hagrid. The three non-members Dumbledore trusts most so far as we know. But as to why McGonagall was 'sent away'... She knows that PP is unregistered rat-animagus - and she may have doubts about the dog's true identity. She is, however, a _registered_ animagus - and feels need to at least keep a face that she knows not about Sirius' ability, lest she'd be oblidged to report him. Still, Sirius innosence and PP's rat-animagi.. She knows that much, I think. I think McGonagall chooses to remain ignorant of Sirius' dog- animagi... otherwise she as registered animagi would, I believe, be oblidged to turn him in. BTW, wonder if any of Mrs Figg's cats are animagi, too? Or perhaps, as punishment for being unregistered cat-animagi they were transfigured into cats for say 6 years? -- Finwitch From siskiou at earthlink.net Wed Jan 22 19:40:23 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:40:23 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Troll comment (was SHIP: The Yule Brawl) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50182812629.20030122114023@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 50305 Hi, Wednesday, January 22, 2003, 11:28:42 AM, Amy wrote: > Hasn't anyone else ever > been pissed off by men's rating women on their looks, even if you > aren't among the women being rated? Especially if you know you > aren't considered very good-looking yourself. I find such remarks > infuriating, not because anyone is directly or even indirectly saying > where I go on the scale, but because I know if they put me on the > scale I wouldn't come out so well. And because it's shallow and rude > and stupid. Of course it is, but I have to admit that girls/women do the same to males. Hermione did it with Krum, in a way. Many humans are pretty shallow when it comes to judging people by their looks, and it takes most of us a while to look past the exterior and the first impressions. While I don't like it now, and didn't like having it done to me as a teenager, I have to admit, I wasn't much better about it, then. At least Harry, Ron and Hermione don't go around saying disparaging things about peoples' appearances to their faces (quite a few kids in my daughter's school have no such inhibitions), so there's hope ;) And Ron never calls Hermione herself a troll, even if she takes it this way. JKR is at lest trying to have everyone act remotely realistic and doesn't pull out the moral 2X4 to hit us over the head with. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From pennylin at swbell.net Wed Jan 22 19:46:53 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 13:46:53 -0600 Subject: JKR's marriage References: Message-ID: <01b101c2c24f$03b8e8d0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 50306 Hi -- [snip lots of stuff I agree with regarding the "inner censor" of Ron and Harry] I said: << JKR had an unhappy marriage with lots of "sparks" and arguments and tension. It ended badly. I'm not so sure that "tension and sparks" is really her cup of tea.>> Pippin asked: <<<>>>>>>> Sure, no problem! J.K. Rowling: A Biography, by Sean Smith (London, Michael O'Hara Books Ltd.: 2001). As a budding biographer myself, I'd be the first to tell you that biographies are suspect sources in many ways, particularly unauthorized biographies. This one is, however, in a *completely* different league than that horrid one by Shapiro back in 2000. Smith is a former journalist who's written several books in the past 6-7 yrs about "contemporary topics" in Britain. I don't know his reputation or how he's regarded in the UK in particular, but he seems to have done a reasonable job in tracking down sources and interviews. IIRC, when I read the book a few mths ago, I could only find a few minor quibbles with his facts (unlike Shapiro, who couldn't even figure out what year JKR was born!). Anyway..... on to his account of her marriage. He traveled to Portugal and did interview some of her friends from that time period. It does not appear that Jorge Arantes talked directly to Smith .... Smith seems to be basing some of his narrative of their meeting and early relationship on an interview that Arantes gave the Daily Express a few yrs ago. Smith says friends recall that Rowling was the jealous one early-on in the relationship but the roles reversed later, after their marriage. However, everyone seemed to be in agreement that it "was always a tempestuous relationship." She got pregnant and suffered a miscarriage sometime in the summer of 1992. Arantes proposed to her shortly after this, and they were married on Oct 16, 1992 (Smith notes with amusement that the date Rowling chose for Trelawney's prediction relating to Lavender was Oct 16th ..... "that thing you dread, it will happen on Oct 16th"). Her friend from the school where she taught English recalls one blazing argument not long before the marriage though. There was a public declaration of passion and reconciliation with this one, though it was alarming enough that someone had called the police before the couple got everything sorted out. Smith says "Only Joanne and Jorge know how many more rows of this nature occurred behind closed doors." She got pregnant again quickly, and Smith did talk to Arante's mother who confirmed that the couple argued constantly. Smith says it's not clear from interviews with Arantes whether he did or did not hit Rowling in the final public argument that was the end of their marriage, but in any case, he did forcefully throw her out of the house in Nov 1993. With the baby inside. Eventually, her friend Maria had to go to the flat the next morning and beg Jorge to give the baby to her. As a mother, this makes my skin crawl. :::shudders::::: The story doesn't stop there though. Sometime not long after she settled in Edinburgh, Jorge followed her there. She got an "Action of Interdict" (basically a restraining order) against him in March 1994. Smith says the burden of proof to make such an interdict permanent is high, but Rowling's became permanent in June 1995 (her divorce was final that same day). Now. Please don't misunderstand and think that I'm suggesting Ron would be violent or abusive to Hermione. I'm not. Not at all. I'm also not suggesting that all relationships where the couple spark from the passion created by rows end up in violence and threats. I know there are plenty of couples out there who thrive on the bickering and what-not, although frankly I don't happen to know any of them personally. All I'm saying is that Rowling had one relatioship with lots of tension, sparks and passion ..... and it did not end well at all. I've no idea what her relationship with Dr. Murray is like, but if I were a betting woman, I'd say that she might well have had her fill of tempestuous passionate relationships marked by lots of bickering and rows. Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tahewitt at yahoo.com Wed Jan 22 17:27:41 2003 From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:27:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Is this important? In-Reply-To: <1043254227.7139.66007.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030122172741.5937.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50307 cantoramy wrote: In re-reading the series, one is able to spot the clues that JKR plants in her story plots once one knows the ending. For example, in gof, Voldemort tells Wormtail "I will allow you to perform an essential task for me, one that many of my followers would give their right hands to perform..." (bloomsbury pb, p. 15). When Voldemort is resurected, Wormtail cuts off his right hand (p. 556). However, she also plants clues from one book to another, such as Mrs. Figg (from ps to gof). In poa, Black tells how he was able to escape Azkaban, and as he is confronting Peter, he thinks out loud about Peter's motives: "...ready to strike the moment he could be sure of allies...to deliver the *last* Potter to them." (bloomsbury pb, p. 272) Is this the clue that Harry is the one who is destined to defeat Voldemort? Is this why Harry has no other relatives except the Dursleys? In cos, Prof. Binns, in relating the legend of the chamber to the class, says "After a while, there was a serious arguement on the subject [admitting Muggle-borns to Hogwarts] between Slytherin and Gryffindor..." (bloomsbury pb, p. 114). Therefore, we know there has been tension between the two houses for a thousand years. As I believe (as do many others) that Prof. Trelawny's first prediction had to do with Harry defeating Voldemort, this tension may also apply to their descendants. Is this important, or do I have too much time on my hands? Me: It's important! Someone told me (or I read somewhere) that CoS has lots of clues to events that occur in books 5-7. What I heard was that they had to be careful with the screenplay, to cover important things without letting on that they WERE important (how many times can I use the word 'important in one paragraph?). I'm looking forward to rereading CoS,and will be paying close, um, attention to it! The 'right hand' quote is kind of funny! reminds me of the XTC song 'I'd Like That' ("I'd like that, If I could row your heart and head, With you laid on one arm, I'd be your Nelson...") Apperantly (I'm not up on my history here) Nelson lost an arm at one point. Tyler __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From shunique69 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 22 19:24:48 2003 From: shunique69 at yahoo.com (Rona Patterson) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:24:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Jobs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030122192448.54884.qmail@web11701.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50308 --- "melclaros " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Maria > Kirilenko > wrote: > > > > My father said recently that wizards don't have > very many > employment options - namely, they can only work in > the MoM. We, of > course, know that's not true - they can also work in > Hogwarts, in > shops, on the Knight Bus and Hogwarts Express. But > that's still very > little! > > > > So... any ideas for where else they can work *to > earn money*? Death- > eating and 'taking a year off to get some first-hand > experience at > DADA' do not count! > > > I think that there are wizards living in the Muggle world. In PoA we learned that muggles and wizards covered up the scene when Sirius (really Wormtail) went postal and killed all of those Muggles. The Muggle world also announced Sirius had escaped from prison on the News. I think that they use the Muggle-born wizards to blend in and keep an eye out for anything strange. Ps... I would argue and say that Uncle Vernon could be a wizard and this would show us that capable wizards are capiable of making it in the muggle world. Rona __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From coonkell at msu.edu Wed Jan 22 19:31:04 2003 From: coonkell at msu.edu (Kelly ) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 19:31:04 -0000 Subject: How will the Second Voldemort War be fought? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50309 I am a new member and this is my first post, so forgive me if I say anything that has been said a million times before. But these posts are very interesting, and I wanted to comment on a few things. I totally agree that it will not be a "ground war" (i.e. troops) and I am very interested to see how this begins. I agree that Voldemort's plan must be terror - to get the world to fall before him in fear and never rise against him again. A "you'll be sorry you ever were against me" mentality. I think that Azkaban will be his first target. The Dementors are such a vital role, I think, in the coming war. I cannot wait to see if or when Voldemort adds them as his supporters. It seems to me that it will be too easy to attract them to his side. As for getting someone in the "inside" at the Ministry, I am not sure if Malfoy is the answer. He just seems to obvious to place in that kind of roll....maybe one of JKR's plot twists will enter in here and someone we don't suspect will infiltrate the Ministry from the inside. Just a few notes. I'm glad to be a part of this group now and help "disect" the world of Harry Potter! -Kelly From fausts at attglobal.net Wed Jan 22 20:02:32 2003 From: fausts at attglobal.net (anguaorc ) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:02:32 -0000 Subject: SHIP: The Yule Brawl--The Problem With Reading R/H in GoF In-Reply-To: <009701c2c1cb$73fe1b30$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50310 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Penny Linsenmayer wrote: Angua: > <<<<<>>>>> Penny: > Are you saying that Ron is *baiting* Hermione deliberately here? I suspect that he was clueless and had perhaps even forgotten that she was even there. I think he *meant* that comment exactly as it sounded. Mind you, I think it's reasonably typical remarks from a 14- yr old boy ..... but I don't think he was trying to get a rise out of Hermione. Me again: Oh, no! I didn't mean to imply that Ron was doing it deliberately, not at all. 'Unintended bait,' I should have said. Though "Er -- yeah, that sounds about right" might have been said to annoy. Angua: > <<<>> Penny: > Well ...... why *would* she? She's quietly studying because she is surrounded by normalcy. When Ron makes an obviously chauvinistic, churlish remark, she reacts predictably. It would have gotten my attention too, notorious bookworm that I am. Me again: I didn't really think she would look up at Ron's talk with Fred and George. But Fred and Angelina's shouted conversation was not normal common room fare. I thought it was *very* interesting, and I would have thought Hermione might as well. Penny: > I agree with you that she may or may not already have a date with Krum. I don't see any basis other than subjective wishful thinking though for your position that she's angry because she hoped that Ron would ask her and now her hopes are deflated. It's possible that she was hoping that Ron would ask her. It's equally possible she was hoping Harry or Krum or Neville would ask her. We have no idea who she had hoped to go with. All we know is that she's righteously angry with Ron for basing his dating choices solely on appearances. Me again: I'm just saying that she responds awfully quickly and vehemently on this subject, and reacts by stalking out of the room. Usually, she can take a pretty good bit of Ron's persiflage, without storming out of the room (in fact, Hermione stomping away seems to me to be a signal for shippy R/H scenes as opposed to normal R/H bickering). I observe that she is oversensitive on this issue, and that her oversensitivity is specifically related to *Ron*. She didn't, for instance, bristle when Fred said "all the good ones will be gone," a remark that -- while not as offensive as Ron's -- is not free of chauvinism. Angua: > <<< what kind of girls HARRY might want to ask to the ball - even > though Harry is sitting right there, and Ron's "we" includes him.>>>>>> Penny: > Well, first off: she wasn't curious about who RON might want to ask to the Ball either. Ron started that entire conversation. I sincerely doubt that Hermione was about to ask Ron or Harry who they hoped to go to the Ball with. But, more importantly, it wasn't Harry who had just behaved like an insensitive clod. It's appropriate that her reaction is focused on Ron; Harry hasn't *said* anything. If Ron had made his comment and then Harry had nodded or laughed or otherwise expressed agreement and *then* Hermione had focused her anger solely on Ron, you'd have a valid point. But, you don't. Angua again: But, once Ron gave Hermione the opening, she certainly WAS curious about Ron's dating criteria. She could have *easily* given the conversation a Harry-related turn, even by something as simple as saying "So basically, you're going to take the best-looking *girls* who'll have you," rather than "best-looking *girl* who'll have you. You may argue that she understands Harry and would never think HE would be as superficial as Ron, but, elsewhere, Hermione has no trouble bracketing the two of them together, as in her "*Boys*" remark in GoF Chapter 10 or her comments on their poor studying habits and continued failure to read "Hogwarts, a History." If Hermione *had* been feeling any anxiety over whether Harry found her attractive, it would have been perfectly natural for her to associate Ron's remark about "trolls" with Harry as well. If she *had*, I think it would have been a nice little piece of evidence for the H/H side. That she didn't, isn't in any way conclusive, but it is yet another missed opportunity. Another missed opportunity occurred when Hagrid asked Harry who he was taking to the ball a few pages earlier. If Hermione had looked at Harry, or changed the subject, or done anything, really, that could have been taken as a clue. The fact that she didn't doesn't prove anything -- it's just another of the many, many places where H/H *could have been* foreshadowed, but *isn't*. > Angua: But if you take her as simply showing female solidarity, I think her "hitting Ron when he is down" is uncharacteristically cruel. It is also cruel to Harry, by the way, simply because he is in the same position as Ron. Not that she pays the slightest bit of attention to Harry in this entire scene. ;)>>>>>>>>>> Penny: > I agree that she was very hurt by the trolls remark, but it may or may not have anything to do with personal feelings for Ron. > > Ahem. You rightly point out that Hermione did not hear Ron dissing Neville. But neither did she have any real reason to see that Ron was *down* and abject from Fleur's rejection. When Hermione walks in, the boys are *laughing.* So, I disagree that Hermione was being "uncharacteristically cruel." Besides, this is the M.O. for Ron/Hr, isn't it? Being sarcastic with just enough edge to be really cutting? Angua again: You have an excellent point here. Hermione's gloating is much more forgivable considering that she only saw Ron (and Harry) laughing, and did not see either boy showing distress. And yes, Ron and Hermione do not usually pull their punches with each other. But I agree with you that Hermione was hurt, and is not just needling Ron for fun, or from feminism. She speaks "loftily" and "acidly," and "snaps." There is no lifted eyebrows or sly grin of appreciation for karma -- she is angry. I don't think she is SO insecure about her appearance, or SO militantly feminist, as to be *hurt* by Ron's remark, UNLESS she wants him to find her attractive. The contrast between her sensitivity here (when Ron wasn't even talking about her) and her nonchalance in response to truly vicious public insults about her teeth from Draco Malfoy and Pansy Parkinson is striking to me. > Angua: > <<<<< that karma too, or does she simply not have any attention to spare > for Harry right now?>>>>>>>>>>>>> Penny: > Well, again, it wasn't *Harry* who made the insensitive Trolls comment. Ron also didn't even have the good sense to try & backtrack out of the mess he'd made ("Yeah ..... that sounds about right."). Angua again: I know. But Hermione's taunts to Ron happen to also apply to Harry: "All the good-looking ones taken?" "I'm sure you'll find someone *somewhere* who'll have you." There is really no way Hermione can be mean to Ron here, without unintentionally being mean to Harry as well, which I doubt she wants to do. But she is concentrating so hard on her issues with Ron, that she doesn't seem to think of the effect on Harry. She *is* Ron-centered in this scene. Penny: > If Ron "rejected" Hermione, he did so based on appearances, didn't he? Angua again: No, but I believe that Hermione thinks so. Angua: > <<<< is bragging to Ron in a way that is likely to show him that she IS > attractive to boys, after all, and maybe (hopefully?) make him > jealous. She blushes *every* time she tells Ron about Viktor liking > her.>>>>>>>>>>> Penny: > If she blushes *every* time she talks about Viktor liking her, that might be because *Harry is there.* Angua again: Well it *could* mean that, of course, but one looks in vain for any signs, hints, or clues that it *does*. She is shown talking to Ron, looking at Ron, avoiding Ron's eyes, saying "if you *really* want to know," etc. -- all hints that it is because *Ron* is there. There are no indications that it is because *Harry* is there. None. Penny: > I know the R/H fans think there is all this wonderful bantering R/H interaction happening off-page, but there's no canon on that. Angua again: No -- we think that there is all this wonderful bantering R/H interaction happening ON-PAGE. Well, we think it probably happens off-page as well (because why wouldn't it?) but what we see right there in canon is plenty enough to stoke our engines. They banter beautifully, especially considering their young age. > Angua: <<<< recognize the true source of his anger, has really landed a vicious punch here. "You're disloyal *and* not worth dating." Ouch! What do you tell the girls you *don't* have a crush on, Ron? ;) > When Draco Malfoy > said "someone's asked *that* to the ball?" Hermione waved > to Professor Moody and laughed. She doesn't care whether Malfoy > thinks she's worth dating or not, but she sure seems to care what Ron > thinks about that subject.>>>>>>>>>>> > > Hang on. If Ron hadn't thrown a vicious double-barreled punch, would her reaction still have been the same? In other words, isn't it possible that the real source of her *hurt* is because Ron accused her of disloyalty to Harry? I think you make my case. When Draco insults her on the basis of her appearance, she laughs it off. She smirks at Pansy and Parvarti, knowing full well that they are likely thinking something similar to what Malfoy voiced. So, why can't she laugh it off with Ron? It *could* be because she has romantic feelings for him. It's equally plausible that it's because it's Harry she cares about. Angua again: Wait, that one doesn't make sense. If it's Harry she cares about, why would Ron's opinion of her appearance cause her pain? Ron's opinion of her appearance is relevant only if it is *Ron* she cares about. Unless you think that Hermione thinks that Ron will "influence" Harry, while Malfoy wouldn't? Penny: > Or, most likely, it's because Ron is her friend, and he's just accused her of being disloyal to their other best friend. Of course she's hurt. I would be too. Angua again: This is a possibility, but we can eliminate it by looking more closely at the text. The time when Hermione looked as though Ron had slapped her and her voice quivered, Ron wasn't accusing her of *disloyalty*: ***** ..."He's just trying to get closer to Harry -- get inside information on him -- or get near enough to jinx him --" ***** Ron might be said to be accusing Hermione of *gullibility* here, but not disloyalty. In this scenario, Krum is the wicked deceitful Lothario and Hermione is the innocent dupe. But the "Krum doesn't like you for yourself" implication is full-blast. Later, Ron "changed tack at the speed of light" and says Krum is hoping Hermione will help him with his egg. Hermione is "outraged" at this suggestion, and refutes it warmly, but she is not *hurt*. It was only Ron's first suggestion that Krum had an ulterior motive for dating her that caused her to betray hurt. Also, we must take into account Hermione's hurt response to Ron's "troll" comment, his "you are a girl" comment, and his charge that she lied to Neville when she had a date. In none of those cases is there any possibility that Hermione's reaction is because she has been accused of disloyalty to Harry. I think the conclusion that Hermione cares whether Ron thinks she is attractive is unmistakeable. Penny: > Yeah, I think you're exactly right about the "it," Angua. It makes no sense whatsoever for it to be anything else. But, the real divergence of opinion amongst the shippers relates to interpretation of her remark. My shipmates tend to think that she's very angry. He's again throwing this disloyalty thing in her face (so he's not even being upfront about the real reason for his anger). The "it" was not "Why did you go to the Ball with Krum .... I asked you!" It was "You were fraternizing with the enemy, going with Krum!" Her angry retort of asking her other than as a last resort becomes a little less personal in my mind under the latter scenario. She's not saying that she would accept. She's saying "Look buddy, you've no right to complain about who I go to the Ball with. You only asked me as a last resort ...... because you couldn't get someone prettier. But, if you want to change all that, don't ask me as a last resort ......and we'll see." Angua again: I can accept your interpretation of what she meant by it, and I still find it -- well -- encouraging for Ron. Whatever her motives, she is telling Ron to ask her to the next ball. Whatever her state of mind, she is letting him know that she *minded* being his last resort. This is far from a declaration of love on Hermione's part, but it is an opening offer for further negotiations. It leaves the door open. Penny: > No, the *point* is that Ron has a crush on Hermione. Hermione now knows this. Whether she reciprocates that feeling is not clear. This is December. If she *knows* he has a crush on her *and* she reciprocates it, why doesn't she stop spending time with Krum and focus on trying to get Ron to grow up and face his feelings? She goes from at least January - June (6 mths), knowing full well that her love interest likes her back ...... and she does nothing to encourage him to get a move on? :::remembers being 14/15 and is confused by this scenario:::::::::: Angua again: She knows that Ron has a crush on her, yes. But she has not gotten him to admit it, even to himself. PLUS, he called her a troll, said Viktor only liked her because she was a friend of Harry, said she lied to Neville about having a date, and ruined her very first dance. Ron has lots of 'splainin' to do. Hermione is not going to cut him any slack. He's got to grow up and ask her nicely -- he certainly owes her that much! And, possibly Hermione *does* stop spending time with Krum -- we don't know. We don't *see* her choosing to be alone with Krum any more, except briefly to say goodbye. She is not very encouraging to him at the Second Task. There is apparently enough lacking in their relationship that Krum is worried enough to ask Harry if she has something going on with him (ironically guessing the wrong friend). I'm sure we'll find out more about this in OOP when the Bulgaria invitation is dealt with. As for her relationship with Ron, I believe that Hermione has drawn back. She is embarrassed by how much she revealed in the "next time" comment, and she retreats to a safer friendship ground. Both of them are "oddly formal," seeming to tacitly agree to hold off on "that kind of stuff." Both of them show restraint when they see Krum at the lake, and when Krum comes to say goodbye. Even the pestle- pounding Potions class scene is quite restrained. They're both scared. There's no rush. What will come, will come. > Angua: <<<<<< that Hermione *doesn't* like Ron as more than a friend?>>>>>>>>>>>>> Penny: > I think the answer is that she likes Harry ........ though maybe she likes them both. But, frankly, if I wanted R/H to be an ultimate happy-ever-after resolution, I'm not so sure I'd be jumping up & down by the idea that they might date at age 15. Angua again: But "Hermione likes Harry" *isn't* an answer to "does Hermione like Ron as more than a friend?" As you point out, she might like both. So even if you were to show "proof" that Hermione likes Harry as more than a friend in GoF (and I would be astonished if you could), it still wouldn't really answer the question. You're right about one thing. The slower R/H is developed and the later they become a couple, the more likely they are to be still paired at the end of the series. But one's long-term goals and one's short-term wishes sometimes conflict. According to my perception, JKR has left us for three-years in a position of flirtus interruptus with Ron and Hermione, and I'm feeling impatient. GoF has more unresolved plot points than the first three books, by far: the house-elf campaign, Hagrid's and Maxime's shared mission, Snape's secret task, Fudge's threat to Dumbledore, Rita's fate, etc. Ron and Hermione's unresolved situation is just one of many. But, you know, we R/H shippers didn't choose to put them in that situation and feel all this UST -- JKR did that to us. We're just responding to the stimulus she gave us. Penny: > Quite rare, even in fiction, even in the wizarding world, for that to work out as a long-term relationship. Angua again: > And quite rare for a love triangle where two best friends fall for the same person to work out with a happy ending, too. I say -- what the heck! -- let's get Ron and Hermione together and let them take their chances. You can hope for them to be miserable together and break up, and I'll hope for them to live happily ever after. Angua From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jan 22 20:05:36 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:05:36 -0000 Subject: FILK: Yule Be Paired! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50311 Yule Be Paired! A filk by Pippin To the Tune of Be Prepared! from The Lion King Hear the original at http://www.lionking.org/lyrics/OMPS/BePrepared.html ~Dedicated to Our HPfGU Shippers, whatever floats their boat~ The scene: Professor McGonagall reveals the Unexpected Task (lines in () are Harry's) There's an ancient Tri-wizard tradition Which I am about to explain A Ball will be held, it's your mission, >From attendance you cannot refrain It's clear from your clueless expression You'd rather just diddle your wand But Potter you'd best pay attention This matter is out of your hand I know that your powers of selection Are under-developed at best But it's now you must make an election Which partner to take as your guest It's traditional Tri-Wizard history We'll all let our hair down and jam We're having a knees-up You'd better not freeze up (And where do I feature?) Just listen to teacher I know it sounds sordid But you'll be escorted When at first you walk onto the floor And the opening dance will be shared You'll be paired! (It's great than I've been so selected I'd rather go fight the Dark Lord) Though this is a task unexpected You must take your duty on board The issue's already decided Although I can see you're at sea You simply cannot put aside it Or else you will answer to me! You'll be paired for the dance of a lifetime (Nooo!) Though it's not for the rest of your lives (Nooo!....I don't dance) A date you are lacking (How rude!) It's time to get cracking (I'm screwed!) Your look of denial (I've flat feet) Is simply why I'll (I'm dead meat) Accept no excuses (...noooo!....) Refusal reduces (...noooo!...) The honor of Hogwarts, your school! (I would rather face Snape in a duel!) Yes, you'll do it for Hogwarts your school! You'll be paired! (My incompetence soon will be bared) You'll be paired! From heidit at netbox.com Wed Jan 22 20:12:11 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 15:12:11 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Fred/Angelina In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <026501c2c252$8d4b14d0$0301a8c0@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 50312 > Angua posted > > <<< and George trying to borrow Pigwidgeon, Fred and George discouraging > Ron's questions with insults, and Fred publicly asking Angelina for a > date. She is not shown responding at all, not looking up from her > work - nothing.>>> > Penny replied > > Well ...... why *would* she? She's quietly studying because she is > surrounded by normalcy. > Angua replied: > Fred and Angelina's shouted conversation was not normal > common room fare. I thought it was *very* interesting, and I would > have thought Hermione might as well. Actually, I have seen a few Fred/Angelina SHIPpers use Hermione's seeming disinterest as canon basis for their belief that Fred and Angelina were dating before the Yule Ball and that his asking her to go was (a) a bit of a formality as they both already assumed they'd be going together, and/or (b) a bit of an in-joke to their classmates who were in the common room at the time, again, because they were already dating. IMHO, it was a clever way for JKR to introduce a sort of behind the scenes longstanding (or at least already existing) relationship into the story. Heidi From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jan 22 20:38:51 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:38:51 -0000 Subject: JKR's marriage: are we hearing about it? In-Reply-To: <01b101c2c24f$03b8e8d0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50313 Penny:" All I'm saying is that Rowling had one relatioship with lots of tension, sparks and passion ..... and it did not end well at all. I've no idea what her relationship with Dr. Murray is like, but if I were a betting woman, I'd say that she might well have had her fill of tempestuous passionate relationships marked by lots of bickering and rows." All this becomes even more interesting the more you accept Hermione as JKR's Mary Sue. JKR has often made the comparison between Hermione and herself, and she's said characters end up with the wrong people, at least at first. Penny:"Please don't misunderstand and think that I'm suggesting Ron would be violent or abusive to Hermione. I'm not. Not at all. I'm also not suggesting that all relationships where the couple spark from the passion created by rows end up in violence and threats." Amen, sister. Absolutely. JKR may not talk about her first marriage, but she isn't above an elbow in the ribs: Penny:"and they were married on Oct 16, 1992 (Smith notes with amusement that the date Rowling chose for Trelawney's prediction relating to Lavender was Oct 16th ..... "that thing you dread, it will happen on Oct 16th")." Are more jabs to come? What form will they take? And how will Hermione's decisions compare to those of her mentor from the Muggle world? Jim Ferer, who spends some time imagining the things he should have said and done. From starropal at hotmail.com Wed Jan 22 20:30:49 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:30:49 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: McGonagall Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50314 Ginger: >This is one of those things that danced in my head as though there >were something I was missing. It hit me at work last night: >McGonagall *did* know that Sirius was innocent. In PoA, McGonagall >reminds third year Gryffs that permission slips are to be handed in >to her as she is the head of their house. That being the case, Harry >would have had to hand in to her his fourth year slip, which (end of >PoA) was signed by Sirius. Imagine the look on her face if she >didn't know at that time! Not necessarily... "*I, Sirius Black, Harry Potter's godfather, hereby give him permission to visit Hogsmeade on weekends.* 'That'll be good enough for Dumbledore!' said Harry happily." - PoA ch 22 page 433 US paperback I think that Harry would've given or sent that to Dumbledore directly, not McGonagall. Whether or not she could tell if Sirius was as animagus, or if Dumbledore had told her, ect - Harry wouldn't know, so he wouldn't have risked it. Then if McGonagall asked Dumbledore about it I just see him saying, "Trust me, Minerva, its been taken care of." with a twinkle in his eyes. Star Opal who doesn't support any Evil!McGonagall theories _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From flower_fairy12 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jan 22 20:51:16 2003 From: flower_fairy12 at yahoo.co.uk (flower_fairy12 ) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:51:16 -0000 Subject: Harry's Fan Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50315 I know this has been brought up before, but I was thinking about it this morning. JKR said in a interview (dunno which one, sorry) that in OoP, a fan of Harry's will die. Well maybe it won't be Hagrid, Dumbledore or another of Harry's friends then? I'm thinking it's more likely to be Viktor Krum, Cho Chang, Colin Creevey or possibly Fleur Delacour. So, these are not major characters, I know, but they are all fan's of Harry's in some way aren't they? They admire him and are friendly to him. And you have to admit, if Harry wasn't famous, then Cho, Krum, and Colin proably wouldn't have noticed him in a million years. Besides, Harry's true friends can't be exactly 'fans' of him can they? I mean, yeah, Ron is jealous by his fame and all, but he isn't a 'fan' of Harry Potter. For example, if your best friend was a very famous actor/ess and you had known him/her for years then you wouldn't exactly say 'I'm a fan', you'd say 'I'm a friend'. Well, that's what I'm getting at. I'll stop rambling. :) Rosie From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 22 21:17:12 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 13:17:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Fred/Angelina In-Reply-To: <026501c2c252$8d4b14d0$0301a8c0@Frodo> Message-ID: <20030122211712.78330.qmail@web20010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50316 --- heiditandy wrote: > > > Angua posted > > > <<< notes through Fred > > and George trying to borrow Pigwidgeon, Fred and > George discouraging > > Ron's questions with insults, and Fred publicly > asking Angelina for a > > date. She is not shown responding at all, not > looking up from her > > work - nothing.>>> > > > Penny replied > > > Well ...... why *would* she? She's quietly > studying because she is > > surrounded by normalcy. > > > Angua replied: > > Fred and Angelina's shouted conversation was not > normal > > common room fare. I thought it was *very* > interesting, and I would > > have thought Hermione might as well. > > Actually, I have seen a few Fred/Angelina SHIPpers > use Hermione's > seeming disinterest as canon basis for their belief > that Fred and > Angelina were dating before the Yule Ball and that > his asking her to go > was (a) a bit of a formality as they both already > assumed they'd be > going together, and/or (b) a bit of an in-joke to > their classmates who > were in the common room at the time, again, because > they were already > dating. IMHO, it was a clever way for JKR to > introduce a sort of behind > the scenes longstanding (or at least already > existing) relationship into > the story. > > Heidi > I'm a definite F/A shipper, but I'm not sure whether or not I agree with this scenario. For one thing Angelina looked at Fred "appraisingly" and for another there was the half-smile. If anything I'd say they were semi-dating (events alone together that were never actually called dates) or that they were dating but were not boyfriend/girlfriend. And it didn't occur to Fred to ask until then (leaning towards the latter). So she probably figured they were going together, but it was still nice to be asked. And the appraising look was just her own smart-alec attitude cause she'd have to have one to be with Fred. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From megalynn44 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 22 21:23:51 2003 From: megalynn44 at hotmail.com (Megalynn S.) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:23:51 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Jobs Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50317 > > wrote: > > > So... any ideas for where else they can work *to > > earn money*? Death- > > eating and 'taking a year off to get some first-hand > > experience at > > DADA' do not count! Well, obviously the Daily Prophet is not a part of the MOM. And I know you mentioned that they can work in shops, but I don't think that should be glossed over. In the real world a substantial amount of the population runs private businesses. This leaves room for wands, robes, or as the twins have displayed jokes. I am sure there are thousands of goods and services for businesses wizards can run. Also, Bill works for Gringotts not the MInistry. Plus when the Weasley's went to Egypt they mentioned that some of teh tombs were enchanted by ancient wizards. Maybe there are archeological wizards. Not to mention all the other possible scholars and authors that write books for the wizarding world. And let's not forget professional Quidditch player. My point is, it may seem like there are only a small amount of jobs, but it's not true. The fact that the wizard population as a whole is small is what makes it seem like that. I really think wizards have as many (if not more) job prospects as muggles. Which leads yet again to my question, why doesn't MOlly work? But I digress. Megalynn _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 22 20:07:45 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:07:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dumbledore, Snap and Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030122200745.94848.qmail@web21008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50318 Two rumors that I've read here I think is quite interesting but not necessarily good are.... 1. That Snape kills Dumbledore (with Dumbledore's consent) in order to get back into Voldemort's good graces. I think that's blatantly impossible. I am positive Dumbledore will be around till the end. Or if he does die, it'll be in book 7. He is the glue that holds the anti-Voldemort allience together and seems to know a whole lot that he doesn't confide to anybody. Also, looking practically, starting with Cedric, the book series has taken a darker, more serious tone, but killing off Hagrid in book 5 will be depressing enough! Nothing is happening to Dumbledore... BUT, one interesting rumor I heard a long time ago is that Snap and Dumbledore will arrange to FAKE his murder! That would be a pausible possibility. Not probable maybe, but pausible. 2. A more persistant rumor is that Fudge tries to sack Dumbledore. This is of course based on his comment to Dumbledore about discussing with him matters concerning the running of the school. This is possible but I wonder....First, judging by a comment Hagrid makes in book one about Fudge flooding Dumbledore with a flood of owls asking advice, I would say Dumbledore holds the same prestigue in Fudge's eyes as with everybody else. Also, as he is one who wants to hide his head in the bucket, would Fudge wish to tangle with Dumbledore anymore then he wishes to acknowledge the presence of Voldemort? Maybe he will try to get him sacked (it's NOT obvious that he has the authority or power to do so as Minister of Magic) but it's also possible that the comment was just meaningless bluster to cover up his not wishing to face what he was hearing at the time. We'll see about this one though. Huggs Becky From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jan 22 22:25:32 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 22:25:32 -0000 Subject: JKR's marriage In-Reply-To: <01b101c2c24f$03b8e8d0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50319 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Penny Linsenmayer wrote: >> I'm also not suggesting that all relationships where the couple spark from the passion created by rows end up in violence and threats. << Me: But you've got it just backward! R/H er's don't see the passion created by rows, at least *I* don't. I see the rows as created by passion. Once Ron and Hermione have matured enough to express their true feelings, (if ever they do--I expect that will take time), they won't need to hide them behind this mask of conflict. Penny: >>I'd say that she might well have had her fill of tempestuous passionate relationships marked by lots of bickering and rows. << Me: Whatever. As long as she isn't too traumatized to write about them. But as Ron and Hermione already have a tempestuous relationship marked by bickering and rows, that hardly seems to be the case. Pippin From Ali at zymurgy.org Wed Jan 22 22:31:07 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali ) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 22:31:07 -0000 Subject: Teenage romance wasRe: SHIP: That Darned Kiss--The Problem With ading R/H in GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50320 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "blauemeanies " wrote: >>> As to the tean romance question, yes many fail but not all do. If she can show a teen romance that has a lot of the things that keep an adult romance together, then I don't think we should write it off because of their age. It does happen. Not all the time, or to everyone, but it does happen. And R/Hr have a type of intimacy that makes them more likely to sustain than many teen prom fantasy relationships. Statistically speaking, yes most fail, but statistically speaking most people aren't chased by megolomaniacal dark lords either.<<< I think the key question here, is not whether most teenage romances work, but whether JKR thinks that they can. IIRC her own mother was only 20 when she was born, indicating that her parents met when they were both young. James and Lily Potter and Arthur and Molly Weasley met at Hogwarts. These are clear examples of successful teenage romances in the Potterverse.(This is obviously from the evidence that we have to date, as I suppose it is possible that James and Lily's relationship was a sham). If you accept that the WW is in some way harking back to a bygone era, it is possible to believe that wizards could meet their life partners in their teens, just as many did in say the Victorian era. Ali (Who met her (now) husband when she was 18, and 16 years later is still very happy). From lupinesque at yahoo.com Wed Jan 22 22:50:30 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z ) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 22:50:30 -0000 Subject: Troll comment again, Hermione's blush In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50321 I'll just keep fighting two fires, here. Penny wrote: > Penny: > > I agree that she was very hurt by the trolls remark, but it may or > may not have anything to do with personal feelings for Ron. > > Angua again: > But I agree with you that Hermione was hurt, and is not just needling > Ron for fun, or from feminism. She speaks "loftily" and "acidly," > and "snaps." There is no lifted eyebrows or sly grin of appreciation > for karma -- she is angry. I don't think she is SO insecure about > her appearance, or SO militantly feminist, as to be *hurt* by Ron's > remark, UNLESS she wants him to find her attractive. The contrast > between her sensitivity here (when Ron wasn't even talking about her) > and her nonchalance in response to truly vicious public insults about > her teeth from Draco Malfoy and Pansy Parkinson is striking to me. OK, both of you. Where do you get the idea that Hermione is "hurt" by Ron's remark, or even thinks it is a comment on her own appearance? The key words are "splutter of indignation," "bristling," "snapped," and "swept off." Where's the cue about hurt as distinct from anger? Where's the cue that she's taking it personally at all? Likewise, I see a non-SHIP-related explanation for the blush. Angua wrote: > > <<<< that she > > is bragging to Ron in a way that is likely to show him that she IS > > attractive to boys, after all, and maybe (hopefully?) make him > > jealous. She blushes *every* time she tells Ron about Viktor > liking > > her.>>>>>>>>>>> Penny wrote: > > If she blushes *every* time she talks about Viktor liking her, that > might be because *Harry is there.* How about this? She's blushing because they're talking about her dating life. It's personal. It's embarrassing. It touches on something heretofore secret and rather exciting. Hence, a blush. Lots of people can be reduced to blushing with the words, "I think he likes you . . ." or "Who are you going to the ball with?" The situation is blushworthy even if no one one feels attracted to is listening (I *do* think Hermione would very possibly blush when she told Ginny about it). Amy who has the misfortune of being one of those people who blushes at the drop of a hat From gandharvika at hotmail.com Wed Jan 22 23:02:30 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:02:30 +0000 Subject: (FILK) The Inner Eye Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50322 The Inner Eye (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Within You And Without You_ by the Beatles) A Midi here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle13.html Scene: First day of Divinations class. The students have come into the Divination's classroom, wondering where the Professor is. Then, from out of nowhere, comes the mystical drone of the tamboura, the sound of a sitar and sarangi and the beat of the tabula. From behind a beaded curtain Prof. Trelawney emerges, bedecked in a gauzy spangled shawl singing and making the appropriate hand mudras: Prof. Trelawney: I'll be teaching...Divination to all of you But I warn you...It's very difficult to do If you don't have...the gift of the sight...there's very little...That I can teach you I'll be showing...in very explicit detail You'll be able...to penetrate the unseen veil You will see (you will see)...through this mystery... Then you'll understand Try to be receptive to the resonances of the subtle aura It is such a burden to be All-Knowing You can see everything through the Inner Eye (musical interlude) We'll be covering...the basic methods of this art It's a rare gift...that I'm not able to impart Only few (only few)...they can see...are you one of them? When you've looked beyond this world then you will gaze through this haze called the future The time will come when you too will preview what will happen just by using the Inner Eye -Gail B. who almost feels blasphemous for messing with this song. Hare Krishna. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 22 22:36:39 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:36:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Fan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030122223639.15307.qmail@web40503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50323 --- "flower_fairy12 " wrote: > I know this has been brought up before, but I was > thinking about it > this morning. JKR said in a interview (dunno which > one, sorry) that > in OoP, a fan of Harry's will die. Well maybe it > won't be Hagrid, > Dumbledore or another of Harry's friends then? > > I'm thinking it's more likely to be Viktor Krum, Cho > Chang, Colin > Creevey or possibly Fleur Delacour. The thing is, I don't think it would be very significant for one of those characters to die. I mean, of them all, we know Krum the best, and we don't know him well at all. They aren't main parts of the story, so it wouldn't be a huge trauma to the series if they were killed. I hate to say it, but I really think it's going to be Hagrid. Yes, he is Harry's friend, but during GoF he really became a fan too. A number of times Hagrid kept telling Harry, (paraphrase) "You're gonna win" and "You're gonna be the champion". And Harry didn't know what to say because he was so nervous that he didn't know how to respond to Hagrid's insistence upon him winning. He's really the only person I'm comfortable calling "a fan" that I think is important enough to the story to have a hard to write death. ~Kathryn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From starropal at hotmail.com Wed Jan 22 22:45:58 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:45:58 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore, Snap and Fudge Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50324 Becky said: >2. A more persistent rumor is that Fudge tries to sack Dumbledore. What if Dumbledore resigned? Now hear me out - Fudge says: "I will be in touch with you tomorrow, Dumbledore, to discuss the running of this school." - Gof ch 36 page 710, US paperback He is threatening, but perhaps its not to fire Dumbledore, but to pull the reigns in on him. See a lot of people seem to like and respect DD. Its known that Voldemort feared him, so he is powerful and people would want someone like that to watch over their children since LV is coming back (even if the MoM can cover it up from the general wizarding public, the students know [because DD told them], so the parents will end up knowing). It would be a huge political 'no-no' to dismiss DD. _SO_ instead, Fudge uses his influence to try to control Dumbledore. DD claims he won't be used like some sort of puppet and resigns naming McGonagall his successor. BUT the real reason he does this is to build a secret head quarters where he, the 'old crowd', the Weasleys, the giants, ect. can gather forces and the like without being impended by the Ministry or Voldemort. Therefore 'sacked' would be referring to someone else, which would keep with JKR's twisty writing style. Or I could be way off base here... Star Opal who thinks Yahoo needs a better search feature and HOPES this isn't repetitive _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From pennylin at swbell.net Wed Jan 22 23:57:31 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 17:57:31 -0600 Subject: Troll comment again, Hermione's blush References: Message-ID: <026d01c2c272$06bc9e00$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 50325 Hi -- > I said: > > I agree that she was very hurt by the trolls remark, but it may or may not have anything to do with personal feelings for Ron. > > Angua again: > But I agree with you that Hermione was hurt, and is not just needling > Ron for fun, or from feminism. She speaks "loftily" and "acidly," > and "snaps." There is no lifted eyebrows or sly grin of appreciation for karma -- she is angry. I don't think she is SO insecure about her appearance, or SO militantly feminist, as to be *hurt* by Ron's > remark, UNLESS she wants him to find her attractive. >>>>> Amy Z earlier said: <<<>>> Amy Z then said: <<<>>>>>> I've *always* said that the Trolls remark scene is Hermione reacting to Ron being a sexist cad. I think she must have been somewhat stung to bring it up later ("All the good-looking ones taken?") ...... but I've *never, ever* assumed it had anything to do with Hermione taking it personally. I think she had a very typical feminist reaction is all. I agree with Amy: there's nothing in the interaction to indicate that Hermione was hoping Ron would ask her or felt *personally* insulted so much. I somehow doubt that she was sitting there doodling Ron + Hermione in her notebook and wondering when he would ask her. She may have already had her date with Krum by then anyway. But then, I also see her antagonism with Fleur as being a feminist position rather than some personal animus relating to Ron and Fleur. <<<>>>> I couldn't agree more. I don't *really* think her blushes have anything to do with Harry *or* Ron. But, I think it's problematic to try & argue that she blushes because of Ron when Harry is also sitting right there in every instance. IOW, it's just as likely that Harry inspires the blushes as Ron. Penny (who has lots more comments to make later.....don't all jump up & down at once! ) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From manoligh at hotmail.com Wed Jan 22 22:04:10 2003 From: manoligh at hotmail.com (moonless_me ) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 22:04:10 -0000 Subject: Why so much waiting? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50326 Why do I have to wait to get the new Potter books translated into Spanish at least three months before they would appear in English? This is not fair, I would buy the copy in English and couldn't comment on it till my friends have the copy translated. Why can't they just make a worldwide release? -- moonless_me From cmsore at wm.edu Thu Jan 23 00:01:10 2003 From: cmsore at wm.edu (blauemeanies ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 00:01:10 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore, Snap and Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50327 > Becky said: > >2. A more persistent rumor is that Fudge tries to sack Dumbledore. > Actually, Fudge does not have the power to do that. The enigmatic Board of Governors are the only people who can do that, and when Fudge tried to stop Lucius and the board from sacking Dumbledore in CoS, he was told quite directly that there was nothing he could do to stop the governors. Now, I get the feeling that the other eleven governors (and perhaps Lucius's unknown replacement because he was kicked off this board at the end of CoS) are Dumbledore supporters. They are also likely a little embarassed for having been pressured by Lucius and will likely resist pressure from the more incompetent Fudge (nothing against him, but I can think of very few things more effective than a Lucius Malfoy bribe, threat, blackmail session). And if Voldemort moves into the open, they will likely stand behind Dumbledore like they did when Ginny was taken into the chamber. I always found that a highly empty threat on Fudge's part, and the most he can do regarding the running of the school is be a nuisance and try to convince the governors. He can do more to the general resistance though. -- blauemeanies From skelkins at attbi.com Thu Jan 23 00:13:25 2003 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 00:13:25 -0000 Subject: Real characters & persuasive argument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50328 Amy wrote: > It's not a matter of affection for the characters (there's > no arguing that point, as affection for characters is as > irrational and indefensible as affection for real-life people), > but of supporting your argument with the full range of evidence. But, but, but... But if you are trying to explain why you reacted to a given text in a particular way, then why on earth would you present evidence that had nothing to do with what you were trying to explain? I don't understand this at all. Wouldn't that be a rather *odd* thing to do, really? If what you are trying to convey, for example, is "Ron and Harry strike me as really inconsiderate. Their behavior upsets me a great deal when I read the books. Here are some examples of the sorts of things they do that have made me feel this way," then why on earth would you cite things that *hadn't* made you feel that way? I mean, that would just be downright *weird,* wouldn't it? I would certainly find it strange. If nothing else, it would make ones post utterly incoherent. As Ebony said: > Why would I point out all of Ron's very good characteristics in > an essay in which I am speaking about why I do not like the idea > of him with Hermione, when such evidence is tangential to the > topic? Yes, precisely. Why would one? I see no reason why one would want to do that. It's not a matter of sneaky rhetorical ploys, as some people seem to be implying. It is simply a matter of coherence and of *relevance.* Amy wrote (about Eileen's message #50164): > . . . in either case it takes more than a citation of their > inconsiderate moments to make the argument. At least, that's > what it takes if you want to convince *me.* I believe that the problem here may be that you have misconstrued the intended argument of both Eileen's and Ebony's posts. If you look back to Eileen's original post #50164, for example, you will see that she wrote this sentence (set apart in a paragraph of its very own, in fact, as if for emphasis): > But I don't expect *anyone* to concede that *either* > Ron or Harry is as flawed as I read them. In other words, she was never trying to "convince you," or anyone else, to consider these characters as inconsiderate as she does. She went out of her way to make that explicit. *Very* explicit. What she was trying to do was to *explain* her reader response. (She was also trying to make a point about the Affective Fallacy in the process: namely, that the reader's own personal gut emotional reaction to certain characters in the story should not *necessarily* be assumed to be shared by the other characters in the story.) Similarly, as Ebony implied in the paragraph I quoted above, she too was trying not to convince, per se, but to *explain.* To share her experience. To explain her position. To use written language for its intended purpose. To *communicate* something. Something about herself. Something about how she as a reader interpreted this particular text. What I guess I'm finding upsetting here is the vague feeling that I get from this thread, a feeling that so long as a reader's response is sufficiently idiosyncratic (which is only to be expected: after all, there would be very little point in bothering to set forth ones reasons for having a *universal* response to a text, would there?, which as I read it, was precisely a large part of Eileen's *point*) and sufficiently powerfully expressed (which one would think we would value on this list, but which sometimes it seems that we don't), that it is therefore held to be in some way invalid, or even *unfair.* Dishonest. Naught but sophistry. Unfair use of rhetoric. Now, what is this reminding me of? Certain words and phrases seem to be coming back to haunt me somehow. . . . Over-analyzing the text. Strident. Over-stating the case. Misreading. Not how one "should" interpret the text. Not Fair Play. Why, what *is* this strangely familiar odor, wafting by on the breeze? Ah! I have it! Smells like Twins spirit. -- Elkins From jferer at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 00:16:03 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 00:16:03 -0000 Subject: JKR's marriage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50329 Penny: "I'd say that she [JKR] might well have had her fill of tempestuous passionate relationships marked by lots of bickering and rows." Pippin:"Whatever. As long as she isn't too traumatized to write about them. But as Ron and Hermione already have a tempestuous relationship marked by bickering and rows, that hardly seems to be the case. " The point, course, is that JKR is not likely to be viewing these tempestuous relationships in a favorable light, given that her own experience with them was bad. To bring it down to canon, JKR has her alter ego on the edge of the same kind of relationship that JKR had to get out of. Now there's no proof that JKR will make *this* tempestuous relationship a negative one; after all, JKR has lots of imagination. Jim Ferer, who is reminded of his own past relationship when he reads about Dementors. From baringer2k at aol.com Thu Jan 23 00:09:13 2003 From: baringer2k at aol.com (baringer2k at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 19:09:13 EST Subject: Further significance of Neville Longbottom Message-ID: <6b.7ceb9d4.2b608ca9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50330 I had been considering something based upon what several posters have written regarding Neville Longbottom. I believe that the Longbottoms were powerful magic-users, and had a lot of responsibilities--and from that a lot of notoriety and maybe even prestige...? In my reading, I have not come across any concrete instances showing Neville was a great student, and yet I have not seen any references to him failing a course or even a grade.? Could the administration at Hogwarts be passing him for reasons beyond his academic performance? Perhaps they are aware of some potential that he has, as yet untapped? Perhaps they are aware of some strength he has that he's not aware of? I'm curious to see what others think of this. Thanks, Marcus [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cmsore at wm.edu Thu Jan 23 00:55:30 2003 From: cmsore at wm.edu (blauemeanies ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 00:55:30 -0000 Subject: JKR's marriage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50331 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer " wrote: > > The point, course, is that JKR is not likely to be viewing these > tempestuous relationships in a favorable light, given that her own > experience with them was bad. To bring it down to canon, JKR has her > alter ego on the edge of the same kind of relationship that JKR had > to get out of. > However, we don't have strong evidence of what JKR sees this relationship dynamic as truly having been and why it was such a bad one. She could see it as a result of repressed feelings of annoyance or dislike that would explode into conflict at times and linger from what would be at times a deceptively harmonius relationship to the participant, which would make her memories of the event similar to the worst case Harry/Hermione scenario. You could be right, a relationship that often has light and playful bickering would degenerate into nasty angry unreconcilable fights at times. which would make her memories of the events similar to the worst case Ron/Hermione scenario. Or it could have been the result of very disparate world views and his being a really nasty, rude person that would create a highly charged atmosphere where there was a vain hope that love could conquer all but it failed miserably degenerating into fighting of this sort, which would make it very like the best case Draco/Hermione relationship in her memory (ok, I'm very, very hard on Draco/Hermione, shoot me). Or there could be no relationship dynamic that even vaguely resembles what she saw going wrong in the marriage. I find it unlikely that JKR would write a sympathetic view of a character that is supposed to be like her ex-husband, and I think she is writing Ron as a sympathetic even positive character. I guess I can see any relationship degenerating into a screaming and negative relationship like the one Penny says was documented by third party observers in the biography. What matters is what JKR felt went wrong, and that doesn't necessarily mean she has the negative image that you believe she does towards a relationship like R/Hr because of it. I haven't read the biography, so I am at a disadvantage. R/Hr could even be the image of what a successful relationship should be like after experiencing a different type of bad romantic relationship. It does, in the eyes of supporters, have similarities to a positive relationship in the books (Molly/Arthur) and they do show leanings toward being able to work out problems, they frequently forgive quickly and other signs that this might just grow into a healthy relationship. I don't know what we really know about her views on romance from having such a negative romance. "cmsore" From huntleyl at mssm.org Thu Jan 23 01:30:07 2003 From: huntleyl at mssm.org (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:30:07 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: The Yule Brawl--The Problem With Reading R/H in GoF References: Message-ID: <004301c2c27e$f6d642e0$3301a8c0@huntleyl> No: HPFGUIDX 50332 First off, Penny, I love you. ^_~ You give this H/H's pessimistic heart a shred of hope. Angua: > But, once Ron gave Hermione the opening, she certainly WAS curious > about Ron's dating criteria. She could have *easily* given the > conversation a Harry-related turn, even by something as simple as > saying "So basically, you're going to take the best-looking *girls* > who'll have you," rather than "best-looking *girl* who'll have you. But she's attacking Ron for his ghastly remark. Harry didn't do anything wrong, why should she turn on him as well? As someone who has launched similar attacks for similar reasons, I know that I, at least, try not to let the overflow of scathing remark (ha!) fall on innocent bystanders. It's only polite. Angua: > Another missed opportunity occurred when Hagrid asked Harry who he > was taking to the ball a few pages earlier. If Hermione had looked > at Harry, or changed the subject, or done anything, really, that > could have been taken as a clue. The fact that she didn't doesn't > prove anything -- it's just another of the many, many places where > H/H *could have been* foreshadowed, but *isn't*. I agree with your point here. There are few instances that might be construed as *solid* support for H/H. However, I see very little instances that give concrete support for Hr ---> R, either. As far as I can tell, the only thing we can be sure of is that Ron Likes Hermione. A lot. We don't know if she returns his feelings -- and as far as I've seen, R/Hers have yet to come up with anything but shaky (at best) conjectures and hypothesis about what she might be feeling in certain circumstances. Angua: > But I agree with you that Hermione was hurt, and is not just needling > Ron for fun, or from feminism. She speaks "loftily" and "acidly," > and "snaps." There is no lifted eyebrows or sly grin of appreciation > for karma -- she is angry. I don't think she is SO insecure about > her appearance, or SO militantly feminist, as to be *hurt* by Ron's > remark, UNLESS she wants him to find her attractive. I would definitely be just as insulted by those remarks whether I liked Ron or not. They're horrid, uncalled for, and totally chauvinistic. Furthermore, I *don't* think it takes militant feminism to feel the way I do. Granted, I understand that teenage boys often act this way...and even men and women of all ages...I've probably said something similar myself at one point, but if I ever heard one of my friends saying what Ron said, I wouldn't soon let him forget about it. Especially as he was not in the least sorry when his error was pointed out to him. I think most of us caught judging people solely on their looks would feel properly ashamed when we realized what we were doing -- not Ron. He just plows on, as if there's nothing wrong with it. Insult upon insult. Angua: >The contrast > between her sensitivity here (when Ron wasn't even talking about her) > and her nonchalance in response to truly vicious public insults about > her teeth from Draco Malfoy and Pansy Parkinson is striking to me. But those are people she doesn't respect -- despises them, actually. She's used to them being stupid and arrogant and vile. She doesn't give a rat's ass what they think. But Ron is one of her best friends. Someone she's been through *a lot* with and cares for. Of course she'd take objection to his comments and not to Malfoy's. Again, who cares what Malfoy thinks? He's pathetic and she dislikes him anyway. Do you think that she would have let Harry get away with saying what Ron said? I really can't even begin to imagine that -- it would be totally uncharacteristic of her. > Angua: > > <<<< that she > > is bragging to Ron in a way that is likely to show him that she IS > > attractive to boys, after all, and maybe (hopefully?) make him > > jealous. She blushes *every* time she tells Ron about Viktor > liking > > her.>>>>>>>>>>> Amy Z: >How about this? She's blushing because they're talking about her >dating life. It's personal. It's embarrassing. It touches on >something heretofore secret and rather exciting. Hence, a blush. >Lots of people can be reduced to blushing with the words, "I think he >likes you . . ." or "Who are you going to the ball with?" The >situation is blushworthy even if no one one feels attracted to is >listening (I *do* think Hermione would very possibly blush when she >told Ginny about it). I agree with Amy here. I was certainly that way at Hermione's age....far past it, actually. If I was put in a situation that I could not just ignore my self out of (i.e. a boy actually asked me out or I had to explain someone else's feelings for me or v.v.) I would not only start to blush, but my hands would start to shake -- regardless of if I actually *liked* anyone in a 80 mile radius. And I. Am. Not. Afraid. Of. Anything. Except that. I think Hermione's reaction is very typical of a girl her age who is new to dealing with relationships and *liking* people (or not liking them) and the emotional conflict and confusion that brings. > Angua again: > No -- we think that there is all this wonderful bantering R/H > interaction happening ON-PAGE. Well, we think it probably happens > off-page as well (because why wouldn't it?) but what we see right > there in canon is plenty enough to stoke our engines. They banter > beautifully, especially considering their young age. Banter? *Banter*?! Calling what Hermione and Ron do "banter" is an insult to a very fine art. They bicker. They out-and-out fight. They insult one another. They do not banter. To banter is to tease. To make witty semi-clawed comments. To engage in playful mock-sparring. They do nothing of the sort. Occasionally Ron will say something mean-but-humorous that is meant to rile her (which can be a lead-in to banter), but I cannot recall Hermione reacting with anything but irritation or anger (again, not bantering) -- she does not play back. Mostly, however, he's just being cluelessly insensitive. > Angua again: > This is a possibility, but we can eliminate it by looking more > closely at the text. The time when Hermione looked as though Ron had > slapped her and her voice quivered, Ron wasn't accusing her of > *disloyalty*: > > ***** > ..."He's just trying to get closer to Harry -- get inside information > on him -- or get near enough to jinx him --" > ***** > > Ron might be said to be accusing Hermione of *gullibility* here, but > not disloyalty. In this scenario, Krum is the wicked deceitful > Lothario and Hermione is the innocent dupe. But the "Krum doesn't > like you for yourself" implication is full-blast. Yes, and if my best friend behaved the way Ron did (male *or* female) I would be incredibly hurt as well. He's not only calling her gullible - refuting the one thing Hermione *is* sure she has going for her...intelligence and rational thinking - but he's suggesting that no one would date her for any other reason. I can't see Hermione's reaction as being different if someone else who mattered to her had said it (how could Malfoy's opinon even register as semi-relevant to her?). Furthermore, he *is* her friend and he *ought* to be happy for her -- it's a very special night for her, she's had a triumph of sort over people like Malfoy, etc. Instead, he insults her. Not only does he accusing her of betrayal -- *he's* the one betraying her friendship and trust. From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 01:24:15 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 17:24:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why so much waiting? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030123012415.91889.qmail@web40512.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50333 --- "moonless_me " wrote: > Why do I have to wait to get the new Potter books > translated into > Spanish at least three months before they would > appear in English? > This is not fair, I would buy the copy in English > and couldn't > comment on it till my friends have the copy > translated. > Why can't they just make a worldwide release? > > > -- moonless_me > My guess is simply that a Spanish publishing company hasn't picked up the series. I'm pretty sure that neither Scholastic or Bloomsbury regularly publish in Spanish, so that's why it takes longer to get a Spanish edition. ~Kathryn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From lorischmidt1 at juno.com Thu Jan 23 01:53:58 2003 From: lorischmidt1 at juno.com (ladyofmisrule2000 ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 01:53:58 -0000 Subject: Ron and the Trouble with Veela Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50334 Hi, all! Does anyone have any theories as to why Ron seems to be affected to a greater extent by the veela than Harry is? When Harry, Ron, and Hermione run into "three tall and beautiful veela" in the woods near the site of the Quidditch World Cup, for instance, Ron gets carried away, tells a lie to impress the veela, then gets carried away (literally) by Hermione and Harry. And when Fleur asks for the bouillabaisse at dinner the evening of her arrival, Ron turns purple and gurgles incoherently. Harry, meanwhile, calmly offers Fleur the dish and laughs at Ron. Interestingly enough, the one time Harry was most guilty of succumbing to a veela's "charms," was at the World Cup. At that time, both Ron and Harry seem quite willing to take the plunge for the Bulgarian mascots. The only male nearby who is notably unaffected was Mr. Weasley. Is there some character trait that makes some more resilient to the veela than others? Sincerely, Lori Who hopes her list elf approves of this--her first post--and who wishes you a dementor free day From snorth at ucla.edu Thu Jan 23 02:48:14 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 18:48:14 -0800 Subject: Going down with the SHIP Message-ID: <008a01c2c289$e86de720$0100a8c0@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 50335 Please, forgive me for what I'm about to say. I'm about to do some thinking aloud, and it isn't based on canon (even in the loosest interpretation). This will not be followed by any "Ah-ha's", "provens" or QEDs. Alright, so I was at work yesterday, reading the news on the-leaky-cauldron.org. When I first read the following few paragraphs, I found them somewhat interesting, but nothing particularly special at the time. Tuesday, January 21, 2003 DVD Details I just got an email with details on the DVD - more coming, but I just had to come here and say that some of the interviews on the disks are moderated by none other than Newsround's Lizo Mzimba - including an interview with JKR and Steve Kloves. Quotage: Lizo Mzimba:Can you explain how you work together to produce the final script? Steve Kloves: Well from the beginning she gave me tremendous elbow room but when you're in the middle of a series like this it's important that I talk to Jo along the way and she will tell me if I'm going down the wrong path. J.K. Rowling: I've given him more than I've ever given anyone else, which I probably shouldn't say on screen or they'll kidnap and torture him, and we need him. I filed this bit of information [that movie screenwriter Steve Kloves works closely with JKR while writing the screenplays] away for later use. So today, while reading the many e-mails regarding SHIPs (always entertaining, to say the least), my mind wandered over to the two HP movies, particularly CoS. I thought to myself (and not for the first time, actually), "The movies seem to be setting up a Harry/Hermione romance!" Certainly, some people would argue against this thought, but I'm just relating my impression to y'all. Now, here comes my blasphemy. If JKR is setting up a Ron/Hermione romance for the future books, why do the movies, which she certainly has a hand in, seem to be setting up a Harry/Hermione relationship? I'm sure the R/Hers (and others) will claim the movie does no such thing, but I'll reiterate, these are simply my impressions. I'll just mention that the Hospital Scene where Harry finds the parchment in her hand, and [more importantly] the final scene where the Trio is reunited (I refer to the movies, and not the books, in case you decided to start reading my post from the last sentence ;) are where my impressions were formed. Once again, I beg forgiveness for what I have written above. Now for a more general comment on SHIP. To be honest, all of the arguing over evidence in canon is pointless. I'd hypothesize that for female shippers, they tend to side with whichever male character they feel more attraction towards (or whichever male character they prefer, regardless of any attraction), and the male shippers will side with whichever male character they relate to most (in my case, this is Harry without a doubt). While I believe that the Ron/Hermione scuffles are definite evidence of Ron's attraction to Hermione, R/Hers will try and cite them as evidence of Hermione's attraction to Ron. H/Hers will argue that in the worst case, Hermione is just fed up with Ron because he's being a total jerk (I like Ron, he reminds me of a more insensitive version of my best friend, but his behavior in these instances is horrid), and in the best case, that she definitely likes Harry. I stand somewhere in the middle. I like to think that I have a good grasp on 'the big picture.' Before reading any interpretations of evidence one way or another, I felt that Harry and Hermione would end up together in the long run, and that this would somehow have serious reprecussions with Ron, who tends to see himself as coming in second to Harry most of the time. Simply put, Ron and Hermione ending up together (in the long term) is just too obvious, and contributes little to the plot. I have no shame in admitting that I am most likely biased in favor of H/H just because I can strongly relate to Harry (at least from when I was in High School), and wish him more luck with girls than I had (also, I think I would prefer H/H over H/G or H/C because A) Hermione is the main female protagonist and B) Hermione is the kind of girl I've always been attracted to *grins*). So, take my thoughts for what they're worth. Wow, that ended up being much longer (and covering more ground) than I had intended. If you got this far, Sorry, and Thank you. -Scott (I'm only 20, and claim no insight into the female psyche) P.S. Okay, now, wouldn't it be a fascinating plot twist if Ron and Hermione started to date at some point, and then, one night after serving detention for throwing a frog liver at Draco in potions, Ron enters the common room to find Harry and Hermione kissing? Before you ask, I do feel like a traitor to men everywhere for coming up with a scenario that could have been taken straight out of All My Children (or some other soap). *shrugs* However, I can only imagine Ron's reaction to this, and where it might take the fight against Voldemort. Do the math. From jferer at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 02:48:40 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 02:48:40 -0000 Subject: Why so much waiting? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50336 Dear Moonless, I would imagine that all the various translators don't get the "galley" copies to work from until the editing process is done on the original English version. Then *that* version has to be edited in its turn and maybe reviewed by Bloomsbury. That extra layer of work puts all the translated versions at a disadvantage time-wise. Have you read each book in English *and* Spanish? If so, a lot of us would be interested in your opinion whether the Spanish version captures the feel of the English one, or if there are any interesting differences. Best, Jim Ferer --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "moonless_me " wrote: > Why do I have to wait to get the new Potter books translated into > Spanish at least three months before they would appear in English? > This is not fair, I would buy the copy in English and couldn't > comment on it till my friends have the copy translated. > Why can't they just make a worldwide release? > > > -- moonless_me From huntleyl at mssm.org Thu Jan 23 03:01:53 2003 From: huntleyl at mssm.org (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 22:01:53 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron and the Trouble with Veela References: Message-ID: <008a01c2c28b$c81d47c0$3301a8c0@huntleyl> No: HPFGUIDX 50337 Lori: > Interestingly enough, the one time Harry was most guilty of > succumbing to a veela's "charms," was at the World Cup. At that time, > both Ron and Harry seem quite willing to take the plunge for the > Bulgarian mascots. The only male nearby who is notably unaffected was > Mr. Weasley. > > Is there some character trait that makes some more resilient to the > veela than others? Well there's always the fact that Harry is an extraordinary resilient in their brand of magic (mind control). And Ron....isn't. Whether Ron is sub-par or normal is another debate entirely, of course. Don't like that explaination? What about Mr. Weasley, you say? Well, it could just be that Mr. Weasley has encountered them before and knows what to expect and has trained himself to "deal with it", so to speak, OR: Being in love/like/obsessed with another female else gives you a measure of protection. Mr. Weasley obviously has Molly...and Harry has been noticing Cho quite a bit at this point...Notice that when he's at school and Cho is actually around in person, Harry is pretty much unaffected by Fleur. And I suppose Cedric was also able to fend off her charms because he, too, was in love with Cho. Although, it's pretty obvious that Ron likes Hermione, but that doesn't really stop him much (although making a fool of himself by asking Fleur out did seem to put a crimp in his crush). Laura From snorth at ucla.edu Thu Jan 23 02:58:52 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 18:58:52 -0800 Subject: Ron and the Trouble with Veela References: Message-ID: <009001c2c28b$60866ba0$0100a8c0@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 50338 Lori: > Does anyone have any theories as to why Ron seems to be affected to a > greater extent by the veela than Harry is? I've always just written it off as strength of will. Look at it this way; the first time they both encounter veela, both Harry and Ron are caught by the Veela charms. Mr. Weasley knew what to expect, and could have steeled himself against it. However, in the later cases, when both Harry and Ron know what's coming (for the most part), I think Harry is unaffected simply because he has a stronger will than Ron. Look at it this way- Harry was almost able to fight off the Imperius curse the first time he ever had it cast on him, and was later able to completely resist it. While we have no idea if anyone else was as successful, I'm under the impression only Harry came even close to resisting when Crouch!Moody was trying out the Imperius Curse on the students. This would lead me to believe that Harry has far more willpower than the average 14 year old, or even the average wizard. Also, I seem to recall reading that when the Priori Incantem effect occurs due to brother-wands trying to fight each other, the wand that starts regurgitating is based on the willpower of the two wizards involved (this may or may not be true, I can't recall where I've read it, but it doesn't seem to be from the books, so maybe a JKR interview-- or I'm just crazy). Since it was Voldemort's wand that started coughing up spells in reverse, it is entirely possible that Harry has a stronger will than one of the strongest wizards in the world, Voldemort, which is definitely saying something. So yeah, I'm just going to guess that willpower (and knowledge) has something to do with resisting veela. -Scott From skelkins at attbi.com Thu Jan 23 03:36:12 2003 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 03:36:12 -0000 Subject: Ron and the Trouble with Veela In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50339 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ladyofmisrule2000 " wrote: > Hi, all! > > Does anyone have any theories as to why Ron seems to be affected to > a greater extent by the veela than Harry is? Two possibilities leap to my mind. First, Ron might be more vulnerable to mental magics in general than Harry is. Harry has a freakish ability to resist the Imperius Curse, while we see Ron suffering from the lingering after-effects of one of Crouch/Moody's in-class demonstrations even after DADA class has ended. Those tendencies could apply across the board to all magics of mental domination or influence. Second, it could be because Ron is more physically mature than Harry. Harry *is* small for his age, and it seems to me that Ron started showing an interest in girls (and mildly dirty jokes) rather earlier than Harry did as well. I see signs of Ron taking some romantic interest in Hermione as early as CoS. I don't see any signs of Harry taking the same sort of interest in a girl until PoA. It seems possible to me that on the dead basic physical level, the two boys could just not be at quite the same stage of puberty, which I imagine might have rather a noticable effect on the extent to which lads of That Certain Age respond to the veela. Elkins From pennylin at swbell.net Thu Jan 23 03:45:54 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 21:45:54 -0600 Subject: JKR's marriage (some SHIP) References: Message-ID: <031901c2c291$ee5576a0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 50340 Hi -- cmsore wrote: <<<>>> I don't think she is modeling Ron on her ex-husband, and I agree that Ron is intended to be a positive character (whether *I* view him that way or not). But, the relationship between Ron and Hermione may bear some similarities to her first marriage, and if so, it might not bode well for long-term R/H. It would depend on whether she thinks *some* tempestuous relationships can be affirming and positive for both parties, and we don't know what she thinks at this point. <<<>>> I think that's a stretch. Fact is, the vast majority of healthy relationships do not degenerate into abusive situations. Pippin:"Whatever. As long as she isn't too traumatized to write about them. But as Ron and Hermione already have a tempestuous relationship marked by bickering and rows, that hardly seems to be the case. " Jim responded with: <<>>>>> Yes, exactly. I don't think it much matters to the R/H shippers whether she just writes about tempestuous relationships (she's already doing that, as you point out) -- it matters whether she's going to validate & affirm that relationship by having it continue and succeed in a romantic sense. And, if she's had a negative experience on that front and especially if her current presumably-happy marriage is not of the bickering/tempestuous model, then it could well be that she *won't* affirm it by having her alter-ego enter into such a state of affairs. Pippin earlier argued: <<<<>>>>>> Are you trying to suggest that they've been secretly attracted to each other from the moment they met at age 11? Because that's how long they've been at each other you know. Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fausts at attglobal.net Thu Jan 23 03:59:56 2003 From: fausts at attglobal.net (anguaorc ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 03:59:56 -0000 Subject: Troll comment again, Hermione's blush In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50341 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z " wrote: > OK, both of you. Where do you get the idea that Hermione is "hurt" > by Ron's remark, or even thinks it is a comment on her own > appearance? The key words are "splutter of > indignation," "bristling," "snapped," and "swept off." Where's the > cue about hurt as distinct from anger? Where's the cue that she's > taking it personally at all? I can only answer for myself. :) I believe Hermione takes Ron's remark personally for three reasons: 1 - We have recently been strongly reminded of Hermione's insecurity about her own appearance. She ran away sobbing at Snape's cruel remark after her teeth were lengthened by the Densaugeo curse. We will soon discover that she went so far as to trick Madam Pomfrey into changing her teeth. To keep this all fresh in our minds, we have had Pansy's taunts about "Stunningly pretty? Her?" and "chipmunks." 2 - Hermione overreacts. Ron's statement is nothing more than the typical casual boorishness that one might see anywhere from teenaged (and older) males. Fred, for instance, has just said something very similar. Hermione could have handled it with a roll of her eyes and a quick retort that Ron is not such a prize himself. But, instead, she sputters, bristles, and sweeps off. And then, later, she quotes the conversation indignantly to Ron, gleefully revelling in his situation when the first girl he asks turns him down. Such a vehement response to a mild stimulus is *suspicious*. 3 - Hermione's particular situation. Hermione happens to be a girl whose two best friends are both boys. It happens that one of these friends MUST have a date to the Ball, and the other one seems to feel he needs one as well. And yet, neither of these boys has so much as suggested that they might go with their best-friend-who-is-conveniently-a-girl, even just as a friend. She might be pardoned for wondering why not, and if something is wrong with her. I would maintain that young girls who wish to date are almost always maximally anxious about their own appearance on the occasion of their first invitation-dance. I would think this would be magnified if they had recently been the subject of public humiliation about their appearance "flaws." It is worth noting, too, that at this point neither Ron nor Harry has even noticed Hermione's smaller teeth. So, yeah, I think she's reacting personally here. > Likewise, I see a non-SHIP-related explanation for the blush. > > How about this? She's blushing because they're talking about her > dating life. It's personal. It's embarrassing. It touches on > something heretofore secret and rather exciting. Hence, a blush. > Amy > who has the misfortune of being one of those people who blushes at > the drop of a hat Ahhh, but we have reason to believe that Hermione is *not* one of those people. For instance, though she blushed the first time that Ron noticed her crush on Lockhart, the next five times he mentioned it to her, she managed *not* to blush, though she was embarrassed. Hermione does not blush when the first or second Skeeter article comes out, at least not until Snape reads the second one out loud with pauses for uproarious laughter. Harry says "*Even* Hermione was blushing scarlet now" (emphasis mine). Hermione does not blush when they see Krum ()in his swimsuit) diving into the lake and she defends him as "really nice." She does not blush when Krum asks to speak to her alone to say goodbye to her or when they return afterward. She does not blush before the Yule Ball when her secret mystery date is publicly revealed to all. There is no indication that she blushes when the whole school is teasing her about being the thing that Krum would miss most. She does not blush when Harry tells Molly that "Hermione's not my girlfriend." So when Hermione *does* blush, especially when it is described as "so deeply that she was the same color as Parvati's robes" or "Harry could almost feel the heat coming from her," I think we are justified in believing that she is feeling something more interesting than general embarrassment about dating. Angua, who almost never blushes From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 04:01:37 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 04:01:37 -0000 Subject: Further significance of Neville Longbottom In-Reply-To: <6b.7ceb9d4.2b608ca9@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50342 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, baringer2k at a... wrote: > > ...edited... > I believe that the Longbottoms were powerful magic-users, and had > a lot of responsibilities--and from that a lot of notoriety and > maybe even prestige...? > > ..., I have not come across any concrete instances showing Neville > was a great student,... ... ... Could the administration at > Hogwarts be passing him for reasons beyond his academic performance? > Perhaps they are aware of some potential that he has, as yet > untapped? Perhaps they are aware of some strength he has that he's > not aware of? > > I'm curious to see what others think of this. > > Thanks, > Marcus bboy_mn: Overview- I am one of those people who believe Neville is a great and powerful wizard. I once characterized him as a great wizard hidden under a shroud. I think we can expect to see great things from Neville before the end of the series. Sadly, I also fear that he may die in a heroic act. Grades- Neville excels in Herbology. That excellent grade is usually what offsets his horrible grade in Potions. A significant portion of Nevilles bad potion grade is Snape's fault. Neville could do much better if Snape actually made an effort to help him. As far as his other classes, he is at least adequate. We have heard MeGonagall comment on his poor performance in Transfigurations. But we have also seen him excel under Remus Lupin's guidance. So for most classes in general, he is adequate. But let's remember that grades aren't alway the most accurate measure of a man. There is one guy I went to school with (1 yr behind me). His grades were terrible even when he tried, which he didn't do very often. I guess we could have voted him 'most likely to be mediocre'; 'most likely to be small town ordinary'. Today he is a mutli-millionaire. So don't judge Neville by his classroom performance alone. The Administration- I think Dumbledore knows details of Neville's life that even Neville doesn't know. Just like he know things about Harry that he hasn't told him yet. So yes, I think the administration is making some concession because they know that there is something going on that is preventing Neville from reaching his full potential. Just like Dumbledore believes that, in time ,Harry will come into his own; reach his full potential. He believes that, in time, Neville will reach his. I also, believe that whatever is bothering Neville is somehow related to Harry. Some think that during the 'missing 24 hours', Hagrid kept Harry at Neville's house and Neville's parents looked after him. That same theory, also says that's why the Lestrange's tortured Neville's parents. Since Harry had been with them, they thought the Longbottoms had inside information on what happened to Voldemort. Again, that's just one theory. Regardless of all the possible theories, I believe Neville and Harry's lives are connected in the past, and that they are both much more powerful wizards than they realize. Neville's Problem- Many theories here, but most of them are founded in the belief that something or someone is supressing Neville. Some believe he was there when his parent were tortured. Remember that the torture occurred sometime later, so Neville and Harry would have been closer to two years old. Some think Neville witnessed it, other believe Neville himself was tortured in an effort to get the Longbottoms to reveal what they knew. Sadly, they couldn't tell because they really didn't know anything. One possiblility is that this trama is so intense and so stressful, that it takes everything Neville has to keep it suppressed, and that's why he is bumbling all the time. That, subconciously, he lives with the constant fear that he will remember and relive these events. Other believe that same events occurred but afterwards, Neville was put under a memory charm to prevent him from having to live with those painful memories. Remember the many instances in the series of people being put under memory charms. It alway has short term effect on their general memory and intellect, and sometime has long lasting side effects. One way or another, whatever happened to Neville is being suppressed whether by his own subconcious, or by outside influences. Neville will come into his own as a great wizard when that barrier between his subconcious memories and his concious life is broken. Some people point to the fact that Neville is alway melting cauldrons as an indication of his true strength. The cauldron aren't melting because of a chemical reaction in his potion. If that were true more people would be melting cauldron. The theorys is that Neville's unfocused uncontrolled magic is melting the cauldron when he is under extreme stress, the same way Harry turned his teacher's hair blue, and blew up his Aunt Marge. It is a sudden outpouring of magical power, forces out by extreme stress. I think I agree on the cauldrons. If it was that easy to make a minor mistake and create a chemical reation that could melt a cauldron, a lot more people would be melting them. I think there are many variation to this theme, but the all seem to be based in something or someone blocking Neville's true power. Only the hows and whos and whys vary. Just some thoughts. bboy_mn From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 04:04:02 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:04:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Translations (WAS Re: Why so much waiting?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030123040402.93367.qmail@web40509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50343 Jim Ferer wrote to Moonless Have you read each book in English *and* Spanish? If so, a lot of us would be interested in your opinion whether the Spanish version captures the feel of the English one, or if there are any interesting differences. Now me: I'm not entirely sure it's OK to discuss this on this list, but I do want to elaborate on Jim's question. Did *anybody* who had read the books in English and another language feel that the translation was good not only in the 'good writing' sense, but done thoughfully, with the knowledge that the books would get more and more elaborate over time, and that all clues must be preserved? I read all the books in English, however, my first encounter with HP (PS, CoS and PoA) was in Russian. I've never read GoF in Russian, nor do I have a particular wish to. The Russian translation is good enough for children, I suppose. The translation is quite liberal, with some remarks added in (usually by one of the Dursleys) that never appeared in English. Sometimes I still get confused when I remember something from a Russian translation, but assume I read it in English, but when I look for the phrase in the English book, it's not there! Very annoying. But, although it would be impossible to participate in a group like this not having read the books in English, they are good enough in Russian to keep your interest. Many names were actually translated into Russian, so you'd be able to understand what they mean. But, surprisingly, the wrong names have been translated. Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw are sporting their Russian variations of the names, but Slytherin, which, I'd say, is more important for the story, just stays the same. Dumbledore is Dumbledore, and Remus Lupin in Remus Lupin. I thought it was rather indecent not to translate the name Remus into what it's supposed to sound like in Russian - Rem. (I still can't forgive myself for missing such obvious clues - OK, I didn't know that the Roman guy who was raised by a she-wolf was called Remus in English, but not realizing what his *last name* meant! I *knew* that 'lupus' means 'wolf'... well, whatever, never mind my rant). What really annoyed me, though, was the poor quality of the writing itself. It *was not* an example of good-quality Russian language (I never thought I'd apply the word good-quality to literature ). It was really rather sad to see a book written in such good English language translated into a messy, obviously very quickly done book in Russian. I know Snuffles reads HP in other languages, and I'm sure many others do, too. So, tell me - is it just the Russian translation, or are many of them bad? Maria, who has a cold and wonders if she is complaining too much. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From golden_faile at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 04:06:20 2003 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:06:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron in Cos (was Ron and the Trouble with Veela) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030123040620.53596.qmail@web41101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50344 "ssk7882 " wrote: > I see signs of Ron taking some romantic interest in Hermione as early as CoS. I don't see any signs of Harry taking the same sort of interest in a girl until PoA. Okay, without turning this into a SHIP war( I will take no responsibility, as I have posted the disclaimer!). I was wondering, where in COS do we see evidence of Ron having an interest in Hermione? I have seen this statement, while reading over posts, several times and was just curious.Are you talking about the part in the hospital wing when she is petrified and he was upset? I think I may have missed something subtle. I personally didn't see evidence until POA, after she left Trelawny's class and after she slapped Malfoy. Laila --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From golden_faile at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 04:24:12 2003 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:24:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Going down with the SHIP In-Reply-To: <008a01c2c289$e86de720$0100a8c0@xyrael> Message-ID: <20030123042412.3091.qmail@web41105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50345 Scott Northrup wrote: So today, while reading the many e-mails regarding SHIPs (always entertaining, to say the least), my mind wandered over to the two HP movies, particularly CoS. I thought to myself (and not for the first time, actually), "The movies seem to be setting up a Harry/Hermione romance!" Certainly, some people would argue against this thought, but I'm just relating my impression to y'all. Now, here comes my blasphemy. If JKR is setting up a Ron/Hermione romance for the future books, why do the movies, which she certainly has a hand in, seem to be setting up a Harry/Hermione relationship? I will not claim that the movie does no such thing, I too, had the same thought when I saw the films. However, my kids seemed to see differently. My daughter and my 11 year old son thinks that Hermione likes Ron because of the way that she is with him, and interestingly enough so do a few of the other people that I saw the movie with (that have not actually read the books). I was leaving the theater grumbling about them making it so H/H. My cousin who was with me at the time, along with my sis-in-law,thought that I was insane. they said that it was obvious in the ending scene, with that awkward handshake that she was too shy(for lack of a better word) to hug Ron. Supposedly this meant that she liked him. they said that she was too comfortable with Harry, just as you should be with a good friend. She is unsure of herself with Ron,like you would be with a first crush. I was shocked I hadn't thought about it this way *shrug*. They gave me a whole new outlook on things. Laila --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pennylin at swbell.net Thu Jan 23 04:33:35 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 22:33:35 -0600 Subject: SHIP: The Yule Brawl--The Problem With Reading R/H in GoF References: Message-ID: <034901c2c298$97d56f40$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 50346 Hi -- Re, Hermione sputtering in indignation at Ron's churlish "trolls" comment, Angua argued: <<<>>>>>> Again, I agree with Amy here. This is Hermione responding to a sexist remark, and I've never seen anything personal in that scene at all. So, you think if *Harry* had made that remark, Hermione wouldn't have reacted? I think she would have. I originally said: <<<<>>>> Angua again: <<<>>>>>>> Angua! Harry has not said anything at all. Why would Hermione bring him into the conversation? She correctly observes that it is *Ron* who has just made the sexist remark. This is not at all equivalent to both of them slouching on their study habits or both wanting to play Quidditch to release tension. The situations are not even remotely equivalent. In your examples, *both* boys have behaved like teenage boys. In this case, why in the world would she insult poor Harry, who, for all we know, may agree far more with Hermione than with Ron on this point? He has expressed absolutely no agreement with Ron, nor given any indication of assent or affirmation. Angua: <<>>>>>>> I really, really think this boils down to Hermione reacting in a feminist way to Ron's sexist remark. And, I don't think one would need to be "militantly feminist" to find his remark offensive. I also don't think she's feeling anxiety of whether Ron or Harry finds her attractive or not. Again, for all we know, she may already have her A-list date anyway, in which case, her self-esteem is likely in fine shape. >Angua again: <<<<>>>> Yes, she *is* Ron-centered in this scene, but I don't think it's for the reasons you think. I think she's amused no end that Mr. High-and-Mighty, I-don't-want-a-'Troll'-for-a-date!Ron is dateless. At this point, she definitely has her date. Hermione's taunts do *not* apply to Harry. They specifically hearken back to *Ron's* churlish comments about trolls and going with the best-looking girl who'd have him. Angua on the meaning behind Hermione's blushes: <<<>>>>> No, it's because she *knows* Ron likes her. If she likes him back, then the blushes are explained as you would argue. If she doesn't, then she is blushing because she knows that Ron likes her and it makes the situation uncomfortable. She knows at some point, she'll have to deal with hurting one of her best friends. I said: > I know the R/H fans think there is all this wonderful bantering R/H interaction happening off-page, but there's no canon on that. Angua again: <<<>>>>> LOL! Well, like Laura, I'm afraid you might want to point up some of that witty banter for me, because I sure don't see it that way. Looks like either petty bickering or out-and-out going-for-the-jugular arguing to me. Angua again: <<<<<<<>>>>>>>>> No, you misunderstand me. Ron's comments are two-fold: (a) you aren't worth dating in your own right, and (b) you're being disloyal to Harry by dating Krum anyway. It's (b) that causes her hurt, IMO. And, that could be because it's Harry she really cares for. Angua again: <<<>>>>>>>>> That's still disloyalty in my book. But, it's also telling that Ron is hitting at one of her biggest worries, isn't it? Harry's safety. Um, hmmmmmmmm.......... <<<<>>>>>>>>>> She wasn't "hurt" in any of those cases. She was indignant and angry over the trolls comment, waspishly sarcastic over the "you are a girl" comment (a line that's among my favorites in fact) and *angry* (eyes flashing dangerously) over the "lying to Neville to get rid of him" comment. There's no *hurt* here. None. <<<<<<<>>>>>>> I, OTOH, think it's speculative at best. I said: > No, the *point* is that Ron has a crush on Hermione. Hermione now knows this. Whether she reciprocates that feeling is not clear. This is December. If she *knows* he has a crush on her *and* she reciprocates it, why doesn't she stop spending time with Krum and focus on trying to get Ron to grow up and face his feelings? She goes from at least January - June (6 mths), knowing full well that her love interest likes her back ...... and she does nothing to encourage him to get a move on? :::remembers being 14/15 and is confused by this scenario:::::::::: Angua again: <<< And, possibly Hermione *does* stop spending time with Krum -- we don't know. We don't *see* her choosing to be alone with Krum any more, except briefly to say goodbye. She is not very encouraging to him at the Second Task.>>>>>>>> He was encouraged enough to ask her to spend some time over the summer with him in Bulgaria. :--) But, you're right, she wasn't terribly encouraging, was she? She was too busy cheering for Harry to notice him in fact. <<<<>>>>>> He's worried because "Hermy-own-ninny" talks about *HARRY* very often. We don't see Krum giving Ron a second glance, do we? I don't find it too ironic that Krum was jealous of Harry if Hermione is talking about Harry all the time (and not Ron). Seems pretty straight-forward to me. Angua again: <<<<>>>>>>>>> Sure it would. If Hermoine likes Harry, then the implication is that she doesn't like Ron. In any case, JKR *could* have given a straight-forward answer, *if* she viewed this as "obvious" or "straight-forward." It would have been quite easy for her to say, "Yes, she does. The answer is right there in Goblet of Fire." But, she *didn't.* She had the perfect opportunity to put the whole matter to rest, and she didn't. Simple as that. Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From snorth at ucla.edu Thu Jan 23 04:37:30 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:37:30 -0800 Subject: Going down with the SHIP References: <20030123042412.3091.qmail@web41105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001e01c2c299$291a00b0$0100a8c0@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 50347 Laila: they said that it was obvious in the ending scene, with that awkward handshake that she was too shy(for lack of a better word) to hug Ron. Supposedly this meant that she liked him. they said that she was too comfortable with Harry, just as you should be with a good friend. She is unsure of herself with Ron,like you would be with a first crush. I was shocked I hadn't thought about it this way *shrug*. They gave me a whole new outlook on things. Me: See, I thought of that, but I'm still not so sure. Maybe if they hadn't given it so much of a 'running through the flowers in slow motion' (yes, I know it wasn't in slo-mo) feel, I would think differently. I suppose there's not much point in discussing it; it'll end up like every other piece of canon evidence related to shipping ("It means she likes him! " "No, it means she thinks he's a twit!"). -Scott From fausts at attglobal.net Thu Jan 23 04:37:58 2003 From: fausts at attglobal.net (anguaorc ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 04:37:58 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ron and Hermione do TOO banter! In-Reply-To: <004301c2c27e$f6d642e0$3301a8c0@huntleyl> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50348 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Laura Ingalls Huntley" wrote: > But she's attacking Ron for his ghastly remark. Harry didn't do anything > wrong, why should she turn on him as well? She would not necessarily be attacking Harry -- she could be encouraging him to disassociate himself from Ron's remark (which included him). If she were truly anxious about Harry's opinion on such matters, she could have gotten it at that point without necessarily "turning on" him. > I agree with your point here. There are few instances that might be > construed as *solid* support for H/H. However, I see very little instances > that give concrete support for Hr ---> R, either. As far as I can tell, the > only thing we can be sure of is that Ron Likes Hermione. A lot. We don't > know if she returns his feelings -- and as far as I've seen, R/Hers have yet > to come up with anything but shaky (at best) conjectures and hypothesis > about what she might be feeling in certain circumstances. One thing that is clear, though: there are very few "missed opportunities" with R/H. Ron has a crush on Fleur -- we look to see if Hermione betrays jealousy, and -- sure enough -- there are signs that can easily be read that way. Ron goes to the Yule Ball with Padma -- does Hermione have a problem with that? Well, we don't see anything at first, but then there is the incident when Ron is bragging to Padma (who is suddenly a lot more interested in him) after the Second Task, and Hermione rudely shuts him up. Ron makes insensitive remarks about dating pretty girls -- does Hermione mind? Yes, very much. Ron makes an incredibly tactless remark, "You *are* a girl!" -- and what does Hermione do? She says, "Just because YOU haven't spotted I'm a girl, Ron, doesn't mean nobody else has!" I'm really hard-put to think of a time when Hermione COULD have betrayed interest in Ron, and failed to. When he went into the Veela trance -- "Honestly" both times, with tutting and arm pulling. When he was in danger from the Second Task -- "I was so busy seeing if you and Harry were okay..." When Harry asked her if she wouldn't rather go to Hogsmeade with Ron - - she blushed. When Ron's mother snubbed her -- she was hurt, but didn't say anything. When Ron calls her a "scarlet woman" -- she giggled. When she heard that he had asked out another girl -- she was very angry and taunted him. With R/H, we see opportunities taken and romantic expectations fulfilled. With H/H, we see (much better) opportunities completely missed and romantic expectations left empty and flapping. > Do you think that she would have let Harry get away with saying what Ron > said? I really can't even begin to imagine that -- it would be totally > uncharacteristic of her. I certainly don't think she would have looked as if he had slapped her and spoken with a quivering voice, or blushed so deeply that she was the same color as Parvati's robes, or stormed off. We've certainly never *seen* Hermione respond to Harry like that. > > Angua again: > > No -- we think that there is all this wonderful bantering R/H > > interaction happening ON-PAGE. Well, we think it probably happens > > off-page as well (because why wouldn't it?) but what we see right > > there in canon is plenty enough to stoke our engines. They banter > > beautifully, especially considering their young age. > > Banter? *Banter*?! Calling what Hermione and Ron do "banter" is an insult > to a very fine art. They bicker. They out-and-out fight. They insult one > another. They do not banter. To banter is to tease. To make witty > semi-clawed comments. To engage in playful mock-sparring. They do nothing > of the sort. Occasionally Ron will say something mean-but-humorous that is > meant to rile her (which can be a lead-in to banter), but I cannot recall > Hermione reacting with anything but irritation or anger (again, not > bantering) -- she does not play back. Mostly, however, he's just being > cluelessly insensitive. Oh, I SO disagree, and I don't know any way to argue this except quotation. Here are some examples of what I consider to be successful, two-sided bantering (sorry about length! -- but this is probably the main reason we R/Hers so love our ship): Here's one where Ron feeds Hermione the straight line: "And you could ask your parents if they know who Flamel is," said Ron. "It'd be safe to ask them." "Very safe, as they're both dentists," said Hermione. Here's one where they do a quick-fire Pat and Mike routine: Speaking quietly so tht no one else would hear, Harry told the other two about Snape's sudden, sinister desire to be a Quidditch referee. "Don't play," said Hermione at once. "Say you're ill," said Ron. "Pretend to break your leg," Hermione suggested. "Really break your leg," said Ron. Here's one where Hermione feeds Ron the straight line: "So you mean the Stone's only safe as long as Quirrell stands up to Snape?" said Hermione in alarm? "It'll be gone by next Tuesday," said Ron. All of the above were from PS/SS. Here is one from CoS, where Ron "wins" again: Most Potente Potions?" she repeated suspiciously, trying to take the note from Hermione; but Hermione wouldn't let go. "I was wondering if I could keep it," she said breathlessly. "Oh, come on," said Ron, wrenching it from her grasp and thrusting it at Madam Pince. "We'll get you another autograph. Lockhart'll sign anything if it stands still long enough." >From PoA: "No," said Hermione shortly. "Have either of you seen my copy of Numerology and Gramatica?" "Oh, yeah, I borrowed it for a bit of bedtime reading," said Ron, but very quietly. And one where Hermione gets the funny line: "I went to see Professor McGonagall this morning, just before breakfast. I've decided to drop Muggle Studies." "But you passed your exam with three hundred and twenty percent!" said Ron. "I know," sighed Hermione, "but I can't stand another year like this one...." "...Yeah, I've been thinking about them too," said Ron. "Harry, you've got to come and stay with us. I'll fix it up with Mum and Dad, then I'll call you. I know how to use the fellytone now --" "A telephone, Ron," said Hermione. "Honestly, *you* should take Muggle Studies next year...." In GoF, there are so many it's hard to choose. Here are a few of my favorites: "Come off it," said Ron, starting to laugh. "Durmstrang's got to be about the same size as Hogwarts -- how are you going to hide a great big castle?" "But Hogwarts is hidden," said Hermione, in surprise. "Everyone knows that... well, everyone who's read Hogwarts, A History, anyway." "Just you, then," said Ron. "You're eating again, I notice," said Ron, watching Hermione adding liberal amounts of jam to her toast too. "I've decided there are better ways of making a stand about elf rights," said Hermione haughtily. "Yeah... and you were hungry," said Ron, grinning. Here's a nice one: "Well, at least the skrewts are small," said Ron as they made their way back up to the castle for lunch an hour later. "They are now," said Hermione in an exasperated voice, "but once Hagrid's found out what they eat, I expect they'll be six feet long." "Well, that won't matter if they turn out to cure seasickness or something, will it?" said Ron, grinning slyly at her. "You know perfectly well I only said that to shut Malfoy up," said Hermione. "As a matter of fact I think he's right. The best thing to do would be to stamp on the lot of them before they start attacking us all." Ah, I'm having to leave such good ones out -- there are too many. The bouncing ferret one, the Cedric/Lockhart one... But I can't leave this one out: "Hello," she said, "I've just finished!" "So have I!" said Ron triumphantly, throwing down his quill. Hermione sat down, laid the things she was carrying in an empty armchair, and pulled Ron's predictions toward her. "Not going to have a very good month, are you?" she said sardonically as Crookshanks curled up in her lap. "Ah well, at least I'm forewarned," Ron yawned. "You seem to be drowning twice," said Hermione. "Oh am I?" said Ron, peering down at his predictions. "I'd better change one of them to getting trampled by a rampaging hippogriff." "Don't you think it's a bit obvious you've made these up?" said Hermione. "How dare you! said Ron, in mock outrage. "We've been working like house-elves here!" Hermione raised her eyebrows. "It's just an expression!" said Ron hastily. That is some top-quality bantering there! Notice how they've improved in both quality and length since the first book? For only fourteen, especially. And, look, it continues: "Not spew," said Hermione impatiently. "It's S-P-E-W. Stands for the Society for the Protection of Elvish Welfare." "Never heard of it," siad Ron. "Well, of course you haven't," said Hermione briskly, "I've only just started it." "Yeah?" said Ron in mild surprise. "How many members have you got?" "Well -- if you two join -- three," said Hermione. "And you think we want to walk around wearing badges saying 'spew,' do you?" said Ron. If JKR intends Hermione to end up with Harry, she should NOT be giving her this kind of chemistry with Ron. Listen to the timing on this one: "What's that?" said Ron, pointing at a large dish of some sort of shellfish stew that stood beside a large steak-and-kidney pudding. "Bouillabaisse," said Hermione. "Bless you," said Ron. "It's French," said Hermione. "I had it on holiday summer before last. It's very nice." "I'll take your word for it," said Ron, helping himself to black pudding. Here's one where Hermione gets the last word: "But I had my wand hidden up my sleeve," he assured Padma Patil, who seemed to be a lot keener on Ron now that he was getting so much attention and was making a point of talking to him every time they passed in the corridors. "I could've taken those mer-idiots any time I wanted." "What were you going to do, snore at them?" said Hermione waspishly. And one for Ron: "Aren't you two ever going to read Hogwarts, A History?" "What's the point?" said Ron. "You know it by heart, we can just ask you." And another one for Hermione: You can't Disapparate on the Hogwarts grounds, haven't I told you enough times?" said Hermione. "Okay... how's this for a theory," said Ron excitedly. "Krum attacked Crouch -- no, wait for it -- and then Stunned himself!" "And Mr. Crouch evaporated, did he?" said Hermione coldly. "Oh yeah..." There are more, but obviously this post is way too long already. Angua From pennylin at swbell.net Thu Jan 23 04:40:26 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 22:40:26 -0600 Subject: ADMIN: Movie Discussions to the Movie List Message-ID: <035801c2c299$8ce1ac60$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 50349 Hi all -- Please remember that Movie discussions belong on our Movie list, not on this main list. The Movie list can be found: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Movie/ Thanks, Penny for the Mods From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 04:48:11 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 04:48:11 -0000 Subject: Ron and the Trouble with Veela In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50350 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ladyofmisrule2000 " wrote: > Hi, all! > > Does anyone have any theories as to why Ron seems to be affected > to a greater extent by the veela than Harry is? > > ...edited... > > Is there some character trait that makes some more resilient to the > veela than others? > > Sincerely, > Lori bboy_mn: Others have given very good replies to this question, and I'm not going to try to subtract or discredit their input, because for the most part I agree, but I do want to add one more thing. I think it is a very valid point, but perhaps only a minor point. Ron has grown up in a big loving outgoing expressive family, so Ron doesn't hold back. He's not guarded in this emotions or his speech (withing reasonable limits). When you grow up in a large outgoing house like the Weasley house you learn to speak loud and fast, if you want your voice to be heard. Also, Molly is very simpathetic, while she may seem a firm disciplinarian, she is also loving, inviting, and comforting. I'm sure as is reflected in Ron's short fuse, Ron has never felt like he couldn't speak his mind around the Weasley house. So we have keyword here; outgoing, expressive, and spontaneous. Ron has never had reason to be reserved in this thought, speech, or emotions. As soon as he feels it or thinks it; it comes out. He's, to some extent, uninhibited. Harry, on the other hand, has always live in an environment that oppressed him, suppressed him, and inhibited him. He needs to think before he reacts. He needs to weigh the risk. Sort out the danger. Because every minute of his life was lived with an axe hanging over his head, ready to fall at the slightest miscalculation. Harry is very guarded. He's emotionally defensive in his interaction with others. He really only has two friends. In them, he's found his comfort zone. He has his nice contained controlled predictable little world (regarding his friends). A popular and famous guy like Harry could have a lot more friends. Friends from every house that he could hang out with, but a life that complex has too many variables, too hard to control, too hard to predict. So he keeps his social life simple. Keywords; inhibited, guarded, contained, defensive, insecure, withdrawn. Ron let's it out freely and quickly. Harry holds it in until he has had time to assess the risk which doesn't make him very spontaneous. That's not the whole picture, but I'm sure as far as social interaction, that's part of why Harry isn't affected by Fleur. Not to say he isn't affected at all, however. Whenever she is mentioned in Harry's narration, he always mentions some attractive aspect of her. The way her hair flows, or the way she brushes it back over her shoulder. And there are hints from Harry's perpective as narrator, that indicate a lot of other guys are very attacted to Fleur. Since her charms are magical, it's probably difficult for any man or boy not to be affected by them. All the boys feel it, but not all of then are uninhibited enough to respond to what they feel. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From golden_faile at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 04:51:18 2003 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:51:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR's marriage (some SHIP) In-Reply-To: <031901c2c291$ee5576a0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: <20030123045118.12151.qmail@web41108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50351 Penny Linsenmayer wrote: Hi -- cmsore wrote: <<<>>> I agree. I don't think she is modeling Ron on her ex-husband, and I agree that Ron is intended to be a positive character (whether *I* view him that way or not). But, the relationship between Ron and Hermione may bear some similarities to her first marriage, and if so, it might not bode well for long-term R/H. It would depend on whether she thinks *some* tempestuous relationships can be affirming and positive for both parties, and we don't know what she thinks at this point. I happen to think(for what it's worth)that Ron is attracted to Hermione because she is strong willed like his mother. Look at his parents relationship. Wouldn't it follow that Hermione is the type of girl that he would go for? Even if he is too dimwitted to realize it until late(lol). I see no evidence of Ron being abusive in the future, I think that he is the average 14 year old boy. Yes, he's got some insecurities, but didn't we all at 14? I think that he is still growing and developing, he's healthy. Harry on the other hand, worries me. He doesn't express enough(yes I know this is a side effect from being locked in the closet)and I really wonder at his ability to have a lasting relationship at all. Ron and Hermione,come from two healthy families which in some ways will make it easier for them to relate to one another, even with all of the bickering(come on folks, a little bickering is healthy). I think that Harry, with saving the WW and all, will have little or no time for any relationship. Good gracious, you would think that I'm a R/H shipper(LOL). Really I'm not! I have no opinion one way or the other, whatever Jo wants to do is fine with me( so long as I get to read about my favorite characters). I just felt that someone should stand up for Ron(he has taken a beating lately),I like Ron! This wasn't intended to be a rant, but it seems to have taken that tone. I don't intend to offend, just offering my opinion. Laila [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From golden_faile at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 04:55:17 2003 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:55:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: Going down with the SHIP In-Reply-To: <001e01c2c299$291a00b0$0100a8c0@xyrael> Message-ID: <20030123045517.8390.qmail@web41105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50352 Scott Northrup wrote: Laila: they said that it was obvious in the ending scene, with that awkward handshake that she was too shy(for lack of a better word) to hug Ron. Supposedly this meant that she liked him. they said that she was too comfortable with Harry, just as you should be with a good friend. She is unsure of herself with Ron,like you would be with a first crush. I was shocked I hadn't thought about it this way *shrug*. They gave me a whole new outlook on things. Me: See, I thought of that, but I'm still not so sure. Maybe if they hadn't given it so much of a 'running through the flowers in slow motion' (yes, I know it wasn't in slo-mo) feel, I would think differently. I suppose there's not much point in discussing it; it'll end up like every other piece of canon evidence related to shipping ("It means she likes him! " "No, it means she thinks he's a twit!"). LOL!! I'm just as confused! I try to go by what I think I see in the book. Then someone else comes up with a different arguement, then someone else see's it another way. I guess it will just have to be one of those wait and see things! Laila Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From golden_faile at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 05:08:19 2003 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden_faile ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 05:08:19 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Movie Discussions to the Movie List In-Reply-To: <035801c2c299$8ce1ac60$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50353 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Penny Linsenmayer wrote: > Hi all -- > > Please remember that Movie discussions belong on our Movie list, not on this > main list. The Movie list can be found: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Movie/ > > Thanks, > > Penny > for the Mods Sorry Penny! I know sorry doesn't help after the fact, but I respond to so few posts that I tend to jump in with both feet when I finally do! Laila From suzloua at hotmail.com Thu Jan 23 05:12:35 2003 From: suzloua at hotmail.com (Susan Atherton) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 05:12:35 -0000 Subject: Going down with the SHIP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50354 Laila: they said that it was obvious in the ending scene, with that awkward handshake that she was too shy(for lack of a better word) to hug Ron. Supposedly this meant that she liked him. they said that she was too comfortable with Harry, just as you should be with a good friend. She is unsure of herself with Ron,like you would be with a first crush. I was shocked I hadn't thought about it this way *shrug*. They gave me a whole new outlook on things. Scott: See, I thought of that, but I'm still not so sure. Maybe if they hadn't given it so much of a 'running through the flowers in slow motion' (yes, I know it wasn't in slo-mo) feel, I would think differently. I suppose there's not much point in discussing it; it'll end up like every other piece of canon evidence related to shipping ("It means she likes him! " "No, it means she thinks he's a twit!"). Now me. When I saw the movie, I had just re-read CoS the previous day to refresh my memory. When I first realised that Ron loves Hermione, it was in GoF with the Yule Ball - these people who say they knew from PoA and even CoS - god you're good!!! So anyway, this was pre-HPfGU for me, pre-any RL friends who also read HP, pre-any intelligent discussion of the books. So when I saw that moment, and I saw the happy hug between H&H, I thought "ahhh, he's happy she's back, that's nice" and then burst out laughing when I saw the awkward handshake, because I then thought "blimey, they're starting early on shipping R/H!" (well, I didn't think shipping, because that word wasn't in my vocab yet, but you know what I mean) I totally thought yes, it's the awkward thing that you pointed out, Laila. Nowhere did I see H/H - even the hospital scene with the hand-stroking I saw as a caring friend thing. Now, in my more analytical, cynical, post-HPfGU days, I see things slightly differently. Hmmmm.... I don't know where the movies are going, but it's very interesting. Sigh - let's just hope they're going somewhere that involves Jeremy Irons for Lupin... The other thing I was going to say is, JKR tells Steve Kloves the stuff - on interviews I've seen with him, he's said she wrote the flashback in PS because only she really knew what we should see. He said she does lead him in the right direction though, as stated previously in this thread. However, the decision to have Hermione run down the hall and hug Harry and not Ron was not a script thing from Kloves, but rather an aesthetic thing from Columbus. In an interview with Emma Watson in some back issue of Empire magazine, she said something about being very embarrassed about having to hug Dan, because even though she knew Hermione would do it, she still felt embarrassed (fair play, she is only 12 or 13, and at that age I was embarrassed to hug my female friends for fear of being called gay - hmmm, maybe I just didn't have very nice friends...) but Chris insisted. He then also said you don't have to hug Rupert though - all Chris Columbus. He was setting up the R/H to come that we already know about, I believe - although Hermione's reluctance to hug Ron and the look on Emma's face does speak volumes for the Good Ship R/H!! My two Galleons (yes, Galleons - I'm feeling generous) Susan who is thinking maybe she should subscribe to the HPFGU Movie digest too, since she could talk about Alan Rickman and the Ewan and Jeremy rumours til the cows come home ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "Shame on you! Ugly baby judges you!" --Ross Geller "Oh yeah, and did I mention I've got a baby?" --Stuart Alan Jones "You know, I telephoned my grandparents the other day, and my grandfather said to me, 'We saw your movie.' 'Which one?' I said, and he shouted, 'Betty, what was the name of that movie I didn't like?'" --Brad Pitt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Jan 23 05:39:59 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 21:39:59 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: The Yule Brawl--The Problem With Reading R/H in GoF In-Reply-To: <034901c2c298$97d56f40$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> References: <034901c2c298$97d56f40$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: <89218794347.20030122213959@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 50355 Hi, Wednesday, January 22, 2003, 8:33:35 PM, Penny wrote: > No, it's because she *knows* Ron likes her. If she likes him back, > then the blushes are explained as you would argue. If she doesn't, > then she is blushing because she knows that Ron likes her and it makes > the situation uncomfortable. She knows at some point, she'll have to > deal with hurting one of her best friends. Well, she doesn't really seem to have a problem hurting his feeling when she feels it's called for, so why should it be a problem for her to tell him she doesn't want to be his girlfriend? The yelling match after the Yule Ball was the perfect opportunity to let him know what she thinks of him as future boyfriend material. If Hermione really didn't want to leave the door open for Ron to ask her in the future, she'd could have said a dozen different things that didn't include "ask me before someone else does, and not as a last resort". -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From selah_1977 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 06:12:49 2003 From: selah_1977 at yahoo.com (Ebony ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 06:12:49 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ron and Hermione do TOO banter! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50356 First of all, public thanks to Elkins for defending my original essay... you said all the things I was thinking, but far better. And oh, if I could only get paid to debate SHIP all day... --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "anguaorc " wrote: > One thing that is clear, though: there are very few "missed > opportunities" with R/H. None of the opportunities you cite below can be construed as specifically R/H. > Ron has a crush on Fleur -- we look to see if Hermione betrays > jealousy, and -- sure enough -- there are signs that can easily be > read that way. Here we go with that semi-colon stuff again. And you know our take on it... Fleur kissed Harry too, so we just don't know. > Ron goes to the Yule Ball with Padma -- does Hermione have a problem > with that? Well, we don't see anything at first, but then there is > the incident when Ron is bragging to Padma (who is suddenly a lot > more interested in him) after the Second Task, and Hermione rudely > shuts him up. > How is this R/H? I think if anything, it is Ron likes Hermione, which is something that the sane members of our side conceded in July 2000. Because if you get to mark that passage as Ron/Hermione, I get to mark the Honeydukes in December of PoA as H/H, because Harry shuts up Hermione's page and a half of arguments about why he shouldn't be at Hogsmeade with a single question and grin. As I doubt that the R/H ship would accept any such reading, then a ship-specific interpretation upon such vaguely dubious grounds cannot be used in serious debate. > Ron makes insensitive remarks about dating pretty girls -- does > Hermione mind? Yes, very much. Evidence, please? I just don't see this in canon. > Ron makes an incredibly tactless remark, "You *are* a girl!" -- and > what does Hermione do? She says, "Just because YOU haven't spotted > I'm a girl, Ron, doesn't mean nobody else has!" > > I'm really hard-put to think of a time when Hermione COULD have > betrayed interest in Ron, and failed to. Re-read my essay. If Hermione reciprocates Ron's interest as you posit, I am rather surprised that the text itself is so very ambiguous... a flaw that I expect will be corrected in OotP. > When he went into the Veela > trance -- "Honestly" both times, with tutting and arm pulling. What Veela trance? Quote, please. I distinctly remember Hermione pulling Harry's arm, but I admit freely that I am an incorrigible shipper and have a very selective memory. > When he was in danger from the Second Task -- "I was so busy seeing > if you and Harry were okay..." That is Hermione's later memory of the event when she and Ron are discussing the Skeeter article, an event that we fortunately saw played out on the page in detail. (Everyone else, please look at my essay. I gave you the full quote for a reason--one absolutely cannot examine isolated instances in the text without considering their textuality. This is why religious sects have been founded on isolated verses of Scripture!) I've already given you my reading of that scene in "Padfoot Returns". Tomorrow after work (since it is 1 a.m. here and I've got some reading for grad class to do before sleeping), I can give the H/H reading of what happens at the end of the Second Task, for your dissection. That is, if someone doesn't do it for me first. :) Anyway, it's a shortcut to say "you and Harry", as she was talking to Ron and Harry hadn't said anything. > When Harry asked her if she wouldn't rather go to Hogsmeade with Ron - > - she blushed. Are you sure she's blushing because she's being asked about Ron, or because Harry's implying that she's showing a difference between the two friends by spending a great deal of her time (that we see *in the text* with Harry? ;-) > When Ron's mother snubbed her -- she was hurt, but didn't say > anything. And exactly what is a 14 year old girl, one who is usually respectful towards adults, to say regarding the inane foolishness of a grown woman? > When Ron calls her a "scarlet woman" -- she giggled. Won't even deal with this one. It's in my original essay. > When she heard that he had asked out another girl -- she was very > angry and taunted him. See above. My reading is in the original essay I posted, with context and full citations. > With R/H, we see opportunities taken and romantic expectations > fulfilled. With H/H, we see (much better) opportunities completely > missed and romantic expectations left empty and flapping. But you haven't proven your point with textual evidence. At all. > I certainly don't think she would have looked as if he had slapped > her and spoken with a quivering voice, or blushed so deeply that she > was the same color as Parvati's robes, or stormed off. We've > certainly never *seen* Hermione respond to Harry like that. Has Harry ever given her a reason? And all this was addressed in my original essay. Getting very circular now, isn't it? On to the example of on-page banter: > "And you could ask your parents if they know who Flamel is," said > Ron. "It'd be safe to ask them." > > "Very safe, as they're both dentists," said Hermione. That's an R/H moment? *laughs* First of all, they're eleven. Second of all, I think it's more indicative that Hermione has a sense of humor than anything else... up until then in PS/SS, we hadn't seen that side of her... she was the bossy, no-nonsense one with a sense of playing by the rules. If that's what you call banter, I can find H/H banter in that book as well. ("I could sing!" "Don't." She laughs.) More "banter": > Speaking quietly so tht no one else would hear, Harry told the other > two about Snape's sudden, sinister desire to be a Quidditch referee. > > "Don't play," said Hermione at once. > > "Say you're ill," said Ron. > > "Pretend to break your leg," Hermione suggested. > > "Really break your leg," said Ron. As with above, that isn't an R/H conversation that Harry happens to overhear. That's Ron and Hermione, being the angel and devil on Harry's shoulders. Isn't platonic friendship grand? More: > "So you mean the Stone's only safe as long as Quirrell stands up to > Snape?" said Hermione in alarm? > > "It'll be gone by next Tuesday," said Ron. > This is banter? Okay. Then this means I get to take any old H/H exchange, and call it banter? Cool! No one's ever allowed me such latitude in these things before! Next: > All of the above were from PS/SS. Here is one from CoS, where > Ron "wins" again: > > Most Potente Potions?" she repeated suspiciously, trying to take the > note from Hermione; but Hermione wouldn't let go. > > "I was wondering if I could keep it," she said breathlessly. > > "Oh, come on," said Ron, wrenching it from her grasp and thrusting it > at Madam Pince. "We'll get you another autograph. Lockhart'll sign > anything if it stands still long enough." Oh, come on! Be serious, please... this is indicative of Hermione's crush on Lockhart. Where is the R/H banter here? > From PoA: > > "No," said Hermione shortly. "Have either of you seen my copy of > Numerology and Gramatica?" > > "Oh, yeah, I borrowed it for a bit of bedtime reading," said Ron, but > very quietly. Ron joking a bit at Hermione. That's throughout. It also doesn't tell us anything new... does Hermione say anything back? What's her reaction to this? That is what I'm most interested in. > And one where Hermione gets the funny line: > > "I went to see Professor McGonagall this morning, just before > breakfast. I've decided to drop Muggle Studies." > > "But you passed your exam with three hundred and twenty percent!" > said Ron. > > "I know," sighed Hermione, "but I can't stand another year like this > one...." > > "...Yeah, I've been thinking about them too," said Ron. "Harry, > you've got to come and stay with us. I'll fix it up with Mum and Dad, > then I'll call you. I know how to use the fellytone now --" > > "A telephone, Ron," said Hermione. "Honestly, *you* should take > Muggle Studies next year...." Is this pre-romantic "banter" or two friends chatting? You're almost making me want to look up a good literary definition of "banter"... almost. As I think there is nothing romantic in any of the above on Hermione's part, I'm comfortable with not revising or defending my originally position further. I'll concede your GoF quotes as banter of a sort--witty repartee. However, I do not believe they are indicative of romantic interest on Hermione's part, and for most of the book, not necessarily on Ron's either. Their friendship is four year old now, they've gone through a lot together, and of course Ron and Hermione discourse more-- Harry's the quiet one. > If JKR intends Hermione to end up with Harry, she should NOT be > giving her this kind of chemistry with Ron. And if JKR intends Hermione to end up with Ron, I want OotP to address many if not all of the points I raised in my essay. Ron's got great moments, I agree, but the disquiet that some of us feel when it comes to him needs to be addressed. However, I doubt that she will address the issues that I brought up. I'm no fool; ever since reading GoF I've predicted that Ron and Hermione will date in future books. If I were a betting woman, my money would be on R/H... I also predict that's exactly when all the trouble will begin. --Ebony, trying to catch up in the middle of a busy RL week From meckelburg at foni.net Thu Jan 23 06:53:42 2003 From: meckelburg at foni.net (Mecki ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 06:53:42 -0000 Subject: Translations (WAS Re: Why so much waiting?) In-Reply-To: <20030123040402.93367.qmail@web40509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50357 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Maria Kirilenko wrote: > > Did *anybody* who had read the books in English and another language feel that the translation was good not only in the 'good writing' sense, but done thoughfully, with the knowledge that the books would get more and more elaborate over time, and that all clues must be preserved? > I read the first 3 Books in German first, and thought they where quite good CHILDRENS literature, although it's read by adults here too. Then I read GoF in English because I would have to wait 6 weeks until the release of the translation. I reread all four books in English the very next week1 The english books are so much better. The language, the hints and clues, just everything. I tried to compare them directly and found paragraphs missing in the translation, descriptions added and the sentences are shorter, the language seems to fake the kids language,only some expressions are gone over 30 years now :). One example of real plot problems: In the English version in GoF Fleur kisses Harry, then kisses Ron, then Hermione frowns. In the German one only Harry gets the kiss and Hermione frowns then!!! I still can't believe they made those mistakes! The weakest translation is PoA though. It is dull, confusing and the characters of Remus and Serius do not have any depth at all! I just thought the book was boring. In the last interview Carlsen, the german publisher, PROUDLY announced they could have the same translator! All I can say is:shudder!!! I will have to buy the book in both langueages because I want to discuss it with german fans as well. But I really feel it is a waste of money Are other translations better? Mecki From kewiromeo at aol.com Thu Jan 23 08:03:43 2003 From: kewiromeo at aol.com (kewiromeo at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 03:03:43 EST Subject: What will come in book 5ish Message-ID: <130.19f06412.2b60fbdf@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50358 I'm sure this has been said a million times before, but does anyone think that Cedric will come back as a ghost? He had unfinished business, which is why most ghosts hang around. As well, I think that Harry's fan will be Mr. Diggory. I believe the Diggorys truly believe what happened and that Harry did all that he could to help. Somewhere I heard that there would be a student teacher. What I think she meant is that someone will come back and teach. Perhaps, Percy will come and be a teacher, I don't see how his career in the ministry is going to last. I don't think that Hedwig will die; However, in recent discussions I believe that a phoenix will seek out Harry. If not, he will rescue one and Hedwig will take a backseat. If not, Hedwig will try and protect Harry. I don't see what you need an owl for in school anyways besides the mail. I don't think I would appreciate being turned into a pumpkin or poisoned. Hagrid on the other hand is going to need some formal magic training. Maybe he wil pick up where he left off? We know he should have started when Harry was in his third year and instead became the teacher. Now, they will need to teach him some things. Petunia is a squib, Dudley will have some magic in him I think. Someone you wouldne suspect will come out. We have also just learned about the Longbottoms. A question I have to ask is, the Death Eaters were searching for L.Voldermort and tortured the Longbottoms, after both elder Potters were killed. Why arent there any grandparent Potters? and Why didn't the Death Eaters head straight for Harry? Protected I guess. Dumbledore magic. Maybe the Longbottoms can be cured and they will come back. Maybe the Mystery department in the MoM will come out in this book and not the last. There will be lots of new and old faces who will be around the school. New DADA teacher. It'll take probably 4 chapters before we find out who it will be buy I'll be so relieved when I find out so we can stop talking about it. No Weasleys will die in any of the books. No one important will unless it's for a good cause. It would be stupid to kill off anyone except for Dumbledore or Harry. You know what I think. This is it. Voldie, or Grindlewald (sp?) has killed the other decendents of the houses and there is a distribution of power among the decendents that make people super strong. This is like the movie "The One" with Jet Li, where he kills other selves to get power and the last battle is between the last of himselves (250 parallel universes). So, it's left between Voldie and Harry (this is why Harry has such exceptional powers). So if Harry does kill him, then he will be immortal or something which is bad, they will have to banish Voldie or turn him into a ghost, not the quasi dead state he was in before. Or, they will both have to die at the same time and the WW will be destroyed and Harry will wake up with his parents, no magic, just a happy family. Or better yet, he will end up in the future. Hermoine and Ron with him. I think that Ron is going to have to find someone else. Hermoine should be with Harry, and if not, Harry and Cho will have something going on and she will die. Voldie will go Spiderman on him and attack the people he cares about. Maybe Parvati and Harry, maybe Parvati and Ron. After the 2nd task, Padma was paying him plenty of attention. Now on to the stuff which guys love. Now if there is one thing we love and that is a good fight. Now we have seen some shabby duels, even with the greatest bad guy. Now what I need to see is a 1 on 1 between Dumbledore and Voldie which will be sort of like Yoda vs. Count Duku in Star Wars Episode 2. Where they will be jumping in and out of apparation form to blast eachother and we are going to have to bring in Jackie Chan in order to film this fight. This will be important for Harry since he is like super precognitive and he has the scar, he will be able to sense Voldie, hence Harry learning to Apparate. So, now everone close their eyes and picture this: <~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~> Voldermort, with Harry's blood flowing in him, turns to Harry and tells him, "We have had an interesting effect last time we battled; However, this time you will not be so lucky." "It was not luck. I understand how truly powerful I truly am. You will never capture the Wizarding World" said Harry. "You insulent little boy. Look at that duffer Fudge you have for a minister, it is not worth saving" Voldermort responded with such fury. "We shall see about that" Harry said, with the spirit of Dumbledore whispering in his ear. Within a blink of an eye Harry was gone. Even a blink of his very own eye. It took a split second for Voldermort to figure out what happened and he took off himself into apparation. Harry stopped and let out a loud "EXPELLIARMUS" into the shadows. Within an instant Voldermort was there, deflecting the spell back into Harry, as well as shouting "IMPERIO," but Harry was out of sight again. By now, Harry's scar was hurting more than ever. It was hard to concentrate and use the scar against Voldermort. He could sense which direction he would appear in by the locationing from Professor Trelawney. After 10 minutes, Harry had shot ten more direct hits, all deflected of course, at Voldermort. While Voldermort did not even come close. They both paused coming into focus. All that apparating was pulling the world into a sort of void for the both of them. "Now we see which is the greater power, Gryffindor or Slytherin" said Harry. Another blink of an eye and they were off. Darting in and out of view, Apparating and dissaprarating like a barrage of bullets. And then in happened again. Their wands locked... <~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~> Now, am I the only one that enjoys the sound of that? I think not. They have magic, so I want to see some good battles. We are in a new age, there is none of this open field battles. We are fighting secret enemies. No one can be trusted and all things will go on behind closed door, and 1 on 1 battles. Snape is good, maybe one of the Death Eathers that went back is good as well. This has been fun. Tzvi of Brooklyn The Youngest Death Eater [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Heleen at ptdprolog.net Thu Jan 23 02:44:47 2003 From: Heleen at ptdprolog.net (Heleen Greenwald) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 21:44:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Further significance of Neville Longbottom References: <6b.7ceb9d4.2b608ca9@aol.com> Message-ID: <01a701c2c289$66621fd0$a500a8c0@boghouse> No: HPFGUIDX 50359 ----- Original Message ----- I had been considering something based upon what several posters have written regarding Neville Longbottom. I believe that the Longbottoms were powerful magic-users, and had a lot of responsibilities --and from that a lot of notoriety and maybe even prestige...? In my reading, I have not come across any concrete instances showing Neville was a great student, and yet I have not seen any references to him failing a course or even a grade. Could the administration at Hogwarts be passing him for reasons beyond his academic performance? Perhaps they are aware of some potential that he has, as yet untapped? Perhaps they are aware of some strength he has that he's not aware of? I'm curious to see what others think of this. Thanks, Marcus -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My take on Neville is that he is a smart kid, and maybe even has as yet hidden talents but that he is socially shy and unsure of himself. And maybe he is overwhelmed by Harry, Ron and Hermione. Some kids know a lot of stuff but they tend to freeze up when put in the public eye. It must be remembered too that Neville stood up to Harry's traipsing about one evening and didn't want Harry to loose any more points for Gryfindore. That speaks to some greatness of character. Phillipa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stunt_monkey2000 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 23 04:16:49 2003 From: stunt_monkey2000 at hotmail.com (stellarfan_nz ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 04:16:49 -0000 Subject: Teenage romance wasRe: SHIP: That Darned Kiss--The Problem With ading R/H in GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50360 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali " wrote: > I think the key question here, is not whether most teenage romances > work, but whether JKR thinks that they can. IIRC her own mother was > only 20 when she was born, indicating that her parents met when they > were both young. James and Lily Potter and Arthur and Molly Weasley > met at Hogwarts. These are clear examples of successful teenage > romances in the Potterverse.(This is obviously from the evidence that > we have to date, as I suppose it is possible that James and Lily's > relationship was a sham). > > Ali I have to dispute your comments regarding James and Lily. Saying that they *met* in Hogwarts does not equate to saying that they formed a romantic relationship at Hogwarts. There has been no firm indication either way in the case of James and Lily thus far, and does little to help prove the point of R/H as Harry and Hermione have also *met* at Hogwarts. Molly and Arthur, yes, I can agree with; however as that is the only truly firm example from canon, I don't think that that argument can be properly supported. -- Carl, delurking From byoon at ucsd.edu Thu Jan 23 05:13:23 2003 From: byoon at ucsd.edu (Brian Yoon) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 21:13:23 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Ron and Hermione do TOO banter! References: Message-ID: <003e01c2c29e$290af340$10ce3680@ucsd.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 50361 Gah, SHIP. > Angua's e-mail > Ron goes to the Yule Ball with Padma -- does Hermione have a problem > with that? Well, we don't see anything at first, but then there is > the incident when Ron is bragging to Padma (who is suddenly a lot > more interested in him) after the Second Task, and Hermione rudely > shuts him up. You're referring to when Ron brags about helping Harry underwater in the Second Task? I always figured Hermione was angry that he was completely lying to everyone about it, and getting a big head. The some of the quotes (the last one in particular) doesn't seem to have any sort of humor in it at all. Brian Yoon From slomudskipper at hotmail.com Thu Jan 23 08:48:37 2003 From: slomudskipper at hotmail.com (slomudskipper ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:48:37 -0000 Subject: What will come in book 5ish In-Reply-To: <130.19f06412.2b60fbdf@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50362 Kewiromeo:"I'm sure this has been said a million times before, but does anyone think that Cedric will come back as a ghost? He had unfinished business, which is why most ghosts hang around." Not all people that have unfinished business or die wrongful deaths come back as ghosts. Think of James and Lily. No, I think Cedric has outlived his usefulness to the plot, although I bet we'll see Harry spend more time thinking about him. Kewiromeo: "Or, they will both have to die at the same time and the WW will be destroyed and Harry will wake up with his parents, no magic, just a happy family." I think that an "and then he woke up" ending would be the single most disappointing ending that Rowling could write. I would retch. Cry. Get a most painful headache. Mudskipper, who got a ticket from "Officer Salazar" tonight for driving with a headlight burnt out. From lupinesque at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 11:12:57 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:12:57 -0000 Subject: Real characters & persuasive argument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50363 Elkins wrote: > But if you are trying to explain why you reacted to a given text > in a particular way, then why on earth would you present evidence > that had nothing to do with what you were trying to explain? I > don't understand this at all. Wouldn't that be a rather *odd* thing > to do, really? > > If what you are trying to convey, for example, is "Ron and Harry > strike me as really inconsiderate. Their behavior upsets me a > great deal when I read the books. Here are some examples of the > sorts of things they do that have made me feel this way," then > why on earth would you cite things that *hadn't* made you feel > that way? I mean, that would just be downright *weird,* wouldn't > it? I would certainly find it strange. If nothing else, it would > make ones post utterly incoherent. Not at all. Let's take a really, really obvious example instead of a subtle one like whether Ron and Harry are on balance inconsiderate idiots. Let's say someone is trying to explain ( not persuade anyone else) that Snape strikes her as a particularly kind person. So what does she do? Does she say "He smiles at Draco [cite]" and "He saves Harry's life"? That wouldn't really explain, would it? She would have to talk about examples where Snape didn't appear to be kind and say something about why those are misleading, or how they don't come up so frequently as to outweigh her overall impression. Surely she goes through some kind of internal process along those lines in order to reach her conclusion--somewhere in her own reading process she has dismissed many of Snape's obvious unkindnesses. The same applies in this case. We all reach different conclusions about the characters. I'm interested in how other people reach their conclusions, and often come to see the characters differently because of how others perceive them and their excellent explanations of those perceptions. But as a close reader of the books, I seldom do that in response to posts that leave out many of the salient points I've noticed. No one is going to convince me that Snape is kind without dealing with the evidence to the contrary; no one is going to convince me that Harry is on balance inconsiderate without doing the same. Ebony wrote: > > Why would I point out all of Ron's very good characteristics in > > an essay in which I am speaking about why I do not like the idea > > of him with Hermione, when such evidence is tangential to the > > topic? Elkins wrote: > Yes, precisely. Why would one? I see no reason why one would > want to do that. It's not a matter of sneaky rhetorical ploys, > as some people seem to be implying. It is simply a matter of > coherence and of *relevance.* I don't think it's a sneaky rhetorical ploy; I think it's unconvincing. As I read arguments about why Ron and Hermione wouldn't be a good couple, I'm thinking about each of their good qualities and the interactions between them that suggest possible good couplehood. I'm posing little "yes, buts" in my mind. Ignoring the incidents that argue against one's perception allows these "yes, buts" to flourish. When you write about Crouch Sr., Elkins, you take on each of the incidents that are frequently cited as suggesting something positive about him and explain why you interpret them differently. This makes me much more likely to join you in your interpretation than if you ignored them, because *I'm* not ignoring them; how can I? I read the books closely and form my own tentative conclusions. Elkins wrote: > I believe that the problem here may be that you have misconstrued the > intended argument of both Eileen's and Ebony's posts. If you look > back to Eileen's original post #50164, for example, you will see that > she wrote this sentence (set apart in a paragraph of its very own, in > fact, as if for emphasis): > > > But I don't expect *anyone* to concede that *either* > > Ron or Harry is as flawed as I read them. > > In other words, she was never trying to "convince you," or anyone > else, to consider these characters as inconsiderate as she does. Fair enough. She doesn't want to convince me, and I'm unconvinced, so we're all in agreement. (Ebony, I suspect, would like to convince us that Ron and Hermione wouldn't be good together . . . am I wrong, Eb?) > What I guess I'm finding upsetting here is the vague feeling that I > get from this thread, a feeling that so long as a reader's response > is sufficiently idiosyncratic (which is only to be expected: after > all, there would be very little point in bothering to set forth ones > reasons for having a *universal* response to a text, would there?, > which as I read it, was precisely a large part of Eileen's *point*) > and sufficiently powerfully expressed (which one would think we would > value on this list, but which sometimes it seems that we don't), that > it is therefore held to be in some way invalid, or even *unfair* Again, I don't think it's unfair. What did I write that makes you think I was saying so? Amy Z From lupinesque at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 11:43:59 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:43:59 -0000 Subject: Real characters & persuasive argument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50364 Erm, replying to my own post to fix my paragraphization (is there a word for this?). I know I'm dealing with careful readers here--a paragraph break in the wrong place makes a world of difference. :-) Amy Z > So what does she do? Does she say "He smiles at Draco [cite]" > and "He saves Harry's life"? That wouldn't really explain, would > it? She would have to talk about examples where Snape didn't appear > to be kind and say something about why those are misleading, or how > they don't come up so frequently as to outweigh her overall > impression. Surely she goes through some kind of internal process > along those lines in order to reach her conclusion--somewhere in her > own reading process she has dismissed many of Snape's obvious > unkindnesses. The same applies in this case. >We all reach different conclusions > about the characters. I'm interested in how other people reach their > conclusions, and often come to see the characters differently because > of how others perceive them and their excellent explanations of those > perceptions. But as a close reader of the books, I seldom do that in > response to posts that leave out many of the salient points I've > noticed. No one is going to convince me that Snape is kind without > dealing with the evidence to the contrary; no one is going to > convince me that Harry is on balance inconsiderate without doing the > same. From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Thu Jan 23 14:36:24 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:36:24 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Author intent (was Ron and Hermione do TOO banter!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50365 Ebony wrote: > I am rather surprised that the text itself is so very > ambiguous... a flaw that I expect will be corrected in OotP. and later: > And if JKR intends Hermione to end up with Ron, I want OotP to > address many if not all of the points I raised in my essay. Ron's > got great moments, I agree, but the disquiet that some of us feel > when it comes to him needs to be addressed. > > However, I doubt that she will address the issues that I brought up. > I'm no fool; ever since reading GoF I've predicted that Ron and > Hermione will date in future books. If I were a betting woman, my > money would be on R/H... I concede the first quote above is a little out of context. I think though Ebony glancingly raises a point that doesn't get a lot of attention in the shipping discussion I have seen here. That is that there may be a deliberate ambiguity in the text, such that it is consistent both with H/H and H/R. There are two broad possibilities here, IMO (I am not discussing here the possibility that there is only one pairing intended and the other is a disastrous accident caused by clumsy writing and/or reading.): 1) that one shipping position is misdirection and the other 'reality'. In this case it would almost certainly be R/H that is the misdirection and H/H (or some no-ship or even FITD) that is what will transpire. This possibility is broadly in line with other plot aspects of the series, e.g. Snape-as-villain in PS, Percy and Bagman in COS and GOF. 2) that the situation is more symmetric and that both H/H and R/H are being kept open as future possibilities until JKR (and Hermione) eventually plumps for one of them, or openly refuses both pro tem. On the first possibility we would be given enough information in future books to 'decode' the current books to say what 'really' happened, e.g. we would be told why Hermione blushed at a certain point, or what her problem is with Fleur. On the second, we would eventually get insight of a moment of real uncertainty over both boys for Hermione, thus both endorsing and relativising aspects of both the R/H and the H/H interpretations of the former books. I have trouble with both readings. The first because once I know, for example, that Quirrell is the villain, all the previous Snape passages 'click' and I have no desire to go back to any other interpretation. Seeing the H/H interpretation of various passages in GOF does not have the same effect on me: I recognise much of their force but it doesn't leave me with that sense of having penetrated JKR's misdirection with R/H. I stress that is a personal reaction: I make no claim to suggest that others should feel the same. Possibly JKR's imprimatur on H/H in OOP would make me feel differently. On the other hand, the second reading introduces a degree of uncertainty that strikes me as untypical of the HP series. Yes, mystery and deception, authorial and by characters, abound, but underlying it all JKR maintains the conviction (IMO) that there *is* a reality that can ultimately be known. IMO it is for this reason that we get so invested in our interpretations: we buy into the illusion and so suffer anxiety and discomfort when our interpretations are seriously challenged, akin to that we feel when our real world perceptions are challenged. The second reading does not *contradict* this, but it stresses ambiguity resolved by choice, rather than ambiguity resolved by revelation, which I see as more typical in the Potterverse. But then again, choice is an important theme, so I'm sure JKR could weave it in with her usual aplomb. (It will be interesting to see how and if Lupin's undoubted ambiguity is resolved.) On the specific point Ebony raises above, > However, I doubt that she will address the issues that I brought up, I have rather more confidence than Ebony. I think if R/H is to happen *within the series* then the damage Ron has done to his cause would have to be fairly explicitly repaired. David From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Thu Jan 23 14:44:50 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:44:50 -0000 Subject: SHIP: R/H question for Ebony (was Ron and Hermione do TOO banter!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50366 Ebony wrote: > And oh, if I could only get paid to debate SHIP all day... No money, I'm afraid, but the unusual accolade of two replies to the same post from the same person. > ever since reading GoF I've predicted that Ron and > Hermione will date in future books. If I were a betting woman, my > money would be on R/H... And I thought your essays were such a comprehensive trashing (if I may use that word) of the R/H position! Perhaps you have explained somewhere else how that would come about (fanfic?), but I would appreciate a pointer, or an explanation. Do you see Ron browbeating Hermione into it? JKR comprehensively wrecking her own characterisation of these people? Hermione dating Ron in some bizarre way 'for Harry's sake'? David From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Jan 23 14:44:52 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 09:44:52 EST Subject: Harry's Fan; Dumbledore, Snape and Fudge Message-ID: <64.2b8e50a9.2b6159e4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50367 Kathryn: >>flower fairy 12: >> I'm thinking it's more likely to be Viktor Krum, Cho >> Chang, Colin >> Creevey or possibly Fleur Delacour. > >The thing is, I don't think it would be very >significant for one of those characters to die. I >mean, of them all, we know Krum the best, and we don't >know him well at all. They aren't main parts of the >story, so it wouldn't be a huge trauma to the series >if they were killed. Well, if we'd been told about Cedric dying prior to GoF, I daresay we'd have said the same thing. JKR has plenty of time to increase our interest in any of these characters. There's plenty of pathos to be got out of Colin's death, IMHO, if his character is developed. He really *is* a fan of Harry's and the fact that Harry tends to be rather dismissive of him would add to the pathos. Similarly with Cho. We know she admires and likes Harry. Even if no romance develops between them, she may well become closer to the friend who was with him when Cedric died. I can easily see her taking on a bigger role. In fact, given her relationship with Cedric, might she not be more likely to put herself in a position of danger in order to stand up to Voldemort? But am I missing something? Who said there's only going to be *one* death in OoP. Aren't the 'fan' death and the 'horrible to write' death two different things? Personally, I'm expecting the deaths of at least one minor character and of one major one, which latter will be the real source of the trauma. blauemeanies: >Actually, Fudge does not have the power to do that. The enigmatic >Board of Governors are the only people who can do that, and when >Fudge tried to stop Lucius and the board from sacking Dumbledore in >CoS, he was told quite directly that there was nothing he could do to >stop the governors. Mmm. That's true. And a little odd, I feel, given the fact that in GoF Fudge is both able to order (or at least threaten to order) an inquiry into the running of the school and mentions that there weren't many [MoM's] who would have allowed the employment of a werewolf, given Dumbledore such free rein or let him make curriculum decisions without reference to the Ministry. I wonder if what we are actually seeing here is a power struggle between Fudge and Malfoy. I suspect that the power *does* lie with the Minister, but in this case the Minister is in Malfoy's pocket. The Board of Governors is, as you say, enigmatic. Who appoints them? The MoM seems to regulate every aspect of wizarding life; I find it hard to believe that they do not appoint the Hogwarts Governors. I also find it hard to believe that Malfoy would not do his utmost to exploit his position to the point where he assumed an autonomy which was not originally intentioned. ~Eloise You think that just because it's already happened, the past is finished and unhangeable? Oh no, the past is cloaked in multi-colored taffeta and every time we look at it we see a different hue. (Milan Kundera, Life is Elsewhere) From lupinesque at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 15:12:34 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:12:34 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Author intent (was Ron and Hermione do TOO banter!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50368 David wrote (I don't seem to be able to snip it more than this): > There are two broad possibilities here, IMO (I am not discussing > here the possibility that there is only one pairing intended and the > other is a disastrous accident caused by clumsy writing and/or > reading.): > > 1) that one shipping position is misdirection and the > other 'reality'. In this case it would almost certainly be R/H that > is the misdirection and H/H (or some no-ship or even FITD) that is > what will transpire. This possibility is broadly in line with other > plot aspects of the series, e.g. Snape-as-villain in PS, Percy and > Bagman in COS and GOF. > > 2) that the situation is more symmetric and that both H/H and R/H > are being kept open as future possibilities until JKR (and Hermione) > eventually plumps for one of them, or openly refuses both pro tem. > > On the first possibility we would be given enough information in > future books to 'decode' the current books to say what 'really' > happened, e.g. we would be told why Hermione blushed at a certain > point, or what her problem is with Fleur. > > On the second, we would eventually get insight of a moment of real > uncertainty over both boys for Hermione, thus both endorsing and > relativising aspects of both the R/H and the H/H interpretations of > the former books. > > I have trouble with both readings. The first because once I know, > for example, that Quirrell is the villain, all the previous Snape > passages 'click' and I have no desire to go back to any other > interpretation. Seeing the H/H interpretation of various passages > in GOF does not have the same effect on me: I recognise much of > their force but it doesn't leave me with that sense of having > penetrated JKR's misdirection with R/H. I stress that is a personal > reaction: I make no claim to suggest that others should feel the > same. Possibly JKR's imprimatur on H/H in OOP would make me feel > differently. > > On the other hand, the second reading introduces a degree of > uncertainty that strikes me as untypical of the HP series. Yes, > mystery and deception, authorial and by characters, abound, but > underlying it all JKR maintains the conviction (IMO) that there *is* > a reality that can ultimately be known. IMO it is for this reason > that we get so invested in our interpretations: we buy into the > illusion and so suffer anxiety and discomfort when our > interpretations are seriously challenged, akin to that we feel when > our real world perceptions are challenged. The second reading does > not *contradict* this, but it stresses ambiguity resolved by choice, > rather than ambiguity resolved by revelation, which I see as more > typical in the Potterverse. But then again, choice is an important > theme, so I'm sure JKR could weave it in with her usual aplomb. (It > will be interesting to see how and if Lupin's undoubted ambiguity is > resolved.) I don't think the ship turning in either (or a third, or no) direction would affect me in the same way the Quirrell revelation does, because the situations are quite different. Quirrell was always working for Voldemort, ever since we met him. We go back and read the story with that knowledge, the way we reread a mystery knowing whodunnit, and the knowledge is valid from page one. The same goes for Lupin being a werewolf, Sirius being a good guy, Snape saving Harry from Quirrell, etc. . . . unless one or more of these is later undone in a double twist, of course. R/H or H/H developing into an indisputable fact wouldn't rewrite the past the same way, because *it wasn't true earlier*; the characters really are changing. We do a bit of this with shipping--e.g., we reread PA for hints that Ron was already starting to like Hermione, and find them--but it is much more nebulous. If Harry and Hermione get caught locking lips in the broom cupboard in OP 6, we'll look back for hints, and find them, but it won't mean Harry and Hermione have been romantically interested in each other since PS/SS 1 (obviously) or even GF 37. Unlike Quirrell's true nature, these feelings might be something that simply aren't there yet, but will be later. As a result, the ambiguity of the current ship-oriented passages will live on, albeit with a strong tinge from whatever the outcome is. We read Snape's activities in PS/SS with the pleasure of stereoscopic vision, but they aren't *ambiguous* (assuming for the sake of argument that the final verdict on Snape will be that he's a good guy and really was saving Harry for good reason in PS/SS). R/H and H/H as currently written are ambiguous, I agree, and will remain so even if the ship sets sail, unless we get a passage where Harry says "I've liked you ever since the Yule Ball"; even then, we can say "He didn't *really* know then how he felt; that's just hindsight." Amy Z From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 06:39:38 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (thomasmwall ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 06:39:38 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore, Snap and Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50369 Please forgive me, but I don't have GoF handy. I'll be as specific as memory permits. Consider: After the fiasco that was the Triwizard Tournament, the wizarding public starts to ask serious questions about the management of Hogwarts. "How is it that every DADA teacher for the last four years has been of questionable character? Did you know that Quirrell was a supporter of You-Know-Who? That Lockhart couldn't even cast a spell to stop pixies? Remus Lupin? Yeah, he was a WEREWOLF that almost attacked a student AND a teacher! And who would have though we'd hear from Barty Crouch, Jr. again? Wasn't he in Azkaban? No? He impersonated Mad-Eye Moody for a whole year? Hey wait... weren't Moody and Dumbledore good friends? How'd Dumbledore fall for it? Maybe one mistake, maybe two in hiring teachers, after all, no one's perfect. But FOUR loons hired at the school in four years? Our kids are supposed to be SAFE at Hogwarts, not in the company of You-Know- Who's supporters and other crazies. And what about The Triwizard Tournament? Oh, what a disgrace to the Ministry. Barty Crouch, Sr.: dead, ON the Hogwarts grounds. Barty Crouch, Jr.: dead, but hey, he was supposed to be in Azkaban anyways. This kid was able to infiltrate Hogwarts, was able to masquerade as a teacher and as an auror, was able to trick the Goblet of Fire into accepting two champions from Hogwarts, and was able to turn the Triwizard Cup into a Portkey? A student DIED because of all of this? Now we look like fools in front of the whole wizarding world. And speaking of You-Know-Who, where does this Dumbledore get off, scaring my kids with his stories of You-Know-Who's return? Hogwash. There's no proof of that at all. Says who, anyways? Who, Harry Potter?! Give me a break: we can't be expected to believe him - he's out of his mind! Haven't you been reading the Daily Prophet? Poor kid. Too much trauma, manipulative girlfriends, all that. Tough luck. Now my kid is having nightmares about Death Eaters. And anyways, look at the facts: all Harry Potter is doing is re- accusing a bunch of ex-Death Eaters who were exonerated years ago. So he can read his History of Magic testbook! So what! Leave them alone. After all, Lucius and Narcissa Malfoy are upstanding members of our community. They make large donations to St. Mungo's. I even heard that Dumbledore threatened the Minister of Magic himself after the whole debacle. Can you believe it? And that Harry Potter? My kids say that Dumbledore openly favors him, even though he's as much of a rule breaker as his father. Let the kid play for the Quidditch team as a first year! Yep. Helped them to win the House Cup repeatedly, with "special" headmaster points awarded after the whole competition was supposed to be done and over with. And you know that scar? Dumbledore KNEW the whole time that his scar hurts him, poor kid: he's got delusions of You-Know-Who all over the place, he's even had several fits in class. This could be a safety issue. A health issue. All under Dumbledore's watch? HE'S supposed to be the great headmaster? And now, now he wants us to talk to those violent giants? Isn't it bad enough that he's got one on the Hogwarts staff? He wants to get RID of the dementors? Who's going to secure Azkaban? Who's going to keep us safe? He's been cavorting with that crazy Arabella Figg, with that senile old Mundungus Fletcher from the Ministry... didn't that Fletcher even try to scam the Ministry for some lost tent that he never had? And STILL Dumbledore's got dealings with the werewolf? I tell you, the man is losing it in his old age. I thought I'd seen it all. Sure, it's a shame. He was a great wizard in his day. Defeated that Grindelwald. Ahh, too bad... everything wanes at some point. All we'd need now is something to break the camel's back. Could you imagine if it turned out that he's been in close contact with the notorius Sirius Black, an escapee from Azkaban. Or maybe that he helped a violent, student-attacking hippogriff to ESCAPE? You know what? Maybe we shouldn't have placed so much trust in him. Maybe we need to get some new management at the school. I'm not sure that my kids are safe there anymore. Maybe we should contact some of the governors on the board and have them take action..." -Tom From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 08:53:33 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (thomasmwall ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:53:33 -0000 Subject: some pointless questions from GOF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50370 ">2. Was there a House Cup at all in the fourth year? " "No, it was not done out of respect for Cedric. I also think JKR is trying to show that things are changing. The House Cup was something we knew we were going to have, because we had the last three years. Now that's gone. In fact I bet it won't come back till book 7 if at all." I agree that there is no mention of the house cup winners during the final banquet, but I don't think that it's due to respect for the departed. As far as I remember, there is nothing in canon to support the notion of a House Cup during the Triwizard Tournament. Actually, due to the nature of the Tournament, it would seem (to me) to be highly inappropriate to have such a contest, when everyone's supposed to be supporting their school champion. I'm not sure how the other schools organize their students, but in Hogwarts' case, a house cup during a Tournament year would do nothing but undermine support for the Hogwarts Champion. To supplement that, I don't recall any mention of points being added to or taken from any of the houses or students during GoF, although this could just be a lapse in memory on my part. -Tom From lupinesque at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 15:30:23 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:30:23 -0000 Subject: some pointless (get it?) questions from GOF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50371 Tom wrote: > I don't recall any mention of points being added > to or taken from any of the houses or students during GoF, although > this could just be a lapse in memory on my part. Well, it's a long book. You're forgiven. ;-) There are a few cases, e.g., during the Yule Ball when Snape is wrathfully striding amongst the rosebushes. I was LOONy enough to compile a complete list of points and detentions for all four books, which is probably sitting on Lexicon Steve's hard drive, in the "Do even Lexicon readers care about THIS?" folder. *waves cheerily at Steve* I don't remember the details without looking up my lists. So, to return to the point, would points mean anything to students if they knew there would be no House Cup that year? I suppose there could be other rewards. And they could have quietly cancelled the House Cup championship at the very end of the year, after Cedric's death, in which case students would have been motivated in the usual way (and very ticked at the end if it was their house that had the most points). Amy Z From kermit13166 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 14:58:17 2003 From: kermit13166 at yahoo.com (kermit13166 ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:58:17 -0000 Subject: PoA question and Sirius Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50372 I have a question that is bugging me that perhaps someone can help me with. In PoA, Sirius tells Harry that he was the one who sent the Firebolt....10 yrs worth of gifts etc... My question is two fold...One-how did he get to Gringotts to get his money out without being seen and second Sirius said he gave Crookshanks the order....Would no one find it odd that a cat delivers such an order? Just wondering.... From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 15:43:04 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 07:43:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What will come in book 5ish In-Reply-To: <130.19f06412.2b60fbdf@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030123154304.19934.qmail@web40504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50373 Boy, do I have a lot to say about this... kewiromeo at aol.com wrote: "As well, I think that Harry's fan will be Mr. Diggory. " Kathryn: As I said in a post, maybe even yesterday...why would Mr. Diggory's death be hard to write, we've seen him what? 3 times in the entire series (The Weasley's fire place, the Quidditch World Cup, and after Cedric's death). He is so much less significant to the plot than Cedric was. Since JKR specifically said that this book would have a hard to write death, I assume that it must be someone more significant to the plot than Cedric was. kewiromeo at aol.com wrote: "I don't see what you need an owl for in school anyways besides the mail. I don't think I would appreciate being turned into a pumpkin or poisoned." Kathryn:Isn't getting mail important enough? I'm pretty sure that's one of the main reasons kids have owls. I don't think the school would have an Owlery if alot of students didn't want to bring owls. And what are you talking about being turned into a pumpkin? kewiromeo at aol.com wrote: "No Weasleys will die in any of the books. No one important will unless it's for a good cause. It would be stupid to kill off anyone except for Dumbledore or Harry." Kathryn: Well *obviously* Harry wouldn't die until book 7, cause it would be sorta hard to have "Harry Potter and the...." without Harry Potter. And I totally disagree that no one important will die. Voldemort really wants to kill Harry, so if he can't get to Harry, I think he'll probably try to hurt him by harming or killing people close to him. Of course Harry will be sad if anyone dies in the war, but I seriously doubt JKR is so childish that she'll avoid killing anyone important. It doesn't add to the story to kill off characters we've only met a couple times. To really affect the story it has to be someone who's usually there, and then isn't. kewiromeo at aol.com wrote: Or, they(Harry and Voldemort) will both have to die at the same time and the WW will be destroyed and Harry will wake up with his parents, no magic, just a happy family. Kathryn: I won't say this is completely impossible, but I think it would be a truely dissapointing ending. For everything to just be over. And there would be so many loose ends to tie up. Would it mean everyone was non-magic now? Would Dumbledore die because he's now a 150 year old muggle? Would it be like the WW ever existed? Would R/H/H know each other or would it be like none of that ever happened? kewiromeo at aol.com wrote: Or better yet, he will end up in the future. Hermoine and Ron with him. I think that Ron is going to have to find someone else. Hermoine should be with Harry, and if not, Harry and Cho will have something going on and she will die. Kathryn: Ending up in the future like, we skip ahead to the future, or like "Back to the Future" where they get sent to the future as they are and they're still young and everyone else is old? And I think that most of the clues point to a H/H friendship and a R/H romance. And, I must have deleted it but at some point there was something about Harry being REALLY powerful. I disagree. If Harry was such a powerful wizard, why did it take him so long to learn the patronus charm? And how come he can't see anything in the crystal ball? He has shown that he is not AMAZING at his practical exams, so I don't see evidence that he has some sort of stonger magical power or ability than others. ~Kathryn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 16:18:38 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:18:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Further significance of Neville Longbottom In-Reply-To: <01a701c2c289$66621fd0$a500a8c0@boghouse> Message-ID: <20030123161838.27150.qmail@web21004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50374 Heleen Greenwald wrote: In my reading, I have not come across any concrete instances showing Neville was a great student, and yet I have not seen any references to him failing a course or even a grade. Could the administration at Hogwarts be passing him for reasons beyond his academic performance? Perhaps they are aware of some potential that he has, as yet untapped? Perhaps they are aware of some strength he has that he's not aware of? I'm curious to see what others think of this. Thanks, Marcus Me I don't think he's getting a free ride. Neville isn't a good student but he's not totally stupid (just highly foregetfull and mistake prone). There is always somebody who passes at the bottom of the class. And there is a class Neville gets very high marks in. His "specialty" is definitely agricultural. He's one of the best students, or so it has been implied in one of the books with plants! Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From robgonz0 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 16:27:57 2003 From: robgonz0 at yahoo.com (Robert Gonzalez) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 10:27:57 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron in Cos (was Ron and the Trouble with Veela) References: <20030123040620.53596.qmail@web41101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008801c2c2fc$640fcf20$32951c18@satx.rr.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50375 ----- Original Message ----- From: "golden faile" I was wondering, where in COS do we see evidence of Ron having an interest in Hermione? me: I always felt that Rons taking up for Hermione when Malfoy called her a Mudblood in CoS was indicative of his true feelings for her. Rob From theo_kestrel at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 16:48:03 2003 From: theo_kestrel at yahoo.com (theo_kestrel ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:48:03 -0000 Subject: Ron in Cos (was Ron and the Trouble with Veela) In-Reply-To: <008801c2c2fc$640fcf20$32951c18@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50376 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gonzalez" wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "golden faile" > I was wondering, where in COS do we see evidence of Ron having an interest > in Hermione? > > me: > I always felt that Rons taking up for Hermione when Malfoy called her a > Mudblood in CoS was indicative of his true feelings for her. > > Rob I Object! Hehe, guess we're not in a courtroom, although the lengthy SHIP arguments that have been put forth in recent days make it seem otherwise. As a fan of the H/Hr pairing, my objectivity may be non-existent, but I rather agree with other readers (I think on the infamous DeathMarch thread on FictionAlley Park) who note that Ron's defense of Hermione and his abortive attack on Malfoy in CoS is consistent with his behavior when Malfoy insults his sister, insults his mother, insults his family in general, or insults Harry-sorry, I don't have specific examples to show off-hand(darn books are still packed away); the only difference this time is that his wand is broken, thus the slugs-it's not as if Ron CHOSE to cough up slugs for Hermione's honor. It's more like Ron hears insult-Ron reacts, whether it's the fight in the Quidditch stands, the slug incident, or any other occasion when Ron's temper is set off. Now, if I were a R/Hr shipper, I wouldn't be so quick to bring up this incident as "proof" of Ron's feelings for Hermione at age...12? His familial relations must be quite odd if it's so ;). theo_kestrel From probono at rapidnet.com Thu Jan 23 16:48:54 2003 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:48:54 -0000 Subject: Ron and the Trouble with Veela In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50377 Didn't Arthur resist the Veela at the World Cup by covering his ears during their songs? I vaguely remember him telling Ron and Harry to cover their ears [sorry, no books here at work, so I can't check]. If so, that could explain how Arthur (and everybody else in the stadium) were able to resist the Veela on that night. Whereas, the effects of Fleur's Veelishness can be explained by Harry's superior strength of will, as others have said here. Or perhaps, because she's only half-Veela, she doesn't have the strength to effect large groups of people and instead focuses on one target. I don't remember any instance in canon where Fleur effects (in that way) more than one person at a time? Is there? -Tanya From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jan 23 16:49:03 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:49:03 -0000 Subject: JKR's marriage SHIP, Yule Ball In-Reply-To: <031901c2c291$ee5576a0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50378 I earlier argued: <<<<>>>>>> Penny: >>Are you trying to suggest that they've been secretly attracted to each other from the moment they met at age 11? Because that's how long they've been at each other you know. << Well, yeah. In a very latent stage, Calvin and Susie, Tom and Becky , "You've got dirt on your nose, " kind of way. Is that a foundation for future romance? In itself, of course not, but I don't see why it has to militate against it either. Is there some sort of taboo that no one you considered eligible before the age of 21 is eligible afterward? That's hardly feasible in the wizarding world. Unless you're going to wind up with a Muggle, a foreigner or someone much older or younger than yourself, you know every eligible person, at least by name and reputation, by the time you're seventeen. This is not a world where people go off to college, then move to the big city to make their career. They don't go through the big dislocations that people in our society do between eighteen and twenty-five. I think that a wizarding pair who decided they were couple material as mature teens (and Ron and Hermione certainly haven't decided that yet) wouldn't be advised to wait on account of those two major life changing experiences looming ahead of them. Although, of course, Ron and Hermione *do* have a major life changing experience ahead of them. And it's not going to wait until they're eighteen, more's the pity. If their relationship can grow and blossom in the shadow of what Voldemort's going to throw at them, do you really think they'll let anything else tear it apart? Meanwhile, I think that we R/H'ers are setting a trap for ourselves if we expect to find incontrovertible evidence of Hermione =======>> Ron in GoF. This is the middle of the story, and we all know what happens to the boy who meets the girl at the beginning of the story and gets her at the end. That's right. He *loses* her. Right on schedule. I also want to say a word about Ron's male chauvinism in saying the girls nobody wants are Trolls. I think, (and I'm not excusing him, mind) that most of his comments are projection, and he wants a pretty girl because of what "all the good ones are taken" will say about *him,* not because he, personally, considers pretty girls the only ones worth dating. *He's* the one who's nervous about his appearance -- in the conversation with Fred and George just prior, they insult it several times, once to say that his singed eyebrows will go well with his dress robes (already a sore subject) call him a "stupid great prat" and then tell him to "nose out." Ron gets teased about his nose, as we know. I'm sure he's had to listen to a lot of "who's hot, who's not" conversations between Fred, George, Seamus and Dean. (Why do I think the collection of Scarlet Letters magazines, with their age restriction charms disabled, belongs to Fred and George, who lend out "Weasley Wizard Wand-Ups" at extortionate rates for perusal by the lonely and the curious?) Considering himself in meat market fashion, Ron hasn't got much to offer. He's sensitive about his looks, his poverty, and compared to his two friends, his lack of magical prowess (he hasn't figured out yet that it's not what you have, it's how you use it.) All he has is his friendship with Harry and his old-family descent, and he's too noble to trade on them. IMO, Ron's attitude resembles that famous remark of Groucho's, "I wouldn't join any club that would have me for a member." Seen in this light, his remarks about Neville are really about himself. If he actually had such a low opinion of Neville, I'd expect him to object to his taking Ginny, but we don't hear a peep about that. The reason Ron doesn't care whether the girl he ends up with is horrible or not is because, considered as potential dates, they're *all* horrible. Ron's concern is not whether he will have a good time. It's a given to him that he won't. His concern is that he won't look like an idiot, and this comes out over and over again in canon "everyone watching", "we're going to look really stupid if we haven't got any" "surveyed himself in the mirror with an appalled look on his face." His acting-out is the classic reaction of a child who's been pushed into a social situation he can't handle. Ron would have been much happier if the fourth year Gryffs could have treated the Yule Ball as a group date and gone in a body, I'm sure. Pippin From golden_faile at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 16:51:46 2003 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:51:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron in Cos (was Ron and the Trouble with Veela) In-Reply-To: <008801c2c2fc$640fcf20$32951c18@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20030123165146.95554.qmail@web41103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50379 Robert Gonzalez wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: "golden faile" I was wondering, where in COS do we see evidence of Ron having an interest in Hermione? me: I always felt that Rons taking up for Hermione when Malfoy called her a Mudblood in CoS was indicative of his true feelings for her. Laila: Could be... but let me ask you this. If someone insults one of your best friends wouldn't you come to their rescue? Laila Yahoo! 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Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From heidit at netbox.com Thu Jan 23 16:59:14 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:59:14 -0500 Subject: SHIP: Ron in Cos, Draco in PoA. In-Reply-To: <008801c2c2fc$640fcf20$32951c18@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <036a01c2c300$c25a0150$0301a8c0@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 50380 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "golden faile" > I was wondering, where in COS do we see evidence of Ron > having an interest in Hermione? > Robert wrote: > I always felt that Rons taking up for Hermione when Malfoy > called her a Mudblood in CoS was indicative of his true > feelings for her. > It's entirely possible that he already had a crush on her then, but I do have to point out that even if he did, and this was indicative of it, he was in a somewhat advantageous position compared to both Hermione and Harry at that moment, given that he knew what the term meant and how rude it was, whereas both Harry and Hermione had no idea of the wrongness of using that term. This, of course, leads me to the "meta" question I always have about SHIPping. I read the books individually - in other words, I read PS, and had to wait for the release of CoS, then the release of PoA, then GoF and am, of course, still waiting for OoTP. And it took involvement in the fandom for me to see that Ron had a crush on Hermione in GoF - and I still can't see it anywhere before that. That, of course, doesn't mean it's not there in the background - but I ended PoA thinking that *Draco* was crushing on her, because of his walking away without a word after she slapped him in PoA. And I still think that his feelings towards her are a complete mixed bag - he's jealous, he hates how she does better than he in school, and he's somehow intrigued by her in a way that he probably couldn't even explain right now. And in GoF, when he doesn't throw any caustic comments at her during the pre-Yule Ball entrance bit, I really feel that JKR is trying to show this conglomoration of feelings that he can't sort out. He has definitely noticed she's a girl - if he hadn't noticed this the past year when in the post-slap moment. Of course, I don't think that she has any interest in him at this moment in time in canon, but that doesn't mean that her feelings towards him couldn't change, if he did - or if he even made a small step towards nonsupport of the Death Eaters, for whatever reason. It's one of the reasons why I see the merits of a Farmer In The Dell approach, although slightly different from Penny's, as she doesn't include Draco in her mix. Of course, I do hate the "everybody loves 'Mione!" approach I see in some fanfics (although absolutely not many, or all!) where every single male at Hogwarts realises that she is womanly perfection, but wouldn't it be magnificent in terms of plotting (and there's some canon basis for all of this) if Ron, still crushing, is stuck in his GoF phase for another book or two, and unable to make a step to tell her how he feels, and she, in the meantime, sees that Snape is trying to play the mentor to Draco and lead him away from following Lucius' footsteps and becomes friendly with him - this son of a Death Eater who also has a crush on her...? There's an element of cheezy melodrama about it, I admit, but it does create a multilayered conflict situation without involving Harry, who, IMHO, will be too busy in the next 2.5 books getting ready to save the world to *really* spend much time meeting his own romantic needs. heidi From probono at rapidnet.com Thu Jan 23 17:06:54 2003 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 17:06:54 -0000 Subject: Neville in Herbology (was sig. of Neville) In-Reply-To: <01a701c2c289$66621fd0$a500a8c0@boghouse> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50381 It seems to be universally agreed upon that Neville excels in Herbology. However, the only canon I remember seeing that supports this statement is that which comes directly from Crouch/Moody's mouth. If I remember correctly, Professor Sprout herself never mentions Neville's skills at all, not even once. Nor do I remember Rowling ever writing any scenes in Herbology that even hints towards Neville excelling in it. So, all we have is Crouch/Moody's statement, and we know he had ulterior motives at the time. He wanted to help Harry with the Tri- wizard tournament, but he couldn't do so directly. Planting (get it, planting? har-har) a botanical book on Neville and then planting (hardy har-har) clues in Harry's brain. The result being a gigantic blazing neon Las Vegas-style sign floating firmly atop Neville's head shouting "THE ANSWER'S IN HERE!!!!" Or, at least that was his intention. Didn't quite work as well as he had hoped. So, is this the only criterion we have to base this assumption, or did I miss more? -Tanya (who knows there's no excuse for terrible puns) From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Thu Jan 23 17:06:58 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 17:06:58 -0000 Subject: Ron and the Trouble with Veela In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50382 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "probonoprobono " wrote: > Didn't Arthur resist the Veela at the World Cup by covering his ears > during their songs? I vaguely remember him telling Ron and Harry to > cover their ears [sorry, no books here at work, so I can't check]. > If so, that could explain how Arthur (and everybody else in the > stadium) were able to resist the Veela on that night. > > Whereas, the effects of Fleur's Veelishness can be explained by > Harry's superior strength of will, as others have said here. Or > perhaps, because she's only half-Veela, she doesn't have the > strength to effect large groups of people and instead focuses on one > target. I don't remember any instance in canon where Fleur effects > (in that way) more than one person at a time? Is there? > -Tanya I thought that the Veela episode at the World Cup (Harry vs Ron's ability to resist) was a foreshadowing of their respective reactions to the Imperious Curse in Fake!Moody's DADA class. I'm also curious how that little tete-a-tete between Fake!Moody and Neville went. Wasn't Barty Jr. responsible for putting the Crutiatus curse on Neville's mother (and father?). Erica From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Jan 23 17:09:56 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 09:09:56 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: R/H question for Ebony (was Ron and Hermione do TOO banter!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <22260197801.20030123090956@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 50383 Hi, Thursday, January 23, 2003, 6:44:50 AM, David wrote: >> ever since reading GoF I've predicted that Ron and >> Hermione will date in future books. If I were a betting woman, my >> money would be on R/H... > And I thought your essays were such a comprehensive trashing (if I > may use that word) of the R/H position! > Perhaps you have explained somewhere else how that would come about > (fanfic?), but I would appreciate a pointer, or an explanation. I was just going to ask the same question. If you are convinced that JKR is writing foreshadowing for H/H, and that, while Ron likes Hermione, she doesn't like him, I don't understand why you think Hermione would date Ron, then. Even if you believe they are going to break up quickly. It just doesn't make any sense, unless you think Hermione would feel pressured into dating Ron, which I don't see at all. Hermione has a backbone and no trouble telling Ron what she thinks of his behavior, when need be, so I honestly can't see her date someone she doesn't want to. Do you think Hermione is going to be so angry/distraught over Harry not liking her back, that she will turn to Ron? I really don't see Romance taking such a front spot in HP, and I truly hope JKR will not change to romance as the main plot advancement. And if things get this tangled, JKR would have to spend quite a bit of time sorting out the love life of her characters. Another thing I really don't want to see is Hermione turning into the female character every male close to her wants. Victor, Neville, Ron, Harry, Draco... I have the feeling we'll see just a few more hints in the next book, with a few humorous misunderstandings (at least some people will see them as funny) and probably more boy cluelessness. Once Ron sorts out his feelings, he may even back off because of his insecurities, wanting Hermione to find someone who can "offer her more". He may think he's not "good enough" for her. Maybe he'll think Harry would be the right candidate, while Hermione wants Ron to get over himself and ask her out ;) -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From probono at rapidnet.com Thu Jan 23 17:15:55 2003 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 17:15:55 -0000 Subject: Ron in Cos (was Ron and the Trouble with Veela) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50384 > > From: "golden faile" > > I was wondering, where in COS do we see evidence of Ron having an > interest > > in Hermione? > > > > Rob wrote: > > I always felt that Rons taking up for Hermione when Malfoy called her a > > Mudblood in CoS was indicative of his true feelings for her. > > > > > > > > and theo_kestrel responded: > I rather agree with other readers (I think on the infamous DeathMarch > thread on FictionAlley Park) who note that Ron's defense of Hermione > and his abortive attack on Malfoy in CoS is consistent with his > behavior when Malfoy insults his sister, insults his mother, insults > his family in general, or insults Harry. ________________________________________________________ Now me! I also agree with this assessment. Ron's reaction here is nothing new and very consistant with he character as a whole. I'd also like to add that his father appears to handle things the same way (re: Malfoy and Arthur 'slugging' it out in the bookstore. Like father, like son, they say! -Tanya (who knows she should stop posting now before the puns get out of hand) From golden_faile at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 17:16:58 2003 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 09:16:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Ron in Cos, Draco in PoA. In-Reply-To: <036a01c2c300$c25a0150$0301a8c0@Frodo> Message-ID: <20030123171658.29648.qmail@web41102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50385 heiditandy wrote: It's one of the reasons why I see the merits of a Farmer In The Dell approach, although slightly different from Penny's, as she doesn't include Draco in her mix. Of course, I do hate the "everybody loves 'Mione!" approach I see in some fanfics (although absolutely not many, or all!) where every single male at Hogwarts realises that she is womanly perfection, but wouldn't it be magnificent in terms of plotting (and there's some canon basis for all of this) if Ron, still crushing, is stuck in his GoF phase for another book or two, and unable to make a step to tell her how he feels, and she, in the meantime, sees that Snape is trying to play the mentor to Draco and lead him away from following Lucius' footsteps and becomes friendly with him - this son of a Death Eater who also has a crush on her...? There's an element of cheezy melodrama about it, I admit, but it does create a multilayered conflict situation without involving Harry, who, IMHO, will be too busy in the next 2.5 books getting ready to save the world to *really* spend much time meeting his own romantic needs. Oh my gosh! I just said that in another post last night(the part about Harry being too busy for romance)! Interesting theory Heidi... of course I have come to be quite obsessed w/ Draco so....any chance to redeem him and I'd be quite pleased. Darn that Cassie! It's all her fault! Laila Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pennylin at swbell.net Thu Jan 23 17:59:39 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 17:59:39 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ron and Hermione do TOO banter! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50386 Hi all -- Before I get to Angua's latest points about "bantering," let me just say a huge "ME TOO" to Amy Z's post about how the ambiguity in the shipping is quite distinguishable from the other revelations (such as Quirrel or Crouch Jr., etc.). I can't add much more than "me too," so I'll just put it here. The shipping ambiguities will always be somewhat ambiguous. It's not as though the characters can be shown to be in love since PS/SS .... they will change as they mature. I also don't buy the notion that the ships have been "destined" since PS/SS (Ginny as the first girl Harry sees and Hermione's interaction with Ron over the smudged nose). >> Ron goes to the Yule Ball with Padma -- does Hermione have a problem > with that? Well, we don't see anything at first, but then there is > the incident when Ron is bragging to Padma (who is suddenly a lot > more interested in him) after the Second Task, and Hermione rudely > shuts him up. I doubt that this is because Ron is talking to Padma specifically. She was probably just tired of his theatric and highly-embellished rendering of the 2nd Task, and she called him on it (rightly). > > Ron makes insensitive remarks about dating pretty girls -- does > Hermione mind? Yes, very much. She'd mind if Harry had made the same comment, IMHO. > > Ron makes an incredibly tactless remark, "You *are* a girl!" -- and > what does Hermione do? She says, "Just because YOU haven't spotted > I'm a girl, Ron, doesn't mean nobody else has!" Nope. She says, "Well-spotted" (acidly). The comment you quoted was actually in response to his accusation that she had lied to Neville to get out of a date with him. > > When he went into the Veela > trance -- "Honestly" both times, with tutting and arm pulling. The arm-pulling relates to *Harry.* > > When Harry asked her if she wouldn't rather go to Hogsmeade with Ron -> - she blushed. Yeah! You know why? Because Harry caught on to her subterfuge. She had hoped to force the boys into meeting and talking in Hogsmeade, but Harry was too smart for her. > > When Ron's mother snubbed her -- she was hurt, but didn't say > anything. And this is R/H evidence, *How* precisely? > > When she heard that he had asked out another girl -- she was very > angry and taunted him. She wasn't angry *because* he asked out another girl. She wasn't actually even *angry* at that point. *Amused.* Highly, highly amused I'd say. > > > Do you think that she would have let Harry get away with saying > what Ron > > said? I really can't even begin to imagine that -- it would be > totally > > uncharacteristic of her. > > Angua: I certainly don't think she would have looked as if he had slapped> her and spoken with a quivering voice, or blushed so deeply that she was the same color as Parvati's robes, or stormed off. We've certainly never *seen* Hermione respond to Harry like that. Well, your subjective judgment about "doubting" whether Hermione would have the exact same reaction is not terribly proveable. Fortunately for the H/H'ers, we don't have to see what it would be like if Harry and Hermione were mean to each other, but we can assume that Hermione would react similarly if he *was* mean to her. > On BANTERING, Angua again: > Oh, I SO disagree, and I don't know any way to argue this except > quotation. Here are some examples of what I consider to be > successful, two-sided bantering (sorry about length! -- but this is > probably the main reason we R/Hers so love our ship): I'm actually very glad that you provided all these quotes, because in many cases, it can be easily shown to just be dialogue, not banter; in other cases, it's not 2-sided; and in almost all cases, it really doesn't qualify for what the dictionary says banter is (and doesn't, IMHO, support precursor to romance conclusions). For reference, "banter" is "playful teasing" or "witty repartee" (which takes 2 people incidentally): > > Here's one where Ron feeds Hermione the straight line: > > "And you could ask your parents if they know who Flamel is," said > Ron. "It'd be safe to ask them." > > "Very safe, as they're both dentists," said Hermione. I don't think Ron meant to *feed* Hermione a line there. I think he was *serious* .... and Hermione just happens to have a sense of humor. > Here's one where they do a quick-fire Pat and Mike routine: > > Speaking quietly so tht no one else would hear, Harry told the other > two about Snape's sudden, sinister desire to be a Quidditch referee. > > "Don't play," said Hermione at once. > > "Say you're ill," said Ron. > > "Pretend to break your leg," Hermione suggested. > > "Really break your leg," said Ron. They are talking to Harry ..... *and* it's a serious situation. You don't seriously consider this *banter*, do you? > > > Here's one where Hermione feeds Ron the straight line: > > "So you mean the Stone's only safe as long as Quirrell stands up to > Snape?" said Hermione in alarm? > > "It'll be gone by next Tuesday," said Ron. This isn't even funny and it certainly isn't *teasing* or *playful.* ::::looks puzzled::::: > > Most Potente Potions?" she repeated suspiciously, trying to take the > note from Hermione; but Hermione wouldn't let go. > > "I was wondering if I could keep it," she said breathlessly. > > "Oh, come on," said Ron, wrenching it from her grasp and thrusting it > at Madam Pince. "We'll get you another autograph. Lockhart'll sign > anything if it stands still long enough." Again, this is one-sided funny. Ron's line *is* funny, but Hermione is not engaging in repartee here. She's serious about wanting to hang on to that note. I'd give this one a thumbs-down on the old banter-meter too. > > "No," said Hermione shortly. "Have either of you seen my copy of > Numerology and Gramatica?" > > "Oh, yeah, I borrowed it for a bit of bedtime reading," said Ron, but very quietly. Hermione didn't even *hear* this line, let alone respond back with a witty retort. She was quite stressed at the time. If anything, it's Ron and Harry engaging in banter here. :--) > > "I went to see Professor McGonagall this morning, just before > breakfast. I've decided to drop Muggle Studies." > > "But you passed your exam with three hundred and twenty percent!" > said Ron. > > "I know," sighed Hermione, "but I can't stand another year like this > one...." > > "...Yeah, I've been thinking about them too," said Ron. "Harry, > you've got to come and stay with us. I'll fix it up with Mum and Dad, > then I'll call you. I know how to use the fellytone now --" > > "A telephone, Ron," said Hermione. "Honestly, *you* should take > Muggle Studies next year...." Again, Hermione's line is *funny* ..... but it's not exactly rapid- fire banter between the two of them, is it? Looks more like *dialogue* to me, with Hermione getting a funny line. > > > "Come off it," said Ron, starting to laugh. "Durmstrang's got to be > about the same size as Hogwarts -- how are you going to hide a great > big castle?" > > "But Hogwarts is hidden," said Hermione, in surprise. "Everyone knows > that... well, everyone who's read Hogwarts, A History, anyway." > > "Just you, then," said Ron. This might be "banter" if Hermione came back with a witty retort or had smiled or "grinned guiltily" (as she does when she and Harry engage in some banter over her helping him solve the First Task). But as it stands, I'd not say this qualifies either. > > Here's a nice one: > > "Well, at least the skrewts are small," said Ron as they made their > way back up to the castle for lunch an hour later. > > "They are now," said Hermione in an exasperated voice, "but once > Hagrid's found out what they eat, I expect they'll be six feet long." > > "Well, that won't matter if they turn out to cure seasickness or > something, will it?" said Ron, grinning slyly at her. > "You know perfectly well I only said that to shut Malfoy up," said > Hermione. "As a matter of fact I think he's right. The best thing to > do would be to stamp on the lot of them before they start attacking us all." Now, *this* is banter. There's rapid-fire back-and-forth, teasing of each other. The "toast" example I snipped off is also reasonably close to what I would call banter. > > "Hello," she said, "I've just finished!" > > "So have I!" said Ron triumphantly, throwing down his quill. > > Hermione sat down, laid the things she was carrying in an empty > armchair, and pulled Ron's predictions toward her. > > "Not going to have a very good month, are you?" she said sardonically > as Crookshanks curled up in her lap. > > "Ah well, at least I'm forewarned," Ron yawned. > > "You seem to be drowning twice," said Hermione. > > "Oh am I?" said Ron, peering down at his predictions. "I'd better > change one of them to getting trampled by a rampaging hippogriff." > > "Don't you think it's a bit obvious you've made these up?" said > Hermione. > > "How dare you! said Ron, in mock outrage. "We've been working like > house-elves here!" > > Hermione raised her eyebrows. > > "It's just an expression!" said Ron hastily. I think this one starts off as a bit of banter, but the "working like house elves" comment is a very bigoted statement, and I'm not so sure that Hermione completely buys Ron's hasty retreat. > I snipped off the SPEW example, as I think that's just plain old dialogue myself. > If JKR intends Hermione to end up with Harry, she should NOT be > giving her this kind of chemistry with Ron. If she intends Hermione to end up with Ron, she probably ought to cut back a bit on the negative descriptive words she uses for their interaction. If she continues to stress words like "savagely," "impatiently," "sputtered indignantly," "acidly," "coldly," "angrily," etc., she might give us the impression that Ron and Hermione really don't interact very positively during their "bantering." I agree with Ebony -- if this is the standard for "bantering," then we'll be happy to provide several examples of Harry and Hermione interaction that would qualify. Penny From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 18:09:53 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 10:09:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron in Cos (was Ron and the Trouble with Veela) In-Reply-To: <20030123165146.95554.qmail@web41103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030123180953.62761.qmail@web20009.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50387 --- golden faile wrote: > > > Robert Gonzalez wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "golden faile" > I was wondering, where in COS do we see evidence of > Ron having an interest > in Hermione? > > me: > I always felt that Rons taking up for Hermione when > Malfoy called her a > Mudblood in CoS was indicative of his true feelings > for her. > > Laila: > > Could be... but let me ask you this. If someone > insults one of your best friends wouldn't you come > to their rescue? > > > > Laila > But this wasn't just one incident. When Hermione was petrified and Malfoy made the comment about wishing she'd been killed and the bet the next one would be (pg 267 paperback US ed) he said he was going to kill Draco with his bare hands. And, although Harry is probably upset, the text gives no indication of that. And Ron kept trying to get loose from Harry and Dean for a while. Harry didn't come to the rescue of one of his best friends. Actually, I take that back; he came to the rescue of Ron. Who knows what Snape would've done to him. But Ron's action wasn't in defense of anyone. It couldn't help Hermione. It was just an emotional reaction. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From golden_faile at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 18:23:27 2003 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 10:23:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron in Cos (was Ron and the Trouble with Veela) In-Reply-To: <20030123180953.62761.qmail@web20009.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030123182327.25452.qmail@web41109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50388 Rebecca Stephens wrote: --- golden faile wrote: > > > Robert Gonzalez wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "golden faile" > I was wondering, where in COS do we see evidence of > Ron having an interest > in Hermione? > > me: > I always felt that Rons taking up for Hermione when > Malfoy called her a > Mudblood in CoS was indicative of his true feelings > for her. > > Laila: > > Could be... but let me ask you this. If someone > insults one of your best friends wouldn't you come > to their rescue? > > Rebecca: But this wasn't just one incident. When Hermione was petrified and Malfoy made the comment about wishing she'd been killed and the bet the next one would be (pg 267 paperback US ed) he said he was going to kill Draco with his bare hands. And, although Harry is probably upset, the text gives no indication of that. And Ron kept trying to get loose from Harry and Dean for a while. Harry didn't come to the rescue of one of his best friends. Actually, I take that back; he came to the rescue of Ron. Who knows what Snape would've done to him. But Ron's action wasn't in defense of anyone. It couldn't help Hermione. It was just an emotional reaction. Laila: Ron is always reacting emotionally. This si nothing new. Laila ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com Yahoo! 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Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From snorth at ucla.edu Thu Jan 23 18:25:51 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 10:25:51 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore, Snap and Fudge References: Message-ID: <002101c2c30c$dc859100$d3447442@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 50389 Tom: > "How is it that every DADA teacher for the last four years has been > of questionable character? Did you know that Quirrell was a supporter > of You-Know-Who? That Lockhart couldn't even cast a spell to stop > pixies? Remus Lupin? Yeah, he was a WEREWOLF that almost attacked a > student AND a teacher! And who would have though we'd hear from Barty > Crouch, Jr. again? Wasn't he in Azkaban? No? He impersonated Mad-Eye > Moody for a whole year? Hey wait... weren't Moody and Dumbledore good > friends? How'd Dumbledore fall for it? > > Maybe one mistake, maybe two in hiring teachers, after all, no one's > perfect. But FOUR loons hired at the school in four years? Our kids > are supposed to be SAFE at Hogwarts, not in the company of You-Know- > Who's supporters and other crazies. > > And what about The Triwizard Tournament? Oh, what a disgrace to the > Ministry. Barty Crouch, Sr.: dead, ON the Hogwarts grounds. Barty > Crouch, Jr.: dead, but hey, he was supposed to be in Azkaban anyways. > This kid was able to infiltrate Hogwarts, was able to masquerade as a > teacher and as an auror, was able to trick the Goblet of Fire into > accepting two champions from Hogwarts, and was able to turn the > Triwizard Cup into a Portkey? A student DIED because of all of > this? > > Now we look like fools in front of the whole wizarding world. > > And speaking of You-Know-Who, where does this Dumbledore get off, > scaring my kids with his stories of You-Know-Who's return? Hogwash. > There's no proof of that at all. Says who, anyways? Who, Harry > Potter?! Give me a break: we can't be expected to believe him - he's > out of his mind! Haven't you been reading the Daily Prophet? Poor > kid. Too much trauma, manipulative girlfriends, all that. Tough luck. > Now my kid is having nightmares about Death Eaters. > > And anyways, look at the facts: all Harry Potter is doing is re- > accusing a bunch of ex-Death Eaters who were exonerated years ago. > So he can read his History of Magic testbook! So what! Leave them > alone. After all, Lucius and Narcissa Malfoy are upstanding members > of our community. They make large donations to St. Mungo's. > > I even heard that Dumbledore threatened the Minister of Magic himself > after the whole debacle. Can you believe it? > > And that Harry Potter? My kids say that Dumbledore openly favors > him, even though he's as much of a rule breaker as his father. Let > the kid play for the Quidditch team as a first year! Yep. Helped them > to win the House Cup repeatedly, with "special" headmaster points > awarded after the whole competition was supposed to be done and over > with. And you know that scar? Dumbledore KNEW the whole time that > his scar hurts him, poor kid: he's got delusions of You-Know-Who all > over the place, he's even had several fits in class. This could be a > safety issue. A health issue. > > All under Dumbledore's watch? HE'S supposed to be the great > headmaster? > > And now, now he wants us to talk to those violent giants? Isn't it > bad enough that he's got one on the Hogwarts staff? > > He wants to get RID of the dementors? Who's going to secure > Azkaban? Who's going to keep us safe? > > He's been cavorting with that crazy Arabella Figg, with that senile > old Mundungus Fletcher from the Ministry... didn't that Fletcher even > try to scam the Ministry for some lost tent that he never had? > > And STILL Dumbledore's got dealings with the werewolf? > > I tell you, the man is losing it in his old age. I thought I'd seen > it all. Sure, it's a shame. He was a great wizard in his day. > Defeated that Grindelwald. Ahh, too bad... everything wanes at some > point. > > All we'd need now is something to break the camel's back. Could you > imagine if it turned out that he's been in close contact with the > notorius Sirius Black, an escapee from Azkaban. Or maybe that he > helped a violent, student-attacking hippogriff to ESCAPE? > > You know what? Maybe we shouldn't have placed so much trust in him. > Maybe we need to get some new management at the school. I'm not sure > that my kids are safe there anymore. Maybe we should contact some of > the governors on the board and have them take action..." Wow, that was great! I have a question though- how many people actually know that Lockhart was a complete moron? Besides anyone who's ever met him, I mean. The general wizarding public has no idea he's a liar and a fake, at least not from what I've read in the canon. And as for Crouch Jr. escaping Azkaban and masquerading as Moody, well, as far as we know, the only person who knows about it outside of the regulars is Fudge- and we know Rita Skeeter won't be writing articles any time soon. Dumbledore could probably be forgiven for Quirrel- I was always under the impression that he had been working at Hogwarts for at LEAST a year before SS/PS, so I don't think he was evil when he was hired. -Scott From snorth at ucla.edu Thu Jan 23 18:39:20 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 10:39:20 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] PoA question and Sirius References: Message-ID: <002f01c2c30e$be575c70$d3447442@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 50390 kermit13166 at yahoo.com : > I have a question that is bugging me that perhaps someone can help me > with. In PoA, Sirius tells Harry that he was the one who sent the > Firebolt....10 yrs worth of gifts etc... My question is two > fold...One-how did he get to Gringotts to get his money out without > being seen and second Sirius said he gave Crookshanks the > order....Would no one find it odd that a cat delivers such an order? > Just wondering.... Well, I'll answer the easy part first. I don't think a wizard would consider it odd if a cat delivered an order for goods/services. Okay, maybe *odd* but not "Cat delivering an order of galvanized pipe, lumber, and nails to the local hardware store" odd. Only odd in that it was a cat, and not an owl. As for how he managed to get his money out of Gringotts. Well, really JKR only knows, but I can make wild shots in the dark. I'd just have to guess that there is some sort of Wizarding Credit (most canon evidence would indicate that this is not true, but I said it was a shot in the dark, didn't I?). Or maybe he sent Crookshanks with his key, and a note to the goblins to retrieve X galleons and give them to the cat. He also could have dressed like a hag and waltzed into Gringotts and gotten it himself. I have a feeling that the Goblins will just give let you into any vault you want (well, the key opened ones) assuming you have the key. Plus, I'm guessing that Goblins have a privacy policy thing going on- so Sirius could have walked into the bank, gotten his gold, and assuming the only person that saw him were Gringotts goblins, he wouldn't have had any problems. It's anyone's guess, really. -Scott (who still thinks that wizard credit wouldn't be the worst solution) From urbana at charter.net Thu Jan 23 18:50:23 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:50:23 -0000 Subject: Ron and the Trouble with Veela, and the SHIPping wars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50391 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Erica " wrote: > I thought that the Veela episode at the World Cup (Harry vs Ron's > ability to resist) was a foreshadowing of their respective reactions > to the Imperious Curse in Fake!Moody's DADA class. > This makes sense to me too. Ron does seem to be, how shall I say this, highly *suggestible*, whereas Harry's mind seems to be able to resist a lot of external influences. I'd bet Ron could be easily hypnotized (hypnotism being a benign version of the Imperius Curse) while Harry could pretty easily resist hypnotism - unless it was a Dementor doing the hypnotizing... It will be interesting to see whether and how much Ron's suggestibility and Harry's ability to resist play into future plot lines (after seeing Harry resist Imperio in the graveyard scene, it would be hard to imagine what could force him to submit...) As for the current SHIPping wars on this list, I simultaneously enjoy reading them and marvel at the lengths to which people will go to try to convince others of the rightness of their SHIPs. I had no opinion about anything SHIPpy until after POA, when I started to think in terms of H/Hr. [I still think in terms of H/Hr despite the Ron--->Hermione "clues" in GOF, but I don't plan to go through the books for "proof" because (as in many things) I'm just operating on my own gut feeling.] But as Penny mentioned, I think Harry will be extremely busy with world-saving for at least the next 2.5 books, so I don't see him hooking up with anyone seriously until near the end of Book 7, if then [and I don't wish to contaminate this list with fan fic ideas but I think many H/Hr shippers prefer that they don't hook up until post-Hogwarts... which does show up a lot in the fan fics I prefer to read]. IMO SHIPping is all a matter of interpretation, and I like to let the "different strokes for different folks" philosophy apply :-) Anyway, the fact that we are willing to engage in these huge debates about who belongs with whom indicates to me that there are a lot of people who love the HP characters enough that we *wish* they were real people (hey, I'm one of them, guilty as charged). We love these characters as if they were real people, almost as if they were members of our families, and we hope they'll do what *we* think is best for them. It will be interesting to see if any of the characters end up doing things the way we've envisioned them. And now I realize that I really must reserve a copy of OoP... Just my 2 sickles. YMMV of course. Anne U (back to lurking and proto-filking) From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Thu Jan 23 18:54:08 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:54:08 -0000 Subject: A SHIPping discussion manifesto In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50392 Penny wrote: > let me just > say a huge "ME TOO" to Amy Z's post about how the ambiguity in the > shipping is quite distinguishable from the other revelations (such as > Quirrel or Crouch Jr., etc.). I can't add much more than "me too," > so I'll just put it here. The shipping ambiguities will always be > somewhat ambiguous. It's not as though the characters can be shown > to be in love since PS/SS .... they will change as they mature. I > also don't buy the notion that the ships have been "destined" since > PS/SS (Ginny as the first girl Harry sees and Hermione's interaction > with Ron over the smudged nose). I agree completely with this, and what Amy said. However, this was not quite my intent with post 50365. What I am driving at is that I think there are some shipping discussions to be had that, to my knowledge, have not had good coverage in HPFGU. Most shipping analysis in GOF that we see, IMO, is concerned with trying to work out which of the two boys Hermione favours. While it is true that nobody (AFAIK) thinks the characters have been in love since the beginning of PS, it is my opinion that the vast majority of shipping discussion does assert things about the situation in GOF, in a way that could indeed be validated by what we read in later books. I wanted to suggest there are some other directions of enquiry that might be interesting to pursue. The first is that the text might support variant readings in a way that is more than just different reader interpretations. I find it hard to express this without referring to author intent, but then we do have at least one book definitely to come, and two more apparently in the pipeline. Hence the subject line of my previous post. So, your exam question: does the text go out of its way (whatever that means!) to string along opposing shippers? Is the ambiguity in Hermione, JKR, or her readers? The second concerns the implication of one answer, which is approximately the one Amy and Penny give. This is to look at Hermione's choice as essentially undetermined at this stage (ie at any point in the first four books) and look at how events may be shaping her choices. IMO most shipping discussion about specific incidents such as the Yule Ball focuses on what they *reveal* about Hermione's current state of mind. I think it might be an interesting endeavour to looks at how they might *affect* her ongoing state of mind. So, a starter: can you support from the text a shipping position in which Hermione is torn and trying to sort out how she feels? Do you feel that the difficulty of knowing her true feelings is because she conceals them, or because she is still forming them? But I think there are other, more radical, positions than Amy and Penny's, and I would be interested to hear what you all think about that, too. For example, that we have what I think of as a post- modern situation in which we would have two equally valid endings as happens with some books. I hasten to add I'm not against any of the current shipping discussion. I just think there's more and hoped someone might want to discuss it. David From snorth at ucla.edu Thu Jan 23 19:13:48 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:13:48 -0800 Subject: What will come in book 5ish References: <20030123154304.19934.qmail@web40504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003d01c2c313$8ecc3de0$d3447442@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 50393 Kathryn > And, I must have deleted it but at some point there > was something about Harry being REALLY powerful. I > disagree. If Harry was such a powerful wizard, why > did it take him so long to learn the patronus charm? > And how come he can't see anything in the crystal > ball? He has shown that he is not AMAZING at his > practical exams, so I don't see evidence that he has > some sort of stonger magical power or ability than > others. I don't see how Harry could NOT be a powerful wizard. Certainly not at his full potential yet, but still very good for his age. Why did it take him so long to learn the patronus charm? First, ask yourself, how many other 13 year old wizards have learned the patronus charm? We never see anyone else in the series learn the patronus charm, so there's really no reference to go by. All we know is that it's a *very* difficult spell, that quite a few fully trained wizards can't cast. Look at this from perspective: very few adults posess enough writing skill to write a book that's worthy of being published. So if a 13 year old manages to write a book (I'm referring to an adult reading level book- fits with the analogy- Harry certainly wasn't casting a children's patronus), and get it published, we can forgive said 13 year old for having some trouble writing it. Hopefully that analogy makes sense. As far as I can tell, there's no evidence to state that Harry doesn't do well in his classes and exams, at least not conclusively. Let's break it down: Potions: The exception to what I just said- he doesn't do well, but who can blame him? Divination: Harry doesn't take this class seriously, so his performance is irrelevent. DD (or at least McGonagall) would probably fare as well as Harry (unless he has some skills we've yet to see, which is entirely possible). Care of Magical Creatures: We have no reason to believe Harry isn't one of the best students in this class. In fact, I would bet on it. Transfiguration: As far as I can tell, we've seen no real evidence that he's bad in this class, or particularly great. Certainly, he's not at the same level as Hermione, but really he could be anywhere under her. Charms, Herbology, Astronomy: Same as above. (Though, there is some evidence that would suggest he's not bad at charms, once he gets down to concentrating... he summoned his broom from what, a quarter mile away- I'm under the impression that summoning from that range is MUCH harder than what the students were being taught). DADA: My personal bet is that he's at the top of his class in DADA. Disregard his first two years, they have no relevance to this argument. We know in his third year, he got 'top marks' from Lupin on his final exam. Fourth year, Harry didn't take the final, but we have no reason to believe he wouldn't have done well on it. We know he has super-wizard resistance to the Imperius charm. History of Magic: No evidence- I doubt he does well, but then, I doubt that anyone but Hermione does well in this class. Sorry if I missed a class. Honestly, as far as we can tell, Harry is one of the rare people who can get through school without really putting forth a lot of effort. He studies when he has to, but lacks the motivation otherwise. My guess is that his father was the same way, but James had wizard parents who would probably take offense if his grades weren't superb. Harry only has the Dursleys; they could care less if his grades weren't fantastic. (Trust me, I speak from personal experience. A parent to whip you into shape will make a difference; I was the same way in High School, but my mom kicked my butt if I didn't bring home perfect grades. I still didn't study much, but was probably more motivated than Harry.) Anyway, I think if Harry were not a "great wizard" he would have died three books ago, and in every successive book if he had somehow managed to escape death through sheer luck. (yes, I know he had his mother's protection. Remember, there's more to being a wizard than books and cleverness, blah blah blah . . . ) -Scott (who would have had a decent score on his NEWTs- could have been better, but he was out playing Quidditch instead of studying) From baringer2k at aol.com Thu Jan 23 16:30:43 2003 From: baringer2k at aol.com (baringer2k at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:30:43 -0500 Subject: Wizard's Life-Debt (was PoA question and Sirius) Message-ID: <6DB55C89.20E55976.0E5231BB@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50394 Perhaps in the Wizarding World an order received by a familiar (a cat, owl, or otherwise) would not be so strange. What I'm wondering about regarding PoA (and which impacts future books) is what Harry was told at the end when he allowed Wormtail to live. He was told that a life-debt is something a wizard never forgets, and is bound to. Considering how much Rowling loves to give us astounding attention to detail, I'm sure that will come up. I think that, if the situation was darker for Harry at the end of GoF (COULD it have gotten ANY darker??) that Wormtail's obligation would have made itself known. But to what extent must Harry be in danger for that debt to come into play? From kathleen at happ.net Thu Jan 23 17:09:40 2003 From: kathleen at happ.net (happybean98 ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 17:09:40 -0000 Subject: new DADA teacher In-Reply-To: <20030111042556.4805.qmail@web10408.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50395 Kristjan, I like it! Mrs. Weasley for DADA teacher. 1. No kids at home, 2. Definitely would horrify Ron, 3. Would horrify Ron even more if Fleur was Mrs. Weasley's assistant. That would be a situation ripe for humor. 4. If poor Arthur got sacked, she would be able to provide an income. 5. She definitely qualifies as one of Harry's admirers. 6. As far as having experience with the dark arts, let's not forget that wonderful advice to Ginny about the Riddle Diary: (CoS Chapter 18 p. 329)"Ginny!" said Mr. Weasley, flabbergasted. "Haven't I taught you anything? What have I always told you? Never trust anything that can think for itself if you can't see where it keeps its brain? Why didn't you show the diary to me, or YOUR MOTHER?(emphasis mine) A suspicious object like that, it was clearly full of Dark Magic-" Yes, I am now fully ensconced in the Mrs. Weasley for DADA teacher camp now. Kathleen From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 18:49:45 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 10:49:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] PoA question and Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030123184945.44316.qmail@web40502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50396 --- "kermit13166 " wrote: > I have a question that is bugging me that perhaps > someone can help me > with. In PoA, Sirius tells Harry that he was the one > who sent the > Firebolt....10 yrs worth of gifts etc... My question > is two > fold...One-how did he get to Gringotts to get his > money out without > being seen and second Sirius said he gave > Crookshanks the > order....Would no one find it odd that a cat > delivers such an order? > Just wondering.... In the wizarding world, maybe it wouldn't seem weird for an animal to do this. They may have thought it was an animagus choosing not to take their human form at the time. Or, since I believe it was a mail in thing, she may have just taken it up to the school owlery and an owl took it. Also, Sirius said he had money taken from his Gringotts account, he didn't actually say he went to Gringotts and took out money. Maybe the order form had a place to put your vault number and the money was just removed for him and no one ever had to know it was Sirius Black's vault. ~Kathryn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Jan 23 19:38:24 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:38:24 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What will come in book 5ish In-Reply-To: <003d01c2c313$8ecc3de0$d3447442@xyrael> References: <20030123154304.19934.qmail@web40504.mail.yahoo.com> <003d01c2c313$8ecc3de0$d3447442@xyrael> Message-ID: <163269106173.20030123113824@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 50397 Hi, Thursday, January 23, 2003, 11:13:48 AM, Scott wrote: > Why did it take him so long to learn the patronus charm? First, ask > yourself, how many other 13 year old wizards have learned the patronus > charm? We never see anyone else in the series learn the patronus > charm, so > there's really no reference to go by. All we know is that it's a > *very* > difficult spell, that quite a few fully trained wizards can't cast. While I agree that Harry is probably an outstanding wizard, he also has a much stronger motivation to make him take on certain tasks. If another wizard kid were threatened with death, they might put quite a bit more effort into learning, for example, the Patronus charm. The others aren't really given a chance to learn this spell, and of course, Harry is the main character, so it wouldn't do for him to fail at too many things . We also don't know how much of Harry's talent stems from his encounter with Voldemort, when Harry received his scar. What I want to know is, why Voldemort is afraid of Dumbledore. Did the two have a face to face meeting and Dumbledore defeated V? Or does is have to do with Dumbledore doing away with Grindelwald? Is anything more in depth mentioned in canon? -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From fausts at attglobal.net Thu Jan 23 19:41:04 2003 From: fausts at attglobal.net (anguaorc ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:41:04 -0000 Subject: SHIP: That Darned Kiss--The Problem With Reading R/H in GoF In-Reply-To: <013d01c2c226$539a6b90$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50398 I have always suspected that it would be this way. Posting an opinion on this list is very much like cutting a head off a hydra. I tried to respond to everyone's objections, but I missed this one: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Penny Linsenmayer wrote: > That is a good point, actually. OTOH, as you point out, she knows it isn't true and that Harry doesn't want it to be true, so I can see where her behavior is *also* consistent with her having a secret crush on him but knowing that it's her little secret. Yes it is, if Hermione has a very great ability to control her emotions and her author does not wish to allow us to know what she is thinking. JKR could easily have given us some hint of Hermione's feelings without letting Harry know. Instead, this is just one of many missed opportunities for foreshadowing H/H. Penny: > I do have a question for Angua and other R/H'ers at this juncture actually. JKR has made it "hit-you-over-the-head-with-a-baseball- bat" obvious that Ron likes Hermione. Again, even Clueless!Harry understands this. If she was definitely going for R/H, why hasn't she taken the same approach with Hermione? Might it be because it's not going to be an easy road to end up R/H? If it was obvious that they both liked each other, there'd be no tension or conflict, yes? So, there will be some tension or conflict in this before it all gets resolved. Me: Yes. Obviously, one doesn't want Ron or Hermione getting together too fast or too easily -- where would be the fun in that? She needed to create a situation that generates maximum frustration and hurt feelings on both sides. This is the situation as I see it: Ron likes Hermione and shows it, but doesn't realize it (yet). Hermione likes Ron and realizes it, but doesn't show it (much). This allows Hermione to be hurt, frustrated, and impatient over Ron's stupidity and allows Ron a sort of baffled anger and frustration, unmitigated by any sign of Hermione's affections. It's good stuff, and, if it weren't for my involvement in shipping wars, I'd love to see it prolonged for quite a while. Penny: > That's the other thing I don't get about the R/H position. JKR had an unhappy marriage with lots of "sparks" and arguments and tension. It ended badly. I'm not so sure that "tension and sparks" is really her cup of tea. Me: I'm queasy about even bringing up JKR's personal life, but I'll just dip my toe into it. As best I can tell, we know of five relationships in JKR's life which might influence her decisions: 1 - Her parents' marriage, which had "sparks" and arguments, and was (mostly) happy. 2 - Her friendship with Sean Harris, Ron's inadvertent model, which I have never heard had either "sparks" or arguments, and which she still treasures today. 3 - Her longtime relationship with the boyfriend she lived with after college, which we know contained at least one "blazing row," and which she ended because she "came to see they didn't have a future together." 4 - Her first marriage, which is said to have been EXTREMELY sparky and argumentative, and which ended very badly. 5 - Her current marriage, about which I personally know nothing at all. For at least two relationships, she seems to have drawn to, err, tempestuousness. Whether the fact that they failed has led her to conclude that tempestuousness is bad, whether she still finds tempestuousness romantic, but has concluded that TOO MUCH of it is bad, or whether she has a psychological need to re-write a more successful version of her own past... frankly, I have no idea. The *only* meaningful clue I can find in her works is that the Weasley marriage appears to be both tempestuous and successful. The Dursley marriage appears to be calm and successful, but I don't regard that as a meaningful clue. Penny: >But, more importantly, since she's said that she wants to realistically depict these kids and their confrontation with "real" evil (not sugar-coated) and have them age believably, do you really think she'd want to send a message that teenage romance works out to be happily ever-after? In real life, it just doesn't. This argument has no resonance with me. Possibly this is because I am happily married to my teenage romance, twenty-two years later. But I can't imagine JKR saying to herself, "now, let's see, I must make sure that nobody who starts dating at fifteen is still together at the end of the series -- otherwise it'll be unrealistic!" I reiterate -- as we R/Hers have said approximately a million times -- Ron's and Hermione's relationship is just a subplot. It is Harry's relationships which will set the tone for the series. Penny: > And, back to that JKR chat where it was asked if Hermione liked Ron as more than a friend. If it's so *obvious,* why did JKR phrase her answer that way? When it's obvious and/or has no implications for a later plot, JKR answers chat questions with straight-forward answers ("In Gryffindor, naturally!" as one example when asked about Hagrid's house ... and Lily's house). Me: I don't know. Possible reasons: 1 - She might have thought the questioner had not yet read GoF (since she didn't know the obvious) or that some of the chat participants hadn't, and didn't want to spoil it. 2 - She might have been annoyed or impatience at being asked a question to which the books already supplied the answer, and answered like a teacher, "go look it up for yourself." 3 - She might be incorrigibly obscure and cryptic, and congenitally unable to give a straight answer when an ambiguous one would be much more fun. Whatever the reason, my observation of JKR tells me that, however cagey she might be, she tells the truth. If she says the answer is in GoF, she means that the answer is in GoF. Penny: > Back to all these blushes, Angua plowed on: > > <<<< to me. She wasn't blushing at the second task, when Krum actually > invited her to Bulgaria and told her he'd never felt like this before.>>>> > > How do you know? You weren't there. Neither was I. Neither was Harry. :--) Harry was, at a distance: ***** Harry could see Madam Pomfrey fussing over Hermione, Krum, Cedric, and Cho, all of whom were wrapped in thick blankets. ***** And Harry was certainly there afterwards: ***** She (Madam Pomfrey) seized Harry and pulled him over to Hermione and the others... ***** Sure, Krum could have said all this, Hermione blushed, and the blush faded, before Harry got there. But if JKR had wanted to show Hermione blushing, there was an opportunity for Harry to see it. Penny: > Actually, you might avoid a friend's eye if you knew he had romantic feelings for you, whether you return those feelings or not. If she *does* return his feelings, then your analysis is fine. If she doesn't, she could just as easily be avoiding his eye because it makes her uncomfortable knowing how he feels and knowing that *eventually* she'll have to let him down. *You* might. I wouldn't. I would look him straight in the eye and tell him about Krum, giving him the bad news as soon as possible. I would *never* act like Hermione does, and refuse to tell him whether or not I had accepted Krum's invitation, leaving him in suspense for months. If Hermione knows Ron likes her and doesn't like him, I think that is cruel. Of course, if she likes him and is frustrated because he won't admit he likes her, I don't think it's cruel at all, but perfectly understandable. :) Angua before: > <<<< making up imaginary evidence? We R/H shippers like to imagine the > touching scenes when Hermione woke Ron up after the chess game and > when Ron was there as Hermione woke up from being Petrified, but we > don't usually unleash our sappy fantasies onto the unsuspecting > general public. I wish you would use the same restraint.>>>>>>>>> Penny: > Ron was there when Hermione woke up? Is that canon? I think not. Here is the canon on which we base our silly, fluffy fantasies (CoS Ch. 18, p. 243-4 British children's version): ***** "Miss Weasley should go up to the hospital wing straight away," Dumbledore interrupted in a firm voice.... ..."You will find that Madam Pomfrey is still awake. She's just giving out the Mandrake juice -- I daresay the Basilisk's victims will be waking up any moment." "So Hermione's OK!" said Ron brightly. "Would you mind taking Professor Lockhart up to the hospital wing, too?" Dumbledore said to Ron. "I'd like a few more words with Harry..." ***** We don't know whether Ron actually got there in time to see Hermione flutter back to life, but he certainly would have seen and talked to her in the hospital wing. Penny: > Looks like black and white text to me too. But, of course, what I see in that text is two teenage friends having a nice time together. It may or may not be a precursor to romance. Me: I agree. Having a nice time together is a *necessary* but not a *sufficient* condition for romance. I was simply trying to show that for R/H, this condition has been met. The problem with H/H is that it's not at all clear that Harry and Hermione *ever* have a nice time together without Ron. After an exhaustive search of all four books, this is the best I've ever been able to find: - They both laugh in glee when Draco gets a detention during the Norbert send-off. - Hermione is proud and delighted when Harry finally learns to Summon. - Harry forces Hermione to silently admit, with a guilty grin, that her helping him in the First Task was against the rules. - They exchange a grin at Krum's mangling of Hermione's name at the Yule Ball. To me, this is a pitiful total after four years of being very close friends. It is *much* easier than this to see that Ron and Hermione have nice times alone together, and as for Ron and Harry -- I could list examples enough to fill up a Digest. This actually causes me to conclude that -- though Harry and Hermione can be very good friends as long they have Ron around to keep things light and humorous -- alone together, they're apparently too serious or too ill-suited to enjoy each other's company. Since I value laughter and good fellowship VERY highly in a relationship, this would have to change before I could be happy with an H/H matchup. Angua From manawydan at ntlworld.com Thu Jan 23 19:30:12 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:30:12 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Petunia as squib References: <1043250119.4414.39600.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <004301c2c315$d981fee0$5f4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 50399 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:58:46 -0800 (PST) From: Maria Kirilenko Subject: Re: Petunia as Squib >I think that, however alike their magical capabilities, squibs and Muggles are not the same thing. > >The definition of a Muggle, I believe, is someone who has no magical blood in him and cannot do >magic. A Squib cannot do magic either, but he has magical blood. >Again, Lily was called a Muggle-born witch, which made her parents Muggles. That way, >Petunia can't be a squib - she is a Muggle like her parents. > >But I think that since Lily is a witch, there must be something in her family that made her so, >which in its turn can give Petunia and/or Dudley and/or Dudley's future offspring a better chance >of being magical too, than somebody from a completely wizarding family. I tend to think that the difference between muggle and squib is cultural rather than genetic - because a squib is brought up in wizard world, they know the score and can survive there far better than if a muggle were to be dropped in the deep end. Though there's a question here about mixed marriages. Hagrid says at one point that almost all wizards marry muggles, otherwise they would have died out. Now I also think that Hagrid is prone to hyperbole so I'd take that remark with a pinch of salt. But it does strongly suggest that the wizard gene is widespread in muggle world and that possible wizard children could pop up anywhere. But is the non-magical child of a mixed marriage a squib (because of the magical parent) or a muggle (because of the non-magical one)? cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From kewiromeo at aol.com Thu Jan 23 20:01:15 2003 From: kewiromeo at aol.com (kewiromeo at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:01:15 EST Subject: What will come in book 5ish Message-ID: <1de.1b32db.2b61a40b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50400 Kathryn wrote: kewiromeo at aol.com wrote: "As well, I think that Harry's fan will be Mr. Diggory. " Kathryn:? As I said in a post, maybe even yesterday...why would Mr. Diggory's death be hard to write, we've seen him what? 3 times in the entire series (The Weasley's fire place, the Quidditch World Cup, and after Cedric's death).? He is so much less significant to the plot than Cedric was.? Since JKR specifically said that this book would have a hard to write death, I assume that it must be someone more significant to the plot than Cedric was. kewiromeo at aol.com wrote: "I don't see what you need an owl for in school anyways besides the mail. I don't think I would appreciate being turned into a pumpkin or poisoned." Kathryn:Isn't getting mail important enough? I'm pretty sure that's one of the main reasons kids have owls.? I don't think the school would have an Owlery if alot of students didn't want to bring owls.? And what are you talking about being turned into a pumpkin? kewiromeo at aol.com wrote: "No Weasleys will die in any of the books. No one important will unless it's for a good cause. It would be stupid to kill off anyone except for Dumbledore or Harry." Kathryn: Well *obviously* Harry wouldn't die until book 7, cause it would be sorta hard to have "Harry Potter and the...." without Harry Potter.? And I totally disagree that no one important will die. Voldemort really wants to kill Harry, so if he can't get to Harry, I think he'll probably try to hurt him by harming or killing people close to him.? Of course Harry will be sad if anyone dies in the war, but I seriously doubt JKR is so childish that she'll avoid killing anyone important.? It doesn't add to the story to kill off characters we've only met a couple times. To really affect the story it has to be someone who's usually there, and then isn't. kewiromeo at aol.com wrote: Or, they(Harry and Voldemort) will both have to die at the same time and the WW will be destroyed and Harry will wake up with his parents, no magic, just a happy family. Kathryn: I won't say this is completely impossible, but I think it would be a truely dissapointing ending.? For everything to just be over.? And there would be so many loose ends to tie up.? Would it mean everyone was non-magic now? Would Dumbledore die because he's now a 150 year old muggle?? Would it be like the WW ever existed? Would R/H/H know each other or would it be like none of that ever happened? kewiromeo at aol.com wrote: Or better yet, he will end up in the future. Hermoine and Ron with him. I think that Ron is going to have to find someone else. Hermoine should be with? Harry, and if not, Harry and Cho will have something going on and she will die. Kathryn: Ending up in the future like, we skip ahead to the future, or like "Back to the Future" where they get sent to the future as they are and they're still young and everyone else is old?? And I think that most of the clues point to a H/H friendship and a R/H romance. And, I must have deleted it but at some point there was something about Harry being REALLY powerful.? I disagree.? If Harry was such a powerful wizard, why did it take him so long to learn the patronus charm? And how come he can't see anything in the crystal ball? He has shown that he is not AMAZING at his practical exams, so I don't see evidence that he has some sort of stonger magical power or ability than others. Me again: Now to explain what I meant with the powerful wizard fact is this. If I have a 200 IQ (assuming we all use IQ to test intelegence) and decide to study physics before I learn to read, things will be quite difficult. As well, If I tried to do linear algebra before I tried addition. It doesn't mean that Harry is any less powerful if he has to spend some time working on things. The Patronus charm is far advanced probably past the N.E.W.T.s, so the fact that he even conjured anything his first try and in the end he actualy prduces something shows that there is a little more power than elementary magic. As well, the whose Prioro Incantem at the end of the GoF shows that his power matches Voldermorts. Dumbledore said that Harry had gone shoulder to shoulder with a full grown wizard, not to mention the second most powerful, if not the most powerful, wizard in the world. There has to be something underlying all this that gives Harry such power. He's not book smarts, but he seems to do pretty well with duels and the like. He seems to know how to defend himself, Gryffindor instinct. Think of Hermoine as a witch with a 200 IQ and a 50 WQ (Wizarding Quotient) and Harry with a 150 IQ (he's not stupid) and 500 WQ. The reason why hes not the best student, but he knows how to get the job done. As well, Harry has a 100 PQ (Premonition Quotient) which puts him way ahead of Hermoine and these books are not Hermoine Granger and the Philosopher's Stone. Tzvi of Brooklyn http://hometown.aol.com/kewiromeo/myhomepage/profile.html [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From probono at rapidnet.com Thu Jan 23 20:17:36 2003 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 20:17:36 -0000 Subject: What will come in book 5ish In-Reply-To: <003d01c2c313$8ecc3de0$d3447442@xyrael> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50401 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Scott Northrup" wrote: > >My guess is that his father was the same way, but James had > >wizard parents who would probably take offense if his grades > >weren't superb. Harry only has the Dursleys; they could care > >less if his grades weren't fantastic. (Trust me, I speak from > >personal experience. A parent to whip you into shape will make a > >difference; I was the same way in High School, but my mom kicked > >my butt if I didn't bring home perfect grades. I still didn't > >study much, but was probably more motivated than Harry.) Now me: (Your mom reminds me of Mrs. Weasley! {grin}) Anyhoo, your thoughts just got me thinking...how talented is Draco? I wish I had the books for the exact quotes (I believe they appear in the beginning of CoS, when Lucius and Draco are in Borgin & Burkes). They spend an awful lot of time talking about grades and I got the impression that the only person who's grades topped Draco's was Hermione? Lucius seemed miffed not only that Draco was not head of the class, but possibly more so because Draco was bettered by a Muggle, of all people. And this seems to be a good part of Draco's bitterness towards Hermione too. Just a thought. Wondering what you all think. -Tanya From pkdailey at comcast.net Thu Jan 23 20:13:05 2003 From: pkdailey at comcast.net (Kathy ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 20:13:05 -0000 Subject: Neville in Herbology (was sig. of Neville) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50402 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "probonoprobono " wrote: > It seems to be universally agreed upon that Neville excels in > Herbology. However, the only canon I remember seeing that supports > this statement is that which comes directly from Crouch/Moody's > mouth. If I remember correctly, Professor Sprout herself never > mentions Neville's skills at all, not even once. Nor do I remember > Rowling ever writing any scenes in Herbology that even hints towards > Neville excelling in it. > > > > -Tanya (who knows there's no excuse for terrible puns) Tanya, I am new here, so bare with me... I have just finished reading SS/PS again recently. At the end of the book (page 307 in the scholastic paperback edition) Harry and the rest of the students get their exam results. JKR writes that "Even Neville scraped through, his good Herbology mark making up for his abysmal Potions one." This suggests that Neville has a history of success in Herbology and is clearly his best subject. IMO, I believe that Neville's skills in Herbology may come into play later on in some future plot or sub-plot. I say this because in SS/PS (chapter 13) Neville questions his worthiness to be a Gryffindor (similar to Harry questioning the Sorting Hat in CoS). However, I had been wondering the same thing. Gryffindors are characterized by bravery and courage, hence the Lion. Neville is neither courageous nor brave. Sure, he stood up to HRH and later helped Ron by taking on both Crabbe and Goyle, but he still seemed to me to be cowardly at heart. Upon further reflection, however, I think there is more to Neville than meets the eye. JRK revealed in GoF that his parents were both great aurors and that they had both been tortured by Death Eaters. Although I have no canon to back this up, my feeling is that Neville may have witnessed their torture. He was very upset by Moody's use of the unforgivable curses and JKR alludes to the fact that he was deeply troubled. Having witnessed one's parents being tortured at such a young age (and subsequently losing his parents to insanity) would leave a person scared and afraid. I think that bravery lurks deep inside Neville and that JKR will find a way for Neville to face his fears and overcome them, revealing the "true" Gryffindor that he likely is. After all, sometimes the bravest act can be facing the fear inside... Perhaps future plots may tie in somehow with Neville's talent at Herbology?maybe not. But, IMO I think that Neville will prove himself useful in the fight against Voldemort in some shape or form. This is just speculation (or hope), on my part, but I have a feeling that Neville is going to turn out to be more than a bumbling idiot in the end. Personally, I'd love to see Neville say, "I've had enough!" and let Snape, Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle... even Voldemort have a taste of Neville's pent-up rage. Kathy, finished lurking From heidit at netbox.com Thu Jan 23 20:28:46 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:28:46 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What will come in book 5ish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <03c801c2c31e$08e696c0$0301a8c0@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 50403 Tanya posted: > > ...how talented is Draco? I wish I had > the books for the exact quotes (I believe they appear in the > beginning of CoS, when Lucius and Draco are in Borgin & Burkes). > They spend an awful lot of time talking about grades and I got the > impression that the only person who's grades topped Draco's was > Hermione? Lucius seemed miffed not only that Draco was not head of > the class, but possibly more so because Draco was bettered by a > Muggle, of all people. And this seems to be a good part of Draco's > bitterness towards Hermione too. Just a thought. Wondering what you > all think. You'll find little disagreement on this from me - it seems implicit in that scene that at a minimum, Hermione is the only student with Muggle parentage to achieve marks that are higher than Draco's, although technically, from Lucius' words, it's entirely possible that one or more "pure-blooded" Ravenclaws were higher than Draco - Lucius might not've minded that quite as much. heidi From jprobins at ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 23 20:28:56 2003 From: jprobins at ix.netcom.com (James P. Robinson III) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:28:56 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] PoA question and Sirius In-Reply-To: <20030123184945.44316.qmail@web40502.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030123141154.07213450@popd.ix.netcom.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50404 As the clock struck 10:49 AM 1/23/2003 -0800, Kathryn Wolber took pen in hand and wrote: Also, Sirius said he had >money taken from his Gringotts account, he didn't >actually say he went to Gringotts and took out money. >Maybe the order form had a place to put your vault >number and the money was just removed for him and no >one ever had to know it was Sirius Black's vault. I do not think the goblins would care. Sirius is a convicted murderer, not a bank robber. Gringotts seems to me to be the equivalent of an offshore (or a truly international) bank. I do not believe Gringotts or the goblins that run it are under the authority of the MoM. Canon evidence: Sirius' account had been neither frozen not confiscated, nor apparently was any notification given to the MoM of activity in the account. The merchant need never of known whose money was being spent. Same as paying with cash or a money order. Jim ************************************************************** This electronic message transmission contains information intended solely for use of a specific client and is confidential and/or attorney/client privileged. The information is intended only to be for the use of the individual or entity referenced above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please permanently delete this e-mail from your system, destroy all copies and notify the sender by telephone (512-651-7000 or 210-824-1565), reversing the charges, at your earliest convenience. *************************************************************** From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jan 23 20:28:15 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 20:28:15 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ron and Hermione do TOO banter! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50405 Penny said: >>The shipping ambiguities will always be somewhat ambiguous. It's not as though the characters can be shown to be in love since PS/SS .... they will change as they mature. I also don't buy the notion that the ships have been "destined" since PS/SS (Ginny as the first girl Harry sees and Hermione's interaction with Ron over the smudged nose). << Sorry, I'm not following this. Do you mean that you don't think JKR had worked out the resolution of the "ships" plot thread when she wrote PS/SS? Or do you mean, she had it worked out, but didn't intend anything in the first book to indicate future romantic possibilities, in which case, with this reader, she failed miserably. I don't really see how, if the story does end R/H, anyone who's cognizant of the ending will be able to read PS/SS and not see authorial indications of potential attraction. Note that it's attraction I'm talking about, not liking or love. Pippin From jprobins at ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 23 20:33:40 2003 From: jprobins at ix.netcom.com (James P. Robinson III) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:33:40 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville in Herbology (was sig. of Neville) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030123143141.071ca090@popd.ix.netcom.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50406 As the clock struck 08:13 PM 1/23/2003 +0000, Kathy took pen in hand and wrote: >JRK revealed in GoF that his parents were both great aurors and that >they had both been tortured by Death Eaters. Only Neville's father is stated to have been an auror, not both his parents. Jim P.S.--I am not sure Neville's mother is even named, except as Mrs. Longbottom or Frank's wife or some similar formula. From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Thu Jan 23 20:39:00 2003 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 20:39:00 -0000 Subject: I had a dream.... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50407 Last night, I was sleeping and I had a dream about reading Book 5. Has anyone else ever had this experiance? Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From megalynn44 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 23 20:52:44 2003 From: megalynn44 at hotmail.com (Megalynn S.) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:52:44 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] I had a dream.... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50408 Chris asked; >Last night, I was sleeping and I had a dream about reading Book 5. Has >anyone else ever had this experiance? > Yes! A few weeks before the release date was announced I dream JKR had sent me a special letter detailing what would happen. For some reason Harry and his Friends would be visiting a wizard circus. Isn't that odd? Although now I am curious what a wizard circus would be like. What happened in book 5 in your dream? Megalynn _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Thu Jan 23 21:05:40 2003 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 21:05:40 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] I had a dream.... References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50409 "What happened in book 5 in your dream?"- Megalynn S. I dreamt of an awesome fight with voldemort and Draco getting his just reward for his actions. Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lupinesque at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 21:08:58 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 21:08:58 -0000 Subject: In dreams begin responsibilities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50410 We have a fantastic place to discuss HP dreams and other non- canonical but delightful HP-related experience such as seeing a guy on the metro who looks and acts exactly, but exactly, like Dennis Creevey. It's also the place to find out what spotted dick is, confess how many HP Lego sets you bought after no one gave you one for Christmas, and talk about completely un-HP-related things too. If you aren't using your dream to talk about actual HP occurrences or possibilities, please answer Christopher's question on OTChatter. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPfGU-OTChatter/ See you there! Amy ZigmundFreudGeist From robgonz0 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 21:11:57 2003 From: robgonz0 at yahoo.com (Robert Gonzalez) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:11:57 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron in Cos (was Ron and the Trouble with Veela) References: Message-ID: <00f801c2c324$11332a40$32951c18@satx.rr.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50411 ----- Original Message ----- From: > > As a fan of the H/Hr pairing, my objectivity may be non-existent, but > I rather agree with other readers (I think on the infamous DeathMarch > thread on FictionAlley Park) who note that Ron's defense of Hermione > and his abortive attack on Malfoy in CoS is consistent with his > behavior when Malfoy insults his sister, insults his mother, insults > his family in general, or insults Harry-sorry, I don't have specific > examples to show off-hand(darn books are still packed away); the only > difference this time is that his wand is broken, thus the slugs-it's > not as if Ron CHOSE to cough up slugs for Hermione's honor. It's more > like Ron hears insult-Ron reacts, whether it's the fight in the > Quidditch stands, the slug incident, or any other occasion when Ron's > temper is set off. Now, if I were a R/Hr shipper, I wouldn't be so > quick to bring up this incident as "proof" of Ron's feelings for > Hermione at age...12? His familial relations must be quite odd if > it's so ;). me: Really now! I remember having a crush on someone when I was 12 and I had quite normal familial relations thank you! Yes, Ron hates Malfoy and takes every excuse to try and beat him up. And yes who wouldn't jump to the defense of their best friend, but to me there seemed to be a particular ferocity in this instance. It was also the first time Ron attempted to use magic to attack malfoy. Something he know's he's not good at and know's he has a broken wand to boot. But really I think Ron had a thing for Hermione from the start even in SS. Rob From starropal at hotmail.com Thu Jan 23 20:52:07 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:52:07 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard's Life-Debt (was PoA question and Sirius) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50412 From: baringer2k at aol.com >Perhaps in the Wizarding World an order received by a familiar (a cat, owl, >or otherwise) would not be so strange. > >What I'm wondering about regarding PoA (and which impacts future books) is >what Harry was told at the end when he allowed Wormtail to live. He was >told that a life-debt is something a wizard never forgets, and is bound to. >Considering how much Rowling loves to give us astounding attention to >detail, I'm sure that will come up. I think that, if the situation was >darker for Harry at the end of GoF (COULD it have gotten ANY darker??) that >Wormtail's obligation would have made itself known. But to what extent must >Harry be in danger for that debt to come into play? Well I don't think its a question of how dark the situation is, more like opportunity. See Wormtail is a coward, so if he repays the debt (which I've no doubt he will, or why point it out like that?) it'll be quiet and sneaky. Like, just not reporting Harry if he sees him or quietly releasing Harry while no one is around, allowing Harry to escape. I don't see Wormtail heroically standing up against a dozen DE to repay Harry, ya know? Star Opal _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From srsiriusblack at aol.com Thu Jan 23 21:20:56 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:20:56 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] PoA question and Sirius Message-ID: <1e3.1de11c.2b61b6b8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50413 In a message dated 23/01/2003 11:11:37 Eastern Standard Time, kermit13166 at yahoo.com writes: > I have a question that is bugging me that perhaps someone can help me > with. In PoA, Sirius tells Harry that he was the one who sent the > Firebolt....10 yrs worth of gifts etc... My question is two > fold...One-how did he get to Gringotts to get his money out without > being seen and second Sirius said he gave Crookshanks the > order....Would no one find it odd that a cat delivers such an order? > Just wondering.... In PoA Uk Edition, - which sadly I do not have infront of me, Sirius mentions the vault number. This made me think that perhaps it is the vault number that matters rather than the name on the vault. So, I always believed that a money transfer could be made from one vault to another or to even Quality Quidditch without having to go to Gringotts and give your name, etc... something like the ATM machine or 'online banking'. As for Crookshanks delivering the order... A simple note tied round his neck with the Gringott's account information would have sufficed, as who is to say that an Owl is the only excepted means of post- Sirius uses all kinds of Birds in GoF.... why can't a cat carry an order to the store for you? -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From golden_faile at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 21:27:12 2003 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 13:27:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron in Cos (was Ron and the Trouble with Veela) In-Reply-To: <00f801c2c324$11332a40$32951c18@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20030123212712.66711.qmail@web41101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50414 Robert Gonzalez wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: > > As a fan of the H/Hr pairing, my objectivity may be non-existent, but > I rather agree with other readers (I think on the infamous DeathMarch > thread on FictionAlley Park) who note that Ron's defense of Hermione > and his abortive attack on Malfoy in CoS is consistent with his > behavior when Malfoy insults his sister, insults his mother, insults > his family in general, or insults Harry-sorry, I don't have specific > examples to show off-hand(darn books are still packed away); the only > difference this time is that his wand is broken, thus the slugs-it's > not as if Ron CHOSE to cough up slugs for Hermione's honor. It's more > like Ron hears insult-Ron reacts, whether it's the fight in the > Quidditch stands, the slug incident, or any other occasion when Ron's > temper is set off. Now, if I were a R/Hr shipper, I wouldn't be so > quick to bring up this incident as "proof" of Ron's feelings for > Hermione at age...12? His familial relations must be quite odd if > it's so ;). me: Really now! I remember having a crush on someone when I was 12 and I had quite normal familial relations thank you! Laila: I agree! I remeber being quite young with my first crush! I think it was the first grade. He was the smartest boy in class. Rob: Yes, Ron hates Malfoy and takes every excuse to try and beat him up. And yes who wouldn't jump to the defense of their best friend, but to me there seemed to be a particular ferocity in this instance. It was also the first time Ron attempted to use magic to attack malfoy. Something he know's he's not good at and know's he has a broken wand to boot. But really I think Ron had a thing for Hermione from the start even in SS. Although, I tend to think that it was just the ferocity of the insult that caused Ron to react this way. Malfoy was being particularly vicious with that one. I mean the word in question is just as bad as any racial slur we've ever heard. Laila Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Jan 23 21:46:24 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:46:24 EST Subject: Petunia as Squib Message-ID: <11e.1d198b7b.2b61bcb0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50415 Ffred: >Though there's a question here about mixed marriages. Hagrid says at one >point that almost all wizards marry muggles, otherwise they would have died >out. Sorry. I think this is a case of movie contamination. In the same scene in the book, (Ron belching up slugs) it is Ron himself who tells Hermione that most wizards are now half-bloods. I have always taken this to mean just that most wizards are now of mixed blood, since, technically, someone could be half-blood if the offspring of a witch and wizard both of half-blood. >Now I also think that Hagrid is prone to hyperbole <> Agreed. So is Ron. <> >But is the non-magical child of a mixed marriage a squib (because of the >magical parent) or a muggle (because of the non-magical one)? It's a matter of viewpoint, IMHO. From the WW's standpoint, they might well be some kind of Squib (though I doubt if it is as much a matter of shame as it would be for the offsrping of a witch and wizard to be a Squib). From the Muggle POV, no such concept exists, except for those of us privileged enough to have an insight into the WW. ~Eloise From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jan 23 22:06:11 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 22:06:11 -0000 Subject: Ron in Cos (was Ron and the Trouble with Veela) In-Reply-To: <20030123040620.53596.qmail@web41101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50416 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, golden faile wrote: > I was wondering, where in COS do we see evidence of Ron having an interest in Hermione? < I think the most telling indicator is in ch. 15, Aragog. Ron has been finding reasons not to follow the spiders into the Forbidden Forest. But in DADA, Harry gets angry at Lockhart for sneering at Hagrid and scribbles Ron a note: Let's do it tonight. ******* Ron read the message, swallowed hard, and looked sideways at the empty seat usually filled by Hermione. The sight seemed to stiffen his resolve, and he nodded. ********** It is unambiguously Ron's concern for Hermione, not Hagrid or Harry, that convinces Ron to go through with it. Pippin From starropal at hotmail.com Thu Jan 23 21:15:47 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:15:47 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron and the Trouble with Veela Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50417 Tanya: >Didn't Arthur resist the Veela at the World Cup by covering his ears >during their songs? I vaguely remember him telling Ron and Harry to >cover their ears [sorry, no books here at work, so I can't check]. >If so, that could explain how Arthur (and everybody else in the >stadium) were able to resist the Veela on that night. Right you are: "'Fingers in your ears!' bellowed Mr. Weasley as the Veela started to dance in celebration." (GoF ch 8 page 108, US paperback) Mr. Weasley knew they were Veela when they first came out (he says so) he would have known what to do as opposed to Harry and Ron. >I don't remember any instance in canon where Fleur effects >(in that way) more than one person at a time? Is there? When she's 'turning on the old charm' for Cedric, it also works on Ron. So that's at least two. While it would seem it didn't effect Cedric (seeing he still went with Cho), it was directed at him. (Gof, page 399) Star Opal _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From pkdailey at comcast.net Thu Jan 23 21:50:04 2003 From: pkdailey at comcast.net (Kathy ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 21:50:04 -0000 Subject: What will come in book 5 In-Reply-To: <1de.1b32db.2b61a40b@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50418 > kewiromeo at a... wrote: > "As well, I think that Harry's fan will be Mr. > Diggory. " > > Kathryn: As I said in a post, maybe even > yesterday...why would Mr. Diggory's death be hard to > write, we've seen him what? 3 times in the entire > series (The Weasley's fire place, the Quidditch World > Cup, and after Cedric's death). He is so much less > significant to the plot than Cedric was. Since JKR > specifically said that this book would have a hard to > write death, I assume that it must be someone more > significant to the plot than Cedric was. I think that the "death that will be hard to write" is going to be Lupin. I say this because JKR has admitted in her interview with scholastic that Lupin is one of her favorite characters. Perhaps Lupin fights Voldemort and loses. Lupin's death would be very hard to write, given that he is such a good guy. He is also very close to Harry, and someone that Harry greatly admires. Think of the plot consequences! I also think that there are more deaths than one. JKR said as much, didn't she? > kewiromeo at a... wrote: > Or better yet, he will end up in the future. Hermione > and Ron with him. I think that Ron is going to have to > find someone else. Hermione should be with Harry, and > if not, Harry and Cho will have something going on and > she will die. > Again, this is just my opinion Although I know that some people have very strong feelings about the SHIP dilemmas and I respect their opinions, I also have some opinions of my own. JKR has set a very strong foundation for a Harry/Ginny relationship and a Ron Hermione relationship. I say this for several reasons. Ginny has a very strong crush on Harry from book one to book four (although it peaked in book two). To her, Harry is a hero the slayer of Lord Voldemort, her savior in the CoS, all-star athlete and all around good guy. Even though her "silly crush" seems to be behind her in GoF, JKR still leaves small clues that she is still day-dreaming about Harry but that she is moving on. After all, Harry sees Ginny as Ron's little sister. But I've read somewhere that JKR has said that Ginny will begin to play more of a part in future stories. Perhaps Ginny will join the Quidditch team. After all, she does have 6 older brothers, most of who all seem to be good Quidditch players. And isn't Cho's ability on the Quidditch team (coupled with her good looks) the root of Harry's attraction to her? It's not like he knows her as a person I think that Harry's crush on Cho is just that?a crush. There is no substance in this relationship and certainly nothing that would lead me to believe that anything will ever come of it. I think he is just showing normal pre-teen/teenage feelings and Cho is a devise used by JKR to show the facets of his character. He may be brave when it comes to Voldemort, but he's still just a boy entering into the unfamiliar territory of girls. Hermione and Harry are not attracted to one another. Teenage romance is characterized by awkwardness and embarrassment. Hermione kisses Harry on the cheek (a very common practice in Europe) without any signs of awkwardness or embarrassment. This leads me to believe that Hermione views Harry as a brother or close friend. With Ron, on the other hand, we see an entirely different dynamic. They have always had a love/hate relationship. There are definite signs of jealousy on the part of both Ron and Hermione in GoF, and they have an awkwardness with each other while still maintaining the sense that they care deeply for each other. I think JKR is setting the stage for a relationship here. Why else would she even bother including these scenes in GoF? Also keep in mind that both Harry and Hermione denied having feelings for each other after being accused of a relationship by Rita Skeeter. Another reason I think that Ginny and Harry will end up together has its roots in history. They are linked though their history with Tom Riddle and the CoS. Harry wants more than anything to be part of a family because he never had much of a family of his own (who counts the Dursleys?). In a sense, Ginny's family is already Harry's family. He is an honorary Weasly already, and linking Harry and Ginny would give Harry a sense of belonging and family that he has always wanted. Would he have that with Hermione? No, not to the same extent or with the same significance that he would have with Ginny. Linking Harry with Ginny and Ron with Hermione would, in a way, make them brothers and all of them family. I just think that from a literary perspective, this makes the best sense. That's just my opinion > Kathryn: >If Harry was such a powerful wizard, why > did it take him so long to learn the patronus charm? > And how come he can't see anything in the crystal > ball? He has shown that he is not AMAZING at his > practical exams, so I don't see evidence that he has > some sort of stronger magical power or ability than > others. > I agree with Tzvi that Harry has shown to be a powerful/great wizard. He can see the future via dreams (not crystal balls) and has a way of using what he knows most effectively in tight situations. He doesn't lose his cool when in peril and knows when to seek help from others (like H/R). Voldemort obviously knows that there is more to Harry than meets the eye. After all, why was he trying to kill him as an infant? In SS/PS when Harry was in the Hospital Wing talking to Dumbledore he asks him a question. "Voldemort said that he only killed my mother because she tried to stop him from killing me. But why would he want to kill me in the first place?" Dumbledore does not answer his question, putting him off by saying, "Alas, the first thing you ask me, I cannot tell you. Not today. Not now . When you are older when you are ready, you will know." IMO I think that Lilly and James were hiding to protect Harry from Voldemort. Perhaps Voldemort found out somehow that Harry would be his downfall (divination???). If Lilly and James knew that Voldemort was after their son, of course they would hide from him. Hopefully this is the "everything" that Dumbledore wants to tell Harry in book 5. Until then, I'm still wondering Why did Voldemort want to kill Harry? Kathy, finished lurking From golden_faile at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 22:16:49 2003 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:16:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron in Cos (was Ron and the Trouble with Veela) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030123221649.85151.qmail@web41106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50419 "pippin_999 " wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, golden faile wrote: > I was wondering, where in COS do we see evidence of Ron having an interest in Hermione? < I think the most telling indicator is in ch. 15, Aragog. Ron has been finding reasons not to follow the spiders into the Forbidden Forest. But in DADA, Harry gets angry at Lockhart for sneering at Hagrid and scribbles Ron a note: Let's do it tonight. ******* Ron read the message, swallowed hard, and looked sideways at the empty seat usually filled by Hermione. The sight seemed to stiffen his resolve, and he nodded. Pippin: It is unambiguously Ron's concern for Hermione, not Hagrid or Harry, that convinces Ron to go through with it. Laila: Awwww!!! Come on Pip(I'm playing the devil's advocate here), you know he would have done the same for Harry . Laila Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From shunique69 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 22:04:03 2003 From: shunique69 at yahoo.com (Shunique ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 22:04:03 -0000 Subject: Short Predictions for Book 5 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50420 My predictions for book 5 goes as followed: 1.Dumbledore may tell Harry that Voldemort never intended on killing him, but needed to leave his mark on Harry like that of the Death Eaters mark. 2.Harry may be told that he has another relative that no one knows about. (Hermione) 3.We may see the Merpeople come into play. 4.We may finally see Neville as a developing character. Shunique From srsiriusblack at aol.com Thu Jan 23 22:35:14 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 17:35:14 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What will come in book 5 Message-ID: <1ef.2aad5.2b61c822@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50421 In a message dated 23/01/2003 17:11:49 Eastern Standard Time, pkdailey at comcast.net writes: > I think that the "death that will be hard to write" is going to be > Lupin. I say this because JKR has admitted in her interview with > scholastic that Lupin is one of her favorite characters. Perhaps > Lupin fights Voldemort and loses. Lupin's death would be very hard > to write, given that he is such a good guy. He is also very close > to Harry, and someone that Harry greatly admires. Think of the plot > consequences! I also think that there are more deaths than one. JKR > said as much, didn't she? Yes, JKR has said that there will be many deaths to come.... But, I do hope that it isn't Lupin. I know I have yeilded nothing but 'I hope it isn't' to most of the Book five death theories, but they all seem to fosuc on my four favourite characters- Black, Lupin, Snape and Hagrid. > kewiromeo at a... wrote: > "As well, I think that Harry's fan will be Mr. > Diggory. " > > Kathryn: As I said in a post, maybe even > yesterday...why would Mr. Diggory's death be hard to > write, we've seen him what? 3 times in the entire > series (The Weasley's fire place, the Quidditch World > Cup, and after Cedric's death). He is so much less > significant to the plot than Cedric was. Since JKR > specifically said that this book would have a hard to > write death, I assume that it must be someone more > significant to the plot than Cedric was. I don't think that the fan will be Mr Diggory as he has not really established himself as a great fan of Harry's and we don't truly know how he feels about the death of his son and the role of Harry in that death. Certainly, he understands the magnatude of what Harry is to the WW, but he also is a father who has lost a son in rather mysterious circumstances. Think if Mr Diggory believed any of Rita Skeeter's article on how unstable Harry is; he could believe that Harry played a part in the death of his son--- of course this all depends on how rational Mr Diggory is....\ -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 22:47:22 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:47:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What will come in book 5ish In-Reply-To: <20030123154304.19934.qmail@web40504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030123224722.97275.qmail@web40508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50422 --- Kathryn Wolber wrote: > And, I must have deleted it but at some point there > was something about Harry being REALLY powerful. I > disagree. If Harry was such a powerful wizard, why > did it take him so long to learn the patronus charm? Because, um, "This charm is ridiculously advanced," because many accomplished wizards have trouble with it. Really, the fact that Harry actually learned how to do it *at all*, and was able to conjure such a powerful one so as to drive away a hundred dementors, shows that Harry is very, very powerful indeed. > And how come he can't see anything in the crystal > ball? He has shown that he is not AMAZING at his > practical exams, so I don't see evidence that he has > some sort of stonger magical power or ability than > others. Eh, but he is, at practical exams. Recall PoA - Harry got full marks at the practical DADA exam. He also did rather well in the Triwizard Tournament, taking into consideration the fact that he was 14 and everyone else was at least 17 years old. Besides, I have a strong hunch that willpower matters *a lot* in the strength of magical talent. Like, "a wizard with strong will" = "powerful wizard," "a wizard with very strong will" = "very powerful wizard." The reason Harry doesn't always get excellent marks is that he is often lazy, as it often is with boys, and not particularly ambitious. Regards, Maria __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From megalynn44 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 23 22:54:48 2003 From: megalynn44 at hotmail.com (Megalynn S.) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 17:54:48 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What will come in book 5 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50423 "Yes, JKR has said that there will be many deaths to come.... But, I do hope that it isn't Lupin. I know I have yeilded nothing but 'I hope it isn't' to most of the Book five death theories, but they all seem to fosuc on my four favourite characters- Black, Lupin, Snape, and Hagrid." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I now what you mean, and I myself have held back on leaping forward into what I call the "everybody dies!" theories. No, no one is literally saying everybody dies, but a lot of peopel seem to have accepted that a lot of our favorites will simply be offed. I just can't get into that. I can however recognize that most everyone is vulnerable. I myself think Lupin will be killed by Wormtail. The fact that he, Wormtail, has been given a silver hand seems to cement that for me. It's just the kind of clue JKR likes to leave. Snape I think could be killed trying to do something to redeem himself, or shortly after redeeming himself with Harry. I don't think it's highly likely, but probable. Hagrid, to me, just seems like the obvious special fan and hard death to write, but I haven't given up hope. The only one out of the four listed I would actually be mad (very mad) is if Sirius were killed. He has suffered sooooooooo much already. I just really want to see him have some happiness. Megalynn _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From selah_1977 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 23:22:06 2003 From: selah_1977 at yahoo.com (Ebony ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:22:06 -0000 Subject: SHIP: R/H question for Ebony (was Ron and Hermione do TOO banter!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50424 Again, panting to catch up after another long weekday AFK... --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David " wrote: > > > ever since reading GoF I've predicted that Ron and > > Hermione will date in future books. If I were a betting woman, my > > money would be on R/H... > > And I thought your essays were such a comprehensive trashing (if I > may use that word) of the R/H position! Trashing? I'm accused of being a textual cannibal (winks at Amy), now David implies that my essay is tantamount to tossing rubbish on the R/H position. Ah, well. You can't win 'em all. I emphatically do expect to see R/H in future books, David. I think that Ron likes her, and I think that Hermione will date him not because she likes him, but for other reasons that I can discuss in detail later. Teenage girls date guys all the time who are more interested than they are, I would assert. However, I think that any logical development of R/H would be quite disastrous indeed for the characters *in this context*. And yes, David, I did write a post-Hogwarts fanfiction about it (in which an R/H marriage unravels a decade after canon), but in truth, I think that even 10 years I gave it in my fic is far too long... or even 2- 3. I suppose it's because I'm a lit scholar-in-training, knee-deep in reading JKR's literary antecedents and theory, and I just got this strange sense of "something is rotten in Denmark" while reading the proto-R/H of Ron--->Hermione in GoF. Have not been able to shake it in the years since. I feel so strongly that R/H makes no sense in terms of the broader narrative that if I see OBHWF development without conflict in the rest of canon, I'd be fascinated and would definitely expend some time and energy critiquing it on a scholarly level. Which is cool... by the time book 7 comes out, I'll have the creds to do it. --Ebony, writing a thesis on two non-HP juvenile texts at the present time From cindysphynx at comcast.net Thu Jan 23 23:32:08 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C. ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:32:08 -0000 Subject: The Gleam? Not Again! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50425 In combing the archives, I came across a very interesting post by Eric Oppen (Message 41980). Eric writes: *********** Could one of the side-effects of "flesh of the servant, willingly(?) given" in the ritual to re-body-ize Voldemort be to give _Wormtail_ some sort of power over Voldemort? Think about it...part of Wormtail is now a big component in Voldemort's new body. We've already seen that the magical "law of similarity" applies in the Wizard World, what with HP's and V's wands being unable to fight each other because they each contain a feather from the tail of the same phoenix. Might this not apply even more strongly between V-mort and W-tail? ********** Gee. After all, Dumbledore knows about Wormtail's life debt to Harry. Could it be that simple? Cindy From Resqgal911 at msn.com Thu Jan 23 23:34:09 2003 From: Resqgal911 at msn.com (Tammy Bianchi) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:34:09 -0500 Subject: Ron and the Trouble with Veela Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50426 > -Tanya said: > Didn't Arthur resist the Veela at the World Cup by covering his ears > during their songs? I vaguely remember him telling Ron and Harry to > cover their ears [sorry, no books here at work, so I can't check]. > If so, that could explain how Arthur (and everybody else in the > stadium) were able to resist the Veela on that night. > -Tanya then Erica Said: I thought that the Veela episode at the World Cup (Harry vs Ron's ability to resist) was a foreshadowing of their respective reactions to the Imperious Curse in Fake!Moody's DADA class. Me: Both of you have brought up excelent points regarding the Veela, but I wish to connect a couple dots. First we have Harry and Ron acting similarly at the QWC when they first see the Veela. Now since we only get Harry's perspective we know that he had at least some sort of little voice telling him that he didn't want the Veela to stop. We don't know if Ron had the same thoughts or if his mind was just blissfully empty. I believe this exactly parallells the Imperious curses affect. I wonder if Harry could have resisted the Veela better if he had already learned to throw off the Imperious curse. Now, after saying that, I find it interesting that Arthur had to cover his ears. If he was a strong enough wizard he might be able to ignore their songs. Does this mean Arthur can't throw off the imperious curse? This, I believe, will foreshadow at least one of the Weasleys being controlled by the imperious curse. Tammy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 23:37:05 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:37:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What will come in book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030123233705.6277.qmail@web40508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50427 --- "Kathy " wrote: > I think that the "death that will be hard to write" > is going to be > Lupin. I say this because JKR has admitted in her > interview with > scholastic that Lupin is one of her favorite > characters. Perhaps > Lupin fights Voldemort and loses. Lupin's death > would be very hard > to write, given that he is such a good guy. He is > also very close > to Harry, and someone that Harry greatly admires. > Think of the plot > consequences! I also think that there are more > deaths than one. JKR > said as much, didn't she? > Noooooo! I don't even want to think about it. It would be so unfair, to him and to us. > Hermione and Harry are not attracted to one another. > Teenage > romance is characterized by awkwardness and > embarrassment. Hermione > kisses Harry on the cheek (a very common practice in > Europe) without > any signs of awkwardness or embarrassment. This > leads me to believe > that Hermione views Harry as a brother or close > friend. While it's arguable that Hermione likes/doesn't like Harry (and I don't even want to be dragged into this ), I think that it's obvious Harry does not like Hermione *that way.* Do I even need to back this up with quotes? He never bats an eyelash when he realizes Ron likes Hermione. > Another reason I think that Ginny and Harry will end > up together has > its roots in history. They are linked though their > history with Tom > Riddle and the CoS. Harry wants more than anything > to be part of a > family because he never had much of a family of his > own (who counts > the Dursleys?). In a sense, Ginny's family is > already Harry's > family. He is an honorary Weasly already, and > linking Harry and > Ginny would give Harry a sense of belonging and > family that he has > always wanted. Would he have that with Hermione? > No, not to the > same extent or with the same significance that he > would have with > Ginny. Linking Harry with Ginny and Ron with > Hermione would, in a > way, make them brothers and all of them family. I > just think that > from a literary perspective, this makes the best > sense. That's just > my opinion? Oh my gosh. I just realized this - Ginny has a life-debt to Harry! I wonder how she's going to pay him back. Maria __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Thu Jan 23 23:38:16 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:38:16 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's mark (was Short Predictions for Book 5) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50428 Shunique wrote: > My predictions for book 5 goes as followed: > 1.Dumbledore may tell Harry that Voldemort never intended on killing > him, but needed to leave his mark on Harry like that of the Death > Eaters mark. Ooh, fascinating! I haven't come across that one before. So, do you mean that it wasn't an Aveda Kedavra, or that Voldemort knew that AK was the only way to leave the mark, but didn't expect the rebound effect, or that Voldemort's plan suceeded and has in fact been on track for the past 15 years? What would have been the point of the mark? David, who thinks it's more plausible that Harry's related (only by marriage) to *Ron*, through the Weasley's Muggle accountant relative, Vernon Dursley, thus ensuring Harry, his future partner (if any) and the Dursleys are *all* part of OBHWF. From skelkins at attbi.com Thu Jan 23 23:42:58 2003 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:42:58 -0000 Subject: Real characters & persuasive argument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50429 Amy: > Let's take a really, really obvious example instead of a > subtle one like whether Ron and Harry are on balance > inconsiderate idiots. Let's say someone is trying to > explain ( not persuade anyone else) that Snape strikes > her as a particularly kind person. Amy, I think that you are still misunderstanding the nuances and subtleties of the conversation that had actually been taking place, before it became diverted into a defensive exchange over whether people's readings are a by-product of the long wait for OoP, whether people were or were not "trashing" characters, and so forth. This really frustrates me, not least of which because I feel that the arguments of the posters were *themselves* rather badly mischaracterized -- dare I even say "flattened?" -- by this digression. As I read it, the exchange between Ebony and Eileen up to the point at which the conversation became diverted by the bone-picking and trashing objections, could have been paraphrased like so: ------------------ Ebony: I don't see how Hermione could ever countenance a romantic relationship with Ron, because he has said such very horrible things to her, things that are just *so* mean and inconsiderate that I believe they must have hurt her feelings terribly. If I were Hermione, the things Ron has said would disqualify him from my consideration, because I would have been so hurt by Ron's statements before the Yule Ball that I would never be able after that to think of him as a romantic partner. That's why I just can't see R/H. Eileen: Yeah, I agree with you that the things Ron said there were horrible, and they would have upset me a great deal too, if I had been Hermione. But you know, Harry *also* strikes me as a really mean and inconsiderate person? Just look at how he treats Neville, to take only one example. Really, when I read the books, I am always struck by how unkind *both* of these boys are. If I knew Ron and Harry in real life, I would consider *both* of them to be such mean and inconsiderate people that I wouldn't even want to be friends with them, far less to date them. I'd be more interested in Neville. Yet Hermione herself obviously doesn't feel the same way. She *is* friends with them. She really *does* like their company, in spite of the fact that they act like such jerks. This leads me to the conclusion that Hermione isn't bothered by the same sort of behavior that would bother me. It also leads me to believe that Ron's comments probably don't upset her all that much. You see, just as I know that other readers' emotional reactions to these characters are not the same as mine -- most readers do *not* consider Ron and Harry to be inconsiderate jerks, nor would I wish to try to convince them to share my reading -- so I can realize that *Hermione's* emotional reactions to Ron and Harry are likely not the same as mine. I therefore don't find it at all difficult to believe that Hermione could consider Ron a potential romantic partner in spite of all of those inconsiderate statements. I would feel differently, sure. But then, by the same token, I wouldn't want to date Harry either. And besides, I am not Hermione. Amy: I think that the fact that we've been waiting so long for OoP has had an unfortunate effect on the nature of our discourse. It makes me sad when people trash the characters. When you cite Ron and Harry's inconsiderate behavior without offering up examples of their kind and generous actions, you flatten out the characters. Furthermore, it is not a persuasive argument. If you want to convince me that Ron and Harry are inconsiderate, then you need to do better than that. It makes me sad when people treat fully realized and three dimensional characters as shallow renditions of good or evil. ----------------------- Do you see the problem here? For one thing, I don't think that the argument you were addressing was the argument that either poster was trying to make. In fact, one of the posters in the original exchange went out of her way to *specify* that her intent was *not* to persuade others to share her emotional response to Ron and Harry. Indeed, the fact that different individuals differ in their emotional responses was part and parcel of her argument: "The things that bother me about Ron and Harry's behavior don't even bother other *readers,* so why on earth should I assume that they bother Hermione?" Now, admittedly, Eileen's rhetorical methods are sometimes a little bit sly, so perhaps people simply didn't take her meaning. Ebony's post, on the other hand, I thought was very straightforward. Yet I felt that people's responses flattened out both of their arguments by responding to them as if they were just "Ron Is Ever So Evil" posts, or somesuch. It is frustrating to me. There were nuances and subtleties to that exchange that went well beyond the question of whether or not Ron (or Harry) are inconsiderate twerps. To address these posts as if they were simple hortatory pieces on the nature of Ron and Harry's character therefore struck me as not only somewhat disingenuous, but also as a rather serious mischaracterization. An over-simplification. A "flattening," if you will. About Ebony's original argument: > I don't think it's a sneaky rhetorical ploy; I think it's > unconvincing. As I read arguments about why Ron and Hermione > wouldn't be a good couple, I'm thinking about each of their good > qualities and the interactions between them that suggest possible > good couplehood. Well, in that case, then surely the reason you find Ebony's argument unconvincing has nothing to do with "trashing" characters, does it? What you're saying, if I've got you right here, is that you aren't the sort of person in whose mind being hurt by someone's statements might automatically disqualify that person for consideration as a romantic partner. You would be willing to overlook having been hurt, if there were many positive experiences outweighing those incidents in which you'd been hurt. And you believe that Hermione is far more like you than she is like Ebony. Or is it perhaps that you just don't accept the premise that Hermione was really all that badly hurt by Ron's statements to begin with? You see, I'm not even *sure* what your actual objection to Ebony's argument is. But whichever of the possibilities it is, why not say *that,* rather than complaining about the fact that Ebony had such a strong negative reader response to Ron's pre-Yule Ball comments? Since we all seem to agree that ones emotional responses to the text and its characters are highly subjective and ultimately personal, then why not address the canon argument that derives *from* that reader response, rather than taking issue with the reader response itself? > No one is going to convince me that Snape is kind without dealing > with the evidence to the contrary; no one is going to convince me > that Harry is on balance inconsiderate without doing the same. That's perfectly reasonable. However, there are plenty of things people sometimes want to discuss *other* than the rather basic questions of "Is Character X brave/unkind/inconsiderate/etc." Not every discussion of these books comes down to an argument over character. I think that it really cripples our ability to discuss the canon when someone's negative reader response to a character can not even be cited on route to making a wider point without the conversation immediately becoming diverted. It's frustrating, that, because it reduces every single conversation into "How DARE you say such a thing about Character X?" We see this all the time on the list, IMO. Someone suggests that Lupin exhibits classic non-compliance behavior in regard to his Wolfsbane Potion, and the response is "How DARE you say that Lupin is bad?" Someone suggests that if Moody is the 'Good Auror,' then just imagine what those Bad Aurors must have been like, and the response is "How DARE you insult Moody?" Someone says that she doesn't care for the Twins because they behave like bullies, and it's "How DARE you say that the Twins are pure unadulterated evil?" Someone makes a rather sophisticated argument about the dangers of the affective fallacy in shipping arguments, and the response is: "Why must everyone always be trashing the characters?" I just find this so disheartening. It constrains the debate. It makes it virtually impossible to make any argument that involves an even *tangential* reference to a popular character's bad qualities. It enforces a (to my mind very strange) expectation that fictional characters themselves are entitled to some sort of *due process,* as if literary discussion itself were a court of law in which the characters are standing trial for their crimes. I wrote: > What I guess I'm finding upsetting here is the vague feeling > that I get from this thread...that so long as a reader's response > is sufficiently idiosyncratic. . . . it is therefore held to > be in some way invalid, or even *unfair* Amy asked: > What did I write that makes you think I was saying so? I was perhaps unfairly conflating your comments with Petra's comments about rhetorical ploys. If you did not mean to make that argument, then I apologize. I believe that where I saw it in your post was as the subtext to the claim that certain types of discussions or arguments are in some way a by-product of a lack of new canon: > We're like the Donner Party at this point. After two and a half > years without fresh meat, we're reduced to cannibalism--not eating > each other but munching on the characters we've got stashed in the > hold. There really is a very insulting implication lurking around the edges, IMO: namely, that you believe that others' arguments are based in an artificial, unnatural, or in some other way over- ratiocinated reading of the text. The subtext that I always read into statements of this sort (which I do realize may not have been your intent) is: "The reading you are proposing is not instinctive or natural. It only came about due to the long wait between volumes, rather than deriving naturally from your engagement with the text. It is therefore in some sense dishonest." It did not surprise me that both Ebony and Eileen responded rather defensively to that statement. I would have done so as well. In fact, I *did* responded defensively to it, even though it was not even one of my own arguments being so attacked. Well. Not *this* time, at any rate. -- Elkins From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 23:44:11 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:44:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What will come in book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030123234411.96388.qmail@web40503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50430 --- "Megalynn S." wrote> > I myself think Lupin will be killed by Wormtail. The > fact that he, Wormtail, > has been given a silver hand seems to cement that > for me. It's just the kind > of clue JKR likes to leave. Well, I can only say "Heaven forbid," but I'd like to question this assumption that "real," i.e. Potterverse werewolfs can be killed by silver. This wasn't anywhere in the books, although when in PS and PoA it was talked on several occasions about vampires, who have no relation to the books at all so far, garlic was mentioned as part of the defense against them. > > Snape I think could be killed trying to do something > to redeem himself, or > shortly after redeeming himself with Harry. I don't > think it's highly > likely, but probable. Very probable, although I don't think WW can really spare him yet. > > Hagrid, to me, just seems like the obvious special > fan and hard death to > write, but I haven't given up hope. I'd bet my money on Hagrid. He's always been the scapegoat of the WW. > The only one out of the four listed I would actually > be mad (very mad) is if > Sirius were killed. He has suffered sooooooooo much > already. I just really > want to see him have some happiness. Ditto, although Lupin has also suffered *a lot.* Maria, going off to pick up her sister from dance class. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From selah_1977 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 00:06:00 2003 From: selah_1977 at yahoo.com (Ebony ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 00:06:00 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Another R/H question for Ebony (was Ron and Hermione do TOO banter!) In-Reply-To: <22260197801.20030123090956@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50431 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > If you are convinced that JKR is writing foreshadowing for > H/H, and that, while Ron likes Hermione, she doesn't like > him, I don't understand why you think Hermione would date > Ron, then. > > Even if you believe they are going to break up quickly. Easily. :-D I don't think there is any actual H/H in the books from PS/SS to GoF. I don't think there's any R/H, either. Hermione would date Ron for a number of reasons, none of which necessarily have to be "Hermione likes Ron and only Ron". One reason among many: her friendship with Ron is changing, and she isn't sure how to deal with the change without losing Ron in the process. So she dates him. > It just doesn't make any sense, unless you think Hermione > would feel pressured into dating Ron, which I don't see at > all. > > Hermione has a backbone and no trouble telling Ron what she > thinks of his behavior, when need be, so I honestly can't > see her date someone she doesn't want to. Not necessarily external pressure, no. Hermione is the author of half of her own stress (observe what happened PoA). She'd do a very good job of pressuring herself. In fact, we see her explaining Ron to Harry mid-GoF when the two boys are at odds. And telling Ron that his behavior is daft and potentially crushing Ron are two very different things. > Do you think Hermione is going to be so angry/distraught > over Harry not liking her back, that she will turn to Ron? More than that. If Hermione likes Harry at this point (and I don't think that can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt), I would imagine that she knows that he does not see her that way, likes Cho, and will likely never see her that way. I don't seeing dating Ron as the result of anger; I see it as possibly being one of resignation. > I really don't see Romance taking such a front spot in HP, > and I truly hope JKR will not change to romance as the main > plot advancement. Oh, but any good subplot is nicely tangled in the main threads of the narrative IMO. Romance included. I don't think much of the devaluation of romance and sentimentality in our postmodern society anyway... but then again, my specialty is 19th century lit, so I might just be mucking about in antiquated ways of thinking. There are so many non-cliched and non-soap operatic ways to tie in romance to the main plot. Of the OBHWF ships, I actually like H/G more because I speculate that it would be more interesting... I love Ginny as a character and believe that JKR could convince me of Harry/Ginny by Book 7. OTOH, I doubt if anyone, even JKR, could convince me of the plausibility of R/H. There are authors whose work I love, but whose romantic subplots I loathe. There are authors who can write great romantic scenes, but truthfully stink. I cheerfully make this distinction all the time in my reading. I like H/H in fanon, but I would be a bit disappointed if I saw great lashings of it in OotP. This is because I am not as much H/H as I am totally against R/H. And unfortunately, too often in this fandom being anti-R/H means being labeled as anti-Ron. > And if things get this tangled, JKR would have to spend > quite a bit of time sorting out the love life of her > characters. Not if those love lives had direct implications for the plot. I can tell you canon-plausible scenarios for Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione. The former would be fairly interesting. The latter? You won't like what I'd have too say. At this point, usually the opposing side will quote JKR's words about her upcoming intended romances at me--she did say that the romances would be "nothing too gritty". I don't think she meant that we would see happy romances without trouble. I think she meant we wouldn't see anything romantic that was above a PG rating in future books... and thank goodness. Fanon's gotten extreme enough. So yes, I expect for the romances to have angst. > Another thing I really don't want to see is Hermione turning > into the female character every male close to her wants. > Victor, Neville, Ron, Harry, Draco... Oh, but I can't give you a full "amen" there. Sorry. The latter two boys don't like Hermione at all as of GoF, unless you deem Harry's lack of interest or Draco's vicious taunts as "like". Yet I can make the case that the former three do like her in some degree as of GoF. The case is strongest for Viktor, very convincing for Ron, and somewhat convincing for Neville. That's already three boys. And she made all of those heads turn and those jaws drop at the Yule Ball. Now, I tend to agree with Susanne's last statement... but I also think that there's a sort of shallow satisfaction in going from being the girl whom no one wants to the girl who catches the eye of a highly desirable (in the eyes of others) guy. > I have the feeling we'll see just a few more hints in the > next book, with a few humorous misunderstandings (at least > some people will see them as funny) and probably more boy > cluelessness. Maybe... but they are 15. I suppose I'd have to visit the UK to see what's normal for that age bracket there. However, with the tone of the next book, and all the 1000 non- shipping things that I cared about and discussed to death a year and a half ago, I think the kids will have to grow up fast. I don't think you'll see quite the same lighthearted tone of mid-GoF ever again in this series. > Once Ron sorts out his feelings, he may even back off > because of his insecurities, wanting Hermione to find > someone who can "offer her more". > He may think he's not "good enough" for her. > > Maybe he'll think Harry would be the right candidate, while > Hermione wants Ron to get over himself and ask her out ;) This is certainly a possibility. However, it would necessitate for some character development on Ron's part. I don't see any canon evidence that he is capable of such magnamity. And as for your last statement, I really don't read either Ron or Hermione's characterization that way. If I did, I'd be a happy R/H shipper. --Ebony From srsiriusblack at aol.com Fri Jan 24 00:16:01 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:16:01 EST Subject: Dumbledore Message-ID: <10e.1d89e882.2b61dfc1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50432 I just picked up PS to read again- yes, I know I wonder if I will ever read anything but HP again- and on pg. 12 UK in the description of Albus Dumbledore ' His blue eyes were light, bright and sparkling behind half moon spectacles, and his nose was very long and crooked, as though it had been broken at least twice.' PS is my least favourite of the books, and thus I don't read it as much as the others, but something occurred to me when I read this line. In GoF, JKR talks about Bagman's nose and how it looked as if it had been broken by a stray bludger- paraphrased here... So, I guess what struck me is that perhaps this description of Dumbledore alludes to the fact that Albus played Quidditch as well. Just a thought, Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Fri Jan 24 00:19:47 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:19:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: The Return of Inconsiderate Idiots!Ron and Harry Message-ID: <20030124001947.37475.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50433 There is much to attend to here. Too much, but I'll give it a go. :-) Starting with Petra, (who must wonder why I never responded to her interesting email about Crouch, the answer being that I was ill at the time, and still mean to get back to her on that) >I expressed no assumption about your motives or >your ship when I wrote the above as a part of my >reply. It's just that what you said about >not considering it a bad thing to trash characters >led me to think...and too much time on my hand + >thinking = posting. I'm afraid we all suffer from that equation. :-) But, you must understand, that it is very uncomfortable when Ebony and I were the only people on the list (at that point) who had recently written anything that pertained to this discussion of trashing characters for rhetorical points. So... Pax! Petra ever-so-evilly then asked: >So, what ship is Crouch Sr. an anchor of anyway? >Which ship would benefit from the demonization >of Crouch Sr.? But that's Part Nine! I can't get involved in that now! Look, I have a lot to say about Crouch shipping eventually. Just wait. (And I'll be sure to address your theory.) >Not at all. But not seeing them as complex >characters is problematic. Not actually your >problem, per se. But in your seafaring voyages >surely you have met those who do insist on >reducing canon to simplistic terms. You mean, my brothers? Of course, the answer is yes. Who hasn't? But you know, I usually don't bother to complain about them. They're just a hazard of seafaring, I guess. Like fog. Or heavy winds. I spent my Grade 11 English class in the company of people who just didn't get it. It does wonders for your sense of fatalistic acceptance. >It also says a lot about the complexity of her >characters. Well, that's what I thought. I'm not that keen on Fred and George, but I think they are *very* well-drawn characters. Uncomfortably well-drawn characters for me. Which brings us back to Ron and Harry. Amy Z wrote: >I do think Eileen was trashing--sorry, Eileen. But I'm the person who said that I thought trashing characters was a fine thing. :-) But, as you said earlier, perhaps we define trashing differently. Amy to Ebony: >-I was just following a train of thought from your >post to Eileen's to a general trend that you may >have been fortunate enough to miss, where people do >reduce complex characters to flat characteristics >such as I described. I wasn't intending to say that >you were trashing. So, trashing is "reducing complex characters to flat characteristics?" Well, then, I plead vigorously not guilty! How does my intrepretation of Ron and Harry as inconsiderate reduce their complexity to flat characteristics? >It's not a matter of affection for the characters >(there's no arguing that point, as affection for >characters is as irrational and indefensible as >affection for real-life people), but of supporting >your argument with the full range of evidence. >Ron and Harry are both, at times, inconsiderate. >Evidence abounds. But to say that on balance they >are inconsiderate, to my mind, flattens out characters >who have both amply demonstrated concern for others' >feelings. To your mind, it does. But not to mine. The fact that I have not made the whole case for my opinion does not mean that there isn't a case to be made. It does not mean that I am, under your definition of reducing character complexity to flatness, trashing the characters. It simply means that I haven't proven the point. But then, I never tried to prove my point. In fact, I seem to remember saying that I didn't feel at all like making the whole case at this point of time. I have such an idiosyncratic reading of Ron and Harry's characters, especially Harry's, that it'd take a *long* time to even start explaining it. You see, I really don't think that either of them *has* "amply demonstrated concern for others' feelings." Not *amply* anyhow. That isn't at all obvious to me. Some of the instances in the text that are cited as Harry showing concern, for example, strike me as Harry being woefully inconsiderate. The response to Neville in PS/SS over the leg-locker curse is one istance where my intrepretation of the text is decidedly different from the standard one. And we all know how popular it's been on the list in the past to voice that opinion. Bent it may be, but is that a flattening of Harry's character? To my mind, it's rather *complex*. >On rapid reflection I would say Harry is definitely >more considerate than otherwise; Ron's a tougher case; Well... actually... I hesitate to say this, but I suppose I'm going to say it anyway. I read Harry as much more inconsiderate than Ron. There. I await a painful and slow death. >in either case it takes more than a citation of >their inconsiderate moments to make the argument. >At least, that's what it takes if you want to >convince *me.* Well, yes, I'd agree. Only the fact that I haven't made the argument doesn't mean that I am, under your definition of the word, "trashing" the characters. It means simply that I haven't made the argument. Making the argument seems like way too much work, which I wouldn't enjoy, since I'd want to be writing about Crouch, or Avery, or Neville, or Snape. Then, I'd have to deal with the firestorm that would follow, which wouldn't be that fun either. And it would enlighten no-one, since I know no-one is likely to get on board with my reading of the text. So why mention it in the first place? Here, Elkins comes to my rescue: >What she was trying to do was to *explain* her >reader response.(She was also trying to make a >point about the Affective Fallacy in the process: >namely, that the reader's own personal gut >emotional reaction to certain characters in the story >should not *necessarily* be assumed to be shared by >the other characters in the story.) Why yes! Of course, that was the point. That Hermione doesn't seem to share my negative reaction to either Harry or Ron. That just as Ebony could feel uneasy about Ron, I could feel uneasy about Ron *and* Harry. To illustrate this, I pointed to one issue on which Ebony reads Ron as inconsiderate, and added my reading of Harry as inconsiderate on that same issue: their relationship with Neville. But Hermione doesn't necessarily agree with either of us. So, then, Amy said: >Fair enough. She doesn't want to convince me, and >I'm unconvinced, so we're all in agreement. Yes, I think that's the measure of it. :) But I do have some things to say about Ron and Harry now that everything's got stirred up. Amy wrote: >I suppose the disagreement between us may come down >to the fact that we may speak differently about >real-life people. If a friend of mine whom on >balance I liked occasionally did something >inconsiderate, I wouldn't say "Lois is inconsiderate." >I'd say "Lois did something really inconsiderate." >I'd save "Lois is inconsiderate" for people >who frequently, or better yet dominantly, express >that trait. Such as children? Affective Fallacy time. Yeah, I think children are, by definition, inconsiderate. (And idiots, much of the time, though honestly, I used the term "idiot" much more affectionately. That's what makes them less culpable for their behaviour.) Hearing the praises of childhood sends me up a wall. I want to tear my hair out when I hear people talking about how reading Harry Potter they regained the lost innocence of their childhood. What innocence? Children are twisted and sick. We educate them not to be. Of course, this may be influenced heavily by my own childhood experience. Including the fact that I... errr... tortured my dolls while identifying with them. And yes, I was an inconsiderate idiot. I grew out of it (at least *I* think so!), as nice kids, and even the not-so-nice kids, often do. I don't deny that Harry and Ron are nice kids. But nice kids are some of the most inconsiderate people in the world. My brothers are nice kids... Has anyone ever wondered why I now identify so strongly with Percy? I think that's as far as I want to pursue that Affective Fallacy. Before I'm pegged by the entire list as the ogre who hates children, let me protest that, as oldest of eight children, I *adore* children and, they usually *adore* me. I know how to look after them. I can understand them. I want a few of my own, should I ever marry. I want to be a teacher. I drool over strangers' babies in public places. I jump at any opportunity to babysit. I devote time to thinking up amusements for children. My life is incredibly kid-focused, to the point where I am cuddling a two-year old while writing this post. But I don't have a high opinion of kids' characters. The exciting thing is seeing them grow up, not staying forever the inconsiderate idiots they are. Which is why when Lupin "went for the jugular" in PoA, and Harry matured as a result, I was cheering. One of my favourite moments in the books. I really sincerely believe that Ron and Harry are inconsiderate. And I also believe that they'll develop before our eyes into wonderful young men. Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From megalynn44 at hotmail.com Fri Jan 24 00:20:26 2003 From: megalynn44 at hotmail.com (Megalynn S.) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:20:26 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Another R/H question for Ebony (was Ron and Hermione do TOO banter!) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50434 Wow, I never realized howdifferent people could see the trios situation. To be honest I think the subject might be overanalyzed out of lack of new cannon. To me the situation is simple. Some people click, some don't. I have never bought that you controll or choose who you fall in love with. All the mentions of romance in the book go to R/H and Harry openly accepts it. R/H relationship to me seems exactly like Molly and Arthur's. They simply have the spark and the fact that they are young is why there is so much passion. To me it just seems a lot simpler than it has been made out to be. If the last page of the Yule Ball chapter doesn't epitamize (sp?) the trios feelings for one another, I don't know what does. Megalynn _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From selah_1977 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 00:26:22 2003 From: selah_1977 at yahoo.com (Ebony ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 00:26:22 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Addendum to last post--Why no H/H in OotP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50435 I said: "I like H/H in fanon, but I would be a bit disappointed if I saw great lashings of it in OotP. This is because I am not as much H/H as I am totally against R/H. And unfortunately, too often in this fandom being anti-R/H means being labeled as anti-Ron." Let me qualify this, especially the first sentence of it, as I realize after posting and re-reading that I left myself wide open here. H/H in OotP would have the same problem as R/H in OotP--just as I don't think canon up to this point shows that Hermione likes Ron, I don't think it shows that Harry likes Hermione. As of the end of GoF IMHO, there is no indisputable reciprocation in either R/H or H/H. So what I most want to see in OotP as far as shipping is concerned: 1) More about Ron. Ron, Ron, Ron. I want a subplot that is tied into the main that is All About Ron, his abilities, and what his place in the narrative is. I'm not satisfied with the usual answers. I want more about Ron, independent of Hermione (who's gotten far more narrative space in the last two books than I would have thought given supposed future R/H)... and as something other than his associations with people (Weasley son; Harry's best friend). Like it or not, Jim is right. Ron is falling behind, and I'd love to see that change. Without, of course, making him Hero #2, as this story really is Harry's. 2) Clarification about what's going on in Hermione's head. It'd be nice for all the ambiguity to get cleared up by the end of OotP. But knowing JKR, either Hermione will disappear in the middle of the book, or the hints will continue to be ambiguous. And there'll be years more of shipping debates like these. And Angua likened the shipping debate here to a hydra. I quite agree. I think I'll post about something else now... --Ebony From selah_1977 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 00:35:56 2003 From: selah_1977 at yahoo.com (Ebony ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 00:35:56 -0000 Subject: Gut Feelings vs. Textual Evidence (was Re: SHIP: Another R/H question for Ebony In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50436 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Megalynn S." wrote: To me the situation is simple. Some people click, some don't. I have > never bought that you controll or choose who you fall in love with. All the > mentions of romance in the book go to> R/H and Harry openly accepts it. R/H relationship to me seems exactly like > Molly and Arthur's. They simply have the spark and the fact that they are > young is why there is so much passion. To me it just seems a lot simpler > than it has been made out to be. If the last page of the Yule Ball chapter > doesn't epitamize (sp?) the trios feelings for one another, I don't know > what does. > That's just the thing, Megalynn. We've all got our gut feelings. However, one can't debate over a gut feeling. That is like having a debate over whether or not God exists without empirical evidence... it's not a debate at all. Those of us who like to engage in ship debates feel that the text does indeed back up our "gut feelings". That is what we discuss, quibble over, and analyze. There are R/H and H/H shippers who hate ship debates because after all, their gut is their gut, and no one can tell them how to feel. The R/H and H/H shippers who debate ship differ... we want to show what specific places in the text lend credence to our "theory of shipping". I emphatically do not believe that there is a such thing as overanalysis. If anything, the tragedy of the postmodern West is that we rarely, if ever, analyze anything very much... especially the great masses of the Anglophone world. However, this brings me to a question I have. The reason why ship debates in the past have been so constantly maligned on this list is because they tend to be emotional. Is it possible to have a Harry Potter ship debate based on logic and cold hard facts? Or are ship debates, because of the very nature of *what* the debate is about, fraught with this irreconcilable tension between the head and the heart? --Ebony From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jan 24 00:41:42 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 00:41:42 -0000 Subject: Real characters & persuasive argument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50437 > Amy: > > > Let's take a really, really obvious example instead of a > > subtle one like whether Ron and Harry are on balance > > inconsiderate idiots. Let's say someone is trying to > > explain ( not persuade anyone else) that Snape strikes > > her as a particularly kind person. Elkins: > Amy, I think that you are still misunderstanding the > nuances and subtleties of the conversation that had > actually been taking place, before it became diverted > into a defensive exchange over whether people's readings > are a by-product of the long wait for OoP, whether > people were or were not "trashing" characters, and so > forth. > > This really frustrates me, not least of which because I > feel that the arguments of the posters were *themselves* > rather badly mischaracterized -- dare I even say > "flattened?" -- by this digression. I think there are two different styles being used on the list, which results in confusion or unfulfilled expectations. One is a sort of essay question response, as in "Lupin is Evil. Discuss" in which the poster would marshall both pros and cons before drawing a conclusion. The other one is like a position paper for a debate: "Resolved: Lupin is Evil --The argument against," which would present only one side. The poster's expectation would be that listees who disagree would respond with their own position, and the original poster could then offer a rebuttal. I don't think the choice of discussion style has anything to do with the wait for OoP, or the desire to "flatten" the characters. For my part, ESE Lupin is not an attempt to flatten him...rather the reverse. I was unsatisfied with the characterization and development of Lupin in several respects. Why was the reason he didn't take his potion and conveniently left the activated map in his office not addressed in the text? When Trelawney's voice goes from misty to crisp, we understand that the mistiness is an act. What are we to make of it that Lupin's voice alters suddenly from calm to steely, a steely voice that Harry has never heard from him before? Why does Rowling make Lupin and Sirius so similar? Those were all things that bothered me before I came up with the ESE theory. I admit I presented it rather gleefully, and in a one sided way, but the glee came from solving one of Rowling's mysteries in advance (I think!), not "trashing" the character. As for the one-sidedness, there are plenty of posts in which one can read what a good person Lupin is, and I did invite other people to present the opposing views. I think they can do a much better job than me , since I have become so convinced that I doubt I could present the other side fairly. For example, I had to edit the line above, because I put "paragon of virtue" instead of "good person" Pippin From shunique69 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 22:05:57 2003 From: shunique69 at yahoo.com (Shunique ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 22:05:57 -0000 Subject: Uncle Vernon a Wizard? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50438 Dumbledore may tell Harry that Uncle Vernon is a wizard who decided to live as a Muggle. " My" Smelting stick theory says that uncle Vernon carried that stick around as a wand. I would also say that you could look at Hagrids entrance in PS and say that a wand could be placed just about everywhere and anywhere. For example, one could hide a wand in an umbrella. That can be found in PS U.S. version pg 83. (Hagrid talking to Mr. Ollivander). Also in PS pg 32 U.S. it says: "As he looked at Dudley in his new knickerbockers, Uncle Vernon said gruffly that it was the proudest moment in his life." This is exactly how Petunia describes her parents' enthusiasm as Lily received her letter from Hogwarts. If Dudley turns out to be a wizard I bet he will either be the saving or the downfall of Harry in the end of the Series. From pkdailey at comcast.net Thu Jan 23 22:33:12 2003 From: pkdailey at comcast.net (Kathy ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 22:33:12 -0000 Subject: Neville in Herbology (was sig. of Neville) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030123143141.071ca090@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50439 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James P. Robinson III" wrote: > As the clock struck 08:13 PM 1/23/2003 +0000, Kathy > took pen in hand and wrote: > >JRK revealed in GoF that his parents were both great aurors and that > >they had both been tortured by Death Eaters. > > Only Neville's father is stated to have been an auror, not both his parents. > > Jim > > P.S.--I am not sure Neville's mother is even named, except as Mrs. > Longbottom or Frank's wife or some similar formula. You're right. I just checked and Neville's father was an Auror but it does not say that his mother was one too. It does say in chapter 30 of GoF that both Neville's parents were tortured for information about Voldemort's whereabouts and that they are both insane , in St. Mungo's Hospitol for Magical Maladies and Injuries. From flamingstarchows at att.net Thu Jan 23 23:35:15 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 17:35:15 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What will come in book 5ish References: Message-ID: <00ea01c2c338$15ee0320$2d15570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 50440 ----- Original Message ----- From: probonoprobono -Tanya: (Your mom reminds me of Mrs. Weasley! {grin}) Anyhoo, your thoughts just got me thinking...how talented is Draco? I wish I had the books for the exact quotes (I believe they appear in the beginning of CoS, when Lucius and Draco are in Borgin & Burkes). They spend an awful lot of time talking about grades and I got the impression that the only person who's grades topped Draco's was Hermione? Lucius seemed miffed not only that Draco was not head of the class, but possibly more so because Draco was bettered by a Muggle, of all people. And this seems to be a good part of Draco's bitterness towards Hermione too. Just a thought. Wondering what you all think. *** I don't think Draco is any genius in his classes. from CoS: "Ah, the Hand of Glory!" said Mr. Borgin, abandoning Mr. Malfoy's list and scurrying over to Draco. "Insert a candle and it gives light only ot the holder! Best friend of thieves and plunderers! Your son has fine taste, sir." "I hope my son will amount to more than a thief or a plunderer, Borgin," said Mr. Malfoy coldly, and Mr. Borgin said quickly, "no offense, sir, no offense meant -" "Though if his grades don't pick up," said Mr. Malfoy, more coldly still, "that may indeed be all he is fit for - " This gives me the impression of someone who is not anywhere near the top of his class. Draco goes on to blame the teachers for having favorites like Hermione. I think that when Mr. Malfoy went on to comment "I would have thought you'd be ashamed that a girl of no wizard family beat you in every exam" it was just to embarass and shame Draco further. ~Cathy~ From byoon at ucsd.edu Thu Jan 23 23:53:21 2003 From: byoon at ucsd.edu (Brian Yoon) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:53:21 -0800 Subject: SHIP: What will come in book 5 References: <20030123233705.6277.qmail@web40508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004501c2c33a$9cf4bec0$10ce3680@ucsd.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 50441 > > Kathy wrote: > > the Dursleys?). In a sense, Ginny's family is > > already Harry's > > family. He is an honorary Weasly already, and > > linking Harry and > > Ginny would give Harry a sense of belonging and > > family that he has > > always wanted. Would he have that with Hermione? > > No, not to the > > same extent or with the same significance that he > > would have with > > Ginny. Linking Harry with Ginny and Ron with > > Hermione would, in a > > way, make them brothers and all of them family. I > > just think that > > from a literary perspective, this makes the best > > sense. That's just > > my opinion? In your explanation of this theory, you also happen to point out my biggest complaint about it: > > the Dursleys?). In a sense, Ginny's family is > > already Harry's > > family. Harry is *already* a part of Ginny's family. He doesn't need to marry into the Weasley clan to make then accept him and care for him: they already do. Are you implying that if Harry marries any other girl than Ginny, the Weasleys won't accept him as part of their family? > Oh my gosh. I just realized this - Ginny has a > life-debt to Harry! I wonder how she's going to pay > him back. > > Maria I thought this was obvious: Ginny's going to follow Harry around everywhere from now on (even when he doesn't want her to!), and be copilot to any freighter/star cruiser/highly modified smuggling Corellian YT1300. Brian .. who wouldn't mind seeing Ginny in Chewie's costume *veg* From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jan 23 23:56:27 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstin Innes ) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:56:27 -0000 Subject: What will come in book 5/ What colour do you think house-elf blood is? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50442 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Megalynn S." wrote: > I myself think Lupin will be killed by Wormtail. The fact that he, Wormtail, > has been given a silver hand seems to cement that for me. It's just the kind > of clue JKR likes to leave. Hello. I'm something of a Lupin fan myself (liking this LIDS business. Are there badges?), but I do agree that he has sacrificial potential. Rereading PoA, I rather felt that Lupin's character - good natured, repeatedly "pleasant", taking fatherly interest in Harry - functions almost in loco parentis to pave the way for kindly godfather Sirius in GoF. Within the Marauding foursome, Lupin is the only one without any *special* connection to Harry, yet a big enough character to cause a splash. > Hagrid, to me, just seems like the obvious special fan and hard death to > write, but I haven't given up hope. Fret not! I don't think that Hagrid really fits this description. He's above and beyond that. "Fan" to me suggests someone who Harry would consider something of an irritant, rather than look up to/out for. Hagrid is a friend of Harry's. "Fan" suggests a less complex relationship; perhaps one where the fan in question owes Harry something? Freedom from a lifetime of slavery to an odious pure- blood white-blond wizarding family with a propensity for munching mortality, perhaps? ;> Just a thought. A happy one, but still just a thought. I can easily contradict myself of course. The only way in which Dobby The Former House Elf's death could be hard to write would surely be stopping oneself from exaggerating the torture to X-rated levels. JKR is an intelligent woman, and I'm sure she can resist the urge to splash Hollywoody pathos all over the place (just imagine it though. The final flap of a tiny, care-worn hand, a little voice croaking "Harry Potter was always good to Dobby, sir". Harry turns his eyes away to hide his tears, and fixes his gaze on a single, mustard-coloured, blood-begrimed sock...). Mind you, she did write the wee twannock in the first place. Anyway, he seems like an obvious candidate to me, but the fact that nobody else has suggested him rather made me wonder if I was missing something. Or perhaps everyone else, traumatised, has resorted to memory charms? Sensible folk. Kirstin, who is new around these here parts, and likes this site an awful lot. From shunique69 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 00:29:36 2003 From: shunique69 at yahoo.com (Rona Patterson) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:29:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's mark (was Short Predictions for Book 5) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030124002936.56778.qmail@web11703.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50443 --- "David " wrote: > Shunique wrote: > > My predictions for book 5 goes as followed: > > 1.Dumbledore may tell Harry that Voldemort never > intended on > killing > > him, but needed to leave his mark on Harry like > that of the Death > > Eaters mark. > > Ooh, fascinating! I haven't come across that one > before. > > So, do you mean that it wasn't an Aveda Kedavra, or > that Voldemort > knew that AK was the only way to leave the mark, but > didn't expect > the rebound effect, or that Voldemort's plan > suceeded and has in > fact been on track for the past 15 years? > > What would have been the point of the mark? > Shunique : I think that the curse was planned from the beginning and that Voldemort knew what he was doing. Lets just speculate that when Voldemort was in Divination class that he was told he was going to fall by a great wizard. Its a start to a half theory. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From siskiou at earthlink.net Fri Jan 24 01:05:53 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 17:05:53 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: R/H question for Ebony (was Ron and Hermione do TOO banter!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <13317176671.20030123170553@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 50444 Hi, Thursday, January 23, 2003, 3:22:06 PM, Ebony wrote: > I feel so strongly that R/H makes no sense in terms of the broader > narrative that if I see OBHWF development without conflict in the > rest of canon, I'd be fascinated and would definitely expend some > time and energy critiquing it on a scholarly level. Which is cool... > by the time book 7 comes out, I'll have the creds to do it. That's why I never trust a critic's opinion ;) I've seen plenty (movie and book) and quite often I don't agree with them at all. It seems, personal opinion, preferences and life experiences enter the equation, no matter what. But I'd still like to hear why you think R/H makes no sense :) -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From skelkins at attbi.com Fri Jan 24 01:30:09 2003 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 01:30:09 -0000 Subject: Polemic, real characters, and real *people* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50445 Pippin wrote: > I think there are two different styles being used on > the list, which results in confusion or unfulfilled > expectations. Absolutely agreed! In fact, this conversation is beginning to remind me very much of a discussion I had with a housemate a while back over Naomi Wolf's _The Beauty Myth._ Now, _The Beauty Myth_ is a book that I like, and the reason that I like it is because it is written with such passion, and such skill, and such rhetorical force. It makes extreme statements, and it makes them with courage. It does not vacillate, and it does not waffle. It is not *wishy-washy.* It is not balanced, it is not careful, and it is not fair. It does not try to see both sides of the argument. That is not its purpose. It is at base a work of polemic, and I personally think that it is a very enjoyable one. My housemate, on the other hand, disliked this book intensely, not because he disagreed with its basic premises (he did not), but rather, because he felt that the book's "case" was weakened by the fact that its author was in places extremely sloppy with her facts and figures, by the fact that she was not careful to qualify her statements, by the fact that she did not give any attention to the other side of the argument, by the fact that the work is not "fair." This bewildered me, frankly, because I know that my housemate is very fond of many other works of polemic and apology. I therefore could not understand why he should have been so bothered on those grounds. After a long and mutually frustrating discussion over this, we finally came to the realization that the reason for our disparate readings of this text had really been rooted in our expectations. My housemate had sat down with the book expecting it to be a kind of academic social science text. He had therefore been reading it with the expectation that it would present certain types of material (facts, figures, statistics), and that it would then analyze this data in a very particular way. I, on the other hand, had sat down with this book with the understanding that it was a book-length *essay.* I had therefore been reading it in a frame of mind which recognizes polemic as one of the acceptable -- and, indeed, expected -- forms of discourse that the narrative might take. Unsurprisingly, therefore, I was in the end pleased with the work, while my housemate was taken aback and disappointed. Literary analysis is in part such an interesting field, IMO, because it incorporates quite a wide variety of narrative approaches. There are people who do things like tallying up the number of occurrences of specific words in texts and compiling concordances of them. These people are engaged in literary analysis. Then there are books like William Empson's _Milton's God,_ which launches an all-out attack on the character of God in Milton's "Paradise Lost" -- and in the process, attacks quite a number of aspects of standard Judeo-Christian theology as well. This book is a work of polemic. It is also a work of literary analysis. And then there are works which fall somewhere in between these two extremes: Stanley Fish's _Surprised By Sin,_ for example, which evaluates "Paradise Lost" neither through concordance nor polemic, but instead, by proposing a very particular interpretation of reader response to the text. This, too, is a work of literary analysis. I think that it is important for us to bear in mind that polemic has its place -- and a very well-established place, at that -- in discussions of works of literature. Literary analysis is not a court of law. We are not judges, and the characters are not on trial for their lives. There is no onus upon us to be "fair" to fictional characters, or to give both sides of an argument over their qualities either equal weight or equal hearing. I also think that we might want to keep in mind that the discussions taking place on this forum are *conversations.* They have more than one participant. This even further reduces the onus on any *one* person in a thread to try to cover all sides of an issue, or to give equal time to various interpretations of the text. We are having a conversation here, not drafting a constitution. All that said, there are rules of "fairness" that I do think we try to engage in. We try not to be rude to *real* people. We try not to utilize ad hominem attacks against our fellow list-members. We try not to insult real human beings, people who are made of flesh and blood and bone, people who have feelings that can be hurt. Fairness to the *characters,* though? Sparing the characters' feelings? Refraining from saying mean things about them? Giving them the benefit of the doubt? I see no moral obligation to do any such thing. The characters are not real, but fictional, and they can no more be hurt by anything that we say on this forum than my desk chair can be. I am therefore often taken aback by statements that seem to draw conclusions about people's relationships with other *people* based on their favored style of discussing a *text.* Amy: > I suppose the disagreement between us may come down to > the fact that we may speak differently about real-life > people. But fictional characters *aren't* "real-life people!" I think that the disagreement here may actually come down more to the difference between literary and fannish reading practice: in other words, between the conception of the fictional characters as constructs, and the conception of them as real people. These are slightly different ways of viewing the text. Both of them are valid, and nearly everyone engages in both types of reading simultaneously when they sit down to enjoy a story. We also usually engage in both types of thinking on this list when we sit down to *discuss* the story. Usually...But not always. And that's when we get into trouble. Interestingly enough, the "trouble" nearly always starts up when somebody expresses a negative opinion about a popular character. Funny, how that works. I am not going to use the Dread "M Word" here , but it does seem to me that this distinction -- between reading practice which accepts the characters as constructs and that which insists on treating them as real people -- has been coming up frequently of late, perhaps because shipping arguments seem to bring it out in people. So Maria, for example, says that she did not like Cho Chang. She felt a strong sense of dislike for her, and on reflection, realized that this was probably because she didn't care for Cho's narrative function in the story. Now, this is a perfectly valid -- and, indeed, very common -- reason for a reader to feel a strong sense of dislike for a fictional character. It is, in fact, precisely the same reason that Eileen cited a while back for feeling such a strong dislike for Bartemius Crouch Sr's dear departed wife. Yet when Maria said this, she got responses which implied that her reader response was somehow "unfair," that it was unjust to "hold Cho accountable" for her own narrative function in the text. The argument here, if I have it right, is: "It's not *Cho's* fault that she serves a function you don't like!" Okay. Now the thing about this is that in real life, it is indeed very unfortunate when people dislike or speak badly of people they do not know based on the "functions" they fill, or based on other people with whom they associate them. That's *prejudice,* right? It's unjust. Cho Chang and Barty Crouch Sr., however, are *not* real people. They are *like* real people, in that they can come to feel so very real to us that we start responding to them with the same depths of emotion that we ordinarily reserve for genuine human beings, but at the end of the day, they are fictive constructs. It is therefore perfectly "fair" to feel a liking or a disliking for them on account of the narrative functions that they play in the story, or because they remind us of people we have known in real life, or because we simply do not like their "types." Cho and Barty and Ron and Harry and Remus are not being "maligned" by such reader responses. How can they be? They have no feelings which we the readers can hurt. To the extent that they can be said to exist as "people" at all, they exist on a different plane of reality than we as readers do. To the extent that they can be said to have "feelings" at all, those feelings can only be hurt by the people who exist on the same plane of reality that they do -- in other words, by the other fictional characters. Cho and Ron and Harry and Remus Lupin (whether Ever So Evil or not) can all hurt each *other.* But we the readers? Nah. We can't touch 'em. We can, however, hurt each others' feelings. Accusing other people of rhetorical dishonesty is an effective way of doing this. Another is expressing the opinion that other people's ways of discussing or responding to literary characters must in some way reflect upon how they treat real people in real life. Elkins From amani at charter.net Fri Jan 24 01:31:23 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 20:31:23 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron in Cos (was Ron and the Trouble with Veela) References: <20030123180953.62761.qmail@web20009.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00d101c2c348$4e869660$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50446 golden faile: I was wondering, where in COS do we see evidence of Ron having an interest in Hermione? Rebecca: I always felt that Rons taking up for Hermione when Malfoy called her a Mudblood in CoS was indicative of his true feelings for her. Laila: Could be... but let me ask you this. If someone insults one of your best friends wouldn't you come to their rescue? Rebecca: But this wasn't just one incident. When Hermione was petrified and Malfoy made the comment about wishing she'd been killed and the bet the next one would be (pg 267 paperback US ed) he said he was going to kill Draco with his bare hands. And, although Harry is probably upset, the text gives no indication of that. And Ron kept trying to get loose from Harry and Dean for a while. Harry didn't come to the rescue of one of his best friends. Actually, I take that back; he came to the rescue of Ron. Who knows what Snape would've done to him. But Ron's action wasn't in defense of anyone. It couldn't help Hermione. It was just an emotional reaction. Taryn: Because Ron is extremely tempermental, whereas Harry is /not/. Ron has to be held back MULTIPLE times. But Harry is one who has lived a lifetime of bottling up emotions and holding his temper. We don't see it break nearly so much as Ron's. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From susannahlm at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 01:40:16 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 01:40:16 -0000 Subject: TBAY/SHIP: Avast Maties! or: on the S.S. pumpkin pie (WAS:R and H do TOO Banter) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50447 Epigraph [This is not a poem about banter. This is a poem about playing an instrument, and about making love. But it kind of fits. Or maybe not. Anyway, it's a cool poem.] The Guitarist Tunes Up With what attentive courtesy he bent Over his instrument; Not as a lordly conqueror who could Command both wire and wood, But as a man with a loved woman might, Inquiring with delight What slight essential things she had to say Before they started, he and she, to play. Frances Cornford (1886-1960) -------- "AHOY!" Derannimer lowered her hand. She had been shading her eyes, but it wasn't necessary any more. Over the bright sun came a large dark shadow. The thing moved, slowly, until it was hanging right over her head. Then it stopped. Staring up at it, she saw a sudden flash and ripple of silver, as something shot over the edge of the boat and began to fall towards her. It fell very fast. Closer and closer and-- She took a step back, and the thing snapped down into place front of her, and then wavered slightly in the breeze. A rope ladder. Made of some very odd looking, slender, silvery rope. It didn't look particularly sturdy. She hesitated. "Look alive there!" came a shout from the dark shape above her. Derannimer couldn't help but think that if she entrusted her weight to the helpful little ladder in front of her then she would look alive for about five seconds and after that goodness only knew how she would look. [1] But there weren't many other ways of getting up there. She reached out a hand, gave the ladder a firm tug--it didn't collapse--and then started up it. Several minutes later, she clapped a hand over the deck rail, and felt someone grab onto her wrist. "Right then," said a cheerful Ebony, as Derannimer, having clambered onto the deck, brushed off her pants and gazed around with approval. "Is this your first trip up on a SHIP before?" "Uh. . . yes," said Derannimer. She was busy staring at the view. The Bay really looked gorgeous from this height--a little drop of turquoise, moving slowly as the SHIP picked up speed again, and ringed with white sand. The enormous storm to the East didn't exactly look gorgeous, but it was pretty nifty too. "Well, you're doing quite well for a beginner; you've certainly got good taste in vessels at any rate!" Ebony laughed, and looked at the gleaming row of cannons with pride. "Welcome to the S.S. Pumpkin Pie." "Yes, well, about that," said Derannimer, leaning over the rail to look down on the Big Bang. The destroyer, where she had been standing not ten minutes ago, looked utterly binky. *Like a little toy boat,* she thought, and decided not to mention this to Captain Cindy when she got back. "I didn't just come up here for the view, you know. I've been watching the recent. . . " "Brawling," supplied Ebony. ". . . brawling from down on the Bay, and I noticed something about--" Derannimer doesn't finish her sentence, as Ebony suddenly grabs her arm and yanks her about four yards to the right. A second later, a large and fiery something slams into the deck where Derannimer was standing. "Sorry about that," says Ebony. She reaches out a hand to help up Derannimer, who had fallen down when the thing hit the SHIP. "You get so you can spot 'em coming, after a while." "Right," says Derannimer. She is curious, and as Ebony goes over to inspect the still-smoking something-or-other, Derannimer does the same. It is a cannon-ball. The smoke is coming from something carved into the side--a pattern of glowing lines. As the smoke clears, Derannimer realizes that the lines form letters, and words, which slowly rise into the air with the smoke. Ebony and Derannimer read them with great interest. "Here are some examples," begin the words, "of what I consider to be successful, two-sided bantering (sorry about length! -- but this is probably the main reason we R/Hers so love our ship)" The message continues for quite a space. The two theorists read it, then watch as it words drift higher and higher. The words dim as they rise, until finally they break into scattered smoke, and fall towards the water. There is a moment of silence. Derannimer frowns. "Eb?" she asks. "Mmm?" "This is from the Good Ship, right?" Ebony laughs. "Yep. From--" the cannon-ball has now cooled enough for her to touch it, and she rolls it over to expose another set of fiery letters, which begin drifting upwards themselves. "From Angua. Message 50348. "Well, I mean, of course it's from the Good Ship. I mean, who else regularly tries to knock us out of the sky? "And us them, too," she adds after a moment's thought. Derannimer is still frowning. "But. . .well, exactly what is she saying? Is she saying that *that,*" she gestures downwards at the smoky remnants of Angua's attack, "that *that* is *banter?*" "Yes, I think that's what she's saying. I mean, I wouldn't, but she apparently--" "AAAAAARR-AAAAAARRRGH! WHO CALLS *THAT* BANTER!?" interupts Derannimer, quite rudely. "Well, I wouldn't, but--" "That is not--NOT NOT NOT NOT--*BANTER!!*" Penny, desiring to know what on board might be making that curious noise, walks over. Derannimer stops yelling at the distant silhouette of the Good Ship, and turns to Penny. "Oh, hello Penny," she says cheerfully. "Hi," says Penny. "I came over because I heard rather a rum noise." "That was her," explains Ebony, pointing. "That was me," agrees Derannimer. "I was screaming at the Good Ship." "Ah. "Well, we do that a lot around here. What about?" "Angua," says Ebony matter-of-factly. "She was using that old R/H banter line and--" "Ooh, yes," says Penny, now looking quite angry herself. "I tried to argue with her about that one. Calling what Hermione and Ron do "banter" is an insult to a very fine art." "Yeah, well," says Ebony, "Angua's not obviously buying. She just fired a lot of examples of what she calls 'succesful two-sided bantering.' "And I thought it was quite outrageous," says a huffy Derannimer. "I don't think there was one example of honest-to-goodness banter in that whole thing." ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> Angua (who probably meant well) wrote: "Here are some examples of what I consider to be successful, two-sided bantering (sorry about length! -- but this is probably the main reason we R/Hers so love our ship)" Oh, Angua. I don't mind the length. I'm sorry (well, no I'm not) but I have to take a great deal of issue with your examples. All of 'em. First off, though, a definition, so you know my sense of the topic, and where I'm coming from: banter is reciprocal, playful, witty conversation; not taunting, and not malicious teasing. It is *understood* by both parties to be ever-so-slightly facetious; if one party of a conversation, or both, is completely serious in what they are saying, then it is not banter. Banter is conducted--and this is highly important, to my mind--*deliberately, in play, and for the amusement of the banterers.* An exchange that is funny to one of the characters, and not to the other (such as one-sided teasing, or straight-man, funny-man) is not banter, because banter is *intrinsically* reciprocal. An exchange where both of the characters is being amusing, but neither of them knows it, is not banter, because banter is intentional. If you say a funny thing in all seriousness, then you aren't bantering, because banter is intentional, it *has* to be--*no one ever bantered accidently.* (And by the way, it's not always sexually charged, though it certainly can be. Two friends can banter.) Banter is rather like a highly-stylized 17th century dance. Or, at its sharper extremes, like fencing. But it is always a form of *play.* So, on with my take on the examples. >Here's one where Ron feeds Hermione the straight line: >"And you could ask your parents if they know who Flamel is," said >Ron. "It'd be safe to ask them." >"Very safe, as they're both dentists," said Hermione. This is certainly cute, but it's not banter; it's not reciprocal. Ron says something serious, Hermione comes back with a rather humorous response. But, IIRC, the scene ends there. It's not like Ron picks up on Hermione's line and runs with it. *That* would be banter. This is just a clever response to an honest question. >Here's one where they do a quick-fire Pat and Mike routine: >Speaking quietly so tht no one else would hear, Harry told the other >two about Snape's sudden, sinister desire to be a Quidditch referee. >"Don't play," said Hermione at once. >"Say you're ill," said Ron. >"Pretend to break your leg," Hermione suggested. >"Really break your leg," said Ron. But. . . they're both in dead earnest. They're not aware of saying anything funny. Banter is intentional, and they're really *not* intending to be funny. They're trying to tell their joint best friend how to avoid (they think) grievous bodily harm. It's funny to the reader, but it's not intended by the speakers to amuse. It's not *playful.* >Here's one where Hermione feeds Ron the straight line: >"So you mean the Stone's only safe as long as Quirrell stands up to >Snape?" said Hermione in alarm. >"It'll be gone by next Tuesday," said Ron. Again, not really banter. Firstly, Hermione is serious. More than that, Hermione is "in alarm." Have you ever in your life heard of someone *bantering in alarm?* No? Thought not. The humorous remark is entirely one-sided, and, as with the "dentists" example, the scene ends here, so we don't know how Hermione responded. I kind of doubt she suddenly started bantering. I *hope* she didn't. Secondly, a more general point: when you say "Hermione feeds Ron the straight line". . . well, that's half true. See, if they were bantering, Hermione might indeed say something dead-pan, and hang a minute, wait for Ron to catch her up on it, play along with her, and sass something back. (See, I really *love* banter. That's why I bothered to write this ridiculous post.) It often does happen, in banter, that one person *does* feed the other the straight line. But here, Hermione isn't really feeding Ron anything. *JKR* is. But Hermione isn't. She is simply asking an alarmed question, and, actually, she asks it of *Harry.* (Harry spoke right before her remark.; she interupted him.) She isn't feeding Ron anything. Or Harry, obviously. Again, there is no intent to banter here, and I know this is getting annoying, but you cannot banter accidently. Any more then you can *fence* accidently. (Well, I s'pose you could *try*. . .) >All of the above were from PS/SS. Here is one from CoS, where >Ron "wins" again: >Most Potente Potions?" she repeated suspiciously, trying to take the >note from Hermione; but Hermione wouldn't let go. >"I was wondering if I could keep it," she said breathlessly. >"Oh, come on," said Ron, wrenching it from her grasp and thrusting >it at Madam Pince. "We'll get you another autograph. Lockhart'll >sign anything if it stands still long enough." Not banter. Hermione, again, is in dead earnest. Moony, but in dead earnest. And she's not even *addressing* Ron. Ron is also, in a way, in dead earnest. At any rate, he's certainly not playing along with Hermione in any sense. He is making a rude and utterly true and really quite witty remark about the guy she's crushing on. He's not bantering with her. (Notice, by the way, the preposition--please do notice, 'cause I only just thought of this. The preposition used with the verb "banter" is "with." We don't say "He bantered *at* her." We say "He bantered *with* her." Banter is a mutual thing.) Anyway, he's really impatient here: "wrenching. . .thrusting. . . "Oh, come on." I'm not sure that you can banter impatiently, either. >From PoA: >"No," said Hermione shortly. "Have either of you seen my copy of >Numerology and Gramatica?" >"Oh, yeah, I borrowed it for a bit of bedtime reading," said Ron, >but very quietly. Oh, now, come off it. First: again, this is entirely one-sided. Hermione is in dead earnest, so--say it along with me, boys and girls!--she is *not bantering.* And she's talking to both of the boys, and is again not solely addressing Ron. Second: here's the key-- "said Ron, *but very quietly.*" (Emphasis is obviously mine.) He doesn't even want her to hear him--or that's what *I* always assumed the "but very quietly" meant. Harry is the only one to hear that line. I mean, in a way, Ron is *talking to Harry.* It reminds me of Ron's remarks in Divination, actually. "And do you know what I saw there, my dears?" "An ugly old bat in out-size specs?" Here, Ron isn't addressing Hermione any more than he's addressing Trelawny in Divination. (And he's not bantering with *her* either.) If he's not even addressing Hermione, he'll have a job bantering with her. It's pretty darn hard to banter with someone you're not even *addressing.* And if Hermione had heard him, do you think she'd play along? Or do you think she'd snap at him? >And one where Hermione gets the funny line: >"I went to see Professor McGonagall this morning, just before >breakfast. I've decided to drop Muggle Studies." >"But you passed your exam with three hundred and twenty percent!" >said Ron. >"I know," sighed Hermione, "but I can't stand another year like this >one...." >"...Yeah, I've been thinking about them too," said Ron. "Harry, >you've got to come and stay with us. I'll fix it up with Mum and >Dad, then I'll call you. I know how to use the fellytone now --" >"A telephone, Ron," said Hermione. "Honestly, *you* should take >Muggle Studies next year...." This time, I honestly don't think *either* of them is trying to be funny. I mean, Ron isn't--we know he doesn't know the proper pronunciation. And I never thought that Hermione was joshing him-- given her extremely studious nature, I've always assumed she was completely serious. They are not (my fingers are at least as bored as you are) bantering. >In GoF, there are so many it's hard to choose. Here are a few of my >favorites: >"Come off it," said Ron, starting to laugh. "Durmstrang's got to be >about the same size as Hogwarts -- how are you going to hide a great >big castle?" >"But Hogwarts is hidden," said Hermione, in surprise. "Everyone >knows that... well, everyone who's read Hogwarts, A History, >anyway." >"Just you, then," said Ron. Again, Hermione isn't--I'm noticing a pattern here. I honestly didn't know that there would be one. But I think there is. Hermione says something serious, to Ron or to someone else, and Ron makes a smart remark. Now, don't get me wrong; I *enjoy* Ron's smart remarks. But Ron makes those sorts of remarks to Harry sometimes, too. I just randomly flipped open COS, and found: "Harry looked at Ron, bewildered. '*That* looks more like Goyle,' said Ron. 'That's how he looks every time a teacher asks him a question.'" And think about all his Divination commentary, and the things he says about the skrewts. Ron *always* makes smart remarks. He is Fred and George's brother, after all. That's just Ron. Of course he does that to Hermione as well. But she doesn't usually respond in kind, does she. (Actually, does she *ever* respond in kind? Playing back at him?) I mean, it's all pretty one-sided here, isn't it? And in your example above, again, *Hermione isn't playing along.* *This is not banter.* >"You're eating again, I notice," said Ron, watching Hermione adding >liberal amounts of jam to her toast too. >"I've decided there are better ways of making a stand about elf >rights," said Hermione haughtily. >"Yeah... and you were hungry," said Ron, grinning. Same as above: Hermione's not playing. And have you ever heard of anyone bantering "haughtily?" >Here's a nice one: >"Well, at least the skrewts are small," said Ron as they made their >way back up to the castle for lunch an hour later. >"They are now," said Hermione in an exasperated voice, "but once >Hagrid's found out what they eat, I expect they'll be six feet >long." >"Well, that won't matter if they turn out to cure seasickness or >something, will it?" said Ron, grinning slyly at her. >"You know perfectly well I only said that to shut Malfoy up," said >Hermione. "As a matter of fact I think he's right. The best thing to >do would be to stamp on the lot of them before they start attacking >us all." This is closer. At least they're having an exchange. But does Hermione rise to Ron's (rather delightful) tease? Does she return his sly grin? No, she does not. In fact, she says "You know perfectly well," as if she doesn't even *know* she's being teased. And after she says "You know perfectly well," she goes on to re-iterate her honest opinion. (If she were bantering, wouldn't she say something like: "No, well you're right: *that's* true!" and gone on about the potential marvelous uses of the skrewt, as Harry laughed and Ron tried to top her with ever-more-outrageous suggestions? I swear, if R/H ever gave us a *single scene* like that, then I would welcome it with open arms. As I said before, I do dearly love banter.) >Ah, I'm having to leave such good ones out -- there are too many. >The bouncing ferret one, the Cedric/Lockhart one... But I can't >leave this one out: >"Hello," she said, "I've just finished!" >"So have I!" said Ron triumphantly, throwing down his quill. >Hermione sat down, laid the things she was carrying in an empty >armchair, and pulled Ron's predictions toward her. >"Not going to have a very good month, are you?" she said >sardonically as Crookshanks curled up in her lap. >"Ah well, at least I'm forewarned," Ron yawned. >"You seem to be drowning twice," said Hermione. >"Oh am I?" said Ron, peering down at his predictions. "I'd better >change one of them to getting trampled by a rampaging hippogriff." >"Don't you think it's a bit obvious you've made these up?" said >Hermione. >"How dare you! said Ron, in mock outrage. "We've been working like >house-elves here!" >Hermione raised her eyebrows. >"It's just an expression!" said Ron hastily. Now *that* is something like banter. (That entire scene, btw, is utterly wonderful.) Except for the house-elf exchange at the end: Hermione's really not kidding about *that.* (Remember her 'nasty look at Ron?') >That is some top-quality bantering there! It's not a bit bad. But I honestly do think it's the only one you've mentioned that qualifies, so far. >Notice how they've improved in both quality and length since the >first book? For only fourteen, especially. And, look, it continues: >"Not spew," said Hermione impatiently. "It's S-P-E-W. Stands for the >Society for the Protection of Elvish Welfare." >"Never heard of it," said Ron. >"Well, of course you haven't," said Hermione briskly, "I've only >just started it." >"Yeah?" said Ron in mild surprise. "How many members have you got?" >"Well -- if you two join -- three," said Hermione. >"And you think we want to walk around wearing badges saying 'spew,' >do you?" said Ron. AAAAAARR-AAAAAARRRGH!! Honestly, not *again!* Hermione is not playing along! Look at the *adverbs,* for the love of Mike! There's "impatiently," and "briskly," and, in the line right after you end your quotage, "hotly." No one banters impatiently! or briskly! or hotly! They are not bantering; they are *bickering!* They. Are. Not. Bantering. (Have you ever noticed that, when you see a word a lot of times, it stops making any sense? Banter. BANTER BANTER BANTER BANTER. Ahem.) >If JKR intends Hermione to end up with Harry, she should NOT be >giving her this kind of chemistry with Ron. Ah. Now here we get to one of the Great Divisions (there are many) between the R/Hers and the H/Hers. The R/Hers think that the argument between Ron and Hermione is a form of banter. They think that Ron and Hermione both enjoy the arguing. As they see it, Ron and Hermione have a frank and light and strong relationship that is openly expressed in their frank and light and strong and spark-beladen and mutually enjoyable hashing-things-out. The H/Hers--or, rather, this H/Her--see it another way. Here's how I see the arguments between Ron and Hermione. She is being serious, and he teases her like he teases everyone and everything else. She either can't quite tell that he's teasing, or gets mad at him when he does. Look at how frequently she reacts to his remarks impatiently; he is making her *lose her patience.* Ron does enjoy the arguing, at least when it's just at the "teasing-Hermione" stage. But she doesn't enjoy it. And so she snaps at him, which irritates him, because she *just won't lighten up,* and so *he* gets mad, and they just end up taking pot-shots at each other. He *always* barbs her--which is pretty easy really; I love Hermione, but she's *prickly*--and she *always* rises to the bait. (Rising to the bait, btw, is not at all the same thing as "playing along." Rising to the bait is not a good thing, in a relationship.) And neither of them ever lets the other get away with anything. It's not romantic; it's exhausting. It's like the Twins and Percy, almost. And I really do think that it's significant that Harry got so tired of their--what's the word used? Is it "sniping?"--that he goes to the Owlery to get away from it. I know, I know, it's been cited a hundred times--but still. Banter is not so unpleasant to listen to. (Good banter is actually a *treat* to listen to.) >Listen to the timing on this one: >"What's that?" said Ron, pointing at a large dish of some sort of >shellfish stew that stood beside a large steak-and-kidney pudding. >"Bouillabaisse," said Hermione. >"Bless you," said Ron. >"It's French," said Hermione. "I had it on holiday summer before >last. It's very nice." >"I'll take your word for it," said Ron, helping himself to black >pudding. Hermione's not trying to banter. She's just matter-of-factly informing him. Even when Ron says "Bless you," an opening for banter if ever there was one, she acts like she *hasn't even heard him,* and just continues with her explanation. >Here's one where Hermione gets the last word: >"But I had my wand hidden up my sleeve," he assured Padma Patil, who >seemed to be a lot keener on Ron now that he was getting so much >attention and was making a point of talking to him every time they >passed in the corridors. "I could've taken those mer-idiots any time >I wanted." >"What were you going to do, snore at them?" said Hermione waspishly. Ron isn't bantering with Hermione; he wasn't even speaking to her, he was speaking to Padma. And Hermione wasn't bantering with him; you don't banter "waspishly." "Waspishly," is not playful, it's reprimanding. And one for Ron: >"Aren't you two ever going to read Hogwarts, A History?" >"What's the point?" said Ron. "You know it by heart, we can just ask >you." Hermione, *again,* is in dead earnest. She is also speaking to both of the boys. Ron, *again,* is simply teasing her. And I don't know for sure, because I couldn't find this quote in GOF, but I am willing to bet that after Ron's line, Hermione, *again,* refuses to respond to him on his terms, and either ignores his remark or snaps at him for it. I am at any rate willing to bet that she doesn't start *bantering* with him. Look, I'm sorry, honestly, I know I'm starting to sound rather sourable here, but don't you ever get *tired* of the way they interact? I mean, Ron gets some good lines in sometimes, but I sometimes do think, after I've read the two of them for a while, that I probably would have gone up to the Owlery with Harry. >And another one for Hermione: >You can't Disapparate on the Hogwarts grounds, haven't I told you >enough times?" said Hermione. >"Okay... how's this for a theory," said Ron excitedly. "Krum >attacked Crouch -- no, wait for it -- and then Stunned himself!" >"And Mr. Crouch evaporated, did he?" said Hermione coldly. >"Oh yeah..." Ron's excited, Ron's trying out a theory, Hermione's mad at him for implying Krum's involvement, so she *corrects him.* "Coldly." There is no bantering in sight. There is seldom any bantering in sight, with these two. Their exchanges may be enjoyable to the reader, but they are not enjoyable to Ron and Hermione. The real reason I wanted that Guitarist poem up there was just for the sake of the last line, which I love, and which kept coming into my head, as I was thinking about banter. "Before they started, he and she, to play." Ron and Hermione just aren't playing. ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> ><))"> Ebony reached inside her pocket, and fished out a match box. "Um. . . Eb?" asked Derannimer uncertainly. Ebony looked up from the shining black cannon. "Yeah?" "Mind if I do that?" Ebony smiled, and handed Derannimer the matchbox. "Be my guest." Derannimer (who must get back down to the Bay, before the Captain gets mad at her, but who quite likes the view from up here) From probono at rapidnet.com Fri Jan 24 01:46:28 2003 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 01:46:28 -0000 Subject: What will come in book 5ish In-Reply-To: <00ea01c2c338$15ee0320$2d15570c@pavilion> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50448 Cathy wrote: >I don't think Draco is any genius in his classes. from CoS: > > "Ah, the Hand of Glory!" said Mr. Borgin, abandoning Mr. Malfoy's list and > scurrying over to Draco. "Insert a candle and it gives light only ot the > holder! Best friend of thieves and plunderers! Your son has fine taste, > sir." > > "I hope my son will amount to more than a thief or a plunderer, Borgin," > said Mr. Malfoy coldly, and Mr. Borgin said quickly, "no offense, sir, no > offense meant -" > > "Though if his grades don't pick up," said Mr. Malfoy, more coldly still, > "that may indeed be all he is fit for - " > > This gives me the impression of someone who is not anywhere near the top of > his class. Draco goes on to blame the teachers for having favorites like > Hermione. I think that when Mr. Malfoy went on to comment "I would have > thought you'd be ashamed that a girl of no wizard family beat you in every > exam" it was just to embarass and shame Draco further. > > ~Cathy~ Me again: Yes, that's the quote! It's interesting how differently we interpereted this passage. I read Lucius as being an overbearing father who most likely has impossibly high expectations for his one and only son (and heir, I might add), Draco. My reasoning being that only Hermione is singled out as beating Draco in every exam. We know Hermione is the head of the class and if Draco was at the bottom or even middle of the class, probably more than one Muggle would have had better marks than him. I know I'm reading between the lines of this passage, but for me it offers alot of insight into Draco's character and why he behaves the way he does. At this point in Draco's life, we see how much he idolizes his father. He mentions him whenever he can, and even directly quotes him. He also tries to emulate Lucius in his own behaviors, 'opinions', even his choice of friends (the sons of Lucius' friends). I couldn't imagine living in the home environment that I envision Draco must live in, but it is one that is oft- repeated through literature when it comes to father-son relationships. I see Draco spending the rest of his life (or at least the series), trying to gain the respect of his father and never getting it....OR,just maybe he cracks, rebels, and instead sets out to destroy his own father. Now, that's what I'd call fun! -Tanya From snorth at ucla.edu Fri Jan 24 01:46:41 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 17:46:41 -0800 Subject: Ron and the Trouble with Veela References: Message-ID: <004501c2c34a$71e6c2e0$d3447442@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 50449 Tammy: > Now, after saying that, I find it interesting that Arthur had to cover his ears. If he was a strong enough wizard he might be able >to ignore their songs. Does this mean Arthur can't throw off the imperious curse? This, I believe, will foreshadow at least one of >the Weasleys being controlled by the imperious curse. Hrm... I think we've (including my earlier post on this subject) all missed something important here. In the first veela encounter before the Quidditch final, there are a lot of Veela, *singing*. I'm not entirely certain that anyone could have resisted, which is why Arthur plugs his ears. It may be that willpower has something to do with resisting one veela (or half/quarter veela) at close range, but we never hear about Fleur singing, and singing seems to play a large part in their mind control -Scott From lupinesque at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 02:13:13 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 02:13:13 -0000 Subject: Real characters & persuasive argument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50450 (Note: I see that there's a post farther on in this thread by Pippin, and another by Elkins. I haven't read either one of them yet.) Elkins wrote: > Amy, I think that you are still misunderstanding the > nuances and subtleties of the conversation that had > actually been taking place, before it became diverted > into a defensive exchange over whether people's readings > are a by-product of the long wait for OoP, whether > people were or were not "trashing" characters, and so > forth. What do you mean by "diverted"? This is a free-flowing conversation. Any of us can take a line that intrigues us from a post and go with it, even though it is just a side comment by the original poster. We have to be careful not to misrepresent the poster's intent, of course, but I plead innocent to that charge (more on that in a bit). I take the conversation in a direction that interests me. If others don't find that direction interesting, the thread will die. If the people who preceded me in the thread don't like where I'm taking it, what's the problem? They don't have to read it. Here's an example from just today where I was on the other side of this phenomenon. Penny and I were talking about ambiguity in shipping and David proposed another, postmodern direction that the discussion might take. He was quite explicit, in fact, about it being a different point than either of us was trying to make. Good, and Godspeed! Either or both of us can follow David's new spin on the thread if we're so inclined, stay with the interpretations we were hashing out, or quit the topic entirely--but I hope if we do one of the latter two, we won't complain that David's "diverting" the thread. I tried to make it clear that I was not taking issue with Ebony's post, and only to some extent doing so with Eileen's, but that I was following my train of thought that started with those posts. I think it's perfectly fair for me to say "this reminds me of something that's been bothering me . . . " without imputing everything that's been bothering me to the post that triggered the thought. Ebony objected (50199) and I apologized for being unclear (50254) and restated this point more explicitly. > This really frustrates me, not least of which because I > feel that the arguments of the posters were *themselves* > rather badly mischaracterized -- dare I even say > "flattened?" -- by this digression. How did I mischaracterize the posters' arguments? I don't believe I ever said that Eileen did *nothing* but flatten the nuances of Ron and Harry. But I did think she flattened them, and that was the bit I was interested in. If it isn't the bit Eileen is interested in, or you are interested in, or anyone else is interested in, please skip my post. I won't be offended. Elkins summarized my post thus: > I think that the fact that we've been waiting so long for > OoP has had an unfortunate effect on the nature of our > discourse. It makes me sad when people trash the characters. > When you cite Ron and Harry's inconsiderate behavior without > offering up examples of their kind and generous actions, > you flatten out the characters. Furthermore, it is not > a persuasive argument. If you want to convince me that > Ron and Harry are inconsiderate, then you need to do > better than that. It makes me sad when people treat > fully realized and three dimensional characters as > shallow renditions of good or evil. > > > ----------------------- > > Do you see the problem here? Yes, if you portray it like that. But you have to skip the opening phrase of my post to portray it that way. I did not start out with "I think that the fact . . ." I wrote: > Ebony's post, and more especially Eileen's follow-up trashing Ron > *and* Harry, made me think about how we tend to chew up characters > if they are less than perfect. Again, I accept that "made me think" wasn't a clear enough indication that I knew I was taking a 90-degree turn in the conversation. But I'll say it again. I was not trying to respond to all the subtleties and complexities of Ebony and Eileen's arguments. I knew that I was picking up on the end of a thread whose history I didn't know. It reminded me of something that had been on my mind before, and so I wrote about it. Then you quoted Ebony and asked a more abstract question about what constitutes good argument (50328), so I answered that (another turn in the conversation). I didn't intend by doing so to go back to the overall merits of Ebony's argument; I was responding only to the words in your post. Maybe I just shouldn't post if I can't read every post . . . :-( > For one thing, I don't think that the argument you were > addressing was the argument that either poster was trying > to make. In fact, one of the posters in the original > exchange went out of her way to *specify* that her intent > was *not* to persuade others to share her emotional response > to Ron and Harry. Indeed, the fact that different individuals > differ in their emotional responses was part and parcel of her > argument: "The things that bother me about Ron and Harry's > behavior don't even bother other *readers,* so why on > earth should I assume that they bother Hermione?" > > Now, admittedly, Eileen's rhetorical methods are sometimes > a little bit sly, so perhaps people simply didn't take her > meaning. Ebony's post, on the other hand, I thought was > very straightforward. Yet I felt that people's responses > flattened out both of their arguments by responding to > them as if they were just "Ron Is Ever So Evil" posts, or > somesuch. Who are "people"? I'm just one person. Are you taking issue with what I wrote about Ebony's argument, or what others wrote? Because it's usually more than I can manage to sort out my own argument, without being called upon to defend anyone else's. > You see, I'm not even *sure* what your actual objection > to Ebony's argument is. But whichever of the possibilities > it is, why not say *that,* rather than complaining about the > fact that Ebony had such a strong negative reader response > to Ron's pre-Yule Ball comments? I didn't. The reason you aren't sure what my objection to Ebony's argument is is that I didn't make one. Nothing I said was about the question of whether Hermione and Ron would be suited or how we might know. I responded to your use of Ebony as an example by then talking about what would make a coherent, relevant, possibly persuasive argument about Ron and Hermione's potential as a couple--but I should have chosen another example entirely, because I wasn't trying to respond to the shipping argument as such. Ebony wrote to me directly, >Why would I point out all of Ron's very good characteristics in an >essay in which I am speaking about why I do not like the idea of him >with Hermione, when such evidence is tangential to the topic? Now, I have an answer to that, which has nothing to do with whether I think Hermione likes Ron or not. I didn't give it in response to that post of Ebony's, but to a later post by you where you quoted it. And I basically replied that I don't think counterevidence *is* tangential, but is highly relevant and an excellent way to make a coherent and convincing argument. > Not every discussion of these books comes down to an argument > over character. I think that it really cripples our ability > to discuss the canon when someone's negative reader response > to a character can not even be cited on route to making a > wider point without the conversation immediately becoming > diverted. It's frustrating, that, because it reduces every > single conversation into "How DARE you say such a thing about > Character X?" You are right. I find it frustrating in both cases: when the poster was making a sophisticated point and the responder could only pick up that there was something negative about My Favorite Character, and when the poster is making a sophisticated point but undermines it him/herself by making a reductive, and thus diverting, comment. Jokes are okay, of course. > We see this all the time on the list, IMO. Someone suggests > that Lupin exhibits classic non-compliance behavior in regard > to his Wolfsbane Potion, and the response is "How DARE you say > that Lupin is bad?" Someone suggests that if Moody is the > 'Good Auror,' then just imagine what those Bad Aurors must > have been like, and the response is "How DARE you insult > Moody?" Someone says that she doesn't care for the Twins > because they behave like bullies, and it's "How DARE you > say that the Twins are pure unadulterated evil?" > > Someone makes a rather sophisticated argument about the > dangers of the affective fallacy in shipping arguments, > and the response is: "Why must everyone always be trashing > the characters?" > > I just find this so disheartening. Me too. That is indeed flattening behavior, and very discouraging. If I or anyone else does that, I'd suggest ignoring us is the best way to go. > I was perhaps unfairly conflating your comments with Petra's > comments about rhetorical ploys. If you did not mean to > make that argument, then I apologize. Thank you. I didn't, and the apology is accepted. (No criticism meant of Petra's comments, which I don't recall enough to criticize or affirm.) > I believe that where I saw it in your post was as the subtext > to the claim that certain types of discussions or arguments > are in some way a by-product of a lack of new canon: > > > We're like the Donner Party at this point. After two and a half > > years without fresh meat, we're reduced to cannibalism--not eating > > each other but munching on the characters we've got stashed in the > > hold. > > There really is a very insulting implication lurking around the > edges, IMO: namely, that you believe that others' arguments are > based in an artificial, unnatural, or in some other way over- > ratiocinated reading of the text. The subtext that I always > read into statements of this sort (which I do realize may not > have been your intent) is: "The reading you are proposing is > not instinctive or natural. It only came about due to the > long wait between volumes, rather than deriving naturally from > your engagement with the text. It is therefore in some sense > dishonest." I don't think that this is implied. I don't know *why* this is happening at this point, and I may be wrong that it has increased as the wait has gotten longer, but my impression is that the polarized ("flattened") views of the characters have gotten more common over my two years here. I would not presume to say that this is because people are reaching for over-ratiocinated readings. In fact, I think that what others might call over-ratiocinated readings are the saving of a long-running discussion that has no new material to work on, and I love to read them. They tend to be subtle, see characters as nuanced and complex, and make fascinating points that turn old understandings inside-out for me. Why then is cannibalism on the rise, if indeed it is? My guess is that we're frustrated--some of us with the books, which are no longer as rewarding as they were on the first 6 readings, others of us with people in the fandom whose quirks have started to grate--but I'm really just guessing. Amy Z From siskiou at earthlink.net Fri Jan 24 02:15:03 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:15:03 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: R/H question for Ebony (was Ron and Hermione do TOO banter!) In-Reply-To: <13317176671.20030123170553@earthlink.net> References: <13317176671.20030123170553@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <8421326402.20030123181503@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 50451 Hi, Thursday, January 23, 2003, 5:05:53 PM, I wrote: > That's why I never trust a critic's opinion ;) Reading over this again, I hope I didn't sound to caustic! I have a very dry and sarcastic sense of humor that gets misunderstood quite a bit, even in person :} I hope I didn't hurt your feelings, Ebony! If I did, I apologize! Anyhow, I just think there is more than one way to do something right (writing wise and otherwise) and while some things can definitely be critiqued objectively (spelling, grammar, plot, POV, style somewhat...), others are more colored by personal opinion. For example, the humor in HP, and the way people interpret and judge characters' behavior. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From robgonz0 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 02:20:02 2003 From: robgonz0 at yahoo.com (Robert Gonzalez) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 20:20:02 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Uncle Vernon a Wizard? References: Message-ID: <01fe01c2c34f$1b290120$32951c18@satx.rr.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50452 From: > Dumbledore may tell Harry that Uncle Vernon is a wizard who decided > to live as a Muggle. " My" Smelting stick theory says that uncle > Vernon carried that stick around as a wand. I would also say that > you could look at Hagrids entrance in PS and say that a wand could be > placed just about everywhere and anywhere. For example, one could > hide a wand in an umbrella. That can be found in PS U.S. version pg > 83. (Hagrid talking to Mr. Ollivander). Also in PS pg 32 U.S. it > says: > "As he looked at Dudley in his new knickerbockers, Uncle Vernon said > gruffly that it was the proudest moment in his life." This is > exactly how Petunia describes her parents' enthusiasm as Lily > received her letter from Hogwarts. > If Dudley turns out to be a wizard I bet he will either be the saving > or the downfall of Harry in the end of the Series. me: "Smelting stick"? I don't remember that part or have the book to look at right now but if you talking about what I think you are I thought Vernon was refering to a cricket bat from Smeltings the school. Hard to hide a wand in that. Rob From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 02:30:19 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:30:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron in Cos (was Ron and the Trouble with Veela) In-Reply-To: <00d101c2c348$4e869660$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: <20030124023019.89031.qmail@web20001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50453 --- Taryn Kimel wrote: > golden faile: > I was wondering, where in COS do we see evidence of > Ron having an interest > in Hermione? > > Rebecca: > I always felt that Rons taking up for Hermione when > Malfoy called her a > Mudblood in CoS was indicative of his true feelings > for her. > > Laila: > Could be... but let me ask you this. If someone > insults one of your best friends wouldn't you come > to their rescue? > > Rebecca: > But this wasn't just one incident. When Hermione > was > petrified and Malfoy made the comment about wishing > she'd been killed and the bet the next one would be > (pg 267 paperback US ed) he said he was going to > kill > Draco with his bare hands. And, although Harry is > probably upset, the text gives no indication of > that. > And Ron kept trying to get loose from Harry and Dean > for a while. > > Harry didn't come to the rescue of one of his best > friends. Actually, I take that back; he came to the > rescue of Ron. Who knows what Snape would've done > to > him. > > But Ron's action wasn't in defense of anyone. It > couldn't help Hermione. It was just an emotional > reaction. > > Taryn: > Because Ron is extremely tempermental, whereas Harry > is /not/. Ron has to be held back MULTIPLE times. > But Harry is one who has lived a lifetime of > bottling up emotions and holding his temper. We > don't see it break nearly so much as Ron's. > > --Taryn > Actually, the first quote attributed to me is not mine. Secondly, there was no indication that Harry was upset. He may have been. But usually we know what's going on in his head, and here we didn't. Personally, I think it's R/H all the way. I think many of their actions can interpreted as friendship, but that upon reading GoF that's thrown out the window. On a separate not, ou have to understand that even though I sometimes enjoy reading debate (and foolishly contribute occasionally) I don't understand the it. To me R/H is obvious. I see no H/H ambiguity. It just isn't there. H/Hers do give quotes, but the interpretation of those quotes does not make sense to me. It's not thoat those interpretations are impossible. They just seem so unlikely. To me it's like a hearing that a weight lifter picked up a tremendously heavy object and began carrying it across the room; he turns to his friend and says "give me a hand." He could mean "give me a round of applause for my impressive show of physical strength" but "give me some help here" is the obvious interpretation. Sometimes you have to look beyond the obvious, but it often seems like the arguements are stretching it. (Note: this particular comment does not refer to interepreting the Ron's attacking moment as friendship only but to the interpretations of the Yule Brawl and of Hermione's avoiding Ron's eyes and to various other seemingly obvious R/H moments). I know my interpretation is not shared by all. I don't have a problem with that. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From lupinesque at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 02:31:43 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 02:31:43 -0000 Subject: What's fairness got to do with it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50454 Am I being paranoid, or are you talking about me? > We can, however, hurt each others' feelings. > > Accusing other people of rhetorical dishonesty is an effective > way of doing this. If I'm correct in thinking that you're talking about me, and someone can find a place in this thread where I have accused anyone of rhetorical dishonesty or unfairness of any kind, I will eat a plateful of crow, without ketchup. Amy From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 02:38:21 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 02:38:21 -0000 Subject: PoA question and Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50455 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kermit13166 " wrote: > I have a question that is bugging me that perhaps someone can help me > with. In PoA, Sirius tells Harry that he was the one who sent the > Firebolt....10 yrs worth of gifts etc... My question is two > fold...One-how did he get to Gringotts to get his money out without > being seen and second Sirius said he gave Crookshanks the > order....Would no one find it odd that a cat delivers such an order? > Just wondering.... > > Kermit bboy_mn: Here is a link to the last time we had this discussion. I think that time pretty much every favored theory was presented. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/36990 My theory is the Goblins have a sense when something in 'fishy'; sort of like a truth detector. If you send a note that says 'pay this person this much', the Goblins can instinctively determine if it is valid or fraudulent. Next, Goblins take their job and money very seriously. It's their job to guard people's money, not run around catching criminals for the Ministry. Taking their job very seriously as they do, they are no inclined to give out private information about anyone and their money. The guard people's privacy as well as their money. So they got the note, which said something like the money was taken out in Harry's name. Since Sirius is Harry's Godfather, that may give Harry some degree of access to Sirius's account. So they have a sign note from a valid account holder that they determine to be a valid authorized request for the transfer of funds. That's their job, so they do it. The Ministry can catch their own criminals. Let's remember too that Molly Weasley also got into Harry's account without his direct expressed stated or written permission, but the Golbin's 'truth detect' determined that Molly request for money was valid and gave her the money. I think one of the reason the Goblins are in charge of the banks is that they have this intuitive sense of when something is shadey or forged or invalid, and they vigorously guard people's privacy and money with equal enthusiasm. As far as Crookshanks; first I think Crookshanks delivered an order form with authorization for payment to the Owl Post Office, not to Gringotts. Quidditch Supplies turned the authorization over the the bank for payment. The Goblins determined it was genuine and made the payment. Crookshanks didn't go to the bank. But then that's just my opinion. bboy_mn From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 02:39:33 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:39:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Evil!Lupin revisited (yes, again) WAS: Re: Real characters & persuasive argument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030124023933.69053.qmail@web40507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50456 Pippin wrote: >>I think there are two different styles being used on the list, which results in confusion or unfulfilled expectations. One is a sort of essay question response, as in "Lupin is Evil. Discuss" in which the poster would marshall both pros and cons before drawing a conclusion. >>The other one is like a position paper for a debate: "Resolved: Lupin is Evil --The argument against," which would present only one side. The poster's expectation would be that listees who disagree would respond with their own position, and the original poster could then offer a rebuttal.>> Hi, Pippin! I didn't really understand what kind of post this one was, but you conveniently (for me ) touched upon the Lupin thread, and since I recently got some new ideas about Lupin, I'm enthusiastically seizing the opportunity. I hope you haven't started to hate this subject yet. <> I did not read your ESE Lupin theory as flattening. Going off in another direction, it was really interesting, but IMO many of the pro-evil!Lupin in your original theory are debatable (and I believe many people have discussed them). << I was unsatisfied with the characterization and development of Lupin in several respects. Why was the reason he didn't take his potion and conveniently left the activated map in his office not addressed in the text>> It is addressed in the text. Scholastic paperback, p. 347 (Cat, Rat and Dog) says: ------------------------------------------------------ "The important thing is, I was watching it carefully this evening, because I had an idea that you, Ron, and Hermione might try and sneak out of the castle to visit Hagrid before his hippogriff was executed. And I was right, wasn't I" He had started to pace up and down, looking at them. Little patches of dust rose at his feet. "You might have been wearing your father's old cloak, Harry--" "How d'you know about the cloak?" "The number of times I saw James disappearing under it...," said Lupin, waving an impatient hand again. "The point is, even if you're wearing an Invisibility Cloak, you still show up on the Marauder's Map. I watched you cross the grounds and enter Hagrid's hut. Twenty minutes later, you left Hagrid, and set off back toward the castle. But you were now accompanied by somebody else." "What?" said Harry. "No, we weren't!" I couldn't believe my eyes," said Lupin, still pacing, and ignoring Harry's interruption. "I thought the map must be malfunctioning. How could he be with you?" "No one was with us!" said Harry. "And then I saw another dot, moving fast toward you, labeled Sirius Black.... I saw him collide with you; I watched as he pulled two of you into the Whomping Willow --" ----------------------------------------------------- IMO this implies that Lupin was so shocked that he forgot about everything. Of course, if one doesn't trust Lupin, one doesn't have to trust his words, but the main thing is that a reason is given. Why would JKR offer a reason for someone's actions twice? Yes, I'd feel a lot more comfortable if I got Dumbledore's opinion on everything (although after GoF I began to doubt Dumbledore's opinion too), but I don't think we can expect such a luxury. >>When Trelawney's voice goes from misty to crisp, we understand that the mistiness is an act. What are we to make of it that Lupin's voice alters suddenly from calm to steely, a steely voice that Harry has never heard from him before?>> Are you implying that since Trelawney's voice changed and we understood her mistiness was an act, then Lupin's change of tone means that his softness was an act too? I'm not sure we can infer that. Why should JKR write all her characters in the same manner? I make of it Lupin's wish to stop the pointless arguing that was going on and get on with the show. Remember, they haven't even revealed Pettigrew yet. The 'steely note' IMO adds an immense amount of depth to Lupin's character. Before that he was very soft-spoken, although we were given a clue that he might not be all that soft when he spoke to Harry about his jolly Hogsmeade adventures. In the Shrieking Shack we become aware that he is capable of being harsh too. It actually reminded me more of Dumbledore's transformation in GoF, when he rescued Harry from Crouch!Moody. Harry noticed an expression of fury on Dumbledore's face and understood why Voldemort was afraid of him. So, does that mean that all the time Dumbledore was soft he was faking it? I think not. >>Why does Rowling make Lupin and Sirius so similar? I, OTOH, think that she makes them very different, and I believe some people, including myself, have addressed this point. >>Those were all things that bothered me before I came up with the ESE theory.<< Oh. OK. So does that mean they don't bother you anymore, or do they still? If they don't you can just ignore what I said. >>I admit I presented it rather gleefully, and in a one sided way, but the glee came from solving one of Rowling's mysteries in advance (I think!), not "trashing" the character.<< I totally understand you. I know it feels really cool to develop an unusual theory (although your theories are much more formidable than mine are ), so a certain amount of glee is to be expected. But this word, "trashing," really bothers me. I realize that when it was first brought up it wasn't used in its most unnice sense, but it has such a negative connotation (my big thick Webster's defines the verb to trash as considering ignorant or contemptible). I haven't been on this list for very long, but I've *never* seen anyone trash a character. >>As for the one-sidedness, there are plenty of posts in which one can read what a good person Lupin is, and I did invite other people to present the opposing views.>> You mean support Evil!Lupin? Really, I don't know why no one did. On second thought, maybe I do. >> I think they can do a much better job than me , since I have become so convinced that I doubt I could present the other side fairly. For example, I had to edit the line above, because I put "paragon of virtue" instead of "good person" >>> That's mean! No one was accusing Lupin of being a paragon of virtue . Besides, why does being convinced of something hinder your ability to present the other side fairly? Is it because you think you won't pay attention to just arguments against your theory because you are so sure that Lupin is ESE? I'm not even sure where this thread stands right now, but I do have some new ideas and I'd appreciate it if anyone comments on them. Now (heh-heh-heh ), the most weighty argument against Lupin is that he committed perfidy, or whatever we're calling it. Idea #1. Lupin is accused of perfidy because he chose not to disclose certain information about Sirius' abilities and Hogwarts that could basically insure the capture of Sirius Black. OTOH, Crouch Sr. is accused of giving his own son to the dementors. So, Lupin should have turned his former best friend in, and Crouch should not have done the same for his former favourite son? I don't see the logic here. Idea #2. Lupin tells two things to Harry during their conversation in "The Patronus." ---------------------------------------------------------- "They call it the Dementor's Kiss," said Lupin, with a slightly twisted smile. "It's what dementors do to those they wish to destroy utterly. I suppose there must be some kind of mouth under there, because they clamp their jaws upon the mouth of the victim and -- and suck out his soul." ~~~~~~~THING 1~~~~~~~~~~~ Harry accidentally spat out a bit of butterbeer. "What -- they kill --?" "Oh no," said Lupin. "Much worse than that. You can exist without your soul, you know, as long as your brain and heart are still working. But you'll have no sense of self anymore, no memory, no. .. anything. There's no chance at all of recovery. You'll just exist. As an empty shell. And your soul is gone forever... lost." Lupin drank a little more butterbeer, then said, "It's the fate that awaits Sirius Black. " ~~~~~~~~THING 2~~~~~~ -------------------------------------------------------- A little later Lupin says: "Do you really think anyone deserves that?" Forgive me if I'm being presumptuous, but I think the Lupin's own opinion is "No." Firstly, when people phrase their words that way they usually mean 'no,' and secondly, I don't think Lupin, being deprived of his soul once a month, would wish to inflict that upon anyone. True, it's not the same thing, but there are similarities IMO. Argue with me if you will. Then, let me remind you of Lupin's words to Pettigrew: "if Voldemort didn't kill you, we would." I think that part of Lupin's reasons for not telling Dumbledore about the map or the Animagi stuff was because he felt the punishment intended for Sirius was too harsh than what he deserved. He obviously (or not-so-obviously, since it's taken me 2 years to think of this) feels that death must be the punishment for death (or at least in MWPP's case) - if he thought that death wasn't enough, he would have led Pettigrew straight to the Dementors! So, these were the things I wanted to share, and don't mind me if they were brought up before. I'll be very happy if Pippin answers me, too. Best regards, Maria, anxiously waiting for criticism. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From starropal at hotmail.com Fri Jan 24 01:20:55 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:20:55 -0600 Subject: Neville in Herbology (was sig. of Neville) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50457 Kathy wrote: >I say this because in >SS/PS (chapter 13) Neville questions his worthiness to be a >Gryffindor (similar to Harry questioning the Sorting Hat in CoS). >However, I had been wondering the same thing. Gryffindors are >characterized by bravery and courage, hence the Lion. Neville is >neither courageous nor brave. Sure, he stood up to HRH and later >helped Ron by taking on both Crabbe and Goyle, but he still seemed >to me to be cowardly at heart. Upon further reflection, however, I >think there is more to Neville than meets the eye. ... >This is just speculation (or hope), on my part, but I have a >feeling that Neville is going to turn out to be more than a bumbling >idiot in the end. Actually, if you really think of it Neville, in his own way, is VERY courageous and brave. Let's start off with his background. Whether or not he remembers what happened to his parents (as seems to be a bit of debate here) he visits his parents at St. Mungo's during holidays (GoF ch 30). He is raised by his grandmother, who is, no doubt, very protective of him, so he's probably over sheltered. He may have even been treated differently growing up, because of his parents. All of these things, and probably more as we read the following books, make him the way he is. That's a lot of emotional baggage for a 11-14 year old. Standing up to HRH is pretty big actually. He's not just standing up to fellow Gryffindors, he's standing up to people who've been nice to him and helped him out (P/SS ch 13). Not just that, but he's standing up to Harry, thee Harry Potter. While he may not treat Harry like Colin Creevy does, he's still heard all about 'The Boy Who Lived'. McGonagall says, " - every child in our world will know his name!" (P/SS ch 1) And when he fights at the Quidditch match. Yes, Neville hesitated, but once he's in it, he's fighting BOTH Crabbe and Goyle: "- she didn't even notice Malfoy and Ron rolling around under her seat, or the scuffles or yelps coming from the whirl of fists that was Neville, Crabbe, and Goyle." "'...and Neville tried to take on Crabbe and Goyle! He's still out cold but Madame Pomfrey says he'll be all right - talk about showing Slytherin!'"- P/SS ch 13 The second one also implicates that Neville held his own pretty well "talk about showing Slytherin!" Ron shouts. If Neville would have just got knocked out and didn't do any damage to Crabbe and Goyle, I don't think Ron would have been so enthusiastic through the whole thing. He would have said something more like, "I gave Malfoy a black eye, but Neville tried to take on Crabbe and Goyle, he got stomped of course - but at least Malfoy got his!" So Neville got over his hesitation, helped Ron, and did well enough against Draco's gorillas to earn a, "talk about showing Slytherin!" after his part in the fight is mentioned. Also in P/SS Neville leaves Gryffindor after hours to warn Harry and Hermione about Malfoy. This is after the first time he went out with the trio where he had to run from Filch, Mrs. Norris, Peeves, and, of course, Fluffy. Not to mention he knew that he could have been caught. Can you imagine what it took for Neville to do that? Only to end up thinking he did it for nothing, and getting detention, and get another 50 points taken from Gryffindor, AND consequently be shunned. Speaking of his detention, while Neville "panics" when Malfoy scares him, at least he had the presence of mind to remember to send up sparks. When Harry and Draco run into Quirrellmort, Draco screams and runs off and Harry is petrified with fear. Mind you its understandable and I'm not trashing Draco or Harry, but still Neville remembered (Hey, he remembered something!) to send up the signal. This is just the first book and already we see Neville growing. He goes from complete push over, to deciding to help out in a fight, to standing up to three people (going back to my first mention) and earning 10 points for his house. By the time we get to GoF he's grown enough to have the courage to ask Hermione to go to the Yule Ball with him. Then after he's turned down he still asks Ginny. He wasn't a champion and he was a forth year, he could go without a date, if he was too afraid of rejection he didn't have to try again, but he did. (ch 22) Also in GoF in DADA _he's_ the one that brings up Cruciatus Curses. At least _I_ think that show mental bravery. After class he's disturbed, BUT he doesn't cry.(ch 14) In P/SS Neville cries or looks like he is going to. I think these events show that he is growing, its just not very noticeable because he's in the background most of the time. Think on this: For four years Harry and Neville have been going to school together, and only by looking into the Pensieve does Harry find out about the Longbottoms. Neville must be very strong to keep all this stuff about his parents inside. He also never seeks pity or excuses his short comings with his situation. You know I've always wondered if this is one of the reasons Neville is friendly towards Harry. Really they aren't that different, parent wise, both lost their parents to DEs (one physically, one mentally). Neville, unlike Harry, knows both stories. Perhaps that could be another reason he gets so upset at Draco during the Quidditch match in P/SS: "'It's people they feel sorry for. See, there's Potter, who's got no parents, then there's the Weasleys, who've got no money - you should be on the team, Longbottom, you've got no brains.' Neville went bright red but turned in his seat to face Malfoy. 'I'm worth twelve of you, Malfoy,' he stammered." - P/SS ch 13 Its hard to say for sure since Draco says it all together, but I think its worth considering. So that's why I'm particularly amazed by Neville when Harry ditches him to go to Hogsmeade (PoA ch 14). He never brings it up to Harry. Never says anything to Harry, we don't even see him again till ch 16 IIRC. Could be he's just not confrontational, but he could have been angry at Harry and blown up with something like, 'Well at least you don't have to see your parents in a sanitarium!' It would be terribly un-Neville, I admit. As far as magical ability goes, Herbology we know he's good at (as has been said by others), and while I never thought of it before I came here, there is that mysterious thing about melting cauldrons. Hmm. Yes Neville doesn't really excel in his subjects, except for Herbology. Yes he's clumsy, accident prone, and quiet. But he's stronger and braver then most give him credit for IMHO. I didn't mean this as some sort of attack, but I guess I felt he needed defending. I too hope he gets a bigger part, but I have this ugly feeling he's going to die at the end of 5 or during 6. Star Opal who refers to the US paperback and isn't so sure Trevor the toad is all he seems From Heleen at ptdprolog.net Fri Jan 24 01:48:24 2003 From: Heleen at ptdprolog.net (Heleen Greenwald) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 20:48:24 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Uncle Vernon a Wizard? References: Message-ID: <009301c2c34a$afc4c620$a500a8c0@boghouse> No: HPFGUIDX 50458 ----- Original Message ----- From: Shunique To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 5:05 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Uncle Vernon a Wizard? Dumbledore may tell Harry that Uncle Vernon is a wizard who decided to live as a Muggle. " My" Smelting stick theory says that uncle Vernon carried that stick around as a wand. I would also say that you could look at Hagrids entrance in PS and say that a wand could be placed just about everywhere and anywhere. For example, one could hide a wand in an umbrella. That can be found in PS U.S. version pg 83. (Hagrid talking to Mr. Ollivander). Also in PS pg 32 U.S. it says: "As he looked at Dudley in his new knickerbockers, Uncle Vernon said gruffly that it was the proudest moment in his life." This is exactly how Petunia describes her parents' enthusiasm as Lily received her letter from Hogwarts. If Dudley turns out to be a wizard I bet he will either be the saving or the downfall of Harry in the end of the Series. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Interesting Smelting stick theory. What if Uncle Vernon is from a wizard family but has no wizard powers himself? What does that make him? A squib?? (confused on terminology) He always wants to succeed and be the best. If he can't be the best at wizardry, then that would make sense for him to put it down totally.. As in.... If he can't do it.then.... "There are no wizards!" My 2 cents... Phillipa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amani at charter.net Fri Jan 24 02:45:35 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 21:45:35 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron in Cos (was Ron and the Trouble with Veela) References: <20030124023019.89031.qmail@web20001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <019701c2c352$abd20e80$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50459 golden faile: I was wondering, where in COS do we see evidence of Ron having an interest in Hermione? Robert: I always felt that Rons taking up for Hermione when Malfoy called her a Mudblood in CoS was indicative of his true feelings for her. Laila: Could be... but let me ask you this. If someone insults one of your best friends wouldn't you come to their rescue? Rebecca: But this wasn't just one incident. When Hermione was petrified and Malfoy made the comment about wishing she'd been killed and the bet the next one would be (pg 267 paperback US ed) he said he was going to kill Draco with his bare hands. And, although Harry is probably upset, the text gives no indication of that. And Ron kept trying to get loose from Harry and Dean for a while. Harry didn't come to the rescue of one of his best friends. Actually, I take that back; he came to the rescue of Ron. Who knows what Snape would've done to him. But Ron's action wasn't in defense of anyone. It couldn't help Hermione. It was just an emotional reaction. Taryn: Because Ron is extremely tempermental, whereas Harry is /not/. Ron has to be held back MULTIPLE times. But Harry is one who has lived a lifetime of bottling up emotions and holding his temper. We don't see it break nearly so much as Ron's. Rebecca: Actually, the first quote attributed to me is not mine. Me: Terribly sorry about that! The name seemed to have gotten lost in the posts. Had to go search back and find the original author. Fixed it now. Secondly, there was no indication that Harry was upset. He may have been. But usually we know what's going on in his head, and here we didn't. Me: Are you honestly going to try and say Harry wasn't upset by Draco, his arch-enemy, saying it was a pity one of his two /best friends/ hadn't died? Rebecca: Personally, I think it's R/H all the way. I think many of their actions can interpreted as friendship, but that upon reading GoF that's thrown out the window. Me: I never said I don't. ^_~ I'm a supporter of R/Hr. However, I don't see the support for it before GoF like others do. I'm more Alone!Harry than anything else, but R/Hr is second to that. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lupinesque at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 02:48:41 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 02:48:41 -0000 Subject: Lupin re: Real characters & persuasive argument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50460 Pippin wrote: > For > my part, ESE Lupin is not an attempt to flatten him...rather the > reverse. I was unsatisfied with the characterization and > development of Lupin in several respects. I agree with you. Your arguments are thoughtful and nuanced and have added a great deal to my sense of this character, much more than any number of "isn't Lupin FANTASTIC" posts could have done. Now, I am not exactly calm and balanced when it comes to Lupin--it is patently obvious that I identify with him to a pathological extent-- so I usually bite my tongue and don't try to respond to your posts. I nod in fervent admiration, though. And you know, you *do* account for counterarguments as you go. You don't *have* to, but I like it best when you do because I'm not of the sort that finds the "Resolved:" approach very convincing, whether the resolution is "Lupin is ESE" or "Lupin is a hero." Please note that I'm not saying there is anything *wrong* with someone taking that form of argument. It isn't unfair or dodgy. It just doesn't work very well on me. BTW, I have a counterargument to this : > When Trelawney's voice goes from misty to crisp, we > understand that the mistiness is an act. What are we to make of > it that Lupin's voice alters suddenly from calm to steely, a steely > voice that Harry has never heard from him before? But I'd better leave it to someone a bit more detached to give it, since I too begin spouting things like "paragon of virtue" when attempting to write about Lupin. Maybe tomorrow I'll be calmer and I can give it a whirl. > Those were all things that bothered me before I came up with > the ESE theory. I admit I presented it rather gleefully, and in a > one sided way, but the glee came from solving one of Rowling's > mysteries in advance (I think!), not "trashing" the character. Amy hoping Lupin dies in 5 rather than being dishonored by proving to be ESE <--tongue in cheek comment, not to be taken seriously. Seriously. From lupinesque at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 02:55:59 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 02:55:59 -0000 Subject: P.S. Re: Lupin re: Real characters & persuasive argument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50461 I wrote re: Pippin's Lupin is ESE theory: > Your arguments are thoughtful and nuanced and have > added a great deal to my sense of this character, much more than any > number of "isn't Lupin FANTASTIC" posts could have done. Whoops, meant to add this: So I retract the Lupin sentence from my post 50182, since if you don't meet the criteria, I don't imagine anyone does. Amy hoping she won't be asked to marshal examples for all the other characters. From skelkins at attbi.com Fri Jan 24 03:03:01 2003 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 03:03:01 -0000 Subject: Polemic, "cannibalism," and Common Wisdom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50462 Amy: > I don't believe I ever said that Eileen did *nothing* but > flatten the nuances of Ron and Harry. But I did think she > flattened them, and that was the bit I was interested in. > If it isn't the bit Eileen is interested in, or you are > interested in, or anyone else is interested in, please skip > my post. I won't be offended. Yes, okay. Fair enough, and I'm sorry if I misunderstood your intent. I hadn't understood that you were attempting to pick up on one aspect of the discussion and focus solely on that aspect. From where I was sitting, I guess that it looked more like a "shaddup" then like a "let's talk about this other thing for a while," probably because last August's Twins thread has left me unduly sensitive to "shaddups." I'm sorry that I mischaracterized your intent. But as to the actual topic that you wanted to discuss: > Why then is cannibalism on the rise, if indeed it is? If it is on the rise, then my guess is that it is because the purpose of a strongly-stated polemic attack on a character or position is to provoke the reader into questioning long-cherished assumptions about specific aspects of the text. "Long-cherished" is the relevant term here. It takes a while for the "common wisdom" about characters within a fandom to be established in the first place. Absent that sort of consensus, there is little incentive for anyone to write a polemic, because there is no weight of "common wisdom" against which one is aware of having to push. Pippin, for example, writes about Remus Lupin in such harsh terms in part, I imagine, because she is aware that there is already a long-standing consensus within the fandom about this character, one which stands in opposition to her own reading. What the HELL: Hey, Everybody Loves Lupin. Right? Well, Pippin doesn't. But she knows full well that just about everyone else does, and so she recognizes that if she wants people to grant a hearing to her argument, then she is going to have to make a really *strong* case for it. Otherwise, nobody will pay her any attention at all. Similarly, back in August, I was asked why I was being so unfair as to point out the Twins' bullying characteristics, while "letting Draco off the hook." Well, how interesting would it be to talk about Draco's bullying characteristics? We all know about them already, don't we? It is established common wisdom within the community that Draco Is A Bully. The Twins' bullying characteristics, on the other hand, are *not* widely discussed in the fandom. Any post which aims to point them out must therefore take a strong tone, while the fact that Draco is a bully can safely be referred to in passing. Are we likely to see less polemic in the immediate wake of OoP's release? Yes, possibly, because it will take a while for the consensus over the "accepted reading" of newly introduced characters and plotlines to be established, and absent that consensus, there is far less social need for polemic. On the other hand, possibly not. After all, how did the fandom's "common wisdoms" get formed in the first place? Well, from what I've seen in the archives of this list, many of them came about because people finished GoF and immediately began to state their feelings about the book's characters and events -- and to state them in no uncertain terms. Elkins From lupinesque at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 03:14:51 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 03:14:51 -0000 Subject: Polemic, "cannibalism," and Common Wisdom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50463 Elkins wrote: > Yes, okay. Fair enough, and I'm sorry if I misunderstood your > intent. I hadn't understood that you were attempting to > pick up on one aspect of the discussion and focus solely > on that aspect. From where I was sitting, I guess that > it looked more like a "shaddup" then like a "let's talk > about this other thing for a while," probably because last > August's Twins thread has left me unduly sensitive to > "shaddups." I'm sorry that I mischaracterized your intent. Thank you. > But as to the actual topic that you wanted to discuss: And thank you for getting to this, which is starting to interest me more and more! (Me:) > > Why then is cannibalism on the rise, if indeed it is? Elkins: > If it is on the rise, then my guess is that it is because > the purpose of a strongly-stated polemic attack on a > character or position is to provoke the reader into > questioning long-cherished assumptions about specific > aspects of the text. > > "Long-cherished" is the relevant term here. It takes > a while for the "common wisdom" about characters within > a fandom to be established in the first place. Absent > that sort of consensus, there is little incentive for > anyone to write a polemic, because there is no weight > of "common wisdom" against which one is aware of having > to push. > > Pippin, for example, writes about Remus Lupin in such > harsh terms in part, I imagine, because she is aware > that there is already a long-standing consensus within > the fandom about this character, one which stands in > opposition to her own reading. What the HELL: Hey, > Everybody Loves Lupin. Right? Right! You may or may not remember that I invented that acronym, and even though I do love Lupin, in inventing it I was deliberately poking fun at his easy lovability. It's much more interesting to talk about Lupin with Pippin's argument in the mix. I think you have put your finger on the reason behind *some* of the character-bashing. Not all of the posts are so interesting as your Twins-as-bullies posts or Pippin's Lupin posts. I like the ones that do question the common wisdom, always with the caveat that they can't just be contrary ("Dudley is a kind, thoughtful and sensitive boy!") and ought to make some kind of case for themselves, in whatever interpretive framework. Amy Z From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 03:27:00 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 03:27:00 -0000 Subject: Harry's Fan; Dumbledore, Snape and Fudge In-Reply-To: <64.2b8e50a9.2b6159e4@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50464 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, eloiseherisson at a... wrote: > blauemeanies: > > >Actually, Fudge does not have the power to do that. The enigmatic > >Board of Governors are the only people who can do that, and when > >Fudge tried to stop Lucius and the board from sacking Dumbledore > >in CoS, he was told quite directly that there was nothing he could > >do to >stop the governors. > >- - - - - - - - - > eloise: > > ...edited... > > The Board of Governors is, as you say, enigmatic. Who appoints > them? The MoM seems to regulate every aspect of wizarding life; I > find it hard to believe that they do not appoint the Hogwarts > Governors. I also find it hard to believe that Malfoy would not > do his utmost to exploit his position to the point where he > assumed an autonomy which was not originally intentioned. > > ~Eloise bboy_mn: Who appoints the Board of Governors? This is my theory; and I do have a lot of them. We don't know where Hogwarts gets it's money. There has been no indication that there is tuition to Hogwarts. So what are possible sources of money? A grant from the Founding Fathers and Mothers which has been carefully managed over the course of 1,000 years and has compounded into a tidy sum. Next donations from Alumni, Philanthropist, businesses, and other benefactors. (and possibly taxes) So... the question still is, who appoints the Governors? The govenors are comprised off the 12 people who have made the largest donations to the school and of course, who are also interested in the job. Big donors may not want to bothered with being on the Board. If substantial sums have been donated either in a lump or over time, it is possible the son (more than likely) or the daughter of a benefactor may inherit the seat on the Board. Old rich families may rule the board for years. The Head of the Board is probably the oldest and largest benefactor. We know from GoF that Malfoy got his top box seats because of a large donation to the hospital, so it seems reasonable that Malfoy has donated to the school. I suspect for no reason other than to gain a seat on the board, and keep the school in his debt. Of course, all this money is pooled with the Founder's money managed and invested wisely, and as much as possible, the school tries to meet expense out of the interest paid. Only touching the principle when absolutely necessary. So, I killed two birds with one stone; where Hogwarts gets it's money, and how the Board members are appointed. As far as Fudge, even if he doesn't have direct authority over the school, his position as Minister gives him a great deal of weight should he ever petition the Governors over an issue like Dumbledore's competency. Also, the Governor's are really on the outside of the school. They probably get more information about how the school is run from Rita Skeeter than they do from Dumbledore or the staff. I'm sure you see the problem in that. After the article that Harry is unstable, and now his claim that Voldemort is back, plus Dumbledore backing Harry up in these claims, it might be relatively easy for Fudge to convince the Board that the school is completely out of control. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From theo_kestrel at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 03:29:01 2003 From: theo_kestrel at yahoo.com (theo_kestrel ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 03:29:01 -0000 Subject: Ron in Cos (was Ron and the Trouble with Veela) In-Reply-To: <20030123212712.66711.qmail@web41101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50465 Me: > > As a fan of the H/Hr pairing, my objectivity may be non-existent, but > > I rather agree with other readers (I think on the infamous DeathMarch > > thread on FictionAlley Park) who note that Ron's defense of Hermione > > and his abortive attack on Malfoy in CoS is consistent with his > > behavior when Malfoy insults his sister, insults his mother, insults > > his family in general, or insults Harry-sorry, I don't have specific > > examples to show off-hand(darn books are still packed away); the only > > difference this time is that his wand is broken, thus the slugs-it's > > not as if Ron CHOSE to cough up slugs for Hermione's honor. It's more > > like Ron hears insult-Ron reacts, whether it's the fight in the > > Quidditch stands, the slug incident, or any other occasion when Ron's > > temper is set off. Now, if I were a R/Hr shipper, I wouldn't be so > > quick to bring up this incident as "proof" of Ron's feelings for > > Hermione at age...12? His familial relations must be quite odd if > > it's so ;). > > > Robert: > Really now! I remember having a crush on someone when I was 12 and I had > quite normal familial relations thank you! > Laila: > > I agree! I remeber being quite young with my first crush! I think it was the first grade. He was the smartest boy in class. > > Robert: > Yes, Ron hates Malfoy and takes every excuse to try and beat him up. And yes > who wouldn't jump to the defense of their best friend, but to me there > seemed to be a particular ferocity in this instance. It was also the first > time Ron attempted to use magic to attack malfoy. Something he know's he's > not good at and know's he has a broken wand to boot. > But really I think Ron had a thing for Hermione from the start even in SS. > > Laila: >Although, I tend to think that it was just the ferocity of the insult that caused Ron to react this way. Malfoy was being particularly vicious with that one. I mean the word in question is just as bad as any racial slur we've ever heard. Me: Sorry about the confusion. No, I wasn't implying that it's unnatural to have a crush at age 12-many people have them and it's quite normal. What I was attempting to get across is that to "crush on" someone for that long seems a little beyond the scope of "normal"-not unheard of, but not the norm either(Three years in the life of a 15 year old is an eternity). And the other part was my apparently failed attempt at humor-i.e. he reacts similarly to ANY insult about his family, so if he's got "those" feelings for Hermione, then... Eh, so my humor stinks. theo_kestrel From fausts at attglobal.net Fri Jan 24 03:57:45 2003 From: fausts at attglobal.net (anguaorc ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 03:57:45 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ron and Hermione do TOO banter! - Reply to Ebony In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50466 Angua wrote: > > One thing that is clear, though: there are very few "missed > > opportunities" with R/H. Ebony wrote: > None of the opportunities you cite below can be construed as > specifically R/H. Angua again: Of course they *can* be construed that way! I think what you mean to say is that none of them *must* be construed that way. I wasn't arguing that they must. I was saying that -- in the event that the books do end up R/H -- we won't be able to look back and find a lot of places that JKR *failed* to foreshadow it. In almost every possible place where an R/H foreshadowing might exist, one does exist, though most of them are very faint and subtle indeed, and almost all of them have a possible alternate explanation. What I am doing here is looking at authorial intent. If JKR, as I believe, has planned R/H all along, we ought to see some sly authorial references to it throughout the four books. Which, indeed, we find. Angua: > > Ron has a crush on Fleur -- we look to see if Hermione betrays > > jealousy, and -- sure enough -- there are signs that can easily be > > read that way. Ebony: > Here we go with that semi-colon stuff again. And you know our take > on it... Fleur kissed Harry too, so we just don't know. Of course. I wasn't offering "proof" here. However, one huge H/H opportunity was missed. In each case, Fleur shows interest in Harry, then in Ron, and *then* Hermione scowls or looks furious. If only JKR had shown Hermione scowling and looking furious after Harry and before Ron, we would have known it was for Harry. But she writes them like this: ***** Fleur swooped down on him too and kissed him. Hermione looked simply furious. ***** and ***** Fleur smiled at him; Hermione scowled. ***** The way she puts the Ron/Fleur interaction and the Hermione reaction in such pointedly close proximity leaves us with only two possible interpretations. Either JKR is trying to tell that Hermione scowls because of Ron, or JKR is trying to *fool us into thinking* that Hermione scowls because of Ron. It is either a clue, or a trick. I, of course, being a simple-minded R/Her, think it is a clue. Angua: > > Ron goes to the Yule Ball with Padma -- does Hermione have a > problem > with that? Well, we don't see anything at first, but then > there is > the incident when Ron is bragging to Padma (who is > suddenly a lot > more interested in him) after the Second Task, and > Hermione rudely > shuts him up. > > Ebony: > How is this R/H? I think if anything, it is Ron likes Hermione, > which is something that the sane members of our side conceded in July > 2000. Because if you get to mark that passage as Ron/Hermione, I get > to mark the Honeydukes in December of PoA as H/H, because Harry shuts > up Hermione's page and a half of arguments about why he shouldn't be > at Hogsmeade with a single question and grin. As I doubt that the > R/H ship would accept any such reading, then a ship-specific > interpretation upon such vaguely dubious grounds cannot be used in > serious debate. Angua again: I am afraid you have misunderstood me. I was asking myself if there is any indication that Hermione considers Padma as a rival, or is displeased by the idea of her paying attention to Ron. I found that yes, indeed, there is such an indication, though, as for many other of my examples, it is both subtle and ambiguous. But JKR didn't put that bit about "Padma was paying a lot more attention to Ron now" in there for no reason. And about the time when Harry shuts Hermione up with a single question and a grin -- forgive me, but I was under the impression that that is already one of your prime bits of H/H "evidence." Angua: > > Ron makes insensitive remarks about dating pretty girls -- does > > Hermione mind? Yes, very much. Ebony: > Evidence, please? I just don't see this in canon. Angua again: I am referring to the much-discussed trolls, etc. conversations. Angua: > > When he went into the Veela > > trance -- "Honestly" both times, with tutting and arm pulling. Ebony: > What Veela trance? Quote, please. I distinctly remember Hermione > pulling Harry's arm, but I admit freely that I am an incorrigible > shipper and have a very selective memory. Angua again: It appears you are remembering Ron's first Veela trance, and not his second one (GoF Ch. 9): ***** "*Honestly!*" said Hermione, and she and Harry grabbed Ron firmly by the arms..." ***** Please remember that I am NOT offering this as proof that Hermione LURVES Ron. What I am saying is that every time that Ron shows interest in the Veelas, without fail, irritation from Hermione is also shown. I realize that this happens to be true of Harry, too, when it comes to Veelas. However, it is not true of Harry slopping water on himself because of Cho, for instance, or Harry being kissed by Angelina, Katie, and Alicia, or Harry dancing with Parvati. My only thesis here is: opportunities to foreshadow H/H are mostly missed and very rarely fulfilled, while opportunities to foreshadow R/H are mostly fulfilled and very rarely missed. There *are* a couple of opportunities where R/H *could* have been foreshadowed and isn't, but, as a faithful R/H debater, I don't propose to point them out to you. :) Angua: > > When he was in danger from the Second Task -- "I was so busy seeing > > if you and Harry were okay..." Ebony: > That is Hermione's later memory of the event when she and Ron are > discussing the Skeeter article, an event that we fortunately saw > played out on the page in detail. (Everyone else, please look at my > essay. I gave you the full quote for a reason--one absolutely cannot > examine isolated instances in the text without considering their > textuality. This is why religious sects have been founded on > isolated verses of Scripture!) Angua again: I am not proposing to found a religious sect here -- I am simply pointing out another opportunity which was NOT missed. I am aware that it was, in this case, not missed for Harry either. Angua: > > When Harry asked her if she wouldn't rather go to Hogsmeade with > Ron - > > - she blushed. Ebony: > Are you sure she's blushing because she's being asked about Ron, or > because Harry's implying that she's showing a difference between the > two friends by spending a great deal of her time (that we see *in the > text* with Harry? ;-) Angua again: No, I believe that she blushed because Harry caught her in subterfuge. I'm just saying -- when R/H happens and we look back for foreshadowing, we will see that JKR didn't miss a beat. She put it EVERYWHERE. Even when it's just a sly reference, and doesn't really mean anything. Ebony: > And all this was addressed in my original essay. Getting very > circular now, isn't it? Angua: Umm, no. I was making a *different* point, not really related to your essay. My point is an outgrowth of MY observation that many, many chances are missed where JKR *could* have foreshadowed H/H. Naturally, this led me look to see if the same thing was true of R/H. I discovered that it *wasn't*, and was eager to share my findings with you lovely people. I consider it useful evidence of author intention. You may consider it worthless nonsense, and I presume you do. To each her own. Ebony: > On to the example of on-page banter: > > > "And you could ask your parents if they know who Flamel is," said > > Ron. "It'd be safe to ask them." > > > > "Very safe, as they're both dentists," said Hermione. > > That's an R/H moment? *laughs* First of all, they're eleven. No, I wasn't citing it as an R/H moment. I was citing it as a bantering moment, specifically to counter Laura Ingalls Huntley's claim in #50332 that: ****** Banter? *Banter*?! Calling what Hermione and Ron do "banter" is an insult to a very fine art. They bicker. They out-and-out fight. They insult one another. They do not banter. To banter is to tease. To make witty semi-clawed comments. To engage in playful mock-sparring. They do nothing of the sort. Occasionally Ron will say something mean-but-humorous that is meant to rile her (which can be a lead-in to banter), but I cannot recall Hermione reacting with anything but irritation or anger (again, not bantering) -- she does not play back. Mostly, however, he's just being cluelessly insensitive. ****** My examples were meant to show -1- that Hermione and Ron are NOT "an insult to a very fine art" and -2- that Hermione DOES "play back." Ebony: > If that's what you call banter, I can find H/H banter in that book as > well. ("I could sing!" "Don't." She laughs.) Yes, that's the only example I've found, too. ;) Ebony: > I'll concede your GoF quotes as banter of a sort--witty repartee. > However, I do not believe they are indicative of romantic interest on > Hermione's part, and for most of the book, not necessarily on Ron's > either. I was not claiming them as indicative of romantic interest. I was claiming that they're funny. If witty bantering by itself was a proof of romantic interest, we would all be Fred/George shippers, because they do it far better than anyone else. I do think, however, that the fact that JKR has set Ron and Hermione up as a sort of comedy duo means something in terms of her intentions toward their future pairing. It is just one of many, many hints that we have. Angua, now waaaaaay behind From fausts at attglobal.net Fri Jan 24 04:08:28 2003 From: fausts at attglobal.net (anguaorc ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 04:08:28 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ron and Hermione do TOO banter! - Brian & Penny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50467 Tying up some loose ends: Brian Yoon: > The some of the quotes (the last one in particular) doesn't seem to have any > sort of humor in it at all. Me: Humor is a pretty subjective thing, isn't it? All the quotes I cited made *me* laugh, or at least grin. Penny: > I agree with Ebony -- if this is the standard for "bantering," then > we'll be happy to provide several examples of Harry and Hermione > interaction that would qualify. Me: Ooooh, please DO! There's nothing I like better than reading bantering, even if you think it's not "real" bantering. The thing is -- that one about "I could dance." "Don't." is the only Harry/Hermione one that I've ever found. Angua From StarHermione86 at cs.com Fri Jan 24 04:15:03 2003 From: StarHermione86 at cs.com (StarHermione86 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:15:03 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ship based on her parents? Message-ID: <147.8889f40.2b6217c7@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50468 Does anybody know the details of J.K.'s parents marriage?!? From what I've read and the little bit I can remember from her biography she really seems to have admired her parents relationship, and any ships in the book may result from her ideal view of her parents. Sheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pennylin at swbell.net Fri Jan 24 04:15:06 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 22:15:06 -0600 Subject: Banter and other SHIP subjects (was TBAY/SHIP: Avast Maties! or: on the S.S. pumpkin pie) References: Message-ID: <00ca01c2c35f$2d50e1a0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 50469 Hi all -- Derannimer, who has just been promoted to First Mate, Special Class on the S.S. Pumpkin Pie (Penny tosses gold bars down to Captain Cindy's destroyer, where they land with a clunk at Derannimer's feet ........ Penny scurries rapidly away from the railing as she registers the look of complete annoyance on Captain Cindy's face), said: <<<>>>>>> And later, after a brilliant take on what bantering is and is not: <<<<>>>>>>>> I couldn't agree more. I think the descriptive language that JKR so often uses when describing the Ron and Hermione interactions *is* telling. Sometimes I read their interaction as "sniping" and "bickering," which I personally find irritating, but I can concede that some people derive enjoyment out of it. But, quite alot of R/Hr interaction is depicted in a negative way by JKR, through her word choice. "Irritably," "snapped," "resentfully," "angrily," "waspishly," "coldly," sputtered in indignation," just to name a few. I also like the pattern that Derannimer picked up on. I think you're right that Hermione says something serious to Ron or Ron and Harry or to someone else, and Ron responds with a smart-ass comment. I too think Ron is funny (sometimes, but not always). But, he and Hermione are definitely *not* engaging in banter or verbal courtship of any kind, IMO. I said: >>The shipping ambiguities will always be somewhat ambiguous. It's not as though the characters can be shown to be in love since PS/SS .... they will change as they mature. I also don't buy the notion that the ships have been "destined" since PS/SS (Ginny as the first girl Harry sees and Hermione's interaction with Ron over the smudged nose). << Pippin responded: <<<>>>>>>> Well, you know, if the shipping is just a minor, humorous subplot .... in the background, nothing too gritty ...... then maybe she hadn't (and hasn't!) yet fully worked it out. If, OTOH, it's more integral to the overall plot for some reason, then, yes, I'd expect she had it more or less plotted out at the time PS/SS was written. <<<>>>>>> Pippin, that analysis only works if you buy R/H and/or H/G, which I do not. Your read of PS/SS would comport with a R/H & H/G ending. Mine would not. But, I do seriously doubt that she *intended* to convey a destiny for those two couples in PS, even if that is how it will turn out. The reasons are myriad, but not the least of which might be that I truly don't think she's going to send a message that two sets of teenagers can essentially be set up for life at age 17/18, with the foundation for their destiny laid out at age 11 (or 10 in the case of Ginny). The simple reality of contemporary life is that teenage romances transitioning into successful healthy marriages is rare and becoming even more rare with every passing year. The divorce statistics in the UK are particularly alarming from what I understand. <<<<>>>>>> I don't *see* any attraction there. None. They *hate* each other (Ron and Hermione that is). Harry is very embarrassed by Ginny's display of hero-worship. Shifting to Angua on JKR's personal life: <<<<>>>>>> Source please? On the "sparks" and "arguments"? The Smith biography of JKR gives completely the opposite impression is the reason I ask. The Rowlings seemed to be the quiet, retiring, bookish types, according to the myriad accounts of their lives that Smith researched. Peter Rowling was described as a "quiet chap who took things seriously." <<<<2 - Her friendship with Sean Harris, Ron's inadvertent model, which I have never heard had either "sparks" or arguments, and which she still treasures today.>>>>>>>> I don't it was inadvertent; I think she intentionally based Ron, *in part,* on her friend Sean. <<<<5 - Her current marriage, about which I personally know nothing at all.>>>>>>>> Yep, me either. The only thing I know is that Neil Murray bears a rather striking resemblance to what an adult Harry Potter might look like. [And, no, I'm by *no* means the only one to comment on that one...... half the journalists in Britain said as much apparently] On possible reasons why JKR might have chosen to not answer the question about Hermoine liking Ron with a more straight-forward answer, Angua conjectured: <<<<1 - She might have thought the questioner had not yet read GoF (since she didn't know the obvious) or that some of the chat participants hadn't, and didn't want to spoil it.>>>>>> Since this chat was sometime in 2001, isn't that a bit unlikely really? <<<>>>>> You might want to review some of the pre-GoF chats. We were all fairly certain from those chats that Harry would actually date Cho Chang ..... and well, we all know how that turned out. Back to all this blushing, Angua said: <<<>>>>> At a distance. :--) Whatever. Fact is, we don't *know* if Hermione did or did not blush when Krum asked her to visit him in Bulgaria. I think you're reaching a bit on this one. On the blushing when Harry asks her if she didn't want to go to Hogsmeade with Ron, Angua concedes, partially: <<<>>>>>>>> If she's blushing because Harry is caught her up in subterfuge, as you concede (thanks!), then there is NO R/H foreshadowing. Her blush (and her intent) have nothing whatsoever to do with romantic interest in Ron. You conceded as much. <<<<>>>>>>> A comedy duo, eh? You might want to take a close look at Derannimer's post on the bantering. I agree with her. It's not banter or verbal foreplay and certainly not setting them up as a comic duo. Not IMO anyway. Penny (who'll provide some H/H interaction examples at a later time ....... I promise it to show Harry and Hermione interacting positively and having fun together and perhaps even bantering a bit, though bantering is really not their style and that's *okay* .....not every successful couple needs to be skilled in the fine art of bantering after all (and Ron and Hermione certainly aren't)) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From snorth at ucla.edu Fri Jan 24 04:41:33 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 20:41:33 -0800 Subject: Fleur's Scowls (was: SHIP: Ron and Hermione do TOO banter! - Reply to Ebony) References: Message-ID: <002701c2c362$df3132f0$d3447442@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 50470 Angua: > Of course. I wasn't offering "proof" here. However, one huge H/H > opportunity was missed. In each case, Fleur shows interest in Harry, > then in Ron, and *then* Hermione scowls or looks furious. If only > JKR had shown Hermione scowling and looking furious after Harry and > before Ron, we would have known it was for Harry. But she writes > them like this: > > ***** > Fleur swooped down on him too and kissed him. Hermione looked simply > furious. > ***** > > and > > ***** > Fleur smiled at him; Hermione scowled. > ***** > > The way she puts the Ron/Fleur interaction and the Hermione reaction > in such pointedly close proximity leaves us with only two possible > interpretations. Either JKR is trying to tell that Hermione scowls > because of Ron, or JKR is trying to *fool us into thinking* that > Hermione scowls because of Ron. It is either a clue, or a trick. I, > of course, being a simple-minded R/Her, think it is a clue. Oh, God forgive me, I'm about to comment on interpretation of SHIP related evidence. Well, I'm sure someone has said this before- 2 years of debate seems to guarantee that virtually all bases have been covered. Whether this interpretation has been covered recently, I'm not sure. I find SHIP debates entertaining, but I can only stare at text for so long, so this may have come up recently. Here's the thing about Hermione's reaction to Fleur/Ron interactions (I'm trying to convince myself here, so stick with me): I think her scowls could be interpreted as simple annoyance with Ron's susceptibility to Fleur's charms. Why doesn't she scowl when Fleur kisses Harry? Perhaps it's simply because she understands that Harry isn't enamored with Fleur; he's not angling for a any sort of affection from Fleur. Some of the quote is above; I wish I had my books so I could quote the whole passage, my argument is better supported when the quote is in context. Anyway, I think it goes something like this: Fleur kisses Harry for rescuing her sister. Fleur: And you, you helped too. *looking at Ron* Ron: Er.. *thinks about it* Yeah, I did! Fleur kisses Ron. Harry has legitimately earned Fleur's admiration through his actions. Ron has not (not really anyway), but still takes credit for helping Harry, which leads to getting a kiss and smile (after the second task, and at the train station, respectively). Now, I seem to recall that Hermione tends to scowl/frown at both boys when either of them are being dishonest. (we know what she thinks about them making up their predictions for Divination homework). I'm still not sure I believe any of that; I am admittedly something of a H/Her, yet Hermione being jealous does seem like the most likely answer, and is definitely the simplest answer. Oh well. -Scott (who apologizes for his hypocrisy) PS This is so off-topic it's laughable, but has anyone ever wondered why a part of the human brain (The Hippocampus- it helps us with the development of long term memory) is named after a half-horse, half-fish monster? From urbana at charter.net Fri Jan 24 04:42:41 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 04:42:41 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ron and Hermione do TOO banter! (or do they?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50471 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "anguaorc " wrote: > I do think, however, that the fact that JKR has set Ron and Hermione > up as a sort of comedy duo means something in terms of her intentions > toward their future pairing. It is just one of many, many hints that > we have. What you see as comedic hints of a future relationship, others (including me) see as a couple of kids whose main way of "relating" is through bickering. I thought Derannimer's explanation of the difference between bantering and bickering was spot-on, as was her point-by-point refutation of the "instances of bantering" ("Genius!! BRRRRILLLLLIANT!", she yells, high-fiving Derannimer). While I consider myself a pretty fair banterer (I especially enjoy bantering with friends in one particular chat room I frequent), I truly do *not* enjoy bickering and don't like to be around it, so maybe that's why, even though I laugh at Ron and Hermione's interactions, they often make me cringe a bit too, and I honestly don't see Hermione enjoying them that much either. (But of course, that could just be my own reading.) Long story short...to me it's far from clear that JKR is setting up Ron and Hermione for a significant relationship, but if they really do end up together, I'd bet dollars to doughnuts they end up as the WW's answer to American Muggles' favorite radio couple -- The Bickersons... Anne U (PS to Derannimer - Welcome aboard, and congratulations on your new job: *Gunnery Mate*:-) From golden_faile at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 04:53:02 2003 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 20:53:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron in Cos (was Ron and the Trouble with Veela) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030124045302.28444.qmail@web41110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50472 "theo_kestrel " wrote: Sorry about the confusion. No, I wasn't implying that it's unnatural to have a crush at age 12-many people have them and it's quite normal. What I was attempting to get across is that to "crush on" someone for that long seems a little beyond the scope of "normal"-not unheard of, but not the norm either(Three years in the life of a 15 year old is an eternity). And the other part was my apparently failed attempt at humor-i.e. he reacts similarly to ANY insult about his family, so if he's got "those" feelings for Hermione, then... Eh, so my humor stinks. Laila: Quite alright. I have days like that too ;). Laila Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From golden_faile at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 05:03:16 2003 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 21:03:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron in Cos (was Ron and the Trouble with Veela) In-Reply-To: <019701c2c352$abd20e80$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: <20030124050316.60459.qmail@web41109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50473 Taryn Kimel wrote: golden faile: I was wondering, where in COS do we see evidence of Ron having an interest in Hermione? Robert: I always felt that Rons taking up for Hermione when Malfoy called her a Mudblood in CoS was indicative of his true feelings for her. Laila: Could be... but let me ask you this. If someone insults one of your best friends wouldn't you come to their rescue? Rebecca: But this wasn't just one incident. When Hermione was petrified and Malfoy made the comment about wishing she'd been killed and the bet the next one would be (pg 267 paperback US ed) he said he was going to kill Draco with his bare hands. And, although Harry is probably upset, the text gives no indication of that. And Ron kept trying to get loose from Harry and Dean for a while. Harry didn't come to the rescue of one of his best friends. Actually, I take that back; he came to the rescue of Ron. Who knows what Snape would've done to him. But Ron's action wasn't in defense of anyone. It couldn't help Hermione. It was just an emotional reaction. Taryn: Because Ron is extremely tempermental, whereas Harry is /not/. Ron has to be held back MULTIPLE times. But Harry is one who has lived a lifetime of bottling up emotions and holding his temper. We don't see it break nearly so much as Ron's. Rebecca: Actually, the first quote attributed to me is not mine. Me: Terribly sorry about that! The name seemed to have gotten lost in the posts. Had to go search back and find the original author. Fixed it now. Secondly, there was no indication that Harry was upset. He may have been. But usually we know what's going on in his head, and here we didn't. Me: Are you honestly going to try and say Harry wasn't upset by Draco, his arch-enemy, saying it was a pity one of his two /best friends/ hadn't died? Rebecca: Personally, I think it's R/H all the way. I think many of their actions can interpreted as friendship, but that upon reading GoF that's thrown out the window. Taryn: I never said I don't. ^_~ I'm a supporter of R/Hr. However, I don't see the support for it before GoF like others do. I'm more Alone!Harry than anything else, but R/Hr is second to that. I totally agree! Since POA I started thinking that way. I was just wondering where there was evidence before POA.Everything else before Ron being impressed with Hermione acting out(storming out of class, slapping Malfoy)I interpreted as friendship. It could go either way on alot of the points made. Either way, I do think Alone!Harry is is more likely to be what's going to happen. Laila [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From probono at rapidnet.com Fri Jan 24 05:10:40 2003 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 05:10:40 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ron and Hermione do TOO banter! (or do they?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50474 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Anne " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "anguaorc " > wrote: > > I do think, however, that the fact that JKR has set Ron and > Hermione > > up as a sort of comedy duo means something in terms of her > intentions > > toward their future pairing. It is just one of many, many hints > that > > we have. > > What you see as comedic hints of a future relationship, others > (including me) see as a couple of kids whose main way of "relating" > is through bickering. I thought Derannimer's explanation of the > difference between bantering and bickering was spot-on, as was her > point-by-point refutation of the "instances of bantering" ("Genius!! > BRRRRILLLLLIANT!", she yells, high-fiving Derannimer). While I > consider myself a pretty fair banterer (I especially enjoy bantering > with friends in one particular chat room I frequent), I truly do > *not* enjoy bickering and don't like to be around it, so maybe that's > why, even though I laugh at Ron and Hermione's interactions, they > often make me cringe a bit too, and I honestly don't see Hermione > enjoying them that much either. (But of course, that could just be my > own reading.) > > Long story short...to me it's far from clear that JKR is setting up > Ron and Hermione for a significant relationship, but if they really > do end up together, I'd bet dollars to doughnuts they end up as the > WW's answer to American Muggles' favorite radio couple -- The > Bickersons... > > Anne U > (PS to Derannimer - Welcome aboard, and congratulations on your new > job: *Gunnery Mate*:-) __________________________________________ I haven't speculated on SHIPS in the past but this one's too much fun! So, I'll add my two random cents. Who says they have to *like* each other to fall in love? There are far too many examples in literature where romance started between two characters who absolutely despised each other to rule it out here. 'Taming of the Shew' jumps to mind, offhand. Maybe banter wasn't the right word...perhaps even bicker isn't spot on, I say 'verbal sparring'! Yep, and I'm one of those sadists who really do delight in it. I'm finally seeing what David and Maddy (Moonlighting -80's American t.v. show) were like as youngins and everbody who's seen that show know how they turned out! *wink wink - nudge nudge*. There, so my vote is definitely for Ron/Hermione...even Draco/Hermione, but definitely not Harry/Hermione! -Tanya From skelkins at attbi.com Fri Jan 24 05:35:08 2003 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 05:35:08 -0000 Subject: What's fairness (or the factual/fictional divide) got to do with it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50475 Amy asked: > Am I being paranoid, or are you talking about me? Errr...do I get to say 'neither' here? Or is that cheating? We've hurt each others' feelings here, obviously, and I'm very sorry. I did not mean to imply that your statement about how we speak to real life people was an ad hominem attack, although looking over my post, I can see how of course it must have read that way to you. That was not precisely my intent. I was using that quote as a launching point to discuss the difference between two types of reading practice and did not realize how in context it would come across as if I were setting it forth as an example of deliberately hurtful behavior. The distinction that I wished to make between "fairness to characters" and "fairness to real people in real life" was mainly prompted by the Cho Chang thread, in which a poster's attempt to explain why a fictional character's narrative function had inspired in her a sense of dislike was likened, in rapid succession, both to racial prejudice and to real world misogyny. Now, perhaps I am overly sensitive, but I found this exceptionally upsetting to read. *My* feelings were hurt by it. I could only imagine how it might have felt to the person against whom it had actually been directed. I also thought that it was very much relevant to the distinction between how we evaluate fictional characters (do we cut them slack? do we give them the benefit of the doubt? are we forgiving of their flaws? do we try to avoid using hurtful or judgmental language when we talk about them? do we hold them responsible for things that are "not their fault?") and how we treat real people in real life, which in turn seemed to me to tie in to the issue of whether or not polemic writing is acceptable or desirable on this list. This topic has, of course, come up on the list in the past. I note that I was not the only person here uncomfortably reminded of last summer's Twins thread. I'm not going to repeat my shpiel about the difference between how we talk about fictional characters and how we talk about each other again. It's all in message #43272. As it happens, I *do* see a connection between these two issues -- as I believe you might yourself, Amy, as you did make mention of your own preference for "viewing the characters as real people" in one of your posts on this thread. The connection that I perceive is that I imagine that those who engage very strongly with the characters as "real people" likely find polemic directed against them far more upsetting to read when it appears on the list, just as I think that most people of good will and kindly dispositions probably find polemic rather painful to read in real life when it is directed against people they happen to know personally. I suppose that what makes me uneasy is that when the boundaries between the fictional world and the real one get blurred, then that is when we start seeing statements that IMO cross that line into the realm of ad hominem. It is the reason, for example, that shortly after my delurk on this list, I was accused of being the sort of person who lets the terrorists win. It is the reason that this past summer, those who defended Draco Malfoy were accused of being racist and "unconscionable." It is the reason that somebody can be accused of hypocrisy for verbally attacking a fictional character while also expressing the belief that verbally attacking *real* people is unkind behavior. These are statements that come about when people fail to draw that distinction between fictional characters and real people. So, for example, we can see this, from Petra Pan: > So, how can such dislike be > explained? Or justified? To have a > strong opinion, positive or negative, > about people we barely know is the > definition of prejudice after all. > You know, the older I get, the more > forgiving I am of those who prejudge. > It happens - we are mere mortals who > are still works in progress. It's > what we CHOOSE to do once we > recognize our own prejudices (be it > racial or otherwise) for what they > are that is truly telling of who we > are. Disliking Cho Chang on the basis of her narrative function within the text is akin to *racial prejudice?* I can't help but feel that if this is true, then many of us must be very bigoted people indeed. After all, Eileen has expressed a dislike for Mrs. Crouch on the basis of her narrative function. I have in the past expressed virtually synonymous feelings about poor Mrs. Longbottom: a woman we have never even *seen,* for heaven's sake, and know absolutely *nothing* about! I have also expressed my profound dislike for Lily Potter, while yet acknowledging that she could be (and I profoundly hope *will* be!) redeemed in my eyes in the future, should JKR ever decide to give her something more to *do* in the text than to serve as a rather ickily (IMO) idealized maternal icon. (And what can we say about those who abuse poor blameless Tom Bombadil? :-D) I do not believe that these reader responses reflect a bigoted or misogynist nature. There is a profound and significant difference between how people approach a work of fiction and how they approach real people in real life. I suppose that given that there seemed to be a *lot* of these sorts of statements floating about the list this week, it was difficult for me not to draw the conceptual connection between the blurring of the fictional/factual divide and the concerns you expressed about polemic being directed against the characters, particularly when these concerns seemed to be combined with a suggestion that how we treat people in real life might have some bearing on how we talk about the characters of the canon. I did not mean to suggest that you had attacked anyone, and I'm sorry if I gave that impression. But I do see the two phenomena as *related,* because both seem to me to be blurring the line between fictional and factual, which in turn often leads, IMO, to situations in which people feel themselves to be under attack not merely vicariously -- as when a beloved character comes under fire -- but *personally.* In real life, for example, I do not favor statements like "So-and-so is an inconsiderate weasel!" I think them rather unkind and ungenerous. They do not accord the person so described much in the way of charity, or of benefit of the doubt. I would certainly never call someone Ever So Evil! I don't even *believe* that people can, properly speaking, be "evil." I view that term as better applied to actions than to men. When it comes to fictional characters, however, I am perfectly willing to use that sort of language, because I don't really view fictional characters as people who need to be granted the benefit of the doubt, if you see what I mean. They cannot be harmed by their readers. So it does make me extremely uncomfortable when I feel that the relationship between reader and character is being equated with the relationship between person and person. It hurts my feelings, because it makes me feel as if I am being accused of being ungenerous or uncharitable or unkind or bigoted in real life. It makes me feel constrained from expressing myself, because it implies to my mind that I should not be speaking of the characters in a manner in which I would not speak of a real person who was not present to defend himself -- which doesn't leave me with very much freedom, honestly. It also makes me feel *very* nervous and twitchy and paranoid, not least of which because precedent suggests that when I see this happening, the very next thing that is going to happen is that someone will be hurling some dire ad hominem or another in my general direction. Elkins From btk6y at virginia.edu Fri Jan 24 05:45:20 2003 From: btk6y at virginia.edu (btk6y ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 05:45:20 -0000 Subject: Owl to Arabella? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50476 In the first few pages of SS, Vernon is picking his "most boring tie" for work and Petunia wrestles a screaming Dudley into his high chair. Then: "None of them noticed a large, tawny owl flutter past the window." This may (probably has) been discussed, but where is this owl going that it flutters past a window on Privet Drive? Perhaps to Arabella Figg's house to let her know that Harry will be coming to town and she will be his guardian? But why would Ms. Figg already be there? Did Dumbledore anticipate this and set her up there or was she always assigned to hang around the Dursleys'? Or was it going to someone else? There is another quick mention of owls: "...the cat on the wall outside showed no signs of sleepiness... it didn't so much quiver when a car door slammed on the next street, nor when two owls swooped overhead." This reference may not be for Ms. Figg, perhaps these owls just swooped overhead on their way to some other destination. But I find it difficult to believe that the first owl would have gotten down to window level if it wasn't delivering a message to somewhere on Privet Drive- the question is who? Bobby From sevothtarte at gmx.net Fri Jan 24 04:55:02 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 05:55:02 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron and the Trouble with Veela Message-ID: <76B0F01VXRC0ZXGCWT07KFA6RPDBOKB7.3e30c726@tk> No: HPFGUIDX 50477 Star Opal: >When she's 'turning on the old charm' for Cedric, it also works on Ron. So >that's at least two. No, no, no. Harry made a comment about Fleur using her Veela powers on Cedric - but that was just Harry talking to comfort his friend. There is NO indication at all in canon that Fleur has such powers! She is very beautiful, that's it, nothing more. Are Cho and Angelina part-Veela? Did Hermione's appearance stun the boys at the Yule Ball because she just gulped down a Polyjuice Potion with a Veela's toenail in it? Was Lockhart's mum a Veela? Or can the attention those people get for their appearance be explained by them just being very attractive? It's not as if it takes Veela powers on her part to make Ron act without thinking and talk without a moment's consideration on what he is to do - he acts like that all the time. See the countless SHIP-posts for details ... Star Opal: >While it would seem it didn't effect Cedric (seeing he >still went with Cho), it was directed at him. (Gof, page 399) ... but even IF she had these powers, they *might* well have affected Cedric at this moment, with him changing his mind later. Ron and Harry stopped being enthralled by the Veela at the world cup once they turned their power off. Plus, Cedric might have had asked Cho already, and he's not the kind of boy who tells a girl he's changed his mind and rather wants to go with someone else. Torsten From jodel at aol.com Fri Jan 24 06:47:54 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 01:47:54 EST Subject: Short Predictions for Book 5-variant Message-ID: <1df.26ac3c.2b623b9a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50478 >>David, who thinks it's more plausible that Harry's related (only by marriage) to *Ron*, through the Weasley's Muggle accountant relative, Vernon Dursley, thus ensuring Harry, his future partner (if any) and the Dursleys are *all* part of OBHWF.<< No, no, Much too simple. Besides Vernon Dursley isn't an accountant. HOWever... I'm sure that Gunnings *employs* acountants. And the Dursleys' style of living, is high enough that either Dursley is very high up on the corporate ladder, or he could be cooking the books. And we can now all confidently expect that it's Molly's-second-cousin-the-acountant who discovers this. And gets Vernon sacked. My own modest predictions (Preliminary. Pick any seven); Deaths; 1.We will see no more than one major character death happening "on stage" if that. 2.We *may* hear of an additional major character death that has taken place outside Hogwarts. If no major character death happens onstage, we will *certainly* hear of one having happened outside. 3.There will be no more than 6 character deaths, total, to which we are given names. Probably fewer, and some may be the kind of characters we have never actually met (a la Jorkins). 4. My picks for major charater death in book five are Dumbledore OR Lupin OR Hagrid (An owl OR a cat OR a toad). Reasoning for these picks; 4a. Dumbledore -- because the established pattern of this sort of coming of age quest demands it. If not in book five then book six. Note: Dumbledore WILL be removed from the effective playing board by the beginning of book 7. Either through death or by some other method. (Locked inside an oak tree?) This may not be his final word on the subject however. 4b. Lupin -- as the "sacrificial wolf". If he goes out at any point in the series, whenever it takes place, his death will buy the Forces of Light something they desparately need. That he suffers from a curse for which there is no cure marks him as "doomed" in the underlying pattern of this kind of quest. And he knows it. If he goes it will be voluntarily and knowingly. 4c. Hagrid -- out of the pure fecklessness of being Hagrid. Hagrid's death, whenever it happens will be gratuitous and horrible and probably readily avoidable if things had been managed properly. They won't be and it will hammer home the object lesson of just what is at stake. For this reason I think it more likely to take place in book six than in book five. (I do not really think that Hagrid is likely to die before Dumbledore, but Rowling may surprise me. This particular switch in probability wouldn't be all that difficult to pull off.) 5. Dark Horse major character death; The new DADA treacher. This time the character is fighting on the right side, at least. 6. REALLY Dark Horse character death; Ginny pays off her life debt. (Frankly, I think if this happens it will be either book 6 or 7.) 7. Secondary character deaths; Possible, even likely. The uncertanty is whether these will be people we already know or ones we meet in book 5. Could be either, but I would hazard that we won't see the death of more than two people that we have already actually met. 8. Other deaths; We may actually see a DE taken out this time. (Surely it hasn't escaped everyone's notice that so far the only actual death on the other side has been Volemort's own victim, Quirrell. Crouch Jr. is not dead.) 9. One of the named animals may be killed, but I tend to doubt it. Book 6 seems somehow more likely for this. 10. There is the outside posssibility that some catastrophic "accident" will take place offstage (read about it in the Daily Prophet) which accounts for several unnamed deaths. Since it is all to Voldemort's advantage that the WW not believe that he is actually back yet, the Dark mark will not be floating over the scene of the crime and no one will readily believe that the DEs are responsible. This scenario is no more than 50% likely. Other non-fatal events; 11. Malfoy will manage to actually do some permanent damage before he is slapped down by the end of the book. Probably not extensive damage. But permanent. 12. Snape's behavior will be such as to completely destroy any secure feelings the kids or the reader may be harboring as to where his real loyalties lie. 13. No one will know whose side Percy is really on, either. 14. Harry will lose yet another "legacy" advantage he believes he has. In return, he will either gain or learn about one that he has not ever considered. 15. Ron will continue to act like an insensitive git for much of the book, but will manage do something to save the day that no one else could have pulled off. Or pulled off as well. He may begin to get some glimmering of his "specialty" in this book. If not, in book 6. 16. Hermione will discover that she has made a serious blunder and have to pick up the pieces and recover lost ground. 17. We may *finally* get some idea of just what Ginny's personality *is*. 18. We can HOPE that we will finally get some idea of what Lily's personality was. (Promises, promises...) 19. Harry will end up having to give evidence of something at the MoM. 20. The Twins will provide distraction from some important detail relating to somethig that will, consequently, take us by surprise. 21. Some small piece of information will come from a ghost. Possibly Peeves. Not necessarily. (If not book 5 then in one of the other final books.) 22. *Something* in the book will hark back to PS/SS. Possibly parselmouth, possibly Flamel, possibly something else altogether. 23. The chief public conflict of this book will be related to getting the MoM to admit that Voldemort really is back. The book will end with the MoM finally capitulating to the reality of this information. Most likely cause for this capitulation will be the unequivocal news of the death of Albus Dumbledore defending the school. If this happens, the Dark Mark *will* be invoked over it. Somehow Cornelius Fudge managed to survive any attempts to dislodge him from office. It will become evident to Dumbledore's organization that Voldemort has Fudge firmly in his pocket. I'm not certain whether it will be clear whether he is a knowing collaborator, however. 24. Harry will escape some plot to kill or capture him, but this one will not be so sucessful as the last one. He takes less personal damage than he did in the graveyard. 25. I doubt that Pettigrew will be much on stage. I think the Marauders' unfinished business may be the central conflict of book 6. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From suzloua at hotmail.com Fri Jan 24 06:47:26 2003 From: suzloua at hotmail.com (Susan Atherton) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 06:47:26 -0000 Subject: Uncle Vernon a wizard? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50479 Rob wrote: "Smelting stick"? I don't remember that part or have the book to look at right now but if you talking about what I think you are I thought Vernon was refering to a cricket bat from Smeltings the school. Hard to hide a wand in that. ~dusting off her Enid Blyton knowledge~ actually, I believe the Smeltings stick was a "knobbly stick" if I remember the canon correctly (no book) "for hitting the other boys with when the teachers weren't looking". This does not sound to me like a cricket bat; rather, it sounds more like a throwback from the old-fashioned days of young men carrying walking sticks for no reason other than fashion, rather than because they needed help to walk. Well, that and hitting each other on the shins, of course. Either way, I'm pretty sure it's not a cricket bat. But then, I'm also pretty sure a wand has never set foot inside the Dursley household until young Harry's, so I should probably keep out of this theory! Susan ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "Help me Jebus!" --Homer Simpson "Shame on you! Ugly baby judges you!" --Ross Geller "Oh yeah, and did I mention I've got a baby?" --Stuart Alan Jones "You know, I telephoned my grandparents the other day, and my grandfather said to me, 'We saw your movie.' 'Which one?' I said, and he shouted, 'Betty, what was the name of that movie I didn't like?'" --Brad Pitt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 08:25:01 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (thomasmwall ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 08:25:01 -0000 Subject: Did Harry speak to the Basilisk? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50480 I'll be darned if I didn't spend almost an hour looking for something in the archives on Harry speaking to the Basilisk. I know that, somewhere, somehow, I ran across posts wondering why Harry didn't speak to the snake in the Chamber of Secrets, why he didn't attempt to counter-control it. After rereading said installment in the series, this bit caused me to stop and ponder: ---- "Help me, help me," Harry muttered wildly, "someone - anyone - " The snake's tail whipped across the floor again. Harry ducked. Something soft hit his face. The basilisk had swept the Sorting Hat into Harry's arms.(CoS 319) ---- Now, this may be a stretch, but hear me out. 1) Riddle keeps ordering the basilisk to ignore Fawkes and kill Harry. For the readers, this is presented in English, but since Riddle's talking to the snake, it stands to reason that those bits are actually in Parseltongue. 2) If they are in Parseltongue, Harry would be able to understand them, although I concede that I don't think that there are any mentions in canon of Parselmouths speaking to each other. 3) Harry, at this point in the series, is not always aware of whether or not he is or is not speaking Parseltongue, and the quote says that he "muttered wildly." So, he may just well have been muttering in Parseltongue. Now, to poke holes in my own account. 1) I don't know why the snake would help Harry, except that maybe it doesn't like Riddle, OR (and more believably) maybe it just has to obey whoever speaks to it. We don't know the full nature of Parseltongue yet, whether it's merely conversational or imperative in nature, or both. 2) Even if the snake WANTED to help Harry, it isn't clear that it would realize the significance of the Sorting Hat, or its contents. But if it did, perhaps it thought that Harry would attack Riddle with the sword. 3) I don't know why the snake isn't TALKING in the Chamber of Secrets. Surely something's on its mind, having had both of its eyes poked out, and having Riddle screaming at it. It's curious that we don't know what the basilisk is saying during that final scene. Or, maybe this is just a bit of JKR's deus ex machina at work again, and the whole thing is just a nifty coincidence. -Tom From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 10:53:33 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 10:53:33 -0000 Subject: Owl to Arabella? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50481 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "btk6y " wrote: > In the first few pages of SS ... Then: > > "None of them noticed a large, tawny owl flutter past the window." > > This may (probably has) been discussed, but where is this owl going > that it flutters past a window on Privet Drive? Perhaps to Arabella > Figg's house ...edited... > > There is another quick mention of owls: > > "...the cat on the wall outside showed no signs of sleepiness... it > didn't so much quiver when a car door slammed on the next street, > nor when two owls swooped overhead." > > ... I find it difficult to believe that the first owl would have > gotten down to window level if it wasn't delivering a message to > somewhere on Privet Drive- the question is who? > > Bobby bboy_mn: I think you are on to something. The second mention of owls says 'swooped', our common association with the word 'swoop' is that something swoops DOWN. But I'm pretty sure it is just saying the they flew overhead. Remember, that people all over England reported seeing owls everywhere in broad daylight. So the spotting of an owl wouldn't be unusual. But the owl that flew past the window, is something else. If the owl was traveling, he would have been high overhead where there were no trees, power lines, and houses to dodge around. So it would seem that the owl was searching for a specific place to land. We know that wizards live mixed in with normal people. The Weasleys live outside a muggle village. Diggory's live within a long walking distance of Weasleys. Dedalus Diggle lives in Kent. There is really only one all wizarding village and that is Hogsmeade. That would imply that all the other places that wizards live are mixed muggle/wizard villages. Also, more of a side note, I believe that Diagon Alley is a city within a city. It has high, middle, and low class housing areas, it has semi-industial/warehouse areas, and of course, the high street downtown area. I think Malfoy's house is in the rich section of Magical London, in what I call the Magic City of which Diagon Alley is only one part. I can't picture Malfoy living near muggles. I also wonder if other major cities in Britain have Magic Cities hidden within them Magic Endinburgh City, Magic Bristol City, etc... Point? That wizards live among muggle, but they don't really live with them. I think of someone living in a foreign country who is not really comfortable there; like the British in colonial India. They are completely isolated from the local culture. You could live for many years in Bangkok, and never integrate yourself into the culture. I think that's what happens to wizards. Living in the muggle world is like living in a foriegn country that doesn't particularly appeal to them. So they keep to themselves. Conclusion, it could be that Mrs. Figg always lived there. She may have done well in her long life, and had substantial assets, and bought a house in a nice suburb in Surrey for her quiet retirement. It's also worth remembering that wizards can travel without entering the muggle world. They don't have to step out the front door. So even from Surrey, the whole wizard world was easily accessible to her. So whether it was Mrs. Figg or not, I suspect it could have very easily been a witch or a wizard who lived within a few blocks of Privet Drive. But that's just my opinion. bboy_mn From lupinesque at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 11:40:45 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 11:40:45 -0000 Subject: What's fairness (or the factual/fictional divide) got to do with it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50482 Wow, I am *so* interested in this whole question. It really gets into a lot of great issues. Unfortunately, I'll be away for a few days and will probably miss the whole thing, which may be just as well since whatever I say at this point is going to be hopelessly loaded. Re: our hurting each other's feelings, it's clear reading Elkins's history of these ideas that we are in this room in very different ways. For Elkins, who, like the conscientious Mod she is, reads all the posts, it is a seminar room, where all of us can reasonably be expected to have heard what everyone else said and are thus accountable for how our words sound in context. For me, dipping in now and then and unable to read more than 30% of the posts, this is the proverbial cocktail party. I haven't heard most of the conversations and may well respond blithely in the living room to what was a very touchy subject, unbeknownst to me, out on the deck. For example, I did not read most of last summer's Twins thread, nor any of the recent Cho Chang thread, and I think I missed many of the posts this week that Elkins alluded to as being relevant to this question. It's inevitable that this difference in our contexts will cause friction now and then. I think the friction can be eased if we remember that we *don't* have the same context. Amy From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 13:10:01 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 05:10:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Owl to Arabella? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030124131001.11711.qmail@web40511.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50483 --- "btk6y " wrote: > In the first few pages of SS, Vernon is picking his > "most boring > tie" for work and Petunia wrestles a screaming > Dudley into his high > chair. Then: > > "None of them noticed a large, tawny owl flutter > past the window." > > This may (probably has) been discussed, but where is > this owl going > that it flutters past a window on Privet Drive? > Perhaps to Arabella > Figg's house to let her know that Harry will be > coming to town and > she will be his guardian? But why would Ms. Figg > already be there? > Did Dumbledore anticipate this and set her up there > or was she > always assigned to hang around the Dursleys'? Or > was it going to > someone else? > > There is another quick mention of owls: > > "...the cat on the wall outside showed no signs of > sleepiness... it > didn't so much quiver when a car door slammed on the > next street, > nor when two owls swooped overhead." > > This reference may not be for Ms. Figg, perhaps > these owls just > swooped overhead on their way to some other > destination. But I find > it difficult to believe that the first owl would > have gotten down to > window level if it wasn't delivering a message to > somewhere on > Privet Drive- the question is who? > > Bobby > This theory is possible, but, Arabella Figg doesn't live on Privet Drive, she lives 2 streets (blocks) over from the Dursleys. ~Kathryn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 09:09:11 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (thomasmwall ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 09:09:11 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore, Snap and Fudge In-Reply-To: <002101c2c30c$dc859100$d3447442@xyrael> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50484 "Scott: Wow, that was great! I have a question though- how many people actually know that Lockhart was a complete moron? Besides anyone who's ever met him, I mean. The general wizarding public has no idea he's a liar and a fake, at least not from what I've read in the canon. " That is an excellent point. I guess, in my own head, I have a tendency to just *assume* that what the general student body and staff of Hogwarts know, the rest of the wizarding community will find out by necessity. It'll be interesting to find out whether or not JKR brings Lockhart up again. You'd think that the disappearance, or even the memory-wiping of a notorious heartthrob and prolific author would cause some stir in the WW, even if Dumbledore managed to keep the whole affair hush-hush. "Scott: And as for Crouch Jr. escaping Azkaban and masquerading as Moody, well, as far as we know, the only person who knows about it outside of the regulars is Fudge - and we know Rita Skeeter won't be writing articles any time soon." Also an excellent point. I again assumed that this information would necessarily be spread in OotP. You've got the regulars (which comprise a fairly large and extended group,) Fudge, and Moody, unless you're counting Moody as a regular. Fudge himself may deny that Voldemort has returned, but somehow the MoM is going to have to address the havoc at the Triwizard Tournament, right? How will they do all that (account for the Portkey, Cedric, Crouch Sr's death) if they don't reveal the truth? In CoS Fudge says "I'm under a lot of pressure. Got to be seen to be doing something." (CoS 261) And the tournament's a big deal, right? Karkaroff's already promised to lodge complaints against the MoM. It just seems like there's going to be an inevitable fallout from the whole thing that we haven't seen yet, on account of GoF concluding shortly after the TWT ended. As a side note, since GoF picked up very shortly after PoA, I think that OotP will go the same way. If there's fallout or any kind of comeuppance for Dumbledore, it'll happen early on in the fifth book. "Scott: Dumbledore could probably be forgiven for Quirrel- I was always under the impression that he had been working at Hogwarts for at LEAST a year before SS/PS, so I don't think he was evil when he was hired." Yep, I think you're right. Quirrell is definitely a forgivable offense for Dumbledore... although I don't remember if I was clear on whether or not he worked for the school before PS/SS. Don't we hear, at some point in that book, that the position is jinxed? Or does that come out later on? I guess that my point was that any one by itself would be forgivable, and you could chock each alone up to a simple mistake. But not all four of them. And definitely not all four of them plus all of the other stuff. In fact, the more I think about it (and even though I like Dumbledore tremendously) he does seem to have a spotty record as Headmaster. In our muggle world, wouldn't you consider someone who kept making mistakes and lapses of judgement of this magnitude to be incompetent? And the people who support him unflinchingly, well, aren't they the ones that are in his fan club already? I mean Hagrid, Harry, Lupin, the Weasleys and so forth. The people who support him like that are the ones he's helped in some way. But we also know that there are people who do not approve of Dumbledore, and who would like to see him gone. Draco says at one point: "Father's always said old Dumbledore's the worst thing that's ever happened to this place." (CoS 222) Surely there are others who share that sentiment. As Lucius Malfoy says in CoS: "We shall all miss your - er - highly individual way of running things." I guess it's just one of those things we'll have to wait to see, eh? -Tom From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 10:30:28 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 10:30:28 -0000 Subject: What will come in book 5 In-Reply-To: <20030123233705.6277.qmail@web40508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50485 The HP Lexicon has a tidy list of quotes from various news sources that feature things JKR said about OotP. (http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/book_op.html) I went there and found a few quotes that really piqued my interest. The numbers in parentheses at the end of each quote refer to a key that is at the bottom of the URL posted above. JKR: "What's very important for me is when Dumbledore says that you have to choose between what is right and what is easy. This is the setup for the next three books. All of them are going to have to choose, because what is easy is often not right." (1) I think that what we're going to really start to see in OotP is a series of dilemmas that involve serious moral and ethical thought. We're going to see our characters learn tough lessons about love and hate, life and death, and honest-to-goodness self-sacrifice. And our heroes are going to learn that the results of these dilemmas are almost always less than what they'd ideally want, and yet, they still require some sort of serious loss. In other words, they will learn that sometimes they just have to choose the lesser of two evils and still not really reap any good. Plus, it's interesting that she says "All of THEM are going to have to choose." It means we're looking at moral dilemmas for all of our major characters over the next few books. No more clear cut good and evil. Complicated, difficult decisions from here on out. And I bet that some of those decisions, while "right," will break our hearts. JKR: "In book 5, we go into a whole new area, physically, an area you've never seen before, a magical world." (1) JKR: "Book five will be scary. Harry finds out a lot of things he hasn't stumbled across so far." (4) JKR: "Why do some wizards/witches become ghosts and others don't? "You will find out much more about that in book five." (3) Let's take these together. I've noticed (forgive me if this reiterates an earlier thread) that in each novel, JKR is slowly expands her universe. In PS/SS, we pretty much only have Hogwarts and Diagon Alley. In CoS, we learn of the Burrow, and also hear about Azkaban. In PoA, we learn even more about Azkaban, and then also Hogsmeade. In GoF, we get the Riddle House (and the two towns), the Quidditch World Cup, St. Mungo's, and other wizarding schools and organizations from around the world. In each case, we're also learning more about Hogwarts, and more about the Ministry of Magic. OotP will top this tremendously. There's going to be a massive outward expansion of the HP universe: I bet we'll see Azkaban, we'll see this magical world, we'll learn more about other schools, and we may even see one or two of them. And maybe, just maybe, this "magical world" has something to do with the ghosts, since she keeps alluding to them in her interviews. Oh, and at the end of GoF, Dumbledore told Sirius to lay low at Lupin's for a while, so we'll probably get to see where he lives too, not to mention wherever the giants live. And now that Lord Voldemort's around again, I wouldn't be surprised if we get to catch a glimpse into Malfoy Manor. JKR: "The Dursleys are in the next book, and there's stuff coming with them that people might not expect." (5) I am 100% convinced that Voldemort is going to entrap or endanger the Dursleys somehow, or even worse, get them to do his work for him outside of Privet Dr. He's somehow going to put their lives on the line - and Harry's going to have to make some dreadful sacrifice to save them. And he's not going to want to (because they're the Dursleys and they suck) - but it will be the "right" thing for him to do. And I don't think it will be just the Dursleys. JKR has been slowly setting up these semi-race conflicts: between pure-bloods and mudbloods, and over the House Elves, the giants - i.e. this is not just a battle for the magical world. Voldemort's after everyone and anyone who's a threat to him: wizards, mudbloods, and I'm sure he's also going to try to hurt innocent muggles. Somehow, saving those muggles is going to get in the way of saving someone else. But again, saving the muggles will be the "right" thing to do, so someone will die for it. And on the to-be-dead characters: I don't really know (or honestly, care) who the dead fan will be - all of Harry's fans strike me as annoying: Ginny, Dobby, Colin, Dennis: the whole lot - they can all go. However, as far as the major characters are concerned: I am 100% convinced that Dumbledore is toast. First, because of all of the references in GoF to his fatigue and his aged appearance. Second, because the story really can't progress (i.e. our characters really can't progress) until they're in serious, mortal danger and have to face it alone. And as long as Dumbledore is around, there's no need to be afraid, because Voldemort is terrified of him. So he's out. He's got to be. But it won't be easy - my guess is that he'll either be betrayed, or will sacrifice himself. Speculation makes the noggin hurt too much to continue... however, if anyone has foresight regarding the role Draco Malfoy (in particular) will play, I'd REALLY like to hear it. I'm very curious as to how she'll develop him. I agree with JOdel, that he'll do some serious damage before the end, but part of me also hopes that he's going to redeem himself. -Tom From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Fri Jan 24 13:31:57 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 13:31:57 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ron and Hermione do TOO banter! (or do they?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50486 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "probonoprobono " wrote: > I haven't speculated on SHIPS in the past but this one's too much > fun! So, I'll add my two random cents. > > Who says they have to *like* each other to fall in love? There are > far too many examples in literature where romance started between > two characters who absolutely despised each other to rule it out > here. 'Taming of the Shew' jumps to mind, offhand. Maybe banter > wasn't the right word...perhaps even bicker isn't spot on, I > say 'verbal sparring'! Yep, and I'm one of those sadists who really > do delight in it. I'm finally seeing what David and Maddy > (Moonlighting -80's American t.v. show) were like as youngins and > everbody who's seen that show know how they turned out! *wink wink - > nudge nudge*. There, so my vote is definitely for > Ron/Hermione...even Draco/Hermione, but definitely not > Harry/Hermione! I suppose then that Harry is indeed destined to be alone as there no such 'sparring' in the Harry/Cho or Harry/Ginny dynamic. Unless of course Harry's own personal Shrew is on the horizon - Icicle perhaps? ;) Erica From yahoo at dobro.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jan 24 13:00:02 2003 From: yahoo at dobro.freeserve.co.uk (etyksm ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 13:00:02 -0000 Subject: Uncle Vernon a Wizard? In-Reply-To: <009301c2c34a$afc4c620$a500a8c0@boghouse> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50487 > Interesting Smelting stick theory. What if Uncle Vernon is from a wizard family but has no wizard powers himself? What does that make him? A squib?? (confused on terminology) He always wants to succeed and be the best. If he can't be the best at wizardry, then that would make sense for him to put it down totally.. > As in.... If he can't do it.then.... "There are no wizards!" > My 2 cents... > Phillipa I must confess I like the theory of Vernon being a squib / the Weasley accountant. However I am not sure how Aunt Marge would then fit into the story. Were both her and Vernon the squib children of wizarding parents? S (who still hasn't managed to decide what she thinks the "unexpected stuff coming with the Dursley's" is) From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 15:00:24 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 07:00:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Short Predictions for Book 5-variant In-Reply-To: <1df.26ac3c.2b623b9a@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030124150024.77309.qmail@web40506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50488 JOdel wrote: >>HOWever... I'm sure that Gunnings *employs* acountants. And the Dursleys' style of living, is high enough that either Dursley is very high up on the corporate ladder, or he could be cooking the books. And we can now all confidently expect that it's Molly's-second-cousin-the-acountant who discovers this. And gets Vernon sacked.>> You know, I'm pretty sure that Vernon can't be sacked because he's the director of his own firm. I know it's not said in canon that he owns it, but I kinda get that impression. >>My own modest predictions (Preliminary. Pick any seven); Deaths; 1.We will see no more than one major character death happening "on stage" if that.>> Dunno. Maybe. I'd be very traumatized if more than one major character died on stage. I always hated Shakespearian endings. >>2.We *may* hear of an additional major character death that has taken place outside Hogwarts. If no major character death happens onstage, we will *certainly* hear of one having happened outside.>> Oh yeah. JKR *said* someone would die. >>3.There will be no more than 6 character deaths, total, to which we are given names. Probably fewer, and some may be the kind of characters we have never actually met (a la Jorkins). << Out of hat hat did you pull that number? >>4. My picks for major charater death in book five are Dumbledore OR Lupin OR Hagrid (An owl OR a cat OR a toad). << Nothing new here. >>Reasoning for these picks; 4a. Dumbledore -- because the established pattern of this sort of coming of age quest demands it. If not in book five then book six. Note: Dumbledore WILL be removed from the effective playing board by the beginning of book 7. Either through death or by some other method. (Locked inside an oak tree?) This may not be his final word on the subject however. >> Yes, I think he'll die. But do you think he might return to Harry after his death a la Obi-Wan Kenobi? >>4b. Lupin -- as the "sacrificial wolf". If he goes out at any point in the series, whenever it takes place, his death will buy the Forces of Light something they desparately need. That he suffers from a curse for which there is no cure marks him as "doomed" in the underlying pattern of this kind of quest. And he knows it. If he goes it will be voluntarily and knowingly.>> Yes, Lupin is indeed doomed. Maybe he'll sacrifice himself to compensate the wrong that he thinks he'd done when he was at Hogwarts? <<4c. Hagrid -- out of the pure fecklessness of being Hagrid. Hagrid's death, whenever it happens will be gratuitous and horrible and probably readily avoidable if things had been managed properly. They won't be and it will hammer home the object lesson of just what is at stake. For this reason I think it more likely to take place in book six than in book five. (I do not really think that Hagrid is likely to die before Dumbledore, but Rowling may surprise me. This particular switch in probability wouldn't be all that difficult to pull off.)>> I see Hagrid's death as a Porthos-like death, sacrificing himself in order to save others in an instance of an immediate danger. However, it's entirely possible the giants kill him, or something like that. >>5. Dark Horse major character death; The new DADA treacher. This time the character is fighting on the right side, at least. >> Well, we don't know that, do we? However, I see no reason why the DADA jinx should discontinue, so we might as well expect her to die. >>6. REALLY Dark Horse character death; Ginny pays off her life debt. (Frankly, I think if this happens it will be either book 6 or 7.) >> You know, I thought about this Ginny life-debt thing and realized that it contradicted my own life-debt theory (that the rescuer must be particularly generous and overcome many doubts when saving another wizard's life). Of course, that was just my theory, and it relies on only circumstantial evidence, but I offered it in reply to Pippin's life-debt theory. So, maybe she doesn't have a life-debt. >>7. Secondary character deaths; Possible, even likely. The uncertanty is whether these will be people we already know or ones we meet in book 5. Could be either, but I would hazard that we won't see the death of more than two people that we have already actually met.>> Voldemort is back - *people are going to start dying.* Of course, it would be evil of JKR to kill off more than two characters we know. >>8. Other deaths; We may actually see a DE taken out this time. (Surely it hasn't escaped everyone's notice that so far the only actual death on the other side has been Volemort's own victim, Quirrell. Crouch Jr. is not dead.)>> I hope so. >>9. One of the named animals may be killed, but I tend to doubt it. Book 6 seems somehow more likely for this.>> Why? >>10. There is the outside posssibility that some catastrophic "accident" will take place offstage (read about it in the Daily Prophet) which accounts for several unnamed deaths. Since it is all to Voldemort's advantage that the WW not believe that he is actually back yet, the Dark mark will not be floating over the scene of the crime and no one will readily believe that the DEs are responsible. This scenario is no more than 50% likely.>> I think JKR might save catastrophies for later, as she's got 2 more books to go. >>Other non-fatal events; 12. Snape's behavior will be such as to completely destroy any secure feelings the kids or the reader may be harboring as to where his real loyalties lie.>> I, OTOH, think that we will find out some very good things about Snape, and maybe see a marked change in his behavior towards Harry. All IMHO of course. >>13. No one will know whose side Percy is really on, either.>> I think there are two possibilities here. One is that Percy will sort out his loyalties in OoP, and another is that there will be a subplot based on Percy's tragedy in life - how he can't choose between his family and his career. He obviously loves his family - look at what he does after Task 2. >>14. Harry will lose yet another "legacy" advantage he believes he has. In return, he will either gain or learn about one that he has not ever considered.>> What advantage is that? The other legacy is his Gryffindor roots. I honestly think that he is Godric's descendant. >>15. Ron will continue to act like an insensitive git for much of the book, but will manage do something to save the day that no one else could have pulled off. Or pulled off as well. He may begin to get some glimmering of his "specialty" in this book. If not, in book 6.>> I really can't say "*continue to act like an insensitive got," as I am of the opinion that Ron's gitness pretty much ended after the Yule Brawl, and he's been controlling himself ever since. He really calms down towards the end of the book. He even asks Krum for an autograph! As for his specialty, I agree that we must find out something. >>16. Hermione will discover that she has made a serious blunder and have to pick up the pieces and recover lost ground.>> It would be an interesting plot twist, if I may use the word, but that's just speculation, really. >>17. We may *finally* get some idea of just what Ginny's personality *is*. 18. We can HOPE that we will finally get some idea of what Lily's personality was. (Promises, promises...)>> Yeah, I hope so too. Lily's character is a mystery to everyone, although I think we do have some idea of Ginny's character. >>19. Harry will end up having to give evidence of something at the MoM.>> Oh yes, if Fudge doesn't choose to ignore everything that has happened. >>20. The Twins will provide distraction from some important detail relating to somethig that will, consequently, take us by surprise.>> Don't they always? That's like saying that the phrase "Snape's lip curled" will be in the book. >>21. Some small piece of information will come from a ghost. >> Is it just a rumour, or do we have definite information that we'll find out much more about ghosts than we know already? I'd be very interested why the Bloody Baron is bloody. >>22. *Something* in the book will hark back to PS/SS. Possibly parselmouth, possibly Flamel, possibly something else altogether.>> I dunno, but something will definitely hark back to CoS. I wonder what that is. Parseltongue, probably. >>23. The chief public conflict of this book will be related to getting the MoM to admit that Voldemort really is back. The book will end with the MoM finally capitulating to the reality of this information. Most likely cause for this capitulation will be the unequivocal news of the death of Albus Dumbledore defending the school. If this happens, the Dark Mark *will* be invoked over it. Somehow Cornelius Fudge managed to survive any attempts to dislodge him from office. It will become evident to Dumbledore's organization that Voldemort has Fudge firmly in his pocket. I'm not certain whether it will be clear whether he is a knowing collaborator, however.>> Well, FRUITLESS, I say (is that the right acronym?). I however, don't think the school will be attacked. >>24. Harry will escape some plot to kill or capture him, but this one will not be so sucessful as the last one. He takes less personal damage than he did in the graveyard.>> He does that in all the books, doesn't he? And I don't see how he can take more personal damage than in the graveyard, except that he may die. Which won't happen until the end of Book 7, if at all. >>25. I doubt that Pettigrew will be much on stage. I think the Marauders' unfinished business may be the central conflict of book 6.>> I, too, think that the MWPP conflict will be dealt with at some point in the series, but I can't say in which book. I also think that we might find out more about the Prank and how exactly Sirius apologized to Lupin. Regards, Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From urbana at charter.net Fri Jan 24 15:11:15 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 15:11:15 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ron and Hermione do TOO banter! (or do they?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50489 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "probonoprobono " wrote: > Who says they have to *like* each other to fall in love? There are > far too many examples in literature where romance started between > two characters who absolutely despised each other to rule it out > here. 'Taming of the Shew' jumps to mind, offhand. Maybe banter > wasn't the right word...perhaps even bicker isn't spot on, I > say 'verbal sparring'! Yep, and I'm one of those sadists who really > do delight in it. I'm finally seeing what David and Maddy > (Moonlighting -80's American t.v. show) were like as youngins and > everbody who's seen that show know how they turned out! *wink wink - Yes, [pardon the non-HP-TV-show contamination for one minute], Maddie and David ended up in bed together and had a steamy relationship that did not last (IIRC, but I can barely remember because that show ended over 10 years ago.) > There, so my vote is definitely for > Ron/Hermione...even Draco/Hermione, but definitely not > Harry/Hermione! Draco/Hermione?? :-) Ron and Hermione do seem to have a lot of conflict, which doesn't necessarily make a great long-term relationship. Perhaps I'm just too used to my own personal experience to be able to understand why other people might want to spend their lives arguing with someone. Not everyone needs or wants "sparks" and conflict. Many people (myself included) prefer to be with someone to whom they don't have to explain themselves 20 times a day. I'll speak only for myself here, but I ship H/Hr because I think each of them will *eventually* (possibly not until page 1,348 of Book 7, or even later) see the other as their Rock of Gibraltar, their emotional anchor, the one person who is *always* there for them. That's *my* story, and I'm sticking to it. Anne U (sorry to borrow that phrase, bboy-mn; you can take it back now:-) From lupinesque at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 15:11:29 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 15:11:29 -0000 Subject: SHIP: R/H question for Ebony (was Ron and Hermione do TOO banter!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50490 Ebony wrote: > I emphatically do expect to see R/H in future books, David. I think > that Ron likes her, and I think that Hermione will date him not > because she likes him, but for other reasons that I can discuss in > detail later. Teenage girls date guys all the time who are more > interested than they are, I would assert. I didn't know how you were going to handle this question, Ebony, and I'm impressed. I wholeheartedly agree that one can see R/H happening even if one thinks the two of them aren't suited, and even if one thinks that Hermione has shown not a glimmer of interest. I think we will see R/H even though I'm not at all convinced that Hermione has feelings for Ron as of the end of GF. The argument has run thus in the past: R/Her: I think Ron and Hermione are going to get together. Look at him! He's smitten. H/Her: But Hermione doesn't reciprocate. R/Her: That doesn't matter. H/Her: What? You think it's sufficient basis for a relationship for the boy to like the girl? Isn't that a bit patriarchal? But it seems to me that that isn't quite the point. For a relationship to start, one person has to express an interest. It is not universal, perhaps not even usual, for both to feel the stirrings of more-than-friendship at the same time. For the relationship to be successful over more than a few dates, sure, the interest has to be reciprocated. But R/H isn't at that stage. So you're looking out at the universe of possible couples and you see one boy interested in one girl. That seems to me to increase the chances that of all the possible combinations, that one is going to be realized. No patriarchal assumptions are necessary. As for whether Ron and Hermione will crash and burn after one declaration (very possible), one date (ditto), or ten years of marriage (not likely to be seen in these books or an epilogue, but thank heaven for fanfiction), it's certainly possible. I got off the R/H ship because people kept telling me that that ship was going all the way to "'til death does us part" and I wanted the local, not the express. (Pardon the mixed transportation metaphor.) I do have high hopes that Ron will develop into someone a lot more mature (literary-development hopes, and sufferer-in-the-advanced- stages-of-the-affective-fallacy hopes). It is as if we're seeing three children grow up and each deals with his/her identity and issues at different times. This puts strain on a relationship, e.g., when Ron's frustration with his poverty and his position in his family becomes acute, he lashes out at his friend for being rich and famous. Sometimes those gaps widen; sometimes they heal. Sometimes they widen *then* heal. I think it's even money which one will happen with Ron and Harry, though if *I* were a betting woman, I would put my money on the series ending with everyone in the Trio who's still alive being harmonious. That is probably my wishful thinking speaking, which is why I should never to go Vegas. Ebony wrote: > I feel so strongly that R/H makes no sense in terms of the broader > narrative that if I see OBHWF development without conflict in the > rest of canon, I'd be fascinated and would definitely expend some > time and energy critiquing it on a scholarly level. Myself, I doubt anything major will happen in the relationship of Ron, Harry, and Hermione "without conflict," because their friendship has already been through a lot of conflict. In all four books, in all three pairings--Ron-Hermione, Hermione-Harry, and Harry-Ron--as well as various two-on-one combos like Ron and Harry ignoring Hermione in PA, the relationship has had its ups and downs. Of all the combinations, I think the conflict between Ron and Hermione is sharpest. Or is this not what you mean? If you mean crash-and-burn conflict on the scale of divorce or betrayal rather than just disagreement or tension, this is going out on a limb indeed, and gives you serious bragging rights, since we know so little about the broader narrative. I often wonder whether JKR is going to go into the dark, dank territory of betrayal amongst the Trio (e.g. Ron Goes Over to the DEs, At Least Temporarily) or will keep it "all for one, one for all" with only glitches along the way. I can see predictors for either in "the story so far." Amy Z From heidit at netbox.com Fri Jan 24 15:32:19 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 10:32:19 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: R/H question for Ebony (was Ron and Hermione do TOO banter!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <04df01c2c3bd$c91afea0$0301a8c0@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 50491 Amy wrote: > I often wonder whether > JKR is going to go into the dark, dank territory of betrayal amongst > the Trio (e.g. Ron Goes Over to the DEs, At Least Temporarily) or > will keep it "all for one, one for all" with only glitches along the > way. I can see predictors for either in "the story so far." So can I. And to go a little way down the Road Of Making A Canon Point, I'll point out a few of them: 1. Hermione has occasionally been more concerned with What Is Right than How Her Friends Feel (the firebolt, for example) - thus, if someone on the Bad Side like Draco put up a pretense of Moving Towards Good she would likely be the first of the three to be willing to give him a chance, which could lead her into a trap if Draco turned out to be Not So good After All. 2. Ron has shown himself to have a knee-jerk reaction to follow at least some traditional prejudices of the wizarding world about house-elves, werewolves and giants. And really giant spiders, but, well, who can blame him for that one? Not me, that's for sure. He's also shown that he can manifest jealousy and transmutate it into feelings of betrayal, as he did when Harry's name was pulled out of the Goblet. 3. Harry? Well, it's hard for Harry to betray himself, but he could take actions, consciously or unconsciously, that make his friends feel betrayed by him, if he again retreats into himself and doesn't take the first step to rebuilding bridges if something happens to knock them down again. While he can be pro-active on behalf of the wizarding world in general, as well as of his own life (see PS/SS) he's not very pro-active at working on friendships. Ron came to *him* and his friendship with Hermione didn't generate, initially, from mutual likes or interests - it grew out of his being noble and good and brave and wonderful (and Ron finally getting the charm right (see, I can say nice things about him!)). I do hope that she goes into this territory (and not just because I think Ron was brainwashed as a child by Peter Pettigrew (it's not a character flaw, guys! It's like the Manchurian Candidate - he couldn't prevent it and he can't avoid it now!) on both sides - I'd like to see some betrayal of Voldemort, other than in the Snape-backstory, because I think it's a good teaching opportunity for kids and adults alike - it's the reason I told someone yesterday that if she leaves Draco as a 2 dimensional at-school foil for the next three books, I *will* think she's missed an opportunity in telling the story. And I'll always wish she hadn't. Heidi From amani at charter.net Fri Jan 24 16:26:48 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 11:26:48 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Did Harry speak to the Basilisk? References: Message-ID: <004e01c2c3c5$64c98fe0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50492 Tom: I'll be darned if I didn't spend almost an hour looking for something in the archives on Harry speaking to the Basilisk. I know that, somewhere, somehow, I ran across posts wondering why Harry didn't speak to the snake in the Chamber of Secrets, why he didn't attempt to counter-control it. Me: Because the basilisk can only be controlled by the Heir of Slytherin. As Professor Binns puts it: "Slytherin, according to the legend, sealed the Chamber of Secrets so that none would be able to open it until his own true heir arrived at the school. The **heir alone** would be able to unseal the Chamber of Secrets, unleash the horror within, and use it to purge the school of all who were unworthy to study magic." (US paperback p. 151, emphasis mine) So it stands to reason that /only/ the Heir of Slytherin could control the basilisk, whether another person was a parselmouth or not. Hah! I'm proud of myself for not giving into movie contamination and using Tom's, "It only obeys me." --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jan 24 16:36:22 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 16:36:22 -0000 Subject: Banter and other SHIP subjects In-Reply-To: <00ca01c2c35f$2d50e1a0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50493 Speaking of whether the first encounters for R/H, H/G have any plot significance, I asked: > <<<>>>>>> Penny: > Pippin, that analysis only works if you buy R/H and/or H/G, which I do not. Your read of PS/SS would comport with a R/H & H/G ending. Mine would not. But, I do seriously doubt that she *intended* to convey a destiny for those two couples in PS, even if that is how it will turn out. <<<< Perhaps you aren't familiar with the screen-writing term "cute meet" ? One of the things I was taught in my basic screen-writing class was that the romantic-comedy couple should meet under embarrassing/amusing/unlikely circumstances. I think searching for a toad qualifies, as does acting half one's age. Arranging for a cute meet between your characters is a signal that romance is to come, and part of the fun, of course, is that the characters haven't a clue about it. On the way to Hogwarts, Harry meets seven males (Ron, Fred, George, Draco, Crabbe, Goyle and Neville, not counting Scabbers/Pettigrew) and three females (Molly, Hermione, and Ginny) only two of whom are eligible. Ron meets exactly one, and she's looking for a toad. Whether Rowling plans to observe the "cute meet" convention here or stand it on its head, she's obviously not ignoring it. Penny: >> I truly don't think she's going to send a message that two sets of teenagers can essentially be set up for life at age 17/18, with the foundation for their destiny laid out at age 11 (or 10 in the case of Ginny). The simple reality of contemporary life is that teenage romances transitioning into successful healthy marriages is rare and becoming even more rare with every passing year. The divorce statistics in the UK are particularly alarming from what I understand. << I admit the divorce statistics are alarming, and as the mother of a teen myself, I am concerned about them. But the teen marriage failure rates include *all* marriages with partners under the age of twenty. I believe, and please correct me if I am wrong, that if you look solely at couples who are eighteen and older, high school graduates, not pregnant at the time of the marriage, not poor, and not fleeing an abusive situation, things begin to look much brighter. I fully expect that Ron will no longer be poor at the end of Book Seven. We have JKR's word that Hermione will not get pregnant at Hogwarts. And I certainly expect all the survivors to finish school, including Ginny, which means that if an H/G marriage takes place, it will be in the epilogue. Besides that, I don't think JKR is obligated to have a character pop up and explain that early marriages are hazardous any more than she has to have all the Quidditch players wear helmets. We may get more details on why the Riddle Sr. marriage failed. That should be cautionary enough, ie, don't try this at home or you may end up dead and your orphan child will grow up to be an evil Overlord. Me: > <<<< who's cognizant of the ending will be able to read PS/SS and not see authorial indications of potential attraction. Note that it's attraction I'm talking about, not liking or love.>>>>>>> Penny: > I don't *see* any attraction there. None. They *hate* each other (Ron and Hermione that is). Harry is very embarrassed by Ginny's display of hero-worship.<< See above. I didn't say attraction, I said "authorial indications of potential attraction." Perhaps I should have said "narrative" instead of "authorial." I'm not claiming to read JKR's mind BTW, where in PS/SS do you see signs that Harry is embarrassed by Ginny's behavior? Penny: >The only thing I know is that Neil Murray bears a rather striking resemblance to what an adult Harry Potter might look like. < Um, you wouldn't be implying that because he *looks* like Harry Potter, he must *act* like Harry Potter? That would be judging a person according to appearance. That, as we all know, is a very evil despicable thing to do, which no right-thinking H/H 'er can condone or forgive. Right? Sorry about the sarcasm, but that's the other thing. You see, we sarcastic people know that sarcasm has to be practiced constantly. Yes, sharp wits must be honed. In fact we, um, well, we sort of *enjoy* being sarcastic, you see. So we think that when Hermione goes acid, well, she gets a charge out of it, just like we would. Of course, sometimes she and Ron go too far. They hurt each others feelings. We see what they do about it in the first three books. They stop speaking, then make up. That's part of the normal process of courtship--learning each others' limits. So is disillusionment and reconciliation. But something very interesting happens in GoF. For the first time, Harry isn't there for the reconciliation. *Something* must have happened, because one minute Ron and Hermione are standing ten feet apart and screaming, and the next morning--well, I'll let Harry tell it: ==== Ron and Hermione seemed to have reached an unspoken agreement not to discuss their argument. They were being quite friendly to each other, though oddly formal. ===== Oh, that 'seemed' -- that covers a multitude of assumptions, doesn't it. We'd know a lot more about the status of Ron and Hermione's relationship if we knew what had *really* happened. Did he apologize? Did she forgive? Did he? Did Ron, in fact, do what Ebony accuses him of lacking the magnaminity to do, and wish Hermione *bon chance* with Krum? It seems likely enough to me. He doesn't react, except to sound rather hopeful about the Giant Squid, when Hermione's looking at Krum in his bathing suit. He doesn't even react when, later, in the Second Task, Krum is picking Rita out of Hermione's hair. He doesn't seem to be one of the people teasing her about being the person Krum would miss most. It does bother him, of course, as we find out in Potions. But Hermione doesn't see him grinding his pestle, because *she's not looking at him,* and it's clear from the narration that Ron is unaware of what he's doing. Obviously, he'd really like to know whether she decided to go to Bulgaria. But after she makes it clear she's not going to tell him, he never brings it up again. That is very different from when he wanted to know who was taking her to the ball. Or, and I guess this is the H/H assumption, did Hermione just swallow her pride for Harry's sake on Boxing Day? Putting that in black and white, I can't believe it. In fact, I'll go further. If she did that, Harry can have her. She's not good enough for my Ron. Pippin From gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 16:41:20 2003 From: gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com (gingersnape1966 ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 16:41:20 -0000 Subject: FILK: Evil!Hermione, SHIPpers get no rest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50494 Disclaimer: I do not think in any way that Hermione is evil. This is just kind of one of those things that pops into your head after you read Rita Skeeter. With all the SHIPpers fortifying their positions, I thought we could all just step back and have a laugh. It is not intended to disparage SHIPping or any particular SHIP in any way. Please read it "tongue in cheek" and if anyone is bothered by it, I'll eat a ton-tongue toffee first. Ginger Evil!Hermione, SHIPpers get no rest. All your thoughts and actions they put to the test. Evil!Hermione; Harry, Ron, and Krum. Guess you've passed the age where you think boys are dumb. Some say kissing Harry adds some tension Others say in Europe it is done. Other girls are chasing after Viktor- See how they run! Evil!Hermione, slapping Malfoy's mug. Ron defends your honour, has to belch a slug Ugh, ugh, ugh, ugh,..... See how they run! Evil!Hermione, on that Christmas night Wish that Harry would have heard the whole darn fight. By the lake you take a walk with Viktor By a water beetle you're undone. Rita Skeeter yelling "Stop the presses!" See how they run. Evil!Hermione, SHIPpers get no rest Only J K Rowling knows who you like best. Second disclaimer: I couldn't find a tape with this song on it and had to use a lyrics site. Oh, the shame. Ginger From dicentra at xmission.com Fri Jan 24 16:47:33 2003 From: dicentra at xmission.com (dicentra63 ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 16:47:33 -0000 Subject: What's the factual/fictional divide got to do with it? It's ego. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50495 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ssk7882 " wrote: > > I imagine that those who > engage very strongly with the characters as "real people" likely > find polemic directed against them far more upsetting to read > when it appears on the list, just as I think that most people > of good will and kindly dispositions probably find polemic > rather painful to read in real life when it is directed against > people they happen to know personally. Maybe it's just me, but sometimes when I hear polemic against a character I like, I don't become defensive because I see the character as "real." I get defensive because I feel that my skill as a reader is being challenged. I react as if the writer of the polemic were saying, "Check me out, I figured out the hidden truth while you fell into the snare." Or worse: "If you were sensitive/smart/perceptive enough, you'd have seen CharacterX for what s/he really is." That's not how I always react, mind. When people (**coughSnapefanscough**) slam Sirius, I see it merely as people taking sides in an unresolved, ambiguous conflict (it is TOO!) that exists within the series. When Pippin came up with LYCANTHROPE (Lupin is Evil), I was fascinated by the alternate reading and found it convincing. However, on other occasions, my ego gets bruised. I'll have to admit, Elk, that the twins thing got to me that way. My reaction to your "the twins are bullies" posts was to think that if *I* didn't see them as bullies, I must be "aiding and abetting" them in some way. That I'm one of those kids who stands by and watches bullies beat up on other kids and cheers for the bullies. That I'm snickering up my sleeve like Crabbe and Goyle. Let me be clear, though. I do not think that you were trying to communicate *that* with your posts. You were setting down a disturbingly persuasive argument against the twins, not against their real-life fans. It's just that when I realized that I had never questioned the twins' actions, I felt guilty, both as a reader and as a human being. It made me feel defensive. That, of course, is my problem and mine alone. I haven't gone back to read what I said back then, but if I remember correctly, the worst I implied about *you* was that you were sitting atop Affective Fallacy, which was a criticism of your reading and not your character. I still don't think that the twins are bullies in the same sense as Draco is, but I no longer see them as pure comic relief, either. (Thanks a LOT.) It might be that one of the reactions people are having to "trashing Ron and Harry" is that they had never *noticed* how truly rotten they can be at times. When reading a convincing argument about their rotten behavior, one might feel that s/he as a reader is being accused of condoning that behavior. Or not. (BTW: My reaction to reading Ebony's post wasn't defensiveness, however--it was anger at Ron and Harry for being such insufferable gits. I switched off my HP wallpaper on the computer so I wouldn't have to look at them. :D) At any rate, the failure to distinguish between fictional characters and real people isn't the only reason people have strong emotional reactions to polemic. Sometimes (maybe just in my case, I don't know) it's a bruised ego over not having noticed "the obvious." Or a guilty conscience for not recognizing bad behavior for what it is. Either way, I have a responsibility to recognize my subjective responses to literary criticism as just that--subjective--and the critiques themselves as being aimed at the characters, not at me. Whatever guilt they stir up is a separate issue entirely that I have to work out between me and God and JKR. --Dicentra, leaving the confessional now From christi0469 at hotmail.com Fri Jan 24 16:50:43 2003 From: christi0469 at hotmail.com (christi0469 ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 16:50:43 -0000 Subject: Owl to Arabella? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50496 --Bobby wrote- > > In the first few pages of SS ... Then: > > > > "None of them noticed a large, tawny owl flutter past the window." > > > > This may (probably has) been discussed, but where is this owl going > > that it flutters past a window on Privet Drive? Perhaps to Arabella > > Figg's house ...edited... > > > > There is another quick mention of owls: > > > > "...the cat on the wall outside showed no signs of sleepiness... it > > didn't so much quiver when a car door slammed on the next street, > > nor when two owls swooped overhead." > > > > ... I find it difficult to believe that the first owl would have > > gotten down to window level if it wasn't delivering a message to > > somewhere on Privet Drive- the question is who? > > > > Bobby > > bboy_replied- > I think you are on to something. The second mention of owls says > 'swooped', our common association with the word 'swoop' is that > something swoops DOWN. But I'm pretty sure it is just saying the they > flew overhead. Remember, that people all over England reported seeing > owls everywhere in broad daylight. So the spotting of an owl wouldn't > be unusual. > > But the owl that flew past the window, is something else. If the owl > was traveling, he would have been high overhead where there were no > trees, power lines, and houses to dodge around. So it would seem that > the owl was searching for a specific place to land. > > We know that wizards live mixed in with normal people. The Weasleys > live outside a muggle village. Diggory's live within a long walking > distance of Weasleys. Dedalus Diggle lives in Kent. There is really > only one all wizarding village and that is Hogsmeade. That would imply > that all the other places that wizards live are mixed muggle/wizard > villages. part of reply snipped > So whether it was Mrs. Figg or not, I suspect it could have very > easily been a witch or a wizard who lived within a few blocks of > Privet Drive. > > But that's just my opinion. > > bboy_mn We know that there are also magical/muggle mixed marriages. Some of these families would most likely live in muggle areas, and it would stand to reason that the magical spouse would receive owls. Harry may find out that a Hogwarts student is actually a neighbor as well. The owl business seems exactly like the kind of subtle forshadowing the JKR is so fond of. Christi From siskiou at earthlink.net Fri Jan 24 16:53:28 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 08:53:28 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: R/H question for Ebony (was Ron and Hermione do TOO banter!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <10974040103.20030124085328@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 50497 Hi, Friday, January 24, 2003, 7:11:29 AM, Amy wrote: > The argument has run thus in the past: > R/Her: I think Ron and Hermione are going to get together. Look at > him! He's smitten. > H/Her: But Hermione doesn't reciprocate. > R/Her: That doesn't matter. Uh, no! Where did you get that idea? R/Hers have given reasons why they believe Hermione is interested in Ron (can't be helped that H/Hers don't accept those ). -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 17:00:02 2003 From: gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com (gingersnape1966 ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 17:00:02 -0000 Subject: FILK Evil! Hermione Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50498 Oh, Gosh, I'm an idiot! It is to the tune of Lady Madonna by the Beatles. How could I have forgotten to add that? Blushingly, Ginger From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 17:03:53 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 17:03:53 -0000 Subject: Where the Malfoys Live (WAS:Re: Owl to Arabella?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50499 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve " wrote: > Also, more of a side note, I believe that Diagon Alley is a city > within a city. It has high, middle, and low class housing areas, it > has semi-industial/warehouse areas, and of course, the high street > downtown area. I think Malfoy's house is in the rich section of > Magical London, in what I call the Magic City of which Diagon Alley is > only one part. I can't picture Malfoy living near muggles. > You have mentioned this before, as I recall, and my thoughts on it have finally crystallized in my mind to where I can reply (but if I make any mistakes about RL fact, any Brits reading this should correct me!) There are two points to make. 1) The Malfoys are said to live in a Manor (see the Borgin & Burkes episode in CoS, where Lucius expects the items he is selling to be picked up at his manor). If I am not mistaken, a manor is a large house on a large tract of land owned by a member of the gentry (or nobility or upper class) in Britain (or, this is the way things used to be, under the class system). It would be the seat, out in the country somewhere, of a landed gentleman and his family, with (am I right?) a village nearby. Like the Riddle House with Little Hangleton. I can certainly see the Malfoys living like this -- there is privacy, and anyway it's a nice place for Draco to ride his broom. 2) But the upper class, besides having homes on their ancestral lands, also had houses in London, for the purposes of socializing, which was also very important to them. This is how they made their connections, how their sons and daughters met suitable marriage partners, and may even have often been more comfortable than those draughty old houses in the country. I can certainly see that the upper class wizards (however many there may be) having nice houses in the fashionable section of the Diagon Alley community. So, to conclude, I think the Malfoys for the most part probably do live in that manor in the country. I also think it quite likely they have a place in London which Lucius finds quite convenient for when he has business there with the Ministry or on some board of governors or other of which he is a member. Annemehr apologizing in advance if I've mangled any RL facts too badly... From amani at charter.net Fri Jan 24 17:09:39 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 12:09:39 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What will come in book 5ish References: <130.19f06412.2b60fbdf@aol.com> Message-ID: <007c01c2c3cb$61083360$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50500 Tzvi: I'm sure this has been said a million times before, but does anyone think that Cedric will come back as a ghost? He had unfinished business, which is why most ghosts hang around. Me: Well, the whole "unfinished business" bit about being ghosts has yet to be applied to Rowling's world: Q. What makes some witches/wizards become ghosts after they die and some not? A. You don't really find that out until Book VII, but I can say that the happiest people do not become ghosts. As you might guess, Moaning Myrtle! (http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript1.htm) Cedric was popular, admired, nice... He seemed to been having a good time at school. Tzvi: As well, I think that Harry's fan will be Mr. Diggory. I believe the Diggorys truly believe what happened and that Harry did all that he could to help. Me: Mr. Diggory? Mr. Diggory who wildly accused Harry of producing the Dark Mark? Mr. Diggory who is obviously enveloped in his intense adoration of Cedric enough to be blinded by truth? I've seen parents like that in RL. They are so wrapped up in their children that they cannot see fault in them. And then, of course, Harry Potter stole Cedric's glory, causing great animosity from Mr. Diggory. No, I cannot see Mr. Diggory becoming a fan of Harry's at /all/, even if he /does/ believe that Cedric's death wasn't Harry's fault. Tzvi: I don't think that Hedwig will die; However, in recent discussions I believe that a phoenix will seek out Harry. If not, he will rescue one and Hedwig will take a backseat. If not, Hedwig will try and protect Harry. I don't see what you need an owl for in school anyways besides the mail. I don't think I would appreciate being turned into a pumpkin or poisoned. Me: I think if /any/ phoenix becomes Harry's pet, it will be Fawkes. He already has a large connection to him. Right now, phoenixes have a large mysticism because we only see /one/ in the books. If they just started randomly showing up, they wouldn't be nearly so interesting. And what do you need an owl in school for? Hedwig is one of Harry's best friends. She's family. Tzvi: Petunia is a squib, Dudley will have some magic in him I think. Someone you wouldne suspect will come out. Me: I really dislike the Squib!Petunia theory, namely because Rowling herself seems to refer to Lily as muggle-born. (http://books.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4037903,00.html) Tzvi: We have also just learned about the Longbottoms. A question I have to ask is, the Death Eaters were searching for L.Voldermort and tortured the Longbottoms, after both elder Potters were killed. Why arent there any grandparent Potters? and Why didn't the Death Eaters head straight for Harry? Protected I guess. Dumbledore magic. Maybe the Longbottoms can be cured and they will come back. Me: My best guess is that there aren't any other Potters left because they were killed. Voldmort seemed pretty intent on killing blood Potters when he went after both James and Harry but told Lily to /step aside/. As for the Death Eaters not going after Harry--I'd be running for it or getting myself out of suspicion ASAP. Sure, they've been having great fun, and I'm sure they all figured they'd be helping to rule the world with Voldemort, but their powerhouse just kicked the bucket. These aren't wonderfully brave people. These are people who are generally out to save their own skin. However, I do very much subscribe to MALEVOLENCE--Lucius' large donations to St. Mungos has something to do with keeping the Longbottoms incapacitated to hide something they know. So I think we may very well hear from them one day. Tzvi: No Weasleys will die in any of the books. No one important will unless it's for a good cause. It would be stupid to kill off anyone except for Dumbledore or Harry. Me: Fighting against Voldemort isn't a good cause? And there certainly is good cause in killing off others--to get at Harry. He's extremely well-protected, but all the people he cares for aren't as much. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From probono at rapidnet.com Fri Jan 24 17:12:09 2003 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 17:12:09 -0000 Subject: Did Harry speak to the Basilisk? In-Reply-To: <004e01c2c3c5$64c98fe0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50501 > Taryn wrote: > Because the basilisk can only be controlled by the Heir of Slytherin. As Professor Binns puts it: > > "Slytherin, according to the legend, sealed the Chamber of Secrets so that none would be able to open it until his own true heir arrived at the school. The **heir alone** would be able to unseal the Chamber of Secrets, unleash the horror within, and use it to purge the school of all who were unworthy to study magic." (US paperback p. 151, emphasis mine) > > So it stands to reason that /only/ the Heir of Slytherin could control the basilisk, whether another person was a parselmouth or not. ------------ Me: I always had the impression that the reason only the Heir of Slytherin can open the chamber and control the basilisk is because, until Harry, the only known Parselmouths were all Slytherin's heirs? It was accepted in the WW that parseltongue was a hereditary trait. Slytherin knew this, in fact, he counted on it when he built the chamber. And we know that the actual Heir of Slytherin (Riddle) neither opened the chamber nor controlled the basilisk (at least not until the end of CoS). Riddle controlled Ginny, Ginny opened the chamber and Ginny ordered the basilisk to do her bidding. And of course, Harry opened the chamber too. If only the Heir of Slytherin can open the chamber and control the basilisk, than both Harry and Ginny are somehow related to Slytherin (and each other! ). -Tanya From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 09:18:26 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 09:18:26 -0000 Subject: Did Harry speak to the Basilisk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50502 --- Tom wrote: > > I'll be darned if I didn't spend almost an hour looking for something > in the archives on Harry speaking to the Basilisk. I know that, > somewhere, somehow, I ran across posts wondering why Harry didn't > speak to the snake in the Chamber of Secrets, why he didn't attempt > to counter-control it. > > After rereading said installment in the series, this bit caused me to > stop and ponder: > > ---- > "Help me, help me," Harry muttered wildly, "someone - anyone - " > > The snake's tail whipped across the floor again. Harry ducked. > Something soft hit his face. > > The basilisk had swept the Sorting Hat into Harry's arms.(CoS 319) > ---- Me: Yes-- I think that Harry could have spoken in Parseltongue and the Basilisk helped him. Did it know about Gryffindor's sword in the hat? Possibly. After all, the basilisk was Salazar Slytherin's pet, and people do tell things to their pets, so there is a possibility, providing that S. Slytherin - or Tom Marvolo Riddle - knew that Godric Gryffindor put it there. And-- I do believe that Parseltongue can be discussive (as Harry was in the Zoo with the Boa or Nadine giving information to Voldemort), but also commanding. Such as Harry telling the snake Draco summoned in Duel club to leave Justin, Tom Riddle giving orders to the basilisk. It is possible that a snake must obey parseltongue commands. That might have lead to the invention of Imperius Curse by one parselmouth or other, I think... -- Finwitch From gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 17:26:56 2003 From: gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com (gingersnape1966 ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 17:26:56 -0000 Subject: FILK: Only Neville Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50503 To the tune of One Tin Soldier by Coven (I remembered this time) For the gang of Fourth Man Theorists Listen children to a story That was told so long ago Bout and auror called Longbottom And the family he loved so. Four Deatheaters thought he knew the Whereabouts of You-Know-Who So they went and tried to force it With an evil spell or two. Go ahead and curse your neighbour. Go and crucio a friend. Do it in the name of You-Know-Who And you'll be honoured in the end. There won't be any aurors calling After that dark day, And the tearfull morning after... Only Neville flies away. So the DE's cursed the auror, Turned their wands on his poor wife, Left them in their incoherence. Took the mind, but spared the life. With no hope of cure or potion, Life at Mungo's they began. And they left poor little Neville In the care of his strong Gran. Now the wizards cried with anger Mount your broomsticks! Draw your wands! So they captured the deatheaters Sent them off to Azkaban. Little Neville, off at Hogwarts, Raised his hand, though full of dread. Asked about the evil curses- "Crucio" was all he said. Go ahead and curse your neighbour Go and crucio a friend. Do it in the name of You-Know-Who Azkaban will be your end. Longbottoms are in St. Mungo's. Dementors use you for their play. And the tearfull morning after... Only Neville flies away. The flying part is an assumption that Gran came and got him on her broomstick-it fit the meter. Ginger From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 09:39:43 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 09:39:43 -0000 Subject: Owl to Arabella? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50504 --- Bobby wrote: > In the first few pages of SS, Vernon is picking his "most boring > tie" for work and Petunia wrestles a screaming Dudley into his high > chair. Then: > > "None of them noticed a large, tawny owl flutter past the window." > > This may (probably has) been discussed, but where is this owl going > that it flutters past a window on Privet Drive? Perhaps to Arabella > Figg's house to let her know that Harry will be coming to town and > she will be his guardian? But why would Ms. Figg already be there? > Did Dumbledore anticipate this and set her up there or was she > always assigned to hang around the Dursleys'? Or was it going to > someone else? Well, I think that all her cats are people who are being punished for i.e. illegal animagi. Punishment being that they must stay in their animal form for several years, never turning back to human... Around Muggles so that some wizard doesn't force them to... OR she's educating Hogwarts graduates in animagi - or she just handle's the registration of cat-animagi or what ever. Still, I think those aren't just cats and kneazels... > There is another quick mention of owls: > > "...the cat on the wall outside showed no signs of sleepiness... it > didn't so much quiver when a car door slammed on the next street, > nor when two owls swooped overhead." > > This reference may not be for Ms. Figg, perhaps these owls just > swooped overhead on their way to some other destination. But I find > it difficult to believe that the first owl would have gotten down to > window level if it wasn't delivering a message to somewhere on > Privet Drive- the question is who? Could have been a cat-animagus, (Either Ms McGonagall or one of Mrs Figgs' cats..) but I do believe that Mrs Figg was recieving at least one Owl, of a magical child in her neighbourhood, at Dursleys. She was probably obliviating anyone who saw the flying motorcycle arrive, but keeping watch on Harry in particular... -- Finwitch From mbroadwater at lulu.com Fri Jan 24 16:41:00 2003 From: mbroadwater at lulu.com (Michael Broadwater) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 11:41:00 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Did Harry speak to the Basilisk? In-Reply-To: <004e01c2c3c5$64c98fe0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: <9ED43CFA-2FBA-11D7-8323-000393681E04@lulu.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50505 On Friday, Jan 24, 2003, at 11:26 US/Eastern, Taryn Kimel wrote: > > Taryn: > > "Slytherin, according to the legend, sealed the Chamber of Secrets so > that none would be able to open it until his own true heir arrived at > the school. The **heir alone** would be able to unseal the Chamber of > Secrets, unleash the horror within, and use it to purge the school of > all who were unworthy to study magic." (US paperback p. 151, emphasis > mine) > > So it stands to reason that /only/ the Heir of Slytherin could control > the basilisk, whether another person was a parselmouth or not. Me: But by that logic, Harry shouldn't have been able to unseal the Chamber either. Mike [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cantor at vgernet.net Fri Jan 24 17:03:04 2003 From: cantor at vgernet.net (cantoramy ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 17:03:04 -0000 Subject: Owl to Arabella? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50506 I don't think that an owl wasn't making a delivery as much as scouting out the Dursley's house so he could report back to the other owls. Everyone must have known that Harry was being taken there, and since nobody had probably even heard of the Dursley's before this, there was certainly major curiosity about them. Also, having McGonagal there as a cat could have been the beginning of the ancient magic protecting the Dursley's. She knew Harry was going to arrive there and she wanted to make sure that the DE's wouldn't be able to do anything to the house or the Dursley's before Harry got there. Just a thought or two. cantoramy From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 17:11:38 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 09:11:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Neville and Herbology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030124171138.74542.qmail@web21002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50507 On the subject of Neville's school abilities, while I don't have the post in front of me, somebody stated we only have Barty Crouch's word for it that Neville was very good at Herbology. Actually, I just remembered and looked it up. We also have the author's word for it. After finals in the 1st year it is stated that Neville managed to get by the finals with "his high marks in Herbology making up for his abysmal score in Potions." Just thought I'd mention it although it is certainly not important. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Fri Jan 24 17:31:46 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 17:31:46 -0000 Subject: SHIP: R/H question for Ebony (was Ron and Hermione do TOO banter!) In-Reply-To: <10974040103.20030124085328@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50508 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > > Hi, > > Friday, January 24, 2003, 7:11:29 AM, Amy wrote: > > > The argument has run thus in the past: > > > R/Her: I think Ron and Hermione are going to get together. Look at > > him! He's smitten. > > > H/Her: But Hermione doesn't reciprocate. > > > R/Her: That doesn't matter. > > Uh, no! > > Where did you get that idea? > > R/Hers have given reasons why they believe Hermione is > interested in Ron (can't be helped that H/Hers don't accept > those ). > I'm sure most H/H'ers would say 'right back atcha'. The common R/H position is that there is no canon proof of H/H (when interpreted correctly) regardless of the many examples proffered ;) Erica From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jan 24 17:32:59 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 17:32:59 -0000 Subject: LOON correction Re: Banter and other SHIP subjects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50509 I wrote: > On the way to Hogwarts, Harry meets seven males (Ron, Fred, > George, Draco, Crabbe, Goyle and Neville, not counting > Scabbers/Pettigrew) and three females (Molly, Hermione, and > Ginny) only two of whom are eligible. Ron meets exactly one, and she's looking for a toad. I left out Percy! How could I! Slam my ears in the oven door and bake them. And the trolley lady too, of course. But I don't think we're meant to consider her eligible. (Firmly stomps on plot-bunny about what Ron and the trolley lady did in the baggage compartment) Pippin From cindysphynx at comcast.net Fri Jan 24 17:35:05 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C. ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 17:35:05 -0000 Subject: Five OoP Predictions Polls -- Bragging Rights At Stake! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50510 The Mods, Elves and Poltergeists have put their heads together and dreamed up five new polls concerning what might happen in OoP. We haven't captured every brilliant theory ever discussed on the list (you all are so brilliant that this is simply not possible), but we've tried to include the most popular theories. To keep it challenging, we haven't included any prediction that is *too* heavily foreshadowed. We also haven't included the theories that are captured in other polls (such as the "Who Will Die?" poll). To keep it interesting, the polls are set to display your name with your prediction, and you may only make one prediction per poll. The polls will close on June 19, 2003, so when OoP is released, we will know who predicted what. You may make or change your prediction any time before the poll closes. I'll post the polls shortly. Cindy From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Fri Jan 24 17:35:56 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 24 Jan 2003 17:35:56 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1043429756.313.55487.w45@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50511 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the HPforGrownups group: BACKSTORY PREDICTIONS, PART 1: Which of the following do you believe will be established as canon in OoP? You may pick only one, and your name will be displayed with your selection. You may change your vote at any time while the poll is open. The poll will close on June 19, 2003 of course. o Snape Loved Lily o Arabella Figg Has Been Using Polyjuice Or Aging Potion o Avery Is The Fourth Man In The Pensieve o Florence Is Significant o Snape And Sirius Hate Each Other Over A Romantic Rivalry o Snape Is Perseus Evans o Lily Is Slytherin's Heir o MAGIC DISHWASHER (*Any* Aspect) o Missing 24 Hours Spent At Weasleys' o Missing 24 Hours Spent At Longbottoms o Dumbledore Is Animagus o None Of The Above To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/surveys?id=1029024 Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Fri Jan 24 17:36:20 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 24 Jan 2003 17:36:20 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1043429781.658.1591.w33@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50512 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the HPforGrownups group: BACKSTORY PREDICTIONS, PART 2: Which of the following do you believe will be established as canon in OoP? You may pick only one, and your name will be displayed with your selection. You may change your vote at any time while the poll is open. The poll will close on June 19, 2003 of course. o Lily's Death Was Part Of Spell That Protected Harry From AK o Neville Has A Memory Charm o Harry Is Heir Of Gryffindor o Snape Is A Vampire o Dudley Is A Wizard o Vernon Is A Wizard o Petunia Is A Witch o Filch Has Magical Ability o Mrs. Norris Is A Person o Missing Weasley Child o None of the above To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/surveys?id=1029025 Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Fri Jan 24 17:36:46 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 24 Jan 2003 17:36:46 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1043429806.165.66830.w1@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50513 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the HPforGrownups group: SHIPPING PREDICTIONS: Which of the following do you believe will be most firmly established as canon in OoP? You may pick only one, and your name will be displayed with your selection. You may change your vote at any time while the poll is open. The poll will close on June 19, 2003 of course. o Ron/Hermione o Harry/Hermione o Draco/Hermione o Harry/Ginny o Harry/Cho o Draco/Pansy o Neville/Ginny o Krum/Hermione o Ron/Fleur o Hagrid/Maxime o Farmer In The Dell (http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/romantic.html#dell) o Harry Gets A Romantic Kiss From Someone o No Clear Indicators Of Romance For Harry, Ron Or Hermione o None Of The Above To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/surveys?id=1029026 Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Fri Jan 24 17:37:02 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 24 Jan 2003 17:37:02 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1043429822.972.20458.w7@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50514 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the HPforGrownups group: FUTURE EVENTS PREDICTIONS, PART 1: Which of the following do you believe will be established as canon in OoP? You may pick only one, and your name will be displayed with your selection. You may change your vote at any time while the poll is open. The poll will close on June 19, 2003 of course. o Hagrid Meets His Mother o Dumbledore Gets Sacked o Fleur Is DADA Or Care Of Magical Creatures Teacher o New Character (Not Mrs. Figg) Is DADA Teacher o Sirius Is Exonerated o Pettigrew's Silver Hand Harms Lupin o Snape And Sirius Make Nice o Lupin Is Evil Or A Liability o Hagrid Makes A Crucial Mistake o DADA Teacher Is The Villain o The Return Of Norbert o Snape Kills Someone o A Witch Or Wizard Apparates Or Disapparates On Hogwarts Grounds o None Of The Above To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/surveys?id=1029027 Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Fri Jan 24 17:37:19 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 24 Jan 2003 17:37:19 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1043429839.211.71302.w51@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50515 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the HPforGrownups group: FUTURE EVENTS PREDICTIONS, PART 2: Which of the following do you believe will be established as canon in OoP? You may pick only one, and your name will be displayed with your selection. You may change your vote at any time while the poll is open. The poll will close on June 19, 2003 of course. o Harry Uses The Marauders' Map o Harry Is Saved By Pettigrew's Life Debt o Harry Visits Durmstrang or Beauxbatons o Harry Visits Azkaban o Harry Visits St. Mungos o House-Elf Uprising o Harry Is The Living Embodiment Of The Stone o No Direct Harry/Voldemort Confrontation o Ron Is On The Quidditch Team o Harry Is The Quidditch Captain o Ron Betrays Harry o Draco Is Redeemed o Ron Is A Seer o Return Of Worn Plot Device (Time Turner, New Illegal Animagus, Or Polyjuice) o None Of The Above To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/surveys?id=1029028 Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! From lupinesque at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 18:09:37 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 18:09:37 -0000 Subject: SHIP: necessity of Hermione liking Ron, or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <10974040103.20030124085328@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50516 I wrote: > > The argument has run thus in the past: > > > R/Her: I think Ron and Hermione are going to get together. Look at > > him! He's smitten. > > > H/Her: But Hermione doesn't reciprocate. > > > R/Her: That doesn't matter. Susanne wrote: > Uh, no! > > Where did you get that idea? Oh, geez, it's probably *somewhere* in the archives. In any case, there was one R/Her who felt that way, IIRC, namely myself. I'd say to R/Hers: go ahead and argue that Hermione likes Ron, but don't think that your argument stands or falls on that point. Ron's current interest is quite enough to make R/H a likely scenario. Amy Z From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Fri Jan 24 18:19:08 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 18:19:08 -0000 Subject: SHIP: R/H question for Ebony (was Ron and Hermione do TOO banter!) In-Reply-To: <10974040103.20030124085328@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50517 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > > Hi, > > Friday, January 24, 2003, 7:11:29 AM, Amy wrote: > > > The argument has run thus in the past: > > > R/Her: I think Ron and Hermione are going to get together. Look at > > him! He's smitten. > > > H/Her: But Hermione doesn't reciprocate. > > > R/Her: That doesn't matter. > > Uh, no! > > Where did you get that idea? > > R/Hers have given reasons why they believe Hermione is > interested in Ron (can't be helped that H/Hers don't accept > those ). > I'm sure most H/H'ers would say 'right back atcha'. The common R/H position is that there is no canon proof of H/H (when interpreted correctly) regardless of the many examples proffered ;) Erica From fausts at attglobal.net Fri Jan 24 18:54:25 2003 From: fausts at attglobal.net (anguaorc ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 18:54:25 -0000 Subject: Banter and other SHIP subjects (was TBAY/SHIP: Avast Maties! or: on the S.S. pumpkin pie) In-Reply-To: <00ca01c2c35f$2d50e1a0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50518 Penny wrote: > I also like the pattern that Derannimer picked up on. I think you're right that Hermione says something serious to Ron or Ron and Harry or to someone else, and Ron responds with a smart-ass comment. I too think Ron is funny (sometimes, but not always). But, he and Hermione are definitely *not* engaging in banter or verbal courtship of any kind, IMO. Me: It works both ways though. It *very* frequently happens that *Ron* says something serious to Hermione or to Hermione and Harry or to someone else, and *Hermione* responds with a smart-ass comment. It is a RECIPROCAL relationship. I would call it exchanging zingers. The return may not be immediate, as you and Derannimer seem to think is required for "bantering." The "zinged" one holds his or her fire until they find the right opportunity, and then zings in return. I had considered this as a subset of banter -- apparently you don't. Derannimer's definition -- "reciprocal, playful, witty conversation; not taunting, and not malicious teasing" -- differs from the definition *I* find in my handy Webster's -- "to speak or address in a witty or teasing manner." The *second* meaning of 'banter' listed in my dictionary -- "a goodnatured and usually witty and animated joking" -- is more like Derannimer's, though it *doesn't* say it has to be reciprocal. I think that ALL of my examples fit the first definition (yes, I thought that Ron was trying to be funny with "really break your leg" and "it'll be gone by next Tuesday" and "bless you") and SOME of them -- especially those from GoF -- fit the second definition as well. The exchanges between Ron and Hermione differ in a very important way from the exchanges between FredGeorge and Percy -- to the best of my memory, Percy *never* teases or zings Fred and George back. That is COMPLETELY different from the Ron/Hermione dynamic -- where Hermione frequently teases, taunts, and otherwise revenges herself on Ron. Don't you remember the scene where she is winding him up about Grims being all superstition? Don't you think she enjoys catching him out on Apparating inside Hogwarts, saying "fellytone," etc.? I do! She also enjoys giggling at him about spiders and scarlet women, just as he enjoys laughing at her McGonagall dementor. Penny said (previously): > If she intends Hermione to end up with Ron, she probably ought to cut > back a bit on the negative descriptive words she uses for their > interaction. If she continues to stress words > like "savagely," "impatiently," "sputtered > indignantly," "acidly," "coldly," "angrily," etc., she might give us > the impression that Ron and Hermione really don't interact very > positively during their "bantering." You are 100% right about one thing. Ron and Hermione's humorous exchanges have an *edge* to them. There are hurt feelings and danger there. They don't do bland, inoffensive "witty conversation" in the manner of Regis and Kathy Lee. Thank God! I'm sort of embarrassed to be so elementary here, but the process of writing a story requires that you create anxiety and tension in your reader through conflict, and then *release that tension* with a satisfying resolution. The more intense the tension, usually, the more satisfying is its resolution. JKR has *succeeded* in creating tension between Ron and Hermione. The reader is not happy with matters as they now stand. Some readers (me) think it needs to be resolved with reconciliation, understanding, and romance. Some readers (you) think it needs to be resolved with distance and reform (on Ron's part only, as far as I can tell). But, you know, the first kind of resolution makes a much better story. This kind of stuff -- bickering to love -- is a STAPLE of popular entertainment, and it's usually not "goodnatured." It works for buddy pictures -- think of the Eddie Murphy/Nick Nolte flick "48 Hours." Those two guys FOUGHT (literally, physically) and said awful, unforgivable things to each other. That made their eventual bonding MORE satisfying, not less. And it works for romance pictures -- think of the Humphrey Bogart/Katharine Hepburn flick "The African Queen." There was REAL tension there, real dislike, real conflict. That makes for a much more powerful and enjoyable movie experience than if they'd simply quipped like Monica and Chandler on "Friends" or something. JKR doesn't DO bland and inoffensive. She does Percy vs. Fred/George. She does, "You'll be next, Mudblood." She does dropping Neville out the window and burning a hole in Ron's tongue. And I like it that way. I like my edgy R/H. Penny: > Shifting to Angua on JKR's personal life: > > <<<< dip my toe into it. As best I can tell, we know of five > relationships in JKR's life which might influence her decisions: > > 1 - Her parents' marriage, which had "sparks" and arguments, and was > (mostly) happy.>>>>>>> > > Source please? On the "sparks" and "arguments"? Angua: I will have to return to the library to get you an exact quote. I am going from a very gushing JKR biography written for the children's market. It mentions something like, "Anne and Peter had their problems and disagreements, like any newly-married couple might, but one thing they *did* agree on was the birth of their first child, Joanne." My impression, reading through the soothing presentation meant for children, was that there were definite publicly-known problems early in their marriage -- not surprising, since they "fell at love at first sight" according to JKR, married quickly, and were only 19 and 20 when she was born. Penny: > On possible reasons why JKR might have chosen to not answer the question about Hermoine liking Ron with a more straight-forward answer, Angua conjectured: > > <<<<1 - She might have thought the questioner had not yet read GoF (since > she didn't know the obvious) or that some of the chat participants > hadn't, and didn't want to spoil it.>>>>>> > > Since this chat was sometime in 2001, isn't that a bit unlikely really? Me: It does seem ludicrous to us that anyone might not have read the book seven months after it came out, but of course millions of people *hadn't*. The paperback hadn't even come out. And JKR is usually very scrupulous about avoiding spoilers. In the "very platonic friends" interview, which took place in 2000, she was very, very careful when answering a question about Quirrell, and PS/SS had been out for three years already. So, no, I don't think it's unlikely. Angua: > <<< cagey she might be, she tells the truth. If she says the answer is > in GoF, she means that the answer is in GoF.>>>>>> Penny: > You might want to review some of the pre-GoF chats. We were all fairly certain from those chats that Harry would actually date Cho Chang ..... and well, we all know how that turned out. Angua again: I certainly wasn't! Nothing she has ever said gave me that impression. Perhaps I missed a chat -- please, give me a pointer to it. Penny: > Back to all this blushing, Angua said: > > <<< faded, before Harry got there. But if JKR had wanted to show > Hermione blushing, there was an opportunity for Harry to see it.>>>>>> > > At a distance. :--) Whatever. Fact is, we don't *know* if Hermione did or did not blush when Krum asked her to visit him in Bulgaria. I think you're reaching a bit on this one. Angua: Well, she was "too busy" to blush, wasn't she? ;) Penny: > On the blushing when Harry asks her if she didn't want to go to Hogsmeade with Ron, Angua concedes, partially: > > <<< subterfuge. I'm just saying -- when R/H happens and we look back for > foreshadowing, we will see that JKR didn't miss a beat. She put it > EVERYWHERE. Even when it's just a sly reference, and doesn't really > mean anything.>>>>>>>>> Penny: > If she's blushing because Harry is caught her up in subterfuge, as you concede (thanks!), then there is NO R/H foreshadowing. Her blush (and her intent) have nothing whatsoever to do with romantic interest in Ron. You conceded as much. Ahhh, Penny, Penny, Penny... Haven't you ever heard of SUBTEXT? The literal, surface meaning of the blush is that Hermione is embarrassed that Harry has caught her plotting to reunite him with Ron. The hidden, implied meaning, which the reader may be subconsciously influenced by, is that she secretly wants to go to Hogsmeade with Ron. The REALLY alert reader might connect this with an ongoing motif of Ron/Hermione/Hogsmeade references, including the "time of their lives" observation, the time Hermione doesn't want Harry to join them in PoA (because of the Sirius danger), and the time Hermione doesn't want Harry to join them in GoF (because of the egg), and -- voila -- a subtext of romantic desire! What, you thought you were the only ones allowed to do that? ;) Angua, who needs to go away and have a life From Ali at zymurgy.org Fri Jan 24 19:21:59 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 19:21:59 -0000 Subject: Gringotts Bank was Re: PoA question and Sirius In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030123141154.07213450@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50519 Kathryn Wolber wrote:- Also, Sirius said he had money taken from his Gringotts account, he didn't actually say he went to Gringotts and took out money. Maybe the order form had a place to put your vault number and the money was just removed for him and no one ever had to know it was Sirius Black's vault. James P Robinson replied:- > I do not think the goblins would care. Sirius is a convicted murderer, not a bank robber. Gringotts seems to me to be the equivalent of an offshore (or a truly international) bank. I do not believe Gringotts or the goblins that run it are under the authority of the MoM. Canon evidence: Sirius' account had been neither frozen not confiscated, nor apparently was any notification given to the MoM of activity in the account. The merchant need never of known whose money was being spent. Same as paying with cash or a money order. I say:- To me, Gringotts is equivalent to an average English clearing bank, except, that it deals in Galleons and is run by goblins - ok, that does make it rather different . English Banks owe their customers a Duty of Care and a Duty of Secrecy. They would only divulge information relating to their customers for a few very specific legal reasons, which do not include being a murderer per se. Sirius should expect to have the same rights with regards to the operation of his account as any other customer. Where things perhaps become a little more complex is how he was able to authorise Crookshanks to take money from his account. I had a similar problem over Mrs Weasley taking money for Harry as their appeared to be no written authorisation. Gringotts bank must allow cats to withdraw money in a way we Muggle Bankers would never do, and possession of a key must equate to authorisation.... Ali, formerly a bank manager From alexpie at aol.com Fri Jan 24 19:35:16 2003 From: alexpie at aol.com (alexpie at aol.com) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 14:35:16 EST Subject: Owl to Arabella Message-ID: <5b.34bb6347.2b62ef74@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50520 In a message dated 1/24/03 2:23:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > None of them noticed a large, tawny owl flutter past the > window." > >> > >>This may (probably has) been discussed, but where is this owl > going > >>that it flutters past a window on Privet Drive? Perhaps to > Arabella > >>Figg's house It has always been my assumption that, because the owl went past on the day Voldemort fell, and that there were celebrations going on all over the country, said owl was on its way to invite Arabella, or some other local witch/wizard to a party--although I'm sure the invitation didn't ask that Arabella bring any chocolate cake! Whoa! It just occurred to me--what about the significance of the stale chocolate cake that she served to Harry? Since, in the Wizarding World, chocolate seems to have even more extraordinary emotional healing/soothing powers than it does in this, is JKR implying that AF hasn't used *her* powers in a while? That they have grown stale, too? If it wasn't meant to be significant, surely JKR would have had her serve gingerbread or some other baked thingy! Ba of Ravenclaw [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From oppen at mycns.net Fri Jan 24 19:43:40 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 13:43:40 -0600 Subject: Harry, Ron and Hermione Message-ID: <011b01c2c3e0$e61dd2c0$15570043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 50521 One thing that a lot of commentators on the Harry-Ron-Hermione situation forget, or so it seems to me, is that _these are teenagers,_ and fairly well-depicted teenagers at that. At the end of _Goblet of Fire,_ they're fifteen or right thereabouts...and at fifteen, girls _are,_ as a rule, a couple of years or so ahead of boys in their development. Harry and Ron are not wild about the dance, or dating in general, because they're still a little young for such things, and are genuinely afraid of embarrassment and/or rejection, with its concomitant loss of face. Meanwhile, the girls, even those younger than they are, are all excited, giggling to each other about what they're going to wear and who's been invited by whom. This all tallies closely with my own memories of that age---when I was fifteen or so, most of my female contemporaries were dating while my male contemporaries were still not too interested in the concept. As for conflict between Ron and Hermione, I think that a lot of it is just that they come from _very_ different backgrounds---Ron's a scion of the Wizard World down to his toenails (as is Draco Malfoy) while Hermione's heavily influenced by her Muggle background. What Ron sees as normal and right (the situation of house-elves, or the prejudice against giants or werewolves) shocks Hermione, and, I daresay, vice-versa---what _would_ shock a lifelong Wizard World inhabitant with little knowledge of Muggle culture about Muggle life in contemporary Britain? I can imagine Lucius Malfoy drawling: "Well, they let _Muggles_ run around loose, and _everybody_ knows Muggles Have Cooties, don't they, dahling?" Very possibly Ron would be quite shocked at how "leniently" criminals are dealt with in contemporary Muggle Britain, or the hysterical campaigns against "prejudice" that have grown up in my own lifetime. And...if Hermione didn't like Ron, would his opinions matter so much to her? Would she care if, forex, he thought all house-elves should be slaves, sitting around the cabin at night and singing spirituals? I "hae me doots" that Hermione gives two hoots about Draco Malfoy's opinions currently, except to note that "if Draco Malfoy likes this, there has _got_ to be something wrong with it!" From manawydan at ntlworld.com Fri Jan 24 18:52:13 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 18:52:13 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Squibs/muggles References: <1043365028.4009.97216.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001201c2c3d9$b59d4e20$5f4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 50523 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:46:24 EST From: eloiseherisson at aol.com Subject: Petunia as Squib >Sorry. I think this is a case of movie contamination. In the same scene in >the book, (Ron belching up slugs) it is Ron himself who tells Hermione that >most wizards are now half-bloods. I have always taken this to mean just that >most wizards are now of mixed blood, since, technically, someone could be >half-blood if the offspring of a witch and wizard both of half-blood. No, for some reason I had that line down for Hagrid rather than Ron - rechecking, you are of course right. I'd be fascinated to have a geneticist's "take" on the "wizard" gene... >It's a matter of viewpoint, IMHO. From the WW's standpoint, they might well >be some kind of Squib (though I doubt if it is as much a matter of shame as >it would be for the offsrping of a witch and wizard to be a Squib). From the >Muggle POV, no such concept exists, except for those of us privileged enough >to have an insight into the WW. We've not yet had any insights into how mixed families reconcile living in two worlds simultaneously (most particularly how the Ministry deals with inconvenient, nosy, or hostile Muggle relatives - maybe a Don't-Notice-Me Charm!) Mixed families do seem to me to be the key source of cultural change in WW. Magic seems to develop in line with Muggle technology (the Hogwarts Express looks like a steam train for example, irrespective of its true method of propulsion). I don't think it's as easy to replicate something magical using technology as it is to do the reverse. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From natmichaels at hotmail.com Fri Jan 24 19:19:19 2003 From: natmichaels at hotmail.com (lorien_eve ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 19:19:19 -0000 Subject: Snape as a Vampire/Hagrid and Mrs. Norris Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50524 Hey everybody. I've been a lurker for a while now, and this is my firt post, so PLEASE don't flame me for asking stupid questions or questions that have already been discussed. I remember a month or so ago there was a large discussion about Snape being a vampire. I've been re-reading and came across several passages talking about Quirrell and the garlic. The book attributes it to Quirrell's fear of a vampire he met years ago in Romania. But after knowing how the book ends, I thought of something else. Snape is suspicious of Quirrell and constantly watching him. Maybe Snape is the vampire and the garlic is to keep him away. Was this discussed before? Sorry to bring up an old topic, but it just now came to me. Another thing I noticed was Hagrid's quote about Mrs. Norris following him everywhere when he goes up to the school. It's on page 141 in my book, when Harry and Ron are in Hagrid's hut and Harry reads about the break in at Gringott's. Anyway, I was wondering WHY Mrs. Norris follows Hagrid around. I just know there's something about her that's strange--whether she's an animagus or something else. Any thoughts on this? Lorien_Eve From manawydan at ntlworld.com Fri Jan 24 19:19:57 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 19:19:57 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Governors and endowments References: <1043389049.2786.73529.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001d01c2c3dd$9558aac0$5f4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 50525 > Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 03:27:00 -0000 > From: "Steve " > Subject: Re: Harry's Fan; Dumbledore, Snape and Fudge > > bboy_mn: > Who appoints the Board of Governors? This is my theory; and I do have > a lot of them. We don't know where Hogwarts gets it's money. There has > been no indication that there is tuition to Hogwarts. So what are > possible sources of money? A grant from the Founding Fathers and > Mothers which has been carefully managed over the course of 1,000 > years and has compounded into a tidy sum. Next donations from Alumni, > Philanthropist, businesses, and other benefactors. (and possibly taxes) We haven't at any point heard Cornelius Fudge talking about money though he seems like the sort of person who in the event of a disagreement would remind Dumbledore who pays his wages (I'm trying to remember any passing references to taxes but can't bring any to mind offhand) so I think this is probably a sound theory. Another possibility. We can infer that no one can Transform things into money. We can also be sure that the wizard population has grown over the years in line with the muggle one. So where has the extra money come from? I wonder if opening a vault at Gringotts involves the vault itself having a spell literally to make your money grow, at a small rate of interest. Why (for example) otherwise would the Weasleys have a vault, given that they don't have much money to throw around? So that if Hogarts had a sizeable endowment in the bank, then conceivably the interest on that gold would be sufficient to make the School independent for its normal running costs without needing to do large amounts of fundraising. {snippage) > As far as Fudge, even if he doesn't have direct authority over the > school, his position as Minister gives him a great deal of weight > should he ever petition the Governors over an issue like Dumbledore's > competency. Also, the Governor's are really on the outside of the > school. They probably get more information about how the school is run Hogwarts also seems to be at least partially autonomous of the Ministry - for example, Dumbledore has the power to exclude the Dementors. It also seems to be him who is responsible for appointing the new Professors. Fudge may not even have a place on the Board himself - Ministers seem to be appointed from within the bureaucracy rather than from within what we in Wales call the crachach... Perhaps at some future date we will hear more about the other 11 Governors and what their powers are (a suggestion perhaps for what would be interesting in the forthcoming volume...) Consistent with the story, given the various bits of mayhem that have occurred over the previous academic years. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From siskiou at earthlink.net Fri Jan 24 20:18:49 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 12:18:49 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Banter and other SHIP subjects (was TBAY/SHIP: Avast Maties! or: on the S.S. pumpkin pie) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7286362599.20030124121849@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 50526 Hi, Friday, January 24, 2003, 11:46:37 AM, bugaloo37 wrote: > As also is her desire for Harry to solve the egg riddle is > NOT actually her wish for Harry to survive the tournament but yet > another reason for her to be alone with Ron. I just wanted to make > sure I understood you correctly. I might be mistaken, but I thought that the "subtext interpretation" you are responding to was written very much "tongue in cheek" :) As in, if you reaaally want to go deep into the subtext you *could* read it that way. Not to be taken too seriously? ;) -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From dicentra at xmission.com Fri Jan 24 20:32:36 2003 From: dicentra at xmission.com (dicentra63 ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 20:32:36 -0000 Subject: Gringotts Bank was Re: PoA question and Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50527 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali " wrote: > Gringotts bank must allow cats to withdraw > money in a way we Muggle Bankers would never do, and possession of a > key must equate to authorisation.... Crookshanks never went to Gringotts. All he did was take Sirius's letter of authorization to the Owl Post in Hogsmeade. The owl took the letter to Gringotts. Someone there withdrew the money from vault 711, purchased the Firebolt, and sent it back to Hogwarts. Don't know who that someone was. Maybe Sirius sent a separate letter to the Quidditch supplies shop. --Dicentra From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Fri Jan 24 20:38:04 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 15:38:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's the factual/fictional divide got to do with it? It's ego. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030124203804.83580.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50528 --- "dicentra63 " wrote: > --- In > Maybe it's just me, but sometimes when I hear > polemic against a > character I like, I don't become defensive because I > see the character > as "real." I get defensive because I feel that my > skill as a reader > is being challenged. I react as if the writer of > the polemic were > saying, "Check me out, I figured out the hidden > truth while you fell > into the snare." Or worse: "If you were > sensitive/smart/perceptive > enough, you'd have seen CharacterX for what s/he > really is." Hear! Hear! Though it can feel worse. "If you were moral enough, you'd have seen CharacterX for what s/he really is." > I'll have to admit, Elk, that the twins thing got to > me that way. My > reaction to your "the twins are bullies" posts was > to think that if > *I* didn't see them as bullies, I must be "aiding > and abetting" them > in some way. That I'm one of those kids who stands > by and watches > bullies beat up on other kids and cheers for the > bullies. That I'm > snickering up my sleeve like Crabbe and Goyle. I felt very similar when Elkins first launched an attack on Moody. You see, if Moody did have "rogue cop characteristics" and I hadn't seen them, what did that say about me? Did it say that I was one of those people who didn't care about our liberties very much? You see, I care very much about our liberties, but I have to admit that you wouldn't automatically conclude that if you knew my family's political background. So, if you want to needle me, that's a good place to start. But I kept my mouth shut, and Elkins only found out months and months later, during the Twins discussion, that I had taken offense at first. Which was a good thing, since I pulled my wits together and realized that it was silly to take offense. Another reason for taking offense is good old-fashioned reader identification - You can get me riled up every time by going after Ron for his jealousy. Not going after Ron in general. I do that myself. No, implying that his jealousy of Harry is a big problem. When you do that, I feel that my schoolkid self is being accused of terrible things. Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From crussell at arkansas.net Fri Jan 24 20:47:34 2003 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37 ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 20:47:34 -0000 Subject: Banter and other SHIP subjects (was TBAY/SHIP: Avast Maties! or: on the S.S. pumpkin pie) In-Reply-To: <7286362599.20030124121849@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50529 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > > > I might be mistaken, but I thought that the "subtext > interpretation" you are responding to was written very much > "tongue in cheek" :) > > As in, if you reaaally want to go deep into the subtext you *could* > read it that way. > > Not to be taken too seriously? ;) > Thanks for the clarification. I have removed the post to which you are responding having reached the same conclusion. I apologize to all concerned for jumping the gun. bugaloo37 From trinity61us at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 10:49:57 2003 From: trinity61us at yahoo.com (alex fox) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 02:49:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Petunia as squib In-Reply-To: <004301c2c315$d981fee0$5f4d6551@f3b7j4> Message-ID: <20030124104957.71553.qmail@web14910.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50530 manawydan's post scared me! Does this mean that possibly Lilly Evens-Potter could be of mixed blood? According to Hagrid, this is very common, which means that Dudley, of all people, could have some magical tendencies!! A frightening thought indeed! manawydan wrote: Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:58:46 -0800 (PST) From: Maria Kirilenko Subject: Re: Petunia as Squib >I think that, however alike their magical capabilities, squibs and Muggles are not the same thing. > >The definition of a Muggle, I believe, is someone who has no magical blood in him and cannot do >magic. A Squib cannot do magic either, but he has magical blood. >Again, Lily was called a Muggle-born witch, which made her parents Muggles. That way, >Petunia can't be a squib - she is a Muggle like her parents. > >But I think that since Lily is a witch, there must be something in her family that made her so, >which in its turn can give Petunia and/or Dudley and/or Dudley's future offspring a better chance >of being magical too, than somebody from a completely wizarding family. I tend to think that the difference between muggle and squib is cultural rather than genetic - because a squib is brought up in wizard world, they know the score and can survive there far better than if a muggle were to be dropped in the deep end. Though there's a question here about mixed marriages. Hagrid says at one point that almost all wizards marry muggles, otherwise they would have died out. Now I also think that Hagrid is prone to hyperbole so I'd take that remark with a pinch of salt. But it does strongly suggest that the wizard gene is widespread in muggle world and that possible wizard children could pop up anywhere. But is the non-magical child of a mixed marriage a squib (because of the magical parent) or a muggle (because of the non-magical one)? cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Ali at zymurgy.org Fri Jan 24 21:12:45 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 21:12:45 -0000 Subject: Gringotts Bank was Re: PoA question and Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50531 I wrote:- >>> Gringotts bank must allow cats to withdraw money in a way we Muggle Bankers would never do, and possession of a key must equate to authorisation....>>> Dicentra corrected:- >>> Crookshanks never went to Gringotts. All he did was take Sirius's letter of authorization to the Owl Post in Hogsmeade. The owl took the letter to Gringotts. Someone there withdrew the money from vault 711, purchased the Firebolt, and sent it back to Hogwarts. Don't know who that someone was. Maybe Sirius sent a separate letter to the Quidditch supplies shop.<<< Oh dear, does that mean that I'll have to give up my much cherished LOON badge? That serves me right for being flippant. Back to canon though, I see Sirius' authorisation letter as a kind-of cross between a postal order and a cheque. It does seem to indicate that the WW does deal in representative money as well as the real stuff - gold. Ali From tigerfan41 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 20:29:42 2003 From: tigerfan41 at yahoo.com (Darrell Harris) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 12:29:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vernon and smelting sticks (Vernon from a wizarding family?) Message-ID: <20030124202942.27525.qmail@web10001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50532 I'm quite sure in PS/SS Vernon is very put off by all the strangely dressed people in town the day before Harry appears at his doorstep. If as suggested he was of a wizarding family he should have grown up around this. We also get a good look at his thoughts on the strangeness of Lilly's world. I can't see him having any closer ties than through his sister-in-law. "Darrell" From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 21:16:07 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 13:16:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's the factual/fictional divide got to do with it? It's ego. In-Reply-To: <20030124203804.83580.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030124211607.64300.qmail@web21008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50533 Eileen wrote: > I'll have to admit, Elk, that the twins thing got to > me that way. My > reaction to your "the twins are bullies" posts was > to think that if > *I* didn't see them as bullies, I must be "aiding > and abetting" them > in some way. That I'm one of those kids who stands > by and watches > bullies beat up on other kids and cheers for the > bullies. That I'm > snickering up my sleeve like Crabbe and Goyle. I agree and this is as good an example of that as any. A bully is somebody who picks on people and pushes them around. Mind, you the Twins are quite capable of being mean to somebody they felt deserves it. (A certain overweight Dursley child comes to mind) but generally while they LOVE to play practical jokes on people and stuff they are doing so not to be powerful and humiliate anybody but in good spirit and jest. I think they would prefer to laugh with people then at them. Also, there are small indications that these are two people who would in fact be the first to stand up to bullies and protect the weak and helpless. In a tight spot, while I wouldn't want a bully on my side (their usually cowards at heart) I wouldn't mind having the Twins with me anytime. And yes, it is too easy to read too much into things sometimes. Also, not everything that is done or written about in the Harry Potter series even makes total sense. As outstanding as the series is, you cannot write 4 books like that and not make mistakes or logical errers. Plus, it is difficult to assume things you don't know. Mad Eye Moody's behavior as an auror is an example. While he obviously could be ruthless, it was stated in book 4 that he always tried to bring them in alive when possible so there is no reason to assume he was a rogue. Huggs Becky From pennylin at swbell.net Fri Jan 24 22:21:19 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 16:21:19 -0600 Subject: Banter and other SHIP subjects References: Message-ID: <026101c2c3f6$eb8b20d0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 50534 Hi -- Pippin, commenting on my belief that R/H and/or H/G is not foreshadowed in PS/SS, said: <<<>>> Actually, I've never heard the term, so, no, I'm not familiar with it. If it's a screen-writing thing, it comports with my notion that "bickering couples falling in love" is a very Hollywood thing. :--) It may well be that JKR intended it to be a "cute meet" and that she intends R/H and/or H/G and maybe she'll confirm that years from now. I just personally don't see it though. We're just down to arguing about authorial intent, which is pointless at this juncture. <<<>>>>>>>> She could be, if, like me, she's never *heard* of the term or the convention. IMO, it's very possible she didn't intend that effect at all. <<<>>>>>> Perhaps I haven't been clear enough. Or maybe we just disagree. :--) I'm not saying that JKR would marry them off at age 17/18 in the epilogue. She might well let them be early 20s or what have you. But, unless they only marry after they've dated some other people, the message would still be that a first-time romance between teens ("first love") can develop into a successful marriage. I'm not saying that's a *bad* message, in and of itself. I just don't think it's very realistic these days....... and my impression from JKR's chats and interviews is that she wants to convey a certain amount of realism about the characters' adolescent experiences. She doesn't want to be so realistic that she's forced to address illegal drug use or teen pregnancy (and presumably not teen sex either) ...... but I also just don't think she's going to depict two pairs of teenagers who never date anyone else seriously and end up getting married in their late teens or early 20s. It sounds too sugar-coated to me. Then again, maybe that's just me. I said: >The only thing I know is that Neil Murray bears a rather striking resemblance to what an adult Harry Potter might look like. < Pippin quipped: <<>>>>>>>> No, I'm just suggesting that JKR does seem to have a thing for dark-haired men. Look how many times they pop up in the Potterverse. Sirius, Hagrid, Snape, James Potter, Harry ...... I feel like I'm missing some. Anyway, I just grinned when I saw the picture of him as it did strike me (and a good many others) that he bears a striking resemblance to what an adult Harry might look like. Which is.....er........*interesting* when you consider that Hermione is her self-professed surrogate in the series. And, no, you misunderstand. I don't think that Ron is despicable or evil, nor do I think that Hermione couldn't or shouldn't "forgive" him for tactless remarks. I'm just suggesting that her *reaction* to him is anger over his sexist remarks .....not anger because he's failed to ask her to the Ball. <<<<>>>>>>> Well, no, I don't enjoy sarcasm (either using it or receiving it so much). I don't, however, think that Hermione does either. Who is she sarcastic with *besides* Ron? I really don't think she is a sarcastic person. I think Ron is, and I think he likely gets a charge out of it. But, I don't think she is, hence I don't think she's enjoying her interactions with Ron as much as the R/H'ers think she is. <<<>>>>>>>> Well, it's always struck me that they didn't say anything at all to each other actually. I've never considered that there was a conversation that morning, before Harry saw them. If there was, I wonder why they would be "oddly formal" with each other afterwards? Can you give me the potential scenario there? <<<>>>>>>>>> I'm totally not following you here, so I'm unable to say whether you've got the "H/H line" down or not. Did Hermione swallow her pride about what on Boxing Day? As I said, I suspect she and Ron didn't discuss their fight at all. :::: looks puzzled:::::: Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amani at charter.net Fri Jan 24 23:16:01 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 18:16:01 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Did Harry speak to the Basilisk? References: <9ED43CFA-2FBA-11D7-8323-000393681E04@lulu.com> Message-ID: <00f101c2c3fe$8fc11360$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50535 Me: "Slytherin, according to the legend, sealed the Chamber of Secrets so that none would be able to open it until his own true heir arrived at the school. The **heir alone** would be able to unseal the Chamber of Secrets, unleash the horror within, and use it to purge the school of all who were unworthy to study magic." (US paperback p. 151, emphasis mine) So it stands to reason that /only/ the Heir of Slytherin could control the basilisk, whether another person was a parselmouth or not. Mike: But by that logic, Harry shouldn't have been able to unseal the Chamber either. Me: Absolutely correct. My logic is, indeed, faulty. Sorry about that! --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sjd914 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 22:00:00 2003 From: sjd914 at yahoo.com (sjd914 ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 22:00:00 -0000 Subject: Did Harry speak to the Basilisk? In-Reply-To: <9ED43CFA-2FBA-11D7-8323-000393681E04@lulu.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50536 Taryn: "Slytherin, according to the legend, sealed the Chamber of Secrets so that none would be able to open it until his own true heir arrived at the school. The **heir alone** would be able to unseal the Chamber of Secrets, unleash the horror within, and use it to purge the school of all who were unworthy to study magic." (US paperback p. 151, emphasis mine) So it stands to reason that /only/ the Heir of Slytherin could control the basilisk, whether another person was a parselmouth or not. Mike: But by that logic, Harry shouldn't have been able to unseal the Chamber either. Me: I think her point was that Harry is the Heir of Slytherin. IMO I think that the legend said that only his own heir could open it is because only Slytherins's heirs were Parselmouths. Also Riddle did say in the CoS movie that Harry's Parseltongue wouldn't work and that it only listened to him, though that may have simply been the fact that the Basilisk already knew Riddle. From sjd914 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 23:07:47 2003 From: sjd914 at yahoo.com (sjd914 ) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 23:07:47 -0000 Subject: Gringotts Bank was Re: PoA question and Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50537 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali " wrote: Ali: Gringotts bank must allow cats to withdraw money in a way we Muggle Bankers would never do, and possession of a key must equate to authorisation.... Dicentra corrected:- Crookshanks never went to Gringotts. All he did was take Sirius's letter of authorization to the Owl Post in Hogsmeade. The owl took the letter to Gringotts. Someone there withdrew the money from vault 711, purchased the Firebolt, and sent it back to Hogwarts. Don't know who that someone was. Maybe Sirius sent a separate letter to the Quidditch supplies shop. Ali: Oh dear, does that mean that I'll have to give up my much cherished LOON badge? That serves me right for being flippant. Back to canon though, I see Sirius' authorisation letter as a kind- of cross between a postal order and a cheque. It does seem to indicate that the WW does deal in representative money as well as the real stuff - gold. Me: You guys forgot that Sirius also said that he used Harry's name to buy the broom. I'm guessing that the way Owl Order works is that you send an owl to the company saying what item you want, your vault number, your key, and you address. Since he sent it in Harry's name the adress was probably Hogwarts, Gryffindor Table, 3rd seat from the High Table, Left Side etc. Hermione also used Owl Order to buy Harry his Brookstick Servicing Kit. Her order seems to confirm the method of using Owl Order since she couldnt have visited Gringott's, or gonnten anyone else to while she was in France. - Sajid Who now has his own LOON badge From obby at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Jan 24 23:51:47 2003 From: obby at blueyonder.co.uk (Richard Thorp) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 23:51:47 +0000 Subject: A rumour someone mentioned to me Message-ID: <66286840765.20030124235147@blueyonder.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 50538 Hi all :) Sorry if this has come up before, but I couldn't find mention in the archives... Some people were telling me today that JKR confirmed in an interview that Ron or Hermione would die in Book 7. Has anyone else heard this? Or got a link to a site with the interview on it... -Rich Hoping he doesn't look too silly by posting about a rumour. From heidit at netbox.com Fri Jan 24 23:59:42 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 18:59:42 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A rumour someone mentioned to me In-Reply-To: <66286840765.20030124235147@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <059901c2c404$aa18a3d0$0301a8c0@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 50539 > Real-To: Richard Thorp > > Hi all :) > > Sorry if this has come up before, but I couldn't find mention > in the archives... Some people were telling me today that JKR > confirmed in an interview that Ron or Hermione would die in > Book 7. Has anyone else heard this? Or got a link to a site > with the interview on it... I'm on staff at The Leaky Cauldron and I can say for sure that she has never said anything this concrete in an interview. Ever. Heidi, posting a one liner, but hoping it's ok From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 25 00:44:48 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 00:44:48 -0000 Subject: Gringotts Bank was Re: PoA question and Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50540 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sjd914 " > You guys forgot that Sirius also said that he used Harry's name to > buy the broom. I'm guessing that the way Owl Order works is that you > send an owl to the company saying what item you want, your vault > number, your key, and you address. Which raises the question of how "Harry Potter" was able to authorize a withdrawal of funds from Sirius Black's vault. I' mean, there must be some sort of checking of ownership, otherwise what's to stop an unscrupulous person of sending a letter with a made-up name and a random vault number and using other people's money to buy stuff for themselves? Maybe when Sirius became Harry's godfather, he set up a joint account for the two of them? That might also explain why the money didn't get seized when Sirius was arrested. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From jferer at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 01:03:31 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 01:03:31 -0000 Subject: SHIPping For the Long Haul In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50541 Amy summarized:"The argument has run thus in the past: R/Her: I think Ron and Hermione are going to get together. Look at him! He's smitten. H/Her: But Hermione doesn't reciprocate. R/Her: That doesn't matter." Susanna objected:"Where did you get that idea?" Amy:"In any case, there was one R/Her who felt that way, IIRC, namely myself. I'd say to R/Hers: go ahead and argue that Hermione likes Ron, but don't think that your argument stands or falls on that point. Ron's current interest is quite enough to make R/H a likely scenario." That line of thinking calls up this question for R/Hers: are you R/Hers for a date or two or three, or even a whole school year, or are you in it for the long haul? How do you define R/H victory? It's important, because some of us may be debating very different things. This H/Her believes that Ron and Hermione will probably date, maybe all year some year. I know Ron likes Hermione, and Hermione is at least his friend, so I can cheerfully concede all the looks and nods and winks and punctuation marks we've been throwing around the last week or two. But I'm not worried. My horse (stag?)has the staying power to be there at the finish line. I don't believe I need any nods or winks, because I can see Harry and Hermione's bond getting stronger all the time. How do you feel when you send your loved ones out into the world and they make you proud? How does shared experience work in bringing you and your loved ones (spouse, child, whatever)closer together? Can we give our love only to those we trust? Right now Harry is attracted to Cho. He hopes to date her, and we really don't know how well he knows her. She's the only person he's shown that kind of interest in, as far as we've seen. He's shown no interest at all in Ginny (and I feel for her for it). Hermione? He's shown no explicit interest, but he *has* seen her in a different light, and that's very likely to resurface anytime. When it does, she's likely to be about a foot away from him. It's not important to me that his interest in her hasn't shifted into second gear, because they both have work to do. I also think Ron and Hermione are wildly unsuited in the long run. All the details have been hacked to death lately, and I'm absolutely in the camp of people wary of overprocessing information. For now, I'm convinced that their attitudes and beliefs are far apart. Could this change? Sure. I hope that Ron gets a lot for himself next year: a prime role in the Trio (as Harry's loyal and brave wingman, for instance), triumphs of his own (on the Quidditch team, perhaps) and a new birth of consciousness about others. Ebony's not the only one who wants to see that. Ron would be a new man, and we'd have this discussion all over again; but Harry and Hermione's duality would still be there. Jim Ferer From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sat Jan 25 01:20:56 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 01:20:56 -0000 Subject: McGonagall the snoop (was: Owl to Arabella?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50542 cantoramy wrote: > I don't think that an owl wasn't making a delivery as much as > scouting out the Dursley's house so he could report back to the > other owls. Everyone must have known that Harry was being taken > there, and since nobody had probably even heard of the Dursley's > before this, there was certainly major curiosity about them. I am just curious why you think everyone knows where Harry is going? Dumbledore is surprised to find McGonagall there. McGonagall. His deputy mistress now. Seems to me he trust her (ESE!McGonagall arguments are being ignored right now). So why, if Dumbledore, who this responsibility fell upon, did not tell McGonagall or anyone else it seems, would everyone know? I know Hagrid is a bit of a blabber mouth, but he couldn't of told *that* many people. McGonagall was on his way out that morning, and she went straight to the Dursleys. I guess given how fast the rumors about the Potters flew around and how vague they were; I do not see the name Dursley or Privet Drive coming up. They of course could, but frankly, if they were being passed so freely, then why was no one else there to see the boy? The boy that drove away the most evil wizard in a century. Why just send an owl? Owls are just as obvious, aren't they? They scream trying to be conspicuous why being obvious. Or are you saying the owls themselves are curious about Privet Drive? Maybe the owls want to know what the fuss what about. They seem to understand English well just based on Hedwig's reations with Harry. Maybe the owl was just being overly curious based on a rumor they carried. cantoramy wrote: > Also, having McGonagal there as a cat could have been the beginning > of the ancient magic protecting the Dursley's. She knew Harry was > going to arrive there and she wanted to make sure that the DE's > wouldn't be able to do anything to the house or the Dursley's before > Harry got there. I don't think so, because of what I said before. Dumbledore, who set up the ancient magic, did not tell McGonagall to be there. She was there to confront Dumbledore and find the truth of the situation. Though if I was a dead eater, I would be a little frightened of the sight of her...that is if I knew she was an animagus cat. Otherwise, the DE would not know. Though, it is nice that she can report to Dumbledore that no one bothered the house during the day...or at least that is what JKR wants us to think. Hehe, sorry I am in a silly mood tonight. Melody From heidit at netbox.com Sat Jan 25 01:30:00 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 20:30:00 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A rumour someone mentioned to me Message-ID: <05aa01c2c411$47b88b80$0301a8c0@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 50543 Replying to myself - the usual disclaimers apply :) I think I just learned where the rumor came from: http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/interviews/rowling.html The snip below comes from the above link - and guys, it's FICTION. In other words, it's a made up interview and nothing in it is real. Well, other than the implication of the book's release date being in June and the spelling of the character names. Q: JOAN.COX3 at YAHOO.COM - hey can you tell me anything that happens in OOTP? I can't wait until june!!!!!! A: Ron Weasley dies on page 513. ************************* Again, I repeat that the above bit is FICTION. Made up. Out of whole cloth. Wouldn't even host it on Riddikulus.org. Heidi > -----Original Message----- > From: heiditandy [mailto:heiditandy at netbox.com] > Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 7:00 PM > To: 'HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com' > Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] A rumour someone mentioned to me > > > > > Real-To: Richard Thorp > > > > Hi all :) > > > > Sorry if this has come up before, but I couldn't find mention > > in the archives... Some people were telling me today that JKR > > confirmed in an interview that Ron or Hermione would die in > > Book 7. Has anyone else heard this? Or got a link to a site > > with the interview on it... > > I'm on staff at The Leaky Cauldron and I can say for sure > that she has never said anything this concrete in an interview. Ever. > > > Heidi, posting a one liner, but hoping it's ok > From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 01:31:21 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 17:31:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Gringotts Bank was Re: PoA question and Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030125013121.81550.qmail@web40508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50544 "marinafrants " wrote: Which raises the question of how "Harry Potter" was able to authorize a withdrawal of funds from Sirius Black's vault. I' mean, there must be some sort of checking of ownership, otherwise what's to stop an unscrupulous person of sending a letter with a made-up name and a random vault number and using other people's money to buy stuff for themselves? Maybe when Sirius became Harry's godfather, he set up a joint account for the two of them? That might also explain why the money didn't get seized when Sirius was arrested. Me: Sirius writes in his letter to Harry at the end of PoA: "Crookshanks took the order to the Owl Office for me. I used your name but told them to take the gold from my own Gringotts vault." So I guess one can do this. The joint account idea is actually a very interesting one, but I think Sirius' letter pretty much contradicts it. I have another question, though. I seem to remember reading somewhere that in the UK version the number of Sirius' vault is actually mentioned. Is this true? Or maybe JKR just told the number in an interview? Regards, Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Zarleycat at aol.com Sat Jan 25 01:59:59 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001 ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 01:59:59 -0000 Subject: Bank Accounts (was Gringotts Bank) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50545 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marinafrants " wrote: > Maybe when Sirius became Harry's godfather, he set up a joint > account for the two of them? That might also explain why the money > didn't get seized when Sirius was arrested. But, why would the money in Sirius' account be seized? Does this happen in the UK - you're convicted of a heinous crime, you go to prison for life and the government is entitled to take your assets? And, if that's not the law in the UK, why would people think the MoM has authority to take Sirius' money out of Gringotts, whether to keep it or to give it to Sirius' next-of-kin? I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure this doesn't happen in the US. I'd think that Sirius' accounts and real property would simply sit around until he died. If he, or any convict, died in prison and he had left a will behind, I'd think the property and money would go to whoever was specified in the will. And, if he died intestate, with no next-of-kin, then the MoM could do what they wished with the assets. Which doesn't really get to the question of how money is transferred from the account of a fugitive to a broom merchant. I suppose if everything is written out correctly on an order form, with the correct vault indicated, and signed by the owner of the vault, then, perhaps this is then considered a binding agreement. All of the required legalities are covered, and the Gringott's goblins don't care that the person requesting this payment is a wanted criminal. He's dotted his i's and crossed his t's and the signiture matches the signature on file for that vault, so, to the Goblins, all the requirements are met. On the other hand, if the MoM thinks that Sirius is a complete nut- case, perhaps it never occurred to them to monitor any activity in his bank account after his escape from prison. They might very well have thought that he was too busy ducking Dementors and trying to get into Hogwarts to consider that he might spend some time shopping by mail... Marianne From kristen at sanderson-web.com Sat Jan 25 02:00:56 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (gkjpo ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 02:00:56 -0000 Subject: McGonagall the snoop (was: Owl to Arabella?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50546 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Melody " wrote: > cantoramy wrote: > > I don't think that an owl wasn't making a delivery as much as > > scouting out the Dursley's house so he could report back to the > > other owls. Everyone must have known that Harry was being taken > > there, and since nobody had probably even heard of the Dursley's > > before this, there was certainly major curiosity about them. > > I am just curious why you think everyone knows where Harry is going? > Dumbledore is surprised to find McGonagall there. McGonagall. His > deputy mistress now. Seems to me he trust her (ESE!McGonagall > arguments are being ignored right now). So why, if Dumbledore, who > this responsibility fell upon, did not tell McGonagall or anyone else > it seems, would everyone know? I know Hagrid is a bit of a blabber > mouth, but he couldn't of told *that* many people. McGonagall was on > his way out that morning, and she went straight to the Dursleys. > I don't find it so strange that McGonagall was not informed. Even in GoF, she really seems to have no clue what is really going on in the end. She was sent from the room specifically by Dumbledore to keep her from the knowledge of Sirius. In general, she appears to be out of the loop. In general for this thread, why would anyone suppose that the owl was going to Arabella's house? If Arabella is part of Harry's protection - as has been implied, she would not have moved to her house near Privet Drive until after Harry was there (or right at that time). Therefore, she would not have been there to receive an owl. Maybe this is where the "lost 24 hours" went - Dumbledore had to pay cash for and set up Arabella in her new house to watch over Harry! :) I think, however, that from this (the owls swooping around), JKR would have us believe that there are a lot more wizarding/partial wizarding families out there and they are intermingled with the muggle population. My question is this, though. If wizards and muggles are largely intermingled (implied since Hogsmeade is the only fully wizard town in GB), how come none of the wizards knew how to dress like muggles at the World Cup? :) Kristen who has been on vacation for the last week and isn't even trying to go all the way back to catch up! From snorth at ucla.edu Sat Jan 25 02:16:59 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 18:16:59 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Bank Accounts (was Gringotts Bank) References: Message-ID: <000b01c2c417$da491630$d3447442@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 50547 > I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure this doesn't happen in the US. > I'd think that Sirius' accounts and real property would simply sit > around until he died. If he, or any convict, died in prison and he > had left a will behind, I'd think the property and money would go to > whoever was specified in the will. And, if he died intestate, with no > next-of-kin, then the MoM could do what they wished with the assets. I'm not a lawyer either, but I think that if you're convicted of "racketerring activity," your assets can be siezed under RICO ("RACKETEER INFLUENCED AND CORRUPT ORGANIZATIONS") laws, which are mainly in place to fight organized crime, but I believe the US government has a tendency to be, uh, flexible with this law. From what I've seen, "racketeering activity" is somewhat broad: Any act or threat involving murder, kidnapping, gambling, arson, robbery, bribery, extortion, dealing in obscene matter, or dealing in a controlled substance or listed chemical (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act), which is chargeable under State law and punishable by imprisonment for more than one year. Maybe someone who IS a lawyer could help us out. Of course, this is only in the US. I've not the slighest idea if it's similar in the UK. But under US law, I could easily see Sirius's assets being seized (he was imprisoned without "trial"), but really, who knows what the MoM is thinking. It's probably not as simple. Or, maybe it's too simple; the vault can only be opened with the key, so it would be impossible to seize anyone's funds unless you managed to get their key. *sigh* I suppose JKR only knows for sure. -Scott (so if I missed the ball with those RICO laws, remember, I'm a math major; if you need help with your computer or a calculus problem, I'll be sure to chime in with my expert opinion ;) From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 25 02:17:18 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 02:17:18 -0000 Subject: Bank Accounts (was Gringotts Bank) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50548 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001 " wrote: > Which doesn't really get to the question of how money is transferred > from the account of a fugitive to a broom merchant. I suppose if > everything is written out correctly on an order form, with the > correct vault indicated, and signed by the owner of the vault, then, > perhaps this is then considered a binding agreement. But if Sirius' letter is to be believed, he used Harry's name to do the transaction, which means it wouldn't be his signature on the order form, it would be Harry's (and a fake one, at that). That's why I'm theorizing about this joint account business. I can easily believe that the Gringott's goblins wouldn't bat an eye at a letter from Sirius Black saying "transfer some money from my vault to this broom merchant and tell them to send a Firebolt to Harry Potter," but a letter from Harry Potter saying "transfer some money from Sirius Black's vault to this broom merchant and tell them to send me a Firebolt" is a different matter, unless Harry is authorized to access the vault to begin with. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From debmclain at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 02:47:18 2003 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 02:47:18 -0000 Subject: Muggle Questions Was: McGonagall the snoop In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50549 wrote: > I think, however, that from this (the owls swooping around), JKR > would have us believe that there are a lot more wizarding/partial > wizarding families out there and they are intermingled with the > muggle population. My question is this, though. If wizards and > muggles are largely intermingled (implied since Hogsmeade is the only > fully wizard town in GB), how come none of the wizards knew how to > dress like muggles at the World Cup? :) Kristen - I completely agree!! This is something that has been bothering me for quite some time. I'm sure there is something in the archives, but apparently, my searching skills are nil there. If wizards live around muggles, why don't they know it's "policemen" and not "please-men"? Why is Arthur Weasley the head of the Dept. of Misuse of Muggle Artifacts, and not a, sorry, mudblood? Is it that undesireable a job, that even they don't want it? Yes, I understand that the Weasley's live way out of town (and don't even associate with other wizards considering they didn't even know where the Diggory's lived, nor if there were any other wizards in the area), but not all do. My impression was that the Diggory's lived in town. And don't forget Arabella and the other "Harry Protectors" live in his area. I would assume some, if not all, still practice magic. If wizards/witches couldn't do magic at home because muggles might see it, wouldn't Hogsmeade be a huge city? Now an ignorant question...Hermione mentions that magic and electricity don't work together. I'm assuming she means just at Hogwarts, right? Otherwise, wouldn't muggles find it weird that some neighbors only use candles? -Debbie Happy that somebody brought up a question she's been pondering.. From siskiou at earthlink.net Sat Jan 25 02:47:51 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 18:47:51 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIPping For the Long Haul In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <88109707991.20030124184751@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 50550 Hi, Friday, January 24, 2003, 5:03:31 PM, Jim wrote: > are you > R/Hers for a date or two or three, or even a whole school year, or are > you in it for the long haul? Long haul, definitely! And I don't expect any dating next book and think JKR will milk the "boy/girl" stuff for all the humor she can get out of it for a while to come (like I've mentioned before). It'll all be very much in the background and moving very slowly, probably intermixed with misunderstandings, people thinking the other doesn't like them back, feeling they are not good enough for the other... > How do you define R/H victory? Well, I'm not quite that seriously into the shipping that I'd call it a war ;) I'm on this list to have fun, not to fight . > Ron would be a new man, This reminded me of something I've been seeing frequently, namely that readers are waiting for certain characters to have some kind of breakthrough (Neville and Ron, for example). I like Ron now, rough edges and all, and what if Neville or Ron never find out about any "special" talent to set them apart? Are they then not worthy to be liked? Can Ron only stay friends with Harry and Hermione (or be loved by Hermione) if he becomes more talented? I'm probably being silly, but in RL there are lots of people who never find that special talent. What does it say to them, to read about characters they identify with because of their "normalcy", who then suddenly become "better". It's almost like Eloise with her "off-center" nose. Ron is seen as unworthy to be part of the trio in a way, or be liked by Hermione, because he doesn't show any special magical strength or logical thinking. I'm not sure if I'm getting across what I'm trying to say :} > and we'd have this > discussion all over again; but Harry and Hermione's duality would > still be there. As I said before, while I see Harry and Hermione as great friends, I don't see this duality/symbiosis in their interactions. They seem just as different to me personality and talent-wise, as Ron and Harry, or Hermione and Ron. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 02:53:31 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 02:53:31 -0000 Subject: PoA, Sirius, Gringotts, and YahooMort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50551 My appologies if you have already read this post but it appears that YahooMort has assign two different post to the same post number (50455). If I search for my name, I find it listed, but if I look in the list of posts, another post is using this number, and my post isn't listed in the thread for the original post. Originally posted - Jan 23 @ 8:32pm. bboy_mn --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kermit13166 " wrote: > I have a question that is bugging me that perhaps someone can help me > with. In PoA, Sirius tells Harry that he was the one who sent the > Firebolt....10 yrs worth of gifts etc... My question is two > fold...One-how did he get to Gringotts to get his money out without > being seen and second Sirius said he gave Crookshanks the > order....Would no one find it odd that a cat delivers such an order? > Just wondering.... > > Kermit bboy_mn: Here is a link to the last time we had this discussion. I think that time pretty much every favored theory was presented. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/36990 My theory is the Goblins have a sense when something in 'fishy'; sort of like a truth detector. If you send a note that says 'pay this person this much', the Goblins can instinctively determine if it is valid or fraudulent. Next, Goblins take their job and money very seriously. It's their job to guard people's money, not run around catching criminals for the Ministry. Taking their job very seriously as they do, they are no inclined to give out private information about anyone and their money. The guard people's privacy as well as their money. So they got the note, which said something like the money was taken out in Harry's name. Since Sirius is Harry's Godfather, that may give Harry some degree of access to Sirius's account. So they have a sign note from a valid account holder that they determine to be a valid authorized request for the transfer of funds. That's their job, so they do it. The Ministry can catch their own criminals. Let's remember too that Molly Weasley also got into Harry's account without his direct expressed stated or written permission, but the Golbin's 'truth detect' determined that Molly request for money was valid and gave her the money. I think one of the reason the Goblins are in charge of the banks is that they have this intuitive sense of when something is shadey or forged or invalid, and they vigorously guard people's privacy and money with equal enthusiasm. As far as Crookshanks; first I think Crookshanks delivered an order form with authorization for payment to the Owl Post Office, not to Gringotts. Quidditch Supplies turned the authorization over the the bank for payment. The Goblins determined it was genuine and made the payment. Crookshanks didn't go to the bank. But then that's just my opinion. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 03:35:48 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 03:35:48 -0000 Subject: Where the Malfoys Live In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50552 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve " > wrote: > > > Also, more of a side note, I believe that Diagon Alley is a city > > within a city. ... I think Malfoy's house is in the rich section > > of Magical London, in what I call the Magic City ... > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Annemehr replied: > > You have mentioned this before, as I recall, and my thoughts on it > have finally crystallized in my mind to where I can reply (but if > I make any mistakes about RL fact, any Brits reading this should > correct me!) There are two points to make. > > 1) The Malfoys are said to live in a Manor (...) . ... a manor > is a large house on a large tract of land owned by a member of the > gentry (or nobility or upper class) in Britain (or, this is the way > things used to be, under the class system). ... Like the Riddle > House with Little Hangleton. ...edited... > -end this part- bboy_mn: Well my dictionary (American Heritage) would seem to agree with you. I alway took Manor to be interchangable with Mansion both of which would have a significant track to land associated with them. There are Mansion nieghborhoods in Beverly Hill, CA and Brentwood, CA. Despite being 'in town' they still, but city standards, have a large plot of land creating a very spacious and private back yard; grounds, gardens, pool, tennis court, etc.... I am reminded of several mansions here in Minneapolis, MN. When they were built, they were country masion each with a large tract of land extending behind them and roughly one or two mansions per block; of course the 'blocks' weren't actually there at the time, just open lighly wooded area. Today, those country estates are practically downtown; they are in the heart of the city. I'm not disputing your point in any way, just trying to refine my view of it. Relative to Malfoy Manor, we must remember we are dealing with a very old family with a land estate that may be many centuries old. So, Malfoy Manor which we now assume is on Malfoy Estate, could have orginally been in a somewhat rural or suburban part of the Magic City. As the centuries progress, the Magic City grew and most Manors/mansions were build near them until it tranformed from an isolated estate to a rich nieghborhood of mansions. Each could still have anywhere from 2 to maybe 8 city block of land (maybe more) depending on how rich you are. I think in a city, a house with a mansion and 8 or more city blocks of land surrounded by a high stone fence would come close to some definition of a manor. I would be more inclined to call what you are referring to a country estate; country estate implying not blocks of land, but acres of land. What I'm trying to do is see if I can reconcile this so that both of us are right. Although, one new thought does come to me, when Malfoy brags about flying, Harry said all Draco's stories ended with him narrowly avoiding crashing into a helicopter. I doubt helicopter do much flying in Magic Space, so that would lend weight to your theory. This whole Magic Space/Normal Space thing is very confusing. I think I'm going to start a separate post on that, and see if anyone can enlighten me. I do like your idea about Malfoys living like the Riddles. If I recall, the Riddle kept their distance from the locals. So I have to conclude by saying that you have come very very close to convincing me. bboy_mn > 2) But the upper class, besides having homes on their ancestral > lands, also had houses in London, for the purposes of socializing, > ...edited... > > Annemehr bboy_mn: This could be right. If I recall a lot of wealthy people had 'townhouses' that would easly qualify as mansions themselves. Is the anyone who is knowledgable in Brit-speak or British history that could tell us, if it's possible to have something that would qualify as a manor in London? bboy_mn From urbana at charter.net Sat Jan 25 04:25:28 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne R Urbanski) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 22:25:28 -0600 Subject: FILCH FILK (be gentle, it's my first one) Message-ID: <4.2.2.20030124222015.00b12100@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 50553 Well, all filkers have to start somewhere and sometime. So here's my first completed filk. It ain't much, but it's all I've got. (Note to Gail ... I'm kind of stuck in neutral on the first one I started... grrrrr....:-[ FILK: Willie Nelson?s Scruffy English Brother (to the tune of Mrs. Brown, You?ve Got a Lovely Daughter, by Herman?s Hermits) Willie Nelson?s scruffy English brother, That?s who Argus Filch looks like to me -- He?s a squi-ib And so he hates to see How well the kids at Hogwarts do at wizardry Filch will often pick on ickle firsties, Likes to scare them witless late at night But his mean-ness Comes back to haunt him when He?s being pestered by old Peeves the Poltergeist Skulking about, sneaking up on students, Filch freaks them out, and they think he?s ...so rude Filch has got a cat named Mrs. Norris Once he found her stony, petrified He as-sumed That Harry was to blame And was aghast when the bad deed Harry denied Skulking about, sneaking up on students, Filch freaks them out, and they think he?s ...so rude Willie Nelson?s scruffy English brother (Filch looks li-ike...) Willie Nelson?s scruffy English brother (with a Kneazle) Willie Nelson's scruffy English brother (.... fade out....) *** Anne U (ducking) "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."? - Albus Dumbledore, in "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets" "Anyone could be the one to change your life" -- Monte Montgomery http://www.montemontgomery.com From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 04:44:29 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 04:44:29 -0000 Subject: Gringotts Bank was Re: PoA question and Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50554 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marinafrants " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sjd914 " > You guys forgot that Sirius also said that he used Harry's name > to buy the broom. ...edited... > > Which raises the question of how "Harry Potter" was able to > authorize a withdrawal of funds from Sirius Black's vault. > ...edited... > > Maybe when Sirius became Harry's godfather, he set up a joint > account ... > > Marina > rusalka at i... bboy_mn: Let me take a shot a answering a couple of post in this subthread. Example: I buy the neighbor kid a bicycle. I fill out an order form in this name (his name and address; the recipient of the bike) then I give them my credit card number and authorized them to charge it to my account. That's exactly what Sirius did. He filled out an order form in Harry's name (Harry gets the broom) and authorized Quality Quidditch Supplies to bill his bank account. Crookshanks took the order to the Owl Post Office and mailed it. The Quidditch story took the authorization to the bank, the bank compared signatures (or whatever) to verify that is was valid authorization, and transferred the fund to the Quidditch store. Once transfer was confirm, the mailed out the broom. End of that story. Now, why wasn't Sirius's money confiscated by the ministry? The government can only sieze your assets if those assets have been involved in a crime or if they are ill-gotten gains; money obtained illegally. Then, how can Harry use Sirius's money? Well, in a sense, they are related. Sirius is Harry's godfather, to some extent the makes them legally family. Sirius is his guardian, that makes Harry his dependant, and that's close enough to family for the tax man. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 04:46:08 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 04:46:08 -0000 Subject: Magic Space/Muggle Space??? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50555 In the 'Owl to Arabella' and the 'Where Malfoys Live' threads, I speculated on the size and nature of the Magic City. However, this does raise some new quesions. I assume that Diagon Alley is in what I call Magic Space; a physically world that is separate from the normal world which I will call Muggle Space. But I have to wonder, how big is this Magic Space and where and how does it end? We know that the Magic City extends beyond Diagon Alley since there are other magic places we have heard about; Knockturn Alley, the Ministry office, St. Mungos Hospital, etc.... Having said that, I have to wonder how big it is and what do you see when you reach the edge of it's boundaries? When you stand at the edge of that magic space is there a big cosmic wall of shimmering ether that can not be penitrated? Does it just gradually fade into Muggle Space? Are there assorted entrance/exit point that server to define it's boundaries? Is the border just a row of shops and/or houses between which and beyond which there are no more streets, this row of building acting as a wall around the perimeter of that Magic Space? A lot of questions, but very few answers. I guess it depends on whether you consider the area behind the Leaky Cauldron to be a physical space that in muggle London is just a gap between the Leaky Cauldron and the building behind it which is bigger on the inside/the magic side than it is on the outside/the muggle side, or if you are stepping through a gateway into another world. If it is a magical box (small outside/big inside) then it would seem to be bounded. When you reach the edge, whatever that edge may be, you can't go any farther. The alternate, where the Leaky Cauldron is a gateway into a new world or new dimension, would mean that it would be relatively boundless. Within normal cosmic limits it would go on forever. Or... something in between? How big do you picture the Magic City? Do you measure it in a certain number of city blocks or are we dealing with a certain number of square miles? Bounded by 10 or 20 blocks on each side, or bounded by 10 or 20 miles on each side? My vision is that it is substantial in size. It is a city or more like a town, not just a few blocks creating a small business neighborhood. Let's look at another example; Hogwarts and the Forbidden Forest. We all know that Hogwarts is an enchanted space that to some extent is bounded or surrounded by the real physical world. But what about the forest? Is that an enchanted forest that is massive in size, and exists in magic space? It would seem to have to be very big to hold all the amazing creatures that is does hold. So how do you hide a forest of that massive size from the muggles? If it is in Magic Space, then it would be inaccessable and beyond the preception of muggles. Think of all the beasts, unicorn, hypogriffs, Fluffy, a huge giant spide colony, centaurs, and probably a dragon or two. If this is in physical reality, how do you keep creatures from straying beyond it's boundaries? I've always had this vision that this was an enchanted forest. You could hop on your broom and fly your little heart out over the forest and not have to worry about muggle detection because muggles can't see the forest. It doesn't exist in their preceived reality. Obviously, in the end, the answer is that it's fiction, but I'm interested in whether anyone else has thought about this. Even if you don't want to tackle the magic space/muggle space issue, how big do you see the magic city being? Just curious. bboy_mn From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 05:19:37 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 21:19:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magic Space/Muggle Space??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030125051937.35826.qmail@web40512.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50556 "Steve " wrote: In the 'Owl to Arabella' and the 'Where Malfoys Live' threads, I speculated on the size and nature of the Magic City. However, this does raise some new quesions. I assume that Diagon Alley is in what I call Magic Space; a physically world that is separate from the normal world which I will call Muggle Space. But I have to wonder, how big is this Magic Space and where and how does it end? We know that the Magic City extends beyond Diagon Alley since there are other magic places we have heard about; Knockturn Alley, the Ministry office, St. Mungos Hospital, etc.... Having said that, I have to wonder how big it is and what do you see when you reach the edge of it's boundaries? When you stand at the edge of that magic space is there a big cosmic wall of shimmering ether that can not be penitrated? Does it just gradually fade into Muggle Space? Are there assorted entrance/exit point that server to define it's boundaries? Is the border just a row of shops and/or houses between which and beyond which there are no more streets, this row of building acting as a wall around the perimeter of that Magic Space? Now me: Maybe neither. What if the Wizard space just keeps repeating itself? Like, if you'd walked through Diagon allley, then Knockturn Alley, and then further on, you'd end up in Diagon Alley where you started. But maybe the Wizard City stretches on in the Wizard Space as far as it does (maybe not further than Diagon Aleey and Knockturn Alley), and has dead ends all around it, as in "streets surrounded by buildings from every side," with a couple of entrance points into it. I, however, seriously doubt that there is a vast amount of space there, as somebody (Mr. Weasley IIRC) in GoF mentioned that if would be impossible to cram all wanting to visit the QWC into Diagon alley. So even if there are some other streets in Wizarding London, there probably aren't too many. My two Knuts, Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 05:25:58 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 05:25:58 -0000 Subject: Muggle Questions Was: McGonagall the snoop In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50557 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Debbie " wrote: > wrote: > > ... If wizards and muggles are largely intermingled ..., how > > come none of the wizards knew how to dress like muggles at the > >World Cup? :) > > Kristen - I completely agree!! This is something that has been > bothering me for quite some time. I'm sure there is something in the > archives, but apparently, my searching skills are nil there. > > If wizards live around muggles, why don't they know it's "policemen" > and not "please-men"? Why is Arthur Weasley the head of the Dept. of > Misuse of Muggle Artifacts, and not a, sorry, mudblood? Is it that > undesireable a job, that even they don't want it? > > ...edited... > > Now an ignorant question...Hermione mentions that magic and > electricity don't work together. I'm assuming she means just at > Hogwarts, right? Otherwise, wouldn't muggles find it weird that some > neighbors only use candles? > > -Debbie bboy_mn: Actually this has been touch on recently. To read more search this club for the word 'chinatown'. I doubt that it would have occurred to you to search for that word. Most of these post were written by me, and I try (I really will) and give you a short version. I think wizards treat the muggle world as a foreign country and a foreign country that they are not particularly comfortable with. Think about Chinatown in any city (Los Angeles, London), here is a small enclave of China right in London. Many of the Chinese who live in or near Chinatown never learn to speak English. They essentually live in this little pocket of comfortable China are rare venture beyond it, and when they do go into the non-Chinese world of London, they do so with great discomfort. They aren't familiar with the language, the customs, the way people dress, and act. It's a confusing frightening place for them, and they enter it only as a last resort. I have met Korean who have lived in L.A. for decades. And while they are successful businessmen, and own all the modern conveniences; nice house, fancy car, modern applances, there English is very marginal. They shop at the Korean grocery store, only do business with other Koreans, and only eat at Korean restaurants. The live in a little pocket of Korea within the boudaries of L.A. (250,000 Koreans in L.A.; bigger than Minneapolis.) This is how I see wizards, people living in a foreign country that they are not very comfortable with. They don't understand that language, they don't understand the customs, routine things are done in strange and unusually ways. I'm sure, the muggle world seems like a very dangerous place to them. Plus, wizards don't have to leave the house to travel. They just pop (apparate or Floo) directly to Diagon Alley to eat, socialize, and shop. Diagon Alley is their 'Chinatown'; their comfortable escape from a strange and foreign world. Just a thought. bboy_mn From annemehr at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 07:22:06 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 07:22:06 -0000 Subject: Where the Malfoys Live In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50558 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve " wrote: > > Annemehr replied: > > > > You have mentioned this before, as I recall, and my thoughts on it > > have finally crystallized in my mind to where I can reply (but if > > I make any mistakes about RL fact, any Brits reading this should > > correct me!) There are two points to make. > > > > 1) The Malfoys are said to live in a Manor (...) . ... a manor > > is a large house on a large tract of land owned by a member of the > > gentry (or nobility or upper class) in Britain (or, this is the way > > things used to be, under the class system). ... Like the Riddle > > House with Little Hangleton. ...edited... > > -end this part- > > bboy_mn: > Well my dictionary (American Heritage) would seem to agree with you. I > alway took Manor to be interchangable with Mansion both of which would > have a significant track to land associated with them. There are > Mansion nieghborhoods in Beverly Hill, CA and Brentwood, CA. Despite > being 'in town' they still, but city standards, have a large plot of > land creating a very spacious and private back yard; grounds, gardens, > pool, tennis court, etc.... Annemehr: I found what I was thinking of in my old Webster's New World Dictionary (copyright 1968): manor: 1)in England, a) in feudal times, the district over which a lord held authority, subject to the jurisdiction of his court; land belonging to a lord and partly divided among his peasants in return for rent of some kind, or land reserved by him for his own use. b) more recently, a landed estate, usually with a main residence, the owner of which still holds some feudal rights over the land. 2) in the United States during colonial times, a district granted as a manor and leased to tenants at a set rental. 3) [obs.], a) a mansion. b) the main residence on an estate. c) a lord's mansion with its land. So, I think in Britain, "a manor" would imply a *very* large country estate. I see it as more a technical (British) term for that kind of estate, rather than just a very large house (as in a "mansion"). ALTHOUGH -- just a bit further down the page -- mansion: 1) formerly, a manor house; hence, 2) a large, imposing house; stately residence. [snip out unrelated senses of the word] A bit confusing, no? > Relative to Malfoy Manor, we must remember we are dealing with > a very old family with a land estate that may be many centuries old. > So, Malfoy Manor which we now assume is on Malfoy Estate, could have > orginally been in a somewhat rural or suburban part of the Magic City. > As the centuries progress, the Magic City grew [...]... I think in a city, a house with a > mansion and 8 or more city blocks of land surrounded by a high stone > fence would come close to some definition of a manor. > > I would be more inclined to call what you are referring to a country > estate; country estate implying not blocks of land, but acres of land. > Yes, the "country estate" is what I had in mind when I read that the Malfoys lived in a "manor". Of whatever manors there may have been inside modern London, I don't imagine there would be much left, not even in Diagon Alley, since space is so much at a premium there. > What I'm trying to do is see if I can reconcile this so that both of > us are right. Dang. I thought I did that already with my "second house in town" idea. ;) > > > 2) But the upper class, besides having homes on their ancestral > > lands, also had houses in London, for the purposes of socializing, > > ...edited... > > > > Annemehr > > > bboy_mn: > This could be right. If I recall a lot of wealthy people had > 'townhouses' that would easly qualify as mansions themselves. > > Is the anyone who is knowledgable in Brit-speak or British history > that could tell us, if it's possible to have something that would > qualify as a manor in London? > > bboy_mn Yeah, where *are* you guys? All reading the SHIPping debates? Annemehr who will not comment on SHIPping until after finishing book 7, probably... From skelkins at attbi.com Sat Jan 25 07:31:15 2003 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 07:31:15 -0000 Subject: Neville in Herbology (was sig. of Neville) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50559 Tanya wrote: > It seems to be universally agreed upon that Neville excels in > Herbology. However, the only canon I remember seeing that supports > this statement is that which comes directly from Crouch/Moody's > mouth. If I remember correctly, Professor Sprout herself never > mentions Neville's skills at all, not even once. Nor do I remember > Rowling ever writing any scenes in Herbology that even hints > towards Neville excelling in it. Kathy offered: > At the end of the book (page 307 in the scholastic paperback > edition) Harry and the rest of the students get their exam results. > JKR writes that "Even Neville scraped through, his good Herbology > mark making up for his abysmal Potions one." This suggests that > Neville has a history of success in Herbology and is clearly his > best subject. We also get reinforcement of this idea even before Crouch/Moody's tete-a-tete with Neville in GoF. When Neville raises his hand in DADA class to volunteer the name of the Cruciatus Curse, we are told that: "The only class in which Neville usually volunteered information was Herbology which was easily his best subject." So no. I don't think that Crouch Jr. was making it up. Besides which, his plan wouldn't have been a very good one, would it, if Neville hadn't been genuinely interested in Herbology and at least reasonably competent in it? Only an interested student would have bothered to do out-of-class reading voluntarily, and Crouch's plan depended on Neville having read an entire book -- or at least far enough into it so that he would possess the information about gillyweed which Crouch hoped that he would later pass on to Harry. And indeed, when Harry runs into Neville in the dormitory after his tea with Crouch/Moody, Neville seems to be quite absorbed in that reading. So I'd say that he's both genuinely interested in and reasonably skilled with Herbology. "Excelling" I don't know about. But it does seem to me that he's probably pretty good at it. Kathy also wrote: > IMO, I believe that Neville's skills in Herbology may come > into play later on in some future plot or sub-plot. It wouldn't surprise me. JKR does seem to have been setting it up for some time now -- since the first volume, in fact. And I agree with you that Neville is likely to take a more center stage in future volumes. Some people on this list have suggested in the past that Dumbledore designed the obstacles to the Philosopher's Stone very consciously as a test not only for Harry, but also for his friends. Some of them have cited the Devil's Snare obstacle as evidence for the supposition that Dumbledore fully expected Neville to be accompanying the Trio on their quest when he designed the barriers. The Devil's Snare, they claim, was tailored to Neville's particular talent, just as McGonagall's chess set was tailored to Ron's. I'm not sure if I really believe that one, myself. But it's a neat theory. Star Opal listed a number of ways in which Neville is brave. Mainly a "me too" on those, except to add one that she left out: Neville is an adolescent boy who wears fuzzy slippers. Without shame. That's courage. Star Opal also wrote: > So that's why I'm particularly amazed by Neville when Harry > ditches him to go to Hogsmeade (PoA ch 14). He never brings > it up to Harry. Never says anything to Harry, we don't even > see him again till ch 16 IIRC. Yes, and that's another way in which Neville has real courage. He puts up with an awful lot of abuse without complaining. He never reproaches Hermione for casting that Body-Bind on him at the end of PS/SS. He doesn't go squealing to a teacher when Draco harasses him in the corridors. He never objects to being punished (and rather harshly, too) for leaving his list of passwords lying around where they could be found in PoA, even though as we later discover, he did *not* leave them lying around where just anyone could find them. They were stolen from off of his bedside table by Crookshanks. Neville does not whinge. He also refrains from pressing his company on Harry, Ron and Hermione, even though he seems to have no other friends. The only place we ever see him pressing his company on Harry is in that scene in PoA, right before Harry ditches him to go to Hogsmeade, and one could argue that the only reason that he is willing to do so there is because he has reason to believe that Harry, whose *real* friends are all away and who has no one else to talk to, might welcome a bit of companionship. Stoicism isn't a very flashy sort of courage, perhaps. But it is courage. James wrote: > I am not sure Neville's mother is even named, except as > Mrs. Longbottom or Frank's wife or some similar formula. Nope, she has no name. She wasn't an auror, either, as surely if she had been, then the defendents in the Pensieve scene would have been standing accused of abducting and torturing *two* aurors, rather than an auror "and his wife?" Rather irritating, that, isn't it? Yet another nameless martyr mother, taking her place alongside the unnamed Mrs. Crouch and Tom Riddle's equally unnamed mother. Elkins, who is really just so very *tired* of JKR's faceless martyred maternal figures From tcyhunt at earthlink.net Sat Jan 25 01:14:50 2003 From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (tcyhunt ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 01:14:50 -0000 Subject: Was Neville a witness? (was: neville longbottom) In-Reply-To: <20030120165808.72705.qmail@web14510.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50560 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, snapesrighthand wrote: > Opal: > I think Neville will become more important later > on, either as a casualty or > as an asset. But yes he will have an impact. > > Alex: Yes, I agree. Rowling gave us important > information about Neville. She kept dropping > hints... like... paraphrase... Harry would have > heard that Nevilles usual snores were not heard. > Alex: I have often wondered if Neville was > tortured to? Why is he so bad with magic? Did > he witness his parents being tortured? Is he > scarred and that is why he can not do magic well? > Did they put some kind of memory curse on him > dimming his mind so he would not remember > something? > > just my 2 cents > alexandra now me: Alex, sorry it took me so long to respond...IMHO, Neville was witness to his parent's torture. In the US hardcover edition of GoF, in chapter 21 (The House-Elf Liberation Front) on page 366 - Harry has just returned to the common room for the 'surprise party' after he completed the first task. Several of his housemates try to talk him into opening the golden egg. He does and they hear the hideous noise. Fred yelled for him to shut the egg, Seamus said it sounded like a banshee and then... "It was someone being tortured!" said Neville, who had gone very white and spilled sausage rolls all over the floor. "You're going to have to fight the Cruciatus Curse!" This sounds like first hand knowledge to me. Tcy (who's humble opinion is worth just what you've paid for it :-) From dixiehnsnluver at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 02:58:03 2003 From: dixiehnsnluver at yahoo.com (Katie ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 02:58:03 -0000 Subject: Point System- How do they know? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50561 Okay, I've looked through the information sites, and though I've found comments on how the points are quite low considering the projected amount of students that attend Hogwarts, I haven't found any speculation as to how the points are added up. Is there a spell that keeps count of every point addition and subtraction that goes on within the school boundaries or do the teachers have the responsibility of keeping up with what the give and take? Does anyone have a point of view on this? Also, if in my perusal of the FAQ I missed the answer to this pondering, kindly point me in the direction of the post and I will leave without bothering you further. :) KtDiD From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 07:13:04 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 07:13:04 -0000 Subject: "Riddle" in "GRINDELWALD." Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50562 Has anyone noticed that the name "Riddle" can be found in the name "Grindelwald," with the letters A-G-L-N-W remaining? I toyed with the name "Grindelwald," and the phrases "I am Grindelwald," and "I am Lord Grindelwald" but didn't find anything really interesting - I can't make it match any character or name we've met so far. At any rate, I don't honestly think she'd use the same pattern twice. But it is odd, all the same. I bet that we still have more to learn about this guy Grindelwald. -Tom From toberead at excite.com Sat Jan 25 04:13:55 2003 From: toberead at excite.com (aquariajade ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 04:13:55 -0000 Subject: The difference between the expelliarmus and accio spells Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50563 Hello: Was just listening to PoA and at the point when Lupin comes into the shrieking shack, he says "Expelliarmus" to get the wands from Harry and Ron (I think those two were the ones holding ones, but it could have been H and H). When Harry needs his Firebolt for the first task in GoF, he says, "Accio Firebolt". My understanding was that the accio spell was to draw a particular thing *to you*, and the expelliarmus spell was to forcibly release something from intended *person's hand*, but with NO INTENDED final destination. But, IIRC, every time a wizard needs to get someone's wand, s/he uses expelliarmus. Would it not be more useful to use accio wand(s)? If expelliarmus is used, it does not specify where the wand would end up and it could fly anywhere, causing the wizard casting the spell to need to run about to catch it. I do not have the books to quote specifics, so this is just my memory and what I just heard listening to PoA. Thoughts? Best, Jade From mysmacek at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 02:12:09 2003 From: mysmacek at yahoo.com (mysmacek ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 02:12:09 -0000 Subject: Random ideas Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50564 Hi all, I am sorry if these ideas are dead horses here, but here they are anyway. I did not want to spam you with more than one email :) - it seems to me, that during POA, there has to be about 10 first years in each house - certainly less than 20. The canon for that is that for R&H to miss the sorting ceremony, it would have to be a really short one, since their calling off by McGonnagall does not seem like a long one - and don't forget that the ceremony did not start when they left. - since Riddle was the last heir to Slytherin (canon is in CS - but the statement there could be false), maybe Harry is reciprocally the last heir to Godric Gryffindor? A nice light vs. dark showdown to come :-) - could Dumbledore be Godric Gryffindor himself? Maybe he reborns himself like a phoenix does and we just see him on his burning day . (and it does not contradict the previous theory, since he can be killed whenever usefull for the story). After all, Fawkes could have easily belonged to Godric himself, given phoenixs' lifespan Regards, Mysmacek From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sat Jan 25 08:31:19 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 03:31:19 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] The difference between the expelliarmus and accio spells Message-ID: <149.8885277.2b63a557@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50565 In a message dated 1/25/2003 3:14:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, toberead at excite.com writes: > My understanding was that the accio spell was to draw a particular > thing *to you*, and the expelliarmus spell was to forcibly release > something from intended *person's hand*, but with NO INTENDED final > destination. > > But, IIRC, every time a wizard needs to get someone's wand, s/he uses > expelliarmus. Would it not be more useful to use accio wand(s)? If > expelliarmus is used, it does not specify where the wand would end up > and it could fly anywhere, causing the wizard casting the spell to > need to run about to catch it. Expelliarmus is not used to get a wand FROM a wizard, but to get it AWAY FROM him/her. If you break it down in the Latin you get: expello "I expel" arma "weapon" (And for Accio you get "I summon") whether or not the wand is caught or picked up by the wizard who cast the spell depends on if the wizard wants to pick it up. Their original intention, again, would be to get the wand away from the other person if they used expelliarmus. This brings up a (hopefully) new question (for me at least). What happens if an object that has been 'accioed' is intercepted? Does it stop or does it keep trying to get to the person who summoned it? I hope that made sense ^^; ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sat Jan 25 08:42:25 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 03:42:25 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Random ideas Message-ID: <76.292b0283.2b63a7f1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50566 - since Riddle was the last heir to Slytherin (canon is in CS - but the statement there could be false), maybe Harry is reciprocally the last heir to Godric Gryffindor? A nice light vs. dark showdown to come :-) Ahh...this has been brought up a few times. I remember someone (sorry, I can't recall who ^^;) pointed out a quote Dumbledore said from CoS-'Only a true Gryffindor could've pulled the sword out of the hat'. Could LITTERALLY mean a true Gryffindor (as in someone desended from him). > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 08:46:45 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 08:46:45 -0000 Subject: The difference between the expelliarmus and accio spells In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50567 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aquariajade " wrote: > Hello: > > ...edited... > > When Harry needs his Firebolt for the first task in GoF, he > says, "Accio Firebolt". > > My understanding was that the accio spell was to draw a particular > thing *to you*, and the expelliarmus spell was to forcibly release > something from intended *person's hand*, but with NO INTENDED final > destination. > > But, IIRC, every time a wizard needs to get someone's wand, s/he > uses expelliarmus. Would it not be more useful to use accio wand(s)? > ...edited... Thoughts? > > Best, > > Jade bboy_mn: Ok, I'll give it a try. Expelliarmus - is a disarming charm. Accio - is a summoning charm. Expelliarmus is not intended to take an object away from a person and call it to yourself. ALthough, that is usually what you see when you observe it being cast. It is a charm intended to take away an opponent's offensive weapon capabilities. Sometimes that means disarming them, other times, to truly eliminate any offensive potential, it means knocking them down or out. So it has both defensive and offensive potential. Remember in the GoF, Harry used Expelliarmus to get the spider to drop him. Harry's charm took away the spiders offensive capability, to do that to a spider meant incapacitating it, and that combined with the Stunning Curse that Cedric used was enough to knock the spider out. We have already have two examples that show that an Expelliarmus curse has the power to knock someone at least down, if not out (Snape & Dueling club, and Snape in the Shrieking Shack). This seems obvious, but you can summon a feather, although you can't disarm a feather. Point? The purpose of Accio is to retrieve objects. It's possible, if you try to Accio a wizard's wand, he may not want to let go. He may fight your attempt to summon it. On the other hand, Expelliarmus unconditionally disarms your apponent. If his offensive capability is in his wand, then he loses his wand whether he wants to or not. If, once his wand is lost, he still poses an offensive thread, the charm goes further and stuns the wizard. If that's what it takes to render him a non-threat, then that's what it does. Once effectively cast, the charm can't be resisted. All spells and charms are modified by the wizard's intent. When Lupin entered the bedroom in the Shrieking Shack, the Expelliarmus charm was modified by his desire to get the wands. Not just make Harry and Hermione lose their wands, but for the wand to come to him. When Harry cast the Expelliarmus against Wormtail just before he escaped, Harry's intent wasn't to retrieve the wand but to prevent Wormtail from using it. If he had been more experienced, he could have modified his intent, and stunned Wormtail too. Also, the wizard, perhaps by intent or perhaps by emotions or both, controls the intensity of the curse. If Harry and Ron are practicing disarming, they probably aren't going to put much force behind the spell. But when Snape cast it against Lockhart, Snape, with full intent, maximized the power of the charm in order to knock Lockhart halfway across the room. Having said all that, I end with what I started with. Expelliarmus - is a disarming charm. Accio - is a summoning charm. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 09:07:14 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 09:07:14 -0000 Subject: Point System- How do they know? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50568 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Katie " wrote: > ... I've found comments on how the points are quite low considering > the projected amount of students that attend Hogwarts, ... > > I haven't found any speculation as to how the points are added up. > Is there a spell that keeps count of every point addition and > subtraction that goes on within the school boundaries or do the > teachers have the responsibility of keeping up with what the give > and take? Does anyone have a point of view on this? ... > > KtDiD bboy_mn: Considering how quickly the point totals change, I have to assume that is is some kind of enchantment. Everytime a teacher, add or subtracts points, the point board automatically update. In the incident where they took Norbert the dragon up to the tower and got caught, the lost 50 points each. First thing the next morning, the point boards (hourglasses) we already updated. I don't think McGonagall stayed up late that night, just to change the point board. So my best guess is that it is all automatic. bboy_mn From skelkins at attbi.com Sat Jan 25 09:11:58 2003 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 09:11:58 -0000 Subject: Flesh of Servant, Hand of Silver (mild TBAY ref) WAS: The Gleam? Not Again! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50569 Cindy got all excited about the Gleam again, and in what seemed to be an attempt to lure the MDDT out of retirement , she quoted Eric Oppen, who once wrote: > Could one of the side-effects of "flesh of the servant, > willingly(?) given" in the ritual to re-body-ize Voldemort > be to give _Wormtail_ some sort of power over Voldemort? > Think about it...part of Wormtail is now a big component in > Voldemort's new body. We've already seen that the magical "law > of similarity" applies in the Wizard World, what with HP's and > V's wands being unable to fight each other because they each > contain a feather from the tail of the same phoenix. Might this > not apply even more strongly between V-mort and W-tail? You know, if I were Voldemort, I'd be a little worried about that, sure. (In fact, if you buy into the MAGIC DISHWASHER theory, then Voldemort ought to be *really* worried about that!) Sympathetic magic does cut both ways, after all. But if I were Voldemort, I'd be even more worried about that *hand.* Because sympathetic magic *does* cut *both* ways. After all. See, people are always stressing about the damage that Wormtail's "silver" hand might do to Lupin, but as I read it, the thing isn't really made out of silver at all. It's just silver in *color.* It's silvery. In fact, it seems to me to be formed out of that Special Silvery wizarding Soul Stuff (tm). You know, the stuff that's in Dumbledore's Pensieve? The stuff that forms the sigil that Dumbledore shoots into the air to summon Hagrid in GoF? The stuff that actually forms ones *patronus?* Yeah. That stuff. Now, I'm not altogether sure what that stuff is. But I don't think that it's exactly *impersonal* stuff, if you know what I mean. It seems to me that whenever we see the silvery stuff show up, it's always in relation to something rather spiritual, something deeply intrinsic to the wizard himself. I don't think that having a right hand gifted to you by an evil dark wizard and formed from his very own Special Silvery Wizarding Soul Stuff (tm) is at all good news, spiritually speaking. *Especially* when you willingly sacrificed your *own* right hand to bring said evil dark wizard back to power. I'd say that you're looking at some seriously bad symbolical mojo when you are then granted such a thing as a reward, when *that* has become your right hand. I don't think that silvery hand can possibly be good for the state of Wormtail's soul. But I think that in the end, it just might prove even worse for Voldemort's health. Elkins From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 09:46:14 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 09:46:14 -0000 Subject: Quidditch, Number of Games, & Who Attends Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50570 I realize that there is only just so much story time that JKR can squeeze between the covers of a book. A recent post made me start thinking about how many points Quidditch adds to the house total. That in turn started me thinking about how many games would be played in a season. So how many games are played in a season? I should know the mathimatical formula for this, but I don't, so I sketched it out with a pen and paper. If all teams play an equal number of games, then there would be a total of 6 games which would allow every house to play every other house once. While we do hear about Quidditch games that go on off page, we don't hear about that many. And if Harry and Ron are such big Quidditch fans, how come we never hear a passing reference to them attending another house's games. Everyone attends the Gryffindor/Slytherin games, all four houses. So, I wonder if they used a process of elimination. The two weakest teams from the year before, play the two strongest teams. Winners of those two games play each other for the final championship. Total= 3 games. There is another variation of this, where the two weakest house play each other. That winner plays the number two ranked team from the year before, and that winner challenges the previous years winner. Again, total equals 3 games. That seems closer to the number of games we hear about. Eliminated teams, don't play anymore games. Based on the number of games I recall, the elimination process seems close, but it doesn't seem very fair, and would certainly help dominant houses to maintain their dominance. So the first question is, how are the tornements organised? I'm sure we have heard of other off page games, but there is no implication that Harry or Ron went to any of these. This puzzles me; I would at least expect a passing reference to it. Don't you think two big Quidditch fans like this would go to every game? Just some passing thoughts. bboy_mn From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 03:13:19 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 19:13:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: McGonagall the snoop (was: Owl to Arabella?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030125031319.79024.qmail@web21006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50571 gkjpo wrote: wrote: > cantoramy wrote: > > I don't think that an owl wasn't making a delivery as much as > > scouting out the Dursley's house so he could report back to the > > other owls. Everyone must have known that Harry was being taken > > there, and since nobody had probably even heard of the Dursley's > > before this, there was certainly major curiosity about them. Me It is also possible that the author didn't mean anything at all about that particular owl except just to show that there were owls flying messages all over the place. It's possible that she didn't even consider any other implications concerning that owl although an owl right at the part without any reason would be an extremely minor logical error. > > I am just curious why you think everyone knows where Harry is going? > Dumbledore is surprised to find McGonagall there. McGonagall. His > deputy mistress now. Seems to me he trust her I don't find it so strange that McGonagall was not informed. Even in GoF, she really seems to have no clue what is really going on in the end. She was sent from the room specifically by Dumbledore to keep her from the knowledge of Sirius. In general, she appears to be out of the loop. Me Actually Dumbledore seems to hold a great deal of information from EVERYBODY. He's the only one who seems to totally understand what's going on. It appears that he doles out his knowledge strictly on a "need to know" basis and that even includes his trusted people. It's also not certain that she didn't know who the dog was already. He may have simply sent her out because 1. He needed her to do her task and 2. There was no need to have her there. Then again, it's possible she didn't know. You can't tell with Dumbledore. She wasn't surprised when he sent her out though. I think, however, that from this (the owls swooping around), JKR would have us believe that there are a lot more wizarding/partial wizarding families out there and they are intermingled with the muggle population. My question is this, though. If wizards and muggles are largely intermingled (implied since Hogsmeade is the only fully wizard town in GB), how come none of the wizards knew how to dress like muggles at the World Cup? :) I noticed that too! I remember a reference somewhere (no idea where) to some wizzard who actually works in the muggle world. I think it comes down to most wizzards seems to know very little about the muggles (when Harry compared the hoops in Quiddich to basketball when Woods was explaining the game to him, Wood's reply was, "What's that?" That includes those living close to muggles. They may live among them but their world is so totally alien to each othr and very little effort is made by most to learn or understand the muggle world. However many wizzards and witches are very familiar with the muggle world. (Ms. Figg is) So it's up to the individual it seems. You would think they wouldn't be as ignorant of the muggles as so many of them are though, that's true. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 10:15:57 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 10:15:57 -0000 Subject: Democracy and Prejudice in the WW (WAS: Why do 'purebloods' hate Muggles?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50572 ON DEMOCRACY: Has anyone noticed that the WW is for the most part oligarchic? Canon seems to support the notion that a small group of elites rules the wizarding world. Consider: The Ministry of Magic. From what we know, the MoM is the sole arbiter and source of ALL policies in the British WW. I mean, we've never heard of any kind of referendum to "the people" in order to determine any kind of policy. I don't have GoF handy, but somewhere in there, I seem to recall a mention of Fudge being "appointed" to the post of Minister of Magic as an alternative to Barty Crouch, Sr., who, I believe, was tarnished politically by the involvement of his son with the Death Eaters. So, anyways, if people are "appointed" to these posts, who exactly does the appointing? Is there ever, ever, a mention in canon of wizarding elections? Not that I can recall. Is the WW so far behind the muggle world that they actually have no democracy? Consider the way student positions are handled at Hogwarts: Prefects and the Head Boy/Head Girl would also seem to be appointed by someone (s). Who, exactly, appoints these positions? I bet we'll find out more about that in subsequent books, especially if Hermione (as everyone seems to expect) becomes a Prefect. But doesn't it strike anyone as odd that there aren't (so far) any mentions of ELECTED student posts? Certainly if the positions of Prefect/Head Boy/Head Girl were elected, then we'd have very different results. Percy certainly didn't seem to be too popular, so I'd wager that he wouldn't be elected. And neither is Hermione, so ditto for her. Cedric, however, seemed to be quite popular within his house, so he probably would have been elected anyways. ON PREJUDICE: Now, as relates to democracy, the one theme I'm MOST interested in watching JKR develop is the tendency of the WW to have the same "sorts" of prejudices that we have, without them being identical. For all of their learning and enlightenment, the denizens of the WW don't seem to be any more advanced than we are when it comes to bias. Sure, I will give credit where credit is due and concede that "race," or perhaps better referred to as "skin color" doesn't seem to be a major issue. That aside, consider: - the ongoing enslavement of the disenfranchised house elves. - the expulsion and mistrust of the giants. - the "goblin rebellions." What were they rebelling against? - the hatred of mudbloods by many pure-bloods. - the WW policies regarding muggles, especially the erasing of memories (obliviation.) Cthonia says, in post # 47254 : "At the end of GoF it's stated that Weasley hasn't been promoted up the Ministry because he's too sympathetic to Muggles, which rather implies that actual Muggles wouldn't stand a chance. We aren't dealing with a democracy or a meritocracy here ? the powerful seem pretty adept at protecting their interests. And the Malfoys aren't doing too badly, are they?" And that's a completely accurate assessment, as far as I can see. The purebloods have protected their interests fairly effectively. And (Voldemort aside) aren't most ofthe Death Eaters from pureblood families? In fact, in some ways, aren't the Death Eaters the WW equivalent to the KKK? They run around in secret attacking those who are "different" on the basis of quantifiable characteristics, like lineage? Oh, and whether or not they pose a threat to the status quo. Cthonia says again, in the same post: "In this world, Nature wins out over nurture (Harry being an extreme case in point); even assuming there is a family tradition of belonging to a house, such a degree of consistency is remarkable." And this is entirely true, as far as the Potterverse is concerned. Harry is the PERFECT case in point, but the Weasleys, the Malfoys... they supplement the case nicely. There's a great quote at from Dumbledore in CoS: "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." (CoS 333) There's another from Dumbledore at the end of GoF (when he's arguing with Fudge about contacting the giants) that I can't find and won't attempt to paraphrase, but it's to the same effect. Cthonia says (again, same post): "Is JKR trying to make the point that prejudice is stupid and wrong so clearly that she's glossing over the ugly and real reasons for such behaviours taking root?" In a sense, I think yes. In another, no. She clearly is addressing the issue. Dumbledore and Arthur Weasley seem to be bastions of tolerance and, in some ways, attempt to be catalysts for change. Dumbledore advocates contacting giants, and employs one, as he also employed a werewolf. A.Weasley's Muggle Protection Act is something that, I think, we're going to learn more about. Has anyone ever read the Darksword Trilogy? That saga (while not nearly as comprehensive, nor as interesting as the HP series) takes place in a magical world called Thimhallan, which is similar to the Potterverse in the sense that it is a relatively isolated non-magical world. It's isolated to the extent that they (magic-users) keep themselves separate from non-magic users, whom they hate and mistrust. At the end of that series, Thimhallan is destroyed and the magic contained within it is released to the whole universe. Why? The authors seem to propose that it is ultimately wrong for the magic to be greedily horaded by the few, and that it would definitely be in the interests of *all* society if those few who do possess the magic would work hand-in-hand with the non-magic-users for the betterment of all. Does anyone think that JKR could be going this way? As one final thing to consider, on the Scholastic site, there are a few interviews with JKR. Here is one of the Q/A's that made me stop and think about all this: "Q: If there were one thing you could change about the world, what would it be? A: I would make each and every one of us much more tolerant." Hmmm. -Tom From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 10:32:55 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 10:32:55 -0000 Subject: Magic Space/Muggle Space??? In-Reply-To: <20030125051937.35826.qmail@web40512.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50573 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Maria Kirilenko wrote: > > "Steve " wrote: > > I assume that Diagon Alley is in what I call Magic Space; a > physically world that is separate from the normal world which I > will call Muggle Space. But I have to wonder, how big is this > Magic Space and where and how does it end? > > We know that the Magic City extends beyond Diagon Alley since there > are other magic places we have heard about; Knockturn Alley, the > Ministry office, St. Mungos Hospital, etc.... Having said that, I > have to wonder how big it is and what do you see when you reach > the edge of it's boundaries? > > ...edited... > -end this part- > > Now me: (Maria) > > Maybe neither. What if the Wizard space just keeps repeating itself? Like, if you'd walked through Diagon allley, then Knockturn Alley, and then further on, you'd end up in Diagon Alley where you started. > -end this part- bboy_mn: OK, I like this just because it so cool. 'All Roads Lead to Rome'. You start walking down Diagon Alley, you walk farther and father, and when you finally get to the end, you find youself facing the entrance to the Leaky Cauldron. So you turn around and walk back the way you came, and walk and walk, and when you get to the end, you are at the Leaky Cauldron again. Like a M?bius strip. Don't know if it's true, but it really is a cool concept. -bboy_mn-end this part- > Maria continues: > > I, however, seriously doubt that there is a vast amount of space there, as somebody (Mr. Weasley IIRC) in GoF mentioned that if would be impossible to cram all wanting to visit the QWC into Diagon alley. So even if there are some other streets in Wizarding London, there probably aren't too many. > > My two Knuts, > > Maria bboy_mn: I used to live near a rural town of 18,000. It had rich neighborhoods and poor neighborhood, business districts, industrial areas, shopping centers, several schools, many assorted businesses, hotels, motels, all the things you would expect to find in a town of 18,000. But you could never bring 100,000 people to this town. It would hopelessly overwhelm every resouce. It would be standing room only. And that's only their present, it doesn't even come close to addressing bringing them all together for one event. It would be preceived as an event on the level of a disaster. The obvious point is that the Magic City could still be a substantially large town, and not be able to accomadate 100,000 people. Even 100,000 campers at the World Cup must have used up every available patch of open land in the area. And what about bathroom facilities for 100,000? Drinking water for 100,000? Food for 100,000? I have a feeling many of these problems were solved with magic. 100,000 muggles decending on the camping district of Scotland would have also been a disaster. Again, the point, Magic City could be pretty big and still not be able to handle 100,000. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 10:26:17 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 10:26:17 -0000 Subject: Did Harry speak to the Basilisk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50574 Finwitch: And-- I do believe that Parseltongue can be discussive (as Harry was in the Zoo with the Boa or Nadine giving information to Voldemort), but also commanding. Such as Harry telling the snake Draco summoned in Duel club to leave Justin, Tom Riddle giving orders to the basilisk." Me: But, do you think that Parselmouths can talk to each *other* in Parseltongue, or that they can only talk to snakes? In CoS, when he opens the Chamber, Harry has to pretend that the snake engraved on the pipe is a real snake. I wonder if Harry will develop this ability. From what we know so far, he'll have to do that on his own, though, since the other parselmouth we know of certainly won't be training him. ;-) -Tom From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 10:44:33 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 10:44:33 -0000 Subject: The difference between the expelliarmus and accio spells In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50575 Steve: Expelliarmus is not intended to take an object away from a person and call it to yourself. ALthough, that is usually what you see when you observe it being cast. It is a charm intended to take away an opponent's offensive weapon capabilities. Sometimes that means disarming them, other times, to truly eliminate any offensive potential, it means knocking them down or out. So it has both defensive and offensive potential. Cassie: If you break it down in the Latin you get: expello "I expel" arma "weapon." Canon: "[Harry] pulled out his wand and shouted, 'Expelliarmus!' and just as Snape had disarmed Lockhart, so Malfoy found the diary shooting out of his hand into the air. Ron, grinning broadly, caught it." (CoS 239) Me: I wonder if this is a mistake, then. Cassie's Latin is dead-on, and I think Steve's right, that for the most part, 'expelliarmus' is used to remove a weapon from an opponent. And of course, Harry couldn't have 'accio-ed' the diary to himself, because he didn't learn that charm until GoF. Still, it's bizarre that a disarming spell could be used to remove a mere diary from Malfoy's hands, since a diary isn't really anything that could be perceived as a weapon. At least, not in most senses of the word. ;-) -Tom From nithya_rachel at hotmail.com Sat Jan 25 11:14:58 2003 From: nithya_rachel at hotmail.com (errolowl ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 11:14:58 -0000 Subject: Magic Space/Muggle Space??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50576 I think we discussed parts of this in ages past. Hmm, I've pondered on this some, but never really tried to put my thoughts in order ? so here goes. bboy_mn: >> I assume that Diagon Alley is in what I call Magic Space; a physically world that is separate from the normal world which I will call Muggle Space. But I have to wonder, how big is this Magic Space and where and how does it end? We know that the Magic City extends beyond Diagon Alley since there are other magic places we have heard about; Knockturn Alley, the Ministry office, St. Mungos Hospital, etc.... Having said that, I have to wonder how big it is and what do you see when you reach the edge of it's boundaries?<< I for one don't see one continuous "Magic City" the WW doesn't seem to go in for much city planning as far as I can see. It is more like they have continued to live in the midst of the muggle world, but felt the necessity to exclude certain places from muggle reach. When ever this need was felt, they could use muggle-repelling charms, or various other spells to camouflage these little pockets of space. These spaces haven't been created out of another dimension ? they are merely physical space that has been stolen and hidden away. And space can apparently be hidden in a variety of ways. Mode 1, Camouflage: Where you see the spatial extents, but not the contents/ buildings Eg, Hogwarts Much like with Hogwarts, muggles would see merely a deserted building, a land fill, letter box or some other innocuous item that they wouldn't give a thought to or be tempted to explore. But this kind of misdirection would surely get complicated if a muggle decided to say, play around on the rubbish heap. The hidden building is still actually occupying the physical space, but not only should the muggle not see it, but not feel it or be obstructed by it either if he actually walks through the space. It's not only visual illusion, but spatially similar to alternative reality/ virtual reality. How do they manage to do that? Well, its Magic! (Is there a rabbit in the hat, or not?). since the virtual reality part might be tricky, visual camouflage is most probably combined with the second method, distraction. Mode 2, Distraction/ Diversion: Where you don't get close enough to see anything Ex, Quidditch World Cup Stadium, possibly the forbidden forest " Ministry taskforce of five hundred have been working on it all year. Mugggle repelling charms on every inch of it. Every time muggles have got anywhere near, they've suddenly remembered urgent appointments and had to dash away again bless them!" (GoF U.S paperback, pg 87) umm, mind control again. He-who-wanted-to-investigate-the-rubbish- heap will have a kind of hypnotic suggestion leading him away. By the time he realizes he really had no appointment he needed to get to, he would at best have only a confused/ vague idea of what he had intended to do. Most probably he would have totally forgotten the impulse he'd had to explore. (now is this a combination of the imperious / memory charm??). This could work both ways, also keeping the Wizarding world *in*. The beasties of the forbidden forest get turned back at the boundaries maybe? Mode 3, The pleated cloth : Where you can't see even the spatial extents Eg, Diagon Alley, Platform 9 3/4 "If Hagrid hadn't pointed it out, Harry wouldn't have noticed it was there. The people hurrying by didn't glance at it. Their eyes slid from the big bookshop on one side to the record shop on the other as if they couldn't see the Leaky Cauldron at all." (PS, 68) The third alternative is probably the most prevalent, atleast within the city limits where large vacant plots of land would seem strange, and the number of people to distract everyday would be too many. The space physically still exists, but its like a zipper has been closed in front of it, bringing the opposite outer boundaries together ? atleast to muggle eyes. There is no flat shimmering boundary wall of ether. Rather space is, shall we say, folded in on itself? There is a pleat in the spatial fabric, and you have to have wizarding powers to see the crease in the fabric which constitutes the gap/entry point (the Leaky Cauldron). Other entry openings could be created as necessary. Muggles just see a spatial continuum. Bboy_mn: >>When you stand at the edge of that magic space is there a big cosmic wall of shimmering ether that can not be penitrated? Does it just gradually fade into Muggle Space? Are there assorted entrance/exit point that server to define it's boundaries? Is the border just a row of shops and/or houses between which and beyond which there are no more streets, this row of building acting as a wall around the perimeter of that Magic Space? If it is a magical box (small outside/big inside) then it would seem to be bounded. When you reach the edge, whatever that edge may be, you can't go any farther.<< And yes, a fold of physical space means it is bounded. Diagon alley would be the space between the leaky cauldron and what the muggles perceive to be the building behind it, and the buildings on either side. And these could be said to form a "wall" around the hidden space. However, since it is a matter of perception, I'd say this "walled-in area" is not small at all, but a significant amount of real estate. *Significant* mind, but not (I think) a whole city in itself. I still hold that it was just another pocket of space they needed to hide ? a commercial neighborhood that was too obviously magical. There must be several such folds scattered around London. We happen to know of just Diagon Alley. St. Mungos could be located at the opposite end of the city. This theory implies that the "Magic city" is a collection of hidden pockets of space scattered throughout the muggle city. Though the pockets might be located at some distance from each other, they could still have a communicating gateway which leads from one to another (travel via another dimension, or just plain Magic!) without having to go through the "muggle spaces". Thus knockturn alley could be in a totally different part of London, but be accessible from Diagon Alley. (Hmm, does each `stop' on the floo network stand for a separate `pocket'?). Surprisingly, platform 9 ? which we know to be physically separate from Diagon Alley is not connected by some magical means. And now regarding SIZE. Difficult. Really difficult. Would you say that approximately one third of actual London is hidden away from muggles? ;-). Not too many blocks in any one chunk, but a staggering total nevertheless. Also, the hidden space can most probably be magically expanded a little, much like the Weaslys' car. Not too much though, for obviously there are limits on something like that. Else Authur could have had the interior of a Limousine inside his little Ford. Maria also brought up the point that Authur Weasly mentions it would be impossible to cram the entire QWC crowd into Diagon Alley or platform 9 3/4. (Gof, 66) Since I assume that platform 9 ? is quite a small space (just a platform) I find it strange that Authur should mention it along with Diagon Alley as if they were roughly of comparable sizes. Hope my midnight rambling was atleast remotely coherent! Errol Who thinks that Maria's repeating-space concept was fun. Farfetched, but fun. :) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 11:46:07 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 11:46:07 -0000 Subject: The difference between the expelliarmus and accio spells In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50577 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall " wrote: > > Steve: > Expelliarmus is a charm intended to take away an opponent's > offensive weapon capabilities. ... > > Cassie: > If you break it down in the Latin you get: expello "I expel" > arma "weapon." > > Canon: > "[Harry] pulled out his wand and shouted, 'Expelliarmus!' and just > as Snape had disarmed Lockhart, so Malfoy found the diary shooting > out of his hand into the air. Ron, grinning broadly, caught it." (CoS 239) > > Me: > I wonder if this is a mistake, then. Cassie's Latin is dead-on, > and I think Steve's right, that for the most part, 'expelliarmus' > is used to remove a weapon from an opponent. > > ...edited... > > Still, it's bizarre that a disarming spell could be used to remove a > mere diary from Malfoy's hands, ...edited... > > -Tom bboy_mn: Who has stayed up way too late. We come back to the wizard's intent. Ron knocked out a troll using the wrong spell. He used 'levitate a feather' when he should have used 'levitate wood' (or something equivalent). Yet his intent was so strong, that it worked anyway. The Diary is not a weapon in the truest sense, but it is dangerous, an obviously substantial enchanted object, and has potential for harm. This is compounded by Draco using the diary against Harry. In a very vague broad general sense, Draco is using it as a weapon to torment Harry; to attack his emotions. Given what I have said, and Harry's assumed feelings, he could have had the motivating feeling necessary to make a disarming charm work. Just a few thoughts. boy_mn From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 12:31:03 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 12:31:03 -0000 Subject: The difference between the expelliarmus and accio spells In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50578 Steve wrote: We come back to the wizard's intent. Ron knocked out a troll using the wrong spell. He used 'levitate a feather' when he should have used 'levitate wood' (or something equivalent). Yet his intent was so strong, that it worked anyway. Me: Doesn't 'wingardium leviosa' mean something like "wings high, take flight?" to use the latin liberally? In a sense, couldn't that apply to anything? Wingardium Leviosa is a levitation charm, right? Why necessarily feathers? -Tom From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 25 12:52:10 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 12:52:10 -0000 Subject: Missing scenes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50579 A couple of days ago, somebody (sorry, I can't remember who, and Yahoomort's search function is being singularly unhelpful) mentioned that they really wish they could've seen the scene in GoF where Fake! Moody talks to Neville after the Unforgivables class and gives him the herbology book. This got me thinking about a number of other "missing scenes" in the books that I would've loved to see. I don't mean things that might theoretically have happened, but things that canon definitely tells us have happpened, but we never see them or even get a second-hand account of them Here's the list I came up with: Snape first finding out that Lupin has been hired as DADA teacher and that he (Snape) will be expected to make the Wolfsbane for him. Sirius' confrontation with the Fat Lady. Fake!Moody taking Draco to Snape for disciplining after the bouncing ferret incident -- this is by far my top choice. Just *think* of all the ways Crouch Jr. could stick it to Snape in this particular confrontation. "The Egg and the Eye" would be a friendly chat by comparison. Krum asking Hermione to the Yule Ball. Pettigrew meeting Bertha at that inn and fast-talking her into accepting his existeence and going off for a walk with him. Hmm. It seems all my choices are from the last two books, which I suppose is not too surprising. So, anyone else have their own list? Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From Ali at zymurgy.org Sat Jan 25 12:55:06 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 12:55:06 -0000 Subject: Gringotts Bank In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50580 Scott wrote: <<< I'm not a lawyer either, but I think that if you're convicted of "racketerring activity," your assets can be siezed under RICO ("RACKETEER INFLUENCED AND CORRUPT ORGANIZATIONS") laws, which are mainly in place to fight organized crime, but I believe the US government has a tendency to be, uh, flexible with this law. From what I've seen, "racketeering activity" is somewhat broad: Maybe someone who IS a lawyer could help us out. Of course, this is only in the US. I've not the slighest idea if it's similar in the UK. But under US law, I could easily see Sirius's assets being seized (he was imprisoned without "trial"), but really, who knows what the MoM is thinking. It's probably not as simple.>>> OK, I have a Law degree, and I was a bank manager, so I know quite a lot about English Banking Law. If the WW follows England, than Sirius' bank account would not ordinarily be frozen, neither would the MoM have any right to information about it. The Duty of Confidentiality is of vital importance in the relationship between bank and client. This would only be breached for things like money laundering ? eg for drugs and terrorism, and what is called "Compulsion of Law". This would mean that the MoM obtained an order (or just ordered, depending on how their legal system works) for Gringott's to release information. You would think that they might have done this in an effort to track Sirius' movements as a fugitive, but it seems that it was not done. There is no evidence that the MoM does have a legal and political system strong enough to control Gringotts bank but if it does not, we are presented with a WW economy radically driven from our own state directed, market economy in which the Demand/Supply economics is affected by government policy, but I digress ... <> Oh course, it's JKR's world, but if it is as simple as keyholding, where is Sirius' key when his funds are withdrawn? Does an Owl Order contain a key? In fact, Sirius doesn't even say he used an Owl Order, all he says is that Crookshanks took his [Firebolt] order to the Owl Office. This order used Harry's name but took the gold from Sirius' vault. Kiricat wrote: >>> Which doesn't really get to the question of how money is transferred from the account of a fugitive to a broom merchant. I suppose if everything is written out correctly on an order form, with the correct vault indicated, and signed by the owner of the vault, then, perhaps this is then considered a binding agreement. <<< Matina replied: <<>> I tend to agree with Steve Bboy, that the Order implies a gift order. Name of recipient X, name of buyer, Y. Perhaps, it is only necessary to quote the vault number, and not give name or signature. This would make Gringott's banking very different to the Muggle World, and open to abuse unless, there is some sort of magical contract of which we are not aware. Steve Bboy: <<>> To what extent does being a godfather make you legally family? None, that I'm aware of. James asked Sirius' to be Harry's Guardian, but this is a duty that he was never able to take up. Furthermore, even next-of-kin have no rights over their relative's bank account. I do think that Marina's theory about a joint bank account is plausible, particularly given the ambiguous text, but it seems to me to open up as many questions as it answers: A joint account with Sirius as an account holder would be watched just as much as a sole account. There would also be problems with regard to Harry's authorisation ? he didn't. If Sirius could and did, then there would be no need for a joint account, he could authorise funds on his own behalf. Ali From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 13:15:31 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 13:15:31 -0000 Subject: Random ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50581 mysmacek writes: - it seems to me, that during POA, there has to be about 10 first years in each house - certainly less than 20. The canon for that is that for R&H to miss the sorting ceremony, it would have to be a really short one, since their calling off by McGonnagall does not seem like a long one - and don't forget that the ceremony did not start when they left. Me: Scholastic's website has several JKR Q&A sessions online. Here's the URL for the following canon: http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm ----- Q: How many students attend Hogwarts, and how many students per year per house? A: There are about a thousand students at Hogwarts. ----- If we do the math, we get: 1000/4 = 250 250 /7 = ~35 So, about 35 students per year per house. Of course, that's assuming that each year, roughly the same number of students come to the school, and that out of that total, each house gets roughly the same number of students. So, apparently, we haven't even met half of 'em in Harry's year alone. -Tom From cas at toxic.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 25 13:19:40 2003 From: cas at toxic.demon.co.uk (Cas ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 13:19:40 -0000 Subject: Where the Malfoys Live In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50582 Wow, delurks after 6 months for first post! Manors, manor houses and mansions. Annemehr said recently > So, I think in Britain, "a manor" would imply a *very* large >country estate. I see it as more a technical (British) term for >that kind of estate, rather than just a very large house (as in >a "mansion"). Cas Manor, as you said, is a feudal term relating to land holding. However, the manor house could have as its name, say, Malfoy Manor. This house could also be a mansion, which is just another word for a big house. It could just as easily be a picturesque ruin, but given the Malfoys' finances, probably not. Thus, to clarify things further (sic) the name, Malfoy Manor could refer to both the estate and the house, but the word manor on its own would only refer to the estate in a technical sense. I can't imagine Lucius saying for example, "I'm just going to pop down to my manor." He would say, home or estate. Although I'm Scottish and things are a bit different here. Oh and it's a rural building not an urban or suburban building. Where cities expanded to include such estates, the value of the land went up to such an extent that the owners sold up and the estates were broken up and built over. I can't see Malfoy Manor being anywhere other that out in the sticks. Cas Who suspects this is all probably still as clear as mud. From pennylin at swbell.net Sat Jan 25 14:05:30 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 08:05:30 -0600 Subject: Banter and other SHIP subjects (was TBAY/SHIP: Avast Maties! or: on the S.S. pumpkin pie) References: Message-ID: <006001c2c47a$d1bd6620$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 50583 Hi -- I said: > I also like the pattern that Derannimer picked up on. I think you're right that Hermione says something serious to Ron or Ron and Harry or to someone else, and Ron responds with a smart-ass comment. I too think Ron is funny (sometimes, but not always). But, he and Hermione are definitely *not* engaging in banter or verbal courtship of any kind, IMO.>>>>>>>>>> Angua replied: <<<<>>>>>> If it's the cases I'm thinking of though, it's not so much her being "smart-ass" or witty as being derisive about what he's just said. A zinger? I'd say a put-down myself. If she were making those types of comments to Harry, I'd probably conclude she didn't think too highly of Harry's reasoning skills. <<<>>> Nope, I don't. Zinging sounds more like taunting than playful teasing to me. You said it yourself: Hermione frequently "revenges herself" on Ron, oftentimes considerably after-the-fact. Sounds to me like she was a bit stung by a remark and waited until she could throw it back in his face later. Not bantering. Not verbal courtship. Not IMO. <<<>>>>>>>>> No, I don't think it needs to be resolved with distance and reform (whatever that means). I just think it will eventually be resolved that they just like to argue. That the arguing is not the basis of attraction. That the arguing does not cause or mask a romantic attraction. That they are just friends whose communication method involves a fair bit of arguing and sniping at one another. At least, as far as Hermione is concerned anyway. Ron clearly is attracted to her, and maybe the arguing/bickering is his way of showing it because he's a teenager or because that's how he would show it, no matter what his age. But, I'm not so sure that Hermione is naturally sarcastic or gets any sort of "charge" out of their interaction or that she returns Ron's romantic feelings. <<<>>>>>> Yep. Hollywood. > > 1 - Her parents' marriage, which had "sparks" and arguments, and was > (mostly) happy.>>>>>>> > > Source please? On the "sparks" and "arguments"? Angua: <<<>>>>>>>>>>>>> If it's written by Shapiro, you should really not trust anything it says. It was written for children, and there was no original research done as best I could tell. I could give you a list a mile-long of basic facts about her life that Shapiro got wrong, including the year of her birth! Sean Smith's biography, OTOH, is written for an adult audience and clearly has original research into primary records and interviews with friends who knew the Rowlings. He includes her birth record, her marriage record and though he didn't copy it, the interdict against Arantes, as examples of primary sources. He includes direct quotes from friends, neighbors, colleagues, teachers, etc. I said: > If she's blushing because Harry is caught her up in subterfuge, as you concede (thanks!), then there is NO R/H foreshadowing. Her blush (and her intent) have nothing whatsoever to do with romantic interest in Ron. You conceded as much. Angua: <<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh sure, you can *argue* subtext if you want, Angua. I personally think the above is a weak argument .......and presumably those last examples are meant in jest as Susanne suggests (?). Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jan 25 14:14:05 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstin Innes ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 14:14:05 -0000 Subject: Where the Malfoys Live In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50584 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr " wrote: >>(if I make any mistakes about RL fact, any Brits reading this should correct me!) Hello! A "Brit" of sorts (technically a Scot, but always happy to oblige)here.A couple of points: The difference between a manor and a mansion is that "mansion" refers just to the house itself, whereas the term "manor", I think, refers also to the family estate and rank - ie a mansion would be "formerly a manor" if the titled family who once owned it were no longer in residence. However, many older houses in England (not Scotland, but then the term is particular to the fussy wee country down south)still retain the title "___ Manor" - if the house has already been named, there seems little point in changing it, I suppose. In the earlier post on this topic (sorry. I haven't worked out how to quote from more than one post yet. I will get there soon.) Steve spoke about mansion houses in Beverly Hills and Minnappolis (was it?) having begun isolated but eventually becoming surrounded by city. I'm not claiming to be an expert on London, magical or otherwise - I think that the way that city has spread rather defies logic - but there is nowhere else in Britain where that could happen. Not sure what sort of pride the MoM takes in their national heritage, but all buildings of the sort you describe in Muggle Britain are around 200-500 years old and protected by a heritage trust of some sort or another. When these buildings become listed, it becomes impossible for developers to build anything round about that would spoil the scenic aspect. London, as I said, is a law unto itself, but I feel fairly certain that similar regulations would apply. Manor houses are usually, like the Riddle house (which I don't think quite qualifies under this description), set at some distance from a small village whose occupants were, until recently, the tenants of the landed family. They are usually too far out for the city to hold any claim to them. There are some very big houses in Central London, but none of these could be called "manors" or even "mansions", and the villages that expanding Greater London swallowed up tended to be hamlets and boroughs, independant of the manor house tenancy system. I feel fairly certain that this is the system that JKR has in mind when she refers to the Malfoy's "manor". Part of the Malfoy pride lies in the fact that they are an old wizarding family, which could be seen to be equivilant to a titled Muggle family (although these have very little sway in contemporary Britain), and a titled Muggle family would almost certainly own (or have once owned) land. Obviously, Hogsmeade is the only all-wizard settlement in Britain, and as the Malfoys hate Muggles there would be little chance of them living *too* near a village. However, I really think that this, rather than a town-house, is the sort of thing JKR means. One final piece of argument - if the Malfoys lived in London, why would Lucius be combining two trips into one - getting rid of artefacts and buying Draco's school supplies on the same day? If he lived nearer he could surely have gone in to Knockturn Alley on a day when he was slightly less likely to meet all of Draco's fellow Hogwarts students in Magical London, and visited Mr Borgin in privacy. Sorry for the pedantry. Kirstin From kristen at sanderson-web.com Sat Jan 25 14:20:04 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (gkjpo ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 14:20:04 -0000 Subject: Missing Scene - Wizardtown WAS: Re: Muggle Questions Was: McGonagall the snoop In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50585 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve " wrote: > This is how I see wizards, people living in a foreign country that > they are not very comfortable with. They don't understand that > language, they don't understand the customs, routine things are done > in strange and unusually ways. I'm sure, the muggle world seems like a > very dangerous place to them. Plus, wizards don't have to leave the > house to travel. They just pop (apparate or Floo) directly to Diagon > Alley to eat, socialize, and shop. Diagon Alley is their 'Chinatown'; > their comfortable escape from a strange and foreign world. > Hmmm, a very interesting concept and it makes a lot of sense (do you think there are good restaurants there too? What does wizard ethnic food taste like?). I have always imagined the wizard homes in the middle of suburbia as those being the people who keep to themselves and don't interact with their neighbors. The neighborhood would probably label them as eccentric and avoid the house. I would like to add this to a thread started below on missing scenes. I would love to see 'Wizardtown' in action. I would imagine that in the heart of it, there is wizard activity while on the outskirts people just apparate/disapparate if they can. Remember, however, that only some wizards apparate and they must have a license. Can you imagine a scene where a group of muggles end up in the middle of 'Wizardtown' and attempt to stop and ask for directions? Kristen From heidit at netbox.com Sat Jan 25 15:04:13 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 10:04:13 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIPping For the Long Haul In-Reply-To: <88109707991.20030124184751@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <05ce01c2c483$0647e4d0$0301a8c0@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 50586 Susanne wrote: > It's almost like Eloise with her "off-center" nose. > Ron is seen as unworthy to be part of the trio in a way, or > be liked by Hermione, because he doesn't show any special > magical strength or logical thinking. > > I'm not sure if I'm getting across what I'm trying to say :} I'm not sure if I'm interpriting you properly, so I'll say that as a disclaimer right up front. I think Ron does show good strategic logic in chess - there's no other way to win consistently - and I'm sure there have been other times when he's been logical in his thinking (no need to list them, anyone, at least not for my sake) - and I haven't seen much, if any, commenting on some theory that Ron is an unworthy friend at this point in canon, in an overall sense (although he *did* have that fight with Harry which *he* instigated in Book 4 (in contrast to Harry's semifallingout with Hermione, which was at least motivated by her concern for Harry's safety and well-being)). However, there is a tremendously large difference between being a good friend and a good lifetime-companion-in-the-akin-to-marital-sense. I'm lucky enough to have friends of both genders - longtime friends, from elementary school and college and beyond - and there is no way I'd've married any of them. The concept of friendship is so different from the situation of living with someone who you're in love with that I really don't think there's any requirement for correlation between the two at all. Where Ron might be fine for Hermione as a friend (although I continue to believe that had Harry not created the impetus for their friendship by going after Hermione during the troll incident, they would *not* be best friends at this point, which is why I always have issues with AU fanfics that show them as best friends despite Harry's being sorted into Slytherin), there are things like his competativeness and their bickering which would have a stronger/more significant impact on a romantic situation. So please, Susanne, don't paint a broad brush over those of us who think that a long-term romance between Ron and Hermione would be unsuccessful, and presume that it also means that we think that a long-term friendship between Ron and Hermione would be unsuccessful - even if they date in the interim. Of course, those of us who think that romance is in the cards between Draco and Hermione may see that romance as a glitch in the Ron-Hermione friendship, but that's a story for another time. Heidi, muddling her own arguments since 2000 From Zarleycat at aol.com Sat Jan 25 15:28:18 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001 ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 15:28:18 -0000 Subject: Missing scenes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50587 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marinafrants " wrote: This got me thinking about a number of > other "missing scenes" in the books that I would've loved to see. I > don't mean things that might theoretically have happened, but things > that canon definitely tells us have happpened, but we never see them > or even get a second-hand account of them Here's the list I came up > with: > > Snape first finding out that Lupin has been hired as DADA teacher > and that he (Snape) will be expected to make the Wolfsbane for him. > > Sirius' confrontation with the Fat Lady. > > Fake!Moody taking Draco to Snape for disciplining after the bouncing > ferret incident -- this is by far my top choice. Just *think* of > all the ways Crouch Jr. could stick it to Snape in this particular > confrontation. "The Egg and the Eye" would be a friendly chat by > comparison. > > Krum asking Hermione to the Yule Ball. > > Pettigrew meeting Bertha at that inn and fast-talking her into > accepting his existeence and going off for a walk with him. Let's see - Padfoot's point of view as he slinks/runs/tiptoes through the halls of Azkaban on his break for freedom. A more complete description of Florence's activites behind the greenhouse. (It was the greenhouse, wasn't it?? Maybe it's time to reread GoF!) Whatever meeting Snape had with Dumbledore to announce his intention or plead his case to leave the DEs and join the "good guys." Marianne From hermionegranger.gryffindor at juno.com Sat Jan 25 14:58:34 2003 From: hermionegranger.gryffindor at juno.com (hermionegrangergryffindor ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 14:58:34 -0000 Subject: Gringotts Bank In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50588 Ali wrote: <> I tried searching the archives to make sure I wasn't going over a topic that's been talked to death and couldn't find anything. So, here goes: Why did Sirius, who is Harry's godfather and guardian, allow Hagrid to borrow his motorcycle to take Harry to the Dursley's? -He is portrayed in the end of PoA and in GoF as wanting Harry to come live with him, and providing for Harry's welfare. -Did Hagrid tell him what the bike was for, or did Sirius not know until it was a fait accompli? -If he did know, did he think Harry would be safer at the Dursleys while he hunted down Wormtail, not knowing the horrible people they are? -Or did he believe he would pick Harry up as soon as Wormtail was caught? If so, Dumbledore for one seemed fairly certain that Harry would remain at the Dursleys' until he came to Hogwarts - and this seems to be before Sirius is accused of betraying the Potters. So, is there some deeper meaning behind this? Sara From heidit at netbox.com Sat Jan 25 15:37:40 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 10:37:40 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Democracy and Prejudice in the WW (WAS: Why do 'purebloods' hate Muggles?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <05df01c2c487$b21588e0$0301a8c0@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 50589 Tom Wall wrote about democracy. Tom, let me guess - you don't live in the UK, do you? Neither do I - although in college my major was British history from 1066 to 1990, so I'm sure someone more familiar with British Parliamentary structures and school organization can explain this a lot better than I can but... > Has anyone noticed that the WW is for the most part oligarchic? > Canon seems to support the notion that a small group of elites rules > the wizarding world. Actually, it doesn't. We've seen Arthur Weasley, who is implied to be not part of the elite, in terms of money, etc, in the wizarding world, hold a senior position in the Ministry - yes, it's also implied that it's not a very prestigious or well paid position, but if it was a true oligarchy, then that kind of position would be held by a screw-up son of a powerful family. > > Consider: The Ministry of Magic. From what we know, the MoM is the > sole arbiter and source of ALL policies in the British WW. Correct, just as in the UK, there is no clear separation of legislative and executive branches of the government; the executive branch is, structurally, a committee of the legislature, but because of party discipline, the cabinet, as leadership of the majority party, controls Parliament, while being answerable to it. (from Infoplease.com). The UK is a democracy, however because the members of Parliament are elected by the people. Even though, as you note, Fudge was appointed Minister of Magic, he was "appointed" because the members of his group/party/organization (we don't yet know) named him the head of said party. And the head of the party is the one who is Prime Minister in the UK, so it seems logical that she'd parallel the political structure of the country in which she lives, not the political structure used by the US (which is, actually somewhat rare among countries with elective processes). > > So, anyways, if people are "appointed" to these posts, who exactly > does the appointing? Is there ever, ever, a mention in canon of > wizarding elections? Not that I can recall. No mention in the books (although there might be something mentioned in QTTA or FB) , but given that in the UK, elections only need be held every five years, unless the party in power calls for an election at another time, and given that in the UK the election cycle is incredibly brief compared to what we have in the US, it would surprise me if we see more than one in canon. If that. > > Is the WW so far behind the muggle world that they actually have no > democracy? No, it just seems that the wizards in the UK have a setup more similar to that of the UK itslef. Makes sense, doesn't it? I mean, parliament in the UK has existed (inconsistently, mind you) since the 1300's, which is well before the Wizard/Muggle split described in Quidditch Through the Ages. > > Consider the way student positions are handled at Hogwarts: Prefects > and the Head Boy/Head Girl would also seem to be appointed by > someone (s). Who, exactly, appoints these positions? I bet > we'll find out > more about that in subsequent books, especially if Hermione (as > everyone seems to expect) becomes a Prefect. > > But doesn't it strike anyone as odd that there aren't (so far) any > mentions of ELECTED student posts? No, it strikes me as perfectly acceptable and reasonable, given that Hogwarts is in the UK. In the UK, prefects and the Head Boy and/or Girl are generally chosen by the instructors and/or administration. While there are some schools that now have election of prefects, or other systems in place, the traditional setup allowed only for selection by those in authority. If you've read some of Roald Dahl's books about his schooldays, this might seem more natural for you. But they don't have cheerleaders for school sports, or graduation at the end of school, or proms, as a longstanding (i.e. more than a generation) tradition in British schools - so why would JKR incorporate such things as standard practise in the British wizarding world? Heidi, occasionally wishing to be a Londoner since 1983 From michelleapostolides at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jan 25 15:49:55 2003 From: michelleapostolides at yahoo.co.uk (Michelle Apostolides) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 15:49:55 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Democracy and Prejudice in the WW ( slight movie reference ) References: <05df01c2c487$b21588e0$0301a8c0@Frodo> Message-ID: <003b01c2c489$6827d600$19362850@ukf974444> No: HPFGUIDX 50590 Even though, as you note, Fudge was appointed Minister of Magic, he was "appointed" because the members of his group/party/organization (we don't yet know) named him the head of said party. This is an interesting point. I don't think politics (in the sense we would understand it) happens. I think that the wizarding community is too small to have true democracy, and as all the major players seem to know one another, I suspect that the MoM just gets chosen according to who the great and good feel would be best at representing them with Muggle leaders. Which would explain why he would go and visit Hagrid personally. I get the view from the way JKR has allowed the Wizarding World to be depicted on film, that it's not a very modern society. That's why I don't think there is true democracy in it. Michelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ArtsyLynda at aol.com Sat Jan 25 15:50:48 2003 From: ArtsyLynda at aol.com (ArtsyLynda at aol.com) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 10:50:48 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] the difference between expelliarmus and accio spells Message-ID: <1cc.c9f927.2b640c58@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50591 In a message dated 1/25/2003 3:17:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, aquaiajade writes: > every time a wizard needs to get someone's wand, s/he uses > expelliarmus. Would it not be more useful to use accio wand(s)? If > expelliarmus is used, it does not specify where the wand would end up > and it could fly anywhere, causing the wizard casting the spell to > need to run about to catch it. > Seems to me the wizards wouldn't want another wizard's wand too close to theirs when they have the wands are activated -- I don't have the book handy, but somebody was pulling "most recent spells" out of the end of somebody else's wand in one spot, and then there was the case of Harry's and Voldemort's wands trying to cancel each other out until Harry won (GoF). I realize that's a very unusual circumstance, since their wands have feathers from the same phoenix, but just think how many wands must exist with hairs from the same unicorn's tail? (Unicorn hairs being far more plentiful than phoenix tail feathers, I mean, and wands containing unicorn hairs seeming to be more common as well.) Another thing is, the wizard who does "expelliarmus" to another's wand is trying to disarm that other wizard, and getting the wand out of his hand is what he's concentrating on -- where it lands isn't that important, because the wand isn't powerful by itself -- somebody has to operate it (I guess it doesn't have to be a wizard -- even a house-elf can operate one, apparently). I'm still kind of new to all this, so I could be mistaken, but that's what occurred to me when the same question popped into my head while reading. Boy, I wish I could do "accio" spells myself -- then I wouldn't be hunting for my cell phone and keys all the time! LOL! Lynda Sappington Equine Art by Lynda Sappington Elegant equine art in bronze, cold-cast porcelain, handcast paper and resin. Also jewelry with an equine theme in 14K gold and sterling silver. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 16:27:55 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 16:27:55 -0000 Subject: Democracy and Prejudice in the WW (WAS: Why do 'purebloods' hate Muggles?) In-Reply-To: <05df01c2c487$b21588e0$0301a8c0@Frodo> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50592 You know, your responses had never, ever crossed my mind. Like, not even remotely. If it would be alright, I'd like to follow up with a few questions, for clarification and my own enlightenment. ;-) Heidi writes: "...in the UK, there is no clear separation of legislative and executive branches of the government; the executive branch is, structurally, a committee of the legislature, but because of party discipline, the cabinet, as leadership of the majority party, controls Parliament, while being answerable to it. (from Infoplease.com). The UK is a democracy, however because the members of Parliament are elected by the people." And Tom humbly asks: So, what you're suggesting is that Fudge is the apointed head of the party of lawmakers that currently holds the majority in the wizard 'parliament,' which ultimately would be an elected body that is answerable to the denizens of the WW? Follow-up question: does that mean that the appointed head of the party would likewise be responsible for appointing the officers of the other departments (i.e. Arthur Weasley and so forth?) And one more: we haven't heard of any reference at all to any kind of legislative body in connection with the MoM. All we hear about is the immense beaurocracy and deluge of offices and committees that the MoM appears to be. Would this be standard fare for the UK government? I mean, even here in the states we hear about the Parliament and so forth - in fact (and only marginally OT) I just read a bit this morning about Blair and the House of Lords. But we haven't heard anything about any of this in canon. Heidi writes: "...given that in the UK, elections only need be held every five years, unless the party in power calls for an election at another time, and given that in the UK the election cycle is incredibly brief compared to what we have in the US, it would surprise me if we see more than one in canon. If that." And Tom responds: I'm still a little confused about the election process - wouldn't we have heard *something* about an election, any election, at some point in reference to the Fudge/Crouch Minister of Magic bit in GoF? Heidi points out: "In the UK, prefects and the Head Boy and/or Girl are generally chosen by the instructors and/or administration. While there are some schools that now have election of prefects, or other systems in place, the traditional setup allowed only for selection by those in authority." And Tom asks: Is this the case in private schools only, or also in the public schools as well? I guess I betray my own position here, as a result of the U.S. public school system, but in my schools we worked firmly from a position of student body elections. There was not even consideration of administration appointees to head the student class. We would have laughed at them. I figured that that's why no one seems to have any respect for the Prefects. -Tom (who is increasingly curious about this, and who is simultaneously embarrassed that he revealed his ignorance such an open-mouth-insert-foot manner.) ;-) From Ali at zymurgy.org Sat Jan 25 16:46:50 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 16:46:50 -0000 Subject: Democracy and Prejudice in the WW ( slight movie reference ) In-Reply-To: <003b01c2c489$6827d600$19362850@ukf974444> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50593 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Michelle Apostolides" wrote: < > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From siskiou at earthlink.net Sat Jan 25 16:50:28 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 08:50:28 -0800 Subject: Worthy? was Re: [HPforGrownups] SHIPping For the Long Haul In-Reply-To: <05ce01c2c483$0647e4d0$0301a8c0@Frodo> References: <05ce01c2c483$0647e4d0$0301a8c0@Frodo> Message-ID: <140160273361.20030125085028@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 50594 Hi, Saturday, January 25, 2003, 7:04:13 AM, heiditandy wrote: > So please, Susanne, don't paint a broad brush over those of us who > think > that a long-term romance between Ron and Hermione would be > unsuccessful, Should have put a few more "some" in there, shouldn't I ? Sorry about the use of the broad brush, but I don't think I got my real point across (as I was afraid I wouldn't). It has more to do with how we as readers (not all, but some) are waiting for breakthroughs in some characters (namely Ron and Neville, as examples) and I was wondering if they'd still like the characters, if they *didn't* have this breakthrough. I mean, readers (some) who see this potential in a character, which may or may not be realized. I shouldn't have brought the shipping into it, since it muddied my question. And I should think about the question I'm trying to ask a bit more, since I don't really seem to be able to put it into words ;) -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From amani at charter.net Sat Jan 25 17:27:54 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 12:27:54 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gringotts Bank References: Message-ID: <005801c2c497$18793e60$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50595 Ali wrote: <> Sara: I tried searching the archives to make sure I wasn't going over a topic that's been talked to death and couldn't find anything. So, here goes: Why did Sirius, who is Harry's godfather and guardian, allow Hagrid to borrow his motorcycle to take Harry to the Dursley's? Me: I always believed Sirius did this because he obviously must have known Peter was the traitor, but also knew there would be no way for him to prove himself innocent. Sirius /knew/ he was going to be hunted down, so he just lets Hagrid take the bike because he won't be needing it. A flying motorcycle's not the most inconspicuous way to travel--Sirius would do better on foot. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tahewitt at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 17:33:58 2003 From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 09:33:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 2455 In-Reply-To: <1043508974.2986.2147.m6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030125173358.1497.qmail@web14202.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50596 Susanne wrote: ...This reminded me of something I've been seeing frequently, namely that readers are waiting for certain characters to have some kind of breakthrough (Neville and Ron, for example). I like Ron now, rough edges and all, and what if Neville or Ron never find out about any "special" talent to set them apart? Are they then not worthy to be liked? Can Ron only stay friends with Harry and Hermione (or be loved by Hermione) if he becomes more talented? I'm probably being silly, but in RL there are lots of people who never find that special talent. What does it say to them, to read about characters they identify with because of their "normalcy", who then suddenly become "better". It's almost like Eloise with her "off-center" nose. Ron is seen as unworthy to be part of the trio in a way, or be liked by Hermione, because he doesn't show any special magical strength or logical thinking. I'm not sure if I'm getting across what I'm trying to say :} Me: Your message comes through very well! I've always felt that JKR has really done a good job creating Harry, Ron and Hermione. Each of these charecters has qualities that we aspire to or that we can relate to. By giving us a trio of lead charecters with differing backgrounds and abilities, she has allowed a larger number of readers to identify with them. That's probably a good move if you want your books to become popular. As for Ron, I like that he's seemingly an ordinary kid. While I think a lot of kids identify with Harry because he's a hero, I also think that many kids identify with Ron, because they feel 'normal' just like him. I'm not waiting for Ron to blossom into his talents. I think he's talented enough at being Ron. Same goes for Neville. We learned something about Neville's past in GoF that makes us see him in a more sympathetic light. So now we want big things for him. That's fine, but things don't always work out that way, in real life or in fiction. I do think that Neville might be playing a bigger role in future books, but I can't really anticipate what that role might be. We were given info about his parents,and it just seems like that info will be expanded upon. Tyler __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From Ali at zymurgy.org Sat Jan 25 17:36:58 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:36:58 -0000 Subject: Democracy and Prejudice in the WW (WAS: Why do 'purebloods' hate Muggles?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50597 Tom asks in response to Heidi's excellent breakdown of the British governmental system:- >>> So, what you're suggesting is that Fudge is the apointed head of the party of lawmakers that currently holds the majority in the wizard 'parliament,' which ultimately would be an elected body that is answerable to the denizens of the WW?> Follow-up question: does that mean that the appointed head of the party would likewise be responsible for appointing the officers of the other departments (i.e. Arthur Weasley and so forth?)<<< No, these would be "Civil Servants". These positions are effectively non-elected members of the Executive. Likewise, British judges are not elected they are appointed. >>> And one more: we haven't heard of any reference at all to any kind of legislative body in connection with the MoM. All we hear about is the immense beaurocracy and deluge of offices and committees that the MoM appears to be. Would this be standard fare for the UK government? I mean, even here in the states we hear about the Parliament and so forth - in fact (and only marginally OT) I just read a bit this morning about Blair and the House of Lords. But we haven't heard anything about any of this in canon.>>> I suppose that warrants 2 answers. No, we have heard nothing about a WW legislative. We know that Arthur Weasley has written laws, but we don't know who authorises them - my brother has written some English law, but he merely wrote it, it was spearheaded and ultimately agreed by Parliament. We do have a big Civil Service in Britain, and to me, the way the MoM appears to function is not unusual. The absence of a Legislative body would be. > Heidi writes: "...given that in the UK, elections only need be held every five years, unless the party in power calls for an election at another time, and given that in the UK the election cycle is incredibly brief compared to what we have in the US, it would surprise me if we see more than one in canon. If that." And Tom responds: I'm still a little confused about the election process - wouldn't we have heard *something* about an election, any election, at some point in reference to the Fudge/Crouch Minister of Magic bit in GoF? Why? The Potterverse is written from Harry's point of view. He has interaction with the MoM, but has probably got little interest in elections. We have a big problem in the UK at the moment with teenagers not being able to identify with our political system and having more interest in who wins "Big Brother" than who is running our country. Would Harry be that different? Heidi points out: "In the UK, prefects and the Head Boy and/or Girl are generally chosen by the instructors and/or administration. While there are some schools that now have election of prefects, or other systems in place, the traditional setup allowed only for selection by those in authority." And Tom asks: Is this the case in private schools only, or also in the public schools as well? I guess I betray my own position here, as a result of the U.S. public school system, but in my schools we worked firmly from a position of student body elections. There was not even consideration of administration appointees to head the student class. We would have laughed at them. I figured that that's why no one seems to have any respect for the Prefects.>>> I have only ever heard of prefects being choosen by teachers, although it is possible that this is changing. The method of choosing prefects differs from school to school. For instance, most schools would only choose prefects in the 7th year - unlike Hogwarts. But I have heard of schools appointing prefects from the 5th year upwards. Some schools with only a small 6th form (6th and 7th years) make everyone prefects. Before you shrink from what sounds like a lack of democracy, perhaps it's better to explain what a prefect really is. A prefect is effectively an unpaid dogsbody carrying out some organising and team work so that teachers don't have to. It is good for students as it gives them an opportunity to practice leadership. From my experience it would be the popular students and those who have excelled in teamsports who would be choosen as prefects. This is simply because these would command the respect of their fellow pupils. For this reason, I would question Hermione's selection as a prefect, as I have not seen evidence to show that she would command the respect - and therefore the obedience of other students. Although, I feel sure that Hermione will be selected. Ali From tahewitt at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 17:43:55 2003 From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 09:43:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: missing scenes In-Reply-To: <1043508974.2986.2147.m6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030125174355.97929.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50598 marinafrants wrote: This got me thinking about a number of > other "missing scenes" in the books that I would've loved to see. I don't mean things that might theoretically have happened, but things > that canon definitely tells us have happpened, but we never see them or even get a second-hand account of them . Me: The Big Kahuna of all missing scenes: What really happened the night Harry's parents were killed? There have been second hand accounts, but they have been sketchy at best. Tyler __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From selah_1977 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 17:45:31 2003 From: selah_1977 at yahoo.com (Ebony ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:45:31 -0000 Subject: Democracy and Prejudice in the WW ( with slight tinge of FF) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50599 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali " wrote: > > > This is an interesting point. I don't think politics (in the sense > we would understand it) happens. I think that the wizarding community > is too small to have true democracy, and as all the major players > seem to know one another, I suspect that the MoM just gets chosen > according to who the great and good feel would be best at > representing them with Muggle leaders. Which would explain why he > would go and visit Hagrid personally. Great topic, Tom... Heidi, Michelle, and Ali, thanks for your responses, as I'm writing a paper on HP and postcolonialism. So stuff like this fascinates me. Now, admittedly I ought to know more about the UK system of governance, as I'm majoring in nineteenth-century British lit, but I don't. So I have a little question... The Minister of Magic wouldn't really be the equivalent to the Prime Minister, is he? I mean, Britain has lots of other ministers and ministries... after all, wasn't it the Minister of Culture who recently denounced rap and hip-hop? (Smacks him *soundly*--evil, wicked man!) Rather, I've always seen the Ministry as a "hidden" branch of the UK's Muggle government that has an unusual degree of autonomy, but that *someone* in the Muggle government secretly knows about them. I can't remember if I've got canon evidence for this, or if it's just a gut feeling, but I think that wizards and witches are still subjects of the Queen. *Especially* since there doesn't seem to be a completely parallel wizarding world that is autonomous, but just ind. separate institutions. And now that we know there's a wizarding equivalent to the UN, the International Confederation, I wish to point out that it is very likely that wizarding governance varies greatly from country to country. In the AU I created for my fanfiction, the Americans have a Department of Magic, based in DC (but with branch offices in Salem, Mass., New Orleans, and on Indian reservations), the African wizards have a tribal system of council governance that I called the Asili-- "society" in Swahili, and the Chinese are far more oligarchic than I thought the British would be. I have no idea what JKR has in mind, but I am assured from her writing that she realizes the world is a very diverse place, and that wizarding traditions differ from culture to culture. I do think that the Brits occupy the position in the wizarding world that the Brits occupied in the Muggle world 100 years ago, however-- we've discussed it a bit here before, but I tend to think that the Voldemort and Grindelwald things were worldwide affairs and affects wizards and witches to some degree everywhere. I cannot see Tom Riddle's ambitions stopping at the Channel, or the Bosporus, myself. Another thing that I've found interesting is the wizarding world's idea of race and ethnicity. It's my theory that one of the reasons why no one seems to put much stock into race in the books is because the modern concept of race and racism (I know this is hard to believe, but bear with me) is a construct that came into play well after the 1600s schism between the wizarding and Muggle worlds. In fact, you can see it in the British canon--only look at the Romantics' view of the racialized other and compare it to the Victorians. As recently as the 1700s, Africa, the unexplored stretches of the Americas, the Near and the Far East were seen as mystical and wonderful... but by the late 1800s, writers like Conrad, Kipling, Rider Haggard, Henty, etc. portrayed non-European places as strange or the heart of hell. ("The horror, the horror!") And the "savage" (read: racialized Other) went from being noble and fascinating to utterly demonic. So the Ministry of Magic is just another ministry, and it happens to be a very British ting... not to replace the Prime Minister as far as magic is concerned, but as an appointed official under him. How they're appointed, I don't know... and whether the terms run along with Muggle ones is doubtful (as from what I know of the UK, Fudge seems more Thatcher than Blair or the guy who was Minister between those two). Which makes me wonder if there are witch and wizard MPs or local council members. I'd really like the Brits to weigh in more on this. --Ebony From jprobins at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 25 17:45:11 2003 From: jprobins at ix.netcom.com (James P. Robinson III) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 11:45:11 -0600 Subject: Bank Accounts (was Gringotts Bank) In-Reply-To: <1043482601.3222.63270.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030125112420.05400110@popd.ix.netcom.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50600 >"kiricat2001 " wrote: > >But, why would the money in Sirius' account be seized? Does this >happen in the UK - you're convicted of a heinous crime, you go to >prison for life and the government is entitled to take your assets? >And, if that's not the law in the UK, why would people think the MoM >has authority to take Sirius' money out of Gringotts, whether to keep >it or to give it to Sirius' next-of-kin? > >I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure this doesn't happen in the US. >I'd think that Sirius' accounts and real property would simply sit >around until he died. If he, or any convict, died in prison and he >had left a will behind, I'd think the property and money would go to >whoever was specified in the will. And, if he died intestate, with no >next-of-kin, then the MoM could do what they wished with the assets. >Then "Scott Northrup" wrote: >I'm not a lawyer either, but I think that if you're convicted of >"racketerring activity," your assets can be siezed under RICO ("RACKETEER >INFLUENCED AND CORRUPT ORGANIZATIONS") laws, which are mainly in place to >fight organized crime, but I believe the US government has a tendency to be, >uh, flexible with this law. From what I've seen, "racketeering activity" is >somewhat broad: > > Any act or threat involving murder, kidnapping, gambling, arson, >robbery, bribery, > extortion, dealing in obscene matter, or dealing in a controlled > substance or listed chemical (as defined in section 102 of the > Controlled Substances Act), which is chargeable under State law and > punishable by imprisonment for more than one year. > >Maybe someone who IS a lawyer could help us out. Of course, this is only in >the US. I've not the slighest idea if it's similar in the UK. But under US >law, I could easily see Sirius's assets being seized (he was imprisoned >without "trial"), but really, who knows what the MoM is thinking. It's >probably not as simple. For my sins, I am a US lawyer, although I do not specialize in criminal law. There are quite a number of offenses for which conviction can mean that your assets are seized. In some cases, they are simply frozen and in others actually taken by the gub'mint, The most notable of these are RICO, as Scott mentioned, any drug related crime and any terrorism related crime. I believe the UK has some similar provisions. Sirius' "crime" would probably be considered both RICO and terrorism related. Of course, in neither the US nor UK could anyone be sentenced without a trial. Thus, I suspect that wizard law at the time was even less protective of personal rights than ours. Further, at the time of the withdrawal, Sirius was an escaped convict. One of the first things either US or UK police would do when such an important, high profile criminal escaped would have been to monitor his bank account (which would require a warrant, but that would not be an impediment), even if it had never been seized or frozen. So they should have been alerted to the withdrawal, traced it to QQS, traced it to HP and questioned him about it. Even in the unlikely event the police did not do this, US and Canadian (I am not certain about the UK) banks have so-called "know your customer" laws. Any suspicious activity in a bank account is reported. A large withdrawal from an escaped felon's account which has been dormant for 13 years would be mighty suspicious. Admitted this is all extrapolation from muggle criminal law and law enforcement procedures, but I believe it is enough to support the hypothesis that Gringotts is outside MoM jurisdiction. Jim From susannahlm at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 17:48:50 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:48:50 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Banter and other SHIP subjects Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50601 Angua wrote: >yes, I thought that Ron was trying to be funny with "really break >your leg" and "it'll be gone >by next Tuesday" and "bless you" Here we go again. . . 1. Erm. . . you know, since long, *long* before I thought about SHIPping one way or the other, I've always thought that "really break your leg" was meant in all seriousness. I mean, given Ron is talking to his best friend, who nearly died during a prior match, and the guy that (Ron thinks) nearly killed said best friend is going to be refereeing the next Quidditch match. For all the Trio know, "Snape's sudden, sinister desire to become a Quidditch referee" is going to wind up killing Harry. (I love that referee line, btw.) I guess I've never assumed that Ron was joking here. I don't see why he would be. 2. And as for "It'll be gone by next Tuesday," I don't see why you included it in your original post at all. You initially presented these examples as cases of two-sided bantering exchanges between Ron and Hermione. The "It'll be gone by next Tuesday" line isn't an example of Ron and Hermione *anything.* Here's what happened: Harry told Ron and Hermione about the conversation he overheard between Snape and Quirrel. Hermione interrupted him in mid-sentence, and asked: "So you mean the Stone's only safe as long as Quirrel stands up to Snape?" (Hermione is talking to *Harry* here. Harry is the one who was talking, Harry was the one with the knowledge to answer her question. Hermione isn't talking to Ron.) Ron then says, to the other two "It'll be gone by next Tuesday." So, Harry explains situation, Hermione cuts in and asks Harry a question about it, Ron makes a wry, resigned remark about it to Harry and Hermione. How do you get an R/H moment out of *that?* This is a great example of a *Trio* moment actually--with Harry the protagonist; Hermione the precise, summarizing and clarifying; and Ron the guy with attitude, making a smart remark (which I've always enjoyed) about the hopelessness of the situation. 3. "Bless you." Well, yes, I've always assumed Ron was trying to be funny here too, actually. As I said in my previous post, Ron's "Bless you," is an opening for banter if ever there was one. But Hermione doesn't seem to be trying to help Ron be funny, does she? She just continues with her explanation, serious as ever. That was actually my point here. Once again, Ron makes a funny remark, and once again, Hermione ignores him. Right? Right. Angua also wrote: >You are 100% right about one thing. Ron and Hermione's humorous >exchanges have an *edge* to them. There are hurt feelings and danger >there. They don't do bland, inoffensive "witty conversation" in the >manner of Regis and Kathy Lee. Thank God! (Angua, if you were even *insinuating* that I could even *tolerate* Regis and Kathy Lee, then I will personally come beat you to death with a shovel. After all, there *is* a limit.) ; ) Here's my problem with that "edge" explanation. If you're trying to hurt the other person's feelings, then I don't see how it's a "humorous exchange." I'm sorry, but I honestly don't. And if you're *not* trying to hurt the other person's feelings, but you keep doing it anyway, then you probably don't understand the other person very well. Now if Ron and Hermione both enjoyed that sort of thing, then I say, fine. Let 'em have at it. But I really don't see them both enjoying it. Ron does, I think. But I don't know about Hermione. Whcih brings us to. . . well, look. Here's the thing. I would really like for all of us to try and make some progress in this argument, because it really *is* like a hydra. And I personally don't think it's very elucidating. So let me set out a problem for you. -------- FIRST of all, I think we can probably *all* agree that Ron does enjoy (most of the time) his arguments with Hermione. Okay? SECOND, I *think* we can probably all agree on one fairly obvious statement: either Hermione *does* enjoy her exchanges with Ron, or she *doesn't.* Right? Duh. THIRD. Now. If Hermione does enjoy the. . . well, you'd call it "bantering," and I'd call it "bickering," so let's just call it "The Exchanges." Okay? Right. As I was saying, I think we can probably all agree that if Hermione *does* enjoy The Exchanges, then The Exchanges *are not* a problem. (Though they are still evidently unpleasant for other people to listen to, so Ron and Hermione might want to tone it down a bit.) If both Hermione and Ron do enjoy The Exchanges (TE), then TE are simply a good-natured facet of a very frank and open relationship. Then TE are a *positive* thing in their relationship. So that is the R/H position on TE. So on to FOURTH: I think we can probably all agree that if Hermione *doesn't* enjoy TE, then TE *are* a problem. If Ron enjoys TE and Hermione doesn't, then TE are a manifestation of some. . . *disconnect,* some lack of understanding, in their relationship. Then TE are a *negative* thing in their relationship. So that is the H/H position on TE. So then, if Hermione enjoys TE (R/H), then they are a positive thing. If Hermione does not enjoy TE (H/H), then they are a negative thing. Right? Right. Now I *know* why I believe that Hermione doesn't enjoy them: it's the reason that Penny put forward a few posts back. >If [JKR] continues to stress words >like "savagely," "impatiently," "sputtered >indignantly," "acidly," "coldly," "angrily," etc., she might give >us the impression that Ron and Hermione really don't interact very >positively during their "bantering." This is true, Angua. JKR *does* tend to use extremely negative words to describe the way that Hermione reacts to Ron's teasing. (Although I think that that "savagely" actually belonged to Ron; you can scratch that one if you like to.) But my point is that H/Hers have a pretty objective reason for thinking that Hermione doesn't enjoy TE. There are clues in JKR's diction and description to suggest that she doesn't. JKR uses very negative words here. But I *don't* know why you think that Hermione *does* enjoy TE. So please tell me: what *are* you picking up on, in the text--in word choice, description, ect.--that makes you think Hermione enjoys TE? Are there a lot of positive words that JKR also uses in TE situations, that balance/outnumber the negative ones? Derannimer (who means it. *Honestly,* can't we agree on *anything* here?) From melclaros at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 17:48:51 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:48:51 -0000 Subject: Magic Space/Muggle Space??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50602 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "errolowl " wrote: > > > And space can apparently be hidden in a variety of ways. > > Mode 1, Camouflage: > Where you see the spatial extents, but not the contents/ buildings > Eg, Hogwarts > > Much like with Hogwarts, muggles would see merely a deserted > building, a land fill, letter box or some other innocuous item that > they wouldn't give a thought to or be tempted to explore. But > this > kind of misdirection would surely get complicated if a muggle decided > to say, play around on the rubbish heap. The hidden building is still > actually occupying the physical space, but not only should the muggle > not see it, but not feel it or be obstructed by it either if he > actually walks through the space. It's not only visual illusion, > but This one's my favorite. Play around on the rubbish heap, poke around the "haunted house" on the end of the street. We all know a place like this. The house that's been empty FOREVER, the vacant lot that NO ONE can remember anything EVER having been built on it and for that matter that construction site in the middle of the city that's been hidden behind plywood for -- how long? Many of these places are left completely alone. "Someone must own it." "Someone must be building something." Kids won't go near them--even if they try they get within 100 paces then something "scares them off" and they can never tell you what it was. Nine times out of ten they'll run back and tell an older kid who'll tell them the same thing happpend to them years ago...and the same thing happened to their Dad when he was a kid. This type of camouflage is the theory I tend to stick with. The WW has usurped pieces of space and hidden them in plain sight, really. Just like the description of what Hogwarts would look like to a Muggle that wandered up to it. How many muggles walk right past the Leaky Cauldron thinking "One day I'll peek in there."? They never will, if they tried they wouldn't get within peeking distance before something 'spooked' or 'distracted' them. From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jan 25 18:04:26 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 18:04:26 -0000 Subject: Gringotts Bank In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50603 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali " wrote: > Oh course, it's JKR's world, but if it is as simple as keyholding, > where is Sirius' key when his funds are withdrawn? Does an Owl Order contain a key? In fact, Sirius doesn't even say he used an Owl Order, all he says is that Crookshanks took his [Firebolt] order to the Owl > Office. This order used Harry's name but took the gold from Sirius' vault. > > > Kiricat wrote: > > >>> Which doesn't really get to the question of how money is > transferred from the account of a fugitive to a broom merchant. I > suppose if everything is written out correctly on an order form, > with the correct vault indicated, and signed by the owner of the > vault, then, perhaps this is then considered a binding agreement. <<< > > I tend to agree with Steve Bboy, that the Order implies a gift order. Name of recipient X, name of buyer, Y. Perhaps, it is only necessary to quote the vault number, and not give name or signature. This would make Gringott's banking very different to the Muggle World, and open to abuse unless, there is some sort of magical contract of which we are not aware. > > There seems to be two kinds of vaults at Gringotts: the kind Harry has, which is accessed with a key, and the high security vaults, which are numbered, and accessed by letter. Hagrid gives a letter from Dumbledore to the goblin in PS/SS authorizing him to withdraw the "you know what" from vault 713. JKR could have had the numbered accounts of Switzerland in mind for these. Perhaps the Ministry has no authority to force Gringotts to reveal the ownership of numbered vaults, and therefore could not monitor Sirius's vault for activity. As to how Sirius himself gains access without revealing who he is, perhaps the owners of numbered accounts are identified to Gringotts with a password. So Sirius fills out the owl order in the name of Harry Potter, but gives Quality Quidditch Supplies the number of his Gringotts vault (given in the UK edition), and his password. QQS presents the demand, the vault number, and the password to Gringotts, which then transfers the money from Sirius's vault to QQS's. QQS would have no idea that the vault wasn't Harry's, and Gringotts, as long as the password and the vault number match, doesn't care about the name on the order at all. Sirius would have to trust QQS with his password, just as we trust mail order merchants with our credit card info. But I imagine the goblins take very strong measures against those who abuse the system. As for the keys, there is probably some pretty strong mojo on them, too. We know there's a spell that makes keys shrink to nothing--perhaps this was originally developed to discourage thieves. Thief's curses are mentioned in the Schoolbooks. Perhaps a stolen key turns your hand red Pippin From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sat Jan 25 18:13:14 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 18:13:14 -0000 Subject: Flesh of Servant, Hand of Silver (through MDDT eyes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50604 Elkins wrote: >Cindy got all excited about the Gleam again, and in what seemed to be >an attempt to lure the MDDT out of retirement , Alright. Seeming that we have been summoned to appear by Cindy *and* Elkins now, let me put away this fishing rod. Our retirement is almost over anyway now that a certain member will be waking up from his hibernation soon, and he *always* manages to stir things up. :) Cindy quoted Eric Oppen, who once wrote: > > Could one of the side-effects of "flesh of the servant, > > willingly(?) given" in the ritual to re-body-ize Voldemort > > be to give _Wormtail_ some sort of power over Voldemort? > > > Think about it...part of Wormtail is now a big component in > > Voldemort's new body. We've already seen that the magical "law > > of similarity" applies in the Wizard World, what with HP's and > > V's wands being unable to fight each other because they each > > contain a feather from the tail of the same phoenix. Might this > > not apply even more strongly between V-mort and W-tail? So really, is it the fact they share the same flesh that could cause this anomaly? Interesting. Could that not also apply to Harry? Blood is, after all, considered to be more sacred and personal. One does not carry around a vial/box of another person's flesh but of their blood. Though back in the day, mourning jewelry was braided out of the loved one's hair, but that is a bit digressive. If sharing the exactly same flesh is a true problem, then I would think sharing the same blood is too. So if that is the case, then if Wormtail ever rejoined the side of "good", then he can unite with Harry and be invincible against Voldemort. Unless Voldemort commands one of his death eaters (wink to Gail) to kill Wormtail and Harry. You know - that is what happened in the movie Demolition Man. The main bad guy programmed other bad guy Wesley Snipe to not be able to kill him. So what did Snipes do? He told someone else to do it, and the main bad guy fell flat. Now that is a good evil overlord at work. Elkins put her twist into it: > But if I were Voldemort, I'd be even more worried about that *hand.* > > In fact, it seems to me to be formed out of that Special Silvery > wizarding Soul Stuff (tm). You know, the stuff that's in > Dumbledore's Pensieve? The stuff that forms the sigil that > Dumbledore shoots into the air to summon Hagrid in GoF? The stuff > that actually forms ones *patronus?* Good point. That silver stuff is not very common on the books, and seems to symbolize something ethereal and pure desire in the person whether good or bad. Also if it was pure silver, then how could he use it? I have visions of Terminator Two, and that one terminator that could shift shape like molten metal. I always envisioned Peter's hand like that. Elkins: > Now, I'm not altogether sure what that stuff is. But I don't think > that it's exactly *impersonal* stuff, if you know what I mean. It > seems to me that whenever we see the silvery stuff show up, it's > always in relation to something rather spiritual, something deeply > intrinsic to the wizard himself. Oh I see what you are getting at. Voldemort has put himself, via Elkins' trademarked Special Silvery Wizarding Soul Stuff, into Peter too. Oh interesting twist there. So Peter is more evil. He has the touches of Voldemort's, like Voldemort has of Harry's. Oh this is a nice little trio of people we have here. Seems Harry turned out to be the only one not contaminated. Wait - did Wormtail wipe off the knife after he used it to cut his arm off? Ewwww. Ok that may not truly matter, but this "priori incantatem" of bodies could be a fascinating revelation. Especially through the eyes of MD, because Dumbledore knows how each part of this works for his plan. Since he engineered the whole potion, it seems he knew what he was doing to cause Harry's blood to affect Voldemort, and Peter's life dept to affect Voldemort, but did Dumbledore expect Voldemort to have a twinge of mercy on Peter and give him that silvery stuff hand? That might be a jump for Dumbledore to assume he would, but then again, Dishwasher!Dumbledore does try to read Voldie's mind. So *if* Dishwasher!Dumbledore did secretly desire Voldemort to be kind to his rather faithful servant, then we have a Dumbledore that has and knows all the cards. He knows how the magic applies. I wonder how he would use such knowledge. Is he to try to woo Peter back to the good side so he can unite him and Harry against Voldemort now? Granted by Elkins' views on that silvery stuff, Peter is now more evil and thus is really as bad as Voldemort. He has a good, hard dose just introduced into his blood stream, so it seems Peter is not going anywhere. In fact, he might be vying for his evil crown. Hmph - little pathetic Peter being a competitive evil overlord? But if Dishwasher!Dumbledore, did *not* engineer or plan for Voldemort to have that moment of kindness, then this theory could prove problematic for him. I guess it depends on his plans for Peter, though Dumbledore does know Peter has the silvery hand. So, even if he did not expect Peter to get such a gift, he can now make his plans based on that knowledge. Though, if SuperEvil!Peter is equal to Voldemort, it seems then Dumbledore has a battle with two fronts that cannot destroy each other. That is not good. I guess in the end, in terms of the dishwasher, it matters whether Dumbledore wanted Voldemort to bestow a part of himself on Peter. The points of MD, do not say specifically say that it is his wish, but it could have been. Either way, it does not look to good for Voldemort if Eric Oppen's and Elkins' theories are true. He has sacrificed quite a bit to become human again. Why do I have a sudden urge to filk "Human Again" from Beauty and the Beast? ::shrugs:: Melody From michelleapostolides at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jan 25 18:17:25 2003 From: michelleapostolides at yahoo.co.uk (Michelle Apostolides) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 18:17:25 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Democracy and Prejudice in the WW ( with slight tinge of FF) References: Message-ID: <004c01c2c49e$03beada0$19362850@ukf974444> No: HPFGUIDX 50605 Ebony said : Rather, I've always seen the Ministry as a "hidden" branch of the UK's Muggle government that has an unusual degree of autonomy, but that *someone* in the Muggle government secretly knows about them. I can't remember if I've got canon evidence for this, or if it's just a gut feeling, but I think that wizards and witches are still subjects of the Queen. *Especially* since there doesn't seem to be a completely parallel wizarding world that is autonomous, but just ind. separate institutions. I wonder if he would be someone with a peerage, so that he could sit in the House of Lords ? I do think that the Brits occupy the position in the wizarding world that the Brits occupied in the Muggle world 100 years ago, however-- we've discussed it a bit here before, but I tend to think that the Voldemort and Grindelwald things were worldwide affairs and affects wizards and witches to some degree everywhere. I cannot see Tom Riddle's ambitions stopping at the Channel, or the Bosporus, myself. This is a very good and fascinating point. I wonder if we will be able to get a better idea of how wizards cooperate worldwide this time ? So the Ministry of Magic is just another ministry, and it happens to be a very British ting... not to replace the Prime Minister as far as magic is concerned, but as an appointed official under him. How they're appointed, I don't know... and whether the terms run along with Muggle ones is doubtful (as from what I know of the UK, Fudge seems more Thatcher than Blair or the guy who was Minister between those two). Back to my idea of a seat in the House of Lords. I suspect a MOM would be given a life peerage, because I suspect that the Minister does not change in the same way that the government does. This way, he would be able to observe and perhaps influence any laws necessary, because all law goes to the House Of Lords for scrutiny. I think he would sit as a cross-bencher ( not affiliated to any political party ). I think the MoM just gets chosen because the people who are at the top see whoever as a safe pair of hands. Can't quote where and when, but didn't they want Dumbledore to be Minister ? I would take this to mean that there is no ballot as to who gets to be MoM. perhaps they are appointed like French ministers are, based on expertise and not being dependant on their being an elected politician ? Michelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From flamingstarchows at att.net Sat Jan 25 18:51:47 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 12:51:47 -0600 Subject: expelliarmus References: Message-ID: <00f501c2c4a2$d0bd2d00$55084a0c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 50606 From: Tom Wall Still, it's bizarre that a disarming spell could be used to remove a mere diary from Malfoy's hands, since a diary isn't really anything that could be perceived as a weapon. At least, not in most senses of the word. ;-) *** Me: It doesn't seem any more bizarre than Harry using the spell to get the spider to drop him in GoF. It would appear that "Expelliarmus" forces almost any object out of the opponents clutches. ~Cathy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From christi0469 at hotmail.com Sat Jan 25 19:32:45 2003 From: christi0469 at hotmail.com (christi0469 ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 19:32:45 -0000 Subject: Quidditch, Number of Games, & Who Attends In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50607 bboy wrote, (material snipped) > So, I wonder if they used a process of elimination. The two weakest > teams from the year before, play the two strongest teams. Winners of > those two games play each other for the final championship. Total= 3 > games. There is another variation of this, where the two weakest house > play each other. That winner plays the number two ranked team from the > year before, and that winner challenges the previous years winner. > Again, total equals 3 games. That seems closer to the number of games > we hear about. Eliminated teams, don't play anymore games. (more snipped material) my reply- I think the events of PoA make this scenario impossible. Gryffindor plays Hufflepuff, then Ravenclaw, then Slytherin. In a three game season Gryffindor would be excluded from at least one of the games. IIRC there was at least one other game between other houses mentioned in the book, and the Gryffindor's chances for the Quidditch Cup were determined by the point totals. "'So you must only catch it if we're more than fifty points up' Wood told Harry constantly. 'Only if we're more than fifty points up, or we win the match but lose the Cup..." If the Cup is awarded on the basis of points, then all teams should be allowed to play all three other houses. So why doesn't JKR show Harry watching the other houses play? Wouldn't Wood have his players watch the other matches to look for their competitor's strengths and weaknesses? My guess is that Rowling doesn't want to write three more Quidditch matches, so she occassionally writes something to the effect of "Ravenclaw steamrolled Slytherin". Though I would like to see Harry watch one of the other matches, especially one with Slytherin so Harry could comment on Draco's performance. Christi From jodel at aol.com Sat Jan 25 19:48:00 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 14:48:00 EST Subject: Muggle questions Message-ID: <146.8ab7cdd.2b6443f0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50608 Debbie asks: > Now an ignorant question...Hermione mentions that magic and electricity > don't work together. I'm assuming she means just at Hogwarts, right? > Otherwise, wouldn't muggles find it weird that some neighbors only use > candles? > She was talking about Hogwarts, yes. the level of ambient magic at Hogwarts puts electricity, and even some simple Muggle machinery out of order. Evidently, by the time you reach the level of ambient magic present at Hogwarts you are begining to interfere with the working of natural order. Remember that at Hogwarts you not only have a lot of young magicals using magic constantly during the day (More often than an adult wizard will typically be using it in his everyday life) but also all of the wards, protections, and other concealing/controling spells that are in effect at the school, the presence of ghosts and a semi-sentient structure itself. It is possible that other really old wizarding structures may also build up enough of a "charge" of magic to interfere with Muggle devices to some degree. And high-security magical installations would also be expected to have many of the same damping effects that Hogwarts does. The apparant isolation of the Weasleys (and the Diggorys?) may indicate that Ministry officials homes may have additional security measures applied to them. We have a limited viewpoint and no real indication of what may actually be significant yet, but it *could* be significant that the only people we have ever seen show up at the Burrow are either family guests like Harry or Hermione, or actual family members. Arthur and his kids all seem a bit too social in disposition for this to be altogether by choice. As to the other points made; I also think that Rowling has painted with an overly broad brush when it comes to the ignorance of Muggle terms and habits as displayed by "typical" wizards. Particularly in a WW which by her notes is about 25% Muggle-born. It was done for comic effect, but it does not really hold up when examined. Certainly not in context of there being only one all-wizarding village in all of Great Britian and no real way that wizards can stay completely in isolation from Muggles once outside enclaves like Diagon Alley and the like. But we're stuck with it and it is just a bit of disbelief that we are required to suspend. (As to Arthur's being in his particular Ministry position, rather than a Muggle-born wizard who knows something about the artefacts he is overseeing. I think you can thank Fudge and his veneration of "our fine old families". I suspect that Muggle-borns in Fudge's Ministry are constantly knocking themselves out against the "glass ceiling".) -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From elfundeb at comcast.net Sat Jan 25 19:57:32 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 14:57:32 -0500 Subject: SHIP: Authorial intent, Hermione's Secrets, and Ron's Problems References: Message-ID: <001b01c2c4ac$0002d5c0$723b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 50609 David asked some interesting questions that haven't received much in the way of response: > The first is that the text might support variant readings in a way > that is more than just different reader interpretations. I find it > hard to express this without referring to author intent, but then we > do have at least one book definitely to come, and two more > apparently in the pipeline. Hence the subject line of my previous > post. > > So, your exam question: does the text go out of its way (whatever > that means!) to string along opposing shippers? I believe your question was addressed at the shippers, but I still want to answer, because it is exactly why I don't ship, per se. My answer is YES! I don't find either the R/H or the H/H *analysis* of any given scene persuasive, because I think they were intentionally written not to reveal Hermione's feelings or alternatively, to show her feelings as conflicted. To me, every reading of every scene cited to support either ship is equally compatible with a neutral reading (meaning that it has no shipping implications, not that it supports a no-ship) or, in some cases, an opposite reading. For example, the statement that I believe is most often cited by the R/H shippers as unambiguous supporting their ship, "Next time there's a ball, ask me before somebody else does, and not as a last resort!" doesn't say anything about her feelings. Nowhere does it suggest why Hermione is suggesting that he ask her next time. There are three possibilities here: (i) she likes Ron as more than a friend (the R/H position); (ii) she likes Harry but knows she can't go with him since Rita Skeeter reported that Harry has "found love" with her, and she would have liked to spend the ball with her friends; or (iii) same as (ii) except that she likes both of them only as friends. Which is correct? We might as well toss up a coin. I could do the same analysis of the kiss at the end of GoF: (i) she likes Harry and in light of recent events and her overriding concern about Harry, she can't restrain herself; (ii) she likes Ron, who is still standing on the platform, and will kiss him as well; or (iii) the kiss was a platonic gesture. Same result: it's impossible to tell what Hermione really means by her action. >Is the ambiguity in > Hermione, JKR, or her readers? I think this ambiguity is all JKR's. Whether it is plot-related or whether it has to do with the fact that (as she's stated) Hermione is based a good deal on herself, she has created a character that I suspect we don't know quite as well as we think we do. We see clues in her behavior that we can use to extrapolate from. However, we don't get much direct insight about how she feels, in contrast to Harry, whose feelings we know because the story is told from his POV, or Ron, who's easy to read from his actions. I think that many of us readers tend to identify very strongly with Hermione, especially on this list. Many of us see in her ourselves at a similar age; plus, having been raised in the muggle world, her reactions to the WW often reflect our own point of view. We therefore unconsciously project ourselves into her character and, as others have said, become emotionally involved in her actions. My point, however, is that JKR seems to have avoided revealing a great deal about Hermione besides whether she likes one of her two best friends as more than a friend. For example, she hasn't even told us about Hermione's wand. We don't know what her greatest fear is. Yes, we did see her panic in the DADA exam, and we know she had an irrational fear of failing her exams. But a person's greatest fears (like a person's greatest desires) change over time. Harry didn't see the same thing in the Mirror of Erised in June that he saw in December. What he saw in June, in a moment of crisis, was focused on the particular crisis. Likewise, we don't know what the boggart would have turned into in September if Hermione had been given a chance to face it. We don't know what Hermione's relationship is with other female characters, for example, what kind of mentoring she gets from McGonagall, or whether she has a real friendship with Ginny, or with anyone in her dormitory. We see *only* interaction that Harry sees and that JKR chooses to show us. And Hermione doesn't spend on-screen time talking about herself. She talks to Harry and Ron about things she's learned or seen, or about them, or problem-solving. So, we learn how she *thinks* more than how she *feels*. This is very consistent with her character, of course. She was able to keep the secret of the time-turner quite well. I have no doubt that she has many other secrets, that JKR is deliberately keeping them hidden from us, and that Hermione will be the agent of many more text surprises than just the time-turner episode, none of which will have anything to do with shipping. >The second concerns the implication of one answer, which is approximately the one Amy and Penny give. This is to look at Hermione's choice as essentially undetermined at this stage (ie at any point in the first four books) and look at how events may be shaping her choices. IMO most shipping discussion about specific incidents such as the Yule Ball focuses on what they *reveal* about Hermione's current state of mind. I think it might be an > interesting endeavour to looks at how they might *affect* her > ongoing state of mind. > > So, a starter: can you support from the text a shipping position in > which Hermione is torn and trying to sort out how she feels? Do you > feel that the difficulty of knowing her true feelings is because she > conceals them, or because she is still forming them? > I believe it's important to the narrative that we *not* know Hermione's true feelings and that we believe that any result is plausible. We know she likes both of her best friends (despite her frequent irritation at Ron in GoF). I have my doubts whether, at this stage, her feelings for either one have moved beyond storge to eros, but the text allows us to think that either is possible. This allows JKR to use Hermione as a sort of ace in the hole in her romance subplot. >For example, that we have what I think of as a post- >modern situation in which we would have two equally valid endings as >happens with some books. I think both endings *are* equally valid based on what we find within the text to this point (I also see a no-ship ending as quite valid, and equally if not more satisfactory, but will set that aside, since it wasn't the focus of David's question.) My reasons for betting on the R/H ship have less to do with the characters, though, than with my sense of the development of the series' themes. The series is many things, one of which is a coming of age story. It's primary Harry's story, but Harry's own journey to adulthood is compared and contrasted against the similar journeys his companions and classmates are undergoing at the same time, with particular focus on Ron, Hermione, and IMO Neville and Draco (this last is based on my expectation that Draco can be expected to receive further character development in OoP, as Neville received in GoF). We *know* that H/H is a valid ending and consistent with the story to date regardless of anyone's present state of mind, simply because Harry is the hero, the story is his journey, and we've been told by JKR that she considers the series to be a moral work. Therefore, we can make certain assumptions about his development and suitability. Despite the textual evidence of Ron's feelings, we don't have similar assurances regarding R/H. That's because of where JKR has left Ron at this point in the text -- with many readers believing that he has lost his way and has fallen behind. However, looking at the series from the outside (rather than trying to look for evidence of the characters' present feelings and suitability), I think it's impossible to dismiss R/H on this basis. Because this is a novel and not real life, I don't see Ron overcoming his crush and then moving aside in favor of H/H, especially considering where JKR has left him at this point (though I'd be happy to see that happen without H/H). Instead, I see R/H's likelihood as depending on what JKR has in mind for Ron as a character, not on anyone's present feelings. In other words, the issue is not what Hermione's choice will be. It's how Ron's choices would influence Hermione's choice. There are a lot of possible places JKR can take Ron based on his development to date: First, she could be using Ron's growing pains simply as a plot device. Though I like him very much as a character, I confess that when I put down GoF after my first reading my reaction was that Ron was on the road to evil. In other words, I was set up perfectly for an Evil!Ron Under Imperius!plot device in OotP, and had I been able to pick up OoP right away, in the same manner as I read the first four books, I would certainly have fallen for Imperius!Ron. So this is a very real possibility that could be written with the same kind of plot twist surprises that we saw in PoA. Second, she could make Ron turn to evil of his own volition. On rereading GoF, I concluded that his sense of loyalty is too strong for Evil! Ron, but JKR has not written the text so clearly as to preclude an outcome in which Ron falls victim to his jealousy and his insecurities and does something from which he cannot recover in the eyes of his friends. Third, he could die (or one of the others could die). This would resolve the shipping issue rather neatly. Fourth, and perhaps in combination with Imperius!Ron, he could address all of his emotional baggage that he's carrying around in a satisfactory manner. Scenarios 2 and 3 leave the road clear for H/H. However, my bet is on 4 with a side helping of 1 (a scenario that would reveal to Ron the danger of his passivity). That's based primarily on my belief that there is a thematic reason and a plot reason that JKR has spent so much time developing Ron's fears and contrasting his development with Harry's. There are also sub-issues that, I think, favor resolution 4. For example, take an issue as WW prejudice, much of which is established for us through the Ron-Hermione dynamic. My expectation is that this issue will evolve with Hermione realizing that her black-and-white analysis is too simplistic ("It's the same prejudice that people have toward werewolves . . . . It's just bigotry, isnt' it?") and Ron reexamining his received prejudices, as his reaction to Hagrid's half-giant status suggests ("'Well, they're . . . they're . . .' Ron struggled for words. ". . . not very nice,' he finished lamely.") This is nicely set up and would have to be dropped like a hot potato if Ron simply turns out to be evil. I don't believe that scenario #4 necessarily entails Ron "winning the girl" as a reward. However, I do have trouble with #4 and H/H happening in tandem. Since this story is Harry's, and since JKR has clearly revealed to us what Ron's feelings for Hermione are, I just don't see him winning the struggle with himself and then conceding the girl to the hero. It contracts the Trio into a duo and a hanger-on, rather than both Ron and Hermione as equal best friends with the hero and with each other, and I would find that thematically very unsatisfying. Nor do I see Ron's struggle as one where he learns to accept an inferior role in the Trio; his growth, assuming that it comes, will come from coming to realize that he is *not* inferior but that he can't succeed unless he believes in himself. This theme is established for us when he says, gloomily, on the train to Hogwarts, "You could say I've got a lot to live up to. . . . Everyone expects me to do as well as the others, but if I do, it's no big deal, because they did it first." To me, that quote indicates that he is perfectly well talented. That he appears to be falling behind in GoF is all a part of his own self-perception; what he needs to learn is that some of the things that make him feel inferior, such as wealth and fame, are simply unimportant, and that the real question is what he chooses to do with himself. As a result, I have exactly the same demands for OotP as Ebony does: "I want a subplot that is tied into the main that is All About Ron, his abilities, and what his place in the narrative is. I'm not satisfied with the usual answers. I want more about Ron, independent of Hermione (who's gotten far more narrative space in the last two books than I would have thought given supposed future R/H)... and as something other than his associations with people (Weasley son; Harry's best friend)." One final thought on David's "two valid endings." If JKR chose *not* to ship the Trio to one another within the four corners of the series, but to conclude it with the Trio as still (or perhaps again) best friends, would that not allow us to continue to view either ship as valid? Or any other ship? Or no ship? The more I think about this, the more I think that would be the best possible result. I'd still put my money on R/H, but not till the very end of the series. Debbie who had less self-confidence than Neville at that age [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 17:33:42 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:33:42 -0000 Subject: Democracy and Prejudice in the WW ( slight movie reference ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50610 Ali writes: "The question remains about whether the WW is democratic. I think that JKR has probably made it deliberately ambiguous. However, if you believe, as I do, that all the magically able receive a magical education in a very liberal environment, it is then hard to believe that these people would have no interest in how they are governed." Tom replies: I agree that one would THINK that the WW's populace should have some kind of an interest in how things are run, although their antiquated way of operating things far from reflects that. There's a canon passage that comes to mind: when Fudge is telling Hagrid that he's off to Azkaban under suspicion of opening the Chamber of Secrets: "Look at it from my point of view," said Fudge, fidgeting with his bowler. "I'm under a lot of pressure. GOT TO BE SEEN TO BE DOING SOMETHING." [emphasis is my own] (CoS 261) WHY does Fudge have to appear to be doing something? WHO is he answerable to? WHAT could the consequences be for the appearance of inaction? The answers are unclear, at best, although I submit that he could easily be just as answerable to 1) a small group of elites, as he could be to 2) the members of his party, or even 3) the populace at large. And still, although our own muggle history suggests that it's possible, even likely, for liberal democracies to discriminate against minorities under certain circumstances, I still hold to the view that it's extremely uncharacteristic of a modern, liberal democracy to hold to so many tenets of prejudice (re: house-elves, giants, mudbloods, and muggles.) So, IF the WW holds to any kind of current, UK based parliamentary system, it would appear to me that their application of it is entirely out-of-step with the modern era that serves as our setting. -Tom From chpdel at adelphia.net Sat Jan 25 17:53:52 2003 From: chpdel at adelphia.net (Tiff & Del) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 12:53:52 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:missing scenes References: <20030125174355.97929.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <025901c2c49a$b8f58120$18e73018@pit.adelphia.net> No: HPFGUIDX 50611 <> From: Tyler Hewitt Me: The Big Kahuna of all missing scenes: What really happened the night Harry's parents were killed? There have been second hand accounts, but they have been sketchy at best. Tyler<> Oh I am sure we will read that scene at some point in all of this... One scene that I thought of was what *exactly* went down when the Dursleys found baby Harry on their doorstep- how did they all react, what was said...was there a letter from DD? how long did they take to decide to keep him??? and how was he treated when he was small by Petunia..was he ignored? abused? I know that this follows the whole 'hero' theme(he has to have a difficult childhood etc and so forth) It just makes me curious! Tiff Scientists say 1 out of every 4 people is crazy, check 3 friends, if they are ok, you're it [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat Jan 25 18:54:56 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 18:54:56 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Petunia/wizards/muggles etc References: <1043458284.2862.58807.m15@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000601c2c4a3$436374e0$5f4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 50612 > Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 02:49:57 -0800 (PST) > From: alex fox > Subject: Re: Petunia as squib > > > manawydan's post scared me! Does this mean that possibly Lilly Evens-Potter could be of >mixed blood? According to Hagrid, this is very common, which means that Dudley, of all people, >could have some magical tendencies!! A frightening thought indeed! Well of course Lily and Petunia are sisters - Lily had the magic talent, Petunia didn't - there's been a lot of discussion recently not only about how Petunia felt about it but also whether Dudley might be a wizard after all. It's quite explicit not only that wizards come of mixed blood but also that two muggle parents can have a wizard child (cf Hermione) which suggests that the wizard gene can remain hidden in the family tree and pop up randomly. One further piece of speculation though. If wizards and muggles form relationships, how do they meet? Most wizards seem to live in a wholly separate frame of reference and are totally unfamiliar with muggle concepts so that most of the normal avenues for social contact would seem to be closed - so how would they get together in the first place? Even scarier piece of speculation - would Death Eaters use the Imperius spell for the purposes of date rape? Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat Jan 25 19:08:17 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 19:08:17 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Electricity References: <1043482601.3222.63270.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000b01c2c4a5$1e1f2240$5f4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 50613 > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 02:47:18 -0000 > From: "Debbie " >Subject: Re: Muggle Questions Was: McGonagall the snoop > >Now an ignorant question...Hermione mentions that magic and >electricity don't work together. I'm assuming she means just at >Hogwarts, right? Otherwise, wouldn't muggles find it weird that some >neighbors only use candles? I don't think that the muggles would worry too much about their neighbours first of all because a wizard family would have magical sources of illumination rather than candles - and if you see a lighted window in your neighbour's house, how closely would you look to check that it's coming from an electric light - especially if the curtains are drawn! Secondly I think that a wizard's house would have some sort of "Don't-Notice-Me" spell on it so that the neighbours' attention would just slide over how it was lit without it registering. But the electricity one is a bit more difficult. There are going to be a lot of families, for example, where one of the couple is a wizard, and therefore using spells all the time, and the other is a muggle, and therefore using "technology" all the time - how can they exist under the same roof if every time the wizard uses a spell, it blows out all the electrics! Similarly, there are places like the Leaky Cauldron and Kings Cross station where there are boundaries between the two worlds. There's no suggestion in the books that every time someone does a spell in the Cauldron that all the traffic in the street outside suddenly suffers electrical failure... Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat Jan 25 19:18:11 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 19:18:11 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magic space? References: <1043482601.3222.63270.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001001c2c4a6$809419c0$5f4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 50614 Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 04:46:08 -0000 From: "Steve " Subject: Magic Space/Muggle Space??? >I assume that Diagon Alley is in what I call Magic Space; a physically >world that is separate from the normal world which I will call Muggle >Space. But I have to wonder, how big is this Magic Space and where and >how does it end? >We know that the Magic City extends beyond Diagon Alley since there >are other magic places we have heard about; Knockturn Alley, the >Ministry office, St. Mungos Hospital, etc.... Having said that, I have >to wonder how big it is and what do you see when you reach the edge of >it's boundaries? There's a big question to be answered on that: if there's a magic space that extends outside the physical dimensions of the planet, then why would wizards have needed to coexist with muggles at all, especially if the dimensions of magical space are indefinite? The wizard community decided to subject itself to all manner of onerous and all embracing restrictions to make sure that they kept secret - why do that if there's an alternative? >A lot of questions, but very few answers. I guess it depends on >whether you consider the area behind the Leaky Cauldron to be a >physical space that in muggle London is just a gap between the Leaky >Cauldron and the building behind it which is bigger on the inside/the >magic side than it is on the outside/the muggle side, or if you are >stepping through a gateway into another world. I think there would have to be limits on how far a space stretching spell would go - you can do it on a Ford Anglia - and possibly on the Hogwarts Express, but doing it on an entire district might be beyond the spell's capability. I tend to think that places like Diagon Alley and other wizard spaces in urban areas are places that muggles just don't notice, if a muggle looks at them, their eyes just slide over it. Presumably that would have to work with representations of the area also so that if a muggle looked at a satellite photograph of London, once again the eyes would slide over the "wizards' mall" without it registering. And the same would be true of Hogwarts and its environs. The same would be true for other wizard places, such as the Ministry - though I strongly suspect that it's located on Whitehall somewhere! Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat Jan 25 19:48:18 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 19:48:18 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Democracy and prejudice References: <1043508974.2986.2147.m6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001e01c2c4aa$b60599e0$5f4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 50615 > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 10:15:57 -0000 > From: "Tom Wall " >Subject: Democracy and Prejudice in the WW (WAS: Why do 'purebloods' hate Muggles?) >Consider: The Ministry of Magic. From what we know, the MoM is the >sole arbiter and source of ALL policies in the British WW. I mean, >we've never heard of any kind of referendum to "the people" in order >to determine any kind of policy. I don't have GoF handy, but Indeed so. WW has been quite accurately and consistently drawn as a perfect bureaucracy. >So, anyways, if people are "appointed" to these posts, who exactly >does the appointing? Is there ever, ever, a mention in canon of >wizarding elections? Not that I can recall. Probably a Board or committee of the other senior officials - perhaps the Heads of Department. The post wouldn't necessarily be limited to an existing Head of Department - Arthur Weasley isn't Head of Dept but Dumbledore makes the comment that he should have been chosen as Minister - but would certainly be limited to Ministry wizards of considerable seniority. If the MoM is anything like an English civil service department (and it certainly seems to be like one of about 50 years ago) then the successful candidate would be someone who had worked their way up the ranks and had unswerving loyalty to the Ministry and its internal culture - which most Ministry wizards seem to have anyway. >Is the WW so far behind the muggle world that they actually have no >democracy? Possibly a wizard would find muggle concepts of democracy as sinister and frightening as we would find the thought of being ruled by the Ministry. The only "alternative" political philosophy we've seen is the Death Eater one which certainly doesn't have any democratic element. I suspect that most wizards would see some sort of anarchy as the only _positive_ alternative to the Ministry. There _are_ references however to decisive fora that are over and above the bureaucracy. Professor Binns has given us fascinating hints about Wizarding Congresses - which would of course be the only possible method of making major decisions. Similarly, the trial scene in "Goblet" was the logical _judicial_ counterpart - a tribunal! >But doesn't it strike anyone as odd that there aren't (so far) any >mentions of ELECTED student posts? Certainly if the positions of There is no tradition of elected student posts in the UK - that certainly didn't strike me as odd. >comes to bias. Sure, I will give credit where credit is due and >concede that "race," or perhaps better referred to as "skin color" >doesn't seem to be a major issue. Nor any suggestion of "ethnic cleansing" or anything like that. I can picture wizards in those times and places shaking their heads sadly over "those dreadful things that muggles do to each other". >That aside, consider: >- the ongoing enslavement of the disenfranchised house elves. What sort of franchise are they being denied though? And _are_ they _enslaved_ as we (or Hermione) would understand the word? Isn't it just their nature to be attached to a house or establishment and to do the domestic work? They seem to be horrified by any alternative setup - see comments above over democracy vs bureaucracy... >- the "goblin rebellions." What were they rebelling against? I wonder about goblins also. How does Goblin World operate? > "At the end of GoF it's stated that Weasley hasn't been promoted up >the Ministry because he's too sympathetic to Muggles, which rather >implies that actual Muggles wouldn't stand a chance. We aren't I don't think a muggle would be eligible to join the Ministry >In fact, in some ways, aren't the Death Eaters the WW equivalent to >the KKK? They run around in secret attacking those who >are "different" on the basis of quantifiable characteristics, like >lineage? Oh, and whether or not they pose a threat to the status quo. I think the DEs are certainly trying to overthrow the status quo, but to replace it with a Voldemortian one in which he would be top wizard, his sidekicks would have some sort of fiefdoms each and in which muggles (and possibly even other wizards) would be enslaved. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From kristen at sanderson-web.com Sat Jan 25 20:47:56 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (gkjpo ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 20:47:56 -0000 Subject: Petunia/wizards/muggles etc In-Reply-To: <000601c2c4a3$436374e0$5f4d6551@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50616 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" > Well of course Lily and Petunia are sisters - Lily had the magic talent, > Petunia didn't - there's been a lot of discussion recently not only about > how Petunia felt about it but also whether Dudley might be a wizard after > all. > Yes a truely scary thought. I vaguely remember a quote from JKR at some point saying that someone will discover late in life that they are capable of magic. Could it be Dudley or Petunia? Hmmm. > > One further piece of speculation though. If wizards and muggles form > relationships, how do they meet? Most wizards seem to live in a wholly > separate frame of reference and are totally unfamiliar with muggle concepts > so that most of the normal avenues for social contact would seem to be > closed - so how would they get together in the first place? We just sort of discussed this on another thread (don't worry, I didn't expect you to have read it :). The question there being how come the wizards didn't know how to dress like muggles at the World Cup if they live mostly intermingled. Steve's answer was that wizards live in their own little enclaves. They live in the muggle world, but either live out in rural areas away from others (e.g. The Burrow) or live in a separate area where they keep to themselves (like Chinatown). Either way, they don't mix much. The wizards that are half and half probably do have more sense of how to dress and how to survive in the muggle world. To answer your question, I would guess that those that live in partial-muggle households are more likely to intermingle. Families with squibs may also intermingle more as they may have a member that associates with muggles (e.g. the Weasly accountant - though granted they don't mix much with him). With the wizard world and the muggle world living together, chances to meet are inevitable. What they do with those chances are up to them. > > Even scarier piece of speculation - would Death Eaters use the Imperius > spell for the purposes of date rape? This is scary, but as these are "children's books" I'm going to make a strong guess that the subject won't come up. For a technical answer, I would guess that this is not an option as it may breed more half-blood wizards - something DEs don't like. Kristen From christi0469 at hotmail.com Sat Jan 25 20:57:00 2003 From: christi0469 at hotmail.com (christi0469 ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 20:57:00 -0000 Subject: Elections in the Wizarding World (or lack thereof) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50617 It might be that the wizarding world selects its officials in some completely unique way due to the availability of magic. If the TriWizard champions are chosen by a completely impartial judge-the Goblet of Fire-it's entirely possible that there is an impartial method of "electing" ministers. It would have to take into account public opinion though, since Barty Crouch Sr's political future was undermined because of scandal. I just thought about another impartial judge that we've seen-the Sorting Hat. It places students based on evidence pulled from the students themselves. If the Sorting Hat was biased Gryffindor would probably win everything, as it was Godric Gryffindor's hat and would pick all the best students for his house (unless, of course, it had reason to dislike him). Prefects could also be chosen by such an impartial judge, or for that matter could be chosen on the quantifiable basis of marks or house points gained vs lost. Christi From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 21:46:57 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 13:46:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Gleam (Was Re: Flesh of Servant, Hand of Silver (through MDDT eyes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030125214657.7730.qmail@web40509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50618 Melody wrote: Cindy quoted Eric Oppen, who once wrote: > > Could one of the side-effects of "flesh of the servant, > > willingly(?) given" in the ritual to re-body-ize Voldemort > > be to give _Wormtail_ some sort of power over Voldemort? > > > Think about it...part of Wormtail is now a big component in > > Voldemort's new body. We've already seen that the magical "law > > of similarity" applies in the Wizard World, what with HP's and > > V's wands being unable to fight each other because they each > > contain a feather from the tail of the same phoenix. Might this > > not apply even more strongly between V-mort and W-tail? Me: I'm reading this discussion with interest, and I think I'll add something which might have been mentioned before (but don't eat me for it). OK. Voldemort has Peter's blood in him. But Peter has a lift-debt to Harry. So, could it be that *Voldemort* now has a life-debt to Harry as well? Umm... this was shorter than I thought it would be. :) Any thoughts? Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lilypotter at gosympatico.ca Sat Jan 25 21:31:06 2003 From: lilypotter at gosympatico.ca (hedwigpotter2003 ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 21:31:06 -0000 Subject: Petunia a squib Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50619 On the topic of the Evans family, a thought has crossed my mind. Who is not normal after all ? Petunia and Vernon are often referring to the abnormality of witches and wizards. How they despise everything and anything that is "abnormal" or yet, the "unnaturalness" (GoF p.35)of the WW. They are "touchy ...about anything even slightly "out of the ordinary" (GoF, p33). The theme comes back everytime the Dursley's are around. Finally, (one more canon before I make my point), Petunia's reaction to her parents'pride in having a witch in the family and going on and on about it after Lily received her Hogwarts letter is, to say the least, venomous. Petunia recalls how she was the only one to see Lily for what she really was: a monster. This visceral need for "normalcy", the fear of anything from the WW could be because, in the Evans family, there was shame for not having a real wizard among them, as it should have been. Remember how ashamed Filch is when he thinks Harry may have found out he's not a "proper wizard"(CoS p.98). It seems that not being a " proper wizard" can be the source of shame. And, the Evans family could have been more then squibs, they could have been born muggles in a wizard family. Parents may have demonstrated shame of their inabilities and passed that shame on to their children. To not have been like the others in the family and traditional family social setting. Ashame of not being complete. How excited they would have been indeed to discover finally they had a perfectly capable witch as a daughter, witch enough to get invited into Hogwarts. Her abilities may have been hidden all this time because of lack of role models in her direct family (again, we don't know what happened to the grand-parents). And her muggle/squib parents would not have been able to help bring her abilities out either. The "abnormalcy" in the family could have been in fact to not be full wizards. How extremely hurtful for Petunia to have to live with this inherited shameful state while her sister is the embodiment of the family's deepest desire. As an grown independent woman she would have chosen to separate herself from this source of shame and have espoused the MW completely, where she IS normal. Anything "out of the ordinary" would very much bring back this awful state of being labelled. In MW, she and her new family can live a normal life and never be lebelled as anything different. Harry would not only have been a reminder of those awful days but definitely a threat to their perfect blending in muggle society, away from all that is strange. Their hate for him has been driven by fear of what was and what could be again. Hedwig who is finally getting her wings wet. From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 21:48:16 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 13:48:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Elections in the Wizarding World (or lack thereof) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030125214816.64457.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50620 Christie wrote: It might be that the wizarding world selects its officials in some completely unique way due to the availability of magic. If the TriWizard champions are chosen by a completely impartial judge-the Goblet of Fire-it's entirely possible that there is an impartial method of "electing" ministers. It would have to take into account public opinion though, since Barty Crouch Sr's political future was undermined because of scandal. I just thought about another impartial judge that we've seen-the Sorting Hat. It places students based on evidence pulled from the students themselves. If the Sorting Hat was biased Gryffindor would probably win everything, as it was Godric Gryffindor's hat and would pick all the best students for his house (unless, of course, it had reason to dislike him). Prefects could also be chosen by such an impartial judge, or for that matter could be chosen on the quantifiable basis of marks or house points gained vs lost. Me What you said about selecting officials is probably true a lot of the time, but not, I think entirely. Look at the group who governs Hogswarts. They were able to expel Mr. Malfroy which is an inherently political task. They also suspended Dumbledore for a day or two and I'm sure could have selected a successor although that process is not actually spelled out in the book. Also in the first book, Hagrid told Harry concerning the Ministry of Magic that "they wanted Dumbledore fer Minister o' course, but he'd never leave Hogwarts, so old Cornelius Fudge got the job." Well, first "they wanted" sounds like a "political" and not a magical appointment. Also, no magical selection process would have stuck the ministry with an idiot like Fudge! Of course it's highly likely that a lot of these details are evolving with the book series and J.K. Rowling really hadn't thought out all the ramifications and little nuances when the series was started. After all, having never had any book published before, she couldn't have really known the incredible spell her storytelling would weave on the world wide public. Huggs Becky Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 22:09:52 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 14:09:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:missing scenes In-Reply-To: <20030125174355.97929.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030125220952.28010.qmail@web40504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50621 Marina wrote: This got me thinking about a number of > other "missing scenes" in the books that I would've loved to see. I don't mean things that might theoretically have happened, but things > that canon definitely tells us have happpened, but we never see them or even get a second-hand account of them . Me: I'd love to see all the circumstances of the Prank, and what happened after it. I would also immensely enjoy having a picture of Snape's Challnge in PS in addition to the riddle itself, so that I could solve it myself. What about staff meetings (if they have them, of course) during CoS? Lockhart's presence would make them great. Lucius Malfoy comes home after CoS and tells his wife: "Narcissa, I have just freed our house-elf. You'll have to make dinner now, and Draco will take over the laundry." Or something to that effect. I wonder what Lucius is like at home. What else? Oh, yes. It's not really a missing scene, but it would be so cool to find out what went on in Lupin's mind when he saw the slashed Fat Lady's portrait. Maria, who thinks that "MWPP's Adventures" would be a good title for a book JKR could write after finishing HP (not that it's likely to happen in the near future) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From michelleapostolides at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jan 25 22:49:46 2003 From: michelleapostolides at yahoo.co.uk (Michelle Apostolides) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 22:49:46 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Elections in the Wizarding World (or lack thereof) References: <20030125214816.64457.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006801c2c4c4$0fefc0c0$19362850@ukf974444> No: HPFGUIDX 50622 Becky said : What you said about selecting officials is probably true a lot of the time, but not, I think entirely. Look at the group who governs Hogswarts. They were able to expel Mr. Malfroy which is an inherently political task. They also suspended Dumbledore for a day or two and I'm sure could have selected a successor although that process is not actually spelled out in the book. Me Ok, this is where you need to define politics. I see those decisions as easy. They're about right or wrong. In fact, boards of governors of private schools in the UK ( I'm a Brit ) are quite autonomous. Again, Becky : Also in the first book, Hagrid told Harry concerning the Ministry of Magic that "they wanted Dumbledore fer Minister o' course, but he'd never leave Hogwarts, so old Cornelius Fudge got the job." Well, first "they wanted" sounds like a "political" and not a magical appointment. Also, no magical selection process would have stuck the ministry with an idiot like Fudge! Me Hmm.....now we're really talking semantics. I think you mean that his appointment was not done by democracy - as in a vote of some sort ? I don't think that the WW is so very primitive that they would trust their leadership to pure magic, because they are not ( in some respects ) so very far removed from UK society. By this I mean that they judge by personality, not wizarding ability. Michelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cmsore at wm.edu Sat Jan 25 22:17:36 2003 From: cmsore at wm.edu (blauemeanies ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 22:17:36 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Banter and other SHIP subjects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50623 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "derannimer " > wrote: > > So let me set out a problem for you. > >-------- > > FIRST of all, I think we can probably *all* agree that Ron does > enjoy > (most of the time) his arguments with Hermione. > > Okay? > > SECOND, I *think* we can probably all agree on one fairly obvious > statement: either Hermione *does* enjoy her exchanges with Ron, or > she *doesn't.* > > Right? > > Duh. > > THIRD. Now. If Hermione does enjoy the. . . well, you'd call > it "bantering," and I'd call it "bickering," so let's just call > it "The Exchanges." Okay? > > Right. > > As I was saying, I think we can probably all agree that if Hermione > *does* enjoy The Exchanges, then The Exchanges *are not* a problem. > (Though they are still evidently unpleasant for other people to > listen to, so Ron and Hermione might want to tone it down a bit.) > If > both Hermione and Ron do enjoy The Exchanges (TE), then TE are > simply > a good-natured facet of a very frank and open relationship. Then TE > are a *positive* thing in their relationship. > > So that is the R/H position on TE. > > So on to FOURTH: I think we can probably all agree that if Hermione > *doesn't* enjoy TE, then TE *are* a problem. If Ron enjoys TE and > Hermione doesn't, then TE are a manifestation of some. . . > *disconnect,* some lack of understanding, in their relationship. > Then > TE are a *negative* thing in their relationship. > > So that is the H/H position on TE. > > So then, if Hermione enjoys TE (R/H), then they are a positive > thing. > If Hermione does not enjoy TE (H/H), then they are a negative > thing. > > Right? Right. > > Now I *know* why I believe that Hermione doesn't enjoy them: it's > the > reason that Penny put forward a few posts back. > >If [JKR] continues to stress words >like "savagely," "impatiently," "sputtered >indignantly," "acidly," "coldly," "angrily," etc., she might give >us the impression that Ron and Hermione really don't interact > very >positively during their "bantering." > Derannimer (who means it. *Honestly,* can't we agree on *anything* > here?) I guess, for me, part of the reason I think Hermione does like "The Exchanges" is because, to me, her basic personality is an abrasive one, quite possibly the second most abrasive one after Snape. It is the type of personality that makes most people instinctively avoid hanging around with her. She has a very clear "I-know-more-than-you- do-so-you'd-better-just-do-it-my-way-now" type attitude towards everyone but teachers, who she still believes know more than her. She is a bossy know-it-all and stubborn and this leads her into conflict whether she likes it or not. You can see it in her argueing with the House-elves and not listening (argueing with a sobbing Winky, jeesh). You can see it in the cause of the Firebolt incident where the fact that she didn't even stop to share her suspicions and went straight to the teacher where I always get the feeling that this backstabbing element was a key cause to the fight (not the only, but key). You can see it in her arguements with Harry (yes they mostly happen when Ron isn't there and Harry is under stress, but I'll get to it later). Her blunt, slightly arrogant manner is one that invites confrontation rather strongly, and if confrontations such as the ones that she has in TE cause her very serious pain, I don't see her as being able to function happily in the world, and I'd like the characters to be happy. I also see that she can't help and knows she can't help her abrasiveness. To me, the reason she was crying in the bathroom is that she knows that not everyone likes her and that she rubs them the wrong way and she doesn't like it that way. If she could be slightly more polite or reserved or less of a talking almanac and people would like her, she would. She knows she's like this and she can't help it. And that is why it is so important that she is continueing like this and that Ron and Harry are now her friends. But there could be a slight undercurrent in the exchanges that could give her doubts with regards to Ron, that he still doesn't like her, which leads to some pain. But it is also becoming highly obvious to both the reader and to Hermione that yes, yes he definitely does like her and this robs them of much or their sting and the only problem now is getting him to admit it. But if she can't handle the teasing type of confrontation (and yes it is most assuredly teasing else why would he yell at Snape for calling her a bossy know-it-all when he calss her that sixteen times a day) that she gets from Ron, in my opinion she needs Neville and definitely not Harry. Neville has shown many inclinations that he can be a relationship with such a dominating person and that, in a way, he derives some pleasure out of her leading him. Maybe this comes from his feelings that he needs this help, that he truely is helpless, but he seems to really like it when she is a bossy-know-it- all to him, and isn't annoyed by it at all. I've always seen my reactions and Harry's as very similar when dealing with an abrasive personality like Hermione's, so I could be reading a lot more into it. Smile, nod, grit your teeth and restrain yourself from snapping in their face (while, watching Ron engage in "The Exchanges" is an option he uses that I usually don't have). And he does an admirable job of the restraint, with the only exceptions being when Ron isn't around and he is under high stress and tells her (paraphrased because the books aren't here with me) to "shut up" and "when are you going to give up on this spew stuff", but this isn't a good situation for a romantic relationship if that is how he reacts to her personality. And he will snap even if he tries to prevent it and when he does, it won't carry with it the 'aw, yeah, you're a know-it all, but you're kind of cute' quality I see in the exchanges. So in short, yes I can see how you can say Hermione *doesn't* like the exchanges, but if she *doesn't* like the exchanges when certain in the knowledge Ron likes her, she certainly will not be able to deal with Harry when they do fight and finding happiness will be rather hard for her. I can see how you can construct an anti-R/Hr statement based on 'TE', but I don't think there is much of a door open for H/Hr afterwards either. Now, this isn't to say I don't like abrasive personalities. I am a Snape fan, I love watching abrasive personalities interact with others (espacially when they deserve it), but I know when they interact with me frequently it's like sandpaper against the frontal lobe. I can't blame her for it, I certainly find it entertaining to read, and I can see how I can sometimes get in how she usually is. It hust makes me like her more if I know she can take a tease. bluemeanies From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 23:12:47 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 15:12:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Electricity In-Reply-To: <000b01c2c4a5$1e1f2240$5f4d6551@f3b7j4> Message-ID: <20030125231247.47289.qmail@web40501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50624 --- manawydan wrote: > > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 02:47:18 -0000 > > From: "Debbie " > > >Subject: Re: Muggle Questions Was: McGonagall the > snoop > > > >Now an ignorant question...Hermione mentions that > magic and > >electricity don't work together. I'm assuming she > means just at > >Hogwarts, right? Otherwise, wouldn't muggles find > it weird that some > >neighbors only use candles? > I definitely think that this refers solely to Hogwarts. I think it's one of the special things like not being able to apparate, some interesting detail we would find in Hogwarts: A History (which is probably also the reason only Hermione knows of this out of Harry, Ron and herself). It probably has something to do with protection from the Muggles and keeping them from finding out about Hogwarts. I mean, I'm pretty sure that some Wizards use electronics, just not at Hogwarts. Ah, I got it, the Weasley's tent at the Quidditch World Cup had lights and running water. And I believe there is mention of the Weasley's having a toaster one of the times Harry is visiting. ~Kathryn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From editor at texas.net Sat Jan 25 23:20:15 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:20:15 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Missing scenes References: Message-ID: <003401c2c4c8$523fa040$8c04a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 50625 Marina said: >This got me thinking about a number of > other "missing scenes" in the books that I would've loved to see. I > don't mean things that might theoretically have happened, but things > that canon definitely tells us have happpened, but we never see them > or even get a second-hand account of them. So, anyone else have their own list? My personal favorite: Dumbledore telling Snape that Sirius had not Confunded Harry, Ron, and Hermione and was in fact innocent. ~Amanda From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 25 23:41:00 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 23:41:00 -0000 Subject: Muggle Questions Electricity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50626 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Debbie " wrote: > Now an ignorant question...Hermione mentions that magic and > electricity don't work together. I'm assuming she means just at > Hogwarts, right? Otherwise, wouldn't muggles find it weird that > some neighbors only use candles? > > -Debbie Well, Arthur Weasley doesn't even know how to *pronounce* electricity (he says eckeltricity in GoF Ch.1); so a full time wizard obviously doesn't use the stuff at all. I doubt that wizards use only candles. Hogwarts uses large flaming torches in its halls. Plus wands get used in place of torches (flashlights) with the Lumos spell; the QWC stadium in GoF has magic lighting. For the suburban wizard surrounded by muggles, paraffin lamps (kerosene) would work quite nicely with magic. They can be as bright as electric lights, so the neighbours would be unlikely to notice unless they went into the house. I suspect magic and electricity don't work together because magic, like electricity, works at the sub atomic level. Spells probably interfere with the continuous flow of electrons that electrical/electronic devices depend on. How do half and half households get on? Probably by compromise. The wizard/witch tries to remember not to use any spells when the telly's on; and the muggle remembers to have candles/paraffin lamps available in each room for those 'excuse me, I just have to talk to someone via the fireplace' moments. There's probably quite a bit of 'Darling, I'm going to be on the Internet for an hour' or 'Darling, I just have to make this complex potion, there's nothing good on the tv tonight, is there?'. Alternatively, half and half households may be notorious for their large gardens, with their large garden shed, which is where the wizarding half can use magic away from all that eleckeltricity... Pip!Squeak [ currently trying to complete the UK Inland Revenue's new 'simplified' Self Assessment Income Tax form (which contains such gems as ' If you ticked 'Yes' in Question 17 on page 7 then go to page 17 to work out the figure for box W76...)] From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jan 25 23:59:04 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 23:59:04 -0000 Subject: Hermione is a sarcastic person Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50627 Penny asked: >>Who is she sarcastic with *besides* Ron? I really don't think she is a sarcastic person. I think Ron is, and I think he likely gets a charge out of it.<< I admit, the first two books seem to bear this out. There isn't much evidence of Hermione's sarcastic nature at first. She doesn't show amusement at Ron's sarcasm in PS/SS and I couldn't find any instances in of her being sarcastic herself. In CoS, she gets sarcastic for the first time, with Malfoy: "At least no one on the Gryffindor team had to *buy* their way in," Hermione said sharply. "*They* got in on pure talent." That's sarcasm, though you have to remember that Malfoy *is* a talented flyer to grasp the irony. In Book Three, however, things change. Up until then, it's always been Ron who does the teasing, and sometimes makes fun of Hermione for being overserious. But in chapter 6, we have this exchange. ======= Ron spooned stew onto his plate and picked up his fork but didn't start. "Harry," he said, in a low, serious voice, "you *haven't* seen a great black dog anywhere, have you?" "Yeah, I have," said Harry. "I saw one the night I lift the Dursleys'" Ron let his fork fall with a clatter. "Probably a stray," said Hermione calmly. Ron looked at Hermione as if she'd gone mad. "Hermione, if Harry's seen a Grim, that's--that's bad," he said. "My--my Uncle Bilius saw one and--and he died twenty-four hours later!" "Coincidence," said Hermione airily, pouring herself some pumpkin juice. "You don't know what you're talking about!" said Ron, starting to get angry. "Grims scare the living daylights out of most wizards!" "There you are, then," said Hermione in a superior tone. "They see the Grim and die of fright. The Grim's not an omen, it's the cause of death! And Harry's still with us because he's not stupid enough to see one and think, right, well, I'd better kick the bucket then!" ====== Sarcasm is such unexpected behavior from Hermione that Ron is speechless, but Hermione goes on... ===== "I think Divination seems very woolly," she said, searching for her page. "A lot of guesswork, if you ask me." "There was nothing woolly about the Grim in that cup!" said Ron hotly. "You didn't seem quite so confident when you were telling Harry it was a sheep," said Hermione coolly. [There are several levels of wordplay here. The contrasting adverbs,"hotly" and "coolly" are a narrative wink, and Hermione, if she didn't deliberately set Ron up for the sheep remark, certainly takes instant advantage of it. They're doing well--but of course Ron blows it.] "Professor Trelawney said you didn't have the right aura! You just don't like being bad at something for a change!" He had touched a nerve. ======== Hermione and Ron are starting to tease one another, and like any new game, it's going to take a while to iron out the rules so that no one gets hurt. But Hermione has served notice that she's not content to be Ron's straight man any more. Two can play. Now, is there anything in the text to tell us why, after two volumes of reticence, Hermione suddenly shows her teasing side? Yes, there is. It's on the previous page, where Professor McGonagall, one of the people Hermione admires most, first reveals a gift for sarcasm herself. ========= "You look in excellent health to me, Potter, so you will excuse me if I don't let you off homework today. I assure you that if you die, you need not hand it in." Hermione laughed. ========= That's the first time we ever see Hermione laugh at a sarcastic remark. Up to then, I have the feeling she wasn't sure it was allowed. She's been holding back, IMO. But one page later, she's teasing Ron. You can't tell me we're supposed to think she never wanted to do it before. But Hermione really turns loose in Trelawney's class, ch. 15. === Hermione snorted. "Well, honestly...'the fates have informed her'...who sets the exam? She does! What an amazing prediction!" she said, not bothering to keep her voice low. Harry and Ron choked back laughs. ==== So, yes, I think Hermione is a sarcastic person and does enjoy using it for teasing, though she's well aware of its potential to wound. It's something she can't do with Harry very well. It's too easy to hurt him. Even Hagrid doesn't tease him very much. Pippin From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 26 00:05:40 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 00:05:40 -0000 Subject: Electricity In-Reply-To: <20030125231247.47289.qmail@web40501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50628 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kathryn Wolber wrote: > > > >Debbie: > > > Hermione mentions that > > >magic and electricity don't work together. I'm assuming she > > >means just at Hogwarts, right? Kathryn: > I definitely think that this refers solely to > Hogwarts. > I mean, I'm pretty > sure that some Wizards use electronics, just not at > Hogwarts. Ah, I got it, the Weasley's tent at the > Quidditch World Cup had lights and running water. Pip!Squeak: 'Fraid not. Harry, Hermione and Ron have to go get the water from a tap in Ch. 7 GoF. That's when they meet little Kevin expanding his Slug and Archie with his 'healthy breeze round my privates'. Other wizarding families are using the tap, too. There's a queue. The tent is lit, but we never find out how. Likewise, I can't find a mention of how the Weasley's light their house, though Mr Weasley conjures up candles to light the gardens in GoF ch.5. Kathryn: > And I believe there is mention of the Weasley's having a > toaster one of the times Harry is visiting. Again, no. There is mention of the Weasley's eating marmalade, which usually comes complete with toast in the UK, but I can find no mention of a toaster. Shocking as it may be to our younger members, you don't need electric toasters to make toast. I have myself used the old fashioned method of spearing the bread on a toasting fork and then toasting it in front of the kitchen [coal] fire. Mrs Weasley probably points her wand at the bread and it magically levitates and toasts *itself* in front of the fire [grin]. But the principle is the same. Pip!Squeak From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Jan 26 00:59:30 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 00:59:30 -0000 Subject: Banter/FF: After the Ball was Re: Banter and other SHIP subjects In-Reply-To: <026101c2c3f6$eb8b20d0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50629 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Penny Linsenmayer wrote: >>>it comports with my notion that "bickering couples falling in love" is a very Hollywood thing. :--) > > It may well be that JKR intended it to be a "cute meet" and that she intends R/H and/or H/G and maybe she'll confirm that years from now. I just personally don't see it though. We're just down to arguing about authorial intent, which is pointless at this juncture. > > <<<>>>>>>>> > > She could be, if, like me, she's never *heard* of the term or the convention. IMO, it's very possible she didn't intend that effect at all. We'd have to suppose she's never read The Taming of the Shrew, either. Hollywood did not invent the romantic comedy. Elizabethan dramatists did, in 1590 or so. Penny: > Perhaps I haven't been clear enough. Or maybe we just disagree. :--) I'm not saying that JKR would marry them off at age 17/18 in the epilogue. She might well let them be early 20s or what have you. But, unless they only marry after they've dated some other people, the message would still be that a first-time romance between teens ("first love") can develop into a successful marriage. << Maybe I'm not understanding you. If you're saying that JKR needs to let her characters have enough dating experience to tell the differences between a crush, a shallow attraction, and the Real Thing, then I agree with you. That process is well underway. Harry has his crush on Cho and his shallow attraction to Parvati. Ron has a crush on Fleur and a shallow attraction to Padma. Hermione had a crush on Lockhart, and is now, it seems, in a shallow relationship with Krum, though it seems deep on his side. OTOH, If you're saying that it's necessary, for realism's sake, that all the characters experience a series of serious but unsatisfactory love affairs before they settle down to a successful marriage, well, I and my husband of twenty-seven years would probably disagree. :--) I said: > > <<< *Something* must have happened, because one minute Ron > and Hermione are standing ten feet apart and screaming, and > the next morning--well, I'll let Harry tell it: > > ==== > Ron and Hermione seemed to have reached an unspoken > agreement not to discuss their argument. They were being quite > friendly to each other, though oddly formal. > ===== > > Oh, that 'seemed' -- that covers a multitude of assumptions, > doesn't it. We'd know a lot more about the status of Ron and > Hermione's relationship if we knew what had *really* > happened. Did he apologize? Did she forgive? Did he? Did Ron, > in fact, do what Ebony accuses him of lacking the magnaminity > to do, and wish Hermione *bon chance* with Krum?>>>>>>>>> Penny: > Well, it's always struck me that they didn't say anything at all to each other actually. I've never considered that there was a conversation that morning, before Harry saw them. If there was, I wonder why they would be "oddly formal" with each other afterwards? Can you give me the potential scenario there? > > <<< swallow her pride for Harry's sake on Boxing Day? Putting that in > black and white, I can't believe it. In fact, I'll go further. If she > did that, Harry can have her. She's not good enough for my > Ron.>>>>>>>>> > > I'm totally not following you here, so I'm unable to say whether you've got the "H/H line" down or not. Did Hermione swallow her pride about what on Boxing Day? As I said, I suspect she and Ron didn't discuss their fight at all. :::: looks puzzled:::::: Well, I've put this in fic form--those of you who don't like fic should stop reading now. The R/H scenario, with the morning after conversation, comes first. The H/H scenario, without a conversation, follows. ======= Ron pulled his curtains aside. He got out of bed quietly, not wanting to wake Harry. Snores came softly from the other beds. He dressed quickly, pulling this year's sweater over his T shirt. Maroon again. Harry's lay on top of his trunk, still half unwrapped. The H was worked in red and gold. Ron sighed. People took more time over Harry. Well, they should, shouldn't they? Something about him brought out the best in people. He checked his reflection in the mirror. His face looked paler than usual in the morning light, making his freckles stand out more. He tried to straighten his hair. "You're a prize, you are," he remarked to his reflection. "Speak for yourself," the mirror retorted. "Shut up, you." Ron sighed. Mirror, mirror on the wall, who's the biggest prat of all. He'd been so hopeful, that time, seeing himself as Gryffindor captain with the Quidditch cup and the House Cup, even the Head Boy badge, not that he really wanted *that*. He'd never thought of being a Seeker at the World Cup, much less Tri-wizard champion. He made a face. Even his dreams were second rate. His eye fell on the statuette of Krum, preening itself on his bed table. It sparked as he snapped it in two. Ron hurled the pieces onto the floor, not minding where they went, and headed down the stair. The Gryffindor Common Room was much quieter than it had been lately. The loudest sound was the occasional yawn, broken by a crackle and sputter from the fireplace. The holly and ivy twined above the mantle were starting to look rather limp. Hermione was sitting in her usual chair, for once without a book. Crookshanks was in her lap, purring loudly. Her hair had gone back to normal, Ron saw. He stood in front of her and cleared his throat. Crookshanks opened his huge yellow eyes and stared. For a moment he thought Hermione wasn't going to look at him. Then she did. Ron opened his mouth, but couldn't manage to make anything come out of it. "Well?" she said. "Going to shout at me some more?" Ron took a deep breath. "Look, about last night. It was stupid. I don't know what got into me." "If you don't know," said Hermione, not looking at him, "I'm not going to tell you." "Right." The silence stretched awkwardly. Hermione looked past him, up the empty staircase on the boy's side. "Where's Harry?" Ron shrugged. "Dead to the world, I reckon." "It's just an expression!" he added quickly. "He's upstairs in our dormitory, sleeping. Look, we're at Hogwarts, nothing's going to--" "Someone put his name in that Goblet, Ron!" Hermione said shrilly. "Until we find out how that happened, he's in danger." She met his eyes determinedly, as if willing him to understand something she wasn't able to put into words. Ron nodded slowly. "Look--about Krum--" "I think it's best if we avoid that subject." There was ice in her tone. Ron was silent a moment. Then he said, "He'd better treat you right. He'd just better, that's all." "Don't grit your teeth, it's bad for them. You don't have to come all protective, Ron. I *am* a witch, you know." "'Course you are. Just try and remember it, next time some Slytherin bounces a hex off you." He held out his hand. It was, he noticed, much bigger than hers. "Pax?" "Pax." They shook on it, once, and let go quickly. Harry stumbled into the Common Room, looking very sleepy. He looked from one to the other. "Er, you two all right? "Dunno." Ron said. "Miss Granger, how are you this morning?" Hermione managed a small smile. "Quite well, I think. And you?" "Fine. I'm fine." Harry looked bewildered, then shrugged. "Ron, have you told Hermione about Hagrid? - Oh, wait till you hear this..." ======== H/H version Hermione stormed up the girls' staircase. She managed to hold back the tears till she'd reached her room. Tearing the curtains aside, she flung herself down on the bed and sobbed. "Hermione?" Parvati's voice was muffled. She heard the sound of the curtains being drawn aside and felt a hand on her back. "Go away!" she said, into her pillow. "What's going on?" That was Lavender. "Get Ginny," said Parvati. "And a glass of water, I think." Hermione pulled herself together. She sat up. Parvati was sitting on the edge of the bed, looking concerned. She had a right to be, Hermione thought, catching a glimpse of herself in the bedside mirror. Her cheeks were blotchy, the lovely periwinkle blue dress was crushed where she'd been lying on it, and her hair was not only coming down, it was reverting, strand by strand, to its original state. Even as she watched, there was a faint twanging, and several more locks pulled themselves out of the bun and corkscrewed into curliness. "What happened?" Parvati asked. "Did Krum--" "No!" said Hermione. "No, of course not. It's that prat, Ron Weasley. I hate him!" Then she put her hand over her mouth. Ginny Weasley was standing in the doorway. "He *is* like that, sometimes," Ginny said, coming forward. "You look terrible." "Don't make me feel worse!" Hermione told Ginny and Parvati everything that had happened. "Told you so," said Ginny. "He does like you." "Like me! He's got a funny way of showing it, trying to ruin my night!" "Well, he wasn't the only one!" said Parvati. "You had the luck, Parvati," Hermione said softly. "You were with Harry." Parvati laughed derisively. "Luckier if he hadn't spent the whole night with his eyeballs glued to Cho Chang. Or off walking with Ron Weasley in the rose bushes." Ginny's eyebrows collided with her hairline. "*What!?*" "Oh!" said Parvati, blushing furiously, "I didn't mean they were *walking* -- They were just...walking." "But, what am I going to do?" Hermione moaned. "Well, I'd tell Ron to take a flying leap into the lake, if I were you," said Ginny sagely. "I can't" said Hermione. "Why ever not?" asked Parvati. "If it's any consolation, I'm sure Padma feels the same way, right now." "Because," Hermione sniffed, "Harry needs me." "Well, really! What's that got to do with it?" Ginny looked indignant. "Besides, if you like Harry that way, what d'you want to bother with Viktor for?" "Because," said Parvati acidly, " Viktor is seventeen, and knows how to treat a witch." "You don't understand," Hermione wailed. "It's not like that at all. Harry needs me. He hasn't done anything about his Egg, and he won't unless I make him, and if I stop speaking to Ron, which I want to, believe me, then Harry won't speak to me either. And he needs me!" "But what about what you need?" Ginny asked. "It doesn't matter what I need," Hermione sniffed. The three other girls exchanged exasperated glances. "She's hopeless," Parvati whispered. Hermione didn't seem to hear. "Well, said Ginny thoughtfully, "I guess you could be with Harry and ignore the fact that ninety percent of the time he's with Ron." "Act like you don't care what Ron thinks," said Parvati. "Really don't care what Ron thinks," said Lavender. "Ignore him!" they all chorused, imitating Hermione. Hermione managed a small smile. She pulled out her handkerchief, wished fervently that wizards had taken to Kleenex, and blew her nose. "But suppose Ron says something else!" "Well, you can't stop Ron saying things, you know. At least, no one has yet. Mum's tried, believe me." "I could," said Hermione darkly. "One good curse..." "I know it's tempting," said Ginny, "but you really shouldn't curse my brother, you know." "Right. Well, Harry needs me, so I guess I'll just have to pretend I can tolerate his stupid prat of a friend, even if he is insulting me and every other woman on the planet. Now I'm going to bed!" "You are in bed," said Lavender. ========= Pippin who has discovered Eb's secret. Writing counter-ship is fun! From sevothtarte at gmx.net Sun Jan 26 01:00:15 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 02:00:15 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quidditch, Number of Games, & Who Attends In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50630 bboy_mn: >So, I wonder if they used a process of elimination. The two weakest >teams from the year before, play the two strongest teams. Winners of >those two games play each other for the final championship. This tournament style wouldn't match the discussions among the players in PoA by how many points they need to win a game to win the Cup. It's clearly league-style, where the number of goal- & Snitch-points decides who's in front if we victory-/defeat- points are equal for two or more teams, just like it is in most football (soccer) leagues. Torsten From sevothtarte at gmx.net Sun Jan 26 00:54:57 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 01:54:57 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] the difference between expelliarmus and accio spells In-Reply-To: <1cc.c9f927.2b640c58@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50631 >Lynda Sappington: >I'm still kind of new to all this, >so I could be mistaken, but that's what occurred to me when the same question >popped into my head while reading. Boy, I wish I could do "accio" spells >myself -- then I wouldn't be hunting for my cell phone and keys all the time! Question is, what limitations are there to the Accio spell? Obviously, "Accio Philosopher's Stone" doesn't work, unless you know where the Stone is and it can get to you - which leads to the assumption that Harry left his dormitory window open for the Firebolt to reach him. Still, knowledge and no hindrances can't be the only obstacles, since there would be a lot of robbery otherwise ... What I've been always wondering about is when Harry summons the Firebolt: "saw his Firebolt hurtling towards him around the edge of the woods" (GoF, The First Task). Why "around the edge of the woods"? Why doesn't it take the direct route to it's summoner (like all the other accio'd items do) and flies over the woods? Torsten From amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jan 25 23:08:14 2003 From: amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk (amy_marblefeet ) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 23:08:14 -0000 Subject: Fourth Man Avery & Fourth Man Nott In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50632 I know this post is a little late in coming but I would like to say I love this little rubber ducky of a theory you have here Ginger. Although I am extremely suggestible and the people on this list could probably convince me that my own mother was a Death Eater none the less your theory definitely holds water. I would like to add some things, myself, on the similarities between the characters of Neville and Nott. "What!" I hear you cry. "Similarities between a cannon based secondary character who is complex and has subplots entangled with the primary characters with a character who doesn't even have a gender let alone a name. Where are my yellow flags?" Wait, I cry, hold you fire and hear me out. While this may be cannon subversion in the extreme I have been reading too much about mirrors lately to pass up this chance to reflect and reverse Neville in Nott Jr and while I was reading your post the idea just jumped out of my head. To begin I would like to make unknown!Nott a girl in Ravenclaw purely to reflect her with Neville (and because I am an incurable romantic) and call her Alison purely for ease. The first thing that jumped out at me was the fact that Neville was raised by his grandmother after his parent's admission to St Mungos. Is it such a stretch of the imagination that, if your Third Nott Theory is correct, that Alison would have been raised by the Nott Sr, the one that turned up at the graveyard. I don't think I could give the Alison a loony Aunt but I would stretch to a toad in the pet department. Neville lost his parents minds to the Pensive four's torture. Perhaps Alison lost hers to the torture of Azkaban where the Longbottems put them. Picture the scene; Notts parents are captured first time around, just after the fall of Voldemort and tortured for information by that famous Auror Frank Longbottem. Sent to Azkaban the couple rotted and the mother of Alison died before the father was released, after they had both claimed Imperius. This gives husband Nott a reason to go after the Longbottems which is completely removed from trying to find Vapormort. That's why he stayed quiet at the hearing; the Lestranges did not have that excuse and so confessed, Barty Crouch Jr, well everyone thought he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. But Nott, he had lost his wife and had a toddler to bring up on his own, perhaps his father could get him off at a latter stage once Barty "fight fire with fire" Crouch Sr. had been succeeded. Sadly Nott Jr. dies in prison before his fathers flowery words can save him, leaving his daughter to be brought up by her grandfather. Ten years roll by and Nott and Neville are both sorted into Hogwarts. Neville is placed in Gryfindor even though he doesn't think he should be there and feels he is under constant pressure to uphold the family name. Nott is sorted into Ravenclaw (can I ask at this point: is this cannon fact or have we just deduced that Nott is in Ravenclaw?) I wondered if Nott feels she should have been put in Slytherin like her family to uphold their honour. Perhaps in the future if this rubber duckie becomes cannon supported in book five we will see Longbottem and Nott meet, two households, both alike in dignity. In fair Hogwarts, where we lay our scene, From ancient grudge break to new mutiny, Where civil blood makes civil hands unclean. From forth the fatal loins of these two foes...well you get my point. I tried to come up with a scenario where Alison Nott's parents had had their souls sucked out by dementors and were now in the creepy east wing of St Mungos where all the other soulless bodies are dumped. But I just couldn't get it to work. Amy (who just realises that the above makes not allot of sense and should probably just get back to her Algebra where, like Snape, she is putting 2 and 2 together but constantly geting 4.0001) From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 25 23:11:24 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 15:11:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Elections in the Wizarding World (or lack thereof) In-Reply-To: <006801c2c4c4$0fefc0c0$19362850@ukf974444> Message-ID: <20030125231124.71642.qmail@web21004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50633 Becky said : What you said about selecting officials is probably true a lot of the time, but not, I think entirely. Look at the group who governs Hogswarts. They were able to expel Mr. Malfroy which is an inherently political task. They also suspended Dumbledore for a day or two and I'm sure could have selected a successor although that process is not actually spelled out in the book. Michelle: Ok, this is where you need to define politics. I see those decisions as easy. They're about right or wrong. In fact, boards of governors of private schools in the UK ( I'm a Brit ) are quite autonomous. Again, Becky : Also in the first book, Hagrid told Harry concerning the Ministry of Magic that "they wanted Dumbledore fer Minister o' course, but he'd never leave Hogwarts, so old Cornelius Fudge got the job." Well, first "they wanted" sounds like a "political" and not a magical appointment. Also, no magical selection process would have stuck the ministry with an idiot like Fudge! Michelle: Hmm.....now we're really talking semantics. I think you mean that his appointment was not done by democracy - as in a vote of some sort ? I don't think that the WW is so very primitive that they would trust their leadership to pure magic, because they are not ( in some respects ) so very far removed from UK society. By this I mean that they judge by personality, not wizarding ability. Me (Becky) Actually I agree with you Michelle. I was referring to "political" appointments in the context of political verses magical. Any appointment by any assembly can be construed as political (depending on one's semantics) but that is contrary to the previously stated (not by you) idea that selections are done by Magical means. So it only referred to political verses magical means of selecting people. And of course in these august bodies a WHOLE LOT of politicing goes on and there's nothing to indicate that the magical community would be any different. I've seen no sign though of a democratic tradition here. One point I do disagree with you though Michelle. If these decisions were easy, what is a nincompoop like Cornelius Fudge doing as Minister of Magic? Sounds like their decision wasn't all THAT easy to make! Of course I remember Hermannie's comment in the first book (she read it I'm sure) about why Snap's trap was so clever. Because it's pure logic and most wizzards have very little common sense! Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From starropal at hotmail.com Sat Jan 25 23:19:37 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:19:37 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Muggle questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50634 >Debbie asks: > > > Now an ignorant question...Hermione mentions that magic and electricity > > don't work together. I'm assuming she means just at Hogwarts, right? > > Otherwise, wouldn't muggles find it weird that some neighbors only use > > candles? I'm surprised that no one's already said this (at least not that I saw - soooo many messages) but if that was true to everywhere than a lot of things would be different at the Dursley house wouldn't it? When Dobby, Harry, or the Weasleys use magic there is no note made about how suddenly the house is plunged into darkness or how all the appliances burn out. In P/SS: When Dumbledore apparates on Privet Drive (I'm assuming since he appears "so suddenly and silently you'd of thought he just popped out of the ground") He still needs to turn of the street lights - one by one in fact. Also with all these shooting stars, Vernon is still able to work like normal. No phone problems, no electricity problems. Its not on the news about wide spread outages, ect. Star Opal soooo many messages @_@ _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Sun Jan 26 00:01:38 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 00:01:38 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Banter and other SHIP subjects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50635 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "derannimer " wrote: > Angua wrote: > >You are 100% right about one thing. Ron and Hermione's humorous > >exchanges have an *edge* to them. There are hurt feelings and danger > >there. > > Now I *know* why I believe that Hermione doesn't enjoy them: it's the > reason that Penny put forward a few posts back. > > >If [JKR] continues to stress words > >like "savagely," "impatiently," "sputtered > >indignantly," "acidly," "coldly," "angrily," etc., she might give > >us the impression that Ron and Hermione really don't interact very > >positively during their "bantering." > > This is true, Angua. JKR *does* tend to use extremely negative words > to describe the way that Hermione reacts to Ron's teasing. (Although > I think that that "savagely" actually belonged to Ron; you can > scratch that one if you like to.) But my point is that H/Hers have a > pretty objective reason for thinking that Hermione doesn't enjoy TE. > There are clues in JKR's diction and description to suggest that she > doesn't. JKR uses very negative words here. > > Derannimer (who means it. *Honestly,* can't we agree on *anything* > here?) I think you are both missing a crucial factor here. Ron, Hermione and Harry are in the prepubertal "latent" phase of development here, which is characterized by boys associating mainly with themselves, and ignoring or showing antipathy to girls. It is the time in which (figuratively) boys will pull on girls' pigtails. The boys are unable to express any nice or sincere feelings yet (I am not speaking of anything romantic-- just being nice is a problem); they have not reached that phase of their development. Instead, it is common for boys in this phase to use strong language to mask-- even to themselves-- the strong feelings that they are beginning to have and will shortly burst forth in their lives. I thought that JKR had captured this latent phase behavior beautifully. She was starting to depict the changes that occur with puberty in GoF. I think you have to interpret the R?H exchanges in the earlier books in this light. Haggridd From snorth at ucla.edu Sun Jan 26 01:12:52 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (xyrael_ucla ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 01:12:52 -0000 Subject: Quidditch, Number of Games, & Who Attends In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50636 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve " wrote: > I realize that there is only just so much story time that JKR can > squeeze between the covers of a book. A recent post made me start > thinking about how many points Quidditch adds to the house total. That > in turn started me thinking about how many games would be played in a > season. > > So how many games are played in a season? I should know the > mathimatical formula for this, but I don't, so I sketched it out with > a pen and paper. If all teams play an equal number of games, then > there would be a total of 6 games which would allow every house to > play every other house once. I always thought that this was the case; each team plays 3 matches, for a total of 3! (3 factorial = 3*2*1) = 6. Like someone already mentioned, if all six matches were given time in the pages, it would add unnecessarily to the length of the books. (admittedly, *I* wouldn't mind reading about them.) Someone really needs to invent small personal transportation devices modeled like brooms, and balls that fly of their own will, so I can start playing quidditch. -Scott (who just couldn't resist pointing out the math, sorry ;) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Jan 26 01:14:02 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 01:14:02 -0000 Subject: Quidditch, Number of Games, & Who Attends In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50637 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "christi0469 " wrote: > bboy wrote, > > (material snipped) > > > So, I wonder if they used a process of elimination. The two > > weakest teams from the year before, play the two strongest > > teams. Winners of those two games play each other for the final > > championship. Total= 3 games. ..edited.. > > (more snipped material) > > my reply- (christi) > > I think the events of PoA make this scenario impossible. Gryffindor > plays Hufflepuff, then Ravenclaw, then Slytherin. In a three game > season Gryffindor would be excluded from at least one of the games. > > ...edited... > > If the Cup is awarded on the basis of points, then all teams should > be allowed to play all three other houses. > > ..edited... > > Christi bboy_mn: I don't claim to have a good memory, in fact, it is notoriously bad. But after I posted my original question, I seemed to remember Gryffindor playing Slytherin twice is one season, but I'm not sure what book that would be in (maybe PoA; that seems to be a very Quidditch book). Is this just a dream I had one night, or do other people remember this? If that were true, and we assume a standard play format where every team plays every team at least once (6 games total), then how did they play Slytherin twice. If I have to invent a solution it would be, 6 games for the season, then a play-off of the two top teams for the final championship. It makes sense, but that's not the impression I got from reading the book. In the end the answer is always going to be 'it's fiction', but it is intriguing. Just some thoughts. bboy_mn From skelkins at attbi.com Sun Jan 26 01:19:48 2003 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 01:19:48 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Reading With Hindsight ,D/H; Hermione's role in Draco's future development In-Reply-To: <036a01c2c300$c25a0150$0301a8c0@Frodo> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50638 Heidi wrote: > This, of course, leads me to the "meta" question I always > have about SHIPping. I read the books individually - in > other words, I read PS, and had to wait for the release of > CoS, then the release of PoA, then GoF and am, of course, > still waiting for OoTP. And it took involvement in the fandom > for me to see that Ron had a crush on Hermione in GoF - and I > still can't see it anywhere before that. Huh. It's an interesting meta-question, to be sure. I first read the books right after the release of CoS. I thought it clear that Ron had a crush on Hermione in GoF, but it had not occurred to me before then. Looking back on it now, I do see signs of that interest beginning in CoS, but it's "reading through hindsight," as it were. It did not occur to me at the time, and it is only in retrospect that I interpret certain events in CoS and PoA as indicative of romantic foreshadowing for Ron and Hermione. As for Draco, I do think that he has a crush on Hermione, but this reading was only suggested to me post-GoF, by the conversations of adolescent boys on whom I was eavesdropping at my workplace. (Is that as pathetic as it gets, or what?) As with Ron and Hermione, I *now* see signs of it beginning in CoS. But again, this is reading through hindsight. I didn't notice any such indications before GoF. I do find Draco's behavior towards Hermione suggestive of a certain immature and ambivalent crush-y fascination. I find it interesting that in all those scenes when he's pestering and harassing and baiting Ron and Harry, he so very rarely addresses Hermione. He very rarely speaks to her at *all,* in fact, and when he does, I think that he does come across like a rather disturbed and nasty little boy who has a bit of a crush on a person he knows he's supposed to want dead. ---------- "Oh very funny," Hermione said sarcastically to Pansy Parkinson and her gang of Slytherin girls, who were laughing harder than anyone, "really witty." Ron was standing against the wall with Dean and Seamus. He wasn't laughing, but he wasn't sticking up for Harry either. "Want one, Granger?" said Malfoy, holding out a badge to Hermione. "I've got loads. But don't touch my hand, now. I've just washed it, you see; don't want a Mudblood sliming it up." ----------- Nasty, yes. Very nasty. But surely a proper little pure-blood shouldn't have initiated a conversation with her at all? Far less gone to all the trouble to cross those carefully established gender lines along which the Slyth/Gryff conflict had been being conducted right up to that point? I read a twisted little crush there, myself. I don't think that we're ever going to see D/H in canon. I do find myself suspecting, though, that if JKR does have a Redeemed!Draco scenario in mind, then Hermione very likely will have an important role to play in that plot development. In fact, even if we *don't* see a Redeemed!Draco scenario, I still think that Hermione is going to have a part to play in Draco's role in future canon, as I do think it likely that JKR plans to give him some further development in the upcoming volumes. For one thing, if the author were ever to grant Draco any degree of self-reflection (which she really is going to have to do, one way or another, I think, because whatever narrative utility Draco in his current state ever had as a peer rival for Harry has pretty much been exhausted at this point in the series), then Hermione would be the obvious hook to hang that on, not least of which because of our main characters, she is the one who is Muggle-born. In many ways, the DEs as a group are far more firmly established as *her* antagonists than they are as Harry's. Harry's enemy is Voldemort himself, and it is with Voldemort himself that he is both most strongly textually linked and ultimately concerned. Voldemort's mionions serve only to deliver Harry to his final showdowns with Voldemort in these books. when the novel ends with a Voldemort confrontation (as it does in all of them so far save PoA), then Harry winds up facing Voldemort himself and Voldemort alone. Even at the end of PS/SS, Quirrell is shoved out of the way in the final conflict, allowing Voldemort and Harry to face each other unimpeded. Ron and Hermione, on the other hand, strike me as more strongly pitted against the DEs -- and particularly against the Malfoy family. Draco is in many ways established more as Ron's enemy than as Harry's. Both Malfoy vs. Weasley and Draco vs. Hermione take center stage in CoS. In GoF, it is Hermione who receives Draco's ambiguously stated gloat at the QWC, and it is Hermione who is pitted against Rita Skeeter (who is textually linked to the Malfoys by virtue of receiving her information from Draco). At the beginning of GoF, JKR goes out of her way to establish Lucius Malfoy's revulsion towards Hermione at the QWC, just as she went out of her way to show him responding to the Grangers as well as the Weasleys at the beginning of CoS. I find all of this very suggestive, particularly in light of what seems to be a developing R/H ship in GoF. What it suggests to my mind is that in some way, the Malfoy family is being textually established as the designated enemy for both Ron *and* Hermione. But surely that would be redundant, wouldn't it? What would be the point of aligning Malfoy vs. Ron *and* Malfoy vs. Hermione? Well, the obvious answer, to my mind, is that Ron and Hermione are *not* in fact going to wind up in precisely the same relationship to the Malfoy family. There will be some subtle difference in how the drama of those interactions will play out. A Redeemed!Draco or BlowsHisChanceForRedemption!Draco or even a BetraysOurHeroes!Draco scenario in which Hermione plays the supportive/sympathetic/sucker role, while Ron plays the antagonistic function, does seem a likely possibility to me. Especially since, as Heidi wrote on a different thread: > 1. Hermione has occasionally been more concerned with What > Is Right than How Her Friends Feel (the firebolt, for > example) - thus, if someone on the Bad Side like Draco put > up a pretense of Moving Towards Good she would likely be the > first of the three to be willing to give him a chance, which > could lead her into a trap if Draco turned out to be Not So > good After All. Yup. She keeps Lupin's secret for him. She founds SPEW. She holds no truck with the wizarding world's prejudices. She flouts the Common Wisdom. She's a sucker for lost causes. As, you know, am I. Elkins From dicentra at xmission.com Sun Jan 26 01:27:07 2003 From: dicentra at xmission.com (dicentra63 ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 01:27:07 -0000 Subject: Missing scenes In-Reply-To: <003401c2c4c8$523fa040$8c04a6d8@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50639 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: > Marina said: > > >This got me thinking about a number of > > other "missing scenes" in the books that I would've loved to see. I > > don't mean things that might theoretically have happened, but things > > that canon definitely tells us have happpened, but we never see them > > or even get a second-hand account of them. So, anyone > else have their own list? > Amanda: > My personal favorite: > Dumbledore telling Snape that Sirius had not Confunded Harry, Ron, and > Hermione and was in fact innocent. > Dumbledore's "little talk" with Nicholas Flamel about destroying the Stone. Dumbledore interviewing Sirius and finding out about The Switch and the illegal animagi. Sirius and Hagrid arguing about who's going to take care of little Harry. Dumbledore's interview with Lupin after he turns back into a man, and Lupin has to admit he knew Sirius was an animagus. Percy finds out the truth about Bartemius Crouch Sr. The twins let Percy know that *they* know about Penelope Clearwater. --Dicey, who knows there are more From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Jan 26 02:18:21 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 02:18:21 -0000 Subject: Electricity and Wizard's Kitchens. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50640 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kathryn Wolber > wrote: > > > > > > >Debbie: > > > > Hermione mentions that magic and electricity don't > > > >work together. I'm assuming she means just at Hogwarts, > > > >right? > > > > - - - - - - > > Kathryn: > > I definitely think that this refers solely to Hogwarts. > > I mean, I'm pretty sure that some Wizards use electronics, just > > not at Hogwarts. > > - - - - - - - - - - - - > > Kathryn: > > And I believe there is mention of the Weasley's having a > > toaster one of the times Harry is visiting. > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Pip: > Again, no. There is mention of the Weasley's eating marmalade, which > usually comes complete with toast in the UK, but I can find no > mention of a toaster. > > > Pip!Squeak bboy_mn: It must be really noisy around you house with a name like 'Pip /BANG/ Squeak'. Sorry... just couldn't resist. As long as we are in the Weasley's kitchen, let's have a look around. Refigerator? So do they have a real refirgerator, or do that have a pre-enchanted refrigerator like box? By 'pre-enchanted' I mean, they bought it at the wizard's appliance store, and it came with a cooling enchantment already working. Or, perhaps, you bring it home, take it out of the box, preform an enchantment found in the instruction booklet, (which has no doubt been translated from Japanese into something resembling English) and that starts it cooling. The other option is that the Weasley refrigerator is just a pantry cupboard built in with all the other kitchen cupboards, that the Weasley's have performed an Cooling Charm on. In one of the regular cupboard, they have performed a freesing charm. The next alternative, is that they just enchant specific objects on a as needed basis. Mrs. Weasley makes some homemake ice cream (which she actually did do in the book), dumps it all into a big bowl, puts a freezing charm on it and sets it on the cupboard where it stays froen indefinitely. So what's your guess? All of the above...? None of the above...? Cook Stove? Then we come to the cook stove, and go through the same sequence of possbilities. Does Molly have a stove like object that is all appearance and no function. It has a big cavity under it the resembles an oven, but it's just a hollow non-functioning chamber. Molly puts the meat loaf in and preforms a baking charm and it start to cook. But exactly what does it look like? Is it a wizard's appliance that takes on the appearance of a somewhat modern stove but in reality is just a shell? The stove top burners are shaped like gas burners, but are nothing but shape. Molly puts the sauce pan on and performs a flame charm that dances around on the top of the fake burner. Or, it could be an old fashioned cast iron cook stove. Some of these were very attractive pieces of hardware. Again, it's all illustion, a big empty box that she casts heat and flame charms on. Or, is she cooking on the counter top of her cupboards? Furnace/Central Heating? What about heating their house? That old shack by muggle standards would be freezing cold in the winter. I lived in a farm house (hippy party farm) that had a large Kerosene stove in the living room to heat the house, and a wood stove in the kitchen. It got bitter cold upstair in the winter. So is there a heat charm for the whole house? Do people put slightly different charms on each room? Does the house have some kind of magic barrier around it to keep the wind from blowing through. And while we are on the subject of wind blowing through, why doesn't Howarts put some kind of barrier charms on it's drafy old windows? And finally, aren't you glad, are magic and electricity, or more accurately, electronics completely incompatable, or could Hermione give me a charm that would let me point the tip of my wand at the computer screen and magically the letters and words for the web address that I wanted would appear, or could I write a letter in a word processor just by dragging the tip of my wand across the page, and the words and sentences I wanted would appear. Sort of a Quick Quotes Word Processor Charm? It was just a thought. bboy_mn From meboriqua at aol.com Sun Jan 26 02:20:02 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 02:20:02 -0000 Subject: Missing scenes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50641 > Marina said: This got me thinking about a number of other "missing scenes" in the books that I would've loved to see. I don't mean things that might theoretically have happened, but things that canon definitely tells us have happpened, but we never see them or even get a second-hand account of them. So, anyone else have their own list?> So sorry if these have been mentioned already, but I'd have to go with: *Krum approaching Hermione in the library *the MoM sending their people to take care of Ballooned!Aunt Marge *Hagrid and Madame Maxime talking over a "cuppa" about their upcoming mission *any discussion between Snape and Dumbledore --jenny from ravenclaw, who really likes to just imagine herself in any scene in the Potterverse ******************************** From fausts at attglobal.net Sun Jan 26 03:01:33 2003 From: fausts at attglobal.net (anguaorc ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 03:01:33 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Banter and other SHIP subjects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50643 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "derannimer " wrote: > Here's my problem with that "edge" explanation. If you're trying to > hurt the other person's feelings, then I don't see how it's > a "humorous exchange." I'm sorry, but I honestly don't. And if you're > *not* trying to hurt the other person's feelings, but you keep doing > it anyway, then you probably don't understand the other person very > well. I don't necessarily think they're *trying* to hurt each others' feelings, but the risk of hurt feelings is ever-present. Let me try to explain this clearly. I believe that Ron and Hermione have a friendship, which they both enjoy and value, and which has a competitive bantering-or-bickering element to it. Ron HAS AN ADVANTAGE in that he is naturally funnier than Hermione and quite quick-witted, but Hermione HAS AN ADVANTAGE in that she is smart and logical, and doesn't say stupid things as much as Ron does. I believe that each of them is particularly vulnerable to being hurt by the other one. Ron is vulnerable to being hurt by Hermione because he is insecure about his accomplishments and abilities (in comparison to his siblings) and she is a ferociously accomplished person who is quick to notice and criticize errors (e.g. doing Wingardium Leviosa wrong). Hermione is vulnerable to being hurt by Ron because she is insecure about her place in the wizarding world, her ability to make friends, her "coolness," appearance, etc. and Ron is securely within the mainstream of wizarding society and has a quick, witty (and sadly blunt) tongue (e.g. "she's a nightmare, honestly"). To put it more simply, Ron wants to be ADMIRED by Hermione and Hermione wants to be LIKED by Ron. You can see these two themes stated from their very first meetings ("it's not very good, is it?", "can we help you with something?"), and continuing strongly on through to GoF. I see a lot of their bickering/bantering as an exploration and working through of these issues. There is tension there, but there is pleasure as well. Ron *challenges* Hermione to keep up with him in verbal wit, and mostly she DOES. Hermione *challenges* Ron to be competent, smart, and effective, and mostly he IS. For each of them, being accepted by the other is very valuable, because the other one has the qualities they wish they had. But, likewise, being rejected by the other is especially hurtful -- and it *has* occurred, on both sides. I see that they hurt each other, but they keep coming back for more. They're getting something out of it, and they seem to want *more* out of it -- more acceptance, more affirmation. As to whether Hermione, in particular, enjoys the verbal sparring -- I can't help thinking that if she didn't, she'd STOP. Why spend literally pages and pages of book-time on something she doesn't enjoy doing? The fact that their exchanges are often humorous is, I think, more important TO THE READER than it is to Ron and Hermione. We readers (are supposed to) like seeing Ron and Hermione interact, because it creates humor, which most readers like. But they don't just create humor by zinging each other, though that is part of it. They also create humor by a kind of quick-fire back-and-forth talking, as in the "really break your leg" example and the "bless you" example. JKR is giving them comic timing, and it gives the reader the impression that Ron and Hermione are a good couple, because we enjoy reading that kind of stuff. In other words, I consider the fact that their interchanges are humorous as evidence of author intention, rather than thinking that they'll fall in love because they make beautiful comedy together. But, on the other hand, we readers are not completely satisfied. Ron was really obnoxious to Hermione before the Yule Ball, and we wanted to see him suffer for it (which, thank goodness, we DID). Hermione is brutal to Ron sometimes when he says stupid things, and we'd like to see him excel and impress her. There is a continuing tension in their relationship, and we'd like to see it resolved by the end of the series, just as many of us would like to see a resolution of the tension between Fred/George and Percy, Severus and Sirius, Harry and Draco, Harry and Voldemort, Harry and the Dursleys, etc. Now, tension can be resolved in two ways -- by conciliation or by conflict and a clear winner. We expect the Harry/Voldemort tension to be resolved the second way. Some people may expect the Ron/Hermione to be resolved the second way (with Hermione the "winner" and Ron cast into the outer darkness). But I expect the Ron/Hermione tension to be resolved with conciliation, of which romantic intimacy is a common subtype. Now, it may seem that I'm just a crazed shipper here, overanalyzing what is meant to be an unimportant relationship between two minor characters. But that can't be, because JKR herself spends so incredibly much space on their interactions. She shows Ron and Hermione talking to each other ALL THE TIME. She has set them up with all sorts of conflicts -- cat/rat, house-elves, Harry-going-to- Hogsmeade, superstition/scepticism, rules/fun, etc. etc. etc. Now, some of this is a literary device, to externalize and personalize the inner conflicts in Harry's mind (angel-on-the-shoulder style). But it has also had the effect of greatly developing and elaborating the relationship between these two characters, and making it a relationship we care about. Derannimer: > FIRST of all, I think we can probably *all* agree that Ron does enjoy > (most of the time) his arguments with Hermione. > > Okay? > > SECOND, I *think* we can probably all agree on one fairly obvious > statement: either Hermione *does* enjoy her exchanges with Ron, or > she *doesn't.* > > Right? > > Duh. Angua: I'm not meaning to drive you crazy here, but it is perfectly possible (and I believe true) that *sometimes* Hermione enjoys them and *sometimes* she doesn't. No sane person could argue that Hermione enjoyed being yelled at by Ron about Crookshanks, for instance. But surely even you would agree that she enjoys giggling at him about his "scarlet woman" remark. I'm even mad enough to believe that some of them she can *enjoy* and *not enjoy* at the same time. For instance, the "snoring" comment in front of Padma. I believe that Hermione was honestly angry at Ron, and yet *also* enjoyed shutting him up with such a comprehensive snub. Derannimer: > THIRD. Now. If Hermione does enjoy the. . . well, you'd call > it "bantering," and I'd call it "bickering," so let's just call > it "The Exchanges." Okay? PLEASE don't think I'm saying that *all* their interchanges are "bantering"! Ron and Hermione bicker all the time (Harry even says so), either mildly, like with Norbert's hatching, or intensely, like with the house-elves. They also fight a time or two, and do a lot of teasing and a lot of normal talk, too. "Bantering" is just *one* of their many types of interaction. Derannimer: > As I was saying, I think we can probably all agree that if Hermione > *does* enjoy The Exchanges, then The Exchanges *are not* a problem. > (Though they are still evidently unpleasant for other people to > listen to, so Ron and Hermione might want to tone it down a bit.) Angua: Only *some* of them! Harry doesn't like to hear them sniping about Crookshanks, or wasting time squabbling about house-elves in front of Sirius, but it's my impression that he quite enjoys hearing Ron teasing Hermione about the Blast-Ended Screwts or Hermione teasing Ron about skiving off his Divination homework. Derannimer: > So on to FOURTH: I think we can probably all agree that if Hermione > *doesn't* enjoy TE, then TE *are* a problem. If Ron enjoys TE and > Hermione doesn't, then TE are a manifestation of some. . . > *disconnect,* some lack of understanding, in their relationship. Then > TE are a *negative* thing in their relationship. > > So that is the H/H position on TE. Angua: And what if Ron enjoys some of them and doesn't enjoy some of them, and Hermione enjoys some of them and doesn't enjoy some of them? Because that is what I believe to be the case. Derannimer: > Now I *know* why I believe that Hermione doesn't enjoy them: it's the > reason that Penny put forward a few posts back. > > >If [JKR] continues to stress words > >like "savagely," "impatiently," "sputtered > >indignantly," "acidly," "coldly," "angrily," etc., she might give > >us the impression that Ron and Hermione really don't interact very > >positively during their "bantering." > > This is true, Angua. JKR *does* tend to use extremely negative words > to describe the way that Hermione reacts to Ron's teasing. (Although > I think that that "savagely" actually belonged to Ron; you can > scratch that one if you like to.) But my point is that H/Hers have a > pretty objective reason for thinking that Hermione doesn't enjoy TE. > There are clues in JKR's diction and description to suggest that she > doesn't. JKR uses very negative words here. Angua: First, you are very right about 'savagely,' and -- moreover -- I can cite many, many other examples in their exchanges where the "negative" words are used to describe *Ron's* speech. And yet you are able to believe that, on the whole, Ron enjoys their exchanges. But you are not able to believe that, on the whole, Hermione enjoys their exchanges? Derannimer: > But I *don't* know why you think that Hermione *does* enjoy TE. So > please tell me: what *are* you picking up on, in the text--in word > choice, description, ect.--that makes you think Hermione enjoys TE? > Are there a lot of positive words that JKR also uses in TE > situations, that balance/outnumber the negative ones? Angua: Yes, and I will cite them. But I do want to emphasize that Hermione can enjoy the sparring, ON THE WHOLE, even though she doesn't enjoy it every single moment. For instance, just dumbly, she can enjoy it when she's winning, and not enjoy it when she's losing. But let me move on to my evidence: 1 - She starts it. The first "zinger" that is said by either Ron or Hermione after they become friends is said by Hermione ("very safe, as they're both dentists" PS/SS Ch.12). There is no characterization of Hermione's tone here, but, ummm, if not for enjoyment, why else would she do it? Ron hasn't insulted her or anything -- he just made a helpful suggestion. 2 - She doesn't get mad when Ron does it (PS/SS Ch. 16): "Why me?" "It's obvious," said Ron. "You can pretend to be waiting for Professor Flitwick, you know." He put on a high voice, "Oh Professor Flitwick, I'm so worried, I think I got question fourteen b wrong..." "Oh, shut up," said Hermione, but she agreed to go and watch out for Snape. Yes, I realize that "oh, shut up" could be considered negative, but to *me* it sounds good-humored. 3 - She keeps her cool when Ron does it (PoA. Ch. 4): "I've still got ten Galleons," she said, checking her purse. "It's my birthday in September, and Mum and Dad gave me some money to get myself an early birthday present." "How about a nice *book*?" said Ron innocently. "No, I don't think so," said Hermione composedly. "I really want an owl...." I would say 'composedly' is a positive-connotation word. 4 - Here is one that Hermione seems to enjoy very much, until it takes a turn in the end that she definitely *doesn't* like (PoA Ch. 6): "Harry," he said in a low, serious voice, "you haven't seen a great black dog anywhere, have you?" "Yeah, I have," said Harry. "I saw one the night I left the Dursleys." Ron let his fork fall with a clatter. "Probably a stray," said Hermione calmly. Ron looked at Hermione as though she'd gone mad. "Hermione, if Harry's seen a Grim, that's -- that's bad," he said. "My -- my Uncle Bilius saw one and -- and he died twenty-four hours later!" "Coincidence," said Hermione airily, pouring herself some pumpkin juice. "You don't know what you're talking about!" said Ron, starting to get angry. "Grims scare the living daylights out of most wizards!" "There you are, then," said Hermione in a superior tone. "They see the Grim and die of fright " Ron mouthed wordlessly at Hermione, who ... "I think Divination seems very woolly," she said, searching for her page. "A lot of guesswork, if you ask me." "There was nothing woolly about the Grim in that cup!" said Ron hotly. "You didn't seem quite so confident when you were telling Harry it was a sheep," said Hermione coolly. "Professor Trelawney said you didn't have the right aura! You just don't like being rubbish at something for a change!" He had touched a nerve. Hermione slammed her Arithmancy book down on the table so hard that bits of meat and carrot flew everywhere. Obviously, she didn't enjoy that last bit, when Ron turned the tables on her and got under her skin with a personal jibe. But I would claim the words 'calmly,' 'airily,' 'in a superior tone,' and 'coolly' as having definite positive connotations. Plus, you can't tell me she didn't enjoy making Ron "mouth wordlessly"! 5 - She likes that kind of humor when Ron does it to other people (PoA Ch. 15): Professor Trelawney rustled past. "Would anyone like me to help them interpret the shadowy portents within their Orb?" she murmured over the clinking of her bangles. "I don't need help," Ron whispered. "It's obvious what this means. There's going to be loads of fog tonight." Both Harry and Hermione burst out laughing. 6 - She likes to be proved right (PoA Ch.22): (from Sirius's letter) ...It was I who sent you the Firebolt -- "Ha!" said Hermione triumphantly. "See! I *told* you it was from him!" "Yes, but he hadn't jinxed it, had he?" said Ron. The fact that she enjoys being proved right this time makes me think she enjoys other times when she is able to show that Ron is wrong, even when the text doesn't say 'triumphantly,' even when she 'snaps.' 7 - She speaks 'briskly' and 'haughtily' (GoF Ch. 13): "Double Divination this afternoon," Harry groaned.... "You should have given it up like me, shouldn't you?" said Hermione briskly, buttering herself some toast. "Then you'd be doing something sensible like Arithmancy." "You're eating again, I notice," said Ron, watching Hermione adding liberal amounts of jam to her toast too. "I've decided there are better ways of making a stand about elf rights," said Hermione haughtily. "Yeah... and you were hungry," said Ron, grinning. That whole passage gives me a positive feeling, and I can't believe Hermione didn't enjoy it. It is the normal friendly banter (oops! I mean, ummm, Exchanges) between friends. She started it, too -- jumping on Harry's remark. And I see both "briskly" and "haughtily" as positive-connotation words in this context. 8 - She *admits* that she wanted to win an argument with Malfoy (GoF Ch. 13): "Well, at least the skrewts are small," said Ron as they made their way back up to the castle for lunch an hour later. "They are now," said Hermione in an exasperated voice, "but once Hagrid's found out what they eat, I expect they'll be six feet long." "Well, that won't matter if they turn out to cure seasickness or something, will it?" said Ron, grinning slyly at her. "You know perfectly well I only said that to shut Malfoy up," said Hermione. "As a matter of fact I think he's right. The best thing to do would be to stamp on the lot of them before they start attacking us all." I believe it is quite clear that Hermione did not mind Ron's teasing here, since she calmly admitted his point. They seem to both share the view that a little prevarication is perfectly okay, if it was useful in winning the argument with Malfoy. It's like they both tacitly agree that arguing is a game they both like to play. 9 - Here is one that she CLEARLY enjoys: "Miserable old bat," said Ron bitterly, as they joined the crowds descending the staircases back to the Great Hall and dinner. "That'll take all weekend, it will..." "Lots of homework?" said Hermione brightly, catching up with them. "Professor Vector didn't give *us* any at all!" "Well, bully for Professor Vector," said Ron moodily. I'm sure I don't need to point out that 'brightly' is a positive- connotation word. Notice that Hermione has *created* the Arithmancy vs. Divination subject as an opportunity to tease the boys (see previous quote). Just like Ron *chose* to tease Hermione for her not eating/eating/eating too fast. They BOTH enjoy having something to tease about. 10 - She certainly enjoys successfully zinging *Malfoy* (GoF Ch. 23): "You're joking, Weasley?" said Malfoy, behind them. "You're not telling me someone's asked *that* to the ball? Not the long-molared Mudblood?" Harry and Ron both whipped around, but Hermione said loudly, waving to somebody over Malfoy's shoulder, "Hello, Professor Moody!" Malfoy went pale and jumped backwards, looking wildly around for Moody, but he was still up at the staff table, finishing his stew. "Twitchy little ferret, aren't you, Malfoy?" said Hermione scathingly, and she, Harry and Ron went up the marble staircase laughing heartily. If she can enjoy that so much, it is hard for me to believe she didn't enjoy "What were you going to do, snore at them?" as well. 11 - I know I'm going on too long here, so here is just one last one (GoF Ch. 22): ...Snape, of course, would no sooner let them play games in class than adopt Harry. Staring nastily around at them all, he informed them that he would be testing them on poison antidotes during the last lesson of the term. "Evil, he is," Ron said bitterly that night in the Gryffindor common room. "Springing a test on us on the last day. Ruining the last bit of term with a whole load of revision." "Mmm... you're not exactly straining yourself, though, are you?" said Hermione, looking at him over the top of her Potions notes.... I can't point to any positive words there, but I note that she gives Ron a mild "zing" when he has only been talking about Snape, not her (so she is the one who "starts it"), and that to me, her tone sounds relaxed and pleasant, as if she is enjoying herself. So, that's my case that Hermione enjoys a good verbal sparring match as much as the next person. BTW, I promise not to imply again that you are a fan of Regis-and- Kathy-Lee style "bantering." But you know, the standard you defined in your first post was almost impossibly narrow: > Banter is conducted--and this is > highly important, to my mind--*deliberately, in play, and for the > amusement of the banterers.* > > Banter is rather like a highly-stylized 17th century dance. Or, at > its sharper extremes, like fencing. But it is always a form of > *play.* Offhand, the only couple I can think of outside of an Oscar Wilde play to reach those exalted heights is Nick and Nora Charles, and their dialogue was *very* artificial. It is not really a product of the courtship stage of a relationship, but is really only achievable when two people are already secure in each other's affections. Is this really something you expect Ron Weasley and Hermione Granger to already have mastered at the ages of eleven through fourteen? *I* think they've made an awfully good start on it, especially in GoF, but give them a little time! Even the dialogue in great movies such as "The Philadelphia Story" and "His Girl Friday" wouldn't meet your standards, because very often one of the participants is serious or angry or distracted, and - - especially -- because they're NOT doing if for amusement, but to work out serious problems in their relationships (such as the fact that one of the participants is on the verge of marrying someone else!). And yet, I had certainly always thought of those two movies as containing banter! And, you know, "Much Ado About Nothing" would be disqualified for the same reason -- Beatrice and Benedick *weren't* doing it for amusement. Angua From christi0469 at hotmail.com Sun Jan 26 03:20:23 2003 From: christi0469 at hotmail.com (christi0469 ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 03:20:23 -0000 Subject: missing scenes In-Reply-To: <20030125220952.28010.qmail@web40504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50644 > Marina wrote: > This got me thinking about a number of > > other "missing scenes" in the books that I would've > loved to see. I don't mean things that might > theoretically have happened, but things > > that canon definitely tells us have happpened, but > we never see them or even get a second-hand account of > them . My votes -the Riddle graveyard after Harry portkeyed out with Cedric's corpse -Snape after he left the infirmary at the end of GoF -Draco explaining his hodgepodge of hex marks to his father, especially as a "mudblood" and a few Weasleys bested him -the look on Petunia's face when Lily got her letter I also agree that I would dearly love to see the scene where Petunia opens her front door to find Harry, as well his toddlerhood. Were the Dursleys any nicer to him before he started showing signs of magic? Is any part of their poor treatment of Harry part of some misguided attempt to figuratively "beat" this abnormalcy out of him? What did Dumbledore threaten them with to prevent them from sending Harry to an orphanage? Christi From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jan 26 03:52:44 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 03:52:44 -0000 Subject: Notts/SackingDumbledore/#ofStudents/WizGovt/hippocampus/MagicCity/OwlOrder/.5 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50645 Ginger Snape wrote: << I realized that the Nott in the graveyard was described as 'stooped' and that this usually implied elderly, so would not likely have been a father. >> Elderly MEN can father children, especially with a new young wife (for example, and trying to leave out all forbidden Muggle politics, Strom Thurmond, the US Senator who just turned 100, has a son Strom Thurmond Jr born when Sr was in his 70s). Amy Marblefeet wrote: << To begin I would like to make unknown!Nott a girl in Ravenclaw purely to reflect her with Neville (and because I am an incurable romantic) and call her Alison purely for ease. >> If there is only one Nott at Hogwarts with Neville, hiser named starts with a T, because T. Nott is one of the names on check-out sheet for QTTA. If I gave the family tree of Notts in MY Potterverse, I would get a Howler for fanfic, so I'm going to put it on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/messages --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "thomas m wall" wrote: > > And now, now he wants us to talk to those violent giants? Isn't it > bad enough that he's got one on the Hogwarts staff? I enjoyed your example of ordinary stupid wizarding parents' opinion, but must nitpick this aspect: when Rita Skeeter revealed Hagrid's parentage and he hid in his hut in shame, Dumbledore was bombarded with letters from parents who remembered Hagrid from their own school days, remembered him affectionately enough that their letters were demanding that Dumbledore *keep* him on the job. <> In MY Potterverse, a cover story has been spread (perhaps published by Rita Skeeter) in which Lockhart was memory-wiped as a heroic battle injury while heroically rescuing three Hogwarts students including Famous Harry Potter from the monster that had been petrifying students all year. I dunno whether they admitted that the monster was a Basilisk or that it had come from Salazar's legendary Chamber of Secrets ... I doubt they admitted anything about Tom Riddle's diary possessing a student ... but they must have made some explanation of how the Chamber had been opened ... << So, about 35 students per year per house. (snip) So, apparently, we haven't even met half of 'em in Harry's year alone. >> The number of students at Hogwarts is a subject of fierce, almost theological, debate. You can read about it in http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hogwarts.html but that FAQ is too old to include my current theory: I believe that EVERY child in Britain and Ireland with ANY wizarding power is invited to attend a school of magic. (There may be other countries in which Muggle-born students are not invited, no matter how powerful.) If all the students go to Hogwarts as JKR said, then Hogwarts has 1000 students as JKR said, that would be all the wizarding children, based on many previous threads about the size of wizarding population. I believe that Hogwarts has several campus, the Castle that we see in canon is the main campus, has approx 280 students as shown in canon, and the children of less aptitude (and/or less family connections) are sent to other campus. Some listees believe that Hogwarts has only one campus, 280 students as depicted, and is the only School of Witchcraft and Wizardry, but all the lesser students are sent to a School of Magic instead. Either of those ideas would go along with Neville's statement that his family, even after they were reassured that he wasn't a Squib, doubted that he was magic enough to get in 'here': that is, to Hogwarts Main Campus rather than another campus, or to School of Witchcraft and Wizardry rather than to School of Magic. << Is there ever, ever, a mention in canon of wizarding elections? >> Yes. In QTTA, chapter four. Barberus Bragge, Chief of the Wizards' Council, brought a Golden Snidget to a Quidditch match in 1269 and offered 150 Galleons ("equivalent to over a million Galleons today") to the player who caught it. Kind-hearted Modesty Rabnott rescued the poor birdie and Chief Bragge confiscated her house. In a letter to her sister, she wrote: "Chief Bragge would have lost my vote if I'd had one." Some listies have asserted that Modesty's not having a vote means that the franchise was limited to males at that time, but I believe it INSTEAD means that there was a property requirement and Modesty did not own enough wealth to meet it. Ebony wrote: <> No, no, no! There is no canon to disprove that theory, but I am repulsed by it. Here is canon to cast a little doubt on it: FB, preface, footnote on the page that begins with the header WHAT IS A BEAST? "The Wizard's Council preceded the Ministry of Magic". I understand the inference that a Minister Of is a member of the Prime Minister's Cabinet, but can find no implication that a 's Council is part of Her Majesty's Government. Freely spinning a mile of yarns from a smidgeon of canon, I hypothesize that the Wizard's Council survives as a committee whose job is to choose the Minister of Magic. This committee may be elected by (and from within) a larger wizarding parliament (I like the name Witchingmeet, as a pun on witangemot) or be another hat worn by Hogwarts's Board of Governors. The Board of Governors may be self-perpetuating; the members have staggered terms, all the members whose terms end in even-numbered years vote for who to replace the members whose terms end in odd-numbered years, and vice versa. << it is very likely that wizarding governance varies greatly from country to country. >> That SHOULD be true, but JKR seems to have created a wizarding world in which every wizarding country has the same [tremendously British] system of government. QTTA quote: " the International Statute of Wizarding Screcy of 1692 made every Ministry of Magic directly responsible for the consequences of magical sports played within their territorries." Scott wrote: << This is so off-topic it's laughable, but has anyone ever wondered why a part of the human brain (The Hippocampus- it helps us with the development of long term memory) is named after a half-horse, half-fish monster? >> Because the people who named it thought it was shaped like a seahorse. Annemehr wrote: << So, to conclude, I think the Malfoys for the most part probably do live in that manor in the country. >> I completely agree with you. I have always believed that Malfoy Manor is a country estate surrounded by square miles rather than mere block of property. Some forest but mostly agricultural, farmed by wizarding families who live in a less-than-village (a dozen houses, one pub, no church) (so it doesn't contradict Hogsmeade as only wizarding village) near the front gates of the Big House. << I also think it quite likely they have a place in London which Lucius finds quite convenient for when he has business there with the Ministry or on some board of governors or other of which he is a member. >> With Apparation for adults and Floo for everyone, wizarding folk don't need a house in town. They can Apparate or Floo to Diagon Alley, Hogsmeade, a wizarding concert hall hidden in a warehouse- looking building in a Muggle industrial district, wherever, as easily from Malfoy Manor (presumably only from the gatehouse, for security reasons) as from a house or hotel in town. For that reason, I see no reason why the wizarding folk would need a Magic District in each Muggle city ... one for England and Wales, maybe another for Scotland and another for Ireland, should be in Floo and Apparation range of everyone. Steve bboy_mn wrote: << Even if you don't want to tackle the magic space/muggle space issue, how big do you see the magic city being? >> Not very ... I'm not sure I see it as large as Century City Shopping Gallery. I don't see it as having any residential section except people who live over their shops/offices and I don't see it as having any industrial section except artisans who do craft work in the same shops where they sell to to the public. Residences and a few artisan-ish factories are scattered over the country, in isolated areas or among Muggle neighbors. Sajid said: << Hermione also used Owl Order to buy Harry his Brookstick Servicing Kit. Her order seems to confirm the method of using Owl Order since she couldnt have visited Gringott's, or gotten anyone else to while she was in France. >> I've always imagined that Owl Order included sending a small bag of cash attached to the order form. Ffred Manawydan: << If wizards and muggles form relationships, how do they meet? >> We know that Muggle-born students attend Hogwarts and sometimes marry wizard-born classmates. Someone like Lily, she's supposed to be such a nice person, she would have Muggle friends from primary school as well as wizarding friends, and might she not introduce them to each other, maybe even as deliberate matchmaking? Anyway, there would be relatives of both spouses at the wedding, and other gatherings where both sets of in-laws would be invited, so people from the Muggle side of the family could meet wizarding folk that way. In a case like Seamus's parents where the father didn't know that the mother was a witch until after the marriage (or Tom Riddle's case, which he described the same way, altho' I have my doubts whether his parents were ever married at all, and whether his father *ever* knew that his mother was a witch), the witch must have been participating in Muggle society familiarly enough to be mistaken for a Muggle. I imagine that there are some old, old villages where the folk from the old, old Muggle families 'have always known' that the folk from the old wizarding families are wizards. I imagine there are some wizarding folk who associate with their Muggle neighbors while preserving wizarding secrecy ... the So-and-sos live over there; they're nice people but kind of weird, they're (artists, or hippies, or members of a religious cult that rejects technology) so they grow their own organic food and wear funny clothes and home-school their kids, but they ALWAYS have the BEST milk and eggs for sale at the farmers' market, and their kids are great soccer players ... From starropal at hotmail.com Sun Jan 26 02:20:21 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 20:20:21 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron and the Trouble with Veela Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50646 Torsten >No, no, no. Harry made a comment about Fleur using her Veela powers on >Cedric - but >that was just Harry talking to comfort his friend. There is NO indication >at all in canon >that Fleur has such powers! She is very beautiful, that's it, nothing more. But then why make her part veela at all? Why not just keep her a beautiful, capable (she is a champion) witch with a French accent? I'm not saying that her having Veela abilities would detract from her at all. "'An 'air from ze 'ead of a veela,' said Fleur. 'One of my grandmuzzer's.' So Fleur *was* part Veela, thought Harry..." GoF ch 18 pg 308 Why point it out like that? Why, until we find out her name and before that she really is part veela, call her 'the girl who looked like a veela' or 'the veela girl' (just had a creepy Peanuts Red Headed Girl moment ^_^ )? As far as canon goes, no, there is no part that smacks us over the head and says out right she does have veela powers. More like hints at it: "Ron went purple. He stared up at her, opened his mouth to reply, but nothing came out except a faint gurgling noise. The girl picked up the dish and carried it carefully off to the Ravenclaw table. Ron was still goggling at the girl as though he had never seen one before. Harry started to laugh. The sound seemed to jog Ron back to his senses. 'She's a *veela*!' He said hoarsely to Harry. 'Of coarse she isn't!' said Hermione tartly. 'I don't see anyone else gaping at her like an idiot!' But she wasn't entirely right about that. As the girl crossed the Hall, many boys' heads turned, and some of them seemed to have become temporarily speechless, just like Ron." - GoF ch 16 pg 252 Torsten: >It's not as if it takes Veela powers on her part to make Ron act without >thinking and >talk without a moment's consideration on what he is to do - he acts like >that all the >time. See the countless SHIP-posts for details ... But while Ron does tend to act or speak without thinking, its not things that are completely out of character for him. Like defending his family and friends against insults. BUT asking someone out on a date isn't something that Ron would normally do, much less in front of EVERYONE: "Ron looked up at Harry, a sort of blind horror on his face. 'Why did I do it?' he said wildly. 'I don't know what made me do it!' 'I don't know what made me do it!' Ron gasped again. 'What was I playing at? There were people - all around - I've gone mad - everyone watching! I was just walking past her in the entrance hall - she was standing there talking to Diggory - and it sort of came over me - and I asked her!' Ron moaned and put his face in his hands. He kept talking, though the words were indistinguishable. 'She looked at me like I was a sea slug or something. Didn't even answer. And then - I dunno - I just sort of came to my senses and ran for it.' 'She's part veela,' said Harry. 'You were right - her grandmother was one. It wasn't your fault, I bet you just walked past when she was turning on the old charm for Diggory and got a blast of it...'" GoF ch 22 pg 398-399 Sounds like a spell to me. "I don't know what made me do it!" "... it sort of came over me..." "I just sort of came to my senses.." So why isn't Harry (and ALL the male students of Hogwarts) effected? Because she's only PART veela. So someone like Ron who isn't as strong as Harry against spells would still be susceptible. As you said, "See the countless SHIP-posts for details." Which would explain... >Star Opal: > >While it would seem it didn't effect Cedric (seeing he > >still went with Cho), it was directed at him. (Gof, page 399) Torsten: >... but even IF she had these powers, they *might* well have affected >Cedric at this >moment, with him changing his mind later. Ron and Harry stopped being >enthralled by >the Veela at the world cup once they turned their power off. Plus, Cedric >might have >had asked Cho already, and he's not the kind of boy who tells a girl he's >changed his >mind and rather wants to go with someone else. ... why Cedric wouldn't be effected (out of the whole of Hogwarts applicants, he's chosen to be champion). Though, I'll concede, what you said is very possible too. Star Opal who has nothing against Fleur and is sorry if she gave that impression _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From toberead at excite.com Sun Jan 26 02:57:07 2003 From: toberead at excite.com (aquariajade ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 02:57:07 -0000 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50647 I did a search for "favorite line from the book" and got no results, so I guess this has not been discussed before. I have read this list everyday, and noticed that some very serious subjects are discussed, and I would like to lighten it up just a bit for short time. My favorite line from the books is: "I like a healthy breeze around my privates, thanks." - GoF I can not get past this scene without laughing. What are your favorites? Jade From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sun Jan 26 04:07:25 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 23:07:25 EST Subject: Wizarding Crime? Message-ID: <15b.1aee1833.2b64b8fd@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50648 I've been debating with myself trying to figure out one thing: how does the Ministry try/convict wizards who commit crimes against Muggles? I know Arthur Weasley said that there are instances of Muggle baiting, but what about robbery? It's alot easier to break into a Muggle bank than it is to break into Gringotts. What's stopping a wizard from Apparating into a bank vault, taking the money, Disapparating, and then exchanging the money at Gringotts? Could MoM even find them if they did? Would there be any way to try/convict them? ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jan 26 04:23:28 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 04:23:28 -0000 Subject: Wizarding Crime? In-Reply-To: <15b.1aee1833.2b64b8fd@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50649 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: > I've been debating with myself trying to figure out one thing: how > does the Ministry try/convict wizards who commit crimes against > Muggles? (snip) What's stopping a wizard from Apparating into > a bank vault, taking the money, Disapparating, and then exchanging > the money at Gringotts? Could MoM even find them if they did? > Would there be any way to try/convict them? Would it even be illegal under wizarding law, as long as wizarding secrecy was not threatened? From chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com Sun Jan 26 04:40:53 2003 From: chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com (alora ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 04:40:53 -0000 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50650 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aquariajade " <> My favorite line from the books is: > > "I like a healthy breeze around my privates, thanks." - GoF > > I can not get past this scene without laughing. > > What are your favorites? > > Jade Does it have to be one line? C'mon now, everyone, say it with me: His eyes are as green as a fresh pickled toad, His hair is as dark as a blackboard. I wish he was mine, he's really divine, The hero who conquered the Dark Lord. I cringe right along with Harry every time I read it! It's hysterical! Just my two knuts worth.. Alora :) From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sun Jan 26 04:56:18 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 20:56:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030126045618.49129.qmail@web40509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50651 "aquariajade " wrote: I did a search for "favorite line from the book" and got no results, so I guess this has not been discussed before. I have read this list everyday, and noticed that some very serious subjects are discussed, and I would like to lighten it up just a bit for short time. My favorite line from the books is: "I like a healthy breeze around my privates, thanks." - GoF I can not get past this scene without laughing. What are your favorites? Me: Oh...so many cool lines I love, but can't remember. This one is one of my favourites, though: In Divination, while gazing into the crystal ball: "There's going to be loads of fog tonight." Maria LOL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Sun Jan 26 05:14:37 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 21:14:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cho Message-ID: <20030126051437.56806.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50652 I'm erring on the side of caution and snipping very little for the benefit of those who wasn't following this thread. My regrets to those who has to retread old territory. * * * Kelly L.: > Personally, I've always liked Cho. > Admittedly, we don't know her > very well yet, but everything I've > seen of her has been good. We > don't learn very much at all about > her during PoA, but during GoF > we get a couple of glimpses of her. > What do we see? A girl who > doesn't wear the mean-spirited > "Cedric Diggory/Potter Stinks" > badges, even when all of her friends > do. Even though it's possible that > she and Cedric were dating even > then. A girl who doesn't giggle at > Harry when he tries to ask > her out, even when her friends do. > And a girl who is polite to > Harry as she turns him down. > She has a sort of independence and > dignity that I like; many teenage > girls are much more swayed by the > crowd than she is. Madeleine agrees: > I think Cho makes a lot of major > choices and decisions that show a > strength of character and maturity > level that is not seen in many of > the other characters. She doesn't > follow the crowd, she finds her own > way through life. Even if it means > publically going against what others, > including her friends are doing (ie. > Cho not wearing the badge, even when > she is surrounded by friends wearing > badges). I like Cho and I think she > is an excellent role model. I concur - Cho has yet to make a choice that speaks ill of her. Having known a great many girls (NOT grown women really) who do choose to play at being the helpless damsel, I thought the following indicate that she is no simpering maiden. Perhaps this is one of the reasons she's the only female seeker we know of, IIRC. PoA ~~~~~~ US HB 189th page of 435 What with the promise of anti-dementor lessons from Lupin, the thought that he might never have to hear his mother's death again, and the fact that Ravenclaw flattened Hufflepuff in their Quidditch match at the end of November, Harry's mood took definite upturn. PoA ~~~~~~ UK PB 141st page of 317 [see note at end] In the match between Ravenclaw & Hufflepuff, if this game follows the pattern typical of Hogwarts games, Cho grabbed the Snitch before Cedric did, who BTW didn't hold that against her the way the Gryffindor males had held his beating Harry to the Snitch against Cedric. How these two competitors on the Quidditch pitch ended up hand in hand off the field in the next book is unknown to us. But I am gratified to see at least one female besides Hermione who doesn't 'let the guy win' for the sake of playing to his ego. [side note: yes, I do not think much of females who employ the time-'honored' and peer-approved technique for catching males - the bait-and-switch - mostly because I have heard this all too often from the crestfallen males: "But she was sooo perfect before our wedding!" If it come to that, I don't think much of the males who fall for that technique either. Buyer beware.] Kathryn Wolber responds to Kelly's replay of my attempt to get clarification from Maria on her view of Cho: > So far in the books, Cho isn't > supposed to make decisions...she's > *not* a main character. So you > don't like her because of how JKR > decided to write her into the > story? That doesn't make sense. Suspecting that there is sense here that has gone unexpressed is why I asked Maria those very pointed questions, y'know. The post I responded to ended with what seemed to contradict the assertion at the beginning about not liking Harry with anyone. Kathryn Wolber: > You can say it annoys you that we > don't know her well enough to make > a judgement, But you don't know > enough about her to like her or not. > She hasn't shown poor character > thus far, so I don't see why anyone > has a reason to not like her. Let's look closely at Maria's reply: > Cho didn't make any choices. That's > part of why I don't like her. She's > just this neutral character in the > background that for some reason > occupies Harry's thoughts and *this > annoys me*. Not knowing Cho well enough to justify Harry's attraction (which itself is likely not wholly based on anything that can be typeset in words) seems to be at the root of Maria's disquiet. Maria WAS not clear...but she IS much more so now. Kathryn, this is a good thing, don't you think? Snuffles in reference to the scene where Cho turns Harry down: > I always thought there was a lot to > see in Cho during this particular > scene in the book. I felt as though > she would have accepted Harry's > offer were it not that she was > promised to Cedric for the Yule Ball. > I got the sense that she knew and > had some sense of empathy for the > position Harry was in, and she > dealt with it in a kind and gentle > way. Teenage girls aren't always as > sweet as she was, and there was a > certain level of discomfort that I > chalked up to not wanting to hurt > Harry's feelings as she was aware > of how hard it must be to ask a girl > out, much less an older girl. This scene is an interesting contrast to the later one in Gryffindor Tower where emotions were running high as back-up dates refused to have that role thrust upon them. In trying to make the girls bring into reality his OWN unwarranted expectations, Ron ended up in a mess of his own making. We've all been there, no? Oh alright. Just me then. Maria replied to Kathryn with this restatement of what Maria has said in verbiage that was snipped: > First off, I dont dislike Cho > because of what she is like I > dont know what she is like. I dont > like her as Harrys romantic > interest. > > You see, I hated to see Harry melt > like ice cream in the sun as soon as > he laid eyes on her. For two and a > half years of his life we watched > Harry, Ron, Hermione, Ginny and many > other people grow and develop, weve > grown to love some of them and > dislike others *for a reason*, and > here comes Cho Chang of whom we *and > Harry* know *positively nothing* > (at the moment) except that she is > extremely pretty and Harry falls > for her like Romeo for Juliet. Maria adds: > First of all, I never wrote that I > don't like Cho because she doesn't > return Harry's feelings, I never > even implied it, and I am *never* > going to do it. C'mon, even I know > that's stupid . > > I wrote that I don't dislike Cho > Chang as a person. If anywhere else > in that post I wrote "I don't like > Cho Chang," it was to save space. > I can even say this: I don't like > Cho Chang as a character. > > I'm sorry for losing people on that > particular point. Which at this time, can only be the folks who come late to this thread. Their not reading the whole thread carefully is beyond of your control. Maria: > As for Cho being very decent in GoF > (I am not arguing with that) - well, > that was after Harry first got a > crush on her. I was already very > annoyed at it. I can't help myself > - sorry. Petra, at another point in thread: > Do you still hold Cho responsible > for Harry falling for her at first > sight? Maria: > No. Moreover, I never did. I believe you. It's just that it sounded to me like you did and I was confused by that. Petra: > So, do you dislike Harry for his > 'love at first sight,'a physical > reaction that he has no control > over? Maria: > No. But the fact annoys me. Me too. Petra: > do you dislike JKR for writing that > scene the way she did? Maria: > No. I love JKR, but that scene > irritates me. Maria: > And I don't think I have anything > else to say on the subject at this > point. I'll stop poking you now...now that I understand you sooo much more clearly. > Maria, > > who thanks Petra Pan for helping her > to sort out her thoughts. :) Pensieve Petra, at your service. Always an eager audience for outstanding achievements of grace under pressure. Brava! Particularly apropos for Monday, the day I had off in honor of Martin Luther King, Jr. :) Having had her theory referenced, Lilac weighed-in. In part: > Just for the record, it was my > first attempt at a "bangy" theory, > without realizing what "banging" > really is (I still don't understand > it...oh well). I just thought it > would really be tricky of JKR to > have Cho turn evil...she is one you > would never guess in a million years > to turn to the dark side. I'll > admit, it's not a very good theory, > with absolutely _no_ canon support Your theory is no LESS plausible than every other theory floating around about just what is simmering in JKR's cauldron of inventions. To elevate it to being MORE plausible by citing your dislike of Barbie dolls who are ugly on the inside is what landed you in Priori Postis #50232. This and the fact that you displayed all the key indicators for holding a shipping bias in those old posts. Lilac: > AND I'll admit it...I didn't like > Cho *the character* too much when > I first read the books, and I > couldn't figure out why. In fact, > I didn't *want* to figure out why > for the longest time. I saw her > as a monkey wrench for the SHIP > subplots *I* thought JKR was going > to write, so she was not "wanted" > ...by me anyway. I didn't hate > her, just not a fan of hers. But > she is so likable in every way that > the wonderful Cho fans have > mentioned in previous posts. > Doesn't make any sense, does it? It doesn't, does it? Lilac: > I learned some very important > things from my discussion with > Jessica. First off, other people > had very different interpretations > of these characters, and that was > *okay*. We could agree to disagree. > Second, our personal experiences > flavored our interpretations > greatly. For Jessica, she > mentioned that Ginny's embarrasing > behavior reminded her of herself at > that age. She feels she's more > like Hermione now, but it felt like > going through hell to get to where > she is now. I can understand and > respect that. :) Lilac: > Thirdly, I was making the same > *judgements* about Cho that I > imagined others were making about > Ginny...what a hypocrite, huh? > Especially since I started the whole > "Cho is Evil" thread (a very > short-lived thread back then). My > only consolation is that I didn't > go and start up a "Cho is Evil" > Yahoo-group, because then I would > be the world's biggest hypocrite. > [No offense intended for members of > the evil Ginny or (if there is one) > evil Cho yahoo groups!] One point of interest: "Cho is Evil" is not actually new in this fandom by any stretch of the imagination. There is (was?) an "Evil!Cho" group on Yahoo, isn't there? You were not alone. But then, it would seem, you are not there anymore either. Lilac: > I think the real reason I didn't > like Cho is that I was *jealous* of > her. I mean, think about it...she > has it *all*...she's beautiful, > smart, talented Quidditch-wise, > dated a school Champion, AND to top > it all off, she's nice. I was > reminded of those girls in high > school just like her, who you hated > for no good reason (aka jealousy), > so I disliked Cho for the same > no-good reason. I know...how > utterly shallow of me. However, > this book does bring out the "teen" > in you, and when reliving those teen > experiences with our beloved Trio, > feelings just kind of "spring-up" > seemingly out of nowhere. At least > it happened that way with me. > > It's a good thing to analyze why we > feel certain ways about these > characters, because we learn > something about ourselves in the > process. For example, I learned > how not to assume that everyone > feels the same way I do about > certain characters AND how to not > ignore the "beam" in my own eye > while pointing out the "motes" in > others' eyes. Good to see a loose thread tied up. :) You'd have gotten almost the exact same response from me back when you first posted your theory if not for the fact that I was (as usual) incredibly behind. Glad Jessica and you had explored your reactions so thoroughly. Now, O Teaching One on Mommy Leave, you get to pass this on. Petra, much to read before she sleeps a n :) [NOTE - if you don't own either the US hardback or the UK paperback, you now have the mathematical means to get pretty close to the right page in your edition. You just need to look up the last page number for your ed...and get a calculator.] __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Sun Jan 26 05:20:51 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 21:20:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: BANGS as sleight of hand Message-ID: <20030126052051.42326.qmail@web21109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50653 It has struck me that for almost every unexpected plot twist, there is foreshadowing...and where there are these tidbits that hint at what comes later, there are almost always big noisy bangs that distract your attention. JKR even mentions an instance in GoF of Harry's distraction and how he was distracted. ~~~~ end paragraph of Ch. 3: He had cake, and Dudley had nothing but grapefruit; it was a bright summer's day, he would be leaving Privet Drive tomorrow, his scar felt perfectly normal again, and he was going to watch the Quidditch World Cup. It was hard, just now, to feel worried about anything - even Lord Voldemort. ~~~~ GoF - "The Invitation" Nice bit of magicianship. Hide the sleight of hand by pointing it out. Petra, a n :) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From kewiromeo at aol.com Sun Jan 26 05:29:21 2003 From: kewiromeo at aol.com (kewiromeo at aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 00:29:21 EST Subject: Gringotts Bank, Parsletounge, New Voldie Message-ID: <1f1.32a863.2b64cc31@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50654 Gringotts bank: I think we are completely missing the point of this bank when discussing the matter. This establishment is owned and governed by goblins. They have no matters with the Ministry of Magic or anything of the like. They do what they want. When the whole Death Eater incident happened at the Quidditch World Cup, they were too concerned with money to care (I assume that Bagman had borrowed money from the bank, or simply there is an OTB (off track betting) division of Gringotts. We are aware of the ways to take out money from the bank, but there should be no reason that the Ministry would intervene in money matters. What do you think all those Goblin Rebellions were all about? IMO they wanted to do their own thing with money, and they revolted and are not simply moneykeepers. Do any of you really think that they care if Sirius or anyone else is a convicted criminal? As far as we all know, the Ministry are a bunch of duffers (which suggests that Fudge was a Hufflepuff). Parsletounge: I have no sense of spelling when it comes to these words. Anyways, does anyone besides me think that Harry and Voldie get to talk using Parsletounge? I mean, they don't necessarily have to speak in English when battling. Let's say that Harry or Voldie have something to say that they dont want anyone else to hear, they simply say it in parsletounge. And, does anyone think that the Boa Constrictor from the zoo will come back? Could be fun. New Voldie: The ancient magic that brought Voldie back seems to work in a special way. Any wizard or witch that hated him would have been enough to bring him back, but he wanted Harry who would make him stronger. I have said before that Harry had spider vemon in him and that might have made Harry's blood a little less potent. What about the other components. Wormtail gave him his hand, but he has that bond to Harry. "Flesh of a servant willingly given" which isn't really Wormtail by description. Maybe he still is relatively weak. Tzvi of Brooklyn -Curiousity killed my cat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grayhorsestudio at attbi.com Sun Jan 26 04:21:40 2003 From: grayhorsestudio at attbi.com (grayhorse ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 04:21:40 -0000 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50655 My favorite passage is not a happy one (sorry!): "And as he heard Voldemort draw nearer still, he [Harry] knew one thing only, and it was beyond fear or reason - he was not going to die crouching here like a child playing hide-and-seek; he was not going to die kneeling at Voldemort's feet... he was going to die upright like his father, and he was going to die trying to defend himself, even if no defence was possible..." (GoF p. 575 UK deluxe) You go, Harry. K From starropal at hotmail.com Sun Jan 26 04:24:02 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 22:24:02 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50656 Jade: >My favorite line from the books is: > >"I like a healthy breeze around my privates, thanks." - GoF > >I can not get past this scene without laughing. > >What are your favorites? Gah! That has got to be THE best line in the books. ^_^ I also like: "Constant Vigilance!" "I've got two Neptunes here," said Harry after a while, frowning down at his piece of parchment, "that can't be right, can it?" "Aaaaah," said Ron, imitating Professor Trelawney's mystical whisper, "when two Neptunes appear in the sky, it is a sure sign that a midget in glasses is being born, Harry. . . ." "It's because of you, Perce," said George seriously. "And there'll be little flags on the hood, with HB on them -" "- for Humongous Bighead," said Fred. Star "Constant Vigilance!" Opal _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From probono at rapidnet.com Sun Jan 26 06:21:05 2003 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 06:21:05 -0000 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50657 There are too many! But I defintely know that one of my favorite scenes is in PoA: There was a moment's silence. Then- "Fine!" said Hermione suddenly, getting up and cramming 'Unfogging the Future' back into her bag. "Fine!" she repeated, swinging the bag over her shoulder and almost knocking Ron off his chair. "I give up! I'm leaving!" And to the whole class's amazement, Hermione strode over to the trapdoor, kicked it open, and climbed down the ladder out of sight. Not only did I wish I had those guts when I was that age, but I think it's such a defining moment in Hermione's character, perhaps the most defining moment for that character in the series to date. And also a favorite from PoA (this from Snape to Harry): "What would your head have been doing in Hogsmeade, Potter? Your head is not allowed in Hogsmeade. No part of your body has permission to be in Hogsmeade." I can't help but snicker every time I read that. I hope these both make it into the next film! -Tanya From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Jan 26 06:33:32 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 06:33:32 -0000 Subject: .../WizGovt/MagicCity/... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50658 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) " wrote: > > Ebony wrote: > > < UK's Muggle government that has an unusual degree of autonomy, >> > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > CATLADY: > No, no, no! There is no canon to disprove that theory, ... > - - - - - - - - - - bboy_mn: There is canon that indicates (PoA) that the Wizarding and the highest levels of Muggle government are aware of and in contact with each other. Fudge informed the Prime Minister (muggle) that Sirius Black had escaped. That would imply that at the highest levels, the wizard and muggle world have always known about each other. Side note: I wonder if the Royal Family knows? That has to be a nasty shock. The newly elected Prime Minister is taken into a room by the Secret Service (or whatever they call them) and they say, "Welcome to office, ... oh, and by the way, there are wizards, witches, and hidden magical cities in the UK, but you can't tell anyone. Oh... and dragons too. Ah... and hippogriffs. Would you like a cup of tea? ...biscuit? ...No? They really do fly on brooms you know. Any questions then?" Just a thought. - bboy_mn -end this part- > > Annemehr wrote: > > << So, to conclude, I think the Malfoys for the most part probably > do live in that manor in the country. >> > - - - - - - - - - - - > CATALADY: > ...edited... > > With Apparation for adults and Floo for everyone, wizarding folk > don't need a house in town. They can Apparate or Floo to Diagon > Alley, Hogsmeade, ... > ...edited... > For that reason, I see no reason why the wizarding folk would need > a Magic District in each Muggle city ... one for England and Wales, > maybe another for Scotland and another for Ireland, should be in > Floo and Apparation range of everyone. > - - - - - - - - - - - - - bboy_mn: There is a definite limit to apparation. In PS/SS, when Dumbledore went to London, it appears as though, or was implied that he flew, and one presumes he flew a broom. As a side note: this brings up something I am dying to know. What are the limitations on Floo, Portkey and Apparation? Ron implied, and later Arthur actually did it, that (assumed) Burrow/Devon to London/Surrey and back was within range. That's 216km/135mi. London to Hogwarts [area (2)if you've seen my maps] is 697km/436mi. (for reference: London->Paris =341km/213mi, & London->Edinburgh =534km/335mi). To my knowledge, we have never heard of anyone apparating from London to Hogwarts, not even a vague implication. So, I have arbitrarily assume 500km/300mi; just short of London to Edinburgh. Of course, you can make greater distance by apparating in two or three hops. Having said that, I don't think being within apparating distance is the deciding factor as to whether a town/city has a magic city hidden within. That's like saying that all town need only be one tank of petrol appart. I think there are social and aesthetic reasons why wizards may want to live somewhere. Torquay, Bristol, and Cardiff have the ocean and beaches. Devon has clotted cream, strawberry jam, and a quiet rural life. The lake country in the north of England might appeal so some, and the a peaceful city life might bring them to Birmingham. The point is, I don't think wizards setup magic cities based on apparating distance, any more that cities are setup on driving distance. It's based on how desireable a location is and the amount of wizarding history that is based in that area. I will amend that by saying that I doubt that every major city has a hidden magic neighborhood, but I suspect (obviously, no proof) that the biggest cities, most desireable cities, and some cities with substantial wizarding history do. In reality, that's only a few more cities than your guess. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From srsiriusblack at aol.com Sun Jan 26 06:38:30 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 01:38:30 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Muggle questions Message-ID: <1d1.d6bae7.2b64dc66@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50659 In a message dated 25/01/2003 20:13:16 Eastern Standard Time, starropal at hotmail.com writes: > >Debbie asks: > > > > > Now an ignorant question...Hermione mentions that magic and electricity > > > don't work together. I'm assuming she means just at Hogwarts, right? > > > Otherwise, wouldn't muggles find it weird that some neighbors only use > > > candles? > > > I'm surprised that no one's already said this (at least not that I saw - > soooo many messages) but if that was true to everywhere than a lot of > things > would be different at the Dursley house wouldn't it? When Dobby, Harry, or > the Weasleys use magic there is no note made about how suddenly the house > is > plunged into darkness or how all the appliances burn out. > > In P/SS: > When Dumbledore apparates on Privet Drive (I'm assuming since he appears > "so > suddenly and silently you'd of thought he just popped out of the ground") > He > still needs to turn of the street lights - one by one in fact. > > Also with all these shooting stars, Vernon is still able to work like > normal. No phone problems, no electricity problems. Its not on the news > about wide spread outages, ect. I always understood that Electricity was somewhat of a muggle invention- Hagrid makes note of 'all the things muggles come up with' in PS when he takes Harry from the shack on the rock to London. It just always made sense to me that the WW doesn't need such trifles as electricty... Think about.. they can power just about anything with magic. -Snuffles trying to really read all of the posts from the past two weeks now "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Jan 26 06:57:01 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 06:57:01 -0000 Subject: Gringotts Bank, Parsletounge, New Voldie In-Reply-To: <1f1.32a863.2b64cc31@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50660 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, kewiromeo at a... wrote: > Kewiromeo: > Parsletounge: > > ...edited... And, does anyone think that the Boa Constrictor from > the zoo will come back? Could be fun. > -end this part- bboy_mn: Great Merlin's ghost! He exclaims. There is a rumor that Harry is going to get a new PET! Could it be??? Could the Boa Constrictor come to Harry's aid and ask Harry to keep him out of the nasty English winter cold? It's a possibility. -bboy_mn-end this part- > Kewiromeo: > New Voldie: > > ...edited... I have said before that Harry had spider vemon in him > ... What about the other components. Wormtail gave him his hand, but > he has that bond to Harry. "Flesh of a servant willingly given" .... > Maybe he still is relatively weak. > > Tzvi of Brooklyn > -Curiousity killed my cat bboy_mn: Flesh of a sevant reluctantly given? Flesh of a servant coercively given? Flesh of a sevant fearfully given? Oh yeah, I think Voldie has a problem here. The spider venom is a tuff call because, you remember, that Voldie was kept alive by Unicorn blood mixed with snake venom. That may or may not be a problem, while they are both venom, evey venom has different characteristics. My brother-in-law is a herpetologist (into snakes and reptiles. He has posionous snakes and aligator at home.) has debunked a lot of venom myths for me. Like getting bit several times doesn't cause you to build up an immunity or resistance; just the opposite, it builds a sensitivity. Anti-venom is very very specific to each type of venom. Venomous bites are nasty; localized tissue starts dying within minutes. So, the spider venom is a loose cannon. It could be nothing, or it could be very significant. I hate to bring up 'The Gleam' again, but I think Dumbledore sees a potential flaw in Voldie's plan, but working that flaw to his advantage is not going to be easy. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From Ali at zymurgy.org Sun Jan 26 10:28:57 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 10:28:57 -0000 Subject: Gringotts Bank In-Reply-To: <1f1.32a863.2b64cc31@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50661 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, kewiromeo at a... wrote: Gringotts bank: <<>> Missing the point? I would agree that your version is certainly plausible, and in Message 50580 I did mention the idea of a Gringotts without any MoM influence. I personally believe it to be unlikely: <> I think it would be stretching the evidence to say that Gringotts "have no matters with the MoM". They may well do what they want. However, it is hard to believe that they do exactly what they want, as if that were the case, the entire WW could be beholden to them, and would have set up an alternative banking system. I would imagine that Gringotts is a private enterprise just like banks in Muggle Britain, but they do have to abide by the laws of the land. IMO the point about this debate ? and indeed many others, is that we do not have cast iron answers . Some ideas are certainly more plausible than others, but discussion opens our minds to alternate theories, however wrong JKR might prove them to be. Ali From Ali at zymurgy.org Sun Jan 26 11:38:38 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 11:38:38 -0000 Subject: Democracy and Prejudice in the WW ( with slight tinge of FF) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50662 Ebony wrote: <<<--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali " wrote: > This is an interesting point. I don't think politics (in the sense > we would understand it) happens. I think that the wizarding community is too small to have true democracy, and as all the major players seem to know one another, I suspect that the MoM just gets chosen according to who the great and good feel would be best at > representing them with Muggle leaders. Which would explain why he > would go and visit Hagrid personally.>>> Err, no I didn't.. Sorry, that must have been my bad snipping, it was actually Michelle. Ebony asked: << Rather, I've always seen the Ministry as a "hidden" branch of the UK's Muggle government that has an unusual degree of autonomy, but that *someone* in the Muggle government secretly knows about them. I can't remember if I've got canon evidence for this, or if it's just a gut feeling, but I think that wizards and witches are still subjects of the Queen. *Especially* since there doesn't seem to be a completely parallel wizarding world that is autonomous, but just ind. separate institutions.>>> In terms of being subjects of the Queen, I think that the answer is yes. When under the Imperius curse, Dean Thomas hops around singing the National Anthem. Not the WW National Anthem, just the National Anthem. I believe that Harry would note if it was different to the one he would have been brought up with ? although Dean was also Muggle-born, so the evidence isn't conclusive. Fudge speaks to the Prime Minister about Sirius Black, which could imply that they are an equal footing, or he is somehow answerable to the PM. IIRC, Harry is told that the main purpose of the MoM is to keep the magical community secret from the rest of the population which could then imply that that they are governed by the ordinary British Government for everything else. However, the WW appear to have little respect or understanding for their Muggle counterparts, and I cannot believe that they feel themselves governed by them. Perhaps the true answer is somewhat different; that the WW don't need to be governed as they are largely autonomous. They need only rules to protect them from Muggle discovery. I am not happy with this idea, although I've struggled to verbalise exactly why. It seems to me that it would make the WW either a kind of Utopia or very primitive, neither of which do I detect when reading the books. The Minister of Magic seems to be a very bureaucratic position, somehow answerable to, but not exactly part of the British Government. The WW do have many Laws and Regulations. They have a different monetary system, a different criminal justice system, a different education system. In many ways, the WW and the Muggle World are paralleled. They run both with and alongside each other. I think I need to believe that the WW is somehow democratic. It would need to be from the WW for the WW. The Mom simply being there, and being responsible for the WW isn't quite enough (for me). I was interested in Michelle's idea about the Minister of Magic sitting in the House of Lords. In reality though, what kind of influence (other than magical) would an apolitical Peer have? It is possible that the Laws of the MoM stem from our Parliament. An Act of Parliament, perhaps dating back centuries could have been passed authorising any rules of a magical nature to become Law in the form of a directive, rather than having to back through Parliament each time. This would have the unfortunate consequence that the MoM Laws would look anything but democratic, and Arthur would talk about "Directives" rather than "Acts". Ebony again: << I cannot see Tom Riddle's ambitions stopping at the Channel, or the Bosporus, myself.>> No indeed. I'm sure JKR said that Voldemort's aim was control of Europe, and then World Domination. Ali From michelleapostolides at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jan 26 12:30:34 2003 From: michelleapostolides at yahoo.co.uk (Michelle Apostolides) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 12:30:34 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Democracy and Prejudice in the WW ( with slight tinge of FF) References: Message-ID: <001001c2c536$ba6e6ca0$bb3c2850@ukf974444> No: HPFGUIDX 50663 Ali said : Perhaps the true answer is somewhat different; that the WW don't need to be governed as they are largely autonomous. They need only rules to protect them from Muggle discovery. I am not happy with this idea, although I've struggled to verbalise exactly why. It seems to me that it would make the WW either a kind of Utopia or very primitive, neither of which do I detect when reading the books. Me Well I think I understand what you mean and I think I can explain the reasons for their autonomy. They have no desire to out themselves to the rest of the world. Therefore it is in everybody's interests not to break rules and out themselves. Futhermore we are talking about a society that keeps servants, a very strict social hierarchy ( viz Malfoy ), extremist elements ( latent Death Eaters ) and apparantly seems to be quite small. The books and the film just make me think that JKR wants us to think of an earlier age and attitudes when we think about the Wizarding world. Ali I was interested in Michelle's idea about the Minister of Magic sitting in the House of Lords. In reality though, what kind of influence (other than magical) would an apolitical Peer have? Me I don't think he is there to influence directly. I think he is there so that there is a justification for his being privy to discussion on matters which may affect his world. It has also been suggested to me ( thanks to Christian Stuboe ) that he may also be a Privy Councillor. According to the Britannia Panorama : Membership of the Council, which is retained for life, except for very occasional removals, is granted by the Sovereign, on the recommendation of the Prime Minister, to people eminent in public life in Britain and the independent monarchies of the Commonwealth. Cabinet ministers must be Privy Counsellors and, if not already members, are admitted to membership before taking their oath of office at a meeting of the Council. There are about 400 Privy Counsellors. Therefore who would really know if the MoM was one of them ? Just like the House Of Lords is so big that you wouldn't notice him in a big sitting. Thus giving him a way of making sure that he has a way of informing the Muggle government how any planned changes in law would affect his community. Kind of like places like the Falklands and Tristan Da Cunha are part of the UK, whilst being independant. Ali.... It is possible that the Laws of the MoM stem from our Parliament. An Act of Parliament, perhaps dating back centuries could have been passed authorising any rules of a magical nature to become Law in the form of a directive, rather than having to back through Parliament each time. This would have the unfortunate consequence that the MoM Laws would look anything but democratic, and Arthur would talk about "Directives" rather than "Acts". Me Yeah that would make sense. But as I said, the Wizards would make some laws for their own protection too. Michelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 26 14:07:19 2003 From: gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com (gingersnape1966 ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 14:07:19 -0000 Subject: Snape's Riddle (was Re:missing scenes) In-Reply-To: <20030125220952.28010.qmail@web40504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50664 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Maria Kirilenko wrote: > > Marina wrote: > This got me thinking about a number of > > other "missing scenes" in the books that I would've > loved to see. > > I would also immensely enjoy having a picture of Snape's Challnge in PS in addition to the riddle itself, so that I could solve it myself. Me: You can see the riddle! It's on a site called "Why do you love Snape" or something like that. The site is http://whysnape.tripod.com/analysis.htm It is basicly for women who *really* dig Snape (guilty as charged), but it does have the riddle. With a picture so you can solve it. Enjoy, Ginger From sevothtarte at gmx.net Sun Jan 26 14:25:32 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 15:25:32 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Goblins (was: Gringotts Bank, Parsletounge, New Voldie) In-Reply-To: <1f1.32a863.2b64cc31@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50665 Tzvi of Brooklyn: >I think we are completely missing the point of this bank when discussing the >matter. This establishment is owned and governed by goblins. They have no >matters with the Ministry of Magic or anything of the like. They do what they >want. I'm very curious as to which role the Goblins will play in VW II. They seem all to likely to get into the heat of things (they apparently started rebellions every other week), and they do have power. By themselves ("They're quite capable of dealing with wizards,' said Hermione, sipping more of her Butterbeer. "They're very clever. They're not like house-elves, who never stick up for themselves." - GoF, Rita Skeeter's Scoop) and in terms of money, too. Wonder what Lucius Malfoy would say if Dumbledore got the Gringotts Goblins to close all DE accounts. ^_~ Serious, they won't do that, and from FBAWTFT it seems like Goblins enjoy playing the jester role, mocking the rulers, but I don't think they'll stay out once the war gets serious. What do you think? Torsten From sevothtarte at gmx.net Sun Jan 26 14:16:08 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 15:16:08 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50666 Jade: >I did a search for "favorite line from the book" and got no results, >so I guess this has not been discussed before. I have read this list >everyday, and noticed that some very serious subjects are discussed, >and I would like to lighten it up just a bit for short time. Terribly hard choice, even when considering funny lines alone, but Lee Jordan's Quidditch commentaries rule. ^^ "So - after that obvious and disgusting bit of cheating -" "Jordan!" growled Professor McGonagall "I mean, after that open and revolting foul -" "Jordan, I'm warning you -" "All right, all right. Flint nearly kills the Gryffindor Seeker, which could happen to anyone, I'm sure..." (PS/SS. Quidditch) Torsten From sevothtarte at gmx.net Sun Jan 26 14:06:27 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 15:06:27 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron and the Trouble with Veela In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50667 Star Opal: >But then why make her part veela at all? Why not just keep her a beautiful, >capable (she is a champion) witch with a French accent? I'm not saying that >her having Veela abilities would detract from her at all. Maybe just to add one more point for fans to argue about - what's at work here, Ron's hormones or Fleur's possible special power? ^_~ >Why point it out like that? Why, until we find out her name and before that >she really is part veela, call her 'the girl who looked like a veela' or >'the veela girl' (just had a creepy Peanuts Red Headed Girl moment ^_^ )? Why point it out? To add another red herring and to give the reader a better impression of just how gorgeous she is. If Snape does indeed resemble a vampire in appearance, and Harry had seen one, there would be a mention of "Snape, who looked like a vampire", but it wouldn't neccessarily mean our favorite potions master really is a blood-sucker. At least not in the literal sense. ^_~ >"Ron went purple. He stared up at her, opened his mouth to reply, but >nothing came out except a faint gurgling noise. >But she wasn't entirely right about that. As the girl crossed the Hall, many >boys' heads turned, and some of them seemed to have become temporarily >speechless, just like Ron." - GoF ch 16 pg 252 So why just "many boys' heads", why not "all" or "nearly all"? It's very unlikely the typical student has that much willpower. And why aren't the teachers affected? >But while Ron does tend to act or speak without thinking, its not things >that are completely out of character for him. Like defending his family and >friends against insults. BUT asking someone out on a date isn't something >that Ron would normally do, much less in front of EVERYONE: He didn't do it till then, since he's not been interested in girls before. Ron acts without thinking when he's overwhelmed by emotions. We most often see it when it's based on anger or lately jealousy, true, but here's it's love or strong sexual attraction, call it what you want. >Sounds like a spell to me. "I don't know what made me do it!" "... it sort >of came over me..." "I just sort of came to my senses.." But if Fleur's supposed-to-be Veela powers had been at work there, why was just Ron behaving oddly? There were plenty other people around, but Ron mentions none of them acting strangely, and he saw the whole scene of Fleur and Cedric talking surrounded by peers before he lost his senses. Remember, "As the girl crossed the Hall, many boys' heads turned, and some of them seemed to have become temporarily speechless, just like Ron." If they were affected there, they should have been affected in the corridor, too. >So why isn't Harry (and ALL the male students of Hogwarts) effected? Because >she's only PART veela. So someone like Ron who isn't as strong as Harry >against spells would still be susceptible. Wouldn't it be odd if Ron, who's been through real Veela attraction didn't grow to resist a minor version of it? It's possible to overcome Imperio - some can do it almost immediatly, others need more time - after all, and Veela powers seem like a weaker, more specialized version of it. Ron's affected by Fleur's looks just like Harry is by Cho's, Ron just shows his feelings more openly than Harry, all the time. >who has nothing against Fleur and is sorry if she gave that impression I don't think she has these powers, but I of course think it's possible, and she might display them later. She just doesn't strike me as a person which uses them to gain an unfair advantage - if she can control them at all, can decide when to turn them on or off. She's just arrived at Hogwarts and is obviously quite unhappy about everything, complaining all the time - is that the moment when she wants to get all the boys' attention? She wants to affect Ron at the dinner (like: 'I would give everything to get ze bouillabaise' ^_~), but not when she's leaving? Both rather unlikely. Time to get out my main argument: Look at what exactly Veela power make men behave - they want to impress. They tell lies and consider to do 'impressive', foolish, dangerous things like jumping out of the Top Box. We see none of Fleur's admirers do that, they are simply stunned, as teenage boys tend to be when confronted with a gorgeous girl. If those 'many' boys in the hall had started to behave like those HRH saw in the woods, of if Ron had challenged Cedric to a duel to impress Fleur instead of stammering an invitiation to the ball, I'd agree she has Veela power. But to weaken the force of the power as well as change it's nature would be stretching things a bit too far, I say. Also, she's a teenage girl that impresses other teenagers, but except for that photographer no older male seems to be as affected as strongly, though Veela power makes no difference there. More, if she had the power, shouldn't she have the drawbacks, too? The mascot Veelas' "faces were elongating into sharp, cruel-beaked bird heads, and long, scaly whings were bursting from their shoulders-" when "the Veela lost control" (GoF, The Quidditch World Cup). Fleur doesn't change when she's angry (Harry becoming champion) or loses control otherwise (Second Task). Finally, if she had the power and was aware of it, she would show some reaction when someone (like Harry) easily resists it. Torsten From rvotaw at i-55.com Sun Jan 26 14:47:21 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 08:47:21 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? References: Message-ID: <000601c2c549$d57c8ff0$29a1cdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 50668 Well, I could at any time randomly pick up any one of the four books, open it anyplace and probably find something I'd be giggling over and insisting was my favorite quote. My mom says everything's my favorite. But the first thing that came to mind was this, from PoA: Standing over them, with an expresion of the utmost fury on her face, was Professor McGonagall. "An unworthy trick!" she was shouting. "A low and cowardly attempt to sabotage the Gryffindor Seeker! Detention for all of you, and fifty points from Slytherin! I shall be speaking to Professor Dumbledore about this, make no mistake! Ah, here he comes now!" Gets me every time! Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 26 15:46:09 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 07:46:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron and the Trouble with Veela In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030126154609.55912.qmail@web20006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50669 --- Star Opal wrote: > Torsten > >No, no, no. Harry made a comment about Fleur using > her Veela powers on > >Cedric - but > >that was just Harry talking to comfort his friend. > There is NO indication > >at all in canon > >that Fleur has such powers! She is very beautiful, > that's it, nothing more. > > But then why make her part veela at all? Why not > just keep her a beautiful, > capable (she is a champion) witch with a French > accent? I'm not saying that > her having Veela abilities would detract from her at > all. > > "'An 'air from ze 'ead of a veela,' said Fleur. 'One > of my grandmuzzer's.' > So Fleur *was* part Veela, thought Harry..." GoF ch > 18 pg 308 > > Why point it out like that? Why, until we find out > her name and before that > she really is part veela, call her 'the girl who > looked like a veela' or > 'the veela girl' (just had a creepy Peanuts Red > Headed Girl moment ^_^ )? I have to go with her not using her veela powers at that (or with Ron at all). I think he veela-ness contributed to her charming the dragon. And I think it'll be of more import in the next book. But that's just me. Rebecca ps I'm still waiting for something odd about Trevor ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From sevothtarte at gmx.net Sun Jan 26 15:52:17 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 16:52:17 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron and the Trouble with Veela In-Reply-To: <20030126154609.55912.qmail@web20006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50670 Rebecca: >I think he veela-ness contributed to her charming the >dragon. Hmm, even if Veelas can charm non-humanoids (or non-humans, those Leprechauns didn't seem very enthralled), the dragon was a female, and they don't seem to be affected. That Fleur tried to charm it and has a wand probably suited best for charms just means she's good at charms. (Well, maybe she just tried it this way because Madame Maxime told her it's best) If Fleur has the powers, I'd like to see her use them on Dobby. *g* Talk about doing everything for your mistress. Torsten From renitentraven at hotmail.com Sun Jan 26 11:42:04 2003 From: renitentraven at hotmail.com (Lisa Armstrong ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 11:42:04 -0000 Subject: missing scenes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50671 Marina asked if anyone else had a wish list of missing scenes we'd like enlightened. Mine aren't entirely original I suspect; What Krum and Hermione talk about at the end of GOF when he asks, "Can I haff a word?" What Hermione says/does to Ron after Harry leaves Kings Cross station with the Dursleys at the end of GOF. When Hermione started offering up slang such as "Pop your clogs" (POA pg,85), she struck me as such a 'Queen's English' girl up to this point.(Is Ron's language having a bad influence?)It just sort of *happened*. I know these are GOF, but I'm betting on them being answered come July, so I'm thinking on them more often. Cheers, Lisa From mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com Sun Jan 26 12:04:02 2003 From: mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com (Edward Post) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 07:04:02 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50672 >From _Chamber of Secrets_ comes this very practical bit of advice: " . . . Haven't I taught you anything? . . . Never trust anything that can think for itself if you can't see where it keeps its brain . . ." Arthur Weasley OR Fred and George, however, found all this very funny. They went out of their way to march ahead of Harry down the corridors, shouting, "Make way for the Heir of Slytherin, seriously evil wizard coming through. . . "... He's nipping off to the Chamber of Secrets for a cup of tea with his fanged servant." _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com Sun Jan 26 12:53:45 2003 From: mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com (Edward Post) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 07:53:45 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Democracy and Prejudice in the WW ( with slight tinge of FF) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50673 > >Me >Yeah that would make sense. But as I said, the Wizards would make some laws >for their own protection too. > > >Michelle > The wizards do make some of their own laws. Wasn't Arthur Weasley the author of a law into which he put a loophole that allowed him to have the enchanted car? It's probably like the Administrative law of the US -- agencies are delegated authority to enact their own regulations (which don't quite have the same authority as statutes, which come from the legislature). It seems to me that the MoM is certainly part of the larger muggle government. Otherwise, the head of the wizard government would have a higher title, such as Grand Poobah. Ed _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From editor at texas.net Sun Jan 26 16:37:53 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 10:37:53 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Goblins (was: Gringotts Bank, Parsletounge, New Voldie) References: Message-ID: <004901c2c559$46ee9fc0$a705a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 50674 > Tzvi of Brooklyn: > >I think we are completely missing the point of this bank when discussing the > >matter. This establishment is owned and governed by goblins. They have no > >matters with the Ministry of Magic or anything of the like. They do what they > >want. To which Torsten (great name!) replied > I'm very curious as to which role the Goblins will play in VW II. They seem all to > likely to get into the heat of things (they apparently started rebellions every other > week), and they do have power. By themselves ("They're quite capable of dealing with > wizards,' said Hermione, sipping more of her Butterbeer. "They're very clever. They're > not like house-elves, who never stick up for themselves." - GoF, Rita Skeeter's Scoop) > and in terms of money, too. Wonder what Lucius Malfoy would say if Dumbledore got > the Gringotts Goblins to close all DE accounts. ^_~ > Serious, they won't do that, and from FBAWTFT it seems like Goblins enjoy playing > the jester role, mocking the rulers, but I don't think they'll stay out once the war gets > serious. What do you think? I think great minds think alike. I'm in a rush and not mentally capable of restating this, so I'll forward a Post from the Past to toss out my (actually, my husband Jan's) two cents on this. Message 25098, 8/29/01 (this had been in response to how irritating and useless Professor Binns was) I pontificate: I still think Binns is there to plant a giant red herring, akin to the "Snape wants the DADA job" rumor. In each and every book we are shown goblins, or goblins are referred to, and they are very much harmless and under control and in the background and no threat. We are being lulled, by their being the subject of such a dry and boring teacher, a class everyone blows off. BUT, the goblins were quite dangerous in the past, if you actually consider that these are rebellions and wars they're learning about. AND, goblins now control the only wizard bank we know of. I think the goblins have some major role to play. If Voldemort gets them on his side, easy enough to do, as they seem to have the amorality of the Swiss banks in the Nazi years (they did business with Sirius without the blink of an eye or the reporting of so much as a whisper to the MoM), and their prime motivation and a way to stir them up is money (they hounded Bagman). So Voldemort could have the entire economy of the wizarding world in his hand, causing chaos. I think, however, being Voldemort, he'll underestimate the goblins like Bagman did, like everyone in Binns' class or the wizard world does, and they'll turn on him, and be instrumental in his downfall. --Amanda, whose husband Jan actually thought of this some months ago To the best of my knowledge and YahooMort's search engine capability, this was the only post I made on this. There was a resounding silence in repsonse to this, probably because this sort of economic-related downfall is, well, boring. But I *still* think the goblins will be key. ~Amanda > > Torsten > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Is your message... > An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. > Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. > Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. > None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. > Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk > > Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > From mb2910 at hotmail.com Sun Jan 26 16:43:14 2003 From: mb2910 at hotmail.com (Meira B) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 18:43:14 +0200 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50675 >I did a search for "favorite line from the book" and got no results, so I >guess this has not been discussed before. I have read this list everyday, >and noticed that some very serious subjects are discussed, and I would like >to lighten it up just a bit for short time. > >My favorite line from the books is: > >"I like a healthy breeze around my privates, thanks." - GoF > >I can not get past this scene without laughing. > >What are your favorites? > >Jade Me: It's "slightly" more than one line, but I love this part: 'Professor Severus Snape, master of this school, commands you to yield the information you conceal!' Snape said, hitting the map with his wand. As though an invisible hand was writing upon it, words appeared on the smooth surface of the map. 'Mr Moony presents his compliments to Professor Snape, and begs him to keep his abnormally large nose out of other people's business.' Snape froze. Harry stared, dumbstruck, at the message. But the map didn't stop there. More writing was appearing beneath the first. 'Mr Prongs agrees with Mr Moony, and would like to add that Professor Snape is an ugly git.' It would have been very funny if the situation hadn't been so serious. And there was more... 'Mr Padfoot would like to register his astonishment that an idiot like that ever became a Professor.' Harry closed his eyes in horror. When he'd opened them, the map had had its last word. 'Mr Wormtail bids Professor Snape good day, and advises him to wash his hair, the slimeball.' Meira :) Dinks: "Dink, dink, dink, dink, dink, dink" ~Spaceballs, the movie~ _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From divaclv at aol.com Sun Jan 26 17:05:47 2003 From: divaclv at aol.com (c_voth312 ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 17:05:47 -0000 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50676 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aquariajade " wrote: > What are your favorites? Well, the ones listed thus far are all excellent, but the first one that leapt to my mind was from GoF--Dumbledore's response to Harry using some rather impolite terms to describe Rita Skeeter in his (Dumbledore's) hearing: "I went temporarily deaf and have no idea what you just said." ~Christi From jtdogberry at hotmail.com Sun Jan 26 17:28:02 2003 From: jtdogberry at hotmail.com (jtdogberry ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 17:28:02 -0000 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50677 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aquariajade " wrote: > I did a search for "favorite line from the book" and got no results, > so I guess this has not been discussed before. I have read this list > everyday, and noticed that some very serious subjects are discussed, > and I would like to lighten it up just a bit for short time. > Too many to chose from but since I'm a big Neville supporter, this is from GOF when the students are learning the banishing charm. "Neville's aim was so poor that he kept accidentally sending much heavier thing flying across the room - Professor Flitwick, for instance!" Dogberry From devika at sas.upenn.edu Sun Jan 26 17:49:12 2003 From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (devika261 ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 17:49:12 -0000 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50678 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jtdogberry " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aquariajade " > wrote: > > I did a search for "favorite line from the book" and got no > results, > > so I guess this has not been discussed before. I have read this > list > > everyday, and noticed that some very serious subjects are > discussed, > > and I would like to lighten it up just a bit for short time. > > PoA Ch. 19: "You should have realized," said Lupin quietly, "if Voldemort didn't kill you, we would. Good-bye, Peter." It always seemed to me that this line has more significance than it seems at first. That may or may not be true, but it still sends shivers up my spine every time I read it. --Devika From melclaros at yahoo.com Sun Jan 26 17:49:50 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 17:49:50 -0000 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50679 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "probonoprobono " wrote: > There are too many! But I defintely know that one of my favorite > scenes is in PoA: > > And also a favorite from PoA (this from Snape to Harry): "What would > your head have been doing in Hogsmeade, Potter? Your head is not > allowed in Hogsmeade. No part of your body has permission to be in > Hogsmeade." > > I can't help but snicker every time I read that. I hope these both > make it into the next film! I second that! They CAN'T cut Snape from PoA like they have from the 1st 2! (forbidded topic discussion ended) My favorite line is also Snape in PoA: "Give me a reason" he whispered. "Give me a reason to do it and I swear I will." the blood runs cold when I read that...the years of waiting to confront Black in just such a situation...the barely restrained power.... Melpomene From huntleyl at mssm.org Sun Jan 26 18:05:42 2003 From: huntleyl at mssm.org (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 13:05:42 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron in Cos (was Ron and the Trouble with Veela) References: <20030123180953.62761.qmail@web20009.mail.yahoo.com> <00d101c2c348$4e869660$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: <037f01c2c565$8ad6d8e0$3301a8c0@huntleyl> No: HPFGUIDX 50680 Sigh..I go away for a day or so and get hopelessly behind the times...anyway, this post made me think of something. > golden faile: > I was wondering, where in COS do we see evidence of > Ron having an interest > in Hermione? > > Rebecca: > I always felt that Rons taking up for Hermione when > Malfoy called her a > Mudblood in CoS was indicative of his true feelings > for her. > > Laila: > Could be... but let me ask you this. If someone > insults one of your best friends wouldn't you come > to their rescue? > > Rebecca: > But this wasn't just one incident. When Hermione was > petrified and Malfoy made the comment about wishing > she'd been killed and the bet the next one would be > (pg 267 paperback US ed) he said he was going to kill > Draco with his bare hands. And, although Harry is > probably upset, the text gives no indication of that. > And Ron kept trying to get loose from Harry and Dean > for a while. > > Harry didn't come to the rescue of one of his best > friends. Actually, I take that back; he came to the > rescue of Ron. Who knows what Snape would've done to > him. > > But Ron's action wasn't in defense of anyone. It > couldn't help Hermione. It was just an emotional > reaction. > > Taryn: > Because Ron is extremely temperamental, whereas Harry is /not/. Ron >has to be held back MULTIPLE times. But Harry is one who has lived a >lifetime of bottling up emotions and holding his temper. We don't see it >break nearly so much as Ron's. So, this brought to mind an instance when Harry's temper *did* break, in regards to an attack on Hermione. I am referring to, of course, the course of event that began with Draco's reflected curse hitting Hermione and Snape's reaction to it ("I see no difference."). Normally, when looking at this scene, I am so struck by the downright evilness of Snape, that I don't really focus on anything else...but, look at the way Harry reacts to it. "It was lucky, perhaps, that both Harry and Ron started shouting at Snape at the same time; lucky their voices echoed so much in the stone corridor, for in he confused din, it was impossible for him to hear exactly what they were calling him." For once, we have Harry's temper and general *sense* flying to pieces right along with Ron's (possibly because his characteristic slowness to anger has been stretched too far with the recent stress he's endured). And the text goes on... "Harry's ears were ringing. The injustice of it made him want to curse Snape into a thousand slimy pieces. He passed Snape, walked with Ron to the back of the dungeon, and slammed his bag down onto the table. Ron was shaking with anger too [...]" Again, behavior that is consistent with Ron's temperament, not Harry's. I am not citing this as support of Harry ----> Hermione (esp. as I don't believe that exists except in a *very* latent form right now), I am just pointing out that if Ron's emotional outbursts in defense of Hermione (when emotional outbursts are pretty much his general style anyway) are indicative of his crush on Hermione, then Harry's very atypical show of rage in this scene can certainly be similarly explained. I mean...his anger is almost *scary*. "Harry sat there staring at Snape as the lesson began, picturing horrific things happening to him....If only he knew how to do the Cruciatus Curse...he'd have Snape flat on his back like that spider, twitching and jerking." All I am going to say is: eep! "Harry imagined picking up his cauldron, and sprinting to the front of the class, and bringing it down on Snape's greasy head" I understand that this is a very emotional time for Harry in general (he is on the outs with Ron and most of the school), but still. This sort of rage from any character would be disturbing -- but from Harry, who isn't prone to such things -- it's damn near terrifying. I mean, the Cruciatus Curse. Really. Again, I'm not really trying to give an shipping argument here, just pointing that Ron isn't always the only one who goes mad when Hermione is insulted/injured. And, as they are both best friends with her, this is hardly surprising. Laura From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sun Jan 26 19:40:44 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 11:40:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: How did Snape see Lupin the night of the Prank? In-Reply-To: <037f01c2c565$8ad6d8e0$3301a8c0@huntleyl> Message-ID: <20030126194044.27925.qmail@web40509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50681 This is something I just can?t figure out. I spent a half-hour yesterday rereading the beginning of the Shrieking Shack scene and the part where Lupin explains the Prank to HHR, and I can?t understand this: How could have Snape seen Wolf!Lupin if he hadn't actually reached the Shrieking Shack the night of the Prank? So, how does the tunnel from the Whomping Willow end? I had always assumed that it ended *under* the Shack, and one could get into the Shack through a trapdoor in its floor. I got that notion from the next quote: ?Harry pulled himself out of the hole, staring around.? That actually makes sense if the passage is underground. The passage to Honeydukes, which also, I assume, was an underground one, ended with a trapdoor in the floor of the cellar. Slightly before that: ?And then the tunnel began to rise; moments later it twisted, and Crookshanks had gone. Instead, Harry could see a patch of dim light through a small opening.? This also doesn?t disprove the ?trapdoor? idea. But look at what Lupin says later on about the Prank: ?Well, of course, Snape tried it -- if he'd got as far as this house, he'd have met a fully grown werewolf -- but your father, who'd heard what Sirius had done, went after Snape and pulled him back, at great risk to his life... Snape glimpsed me, though, at the end of the tunnel.? It doesn?t make any sense! Why would Lupin be at the end of the tunnel as opposed to the house? Moreover, if Lupin *was* in the house, how could Snape see him if there was a trapdoor in the ceiling? Did Snape actually go *into* the Shrieking Shack? But then Lupin?s words ?if he?d got as far as this house? don?t make sense. Maybe the answer lies in the fact (?) that Lupin didn?t actually *remember* what happened that night, and he had the account of it from Snape, James, and Sirius? Then Snape would say that he saw Lupin, but James and Sirius would say that Snape didn?t really reach the house. Is this a flint, or am I imagining things? Puzzled!Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Mel_Asst_St at hotmail.com Sun Jan 26 16:37:47 2003 From: Mel_Asst_St at hotmail.com (Mel Wong) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 00:37:47 +0800 Subject: Wolfsbane Potion, Lycanthropy, and Real World Parallels. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50682 Greetings. I've had an idea pricking at the back of my head for the past couple days regarding Remus Lupin's lycanthropy- I read that JKR has indeed said: "Professor Lupin, who appears in the third book, is one of my favorite characters. He's a damaged person, literally and metaphorically. I think it's important for children to know that adults, too, have their problems, that they struggle. His being a werewolf is really a metaphor for people's reactions to illness and disability." That was quoted from "_Conversations with JK Rowling_", and it started me thinking quite in-depth on the character of Lupin and the nature of his lycanthropy. The way he's been shunned, being not only a dangerous beast during his transformations (and classified as one full-time in _Fantastic Beasts_), but a _contagious_ one. This quotation brought on uncalled-for parallels with the way Poppy Z. Brite has couched a characters' HIV positive status in her horror novel _Exquisite Corpse_, where a character says on a pirate radio station: "Every moment we stay alive is a moment we cheat the death a billion right-wing fundamentalists think we deserve. The world shrinks away from us in hatred, terror and disgust, as well it might - _we're plague victims, and we're contagious._" - Poppy Z. Brite, Exquisite Corpse, Phoenix Press edition page 196 Now- not intending to equate just HIV positive status itself with being a werewolf, but the paranoia about Lupin being one reminds me intensely of the first burst of real AIDS paranoia in the early days of the epidemic - I recall my mother warning me, before anyone knew better, about public toilet seats. Even now it feels like ignorance lingers, as we have with individuals who refer to AIDS as the "gay plague". Parallel that with the reflexive disgust that Lupin is faced with when he reveals he's a werewolf. "Dumbledore hired you when he knew you were a werewolf?" Ron gasped. "Is he mad?" "Some of the staff thought so," said Lupin. "He had to work very hard to convince certain teachers that I'm trustworthy-" - JK Rowling, Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, Bloomsbury edition page 254 The hatred that Lupin seems to have to deal with seems to me, to parallel someone chronically ill, or insane, having to deal with the Real World, as JKR pretty much stated. The discrimination that wizards direct at him seems very strong- Ron immediately thinks of the worst, regarding a werewolf, despite the werewolf being a favorite teacher. So where does Wolfsbane Potion come into this? "I was a very small boy when I received the bite. My parents tried everything, but in those days there was no cure. The Potion that Professor Snape has been making for me is a very recent discovery. It makes me safe, you see." - JK Rowling, Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, Bloomsbury edition page 258 It appears that Wolfsbane Potion improves Remus Lupin's quality of life. That much is apparent, because it spares him the terror of dealing with losing his mind during the full moon. He has stated: "My transformations in those days were - were terrible. It is very painful to turn into a werewolf. I was separated from humans to bite, so I bit and scratched myself instead." - JK Rowling, Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, Bloomsbury edition page 259 It has, for all intents and purposes, reduced the threat to himself (from self-harm while a werewolf), as well as the harm to others (curls up in his office a harmless wolf). Moreover, it has given him peace of mind- he has not to fear the full moon as much because he will possess his own mind despite his body's forced changes, instead of being a mindless beast. Compare that to the relatively recent advent of antiretroviral combination therapy for HIV positive individuals. In the novel I referenced, _Exquisite Corpse_, it was set before then, and Lucas Ransom, the HIV positive pirate DJ, has an internal monologue from which I draw this: "And what was there to stay sane for now? A trip to the clinic once a month, his pentamadine inhaler and his egg lipids..." - Poppy Z. Brite, Exquisite Corpse, Phoenix Press edition page 78 It strikes me that despite the quality of life improvement between Lupin's former situation and now, with Wolfsbane Potion, that the social discrimination he faces has not changed. The wizarding world, no doubt, strikes me as somewhat socially stagnant. Little to no affirmative action on the part of werewolves, or in Hermione's case, house-elves. Where am I going with this? It feels strongly to me that now, most of the social reasons for loathing a werewolf such as Remus Lupin have been dispelled by the advent of Wolfsbane Potion. So why fear him? "Don't ask me to fathom how a werewolf's mind works." hissed Snape. "Get out of the way, Potter." - JK Rowling, Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, Bloomsbury edition page 265 The simple reason being- social affirmative action doesn't seem to have much of a place in the wizarding world. View Hermione's efforts to get the house-elves benefits, and the reactions from Ron. While in the Real World, activism seems quite a going concern, I don't see very much of that in the wizarding world, and if Lupin (and others') plights are to be improved, that is now the area where things need to be changed. Thank you for your time- the useful stuff ends here, in any case. I'm Mel, and this is my first post to this list. I've been lurking the past day, and I've decided to come out and throw this topic out to the folk here after one day of rumination on it. I'm in my 20s, a freelance artist/writer, and I live in Asia. I've been a HP fan since 1999 but not been actively fandom-involved until recently. I got further exposure from John's online journal (http://www.livejournal.com/users/queerasjohn/), and I was bitten by the fandom bug, so to speak. I'm unabashedly a Lupin (and Sirius Black) fan, and while I prefer not to speak on ships, I do think that SB/RL are a cute slash pairing. I also like to think on the past that JKR hasn't detailed yet, and who they are besides who we read about in the books. I'm also, oddly amused by the mental image of a 20something Remus Lupin being a Smiths fan, but that's off-topic now, and I think I'll sign off to listen to further discussion. -Mel ~you had to piss on our parade you had to shred our big day you had to ruin it for all concerned like a drunken punchup at a wedding.~ -Radiohead, Punch Up At A Wedding _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 26 18:21:14 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 18:21:14 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Democracy and prejudice References: <1043525055.2574.62992.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000801c2c567$b95d5480$5f4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 50683 Ebony wrote: > Rather, I've always seen the Ministry as a "hidden" branch of the > UK's Muggle government that has an unusual degree of autonomy, but > that *someone* in the Muggle government secretly knows about them. I > can't remember if I've got canon evidence for this, or if it's just a > gut feeling, but I think that wizards and witches are still subjects > of the Queen. *Especially* since there doesn't seem to be a > completely parallel wizarding world that is autonomous, but just ind. > separate institutions. I'm not sure that this theory is tenable. I know that we're not supposed to talk about muggle politics here, but I can't really see a muggle government running the MoM, especially in the Lady (Voldemor)tina years! Most of the functions would have been privatised (probably to that nice Mr Riddle and De Atheaters plc) and what was left merged with the Ministries of Defence, Nasty Secrets and Gunboat Diplomacy. As I've posted elsewhere, I don't think that the MoM would comprehend or understand the concept of a Prime Minister who was elected. They would have gone for what they knew - the bureaucracy, and formed a link there. I suspect that the link is a person in one of the central Whitehall departments, probably the Cabinet Office, who is supposedly on secondment from one of the other departments (no one ever thinks about exactly which one...), does the job efficiently and unobtrusively, passes on any information which the MoM needs to know about (eg if someone is thinking about running a motorway through the middle of Diagon Alley) and is also available if the MoM feels it appropriate to pass anything to the muggle government. Parliaments come and go, the bureaucracy doesn't. > And now that we know there's a wizarding equivalent to the UN, the > International Confederation, I wish to point out that it is very > likely that wizarding governance varies greatly from country to > country. In the AU I created for my fanfiction, the Americans have a And here is another problem with having the MoM as part of the muggle government - the fact that we know that the map of Wizard Europe is different from the map of muggle Europe - Flanders, Sardinia, and Transylvania are all mentioned in the books even though they aren't independent Muggle states. So there's no straightforward match between them. > thought the British would be. I have no idea what JKR has in mind, > but I am assured from her writing that she realizes the world is a > very diverse place, and that wizarding traditions differ from culture > to culture. She certainly does well by avoiding any sort of stance on the Wizard equivalent of "Britain" and I think quite rightly. But also she allows the implications for world history which flow from the existence of wizardry. I think that the defining moment for wizards happened when they realised that they had more in common with each other than with their muggle neighbours, and that that happened a very long time ago. So that they would not have been caught up in the mass displacements of population which have come about in muggle history, simply because they could and would have chosen to elude extermination, enslavement, ethnic cleansing, etc. Wizard West Africa was not denuded of population by the slave trade. Wizard India was not ruled by the Empire. And so on. > the modern concept of race and racism (I know this is hard to > believe, but bear with me) is a construct that came into play well > after the 1600s schism between the wizarding and Muggle worlds. In I think that the true schism came much earlier than this, the 17th century was just the time that it was formalised. > fact, you can see it in the British canon--only look at the > Romantics' view of the racialized other and compare it to the > Victorians. As recently as the 1700s, Africa, the unexplored > stretches of the Americas, the Near and the Far East were seen as > mystical and wonderful... but by the late 1800s, writers like Conrad, > Kipling, Rider Haggard, Henty, etc. portrayed non-European places as > strange or the heart of hell. ("The horror, the horror!") And > the "savage" (read: racialized Other) went from being noble and > fascinating to utterly demonic. Whereas in WW, there does not seem to be any concept of a "3rd World", of the legacy of Empire, or of any sort of racial dimension. Or indeed any sort of religious one either. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 26 18:54:50 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 18:54:50 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizards/Muggles References: <1043543995.4750.26306.m7@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002401c2c56c$67f8e5a0$5f4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 50684 Kristen wrote: > > One further piece of speculation though. If wizards and muggles form > > relationships, how do they meet? Most wizards seem to live in a > > We just sort of discussed this on another thread (don't worry, I > didn't expect you to have read it :). The question there being how > come the wizards didn't know how to dress like muggles at the World > Cup if they live mostly intermingled. Steve's answer was that > wizards live in their own little enclaves. They live in the muggle I did indeed read this thread and although I'm not convinced that Steve's theory about a Magic Space is necessary, I don't think that weakens what he argues about Wizardtown - the ease of travel from place to place means that physical contiguity isn't really a problem. > to survive in the muggle world. To answer your question, I would > guess that those that live in partial-muggle households are more > likely to intermingle. Families with squibs may also intermingle > more as they may have a member that associates with muggles (e.g. the > Weasly accountant - though granted they don't mix much with him). Possibly so (though the thought of Wizardtown wizards and muggle relatives mixing socially reminds me of the wedding episode in "Buffy"!) I would think that wizards might think of squibs in the same way that muggles would think of someone who was physically disabled - although they are impaired in that they can't do magic, there would be no reason why they couldn't live a fulfilling life in the WW. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From gwendolyn24 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 26 20:07:17 2003 From: gwendolyn24 at yahoo.com (Gwendolyn ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 20:07:17 -0000 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50685 and for my introduction into the forums. I'll go with one of my favs. "An excellent point," said Professor Dumbledore. "My own brother Aberforth was prosecuted for practicing inappropriate charms on a goat. It was all over the papers, but did Aberforth hide? No, he did not! He held his head high and went about his business as usual! Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been bravery..." The page in GoF has stains on it because I spit out chocolate milk when I read that. That whole scene was prefect. And of course probably most peoples.... "Remember if the time should come when you have to make a choice between what is right and what is easy, remember what happened to a boy who was good, and kind, and brave, because he strayed across the path of Lord Voldemort." Cause even before J.K. said anything you knew that was some classic foreshadowing. GoF I just reread so no offense to the other books. ;) Gwen From cantor at vgernet.net Sun Jan 26 17:29:21 2003 From: cantor at vgernet.net (cantoramy ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 17:29:21 -0000 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50686 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aquariajade " wrote: > I did a search for "favorite line from the book" and got no results, > so I guess this has not been discussed before. I have read this list > everyday, and noticed that some very serious subjects are discussed, > and I would like to lighten it up just a bit for short time. > > My favorite line from the books is: > > "I like a healthy breeze around my privates, thanks." - GoF > > I can not get past this scene without laughing. > > What are your favorites? > > Jade That is one of my favorites too. I also like this from GoF: (Hermione and Harry are in the library when Krum enters.) "He's not even good-looking!" she muttered angrily, glaring at Krum's sharp profile. "They only like him because he's famous! They wouldn't look twice at him if he couldn't do that Wonky Faint thing --" reminds me of that time I was talking about music with my daughter and I referred to the group "Blowie and the Hootfish".... cantoramy From potter76 at libero.it Sun Jan 26 20:25:13 2003 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 21:25:13 +0100 (ora solare Europa occ.) Subject: [HPforGrownups] How did Snape see Lupin the night of the Prank? References: <20030126194044.27925.qmail@web40509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3E344428.000003.40209@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 50687 Puzzled!Maria: So, how does the tunnel from the Whomping Willow end? I had always assumed that it ended *under* the Shack, and one could get into the Shack through a trapdoor in its floor. I got that notion from the next quote: ?Harry pulled himself out of the hole, staring around.? That actually makes sense if the passage is underground. The passage to Honeydukes, which also, I assume, was an underground one, ended with a trapdoor in the floor of the cellar. Me: Well, Maria I don't think you have much to be puzzled about, your reading might be correct and supported by the canon available without any inconsistencies. I guess I read it just as you do, the passage is underground just like the one to Honeydukes; as you say if there is a trapdoor at the end of this one too, Snape would have not been able to get a glimpse of Werewolf!Remus but it's you who provide proof that there''s a little difference with that other passage: "Instead, Harry could see a patch of dim light through a small opening.? Meaning that the end of the tunnell is not bloked by a door of any kind, it s just a hole in the floor trhough which Harry has to pull himself out ( but I wonder if one would use the same words in case the hole was not in the on the floor but in a wall). In this way Snape could have seen Lupin walking in the room above him ( so his saying "at the end of the tunnell" is correct because the hole *is* the end of the tunnell and if he was close to it he *was* at the end of the passage) if he was quite close to this opening. So, Snape didn't get "as far as this house? , it's from the passage that he got a glimpse of Lupin. Now the only thing that doesn't make sense is why that hole is not bloked in some way! Wouldn't Werewolf!Remus be able to get out of the Shack? Weren t all doors and windows boarded up for this reason, to prevent him from going about and harming people? Did they just assume that it was not necessary because the Whomping Willow would take care of that? This is the only sensible reason I can think of, Dumbledore didn't think necessary to have a door at the end of the passage because the WW would prevent W!R to get out while 'guarding' the entrance to the tunnell from overcuriuos students. Did my ramblings help? R [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From susannahlm at yahoo.com Sun Jan 26 20:37:11 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 20:37:11 -0000 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the books? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50688 Jade wrote: >I did a search for "favorite line from the book" and got no results, >so I guess this has not been discussed before. I have read this list >everyday, and noticed that some very serious subjects are discussed, >and I would like to lighten it up just a bit for short time. >My favorite line from the books is: >"I like a healthy breeze around my privates, thanks." - GoF >I can not get past this scene without laughing. >What are your favorites? Oh, *crud!* How in the world could anyone ever *pick?* That said. . . "Mr. Weasley was looking around. He loved everything to do with Muggles. Harry could see him itching to go and examine the television and the video recorder. 'They run off eckeltricity, do they?' he said knowledgeably. 'Ah yes, I can see the plugs. I collect plugs,' he added to Uncle Vernon. 'And batteries. Got a very large collection of batteries. My wife thinks I'm mad, but there you are.' Uncle Vernon clearly thought Mr. Weasley was mad too." (GOF, Chap. 4) Also--these are all GOF-- "Harry wanted very much to ask whether Mr. Crouch had stopped calling Percy 'Weatherby' yet, but resisted the temptation." (GOF, Chap. 23. By the way, in a rather serious footnote: Elkins, do you think that Mr. Crouch's inability to recognize other people's identities has anything to do with his cronic inability to remember his assistant's *name?*) And finally, don't ask me why: "Snape had his wand out and was blasting rosebushes apart, his expression most ill-natured." (GOF, also Chap. 23.) That line gets me every time. I think it's just that "his expression most ill-natured." I just. . . *love* this line. Derannimer (who *adored* that crazy Crouch post, and actually printed the whole thing up. It ran to over 135 pages, in case you were wondering.) From kewiromeo at aol.com Sun Jan 26 20:53:20 2003 From: kewiromeo at aol.com (kewiromeo at aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 15:53:20 EST Subject: Veela Message-ID: <18e.157952b1.2b65a4c0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50689 There are female veela. Is that to say that there are no male veela and that they mate with eachother and only produce more female (toadlike), or do they have to intermarry in order to reproduce...then why aren't all of them halfbreeds. Perhaps they have an extremely long lifespan. Fleur's grandmother might still look as young has Fleur does. They are immortalish. If not, male veela? Women of this list, ... single file. I will have them for you shortly. Hermoine and a male veela? sounds fun doesnt it? It's not only men that gawk at beautiful women as they pass. Women do it also. Don't lie to me. We all know you do. DISCUSS! Tzvi of Brooklyn -of the Woodbourne Wizard Institution [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Sun Jan 26 21:24:03 2003 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 13:24:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cho, Favorite lines Message-ID: <20030126212403.1638.qmail@web40308.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50690 Petra, about my early "Cho" posts: <<>> Me: OUCH! I guess I deserved that, Petra! But I also admitted as such in my last post, explaining my "inner teen" reasoning. Lesson #78 from this thread: NEVER type something that you don't want people to read months/years from now. It WILL come back to bite you in the bum! Too many favorite lines to list here, but here is one of them... ------------------------------------------------- "Now, Harry," said Lockhart. "When Draco points his wand at you, you do *this*." He raised his own wand, attempted a complicated sort of wiggling action, and dropped it. Snape smirked as Lockhart quickly picked it up, saying, "Whoops -- my wand is a little bit overexcited -- " ---------------------------------------------- ~Lilac~ ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Professor, can you show me that blocking thing again?" Lockhart cuffed Harry merrily on the shoulder. "Just do what I did, Harry!" "What, drop my wand?" --Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 26 21:27:01 2003 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82 ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 21:27:01 -0000 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50691 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aquariajade " wrote: > My favorite line from the books is: > > "I like a healthy breeze around my privates, thanks." - GoF > > I can not get past this scene without laughing. > > What are your favorites? Easy!: "Lavender Brown - ' Oh Profeesor, look! I think I've got an unaspected planet! Oooh which one's that, Professor?' 'It is Uranus, my dear,' said Professor Trelawney, peering down at the chart. 'Can I have a look at Uranus, too, Lavender?' said Ron." (GOF) I can't help but smile at this, childish yes, but all the memories of the number of times you used to hear that old chestnut at school! I also like it when Harry says something along the lines of "I didn't know it had to be so wet" about his uniform to Petunia in PS. Michelle From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sun Jan 26 21:43:41 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 16:43:41 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50692 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aquariajade " wrote: > My favorite line from the books is: > > "I like a healthy breeze around my privates, thanks." - GoF > > I can not get past this scene without laughing. > > What are your favorites? Snape's sallow skin had gone the color of sour milk. "And did the Headmaster tell you the circumstances in which your father saved my life?" he whispered. "Or did he consider the details too unpleasant for precious Potter's delicate ears?" Harry bit his lip. He didn't know what had happened and didn't want to admit it - but Snape seemed to have guessed the truth. "I would hate for you to run away with a false idea of your father, Potter," he said, a terrible grin twisting his face. "Have you been imagining some act of glorious heroism? Then let me correct you - your saintly father and his friends played a highly amusing joke on me that would have resulted in my death if your father hadn't got cold feet at the last moment. There was nothing brave about what he did. He was saving his own skin as much as mine. Had their joke succeeded, he would have been expelled from Hogwarts." (PoA, 285 - US) Ah! Snape at his best: wicked and cruel! *sigh* I love him! Can you even imagine how excited Snape must have been to finally be able to tell Harry that? ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jan 26 21:50:40 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 21:50:40 -0000 Subject: Veela In-Reply-To: <18e.157952b1.2b65a4c0@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50693 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, kewiromeo at a... wrote: > There are female veela. Is that to say that there are no male veela > and that they mate with eachother and only produce more female In the Muggle RL, veelas come from the Slavic world (with various names and a Greek influence, so they are nereids in Greece and rusalki in Bulgaria), where they are believed to begin as the spirts of women/girls who die young and unmarried/childless. They fly by turning into swans by wearing a swan skin. A man who finds veelas dancing or swimming in their human form can capture one as his wife by stealing her swan skin. She will be beautiful and fertile, do the housework well and raise the children, but if she EVER gets a chance, she will grab her swan skin and fly away and her husband and children will never see her again. In the Potterverse, veela probably do not start as the ghosts of Muggle girls. They may grow on trees, which could mean only female veela. They may be a veela species, of which the males might be lovely boy-toys as you, Tzvi, suggested, or the males might be as magically ugly as the females are beautiful. While the females live in lakes, streams, and forest (RL), the hypothetical ugly males might live underground, perhaps like kobolds, and come up to the surface only for annual May Day orgies with the females. It is also possible that veela are really witches from a population so in-bred that 1) they all look much the same, 2) they all have two unusual genetic female-sex-linked conditions, one of which is an automatic Imperius with the command "Desire me" at all post-pubescent human males in the vicinity, and the other is an Animagus-like transformation into some kind of giant vulture/eagle. From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Sun Jan 26 21:56:16 2003 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 21:56:16 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50694 "The truth is a beautiful and terrible thing and should be treated with extreme caution" - Albus Dumbledore, (PS, Last Chapter) Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at texas.net Sun Jan 26 21:56:30 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 21:56:30 -0000 Subject: L.O.O.N. memo--membership denied In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50695 MEMORANDUM TO: Anal P. Lardbottom, President, L.O.O.N. CC: Joywitch M. Curmudgeon, Member Services & Culinary Adviser RE: Application for certification by a Mr. Sajid Please be advised that I have reviewed Mr. Sajid's application for L.O.O.N. membership, dated January 24, 2003, and recommend it be declined. Mr. Sajid has only engaged in routine list discussions. He has not unearthed any Flints, shed light on any mysteries, or corrected minutiae. I need not remind you that anal-to-the-point-of-insanity adherence to details, to the point of driving home from work to find chapter and verse in order to clarify or answer an argument, is a requirement for L.O.O.N. certification. Further, L.O.O.N. certification has traditionally been bestowed by peer acclamation, anyway, rather than direct application. I recommend that we put Mr. Sajid on a watch list, and if he exhibits the requisite fanatic devotion to detail, his application can be revisited. Sincerely, Amandageist A Founding L.O.O.N., Past President, Membership Validation Officer P.S.--Also strongly recommend we investigate, locate, and shut down the source of unauthorized or otherwise fraudulent L.O.O.N. badges being marketed as authentic. Suspect Wizard Wheezes. From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sun Jan 26 22:00:00 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 17:00:00 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: missing scenes Message-ID: <1ba.d1428c2.2b65b460@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50696 In a message dated 1/26/03 11:08:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, renitentraven at hotmail.com writes: > When Hermione started offering up slang such as "Pop your clogs" > (POA pg,85), she struck me as such a 'Queen's English' girl up to > this point.(Is Ron's language having a bad influence?)It just sort of > *happened*. Um...what? I don't think any of my books (US paperback) have Hermione using any slang like that. What does it mean? Um...if anyone can tell me, please e-mail me off-list. Oh! A good scene would've been Ginny catching Percy and Penelope together! ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From karenwickersham at ameritech.net Sun Jan 26 21:30:40 2003 From: karenwickersham at ameritech.net (karywick ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 21:30:40 -0000 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50697 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Torsten wrote: > Jade: > >I did a search for "favorite line from the book" and got no results, > >so I guess this has not been discussed before. I have read this list > >everyday, and noticed that some very serious subjects are discussed, > >and I would like to lighten it up just a bit for short time. > I'm new here and have been lurking for a little bit so hi. My favorite lines are actually a little scene but its the part in PoA starting with "Tripe Sybil" where they are eating Christmas dinner and Dumbledore announces that Lupin is ill. "But certainly you already knew that, Sibyll?" said Professor McGonagall, her eyebroys raised... . "Certainly I knew, Minerva,"she said quietly. "But one does not parade the fact that one is All-Knowing. I frequently act as though I am not possessed of the Inner Eye, so as not to make others nervous." "That explains a great deal," said Professor McGonagall tartly. I laugh and laugh at these lines. Kary From karenwickersham at ameritech.net Sun Jan 26 22:39:17 2003 From: karenwickersham at ameritech.net (karywick ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 22:39:17 -0000 Subject: Dursley's bribed?, charmed? or afraid? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50698 I looked in the archives to find discussion on this but could not find any. Maybe its just too old for my computer to find. If so just please settle this argument between me and my husband. The question is why after all the horrible things that have happened at the Dursley's house like Dudley's pig tail in PS/SS, the cake dropped in CoS, Aunt Marge being blown up in PoA, and Dudley's four foot tongue GoA, do the Dursleys keep letting Harry come back each summer? We know that canon says that Dumbledore wants him at the Dursley's because he is safe there but the Dursleys must have some say in the matter. I seem to think that they are really afraid of the power that the wizarding world has. Its obvious that they haven't been charmed because Dudley remembers his tail.(in GoF p 40HC)" It wasn't altogether surprising, therefore, that Dudley kept running his hand nervously over his backside, and walking sideways from room to room, so as not to present the same target to the enemy." The whole family is visibly nervous when the Weasleys come to get Harry for the World Cup. GoF also show that Harry is able to bargain with Uncle Vernon by threatening to write his godfather, Sirius. I believe that somehow the Dursley's know that Dumbledore can offer them protection and the price of that protection is to care for Harry in the summers and up until he was eleven. For all the protest of the hatred of wizarding ways I would not be surprized to find that they know or realize a little more of what was going on when Voldemort was in power than we now are led to believe. I'm not sure I'm going with these arguments that either of them or Dudley are wizards or squibs but I think that Petunia might have known what was going on with Lily. I can't believe that as soon as Lily became a witch that all of her relatives shunned her like Petunia and that Petunia shunned all of her relatives. She might have been very aware of what was happening even though she did not get along with her sister. The fact that her sister was killed in Petunia's mind for being a witch has just solidified her hatred in the past decade or so. That doesn't mean that she didn't hear about Muggle torturing or hadn't been warned by Lily about Voldemort and wasn't afraid and feel that they might need the protection of Dumbledore and his cohorts. She might deny her realtionship with Lily in an attempt to protect her family and seperate herself from the Potters. My husband seems to think that they are getting paid money by the MoM. He points to the new "company car" on pg 3 (Hardcover American ed) of PoA. "While Uncle Vernon, Aunt Petunia, and Dundley had gone out in the front garden to admire Uncle Vernon's new company car ( in very loud voices, so that the rest of the street would notice it too). . ." as proof that they are being paid. His rationale is that since he owns his own company it seems a little strange to get a company car, especially on the day Harry returns home. My husband also feels that the Dursley's are shallow enough to take a child into their home for money only. Does anyone else have any feelings on this topic? "Karen" From bonnie at niche-associates.com Sun Jan 26 23:11:13 2003 From: bonnie at niche-associates.com (lairy_fights2002 ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 23:11:13 -0000 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50699 Harry would have pointed out that trouble didn't come much worse than having slugs pouring out of your mouth, but he couldn't; Hagrid's treacle fudge had cemented his jaws together. "Clear off," Ron snapped at them, waving the fist holding Pigwidgeon, who hooted more happily than ever as he soared through the air. "Maybe he's ill!" said Ron hopefully. "Maybe he's *left*," said Harry, "because he missed out on the Defense Against Dark Arts job *again*!" "Or he might have been *sacked*!" said Ron enthusiastically. "I mean, everyone hates him--" "Or maybe," said a very cold voice right behind them, "he's waiting to hear why you two didn't arrive on the school train." From draco382 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 26 23:14:53 2003 From: draco382 at yahoo.com (draco382 ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 23:14:53 -0000 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50700 How to pick!?!? Well, here's a scene that came to mind: Valentine's Day in CoS: pg 176-177 "[Lockhart]'Why not ask Professor Snape to show you how to whip up a Love Potion! And while you're at it, Professor Flitwick knows more about Entrancing Enchantments than any wizard I've ever met, the sly old dog!' Professor Flitwick buried his face in his hands. Snape was looking as though the first person to ask him for a Love Potion would be force-fed poison." Recently, I visited the local mall and was attacked by a barrage of lurid pink and red hearts and roses hanging from the ceiling -- decorations for Valentine's Day to get shoppers "in the mood." I could relate to Snape in his morose black robes grinding his teeth next to over-enthusiastic Lockhart!! I had to laugh!! ~draco382 From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Sun Jan 26 23:17:52 2003 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 23:17:52 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50701 Is that the one from COS? Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: lairy_fights2002 To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 11:11 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? Harry would have pointed out that trouble didn't come much worse than having slugs pouring out of your mouth, but he couldn't; Hagrid's treacle fudge had cemented his jaws together. "Clear off," Ron snapped at them, waving the fist holding Pigwidgeon, who hooted more happily than ever as he soared through the air. "Maybe he's ill!" said Ron hopefully. "Maybe he's *left*," said Harry, "because he missed out on the Defense Against Dark Arts job *again*!" "Or he might have been *sacked*!" said Ron enthusiastically. "I mean, everyone hates him--" "Or maybe," said a very cold voice right behind them, "he's waiting to hear why you two didn't arrive on the school train." Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Sun Jan 26 23:20:53 2003 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 23:20:53 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dursley's bribed?, charmed? or afraid? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50702 I like the bribed bit, but did not JKR say that they had a suprise coming in OOP? Perhaps Vernon will be told that its harry who decides if they get the money or not, heh heh. Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sun Jan 26 23:39:18 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 18:39:18 EST Subject: Love Potions in our future? Message-ID: <1e5.5d4c7e.2b65cba6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50703 In a message dated 1/26/03 6:15:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, draco382 at yahoo.com writes: > Snape was looking > as though the first person to ask him for a Love Potion would be > force-fed poison." That's another scene that would've been great in a book. Could you imagine if some poor student was so love-struck that he asked Snape how to make a love potion? Can you imagine what our Potions Master would do? On another note, we've been introduced to love potions a few times in the series. The aforementioned V-day disaster being one. I can't remember in which book (more importantly, I can't find it) but Mrs. Wealsey was telling Ginny and Hermione about a love potion she made as a girl. Also, in GoF: "She's really ugly," says Pansy Parkinson, a pretty and vivacious fourth-year student, "but she'd be well up to making a Love Potion, she's quite brainy. I think that's how she's doing it." Love Potions are, of course, banend at Hogwarts, and no doubt Albus Dumbledore will want to investigate these claims. Harry Potter's well-wishers must hope that, next time, he bestows his heart on a worthier candidate. (GoF, 512 US hardback). We have been introduced at least three times to Love Potions. Could that perhaps be a tactic in Voldemort's new war? Use Love Potions and Veela and simliar things to enchant the good guys? Heaven knows that would give them a great advantage.....Any thoughts? ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Audra1976 at aol.com Mon Jan 27 00:00:49 2003 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 19:00:49 EST Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? Message-ID: <11.83d717a.2b65d0b1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50704 Off the top of my head, so I'm sorry if they're not exact wording: "What would your head have been doing in Hogsmeade, Potter? Your head is not allowed in Hogsmeade. No part of your body has permission to be in Hogsmeade." --Snape "Shall we kill him together?" "Yes, I think so." --Black and Lupin "I'm dying! Look at me, it's killed me!" --Draco "I'm worth twelve of you, Malfoy." --Neville "Yeah, we'll call you...if we ever need someone mental!" --Ron "Twitchy little ferret, aren't you Malfoy?" --Hermione "Oh shut up, Weatherby." --Fred or George Audra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From megalynn44 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 27 00:34:12 2003 From: megalynn44 at hotmail.com (Megalynn S.) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 19:34:12 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50705 Oh my gosh there are so many but two immediately stuck out in my mind. The first, well I know I am not gonna get it just right because I don't have the book handy, but in POA right after Griffinder has won the cup there's a line like; "Percy was jumping up and down like a mad man, all dignity lost" I just love that image of Percy. The other is from COS when Ron and Harry have turned into Crabbe and Goyle. Malfoy says to them; "Honestly, if you too were any slower you'ld be going backwards." Megalynn _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 00:52:43 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 16:52:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] How did Snape see Lupin the night of the Prank? In-Reply-To: <3E344428.000003.40209@i3a2c5> Message-ID: <20030127005243.91131.qmail@web40507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50706 Puzzled!Maria: So, how does the tunnel from the Whomping Willow end? I had always assumed that it ended *under* the Shack, and one could get into the Shack through a trapdoor in its floor. I got that notion from the next quote: ?Harry pulled himself out of the hole, staring around.? That actually makes sense if the passage is underground. The passage to Honeydukes, which also, I assume, was an underground one, ended with a trapdoor in the floor of the cellar. Rita: Well, Maria I don't think you have much to be puzzled about, your reading might be correct and supported by the canon available without any inconsistencies. I guess I read it just as you do, the passage is underground just like the one to Honeydukes; as you say if there is a trapdoor at the end of this one too, Snape would have not been able to get a glimpse of Werewolf!Remus but it's you who provide proof that there''s a little difference with that other passage: "Instead, Harry could see a patch of dim light through a small opening.? Meaning that the end of the tunnell is not bloked by a door of any kind, it s just a hole in the floor trhough which Harry has to pull himself out ( but I wonder if one would use the same words in case the hole was not in the on the floor but in a wall). In this way Snape could have seen Lupin walking in the room above him ( so his saying "at the end of the tunnell" is correct because the hole *is* the end of the tunnell and if he was close to it he *was* at the end of the passage) if he was quite close to this opening. So, Snape didn't get "as far as this house? , it's from the passage that he got a glimpse of Lupin. Now the only thing that doesn't make sense is why that hole is not bloked in some way! Wouldn't Werewolf!Remus be able to get out of the Shack? Weren t all doors and windows boarded up for this reason, to prevent him from going about and harming people? Did they just assume that it was not necessary because the Whomping Willow would take care of that? This is the only sensible reason I can think of, Dumbledore didn't think necessary to have a door at the end of the passage because the WW would prevent W!R to get out while 'guarding' the entrance to the tunnell from overcuriuos students. Did my ramblings help? Me (Maria): Thanks, they helped a lot (and they weren't ramblings, either ). That does seem to be a good explanation - that the entrance to the Shack was not blocked by an actual door. But I seem to have more of my ramblings on the topic. I really don't see a good reason *not* to install a door. Wouldn't it be rather dangerous for Wolf!Lupin to run around in the passage instead of the house? Besides, why have the house if you can just keep the wolf in the passage? Ooh, what if there *is* a door, but that particular night (not the Prank, but in PoA) it was open - Padfoot!Sirius probably wouldn't have closed the trapdoor when he was dragging Ron in there - whatever for? And no time wasted. Or, maybe the hole is too small for a werewolf? No, doesn't work. If Padfoot, a huge dog ("bearlike") was able to get through - and he obviously is at least as big as the werewolf, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to keep him in check - then Lupin would definitely be able to get through the trapdoor. So, do we stick to the idea that no one saw any need to install a door, and Snape saw Lupin through the open hole, pacing in the room above? Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Mon Jan 27 01:20:03 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 01:20:03 -0000 Subject: How did Snape see Lupin the night of the Prank? In-Reply-To: <20030127005243.91131.qmail@web40507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50707 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Maria Kirilenko wrote: << So, do we stick to the idea that no one saw any need to install a door, and Snape saw Lupin through the open hole, pacing in the room above? >> I've always imagined that there was a thick-ish wooden door blocking the trapdoor but Werewolf!Lupin, driven mad by the scent of human, scratched and bit at it, and clawed enough of an opening for Snape to glimpse a silhouette of wolf snout, and put two and two together. From megalynn44 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 27 01:29:12 2003 From: megalynn44 at hotmail.com (Megalynn S.) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 20:29:12 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Electricity and Wizard's Kitchens. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50708 My one question about the wizarding world and electricity is if wizards REALLY don't use it (as suggested by Arthers mispronunciation etc.) why is it called the Wizard's WIRELESS Network? Wireless? They don't use wires so of course it's wireless. Why worth mentioning? Megalynn _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Mon Jan 27 01:34:57 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 20:34:57 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Electricity and Wizard's Kitchens. Message-ID: <9f.32c8fbc6.2b65e6c1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50709 In a message dated 1/26/03 8:29:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, megalynn44 at hotmail.com writes: > My one question about the wizarding world and electricity is if wizards > REALLY don't use it (as suggested by Arthers mispronunciation etc.) why is > it called the Wizard's WIRELESS Network? Wireless? They don't use wires so > of course it's wireless. Why worth mentioning? > > > Megalynn Because there are no wires. Perhaps the person who invented it had seen Muggle wires and realized they didn't need them, hence the wireless. Could it be that simple? Probably not. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Mon Jan 27 01:40:38 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 01:40:38 -0000 Subject: Electricity and Wizard's Kitchens. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50710 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Megalynn S." wrote: > My one question about the wizarding world and electricity > is if wizards REALLY don't use it (as suggested by Arthur's > mispronunciation etc.) why is it called the Wizard's WIRELESS > Network? Wireless? They don't use wires so of course it's wireless. > Why worth mentioning? To me, that is evidence that wizards copy Muggle technology. The Muggle version is called "wireless" because it came after the "wire" (the Telegraph, recently explained in a book titled THE VICTORIAN INTERNET). The Wizarding version is called "wireless" because it is imitating the Muggle version. (I have speculated that the wizarding folk made an imitation Telegraph named Spellograph.) This is important to me because .. well, because of Muggle Pride .. the wizarding folk claim that Muggles use technology to imitate what wizards do by magic: Hermione specifically says so somewhere in canon. I accept that that was true for a couple thousand years, but at some point, the Muggle technology got ahead of the wizards and invented things from scratch and THEY imitated US. I said that was with the taming of electricity and some one corrected me that it was earlier. From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 02:08:01 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 02:08:01 -0000 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50711 So many great ones mentioned already, including (suprising to me) one of my favorites -- the "two Neptunes" exchange. I love that one also, but can't figure out why... Here's one from near the end of PS/SS, in the hospital wing when Harry is asking Dumbledore questions: "And there's something else..." "Fire away." "Quirrell said Snape --" "*Professor* Snape, Harry." "Yes, him -- ..." And in GoF, right after the first task, when Ron and Hermione meet Harry in the medical tent: Hermione stood nervously between them, looking from one to the other. Ron opened his mouth uncertainly. Harry knew Ron was about to apologize and suddently he found he didn't need to hear it. "It's okay," he said, before Ron could get the words out. "Forget it." "No," said Ron, "I shouldn't've --" "*Forget it,*" Harry said. Ron grinned nervously at him, and Harry grinned back. Hermione burst into tears. "There's nothing to cry about!" Harry told her, bewildered. And one I always have to read over three times: "Chocolate Frog!" he yelled angrily, standing on one leg. "Sugar Quill! Cockroach Cluster!" The gargoyle sprang to life and jumped aside. Harry blinked. "Cockroach Cluster?" he said, amazed. "I was only joking...." Annemehr who could pretty much quote large swaths of the books here... From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Mon Jan 27 02:09:32 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 02:09:32 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Cursin=92_Draco_on_the_Train_(filk)?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50712 Cursin' Draco on the Train (GoF, Chap. 37) To the tune of the Statler Brothers' Flowers on the Wall Hear the original at: http://www.foxlink.net/~bobnbren/1960s.html#F Dedicated to Oryomai (inspired by thread #49903) THE SCENE: The Hogwarts Express. DRACO, accompanied by CRABBE & GOYLE, mockingly confronts our heroes. DRACO (to HARRY) You pretendin' you don't know what's comin' down the tracks But we support the winning side `cause our Dark Lord is back Four years ago I offered you the chance to join our staff But you enrolled upon the side of Muggles and riff-raff DRACO, CRABBE & GOYLE Count out powers that will fall You can't handle us at all Those who cherish their Mudblood shall be thrown out with a thud Cedric Diggory was just the first to be deep-sixed And you are all next ? everything's fixed HARRY, HERMIONE & RON He's disrespecting Diggory, for Dumbledore lacks awe What he is lacking for in brains, he makes up in chutzpah Though fanfic writers sometimes say that Draco will convert For the moment the best plan's to render him inert (Enter FRED & GEORGE. All five simultaneously hex the Slytherins, who slump over unconscious) HARRY, HERMIONE, RON, FRED & GEORGE Cursin' Draco on the train What an excellent campaign With the right spells you can place Tentacles upon his face Snaky Slytherins have cast their lot with You-Know-Who But they ought to stick with Winnie-the-Pooh (Exeunt omnes, purposefully stepping upon each Slytherin body) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (updated today with 44 new filks) From jrwajw at gwi.net Sun Jan 26 23:11:12 2003 From: jrwajw at gwi.net (webba28 ) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 23:11:12 -0000 Subject: A theory regarding the "innocence" of Sirius Black and the Redemption of Peter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50713 Hi! I am painstakingly researching possible signs of redemption for Peter for the roundtable I am *hoping* is accepted for Nimbus. In my reading, I have discovered a couple of things and would like to pose a theory. Bear with me, as perhaps I am making no sense...this is merely a stab in the dark. It should be apparent to all of us by now that JKR chooses her words and dialogue carefully. Things are rarely black and white with her. Things that appear mundane to us at first become crystal clear later on, which leads me to ponder this quote by professor Trelawney in PoA: quote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- The Dark Lord lies alone and friendless, abandoned by his followers. His servant has been chained these twelve years. Tonight before midnight...will break free and set out to rejoin his master... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Does it seem odd to anyone else that the word "chained" is written here? Wormtail was never chained in the truest sense of the word. Is it meant to be symbolic? However, one other person was chained, and that was Sirius Black. Yes, Wormtail did "break free" before midnight but one other person broke free as well--Sirius Black. When Harry and Hermione used the Time-Turner, they went back several hours and managed to save Sirius. When they get back into the hospital wing it isfive minutes to midnight. In other words, two people "chained"--one literally and one not broke free. There may be arguments that Wormtail remained as a rat to spy for Lord V., but he had no idea when or if the Dark Lord would rise again- -to everyone it seemed as if The Dark Lord was dead and gone forever. Given that canonic portrayal of our beloved rat lends itself to the idea that Peter attatched himself to anyone who could protect him, I have a hard time believing that Peter would willingly try and tie himself to a person who held no power whatsoever for several years. Even if there were people upset that Wormtail had let down the side of darkness, they were either in Azkaban or dead. And with public opinion and the testimony of Muggles being what it was, I could totally see Wormtail being able to defend himself successfully against Black based on the outward appearances of the crime. Perhaps he remained a rat because he was afraid he'd be murdered by people like Lucius Malfoy who put on such prompt appearances...or he was a spy for the side of the good. Later in PoA, Dumbledore states to Harry and Hermione that he himself testified before the ministry: quote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- I myself gave evidence to the Ministry that Sirius had been the Potters' Secret Keeper--PoA pg. 392 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Why does he say this? If indeed the plan to change Secret-Keepers from Sirius to Peter were indeed true, as Sirius insists it was, why wouldn't Dumbledore say that it was Peter? Why would he still be saying it was "Sirius?" Didn't Dumbledore himself perform the Fidelius charm? I would think he'd know who he performed it on. Dumbledore also states to Harry and Hermione that "two innocent lives can be saved tonight." He never says Black specifically.... Now obviously Wormtail is indebted to the Dark Lord in some way, or is there out of sheer cowardice or whatever you wish to call it, but I seriously (no pun intended) suspect there's more to Sirius Black than meets the eye. He's remembered as laughing when the Ministry caught up with him. He's laughing at the sight in front of him-- Pettigrew's bloodied robes and all... After all this research, I find myself not wholly convinced that Sirius Black is as innocent as he seems to be at the end of PoA. Wormtail's no paragon of virtue, either, but something about Sirius doesn't sit well with me. I can't put my finger on it though. Let us discuss.... webba (who probably read waaaay too much into things) From mlacats at aol.com Mon Jan 27 01:23:02 2003 From: mlacats at aol.com (harriet_lupin ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 01:23:02 -0000 Subject: What year was Voldemort born? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50714 I recently visited a website, which had a quiz about various characters in the Harry Potter books. In the quiz about Voldemort, one of the questions was; 'what year was Voldemort born?" The choices they gave were: a. 1925 b. 1927 c. 1930 I think it's 1926. Now, my math never was my best subject in school but here's how I came to my conclusion... When Tom Riddle immortalized himself in that diary, he was 16. In the Chamber of Secrets it's 50 after the diary was written and the Chamber of Secrets was last opened. Harry's 12 in CoS which makes it 1992 because Harry was born in 1980, right? Now, go back 50 years and it's now 1942. If you go back 16 years from that you have 1926! If my math is wrong or if I'm figuring this out incorrectly, please let me know... but I think the year that Voldy was born was 1926. Harriet P.S. I'm not sure if I'm placing this in the right area -- I'm not sure how to do that. If it's not in the right area, I apologize. From mlacats at aol.com Mon Jan 27 01:31:04 2003 From: mlacats at aol.com (harriet_lupin ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 01:31:04 -0000 Subject: Is a Squib a Muggle? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50715 I was having a discussion with a friend about whether Petunia is a Squib and she said that a Squib is the same as a Muggle since neither one has magical abilities and that's the definition of a Muggle. I think that squibs are witches and wizards with possibly 'dormant' magical abilities. I guess a muggle can be born from a wizard and a witch but I don't really think that that's what a squib is. I don't think Filch is a muggle, for example. Any thoughts? Harriet From oiledlamp at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 01:52:22 2003 From: oiledlamp at yahoo.com (Amber Satterwhite) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 17:52:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Love Potions in our future? Favorite quotes? In-Reply-To: <1e5.5d4c7e.2b65cba6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030127015222.19905.qmail@web13907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50716 --- SnapesSlytherin at aol.com wrote: > > We have been introduced at least three times to Love > Potions. Could that > perhaps be a tactic in Voldemort's new war? Use > Love Potions and Veela and > simliar things to enchant the good guys? Heaven > knows that would give them a > great advantage.....Any thoughts? > > ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ I sometimes wonder about love charms, personally. James Potter's wand was good for transfiguration, and he became an animagus. Lilly Potter's wand was good for charms...so what was her big trick? Maybe she put a love charm on Snape and that's why he turned spy for Dumbledore, to protect her? But why did Voldemort not want to kill her? She was a "mudblood", after all. You'd think he wouldn't have given her a chance to step aside. But he did. Maybe her charms work had something to do with that? Anyway, we'll probably learn more about all that in June. In the meantime, my name is Amber, and I'm a Potter-maniac. Here are a few of my favorite quotes (although ya'll have already beaten me to some of the best ones!) "Devil's Snare, Devil's Snare...what did Professor Sprout say? -- it likes the dark and the damp --" "So light a fire!" Harry choked. "Yes, of course, but there's no wood!" Hermione cried, wringing her hands. "HAVE YOU GONE MAD?" Ron bellowed. "ARE YOU A WITCH OR NOT? -- PS "What *was* that?" "It was either a very big cat or a very small tiger." -- POA He thought back to how he'd felt while dodging the Horntail, and compared it to the long wait before he'd walked out to face it...there was no comparison; the wait had been immeasurably worse. -- GOF Ah, so true, so true. Amber ===== "From one small spark springs up a mighty flare." -- Paradiso, Canto 1 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 02:28:40 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 02:28:40 -0000 Subject: Electricity and Wizard's Kitchens. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50717 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Megalynn S." wrote: > My one question about the wizarding world and electricity is if wizards > REALLY don't use it (as suggested by Arthers mispronunciation etc.) why is > it called the Wizard's WIRELESS Network? Wireless? They don't use wires so > of course it's wireless. Why worth mentioning? > > > Megalynn > It's because in Britain, a *radio* is called a *wireless*. Or, it was, although I seem to remember a reference to BBC *radio* on the web, so maybe wireless is a more outdated term for it. So, the wizard equivalent to radio, in Britain, is called the WIZARDING Wireless Network to distinguish it from the MUGGLE wireless networks that we could listen to on our radios. Hope that was clear enough to help! Annemehr From BriBearBaby at backstreet-wallpaper.net Mon Jan 27 02:19:27 2003 From: BriBearBaby at backstreet-wallpaper.net (Patty) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 21:19:27 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? References: Message-ID: <002601c2c5aa$85914ec0$0101a8c0@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 50718 So far, though I am not finished reading all of the books, there has only been one line that really touched me. That line is said by Dumbledor in PS/SS and I believe it goes: It does not due to dwell on dreams, Harry, and forget to live. I can't quote that one because I lent my book to my sister, but you get the idea of which line I mean. :) Patty [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kewiromeo at aol.com Mon Jan 27 02:43:10 2003 From: kewiromeo at aol.com (kewiromeo at aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 21:43:10 EST Subject: What pet would you want? Message-ID: <77.84080c0.2b65f6be@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50719 I have decided that the toad will become one of the most powerful pets to have. Come on Neville, we know you have it in you. Aside from Harry's phoenix. Fawkes is cool. Wouldn't it be cool to have a peice of your pet as the core of your wand. Now, if I had a pet, I would want like a pixie or something. From like Zelda (if anyone knows what I'm talking about) where you have a fairy that is relatively helpful. Plus they are really small and glow a light which only you can see (so you can't be seen). And, if anyone of them look like Julia Roberts (Tinker Bell from Hook), I'm game. What would you guys like for a pet. I don't think a dragon or unicorn or giant spider will do, unless you are Hagrid sized. Nothing too expensive like a phoenix, unless you are Bill Gates. Tzvi of Brooklyn -the Son of Sam is my neighbor (litteraly) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From shunique69 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 00:45:40 2003 From: shunique69 at yahoo.com (Rona Patterson) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 16:45:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dursley's bribed?, charmed? or afraid? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030127004540.57664.qmail@web11703.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50720 --- "karywick " wrote: > I looked in the archives to find discussion on this > but could not > find any. Maybe its just too old for my computer to > find. If so just > please settle this argument between me and my > husband. > > The question is why after all the horrible things > that have happened > at the Dursley's house like Dudley's pig tail in > PS/SS, the cake > dropped in CoS, Aunt Marge being blown up in PoA, > and Dudley's four > foot tongue GoA, do the Dursleys keep letting Harry > come back each > summer? We know that canon says that Dumbledore > wants him at the > Dursley's because he is safe there but the Dursleys > must have some > say in the matter. > > I seem to think that they are really afraid of the > power that the > wizarding world has. [edited parts] >Shunique replies: I agree with you that it is likely that the Dursleys have gotten something out of this horrible deal. But another question I had was why does Dumbledore make Harry endure the Dursleys hatred. It bothers me that everyone is saying that the only one Voldemort fears (Dumbledore) has toss Harry to an even scarier fate the Dursleys. Just my thoughts. Shunique __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From dom-blokey at supanet.com Mon Jan 27 02:36:33 2003 From: dom-blokey at supanet.com (Dom McDermott) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 02:36:33 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What year was Voldemort born? References: Message-ID: <004301c2c5ac$e9497f30$c74728d5@Blokey> No: HPFGUIDX 50721 Harriet: > I recently visited a website, which had a quiz about various > characters in the Harry Potter books. In the quiz about Voldemort, > one of the questions was; 'what year was Voldemort born?" The > choices they gave were: > > a. 1925 > b. 1927 > c. 1930 > > I think it's 1926. Now, my math never was my best subject in school > but here's how I came to my conclusion... > I believe Voldemort entered Hogwarts in 1938 (popular question in Quidditch Trivia - don't ask) meaning that he would have been born 11 years before that, ie: 1927 I really can't back this up with anything canon, but that's the answer I believe to be correct... Dom From toberead at excite.com Mon Jan 27 03:11:09 2003 From: toberead at excite.com (aquariajade ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 03:11:09 -0000 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50722 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aquariajade " wrote: > > What are your favorites? > > Jade I just remembered another one... "Ooo, look at the weeny owl!!" - PoA That whole Pidwidgeon scene is very funny. I do not have the book here, or I would type it out. Jade From snorth at ucla.edu Mon Jan 27 03:35:55 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 03:35:55 -0000 Subject: A theory regarding the "innocence" of Sirius Black and the Redemption of Peter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50723 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "webba28 " wrote: > quote: > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > ---------- > The Dark Lord lies alone and friendless, abandoned by his followers. > His servant has been chained these twelve years. Tonight before > midnight...will break free and set out to rejoin his master... > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > ---------- > > > > Does it seem odd to anyone else that the word "chained" is written > here? Wormtail was never chained in the truest sense of the word. Is > it meant to be symbolic? However, one other person was chained, and > that was Sirius Black. Yes, Wormtail did "break free" before midnight > but one other person broke free as well--Sirius Black. When Harry and > Hermione used the Time-Turner, they went back several hours and > managed to save Sirius. When they get back into the hospital wing it > isfive minutes to midnight. > > In other words, two people "chained"--one literally and one not broke > free. > > There may be arguments that Wormtail remained as a rat to spy for > Lord V., but he had no idea when or if the Dark Lord would rise again- > -to everyone it seemed as if The Dark Lord was dead and gone forever. > Given that canonic portrayal of our beloved rat lends itself to the > idea that Peter attatched himself to anyone who could protect him, I > have a hard time believing that Peter would willingly try and tie > himself to a person who held no power whatsoever for several years. > Even if there were people upset that Wormtail had let down the side > of darkness, they were either in Azkaban or dead. And with public > opinion and the testimony of Muggles being what it was, I could > totally see Wormtail being able to defend himself successfully > against Black based on the outward appearances of the crime. Perhaps > he remained a rat because he was afraid he'd be murdered by people > like Lucius Malfoy who put on such prompt appearances...or he was a > spy for the side of the good. > > Later in PoA, Dumbledore states to Harry and Hermione that he himself > testified before the ministry: Me: I'll admit, that quote is vaguely written. Certainly, Wormtail wasn't chained in a literal sense. Some would argue that he didn't have much of a choice; it was either fake his death or be hunted down, by both good and evil. > quote: > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > ---------- > I myself gave evidence to the Ministry that Sirius had been the > Potters' Secret Keeper--PoA pg. 392 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > ---------- > > > > Why does he say this? If indeed the plan to change Secret-Keepers > from Sirius to Peter were indeed true, as Sirius insists it was, why > wouldn't Dumbledore say that it was Peter? Why would he still be > saying it was "Sirius?" Didn't Dumbledore himself perform the > Fidelius charm? I would think he'd know who he performed it on. > /Nowhere/ does it say that Dumbledore peformed the Fidelius charm. We know the Potters were wizards of some repute, I see no reason why James or Lily couldn't have performed, even if Dumbledore told them about it, taught them, etc. All Dumbledore knows is that the plan according to James/Lily/Sirius was to use Sirius as the Potters' secret keeper. We also know that at the last second, Sirius persuaded James to use Peter as their secret keeper, assuming that agents of the dark would come after himself (Sirius), the obvious choice (and, I believe, not only obvious, but *known* choice by several others close to the Potters, who may or may not have been spies, i.e. Lupin). > Dumbledore also states to Harry and Hermione that "two innocent lives > can be saved tonight." He never says Black specifically.... > He never says Buckbeak specifically! We know Buckbeak did attack Draco! Maybe he meant someone else! Seriously though, that logic is flawed. Wormtail had already escaped at that point, so Harry and Hermione were NOT saving him by using the Time Turner. If they hadn't used the Time Turner, Sirius dies, Buckbeak dies, and Peter STILL goes free. Honestly, it's pretty clear he means Sirius. > Now obviously Wormtail is indebted to the Dark Lord in some way, or > is there out of sheer cowardice or whatever you wish to call it, but > I seriously (no pun intended) suspect there's more to Sirius Black > than meets the eye. He's remembered as laughing when the Ministry > caught up with him. He's laughing at the sight in front of him-- > Pettigrew's bloodied robes and all... Well, he DID just make a decision that resulted in the deaths of his two best friends, parents of his Godson, etc. He also would have come to the realization that he had just been framed by the person who was directly responsible for leading Voldemort to the Potters- and he'll be in Azkaban because of his decision. The irony is sickening, really. Also, note that the source of our information in this case is Fudge. Who, if not evil (I'm undecided on this), is certainly a bumbling moron. Really though, I wouldn't blame Sirius for laughing. > > After all this research, I find myself not wholly convinced that > Sirius Black is as innocent as he seems to be at the end of PoA. > Wormtail's no paragon of virtue, either, but something about Sirius > doesn't sit well with me. I can't put my finger on it though. I don't think the strength of your case [on Wormtail's redemption] lies in implicating Sirius. People have already brought up this point, but if Sirius really is an agent of Voldemort, it sends a bad message to the children reading this book; 'you can't trust anyone.' Also, if it is as you argue, that Dumbledore actually does think that Sirius is a traitor, I don't really see Dumbledore letting him get too close to Harry. -Scott (who's going to get mildly annoyed if Harry Potter turns into Wheel of Time, where every third character is actually a spy for the forces of Evil. Seriously, if the characters in those books provide a decent representation of the population, half of everyone would be a Darkfriend... sheesh.) From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 03:49:59 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 19:49:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What year was Voldemort born? In-Reply-To: <004301c2c5ac$e9497f30$c74728d5@Blokey> Message-ID: <20030127034959.60711.qmail@web40511.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50724 --- Dom McDermott wrote: > Harriet: > > > I recently visited a website, which had a quiz > about various > > characters in the Harry Potter books. In the quiz > about Voldemort, > > one of the questions was; 'what year was Voldemort > born?" The > > choices they gave were: > > > > a. 1925 > > b. 1927 > > c. 1930 > > > > I think it's 1926. Now, my math never was my best > subject in school > > but here's how I came to my conclusion... > > > > I believe Voldemort entered Hogwarts in 1938 > (popular question in Quidditch > Trivia - don't ask) meaning that he would have been > born 11 years before > that, ie: 1927 > I really can't back this up with anything canon, but > that's the answer I > believe to be correct... > > Dom > > Well, since we've placed CoS as being in 1992, and Tom Riddle was a prefect the year he set the basilisk loose, he was either a 5th, 6th or 7th year in 1942, so, he was born in either 1927, 1926, or 1925. So it's definitely not 1930. ~Kathryn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jan 27 04:27:37 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 04:27:37 -0000 Subject: How did Snape see Lupin the night of the Prank? In-Reply-To: <20030127005243.91131.qmail@web40507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50725 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Maria Kirilenko wrote: > > >So, Snape didn't get "as far as this house" , it's from the passage that h egot a glimpse of Lupin. > Now the only thing that doesn't make sense is why that hole is not bloked in some way! Wouldn't Werewolf!Remus be able to get out of the Shack? Werent all doors and windows boarded up for this reason, to prevent him from going about and harming people? << If there was a door, and it was left open or unlatched, that would lend weight to Snape's contention that the Prank was a deliberate attempt to murder him. Perhaps the opening into the shack was a magical one, like the entrance to the Chamber of Secrets, but less powerful. Since it has been years since it was used, maybe the spell had worn off by the time of PoA. Pippin From twoplus3 at juno.com Mon Jan 27 04:54:23 2003 From: twoplus3 at juno.com (pastafor5 ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 04:54:23 -0000 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50726 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aquariajade " wrote: > I did a search for "favorite line from the book" and got no results, > so I guess this has not been discussed before. I have read this list > everyday, and noticed that some very serious subjects are discussed, > and I would like to lighten it up just a bit for short time. > > My favorite line from the books is: > > "I like a healthy breeze around my privates, thanks." - GoF > > I can not get past this scene without laughing. > > What are your favorites? > > Jade I think this was a great idea for discussion, although almost impossible to narrow down! My favorite lines include pretty much everything said by Fred and George ("He's Gred and I'm Forge"). But I was just wondering today whether it would be fun for JKR to put together a book of "words of wisdom" as said by Hagrid and Dumbledore. I've found myself quoting lines to my daughter as advise or to explain some things in life. For example: "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." (Dumbledore, COS ch.18) or: "Ah, well, people can be a bit stupid abou' their pets." (Hagrid, POA, ch.14) and one more: "Yeah, well, yeh get weirdos in every breed." (Hagrid, GOF, ch.16) They're all so true and there are so many lines to fit so many occasions - very much like Forest Gump, only more fun! Maybe this could be the next fund-raiser series. Who knows. From selah_1977 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 05:04:27 2003 From: selah_1977 at yahoo.com (Ebony ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 05:04:27 -0000 Subject: The wizarding world and empire (was Democracy and prejudice) In-Reply-To: <000801c2c567$b95d5480$5f4d6551@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50727 I was with you, agreeing in some points, disagreeing with others, but pretty much following your theory up until the very end, where you said: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" wrote: > Whereas in WW, there does not seem to be any concept of a "3rd World", of > the legacy of Empire, or of any sort of racial dimension. > > Or indeed any sort of religious one either. Oh, definitely not. I beg to differ strongly with you here. If the wizarding world did not mirror the Muggle one in any way... ...then why are Dean Thomas and Angelina Johnson named thusly? If, indeed, as you state the wizarding population of sub-Saharan Africa had been left intact in this particular magical world, I doubt *very seriously* that those two characters would have names like those. Sure, explain it away all you wish, but the reason why so many of the African-descended have European first, last, and middle names is because of the legacy of slavery. My own last name is not my blood-ancestor's name... it's the name of the plantation owner who bought my great-great-grandfather in Mississippi. Millions and millions of people worldwide have that in common with me, and I am willing to wager that Dean and Angelina do as well. Now, I do understand that there are quite a number of African immigrants who live in Britain. However, their names are somewhat different from those of West Indian heritage... who *were* descended from slaves. It is certain that many Africans, American Natives, Asians, etc. have European names today. Yet it is Dean and Angelina's *last* names... their family names... that flag to me that there was indeed something like the Middle Passage in the wizarding world. There had to have been. Sure, you can rationalize this by saying that both Dean *and* Angelina had ethnically British fathers (in which case they are not simply black, but biracial--and JKR is misnaming them). There are other explanations you could give. I say just give the easiest one. I also think it's significant that the other nonwhite characters that we see being educated at Hogwarts represent nations that England either conquered completely (Ireland, India, etc.) or had some sort of favored nation status with (China--although Hong Kong was under British control for a long time, yet? Don't know the history completely there.) If there was no empire in the history of JKR's wizarding world, then why are they being educated in Britain? Because Hogwarts is the best school in the world? If so, then *why* is Hogwarts the best, and not another place where magic likely has been practiced far longer (China, Egypt, etc.) than in either Britain or Europe? Let's be real for a moment here. The simplest path between two points is a straight line, and this textual evidence cannot be explained away so handily. I do not think that the wizarding world is utopian as far as racial and religious differences are concerned. Rather, I think they're different... and although I concede that magical national boundaries are often not contiguous with Muggle ones, I really think you're oversimplifying the rest of the wizarding world. And judging from what we know about Voldemort (and the mentions of Grindelwald), I would say that indeed the wizarding world knows about conquest and empire. Perhaps not in terms of the racialized or religious Other... but magic has its Othered groups as well. Now, perhaps JKR intended for her world to be completely colorblind and free of any traces of imperialism. Yet as Edward Said so famously stated in Culture and Imperialism, "Without empire, there is no modern European novel as we know it." Even though she does a noble job "teaching tolerance", as it were, in her novels, there still are vestiges of the pernicious legacy of empire in her work... and this is textual evidence that absolutely cannot be refuted. --Ebony AKA AngieJ (bothering HP4GU re: the legacy of race, colonialism, and empire in the Harry Potter novels since c. 2000) From devika at sas.upenn.edu Mon Jan 27 05:18:21 2003 From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (devika261 ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 05:18:21 -0000 Subject: A theory regarding the "innocence" of Sirius Black and the Redemption of Peter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50728 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "webba28 " wrote: > Hi! I am painstakingly researching possible signs of redemption for > Peter for the roundtable I am *hoping* is accepted for Nimbus. In my > reading, I have discovered a couple of things and would like to pose > a theory. Bear with me, as perhaps I am making no sense...this is > merely a stab in the dark. > > It should be apparent to all of us by now that JKR chooses her words > and dialogue carefully. Things are rarely black and white with her. > Things that appear mundane to us at first become crystal clear later > on, which leads me to ponder this quote by professor Trelawney in > PoA: > > > > quote: > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > ---------- > The Dark Lord lies alone and friendless, abandoned by his followers. > His servant has been chained these twelve years. Tonight before > midnight...will break free and set out to rejoin his master... > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > ---------- > > > > Does it seem odd to anyone else that the word "chained" is written > here? Wormtail was never chained in the truest sense of the word. Is > it meant to be symbolic? However, one other person was chained, and > that was Sirius Black. Yes, Wormtail did "break free" before midnight > but one other person broke free as well--Sirius Black. When Harry and > Hermione used the Time-Turner, they went back several hours and > managed to save Sirius. When they get back into the hospital wing it > isfive minutes to midnight. > > In other words, two people "chained"--one literally and one not broke > free. I think that the vagueness of this line is just a red herring. We hear Prof. Trelawney say this before we know that Sirius is innocent, so we (and Harry) still believe that he is, in fact, Voldemort's servant. Considering what we think we know at this stage of the story, it is more than reasonable to assume that JKR intends the reader to believe that Prof. Trelawney is referring to Sirius here. After all, we don't even know that Peter is alive, much less disguised as Scabbers. Therefore, thinking that Sirius is Voldemort's servant is the obvious thing to do. That means that, knowing JKR's style, thinking that Sirius is Voldemort's servant is probably the wrong thing to do :) > There may be arguments that Wormtail remained as a rat to spy for > Lord V., but he had no idea when or if the Dark Lord would rise again- > -to everyone it seemed as if The Dark Lord was dead and gone forever. > Given that canonic portrayal of our beloved rat lends itself to the > idea that Peter attatched himself to anyone who could protect him, I > have a hard time believing that Peter would willingly try and tie > himself to a person who held no power whatsoever for several years. > Even if there were people upset that Wormtail had let down the side > of darkness, they were either in Azkaban or dead. And with public > opinion and the testimony of Muggles being what it was, I could > totally see Wormtail being able to defend himself successfully > against Black based on the outward appearances of the crime. Perhaps > he remained a rat because he was afraid he'd be murdered by people > like Lucius Malfoy who put on such prompt appearances...or he was a > spy for the side of the good. Peter wouldn't willingly tie himself to someone with no power if he had any other choice. We know that because he did disguise himself as a rat for twelve years instead of searching for Voldemort. However, he still had that option because no living person, except for Sirius, knew both that he was alive and that he was an animagus. After the scene in the Shrieking Shack, more people, including Dumbledore, knew what he was. Peter then had no choice but to leave them. If Peter had been a spy for the good side, Dumbledore would have known, and he would have protected Peter. The fact that Peter felt that he needed to escape, rather than going to Dumbledore for protection, shows that Peter was not on Dumbledore's side. I think that he went back to Voldemort because he realized that his cover was blown and that he no longer would be able to convince anyone that he was on the good side. If he had to be on Voldemort's side, it would be better for him to show his loyalty before Voldemort regained power and punished him. > Later in PoA, Dumbledore states to Harry and Hermione that he himself > testified before the ministry: > > > quote: > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > ---------- > I myself gave evidence to the Ministry that Sirius had been the > Potters' Secret Keeper--PoA pg. 392 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > ---------- > > > > Why does he say this? If indeed the plan to change Secret-Keepers > from Sirius to Peter were indeed true, as Sirius insists it was, why > wouldn't Dumbledore say that it was Peter? Why would he still be > saying it was "Sirius?" Didn't Dumbledore himself perform the > Fidelius charm? I would think he'd know who he performed it on. There is no evidence that Dumbledore performed the Fidelius Charm. He apparently knew that the charm was going to be performed and that Sirius had been designated Secret Keeper. However, Sirius changed the plan at the last minute without telling anyone at all. Perhaps one of the Potters themselves cast the charm. It has been suggested that Lily's area of expertise was charms, so maybe she cast it. In any case, the point is that no one besides the Potters, Sirius, and Peter knew that the Secret Keeper had been changed. No one that we know of, anyway. > Dumbledore also states to Harry and Hermione that "two innocent lives > can be saved tonight." He never says Black specifically.... He doesn't say Peter specifically, either. Or Buckbeak, for that matter. And I think we can assume that Buckbeak was one of the "innocent lives." However, given that Harry had already saved Peter's life in the Shrieking Shack, I don't think that Dumbledore would be sending Harry and Hermione to save him again. Therefore, Dumbledore must have been referring to Sirius. > > Now obviously Wormtail is indebted to the Dark Lord in some way, or > is there out of sheer cowardice or whatever you wish to call it, but > I seriously (no pun intended) suspect there's more to Sirius Black > than meets the eye. He's remembered as laughing when the Ministry > caught up with him. He's laughing at the sight in front of him-- > Pettigrew's bloodied robes and all... Many people have offered explanations for Sirius's reaction to his arrest. I agree with those who say that the unbelievable shock and irony of the situation, combined with his grief, would have made it seem like the most unimaginably horrible nightmare that Sirius had ever had. There must have been such a sense of unreality to it. In a situation like that, I don't know what a "normal" reaction really would be. I can easily see myself laughing too, at the complete and terrible absurdity of it all. > > After all this research, I find myself not wholly convinced that > Sirius Black is as innocent as he seems to be at the end of PoA. > Wormtail's no paragon of virtue, either, but something about Sirius > doesn't sit well with me. I can't put my finger on it though. I could go into Sirius's character flaws, but we've already done that many times on this list, so I won't repeat them here. Whatever his imperfections, however, he strikes me as trustworthy, and more importantly, innocent. And let's not forget that Dumbledore actually says that he believes Sirius's story (PoA Ch. 21 p393 American hardcover edition). So, unless Dumbledore is lying in this instance, which I don't believe, he truly does believe in Sirius's innocence-- and Peter's guilt. > --Devika, ready to defend Sirius at any cost. From probono at rapidnet.com Mon Jan 27 05:34:11 2003 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 05:34:11 -0000 Subject: A theory regarding the "innocence" of Sirius Black and the Redemption of Peter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50729 "webba28 " wrote: > The Dark Lord lies alone and friendless, abandoned by his followers. > His servant has been chained these twelve years. Tonight before > midnight...will break free and set out to rejoin his master... > > > Does it seem odd to anyone else that the word "chained" is written > here? Wormtail was never chained in the truest sense of the word. Me: Yes, I asked about this quote back in December but there isn't a unanimous agreement on its meaning. Personally, no matter how I read it (literally, figuratively, metaphorically, symbolically...), I simply can't describe Pettigrew as being 'chained'. And another problem is how specific and detailed and frankly 'literal' the rest of the prediction is: -Dark Lord,twelve years;tonight before midnight- I feel I have to take the word 'chained' just as literally. Now, with that said... "webba28 " wrote: >...I seriously (no pun intended) suspect there's more to Sirius >Black than meets the eye. He's remembered as laughing when the > Ministry caught up with him. He's laughing at the sight in front >of him -- Pettigrew's bloodied robes and all... Me again: Again with that said, I have a swiss-cheese theory that Sirius' laughing uncontrollably at the scene of the crime is the direct result of a charm...possibly Rictusempra, or something more powerful but along those lines. If so, who did it? when? why? And why doesn't Sirius seem to remember it or alternately, feel the need to mention it? (I did say it was swiss cheese). Well, there you have it. I'm still suspicious of Black and I'm still suspicious of Fudge and I simply can't decide who to put my money on. -Tanya P.S. BTW, as I reread passages from PoA, I came across a quote that made me chuckle. ...And Crookshanks was thrown to the floor as Black lunged at Scabbers;Ron yelled with pain as Black's wait fell on his broken leg. "Sirius, NO!" Lupin yelled... I just wonder if Lupin should have followed that up with "DOWN! STAAAAAY! That's a good doggie...." From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 05:39:57 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 05:39:57 -0000 Subject: Dursley's bribed?, charmed? or afraid? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50730 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "karywick " wrote: > > The question is why after all the horrible things that have happened > at the Dursley's house like Dudley's pig tail ..edited..., do the > Dursleys keep letting Harry come back each summer? We know that > canon says that Dumbledore wants him at the Dursley's because he > is safe there but the Dursleys must have some say in the matter. > > I seem to think that they are really afraid of the power that the > wizarding world has. ...edited... > > I believe that somehow the Dursley's know that Dumbledore can offer >them protection and the price of that protection is to care for Harry > ...edited... > My husband seems to think that they are getting paid money by the > MoM. He points to the new "company car" ...edited... as proof that > they are being paid. His rationale is that since he owns his own > company it seems a little strange to get a company car, ...edited > > Does anyone else have any feelings on this topic? > > "Karen" bboy_mn: I think part of the answer to all our questions about the Dursleys (among other things) is in the letter that Dumbledore left with Harry on the Dursley's doorstep. I've often wondered if, along with an explanation of what happened to Harry's parent, there wasn't some additional /incentive/ for the Durley's to care for Harry. If there is, I think it is withheld until Harry successfully completes school. I speculate that the Dursley are being very businesslike about their potential reward; if they minimized expeditures (cloths and food for Harry), they will maximize their return on their investment (the reward). I also think that the letter explained that because of certain arrangements (ancient magical protection) made by Dumbledore, Harry will always be safe at the Dursleys which would imply that the Dursley would also be reasonably safe by assocication. As far as things like the incident with Aunt Marge, within a very few short minutes after Harry left, the Accidental Magic Reversal Squad was on the scene straightening things out, and we would assume that soon after a representative of the Ministry and/or of Dumbledore was on the scene. So from the Dursley's perspective, Aunt Marge blows up and the next thing they know there house is being stormed by wizards, then some one of power shows up, and while a gang of wizards stands around intently watching, they ask if the Dursley's will take Harry back in next summer. I don't think they would have the courage to say NO in the face of what to them look like a gang of storm troopers. Definite intimidation factor there. As far as the 'company car', I think it was just a company car. Vernon doesn't own Grunning's Drill Company. If he did, it would be Durlsey's Drill Company. Uncle Vernon is a Director, which I assume is upper management; probably just under a vice president, or perhaps the regional manager for that one office. That is, he could be the head of that office, but not the head of Grunning's. The Dursleys don't seem very charitable, so I have to think that they are either intimidated and/or are expecting a substantial reward. What was in that Letter?!?! Only five more months before we hopefully find out. bboy_mn From probono at rapidnet.com Mon Jan 27 05:56:14 2003 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 05:56:14 -0000 Subject: What year was Voldemort born? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50731 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "harriet_lupin " wrote: > I recently visited a website, which had a quiz about various > characters in the Harry Potter books. In the quiz about Voldemort, > one of the questions was; 'what year was Voldemort born?" The > choices they gave were: > > a. 1925 > b. 1927 > c. 1930 > > I think it's 1926. Now, my math never was my best subject in school > but here's how I came to my conclusion... > > When Tom Riddle immortalized himself in that diary, he was 16. In > the Chamber of Secrets it's 50 after the diary was written and the > Chamber of Secrets was last opened. Harry's 12 in CoS which makes it > 1992 because Harry was born in 1980, right? Now, go back 50 years > and it's now 1942. If you go back 16 years from that you have 1926! > If my math is wrong or if I'm figuring this out incorrectly, please > let me know... but I think the year that Voldy was born was 1926. > > Harriet > > P.S. I'm not sure if I'm placing this in the right area -- I'm not > sure how to do that. If it's not in the right area, I apologize. Me: Your figures are absolutely right except that the last time the chamber was opened was 50 years from June 13th, 1993 not 1992 (it's the END of the 92-93 school year ;) That makes Tom 16 in 1943 and born in 1927. At least that's how I figure it and math definitely wasn't my strong point either! -Tanya From sevothtarte at gmx.net Mon Jan 27 07:26:23 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 08:26:23 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What pet would you want? In-Reply-To: <77.84080c0.2b65f6be@aol.com> Message-ID: <3Y5ZPKE0E9YUPKWU4141PJIB072XUS.3e34df1f@tk> No: HPFGUIDX 50732 Tzvi of Brooklyn: >I have decided that the toad will become one of the most powerful pets to >have. I know a roleplaying system where witch characters can choose animal familiars. If they take a raven or cat, they can see through their pet's eyes and their senses are enhightened. If they pick a toad, they don't get these benefits but the familiar has it's own small amout of magic power which it can lend the witch and also use it for some very basic spells, like hurting someone who attacks it's master. Maybe this is based on some real witch/toad mythology... Would explain why anyone would chose a toad over a cat, owl or rat. Torsten From sevothtarte at gmx.net Mon Jan 27 07:20:46 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 08:20:46 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Goblins (was: Gringotts Bank, Parsletounge, New Voldie) In-Reply-To: <004901c2c559$46ee9fc0$a705a6d8@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50733 Amanda (and Jan): >I still think Binns is there to plant a giant red herring, akin to the >"Snape wants the DADA job" rumor. In each and every book we are shown >goblins, or goblins are referred to, and they are very much harmless and >under control and in the background and no threat. We are being lulled, >by their being the subject of such a dry and boring teacher, a class >everyone blows off. Too bad there's no mention in canon when the last Goblin Rebellion took place and what caused them in the first place. >From how they acted in the being/beast affairs described in FBAWTFT, they don't seem to be evil, but rather clever and mischievious, in a good-natured way. They cause trouble just for fun (leading those trolls), but don't do serious damage. So, what were those rebellions like? Bloody uprisings or just assaults with practical jokes? >BUT, the goblins were quite dangerous in the past, if you actually >consider that these are rebellions and wars they're learning about. AND, >goblins now control the only wizard bank we know of. Something important must have happened between goblins and wizards. Creatures who constantly cause trouble aren't your first choice when it comes to entrusting someone with your riches (well, maybe Gringott's is a giant prank and the goblins are already planning the day when they'll make a big getaway with all the money ^_~). And just what are their powers? They can stand up to wizards, so they very likely have their own kind of magic, and it's pretty powerful if it's good enough to protect the Gringotts vaults from practically everyone (Quirrellmort's the only one we hear about getting through). If the rumours are true, they are able to control dragons well enough to use them as guards. Plus, they were able to make trolls listen and teach them whole sentences, and direct them towards the FBAWTFT-meetings. >I think the goblins have some major role to play. Indeed. They're many, they're powerful, they're in the middle of things. It's not just the money they could mess with, think about what else is in the vaults... artifacts in the same power league as the Philosopher's Stone perhaps? Still, I don't think they'll support LV... They are crooks, selfish and greedy, but don't strike me as really evil. Not until we know more about those rebellions and just how far they're willing to go for money. >I think, however, being Voldemort, he'll underestimate the goblins like >Bagman did, like everyone in Binns' class or the wizard world does I don't think they're underestimated. The kids are bored by their lessons, but no one ever calls goblins stupid or weak or not worthy to be taken seriously. If those rebellions hadn't been somewhat important and serious, they wouldn't play such a big part in history teaching. Bagman underestimated them, but he isn't the brightest mind around... Torsten From sevothtarte at gmx.net Mon Jan 27 06:54:12 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 07:54:12 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Veela In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <61TSKHCADAUQ9421FEKJBKG04A7BHD.3e34d794@tk> No: HPFGUIDX 50734 Catlady: >In the Muggle RL, veelas come from the Slavic world (with various >names and a Greek influence, so they are nereids in Greece and >rusalki in Bulgaria), where they are believed to begin as the spirts >of women/girls who die young and unmarried/childless. They fly by >turning into swans by wearing a swan skin. A man who finds veelas >dancing or swimming in their human form can capture one as his wife >by stealing her swan skin. She will be beautiful and fertile, do the >housework well and raise the children, but if she EVER gets a chance, >she will grab her swan skin and fly away and her husband and children >will never see her again. Now this is interesting! There's a japanese myth/fairytale about (I'll probably make some big mistakes in the translation of the key terms, but anyway) fairies from heaven which descend to earth and take a bath in a lake. A man watches them and steals one of their feather cloaks. Without it, the fairy to which it belongs can't return to heaven and has to stay on earth. The man marries her and she bears his children. One day, she overhears her kids talking about where he hid her feather cloak. She reclaims it and returns to heaven. I've read there are many very similar myths all around the world, which now seems to be very true. ^^ Torsten From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 07:55:03 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 07:55:03 -0000 Subject: How did Snape see Lupin the night of the Prank? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50735 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Maria Kirilenko wrote: > > << So, do we stick to the idea that no one saw any need to install a > door, and Snape saw Lupin through the open hole, pacing in the room > above? >> > > I've always imagined that there was a thick-ish wooden door blocking > the trapdoor but Werewolf!Lupin, driven mad by the scent of human, > scratched and bit at it, and clawed enough of an opening for Snape to > glimpse a silhouette of wolf snout, and put two and two together. bboy_mn: I haven't been following this thread that closely, so sorry, if this has already been covered. Like all problems that we don't seem to be able to resolve, the answer is, of course, Magic. I have no doubt that there are barrier charms. That seems like a pretty straight forward charm to me. So the Shrieking Shack could have an EXIT barrier charm, that is synchronized with the phases of the moon. When the moon approaches full, the barrier charm blocks any attempts to exit the house, which includes exiting through a hole in the floor. Now there would be no need to use a barrier charm for ENTRANCE to the house because the only entrance is blocked by the Whomping Willow. Plus, it may be an automatic charm that grows stronger as the full moon approaches rather than switching ON at the full moon. So, to prevent any resistance to Lupin getting in, the barrier charm is one way. Once he's in, he can't get out until the moon phase passes and the barrier charm weakens. So, that would leave us with a way for Snape to see Lupin, who may have come over to the hole to investigate a noise he heard or a scent he picked up. Lupin can't get beyond the barrier, but if James hadn't stopped Snape, he could have entered the house. Once he entered, once he went past the barrier charm, Snape would have been trapped in the house with Wolf!Lupin with no means of escape. The easiest answer is always... Magic. Just a thought. bboy_mn From mb2910 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 27 07:59:04 2003 From: mb2910 at hotmail.com (Meira B) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:59:04 +0200 Subject: Crouch's memory (was: Re: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50736 Derannimer asked: Also--these are all GOF-- "Harry wanted very much to ask whether Mr. Crouch had stopped calling Percy 'Weatherby' yet, but resisted the temptation." (GOF, Chap. 23. By the way, in a rather serious footnote: Elkins, do you think that Mr. Crouch's inability to recognize other people's identities has anything to do with his cronic inability to remember his assistant's *name?*) Me: I know that this question was directed at Elkins, but I just had to chime in. I have a terrible memory for people's names (it can be quite embarassing sometimes). It usually takes me a very long time till I manage to remember someone's name. Crouch didn't have such a long time to work closely with Precy before Voldemort moved in and started Imperio-ing him around. He might've remembered that Percy's name is 'something with a -W-', or maybe he thinks that such an unimportant thing as Percy's last name is hardly worth the trouble of remembering it. And Percy idolises Crouch so much that he doesn't feel comfortable correcting him. I know that Crouch and Arthur talked a bit before the Quidditch game started in GoF, but it's possible he didn't make a mental connection between Arthur and 'Weatherby'. Meira. "I love deadlines. I love the whooshing sound they make as they fly by." ~Douglas Adams~ _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From baringer2k at aol.com Mon Jan 27 03:16:50 2003 From: baringer2k at aol.com (baringer2k at aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 22:16:50 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] What year was Voldemort born? Message-ID: <106.1edcb826.2b65fea2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50737 This brings to mind another question related to You-Know-Who's age. When Wormtail Pettigrew brought him back to life in a new body, would that body resemble his original body (which is what I assume)? And if so, would that body be the same age as he ought to be, as if he had continued aging without being "interrupted" by being killed? Would that body therefore have any of the effects of age, like rheumatism or arthritis or incontinence? ;-) Just a thought... Marcus in Shreveport [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From BriBearBaby at backstreet-wallpaper.net Mon Jan 27 03:29:09 2003 From: BriBearBaby at backstreet-wallpaper.net (Patty) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 22:29:09 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dursley's bribed?, charmed? or afraid? References: <20030127004540.57664.qmail@web11703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00bc01c2c5b4$50530b40$0101a8c0@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 50738 >Shunique writes: >I agree with you that it is likely that the Dursleys >have gotten something out of this horrible deal. But >another question I had was why does Dumbledore make >Harry endure the Dursleys hatred. It bothers me that >everyone is saying that the only one Voldemort fears >(Dumbledore) has toss Harry to an even scarier fate >the Dursleys. >Just my thoughts. >Shunique Do you think that, aside from the Dursley's being Harry's only living relatives, that maybe one of the reasons that Dumbledore sends him back to them each summer is to also strengthen him for greater battles yet to come? He may not be allowed to use his magic while away from Hogwarts, but Harry is still able to gain his strength, wisdom and indepenence through the trials that he must endure with his muggle family. I guess the old saying could be true in this case: What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Patty [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From renati at link.net.id Mon Jan 27 04:17:12 2003 From: renati at link.net.id (Renati Adriani) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:17:12 +0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50739 When I first read the books, I collapsed in fits of laughter every few pages or so, so singling out any particular line (or scene, for that matter) is well nigh impossible. *** "This? It is called a Pensieve," said Dumbledore. "I sometimes find, and I am sure you know the feeling, that I simply have too many thoughts and memories crammed into my mind." "Er," said Harry, who couldn't truthfully say that he had ever felt anything of the sort. *** And a Percy-Gred-Forge double whammy: "Can't stay long, Mother," he said. "I'm up front, the Prefects have got two compartments to themselves..." "Oh, are you a *Prefect*, Percy?" said one of the twins, with an air of great surprise. "You should have said something, we had no idea." "Hang on, I think I remember him saying something about it," said the other twin. "Once..." "Or twice..." "A minute..." "All summer..." ...Percy, however, held out his hand solemnly as though he and Harry had never met and said, "Harry. How nice to see you." "Hello, Percy," said Harry, trying not to laugh. "I hope you're well?" said Percy pompously, shaking hands. It was rather like being introduced to the mayor." "Very well, thanks..." "Harry!" said Fred, elbowing Percy out of the way and bowing deeply. "Simply *splendid* to see you, old boy..." "Marvellous," said George, pushing Fred aside and seizing Harry's hand in turn. "Absolutely spiffing." Percy scowled. "That's enough, now," said Mrs. Weasley. "Mum!" said Fred, as though he'd only just spotted her, and seized her hand, too. "How really corking to see you..." *** The Map's "messages" to Snape is up there too. Tituk (who wants Pigwidgeon for a pet) From jayemelle at earthlink.net Mon Jan 27 05:19:55 2003 From: jayemelle at earthlink.net (tesseract197 ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 05:19:55 -0000 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50740 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aquariajade " wrote: > I did a search for "favorite line from the book" and got no results, > so I guess this has not been discussed before. My favorite line from the books is: > > "I like a healthy breeze around my privates, thanks." - GoF > > I can not get past this scene without laughing. > > What are your favorites? Me: I can't narrow it down much, especially because so many great ones have already been submitted, but I've always loved this one (sorry I'm at work and can't quote verbatim): The scene: Around the dinner table at the Burrow before the Quidditch World Cup in GoF. Percy is bemoaning the state his inbox would be in if he missed a lot of work to see the match. One of the twins suggests he might, once again, find dragon dung in it. Percy turns red, protesting, "That was a fertilizer sample from Romania. It was nothing personal!" One of the twins leans over to Harry and whispers, "It was. We sent it." Tess From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Mon Jan 27 05:34:54 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 21:34:54 -0800 Subject: Sports and Cheating Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50741 I'm watching the superbowl with my family right now (actually it's a commercial break) and I was thinking about magical cheating and it's use in sports. Dumbledore is able to slow Harry's fall to the ground in PoA, and, in CoS, the rogue bludger is destroyed by Finite Incantatem. In SS, Quirrel jinxes Harry's broom... In Quidditch games, at least at Hogwarts, it is clear that there are no charms that prevent the use of magic (other than brooms). What about at official league games? Sound amplification charms work, but curses? I'm curious if anyone's ever tried to curse someone off their brooms there... It leads to interesting thoughts. Think about the Raiders--their fans have rioted and pillaged and done Bad Things occassionally. Fully trained and armed wizards could do a lot of damage. This was somewhat explored in GoF, with the Death Eater Fiasco, of course. And back to the subject of cheating. What prevents wizards from making bets on a certain muggle sport, then magically sabotaging the game? Slowing down or accelerating a competitor, or casting banishing charms on a flying football... a creative wizard could get a lot of money this way. It's just a matter of not getting caught... -DM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From shannling at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 06:17:02 2003 From: shannling at yahoo.com (shannling ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 06:17:02 -0000 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50742 - I think this was a great idea for discussion, although almost > impossible to narrow down! My favorite lines include pretty much > everything said by Fred and George ("He's Gred and I'm Forge"). You're right. One of my favourites is in COS when Harry is suspected of being Slytherin's heir: "Make way for the heir of Slytherin, seriously evil wizard." I find myself waving my arms as if to direct the whole scene. Long time lurker, hi to all. Shannling From risako at nexusanime.com Mon Jan 27 06:30:15 2003 From: risako at nexusanime.com (Melissa McCarthy) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 02:30:15 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dursley's bribed?, charmed? or afraid? References: Message-ID: <00cb01c2c5cd$8e876280$55a694d1@vaio> No: HPFGUIDX 50743 > bboy_mn: > I think part of the answer to all our questions about the Dursleys > (among other things) is in the letter that Dumbledore left with Harry > on the Dursley's doorstep. I've often wondered if, along with an > explanation of what happened to Harry's parent, there wasn't some > additional /incentive/ for the Durley's to care for Harry. If there > is, I think it is withheld until Harry successfully completes school. > I speculate that the Dursley are being very businesslike about their > potential reward; if they minimized expeditures (cloths and food for > Harry), they will maximize their return on their investment (the reward). That's certainly plausible, but if the incentive is being withheld until Harry completes school, why were the Dursleys so dead-set against having him go to Hogwarts? You'd think they'd both have been shooing him off as soon as possible! Granted, they hate magic, but as Harry himself says at one point, he doesn't figure their hatred of magic would extend to a large pile of gold. I'd be more inclined to think that if the letter was coercive at all, it contained some sort of veiled threat rather than a promise of reward. The Dursleys' love of money and resentment of Harry is enough, IMO, to explain their reluctance to spend much on him. bboy_mn: > As far as the 'company car', I think it was just a company car. Vernon > doesn't own Grunning's Drill Company. If he did, it would be Durlsey's > Drill Company. I think it was just a company car too. Are we sure Vernon doesn't own the company? There's any number of law firms called, say, Brown, Brown, Smith & Brown when there haven't been any Browns or Smiths at the company for years. If he does own the company, he could simply have kept the name Grunning's for reasons of brand recognition. Melissa, devoted Dursley-hater From bobafett at harbornet.com Mon Jan 27 06:47:11 2003 From: bobafett at harbornet.com (BoBaFeTT) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 22:47:11 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? References: Message-ID: <001801c2c5cf$ebd67dc0$83a242cf@home> No: HPFGUIDX 50744 My favorite line, hands down no contest, is when Sirius Black asked if Harry wanted to live with him. It still gives me overwhelming excitment just thinking about it again ;) "BoBaFeTT" From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 08:44:37 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 08:44:37 -0000 Subject: A theory regarding the "innocence" of Sirius Black and the Redemption of Pet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50745 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "webba28 " wrote: > ...edited... > PoA: > > quote: > > ------------------------------------------------------- > The Dark Lord lies alone and friendless, abandoned by his followers. > His servant has been chained these twelve years. Tonight before > midnight...will break free and set out to rejoin his master... > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > Does it seem odd to anyone else that the word "chained" is written > here? Wormtail was never chained in the truest sense of the word. > Is it meant to be symbolic? However, one other person was chained, > and that was Sirius Black. Yes, Wormtail did "break free" before > midnight but one other person broke free as well--Sirius Black. ...edited... > > In other words, two people "chained"--one literally and one not > broke free. > -end this part- bboy_mn: Well... strike one. At least in my ballgame, strike one. I don't recall reading anything that indicated Sirius was kept in chains. In a cell, yes; but literally in chains, no. Sirius and Peter were both imprisoned. Sirius was imprisoned in a cell, and Peter was imprisoned in the body of a rat. For Peter, abandoning his rat body carried a high probability of death, so he was stuck with it. So, no one was literally kept in chains for (approx) 15 years. -bboy_mn-end this part- > webba continues: > ...edited... I have a hard time believing that Peter would > willingly try and tie himself to a person who held no power > whatsoever for several years. ...edited... > -end this part- bboy_mn: Strike two. There is one small problem with rich and powerful people, they rarely have rats for pets, and they virtually never pick up stray rats wandering around for pets. So, no one of any significants was going to take Rat!Peter in. But, a poor family with a bunch of kids would very likely take a rat in as a pet, if it hung around, acted friendly, and seemed clean. In fact, the kids probably found it and made it a pet long before Molly or Arthur found out about it. Once they found out, and the rat seemed tame and clean, they probably accepted it as a new pet without question. The Weasleys with a large pack of kids, has a high probability that one among them will take pity of a hungry but friendly rat. Also, they had a lot of kids that were going to go to school over a long period of time, that would help Peter keep track of what was going on at Hogwarts. Arthur seems very well connect at the Ministry, he seems to know every one and he seems to have a lot of friends. People come to him for favors. He certainly has a likeable personality. True he hasn't advanced much finacially, but that doesn't mean, he doesn't know his way around, and indeed get around inside the working of the Ministry. I would say, Peter took the best he could get, and that wasn't that bad for a rat. -boy_mn-end this part- > webba continues: > > Later in PoA, Dumbledore states to Harry and Hermione that he > himself testified before the ministry: ...edited... > > > quote: > ------------------------------------------------------- > I myself gave evidence to the Ministry that Sirius had been the > Potters' Secret Keeper--PoA pg. 392 -------------------------------------------------------- > > Why does he say this? If indeed the plan to change Secret-Keepers > from Sirius to Peter were indeed true, as Sirius insists it was, why > wouldn't Dumbledore say that it was Peter? > > webba (who probably read waaaay too much into things) bboy_mn: Strike three. Dumbledore offerred to be the Secret Keeper. He may have even offerred to perform the charm. But obviously he didn't, because he doesn't know who the Secret Keeper is. As others have pointed out, it was logical that James would use his best and most trusted friend, and that indeed was the original plan. Dumbledore had no reason to assume that plan had change. The Secret Keeper Charm? Jame and Sirius were two brilliant students, they figured out how to become animagus while still in school. I see no reason to believe that two brilliant experienced adult wizards couldn't perform the charm themselves, especially now that the charm was going to be placed on a third party. In conclusion, I agree that the 'has been chained' reference was an attempt to not give away who she was talking about. I mean where is the mystery if she says 'has been a rat for 12 years' or 'has been in Azakban for 12 years'? The statement at this stage of the story needs to have a degree of ambiguity until later when more of the details are revealed. That ambiguity still exists to some degree as is apparent by us having this conversation, however, generally speaking, it seems to be resolved at this point. Although, not so resolved that it couldn't come back to bite us in the future. Just my opinion. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 09:10:31 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:10:31 -0000 Subject: Dursley's bribed?, charmed? or afraid? In-Reply-To: <00cb01c2c5cd$8e876280$55a694d1@vaio> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50746 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Melissa McCarthy" wrote: > > bboy_mn: (originally said) > > ... if, along with an explanation of what happened to Harry's > > parent, there wasn't some additional /incentive/ for the > > Durley's .... If there is, I think it is withheld until Harry > > successfully completes school. > Melissa respomds: > > That's certainly plausible, but if the incentive is being withheld > until Harry completes school, why were the Dursleys so dead-set > against having him go to Hogwarts? > -end this part- bboy_mn: Sorry, just a bad case of foot-in-mouth syndrom. What I really should have said, is until Harry comes of age which just happens to coincide with when he gets out of school. -bboy_mn-end this part- > Melissa continues: > I'd be more inclined to think that ... the letter ... contained > some sort of veiled threat rather than a ... reward. The Dursleys' > love of money and resentment of Harry is enough, IMO, to explain > their reluctance to spend much on him. > -end this part- bboy_mn: I think that view is probably how we are intended to interpret that book at this time. We really won't know until we find out what's in that letter. I have a feeling this summer (in the book) Harry will demand to see the letter. > bboy_mn: (originally) > > Vernon doesn't own Grunning's Drill Company. If he did, it would > > be Durlsey's Drill Company. > > -end this part- > Melissa continues: > Are we sure Vernon doesn't own the company? ...edited... > > Melissa, devoted Dursley-hater bboy_mn: If he owned the Drill company then why wouldn't JKR refer to him as the owner of a drill company rather than the Director of a drill company. Could someone from the UK enlighten us about the term 'Director' as it applies to a business person? I'm taking it to be the same as the US title 'manager'. He was the Directory of Sales for Grunning's Drill Company. Her was the Manger of Sales for the Grunning's Drill Company. Certainly, if the had a substantial above management title, JKR would have used it, as in Vice President of Sales for the Grunnings Drill Company. I took 'Director' as Director of Operations, which would be roughly the equivalent of a General Manager. They oversee all aspects of operations and the regular department managers answer to them. Of course, this is a lot of speculation, but if he was the owner, that would be very siginificant and JKR would have mentioned it. Also, although I don't know much about the English economy, Dursley's don't live like he owns a company, that would give him substantial wealth. They live like someone who works in upper management; firmly middle to upper middle class, but not rich. Just a few more thoughts. bboy_mn From judy at judyshapiro.com Mon Jan 27 09:23:34 2003 From: judy at judyshapiro.com (Judy ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:23:34 -0000 Subject: How did Snape see Lupin the night of the Prank? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50747 This question has long intrigued me -- how *did* Snape manage to see Wolf!Lupin? Steve proposed a Barrier Charm: > ... the Shrieking Shack could have > an EXIT barrier charm, that... blocks any > attempts to exit the house..... > if James hadn't > stopped Snape, he could have entered the house. > Once he entered, once > he went past the barrier charm, Snape would > have been trapped in the > house with Wolf!Lupin with no means of escape. This is a very clever theory, but I see a flaw. Lupin says that James put himself in great danger to save Snape. If there were an "exit barrier" charm, with no way at all to get out of the Shack during the full moon, then James would have been in no danger; Wolf!Lupin would have had no way to reach him. Since James didn't go into the Shack that night, he would have been safe the whole time. Still, Steve, I think you are right that we should look for a magical solution. I like the idea of an invisible barrier. Instead of the one-way barrier that you describe, how about a regular (two-way) invisible barrier, that could be opened with an easy spell such as "Alohamora"? We can assume that Wolf!Lupin would be unable to cast spells, and therefore the magic barrier would have contained him effectively. Madame Pomfrey (or whoever) could put up the barrier in the evening. Perhaps even Lupin himself would be the one to do it, while still in human form. In the morning, the barrier would be removed, either by Human!Lupin or someone else. We also can assume that werewolves are powerfully magical and hard for even wizards to defend against. So, Snape's life was in danger because he might have opened the invisible barrier without knowing what was behind it. (Perhaps while Wolf!Lupin was upstairs in the Shack.) James' life was in danger because if Snape opened the barrier, Wolf!Lupin could have gotten into the tunnel and killed him, too. Perhaps James and Snape argued in the tunnel, near the Shack. The sound of human voices might have attracted Wolf!Lupin to the barrier, where Snape could see him. At the time that Sirius drags Ron into the Shack, the barrier wouldn't be there at all, since it would only have been put up when Lupin was confined there. -- Judy From lupinesque at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 09:25:10 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 01:25:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: FILK: Handle With Care Message-ID: <20030127092510.51878.qmail@web20305.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50748 Handle With Care to the tune of the Traveling Wilburys song of the same title (sorry, I cant find an audio link) Dedicated to David RITA SKEETER serenades several members of the Hogwarts community. RITA (to Harry, beckoning him toward a broom cupboard) Come inside and shut the door Journalists youll soon abhor My ink is H2SO4 Handle me with care (to Hagrid) I say I find your Skrewts a blast While I dig into your past Nice "gi"s always finish last Handle me with care SLYTHERINS Were so tired of Harry Potter House Cup, Q Cup, Champion too Take him down a peg, please, Rita dear HERMIONE Its a sin but I just cant help but hate her Is it time to call the exterminator? RITA (to Hermione) Oh, you silly little girl I can give your hair more curl: Ill tell your love life to the world Handle me with care (to Draco) As a team we two are grand We just might get that dingbat canned But while Im sitting in your hand Handle me with care DRACO Ill give you the dirt on Potter Hes deranged, a danger too Have a scoop from Slytherin, Rita dear HERMIONE (clapping Rita into a jar) Trust this pest to have a bug for a daemon Think Ill let you fly away? Well, dream on! RITA (to Hermione) Its not like me to be meek But now your mercy I must seek If Im to stay in glass a week Handle me with care. Amy Z ===== It's better than Malfoy's . . . It's NIMBUS 2003 Florida, July 17-20, 2003 Register at http://www.hp2003.org/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From pen at pensnest.co.uk Mon Jan 27 09:25:13 2003 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:25:13 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: <001801c2c5cf$ebd67dc0$83a242cf@home> Message-ID: <3D21CB92-31D9-11D7-8600-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 50749 My favourite line? Prof Trelawney is talking of how she peered into the Orb..."... and what do you think I saw?" "An ugly old bat in outsize specs?" (Ron, of course.) Pen From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 09:34:35 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:34:35 -0000 Subject: How did Snape see Lupin the night of the Prank? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50750 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Judy " wrote: > This question has long intrigued me -- > how *did* Snape manage to see Wolf!Lupin? > > Steve proposed a Barrier Charm: > > ... the Shrieking Shack could have > > an EXIT barrier charm, that... blocks any > > attempts to exit the house..... > > -end this part > > This is a very clever theory, but I see a flaw. ...eited... > > I like the idea of an invisible barrier. Instead of the > one-way barrier that you describe, how about a regular (two-way) > invisible barrier, that could be opened with an easy spell such as > "Alohamora"? > > ...edited... > > -- Judy bboy_mn: You got it! I think that is the perfect solution. The charm wouldn't have to be anything special, just a standard common barrier charm. I think it's pretty safe to say, that as long as Lupin was a werewolf, he couldn't cast any spells. So HE was trapped until he became a wizard again. Brilliant, I like it. bboy_mn From potter76 at libero.it Mon Jan 27 11:11:43 2003 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 12:11:43 +0100 (ora solare Europa occ.) Subject: [HPforGrownups] How did Snape see Lupin the night of the Prank? References: <20030127005243.91131.qmail@web40507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3E3513EF.000001.69509@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 50751 Maria: Thanks, they helped a lot (and they weren't ramblings, either ). Me: you'e welcome, I've got the 'knight-in shiny-armour"compex and can't help coming to the resce of anyone in distress ^__-! Please, please, please go tell my Prof that I'm able not to ramble when I write, she doesn't believe it! Maria: That does seem to be a good explanation - that the entrance to the Shack was not blocked by an actual door. But I seem to have more of my ramblings on the topic. I really don't see a good reason *not* to install a door. Me: Neither do I, I absolutely agree with you when you say: "Wouldn't it be rather dangerous for Wolf! Lupin to run around in the passage instead of the house? Besides, why have the house if you can just keep the wolf in the passage?" To your 2nd question I would answer that if the passage could be good enough for W!R,well, it would be kind of mean to send Human!Remus to spend hours in a hole underground; it's already so difficult to be a sort of beast part of your life, to have to live some of your hours as one even when in human form it's really depressing! Lupin was led in the SS before his transformation and we don't know how long it took him to turn into a wolf, maybe hours, maybe 1 day, can you imagine how it would feel to be 'buried' nderground for so long? Maria: Ooh, what if there *is* a door, but that particular night (not the Prank, but in PoA) it was open - Padfoot!Sirius probably wouldn't have closed the trapdoor when he was dragging Ron in there Me: Quite possible but it had to be open also on the night of the Prank. Or we might assume that Snape arrived to the trapdoor and while opening it James cames and manages to pull him away but not before Snape manages to catch a glimpse of W!R in the process of opening the door. Maria: Or, maybe the hole is too small for a werewolf? No, doesn't work. If Padfoot a huge dog ("bearlike") was able to get through - and he obviously is at least as big as the werewolf, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to keep him in check - then Lupin would definitely be able to get through the trapdoor. Me: That's what I thought too for a moment and then dismissed the idea for the reason you give. Maria: So, do we stick to the idea that no one saw any need to install a door, and Snape saw Lupin through the open hole, pacing in the room above? Me: I'd say that for lack of evidence this is the best we can get out of canon even though Catlady pointed out something which is quite sensible, on the night of the Prank Snape could see W!R through a opening in the door created by Mad W!R. Others (Steve and Judy) proposed a magical barrier to block the passage but there's nothing to support this view so I pefer to stick to what we can infer from canon, that is, there's no door at the end of the passage. R. From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 11:18:25 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:18:25 -0000 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: <3D21CB92-31D9-11D7-8600-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50752 It's fun reading everyone's favorite lines from the books! Some of the ones already posted are favorites of mine, too. Here's some more of my favorites - I always read these twice while reading the books: "'Aha!' said Harry, 'so there's someone called Nicolas Flamel involved is there?' Hagrid looked furious with himself." [PS/SS] "Out of the corner of his eye he saw the fluttering banner high above, flashing Potter for President over the crowd. His heart skipped. He felt braver." [Harry's thoughts PS/SS] "From inside the crate came ripping noises that sounded to Harry as though the teddy was having his head torn off." [Harry's thoughts PS/SS] "'P for prefect! Get it on, Percy, come on, we're all wearing ours, even Harry got one.' 'I - don't - want -' said Percy thickly, as the twins forced the sweater over his head, knocking his glasses askew. 'And you're not sitting with the prefects today, either,' said George. 'Christmas is a time for family.' They frog-marched Percy from the room, his arms pinned to his side by his sweater." [PS/SS] "...'Here comes Gilbert Wimple; he's with the Committee on Experimental Charms; he's had those horns for a while now...'" [Arther Weasley, GoF] "'So that's a house-elf?' Ron muttered. 'Weird things, aren't they?' 'Dobby was weirder,' said Harry fervently." [GoF] "'He fancies her!' said Ron incredulously, 'Well, if they end up having children, they'll be setting a world record - bet any baby of theirs would weigh about a ton.'" [GoF] "Harry didn't know how to explain what had just happened. He just stood there, looking at the three champions. It struck him how very tall all of them were." [GoF] "'Madame Maxine!' said Fleur at once, striding over to her headmistress. 'Zey are saying zat zis little boy is to compete also!' Somewhere under Harry's numb disbelief he felt a ripple of anger. *Little boy*?" [GoF] "Harry felt a second stab of annoyance. 'It's a sport,' he said shortly. 'Played on broom-' 'All right, all right!' said Uncle Vernon loudly. Harry saw, with some satisfaction, that his uncle looked vaguely panicky. Apparently his nerves couldn't stand the sound of the word 'broomsticks' in his living room." [GoF] "And Moody thought, he Harry, ought to be an Auror! Interesting idea...but somehow, Harry thought, as he got quietly into his four- poster ten minutes later, the egg and the cloak now safely back in his trunk, he thought he'd like to check how scarred the rest of them were before he chose it as a career." [GoF] "He couldn't quite believe he was having this conversation with Viktor Krum, the famous International Quidditch player. It was as though the eighteen-year-old Krum thought he, Harry, was an equal - a real rival -" [GoF] "A week ago, Harry would have said finding a partner for a dance would be a cinch compared to taking on a Hungarian Horntail. But now that he had done the later, and was facing the prospect of asking a girl to the ball, he thought he'd rather have another round with the dragon." [GoF] "This year, however, everyone in the fourth year and above seemed to be staying, and they all seemed to Harry to be obsessed with the coming ball- or at least all the girls were, and it was amazing how many girls Hogwarts suddenly seemed to hold; he had never quite noticed that before. Girls giggling and whispering in the corridors, girls shrieking with laughter as boys passed them, girls excitedly comparing notes on what they were going to wear on Christmas night... 'Why do they have to move in packs?' Harry asked Ron as a dozen or so girls walked past them, sniggering and staring at Harry. 'How're you supposed to get one on their own to ask them?' 'Lasso one?' Ron suggested." [GoF] "Giggling should be made illegal, Harry thought furiously, as all the girls around Cho started doing it." [GoF] "'Right,' said Ron, who looked extremely put out, 'this is getting stupid. Ginny, *you* can go with Harry, and I'll just-' 'I can't,' said Ginny, and she went scarlet, too. 'I'm going with - with Neville. He asked me when Hermione said no, and I thought...well...I'm not going to be able to go otherwise, I'm not in fourth year.' She looked extremely miserable. 'I think I'll go and have dinner.' she said, and she got up and walked off to the portrait hole, her head bowed." [poor Ginny, a 'date' with Harry nearly in her grasp and it was dashed] [GoF] Diana From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no Mon Jan 27 11:19:39 2003 From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:19:39 -0000 Subject: The wizarding world and empire (was Democracy and prejudice) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50753 --- In HPforGrownups, Ebony wrote: > I was with you, agreeing in some points, disagreeing with others, > but pretty much following your theory up until the very end, where > you said: > > --- In HPforGrownups, "manawydan" wrote: > > > Whereas in WW, there does not seem to be any concept of a "3rd > > World", of the legacy of Empire, or of any sort of racial > > dimension. > > > > Or indeed any sort of religious one either. > > > Oh, definitely not. > > I beg to differ strongly with you here. > > If the wizarding world did not mirror the Muggle one in any way... > > ...then why are Dean Thomas and Angelina Johnson named thusly? It is not a given that Dean Thomas' name reflects typical practice in the wizarding world. It has always been my assumption that Dean Thomas is muggleborn (canon doesn't seem to actually say so, but there are indications - being a Westham FC-fan, for instance), and Angelina Johnson may well be so too, as far as I can see. I do not think one can conclude from the names of those two characters that the wizarding world has had the same attitude towards race as the muggle-world, given that they easily both can be muggle-born. They would then represent former (I hope) attitudes towards race in the muggle-world rather than in the wizarding world. Even if they themselves are not muggleborn, the family-names can have come into the wizarding-world by way of marriage in earlier time, or by way of an ancestor being a muggleborn wizard or witch. Best regards Christian Stub? From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 09:11:45 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:11:45 -0000 Subject: Notts/SackingDumbledore/#ofStudents/WizGovt/hippocampus/MagicCity/OwlOrder/.5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50754 (Re: thread "Dumbledore, Snap and Fudge") > "thomas m wall" wrote: > > And now, now he wants us to talk to those violent giants? Isn't it > bad enough that he's got one on the Hogwarts staff? Catlady wrote: I enjoyed your example of ordinary stupid wizarding parents' opinion, but must nitpick this aspect: when Rita Skeeter revealed Hagrid's parentage and he hid in his hut in shame, Dumbledore was bombarded with letters from parents who remembered Hagrid from their own school days, remembered him affectionately enough that their letters were demanding that Dumbledore *keep* him on the job. I write: Ah, Dumbledore *said* that he was bombarded by letters. And, although we know for sure that there are families (like the Malfoys) out there who detest Hagrid, Dumbledore conveniently did not mention the letters he must've received demanding Hagrid's removal. Nor did he mention the proportion between those two. -Tom From rshamim at princeton.edu Mon Jan 27 09:25:48 2003 From: rshamim at princeton.edu (Rehan Shamim ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:25:48 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's new body (WAS: Re: What year was Voldemort born?) In-Reply-To: <106.1edcb826.2b65fea2@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50755 Marcus in Shreveport wondered: >When Wormtail Pettigrew brought him back to life in a new body, >would that body resemble his original body? I think it is a pretty safe assumption that Voldemort's "new" body did indeed resemble his original body. When all the DEs arrive in the graveyard, they do not seem to have any trouble recognizing him. If there is any canon that states that Voldemort had a different appearance, then I suppose that could be used as further evidence supporting MAGIC DISHWASHER. In this case, the only way that that the DEs would be able to tell it was Voldemort is if they knew *in advance* that Voldemort would rise again that night, and were instructed to act surprised. (See the MAGIC DISHWASHER posts for explanations of why the DEs have needed to act surprised.) He then continued: >would that body be the same age as he ought to be, as if he had >continued aging without being "interrupted" by being killed? Would >that body therefore have any of the effects of age, like rheumatism >or arthritis or incontinence? I'm not really sure if you actually wanted to know the answer or were just joking (or possibly a combination of both?). In any case, the image of Voldemort with incontinence was quite amusing. If you were seriously wondering the answer to this question, then I believe that it wouldn't really matter either way. It is true that Voldemort has been separated from his body for 13 or 14 years, which is certainly a considerable portion of the standard muggle life cycle. However, I would venture that this time period is actually only six or seven "wizard" years. Dumbledore is 150, and McGonagall is (in JKR's words) a "spritely 70." Clearly Voldemort, who was about 55 when he lost his powers, and 68 at the end of GoF, is nowhere near approaching the end of his life cycle. So in essence, I would say that even if Voldemort's body is now "aged," he is still in the prime of his life (Around 40 muggle years?) and is in no danger of being affected by old age. Of course, I'd love to hear others' opinions on this. Rehan From renitentraven at hotmail.com Mon Jan 27 09:33:05 2003 From: renitentraven at hotmail.com (Lisa Armstrong ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:33:05 -0000 Subject: Sports and cheating Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50756 DangerMouse wrote : "I've been thinking about magical cheating and it's use in sports." I'm from Australia so I'm not going to pretend to understand your grid-iron references. (If that's even what they were, I'm not sure.) But Quidditch, I follow you there. I have a theory a future Rita Skeeter scoop may shed light on this particular well-hidden Quidditch controversy. All this is (of course), supposition. Early on in his career Ludo Bagman began passing information to the Death-Eaters - not, as we have been led to believe - because of half-formed hopes of a career in the MOM, but because they offered to bury his involvement in the Quidditch/Billywig scandal rocking the wizarding world. Billywigs cause levitation, an excellent advantage on a broom-stick as you no longer have to contend with your broom struggling against the force of gravity. Just lightly hold on to your broom and direct all the excess magical energy into impressive turns, astounding bursts of speed and no-risk Wronsky Feints. Sadly Ludo Bagman forgot the spell that bound his *ahem* rear to his broom, and spectators at a Wimbourne Wasps training session were let in on the secret when Bagman was left in the air after unseating himself after a violent right at a bludger. This abuse may be continuing even today. 'Krum hardly looked as though he was using a broomstick at all; he moved so easily through the air it looked as though he was unsupported and weightless.' GOF pg.99 English p.b. Cheers, Lisa From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 09:42:51 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:42:51 -0000 Subject: Democracy and prejudice In-Reply-To: <000801c2c567$b95d5480$5f4d6551@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50757 Ebony writes: I can't remember if I've got canon evidence for this, or if it's just a gut feeling, but I think that wizards and witches are still subjects of the Queen. Ali writes: In terms of being subjects of the Queen, I think that the answer is yes. I respond: I wonder how taxes, the census, and matters of justice are handled, then? Regarding the justice question, I mean in the sense only of wizard events colliding with the muggle world. I.e.: the catalyst event for Sirius going to Azkaban was the death of muggles. If the MoM is connected to the real British government, do you think they'd (the "real" British gov't) allow a 13-time murderer to go to a wizards prison? Later, Tom (I) wrote: I'm still a little confused about the election process - wouldn't we have heard *something* about an election... Ali responded: Why? The Potterverse is written from Harry's point of view. He has interaction with the MoM, but has probably got little interest in elections. I add: You know, I was thinking about this point, and when was fourteen (Harry's age in GoF), President Clinton was getting elected in the U.S.. I *definitely* knew about that election, whether I was interested in it or not. And I definitely knew about elections that came before that. So, I guess I would say that, if the WW were in any way democratic, we would have had to've heard, at least once, of some kind of election. On this note, in an earlier post (same thread), I asked: "Is there ever, ever, a mention in canon of wizarding elections?" And Catlady responded: Yes. In QTTA, chapter four. Barberus Bragge, Chief of the Wizards' Council, brought a Golden Snidget to a Quidditch match in 1269 and offered 150 Galleons ("equivalent to over a million Galleons today") to the player who caught it. Kind-hearted Modesty Rabnott rescued the poor birdie and Chief Bragge confiscated her house. In a letter to her sister, she wrote: "Chief Bragge would have lost my vote if I'd had one." Some listies have asserted that Modesty's not having a vote means that the franchise was limited to males at that time, but I believe it INSTEAD means that there was a property requirement and Modesty did not own enough wealth to meet it. I respond: Wow, Catlady! That's fantastic research! Okay, so we have one reference, in *all* of canon, to an election. But couldn't that reference be in the same tongue-in- cheek manner that Hermione enchanted a banner to read "Potter for President" during a Quidditch match? I'd also like to offer an alternative to the listies' and Catlady's interpretation of the quote: Couldn't Modesty's "... IF I had one..." [emphasis is my own] quote be interpreted to mean that no-one had a vote? -Tom From risako at nexusanime.com Mon Jan 27 10:25:39 2003 From: risako at nexusanime.com (Melissa McCarthy) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 06:25:39 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dursley's bribed?, charmed? or afraid? and Vernon's position at Grunning's References: Message-ID: <000b01c2c5ee$7113b340$77a794d1@vaio> No: HPFGUIDX 50758 Melissa (me) > > That's certainly plausible, but if the incentive is being withheld > > until Harry completes school, why were the Dursleys so dead-set > > against having him go to Hogwarts? > > bboy_mn: > Sorry, just a bad case of foot-in-mouth syndrom. What I really should > have said, is until Harry comes of age which just happens to coincide > with when he gets out of school. Oh! Sorry about that, I misinterpreted you. > > bboy_mn: (originally) > > > Vernon doesn't own Grunning's Drill Company. If he did, it would > > > be Durlsey's Drill Company. > > > Melissa continues: > > Are we sure Vernon doesn't own the company? ...edited... > > > bboy_mn: > If he owned the Drill company then why wouldn't JKR refer to him as > the owner of a drill company rather than the Director of a drill > company. [edit] > Of course, this is a lot of speculation, but if he was the owner, that > would be very siginificant and JKR would have mentioned it. Also, > although I don't know much about the English economy, Dursley's don't > live like he owns a company, that would give him substantial wealth. > They live like someone who works in upper management; firmly middle to > upper middle class, but not rich. Somehow I got the impression from the books (although I have no proof of this and am perfectly willing to be proven wrong!) that he did own the company. I think it's partly that, as someone mentioned, Dudley seems to be an "early adopter" of a lot of expensive technological gadgets, and partly that I'm told the cost of living in England is a fair bit higher than it is here in Canada. For a woman like Petunia to have everything she wants (PS/SS chapter 1) must also take a heck of a lot of money! Now that I think of it, though, it is more likely that he's in upper management. Melissa, trying to sift her impressions of things from the facts From sally at gristiegraphics.co.uk Mon Jan 27 11:13:35 2003 From: sally at gristiegraphics.co.uk (sallygrist ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:13:35 -0000 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50759 > > What are your favorites? I had to add a few of my own, many of which make me laugh out loud, so much so that I've stopped reading the books on the train now as I inevitably just end up embarrassing myself ! GoF: Weasley's Wizard Wheezes 'I *shudder* to think what the state of my in-tray would be if I was away from work for five days'. 'Yeah, someone might slip dragon dung in it again, eh, Perce?' said Fred. 'That was a sample of fertiliser from Norway!' said Percy, going very red in the face. 'It was nothing *personal*!' 'It was,' Fred whispered to Harrry, as they got up from the table. 'We sent it.' GoF: The Unexpected Task "A week ago, Harry would have said finding a partner for a dance would be a cinch compared to taking on a Hungarian Horntail. But now that he had done the later, and was facing the prospect of asking a girl to the ball, he thought he'd rather have another round with the Horntail." GoF: The Unexpected Task" And he went back over to Ron feeling that this ball was a lot more trouble than it was worth, and hoping very much that Padma Patil's nose was dead centre." CoS: Guideroy Lockhart "Unable to see what he was doing, Ron accidentally squashed his beetle with his elbow and had to ask for a new one. Professor McGonagall wasn't pleased" CoS: The Deathday Party "Warlock D.J. PRod of Didsburys says: 'My wife used to sneer at my feeble charms but one month into your fabulous Kwikspell course I succeeded in turning her into a yak! Thank you, Kwikspell!' Presumably he never bothered to turn her back again?? And finally one from which the source escapes me, concerning Neville in Transfiguration class, who'd inadvertantly transplanted his ears onto a cactus, much to the annoyance of Professor McGonagall. Can't find the quote but it makes me laugh every time. Sally From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 11:23:03 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:23:03 -0000 Subject: How did Snape see Lupin the night of the Prank? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50760 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve " wrote: > --- "Judy " wrote: > > > > I like the idea of an invisible barrier. Instead of the > > one-way barrier that you describe, how about a regular (two-way) > > invisible barrier, that could be opened with an easy spell such as > > "Alohamora"? > > > > ...edited... > > > > -- Judy > bboy_mn replied: > > You got it! I think that is the perfect solution. The charm wouldn't > have to be anything special, just a standard common barrier charm. I > think it's pretty safe to say, that as long as Lupin was a werewolf, > he couldn't cast any spells. So HE was trapped until he became a > wizard again. Brilliant, I like it. Finwitch: Yes, an easy spell that wizard-Remus would cast, easy enough for him to know before Hogwarts. Alohomora would do the trick all right. Whomping Willow was planted there to block away any overly curious students. His howls gave the haunted-house reputation to the Shrieking Shack etc. The Forbidden Forest gained the werewolf-legend due to Moony, Padfoot, Prongs and Wormtail, I suppose - unless there were _other_ werewolves (who knows?). Snape learned of how to pass Whomping Willow from Sirius (who just _might_ have been telling Wormtail about it...) Say.. "How'd _he_ pass the WW?" (After all, the little rat had opened the passage for them so he had no idea how Remus did that) "All he'd have to do was to press the knot with a stick.." (Sirius talking, Snape hears him - Sirius notices Snape just a bit too late. He then seeks James' councel - James goes in to save Snape... Also, Snape knew that Black was talking to _someone_ about the passing the Whomping Willow. Assuming that someone was Potter, he then blamed the two of them. It was either Pettigrew's trick against Snape, or simply an accident that Snape heard them. Dumbledore took the accident-explanation - so James is rewarded for saving Snape's life and no penalties for the Gryffindors. (Who probably regretted their open talking as it was, Sirius in particular). Perhaps James Potter had learned a make-the-one-owing-you-his-life-do- something (Keeping Remus' Secret). Snape believes that James plotted the whole thing, he's given the kids information about werewolves, wishing that someone would make it out - he never told anyone between leaving Hogwarts and being employed there. This thing works this way, I believe: The creditor of Life-debt can cast one obligation that would be magically binding unless the one in debt manages to pay up. This obligation can be changed under certain rules. If the creditor dies, the latest obligation remains permanent so long as the life-debtor lives. If James Potter placed the first obligation on Snape as 'keep Remus' secret' changed it later to 'Fight against Voldemort' - Snape would definately be against Voldemort. It might be that Harry can make Pettigrew take a stand for Sirius using this method, but he hasn't learned how yet. -- Finwitch From amani at charter.net Mon Jan 27 11:56:28 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 06:56:28 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A theory regarding the "innocence" of Sirius Black and the Redemption of Peter References: Message-ID: <000e01c2c5fb$20072ec0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50761 Webba: Hi! I am painstakingly researching possible signs of redemption for Peter for the roundtable I am *hoping* is accepted for Nimbus. In my reading, I have discovered a couple of things and would like to pose a theory. Bear with me, as perhaps I am making no sense...this is merely a stab in the dark. Me: Well, don't mind me if I get a little protective. After all, you are trying to save a character I greatly dislike and set up my favorite character for evilness. ^_~ Webba: It should be apparent to all of us by now that JKR chooses her words and dialogue carefully. Things are rarely black and white with her. Things that appear mundane to us at first become crystal clear later on, which leads me to ponder this quote by professor Trelawney in PoA: quote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- The Dark Lord lies alone and friendless, abandoned by his followers. His servant has been chained these twelve years. Tonight before midnight...will break free and set out to rejoin his master... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Does it seem odd to anyone else that the word "chained" is written here? Wormtail was never chained in the truest sense of the word. Is it meant to be symbolic? However, one other person was chained, and that was Sirius Black. Yes, Wormtail did "break free" before midnight but one other person broke free as well--Sirius Black. When Harry and Hermione used the Time-Turner, they went back several hours and managed to save Sirius. When they get back into the hospital wing it isfive minutes to midnight. In other words, two people "chained"--one literally and one not broke free. Me: Why shouldn't it be symbolic? Classic seers never seem to speak in exactly literal terms. And /was/ Sirius actually literally /chained/? It seemed that the only thing keeping the prisoners in Azkaban was the Dementors. Sirius was able to escape without the trouble of chains (and I doubt his Animagus form was smaller so as to slip through any shackles). Webba: There may be arguments that Wormtail remained as a rat to spy for Lord V., but he had no idea when or if the Dark Lord would rise again- -to everyone it seemed as if The Dark Lord was dead and gone forever. Given that canonic portrayal of our beloved rat lends itself to the idea that Peter attatched himself to anyone who could protect him, I have a hard time believing that Peter would willingly try and tie himself to a person who held no power whatsoever for several years. Even if there were people upset that Wormtail had let down the side of darkness, they were either in Azkaban or dead. And with public opinion and the testimony of Muggles being what it was, I could totally see Wormtail being able to defend himself successfully against Black based on the outward appearances of the crime. Perhaps he remained a rat because he was afraid he'd be murdered by people like Lucius Malfoy who put on such prompt appearances...or he was a spy for the side of the good. Me: But there were /other/ people he might get in trouble with. For example, DE's. It'd be easy to accuse him of causing Voldemort's fall. I'd be seriously worried about my life, too. Webba: Later in PoA, Dumbledore states to Harry and Hermione that he himself testified before the ministry: quote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- I myself gave evidence to the Ministry that Sirius had been the Potters' Secret Keeper--PoA pg. 392 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Why does he say this? If indeed the plan to change Secret-Keepers from Sirius to Peter were indeed true, as Sirius insists it was, why wouldn't Dumbledore say that it was Peter? Why would he still be saying it was "Sirius?" Didn't Dumbledore himself perform the Fidelius charm? I would think he'd know who he performed it on. Me: I had the feeling that Sirius switched over by some other method. Didn't he say he did it without telling anyone? Dumbledore gave evidence against Sirius because he /believed Sirius had committed the crime/. If he /did/ perform the Fidelius charm (which I can't recall right at the moment), then he did it on /Sirius/. He had every reason to believe Sirius was a spy for Voldemort. Webba: Dumbledore also states to Harry and Hermione that "two innocent lives can be saved tonight." He never says Black specifically.... Me: But Peter didn't /need/ saving at this point. He was already long gone. Webba: Now obviously Wormtail is indebted to the Dark Lord in some way, or is there out of sheer cowardice or whatever you wish to call it, but I seriously (no pun intended) suspect there's more to Sirius Black than meets the eye. He's remembered as laughing when the Ministry caught up with him. He's laughing at the sight in front of him-- Pettigrew's bloodied robes and all... Me: Certainly it was one of the red herrings we got along the way. But think about it--Sirius has, in his eyes, caused the death of two of his greatest friends by switching Secret-Keepers with the one pathetic man who no one would suspect--including himself. Oh, the irony. The man is in /hysterics/. Webba: After all this research, I find myself not wholly convinced that Sirius Black is as innocent as he seems to be at the end of PoA. Wormtail's no paragon of virtue, either, but something about Sirius doesn't sit well with me. I can't put my finger on it though. Me: *sniffles and snugs her Sirius tight* --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 11:57:21 2003 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana Lucas) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 03:57:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cheating in Quidditch & movie contamination In-Reply-To: <1043656086.1191.84904.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030127115721.14295.qmail@web40205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50762 DM wrote: >>>I'm watching the superbowl with my family right now (actually it's a commercial break) and I was thinking about magical cheating and it's use in sports. Dumbledore is able to slow Harry's fall to the ground in PoA, and, in CoS, the rogue bludger is destroyed by Finite Incantatem. In SS, Quirrel jinxes Harry's broom... In Quidditch games, at least at Hogwarts, it is clear that there are no charms that prevent the use of magic (other than brooms). What about at official league games? Sound amplification charms work, but curses? I'm curious if anyone's ever tried to curse someone off their brooms there... It leads to interesting thoughts.<<< Now me: The rogue bludger was wrestled back into it's box by Fred and George Weasley in the book. It was only in the movie that the rogue bludger was destroyed by Hermione. That aside, to address the point of your post, Quidditch does have rules against using magic for or against the teams - breaking those rules results in a foul being called and a chance for a goal to be made by the team that had been fouled. I read the "Quidditch Through The Ages Book" written by JK Rowling for a charity fund-raiser and it does state that using magic for or against any of the players is against the rules. I would imagine that even a small crowd, let alone a stadium full, of wizards and witches would be able to tell if magic was being used during a Quidditch match. I think the use of magic during Quidditch games to influence the game at the point in time of these books would be considered dishonorable - like the Red Sox throwing that baseball game way back when. There probably aren't charms to prevent it, but I bet it occurs very, very rarely, if at all. Every society has accepted codes of behavior that all members of that society adhere to and I could see keeping your magic to yourself while watching the most popular wizard sport ever as one of those codes of conduct nearly all adhere to. As for wizards influencing Muggle games for their own profit - I suppose it is possible, but so many wizards are portrayed as not wanting to participate much in the Muggle world at all unless they can't help it. It would have to be an odd sort of wizard to get into Muggle sports enough to be able to figure out how and where to bet on the games and then change the games to match what how they'd bet. I think the Death Eaters' antics at the Quidditch World Cup, as you cited, is precisely the problems that would occur if wizards en masse decided to declare their existence to and, more specifically, dominance over Muggles. It is mentioned several times in all the books that during Voldemort's rise to power, the WW grew more and more afraid that Voldemort's many murders and acts of terror would reveal the existence of the entire WW to the Muggles. As I understood it, Voldemort and his followers didn't care if the Muggles found out about their world - since they regarded Muggles as little more than toys they could play with when they felt like it anyway. Note to everyone, if you haven't picked up these two books - "Quidditch Through the Ages" and "Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them" - you should do so as soon as possible! They really add lots of background info to the HP books. And the "Beasts" book is very funny as Harry's 'hand-written' notes are reproduced inside the book as well. :) Diana __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From lupinesque at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 12:16:41 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 12:16:41 -0000 Subject: The wizarding world and empire (was Democracy and prejudice) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50763 Christian wrote: > It is not a given that Dean Thomas' name reflects typical practice in > the wizarding world. It has always been my assumption that Dean > Thomas is muggleborn (canon doesn't seem to actually say so, but > there are indications - being a Westham FC-fan, for instance), and > Angelina Johnson may well be so too, as far as I can see. I do not > think one can conclude from the names of those two characters that > the wizarding world has had the same attitude towards race as the > muggle-world, given that they easily both can be muggle-born. Good point on Dean. His Muggle-born status is not explicit, but it's strongly suggested by the football poster, his failure to grasp the rules, or lack thereof, of Quidditch ("red card!"--though he could be deliberately importing a football term), and his ignorance of Grims. Angelina's parentage resides purely in the realm of speculation, though. And I agree with Ebony in a larger sense. If someone wanted to create a world in which colonialism had never held sway--if that were a deliberate part of her vision--then she would think about that and indicate it with details such as African names. This is a part of the world-creation that underlies good scifi and fantasy. For example, Ursula LeGuin, a world-creator of Tolkienian proportions, imagined a anarchist/communist culture (Anarres) in her _The Dispossessed_. The Anarresti's complete rejection of private property shows up not just in their structures of (non)government, commerce, etc., but in small touches like their infrequent use of possessive pronouns (a woman says to her daughter, not "where's your hat?" but "where's the hat?"). She thought it through: in a world where private property is abhorred, how would language differ? JKR does this kind of thing when she wants to: for example, she mentions parchment and quills and torches to convey her conceit that the WW has maintained much more of medieval life than has the Muggle world. In short, she has the required attention to detail to get across the idea of a history apart from colonialism, if that idea were a part of her vision of the WW. It's not there (yet, anyway), so I doubt that wizard immunity from the mass deportations of the slave trade (e.g.) appears in the notorious backstory notebooks. Though it could be that she *does* have an idealized view of WW history and just hasn't thought through how that would play out in such things as 20th-century characters' surnames. Amy Z From ksnidget at aol.com Mon Jan 27 12:21:51 2003 From: ksnidget at aol.com (ksnidget at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 07:21:51 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] A theory regarding the "innocence" of Sirius Black and th... Message-ID: <3a.335fd1a4.2b667e5f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50764 In a message dated 1/27/03 6:57:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, amani at charter.net writes: > I had the feeling that Sirius switched over by some other method. Didn't he > say he did it without telling anyone? Dumbledore gave evidence against > Sirius because he /believed Sirius had committed the crime/. If he /did/ > perform the Fidelius charm (which I can't recall right at the moment), then > he did it on /Sirius/. He had every reason to believe Sirius was a spy for > Voldemort. Dumbledore offered to be the Secret Keeper rather than Sirius because he suspected there was a spy close to James. But there wasn't anything that said Dumbledore cast the spell. How I read it was that they had had a talk/meeting and during that meeting who would be the Secret Keeper was discussed. No clear idea of who was at the meeting and it may have been just James and Dumbledore. The last time Dumbledore was told anything Sirius was the person who was going to be the Secret Keeper. Some time after that Sirius persuaded James to use Peter instead. I suspect that the Fidelius charm is cast by the person who needs to be hidden and the only people there are the one(s) to be hidden and the Secret Keeper. That way there are fewer people involved in the whole thing. To me that makes more sense than having someone not involved in the spell casting it. The fewer people involved the better. K. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hp at plum.cream.org Mon Jan 27 12:30:05 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 12:30:05 -0000 Subject: Dean Thomas (The wizarding world and empire) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50765 Christian Stub? wrote: > It is not a given that Dean Thomas' name reflects typical practice > in the wizarding world. It has always been my assumption that Dean > Thomas is muggleborn (canon doesn't seem to actually say so, but > there are indications - being a Westham FC-fan, for instance), uh-oh. Favourite rarely-discussed topic alert! :-) All we know about Dean's background is that "like Harry, he had grown up with Muggles" (CoS Ch. 14, "Cornelius Fudge", p. 187 UK Ed.). Note that it's NOT "like Hermione, he was Muggle-born". I have a pet theory that Dean Thomas's birth name was Dean Lestrange. I find it interesting that Dean is the ONLY one of Harry's classmates whose family background has not been described (and indeed one of the few whose parents we've not met or read about) to date. I can't fail to deduce that in best JKR fashion, this is therefore meaningful. Given JKR's penchant for parallelism, we'd have him juxtaposed with Neville (son of "bad" parents in prison -v- son of "good" parents in hospital, plus the obvious element of the Lestranges being responsible for the Longbottoms being where they are). Also, we'd have a parallel with Harry: as Harry was sent off to Muggle relatives to save him from the magical community's adulation, Dean was sent off to be looked after by Muggles (an orphanage?) to save him from attack. I am also curious about Dean's artistic talents which we have reason to have described to us in each of the books. Again, I can't help but wonder that these will become significant in some way. > and > Angelina Johnson may well be so too, as far as I can see. I do not > think one can conclude from the names of those two characters that > the wizarding world has had the same attitude towards race as the > muggle-world, given that they easily both can be muggle-born. They > would then represent former (I hope) attitudes towards race in the > muggle-world rather than in the wizarding world. Even if they > themselves are not muggleborn, the family-names can have come into > the wizarding-world by way of marriage in earlier time, or by way > of an ancestor being a muggleborn wizard or witch. Back to the subject at hand: I agree with Christian and I don't really see why Dean and Angelina having Western names indicate the magical community's racial prejudice; on the contrary, the magical community appears to be quite colour-blind. They do, of course, have their pure-blood/Muggle-born prejudices, but that's something different. There could be miriad reasons for Dean's and Angelina's names, and black people have come to England for loads of reasons. Their ancestors could have changed their names at any point and it's not necessarily the case that they came to the UK from the Caribbean or the USA. They could have come here directly from Africa (yes, perhaps as slaves) and been given "Christian" names by missionaries. I'm not really sure what point Ebony is trying to make WRT England's colonial past. To say the non-white Hogwarts students come from places previously colonised by England is a bit simplistic - England had relations of one sort or another with every continent, and people from all over the world have been settling in the UK for many generations. That some of them would have been wizards and witches only stands to reason. A considerable number of immigrants to this country came here to escape persecution. In that respect, it could be the case that England was known to have a well-organised concealed magical community and was a good place to escape local perscution (despite English Muggles not being particularly nice to magical folk either!) , but then that's been the case with most of the waves of immigrants who've come here. It's perhaps interesting that this whole topic takes up lots of space in the real-world UK media right now, with a major inlflux of Arabic and East European immigrants causing major divisions in opinion. Yes, whilst there are sections of the population who don't welcome these folk, by and large we're pretty tolerant of them and despite the more rabid outbursts from some of the tabloids, most people don't have objections. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, making a re-appearance after a long absence due in part to a literally blown-up computer... From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no Mon Jan 27 12:34:30 2003 From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 12:34:30 -0000 Subject: Democracy and prejudice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50766 --- In HPforGrownups, Tom Wall wrote: [snip] > Regarding the justice question, I mean in the sense > only of wizard events colliding with the muggle world. > I.e.: the catalyst event for Sirius going to Azkaban > was the death of muggles. If the MoM is connected to > the real British government, do you think they'd (the > "real" British gov't) allow a 13-time murderer to go > to a wizards prison? I would suspect that if they were aware of conditions at Azkaban, they would not, out of humanitarian reasons. But was not the story given the muggles at the time that it was a gas-explosion, with Fudge only informing the muggles that Black was a murderer after he escaped? [snip] > I add: > You know, I was thinking about this point, and when > was fourteen (Harry's age in GoF), President Clinton > was getting elected in the U.S.. I *definitely* knew > about that election, whether I was interested in it > or not. And I definitely knew about elections that came > before that. > > So, I guess I would say that, if the WW were in any > way democratic, we would have had to've heard, at > least once, of some kind of election. Provided that there has been an election in the wizarding-world in the period described in the books. If I recall correctly, the normal length of a parliamentary term in Great Britain is five years, although the government may choose to call for a general election sooner than that. A general election also elects the whole Parliament in one go (rather than the US system, where I believe they have an election for Congress-members every second year), and there are, as far as I know, no national-level direct elections to political office, so there will be no large elections between the general elections. So, if the wizarding Britain has a similar system, and there were a general election in the wizarding world in September the year before Harry went to Hogwarts, then there wouldn't need to be a general election again until September in Harry's fifth year, i.e. during OotP. Of course, it is quite possible that the wizarding world is controlled by, say, a House of Gentlemen, the members of which hold property, and whose families have held the same property for a given number of generations - so no real elections, but a wizard can work on raising his family to gentry-status, though it will take a few generations, and get a political influence. [snip] > I'd also like to offer an alternative to the listies' and > Catlady's interpretation of the quote: > > Couldn't Modesty's "... IF I had one..." [emphasis > is my own] quote be interpreted to mean that no-one > had a vote? I do think that she must know of the concept of vote from somewhere - meaning that somebody would need to have a vote, in order for her to make a note that she has none. Best regards Christian Stub? From lupinesque at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 13:07:27 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 13:07:27 -0000 Subject: Cheating in Quidditch In-Reply-To: <20030127115721.14295.qmail@web40205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50767 Diana wrote: > I think the use of magic during Quidditch games to > influence the game at the point in time of these books > would be considered dishonorable - like the Red Sox > throwing that baseball game way back when. It was the White Sox, not the Red Sox. This is totally OT, but I just couldn't let a slander like that stand, even an unintentional one. The poor Red Sox have suffered enough. ;-) Let's see--I'd better add something canonical. Right, charms at Quidditch games. I would imagine that if there are actually charms in place that make it impossible to do magic (besides flying) on the field (as opposed to just penalizing it with fouls), the ref is exempt. One might want a similar exemption in place for the announcer, otherwise the crowd would get into an arms race for which side could drown out the other with the more powerful magical megaphones/Sonorus Charms. As for Dumbledore being able to do magic, he too can be trusted not to use his magic to sway the outcome of a game (unlike McGonagall, who might give in to temptation ), and besides, even if there were a damper preventing Quidditch-relevant charms like slowing a player's fall, the greatest wizard of the age might well be able to do it anyway. The fact that Dobby could not only do magic that would work during a Quidditch match, but charm an already magical object to do something against its nature, is another example of house-elves' powerful magic. Amy From robgonz0 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 13:13:34 2003 From: robgonz0 at yahoo.com (Robert Gonzalez) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 07:13:34 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is a Squib a Muggle? References: Message-ID: <003101c2c605$e5b3d7e0$32951c18@satx.rr.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50768 From: harriet_lupin I think that squibs are witches and wizards with possibly 'dormant' magical abilities. I guess a muggle can be born from a wizard and a witch but I don't really think that that's what a squib is. I don't think Filch is a muggle, for example. me: In general the difference between a squib and a muggle is that a muggle has no or limited prior knowledge of the WW, whereas a squib is a child from a wizarding family who probably has extensive knowledge of the WW. I'm sure there are grey areas but that's what happens when you try to categorize and generalize people. Rob [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Mon Jan 27 13:25:04 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 13:25:04 -0000 Subject: Love Potions in our future? In-Reply-To: <20030127015222.19905.qmail@web13907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50769 SnapesSlytherin: > > > > We have been introduced at least three times to Love > > Potions. Could that > > perhaps be a tactic in Voldemort's new war? Use > > Love Potions and Veela and > > simliar things to enchant the good guys? Heaven > > knows that would give them a > > great advantage.....Any thoughts? > > > > ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ Amber: > > I sometimes wonder about love charms, personally. > James Potter's wand was good for transfiguration, and > he became an animagus. Lilly Potter's wand was good > for charms...so what was her big trick? Maybe she put > a love charm on Snape and that's why he turned spy for > Dumbledore, to protect her? But why did Voldemort not > want to kill her? She was a "mudblood", after all. > You'd think he wouldn't have given her a chance to > step aside. But he did. Maybe her charms work had > something to do with that? > Hmmm, I hadn't paid much attention to the mentioning of love potions before but now you've got me wondering. My guess is that they arent going be significant in a Voldemort "With this I will RULE the World" plan, however, I can see them coming in as a tangential plot point and exacerbating the main plot. For example, we're told that Ginny will have more of a role in the next book. What if, frustrated that Harry still doesn't *see* her as a girl, she gets inspired by her mother's story (did her mum ever use the potion?) and decides to concoct a love potion of her own. Complications would then arise from either a 'botched' potion or a situation where it is imbibed by the wrong person(s). Erica From bobafett at harbornet.com Mon Jan 27 08:12:44 2003 From: bobafett at harbornet.com (BoBaFeTT) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 00:12:44 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What pet would you want? References: <3Y5ZPKE0E9YUPKWU4141PJIB072XUS.3e34df1f@tk> Message-ID: <000601c2c5db$df59a8e0$83a242cf@home> No: HPFGUIDX 50770 If it was me and I was there I would consult hagrid about it before choosing ;) Perhaps he could make me something like the Blast-end-skrewt but not so big and crazy ;) BoBaFeTT [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bobafett at harbornet.com Mon Jan 27 08:16:20 2003 From: bobafett at harbornet.com (BoBaFeTT) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 00:16:20 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dursley's bribed?, charmed? or afraid? References: <20030127004540.57664.qmail@web11703.mail.yahoo.com> <00bc01c2c5b4$50530b40$0101a8c0@pavilion> Message-ID: <001101c2c5dc$60128a60$83a242cf@home> No: HPFGUIDX 50771 >Shunique writes: >I agree with you that it is likely that the Dursleys >have gotten something out of this horrible deal. But >another question I had was why does Dumbledore make >Harry endure the Dursleys hatred. me: Perhaps the mysterious letter thats not mentioned after its left with harry as a baby on the doorstep has something to do with the treatment of him. Perhaps dumbledore knows they would treat him like that and later on when Harry had to make the "choice" between good and evil as Dumbledore talks about several times in the book's it will help him make the right choice. Perhaps the letter told them how famous he would be and that spurned the Dursleys to resent him. All of this being part of Dumbledores master plan, as he seems to know everything before it happens. BoBaFeTT [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 12:40:59 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 12:40:59 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and Grindelwald (WAS: What year was Voldemort born?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50772 This discussion on Voldemort's age has brought something to mind, however, before I can get to the meat of the post, I've got a few quotes to lay down first: 1)From this thread, Tanya wrote: "That makes Tom 16 in 1943 and born in 1927." 2) From canon: "Dumbledore is particularly famous for his defeat of the dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945." (PS/SS 103) 3) From an older thread ("How old is Voldemort - two different ages given!"), Sushi wrote: "Tom would have left school about the time Grindelwald was defeated, in 1945." 4) From canon: Then [Riddle] waved the wand once, and the letters of his name rearranged themselves: I AM LORD VOLDEMORT "You see?" [Riddle] whispered. "It was a name I was already using at Hogwarts, to my most intimate friends only, of course... ...a name I knew wizards everywhere would one day fear to speak... " (CoS 314) 5) And from canon again: "He [Riddle] disappeared after leaving the school... traveled far and wide... sank so deeply into the Dark Arts, consorted with the very worst of our kind, underwent so many dangerous, magical transformations, that when he resurfaced as Lord Voldemort, he was barely recognizable. Hardly anyone connected Voldemort with the clever, handsome boy who was once Head Boy here." (CoS 329) Okay. That's all of the quotations, for now, and I think that they paint an interesting picture. I'll take them out of order, though: >From quote 4 we know that Riddle was already using the name "Voldemort" to his most intimate friends. And we know that the reason he had selected this name is because he had ambitions to one day be "the greatest sorceror in the world (ibid quote 4.) We also know from canon that Dumbledore mistrusted Riddle while he was a student. In the Chamber of Secrets, Riddle says to Harry: "Yes, I think Dumbledore might have guessed... Dumbledore never seemed to like me as much as the other teachers did..." (CoS 312) So, if Riddle was already using the name "Voldemort" to his close buddies, does it stand to reason that Dumbledore might have somehow stumbled across that bit of information? I mean, we know how students talk. Granted, some students were able to maintain secrets from Dumbledore (i.e., the Marauders and their animagical transformations) for quite a while. But still... Now, okay, he leaves Hogwarts, having left the Chamber of Secrets closed for his remaining years. Let's go to quote 5. "He disappeared after leaving the school..." I'm okay with that, except: how does Dumbledore know what somes next? The whole "traveled far and wide... sank so deeply into the Dark Arts, consorted with the very worst of our kind..." bit. How does Dumbledore know what Tom Riddle was doing, if Riddle "disappeared?" Quote 3: "Tom would have left school about the time Grindelwald was defeated, in 1945." -Sushi Exactly. Does it stand to reason that Dumbledore would know this stuff *because* he defeated Grindelwald? Was Riddle/Voldemort perhaps connected with Grindelwald? In other words, did Dumbledore encounter Riddle/Voldemort somehow in connection with his battle with Grindelwald? I mean, where exactly does someone learn the Dark Arts, anyways? One would presume that someone should be taught. So, who does the teaching? Dumbledore did say that Riddle "consorted with the very worst of our kind." Perhaps he means that Grindelwald was among that number. I think that there must be a connection between Voldemort and Grindelwald that we haven't been made privy to, as of yet. I'll submit that Voldemort must be the inheritor of Grindelwald's legacy and work, that he left Hogwarts and searched for Grindelwald, who must've had enough of a name in order for Dumbledore to search him out. Riddle ultimately found him, if only for a brief period of time before Dumbledore defeated him (Grindelwald.) At that point, I'll submit that Voldemort, using Grindelwald's, uhh, resources, went further in his study and research until he re-emerged circa 1970. We know that he emerged around then because in PS/SS, Dumbledore says that they've had "precious little to celebrate for 11 years," (PS/SS 10) and that is when they're dropping Harry off at the Dursley's on November 1st, 1981. So, around 1970, Voldemort resurfaced and proceeded to acquire power and followers, until his untimely demise during his attempt on Harry's life. Still, I'd like to know more about Grindelwald. The timeline is too convenient. AND, as I pointed out in an earlier post, the name "Riddle" can be found in the name "Grindlewald," which seemed suspicious before, and seems doubly so now, after taking a closer look at the chronography. -Tom From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 13:11:06 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 13:11:06 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and Slytherin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50773 "Slytherin, according to the legend, sealed the Chamber of Secrets so that none would be able to open it until his own true heir arrived at the school." Professor Binns (CoS 151) Does anyone have any idea why Slytherin's descendants weren't watched with the utmost scrutiny? Obviously, the rumor of the Chamber of Secrets was enough to cause many wizards and witches to search for its location in the school. In other words, they took it seriously enough to believe it might be there. So, if they took it seriously enough to entertain notions of its existence, how come they didn't take it seriously enough to trace Slytherin's lineage through to the present day? After all, Riddle's mother would have also been a descendent of Slytherin. In fact, there were probably tons of descendents of Salazar Slytherin. There are any number of generations between Slytherin and Riddle. And the likelihood of there being a single-to- single family tree is pretty minimal, I mean, one-to-one all the way down *is* a fairly rare occurance. And although we don't know this as fact, we must assume that some, if not all of them attended Hogwarts. So with all of those generations of little Slytherins bouncing around, why was Riddle the only one to open the Chamber of Secrets? I can only settle on three solutions: 1) Slytherin's descendents didn't attend Hogwarts until Riddle did (this seems totally ridiculous to me.) 2) The other descendents didn't figure out that they were Slytherin's heirs (this also seems silly to me.) 2) Riddle was the only one who was a Parselmouth, since that's supposed to be a very rare ability, so it's possible that none of the other descendents possessed the skill. I like three the most, but it still doesn't settle well. All the same, it just seems, well, *irresponsible* to not follow all of Slytherin's descendents very closely, particularly if they attended Hogwarts, knowing that there was a potential for said 'heir' to unleash evil upon the school. -Tom From camdenandmo at earthlink.net Mon Jan 27 13:30:51 2003 From: camdenandmo at earthlink.net (W. Ken Styles-McCracken) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 07:30:51 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8DB8D2E0-31FB-11D7-9B8D-000393B4D5C6@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 50774 On Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 08:57 PM, aquariajade wrote: > > What are your favorites? > > Me: > > "...I will allow you to perform an essential task for me, one that many of my followers would give their right hands to perform..." Stacie- who has yet to master the very difficult task of signing her post > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary > material from posts to which you're replying! > > Is your message... > An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to > HPFGU-Announcements. > Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. > Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. > None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. > Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- > mods at hpfgu.org.uk > > Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Stacie Styles 6115 Highway 493 Meridian, MS 39305 camdenandmo at earthlink.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Mon Jan 27 15:11:27 2003 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 15:11:27 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50775 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall " wrote: > "Slytherin, according to the legend, sealed the Chamber of Secrets so > that none would be able to open it until his own true heir arrived at > the school." Professor Binns (CoS 151) > > Does anyone have any idea why Slytherin's descendants weren't watched > with the utmost scrutiny? > > Obviously, the rumor of the Chamber of Secrets was enough to cause > many wizards and witches to search for its location in the school. > In other words, they took it seriously enough to believe it might be > there. So, if they took it seriously enough to entertain notions of > its existence, how come they didn't take it seriously enough to trace > Slytherin's lineage through to the present day? > > After all, Riddle's mother would have also been a descendent of > Slytherin. In fact, there were probably tons of descendents of > Salazar Slytherin. There are any number of generations between > Slytherin and Riddle. And the likelihood of there being a single-to- > single family tree is pretty minimal, I mean, one-to-one all the way > down *is* a fairly rare occurance. And although we don't know this as > fact, we must assume that some, if not all of them attended Hogwarts. > > So with all of those generations of little Slytherins bouncing > around, why was Riddle the only one to open the Chamber of Secrets? > > I can only settle on three solutions: > > 1) Slytherin's descendents didn't attend Hogwarts until Riddle did > (this seems totally ridiculous to me.) > 2) The other descendents didn't figure out that they were Slytherin's > heirs (this also seems silly to me.) > 2) Riddle was the only one who was a Parselmouth, since that's > supposed to be a very rare ability, so it's possible that none of the > other descendents possessed the skill. > > I like three the most, but it still doesn't settle well. > > All the same, it just seems, well, *irresponsible* to not follow all > of Slytherin's descendents very closely, particularly if they > attended Hogwarts, knowing that there was a potential for said 'heir' > to unleash evil upon the school. > > -Tom You raise some very interesting points. Maybe Slytherin's descendants WERE watched and maybe even banned from attending Hogwarts? It would be interesting to learn if Riddle's mother attended Hogwarts. Riddle could have slipped in under the radar. He was half-Muggle. His mother died during or shortly after his birth and he was placed in an orphanage. If his grandfather, Marvolo, harbored the same anti-Muggle sentiments as Slytherin, then it would only follow that Riddle's mother did not tell him of her relationship with Tom Riddle Sr or that she was pregnant with a half-Muggle child. Who knows, maybe Marvolo, ummm, magically helped his daughter "off the mortal coil" when she gave birth to Riddle Jr. Again, you raised very, very interesting points. Milz From gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 15:26:56 2003 From: gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com (gingersnape1966 ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 15:26:56 -0000 Subject: Fourth Man Avery & Fourth Man Nott (TBAY) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50776 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amy_marblefeet " wrote: > > > I would like to add some things, myself, on the similarities between > the characters of Neville and Nott. > snip > > To begin I would like to make unknown!Nott a girl in Ravenclaw purely > to reflect her with Neville (and because I am an incurable romantic) > and call her Alison purely for ease. > Me: I've been calling her Agnes, but what the heck! I am assuming Ravenclaw as they have no classes with them and would not have met yet. I say she, but it could be he. She just has some great potential. I figured perhaps they haven't met due to Dumbledore arranging Ravens' and Gryffs' classes seperately. We don't know about A. Nott's mother. I am in with those who assume that the Lestranges are the couple and only Mr Nott was sent off to Azkaban. I think Mrs Nott took the kid and left after the incarceration. That would be why A. Nott isn't in Slytherin. I also think that Azkaban Nott was released before his death. Otherwise he would have been "marytered" in Azkaban, prompting a graveyard speech. Of course, all of this could sink like a rock come June. Glad you like my little duckie, Ginger From beccablue42 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 27 15:27:18 2003 From: beccablue42 at hotmail.com (beccablue42 ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 15:27:18 -0000 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50777 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aquariajade " wrote: > My favorite line from the books is: > > "I like a healthy breeze around my privates, thanks." - GoF > > I can not get past this scene without laughing. > > What are your favorites? > > Jade Nobody can pick just one!!! - "We tried to shut him [Percy] in a pyramid, but Mum spotted us." - The *entire* scene where the Marauder's Map insults Snape while Harry looks on in horror. - Harry to Cho: "Wannagoballwime?" - Anything Ron says under his breath in Divination. Especially the "outsize specs" comment. Becca, who is attempting to quote without the assistance of a single book. From gandharvika at hotmail.com Mon Jan 27 16:04:48 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 16:04:48 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Happiness Is A New Wand Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50778 Happiness Is A New Wand (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Happiness Is A Warm Gun_ by the Beatles) Midi here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle15.html He is a man who does not forget Do do do do do do, oh yeah He's well acquainted with each wand that he's ever sold To each and every customer The man with the store selling wands since three-hundred-eighty two B.C. Staring with his eyes all the while busy looking for your wand "The wand chooses the wizard," he says to you looking through the inventory I need a wand so I'm going down Down to the best wand shop that is around I need a wand so I'm going down Mister Ollivander's got the wands, Mister Ollivander's got the wands Mister Ollivander's got the wands, Mister Ollivander's got the wands Mister Ollivander's got the wands, Mister Ollivander's got the wands Happiness is a new wand (swish swish, flick flick) Happiness is a new wand (swish swish, flick flick) (spoken) When I hold you in my hand And I feel the magic surge through me I know that I've found the right one (sung) Because happiness is a new wand, mama Happiness is a new wand, yes it is Happiness is a new, yes it is, wand But don't you know that happiness is a new wand, mama -Gail B...who recently got herself a new wand...15 inches, ash, dragon heart string :)> _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 16:06:52 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 08:06:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort and Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030127160652.9561.qmail@web40501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50779 --- "Tom Wall " wrote: > "Slytherin, according to the legend, sealed the > Chamber of Secrets so > that none would be able to open it until his own > true heir arrived at > the school." Professor Binns (CoS 151) > > Does anyone have any idea why Slytherin's > descendants weren't watched > with the utmost scrutiny? > > Obviously, the rumor of the Chamber of Secrets was > enough to cause > many wizards and witches to search for its location > in the school. > In other words, they took it seriously enough to > believe it might be > there. So, if they took it seriously enough to > entertain notions of > its existence, how come they didn't take it > seriously enough to trace > Slytherin's lineage through to the present day? > > After all, Riddle's mother would have also been a > descendent of > Slytherin. In fact, there were probably tons of > descendents of > Salazar Slytherin. There are any number of > generations between > Slytherin and Riddle. And the likelihood of there > being a single-to- > single family tree is pretty minimal, I mean, > one-to-one all the way > down *is* a fairly rare occurance. And although we > don't know this as > fact, we must assume that some, if not all of them > attended Hogwarts. > > So with all of those generations of little > Slytherins bouncing > around, why was Riddle the only one to open the > Chamber of Secrets? > > I can only settle on three solutions: > > 1) Slytherin's descendents didn't attend Hogwarts > until Riddle did > (this seems totally ridiculous to me.) > 2) The other descendents didn't figure out that they > were Slytherin's > heirs (this also seems silly to me.) > 2) Riddle was the only one who was a Parselmouth, > since that's > supposed to be a very rare ability, so it's possible > that none of the > other descendents possessed the skill. > > I like three the most, but it still doesn't settle > well. > > All the same, it just seems, well, *irresponsible* > to not follow all > of Slytherin's descendents very closely, > particularly if they > attended Hogwarts, knowing that there was a > potential for said 'heir' > to unleash evil upon the school. > > -Tom > I think that *maybe* the current headmaster when Riddle was there, Dippet, thought the CoS was just a rumor as many others did. So he didn't really worry about the CoS being opened because he didn't think it existed. Or, since he didn't believe it existed, he didn't bother keeping track of the Slytherin descendants. But our seemingly all knowing Dumbledore did know something was up, and he was keeping an eye on Riddle. Dumbledore obviously knew what was going on because he knew that Hagrid was not guilty and always stood up for his innocence. I'm beginning to think that Dumbledore knows what's going on, but tends to let nature take it's course, and doesn't use his knowledge to interfere. ~Kathryn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From urbana at charter.net Mon Jan 27 16:12:52 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 16:12:52 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Obsessed Readers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50780 I just discovered at least 50 (and possibly 70) new messages since I last read this message board last night. So it got me to wondering something that probably should be moved to the OT-Chatter list immediately: Does anyone of the 5,700+ members of this group read *every* message? (and if so, when do you find time to do anything else?? :-) I assume the mods have to read all the messages, but does anyone else? I'm not trying to be snide, I just realized that there's no way on earth I'll ever be able to read all the messages on this list AND do other things I'm supposed to be doing (like, uh, working at my job, which is what I should be doing right now). I really love reading what people have to say (even the 12K messages) so I'm feeling a bit depressed that I will certainly have to miss out on many of the insights that people bring to this discussion. Like Hermione, I guess I want to be able to do it all, and realize that I really can't :-( Anne U (who wouldn't be able to handle a Time Turner at my age even if I were a witch) From dorigen at hotmail.com Mon Jan 27 16:22:25 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 16:22:25 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter and the Chamber of Obsessed Readers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50781 No, I don't. I handle it two ways: 1. After a certain point in a subject I tend to skim the posts. 2. There are certain ones I skip unread. (Of course this only works if you get individual posts and not digest format. Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From ginger_peachy130 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 27 16:09:00 2003 From: ginger_peachy130 at hotmail.com (ginger_peachy130 ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 16:09:00 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ron in Cos (was Ron and the Trouble with Veela) In-Reply-To: <037f01c2c565$8ad6d8e0$3301a8c0@huntleyl> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50782 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Laura Ingalls Huntley" wrote: > So, this brought to mind an instance when Harry's temper *did* >break, in regards to an attack on Hermione. I am referring to, of >course, the course of event that began with Draco's reflected curse >hitting Hermione and Snape's reaction to it ("I see no difference."). > > Normally, when looking at this scene, I am so struck by the >downright evilness of Snape, that I don't really focus on anything >else...but, look at the way Harry reacts to it. > > "It was lucky, perhaps, that both Harry and Ron started shouting at >Snape at the same time; lucky their voices echoed so much in the >stone corridor, for in he confused din, it was impossible for him to >hear exactly what they were calling him." > > For once, we have Harry's temper and general *sense* flying to >pieces right along with Ron's (possibly because his characteristic >slowness to anger has been stretched too far with the recent stress >he's endured). And the text goes on... > > "Harry's ears were ringing. The injustice of it made him want to >curse Snape into a thousand slimy pieces. He passed Snape, walked >with Ron to the back of the dungeon, and slammed his bag down onto >the table. Ron was shaking with anger too [...]" > > Again, behavior that is consistent with Ron's temperament, not >Harry's. I am not citing this as support of Harry ----> Hermione > (esp. as I don't believe that exists except in a *very* latent form >right now), I am just pointing out that if Ron's emotional outbursts >in defense of Hermione (when emotional outbursts are pretty much his >general style anyway) are indicative of his crush on Hermione, then >Harry's very atypical show of rage in this scene can certainly be >similarly explained. I'm sure Harry was deeply distressed over Snape's insult to Hermione, but remember what Snape had just done to him and Ron before the second part you quoted... "'Let's see,' [Snape] said, in his silkiest voice. 'Fifty points from Gryffindor and a detention each for Potter and Weasley. Now get inside, or it'll be a week's worth of detentions.' Harry's ears were ringing. The injustice of it made him want to curse Snape into a thousand slimy pieces." [...] "It" is such an evocative word, isn't it? As for evidence of Ron's "crush" (we R/Hr shippers never use that word :)!) in CoS, I saw it more in Ron's reaction to Hermione's crush on Lockhart ("Is Lockhart the smarmiest bloke you've ever met, or what?") than in his shows of temper, but it was really the cumulative effect of those things, plus his reaction to Hermione's petrification, and the chain of events concerning the spiders (Ron's fear of spiders revealed/"The sight seemed to stiffen his resolve"/Aragog scene)- and not so much that he was actively romantically interested in her at this early stage, but that JKR was positioning Hermione as a prime area of concern for Ron. But then I'm one of those people who's been ready to book the church, caterer and florist since the train-meeting scene of TCTMNBN :). What a childhood spent watching 1930s screwball comedies will do to you... Alexis (who will now slink back into shadows, Peter Lorre-style, after making an entrance at HPFGU) From gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 16:56:37 2003 From: gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com (gingersnape1966 ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 16:56:37 -0000 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50783 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "beccablue42 " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aquariajade " > wrote: > > My favorite line from the books is: > > > > "I like a healthy breeze around my privates, thanks." - GoF > > > > I can not get past this scene without laughing. > > > > What are your favorites? > > > > Jade Me: Aunt Petunia often said Dudley looked like a baby angel. Harry often said that Dudley looked like a pig in a wig. From summer2999 at aol.com Mon Jan 27 15:43:29 2003 From: summer2999 at aol.com (Carolyn ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 15:43:29 -0000 Subject: Cauldrons & Bill Weasley Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50784 About a week or so ago a made a post, and it never showed up at the boards, and I also never got an email saying it wouldn't be posted, so I'm trying again. My question is about cauldrons. In the first book, a cauldron is on Harry's school supply list, and he contemplates getting a solid gold one. My question is, what do the students do with their cauldrons once they get to school? It's not very practical to think that they carry their cauldron around with them until Potions class, because cauldrons are heavy. I also don't think they use them for homework purposes, because it would make sense that the only potion making students do is under the watch of Professor Snape--what if something went wrong? So what then, is the purpose of the cauldron? Also in CoS, Hermione had a cauldronw with which to brew the Polyjuice potion. Where did she get it? Why would the students be required to buy something they never use? The cauldrons that are used in Potions class, I've always assumed, were just already there. Soo... does anyone have an explanation for this? One more thing... I've read discussions in various places about the full names of the Weasleys. Has anyone considered Bill's full name to be Bilius? Because in PoA, there is the line, "Ron looked at Hermione as if she had gone mad. 'Hermione, if Harry's seen a Grim, that's--that's bad,' he said. 'My--my uncle Bilius saw one and--and he died twenty-four hours later!'" Has anyone considered the possibility that Bill was named after his uncle? It would make sense. Well that's all I have to say for now. I hope this gets posted, and I look forward to feedback. Peace, Carolyn From coonkell at msu.edu Mon Jan 27 16:53:12 2003 From: coonkell at msu.edu (Kelly ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 16:53:12 -0000 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50785 It's great to read lines from the books - I almost forgot what great ones there are. I only have one to contribute, only because it sticks out mostly in my mind. It's quoted by Ron after Moody "disciplined" Draco in GoF: "Draco Malfoy: The Amazing Bouncing Ferret." -Kelly From megalynn44 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 27 17:13:34 2003 From: megalynn44 at hotmail.com (Megalynn S.) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 12:13:34 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50786 > > > What are your favorites? > > > > > > Jade OH, I have already given two but another has stood out- (GOF, chapter 27) "'I told you!' Ron hissed at Hermione as she stared down at the article. ' I told you not to annoy Rita Skeeter! She's made you out to be some sort of- of scarlet woman!' Hermione stopped looking astonished and snorted with laughter" ~as did I~ "'Scarlet woman?' she repeated, shaking with suppressed giggles as she looked around at Ron. ' It's what my mum calls them,' Ron muttered, his ears going red." Megalynn _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From abigail_draconi at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 17:55:35 2003 From: abigail_draconi at yahoo.com (Abigail Draconi) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:55:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cauldrons & Bill Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030127175535.54477.qmail@web11703.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50787 wrote: > My question is about cauldrons. In the first book, > a cauldron is on > Harry's school supply list, and he contemplates > getting a solid gold > one. My question is, what do the students do with > their cauldrons > once they get to school? It's not very practical to > think that they > carry their cauldron around with them until Potions > class, because > cauldrons are heavy. I also don't think they use > them for homework > purposes, because it would make sense that the only > potion making > students do is under the watch of Professor > Snape--what if something > went wrong? So what then, is the purpose of the > cauldron? Also in > CoS, Hermione had a cauldronw with which to brew the > Polyjuice > potion. Where did she get it? Why would the > students be required > to buy something they never use? The cauldrons that > are used in > Potions class, I've always assumed, were just > already there. Soo... > does anyone have an explanation for this? I think that the cauldrons used in Potions class are the same ones that the students have to buy. But instead of the students lugging around a few kilos of cold iron, the cauldros find their way into the class room the same way the trunks find their way into the dorms. At the end of the lesson they either get sent back to the dorms or a storage closet. --Chyna Rose who whishes she had access to the same brand of domestic magic to move her stuff back into her dorm room. ===== @---<-- Abby I can never get people to understand that poerty is the expression of excited passion, and that there is no such thing as a life of passion any more than a continuous earthquake, or an eternal feaver -Lord Byron, 1821 Death is a doorway. Time is a window. I'll be back -don't know who said it first, but a guy in my poetry class said it last. Alien: Captain, I thought you were dead. Sheredan: I was. But I'm better now. -Babylon 5 You know, you should not aggravate the terrorist - Malfina, Outlaw Star __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From Audra1976 at aol.com Mon Jan 27 17:55:46 2003 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 12:55:46 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cauldrons & Bill Weasley Message-ID: <6B695EEB.1F8FF5F9.022D3A68@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50788 summer2999 wrote: <<>>> Me: Yeah, good question. Probably buying their own cauldron is like paying a "lab fee." It's possible that each students selects from a list of school-approved cauldrons, pays, and it is immediately shipped to Hogwarts for them, or each student actually carries their own cauldron to Hogwarts on their first day, and the house elves take them and set them up in the Potions lab. Audra From Ali at zymurgy.org Mon Jan 27 18:02:18 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 18:02:18 -0000 Subject: Dursley's bribed?, charmed? or afraid? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50789 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve " wrote: >>> Sorry, just a bad case of foot-in-mouth syndrom. What I really should have said, is until Harry comes of age which just happens to coincide with when he gets out of school.>>> I'd beg to disagree with you here. I think that as a qizard, Harry will come of age on his 17th birthday. That would leave him with most of one summer holiday and all of his 7th year before he leaves school. > > bboy_mn: (originally) > > > Vernon doesn't own Grunning's Drill Company. If he did, it would be Durlsey's Drill Company. No, there might already be a Limited company with Dursley in it. The name does not mean VErnon cannot own the company. > bboy_mn: > If he owned the Drill company then why wouldn't JKR refer to him as the owner of a drill company rather than the Director of a drill > company. Could someone from the UK enlighten us about the term > 'Director' as it applies to a business person? I'm taking it to be the same as the US title 'manager'. He was the Directory of Sales for Grunning's Drill Company. SNIP Her was the Manger of Sales for the Grunning's Drill Company. Certainly, if the had a substantial above management title, JKR would have used it, as in Vice President of Sales for the Grunnings Drill Company. Of course, this is a lot of speculation, but if he was the owner, that would be very siginificant and JKR would have mentioned it. Also, although I don't know much about the English economy, Dursley's don't live like he owns a company, that would give him substantial wealth. They live like someone who works in upper management; firmly middle to upper middle class, but not rich.>>. Being a director of a company is not the same as being a "manager", and we don't have the term "Vice-President" in many English companies. Being a Director of a company could imply being the owner of the company. Small private limited companies have one director and only have to have 2 issued shares, issued to, yes, you've got it, the director. Vernon could quite easily be the owner. Also, many companies are very small, and owning a company whilst it might sound grand, does not imply great wealth. As an indicator, many self employed people set themselves up as limited companies for tax reasons. Likewise, Vernon would probably have a company car for tax reasons. Our tax laws have changed recently to make this slightly less popular, but ownership of the company would definitely not be a reason not to have a company car. Ali From urbana at charter.net Mon Jan 27 18:08:03 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 18:08:03 -0000 Subject: (FILK) Happiness Is A New Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50790 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Gail Bohacek" wrote: > Happiness Is A New Wand > > > (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Happiness Is A Warm Gun_ by the > Beatles) > > Happiness is a new wand (swish swish, flick flick) > Happiness is a new wand (swish swish, flick flick) > > (spoken) > When I hold you in my hand > And I feel the magic surge through me > I know that I've found the right one > (sung) > Because happiness is a new wand, mama > Happiness is a new wand, yes it is > Happiness is a new, yes it is, wand > > But don't you know that happiness is a new wand, mama love it, LOVE IT, LOVE IT!!!! :-) > -Gail B...who recently got herself a new wand...15 inches, ash, dragon heart > string :)> Uhhhh ... okay .... Anne (pleasantly taken aback at seeing (c)2003 Anne Urbanski on my Filch filk on the HP Filks website!!! :-) From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Mon Jan 27 18:18:15 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 18:18:15 -0000 Subject: SHIPping For the Long Haul In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50791 Jim Ferer wrote: > That line of thinking calls up this question for R/Hers: are you > R/Hers for a date or two or three, or even a whole school year, or are > you in it for the long haul? How do you define R/H victory? It's > important, because some of us may be debating very different things. Yes, I agree that in shipping debates there is plenty of potential for confusion between what is seen as occurring in canon, and what may eventually happen post-canon. My definition of R/H victory would simply be that the later books (OOP onward) make it beyond reasonable doubt that GOF (and POA) were indeed foreshadowing Hermione having an interest in Ron. That would be entirely compatible with your position, which I think you describe as H/H. > This H/Her believes that Ron and Hermione will probably date, maybe > all year some year. I know Ron likes Hermione, and Hermione is at > least his friend, so I can cheerfully concede all the looks and nods > and winks and punctuation marks we've been throwing around the last > week or two. Now this raises another area of hidden difference which may surface as disagreements that are more apparent than real. That is, what do we understand by the nature of a 'ship'. You see, I have a lot of trouble envisaging any of the trio 'dating'. Perhaps it's a difference of language across the water, but I connote dating with the case where two people don't know each other very well at all, but have decided they want to know each other better. I think H, H, and R are way past that. I think the introduction of a romantic - 'eros' - element into either of Hermione's friendships in the trio ought to result in breaking the mould of what we understand by romance. Thus for example we might see a tacit understanding between two of them that they have rights of interference in each other's lives and behaviour with no public declaration of being 'an item' or much physicality of behaviour. That might mean that either camp in the fandom could claim victory under a scenario different from what seems often to be envisaged. > I also think Ron and Hermione are wildly unsuited in the long run. Now this is the essence of why I don't go along with the H/H case as often put forward: that post-canon they are suited. I have three objections, in order of increasing radicality: How can a third party know whether a couple are 'suited' for each other in advance? How can you predict from teens what the adult will be? Given that one *has* determined under some definition that two people are 'suited', why is that a good thing for them? These questions are equally applicable to those who see H/R as a long term suited couple, of course. For me there is no 'long haul', therefore, that is sensible to talk about, just random speculation. Professor Trelawney, bless her, is living proof of that. And in terms of fictional characters, I feel that there may be more to be done on working out the implications of the fact that so many of the great fictional romances are tragic. David From probono at rapidnet.com Mon Jan 27 18:28:24 2003 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 18:28:24 -0000 Subject: Dursley's bribed?, charmed? or afraid? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50792 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali " wrote: was > Being a director of a company is not the same as being a "manager", > and we don't have the term "Vice-President" in many English > companies. Being a Director of a company could imply being the owner > of the company. Small private limited companies have one director and > only have to have 2 issued shares, issued to, yes, you've got it, the > director. > > Vernon could quite easily be the owner. Also, many companies are very > small, and owning a company whilst it might sound grand, does not > imply great wealth. As an indicator, many self employed people set > themselves up as limited companies for tax reasons. Likewise, Vernon > would probably have a company car for tax reasons. Our tax laws have > changed recently to make this slightly less popular, but ownership of > the company would definitely not be a reason not to have a company > car. I respectfully disagree. I think if Vernon owned the company, Rowling would have been more specific. Personally, I think the reason she mentions the title 'Director' at all at this point is to show that Vernon has got a promotion. She seems to be showing the Dursley's gradually moving up in the world throughout the series. I also agree that Dursley lives like somebody in a top management position, not a CEO. Mainly because I have always believed that Grunnings manufactures industrial drills (as opposed to hand drills or dentists drills, for instance). I think Rowling proves my theory when Vernon sets up a big deal with the Masons, who I believe owned a construction company in states (don't have the books here, sorry)? Companies that manufacture industrial drills aren't small privately held operations. They are multi-billion dollar corporations, the owners/presidents/CEO's of which don't live in quaint little houses in the suburbs but instead own numerous large estates, acres upon acres of land, investment properties, vacation homes etc. etc. etc. Well anyhoo, that's my reasoning, for what it's worth! -Tanya From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 17:25:52 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 17:25:52 -0000 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50793 Kary wrote: "But certainly you already knew that, Sibyll?" said Professor McGonagall, her eyebroys raised... . "Certainly I knew, Minerva,"she said quietly. "But one does not parade the fact that one is All-Knowing. I frequently act as though I am not possessed of the Inner Eye, so as not to make others nervous." "That explains a great deal," said Professor McGonagall tartly. HA! Thanks Kary, that's my FAVORITE chuckler in the series! Comedy quite aside, I tend to mostly go for the truisms from Dumbledore - they always resonate realistically. I get the idea that she's tapping into a greater human consciousness, because these are all so - honest. (After singing the school song in PS/SS): "Ah, music," he said, wiping his eyes. "A magic beyond all we do here!" PS/SS 128 "Call him Voldemort, Harry. Always use the proper name for things. Fear of a name increases fear of the thing itself." PS/SS 298 "It is our choices, Harry, that show who we really are, far more than our abilities." CoS 333 So many more(!), but these are what I've got for now. -Tom From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 18:32:45 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 18:32:45 -0000 Subject: Cauldrons & Bill Weasley In-Reply-To: <20030127175535.54477.qmail@web11703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50794 Chyna Rose writes: But instead of the students lugging around a few kilos of cold iron, the cauldros find their way into the class room the same way the trunks find their way into the dorms. At the end of the lesson they either get sent back to the dorms or a storage closet. I reply: Yeah, I agree with Chyna - I mean, I guess it would make sense that the students somehow get the cauldron to the lab on the day of the first class or school or something. At that point, it could probably be stored in some kind of storage closet. But canon really need not cover it, because the lugging of a cauldron and then its storage is really just a matter of boring logistics - probably something that would be edited out in a revision anyways. Excellent question, though. -Tom From manawydan at ntlworld.com Mon Jan 27 18:52:13 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 18:52:13 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizards and empire References: <1043654107.2310.81089.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002201c2c635$34b8fc60$5f4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 50795 Ebony: >If the wizarding world did not mirror the Muggle one in any way... >...then why are Dean Thomas and Angelina Johnson named thusly? > >If, indeed, as you state the wizarding population of sub-Saharan >Africa had been left intact in this particular magical world, I doubt >*very seriously* that those two characters would have names like >those. Sure, explain it away all you wish, but the reason why so >many of the African-descended have European first, last, and middle >names is because of the legacy of slavery. True. My understanding of how this came about is because not only are wizard children born to wizard parents, but also to muggle parents (I think I read a little while ago on this list that Rowling has mentioned a figure of 25% muggle born wizards, though I didn't catch whether that's with one or two muggle parents). So although it's unlikely that any wizards were enslaved as adults, the first generation of children born in the new country would have contributed 25% of the wizard children born there. There would have been a steady process of acculturation (I'm probably not the right person to do the maths but it would be affected by such factors as longer wizard lifestyles) until the wizard population almost exactly matched the muggle population (I suspect for example that the proportion of Carib and Arawak wizards in the 20th century Caribbean is nil, and that the wizard population is mostly black). Interesting to speculate what would have happened to those first generation wizards when their powers emerged. What I would see happening is that the wizard:muggle ratio becomes temporarily richer or poorer in a country that has been subject to mass emigration/immigration but then gradully coming back into balance through acculturation. >common with me, and I am willing to wager that Dean and Angelina do >as well. Now, I do understand that there are quite a number of >African immigrants who live in Britain. However, their names are >somewhat different from those of West Indian heritage... who *were* >descended from slaves. The same process may have happened during the period of West Indian immigration to the UK - as it was largely voluntarily, a number of Caribbean wizards may well have come along out of interest. But even if they hadn't, the acculturation rule would have meant that there would have been a steady proportion of black wizard children born in the UK of Caribbean muggle parents. >I also think it's significant that the other nonwhite characters that >we see being educated at Hogwarts represent nations that England >either conquered completely (Ireland, India, etc.) or had some sort >of favored nation status with (China--although Hong Kong was under >British control for a long time, yet? Don't know the history >completely there.) If there was no empire in the history of JKR's >wizarding world, then why are they being educated in Britain? Probably the same factors apply. Ireland, I'm not sure about, and Rowling has been very careful "not to go there". The Quidditch teams come from all Ireland, as well as Wales, Scotland, England, and Cornwall - I _suspect_ that there is one government covering the "British Isles" rather than several covering the various nationalities - if Scotland is independent, for example, then why doesn't England have its own school of wizardry? Possibly we can surmise that there _is_ some sort of empire involved here. The cultural and linguistic differences between English/Welsh/Irish etc are not allowed to appear and perhaps (and I'm way off into outer space theoretically here) there are "hidden" lines of national tension between the nations of the British Isles. >Because Hogwarts is the best school in the world? If so, then *why* >is Hogwarts the best, and not another place where magic likely has >been practiced far longer (China, Egypt, etc.) than in either Britain >or Europe? My own theory is that these countries do indeed have their own schools, of no less status and prestige. There's no suggestion in the books that the students with non-European names have the kind of cultural or linguistic differences that might apply if they were actual "overseas students" - there's not even any trace of an accent in the way they speak. >I do not think that the wizarding world is utopian as far as racial >and religious differences are concerned. Rather, I think they're >different... and although I concede that magical national boundaries >are often not contiguous with Muggle ones, I really think you're >oversimplifying the rest of the wizarding world. Well, all of this is surmise, of course... The only canon we have about the ability of wizards to escape persecution is the reference to their not having been bothered during the Burning Times. >And judging from what we know about Voldemort (and the mentions of >Grindelwald), I would say that indeed the wizarding world knows about >conquest and empire. Perhaps not in terms of the racialized or >religious Other... but magic has its Othered groups as well. We know most about Voldemort - Grindelwald (and also Edric) are really just names - we know or suspect that they were rebels of some sort but so far we only have hints about what they were about. Muggles are certainly "othered", possibly squibs also. When it is discovered that Filch is a squib, it's a subject of humour rather than sympathy. But perhaps one difference is that wizards are aware that they are not the only sapient species on this planet - there appears to be coexistence with goblins (but I'm sure we have more to learn about them) but hostility to giants (likewise). Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 19:06:41 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 19:06:41 -0000 Subject: Dursley's bribed?, charmed? or afraid? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50796 Tanya writes: I think if Vernon owned the company, Rowling would have been more specific. Personally, I think the reason she mentions the title 'Director' at all at this point is to show that Vernon has got a promotion. She seems to be showing the Dursley's gradually moving up in the world throughout the series. I reply: I have to respectfully disagree with your respectful disagreement: "Mr. Dursley was the director of a firm called Grunnings, which made drills." (PS/SS 1) I don't know if any mentions of promotions have been made in the subsequent books, but we know he's the director of Grunnings before we've even met Harry. Tanya writes: I also agree that Dursley lives like somebody in a top management position, not a CEO. Companies that manufacture industrial drills aren't small privately held operations. They are multi-billion dollar corporations, the owners/presidents/CEO's of which don't live in quaint little houses in the suburbs but instead own numerous large estates, acres upon acres of land, investment properties, vacation homes etc. etc. etc. I respond: Well, let's start with the fact that they spoil Dudley so much. "Thirty-nine, sweetums." [Petunia to Dudley, re: quantity of Dudley's birthday gifts] (PS/SS 21) "...Harry and Uncle Vernon watched Dudley unwrap the racing bike, a video camera, a remote control airplane, sixteen new computer games, and a VCR. He was ripping the paper off a gold wristwatch when..." (PS/SS 22) You know, I don't think that myself and my two siblings COMBINED ever got 38 birthday presents in a year, never mind the quality of the ones he IS getting. The quantity of gifts alone is incredible, but can you imagine how MUCH they spent to get him all of that stuff? "The Dursleys had everything they ever wanted." (PS/SS 1) This does not imply a poor family. It doesn't even imply a middle class family. And, since the Dursleys live in a suburb, it would be fairly preposterous for them to have acres of land, although we do learn in CoS that "[the Dursley's will] be shopping for a vacation home in Majorca this time tomorrow." (CoS 7) I would speculate that the evidence is to the effect that the Dursleys are EXTREMELY well off, which is what makes their terrible treatment of Harry so, well, terrible. The only reason they're not doing better is because they spend so much of their money on Dudley. And since they spoil Dudley so much, since they can speculate about purchasing a vacation home in Majorca if ONE deal goes through, since they can send Dudley to an expensive private school, and since Uncle Vernon is even able to take the whole family to a deserted rocky island hotel in order to avoid the letters from Hogwarts (which means he had to not be at work for that time), he must definitely be a top man. And regarding his position as owner, it's highly possible that he's an owner. Name has nothing to do with it. Ray Kroc was the owner of McDonalds. Although I concur that if he was the owner, JKR would have said so. -Tom From pennylin at swbell.net Mon Jan 27 19:27:29 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 13:27:29 -0600 Subject: Banter/FF: After the Ball was Re: Banter and other SHIP subjects References: Message-ID: <03c301c2c63a$21d93100$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 50797 Hi all -- With respect to my assertion that JKR may not have heard the term "cute meet" before or intended her PS/SS interactions to work that way, Pippin said: <<<<>>>>>>> That still doesn't address the issue of her *intent.* I still say she may not have intended the effect that you see. On marriages resulting from teen romances, Pippin says: <<<<>>>>>>>>> Well, first, I'm not saying that there aren't exceptions to every rule. But, *in general,* the norm is not for two teenagers to only date each other and noone else and end up getting married and having it be a lasting marriage. So, while I might buy *one* of those couples in the Potterverse (R/H *or* H/G), OBHWF just sounds incredibly, incredibly unrealistic to me. I will say that I *don't* think the "crushes" you've described in HP are enough dating experience to allow those characters to effectively tell the difference between infatuation or shallow attractions and real love. Harry has no dating experience at this point. He escorted Parvarti and he thought she looked nice. I wouldn't even term that a shallow attraction really. And, frankly, I've never been convinced that Ron really has a "crush" on Fleur -- I think he just is more prone to reacting to her veela charms and obviously thinks she's very attractive. Of course, we aren't privy to his fantasies as we are with Harry, so it could well be that Ron has a similar crush on Fleur that Harry has/had on Cho. In any case, I definitely don't think that's "enough" experience in the romance department for either of them to judge the "real thing." I also don't think teenagers are often mature enough to follow through, even if *is* real love .....it just becomes "right person, but wrong time, wrong place." Pippin said: > > <<< *Something* must have happened, because one minute Ron > and Hermione are standing ten feet apart and screaming, and > the next morning--well, I'll let Harry tell it: > > ==== > Ron and Hermione seemed to have reached an unspoken > agreement not to discuss their argument. They were being quite > friendly to each other, though oddly formal. > ===== > > Oh, that 'seemed' -- that covers a multitude of assumptions, > doesn't it. We'd know a lot more about the status of Ron and > Hermione's relationship if we knew what had *really* > happened. Did he apologize? Did she forgive? Did he? Did Ron, > in fact, do what Ebony accuses him of lacking the magnaminity > to do, and wish Hermione *bon chance* with Krum?>>>>>>>>> [snip FF examples of what might have transpired, one from the R/H viewpoint, one from the "H/H viewpoint"] Well, your R/H scenario is *possible,* although I don't know imagine it happened that way. I imagine more that they both stormed off, both laid in bed and thought about what had happened. It's probably dawning on Ron by then that he *is* jealous of Krum and that he *is* interested in Hermione, but he's not ready to try and do anything about it just yet. He's also feeling a bit intimidated by the fact that her current "beau" is his idol Quidditch star. From Hermione's end, she is thinking that she knows for sure now that Ron has a crush on her. Beyond that, it could go many ways, depending on how she feels in return. In any case, I imagine they both met at the breakfast table (or in the Common Room before breakfast if you prefer). I figure they didn't meet each other's eyes directly until later that day as things began to settle down. I figure they just made mundane conversation in a rather formal way ("could you pass the marmalade, please?" "Of course. Can I get you the juice?"), and it's this that Harry observes as oddly formal (which he also interprets to mean that they *didn't* discuss the previous nights' argument). Harry eventually bridges the gap between them and the relatioship returns to normalcy, without any conversation needing to be had. As for your "H/H scenario," nah, that's definitely not at *all* the way I envision it. For one thing, I don't think Hermione is anywhere remotely that close to Ginny as a friend ......nor do I imagine she would cause a big scene in her dorm room or that she would confide in Parvarti or Lavendar about much of anything. I also don't think it's necessary for her to dump Ron as a friend or swallow her pride. They had a fight. They reached an *unspoken* agreement not to speak about it anymore. Why are there only the two alternatives in your mind: either she confronts Ron and forces him to apologize and/or discuss the situation OR she's a wimp who only tolerates Ron because she's worried about Harry? I can't in my wildest dreams imagine that she's friends with Ron for the next 6 months just because she's worried about Harry's safety and thinks if she dumps Ron that Harry would in turn dump her. That's not saying anything good about the strength of Hermione's *friendship* with either boy! That is assuredly *not* the position of the H/H shippers (or at least not this one!). Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jan 27 19:34:19 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 19:34:19 -0000 Subject: The wizarding world and empire (was Democracy and prejudice) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50798 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z " wrote: >> And I agree with Ebony in a larger sense. If someone wanted to create a world in which colonialism had never held sway--if that were a deliberate part of her vision--then she would think about that and indicate it with details such as African names. << Legendary Britain became an empire long before historical Britain did. Mallory tells how King Arthur defeated the Roman Emperor and made him a vassal. (!) Empire is a much older concept than race. King Arthur's court also featured the Saracen knight Sir Palomides, who was Other because of his "paynim" religion, rather than his race. I don't know the history of the name Palomides, but in dealing with Celtic characters, Mallory anglicized the names, so that Aengus became Anguish and Grania became Igraine. If the wizards never experienced a dark age, they could have kept the Roman system of hereditary surnames in use among themselves. Later, when Muggle Britons adopted hereditary surnames (1300s), the wizards could have borrowed Muggle surnames, such as Johnson or Potter, as part of their eventually abandoned effort to blend into the population. World-builders must sometime make compromises. If Rowling had used African surnames when most native-born black British subjects have anglic names, that would have labelled the black characters as exotic, when she obviously doesn't want them perceived that way. Pippin From eloiseherisson at aol.com Mon Jan 27 19:47:17 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:47:17 EST Subject: The wizarding world and empire Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50799 Ebony: >Now, I do understand that there are quite a number of >African immigrants who live in Britain. However, their names are >somewhat different from those of West Indian heritage... who *were* >descended from slaves. Absolutely correct. >It is certain that many Africans, American Natives, Asians, etc. have >European names today. Yet it is Dean and Angelina's *last* names... >their family names... that flag to me that there was indeed something >like the Middle Passage in the wizarding world. There had to have >been. Sure, you can rationalize this by saying that both Dean *and* >Angelina had ethnically British fathers (in which case they are not >simply black, but biracial--and JKR is misnaming them). There are >other explanations you could give. I say just give the easiest one. Not sure I completely follow you here. All you need is for them to have a male Muggle forbear of West Indian descent, whether that is father, grandfather, whatever. I don't think we *know* that either of them is pure-blood, do we (although I am more than happy to be corrected on this). >I also think it's significant that the other nonwhite characters that >we see being educated at Hogwarts represent nations that England >either conquered completely (Ireland, India, etc.) or had some sort >of favored nation status with (China--although Hong Kong was under >British control for a long time, yet? Don't know the history >completely there.) Well, that would be because they are the ones you are most *likely* to find living in Britain today. Our history of immigration is somewhat different from yours. And yes, it is largely based on our colonial past. We actually have residents from a huge range of countries and cultures (in the Inner London Health Authority where I used to work, there were 40 different first languages spoken), but the West Indies and the Asian subcontinent are areas with a long history of immigration into the UK. Some of it by invitation, in time of labour shortage. Our links in recent history have been with Hong Kong, rather than China. We handed Hong Kong back to China in 1997. I'm not terribly comfortable with what you say about Ireland, either. As a Brit, I certainly would hesitate to express it like that. Oh, and it's Britain, not England! The distinction is important.;-) >If there was no empire in the history of JKR's >wizarding world, then why are they being educated in Britain? I have always presumed it is simply because the students concerned are from families who are *now* resident in Britain, who at some time have emigrated to Britain, directly or indirectly because there *was* a *Muggle* British Empire. I don't see that this necessarily means that there was *wizarding* British Empire, but in so far as Muggle life impinges on Wizard life, then the effects of Empire must also have impinged. If there were close links between countries in the Muggle world, then those links may also be reflected in the WW. We really don't know how Muggle and Wizarding politics relate, as recent discussion has demonstrated. Having said that, there is also no reason at all to think that wizards might not have been caught up in the slave trade. But then, neither is there any reason to suppose that magic might not suddenly appear in a totally Muggle family of West Indian origin. In fact we should *expect* this. I'm not saying that your argument is incorrect, just that it's not proven; as you said yourself, there are many explanations for Dean and Angelina's surnames (one of which is, of course, the suspicion that Dean's ethnicity was only decided after the book went to the US publishers) and I'm not convinced that any of them need any kind of special pleading. >Because Hogwarts is the best school in the world? If so, then *why* >is Hogwarts the best, and not another place where magic likely has >been practiced far longer (China, Egypt, etc.) than in either Britain >or Europe? Well, where does that idea come from? Just something Hermione says, isn't it?. I imagine that if it *is* the best, then it is the best of the magic schools practising in the *European* tradition. I would suppose that in Egypt, China, etc., there are schools which practise magic according to different cultural tradtions. My assumption is that Cho comes from a Europeanised background, or that her parents wish her to be educated in the European tradition. It may well be that there is a Carribbean School of Witchcraft and Wizardry, so why wouldn't Dean and Angelina attend that if they are of West-Indian descent? All I can say is that many young black people these days would describe themselves primarily as British. If a family has lived in the UK for several generations, one might expect the children to be educated here, rather than shipped off abroad. >And judging from what we know about Voldemort (and the mentions of >Grindelwald), I would say that indeed the wizarding world knows about >conquest and empire. Perhaps not in terms of the racialized or religious Other... >but magic has its Othered groups as well. Which, at the risk of sounding horribly cynical, is to be expected as it is an unfortunate and enduring aspect of human nature. Our human instinct to reinforce group stability and cohesion is frequently manifested in the demonisation of the Other, whatever that Other might be. In JKR's world, we see it clearly in Wizarding attitudes to Elves, Goblins, Vampires, Giants - any magical beings who aren't Witches or Wizards - as well as towards Muggles. >Now, perhaps JKR intended for her world to be completely colorblind >and free of any traces of imperialism. Yet as Edward Said so >famously stated in Culture and Imperialism, "Without empire, there is >no modern European novel as we know it." Even though she does a >noble job "teaching tolerance", as it were, in her novels, there >still are vestiges of the pernicious legacy of empire in her work... >and this is textual evidence that absolutely cannot be refuted. It's textual evidence of the legacy of empire in RL, I would submit, but not necessarily in the WW. It is evidence of the unpalatable fact that yes, a large proportion of our black populace is descended from those whom my ancestors enslaved. It also reflects the reality that many black children in the UK have European names. I do think that JKR has sidestepped the issue of racism as we know it. But it's clearly addressed by metaphor, in the attitude of the WW to Muggles, of the Malfoys and Voldemorts of the WW to "Mudbloods". What JKR has done is to make all readers, whatever our ethnic origins, part of what is, if not an ethnic minority, at least an ethnic Other to the WW. We are all outsiders in the WW. All of us might be called Mudbloods, be patronised, be excluded. Voldemort is after people just like us and many in the WW, to judge from previous events will stand by and let it happen. If JKR can make us identify with Muggle-borns, as she can via the experiences of Hermione - may this not be the reason for Hermione's parentage? - she has potentially a tremendous tool for teaching tolerance by giving all of us, her readers, the viewpoint of the victims of prejudice. ~Eloise Who has suddenly become rather concerned about Hermione's parents. From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jan 27 19:55:31 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 19:55:31 -0000 Subject: FILK: Eight-legged Freaks Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50800 Eight Legged Freaks A filk by Pippin To the tune of Eight Days a Week by The Beatles Dedicated to Gail, Beatles Filker extraordinaire The scene: Ron considers Hagrid's instructions to follow the spiders Who's attacking students Freezing them to clay? Hagrid got arrested Taken far away Told us hiders, follow spiders Don't wanna go and see no Eight-legged freaks Oooh we've got to help now Guess I know it's true One thing I can say now Spiders make me spew Hairy, scary No way, Harry Ain't gonna try and follow Eight-legged freaks Eight-legged freaks They sca-a-a-a-re me Eight-legged freaks You won't get me to go in there Miss you ev'ry day, girl Always on my mind I will find a way, girl Stiffen up my spine Persevere, oh Face that fear, oh Why'd I wanna be a hero? Eight-legged freaks! Eight-legged freaks They sca-a-a-a-re me Eight-legged freaks I'll face them for Hermione (later) I hear something out there Panic fills my mind Something awfully big is Coming from behind Giant Spiders Super-sizers Acromantulizers Eight-legged freaks! (3x) From pennylin at swbell.net Mon Jan 27 19:59:00 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 13:59:00 -0600 Subject: SHIP: Re: Banter and other SHIP subjects References: Message-ID: <03ca01c2c63e$89b18620$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 50801 Hi -- Angua said actually a fair few things I can agree with or at least concede (though I still don't concede that Hermione *enjoys* the bickering with Ron.....I don't think she does). Angua then said: <<<<<>>>>>>>>>> I really don't understand why the H/H'ers have to be made out as anti-Ron and the "villains" in any debate on this topic, Angua. It happens that *I* don't really like Ron much at all (like Ebony, I loved him right up until about mid-way through PoA and began to actively dislike him during GoF......though because I have liked him in the past, I have every confidence that I *might* like him again). However, I do know plenty of H/H shippers who have absolutely no desire to see "Ron cast into the outer darkness." Good grief. There's no need to be so broad-brush about our ship really. I don't think the R/H conflict needs to be resolved through confrontation. But, why don't you acknowledge that it might not ever be "resolved"? It *might* be that: This. Is. The. Way. They. Communicate. It might *not* be unresolved sexual tension. I have a hard time accepting that UST is the reason they've been bickering since they met at age 11, frankly. So, I don't think that the bickering is "masking" the UST. Ah, the ongoing debate about whether Hermione enjoys the "Exchanges" or not. I said: > >If [JKR] continues to stress words > >like "savagely," "impatiently," "sputtered > >indignantly," "acidly," "coldly," "angrily," etc., she might give > >us the impression that Ron and Hermione really don't interact very > >positively during their "bantering." > Derannimer responded: > This is true, Angua. JKR *does* tend to use extremely negative words > to describe the way that Hermione reacts to Ron's teasing. (Although > I think that that "savagely" actually belonged to Ron; you can > scratch that one if you like to.) But my point is that H/Hers have a > pretty objective reason for thinking that Hermione doesn't enjoy TE. > There are clues in JKR's diction and description to suggest that she > doesn't. JKR uses very negative words here. Angua gives us a list of examples of "positives" associated with "Exchanges" between Ron and Hermione. <<<<<"I've still got ten Galleons," she said, checking her purse. "It's my birthday in September, and Mum and Dad gave me some money to get myself an early birthday present." "How about a nice *book*?" said Ron innocently. "No, I don't think so," said Hermione composedly. "I really want an owl...." I would say 'composedly' is a positive-connotation word.>>>>>>>> Er.......*this* is Ron *trying* to interact with Hermione and her not getting it, not playing. She's *serious*. She totally misses his joke. This is funny for the reader, but it's not really a good example of Ron and Hermione interacting. Isn't it just one-sidedness, really? <<<<5 - She likes that kind of humor when Ron does it to other people (PoA Ch. 15): Professor Trelawney rustled past. "Would anyone like me to help them interpret the shadowy portents within their Orb?" she murmured over the clinking of her bangles. "I don't need help," Ron whispered. "It's obvious what this means. There's going to be loads of fog tonight." Both Harry and Hermione burst out laughing.>>>>>>>>>> Yes, but this too is not Ron/Hermione interaction, Angua. We're talking about the direct interaction between the two of them, not whether Hermione has or lacks a sense of humor. I think it's clear she has a sense of humor and enjoys using it herself. But, I don't think she's enjoying much of the Exchanges with Ron. <<<<6 - She likes to be proved right (PoA Ch.22): (from Sirius's letter) ...It was I who sent you the Firebolt -- "Ha!" said Hermione triumphantly. "See! I *told* you it was from him!" "Yes, but he hadn't jinxed it, had he?" said Ron. The fact that she enjoys being proved right this time makes me think she enjoys other times when she is able to show that Ron is wrong, even when the text doesn't say 'triumphantly,' even when she 'snaps.'>>>>>> So, her enjoying "proving Ron wrong" is good for a romance, *how?* :::looks puzzled by the logic::::::: <<<<7. "You're eating again, I notice," said Ron, watching Hermione adding liberal amounts of jam to her toast too. "I've decided there are better ways of making a stand about elf rights," said Hermione haughtily. "Yeah... and you were hungry," said Ron, grinning. That whole passage gives me a positive feeling, and I can't believe Hermione didn't enjoy it. It is the normal friendly banter (oops! I mean, ummm, Exchanges) between friends. She started it, too -- jumping on Harry's remark. And I see both "briskly" and "haughtily" as positive-connotation words in this context.>>>>>>>> Yes, *between friends* is spot-on, Angua. Yes, this is a positive scene. We aren't arguing that there are *no* positive R/H interactions. We're not arguing that they aren't friends or are only remaining friends because of Harry or something of that nature. We're just saying that there are some strong indicators through JKR's word choice that the bickering/bantering and arguments between Ron and Hermione are not all fun and games. There's a decided negativity to the word choice she's employed in many cases and pointing up all the positive interactions isn't going to cancel out that negativity. I think it's JKR signaling that there is a problem in how they interact at present. Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From draco382 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 20:02:29 2003 From: draco382 at yahoo.com (draco382 ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 20:02:29 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Obsessed Readers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50802 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Anne " wrote: I'm not trying to be snide, I just realized that there's > no way on earth I'll ever be able to read all the messages on this > list AND do other things I'm supposed to be doing (like, uh, working > at my job, which is what I should be doing right now). If you want, you could always change your user settings to "No Email". This would mean that you don't get the messages in your email inbox, but would be able to check them at the groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups website. I'm not sure if this is what you were saying...i hope its helpful. my two cents, draco382 From probono at rapidnet.com Mon Jan 27 20:15:42 2003 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 20:15:42 -0000 Subject: Vernon's Drill Co; (was Dursley's bribed?, charmed? or afraid?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50803 "Tom Wall " wrote: >>And since they spoil Dudley so much, since they can >>speculate about purchasing a vacation home in >>Majorca if ONE deal goes through, since they can >>send Dudley to an expensive private school, and since >>Uncle Vernon is even able to take the whole family to >>a deserted rocky island hotel in order to avoid the >>letters from Hogwarts (which means he had to not be >>at work for that time), he must definitely be a top >>man. >>And regarding his position as owner, it's highly possible >>that he's an owner. Name has nothing to do with it. >>Ray Kroc was the owner of McDonalds. >>Although I concur that if he was the owner, JKR would >>have said so. ME: Tom, Dagnabbits! I just might have to respectfully agree with you here, because I've just come across this passage (PoA/2) that reads: "...Uncle Vernon bored them all with a long talk about Grunnings, his drill-making company..." *respectful grumbling* I concede. -Tanya From pennylin at swbell.net Mon Jan 27 20:25:00 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:25:00 -0600 Subject: SHIP: Authorial intent, Hermione's Secrets, and Ron's Problems References: <001b01c2c4ac$0002d5c0$723b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> Message-ID: <03e701c2c642$2aa6a260$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 50804 Hi -- David had asked: > So, your exam question: does the text go out of its way (whatever > that means!) to string along opposing shippers? >>>>> Debbie responded with lots of great thoughts as usual. I too believe that the text is written intentionally ambiguous, with regard to Hermione in particular, and I think that's why JKR is cagey with her chat answers on this topic. >Is the ambiguity in > Hermione, JKR, or her readers? Debbie: <<< We therefore unconsciously project ourselves into her character and, as others have said, become emotionally involved in her actions. My point, however, is that JKR seems to have avoided revealing a great deal about Hermione besides whether she likes one of her two best friends as more than a friend. For example, she hasn't even told us about Hermione's wand. We don't know what her greatest fear is.>>>>>>>>>> Yes, Yes, Yes! :--) I agree completely that Hermione is a wild card really. <<< I think you've skipped a few though. I know you're operating on the assumption that because this is fiction rather than real life, Ron would not step aside and allow H/H. I don't frankly envision any sort of melodramatic, "I give you my blessings" speech from Ron either. However, I don't put much emphasis on the fictional medium being a conduit for only these four possibilities. I think it's entirely possible that: 5. Ron and Hermione date. It's either successful but not entirely satisfactory (not "the real thing" and this is evident to both parties at some point), so they break up amicably .......or it's not successful and they break up either amicably or not so amicably. 6. Hermione rejects Ron, and Ron pines after Hermione for a time..........and then realizes that he just had a crush after all. He gets on with his life, and could follow any of your scenarios, but most probably Newly-Self-Assured!Ron. Is he really going to *always* be a roadblock to H/H in either scenario? I'd say not. Happens all the time. I tend to view novels as imitative of life ..........so I'm afraid the whole "well, but this is fiction" argument doesn't hold much sway with me. <<<>>>>>>> What about: Ron winning the struggle with himself but not winning Hermione's heart .....no romances in the Trio during canon....... but an eventual turn to H/H years later (my personal favorite)? I don't know why Ron has to "concede the girl." Why can't it just be a 14 yr old boy who had a crush on his best friend, but it never worked out? He doesn't have to turn evil or die for H/H to work IMO. <<<<>>>>>>>> Yes, absolutely! I can definitely buy that. And, assuming all the Trio are still alive, it certainly does just allow the shippers to find their own valid endings (though, of course, an epilogue could put JKR's imprimatur on one ship or the other or no-ship). Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 20:38:46 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 12:38:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vernon's Drill Co; (was Dursley's bribed?, charmed? or afraid?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030127203846.97853.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50805 --- Tanya wrote: > Dagnabbits! I just might have to respectfully agree with you here, > because I've just come across this passage (PoA/2) that reads: > > "...Uncle Vernon bored them all with a long talk about Grunnings, > his drill-making company..." > > *respectful grumbling* I concede. Wait a minute, Tanya, there's no need to go throwing in the towel just yet! We often referred to the place where my father worked as "Dad's company" even though he wasn't the owner. Think how often you've said things like, "Boy, things sure are annoying at my building". Now think how often you've actually *owned* said building. ;) It's a common enough turn of phrase. I will submit, given my penchant for firmly arguing both sides of an issue, that owning a company does not mean one is automatically disgustingly wealthy with a huge house. My father now owns his own business (incidentally, one that does industrial manufacturing *g*) and while he's certainly well off, he doesn't have a mansion. He has a nice house in a good suburb, just like when he was an executive at another company. So I don't think it's necessarily a given that Vernon either IS or ISN'T the owner of Grunnings. There really isn't enough to say either way. He's definitely upper management at the least, though. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From manawydan at ntlworld.com Mon Jan 27 19:22:45 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 19:22:45 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort References: <1043694728.6960.46541.m7@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <004101c2c639$79080740$5f4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 50806 Milz: >Riddle could have slipped in under the radar. He was half-Muggle. His >mother died during or shortly after his birth and he was placed in an >orphanage. If his grandfather, Marvolo, harbored the same anti-Muggle >sentiments as Slytherin, then it would only follow that Riddle's >mother did not tell him of her relationship with Tom Riddle Sr or Something I have wondered. 1. Why was Tom Riddle given his father's name rather than his mother's (as would have been normal for an orphan born at the time)? How did the muggle authorities even know what his father's name was? 2. How did he later find out his family history, given that his mother was dead and presumably (if he was in a muggle orphanage) there were no wizard relatives nearby to bring him up? 3. Should not the MoM have had some sort of adoption arrangements to cover that kind of situation? It seems harsh to leave a WW child to be brought up in the less than salubrious kind of local authority care that there would have been in the 1920s. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From risako at nexusanime.com Mon Jan 27 19:52:13 2003 From: risako at nexusanime.com (Melissa McCarthy) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 15:52:13 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? References: Message-ID: <00d701c2c63d$975f38e0$37a694d1@vaio> No: HPFGUIDX 50807 My favourite (at least, of the ones that haven't been mentioned!) comes from GoF, chapter 21: "Just then, Neville caused a slight diversion by turning into a large canary." Also hilarious is the entire fourth chapter of GoF ^^ Melissa From natmichaels at hotmail.com Mon Jan 27 20:19:07 2003 From: natmichaels at hotmail.com (lorien_eve ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 20:19:07 -0000 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50808 My favorite is in the last paragraph of "The Boy Who Lived" in SS: "One small hand closed on the letter beside him and he slept on, not knowing that he was special, not knowing that he was famous......" There's more of the quote, but that's my favorite part. Lorien_Eve --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gingersnape1966 " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "beccablue42 > " wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aquariajade " > > wrote: > > > My favorite line from the books is: > > > > > > "I like a healthy breeze around my privates, thanks." - GoF > > > > > > I can not get past this scene without laughing. > > > > > > What are your favorites? > > > > > > Jade > > Me: Aunt Petunia often said Dudley looked like a baby angel. Harry > often said that Dudley looked like a pig in a wig. From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 21:04:36 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 13:04:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Voldemort's childhood In-Reply-To: <004101c2c639$79080740$5f4d6551@f3b7j4> Message-ID: <20030127210436.36660.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50809 --- manawydan wrote: > 1. Why was Tom Riddle given his father's name rather than his mother's > (as > would have been normal for an orphan born at the time)? How did the > muggle > authorities even know what his father's name was? Riddle said something about "she lived just long enough to name me", implying Mrs.Riddle died shortly after his birth, not actually during it. A mother may generally give her child either her own last name or the father's, so long as she identifies who it is, whether they're married or not. (Since we don't know for sure which was the case.) > 2. How did he later find out his family history, given that his mother > was > dead and presumably (if he was in a muggle orphanage) there were no > wizard > relatives nearby to bring him up? I picture a pregnant Mrs. Riddle, abandoned by her husband for being magic and cast out by her family for consorting with a Muggle, knowing she was weak and there's a strong possibility she won't survive the birth. So she writes out a long letter to her unborn child, which she gives to someone at the orphanage and insists he be given the letter at a certain age. Depending on your opinion of Mrs.Riddle, the letter was either full of bittersweet memories about her darling husband, thus making Tom contemptuous that she would still feel this way even after he abandoned her, or full of vitriol and hate about the man who abandoned them, thus indoctrinating Tom in her views. :) Either way, the letter would have also mentioned her own family and the legend that's been passed down about Slytherin's Heir. > 3. Should not the MoM have had some sort of adoption arrangements to > cover > that kind of situation? It seems harsh to leave a WW child to be brought > up > in the less than salubrious kind of local authority care that there > would > have been in the 1920s. There doesn't appear to be a MoM office that deals with this sort of thing. All of Harry's living arrangements, after all, were made by Dumbledore, who holds no official position in the Ministry. Historically speaking, the idea of state-sponsored adoption and orphan care is fairly modern. If the wizarding world is still stuck in the past for many of their traditions, they may also consider orphans to be something that should be dealt with by the extended family and/or village. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From jodel at aol.com Mon Jan 27 21:25:53 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 16:25:53 EST Subject: The Riddle Calendar Message-ID: <118.1e3cd6ff.2b66fde1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50810 Harriet makes a good attempt at sorting out what year Tom M. Riddle was born. But overlooks a small detail. Yes. The fact that the Riddle Diary is dated 50 years before the year Harry got his hands on it is a major clue to the CoS plot, and is relevant. It is likely that the 500 year aniversary of Nick's Deathday, in 1492 is also relevant. It is generally accepted that Harry was born in 1980 since he had just had turned 12 the year of the deathday party. However; 1. He did not get his hands on the diary until after the year had turned. 2. The events of Hagrid's expulsion did not take place until the June of the year that was the date printed on the diary. 3. By Riddle's own testimony, he did not put himself into the diary until *after* the Chamber had been closed again. The school year may have begun in 1992, but it ended in 1993. The diary's date, from the internal evidence was 1943. If the diary was recording events of the year of its own date, (implied, but not solidly established) then Riddle must have either aquired the diary after the school year ended (from a remainder cart perhaps) having been sent back to London at the end of the year despite his request to stay on over the summer, or he was in the habit of keeping a diary already and had been given it before he left for school the year earlier, or sent it by someone in Muggle London, possibly for Christmas. From all indications, it was unlikely that he had returned to London over the Christmas break, and purchased it then, but that is also an outside possibility. Do we know whether the policy of allowing students to remain in residence over term breaks was already in place in Dippett's day? What has been established is that Riddle was 16 when he put himself in the diary, and that he did that at some point *after* June 1943. If the same sort of monitoring of magic use by underage wizards in Muggle environments was in place at the time, the most likely date for the diary insertion would have been upon his return to Hogwarts in September at the beginning of his 6th year. We are not sure when during the year Tom Riddle's birthday falls. Only that he was deffinitely 16 when he put a version of himself into the diary. At some point in 1943. In order to be 16 in the middle of 1943, Riddle must then have been born at some point between September 2 1926 and September 1 1927. His first year began with the fall term in September 1938 and he finished school with the summer term of 1945. Yes, Harriet is right, Riddle *could* have been born in 1926. He could have also been born in 1927. We do not know which, and will not find out unless Rowling gives us some clue as to just when during the year his birthday falls. From jodel at aol.com Mon Jan 27 21:25:59 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 16:25:59 EST Subject: The wizarding world and empire/Grindlewald Message-ID: <122.1dfa878e.2b66fde7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50811 Ebony asks; >>If the wizarding world did not mirror the Muggle one in any way... ...then why are Dean Thomas and Angelina Johnson named thusly? << You are absolutely rignt. Rowling's world does mirror the real one far enough that it seems that many of the persons of African decent in England came there by way of the West Indies. Families adopting the names of plantation owners in Jamaica, et als. The existence of empire in her world's history is obvious. Without that assumption there is not parallel and point of connection between her Muggle world and ours, outside her pages. Which is pretty much necessary to the reading of the text. Why are we eving arguing about it? In Dean Thomas's case, the canon information points to the liklihood that he may be Muggle-born. And Angelina's name (as well as Lee Jordan's) certainly indicates the strong possibility of same sort of emergence from the Muggle world at some point in their families' histories as well. (Much of this reasoning is moot, since these students were not even identified as black until the American edition. Although I believe that Lee Jordan always had dreadlocks.) We do not know the state of magical terchnology in tribal Africa during the 16th -18th centuries, the era that the African slave trade was most active worldwide. It is quite possible that the level of magic and communications in tribal society was such that being a wizard in itself was not enough to prevent capture and sale into slavery in the new world. It certainly would not prevent such in the case of children of magical ancestry who were captured and transported as such. However, we did see native African shamen in attendence at the QWC. So there is a modern day magical culture alive and (presumably) well in sub-Saharan Africa. As to whether there is any sort of representitive of this culture at Hogwarts, does one dare to direct attention to the ever-enigmatic Blaise Zabini, or is that too long a stretch? However, I take stroing issue with the evocation of the mention of Grindlewald as constituting any kind of evidence of "knowledge of conquest and empire". We have *no indication whatsoever* of what kind of threat Grindlewald was represntative of in his day. What we know of Grindlewald consists of; 1. He was a Dark Wizard. 2. He has a germanic name. 3. Albus Dumbledore defeated him in 1945. We do NOT know that he was actually a German citizen. (Can anyone prove he wasn't, say, a Yank? No, not even that.) We do NOT know that he proposed any racial "isms" or indeed any sort of isms, whatsoever. We do not know that he ever aspired to being any sort of a Dark "Lord". (It stands to reason that the majority of Dark wizards don't. They just constitute a serious threat to their neighbors -- and their decendents.) But people run away with the date and the name and keep building him up as Hitler's more effective answer to Cornelius Fudge. It's "fanon" damnit. There is no supporting evidence for it. The politics of the wizarding world does not exactly mirror that of the Muggle world. The WW may not even have *been* at war during Riddle's school days. And Dumbledore's status as being arguably the "greatest" wizard of the 20th century is a lot more likely to rest upon those 12 uses of dragon's blood and the subjects of his collaboration with Flamel than it does on having defeated Grindlewald. It is not *necessary* that Dumbledore be a "war hero" in order to be regarded as "great". Everything we've been shown of his character leans more to his being a "great humanitarian", instead. Even if Voldemort *is* afraid of him. -JOdel (grumpily) From jodel at aol.com Mon Jan 27 21:25:49 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 16:25:49 EST Subject: Squib or Muggle? Message-ID: <7b.850751b.2b66fddd@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50812 Harriet states; >>I think that squibs are witches and wizards with possibly 'dormant' magical abilities. I guess a muggle can be born from a wizard and a witch but I don't really think that that's what a squib is. I don't think Filch is a muggle, for example.<< And Dumbledore also makes a statement to that effect, doesn't he? Or am I getting misled by fanon? I think that Squibs are wizards with some sort of genetic mutation or other damage to their genome which keeps them from being able to express magic. But they appear to be able to operate normally within a magical world in every particular which does not require actual spellcasting. Filtch has no difficulty seeing or communicating with the Hogwarts ghosts, for example. And it is most probable that what he sees is the castle once he steps outside it, rather than the ruin which is all that a Muggle would see. It is also likely that he would be able to see the Leaky Cauldron from a London street, use the floo network or portkey (brooms are rather more iffy), and go through the barrier at Platform 9 3/4, although none of thoise postulations has yet been established in canon. It is doubtful whether Muggle repeling charms would deflect him, either. (Otherwise one rather suspects that the students would have tried it.) It is uncertain whether he would be able to brew an effective potion, since it seems likely from the sort of havoc that goes on in Potions class that magic *is* being used, but without the control that is provided by focusing it through a wand. >From the other end, there may very well be Muggles who are "near misses" where it comes to regestering as being magical. It is probable that these are the Muggles who occasionally do manifest as ghosts after death, or the people who actually manage to see them. Such "near misses" are the people who found and operate psychical research societies out in the Muggle world. Some of them may be the decendents of Squibs, or the non-magical children of magical-Muggle crosses which carry an incomplete or otherwise inactive set of magical genes. It is uncertain whether these "near misses" could also operate within the magical world as effectively as Squibs do. If they can, it is possible that these "almost wizards" are the equivalent of Muggle-born Squibs. (And Petunia, and even Dudley Dursley could concievably be among them. There is magic in their family, after all.) But I doubt that this is a point which Rowling will find it necessary to establish in the series. -JOdel From stbinch at actionsd.com Mon Jan 27 21:30:32 2003 From: stbinch at actionsd.com (Steve Binch) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:30:32 -0700 Subject: Yellow Rat Spell - Maybe it really did work References: <1043694728.6960.46541.m7@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <006b01c2c64b$520ac6c0$2101a8c0@ACTIONSTEEL.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 50813 I was just thinking about this spell that Ron casts on scabbers: Sunshine, daisies, buttermellow, Turn this stupid fat rat yellow. It obviously didn't work... or did it? What if yellow means to be afraid instead of the color? We know that Petigrew was brave enough to stand against Black, but now he seems to be afraid of everything/everyone? What if this seamingly simple spell cast by Ron, is the only thing that keeps Petigrew from having the courage to stand against Voldimort? Any thought? Insight? Previous discussions? -Steve From golden_faile at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 21:34:17 2003 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 13:34:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030127213417.58624.qmail@web41110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50814 My all time favorite line is from GOF when Ron is giving Molly a hard time about his dress robes and she says(something like this anyway): "Go starkers and Harry make sure you get a picture, I could use a good laugh." or how about at the world cup when the Ministry official is trying to get old Archie into a pair of trousers and he says: " I like a nice breeze around my privates." Laila Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From StarHermione86 at cs.com Mon Jan 27 21:41:17 2003 From: StarHermione86 at cs.com (StarHermione86 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 16:41:17 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Yellow Rat Spell - Maybe it really did work Message-ID: <195.14a38b1e.2b67017d@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50815 In a message dated 1/27/03 1:33:23 PM Pacific Standard Time, stbinch at actionsd.com writes: > I was just thinking about this spell that Ron casts on scabbers: > > Sunshine, daisies, buttermellow, > Turn this stupid fat rat yellow. > > It obviously didn't work... or did it? > I was thinking along the lines of maybe it WOULD work on an actual rat. We find out, however, that scabbers is an animagus. That could make a difference in whether or not a spell would work. Sheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From urbana at charter.net Mon Jan 27 21:42:31 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 21:42:31 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Obsessed Readers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50816 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "draco382 " wrote: > If you want, you could always change your user settings to "No > Email". This would mean that you don't get the messages in > your email inbox, but would be able to check them at the > groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups website. > > I'm not sure if this is what you were saying...i hope its helpful. > Actually my user settings ARE at "no mail". I gave up many weeks ago on having all these emails enter my email box, since I already get at least 100 emails per day from various other lists I'm on, friends, etc. I do come to the Yahoogroups website to read the messages, but it seems like even though I just read messages at 11:00 p.m. before going to bed, there are already another 50-70+ by 8:00 the next morning, and yet another 50-100 show up before I get home and turn that computer on. AAAACK. I guess I had some weird idea I'd be able to keep up with reading about ALL the topics, including the really long messages, and now I realize I won't. Now that I've gotten into all this wonderful Harry Potter theorizing, I hate to miss any of it. If I can't get a Time Turner, could I at least get a 26-hour day?? PS congrats to pippin on Eight-Legged Freaks - great filk!! Anne U (*please* return to your regular HP programming ... sorry for the digression) From chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 21:46:50 2003 From: chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com (alora ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 21:46:50 -0000 Subject: Cauldrons & Bill Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50817 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carolyn " wrote: >> My question is about cauldrons. In the first book, a cauldron is on > Harry's school supply list, and he contemplates getting a solid gold > one. My question is, what do the students do with their cauldrons > once they get to school? It's not very practical to think that they > carry their cauldron around with them until Potions class, because > cauldrons are heavy. I also don't think they use them for homework > purposes, because it would make sense that the only potion making > students do is under the watch of Professor Snape--what if something > went wrong? So what then, is the purpose of the cauldron? > I always assumed that Hogwarts' supply list was like my children's in school. When I buy the supplies, they go to my son's classroom and become "community property." They pile all the spirals in a certain storage area and whenever a student needs one, they get a new one. The same goes for pencils, paper, writing tablets and paper for art. I assumed that all students bought a cauldron and that that cauldron is used a some point in the year, such as when one someone melts one (Neville). Just my two cents worth.. Alora From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 21:48:54 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 21:48:54 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's childhood In-Reply-To: <20030127210436.36660.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50818 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Andrea wrote: > --- manawydan wrote: > > 2. How did he later find out his family history, given that his mother was > > dead and presumably (if he was in a muggle orphanage) there were no > > wizard relatives nearby to bring him up? > > I picture a pregnant Mrs. Riddle, abandoned by her husband for being magic > and cast out by her family for consorting with a Muggle, knowing she was > weak and there's a strong possibility she won't survive the birth. So she > writes out a long letter to her unborn child, which she gives to someone > at the orphanage and insists he be given the letter at a certain age. > Alternatively, if you don't want to suppose that Riddle's mother feared she would not survive childbirth, Riddle could have found out about his mother's family after his arrival at Hogwarts. It would be easy to believe that there would be *someone* there he could ask about the name "Marvolo", who would remember the man himself (Riddle's grandfather), and could tell him very much. Riddle probably found out all he could from different people and began putting things together. One thing I'm not sure of is how he made the connection between Marvolo and Salazar Slytherin. I could theorize that he eventually was able to see some personal records of Marvolo's which either spelled it out or pointed to other possible clues. Maybe JKR will tell us more eventually. Marvolo himself I believe to have been dead by then since we have heard nothing of Voldemort hating his "filthy Wizard grandfather" who, if he were alive, would also have had to have abandoned TMR. In a similar vein, in the Muggle world, I'm sure an intelligent boy like Riddle would find ways of investigating his surname (and don't forget, he'd always been able to "charm the people [he] needed" to help tease information out of people). Imagine his shock and fury to find that the father who abandoned him was alive, well, and very rich! Annemehr From lupinesque at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 22:24:54 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 22:24:54 -0000 Subject: Yellow Rat Spell - Maybe it really did work In-Reply-To: <006b01c2c64b$520ac6c0$2101a8c0@ACTIONSTEEL.COM> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50819 Steve Binch wrote: > It obviously didn't work... or did it? > > What if yellow means to be afraid instead of the color? We know that > Petigrew was brave enough to stand against Black, but now he seems to be > afraid of everything/everyone? What if this seamingly simple spell cast by > Ron, is the only thing that keeps Petigrew from having the courage to stand > against Voldimort? > > Any thought? Insight? Previous discussions? WOW. That is SUCH a great idea! A related possibility might be that it is this spell that keeps Harry safe. Pettigrew has *just* met Harry Potter and thoughts of murder might be brewing in his mind . . . but then Ron inadvertently turns him into a coward and thereby prevents Scabbers from scuttling over to Harry's bed and slitting his throat with his rodent incisors during the next three years of golden opportunity. Amy Z From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Mon Jan 27 22:32:50 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 22:32:50 -0000 Subject: SHIPping For the Long Haul In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50820 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David " wrote: > Jim Ferer wrote: > > > That line of thinking calls up this question for R/Hers: are you > > R/Hers for a date or two or three, or even a whole school year, or > are > > you in it for the long haul? How do you define R/H victory? It's > > important, because some of us may be debating very different > things. > > Yes, I agree that in shipping debates there is plenty of potential > for confusion between what is seen as occurring in canon, and what > may eventually happen post-canon. > > My definition of R/H victory would simply be that the later books > (OOP onward) make it beyond reasonable doubt that GOF (and POA) were > indeed foreshadowing Hermione having an interest in Ron. That would > be entirely compatible with your position, which I think you > describe as H/H. > > > This H/Her believes that Ron and Hermione will probably date, maybe > > all year some year. I know Ron likes Hermione, and Hermione is at > > least his friend, so I can cheerfully concede all the looks and > nods > > and winks and punctuation marks we've been throwing around the last > > week or two. > > Now this raises another area of hidden difference which may surface > as disagreements that are more apparent than real. That is, what do > we understand by the nature of a 'ship'. > > You see, I have a lot of trouble envisaging any of the > trio 'dating'. Perhaps it's a difference of language across the > water, but I connote dating with the case where two people don't > know each other very well at all, but have decided they want to know > each other better. I think H, H, and R are way past that. > > I think the introduction of a romantic - 'eros' - element into > either of Hermione's friendships in the trio ought to result in > breaking the mould of what we understand by romance. Thus for > example we might see a tacit understanding between two of them that > they have rights of interference in each other's lives and behaviour > with no public declaration of being 'an item' or much physicality of > behaviour. > > That might mean that either camp in the fandom could claim victory > under a scenario different from what seems often to be envisaged. > > > I also think Ron and Hermione are wildly unsuited in the long run. > > Now this is the essence of why I don't go along with the H/H case as > often put forward: that post-canon they are suited. I have three > objections, in order of increasing radicality: > > How can a third party know whether a couple are 'suited' for each > other in advance? > > How can you predict from teens what the adult will be? > > Given that one *has* determined under some definition that two > people are 'suited', why is that a good thing for them? > > These questions are equally applicable to those who see H/R as a > long term suited couple, of course. > > For me there is no 'long haul', therefore, that is sensible to talk > about, just random speculation. Professor Trelawney, bless her, is > living proof of that. > I think that, for some, the 'ship they 'sail' has to due with a visceral reaction to the pairing (they're suited/not suited), for others it's based on their interpretation of the canon (frequency with with Hermione blushes in Ron's presence as opposed to Harry's ...) and for most it is, perhaps, a combination of the two. Viscerally: I *don't like* R/H (the romance not the individuals). I'd say that H/H is my favourite but ... Hr/Neville? Hr/Draco? H/Cho? etc ... they're fine with me too. Canonically: I think most would agree that Ron does indeed show signs of having romantic feelings for Hermione, but is that enough to diagnose a R/H relationship at some future point? There are certain things that we *know* to be true (to date) in canon : Viktor has romantic feelings for Hermione, Harry has romantic feelings for Cho, Harry does *not* have romantic feelings for Ginny, Ginny has romantic feelings for Harry and, of course, Ron's inclination towards Hermione. Hermione's feelings (IMHO) are more ambiguous. She may or may not suspect that Ron has *feelings* for her but I think that it is unclear what, if anything, she feels for him. I certainly don't believe that Hemrione is schooled in artifice - she's not leading Krum on or using him to force Ron to 'show his hand' so to speak. I think that Hermione is genuinely intrigued by Viktor Krum, the first boy/man who's ever declared a depth of (romantic) feeling for her. I think that she is, perhaps, still working out what she feels for him, gratitude and 'friendly' affection or something more, and may explore that avenue further. I've always thought that Hermione ultimately did accept Krum's invitation but was worried about Ron's reaction and that perhaps her *smile* at the end of GoF (when Ron asks Krum for his autograph) was relief that Ron had apparently "gotten over" his antipathy for Krum. However, this isn't to say that Hermione will remain with Viktor. It's possible that she'll realise that she *doesn't* return his feelings and perhaps re-evaluate her feelings for Ron or Harry. I include Harry because, though I do appreciate the many arguments made for R/H, there remain things that bother me about the R/H assumption - in the niggling, there-has-got-to-be-more-to-it kind of way. There is always some sort of misdirection/foreshadowing surounding Harry, either with his adversaries, his abilities, his history, etc. - why should his friendships (the trio dynamic) be exempt from it. For example: It was Hermione's voice that Harry heard calling to him when he experienced his first (and last) Veela effect. Is there any significance to this? Why her and not say, Ginny or Mr. Weasley or one of the other Weasleys? It may seem inocuous but then again who gave any significance to the pleasant little convo. Harry had with the Brazilian Boa in PS? Erica From jferer at yahoo.com Mon Jan 27 22:52:41 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 22:52:41 -0000 Subject: SHIPping For the Long Haul In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50821 Jim Ferer (me):"That line of thinking calls up this question for R/Hers: are you R/Hers for a date or two or three, or even a whole school year, or are you in it for the long haul? How do you define R/H victory? It's important, because some of us may be debating very different things." David:"Yes, I agree that in shipping debates there is plenty of potential for confusion between what is seen as occurring in canon, and what may eventually happen post-canon." Exactly, although I might say 'late-canon or post-canon.' David:"My definition of R/H victory would simply be that the later books (OOP onward) make it beyond reasonable doubt that GOF (and POA) were indeed foreshadowing Hermione having an interest in Ron. That would be entirely compatible with your position, which I think you describe as H/H." That seems to me a very modest goal, one you are likely to achieve. I expect more from my ship, that Harry and Hermione are suited (destined?) to be long-term partners. David:"You see, I have a lot of trouble envisaging any of the trio 'dating'. Perhaps it's a difference of language across the water, but I connote dating with the case where two people don't know each other very well at all, but have decided they want to know each other better. I think H, H, and R are way past that." I was not really satisfied with that word, either, and I'm more than willing to adopt another. "Have a romance?" Perhaps. "An affair?" No, because that presupposes physical intimacy that to me is unnecessary during the Hogwarts years anyway. It's affairs of the heart we're discussing. David:"Thus for example we might see a tacit understanding between two of them that they have rights of interference in each other's lives and behaviour with no public declaration of being 'an item' or much physicality of behaviour." All three have those 'rights' now, it seems. I mean, my mother feels she has those rights of interference, but there's no romance. I believe that there's more, a special place in the participant's feelings. David:"That might mean that either camp in the fandom could claim victory under a scenario different from what seems often to be envisaged." That's the problem and the reason I posed the question. I see Harry and Hermione as likely suited for life (in the future), not just for being an item for a while. David:"Now this is the essence of why I don't go along with the H/H case as often put forward: that post-canon they are suited. I have three objections, in order of increasing radicality: How can a third party know whether a couple are 'suited' for each other in advance? How can you predict from teens what the adult will be?" We already know that SHIPping 14 and 15 year olds makes no sense, really. I do it because it's a great window into these characters. To do it at all, we have to make predictions that what we see in the fourteen year old is prologue for the adult. If we can't make those assumptions for the sake of argument, then we shouldn't be here at all. David:"Given that one *has* determined under some definition that two people are 'suited', why is that a good thing for them?" Well, I wish I'd met someone suited for *me*. "Suited," for me, means that "this pair are likely to have long-tem happiness and success as a couple." By that, if it's not good for them, they're not suited. David:"And in terms of fictional characters, I feel that there may be more to be done on working out the implications of the fact that so many of the great fictional romances are tragic." There's plenty of potential for that here. One romance we don't talk about much, the fairly one-sided Krum/Hermione romance, is very likely to end tragically. Other romances might also. Jim Ferer From dvargo77 at aol.com Mon Jan 27 22:20:42 2003 From: dvargo77 at aol.com (danielle_vargo ) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 22:20:42 -0000 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50822 This is my first posting - it's so hard to keep up, hope no one gave this one yet: My favorite line is from the first book and since I just lent it out I can't word it exactly, but it was also in the movie. It was when Ron got knocked out after playing chess and Harry decides to go on alone. Hermione tells him he is a great wizard. And he says he is not as good as her. She says there are more important things than cleverness, like bravery and friendship. - Danielle From starropal at hotmail.com Mon Jan 27 22:26:42 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 16:26:42 -0600 Subject: Ron and the Trouble with Veela Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50823 Star Opal [Me]: > >But then why make her part veela at all? Why not just keep her a >beautiful, > >capable (she is a champion) witch with a French accent? Torsten wrote: >Maybe just to add one more point for fans to argue about - working it'nit? ^_~ >what's at work here, Ron's >hormones or Fleur's possible special power? ^_~ The world may never know -- But I still say FPSP! >Why point it out? To add another red herring and to give the reader a >better impression >of just how gorgeous she is. Oh Geeze, you know I'm beginning to get really paranoid about these books since joining this list. EVERYTHING is a potential red herring. Star quoted: "Ron went purple. He stared up at her, opened his mouth to reply, but nothing came out except a faint gurgling noise. But she wasn't entirely right about that. As the girl crossed the Hall, many boys' heads turned, and some of them seemed to have become temporarily speechless, just like Ron." - GoF ch 16 pg 252 Torsten: >So why just "many boys' heads", why not "all" or "nearly all"? It's very >unlikely the >typical student has that much willpower. And why aren't the teachers >affected? I go back to my PART veela theory. Her grandmother was a veela, right? So that would make Fleur only a quarter veela, with a quarter of the powers. So not "all" but "many boys' heads turned." Webster's says: Man.y: more, most 1)consisting of some large, indefinite number (of persons or things); numerous 2) relatively numerous (preceded by as, too, ect.) So many can mean most, or large indefinite number. Perhaps even "nearly all"? "Some of them seemed to have become temporarily speechless, just like Ron." So now we "some", stay with me, I do have a point coming. When Harry is under Imperius the first time he resists, but doesn't completely break it. While "[Ron] had had much more difficulty with the curse than Harry..." So this tells me that there are different levels of effect that mind/action controlling spells/curses/charms have on different people. So, especially in a weaker state (such as passed down a blood line), her powers would have varying effects on different people. Some would not be effected like Harry, others would turn their heads, and still others would be temporarily speechless, like Ron. As for teachers: Look who's teaching that year. Now if Lockhart were still teaching DADA we might've seen something, heh. Star again: > >But while Ron does tend to act or speak without thinking, its not things > >that are completely out of character for him. Like defending his family >and > >friends against insults. BUT asking someone out on a date isn't something > >that Ron would normally do, much less in front of EVERYONE: Torsten again: >He didn't do it till then, since he's not been interested in girls before. >Ron acts without >thinking when he's overwhelmed by emotions. We most often see it when it's >based on >anger or lately jealousy, true, but here's it's love or strong sexual >attraction, call it what >you want. Look at the next part of my message. No matter what, it still sounds like he wasn't in control: Star: > >Sounds like a spell to me. "I don't know what made me do it!" "... it >sort > >of came over me..." "I just sort of came to my senses.." Torsten: >But if Fleur's supposed-to-be Veela powers had been at work there, why was >just Ron >behaving oddly? There were plenty other people around, but Ron mentions >none of >them acting strangely, and he saw the whole scene of Fleur and Cedric >talking >surrounded by peers before he lost his senses. >Remember, "As the girl crossed the Hall, >If they were affected there, they should have been affected in the >corridor, too. Remember we only have Ron's POV. "I was just walking past her in the entrance hall - she was standing there talking to Diggory - and it sort of came over me - and I asked her!" We don't know, who, how many, or in what state. He was probably walking by glanced and didn't notice anything after that. That is until he "came to [his] senses" and "ran for it" in which case I don't think he was looking around to see the answers to those questions. Torsten: >Ron's affected by Fleur's looks just like Harry is by Cho's, Ron just shows >his feelings >more openly than Harry, all the time. But Harry didn't _let_ Cho catch the snitch. That would be against the norm, if he did it would be more applicable. Ron DID ask Fleur out, a beautiful champion, three years older than him, who was talking to Cedric already, in front of everyone. Now if he'd of lassoed Fleur, maybe... (j/k) >She wants to affect Ron at the dinner (like: 'I would give everything to >get ze >bouillabaise' ^_~) LOL I just got this image of a Harry Potter outtakes. There's Fleur plotting with the other Beauxbatons. "Leeve it to me girls! I will get ze bouillabase!" *clears throat* But I digress... I don't think she's doing it on purpose. I agree, if she was so sneaky I don't think the Goblet would have chosen her. I'm thinking that most the time, its a subconscious power, but she _can_ increase it if she chooses. >Time to get out my main argument: Look at what exactly Veela power make men >behave - they want to impress. They tell lies and consider to do >'impressive', foolish, >dangerous things like jumping out of the Top Box. We see none of Fleur's >admirers do >that, they are simply stunned, as teenage boys tend to be when confronted >with a >gorgeous girl. I call part veela theory! >Also, she's a teenage girl that impresses other teenagers, but except for >that >photographer no older male seems to be as affected as strongly, though >Veela power >makes no difference there. First of all we don't know how old the photographer is. We know he is a man, so at least 18, and we know he's "paunchy" which means he has a pot belly (according to Webster's). Second we do not know his resistance abilities. Then there's also Roger Davies: "Roger Davies was watching her talk with a very dazed look on his face, and he kept missing his mouth with his fork." I'll admit straight off this one is iffy, but taken with Ron's reaction, _I_ think its something. I couldn't remember what year he is, so I can't comment on the age thing. >More, if she had the power, shouldn't she have the drawbacks, too? >Finally, if she had the power and was aware of it, she would show some >reaction when >someone (like Harry) easily resists it. Part veela theory! Rebecca: >And I think it'll be of more import in the >next book. But that's just me. I agree. I DO think she'll be back, as an assistant though, and if she comes back, than more will be made of her veela-ness. >ps I'm still waiting for something odd about Trevor *gives Trevor a wary glance* I'm telling you he isn't all he seems! Star Opal who wraps herself in the Part Veela Theory tighter than a Beauxbaton with a shall in winter. From BriBearBaby at backstreet-wallpaper.net Mon Jan 27 22:56:19 2003 From: BriBearBaby at backstreet-wallpaper.net (Patty) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 17:56:19 -0500 Subject: What year was Voldemort born? References: <20030127034959.60711.qmail@web40511.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00a001c2c657$4e916100$0101a8c0@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 50824 >Well, since we've placed CoS as being in 1992, and Tom >Riddle was a prefect the year he set the basilisk >loose, he was either a 5th, 6th or 7th year in 1942, >so, he was born in either 1927, 1926, or 1925. So >it's definitely not 1930. >~Kathryn Kathryn, if I'm not mistaken, Tom Riddle says to Harry that he preserved his 16 year old self in the pages of the diary. So assuming that all Hogwarts' students begin their training at the age of 11, then it would stand to reason that that at the age of 16, Tom was in his 5th year at Hogwarts. So that narrows it down a little further as well. Patty [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From heidit at netbox.com Mon Jan 27 23:23:06 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 19:23:06 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:What year was Voldemort born? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50825 Patty wrote: **Tom Riddle says to Harry that he preserved his 16 year old self in the pages of the diary. So assuming that all Hogwarts' students begin their training at the age of 11, then it would stand to reason that that at the age of 16, Tom was in his 5th year at Hogwarts. So that narrows it down a little further as well.** But Harry will be 16 only in his 6th year, whereas Ron turns 16 at the end of his fifth year - but will be 16 in part of his 6t year as well. That can't be used for determining the year with pinpoint accuracy. From jodel at aol.com Mon Jan 27 23:33:39 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 18:33:39 EST Subject: Voldemort and Slytherin Message-ID: <6b.83ae003.2b671bd3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50826 Tom also asks: << Does anyone have any idea why Slytherin's descendants weren't watched with the utmost scrutiny? >> Probably because they gave no one any reason to. All four houses and probably all four of the founders' bloodlines have produced "great" wizards and witches. People who are still regarded as heroes. And all four have probably produced Dark wizards as well. Although Slytherin House has produced more of them, and Dark "Lords" may be a Slytherin specialty. But, Harry's perceptions aside, most Slytherin wizards are probably no more evil than any other sort of polititian. And when no Chamber turned up after a few hundred years, it was probably decided that the whole story was a fake. Something Salazar had put about to cause distress among his former colleagues. As to why the Chamber wasn't found; the rarity of parselmouth *is* probably the most likely cause. (Although I did facitiously suggest at one point that after Slytherin had shaken the dust of Hogwarts off his feet, he had gone off to found Durmstrang and run it the way he thought a wizarding school *should* be run.) There may or may not have been a parselmouth or two from Slytherin's line at Hogwarts since his day, but just being a parselmouth doesn't assure you of finding the opening of the Chamber. And, first, you have to go looking for it. It took Tom five years to find it and that was with constant effort. The legend never said that there was a *treasure* inside the Chamber. It said that there was a *monster*. Sure, *I'd* go on a *treasure* hunt. Who wouldn't? But how many school kids (apart from Hagrid) *want* to go and find themselves a monster? -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Mon Jan 27 23:33:42 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 18:33:42 EST Subject: Voldemort and Grindelwald (WAS: What year was Voldemort born?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50827 Tom comments; << In other words, did Dumbledore encounter Riddle/Voldemort somehow in connection with his battle with Grindelwald? I mean, where exactly does someone learn the Dark Arts, anyways? One would presume that someone should be taught. So, who does the teaching? Dumbledore did say that Riddle "consorted with the very worst of our kind." Perhaps he means that Grindelwald was among that number. >> I have always suspected that the "1945" clue, if it is indeed a clue, has a lot more to do with Tom Riddle/Voldemort than it does with WWII and Hitler. For one thing, so far as we've been *told*, Riddle knew nothing of the WW when he entered the WW. And yet by the end of his first year he was searching for the Chamber. Five years later he knew how to create a Dark artefact like the diary. Now, young Tom may have been a ticking time bomb, up to his ears in "issues" when he reached Hogwarts, but he was a human child, and one with no previous knowlege of magic. Somebody "got to" him. He was clearly gotten to by someone who knew he was the last of Slytherin's known decendents, and may very well have been waiting for him to show up. And he was clearly coached in the Dark Arts while he was at Hogwarts. WHat is more, if he "disapeared" immediately upon leaving school, [apart from a guest appearance in Little Hangleton] then he was almost certainly in contact with someone who was able to help him make this possible. Voldemorts are made, not born. He was 'groomed" for that position, much as Harry is being groomed now. His "handlers" no doubt harped on his early mistreatment at the hands of Muggles to point him at Muggles and Muggle-borns and have tacitly told him to "kill". Quite forgetting that Riddle probably has no inborn reason to love wizards either. And I suspect that their creation has made himself more personally powerful than they ever expected or intended. There are some important points, however, which we do not have any information on, and which have a great deal to do with one's reading of the situation. 1. The Dark Arts are not currently taught at Hogwarts (only Defense). But we don't know how long this has been the case. It is quite possible that this is a comparitively recent policy established when Dumbledore became Headmaster. It might not have been the case in Dippett's day. Tom could have learned something of the Dark Arts quite openly. But we have no indication of this in canon. To the best of our knowlege, the Dark Arts may have always been prohibited at Hogwarts. A rather more interesting possibility is in the chronology, as you pointed out; If the Lupin statement quoted in another discussion; that "It wasn't thought that I would be able to attend Hogwarts. But then Dumbledore became Headmaster..." is an indication of just *when* Dumbledore became Headmaster (just before Lupin and the rest of his friends started Hogwarts) the timing of all things related to Voldemort becomes even more suggestive. Lupin and his friends were 22-23 when Voldemort was first defeated, on the night of 10/31/81. (sources; Rowling interview about the time of GoF; "Snape is 35-36 years old" [presumably at the end of the book] Lupin's comment in PoA regarding Snape; "We were in the same year..." Harry is just short of 15 at the end of GoF.) Consequently if they were 20-21 when Harry was born, they would have started Hogwarts around 1969. If Dumbledore had only just become Headmaster, what had he been doing since 1945? Either defeating Grindlewald was no big deal, and no one made a great hero of him for it -- although the Daily Prophet would have assured that he would have been "famous" for it -- and he had been blamelessly teaching at Hogwarts during the intervening period, under either Dippett or a sucession of Headmasters/Headmistresses, or, defeating Grindlewald was a big enough deal that he was offered and had accepted some other job somewhere else, possibly in the Ministry, only returning to Hogwarts as Headmaster. For the academic year beginning 1969. What is particularly suggestive about this second possibility, is the statement, hidden in the summary which Harry is given of the events leading up to the first defeat of Voldemort, that Voldemort had *first* surfaced and begun attracting followers *11 years before Harry was born* [in 1980]. Or, in other words, the year that Harry's parents started Hogwarts and Dumbledore is clearly stated as being Headmaster of Hogwarts and firmly entrenched at the school, rather than anywhere else in the Ministry of Magic or any other position of power within the wizarding government. Such as being in a position to have monitored Riddle's subsequent activities. Therefore, the question is; was it purely by chance that Voldemort only went public the year that Harry's parents started Hogwarts? Or did the fact that Albus Dumbledore was now Headmaster (rather than in any other official capacity elsewhere) have something to do with it? Was Voldemort waiting until Dumbledore was out of the way before resurfacing? Was the fact that he was almost unrecognizable a side effect of his search for immortality, a deliberate weapon of terror, or for some other reason? Just how long has the Riddle/Dumbledore duel been in progress. And did Riddle inherit it from his teachers? I would suggest that Grindlewald was regarded as a nuisance rather than a threat (by anyone who had heard of him. I propose that the name is about as genuine as the name "Voldemort" is) until after his defeat, and that something in the investigation following that defeat suggested (to Dumbledore, although possibly not to others) that there was an organization behind him and that there was more going on beneath the surface than one Dark wizard carrying on in a manner that might pose a potential a problem to the WW's security. What is more, I suspect that Dumbledore didn't need to go seek him out. He was already there, within Hogwarts, itself. (Possibly the reason that the Dark Arts are no longer taught at Hogwarts? Hm?) I'd like to know more about Grindlewald myself. But this whole setup has the sort of elaborate trappings which suggest that it could turn out to be a particularly gaudy and distracting red herring. We'll have a better indication of the matter if Grindlewald (who to date has been merely a name on a chocolate frog card) is mentioned at *any* point in the 5th book. If he is significant, it is about time he was reintroduced to the story line. -JOdel From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 28 00:10:14 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 00:10:14 -0000 Subject: The wizarding world and empire (was Democracy and prejudice) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50828 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ebony " wrote: > > If the wizarding world did not mirror the Muggle one in any way... > > ...then why are Dean Thomas and Angelina Johnson named thusly? > > Now, I do understand that there are quite a number of > African immigrants who live in Britain. However, their names are > somewhat different from those of West Indian heritage... who > *were* descended from slaves. > > It is certain that many Africans, American Natives, Asians, etc. > have European names today. Yet it is Dean and Angelina's *last* > names... their family names... that flag to me that there was > indeed something like the Middle Passage in the wizarding world. > There had to have been. Sure, you can rationalize this by saying > that both Dean *and* Angelina had ethnically British fathers (in > which case they are not simply black, but biracial--and JKR is > misnaming them). I disagree slightly with you and Eloise. First names of some African first generation immigrants I know include Jennifer, Cynthia, Adabi, Henry, Kene, Edward and Sandra. Surnames include Ococ, Adaobi, Gibbs, Afoakwah, Okafor, and Barber. The combination can be completely African, a British sounding first name with an African surname, or a name that sounds completely British: not through slavery, simply through a British ancestor or by marriage. I also think you may be making a U.S. culture specific assumption here, Ebony. Many, many black people in the UK have mixed ethnic backgrounds. Interracial marriage is very common in the modern UK. It was also pretty common in the old British Empire; it was simply that the British whites hardly ever *talked* about it. It doesn't appear much in the history books, either. JKR would not be 'misnaming' Dean as 'black' if he had an ethnically white wizarding British father and an ethnically black muggle Carribbean mother. Dean would very probably describe *himself* as 'black British'. And Angelina Johnson could have got that name through either muggle slavery, or the muggle Empire. She could be the muggle born child of West Indian immigrants. Or she could also be the descendant of, say, a white British Civil Engineer who went to work in Africa and married a local girl, who turned out to be a witch. And then his wizarding son Chuekma Johnson decided to use his British connections to immigrate with his wife to the UK. Pick one; because you could find equivalents to both those family histories in Britain. I personally think JKR is avoiding using modern prejudices. Instead of risking readers bringing their own prejudices to the reading, she's using the muggle/wizard divide as a metaphor for racial/religious prejudice. Petunia Dursley's attitude to her sister's marriage is very similar to the way that interracial marriages were treated by the white middle class in Britain (until very recently). The 'offending' relative was referred to as seldom as possible and the family would go to great lengths to make sure the spouse's colour was never mentioned. Harry is the wizarding son of a muggle born mother and a wizarding father. The Dursley's treat him with much the same distaste for his very existence that a bigoted white UK family might display for their black nephew (who is the son of a white mother and a black father). Lucius Malfoy displays the same kind of prejudice towards the 'muggle borns' that too many Brits display towards immigrants (or 'asylum seekers'). Is 'muggle born' a metaphor for 'immigrant into the Wizarding World'? Interesting thought. Ebony: > If there was no empire in the history of JKR's > wizarding world, then why are they being educated in Britain? Because they live in Britain! JKR appears to be trying to reflect the ethnic makeup of modern muggle Britain. That ethnic makeup is largely a result of the old muggle British Empire. It says nothing about whether there was an equivalent Wizarding British Empire. The non white characters at Hogwarts are representative of the kids I would expect to find at a modern British school. Hogwarts has approximately 25% muggle borns. Large numbers of UK witches and wizards are half bloods. There have been people of African, Chinese or Indian subcontinental descent in Britain for two or three centuries now (though immigration in *large* numbers only started in the 1950's). It would be much more surprising if the British Wizarding World was 100% white. The ethnic makeup of Hogwarts does not say anything about an historical Wizarding Colonial Office, or, say, the attitude of the British WW to Egyptian magic. It just says that, hide away as it may, the WW is being affected by the muggle world. > Yet as Edward Said so > famously stated in Culture and Imperialism, "Without empire, there > is no modern European novel as we know it." Even though she does > a noble job "teaching tolerance", as it were, in her novels, there > still are vestiges of the pernicious legacy of empire in her work... > and this is textual evidence that absolutely cannot be refuted. I think that this is because modern Britain is still affected by the legacy of its Empire. If JKR wants to reflect modern Britain, then she is going to reflect the legacy of Empire, like it or not. I would be much more worried that JKR was showing *the pernicious legacy of empire* if her Hogwarts was entirely white and middle/upper class. [The main beneficiaries of the Empire]. It isn't. Class wise, the muggle intake ranges from milkman's sons up; the wizarding intake includes werewolves and half giants. I think we can safely assume that Hagrid and possibly Lupin are close to the bottom of the Wizarding class structure. I'm not terribly concerned that the Trio is entirely white and middle class; JKR is from that background and is probably sticking to the rule of 'write what you know about' for her major characters. Pip!Squeak From dicentra at xmission.com Tue Jan 28 00:37:14 2003 From: dicentra at xmission.com (dicentra63 ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 00:37:14 -0000 Subject: Yellow Rat Spell - Maybe it really did work In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50829 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z " wrote: > Steve Binch wrote: > > What if this seemingly simple spell cast by > > Ron, is the only thing that keeps Petigrew from having the courage > > to stand against Voldimort? > > > > Any thought? Insight? Previous discussions? > > A related possibility might be that it is this spell that keeps > Harry safe. Pettigrew has *just* met Harry Potter and thoughts of > murder might be brewing in his mind . . . but then Ron > inadvertently turns him into a coward and thereby prevents Scabbers > from scuttling over to Harry's bed and slitting his throat with his > rodent incisors during the next three years of golden opportunity. > Except that Sirius is right: he's not going to take action unless he's directly benefitting from it. Why slit Harry's throat? If he stuck around afterwards, they'd figure out he did it and he'd probably be disposed of. If he fled the scene, he'd have to find another place to hang out. And besides that, killing Harry means something to Pettigrew only if he can tell Voldemort about it, getting brownie points in the process. He doesn't go find his master until he *has* to at the end of PoA. Sorry, the Yellow Spell might make Pettigrew a coward, but by this time it's overkill. --Dicentra From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jan 28 00:42:18 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 00:42:18 -0000 Subject: SHIP Subjects Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50830 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Penny Linsenmayer wrote: > > With respect to my assertion that JKR may not have heard the term "cute meet" before or intended her PS/SS interactions to work that way, Pippin said: > > <<<< Elizabethan dramatists did, in 1590 or so.>>>>>>>> > > That still doesn't address the issue of her *intent.* I still say she may not have intended the effect that you see. <<< Maybe not. But romantic comedies are as formally constructed as murder mysteries. Whether a particular reader happens to be familiar with the art of story construction or not, it's reasonable for a critic to expect the writer to understand the form they are using. Book One opens with a murder, and we, as readers, expect that any saga that opens with a murder will concern the quest to see justice done. In the same way, if a girl happens across a boy's path while searching for a toad (instead of a handsome prince ), it's reasonable to expect some comic/romantic involvement later. What strikes a chord with the readers and makes them want the characters to connect is the sense that they are emotionally incomplete when apart. This sense is created for both Ginny and Hermione in their opening scenes with Harry and Ron. It isn't created for any of the other female characters. In fact that's one of the biggest complaints people have about the books. Having created this incompleteness, the story should resolve it, or it will always seem unfinished. Shakespeare tried for the realistic "let's all wait to be sure of our feelings" ending in "Love's Labour's Lost", one of his earliest plays, but the general feeling is, it didn't work. The ending is not satisfying. And if *he* couldn't pull it off... Real lives are full of threads that don't go anywhere, abandoned themes, and fizzled romances--which is why most of us can't turn our lives into successful stories without a lot of work. Story construction aside, the shipping argument seems to be one of "two sides of the same coin" versus "opposites attract." Since the theme of the books is that "differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are united" I would think R/H more in keeping with that theme than H/H. But we'll see. We already know that Harry, Hermione and Ron are capable of more than ordinary loyalty and devotion. They were capable of being heroes at eleven, why shouldn't they be capable of marriage at twenty? Pippin who is romantic enough to think that if the people are right for each other, they can agree to wait faithfully till the time and the place are right too. From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 00:49:37 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 16:49:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cauldrons & Bill Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030128004937.67207.qmail@web40505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50831 "Carolyn " wrote: My question is about cauldrons. In the first book, a cauldron is on Harry's school supply list, and he contemplates getting a solid gold one. My question is, what do the students do with their cauldrons once they get to school? It's not very practical to think that they carry their cauldron around with them until Potions class, because cauldrons are heavy. I also don't think they use them for homework purposes, because it would make sense that the only potion making students do is under the watch of Professor Snape--what if something went wrong? So what then, is the purpose of the cauldron? Also in CoS, Hermione had a cauldronw with which to brew the Polyjuice potion. Where did she get it? Why would the students be required to buy something they never use? The cauldrons that are used in Potions class, I've always assumed, were just already there. Soo... does anyone have an explanation for this? Me: I think the cauldrons in Potions class are the ones they purchased in Diagon Alley, and they are probably kept there, although it probably wouldn't be hard to carry them to Potions, either, as they've only got that class once a week. As for Hermione brewing Polyjuice, there can be 2 explanations: 1. She, as a model student, has 2 cauldrons. 2. There are 'school cauldrons' anyone can use - just like with brooms. ----------end this part------- Carolyn also wrote: One more thing... I've read discussions in various places about the full names of the Weasleys. Has anyone considered Bill's full name to be Bilius? Because in PoA, there is the line, "Ron looked at Hermione as if she had gone mad. 'Hermione, if Harry's seen a Grim, that's--that's bad,' he said. 'My--my uncle Bilius saw one and--and he died twenty-four hours later!'" Has anyone considered the possibility that Bill was named after his uncle? It would make sense. Me: In this situation (absolute lack of canon ) your guess is as good as mine, but I think Bill's full name is William. Just look at all the other names in the family: *Arthur* and *Molly* have children named Charlie, Percy, Fred, George, Ron and Ginny. We *know* Ron's full name is Ronald. I think it's pretty safe to assume that Charlie is Charles (not Charlius), Fred is either Fred or Frederic (not Fredius), Percy is probably Percival (maybe Perceus? - doubt it) and George is George. Ginny is harder, it may be Virginia or something else, but she's a girl, so it doesn't matter. Does that seem like a family that would name a kid Bilius? I don't think so. Best regards, Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 00:53:39 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 16:53:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Democracy and prejudice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030128005339.15391.qmail@web40501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50832 "Tom Wall " wrote: Regarding the justice question, I mean in the sense only of wizard events colliding with the muggle world. I.e.: the catalyst event for Sirius going to Azkaban was the death of muggles. If the MoM is connected to the real British government, do you think they'd (the "real" British gov't) allow a 13-time murderer to go to a wizards prison? Me: Yes, since he is a *wizard* - it might be dangerous and bad from the security perspective to put a wizard in a Muggle jail - he'd probably be able to break free even without a wand. Besides, Crouch also doesn't seem the type to let such a murderer to go to a Muggle prison. Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jan 28 00:54:02 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 00:54:02 -0000 Subject: Yellow Rat Spell - Maybe it really did work In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50833 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dicentra63 " wrote: > > And besides that, killing Harry means something to Pettigrew only if he can tell Voldemort about it, getting brownie points in the process.He doesn't go find his master until he *has* to at the end of PoA. > > Sorry, the Yellow Spell might make Pettigrew a coward, but by this time it's overkill. > I think you're on to something! Didn't Hagrid say that the spell he used to turn Dudley into a pig failed because Dudley was so much like a pig already? Maybe the spell to turn Scabbers yellow failed because he was yellow (in the sense of cowardly) already. Pippin From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 01:10:09 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 17:10:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Animal communication Message-ID: <20030128011009.79477.qmail@web40510.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50834 I was reading the Shrieking Shack scene today again, and this suddenly struck me: When Sirius explains how he made friends with Hermione's cat, he says: "Crookshanks, did you call him?" I reread the whole scene from the moment when Padfoot drags Ron into the Whomping Willow twice to make sure, and I am fairly certain that HHR *never* call Crookshanks by its name when Sirius is present. First I thought it was a mistake. Then a thought occured to me that maybe it isn't. Sirius did manage to talk to Crookshanks, obviously, since he did all sorts of errands for him, and Crookshanks was also able to talk to Sirius - Cr told S that Peter escaped from Gryffindor tower. So, to what extent can animals talk to each other? Sirius' phrase "I managed to communicate to him" something or other implies (to me, in any case), that no straightforward exchanges can happen. That is just so contradictory. Getting back to my original point, how did Sirius know the cat was called Crookshanks if its name wasn't mentioned by anyone in that scene? Heh, I can't imagine a dog and a cat having this conversation: C: Hey, Rover! S: My name is Sirius, BTW. C: Oh... mine's Crookshanks. It's a pleasure to make your acquaintance. S: Likewise. So, your master called you Crookshanks, huh? etc. Then he'd be able to say "Crookshanks, *did you call him*" (emphasis mine.) Maria, asking people's opinions on the subject --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Zarleycat at aol.com Tue Jan 28 01:18:25 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001 ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 01:18:25 -0000 Subject: A theory regarding the "innocence" of Sirius Black and the Redemption of Peter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50835 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "webba28 " wrote: > Hi! I am painstakingly researching possible signs of redemption for > Peter for the roundtable I am *hoping* is accepted for Nimbus. In my > reading, I have discovered a couple of things and would like to pose > a theory. > Dumbledore also states to Harry and Hermione that "two innocent lives > can be saved tonight." He never says Black specifically.... I know a number of other folks have commented on this post, so I won't go over the same ground. However, I don't think anyone mentioned the scene between Dumbledore and Harry the next day, right after Lupin resigned his position and left the school. Dumbledore says "Why so glum, Harry?".."You should be proud of yourself after last night." "It didn't make any difference".."Pettigrew got away." "Didn't make any difference?" said Dumbledore quietly. "It made all the difference in the world, Harry. You helped uncover the truth. You saved an innocent man from a terrible fate." Now, although Dumbledore again mentions no names, who else can he be talking about here, except Sirius? What other man had a terrible fate hanging over him the previous night? > After all this research, I find myself not wholly convinced that > Sirius Black is as innocent as he seems to be at the end of PoA. > Wormtail's no paragon of virtue, either, but something about Sirius > doesn't sit well with me. I can't put my finger on it though. I won't say that Sirius is a paragon of virtue, either, but at this point in the story I think it's pretty clear that Dumbledore now realizes that there was a switch of Secret Keepers and that Sirius was imprisoned for crimes he didn't commit. Have we convinced you? Marianne From kristen at sanderson-web.com Tue Jan 28 01:20:12 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (gkjpo ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 01:20:12 -0000 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50836 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sallygrist " wrote: > > > What are your favorites? > I haven't seen anyone mention my favorite yet (I could have missed it though). It is from Gof "Mad-Eye Moody" "Don't talk to me," Ron said quietly... "Why not?" said Hermione in surprise. "Because I want to fix that in my memory forever," said Ron, his eyes closed and an uplifted expression on his face. "Draco Malfoy, the amazing bouncing ferret..." > And finally one from which the source escapes me, concerning Neville > in Transfiguration class, who'd inadvertantly transplanted his ears > onto a cactus, much to the annoyance of Professor McGonagall. Can't > find the quote but it makes me laugh every time. > This is also from GoF "Beauxbatons and Durmstrang" "Longbottom, kindly do not reveal that you can't even perform a simple Switching Spell in front of anyone from Durmstrang!" Professor McGonagall barked at the end of one particularly difficult lesson, during which Neville had accidently transplanted his own ears onto a cactus. Kristen From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 01:29:31 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 17:29:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bill Weasley In-Reply-To: <20030128004937.67207.qmail@web40505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030128012931.83019.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50837 --- Maria Kirilenko wrote: > We *know* Ron's full name is Ronald. I think it's pretty safe to assume > that Charlie is Charles (not Charlius), Fred is either Fred or Frederic > (not Fredius), Percy is probably Percival (maybe Perceus? - doubt it) > and George is George. Ginny is harder, it may be Virginia or something > else, but she's a girl, so it doesn't matter. > > Does that seem like a family that would name a kid Bilius? I don't think > so. Oh, you'd be surprised at the horrors people will name their children, especially when it's a family name. Maybe Bilius died while Molly was pregnant with Bill, and so they named the baby after him in memory. Or Arthur promised for some reason he'd name his firstborn after his brother. Or Bilius died young and this was Arthur's way of remembering him. As for the others...*sigh* Do I have to go through this AGAIN? :) It seems like someone brings this up in one of my HP groups every few weeks. Yes, it's a given that Ron's full name is Ronald, as it's on the sign on his room and he's referred to as "Mister Ronald Weasley" by Dumbledore. However, I use that same evidence to submit that Fred is NOT named Frederick, since Dumbledore refers to the twins simply as "Misters Fred and George Weasley". I don't see any reason to assume the "full names" of the other Weasleys aren't simply Bill, Charlie, Percy, and Ginny. (Although I think I like Perseus for Percy -- very classical. :) I still don't think that's it, though.) Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From starropal at hotmail.com Mon Jan 27 23:23:41 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 17:23:41 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's childhood Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50838 Annemehr >One thing I'm not sure of is how he made the connection between >Marvolo and Salazar Slytherin. I could theorize that he eventually >was able to see some personal records of Marvolo's which either >spelled it out or pointed to other possible clues. Maybe JKR will >tell us more eventually. What about the Parseltongue? If he exhibited it, and found out it was a Slytherin trait then he would have figured it out. Either by researching/hearing about the founders or the same way Harry did. I'd say the former since he was still popular and not looked at for opening the Chamber. Maybe? Star Opal _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From kristen at sanderson-web.com Tue Jan 28 01:40:15 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (gkjpo ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 01:40:15 -0000 Subject: Bill Weasley In-Reply-To: <20030128012931.83019.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50839 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Andrea wrote: > However, I use that same evidence to submit that Fred is NOT named > Frederick, since Dumbledore refers to the twins simply as "Misters Fred > and George Weasley". I don't see any reason to assume the "full names" of > the other Weasleys aren't simply Bill, Charlie, Percy, and Ginny. > (Although I think I like Perseus for Percy -- very classical. :) I still > don't think that's it, though.) > > > Andrea I feel inclined to point out that this does not have to be an all or nothing thing. Ron could be named after his grandfather while Bill could be named after his uncle while the rest of the children were given ordinary names. Many of us have one or two favorite relatives that we consider naming our children after (though I admit in my case, the names were just too hideous to bestow on my children :). I'm not saying it's so, but just that it's possible. Maybe we'll find out if JKR releases her background data after the series. Kristen From Zarleycat at aol.com Tue Jan 28 01:46:54 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001 ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 01:46:54 -0000 Subject: Animal communication In-Reply-To: <20030128011009.79477.qmail@web40510.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50840 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Maria Kirilenko wrote: > > I was reading the Shrieking Shack scene today again, and this suddenly struck me: > > When Sirius explains how he made friends with Hermione's cat, he says: "Crookshanks, did you call him?" > > I reread the whole scene from the moment when Padfoot drags Ron into the Whomping Willow twice to make sure, and I am fairly certain that HHR *never* call Crookshanks by its name when Sirius is present. > > First I thought it was a mistake. Then a thought occured to me that maybe it isn't. Sirius did manage to talk to Crookshanks, obviously, since he did all sorts of errands for him, and Crookshanks was also able to talk to Sirius - Cr told S that Peter escaped from Gryffindor tower. > So, to what extent can animals talk to each other? Sirius' phrase "I managed to communicate to him" something or other implies (to me, in any case), that no straightforward exchanges can happen. That is just so contradictory. > > Getting back to my original point, how did Sirius know the cat was called Crookshanks if its name wasn't mentioned by anyone in that scene? Well, I think some sort of rudimentary communication is possible. Maybe this can't be between animal/animal, but can happen between animal/Animagus. After all, Sirius/Padfoot somehow got Crookshanks to understand what he was supposed to do with the order form for the Firebolt for Harry. But, perhaps this was a simple, directional command sort of thing. "You take this to red building. Give to wizard there." And Crookshanks understands that and happily takes the piece of paper, trots to the correct building and hands the order form to the wizard who wil send it on its way. Whereas if Padfoot/Sirius asked Crookshanks the Kneazle what his name was or how he liked to be addressed, perhaps there was the fear that something was lost in the translation. Crookshanks can't say in English "My name is Crookshanks." But, maybe through whatever animal/Animagus telepathy exists, he was able to say "My bushy-haired girl calls me Crookshanks." So, perhaps he "told" Padfoot that his name was Crookshanks, but Sirius' human brain was not entirely sure that he got the message correctly. Hence, his question "Crookshanks, did you call him?" as in "Did I interpret what he told me correctly - you named him Crookshanks?" Marianne, who wishes her own felines would occasionally make themselves useful.. From kethlenda at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 01:57:26 2003 From: kethlenda at yahoo.com (Kelly L. ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 01:57:26 -0000 Subject: Yellow Rat Spell - Maybe it really did work In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50841 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999 " wrote: I think you're on to something! Didn't Hagrid say that the spell he > used to turn Dudley into a pig failed because Dudley was so > much like a pig already? Maybe the spell to turn Scabbers yellow > failed because he was yellow (in the sense of cowardly) already. > > Pippin *Kelly L. giggles* I think you're right, Pippin. That's sort of what I was trying to get at with my filk a while back. :) It's very possible that Ron couldn't turn Scabbers *literally* yellow because he was already *metaphorically* yellow. Or it could have just been foreshadowing. Kelly, hoping this isn't a Me Too post... From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 01:58:38 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 01:58:38 -0000 Subject: Vernon's Drill Co; (was Dursley's bribed?, charmed? or afraid?) In-Reply-To: <20030127203846.97853.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50842 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Andrea wrote: > --- Tanya wrote: > > Dagnabbits! I just might have to respectfully agree with you here, > > because I've just come across this passage (PoA/2) that reads: > > > > "...Uncle Vernon bored them all with a long talk about Grunnings, > > his drill-making company..." > > > > *respectful grumbling* I concede. > > -end this part- > Andrea replies > > Wait a minute, Tanya, there's no need to go throwing in the towel > just yet! > > I ... submit, ... owning a company does not mean one is > automatically disgustingly wealthy with a huge house. ...edited.. > So I don't think it's necessarily a given that Vernon either IS > or ISN'T the owner of Grunnings. ... He's definitely upper > management at the least, though. > > > > Andrea bboy_mn: Given what Ali said about the use of the term 'Director' in the UK, and looking at Dudley's birthday gifts, which I estimate at between us$800 and us$1,000, I'm inclined to give Vernon a promotion. He is not longer management but an executive; probably the equivalent of a vice president. One thing that throws off my preception is real estate. In the US most house are built out of wood; wood exteriors. In Europe, houses are build out of stone, mortar (stucco,...), and brick. Europeans build there houses with the intent that they last 500 years. In the US, houses are typically built with the expectation of them lasting 100 years. Since it's relatively cheap to build a house in the US compared to UK, you can get a lot more house for your money. So the description of the Dursley house doesn't strike me as an executive's house, BUT I readily admit that my view is very distorted having never been in the UK. Just for reference, here is a link to the new house Rupert Grint's family bought, and a picture of their old house. http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2003001703,00.html Again, this is just a reference point to use to judge the Dursley's lifestyle. Their (Grint's) old house sold for ?200,000 ($327,000), to my USA eyes that doesn't look like a +$300,000 house. Their new house was ?600,000 ($982,000); that house is a tougher call. It's on a private island with 6 other houses, five bedrooms, two car garage, nice plot of land, and generally pretty nice, but nearly a million dollars seem to be pushing it. As a side note: frequently modest looking houses can be very expensive, do to a lot of luxury contruction and fixtures inside. ("Don't judge a book (or house) by it's cover.") So, with my limited knowledge of the UK, tempered by my general knowledge that real estate is very expensive in England, the Dursley's house is probably appropriate for a person on a significant executive salary. Also, as I think about it, they might give a company car to an executive, but less likely to a manager. I still don't see Vernon as the owner to the company, but as Andrea pointed out, there is no way I can prove that. But, in light of this discussion, I have to say my position is weakening. bboy_mn From BriBearBaby at backstreet-wallpaper.net Mon Jan 27 23:47:51 2003 From: BriBearBaby at backstreet-wallpaper.net (Patty) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 18:47:51 -0500 Subject: Sports and Cheating References: Message-ID: <00c101c2c65e$81e3a340$0101a8c0@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 50843 As you've pointed out, DM, it does seem to be rather easy to use magic of sorts to tamper with these sporting events. Maybe in the case of the World Quidditch Cup, there could be some sort of charm placed around the field of play that would not allow any magic to cross. Something like the spell that Dumbledore put on the line around the Goblet of Fire to prevent any underage entries. Patty ----- Original Message ----- From: Danger Mouse To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 12:34 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sports and Cheating I'm watching the superbowl with my family right now (actually it's a commercial break) and I was thinking about magical cheating and it's use in sports. Dumbledore is able to slow Harry's fall to the ground in PoA, and, in CoS, the rogue bludger is destroyed by Finite Incantatem. In SS, Quirrel jinxes Harry's broom... In Quidditch games, at least at Hogwarts, it is clear that there are no charms that prevent the use of magic (other than brooms). What about at official league games? Sound amplification charms work, but curses? I'm curious if anyone's ever tried to curse someone off their brooms there... It leads to interesting thoughts. Think about the Raiders--their fans have rioted and pillaged and done Bad Things occassionally. Fully trained and armed wizards could do a lot of damage. This was somewhat explored in GoF, with the Death Eater Fiasco, of course. And back to the subject of cheating. What prevents wizards from making bets on a certain muggle sport, then magically sabotaging the game? Slowing down or accelerating a competitor, or casting banishing charms on a flying football... a creative wizard could get a lot of money this way. It's just a matter of not getting caught... -DM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From brighteyes at completely-incomplete.net Mon Jan 27 23:56:11 2003 From: brighteyes at completely-incomplete.net (Bright Eyes) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 23:56:11 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? Message-ID: <003401c2c65f$abd8cc60$cce187d9@freeserve.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 50844 > > > What are your favorites? > > > > > > Jade I have so many favourites but here are just a few that have jumped out at me... (page numbers refer to the UK paperback editions). ...He couldn't know that at this very moment, people meeting in secret all over the country were holding up their glasses and saying in hushed voices: 'To Harry Potter - the boy who lived!' PS -- pg 18 'Tut, tut - fame clearly isn't everything.' - Snape PS -- pg 182 'I see,' said Lupin thoughfully. 'Well, well ... I'm impressed.' He smiled slightly at the look of suprise on Harry's face. 'That suggests that what you fear most of all is - fear. Very wise, Harry.' POA -- pg 117 Then Ron voiced what Harry was thinking. 'You're both mental.' POA -- pg 256 'Why can't it be true?' Lupin said calmly, as though they were in class, and Hermione had simply spotted a problem in an experiment with Grindylows. POA -- pg 257 'Miss Granger, you are already facing suspension from this school,' Snape spat. 'You, Potter and Weasley are out of bounds, in the company of a convicted murderer and werewolf. For once in your life, hold your tongue.' 'But if - if there was a mistake -' 'KEEP QUIET, YOU STUPID GIRL!' Snape shouted, looking suddenly quite deranged. POA -- pg 264 (I love that whole scene, but IMHO that's the funniest part) 'Gone! Gone! Bless his little beak, he's gone! Musta pulled himself free! Beaky, yeh clever boy!' POA -- pg 294 Dobby looked suddenly nervous, and beckoned Harry closer. Harry bent forwards. Dobby whispered, 'He said we is free to call him a - a barmy old codger if we likes, sir!' Dobby gave a frightened sort of giggle GOF -- pg 332 'What's a Wheezy?' 'Your Wheezy, sir, your Wheezy - Wheezy who is giving Dobby his jumper!' GOF -- pg 426 Moony_Loon From BriBearBaby at backstreet-wallpaper.net Tue Jan 28 00:43:58 2003 From: BriBearBaby at backstreet-wallpaper.net (Patty) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 19:43:58 -0500 Subject: Cauldrons & Bill Weasley References: Message-ID: <010801c2c666$59104ec0$0101a8c0@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 50845 Carolyn, I think that the reason each student must purchase their own cauldron is because, like the polyjuice potion, not all potions can be finished in the period of one class. So if the school were to provide one class with cauldrons and they were to be using them for any length of time past their one hour class time, then the other students would not be able to brew any potions until the other class was finished with theirs. Patty ----- Original Message ----- From: Carolyn My question is about cauldrons. In the first book, a cauldron is on Harry's school supply list, and he contemplates getting a solid gold one. My question is, what do the students do with their cauldrons once they get to school? It's not very practical to think that they carry their cauldron around with them until Potions class, because cauldrons are heavy. I also don't think they use them for homework purposes, because it would make sense that the only potion making students do is under the watch of Professor Snape--what if something went wrong? So what then, is the purpose of the cauldron? Also in CoS, Hermione had a cauldronw with which to brew the Polyjuice potion. Where did she get it? Why would the students be required to buy something they never use? The cauldrons that are used in Potions class, I've always assumed, were just already there. Soo... does anyone have an explanation for this? From gandharvika at hotmail.com Tue Jan 28 02:20:46 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 02:20:46 +0000 Subject: TBAY/SHIP: 4 Loves on the Big Bang (WAS: Romance on the Big Bang ) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50846 Gail popped aspirin in her mouth, washed them down with a glass of water and then buried her head in her hands to wait for the medicine to take affect. Theorizing always gave her a headache. Being a Filking Major at Canon College, she wasn't used to exercising those portions of her brain. The door to the Royal George Bar still hung open. The violent winds howled outside as the rain poured in and a patron who was sitting at a nearby table had a hard time closing it. Only moments before Eileen, disheveled and behaving like a madwoman, had run off into the night shouting something about SHIPs. Derannimer leaned over to Cindy and asked, "Eileen's going to be alright, is she?" "Oh sure," Cindy replied, "It's just Elkins' Imperius Curse...she'll get over it." Feeling a bit better, Gail looked up and said, "Y'know, Captain, everybody's been talking about these SHIPs, but I'm much more intrigued with this topic you brought up before. About the Four Loves and how they also Bang. I took that Four Loves Workshop at OTChatter, too. I think you were right about Storge." "You mean about Bangy eros being non-canonical and storge being the best Bang?" Cindy asked. "Parental love, yeah," Gail replied. "Hey, wait a second..." Derannimer said, raising her finger in protest, but Gail interrupted. "I was thinking, just before Eileen came in here and started ranting, I came up with another canonically based situation where one of the Four Loves is involved and which also creates a Bang. "James, Sirius, Lupin and Peter, friends right? That's fraternal love...what's it called in Greek again?" "Philos," Cindy replied. "Yeah, Philos," Gail repeated, "And then what happens? Peter, who James trusted enough to make him their Secret Keeper, turns rat-fink and betrays them to Voldemort. And since Peter was their friend, it makes his betrayal even worse than if an enemy had done it. Then Peter messes up his friend Sirius by framing him and sending him to Azkaban. Throughout PoA we are led to believe that Sirius is the criminal. Sirius, who was James' *best* friend. And because they were friends, the crime is much worse, that love is betrayed and the wounds cut deeper. Thus in the end it Bangs even louder." "What about Eros?" Derannimer asked, leaning forward in her chair. "I don't think that JKR will touch Agape, do you?" Gail said, ignoring her. "Well, that's a tricky one." Cindy replied, taking a sip from her glass. "No, wait!" Derannimer leaned forward, "I know what you said, Captain, about how Eros isn't canonical, but so far the books have been written from the point of view of a 11-14 year old. The older the Trio get, the more we'll see in the way of romance. So the fact that we have not seen Eros as a major motivating factor to this point in canon does not mean that we never will!" "I suppose it's *possible*," Cindy said, shifting her gaze at the window and the raging storm outside, "And I guess we'll be finding out sooner or later. But until then I think it's best that we stick with the canon we have. What do you say, Gail?" But Gail's attention had been distracted. The refrain of a rap song from the 90's started to play over and over in her head. Ooooo...I've never filked a rap song before, she thought eagerly. Ooooo...it could work...how did that song go...? She pulled her Qwik Quotes Quill from out of the folds of her robes and started scribbling something down on a cocktail napkin sitting on their table. Cindy's eyes narrowed suspiciously. "What are you writing there?" "Oh," Gail said, chuckling to herself, "nothing..." -Gail B _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From flamingstarchows at att.net Mon Jan 27 23:57:39 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 17:57:39 -0600 Subject: Yellow Rat Spell - Maybe it really did work References: <1043694728.6960.46541.m7@yahoogroups.com> <006b01c2c64b$520ac6c0$2101a8c0@ACTIONSTEEL.COM> Message-ID: <018d01c2c65f$e04360a0$090a4a0c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 50847 ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Binch I was just thinking about this spell that Ron casts on scabbers: Sunshine, daisies, buttermellow, Turn this stupid fat rat yellow. It obviously didn't work... or did it? What if yellow means to be afraid instead of the color? We know that Petigrew was brave enough to stand against Black, but now he seems to be afraid of everything/everyone? What if this seamingly simple spell cast by Ron, is the only thing that keeps Petigrew from having the courage to stand against Voldimort? Any thought? Insight? Previous discussions? *** Me: After finding out the truth about Scabbers!Peter in PoA, I figured the spell did not work because Scabbers wasn't a real rat at all...though can you think of a more appropriate animal for Peter to transform into? I think he really was just one of those people who always wanted to associate with "the biggest bully on the playground". "Ratfink" comes to mind... ~Cathy~ From orlaquirke2002 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 03:24:57 2003 From: orlaquirke2002 at yahoo.com (Anna Hemmant) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 19:24:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: banter/ff: after the ball and other SHIP subjects In-Reply-To: <1043706307.2941.28097.m15@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030128032457.12669.qmail@web20508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50848 Previous people have written such amazingly interesting stuff as <<<<>>>>>>>> (He does seem to be particularly stubborn) He's also feeling a bit intimidated by the fact that her current "beau" is his idol Quidditch star. (Well, wouldn't you?) I can't in my wildest dreams imagine that she's friends with Ron for the next 6 months just because she's worried about Harry's safety and thinks if she dumps Ron that Harry would in turn dump her. That's not saying anything good about the strength of Hermione's *friendship* with either boy! That is assuredly *not* the position of the H/H shippers. ( couldn't have put it better myself. You have to remember that they've been friends for almost four years, and you can't put down that kind of bond. wrote other interesting morsels:I still don't concede that Hermione *enjoys* the bickering with Ron.....I don't think she does I really don't understand why the H/H'ers have to be made out as anti-Ron and the "villains" in any debate on this topic, Angua. It happens that *I* don't really like Ron much at all (like Ebony, I loved him right up until about mid-way through PoA and began to actively dislike him during GoF......though because I have liked him in the past, I have every confidence that I *might* like him again). But, why don't you acknowledge that it might not ever be "resolved"? It *might* be that: This. Is. The. Way. They. Communicate. It might *not* be unresolved sexual tension. I have a hard time accepting that UST is the reason they've been bickering since they met at age 11, frankly. So, I don't think that the bickering is "masking" the UST.Ah, the ongoing debate about whether Hermione enjoys the "Exchanges" or not. I said: > >If [JKR] continues to stress words > >like "savagely," "impatiently," "sputtered > >indignantly," "acidly," "coldly," "angrily," etc., she might give > >us the impression that Ron and Hermione really don't interact very > >positively during their "bantering."> Derannimer responded: > This is true, Angua. JKR *does* tend to use extremely negative words > to describe the way that Hermione reacts to Ron's teasing. (Although > I think that that "savagely" actually belonged to Ron; you can > scratch that one if you like to.) But my point is that H/Hers have a > pretty objective reason for thinking that Hermione doesn't enjoy TE. > There are clues in JKR's diction and description to suggest that she > doesn't. JKR uses very negative words here. Angua gives us a list of examples of "positives" associated with "Exchanges" between Ron and Hermione. <<<<<"I've still got ten Galleons," she said, checking her purse. "It's my birthday in September, and Mum and Dad gave me some money to get myself an early birthday present.""How about a nice *book*?" said Ron innocently."No, I don't think so," said Hermione composedly. "I really want an owl...."I would say 'composedly' is a positive-connotation word.>>>>>>>>Er.......*this* is Ron *trying* to interact with Hermione and her not getting it, not playing. She's *serious*. She totally misses his joke. (No she doesn't! She totally gets the point that he's teasing her, but she's growing up, and learning not to rise to the bait is part of that.) This is funny for the reader, but it's not really a good example of Ron and Hermione interacting. Isn't it just one-sidedness, really? (I think that this is not the case. It is illustrative IMO that Hermione finally understands why ron is teasing her, and feels no need to stress out.)Yes, but this too is not Ron/Hermione interaction, Angua. We're talking about the direct interaction between the two of them, not whether Hermione has or lacks a sense of humor. I think it's clear she has a sense of humor and enjoys using it herself. But, I don't think she's enjoying much of the Exchanges with Ron. (Ah, one of my central arguments. I don't think she did enjoy the 'exchanges' with Ron. Until at least Book three. For rest of argument, see below)So, her enjoying "proving Ron wrong" is good for a romance, *how?* :::looks puzzled by the logic::::::: (Hermione begins to enjoy the one up-man-ship that exists between her and Ron. the intellectual exchange what gives her a thrill and, I believe, will cause her to finally cave in and go out with him.)the issue is not what Hermione's choice will be. It's how Ron's choices would influence Hermione's choice. There are a lot of possible places JKR can take Ron based on his development to date:Is he really going to *always* be a roadblock to H/H in either scenario? I'd say not. Happens all the time. I tend to view novels as imitative of life ..........so I'm afraid the whole "well, but this is fiction" argument doesn't hold much sway with me. (Me either)I don't know why Ron has to "concede the girl." Why can't it just be a 14 yr old boy who had a crush on his best friend, but it never worked out? If JKR chose *not* to ship the Trio to one another within the four corners of the series, but to conclude it with the Trio as still (or perhaps again) best friends, would that not allow us to continue to view either ship as valid? Or any other ship? Or no ship? The more I think about this, the more I think that would be the best possible result. I'd still put my money on R/H, but not till the very end of the series. Now, finally, me: I'm sure it was either on Newsround or some equally good HP source that it was a fact that there was going to be a canon SHIP in the new book. I can't remember if it was Harry and Cho, or Hermione and Ron, but that's just because i'm dozy. I believe that Hermione and Ron will become a couple soon. I also think that a lot of people have been overlooking a certain academic rule. NB the existance of a correlation cannot determine causation. ie just because there are a vast amount of couples that end up dating who squabbled when they first met does not necessarily mean that it was a sign of unresolved sexual tension, or at least not on both sides or at first. It can just as easily mean that the relationship that is formed due to two people squabbling can be of such a personal nature that a romantic relationship is often the result. I am also of the belief that Hermione and Ron are a lot more suited to each other than the suggested Harry and Hermione SHIP. A relationship with Harry, as a hero who Hermione knows to be exceptionally brave etc would be excessively daunting on Hermione's part; she is shown to be quite insecure in the books (I won't illustrate this point for reasons of angry people with full mailboxes here, but if anyone disagrees, I will be happy to) and Ron, as an insecure youngest brother, has more patience with her insecurity as she does with his (as in the fight between Harry and Ron and Hermione's pleas to Harry) I have been inactive for quite some time, and may be more than a little rusty, but i'm sure I can trust everyone interested in this thread to pull my theories apart and throw them to the dogs if necessary. Hiya everybody! Can I please take this opportunity to illustrate how much I am in excited anticipation about the book news by still mentioning it!!!!!!!!!!!!!) Anna The thin man had stepped out of the cauldron, staring at Harry ... and Harry stared back at the face that had haunted his nightmaresfor three years. Whiter than a skull, with wide, livid scarlet eyes, and a nose that was as flat as a snake's with slits for nostrils ... Lord Voldemort had risen again. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nithya_rachel at hotmail.com Tue Jan 28 03:27:26 2003 From: nithya_rachel at hotmail.com (errolowl ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 03:27:26 -0000 Subject: Yellow Rat Spell - Maybe it really did work In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50849 Steve Binch wrote: It obviously didn't work... or did it? What if yellow means to be afraid instead of the color? We know that Petigrew was brave enough to stand against Black, but now he seems to be afraid of everything/everyone? What if this seamingly simple spell cast by Ron, is the only thing that keeps Petigrew from having the courage to standagainst Voldimort? Then Amy: WOW. That is SUCH a great idea! A related possibility might be that it is this spell that keeps Harry safe. Pettigrew has *just* met Harry Potter and thoughts of murder might be brewing in his mind . . . but then Ron inadvertently turns him into a coward and thereby prevents Scabbers from scuttling over to Harry's bed and slitting his throat with his rodent incisors during the next three years of golden opportunity. Now Me: While this is an interesting thought, I'd say the spell didn't work because literally he wasn't a rat; and metaphorically he was already yellow. Peter's stand against Sirius was not one of bravery ? it was the typical rat mentality of resorting to desperate measures when backed into a corner. A Rat has an excellent sense of self preservation ? it will run to escape most things ? but a cornered rat is a different proposition. If JKR has brought out anything, it is that Peter values his own skin too much. I'd say Peter has always been afraid of everyone/ everything. It has been discussed before that Peter hung around James and Sirius to gain their protection and aid. And if He wasn't yellow when he betrayed the Potters, well!!! So no, I don't think Ron's spell had anything to do with it. Peter's problem has always been cowardice ? not evil. But his fears *have* led him to be really, really evil, and he's been forced back into that role now. If Sirius hadn't spotted him (or Crookshanks hadn't complicated issues), Peter would have been happy to live out his life as a rat (hey, food, shelter, luxury!)doing absolutely nothing. He was lazy even for a rat, according to Ron. And Amy! I don't believe that he has anything against Harry ? he carries no malevolence, no ambition, no cunning agenda ...so attacking Harry wouldn't even have crossed his mind. Atleast, thats how I read things. Errol From susannahlm at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 03:29:31 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 03:29:31 -0000 Subject: Banter FF: After the Ball Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50850 "After the Ball: the H/H version," according to Pippin: ======== H/H version Hermione stormed up the girls' staircase. She managed to hold back the tears till she'd reached her room. Tearing the curtains aside, she flung herself down on the bed and sobbed. "Hermione?" Parvati's voice was muffled. She heard the sound of the curtains being drawn aside and felt a hand on her back. "Go away!" she said, into her pillow. "What's going on?" That was Lavender. "Get Ginny," said Parvati. "And a glass of water, I think." Hermione pulled herself together. She sat up. Parvati was sitting on the edge of the bed, looking concerned. She had a right to be, Hermione thought, catching a glimpse of herself in the bedside mirror. Her cheeks were blotchy, the lovely periwinkle blue dress was crushed where she'd been lying on it, and her hair was not only coming down, it was reverting, strand by strand, to its original state. Even as she watched, there was a faint twanging, and several more locks pulled themselves out of the bun and corkscrewed into curliness. "What happened?" Parvati asked. "Did Krum--" "No!" said Hermione. "No, of course not. It's that prat, Ron Weasley. I hate him!" Then she put her hand over her mouth. Ginny Weasley was standing in the doorway. "He *is* like that, sometimes," Ginny said, coming forward. "You look terrible." "Don't make me feel worse!" Hermione told Ginny and Parvati everything that had happened. "Told you so," said Ginny. "He does like you." "Like me! He's got a funny way of showing it, trying to ruin my night!" "Well, he wasn't the only one!" said Parvati. "You had the luck, Parvati," Hermione said softly. "You were with Harry." Parvati laughed derisively. "Luckier if he hadn't spent the whole night with his eyeballs glued to Cho Chang. Or off walking with Ron Weasley in the rose bushes." Ginny's eyebrows collided with her hairline. "*What!?*" "Oh!" said Parvati, blushing furiously, "I didn't mean they were *walking* -- They were just...walking." "But, what am I going to do?" Hermione moaned. "Well, I'd tell Ron to take a flying leap into the lake, if I were you," said Ginny sagely. "I can't" said Hermione. "Why ever not?" asked Parvati. "If it's any consolation, I'm sure Padma feels the same way, right now." "Because," Hermione sniffed, "Harry needs me." "Well, really! What's that got to do with it?" Ginny looked indignant. "Besides, if you like Harry that way, what d'you want to bother with Viktor for?" "Because," said Parvati acidly, " Viktor is seventeen, and knows how to treat a witch." "You don't understand," Hermione wailed. "It's not like that at all. Harry needs me. He hasn't done anything about his Egg, and he won't unless I make him, and if I stop speaking to Ron, which I want to, believe me, then Harry won't speak to me either. And he needs me!" "But what about what you need?" Ginny asked. "It doesn't matter what I need," Hermione sniffed. The three other girls exchanged exasperated glances. "She's hopeless," Parvati whispered. Hermione didn't seem to hear. "Well, said Ginny thoughtfully, "I guess you could be with Harry and ignore the fact that ninety percent of the time he's with Ron." "Act like you don't care what Ron thinks," said Parvati. "Really don't care what Ron thinks," said Lavender. "Ignore him!" they all chorused, imitating Hermione. Hermione managed a small smile. She pulled out her handkerchief, wished fervently that wizards had taken to Kleenex, and blew her nose. "But suppose Ron says something else!" "Well, you can't stop Ron saying things, you know. At least, no one has yet. Mum's tried, believe me." "I could," said Hermione darkly. "One good curse..." "I know it's tempting," said Ginny, "but you really shouldn't curse my brother, you know." "Right. Well, Harry needs me, so I guess I'll just have to pretend I can tolerate his stupid prat of a friend, even if he is insulting me and every other woman on the planet. Now I'm going to bed!" "You are in bed," said Lavender. ========= No Longer Pippin: Me! Whaa? Pippin, though I'm sure you had fun doing this, and though you're quite a decent writer (have you written any FF, btw?), I'm afraid that your imagination failed you on this one. You were *trying* to imagine that you were an H/Her, writing a fic. You didn't really. . . er. . . quite succeed. Now, let a *real* H/Her have a shot at it! *grins Lockhartly.* (Just so's you know, I've never actually *written* FF. Also, this isn't actually so much H/H as non R/H. So.) -------- "You think the pink?" "Oh, yeah, I think the pink." Parvati looked up at her best friend. "You're sure, Lavender?" she asked. "You don't think the gold?" Lavender sat herself down next to Parvati on the bed. She picked up the little vial of "Molten" and held it next to Parvati's hand, squinting critically at the effect. "Nah." It was the evening after the Yule Ball. Parvati had gotten back to the girls' dormitory quite late, and quite angry. Oh, yes, maybe not *all* the evening had been a *complete* waste; the *second half* of the Ball had really not been *too* bad--but *really!* Harry had behaved so *dreadfully!* She *could,* she supposed, theoretically speaking, have forgiven a guy that spent half the evening gazing across the room at an Athletic Type who he didn't even *know,* if only he'd payed an itty-bitty *smidge* of attention, at *some* point in the evening, to his *actual date.* "You know, the girl he's supposedly taking to the Ball?" she had angrily asked Lavender. "You know, the girl he's supposedly *spending some time with?* He didn't even care when I went off! Do you know what he *said,* when I *asked if he would mind?* 'What?'" "He *didn't!*" "He *did!* '*What!*' I mean, *boys!* "I know, I know." "*Honestly*!" Lavender had been immensely understanding. She had roundly condemned Harry as an immature insensate. She had made many supportive noises when Parvati asked if she *really* should have just gone off with that French boy. And she had giggled appreciatively as a somewhat- assuaged Parvati described that second, not-a-complete-waste, part of the Ball. (The boy's name was Jean-Denis, and he had the most *wonderful blue eyes.*) And then Lavender had suggested that the both of them *really* needed to redo their nails, and had brought out a little kit that had just come in the post from Witch Weekly. Parvati had squeeled. 'Thank heaven for "Passionate Pink,"' Lavender thought now. It had really been the manicure suggestion that had blown off the last of Parvati's steam; and Lavender wasn't sure if she could have *borne* to have made one more lousy supportive noise. She was friends with Parvati, but the girl had a temper. *thud.* *thud, thud, thud, thud.* What was that? "What's that," asked Parvati, not looking up from the carefully lengthening glowing pink strip on her nail. "I don't know," said Lavender, not altogether honestly. She had a suspicion. . . It was awfully late for Hermione not to be back yet. And the noise, now that she thought about it, was almost *certainly* coming from the staircase that led to the girls' dormitory. *thud, thud.* And it was definitely getting louder. "D'you think it's Hermione," asked Parvati, now waving one hand through the air. "I think it probably is," replied Lavender, her voice slightly tart. The footsteps didn't sound very happy, and she *really* didn't want to spend the rest of her night consoling random room-mates. *thud, thud, thud, thud.* Not to mention the fact that she *really* didn't think that nail polish would do any good with Hermione. *thud, thud, thUD THUD.* There was a brief second of silence. Then *BA--* The door did not quite bang open. It certainly flew forward at a remarkable velocity--but a hand suddenly shot out and caught it 'round one edge before it could hit the wall. The hand dropped down to the doorknob, and Hermione Granger shut the door carefully behind her as she entered the room. 'She *looks* rather in need of consoling,' Lavender thought, and felt grouchy. 'Well, isn't this just *my* night.' "Hermione?" she said resignedly. Hermione spun round. Lavender noticed that her hair was looking a right mess again--little twists and frizzes were coming down out of the elegant bun she had helped to construct. "Yes, Lavender?" she asked, extremely politely. There was something not. . . not *right,* edging her voice. Lavender realized that it would perhaps be best to tread cautiously. "Um. . . Hermione, is there something wrong?" "No," snapped Hermione, turning back and walking briskly towards her bed. "But Hermione--" "Everything's *fine,* Lavender! And I should like to go to bed now, so please stop *quizzing* me! There's absolutely nothing wrong!" She wrenched the bed curtains open. Lavender heard rather a loud squeak as the bed springs complained about the sudden weight. Then a hand reached out and snapped the curtains back shut. Lavender looked at Parvati, who was no longer quite so intent on her finger nails. Lavender raised one delicately tweezed eyebrow at Parvati, and Parvati arched one shapely-ly tweezed eyebrow at Lavender. Parvati leaned towards Lavender. "*Well," she said, very quietly, "what happened *there?*" ---- "Well," came Parvati's voice softly, "what happened *there?*" It was too dark to matter, but Hermione shut her eyes anyway. Maybe that way she wouldn't be able to see the red glow her face must be casting across the curtains. When she had stormed out of the Common Room, her face had simply been red with anger. But then, about half-way up the stairs, she had suddenly realized something; now, her face was red with something else altogether, it and seemed, if possible, to be getting redder every second. Now that she'd thought about it, of course, she couldn't quite see why she hadn't realized it before. *Ron liked her.* She felt herself blushing again, and decided that she couldn't possibly be any more mortified than she was already, so she might as well just *face* the thing. After all, she was going to have to think about it sooner or later. Ron *liked* her. She'd never had any idea of it before. She. . . well, she had just never *thought* of Ron like. . . like that. She had been completely shocked when he'd acted like such a git during the Ball. She hadn't had the slightest idea *why* he was suddenly being so unfriendly to Viktor. His behaviour had come as a surprise to her--he'd always been such a fan of Krum's before, and she hadn't been able to fathom why his attitude had so abrubtly changed. Well, she fathomed it now, all right. Back in the Common Room Ron had started being hateful again: accusing her of throwing a fight, betraying Hogwarts--of betraying *Harry.* After everything they'd all gone through--how could he *say* that! It wasn't exactly as if either Ron or Harry had asked her to go, now was it! It wasn't exactly as if she had turned down Harry to go with Krum. *That* now, *that* could have been a betrayal. She would have gone with Harry, if he'd asked her. She would have gone with Ron, if he'd asked her. But neither of them had, now, had they? Harry hadn't thought to ask her at all. And as for Ron. . . well, Ron had waited until he was *desperate,* and then asked her (rather rudely), and assumed she wouldn't have anyone else to go with! And then accused her of lying when she *did( have someone to go with! *Honestly,* the *nerve!* Of course, now that she'd realized about. . . it, Ron's attitude made more sense. She really didn't know why she hadn't realized before, down in the Common Room. Why she hadn't realized before she'd said it--but at the time all she'd realized was that her friend, her good friend, who she'd known for heaven's sake *forever,* was insulting her *again.* So that, when Ron had said: "I don't like it, Hermione, you going with Krum! You should have gone with--with one of us!" she had absolutely just *snapped.* As if she *could* have! And she had yelled that if he jolly well wanted her to go with him, he could jolly well try *asking* next time. Imagine, what a concept. And then she had seen his face. And then she had stormed up off the stairs. And then, half-way up the stairs, she had realized what she had seen on his face. And now *what* was she supposed to do. Ron liked her. She opened her eyes again. She could just make out the dark lines of the canopy. Cracks of light still glowed between the curtains-- apparently, Parvati and Lavender were still up. Nope, that didn't really help either. She closed her eyes again. It occurred to her suddenly that she would have to see Ron again. Obviously. How was she supposed to look at him? Knowing that he liked her? And knowing that he probably knew that she knew? And knowing that. . . well, knowing that she probably *didn't* like him. She'd never even *thought* of him that way. Ron was just. . . well, Ron, obviously. She'd just never thought of Ron that way. She didn't think she could think of Ron that way *now.* Ron was *Ron.* She was glad, at this moment, that she'd never been that close to any of her room-mates. She couldn't even imagine trying to explain this to Lavender. 'Ron's just *Ron,*' she imagined herself saying, and almost winced, it sounded so silly. It really wasn't an adequate explanation. But it was an adequate *reason.* She simply couldn't imagine feeling that way about Ron--maybe if she could, she wouldn't have been so dreadfully slow to realize that he, unfortunately, could imagine feeling that way about her. She knew, quite suddenly, that she could not tell him any of this. And not just because her face started to redden again at the sheer *thought* of such an awkward and embarrassing and painful conversation. Because he was her friend. She wasn't really angry at him, now that she knew why he'd been such a prat; she didn't want a fight. She'd almost lost both her best friends last year, in a fight; and she'd lost half of both her best friends earlier this year, when Ron had had a massive fight with Harry, about the Tournament. She really didn't want to have another fight. She really didn't want to hurt Ron's feelings. But she also didn't want to lie to him--that wouldn't do any good at all, not in the long run. And it wouldn't be fair. So although she lay there, eyes again open in the dark, behind the thick, hanging curtains, and tried to decide on *something* to say to Ron in the morning, all she was eventually able to decide on was this: that she did not want to have this conversation. And that if he did not bring it up, she would not bring it up, either. Her eyes closed again, and she fell finally asleep. -------- Derannimer (who knows that she went a bit overboard with that one, but who really enjoyed the writing of it) From Malady579 at hotmail.com Tue Jan 28 04:15:14 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 04:15:14 -0000 Subject: FILK: Hermione/Macavity Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50851 This is about as close as I come to shipping. Now I wrote this watching the video, since for some reason, my CD collection is lacking the Cats CD. So, when I say Harry and Ron, imagine them as the two saucy dancing cats swerving their hips around. The visual is too hilarious to pass up. Dedicated to: Grey Wolf because he adores the song, and (being the anti-shipper he is) the fact I am dedicating a semi-SHIPping filk to him will mortify him. :D -and- Meg's cat Macavity. Hermione/Macavity from the musical Cats (Harry) Hermione's a clever witch She's called the teacher's pet For she's the smartest Gryffindor Who can out mark the rest She's a silly girl to Severus Snape Her hand high in the air For when he posed a question, then Hermione's right there. Hermione, Hermione, there's no witch like Hermione She masters every wizard spell She's memorized its history Her powers of petrification would make Neville fall square For when a spell is needed, then Hermione's right there. You may see her in the library Piled high with books to spare And I tell you once and once again Hermione's right there. (Ron) Hermione's a witty girl Her tongue is quick and fierce You would know her if you heard her For her voice is rather pierce Her mind is racing deep in thought her hair is highly teased Her back is weighted by her bag her front teeth are for cheese She waves her wand from side to side With a swish and a flick And when you think there is no hope Her logic does the trick! Hermione, Hermione, there's no witch like Hermione Remembered flames for Devil's Snare Solved the chamber mystery Her answers win them house points Aced Lockhart's questionnaire For when perfection's needed then, Hermione's right there. (H)She's usually respectable (R)I know she slapped Malfoy (H)And you won't find her name in any files in Filch's drawers. (R)But when the bathroom's empty (H)Or a prof's robe's on fire (R)Or when the boomslang's missing (H)Or another bug's a liar (R)Or the kitchen's pear is tickled (H)And the elfs are in despair (Together)There's a wonder of the thing, Hermione's right there. (Together) Hermione, Hermione, there's no witch like Hermione There never was a witch of such intelligence and ability She always has an answer and one or two to spare Whatever time's the essay's due, Hermione's right there. And they say that all homework that could be copied easily ((H)I might mention divination, (R)I might mention history) Are nothing more than knowledge held by this smart know-it-all Who will never let us copy Can you imagine, her gall? Hermione, Hermione, there's no witch like Hermione For she's a witch with muggle blood A fighter of elf tyranny Her loyalty never wavers In her heart she deeply cares For when a friend's in trouble then, Hermione's right there. :D Melody with cheering and coaching from Gail: The Queen of Beatles Filks. (Quite blushing girl, you know you are.) From selah_1977 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 05:17:46 2003 From: selah_1977 at yahoo.com (Ebony ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 05:17:46 -0000 Subject: More about the wizarding world and empire... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50852 Christian notes the very thing that I thought of in the bath last night, *after* I posted: "It is not a given that Dean Thomas' name reflects typical practice in the wizarding world. It has always been my assumption that Dean Thomas is muggleborn (canon doesn't seem to actually say so, but there are indications - being a Westham FC-fan, for instance), and Angelina Johnson may well be so too, as far as I can see. I do not think one can conclude from the names of those two characters that the wizarding world has had the same attitude towards race as the muggle-world, given that they easily both can be muggle-born." I did forget to type in my last post that Dean is indeed Muggleborn. But Christian, this is like saying that we cannot reach any conclusions about the true nature of house-elves because thus far in canon, we have only met two. No other aspect of canon is placed under such ridiculous constraints. These are only two black characters that we know of, and they both have European names. My question still hasn't been answered. And if they are both Muggle-born, then either intentionally or subconsciously the author has thus relegated two of the characters who are racially Other to the Othered group in the wizarding world-- that of the Muggleborn. So even if their status at It would have been much more groundbreaking and interesting if at least Angelina *were* from a pureblooded family. I thought of a definite way that she could indeed be, but it's far too long to post here. Which brings us back to our former problem, doesn't it? Amy writes: "JKR does this kind of thing when she wants to: for example, she mentions parchment and quills and torches to convey her conceit that the WW has maintained much more of medieval life than has the Muggle world. In short, she has the required attention to detail to get across the idea of a history apart from colonialism, if that idea were a part of her vision of the WW. It's not there (yet, anyway), so I doubt that wizard immunity from the mass deportations of the slave trade (e.g.) appears in the notorious backstory notebooks. Though it could be that she *does* have an idealized view of WW history and just hasn't thought through how that would play out in such things as 20th-century characters' surnames." Indeed, this is exactly what I believe that JKR has done. Her work does say a lot about tolerance, and most of it is positive, yet at the same time vestiges of the empire are absolutely inescapable in the novel. Indeed, no one answered this part of my original post: Me: "I also think it's significant that the other nonwhite characters that we see being educated at Hogwarts represent nations that England either conquered completely (Ireland, India, etc.) or had some sort of favored nation status with (China--although Hong Kong was under British control for a long time, yet? Don't know the history completely there.) If there was no empire in the history of JKR's wizarding world, then why are they being educated in Britain? Because Hogwarts is the best school in the world? If so, then *why* is Hogwarts the best, and not another place where magic likely has been practiced far longer (China, Egypt, etc.) than in either Britain or Europe?" I'm still waiting here. :-D Where are the historians? I'm a literary scholar, and I know there are people far more versed in British imperial history here. Pippin, whose points about premodern imperial Britain I *really* liked, said: "World-builders must sometime make compromises. If Rowling had used African surnames when most native-born black British subjects have anglic names, that would have labelled the black characters as exotic, when she obviously doesn't want them perceived that way." Hmm. I would think that JKR wouldn't think that the use of traditional names as being exotic... why not Anglicized first names, and African last names? The fact that canon has a Parvati and Padma Patil, as well as a Cho Chang, tells me that this author doesn't have a problem using ethnic and non-Anglicized names. And "she wasn't thinking about it" might be very true... but heavens, this is an author who pays a lot of attention to nomenclature. Why *wasn't* she thinking about it? I also suggest that GulPlum re-read my original post more carefully, as he said: "Back to the subject at hand: I agree with Christian and I don't really see why Dean and Angelina having Western names indicate the magical community's racial prejudice; on the contrary, the magical community appears to be quite colour-blind. They do, of course, have their pure-blood/Muggle-born prejudices, but that's something different." Oh, dear. Where did I say this? I think you skimmed my post, saw my references to race, and took immediate offense. While the legacy of empire is a very sensitive topic, I am learning, it can be discussed rationally by looking at textual evidence. Recapitulating my original points: 1) There is evidence that the conception of JKR's wizarding world was not unaffected by empire. One such evidence is the fact that the only two black characters have European and not African names. Another is that the minorities found in the stories happen to be children from various groups that were from the periphery of the original empire. 2) I do not think that the wizarding world in these books is a utopia from racial or religious prejudices. I did not say wizards were prejudiced. I do think that the wizarding community seems to be tolerant of Muggle differences such as race and religion (and perhaps even sexual orientation). However, as the author herself is a product of post-imperial Britain, the work is not completely free of the legacy of empire. Consider the continued primacy of Britain in this wizarding world. Consider the wizarding world orientation that GoF gives us. Consider the presentation of the indigenous Africans that were mentioned at the QWC. Okay, because I know how you guys are, let me take the time out to issue a !!!DISCLAIMER!!! I AM NOT ADVOCATING FOR POLITICAL CORRECTNESS IN THESE BOOKS. I LIKE THE BOOKS JUST THE WAY THEY ARE--AND I WOULD NOT CHANGE A SINGLE WORD OF THEM FOR ANY REASON (well, other than certain potentially pre-ship instances in GoF :P). Having said that, it is fun for me to dissect the books in this way. I do notice little things that some people definitely wouldn't notice because you just wouldn't think to notice such things... which is fine. It is not a bad thing, people. It is interesting for me to read the books, especially GoF, through the same theoretical lens that I use while doing my critical work on 19th and 20th century Britain (that of postcolonial theory and criticism), and to figure out exactly how JKR is condemning evil and teaching tolerance in her stories. I agree wholeheartedly that most of her work is done through normal fantastic means, through the instances of the house-elves, werewolves and giants, and the continued persecution of the Muggle-born. This is all well and good. But one critique that several prominent children's lit scholars, including the *very* influential Jack Zipes, have leveled against the Potter books is that they are indeed racist, sexist, and like much post-1945 British fantasy presents a neocolonial orientation of the world that reveals disturbing trends in children's fiction. Zipes, while he is to be admired, is absolutely *wrong* in this case... as is bell hooks, as are several other prominent scholars who do not love Harry the same way as you and I do.... but the critiques that I am making are the ones that they make. To me, it's important to first admit things like I've mentioned above before we point out the very important message that JKR is conveying to her audience, and how it is being conveyed. For after all, when I read fantasy, I take the magic of the fantastic, the lessons that I learn while journeying to other realms and other worlds... and I draw real-world connections. Listen to JKR's interviews. This sort of critical work is not anathema to this author. It is very important to her. Again, I think JKR is just great... listen, I love these books as much as you do. So when I toss out the fearsome "r" word, please don't jump to conclusions. This is valid analysis, not a diatribe on contemporary politics. (I save those for OTC.) I'll deal with Pip in a separate post... got to grab a book first. :-D --Ebony From elfundeb at comcast.net Tue Jan 28 05:24:21 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 00:24:21 -0500 Subject: SHIP: Authorial intent, Hermione's Secrets, and Ron's Problems References: <001b01c2c4ac$0002d5c0$723b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> <03e701c2c642$2aa6a260$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: <007a01c2c68d$83940700$723b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 50853 I said: > There are a lot of possible places JKR can take Ron based on his development to date: > > > And Penny protested: > I think you've skipped a few though. > > 5. Ron and Hermione date. It's either successful but not entirely satisfactory (not "the real thing" and this is evident to both parties at some point), so they break up amicably .......or it's not successful and they break up either amicably or not so amicably. Yes, this is a big plank in my eye. In my view, this is unlikely to happen, but I'm swimming against a very large tide, since scenario this seems to be assumed by both the R/Hers and the H/Hers, one side to show they are suitable, the other so they'll realize they're not. So I should not have left it out. There are at least three reasons I don't expect this to happen. The first is my Passive!Ron (leading to Imperius!Ron) theory. Ron doesn't take any initiative for himself, and pursuing Hermione would require him to demonstrate a degree of pursuit of a goal that we haven't seen so far from him. I pretty much agree with the veela analysis of Ron's interactions with Fleur which Star Opal set forth in message 50823. I think it fits with the other evidence we've seen that he doesn't take the lead on anything except chess. As Star Opal points out, the scenes are described to infer that Ron wasn't really interested in Fleur but was simply overcome whenever he saw her close up. Other than Fleur, he made no effort to find himself a partner -- it was Harry who arranged for him to go with Padma. Veela charm is a bit like the Imperius Curse, I think. At any rate, I see Ron's unwillingness to engage in self-help as preventing him from approaching Hermione at least until the Imperius!Ron subplot plays itself out. (Yes, that's one of my favorite theories.) Second, and this is probably my own interpretation interfering again, but I do read a bit of meaning into Harry's observation that "Ron and Hermione seemed to have reached an unspoken agreement not to discuss their argument," i.e., they said some things the previous night that they were not prepared to say and they're shutting the door on all of the implications of what they may have said. It's very uncharacteristic of them not to play an argument out. As I believe I said earlier, if I were them I would be very wary of pursuing a relationship with a war going on in which our cooperation would be essential. Third, I have problems envisioning the Trio working well together after a failed R/H romance, and in the end they will have to work together like a well-oiled machine. So to me, a failed relationship also is an indicator of an Evil!Ron or Dead!Ron ending. I have to admit, though, that most of the shippers disagree with me on the first point, and the H/H shippers disagree with me on the other two points as well, so I'll reiterate what I said earlier that while Ron and Hermione could split up in this fictional world without the ending being unsatisfactory, Hermione can't drop Ron for Harry during the course of the series, no matter how amicably one paints the split-up, if Ron is to become SelfAssured!Ron. > > 6. Hermione rejects Ron, and Ron pines after Hermione for a time..........and then realizes that he just had a crush after all. He gets on with his life, and could follow any of your scenarios, but most probably Newly-Self-Assured!Ron. > > Is he really going to *always* be a roadblock to H/H in either scenario? I'd say not. Happens all the time. I tend to view novels as imitative of life ..........so I'm afraid the whole "well, but this is fiction" argument doesn't hold much sway with me. > Obviously my argument does not wash in the real world, where many things are left unresolved. But the real world also has a much larger cast of characters to deal with, whereas the universe JKR has created has a marked lack of suitable female characters, at least to date. As a result, I think it's far more likely that JKR will kill Ron off (and if she does, it would be well foreshadowed) than leave him onstage at the end on the outside of the H/H partnership, which is why I left it out. I also agree that novels -- at least good ones that I would want to read -- imitate life in that I require characters I can imagine existing in the real world doing things I would do in the real world. JKR, however, isn't writing a slice-of-life novel. She's borrowing bits and pieces from multiple genre and part of her genius is her ability to do that while writing believable characters that we care about. One place I think she's done a bit of her borrowing is Jane Austen. Many of her romantic heroes need to mature in their understanding of themselves (Darcy, Wentworth) before they are deemed worthy by the heroine. She also has her share of cads who never grow up, all of whom are left with poor choices (Mrs Elton, anyone?) but the men that mature or that recognize their errors (Edward and Edmund) are always rewarded by the heroine. Wherever JKR is going, I do feel confident that she won't end up with SelfAssuredbutAlone! Ron unless she also ends up with StandingAloneHero!Harry. On the other hand, assuming JKR is pursuing a ship-the-trio angle (and I'm not convinced she is), there are many Austen variations she could use. There's the Emma version with Harry as Knightley (in which Ron would have to end up dead or disgraced) or Pride and Prejudice with Ron as Darcy (or even Draco!), or Sense and Sensibility with Hermione and Ginny as Elinor and Marianne. Once I even suggested that JKR might use a Mansfield Park parallel, with Ginny as a Fanny Price who needs to grow up in the crucible of adversity before Harry will notice her. Nevertheless, I think the Austen influence is there and that if JKR chooses to carry the romance subplot through to the end of the series, the characters who grow and mature will be rewarded. I don't believe JKR will reject it in favor of "slice of life." > What about: Ron winning the struggle with himself but not winning Hermione's heart .....no romances in the Trio during canon....... but an eventual turn to H/H years later (my personal favorite)? I don't know why Ron has to "concede the girl." Why can't it just be a 14 yr old boy who had a crush on his best friend, but it never worked out? He doesn't have to turn evil or die for H/H to work IMO. Why does he have to concede the girl? Why does Harry have to get the girl? How about if nobody gets the girl? > <<<<>>>>>>>> > > > Yes, absolutely! I can definitely buy that. And, assuming all the Trio are still alive, it certainly does just allow the shippers to find their own valid endings (though, of course, an epilogue could put JKR's imprimatur on one >ship or the other or no-ship). > It would be fine to put H/H in the epilogue, but if she does, she has to find someone for Ron, too. After all, Harry *did* predict it. ("hang on, that means 'great happiness' . . . so you're going to suffer but be very happy.") Debbie feeling a sudden urge to pick up an Austen novel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tcyhunt at earthlink.net Tue Jan 28 01:45:21 2003 From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (tcyhunt ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 01:45:21 -0000 Subject: dragon's blood/future/etc/ was:Re: The wizarding world and empire/Grindlewald In-Reply-To: <122.1dfa878e.2b66fde7@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50854 jodel at a... wrote: The WW may not even have *been* > at war during Riddle's school days. And Dumbledore's status as being arguably > the "greatest" wizard of the 20th century is a lot more likely to rest upon > those 12 uses of dragon's blood and the subjects of his collaboration with > Flamel than it does on having defeated Grindlewald. It is not *necessary* > that Dumbledore be a "war hero" in order to be regarded as "great". > Everything we've been shown of his character leans more to his being a "great > humanitarian", instead. Even if Voldemort *is* afraid of him. > > -JOdel (grumpily) JOdel's comments reminded me of an observation I made quite a while ago (but like most stray thougths in my head - they often get shoved into a corner and collect quite a bit of dust before they see light again). Given JKR's use of red herrings and her ability to sneak in key elements as the seemingly mundane - I have often thought that there is more to the contents of Dumbledore's Wizard Card than meets the eye. I have no doubt that Grindewald will be key in future developments. I also believe that the 12 uses of dragon's blood (and dragons in general) will play a major part. I think we'll see more of Charlie Weasely and possibly even Norbert. There are so many references to dragons that it can't just be idle chatter. Anyone else have opinions on this they care to share? Tcy From mrleach74 at msn.com Tue Jan 28 02:59:11 2003 From: mrleach74 at msn.com (gryffindor02356 ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 02:59:11 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Grindelwald defeat In-Reply-To: <9gd5r8+bavh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50855 I have to believe that there is a significant connection between Lord Grindewald and Lord Voldemort. Maybe Voldemort was a Death Eater for Grindelwald until he was defeated by Dumbledore, which is why Voldemort fears Dumbledore. Maybe there is a Slytherin connection as well...I wonder if it will come up in Book 5 in June???? "gryffindor02356" From Audra1976 at aol.com Tue Jan 28 05:42:10 2003 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 00:42:10 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cauldrons & Bill Weasley Message-ID: <1ed.5ec903.2b677232@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50856 maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com writes: > *Arthur* and *Molly* have children named Charlie, Percy, Fred, George, Ron > and Ginny. > We *know* Ron's full name is Ronald. I think it's pretty safe to assume > that Charlie is Charles (not Charlius), Fred is either Fred or Frederic > (not Fredius), Percy is probably Percival (maybe Perceus? - doubt it) and > George is George. Ginny is harder, it may be Virginia or something else, > but she's a girl, so it doesn't matter. > Does that seem like a family that would name a kid Bilius? I don't think so. > Me: They could have, if it was a family name. I have cousins names are named Pelagia, Kathleen, Emily, Michael, and Thomas. Does a family who named their kids Kathleen, Emily, Michael, and Thomas sound like they would name a kid *Pelagia*? But it was their mom's great-grandmother's name. I think Bilius is entirely plausable. Audra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From baringer2k at aol.com Tue Jan 28 03:59:34 2003 From: baringer2k at aol.com (baringer2k at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 22:59:34 EST Subject: Death Eaters Smorgasbord Message-ID: <12b.21493623.2b675a26@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50857 Well now isn't that odd?? I was just reading a fellow poster's favorite line--the one about Ron wanting to savor the moment when "Moody" bounced the transfigured Malfoy up and down. So, let's consider this: Malfoy's a bully. And when he can't bully, he's sniveling. Wouldn't it seem that little Draco would immediately WHINE to his dear old dad about his mistreatment at the hands of the teacher everyone thought was Moody? And if indeed he sniveled to his father, would Mr. Malfoy have responded something along the lines of, "Just mind your studies, son" or would he have replied differently? Had he known it was Crouch, he probably might have responded thusly. However, if he had no knowledge, might not he have written something along the lines of, "Don't worry Draco, I'll have that man's job before the next day dawns!!" So, what I'm stabbing around in the dark at is this: wouldn't these minor events indicate that the Death Eaters worked in concert, and were aware of each other's activities? Wouldn't that also pose a danger? What if Karkaroff or Snape found out? One's a traitor, and one's a turncoat. The Wizarding World has ways of making even Death Eaters tell the truth if they're caught. It just seems a little off to me that the event got swept under the carpet. But then, who knows if Malfoy indeed kept up appearances and lodged a complaint with Dumbledor or the Ministry? Gah! I'm babbling! Marcus in Shreveport [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sevothtarte at gmx.net Tue Jan 28 05:58:42 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 06:58:42 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron and the Trouble with Veela In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50858 Star Opal: >Look at the next part of my message. No matter what, it still sounds like he >wasn't in control: But you don't need Veela power to make a boy in puberty lose control. >> >Sounds like a spell to me. "I don't know what made me do it!" "... it >>sort >> >of came over me..." "I just sort of came to my senses.." Watch teenagers, especially boys just into puberty, and you will find many examples of them acting in a way which makes no sense, even to them afterwards. They've got fantasies, they want to believe something like Ron did can work. (Darn it, I said the stupidest things to girls myself believing they were the right thing to say... *sigh*) >LOL I just got this image of a Harry Potter outtakes. There's Fleur plotting >with the other Beauxbatons. "Leeve it to me girls! I will get ze >bouillabase!" I can already see the ending of OotP in my mind... "Ron," said Dumbledore, "I need you to contact your parents. Viktor, you will return to Durmstrang and organize the defense there. Hermione, Harry - we will confront the Death Eaters together. Fleur ... you know what I must ask you to do. If you are ready ... if you are prepared ..." "I am," said Fleur. She looked slightly paler than usual, and her big, blue eyes glittered strangely. "I will get ze bouillabaise." "Then, good luck," said Dumbledore, and he watched, with a trace of apprehension on his face, as Fleur wordlessly left after Viktor. >*clears throat* But I digress... I don't think she's doing it on purpose. I >agree, if she was so sneaky I don't think the Goblet would have chosen her. >I'm thinking that most the time, its a subconscious power, but she _can_ >increase it if she chooses. But even this kind of increasing could be subconsiously. If you want to make a good impression on someone you fancy, you act a little differently than normal. In Fleur, it might trigger the FPSP (Fleur's possible special power). This, that she's not aware of it or at least doesn't try to exploit it, is my main thing ... it's why I think all that enmity she gets (that's not directed at you, Star Opal) is way too exaggerated. >I call part veela theory! >[...] >Part veela theory! I counter PVT with "she is gorgeous". Both explain perfectly why the boys act strangely, but I prefer SIG because not everything in these books does have to have a second (or third, or fourth) meaning... As long as something can be explained normally, there's no need for spells or other powers. And again, changing the strenght as well as the effect stretches the "only part Veela" thing a bit too much for my taste. >*gives Trevor a wary glance* I'm telling you he isn't all he seems! Of course not. He's the Heir of Hufflepuff. >Star Opal >who wraps herself in the Part Veela Theory tighter than a Beauxbaton with a >shall in winter. We have reached a parting of the ways. You must explain as you see fit. And I - I shall explain as I see fit. (that's enough of misused quotes for now, I promise) We could always discuss the state of mind of the other Beauxbatons girls that came to Hogwarts. They must feel worse looking at Fleur than jealous!Ron did looking at Harry. ^_~ Torsten From selah_1977 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 06:26:10 2003 From: selah_1977 at yahoo.com (Ebony ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 06:26:10 -0000 Subject: The wizarding world and empire (for Pip) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50859 Okay, back to deal with Pip's well-thought out post. In a nutshell, Pip... I think you are oversimplifying a great deal. Again, before I plunge in, a disclaimer that absolutely should not be necessary, but that for some reason I feel the need to add: I AM NOT ADVOCATING POLITICAL CORRECTNESS IN JKR's NOVELS. I LIKE THEM JUST THE WAY THEY ARE (save for several instances that make my shipping life just that much more complicated). In order to go into Pip's points, I had to do two things, as I am not British. I consulted with a friend who is a young British male, a Londoner who happens to be biracial. I also grabbed my copy of Paul Gilroy's *Black Atlantic*... Gilroy is a professor at the University of London. I'll reference both in my responses, I think. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak " wrote: > > I disagree slightly with you and Eloise. First names of some African > first generation immigrants I know include Jennifer, Cynthia, Adabi, > Henry, Kene, Edward and Sandra. Surnames include Ococ, Adaobi, > Gibbs, Afoakwah, Okafor, and Barber. The combination can be > completely African, a British sounding first name with an African > surname, or a name that sounds completely British: not through > slavery, simply through a British ancestor or by marriage. Very good. You saved me the trouble of stating this. I did a paper on Olaudah Equiano, for instance, over a year ago... an ex-slave who considered himself British, married a white British woman, etc. However, none of your evidence refutes my critique about the presence of the postimperial spectre in these novels, does it? You've actually supported my point by what you say above. > I also think you may be making a U.S. culture specific assumption > here, Ebony. Many, many black people in the UK have mixed ethnic > backgrounds. Interracial marriage is very common in the modern UK. > It was also pretty common in the old British Empire; it was simply > that the British whites hardly ever *talked* about it. It doesn't > appear much in the history books, either. Pip, I know this... and if you really look at the content of my previous posts, I think you will see that I am not oversimplifying the issues here. I actually have read just as much about race relations in 19th century Britain than I have about race relations in the 19th century United States. This is because I don't study African-American lit on a critical level; my area of concentration is British lit. Although I admit my primary specialty is the 19th century (with me being torn between the Romantics and the Victorians; I don't know which I want to do the Ph.D. in), part of being a postcolonial critic is researching the origins of imperialist thought and tracing its evolution to the present day. So I've immersed myself in this stuff, beginning with this idea that modern Britain was completely free of the baggage of empire. Gilroy, who is concerned with the intersection between British nationality and ethnicity, states: "This... is reflected directly in the postcolonial histories and complex, transcultural, political trajectories of Britain's black settlers. What might be called the peculiarity of the black English requires attention to the intermixture of a variety of distinct cultural forms. Previously separated political and intellectual traditions converged, and, in their coming together, overdetermined the process of black Britain's political and social formation. This blending is misunderstood if it is conceived in simple ethnic terms, but right and left, racist and anti-racist, black and white tacitly share a view of it as little more than a collision between fully formed and mutually exclusive cultural communities. "***This has become the dominant view where black history and culture are perceived, like black settlers themselves, as an illegitimate intrusion into a vision of authentic British national life that, prior to their arrival, was as stable and as peaceful as it was ethnically undifferentiated***" (7). As far as my making a U.S. specific cultural assumption... well, I think you're making certain assumptions above. You've mentioned the admixture in British society. Over on our side of the pond, you find the same mixture... geneticists now estimate that 75-90% of African-descended folks over here are racially mixed. That is the case all over the world, actually... so I don't think it's all that unique there. Going on to your next point... > JKR would not be 'misnaming' Dean as 'black' if he had an ethnically > white wizarding British father and an ethnically black muggle > Carribbean mother. Dean would very probably describe *himself* > as 'black British'. This is consistent amongst Anglophone countries for a transatlantic reason... the one-drop rule, that did not apply to other ex-spheres of empire (French and Spanish I know, offhand), but that as recently as the 1980s was invoked in courts. This summer, while in Spain and speaking to people, I described myself as "negra" and every time was corrected, because I was told that I was very obviously "morena"... mixed. So ethnic nomenclature is both specific to culture *and* referenced by empire. As it's late here, I'll resist the impulse to give you all of the reasons in your nation's history why this is so (quite apart from the US). However, I'll just point to a very logical argument that my biracial British friend gives. Although he (and by extension, perhaps Dean) chooses to describe himself as "black British", he could just as easily and legitimately think of himself and describe himself as "white". This is how it is done in Brazil and other parts of Latin America... So again, your rationale brings us back to the problem of the imperial specter, which *is* in JKR's books. > And Angelina Johnson could have got that name through either muggle > slavery, or the muggle Empire. She could be the muggle born child of > West Indian immigrants. Or she could also be the descendant of, say, > a white British Civil Engineer who went to work in Africa and > married a local girl, who turned out to be a witch. And then his > wizarding son Chuekma Johnson decided to use his British connections > to immigrate with his wife to the UK. Pick one; because you could > find equivalents to both those family histories in Britain. Oh, I think I've got a good explanation in my fanfic. And again, this is all stuff I know already. And again, we return to empire. > I personally think JKR is avoiding using modern prejudices. Instead > of risking readers bringing their own prejudices to the reading, > she's using the muggle/wizard divide as a metaphor for > racial/religious prejudice. This is her obvious authorial intent. However, she seemingly has made some of the same interesting assumptions that many of the respondents to my original posts did. That cannot be denied. Me: > > If there was no empire in the history of JKR's > > wizarding world, then why are they being educated in Britain? Pip: > Because they live in Britain! Me again: But *why* do they live in Britain? (Is being v. difficult.) And then, at last, you get to a *part* of what I was getting at: > JKR appears to be trying to reflect the ethnic makeup of modern > muggle Britain. That ethnic makeup is largely a result of the old > muggle British Empire. It says nothing about whether there was an > equivalent Wizarding British Empire. The non white characters at > Hogwarts are representative of the kids I would expect to find at a > modern British school. Right. This is obvious. Still doesn't explain, unless they're all Muggle-born (which is problematic in and of itself, because it's a refutation of her theme to first negate Otherness and then reinforce it that way), why they happen to be there. > Hogwarts has approximately 25% muggle borns. Did we prove this from canon? Large numbers of UK > witches and wizards are half bloods. There have been people of > African, Chinese or Indian subcontinental descent in Britain for two > or three centuries now (though immigration in *large* numbers only > started in the 1950's). It would be much more surprising if the > British Wizarding World was 100% white. *nods* Yes! And they (the Muggles, I mean) are largely there because of empire! What is so insidious about stating that? > The ethnic makeup of Hogwarts does not say anything about an > historical Wizarding Colonial Office, or, say, the attitude of the > British WW to Egyptian magic. It just says that, hide away as it > may, the WW is being affected by the muggle world. But you have to admit that there seems to be an assumption that wizarding Britain is the magical world, and the magical world is wizarding Britain, thus far in the novels. Look at the QWC, at the representations of Beauxbatons and Durmstrang, etc. Now, I'm not saying this is bad or evil. I love the novels. I'm an Anglophile. It does, however, lend credence to the critique of continued neocolonialist themes in contemporary British fantasy... including Harry Potter. Pip: > I would be much more worried that JKR was showing *the pernicious > legacy of empire* if her Hogwarts was entirely white and > middle/upper class. [The main beneficiaries of the Empire]. Oh no, that's not my concern at all. Most of my reading happens to feature white middle/upper class persons, as to be honest, most English-language fiction deals with this class. I have no problem with that at all. However, your post addressed very few of the points that I raised. The legacy of empire in a novel isn't in how many white characters there are, it's about the discourse of power and difference and how that power and difference is articulated. I mean, I most recently did a postcolonial critique of Eliot's *Daniel Deronda*, which certainly wasn't as "diverse" of a novel as Harry Potter... but nevertheless, I saw empire as work there too. Giving a more recent example, one can do a postcolonial reading of Phillip Pullman (one of my *favorite* living authors, actually!), although to me at least in HDM Pullman seems to construct Lyra's world and Cittagazze in a much less predictable way as far as RL empire is concerned. > It isn't. Class wise, the muggle intake ranges from milkman's sons > up; the wizarding intake includes werewolves and half giants. I > think we can safely assume that Hagrid and possibly Lupin are close > to the bottom of the Wizarding class structure. How do we know this about the Muggle intake, though? I agree with you on Hagrid and Lupin. But did Voldemort seek to kill werewolves or Muggleborns? > I'm not terribly concerned that the Trio is entirely white and > middle class; JKR is from that background and is probably sticking > to the rule of 'write what you know about' for her major characters. Huh? I'm not terribly concerned by it, either. Why would I be? See above... most of what I read features white middle-class characters, as if one is any sort of a voracious reader, this is sort of an inescapable fact, isn't it? I do not think that Ron is middle class, however. I see the Weasleys as the working poor. And I would actually split hairs about Harry's Muggle-world class, but it's 1:30 a.m. and I'm sleepy. :-D Thanks for your thorough reply, Pip! I look forward to yours and other responses. --Ebony AKA AngieJ From probono at rapidnet.com Tue Jan 28 07:17:38 2003 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 07:17:38 -0000 Subject: dragon's blood/future/etc/ was:Re: The wizarding world and empire/Grindlewald In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50861 wrote: > JOdel's comments reminded me of an observation I made quite a while > ago (but like most stray thougths in my head - they often get shoved > into a corner and collect quite a bit of dust before they see light > again). > > Given JKR's use of red herrings and her ability to sneak in key > elements as the seemingly mundane - I have often thought that there > is more to the contents of Dumbledore's Wizard Card than meets the > eye. I have no doubt that Grindewald will be key in future > developments. I also believe that the 12 uses of dragon's blood (and > dragons in general) will play a major part. I think we'll see more > of Charlie Weasely and possibly even Norbert. There are so many > references to dragons that it can't just be idle chatter. > > Anyone else have opinions on this they care to share? ME: (sorry if this is posted twice, issues with Yahoomort!) *dusts off old dragon and dragons blood theory* Hmmmm, that's funny I dont remember it being so full of holes. Well dragons aren't mentioned much, but where dragons are presented in canon, I couldn't help but notice some striking similarities between dragons and well....Harry. GoF/20: "Dragons are extremely difficult to slay, owing to the ancient magic that imbues their thick hides, which none but the most powerful spells can penetrate..." (though Sirius says a simple spell can do it) That's funny, Harry is extremely difficult to slay, owing to the ancient magic that imbues his hide, which none but the most powerful spells can penetrate. Then there's the speculation that surrounds Harry eyes/eyeglasses. And later Sirius says that the eyes are a dragon's weakest points (sorry, can't find this reference again). Finally, we know Dumbledore discovered the 12 uses for dragon's blood (one of which I believe is used in the Wolfsbane potion - but that's another theory), and that little gleam in D's eyes at the end of GoF. I posted this theory at the lexicon forum a month ago (seems so long ago) and some there brought up some other similarities, like Harry's natural ability to fly and his accumulated fortune *grin* of course, this would apply to Draco too. And another mentioned the single- minded protection Dragon mothers have for their clutch of eggs? Lily gave her all in protecting Harry, also. I'm not saying Harry is a dragon or could have an animagus form of a dragon. More I was thinking along the lines of dragons blood playing a role in the 'ancient magic' that saves Harry's life. Perhaps that gleam in D's eyes has to do with Harry's blood? Well, this theory is so full of holes it's likely to sink straight to the bottom of Theory Bay. Heck, there's not even enough here to fully qualify it as a 'theory' to begin with! But here it is for you to do with what you will. Perhaps it'd make a nice soda-coozie for those floating out in Tbay? -Tanya (if you think this is bad, wait til you here my Fourth Man is Avery AND Nott theory! From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 07:57:16 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 07:57:16 -0000 Subject: Death Eaters Smorgasbord In-Reply-To: <12b.21493623.2b675a26@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50862 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, baringer2k at a... wrote: > ... I was just reading a fellow poster's favorite line--the one > about Ron wanting to savor the moment when "Moody" bounced the > transfigured Malfoy up and down. > > So, let's consider this: Malfoy's a bully. And when he can't bully, > he's sniveling. Wouldn't it seem that little Draco would immediately > WHINE to his dear old dad about his mistreatment at the hands of > the teacher everyone thought was Moody? > > ...edited... > > It just seems a little off to me that the event got swept under > the carpet. But then, who knows if Malfoy indeed kept up appearances > and lodged a complaint with Dumbledor or the Ministry? > ... > > Marcus in Shreveport bboy_mn speculates: The first thing I have to say is 'pride, foolish pride'. I don't think Draco is too eager to tell his critical father that someone made a fool of him. Also, Draco probably knows that Moody is not exactly a Death Eaters best friend. There is the old saying, 'Let sleeping dogs lie'. So I think, for the most part, Draco kept it to himself, although I'm sure he complained long and hard in the Slytherin common room; I doubt whether it went beyond that. We also need to consider what Draco's father would say when he found out that Draco tired to curse someone while his back was turned, even if that someone was Harry; again, I fall back on an old saying 'honor among theives'. Second point, boys don't resolve playground battle by running and telling; it is strictly against the Code of the Playground. Boy try to resolve these things on their own. Has Harry ever complained to anyone that Draco is constantly harrassing him? Don't think so. He honors the code. Has Neville ever complained. Nope, he to honors the code. Why? Don't have a clue but that's what boys seem to do. Conclusion: Draco whined loud and hard, threatened to tell his father to everyone who would listen. Threatened Moody (fake-Moody) with a thousand curses, but in the end he let it go. Just my opinion. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 08:07:09 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 08:07:09 -0000 Subject: Cauldrons & Bill Weasley In-Reply-To: <1ed.5ec903.2b677232@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50863 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Audra1976 at a... wrote: > maria_kirilenko at y... writes: > > ...edited... > > Does that seem like a family that would name a kid Bilius? I > > don't think so. > > > > > Me: > > They could have, if it was a family name. ...edited... I think Bilius > is entirely plausable. > > Audra bboy_mn: I think once again it is time for us to call upon our resident Brit-Speak authorities. How common is it for someone to be called 'Bill' in the UK? In the US, Bill is frequently short for William. But I notice that Prince William is called Will, while Prince Henry is called Harry. So again, I'm wondering how common the nickname 'Bill' is in the UK. If it is somewhat common that would lead us to think that Bill's name is Williamm. If it is very uncommon then we could conclude that Bill had an unusual name that lent itself well to the nickname Bill. Do we have a resident authority who could help us out here? bboy_mn From oppen at mycns.net Tue Jan 28 09:08:10 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 03:08:10 -0600 Subject: Ludo Bagman's Evil and How It Grew Message-ID: <01ec01c2c6ac$c8861460$90570043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 50864 You can count me in on the "Bagman is _Eee-ville!_" crew. I have a theory of my own to account for a lot of what he did/does. We know that he has, as of the end of GoF, a serious gambling problem. Betting like a fool when he's _already_ in debt to the goblins, who, for all we know, employ a few half-giant types with names like "Vinnie the Legbreaker" and "Brutus Sadistinsky" is not the sign of a person whose gambling is under control. When did he start gambling? He may have already been a "problem gambler" back before we saw him on trial---and gotten mixed up with the DEs either as a way to raise money, or been blackmailed into it at first because he owed _them_ money---and they don't _need_ Vinnie the Legbreaker and Brutus Sadistinsky to collect bad debts, do they? Hiding "in plain sight" as a slightly-thick Quidditch jock, and counting on his thick-headed public _persona_ and his Quidditch fame to protect him, he could easily have been working for the DEs for money. I _have_ known some very intelligent athletes who were rather amused at the idea that because they played, say, football, they had to be semi-literate and dumb as a bag of hammers. And they would sometimes play on that perception for laughs. And why did he stop playing Quidditch? Wizards and witches live _long_ lives, and AFAWK he's not really _old_ yet. We also know that a Seeker can, to some extent, control how the final score goes. What if he was found to be in the pay of gamblers with bets on his team, or gambling himself, and eased out quietly to his position as Quidditch commentator to avoid a scandal? One of the few things that professional Muggle American football teams won't tolerate on their squads is a gambler, because players have so many opportunities to "shave points," as the phrase goes. You can assault, rape, and be implicated in murder (and many American football players have done these things) and go right on playing up till your conviction, and resume playing once you're out of the barry place. A gambler, OTOH, they kick out without mercy. So, Ludo Bagman could well be in with the Death Eaters, but not because of any deep belief in "Lord Voldemort will RUULLE! Bwahahaha!" Instead, he could be working for them entirely for money, either for himself or because he owes some people who have ways of collecting money that would send Tony Soprano and Vito Corleone into fits of pea-green envy. --Eric, picturing a goblin version of Vito Corleone husking "If you had come to me, these Muggles who dishonored your daughter would be weeping bitter tears today." From pen at pensnest.co.uk Tue Jan 28 10:14:02 2003 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:14:02 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] More about the wizarding world and empire... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3955F982-32A9-11D7-8D96-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 50865 On Tuesday, Jan 28, 2003, at 05:17 Europe/London, Ebony wrote: > I did forget to type in my last post that Dean is indeed Muggleborn. Or at any rate, brought up by Muggles. Do we know for certain he is actually Muggle-born? > But Christian, this is like saying that we cannot reach any > conclusions about the true nature of house-elves because thus far in > canon, we have only met two. No other aspect of canon is placed > under such ridiculous constraints. These are only two black > characters that we know of, and they both have European names. My > question still hasn't been answered. Um. My own (admittedly very limited) acquaintance with non-white members of British society leads me to *expect* European names. Let me amplify. Angelina Johnson: this name 'maps' directly onto that of a schoolmate, whose first name was Dolores, and whose surname was either Carr or Kerr, I can't remember which, but either is a perfectly standard British surname. (As Dolores was a tall, athletic, black girl, she is my mental model for Angelina.) For me, the ever-so-slightly-exotic first name - Dolores, Angelina - combined with the ordinary surname - Johnson, Carr - is exactly right for a black Briton of West Indian descent. I would (tentatively) expect a black Briton of straightforwardly African descent to have a more 'exotic' surname, and/or quite possibly a more obviously ethnic forename. But I think - and I haven't checked any statistics here - that blacks of West Indian origin are more common here than blacks from Africa. The latter are at any rate more likely to be relative newcomers. Dean Thomas 'maps' for me onto the son of a friend of mine who had straightforwardly 'British' names. There's no way of knowing from Dean's name that he is black, but it is in no way jarring to think of him as such. (I must say, if it was always JKR's intention that Dean be black, I wish she had mentioned it in passing in the original edition of PS - or else somewhere in one of the later books. A word or two of physical description helps me to get a mental picture of a character. However, her secrecy on the subject of Dean makes me think that unless he is a completely irrelevant 'scenery' character, she must be hiding something! But never mind that now.) Same, incidentally, with Lee Jordan. The name works perfectly well for a white boy or a black one. The dreadlocks, for me at least, are enough of a clue, and I picture him as being of West Indian origin. Now, the Patil sisters are also properly representative, in that I expect people who are ethnically from the Indian sub-continent to have more distinctive names. My daughter occasionally refers to people in her class who must be from this group, because their names are definably different. It would never have occurred to me to think of Parvati Patil as anything other than Indian/Pakistani. Same applies to Cho Chang - the surname is a distinctive marker for a Far Eastern background. > And if they are both Muggle-born, then either intentionally or > subconsciously the author has thus relegated two of the characters > who are racially Other to the Othered group in the wizarding world-- > that of the Muggleborn. So even if their status at It would have > been much more groundbreaking and interesting if at least Angelina > *were* from a pureblooded family. I thought of a definite way that > she could indeed be, but it's far too long to post here. I suggest that having an appropriate-to-Britain surname is neither here nor there when it comes to figuring out whether a witch or wizard is Muggle-born or not. 'Dumbledore' is certainly an exotic surname, explicitly from the wizarding world. 'Weasley', however, would fit right in at school with my own children just as easily as it fits in at Hogwarts. So would Fletcher, or Longbottom. And we know that the Weasleys and the Longbottoms are purebloods. Is there any reason to suppose that the Patils and the Johnsons, are not also purebloods? I submit that we have no way of knowing - except, possibly, that we are never *told* about Malfoy harrassing Parvati! > "I also think it's significant that the other nonwhite characters > that > we see being educated at Hogwarts represent nations that England > either conquered completely (Ireland, India, etc.) or had some sort > of favored nation status with (China--although Hong Kong was under > British control for a long time, yet? Don't know the history > completely there.) If there was no empire in the history of JKR's > wizarding world, then why are they being educated in Britain? > Because Hogwarts is the best school in the world? If so, then *why* > is Hogwarts the best, and not another place where magic likely has > been practiced far longer (China, Egypt, etc.) than in either Britain > or Europe?" I don't see how the wizarding world could have had a parallel existence *without* a British Empire and still been in the same timeline as the world today. And the wizarding world is *supposed* to exist alongside our own real world, isn't it? I mean, that is the point, yes? I don't think it is actually "significant that the other nonwhite characters that > we see being educated at Hogwarts represent nations that England > either conquered completely (Ireland, India, etc.) or had some sort > of favored nation status" if by 'significant' you mean to infer some kind of prejudice against anyone not in those groups. It is simply a fact that our society has absorbed people from, yes, countries that were part of the British Empire at some time in the past - and which therefore have some cultural link with this country. Why would so many people from the West Indies have chosen to move to Britain rather than to the USA? In part, at least, because they had something culturally in common with this country. If you went to Paris, you would see a lot of black people speaking fluent French - I remember that when I went to Paris for the first time, at seventeen, I was taken aback, because I was accustomed to seeing black people speaking English! It hadn't occurred to me then that the French colonised rather a lot of Africa too. Why did those black Africans choose to move to France rather than the UK? Because they had something culturally in common with French society, that's why. (Wonder if there were any black students in the Beauxbatons group?) > Pippin said: > "World-builders must sometime make compromises. If Rowling > had used African surnames when most native-born black British > subjects have anglic names, that would have labelled the black > characters as exotic, when she obviously doesn't want them > perceived that way." Ebony said: > Hmm. I would think that JKR wouldn't think that the use of > traditional names as being exotic... why not Anglicized first names, > and African last names? The fact that canon has a Parvati and Padma > Patil, as well as a Cho Chang, tells me that this author doesn't have > a problem using ethnic and non-Anglicized names. I hope I have answered this, above. Different ethnic groups. > Recapitulating my original points: > > 1) There is evidence that the conception of JKR's wizarding world > was not unaffected by empire. One such evidence is the fact that the > only two black characters have European and not African names. > Another is that the minorities found in the stories happen to be > children from various groups that were from the periphery of the > original empire. Again, I hope I have answered this above. I think JKR's wizarding world was 'affected by empire' to no greater or lesser extent than modern-day British society. This pattern of immigration, absorption, whatever we can call it, may seem peculiar and partial to those whose experience of immigration/absorption is different. But from my English perspective it simply looks as though JKR has reflected the world around me in her books. > > 2) I do not think that the wizarding world in these books is a > utopia from racial or religious prejudices. I did not say wizards > were prejudiced. I do think that the wizarding community seems to be > tolerant of Muggle differences such as race and religion (and perhaps > even sexual orientation). However, as the author herself is a > product of post-imperial Britain, the work is not completely free of > the legacy of empire. Well, no. Of course. She is a product of present-day British society, which is a product of the British society of the past... Somehow, what you're saying comes across as criticism, and I find it difficult to understand why 'the legacy of empire' should be so reprehensible. > Consider the continued primacy of Britain in > this wizarding world. Consider the wizarding world orientation that > GoF gives us. Consider the presentation of the indigenous Africans > that were mentioned at the QWC. The indigenous Africans should be, um, wearing jeans, T-shirts and baseball caps? What is the problem with them? > It is interesting for me to read the books, especially GoF, through > the same theoretical lens that I use while doing my critical work on > 19th and 20th century Britain (that of postcolonial theory and > criticism), and to figure out exactly how JKR is condemning evil and > teaching tolerance in her stories. I agree wholeheartedly that most > of her work is done through normal fantastic means, through the > instances of the house-elves, werewolves and giants, and the > continued persecution of the Muggle-born. This is all well and > good. But one critique that several prominent children's lit > scholars, including the *very* influential Jack Zipes, have leveled > against the Potter books is that they are indeed racist, sexist, and > like much post-1945 British fantasy presents a neocolonial > orientation of the world that reveals disturbing trends in children's > fiction. Zipes, while he is to be admired, is absolutely *wrong* in > this case... as is bell hooks, as are several other prominent > scholars who do not love Harry the same way as you and I do.... but > the critiques that I am making are the ones that they make. Gulp... okay. So why is Zipes wrong? Pen From hp at plum.cream.org Tue Jan 28 10:20:31 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:20:31 -0000 Subject: Cauldrons & Bill Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50866 Steve wrote: > How common is it for someone to be called 'Bill' in the UK? In the US, > Bill is frequently short for William. But I notice that Prince William > is called Will, while Prince Henry is called Harry. > > So again, I'm wondering how common the nickname 'Bill' is in the UK. > If it is somewhat common that would lead us to think that Bill's name > is Williamm. If it is very uncommon then we could conclude that Bill > had an unusual name that lent itself well to the nickname Bill. > > Do we have a resident authority who could help us out here? "Bill" is definitely more common than "Will", at least in the general population (the Royal Family is every so slightly a case apart; Prince Will is a moniker he was given by the press as soon as he was born; they quite possibly thought that "Bill" sounded a bit too common). "Will" is probably less prevalent as an abbreviation for William in the UK than it is in the US. For every Bill Clinton, there's a Will Smith; for every Bill Paxman there's a Will Shatner (though admittedly only his friends call him that; ordinary mortals call him William). I'm trying to think of famous British Williams who go by "Will" of their own choice, and to be perfectly honest the only one I can think of right now is Will Young. I can think of lots of Bills, though: Bill Ashton and Bill Treacher, for starters. And slightly facetiously, The (Old) Bill. :-) Yes, I'm aware that people outside the UK won't have heard of any of them, and I suspect are wondering what The Old Bill means. :-) As a rough indicator, I've just gone through an alphabetical listing of all UK Members of Parliament (in which people are named as they like to call themselves rather than their full names, so our esteemed Prime Minister is listed as Tony rather than Anthony). I found six Bills but err... not a single Will (and interestingly, only two Williams). Does that answer your question? :-) From pen at pensnest.co.uk Tue Jan 28 10:24:09 2003 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:24:09 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Class, Was The wizarding world and empire (for Pip) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50867 On Tuesday, Jan 28, 2003, at 06:26 Europe/London, Ebony wrote: > > I do not think that Ron is middle class, however. I see the Weasleys > as the working poor. I think you are wrong about that. Arthur Weasley is patently a 'white collar worker', and it seems to me pretty clear that he is fairly senior in the Ministry. That defines him as middle class, whether he has money or not. Pen From BriBearBaby at backstreet-wallpaper.net Tue Jan 28 01:05:46 2003 From: BriBearBaby at backstreet-wallpaper.net (Patty) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 20:05:46 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:What year was Voldemort born? References: <200301272309.h0RN9v413910@web23.hostonce.com> Message-ID: <015301c2c669$646c9aa0$0101a8c0@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 50868 Heidi wrote: But Harry will be 16 only in his 6th year, whereas Ron turns 16 at the end of his fifth year - but will be 16 in part of his 6t year as well. That can't be used for determining the year with pinpoint accuracy. That's true Heidi, which is why I had said that it narrowed the dates down "a little bit", because I know it isn't really accurate. Patty [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Tue Jan 28 02:34:48 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 20:34:48 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Yellow Rat Spell - Maybe it really did work References: Message-ID: <3E35EC48.9E2096E6@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50869 Mmmm... I'd say it failed because the rat was not stupid or indeed fat. Not really a rat either. And Peter is not lacking in bravery. Takes a lot of guts to cut off your own arm, you know. Or to milk venom from a giant serpent or tend to Lord Voldemort. He could have in fact. just left the contry and went into hiding.. Jazmyn From stormwynd9 at aol.com Tue Jan 28 03:52:34 2003 From: stormwynd9 at aol.com (stormwynd9 ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 03:52:34 -0000 Subject: is the name "Malfoy Manor" canonical? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50870 A friend and I are disagreeing on the admittedly very nitpicky question of whether the Malfoy family home is actually called "Malfoy Manor" in canon. I say it is, but I can't recall exactly where in the books it's called by that specific name. The HP Lexicon, however, does refer to "Malfoy Manor" by name on the page that talks about the Malfoy family (www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/ malfoy.html). My friend insists that I'm pulling the name "Malfoy Manor" from the Draco Trilogy and that JKR has never actually given the place a formal name. Help! - Stormwynd, who, even if he's right, still thinks that "the Burrow" is a *much* cooler name for a home than "Malfoy Manor" From cantor at vgernet.net Tue Jan 28 04:34:03 2003 From: cantor at vgernet.net (cantoramy ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 04:34:03 -0000 Subject: What would you choose? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50871 I was thinking the other day, as I was changing the linens, a house- elf would be a very nice thing to have. If you could have only one magical thing or creature, what would you choose? A wand is an obvious choice, but there are so many other neat things. cantoramy From falcon21 at flash.net Tue Jan 28 04:46:45 2003 From: falcon21 at flash.net (Falcon) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 22:46:45 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Banter and other SHIP subjects Message-ID: <001401c2c688$45a469d0$57b45a42@falcon> No: HPFGUIDX 50872 Howdy all, I've been lurking here for the past few months, but never really wanted to respond to anything. I was hoping that Penny or Ebony, or Derannimer would take care of this, but since they haven't posted yet, I felt I should say something. I'm a die-hard H/Hr, and even if JKR does R/Hr in canon, I will still be an H/Hr. I read the FAP, and the SugarQuill, and it amuses me that so many people are so concerned with what will make Ron happy. This is Harry's story, he is the one that we are supposed to want the best for, not Ron. I don't like Ron much, because I see in him so many of the guys I went to school with. Anyhoo, on to my post. Angua: >The fact that their exchanges are often humorous is, I think, more >important TO THE READER than it is to Ron and Hermione. We readers >(are supposed to) like seeing Ron and Hermione interact, because it >creates humor, which most readers like. But they don't just create >humor by zinging each other, though that is part of it. They also >create humor by a kind of quick-fire back-and-forth talking, as in >the "really break your leg" example and the "bless you" example. JKR >is giving them comic timing, and it gives the reader the impression >that Ron and Hermione are a good couple, because we enjoy reading >that kind of stuff. In other words, I consider the fact that their >interchanges are humorous as evidence of author intention, rather >than thinking that they'll fall in love because they make beautiful >comedy together. Me: See, I don't see their interaction as humorous at all. The only humor I see is when Hermione puts Ron in his place. He tries to "zing" her, but she usually reacts with a superior air, or a "haughty" tone. Angua> >Now, it may seem that I'm just a crazed shipper here, overanalyzing >what is meant to be an unimportant relationship between two minor >characters. But that can't be, because JKR herself spends so >incredibly much space on their interactions. She shows Ron and >Hermione talking to each other ALL THE TIME. She has set them up >with all sorts of conflicts -- cat/rat, house-elves, Harry-going-to- >Hogsmeade, superstition/scepticism, rules/fun, etc. etc. etc. Now, >some of this is a literary device, to externalize and personalize the >inner conflicts in Harry's mind (angel-on-the-shoulder style). But >it has also had the effect of greatly developing and elaborating the >relationship between these two characters, and making it a >relationship we care about. Me> I have to disagree here. I believe that all Trio Shipping should be analyzed from the viewpoint of what is best for Harry. Ron's feelings do not concern me in the least. All I care about is how Harry and Hermione get together. If Ron's feelings get trampled, then so be it. After GoF, I can't bring myself to care much about the boy. On a separate note, I did discover in GoF that Harry is no longer short, but rather he is average height. It's in the Divination class, where Trelawney says, "your dark hair and mean stature." Mean means average, and stature refers to height. I looked it up in three different books just to make sure. Angua> >Yes, and I will cite them. But I do want to emphasize that Hermione >can enjoy the sparring, ON THE WHOLE, even though she doesn't enjoy >it every single moment. For instance, just dumbly, she can enjoy it >when she's winning, and not enjoy it when she's losing. > >But let me move on to my evidence: > >1 - She starts it. The first "zinger" that is said by either Ron or >Hermione after they become friends is said by Hermione ("very safe, >as they're both dentists" PS/SS Ch.12). There is no characterization >of Hermione's tone here, but, ummm, if not for enjoyment, why else >would she do it? Ron hasn't insulted her or anything -- he just made >a helpful suggestion. Me> It didn't seem like she was trying to make a joke, rather she was simply commenting on her parents' occupations. Angua> >3 - She keeps her cool when Ron does it (PoA. Ch. 4): > >"I've still got ten Galleons," she said, checking her purse. "It's >my birthday in September, and Mum and Dad gave me some money to get >myself an early birthday present." > >"How about a nice *book*?" said Ron innocently. > >"No, I don't think so," said Hermione composedly. "I really want an >owl...." > >I would say 'composedly' is a positive-connotation word. Me> "Composedly" is aside from a few definitions that don't apply here, "to make calm or tranquil." She is responding to Ron's comment with a very calm statement. There is no reason to get upset by his remark. Angua> >Obviously, she didn't enjoy that last bit, when Ron turned the tables >on her and got under her skin with a personal jibe. But I would >claim the words 'calmly,' 'airily,' 'in a superior tone,' >and 'coolly' as having definite positive connotations. Plus, you >can't tell me she didn't enjoy making Ron "mouth wordlessly"! > >That whole passage gives me a positive feeling, and I can't believe >Hermione didn't enjoy it. It is the normal friendly banter (oops! I >mean, ummm, Exchanges) between friends. She started it, too -- >jumping on Harry's remark. And I see both "briskly" and "haughtily" >as positive-connotation words in this context. Me> Okay, this is what brought me out of the woodwork. I have to say that these descriptions of how Hermione is talking are not generally regarded as positive in connotation. In fact, they seem very negative to me. I can't speak for everyone else, but if someone addressed me in a "superior tone", I would be greatly annoyed. Because, if they are speaking in a "superior tone" then that means that they think they are smarter than I. Using your quotes, "In a superior tone" shows that she doesn't think very much of Ron's intelligence. "Coolly" shows that she is indifferent to what he said. But my personal favorite, is this one. "Haughtily" as a positive connotation. "Haughtily" means "vain to the point of arrogance." Hermione is arrogant about her intelligence, and if she is speaking in a "haughty" manner, she is basically putting her nose in the air and speaking "down" to the other person. Basically, "haughty" cannot be positive no matter how it's written. Falcon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kathleen at happ.net Tue Jan 28 07:33:25 2003 From: kathleen at happ.net (happybean98 ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 07:33:25 -0000 Subject: Harry Will Be Accused and Locked up in Azkaban/ His Escape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50873 Pickle Jimmy writes: I don't see the relevance of the occasions that Harry facing Voldemort alone- If "they" don't believe that he was facing LV to vanquish him, why believe that he saw LV at all...(snip) Me: Good point. I guess I should more specifically say that Lucius Malfoy will accuse Harry of being in league with Voldemort. He knows Harry has faced him because he saw the pierced diary and had it returned to him by Harry. He could easily tell a half truth, admitting Harry saw Voldemort, but he could twist Harry's motive for encountering Voldemort alone into an evil one...of helping Voldemort back into power. No one can testify that this was not the case because none of Harry's friends were with him during all three of his encounters except unconscious Ginny. Pickle Jimmy: The only thing "they" may have against Harry is the death of Cedric, but then if he was guilty of Cedric's Death, why would he bring back the body- and if he was suspected, they would have checked his wand to see if AK was the last spell cast. And what is Harry's motive?... Me: Again, good points. But the death of Cedric will be the crowning jewel in Lucius's accusation. You see, Harry needn't have done the dirty work himself...Lucius could simply accuse him of bringing Cedric to Voldemort.. and letting Voldemort finish him off. As for Harry's motive, I think Lucius, with the grief stricken/egotistical Amos Diggory's help, could devise a believable motive. I could see a scene where Cho Chang, at the prompting of Amos Diggory, takes the stand. "Yes, *sob*, *sob*, Harry might have been jealous of Cedric. Yes,*sob*, he asked me to the Yule Ball. Yes, Cedric did beat him to the snitch during that Quidditch match his third year", (etc). Lucius NEEDS to discredit Harry, namely because Harry has witnessed his loyalty to Lord Voldemort as a Death Eater. It is either accuse or be accused. Lucius may even play the "concerned parent" card and fear that his precious Draco, (hexed by Harry and Co. on the train) may be the next victim. Pickle Jimmy: And the book is "kind of" written from Harry's point of view...this would be a bit limiting if he were locked in jail for 1/2 of book 5. Me: Yes, but remember that GoF starts out in the third person narrative, and then jumps to the point of view of Frank Bryce. I could see the possibility of parts of the fifth book being told through the point of view of Voldemort...creepy. Dimo writes: (Commenting on my theory of Harry using the Patronus charm to help him in Azkaban) The only problem with this idea is that you have to have your wand to perform this spell...MoM not going to allow this. Me: Good point. Scratch that theory. I've got a better one. Harry escapes the same way Sirius does! By becoming an Animagus! Sirius escaped by becoming a dog, slipping through the bars and swimming back to the mainland. He survived before that by the knowledge that he was innocent. If Harry learns to be an Animagus, a snowy owl perhaps?, he could slip through the bars and fly home! Becoming an owl would also come in handy before Azkaban. He could pose as Hedwig..or even pose as a school owl and get access to lots of juicy correspondence...from Lucius to Draco perhaps? Fun Fun Fun! Or for all you devoted SHIPers... a note from Ginny to Mum about her affections for Harry? The possibilities are endless... but I digress. Dimo: (Commenting on my theory that the trial against Harry will divide the Weasley's, with Percy testifying for the MoM against Harry.) OOh...now THAT'S an interesting prospect... I never did like Percy... to sycophantic for me:) Me: Glad you agree. I think Harry's trial will be a defining moment for Percy... his ambitions will conflict with his family loyalty, and the Weasley's will reel from his betrayal of Harry. Ethanol writes: (Commenting on my theory that Fudge will welcome Lucius Malfoy's accusation against Harry because it will let him use Harry as the scapegoat.) I like the scapegoat theory. It fits to Fudge's display of disbelief at the end of GoF. Me: Yes. Fudge's cooperation in this is critical to the success of the trial against Harry. Fudge will desperately want to be able to hold his head up to the WW once more. What better way to do this than to give the appearance of "having his man" when he locks up Harry? He will also be able to discredit Dumbledore once Rita Skeeter gets back to him about what she saw in the hospital wing. Fudge will also blame Dumbledore for harboring the previously elusive Sirius Black. Wow! That's 3 for 3 for Fudge! He calms fears about Voldemort by locking up his "assistant" Harry, He discredits Dumbledore,(who has embarrasingly "parted ways" with him), and finally, he has a chance to get his mitts on Sirius Black, courtesy of Rita Skeeter. I know that the thought of Harry in Azkaban is disturbing to many, but maybe by facing his worst fear, Harry will grow stronger and perhaps unlock the mystery of his parent's death. He does hear a little more of their final moments each time he encounters the dementors. Besides.. remember how much nail biting we did thinking about the prospect of Harry facing Voldemort in 1-4? Well, now that Harry has escaped him 3 times... I think we need another challange for him to overcome..otherwise the books may get too predictable. Kathleen From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 07:01:06 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 07:01:06 -0000 Subject: Yellow Rat Spell - Maybe it really did work In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50874 errolowl: > While this is an interesting thought, I'd say the spell > didn't work > because literally he wasn't a rat; and metaphorically he was > already > yellow. Peter's stand against Sirius was not one of bravery ? > it was > the typical rat mentality of resorting to desperate measures when > backed into a corner. A Rat has an excellent sense of self > preservation ? it will run to escape most things ? but a > cornered rat > is a different proposition. If JKR has brought out anything, it is > that Peter values his own skin too much. -- snipped-- > And Amy! I don't believe that he has anything against Harry ? > he > carries no malevolence, no ambition, no cunning agenda ...so > attacking Harry wouldn't even have crossed his mind. > Finwitch: Well, he IS the rat all right... survivor. Yellow does stand out most clearly against black background but is nearly _invisible_ against white. So I can see how the yellow Pettigrew remained so unnoticed amongst those who're loyal to _Albus_... Then this yellow thing stands out when Mr _Black_ reveals him; Yes, well - Scabbers/Peter Pettigrew/ Wormtail was a yellow one, all right -- but as I see yellow as a colour that somethimes stands for gold (heraldics- yellow in flag, gold in the crest), as colour of of spring, fertility, easter, rebirth (as the first spring flowers are yellow and we tend to dye eggs yellow on easter)-- spring-as in *running* - is that where the yellow/coward-thing mentioned comes from? Rat describes Peter Pettigrew's character quite well (which is why rat *is* his animagi form, I believe). Speaking of Pettigrew being there, about to kill Harry... Well... true, he'd not kill Harry off just like that, but he might have been *carrying* Harry's death in. (like black-rats did, hosting the fleas that spread the plague called Black Death...). Quirrelmort was another one of 'rat-like'persons, but this rat - after fleeing from the Dog, the Wolf, Hermione (who has a cat) and Harry (who has Owl and parselmouth) - he's then seen to carry the Death (Voldemort). Ron's spell-- a poem-formed spell with 'Stupid fat rat', no other spell we've heard of is formed as a poem, but is more like a single word... Then again, Ron's lived his all life in a wizard-family among magic - if poem-formed spells didn't exist, I doubt that Ron would have believed Fred/George who told him of it... (Didn't he say one of the twins taught it to him? - Maybe Fred/George _did_ turn Percy's rat yellow with the spell first...) So well... I guess it _was_ a real spell. Poems could be a form of _ancient_ magic that traditional wizarding families know of, but those aren't thought in Hogwarts grades 1-4 unless it's in a course Harry didn't take (Alohomora is more effective than 'ink, bottle and pen, make this lock open' so well...) Still, one reason why I think Ron's spell didn't work, was that he didn't _have_ any mellow or other items mentioned and that he tried to use wand for _ancient_ magic. -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 07:41:52 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 07:41:52 -0000 Subject: A theory regarding the "innocence" of Sirius Black and the Redemption of Peter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50875 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "webba28 " wrote: > on, which leads me to ponder this quote by professor Trelawney in > PoA: > > > > quote: > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > ---------- > The Dark Lord lies alone and friendless, abandoned by his followers. > His servant has been chained these twelve years. Tonight before > midnight...will break free and set out to rejoin his master... > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > ---------- Hmm... Sirius _had_ broken free long before this prediction, so it wasn't about him. Nor was Sirius *chained* though he was behind bars, surrounded by Dementors. Still Wormtail *was* chained (though not twelve years)- chained between Ron and Remus Lupin. These were his "chains" - one who _might_ have recognised him and another who kept close watch to the pet rat. He broke free from these chains when Remus transformed and he did as well... Speaking of that scene, though- When Sirius dragged Remus away as a dog, he also happened to save stunned!Snape's life as well as all three kids (though those three probably could have managed for themselves, Harry&Hermione helping Ron, they'd not have saved Snape). Snape just doesn't know it yet or does he know and hates Sirius for that as he does with James Potter or how we should interpret it? -- Finwitch From renitentraven at hotmail.com Tue Jan 28 11:38:58 2003 From: renitentraven at hotmail.com (Lisa Armstrong ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 11:38:58 -0000 Subject: Sports and cheating, it ups the ante, it could explain Bagman Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50876 Amy Z wrote Me; Harry peforms magic quite adequately in POA when he charges down Malfoy with his first full-formed patronus. In professional Quidditch wands are both; a.Permitted to be carried. b.Have been used enough to necessitate rules being drawn up regarding their correct usage. source pg.29 Quidditch through the Ages - 'Rule 6. Wands may be taken onto the pitch, but must under no circumstances whatsoever be used against opposing team members, any opposing team members broom, the referee, any of the balls or any members of the crowd.' (Note the,probably, unintentional loop-hole. There is nothing here preventing magic on your own team members etc. But I imagine this point is taken as granted and governed by the general sense of fair-play.) O.K. now onto fair-play, I'll use the Triwizard as an example. Quote, 'Cheating's a traditional part of the Triwizard Tournament.' Crouch-as-Moody, GOF,(english p.b.), Pg.300. The actions of Karkaroff and Madame Maxine confirm this, as both their champions are well aware they're facing dragons before they enter the enclosure. Even disallowing Karkaroff and Crouch-as-Moody as examples because of their DE status; Madame Maxine, later trusted by Dumbledore to act on his behalf with the giants, clearly cheats. So does Harry, Dobby, Hermione and.......Ludo Bagman (given the chance.) So I think some players would cheat. I think Ludo Bagman did. I think it would be part of an overall corrupt personality, (if you go Evil!Bagman), or just a general degenerate one, (if you go Loser! Bagman). I agree with Patty , as the Veela were on the field when they wreaked their havoc. But I think the oppurtunity to unfairly influence game outcomes is there for those who will exploit it.(Maybe to win a bet.) Cheers, Lisa From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 13:03:50 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 13:03:50 -0000 Subject: More about the wizarding world and empire... In-Reply-To: <3955F982-32A9-11D7-8D96-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50877 First off, this is an INCREDIBLE thread. Let's keep it going, eh? Now, a few points (just a few): Ebony writes: one critique that several prominent children's lit scholars, including the *very* influential Jack Zipes, have leveled against the Potter books is that they are indeed racist, sexist, and like much post-1945 British fantasy presents a neocolonial orientation of the world that reveals disturbing trends in children's fiction. I respond: I know that JKR wrestles with constant accusations of the Potterverse lacking adequate female role-models. And although I love Hermione, and I adore McGonagall, Hermione is really a bit of that girl who overcompensates by study-study-studying (probably pressured by her parents, if she's like my friends were) while the guys in the class lounge around and loaf and still manage to pass. In fact, the trio resembles my childhood friends uncannily. And McGonagall does seem a bit repressed, right down to her blanket adoration of and subservience to Dumbledore's authority? And the other female characters are fairly stereotypical and undeveloped - and perhaps (heartbreakingly) the best example of this is Mrs. Weasley the good-cook/homemaker, whom I love to death, but she is fairly run-of-the-mill as far as the stereotypes go. Cook, clean, raise the kids while Arthur's off at work. And can you name a high ranking ministry official who's a woman? Can you name even any ministry official who's a woman? The *only* female ministry official I can name is Bertha Jorkins, and she's hardly a trend-breaker. GulPlum wrote: "Back to the subject at hand: I agree with Christian and I don't really see why Dean and Angelina having Western names indicate the magical community's racial prejudice; on the contrary, the magical community appears to be quite colour-blind. They do, of course, have their pure-blood/Muggle-born prejudices, but that's something different." I respond, re: GulPlum and Zipes: I think the operative words up there are "appears to be." I also think that Zipes has, to some degree, a point with the racism, too. Can you name one Ministry official who's from a racial group other than white? Crouch, Bagman, Fudge - all affluent white males. Can you name one Hogwarts professor who's from a racial group other than white? Nope. Neither can I. Not one. Along these lines, I thought it was pretty sad when Cedric got selected by the Goblet of Fire over Angelina. Sure, sure, it serves a plot device, I know, but didn't anyone else see the "privileged white kid gets selected over black girl" thing, or was that just me? Really too bad - I was rooting for Angelina. And you know, we've gotta give JKR some credit - Ron and the Gryffindors all root for her because she's a Gryffindor. Race has nothing to do with it. And so, I would submit that all of this does represent an UNDERLYING premise about the role of race and sex in a post-colonial world where, for all of our muggle legal advances, certain basic assumptions really haven't changed. As an example, my mom and grandmother assured me most violently at Christmas that they didn't think that a woman *could* be president of the U.S. in this dangerous day and age. Get that: not even "should," but "could." *scoffs* Of course, I was shocked, but how do you argue with WOMEN who trounce the very lessons that THEY taught you to believe? So, it would appear that the specter of empire and the throwback to old prejudices is *definitely* included (whether JKR intended it or not) as an assumption in her creation of the British WW. You know, I really enjoyed someone's observation in another thread to the effect that JKR was implying that the British WW holds currently the place in the magical world that the British empire held in the muggle world a hundred years ago. And I see some credence to that. In a way, it's an inborn defense, a way of asserting relevance in a world in which the Brits are really either subsumed into the whole of Europe, or coined as America's lackeys. In fact, just read a poll in the NYTimes yesterday that Blair's taking heat for just that criticism. Tough place to be in, really. And so she creates this world in which the Brits are tip-top, kings of the mountain. It's got a beautiful sort of nostalgia to it, really. But JKR's attempt to divert the prejudicial issue into something a little more fantastic, like bigotry against mudbloods, werevolves and giants, really doesn't overthrow the point that the assumptions are *still* built-in. Ebony writes: 2) I do not think that the wizarding world in these books is a utopia from racial or religious prejudices. I did not say wizards were prejudiced. I do think that the wizarding community seems to be tolerant of Muggle differences such as race and religion (and perhaps even sexual orientation). However, as the author herself is a product of post-imperial Britain, the work is not completely free of the legacy of empire. Ebony, I could not agree more with you. Right on the head of the nail. OH - and something else that crossed my mind: What if the native African wizards who immigrated to the UK send their kids BACK to their roots for study? That might explain why we have no Odunbakus at Hogwarts. Just an idea. -Tom, who realizes that he really didn't even begin to tackle the entirety of the subject, but figured he'd throw in his own two cents and comment some more later on. From sevothtarte at gmx.net Tue Jan 28 13:21:36 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 14:21:36 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] is the name "Malfoy Manor" canonical? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50878 Stormwynd: >A friend and I are disagreeing on the admittedly very nitpicky question of >whether the Malfoy family home is actually called "Malfoy Manor" in canon. I >say it is, but I can't recall exactly where in the books it's called by that specific >name. I don't have the book here to quote from, but in CoS, when Harry is hiding in the shop in Knockturn Alley and overhears Lucius Malfoy trying to sell his poisons lest the Ministry finds them, Malfoy tells Boggins he expects him to pick them up at the manor the next day. However, after Lucius has left, Boggins uses the word manor in a sarcastic way, as if he's implying it isn't really that great a house .... Torsten From christi0469 at hotmail.com Tue Jan 28 13:58:56 2003 From: christi0469 at hotmail.com (christi0469 ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 13:58:56 -0000 Subject: A theory regarding the "innocence" of Sirius Black and the Redemption of Peter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50879 > >Marianne wrote > Dumbledore says "Why so glum, Harry?".."You should be proud of > yourself after last night." > > "It didn't make any difference".."Pettigrew got away." > > "Didn't make any difference?" said Dumbledore quietly. "It made all > the difference in the world, Harry. You helped uncover the truth. You > saved an innocent man from a terrible fate." > Now, although Dumbledore again mentions no names, who else can he be > talking about here, except Sirius? What other man had a terrible fate > hanging over him the previous night? > > Dumbledore could have just as easily been referring to saving Pettigrew from being killed be Remus and Sirius. I happen to personally believe that Sirius was the innocent man based on Dumbledore's apparent trust in him at the end of GOF; however, I think JKR is setting us up to doubt Sirius in the future. Christi T. From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Jan 28 13:56:29 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 13:56:29 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Multiple endings (was Authorial intent, etc.) In-Reply-To: <001b01c2c4ac$0002d5c0$723b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50880 Debbie wrote: > One final thought on David's "two valid endings." If JKR chose *not* to ship the Trio to one another within the four corners of the series, but to conclude it with the Trio as still (or perhaps again) best friends, would that not allow us to continue to view either ship as valid? Or any other ship? Or no ship? Yes, it would, but that's not quite what I meant by two valid endings. I haven't read very much of the kind of literature that I have in mind, but doesn't The French Lieutenant's Woman have something of the kind? Maybe I confused everybody by calling this the post-modernist option. So, for Shipping in the Potterverse, alternative endings would mean *two* epilogues. One might be H/H and the other H/R. To fully qualify, the epilogues would have to have the following properties: - they should individually be consistent with the rest of canon; - they should be mutually contradictory; - ideally, they should embody mutually contradictory *interpretations* of canon. So, one epilogue could be R/H and refer to the moment in the potions lesson when Hermione blushed because of her feelings for Ron. The other could be H/H and refer to the same incident, interpreting the blush as being for Harry. Other non-shipping possibilities would be Voldemort wins/Voldemort loses/Voldemort repents; Draco's destination; any other hotly debated theory. I don't believe in any of this for a minute, but it struck me as a logical possibility. David From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 13:22:02 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 13:22:02 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's childhood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50881 Andrea writes: I picture a pregnant Mrs. Riddle, abandoned by her husband for being magic and cast out by her family for consorting with a Muggle, knowing she was weak and there's a strong possibility she won't survive the birth. So she writes out a long letter to her unborn child, which she gives to someone at the orphanage and insists he be given the letter at a certain age. Either way, the letter would have also mentioned her own family and the legend that's been passed down about Slytherin's Heir. Annemehr writes: Alternatively, if you don't want to suppose that Riddle's mother feared she would not survive childbirth, Riddle could have found out about his mother's family after his arrival at Hogwarts. It would be easy to believe that there would be *someone* there he could ask about the name "Marvolo", who would remember the man himself (Riddle's grandfather), and could tell him very much. Riddle probably found out all he could from different people and began putting things together. I reply: I see the synthesis of these two to be, actually, very similar to Harry's own situation, and given their other similarities, it seems to me the most likely route. I figure that Riddle was probably picked up at the orphanage by some envoy of Hogwarts after the requisite letters were sent. He was probably brought to the school, and told briefly about his background by Dippet or someone(s) else there. And he had friends, too, he says, so it wouldn't surprise me if he somehow befriended someone who would have known his mother and/or Marvolo. As for the letter from mother to son, I really don't see that as a possibility. First of all, I know that orphanages are VERY tight about what information they allow to be passed to the kids from the parents (for the kids' own stability - you know - rejection and all that being a super-sensitive subject,) and they DEFINITELY wouldn't allow a sealed letter to be passed to a kid without checking it first. So, can you *imagine* the head of the orphanage opening a letter about wizardry and magical lineage? It'd be gone pronto. Once he was told about the name Marvolo, he probably would have researched his own lineage as far back as he could. How he stumbled on the information that he might be Slytherin's heir, we can only guess, but I'll bet that it had something to do with his ability to speak Parseltongue. Then, with all of his resentment of his father (whom he probably never met until he killed him and his grandparents in Little Hangleton,) you can see how the festering anger and the desire for retribution, combined with the *possibilty* that he could be Slytherin's heir, would exhort him to seek out the Chamber of Secrets. -Tom From trondmm-hp4gu at crusaders.no Tue Jan 28 13:27:13 2003 From: trondmm-hp4gu at crusaders.no (Trond Michelsen) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 14:27:13 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] is the name "Malfoy Manor" canonical? In-Reply-To: ; from stormwynd9@aol.com on Tue, Jan 28, 2003 at 03:52:34AM -0000 References: Message-ID: <20030128142713.B31493@crusaders.no> No: HPFGUIDX 50882 On Tue, Jan 28, 2003 at 03:52:34AM -0000, stormwynd9 wrote: > A friend and I are disagreeing on the admittedly very nitpicky question of > whether the Malfoy family home is actually called "Malfoy Manor" in canon. I > say it is, but I can't recall exactly where in the books it's called by that specific > name. The HP Lexicon, however, does refer to "Malfoy Manor" by name on > the page that talks about the Malfoy family (www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/ > malfoy.html). > > My friend insists that I'm pulling the name "Malfoy Manor" from the Draco > Trilogy and that JKR has never actually given the place a formal name. Well, I don't think she's ever called it "Malfoy Manor", she's definately not done so in the books. However, both Draco and Lucius referred to their home as "the manor" in CoS. --8<-- CoS, Ch. 4 At Flourish and Blotts Good day to you, Mr. Borgin. I'll expect you at the manor tomorrow to pick up the goods. --8<-- --8<-- CoS, Ch. 12, The Polyjuice Potion You know the Ministry of Magic raided our manor last week? --8<-- So, you can safely call it Malfoy's manor, but I don't think you can automatically give it the name "Malfoy Manor". -- Trond Michelsen From ArtsyLynda at aol.com Tue Jan 28 14:09:00 2003 From: ArtsyLynda at aol.com (ArtsyLynda at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 09:09:00 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dursley's bribed? charmed? or afraid? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50883 Patty wrote > Do you think that, aside from the Dursley's being Harry's only living > relatives, that maybe one of the reasons that Dumbledore sends him back to > them each summer is to also strengthen him for greater battles yet to come? > He may not be allowed to use his magic while away from Hogwarts, but Harry > is still able to gain his strength, wisdom and indepenence through the > trials that he must endure with his muggle family. I guess the old saying > could be true in this case: What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. > I think you're right in this -- poor Harry, having to deal with all he's had to in his life, and still having to suffer through those summers with them after finding his "home" at Hogwarts! On the initial question (subject line), I seriously doubt the Dursleys were bribed -- they would know money was coming from somewhere and that somebody might be overseeing them in some fashion, so they would have been forced to treat Harry better, to provide his OWN clothes, not Dudley's hand-me-downs, etc. Charmed? Nope, I don't think so, or they wouldn't be so awful to him. Afraid? Nope, not that either, or again, they would think there just might be "consequences" for their actions toward Harry. I think they worry so much about how their neighbors perceive them that they actually do take care of Harry (he does have glasses, after all, which aren't hand-me-downs and apparently are the right prescription -- so they HAVE taken SOME care of him). So, they do take care of him, albeit as little as possible, because that's what's "expected." The neighbors know they had this child dumped on their doorsteps and will think kindly of the Dursleys for taking in the poor orphan (currying favor -- with Muggles anyway -- is something the Dursleys are very fond of doing, from all appearances). I think Dumbledore placed Harry there in the first place, rather than keeping him in the wizarding world, to strengthen him for the battles yet to come -- and to hide him from Voldemort's followers, who might very well have tried to hunt him down, if they'd known where to look. They probably didn't think to look in the Muggle world, and Dumbledore did set some kind of protections around Harry there. Also, Harry has gained a huge understanding of the Muggle world, something that will be of great benefit to him in the future, in some way. I honestly wish Rowling would keep the series going through Harry's adult years, because I'd love to see where he goes and what he does with his talents. JMHO Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley, PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ArtsyLynda at aol.com Tue Jan 28 14:20:47 2003 From: ArtsyLynda at aol.com (ArtsyLynda at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 09:20:47 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dursley's charmed, bribed, afraid? Message-ID: <1eb.659cff.2b67ebbf@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50884 In a message dated 1/27/2003 2:13:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > Perhaps the letter told them how famous he would be and that spurned the > Dursleys to resent him. All of this being part of Dumbledores master plan, > as he seems to know everything before it happens. > > BoBaFeTT > re the letter left with baby Harry, I suspect it told how his parents were killed, MAYBE that Harry was destined to be a great wizard, but certainly that he was being given to the Dursleys because they're his only living relatives. It probably also included information on how to contact Dumbledore in case he was needed, which would have annoyed the Dursleys even more, IMHO, than being stuck with magical child. They knew he had magic in him and kept trying to stifle it, so I don't think they honestly thought there would be any consequences to them from the magic community, that Harry had truly been dumped on them and wasn't going to be reclaimed. Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 14:25:19 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 14:25:19 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and Grindelwald (WAS: What year was Voldemort born?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50885 JOdel, that was fantastic analysis! A few points: JOdel writes: For one thing, so far as we've been *told*, Riddle knew nothing of the WW when he entered the WW. And yet by the end of his first year he was searching for the Chamber. Five years later he knew how to create a Dark artefact like the diary. Now, young Tom may have been a ticking time bomb, up to his ears in "issues" when he reached Hogwarts, but he was a human child, and one with no previous knowlege of magic. Somebody "got to" him. I reply: I completely agree with you. I think that we're going to hear more about this - after all, it makes Voldemort that much more interesting and tragic if he has/had a good quality or intentions that was/were stamped out or diverted by another influence. JOdel writes: WHat is more, if he "disapeared" immediately upon leaving school, [apart from a guest appearance in Little Hangleton] then he was almost certainly in contact with someone who was able to help him make this possible. I reply: I know - you don't just "disappear" after leaving a school like Hogwarts, especially not if you're the most brilliant student the school has ever seen. Riddle was probably being hunted by the MoM as a job-candidate, and I'm sure dozens of other prospective employers wanted his services ala Gringotts and so forth. And besides - one doesn't just disappear without contacts. When one disappears, one GOES somewhere. JOdel: The Dark Arts are not currently taught at Hogwarts (only Defense). But we don't know how long this has been the case. It is quite possible that this is a comparitively recent policy established when Dumbledore became Headmaster. Lupin and his friends were 22-23 when Voldemort was first defeated, on the night of 10/31/81. Consequently if they were 20-21 when Harry was born, they would have started Hogwarts around 1969. Therefore, the question is; was it purely by chance that Voldemort only went public the year that Harry's parents started Hogwarts? Or did the fact that Albus Dumbledore was now Headmaster (rather than in any other official capacity elsewhere) have something to do with it? Was Voldemort waiting until Dumbledore was out of the way before resurfacing? I reply: This is incredible! It seems very likely that Grindelwald was a Dark Arts teacher at Hogwarts. And it also makes sense that Voldemort would go public once Dumbledore had distractions that would keep his attention elsewhere - i.e. the safety of the students at the school. Better to show up when your biggest threat is distracted by students and his primary job not only *isn't* finding you, but would be actually undermined if he tried! Brilliant, in a way. Hogwarts = the diversion Voldemort needs in order to keep Dumbledore away while he plays. And once he'd subsumed everything else, Hogwarts would have fallen without support. You know, I *never* connected Harry's parents and Lupin et al attending Hogwarts just as Voldemort began to rise. What a connection to make! JOdel writes: If Dumbledore had only just become Headmaster, what had he been doing since 1945? Either defeating Grindlewald was no big deal, and no one made a great hero of him for it, and he had been blamelessly teaching at Hogwarts during the intervening period... or, defeating Grindlewald was a big enough deal that he was offered and had accepted some other job somewhere else, possibly in the Ministry, only returning to Hogwarts as Headmaster for the academic year beginning 1969. I reply: Or, perhaps that's when Dumbledore was off working with Nicolas Flamel and working on his research on dragon's blood? And he could have been at the Ministry, after all, someone in canon suggested that they originally wanted Dumbledore for Fudge's job, and I highly doubt that they'd offer the job to him if he'd had no Ministry experience whatsoever. After all, the Ministry seems a bit like a closed club, you know? JOdel writes: I would suggest that Grindlewald was regarded as a nuisance rather than a threat (by anyone who had heard of him. I propose that the name is about as genuine as the name "Voldemort" is) until after his defeat, and that something in the investigation following that defeat suggested (to Dumbledore, although possibly not to others) that there was an organization behind him and that there was more going on beneath the surface than one Dark wizard carrying on in a manner that might pose a potential a problem to the WW's security. I reply: I agree that Grindelwald seemed like more of a nuisance than a major threat - first because he doesn't get any near the amount of press that Voldemort does (whereas, by comparison, Hitler is a much more terrifying prospect than Saddam Hussein could ever be), and second because Dumbledore defeated him *alone* - there was no major coalition or group action or anything. And if it was done jointly, like the alchemy stuff with Flamel, you'd think that the trading card would have mentioned it. You know, I was trying to figure out the other day why Dumbledore, an instructor at Hogwarts, would be off defeating a great dark wizard on his own... I mean, aren't there, like, ministry people, aurors or something, who do that sort of thing? It just seems absurd that a teacher would do this - it'd be like sending McGonagall off to battle Voldemort on her own. Doesn't-make-sense. That's why I submitted that maybe Voldemort is somehow part of Grindelwald's overall plan - after all, we never did learn what Dumbledore's "defeat" of Grindelwald entailed. Is he in Azkaban now? Was he killed? Was he subjected to the dementor's kiss? Maybe he's in hiding? Or maybe, he was somehow used by Voldemort in one of those "dangerous transformations." Especially if Voldemort was "groomed," as you suggest, for his position as Dark Lord. JOdel writes: I'd like to know more about Grindlewald myself. But this whole setup has the sort of elaborate trappings which suggest that it could turn out to be a particularly gaudy and distracting red herring. We'll have a better indication of the matter if Grindlewald (who to date has been merely a name on a chocolate frog card) is mentioned at *any* point in the 5th book. If he is significant, it is about time he was reintroduced to the story line. I reply: I completely agree. And I don't think it's just a red herring. I think that JKR probably never realized what kind of a fanatical base would develop around these books and the storyline, and I bet that the Grindelwald mention was designed to be read and entirely forgotten about until such point as she saw fit to bring him back up. I'm leaning now towards something like this: Riddle is contacted by Grindelwald or one of his agents at Hogwarts while he's still at school, and he disappears after school in order to seek out the Dark Lord and formally begin training under him. Some of that ensues, until Dumbledore, who already suspected Riddle of foul play re: Hagrid, realizes what is going on, and goes off to hunt down Grindelwald. He DOES, but isn't able to capture/stop Riddle, who escapes. Somehow, over the next few years, Riddle/Voldemort is able to incorporate the work of Grindelwald, and perhaps part of Grindelwald *himself* or (Grindelwald's powers) into him, in an effort to continue doing what his master had begun. Of course, only Dumbledore knows of the connection, and he is characteristically mute about the issue. So, realizing that there's nothing he can do (for now) he goes and does... uhhh... something, until he assumes the Headmastership at Hogwarts. At which point, Riddle/Voldemort is now ready to reassert himself in the world, and has no reason to fear Dumbledore because he'll be busy securing Hogwarts from attack. Which is fine by Voldemort, because he doesn't have designs on Hogwarts, for the time being. While Dumbledore is securing the school, he's NOT interfering with Voldemort's plans for conquest. Then Voldemort proceeds to try to eliminate all threats to his assumption of power, and meets his demise thanks to Harry, and we're only now seeing the fallout of the whole thing. Oh man, there's GOT to be something to Grindelwald. I'm CONVINCED of it. Only just under 6 months until we find out! -Tom From ArtsyLynda at aol.com Tue Jan 28 14:30:51 2003 From: ArtsyLynda at aol.com (ArtsyLynda at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 09:30:51 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort and Grindelwald Message-ID: <169.19d566a0.2b67ee1b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50886 Tom Wall wrote: > where exactly > does someone learn the Dark Arts, anyways? One would presume that > someone should be taught. So, who does the teaching All your points about Voldemort and Grindelwald are well-taken and make a lot of sense. This quote above jumped out at me -- seems to me it's an easy answer. The library has all KINDS of books and a huge restricted section. If Harry's dad and his buddies could figure out how to Transfigure themselves into animals (I remember reading -- can't quote where -- that they "worked it out" themselves -- dunno why they wouldn't have learned it from McGonagal), and Hermione, Harry and Ron (mostly Hermione, seems like) can figure out spells and potions to use for certain "projects" that are "outside class parameters" then it seems reasonable to think someone could research the Dark Arts in the restricted section as well. Also, there has to be a reason most bad wizards started out as Slytherins -- maybe they do something in their common room, or have reference books there, whatever, that's different than the rest of the school? Just speculation, but the way people like Malfoy's minds work, they wouldn't be doing "extra reading" or "leisure reading" in the same kinds of books as Harry, Ron and Hermione, IMHO. Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 14:36:47 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 14:36:47 -0000 Subject: Dursley's charmed, bribed, afraid? In-Reply-To: <1eb.659cff.2b67ebbf@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50887 Lynda writes: re the letter left with baby Harry ... It probably also included information on how to contact Dumbledore in case he was needed, which would have annoyed the Dursleys even more, IMHO, than being stuck with magical child. I reply: Maybe the letter also clued them in about Mrs. Figg? We're never really told exactly *how* it is that the Dursleys know her, are we? It seems a little serendipitous that they'd just HAPPEN to meet her somewhere. Probably more likely that Dumbledore told them in the letter something like "...blah blah blah and I cannot stress to you how important it is that he stay safe, so if you ever have reason to go off and need to leave Harry to be babysat, then contact Arabella Figg at this address and she will be glad to keep watch over the boy." Or something like that. After all, she lives two streets away from them, so it's not as though they're just outside in the garden chatting together or anything. -Tom From ArtsyLynda at aol.com Tue Jan 28 14:48:16 2003 From: ArtsyLynda at aol.com (ArtsyLynda at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 09:48:16 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cauldrons and Bill Weasley Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50888 Carolyn wrote: > what do the students do with their cauldrons > once they get to school? It's not very practical to think that they > carry their cauldron around with them until Potions class, because > cauldrons are heavy. Pewter isn't a very heavy metal, and they were supposed to have a #2 pewter cauldron, as I recall (no book handy). In various places, we read that some student supplies (various things, various places) were tossed into the cauldron to be carried. A pewter cauldron would probably weigh less than the huge books they carry around "for light reading" LOL! And wizard bodies are tougher than Muggle bodies -- witness the falls from great heights that only result in a broken wrist (Neville's first flying lesson) or Harry's 50 foot fall from his broom -- both boys would've died from such falls had they been Muggles. Plus, look at the great distances they have to go between classes, with all those staircases that will insist on changing at inopportune times. Those kids ought to be really fit and strong, so carrying a pewter cauldron around shouldn't be that hard. But the main thing is -- the cauldrons are supposed to be pewter, and they probably aren't very big, maybe saucepot size to do small samples of potions such as they'd do in class. JMHO. As for Bill/Bilius Weasley -- well spotted! I hadn't noticed that myself. :-> Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 15:08:33 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:08:33 -0000 Subject: Vernon's Drill Co; (was Dursley's bribed?, charmed? or afraid?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50889 Tanya wrote: Dagnabbits! I just might have to respectfully agree with you here, because I've just come across this passage (PoA/2) that reads: "...Uncle Vernon bored them all with a long talk about Grunnings, his drill-making company..." *respectful grumbling* I concede. Andrea replied: I ... submit ... owning a company does not mean one is automatically disgustingly wealthy with a huge house. ...edited.. So I don't think it's necessarily a given that Vernon either IS or ISN'T the owner of Grunnings. ... He's definitely upper management at the least, though. bboy_mn wrote: Given what Ali said about the use of the term 'Director' in the UK, and looking at Dudley's birthday gifts, which I estimate at between us$800 and us$1,000, I'm inclined to give Vernon a promotion. He is not longer management but an executive; probably the equivalent of a vice president. And I reply: Two things here - 1) $800-$1000 for the gifts? Again: "...Harry and Uncle Vernon watched Dudley unwrap the racing bike, a video camera, a remote control airplane, sixteen new computer games, and a VCR. He was ripping the paper off a gold wristwatch when..." (PS/SS 22) That's only 21 of his 39 presents, and frankly, I'm very skeptical of $1000 as an upward limit for the just the 21 gifts we have heard of from the passage, never mind the remaining 18, whatever they may be. I think we're talking at least double that ($1500-$2000 U.S.) for the birthday gifts. Minimum - even that estimate may be low depending on how much the Dursleys give credence to brand names and so forth. 2) I don't want to be too nitpicky about Vernon's position, but canon (PS/SS 1) says that Vernon is "the" director, not "a" director. Vice presidents and managers come in groups. I think we're talking *minimum* presidency, maybe even part ownership... there's not necessarily any mention of the company being public, so that would work. STILL, I want to say that I agree with Tanya (even though she conceded :-P) that I don't think that he's an owner - I really think that the distinction between executive and owner is so great that JKR would have said something to that effect if he was the owner. After all "ownership" implies more of an entrepreneurial spirit than mere management. A spirit, I'll throw in, that I don't really think Uncle Vernon has. And about the Dursley's home, I mean, we know that they've been there for at least, what, 14-15 years? Maybe they're moving up in the world and will be looking for new digs in one of the subsequent books? -Tom From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Tue Jan 28 15:40:48 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:40:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Class, Was The wizarding world and empire (for Pip) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030128154048.94926.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50890 --- Pen Robinson wrote: > > On Tuesday, Jan 28, 2003, at 06:26 Europe/London, > Ebony > wrote: > I do not think that Ron is middle class, however. > I see the Weasleys > as the working poor. The Weasleys? Working poor? Translating from my Spanish edition of CoS. "The Weasleys are one of our most promiment pureblood families." An influential position at the Ministry. The Malfoys adressing them as equals, who have fallen from a higher estate. If the Weasleys are the working poor, I'm out on the street panhandling. Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From sevothtarte at gmx.net Tue Jan 28 15:48:53 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 16:48:53 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Yellow Rat Spell - Maybe it really did work In-Reply-To: <3E35EC48.9E2096E6@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50891 Jazmyn: >And Peter is not lacking in bravery. Takes a lot of guts to cut off your >own arm, you know. Or to milk venom from a giant serpent or tend to >Lord Voldemort. He could have in fact. just left the contry and went >into hiding.. No, he's desperate and incapable of taking care of things himself. He needs someone strong to protect him and to tell him what to do. And his 'bravery' is born out of desperation, too. Cutting off his own arm is still better than facing what LV would do to him if he refused to do it. So it's not real, hero-type bravery, it essentially is just the opposite, cowardice. He's too afraid of one thing, so he faces the other thing, always taking the easier route. Torsten From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 16:14:50 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 08:14:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort and Grindelwald In-Reply-To: <169.19d566a0.2b67ee1b@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030128161450.44532.qmail@web40512.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50892 --- ArtsyLynda at aol.com wrote: > If Harry's dad and his buddies could figure out how > to Transfigure themselves > into animals (I remember reading -- can't quote > where -- that they "worked it > out" themselves -- dunno why they wouldn't have > learned it from McGonagal), There's a big difference between transfiguring and becoming an animagus. Yes, eventually they would probably learn how to transfigure into something else (like Krum's attempt to transfigure into a shark for the second task) in their transfiguration class, but that's something totally different from actually becoming an animagus. I think you can probably only Transfigure something for a certain period of time, while you could transform into your animagus form for years (Petigrew for example) which is why you don't have to register to be allowed to Transfigure. They're similar, but different at the same time. ~Kathryn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From eloiseherisson at aol.com Tue Jan 28 16:24:54 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 11:24:54 EST Subject: Bill (was: Cauldrons and Bill Weasley) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50893 I see Richard got there first, but my perspective is slightly different! Bboy-mn: >How common is it for someone to be called 'Bill' in the UK? In the US, >Bill is frequently short for William. But I notice that Prince William >is called Will, while Prince Henry is called Harry. > >So again, I'm wondering how common the nickname 'Bill' is in the UK. >If it is somewhat common that would lead us to think that Bill's name >is Williamm. If it is very uncommon then we could conclude that Bill >had an unusual name that lent itself well to the nickname Bill. It's old-fashioned - as are Ron(ald), Percy and Ginny, but a perfectly standard short form amongst the older generation. FWIW, and IMHO only, of course, William and Harry are names that have sprung back into popularity following (or at least around the same time as) the births of the princes. Henry is not very amongst young people, except possibly in the upper classes. There is a middle class vogue for very traditional boys names at present (my children's school is full of Williams, Jacks, Harrys, Edwards, Georges) and also OT names - Bens, Sams, etc. Harry *wasn't* a popular boy's name in 1980, as far as I know. It *is* a traditional shortening of Henry, however ("Cry 'God for Harry! England and St George' ") And I've come across at least three Wills amongst my childrens' contemporaries. ~Eloise From StarHermione86 at cs.com Tue Jan 28 17:53:33 2003 From: StarHermione86 at cs.com (StarHermione86 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 12:53:33 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Oops! Dumbledore did it again! Message-ID: <12b.2156d723.2b681d9d@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50894 Sorry for the pun in the title, but does anyone else finds Harry's unwavering belief in Dumbledore's powers and protection to be a little ironic? Just looking back through the books it becomes clear to me how many times Dumbledore didn't know what was going on and didn't have the ability to protect Harry. Just a few examples spring to mind right now: PS/SS - --Dumbledore hires a teacher with Voldemort on the back of his head! Voldemort had been in his school the entire year and Dumbledore didn't have the slightest clue. GoF- -- Dumbledore appears to be a better judge of teachers by now. At least by this time he only hires an agent of Voldemort and not Voldemort himself. --He allows the Goblet of Fire, which is shown to be his own special responsibility, to be tampered with and a younger student to be entered. --He allows the Triwizard cup to be turned into a portkey without his knowledge and two students to be transported by it. Now don't get me wrong, I do think Dumbledore is a figure to be respected and trusted. He is, though, admired so much that people miss his shortcomings and his failures. Harry doesn't seem to realize that Dumbledore is far from perfect and he has been in danger many times from error and carelessness on Dumbledore's part. Sheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From anakinbester at hotmail.com Tue Jan 28 18:34:33 2003 From: anakinbester at hotmail.com (anakinbester ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 18:34:33 -0000 Subject: Yellow Rat Spell - Maybe it really did work In-Reply-To: <195.14a38b1e.2b67017d@cs.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50895 Sheryl wrote: > > I was thinking along the lines of maybe it WOULD work on an actual rat. We > find out, however, that scabbers is an animagus. That could make a difference > in whether or not a spell would work. > I agree with that honestly. Someone mentioned that Ron would likely know if ryhming spells didn't exist at all. So perhaps it would have worked on a real rat, or perhaps Ron simply couldn't preform the spell. There are a few clues that Scabbers is more than he seems in the books, especially PoA, and I'd be more than willing to think of it has another subtle Scabbers clue (then again, it could just be what it looks like. I comment on the relationship of Fred George and Ron, the twin's prankster nature, and Ron's gulibility) Anyway: Other Scabbers Clues First off. He's too old. Even before they point it out, he's too old. (However I'm working on the assumption that Percy owned him at least two years before Ron, because Ron says he's been in the family ages) If Percy got him two year prior to giving him to Ron, that would make Scabber three by the end of PS. That'd be his last year of life. But he's still alive two year later in PoA. JKR does a good fient, making him look sick and dying in PoA. But if you think about it, he's still too old to be a non-magical rat. He should have been dead _before_ PoA. So you kinda wonder why is he just now dying. *L* Also, ok, I know some people can do this with their pet rats, but Ron doesn't seem to be the best animal trainer and yet Scabbers seems to be cageless. There is never any mention of him except free ranging outside. Not even my rats are good enough to be left unsupervised while I'm at class or asleep. (I read of one person who did sleep with her rats, so I gues it could be done) but you'll notice even when Harry came back fromthe Mirror, Scabbers wasn't put away. He was loose. I know that not mentioning doesn't mean there'snot a cage (And there is one in the movie) but Scabbers does appear better behaved and less likely to run off than any rat I've heard of, save thos eowned by professional trainers/rat breeders. In PoA, things really start getting fun. At one oint, Scabbers shivers in Ron's pocket, and you think it's because of Crookshanks, but if you read Harry's last line, he's talking about not being able to speak to his parent's thanks to Black (I'd get the exact quote and page, but I'm at school and bookless) There are a couple of other passages like that in there. I would like to say though, that Peter's not overly lazy for a male rat. Unless my rat (Peter, named partially for his amazing atheletic ability actually) is also an animagi. If left to his own devices he would do nothing but sleep in his house all day, emerging only to eat, and feigning activity only when I offer him M&M's, or he thinks I might do so. So, I think the laziness Scabbers shows was actually pretty normal from my own oberservations. Rats have personalities, and some are lazier than others. Finally, I really don't think Peter intended Harry any harm. People have spoken about what a coward he is, and I agree. Therfore, I don't think he would have killed Harry, even if Voldemort had risen without him. He has the perfect hiding spot! He would enver have to be a DeathEater again if he just kept low. It was pure chance that Black found him. I just don't see Peter wanting to rejoin Voldemort while he still had the option of living as a rat (Really, if you were an utter coward, and you had to choose, which sounds better to you. Heck, living like a rat sounds better than college to me right now, let alone being in the constant presence of a crazy sadistic loon) It was mentioned that Peter acted like a rat when cournered. He did something desperate to remain free. Yup that is pretty rat like (but not necessarily bad! Sometimes desperate things are good. Well he got cournered again in PoA. So what did he do? Something desperate. I thik it was those circumstances alone, that caused him to return to Voldemort. I don't think he did it to get into the Dark Lord's good graces. (And if those are his good graces, and hate to see his bad graces) So I don't think Peter was a threat to Harry as a rat, even if he'd never been found out, by virtue of Peter's own nature as guesed at by the fact that his animagus form is a rat, and his own actions in GoF. -Ani PS: please forgive all spelling errors. There is no spell check on this stupid compter >_< I did read through it for typos I could catch though. Also, I'm sorry I didn't directly quote more people, but I can't open more than one browser. If I do, the one I'm currently on closes. *sigh* So I couldn't copy and paste (are actually ctrl C and ctrl V, since you can't right click here either) From hp at plum.cream.org Tue Jan 28 18:35:49 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 18:35:49 -0000 Subject: Bill (was: Cauldrons and Bill Weasley) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50896 eloise herisson wrote: > And I've come across at least three Wills amongst my childrens' > contemporaries. Could I remark that probably two generations separate your kids' contemporaries from Bill Weasley? :-) -- GulPlum AKA Richard who would like to repeat the disclaimer he has just given on the movie list (with increasing difficulty). :-) From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 18:43:01 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 18:43:01 -0000 Subject: Harry Will Be Accused and Locked up in Azkaban/ His Escape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50897 Kathleen:"Good point. I guess I should more specifically say that Lucius Malfoy will accuse Harry of being in league with Voldemort. He knows Harry has faced him because he saw the pierced diary and had it returned to him by Harry." My objection to this theory is that I think the Death Eater strategy will be to keep the wizard world asleep and complacent as long as possible. They can count on the unwitting cooperation of the Minister of Magic; Fudge wants everything to be hunky-dory. I suggest that Lucius is going to say "there is no Dark Lord any more, thank goodness," and accuse Harry of killing Cedric himself to win the Cup. He might trump up some other charge, but I believe the Death Eaters don't want the wizard world to believe Voldemort is back. Kathleen:"Lucius NEEDS to discredit Harry, namely because Harry has witnessed his loyalty to Lord Voldemort as a Death Eater. It is either accuse or be accused. Lucius may even play the "concerned parent" card and fear that his precious Draco, (hexed by Harry and Co. on the train) may be the next victim." Agreed. The Death Eaters need to neutralize their two main enemies, Prof. Dumbledore and Harry, and deprive them of their main base, Hogwarts. But again, they don't want the wizarding public to wake up to Voldemort's presence, because they're likely to demand action from Fudge or start listening to Dumbledore. So they have to find alternatives: ** accuse Harry of killing Cedric himself so that he could win the Triwizard Cup himself, which fits in with the "glory-hunter" image Draco's been painting with Rita's help. Harry's wand gets "lost," or they accuse him of using a different one, or phony up the evidence some other way. ** portray Harry as a nutter, again playing up on the stories Rita has done, and try to get him iced in St. Mungo's. ** Play up the Draco incident on the train to a case of attempted murder that will land Harry in Azkaban, or at least get him expelled and open to attack outside Hogwarts. ** concoct a story that Dumbledore and Harry are conspiring to make Dumbledore the next Dark Lord, which might neutralize both of them. Kathleen:"Yes. Fudge's cooperation in this is critical to the success of the trial against Harry. Fudge will desperately want to be able to hold his head up to the WW once more. What better way to do this than to give the appearance of "having his man" when he locks up Harry?" Yes!! But a critical part of this for Fudge is to come up with an alternative to Voldemort being alive again, so that makes the alternatives more likely. As far as Fudge wanting to restore his damaged image, a lot of the stuff he's done (or not done) is still hidden from the wizard public. I agree with you that Harry is likely to end up in Azkaban, although St. Mungo's is an outside possibility. The main difference is that I think Lucius and the Death Eaters will keep Voldemort out of it, which suits Fudge very well. They need time for Voldemort to gather allies and build his strength, and framing Harry and Dumbledore helps them do that. Jim Ferer From hp at plum.cream.org Tue Jan 28 18:52:58 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 18:52:58 -0000 Subject: Class, Was The wizarding world and empire (for Pip) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50898 Pen Robinson wrote: > I think you are wrong about that. Arthur Weasley is patently a 'white > collar worker', and it seems to me pretty clear that he is fairly > senior in the Ministry. That defines him as middle class, whether > he has money or not. I'm not sure when in UK terminology, having a non working-class job defined one as middle class. I mean, who would actually consider our own esteemed Deputy PM John "Two Jags" Prescott" as Middle Class? :-) That Arthur Weasley has a determinedly middle-class job does not make him middle class. Actually, as per an earlier discussion on class in the Potterverse, I wonder what use the wizarding world has for a true "working class", considering the use of magic to perform menial tasks. Personally, I consider GOF's reference to the person who washes the glasses at the Leaky Cauldon an anachronism - after all, we have already encountered self-scouring charms and (is it only in the movie? - I can't currently locate my copy of CoS - should I use the phrase?) magical dishwashers? -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who would like to repeat the disclaimer in his pervious message, which has since got worse. :-) From nithya_rachel at hotmail.com Tue Jan 28 19:09:01 2003 From: nithya_rachel at hotmail.com (errolowl ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 19:09:01 -0000 Subject: Peter and the easy way (was: Yellow Rat Spell - Maybe it really did work) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50899 I wrote: Peter's stand against Sirius was not one of bravery ? it was the typical rat mentality of resorting to desperate measures when backed into a corner. A Rat has an excellent sense of self preservation ? it will run to escape most things ? but a cornered rat is a different proposition. If JKR has brought out anything, it is that Peter values his own skin too much. Finwitch: >>Well, he IS the rat all right... survivor. Yellow does stand out most clearly against black background but is nearly _invisible_ against white. So I can see how the yellow Pettigrew remained so unnoticed amongst those who're loyal to _Albus_... Then this yellow thing stands out when Mr _Black_ reveals him;<< Me: LOL!!! I never saw that in Technicolor before! ..but isn't Sirius loyal to Albus as well? That might have made a murky grey background Finwitch again: >>Yes, well - Scabbers/Peter Pettigrew/ Wormtail was a yellow one, all right -- but as I see yellow as a colour that somethimes stands for gold (heraldics- yellow in flag, gold in the crest), as colour of of spring, fertility, easter, rebirth (as the first spring flowers are yellow and we tend to dye eggs yellow on easter)-- spring-as in *running* - is that where the yellow/coward-thing mentioned comes from?<< Jazmyn: >>Peter is not lacking in bravery. Takes a lot of guts to cut off your own arm, you know. Or to milk venom from a giant serpent or tend to Lord Voldemort. He could have in fact. just left the contry and wentinto hiding..<< Torsten: >>No, he's desperate and incapable of taking care of things himself. He needs someone strong to protect him and to tell him what to do. And his 'bravery' is born out of desperation, too. Cutting off his own arm is still better than facing what LV would do to him if he refused to do it. So it's not real, hero-type bravery, it essentially is just the opposite, cowardice. He's too afraid of one thing, so he faces the other thing, always taking the easier route.<< Me again: Ah, I like Torsten's last sentence there! No one else in the series so far has been this starkly presented with the choice between what is right and what is easy. Peter the rat comes across as cowardly, picking the easy route, doing anything to save his skin. So far he has never exhibited any bravery. But maybe, just maybe, he's not as cowardly as he thinks he is either. As Jazmyn pointed out, cutting off your arm or milking a serpent *do* require some inner steel ? never mind that it was brought on by desperation. Deep down, Peter has a lousy sense of what he can do. He never tries the hard/ right way (feelings of inadequacy as compared to the other Marauders?), opting for the easy as the only option open to him. "Sirius, Sirius, what could I have done? The Dark Lord..you have no idea..he has weapons you can't imagine..I was scared, Sirius, I was never brave like you and Remus and James. I never meant it to happen.." (PoA, US 374) Maybe under the right light, yellow will turn to gold. Maybe Harry, who exercises his Bravery at every opportunity can show him better. This might indeed end up like the Frodo-Smeagol relationship. And as I tend to think that all the Marauders were in Griffyndor, I'm sure the sorting hat saw *something* in Peter. I know Peter's character has been discussed to death..but I can't find any of the posts ? would those with total recall please help me out here? Errol. From megalynn44 at hotmail.com Tue Jan 28 19:14:05 2003 From: megalynn44 at hotmail.com (Megalynn S.) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 14:14:05 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Will Be Accused and Locked up in Azkaban/ His Escape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50900 >From: "Jim Ferer ** accuse Harry of killing Cedric himself so that he could win the Triwizard Cup himself, which fits in with the "glory-hunter" image Draco's been painting with Rita's help. Harry's wand gets "lost," or they accuse him of using a different one, or phony up the evidence some other way. I have to disagree with this, it's just too easy. It is plain to see Cedric was killed by Avada Kedavra and as fake Moody said "Avada Kedavra's a curse that needs a powerful bit of magic behind it- you could all get your wands out now and point them at me and say the words, and I doubt I'd get so much as a nosebleed." True this guy is fake, but he IS a deatheater and knows about the unforgivable curses. Of course this is not to say that good wizards can'tget carried away with suspicion. I think chapter 9 of GOF (the Dark Mark) is the best reference to the kind of irrational fear that even the thought of Voldemort can produce among the wizards that have been through this before. I believe it's a good bit of foreshadowing. That said, I still think it would be a very tough sell for anyone saying Harry killed Cedric. Megalynn _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From manawydan at ntlworld.com Tue Jan 28 18:23:25 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 18:23:25 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Young Tommy Riddle References: <1043706307.2941.28097.m15@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001101c2c6fa$58f6fb20$5f4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 50901 Annemehr: > tell us more eventually. Marvolo himself I believe to have been dead > by then since we have heard nothing of Voldemort hating his "filthy > Wizard grandfather" who, if he were alive, would also have had to have > abandoned TMR. Although we think of Voldemort having a major grudge against muggles, it's quite likely he has a large chip on his shoulder about wizards too. Probably, given the likely grim circumstances of being raised in a north country workhouse or similar establishment, with good reason. He was obviously a very damaged child - and I can't help but feel a certain sympathy. > In a similar vein, in the Muggle world, I'm sure an intelligent boy > like Riddle would find ways of investigating his surname (and don't > forget, he'd always been able to "charm the people [he] needed" to > help tease information out of people). Imagine his shock and fury to > find that the father who abandoned him was alive, well, and very rich! Having established his place of origin, it probably wouldn't have been difficult to get the gossip. Depending of course on how close to his village of origin he was brought up, it could well be that he had knowledge of the gossip before he went to Hogwarts (though if the muggle authorities knew who his father was, then why was he taken into the orphanage in the first place?) Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 18:39:21 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 18:39:21 -0000 Subject: Oops! Dumbledore did it again! In-Reply-To: <12b.2156d723.2b681d9d@cs.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50902 Sheryl wrote: PS/SS - --Dumbledore hires a teacher with Voldemort on the back of his head! Voldemort had been in his school the entire year and Dumbledore didn't have the slightest clue. GoF- -- Dumbledore appears to be a better judge of teachers by now. At least by this time he only hires an agent of Voldemort and not Voldemort himself. --He allows the Goblet of Fire, which is shown to be his own special responsibility, to be tampered with and a younger student to be entered. --He allows the Triwizard cup to be turned into a portkey without his knowledge and two students to be transported by it. I reply: In GoF, he didn't only "hire" an agent of Voldemort in disguise, he actually FELL for a fake version of someone whom, we can gather from the scenes in the Pensieve, is actually a trusted friend of his. Pretty shoddy powers of detection, Albus. And don't forget that in: CoS- --Dumbledore is unable to locate the Basilisk and halt the attacks. --Dumbledore hires someone who is an obvious fraud (and it seems like every student and every teacher BUT him seem to realize this) for the very important DADA position. PoA- --Dumbledore is unable to successfully safeguard Hogwarts from Sirius Black, who is able to get onto the grounds in disguise... repeatedly. --(we learn that) Dumbledore's admittance of a werewolf student nearly results in Lupin attacking a fellow student. --(we learn that) despite the fact that Lupin nearly attacked Snape, Lupin is *still* allowed to remain at the school. --(we learn that) 3 students were able to become animagi under his very NOSE without him realizing it. --Dumbledore's hiring of a werewolf professor nearly results in Lupin attacking students. --Dumbledore's hiring of Hagrid as the Care of Magical Creatures instructor results in Buckbeak attacking Malfoy. Okay, sure, I know, Malfoy *did* provoke Beaky, but *still,* it's not very smart to start out with such a dangerous creature, right? GoF- --Dumbledore is unable to stop Rita Skeeter from infiltrating the Hogwarts grounds. --Dumbledore begins tampering with the affairs of the MoM (which is why Bill is sent, swiftly and secretly to talk to his father, with a warning that Fudge should not find out.) Sheryl wrote: Now don't get me wrong, I do think Dumbledore is a figure to be respected and trusted. He is, though, admired so much that people miss his shortcomings and his failures. Harry doesn't seem to realize that Dumbledore is far from perfect and he has been in danger many times from error and carelessness on Dumbledore's part. I reply: I agree - I think that Dumbledore is to be admired for his skill as a wizard, and I think that most, if not all of the denizens of the WW respect, and some even fear him for his abilities. But I think that Dumbledore perhaps is not such a great administrator (at least, when compared with someone like, say, McGonagall) for a school. If you think about it, from a certain standpoint, Dumbledore is really quite a loose cannon - I mean, he hires giants, he hires werewolves, he advises contacting the giants, he advises removing the dementors from Azkaban, he seems to openly favor Harry and his friends (now, we know that Harry and his friends act valiantly, but to an outsider... not so clear), he's consorting with a known criminal (*we* know that Sirius is innocent, but the WW doesn't... if you think about it, it's quite unorthodox), he helped Buckbeak to escape, actually defying the MoM, and not only that, but he encouraged *students* to defy the MoM by helping Buckbeak AND Sirius to escape. He also (knowing that parents probably wouldn't like this) announces to everyone at the final banquet of the year that it was Voldemort who killed Cedric. I think that what JKR wants us to see in Dumbledore is someone who is the very model of tolerance and acceptance of people and their many differences - giants, werewolves, mudbloods and muggles - and that all should be treated with compassion. And I think that we all do see all of that. He's honorable, he's fair, and he's kind. *We* know this, as readers who are (mostly) aware of the circumstances. But isn't that her brilliance? *We* see all of that, but the rest of the WW can't/won't see it. And no doubt about it, he does have supporters in the WW, but he also has his share of detractors ala Malfoys, who believe that "Dumbledore's the worst thing to ever happen to this school." And I think that this is going to get Dumbledore into some serious political trouble in OotP. I'm not sure how, just yet, but I'm leaning towards him getting sacked as Headmaster. Minimum. -Tom From manawydan at ntlworld.com Tue Jan 28 18:51:43 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 18:51:43 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] WW and empire References: <1043743302.1282.47913.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001b01c2c6fe$4daef660$5f4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 50903 Ebony: >completely there.) If there was no empire in the history of JKR's >wizarding world, then why are they being educated in Britain? >I'm still waiting here. :-D Where are the historians? I'm a >literary scholar, and I know there are people far more versed in >British imperial history here. The question would be for me whether we have anything to suggest that wizard children would be educated other than in their country of birth. It's conceivable, but to me it seems speculative. I'm still not convinced that any of the Hogwarts students are anything other than born in the British Isles. >Hmm. I would think that JKR wouldn't think that the use of >traditional names as being exotic... why not Anglicized first names, >and African last names? The fact that canon has a Parvati and Padma >Patil, as well as a Cho Chang, tells me that this author doesn't have >a problem using ethnic and non-Anglicized names. People in the UK of Asian origin tend to have Asian names, people of West Indian origin tend to have European names. People of West African origin would be the most likely to have African names, but are relatively few in the UK... >the legacy of empire. Consider the continued primacy of Britain in >this wizarding world. Consider the wizarding world orientation that >GoF gives us. Consider the presentation of the indigenous Africans >that were mentioned at the QWC. On this one I will happily give way (though I would challenge your use of the word "Britain", which is certainly considered to be racist by many people in Wales and Scotland). Consider the question of language in the books. It's made clear that English is the dominant language - people of other nationalities or species are expected to speak it, while an English wizard who has language skills (like Barty Crouch) is represented as quite remarkable. Where (given the 25% rule) does that come from, then? >Having said that, it is fun for me to dissect the books in this way. >I do notice little things that some people definitely wouldn't notice >because you just wouldn't think to notice such things... which is >fine. It is not a bad thing, people. It underscores the power of the books that it's so interesting to do this. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From dembedei at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 19:06:07 2003 From: dembedei at yahoo.com (A.J. ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 19:06:07 -0000 Subject: Yellow Rat Spell - Maybe it really did work In-Reply-To: <3E35EC48.9E2096E6@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50904 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > > Mmmm... I'd say it failed because the rat was not stupid or indeed fat. > Not really a rat either. > Jazmyn Oh certainly, I thought of that spell immediately when Peter morphed. "Is that a real spell?" The real question should be, "Is that a real rat?" ! (Sorry, cannot check the dialogue-- book in storage) A.J. From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 19:19:04 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 19:19:04 -0000 Subject: Harry Will Be Accused and Locked up in Azkaban/ His Escape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50905 Kathleen writes: I think Lucius, with the grief stricken/egotistical Amos Diggory's help, could devise a believable motive. I could see a scene where Cho Chang, at the prompting of Amos Diggory, takes the stand. "Yes, *sob*, *sob*, Harry might have been jealous of Cedric. Yes,*sob*, he asked me to the Yule Ball. Yes, Cedric did beat him to the snitch during that Quidditch match his third year", (etc). Lucius NEEDS to discredit Harry, namely because Harry has witnessed his loyalty to Lord Voldemort as a Death Eater. It is either accuse or be accused. Lucius may even play the "concerned parent" card and fear that his precious Draco, (hexed by Harry and Co. on the train) may be the next victim. I reply: Ooooh, that's such a good idea. I hadn't considered that Lucius would try something like that. And you're right and thorough. Especially the stuff about Diggory and about Cho Chang. But, still, I'm not sure I agree. Already, we know that Fudge doesn't believe Harry. Lucius is an *exonerated* Death Eater. It could easily be played off that Harry's lost it, or that he's trying to get back at Lucius for anything related to Draco and/or the Weasley family. However, judging by the way Fudge receives the information in the infirmary, and judging by the fact that B.Crouch, Jr. is now soulless and unable to testify, I'm not sure that Lucius will have to worry too much. They can portray Harry as nuts, but Azkaban? Highly doubtful. AND, at the beginning of PoA, when Harry meets Fudge in the Leaky Cauldron, doesn't Fudge actually *laugh* at the notion of Harry going to Azkaban? Kathleen writes: Harry escapes [Azkaban] the same way Sirius does! By becoming an Animagus! I reply: I'm not crystal on this, but I thought it took years to perfect the animagical ability. Does someone have PoA handy to verify the canon on this? Jim writes: The Death Eaters need to neutralize their two main enemies, Prof. Dumbledore and Harry, and deprive them of their main base, Hogwarts. But again, they don't want the wizarding public to wake up to Voldemort's presence, because they're likely to demand action from Fudge or start listening to Dumbledore. So they have to find alternatives: ** accuse Harry of killing Cedric himself so that he could win the Triwizard Cup himself, which fits in with the "glory-hunter" image ** portray Harry as a nutter ** Play up the Draco incident on the train ** concoct a story that Dumbledore and Harry are conspiring to make Dumbledore the next Dark Lord I reply: Some good thoughts on how this might come about. After all, you're *all* right - the Death Eaters are going to have to neutralize both Harry and Dumbledore... somehow. And knowing JKR, in order to beef up the tension, they're going to have to at least partially succeed. But, all the same, I'm just not sure that Azkaban is the way to do it. Remember, Harry is a heroic icon to most of the WW. It seems unlikely, no matter how crazy he seems, that they'll agree to lock the child hero in Azkaban. St. Mungo's? Now there's an interesting possibility - especially if the Longbottoms are still there. And it's more acceptable to put a kid in St. Mungo's than it is to put him in Azkaban. And then again, if he did go to Azkaban, it'd be interesting to see what happens when/if Voldemort calls on them as his natural allies. -Tom From ArtsyLynda at aol.com Tue Jan 28 14:15:04 2003 From: ArtsyLynda at aol.com (ArtsyLynda at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 09:15:04 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] what pet would you want? Message-ID: <199.14adb659.2b67ea68@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50906 I'm a horseperson, so obviously, a pegasus (so much more comfortable to ride than a broom!) -- but for a house pet, hmmm. An owl or a cat -- seems like the owls are the most practical in the wizarding world, though. Certainly not a rat or a toad!! Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ggershman77 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 16:54:15 2003 From: ggershman77 at yahoo.com (ggershman77 ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 16:54:15 -0000 Subject: Vernon's Drill Co; (was Dursley's bribed?, charmed? or afraid?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50907 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall " wrote: > > Tanya wrote: > Dagnabbits! I just might have to respectfully agree > with you here, because I've just come across this > passage (PoA/2) that reads: > "...Uncle Vernon bored them all with a long talk > about Grunnings, his drill-making company..." > *respectful grumbling* I concede. I think the point of him owning or working for a drill company is to show his association with modern technology, and its symbols of power. Uncle Vernon is an industrialist business man. His son Dudley is a technophile. This is in contradistinction to the Wizarding World, which does not know of modern technology. Greg http://hpprogs.blogspot.com/ From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 20:02:52 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002 ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 20:02:52 -0000 Subject: Oops! Dumbledore did it again! with the addition of Bees In-Reply-To: <12b.2156d723.2b681d9d@cs.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50908 Sheryl (StarHermione86) wrote: > does anyone else finds Harry's unwavering belief in Dumbledore's > powers and protection to be a little ironic? PS/SS - > --Dumbledore hires a teacher with Voldemort on the back of his > head! Voldemort had been in his school the entire year and > Dumbledore didn't have the slightest clue. Now me: Not to mention Lockhart... But, in Dumbledore's defense, Voldemort was not in the back of Quirrell's head when he hired Quirrell. Voldemort took possession of Quirrell later. I'm not so sure Dumbledore didn't know that Voldemort was around in PS/SS. I think the extent to which the Stone was protected is an indication that Dumbledore thought there was a threat present. And Snape was on top of Quirrell, so Quirrell was probably identified as a potential threat. Sheryl again: > GoF- Dumbledore appears to be a better judge of teachers by now. At > least by this time he only hires an agent of Voldemort and not > Voldemort himself. He allows the Goblet of Fire, which is shown to > be his own special responsibility, to be tampered with and a > younger student to be entered. He allows the Triwizard cup to be > turned into a portkey without his knowledge and two students to be > transported by it. Me again: Is there anyone who caught on during their first reading of GoF that Barty Crouch Jr. was posing as Mad-Eye Moody? Crouch Jr. was an incredibly effective imposter. I can't blame Dumbledore for not figuring it out, especially since Crouch Jr. was presumed to be dead. And since the tampering of the Goblet and the turning of the Cup into a portkey were as a result of Crouch Jr.'s successful impersonation, it's hard to find fault with Dumbledore for these events as well. On a slightly different, but still related, topic, we've had discussions about the meaning of Dumbledore's name, since Dumbledore is an old English word meaning "bumblebee." JKR has said that Elizabeth Goudge's The Little White Horse was one of her favorite childhood books, and, after reading it, I liked it so much I decided to read Goudge's Linnets and Valerians. Well, in Linnets and Valerians, there are bees that provide protection and guidance to the characters in the books. I'm wondering if that could have been JKR's inspiration to give Dumbledore a name that means "bee." There are also mandrakes and a character named Tom Biddle in Linnets and Valerians, but I'll discuss those another time! ~Phyllis From jodel at aol.com Tue Jan 28 20:35:10 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:35:10 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 2468 Message-ID: <1c6.4300cff.2b68437e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50909 Tom proposes; >>I'm leaning now towards something like this: Riddle is contacted by Grindelwald or one of his agents at Hogwarts while he's still at school, and he disappears after school in order to seek out the Dark Lord and formally begin training under him. Some of that ensues, until Dumbledore, who already suspected Riddle of foul play re: Hagrid, realizes what is going on, and goes off to hunt down Grindelwald. << Let's fine tune this and give it some background shading. This may be completely out in left field, but we've got another five months before/if we get any new data, and there isn't anything in human nature to say that it's automatically *wrong*... Along about the opening of the 20th century there is a group of wizards who are willing to use the Dark Arts to get what they want. Given that the ramifications of prejudice pereate the series we'll suppose that these are a cadre of die-hard pureblood fanatics who have already lost the battle, but refuse to be beaten. (Indeed, every time I try to postulate a workable history of the WW in seclusion I end up coming to the conclusion that the 19th century was the age of the Mudblood. The fact that, by those notes of Rowlings, the current wizarding world is about 25% Muggle-born and 50% of mixed ancestry, the population numbers must have been desparately inadequate by the time they started searching for magical births outside the secluded WW in order to offset natural attrition. And that charmed quill just strikes me as a basically 19th century piece of technology.) They can see that their pureblood distinction is being eaten away and that ultimately no wizard will be free of Muggle "contamination" and they just cannot lie down and accept it. Some of these wizards probably *are* old enough to remember when the WW was primarily composed of purebloods and are drowning in Nostalgia for their golden youth. And they invoke (and quite possibly distort) the memory of Salazar Slytherin and his anti-Muggle-born sentiments [for which, 900 years earlier, he may have had strong, rational, compelling reasons] as their inspiration. Quite a few (although probably not all) of these old geezers were probably Slytherins in their school days and, well, get a lot of the old house boys together and somebody is bound to drag out the old moldy fig of the Chamber of Secrets and Slytherin's heir. And there is still one known decendent of Salazar Slytherin left alive at the time. A witch, unfortunately. And one who left for the Muggle world after leaving school. I suspect that these factors were enough to keep the geezer brigade from searching her out in favor of trying to trace some more likely poster child for their movement. By the time it is clear that there is no other heir, it is too late. The witch is dead, and her son is lost in some Muggle orphanage (which characteristically changed the names of the children entrusted to them at that point of time. Particulary the names of infants). Somebody is high enough placed to get a look at the quill's list. The boy is one Tom (Thomas?) Marvolo Riddle. born in late '26 or early '27, and since he's on the list will be getting a Hogwarts letter for the fall term of '38. It's likely that it took them several years before they were resigned to tracing his mother (and him), or you would have expected them to send some plausible couple to "adopt" him out of the Muggle institution, wouldn't you? In any case, they didn't. Instead they either set one of their group in place, or won over a member of Hogwarts' staff to their cause and waited for young Tom to show up at school. And when he did, they pounced. We are talking about a lone child whose early upbringing was probably no kinder than Harry Potter's, even if it might have held less personal hostility on the part of his caretakers (although if Tom had anything like the kind and number of magical breakthroughs that plagued Harry, the hostility would have developed) and possibly one that was far colder. Where Harry had to fend with deliberate malice on the part of the Dursleys, Tom would more likely have been dealt with by the cool hand of indiference and institutionalized dehumanization. (And, as I've pointed out in an earlier post, this was a child who did *not* get the advantage of an early grounding of 15 months as a loved, wanted child.) What is more, this was a child who chose "greatness" and was sorted into Slytherin. Into Slytherin, with all the "advantages" of mixed blood, dire poverty and a Muggle upbringing. I really don't think that the qualities that are valued in Slytherin House have changed markedly since Riddle's day. And now, suddenly, there is an adult who has taken an interest in him! Who seems to *like* him! Somebody who knew his *family*! Somebody who feeds him the story of his noble, tragic mother and her perfidious Muggle husband. Somebody who can indoctrinate him in the traditions of his proud Slytherin lineage. Someone who can coach him, and teach him, and guide his choices. So long as he performs well. And he does. Oh, he does. His treatment at the hands of Muggles has given him no defenses. When it turns out that he is a parslemouth as well, it is read as a sign and a portent. He searches for Slytherin's sceret chamber as a prize to "prove" himself to his mentor (although he, most interestingly, does not share the information with him once he finds it. Had he already begun to form his own goals separate from those of his patrons? It seems very likely). Clearly Dumbledore was not the only person at Hogwarts to doubt Hagrid's part in the death of young Myrtle. But neither of the others were talking. Now something else that we don't know was whether Dumbledore was also serving as head of Gryffandor House at the time of Hagrid's expulsion. If this is the case, it stands to reason that he would have *known* Hagrid. Would have known him very well, in fact, since you can just tell that Hagrid is the kind of student who is always in trouble of some kind or other. And where Dumbledore had simply been somewhat cooler than the average instructor toward Riddle prior to Hagrid's expulsion (due to a lack of sympathy with the staff member who had taken the boy up, perhaps? Seems likely. May in fact have regarded the mentor as a bad influence and held some reservations regarding Tom because of it) afterwards he took a more personal interest in the boy, himself. Enough so that we can conclude that Dumbledore, who was certainly on Hogwarts staff in the sprig of '43, when the Chamber was opened, remained on staff there at least until the end of the spring term of '45 merely by the fact that the Chamber remained closed due to the watch that Dumbledore kept on Riddle. Now where I depart from your theory is that I think the incident which set Dumbledore on the track was the masacre of the Riddle family in the summer of '45. Probably only a week or so after school let out. Dumbledore may or may not have been reading Muggle newspapers that early in his career, but it stands to reason that three AKs in a Muggle village would have alerted some Ministry department. That would certainly have spurred an investigation of some sort, even if only to cover up the use of magic. Frank Bryce's sighting of a pale, dark-haired teenage boy about the place the night of the deaths would have led investigating Aurors back to Hogwarts where the name Riddle would have made a solid connection. (This was the point of and the real reason for Tom's long dissapearance , imho. Murdering Muggles is somewhat frowned on, after all.) Dumbledore, however, doesn't really ascribe to the "bad seed" theory of human behavior. He never much cared for Riddle's mentor and his worldview, and started following Riddle's backtrail. Somewhere, he came across the code name "Grindlewald" and that may have connected with something already under investigation in the Ministry. Dumbledore's information helped them to crack the case, and it was Albus, who knew the man personally (possibly not the same wizard as Tom's mentor, but part of the same group) who was able to get close enough to come to grips with him and, when he put up a fight, to defeat him. Since it was not "Grindlewald" who had killed the Riddle family, it was probably some other activity which he was prosecuted for. Since the only thing we know of him is that he was a Dark Wizard, most probably it was something to do with his activities in the Dark Arts. Now, I do not recall any statement in canon where it is outright said that the Dark Arts are illegal in Britian. Some curses are unforgivable (and we do not even know that those are Dark curses, for that matter) some potions, and other substances, are highly controlled. But that the Dark Arts are *illegal* is assumed, but never stated, IIRC. My own suspcions on that subject are that they are *not* illegal, just closely regulated. (The fact that they are openly taught at Durmstrang suggests that they are regarded to be an established and formally recognized branch of wizardry.) I suspect that in Britian, one may need a liscence to practice them, there may be a Ministry board of regulations and regular inspections, and all sorts of other administrivia applied to the use of them, but that they are not in themselves unlawful. These regulations are necessary because this is a particularly dangerous branch of magic and is as dangerous to the caster as to its subjects. (And the majority of Dark wizards eventually "lose it" and become a hazard to their families and their neighbors unless strong precautions are taken and *never* relaxed.) We do not know whether the modern day view of the matter was already in place as early as the mid 1940s but some degree of legislation is bound to have been in place. I am of the oppinion that certain respected Dark Arts consultants are on retainer with the Ministry and called upon when their expertice is needed to unravel a problem. I also suspect that some members of the Malfoy family have always served the Ministry in this function. As to Grindlewald; he was sent to Azkaban, and as usually happens went barking mad there and probably either died before his term was finished, or was transfered to St. Mungos upon its completion. Certainly Grindlewald himself is not an issue any more. As to Grindlewald's geezers; well, it isn't illegal to believe that pureblooded wizards are the best. It isn't illegal to preach that belief on streetcorners, either. Or to indoctrinate schoolboys with the same views. Whatever Grindlewald had planned may not even have gone far enough to have been shared with his "organization". Some of the old boys undoubtedly had done something which got them a stint in Azkaban, or a stiff fine, or a slap on the wrist. Many had broken no law and were merely somewhat embarassed. (I suspect that Fudge's father was one of those.) There wasn't necessarily anything the Ministry could do about them. As far as the Ministry was concerned they had nipped it in the bud, and there was no further danger. I'm sure Dumbledore wasn't entirely convinced. And there was still the small matter of a fugitive paricide who had seemingly dropped off the face of the earth. In fact, Grindlewald's aims may have been very different from Riddle's. We do not know this. And Rowling may never tell us. But it is interesting to spin theories. -JOdel From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 21:00:28 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 21:00:28 -0000 Subject: Harry Will Be Accused and Locked up in Azkaban/ His Escape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50910 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall " wrote: > > Kathleen writes: > Lucius NEEDS to discredit Harry, ... > - - - - - - - - > > Tom Wall (I think): > > ..edited...They can portray Harry as nuts, but Azkaban? > ...edited... > - - - - - - - - - > > Jim writes: > The Death Eaters need to neutralize their two main enemies, > Prof. Dumbledore and Harry, and deprive them of their main base, > Hogwarts. ...edited... So they have to find alternatives: > > ** accuse Harry of killing Cedric himself so that he could win the > Triwizard Cup himself, which fits in with the "glory-hunter" image > > > ** portray Harry as a nutter > > ** Play up the Draco incident on the train > > ** concoct a story that Dumbledore and Harry are conspiring to make > Dumbledore the next Dark Lord > > I reply: (Tom) > ... you're *all* right - the Death Eaters are going to have to > neutralize both Harry and Dumbledore... somehow. > > And then again, if he did go to Azkaban, it'd be interesting to see > what happens when/if Voldemort calls on them as his natural allies. > > -Tom YUMMY! This is a really great topic. First I think the 'neutralize the good guys' is a very likely subplot in the next book. Option 1- They do accuse Harry of assorted misdeeds but the best Lucius can get is Harry commited to St. Mungo's. This is better than Azkaban, because it still allows a lot of the story to occur from Harry's perspective. He may even discover that the Longbottom's are not as 'out of it' as has been assumed. People have speculated that the Longbottoms are being kept in an incoherent state to prevent them from identifying their torturers. So, lots of story possiblities there. Option 2- Please allow me a brief side track into highly compressed FF. Harry is in the courtroom giving testimony in his own defense, no one is buying it, it looks bad for Harry, everyone is convinced he is going to Azkaban for sure. Suddenly, the doors to the courtroom burst open; it's Sirius Black looking hale and hearty. Sirius: You've got the wrong man, it was me all along. I did it all. Harry: NO... NO... yada yada Fudge: Summon the Dementors; perform the Kiss. Harry: NO... No... don't do it. Sirius: It's for the best Harry. The Dementor comes to perform the kiss, Harry jumps from the stand, the bailiff rushes over to restrain him, Harry grabs the bailliffs wand, stuns the bailliff, Rushes over and stands in front of Sirius using his own body to shield him, Harry summons Pertronus, Ron tosses Sirius his wand, Harry and Sirius make a break for it, and live their lives on the run. Still allows the story to be told from Harry's perspective and gives Harry and us a chance to get to know Sirius better, Sirius takes over teaching Harry Defense Against Dark Arts. He's a good teacher; Harry's a good student. Option 3- Harry does go to Azkaban, but went Voldemort comes and frees all the prisoners, he frees Harry without realizing it. Harry takes a wand from a Death Eater, and Harry confront Voldemort once more, and of course defeats him. Still quite a few unresolved detail in this last option, but it has possibilities. Side Note: The Azkaban wandless Petronus. It's possible Harry will under stress cast a Petronus (like a mist) sufficient to allow him to retain control of himself while in Azkaban. We know he can do magic with out a wand, and there have been hints that this ability will be significant at some point in the story. This could be where his ability to control his magic without a wand comes into the story. Just a few thoughts. Sorry, must run now, the fuel pump on my car has died. 30 degrees today, 10 degrees tomorrow. bboy_mn From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 21:54:20 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 21:54:20 -0000 Subject: Harry Will Be Accused and Locked up in Azkaban/ His Escape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50911 Jim Ferer (me) describing Death Eaters' alternatives for bringing down Harry:"** accuse Harry of killing Cedric himself so that he could win the Triwizard Cup himself, which fits in with the "glory-hunter" image Draco's been painting with Rita's help. Harry's wand gets "lost," or they accuse him of using a different one, or phony up the evidence some other way." Megalynn:" have to disagree with this, it's just too easy. It is plain to see Cedric was killed by Avada Kedavra and as fake Moody said "Avada Kedavra's a curse that needs a powerful bit of magic behind it- you could all get your wands out now and point them at me and say the words, and I doubt I'd get so much as a nosebleed." It may be that a wizard can tell if someone was killed by AK, but maybe not. All they know for sure is Cedric's dead. As for Harry knowing AK, how can you prove a wizard doesn't have a certain skill? Harry's learned a lot of hexes, and he's the most talented wizard of his age. Moody can't testify Harry didn't know Avada Kedavra. But the most dangerous point for Harry is that he's facing people who are looking for ways to convict him of something. Like a Muggle prosecutor who ignores or even hides evidence that would exonerate someone, Harry's enemies don't want justice, they want a conviction. But it's just one alternative for bringing Harry down. They may be satisfied with getting Harry expelled and thrown out of Hogwarts, where they hope it's open season on him. Of course, Harry's got a lot of friends who will do everything they can to protect him, including giving their own lives. Jim Ferer From ggershman77 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 21:10:47 2003 From: ggershman77 at yahoo.com (ggershman77 ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 21:10:47 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and Grindelwald (WAS: What year was Voldemort born?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50912 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall " > wrote: > > > > > This is incredible! It seems very likely that > > Grindelwald was a Dark Arts teacher at Hogwarts. > This would fit nicely for those who like to read the HP books as Christian stories. Voldemort==Lucifer, invading the kingdom of Heaven (Hogwarts as heaven, Dumbledore as God, kicking him out, etc). There are clues to Hogwarts being Heaven. When we first enter the great hall in SS/PS, "It was hard to believe there was a ceiling there at all, and that the Great Hall didn't simply open on to the heavens." Dumbledore has many omniscient qualities, for example, he tells Harry (in SS/PS), "I don't need a cloak to become invisible." And many more. It might help to explain the somewhat tarnished track record he has had in the past in spotting threats. He knows about them, but chooses to let others deal with them so that they can learn. I realize this does not work in all cases, but it does in some. For example, Harry says at the end of SS/PS, "I think he sort of wanted to give me a chance. I think he knows more or less everything that goes on here, you know. I reckon he had a pretty good idea we were going to try, and instead of stopping us, he just taught us enough to help. I don't think it was an accident he let me find out how the mirror worked. It's almost like he thought I had the right to face Voldemort if I could." This does not work for GoF and Moody/Crouch, though. Recently, I was speculating if the whole of SS/PS is not in fact a setup by Dumbledore to have Harry come face to face with Voldemort, and to teach him about power and good and evil. In retrospect, I dont find this explanation as compelling as the straight forward explanation. Still, it bears thinking about. Dumbledore definetly orchestrated from the Chapter entitled "The Mirror of Erised" and on. Greg http://hpprogs.blgospot.com/ From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jan 28 22:08:34 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 22:08:34 -0000 Subject: More about the wizarding world and empire... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50913 If Rowling had made Dean's last name Nkrume, it would destroy a parallel with the WW, where Muggle-style last names may indicate Muggle origin (as in Granger) or not (as in Potter). It might also send the message that people *should* have names which indicate their ethnicity, which I guess is the idea. But ethnic separatism is a two-edged sword. I'm sure it's very important to the Malfoys that no Muggle-born bears that name. It could also be that parents who admire Dumbledore's anti-separatist attitudes are also less likely to care whether their families have names that reflect their ethnic identity. Moreover a superficial change in naming conventions would not address the underlying anomaly. If other wizarding cultures were as powerful as the British Empire, how was it that they did not repel the conquerors? If Rowling put it that foreign wizarding cultures were disinterested or actively hostile toward their Muggle counterparts, then they would seem morally inferior to British wizards like Dumbledore. OTOH, if they try to protect their Muggle cousins and cannot, they appear impotent. Rowling could try to write her way around this, but it would be a whopping investment in backstory construction for the sake of what is, after all, a minor character. Perhaps it will be dealt with indirectly if we find out what magical Britain did in defense of its homeland during World War II. For the sake of my own fan fiction, I posited that the wizards had abolished war and were forbidden by the International Wizarding Confederation to take part in any Muggle conflicts whatsoever, on pain of expulsion and embargo. It's a rather unrealistic solution, as befits a fantasy. Ebony: >>"I also think it's significant that the other nonwhite characters that we see being educated at Hogwarts represent nations that England either conquered completely (Ireland, India, etc.) or had some sort of favored nation status with (China--although Hong Kong was under British control for a long time, yet? Don't know the history completely there.) If there was no empire in the history of JKR's wizarding world, then why are they being educated in Britain? Because Hogwarts is the best school in the world? << You're forgetting Karkaroff. He seems to have been educated at Hogwarts, although this is not definite. (Okay, he's white. But so is Seamus.) Bill Weasley was invited as an exchange student to South America, which implies that South Americans can attend Hogwarts. As for Hogwarts being the "best" this is solely Hermione's opinion, and has to do with her educational goals. If you want to study Dark Arts, Durmstrang is better, according to both Sirius and Draco. And it seems that if your aim is to learn the social graces, you should be at Beauxbatons. Pippin From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 22:23:00 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 14:23:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who would you vote for? Message-ID: <20030128222300.22865.qmail@web40512.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50914 Seeing that we have so many poll-like posts right now, and that there's a discussion going on about wizarding elections, I want to ask everyone: If you could vote for Minister of Magic, who would you vote for? You can pick *anyone* - from Ginny Weasley to Gilderoy Lockhart and Lord Voldemort, but if Dumbledore's your first choice, give your second choice as well. I vote for Arthur Weasley! Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From probono at rapidnet.com Tue Jan 28 22:42:42 2003 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 22:42:42 -0000 Subject: Harry Will Be Accused and Locked up in Azkaban/ His Escape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50915 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "happybean98 " wrote: > Good point. I guess I should more specifically say that Lucius > Malfoy will accuse Harry of being in league with Voldemort. He knows > Harry has faced him because he saw the pierced diary and had it > returned to him by Harry. He could easily tell a half truth, > admitting Harry saw Voldemort, but he could twist Harry's motive for > encountering Voldemort alone into an evil one...of helping Voldemort > back into power. No one can testify that this was not the case > because none of Harry's friends were with him during all three of his > encounters except unconscious Ginny. ME: For me, the whole Harry!Azkaban theory hinges on knowing who currently heads the Department of Magical Law Enforcement. We know what happened when Crouch was there, loads of the accused simply disappeared off to Azkaban. If the right guy is in there, Malfoy won't have to *prove* anything! And, on a side note...who will head up the Department of International Magical Cooperation now that Crouch, Sr. is gone? Dumbledore has placed a great deal of importance on unifying the major magical powers. " promote and further magical understanding between different cultures ? such ties are more important than ever before." "We are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided." "Voldemort's gift for spreading discord & enmity is very great. Can fight it by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust." This sounds like a biiiig mistake that the WW made the first time around and that Dumbledore doesn't want to see repeated. Whoever is appointed to this position probably will have a profound impact on the outcome of this upcoming battle/war/thingy, IMHO. Does Dumbledore think this is an important enough role for himself to play? Personally, I fear Fudge's fondness for Lucius. -Tanya From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Tue Jan 28 22:50:15 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 17:50:15 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A theory regarding the "innocence" of Sirius Black an... Message-ID: <4c.1741bb21.2b686327@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50916 In a message dated 1/28/03 9:00:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, christi0469 at hotmail.com writes: > Dumbledore's apparent trust in him at the end of GOF; however, I > think JKR is setting us up to doubt Sirius in the future. That could be the point. We gained trust for Sirius in PoA...maybe it's a leap of faith. Kinda like in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (?) when he has to "leap" across the cavern. There could be another Shrieking Shack type show down. Harry could be shown some new evidence and has to decide whether he still fully trusts Sirius. Make a leap of faith so to speak. Could be a big turning point ... for everyone. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ (Who decided that if *she* were JRK, she would be on lists like these, stirring up trouble by putting out fake ideas! *g*) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tahewitt at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 23:16:42 2003 From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:16:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Oops! Dumbledore did it again! In-Reply-To: <1043791724.4568.20108.m7@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030128231642.17310.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50917 Sheryl wrote: Just looking back through the books it becomes clear to me how many times Dumbledore didn't know what was going on and didn't have the ability to protect Harry. Just a few examples spring to mind right now: PS/SS - --Dumbledore hires a teacher with Voldemort on the back of his head! Voldemort had been in his school the entire year and Dumbledore didn't have the slightest clue... Me: What about the possibility that Dumbledore DID know, that the events in PS/SS, CoS, and maybe the other books, if not set up by Dumbledore, were at least allowed to occur? Why? How about as training sessions for Harry, whom Dumbledore knows will have to face much worse later? This may sound kind of far fetched, but throughout my reading of SS, and to a lesser extent CoS, I had the distinct feeling that Dumbledore knew a great deal of what was going on. I don't have the books in front of me (I'm wasting time at work!) but one example I can think of is the Mirror of Erised in PS/SS. Isn't it possible that it was placed where Dumbledore knew Harry would find it, and learn how it works, before he HAD to use it to get the stone? If so, doesn't that point to Dumbledore training Harry? Tyler __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From eloiseherisson at aol.com Tue Jan 28 23:28:29 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 18:28:29 EST Subject: More about the wizarding world and empire... Message-ID: <27.379e5459.2b686c1d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50918 Tom: >I also think that Zipes has, to some degree, a point >with the racism, too. Can you name one Ministry official >who's from a racial group other than white? Crouch, Bagman, >Fudge - all affluent white males. Can you name one >Hogwarts professor who's from a racial group other >than white? Nope. Neither can I. Not one. Eloise: There, I think you have a point. Although there are a number of Hogwarts professors of whom we know nothing as yet. As for the Ministry, well, that, I'm afraid *is* reflection of RL in Britain today. We do have very few senior civil servants, judges, MPs, etc from ethnic minorities. And I'm sure that the reasons for that in RL are not ones which JKR sees as happening in the WW. Tom: >Along these lines, I thought it was pretty sad when >Cedric got selected by the Goblet of Fire over Angelina. >Sure, sure, it serves a plot device, I know, but didn't >anyone else see the "privileged white kid gets selected >over black girl" thing, or was that just me? Really >too bad - I was rooting for Angelina. And you know, we've >gotta give JKR some credit - Ron and the Gryffindors all >root for her because she's a Gryffindor. Race has nothing >to do with it. Eloise: Well, I don't think we could have had *two* Gryffindor champions, really. And you know, I think JKR is a bit over a barrel here. If it *had* been a black student selected, given the small number we know of at Hogwarts, you can bet there would have been those who would have accused her of tokenism. Tom: >And so, I would submit that all of this does represent >an UNDERLYING premise about the role of race and sex >in a post-colonial world where, for all of our muggle >legal advances, certain basic assumptions really haven't >changed. >As an example, my mom and grandmother assured me most >violently at Christmas that they didn't think that a >woman *could* be president of the U.S. in this >dangerous day and age. Get that: not even "should," but >"could." *scoffs* Of course, I was shocked, but how >do you argue with WOMEN who trounce the very lessons >that THEY taught you to believe? Eloise: We, of course, got over that particular prejudice over here, having had a woman Prime Minister who did not shrink from taking us to war! Tom: >So, it would appear that the specter of empire and the >throwback to old prejudices is *definitely* included >(whether JKR intended it or not) as an assumption in >her creation of the British WW. You know, I really >enjoyed someone's observation in another thread to the >effect that JKR was implying that the British WW holds >currently the place in the magical world that the >British empire held in the muggle world a hundred years >ago. And I see some credence to that. In a way, it's an >inborn defense, a way of asserting relevance in a world >in which the Brits are really either subsumed into the >whole of Europe, or coined as America's lackeys. In fact, >just read a poll in the NYTimes yesterday that Blair's >taking heat for just that criticism. Tough place to be in, >really. Eloise: Thank you for your sympathy. ;-) This, as it happens, is the inverse of the argument I use when defending Americans from the charges of ethnocenticity (well, that's how *I* term it) frequently levelled at them from over here, which I explain as being partially because you are in a similar position of power to that which we once occupied, when we must have displayed similar attitudes. Tom: >And so she creates this world in which the Brits are >tip-top, kings of the mountain. It's got a beautiful >sort of nostalgia to it, really. Eloise: I'm sorry, as Brit I have never got that feeling from reading JKR. I suppose that just means you believe that I have a nostalgia for the empire I never knew. I don't believe that. JKR's portrayal of females has been criticised. I've criticised it. It's been discussed at length on this list and having recently been through a whole, long thread on gender, I would say the jury is out on that one. On the matter of race, JKR reflects the situation in Britain today. Now, I agree that with hindsight, it would seem probable that a greater proportion of ethnic minority wizards would have achieved prominence, given that JKR appears to be trying consciously to convey a Potterverse where racism based on colour doesn't exist and there is only one school, so that poor education is not part of the formula. However, this also assumes that the racial mix of the wizarding population is as great as it is in the real world. I am far from clear what would cause large scale population movement in the WW, whose economy is surely different from ours and which already has its own underclass in the Elves, so has had no need to encourage cheap labour to enter the country from abroad - which, of course ultimately was the reason for much immigration into Britain. Tom: >But JKR's attempt to >divert the prejudicial issue into something a little >more fantastic, like bigotry against mudbloods, >werevolves and giants, really doesn't overthrow the >point that the assumptions are *still* built-in. > >>Ebony writes: >>2) I do not think that the wizarding world in these >>books is a utopia from racial or religious prejudices. >>I did not say wizards were prejudiced. I do think that >>the wizarding community seems to be tolerant of Muggle >>differences such as race and religion (and perhaps >>even sexual orientation). However, as the author >>herself is a product of post-imperial Britain, the work is not >>completely free of the legacy of empire. > >Ebony, I could not agree more with you. Right on the >head of the nail. Eloise: But what I don't get is what the point of this is. Ebony says she wouldn't change the books, yet speaks of "the pernicious legacy of empire" which sounds very critical. At least, it does to me. How do you write a book which reflects the reality of life in post-imperial Britain, without reference to this? If it is merely an observation - that Britain still shows signs of its imperial past - then I'd say, of course, naturally it does. And it would do, no matter how perfect our political stuctures, how equal our opportunities. It would show, merely by the presence of the Dean Thomases and Angelina Johnsons, which was where this started, IIRC. But there seems to be something pejorative about the observation, as if by reflecting the reality of having citizens of West-Indian origin, JKR is somehow, if unwittingly, *condoning* imperialism. I'm sorry if I'm misrepresenting you. Of course, if we had *no* imperial past, then we would also have a much less racially mixed society. And Dean and Angelina probably wouldn't be at Hogwarts at all. Tom: >OH - and something else that crossed my mind: What if >the native African wizards who immigrated to the UK >send their kids BACK to their roots for study? That >might explain why we have no Odunbakus at Hogwarts. >Just an idea. Eloise: Which is what I said in my last post in essence. As I am personally sure that Western European magic cannot be the only tradition of magic, I would expect immigrants who had kept to their own traditions to send their children home to school. It has always struck me as a very imperialist idea that Hogwarts magic is the only, or the best kind of magic and I don't think that is really implied.. Ebony: > Indeed, no one answered this part of my original post: > >Me: >"I also think it's significant that the other nonwhite characters >that we see being educated at Hogwarts represent nations that England >either conquered completely (Ireland, India, etc.) or had some sort >of favored nation status with (China--although Hong Kong was under >British control for a long time, yet? Don't know the history >completely there.) If there was no empire in the history of JKR's >wizarding world, then why are they being educated in Britain? >Because Hogwarts is the best school in the world? If so, then *why* >is Hogwarts the best, and not another place where magic likely has >been practiced far longer (China, Egypt, etc.) than in either Britain >or Europe?" I'm sorry, Ebony, I thought I did quite directly answer this in my last post. Though it's not my field really, so perhaps it wasn't quite on the level you wanted. I should add, of course, that these are groups who often have a claim (or certainly used to have a claim) to the right of abode in Britain, not that this would probably worry wizards. I'm trying to hear what your saying. But basically I have a problem making the logical leap from saying that because JKR reflects the legacy of RL empire in her works, as a consequence of anchoring them in reality, we can imply that her WW has a similar history. And I don't think her using of the pure-blood/ Muggle born divide is simply a diversion of the race issue. I think it is, as I said before, an attempt to make it a much bigger issue and one with which all her readers, white as well as non-white can identify. ~Eloise From tmarends at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 23:42:32 2003 From: tmarends at yahoo.com (Tim ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 23:42:32 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Obsessed Readers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50919 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Anne " wrote: > I just discovered at least 50 (and possibly 70) new messages since I > last read this message board last night. So it got me to wondering > something that probably should be moved to the OT-Chatter list > immediately: Does anyone of the 5,700+ members of this group read > *every* message? (and if so, when do you find time to do anything > else?? :-) I assume the mods have to read all the messages, but does > anyone else? I'm not trying to be snide, I just realized that there's > no way on earth I'll ever be able to read all the messages on this > list AND do other things I'm supposed to be doing (like, uh, working > at my job, which is what I should be doing right now). > > I really love reading what people have to say (even the 12K messages) > so I'm feeling a bit depressed that I will certainly have to miss out > on many of the insights that people bring to this discussion. Like > Hermione, I guess I want to be able to do it all, and realize that I > really can't :-( > > Anne U > (who wouldn't be able to handle a Time Turner at my age even if I > were a witch) Yes, I read each and every post. It gets very time consumming when I miss a couple of days for some reason. Today is the first day I've been able to catch up with the board since last Wednesday... that's over 400 messages. I currently have a little over a 100 left to go!! I love reading people insights and opinions and theories as to what has happened so far and what's to come. I will be at Barnes and Noble on June 20th at midnight. ;-) Now for my non-OT post... I personally think the V man will play a small, almost non-existant part in OOP. His minions (ie. Lucius) will play a bigger part than he will. Tim From anakinbester at hotmail.com Tue Jan 28 23:49:22 2003 From: anakinbester at hotmail.com (anakinbester ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 23:49:22 -0000 Subject: A theory regarding the "innocence" of Sirius Black an... In-Reply-To: <4c.1741bb21.2b686327@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50920 Oryomai wrote > That could be the point. We gained trust for Sirius in PoA...maybe it's a > leap of faith. Kinda like in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (?) when he > has to "leap" across the cavern. There could be another Shrieking Shack type > show down. Harry could be shown some new evidence and has to decide whether > he still fully trusts Sirius. Make a leap of faith so to speak. Could be a > big turning point ... for everyone. > Funny you should bring this up. We PISA members over on FAP (Peter Is Sympathetic Association) brought up the possibility of a guilty Sirius recently. I think we all agreed that there probably won't be a switch like that, but as I said, none of the book by book villains have been who the same to be, so why should the villains for the over all story be so clear cut? Webba I believe pointed out, among other things that Trelawny specifically says Voldemort's servant was chained. *shrugs* In a more literal than figurative sense that does seem to fit Sirius better than Peter. But then again, it's a prediction. Those are never literal. Wouldn't it have been nice though if she could have just named the servant =P Moving on, there are two incidences in which Peter speaks like a semi rational human being. (as opposed to muttering and mumbling etc) One is when he finally admits his guilt, and again when he accuses Sirius of being a spy (and having dark powers) Now this could be seen as trying to convince people that it was Sirius. But if that's the case, why doesn't he speak with such conviction on his own innocence. We have once incidents of him lying forcefully, the rest of the time, he can't get three words together to form the lie. Perhaps he simply fell apart as no one was believing him (but then again, arghh if he was a spy for a year, he should have some skill at lying) It could also be taken as a moment when Peter told the truth. Now I admit, two of James's friends being DE"s, seems highly unlikely (but then so did Rita being an illegal animagi) But, What if Sirius was, if not working for Voldemort, involved in Dark Magic? We know from Snape that Black did try to kill him. Honestly I don't know what the whole situation was, but that's not normally what you do to someone even if you hate them, and Sirius showed no remorse about it even later. So to me that's always indicated that Sirius might not be as calm and levelheaded as he comes off in GoF. So maybe there is some disturbing secret awaiting us about Sirius Black. -Ani Spell checked this one =P Hopefully it helped From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Tue Jan 28 23:49:31 2003 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 23:49:31 +0000 Subject: Life debts again was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: A theory regarding the "innocence" of Sirius Black and the Redemption of Peter References: Message-ID: <3E37170B.7050503@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50921 finwitch wrote: > > Speaking of that scene, though- When Sirius dragged Remus away as a > dog, he also happened to save stunned!Snape's life as well as all > three kids (though those three probably could have managed for > themselves, Harry&Hermione helping Ron, they'd not have saved Snape). > Snape just doesn't know it yet or does he know and hates Sirius for > that as he does with James Potter or how we should interpret it? > I don't think this kind of "saving" creates a life debt. It's not very clear from the books, but my feeling is that wizarding life debt requires two components: intent and risk of your own life. If intent was not necessary, then everyone has life debt to baby!Harry, for example. I don't think it's the case. And you can't get someone in debt if saving his life was a part of your job, e.g. I don't think Harry has life debt to Dumbledore for stopping his fall in PoA. Irene From dorigen at hotmail.com Wed Jan 29 00:14:22 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 00:14:22 +0000 Subject: Linnets and Valerians as influence on JKR Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50922 erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com says: >JKR has said that >Elizabeth Goudge's The Little White Horse was one of her favorite >childhood books, and, after reading it, I liked it so much I decided >to read Goudge's Linnets and Valerians. Well, in Linnets and >Valerians, there are bees that provide protection and guidance to the >characters in the books. I'm wondering if that could have been JKR's >inspiration to give Dumbledore a name that means "bee." > >There are also mandrakes and a character named Tom Biddle in Linnets >and Valerians, but I'll discuss those another time! I like that book too, and come to think of it, there are also: A person believed dead who turns out to have been alive under everyone's nose all the time (okay, he's not a bad guy, but still ...) Extremely helpful and intelligent animals who are, in several cases, a better judge of character than the humans A servant with a heavy regional accent, a penchant for overdrinking, and a strong friendly relationship with the children who are the main characters Janet Anderson (who really, really hopes Hagrid lives through the entire series) * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Jan 29 00:16:12 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001 ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 00:16:12 -0000 Subject: A theory regarding the "innocence" of Sirius Black and the Redemption of Peter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50923 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "christi0469 " wrote: > > "Didn't make any difference?" said Dumbledore quietly. "It made > all > > the difference in the world, Harry. You helped uncover the truth. > You > > saved an innocent man from a terrible fate." > > > Now, although Dumbledore again mentions no names, who else can he > be > > talking about here, except Sirius? > > > > > Dumbledore could have just as easily been referring to saving > Pettigrew from being killed be Remus and Sirius. I happen to > personally believe that Sirius was the innocent man based on > Dumbledore's apparent trust in him at the end of GOF; however, I > think JKR is setting us up to doubt Sirius in the future. > No, I don't think that flies because Dumbledore used the phrase "innocent man." There is no way that Peter comes off as innocent or blameless after the Shrieking Shack scene. And, if Dumbledore believes that Sirius is innocent of the crimes he was imprisoned for, then that means he has to believe the real Secret Keeper, Peter, was guilty of betraying the Potters, etc. I don't quarrel with your thought that JKR is setting us up to doubt Sirius. A lot of people on the list have problems with him already - he's got a temper, he's too impulsive, he'll go off half-cocked and make a bad situation worse, he's a bully, he's arrogant, he's mentally unbalanced, he doesn't apologize. So, if he does something shady or ambiguous in OoP, that will certainly add fuel to the fire. I, however, remain steadfast in the belief that he's a good guy, with his own bundle of faults, but with his heart in the right place. Marianne From dorigen at hotmail.com Wed Jan 29 00:23:41 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 00:23:41 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who would you vote for? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50924 I will also cast my vote for Arthur Weasley. Dumbledore already has a vitally important job (which is probably his opinion too, or he would have accepted the MoM job when it was offered). Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Jan 29 00:24:41 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001 ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 00:24:41 -0000 Subject: A theory regarding the "innocence" of Sirius Black an... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50925 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "anakinbester " wrote: > But, What if Sirius was, if not working for Voldemort, involved in > Dark Magic? We know from Snape that Black did try to kill him. I can't let this pass. We know that's what Snape *thinks.* We still do not know that that was Sirius' intent. Boy, I hope JKR gives more backstory on this. Although, perhaps this is the perfect example of JKR skillfully making her readers believe that Sirius is not to be trusted, that underneath that handsome exterior beats a heart of darkness. > Honestly I don't know what the whole situation was, but that's not > normally what you do to someone even if you hate them, and Sirius > showed no remorse about it even later. So to me that's always > indicated that Sirius might not be as calm and levelheaded as he > comes off in GoF. Ah, see? You fell right into JKR's trap! ;-). Marianne From kewiromeo at aol.com Wed Jan 29 00:26:49 2003 From: kewiromeo at aol.com (kewiromeo at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 19:26:49 EST Subject: Mundungus Fletcher Message-ID: <9c.2cfbd6b5.2b6879c9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50926 We all know that Dumblydore sends Sirius to go round up the gang which consists of Mundungus Fletcher, Arabella Figg, and Lupin. I haven't read CoS in a while and I ran by his name. He had been raided by the Misuse of Muggle Artifacts department of the MoM. Has this been discussed before. What do you think it means? Tzvi of Brooklyn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 23:29:09 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 23:29:09 -0000 Subject: More about the wizarding world and empire... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50927 Well, it appears that Yahoomort can force a post as easily as he can take one away. ;-) Let's try this again. Pippin wrote: If Rowling had made Dean's last name Nkrume, it would destroy a parallel with the WW, where Muggle-style last names may indicate Muggle origin (as in Granger) or not (as in Potter). I reply: Um. How? I guess, what I mean is that Ebony's point seems to be that Britain is a secular society. So, in a secular society, all kinds of people, will all kinds of last names, will reside, regardless of their ethnic histories. In a secular society, you are just as likely to have immigrants as you are to have third, fourth, fifth and so forth generations of immigrants, some with adapted names, some with their native names. I guess what I'm getting at here is that I just don't see what all this fuss about names is for. I believe that Rowling simply made a mistake. It's just as likely to have Potters, Grangers, Malfoys, Patils, and Changs in Britain, as it would be to have Costas, Menendezes, Nkrumes, Vladoviches and Muhammads. I think Ebony's point regarding Rowling as a product of the post-colonial period, along with that great quote from Zipes, is simply that Rowling, for all of her good intentions and attempts to divert our attention from muggle problems and onto parallel wizard problems, is still missing some key points. And one of those, is that since Britain has all kinds of people, it should have all kinds of names, and if it did, then we'd be seeing more of those kinds of names. One defense pops into my mind, although it is a feeble one, to be sure. Rowling said in an interview that Hogwarts had roughly one thousand students. And we've not even met five percent of them all. So there very well may be a Nkrume at Hogwarts that we just haven't encountered yet. Although frankly (and the reason I said it was a feeble defense,) I'm not sure that exonerates her... she could be putting more of an effort in to, y'know, indicate diversity at the school. -Tom From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Wed Jan 29 00:03:00 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 00:03:00 -0000 Subject: Life debts again was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: A theory regarding the "innocence" of Sirius Black and the Redemption of Peter In-Reply-To: <3E37170B.7050503@btopenworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50928 Irene writes: I don't think this kind of "saving" creates a life debt. It's not very clear from the books, but my feeling is that wizarding life debt requires two components: intent and risk of your own life. I reply: I think I have to disagree here: the first instance of life debt that we hear of is the life debt that Pettigrew owes to Harry, right? What risk to his own life was Harry facing when he told Sirius to show mercy to Pettigrew? Aside from the hypothetical risk, none, really. So, although we haven't been given specific rules for what constitutes a life debt, I don't think that risk-to-one's-own-life is necessarily a qualifying factor. -Tom From dan at tobias.name Wed Jan 29 00:11:54 2003 From: dan at tobias.name (Daniel R. Tobias) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 19:11:54 -0500 Subject: Cauldrons and Bill Weasley Message-ID: <3E36D5FA.28922.F00C9F1@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 50929 Lynda (ArtsyLynda at aol.com) said: > Those kids ought to be really fit and strong, so carrying a pewter cauldron > around shouldn't be that hard. But the main thing is -- the cauldrons are > supposed to be pewter, and they probably aren't very big, maybe saucepot size > to do small samples of potions such as they'd do in class. JMHO. But the interesting question is, if Hermione was using her cauldron to make Polyjuice Potion (tying it up for a month), what did she use in Potions class during that period? Certainly, Snape would have a fit about it if she claimed to have lost her cauldron, and probably deducted some points for it. -- == Dan == Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/ Dan's Domain Site: http://domains.dan.info/ From firekat482 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 29 00:25:59 2003 From: firekat482 at yahoo.com (firekat482 ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 00:25:59 -0000 Subject: Just where was that silly little rock, anyway? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50930 I was just reading a post about Harry and the Mirror of Erised, and it got me thinking. In the book Harry doesn't encounter the Mirror (for the first time) until sometime during the Christmas holidays. And, as we can deduce from the book, Hagrid took the Stone from Gringotts before the start of term. Now, my question is, where was the stone being kept for the four months between the start of term and when it is moved (presumably to help protect the Stone) around Christmas? Now, one could argue that it had been in the mirror the whole time, and Fluffy and co. were around to distract QuirrelMort from finding out where it really was. But if that was the case, then why was the mirror moved down there after Harry had seen it? If the plan was to distract the aforementioned villain, then wouldn't it have made sense to just move the mirror to another seldom used room? Most likely, though the Stone wasn't in the mirror. (Indecently, just what kind of charm would accomplish that anyway? The wizarding world sure has spells for the strangest stuff...) So where was it? Surely they just didn't stick it on a pedestal at the end of the 'obstacle course.' With lots of big, shiny pointing arrows and flashing signs saying "Here! Take me!" It seems strange to me how the security surrounding that silly rock fluctuates so much. First Gringotts, then somewhere in Hogwarts, then in a mirror. And then in the hands of an eleven year old. Ahem...but I digress. This leads me to ask other interesting (or just annoying) questions like, Why didn't Dumbledore just carry it around in his pocket all the time? *That* would have kept it safe, as we all know how much Voldie fears Dumbledore. Or, if Dumbledore had some big objection to sleeping with a rock (and who wouldn't?) why not just destroy the thing in the first place? That's what they ended up doing anyway... Hmmm...I hope I haven't rambled too much. I also hope this is an original question. I looked around the archives a bit, and didn't find anything. Oh - and before I forget. This is a question I've been dying to ask for some time, but didn't think it was worthy of its own separate post: Why can paintings talk, but pictures can't? Ideas, anyone? ~Jean Although I can accept talking scarecrows, lions, and great wizards of emerald cities, I find it hard to believe there is no paperwork involved when your house lands on a witch. ~Dave James From megalynn44 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 29 00:48:31 2003 From: megalynn44 at hotmail.com (Megalynn S.) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 19:48:31 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Will Be Accused and Locked up in Azkaban/ His Escape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50931 >Me:" have to disagree with this, it's just too easy. It is plain >to see Cedric was killed by Avada Kedavra and as fake Moody said > >"Avada Kedavra's a curse that needs a powerful bit of magic behind it- >you could all get your wands out now and point them at me and say the >words, and I doubt I'd get so much as a nosebleed." > >Jim Ferer: >It may be that a wizard can tell if someone was killed by AK, but >maybe not. All they know for sure is Cedric's dead. As for Harry >knowing AK, how can you prove a wizard doesn't have a certain skill? >Harry's learned a lot of hexes, and he's the most talented wizard of >his age. Moody can't testify Harry didn't know Avada Kedavra. Me: Actually as the very first chapter of GOF shows, AK leaves the body perfectly healthy and fine. The person is simply dead. Canon plainly shows one can tell if one has been AKed. As for Harry's skill, again, in the Dark Mark chapter, while at first a few wizards are so scared they want to blame the trio, rational finale does set in that these children simply could not have made the Dark Mark. I think the AK would have to be 10 times harder and so of course I think any grown logical wizard would plainly know (including the Digorys who met with Harry after the task) that Harry couldn't have done it. I am not saying that the deatheaters won't try to get Harry discredited and sent away to St. Mungus or Azkaban, but I think Harry has already been cleared of any wrong doing at the end of GOF. Megalynn _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Wed Jan 29 00:52:56 2003 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 00:52:56 +0000 Subject: Life debts again was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: A theory regarding the "innocence" of Sirius Black and the Redemption of Peter References: Message-ID: <3E3725E8.3030301@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50932 Tom Wall wrote: > I reply: > I think I have to disagree here: the first instance > of life debt that we hear of is the life debt that > Pettigrew owes to Harry, right? > > What risk to his own life was Harry facing when > he told Sirius to show mercy to Pettigrew? Um, Sirius having a fit and killing him? :-) Seriously, maybe the definition of "putting your own life in danger" is not the correct one, but there must be something else. We don't have much to go by, Peter's debt to Harry and Snape's debt to James. What James and Harry's decisions had in common? They both choose the right thing over the easy one, didn't they? It would be easier for Harry to fulfil his immediate desire for revenge. If we believe that James had some better reasons than just "getting cold feet", then he also rejected the easy choice of doing nothing. But the strange thing is that Snape believes both in being indebted to James and in James acting purely for selfish reasons, so maybe this theory doesn't fly either. Irene Aside > from the hypothetical risk, none, really. > > So, although we haven't been given specific rules > for what constitutes a life debt, I don't think > that risk-to-one's-own-life is necessarily a > qualifying factor. > > -Tom > From megalynn44 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 29 00:57:27 2003 From: megalynn44 at hotmail.com (Megalynn S.) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 19:57:27 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mundungus Fletcher Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50933 Tzvi of Brooklyn wrote: >We all know that Dumblydore sends Sirius to go round up the gang which >consists of Mundungus Fletcher, Arabella Figg, and Lupin. > >I haven't read CoS in a while and I ran by his name. He had been raided by >the Misuse of Muggle Artifacts department of the MoM. Has this been >discussed >before. > >What do you think it means? > Me: Oh Mundungus is my favorite unknown character! He is also mentioned earlier in GOF as putting in a claim for a huge damaged tent at the world cup when Percy saw him sleeping under a stick and coat (or something like that, I am paraphrasing here). I don't know if he is mentioned anywhere else, but he seems like quite a character and I am hoping against hope we are introduced to him in June. I like you haven't heard many theories about him but my computer is slow, so I cannot utilize the search too much. Since the old crown mentions Lupin I would make the (big) assumption that Mundungus and Arabella are the same age and went to school together. Of course we already know that Arabella Figg is the same old ladt Ms. Figg who babysat Harry but maybe she is even more not what we believe. Are there any other mentions of Mundungus in the books? Megalynn _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Wed Jan 29 01:10:14 2003 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 01:10:14 -0000 Subject: Thoughts on Dumbledore letting Voldimort into the school Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50934 We have been assuming that Dumbledore either did not know that Voldemort was concealed in Qurrell's turban or he allowed him to room the school unchecked. Either of them is pretty bad from the side of dumbledore's need to keep the children safe, but I did have three thoughts about why he might allow him to enter. 1) We know the Qurrell talked to Snape (who, as we learn from book 4, was a DE and later a spy). Could part of the idea be to allow snape a chance to get back into Voldemort's good graces? 2) What's keeping Voldemort on earth and not going to the next world? He says in book 4 that he nearly gave up hope. If he had, would he have vanished? Remember the way of getting to the stone could not be used by voldemort. If he had got as far as the end, risked being poisoned, crushed and sliced to bits by mad keys, would he not dispair when the stone was denied him by his own nature? If so, would he have died? 3) could Dumbledore have been hoping that if Harry touched Voldemort, it would kill him for good? Therefore, he want to a great deal of trouble to get the two foes together in an all-or-nothing situation and keep them away from the rest of the school, just in case. Best of all, whats to stop these two plans working together? Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Jan 29 01:17:59 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 01:17:59 -0000 Subject: A theory regarding the "innocence" of Sirius Black an... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50935 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001 " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "anakinbester > " wrote: > > But, What if Sirius was, if not working for Voldemort, involved in > > Dark Magic? We know from Snape that Black did try to kill him. > - - - - - - - - -- - - - > Marianne replied: > > I can't let this pass. We know that's what Snape *thinks.* > We still > do not know that that was Sirius' intent. ...edited... > -end this part- > anakinbester orignially said: > > > Honestly I don't know what the whole situation was, but that's not > > normally what you do to someone even if you hate them, and Sirius > > showed no remorse about it even later. ...edited... > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > To which Marianne replied: > > Ah, see? You fell right into JKR's trap! ;-). > > Marianne bboy_mn: We know what we know, but what we don't know, we don't know. When this has come up before, I speculated that this is how the conversation might have gone. Scene: Black catches Snape seeking around and spying on them (the Maurader's) again, sick and fed up with Snape contant annoyance, and constant efforts to get them into trouble or expelled, Black reaches his limit and confronts Snape. Black: Snape, how many times have I told you to leave us alone. Keep you big nose out of our business. Snape: I won't rest until I've found out what you are up to; certainly no good, and once I find out you and your high and mighty little friends will be out of here. Once I find out what your doing not even the headmaster will be able to save you this time. I saw Lupin enter the tunnel under the Whomping Willow. You might as well tell me, because I won't rest until I find out. Black: All right. ALL RIGHT! You want to know, well I'll tell you. I'll tell you because I'm going to enjoy watching you die, and die you will if you don't stay out of this. You want to see where Lupin goes? Well, prode the knot on the Whomping Willow and it will freeze, then you can go meet your doom. You listen to me very closely, Snape. You go into that tunnel and it will be the last thing you ever do. When you come out, they will be carrying what is left of you in shoe box. So if you are dying of curiousity, then go ahead and die. ...and my God have mercy on your rotten soul. (OK, he probably wouldn't have said 'rotten soul' but I was running out of dialog.) True, there is an element of reverse psychology here, but Black did give Snape fair and clear warning. This could very easily be preceived by Snape as Black's idea of a joke. Black, in a moment of anger and frustration, told Snape what he wanted to hear and bluntly warned him, although, he probably suspected Snape would go anyway. Why no remorse from Black? Because, in his mind, he told Snape crystal clear that if he went into that tunnel, he would be dead. He feels no guilt in Snape not heeding that warning. Althouh, I think there is a part of him that subconciously knows he screwed up big time, and eventually that will come out. Just one perspective. bboy_mn From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jan 29 01:24:37 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 01:24:37 -0000 Subject: Harry Will Be Accused and Locked up in Azkaban/ His Escape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50936 Megalynn:"Actually as the very first chapter of GOF shows, AK leaves the body perfectly healthy and fine. The person is simply dead. Canon plainly shows one can tell if one has been Aked." I don't think canon plainly shows that one can detect AK. It does show that Muggle coroners couldn't, but that's to be expected. Wizards can tell better, probably, and they may be able to detect AK; OTOH, they may only be able to infer it from the absence of any other explanation for the death. Still, it's only one way to bring Harry under false charges. They'll try another. Megalynn:As for Harry's skill, again, in the Dark Mark chapter, while at first a few wizards are so scared they want to blame the trio, rational finale does set in that these children simply could not have made the Dark Mark. I think the AK would have to be 10 times harder and so of course I think any grown logical wizard would plainly know (including the Digorys who met with Harry after the task) that Harry couldn't have done it." The only wizard that accused the trio was Barty Sr., and he was probably afraid already that his son had gotten loose and done it. I don't see any foundation for your assertion that Avada Kedavra is more difficult than the Dark Mark spell. Less people would know the Dark Mark spell - who would learn it but a Death Eater? - but AK, that Harry might have learned during the year, and he can't prove he didn't. The person who was most likely to have taught him how is now worse than dead. Proving a negative is a very tough thing to do. Also remember this: we're not dealing with 'grown logical wizards' here, we're dealing with villains who want to get Harry. Megalynn:"I am not saying that the deatheaters won't try to get Harry discredited and sent away to St. Mungus or Azkaban, but I think Harry has already been cleared of any wrong doing at the end of GOF." Harry hasn't been actively accused that we know of. He was not cleared of anything. I agree, I would have expected to hear something before the end of GoF, but the door is not closed, especially if there's trumped up 'new evidence.' (An example: Draco, Crabbe, or Goyle come forward and tell how Harry threatened them with AK, bragging that he knows it now so they'd better watch their step.) This would have the benefit from the Death Eater point of view of alienating Harry from the Hogwarts students and the public. Actually, I agree with you that the "Harry murdered Cedric" scenario is less likely than some others, especially some fresh accusation we can't yet see; but there's no reason to believe he *can't* be accused of murdering Cedric. Jim Ferer From jmmears at comcast.net Wed Jan 29 01:33:49 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 01:33:49 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Banter and other SHIP subjects In-Reply-To: <001401c2c688$45a469d0$57b45a42@falcon> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50937 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Falcon" wrote: On a separate note, I did discover in GoF that Harry is no longer short, but rather he is average height. It's in the Divination class, where Trelawney says, "your dark hair and mean stature." Mean means average, and stature refers to height. I looked it up in three different books just to make sure. I'm afraid that I must disagree here about the word "mean". When I read this section of GoF, I immediately assumed that when Trelawney mentions Harry's mean stature, she meant that he was small and thin. I checked the Merriam-Webster on-line dictionary to be sure and where the word "mean" is listed as an adjective, the first definition was "1. lacking in distinction or eminence". There are a great many definitions for the word "mean" listed and I can understand how this can be confusing. I think that the way Trelawney is using the word is more common in English usage than American, however. Perhaps one of our British listmembers could help clarify this point. Anyway, although I'm sure that Harry is growing to some extent every year, I think that he is still short and small for his age. After all, on the same page in GoF as Trelawney's remark about his "mean" stature we have: "I've got two Neptunes here," said Harry after a while, frowning down at his piece of parchment, "that can't be right, can it?" "Aaaah"' said Ron, imitating Professor Trelawney's mystical whisper, "when two Neptunes appear in the sky, it is a sure sign that a midget in glasses is being born, Harry..." Jo Serenadust, who thinks that most of Ron and Hermione's exchanges are pretty hilarious From snorth at ucla.edu Wed Jan 29 01:36:35 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 17:36:35 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A theory regarding the "innocence" of Sirius Black an... References: Message-ID: <00c001c2c736$df263620$d3447442@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 50938 > bboy_mn: > Scene: > Black catches Snape seeking around and spying on them (the Maurader's) > again, sick and fed up with Snape contant annoyance, and constant > efforts to get them into trouble or expelled, Black reaches his limit > and confronts Snape. > > Black: > Snape, how many times have I told you to leave us alone. Keep you big > nose out of our business. > > Snape: > I won't rest until I've found out what you are up to; certainly no > good, and once I find out you and your high and mighty little friends > will be out of here. Once I find out what your doing not even the > headmaster will be able to save you this time. > > I saw Lupin enter the tunnel under the Whomping Willow. You might as > well tell me, because I won't rest until I find out. > > Black: > All right. ALL RIGHT! You want to know, well I'll tell you. I'll tell > you because I'm going to enjoy watching you die, and die you will if > you don't stay out of this. > > You want to see where Lupin goes? Well, prode the knot on the Whomping > Willow and it will freeze, then you can go meet your doom. > > You listen to me very closely, Snape. You go into that tunnel and it > will be the last thing you ever do. When you come out, they will be > carrying what is left of you in shoe box. > > So if you are dying of curiousity, then go ahead and die. ...and my > God have mercy on your rotten soul. > > > (OK, he probably wouldn't have said 'rotten soul' but I was running > out of dialog.) > > True, there is an element of reverse psychology here, but Black did > give Snape fair and clear warning. > > This could very easily be preceived by Snape as Black's idea of a > joke. Black, in a moment of anger and frustration, told Snape what he > wanted to hear and bluntly warned him, although, he probably suspected > Snape would go anyway. > > Why no remorse from Black? Because, in his mind, he told Snape crystal > clear that if he went into that tunnel, he would be dead. He feels no > guilt in Snape not heeding that warning. > > Althouh, I think there is a part of him that subconciously knows he > screwed up big time, and eventually that will come out. Snape has shown himself to be incredibly irrational at times (*cough*shriekingshack*cough*) , so it wouldn't suprise me if the situation were exactly (or close to) as described above. He would of course, hold it against Sirius, even though it was his own stupidity that got him into it. -Scott From kristen at sanderson-web.com Wed Jan 29 01:40:48 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (gkjpo ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 01:40:48 -0000 Subject: Harry Will Be Accused and Locked up in Azkaban/ His Escape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50939 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer " > I > don't see any foundation for your assertion that Avada Kedavra is more > difficult than the Dark Mark spell. Less people would know the Dark > Mark spell - who would learn it but a Death Eater? - but AK, that > Harry might have learned during the year, and he can't prove he > didn't. The person who was most likely to have taught him how is now > worse than dead. Proving a negative is a very tough thing to do. > Well, Fake!Moody does say that the whole class could AK him and he wouldn't even get a nose bleed. Therefore, though we cannot compare the difficulty to the Dark Mark, we do know that it is a tough spell to get correct. > Harry hasn't been actively accused that we know of. He was not > cleared of anything. I agree, I would have expected to hear something > before the end of GoF, but the door is not closed, especially if > there's trumped up 'new evidence.' (An example: Draco, Crabbe, or > Goyle come forward and tell how Harry threatened them with AK, > bragging that he knows it now so they'd better watch their step.) > This would have the benefit from the Death Eater point of view of > alienating Harry from the Hogwarts students and the public. > > Actually, I agree with you that the "Harry murdered Cedric" scenario > is less likely than some others, especially some fresh accusation we > can't yet see; but there's no reason to believe he *can't* be accused > of murdering Cedric. I have to say that I simply cannot believe this theory at all. Even if there were accusations and a trial (though I don't even believe that it would come to that), Dumbledore, Sirius AND Lupin would have to be completely discredited and/or dead for this theory to even be plausible. I cannot see that there is ANY way that they would allow Harry to be put into the hands of the Dementors at Azkaban. They know that Voldemort is back and that the Dementors will join him whenever he asks. There is no way they would allow it to happen. If the risk even came up, Dumbledore would send Harry away to a safe place. What I COULD see happen is where the Dursleys find out about St. Mungos and send Harry there (they were tipped off by their affluent new client - a reclusive Mr. Malfoy). Harry arrives and is thrown into a cell (built with Lucius Malfoy's money of course). While there he sees Neville come to visit his parents and learns more about the true state of the Longbottoms. In the meantime, Arabella Figg rouses Dumbledore and crew to mount a rescue. It would be an interesting way to meet Arabella Figg and find out "all about her". Kristen From kristen at sanderson-web.com Wed Jan 29 01:48:59 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (gkjpo ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 01:48:59 -0000 Subject: Dursley's charmed, bribed, afraid? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50940 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall " wrote: > Maybe the letter also clued them in about Mrs. Figg? > We're never really told exactly *how* it is that > the Dursleys know her, are we? It seems a little > serendipitous that they'd just HAPPEN to meet her > somewhere. Probably more likely that Dumbledore > told them in the letter something like "...blah blah > blah and I cannot stress to you how important it is > that he stay safe, so if you ever have reason to go > off and need to leave Harry to be babysat, then > contact Arabella Figg at this address and she will be > glad to keep watch over the boy." > > Or something like that. After all, she lives two streets > away from them, so it's not as though they're just outside > in the garden chatting together or anything. > > -Tom Uh, is she there? The letter was written and delivered right after Harry's parents died. Was there time to find a place for Arabella to live and get her there in order to be mentioned in this letter? Even if you account for the "missing 24 hours", I find it hard to believe that Dumbledore spent that time house hunting. Also, the threat from the dark side was dimished somewhat at that point with Voldemort gone (Dumbledore probably spent his time verifying that - or, maybe he was setting MAGIC DISHWASHER in motion :). In addition, I offer a Star Wars reference. Luke lived with his aunt and uncle who knew all about his past and his family. They didn't even tell Luke about Obiwan and discouraged him when he asked calling him a crazy old man. They did this because they knew that Ben was a Jedi and they didn't want Luke to become one even if he was "strong in the force". His uncle even went so far as to force Luke to keep working the farm so that he wouldn't run off to the royal academy and possibly discover his father's world. The Dursleys strike me as very similar. They are trying to trounce the magic out of Harry. There is no way they would allow him to associate with a person they know to be magic for fear that that person would teach Harry about his past and how to use his powers. I think it's much more likely that Mrs. Figg moved quietly into the neighborhood soon after Harry arrived and became a friendly neighbor who offered to babysit whenever necessary. Kristen (posting this the second time since my browser went haywire) From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Wed Jan 29 01:55:28 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 17:55:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Life debts again was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: A theory regarding the "innocence" of Sirius Black and the Redemption of Peter In-Reply-To: <3E3725E8.3030301@btopenworld.com> Message-ID: <20030129015528.69505.qmail@web40513.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50941 Tom Wall wrote: > I think I have to disagree here: the first instance > of life debt that we hear of is the life debt that > Pettigrew owes to Harry, right? > > What risk to his own life was Harry facing when > he told Sirius to show mercy to Pettigrew? Irene: Um, Sirius having a fit and killing him? :-) Seriously, maybe the definition of "putting your own life in danger" is not the correct one, but there must be something else. We don't have much to go by, Peter's debt to Harry and Snape's debt to James. What James and Harry's decisions had in common? They both choose the right thing over the easy one, didn't they? It would be easier for Harry to fulfil his immediate desire for revenge. If we believe that James had some better reasons than just "getting cold feet", then he also rejected the easy choice of doing nothing. But the strange thing is that Snape believes both in being indebted to James and in James acting purely for selfish reasons, so maybe this theory doesn't fly either. Me: You know, I've always explained the life-debt bond to myself pretty much the same way Irene does it - "they both chose the right thing over the easy one." Instead of giving in to 'bad' feelings such as hate, selfishness, want of revenge, jealousy, irritation, they do what is right - they are generous, they overcome whatever temptation they might have to let history take its course. As for Irene's words about James - what he did actually fits the bill. Instead of letting Snape die, he saved him, even though Snape was an irritating git. Harry saved Pettigrew's life, overcoming his feelings of hate towards him. Snape tried to repay his life-debt to James by saving (?) Harry in PS when Quirrellmort was jinxing Harry's broomstick. Snape did this, even though he hated Harry very much, but put his hate aside and did the right thing. As for Snape believing James acted out of selfish feelings - well, it's Snape! He wanted to hurt Harry (1), he *really* has a sore spot right there where the Prank is concerned (2), and he also seems to believe that Lupin was "in on the joke." (3) *Come on*! You know, if he believes in that, than any other feelings he has on the subject should be taken into consideration with caution. So, yeah. That theory works. Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kristen at sanderson-web.com Wed Jan 29 02:06:13 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (gkjpo ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 02:06:13 -0000 Subject: MAGIC DISHWASHER question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50942 I have a question for those of you who believe in the MAGIC DISHWASHER theory (if you don't know what this is, you can read about it at http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hypotheticalley.html#md) - a very interesting theory by the way, I'll have to think about that. When you think about the publisher's teaser with Dumbledore about to tell Harry "everything", do you think he will reveal: a. the truth b. misinformation to push Harry the direction he needs to go c. nothing - he will be prevented from telling Harry anything of value Kristen From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jan 29 02:11:54 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 02:11:54 -0000 Subject: Harry Will Be Accused and Locked up in Azkaban/ His Escape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50943 Kristen:"Fake!Moody does say that the whole class could AK him and he wouldn't even get a nose bleed. Therefore, though we cannot compare the difficulty to the Dark Mark, we do know that it is a tough spell to get correct." Fake!Moody makes that remark to a class that has had no instruction in how to cast AK. Harry, as we've seen, is an extraordinarily talented wizard who is already casting spells most others his age can't. Kristen:"I have to say that I simply cannot believe this theory [Harry being railroaded into Azkaban] at all. Even if there were accusations and a trial (though I don't even believe that it would come to that), Dumbledore, Sirius AND Lupin would have to be completely discredited and/or dead for this theory to even be plausible." One of Harry's defenders you name is under a worse than death sentence and another one is of a despised and distrusted group, werewolves. They have negative credibility in the eyes of the wizard world. Dumbledore remains a strong defender, but he now has the enmity of the Minster of Magic. How independent is the wizard judiciary? We might find out. Kristen:"There is no way they [Dumbledore, Sirius, and Remus Lupin] would allow it [Harry being sent to Azkaban] to happen. If the risk even came up, Dumbledore would send Harry away to a safe place." THAT I agree with completely. Sirius or Lupin might even take a page out of Crouch's book and go there *as* Harry via Polyjuice Potion (which someone ought to sell in six packs, the stuff gets used so much). I also like your "Harry gets rescued from St. Mungo's" scenario. Who is in on it is open to speculation, of course, but why not Arabella Figg? She's going to be an interesting character, whatever she does. Jim Ferer, who'd get a six pack of the George Clooney polyjuice for the weekend. From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Wed Jan 29 02:19:18 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 02:19:18 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Banter and other SHIP subjects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50944 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "serenadust " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Falcon" wrote: > > > On a separate note, I did discover in GoF that Harry is no longer > short, but rather he is average height. It's in the Divination > class, where Trelawney says, "your dark hair and mean stature." Mean > means average, and stature refers to height. I looked it up in three > different books just to make sure. > > I'm afraid that I must disagree here about the word "mean". When I > read this section of GoF, I immediately assumed that when Trelawney > mentions Harry's mean stature, she meant that he was small and thin. > I checked the Merriam-Webster on-line dictionary to be sure and > where the word "mean" is listed as an adjective, the first > definition was "1. lacking in distinction or eminence". There are a > great many definitions for the word "mean" listed and I can > understand how this can be confusing. I think that the way > Trelawney is using the word is more common in English usage than > American, however. Perhaps one of our British listmembers could > help clarify this point. > > Anyway, although I'm sure that Harry is growing to some extent every > year, I think that he is still short and small for his age. After > all, on the same page in GoF as Trelawney's remark about his "mean" > stature we have: I believe that 'of mean stature' implies that Harry is 'of average height' (ie. neither *tall* nor *short*) for his age group > > Jo Serenadust, who thinks that most of Ron and Hermione's exchanges > are pretty hilarious I think that Ron's pretty hilarious *period* "Can I see Uranus too, Lavender" :D Erica From lorischmidt1 at juno.com Wed Jan 29 01:33:54 2003 From: lorischmidt1 at juno.com (ladyofmisrule2000 ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 01:33:54 -0000 Subject: Was it a back-handed compliment? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50945 Hey, all! During the course of my lurking, I read that there is some evidence that Harry's and Hermione's magical talents are beginning to eclipse those of Ron. One piece of evidence that was cited in this argument was that Barty Crouch, Jr. (in the guise of Moody) told Harry and Hermione they'd make good aurors, but did not extend the same "compliment" to Ron. My question is: was it really such a compliment? Remember that much of what Crouch, Jr. said has proved to have a double meaning. For instance, when he tells Harry, "If there's one thing I hate...it's a Death Eater who walked free." (Harry assumes its Moody speaking as a disgruntled auror, but we later discover that it really Crouch, Jr. voicing his anger that he is the only Death Eater who stayed loyal.) Also, remember that as a loyal supporter of Voldemort, Crouch, Jr. is not likely to have met an auror he really liked. That's as far as I've gotten in my theorizing, however. Anybody want to help me figure out what it is about Harry and Hermione that Crouch, Jr. finds objectionable? Lori From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Wed Jan 29 02:01:47 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 02:01:47 -0000 Subject: Snape's rationality (WAS: A theory regarding the "innocence" of Sirius ) In-Reply-To: <00c001c2c736$df263620$d3447442@xyrael> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50946 Scott wrote: Snape has shown himself to be incredibly irrational at times (*cough*shriekingshack*cough*), so it wouldn't suprise me if the situation were exactly (or close to) as described above. He would of course, hold it against Sirius, even though it was his own stupidity that got him into it. I reply: I would submit that Snape is actually eerily rational, especially in the Shrieking Shack. I think that what unnerves me most about Snape is the fact that he seems almost always to be 100% accurate in his assumptions, and they're nearly always shrewd deduction. Snape does not seem to be the type that goes on a hunch, at least not to me. I'm in class now, and my teacher is talking (and looking at me suspiciously) so I can't check the canon, but a few instances come to mind: CoS: -En route back from the Deathday Party, Harry hears the Basilisk and the trio dashes up the stairs to find another petrified victim. Snape immediately suspects that they aren't telling the whole truth concerning why they are there without dinner and when Ron lies and says that they weren't hungry, his stomach betrays his lie and rumbles. PoA: -In the Shrieking Shack, Snape is not interested in the finer points of the story. Snape is interested in the cold, hard facts: Lupin is consorting with a KNOWN, convicted criminal in the presence of three students. Pettigrew, for Snape, is a non issue. As far as Severus is concerned, Pettigrew is dead, and he just earned himself the Order of Merlin. In fact, along this line, Snape even seems compassionate when he insists that the students must have been under a charm. He could have targeted Harry et al right then and there - but didn't. -When Sirius vanishes mysteriously at the end of the book, Snape INSISTS that Harry had something to do with it, despite (lying) assurances from Dumbledore, and blind assurances from Fudge. GoF: -When Harry is caught in the missing step under the Invisibility Cloak, and Snape is forced to deal with Moody/Crouch, he suspects Harry of being around (which he is.) There are more examples of this, but I can't think of them offhand. You know, at first, I really didn't like Snape at all. I think that that is how she wanted it. But by now, I feel sympathy for him, and I really, really am starting to like him a lot. I think he's got it tough, and he seems like the kind of guy who was never much appreciated by anyone. In fact, that's my theory as to the reason that he became a Death Eater, although I don't know if he'll ever let his guard down long enough to say so. The Death Eaters gave him some sense of self-worth. But then his conscience got the better of him. Just my thoughts. -Tom From Malady579 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 29 02:23:23 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 02:23:23 -0000 Subject: Silly stone whereabouts and Paintings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50947 Jean wrote: > Now, my question is, where was > the stone being kept for the four months between the start of term > and when it is moved (presumably to help protect the Stone) around > Christmas? Ok this dabbles near my bit patch to MD. I cannot resist. Quick basic overview of my views of things. I believe that Dumbledore baited Voldemort and Harry into the mirror obstacles so they can confront each other and hopefully Harry will kill Voldie. See, from the way I see it, the "old crowd" was not sure Voldie could be killed in a host body so they had to see before they used the flawed potion and destroyed the Sorcerer's stone. That way Flamel lives, Voldie is gone, and all is well with the world. Now, a big part of this theory is that Quirrelmort was being baited to go in the room when *they* wanted him to. Dumbledore and Snape wanted to interest him, but also keep him from the mirror until Harry is ready to confront him. So they are luring him the where *they* want him and when they want him. So from that perspective, they can take the stone out and do whatever they want to until they need the stone there. They have convinced Quirrelmort (through the showing Quirrelmort the obstacles since he did have one too and Snape's threatening) that the stone is in fact there. Quirrelmort would not bother Dumbledore, so Dumbledore can carry the stone around, have Fawkes perch on it, play a hide the stone/Easter egg game with Snape. Whatever they want to really. Why would they do this? ::shrugs:: Why not? Now if I get a bit more serious, I will say the stone was probably always in the mirror. The only reason we think it was not there during Christmas is because Harry did not see it. Frankly, Harry was not desiring it, so why would he? But if I drop *my* views of things...a big heavy thud is heard followed by the silence of a room free of a dishwasher hum. Why would Dumbledore jeopardize the safety of the sorcerer's stone just to show Harry his parents? Why indeed. Frankly that one fact is what sent me down my little path in the first place. Whether the stone was in the mirror the whole time or whether the stone was "somewhere else", Dumbledore most not be that worried about Voldemort getting it. He seemd quite secure while he let Harry see his parents. But then again, if Dumbledore just wanted Harry to see his parents, then he would of let Hagrid give Harry that picture book earlier. So Dumbledore had to have more reason than that. Dumbledore may of wanted to see Harry's true heart. See Harry's inner drive. But then, if that is true, then why? Why take the time to see how one student is? Why single one out? It seems to me we all can agree that the mirror was "placed" there by Dumbledore. Is there anyone that wants to make a case, he didn't? So then, since it was, then Dumbledore must of felt confident enough to "jeopardize" the mirror defense to let Harry find the deepest desire of his heart. Why he did it is left for debate. And really, he did bait Harry into that room that night. Dumbledore *wanted* Harry there just as much as he wanted Harry to go through the mirror obstacles. Both events go hand in hand. Jean's side question: >Why can paintings talk, but pictures can't? I guess I always assumed paintings over pictures, because paintings have three dimensions. Yes, some more than others, but pictures are purely, definitely, always two dimensions. Also, old paintings have always been rumored to have a spooky presence mostly because, until the time of photography, a good portrait painter is one that can paint beyond the canvas and capture reality perfectly. A painting that looks real even though it is not. Really, both have personalities, which is what I find so amusing. The photos are forced to live the same day over and over again. Lockhart will constantly drag Harry into the picture. But if it is a portrait painting, then the picture seems to have its own life. It can shift from painting to painting. Live a sort of life. Learn knew things. Oh- just thought of something. Ron's Quidditch posters. They can fly in and out of the other posters in his room. But they don't seem to realize there is a world outside of themselves. Now I am confused. Oh well. Melody From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jan 29 02:37:07 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 02:37:07 -0000 Subject: A midget in glasses, was SHIP Banter and SHIP subjects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50949 Erica:"I believe that 'of mean stature' implies that Harry is 'of average height' (ie. neither *tall* nor *short*) for his age group" This is from the Encarta dictionary for "mean" when used _as an adjective_: shabby: shabby and poor-looking. [example]'streets full of small mean houses' "Mean" in the sense of average (the point where half of the sample universe is above and half below) is not used as an adjective in my experience, and it's not listed in the Encarta dictionary as an adjective. Sybil thinks Harry is a unlucky, tragic runt. Jim Ferer, who agrees Harry is unlucky if he has to go to Trelawney's class From sholden at flash.net Wed Jan 29 02:40:33 2003 From: sholden at flash.net (SHolden) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 20:40:33 -0600 Subject: Harry's Height (was SHIP: Banter and other SHIP subjects) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50950 Falcon: On a separate note, I did discover in GoF that Harry is no longer short, but rather he is average height. It's in the Divination class, where Trelawney says, "your dark hair and mean stature." Mean means average, and stature refers to height. I looked it up in three different books just to make sure. Jo Serenadust: I'm afraid that I must disagree here about the word "mean". When I read this section of GoF, I immediately assumed that when Trelawney mentions Harry's mean stature, she meant that he was small and thin. I checked the Merriam-Webster on-line dictionary to be sure and where the word "mean" is listed as an adjective, the first definition was "1. lacking in distinction or eminence". There are a great many definitions for the word "mean" listed and I can understand how this can be confusing. I think that the way Trelawney is using the word is more common in English usage than American, however. Perhaps one of our British listmembers could help clarify this point. Me: Okay, I'm a math teacher. "Mean" is defined as average. Since Trelawney is using this term in reference to a height, "mean" is referred to as an average, so Harry is of *average* height. Though I also would not mind one of our British listmembers to inform us on this topic. :-) I would also like to point out that in every book, besides GoF, Harry describes himself as a short skinny boy. However, in GoF, when he looks at himself in the mirror: GoF (US Version) p16 "A skinny boy of fourteen looked back at him, his bright green eyes puzzled under his untidy black hair." Harry no longer describes himself as short. Jo Serenadust: Anyway, although I'm sure that Harry is growing to some extent every year, I think that he is still short and small for his age. After all, on the same page in GoF as Trelawney's remark about his "mean" stature we have: "I've got two Neptunes here," said Harry after a while, frowning down at his piece of parchment, "that can't be right, can it?" "Aaaah"' said Ron, imitating Professor Trelawney's mystical whisper, "when two Neptunes appear in the sky, it is a sure sign that a midget in glasses is being born, Harry..." Me: I always saw this as a jibe at Harry from Ron. Alright. I know that the guys on here would probably agree with me, especially the tall ones (I hope??). It does not matter about the difference in height between two guys to call one "a midget." A guy could be an inch/few centimeters shorter than the taller guy, and the taller one would still call the shorter one a midget. From observing my husband (6 feet and 3 inches) and his brother (5 feet and 11 inches), this is a running joke with them. Sarmi [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Wed Jan 29 02:49:28 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 02:49:28 -0000 Subject: A midget in glasses, was SHIP Banter and SHIP subjects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50951 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer " wrote: > Erica:"I believe that 'of mean stature' implies that Harry is 'of > average height' (ie. neither *tall* nor *short*) for his age group" > > This is from the Encarta dictionary for "mean" when used _as an > adjective_: > > shabby: shabby and poor-looking. [example]'streets full of small mean > houses' > > "Mean" in the sense of average (the point where half of the sample > universe is above and half below) is not used as an adjective in my > experience, and it's not listed in the Encarta dictionary as an adjective. > > Sybil thinks Harry is a unlucky, tragic runt. > > Jim Ferer, who agrees Harry is unlucky if he has to go to Trelawney's > class mean(3) adj. Occupying a middle or intermediate position between two extremes. Intermediate in size, extent, quality, time, or degree; medium. Being of middle age and a mean stature. --Sir. P. Sidney. " While the British were tall by European standards in 1800, from the late eighteenth century to the middle of the nineteenth century the trend in average height was downward, suggesting a biological counterpart to the Kuznets' curve. At least some groups in the United States, Australia, and Germany also experienced declines in mean stature. " Erica From Malady579 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 29 02:52:45 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 02:52:45 -0000 Subject: MAGIC DISHWASHER question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50952 Kristen asked: >I have a question for those of you who believe in the MAGIC >DISHWASHER theory (if you don't know what this is, you can read about >it at http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hypotheticalley.html#md) - a very >interesting theory by the way, I'll have to think about that. > >When you think about the publisher's teaser with Dumbledore about to >tell Harry "everything", do you think he will reveal: > a. the truth > b. misinformation to push Harry the direction he needs to go > c. nothing - he will be prevented from telling Harry anything of > value Ok, given that I am the only MDDT up right now, and you were kind enough to ask (glad *you* find us interesting Kirsten ).... Do you honestly want to know? Honestly. *Honestly.* Well ok.... MAGICAL DISHWASHER was not created to predict the future of the books. It is only created to explain what has happened so far. Ok, after I dodge the many assorted objects thrown my way... Sorry! It is the truth. Based on MD, no one can say what Dumbledore is planning now. We can assume something involving that life dept and Harry's blood, but honestly, we cannot predict past that. Harry is growing up. Dumbledore will give information as he sees Harry can deal with it. That seems to be how Dumbledore is working with Harry so far. Remember: Dumbledore is trying to *end* this terrorist war with Voldemort. He wants to end it with the least amount of pain to all. If keeping information a secret for the time being, information that is not detrimental to survival, then Dumbledore's first responsibility is to the good of the wizard world. So really... If Dumbledore still sees it best to keep Harry in the dark, then bully for Dumbledore. He has his reasons. If Dumbledore want to tell Harry the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, then he has an extremely good reason there too. What I can say Kristen, is that Dumbledore, of course, will *not* lie. :) Melody [hope that helped]...[yes I could not resist] From susannahlm at yahoo.com Wed Jan 29 03:05:42 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 03:05:42 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Banter and other SHIP Subjects Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50953 Falcon wrote: I was hoping that Penny or Ebony, or Derannimer would take care of this, but since they haven't posted yet, I felt I should say something.I'm a die-hard H/Hr, and even if JKR does R/Hr in canon, I will still be an H/Hr. I read the FAP, and the SugarQuill, and it amuses me that so many people are so concerned with what will make Ron happy. This is Harry's story, he is the one that we are supposed to want the best for, not Ron. I don't like Ron much, because I see in him so many of the guys I went to school with. I believe that all Trio Shipping should be analyzed from the viewpoint of what is best for Harry. Ron's feelings do not concern me in the least. All I care about is how Harry and Hermione get together. If Ron's feelings get trampled, then so be it. After GoF, I can't bring myself to care much about the boy. Now me: *Pause.* *Cringe.* Look, I'm sorry, and I thank you for mentioning me up there, but I *really* have to take issue here. You can analyze the Trio SHIPping from whatever darn angle you *please.* And your angle is that all we "should" care about is what happens to Harry. That that is how we are "supposed" to think about it. If by "should" and "supposed" you mean that this is the only somehow fair, or somehow acceptable, way of SHIPping the Trio, then I could hardly disagree with you more. The reader is under no obligation, *of any sort,* to root for Harry simply because he is the protaganist. The reader is under no obligation to like Harry the most. The reader is under no obligation to *only* care about Harry. *You* only care about Harry. But so what? I mean, bully for you. But *don't* start suggesting that there's some kind of. . . moral imperative for all of us to feel the same way. Now maybe you didn't mean to suggest that, and if not, then I apologize for blowing a gasket like this; but by using words like "should," and "supposed to," you *strongly suggested* some kind of moral imperative. Actually, whether you meant to suggest it or not, I do apologize anyway--this was a bit strong--but you see. . . well, I take this rather personally. Because heaven knows *I* don't just care about Harry. He's not even my favorite character. That would be (sorry, Captain) Snape, actually. Who Harry doesn't even like. There are a lot of different viewpoints that you can read the books from; I don't think you can say that *only Harry's* is correct. Derannimer (who just finished watching "Taken," and whose favorite character *there* was *Eric Crawford.* I mean, go figure.) (And who is very glad that Eric got a Redeeming Death Scene.) ; ) From Malady579 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 29 03:39:35 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 03:39:35 -0000 Subject: Thoughts on Dumbledore letting Voldemort into the school In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50954 Christopher wrote: > We have been assuming that Dumbledore either did not know that >Voldemort was concealed in Quirrell's turban or he allowed him to >roam the school unchecked. We do? I did not get that memo. >Either of them is pretty bad from the side of Dumbledore's need to >keep the children safe, but I did have three thoughts about why he >might allow him to enter. Yes, those views are pretty bad, but you cannot blame Dumbledore for missing that fact no more than you can blame him for missing the Crouch!Moody twist, can you? Well that is a bit unfair. Quirrel did an awful job hiding his changed status. Wearing a big purple turban. Oh yeah. *That* is conspicuous. Wore garlic to hide the smell. Adopted a stutter. Hmm...Dumbledore is a terrible spymaster if he missed all that. Terrible indeed. >1) We know the Quirrell talked to Snape (who, as we learn from book > 4, was a DE and later a spy). Could part of the idea be to allow > Snape a chance to get back into Voldemort's good graces? Yes I think it can be. Snape's words are vague enough there to make us believe he may still be on Voldie's side, so it may of convinced Voldemort. Except - Quirrell seemed to know better. He knew Snape was trying to find out how far he had gotten and did try to beat him to the obstacles. If Quirrel knew that, then given that Voldemort was attached to his head, then Voldemort knew too. I guess Snape could do some fancy footwork to explain away, but honestly...at this point, if *you* were Voldemort and had at least one of your "servants" around Snape ever since you left, would you believe him? I think not. (Remember: Peter was the Weasley rat. He was at Hogwarts most, if not the whole, time Voldemort was gone. So Voldie has accounts from Peter, Quirrell, and Barty Jr. on Snape. Things do not look too good for him.) >2) What's keeping Voldemort on earth and not going to the next > world? He says in book 4 that he nearly gave up hope. If he had, > would he have vanished? Well, I think Voldie was lying. He was trying to make Dumbledore believe, once the info got back to him about what happened at the DE graveyard party by way of Harry or someone else...the man *is* a spymaster, that all the MoM had to do what find him. If they only had found Voldie, then they could of killed him. What would of killed him was the loss of hope. Now come on! The loss of hope? Voldie clinging to the last whisps of hope in his life. The hope that he too can be an evil overlord over all the world. The hope that one of his loyal DE's will find him. Please. That is not hope. Hope requires love, and Voldie has not a drop of love for anyone. Well...maybe Nagini. And the other reason, is to put guilt in the DE's heads. Guilt that said, their master needed them, and they were not there. Another card Voldie could play to give cause for his "pain" on them. >3) could Dumbledore have been hoping that if Harry touched > Voldemort, it would kill him for good? Therefore, he want to a > great deal of trouble to get the two foes together in an > all-or-nothing situation and keep them away from the rest of the > school, just in case. Yes! That is my theory. Did you just read my previous post? No not that one, the one about the stone. Yes, that one. I completely believe Dumbledore knows Quirrel is Quirrelmort. I also believe that Dumbledore is trying to bring about Voldemort's downfall, and the only thing that has worked on Voldie so far is Harry. So therefore, Dumbledore is trying to orchestra the plan to bring them together, away from the other school kids that cannot blister evil people with their hands, and see if Voldie finally dies. Unfortunately, he does not, but Dumbledore is there to save Harry. How convenient really. So, I say....Dumbledore had Voldemort right where he wants him. He had him under watch and baited. Right where you want your enemy really. Voldemort was no real threat to the students. I guess he could of caused some problems, but that would blow his "cover". Voldie was mind-bent on the stone. Dumbledore knew this. Dumbledore used this. Yes, it was a bit of an elaborate plan, but not as much as in the main of MD, and I have not problem making those leaps. Melody From pennylin at swbell.net Wed Jan 29 03:42:46 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 21:42:46 -0600 Subject: SHIP: Romantic Comedy & Author Intent; Ginny References: Message-ID: <0a2901c2c748$7d190680$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 50955 Hi -- I said: > With respect to my assertion that JKR may not have heard the term "cute meet" before or intended her PS/SS interactions to work that way, Pippin said: > Pippin replied: > <<<< Elizabethan dramatists did, in 1590 or so.>>>>>>>> > I then said: > That still doesn't address the issue of her *intent.* I still say she may not have intended the effect that you see. <<< Pippin now says: <<>>>>>>>>> So. I set out to write a murder mystery, and I write what I think *is* a murder mystery. Derannimer buys it and interprets it to be romantic comedy. Is it reasonable for Derannimer to complain that I'm not following accepted conventions of romantic comedy writing, when in fact I never intended to write a romantic comedy at all? You see, I think what's happening here is that I subscribe very much to an active reader response theory. The text, IMO, can mean something totally different to you than it does to me. So, where you see romantic comedy, I see none. But, I don't see how you can argue that *your* interpretation squares with Rowling's intent ....... or whether that would even matter. <<<<<), it's reasonable to expect some comic/romantic involvement later.>>>>>>>>> But, this is all with hindsight. When you first read PS/SS, you had no idea that the Weasleys would be important until later in the story. You definitely didn't know but what Hermione would be a very minor character, never to appear much again. Where's Piers Polkiss after all? Lee Jordan appears very early on the Platform, and he's not a particularly developed character. I think you're imposing hindsight on your interpretation. At the time, I certainly didn't expect comic/romantic involvement. I still don't. <<<>>>>>>>>> Well, I'm afraid I really can't agree with this. That may well be true for some readers, but not this one. I've found Ginny irritating from the get-go, and I never once considered that she was Harry's potential romantic partner. Briefly, after I read CoS, I thought that might be a possibility, but I immediately read PoA after that and quickly decided that no, Ginny couldn't possibly hold that role since JKR shunted her even more in the background in PoA. That's one thing I definitely can't see as a "convention" (holding the hero's love interest into a completely background undeveloped role for a sustained period of time). Makes no sense to me. We see Ron's burgeoning interest in Hermione, which is crafted very skillfully into the narrative, IMO. That is decidedly not true with Ginny. So, I think JKR would have to break with some tradition and conventionality if she intends to thrust Ginny into that role in a way that won't leave the readers feeling that it was contrived and forced or perhaps even an after-thought. I absolutely don't see Ginny as equivalent to the Trio, and I wouldn't say that Ginny is a developed female character. McGonagall is far more developed, and it's McGonagall that critics cite as evidence that Hermione isn't the *only* developed female character in the series. The critics don't seem to find Ginny the least bit compelling, and I agree. And, well, my feelings about Ron and Hermione's interactions are well-known. So, I have absolutely no desire to see those 4 characters eventually connect in the pairings you suggest. :--) Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From snorth at ucla.edu Wed Jan 29 04:37:46 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 20:37:46 -0800 Subject: Snape's rationality (WAS: A theory regarding the "innocence" of Sirius ) References: Message-ID: <00da01c2c750$2d34a090$d3447442@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 50956 Scott (this is me) wrote: > Snape has shown himself to be incredibly irrational > at times (*cough*shriekingshack*cough*), so it > wouldn't suprise me if the situation were exactly > (or close to) as described above. He would of course, > hold it against Sirius, even though it was his own > stupidity that got him into it. Tom: > I would submit that Snape is actually eerily rational, > especially in the Shrieking Shack. > > I think that what unnerves me most about Snape is the > fact that he seems almost always to be 100% accurate > in his assumptions, and they're nearly always shrewd > deduction. Snape does not seem to be the type that goes > on a hunch, at least not to me. Me: I think you're slightly off-base on the definition of 'rational'. Also note that I did say that "Snape has shown himself to be incredibly irrational at times," which is different than "Snape is an irrational person," which I actually do not think is true. I'll explain. Tom Again: > CoS: > -En route back from the Deathday Party, Harry hears the > Basilisk and the trio dashes up the stairs to find > another petrified victim. Snape immediately suspects > that they aren't telling the whole truth concerning > why they are there without dinner and when Ron lies > and says that they weren't hungry, his stomach betrays > his lie and rumbles. Now me: First, I'd like to comment on Snape's relationship with Harry, and how this prevents him with being truly rational regarding Harry. >From the beginning of the series, Harry has never given Snape a reason to dislike him, at least not a believable one. Note that Snape singles Harry out on the first day of class, before any Snape/Harry interactions. Of course, Snape will later claim that his intense dislike of Harry stems from Hary's disregard of the rules. I find this interesting. Why? It seems to me that if Snape had such high respect for 'the rules,' he'd be the head of Hufflepuff, not Slytherin. From the Sorting Hat Song: Or perhaps in Slytherin You'll make your real friends, Those cunning folks use any means To achieve their ends. -PS/SS As a professor, and house head, of course Snape is going to enforce rules. HOWEVER, I honestly can't see the head of Slytherin singling a student out because of their 'disregard for the rules.' If anything, I would think some of Snape's favorite students would be people who 'use any means to acheive their ends.' Where Harry is concerned, Snape is irrational; he lets his relationship with James Potter transfer to Harry (it's also mildly ironic, in that Harry doesn't even know his father). I mean, sure, Snape may try to save Harry's life now and then, but that doesn't mean he can't intensely dislike Harry at the same time. Okay, so in Chamber of Secrets, Snape's line of reasoning is solid, but his bias is still evident; He seems to believe that Harry is somehow involved with the petrification of Mrs. Norris, when as Dumbledore (who in my book, is "Captain Rational"), says "No second year could have done this." (CoS, The Writing on the Wall). Onto the next point, which is why I brought up the "Snape is irrational at times" thing. Tom Again: > PoA: > -In the Shrieking Shack, Snape is not interested in > the finer points of the story. Snape is interested > in the cold, hard facts: Lupin is consorting with a > KNOWN, convicted criminal in the presence of three > students. Pettigrew, for Snape, is a non issue. As > far as Severus is concerned, Pettigrew is dead, > and he just earned himself the Order of Merlin. > > In fact, along this line, Snape even seems compassionate > when he insists that the students must have been > under a charm. He could have targeted Harry et al > right then and there - but didn't. Whew, me again: First thing, compassion != rationality (that's 'not equals' for non-programmers). The fact of the matter is, this scene is why Snape bugs me- his utter inability to listen to reason when his temper is up. Okay, there are a lot of points for me to pick apart in this scene, so stick with me. I'll break it down point by point. 1) First thing: "I shall be interested to see how Dumbledore takes this . . . He was quite convinced you were harmless, you know, Lupin . . . a tame werewolf--" (PoA, The Servant of Lord Voldemort). Snape is a hypocrite. He's a former deatheater, and should clearly be in debt to Dumbledore. Dumbledore, who testified to the MoM that Snape had changed sides, and acted as a spy at great personal risk. Dumbledore, who made Snape the potions master at Hogwarts. Where would Snape be without Dumbledore? So, what right does Snape have to question who Dumbledore hires? He lets his prejudice (and his grudge from 'The Prank') blind him. 2) I'm going to copy a large portion of text, because it will make my argument for me, if you see this all in context. ============================================================================ ========== Hermione, however, took an uncertain step toward Snape and said, in a very breathless voice, "Professor Snape--it--it wouldn't hurt to hear what they've got to say, w--would it?" "Miss Granger, you are already facing suspension from this school," Snape spat. "You, Potter, and Weasley are out-of-bounds, in the company of a convicted murderer and a werewolf. For once in your life, hold your tongue." "But if--if there was a mistake--" "KEEP QUIET, YOU STUPID GIRL!" Snape shouted, looking suddenly quite deranged. "DON'T TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND!" A few sparks shot out of the end of his wand, which was still pointed at Black's face. Hermione fell silent. "Vengeance is very sweet," Snape breathed at Black. "How I hoped I would be the one to catch you . . ." "The joke's on you, Severus," Snape breathed at Black. "As long as this boy brings his rat up to the castle"-- he jerked his head at Ron--"I'll come quietly. . . ." "Up to the castle?" said Snape silkily. "I don't think we need to go that far. All I have to do is call the dementors once we get out of the Willow. They'll be very pleased to see you, Black . . . pleased enough to give you a little kiss, I daresay . . ." What little color there was left in Black's face left it. "You--you've got to hear me out," he croaked. "The rat-- look at the rat--" But there was a mad glint in Snape's eyes that Harry had never seen before. He seemed beyond reason. ============================================================================ ========== >From PoA, The Servant of Lord Voldemort. Okay, if you even TRY to suggest that Snape is being anything close to rational; well, you're what Keirsey would call an 'Idealist,' which is someone than tends to have issues with logic (*grins*). Note that Harry describes Snape as seeming "beyond reason." Let's look at the first couple of dictionary defintions for 'rational.' rational adj. 1.. Having or exercising the ability to reason. 2.. Of sound mind; sane. I shouldn't be having to make this argument at all. Snape's judgement is obviously clouded by his past feelings toward Sirius and Lupin. Harry, is rational. Think about it; Harry has the most reasons for hating Sirius; he thinks that Sirius is directly responsible for the death of his parents. He is murderously angry at first (he wants to kill Sirius in the beginning of the Shrieking Shack scene, but something holds him back), but once he sees the facts, he is able to think clearly, and logically. If he didn't, well, he wouldn't have believed Sirius in the end, would he? Snape however, is so enraged, he won't even listen to the facts. I could go on and on about this, but there's not really any point. Tom again: > -When Sirius vanishes mysteriously at the end of > the book, Snape INSISTS that Harry had something > to do with it, despite (lying) assurances from > Dumbledore, and blind assurances from Fudge. Me (for the last time): His instistence isn't based off of proof or logic, so how can this be rational? There's no shrewd deduction here; it's all a hunch. Quod erat demonstrandum. It's not that I think Snape is an irrational person. I do believe, however, that he can NOT think clearly when it comes to certain people. This isn't a crime, not everyone can see every side of everything, all the time. Well, thanks for your time. Really, I don't mean to attack Snape. I had a low opinion of him after PoA, but it grew towards the end of GoF. -Scott (who does his best to be rational, even if it's not always easy :P ) From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Wed Jan 29 02:46:34 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 18:46:34 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Was it a back-handed compliment? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50957 Lori: During the course of my lurking, I read that there is some evidence that Harry's and Hermione's magical talents are beginning to eclipse those of Ron. One piece of evidence that was cited in this argument was that Barty Crouch, Jr. (in the guise of Moody) told Harry and Hermione they'd make good aurors, but did not extend the same "compliment" to Ron. Me: I thought of it more as a divisive comment. Moody probably sees how important Ron is to Harry, and this "compliment" also happens to put Ron down. Ron then would become jealous or resent Harry or Hermione for being "better" than him. I doubt this worked, though. It could also be that it was his true opinion... Harry and Hermione may very well possess the qualities Moody saw in the Aurors who caught him and his cohorts: Besides magical talent, they are fairly honest people who thwart evil on the weekends. -Danger Mouse From sholden at flash.net Wed Jan 29 02:53:06 2003 From: sholden at flash.net (SHolden) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 20:53:06 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Was it a back-handed compliment? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50958 Lori: During the course of my lurking, I read that there is some evidence that Harry's and Hermione's magical talents are beginning to eclipse those of Ron. One piece of evidence that was cited in this argument was that Barty Crouch, Jr. (in the guise of Moody) told Harry and Hermione they'd make good aurors, but did not extend the same "compliment" to Ron. My question is: was it really such a compliment? Remember that much of what Crouch, Jr. said has proved to have a double meaning. For instance, when he tells Harry, "If there's one thing I hate...it's a Death Eater who walked free." (Harry assumes its Moody speaking as a disgruntled auror, but we later discover that it really Crouch, Jr. voicing his anger that he is the only Death Eater who stayed loyal.) Me: I would think that a compliment from a DE would be better than from an Auror? After I found out that Crouch Jr. was a DE I found that his compliment to Harry and Hermione carried more weight, because he would know the skills need to be a good Auror. Lori: Also, remember that as a loyal supporter of Voldemort, Crouch, Jr. is not likely to have met an auror he really liked. Me: I completely understand. But I don't think it has to do anything with liking a person. Crouch Jr. knows what a good Auror is because he's a DE, wouldn't he know what it takes to get/catch a DE? Also, don't forget that he was impersonating Moody. Crouch Jr. could *not* let his guard down, or slip up, those that knew Moody would know something was up if he didn't act like himself. It would also be in character for Moody to notice such things about his students, no one questioned the fact that he turned Malfoy into a ferret, except McGonagall. The real Moody is not a nice guy. Sarmi [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kathleen at happ.net Wed Jan 29 03:42:42 2003 From: kathleen at happ.net (happybean98 ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 03:42:42 -0000 Subject: Harry Will Be Accused and Locked up in Azkaban/ His Escape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50959 Kristen: (Commenting on Azkaban!Harry) "I have to say that I simply cannot believe this theory [Harry being railroaded into Azkaban] at all. Even if there were accusations and a trial (though I don't even believe that it would come to that), Dumbledore, Sirius AND Lupin would have to be completely discredited and/or dead for this theory to even be plausible." Jim: One of Harry's defenders you name is under a worse than death sentence and another one is of a despised and distrusted group, werewolves. They have negative credibility in the eyes of the wizard world. Dumbledore remains a strong defender, but he now has the enmity of the Minster of Magic. How independent is the wizard judiciary? We might find out. Me: I agree with Jim 100% about Sirius and Lupin. As for Dumbledore, I am certain he will be removed somehow the moment Cornelius Fudge finds out from Rita Skeeter that he is harboring Sirius Black.. Any defense Dumbledore could give would be weakened if not annihilated by this turn of events. Kristen: "There is no way they [Dumbledore, Sirius, and Remus Lupin] would allow it [Harry being sent to Azkaban] to happen. If the risk even came up, Dumbledore would send Harry away to a safe place." Me: Again, I don't think Dumbledore's help will be enough. I am sure Dumbledore would try to help out in the trial...but will that be enough? Couldn't the MoM point out that Dumbledore once gave witness that Sirius Black was the Potter's secret keeper, and now Dumbledore is harboring him? That Dumbledore claims to be protecting Harry from Black, yet he brings Sirius Black into the same room as Harry?. I think Dumbledore will be the one sent to St. Mungo's. His actions appear so contradictory. Fudge implied at the end of GoF that Dumbledore was crazy for believing Harry so easily. Tom writes: (On prospect of Azkaban!Harry) They can portray Harry as nuts, but Azkaban? Highly doubtful. AND, at the beginning of PoA, when Harry meets Fudge in the Leaky Cauldron, doesn't Fudge actually *laugh* at the notion of Harry going to Azkaban? I respond: Yes, Fudge laughed at the beginning of PoA at the prospect of Harry going to Azkaban. He was so relieved that Harry was safe, he didn't think about giving Harry consequences. Obviously he was under pressure to keep Harry safe at this point. However, at the end of GoF we see that a shift is taking place regarding how Harry is seen by the WW. Fudge, Diggory, and of course Lucius Malfoy have held suspicions against him. It sounds to me as though Fudge is getting tired of babysitting Harry and would be grateful to be rid of him. Fudge is only worried about how he is percieved by the WW, and especially the MoM. His actions will flow from his desire to do what the MoM wants him to do. If that means protecting Harry one day and locking him up the next day....so be it. Me(In first post): "Good point. I guess I should more specifically say that Lucius Malfoy will accuse Harry of being in league with Voldemort. He knows Harry has faced him because he saw the pierced diary and had it returned to him by Harry." Jim Ferer writes: My objection to this theory is that I think the Death Eater strategy will be to keep the wizard world asleep and complacent as long as possible. They can count on the unwitting cooperation of the Minister of Magic; Fudge wants everything to be hunky-dory. I suggest that Lucius is going to say "there is no Dark Lord any more, thank goodness," and accuse Harry of killing Cedric himself to win the Cup. He might trump up some other charge, but I believe the Death Eaters don't want the wizard world to believe Voldemort is back. Me again: Good point about the strategic value of keeping the WW in disbelief about the return of Voldemort....however, to continue that ploy, there would be three other deaths they would have to explain. 1. Bertha Jorkins, 2. Frank Bryce (although this death may not be as significant) 3. Crouch Sr. At least two of these deaths will need to be explained somehow, even if they pin Cedric's death on Harry. Will they attribute the deaths to Harry? How? One possibility would be if Crouch Sr.'s death was pinned on Hagrid...after all...his "bone" transfigured body was buried outside Hagrid's hut. How long will it take for Fang to dig it up and leave it lying around Hagrid's place? As for Bertha Jorkins...this would be a little tougher to explain without including Voldemort...unless someone went out to Albania to search for her body. Also, don't forget the Dark Mark conjured with Harry's wand...checked by Amos Diggory himself. Both Crouch Jr. and Crouch Sr. can no longer take credit for/explain that mystery. In addition, the MoM would have to explain the appearance of the Dark Mark on Snape's arm, as well as the disappearance of Karkaroff. I guess leaving Voldemort out of the picture could work....and certainly would be desirable strategically, but would the WW believe fabricated explanations for all of the other Voldemort related deaths and disappearances? Jim again: So they (the MoM) have to find alternatives,( to Voldemort being involved): ** accuse Harry of killing Cedric himself so that he could win the Triwizard Cup himself, which fits in with the "glory-hunter" image Draco's been painting with Rita's help. Harry's wand gets "lost," or they accuse him of using a different one, or phony up the evidence Me: O.K. I guess they could accuse Harry of killing Cedric directly, using Cedric's own wand of course, since we currently don't know what became of it. Lucius could have confiscated it at Riddle's grave so it could not be checked. Harry could be accused of using it to kill Cedric, and then destroying it. My only reservation to this theory is that Harry doesn't know how to perform the AK curse....*nodding to several other comments made to this effect*... but I guess the MoM could overlook/ignore that. I wrote: Harry escapes [Azkaban] the same way Sirius does! By becoming an Animagus! Tom replies: I'm not crystal on this, but I thought it took years to perfect the animagical ability. Me: Good point. It took James, Peter and Sirius three years to manage it... however, Harry has been known to master difficult spells in shorter than the usual time.. for example, the Patronus charm. He also flew on a broom extraordinarily well the first time, even though he had never even seen one before. He was placed as Seeker on the Quidditch team his first year, previously unprecedented. I don't think his ability to accomplish animagical ability in a years time would be too much of a stretch, considering his history. Incidentally, I think an owl would be the perfect animagus for Harry for three reasons: 1. Harry's glasses would translate well to an owl's large eyes and "wise" reputation. 2. Harry has already established himself as an excellent flyer....(on a broom of course). 3. Harry's ability to locate a small Snitch from a distance and capture it quickly is very similar to the way an owl hunts for mice. Jim: (Giving other alternatives) ** portray Harry as a nutter, again playing up on the stories Rita has done, and try to get him iced in St. Mungo's. Steve agrees: They do accuse Harry of assorted misdeeds but the best Lucius can get is Harry commited to St. Mungo's. This is better than Azkaban, because it still allows a lot of the story to occur from Harry's perspective... (snip) Me: Yes, I've read that many people predict Harry will wind up at St. Mungo's. A stay at St. Mungo's would certainly discredit Harry before the WW. And yes, Rita Skeeter has painted him that way....so much so that Fudge seems to believe it at the end of GoF. Fudge says, "For heaven's sake, Dumbledore-the boy was full of some crackpot story at the end of last year too-his tales are getting taller, and you're still swallowing them-the boy can talk to snakes, Dumbledore, and you still think he's trustworthy?" That said however, how could the MoM keep him at St. Mungo's against his own will? If Harry can escape from Hogwart's, why would St. Mungo's be a setback? I still think Harry will end up in Azkaban because JKR has already set the stage for how the Dementors are Harry's weak point. We are supposed to quake at the very prospect of Harry being sent there.. didn't we quake when Harry first encountered Voldemort and wonder how in the world a little boy wizard would escape him? Now Harry has escaped Voldemort three times...we need a more palpable threat! Also, JKR has acknowledged that the Dementor's characterization came from her own experience of depression. (I like chocolate being the antidote for that on both levels!) Well, if Harry is going to defeat Voldemort eventually, (we hope), he can't have an Achilles heel. He has to face the Dementors and escape them somehow. If Voldemort really does convince the Dementors to join him as he proposes to do, someone has to learn of their weak points. What better way for Harry to learn this than to have to escape from them himself? Steve again: Option 2- Please allow me a brief side track into highly compressed FF. Harry is in the courtroom giving testimony in his own defense, no one is buying it, it looks bad for Harry, everyone is convinced he is going to Azkaban for sure. Suddenly, the doors to the courtroom burst open; it's Sirius Black looking hale and hearty. Sirius: You've got the wrong man, it was me all along. I did it all. Harry: NO... NO... yada yada Fudge: Summon the Dementors; perform the Kiss.(snip) Me: Yes! I like the courtroom drama concept! I am not completely opposed to there being lots of unexpected twists and turns in the proceedings...similar to the chapter "Cat, Rat and Dog" in PoA. Personally, I like the prospect of a conflicted Cho Chang being pressured to testify against Harry. Imagine poor Harry's chagrin! Having his crush revealed to everybody and suspected of jealousy before the entire MoM! I also like the idea of a torn Ginny.. unsure whether to lie and claim she, in fact, WAS conscious the whole time, (in order to defend Harry),... or tell the truth and risk incriminating him further. Percy's betrayal would be a real jaw dropper as well. I still hold, however, that Harry will be sentenced and sent to Azkaban. Steve again: Harry does go to Azkaban, but when Voldemort comes and frees all the prisoners, he frees Harry without realizing it. Harry takes a wand from a Death Eater, and Harry confronts Voldemort once more, and of course defeats him. Me: I think I could go with this...I'll have to think on it some more..although I don't think Voldemort will be defeated until Book 7. Have you considered that maybe the whole reason Lucius Malfoy would try to sentence Harry to Azkaban would be for the purpose of delivering him into Voldemort's clutches? Hmmm.... Jim: ** Play up the Draco incident on the train to a case of attempted murder that will land Harry in Azkaban, or at least get him expelled and open to attack outside Hogwarts. Me: Hmmm..maybe, but it would be hard to single out Harry as the only one responsible for that incident. Four other people were involved. Jim: ** concoct a story that Dumbledore and Harry are conspiring to make Dumbledore the next Dark Lord, which might neutralize both of them. Me: Wow, I could be stirring my pensive all night thinking of the implications of this one... I can't think of anything right away to comment about. As for neutralizing Dumbledore, I think Rita Skeeter will be able to do that once she informs Fudge that Dumbledore is harboring Animagus!Sirius Black. Tanya writes: For me, the whole Harry!Azkaban theory hinges on knowing who currently heads the Department of Magical Law Enforcement. We know what happened when Crouch was there, loads of the accused simply disappeared off to Azkaban. If the right guy is in there, Malfoy won't have to *prove* anything! Me: Good point, I hadn't thought of that...but I guess I'm still hoping for some courtroom drama! Tanya again: And, on a side note...who will head up the Department of International Magical Cooperation now that Crouch, Sr. is gone?... ... I fear Fudge's fondness for Lucius Me: Ooooh! Another good point...Lucius being appointed to this role would be a dreadful thing indeed. Kathleen From gwendolyn24 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 29 04:49:07 2003 From: gwendolyn24 at yahoo.com (Gwendolyn ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 04:49:07 -0000 Subject: Thoughts on Dumbledore letting Voldemort into the school In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50960 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Melody " wrote: > So, I say....Dumbledore had Voldemort right where he wants him. He > had him under watch and baited. Right where you want your enemy > really. Voldemort was no real threat to the students. I guess he > could of caused some problems, but that would blow his "cover". > Voldie was mind-bent on the stone. Dumbledore knew this. Dumbledore > used this. Yes, it was a bit of an elaborate plan, but not as much as > in the main of MD, and I have not problem making those leaps. > > > Melody I have to whole heartedly agree here. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. That phrase was coined for a reason...it works! It was also my own opinion the second I finished reading the book. Dumbledore was trying to TEACH Harry in an environment he could control. He's been letting/leading Harry into these situations giving him just enough breadcrumbs to lead him along the path. However I do think in GoF it got a bit out of his well planned control. The man's good but noone's perfect. Gwen From cantor at vgernet.net Wed Jan 29 06:11:49 2003 From: cantor at vgernet.net (Amy Miller) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 01:11:49 -0500 Subject: More about the wizarding world and empire, and humor Message-ID: <000801c2c75d$50234590$9290c318@amy9kgdax8rjp4> No: HPFGUIDX 50961 I think that "we Yanks" forget that other cultures do not encourage the "melting pot" theory of social structure. Great Britain still has royalty, and probably will for a long time. It might not be "acceptable" to put an Anglicized first name with an ethnic surname in their culture. In the USA we do this all the time, because we want to be accepted, to be like everyone else. I don't think that JKR's omission of ethnic names is a lack of "political correctness." It's possible that people in Great Britain don't name their children anything they like, but what they are expected to name them. [My uncle's name is Sam, but when he was born (1927) all the neighbors told my grandparents that Sam wasn't an *American* name. Better they should call him Seymour. He was Seymour until he enlisted in the navy.] She is very comfortable with interracial relationships, i.e. Fred and Angelina. Such a coupling would have been scandalous 25 years ago. One of the best interviews that JKR has given is at http://cbc.ca/programs/sites/hottype_rowlingcomplete.html IMO, it reveals much of her own personality and character and allows us to better understand how the WW and those who populate it were created. I agree that her female characters could have more substance. It's the same argument I had with Sesame Street when my daughters were little; all the strong characters were male. But the titles are not "Hermione Granger and the Chamber of Secrets", etc. Too bad.... Just a note about the humor (or humour) in the series. I think it was on the A & E channel's program "Biography" that JKR was asked about the humor in her books and she mentioned that she was a big Monty Python fan. Well, nothing is more "Pythonish" than using the acronym S.P.E.W. for the house-elf liberation movement! cantoramy (who named her daughters Jacqueline and Roberta so they would have dignified names in their old age, but addresses them as Jackie and Robin) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From snorth at ucla.edu Wed Jan 29 08:17:15 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 00:17:15 -0800 Subject: Harry Will Be Accused and Locked up in Azkaban/ His Escape References: Message-ID: <00fc01c2c76e$d59c1060$d3447442@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 50962 Kathleen > Good point about the strategic value of keeping the WW in disbelief > about the return of Voldemort....however, to continue that ploy, > there would be three other deaths they would have to explain. 1. > Bertha Jorkins, 2. Frank Bryce (although this death may not be as > significant) 3. Crouch Sr. At least two of these deaths will need to > be explained somehow, even if they pin Cedric's death on Harry. Will > they attribute the deaths to Harry? How? > > One possibility would be if Crouch Sr.'s death was pinned on > Hagrid...after all...his "bone" transfigured body was buried outside > Hagrid's hut. How long will it take for Fang to dig it up and leave > it lying around Hagrid's place? As for Bertha Jorkins...this would > be a little tougher to explain without including Voldemort...unless > someone went out to Albania to search for her body. I'm guessing the other deaths would be attributed to Crouch Jr., unless Evil!Fudge is real-- which is very possible. However, if the reality is simply Moron!Fudge, well, he's seen Crouch Jr., a supposedly dead Death Eater, alive. It seemed like he was ready to blame EVERYTHING on Crouch Jr. at the end of GoF. Of course, if he really is evil, then this can all be thrown out the window. -Scott (who's having trouble deciding whether Fudge is truly evil, or just stupid. It's such a fine line . . . ;) From drednort at alphalink.com.au Wed Jan 29 08:33:28 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 19:33:28 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Banter and other SHIP subjects In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E382C88.8413.348BC4@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 50963 On 29 Jan 2003 at 2:33, Jim Ferer jferer at yahoo.com wrote: > "Mean" in the mathematical/statistical sense (the point where half of > the sample universe is above and half below) is not used as an > adjective in my experience, and it's not listed in the Encarta > dictionary as an adjective. "Mean stature" is a phrase which is quite commonly used to describe people of 'average size' in academic documents. It has that precise meaning. That doesn't mean it has to be the meaning Prof Trelawney was using by any means, but it is not at all uncommon to encounter it as an adjective in this sense. http://www.unc.edu/depts/ecology/winterweb/pse/wp06/wp06_table3_12.html is one such example of an academic useage. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From pen at pensnest.co.uk Wed Jan 29 08:38:00 2003 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 08:38:00 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More about the wizarding world and empire... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50964 On Tuesday, Jan 28, 2003, at 23:29 Europe/London, Tom Wall wrote: > > In a secular society, you are just as likely to > have immigrants as you are to have third, fourth, > fifth and so forth generations of immigrants, some > with adapted names, some with their native names. I'm not sure what being secular has to do with it. Could you explain? > I guess what I'm getting at here is that I just > don't see what all this fuss about names is for. > I believe that Rowling simply made a mistake. > > It's just as likely to have Potters, Grangers, > Malfoys, Patils, and Changs in Britain, as it > would be to have Costas, Menendezes, Nkrumes, > Vladoviches and Muhammads. Actually, you are a heck of a lot *more* likely to come across Potters, Grangers, Patils and Changs (I exempt Malfoys from that list) in Britain than to find Costas, Menendezes, Nkrumes, Vladoviches and Muhammeds. Surnames over here, while they are becoming more varied, are still a *lot* less varied than surnames in the USA. I like reading the end credits for American TV programmes - compare the range of names from those to the names at the end of a British programme. What a contrast. > Although frankly (and the reason I said it was a feeble > defense,) I'm not sure that exonerates her... she could > be putting more of an effort in to, y'know, indicate > diversity at the school. > Why? Pen From pen at pensnest.co.uk Wed Jan 29 08:44:55 2003 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 08:44:55 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Class, Was The wizarding world and empire (for Pip) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50965 On Tuesday, Jan 28, 2003, at 18:52 Europe/London, GulPlum wrote: > > I'm not sure when in UK terminology, having a non working-class job > defined one as middle class. I mean, who would actually consider our > own esteemed Deputy PM John "Two Jags" Prescott" as Middle Class? :-) > > That Arthur Weasley has a determinedly middle-class job does not make > him middle class. Of course it does. How else is 'middle class' defined? Well. Harumph. Perhaps I'm being a bit simplistic there. 'Middle class' may also be defined by what you do, where you live, your aspirations etc. (Jilly Cooper's book 'Class', though somewhat out of date, gives very clear pictures of class in England - the upper class, who do as they please and don't care what anyone thinks, the various divisions of the middle class [my favourite is Jen Teale, with her net curtains and serviettes], the working class. I recommend it to anyone wanting an informal but witty insight into the matter of class.) Actually, if anything I think the Weasleys may be upper class, but come down in the world a bit. It makes more sense, to me, to think of Arthur as an aristocrat forced by circumstance to take a (middle class) job, than to think of him as 'working poor'. His lack of wealth really doesn't define his class. As for 'Two Jags' Preston, I'm afraid he is indeed middle class. Rather in the Jen Teale bracket, unlike the Blairs who are very much upper middles, but there nonetheless. I used to work with a man who insisted loudly that he was working class - but who had been through public school and was currently employed in an administrative job (dignified with the title of manager, even). He listened to jazz, read Dickens and Anthony Burgess for pleasure... In fact, as far as I could discern, the only thing working class about him was his insistence that he belonged in that bracket. [Hasty disclaimer: it's not that working class people cannot enjoy jazz or Anthony Burgess, but would such leisure pursuits be part of anyone's definition of 'working class'?] No: HPFGUIDX 50966 Steve wrote: > How common is it for someone to be called 'Bill' in the UK? In the US, > Bill is frequently short for William. But I notice that Prince William > is called Will, while Prince Henry is called Harry. > > So again, I'm wondering how common the nickname 'Bill' is in the UK. > If it is somewhat common that would lead us to think that Bill's name > is Williamm. If it is very uncommon then we could conclude that Bill > had an unusual name that lent itself well to the nickname Bill. > > Do we have a resident authority who could help us out here? And Gulplum replied: "Bill" is definitely more common than "Will", at least in the general population (the Royal Family is every so slightly a case apart; Prince Will is a moniker he was given by the press as soon as he was born; they quite possibly thought that "Bill" sounded a bit too common). "Will" is probably less prevalent as an abbreviation for William in the UK than it is in the US. For every Bill Clinton, there's a Will Smith; for every Bill Paxman there's a Will Shatner (though admittedly only his friends call him that; ordinary mortals call him William). I'm trying to think of famous British Williams who go by "Will" of their own choice, and to be perfectly honest the only one I can think of right now is Will Young. I can think of lots of Bills, though: Bill Ashton and Bill Treacher, for starters. And slightly facetiously, The (Old) Bill. :-) Yes, I'm aware that people outside the UK won't have heard of any of them, and I suspect are wondering what The Old Bill means. :-) Me: I've always heard Prince William's nickname as Wills, not Will. Small difference, but a mere mortal would *never* have their name abbreviated to Wills, because it is connected with Prince William and he alone in people's minds. However, as you say, GulPlum, Wills is a moniker from the press, rather than his family - I'd imagine Charles probably always calls him "son" (he strikes you as the type, doesn't he? :) ) and the Queen calls him William. In speeches I've heard her made, she calls him William, but calls Henry "Harry" so I'd imagine that those are the names they receive at home. Now, as for the rest of us plebs! It's funny you should say "Bill" is more common here than "Will" - personally I would have said it was the other way around. But I think your examples (Bill Treacher vs. Will Young) explain why. William was a very common name about a hundred years ago, but has decreased in popularity slowly, coming to a low in about the seventies-ish, I'd say. So today, a lot of the Williams you meet are 50+ (or so has been my association) and they receive the old-fashioned nickname of "Bill", particularly in my area (I'm an 18yr old girl from Lancashire - that's the northern bit, I sound like Neville does in the movie :) ). However, I'd say I know about five or six lads my own age called William, and all their names are abbreviated to "Will". Why? Because Will Young, Will Smith, etc are all young role models. "Will" is now the stylish abbreviation - you'd NEVER catch a boy my age who used "Bill", any more than you'd catch a woman in her fifties using the abbreviation "Caz" for "Caroline". OK, that's a bad example, but I can't think of any other names - it's way too early to engage my brain ~g~ And as for the Old Bill - where the hell did that name even come from anyway? LOL! (It means the police, for those of you currently scratching your heads!) Susan ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "Help me Jebus!" --Homer Simpson "Shame on you! Ugly baby judges you!" --Ross Geller "Oh yeah, and did I mention I've got a baby?" --Stuart Alan Jones "You know, I telephoned my grandparents the other day, and my grandfather said to me, 'We saw your movie.' 'Which one?' I said, and he shouted, 'Betty, what was the name of that movie I didn't like?'" --Brad Pitt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From suzloua at hotmail.com Wed Jan 29 09:31:50 2003 From: suzloua at hotmail.com (Susan Atherton) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 09:31:50 -0000 Subject: Oops! Dumbledore did it again Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50967 Tom Wall wrote: If you think about it, from a certain standpoint, Dumbledore is really quite a loose cannon - I mean, he hires giants, he hires werewolves, he advises contacting the giants, he advises removing the dementors from Azkaban, he seems to openly favor Harry and his friends (now, we know that Harry and his friends act valiantly, but to an outsider... not so clear), he's consorting with a known criminal (*we* know that Sirius is innocent, but the WW doesn't... if you think about it, it's quite unorthodox), he helped Buckbeak to escape, actually defying the MoM, and not only that, but he encouraged *students* to defy the MoM by helping Buckbeak AND Sirius to escape. He also (knowing that parents probably wouldn't like this) announces to everyone at the final banquet of the year that it was Voldemort who killed Cedric. Me: I think the fact that Dumbledore has made so many mistakes (I won't list them all here, but Tom's list was great!) is clear to us when we examine the text, but Harry does not see it that way. To Harry, Dumbledore is everything that is good in the world, and he can never be anything else - unlike, say, Sirius or Lupin, who he has seen other sides to. I think this is similar to how young children see their parents as the epitome of goodness and kindness and love; they see them haloed with flame and able to solve any problem. If there is anything going wrong in their life, from school to friends to illness (I mean a cold, not cancer or anything) their mum and dad can make it better again. This is how Harry sees Dumbledore. However, as JKR has said, the series is growing and maturing with Harry. I think that over time, Harry will begin to see, as we all did when we got to about sixteen or seventeen, that although your parents love you, they aren't superhuman. They aren't perfect. They can't solve every problem, they can't move every mountain, and they can't protect you from every harm. Parents are people, just like you and I, and they make mistakes. I think that Harry may get a bit of a rude awakening to this when Dumbledore makes an error that puts someone's life at risk (well, again - all things considered he's done that multiple times already) - possibly Ron or Hermione? Or even Sirius - after all, the people Harry loves best are Dumbledore, Ron and Hermione, Sirius, and possibly Mrs Weasley. As Sheryl said, I fully believe Dumbledore is good, and does everything with best intent. I just think that Harry needs to remove him from his pedestal slightly, and accept that DD is not perfect - he's just a person, like Harry himself. Susan who will cry if Sirius or Lupin die because Dumbledore made a boo-boo ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "Help me Jebus!" --Homer Simpson "Shame on you! Ugly baby judges you!" --Ross Geller "Oh yeah, and did I mention I've got a baby?" --Stuart Alan Jones "You know, I telephoned my grandparents the other day, and my grandfather said to me, 'We saw your movie.' 'Which one?' I said, and he shouted, 'Betty, what was the name of that movie I didn't like?'" --Brad Pitt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lupinesque at yahoo.com Wed Jan 29 09:41:14 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 09:41:14 -0000 Subject: A midget in glasses, was SHIP Banter and SHIP subjects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50968 Erica wrote: > mean(3) adj. > > Occupying a middle or intermediate position between two extremes. > Intermediate in size, extent, quality, time, or degree; medium. Excellent documentation, Erica! Still, Ron's joke would appear to mean that he, and JKR, thought "mean stature" meant "lack of height" in this context. Which, compared to Ron, Harry certainly has. I could almost let that stand in for my favorite line; it's not so much the line itself as Ron's imitation of Trelawney. However, I'll go with another Trelawney-inspired Ron line that always leaves me helpless no matter how many times I read it: "And on Wednesday, I think I'll come off worst in a fight." "Aaah, I was going to have a fight. OK, I'll lose a bet." "Yeah, you'll be betting I win my fight . . ." Amy Z From marie_mouse at hotmail.com Wed Jan 29 09:05:25 2003 From: marie_mouse at hotmail.com (Marie Jadewalker ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 09:05:25 -0000 Subject: Thoughts on Dumbledore letting Voldemort into the school In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50969 Hi! The points raised in this thread relate to an idea that's been bouncing around in my head for about a week. I think that Magic Dishwasher is a really interesting theory, but I don't pretend to have read all the posts about it, so if this has been suggested and discredited before, please forgive me. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Melody " wrote: > Well that is a bit unfair. Quirrell did an awful job hiding his > changed status. Wearing a big purple turban. Oh yeah. *That* is > conspicuous. Wore garlic to hide the smell. Adopted a stutter. > Hmm...Dumbledore is a terrible spymaster if he missed all that. > Terrible indeed. I agree. Quirrell wasn't exactly the height of discretion, and Dumbledore probably noticed. I also wonder if Hagrid might have mentioned seeing Professor Quirrell in Diagon Alley when he took Harry school supply shopping -- that's conjecture of course, but possible. Christopher said: > >1) We know the Quirrell talked to Snape (who, as we learn from book > > 4, was a DE and later a spy). Could part of the idea be to allow > > Snape a chance to get back into Voldemort's good graces? >Melody replied: > Yes I think it can be. Snape's words are vague enough there to make > us believe he may still be on Voldie's side, so it may of convinced > Voldemort. Me: That is one possibility -- needing to maintain Snape's supposed loyalty to the Death Eaters. But even if Quirrellmort was convinced by this (which I agree with Melody that he probably was not), it raises another point. Since, as we learn in GOF, Dumbledore trusts Snape and his abilities to be a spy, I don't think it's likely that Snape would have hidden his knowledge that Quirrell was going after the Stone. (I suppose we could argue that this mistake is what Snape did with his "first chance," but Snape being a former Death Eater seams a lot more likely for that.) I don't know whether Snape knew Voldemort was actually cohabitating with Quirrell, but he certainly knew who Quirrell was working for -- in which case, Dumbledore must have known. Actually, I will assume that they knew Quirrell was Quirrellmort, since it does not seem like he did a brilliant job of hiding it from Dumbledore and Snape ? they would not have been duped into believing Snape was the evil one since they at least know his "true" allegiance. Christopher again: > >3) could Dumbledore have been hoping that if Harry touched > > Voldemort, it would kill him for good? Therefore, he want to a > > great deal of trouble to get the two foes together in an > > all-or-nothing situation and keep them away from the rest of the > > school, just in case. > Melody: > Yes! That is my theory. Did you just read my previous post? No > not that one, the one about the stone. Yes, that one. I completely > believe Dumbledore knows Quirrel is Quirrelmort. I also believe > that Dumbledore is trying to bring about Voldemort's downfall, and > the only thing that has worked on Voldie so far is Harry. So > therefore, Dumbledore is trying to orchestra the plan to bring them > together, away from the other school kids that cannot blister evil > people with their hands, and see if Voldie finally dies. > > Unfortunately, he does not, but Dumbledore is there to save Harry. > How convenient really. > > So, I say....Dumbledore had Voldemort right where he wants him. He > had him under watch and baited. Right where you want your enemy > really. Voldemort was no real threat to the students. I guess he > could of caused some problems, but that would blow his "cover". > Voldie was mind-bent on the stone. Dumbledore knew this. > Dumbledore used this. Yes, it was a bit of an elaborate plan, but > not as much as in the main of MD, and I have not problem making > those leaps. > > Melody I absolutely agree that Dumbledore could be thinking that it's prudent to keep your enemies close to you. I also agree that he wants to set up a confrontation between Harry and Voldemort -- in a situation where he can intervene if necessary. (I don't know if he's aware that Voldemort can't touch Harry before the incident, but I agree that since Harry worked once before, testing their limits against each other might be a good idea.) However, my theory has a slight twist. I think they destroyed the Stone much earlier in the year. At the end, when Dumbledore is telling Harry that the Stone was destroyed, here's the exchange, beginning with Dumbledore (long quote for context): ------------------------------------------------------------------ "I feared I might be too late." "You nearly were, I couldn't have kept him off the Stone much longer-" "Not the Stone, boy, you -- the effort involved nearly killed you. For one terrible moment there, I was afraid it had. As for the Stone, it has been destroyed." "Destroyed?" said Harry blankly. "But your friend -- Nicolas Flamel-" "Oh, you know about Nicolas?" said Dumbledore, sounding quite delighted. "You *did* do the thing properly, didn't you? Well, Nicolas and I have had a little chat, and agreed it's all for the best." "But that means he and his wife will die, won't they?" "They have enough Elixir stored to set their affairs in order and then, yes, they will die." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- That's p 369 in my American paperback edition. First of all, Dumbledore never tells us *when* the Stone was destroyed, which is the crux of my theory. I think my impression that this destruction hasn't *just* happens has to do with verb tenses, so forgive me if that's unpleasant for anyone . Dumbledore says the stone "has been destroyed" and that "Nicolas and I have had a little chat." According to my grammar book, the former is in present perfect progressive tense, and the latter is in the past perfect aspect, (I know different books have different names for these designations, but that's not the point) both of which associate things that happened in the past to something at a later (in this case current) time. So all we really know is that the chat and the destruction happened prior to Dumbledore's chat with Harry, and that Nicolas is presumably still alive at that time. So why would they have destroyed the Stone, and why would Nicolas still be around if they had destroyed it early in the year? The second question is actually easier -- it might have taken quite some time for Nicolas to *get* his affairs in order, so he might have had quite a bit of Elixir of Life stored up. That cache of the Elixir wouldn't be a threat if Dumbledore *knew* that Voldemort was busily occupied at Hogwarts -- supposedly after the "grand prize" of the Stone itself. Now, why destroy the stone? Well, we know Harry and Hagrid knew about the attempted break in to the Gringotts vault where the Stone had been, so it's pretty safe to assume that Dumbledore (a man who reads Muggle Newspapers in GOF) knew this as well. For that matter, there was some reason he had Hagrid get the "You-know-what" out of the vault in the first place. So they knew the Stone could be used by Voldemort, and after the break-in, they knew for sure that someone was making a serious effort to get it. (And if Hagrid mentioned Quirrell being around and/or Dumbledore already suspected him, he probably has a prime suspect.) So it's possible that Dumbledore decided after this attempt that keeping the Stone was too big a liability, so he chatted with Nicolas and destroyed it around the beginning of the school year. Alternately, after Halloween when Snape had seen Quirrellmort trying to get at Fluffy (and, I assume, dutifully reported that to Dumbledore) Dumbledore came to the same conclusion -- after two attempts, even Hogwarts wasn't safe. Either way, the Stone was destroyed by November at the latest by this theory -- and they probably put a fake Stone in its place. Why the secrecy? Two reasons. While Quirrellmort is at Hogwarts, he's contained. He's not causing other mischief when he's perusing the Stone ? which he seemed to do with single-minded drive, in keeping with his quest for immortality. With the real Stone destroyed, there is minimal risk since even if he were to get the Fake Stone, it would do him no good. So Dumbledore can observe his activities and keep him occupied at a fool's errand for quite a while ? both of which are good for Spymaster!Dumbledore. (Although this does mean Dumbledore can't prevent Voldemort from killing Unicorns, which disturbs me a little.) There's a second benefit too: Harry. Harry may well be special; Voldie couldn't kill him as a baby and there may even be an Heir of Gryffindor prophecy of some sort. Given this, I see a trend that Harry is being groomed for an eventual showdown with Voldemort. The encounters they have in the early books are tests of a sort. This one particularly ? we don't know how soon Dumbledore got there. (For that matter, since he says he can be invisible without a cloak, he could have been there all the time ? pure speculation, I know.) The more often Harry deals with Voldemort in a weakened state, the more prepared Harry will be for the final battle ? and the more Voldemort will fear Harry. So I think it's very possible that Dumbledore wanted to give Harry a chance to battle Voldemort this way. Others have pointed out that the "tasks" guarding the Stone seemed to be tailored to the skills of Harry and his friends. If the Stone were a fake, then maybe these obstacles were more for the kids than for actual safety measures. (I wonder, could a grown wizard have done a counter charm on the Chess set? Accacioed the flying key? Done a freezing charm on the flames? Surely Devil's Snare wasn't much of an obstacle, nor was Fluffy if you knew how to handle him. For that matter, Harry and Ron had already gotten the best of one Mountain Troll. And how wise is it to supply someone with brooms when they're trying to steal something and make a quick getaway?) If they were set up more for Harry's benefit than to actually guard the Stone, they (a) made it *look* like there was something worth guarding and (b) reinforced the idea of teamwork to Harry. Added to this we have the invisibility cloak ? which we know Dumbledore sent Harry ? and the Mirror of Erised. Although it's not absolutely pivotal to this theory, I think Dumbledore gained something else by having Harry learn to use the mirror. As I said above, I think Harry is special. But there are also disturbing similarities between him and young Tom Riddle (as Riddle points out in COS). We found out in GOF that Mr. Ollivander had owled Dumbledore about Harry's wand right away, which adds to the coincidences. It's even possible (though speculative) that the Sorting Hat told Dumbledore how well Harry could have done in Slytherin. Given all of that, Dumbledore might have a vested interest in knowing Harry's deepest Desire. He might want to re- assure himself that Harry isn't so ambitious that he's likely to become another Voldemort; Harry's desire to know his parents is mostly reassuring. Then the mirror has the added benefit of making the Stone seem more protected to Harry (the Brilliant idea). Why hide all of this from Harry? Well, we know that whatever reason Voldemort had for coming after Harry, Dumbledore didn't think Harry was ready to hear it yet at 11. If Dumbledore did, in fact, set Harry up for this encounter that put Harry's life in considerable danger, he's not likely to admit that at this point when he doesn't think Harry is able to handle things about his own past. At this point it is probably considered more important for Harry to gain experience, magical skills, and some amount of trust in authority than for him to know the whole story ? though the lines from Book 5 may mean Dumbledore later reconsiders this. Thanks for letting me babble about my little pet theory, and apologies again if it has been mentioned before. Basically it boils down to: Dumbledore had the Sorcerer's Stone destroyed early on during Harry's first year because it was too dangerous. He made a fake to keep Voldemort occupied and surrounded it with "obstacles" to both emphasize that it was important (to Voldemort) and challenge Harry and his friends. From this Dumbledore gained delaying Voldemort's quest for immortality and domination and a clearer view on Harry's potential. Marie From hp at plum.cream.org Wed Jan 29 10:50:41 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 10:50:41 -0000 Subject: Names (wizarding world and empire) In-Reply-To: <000801c2c75d$50234590$9290c318@amy9kgdax8rjp4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50970 Amy Miller wrote: > I think that "we Yanks" forget that other cultures do not encourage > the "melting pot" theory of social structure. Great Britain still > has royalty, and probably will for a long time. I'm not sure what being a monarchy has got to do with whether or not Britain has a melting pot social structure, and I'm curious why anyone would make the connection. As it happens, I feel that in day-to-day terms, we're a better integrated society than most. Being a small island and everyone having to live in close proximity to each other (something Americans don't seem to appreciate very often is that we have approx. one sixth the population of the USA living on approx. one fortieth the territory) forces more contact between cultures. Sure, some communities are (voluntarily) more ghettoised than others and some don't participate in general social or political life as much as others, and some areas of the country or individual cities are "whiter" than others, but generally speaking it's rare that people go to school or work with people of only one race. For instance, I can count within a ten-minute walking radius of my home a mosque, two Catholic churches, two Church of England churches, a synagogue, a Sikh temple, a Hindu temple, a Buddhist temple and a couple of Baptist churches. Perhaps interestingly, partially because its base is more multi-ethnic than most religions, I know that the Catholic churches between them have services conducted in English, Vietnamese, Polish and French for the sizeable communities in the area of those natonalities. Some services are even multi-lingual with elements provided by each community. Or on another level and a different example, the dental practice I attend has two Indian, one Vietnamese, one Italian, one Polish and a couple of black dentists (one Jamaican and one Nigerian) all working together and it's not as if they each only serve patients of their own ethnicity (my own dentist is the Vietnamese one). Sure, this particular area is more mixed than most in Britain, but it's a fairly good example of life in a large city. > It might not be "acceptable" to put an Anglicized first name with > an ethnic surname in their culture. In the USA we do this all the > time, because we want to be accepted, to be like everyone else. I > don't think that JKR's omission of ethnic names is a lack > of "political correctness." It's possible that people in Great > Britain don't name their children anything they like, but what they > are expected to name them. It's very, very varied, and is down to individual familes. Although it's true that most Indian families, for instance, give their children Indian names, it's by no means universal. Besides, this country has been multi-ethnic for long enough, and the English language is flexible enough, to accept a lot of non-traditional names into the mainstream. As far as black ethnic names go, we should bear in mind that most black people in Britain came here from the Caribbean, and thus do not have African names or surnames. There isn't a huge immigrant community from African countries anyway (for colonial reasons, black African immigrants tend to gravitate towards France rather than the UK), and those who are here are mainly from Ghana or Nigeria. Even so, most black immigrants to Britain tend to be Christians of one denomination or another, and so for religious rather than ethnic reasons, are likely to have first names which may be considered "European", although again this far from universal. Purely on a probability basis, Angelina Johnson and Dean Thomas are more than likely to have Caribbean forebears, and thus it would be normal for them to have Europeanised names (yes, thanks to the Empire and slavery!) rather than ethnically African ones. I really don't see what all the bother is about. From lupinesque at yahoo.com Wed Jan 29 11:48:41 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 11:48:41 -0000 Subject: Names (wizarding world and empire) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50971 Richard wrote: > Purely on a probability basis, Angelina Johnson and Dean Thomas are > more than likely to have Caribbean forebears, and thus it would be > normal for them to have Europeanised names (yes, thanks to the Empire > and slavery!) rather than ethnically African ones. I really don't see > what all the bother is about. No bother--but you just upheld Ebony's original assertion that the wizarding world, alongside the Muggle world, had Empire and slavery. *Unless* Angelina and Dean are both Muggle-born, in which case all bets are off; however, there are still no African or native Caribbean names showing up at Hogwarts, suggesting that wizards follow largely the same migration patterns as Muggles. The question to my mind is not whether JKR or the contemporary wizarding world is racist, but whether the WW had Empire, slavery, colonialization, etc. in its past. The evidence of names indicates yes, as you have just attested. Amy Z From Ali at zymurgy.org Wed Jan 29 11:50:26 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 11:50:26 -0000 Subject: Racial Makeup in the Potterverse Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50972 Perhaps this is an over simplification, but my understanding of the recent thread re empire etc, is that there is a cultural divide over JKR's repressentation of ethnicity in the Potterverse. Whilst we Brits defend JKR as showing "how it is", other readers think that JKR missed out by not "showing how it should be". In Harry's class, 25% of the named Gryffindor's belong to an ethnic minority group. In Britain as a whole, the figure is c.8.8%, and roughly 11% for children. This indicates to me that JKR has attempted to emphasise racial diversity. Should she portray black children with African names when most of the black kids in Britain are of West Indian extraction? Why is it racist to suggest that the likes of Angelina Johnson and Dean Thomas are Muggle-Born ? making them somehow outsiders to Purebloods? As Eloise said would witches and wizards have wished to immigrate to Britain? In fact, you could argue that there are less likely to be wizards and witches from our ethnic minorities, as perhaps only Muggles would have migrated. In terms of the under-representation of wizards in the MoM, Hogwarts staff etc, could this not be answered in part by the longevity of wizards, and the the tendency to have older more experienced people in positions of power? As immigration on a serious scale has only occurred in the last 50 years, would you expect this to have filtered through to the WW where Dumbledore is still working aged 150, and immigrants have tended to be young and able-bodied? I do understand the arguments re showing a diverse range of races at all levels, but feel that JKR is probably damned if she does, and damned if she doesn't. JKR is a product of post-Imperial Britain. IMHO I do not believe that that makes her personally guilty of racism, but guilty of showing a snapshot of how ethnicity is viewed in Britain at the moment. It is unfortunately true that we have some very real problems with racism, and inability of some groups to enter certain professions etc etc. Is JKR wrong to reflect this, or must she show some kind of Utopia? Ali From hp at plum.cream.org Wed Jan 29 12:04:53 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 12:04:53 -0000 Subject: Bill Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50973 Susan Atherton wrote: > However, I'd say I know about five or six lads my own age called > William, and all their names are abbreviated to "Will". Why? > Because Will Young, Will Smith, etc are all young role > models. "Will" is now the stylish abbreviation - you'd NEVER catch > a boy my age who used "Bill", any more than you'd catch a woman in > her fifties using the abbreviation "Caz" for "Caroline". OK, that's > a bad example, but I can't think of any other names - it's way too > early to engage my brain ~g~ Absolutely. I had intended but forgot to mention in my previous message that nicknames or abbreviations of names have fashions, and role models have a large part to play in this. In my 40 years, the popularity around me of the various possible abbreviations of my own name has changed several times, between Dick, Dickie, Rick, Ricky and others (personally, I prefer and exclusively use the full version about myself, but will respond to Rick or Rich which a few of my friends use; the others I hate and ignore people who use them about me). The point, though, regarding Bill Weasley, is that by whatever Potterverse chronology one wishes to follow, he grew up in the 70s/80s, at which time I can't think of any big name Wills who could have served as role models. William certainly wasn't a particularly popular name then, but even so anyone who called themselves "Bill" would have been assumed to be a William, and conversely, most Williams would have called themselves Bill. > And as for the Old Bill - where the hell did that name even come > from anyway? LOL! (It means the police, for those of you currently > scratching your heads!) Nobody knows for sure, but as with many things in life, the best person to ask is a policeman...: http://www.met.police.uk/history/oldbill.htm -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who seems to be thinking a lot about names today From eloiseherisson at aol.com Wed Jan 29 12:16:27 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 07:16:27 EST Subject: More about the wizarding world and empire... Message-ID: <97.334cac83.2b69201b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50974 Tom: >I guess what I'm getting at here is that I just >don't see what all this fuss about names is for. >I believe that Rowling simply made a mistake. Eloise: The fuss about names, if I understand things correctly, stems from Ebony's assertion that the black characters we know of having what sound like West-Indian names, rather than African names is indicative that there was a British Wizarding Empire. I, for one, dispute that argument. Tom: >It's just as likely to have Potters, Grangers, >Malfoys, Patils, and Changs in Britain, as it >would be to have Costas, Menendezes, Nkrumes, >Vladoviches and Muhammads. Eloise: Far, far more likely to have the former, as Pen pointed out, with the possible exception of the last name. Tom: >I think Ebony's point regarding Rowling as a >product of the post-colonial period, along with >that great quote from Zipes, is simply that >Rowling, for all of her good intentions and attempts >to divert our attention from muggle problems and onto >parallel wizard problems, Eloise: She is dealing with RL problems by metaphor, not simply trying to divert attention. IMHO. These are not books about RL racism; if they were, they would not be set in a school of witchcraft and wizardry. They *are* books which deal with the theme of prejudice, however. Tom: >is still missing some >key points. And one of those, is that since Britain >has all kinds of people, it should have all kinds >of names, and if it did, then we'd be seeing more >of those kinds of names. Eloise: Britain *should have* and does, though as I have pointed out, not often in prominent office. For all sorts of reasons (no, some of them are not very creditable). And although we have a diverse ethnic mix and some areas with high concentrations of ethnic minorities, overall, ethnic minorities are still very much minorities in terms of number. In 1991, the population of the UK was 56, 206,000. Of these, 53,062,000 were white, 929,000 were black. So three black students out of 1000 seems a fairly good proportion. And touching on your later point, this is three students out of the very small proportion of Hogwarts students whom we actually meet. Now you could argue that at least one of these should have an African name, but as I have pointed out before, this assumes, a) that there is some reason why African *wizards* should want to settle in the UK and b) that their children go to Hogwarts, rather than African schools of magic as you and I have both suggested they might. You see, *my* impression of the WW is that the different wizarding nations tend to be rather isolated. That things like the Triwizard and Percy's department are efforts to bring together different wizarding cultures who are quite happy to keep themselves to themselves and who mutually don't understand each other very well. After all (a very minor canon) it was the Bulgarian minister who though it was very funny to pretend not to be able to communicate. That, as in real life, sport is the only field where many people actively come face to face with other cultures. Tom: >One defense pops into my mind, although it is a >feeble one, to be sure. Rowling said in an interview >that Hogwarts had roughly one thousand students. And >we've not even met five percent of them all. So there >very well may be a Nkrume at Hogwarts that we just >haven't encountered yet. > >Although frankly (and the reason I said it was a feeble >defense,) I'm not sure that exonerates her... she could >be putting more of an effort in to, y'know, indicate >diversity at the school. Eloise: What you seem to be asking for is that the ethnic mix at Hogwarts should be seen to be even greater than the ethnic mix of the population as a whole. As Pen asked, why? *Should* she be going out of her way to point out *all* the students from ethnic minorities? Isn't it a little discriminatory to mention them simply because of their race? The fact that we have already seen a larger number of black students than ones whose ethnic origins lie in the Indian subcontinent (in a reversal of the RL situation), together with the lack of mention of Dean's ethnicity in the UK original leads me to the inevitable suspicion that JKR has been pushed in the direction of publishing what it is perceived to be acceptable from the US viewpoint. If we did extrapolate from the numbers of ethnic minority students of whom we know, given the small proprtion of Hogwarts students we have met, we should find that they already form a much higher proportion than we would find in the general population. Amy: >I think that "we Yanks" forget that other cultures do not encourage the "melting pot" >theory of social structure. >Great Britain still has royalty, and probably will for a long time. It might not be >"acceptable" to put an > Anglicized first name with an ethnic surname in their culture. In the USA we do this >all the time, >because we want to be accepted, to be like everyone else. I don't think that JKR's >omission of ethnic >names is a lack of "political correctness." It's possible that people in Great Britain >don't name their >children anything they like, but what they are expected to name them. Eloise: I think that as Pip has pointed out, many people with African surnames do in fact have European forenames. Many of them are Christian, for a start and therefore do literally have Christian names (as we often call forenames). I can asure you that people in the UK name their children whatever they like (within the constraints of their own cultural naming traditions, where these exist). ~Eloise From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Jan 29 12:31:46 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 12:31:46 -0000 Subject: More about the wizarding world and empire... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50975 Ebony " wrote: > "I also think it's significant that the other nonwhite characters > that > we see being educated at Hogwarts represent nations that England > either conquered completely (Ireland, India, etc.) or had some sort > of favored nation status with (China--although Hong Kong was under > British control for a long time, yet? Don't know the history > completely there.) If there was no empire in the history of JKR's > wizarding world, then why are they being educated in Britain? > Because Hogwarts is the best school in the world? If so, then *why* > is Hogwarts the best, and not another place where magic likely has > been practiced far longer (China, Egypt, etc.) than in either Britain > or Europe?" > > I'm still waiting here. :-D Where are the historians? I'm a > literary scholar, and I know there are people far more versed in > British imperial history here. Chiming in late to an interesting discussion here. I believe in essence Ebony is right on this point. The spelling of Cho's name does not reflect the Pinyin used by the PRC, but is IMO consistent with a Hong Kong, Malaysia or Singapore origin. We don't know for sure the ethnic origin of her or the Patil twins, but I would think the presumption is that they reflect old imperial connections, as does Seamus. My understanding of the (British) WW generally is that it is culturally almost identical to that of muggle Britain, despite the anachronistic trappings. Hence empire does hang over it as much as over the rest of us. (**Sighs for the day when the UK can abandon the fantasy of its UN Security Council membership**). Whether JKR's backstory for the WW includes wizarding participation in the imperial venture, I can't say, but note that the 'muggle- born' argument cuts both ways: if a wizard was born to Muggle Britons in 19th century India, what cultural influences would he have brought to the indigenous British WW? David From kristen at sanderson-web.com Wed Jan 29 13:12:00 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (gkjpo ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 13:12:00 -0000 Subject: Harry Will Be Accused and Locked up in Azkaban/ His Escape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50976 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "happybean98 " wrote: > Dumbledore, Sirius AND Lupin would have to be completely discredited > and/or dead for this theory to even be plausible." > > Jim: > One of Harry's defenders you name is under a worse than death sentence > and another one is of a despised and distrusted group, werewolves. > They have negative credibility in the eyes of the wizard world. > Dumbledore remains a strong defender, but he now has the enmity of the > Minster of Magic. How independent is the wizard judiciary? We might > find out. > > Kathleen: > I agree with Jim 100% about Sirius and Lupin. As for Dumbledore, I > am certain he will be removed somehow the moment Cornelius Fudge > finds out from Rita Skeeter that he is harboring Sirius Black.. Any > defense Dumbledore could give would be weakened if not annihilated by > this turn of events. > Kristen again: I think you are underestimating the good side (I thought we weren't supposed to underestimate the dark side! :). I know very well that Lupin and Sirius are fully discredited. However, they are still extremely powerful wizards and neither would allow Harry to come to harm. Sirius has the advantage that no one knows where he is. At the end of Gof, Dumbledore sends Bill on a mission to Arthur Weasley to round up everyone who is on his side. We are led to believe that this will be either a considerable number, or a small number of very smart and talented wizards. So, actually, I add to my above statement that Dumbledore, Sirius, Lupin and the Weasley family would all have to be dead (I leave out the disredited because his crew obviously cares more about what is ultimately right than what will make them look good), to allow Harry to go to Azkaban. > Kathleen: > Again, I don't think Dumbledore's help will be enough. I am sure > Dumbledore would try to help out in the trial...but will that be > enough? Couldn't the MoM point out that Dumbledore once gave > witness that Sirius Black was the Potter's secret keeper, and now > Dumbledore is harboring him? That Dumbledore claims to be protecting > Harry from Black, yet he brings Sirius Black into the same room as > Harry?. I think Dumbledore will be the one sent to St. Mungo's. His > actions appear so contradictory. Fudge implied at the end of GoF > that Dumbledore was crazy for believing Harry so easily. Kristen again: However, Fudge still lets Lupin off the hook based soley on Dumbledore's word. This makes Fudge culpable in any trial for Dumbledore. Even for Evil!Fudge to do this doesn't seem to be useful to me - this smacks more of Moron!Fudge (I love that one, Scott). Remember too that the entire wizard world believes Harry to be the boy who saved them from Voldemort in the first place. Trying to turn that tide would take a major PR campaign and Rita - an illegal animagi and Lucius - a rich man probably hated by many of the lower class and who was also fired as a school govenor would have a tough time to prove this. If Evil!Fudge were to help, he would have to make a really good case to support this without looking evil and I personally think he's too much of a moron to pull this off. > Kathleen: > However, at the end of GoF > we see that a shift is taking place regarding how Harry is seen by > the WW. Fudge, Diggory, and of course Lucius Malfoy have held > suspicions against him. It sounds to me as though Fudge is getting > tired of babysitting Harry and would be grateful to be rid of him. > Fudge is only worried about how he is percieved by the WW, and > especially the MoM. His actions will flow from his desire to do what > the MoM wants him to do. If that means protecting Harry one day and > locking him up the next day....so be it. Kristen again: I don't see how Fudge, Diggory and Malfoy represent the majority of the WW. Diggory is known to be hotheaded and he would be countered by Arthur Weasly at the MoM who knows pretty much everyone. Malfoy as I said cannot possibly be a hero to the wizarding community. He may have a lot of influence in higher circles, but to do anything to Harry would take a lot. Now, if you want to say that Dumbledore would be put on trial (is this what Tom suggested? I snipped his words too soon). That I might believe. He would probably allow himself to go through the trial and possibly even Azkaban (since he could probably still wield influence from there). Also, interestingly, since Fawkes strikes fear in the evil and weak of heart, could he show up at Azkaban and take care of the Dementors? As I have stated before, I wonder if Harry could do some major magic with Fawkes' whole self instead of the one feather he uses in his wand. We know that a phoenix is the theme of this book, so I wonder if we'll find out. Kristen I'll admit that I don't want to see a courtroom drama book. There are other books/authors I would read if I wanted to read that. From lennyb2002 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 29 11:37:17 2003 From: lennyb2002 at yahoo.com (lennyb2002 ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 11:37:17 -0000 Subject: Speculation on back story of wiz clans DD/Voldemort Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50977 Hello! I'm trying to post this. It's a speculation on what we might see in the upcoming books regarding the backstory. I find the general idea interesting, but with cloudy facts, and heavy speculation, some might consider it fan fic. With that in mind, if I've stumbled over a stated fact in the cannon, please call it, and of course, discussion and critiques are encouraged. So, here's the beginning of my hypothesis regarding backstory: I cannot recall any mention of an heir to Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw, only heirs for Gryffindor and Slytherin. Of 4 leading families, seemingly, only 2 are important. Why? Surely this isn't a flaw in Harry's 'viewpoint' of failing to ever hear of other heirs. It seems the only thing we do know about Rowena Ravenclaw and Helga Hufflepuff is that they are women. Gryffindor and Slytherin are men. Is it possible that the courtship of these leading families not only resulted in Hogwarts, but in marriage? Arranged marriage was very prominent in order to combine wealth and property. Thus, it seems plausible that Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff merged into a 'super family' with Slytherin and Gryffindor. In other words, Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff heirs are the the same as the heir of Gryffindor and Slytherin. Regarding Slytherin, he left Hogwarts after a disagreement regarding purebloods. He seals his chamber and leaves. Yet of the 4 founders, Slytherin disagreed only with Gryffindor. Each of the four had their own, distinct house making them assumably equal in say. This would render delegation next to impossible as plenty of votes would result in 2-2 stalemates. Perhaps it is agreed somehow that Godric is the supreme power of the school and can therefore overule Slytherin's segragational demands. Since Gryffindor owns the sorting hat, it is unlikely Gryffindor could be undisputedly named 'tiebreaker'. Slytherin leaves because he cannot convince Godric to outlaw mudbloods. I say that Slytherin and Godric share a singular vote. There are three thrones in this wizard world, yet four wizards with claims. Therefore, a majority/democratic vote can be achieved when only three votes are possible. The third vote is decided by Gryffindor, yet the seat is held by Gryffindor and Slytherin. Now, to account for the validity of this idea. Simply put, history repeats itself. As Godric and Salazar share a birthright, so do Harry and Voldemort. Both have opened the chamber of secrets, meaning essentially, two people are the heir of the supposedly singular birthright. So.... Godric Gryffindor is the first born of a female wizard. However, the father is a muggle and (drawing comparison to Tom Riddle's parents). Anyway, the woman produces another child-Salazar, this time with a 'pure blood'. Sharing the same mother, Salazar perhaps claims himself first born via 'pure blood'. Blood aside, Salazar has a claim-he is the first born albeit from a second father. The Gryffyndor/Slytherin brotherhood might be compared with (I believe) the story of Jacob in the Bible. Jacob and his brother war in the womb. During delivery, Jacob pulls his brother back so he himself can be the first born. In HP, the 'twins' are both first born, and they're not twins. They have split the singular birthright of the firstborn. Since Godric is definitely the older first born, he has the senior perk of final say over Salazar in voting or decision making. So, now, it is reasonable to say that Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff were split over Hogwart's accepting only 'purebloods' with Godric's vote being the tiebreaker. Salazar's bitterness against muds(whether he was even pureblood himself) is doubled as he cannot vote to keep Hogwart's 'pure'. He closes his chamber and leaves Hogwart's vowing that his rightful heir will one day cleanse the school. So, that's nice. This is the starting point, part 1. If anyone is reading this/this gets posted, I'll post pt. 2. From lorischmidt1 at juno.com Wed Jan 29 12:54:14 2003 From: lorischmidt1 at juno.com (ladyofmisrule2000 ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 12:54:14 -0000 Subject: Was it a back-handed compliment? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50978 Lori: I don't think Barty Crouch, Jr. was complimenting Harry and Hermione when he told them they should be Aurors, because as a loyal supporter of Voldemort, Crouch, Jr. is not likely to have met an Auror he really liked. >Sarmi (whose thoughts were echoed by the wonderfully named Danger >Mouse): > >I would think that a compliment from a DE would be better than from >an Auror? After I found out that Crouch Jr. was a DE I found that >his compliment to Harry and Hermione carried more weight, because he >would know the skills need to be a good Auror. Lori: So you believe the remark was made with what we could term a grudging respect? I like that theory. >Sarmi: >Also, don't forget that he was impersonating Moody. Crouch Jr. >could *not* let his guard down, or slip up, those that knew Moody >would know something was up if he didn't act like himself. It would >also be in character for Moody to notice such things about his >students, no one questioned the fact that he turned Malfoy into a >ferret, except McGonagall. The real Moody is not a nice guy. Lori: Agreed. But one of the wonderful ironies JKR establishes is that we know at least part of the time, Crouch, Jr. is acting in a way that is consistent with his character *and* Moody's. The example you cited is an excellent illustration of this. Apparently, turning Draco into a ferret isn't out of Moody's character, or--as you have pointed out-- someone would have called Crouch, Jr. on it. But Crouch, Jr. has his own agenda here, too. He hates Draco's Dad for abandoning the Death Eaters after the original "fall" of Voldemort. -Lori, who wouldn't mind being an Auror...part-time anyway; thwarting danger seems like tough work! From gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 29 14:37:16 2003 From: gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com (gingersnape1966 ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 14:37:16 -0000 Subject: Cauldrons and Bill Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50979 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, ArtsyLynda at a... wrote: > Carolyn wrote: > > > what do the students do with their cauldrons > > once they get to school? It's not very practical to think that they > > carry their cauldron around with them until Potions class, because > > cauldrons are heavy. Me: I had assumed that they were like band instruments were when I was in school. You have your own and you store it in the bandroom. If you need another one, (i.e. yours is getting repaired, you share with a sibling who has a concert,) you borrow a school horn. Lynda wrote: > As for Bill/Bilius Weasley -- well spotted! I hadn't noticed that myself. > :-> > Me: I hadn't either! But the replies got me thinking. Most people were asking who would name a kid Bilius. Others countered that if it were a family name, it would be logical. So what I spent half the night at work contemplating: What is a "common" name in the WW? Many seem to have what we would call common (James, Peter, etc.) while others have unusual ones (Marvolo, Gilderoy) regardless of whether they were pureblood or muggleborn. What *really* got me going was the "-us" names: Albus, Rubeus, Mundungus, Arsenius, Lucius, Remus, Sirius, Filius (reported to be Flitwick's first name in a JKR interview), Severus, Dedalus, Cornelius, Bartemius (two of 'em!), Argus, Vindictus, Flavius (FB)and Barberus, Magnus and Quintus (all QA). That's not to mention the common names: Seamus, Marcus and Augustus! With all that in mind, who's to say Bilius isn't a "common" name in the WW? Ginger, who extends a very big thanks to Steve and the Lexicon for completing her list and preventing the mental explosion that would have surely followed had one been missed. From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Wed Jan 29 14:40:37 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 14:40:37 -0000 Subject: A midget in glasses, was SHIP Banter and SHIP subjects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50980 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z " wrote: > Erica wrote: > > > mean(3) adj. > > > > Occupying a middle or intermediate position between two extremes. > > Intermediate in size, extent, quality, time, or degree; medium. > > Excellent documentation, Erica! Thanks. Words and wordplay is kind of a hobby of mine, though I'm not terribly *good* at it. Still, I'm chuffed that I can, on occassion, *almost* complete the G&M's cryptic crossword ;) > mean that he, and JKR, thought "mean stature" meant "lack of height" > in this context. Which, compared to Ron, Harry certainly has. > > Yes compared with Ron, Harry has a 'lack of height' but then Ron is a lanky kid (I see him towering over the twins) so that most all of his classmates when compared with him would have a 'lack of height'. Harry is of average stature; not very tall, not very short, not very thin, no very fat. There is, for all appearances, nothing 'extraordinary' about him. I could almost let that stand in for my favorite line; it's not so > much the line itself as Ron's imitation of Trelawney. However, I'll > go with another Trelawney-inspired Ron line that always leaves me > helpless no matter how many times I read it: > > "And on Wednesday, I think I'll come off worst in a fight." > "Aaah, I was going to have a fight. OK, I'll lose a bet." > "Yeah, you'll be betting I win my fight . . ." There are many lines in the book that are favourites of mine, some humourous, some poignant and others that spark a memory of lines from other works. In GoF, Pansy says of Hermione 'Very pretty? Her?' (or something like that) which always brings to mind (for me) that line in P and P "She a beauty! -- I should as soon call her mother a wit." but that's just me :D Erica Questions and answers between the scholar and the master, of the vantages and disadvantages between a tall man, and a man of mean stature, having both the perfect knowledge in their weapons. Scholar: Who has the advantage in fight, of a tall man, or a man of mean stature? Master: The tall man has the vantage, for these causes(23): his reach being longer, and weapon unto his stature accordingly, he has thereby a shorter course with his feet to win the true place, wherein by the swift motion of his hand, he may strike or thrust home, in which time a man of mean stature cannot reach him, & by his large pace, in his true pace in his regression further, sets himself out of danger, & these are the vantages that a tall man has against any man of shorter reach than himself. > From dorigen at hotmail.com Wed Jan 29 15:06:31 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 15:06:31 +0000 Subject: Names Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50981 gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com said: >What *really* got me going was the "-us" names: Albus, Rubeus, >Mundungus, Arsenius, Lucius, Remus, Sirius, Filius (reported to be >Flitwick's first name in a JKR interview), Severus, Dedalus, >Cornelius, Bartemius (two of 'em!), Argus, Vindictus, Flavius (FB)and >Barberus, Magnus and Quintus (all QA). That's not to mention the >common names: Seamus, Marcus and Augustus Most of these names have Latin origins, which I think is intended to emphasize the long-lived and old-fashioned nature of the Wizarding World. (I am pretty sure JKR made up "Mundungus," and "Seamus" is a Gaelic name transliterated into English; I think it's the Gaelic for "James.") Also, of course, the names are sometimes outrageous puns or clues, such as Sirius (Dog Star) Black, Argus (the many-eyed) Filch, Remus (nursed by wolves) Lupin. And Lucius reminds me of Lucifer ... Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From eloiseherisson at aol.com Wed Jan 29 15:57:21 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 10:57:21 EST Subject: Names Message-ID: <76.295cb04a.2b6953e1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50982 Janet Anderson: >I am pretty sure JKR made up "Mundungus," >From the archives, post 27572 (I know this has come up more recently, but this is the only post I could lay my hands on): >Mundungus is a smelly tobacco from the Spanish "mondongo" = "paunch, >tripe, black pudding", related to "mondejo" = "stuffed mutton or pork >stomach"; in turn, from the Arabic "bondoca"? "bodonca"?** which >seems to have the same meaning as the other Spanish cognate, >"albondiga": "Ball of chopped fish or meat, formed with bread crumbs, >eggs, and spices, that is eaten fried or stewed." > >[**diccionarios.com has two different transliterations] > >....Craig, who won't mention the other meaning of albondiga (yuck).... ~Eloise From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 29 16:31:08 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 08:31:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bill Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030129163108.50258.qmail@web20006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50983 > The point, though, regarding Bill Weasley, is that > by whatever > Potterverse chronology one wishes to follow, he grew > up in the > 70s/80s, at which time I can't think of any big name > Wills who could > have served as role models. William certainly wasn't > a particularly > popular name then, but even so anyone who called > themselves "Bill" > would have been assumed to be a William, and > conversely, most > Williams would have called themselves Bill. > I still say his name is Bilius. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From stbinch at actionsd.com Wed Jan 29 18:07:25 2003 From: stbinch at actionsd.com (Steve Binch) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 11:07:25 -0700 Subject: Harry's Wand Conjures the Dark Mark - Significance? References: <1043829547.1935.10765.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <003f01c2c7c1$4766f320$2101a8c0@ACTIONSTEEL.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 50984 I was just re-listening to GoF and was wondering what significance there is in Barty Jr. using Harry's wand to conjure the dark mark. JKR could have had Jr. use any wand, but she made it Harry's wand. Has there been any relavence to this later in the book? I wonder if the fact that Harry's wand has conjured the dark mark will have any significance later on. I know it's kind of a stab in the dark, but what do you guys think? From jodel at aol.com Wed Jan 29 18:24:13 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 13:24:13 EST Subject: On diverse "mean" meanings (was; midget in glasses) Message-ID: <176.157d8806.2b69764d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 50985 >>Erica:"I believe that 'of mean stature' implies that Harry is 'of average height' (ie. neither *tall* nor *short*) for his age group" Falcon: On a separate note, I did discover in GoF that Harry is no longer short, but rather he is average height. It's in the Divination class, where Trelawney says, "your dark hair and mean stature." Mean means average, and stature refers to height. I looked it up in three different books just to make sure.<< This comment called to mind one of the anecdotes regarding Jane Austin's works in translations. I believe it was an early Russian translation which transmuted Mrs. Bennett's "mean" understanding into "average intellegence". Evidently Erica and Falcon are in good, if unclear on the concept, company. The "literary" usage of the therm "mean" has historically been to signify "lowly". This usage continued in comparitively common circumstances into at least the early 20th century. ("Down these mean streets [must go] a man who is not mean, neither tarnished, nor afraid" --Raymond Chandler in one of his omniciant narriator interjections.) -JOdel From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 29 18:32:57 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002 ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 18:32:57 -0000 Subject: Mundungus Fletcher In-Reply-To: <9c.2cfbd6b5.2b6879c9@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50986 Tzvi of Brooklyn wrote: > We all know that Dumblydore sends Sirius to go round up the gang > which consists of Mundungus Fletcher, Arabella Figg, and Lupin. > I haven't read CoS in a while and I ran by his name. He had been > raided by the Misuse of Muggle Artifacts department of the MoM. Has > this been discussed before. What do you think it means? Now me: LOON here: In CoS, Arthur Weasley does not say that Mundungus was raided by the MoM, he says "And old Mundungus Fletcher tried to put a hex on me when I had my back turned" (Ch. 3). I interpreted this as meaning that Mundungus was working with Arthur during the raids, but that Mundungus is a bit loony and played a prank on Arthur during the raid. We have further evidence of Mundungus' loony-ness when he submits a claim in GoF for QWC damage to his "twelve-bedroomed tent with en-suite jacuzzi" when he really was "sleeping under a cloak propped on sticks" (Ch. 10). So I think Mundungus is a ministry wizard who is a bit mad. But obviously trustworthy enough to be part of Dumbledore's "old crowd." ~Phyllis From jmmears at comcast.net Wed Jan 29 18:33:12 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 18:33:12 -0000 Subject: A midget in glasses, In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50987 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Erica " wrote: > Yes compared with Ron, Harry has a 'lack of height' but then Ron is a > lanky kid (I see him towering over the twins) so that most all of his > classmates when compared with him would have a 'lack of height'. > Harry is of average stature; not very tall, not very short, not very > thin, no very fat. There is, for all appearances, > nothing 'extraordinary' about him. Sorry to keep flogging this comatose horse, but I still think that in the context Trelawney is using "mean" she "means" that Harry is short (not the mathematical "mean" ie average). GoF Chapter 13 "I was saying that Saturn was surely in a position of power in the heavens at the moment of your birth...Your dark hair..your mean stature...tragic losses so young in life... I think I am right in sayin, my dear, that you were born in midwinter?" "No," said Harry, "I was born in July." (This exchange cracks both me and Ron up) She is describing Harry's distinct characteristics as evidence for his having a midwinter birthday. I don't see why she would mention his "average" height as a distinguishing characteristic for those born in midwinter. In addition to Ron's "midget in glasses" joke, Harry keeps mentioning his own lack of height in relation to others, all through the book. Of course, I agree that compared to Ron, nearly everyone is probably short, but Harry has been described as being small in each of the first 3 books, and is described as "skinny" in the second chapter of GoF (although admittedly it doesn't mention his height in this passage). I don't doubt that at 14/15 he could still have a huge growth spurt that would close the gap between himself and his peers, height-wise, but I still think that Trelawney is describing Harry's stature as small, rather than average. Jo Serenadust From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Wed Jan 29 18:17:51 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 18:17:51 -0000 Subject: Snape's rationality (WAS: A theory regarding the "innocence" of Sirius ) In-Reply-To: <00da01c2c750$2d34a090$d3447442@xyrael> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50988 Scott, thanks for your thorough and well thought out reply. You made me want to make my point clearer, so I went to canon to look up some passages that supplement it. Please forgive me, but I still don't have my copies of PoA and GoF, so any references to those books will, of necessity, be from the old noggin. SCOTT WROTE: >From the beginning of the series, Harry has never given Snape a reason to dislike him, at least not a believable one. END. I REPLY: I have to contest this. I believe that Harry's given Snape multiple reasons to dislike him, starting with the fact that Harry doesn't like Snape: "Maybe he's ill!" said Ron hopefully. "Maybe he's left," said Harry, "because he missed out on the Defense Against the Dark Arts job again." "Or he might have been sacked," said Ron enthusiastically. "I mean, everyone hates him ?" "Or maybe," said a very cold voice right behind them, "he's waiting to hear why you two didn't arrive on the school train." (CoS 77-78) Although this comes from CoS, it illustrates my point better, maybe, than any other. R-E-S-P-E-C-T. Harry et al show Snape no respect. Not only don't they show respect, they're downright DISrespectful of him. It starts in PS/SS with the trio's completely false and unfair assumptions that Snape must be a) trying to kill Harry, and b) be trying to steal the Sorceror's Stone. "Quirrell said Snape ?" "PROFESSOR Snape, Harry." [empasis converted from italics] "Yes him ?" (Dumbledore and Harry on PS/SS 299-300) Even Dumbledore, who clearly favors Harry, has to remind him to be respectful of a professor. And as we all know, this baseless dislike and disrespect continues throughout canon. And although they often malign him, I don't think he's ever really actually guilty of their accusations. To date, the only wrongdoing of which Snape is actually guilty happened pre-canon, when he was a Death Eater. SCOTT WROTE: Of course, Snape will later claim that his intense dislike of Harry stems from Hary's disregard of the rules. It seems to me that if Snape had such high respect for 'the rules,' he'd be the head of Hufflepuff, not Slytherin. >From the Sorting Hat Song: Or perhaps in Slytherin You'll make your real friends, Those cunning folks use any means To achieve their ends. -PS/SS END I REPLY: I think you confuse "cunning" with "rule-breaking." Or, "cunning" <> (or ~=) "rule-breaking" (for the programmers...) ;-P First, "cunning" has nothing to do with rules at all. It has to do with being crafty and clever. Second, I would hardly describe Harry et al as "cunning," since they're always getting caught in medias res rule breaking. A "cunning" person is not someone who is likely to be caught breaking the rules. Slytherins respect "cunning" folks. They don't respect blatant rule-breakers. SCOTT WROTE: 1) First thing: "I shall be interested to see how Dumbledore takes this . . . He was quite convinced you were harmless, you know, Lupin . . . a tame werewolf--" (PoA, The Servant of Lord Voldemort). Snape is a hypocrite. END QUOTE This is not "hypocrisy." "Hypocrisy" would be if Snape was a danger to the students himself. And he is not a danger to the students. DANGER ("harm") is the quality to which Snape is referring. AND as we see, via the transformation scene in PoA, Lupin, however gentle he may be in human form, IS a danger to the students. And by the way, regarding what Snape owes Dumbledore: Snape is a SELF-reformed Death Eater who changed sides at great personal risk to himSELF. Dumbledore points out in GoF that he gave testimony to the effect that Snape, of his own volition and before the fall of Voldemort, switched sides to serve as a spy. He owes Dumbledore less than for what your assessment gives him credit. Snape didn't come begging for mercy like the other Death Eaters. He didn't lie and pretend to have been under the Imperius Curse. He switched sides freely. SCOTT QUOTED PoA: Hermione, however, took an uncertain step toward Snape and said, in a very breathless voice, "Professor Snape--it--it wouldn't hurt to hear what they've got to say, w--would it?" "Miss Granger, you are already facing suspension from this school," Snape spat. "You, Potter, and Weasley are out-of-bounds, in the company of a convicted murderer and a werewolf. For once in your life, hold your tongue." "But if--if there was a mistake--" "KEEP QUIET, YOU STUPID GIRL!" Snape shouted, looking suddenly quite deranged. "DON'T TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND!" END QUOTE. I REPLY: Okay. I see your point here. He loses his temper. But look, there's a problem I've noticed that a lot of people have with dissecting these books: They're written from Harry's perspective, and we're *supposed* to identify with him, by design. We *all* naturally like and identify with Harry. Otherwise we wouldn't be reading. Many of us have difficulty viewing the beloved characters, like the trio, Dumbledore, Sirius, and Lupin, from any other perspective than the one we're fed by Rowling. But remember, nearly ALL of the characters in the books do NOT hold the trio's P.O.V. (= point of view), and that is what makes the books work. So for the sake of experiment, let's try to remove ourselves from the Harry/trio/reader P.O.V. for a second, okay? When he walks into the Shrieking Shack, Snape is walking in on three students who disrespect him constantly (and who are illegally off the school grounds - AGAIN) and a werewolf-professor, all of whom are having a discussion with a convicted criminal/escapee who is considered so dangerous by the MoM that the dementors have been given leave to perform their kiss on him as SOON as he is caught. And so he finds this, and sure, he gloats. Of course he does. Sirius tried to kill him when they were kids. So after all these years, Snape finally has the upper hand. Of course he gloats. He assumes control, and what happens? Hermione interrupts him. When told to be quiet, what does she do? She interrupts again, showing nothing but disrespect. And then what happens? They ATTACK a professor. If that's not disrespect, and a reason for Snape to dislike Harry, then I don't know what is. SCOTT WROTE: fact of the matter is, this scene is why Snape bugs me- his utter inability to listen to reason when his temper is up. END. I REPLY: I consider this to be an unfair remark. Why? Because most people have an inability to listen when their tempers are up. Consider Sirius' insistence that Pettigrew die without delay. Or Harry and Ron's conflagration in GoF. This is normal human behavior. SCOTT WROTE: Harry, is rational. He is murderously angry at first (he wants to kill Sirius in the beginning of the Shrieking Shack scene, but something holds him back), but once he sees the facts, he is able to think clearly, and logically. If he didn't, well, he wouldn't have believed Sirius in the end, would he? I REPLY: Harry is *anything* but a rational character. That's why he's so real. He's rude, he's got a tart tongue, and he's anything but diplomatic. All one has to do is reread PS/SS with foreknowledge of the truth to see how irrational he is, and how often he jumps to conclusions, and how he acts falsely on those conclusions. And I think you're forgetting something key here: WHY does Harry listen to the facts? Two reasons: one, he has his friends there to support him; two, Lupin shows Harry a sign of trust by returning their wands. Under those circumstances, it's easier to chill out a little bit. SCOTT WROTE (re: above): Snape however, is so enraged, he won't even listen to the facts. I REPLY: Snape has neither of those two conditions ? no friends present, and no reason to trust the situation or the people in it. From his P.O.V. he's alone, surrounded by a escaped murderer, a werewolf, and three students who obviously dislike him. And it doesn't help that the criminal/escapee already tried to kill him once before. Snape, in essence, walks into a room with five adversaries consorting together. What would you do if you stumbled on this scene? I'd probably behave very similarly, for my part. SCOTT WROTE: It's not that I think Snape is an irrational person. I do believe, however, that he can NOT think clearly when it comes to certain people. This isn't a crime, not everyone can see every side of everything, all the time. I REPLY: Precisely. Not everyone can have our (mostly) privileged readers perspective. I'm surprised that this has run as long as it has, but I'll make an effort to conclude with some attempt at brevity. ;-) First, back to Snape's deductions. Sure, at the end of PoA, when Sirius has escaped and Snape is sure Harry had something to do with it, it would seem that Snape is angry on a hunch. But I challenge you: has Snape ever been wrong in his suspicions? Has he ever accused Harry of anything when Harry wasn't actually guilty? Not to my knowledge. In fact, there are repeated references to Harry's early belief that Snape might be able to read minds. Why would Harry think that? Because Snape seems to know beyond explanation when Harry is doing something out of line. And he's not afraid to call him on it. And let's face it ? Harry's a favored rule-breaker. He breaks rules excessively, and often to the danger and detriment of others around him. An easy, all around great instance: In CoS, Harry throws a firecracker into a cauldron in Potions class, sending swelling solution onto the students, putting them ALL at risk. He does this so that Hermione can STEAL some ingredients from Snape's office, so that they can make an illegal and dangerous Polyjuice Potion in order to MASQUERADE as Crabbe, Goyle and Bulstrode (whom they will have to DRUG first.) All of this so that they can SNEAK into the Slytherin common room on another false and baseless assumption that Malfoy, for all of his crass behavior, is actually attempting to MURDER students. If that's rational, then I'm a purple bunny. And what does Harry's excessive rule-breaking get him? Excessive clemency from Dumbledore. Over and over again. So, if many professors give Harry special leniency, Snape, to his credit, is the one who doesn't. Except McGonagall, and even then only in special circumstances, when her Quidditch interests aren't threatened. So, on the whole, I would say that Snape behaves very realistically for the situations with which he's presented. His actions, I believe, are completely justified in his own mind by the fact that Harry is conferred special status by nearly everyone, and that he gets away with nearly everything that would get any other students expelled. He doesn't appreciate the trio's blatant disrespect, nor does he approve of their blatant disregard for rules that are in place. And collectively, I would submit that this illustrates extremely rational behavior. Phew. -Tom From siskiou at earthlink.net Wed Jan 29 18:39:35 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 10:39:35 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Re: Banter and other SHIP subjects In-Reply-To: <03ca01c2c63e$89b18620$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> References: <03ca01c2c63e$89b18620$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: <12479383488.20030129103935@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 50989 Hi, first, sorry for the late answer! RL took over and I lost track of the discussion. Monday, January 27, 2003, 11:59:00 AM, Penny wrote: > We aren't arguing that there are *no* positive R/H > interactions. We're not arguing that they aren't friends or are only > remaining friends because of Harry or something of that nature. I'm not sure who you refer to when you use "we", but in many forums (not sure about this list. I'd have to go back and check through many posts, which I'll probably never do ) this is exactly what is used as arguments (by some). "Ron and Hermione always fight!" "They hate each other!" "If it wasn't for Harry, they'd never have become friends in the first place." "They are only still friends for Harry's sake." (the last two I'm almost sure I've seen on this list not too long ago) So, it's not all that surprising that these often used arguments creep into the discussion, even if you haven't used them personally. Especially when people use "we" and speak for a group of people, instead of just giving their own opinion. It happens the other way around, too (R/H generalizations). :) > We're > just saying that there are some strong indicators through JKR's word > choice that the bickering/bantering and arguments between Ron and > Hermione are not all fun and games. There's a decided negativity to > the word choice she's employed in many cases and pointing up all the > positive interactions isn't going to cancel out that negativity. I > think it's JKR signaling that there is a problem in how they interact > at present. I guess, if this is the case, similar problems exist between Harry and Hermione, since negative word choices are used for part of their interactions, too. And in Harry's thoughts... For example, he thinks of her shrill and panicky voice at the beginning of GoF and a little later on:"Mrs. Weasley would fuss worse than Hermione..." (which many of us might see as one of Hermione's positive traits, but Harry clearly does not). We have words like sternly, sharply, impatiently, snapped, shrilly, grumpily, hissed used for Hermione (talking to Harry, all from GoF) , with angrily, stubbornly, wearily from Harry (talking to Hermione, all from GoF). So, negative word choice is not limited to just Ron and Hermione talking. There is less of it, because Harry doesn't rise to the occasion the way Ron does. IMO,Different personalities, and one thing I didn't ever consciously notice before: Ron and Hermione have way more direct conversation than Harry and Hermione do, even in GoF, where Harry spends more time than normal with Hermione alone. Hermione's talk gets associated with negative word choices a lot more often (and not just to Ron and Harry), which I think comes from her bristly personality. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 29 18:16:09 2003 From: mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com (Edward Post) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 13:16:09 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Wand Conjures the Dark Mark - Significance? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50990 >From: "Steve Binch" >Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 11:07:25 -0700 > >I was just re-listening to GoF and was wondering what significance there is >in Barty Jr. using Harry's wand to conjure the dark mark. JKR could have >had >Jr. use any wand, but she made it Harry's wand. Has there been any >relavence >to this later in the book? I wonder if the fact that Harry's wand has >conjured the dark mark will have any significance later on. I know it's >kind >of a stab in the dark, but what do you guys think? > One possibility: If, as has been theorized around here lately, Harry is made to defend himself against accusations of his dark tendencies, the fact that his wand conjured the Dark Mark might be used as evidence against him. That said, didn't the MoM wizards already go through the last few commands from that wand while they were still at the Quidditch World Cup? I wonder if you can replay old spells more than once. "Edward Post" _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Wed Jan 29 18:55:58 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 18:55:58 -0000 Subject: MAGIC DISHWASHER question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50991 Kristen wrote: > When you think about the publisher's teaser with Dumbledore about to > tell Harry "everything", do you think he will reveal: > a. the truth > b. misinformation to push Harry the direction he needs to go > c. nothing - he will be prevented from telling Harry anything of value > > Kristen I am of the MDDT, and thus this question is aimed my way, but in this case I don't think the answer will really be that much related to MD at all. Let's examine the quote: Dumbledore wants to tell Harry everything he should've told him five years back. What did Harry want to know that Dumbledore didn't tell him back in book 1? The reason for his parents' death, of course. And I do believe that that is what Dumbledore is going to reveal. Besides, it ties quite nicely with one of JKR's promises for book 5: to learn more about Harry's parents. How does this relate to Magic Dishwasher? Not much: MD has not even tried to guess what that reason is. I've difidently proposed a couple of possibilities, but apart from "they were involved in Dumbledore's plans and Voldemort didn't want them to" MD doesn't really go into detail. After all, MD really starts *after* their deaths - before that, Dumbledore had plans that were not related in any way to the current situation so, unless he deliberately planned Voldemort's attack, whatever the plans were they were probably scratched after Voldemort got himself almost oblitarated. And, before you ask, no, I don't think Dumbledore used the Potters as bait and NO, MD does NOT propose a Nigro (black) Dumbledore. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, who is back from his extended "vacation", and has much to discuss - and a lot of stress to burn From heidit at netbox.com Wed Jan 29 18:58:48 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 13:58:48 -0500 Subject: friendSHIP (was Re: SHIP: Re: Banter and other SHIP subjects) In-Reply-To: <12479383488.20030129103935@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <006501c2c7c8$76279f50$2401010a@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 50992 > From: Susanne [mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net] > "If it wasn't for Harry, they'd never have become friends > in the first place." Well, this is true, from a certain point of view. If it wasn't for Harry, they'd never have become friends, because Hermione would've likely been *dead* after the troll smashed her with his club. Simple as that. And if it wasn't for Harry telling Ron that they had to go warn her about the troll, they'd never have had that *same* opportunity to become friends that they did in Book 1. They didn't *like* her beforehand. Ron was mean to her and she went off for a long cry - from the afternoon into the evening. If it wasn't for Harry, then I can't see how canon would support anything other than a statement that Ron and Hermione would not have been friends on November 1, 1991, regardless of whether she'd survived the troll attack. If you read it the other way, and wish to discuss whether they'd've become friends had Harry had not been at Hogwarts, or had Harry been sorted into a different house, that's a different issue, and goes beyond the question of SHIPping. Personally, I have a feeling that Hermione still would've needed conversation different from the kind she must've seen/heard with Lavender and Parvatti, and might've struck up a conversation with Ron where she'd ask to learn how to play wizards chess, no matter how barbaric she thought it. It would've at least been an intellectual challenge. And yes, I can see a friendship generating from that, but I have a sense that were Harry not in the picture, Hermione might've been closer friends with Ginny in CoS (except that Voldemort would've returned in mid-1992, so perhaps not so much). But that's just my Alternate Universe From Canon hunch. heidi From nithya_rachel at hotmail.com Wed Jan 29 19:07:24 2003 From: nithya_rachel at hotmail.com (errolowl ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 19:07:24 -0000 Subject: More about the wizarding world and empire... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50993 Chiming in even later than David.. While the British WW seems to reflect the muggle population composition, and with it the imperialist roots, it does not necessarily imply that they actively participated in it. For one, it does not follow that the WW has the same balance of political power that the muggle world does. How powerful was the wizarding culture in 19th century India? Would the Fakirs et al be `conquered' by the Brits? If anything they could be more magically advanced, with magical schools stretching back thousands of years. This holds true for any other area colonized, be it China or Africa. David: >>Whether JKR's backstory for the WW includes wizarding participation in the imperial venture, I can't say, but note that the 'muggle- born' argument cuts both ways: if a wizard was born to Muggle Britons in 19th century India, what cultural influences would he have brought to the indigenous British WW?<< David's point is interesting...where *would* a wizard born to muggle Britons in 19th century India go to school? Does the magic quill put his name down for Hogwarts? Or does he go to the local Ashram of Magic? Does he have the option? Would his parents accept it? If he were to go to a local school, would his muggle prejudices against `natives' color his reaction to his peers? The Indian WW could still have got a dose of muggle imperialist attitudes without active participation. Immigration into Britain also does not need to have the imperialist impetus that fueled the muggle immigration patterns. How about the dynamics of pure supply and demand? What percentage of the British population is magical? With the problems of over population in the rest of the world/ or greater proportions of the magically endowed, immigration to a low density area where you could find more jobs is quite feasible. This is just one (not very well thought out) possible scenario, quite separate from the muggle world. Just because England is crowded, doesn't mean the WW perceives it to be so. The Patils, Johnsons, and Lees could have just moved there recently ? not necessarily an imperialist hangover. People move to the US all the time don't they? Now about Names. I'm from India, but my surname is Harris. It was inspired generations ago from some European friends my ancestors had. My family has always lived in India ? the name wasn't an attempt to `fit in'. (If anything I imagine it would have set themapart from their neighbors). While that may be a colonial hangover, it could just as easily have happened to a pureblood wizarding family from India who didn't have an Imperial WW Empire upon them ?the muggle one would suffice. Angelina's family could have been influenced by muggle imperialism in the Caribbean (or wherever they are from) and be no indicator of the WW's policies. Errol who suspects that the muggle Empire casts long shadows over the WW From siskiou at earthlink.net Wed Jan 29 19:24:29 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 11:24:29 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] friendSHIP (was Re: SHIP: Re: Banter and other SHIP subjects) In-Reply-To: <006501c2c7c8$76279f50$2401010a@Frodo> References: <006501c2c7c8$76279f50$2401010a@Frodo> Message-ID: <7782078134.20030129112429@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 50994 Hi, Wednesday, January 29, 2003, 10:58:48 AM, heiditandy wrote: > Well, this is true, from a certain point of view. If it wasn't for > Harry, they'd never have become friends, because Hermione would've > likely been *dead* after the troll smashed her with his club. Simple > as > that. Sure. Maybe, if Harry hadn't locked the door, Hermione could have escaped without help. Harry and Hermione might have never become friends, either, if Ron hadn't gotten angry at Hermione, making her go and cry in the bathroom, therefor giving Harry the chance to remember her . Or what if JKR had written Hermione less pushy and/or sensitive? Then she might not have felt the need to snap at Ron, and let the teacher correct him instead. Or she might have not run off to the bathroom, and written in her diary. But I suspect Hermione would have not been able to keep away from Harry and Ron in any case. She was very interested in joining them from the beginning. Something would have come up... The point is, JKR wanted all *three* of them to be friends, not just Harry and Hermione, or Ron and Harry, so if it hadn't happened that way, she would have come up with another :) -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From corsa808 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 29 19:06:01 2003 From: corsa808 at yahoo.com (infiniT ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 19:06:01 -0000 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50995 There are so many! But one that stands out right now: (CS/PS Ch. 7) "Welcome!" he said. "Welcome to a new year at Hogwarts! Before we begin our banquet, I would like to say a few words. And here they are: Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak "Thank you!" t From illyana at mindspring.com Wed Jan 29 19:28:33 2003 From: illyana at mindspring.com (illyana delorean) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 12:28:33 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] friendSHIP (was Re: SHIP: Re: Banter and other SHIP subjects) In-Reply-To: <006501c2c7c8$76279f50$2401010a@Frodo> References: <006501c2c7c8$76279f50$2401010a@Frodo> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 50996 > > From: Susanne [mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net] > >> "If it wasn't for Harry, they'd never have become friends >> in the first place." heidi wrote: >Well, this is true, from a certain point of view. If it wasn't for >Harry, they'd never have become friends, because Hermione would've >likely been *dead* after the troll smashed her with his club. Simple as >that. And if it wasn't for Harry telling Ron that they had to go warn >her about the troll, they'd never have had that *same* opportunity to >become friends that they did in Book 1. They didn't *like* her >beforehand. Ron was mean to her and she went off for a long cry - from >the afternoon into the evening. But, if it weren't for Harry, Ron may have never made fun of Hermione and she may have never gone into the girls' bathroom to cry! Hermione probably wouldn't have spent any time with Ron on the train if Harry hadn't been there, because Ron may not have been showing off his magic "skills" when she came in to ask about Trevor (and that was the reason that Hermione became interested in visiting with Ron and Harry). Maybe this lack-of-contact between Ron and Hermione would result in Ron never making fun of Hermione. Okay, maybe I am just going a little too far. Is this even what we were talking about? Sorry! illyana -- S1.3 MIL+++ RWG++# FRI++ CBG++ P&S-- f++/+++ n- $++++ 9F13, 1F22, 2F13, 3F02, 3F05, 4F01, 4F08, 4F11, 4F19 F1980 HPGCv1 a22 e+ x+* Rm Ri HP4 S+++ Mo++ HG+/VK++ HaP+/SS+++& FGW++ DM++& VC-- GG-- CD+ VK++ SS+++& PT--- AF-- MM++ RL++ O+m FAo F- Sl FHo SfD "What's the point in having a Honda if you can't show it off?" - Superintendent Chalmers visit my livejournal! http://www.livejournal.com/users/illyanadmc From BriBearBaby at backstreet-wallpaper.net Wed Jan 29 19:23:26 2003 From: BriBearBaby at backstreet-wallpaper.net (Patty) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 14:23:26 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Wand Conjures the Dark Mark - Significance? References: Message-ID: <008701c2c7cb$e67f8300$0101a8c0@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 50997 >One possibility: If, as has been theorized around here lately, Harry is >made to defend himself against accusations of his dark tendencies, the fact >that his wand conjured the Dark Mark might be used as evidence against him. >That said, didn't the MoM wizards already go through the last few commands >from that wand while they were still at the Quidditch World Cup? I wonder >if you can replay old spells more than once. >"Edward Post" Would it even be necessary to have the spells replayed from Harry's wand since Barty Jr. had confessed, in front of four witnesses, that it was he (Barty Jr.) who conjoured the Dark Mark? Patty [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From trondmm-hp4gu at crusaders.no Wed Jan 29 19:34:27 2003 From: trondmm-hp4gu at crusaders.no (Trond Michelsen) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 20:34:27 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Wand Conjures the Dark Mark - Significance? In-Reply-To: <003f01c2c7c1$4766f320$2101a8c0@ACTIONSTEEL.COM>; from stbinch@actionsd.com on Wed, Jan 29, 2003 at 11:07:25AM -0700 References: <1043829547.1935.10765.m12@yahoogroups.com> <003f01c2c7c1$4766f320$2101a8c0@ACTIONSTEEL.COM> Message-ID: <20030129203427.H16067@crusaders.no> No: HPFGUIDX 50998 On Wed, Jan 29, 2003 at 11:07:25AM -0700, Steve Binch wrote: > I was just re-listening to GoF and was wondering what significance there is > in Barty Jr. using Harry's wand to conjure the dark mark. JKR could have had > Jr. use any wand, but she made it Harry's wand. Has there been any relavence > to this later in the book? Depends on how you define "relevance" I think. It's a sneaky way of demonstrating the effect of Priori Incantatem for the reader, so that they'll recognize it in the graveyard scene. > I wonder if the fact that Harry's wand has conjured the dark mark will > have any significance later on. I know it's kind of a stab in the > dark, but what do you guys think? I really don't think so. I'm not sure if Fudge knows about this, but by this time he seems to be convinced that Harry is completely bonkers anyway, so I don't think it'll make any difference whatsoever if he finds out about it. -- // Trond Michelsen \X/ mike at crusaders.no From oppen at mycns.net Wed Jan 29 19:48:50 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 13:48:50 -0600 Subject: Snape and respect Message-ID: <01e801c2c7cf$72fdf980$16560043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 50999 My learned colleague Suzanne has made some very interesting points concerning Professor Snape's dislike of the Trio, and how it stems from their disrespect for him. However, she overlooks an important point: _From the first time they met,_ Professor Snape made it clear that he disliked Harry. In Harry's first day of Potions, Professor Snape went out of his way to single him out for negative attention, throwing question after question at him and then sneering when he couldn't answer. This is not, to put it mildly, a good way to start out a professional (professoral?) relationship...I would have been seething inside had I been in that classroom, even if I wasn't the kid on the spot. I can understand, to a limited extent, some of his treatment of Hermione---but in his boots, I'd deal with it differently. When she's constantly trying to answer _all_ the questions, I would merely say something like "I _know_ that you know the answer, Miss Granger, and I do thank you for your enthusiasm. However, I _would_ like to hear from some of the other students here, some of whom seem to have joined a new religious order and taken a vow of utter silence." A big part of Snape's problem, or so it seems to me, is that he's really, really talented at Potions, but forced into a position where he has to constantly deal with little kids who mostly aren't as interested and certainly don't have anything like his level of talent. Think "Paderewski giving piano lessons to kids" and you might have an idea of what I'm trying to say. He resents their lack of interest, enthusiasm and talent, and is, himself, temperamentally ill-suited to his job---I've known teachers that could have had _History of Magic_ classes alert and enthusiastic, for the gods' sake, and Potions, with its possibilties for amazing demonstrations of potion-power, could be turned into the students' favorite class by someone with a little of Gilderoy Lockhart's instinct for showmanship (but a lot more talent and actual knowledge of the subject). From rvotaw at i-55.com Wed Jan 29 19:41:30 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 13:41:30 -0600 (CST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Wand Conjures the Dark Mark - Significance? Message-ID: <17101046.1043869290045.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51000 Steve wrote: > I was just re-listening to GoF and was wondering what significance there is > in Barty Jr. using Harry's wand to conjure the dark mark. JKR could have had > Jr. use any wand, but she made it Harry's wand. Has there been any relavence > to this later in the book? I wonder if the fact that Harry's wand has > conjured the dark mark will have any significance later on. I know it's kind > of a stab in the dark, but what do you guys think? Maybe I'm too simplistic, but I've always assumed it was just because Harry's the center of the book so we needed it done by someone who would be in the story. Both while the wand is actually being taken (though unknown at the time) and when the mark was made, and when it was discovered who the wand belonged to. In my mind the only reason it was important is because of the Priori Incantatum done shortly after to determine if the wand was the one used. Because we needed to have a prior experience with that particular phenomenon before the graveyard scene so we'd know what was going on. On the other hand, if it's more complex than that (since it could have been, say, Ron's or Hermione's wand), it could be used as evidence against him. However, I just simply don't think JKR will send Harry to Azkaban. For one thing, the evidence we have of Harry's ability to withstand the dementors. He's passed out multiple times in the presence of only one dementor (at times it wasn't even a real dementor, though I suppose it would feel just as real). Anyway, Harry's patronus can withstand a dementor or two for a short time, drive them off, but to be surrounded by countless dementors day and night with no break? He'd lose his mind. I just don't think it will happen. St. Mundos is more likely, I suppose, if Fudge convinced enough people that Harry's insane and making the whole thing up. Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From megalynn44 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 29 19:51:35 2003 From: megalynn44 at hotmail.com (Megalynn S.) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 14:51:35 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Wand Conjures the Dark Mark - Significance? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51001 From: "Steve Binch" I was just re-listening to GoF and was wondering what significance there is in Barty Jr. using Harry's wand to conjure the dark mark. JKR could have had Jr. use any wand, but she made it Harry's wand. Has there been any relavence to this later in the book? I wonder if the fact that Harry's wand has conjured the dark mark will have any significance later on. I know it's kind of a stab in the dark, but what do you guys think? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Most likely it was just a plot device so readers would recognize Priori Incantatem at the end. JKR seems to enjoy using everything she introduces at some point even over books, For example polyjuice potion. We are introduced to it in COS and it has real plot significance in GOF. Of course I could go in a completely different direction and wonder what would have happened if Voldemort's wand caused Harry's spell to come out an dit made it to the Dark mark. Highly unlikely but nevertheless. This also makes me wonder what the huge plot hole JKR has said she came across while writing GOF was, and what she did to fix it. Or if this has relevence. I am probably getting off topic now so I will stop. Megalynn _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jan 29 19:52:41 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 19:52:41 -0000 Subject: On diverse "mean" meanings (was; midget in glasses) In-Reply-To: <176.157d8806.2b69764d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51002 Jodel:"The "literary" usage of the therm "mean" has historically been to signify "lowly". This usage continued in comparitively common circumstances into at least the early 20th century. ("Down these mean streets [must go] a man who is not mean, neither tarnished, nor afraid" --Raymond Chandler in one of his omniciant narriator interjections.)" Of course you are right. Here's the sentence as Trelawney said it: ""I was saying, my dear, that you were clearly born under the baleful [harmful] influence of Saturn," said Professor Trelawney....."I was saying that Saturn was surely in a position of power in the heavens at the moment of your birth. . . . Your dark hair. . . your mean stature...tragic losses so young in life. . " Now substitute 'average height' into the sentence about Saturn's baleful influence: "Saturn was surely in a position of power in the heavens at the moment of your birth. . . . Your dark hair. . . your average height...tragic losses so young in life. . " Does that meaning fit Trelawney's umpteenth recap of Harry's hard-luck life, or does this? "Saturn was surely in a position of power in the heavens at the moment of your birth. . . . Your dark hair. . . your lowly, shabby stature...tragic losses so young in life. . " Sounds more consistent with Trelawney's drift, no? Quotes have to be taken in context and account for where the speaker's coming from. Since Trelawney always seems darn near disappointed Harry is still breathing, why would she call attention to his 'average' height? Jodel is right, and the literary meaning, as he well put it, is clearly the correct one. Jim Ferer From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Wed Jan 29 20:12:43 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 20:12:43 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Dumbledore's feelings about Voldemort Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51003 Melody was confortably resting in one of the armchairs in the Safe House, thinking that defending MD was not only a full-time job, but also quite lonely lately. Pip seemed to be engrosed with some proyect or another in her room, and no-one in the Bay had heard anything about Grey Wolf for months. Suddenly, a great howl shattered the calm silence of the Bay. Coney suddenly looked up, her eyes afraid, 2 million years of evolution informing her that *that* couldn't be good news. Melody knew better "Don't worry, Coney, I seemed to detect a happy tone in that howl. I'm pretty sure that soon enough we're going to see the resident werewolf of the Safe House. If I remember correctly, he promised to take you out to hunt when he came out of his reclusion" Sure enough, in a couple of minutes, a door opened in the East wing and almost immediately after Grey Wolf was at the door, looking happy, relived and above all *relaxed* "Finally! I thought *that* little job was never going to be finished. I'm sorry it took so long, I hadn't expected it to dominate my time..." Grey Wolf stopped and started sniffing the air, a puzzled look in his features clearly visible "Who's the new tenant? I can smell an unfamiliar person in the air. Someone has joined MDDT and I wasn't informed?" "Not at all, Grey" answered Mel, "This is the Safe House, not everyone living here has to be part of MDDT, after all" "True enough. I supose I'll meet her sooner or later, now that I'm out of my room. Speaking of which, come here, little one, have you missed me?" Grey Wolf beckoned to Coney, who delightedly jumped into his hands. The image of a 6' 6" werewolf petting a tiny rabbit was disturbing, at the very best, but Melody was used to having that sort of thing happening in the Safe House. "I think I should take her out and start training her in the hunt." said Grey, "But before I do that, I have a theory that needs trying out. It's about Dumbledore and Voldemort" "Let's hear it, then" Answered Melody, straightening in her chair. "You see, I was working on the origins of Magic Dishwasher the other day, and I realised that Dumbledore fears facing Voldemort as much as Voldemort fears Dumbledore himself" "Does he? I never got that impression. Explain that, please" "Sure. Let me get some canon behind this." Grey Wolf picked up one of the various copies of PS lying around the living room and carefully manipulated it with his paws until he found the correct page. "Here it is: <<[Dumbledore is speaking] "I've never found any reason to fear pronouncing the name Voldemort" "I know you don't have that problem" Observed the proffesor McGonagall, between exasperation and admiration, "but you are different. Everyone knows that you are the only one You-know... Oh, well, Voldemort feared" "You are flattering me" said Dumbledore calmly, "Voldemort had powers I never had" "Only because you are too... good... noble... to use them>>" "What edition is that? I don't remember that wording" asked Melody "Probably not, no. I seemed to have picked up a Spanish edition and I've been tranlating on the spot. At any rate, it's from the first chpater of PS." Answered Grey Wolf "Now, let me examime it: Please note that Dumbledore mentions that he doesn't fear *the name*, but never gives his views on Voldemort himself, and neither does McGonagall. Furthermore, at that particular time, *everyone* feared Voldemort. He was winning, after all. Let's dig in a little deeper. In this few lines it is established that Voldemort feared facing Dumbledore, but Dumbledore himself indicates that he didn't have as many powers as Voldemort had. McGonagall quickly jumps to his defence by saying that he has the raw power, but that he wouldn't stoop that low, so to speak. This is revealing. A person that has the power to use a gun but doesn't out of a moral choice will die just as fast when faced with someone with a smaller gun as someone who had no gun to begin with. Now, the example is not exact, because we don't really know how wizard duels work, but we can safely asume that one of the powers Dumbledore is not ready to use is AK, and if in a duel against Voldemort he doesn't use AK, he's going to have little chance of winning. So, my opinion is that Dumbledore knew that, faced against Voldemort, he'd probably die. We are not sure how he stopped Grindelwald, but it is possible that, just like the MD plans against Voldemort, that Grindelwald was stopped by clever planning instead of being the fastest colt east of the Mississippi. But independently of that, Dumbledore knows that, faced with (pre-fateful night) Voldemort, he doesn't stand a chance. Why do I think that? Let's review what was happening before the fateful night once more. We know that Voldemort had the WW on the brink of colapse. We also know that 'Hogwarts was one of the few safe places' - because Dumbledore was there, protected, inside his castle. However, it is well known that a war cannot be won from a defensive position. If Dumbledore had enough power to finish off Voldemort, why didn't he do so? After all, he had a man in the inner circle: Snape, so they *had* to know where Voldemort spent his time between assasinations. Once he had been located, it was a matter of getting toghether the old gang and going there in force and, while the others kept whatever DEs happened to be around busy, Dumbledore could take Voldemort out once and for all. And yet, Dumbledore didn't do it. Because he knew that, faced against Voldemort, he couldn't win, unless he was playing in his own turf (i.e. Hogwarts). He knew that Voldemort would stop at nothing to destroy him, and that his (Dumbledore's) own consciense would stop him from using the spells that could win him the battle (and loose the war, by turning him into the next evil wizard). Which means that Dumbledore feared to face Voldemort - not out of fear for his own life (I have the feeling that Dumbledore stopped fearing death a long time ago), but out a real fear for the WW if he stopped being around to put some brakes into Voldemort's actions - if Dumbledore hadn't been around, Voldemort would've been more open and direct in his methods, almost surely" Grey Wolf finally stopped talking, and seemed to contemplate the horizon through one of the windows for a moment, his eyes lost in thought. "I think I'll take out Coney for a lesson on hunting now. I'll give you some time to think about what I just said, if you want to disagree. I'll be out there, if you -or anyone- needs me" Grey Wolf pointed out of the window to the forest behind the house. Then, Grey Wolf stooped to get passed the door, carrying Coney with him, and left the room, leaving a Melody lost in thought sitting in her chair. Suddenly, Grey Wolf pooped back and said "Uuups, I almost forgot. Hope that helps". Grey Wolf From aja_1991 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 29 19:51:27 2003 From: aja_1991 at yahoo.com (aja_1991 ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 19:51:27 -0000 Subject: Harry Will Be Accused and Locked up in Azkaban/ His Escape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51004 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "happybean98 " wrote: > I agree with Jim 100% about Sirius and Lupin. As for Dumbledore, I > am certain he will be removed somehow the moment Cornelius Fudge > finds out from Rita Skeeter that he is harboring Sirius Black.. Any > defense Dumbledore could give would be weakened if not annihilated by > this turn of events. I've noticed several messages in which the release/escape of Rita Skeeter from Hermione's jar will be very uncomfortable for Dumbledore et al, as Rita will take poison quill in hand and write out the information she learned on the ledge in the hospital wing at the end of GoF. The above is an example. I'm going to take a different approach: Rita will never write any of this, and it's for the very simple reason that Hermione, Harry, and Ron (and presumably, Dumbledore as well) all know her unregistered Animagus secret. "But wait!" you say. "It's been theorized that the heaps of gold and acclaim Rita will receive for writing this expose' will allow her to retire in luxury for the rest of her days; the small annoyance at her secret being revealed and any fines she might pay is a price she might be willing to pay." First, although I don't buy it, Rita might genuinely enjoy writing her tabloid articles, and her ability to do so would be diminished if everyone kept checking for beetles at every secret meeting/conversation. So she might choose to not write the article, preserve her secret, write her nasty stuff about other people and events, and assume Hermione wouldn't bother snitching over that (probably a good risk on her part). Like I said, it's possible, but I don't think so. However, in the event the Dumbledore-is-helping-Black article were written, it would make for some interesting possibilities of counterclaims. (1) Rita writes her twenty page expose', "Albus Dumbledore Seeks to Undermine MoM, Harbors Known Murderers, ex-Death-Eaters". (2) Dumbledore sends a "Letter to the Editor," or perhaps hundreds of individual owls, noting, "One of my students learned some embarassing information about Rita Skeeter during the Triwizard Tournament, and having seen the personal attack articles Rita has researched in the past, made Rita promise not to write such nasty non-fiction articles in the future, which she agreed to. I am pleased to see that Rita is complying with the non-fiction portion of her promise, and has turned her considerable writing talents to fiction. I personally found her novel quite entertaining and riveting, and am pleased she made me a part of it." In other words, Rita made it up to avoid having the embarassing secret exposed. And really, c'mon... Dumbledore working directly with Sirius Black? Pretty impressive imagination there, Rita. (3) The ball is in Rita's court. (a) Rita says that her information is true and tries to point out evidence. "There was a dog there, and I heard them say Sirius is a dog Animagus". Dumbledore reveals her secret. "There is no proof Sirius is an Animagus. Many animals roam the grounds at Hogwarts, and the children had developed a fondness for this one". I argue that public perception is that when choosing between believing the Supreme Mugwump and a tabloid writer, the public sides with Albus. The nice thing is that people start wondering how accurate her past reporting is. Maybe Harry's not crazy after all... (b) Rita says nothing, effectively indicating that the article *is* fiction. It also ends her career as a snoop reporter, as everything will be seen as fiction. This is the opportunity for Dumbledore - or better yet, somebody else - to approach Rita about using the unnamed secret to the advantage of the good guys. Wouldn't it be nice to have some, uh, fiction articles published about the Death Eater meetings with the resurrected Voldemort? (See movie "Men In Black" for further development on this one...). The big question mark here is Fudge. In theory, Fudge could say that he has found Dumbledore to be a bit batty lately, and that he has full confidence that a great deal of Rita's article is based in fact. Then it's Rita+Fudge vs. Dumbledore. That might get interesting. But I can't see the image-conscious Fudge doing this. I daresay he would say nothing. So given that she'll have a year to work this out in her head before being released, during which time she'll likely be "invited" to a private chat between Hermione and Dumbledore where this will all be hashed out, I think she'll keep this secret to herself. Either that, or Evil!Hermione Obliviates her the instant she comes out of the jar and transforms back to Rita... aja_1991, delurking to speculate yet again... From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jan 29 20:17:32 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 20:17:32 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Romantic Comedy & Author Intent; Ginny In-Reply-To: <0a2901c2c748$7d190680$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51005 I said: <<<<<), it's reasonable to expect some comic/romantic involvement later.>>>>>>>>> Penny: >>But, this is all with hindsight. When you first read PS/SS, you had no idea that the Weasleys would be important until later in the story. You definitely didn't know but what Hermione would be a very minor character, never to appear much again. Where's Piers Polkiss after all? Lee Jordan appears very early on the Platform, and he's not a particularly developed character. I think you're imposing hindsight on your interpretation. At the time, I certainly didn't expect comic/romantic involvement. I still don't. << I'm not sure I understand your point. *I* didn't know that Hermione would be important in the story when she made her first appearance, but JKR certainly did, and she chose to introduce Hermione to the boys in just that comic/romantic way. Certainly from the Troll incident on, we know Hermione's a major character. I knew while reading PS/SS that it was a multi-year saga (the great big shiny gold "Year 1" on the cover kind of tipped me off ) and that James and Lily had met at Hogwarts--so it was clear at the start that one of the things I could expect the characters to do at Hogwarts is meet their potential mates. So, yes, I was interested to see what eligible girls Harry would meet at Hogwarts. It didn't surprise me that Harry would run across two before he even got there. Unless I have misread something drastically, I wouldn't think Piers Polkiss and Lee Jordan are eligible romantic partners for Harry. You seem to be persuaded that teenagers should not be encouraged to think of anyone they meet at school as a future partner--but I see no foreshadowing of this lesson in the story itself. The two failed couples we know of, Hagrid's parents and Tom Riddle's, did *not* meet at Hogwarts, since Giants and Muggles do not attend the school. I said: <<<>>>>>>>>> Penny: Well, I'm afraid I really can't agree with this. That may well be true for some readers, but not this one. I've found Ginny irritating from the get-go, and I never once considered that she was Harry's potential romantic partner. Briefly, after I read CoS, I thought that might be a possibility, but I immediately read PoA after that and quickly decided that no, Ginny couldn't possibly hold that role since JKR shunted her even more in the background in PoA. That's one thing I definitely can't see as a "convention" (holding the hero's love interest into a completely background undeveloped role for a sustained period of time). Makes no sense to me. << I wonder if you would find Ginny so irritating if she had a crush on, say, Viktor Krum instead? One of the things the author has to do is keep things from being predictable. This character, whom you admit you considered as a potential romantic partner for Harry, (hard to see how H/G could play as contrived or an afterthought if that's the case) has now been thrust into the background so far that you can't imagine how she could ever get back into Harry's life. That's an obstacle to the relationship, which is one of the necessary ingredients if the story isn't to be dead in the water at the start. As for McGonagall, in what way do you consider her to be emotionally incomplete? Ginny's incompleteness is obvious from her first scene on. McGonagall, OTOH seems remarkably stable and self-sufficient. Emotional incompleteness is not the same as character development, which would tell us things like *why* Ginny so desperately wanted a hero in her life, or why Neville, who's obviously attracted to Hermione, found Ginny attractive as well. I can see you don't *like* the H/G chemistry and that you don't like the R/H chemistry either, but that's not the same thing as no chemistry at all. I also would say that Ginny's interest in Harry is crafted skillfully into the narrative. I certainly didn't get the impression from GoF that she'd forgotten about him. She's not actively pursuing him, but since that was one of the immature aspects of her character (chasing the train in PS/SS, wanting to go meet Harry) , that's hardly a detriment to their future as a couple. As for throwing the love interest into an inactive role, that is a part of many traditional stories, such as "The Sleeping Beauty." Here's Bruno Bettelheim's explanation, from The Uses of Enchantment, Vintage Books, 1977-- ** Ancient as "The Sleeping Beauty" is, in many ways it has a more important message for today's youth than many other tales. Presently many of our young people--and their parents-- are fearful of quiet growth, when nothing seems to happen, because of a common belief that only doing what can be seen achieves goals. "The Sleeping Beauty" tells that a long period of quiescence, of comtemplation, of concentration on the self, can and often does lead to highest achievement."** There is also H/H chemistry, I admit. *I * happen not to like it. It seems oriented to Harry's needs and with rewarding Hermione for all she's done for him--as if the only way a man can properly show his appreciation for a woman's help is to fall in love with her. No thanks! But that's just me Pippin From falcon21 at flash.net Wed Jan 29 19:59:44 2003 From: falcon21 at flash.net (Falcon) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 13:59:44 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A midget in glasses, References: Message-ID: <000b01c2c7d0$fc273c70$1ab45a42@falcon> No: HPFGUIDX 51006 ----- Original Message ----- From: serenadust To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 12:33 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A midget in glasses, Jo Serenadust >Sorry to keep flogging this comatose horse, but I still think that >in the context Trelawney is using "mean" she "means" that Harry is >short (not the mathematical "mean" ie average). Me: Mathematical or not, when "mean" is used in conjunction with "stature" it is describing a person's average height. The context is that she is talking about his physical description. "Mean" when used to describe someone refers to their average size. It don't matter how much you disagree with it, that's the way it is. Sorry to be like this, but it seems like no one is willing to let the boy grow. Most want him to remain short and skinny, when his father was tall, so he could very well get tall. I don't know what the British consider average height, maybe someone could enlighten us. I see Ron as around 6 feet tall, and Harry is probably between 5 feet 7 inches, and 6 feet tall. That's about average. GoF Chapter 13 "I was saying that Saturn was surely in a position of power in the heavens at the moment of your birth...Your dark hair..your mean stature...tragic losses so young in life... I think I am right in sayin, my dear, that you were born in midwinter?" "No," said Harry, "I was born in July." (This exchange cracks both me and Ron up) Jo Serenadust> >She is describing Harry's distinct characteristics as evidence for >his having a midwinter birthday. I don't see why she would mention >his "average" height as a distinguishing characteristic for those >born in midwinter. In addition to Ron's "midget in glasses" joke, >Harry keeps mentioning his own lack of height in relation to others, >all through the book. Of course, I agree that compared to Ron, >nearly everyone is probably short, but Harry has been described as >being small in each of the first 3 books, and is described >as "skinny" in the second chapter of GoF (although admittedly it >doesn't mention his height in this passage). I don't doubt that at 14/15 he could still have a huge growth spurt that would close the gap between himself and his peers, height-wise, but I still think that Trelawney is describing Harry's stature as small, rather than average. Jo Serenadust Me: I could agree, except that she used "mean" instead of words to describe smallness like; "diminutive," or "miniscule." Mean is average when referring to a person's description. I hate to be this way, but it is. It don't matter how much you don't like it, "mean" equals "average" when you use it to describe a person. I know Harry can still grow and catch up to his peers. I did it. At 14 I was 5'5", then at 16 I was 6 feet. At 17 I was 6' 2 1/2. I started life as smaller than the other kids. I was 5'3 when I was in 7th grade by 12th grade, I was 6 feet 3 and three quarter inches. I didn't start really growing until I was 15. Harry's dad was tall, it's not inconceivable that Harry will be tall too. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Wed Jan 29 20:21:40 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 20:21:40 -0000 Subject: On diverse "mean" meanings (was; midget in glasses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51007 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer " wrote: > Jodel:"The "literary" usage of the therm "mean" has historically been > to signify "lowly". This usage continued in comparitively common > circumstances into at least the early 20th century. ("Down these mean > streets [must go] a man who is not mean, neither tarnished, nor > afraid" --Raymond Chandler in one of his omniciant narriator > interjections.)" > > Of course you are right. Here's the sentence as Trelawney said it: > ""I was saying, my dear, that you were clearly born under the baleful > [harmful] influence of Saturn," said Professor Trelawney....."I was > saying that Saturn was surely in a position of power in the heavens at > the moment of your birth. . . . Your dark hair. . . your mean > stature...tragic losses so young in life. . " > > Now substitute 'average height' into the sentence about Saturn's > baleful influence: > > "Saturn was surely in a position of power in the heavens at the moment > of your birth. . . . Your dark hair. . . your average height...tragic > losses so young in life. . " > > Does that meaning fit Trelawney's umpteenth recap of Harry's hard- luck > life, or does this? > > "Saturn was surely in a position of power in the heavens at the moment > of your birth. . . . Your dark hair. . . your lowly, shabby > stature...tragic losses so young in life. . " > > Sounds more consistent with Trelawney's drift, no? > > Quotes have to be taken in context and account for where the speaker's > coming from. Since Trelawney always seems darn near disappointed > Harry is still breathing, why would she call attention to his > 'average' height? > > Jodel is right, and the literary meaning, as he well put it, is > clearly the correct one. > The zodiacal (?) sign where Saturn is in a position of power (Sun Sign) is Capricorn (Dec 22 - Jan 20). I think that Trelawny was diagnosing Harry as a Capricorn - the 'black hair' 'mean stature' are all characteristics of a 'typical' capricorn STATURE OF SIGNS : Aquarius, Pisces, Aries and Taurus are short; Leo, Virgo, Libra and Scorpio are long and Gemini, Cancer, Sagittarius and Capricorn are of medium stature. Erica (flogging that comatose horse ;) ) From nithya_rachel at hotmail.com Wed Jan 29 21:11:25 2003 From: nithya_rachel at hotmail.com (errolowl ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 21:11:25 -0000 Subject: A midget in glasses, In-Reply-To: <000b01c2c7d0$fc273c70$1ab45a42@falcon> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51008 GoF Chapter 13 "I was saying that Saturn was surely in a position of power in the heavens at the moment of your birth...Your dark hair..your mean stature...tragic losses so young in life... I think I am right in sayin, my dear, that you were born in midwinter?" "No," said Harry, "I was born in July." Jo Serenadust: >Sorry to keep flogging this comatose horse, but I still think that >in the context Trelawney is using "mean" she "means" that Harry is >short (not the mathematical "mean" ie average). Falcon: >>Mathematical or not, when "mean" is used in conjunction with "stature" it is describing a person's average height. The context is that she is talking about his physical description. "Mean" when used to describe someone refers to their average size. << me: I'll have to go with Jo on this one. While the term "mean stature" is used in mathematical and scientific descriptions much as "average height" would be used in everyday conversation, the literary associations imply *less than average* height. In the context that JKR uses this phrase, it carries the negative connotation of being puny. Believe me, I know - -the number of times my literary friends have used that on me as I grew up! This negative connotation is what gives rise to the opposite usage, as in: "He was an author of no mean stature ..." (meaning he had great stature), very similar in usage to: "she owed her success in no small measure to ..." (meaning she greatly owed her success to..) The meaning of these sentences comes from contrasting with the opposite set of circumstances, not just the average. Falcon: >> I could agree, except that she used "mean" instead of words to describe smallness like; "diminutive," or "miniscule." Mean is average when referring to a person's description.<< me: Physical description it might be, but nevertheless a literary description ? not a factual one. Yes, JKR used mean instead of diminutive or miniscule or tiny, but when all three mean the same, you have the freedom of choice. If she had used diminutive instead, would that have meant he was *not* tiny? "Mean stature" is validly and frequently used in the negative. And in the context of Trelawney's speech, I have no doubt that's the right one. Now whether he really *is* puny, or will continue to be so is another debate. True, James is described as tall, thin and black haired, and Harry should be destined for a growth spurt sometime soon. Errol P.S Erica, I've know quite a few capriconians who are exceedingly tall! From amani at charter.net Wed Jan 29 21:34:29 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 16:34:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Will Be Accused and Locked up in Azkaban/ His Escape References: Message-ID: <001401c2c7de$34808420$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51009 Tom: Some good thoughts on how this might come about. After all, you're *all* right - the Death Eaters are going to have to neutralize both Harry and Dumbledore... somehow. And knowing JKR, in order to beef up the tension, they're going to have to at least partially succeed. No: HPFGUIDX 51010 We went many times through all the explanations as for how Lupin could have forgotten his potion and was not reminded by Hermione's guess or even by the prank memories. And frankly, none of the explanations was completely satisfactory. I believe this theory was not presented before, so here it goes: Let's start with the episode in the "Flight of the fat lady" chapter (p.118 of UK hardcover): "I made an entire cauldronful", Snape continued. "If you need more". It follows that the potion dose is not fixed, and that Lupin somehow can determine the correct dose by himself. How he does it? It might be some physical characteristic, but more interesting would be if the dose of the potion is determined by his emotional state. The whole year Lupin makes a point of being perfectly polite and nice to everyone. What if the potion is counteracted by patient's feelings of anger, hate, murderous rage or similar dark emotions? That would explain his transformation without making Lupin senile or in deep denial about his illness. During that evening he experienced some hard feelings towards Black, then Pettigrew and finally Snape - probably enough to neutralize twice his normal dose. So how was that for Lupin's apology? :-) Irene From eloiseherisson at aol.com Wed Jan 29 21:41:47 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 16:41:47 EST Subject: On diverse "mean" meanings Message-ID: <64.2bd975b1.2b69a49b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51011 Erica: (quoting JOdel) >> "Saturn was surely in a position of power in the heavens at the >>moment >> of your birth. . . . Your dark hair. . . your lowly, shabby >> stature...tragic losses so young in life. . " >> >>Sounds more consistent with Trelawney's drift, no? >> >>Quotes have to be taken in context and account for where the >>speaker's >> coming from. Since Trelawney always seems darn near disappointed >> Harry is still breathing, why would she call attention to his >>'average' height? >> And Jim's comment: >>Jodel is right, and the literary meaning, as he well put it, is >> clearly the correct one. > Erica: >The zodiacal (?) sign where Saturn is in a position of power (Sun >Sign) is Capricorn (Dec 22 - Jan 20). I think that Trelawny was >diagnosing Harry as a Capricorn - the 'black hair' 'mean stature' are >all characteristics of a 'typical' capricorn Just putting in my two knuts. Although my husband says the reading isn't clear (too much fog in the crystal ball, perhaps?) I would agree with JOdel and Jim. Trelawney speaks in a more literary than technical manner. According to my dictionary (Oxford Ref.), there are two (out of 6) possibly relevant meanings of mean (adj) : 1) niggardly; not generous or liberal........... 3) (of a person's capacity, understanding, etc) inferior, poor. "Of mean estate" means poor. By analogy, "of mean stature" means short. To use 'mean' in that technical sense would just be unidiomatic English, IMO. Certainly not Trelawney's style. I've never heard anyone use "mean" in conversation in quite that way. Erica: >STATURE OF SIGNS : > >Aquarius, Pisces, Aries and Taurus are short; Leo, Virgo, Libra and >Scorpio are long and Gemini, Cancer, Sagittarius and Capricorn are of >medium stature. > Well, not necessarily in JKR's universe, where mythology and therefore potentially astrology, is adapted to her own whims and needs. ~Eloise (Pisces/Aries cusp and 5' 7", FWIW) From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Wed Jan 29 20:50:18 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 20:50:18 -0000 Subject: More about the wizarding world and empire... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51012 I WROTE (in a previous post): In a secular society, you are just as likely to have immigrants as you are to have third, fourth, fifth and so forth generations of immigrants, some with adapted names, some with their native names. PEN ASKS: I'm not sure what being secular has to do with it. Could you explain? I REPLY: I guess I'd have to say that, from my perspective, a secular society would seem more likely to invite immigration than a non-secular society. At least, I'm hard pressed to name any non-secular societies that ostensibly do encourage immigration. Re-patriation *maybe*, but that's not really the same thing. PEN WROTE: Actually, you are a heck of a lot *more* likely to come across Potters, Grangers, Patils and Changs (I exempt Malfoys from that list) in Britain than to find Costas, Menendezes, Nkrumes, Vladoviches and Muhammeds. Surnames over here, while they are becoming more varied, are still a *lot* less varied than surnames in the USA. I like reading the end credits for American TV programmes - compare the range of names from those to the names at the end of a British programme. What a contrast. END QUOTE. I REPLY: I hadn't really thought of it that way before. I suppose that, once again, this is a great example of me making cultural assumptions. From my perspective, I was pretty much brought up to believe that the Western European nations were just as diverse as the United States, with the two differences being: 1) different cultural cross-sections, based more on colonial associations, but still largely reflecting immigration, and 2) less haughtiness about the melting-pot idea. I WROTE (same earlier post): Although frankly (and the reason I said it was a feeble defense,) I'm not sure that exonerates her... she could be putting more of an effort in to, y'know, indicate diversity at the school. PEN ASKS: Why? I REPLY: Three snipped quotes first: Tom (ME): ...Rowling ...attempts to divert our attention from muggle problems and onto parallel wizard problems, Eloise: She is dealing with RL problems by metaphor, not simply trying to divert attention. IMHO. Ali wrote: In Harry's class, 25% of the named Gryffindors belong to an ethnic minority group. In Britain as a whole, the figure is c.8.8%, and roughly 11% for children. This indicates to me that JKR has attempted to emphasise racial diversity. I CONTINUE: I read the seeming lack of a major minority (heh-heh, major minority) presence in Hogwarts to indicate that it is sort of like an uppity magical prep school, and believed that Rowling was using WW prejudice against giants, say, as a way to discuss the issue without using our regular muggle biases. IMO, a diversion from the reality of the situation. But I like Eloise's "metaphor" better. ;-) Second, I was not aware that the UK's diversity was along the lines that Ali provided above, having (again - shame on me) made a cultural assumption that the UK and most of the Western European nations had a similar racial mix as the United States. But, I'm glad to have learned that this is not the case. As Ali points out, in fact JKR could be perceived, from the British standpoint, to be emphasizing diversity. In such a case, I can comfortably reverse my claim that she's not doing enough. By American standards, and if she were an American author, I'd hold that her inborn prejudices are transparently visible due to the seemingly (again, only by American standards) superficial mention and underdevelopment of all of the minority characters. But if Hogwarts could in fact be perceived as *more* diverse than the U.K. as a whole, then I readily admit that I was wrong, and instead think she should be lauded for her attempt at representing diversity in the school. -Tom From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Wed Jan 29 21:38:48 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 21:38:48 -0000 Subject: Snape and respect In-Reply-To: <01e801c2c7cf$72fdf980$16560043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51013 OPPEN WROTE: >From the first time they met, Professor Snape made it clear that he disliked Harry. In Harry's first day of Potions, Professor Snape went out of his way to single him out for negative attention, throwing question after question at him and then sneering when he couldn't answer. This is not, to put it mildly, a good way to start out a professional (professoral?) relationship... I would have been seething inside had I been in that classroom, even if I wasn't the kid on the spot. I REPLY: I have to disagree with that. There's a theme in that first day in the classroom. Snape mentions it twice by different names. (During roll call:) "Harry Potter. Our new - celebrity." (PS/SS 136) (When Harry can't answer the question:) "Tut, tut - fame clearly isn't everything." (PS/SS 137) Snape has issues with the idea that celebrities get off easy. He had issues with that quality in James Potter, and I believe that Snape is making an example of Harry in front of the class for two reasons: 1) To let HARRY know, in no uncertain terms, that no matter how many professors pander to him and let him get away with whatever he wants because he's "famous Harry Potter," HE, for one, won't be doing that. 2) To let the other kids know the same thing. I'd bet that Snape probably wasn't a very popular student when he was at school. And I'll bet that he probably didn't get away with the stuff that the Marauders did. Why? Because he wasn't popular and on the Quidditch team. And to be fair to Snape, he's not far off. The other teachers, most conspicuously Dumbledore, but also to a lesser extent McGonagall (who, for all of her heavy point-subtraction, *always* lets Harry off if it infringes on Gryffindor's quidditch prospects,) definitely, absolutely just beam at Harry and leave him to his own devices. The things Harry does would result in definite expulsion for students of lesser-importance, but because he's Harry, he gets away with it. And because Harry's friends are HARRY'S friends, they get off too. I mean, come ON: Dumbledore PERSONALLY overturned the official results of the House Cup in PS/SS. Sure, WE know why that happened, and as readers who identify with Harry, WE'RE glad to see him win, but let's face it - that is concrete and indisputable favoritism. What would you do if you were in Slytherin and watched it happen? What would you do if you were Snape and had to play nice professionally? How would you explain it to the students in your house? That can be very demoralizing for kids, and I think that it was probably SUPER demoralizing for Snape. So, that's why I think he's so strict with Harry, and why he gives him no flexibility: because no matter how one looks at it, the other faculty just bend over backwards to accommodate him, despite the fact that he's only a mediocre student, and that he's not very well behaved, either. In other words, Harry gets enough preference. No need to extend it to Potions class too. And, of course, as the series progresses, Harry's palpable disrespect creates this self-fulfilling prophecy. Harry and the trio believe more and more that Snape is out to get them, and so they become more slanderous and accusatory, and this behavior, of course, only increases Snape's disgust with them. -Tom (who just realized that in the past two days he's trashed Harry and Dumbledore and defended Snape twice, and that this is a most unforeseen turn of events that he never could have predicted upon his first completion of the books, but one that he firmly believes is a testament to the power of JK Rowling's imagination and talent.) From eschaafin at yahoo.com Wed Jan 29 21:51:09 2003 From: eschaafin at yahoo.com (Sophie ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 21:51:09 -0000 Subject: Harry's Wand Conjures the Dark Mark - Significance? In-Reply-To: <003f01c2c7c1$4766f320$2101a8c0@ACTIONSTEEL.COM> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51014 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve Binch" wrote: > I was just re-listening to GoF and was wondering what significance there is > in Barty Jr. using Harry's wand to conjure the dark mark I've wondered the same thing; I haven't read it recently, but on reading this post and the replies, I started to wonder if jr. intended to hold onto the wand. Is it explained why he dropped it? Was it merely because he was done with it. What bothers me, is that he went to great lengths to get it. I suppose jr would have been sitting in the box regardless of whether Harry was there, but does it then follow that he would have taken anybodys wand, and he was just lucky that Harry happened to be in front of him? "Sophie" From mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 29 21:59:55 2003 From: mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com (Edward Post) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 16:59:55 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Wand Conjures the Dark Mark - Significance? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51015 On the issue of the playback of Harry's wand: Ed (moi) said: One possibility: If, as has been theorized around here lately, Harry is made to defend himself against accusations of his dark tendencies, the fact that his wand conjured the Dark Mark might be used as evidence against him. > >To which Patty asked: > >Would it even be necessary to have the spells replayed from Harry's wand >since Barty Jr. had confessed, in front of four witnesses, that it was he >(Barty Jr.) who conjoured the Dark Mark? > >Patty > > To which Ed merely replies: it wouldn't be necessary in a WW where everybody believes everybody else. But, if the future holds the Dumbledore "side" as opposed to the "Fudge" side, the witnesses might be split and only have their words to back them up. The courtroom would be full of "Objection! Hearsay!" The wand replay would be considered more objective evidence. Ed _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 29 22:20:00 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214 ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 22:20:00 -0000 Subject: Snape and respect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51016 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall " wrote: > I have to disagree with that. There's a theme > in that first day in the classroom. Snape mentions > it twice by different names. > > (During roll call:) > "Harry Potter. Our new - celebrity." > (PS/SS 136) > > (When Harry can't answer the question:) > "Tut, tut - fame clearly isn't everything." > (PS/SS 137) Oh, I respectfully disagree. The only theme I saw in that classroom was bullying of eleven year old boy by his teacher, who as it turned out later has a twenty year old grudge against this boy's dead father (for saving his life, no less) and since he can't fight with James, he would make life miserable for Harry. I believe that Snape is making > an example of Harry in front of the class for two > reasons: > > 1) To let HARRY know, in no uncertain terms, that > no matter how many professors pander to him and > let him get away with whatever he wants because > he's "famous Harry Potter," HE, for one, won't > be doing that. I am repeating myself all over again, but how is it Harry's fault that he is famous? He did not ask for his fame, he clearly does not want it. If Snape is gealous of Harry, I would say tough. > The things Harry does would result in definite > expulsion for students of lesser-importance, but > because he's Harry, he gets away with it. Or maybe Harry gets away with some rule breaking (which he usually does for selfless reasons - most of time anyway) because teachers in Hogwarts know that this child is wizarding world's best chance to beat Voldemort. > I mean, come ON: Dumbledore PERSONALLY overturned > the official results of the House Cup in PS/SS. Sure, > WE know why that happened, and as readers who identify > with Harry, WE'RE glad to see him win, but let's face > it - that is concrete and indisputable favoritism. So, Harry and Co did not deserve the points for defeating Quirrelmort? I think that this was justice, not favouritism. Sure, Dumbledore could award points earlier and not make show out of it at the feast, but it does not change the fact that those points were earned, in my opinion. > That can be very demoralizing for kids, and I think > that it was probably SUPER demoralizing for Snape. Bully for them, especially for Malfoy, who made the trio lose points practically for visiting Hagrid only. > In other words, Harry gets enough preference. No > need to extend it to Potions class too. How about some fairness or is it to much to ask of Snape too? Alla, who actually likes Snape, except when he bullies children. From stbinch at actionsd.com Wed Jan 29 22:30:03 2003 From: stbinch at actionsd.com (Steve Binch) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 15:30:03 -0700 Subject: Harry's Wand Conjures the Dark Mark - Significance? References: <1043878169.10076.63962.m1@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <006301c2c7e5$f758def0$2101a8c0@ACTIONSTEEL.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 51017 On Wed, Jan 29, 2003 at 11:07:25AM -0700, I wrote: > I was just re-listening to GoF and was wondering what significance there is > in Barty Jr. using Harry's wand to conjure the dark mark. JKR could have had > Jr. use any wand, but she made it Harry's wand. Has there been any relavence > to this later in the book? On Wed, 29 Jan 2003 20:34:27 +0100, Trond Michelsen replied: >Depends on how you define "relevance" I think. It's a sneaky way of >demonstrating the effect of Priori Incantatem for the reader, so that >they'll recognize it in the graveyard scene. Me again: I overlooked the whole Priori Incantatem thing. That satisfies my desire to find significance in the use of Harry's wand. Thank you very much to the haggle of you that answered that for me. -Steve From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Jan 29 23:03:00 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 23:03:00 -0000 Subject: Means Stature (was: midget in glasses,) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51018 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "serenadust " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Erica " > wrote: > > > Yes compared with Ron, Harry has a 'lack of height' ...edited... > > Harry is of average stature; ...edited... There is, for all > > appearances, nothing 'extraordinary' about him. > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Jo Serenadust replied: > > Sorry to keep flogging this comatose horse, but I still think that > in the context Trelawney is using "mean" she "means" that Harry is > short (not the mathematical "mean" ie average). > > GoF Chapter 13 > > "I was saying that Saturn was surely in a position of power in the > heavens at the moment of your birth...Your dark hair..your mean > stature...tragic losses so young in life... I think I am right in > sayin, my dear, that you were born in midwinter?" > > "No," said Harry, "I was born in July." > > (This exchange cracks both me and Ron up) > > ...edited... I don't see why she would mention his "average" > height as a distinguishing characteristic for those born in > midwinter. > > ..edited... I still think that Trelawney is describing Harry's > stature as small, rather than average. > > Jo Serenadust bboy_mn: Well, you will double pardon me for going beyond whipping a dead horse to kicking his rotting carcass. Sadly, I interpreted the 'mean stature' phrase to indicate Harry's demeanor; Harry being dark, quiet, and introspective. The dark, quiet, brooding, and introspective characteristics all seemed to be traites of a 'winter' person. Although, upon reading this thread, it becomes obvious that 'mean stature' is similar to 'average height'. Maybe the implication is that people born in the winter are stunted, they don't thrive and flourish as rapidly as someone born in the spring. I guess if I apply the 'stunted' concept, I can see Trelawney implying that. Just to belabor the point even more, isn't there a difference between average and mean. In a statistical analysis, isn't it possible for the mean and the average to be two different points on the chart. To some extent, doesn't a mean have to be a real data point, whereas an average is a calculation of the middle range of values which yeilds a data point that may not actually exist in the data set? (Did any of that make sense?) Anyway from a logical perspective, the 'dark, quiet, brooding' made sense in reference to the description of a winter person which is why I went with it, but in hindsight and in view of this discussion, it seems pretty clear that I was wrong. Just a thought or two. bboy_mn From drednort at alphalink.com.au Wed Jan 29 23:09:19 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 10:09:19 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and respect In-Reply-To: References: <01e801c2c7cf$72fdf980$16560043@hppav> Message-ID: <3E38F9CF.5833.35687FC@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 51019 On 29 Jan 2003 at 21:38, Tom Wall thomasmwall at yahoo.co wrote: > In other words, Harry gets enough preference. No > need to extend it to Potions class too. You know, I might have been able to accept the idea that Snape isn't just cruel or mean, except for one thing. Let me explain. I had teachers that were rather 'Snapish' in many ways. Some were quite cutting etc. I didn't like them, but I could respect them, because I knew that deep down they were trying to do what they felt was right. I don't believe they were necessarily right about that - but the beliefs seemed sincere. They were trying to do the right thing by the kids they taught. And so, reading the HP books, I could give Snape the benefit of the doubt - I could conceive he might genuinely have the best interest of his students at heart, even if it wasn't apparent. Then he lost me. Page 263 of Goblet of Fire (Australian printing). The incident with Hermione's teeth. "'Malfoy got Hermione!' Ron said, 'Look!' He forced Hermione to show Snape her teeth - she was doing her best to hide them with her hands, though this was difficult as they had now grown down past her collar. Pansy Parkinson and the other Slytherin girls were doubled up with silent giggles, pointing at Hermione from behind Snape's back. Snape looked coldly at Hermione, then said, 'I see no difference.' Hermione let out a whimper; her eyes filled with tears, she turned on her heel and ran, ran all the way up the corridor and out of sight." That lost me. That was a totally blatant act of cruelty. Try as I might, I *cannot* find a justification for it. There could be no educational purpose to it. None whatsoever. The pause in which he looked at her, means it can't be dismissed as spur of the moment - it was deliberate cruelty. I could to an extent understand it if it had been Harry - I might have been able to put that down to personal animus (which while disgusting if a teacher allows it to influence their relationship with a student is at least understandable), or to his need to 'maintain a cover'. But not with Hermione. I mean - even Ron seemed to think Snape would deal with this - he forced Hermione to show Snape what had happened. Ron knows what Snape is like - but he still expected this to be dealt with. Snape's response was a total betrayal of everything a teacher should be. He didn't need to make a fuss. He could have handled it precisely the same way he did with Goyle's boils - a calm instruction to go to the hospital wing. But he was a teacher facing a child with a medical issue. She was 'panic-stricken', had 'let out a terrified cry.' While some things can be put down to teaching style, etc, there is only one acceptable response in that situation. And Snape failed. Absolutely and totally. I personally think kids owe adults respect. I think pupils owe their teachers courtesy, and respect - I'm old fashioned in that regard. But Snape lost all that right at that point. Understand that - I think he lost something I more or less assume is a basic right. That's how revolted, I was by that incident. I could accept everything else. But not that. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Wed Jan 29 23:20:42 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 23:20:42 -0000 Subject: On diverse "mean" meanings In-Reply-To: <64.2bd975b1.2b69a49b@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51020 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, eloiseherisson at a... wrote: > Erica: > (quoting JOdel) > >> "Saturn was surely in a position of power in the heavens at the > >>moment > >> of your birth. . . . Your dark hair. . . your lowly, shabby > >> stature...tragic losses so young in life. . " > >> > >>Sounds more consistent with Trelawney's drift, no? > >> > >>Quotes have to be taken in context and account for where the > >>speaker's > >> coming from. Since Trelawney always seems darn near disappointed > >> Harry is still breathing, why would she call attention to his > >>'average' height? > >> > And Jim's comment: > >>Jodel is right, and the literary meaning, as he well put it, is > >> clearly the correct one. > > > Erica: > >The zodiacal (?) sign where Saturn is in a position of power (Sun > >Sign) is Capricorn (Dec 22 - Jan 20). I think that Trelawny was > >diagnosing Harry as a Capricorn - the 'black hair' 'mean stature' are > >all characteristics of a 'typical' capricorn > > Just putting in my two knuts. > Although my husband says the reading isn't clear (too much fog in the crystal > ball, perhaps?) I would agree with JOdel and Jim. Trelawney speaks in a more > literary than technical manner. > > According to my dictionary (Oxford Ref.), there are two (out of 6) possibly > relevant meanings of mean (adj) : 1) niggardly; not generous or > liberal........... 3) (of a person's capacity, understanding, etc) inferior, > poor. > > "Of mean estate" means poor. By analogy, "of mean stature" means short. > To use 'mean' in that technical sense would just be unidiomatic English, IMO. > Certainly not Trelawney's style. I've never heard anyone use "mean" in > conversation in quite that way. > > Erica: > >STATURE OF SIGNS : > > > >Aquarius, Pisces, Aries and Taurus are short; Leo, Virgo, Libra and > >Scorpio are long and Gemini, Cancer, Sagittarius and Capricorn are of > >medium stature. > > > > Well, not necessarily in JKR's universe, where mythology and therefore > potentially astrology, is adapted to her own whims and needs. > > ~Eloise > (Pisces/Aries cusp and 5' 7", FWIW) (the horse, long past dead, is now gamboling in the Elysian Fields) I think that aside from the various magic 'spells' JKR does indeed stay very close to existing lore wrt mythology, astrology etc. (Nicolas Flamel and Phil. stone, etc). Trelawny is introducing her class to the art and science of astrology "The movement of the planets and the mysterious portents they reveal, blah, blah, blah" (later in the class they go on to calculate their own birth charts ...) Trelawny looks at Harry and ticks off what she see's as the qualities he possesses that are indicative of Saturn having a "position of power" at his birth: 1)Dark Hair - physical attribute, 2) Mean Stature - another physical attribute (what would she know of Harry's paucity living with the Dursley's) indicating that he has 'middling' stature (er, hobbit-like ?) 3) tragic losses early in life - Saturn is symbolic of losses and destruction Of course, being the *excellent* divinator that she is, she's right on the mark, isn't she ;) Erica (Virgo/Taurus Rising) :D From StarHermione86 at cs.com Wed Jan 29 23:22:31 2003 From: StarHermione86 at cs.com (StarHermione86 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 18:22:31 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Oops! Dumbledore did it again! Message-ID: <1e1.a89842.2b69bc37@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51021 In a message dated 1/28/03 3:17:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, tahewitt at yahoo.com writes: > I don't have the books in front of me (I'm wasting > time at work!) but one example I can think of is the > Mirror of Erised in PS/SS. Isn't it possible that it > was placed where Dumbledore knew Harry would find it, > and learn how it works, before he HAD to use it to get > the stone? If so, doesn't that point to Dumbledore > training Harry? > > The thing about the first book, however, is that the stone would have actually been *safer* if Harry had not interfered. Voldemort/Quirrell could have stood there all night, did all the hocus pocus imaginable and still could not have gotten the stone out of that mirror because of selfish motives. In every other book Harry's help has been needed, but in the first book I think Harry just stuck his nose in where it didn't belong. Still love him for it, though. Sheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From divaclv at aol.com Wed Jan 29 23:35:28 2003 From: divaclv at aol.com (c_voth312 ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 23:35:28 -0000 Subject: Snape and respect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51022 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214 " wrote: > > I believe that Snape is making > > an example of Harry in front of the class for two > > reasons: > > > > 1) To let HARRY know, in no uncertain terms, that > > no matter how many professors pander to him and > > let him get away with whatever he wants because > > he's "famous Harry Potter," HE, for one, won't > > be doing that. > > I am repeating myself all over again, but how is it Harry's fault > that he is famous? He did not ask for his fame, he clearly does not > want it. If Snape is gealous of Harry, I would say tough. > My thoughts exactly. The impression I get of Snape (this is more a personal opinion than anything hard-and-fast in cannon) is that he feels he's superior, and he wants that superiority acknowledged-- which, if you think about it, points to a deep-seated insecurity. His ridicule of Harry is not so much a rejection of Harry's celebrity but an expression of bitterness that he, Snape, has not gotten the recognition which he feels he deserves. > > > The things Harry does would result in definite > > expulsion for students of lesser-importance, but > > because he's Harry, he gets away with it. > Or maybe Harry gets away with some rule breaking (which he usually > does for selfless reasons - most of time anyway) because teachers in > Hogwarts know that this child is wizarding world's best chance to > beat Voldemort. > I think the "greater good" factor plays heavily in here too, especially where Dumbledore is concerned: Harry and his friends do break the rules, but they frequently (albiet, not always) do so in the pursuit of a higher purpose--keeping Voldemort from returning, saving their classmates, etc. I would also like to point out that there are better ways of handling discipline than Snape's. Lupin also chastises Harry for slipping out to Hogsmeade against regulations, and you can tell his comparitively restrained lecture has a greater effect on Harry than all Snape's ranting and ridicule can manage. Finally, it is true that McGonagall will bend the rules for the sake of her Gryffindor pride on occasion, but on the whole Snape's more blatant when it comes to house favoritism. ~Christi, who does like Snape but thinks he needs a slap upside the head and will probably get it sometime during Book 5 From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jan 29 23:38:29 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 23:38:29 -0000 Subject: Snape and respect In-Reply-To: <3E38F9CF.5833.35687FC@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51023 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: You know, I might have been able to accept the idea that Snape isn't just cruel or mean, except for one thing. > Then he lost me. Page 263 of Goblet of Fire (Australian printing). The incident with Hermione's teeth. > I agree the incident is revolting, if you think of Snape as the teacher of a a fourteen-year-old school girl. But Hermione made herself something else when she followed Harry past the Trapdoor in Book One. Hermione is a fourteen year old soldier. She shouldn't have to be. But she is...and if something like that happens when she's facing an adult Death Eater, she'll die while she's covering her teeth and snivelling. What Snape did was cruel--but if it saves her life, it will be worth it. Most people in the wizarding world treat Harry, and probably Neville, too, with kid gloves. If Snape weren't harsh with them, they would probably think that every adult in the wizarding world was their friend. Unfortunately, that's not true. They have enemies, and those enemies are at pains not to appear "less than fond of Harry Potter," to quote Lucius Malfoy. So I think Snape is just as harsh as he appears to be, but not without purpose. Pippin From skelkins at attbi.com Wed Jan 29 23:47:30 2003 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 23:47:30 -0000 Subject: Crouch's memory (was: Re: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51024 Derannimer wrote: > By the way, in a rather serious footnote: Elkins, do you > think that Mr. Crouch's inability to recognize other people's > identities has anything to do with his cronic inability to > remember his assistant's *name?*) Heh. I have no idea if "cronic" was intended as a pun or was just a typo, but it amused me no end to read it as the former, given my reading of Crouch-as-Saturn. Yeah, thematically, I do view Crouch's inability to remember Percy's name in just that light. I also think that it serves to emphasize that whole "misplaced loyalty" motif for Percy, whom I see as being a bit of a double to Crouch Jr. in this story. Poor Percy just *idolizes* this man, and he seems to be rapidly transferring his filial devotion onto him, and yet Crouch can't even be bothered to get his name right. Just like Voldemort never came to save Barty Jr. from the dementor. ;-) I also think that the whole "Weatherby" schtick, while it obviously serves mainly as a comedy routine, also may help to facilitate the Whodunnit aspect of the story. In and of itself, it's just humorous, a joke on Percy. But combined with all of the other strange or dodgy things that the author keeps handed us about Crouch, I wonder if it might not also take on faintly sinister connotations, thus serving to subtly reinforce Crouch's role as red herring. Certainly, something about that stand-alone sentence about Crouch leaving the tea undrunk has always read to me like a deliberate authorial attempt at misdirection. I think that it does come across as a "clue," although in the end, it's nothing but a false lead. On the more mundane plot level, though -- in terms of Crouch's character as a person? Hmmm. Well, I'd certainly say that it speaks to a certain tellingly high level of self- absorption, much as does his refusal to take so much of a *sip* of the tea that Percy so eagerly offers him at the QWC (honestly, now! Would it have killed the man to have taken just one polite *sip?*). Of course, Crouch would have been unusually stressed and distracted at the time that Percy started working for him. Percy would have started working for him at just about the same time that he would have started fretting about Bertha Jorkins' disappearance. I'm sure that he was also feeling stressed about his plan to take his son to the upcoming QWC. And of course, he would have been very busy plannning the Tournament, as well. Given all of that, I guess that maybe it's a little bit less surprising that his new employee's name somehow never properly registered with him, although it still does snap my suspenders of disbelief just a tiny bit. It snaps my suspenders mainly, I think, because I just find it so hard to believe that even under somewhat adverse circumstances, Crouch wouldn't have been able to muster better interpersonal skills than those we see him display in canon. He *was* a successful politician, after all, and while I myself share Meira's difficulty with remembering people's names, successful politicians don't. Successful politicians *learn* the trick of getting people's names right -- and then of remembering them. They also know that they're supposed to sip the tea. ;-) Also, I really do find it hard to imagine how even an unusually stressed and distracted Crouch could have failed to know Percy's name, given that (a) he did know Arthur, and (b) everyone else in the wizarding world seems to be able to spot a Weasley a mile off. Even the eleven-year-old *Draco* knows a Weasley when he sees one. So it does seem strange to me that it wouldn't have occurred to Crouch that his new red-haired-worker-who-has-some-name-beginning-with-a-W really *must* have been a Weasley. One possibility that has occurred to me is that Crouch's powers of focus and attention might have been getting subtly sapped by his son's growing Imperius resistance. Where's the cause and where the effect here? Was Barty Jr. finding it easier to resist because his father was going into a mental decline? Or was it because Voldemort's return to corporeal Ugly!Baby form was strengthening young Crouch's will, which in turn then had an insidious yet negative effect on his father's powers of memory and concentration? I'm partial to the latter theory, myself. -- Elkins (glad that Derannimer liked the Crouch posts so much and currently trying to respond to Eileen's responses *without* getting into the hundreds-of-pages-long problem.) From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Wed Jan 29 23:55:16 2003 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 23:55:16 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and respect References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51025 Pippen: "She shouldn't have to be. But she is...and if something like that happens when she's facing an adult Death Eater, she'll die while she's covering her teeth and snivelling. What Snape did was cruel--but if it saves her life, it will be worth it." Me: I agree, and I think there's another point to it. Such blatant Sytherian favouritism can't be good for them, so Snape is weakening the people who are most likely to join Voldemort. Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 00:23:02 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 16:23:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] A theory of Lupin's transformation In-Reply-To: <3E384916.6040108@btopenworld.com> Message-ID: <20030130002302.6197.qmail@web40504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51026 Irene Mikhlin wrote: We went many times through all the explanations as for how Lupin could have forgotten his potion and was not reminded by Hermione's guess or even by the prank memories. And frankly, none of the explanations was completely satisfactory. I believe this theory was not presented before, so here it goes: Let's start with the episode in the "Flight of the fat lady" chapter (p.118 of UK hardcover): "I made an entire cauldronful", Snape continued. "If you need more". It follows that the potion dose is not fixed, and that Lupin somehow can determine the correct dose by himself. How he does it? It might be some physical characteristic, but more interesting would be if the dose of the potion is determined by his emotional state. The whole year Lupin makes a point of being perfectly polite and nice to everyone. What if the potion is counteracted by patient's feelings of anger, hate, murderous rage or similar dark emotions? That would explain his transformation without making Lupin senile or in deep denial about his illness. During that evening he experienced some hard feelings towards Black, then Pettigrew and finally Snape - probably enough to neutralize twice his normal dose. So how was that for Lupin's apology? :-) Me: You know, I'm first to defend Lupin if anything :-), but I don't think your theory works, although it's very interesting. Snape *says* to Lupin in the Shrieking Shack that he'd forgotten to take his potion. I think that "I made an entire cauldronful", Snape continued. "If you need more" can be explained thus: Suppose Lupin accidentally knocks over the goblet with the potion - anything can happen. If Snape makes just enough potion for 7 gobletfuls, Lupin is in trouble. So Snape makes extra, and tells Lupin about it just in case. But I don't think Lupin really needs that apology. *Everybody* in the Shrieking Shack behaved strangely. I never, ever thought that Harry would seriously contemplate *murdering* somebody, and I certainly never thought I'd see such irrational actions and words from Snape. That whole scene was almost grotesque, really. I can just imagine - a greenish Ron with his leg stuck out at a strange angle, trying to contain a bony balding rat that keeps squeaking and biting, Hermione just standing there, not knowing what to do, Sirius Black-the-escaped-convict-with-an-Edmond-Dantes-look-about-him, lying on the floor with a huge orange cat with hair standing on end like it's been electrocuted on his chest, and The Boy Who Lived pointing his wand at him. That alone would make anyone forget whatever other important things they might have in mind. Add to it the just-acquired knowledge that one of your friends who you had thought was dead is in fact alive, and that the escaped convict friend is about to be blasted apart by the son of your yet another friend is innocent, and then just toss in Snape's later promises about getting a good-night kiss from a couple of dementors... But of course you've heard all that before... :) I don't hesitate to say, however, that Lupin *should* have remembered about the full moon, especially since Snape himself reminded Lupin of the potion he needed to take when they were having that jolly one-sided conversation in the Shack, but I can understand it and I do forgive him. Regards, Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Jan 30 00:35:20 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 11:35:20 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and respect In-Reply-To: References: <3E38F9CF.5833.35687FC@localhost> Message-ID: <3E390DF8.6385.3A54E68@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 51027 On 29 Jan 2003 at 23:38, pippin_999 foxmoth at qnet.com wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" > wrote: > You know, I might have been able to accept the idea that Snape > isn't just cruel or mean, except for one thing. > > > Then he lost me. Page 263 of Goblet of Fire (Australian > printing). The incident with Hermione's teeth. > > > > I agree the incident is revolting, if you think of Snape as the > teacher of a a fourteen-year-old school girl. But Hermione made > herself something else when she followed Harry past the > Trapdoor in Book One. Hermione is a fourteen year old soldier. Even if I accept that's true - and I do to an extent - even if I accept that Hermione is a soldier, for that to even start to excuse Snape's behaviour, he'd have to be a drill instructor. I don't believe he is. He's a teacher. She is a school girl. A teacher should *never* lose sight of that, even if the child does. A teacher can certainly be more than just a teacher - but even if they are, it is my personal view that they are not permitted to lose sight of the fact that they are a teacher, and they are dealing with a child. That should be at the core of every interaction they have with a child in their care. > She shouldn't have to be. But she is...and if something like that > happens when she's facing an adult Death Eater, she'll die while > she's covering her teeth and snivelling. What Snape did was > cruel--but if it saves her life, it will be worth it. I don't agree. I should stress that all of this is just personal opinion and experience. I was a wimp at school. I was bullied, but I was also a 'crybaby', a 'wimp'. When people teased me I did collapse into tears at times. Even at age 16 or so. I also jumped in front of a moving train to drag a younger boy to safety (note - this wasn't an act of heroism. I knew I could do it, and I knew I had just enough time to get us both to safety.) When a fire started in a chemistry lab, I grabbed and operated a fire extinguisher and put it out. I stood between the same bullies who terrified me and made my life a misery when they attacked me, to keep them away from younger boys and I did so without any real fear. There are times you need to be brave, there are times you need to fight to defend things you hold dear. And there are times when it's OK to cry. Times when it's fine to be upset. Times in a fourteen year old soldiers life when it's ok to be a little girl. Hermione has shown her courage. She's done what has to be done when she has had to do it. The fact that in a corridor outside a classroom, with teachers around, she was upset and hurt, has no bearing on how she will act in a case where she must act. If she was untested and untried, it might be a different matter. But she has proven herself, so I can't see anything to be gained by Snape's action. The fact that she is a 'soldier', IMHO, actually makes Snapes actions even more revolting. She's a child who has had to become something more than a child. There are times in her life, when she doesn't have the luxury to be a normal kid with normal feelings. That makes those times when she has that freedom all the more precious, and all the more important. She wasn't fighting for her life. She wasn't in a situation where she had to act or die. She was in a school, in the presence of a teacher and she had a *right* to expect to be treated as what she had the luxury to be at that moment. A child in distress. Snape didn't teach her a thing. > Most people in the wizarding world treat Harry, and probably > Neville, too, with kid gloves. If Snape weren't harsh with them, > they would probably think that every adult in the wizarding world > was their friend. Yes, and as I said, I can accept everything else, except this particular incident. This is the single incident that I cannot see a justification for. I can understand there may be real motivations and justifications for most of what Snape does. But not this. > Unfortunately, that's not true. They have enemies, and those > enemies are at pains not to appear "less than fond of Harry > Potter," to quote Lucius Malfoy. > > So I think Snape is just as harsh as he appears to be, but not > without purpose. I would agree - except for this one incident. I think it goes beyond the pale. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From risako at nexusanime.com Wed Jan 29 23:02:09 2003 From: risako at nexusanime.com (Melissa McCarthy) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 19:02:09 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and respect References: Message-ID: <004501c2c7ea$747207a0$40a794d1@vaio> No: HPFGUIDX 51028 Tom Wall said: > > I have to disagree with that. There's a theme > > in that first day in the classroom. Snape mentions > > it twice by different names. [edit] Alla said: > Oh, I respectfully disagree. The only theme I saw in that classroom > was bullying of eleven year old boy by his teacher, who as it turned > out later has a twenty year old grudge against this boy's dead father > (for saving his life, no less) and since he can't fight with James, > he would make life miserable for Harry. I agree with Alla. I spent much of the first books trying to like Snape, largely because Dumbledore trusts him, but these incidents of bullying made it difficult. The last straw for me came in GoF, chapter 18, when Hermione's teeth are hit by a spell and grow past her chin, and his only reaction is to say, "I see no difference." That was cruel and unprofessional. Snape is a teacher, an adult. It's one thing for Malfoy's group and Harry's group to be tossing insults back and forth, but he has a duty to be above that. No matter how hard I try, I just can't like Snape. Alla said: > I am repeating myself all over again, but how is it Harry's fault > that he is famous? He did not ask for his fame, he clearly does not > want it. If Snape is gealous of Harry, I would say tough. I agree, and I would also say that it's about time Snape got over himself. Some amount of favouritism toward the Slytherins is probably inescapable, since he is after all the Head of Slytherin, but again, the man is supposed to be an adult, for goodness' sake. Melissa, who originally typed "he is after all the Heir of Slytherin"... and wouldn't *that* be an interesting plot twist! From BriBearBaby at backstreet-wallpaper.net Wed Jan 29 23:02:38 2003 From: BriBearBaby at backstreet-wallpaper.net (Patty) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 18:02:38 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Wand Conjures the Dark Mark - Significance? References: Message-ID: <00c201c2c7ea$baaefca0$0101a8c0@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 51029 On the issue of the playback of Harry's wand: Ed (moi) said: One possibility: If, as has been theorized around here lately, Harry is made to defend himself against accusations of his dark tendencies, the fact that his wand conjured the Dark Mark might be used as evidence against him. > >To which Patty asked: > >Would it even be necessary to have the spells replayed from Harry's wand >since Barty Jr. had confessed, in front of four witnesses, that it was he >(Barty Jr.) who conjoured the Dark Mark? > >Patty > > To which Ed merely replies: it wouldn't be necessary in a WW where everybody believes everybody else. But, if the future holds the Dumbledore "side" as opposed to the "Fudge" side, the witnesses might be split and only have their words to back them up. The courtroom would be full of "Objection! Hearsay!" The wand replay would be considered more objective evidence. Ed To which Patty replies: It would be evidence of whose wand conjoured the Dark Mark, but not of the wizard behind the wand. Patty [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From falcon21 at flash.net Wed Jan 29 22:26:10 2003 From: falcon21 at flash.net (Falcon) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 16:26:10 -0600 Subject: On diverse "mean" meanings (was; midget in glasses) References: Message-ID: <000801c2c7e5$6d530230$eeb45a42@falcon> No: HPFGUIDX 51030 Jim Ferer> > > "Saturn was surely in a position of power in the heavens at the > moment > > of your birth. . . . Your dark hair. . . your lowly, shabby > > stature...tragic losses so young in life. . " > > > > Sounds more consistent with Trelawney's drift, no? > > > > Quotes have to be taken in context and account for where the > speaker's > > coming from. Since Trelawney always seems darn near disappointed > > Harry is still breathing, why would she call attention to his > > 'average' height? > > > > Jodel is right, and the literary meaning, as he well put it, is > > clearly the correct one. > > > > > > > > Me: When refering to a person, Mean means average. When refering > to streets, it means run down, shabby, bad part of town type thing. > Good points, but "lowly, shabby" would be more suited to Ron. Harry > may be parentless, but that don't mean he's a beggar. Harry has > money, he has prestige, he has importance. "Lowly, shabby" don't > apply to him. In this context she is refering to his physical > description, ie... his physical form. Height, weight, hair > color. "Dark hair" begins the sentence, showing that she is refering > to his physical form. "Lowly, shabby" wouldn't apply to his physical > form, but rather to his station in life. The next sentence deals with > his family or lack thereof. And, the reason she would call attention > to his "average height" is this; How many of y'all caught that Harry > has actually grown quite a bit since PoA. He always describes himself > as short, and skinny, but in GoF, he dropped the "short" from his > description of himself. Now, we have him no longer refering to > himself as "short" then Trelawney points out his "mean stature." I'm > sorry, but it seems like a lot of the readers missed that part, or > took it to mean "small". How many of Harry's classmates would > automatically know what "mean stature" meant? They probably took it > as "small" as well. > > Falcon From sushi at societyhappens.com Thu Jan 30 00:42:26 2003 From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 18:42:26 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A theory of Lupin's transformation In-Reply-To: <20030130002302.6197.qmail@web40504.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3E384916.6040108@btopenworld.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030129183008.00da4a40@mail.societyhappens.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51031 Maria wrote: >I don't hesitate to say, however, that Lupin *should* have remembered >about the full moon, especially since Snape himself reminded Lupin of the >potion he needed to take when they were having that jolly one-sided >conversation in the Shack, but I can understand it and I do forgive him. I have to disagree here. Taking astronomy and phases of the moon into consideration, either Remus or Severus screwed up big time. The full moon does not rise at sunset. It rises at noon, and sets at midnight, meaning that Lupin would have been susceptible at any point between those two times. The only logical explanation I've got is that the dose is effective for somewhere between 24 and 36 hours (since Snape brought it in during the afternoon on the Hogsmeade day), and it just happened to wear off as they were leaving the Shack. Severus brought it within the conscripted time limit, but there was no werewolf to take it. This leads to two possible conclusions: 1. Remus screwed up. Remus really, really screwed up. Unless he honestly believed that a conspiracy that had gone on for twelve years could be sorted in less than an hour, there's no way to forgive what could have been a much, much larger disaster. Reliance on Sirius to hold him off can't be argued, as if the transformation had taken place in the Shack he might have ripped any of them to shreds before Sirius could transform. 2. Severus screwed up by not bringing the potion earlier in the day. However, he had no idea that Lupin was going to jaunt off to the Shrieking Shack an hour before he needed to take his potion. So we can forgive him. Sort of. In my opinion, the bulk of the blame falls on Remus. He should have known better. (You have to take into account, too, that even though he saw Pettigrew being taken into the tunnel via the map he had no way of knowing that Sirius was trustworthy. For all he knew, they might have both been in on it.) It's a good example of good intentions leading straight to Hell. I'm not anti-Remus, btw, I'm just trying to look at the situation logically. :) Sorry if this is out of turn or has been discussed before. Sushi, who actually likes Fuzzbutt (as she's dubbed him in her head - long story, don't ask) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gansecki at hawaii.edu Wed Jan 29 22:55:17 2003 From: gansecki at hawaii.edu (lavaluvn ) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 22:55:17 -0000 Subject: A midget in glasses, In-Reply-To: <000b01c2c7d0$fc273c70$1ab45a42@falcon> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51032 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Falcon" wrote: > Mathematical or not, when "mean" is used in conjunction with "stature" it is describing a person's average height. The context is that she is talking about his physical description. "Mean" when used to describe someone refers to their average size. It don't matter how much you disagree with it, that's the way it is. Sorry to be like this, but it seems like no one is willing to let the boy grow. Most want him to remain short and skinny, when his father was tall, so he could very well get tall. I don't know what the British consider average height, maybe someone could enlighten us. I see Ron as around 6 feet tall, and Harry is probably between 5 feet 7 inches, and 6 feet tall. That's about average. > Me: No, no, no, no absolutely not. "Mean" as a statistical term refers to a POPULATION. E.g., the mean height of 14 year old boys is 5'3" (or whatever). One person's height is not a population. Harry is a certain height at any given time, you can't talk about HIS mean height, unless you want to average it over several years/months, which wouldn't make any sense. "Mean" as a literary adjective usually does give the sense of small/ stingy. A mean serving of gruel for the starving orphans, his mean stature. It is a little old fashioned, but common enough to be recognizable. In fact, the old Webster's I just grabbed to double-check my rant has for the first definition of mean: "humble in rank or birth, stingy, etc". Thus Ron's joke about the midget in glasses. I think Harry has yet to hit his growth spurt and when he does, we will know for sure ("Harry seemed to have shot up over the summer and now towered over Hermione..."). We should expect it eventually; as you say, his father was also tall. My 2 cents, Dr.Cheryl From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Thu Jan 30 00:49:51 2003 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 00:49:51 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A theory of Lupin's transformation References: <20030130002302.6197.qmail@web40504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3E3876AF.2090904@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51033 Maria Kirilenko wrote: > > You know, I'm first to defend Lupin if anything :-), but I don't think your theory works, although it's very interesting. Snape *says* to Lupin in the Shrieking Shack that he'd forgotten to take his potion. > > I think that "I made an entire cauldronful", Snape continued. "If you need more" can be explained thus: > > Suppose Lupin accidentally knocks over the goblet with the potion - anything can happen. If Snape makes just enough potion for 7 gobletfuls, Lupin is in trouble. So Snape makes extra, and tells Lupin about it just in case. Is it established that Lupin takes the potion for a week before the full moon? And Lupin answers Snape: "I should probably take some again tomorrow". How can something about this potion be "probably"? Just imagine how much more loaded (and hilarious, and on a whole new level above Harry's head) their dialogue was if this theory is somewhat correct. "If you need more" translates to "If you feel a sudden urge to kill me or Mr.Potter here". > > But I don't think Lupin really needs that apology. *Everybody* in the Shrieking Shack > behaved strangely. I never, ever thought that Harry would seriously contemplate *murdering* > somebody, and I certainly never thought I'd see such irrational actions and words from Snape. >That whole scene was almost grotesque, really. I can just imagine - a greenish Ron with his leg >stuck out at a strange angle, trying to contain a bony balding rat that keeps squeaking and >biting, Hermione just standing there, not knowing what to do, >Sirius Black-the-escaped-convict-with-an-Edmond-Dantes-look-about-him, If there is someone Sirius does not deserve to be compared to, that's Dantes actually. Dantes went about getting his revenge only after getting good rest and haircut. Oh, and other small things to make sure he actually succeeds. :-) (Meaning - I like the count and dislike Sirius, so please don't mix them in my poor head ;-) Irene From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 30 00:53:21 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 00:53:21 -0000 Subject: Snape and respect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51034 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999 " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" > wrote: > You know, I might have been able to accept the idea that Snape > isn't just cruel or mean, except for one thing. > > > Then he lost me. Page 263 of Goblet of Fire (Australian > printing). The incident with Hermione's teeth. > > > > I agree the incident is revolting, if you think of Snape as the > teacher of a a fourteen-year-old school girl. But Hermione made > herself something else when she followed Harry past the > Trapdoor in Book One. Hermione is a fourteen year old soldier. > > She shouldn't have to be. But she is...and if something like that > happens when she's facing an adult Death Eater, she'll die while > she's covering her teeth and snivelling. What Snape did was > cruel--but if it saves her life, it will be worth it. I'm sure that's the rationalization Snape would give if some confronted him about this. But he'd be lying through his teeth (or maybe just deluding himself, I'm not sure). His cruelty did absolutely nothing to enhance Hermione's ability to keep her head in a crisis. Nada, zilch, zip. She did not come out of that experience calmer, braver or more confident, nor should anyone have expected it of her. Cruel treatment at the hands of adult authority figures does not make children tougher and more competent, not matter how much cruel adults in question might like to justify themselves that way. > > Most people in the wizarding world treat Harry, and probably > Neville, too, with kid gloves. If Snape weren't harsh with them, > they would probably think that every adult in the wizarding world > was their friend. I don't see most adults in the wizarding world treating Harry with kid gloves. Molly Weasley, maybe, but that's it. McGonagall, who favors him more than most other teachers, still thinks nothing of docking him fifty points and sending him on detention to the Forbidden Forest. Trelawney fortells his doom on a regular basis. Lupin guilt-trips him to hell and back for his outing to Hogsmeade. Dumbledore sets him up for confrontations with Voldemort. And that's not even counting how the villains treat him. Nor does Harry have any trouble recognizing that people like Lucius Malfoy, Gilderoy Lockhart and Reeta Skeeter aren't his friends. Do you really think that if Snape hadn't been mean to him, Harry would be falling into their arms? Nor have I noticed anyone treating Neville with kid gloves, either. His grandmother intimidates him, his uncle dangles him out the window, McGonagall is quite harsh with him when he loses his password list in PoA. I really don't think he'd be in any danger of becoming too trusting if Snape actually treated him like a human being. > So I think Snape is just as harsh as he appears to be, but not > without purpose. > > Pippin I think Snape's "purpose" is really just an excuse. He's harsh because he likes being harsh. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 01:01:27 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 17:01:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and respect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030130010127.99635.qmail@web40506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51035 Tom wrote: > I mean, come ON: Dumbledore PERSONALLY overturned > the official results of the House Cup in PS/SS. Sure, > WE know why that happened, and as readers who identify > with Harry, WE'RE glad to see him win, but let's face > it - that is concrete and indisputable favoritism. Alla answered: So, Harry and Co did not deserve the points for defeating Quirrelmort? I think that this was justice, not favouritism. Sure, Dumbledore could award points earlier and not make show out of it at the feast, but it does not change the fact that those points were earned, in my opinion. Me: I really have to agree with Tom here. HHR and Neville did deserve some sort of praise, maybe even in the form of points, but I think that assigning the exact number of points needed to win the House Cup was extremely blatant favouritism. Sure, it was wonderful to see it happen, and I do think that 150 points McGonagall took off Gryffindor were excessive, and that scene never fails to bring tears to my eyes, but it *was* demoralizing for *all* non-Gryffindor students, and it was demoralizing to Snape. Dumbledore could have handled the situation with much more grace that he did. Tom: > That can be very demoralizing for kids, and I think > that it was probably SUPER demoralizing for Snape. Alla: Bully for them, especially for Malfoy, who made the trio lose points practically for visiting Hagrid only. Me: Umm, do I see Movie Contamination? In the book, if you remember, Harry and Hermione were charged with: 1. Being out of bed after hours; 2. Feeding Draco Malfoy with a story about a dragon so that he would get in trouble; 3. Luring Neville out of the common room, though not directly. Did I forget anything? And, I'm sorry, but they were guilty of all those things, actually. Neville *also* broke the rules, and he deserved punishment as well. So, Draco Malfoy certainly did not make them lose all those points. They took a risk, and suffered the consequences. Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 01:12:08 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214 ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 01:12:08 -0000 Subject: Snape and respect In-Reply-To: <20030130010127.99635.qmail@web40506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51036 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Maria Kirilenko wrote: > Me: > > I really have to agree with Tom here. HHR and Neville did deserve some sort of praise, maybe even in the form of points, but I think that assigning the exact number of points needed to win the House Cup was extremely blatant favouritism. Sure, it was wonderful to see it happen, and I do think that 150 points McGonagall took off Gryffindor were excessive, and that scene never fails to bring tears to my eyes, but it *was* demoralizing for *all* non-Gryffindor students, and it was demoralizing to Snape. > > Dumbledore could have handled the situation with much more grace that he did. Well, I think that HHR and Neville deserved A LOT of praise and many points, so I guess we disagree. :) Yeah, Dumbledore could've done it differently and assign different amount of points, but we don't know how much every good or bad event worth, right? I mean, for all we know it could be completely arbitrarily. So, in my eyes, Dumbledore could be guilty at the most of not assigning points earlier, but I still think it was deserved. > Me: > > Umm, do I see Movie Contamination? In the book, if you remember, Harry and Hermione were charged with: > > 1. Being out of bed after hours; > > 2. Feeding Draco Malfoy with a story about a dragon so that he would get in trouble; > > 3. Luring Neville out of the common room, though not directly. > No, you don't see movie contamination. :) I guess I was just trying to make a point that all the charges were consequences of them visiting Hagrid. > So, Draco Malfoy certainly did not make them lose all those points. They took a risk, and suffered the consequences. I guess. Alla > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From andie at knownet.net Thu Jan 30 01:15:30 2003 From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 01:15:30 -0000 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: <003401c2c65f$abd8cc60$cce187d9@freeserve.co.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51037 How can I possibly narrow these quotes down? lol Here are a few favorites: * "You are truly your fathers' son, Harry." Sirius, PoA * "I could not let Harry Potter loose his Weezy!" Dobby, GoF * "Untie him Wormtail, and give him back his wand." Voldie, GoF * "Make way for the heir of Slytherin... seriously evil wizard coming through..." Fred & George Weasley, CoS * "I'm never going over to the Dark Side." Harry, SS * "Mars is bright tonight... " Ferenze, SS * "There are more important things, like friendship & bravery." Hermione, SS * You're a Parselmouth... why didn't you tell us?" Ron, CoS * You did not conquer him Harry Potter, and now I conquer you..." Fake!Moody/Crouch Jr., GoF Just a few... :) Hope they're close enough since they were from memory as opposed to reading them off the page! grindieloe From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Thu Jan 30 01:18:13 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 20:18:13 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and respect Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51038 In a message dated 1/29/03 5:23:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com writes: > How about some fairness or is it to much to ask of Snape too? Whoa, whoa, whoa!!!! Throw on the brakes here babe. I, as a SILK SHIRT, believe fully that Snape *is* fair. Okay, we'll take their first class together as example. Does Snape know that Harry doesn't have an ideas about special treatment? No. All Snape knows is that he has a famous boy in his class who could quite possibly get out of hand and he wants to make sure that Harry knows he won't get away with it. The incident with Hermione's teeth. Okay, Snape could've handled that one better, but that's what makes Snape Snape! He's a nasty wicked git - but I love him. I understand where Snape is coming from though, regardless. He has a girl who has (with her two friends) shown him nothing but disrespect for over three years. Now, after Potter pulls another incident, she's in trouble. He really should've handled that better. I'm not saying what he did was right. Overall, Snape is the guy we hate. We're supposed to. The way the books are told, Harry's POV, makes us hate him. There's alot more to Snape than that. I know that I personally hold grudges and get very angry and I say things I shouldn't. I know this will start an onslaught of "But Snape's a *teacher*!" retorts. I honestly feel that that argument doesn't apply to the situation. Dumbledore's a teacher - he should treat everyone equal, but he doesn't. People are people; they will act how they wish. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ (Who was about to start a reply to the Snape one, but then decided Tom did it so much better than she ever could!) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 01:26:30 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 17:26:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] A theory of Lupin's transformation In-Reply-To: <3E3876AF.2090904@btopenworld.com> Message-ID: <20030130012630.18884.qmail@web40504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51039 Maria (me) wrote: > You know, I'm first to defend Lupin if anything :-), but I don't think your theory works, although it's very interesting. Snape *says* to Lupin in the Shrieking Shack that he'd forgotten to take his potion. > > I think that "I made an entire cauldronful", Snape continued. "If you need more" can be explained thus: > > Suppose Lupin accidentally knocks over the goblet with the potion - anything can happen. If Snape makes just enough potion for 7 gobletfuls, Lupin is in trouble. So Snape makes extra, and tells Lupin about it just in case. Irene: Is it established that Lupin takes the potion for a week before the full moon? And Lupin answers Snape: "I should probably take some again tomorrow". How can something about this potion be "probably"? Just imagine how much more loaded (and hilarious, and on a whole new level above Harry's head) their dialogue was if this theory is somewhat correct. "If you need more" translates to "If you feel a sudden urge to kill me or Mr.Potter here". Me again: LOL! Snape would do that, wouldn't he? And yet I am unmoved. We have to remember that they are talking in front of Harry. Lupin can't be as explicit as he would be if were talking to Snape in private. In the Shrieking Shack (oh I am *tired* of writing those words all the time . Let it be SS) Lupin says: "As long as I take it in the week, preceding the full moon, I keep my mind when I transform..." I wrote: > But I don't think Lupin really needs that apology. *Everybody* in the Shrieking Shack > behaved strangely. I never, ever thought that Harry would seriously contemplate *murdering* > somebody, and I certainly never thought I'd see such irrational actions and words from Snape. >That whole scene was almost grotesque, really. I can just imagine - a greenish Ron with his leg >stuck out at a strange angle, trying to contain a bony balding rat that keeps squeaking and >biting, Hermione just standing there, not knowing what to do, >Sirius Black-the-escaped-convict-with-an-Edmond-Dantes-look-about-him, Irene: If there is someone Sirius does not deserve to be compared to, that's Dantes actually. Dantes went about getting his revenge only after getting good rest and haircut. Oh, and other small things to make sure he actually succeeds. :-) (Meaning - I like the count and dislike Sirius, so please don't mix them in my poor head ;-) Me: I'm LOL again. Sirius wasn't as lucky as Dantes was. Dantes had several advantages over Sirius. One was that his picture wasn't printed in the paper everyday, and the other is that he happened across some people who gave him that much-needed haircut and shave. Oh, and he had money, too. Like you, I seem to like the count more than I like Sirius, although I don't really know why. Monte-Cristo's methods of getting his revenge were truly horrifying. Sushi, on a graver note, wrote: 1. Remus screwed up. Remus really, really screwed up. Unless he honestly believed that a conspiracy that had gone on for twelve years could be sorted in less than an hour, there's no way to forgive what could have been a much, much larger disaster. Reliance on Sirius to hold him off can't be argued, as if the transformation had taken place in the Shack he might have ripped any of them to shreds before Sirius could transform. Me: You know, now that I'm rereading the SS scene for the umpteenth time, I must say that I concede. Remus really, really screwed up. There are *loads and loads* of times when they talk about the Potion and Lupin's transformations. I can't believe that *nothing* triggered Lupin's memory. Although it could be that his transformations occur only when the moon comes out from behind the clouds, or whatever, which I really, really doubt. But I don't think your theory holds, either. :) Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 01:30:59 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214 ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 01:30:59 -0000 Subject: Snape and respect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51040 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: , > dumbledore11214 at y... writes: > > > > How about some fairness or is it to much to ask of Snape too? > > Whoa, whoa, whoa!!!! Throw on the brakes here babe. I, as a SILK SHIRT, > believe fully that Snape *is* fair. Okay, we'll take their first class > together as example. Does Snape know that Harry doesn't have an ideas about > special treatment? No. All Snape knows is that he has a famous boy in his > class who could quite possibly get out of hand and he wants to make sure that > Harry knows he won't get away with it. May I not share your beliefs of Snape's fairness? :) I would like to think that he knows about Harry's life, if he Dumbledore's right hand. If he does not know, I am still failing to see how is it fair for the teacher to take a "preventive strike" at the child, who is just thrown in the new world. > Overall, Snape is the guy we hate. We're supposed to. The way the books are > told, Harry's POV, makes us hate him. There's alot more to Snape than that. I DO NOT HATE Snape. Sorry, just wanted to make that clear. I like him a lot in general. I know that there is much more to him and his mystery intrigues me. But I extremely dislike him as a teacher. I think he should find himself a new occupation. > I know that I personally hold grudges and get very angry and I say things I > shouldn't. I know this will start an onslaught of "But Snape's a *teacher*!" > retorts. I honestly feel that that argument doesn't apply to the situation. > Dumbledore's a teacher - he should treat everyone equal, but he doesn't. > People are people; they will act how they wish. > Yes, people will act as they wish, but teachers should not act as they wish in their work environment. Snape may hate Harry as much as he wants in private setting, but I want to kick him hard for what he does to Harry and especially Neville in class. Alla From andie at knownet.net Thu Jan 30 01:31:14 2003 From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 01:31:14 -0000 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51041 Thought of one more hilarious quote... Lavendar: "What planet is this, professor?" Trelawney: "Let me see... that is Uranus, my dear..." Ron: "Can I see Uranus too, Lavendar?" Being a teacher, I can SO see that happening... hehehe grindieloe (warning: It may not be quoted exactly! I was guessing!) From susannahlm at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 01:47:36 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 01:47:36 -0000 Subject: On divers "mean" meanings Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51042 If you ask me, we *desperately* need OOP to come out. This is an insane thing to be discussing, when you think about it for a minute. But at any rate, my two knuts: First of all, for all those who say that "mean" is used to mean (sorry) average: well, yes. Technically speaking, it is. But only in mathematics. The word "mean" is *only* used for the *mathematical* sense of average. (In fact, the word mean is *completely, utterly interchangeable* with the mathematical "average.") And the mathematical meaning of "average" is not the one that y'all are thinking of. So what's the difference between the mathematical "average" and the non-mathematical "average"? OK. The *non-mathematical* meaning, I would say, is something like "Roughly the same as is the norm. That which happens most frequently." So that if you say, for example, "Harry is average height," what you mean is roughly, "Harry's height is normal. Not a lot taller than everyone else, not a lot shorter. Harry is the same height as lots of people." Now, the *mathematical* meaning of average--the one used interchangeably for mean--is the *sum* of all numbers N, divided by the *number* of all numbers N. Let's say that we've got 20 boys with apples. *loud groans.* One boy has 10001 apples ('K, so he's got very big pockets), and the other 19 boys have only one apple each. The mathematical average of this would be 10001+1+1+1+1. . . etc. Which is 10020/20. Which is 501. So the *mathematical* average is 501. But if a boy came along with 501 apples, you wouldn't say, *non- mathematically speaking," that he had an "average number of apples." You wouldn't say that he had "roughly the normal ammount of apples for a boy;" or "Roughly as many as the other boys do." I mean, obviously he doesn't. He's got 500 more apples than 19 of the other boys, and 9500 less than the twentieth. If we were looking for the *non-mathematical* average. . . well. We've got 19 boys with 1 apple, one with 501, and one with 10001. *Non-mathematically* speaking, the average--the *normal*--number of apples is 1. Because *non- mathematically* speaking, average means "That which is the most common." That which is *normal.* And in this example, it's normal for a boy to have 1 apple. And the mathematical term for *that* concept, for *that non- mathematical average* is *not* "average." And not "mean." The mathematical term for *that* concept is "mode." Mode--in all numbers N, the most frequently occuring number N. *That's* what we mean when we say "average" in non-mathematical conversation. But it ain't the mathematical average. So it ain't the mean. So that's my first problem with interpreting the word "mean" that way; that simply isn't what it, you know, means. My second problem with the interpretation is: Huh? I mean, if he's "average" (I may just say "mode;" it's less confusing) If Harry is average/mode/normal height, then why did Trelawney bother commenting on it? I just don't get that. Also, as Falcon rightly points out, we've heard over and over again in the books that Harry is short. If he suddenly got taller. . . wouldn't he tell us so? Derannimer (who probably got *all* of this wrong, and who had an example--sans apples--that sounded less like what you did in the 2nd grade, but *it,* unfortunately, was A. Not my own idea, and B. Blatantly political. (Hint: tax cuts.) So so much for *that.*) From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Thu Jan 30 01:50:58 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 20:50:58 EST Subject: Characters You Hate Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51043 Okay, my new question of the day (I do this at school every day): Everyone has strong feelings about certain characters *coughSnapecough*; are there any characters that you hate for no reason? You just read about them and think "Geez...I really don't like them!" but aren't really sure why? ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ (Yesterday's question for my little coterie was: Why is Snape so sexy? ... To which they all answered, "He's not....you're just crazy!" *g*) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From metal_tiara at hotmail.com Thu Jan 30 01:54:32 2003 From: metal_tiara at hotmail.com (sophineclaire ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 01:54:32 -0000 Subject: House points and Dumbledore (Re: Snape and respect) In-Reply-To: <20030130010127.99635.qmail@web40506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51044 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Maria Kirilenko wrote: > > Tom wrote: > > I mean, come ON: Dumbledore PERSONALLY overturned > > the official results of the House Cup in PS/SS. Sure, > > WE know why that happened, and as readers who identify > > with Harry, WE'RE glad to see him win, but let's face > > it - that is concrete and indisputable favoritism. > > > Alla answered: > So, Harry and Co did not deserve the points for defeating > Quirrelmort? I think that this was justice, not favouritism. Sure, > Dumbledore could award points earlier and not make show out of it at > the feast, but it does not change the fact that those points were > earned, in my opinion. > > Me: > > I really have to agree with Tom here. HHR and Neville did deserve some sort of praise, maybe even in the form of points, but I think that assigning the exact number of points needed to win the House Cup was extremely blatant favouritism. Sure, it was wonderful to see it happen, and I do think that 150 points McGonagall took off Gryffindor were excessive, and that scene never fails to bring tears to my eyes, but it *was* demoralizing for *all* non-Gryffindor students, and it was demoralizing to Snape. > > Dumbledore could have handled the situation with much more grace that he did. > Plus, I don't remember Hufflepuff getting any points on behalf of the death of Cedric Diggory. Sure, there may have not been a House Cup that year and house points wouldn't make up for the loss of a young life, but it's obvious that no one is giving them house points on the basis of their work ethic are they? It's all about Winning in the wizarding world, not being a good worker. ahem... I dunno. Maybe DD is trying to make Harry's life at Hogwarts a little easier, at least when there isn't a threat of immediate death, then it was on Privet Drive. But that's the sort of thing that really ruffles me. Yes, there are circumstances in someone's life that warrent an extra pat on the back or an extra mark here or there. But there are other people who, just because they seem to have a well-rounded life on the surface, are often overlooked because people believe they've had or will have enough breaks in life. I wonder if a reward here or there for doing work or achieving something on his own would make a difference in Draco's life, or Crabbe's or Goyle's. More so, have it come from someone outide of Slytherin *cough*dumbledore*cough*. Something to say, "We know you're not Harry Potter: Our-wizarding-saviour-whom-we-hope-never- dies, we we do care and acknowledge what you are doing as being the right/good/correct thing to do." But of course, look at all those points Slytherin had. As a House, they won because their house worked for those points. Some of them had to give the right answers in class and do extra credit assignments and win at Quidditch, only one student got caught out of bed and was punished for it. All in all, I say Snape runs a tight ship at HMS Slytherin. As much as the loss and gain of points were very much the efforts of 3/4 individuals, Why couldn't DD recognize that by giving them Special Services to the school Awards, as individuals? ( as much as I think that was an Ironic award to be given in COS). It merely shows the school as well as astute Gryffindors that their worth is based on three people and not on the efforts of the house as a whole. Well, that was really disconnected From metal_tiara at hotmail.com Thu Jan 30 01:54:43 2003 From: metal_tiara at hotmail.com (sophineclaire ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 01:54:43 -0000 Subject: House points and Dumbledore (Re: Snape and respect) In-Reply-To: <20030130010127.99635.qmail@web40506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51045 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Maria Kirilenko wrote: > > Tom wrote: > > I mean, come ON: Dumbledore PERSONALLY overturned > > the official results of the House Cup in PS/SS. Sure, > > WE know why that happened, and as readers who identify > > with Harry, WE'RE glad to see him win, but let's face > > it - that is concrete and indisputable favoritism. > > > Alla answered: > So, Harry and Co did not deserve the points for defeating > Quirrelmort? I think that this was justice, not favouritism. Sure, > Dumbledore could award points earlier and not make show out of it at > the feast, but it does not change the fact that those points were > earned, in my opinion. > > Me: > > I really have to agree with Tom here. HHR and Neville did deserve some sort of praise, maybe even in the form of points, but I think that assigning the exact number of points needed to win the House Cup was extremely blatant favouritism. Sure, it was wonderful to see it happen, and I do think that 150 points McGonagall took off Gryffindor were excessive, and that scene never fails to bring tears to my eyes, but it *was* demoralizing for *all* non-Gryffindor students, and it was demoralizing to Snape. > > Dumbledore could have handled the situation with much more grace that he did. > Plus, I don't remember Hufflepuff getting any points on behalf of the death of Cedric Diggory. Sure, there may have not been a House Cup that year and house points wouldn't make up for the loss of a young life, but it's obvious that no one is giving them house points on the basis of their work ethic are they? It's all about Winning in the wizarding world, not being a good worker. ahem... I dunno. Maybe DD is trying to make Harry's life at Hogwarts a little easier, at least when there isn't a threat of immediate death, then it was on Privet Drive. But that's the sort of thing that really ruffles me. Yes, there are circumstances in someone's life that warrent an extra pat on the back or an extra mark here or there. But there are other people who, just because they seem to have a well-rounded life on the surface, are often overlooked because people believe they've had or will have enough breaks in life. I wonder if a reward here or there for doing work or achieving something on his own would make a difference in Draco's life, or Crabbe's or Goyle's. More so, have it come from someone outide of Slytherin *cough*dumbledore*cough*. Something to say, "We know you're not Harry Potter: Our-wizarding-saviour-whom-we-hope-never- dies, we we do care and acknowledge what you are doing as being the right/good/correct thing to do." But of course, look at all those points Slytherin had. As a House, they won because their house worked for those points. Some of them had to give the right answers in class and do extra credit assignments and win at Quidditch, only one student got caught out of bed and was punished for it. All in all, I say Snape runs a tight ship at HMS Slytherin. As much as the loss and gain of points were very much the efforts of 3/4 individuals, Why couldn't DD recognize that by giving them Special Services to the school Awards, as individuals? ( as much as I think that was an Ironic award to be given in COS). It merely shows the school as well as astute Gryffindors that their worth is based on three people and not on the efforts of the house as a whole. Well, that was really disconnected -SophineClaire From melclaros at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 02:31:46 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 02:31:46 -0000 Subject: Snape and respect In-Reply-To: <20030130010127.99635.qmail@web40506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51046 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Maria Kirilenko wrote: > >at > the feast, but it does not change the fact that those points were > earned, in my opinion. > > Me: > > I really have to agree with Tom here. HHR and Neville did deserve some sort of praise, maybe even in the form of points, but I think that assigning the exact number of points needed to win the House Cup was extremely blatant favouritism. Sure, it was wonderful to see it happen, and I do think that 150 points McGonagall took off Gryffindor were excessive, and that scene never fails to bring tears to my eyes, but it *was* demoralizing for *all* non-Gryffindor students, and it was demoralizing to Snape. >with: >> > I have to agree, this upsets me to no end. Certainly recognition for what went on was warranted but this blatant calculation to embarrass Snape in front of the entire school makes me cringe. It also sets a pattern of behaviour for Dumbledore towards his "trused confidante" Snape which personally I find appalling. I got another view of this when my British husband watched TMTMNBN the first time. He was raised in the Brit School "house" system. He was HORRIFIED when that happened. Melpomene (who really would love to stand behind Severus and convince him to say, just once "Listen to me you old fool! No, don't put me off with some silly pudding or tales about your fabulous memory, You be quiet and LISTEN TO ME!" From BriBearBaby at backstreet-wallpaper.net Thu Jan 30 02:13:27 2003 From: BriBearBaby at backstreet-wallpaper.net (Patty) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 21:13:27 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Characters You Hate References: Message-ID: <009101c2c805$2ea126a0$0101a8c0@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 51047 ----- Original Message ----- From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Okay, my new question of the day (I do this at school every day): Everyone has strong feelings about certain characters *coughSnapecough*; are there any characters that you hate for no reason? You just read about them and think "Geez...I really don't like them!" but aren't really sure why? ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ There is a character that I can't stand and that character is none other than Gilderoy Lockhart. I just cringe everytime he speaks. Ron's expressions throughout are pretty much the same as mine when it comes to Lockhart. I just don't like him at all! Patty [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gansecki at hawaii.edu Thu Jan 30 02:30:59 2003 From: gansecki at hawaii.edu (lavaluvn ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 02:30:59 -0000 Subject: Snape and respect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51048 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marinafrants " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999 " > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" > > wrote: > > You know, I might have been able to accept the idea that Snape > > isn't just cruel or mean, except for one thing. > > > > > Then he lost me. Page 263 of Goblet of Fire (Australian > > printing). The incident with Hermione's teeth. > > > > > > > I agree the incident is revolting, if you think of Snape as the > > teacher of a a fourteen-year-old school girl. But Hermione made > > herself something else when she followed Harry past the > > Trapdoor in Book One. Hermione is a fourteen year old soldier. > > > > She shouldn't have to be. But she is...and if something like that > > happens when she's facing an adult Death Eater, she'll die while > > she's covering her teeth and snivelling. What Snape did was > > cruel--but if it saves her life, it will be worth it. > > I'm sure that's the rationalization Snape would give if some > confronted him about this. But he'd be lying through his teeth (or > maybe just deluding himself, I'm not sure). His cruelty did > absolutely nothing to enhance Hermione's ability to keep her head in > a crisis. Nada, zilch, zip. She did not come out of that > experience calmer, braver or more confident, nor should anyone have > expected it of her. Cruel treatment at the hands of adult authority > figures does not make children tougher and more competent, not > matter how much cruel adults in question might like to justify > themselves that way. > ME: I'm totally with you on that. Does abusing a child, mentally or physically, make him/her stronger? Somehow I doubt it. Yet, that is certainly the excuse of certain kinds of abusers - mock him, hit him, make him a man. Mocking children under his control - torturing orphans for goodness sake - showing blatant favortism to others... this man is a teacher? Unlike the original poster (Shaun? sorry, not sure), I've also always held his treatment of Neville against Snape. We cerainly don't see Neville flourishing in this environment, whereas under a kinder teacher (Herbology), he is capable of learning and doing well. I've had teachers that were demanding, teachers that were so stern as to be almost frightening; I could learn from them, even do well. But the most damaging experience of my life was to be mocked by a teacher. 25 years ago now and it still affects my personality. Bright, outgoing little girl suddenly becomes shy, moody, withdrawn. Why? - she never tells, too ashamed. I don't buy the "treat them rough and get them ready for the battles ahead" line as an excuse for Snape's treatment. No way. They'd be better off actually learning something useful in school and avoiding all those years of therapy. (OK, that was meant as a joke, though I'd be amused to read JKR's version of wizard therapy). Cheryl From melclaros at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 02:42:23 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 02:42:23 -0000 Subject: Characters You Hate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51049 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: > Okay, my new question of the day (I do this at school every day): Everyone > has strong feelings about certain characters *coughSnapecough*; are there any > characters that you hate for no reason? You just read about them and think > "Geez...I really don't like them!" but aren't really sure why? > > Rita Skeeter, but I know why. First and foremost she's a ****. But really I can't stand her...even her presence because she, for me anyway, cheapened the "classic timelessness" of the books. Up to the insertion of her miserable physog (except for the equally annoying references to Playstation) the books could have been read 20 years ago or 20 years from now and seemed current. Skeeter dated the book to me...gave it a spot on the calendar that really left a black spot. Melpomene From probono at rapidnet.com Thu Jan 30 02:43:51 2003 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 02:43:51 -0000 Subject: A midget in glasses, In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51050 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "errolowl " wrote: > > > > GoF Chapter 13 > "I was saying that Saturn was surely in a position of power in the > heavens at the moment of your birth...Your dark hair..your mean > stature...tragic losses so young in life... I think I am right in > sayin, my dear, that you were born in midwinter?" > "No," said Harry, "I was born in July." ME: You know there is another mention in canon of Harry being called "mean", for what it's worth. PoA Chapter 2 Aunt Marge says: "Pardon me. But I do like to see a healthy-sized boy," she went on, winking at Dudley. "You'll be a proper-sized man, Dudders, like your father..." "Now this one here-" She jerked her head at Harry, who felt his stomache clench. "This ones got a mean, runty look about him. You get that with dogs. I had Colonel Fubster drown one last year. Ratty little thing it was. Weak. Underbred." The definition in my dictionary: Runty -Like a runt; diminutive; mean;adj slang(used especially of persons)of inferior size... In this context 'mean' is the same as 'runty'. Interestingly, Rowling described Harry earlier in the same chapter as follows: "Harry, still rather small and skinny for his age, had grown a few inches over the last year." I don't think Rowling mentions any further growth of Harry herself after this, so I'll venture to believe both instances of the word 'mean' as referring to Harry's inferior height. -Tanya From snorth at ucla.edu Thu Jan 30 02:55:11 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 18:55:11 -0800 Subject: Snape's rationality References: Message-ID: <008201c2c80b$02921a00$d3447442@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 51051 SCOTT (Me) WROTE: >From the beginning of the series, Harry has never given Snape a reason to dislike him, at least not a believable one. END. Me: I should have phrased that differently. I should have said "In Snape's first meeting with Harry, Snape sets up the basis for their relationship in the future." TOM'S REPLY: <> ME: Obviously, Harry and Snape BOTH give each other plenty of reasons to dislike the other throughout the series. However, in their very first meeting, Snape clearly singles out Harry, because Harry is "famous," or so he says. Why does he really single out Harry? Could it be because he hated Harry's father? I think so. Okay, now this is just my opinion, but trying to argue this is silly. The argument 'Snape wanted to let Harry know he wouldn't get away with anything in his class just because Harry is famous' has so many holes in it, it wouldn't hold ice cubes, much less water (sorry, witty repartee isn't really my thing...). Let's take a look at this in two ways: 1) Snape HAS to know something about Harry's background. Honestly, I don't see how he couldn't. He would have known EXACTLY what happened to Harry's parents. We also know that Snape was a DE who switched sides before Voldemort's fall. I don't think it's a stretch to say that in the 10 years after the fall of Voldemort, Snape would have found out at some point that all of Harry's wizarding family was dead, and that he was raised by muggles. If Snape honestly believes he has to send a message to Harry the first day of class, well, then Snape's not all there. 2) Why did Snape even feel it was necessary to Send a message to Harry? If Harry tries to take advantage of his fame, THEN you send the message. Honestly, singling people out before they give you a reason to is not a fair way of dealing with people. TOM: <> ME: The word 'baseless' destroys your argument. If you honestly think that Snape is totally undeserving of Harry's dislike and disrespect, you are a SAINT. Honest to God. I'm all for children respecting their elders, but I also believe that the elder should give the child a reason to respect them. Personally, I don't think that someone is totally deserving of my respect just because they've been on the Earth longer than I have. That wouldn't really be logical (But then, I'm what Keirsey would call a 'Rational.' ) . I try to respect people from the get go, but if I were Harry, Snape clearly would have lost my respect in our first meeting. Next; I don't see how you can say that Harry and Co.'s assumptions that Snape was trying to A)Kill Harry and B)Steal the Sorceror's Stone are 'unfair.' I'll explain. The whole book (PS/SS) is set up to make it seem like Snape is trying to accomplish both A and B. There are a series of clues in the book that are clearly meant to direct the reader to the conclusion that Snape is the bad guy. If you read through the whole book, and knew that Quirrel was the real perpetrator (the first time, and no cheating!), then I honestly believe you are Batman or Sherlock Holmes. Harry's line of thought is logical; he's not basing his entire case against Snape solely on the fact that Snape is a greasy jerk. For the sake of brevity, I'm not going to outline the evidence in PS/SS... we all know it by heart, and I'm fairly certain we can all agree that it points to Snape being the culprit. SCOTT (Me) WROTE: Of course, Snape will later claim that his intense dislike of Harry stems from Hary's disregard of the rules. It seems to me that if Snape had such high respect for 'the rules,' he'd be the head of Hufflepuff, not Slytherin. From the Sorting Hat Song: Or perhaps in Slytherin You'll make your real friends, Those cunning folks use any means To achieve their ends. -PS/SS END TOM'S REPLY: < (or ~=) "rule-breaking" (for the programmers...) ;-P First, "cunning" has nothing to do with rules at all. It has to do with being crafty and clever. Second, I would hardly describe Harry et al as "cunning," since they're always getting caught in medias res rule breaking. A "cunning" person is not someone who is likely to be caught breaking the rules. Slytherins respect "cunning" folks. They don't respect blatant rule-breakers.>> ME: Of first, I'd just like to note that when I read your reply, I practically fell out of my chair. I didn't think I needed to clarify what part of the Sorting Hat Song I was talking about; I assumed it was obvious. Well, you know what they say about those who 'assume.' Let me explain it. I'm not pointing to cunning. You're right, cunning does not necessarily imply rule breaking (though, I think to argue that it doesn't it arguing over technicalities). However, the song says "Those cunning folks use any means To achieve their ends." Now, call me crazy, but someone who uses 'any means' to acheive their ends sounds like someone who has no particular regard for rules. The hat doesn't say "any means within the rules to achieve their ends." :P SCOTT (Me) WROTE: 1) First thing: "I shall be interested to see how Dumbledore takes this . . . He was quite convinced you were harmless, you know, Lupin . . . a tame werewolf--" (PoA, The Servant of Lord Voldemort). Snape is a hypocrite. END QUOTE TOM'S REPLY: <> ME: Maybe hypocrite is the wrong word. I think the main thing I'd like to emphasize is that Snape clearly owes Dumbledore a great deal. Snape did change sides at great personal risk to himself, but I do think that he owes most of his post Voldemort career to Dumbledore. You have make a distinction; Snape isn't someone who was found not guilty of being a DE (like Bagman)- he was an admitted DE who changed sides. So, who would hire a former Death Eater? The same person who would have hired a werewolf (actually, I should note, just to make all cases, that he probably could have gotten a job in Durmstrang, but since Durmstrang administration seems to have the same value system as Voldemort, I don't really think that it counts). I'll make an analogy: take the case of Benedict Arnold, who betrayed the Americans in the American Revolution. Well, after the war, he moved to Britain (obviously), where he wasn't treated particularly well by his new countrymen, who didn't really trust someone who'd already proven himself capable of betrayal. I'd imagine that Snape would have had to deal with a similar situation, even if his reason for changing sides was slightly more noble than Arnold's reason. The Wizarding community tends to be near sighted, I think. Anyway, seeing that Dumbledore trusts Snape, where I doubt many others would, I don't think he has a right to question Dumbledore's decision to hire a werewolf. TOM'S REPLY: <> ME: Look, I don't care if it's from Harry's point of view or Ghandi's. A thousand lawyers couldn't argue that Snape was in total control of his senses if they had a thousand years. TOM: <> ME: Look, it's not an issue of disrespect, it's an issue of Snape HAVING TOTALLY LOST HIS SENSES. Look, I have a ton of respect for my Programming Professor, but if he went nuts, I can say I would have no problem interrupting him, or knocking him senseless if I thought it was for the best. I mean, come on, be reasonable. SCOTT (Me) WROTE: .fact of the matter is, this scene is why Snape bugs me- his utter inability to listen to reason when his temper is up. END. TOM'S REPLY: I consider this to be an unfair remark. Why? Because most people have an inability to listen when their tempers are up. Consider Sirius' insistence that Pettigrew die without delay. Or Harry and Ron's conflagration in GoF. This is normal human behavior. ME: Well, I do agree that most people have the inability to listen when their tempers are up, but it's all a matter of degree. Snape is particularly bad at it. I'd like to think that I can see multiple sides of an argument, even when I'm angry, at least more so than Snape. Harry also posesses this ability. SCOTT (Me) WROTE: Harry, is rational. He is murderously angry at first (he wants to kill Sirius in the beginning of the Shrieking Shack scene, but something holds him back), but once he sees the facts, he is able to think clearly, and logically. If he didn't, well, he wouldn't have believed Sirius in the end, would he? TOM'S REPLY: <> ME: You're confusing the defintion of rational again! Being rational doesn't mean you have to be polite or diplomatic. I'll give an example, but it requires that you've seen 'A Beautiful Mind.' John Nash, the main character, is what Keirsey would call a 'Rational' personality (Keirsey is a psychologist). In fact, he's a pretty clear cut case of a Rational. But, no one would describe John Nash as being polite, or diplomatic. Just the opposite, actually. Being rational doesn't even mean you have to be right often. The argument about having hindsight while reading PS/SS is well, a fallacy. Most rational people would conclude that Snape is the perpetrator while reading PS/SS. I certainly did (you'll just have to take my word that I'm rational... I am, trust me *grins*)! I general, Harry usually does a goob job of putting the pieces together and making logical conclusions. Not to the same degree as Hermione, but no one's perfect. (and no saying "Then why didn't he figure out the plot in GoF?" Dumbledore didn't figure it out, and he's the pinnacle of rationality) If you put Snape in Harry's shoes, he would have never given Lupin the chance to explain, 'act of trust' or not. SCOTT (Me) WROTE (re: above): Snape however, is so enraged, he won't even listen to the facts. TOM'S REPLY: <> ME: I don't care what Snape's situation is; he LOSES HIS MIND. He gives no one a chance to explain anything, and threatens to have Sirius killed without ever giving Sirius a chance to explain himself, simply because of his hate. I can say that the only way you would have behaved similarly in that part, is if you also happened to harbor an intense hatred for Sirius, Lupin and Harry. TOM: [note that I've snipped some text] <> ME: You're a purple bunny?! How does that even work? I don't mean to be rude, but I think you need to look up 'rational.' I see Harry as someone who does what needs to be done. If he has to break a few rules to solve a problem, so be it. Being rational means having valid reasons behind your actions. TOM: <> ME: There is absolutely no evidence to show that Harry is granted special treatment from anyone but Dumbledore (and the cited special cases McGonagall). Well, possibly Hagrid, but I actually don't see Harry getting special treatment from Hagrid. Note that I define 'special treatment' as being treated in a way differently from all of the other students, to Harry's benefit. Snape does NOT treat Harry fairly; I KNOW I've already made this argument elswhere, but Snape is especially difficult on Harry, while letting Slytherins (specifically Draco) get away with murder. This by definition is unfair. You've even blown a hole in your own argument; you use the the phrase "in [Snape's] own mind." Frankly, I don't think that Harry is treated totally differently than other students. Dumbledore is lenient with Harry, no argument there, but I think that these are *very* special circumstances. Besides, whose to say that Dumbledore isn't lenient with anyone else? The only real student-Dumbledore interaction we see is between Harry and Dumbledore. If Draco went around trying to prove people innocent, catch servants of Voldemort, and attempting to do good in general, then I'm sure Dumbledore would be just as lenient. However, Draco is a nasty little boy with an ego problem. I wash my hands of this whole argument. Feel fee to disagree, but at this point, if I can't make you believe, I never will. -Scott (whose practically forgotten what he set out to prove-- oh right, that Snape is totally lacking in rationality in certain instances, ie the Shrieking Shack. Why did I have to argue this in the first place?) PS: I've noticed some 'Snape and Respect' posts popping up. I'd just like to say one thing- I think that people should be given the benefit of the doubt; you lose your respect for a person when they show that they no longer deserve your respect. Now, if after 4 books, you still think Snape deserves Harry's respect... well, then you must be a very, erm... 'respectful' person. From jferer at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 03:10:56 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 03:10:56 -0000 Subject: Harry Will Be Accused and Locked up in Azkaban/ His Escape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51052 Kathleen:"Good point about the strategic value of keeping the WW in disbelief about the return of Voldemort....however, to continue that ploy, there would be three other deaths they would have to explain. 1. Bertha Jorkins, 2. Frank Bryce (although this death may not be as significant) 3. Crouch Sr. At least two of these deaths will need to be explained somehow, even if they pin Cedric's death on Harry. Will they attribute the deaths to Harry? How?" It's not clear how much notice has been taken of these deaths. We know Bertha's been murdered, but the wizard population doesn't, not that we've heard about yet. She's just missing. (Don't forget, we readers have all the inside information, and the wizarding public doesn't usually know as much as we do.) Nobody in the WW except Dumbledore appears either to know or care about Frank. His disappearance was in the Muggle papers, not the Prophet. Crouch Sr. is a problem. The fact Crouch Jr. was alive is going to be a big story if it gets out, and people will be willing to believe Jr. did it as revenge against his father. For once, what the public believes will be close to the truth, but what they won't hear is the 'faithful servant of a revived Voldemort' part. Kathleen:"One possibility would be if Crouch Sr.'s death was pinned on Hagrid...after all...his "bone" transfigured body was buried outside Hagrid's hut. How long will it take for Fang to dig it up and leave it lying around Hagrid's place? As for Bertha Jorkins...this would be a little tougher to explain without including Voldemort...unless someone went out to Albania to search for her body." The Crouch Junior revenge story is good enough, unless Fudge decides to keep it quiet. Then they'll need a scapegoat, and your scenario could come into effect. This only works if Dumbledore, Harry, and McGonagall are discredited first, because they know the truth. Snape doesn't count because he's gone underground. Unlike Bertha, I don't think they can just let Crouch Senior stay missing. Kathleen:"Also, don't forget the Dark Mark conjured with Harry's wand...checked by Amos Diggory himself. Both Crouch Jr. and Crouch Sr. can no longer take credit for/explain that mystery." I wonder what happened to Barty Junior's body? If you can produce the corpus delicti of someone everybody thought was dead for years, maybe you can explain it. Kathleen:"In addition, the MoM would have to explain the appearance of the Dark Mark on Snape's arm, as well as the disappearance of Karkaroff. I guess leaving Voldemort out of the picture could work....and certainly would be desirable strategically, but would the WW believe fabricated explanations for all of the other Voldemort related deaths and disappearances?" Snape's gone underground and Karkaroff has flown; no Dark Marks to exhibit. Snape, if he returns to Hogwarts, will be working as a double agent, so he can't come forward to corroborate Dumbledore's story and have any chance of preserving his cover. I realize the difficulties in keeping the knowledge of Voldemort's rebirth quiet, BUT: ** I feel sure the Death Eaters will try hard to keep the public from becoming alert to Voldemort's return. That suits Fudge just fine, since he doesn't want to believe Voldemort's back. Yes, they might fail. ** The wizarding public won't want to feel that there's a threat, so they'll be very willing to buy into anything that makes them feel less threatened. The public knows less than we readers do anyway. ** The MoM (Fudge's MoM, anyway) will work to convince the public Voldemort hasn't returned, and you should go about your normal buisness, etc. etc. ** Rita (unless Hermione has fixed her wagon really well) will be more than willing to provide all the scapegoats anyone could desire. OTOH, I have faith in our girl, RoughJustice!Hermione, to take care of Rita decisively. BTW, Tanya asks who the next chief of Magical Law Enforcement will be? Well, we don't know who the current chief is, but I fear who the next one will be: Alden MacNair. Jim Ferer, fearing he's making the HP series sound like it had been written by John Le Carre instead of JKR. From snorth at ucla.edu Thu Jan 30 03:13:33 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 19:13:33 -0800 Subject: Oops! Dumbledore did it again! References: <1e1.a89842.2b69bc37@cs.com> Message-ID: <00ce01c2c80d$9369f500$d3447442@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 51053 Sheryl > The thing about the first book, however, is that the stone would have > actually been *safer* if Harry had not interfered. Voldemort/Quirrell could > have stood there all night, did all the hocus pocus imaginable and still > could not have gotten the stone out of that mirror because of selfish > motives. In every other book Harry's help has been needed, but in the first > book I think Harry just stuck his nose in where it didn't belong. Still > love him for it, though. You can't guarantee that Quirrel would have NEVER gotten the stone out of the mirror. We, the reader, have no way of knowing this (for all we know, Quirrel could have thrown a brick at it, and the stone would have tumbled out *grins*). We can only assume that Harry going after the stone was the best possible outcome, because it resulted in thwarting Quirrelmort. -Scott From editor at texas.net Thu Jan 30 03:17:59 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 21:17:59 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and respect References: Message-ID: <008401c2c80e$43483c20$8c6463d1@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 51054 What a great thread! Ah, for the days when only two of my children could walk or talk, I was at home all day, and could post to my heart's content. Marina said > I think Snape's "purpose" is really just an excuse. He's harsh > because he likes being harsh. Sort of. This is hard to frame and express accurately. My take on Snape is that he simply doesn't care on the level we are examining this. Not that he is unaware that it was a cruel thing to say; I'm sure he did. But I don't think he gets off on being mean to the students or is on a power trip or anything like that. In past attempts to express this, I've said he's on "autopilot." His frame of reference is completely off the map from what we're concerned about. Givens: (1) Snape probably is jealous of Harry's fame. Snape put in a lot of dangerous time in the trenches, and no-the-hell-body knows diddly about it, and Harry didn't do anything but sit there, and he's a household word. How irritating. That said, though, I think this jealousy is not an overriding thing; I think it's on the scale that I experience at work--I'll put in hours and hours on a project, feel real pride in it, and genuinely enjoy standing in the back hearing reactions to it and simply knowing I was a big part of it. There is *always* one tiny part that wants recognition for my role--I will sometimes let drop in conversations the part I played--but it's not a driving thing. Lack of knowledge of my contribution is more of an irritant. Which is how I see Snape's reaction to Harry's fame. Irritating, but minor. [This is augmented by the Harry=Mini-James effect, see Given #3] (2) Snape, I believe, sees Ron and Hermione as adjuncts to Harry. He never saw Hermione as anything else, even when she was. In that first classroom scene, she was not yet a friend of Harry, but I think Snape believed she was because of the way Harry deflected Snape's questions to her. I think it is a tragedy of Snape's character that he cannot appreciate the talent Hermione has because of the emotional filters he's projecting. Paderewski teaching piano, indeed, and hating the one student he's got with a natural ear for music. So I believe that Snape's automatic responses to Hermione and Ron are "set" to a nastier level than other students. (3) I also believe that Snape is projecting rather a lot. I think that he retreated emotionally a long time ago, for whatever reason--love, horror at his own actions, whatever trauma, he retreated from it rather than face it. His reactions and judgements have not matured since then, even if his intellect and experience have. Consequently, the reactions that Harry and his friends provoke are, in large percent, still largely reactions to James and his friends. Snape is, by tromping on Harry, making sure James gets the comeuppance that Snape never saw him get at school. Similarly, by favoring Draco, Snape is giving himself the breaks he never got at school. [I am not saying AT ALL that this is all there is to Snape's actions--I think Snape operates on many levels simultaneously. I am speaking of the subconscious in this aspect--I think he's consciously unaware that he is doing this, because he is ferociously proud and would probably recognize the childishness of what he is doing if he let himself. So he does not let himself. I will not get into my theory that on the conscious level, he's taking a malicious pleasure in favoring Draco, knowing he is letting Lucius' son grow up unprepared and inexperienced in facing adversity.] Okay, with those givens, here's what I think Snape is about in his interactions with his students. Snape has seen incredible horrors in his rather short life. I am theorizing, but I'd imagine that to be a useful spy he probably had to be rather close to Voldemort. He has probably seen people he knows have terrible things done to them. He has probably done terrible things, whether willingly or un or both. He has had to make choices on the fly and let conclusions be drawn about him in order to protect his larger role. He's been in life-and-death situations; and given what we know of at least one horrible Dark-inclined creature, likely, worse-than-death situations. This is playing on a major scale. He carries that scale with him. And measured against that scale, hurting the feelings of a girl doesn't even register. I'm sure he was aware that it was a cruel thing to say, but at the same time, on some level, it simply doesn't matter that it was mean or that she was hurt. Snape may well, at some time, have been capable of sympathy or empathy. He's certainly sensitive enough. But given his past as a DE, if Snape let himself be empathetic on any level, it could be the break in the dam. He'd implode. Perhaps his psyche is protecting itself by insulating him in that mantle of cruelty. So he doesn't care. He won't care. He simply goes about his duties and interacts with students carelessly. On autopilot. Not involving himself in those interactions as much as they do, because (a) his world is bigger; (b) his experience is broader; (c) he cannot pull back from the level of trauma he has experienced, sufficiently to consider an insult to be traumatic. If that makes any sense. ~Amandageist, old Snapologist From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 30 03:22:48 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 03:22:48 -0000 Subject: Snape's rationality In-Reply-To: <008201c2c80b$02921a00$d3447442@xyrael> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51055 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Scott Northrup" wrote: > > PS: I've noticed some 'Snape and Respect' posts popping up. I'd just like > to say one thing- I think that people should be given the benefit of the > doubt; you lose your respect for a person when they show that they no > longer deserve your respect. Now, if after 4 books, you still think Snape > deserves Harry's respect... well, then you must be a very, erm... > 'respectful' person. Well, respect doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing proposition. I think Snape's courage and his principled commitment to Dumbledore's cause deserve respect, a fact that Harry is only just beginning to realize at the end of GoF. But his cruel and unfair teaching methods don't deserve respect, and Harry is right to resent them. Of course, it's very difficult to simultaneously respect one aspect of a person's character and despise another. I'm really looking forward to seeing Harry struggle with that in OoP. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From metal_tiara at hotmail.com Thu Jan 30 03:23:18 2003 From: metal_tiara at hotmail.com (sophineclaire ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 03:23:18 -0000 Subject: Snape and respect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51056 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros " wrote: > > > > I have to agree, this upsets me to no end. Certainly recognition for > what went on was warranted but this blatant calculation to embarrass > Snape in front of the entire school makes me cringe. It also sets a > pattern of behaviour for Dumbledore towards his "trused confidante" > Snape which personally I find appalling. > I got another view of this when my British husband watched TMTMNBN > the first time. He was raised in the Brit School "house" system. He > was HORRIFIED when that happened. > What kind of relationship do Dumbledore and Snape have anyways ? While DD does give Snape shelter and a place to work, He seems to take every opportunity to take a jab at Snape. While it seems that Snape does deserve these stabs (and I suppose it's shown for the readers sake) it strikes me as unprofessional and best left to private discussions and giggles amongst the faculty. As much as DD emphasizes to Harry and others (basically the jury during the trial in GOF) that Snape switched sides of his own accord, I have an impression that DD is maybe being a little less than generous when it comes to the reason why he trusts Snape. It's got to be something that he can hold over Snape's head and keep him in line. What it is, I don't know, but I have long since jumped ship from LOLLIPOPS, trying to avoid the CHOPpy waters and have become a little worried about the SILKSHIRTS and FEATHERBOAS that are floating around. > Melpomene (who really would love to stand behind Severus and convince > him to say, just once "Listen to me you old fool! No, don't put me > off with some silly pudding or tales about your fabulous memory, You > be quiet and LISTEN TO ME!" HA! Of course Dumbledore should listen to Snape. Then maybe bad DADA teachers will be stopped before anything bad happens. Again. -SophineClaire From snorth at ucla.edu Thu Jan 30 03:28:49 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 19:28:49 -0800 Subject: Snape's rationality References: Message-ID: <011a01c2c80f$b61e7830$d3447442@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 51057 > Well, respect doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing proposition. I > think Snape's courage and his principled commitment to Dumbledore's > cause deserve respect, a fact that Harry is only just beginning to > realize at the end of GoF. But his cruel and unfair teaching > methods don't deserve respect, and Harry is right to resent them. > Of course, it's very difficult to simultaneously respect one aspect > of a person's character and despise another. I'm really looking > forward to seeing Harry struggle with that in OoP. Agreed, totally. Actually, I thought Snape was a fairly one-dimensional "I'm only here to give the protagonist a hard time" character until later on in GoF. I'm definitely interested in seeing not only how Harry sees Snape in OotP, but also how Snape treats Harry (I personally think it would be difficult for Snape to not have a ton of respect for Harry, after Harry went toe-to-toe with Voldemort and escaped with his life). -Scott (Who honestly doesn't hate Snape, despite previous posts) From Zarleycat at aol.com Thu Jan 30 03:37:46 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001 ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 03:37:46 -0000 Subject: Snape and respect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51058 > I REPLY: > I have to disagree with that. There's a theme > in that first day in the classroom. Snape mentions > it twice by different names. > > (During roll call:) > "Harry Potter. Our new - celebrity." > (PS/SS 136) > > (When Harry can't answer the question:) > "Tut, tut - fame clearly isn't everything." > (PS/SS 137) > > Snape has issues with the idea that celebrities > get off easy. He had issues with that quality in > James Potter, and I believe that Snape is making > an example of Harry in front of the class for two > reasons: > 1) To let HARRY know, in no uncertain terms, that > no matter how many professors pander to him and > let him get away with whatever he wants because > he's "famous Harry Potter," HE, for one, won't > be doing that. Yikes!! It was their very first Potions class at the very beginning of the school year. How was Snape to know that anyone might pander to famous Harry Potter? Is he amazingly prescient? Is he, in his oh- so-caring way, trying to save Harry from getting a puffed-up view of himself? Doubtful. Pure and simple, Snape went after Harry in that class like a shark scenting blood in the water. He brought up Harry's fame and then proceeded to show how little Harry knew. I read that scene as a deliberate attempt to humiliate Harry. And, if what Snape truly wants to make sure that Harry realizes Snape will not show him any favoritism because of his fame, why confront him and show him up at the very beginning of class? Why not take him aside, privately and say, "Potter, I don't care what you may have done or what powers you have. In my class, you toe the line." > 2) To let the other kids know the same thing. > I'd bet that Snape probably wasn't a very popular > student when he was at school. And I'll bet that > he probably didn't get away with the stuff that > the Marauders did. Why? Because he wasn't popular > and on the Quidditch team. So, are you saying that adult, authority-figure Professor Snape is justified in verbally beating up on Harry without provocation in that first class because Snape *may* have been unpopular when he was at school? That, to me, shows Snape in a most unsavory light. Why do you think Snape was unpopular? Even Sirius, who we know can't stomach Snape, tells the Trio of the other students Snape hung around with. If Snape was truly friendless, I would think Sirius would not hesitate to tell the kids that Snape was so horrible even his housemates couldn't stand him. Yet, he doesn't. And, why do people assume that the Marauders got away with everything? McGonagall talks about what trouble-makers James and Sirius were in the Three Broomsticks scene in PoA. To me that implies that they were caught a fair amount of times. Did they always get away with no punishment? Or did the problem arise because, in Snape's eyes, they weren't punished often enough or severely enough? And, if that's the case, since we don't have definitive canon on that sitiuation, doesn't Student!Snape's view of being the victim of favoritism parallel Harry's views with regard to how Snape treats the Slytherins in his class? Marianne From Malady579 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 30 03:44:29 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 03:44:29 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Dumbledore's feelings about Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51059 Sitting sideways in her cushy armchair positioned perfectly in the sunlight from the window, Melody watched Grey Wolf carry off Coney to teach her to trust her instinct and hunt with no fear. "Fear," Melody thought out loud twisting one of her curls around her finger. "Funny word there. Does Dumbledore *fear* Voldemort?" She bounced her legs against the arm of the chair, and thought about what all he just said. "Gracious, Grey is back for ten minutes and he already has me turning canons over in my head," she grumbled but was slightly pleased. She kicked her legs back over and squared her jaw. Rising up, she crossed over to the kitchen back door and left to find the wolf and her bunny deep in the forest. They were right at the edge when Melody caught up with them. "Grey," she called a few yards away. "Yes, Mel?" he called back smiling. "Oh wipe that smile off your face," she fussed as he came into focus. "You baited me back there." "Why is it that everything you say lately has to do with baiting?" he asked sitting down on a tree stump and curling Coney in his lap. His smile had not left and he seemed quite pleased with himself. "Sorry. Some ideas never fall from the mind. But, how can you say Dumbledore *fears* Voldemort?" she asked looking straight in his eyes. He blinked a bit. "Easy. He does." "Ok," she began as she paced in front of him, "I can see Dumbledore being cautious and deeply careful with his steps. I can see Dumbledore wanting to create Hogwarts a safe haven from Voldemort, but Grey, that safe haven is created because Voldemort fears Dumbledore. If Dumbledore cannot, and will not kill him, then why would Voldemort fear anything that Dumbledore can do to him? In Voldemort's eyes, there is more to fear here then. You said yourself, Dumbledore will not use Avada Kedavra out of nobility, so then what is it that Voldie fears exactly? Being tricked into being caught and kept at Azkaban? "You said in a duel, Voldemort would win because he would use the unblockable AK on Dumbledore. I think that is a fair and reasonable assumption. Voldemort, given the chance, would kill Dumbledore. So then, what is stopping him? Why does he not get up, go there, and do it? It is not out of respect, or even fair play obviously. Seems, if I was a dark wizard and I would use spells and potions that no one else can except this one guy who will not, then I would rule the world. And yet, even though Voldemort has all this power, he is scared because someone else could too? That makes no sense Grey. "Maybe this is a case of equals knowing what the other is truly capable of. Maybe Dumbledore truly does deep down fear Voldemort. It is just..." Grey sat and stroked Coney. He looked up and watched the girl count out her thoughts. Knowing better than to interrupt her now, he stayed quiet. "Remember the boggarts?" Melody paused and asked. Grey nodded. "Remember that Harry did not fear Voldemort the most?" Melody asked. Grey nodded. "Are you telling me the only character in the books that does not fear Voldemort is Harry?" she asked. Grey looked up blankly and said nothing. Melody began again, "See - the way I see it. There are precious few people in the series to date that will actually say Voldie's name without prompting or reserve. Dumbledore, Harry, Sirius, and Lupin. Interesting line of people there really. Even Snape has not said it. So, what is the line that draws those four together? They do not fear Voldie. That is what I always assumed at least. Is it more, they do not fear the name? "Come now Grey, a name is just a name, but you yourself know how much a person is linked of their name or you would not of adopted your own. The name conjures up the person in your mind, and it is that which you are reacting too. The wizard world fears to say Voldemort because they do not want to face their fears. The name brings up the image of evil, death, and decay. The fab four listed above do not fear to say it because they have conquered that fear. They are at least confronting it and dealing with it. Maybe at the end of the series, every wizard should raise a glass saying 'To Voldemort, the name we shall say.'" Melody stopped pacing and looked at the wolf. He looked up and back at her and sighed. "Come now. You didn't expect your first day home to be that easy, did you Grey?" the girl smiled. Melody From editor at texas.net Thu Jan 30 04:02:53 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 22:02:53 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's rationality References: <008201c2c80b$02921a00$d3447442@xyrael> Message-ID: <009b01c2c814$8a224cc0$8c6463d1@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 51060 I hope I get the attributions right; this is a very involved thread. I think actually they're all Scott. Loads of stuff has been snipped; I just responded to the stuff that struck me. > Anyway, seeing that Dumbledore trusts Snape, where I doubt many others > would, I don't think he has a right to question Dumbledore's decision to > hire a werewolf. I think he does. Snape does not carry an incurable disease that carries a horrible secondary effect of complete social ostracization. Lupin does. Lupin is a danger physically, socially, irrevocably, to the children's entire future and life. Snape may be a traumatic emotional experience necessitating therapy, but it is not the dead-end road that lycanthropy is. > Look, I don't care if it's from Harry's point of view or Ghandi's. A > thousand lawyers couldn't argue that Snape was in total control of his > senses if they had a thousand years. Yes they could. They're lawyers. They don't have to be right. Snape was not in total control of himself. However, I will argue that his lack of control *was* based on a completely reasonable interpretation of the situation. Incorrect, but totally reasonable given the facts Snape possessed. And those facts did seem to be complete, and not only to Snape; he was not doing a whole lot of jumping. I'll never say Snape wasn't delighted to be in the position he was in--he *was*--but he also firmly believed he was *right,* with good reason. > Snape however, is so enraged, he won't even > listen to the facts. Not precisely true. Snape already *knows* the facts, or he thinks he does. What Snape is doing is refusing to listen to a possible alternate interpretation, for what (from his point of view) are some very good reasons. > I don't care what Snape's situation is; he LOSES HIS MIND. He gives no one > a chance to explain anything, and threatens to have Sirius killed without > ever giving Sirius a chance to explain himself, simply because of his hate. > > I can say that the only way you would have behaved similarly in that part, > is if you also happened to harbor an intense hatred for Sirius, Lupin and > Harry. Also recall. Snape, like Dumbledore, belongs to the Anti-Exposition League. We do not know much of what he's thinking. But we *do* know that he knows that Lupin didn't take his potion that night and will at some point become a werewolf. He does not bother to say this (from a plot point of view, he *can't* because it would spoil the scene later), but I'm sure that pressure of time was an operating factor in his impatience. He also knows that Sirius is a wizard to be reckoned with. He has absolutely no reason *not* to believe his version of the facts, which is complete if wrong. He also has no desire to stand there and talk with a very powerful and (he believes) dangerous and (he believes) homicidal wizard who (he believes) is intent on killing one of the children in the room and (he believes) would not stop at killing all the rest to achieve that end. Snape is in a very, very dangerous situation (he believes) and although he does it with very little grace, he is legitimately trying to address a very dangerous situation, protecting three children who are not appreciative in the slightest from a situation which (he believes) they don't understand. He was also frustrated beyond belief that the children refused to realize their danger or acknowledge his authority (or risk to himself in being there to help them), which also added to his fury. Given all of that, I'd be a little on the stressed side myself. Adding old antipathy to the mix surely didn't help. So I have never honored Snape for his behavior in the Shack, but I've also never blamed him for it. He was acting consistent with the facts as he knew them and taking action to remedy the situation as he saw it. > Snape does NOT treat Harry fairly; I KNOW I've already made this argument > elswhere, but Snape is especially difficult on Harry, while letting > Slytherins (specifically Draco) get away with murder. This by definition is > unfair. Who said Snape treated Harry fairly? And even if they did, um, so what if he doesn't? Nobody promised fair. I think Harry will come to appreciate the ultimate effect of Snape's attitude--for Harry does not expect fair from him, and he learns to handle adversity and deal with it. Draco has learned nothing except how to sponge and whine. Who will be the better prepared in the next Voldemort years? > PS: I've noticed some 'Snape and Respect' posts popping up. I'd just like > to say one thing- I think that people should be given the benefit of the > doubt; you lose your respect for a person when they show that they no > longer deserve your respect. Now, if after 4 books, you still think Snape > deserves Harry's respect... well, then you must be a very, erm... > 'respectful' person. It goeth both ways. In one instance at least, Snape deserved Harry's thanks. When motives had been clarified for Harry at the end of PS, and he realized that Snape had been working to *save* his life--and did, by delaying Quirrel's hex until Hermione's action ended it--he does nothing. I don't care how much I think someone hates me. I don't care how much I hate them. If they saved my life, I'm letting them know I appreciate it. That Harry does not at the very least simply acknowledge, to Snape, an awareness of Snape's efforts (including refereeing a Quidditch match to protect him further) has always rather surprised and disappointed me. So Harry has also not particularly merited Snape's respect, either. From Snape's viewpoint, Harry *has* broken rules and gotten away with it, and made the most of it. He's also demonstrably ungrateful, a perception further borne out by Harry's refusal to, at the very least, simply acknowledge that Snape was trying to save him in the Shack. Snape is the sort who bestows respect where he sees it earned. Up to this point, Harry has not earned it. However, I believe Snape is also honest with himself, and I believe he will accord respect even to someone he dislikes if they meet his own internal criteria. I think that different look they exchange at the end of book 4 may be a dawning of respect for Harry, as well as finally seeing Harry as himself and not mini-James. Just a few thoughts. ~Amandageist, Snapologist From devika at sas.upenn.edu Thu Jan 30 04:27:11 2003 From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (Devika ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 04:27:11 -0000 Subject: Too Many Acronyms Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51061 Hi everyone, As I was reading the past few posts, I realized that a lot of people make reference to various acronyms from time to time. Now, I've been part of this group for quite a while now, but I've only recently begun to read and post messages on a regular basis again after taking a several-month-long hiatus. I remember being here for the inception of some of the acronyms (CRAB AND LOLLIPOPS come to mind), but I sometimes have a hard time following and remembering what all of them stand for and what they mean. And then more have been created during my absence that I'm completely confused about, no matter how much I try to find them in previous posts. Just in the past hour or so, I've come across SILKSHIRT, FEATHERBOA, LOLLIPOPS, and CHOP, only one of which I'm completely sure about. Not to mention MAGIC DISHWASHER, which I still don't understand, although I'm sure that one must have been explained thoroughly, and I just missed it. So I was wondering: is there some kind of all-inclusive list of these acronyms, complete with meanings, or should I just keep searching the archives for the first post in which they were introduced? Just a thought. Someone please tell me I'm not the only one to have this problem :) Devika From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 04:35:41 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 04:35:41 -0000 Subject: House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51062 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sophineclaire " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Maria Kirilenko > wrote: > > > > Tom wrote: > > > I mean, come ON: Dumbledore PERSONALLY overturned > > > the official results of the House Cup in PS/SS. Sure, > > > WE know why that happened, and as readers who identify > > > with Harry, WE'RE glad to see him win, but let's face > > > it - that is concrete and indisputable favoritism. > > > > > > Alla answered: > > So, Harry and Co did not deserve the points for defeating > > Quirrelmort? I think that this was justice, not favouritism. > > > > Me: > > > > I really have to agree with Tom here. HHR and Neville did deserve > some sort of praise, maybe even in the form of points, but I think > that assigning the exact number of points needed to win the House > Cup was extremely blatant favouritism. > > ...edited... > > But of course, look at all those points Slytherin had. As a > House, they won because their house worked for those points. Some of > them had to give the right answers in class and do extra credit > assignments and win at Quidditch, only one student got caught out of > bed and was punished for it. ...edited... > > Well, that was really disconnected > > sophineclaire bboy_mn: Perspective- Playing a trick on Draco (from McGonagall's perspective) and being out after curfew. MINUS 50 points each (Harry, Hermione, Neville = -150) Ron- The significants of Ron's chess game was not that he beat one of the best chess players on the staff (McGonagall, it was her enchanted chess set), and although we can't prove it, we would assume that McGonagall played to her strengths in choosing a chess obstical to guard the stone. It was in Ron Sacrificing his own life for the greater good of all. Although, Ron didn't die, when he sacrificed himself to the towering merciless solid stone Queen, he had every expectation of dying. Summation - Beat the best chess player in the house. Sacrificed his life for his friends and for the greater good of all including the great good of all Slytherins. PLUS 50 points. Oh sure, that seems fair, out of bed MINUS 50 points, sacrifice your life for the greater good, show courage, bravery, selfsacrifice and heroism beyond what most adult wizards could muster; PLUS 50 points. Hermione- Well, she did the least, but she was brave enough to attempt to save the stone, when most students would have stayed safe in bed. I seriously doubt that any Slytherins would have put the good of the world over their own safety. Draco certainly wouldn't have. The very first thing she does when they enter the enchanted chambers is save Harry and Ron's life. Next, she assist in capturing the Key. Harry would have had a hard time, without Ron and Hermione running interferrence and herding the key toward him. Then we come to Hermione's own shining moment; the Riddle of the Potions. I suspect that most adult wizards and witches couldn't solve the Riddle even if they started out with the answer. A stunning achievement of intelect and logic. And let's remember that a lot hung in the balance, not just did access to the stone, but some of the potions were poison, one drink and you are dead, then the walls of flame, one misinterpretation of a phrase and either she or Harry were torched. She didn't have to be down there. She could have said, it's not my problem. But she didn't, she put her life on the line and show bravery and courage equal to the rest, and display intellect and logic beyond most living wizards and witches. Of all the obsticals leading up to the final chamber, I would say the Riddle of the Potions was the most ingenious (I bow to Snape). Very very few in the wizard world could have passed that obstical. Summary- Out of bed after hours and assumed to be in on playing a joke on Draco. MINUS 50 points. Loyalty, courage and bravery equaled by very very few, logic and intellect of genius caliber. A selfless effort for the greater good, and an unyeilding desire to what is right rather than what is correct. PLUS 50 points. Harry- At 11 years of age, with the help of his friends, defeated the best protections the staff of Hogwarts had to offer, not to mention solving the mystery to the extent that they were even able to get down into the enchanted chambers. He displayed a selflessness beyond measure. A higher morality, unblinking courage, outstanding bravery, and again a selflessness and selfsacrifice that is equalled by very very very few in the wizard world. Harry was 11 years old, 11 year olds throw spit balls in class, play in the mud, make 'can I see Uranus' jokes. That Stone didn't belong to Harry, why should he care if someone stole it? But he did care, he cared because he knew caring was the correct moral choice. His own life meant nothing along side doing what was right. He didn't ask for help, he knew what had to be done, and he choose to do it. He neither asked for nor expected anyone else to risk themselves for his choice. Then in the final chamber, we have a determined 11 year old boy with hardly any training, against a full grown and powerful wizard who also had Voldemort's power backing him up, and even knowing all this. Even knowing the overwhelming hopeless situation he was facing, he chose to stand and fight what was surely a battle lost before it began. But that is what brave and noble men do, they defend themselves even when no defense is possible, they fight the battle even knowing that the battle is lost. Brave and noble men like 11 year old Harry Potter don't weigh the personal cost, they choose to fight for what they know is right, and they do so for no reason other than it is the right thing to do. He chose to sacrifice his own life in an effort to save the stone. He knew to do otherwise would bring to immortality the greatest force of evil in a hundred years. And for this... for all this... PLUS 60 points PLUS 60 points For his willingness to sacrifice his life, for nerve, courage, nobility, and bravery, for daring to face a force of evil so strong that most wizards won't even speak it's name, for having the moral fiber to put the good of the world above his own life, for being an eleven year old boy with a heart and soul greater than most living wizards, for all this.... PLUS 60 points????? And people think Dumbledore was being overly generous? Slytherin won a few Quidditch matchs and answered a few questions in class, Harry Potter sacrificed his own life to save the wizard world from a great force of evil, and he did so with no desire for or expectation of a reward. If anything Dumbledore made a major effort to restrain his handing out of points. He gave the trio a modest... an extremely modest under the circumstance, award of point, just enought to tie with Slytherin, then is a gesture equal to the great man that he is, he gave a small award of points, hardly more than a token, to Neville, and did so in a way that made it seem as if Neville's points had won them the House Cup. For one brief shining moment, he made Neville a hero, and he did so with a mere 10 points. Harry, Ron, and Hermione achieved something, they achieved something that even the best of wizards were not likely to achieve. They demonstrated courage, skill, and logic beyond what any one could expect from anyone, and for this, a mere 160 points. No, I think Dumbledore greatly restrained himself. 200 or 500 points each would have been more like it when you consider the magnitude of what three 11 year olds were able to accomplish. Along side this, what did any of the other houses accomplish? He gave them the bare minimum points to equal a tie for the cup, then gave poor Neville who had never so much as won a single point, the decisive points to assure an EXTEMELY MODEST victory. One that was well earned in view of their nearly impossible achievement. Sorry, but you will never convince me that evil Dumbledore snatch an undeserved victory from the hands of the poor hard working deserving Slytherins and gave it to Gryffindor. They deserves three times the point that he awarded them, but he chose to be very modest about it. That is my story and I am sticking to it. bboy_mn From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Thu Jan 30 04:35:57 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 04:35:57 -0000 Subject: Barty Crouch Knows the Rules (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51063 Inspired by a recent viewing of Chicago, IMO the best screen-version Broadway since 1972's Cabaret (this version follows the screen rather than the slightly different stage version) Barty Crouch Knows the Rules (GoF, Chap. 17) To the tune of They Both Reached for the Gun, from the musical Chicago Dedicated to Gail B. NOTE: This is to be staged like the analogous scene in the film version of Chicago, where Richard Gere serves as Renee Zellwegger's ventriloquist before a crowd of FeedingFrenzy!Media. I here picture CROUCH SR. as a powerless puppet totally under the control of his disguised son. Although "MOODY" is obviously speaking for CROUCH, none of the participants in the scene take the slightest notice. THE SCENE: Darkness VOLDEMORT (cold high voice-over): Mr. Barty Crouch Junior sings the "Imperius Rag" ? Notice how his mouth never moves ? helpless Almost. CUT TO: Lights up on a room adjacent to the Great Hall. SNAPE, MAXIME & KARKAROFF react with fury to HARRY's inclusion in the TriWizard Games, but their arguments are dismissed by the Imperio'd!Barty Crouch. SNAPE (music) Potter's lying "MOODY" (as CROUCH, SR) Couldn't happen KARKAROFF & MAXIME Did he sneak past? "MOODY" (as CROUCH, SR) We weren't nappin' SNAPE Crossed the age line "MOODY" (as CROUCH, SR) I don't see how MOODY Older students weren't involved "MOODY" (as CROUCH, SR) So that whole argument's dissolved! KARKAROFF Resubmit names "MOODY" (as CROUCH, SR) Don't work that way! MAXIME Then we withdraw! "MOODY" (as CROUCH, SR) You can't leave now! MAXIME & KARKAROFF What's to stop us? "MOODY" (as CROUCH, SR) Tri-Wiz game is Binding magical contract That no one ever can retract McGONAGALL (spoken) An age-line flaw!? Really, what nonsense! Dumbledore believes him. That's good enough! Now tell us, Alastor McGONAGALL & SNAPE (music) How did Potter .. "MOODY" Very simple MAXIME & KARKAROFF get his name in? "MOODY" Dark Art Evil SNAPE, MAXIME & KARKAROFF Are you crazy? "MOODY" (as CROUCH, SR) Call him "Mad-Eye"! "MOODY" Some dark wizard wants him dead FLEUR (haughtily) Tri-Wiz prize money turned his head SNAPE, MAXIME & KARKAROFF (sarcastically) How'd they do it? "MOODY" Confundus Charm SNAPE, MAXIME & KARKAROFF (sarcastically) How ingenious! "MOODY" Forged a fourth dorm SNAPE, MAXIME & KARKAROFF So we'll drop him? "MOODY" (as CROUCH, SR) He must compete Use the names from all the schools Because it says so in the rules "MOODY" & BAGMAN Oh yes Barty Crouch knows the rules Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes he knows Oh yes, he knows Oh yes, Barty Crouch knows The rules, the rules, the rules, the rules Oh yes, Barty Crouch knows the rules Knows the rules. MOODY, DUMBLEDORE, McGONAGALL & BAGMAN Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes he knows Oh yes, he knows Oh yes, Barty Crouch knows The rules, the rules, the rules, the rules Oh yes, Barty Crouch knows the rules Knows the rules. "MOODY" & CROUCH SR. (to themselves) Underhandedly, Underhandedly Yes, I'm/you're perfectly underhandable Unforgivable, unforgivable Not a bit unimpeachable I'm/you're so despicable! "MOODY" (as CROUCH, SR) addresses the four champions "MOODY" (as CROUCH, SR,) How're you feeling? FOUR CHAMPS Kinda nervous "MOODY" (as CROUCH, SR,) Are you ready? HARRY Are you kidding? "MOODY" (as CROUCH, SR,) Here's the first task: Test your daring Courage facing the unknown As you enter our danger zone FOUR CHAMPS And? "MOODY" (as CROUCH, SR,) Do not ask for FOUR CHAMPS What? "MOODY" (as CROUCH, SR,) aid or succor FOUR CHAMPS And? "MOODY" (as CROUCH, SR,) Skip your finals. FOUR CHAMPS What? "MOODY" (as CROUCH, SR,) Just bring wands FOUR CHAMPS Then what? "MOODY" (as CROUCH, SR,) Late November FOUR CHAMPS Yikes! "MOODY" (as CROUCH, SR,) Comes apace now FOUR CHAMPS When? "MOODY" (as CROUCH, SR,) When we see how champions respond! "MOODY" & CROUCH SR. (to themselves) Underhandedly, Underhandedly Yes, I'm/you're perfectly underhandable Unforgivable, unforgivable Not a bit unimpeachable I'm/you're so despicable! "MOODY" (as CROUCH, SR,) Let me hear it! ALL (except MOODY) Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes they'll/we'll all Oh yes, they'll/we'll all Oh yes, they'll/we'll all reach for Their/our wands, their/our wands, their/our wands, Their/our wands Oh yes, they'll/we'll all reach For their/our wands "MOODY" (as CROUCH, SR,) A little louder! ALL (except MOODY) For the wands. Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes they'll/we'll all Oh yes, they'll/we'll all Oh yes, they'll/we'll all reach For their/our wands, their/our wands "MOODY" (as CROUCH, SR,) Now you got it! ALL (except MOODY) Their/our wands, their/our wands Oh yes, they'll/we'll all reach For their/our wands For their/our wands. MOODY AND ALL Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes they'll/we'll all Oh yes, they'll/we'll all Oh yes, they'll/we'll all reach for Their/our wands, their/our wands their/our wands their/our wands Oh yes, they'll/we'll all reach for their/our wands. ALL (except CROUCH SR.) Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes Barty Oh yes, Barty Oh yes, Barty Crouch knows The rules, the rules, the rules, the rules, The rules, the rules, the rules, the rules, The rules, the rules, the rules, the rules, The rules, the rules, the rules, the rules. MOODY Barty Crouch knows the .rules. ALL (except MOODY & CROUCH SR.) The rules, the rules, the rules, the rules The rules, the rules, the rules, the rules The rules, the rules, the rules, the rules The rules, the rules, the rules, the rules Barty Crouch knows the rules. - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From snorth at ucla.edu Thu Jan 30 05:02:52 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 21:02:52 -0800 Subject: Snape's rationality References: <008201c2c80b$02921a00$d3447442@xyrael> <009b01c2c814$8a224cc0$8c6463d1@texas.net> Message-ID: <013701c2c81c$d98421f0$d3447442@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 51064 Amanda, you've made some excellent points. I'd just like to pose a couple of thoughts I've had. > I think he does. Snape does not carry an incurable disease that carries a > horrible secondary effect of complete social ostracization. Lupin does. > Lupin is a danger physically, socially, irrevocably, to the children's > entire future and life. Snape may be a traumatic emotional experience > necessitating therapy, but it is not the dead-end road that lycanthropy is. Well put. Now, rereading Chapters 18 and 19 of Prisoner of Azkaban, I'd just like to point out one thing. Snape's objection to Lupin is NOT that he directly endangers the students (by transforming and attacking students). He seems to judge Lupin as the rest of Wizarding community does; he seems to think that because Lupin is a werewolf, he is inherently evil and untrustworthy. It's loosely analgous to people's perceptions of HIV positive men, early in the history of HIV/AIDS- it was thought to be a disease afflicting mostly gay men, so people with HIV faced immense discrimination, not necessarily because they were contagious (though that was part of it too, I'm sure), but because they were 'gay.' Anyway, Snape was actually listening in on a good deal of the conversation, specifically the part where Lupin confesses his guilt over betraying Dumbledore's trust and not telling Dumbledore that Sirius is an Animagus. Even though Snape hears this, he still seems to believe that Lupin was helping Sirius get into the school (he was, I guess, though certainly not directly, like Snape claims) I'm having some trouble explaining this; I think rereading chapters 18 and 19 of PoA will explain what I'm talking about to an extent. Amanda: > Also recall. Snape, like Dumbledore, belongs to the Anti-Exposition League. > We do not know much of what he's thinking. But we *do* know that he knows > that Lupin didn't take his potion that night and will at some point become a > werewolf. He does not bother to say this (from a plot point of view, he > *can't* because it would spoil the scene later), but I'm sure that pressure > of time was an operating factor in his impatience. > > He also knows that Sirius is a wizard to be reckoned with. He has absolutely > no reason *not* to believe his version of the facts, which is complete if > wrong. He also has no desire to stand there and talk with a very powerful > and (he believes) dangerous and (he believes) homicidal wizard who (he > believes) is intent on killing one of the children in the room and (he > believes) would not stop at killing all the rest to achieve that end. Snape > is in a very, very dangerous situation (he believes) and although he does it > with very little grace, he is legitimately trying to address a very > dangerous situation, protecting three children who are not appreciative in > the slightest from a situation which (he believes) they don't understand. He > was also frustrated beyond belief that the children refused to realize their > danger or acknowledge his authority (or risk to himself in being there to > help them), which also added to his fury. Having reread Chapter 18 of Prisoner of Azkaban, and I think it will shed some light on this subject. Also, rereading the whole shreaking shack incident has brought up a couple of points in my mind If that is in fact a correct interpretation of Snape in this scene, and time is of the essence, Sirius is a cold blooded killer, etc, etc. Then why does he take his own sweet time? Snape has actually been in the room for a while before he chooses to show himself. He's been listening in on Lupin's explanations, and as I've said before, he should know that Lupin is not an enemy, at least not when he's in a human state. It woudl seem evident, that there is at least the possibility that Sirius isn't guilty, simply by the fact that the conversation is taking place. I can kind of see how it would be a tense situation for Snape, but he totally bungles it. Completely makes an fool of himself, and shows how petty he can be. The thing is, if Snape really thought there was some danger was imminent, then why didn't he just stun Sirius and Lupin immediately upon entering the room? Why didn't he take the potion with him? In my opinion (this is totally open for debate, I'm not really basing it off of anything), Snape wasn't even thinking about Lupin and the full moon. If he had been thinking about it, I don't think he would have taken his own sweet time, first spying and then gloating. I'm not really sure what I'm arguing, since we've both already agreed that he did not handle the situation with any grace. I guess I just don't feel that his bungling is justified; he clearly let his anger get the better of him. Oh well. -Scott (who wonders- why didn't Lupin take the Wolfsbane potion much, much earlier- he says it's effective as long as he takes it during the week of the Full moon) From starropal at hotmail.com Thu Jan 30 05:11:35 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 23:11:35 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Too Many Acronyms Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51065 Devika >So I was wondering: is there some kind of all-inclusive list of >these acronyms, complete with meanings, or should I just keep >searching the archives for the first post in which they were >introduced? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=13 _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 05:14:59 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 21:14:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030130051459.66792.qmail@web40504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51066 bboy_mn: Perspective- Playing a trick on Draco (from McGonagall's perspective) and being out after curfew. MINUS 50 points each (Harry, Hermione, Neville = -150) Ron- Oh sure, that seems fair, out of bed MINUS 50 points, sacrifice your life for the greater good, show courage, bravery, selfsacrifice and heroism beyond what most adult wizards could muster; PLUS 50 points. Hermione- Summary- Out of bed after hours and assumed to be in on playing a joke on Draco. MINUS 50 points. Loyalty, courage and bravery equaled by very very few, logic and intellect of genius caliber. A selfless effort for the greater good, and an unyeilding desire to what is right rather than what is correct. PLUS 50 points. Harry- PLUS 60 points For his willingness to sacrifice his life, for nerve, courage, nobility, and bravery, for daring to face a force of evil so strong that most wizards won't even speak it's name, for having the moral fiber to put the good of the world above his own life, for being an eleven year old boy with a heart and soul greater than most living wizards, for all this.... PLUS 60 points????? And people think Dumbledore was being overly generous? Slytherin won a few Quidditch matchs and answered a few questions in class, Harry Potter sacrificed his own life to save the wizard world from a great force of evil, and he did so with no desire for or expectation of a reward. No, I think Dumbledore greatly restrained himself. 200 or 500 points each would have been more like it when you consider the magnitude of what three 11 year olds were able to accomplish. Along side this, what did any of the other houses accomplish? He gave them the bare minimum points to equal a tie for the cup, then gave poor Neville who had never so much as won a single point, the decisive points to assure an EXTEMELY MODEST victory. One that was well earned in view of their nearly impossible achievement. Sorry, but you will never convince me that evil Dumbledore snatch an undeserved victory from the hands of the poor hard working deserving Slytherins and gave it to Gryffindor. They deserves three times the point that he awarded them, but he chose to be very modest about it. Me: Your analysis is very intimidating. But all this makes me wonder what exactly House points are awarded for. We know they're taken away for breaking rules (or just bothering Snape ). When I first started reading PS, I assumed that the whole thing was academic. Instead of grades, they receive House points. But I am not sure it's wise to compare academic success to the displays of courage, bravery, etc (you list 'em in full). Tom Riddle got a trophy (or whatever that was, my memory has just stopped functioning) for exposing the Heir of Slytherin, so why not do the same for HHR&N? But instead, Dumbledore just jumbles it all together with rewards for good behavior and good grades. This is what I do not like in Dumbledore's actions at the end of PS. He *ignores* all the hard work Slytherin (or whatever House) did throughout the whole year. Would it have been so hard for him to *both* give Slytherin the deserved House Cup and honor the kids for doing something that IMHO cannot and should not be measured in the same points that academics are? I think not. And, you know, Hogwarts is a *school*. Whatever the political/Voldemortical situation in the WW is, the purpose of Hogwarts is to educate kids, and evaluate their efforts and successes. With the education part, Dumbledore is good. With the evaluation part, he is mistaken, IMO. And whatever HHR's accomplishments in the obstacle course are (and I totally agree with you on those), awarding them just enough points for them to win the Cup is sending a bad message to other students - like, "whatever work you do and no matter how much you obey the rules, it won't matter." I stick with what I've said before - it's demoralizing forthe students and the staff, who abuse their rights of awarding and subtracting points anyway. Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From snorth at ucla.edu Thu Jan 30 05:22:04 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 21:22:04 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] House points and Dumbledore References: <20030130051459.66792.qmail@web40504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000b01c2c81f$875c4df0$d3447442@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 51068 Maria: > But all this makes me wonder what exactly House points are awarded for. We know they're taken away for breaking rules (or just bothering Snape ). > > When I first started reading PS, I assumed that the whole thing was academic. Instead of grades, they receive House points. > > But I am not sure it's wise to compare academic success to the displays of courage, bravery, etc (you list 'em in full). Tom Riddle got a trophy (or whatever that was, my memory has just stopped functioning) for exposing the Heir of Slytherin, so why not do the same for HHR&N? But instead, Dumbledore just jumbles it all together with rewards for good behavior and good grades. > > This is what I do not like in Dumbledore's actions at the end of PS. > > He *ignores* all the hard work Slytherin (or whatever House) did throughout the whole year. Would it have been so hard for >him to *both* give Slytherin the deserved House Cup and honor the kids for doing something that IMHO cannot and should not >be measured in the same points that academics are? I think not. I'd just like to note: "While you were at Hogwarts, your triumphs will earn your house points, while any rule breaking will lose house points." -McGonagall (PS/SS, chapter 7: The Sorting Hat") If thwarting minions of Voldemort isn't a triumph, I don't know what is. Note that the Houses get points for Quidditch, which isn't exactly academic either. -Scott (who thinks that Slytherin must have cheated to have ever had the lead in House Points.) From jodel at aol.com Thu Jan 30 05:59:25 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 00:59:25 EST Subject: Rita Skeeter: Loose Cannon Message-ID: <65.8755ba7.2b6a193d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51069 Wait a minute. Wait just a darn minute. We've overlooking something potentially very important. Rita's "secret" is *already* known. Pretty *widely* known, in fact. By *every fourth year in Slytherin House*! And do you really think she approached them and volunteered that information, merely trusting to their charitable natures not to blow the whistle? I don't think so! There was either a considerable degree of mutual negotiation between Rita and the [current] Slytherins to set up that little sweetheart deal, or they were instructed (or Draco was instructed) to cooperate with her by someone else, or she managed to obliviate the lot of them after her stint covering the Triwizard Tournement was over. In the last case; she got pretty lucky, because we are talking about at least six kids who needed to be tracked down and neutralized before they did her any damage. Crabbe and Goyle may not have been bright enough to figure out what the "bug' actually was, but Draco is, and I suspect so is Pansy. (Zabini and Bulstrode are still wild cards along with any other unnamed Slytherins, if any.) In the first case; they may very well have approached her. But how did they know to? And is her desire to do mischief on Dumbledore's turf so great that she would just hand that lot as potentially damaging a piece of information as the fact that she is an illegal Animagus? And if it is the second case; just what does she have on [Lucius Malfoy?] in return that has kept him from hanging her out to dry? Or is Rita another of his hired hands? I am developing a strong suspicion that Rita and Lucius (and Arthur Weasley) go back a long way. All the way to Hogwarts, in fact. And she was no Gryffandor. It is looking like Hermione doesn't have as big a barganing chip as she thought. Unless she's *really* sharp and thinks to offer Rita something she hasn't already got. And is willing to risk her neck on the gamble that, for all her unpleasantness, Rita is no Death Eater. (I tend toward that oppinion myself, but I could be wrong) Something like a story that will make parts of the Ministry look particularly bad. Like a cause celebre about a gross miscarriage of justice. Something that only a handful of people and the Death Eaters know. Something like the fact that Peter Pettigrew, Order of Merlin (poshumous) faked his death and lived in hiding for over a dozen years, and is now standing at Voldemort's right hand. Hell, if Rita keeps Voldemort's current status out of it, Lucius would probably pay her to print it! (And by this time exonerating Sirius Black is the sort of mass misdirection of public attention that Fudge would leap at. Particularly since the man who had Black carted off to Azkaban without trial is so conveniently dead.) Maybe, just maybe, the Marauders' unfinished business *isn't* going to be shoved to the back burner until book six. But I still believe that the central conflict of book five is between Dumbledore and the Ministry rather than between Dumbledore and the Death Eaters. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pat_mahony at hotmail.com Thu Jan 30 06:02:30 2003 From: pat_mahony at hotmail.com (The Kirk ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 06:02:30 -0000 Subject: Authorial Intent (was You're reading the wrong book) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51070 Pickle Jimmy wrote: > I just finished reading the "Snape and Respect" thread and couldn't > believe there are readers out there that thought Snape or Slytherin > were hard done by in the whole - Dumbledore point awarding affair at > the end of book one. > > I totally agree with bboy_mn who wrote (in part): > -- > No, I think Dumbledore greatly restrained himself. 200 or 500 points > each would have been more like it when you consider the magnitude of > what three 11 year olds were able to accomplish. Along side this, what > did any of the other houses accomplish? He gave them the bare minimum > points to equal a tie for the cup, then gave poor Neville who had > never so much as won a single point, the decisive points to assure an > EXTEMELY MODEST victory. One that was well earned in view of their > nearly impossible achievement. > Sorry, but you will never convince me that evil Dumbledore snatch an > undeserved victory from the hands of the poor hard working deserving > Slytherins and gave it to Gryffindor. They deserves three times the > point that he awarded them, but he chose to be very modest about it. Let me begin by stating that I agree with you- Dumbledore was completely justified in awarding those points to Gryffindor, and that I am by no means a Slytherin-sympathiser, and I don't find Snape particularly appealing. > JK is writing a book in which we are *meant* to - > > -Hate Malfoy and Love Harry > -Cheer for Gryffindor and Boo Slytherin > -Love Lupin, hate Snape, think Trelawney is an old crackpot and > cringe at Hermione's Lockhart crush > -See a struggle of good over evil in which good will eventually > triumph > -And understand that it is our choices above anything else that makes > us who we are. > > So, if you Love Snape and think he was mis-treated, if you cheer when > Slytherin win, if Malfoy the bouncing ferret brought a tear to your > eye (and not from laughing - like mine was), if you're hoping that > Lupin/Black/Dumbledore/McGonagall/etc turn out to be Evil, then *you > are reading the wrong book* However, I strongly disagree with your assertion here. While it is true that JKR is strongly positiong the reader to accept the points you outlined (and others), that is not to say that other interpretations are valid. Each individual forms their own opinions based on a variety of influences- cultural, social and historical context, personal experience, desire to be different, etc and if their interpretation doesn't comply with JKR's intention, it doesn't mean they are reading the *wrong* book, just that they perceive the book in a different way. As readers, we shouldn't let our interpretation and appreciation of the HP series be limited by only a few factors- and authorial intent is one of them. So even though I don't agree with Slytherin sympathisers, I do respect their right to maintain their own interpretation, and the right of any of the other wacky theories that exist on this list to be maintained. Okie doke, that's enough for now Roo From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 06:50:08 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 06:50:08 -0000 Subject: House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: <20030130051459.66792.qmail@web40504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51071 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Maria Kirilenko wrote: > > bboy_mn: > > Perspective- > > ...edited... > > Sorry, but you will never convince me that evil Dumbledore snatch an > undeserved victory from the hands of the poor hard working deserving > Slytherins and gave it to Gryffindor. They deserves three times the > point that he awarded them, but he chose to be very modest about it. > > > Me: (Maria) > > Your analysis is very intimidating. > > But all this makes me wonder what exactly House points are awarded > for. We know they're taken away for breaking rules (or just > bothering Snape ). > > When I first started reading PS, I assumed that the whole thing > was academic. Instead of grades, they receive House points. > > But I am not sure it's wise to compare academic success to the > displays of courage, bravery, etc (you list 'em in full). Tom > Riddle got a trophy (or whatever that was, my memory has just > stopped functioning) for exposing the Heir of Slytherin, so why > not do the same for HHR&N? But instead, Dumbledore just jumbles > it all together with rewards for good behavior and good grades. > > This is what I do not like in Dumbledore's actions at the end of PS. > > He *ignores* all the hard work Slytherin (or whatever House) did > throughout the whole year. > -end this part- bboy_mn responses: Ok, enough of this 'hard working Slytherins' baloney (cow cookies, meadow muffins, road apples). Snape probably showers points on the Slytherin like... er... water. Not to mention that their hard work consists of lying, cheating, and doing anything they can accept actually earning it, to achieve their ends. They are afteral Slytherins. Here is what McGonagall said about points: (my emphasis) "... your TRIUMPHS will earn your House points, while any rule-breaking will lose House points." Teachers seem to be able to add or subtract points based on their own criteria. Snape takes them away from people he doesn't like in a very arbitrary manner, and hands them out likewise. Points are not academic, although academinc achievement is ONE of the things they can be handed out for, and they do get grades for their classroom performance. Pass or fail is not based on House points. The trophy/plaque that Riddle was awarded, and the ones that Harry and Ron later received, were for SPECIAL SERVICES TO THE SCHOOL (sorry for shouting but Yahoo gives us a limited means of formating). Ridding the school of an evil monster is service to the school. Saving the stone was not, and therefore, the plaque could not be awarded. Again, I ask, what did Slytherin achieve that year? They sucked up to Snape. Bullied and cheated there way around the Quidditch pitch. Earned a few general routine points that even Gryffindor earned. Until they got caught getting rid of baby dragon Norbert, Gryffindor was way ahead in House points. Slytherin only won, not by achievement, but by default. So if Triumphs win you point, then the Good-Trio really got short changed, because three 11 year olds defeating the best of what the teachers could offer for defenses, selflessly risking their lives, save the most precious artifact in the entire wizarding world, and once again, defeating Voldemort was eons ahead of anything Slytherin accomplished. -bboy_mn-end this part- > Maria continues: > > I stick with what I've said before - it's demoralizing for the > students and the staff, who abuse their rights of awarding and > subtracting points anyway. > > Maria bboy_mn finishes: It's always demoralizing when you lose. Maybe we should take the politically correct but totally irrational approach and make everybody winners, so that no one will have to be demoralized by losing. Get over it; Slytherin lost, they lost because their achievements were so pale and meaningless compared to the outstanding accomplishments of intellect, skill, courage, and magic by Harry, Ron, and Hermione as to not even rate mentioning. Slytherin should have lost 50 points for being so hopelessly mediocre and mundane in comparison to Harry, Ron, and Hermione. I close by agreeing with you that it is demoralizing when staff abuse the awarding and subtracting of point, but that would be Snape, not Dumbledore. Sorry, but that's still my story and I'm still sticking to it. ..and nothing personal. bboy_mn From falcon21 at flash.net Thu Jan 30 04:37:48 2003 From: falcon21 at flash.net (Falcon) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 22:37:48 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A midget in glasses, References: Message-ID: <001201c2c819$58bfd620$d1b45a42@falcon> No: HPFGUIDX 51072 ----- Original Message ----- From: probonoprobono To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 8:43 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A midget in glasses, --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "errolowl " wrote: > > > >Tanya> PoA Chapter 2 Aunt Marge says: "Pardon me. But I do like to see a healthy-sized boy," she went on, winking at Dudley. "You'll be a proper-sized man, Dudders, like your father..." "Now this one here-" She jerked her head at Harry, who felt his stomache clench. "This ones got a mean, runty look about him. You get that with dogs. I had Colonel Fubster drown one last year. Ratty little thing it was. Weak. Underbred." The definition in my dictionary: Runty -Like a runt; diminutive; mean;adj slang(used especially of persons)of inferior size... In this context 'mean' is the same as 'runty'. Me: Why would she use two words to say the same thing? I took this "mean" as in he looks mean. I mean c'mon, he's living with people that treat him badly, Aunt Marge torments him and abuses him as well, do we really think Harry's going to be all smiles and grins around these people. Not hardly. I see him as scowling and frowning a lot, and with his eyes like they are, some of his looks directed at these people could cause them to slightly fear him. "Mean" in this case could indicate viciousness, or dangerous. I've had a lot of dogs, and the "runts" are usually very mean when they get older because they had to fight to get any food. I see the same thing in Harry. Dudley, Vernon and Marge are all porkers, Harry is skinny so they view him as undersized. Of course they never take into account that starving the poor boy may have had an impact on his weight. Falcon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From skelkins at attbi.com Thu Jan 30 08:22:27 2003 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 08:22:27 -0000 Subject: House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: <20030130051459.66792.qmail@web40504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51073 Ah, the Ever So Contentious PS/SS Point Award! Steve/Bboy (which do you prefer?) wrote a summary of the last-minute points awarded to Gryffindor at the end of PS/SS, and then demanded: > And people think Dumbledore was being overly generous? Er, no. The problem that many people have cited in the past, at any rate, with the infamous "Dissing the Slyths" scene is not their feeling that the point award was unduly generous. Rather, the objection is usually that the Trio and Neville earned those points long in advance of the Leaving Feast. This meant that Dumbledore had ample time to award them *before* the very last minute. Instead, however, by allowing Slytherin colors to be displayed in the hall, he chose to convey the impression that the contest was already closed and that House Slytherin was in possession of the Cup, before pulling what I must say has always come across to me as a rather childish and unwarranted "nanny-nanny-boo-boo" on a group of students whose House already has a long-standing enmity to Dumbledore's own, and who therefore already likely had strong reason to suspect their Headmaster of bias against them. Those who object to 'Dissing the Slyths' feel that even aside from all questions of fairness or maturity, this was also rather a serious tactical error on Dumbledore's part, as it seems so very likely to encourage Slytherin students to turn against Dumbledore and all he represents, which in turn means *towards* Dark Magic and Voldemort. This has, however, been a somewhat contentious issue in the past. :-> Maria wrote: > But I am not sure it's wise to compare academic success to > the displays of courage, bravery, etc (you list 'em in full). > Tom Riddle got a trophy (or whatever that was, my memory has > just stopped functioning) for exposing the Heir of Slytherin, > so why not do the same for HHR&N? But instead, Dumbledore > just jumbles it all together with rewards for good behavior > and good grades. Yes, but the point system is just completely anyway, isn't it? The points are allocated for athletic prowess (winning the Quidditch Cup is also worth House Points), for academic prowess, for comportment issues, and sometimes just for annoying Snape . Furthermore, even the *Prefects* are allowed to mess around with the house points: in CoS, fifteen-year-old Percy is taking points off from Gryffindor and threatening to penalize Draco, Crabbe and Goyle with them. So no, they're not fair in the slightest. The entire system is completely arbitrary, which is one of the reasons that I always find it so very amusing that the students seem to be taking that silly House Cup so very seriously. To Harry's credit, he rejects its importance altogether at the end of PS/SS. A nice moment, that. And then he's rewarded by winning it anyway. Something that not only the Trio and Neville, but also we the readers, do indeed seem to be expected to read as a terribly exciting victory. But I digress. When it comes to the point system *itself,* I don't know to what extent I feel we can really lay that one at Dumbledore's feet (although I confess that I'm often tempted to do it as well). I tend to put it in the same mental category as the House system itself: something that Dumbledore probably couldn't get rid of even if he wanted to. I doubt that even Dumbledore could get away with mucking about *too* much with wizarding Britain's hoary, venerable, and amazingly self-destructive old traditions. Elkins who believes that it is the author's *choices,* not her intentions, that make her works what they are From thalia at aokp.org Thu Jan 30 05:23:30 2003 From: thalia at aokp.org (chanteuse thalia chaunacy) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 21:23:30 -0800 Subject: quotes that entertain Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51074 "Do you mean ter tell me," [Hagrid] growled at the Dursleys, "that this boy -- this boy! -- knows nothin' abou' -- about ANYTHYING?" Harry thought this was going a bit far. He had been to school, after all, and his marks weren't bad. [my first 'aww, the hero makes mistakes too!' moment] *** "I never know," Harry called to Hagrid over the noise of the cart, "what's the difference between a stalagmite and a stalactite?" "Stalagmite's got an 'm' in it," said Hagrid. "An' don' ask me questions just now, I think I'm gonna be sick." *** "The gold ones are Galleons," [Hagrid] explained. "Seventeen silver Sickles to a Galleon and twenty-nine Knuts to a Sickle, it's easy enough." [a foot is how many inches?! der!] *** ...'Curses and Countercurses (Bewitch Your Friends and Befuddle Your Enemies with the Latest-Revenges: Hair Loss, Jelly-Legs, Tongue-Tying and Much, Much More)' by Vindictus Viridian. [JKR's oh-so-subtle naming] *** ... [Olivander's] tape measure, which was measuring between his nostrils ... [often the humor is so sly ... or perhaps just put in to make sure you're awake ...] *** And that's just from what I've read today. :) I haven't gotten to find my very favourite one; I'm fearing that it's in book three and it'll be May before I get around to posting it. ;) Thalia 'waves furtively to the main list before dashing back to OT- Chatter' Chaunacy From ArtsyLynda at aol.com Thu Jan 30 05:58:13 2003 From: ArtsyLynda at aol.com (ArtsyLynda at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 00:58:13 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] question? Message-ID: <44.2cfe4c8c.2b6a18f5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51075 I don't have the book right here and have forgotten why Sirius supposedly attacked Ron in his bed? I've simply got to get my own set of books -- I've been wearing out the library's copies! Thanks for the help. Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From adam at sri.lanka.net Thu Jan 30 06:44:06 2003 From: adam at sri.lanka.net (Adam Green) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 12:44:06 +0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] House points and Dumbledore References: <20030130051459.66792.qmail@web40504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3E38C9B6.7D392B07@sri.lanka.net> No: HPFGUIDX 51076 Maria Kirilenko wrote: > When I first started reading PS, I assumed that the whole thing was > academic. Instead of grades, they receive House points. > > But I am not sure it's wise to compare academic success to the > displays of courage, bravery, etc (you list 'em in full). Tom Riddle > got a trophy (or whatever that was, my memory has just stopped > functioning) for exposing the Heir of Slytherin, so why not do the > same for HHR&N? But instead, Dumbledore just jumbles it all together > with rewards for good behavior and good grades. Now me: Firstly I don't believe the house point system is purely academic. All my schools had a house point system, they were rarely awarded for 'academic success', the way I read your post is that instead of receiving grades, they get house points. If this is the case, why bother sit exams at the end of the year... ? I believe, like in my childhood, that the points are awarded for 'good behavior', putting lots of effort into homework, helping to clear up after art class (or the WW equivalent) or working exceptionally hard in class instead of just 'coasting along'. Not to mention sporting achievement... In general 'going the extra mile' ... anyway, this is beside the point. Yes it is a school. A boarding school at that where a lot more care must be taken to appreciate the students as people, not just students in class. I can't express this next bit well but,... Hogwarts is split into houses each of which, as we all know, have different personal traits. From the very moment the children join the school, this is examined and evaluated. As we see through HHR's eyes the interaction with the separate houses forms a major part of school life. It stands to reason that as the students settle into their new house and make friends with those people who are all of a similar trait. The interaction of the houses is just like interaction with different *types* of people, and as I said, forms part of everyday life. So you see Hogwarts is much more about passing exams and equally about learning "who you are" and where you stand with other types of people.... but this is also beside the point. Now I'd like to move onto the main reason for me coming out of Lurkdom. Maria said: " And whatever HHR's accomplishments in the obstacle course are (and I totally agree with you on those), awarding them just enough points for them to win the Cup is sending a bad message to other students - like, 'whatever work you do and no matter how much you obey the rules, it won't matter.' " Now me again: Yes *_/exactly/_*.... (to finish the quote )" ......what matters is the decisions you make and fighting the good fight " The house cup is a big deal in the school and the results are awaited with baited breath... There is so much tension in that room. So whilst everyone in the whole school pays particular attention to that one single particular event and not forgetting it is also the accumulation of the Quiditch season, VERY much similar to the FA cup, or superbowl for our US cousins. What better way to illustrate the importance of being "of high moral fiber" than awarding this prestigious award on the back of some students very brave actions? Maybe in the RW it isn't "wise to compare academic success to the displays of courage, bravery, etc" But house points aren't just about academia, the school isn't just about academia the next few years in the WW for these children aren't just about academia. (like perhaps they have been before LV started to gain strength.) What is important is they all Fight the Good Fight, just as DD's speech at the end of GoF. So maybe they are *learning* the most inpotant lesson of all? I persoanlly think it was a wondefull gesture to award the trio '*just enough* points to draw equal. The fact that the points awarded to Neville made the difference made my heart warm and realise what a wonderfull man DD is. Good for Neville! and I believe he fully deserves it and the rest of the school should give him more credit... like winning the cup for his house. That's me done... BUT.... I'd like to thank the two other members for entertaining me over the past months with their posts, most of which I agree with. I hope whilst I've attacked Maria on pretty much everything she said here, she realises it's nothing personal and would like to thank her for drawing me out of Lurkdom. Adam G who... - Loves Dumbledore an awful lot and won't have a bad word said about him! - Is very worried that the trio may split up due to Ron lagging behind - Hopes and expects that Ron will find his place in the trio and family with some undiscovered talent.. a seer maybe? - Knows he isn't a literary genius or very good with his words. - Hopes it makes sense. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From marie_mouse at hotmail.com Thu Jan 30 08:00:19 2003 From: marie_mouse at hotmail.com (Marie Jadewalker ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 08:00:19 -0000 Subject: Mundungus Fletcher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51077 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erisedstraeh2002 " wrote: > Tzvi of Brooklyn wrote: > > > We all know that Dumblydore sends Sirius to go round up the gang > > which consists of Mundungus Fletcher, Arabella Figg, and Lupin. > > I haven't read CoS in a while and I ran by his name. He had been > > raided by the Misuse of Muggle Artifacts department of the MoM. > > Has this been discussed before. What do you think it means? > > Phyllis wrote: > > LOON here: In CoS, Arthur Weasley does not say that Mundungus was > raided by the MoM, he says "And old Mundungus Fletcher tried to put > a hex on me when I had my back turned" (Ch. 3). I interpreted this > as meaning that Mundungus was working with Arthur during the raids, > but that Mundungus is a bit loony and played a prank on Arthur > during the raid. I like that idea. :) If that is the case, that reference is easier to mesh with Mundungus being one of the "old crowd" than if he, himself were being raided. (Of course, CoS also tells us that Arthur would get into pleanty of trouble if the MoM raided *his* workshop, so who knows...) But the idea of Mundungus as a practical joker like the twins amuses me. > We have further evidence of Mundungus' loony-ness when he > submits a claim in GoF for QWC damage to his "twelve-bedroomed tent > with en-suite jacuzzi" when he really was "sleeping under a cloak > propped on sticks" (Ch. 10). Maybe it's just me, but I always thought that line was meant to poke fun at Percy. We know the Weasleys and their friends stayed in what looked like two pup tents but internally were fully-furnished flats. Is there any reason Mundungus's "twelve-room tent" couldn't have looked like a cloak propped up on sticks from the outside? I laughed when I read this because I thought it was Percy being pompus and thinking he'd caught someone when he hadn't. But then, maybe I read too much into it. ~Marie From snorth at ucla.edu Thu Jan 30 08:32:16 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 00:32:16 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] question? References: <44.2cfe4c8c.2b6a18f5@aol.com> Message-ID: <001001c2c83a$1aa737e0$d3447442@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 51078 Lynda: > I don't have the book right here and have forgotten why Sirius supposedly > attacked Ron in his bed? I've simply got to get my own set of books -- I've > been wearing out the library's copies! Thanks for the help. Me: We can really only conjecture that he was looking for Scabbers, AKA Peter Pettigrew (like I needed to clarify on this list, ;P). However, I will find it interesting to see how people can overanalyze this scene. *ducks* -Scott From pen at pensnest.co.uk Thu Jan 30 09:20:38 2003 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 09:20:38 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A midget in glasses, In-Reply-To: <000b01c2c7d0$fc273c70$1ab45a42@falcon> Message-ID: <1885E1CC-3434-11D7-A297-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 51079 On Wednesday, Jan 29, 2003, at 19:59 Europe/London, Falcon wrote: > Me: Mathematical or not, when "mean" is used in conjunction with > "stature" it is describing a person's average height. The context is > that she is talking about his physical description. "Mean" when used > to describe someone refers to their average size. It don't matter how > much you disagree with it, that's the way it is. Interesting to see this interpretation of 'mean stature' as 'average height' when applied in this instance. Obviously, 'mean stature' can denote 'average height' when applied to a group. But an individual (1) cannot *have* an 'average height', unless (a) he is a most unusual individual who is 5'2" on Mondays but 6' tall on Friday night, in which case his 'mean stature' might be, oh, 5'7" or so, or (b) the speaker is referring to his height since he was, say, three years old. Neither of these is, I submit, very likely. 'Mean' has many, er, meanings. In a literary sense, it means 'small'. Pen (1) An individual can be *of* average height, but that is not the same thing. From srsiriusblack at aol.com Thu Jan 30 09:48:28 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 04:48:28 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] House points and Dumbledore Message-ID: <1ee.96b657.2b6a4eec@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51080 In a message dated 29/01/2003 23:36:17 Eastern Standard Time, bboy_mn at yahoo.com writes: > Sorry, but you will never convince me that evil Dumbledore snatch an > undeserved victory from the hands of the poor hard working deserving > Slytherins and gave it to Gryffindor. They deserves three times the > point that he awarded them, but he chose to be very modest about it. > > That is my story and I am sticking to it. > bboy_mon always has a great argument. I truly agree that Dumbledore restrained himself.... he says in PS that the 'secret of what happened between Harry and Quirrel is known across the school' - paraphrased, but it is my opinion that no matter what Harry and Co. endure through the books the actual truth is NOT known by the school- i.e. that LOrd Voldie is involved. Thus, he has to give points to Harry and Co. without showing direst favouritism... afterall, Harry *is* famous and giving him point for what others are unaware *would* show favouritism.... THUS, DD is giving Gryffindor just enough points to win House Cup makes sense... NO one understands what Harry truly endured-- not to mention the sacrifices or Ron and Hermione( my new rescue pup's name sake ) so, in all it makes sense.. The victory of the HOUSE after HArry and Co. lose so many points with the Norbert escapade is champion in itself....and DD knows this, IMHO This all points back to the virtues of Griffyndor House.... Bravery, etc... HHR know that the points are being given on what they did in the battle with Quirrel, imho, but I think they also know that the school is unaware of what actual occurred and the victory is in the HOUSE and not themselves. "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From belleps at october.com Thu Jan 30 09:47:16 2003 From: belleps at october.com (Beth) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 03:47:16 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Flesh of Servant, Hand of Silver In-Reply-To: <1043525055.2574.62992.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030130033347.00a051d0@pop.cox-internet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51081 Elkins: >> Now, I'm not altogether sure what that stuff is. But I don't think > that it's exactly *impersonal* stuff, if you know what I mean. It > seems to me that whenever we see the silvery stuff show up, it's > always in relation to something rather spiritual, something deeply > intrinsic to the wizard himself.<< Melody: >Oh I see what you are getting at. Voldemort has put himself, via Elkins' trademarked Special Silvery Wizarding Soul Stuff, into Peter too. Oh interesting twist there. So Peter is more evil. He has the touches of Voldemort's, like Voldemort has of Harry's. Oh this is a nice little trio of people we have here. Seems Harry turned out to be the only one not contaminated.< bel: (I apologize if this has been answered between Saturday and now -- I got a few days behind, still haven't caught up, and thought I'd better respond to this while my brain was still retaining my thoughts. ) Hmm. We almost have a complete double circle here, don't we? Harry saved Peter's life, Peter gave his hand to Voldemort, Voldemort gave powers to Harry. Reversed, Harry gave blood to Voldemort, Voldemort gave "spirit stuff" to Peter, Peter gives ?? to Harry. Peter owes Harry a life-debt. If he repays it, and closes that second circle.... No proof that I can think of offhand, but that seems like a pretty powerful magic circuit to me. Possibly even related to ancient magic? Ancient magic, which is somehow (IIRC) related to Lily's protection of Harry, Harry's protection while at the Dursley's, and the natural defenses of dragons. Could it be that when that circle is closed, neither Voldemort nor Harry will be able to harm each other? And, reaching out even farther on this limb, with the heirs of Slytherin and Gryffindor unable to destroy each other, therefore guaranteeing that at least two of the founding lines continue, does that prevent some catastrophe predicted by Trelawney (at least the conquest of the WW by Voldemort)? How did I get so far up in this theory tree when I'm afraid of heights? bel From belleps at october.com Thu Jan 30 09:55:41 2003 From: belleps at october.com (Beth) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 03:55:41 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Missing scenes In-Reply-To: <1043508974.2986.2147.m6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030130034847.00a04580@pop.cox-internet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51082 Marina wrote: >This got me thinking about a number of other "missing scenes" in the books that I would've loved to see. I don't mean things that might theoretically have happened, but things that canon definitely tells us have happpened, but we never see them or even get a second-hand account of them < Hagrid in the pub. Buying Fluffy. Winning the dragon egg. Saying, "I shouldn't have said that," over and over into his mulled mead. Draco at home with his parents. Pick a time, any time. bel From belleps at october.com Thu Jan 30 10:24:56 2003 From: belleps at october.com (Beth) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 04:24:56 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco's grades WAS What will come in Book 5ish In-Reply-To: <1043374801.2478.50294.m7@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030130035720.009ff720@pop.cox-internet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51083 Cathy said: >I don't think Draco is any genius in his classes. from CoS: "I hope my son will amount to more than a thief or a plunderer, Borgin," said Mr. Malfoy coldly, and Mr. Borgin said quickly, "no offense, sir, no offense meant -" "Though if his grades don't pick up," said Mr. Malfoy, more coldly still, "that may indeed be all he is fit for - " This gives me the impression of someone who is not anywhere near the top of his class. Draco goes on to blame the teachers for having favorites like Hermione. I think that when Mr. Malfoy went on to comment "I would have thought you'd be ashamed that a girl of no wizard family beat you in every exam" it was just to embarass and shame Draco further.< bel: It doesn't give me the impression that Draco is any lower than second at all. IIRC, they only ever mention Hermione as having better grades. Granted, that may be because having a "mudblood" beat him stings more than the others that do, but I don't think so. I do agree that it's done to embarrass and shame Draco -- hopefully into getting better grades. It's a disgrace to the name of Malfoy that he isn't first in his class, and doubly a disgrace that a "mudblood" is the one beating him every time. (I do think he may be third or fourth in one or two classes, with Hermione the only one better in EVERY class, but I still think his grades are very much at the top.) I'm guessing (please do correct me if I'm wrong) that your impression of Draco's placement in class is because his father's comment (in front of a lowly shopkeeper, no less) is particularly nasty and degrading, and being second in class probably wouldn't merit that level of treatment. I have to disagree. While my father certainly wasn't nasty or degrading about it , he definitely let me know that getting the second-best grades in class were not acceptable. I remember bringing home a report card in high school with 5 As and 1 B. Dad looked at it grimly for a few seconds, then turned to me and said, "Why a B?" If my dad, who I loved dearly, could be that way about grades, I can certainly believe that Lucius Malfoy could be that way, with added malice and coldness. Draco's good. He's just not the best. It shows in his grades, his Quidditch, his friends, his possessions (the Firebolt comes to mind), and the placement of Slytherin for the Quidditch Cup and the House Cup. His friendship was even considered to be inferior to that of Ron (by Harry in PS/SS). Draco is always second-best, and that's not good enough for a Malfoy. He's not a beloved son (except possibly by his mother, though I have my suspicions there, too); he's the HEIR. A tradition, a commodity, an investment. He knows exactly what it means to be a Malfoy, and he knows that he's failing at it. Draco is a time bomb. He'll either overcompensate and kill someone, or come into his own and his family be damned. In either case, I think we'll lose him in Book 6, or fairly early in Book 7. (Which is heartbreaking, really. I think if he had grown up anywhere but under Lucius' thumb, he might have been decent. I've grown rather fond of the D/Hr and D/G ideas, and even of D/H. I don't ever see Rowling going that route, mind you, but I wouldn't see it as completely impossible for the characters post-Hogwarts if they both lived. I can say that now, mind you, because I don't believe that the characters are sexual enough in Book 4 to have their preferences solidly established. After Book 5, I may not be able to see it as a possibility anymore. ) OK, off my Draco soapbox. How did I get on this thing at this time of the morning, anyway? Geez... bel From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Jan 30 10:41:55 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 10:41:55 -0000 Subject: Crouch's memory (was: Re: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51084 Elkins wrote: [major snip] > Of course, Crouch would have been unusually stressed and distracted > at the time that Percy started working for him. Percy would have > started working for him at just about the same time that he would > have started fretting about Bertha Jorkins' disappearance. I'm sure > that he was also feeling stressed about his plan to take his son to > the upcoming QWC. And of course, he would have been very busy > plannning the Tournament, as well. Given all of that, I guess that > maybe it's a little bit less surprising that his new employee's name > somehow never properly registered with him, although it still does > snap my suspenders of disbelief just a tiny bit. > > It snaps my suspenders mainly, I think, because I just find it so > hard to believe that even under somewhat adverse circumstances, > Crouch wouldn't have been able to muster better interpersonal skills > than those we see him display in canon. He *was* a successful > politician, after all, and while I myself share Meira's difficulty > with remembering people's names, successful politicians don't. > Successful politicians *learn* the trick of getting people's names > right -- and then of remembering them. They also know that they're > supposed to sip the tea. ;-) > >-- Elkins I think you are overlooking something, Elkins. While all your points are valid, you are basing them in an asumption: that Crouch heard the name "Percy Weasley" at least once. I can easily imagine the situation where Percy is in his first day of the job, just another employee willing to prove himself, and his boss (Mr. Crouch himself) comes to see him (this being his first day and all). Crouch, somewhat distracted and going through the motions of what is, after all, something pretty common, politely asks "Mr. Weatherby, is it?" or something to that effect, and Percy, tongue tied and extremelly nervous, can only nod with an awed look in his face. Thus, Crouch gets the impression that that red-haired guy is called Weatherby. He might even ask if he's related to the Weasleys, to which Percy would just nod again, but simply wouldn't be able to utter a word. And, of course, Percy wouldn't ever *dare* correct Mr. Crouch over some trivial matter such as his name (and notice he never does, in the books). So Crouch is not an incompetent, or has failing memory. He simply got the name wrong the first time around (which is easy enough), and Percy simply never told him otherwise. Now, the real interesting question is: how does an absolute newbie, that has been in the ministry for less than a year, manage to climb far enough to be Crouch's personal assistant and substitute when he is unavailable (for example, as Tournament judge)? Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Jan 30 11:17:20 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 11:17:20 -0000 Subject: A theory of Lupin's transformation In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030129183008.00da4a40@mail.societyhappens.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51085 Sushi wrote: > The full moon does not rise at sunset. It rises at noon, > and sets at midnight, meaning that Lupin would have been susceptible > at any point between those two times. The only logical explanation > I've got is that the dose is effective for somewhere between 24 and > 36 hours (since Snape brought it in during the afternoon on the > Hogsmeade day), and it just happened to wear off as they were leaving > the Shack. Severus brought it within the conscripted time limit, but > there was no werewolf to take it. > > Sushi I think I'm going to dust my theory on the workings of the potion once more - I'm pretty sure it hasn't been seen in the list for a couple of months. First, however, allow me to make a statement: I am not a Lupin apologist - I love Lupin, he's my fav character in the books (yes, I know, easy to guess, me being a werewolf myself, but bear with me), but I don't really think there is nothing to induce me to apologise for him. He made a mistake, paid the price, moved on. No amount of discussion will change the past, and it wasn't that big a mistake, anyway. Besides, I am blessed (or cursed) with a scientific mind, not a philosophical, and I am more interested in the potion itself. Canon states that he must take it during the week before full moon. I assume that he has to take certain amount of dosis, at more or less regular intervals (too close toghether, and the potion can be fatal -many medicines are little more than carefully measured dosis of poison- too far apart and he won't have time to take enough). So, if he needs four goblets, and each goblet must be at least a day apart, he can take them the first, third, fourth and sixth day before the full moon, or any other possible combination - thus explaining the comment of "I'll probably take more tomorrow" (as oposed to the next day, for example). Next, the workings of the potion itself: canon states that the potion allows Lupin to keep his mind while transformed, which makes him less dangerous, but I also added a little extra bit: the potion also retards the transformation itself from happening (and shortens its duration, thus transforming back earlier). Where did I get that from? Well, the potion is suposed to be a cure for lycanthropism that is still being developed, so it makes sense that they are working on both levels: to make him safe, and to cure him altoghether (but, since it *is* being developed, it doesn't really do everything yet). Now, for the next bit, I need to state my theory on how lycanthropism really works in Potterverse. I believe that the transformation happens when the air reaches a certain threshold of accumulated magical energy. This magical energy builds up during full moon (lets say, for the sake of argument, that the magical energy is reflected from the moon). Of course, when the moon is in plain sight, the amount of energy is so big that it triggers the change immediately, but whenever it is overcast or out of sight, it takes longer for the energy to build up. And that is the core of my theory: the potion enhances the lycanthrope's resistance to the energy. In a sense, it takes more energy to change him into the wolf form. It is not perfect, and even with full potion dosis in his body he *will* change during the full moon phase, but it does allow him to resist for longer - that is, unless full moon hits him directly. Where does that leave us? In the SS (Shack Scene), Lupin was in his office, protected by four good walls from the moon, and he had enough potion to last a while, maybe even the night (with a last dose, that is). With what he already had he could resist for several hours, probably. But then he sees Pettigrew in the map, as well as Sirius. His wits are scrambled, but a quick check out of a handy window informs him that the sky is overcast, and thus that he has the time. Now, Fast forward to the end of the SS. When they leave, the sky is still overcast, and sure enough the potion prevents Lupin from changing. Unfortunately, the clouds are thinning and suddenly, the expected happens: the clouds part and the moonlight hits the group directly. The potion is totally overmatched, and Lupin transforms. And, since he hadn't taken the last dosis, his mind is still mostly that of the wolf. What would've happened if he *had* taken the last dosis? I think he would've still transformed, but might've kept his mind. But we don't really know. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, who is in the middle of a blizzard right now and feels great From gandharvika at hotmail.com Thu Jan 30 11:43:04 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 11:43:04 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Master Barty Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51086 Master Barty (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune _Sexy Sadie_ by the Beatles) Dedicated to Elkins, for obvious reasons Midi: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle15.html Winky: Master Barty, what is you doing? You is getting us in trouble You is getting us in trouble Master Barty, ohhh what is you doing? Master Barty, please say no more You isn't ought to tell no one You isn't ought to tell no one Master Barty, ohhh please say no more That Quidditch game Winky is convincing to your father Ought to allow Master Barty to go Master Barty, Winky did not realize Master Barty, you then broke free Winky is almost letting you escape Winky is almost letting you escape Master Barty, ohhh you then broke free Master Barty, you is a bad boy You is killed your own father You is killed your own father Master Barty, ohhh you is a bad boy Master Crouch was keeping you at home under Imperius But Winky keeps her Master's secrets Master Barty, you is making everything worse You is getting us in trouble, Master Barty You is killed your own father -Gail B...man, it's not easy writing a filk in a House-Elf accent! _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From ProfSnapeFan at aol.com Thu Jan 30 11:12:36 2003 From: ProfSnapeFan at aol.com (ProfSnapeFan at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 06:12:36 EST Subject: Characters You Hate Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51087 In a message dated 1/29/2003 8:52:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, SnapesSlytherin at aol.com writes: > Okay, my new question of the day (I do this at school every day): Everyone > has strong feelings about certain characters *coughSnapecough*; are there > any > characters that you hate for no reason? You just read about them and think > "Geez...I really don't like them!" but aren't really sure why? Hate may be a little strong. But as for Geez I really don't like them even though I'm not really sure why. There is one that immediately comes to mind. Hagrid. He's irritated me from day 1. *ducking* :-) Joy From G.Burkhard at gmx.de Thu Jan 30 11:13:10 2003 From: G.Burkhard at gmx.de (Bugfix) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 12:13:10 +0100 Subject: House points and Dumbledore References: <20030130051459.66792.qmail@web40504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51088 * "Steve " wrote: > It's always demoralizing when you lose. Maybe we should take the > politically correct but totally irrational approach and make everybody > winners, so that no one will have to be demoralized by losing. Get > over it; Slytherin lost, they lost because their achievements were so > pale and meaningless compared to the outstanding accomplishments of > intellect, skill, courage, and magic by Harry, Ron, and Hermione as to > not even rate mentioning. Slytherin should have lost 50 points for > being so hopelessly mediocre and mundane in comparison to Harry, Ron, > and Hermione. Let's not forget that Slytherin won the House Cup six years in a row before (I can't give the exact quote and page number as I currently only have a German copy of PS available). That would mean that there are Slytherin students who always won the cup, from their first year to their seventh. Yes, they must work hard to win the House Cup and it isn't easy to achive. But as much as one must learn to work hard to win he must learn to work hard and then to *lose* and how to live with the defeat. This is an important lesson which the seventh year Slytherins apparently got only on their last day in school. - bugfix -- 142 days until OotP is released [No text part of this message have been deleted] From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Jan 30 12:18:22 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 12:18:22 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Dumbledore's feelings about Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51089 The Grey Wolf looked at Melody for a few moments, her mind pondering Melody's arguments. Melody looked into his eyes and could almost hear the "click" inside his head when he reached a conclusion "Ok, little bunny, let's see how well you do on your own" he addressed Coney, "I want you to catch a badger now, let's see how well you do. Remember that he won't suspect you, but don't expect it to allow you to get close anyway, so you'll still have to surprise it" The bunny twitched her little nose and hopped into the forest, her eyes intent. Grey Wolf turned to Melody and said "So, first things first, you told me that > "I can see Dumbledore > being cautious and deeply careful with his steps. I can see > Dumbledore wanting to create Hogwarts a safe haven from Voldemort, > but Grey, that safe haven is created because Voldemort fears > Dumbledore. If Dumbledore cannot, and will not kill him, then why > would Voldemort fear anything that Dumbledore can do to him? In > Voldemort's eyes, there is more to fear here then. You said > yourself, Dumbledore will not use Avada Kedavra out of nobility, so > then what is it that Voldie fears exactly? Being tricked into being > caught and kept at Azkaban? > > "You said in a duel, Voldemort would win because he would use the > unblockable AK on Dumbledore. I think that is a fair and reasonable > assumption. Voldemort, given the chance, would kill Dumbledore. So > then, what is stopping him? Why does he not get up, go there, and do > it? It is not out of respect, or even fair play obviously. Seems, > if I was a dark wizard and I would use spells and potions that no one > else can except this one guy who will not, then I would rule the > world. And yet, even though Voldemort has all this power, he is > scared because someone else could too? That makes no sense Grey. My answer is easy enough. Voldemort not only fears Dumbledore (that much is obvious), he's also absolutely incable of understanding him. We know Voldemort doesn't understand love. He doesn't understand morality, either ("There is no good or evil, just power and those too weak to grasp it"). Now, Dumbledore is *not* too weak to grasp power - Voldemort knows that too well. Dumbledore commands powers far greater than Voldemort's, and Voldemorts knows that. However, I don't think Voldemort can grasp the concept of morality, anymore than he can understand love. He must think that, faced with utter destruction, Dumbledore would stop at nothing - especially if that would kill the famous Voldemort. You see, there are two great forces working in tandem here. In one hand, Voldemort believes himself to be the most dangerous wizard of all time, and he believes that any wizard that was given the chance to destroy him would do so without a thought (candor compels me to admit that most wizards would). On the other hand, he cannot even begin to understand the power morality has over a (moral) man's actions. I don't think Voldemort can understand that Dumbledore *wouldn't* use an AK, even if it using it would destroy Voldemort. Thus, Voldemort fears Dumbledore because he compares him to his own self, and if the roles were reversed (if he was the most powerful one), he wouldn't even think about it, he would destroy Dumbledore as soon as he had the chance." Melody seemed itching to make a point, but Grey Wolf raised his paw "Not yet, Mel, let me finish my counter arguments and *then* you can give me your own views. Besides, it will give you time to think over your arguments. I would accept nothing less than iron-cast arguments from a fellow MDDT. What was your other point, by the way?" "I said: > "Remember the boggarts?" > "Remember that Harry did not fear Voldemort the most?" > "Are you telling me the only character in the books that does not > fear Voldemort is Harry?" > "See - the way I see it. There are precious few > people in the series to date that will actually say Voldie's name > without prompting or reserve. Dumbledore, Harry, Sirius, and Lupin. > Interesting line of people there really. Even Snape has not said it. > So, what is the line that draws those four together? They do not > fear Voldie. That is what I always assumed at least. Is it more, > they do not fear the name?", said Melody. "Ah, yes, now I remember" answered Grey Wolf, "But I'm afraid (pun unintended, I asure you) that you've answered yourself. Harry does fear Voldemort - he's had nightmares about him most of his life, even before he knew about him, and facing Voldemort, albeit common in his everyday life, is not his cup of tea. As you said yourself, Harry does not fear Voldemort *the most*. Harry fears more fear itself, which doesn't discard Voldmort as a good runner-up. You see, fear is not a bad thing, Melody - and I think this is clouding your judgement, if you don't mind me saying so. Fear keeps us alive, and pumps our bodies full of energy when you most need it. Fear makes you cautious and preternaturally alert. Fear, in a nutshell, is the most perfect survival trait ever devised. I should know, having participated in the hunt many times" Grey Wolf grinned". Just like our little Coney can feel me when I am around, Harry's fear of Voldemort is the one thing that gave him enough strenght to survive the GG with a badly hurt leg and a couple of Imperious and Cruciatus thrown in for good measure. The important point about fear is to be able to accept it, face it and come out victorious *on the other side*. Harry, Dumbledore, Lupin and Sirius know Voldemort for what he is, an evil wizard that, given half a chance, won't stop at nothing to destroy them utterly. They've faced that fear, and learned to grow from it, but that doesn't mean they don't fear him at all. As I said, I believe that Dumbledore has a very healthy fear of Voldemort that keeps him on his toes - although Dumbledore's fear is not for himself, but for the entire WW, and what would happen to it if he wasn't around to stop Voldemort from total freedom for destruction." At this point, Coney came back to the clearing pulling the dead bodies of two badgers, both bigger than she was. Grey Wolf stood up to help her and compliment her in her catch. Afterwards, he turned to Melody and said "That's my answer, mel. I certainly hope it helps, and I look forward to an answer, yours or from anyone else" ----------- Grey Wolf From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Jan 30 12:20:50 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 07:20:50 EST Subject: A theory of Lupin's transformation Message-ID: <185.160ba38f.2b6a72a2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51090 Sushi: > I have to disagree here. Taking astronomy and phases of the moon >into consideration, either Remus or Severus screwed up big time. > > The full moon does not rise at sunset. It rises at noon, and sets >at midnight, meaning that Lupin would have been susceptible at any point >between those two times. I'm sorry, I don't follow this. The phase of the moon is independent of its rising and setting times, which is dependent on the location of the observer and the time of year. For instance, this month the moon became full at 10.49 GMT on the 18th. In Edinburgh it rose at 15.55 GMT and set at 09.11 GMT. In London, it rose at 16.11 GMT and set at 08.28 GMT, whereas in Christchurch (NZ) it didn't rise until about 9 pm local time. ~Eloise LOONily Looking up Lunar charts From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Jan 30 12:22:27 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 07:22:27 EST Subject: Authorial Intent (was You're reading the wrong book) Message-ID: <16d.1867fbd3.2b6a7303@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51091 Pickle Jimmy: > JK is writing a book in which we are *meant* to - > > -Hate Malfoy and Love Harry > -Cheer for Gryffindor and Boo Slytherin > -Love Lupin, hate Snape, think Trelawney is an old crackpot and > cringe at Hermione's Lockhart crush > -See a struggle of good over evil in which good will eventually > triumph > -And understand that it is our choices above anything else that makes > us who we are. > > So, if you Love Snape and think he was mis-treated, if you cheer when > Slytherin win, if Malfoy the bouncing ferret brought a tear to your > eye (and not from laughing - like mine was), if you're hoping that > Lupin/Black/Dumbledore/McGonagall/etc turn out to be Evil, then *you > are reading the wrong book* Roo: >However, I strongly disagree with your assertion here. While it is >true that JKR is strongly positiong the reader to accept the points >you outlined (and others), that is not to say that other >interpretations are valid. Each individual forms their own >opinions based on a variety of influences- cultural, social and >historical context, personal experience, desire to be different, etc >and if their interpretation doesn't comply with JKR's intention, it >doesn't mean they are reading the *wrong* book, just that they >perceive the book in a different way. To which I would add that JKR is also possibly deliberately misdirecting us. The way in which the house rivalries are played out and the way we seem consciously pushed into supporting Gryffindor and disparaging Slytherin *may* be simply part of a Good vs Evil theme, but if so it is very simplistic and sits very much at odds with the Choices theme. I hope that JKR is actually hoodwinking us into making some nice comfortable assumptions which she will in future overturn. ~Eloise From lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com Thu Jan 30 12:34:35 2003 From: lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com (lindseyharrisst ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 12:34:35 -0000 Subject: House points and Dumbledore (long post , sorry)! In-Reply-To: <000b01c2c81f$875c4df0$d3447442@xyrael> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51092 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Scott Northrup" wrote: > > Maria: > > But all this makes me wonder what exactly House points are awarded for. We > know they're taken away for breaking rules (or just bothering Snape ). > > > > When I first started reading PS, I assumed that the whole thing was > academic. Instead of grades, they receive House points. > > > > But I am not sure it's wise to compare academic success to the displays of > courage, bravery, etc (you list 'em in full). Me: I'm a Brit and know a little about the private school house system. At Hogwarts, as at most, the children are boarding away from home and the influence of their family on their behaviour. At school there are only a limited number of teachers and so it is less easy for them to physically check up on each pupil's behaviour. Therefore the house points system was introduced to create a sense of "family ties", ie loyalty and a desire not to give your house a bad name or embarress those associated with you. This is a far easier method of "control" and nicer for the pupils who are encouraged in healthy competiton not shouted at. They are given, as far as I remember, exclusively for social sorts of achievement (like Neville's), to avoid the idea of socialising children that lies behind house points only being something in which some take part. Points given for a question answered in class are not for being clever, but for being confident or helpful enough to raise your hand or diligent enough to have done the reading. In the case of DD awarding points to Gryffindor, I felt slightly uncomofrtable with it (and I admit this is from a Slythierin sympathiser POV, not because I like them, but because I think the fate of Slytherin is a self-fulfilling prophecy to a great extent due to the social isolation the individual child experiences when they join it and the removal of calming and kind influences like Hufflepuff friends). What I object to is that Harry and Co. were the only people in a position to defeat Voldemort because.... 1 Harry has a special ability to know when he's around (his scar), 2 because they knew Hagrid who unwittingly gave the trio information (Hagrid felt close to Harry because he had delivered him to the Dursley's when he had been small)and 3 because Harry has the magical immunity given to him by his mother's sacrifice. This seems to go against the idea that house points are available to all because everyone has the same potential to be good (diligent, loyal, hard working, honest etc). It seems pointless to avoid awarding house points for purely academic achievements for the sake of inclusivity and then awarding them to Harry and the trio for something only they could possibly do. I'm not saying they deserved no recognition, because they were brave indeed, once they discovered it fell to them to defeat Voldie, but that awarding points and giving them the cup was not "playing by the rules". No wonder the Slytherins felt hard done by and continue to be reluctant to play fair, if they do not get to see it bear fruit and the prize goes to someone else anyway, for being more "dashing, handsome and bold", as it were. I'm sure I've heard this all before.....oh yes, it was in the "why does Snape hate the Marauders" posts was n't it? Do we really think it's worth it to demonstratively reward the good guys if it leads to such powerful resentment as to cause Slytherins to feel death-eating has bigger opportunities for getting oneself noticed? Are Slytheirn petty? Sure. But for all the damage a single new DE creates in the world, DD would do well to have regard to the feelings of "borderline cases" ilke Draco possibly is and I'm sure Severus one was. ANY FEEDBACK HUGLEY APPRECIATED :) Snapesangel XXXX From heidit at netbox.com Thu Jan 30 13:37:22 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 08:37:22 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] You're reading the wrong book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <013401c2c864$b81e6640$2401010a@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 51093 PickleJimmy insisted that > JK is writing a book in which we are *meant* to - > > -Hate Malfoy and Love Harry > -Cheer for Gryffindor and Boo Slytherin > -Love Lupin, hate Snape, think Trelawney is an old crackpot and > cringe at Hermione's Lockhart crush > -See a struggle of good over evil in which good will eventually > triumph > -And understand that it is our choices above anything else that makes > us who we are. > > So, if you Love Snape and think he was mis-treated, if you cheer when > Slytherin win, if Malfoy the bouncing ferret brought a tear to your > eye (and not from laughing - like mine was), if you're hoping that > Lupin/Black/Dumbledore/McGonagall/etc turn out to be Evil, then *you > are reading the wrong book* I'm sorry, PickleJimmy, but when in Book 1 did you realise that you were reading a book in which you were meant to think that Scabbers was a cute pet? Did you like Hermione when we first met her, or did that only happen later? When in Book 2 did you realise that the helpful Tom Riddle was really Voldemort (now, I admit to realising in the Diary Scene that he was Up To Something, but I didn't know what) When in Book 3 did you realise that you were reading a book in which you were meant to know, clearly, that Sirius was a good guy, framed by his former friend - the one everyone thought he'd killed? When in Book 4 did you realise that Moody was a manipulative git - but that every bit of dialogue he said was truthful, from a certain point of view? Good to know that *you* have never been misdirected by anything JKR's put in her books. You're a lot more clever than I am. Oh, and btw - I'm as bothered by Snape's mistreatment of Hermione as I am by Crouch's mistreatment of Draco - I mean, we *know* that Barty's committed at least one murder, so why should we overlook the abusive punishment of a student? heidi From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 14:09:56 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 06:09:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: <20030130051459.66792.qmail@web40504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030130140956.31115.qmail@web40502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51094 --- Maria Kirilenko wrote: Would it have been so hard for him to *both* give > Slytherin the deserved House Cup and honor the kids > for doing something that IMHO cannot and should not > be measured in the same points that academics are? Me: No, I don't think that would be fair at all. First, we don't know that Slytherin didn't recieve house points for Tom Riddle turning in an innocent Hagrid. Do we even know that they had the house points back then? So that's not really a valid argument. And back then Professor Dippet was head master and it was his decision and that's what he wanted to do. Now it's Dumbledore's decision. The thing that bothers me is everyone saying that Slytherin *deserved* the house cup. Did they really? It's been mentioned numerous times that as Snape takes away points from the other houses (especially Gryffindor) he also likes to give Slytherin extra points. I find it totally believable that over that LONG school year he could have give his Slytherins 160 points more than they deserved.That's really only 20 points a month. And seeing how easily he takes away points, I think he'd give points that easily too. Also, if this were only based on academics, why is it fair that Gryffindor lost 150 points for being out of bed? It's really not. I think Dumbledore was right giving them those points. HRH did something that proved their knowledge and ability, as well as their character. They did something for the good of the WW as a whole even when they had been told, by Hagrid and McGonagall, that they shouldn't bother with it. ~Kathryn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From sevothtarte at gmx.net Thu Jan 30 14:38:56 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:38:56 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] You're reading the wrong book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <98PK5ZVPHFMHD7C742EDW1V98JIE.3e393900@tk> No: HPFGUIDX 51095 Pickle Jimmy: >JK is writing a book in which we are *meant* to - > >-Hate Malfoy and Love Harry >-Cheer for Gryffindor and Boo Slytherin >-Love Lupin, hate Snape, think Trelawney is an old crackpot and >cringe at Hermione's Lockhart crush >-See a struggle of good over evil in which good will eventually >triumph >-And understand that it is our choices above anything else that makes >us who we are. > >So, if you Love Snape and think he was mis-treated, if you cheer when >Slytherin win, if Malfoy the bouncing ferret brought a tear to your >eye (and not from laughing - like mine was), if you're hoping that >Lupin/Black/Dumbledore/McGonagall/etc turn out to be Evil, then *you >are reading the wrong book* So we're not supposed to make our own choice about how we think of the characters and the story? I thought our choices are important ... If Rowling wanted us to perceive things in one way only, she would write that way. She could do it, she could depict everything in radical black and white, not allowing the shades of grey when it comes to Snape and Lupin and all the others, even Harry and Dumbledore (they're both not perfect, they both don't always do the right thing). You're telling people to read without using their brains, to accept everything in it's pure literal meaning. This works for fairytales told to four year olds, but I can't believe you seriously expect mature readers to follow that approach. HP is no scientific text, it is fiction. There's never only one interpretation of a work of fiction or poetry, every reader has his very own, and no interpretation is 'better', '`worse' or more 'true' than any other. Torsten From lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com Thu Jan 30 14:43:37 2003 From: lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com (lindseyharrisst ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 14:43:37 -0000 Subject: Characters You Hate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51096 The character I find myself twitching with barely supreseed dislike when I see is....(puts on bullet proof vest and helmet, dons shiled and hides behind ramparts) ...is Dumbeldore. I know, I know, he is a good man and I definately do not support the "Evil Dumbledore theory", but aspects of his personality annoy me, even though I respect him and believe in his ideals and superiority to other wizards like Fudge. Things that tick me off (I don't have my books so this is from memory and I'm paraphrasing) 1. His arbitary awarding of house points at the end of book 1 (see my earlier post for fuller expl.) 2. His failure to explain why he was n't punishing Sirius in a more obvious and meaningful way to Snape in MWPP days, possibly leading/ contributing to his becoming a DE. 3. The way he appears to laugh at other characters expense - even though it is n't malicious it irks me. E.g Snape at the end of book 3 and Harry practically all the time. 4. The things he seeems to do, or let happen that are explained simply in cannon, but leave me thinking "eh?!" like employing Lockhart as DADA teacher. I know there were n't any other applicants, but could n't he have done it himself or given another teachers or teachers extra duties. Maybe he could 've enlisted a ghost to teach the non practical bits...Anyway, just strat seems negligent to me. Snapesangel xxx From stbinch at actionsd.com Thu Jan 30 14:54:18 2003 From: stbinch at actionsd.com (Steve Binch) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 07:54:18 -0700 Subject: What is your all-time favorite line(s) from the book? - Uranus References: <1043902976.2832.18741.m4@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000f01c2c86f$771efdc0$2101a8c0@ACTIONSTEEL.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 51097 On Thu, 30 Jan 2003 01:31:14 -0000 grindieloe wrote: >Thought of one more hilarious quote... >Lavendar: "What planet is this, professor?" >Trelawney: "Let me see... that is Uranus, my dear..." >Ron: "Can I see Uranus too, Lavendar?" >Being a teacher, I can SO see that happening... >hehehe >grindieloe (warning: It may not be quoted exactly! I was guessing!) Me: I thought that was funny, because I think it is something I would have said at that age. In fact, I'm quite sure that I have used the old Uranus joke a time or two. -Steve From deeecha at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 14:58:54 2003 From: deeecha at yahoo.com (deecha) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 06:58:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: friendSHIP (was Re: SHIP: Re: Banter and other SHIP subjects) In-Reply-To: <1043878169.10076.63962.m1@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030130145854.41518.qmail@web14406.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51098 heidi wrote: <> Me: Well he wasn't mean *to* her - he didn't know that she could hear him. I also thought she was crying because she thought that *nobody* at school liked her, not because of Ron himself: "It's no wonder no one can stand her," he said to Harry as they pushed their way into the crowded corridor. "She's a nightmare, honestly." heidi wrote: <> Me: Why would she think it barbaric? She plays chess with Ron several times throughout the books - once two chapters after the "Halloween" chapter: "Chess was the only thing Hermione ever lost at, something Harry and Ron thought was very good for her." I can't find any reference to Hermione thinking that chess is barbaric. I also don't think it was *just* Harry who influenced the friendship among the three of them. That's just how it played out in the end. She probably found that the two of them were the most interesting people in her year and that's why she was always bossing them around and talking to them before they rescued her from the troll. heidi: <> Me: But her friendship with Ginny exists probably because she's her friend's sister. (I'm thinking of PoA and GoF where she's with Ginny at the Leaky Cauldron, and then at the Burrow and the Quidditch World Cup in GoF.) I don't know that they would have been friends without that connection. (I also don't think that Voldemort would have come back, because he never would have been able to get the stone out of the mirror.) I don't care much about SHIPping, but the friendship between these three is the most compelling aspect of the books for me personally. I just can't agree that Harry is solely responsible for their friendship, and that Ron and Hermione had nothing to do with it. deecha __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From stbinch at actionsd.com Thu Jan 30 15:01:06 2003 From: stbinch at actionsd.com (Steve Binch) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 08:01:06 -0700 Subject: Characters You Hate References: <1043902976.2832.18741.m4@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001301c2c870$6a86d9b0$2101a8c0@ACTIONSTEEL.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 51099 ----- Original Message ----- From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Okay, my new question of the day (I do this at school every day): Everyone has strong feelings about certain characters *coughSnapecough*; are there any characters that you hate for no reason? You just read about them and think "Geez...I really don't like them!" but aren't really sure why? ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ I have never liked Dobby. He just really annoys me. I can't stand him! ...just so annoying. -Steve From melclaros at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 15:02:02 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:02:02 -0000 Subject: House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51100 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bugfix wrote: > > Yes, they must work hard to win the House Cup and it isn't easy to > achive. But as much as one must learn to work hard to win he must learn > to work hard and then to *lose* and how to live with the defeat. This > is an important lesson which the seventh year Slytherins apparently got > only on their last day in school. > But they DID win it. Regardless of how, we don't know that. It's safe to assume that there were points awarded to Slyths by professors, staff and prefects who were NOT Snape. The fact is, they walked into the hall having WON THE CUP by THE SCHOOL RULES. Whether they'd won before and it was "someone else's turn" is MOOT. If DD was going to award extra points (as has been said here countless times already) and change the tally he had AMPLE time to do it before the decorations went up. His behaviour was deplorable. It embarrassed Snape (no surprise there, we soon learn that's a favored hobby of his), ticked off the Slytherins and must have been a terrible blow to the Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs as well. Now--tell me what lesson those 7th year Slyths learned on their last day at Hogwarts again? Because I missed it. I can tell you they walked out of there with a very bitter taste in their mouths....new crop of DE's anyone? Melpomene From sevothtarte at gmx.net Thu Jan 30 14:59:53 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:59:53 +0100 Subject: Fat and senile wizards Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51101 I'd like to adress two points: 1. Shouldn't wizards on average be overweight compared to muggles? They don't play any sports which actually requires the work of muscles (and as for the Quidditch players, only the Beaters truly exercize). They have no P.E. classes in school. They also don't do much housework (or any other kind of physically stressing work) themselves, it all requites just a little wand waving (or a houseelf). Some even spare themselves the stairs and just apparate to the kitchen for breakfast ... There might be spells to get rid of fat, but I doubt it, or why didn't anyone tell Bagman about them? 2. Some have said the interpret the repeated mentions of Dumbledore looking old and worn as signs he'll die soon. What if he's not to die but looses some of his mental fitness as well as spell casting ability due to old age? A wizard's body lasts longer than a muggle's, and so does hit mental state, but both must wither in the end. Since sorcery is not based on physical aspects, the ability to perform it might suffer from old age. Why should Voldemort, who's still comparatively young, already have invested that much into his search for immortality? Because one who seeks immortality also seeks eternal youth (no fun being old for eternity), and he wants to gain it before his ability to work magic is diminished in the slightest. Even if Dumbledore goes on to live another decade or two, in time Voldemort will be stronger than him simply because Dumbledore suffers from old age ... What do you think? Torsten From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Thu Jan 30 15:06:22 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:06:22 -0000 Subject: Influence of Saturn (was Re: A midget in glasses,) In-Reply-To: <1885E1CC-3434-11D7-A297-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51102 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Pen Robinson wrote: > > On Wednesday, Jan 29, 2003, at 19:59 Europe/London, Falcon wrote: > > Me: Mathematical or not, when "mean" is used in conjunction with > > "stature" it is describing a person's average height. The context is > > that she is talking about his physical description. "Mean" when used > > to describe someone refers to their average size. It don't matter how > > much you disagree with it, that's the way it is. > > Interesting to see this interpretation of 'mean stature' as 'average > height' when applied in this instance. > > Obviously, 'mean stature' can denote 'average height' when applied to a > group. But an individual (1) cannot *have* an 'average height', unless > > (a) he is a most unusual individual who is 5'2" on Mondays but 6' tall > on Friday night, in which case his 'mean stature' might be, oh, 5'7" or > so, > > or > > (b) the speaker is referring to his height since he was, say, three > years old. > > Neither of these is, I submit, very likely. > > 'Mean' has many, er, meanings. In a literary sense, it means 'small'. > > Pen > > > (1) An individual can be *of* average height, but that is not the same > thing. We are debating two *literary* meanings of mean (as an adjective...) 1) *low in value or amount* eg paid no mean amount for the new shoes" (Origin: from Old English gaemne, common) i.e. Harry is vertically challenged 2) *Intermediate in size, extent, quality, time, or degree; medium.* (Origin from Middle English mene, middle, from Old French meien, from Latin medinus, from medius) Being of middle age and a mean stature. --Sir. P. Sidney. i.e. Harry is of average height Whether shrimpy or middling Trelawney indentifies it as a Saturn- influenced attribute: William Lilly, Of the Planet Saturn and his significance (from WL's Christian Asrology 1st ed. 1647, reprinted 1985 Regulus) Corporature Most part his Body more cold and dry, of a *middle stature*; his complexion pale, swartish or muddy, his Eyes little and black, looking downward, a broad Forehead, black or sad Hair, and it hard or rugged, great Eares; from The Book of Secrets of Albertus Magnus Children born under Saturn If he be Lord of the nativity, he maketh the children of proud heart, lofty in honours, sad, keeping anger, upright in counsel, disagreeing with their wives, malicious; of stature lean, pale, slender, and hard favoured, thick lips, wide nostrils and cold of nature Erica (Googling at work) From gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 15:15:14 2003 From: gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com (gingersnape1966 ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:15:14 -0000 Subject: Characters You Hate In-Reply-To: <001301c2c870$6a86d9b0$2101a8c0@ACTIONSTEEL.COM> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51103 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: SnapesSlytherin at a... > Okay, my new question of the day (I do this at school every day): Everyone > has strong feelings about certain characters *coughSnapecough*; are there > any > characters that you hate for no reason? You just read about them and think > "Geez...I really don't like them!" but aren't really sure why? > > ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ > Fleur, Fleur, Fleur! Perhaps it is because the French accect, which is so musical when spoken, is hideous in print (although I concede that JKR didn't have much choice but to write it-it is after all a book). Or maybe it is because she is so full of herself. I have followed the posts defending her as a homesick teenager, etc. and they have softened me on her a bit, but she still makes me grit my teeth. Ginger From metal_tiara at hotmail.com Thu Jan 30 15:27:30 2003 From: metal_tiara at hotmail.com (sophineclaire ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:27:30 -0000 Subject: House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51104 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bugfix wrote: > > > > Yes, they must work hard to win the House Cup and it isn't easy to > > achive. But as much as one must learn to work hard to win he must > learn > > to work hard and then to *lose* and how to live with the defeat. > This > > is an important lesson which the seventh year Slytherins apparently > got > > only on their last day in school. > > > > But they DID win it. Regardless of how, we don't know that. It's safe > to assume that there were points awarded to Slyths by professors, > staff and prefects who were NOT Snape. The fact is, they walked into > the hall having WON THE CUP by THE SCHOOL RULES. Whether they'd won > before and it was "someone else's turn" is MOOT. If DD was going to > award extra points (as has been said here countless times already) > and change the tally he had AMPLE time to do it before the > decorations went up. His behaviour was deplorable. It embarrassed > Snape (no surprise there, we soon learn that's a favored hobby of > his), ticked off the Slytherins and must have been a terrible blow to > the Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs as well. Now--tell me what lesson > those 7th year Slyths learned on their last day at Hogwarts again? What lesson did it teach 7th year Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs? They too have gone 7 years without winning. A little satisfaction that another house won instead? maybe, but that's a little petty too isn't it? How unfair to the Hufflepuffs, who were 3rd and above Gryffindor, to become 4th so that Gryffindor could become 1st. WHat about for the Ravenclaws who dropped from 2nd to 3rd for the same purpose. All three houses got demoted. I think it was more than just the Slyths who lost. Look, if you were in an academic competition and you school won the competition for the past 6 years, how would you feel if you had won, been given a trophy/banner, only to have it taken away from you in front of everyone and the basis that it was someone elses turn to win and the judges rigged the scores to justify the change. How MORTIFYING! Sure, everyone thinks it's great at first. A Superstar's fall from glory, but once you think on it a bit, it doesn't say much about the character of the judges or the fairness of the competition in the first place now does it? -SophineClaire From melclaros at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 15:28:41 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:28:41 -0000 Subject: Snape's rationality In-Reply-To: <009b01c2c814$8a224cc0$8c6463d1@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51105 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" . . > > Who said Snape treated Harry fairly? And even if they did, um, so what if he > doesn't? Nobody promised fair. I think Harry will come to appreciate the > ultimate effect of Snape's attitude--for Harry does not expect fair from > him, and he learns to handle adversity and deal with it. Draco has learned > nothing except how to sponge and whine. Who will be the better prepared in > ~Amandageist, Snapologist me: You know this business of "Snape is mean to Harry" is stating to hack me off. YES HE IS! He's downright horrible to Harry at times. He's downright horrible to just about EVERYONE at times. We see him being awful to Neville and Hermione and if all the books were 2000 pages long we'd likely get to see him treat most, if not all his students (Including his "pet" Slytherins--how do we know what's going on in the Slyth. HQs?) to some threat or sneering insult. He called them ALL Dunderheads on the first day. AND SO WHAT? Harry, of any student at Hogwarts should A) after his life-long mistreatment by the Dursleys HARDLY NOTICE and B) if he does notice he, out of any student at Hogwarts should be the MOST ABLE TO DEAL WITH IT. Harry is used to being treated badly. What's the big deal? He doesn't have to be coddled and favored by EVERYONE. Who here is? He gets more than enough kid glove treatment from everyone else at HW to make up for his sad previous years. He's no nicer to Snape than Snape is to him. He wasted no time in smart-mouthing him on the first day of class. As Amanda (and others have pointed out) Harry has yet to thank, or even aknowledge Snape's saving his life in PS/SS and his subsequent actions on Harry's behalf as the story has progressed. Can we just accept it as a given? Snape is mean to Harry. Harry is disrespectful of Snape. (*Professor* Snape, Harry.) It's likely they'll never get along. In fact, if they join in the group hug at the end of book 7 I'll be the first in line at the vomitorium. Melpomene (I like that term, Snapologist! Is there a degree in that?) From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Jan 30 15:46:04 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:46:04 -0000 Subject: House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51106 Melpomene wrote: > But they DID win it. Regardless of how, we don't know that. It's safe > to assume that there were points awarded to Slyths by professors, > staff and prefects who were NOT Snape. The fact is, they walked into > the hall having WON THE CUP by THE SCHOOL RULES. Whether they'd won > before and it was "someone else's turn" is MOOT. That is false. Absolutely. You might as well said that the first house to win points at the start of the year are the winners. The fact is that the school year hadn't ended yet, and thus there was still time for last minute points. If a troll had suddenly irrupted into the Hall, and the students of one house had blasted it with curses, they would've been awarded points, maybe enough to win themselves. The situation is not different. > If DD was going to > award extra points (as has been said here countless times already) > and change the tally he had AMPLE time to do it before the > decorations went up. And yet there is one very good reason for giving the points during the feast: it was the very first time Harry had been conscious. It is obvious from the books that whenever points are awarded or substracted, the student involved *has* to be present. Unless I am missing something, there hasn't been a single ocasion where points were awarded or substracted behind the student's back. Then again, Dumbledore is not only giving the Gryffindors the house cup, he is making a point: that defeating Voldemort is something everyone should be ready to do, and that is something that Dumbledore will approve, and reward. Finally, there is one last circumstance no-one has pointed out before. You all mention Dumbledore's favoritism as something horrible because it was done publicly, while this in fact the way it should be done. Let's say Dumbledore had awarded the 170 points (or better yet, the 500 points *I* would've awarded them for what they did) sometime while Harry was unconscious. Gryffindor suddenly has passed from last place to first in a night, during the week after the exams when all the students are bidding their time while teachers correct exams, and there is no Quidditch matches. At that point, *everyone* would've assumed that there had to have been favoritism, and in fact it would seem that it had been done just so that Slytherin didn't win for the 7th time in a row. > His behaviour was deplorable. It embarrassed > Snape (no surprise there, we soon learn that's a favored hobby of > his), ticked off the Slytherins Do you really think the Slytherins would've been less ticked off if they had lost the House Cup two days before, when Gryffindor suddenly found itself one moning with 170 extra, unspecified points? If you don't mind me saying so, that would've ticked them off exactly the same way, if not more. > and must have been a terrible blow to > the Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs as well. > > Melpomene Excuse me? Yellow flag [Canon violation] for you, Melpomene. Both Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw were as happy as Gryffindor with the victory, and indeed they celebrated the defeat of Slytherin as much as Gryffindor celebrated its victory. They certainly didn't seem to have received any sort of blow (except a positive one) when they were clapping and shouting. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 15:46:11 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214 ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:46:11 -0000 Subject: Snape's rationality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51107 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros " wrote: He's downright horrible to Harry at times. He's > downright horrible to just about EVERYONE at times. We see him being > awful to Neville and Hermione and if all the books were 2000 pages > long we'd likely get to see him treat most, if not all his students > (Including his "pet" Slytherins--how do we know what's going on in > the Slyth. HQs?) to some threat or sneering insult. He called them > ALL Dunderheads on the first day. Me: If you accept it as a given that Snape is horrible to Harry, I can only applaud. I do disagree though that he is just down right horrible to everyone (I am talking about his students only). Whom else he treats as badly as HArry, Hermione and Neville? Yeah, he could be just as nasty to his Slyths in private but to me it is just wishful thinking at the moment. > AND SO WHAT? Harry, of any student at Hogwarts should > A) after his life-long mistreatment by the Dursleys HARDLY NOTICE and > B) if he does notice he, out of any student at Hogwarts should be the > MOST ABLE TO DEAL WITH IT. Me: Harry does deal with it the only way he knows how by not trusting Snape (I can't blame him)and being rude to him (most of time I can't blame him either) > Harry is used to being treated badly. What's the big deal? He doesn't > have to be coddled and favored by EVERYONE. Me: For example by McGonagall, who does not hesitate to take 50 points off him? Who here is? He gets more > than enough kid glove treatment from everyone else at HW to make up > for his sad previous years. Me: This is bad how? > He's no nicer to Snape than Snape is to him. He wasted no time in > smart-mouthing him on the first day of class. Me: That is the problem in my mind. I expect much more from the Hogwards professor than I expect from the child. Children learn how to behave when they grow up and mature. Snape is supposed to learn something by now. As Amanda (and others > have pointed out) Harry has yet to thank, or even aknowledge Snape's > saving his life in PS/SS and his subsequent actions on Harry's behalf > as the story has progressed. Me: Oh, he should and I have no doubts that he will later. Will Snape ever apologize to Harry? I am not so sure. Alla From firekat482 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 14:49:10 2003 From: firekat482 at yahoo.com (firekat482 ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 14:49:10 -0000 Subject: House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: <20030130140956.31115.qmail@web40502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51108 Kathryn wrotte: I think Dumbledore was right giving them those points. HRH did something that proved their knowledge and ability, as well as their character. They did something for the good of the WW as a whole even when they had been told, by Hagrid and McGonagall, that they shouldn't bother with it. bboy_mn: Sorry, but you will never convince me that evil Dumbledore snatch an undeserved victory from the hands of the poor hard working deserving Slytherins and gave it to Gryffindor. They deserves three times the point that he awarded them, but he chose to be very modest about it. That is my story and I am sticking to it. Now me: If I'm reading this correctly, I believe that both of you are arguing the same thing: that the Trio (and Neville) deserved the points they were awarded. It seems to me (and this is going to be a generalization, so if anyone disagrees feel free to say) that no one here is arguing that those points weren't deserved. I'm a bit of a Slytherin sympathizer myself, but I firmly believe that the Gryffindors earned those points. The problem I have is with the way Dumbledore awarded them, and why has already been explained a great deal by Elkins. She writes: Rather, the objection is usually that the Trio and Neville earned those points long in advance of the Leaving Feast. This meant that Dumbledore had ample time to award them *before* the very last minute. Instead, however, by allowing Slytherin colors to be displayed in the hall, he chose to convey the impression that the contest was already closed and that House Slytherin was in possession of the Cup, before pulling what I must say has always come across to me as a rather childish and unwarranted "nanny-nanny-boo-boo" on a group of students whose House already has a long-standing enmity to Dumbledore's own, and who therefore already likely had strong reason to suspect their Headmaster of bias against them. Now me again: I could not agree with this more. This awful, obvious show of favoritism really grates on my nerves. By awarding the points this way Dumbledore shows a total lack of respect for the Slytherin house and Snape as well. I would imagine that it was a few weeks before Snape felt like talking to the Headmaster again. What Dumbledore should have done IMHO (as the impartial Headmaster that he is supposed to be) was award those points as soon he became aware of what the Trio had done. By waiting until the last second the only thing he accomplished was the further alienation of the Slytherin house. And these are the people he cannot afford to estrange. I'm not really sure if I've added anything new to the discussion here. I just had to get my 2 knuts in, I guess. That scene at the end of PS/SS has been bothering me for a while now, and when a thread popped up about it I found it hard to keep my mouth shut, even when people are describing my POV better than I ever could. ~Jean Although I can accept talking scarecrows, lions, and great wizards of emerald cities, I find it hard to believe that there is no paperwork involved when your house lands on a witch. ~Dave James From suzloua at hotmail.com Thu Jan 30 15:56:32 2003 From: suzloua at hotmail.com (Susan Atherton) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:56:32 -0000 Subject: favourite lines Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51109 Without a doubt, my favourite lines are: Dialogue - PS - "But we're not stupid. We know we're called Gred and Forge." Narrative - PoA - "'Ah, Peter. Good of you to join us,' said Lupin pleasantly, as though rats frequently erupted into old schoolfriends all around him." Susan who loves any and all lines by F&G ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "Help me Jebus!" --Homer Simpson "Shame on you! Ugly baby judges you!" --Ross Geller "Oh yeah, and did I mention I've got a baby?" --Stuart Alan Jones "You know, I telephoned my grandparents the other day, and my grandfather said to me, 'We saw your movie.' 'Which one?' I said, and he shouted, 'Betty, what was the name of that movie I didn't like?'" --Brad Pitt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Jan 30 16:01:30 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 16:01:30 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's employment policy (WAS: Characters You Hate) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51110 Snapesangel xxx wrote: > 4. The things he seeems to do, or let happen that are explained simply > in cannon, but leave me thinking "eh?!" like employing Lockhart as > DADA teacher. I know there were n't any other applicants, but could > n't he have done it himself or given another teachers or teachers > extra duties. Maybe he could 've enlisted a ghost to teach the non > practical bits...Anyway, just strat seems negligent to me. > > Snapesangel xxx That is a very bad example of a bad decision of Dumbledore. What do you think "no other applicant" means? If there was no one else to choose from, there is no one else to choose from, and that's it. You cannot say that Dumbledore should've put a ghost or another of the teachers or even himself. Dumbledore is not stupid, if there had been any other options he would've considered them. There was a theory a couple of months ago going around that said that there is simply no applicants to the DADA position due to a conjunction of circunstances. One, that anyone who knew about it - including most teachers - were probably the first ones to be targeted by the DEs, so very few would've survived the war. And of course, some of the few that are left might not want to appear to be competent, just in case the DEs want to go looking for fun. Then again, there is that rumour that the position is jinxed, and that might put others off. Or are you suggesting that, since the only person that is willing to teach the DADA lessons is Lockhart, Dumbledore should *force* someone into the position? That is what you seem to be suggesting, after all: to get someone who *does not* want the job and force him to teach it anyway. The bottom line is that even if there is a qualified ghost out there that could teach the lessons, or a teacher of Hogwarts had enough time to teach DADA (which is false, no teacher has that much time, it's a full-time job that requires 42 hours/week just for lessons, which comes out to 8.4 hours a day), Dumbledore would never force anyone into a position he doesn't want, because he's a decent person and a good headmaster. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Jan 30 16:20:23 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 16:20:23 -0000 Subject: Fat wizards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51111 Torsten wrote: > I'd like to adress two points: > > 1. Shouldn't wizards on average be overweight compared to muggles? > They don't play any sports which actually requires the work of > muscles (and as for the Quidditch players, only the Beaters truly > exercize). They have no P.E. classes in school. They also don't do > much housework (or any other kind of physically stressing work) > themselves, it all requites just a little wand waving (or a > houseelf). Some even spare themselves the stairs and just apparate to > the kitchen for breakfast ... > There might be spells to get rid of fat, but I doubt it, or why > didn't anyone tell Bagman about them? > > What do you think? > > Torsten First, I want to point out that most muggles don't practice sports either, what little PE they had at school is long since forgotten by the time they are 30 and many don't do much housework either. Besides, there is one big evil in the overweight department that wizards seem to not have (yet): fast food. The main reason why most (1st world) societies are steaddily gaining weight is, as far as I know, due to the expansion of unhealthy eating habits. I myself don't do sports, or any other form of excercise (I sit in front of computers all day long for work and pleasure) and yet I am not fat by any measure - basically because I know I *could* get fat and I fight it by eating well. Besides, there are a few things that we don't know about magic. It is a well known fact of science that energy cannot be created from nowhere (although I accept some of the -right now- more outlandish theories state that enrgy can be stored in vacuum), so where does the energy for all that "foolish wandwaving" effects come from? Well, it could be that any time a wizard performs magic a little of his mass is converted into energy (a little mass will go a long way, as Einstein said: E=mc^2 i.e. Energy can be obtained from mass at a rate of c^2 times the mass used - c being the speed of light, which is a powerfull multiplier, especially when squared). So, that's the ultimate diet: go about your life normally, and because of it you'll loose weight. Finally, I want to point out that I've always pictured Bagman as the sort of fat person that people that once were very fit turn into when they suddenly stop practicing sports - although I also picture part of his belly to be what in my country is called "beer belly". In a nutshell, he is not fat because he ate too much, bu because most of the muscles he once had have changed into fat. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 16:26:07 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 16:26:07 -0000 Subject: Snape's rationality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51112 SCOTT WROTE: I don't mean to be rude, but I think you need to look up 'rational.' I REPLY: That's quite alright. No offense taken. However, I took your advice and looked up 'rational.' I think you'll all be quite amused to see what I found (if you're still following this most scintillating thread.) (American Heritage... unfortunately, the OED is a subscription only service...) rational: adj 1) Having or exercising the ability to reason 2) Of sound mind; sane 3) Consistent with or based on reason; logical Is anyone smiling yet? ;-) We're both, Scott and I, using completely valid definitions of the word 'rational.' However, we're using them in different instances and at cross-purposes. REGARDING SNAPE'S RATIONALITY: SCOTT WROTE: I don't care what Snape's situation is; he LOSES HIS MIND. He gives no one a chance to explain anything, and threatens to have Sirius killed without ever giving Sirius a chance to explain himself, simply because of his hate. I REPLY: You don't care what the situation is? *chuckle* - I thought that that was the reason I brought this up in the first place, ie the situational aspects justify Snape's behavior... what's the point of *having* the discussion if you don't care to listen to the points? ;-) As you can see, I've previously provided several reasons to explain Snape's behavior in the Shrieking Shack as logically derived from the situation with which he's presented. I am clearly using definition 3. Regardless of "motive," which is entirely separate, Snape has several very acceptable, rational reasons for his actions: 1) Sirius tried to kill him previously. 2) Sirius is an escaped convict. 3) MoM wants Sirius so badly that the dementors are authorized to perform the kiss immediately, a highly unorthodox and unusual procedure. 4) HHR are amongst Snape largest detractors and accusers. 5) Snape has no "moral support" in the manner of friends or allies in the situation. 6) Snape, unlike Harry, has not been given any reason to trust the situation. Scott, on the other hand, is clearly using a combination of definitions 1 (repeatedly citing Harry's observation that Snape appears "deranged") and 2 (that Snape is unwilling to listen to any explanations.) So we are both *technically* correct as far as Snape being rational or irrational. It merely depends on which definitions we're using. REGARDING HARRY'S RATIONALITY: According to definition 3, Harry is very rational, in the sense that he is 'logical.' Since he falls for the red herrings in the same way that we all do, it's even justifiable. HHR's theories are nearly always flawed (in the sense that they're incorrect/inaccurate) until the end of the story. That's because they're based on bad preconditions: Examples: PS/SS - Thief!Snape and Killer!Snape are completely inaccurate views, as Hagrid points out three separate times in the story. HHR are, colloquially speaking, UNreasonable, and by synonym, IRrational. However unreasonable HHR's theories are, though, they are quite logically constructed, IF one accepts the two main premises: Thief!Snape and Killer!Snape. Of course, we don't learn until the end of the story that BOTH premises are untrue. Still, the argument is sound in a formal way. CoS - Heir!Malfoy and Heir!Harry are completely inaccurate analyses, as HHR (and we readers) learn as the story progresses. However flawed their conclusions, the debates are logically constructed. Malfoy is a Slytherin. All of his family are Slytherins. Malfoy hates mudbloods. Salazar Slytherin hated mudbloods. Therefore Malfoy is the Heir of Slytherin. It's logically sound. But it's completely unreasonable to assume that Malfoy, crude as he is, is a killer. Same with Heir!Harry The Sorting Hat said Harry'd do well in Slytherin. Harery is a Parselmouth. Salazar Slytherin was a Parselmouth. Harry can hear the killer before it strikes. Therefore Harry is the Heir of Slytherin. Also, given JKR's clever guises, this theory is quite believable when taken in context. But, if Harry would tell simply *tell* Dumbledore about hearing the voice, instead of basing his whole position on Ron's statement, that "it's not good to hear voices that others can't hear [paraphrased]," the whole mystery would have been solved that much faster. I don't think for a second that Dumbledore would have doubted Harry. In that sense, Harry et al are quite UNreasonable in their positions and actions, no matter how logically constructed these positions are, and how good intentioned the actions. In conclusion, to refine my position, I submit: HHR, no matter how badly they (and we) misread the situation, are very rational/logical in their argument construction, but as they do not always act in the most sensible ways, they're not very rational/reasonable. Snape, no matter how mean or angry he is, is eerily rational/reasonable in justification for his behavior in the Shrieking Shack, but as he uses what appear to be hunches/suspicions of HHR, he is not very rational/logical. ;-) Amusing, to say the least, although I do hope to avoid these kinds of semantics in the future - if I wanted to debate the nuances of vocabulary, I would have (totally) joined (like) an etymological society or something. Cheers! -Tom From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 17:01:37 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 17:01:37 -0000 Subject: Who's more out of line? (WAS: Snape and respect) In-Reply-To: <004501c2c7ea$747207a0$40a794d1@vaio> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51113 MELISSA (AND MANY OTHERS SIMILARLY) WROTE RE: HERMIONE'S TEETH: The last straw for me came in GoF, chapter 18, when Hermione's teeth are hit by a spell and grow past her chin, and his only reaction is to say, "I see no difference." That was cruel and unprofessional. Snape is a teacher, an adult. It's one thing for Malfoy's group and Harry's group to be tossing insults back and forth, but he has a duty to be above that. No matter how hard I try, I just can't like Snape. I REPLY: I'm amazed and the number of people that jumped on this thread all at once. When I posted my devil's advocacy bit yesterday, there was only the original post. When I check today, there're, well, WAY more than that. ;-) So: For everyone who got so upset over Snape's treatment of Hermione: were you equally upset when Crouch/Moody turned Malfoy into a ferret and started bouncing him around? Were you as shocked and angry as McGonagall, or, like Ron, did you think it was farily amusing? I bet that some of us even thought that Malfoy *deserved* it, didn't we? IMHO, if we want to be technical, this is a far more serious and grievous offense, and it's a total betrayal of the relationship between teacher and student. Far worse, at any rate, than letting a cruel remark out. And don't try to argue that it wasn't Moody anyways: *we* didn't know that when it happened. Yet somehow I bet that most of us here still thought it was uproariously funny. -Tom From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 17:10:36 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214 ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 17:10:36 -0000 Subject: Who's more out of line? (WAS: Snape and respect) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51114 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall " wrote: > For everyone who got so upset over Snape's treatment of Hermione: > were you equally upset when Crouch/Moody turned Malfoy into a ferret > and started bouncing him around? > And don't try to argue that it wasn't Moody anyways: *we* didn't know > that when it happened. > > Yet somehow I bet that most of us here still thought it was > uproariously funny. > > -Tom Me: I am not going to argue that it wasn't Moody anyways. I did not know that. Am I allowed to be amused and at the same time very bothered by that accident? I can't stand Draco (his only redeeming quality for me at the moment is that he is still a child and can change), but nope, I did not think that Moody (AKA Barty) had any right to do that. In my mind, both accidents were bad. Alla. From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Thu Jan 30 17:25:39 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 12:25:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: The Ferret Bouncing Incident vs. The Teeth Incident (WAS: Snape and respect) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030130172539.58034.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51115 --- "Tom Wall " wrote: > MELISSA (AND MANY OTHERS SIMILARLY) WROTE > For everyone who got so upset over Snape's treatment > of Hermione: > were you equally upset when Crouch/Moody turned > Malfoy into a ferret > and started bouncing him around? Much more actually. The ferret bouncing incident was one of the few places in the books where I found myself feeling sorry for Draco. > Were you as shocked and angry as McGonagall, or, > like Ron, did you > think it was farily amusing? I bet that some of us > even thought that > Malfoy *deserved* it, didn't we? Nah, I felt the punishment *way* exceeded the crime there. But I did find it amusing. As I did Snape's teeth comment. As I did Voldemort's interactions with Pettigrew. Sadism gets me laughing every time, it seems. But not precisely. It wasn't Draco being bounced that tickled my funny bone. I can't much enjoy physical humour on the printed page. It was Barty's unconcerned reaction to McGonagall's horrified protests, his lecture of Draco while bouncing him, and the way he talked to Draco afterwards about Snape that left me howling. But at the same time, I was in no doubt that the ferret-bouncing incident was absolutely horrendous behaviour for a teacher. After all, I found it funny because it was cruel, not because it was ok or Draco deserved it. Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 17:41:34 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 09:41:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030130174134.33220.qmail@web40511.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51116 > bboy_mn responses: > > Ok, enough of this 'hard working Slytherins' baloney > (cow cookies, > meadow muffins, road apples). Snape probably showers > points on the > Slytherin like... er... water. Not to mention that > their hard work > consists of lying, cheating, and doing anything they > can accept > actually earning it, to achieve their ends. They are > afteral Slytherins. Me: It's not baloney. No one will ever convince me that the 472 points they earned were due to lying and cheating. There is no canon to support that. Judging all the Slyths like that is stereotyping. And BTW there is *no* canon that Snape gives them points for nothing. > Here is what McGonagall said about points: (my > emphasis) > > "... your TRIUMPHS will earn your House points, > while any > rule-breaking will lose House points." > > Teachers seem to be able to add or subtract points > based on their own > criteria. Snape takes them away from people he > doesn't like in a very > arbitrary manner, and hands them out likewise. Exactly. It's a very compromised system, IMO. As Elkins says, "So no, they're not fair in the slightest. The entire system is completely arbitrary, which is one of the reasons that I always find it so very amusing that the students seem to be taking that silly House Cup so very seriously." So, Dumbledore rewards them for their courage and bravery by awarding them points that can be assigned and taken away for *anything* else - annoying Snape, for instance. DD's comparing things that can't and shouldn't be compared, IMO. > Points are not academic, although academinc > achievement is ONE of the > things they can be handed out for, and they do get > grades for their > classroom performance. Pass or fail is not based on > House points. That's right. > The trophy/plaque that Riddle was awarded, and the > ones that Harry and > Ron later received, were for SPECIAL SERVICES TO THE > SCHOOL (sorry for > shouting but Yahoo gives us a limited means of > formating). Ridding the > school of an evil monster is service to the school. > Saving the stone > was not, and therefore, the plaque could not be > awarded. So? Like DD couldn't give them some other lind of award, or nominate them for the Order of Merlin. > Again, I ask, what did Slytherin achieve that year? > They sucked up to > Snape. Bullied and cheated there way around the > Quidditch pitch. > Earned a few general routine points that even > Gryffindor earned. Until > they got caught getting rid of baby dragon Norbert, > Gryffindor was way > ahead in House points. Slytherin only won, not by > achievement, but by > default. Bullied and cheated their way to the Cup for 7 years straight? Yeah, right. Slytherin *won* the Cup. And, you know, first justifying this arbitrary system that makes it possible for someone to in by cheating, and then saying that HHR should be rewarded on that system's terms is kind of strange. Also, about getting caught out after hours - they *broke* the rules.. I think it's fair that they got a punishment. It was very harsh, but that was a risk Harry and Hermione took. > So if Triumphs win you point, then the Good-Trio > really got short > changed, because three 11 year olds defeating the > best of what the > teachers could offer for defenses, selflessly > risking their lives, > save the most precious artifact in the entire > wizarding world, and > once again, defeating Voldemort was eons ahead of > anything Slytherin > accomplished. Yes, but... oh, I already said what i think about it. > bboy_mn finishes: > It's always demoralizing when you lose. Maybe we > should take the > politically correct but totally irrational approach > and make everybody > winners, so that no one will have to be demoralized > by losing. Get > over it; Slytherin lost, they lost because their > achievements were so > pale and meaningless compared to the outstanding > accomplishments of > intellect, skill, courage, and magic by Harry, Ron, > and Hermione as to > not even rate mentioning. Slytherin should have lost > 50 points for > being so hopelessly mediocre and mundane in > comparison to Harry, Ron, > and Hermione. Um, *no*. I couldn't disagree with you more. It's demoralizing to have your victory snatched from you at the very last moment. The Slyths won, they were celebrating, their decorations were up, for Heaven's sake, and then DD comes and basically humiliated them in front of everybody. And, I'm told that in house point systems points are awarded for effort, etc. Taking off 50 points for being mundane in comparison... that's just plain wrong, and a pretty harsh thing to say, IMO. I am prepared to say that it's OK to award the trio points for what they did, and I am even prepared to say DD wasn't as generous than he could be, but all that aside, it was *abominable* of him to do it the way he did it. I agree with Elkins when she says "Rather, the objection is usually that the Trio and Neville earned those points long in advance of the Leaving Feast. This meant that Dumbledore had ample time to award them *before* the very last minute. Instead, however, by allowing Slytherin colors to be displayed in the hall, he chose to convey the impression that the contest was already closed and that House Slytherin was in possession of the Cup, before pulling what I must say has always come across to me as a rather childish and unwarranted "nanny-nanny-boo-boo" on a group of students whose House already has a long-standing enmity to Dumbledore's own, and who therefore already likely had strong reason to suspect their Headmaster of bias against them. "Those who object to 'Dissing the Slyths' feel that even aside from all questions of fairness or maturity, this was also rather a serious tactical error on Dumbledore's part, as it seems so very likely to encourage Slytherin students to turn against Dumbledore and all he represents, which in turn means *towards* Dark Magic and Voldemort." > I close by agreeing with you that it is demoralizing > when staff abuse > the awarding and subtracting of point, but that > would be Snape, not > Dumbledore. > > Sorry, but that's still my story and I'm still > sticking to it. > > ..and nothing personal. > > bboy_mn > Not at all. I, OTOH, close my ramblings with a disclaimer: I do not like the Slyths we are acquainted with in the books. I like Gryffindor and HHR. I think what they did in PS was wonderful and well beyond what an average 11-year-old could do. I also think that Gryffindor deserved the House Cup as much as any other House, if not more. However, my feelings of love towards the Gryffs do not let me justify DD's actions at the end of PS just because he happened to favor the House I like. Nothing personal, of course. Maria __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 17:42:16 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 09:42:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who's more out of line? (WAS: Snape and respect) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030130174216.40619.qmail@web20006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51117 --- "Tom Wall " wrote: > MELISSA (AND MANY OTHERS SIMILARLY) WROTE > RE: HERMIONE'S TEETH: > > The last straw for me came in GoF, chapter 18, when > Hermione's teeth are hit by a spell and grow past > her > chin, and his only reaction is to say, "I see no > difference." That was cruel and unprofessional. > Snape > is a teacher, an adult. It's one thing for Malfoy's > group and Harry's group to be tossing insults back > and > forth, but he has a duty to be above that. No matter > how > hard I try, I just can't like Snape. > > I REPLY: > I'm amazed and the number of people that jumped on > this > thread all at once. When I posted my devil's > advocacy bit > yesterday, there was only the original post. When I > check > today, there're, well, WAY more than that. ;-) > > > So: > > For everyone who got so upset over Snape's treatment > of Hermione: > were you equally upset when Crouch/Moody turned > Malfoy into a ferret > and started bouncing him around? > > Were you as shocked and angry as McGonagall, or, > like Ron, did you > think it was farily amusing? I bet that some of us > even thought that > Malfoy *deserved* it, didn't we? > Nope. Well, actually, I wouldn't have minded if another student had turned him into a ferret (though I would've supported punishing the student) but I was very displeased with "Moody" for doing it. I was also displeased of his treatment towards Hermione when she questioned him. I never suspected he was evil, but I never liked him. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Thu Jan 30 16:08:43 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 16:08:43 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's rationality and house points and other stuff References: Message-ID: <3E394E0A.000001.02011@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 51118 -------Original Message------- From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Date: 30 January 2003 15:28:46 To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's rationality --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" . . > > Who said Snape treated Harry fairly? And even if they did, um, so what if he > doesn't? Nobody promised fair. I think Harry will come to appreciate the > ultimate effect of Snape's attitude--for Harry does not expect fair from > him, and he learns to handle adversity and deal with it. Draco has learned > nothing except how to sponge and whine. Who will be the better prepared in > ~Amandageist, Snapologist me: You know this business of "Snape is mean to Harry" is stating to hack me off. YES HE IS! He's downright horrible to Harry at times. He's downright horrible to just about EVERYONE at times. We see him being awful to Neville and Hermione and if all the books were 2000 pages long we'd likely get to see him treat most, if not all his students Melpomene (I like that term, Snapologist! Is there a degree in that?) I don't think I've posted on the main group before (although I tend to gabble away on the ot group) s I'd better state my sympathies first - I fully admit to being pro Slytherin and pro Snape. Having said that I'd quite probably have hated him as a teacher because yes he is mean - to everybody, admittedly he's meaner to the Gryffindors but perhaps he's compensating for the fact that everyone else is mean to the Slytherins. I'll admit we've never seen any real evidence of other staff being overtly prejudiced with the house points (but that doesn't mean they re not) although having said that te words pure dumb luck spring to mind.It s not like they don't all know what Snape is like so I'm sure they subtly compensate for his pro-Slytherin bias with the house points - but like I say we don't know, for all we know in the hufflepuff/ravenclaw classes Flitwick and Sprout could be throwing points at their own students. So anyway I ad two points - firstly Snape's favouritism is imho a direct result of everybody else automatically assuming the Slytherins are always in the wrong - what's the first thing we hear about Slytherins? There's not a wizard who went bad who didn't come from Slytherin (shouldn't be too difficult to defeat them then since they must be outnumbered roughly 3-1). Uh no, I don't think so, two words for you Hagrid (or is it Ron, sorry movie contamination here, I don't remember which says it in the books) Peter Pettigrew (and yes I know he doesn't know it was Peter at the time, but he thins it was Sirius so my point is still there). These kids as far as I can tell spend seven years at school being put into the role of bad guys by everyone else so it's hardly surprising that a lot of them do end up going bad (not that that's the only reason anyone would become evil, but it's a contributing factor). Reading the books we're supposed to automatically assume that any small group of Slytherins skulking in a corner are up to something, but when Snape accuses Harry and his friends of the same thing (which they are) we're supposed to feel that harry is hard done by. By and large Harry and co spend a big chunk of their time breaking school rules, sneaking around after dark, breaking nto Snape's stores/the restricted section of the library etc and by and large they get away with it. harry is after all the last perosn who should be sneaking around the place (or off to Hogsmeade) since he's practically got a target painted on his head but Dumbledore doesn't seem to want to enforce that idea, in fact he seems to secretly enjoy Harry's doings. It's no wonder poor Snape has no people skills, trying to keep the Boy-Who-eeds-a-Leash alive is more than a full time job! Sorry, got a bit carried away - secondly all through the books Snape has not only never done anything to harm Harry ut he's gone out of his way to try and keep him in one piece - something Harry knows - and yet whenever anything happens who do they automatically assume is the bad guy? Snape! Just once I would like Harry to overlook the incredibly bad people skills of Snape (yes I admit he's obnoxious to the kids) and thank him for saving his life. K (can I swap my meideval studies ma that I'm working on for a degree in Snapology? sounds like fun) From mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 30 17:06:03 2003 From: mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com (Edward Post) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 12:06:03 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Wand Conjures the Dark Mark - Significance? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51119 Would it even be necessary to have the spells replayed from Harry's wand since Barty Jr. had confessed, in front of four witnesses, that it was he Barty Jr.) who conjoured the Dark Mark? > >Patty > =============== To which Ed merely replies: it wouldn't be necessary in a WW where everybody believes everybody else. But, if the future holds the Dumbledore "side" as opposed to the "Fudge" side, the witnesses might be split and only have their words to back them up. The courtroom would be full of "Objection! Hearsay!" The wand replay would be considered more objective evidence. Ed ============== To which Patty replies: It would be evidence of whose wand conjoured the Dark Mark, but not of the wizard behind the wand. Patty ============== Ed: Ed and Patty agree on the facts and on what the evidence says *to them*. Ed stubbornly asserts, still, that even though evidence doesn't prove the case to all observers, it's still evidence and, in showcase trials -- and a HP trial might be even more showcase in the Wizards' world than an OJ trial was in our own weird world -- showboating might count more than the actual facts. "If the wand isn't tricked, you must convict!" This thread asked about the significance of the fact that Harry's wand conjured the Dark Mark. All I'm saying is that in a kangaroo court (or that of any bouncing magical creature), the wand has the potential to be used as evidence against Harry's 'good'ness and in favor of his 'dark'ness -- whether or not sympathetic wizards will back up Harry's version of things (and the truth). _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jan 30 18:00:53 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 18:00:53 -0000 Subject: House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51120 The House Championship is not about that modern concept "boosting self-esteem." The point is not to teach all the children to think of themselves as winners. It would be a remarkably wrong-headed way to do that, since only one quarter of the students can win. No, it is supposed to teach those old-fashioned virtues, sportsmanship and fair play. The fine art, that is, of letting the best man win. This is consistent with a warrior ethos rather than a commercial one--there is but one prize and it can only be won or lost. It can't be mass-produced and made available at a reasonable price to everyone. As usual in Rowling, the situation at the end of PS/SS is more complicated than it appears to be. Harry's team is not in last place because of the points lost in saving Norbert. It is in last place because he "missed the last Quidditch match--we were steamrollered by Ravenclaw without you." This is *important.* Playing against Seeker-less Gryffindor, Ravenclaw could have amassed enough points to clinch the House Championship for themselves. They don't, because it wouldn't be sporting to use Harry's absence to take advantage, even of Slytherin. Slytherin itself, alas, has no such compunction. If Harry had played against Ravenclaw, he could have easily won the 160 points needed to beat Slytherin, and Slytherin knows this. Still, they not only cling to their false victory (instead of offering to cede the Cup, as Cedric offered to cede the Tri-wizard Cup to Harry), they glory in it. That's why they are made to lose in such a humiliating way. If the seventh-year Slytherins did not see this, it can only be because they are already focused on "their powers and their pleasures" rather than "their rights and their freedom" -- They have already chosen their side, and it isn't Dumbledore's. I suspect it's only us grown-ups who need to assure ourselves that Slytherin *really* deserved defeat. Children know a moral illustration when they see one, and are quite happy to see the good triumph and the bad punished. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jan 30 18:12:33 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 18:12:33 -0000 Subject: Snape and respect In-Reply-To: <3E390DF8.6385.3A54E68@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51121 Shaun said: >>Even if I accept that's true - and I do to an extent - even if I accept that Hermione is a soldier, for that to even start to excuse Snape's behaviour, he'd have to be a drill instructor. I don't believe he is. He's a teacher. She is a school girl. A teacher should *never* lose sight of that, even if the child does.<<< You're referring, perhaps, to the incidents when Hermione set Snape on fire, broke into his office and helped knock him unconscious? If they were both adults, I'd say she had it coming. Now, it's clear that Snape has no appetite for children, and in the real world he shouldn't be teaching. But the Potterverse isn't the real world, it's a place where the adult world contains Beings like Hags, whose appetite for children is of quite a different sort Stories with a child protagonist can be as shallow as Scooby-Doo or as profound as Twain, but seldom will you find that the child's victory depends on anybody taking pity on the child for childhood's sake. Usually, when an adult takes pity on a story-child, it's a Very Bad Sign (cf. the witch in Hansel and Gretel). The adult will in the end prove to be ineffectual if not actually villainous. To have it otherwise would make the adult rather than the child into the protagonist -- Greek *proto* first, agonistes, actor, combatant, (from *agonizesthai*, to contend, from *agonia*, contest, from *agon*, from *agein*, to drive, lead. As to your other point, Snape *is* The Trio's drill instructor, in a sense--his antagonism does much to force the Trio into a unit in Book One. And while 14 year old Hermione does indeed need a space where she doesn't have to be a soldier, a corridor full of Slytherins, one of whom has threatened her life more than once, is not it. Even if Hermione learns from this that she shouldn't rely on Snape, or any of her teachers, to protect her--that may have been his intention or part of it. Two of Hermione's teachers have proved to be less than protective, to say the least. It is already clear at the time of the incident that something is once again rotten in the state of Hogwarts, and that no student could have confunded the Cup. As to all that goes on in Snape's head I couldn't begin to guess, but I will submit a LOLLIPOPS apologia for Snape's behavior in this scene. He has once again arrived just too late to prevent a Muggle-born witch from taking a curse meant for Harry Potter. Pippin From susannahlm at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 18:12:54 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 18:12:54 -0000 Subject: You're Reading the Wrong Book Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51122 Pickle Jimmy wrote: JK is writing a book in which we are *meant* to - -Hate Malfoy and Love Harry -Cheer for Gryffindor and Boo Slytherin -Love Lupin, hate Snape, think Trelawney is an old crackpot and cringe at Hermione's Lockhart crush -See a struggle of good over evil in which good will eventually triumph -And understand that it is our choices above anything else that makes us who we are. So, if you Love Snape and think he was mis-treated, if you cheer when Slytherin win, if Malfoy the bouncing ferret brought a tear to your eye (and not from laughing - like mine was), if you're hoping that Lupin/Black/Dumbledore/McGonagall/etc turn out to be Evil, then *you are reading the wrong book* Now me: In other words, JKR is writing a book in which we are never supposed to disagree with the protaganist's first impressions. Does that mean that: "Hate Malfoy--" Because Harry hates Malfoy currently, Malfoy will never be redeemed? "Hate Snape--" At the end of Book Three, when Harry (and me) thought that Snape was nothing but a petty and embittered school teacher, Snape really *was* nothing but a petty and embittered school teacher? I'll remind you that he *wasn't;* although we didn't know it yet, he was also an Ex-Death Eater double-agent who had risked an awful lot fighting Lord Voldemort. (*Despite* natural inclinations--a big shout- out to Elkins's "Snape as Sadist!") "Hope that Lupin/Black/Dumbledore/McGonagall/etc turn out to be Evil, then *you are reading the wrong book*" So what happens if JKR *goes* with Ever-So-Evil McGonagall? Does that mean that she's *writing* the wrong book? I mean, the central problem I have with your criticism--*aside* from the fact that you speak as if there's only one "correct" reading, and *aside* from the fact that you seem to suggest that all other readings are intentionally subversive--is that you seem to have somehow forgotten that there are still three books to go. You honestly seem to be saying that the way we feel at the end of Book Four about the characters is the way we will feel at the end of Book Seven. Why? Certainly the way we felt at the end of Book One about the characters isn't the way we feel at the end of Book Four. *Right?* Derannimer (who has a sneaking suspiscion that some may answer that question "Wrong.") From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 18:13:13 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 18:13:13 -0000 Subject: House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: <20030130174134.33220.qmail@web40511.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51123 STEVE bboy_mn WROTE: [Harry] at 11 years of age, with the help of his friends, defeated the best protections the staff of Hogwarts had to offer, not to mention solving the mystery to the extent that they were even able to get down into the enchanted chambers. END QUOTE. I REPLY: Steve, I really have to respectfully disagree with you here. I do not perceive the trio's success on the "obstace course," as Maria referred to it, to be any great accomplishment at all. In fact, the first time that I read PS/SS, I thought that the stone's protections were pretty lame, and that anyone could have gotten through them. -The trio did zero to beat Fluffy, as not only did Hagrid gave them the answer, but they didn't even have to strum an out-of-tune guitar, 'cause Quirrell had already taken care of it for them via enchanted harp. -Recognizing Devil's snare should be no big deal for any experienced wizard, so no great shakes there. -They didn't even have to really think to figure out what key opened the door, since the wings on the correct key were already broken by Quirrell when he went through the first time. All Harry had to do was use his eyes and a minor bit of logic. Actually, I'm much more interested in figuring out how Quirrell found that key. -The only serious skill involved, as far as I'm concerned, was Ron's chess game. And even *that's* ridiculous, that he could beat McGonagall, if chess is indeed, a strength of hers. Unless JKR wants us to somehow believe that at eleven years old, Ron Weasley is a magical Bobby Fischer. -And, for all his bravery (give credit where credit is due, I say,) Harry's victory was also pretty lame. He didn't, after all, really *DO* anything, unless you consider "being" to be action, which some do, to be comprehensive in my coverage. Quirrell died as a result of Harry's special protection, and Voldemort *wasn't* that stong anyways. Harry basically just stood there and held on. And for *that*, Dumbledore awarded Gryffindor enough points to win the House Cup? Hogwash. And timing? I'm 100% with Elkins and Maria here. *Humiliating* is not the word for what Dumbledore did to the Slytherins. STEVE bboy_mn WROTE: Not to mention that their hard work consists of lying, cheating, and doing anything they can accept actually earning it, to achieve their ends. END QUOTE. I REPLY: There is nothing to support that in canon. In fact, from what I recall, it's the Gryffindors who do more lying and cheating and breaking of rules, as far as I can see. The Slytherins' cunning comes across to me as stuff like setting up Harry to meet in the trophy room for a sham duel. That's cunning. It comes across to me as reporting Harry's rule-breaking to McGonagall. Doesn't anyone think it's ODD that Slytherin was on a seven year winning streak and only started losing once Harry 'n the gang showed up? I do. Extremely odd. And if it doesn't point more to favoritism than the other evidence, then I don't know what does. Obviously Slytherin is full of capable people. Slytherin has a very capable Quidditch team, for one, and the Nimbus 2001's didn't come until CoS. You don't lie and cheat your way through seven years of victories. One, okay, two, fine. Three even. Sure. *Not* seven. The idea that Slytherin won for seven years running, and would have won for an eighth if Dumbledore hadn't interfered, does not indicate to me that this is the direct result of undue favoritism from the Snape, either. On that note - MARIA WROTE: No one will ever convince me that the 472 points they earned were due to lying and cheating. There is no canon to support that. Judging all the Slyths like that is stereotyping. And BTW there is *no* canon that Snape gives them points for nothing. END QUOTE: I reply: I completely agree. I don't recall *any* instances in canon to support the notion that Snape gives Slytherin points unfairly, and the Gryffindors and Slytherins have Potions together in several of the four books. Snape likes Malfoy, sure. But have you ever seen him give him points in Potions class? You know, come to think about it, I don't think we've ever seen Snape give his own students points even once. OTOH, I recall numerous instances of McGonagall rewarding her own students. Hermione gets points in Transfiguration all the time. However, to be fair, she is a strict and severe disciplinarian who can take them away as well. -Tom From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 18:21:30 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 18:21:30 -0000 Subject: House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51124 Pippin wrote: If Harry had played against Ravenclaw, he could have easily won the 160 points needed to beat Slytherin, and Slytherin knows this. Still, they not only cling to their false victory (instead of offering to cede the Cup, as Cedric offered to cede the Tri-wizard Cup to Harry), they glory in it. I reply: I'm not sure that that's how Quidditch points work - i.e. that they translate exactly to the House Cup - and that means I'm dubious that Harry could have easily won that final 160 points in a Quidditch game. If that was the case, then our point totals at the end of the year, which are usually under 500, are either the result of massive points loss during the year (because there would be so many Quidditch points to lose), or else they don't translate point-for-point. In fact, if anyone has any canon on this, I'd appreciate it, since I can't find anything, anywhere, to indicate exactly how winning the Hogwarts "Quidditch Cup" relates to winning the Hogwarts "House Cup." -Tom From jmmears at comcast.net Thu Jan 30 18:23:05 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 18:23:05 -0000 Subject: Who's more out of line? (WAS: Snape and respect) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51125 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall " wrote: > MELISSA (AND MANY OTHERS SIMILARLY) WROTE > RE: HERMIONE'S TEETH: > > The last straw for me came in GoF, chapter 18, when > Hermione's teeth are hit by a spell and grow past her > chin, and his only reaction is to say, "I see no > difference." That was cruel and unprofessional. Snape > is a teacher, an adult. It's one thing for Malfoy's > group and Harry's group to be tossing insults back and > forth, but he has a duty to be above that. No matter how > hard I try, I just can't like Snape. > > I REPLY: > I'm amazed and the number of people that jumped on this > thread all at once. When I posted my devil's advocacy bit > yesterday, there was only the original post. When I check > today, there're, well, WAY more than that. ;-) > > > So: > > For everyone who got so upset over Snape's treatment of Hermione: > were you equally upset when Crouch/Moody turned Malfoy into a ferret > and started bouncing him around? Me: Why would I be equally upset I don't think that this one is a valid comparison. Hermione was an innocent bystander who was injured by the curse Malfoy threw. Malfoy's ferret bouncing was in response to his trying to curse Harry from behind. Throwing curses in the hallways is an egregious violation of the school rules; doing it where you could be seen by a teacher is just plain stupid, and doing it from behind is just vile, cowardly behaviour. I was upset by Snape's treatment of Hermione and can't see how anyone can justify Snape's behavior in this case. Although I find Snape an interesting character, I can never regard him as a good teacher (or decent human being, for that matter) because of his treatment of Hermione and Neville. And, like Eileen, I was both horrified and greatly amused by Draco's ferret-bouncing (particularly in light of the fact that he gets off scot-free for hitting Hermione with that curse in the hall). The first incident is totally unlike the second. > Were you as shocked and angry as McGonagall, or, like Ron, did you > think it was farily amusing? I bet that some of us even thought that > Malfoy *deserved* it, didn't we? Well, yes. I thought of it as a "teaching moment". > IMHO, if we want to be technical, this is a far more serious and > grievous offense, and it's a total betrayal of the relationship > between teacher and student. Far worse, at any rate, than letting a > cruel remark out. Yes, but it was really, really funny. For me, that totally redeems Crouch/Moody bouncing Draco. > And don't try to argue that it wasn't Moody anyways: *we* didn't know > that when it happened. > > Yet somehow I bet that most of us here still thought it was > uproariously funny. Yes, I find that if a character is as amusing and entertaining as Moody/Crouch, and the target is a despicable little bully, somehow I'm going to be a lot less bothered when said bully is on the receiving end. I even considered it a much-needed educational moment for Draco. Some deep-seated personality flaw on my part, I guess, but there it is :--). Jo Serenadust From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Thu Jan 30 18:23:45 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 13:23:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030130182345.94703.qmail@web20415.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51126 --- "pippin_999 " wrote: >Harry's team is > not in last > place because of the points lost in saving > Norbert. It is in last > place because he "missed the last Quidditch > match--we were > steamrollered by Ravenclaw without you." > > This is *important.* Playing against Seeker-less > Gryffindor, > Ravenclaw could have amassed enough points to clinch > the > House Championship for themselves. Do you really think Gryffindor played without a seeker? Why would they do this? Surely, someone played seeker. Just not someone who was properly trained. Should I ask why Wood didn't see fit to train a proper reserve seeker? Or does this suggest some nasty things about the Gryffindor team? (As does the fact that all these chasers come from one year and that Lee Jordan referred to Alicia Spinnet as a good friend of Wood's when introducing her in PS/SS.) > They don't, > because it > wouldn't be sporting to use Harry's absence to take > advantage, > even of Slytherin. Slytherin itself, alas, has no > such compunction. So, the Slytherins are at fault because Oliver Wood's cliquish behaviour met with an unforeseen obstacle? I wasn't at all upset when I heard Ravenclaw steamrollered Gryffindor. I was laughing at Wood getting his come-uppance. > If Harry had played against Ravenclaw, he could > have easily > won the 160 points needed to beat Slytherin, and > Slytherin > knows this. Still, they not only cling to their > false victory > (instead of offering to cede the Cup, as Cedric > offered to cede > the Tri-wizard Cup to Harry), they glory in it. Really, this is a game. Why should anyone be at fault for Harry not being about to win, any more than the team who wins the Stanley Cup should feel bad about the losing team's star player being injured and out of the line-up? Where does morality come into this story? > That's why they are made to lose in such a > humiliating way. If > the seventh-year Slytherins did not see this, it can > only be > because they are already focused on "their powers > and their > pleasures" rather than "their rights and their > freedom" -- They > have already chosen their side, and it isn't > Dumbledore's. An interesting assertion, but textual evidence? What exactly had these seventh-year Slytherins done that was so deserving of humiliation? Not ceded the cup on the basis that had the Gryffindor seeker not been injured, Gryffindor would have won it? And here, I thought the Cup was about teaching the warrior ethos, and how to accept it when life doesn't work out as you'd like it. > > I suspect it's only us grown-ups who need to assure > ourselves > that Slytherin *really* deserved defeat. Children > know a moral > illustration when they see one, and are quite happy > to see the > good triumph and the bad punished. "Children are innocent and prefer justice, while we are guilty and prefer mercy." - G.K. Chesterton But I'm not that impressed with children's moral vision, to tell the truth. I'm quite sure that most children see nothing wrong with dissin' the Slyths. That's why growing up is a good thing. Learning that life is not so black and white is a not a bad thing, as long as they don't entirely lose their moral compass. Despite a child's emotional reaction to the scene, an adult can judge quite correctly that what Dumbledore did was not appropriate. Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From stbinch at actionsd.com Thu Jan 30 18:50:51 2003 From: stbinch at actionsd.com (Steve Binch) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 11:50:51 -0700 Subject: Sirius Black's Hide-Out References: <1043939739.24382.8195.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <005f01c2c890$83095d30$2101a8c0@ACTIONSTEEL.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 51127 I was just listening to GoF again. But this time, after having my brain polluted by all you Evil-Black-ists, I was being skeptical of things I had previously accepted as truth. Like, what if there was another reason that Sirius didn't want Hedwig to deliver any more letters to him? And what if he didn't break into another wizard's home to use the fire? What I'm suggesting (I don't believe it myself, but it does seem possible) is that Sirius is hiding out at the Riddle house with his old pal Voldemort. That is why he doesn't want Hedwig coming back, and that is why head-in-the-fire communication is used. Any thoughts? Further speculation? Previous discussion? -Steve From oppen at mycns.net Thu Jan 30 09:26:27 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 03:26:27 -0600 Subject: The Trio's reward, in PS/SS Message-ID: <000201c2c891$39ba02a0$76560043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 51128 One of my learned friends (sorry, but I get this list in digest form and can't remember the name) made an eloquent argument recently for the correctness of Dumbledore's awarding of points to the Trio for their actions in foiling Quirrelmort's plans to steal the Stone. While all of her points were correct, I think she misses the thrust of the arguments against D'dore's actions, and, inadvertently, cheapens the Trio's own accomplishments while attempting to praise them. Dumbledore should have awarded the points, if he intended so to do, immediately after the events of That Night. Waiting until the banquet, while a very dramatic move (and I do think D'dore is a showman and attention-sponge who loves the limelight) was, to put it mildly, unnecessary. Points are generally awarded, or taken away, on the spot, at the scene of the action that provoked the point-giving or -taking. That way, the Slytherins wouldn't have had that unpleasant surprise when D'dore awarded the points at the banquet, and the subsequent change of decor. I do think that D'dore chose the dramatic way to do it because, as I have stated, he loves being dramatic and loves the limelight. At the same time, what the Trio did was, as has been pointed out above, far above-and-beyond mere student stuff. What they did, it can be easily argued, saved the entire Wizard World. In _Prisoner of Azkaban,_ Severus Snape apparently confidently expects the Order of Merlin for merely capturing an escaped convict, albeit one who is thought to be particularly dangerous. And he is an adult, a fully-trained wizard of some experience, _not_ a twelve-year-old. Being fobbed off with house points, although satisfying for HR+H, would strike me as being short-changed were I in their boots. So-o-o, how does this sound? Professor Dumbledore awards the House Cup to Slytherin---and, then, announces that "three of our pupils, first-years at that, performed far above and beyond the call of duty, as you all know. Therefore, it gives me great pleasure to announce that Mr. Harry Potter, Mr. Ron Weasley, and Miss Hermione Granger have been awarded the Order of Merlin for their self-sacrificial bravery in the face of Unspeakable Evil. Come forth, Mr. Potter, Mr. Weasley, and Miss Granger." After getting _that,_ the House Cup would still be Slytherin's, but it would look pretty tawdry and tacky---kind of like getting a sports trophy, and then finding out that the losing team includes people who're getting the Medal of Honor or the Victoria Cross. The Gryffindors would go _nuts_ at having first-year members of _their_ house singled out for adult-level awards for heroism, too. From heidit at netbox.com Thu Jan 30 18:54:26 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 13:54:26 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who's more out of line? (WAS: Snape and respect) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <018a01c2c891$03f75870$2401010a@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 51129 > -----Original Message----- > From: serenadust [mailto:jmmears at comcast.net] > And, like Eileen, I was both horrified and greatly amused by Draco's > ferret-bouncing (particularly in light of the fact that he gets off > scot-free for hitting Hermione with that curse in the hall). The > first incident is totally unlike the second. But he wasn't aiming at Hermione. He was aiming at Harry, who was aiming at Malfoy, and as Harry said... 'We attacked each other at the same time!' Harry shouted. '-and he hit Goyle - look -' Snape examined Goyle, whose face resembled something that would have been at home in a book on poisonous fungi. So in your mind, Draco should've been punished, although Harry shouldn't have, even though they were dueling in the hallway? The first incident is totally unlike the second, because in the first, he was probably trying to curse Harry from behind (although to miss at that distance gives me the impression that he was either really shaken up by what Harry said, or he was trying to get his attention rather than actually hurt him) and in the second, he and Harry were actually battling each other - neither was going to be caught by surprise, and in fact, they both acted at the same instant. It's clear that Crouch's transfiguration and subsequent physical assault on Draco were out of line - Prof. McGonnagall says so in that very scene. And it's also clear that even later in the year, he's still rattled by Moody, as evidenced by how jumpy he gets when Hermione pretends to see Moody passing nearby later in the book. But moreso than that, his words are enough to rattle Snape on occasion. He hates Death Eaters who walked free - he says as much while under the Veritasserum. Following this line of reasoning in a logical progression, he hates Lucius Malfoy, who, we know at the end of the book, is a Death Eater who walked free. Crouch likely knows this - and knew this on that first day of classes when he transfigured Draco and smashed him from floor up to the high ceiling. I'd bet that Crouch's treatment of Draco (and possibly of other Slytherins) in DaDA is as bad if not worse than Snape's treatment of Harry, et al, in potions, because Crouch has many opportunities, such as during the teaching of the Imperio curse, to be physically cruel to his students. I wrote about this extensively in my fanfic, Surfeit of Curses (WIP on Schnoogle at http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Heidi, Chapter six if you're just looking for my take on Crouch's teaching style from a Slytherin perspective). I find it a bit odd, actually, to hear people praise Crouch's treatment of Draco. I mean, the man killed his father and was preparing to kill Harry - and we're supposed to continue to feel praiseworthy about his actions towards a student? This is about 180 degrees away from PickleJimmy's post of late last night, where he posted that people who don't feel X, Y or Z are reading the wrong book. Are those who think Crouch did the right thing reading the same book as I am? Do you really think his motives were pure and completely focused on helping/being kind to Harry? Why? Heidi Follow me to FictionAlley Fanfics of all shapes, sizes and SHIPs http://www.fictionalley.org From julia at thequiltbug.com Thu Jan 30 18:11:19 2003 From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 10:11:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who's more out of line? Message-ID: <20030130101119.18911.h010.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> No: HPFGUIDX 51130 "Tom Wall " wrote: > > For everyone who got so upset over Snape's treatment of Hermione: > were you equally upset when Crouch/Moody turned Malfoy into a ferret > and started bouncing him around? > > Were you as shocked and angry as McGonagall, or, like Ron, did you > think it was farily amusing? I bet that some of us even thought that > Malfoy *deserved* it, didn't we? > Yes, but Malfoy was attacking another student, and Hermione was just standing there and not even participating in the incident that caused her teeth to grow. That's what separates the two in my mind. Julia From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Jan 30 18:56:53 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 18:56:53 -0000 Subject: House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51131 Tom Wall wrote: > In fact, > the first time that I read PS/SS, I thought that > the stone's protections were pretty lame, and that > anyone could have gotten through them. Not anyone. I doubt Any other three students of first year could've passed it, for one thing. Crabbe, Goyle and Draco wouldn't pass them *ever*, in fact. > -The trio did zero to beat Fluffy, as not only did > Hagrid gave them the answer, but they didn't even > have to strum an out-of-tune guitar, 'cause Quirrell > had already taken care of it for them via enchanted > harp. MEEEC! Movie contamination! The trio used the flute that Harry got from Hagrid for Christmas to get past Fluffy, because "he didn't feel like singing". Besides, there you have the example of a difficult to pass obstacle: you had to get Hagrid to tell you the secret (OK; easy once you knew Hagrid's debilities, but Fluffy itself is something to take into account). > -Recognizing Devil's snare should be no big deal for > any experienced wizard, so no great shakes there. You don't -and can't- know that. Hermione read about it in Herbology, and that means that it's not part of the class, but something extra she was reading just for the kicks. (Assuming you know nothing of Computer Science), I could give you a question on Computer Science, with an answer that can be found in first year books and that almost no-one could answer (yes, I have something specific in mind, but its besides the point). Hermione learns things just for fun - just because she knows about it doesn't mean it's common knowledge. In fact, I assume that Devil Snare is not well known at all - doesn't seem your everyday garden plant. > -They didn't even have to really think to figure out > what key opened the door, since the wings on the > correct key were already broken by Quirrell when he > went through the first time. All Harry had to do > was use his eyes and a minor bit of logic. Actually, > I'm much more interested in figuring out how Quirrell > found that key. The trick wasn't knowing which key was the one, but *catching* it. Harry only manages because he is "the youngest seeker in a century". This is not an obstacle of knowledge, but of ability - as it should be, since if you only task intelligence all intelligent people could pass the obstacles, while this way, you reduce the number of people capable of passing. > -The only serious skill involved, as far as I'm > concerned, Escuse me? would you be able to pass all the other things? A logical puzzle, a giant three headed dog, an obscure plant knowledge and - just for getting this into the real world - a motorcycle race? Chances are that you would fail in at least one, and after all it only takes one. All the obstacles challenge a different thing, and it takes a rare individual to have the abilities to pass all of them, which is what was intended, after all. > was Ron's chess game. And even *that's* > ridiculous, that he could beat McGonagall, if chess > is indeed, a strength of hers. Unless JKR wants us > to somehow believe that at eleven years old, Ron > Weasley is a magical Bobby Fischer. Why couldn't he be? I've known some very good chess players, even at young ages, that could beat experienced players, even when playing at a disadvantage. You're assuming that *McGonagall* is the Gary Kasparov of the WW, and it doesn't have to be - besides, we don't know the sort of intelligence the pieces have. If they work like a computer AI chess program, the ability of the creator has little to do with the end result. For all we know, McGonagall just borrowed the chess pieces of a friend that hadn't trained them well. But, beyond that, I do believe that Ron is a great strategic mind, and that his abilities will not only be revealed in the future books, but that they will prove decesive in the upcoming battle. > -And, for all his bravery (give credit where credit > is due, I say,) Harry's victory was also pretty > lame. He didn't, after all, really *DO* anything, > unless you consider "being" to be action, which some > do, to be comprehensive in my coverage. Quirrell died > as a result of Harry's special protection, and > Voldemort *wasn't* that stong anyways. Harry basically > just stood there and held on. No, what is *really* amazing of the battle is that Harry stood his ground when faced with the most feared being of his entire universe. A creature so vile that people fear to pronounce his name. A creature that, even debilitated, was armed - standing your ground before someone armed with a gun its a victory in itself. Surviving to tell the tale, even if you *were* helped in the end like in Harry's case only adds to the victory. After all, in a fight to death the only thing that matters is to be the one walking away from it at the end. You also say that Voldemort wasn't so powerful - that is not true. Quirrellmort was more than powerful enough to finish off a 11 year old. Harry was hopelessly outchallenged, and, yes, his protection saved him, but Harry had (1) to stand his ground instead of pasing away or falling into panic (which is worth the points alone) (2) Realise that it was his skin that was protecting him (not an easy thing to do when tumbling around with a mortal enemy and a splitting headache and (3) act upon that knowledge. I can't believe you write Harry's amazing victory and guts as "lame". > And for *that*, Dumbledore awarded Gryffindor enough > points to win the House Cup? Hogwash. Wrong. They did not receive the points for passing the obstacles. As has been explained already, Ron received points for *willingly sacrifying himself during the chess match*. That is what makes it the most amazing chess game in the history of Hogwarts. Winning is commonplace in chess. Doing so by sacrifying yourself is much more difficult, and worthy of points. Hermione: you seem to have conveniently forgotten Hermione's challenge when putting them down. The fact is that we have been told that most wizards wouldn't be able to handle logic - which is reasonable, since their world revolves around magic, which is inherently chaotic (i.e. ilogical). Hermione is given points for fine thinking, which is her strong, just as Ron was given points for selfless acting. And finally, Harry was given points for standing his ground against Voldemort, something I *know* most wizards (and, if we find a suitable RL example, most humans) wouldn't do. And that, Tom, is worth the 160 points. > In fact, if anyone has any canon on this, I'd appreciate it, since I > can't find anything, anywhere, to indicate exactly how winning the > Hogwarts "Quidditch Cup" relates to winning the Hogwarts "House Cup." > > -Tom Canon for you: "The house of Gryffindor, in big measure thanks to his espectacular participation in the Quidditch Cup, had won the House Cup for the third consecutive year" (PoA, Sp. Ed., last chapter). Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From mbroadwater at lulu.com Thu Jan 30 18:29:15 2003 From: mbroadwater at lulu.com (Michael Broadwater) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 13:29:15 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and respect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51132 pippin_999 wrote: > You're referring, perhaps,? to the incidents when Hermione set > Snape on fire, broke into his office and helped knock him > unconscious? If they were both adults, I'd say she had it coming. > > Are you insinuating that Snape is psychic? He didn't know that Hermione had committed the first two of those three crimes. The third, OTOH, gives Snape ample room to dislike the heroic trio despite any claims he may have made to Fudge about believing they were the victims of a Confundus charm. I'm personally of the opinion that Snape is a Right Bastard. Doesn't mean he's evil, though, just mean prejudiced towards a group based on his past experiences . I had several profs in college that I would describe the same way, but they weren't baby killers. Mike [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From karenwickersham at ameritech.net Thu Jan 30 18:33:35 2003 From: karenwickersham at ameritech.net (karywick ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 18:33:35 -0000 Subject: You're reading the wrong book In-Reply-To: <98PK5ZVPHFMHD7C742EDW1V98JIE.3e393900@tk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51133 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Torsten wrote: > If Rowling wanted us to perceive things in one way only, she would write that way. > She could do it, she could depict everything in radical black and white, not allowing the > shades of grey when it comes to Snape and Lupin and all the others, even Harry and > Dumbledore (they're both not perfect, they both don't always do the right thing). > > You're telling people to read without using their brains, to accept everything in it's pure > literal meaning. This works for fairytales told to four year olds, but I can't believe you > seriously expect mature readers to follow that approach. > > HP is no scientific text, it is fiction. There's never only one interpretation of a work of > fiction or poetry, every reader has his very own, and no interpretation is 'better', > '`worse' or more 'true' than any other. > I agree that there is never one interpretation for fiction but all of us adults have to remember that these books were never really written for us as the primary audience. Instead they are intended to be "young adult" ie (young teenager 11-15)literture. I'm sure JKR never thought they would be picked apart and critiqued as much as we do on this web site or as much as some other literary classics taught in colleges. As a former English teacher, I know that all young adult literature "leads" the reader more than adult literature does. So although as adults we all get many different interpretations from her books(and there is nothing wrong with that), maybe that was never her original intent? ;) From john at sunstoneonline.com Thu Jan 30 18:47:39 2003 From: john at sunstoneonline.com (John Hatch) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 11:47:39 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who's more out of line? (WAS: Snape and respect) References: Message-ID: <001001c2c890$107a6de0$0e00a8c0@Sunstone.sunstoneonline> No: HPFGUIDX 51134 Tome writes: For everyone who got so upset over Snape's treatment of Hermione: were you equally upset when Crouch/Moody turned Malfoy into a ferret and started bouncing him around? Were you as shocked and angry as McGonagall, or, like Ron, did you think it was farily amusing? I bet that some of us even thought that Malfoy *deserved* it, didn't we? I write: I did think Malfoy deserved it. You make a good point, and I don't have much of a response, except to say that it's this sort of thing that makes the HP universe fun for me. When I read the books, I find myself endeared to HRH - I can relate to them, I like them very much. No, they're not even close to perfect. They still do stupid things that teenagers will do, but overall I like them. I don't like Malfoy, not even a teeny bit. I'll confess my guilty pleasure right now - I don't want to see Malfoy redeemed in any way, shape, or form. I want to see him lose. A bit immature on my part? Probably, but again, these books are works of fiction - probably the most entertaining works of fiction I've ever read. So I allow myself the guilty pleasure of the double standard - it's ok when Crouch/Moody does this to Malfoy, but it's not ok when Snape does it to Hermione. If everyone were on equal footing and everyone were treated the same way at Hogwarts, part of the fun of reading the books would be lost on me. It's the range of emotions that I feel that make me love the books when I read them. My blood boils when Malfoy mistreats HRH and pulls his bigoted mudblood nonsense. I enjoy seeing him get what I feel like is coming to him when he gets blasted on the train, or when he otherwise gets in trouble. (A sidenote - regardless of what you think of HRH behavior, Malfoy actually jokes and revels in Cedric's death on the train - if this isn't an attempt by JKR to get us to dislike Malfoy, I don't know what is.) Again, my view of the books is oversimplified, but I allow myself a fairly one-dimensional view of the relationship between HRH and Malfoy because it helps me enjoy the books more. Snape, on the other hand, is a different story. I can't wait for OOTP to see what the deal with Snape is. John This message was checked by MailScan for WorkgroupMail. www.workgroupmail.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 18:59:44 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 10:59:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030130185944.98646.qmail@web20009.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51135 --- "pippin_999 " wrote: in Rowling, the situation at the end of > PS/SS is more > complicated than it appears to be. Harry's team is > not in last > place because of the points lost in saving > Norbert. It is in last > place because he "missed the last Quidditch > match--we were > steamrollered by Ravenclaw without you." > snip > If Harry had played against Ravenclaw, he could > have easily > won the 160 points needed to beat Slytherin, and > Slytherin > knows this. Still, they not only cling to their > false victory > (instead of offering to cede the Cup, as Cedric > offered to cede > the Tri-wizard Cup to Harry), they glory in it. > > That's why they are made to lose in such a > humiliating way. If > the seventh-year Slytherins did not see this, it can > only be > because they are already focused on "their powers > and their > pleasures" rather than "their rights and their > freedom" -- They > have already chosen their side, and it isn't > Dumbledore's. > > I suspect it's only us grown-ups who need to assure > ourselves > that Slytherin *really* deserved defeat. Children > know a moral > illustration when they see one, and are quite happy > to see the > good triumph and the bad punished. > > Pippin There is no proof that Gryffindor would've beat Ravenclaw by that amount. It's pure speculation. Slytherin is supposed to cede points (or victory) on the basis of what *might* have happened? Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From lupinesque at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 19:08:47 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 19:08:47 -0000 Subject: House points and Trio accomplishments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51136 I also think the last-minute usurpation of Slytherin is troubling, but not because the Trio didn't earn their points. Tom wrote: > I do not perceive the trio's success > on the "obstace course," as Maria referred to it, > to be any great accomplishment at all. In fact, > the first time that I read PS/SS, I thought that > the stone's protections were pretty lame, and that > anyone could have gotten through them. > > -The trio did zero to beat Fluffy, as not only did > Hagrid gave them the answer, but they didn't even > have to strum an out-of-tune guitar, 'cause Quirrell > had already taken care of it for them via enchanted > harp. Granted. > -Recognizing Devil's snare should be no big deal for > any experienced wizard, so no great shakes there. Is the question here whether Sprout designed a lame obstacle, or whether the Trio did something deserving of lots of points? Since it's the latter, the relevant point is that they *weren't* experienced wizards. They were first-year students, and they had to recognize it while it was actually trying to strangle them. Quick reflexes, and thinking, on Hermione's part. > -They didn't even have to really think to figure out > what key opened the door, since the wings on the > correct key were already broken by Quirrell when he > went through the first time. All Harry had to do > was use his eyes and a minor bit of logic. And catch it. "Not for nothing was Harry the youngest Seeker in a century"--which implies that it wasn't easy to catch at all. Ron's logic was also helpful--he narrowed down the search by observing that old keys match their locks. (He should be an interior decorator when he grows up.) It was after that that Harry noticed the "limping" key. > -The only serious skill involved, as far as I'm > concerned, was Ron's chess game. And even *that's* > ridiculous, that he could beat McGonagall, if chess > is indeed, a strength of hers. Unless JKR wants us > to somehow believe that at eleven years old, Ron > Weasley is a magical Bobby Fischer. Contrived it may be, but Ron is definitely supposed to be very good at chess. I don't see what's so contrived about it, even if he *is* a magical Bobby Fischer. Bobby Fischer exists, why not Ron Weasley?. But in any case, we have no idea whatsoever whether McGonagall is good at it or not. Also, it isn't just chess strategy that gets them across--it's Ron's willingness to die for the cause. You left out Hermione's logic. > -And, for all his bravery (give credit where credit > is due, I say,) Harry's victory was also pretty > lame. He didn't, after all, really *DO* anything, > unless you consider "being" to be action, which some > do, to be comprehensive in my coverage. Yep, I do. > Quirrell died > as a result of Harry's special protection, and > Voldemort *wasn't* that stong anyways. Harry basically > just stood there and held on. The book is about the courage of *character,* not just physical guts. Harry got the Stone when Quirrell couldn't because there was no selfishness in Harry's desire to find it. As for "just standing there and holding on," that's fairly impressive against a powerful wizard (or is that *two* powerful wizards?) who makes your head feel like it's splitting open when he's even looking at you, still less touching you. Dumbledore makes it clear that he, at least, thought Harry almost died. > And timing? I'm > 100% with Elkins and Maria here. *Humiliating* is not > the word for what Dumbledore did to the Slytherins. I'm with you there. Dumbledore should've awarded the points as soon as he learned what they did. Then Gryffindor would've been the champs going into the final feast--disappointing for Slytherin, but not humiliating. Tom wrote: > Doesn't anyone think it's ODD that Slytherin was on a > seven year winning streak and only started losing once > Harry 'n the gang showed up? I do. Extremely odd. And > if it doesn't point more to favoritism than the other > evidence, then I don't know what does. I'm confused. If Slytherin's win for 7 years wasn't a result of favoritism, why are Gryffindor's subsequent wins the result of favoritism? Harry has definitely turned his House's luck around, but that's to do with little things like being a great Seeker, saving the Stone, and rescuing Ginny from the Chamber of Secrets. He didn't get all those points for having a pretty face. Maria wrote: > And BTW there is *no* canon that Snape gives them > points for nothing. No, but there is canon that Snape deducts points from Gryffindor for nothing. Amy From heidit at netbox.com Thu Jan 30 19:10:38 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 14:10:38 -0500 Subject: Young Adult/Children's Literature In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <018f01c2c893$473ea230$2401010a@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 51137 > -----Original Message----- > From: karywick > I agree that there is never one interpretation for fiction but all of > us adults have to remember that these books were never really written > for us as the primary audience. Instead they are intended to > be "young adult" ie (young teenager 11-15)literture. No, they were not. I call your attention to Penny's wonderful FAQ about the Universal Appeal of Harry Potter, particularly the section on whether the books were written for children (http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/universal.html#Children). As it says, J.K. Rowling has said in numerous interviews that she did not write the books specifically for children or with any target group in mind. Rather, she says she initially envisioned and wrote the books as something she would enjoy reading. <> (http://www.yahooligans.com/content/chat/jkrowlingchat.html) > I'm sure JKR > never thought they would be picked apart and critiqued as much as we > do on this web site or as much as some other literary classics taught > in colleges. No, I'm sure she didn't, although we know that at least while writing OoTP, she's aware that there are nitpicking websites out there. She's said so in interviews > As a former English teacher, I know that all young adult > literature "leads" the reader more than adult literature does. So > although as adults we all get many different interpretations from her > books(and there is nothing wrong with that), maybe that was never her > original intent? ;) Actually, I think it's probably much closer to her original intent, at least by the time of her writing GoF. It's like Phillip Pullman said last year, "Adults have made the mistake in thinking that todays children's books deal with little things for little minds. They couldn't be farther from the truth." I'm now going to sit back and wait for Ebony to post on the "leads" issue... heidi From nithya_rachel at hotmail.com Thu Jan 30 19:29:47 2003 From: nithya_rachel at hotmail.com (errolowl ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 19:29:47 -0000 Subject: House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51138 Goodness Gracious! The end-of-term argument all over again! Melpomene: (About Slytherin) >>But they DID win it. Regardless of how, we don't know that. It's safe to assume that there were points awarded to Slyths by professors, staff and prefects who were NOT Snape. The fact is, they walked into the hall having WON THE CUP by THE SCHOOL RULES. Whether they'd won before and it was "someone else's turn" is MOOT.<< me: Yes, it is a moot point whether they had won it before. However, they had not yet WON the cup this year. They were merely leading (yes, by the school rules) the points race. It so happened that the trio won more points for their house before the winner of the cup was definitively announced. I agree that the timing of the announcement was lousy. But it was lousy because the room was already decorated and the Slytherins had prematurely congratulated themselves. My question here is -- Who decorates the hall for the feast? Did the Slytherins put up the house colors anticipating the victory? If so, it wasn't in the best taste to do it before the cup was announced. I get the idea that traditionally the hall would be instantly decorated with the winning house's colors the minute the winner is announced. If the slyths jumped the gun, then they just compounded their disappointment. They assumed they had an insurmountable lead and started celebrating too early. OTOH, If Dumbledore ever encouraged putting up your house colors before the start of the feast, and it traditionally started that way, what happened was humiliating and DD ought to have taken that into account. He shouldn't have waited for Harry to be present before he announced the points. And yes, Gryffindor DID win the cup. At the final total, they had more points. These points are awarded for all kinds of Triumphs ? mastering your schoolwork, setting a good example, winning at Quidditch, doing a good deed, overcoming your faults, mastering your fears, showing character, etc. The points awarded to HRH were perfectly valid under the rules. They earned it! For all we know, someone from slytherin could have won 60 points for mastering their cut-throat ambition and sharing a vital textbook with another student before an exam. Any documented show of character is valid to earn points. Snapesangel: >>What I object to is that Harry and Co. were the only people in a position to defeat Voldemort because.... 1 Harry has a special ability to know when he's around (his scar), 2 because they knew Hagrid who unwittingly gave the trio information (Hagrid felt close to Harry because he had delivered him to the Dursley's when he had been small)and 3 because Harry has the magical immunity given to him by his mother's sacrifice. This seems to go against the idea that house points are available to all because everyone has the same potential to be good (diligent, loyal, hard working, honest etc). It seems pointless to avoid awarding house points for purely academic achievements for the sake of inclusivity and then awarding them to Harry and the trio for something only they could possibly do. I'm not saying they deserved no recognition, because they were brave indeed, once they discovered it fell to them to defeat Voldie, but that awarding points and giving them the cup was not "playing by the rules".<<< me: No, I disagree. This does *not* go against the idea of everyone having the same potential to be good. Everyone has the opportunity to be Brave/ diligent/loyal. Harry just demonstrated his in this episode. A Slytherin could have proven his bravery/ loyalty/ etc in some other incident, and most probably *did*. Yes, this incident is very Harry-specific. Only HRH had the information that led them to the Quirrelmort confrontation. But they exhibited qualities like moral courage, Initiative, and self sacrifice - *these* were what the points were for. Imagine a hypothetical scene: If Draco were to save a fellow student from say, a Troll that got into the Slytherin Common room when only the two of them were there ? wouldn't you give him points for that? Yet he was the only one presented with *that particular set of circumstances* - the only one in a position to act. No one else could have had that opportunity. But if he displayed courage and self sacrifice there, it would be a valid inclusion on the points table. Remember, the entire house championship structure is set up to encourage character development. Everybody has the right, nay obligation, to improve themselves. That's what a good school is about, not mere academic learning. If you've shown progress on the development front, you've got yourself points. And everyone has the opportunity to show the stuff they are made of, in one way or another. Errol From lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com Thu Jan 30 19:30:23 2003 From: lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com (lindseyharrisst ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 19:30:23 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's employment policy (WAS: Characters You Hate) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51139 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Grey Wolf " wrote: > That is a very bad example of a bad decision of Dumbledore. What do you > think "no other applicant" means? If there was no one else to choose > from, there is no one else to choose from, and that's it. Me: I think you rather have the idea that Dumbledore is omnipotent. This is clearly not true. He makes mistakes, or fails to act, in several situations(or so we can infer, since bad things have happened during his tenure as a teacher and then as Headmaster.)He failed to prevent his pupils who were "borderline" from becoming death eaters and failed to stop Voldemort when he was still Tom Riddle. Recently he did n't see through Crouch/ Moody until the very end of gof. No other applicant just means that no one responded to the advertisment and made an offer to teach as a result of it, it does not mean no one could have been promoted internally or done cover lessons if they had been asked, given more incentives or had the gravity of the situation furhter impressed upon them. Many teachers I have known have filled in classes for absent collegues or a teacher who qualified to teach French but also speaks German has taken classes in the latter (with the syllabus to hand). No offence Greywolf, but I felt I had to defend myself and my choice of character. No disrespect, though I knew this would happen, hence the donning of my armour as I type! lol Snapesangel From snorth at ucla.edu Thu Jan 30 19:36:53 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 11:36:53 -0800 Subject: Dumbledore's employment policy (WAS: Characters You Hate) References: Message-ID: <005201c2c896$f1c36800$d3447442@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 51140 Grey Wolf: > Or are you suggesting that, since the only person that is willing to > teach the DADA lessons is Lockhart, Dumbledore should *force* someone > into the position? That is what you seem to be suggesting, after all: > to get someone who *does not* want the job and force him to teach it > anyway. > > The bottom line is that even if there is a qualified ghost out there > that could teach the lessons, or a teacher of Hogwarts had enough time > to teach DADA (which is false, no teacher has that much time, it's a > full-time job that requires 42 hours/week just for lessons, which comes > out to 8.4 hours a day), Dumbledore would never force anyone into a > position he doesn't want, because he's a decent person and a good > headmaster. Agreed. I was always under the impression that the hiring went something like this: -Dumbdore makes an announcement to the press that Hogwarts needs a new DADA teacher. -Lockhart, deciding that such prestigious position might make for a good book later on, decides to send his resum to Hogwarts, in book form. -Dumbledore, unaware that Lockhart is a fake like the rest of the WW, sees that Lockhart is self-absorbed, yet very talented. Having received no other applications, Dumbledore signs Lockhart to a 3-term contract. -Weeks (days, perhaps?) after the start of school, Dumbledore realizes that all of Lockhart's books must have been fiction, because he's clearly an idiot. However, seeing as how school has already started, and Lockhart is contracted for the full year, Dumbledore decides to let him stay. He'd have trouble finding a replacement, and he doesn't want to cancel DADA altogether. Now he's probably thinking, maybe the position /is/ jinxed. Okay, now that may not have been how it went, exactly, but I'd like to point out two things. First, Most of the WW thinks that Lockhart is a super wizard- he does have an Order of Merlin, after all. Dumbledore would have no reason to suspect the guy is actually an idiot without having spent some time around the guy. Second, Dumbledore's hands are pretty much tied- I don't think he had much of a choice, and once school starts, then what? -Scott (Defender of Dumbledore!) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 19:42:57 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 19:42:57 -0000 Subject: House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51141 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ssk7882 " wrote: > Ah, the Ever So Contentious PS/SS Point Award! > > Steve/Bboy (which do you prefer?) wrote a summary of the last-minute > points awarded to Gryffindor at the end of PS/SS, and then demanded: > > > And people think Dumbledore was being overly generous? > > Er, no. The problem that many people have cited in the past, at < any rate, with the infamous "Dissing the Slyths" scene is not their > feeling that the point award was unduly generous. ...edited... > > Rather, the objection is usually that the Trio and Neville earned > those points long in advance of the Leaving Feast. :-> > -end this part- bboy_mn: First there really wasn't that much time; the went into the chambers, Harry was in the hospital for three days, and the next day was the Leaving Feast. It's entirely possible that Dumbledore had a few things on his mind and a few things to do during that three days. For one, he had to contact Nicholas Flamel, and convince him to die. Also, in view of the magnitude of what they did Dumblefore may have felt that he wanted to acknowledge their effort in front of the whole school. Having said that, a tactfull and sensitive Headmaster would have awared the point the day Harry woke up, the day before the feast. The next point is that, we must view this not from Slytherin's perspective or Gryffindor's, but from the perspective of a reader. We do not ask which method is politically correct, but which method created the better read, the better story. Clearly the sudden thrilling victory at the last minute, especially combined with putting one over on Slytherin, made for a more thriling story, and had the story end on a very happy satisfying note for H/R/H and the whole Gryffindor house. So while I don't quite agree that the Slytherins were being 'Dis'd', I do agree that from a proper headmaster perspective, awarding the points in advance and then explaining them at the Leaving feast would have been better approach. From the perspective of writing a fun thriling story that encourages us to root for the hero and feel the thrill of his victory, JKR got it right. -bboy_mn-end this part- > Elkins continues > > Yes, but the point system is just completely > anyway, isn't it? > ...edited... > > Elkins > > who believes that it is the author's *choices,* not her intentions, > that make her works what they are bboy_mn: Well, I think I could explain the logic behind the Points and the House system, and while I could explain it, I don't see how I could ever justify it. The House system seems to be very promenent in British schools, and I assume in schools in other European countries. But it really does foster lifelong rivalries and hostilities that have not logical basis other that 'HE' was in 'THAT' house. I do get the point being made from a real world perspective, but from I literary perspective, the last minute vitory snatch from your foes, was the right choice for a thrilling happy end to the story. Just a few thought. bboy_mn From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 19:45:15 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 11:45:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030130194515.10086.qmail@web40506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51142 "pippin_999 " wrote: The House Championship is not about that modern concept "boosting self-esteem." The point is not to teach all the children to think of themselves as winners. It would be a remarkably wrong-headed way to do that, since only one quarter of the students can win. No, it is supposed to teach those old-fashioned virtues, sportsmanship and fair play. The fine art, that is, of letting the best man win. That's why they are made to lose in such a humiliating way. If the seventh-year Slytherins did not see this, it can only be because they are already focused on "their powers and their pleasures" rather than "their rights and their freedom" -- They have already chosen their side, and it isn't Dumbledore's. I suspect it's only us grown-ups who need to assure ourselves that Slytherin *really* deserved defeat. Children know a moral illustration when they see one, and are quite happy to see the good triumph and the bad punished. Me: But, Pippin, they're not athletes who only meet each other once a year during a competition and never talk to each other again. They are students who live and study *together* for the bigger part of the year. Humiliating one part of the student body has nothing to do with awarding the Cup to another part. Dumbledore must be aware of the dislike between Gryffindor and Slytherin, but his actions speak of the fact that he simply doesn't care about it - he increases the dislike even more, when he, IMO, should be trying to let them reconcile. Pippin: "Ravenclaw could have amassed enough points to clinch the House Championship for themselves. They don't, because it wouldn't be sporting to use Harry's absence to take advantage, even of Slytherin." How do you know that's what happened? And BTW, we don't know how many points you get for winning at Quidditch. "They don't, because it wouldn't be sporting to use Harry's absence to take advantage, even of Slytherin. Slytherin itself, alas, has no such compunction. That's why they are made to lose in such a humiliating way." So you're basically saying that because Slytherin wants to be the winner, they are humiliated? Isn't that kind of unfair? I was really sorry for Slytherin at the end of PS. Not only did they lose in such a "humiliating" way, but even more - *everybody* is incredibly happy to see Slytherin lose. I don't think anyone deserves that. Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Jan 30 19:50:41 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 19:50:41 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's employment policy (WAS: Characters You Hate) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51143 Snapesangel wrote: > I think you rather have the idea that Dumbledore is omnipotent. I do not, and I encourage you to read through the MD discussion to see that I have often made the point that Dumbledore is not only *not* omnipotent, but that he's not all knowing either (see bellow to see why it is relevant). > No other applicant just means that no one responded to the > advertisment and made an offer to teach as a result of it, it does > not mean no one could have been promoted internally or done cover > lessons if they had been asked, given more incentives or had the > gravity of the situation furhter impressed upon them. > > Snapesangel Your argument still makes little sense to me. I can tell you, because I've worked this out (and said so in my previous post of this thread) that no other teacher of Hogwarts has the time to teach DADA on its own. I supose that several could be hired, but that doesn't mean they would be any better than Lockhart. Snape is probably the one that could've done it best, but he's already teaching more than 40 hours a week of potions (45 min/class, 4 classes/week&group, 2 groups/year, 7 years), so he simply hasn't the time except ocasionally to teach DADA. And I doubt Binns or Sprout could cover DADA. McGonagall and Flitwick might, but their expertise lies in other fields. And now, we get to the juicy point - you acuse me of thinking that Dumbledore is omnipotent (heavens knows why), when it is you the one that gives Dumbledore all-knowing abilities. It seems obvious that what Lockhart wrote in his books is mostly real DADA stuff (with some reservations on the homorphous charm). As Ron puts it, "the things he *says* he's done". I don't think that Dumbledore would've been aquainted with Lockhart before he hired him, and thus there is no way Dumbledore could've known that Lockhart hadn't done all those things. And, since those things *were* done, they probably would be believable enough to think that Lockhart, beyond his showmanship, really knew about DADA. Dumbledore would've surely known that Lockhart was full of himself, of course (how could anyone not know?), but that is no reason *not* to hire someone. And no-one suspected of him before getting to know him. The Weasley's complain that they already know how to de-gnome the garden, not that Lockhart's method is useless, for example. The staff quickly realise he's an incompetent, but only because he makes a point of introducing himself to everyone and personally making an ass of himself. The fact is that, until that point, he might not have looked like the most brilliant DADA teacher imaginable, but certainly he was good enough, especially when no other choices were available. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com Thu Jan 30 19:55:11 2003 From: lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com (lindseyharrisst ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 19:55:11 -0000 Subject: House points and Dumbledore (a defence of my stance) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51144 > > If DD was going to > > award extra points (as has been said here countless times already) > > and change the tally he had AMPLE time to do it before the > > decorations went up. Me: I quite agree. It's a little like the name of one star being in the envelope on Oscar night and just as the announcement is made that they are the winner, someone comes over and says, "oh sorry, we've changed our minds, it's now A.N Other who has won". Leaving it that late is NOT justified. Morally speaking we had passed the point at which it was reasonable to voice objections and nominations should have closed because that is what the putting up of decorations in house colours means to a reasonable person, I think. I do not believe that anyone but Dumbledore did this, as it was him who changed the banners and I doubt anyone else would dare be that presumptious. Maybe no one else even knew the total amongst the pupils unitl they got into the hall. It'd be hard for any pupil, even one who cared enough to spend ages doing it, to tally up every point given to a fellow and to enquire of the other houses to establish a ranking system in advance. > Then again, Dumbledore is not only giving the Gryffindors the house > cup, he is making a point: that defeating Voldemort is something > everyone should be ready to do, and that is something that Dumbledore > will approve, and reward. Me: Exactly why I said it was n't fair! The other's can't! At least not in the same way Harry can do it personally. > > His behaviour was deplorable. It embarrassed > > Snape (no surprise there, we soon learn that's a favored hobby of > > his), ticked off the Slytherins Me:Yup. Both Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw were as happy as Gryffindor with the victory, > and indeed they celebrated the defeat of Slytherin as much as > Gryffindor celebrated its victory. They certainly didn't seem to have > received any sort of blow (except a positive one) when they were > clapping and shouting. Well, that is not evidence of their agreement that Gryffindor deserve it so much as a display of Shadenfreude. They were annoyed they had lost and so it made the pill slightly less bitter that they had lost to a friendly house not the Slytherins, who everyone hates. it was n't particulary a moral endorsement of Dumbledore's values and priorities. Also, one would care less about being changed from 3rd to 4th place than one would about being moved from the top spot because they would be used to the idea that they would get no prize or recognition that would go down in the school's history. Snapesangel xxx From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 19:57:04 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 19:57:04 -0000 Subject: House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: <20030130185944.98646.qmail@web20009.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51145 GREY WOLF WROTE (re: a harp got the trio past Fluffy): MEEEC! Movie contamination! The trio used the flute that Harry got from Hagrid for Christmas to get past Fluffy, because "he didn't feel like singing". I REPLY: Touche. GREY WOLF WROTE: The trick wasn't knowing which key was the one, but *catching* it. Harry only manages because he is "the youngest seeker in a century". This is not an obstacle of knowledge, but of ability - I REPLY: So, I suppose that we're to assume that Quirrell is *more* agile and better on a broom than Harry? Harry, after all, only had to catch the "limping" key, and if we're to assume that Quirrell damaged it, then we have to assume that he had to catch it in top form. And if we don't assume that Quirrell damaged it, then minimum he's equal to Harry on a broomstick. Doubtful. If Quirrell could do it, then it must not have been as hard as we think. In fact, the more I think about this, are we to assume that Quirrellmort is as strategic-minded as Ron, as logical as Hermione, *and* as agile as Harry on a broom? Even if he learned about Devil's Snare and Fluffy, you can't *learn* the answer to chess or flying. Maybe the logic puzzle, although I since that was Snape's protection, I doubt that he'd've given Quirrell the answer. GREY WOLF WROTE: For all we know, McGonagall just borrowed the chess pieces of a friend that hadn't trained them well. I REPLY: I'm not sure that I like that explanation, any more than I like the notion that Ron is a chess player capable of beating McGonagall. It lowers her stature, IMO, if that's the case. McGonagall doesn't at all seem like the type to choose anything but the best "trained" chess pieces for such an important task as this. GREY WOLF WROTE: You also say that Voldemort wasn't so powerful - that is not true. Quirrellmort was more than powerful enough to finish off a 11 year old. I REPLY: We've heard nothing to suggest that the bodiless Voldemort, or even the Voldemort on the back of Quirrell's head, had any sort of power at all. In fact, in GoF, Voldemort tells us he had no power but the ability to inhabit others while he was disembodied. And we know that the and the unicorn's blood is just *barely* keeping him alive. Also, Quirrell says, when Voldemort demands to see Harry. "Master, you are not strong enough." (PS/SS 293) So, the strong dark lord isn't strong enough to look at Harry? But he's strong enough to kill 'im? Sure, he *was* the most powerful dark lord in a century. He was powerful BEFORE. Now he's just a bodiless nothing (okay, he "sort-of" has a body.) Isn't that the point? It is *not* true that Quirrellmort could have finished off Harry - obviously, he tried, and wasn't able. GREY WOLF WROTE: Ron received points for *willingly sacrifying himself during the chess match*. That is what makes it the most amazing chess game in the history of Hogwarts. I REPLY: Unless we're working from different texts, that's not the case. "...for the best-played game of chess Hogwarts has seen in many years..." (PS/SS 305) No mention of self-sacrifice there. AMY Z WROTE: I'm confused. If Slytherin's win for 7 years wasn't a result of favoritism, why are Gryffindor's subsequent wins the result of favoritism? I REPLY: We've got no canon to suggest *why* Slytherin won seven years running. All we know is that they did. And it seems to me extremely unlikely that favoritism can extend for seven years to the same house. As I said, for a few, okay, I can buy it. Seven? No way. However, there is a compelling case to be made for Gryffindor's sudden reversal of fortune upon Harry's arrival, ie favoritism ala Dumbledore. Which is what we're debating now. AMY Z WROTE: Harry has definitely turned his House's luck around, but that's to do with little things like being a great Seeker, saving the Stone, and rescuing Ginny from the Chamber of Secrets. I REPLY: Oh, please don't get me going on the Chamber of Secrets. Harry did less in there than with Quirrellmort. Okay. So he was *loyal.* Fawkes did all the real work. Harry just used the sword and stabbed a book. And Harry would have died if Fawkes hadn't stuck around to heal him with his tears. I WRITE, RE: HERMIONE'S TASK: I did forget that. Pardons. But honestly, were any of you seriously unable to solve that puzzle? I tried, myself, and was done pretty quickly. Pretty clear cut, if you ask me. Incidentally, does anyone have any theories as to how the challenges all reset themselves? Ie the small potion bottle, the damaged chess set at checkmate? -Tom From lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com Thu Jan 30 20:03:44 2003 From: lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com (lindseyharrisst ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 20:03:44 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's employment policy (WAS: Characters You Hate) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51146 Greywolf On Lockhart: > The fact is that, until that point, he might not have looked like the > most brilliant DADA teacher imaginable, but certainly he was good > enough, especially when no other choices were available. He was not good enough! He was a disaster and would have been dangerous had he done any proper teaching after the first "practical lesson" incident. There seemed to be no checking of CVs either. I would expect anyone to go through rigrous checks about previous achievements etc. Hiring him was a professional eror on Dumbleodr's part - not because he's meant to be omnipotent but because he was ineffectual in his coss examination and testing of the candidate. A practical demonstration of spells, for example, would in all liklihood have flawed Lockhart (unless it was a memory charm, which he says he's good at, but that is unlikely in a DADA post interview, I'd have thought. I know I'm being quite hypothetical, but so are you! Sanpesangel From heidit at netbox.com Thu Jan 30 20:04:40 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:04:40 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <019601c2c89a$d544f460$2401010a@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 51147 > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Wall [mailto:thomasmwall at yahoo.com] > So, I suppose that we're to assume that Quirrell is > *more* agile and better on a broom than Harry? Harry, > after all, only had to catch the "limping" key, and > if we're to assume that Quirrell damaged it, then we > have to assume that he had to catch it in top form. > > And if we don't assume that Quirrell damaged it, then > minimum he's equal to Harry on a broomstick. Doubtful. > If Quirrell could do it, then it must not have been as > hard as we think. > > In fact, the more I think about this, are we to assume > that Quirrellmort is as strategic-minded as Ron, as > logical as Hermione, *and* as agile as Harry on a broom? > > Even if he learned about Devil's Snare and Fluffy, you > can't *learn* the answer to chess or flying. Maybe the > logic puzzle, although I since that was Snape's protection, > I doubt that he'd've given Quirrell the answer. You're acting like this was all Quirrell there. But as we know from his own words, he's never alone. He's with Voldemort. There's a strong implication that Voldemort is working magic through him in that final scene with Harry - and at the very least, Voldemort might be the one with the strategic ability to get through the chess game and the potions task. And knowing what we later learned about Accio, was it really necessary for a fully trained wizard to fly and *catch* the flying key? Or would flying and catching a key that had been immobolized with a tricky freezing charm, like what Hermione used to nab some pixies in their second year, have been easier? Or could Quirrelmort have summoned the key into his hand in the first place, right from the ground? The world will never know. heidi From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 20:09:10 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 20:09:10 -0000 Subject: House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51148 --- Tom wrote: > -The trio did zero to beat Fluffy, as not only did > Hagrid gave them the answer, but they didn't even > have to strum an out-of-tune guitar, 'cause Quirrell > had already taken care of it for them via enchanted > harp. I think someone's been infected by the movie. ;) In the *books*, Harry brought along the flute Hagrid gave him for Christmas and played it to get Fluffy to sleep. There was, IIRC, a discarded instrument of some sort nearby to show Quirrel had already gone through, but the Trio themselves did something active against it. > -Recognizing Devil's snare should be no big deal for > any experienced wizard, so no great shakes there. Yes, but these are three 11/12 year olds at the end of their first year of study. (Two of them, it should be noted, were Muggle-raised and thus knew *nothing* of magic a year before this.) We also don't know just how common Devil's Snare is -- it might be like many other things we learn in school, remember long enough to pass the exam, and then few adults ten years later could remember it. ;) Also it was very much a case of keeping one's head under pressure, which is not an easy trick! > -They didn't even have to really think to figure out > what key opened the door, since the wings on the > correct key were already broken by Quirrell when he > went through the first time. All Harry had to do > was use his eyes and a minor bit of logic. Actually, > I'm much more interested in figuring out how Quirrell > found that key. They DID use logic to figure it out. Ron is the one who determined that the key would be silver, old and rusty like the handle. That's a very good deduction I'm not sure *I* would've thought of. And then there was using Harry's Seeker skills to *catch* the key, which was really the point of the test! > -The only serious skill involved, as far as I'm > concerned, was Ron's chess game. And even *that's* > ridiculous, that he could beat McGonagall, if chess > is indeed, a strength of hers. Unless JKR wants us > to somehow believe that at eleven years old, Ron > Weasley is a magical Bobby Fischer. For one thing, we don't know that McGonagall has any particular skill at chess beyond the average. Her skill was at Transfiguration. We've never even *seen* her play chess. And for all we know, the point of the whole game was that the pieces would manuever the players so one would have to be willing to make a sacrifice for the mission. A test of character, not of skill. I note that you left out the potions test, another case of movie-taint. THIS is what Hermione recieved her points for, if you'll recall, not the Devil's Snare. As she pointed out, many wizards were hopeless at logic, so it was a strong accomplishment for the world she lived in to be able to solve the puzzle. Again, there's an element of sacrifice and courage involved in it -- several of the bottles were *poison*. You have to be pretty confident in your skills, and again under pressure! > -And, for all his bravery (give credit where credit > is due, I say,) Harry's victory was also pretty > lame. He didn't, after all, really *DO* anything, > unless you consider "being" to be action, which some > do, to be comprehensive in my coverage. Quirrell died > as a result of Harry's special protection, and > Voldemort *wasn't* that stong anyways. Harry basically > just stood there and held on. Go back and reread Harry's speech just before the Trio goes down in search of the Stone. He shows a bravery and maturity of character that most grown wizards don't equal. While most in his time are afraid to even call Voldemort by name, Harry went down to face him for the simple reason that it was the right thing to do. Harry was able to resist enormous temptation and coercion in the process of "just holding on", which is impressive for ANY wizard, much less an 11 year old boy! > And for *that*, Dumbledore awarded Gryffindor enough > points to win the House Cup? Hogwash. And timing? I'm > 100% with Elkins and Maria here. *Humiliating* is not > the word for what Dumbledore did to the Slytherins. I will agree that the way the points were distributed was very humiliating for the Slytherins, but I think Dumbledore had his reasons for it beyond sheer favoritism. The events were apparently fairly well known ("so naturally the whole school knows"), so Dumbledore was probably trying to show the school the qualities that would get them ahead in school and in life. Keeping a cool head under fire, being willing to sacrifice one's self for one's friends and a cause, standing up for what's right even when it's not the easy or safe thing to do, standing up to your friends when you think what they're doing is wrong. These aren't easy qualities to learn, but they ARE extremely commendable, and more importantly, extremely IMPORTANT in a world where Voldemort has returned! These children will be right in the middle of the next Voldemort War, and they will need these qualities just to *survive*. Dumbledore chose to make a bigger deal out of it than simply awarding points immediately after it happened, as if they'd just gotten a tough answer in class or won a Quidditch match, because these qualities ARE a big deal, they ARE hard to learn, and they ARE vastly important. Making that a centerpoint of the Feast is hardly deplorable. Andrea From snorth at ucla.edu Thu Jan 30 20:09:45 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 12:09:45 -0800 Subject: Who's more out of line? (WAS: Snape and respect) References: Message-ID: <006d01c2c89b$895f3780$d3447442@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 51149 Jo Serenadust: > Yes, I find that if a character is as amusing and entertaining as > Moody/Crouch, and the target is a despicable little bully, somehow > I'm going to be a lot less bothered when said bully is on the > receiving end. I even considered it a much-needed educational moment > for Draco. Some deep-seated personality flaw on my part, I guess, > but there it is :--). I totally agree. Look, the facts are Snape is cruel to Hermione for no real reason. Crouch!Moody is cruel to Draco because he was in violation of school rules, in a very serious manner. Draco /missed/ Harry. There's no telling what he had actually aimed at him; all we know is that Harry felt his cheek burn. To me, suggesting that Draco had intended great bodily harm upon Harry wouldn't be outrageous in the least. So, Crouch!Moody punishes him in a way that will make a difference. Look at it this way: If McGonagall had been there instead, and given Draco a detention, would Draco have learned anything? Sure- he would have learned that trying to curse other students is only punished by a slap on the wrist, and thus, he can curse anyone he wants, without any real fear. Having been punished by Crouch!Moody, Draco will seriously think twice before pointing his wand at another student. Here's an example of why Moody's punishment is effective, compared to giving a detention: In the scene involving Hermione's teeth, Harry has cursed another student, Goyle (or Crabbe, I forget, and they're basically the same person). He gets a detention for it, and house points are taken away. I'm not really even sure that he was punished for cursing Goyle; he may have been punished for his diatribe on Snape afterwards. So now, Harry will go on to curse the moron!trio once again. However, after Moody punishes Draco, Draco doesn't curse anyone throughout the rest of the book (I might have a selective memory, feel free to call me out on it if I'm wrong), and the mention of Moody's name causes him to look over his shoulder. Look, if you really think the punishment exceeded the crime, think of it as punishment for 3-4 for years of crimes that had probably gone unpunished. -Scott (who laughed so hard he fell off of the couch when Draco was turned into the amazing bouncing ferret. Not everyone can be an idealist, I guess) From Lynx412 at aol.com Thu Jan 30 20:13:20 2003 From: Lynx412 at aol.com (Lynx412 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:13:20 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House points and Dumbledore Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51150 In a message dated 1/30/03 2:58:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, thomasmwall at yahoo.com writes: > Incidentally, does anyone have any theories as to how the challenges all > reset themselves? Ie the small potion bottle, the damaged chess set at > checkmate? Actually, I believe they did not reset. The Trio replace one empty chess piece and the others step off the field. The troll (Quirrel's challenge) is still out, and the potion bottle holding the go forward potion has only enough for one swallow left. In fact, I wonder why QuirrelMort didn't just empty it onto the floor or something... Cheryl/Lynx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From G.Burkhard at gmx.de Thu Jan 30 18:07:37 2003 From: G.Burkhard at gmx.de (Bugfix) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 19:07:37 +0100 Subject: House points and Dumbledore References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51151 * "melclaros " schrieb/wrote: > If DD was going to award extra points (as has been said here > countless times already) and change the tally he had AMPLE time to do > it before the decorations went up. I'm afraid this discussion is pointless as it has also been said countless times that it was the earliest possibility to award the points while Harry wasn't in the hospital wing any more. And so on. > His behaviour was deplorable. It embarrassed Snape (no surprise > there, we soon learn that's a favored hobby of his), ticked off the > Slytherins Just... if they "WON THE CUP by THE SCHOOL RULES," why didn't Snape (or, let's say, a Slytherin prefect) complain? - bugfix -- 142 days until OotP is released [No text part of this message have been deleted] From Lynx412 at aol.com Thu Jan 30 20:22:02 2003 From: Lynx412 at aol.com (Lynx412 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:22:02 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Crouch's memory (was: Re: What is your all-time favorite ... Message-ID: <2b.375ef4b6.2b6ae36a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51152 In a message dated 1/30/03 5:43:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, greywolf1 at jazzfree.com writes: > Now, the real interesting question is: how does an absolute newbie, that has > been in the ministry for less than a year, manage to climb far enough to be > Crouch's personal assistant and substitute when he is unavailable (for > example, as Tournament judge)? I'm not sure about the position, but I do have a suggestion about why Percy was chosen as the representative. I think that was LV's doing. Especially if/since Crouch, Sr., remember Percy's real name. All he knew was that this newbie was just that, a newbie, overly flattered by Crouch's interest. He probably felt that 'Weatherby' would be the least dangerous person to be the link between Crouch and the tournament, especially with Crouch resisting the Imperious. After all, Percy did accept all Crouch's notes unquestioningly. Cheryl/Lynx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From manawydan at ntlworld.com Thu Jan 30 19:35:31 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 19:35:31 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] WW and empire References: <1043878169.10076.63962.m1@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <003e01c2c896$c09a9140$b64d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 51153 Errol: >Immigration into Britain also does not need to have the imperialist >impetus that fueled the muggle immigration patterns. How about the >dynamics of pure supply and demand? What percentage of the British >population is magical? With the problems of over population in the >rest of the world/ or greater proportions of the magically endowed, >immigration to a low density area where you could find more jobs is >quite feasible. This is just one (not very well thought out) possible >scenario, quite separate from the muggle world. Just because England >is crowded, doesn't mean the WW perceives it to be so. The I wonder if the real tension is not so much immigration into the WW in geographical terms but in terms of the "25% figure". I'm not sure whether the 25% muggle-born figure refers to wizard children with one or with two muggle parents - I suspect that culturally it would have to be with at least one muggle parent. I couldn't see WW cultural attitudes surviving an annual influx of 25% of people who have grown up steeped in muggle cultural attitudes - the degree of acculturation would be very rapid and there wouldn't I think be any difference between the two worlds at all. If by contrast we assume that a third of the 25% have two muggle parents (and the other two thirds are acquainted with WW culture by the time they reach Hogwarts age) then we are probably on safer ground. Societies can safely accommodate and benefit from "immigration" on that scale. And I suspect that a lot of the advances in magical creativity stem from the knowledge brought in by this means. But do "pureblood" wizards see it this way? At present in the UK we have a full blown "moral panic" about asylum seekers - whose numbers would be a lot less than 8% of the population. Is this kind of attitude, I wonder, what underlies the "pureblood" attitude of superiority? And how pure do you need to be to be a pureblood anyway? I don't think this has been specified anywhere. Regards Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From eric_and_lauri at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 20:17:50 2003 From: eric_and_lauri at yahoo.com (Lauri Bolland ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 20:17:50 -0000 Subject: A theory of Lupin's transformation In-Reply-To: <20030130012630.18884.qmail@web40504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51154 << I can't believe that *nothing* triggered Lupin's memory. >> Here's a thought from some lurkers. :) Remus just didn't care. He sits at his desk examining the map, feeling morose about his life and guilty over deceiving Dumbledore all this time. He has lived a cursed life, rejected and alienated, the last man standing for 12 years. Suddenly, he sees the events on the map and puts two-and-two together (we know he can do some "quick thinking"!) Rushing off to the shack, he is fully prepared to murder a man in front of three children. I get the impression he doesn't really care what happens next. I think just about everyone in the SS has hit an all-time low, and not surprisingly with all the dementors around. (Hermione and Crookshanks come out all right.) Nearly every man in the shack (Harry, Lupin, Sirius, Snape) INTENDS to commit murder at some time that evening. The only two men who don't try to kill anyone are Ron & Pettigrew. (I think they both have the chance - don't they? I'll have to review that chapter.) Lupin's still a mystery, tho we don't buy the James is Lupin thing for a variety of parent-oriented reasons.;D I'm glad we'll be seeing him again in book 5. DH and I really enjoy your conversation and observations on this list! eric_and_lauri From stbinch at actionsd.com Thu Jan 30 20:27:02 2003 From: stbinch at actionsd.com (Steve Binch) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 13:27:02 -0700 Subject: Dumbledore's employment policy References: <1043952821.3641.71885.m11@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <007901c2c89d$f2e24150$2101a8c0@ACTIONSTEEL.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 51155 Snapesangel xxx wrote: > 4. The things he seeems to do, or let happen that are explained simply > in cannon, but leave me thinking "eh?!" like employing Lockhart as > DADA teacher. I know there were n't any other applicants, but could > n't he have done it himself or given another teachers or teachers > extra duties. Maybe he could 've enlisted a ghost to teach the non > practical bits...Anyway, just strat seems negligent to me. > > Snapesangel xxx One thing that we know about Dumbledore is that he likes to give people the benefit of the doubt. Just because Lockhart failed to be a good DADA teacher, doesn't mean that Dumbledore failed in giving him a chance. From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 20:28:28 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 20:28:28 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's employment policy (WAS: Characters You Hate) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51156 GREY WOLF WRITES: The fact is that, until that point, he might not have looked like the most brilliant DADA teacher imaginable, but certainly he was good enough, especially when no other choices were available. SNAPESANGEL WRITES: He was not good enough! He was a disaster and would have been dangerous had he done any proper teaching after the first "practical lesson" incident. There seemed to be no checking of CVs either. I would expect anyone to go through rigrous checks about previous achievements etc. Hiring him was a professional eror on Dumbleodr's part - not because he's meant to be omnipotent but because he was ineffectual in his coss examination and testing of the candidate. I REPLY: I agree that Dumbledore wasn't thorough enough. I often thought to myself that, with one requested charm Dumbledore could have disqualified Lockhart - provided it wasn't a memory charm. And there was a better choice - Dumbledore himself. When I was in school, the Headmaster had to fill in for teachers more than once because there was no substitute available. And even if it taxed Dumbledore's time a little, it would have been a better choice than having that idiot teaching such an important class - for all intents and purposes that ENTIRE year of DADA was wasted. -Tom From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 30 20:37:50 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 20:37:50 -0000 Subject: Harry has TWO parents WAS Re: A midget in glasses, In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51157 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lavaluvn " wrote: > I think Harry has yet to hit his growth spurt and when he does, > we will know for sure ("Harry seemed to have shot up over the > summer and now towered over Hermione..."). We should expect it > eventually; as you say, his father was also tall. > > My 2 cents, > Dr.Cheryl Why should we expect it? Harry looks like his father in the face, but he has his mother's eyes [numerous references]. His father was tall, but his mother's height was not described. Harry may be short for his age because of not having had enough food from the Dursley's. However, the exact quote is 'The Dursley's had never exactly starved Harry, but he'd never been allowed to eat as much as he liked.'[ PS/SS p. 92 Ch. 7 UK paperback] This implies Harry has always had enough to eat; just no second helpings. It's quite likely that Harry is small for his age because he takes after his mother in height. Interestingly, in the Mirror of Erised Chapter [12, PS/SS] JKR doesn't mention his mother's height. She mentions hair colour, eye colour, and the fact Lily was pretty; but not height. Petunia, by the way, is described as 'thin' (like Harry) in PS/SS. Harry is not just his father's son. This is a misleading impression; possibly deliberate. It's given by the concentration of the first three books on Harry's dead *father*. Subtle indications suggest that Lily may have been the more dominant partner. Hagrid and McGonagall both refer to Lily and James as - well, as 'Lily and James'. [Ch 1 and Ch 4 in PS/SS]. In the UK people tend to put the male name *first* in a partnership (James and Lily) *unless* the female name is the person they naturally think of first. Other indications; Snape notoriously finds it upsetting that Harry looks like James. But there's an interesting counterpoint to that. Dumbledore seems to go out of his way in PoA Ch.22 [p.312 UK hardback] to point out to Harry (at a moment when he's telling him how like his father he is) that Harry is not *exactly* like his father. He has his mother's eyes. **Other ways in which Harry is not James Potter Jr** Harry plays Quidditch. Just like his father, right? Wrong. In interview http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm JKR has James Potter as being a Chaser, not a Seeker [the movie changed this]. Harry has the invisibility cloak, just like his father, right? Wrong. James used it 'mainly for sneaking off to the kitchens to steal food'. Even with that big hint from Dumbledore, Harry never sneaks off to the kitchens until GoF (three years later)and then it's to meet Dobby. In PoA Lupin remarks that James 'would have been highly disappointed if his son had never found any of the secret passages out of the castle'. [p310, Ch22]. If it hadn't been for the Weasley twins, James would have been highly disappointed, because until this point Harry never *looked* or thought of looking for the passages. Harry is not like his father in an extremely important way. The Marauder's map [PoA] suggests strongly that its inventors made mischief for the fun of it. Its codewords are 'I solemnly swear I am up to no good', and 'mischief managed'. When Snape tries to break its secrets, it insults him. Harry really isn't his father's sort of prankster. He plays games (duelling with fake wands with Ron in GoF), but any practical jokes usually have a serious purpose behind them. The firework in the cauldron in CoS [Ch.11, p140 UK paperback] is to create a diversion, not just to enjoy the chaos. Snape in PoA Ch. 14 p.209 notoriously points out two areas where he thinks Harry does resemble his father - his arrogance, and his disregard for the rules. Both of these are true comments; Harry does disregard the rules and he can be arrogant. Harry's disregard of rules can be for trivial reasons (Hogsmead, PoA) as well as more serious reasons (saving the Stone, PS/SS). Harry's arrogance? More difficult, because in many ways Harry is naturally modest. But he sticks to his opinion that the unlikable Snape is the one after the Stone despite Hermione and Hagrid's disagreement[PS/SS]. He decides he'll be perfectly safe at Hogsmead despite having been told a dangerous murderer is trying to find him [PoA]. Again, I think we are being subtly misdirected here by the author. She chooses to have these faults presented by Snape, an unsympathetic character. She downgrades as much as possible the nature of James's rulebreaking by having Sirius Black present Snape as 'sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to... hoping he could get us expelled' [PoA Ch. 18, p. 261]. This quite deliberately brings to mind Snape's treatment of Harry; raising the expectation that James, like Harry, was justified in his breaking of rules. Similarly with the arrogance; Harry is naturally modest and rarely arrogant. His reply to Snape "My dad didn't *strut*. And nor do I." [PoA Ch. 14 p.209] encourages the reader to compare James with Harry. To see James's arrogance as a very minor fault. But... James's rule breaking wasn't minor, or justifiable. James and the MWPP encouraged Lupin to escape from the secure isolation that was needed to protect others. They not only got Lupin out of the Shack, in a state where he had no control over himself, but they took him INTO HOGSMEAD AND THE SCHOOL GROUNDS. [PoA Ch. p.260 Ch.18]. They took him into places where there were other human beings, human beings that he would (in werewolf state) have wanted to kill. And James's arrogance? Again, JKR chooses to have the *big* result of James's arrogance presented by Snape at his most unsympathetic. "You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken..." [PoA Ch.19 p.265]. James, being told that Dumbledore suspected a traitor, insisted that Sirius Black would never betray him. James, having been told that Dumbledore was so worried he himself was willing to act as Secret Keeper, agreed to let the Secret Keeper be Peter Pettigrew. James trusted his own judgement so highly that he chose to trust his friend Peter Pettigrew over Albus Dumbledore. And so James and Lily are dead. Harry is an orphan. Because James Potter was to arrogant to believe he might possibly make a mistake. To arrogant to believe, in an age where no one knew who to trust (See Sirius's description of the times in Ch. 27 GoF, p. 457) that *his* friends could possibly betray *him*. I suspect, that while Harry *looks* like James, and likes to think of himself as like James, inside he is much more like his mother. Did James save Snape by his own choice? Lupin describes him as having 'heard what Sirius had done' [PoA Ch. 18 p.261] which implies he didn't hear it directly from Sirius. Was Lily so shocked at what Sirius had done that James suddenly found himself seeing their games with Lupin in a completely different light? Realising for the first time that somebody could get *killed*? Are we going to find out that in the Lily/James partnership, it was *Lily* who was the pure moral core? And which part of his parents will be dominant in Harry? His father's 'I know best' style of rulebreaking, as Snape fears? His mother's willingness to die for someone else? Well, we have a clue. Harry has his mother's eyes. And the eyes, traditionally, are seen as the windows of the soul. Pip!Squeak From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Jan 30 20:37:57 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 20:37:57 -0000 Subject: House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51158 Tom Wall wrote: > GREY WOLF WROTE: > The trick wasn't knowing which key was the one, > but *catching* it. Harry only manages because he > is "the youngest seeker in a century". This is not > an obstacle of knowledge, but of ability - > > I REPLY: > So, I suppose that we're to assume that Quirrell is > *more* agile and better on a broom than Harry? Harry, > after all, only had to catch the "limping" key, and > if we're to assume that Quirrell damaged it, then we > have to assume that he had to catch it in top form. > > And if we don't assume that Quirrell damaged it, then > minimum he's equal to Harry on a broomstick. Doubtful. > If Quirrell could do it, then it must not have been as > hard as we think. > > In fact, the more I think about this, are we to assume > that Quirrellmort is as strategic-minded as Ron, as > logical as Hermione, *and* as agile as Harry on a broom? > > Even if he learned about Devil's Snare and Fluffy, you > can't *learn* the answer to chess or flying. Maybe the > logic puzzle, although I since that was Snape's protection, > I doubt that he'd've given Quirrell the answer. I don't assume anything about Quirrels abilities. I assume that he cheated all the way. If he learned from the rest the puzzles like he did from Hagrid, he could've gone prepared to use the back door through all the puzzles (i.e. the plant and the dog are easy, he could carry the correct potion with him, a good broom or simply a handy dark art accio charm, and knew how to bypass the chess puzzle, just like Dumbledore did). That said, we don't know of the abilities of Quirrell on a broom, and Voldemort strikes me as a good chess player - he's got the sort of ualities that certainly help (ruthlessness, willingness to make necesary sacrifices, planning abilities and forward vision). Etc. > GREY WOLF WROTE: > For all we know, McGonagall just borrowed the chess > pieces of a friend that hadn't trained them well. > > I REPLY: > I'm not sure that I like that explanation, any more > than I like the notion that Ron is a chess player > capable of beating McGonagall. It lowers her stature, IMO, > if that's the case. McGonagall doesn't at all seem > like the type to choose anything but the best "trained" > chess pieces for such an important task as this. Then it is your problem, but I can accept that Ron is a good enough chess player. It is not contrived, unless you consider the whole books in that light (a love spell that saves the child from certain death? Harry a natural on a broom? Hermione being the best student of the year?). Winning a single chess game is not that difficult, especially when you practise as much as Ron does. And of course, we don't know that McGonagall is all that good at chess. She's good as tranfiguration, which is why she used the chess challenge, but that's it. Anything else is pure speculation, and my guess is as good as yours (unlike our guess about Ron's chess abilities, which we know from canon that he is very good). > GREY WOLF WROTE: > You also say that Voldemort wasn't so powerful - that > is not true. Quirrellmort was more than powerful enough > to finish off a 11 year old. > > I REPLY: > We've heard nothing to suggest that the bodiless > Voldemort, or even the Voldemort on the back of > Quirrell's head, had any sort of power at all. In fact, > in GoF, Voldemort tells us he had no power but the > ability to inhabit others while he was disembodied. > And we know that the and the unicorn's blood is just > *barely* keeping him alive. Also, Quirrell says, when Voldemort > demands to see Harry. > > "Master, you are not strong enough." (PS/SS 293) And yet you're still missing the point. Read my words again: I didn't say that Voldemort was powerful enough, I said *Quirrelmort* was powerful enough. Quirrell is a DADA teacher that has access to all the knowledge of Voldemort. Quirrellmort is certainly powerful enough to finish a Harry without love protection. > So, the strong dark lord isn't strong enough to look > at Harry? But he's strong enough to kill 'im? > > Sure, he *was* the most powerful dark lord in a > century. He was powerful BEFORE. Now he's just a > bodiless nothing (okay, he "sort-of" has a body.) > Isn't that the point? It is *not* true that > Quirrellmort could have finished off Harry - > obviously, he tried, and wasn't able. Quirrellmort could've tried another approach instead of going hand-to-hand with Harry. A handy fieball, if wizards are capable of using them, could finish Harry off. Or Imperius followed by Cruciatus, like in the GG. Or by levitating a piece of the floor and smashing repeatedly against Harry. Or levitating Harry himself (or his clothing) and dropping him. Repeatedly. With extreme prejudice, too. (::grin::). All those things are well within Quirrellmorts power, I am sure, and many more spells we don't know about yet. Quirrellmort made a tactical bluder by touching Harry, but at that point they couldn't know that touching Harry would trigger the protection. When you get down to it, the protection might have disapeared after resisting the AK, or in the 11 years that have passed, or is only effective against AKs, so Quirrellmort's decission wasn't that bad - but proved to be the incorrect one. Which doesn't mean *at all* that he didn't have the power to finish off the brat. > GREY WOLF WROTE: > Ron received points for *willingly sacrifying > himself during the chess match*. That is what > makes it the most amazing chess game in the history > of Hogwarts. > > I REPLY: > Unless we're working from different texts, that's not the case. > > "...for the best-played game of chess Hogwarts has seen in many > years..." (PS/SS 305) > > No mention of self-sacrifice there. We are reading the same text, but we are interpreting differently. The chess match that Ron played wasn't particularly interesting. From the ending position, it seems that he had lost both horses and the queen, at the very least. Since a bishop was used for check mate, I'd have to say that one of the towers was also missing (although I'm not really into chess, so I might be wrong in all these points). From the first moment, the chess game didn't look particularly matched nor an impresive easy victory. What do I read, then? A good played chess game is one were the most important qualities of a chess player are used to the fullest potential. My own problem in chess is that I miss one that is possibly the most important, a quality that Ron knew well enough: the need for making necessary sacrifices for the greater good. The fact that the sacrifice was himself is what makes Ron the best player of chess in Hogwarts history. I don't think many people would be willing to do that. (And, as always, I'm repeating myself). > I WRITE, RE: HERMIONE'S TASK: > I did forget that. Pardons. But honestly, were any > of you seriously unable to solve that puzzle? I > tried, myself, and was done pretty quickly. Pretty > clear cut, if you ask me. What are you talking about? AFAIK, the puzzle is unsolvable as described in the book, so you cannot have solved it, quickly or otherwise. You need the size of the bottles to solve it, and we don't have that information in the book. Depending on which bottles were the biggest and the smallest one and where they were, the puzzle might have gone from extremelly easy to absolutely impossible. I know a LOON once worked out the positions of the bottles, but I can't remember where it is. Possibly the Lexicon, though, if you want to look it up. And of course, the point is that we are muggles and are used to thinking logically, and thus have the ability to solve the puzzle, while we have been told that many wizards simply cannot. And that is a canon point. > Incidentally, does anyone have any theories as to how > the challenges all reset themselves? Ie the small potion > bottle, the damaged chess set at checkmate? > > -Tom As I said, I think that Quirrellmort cheated to pass the challenges quickly (just like Dumbledore does later on), but at any rate there are several theories going around. You can check the past posts, if you want (::cruel chuckle::). IIRC, one said that there was only two sips in the bottle, and another that it refills itself everytime someone enters the room. The other haven't really been examined to my knowledge, but I hope that wizzard chess can repair itself, or there is no way Ron could've trained his pieces if he had to substitute half of them after every game. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Jan 30 20:51:50 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 12:51:50 -0800 Subject: Ferret!Draco and other animal issues Message-ID: <17586471626.20030130125150@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 51159 Hi, I've been reading along about people's opinions concerning Draco's punishment and it reminded me of a conversation with my 11 year old daughter, after she read this scene. She doesn't like Draco at all, but was outraged at this punishment. Reason? She loves all animals and thought it was not right to teach Draco a lesson while he was transfigured into a ferret. She thought he should have been punished as real Draco, and she thought Fake!Moody was going a bit far, no matter what. She also hated that Scabbers turned out to be Peter, because she loved him in the previous books, doesn't like the scenes where animals get turned into inanimate object, or objects into animals, and is probably one of the few who felt sorry for the basilisk. She wondered why Harry didn't try to talk to it at all and would have preferred it to stay alive and be redeemed. Maybe become Harry's friend and be a vegetarian ;) In addition to the three main character, she's very worried about the future of Hedwig, Pig, Crookshanks, Trevor and probably a few more animals I can't remember atm. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From melclaros at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 21:00:22 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 21:00:22 -0000 Subject: House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51160 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bugfix wrote: > > > Just... if they "WON THE CUP by THE SCHOOL RULES," why didn't Snape > (or, let's say, a Slytherin prefect) complain? > > - bugfix Of course, we'll never know for sure, but I'd imagine plenty of Slytherins DID indeed complain. (Pointlessly, just like when my 12 year old gets upset with a ref. at a soccer game: "Contest it! Coach, why don't you contest it?" he cries.) Did Snape complain? (Can't you DO something, Professor?) Possibly but if so he did it in private and in person to DD. I tend to doubt it. If the RULES say the Headmaster can do what DD did then I'd expect Snape would follow the rules. He wouldn't LIKE it, he'd stew a bit but I expect he'd probably roll his eyes in disgust and think it "par for the course". As an added observation--It's been pointed out that Slytherin had an ubroken 7 year winning streak up until that evening. I (personally) find it HIGHLY unlikely that Severus has been head of Slytherin for 7 years when "we" enter the story. He's very young for a Head of House in PS/SS as it is (36?). There's nothing in canon (see how careful I'm being, Grey Wolf? Hold onto that "helpful" yellow card now) that says Severus Snape has been Housemaster for all those seven years. It's unlikely that HIS Personal favoritism has been a major factor in all those Slytherin wins. Melpomene From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Jan 30 21:30:00 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 21:30:00 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's employment policy (WAS: Characters You Hate) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51161 I wrote: > The fact is that, until that point, he might not have looked like the > most brilliant DADA teacher imaginable, but certainly he was good > enough, especially when no other choices were available. > > SNAPESANGEL WRITES: > He was not good enough! He was a disaster and would have been > dangerous had he done any proper teaching after the first "practical > lesson" incident. There seemed to be no checking of CVs either. I > would expect anyone to go through rigrous checks about previous > achievements etc. Hiring him was a professional eror on Dumbleodr's > part - not because he's meant to be omnipotent but because he was > ineffectual in his coss examination and testing of the candidate. You are assuming lots of things about how employment works in Hogwarts and in the WW. CVs are a relatively modern invention (and nothing that Lockhart couldn't fake, anyway), and you cannot know that they exist at all in the WW - and, as I say, even if they do, Lockhart would have an easy time getting himself hold of a glowing one (in more than one sense ). Also, you sound like someone from Human Resources. Dumbledore could've just put an advertisement, and hired Lockhart when he was the only one available. His reputation was, at the time, good enough to pass him by. Notice that, after that, Dumbledore learnt from his mistake and hired people he personally *knows* to be good DADA teachers, even if they are considered dangerous by the rest of the society. > Tom ads: > I agree that Dumbledore wasn't thorough enough. I often thought to > myself that, with one requested charm Dumbledore could have > disqualified Lockhart - provided it wasn't a memory charm. > > And there was a better choice - Dumbledore himself. When I was in > school, the Headmaster had to fill in for teachers more than once > because there was no substitute available. > > And even if it taxed Dumbledore's time a little, it would have been a > better choice than having that idiot teaching such an important > class - for all intents and purposes that ENTIRE year of DADA was > wasted. > > -Tom I am not saying that Dumbledore, in hindsight, Lockhart's adquisition was a bad one. I'm only saying that it was Dumbledore's only option, and that there was nothing he could do about it, once the school had started, to change him. After all, once the school had started there is no time to hire another (especially when *there is no other*). And certainly, he didn't look that bad when hiring him - the things he writes in the books are impresive enough. Besides, Dumbledore is a busy man (preventing the apocalypse and colapse of civilization as we know it tends to curfew one's free time, for some reason ), so I don't think him teaching DADA is an option (I insist, is a full time job, 42 hours a week). What is my point, then? Yes, Lockhart wasn't much good, but you cannot blame Dumbledore for hiring him. We don't know (and I doubt) that you need to pass an eam to teach at Hogwarts (especially for DADA. What would you do, throw him an Imperious and see if he can shake it?). Lockhart probably could pass a theorical exam well enough (he *had* to learn something in writting all those things he didn't do). And Dumbledore had no way of knowing he would be that useless. And, As I've repeated to exhaustion, it's not as if he had any other choice. Your suggestions all fail to address the major point: you need someone with full dedication, since DADA is a full time job, someone who knows about DADA more than Lockhart (who knows all the theory, or at least his books do) and above all someone who is *willing* to teach it. And Dumbledore didn't have that. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, who has just realised he must be about to break his personal posting record From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 21:30:22 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 21:30:22 -0000 Subject: House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51162 GREY WOLF WROTE: I don't assume anything about Quirrels abilities. I assume that he cheated all the way. I REPLY: Fair enough. Your ideas about how he cheated were excellent, re: back door! Heidi also had some creative thoughts too. Accio? Didn't cross my mind at all. And bypassing the chessboard, you know, it never occurred to me that somehow Dumbledore had to do that? ;-) GREY WOLF WROTE: Then it is your problem, but I can accept that Ron is a good enough chess player. It is not contrived, unless you consider the whole books in that light (a love spell that saves the child from certain death? Harry a natural on a broom? Hermione being the best student of the year?). I REPLY: Considering JKR to have taken the "deus ex machina" (ie Fawkes is the best example of this) approach says nothing about my appreciation for the books. Obviously I appreciate the books immensely, however contrived the plot devices might be (and they *are* contrived in the first two books.) Otherwise I wouldn't be here posting. What I do appreciate is that as the books progress, the cheap plot devices get more tricky, and rely less on convenience, and more on actual dilemmas and real problems... more real storytelling in PoA and GoF, although there's still the contrivances. (i.e. Harry's own patronus saves him in PoA) There's no canon for McGonagall's chess skills, correct. But whatever the case, I think it's too easy, if an eleven year old can get through. GREY WOLF WROTE: And yet you're still missing the point. Read my words again: I didn't say that Voldemort was powerful enough, I said *Quirrelmort* was powerful enough. I REPLY: No point to miss. There is zero canon to support your assumptions about Quirrellmort's abilities. I'm asking a legitimate question. I WROTE: Unless we're working from different texts, that's not the case. "...for the best-played game of chess Hogwarts has seen in many years..." (PS/SS 305) No mention of self-sacrifice there. GREY WOLF WROTE: We are reading the same text, but we are interpreting differently. I REPLY: I'm not interpreting anything. That's verbatim. No mention of self- sacrifice. I appreciate your metaphor for the value of pieces and self-sacrifice in the interest of the greater good, I do, but they're all unrelated. Dumbledore gave Ron the points for a well played game of chess. Nothing more. I contest that an eleven year old could have played chess that well. It seemed too easy. > I WRITE, RE: HERMIONE'S TASK: > I did forget that. Pardons. But honestly, were any > of you seriously unable to solve that puzzle? I > tried, myself, and was done pretty quickly. Pretty > clear cut, if you ask me. What are you talking about? AFAIK, the puzzle is unsolvable as described in the book, so you cannot have solved it, quickly or otherwise. I REPLY: Alright, you're mostly right. You can get down to two bottles with a scrap of paper and a pen to draw yourself a diagram. And one of those two, depending on the size, is the right bottle to advance. If you could see the sizes, you'd be able to easily select it. Since you can't, you're technically right - I couldn't tell you exactly which bottle to pick. But if you could see the sizes, it's a super easy puzzle. No lateral thinking involved at all. You know, was I the only one who thought that the protections for the stone were too simplistic? I'm encountering way more resistance on that comment than I thought I would. It seemed completely obvious to me that the protections were too simplistic. That was my first objection to PS/SS, was that if three eleven year olds could get through, then the stone must not have been well protected. Sans, of course, the Mirror of Erised, which, IMHO, *was* a brilliant way to keep it safe. -Tom From urbana at charter.net Thu Jan 30 21:33:49 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 21:33:49 -0000 Subject: FILK: Ford Anglia Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51163 Dedicated to Steve bboy_mn, whose mention of "the village PEEBLE" on the OT-Chatter list put this damn idea into my head: FORD ANGLIA (to the tune of YMCA by the Village People) THE SCENE - CoS -- Harry and Ron finally burst through Platform 9 3/4 to discover that the Hogwarts Express just left. Now how will they get to Hogwarts in time for the Sorting Ceremony? RON Harry, why don't we take the car, I mean, Harry, it is faster by far. Since we can't go on the Hogwarts Express, then let's Just - pinch -Dad's - An-gli-a HARRY Gee, Ron, didn't know you could drive! RON I've been watching my big bros since I'm five Are you with me? Are you game for the ride? Then let's get - down - to - it -Har-ry . . . . . (CHORUS- HARRY and RON do a little jig with matching hand motions) RON It's time to fly in a Ford Anglia We'll go up high in a Ford Anglia It's more comfortable than a Nimbus, true, And the seating is better for two HARRY We're gonna fly in a Ford Anglia Hope we don't die in a Ford Anglia But since you're my friend, I'll just have to trust You won't manage to kill both of us RON Wonder where the train disappeared If this map's right, Hogwarts is getting near See that village? It's called Peebles, in fact. Let's just fol-low these old train tracks HARRY Uh oh, do you hear that big noise? What's that rumbling? Did we make a bad choice? Pull us up, Ron - get us out of harm's way Or there'll be nowt left of us today . . . . BOTH (grimacing) Why did we fly in this Ford Anglia? We're gonna die in this Ford Anglia! HARRY Now I'm hanging on by my fingernails This will sure be one helluva tale RON Let's pull you into this Ford Anglia HARRY Boy am I glad that I'm back in the car RON But watch out below! It's the Whomping Willow! Now it's tossing us to and fro (HARRY and RON bounce around the car. Doors fly open. HARRY and RON fly out. FORD ANGLIA appears crushed. WHOMPING WILLOW makes a satisfied, grinding noise, like a belch.) **** Anne U (I think I'm starting to get the hang of this :-) From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jan 30 21:35:52 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 21:35:52 -0000 Subject: House points and Dumbledore (Re: Snape and respect) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51164 Tom: >>I'm not sure that that's how Quidditch points work - i.e. that they translate exactly to the House Cup - and that means I'm dubious that Harry could have easily won that final 160 points in a Quidditch game. In fact, if anyone has any canon on this, I'd appreciate it, since I can't find anything, anywhere, to indicate exactly how winning the Hogwarts "Quidditch Cup" relates to winning the Hogwarts "House Cup."<< I can't tell if the relationship was exact, but it can be established that Gryffindor was in reach of the lead before Harry went after the Stone, and that the Quidditch Cup point margin has a bearing on the House Cup. PS/SS ch. 16 McGonagall: "If I hear you've come anywhere near here again, I'll take another fifty points from Gryffindor! Yes, Weasley, from my own house!" ibid Harry: "Losing points doesn't matter any more, can't you see? Do you think he'll leave you and your families alone if Gryffindor win the House Cup?" PS/SS ch. 17 " The points are all in and Slytherin won, of course--you missed the last Quidditch match, we were steamrollered by Ravenclaw without you--" PoA ch 22. "Gryffindor House, meanwhile, thanks largely to their spectacular performance in the Quidditch Cup, had won the House Championship for the third year running." Eileen: >>>Do you really think Gryffindor played without a seeker? Why would they do this? Surely, someone played seeker. Just not someone who was properly trained. Should I ask why Wood didn't see fit to train a proper reserve seeker? <<< I"ve never heard that theory before. I don't think it holds up. Wood is desperate, not cliquish when he accepts Harry for the team. He doesn't test Harry's abilities before taking him on, as he would if there were any competition. The position of Seeker in particular is highly dangerous, it requires the purchase of a very expensive piece of specialized sports equipment and Quidditch in general takes a lot of time that could be devoted to other pursuits, like studying. I'm sure *my* parents wouldn't have let me play. Eileen: >>(As does the fact that all these chasers come from one year and that Lee Jordan referred to Alicia Spinnet as a good friend of Wood's when introducing her in PS/SS.)<< Yellow flag! My copies of PS and SS both say that Alicia Spinnet is a good *find* of Oliver Wood's. And where is the canon that all the Chasers are in the same year? Eileen: >>Really, this is a game. Why should anyone be at fault for Harry not being about to win, any more than the team who wins the Stanley Cup should feel bad about the losing team's star player being injured and out of the line-up? Where does morality come into this story?<< PoA ch. 9: "Diggory got the Snitch," said George. "Just after you fell. He didn't realize what had happened. When he looked back and saw you on the ground, he tried to call it off. Wanted a rematch. But they won fair and square..." GoF ch. 6 [Cedric speaking] "Harry fell off his broom, Dad," he muttered. "I told you...it was an accident..." "Yes, but *you* didn't fall off, did you?" roared Amos genially, slapping his son on the back."Always modest, our Ced, always the gentleman...but the best man won, I'm sure Harry'd say the same, wouldn't you, eh?..." And consider the much-too-long-to-quote Alphonse and Gaston routine in GoF where Cedric and Harry argue over who should take the Cup. The issue for both of them is not who should win according to The Rules, but which of them is "the best man." The House Championship is supposed to teach witches and wizards to uphold the "noble history" of their houses. Part of that, it seems, is not using an advantage you didn't earn. The implication is clear that if Cedric had known that Harry had fallen, he wouldn't have and *shouldn't have* caught the Snitch. The Slytherins show bad form by a) not offering to cede the cup and b) gloating over their lead. Pippin From susannahlm at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 21:57:42 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 21:57:42 -0000 Subject: House Points and Dumbledore Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51165 Pippin wrote: >The House Championship is supposed to teach witches and >wizards to uphold the "noble history" of their houses. Part of that, >it seems, is not using an advantage you didn't earn. The >implication is clear that if Cedric had known that Harry had fallen, >he wouldn't have and *shouldn't have* caught the Snitch. >The Slytherins show bad form by a) not offering to cede the cup >and b) gloating over their lead. Errr. . . yes well, but by that logic, don't the Ravenclaws show bad form by not offering to postpone the game? Instead of going and "steamrollering" the Gryffindors? Derannimer (who always thought the point of that action of Cedric Diggory's--*especially* offering to replay--was to show how remarkably decent a boy *he* was, and not to show what the standard conduct generally is.) From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Jan 30 21:57:15 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 13:57:15 -0800 Subject: Seeker position, was Re: [HPforGrownups] House points and Dumbledore (Re: Snape and respect) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <12690397101.20030130135715@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 51166 Hi, Thursday, January 30, 2003, 1:35:52 PM, pippin_999 wrote: > The position of Seeker in > particular is highly dangerous, it requires the purchase of a very > expensive piece of specialized sports equipment and Quidditch > in general takes a lot of time that could be devoted to other > pursuits, like studying. I'm sure *my* parents wouldn't have let > me play. Well, I didn't hear anyone ask Harry if he was aware of the danger, or if he was willing to spend some of his money on a good broom (he was given one), nor do I remember him needing permission from the Dursleys to join the team. He needed permission to visit Hogsmeade, but I don't think there was any mention that parents could forbid their kids to play Quidditch. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From nithya_rachel at hotmail.com Thu Jan 30 22:05:18 2003 From: nithya_rachel at hotmail.com (errolowl ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 22:05:18 -0000 Subject: Harry has TWO parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51167 Pip!Squeak: >Harry is not just his father's son. This is a misleading impression; >possibly deliberate. It's given by the concentration of the first >three books on Harry's dead *father*. I suspect, that while >Harry *looks* like James, and likes to think of himself as like >James, inside he is much more like his mother. Me: Yes of course, Pip. Harry is Lily's son too. That doesn't make him any less his *father's* son either! . For Harry to haveLily's qualities and for us to appreciate that doesn't imply that Jameshas to have the *wrong* qualities. See, while I agree that James may not be the totally golden boy Harry fantasizes him as being, I see no call to paint his faults in the extreme. Pip: >Did James save Snape by his own choice? Lupin describes him as >having 'heard what Sirius had done' [PoA Ch. 18 p.261] which implies >he didn't hear it directly from Sirius. Was Lily so shocked at what >Sirius had done that James suddenly found himself seeing their games >with Lupin in a completely different light? Realising for the first >time that somebody could get *killed*? >Are we going to find out that in the Lily/James partnership, it was >*Lily* who was the pure moral core? Oh Pip! In your eagerness to show positive attributes in Lily, you needlessly slander James. J There is no cannon backing whatsoever to imply that James was lacking in judgment. Why should it be Lily who is first horrified upon hearing about the prank? James was a respected student, if mischievous. He was to be Headboy, in a school that awards points for, and values, character. Surely he had the sense to react to putting a person's life in direct danger? Why does Lily have to be "the pure moral core"? Couldn't James and Lily have shared moral values? Why couldn't Lily have been mischievous too? Please, don't let her be a purer-than-thou angel!! Pip: >Harry's disregard of rules can be for trivial reasons (Hogsmead, >PoA) as well as more serious reasons (saving the Stone, PS/SS). >James's rule breaking wasn't minor, or justifiable. James and the >MWPP encouraged Lupin to escape from the secure isolation that was >needed to protect others. They not only got Lupin out of the Shack, >in a state where he had no control over himself, but they took him >INTO HOGSMEAD AND THE SCHOOL GROUNDS. [PoA Ch. p.260 Ch.18]. They >took him into places where there were other human beings, human >beings that he would (in werewolf state) have wanted to kill. Me: Yes, that's horrifying isn't it? But I don't think they stopped to consider the consequences. People could have died, yes. But so could Ron and Hermione when Harry went into Hogsmeade without thinking of the consequences. Only now would it dawn on him (after Cedric and "Kill the spare") that those with him are even more vulnerable to danger than he is. If Black had really been a dark wizard intent on killing Harry, he would have gone *through* Ron and Hermoine. Was putting them in that danger justified? Was that minor? People could have *died*!! Pip again: >And James's arrogance? Again, JKR chooses to have the *big* result >of James's arrogance presented by Snape at his most >unsympathetic. "You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to >believe you might be mistaken..." [PoA Ch.19 p.265]. James, being >told that Dumbledore suspected a traitor, insisted that Sirius Black >would never betray him. James, having been told that Dumbledore was >so worried he himself was willing to act as Secret Keeper, agreed to >let the Secret Keeper be Peter Pettigrew. >James trusted his own judgement so highly that he chose to trust his >friend Peter Pettigrew over Albus Dumbledore. >And so James and Lily are dead. Harry is an orphan. Because James >Potter was to arrogant to believe he might possibly make a mistake. >To arrogant to believe, in an age where no one knew who to trust (See Sirius's description of the times in Ch. 27 GoF, p. 457) that >*his* friends could possibly betray *him*. Me: Was that arrogance? In an age where on one knew who to trust, he had to make certain choices. Did James doubt Dumbledore? Did he doubt his friends? Who knows? What would Harry do in such circumstances? Doubt Hermione and Ron when things got really bad? Wouldn't he intentionally give the role to one of his closest friends as a gesture of good faith? That this faith was betrayed was Peter's fault ? not James. I can so picture this, from your own words.. Harry, being told that DD suspected a traitor, insisted that Hermione would never betray him. Harry, having been told that Dumbledore was so worried he himself was willing to act as Secret Keeper, agreed to let the Secret Keeper be Ronald Weasley/ Rubeus Hagrid. Harry trusted his own judgement so highly that he chose to trust his friend over Albus Dumbledore. That's why you have close friends. If you can't have faith in them, or you keep doubting them, the friendship is doomed. James was willing to trust his friends with his life..that should be a good thing. Pip: >And which part of his parents will be dominant in Harry? His >father's 'I know best' style of rulebreaking, as Snape fears? His >mother's willingness to die for someone else? Me: I think "Harry" will be the most dominant in Harry. After all, its our choices and not our abilities that count. Besides, James did give his life for his family. Nothing personal, Pip...just felt very sorry for James after reading your post! ;-) Errol From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Jan 30 22:10:23 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 22:10:23 -0000 Subject: House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51168 Tom Wall wrote: > > GREY WOLF WROTE: > I don't assume anything about Quirrels abilities. > I assume that he cheated all the way. > > I REPLY: > Fair enough. Your ideas about how he cheated > were excellent, re: back door! Heidi also had > some creative thoughts too. Accio? Didn't cross > my mind at all. And bypassing the chessboard, > you know, it never occurred to me that somehow > Dumbledore had to do that? ;-) Well, he *was* in a hurry to save Harry. He didn't have time to play a full chess game, after all (unless he played the check in three, that is - but I hope not!) > GREY WOLF WROTE: > Then it is your problem, but I can accept that > Ron is a good enough chess player. It is not > contrived, unless you consider the whole books > in that light (a love spell that saves the child > from certain death? Harry a natural on a broom? > Hermione being the best student of the year?). > > I REPLY: > Considering JKR to have taken the "deus ex machina" > (ie Fawkes is the best example of this) approach says > nothing about my appreciation for the books. OK, we could debate endlessly about Deus Ex Machina in Harry Potter books. In my main theory, there is NO Deus Ex Machina whatsoever. I am speaking, of course, of Magic Dishwasher. More on that later, though. > > GREY WOLF WROTE: > And yet you're still missing the point. Read my words again: I didn't > say that Voldemort was powerful enough, I said *Quirrelmort* was > powerful enough. > > I REPLY: > No point to miss. There is zero canon to support your assumptions > about Quirrellmort's abilities. I'm asking a legitimate question. He's a DADA teacher confident of his powers enough to go looking for Vampires in a forgotten forest in Albania. That indicates that he is something to be taken into account. But the point was (and is) that you don't have to be Voldemort to defeat Harry in a magical duel. Harry himself, four years later, knows enough spells to defeat himself when he was eleven (note of caution, I have been known to revolt stomachs with my non-regular use of spells). This is how it could have been done: Quirrell casts a Expeliarmo, just to make sure. Then, accio heart (if it's possible). Else, wingardium leviosa to Harry's clothes. Drops him from the height of the room. Accio to Harry, directing him towards one of the walls. Repeat accios and wingardiums ad nauseam until Harry cracks his head open. Accio brain. End of fight, by anhilation of the rival. And all spells that a third-year can cast (and I assume Quirrel went all the way in Hogwarts, and I think you won't discuss that, will you?) > I WROTE: > Unless we're working from different texts, that's not the case. > > "...for the best-played game of chess Hogwarts has seen in many > years..." (PS/SS 305) > > No mention of self-sacrifice there. > > GREY WOLF WROTE: > We are reading the same text, but we are interpreting differently. > I REPLY: > I'm not interpreting anything. That's verbatim. No mention of self- > sacrifice. I appreciate your metaphor for the value of pieces and > self-sacrifice in the interest of the greater good, I do, but they're > all unrelated. Dumbledore gave Ron the points for a well played game > of chess. Nothing more. I contest that an eleven year old could have > played chess that well. It seemed too easy. No, you *are* interpreting, just as I am. You asume that a game is played "best" for some reason (as yet unspecified) and I asume it is because Ron demonstrated the ultimate chess ability to sacrifice pieces. Ron demonstrated that ability beyond any other player in Hogwarts ever by self-sacrify, but the point is that what he demonstratd was chess ability. I'd like to hear your views (i.e. interpretation) on what "the best-played game" means because, as I said in my previous post, it *has* to be interpreted, and the three most obvious ones are: 1) Ron demonstrated kasparov-like abilities, steamrolling over the white pieces (doubtful, since Ron probably had no queen and whites did), 2) because he won in the end after a very close match (doubtful, too, since all they did was sacrifice a knight - not a particularly important piece, except at the start) and 3) he demonstrated having the soul of a chess player, by demonstrating the qualities a chess player should have (my point). > I REPLY: > But if you could see the sizes, it's a super easy > puzzle. No lateral thinking involved at all. Which is exactly the point: straight, clear logic is a rare gift in the WW, and Hermione is awarded points for having it. The fact that she's muggle born (and thus, that she *does* have the logical training) has to be ignored (or are you a racist? No, of course not). Hermione hasn't given in to the WW - she has kept her own mind, and points should be awarded because she's a role to be followed (in the logic department, if nothing else). > There's no canon for McGonagall's chess > skills, correct. But whatever the case, I think it's > too easy, if an eleven year old can get through. > > You know, was I the only one who thought that the protections for the > stone were too simplistic? I'm encountering way more resistance on > that comment than I thought I would. It seemed completely obvious to > me that the protections were too simplistic. That was my first > objection to PS/SS, was that if three eleven year olds could get > through, then the stone must not have been well protected. Sans, of > course, the Mirror of Erised, which, IMHO, *was* a brilliant way to > keep it safe. > > -Tom Ah, NOW, we're getting somewhere. Yes, The task seem too easy, don't they? But that is because they have been engineered *specifically* for Harry and his friends. [Grey Wolf goes into MDDT mode]. The story is long and convoluted (as all MD related business; it *is* some 200 post long, at the very least), but lest say that it was all part of a "training excercise" for Harry and co, to test both their courage and their determination (as well as to give Harry the oportunity to face Voldemort, and thus grow, and maybe even finish him off with his love protection). And since I'm in MDDT mode, I might as well tackle Deus Ex Machina. The way I (we) see it, the events at the end of PS have been planned by Dumbledore (he was even close enough to arrive "just in time" to save Harry - coincidence my foot). Same can be said about CoS: Dumbledore made sure that Harry knew about the Fawkes, in case he needed it (I'm pretty sure Dumbledore knew the monster was a basilisk, and thus that Harry would need the bird). What you call Deus Ex Machinas are just Dumbledore's plans. As you yourself noted, there is less of them in the following books - Dumbledore's envoy in PoA is Snape, which manages to get himself knocked out, and in GoF Dumbledore doesn't even see the Portkey!Cup twist, so there is no back-up ready for Harry at the GG (Graveyard Gathering) (unless you count Cedric "Spare" Diggory, which I don't). Check the archives - I don't have the numbers of the posts handy, but you might want to give a try at MD. It might help you make more sense of many things. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, that couldn't end the night's posting without a mention to Magic Dishwasher From risako at nexusanime.com Thu Jan 30 21:22:02 2003 From: risako at nexusanime.com (Melissa McCarthy) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 17:22:02 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's employment policy and Characters You Hate References: Message-ID: <01e901c2c8a5$a2209ac0$70a594d1@vaio> No: HPFGUIDX 51169 Tom Wall said: > And there was a better choice - Dumbledore himself. When I was in > school, the Headmaster had to fill in for teachers more than once > because there was no substitute available. > > And even if it taxed Dumbledore's time a little, it would have been a > better choice than having that idiot teaching such an important > class - for all intents and purposes that ENTIRE year of DADA was > wasted. And if Dumbledore didn't have enough time, what about the Time Turner? If Hermione can use it to get to more classes than she knows what to do with, why can't Dumbledore use it for a much better purpose? And then we wouldn't have had to put up with that egotistical moron Lockhart for an entire book! Lockhart, incidentally, is the one character I really can't stand... and I guess I don't really have a reason, or at least not one that can be put into words. But even Rita Skeeter is more tolerable than he is. Lockhart just makes me want to scream and throw things. He's the reason CoS is my least favourite of the books. Melissa, who feels Crouch!Moody probably shouldn't have harmed Draco but is vindictive enough to feel that the Amazing Bouncing Ferret had it coming (but didn't want to just post a Me Too to Scott's post on that topic) From falcon21 at flash.net Thu Jan 30 21:28:03 2003 From: falcon21 at flash.net (Falcon) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:28:03 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry has TWO parents WAS Re: A midget in glasses, References: Message-ID: <000a01c2c8a6$798857a0$f2b45a42@falcon> No: HPFGUIDX 51170 pip. Why should we expect it? Harry looks like his father in the face, but he has his mother's eyes [numerous references]. His father was tall, but his mother's height was not described. It's quite likely that Harry is small for his age because he takes after his mother in height. Interestingly, in the Mirror of Erised Chapter [12, PS/SS] JKR doesn't mention his mother's height. She mentions hair colour, eye colour, and the fact Lily was pretty; but not height. Petunia, by the way, is described as 'thin' (like Harry) in PS/SS. Harry is not just his father's son. This is a misleading impression; possibly deliberate. It's given by the concentration of the first three books on Harry's dead *father*. Me: According to the HP Lexicon, Lily's build is tall and thin. Just like James. So, we have two tall parents. I don't know what the British consider tall for a woman though. My dad was 6'2" my mom is 5'7" I'm 6'3 3/4". But, I come from a long line of tall people. In the mirror of Erised drawn by JKR, it shows the men in Harry's family as tall. So, Harry may be tall, the next three books will tell. Falcon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From srsiriusblack at aol.com Thu Jan 30 22:25:42 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 17:25:42 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius Black's Hide-Out Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51171 In a message dated 30/01/2003 13:51:22 Eastern Standard Time, stbinch at actionsd.com writes: > I was just listening to GoF again. But this time, after having my brain > polluted by all you Evil-Black-ists, I was being skeptical of things I had > previously accepted as truth. Like, what if there was another reason that > Sirius didn't want Hedwig to deliver any more letters to him? And what if > he > didn't break into another wizard's home to use the fire? > > What I'm suggesting (I don't believe it myself, but it does seem possible) > is that Sirius is hiding out at the Riddle house with his old pal > Voldemort. > That is why he doesn't want Hedwig coming back, and that is why > head-in-the-fire communication is used. > > Any thoughts? Further speculation? Previous discussion? Absolutely impossible! - from your die hard Black/Lupin/Snape lover. The explanation of why Hedwig should not be used is a perfectly acceptable one. Snowy Owls are not native and they would attract attention. We already know that Wormtail was the servant of Voldie's who was in the Riddle House. If Sirius were to have had anything to do with handing Harry over to LV in GoF, he probably would have attended with all of the other D.E.'s as Harry was to die that night, and if Sirius were the wretched betrayer that the Evil!Sirius arguments support, wouldn't he have wanted the glory of being a part of the fall of Harry Potter? As for fire communication, that is much like Muggle telephone. Sirius couldn't go traipsing into Hogwarts to talk to Harry. He had to protect himself- remember he is *still* a wanted man. No one but DD and RHH know that Sirius is innocent until the end of GoF. He couldn't risk being caught, but he felt he needed to be close by to Harry in case anything happened. I just don't buy into the Evil!Sirius theory. Are there things in his past that are a wee bit sketchy? YES. But is he evil? I'd wager all the galleons in Gringotts that he is not. So far, he has only shown love and respect to Harry. He even 'gave' Harry the opportunity to kill him [Sirius] in PoA. He broke out of Azkaban to protect Harry from Wormtail and LV, and the guilt that is borne with him from his 'involvement' in the deaths of James and Lily bind him to protect Harry. The same way Wormtail is in debt to Harry, Sirius is as well. In PoA, Harry *could* have killed him. But, Harry, out of trepidation, doubt, and whatnot, spared Sirius's life. I think we will see a Sirius who has a heart of gold. He obviously has already shown he would risk his life to save Harry's. Golden!Sirius -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 20:42:45 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (GRACE701 ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 20:42:45 -0000 Subject: The Kiss In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51172 Scott quoted: "'Bye, Harry!' said Hermione, and she did something she had never done before, and kissed him on the cheek. (GoF, 1st Amer. ed., p. 734)" Mer wrote: "It's true that Jo isn't 14, but she's done a pretty good job of writing appropriately for the kids in the book. Not that I think the kiss necessarily means anything (though I'd like it to, as a proud H/H shipper...), but also the kiss might mean more to a 14 y/o boy than to a 14 y/o girl. I mean, girls do things frivolously sometimes (especially at 14)and while a quick peck on the cheek is friendly in the eyes of a girl, it might bring up questions for a boy. Or actually, now that I'm writing this, I think the difference might be a giver/receiver thing. What might seem friendly for the giver of a peck on the cheek, might bring up 'what was that supposed to mean' questions from the receiver - regardless of sex. Hmmm..." I agree with Mer because of what Scott quoted for us. Being that JK is writing in Harry's POV, somewhat, she emphasizes that Hermione did something she had never done before. Meaning Harry for the first time actually reacts to something that Hermione did and JK describes it for us. I remember in SS, Hermione gave Harry a hug and it didn't mean anything to him because she didn't comment on Harry's reaction to it, from what I remember. (I wish I had my book to quote.) Also, in the CoS movie. Hermione gave Harry a hug and hesitated to give Ron one which confuses us even more. Who does Hermione like?! But WB must've needed JK's permission to add that in, among other things. IMO, this is a sign that there will be SHIPping between Ron and Hermione or Hermione and Harry in future books. My preference: H/H. :D From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 21:02:14 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (GRACE701 ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 21:02:14 -0000 Subject: Hermione's parents Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51173 I would like to know more about Hermione's parents besides the fact that they are Muggles and dentists. Could it be because of them Hermione is an over-achiever, over-studious; an eccentrist period? (Mind you she's my favorite character.) It would also be interesting to have Harry and Ron visit her. Ron can finally see how Muggles live and we can see the disasters that may occur from this. From jmmears at comcast.net Thu Jan 30 22:34:05 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 22:34:05 -0000 Subject: Who's more out of line? (WAS: Snape and respect) In-Reply-To: <018a01c2c891$03f75870$2401010a@Frodo> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51174 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "heiditandy" wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: serenadust [mailto:jmmears at c...] > > > And, like Eileen, I was both horrified and greatly amused by Draco's > > ferret-bouncing (particularly in light of the fact that he gets off > > scot-free for hitting Hermione with that curse in the hall). The > > first incident is totally unlike the second. Heidi said: > But he wasn't aiming at Hermione. He was aiming at Harry, who was aiming > at Malfoy, and as Harry said... > > 'We attacked each other at the same time!' Harry shouted. > '-and he hit Goyle - look -' > Snape examined Goyle, whose face resembled something that would have > been at home in a book on poisonous fungi. > > So in your mind, Draco should've been punished, although Harry shouldn't > have, even though they were dueling in the hallway? Now Me: Oh no, if Draco had been punished (and I think he should have been)it would only be fair for Harry to have been punished as well for dueling in the hallway. I do agree that he was aiming at Harry, who was aiming at Malfoy etc. But say, for example, two cars are drag racing illegally on a public road and one of them inadvertantly ends up injuring another motorist who was unlucky enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. That person would be charged with more than the unlawful drag racing. He would also be liable for the injury to the bystander and I imagine that the penalty would be much more severe for that than for the orignal offense. And actually Harry does end up being punished, along with Ron, although that detention was given for shouting at Snape, after his cruel treatment of Hermione. He may have been planning on giving Harry detention anyway for dueling in the hall, but we'll never know. However, he certainly doesn't punish Draco for breaking the rules against dueling, even though he hurt Hermione in the process. Sorry if I wasn't clear. Heidi again: > The first incident is totally unlike the second, because in the first, > he was probably trying to curse Harry from behind (although to miss at > that distance gives me the impression that he was either really shaken > up by what Harry said, or he was trying to get his attention rather than > actually hurt him) and in the second, he and Harry were actually > battling each other - neither was going to be caught by surprise, and in > fact, they both acted at the same instant. Me again: I agree that both Harry and Draco were acting at the same instant. I'm not inclined to extend Draco the benefit of the doubt about not really wanting to hurt Harry. I think that if he missed, he may just have been a poor shot. Heidi continued: > It's clear that Crouch's transfiguration and subsequent physical assault > on Draco were out of line - Prof. McGonnagall says so in that very > scene. And it's also clear that even later in the year, he's still > rattled by Moody, as evidenced by how jumpy he gets when Hermione > pretends to see Moody passing nearby later in the book. Me again: I do think that Prof. McGonnagall was right to step in when she did and stop the ferret-bouncing. It shows good judgement on Draco's part to be wary of Moody from then on, although he still doesn't seem to have learned that it's not nice to pick on people (which was what he was supposed to have gotten out of the bouncing incident, as far as I'm concerned). I can't imagine what, if anything, can ever convince Draco to stop being as horrible as he is by the fourth book. Heidi continues: I'd bet that Crouch's treatment of Draco (and possibly of other > Slytherins) in DaDA is as bad if not worse than Snape's treatment of > Harry, et al, in potions, because Crouch has many opportunities, such as > during the teaching of the Imperio curse, to be physically cruel to his > students. Me: It could be, although we never hear another word about any interactions between Draco Malfoy and Crouch/Moody. I tend to think that having made his point with the bouncing incident, Crouch backed off, but there's no evidence either way. Heidi: > I find it a bit odd, actually, to hear people praise Crouch's treatment > of Draco. I mean, the man killed his father and was preparing to kill > Harry - and we're supposed to continue to feel praiseworthy about his > actions towards a student? This is about 180 degrees away from > PickleJimmy's post of late last night, where he posted that people who > don't feel X, Y or Z are reading the wrong book. > > Are those who think Crouch did the right thing reading the same book as > I am? Do you really think his motives were pure and completely focused > on helping/being kind to Harry? Me again: Not at all. I never meant to say that I thought Crouch's treatment of Draco praiseworthy, just entertaining. We don't know at this point in the story that he is going to kill his father, and wants Harry dead.Of course in hindsight, Crouch's actions take on a whole new level of meaning. At that point in the story though I (and I assume everyone else) thought that he *was* actually Mad-Eye Moody, auror extrordinaire, with rather unconventional, but effective disciplinary methods. At the time the incident took place, of course I assumed his motives were to help Harry, AND teach Draco a lesson. That's what's so brilliant about the whole passage. It makes perfect sense as far as what we expect Moody to do, as well as when we find out that Moody is really the patricidal death-eater, Crouch, Jr. I'm pretty sure I'm reading the right book. This being the WW with its warrior ethos, I don't perceive physical injury the same way I would in a story that takes place in the "real world". If the book were "A Separate Peace" or any other school setting story, I'd be appalled at a teacher who physically punished a student, even one as rotten as Draco Malfoy. However, at Hogwarts broken bones, vanished bones, and transplanted facial features are no big deal, and Draco isn't seriously hurt in any way (although I expect he did have some bruises). So what wouldn't be at all funny in a different kind of setting, is IMO quite amusing in this one. Jo Serenadust, *not* a Draco fan (does it show? ;-) From kethlenda at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 22:39:30 2003 From: kethlenda at yahoo.com (Kelly L. ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 22:39:30 -0000 Subject: full moon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51175 > Sushi wrote: > > The full moon does not rise at sunset. It rises at noon, > > and sets at midnight, meaning that Lupin would have been susceptible > > at any point between those two times. Well, actually, I think the full moon does rise at sunset. It would rise at noon when it was a half moon, I think. I have two pictures from my last vacation, one of the setting sun, and one of the rising moon taken just a few seconds later after I turned the other direction. Kelly From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Thu Jan 30 22:40:46 2003 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 22:40:46 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and respect References: Message-ID: <3E39A9EE.70203@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51176 Michael Broadwater wrote: > pippin_999 wrote: > > >>You're referring, perhaps, to the incidents when Hermione set >>Snape on fire, broke into his office and helped knock him >>unconscious? If they were both adults, I'd say she had it coming. >> >> > Are you insinuating that Snape is psychic? He didn't know that > Hermione had committed the first two of those three crimes. Didn't he? When he confiscated the book from Harry, he saw this famous blue fire, speciality of Hermione. I think he put two and two together. When Hermione was in the hospital wing, it's quite probable that Madame Pomfrey sought his opinion, or at least mentioned the incident in the teachers room. He might be a right bastard, but he is not stupid. > The third, > OTOH, gives Snape ample room to dislike the heroic trio despite any > claims he may have made to Fudge about believing they were the victims > of a Confundus charm. -- Irene From lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com Thu Jan 30 22:47:20 2003 From: lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com (lindseyharrisst ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 22:47:20 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's employment policy (WAS: Characters You Hate) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51177 > > Tom ads: > > I agree that Dumbledore wasn't thorough enough. I often thought to > > myself that, with one requested charm Dumbledore could have > > disqualified Lockhart - provided it wasn't a memory charm. > > > > And there was a better choice - Dumbledore himself. When I was in > > school, the Headmaster had to fill in for teachers more than once > > because there was no substitute available. > > > > And even if it taxed Dumbledore's time a little, it would have been a > > better choice than having that idiot teaching such an important > > class - for all intents and purposes that ENTIRE year of DADA was > > wasted. > > > > -Tom > See Greywolf, I have supportersand loyal allies *g*! I really do think we are both getting too much out of the spirit of cannon now, what with all the discussion of hiring procedures we know nothing about. All we can say for sure is that if what you have at the end of a year is competantly taught children then you have hired correctly and your procedure works and if not then you have not and it does n't. nuh nuh na nuh nuh can't say it back! lol, Snapesangel (who is nothing if not persistant) From skelkins at attbi.com Thu Jan 30 22:51:06 2003 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 22:51:06 -0000 Subject: You're reading the wrong book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51178 Jimmy Pickle wrote: > I just finished reading the "Snape and Respect" thread and > couldn't believe there are readers out there that thought > Snape or Slytherin were hard done by in the whole - Dumbledore > point awarding affair at the end of book one. Yes, HPfGU really is unbelievable that way, isn't it? Did you know that there are actually some people around here who *don't* think that Ron and Harry are inconsiderate? That there are people who didn't read the Twins as bullies? That there are people who felt no sympathy -- none! -- for Peter Pettigrew in the Shrieking Shack (no kidding! Just go back through the archives! You'll see that I'm telling the absolute truth! It's incredible!)? There are people who think that Snape never got his hands dirty back when he was a Death Eater. There are people who actually thought that Ton-Tongue toffee was *funny.* There are people who *didn't* find Lockhart a supremely irritating character. There are people who don't like Lupin. There are people who don't like Hagrid. There are people who don't like Snape. There are people who don't like Ginny. Why, there are even a couple of people around here who think that *Sirius Black,* of all people, is *Sexy!* Can you believe it? What a wacky world we live in, eh? > So, if you Love Snape and think he was mis-treated, if you > cheer when Slytherin win, if Malfoy the bouncing ferret brought > a tear to your eye (and not from laughing - like mine was), if > you're hoping that Lupin/Black/Dumbledore/McGonagall/etc turn > out to be Evil, then *you are reading the wrong book* If you do not at least see something to admire about Snape, then how do *you* construct the end of GoF? What do you make of the idea of a parallelism being drawn in GoF between Snape and Peter Pettigrew? What do you see as Karkaroff's function in the text, if he is not meant in part to serve as a double to Snape? If we're merely meant to hate him, then what do you make of that long appraising exchange of stares between Snape and Harry at the end of GoF? If you do not see any elements of injustice in Snape's treatment, then what do you perceive as the role of "Snape's Grudge" in relation to PoA's thematic emphasis on the spiritual perils of vengeance and the dwelling on past *wrongs?* If you see nothing disturbing about the bouncing ferret incident, then doesn't that sort of weaken for you the raw emotional power of GoF's moral complexity, of the novel's erosion of the boundaries between how Death Eaters behave and how their enemies (as well as ordinary citizens) behave? It would for me, I think. But I am not you. (I also assume that you weren't trying to read GoF as a Whodunnit!) We're likely not reading the same books, no. But I think that the books I've been reading are pretty darned good, and so far, they've grown more to my literary tastes with each volume. I have hopes that this trend will continue. The books that you've been reading are, I'm sure, every bit as rewarding to you as mine are to me. Perhaps we would not care much for each others' "copies" of the books, though. That's okay. The same readings are never going to seem equally rewarding or enriching to everyone. One of the main purposes of a discussion group, as I see it, is to serve as a forum in which members can share with each other their differing interpretations of the books, in large part so that they can come to new insights -- and therefore new pleasures -- in regard to the text. When people propose readings of the text which strike me as unfruitful or simplistic or unrewarding, or which just (for reasons I cannot even articulate) *squick* me somehow, then I do indeed often feel tempted to tell them they are wrong. I think, though, that this is something I need to guard myself against. I think that it would probably be far more informative and pleasant for everyone in the long run to resist that temptation. After all, it often turns out that other people are seeing things in the books that I find rewarding as well, once I'm willing to give them a try. Or not. Sometimes when you try a new food, after all, it really *does* taste every bit as disgusting as you thought it would. That happens too -- especially to me. I'm a pretty picky eater. ;-) But you know, that doesn't mean that the food is disgusting in any *objective* sense of the term. It usually just means that it suits some tastes and not others. There would be little point to this group's existence if we all read the books in precisely the same way. It would be very boring, and not in the least bit instructive to anyone. There would also be little point to the group -- for *me,* at any rate -- if I considered other people's understandings of the story to be the "wrong books." If I truly felt that way, then why on *earth* would I be here? Why not just stick with my own reading and be content with that, rather than seeking out the opinions of others? I'm here to learn about other people's readings of the books. After all, I already know what *I* think. If there weren't a multiplicity of viewpoints represented here, I'd have moved on months ago. Nonetheless, there are many groups out there which *do* cater to particular readings or interpretations of this text. There are pro- Snape groups and pro-Lupin groups and R/H groups and H/H groups. I'm even given to understand that there is a Cho Is Evil group out there somewhere, for those who like that sort of thing. ;-) *This* group, however, does not adhere to any "party line" of interpretation, reading or critical approach, and that is one of the main reasons that I am here, rather than on one of those other groups. I would humbly suggest that perhaps those who find diverse viewpoints *very* upsetting or threatening to their own personal take on the canon might just be reading the wrong list. There are alternatives which do not adhere to the same policy of inclusivity and which therefore do not host as large or as diverse a multiplicity of viewpoints. Elkins From starropal at hotmail.com Thu Jan 30 22:58:50 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 16:58:50 -0600 Subject: Miranda Goshawk... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51179 Okay, yet ANOTHER suggestion for the new DADA teacher: Miranda Goshawk. She's the one who writes The Standard Book of Spells (Grade _) books that Harry gets each year. She's female and we've never met her before. Sounds like potential to me. Besides, except for CoS there's no real point of telling the readers the names of Harry's text books and their authors. In all four books TSBoS(G_) have been mentioned, three of which also include the author's name. (P/SS ch 5, CoS ch 4, PoA ch 4, GoF ch 10) So I ask you: Coincidence or small seemingly insignificant JKR clue? Don't ask me how I thought of it, 'cause I don't know. But according to Yahoo she's not been brought up before. Star Opal _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Jan 30 23:21:33 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 10:21:33 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: full moon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E3A4E2D.30408.2BFDF4A@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 51180 On 30 Jan 2003 at 22:39, Kelly L. kethlenda at yahoo.com wrote: > Well, actually, I think the full moon does rise at sunset. It would > rise at noon when it was a half moon, I think. I have two pictures > from my last vacation, one of the setting sun, and one of the > rising moon taken just a few seconds later after I turned the > other direction. Astronomer speaking here. A full moon rises at approximately sunset and sets at approximately sunrise. A half moon may rise at approximately noon and set at approximately midnight, or rise at approximately midnight and set at approximately noon. There are slight deviations because because what we call a full moon is often in a technical sense as little as 95% full, and that difference makes some difference to time of rising and setting. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 23:37:45 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 23:37:45 -0000 Subject: full moon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51181 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly L. " wrote: > > > Sushi wrote: > > > The full moon does not rise at sunset. It rises at noon, > > > and sets at midnight, meaning that Lupin would have been > susceptible > > > at any point between those two times. > > Well, actually, I think the full moon does rise at sunset. It would > rise at noon when it was a half moon, I think. I have two pictures > from my last vacation, one of the setting sun, and one of the > rising moon taken just a few seconds later after I turned the > other direction. > > Kelly bboy_mn: There is someone here on the this list that is an expert on this stuff, or at least compared to the rest of us, he/she is an expert. Hopefull he/she will jump in an settle this. Since I have seen the moon in the daylight hours of late afternoon and at other time seen the moon appear long after it was dark, I have to assume that the moon rises and falls on a varying schedule just like the sun. Tides are caused by the moon, and in ocean front cities, tides are clearly tracked, new schedules being posted constantly to keep swimmers and boats aware of the potential hazards that the tides can cause. This again makes me believe the the rise and set of the moon fluctuates enough that the average person can't predicted it; experts have to post the current rise/fall time calcualtions for them. Our resident expert in a much older post indicated that just because it is the night of a full moon, and that the moon is visible, doesn't mean that the moon is full. There is a specific time on any given full moon when the moon reaches 'FULL' and I assume there is a specific length of time that it is considered full. Now relative to a werewolf, the moon influence on the night of a full moon rather than the minute of the full moon, might be enough to trigger the effect. Also, we don't really know if it is merely the phase of the moon or the actual presents of moonlight or a combination of these factors. Lupin could have had some resistance built up in the wolfsbane potion, but give the flow of adreniline that night, when he was finaly struck by actual moonlight, he resistance was completely desolved. Not say that happpened, just speculating on possibilities and straying from my point. Back to the point, I think, and I hope our resident expert will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the moon rises and fall on a varying but predictable schedule just like the sun. Just a thought. Better men than I know the true answer, perhaps we will hear from them. bboy_mn From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Jan 30 23:48:01 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 10:48:01 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who's more out of line? (WAS: Snape and respect) In-Reply-To: References: <004501c2c7ea$747207a0$40a794d1@vaio> Message-ID: <3E3A5461.9469.2D81A8D@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 51182 On 30 Jan 2003 at 17:01, Tom Wall thomasmwall at yahoo.co wrote: > For everyone who got so upset over Snape's treatment of Hermione: > were you equally upset when Crouch/Moody turned Malfoy into a ferret > and started bouncing him around? Interesting question. I'm not sure I was equally upset. But I certainly think that 'Moody's' actions were unacceptable in a teacher. > Were you as shocked and angry as McGonagall, or, like Ron, did you > think it was farily amusing? I bet that some of us even thought that > Malfoy *deserved* it, didn't we? Yes, I most certainly did think that Malfoy deserved it. But whether or not Malfoy deserved it is an irrelevancy. Whether he deserved it or not, 'Moody' had a duty *not* to do it. A teacher's responsibilities do not just come down to what the child deserves. There's a lot more involved in that. A couple of times in my childhood, I probably 'deserved' a punch in the mouth for things I said to my teachers - that didn't give them any right to do it. > IMHO, if we want to be technical, this is a far more serious and > grievous offense, and it's a total betrayal of the relationship > between teacher and student. Far worse, at any rate, than letting a > cruel remark out. IMHO, yes, and no. I think it depends on how you look at it. It's probably true that what 'Moody' did had far more potential to harm Malfoy than what Snape did to Hermione. I'm not sure that is certain (not given the miraculous healing methods available at Hogwarts) but I think it probably is. *But* I think 'Moody' may have acted out of instant and impulsive rage. What Snape did was cold and deliberate, after a pause. Acting out of rage is certainly something a teacher should *never* do. They should have more self control, and if they don't there is a real problem. But personally, I consider an act of impulsive rage (though still unacceptable) to be, in many cases, far more forgiveable than a deliberate act of cruelty. And if you look back to my first post in the Snape and Respect thread, you can see I made reference to this ("The pause in which he looked at her, means it can't be dismissed as spur of the moment - it was deliberate cruelty.") Snape's remark was not a spur of the moment phrase that just slipped out. It came after cold, hard deliberation. It was deliberately cruel. It wasn't impulsive. What 'Moody' did was, IMHO, certainly unacceptable in a teacher. But I think there is a real question as to how calculated it was. In Snape's case, there wasn't. > And don't try to argue that it wasn't Moody anyways: *we* didn't know > that when it happened. > > Yet somehow I bet that most of us here still thought it was > uproariously funny. Yes, I did. I *love* seeing a bully punished. I was the victim of severe bullying at school, severe enough it almost killed me, and I *applaud* any case where I see a bully getting his. That doesn't stop me knowing that it shouldn't be happening, at the same time as I applaud the fact that it is. Let me put it this way. I'm a firm believer that many bullies (not all - I work in the area, and I know that bullying is a complex thing that we can't make universal assumptions about) should be severely punished. I am a firm believer in corporal punishment for many bullies. I think that should be legal. But if I saw a teacher hit a child for bullying, and I knew that it was illegal, I would stop that teacher doing it by any means necessary. Because no matter what my personal feelings are, a teacher has an absolute duty to obey every rule in existence when it comes to dealing with kids. My personal feelings, and the teachers personal feelings, are utterly irrelevant - the fundamental duty of care comes before emotion. What 'Moody' did was absolutely unacceptable, if for no other reason, than we know he has been told by Dumbledore that Transfiguration is not to be used as a punishment. He knows he's not allowed to do it. He still did it. He crossed the line. It doesn't matter if he (or I) think the lines in the wrong place - he doesn't have that right. Yes, I thought it was funny. Like Ron, I want the image of Draco Malfoy, the amazing bouncing ferret in my memory for ever. It was funny. It was also totally unacceptable. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Fri Jan 31 00:08:42 2003 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 00:08:42 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's employment policy (WAS: Characters You Hate) References: Message-ID: <3E39BE8A.7060604@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51183 Grey Wolf wrote: > I don't think that Dumbledore would've been > aquainted with Lockhart before he hired him, and thus there is no way > Dumbledore could've known that Lockhart hadn't done all those things. > And, since those things *were* done, they probably would be believable > enough to think that Lockhart, beyond his showmanship, really knew > about DADA. > > Dumbledore would've surely known that Lockhart was full of himself, of > course (how could anyone not know?), but that is no reason *not* to > hire someone. And no-one suspected of him before getting to know him. Actually my theory is just the opposite. Lockhart boasts to be a member of the Dark Force Defence League, and I always imagined Dumbledore was a member too. If Lockhart hijacks any conversation during the league meetings the way he does with Hogwarts teachers, all the real activity of this useful league must be paralysed. Dumbledore does not act very surprised when he learns what happened to Lockhart. "Impaled upon your own sword, Gilderoy?" indicates Dumbledore is quite familiar with Lockhart's methods. Probably he wanted to get Lockhart as a teacher in Hogwarts to expose him to the wizarding world and to get rid of him in the Defence League. Irene From drednort at alphalink.com.au Fri Jan 31 00:12:33 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 11:12:33 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A theory of Lupin's transformation In-Reply-To: <185.160ba38f.2b6a72a2@aol.com> Message-ID: <3E3A5A21.8169.2EE9189@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 51184 On 30 Jan 2003 at 7:20, eloiseherisson at aol.com wrote: > I'm sorry, I don't follow this. > The phase of the moon is independent of its rising and setting times, which > is dependent on the location of the observer and the time of year. No, and yes. The phase of the moon is related to its time of rising and setting. These times are certainly dependent on location of the observer. > For instance, this month the moon became full at 10.49 GMT on the 18th. In > Edinburgh it rose at 15.55 GMT and set at 09.11 GMT. In London, it rose at > 16.11 GMT and set at 08.28 GMT, whereas in Christchurch (NZ) it didn't rise > until about 9 pm local time. Let's use these as a comparison: Edinburgh 18/01/03. Sunset: 16:15 Moonrise: 15:54 Difference: 19 minutes. 19/01/03 Sunrise: 08:29 Moonset: 09:42 Difference: 73 minutes. London 18/01/03 Sunset: 16:24 Moonrise: 16:11 Difference: 13 minutes. 19/01/03 Sunrise: 07:56 Moonset: 09:05 Difference: 69 minutes. Wellington (only NZ city I can easily do) 18/01/03 Sunset: 20:53 Moonrise: 21:04 Difference: 11 minutes. 19/01/03 Sunrise: 06:09 Moonset: 06:17 Difference: 8 minutes. With a full moon, the difference between sunset and moonrise, and sunrise and moonset, will be pretty close. You can basically assume the moon will be out for at least most of the night, and will not be visible for at least most of the day - there will be some overlap. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com Fri Jan 31 00:18:23 2003 From: lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com (lindseyharrisst ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 00:18:23 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's employment policy (WAS: Characters You Hate) In-Reply-To: <3E39BE8A.7060604@btopenworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51185 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Irene Mikhlin wrote: > Actually my theory is just the opposite. Lockhart boasts to be a member > of the Dark Force Defence League, and I always imagined Dumbledore was a member too. If Lockhart hijacks any conversation during the league > meetings the way he does with Hogwarts teachers, all the real activity > of this useful league must be paralysed. Dumbledore does not act very > surprised when he learns what happened to Lockhart. "Impaled upon your > own sword, Gilderoy?" indicates Dumbledore is quite familiar with > Lockhart's methods. Probably he wanted to get Lockhart as a teacher in > Hogwarts to expose him to the wizarding world and to get rid of him in > the Defence League. There's a thought... I wonder if we will see him again in book 5 (or later)as a reformed character, doing his old job in some sort of League but with a new enthusiasm and some genuine skill maybe. I don't think JK would have had him there only ever as light relief, though I could be wrong. Most of her characters are relevant in some way we don't appreciate when we see them first from a narrative pioint of view. This does not, however, cancel out my thoughts on DD and Lockhart, since at the time he was a twit. Snapesangel xxx From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Fri Jan 31 00:25:35 2003 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 00:25:35 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] House points and Dumbledore (Re: Snape and respect) References: Message-ID: <3E39C27F.7040400@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51186 pippin_999 wrote: > PoA ch. 9: "Diggory got the Snitch," said George. "Just after you > fell. He didn't realize what had happened. When he looked back > and saw you on the ground, he tried to call it off. Wanted a > rematch. But they won fair and square..." > > GoF ch. 6 [Cedric speaking] "Harry fell off his broom, Dad," he > muttered. "I told you...it was an accident..." > > "Yes, but *you* didn't fall off, did you?" roared Amos genially, > slapping his son on the back."Always modest, our Ced, always > the gentleman...but the best man won, I'm sure Harry'd say the > same, wouldn't you, eh?..." > > And consider the much-too-long-to-quote Alphonse and Gaston > routine in GoF where Cedric and Harry argue over who should > take the Cup. The issue for both of them is not who should win > according to The Rules, but which of them is "the best man." > > The House Championship is supposed to teach witches and > wizards to uphold the "noble history" of their houses. Part of that, > it seems, is not using an advantage you didn't earn. The > implication is clear that if Cedric had known that Harry had fallen, > he wouldn't have and *shouldn't have* caught the Snitch. > > The Slytherins show bad form by a) not offering to cede the cup > and b) gloating over their lead. Surely you can't mean that Slytherin should have ceded the cup because Harry could not play that game? If I compare it to football (the real one, aka soccer), Harry falling during the game is an equivalent of someone injured on pitch. The good form in those cases is to take the ball out of the game and wait for your opponent to get help, or to be replaced or whatever. Not to rush and score goals meanwhile. If Cedric noticed Harry falling, he'd have waited for him to get back in the game and then they would compete for the snitch as furiously as before. The situation with Slytherin game is very different - no one would expect the team to lose the game on purpose just because your opponents star player is injured before the game. I don't like much what we see of Slytherin house in the books, but I don't understand how this can be held against them. Irene From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 31 00:27:10 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 00:27:10 -0000 Subject: Harry has TWO parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51187 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "errolowl " wrote: > > > > Pip!Squeak: > >Harry is not just his father's son. This is a misleading > >impression; possibly deliberate. It's given by the concentration > >of the first three books on Harry's dead *father*. I > >suspect, that while Harry *looks* like James, and likes to think > >of himself as like James, inside he is much more like his mother. > > Me: > Yes of course, Pip. Harry is Lily's son too. That doesn't > make him any less his *father's* son either! . For Harry to > have Lily's qualities and for us to appreciate that doesn't > imply > that James has to have the *wrong* qualities. See, while I agree > that James may not be the totally golden boy Harry fantasizes him > as being, I see no call to paint his faults in the extreme. Oh, dear! You might find Elkins' post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/50445 interesting. She describes the type of polemic I was and am using. > > Pip: > >Did James save Snape by his own choice? Lupin describes him as > >having 'heard what Sirius had done' [PoA Ch. 18 p.261] which > >implies he didn't hear it directly from Sirius. Was Lily so > >shocked at what Sirius had done that James suddenly found himself > >seeing their games with Lupin in a completely different light? > >Realising for the first time that somebody could get *killed*? > >Are we going to find out that in the Lily/James partnership, it > >was *Lily* who was the pure moral core? > Errol Owl: > Oh Pip! In your eagerness to show positive attributes in Lily, you > needlessly slander James. J There is no cannon backing whatsoever > to imply that James was lacking in judgment. Sorry, but you did read my post, didn't you? ;-) Or are you using 'judgement' in a different sense, or did you mean to say 'moral judgement'? James was lacking in 'judgement'. That's canon. Picking Peter Pettigrew as the one to trust over Albus Dumbledore (canon) is bad judgement. Ok, that one could be argued as being IMO, but allowing a human-mind-gone-walkies werewolf to play around in a village street at night (canon) is *seriously* bad judgement by any standards. >Why should it be Lily who > is first horrified upon hearing about the prank? Why shouldn't it be? James didn't hear about the prank from Sirius. That's implied by canon. The next question is: why is canon implying this? Surely the *easiest* route for James to find out about the prank is from his best friend Sirius? > Surely he > had the sense to react to putting a person's life in direct > danger? Why does Lily have to be "the pure moral core"? I don't know whether or not James had the sense to react to putting a person's life in direct danger. I do know that James's best friend didn't have the sense to *not* put a person's life in direct danger. Further, nearly twenty years later he's still insisting that Snape deserved to become a moonlight snack. And before the Prank, James and Sirius were bouncing about on moonlit nights with their friend Lupin. Having what Lupin calls 'near misses' where he nearly bit people. Which, apparently, they laughed about afterwards. [It's in PoA, Ch. 18, p. 260]. Which doesn't show either good sense OR evidence of good moral judgement. If Snape had found himself having a 'near miss' would James, Sirius, Lupin and Peter have laughed? The evidence canon presents is that they would have done so. Is it an unreasonable question to ask precisely *why* this incident is so different? The only different things appears to be that a)there are no other marauders around to stop Lupin and b) James has learnt about this from someone other than Sirius. I'm presenting you with a theory that it is b), not a) that was important, and the 'someone' was Lily. > James was a > respected student, if mischievous. He was to be Headboy, in a > school that awards points for, and values, character. Yes, you're right. James was Head Boy. As, fifty years earlier, was Tom Riddle. As, two books ago, was Percy Weasley. Admittedly, James may belong to the 'Cedric Diggory' school of things [brave, but dead], but being Head Boy doesn't necessarily point to a shining moral character. Couldn't > James and Lily have shared moral values? Why couldn't Lily have > been mischievous too? Please, don't let her be a purer-than-thou > angel!! Alas, you are fighting against a world where names have meaning. Where a werewolf is called 'Remus Lupin'. Where an idolised fake is called 'Gilderoy Lockhart'. And where a resentful sister is called Petunia. 'Lily', in the language of flowers, means 'pure'. > > Pip: > >James's rule breaking wasn't minor, or justifiable. James and the > >MWPP encouraged Lupin to escape from the secure isolation that > >was needed to protect others. They not only got Lupin out of the > >Shack, in a state where he had no control over himself, but they > >took him INTO HOGSMEAD AND THE SCHOOL GROUNDS. [PoA Ch. p.260 > >Ch.18]. They took him into places where there were other human > >beings, human beings that he would (in werewolf state) have > wanted to kill. > Me: (ErrolOwl) > Yes, that's horrifying isn't it? But I don't think they > stopped to consider the consequences. > People could have died, yes. > But so could Ron and Hermione when Harry went into Hogsmeade > without thinking of the consequences. Only now would it dawn on > him (after Cedric and "Kill the spare") that those with him are > even more vulnerable to danger than he is. If Black had really > been a dark wizard intent on killing Harry, he would have gone > *through* Ron and Hermoine. Was putting them in that danger > justified? Was that minor? People could have *died*!! Harry put himself in danger when going into Hogsmeade. He also accidentally put other people in danger. He wasn't thinking of the consequences, and didn't realise he could have died. It is canon that when he realised what he'd done, he felt bad about it. Werewolves are only dangerous to humans [canon, again]. The MWPP in animagi form were in no danger whatsoever from Lupin [that's why they became animagi]. *They* put insomniac villagers, straying schoolkids, and patrolling gamekeepers in danger. Whilst remaining perfectly safe themselves. Didn't stop to consider the consequences? It took them the best part of - what, a couple of days? A sudden impulse [like Harry's original Hogsmeade trip]? Nope, it took [more canon] the best part of *three years* to become animagi [p.259]. To make themselves safe from Lupin. Three years in which you might think it would occur to them that whilst keeping company with Lupin was a nice thought, staying in the Shack might have been an even nicer thought. Especially for the majority of the population, who *can't* manage the animagi transformation. > > Pip again: > >And James's arrogance? Again, JKR chooses to have the *big* > >result of James's arrogance presented by Snape at his most > >unsympathetic. "You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to > >believe you might be mistaken..." [PoA Ch.19 p.265]. James, being > >told that Dumbledore suspected a traitor, insisted that Sirius > >Black would never betray him. James, having been told that > >Dumbledore was so worried he himself was willing to act as Secret > >Keeper, agreed to let the Secret Keeper be Peter Pettigrew. > >James trusted his own judgement so highly that he chose to trust > >his friend Peter Pettigrew over Albus Dumbledore. > >And so James and Lily are dead. Harry is an orphan. Because James > >Potter was to arrogant to believe he might possibly make a > >mistake. To arrogant to believe, in an age where no one knew who > to trust (See Sirius's description of the times in Ch. 27 GoF, p. > >457) that *his* friends could possibly betray *him*. > > Me: (ErrolOwl) > Was that arrogance? In an age where noone knew who to trust, he > had to make certain choices. Did James doubt Dumbledore? Did he > doubt his friends? Who knows? Nobody. But what we do know is that James was *told* there were suspicions of a traitor in his close circle. And that Sirius Black suddenly decided to switch the Secret Keeper, which still makes me wonder about him, and should certainly have given James pause for thought. The other thing we know is that James was risking the lives of his wife and baby on the faithfulness of *his* friends. Did he have the right to do that? When he'd been *told* that there were suspicions of a traitor? > What would Harry do in such circumstances? Doubt Hermione and Ron > when things got really bad? Wouldn't he intentionally give the > role to one of his closest friends as a gesture of good faith? I bloomin' well hope not! He really will take after his father if he does that! > That this faith was betrayed was Peter's fault ? not James. Peter is responsible for his own treachery, yes. > > I can so picture this, from your own words.. > Harry, being told that DD suspected a traitor, insisted that > Hermione would never betray him. Harry, having been told that > Dumbledore was so worried he himself was willing to act as Secret > Keeper, agreed to let the Secret Keeper be Ronald Weasley/ Rubeus > Hagrid.Harry trusted his own judgement so highly that he chose to > trust his friend over Albus Dumbledore. And Harry would be an idiot who has learnt nothing from the past four years. What Harry *should* have learnt is that people are not what they seem, that close families don't necessarily trust their own brother not to betray them (Ron and Percy, anyone?), that his father was betrayed by a friend, that adults he trusts can prove to be deadly enemies. (And that adults he hates will risk their lives to save him. But he doesn't seem to have registered that one yet.) Oh, and that his judgement is actually pretty crappy; so far Harry has yet to pick the right villain. > ErrolOwl > That's why you have close friends. If you can't have faith in > them, or you keep doubting them, the friendship is doomed. James > was willing to trust his friends with his life..that should be a > good thing. Let me see. James, dead. Lily, dead. House, in rubble. Black, framed and banged up in Azkaban. Lupin, thinking his closest friend was a traitor. Harry, having to live with the Dursley's. No, I don't think James's willingness to trust his friends with his life *was* a good thing. [grin] A little healthy suspicion would have worked wonders. > ErrolOwl: > Besides, > James did give his life for his family. And so he should, after personally hand picking Voldemort's agent as Secret Keeper. In those circumstances volunteering to be the rear guard is the *least* you can do [grin]. > > Nothing personal, Pip...just felt very sorry for James after > reading your post! ;-) > > Errol ;-) I'll let you into a secret. ;-) James isn't real. He's a character in a book. You don't *need* to feel sorry for him. But shhhh! Don't tell the rest of the list. My reputation for treating-characters-as-if-they-were-real and only-considering-things- from-an-internal-viewpoint will be *ruined*. Pip!Squeak From lupinesque at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 00:29:48 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 00:29:48 -0000 Subject: Lily's height WAS Harry has TWO parents In-Reply-To: <000a01c2c8a6$798857a0$f2b45a42@falcon> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51188 I'd like to submit my subject line, "Lily's height," to the Most Trivial Canon Question contest. Thank you, thankyouverymuch. Falcon wrote: >According to the HP Lexicon, Lily's build is tall and thin. Just >like James. So, we have two tall parents. Hey, I'm the first to say Lexicon Steve is a god, but he's the first to say he isn't one. The author of the rightly esteemed Lexicon is a real live person and member of this list, and he gets his information from the same place we do. Sometimes, like us, he gets it a little mixed up. Can anyone find a canon basis for Lily's height? Amy Z From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Fri Jan 31 00:48:37 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 00:48:37 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore, house points, and sportsmanship Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51189 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999 " wrote: > The House Championship is not about that modern concept > "boosting self-esteem." The point is not to teach all the children > to think of themselves as winners. It would be a remarkably > wrong-headed way to do that, since only one quarter of the > students can win. No, it is supposed to teach those > old-fashioned virtues, sportsmanship and fair play. The fine art, > that is, of letting the best man win. I'm quite sure that "sportsmanship and fair play" do not include gratuitously humiliating the losers in public. > As usual in Rowling, the situation at the end of PS/SS is more > complicated than it appears to be. Harry's team is not in last > place because of the points lost in saving Norbert. It is in last > place because he "missed the last Quidditch match--we were > steamrollered by Ravenclaw without you." In other words, they were behind due to circumstances that weren't even Slytherin's fault -- yet you're claiming that the Slytherins should've ceded their claim to the cup on the grounds that *if* circumstances had fallen out differently, Gryffindor *might* have won? I must say this is the first time I've ever heard anyone claim that good sportsmanship requires the first-place team to step down on the ground that the last-place team was hampered by injuries. > This is *important.* Playing against Seeker-less Gryffindor, > Ravenclaw could have amassed enough points to clinch the > House Championship for themselves. They don't, because it > wouldn't be sporting to use Harry's absence to take advantage, > even of Slytherin. This is pure speculation. First of all, we don't know that the Gryffindors played without a Seeker. If they did, it's because Oliver Wood didn't bother to train a reserve, which is his own damn fault. Second of all, the QWC has amply demonstrated that even the world's most brilliant Seeker won't do you any good if your Chasers are sufficiently outmatched. The Gryffindors still had their Chasers, their Beaters and their Keeper. How do you know that the Ravenclaws didn't bust their brainy little butts trying to score more points, but failed because they couldn't get the Quaffle past Wood? How do you know that Cho (or whoever was playing Seeker for Ravenclaw that year) didn't desperately pounce on the Snitch at the first opportunity because she was afraid that if she waited, Angelina and Katie might put the game out of reach? There's no canon to suggest that the Ravenclaws nobly refrained from scoring as many points as they possibly could. > If Harry had played against Ravenclaw, he could have easily > won the 160 points needed to beat Slytherin, and Slytherin > knows this. Still, they not only cling to their false victory > (instead of offering to cede the Cup, as Cedric offered to cede > the Tri-wizard Cup to Harry), they glory in it. How was their victory false? Gryffindor lost to Ravenclaw because one of their players was injured -- that's a normal part of sports competition. If Harry had tripped down the stairs and broken his ankle the day before the game, would you have expected Slytherin to give up first place because of that? > I suspect it's only us grown-ups who need to assure ourselves > that Slytherin *really* deserved defeat. Children know a moral > illustration when they see one, and are quite happy to see the > good triumph and the bad punished. > > Pippin I'm afraid I don't share your faith in the innate moral superiority of children. In my experience, most children are quite happy to see themselves and people they like triumph, and to see people they don't like punished, regardless of who's actually right or wrong. I have trouble imagining any kid coming out of that hall thinking, "Gosh, Slytherin could've avoided this humiliation if they'd only forfeited in a properly sportsmanlike manner." More likely, they came out thinking, "Wow, Dumbledore really stuck it to those slimy snakes! Cool!" (Unless they were Slytherin, in which case they came out thinking, "Dumbledore sucks.") If any student drew a moral lesson from that, I'd expect it to be something along the lines of "if people you don't like suffer a defeat, it's okay to rub their noses in it." > Eileen: > >>Really, this is a game. Why should anyone be at fault > for Harry not being about to win, any more than the > team who wins the Stanley Cup should feel bad about > the losing team's star player being injured and out of > the line-up? > > Where does morality come into this story?<< > > PoA ch. 9: "Diggory got the Snitch," said George. "Just after you > fell. He didn't realize what had happened. When he looked back > and saw you on the ground, he tried to call it off. Wanted a > rematch. But they won fair and square..." This is a completely different situation, though, from the end of CoS. In this case, Harry was injured *during* the game, due to outside interference. (Note that even the super-virtuous Cedric didn't offer to forfeit the game -- he offered a *rematch*, something the Slytherins in CoS were not in a position to do. And even then, the rematch request was denied because everyone, even the Gryffindors themselves, recognized that the Hufflepuff victory was legitimate. In CoS, Harry was injured *before* the game, due to circumstances that had nothing to do with Quidditch. I follow a number of sports, and the standard is always the same: if you're injured and can't play, you forfeit and your opponent wins. (Or, in the case of a team sport, your team has the option of replacing you or playing without you.) The only exceptions are cases where the injury was caused by someone attempting to influence the outcome of the competition (like the attacks on Nancy Kerrigan or Monica Seles), but that wasn't the case with Harry's injury. And yes, if the uninjured opponent is feeling paticularly altruistic, they may offer to postpone the competition; but that was up to Ravenclaw, not Slytherin. Under no circumstances, however, do the rules of good sportsmanship require the winning party to forfeit. This is true even in cases of deliberate attack -- Seles' opponent did not forfeit the match when Seles was stabbed. And I think it would be particularly unfair to expect it of the Slytherins, who weren't even part of the final match -- they were merely waiting on the outcome. Expecting them to forfeit on the basis of what might've happened if Harry had played is unreasonable. We don't know what might've happened. Yes, Gryffindor may have scored a lot more points, but Ravenclaw may have scored more too. If the game was sufficiently close and high-scoring, Ravenclaw may have won the House Cup even if Gryffindor won the game. So even if the Slytherins, if a fit of remarkable group altruism, decided to cede first place, they'd have had no way of knowing whom they should be ceding it *to.* Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From drednort at alphalink.com.au Fri Jan 31 01:04:22 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 12:04:22 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and respect In-Reply-To: References: <3E390DF8.6385.3A54E68@localhost> Message-ID: <3E3A6646.30240.31E0409@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 51190 On 30 Jan 2003 at 18:12, pippin_999 foxmoth at qnet.com wrote: > Shaun said: > > >>Even if I accept that's true - and I do to an extent - even if I > accept that Hermione is a soldier, for that to even start to excuse > Snape's behaviour, he'd have to be a drill instructor. > I don't believe he is. He's a teacher. She is a school girl. A > teacher should *never* lose sight of that, even if the child > does.<<< > > You're referring, perhaps, to the incidents when Hermione set > Snape on fire, broke into his office and helped knock him > unconscious? If they were both adults, I'd say she had it coming. > Well, I'm not sure Snape knew about the setting him on fire, and I'm pretty sure he thinks Harry did the break in. So those two don't count. (-8 'If they were both adults, I'd say she had it coming.' Yes, possibly. But they're not. He's an adult, she's a child - and more significantly, IMHO, he's a teacher, and she is one of his pupils. > Now, it's clear that Snape has no appetite for children, and in the > real world he shouldn't be teaching. But the Potterverse isn't the > real world, it's a place where the adult world contains Beings like > Hags, whose appetite for children is of quite a different sort Yes, and I actually don't think it's fair to make precise comparisons between the Wizarding world and our own. Their treatment of children does seem different - few schools in our world expose kids to potentially deadly detentions. But from what we have seen, Snape's treatment of certain pupils is *not* normal teaching practice at Hogwarts. Even given the differences we have seen, that is an aberration. > Stories with a child protagonist can be as shallow as > Scooby-Doo or as profound as Twain, but seldom will you find > that the child's victory depends on anybody taking pity on the > child for childhood's sake. Usually, when an adult takes pity on a > story-child, it's a Very Bad Sign (cf. the witch in Hansel and > Gretel). The adult will in the end prove to be ineffectual if not > actually villainous. To have it otherwise would make the adult > rather than the child into the protagonist -- Greek *proto* first, > agonistes, actor, combatant, (from *agonizesthai*, to contend, > from *agonia*, contest, from *agon*, from *agein*, to drive, lead. I didn't expect Snape to show Hermione an ounce of pity. Ideally, what I would have liked to have seen is what he did with Goyle in the same situation, a moment earlier. "Snape examined Goyle, whose face now resembled something that would have been at home in a book on poisonous fungi. 'Hospital wing, Goyle.' Snape said calmly." No pity there, no fuss, no obvious compassion. Simply an assessment of the situation and a calm, sensible instruction. But as to the literary construction - I understand how that goes, and I can fully accept that JKR had a valid literary purpose in making Snape the way he is. And the disgust and anger I feel about Snape's actions in that scene are an indication of her success. The books *would* be different if Snape was a different person - and I might not like the books as much. But I think there is a real and obvious distinction between *liking* a character as a literary construct, and *liking* the same character as a person. > As to your other point, Snape *is* The Trio's drill instructor, in a > sense--his antagonism does much to force the Trio into a unit in > Book One. And while 14 year old Hermione does indeed need a > space where she doesn't have to be a soldier, a corridor full of > Slytherins, one of whom has threatened her life more than once, > is not it. I just disagree. Snape is not their drill instructor in any sense. McGonnagall fills that role. Snape's job, his role, is to teach them one subject - no more than that. McGonnagall and Dumbledore as head of house and head of school have more responsibilities than that. That's a personal opinion, of course. And I think a school corridor on a normal school day is a place any child is entitled to feel safe and protected. It won't always happen - but a teacher should always be responsible for doing what they can to ensure it does. > Even if Hermione learns from this that she shouldn't rely on > Snape, or any of her teachers, to protect her--that may have been > his intention or part of it. Two of Hermione's teachers have > proved to be less than protective, to say the least. It is already > clear at the time of the incident that something is once again > rotten in the state of Hogwarts, and that no student could have > confunded the Cup. I can't see that as his intention. I can put down the other incidents of his cruelty to having that motivation as a possibility - but not this one. This one is different, IMHO. The fact that two of Hermione's teachers have proven to be serious liabilities simply makes Snape's actions less understandable to me. She already knows teachers cannot be trusted 100% - and that's a lesson she needed to learn. Snape is a position to know that she has learned that lesson. He knows about her dealings with Quirrel and with Lockhart (and I would suspect he'd add Lupin to that list as well) - he has every reason to know that she understands the flaws of those who teach. He doesn't need to ram it down her throat. > As to all that goes on in Snape's head I couldn't begin to guess, > but I will submit a LOLLIPOPS apologia for Snape's behavior in > this scene. He has once again arrived just too late to prevent a > Muggle-born witch from taking a curse meant for Harry Potter. OK... if that is true, I *might*, just *might* be able to forgive him. If his reaction was one born of frustration at his falure to save someone who he thinks he should be saved, or born of guilt, or of memories of the past that welled up inside him, I could *maybe* have a little sympathy for the man in this case. Still unacceptable, but less than deliberate cruelty. But I find that hard to credit - because of this: "Snape looked coldly at Hermione, then said, 'I see no difference.'" That pause. For me to grant him sympathy, I have to assume he had enough self-control that none of his feelings were apparent in his face or manner at all - but not enough to stop himself making that comment. I find that duality *very* hard to credit. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From snorth at ucla.edu Fri Jan 31 01:07:19 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 17:07:19 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House points and Dumbledore References: Message-ID: <00b301c2c8c5$1b2642c0$d3447442@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 51191 Errol: <> Me: You know, it reading this, it occurs to me that Dumbledore never says who wins the house cup before awarding points to HRH and Neville; He only says that the "House Cup needs awarding" and preceeds to ramble off the number of points each house has. There is nothing in /canon/ that proves that Dumbledore put up Slytherin's colors before the feast began. Really, there's nothing in canon that says who did it. It could have been that someone jumped the gun; it could have just been tradition that the hall was decorated with whoever was in first place at the beginning of the feast. But, once again, just in case you missed it the first time; Dumbledore never said that Slytherin had won. Frankly, all you people in the 'big bad headmaster' (or bad ol' headmaster if you're Tweety-bird) camp are blowing this way out of proportion. In a thousand years, I doubt it was the first time points were awarded at the leaving feast. -Scott (who will once again, for the record, state that he's not an idealist) From kristen at sanderson-web.com Fri Jan 31 01:10:22 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (gkjpo ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 01:10:22 -0000 Subject: Sirius Black's Hide-Out In-Reply-To: <005f01c2c890$83095d30$2101a8c0@ACTIONSTEEL.COM> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51192 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve Binch" wrote: >> What I'm suggesting (I don't believe it myself, but it does seem possible) > is that Sirius is hiding out at the Riddle house with his old pal Voldemort. > That is why he doesn't want Hedwig coming back, and that is why > head-in-the-fire communication is used. > > Any thoughts? Further speculation? Previous discussion? > > -Steve I don't believe this could be true. We know he went somewhere tropical (i.e. not the Riddle House) during the summer because of the tropical birds. But also, if he HAD gone to the Riddle House, I believe we would have received some indication of it (a clue to it) during Voldemort's rebirth. I believe that he could not have helped himself - he would have mentioned it or at least provided some mysterious clue since he was planning to kill Harry anyway. Also, I would point out that when H/R/H were visiting him at the cave in GoF, he was genuinely confused about the mark on Snape's arm and seemed, in general, very uninformed about life in the Dark Side. I am certain that anyone on this list could twist any of these facts if they wanted to :), but I still believe that Sirius is a good guy. Kristen From snorth at ucla.edu Fri Jan 31 01:26:07 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 17:26:07 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House points and Dumbledore References: <20030130194515.10086.qmail@web40506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00c301c2c8c7$bb92c380$d3447442@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 51193 Maria: > I was really sorry for Slytherin at the end of PS. Not only did they lose in such a "humiliating" way, but even more - >*everybody* is incredibly happy to see Slytherin lose. I don't think anyone deserves that. Me: Sorry, I'm in rapid fire post mode I think. Anyway, did anyone stop to contemplate that there was a very good reason that everyone /wants/ to see Slytherin lose? I mean, if Hufflepuff had won the house cup seven years in a row (btw, did anyone check to see if that seven was right? I know that Slytherin won the quidditch cup for seven years running, but I can't recall if it was seven for the house cup as well), would anyone have cared? I'm sure people wouldn't have been unhappy to see somebody else win it, but would the degree of exaltation been the same? We have no way of knowing for sure, but somehow I doubt it. If Slytherin was composed of students who were all great guys/girls and gracious winners, would anyone have given they're right arm to see Slytherin lose? I doubt it. And before you say that I'm stereotyping Slytherin, let's have a look at all of the Slytherins, past and present, who have been introduced into the series. I'll categourize them as "Jerks" and "Not Jerks." Jerks: Draco Malfoy, Lucius Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, Pansy Parkinson, Marcus Flint (really anyone on the Slytherin Quidditch Team), Millicent Bullstrode, Severus Snape, VOLDEMORT. Not Jerks: ... Now, I have a selective memory, so if I've forgotten anyone who we know was in Slytherin (canon only! not your weak marauder fantasies!), who can be construed as "Not Jerk" in anyway, please call me on it. Okay, now, I'm not totally against there being a Not Jerk Slytherin. I'm sure that out of all of them, there may be several who are not jerks. Clearly however, they are a minority. I truly believe that if JKR had wanted us to know that there were a large majority of Slytherins who weren't jerks, she would have at LEAST introduced us to one Slytherin who was not a jerk. Note, I'm not saying jerk == evil. Obviously, Snape fights the good fight, but he's still obviously a composite of every a**hole that JKR has ever had the pleasure of meeting (especially the subset of teachers), which indicates that not everyone can be Gandalf, Aragorn, or Samwise. -Scott PS A lot of the posts defending Snape (and Draco) over the past few days have piqued my curiosity. Snape-defenders: do you stick up for Wormtongue and other slimy folks in literature in movies? Do you say to your friends "Grima was a good guy! He just hung around with the wrong crowd!" From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Fri Jan 31 01:26:30 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 01:26:30 -0000 Subject: Harry has TWO parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51194 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "errolowl > > > ErrolOwl > > That's why you have close friends. If you can't have faith in > > them, or you keep doubting them, the friendship is doomed. James > > was willing to trust his friends with his life..that should be a > > good thing. > > Let me see. James, dead. Lily, dead. > House, in rubble. > Black, framed and banged up in Azkaban. > Lupin, thinking his closest friend was a traitor. > Harry, having to live with the Dursley's. > > No, I don't think James's willingness to trust his friends with his > life *was* a good thing. The fact that James' decisions in this case led to bad consequences does not mean that the decision itself was wrong. We've seen at least two instances where Harry definitely did the right thing, yet the results were disastrous. He kept Sirius and Lupin from killing Pettigrew, which led to Pettigrew escaping and bringing back Voldemort. He chose to share the House Cup with Cedric, which led directly and almost immediately to Cedric's death. Sometimes you do what's right and it works out badly, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do what's right the next time. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From susannahlm at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 01:29:47 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 01:29:47 -0000 Subject: Harry has TWO Parents Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51195 Pip wrote a lot of truly brilliant things ("'Lily', in the language of flowers, means 'pure'." Squee!) which I shall now--sadly--snip, as I want to address a rather specific point here. >From Pip's post: >I don't know whether or not James had the sense to react to putting >a person's life in direct danger. I do know that James's best friend >didn't have the sense to *not* put a person's life in direct danger. >Further, nearly twenty years later he's still insisting that Snape >deserved to become a moonlight snack. The only different things >appears to be that a)there are no other marauders around to stop >Lupin and b) James has learnt about this from someone other than >Sirius. I'm presenting you with a theory that it is b), not a) that >was important, and the 'someone' was Lily. Well, really, when you think about it, who *else* could it have been? Sirius? Obviously not, since James heard from someone else. Lupin? He wasn't even *in* on it. Peter? *Long pause.* Hmmm. No, I really don't think so. I'm trying to imagine Sirius telling him, and I'm not sure that I see why he would. If Prank (Derannimer keeps a watchful eye on the gamboling creature down at the other end of the beach) was an act of impulse, and *not* a plan, then I don't really think he'd tell anyone. Why bother? And if it *was* a plan, then why would he tell *Peter?* Peter, who was never terribly competant (at least, not that Good Guys knew of). Peter, who wasn't a particularly powerful wizard. Peter, who, I strongly suspect, would have started *snivelling* about the whole *idea.* [. . . "Sirius, I don't think we should be doing this! What if we get caught, Sirius? What if he finds out and hexes us? He knows all sorts of Dark Magic, I don't think we should--" "*Shut* it, Peter! We're not going to get caught! And I certainly think I can handle *Snape!* And anyway. . . "] Ahem. Yes. Well. Sorry about that. Anyway, I really don't see why he would have told Peter. And also, who *cares* if it was Peter that tipped James off? Where's the Bang in that? There's been no relationship shown of any kind between Peter and Snape; and the relationship between Peter and James is about Banged out. (If there is such a thing.) So, no. I don't think it was Peter. So who does that leave, other than Lily? Derannimer (who read a goofy "Lily really was responsible for saving Snape's life" fic somewhere once, and hated it. But who thinks, now she comes to think about it, that Lily probably *was.* And who also thinks that it could be done well, with a little less of the LOLLIPOPS.) From snorth at ucla.edu Fri Jan 31 01:33:45 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 17:33:45 -0800 Subject: House points and Dumbledore References: Message-ID: <00cd01c2c8c8$cc56cc10$d3447442@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 51196 Tom: > So, I suppose that we're to assume that Quirrell is > *more* agile and better on a broom than Harry? Harry, > after all, only had to catch the "limping" key, and > if we're to assume that Quirrell damaged it, then we > have to assume that he had to catch it in top form. Me: Ah, once again, I match wits with Tom again. (by the way, you made good points in your last "Snape is rational" post; I'm done with that topic however; I think the rest of the group must be sick of me by now) Your point made me wonder how hard catching the key really was, at first (I had thought about it before). But, we've seen that Quirrel is not an incompetent wizard, and he has Voldemort's power backing him. What am I talking about? You only assume that Quirrel actually used a broom to catch the key! I don't think it would be a stretch to say he pointed his wand at the big fat silver key, and said "ACCIO" and the key flew into his hand. That's not too much of a stretch, is it? -Scott (of course, that would make me agree with Tom on this point: that particular challenge was a 'lame' one. All it takes is some outside-the-box thinking. Not seeing the broomsticks, and assuming that the only way to catch the key was to use a broomstick) From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Jan 31 01:35:34 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 19:35:34 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and respect/Characters you hate References: Message-ID: <012001c2c8c9$0d2f4aa0$749ecdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 51197 Melpomene wrote: > was extremely blatant favouritism. Sure, it was wonderful to see it > happen, and I do think that 150 points McGonagall took off Gryffindor > were excessive, and that scene never fails to bring tears to my eyes, > but it *was* demoralizing for *all* non-Gryffindor students, and it > was demoralizing to Snape. I've always thought that 150 points was excessive, although as a teacher, it's something I'd be likely to do. Already upset about rule breaking (by her own students, no less), and then one of them catches an attitude. Of sorts. I maintain to this day that if any one of Malfoy and co. would've opened their mouths with a "fifty?" when they were dressed up as dementors, she'd have taken 50 each from them too. Though on the same teacher kick, I have issues with the whole point system in general. Moving right along: Oryomai said: > Okay, my new question of the day (I do this at school every day): Everyone > has strong feelings about certain characters *coughSnapecough*; are there any > characters that you hate for no reason? You just read about them and think > "Geez...I really don't like them!" but aren't really sure why? Fleur. I can't stand her. I don't know why. I just plain can't stand her. Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Fri Jan 31 01:42:33 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 01:42:33 -0000 Subject: House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: <00cd01c2c8c8$cc56cc10$d3447442@xyrael> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51198 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Scott Northrup" wrote: > Ah, once again, I match wits with Tom again. (by the way, you made good > points in your last "Snape is rational" post; I'm done with that topic > however; I think the rest of the group must be sick of me by now) > > Your point made me wonder how hard catching the key really was, at first (I > had thought about it before). But, we've seen that Quirrel is not an > incompetent wizard, and he has Voldemort's power backing him. > > What am I talking about? You only assume that Quirrel actually used a broom > to catch the key! I don't think it would be a stretch to say he pointed his > wand at the big fat silver key, and said "ACCIO" and the key flew into his > hand. > > That's not too much of a stretch, is it? > > -Scott > (of course, that would make me agree with Tom on this point: that particular > challenge was a 'lame' one. All it takes is some outside-the-box thinking. > Not seeing the broomsticks, and assuming that the only way to catch the key > was to use a broomstick) I suspect that objects that are under some kind of enchantment (flying keys) may not be susceptible to 'Accio' - I mean, it would make for a very boring Quidditch match, wouldn't it? (Accio Snitch!) Erica From starropal at hotmail.com Fri Jan 31 01:45:22 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 19:45:22 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who's more out of line? (WAS: Snape and respect) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51199 Tom wrote: >For everyone who got so upset over Snape's treatment of Hermione: >were you equally upset when Crouch/Moody turned Malfoy into a ferret >and started bouncing him around? > >Were you as shocked and angry as McGonagall, or, like Ron, did you >think it was farily amusing? I bet that some of us even thought that >Malfoy *deserved* it, didn't we? Okay I admit it, I thought Ferret!Draco was funny and was "upset" at the Hermione incident. BUT here are my reasons: Ferret!Draco - 1) It was just SO BIZARRE! I had to read that part twice. The mental imagery alone... how could it NOT be funny? I mean there's Draco being Draco and then *poof* he's a bouncy white ferret. 2) Instant karma for Draco. 3) At least someone called Moody!Crouch on it. McGonagall gets onto him about it. Not as sever a punishment he should have gotten for transfiguring and physically assaulting a student, but at least SOMETHING. Hermione teeth - 1) Snape's usual cruelty hits an all time low in my opinion. Completely bellow the belt, COMPLETELY uncalled for. 2) While Hermione isn't perfect she is, at that moment, an innocent bystander. 3) As_far_as_we_know (since this is from Harry's POV) Snape never has anything said to him about this. Never punished verbally or otherwise. So was what "Moody" did right? No. But for some reason what Snape said was, to me, in _MY_ opinion worse. When I read "I see no difference" I was genuinely angry. It was just mean, even by Snape standards. Star Opal who likes Crouch as Moody simply because Moody's so BIZARRE. Constant Vigilance! _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From snorth at ucla.edu Fri Jan 31 01:46:49 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 17:46:49 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House points and Dumbledore References: <00cd01c2c8c8$cc56cc10$d3447442@xyrael> Message-ID: <010301c2c8ca$9f7b4480$d3447442@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 51200 I WROTE: > What am I talking about? You only assume that Quirrel actually used a broom > to catch the key! I don't think it would be a stretch to say he pointed his > wand at the big fat silver key, and said "ACCIO" and the key flew into his > hand. > > That's not too much of a stretch, is it? If I'm breaking a rule by responding to myself, I apologize. It occurs to me as I'm reading that other people are coming up with my answers well before I am; I'd like to just apologize for previous instances (and for future instances). I've been just going through my inbox, replying where I feel I need to. So, er, Sorry. -Scott From tcyhunt at earthlink.net Fri Jan 31 01:40:35 2003 From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (tcyhunt ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 01:40:35 -0000 Subject: Who's more out of line? (WAS: Snape and respect) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51201 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall " wrote: > MELISSA (AND MANY OTHERS SIMILARLY) WROTE > RE: HERMIONE'S TEETH: > > The last straw for me came in GoF, chapter 18, when > Hermione's teeth are hit by a spell and grow past her > chin, and his only reaction is to say, "I see no > difference." That was cruel and unprofessional. Snape > is a teacher, an adult. It's one thing for Malfoy's > group and Harry's group to be tossing insults back and > forth, but he has a duty to be above that. No matter how > hard I try, I just can't like Snape. > > I REPLY: > I'm amazed and the number of people that jumped on this > thread all at once. When I posted my devil's advocacy bit > yesterday, there was only the original post. When I check > today, there're, well, WAY more than that. ;-) > > > So: > > For everyone who got so upset over Snape's treatment of Hermione: > were you equally upset when Crouch/Moody turned Malfoy into a ferret > and started bouncing him around? > > Were you as shocked and angry as McGonagall, or, like Ron, did you > think it was farily amusing? I bet that some of us even thought that > Malfoy *deserved* it, didn't we? my reply: I was much more tolerant of Crouch/Moody turning Malfoy into a ferret before I knew it was Crouch, Jr. *and* after! It was funny! Snape's treatment of Hermione in that instance just seemed cruel. I felt neither was an appropriate thing for a teacher to do - but, I chalked Crouch/Moody's actions up to Moody being so unconventional and (later, once revealed)Crouch, Jr. being *evil*. Another reason is that I hold Snape to a higher standard than Crouch, Jr. or Moody. Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with everything he does...but while I dislike some of his choices, Snape has my respect (and I think he will probably continue to have it as I learn more in the books to come - I hope). Tcy (of course, I reserve the right to change my mind as JKR often leaves me gobsmacked) From susannahlm at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 02:25:14 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 02:25:14 -0000 Subject: Characters you hate Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51202 Um. . . how are we defining "hate" here? Because as I read this thread, I am getting the distinct impression that. . . well. . . I'm not quite sure how to put this. Look, here's the thing. There are *plenty* of characters whose company I would not especially enjoy were I to meet them in real life. But I enjoy *reading* probably every single character in the books. And I've read people on this thread saying things that give me the impression that some people don't even like to *read* certain characters. I mean, for example, while I obviously would not like to meet Gilderoy Lockhart, I've always enjoyed reading his scenes. ("Books can be misleading," said Lockhart delicately.") But a lot of people here are saying that one character or another really *irritates* them; which I am taking to mean that they really don't enjoy reading them. So is this true? Because I've thought about it and I don't know if there's *any* character in HP that I don't enjoy reading--you know, any character whose presence in a scene really *irritates* me; so I guess maybe I don't hate *any* of the characters. Which hardly seems as if it can be right, somehow. I mean, I hate characters in *other* stories. Derannimer (who loves Cancer Man. And *loathes* Kricheck. (Which is probably misspelled.) The minute that little rat showed up, I hated him. Even when I (briefly) thought I was supposed to like him. I wanted to throw something--like maybe a candlestick--at his lousy face on the TV screen.) From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Fri Jan 31 02:26:49 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 21:26:49 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who's more out of line? (WAS: Snape and respect) Message-ID: <157.1b218477.2b6b38e9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51203 Tcy: > I was much more tolerant of Crouch/Moody turning Malfoy into a ferret > before I knew it was Crouch, Jr. *and* after! It was funny! Snape's > treatment of Hermione in that instance just seemed cruel. I felt > neither was an appropriate thing for a teacher to do - but, I > chalked Crouch/Moody's actions up to Moody being so unconventional > and (later, once revealed)Crouch, Jr. being *evil*. Another reason > is that I hold Snape to a higher standard than Crouch, Jr. or Moody. > Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with everything he does...but while > I dislike some of his choices, Snape has my respect (and I think he > will probably continue to have it as I learn more in the books to > come - I hope). Me: I agree with you here. I'm an avid Snape lover, but there are times when I'd like to slap him across the face. The teeth insult may have been uncalled for, but so was the ferret bouncing (funny as it was ^^). In these cases I think both Snape and Crouch!Moody are equally out of line, just on different levels. Crouch!Moody, I imagine, was bouncing Ferret!Draco around to physically hurt him/give him a bit of a shock. He was also publicly humiliating him AND going against Dumbledore's rules. In the incident with Snape...Hermione already feels humiliated. Snape just adds fuel to the fire. I think the Ferret thing is funny because, even though we know 'moody' to be a strange character, it's unexpected. With Snape I'm sure many of us we be suprised (even disappointed) if he hadn't said something cruel. If he just told Hermione to go to the hospital wing and then went on with class I would just seem...unSnapeish to me. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jferer at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 02:44:11 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 02:44:11 -0000 Subject: Cynicism and Betrayal in Canon Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51204 I apologize to those who have heard this rant before, but it's something that bugs me. It's not hard to find speculation here about Evil!Lupin, Evil!Dumbledore, Evil!McGonagall, Evil!Sirius, and so on; who did I miss? Someone, I'm sure. I find all these theories distasteful. Not those who propose them, of course, but the sad cynicism that pervades modern literature, entertainment, and attitude. If JKR ever did write Evil!Dumbledore, etc., it would be nothing less than the worst betrayal of readers ever by an author, and I could never forgive her for it. JKR writes for all readers, not just young ones, but many of her readers are young and she knows it. What attitude would that send to her readers? 1. People are no damn good. 2. Everyone will betray you sooner or later, so look out for yourself only. Get them before they get you. 3. Goodness and friendship is illusory; only evil is real. Loyalty is for chumps. I don't believe for one minute JKR is doing it. Let me repeat it: I don't think there is any chance JKR will betray her characters or her readers in that way. I only am talking here about main characters that have been the students' guardians and protectors. I have no beef with other characters being potential bad guys, like Evil!Fudge for example. I happen to think he's set up as an example of what happens when people lack the courage to act and thereby do evil's work, but if he was actively evil, that wouldn't be the same thing as one of the core characters betraying Harry or the Trio. This is a literary approach, a reading of JKR's themes and her values as I infer them, and doesn't depend on any quotes or perceived clues in the canon. I couldn't defend this based on canon text, either, and won't try. I don't believe I'm saying that the series has to be simplistic, like a Roy Rogers Saturday western, with the good guys in white hats and the villains in black ("You know what to do, boys"). We've already been given more nuance than in your average adult novel - despised Lupin, nasty but on-the-right-side Snape, the ambiguous Fudge, careless with the truth Skeeter, and more. We'll get more, but we will not get characters we've counted on and had faith in turning on the young people who trusted them. At least, I sure hope not. Jim Ferer From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Fri Jan 31 02:44:36 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 21:44:36 EST Subject: A Quick (well ... kinda) Snape Thought Message-ID: <34.3462f847.2b6b3d14@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51205 Okay, here's the thing: I've been reading all these posts about how Snape could be nice and how he's irrational and all this other stuff. But he's NOT. He's Snape. Wouldn't the book series be really boring if everyone were nice and good and true all the time? Snape adds a dimension to the books! Not everyone is gonna be nice to people - even when horrible things happen. Example (a tiny OT, but it serves a point): Recently, a girl's mother died. She's in band and choir with me. My friend Laura doesn't really like the girl. I asked if we were going to the funeral home and she said "No, we don't like Danica." (END STORY) Okay, here it is: Some people just aren't nice. I love Laura to death, but she can be evil. Snape-y at times. Snape is not a good guy. Snape is alot more complex than everyone is giving him credit for. But to understand, you can't read the books from the "Yeah! Go Harry!" cheerleader POV. You have to read objectively (yeah AP English!). If you can't believe that some things are more than what they seem, that's when *I* think you're reading the wrong book. Cuz that's what HP is about to me. Things aren't always that they seem. IMHO, of course. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ (Who absolutely *LOVES* all the Snape discussion, even if it's people bashing him, because it solidifies how she thinks of him!) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dorigen at hotmail.com Fri Jan 31 03:05:48 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 03:05:48 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cynicism and Betrayal in Canon Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51206 >JKR writes for all readers, not just young >ones, but many of her readers are young and she knows it. What >attitude would that send to her readers? > >1. People are no damn good. > >2. Everyone will betray you sooner or later, so look out for yourself >only. Get them before they get you. > >3. Goodness and friendship is illusory; only evil is real. Loyalty is >for chumps. I agree and I don't believe it either. After all, the attitudes above are those of Voldemort, the Malfoys, and the Death Eaters. If their attitudes are vindicated by being adopted by the Good Guys, then the whole buildup of good vs. evil which is at the heart of the books has been a sham -- to quote Snape, "I see no difference." (By the way, this clear description of the opposition strengthens my belief that if Fudge isn't evil yet, he will be. He seems to be following points 2 and 3 already, and it's probably going to get worse in Book 5.) Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From gundum_gurl700 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 03:00:27 2003 From: gundum_gurl700 at yahoo.com (Leslie Douglas) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 19:00:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Characters You Hate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030131030027.20999.qmail@web9403.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51207 Oryomai asked: > Everyone has strong feelings about certain characters > *coughSnapecough*; are there any characters that you > hate for no reason? You just read about them > and think "Geez...I really don't like them!" but aren't > really sure why? >>>>> Well...yeah. Though I'll have to beg no one to send me anything nasty after they read this but... I hate Harry Potter. I love the books they're positively grand but something about the "boy who lived" just gives me a headache. "Leslie" From dorigen at hotmail.com Fri Jan 31 03:31:46 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 03:31:46 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who's more out of line? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51208 > >Were you as shocked and angry as McGonagall, or, like Ron, did you > >think it was farily amusing? I bet that some of us even thought that > >Malfoy *deserved* it, didn't we? Absolutely. The passage that conveys my feeling about the whole scene: "Moody! How cool is he?" "Beyond cool." "Supercool." I gather from what's been said here that my beliefs on the occasional apppropriateness of corporal punishment are not shared by all, and I have no problem with that, but I think that one's attitude on that subject colors one's appreciation (or lack thereof) of the episode. My opinion: No way did Malfoy not deserve what he got. It's perfectly true that if "Moody" was acting contrary to school policy and knew this (I don't remember whether he said he didn't know or not -- and of course "Moody" might have lied), he was wrong in that respect. I also think that we, the reader, were supposed to notice this as a clue that all was not right with Moody. If so, I missed it entirely. :) By the way, I suspect that the fake Moody is very like the real one in many ways -- otherwise he couldn't have fooled people like Dumbledore who knew the real one. Personally, I hope we get to see the real Moody sometime, whether at Hogwarts or elsewhere (probably elsewhere; I don't think Hogwarts would be ready for the real Moody after what went on with Crouch ...) Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From grace701 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 03:09:09 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (GRACE701 ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 03:09:09 -0000 Subject: Who's more out of line? (WAS: Snape and respect) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51209 Jo Serenadust: "Not at all. I never meant to say that I thought Crouch's treatment of Draco praiseworthy, just entertaining. We don't know at this point in the story that he is going to kill his father, and wants Harry dead.Of course in hindsight, Crouch's actions take on a whole new level of meaning. At that point in the story though I (and I assume everyone else) thought that he *was* actually Mad-Eye Moody, auror extrordinaire, with rather unconventional, but effective disciplinary methods. At the time the incident took place, of course I assumed his motives were to help Harry, AND teach Draco a lesson. That's what's so brilliant about the whole passage. It makes perfect sense as far as what we expect Moody to do, as well as when we find out that Moody is really the patricidal death-eater, Crouch, Jr. I'm pretty sure I'm reading the right book. This being the WW with its warrior ethos, I don't perceive physical injury the same way I would in a story that takes place in the "real world". If the book were "A Separate Peace" or any other school setting story, I'd be appalled at a teacher who physically punished a student, even one as rotten as Draco Malfoy. However, at Hogwarts broken bones, vanished bones, and transplanted facial features are no big deal, and Draco isn't seriously hurt in any way (although I expect he did have some bruises). So what wouldn't be at all funny in a different kind of setting, is IMO quite amusing in this one." I agree with Jo Serenadust, at that point in the book, we were lead to believe that Mad Eye Moody was "the" Mad Eye Moody. We had known from the beginning that he was a strange man, so his actions toward Draco were just part of his crazy personality. Draco needed to be punished at some point. He was getting out of hand, consistently bothering Harry, Ron, Hermione and who knows who else. Turning him into a ferret and bouncing him up and down was wrong and unethical. But come on, weren't SOME OF YOU waiting for the day that Draco would receive his just deserves. I know I was. I enjoyed what "Mad Eye Moody" did and laughed. I even read that part again and again. That punishment may not be allowed in real life, but this is a book after all and it is a wizarding world where anything goes. Greicy From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 03:40:07 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 03:40:07 -0000 Subject: Green Eyes in the Mirror (Was: Harry has TWO parents) In-Reply-To: <000a01c2c8a6$798857a0$f2b45a42@falcon> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51210 Pip wrote: Dumbledore seems to go out of his way in PoA Ch.22 [p.312 UK hardback] to point out to Harry (at a moment when he's telling him how like his father he is) that Harry is not *exactly* like his father. He has his mother's eyes. I add: This is also supported by the passage about the Mirror of Erised. --- She was a very pretty woman. She had dark red hair and her eyes - HER EYES ARE JUST LIKE MINE, Harry thought, edging a little closer to the glass. Bright green - exactly the same shape, but then... [emphasis converted from italics] (PS/SS 208) --- But then, it continues: --- Harry was so close to the mirror now that his nose was nearly touching that of his reflection. "Mom?" he whispered. "Dad?" They looked at him, smiling. And slowly, Harry looked into the faces of the other people in the mirror, and saw OTHER PAIRS OF GREEN EYES LIKE HIS, other noses like his, even a little old man who looked as though he had Harry's knobbly knees - Harry was looking at his family, for the first time in his life. The POTTERS smiled and waved at Harry and... [emphasis is mine] (PS/SS 209) --- Thank you, Mirror of Erised. So, the obvious question: green eyes, say what? If Harry's eyes are his mother's, as he's seen himself in the mirror, AND been TOLD, then why does he see "other pairs [plural] of green eyes like his" in the POTTER family?" Okay we'll get my one potential objection out there right away - The Mirror of Erised *could* only be an idealized version of Harry's family as he'd like to see them, ala "I show not your face but your heart's desire." In other words, his family *might* not look like that at all. Except I'll save y'all the time and refute my own objection by pointing out that when Harry sees pictures of his parents later on, he doesn't ever observe that they're different from the images in the mirror. AND, Dumbledore still told him that he had his mother's eyes, and why would Dumbledore lie? But, if that's the case, how does Harry know "before" he's told that his mother's eyes are just like his, well, that his mother's eyes are just like his? What could possibly account for green eyes (an ordinarily rare trait) being prevalent in the Potter family, quite independently of Lily Evans? And despite Harry's own observation that his eyes are like Lily's, if the trait was already in the Potter family, how are those eyes necessarily his mother's, except perhaps in shape? Only questions, no solutions. -Tom From dorigen at hotmail.com Fri Jan 31 03:57:17 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 03:57:17 +0000 Subject: Green eyes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51211 >They looked at him, smiling. And slowly, Harry >looked into the faces of the other people in the mirror, >and saw OTHER PAIRS OF GREEN EYES LIKE HIS, other noses >like his, even a little old man who looked as though he >had Harry's knobbly knees - Harry was looking at his >family, for the first time in his life. >The POTTERS smiled and waved at Harry and... Okay, it says "Potters," but that could just as easily refer to only James and Lily doing the waving. My impression is that the mirror showed Harry's entire family *on both sides.* His parents were in the front and foreground, and both his paternal and maternal relatives were in the background. This would explain why he saw several people with green eyes -- they were his mother's relatives. Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From grace701 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 03:31:49 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (GRACE701 ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 03:31:49 -0000 Subject: Cynicism and Betrayal in Canon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51212 Jim wrote: "JKR writes for all readers, not just young ones, but many of her readers are young and she knows it. What attitude would that send to her readers? 1. People are no damn good. 2. Everyone will betray you sooner or later, so look out for yourself only. Get them before they get you. 3. Goodness and friendship is illusory; only evil is real. Loyalty is for chumps." Janet wrote: "I agree and I don't believe it either. After all, the attitudes above are those of Voldemort, the Malfoys, and the Death Eaters. If their attitudes are vindicated by being adopted by the Good Guys, then the whole buildup of good vs. evil which is at the heart of the books has been a sham -- to quote Snape, 'I see no difference.' (By the way, this clear description of the opposition strengthens my belief that if Fudge isn't evil yet, he will be. He seems to be following points 2 and 3 already, and it's probably going to get worse in Book 5.)" ------- IMO, Fudge is going to go bad. He doesn't seem to have any sense or thoughts of his own. He sent owls to Dumbledore asking for advice and has now turned his back on him when Dumbledore needs him most. So who is Fudge going to turn to now for advice? Maybe Voldemort will miraculously show up at his doorstep and give him a tip or two. And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't JK say that someone will betray Harry? Greicy From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 04:16:21 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 20:16:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Green Eyes in the Mirror (Was: Harry has TWO parents) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030131041621.46740.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51213 --- Tom wrote: > Except I'll save y'all the time and refute my own objection > by pointing out that when Harry sees pictures of his parents > later on, he doesn't ever observe that they're different > from the images in the mirror. AND, Dumbledore still told > him that he had his mother's eyes, and why would Dumbledore > lie? Because Harry DID live with his parents for more than a year, and thus has subconscious memories of them, probably very pleasant ones. If his greatest desire is to see them *again*, it only makes sense the Mirror would show him the image he remembers, deep inside. Now, if James had died before Harry was born and Lily died at his birth, I could understand the objection, but he still has memories, if not conscious ones. :) > What could possibly account for green eyes (an ordinarily > rare trait) being prevalent in the Potter family, quite > independently of Lily Evans? He also could have been generalizing. His name is Potter, therefore his family are the Potters. He certainly doesn't identify with the Dursleys, and he probably doesn't have any idea what his mother's maiden name is, if it's even occurred to him. I had the vague idea that my mother's last name had *always* been what it was until I was a teenager, probably. Just not something I thought about. Parents don't have lives, after all. *g* Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From urbana at charter.net Fri Jan 31 04:36:11 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 04:36:11 -0000 Subject: Characters you hate In-Reply-To: <012001c2c8c9$0d2f4aa0$749ecdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51214 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > > Okay, my new question of the day (I do this at school every day): Everyone > > has strong feelings about certain characters *coughSnapecough*; are there any > > characters that you hate for no reason? You just read about them and think > > "Geez...I really don't like them!" but aren't really sure why? > > Fleur. I can't stand her. I don't know why. I just plain can't stand her. > > Richelle > I'm not terribly fond of Fleur either. I know she was the Beauxbatons champion but she didn't impress me as being a particularly talented witch (other than her Veela talents, that is). However the person I truly despise is Cornelius Fudge. Need I count the reasons? I think we've discussed Fudge's failings in serious detail. Mostly I despise his refusal to countenance anything that would upset his own and the MOM's apple cart. His impulse is always to do what is easy, regardless of whether it's right. Anne U (who assumes there's a TBAY acronym that explains that Fudge isn't exactly Evil, more like venal and self-serving and officious and...) From renitentraven at hotmail.com Fri Jan 31 04:39:10 2003 From: renitentraven at hotmail.com (Lisa Armstrong ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 04:39:10 -0000 Subject: Hermione's parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51215 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "GRACE701 " wrote: > I would like to know more about Hermione's parents besides the fact > that they are Muggles and dentists. Could it be because of them > Hermione is an over-achiever, over-studious; an eccentrist period? > (Mind you she's my favorite character.) It would also be > interesting to have Harry and Ron visit her. Ron can finally see > how Muggles live and we can see the disasters that may occur from > this. I've also wondered about Hermione's parents, and their serious lack of presence in conversation. I wonder if it's because Hermione herself is indifferent to them, or is retaliating in a like way to a percieved indifference for her. Hermione strikes me as incredibly self-sufficient, but insecure, and I think Mum and Dad may have had a big role to play in that. I've got this vision of Hermione being raised by a team of hired help whilst Mum and Dad were busy career wise. The only canon reference I've found to *really* give a clue regarding the Granger's concern for Hermione's welfare is in GOF, when Hermione, in a furious state about Rita Skeeter tells Harry and Ron her parents don't read the Daily Prophet. I felt quite sad for the girl when I realised that her parents had witnessed first-hand the attitude towards Muggles in COS, yet didn't even keep up with current events in the WW. Added to this they just hand over money for her birthday (which falls in the school term) rather than repeat a trip to Diagon Alley to maybe involve themselves in her 12/13th in a more meaningful way. Even the Dursleys have opposed,albeit for the wrong reasons, Harry's holidays at the Weasleys, but Hermione never mentions any debates regarding her time away from them at the Dursleys. Even when she is with her folks all her letters mention her having a great time because she's found 'such and such', and it's relevant to her homework. Like you I'd love to see the boys visit Hermione at home, I'm keen to see if they learn a bit more than how to use a 'felly-phone'. Lisa (who worries for Hermione daily) From editor at texas.net Fri Jan 31 04:46:28 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 22:46:28 -0600 Subject: Oh, just loads of Snape stuff, from the many threads References: Message-ID: <009501c2c8e3$b87c9920$ac04a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 51216 Just this once, to shock everyone, I will combine posts. I can't do it too often or next they'll start expecting me to be *polite* or tolerate the Snape-is-a-vampire theory or something. Pippin said, re: a possible reason for Snape's behavior towards Hermione of the teeth: As to all that goes on in Snape's head I couldn't begin to guess, but I will submit a LOLLIPOPS apologia for Snape's behavior in this scene. He has once again arrived just too late to prevent a Muggle-born witch from taking a curse meant for Harry Potter. Me: Ah, Pippin, you know my leanings, but I can't give you this one. Snape is cold and matter of fact. I don't get any vibes of this sort from this scene. I think he's just being, as someone pithily put it, a right bastard. The lovely and usually silent Jo Serenadust said: I was upset by Snape's treatment of Hermione and can't see how anyone can justify Snape's behavior in this case. Although I find Snape an interesting character, I can never regard him as a good teacher (or decent human being, for that matter) because of his treatment of Hermione and Neville. Me: Jo, do not, and none of you should, confuse justification with explanation. I do not justify what he said/did. I try to *explain* it. And while my explanations of the intricate tickings of Snape's psyche "fit" to me, at no point would I say that what he did was appropriate. I can get to understandable. But don't think I approve. Scott said, re: who's more out of line: Look, the facts are Snape is cruel to Hermione for no real reason. Crouch!Moody is cruel to Draco because he was in violation of school rules, in a very serious manner. Me: Those are *some* of the facts. I maintain that the personal agendas/past histories of both men have much more to do with their actions in both these cases than anything that the students did. I think Snape is cruel to Hermione because (a) he doesn't like her because she's Harry's friend, and as such, is subject to the same projection he applies to Harry (i.e., she is one of James' friends); (b) he really is not emotionally engaged on the level where any sort of insult is anything to really give a second thought to; and a wide range of possible (c)s. Like because she's Muggleborn (note how often he picks on Hermione particularly, and how seldom he actually picks on Ron), or because she *is* a good student and for whatever reason, he cannot teach or foster this oasis of talent in the desert of regular students (whether because it would damage a "cover" or because his emotional projection prevents him, or some other reason)--he resents her for being, at the same time, talented and *not* someone to which he can impart what he clearly *is* passionate about. All that said, Snape had loads of motive behind what he said, that had absolutely nothing to do with what actually happened in the hallway. He asked, but he did not really care to listen. He was on autopilot. Okay. Moody. To quote you from above because I digressed on Snape (how unusual, that): "Crouch!Moody is cruel to Draco because he was in violation of school rules, in a very serious manner." Again, you discount the man's personal agenda. This is a Death Eater who lives and breathes to bring his master back so that master can seriously kick the asses of all the other Death Eaters who have *not* spent years being controlled by their own fathers and imprisoned in their own houses. Revenge. All things are for that goal. And here's Draco, son of Lucius, who has spent every night since Voldemort fell, free in his manor house eating gourmet food prepared by house-elves and sleeping between gently warmed sheets and NOT SEARCHING FOR HIS MASTER. I may be wrong, but I believe that this incident was one of the first, if not the first, times Crouch!Moody speaks to or sees Draco. Crouch!Moody must have been *delighted* that Draco gave him the opportunity to do this to him. He may even (I postulate without a shred of evidence) have Imperiused Draco to cast the curse in the first place--perhaps there was a very good reason Draco missed at that range, he was being directed to--giving himself a chance to inflict pain on the son of Lucius. This would serve a purpose, too, as well as being fun--his master does not, after all, need Draco, and Draco is a possible danger to Harry and should be controlled or subdued from the outset. Moody's skill leans to Imperius. But I digress again. My point is, that Moody may be better at playing the scenario logically, but I think he also had loads of motive behind what he did, that had absolutely nothing to do with what actually happened. Set aside for a moment whatever roles or responsiblities you attach to the term "teacher" (for depending on your point of view, it can cover everything from surrogate parent to simple imparter of information). In both these instances, and in most cases, we can't be judging either of these men on their merits as teachers, because neither man is there primarily to be a teacher. Snape is at Hogwarts for some reason or other--his own protection is the usual theory--but it's clear that it's not due to a burning desire to teach. His teaching is passing the time until the crisis for which he and Dumbledore have been preparing arises. And Crouch!Moody is also at Hogwarts for a primary reason that has nothing to do with teaching, and his teaching also is simply passing the time until his own preparations are ready. So there is no question (and no surprise) that neither behaved appropriately for a teacher; they each did, however, behave consistently with their characters and their own internal priorities. Oryomai said: Snape is alot more complex than everyone is giving him credit for. But to understand, you can't read the books from the "Yeah! Go Harry!" cheerleader POV. You have to read objectively (yeah AP English!). If you can't believe that some things are more than what they seem, that's when *I* think you're reading the wrong book. Me: I beg your pardon. Not one word, not one action, not one gesture, not one lifted eyebrow or intonation of voice by Snape in any of these books can be put down solidly to one motive. Every single thing he does or says has totally valid, completely different interpretations. Nothing associated with Snape has ever been explained fully; we've just been given hints of parts of it; he's potentially one of the most complex literary figures I've come across. Snape discussions are *rife* with hairsplitting in a vain attempt to solidly *give* the man a clear and simple motive for anything. If we've been reading the wrong book, you have clearly been reading the wrong list. And lastly, Scott, dear, I really want to give your response on rationality the thought (and rereading of that chapter) that it deserves, and so I hope to get to it this weekend. ~Amandageist, probably no longer premier but still Snapologist P.S.--To the best of my recollection I coined the term Snapologist, as for the longest time I was the loudest (read: most obnoxious) Snape apologist and the words merged to yield a pleasing double meaning. I believe Porphyria, Marina, and Gwen (off the top of my head, and doubtless forgetting several) are also Snapologists. Unlike L.O.O.N., this title can be assumed, but you must be prepared to defend your positions, postulates, theories, beliefs, and references. Liking Alan Rickman is optional but a good indication of your breeding and taste. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 05:05:44 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 05:05:44 -0000 Subject: House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51217 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall " wrote: > > STEVE bboy_mn WROTE: > > [Harry] at 11 years of age, with the help of his > friends, defeated the best protections the staff > of Hogwarts had to offer, not to mention solving > the mystery to the extent that they were even able > to get down into the enchanted chambers. > END QUOTE. > PREFACE: Tut, tut, tut Tom, you make a good argument, but having read the responses to this (the post I'm relying to) post, I have to say that you are out manned and out gunned. > I REPLY: > Steve, I really have to respectfully disagree ... > ...edited... In fact, the first time that I read PS/SS, > I thought that the stone's protections were pretty lame, > and that anyone could have gotten through them. > -end this part- bboy_mn: Oh really? Let's examine them. TOM: > -The trio did zero to beat Fluffy, as not only did > Hagrid gave them the answer, - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Fluffy is, in all likelihood, a Cerberus, a giant three headed hound from Hell that filled a large room from floor to ceiling; vicious and aggressive, and I have no doubt that a Hell Hound can be deadly. Let show all the 11/12 year olds at Howarts what's in that room; better yet let's show all the 11/12 year olds in the world, and let's see how many of them want to enter a room with a vicious three headed monster. Even if you tell them how to quell the monster, how many do you think will have the courage to enter that room and try? How many do you think would have the courage to risk their own lives to save a stone that didn't even belong to them? That was the greatness of their effort. Harry, Ron, and Hermione had the courage to enter that room knowing what was in there, knowing that there was a small chance that it would kill them before they had a chance to play a tune on the flute. Their selflessness, their own lives meant nothing when weight along side the greater good of all wizard-kind. Defeating Fluffy wasn't the true task, having the bravery, courage, selflessness and moral fiber to try, THAT was their accomplishment. TOM: > -Recognizing Devil's snare should be no big deal for > any experienced wizard, so no great shakes there. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Devil's Snare - a plant that saves your life after a fall that takes you miles under the school, then begins crushing you to death. [Sarcasm] Nope certainly no problem there.... accept that Harry and Ron were already lost when Hermione fell; in those few brief seconds, they were helplessly ensnared. If she hadn't recognised the danger immeditately and /struggled/ free, she would have been lost too. A majority of people who fell into this obscure and deadly plant, would have found it to be the last thing they ever did. Even after Hermione escape the Devil's Snare, she had to think long and hard to find a solution, and she had to do it while she was standing by watching her best friends die. It was actually Harry and Ron who gave Hermione the solution, but they couldn't have come up with the solution if Hermione's vast storehouse of knowledge hadn't give them the information they needed. It's called teamwork. As far as any experienced wizard recognizing this plant, I doubt it, but that's irrelevant, we are dealing with 11 year old kids. TOM: > > -They didn't even have to really think to figure out > what key opened the door, since the wings on the > correct key were already broken ... > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -The Enchanted Keys - First you have to be smart enough to understand the problem; to understand the nature of the obstacle before you. Then you have to figure out which of hundred of flying keys is the one you want. Ron did that by realizing that they should look for a key that matched the lock. How many wizards would have just started grabbing keys and trying them? Then you have to sort out a single key from a mass of hundreds of multicolored keys flying rapidly and randomly around a large chamber. Once you decided what the key should look like, and have spotted it then, assuming you can keep sight of it, you have to catch it. It's easy for you Tom, all you had to do was read it, but confronted with the severity of the situation, how long would it really take you to solve it without having the solution printed in a book in your hand? H/H/R succeed because of skill and teamwork. As far as the key with the bent wing, they didn't see that until they had determined what they had to do, determined what they were looking for, determined how they were going to find it, then determined how they were going to catch it, then attempt to catch it. Only then when they already had decided what they were looking for did the keen eyes of the youngest Seeker in a Century spot a key matching the description that had a bent wing. There could have been other keys with bent wings, keys that were injured in the struggle to get to the correct key. TOM: > -The only serious skill involved, ..., was Ron's chess game. > And even *that's* ridiculous, that he could beat McGonagall, if > chess is indeed, a strength of hers. > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -The Chess Set- Well, we can all speculate whether McGonagall is or isn't good at chess, and thereby conclude whether Ron is or isn't good at chess. But we do know for a fact that McGonagall is no idiot, she is certainly going to play to her strengths. This is common logic. She has been given the task of helping guard on of the most rare and precious magical artifacts in existance. Are we really to believe she treated this task casually, and place a mediocre obstacle in the way? I think not; I really think not. The most basic application of logic tells you she chose an obstacle that reflected one of her strengths. I personally feel to conclude otherwise is irrational. Ron played a good game of chess. Ron is a good chess play. Through out the four existing books there are several references to Ron playing chess, and he always wins. Can anyone think of an instance when he lost? But the critical thing is that he was selfless and brave enough to sacrifice his life for the greater good. He chose to sacrifice his life in a situation that very very few would have even had the courage to go into. No Dumbledore does not spell this out in detail when he awards the points, but he doesn't spell any of it out in detail. Regardless of what Dumbledore said, I was there, I saw him sacrifice himself for something far larger than himself. If that isn't the heart of a lion then I don't know what is. So, once again, let's play the same game we played with Fluffy, let's get all the 11/12 year olds in the school and tell them what they have to overcome in order to play a chess game who's consequences are unknown. Do you really think that if the Trio had lost, they could have just shrugged their shoulders and walked away? I don't think so. We aren't told what happens if they lose, but in challenges like this, tea and cookies is rarely the consequence of losing. TOM: > -And, for all his bravery (give credit where credit > is due, I say,) Harry's victory was also pretty > lame. ... Harry basically just stood there and held on. > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - bboy_mn: You really don't get it do you? Harry wasn't rewarded because he 'held on', he was rewarded because, in the face of hopeless odds and certain death, he had the courage to step forward and GRAB HOLD AND KEEP HOLDING despite excruciating pain, despite knowing he could never win, despite being a skinny little knobbly kneed boy. He was rewarded because he had the skill and fortitude to get there, and once there he had the strength of character to stand toe-to-toe with a full grown wizard and a great force of evil, and fight for what was right, right up to his last dying breath if need be. TOM: > And for *that*, Dumbledore awarded Gryffindor enough > points to win the House Cup? Hogwash. And timing? I'm > 100% with Elkins and Maria here. *Humiliating* is not > the word for what Dumbledore did to the Slytherins. > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - No, not for *that*, but for skill, fortitude, courage, bravery, selflessness, strength of character, and moral fiber. Not just for what they did there, but for having the courage to be there. For having the courage to fight the good fight against hopeless odds. Uuhhh.... and exactly what was it again that Slytherin did that was so great? Oh yeah, played Quidditch. > > STEVE bboy_mn WROTE: > Not to mention that their hard work consists of > lying, cheating, and doing anything they can accept > actually earning it, to achieve their ends. > END QUOTE. > TOM: > I REPLY: > There is nothing to support that in canon. > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Nothing other than the general consensus of the other school houses. Nothing other than Slytherins behavior in the hallways, in the classroom, and on the Quidditch pitch. Nothing other than the endlessly repeated rumor that Snape favors his own house. Nothing other that Snapes vicious vindictive and down right mean treatment of Gryffindors. Nothing other that Snape being so blatantly unfair as to be tragically laughable. Nothing other than Draco's endless effort to humilitate Harry. Nothing other than Draco faking an injure (after a true injury was healed) to get Hagrid fired. Nothing other than trying to destroy an innocent animal. Nothing other than lying to Rita Skeeter. Nothing other than Draco trying to curse Harry while his back was turned. NOthing other than Draco threatening Harry, Hermione, and the Weasleys with death. Nothing other than Draco's mean, spitefull, arrogant, self-grandiose, selfish, self-absorbed, egostitical attitudes and actions. Nothing other than the sorting songs. [Sarcasm->] Nope, not much there at all. TOM: > > Doesn't anyone think it's ODD that Slytherin was on a > seven year winning streak and only started losing once > Harry 'n the gang showed up? > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - NO! TOM: > > The idea that Slytherin won for seven years running, and > would have won for an eighth if Dumbledore hadn't > interfered, does not indicate to me that this is the > direct result of undue favoritism from the Snape, either. > On that note - > > > -Tom bboy_mn: Get over it, Slytherin lost. Dumbledore didn't steal a victory from anyone. They just plain lost. The House Cup is won when it is awarded at the Leaving Ceremony. Up until the Leaving Ceremony, Slytherin was ahead and was the ASSUMED winner. But it isn't over until all the points are counted. It isn't over until the Cup is awarded. If Slytherins had made an effort to dig out the facts, to solve the mystery, to face the danger, to sacrifice themselves, to save one of the most rare and precious magical artifacts, and to prevent Voldemort from becoming immortal, then they could have earned a few extra points too. Harry, Ron, and Hermione were awarded point that they EARNED for displaying skill, knowledge, courage, bravery, selflessness, strength of character, and moral fiber above and beyond what anyone could possibly expect from three 11 year old kids. In fact, above and beyond what one could expect of most full grown wizards. And for good measure, they saved the Stone and defeated Voldemort. They didn't have to go. They could have done what all the other 11 year old kids did, which was be little kids. Instead they chose to shoulder a task that would have buckled the knees of the strongest of men, and they shouldered that task with great success. They earned the points, they won the cup. The timing sucked. But this incident only occured 4 days before the end of school. To a kid, 4 days is a long time, but when you are the headmaster of the school, you have things to do, places to go, people to see, arrangements to make. You have to go convince Nicholas Flamel and his wife that the best thing for them is to die. You have to destroy the Stone. You have to see to it that a near dead student is being taken care of. You have a school to run. So pardon me if Dumbledore was a little too busy to think of poor Slytherins feelings. They lost. Plain and simple. They didn't EARN enough points. This most certainly is my story and I AM sticking to it. bboy_mn From snorth at ucla.edu Fri Jan 31 05:23:23 2003 From: snorth at ucla.edu (Scott Northrup) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 21:23:23 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Oh, just loads of Snape stuff, from the many threads References: <009501c2c8e3$b87c9920$ac04a6d8@texas.net> Message-ID: <001501c2c8e8$e662aeb0$d3447442@xyrael> No: HPFGUIDX 51218 Amandageist; > Okay. Moody. To quote you from above because I digressed on Snape (how > unusual, that): "Crouch!Moody is cruel to Draco because he was in violation > of school rules, in a very serious manner." > > Again, you discount the man's personal agenda. This is a Death Eater who > lives and breathes to bring his master back so that master can seriously > kick the asses of all the other Death Eaters who have *not* spent years > being controlled by their own fathers and imprisoned in their own houses. > Revenge. All things are for that goal. And here's Draco, son of Lucius, who > has spent every night since Voldemort fell, free in his manor house eating > gourmet food prepared by house-elves and sleeping between gently warmed > sheets and NOT SEARCHING FOR HIS MASTER. > > I may be wrong, but I believe that this incident was one of the first, if > not the first, times Crouch!Moody speaks to or sees Draco. Crouch!Moody must > have been *delighted* that Draco gave him the opportunity to do this to him. > He may even (I postulate without a shred of evidence) have Imperiused Draco > to cast the curse in the first place--perhaps there was a very good reason > Draco missed at that range, he was being directed to--giving himself a > chance to inflict pain on the son of Lucius. This would serve a purpose, > too, as well as being fun--his master does not, after all, need Draco, and > Draco is a possible danger to Harry and should be controlled or subdued from > the outset. Moody's skill leans to Imperius. But I digress again. > > My point is, that Moody may be better at playing the scenario logically, but > I think he also had loads of motive behind what he did, that had absolutely > nothing to do with what actually happened. Hmm... that is an excellent point. I do agree that Crouch probably has his own agenda outside of punishing Draco. I'm hoping we do get to see a good deal more of Real!Moody in the next book. See, to me- aside from the couple of clues JKR throws at us in GoF (none of which make any sense unless you're rereading the book), I truly think she just wrote Crouch!Moody as if she were writing Moody. There's not really anything to back me up on this, aside from the fact that the man managed to fool Dumbledore for 9 months or so. So, whenever I read that scene, I still think of it as being Moody who turns Draco into 'the amazing bouncing ferret.' -Scott (who still thinks Draco deserved it. I mean, honestly, how bad could being transfigured into a ferret and bounced around be? Have you ever been transfigured? How do you know that it's the most terrible punishment possible. I sort of laugh and shake my head whenever people on the list say that its 'unacceptable.' We know it's not allowed at Hogwarts, but then, paddling isn't allowed in public schools today; but I hardly think that paddling a child is a form of torture. It's not like Crouch!Moody used the Cruciatus curse on Draco or anything. Also, I still hold that the mental image of someone being turned into a ferret and bounced around is hilarious. And I /don't/ torture small animals or children, and never did.) From skelkins at attbi.com Fri Jan 31 05:45:41 2003 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 05:45:41 -0000 Subject: House points and Dumbledore, Authorial Intent, and A Question In-Reply-To: <20030130194515.10086.qmail@web40506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51219 My goodness! People have been busy today! A bunch of Point Award Scene thoughts here. If I've replicated anyone's arguments, or missed out on anything vital, then please accept my apologies. It's a bit tricky to compile a post when so many people have had such interesting things to say on the topic, and although I've tried to make this at least marginally coherent, I fear that I may jump around a bit. -------------- Errol wrote: > Goodness Gracious! The end-of-term argument all over again! I just love this argument, I really do. It's one of my all-time favorite topics. Heaven only knows why. > I agree that the timing of the announcement was lousy. But it > was lousy because the room was already decorated and the Slytherins > had prematurely congratulated themselves. My question here is -- > Who decorates the hall for the feast? Did the Slytherins put up the > house colors anticipating the victory? You know, I had never considered that angle before? If it came up last time around, I must have missed it. Certainly, if the Slytherin students were indeed the ones who decorated the hall themselves, as a premature gloat, then that changes my interpretation of the event quite a bit! Nonetheless, I really do find it hard to imagine that the decorations were put up by students. I feel convinced that they were the work of the school administration itself. If Dumbledore himself doesn't do it, then one of the other professors does, or the elves do, or the banners and suchnot are somehow magically connected to whatever spell or device keeps track of all of those house points in the first place. No matter what the precise mechanism, though, I feel certain that it still comes down to the school administration, just as I feel convinced that it was Dumbledore and the school administration, and not any particular group of students, who made the decision to decorate the hall in mourning black to honor Cedric's memory at the end of the year in GoF. It's a nice thought, though. But I really do think that Dumbledore allowed the Slytherins to rest assured in their assumption of victory on *purpose.* Just to swipe it out from under them at the very last minute, in order to make his point. I think he was in error to do so, myself. Others, however, clearly disagree. As for the fairness of the point award itself, though, I am in agreement with all of Errol's arguments on this count. I don't think that the fact that none of the other students had the opportunity to save the world from Voldemort is particularly relevant. Points seem to be *regularly* awarded or penalized for actions taken under special circumstances not shared by the student body as a whole -- the Troll in the toilet is a good example. Students with inner ear problems aren't going to be winning a whole lot of points for their house by playing Quidditch either, but that's okay: they have their chance to do so in other arenas. Then, as I've said before, I don't see anything the slightest bit "fair" about the point system in the first place. What on earth does winning Quidditch (and the houses do get points for *winning* it, you know, not for displays of sportsmanship while playing it) have to do with comportment or moral virtue? What does knowing information that you have never been taught and which is not included in any of your coursework, but which you could only have come by through outside reading, have to do with diligence? What does not breaking curfew have to do with academic achievement? What about speaking respectfully to ones professors? None of these things really has a thing to do with each other. They are merely displays of those traits (athletic prowess, intellectual curiosity, compliance with the rules, respect for ones elders) which the Hogwarts admin wants to encourage in students. The willingness to risk ones life in order to prevent an evil wizard from gaining the secrets of eternal life is presumably also such a trait. Therefore, it is worth points. And (quite rightly, IMO) lots of 'em. No, it's not the point award itself that bugs me. It's the timing. Not to mention the *attitude.* Maria wrote: > I was really sorry for Slytherin at the end of PS. Not only > did they lose in such a "humiliating" way, but even > more - *everybody* is incredibly happy to see Slytherin lose. > I don't think anyone deserves that. Yeah, I know what you mean. At the same time, though, what we see of their behavior in the first book also makes me feel as if they really did earn that dislike. Also, I think it's pretty natural for people to feel happy to see the seven-year-champions finally get taken down. I'm a New Yorker, and yet I always used to root against the Yankees, just because I was so sick of them *winning* all the time. If I lived in the Potterverse, I'm sure that I'd share Ron's fondness for the Cannons. ;-) I feel a lot more sympathy for the Slyths these days, actually, when they've been on this losing streak for three years, and yet the Huffs and the Claws are *still* prone to cheering on their constantly- winning rivals. Even though I suspect that their rotten interpersonal skills contribute to their being not very well-liked, I still rather sympathize with them, much as I tend to sympathize with Snape, who similarly brings his unpopularity down upon himself by means of his own bad behavior. Grey Wolf asked: > Do you really think the Slytherins would've been less ticked > off if they had lost the House Cup two days before, when > Gryffindor suddenly found itself one moning with 170 extra, > unspecified points? If you don't mind me saying so, that > would've ticked them off exactly the same way, if not more. Of course it would have ticked them off! Just look at how much it ticked off the Gryffindors, when they woke up one morning to learn that a bunch of their own idiot first-years had lost them 150 points in the middle of the night! They were mad enough to engage in ostracism over that, weren't they? Ostracism of their own house- mates. At a boarding school, in a milieu in which said housemates had absolutely nowhere else to turn for social engagement. Charming. No, I'm sure that if the Slyths woke up one fine spring morning to find that Gryffindor had been awarded 170 points overnight, they would have been terribly suspicious, and they would have spent a lot of time muttering darkly among themselves about bias and so forth. And Dumbledore *still* could have taken advantage of the feast to explain to everyone precisely what had warranted the point award. It would have been a far more emotionally effective way to make the point that he was trying to make, IMO, and actually, I *do* think that it would have ticked off the Slyths a whole lot less. I don't think that conflating the message of our protagonists' heroism with the deliberate humiliation of House Slytherin did very much to convince the Slyths that there *wasn't* bias in play. Nor do I see the slightest bit of evidence in the books to suggest that what Dumbledore did taught the Slytherin students a damned thing about sportsmanship, or about fair play, or about virtue, or about self- sacrifice, or about generosity, or about rolling with the punches, or about trust, or about faith, or about the possible benefits of actually *listening* to what those in authority have to say -- rather than, say, joining a terrorist organization aimed at bringing down the current status quo. Well, actually...allow me to rephrase that. I see no evidence that what Dumbledore did taught them any *good* lessons about any of those things. There were certainly plenty of lessons to be learned from his attempt at moral instruction. But I don't think they were at all the lessons that it was really beneficial for the Slytherin students to be learning. If you get my drift. Not, mind you, that I think that anything that Dumbledore did was very likely to instill the Slytherin students with any deep respect for the virtues of fair play. But if that was indeed what he was trying to do, then he picked the wrong strategy, IMO, just as I think that he picked the wrong strategy with Student!Snape in the aftermath of the infamous Pr*nk. Maria: > Dumbledore must be aware of the dislike between Gryffindor > and Slytherin, but his actions speak of the fact that he > simply doesn't care about it - he increases the dislike even > more, when he, IMO, should be trying to let them reconcile. Yes, precisely. That's exactly how I feel about it as well. The Gryff-Slyth rivalry strikes me as a real *problem* in wizarding society. It's hard for me not to read it as having helped to facilitate Voldemort's first rise -- and it now seems likely to help facilitate his second rise as well. I often find Dumbledore a troubling character because while at times he seems to be set forth as a person who is unusually capable of *transcending* what I perceive as the true evils of the Potterverse, at other times he seems to be either oblivious to it or even helping to facilitate it. This is a tension, an ambiguity in his character that I find simultaneously intriguing and unsettling. Of course, it's also what makes me enjoy him so much as a character. If he didn't strike me as so very fallible, then I'm sure that I would find him perfectly unbearable. ;-> That doesn't make Dumbledore evil (and yes, Grey Wolf -- don't worry! I know that you don't believe in an Evil!Dumbledore! This is just on route to making a broader point). It just means that he's flawed, and that he makes mistakes. As indeed, he has been *shown* to be, over and over again in the books. Indeed, from that snippet we've now seen of Book Five, it looks as if this trend is likely to continue: Dumbledore *should* have told Harry something five years ago. But he didn't. In short, he made a *mistake.* I think that this was probably what Snapesangel was trying to get at when she wrote: > I think you rather have the idea that Dumbledore is > omnipotent. This is clearly not true. He makes mistakes, or > fails to act, in several situations(or so we can infer, since > bad things have happened during his tenure as a teacher and > then as Headmaster.) Yup. (Although not to be pedantic here, but I think maybe "omniscient" might have been even more what you meant? Not only that he isn't all-powerful, but also that he doesn't know everything, that he cannot "see all?") Dumbledore can make mistakes, and he does. That he can and does make mistakes *is* canonical. To suggest that he may have made one when it comes to the point award may run contrary to what seems to have been the authorial intent, but it is in no way contrary to the letter, or even really to the *spirit* of the canon. But as to that pesky authorial intent. . . . Did the *author* intend for the reader to view Dumbledore's last minute point award in PS/SS as one of his mistakes? Well, obviously none of us can say for sure, but I personally don't think that she did. And if wishes were horses, then beggars would ride. How JKR *wanted* people to read the scene matters diddly in the long run. In cold hard reality, many readers *do* interpret the scene in just that way, and that reading is perfectly compatable with all of the other places in the text where Dumbledore is shown to be imperfect: good, yes, and very well-intended. . . .but also *very* fallible. If the author wanted this scene to be read one way and one way only, then she made a *mistake.* Sometimes authors, very much like Dumbledore himself, do make mistakes. They write scenes which they mean to bolster one aspect of the story, but which in fact, for many readers, bolster a completely different aspect of the story instead. So long as the scene can still serve to bolster some *coherent* aspect of the story, though, then the narrative can still work. In fact, sometimes it works far better than it would have if the authorial intent had held sway. I once read an excerpt from Henry James' journal, in which he described what he *meant* to say in the novel _What Maisie Knew._ Now, I just love Henry James, and I really like _What Maisie Knew_ a *lot.* But I think that it would have been kind of a lame book if Henry James had actually *succeeded* in writing it to say what he thought that he was trying to say, because what actually ended up on the page is *way* more interesting that what he describes in his journal. It's good for fiction to be somewhat ambiguous, IMO. Unambiguous works of fiction -- particularly *morally* unambiguous works of fiction -- are really not very enjoyable to read. Even very small children tend to view them with profound disaste, and indeed, often voice their contempt for such stories in terms far more harsh and vituperative than we adults would be likely to use. ;-> Bboy wrote: > The next point is that, we must view this not from Slytherin's > perspective or Gryffindor's, but from the perspective of a reader. The fact of the matter is, though, that all readers do not read from the same perspective. It's quite obvious that opinions here differ a great deal. To some people, the last minute victory was indeed (as I agree with you the author very likely intended it to be) thrilling, exciting, climactic. A dramatically satisfying end to the story. To others, however, it left a very nasty taste in the mouth. I confess that I had the latter reaction to the scene, the first time that I read the book. I did not care for it at all. It was a total eye-roller for me. In fact, I found it sufficiently annoying that I probably would never have bothered to read CoS at all, had I not brought it along with me on the same plane ride. After finishing SS, it was either CoS, the in-flight mag, or a nap. And I wasn't feeling sleepy. ;-) I didn't really start liking the series until CoS, and part of the reason for that was that I saw many signs in CoS that the author was setting about to undercut to number of the things that I had so DISliked about SS: the pronounced yet unexamined dualism, for example, and the emphasis on inheritance, both of which are privileged in the first volume, but take *serious* cuts to the jaw by the end of the second. > From the perspective of writing a fun thriling story that > encourages us to root for the hero and feel the thrill of > his victory, JKR got it right. For some readers, she did. And for other readers, she *really* got it wrong. It seems obvious to me, however, that even people who did not read this scene as an unambiguous "feel good" moment can still enjoy the series as a whole. They're all over this list, right? So obviously either the ways in which the scene "failed" for them were not sufficient to turn them off of the books, or their reading of the scene was not, in fact, a "failure" at all, but rather, an alternative type of authorial *success.* Bboy still: > I do get the point being made from a real world perspective, but > from a literary perspective, the last minute vitory snatch from > your foes, was the right choice for a thrilling happy end to the > story. What did you think of the "cursing the Slyths on the train" scene at the end of GoF? I ask because that scene strikes me as very similar to the point award in that it is a humiliating defeat for the Slytherins which makes some readers cheer with glee, but which always leaves a very nasty taste in my mouth. I also think, though, that the scenes are very *un*like each other, not merely in terms of what is actually being depicted (a defeat handed down by an authority figure vs. a squabble between peers, for example), but also because I think that Train Stomp is presenting much the same dynamic to the reader, but in a far more ambiguous and morally complex light. The similarities and differences that I perceive between these two scenes often strike me as evidence that the series is indeed moving away from an "us vs. them" aesthetic and striking out into some rather more complicated thematic waters. But now I'm *really* curious to hear what others think on this. So a question for the list as a whole: Did the scene on the train at the end of GoF have the same emotional effect on you as the point award scene at the end of PS/SS? If not, then why not? What are the differences in how these two scenes are presented to the reader? How do we interpret those differences in light of the motion of the series as a whole? Elkins From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 05:48:23 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 05:48:23 -0000 Subject: Fat and senile wizards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51220 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Torsten wrote: > I'd like to adress two points: > > 1. Shouldn't wizards on average be overweight compared to muggles? > They don't play any sports which actually requires the work of > muscles (and as for the Quidditch players, only the Beaters truly > exercize). They have no P.E. classes in school. > ...edited... > -end this part- bboy_mn: Wizards? or Wizard School Students? I think Grey Wolf already pointed out that not that many muggles get much excersize, and when they do, they do it all wrong; too much, too fast, and with little or no preperation. >From what I see (or read, I guess) magic people don't seem especially lazy. When they are in Diagon Alley, they don't seem to apparate from Fortescue's to the Leaky Cauldron (for example), they walk down the street. I've been with friends in downtown Minneapolis who took the bus for one block. I walked the same distance and got there at the same time they did. I would put them on a par in terms of excersize with muggles, but they have two advantages. First, no real 'fast food' (Grey Wolf already pointed that out), and they can conjure food. When Mrs. Weasley is cooking, she makes a white sauce come out of her wand. In all likelihood, because 'white sauces' tend to be very rich and fatty, she conjured it because they would all get the pleasure of eating it, but an hour or so later, it would vanish. That would be sooooo cool. You could eat ice cream ten times a day, and never gain an ounce. You could sit down and eat a whole pie, but if it was conjure from nothing, then that indeed is what it is, nothing. So wizards and witches are in a position to eat a relatively rich and flavorful diet without getting th calory overload that we mere muggles do. PE (Physical Education)? How about climbing up and down a mountain (actually sloping lawns) several times a day, or how about climbing dozens of long staircases carrying big bags of books all day long. It's over seven floors up and seven floors down, just to go eat dinner. Also let's keep in mind that an old castle like this does not have standard 8 foot ceilings. Low ceilings are probably 15 ft., high ceilings in this building are probably 20 to 30ft., and the Entrance Hall and Great Hall are probably 140ft. So stairs taking you up to the seventh floor level, are probably closer to a 12 to 14 story standard building. I'd say they get plenty of excersize. Quidditch? Well, I suspect that saying Quidditch is no excersize is like saying Motocross (motorcycle type) is no excersize because all you do is ride the motorcycle, it does all the work. But, if you check into it, you will find the Motocross motorcycle racing is an extremely grueling sport. Despite what Harry claims about his great brooms, I don't think they are effortless to fly, especially in a fast paced highly maneuverable game like Quidditch. I'm sure there are a lot of sports that are more physically challenging but I think it's more challenging than you would think. bboy_mn > 2. Some have said the interpret the repeated mentions of Dumbledore > looking old and worn as signs he'll die soon. What if ... loses > ...his mental fitness ... spell casting ability due to old age? > > Voldemort, ...comparatively young, already invested ... much into > his search for immortality? ... and he wants to gain it (young > immortality) before his ability to work magic is diminished .... > ... if Dumbledore ... live(s) another decade or two, in time > Voldemort will be stronger ... because Dumbledore suffers from old > age ... > > What do you think? > > Torsten bboy_mn: Well, you certainly have a point. While some don't agree, I use 100yrs vs 200yrs to compare Muggle to wizard's lifespan. Adjusting Dumbledore's age, in muggle years, he is about 75, that's not real young. Certainly, there are a lot of people in our society who are brilliant and productive at 75, but you are also starting to wear down. Dumbledore could very probably live another 50 years, possibly more, but there is no denying that he is old, and that has too take a toll. There are some who speculate that Dumbledore will die in the series, considering how old he is and the magnitude of the fight ahead, I suspect that not only will he die in the end, but his performance will be limited while he is alive. He may be a powerful man and a powerful wizard, but the demands of war can be very physically and mentally grueling. Let's face it, was is a young mans game. Old men make war, and then they send their children out to fight them. Sad but true. I guess I don't really have a strong point other than to agree with you, we will see Dumbldore's limitation because of his age before the story ends. Just a few rambling thoughts. bboy_mn From Malady579 at hotmail.com Fri Jan 31 05:54:18 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 05:54:18 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Fear or Respect? (was: Dumble and Vol) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51221 Melody stood and watched Grey Wolf praise her bunny Coney for the fine catch of two large badgers. She shook her head and thought to herself, "Oh, Meg is not going to be too pleased when those two drag *them* home to the safe house tonight. The badger is her school mascot after all." Though, Melody was slightly pleased Coney was finally using her skills in ways more suitable than chomping down in fellow TBAY'ers. Looking around and seeing no one, Melody sat herself down in the grass and started picking at the blades. Grey looked over from his teaching Coney how to restrain an animal without getting blood on your fur and saw her sitting there quietly. "Did what I say bother you that much, Mel?" he asked concerned. She normally is not *this* quiet. "No...I mean yes...I mean...Oh sorry Grey," she sighed. "I just don't like talking about fear. It is such a hard topic to face." Grey walked back over to Mel and sat down next to her. "You mean you fear fear?" he asked trying not to smirk too much. "Ok. Quite laughing," she smiled trying to relieve his discomfort in suppressing his amusement. "But when you said Dumbledore *fears* Voldemort, I immediately thought the worse. That the fear is crippling. That it (fear) was keeping him from finishing his spymaster job before that fateful night. That for some reason, Dumbledore feared the step of fully removing Voldemort from being a threat." Grey Wolf surveyed the girl's earnestly. "Mel, I did not mean to imply that at all. I was just saying that Dumbledore has a *healthy* fear of Voldemort." "Is that a fear or more a respect?" she asked. "Now you are talking an awe of Voldemort, and that, of which, I disagree," he said kicking his legs out and leaning back against the tree stump. Melody looked back down at the grass. "But Dumbledore must have a sense of awe about Voldemort's powers. One always is fascinated by their equal. Especially when they reach the same goal by a different route. I guess, I see Dumbledore kind of respecting Voldemort in a way. In a sense of awe and fear, for he alone knows the full powers the man has because he has them too. That is not why Dumbledore has not neutralized Voldie's threat, but I guess I am asking, is that a 'fear' Dumbledore has? It does seems Voldemort kind of has an 'awe' of Dumbledore." "I think you are using biblical definitions again, aren't you?" he asked. "Yeah," she smiled slightly. "And I thought you missed the four love lessons in OT. I guess I *am* kind of splinting fear like that. The English word for fear can mean many things where it once did not." "So your problem before was in the degree of fear I was attributing Dumbledore having?" he asked like a good tbay character. "Yes," she nodded appropriately. "Before I was unsure how much fear they had for each other. I mean - it does seem, by the way you presented it, that Dumbledore was loosing because of his uncertainty for what to do. His fears were creeping in on him, and he was isolated in his 'safe haven' of Hogwarts. "That is why I reacted the way I did. I see no crippling fear there, but then again...I could understand if Dumbledore did. They were loosing, and how are they to defeat Voldemort *now*? He was so incredible powerful and the spells he used were quite...quite...evil. They trick the mind, body, and soul. There is nothing, it seems, they could do to detect anything. Nothing the powers of good could do that would trump evil. It was all *chaos* **everywhere**." She stopped a second to regain her composure. "Mel, are you shaking?" he asked scooting over to her. "I just do not like fear Grey," she said between attempts at calming gasps. "It is too controlling, too manipulative, too..." "But Mel, I did not mean to imply that Dumbledore feared Voldemort like that. You see fear, in and of itself, is not a bad thing. It is healthy in fact. Like fearing the pain of burns, so you don't touch the stove," he explained. "No, I see your argument Grey. In fact, I can't disagree. In that realm, Dumbledore does fear and it caused him to care even more for the world he lives in. It is *this* fear of it not existing that drives him. So then, is it better to say that Dumbledore fears because he loves?" she asked looking up to the wolf for an answer, but did not wait for him to reply. "And then Voldemort. He fears because he does not love. He does not know how to understand his enemy, right? He is confused by their 'higher moral choices,' right?" she asked pausing to let him speak. Grey Wolf nodded. "Yes, Voldemort cannot even begin to understand the power morality has over a (moral) man's actions. I don't think Voldemort can understand that Dumbledore *wouldn't* use an AK, even if using it would destroy Voldemort. That is why he fears Dumbledore. Because, if Voldemort was Dumbledore he would of AKed himself long ago." Melody began regaining her composure. "He fears because he knows the enemy wants him gone, but he does not know how they will go about it? Grey, that sounds completely human to me. Seems silly to think your enemy will kill you only in the ways they deem fit. And really, you could insert any name there for Voldemort to fear. They all wanted him dead, and all are fairly capable of doing it even if Dumbledore has reserves about unforgivable curses. The fact one good guy has reserves does not change the fact some loony could kill him." Melody rolled over in the grass and rested her head in her folded arms. "No, there has to be another reason Voldemort feared Dumbledore. Maybe it is simply, that Voldemort knew his match. He know Dumbledore could take him, but the fact he never seemed to must of amused Voldemort and inflated his ego. The great Dumbledore, high in his precious school, helpless to it all just because he will not what? Order Voldemort's death? Use an AK? Come now. That doesn't make sense. Dumbledore must of done something that caused Voldemort to truly fear him so much." "In fact!" she said excited as she rolled over and sat up, "that is what I was hung up on. I was equating Dumbledore's fear to be the same one Voldemort feels for Dumbledore. Voldemort is truly afraid of Dumbledore. Not because he can kill him, but because of how his mind could work to bring about his downfall. Now, if we parallel that back where I was concerned--Dumbledore fears Voldemort because of what Voldemort could do to him? We have a stalemate then. Both side in their ivory towers not taking that last step needed. Though we do have Voldemort winning the ground covering with the DE's vs. Good wizards. "*But* in the real battle, between the head of one and the head of the other, was it really at a passing? Voldemort did not go after Dumbledore, and it seems, Dumbledore will not go after Voldemort. Maybe I am assuming much here, but can you at least see why I objected at first? If that parallel is true, then it means Dumbledore was loosing the war because he feared him enemy. He was letting that fear stop him. So I guess, that parallel is not true then? Dumbledore was loosing his war because of his morals not fear? He just will not stoop that low. He would rather die with honor than live with guilt. Yep. Sounds like a *Gryffindor* to me." Melody From risinglight at hotmail.com Fri Jan 31 04:54:04 2003 From: risinglight at hotmail.com (Britt ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 04:54:04 -0000 Subject: full moon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51222 bboy_mn said: > There is someone here on the this list that is an expert on this > stuff, or at least compared to the rest of us, he/she is an expert. > Hopefull he/she will jump in an settle this. > > Since I have seen the moon in the daylight hours of late afternoon > and at other time seen the moon appear long after it was dark, I > have to assume that the moon rises and falls on a varying schedule > just like the sun. I'm no expert, but I am taking an astronomy class and just had an exam on this. The time of the moon's rise and set varies by the phase of the moon, but is constant for each phase. So when the moon is full, it always rises at sunset and sets at sunrise. (Other phases, such as first quarter and third quarter, either rise or set at noon, thus being visible all morning or afternoon.) If anyone's curious, in the UK (okay, in London), the sun sets--and the moon rises-- at about 9:10 in early June (when these events took place, according to the books), and about 9:20 around June 23, which was the actual date of the full moon in June 1994. --Britt, a lurker who always thought her first post to this list would be a little more HPish! From toberead at excite.com Fri Jan 31 05:20:03 2003 From: toberead at excite.com (aquariajade ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 05:20:03 -0000 Subject: Characters You Hate In-Reply-To: <20030131030027.20999.qmail@web9403.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51223 Leslie wrote: > > Well...yeah. Though I'll have to beg no one to send > me anything nasty after they read this but... > > I hate Harry Potter. > > I love the books they're positively grand but > something about the "boy who lived" just gives me a > headache. > > > "Leslie" I was wondering when someone would be brave enough to admit this first (obviously not me *grin*). But I must agree with Leslie. I do not like Harry Potter very much, I think he is self-centered, thoughtless, very very nosey, and overall, not especially interesting besides his extraordinary circumstances. He just does not inspire me. Few of the characters really make me smile; I would not enjoy spending time with most of them. But why I am so dedicated to the books is because of the sheer magic of a world that seems so real, and JKR's amusing writing style. Although I will admit to really liking and respecting F+G, they are living their lives fully and joyfully, which I feel one has no excuse for doing if one would to be blessed with such amazing gifts from being a wizard (or witch). My two sickles (inflation, you know). Jade From jodel at aol.com Fri Jan 31 06:31:34 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 01:31:34 EST Subject: The Rise of the Mudblood (was; WW and empire) Message-ID: <170.19f976d5.2b6b7246@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51224 Ffred states; >>I wonder if the real tension is not so much immigration into the WW ingeographical terms but in terms of the "25% figure".<< Boy howdy. You *bet* that's the problem. Mind you, that's the *current* figure, and we have no idea of how rapidly it reached that percentage. I have a strong conviction that bonafide, (unantcipated) Muggle-born magical children were fairly rare in the period before the seclusion. (Halfbloods, on the other hand, were not uncommon.) For one thing, most Muggles were pretty well isolated in little rural hamlets until the late 18th and early 19th centuries and everyone knew pretty well who one's ancestors were. Among the Muggle retainers of the overlords who happened to be wizards, the birth of a magical child of two non-magical parents may have simply been regarded as a case of magic having skipped a few generations and that somewhere in the family tree there was a pretty dairy maid, or some such, who helped one of the sons of the "Big House" sow a few wild oats. In these little hamlets, everone had been passing around most of the same incomplete set of magical genes and this would have occasionally resulted in a full wizard when one of the missing links somehow managed to get invited to the party. But Muggle-born magicals only tended to happen in these particular hamlets, and, with about the same degree of frequency, in the cities. These births were rare enough that the Wizards' Council (or possibly the early MoM by then) ultimately decided that the danger to the wizarding population as a whole was great enough that to lose these few Muggle-born children to the witch hunters was a price they would just simply have to pay for the safety of seclusion. It was the loss of the halfbloods, who had always been much more common, that brought the wizarding world to the population crisis that it landed in by the time they commissioned the charmed quill(s?). During that period, families which could have traced at least some mixed-blood ancestors at the beginning of the seclusion, gradually stopped thinking about that part of their bloodline and started regarding themselves as fully pureblooded wizarding stock. And not altogether without reason. The birthrate during the early half of the seclusion was far too low to maintain the population at the numbers it had been at the time of seclusion, but there was a far higher rate of "purity" in its ancestry. (Note: I think that the WW has still not completely regained its numbers to those of the time of the seclusion. Which at that point had also been mostly composed of halfbloods.) Meanwhile, outside the wizarding world, not all of the Muggle-born magical children had been caught and executed by the witch hunters, and their fully functioning magical genomes had been seeded back into the general Muggle population, (rather than having found patronage from the "Big House", trained and absorbed into the wizarding population) further raising the percentage of magical genes being passed around in those districts. And then the Acts of Enclosure started forcing the commons off the land and into the towns and factories. Where people with an incomplete set of magical genes had an exponientially higher liklihood of meeting and merrying someone from a district that had been passing around a different incomplete set that provided the missing bits. Mind you, Muggle-born magical births have never been common. Even now when they represent 25% of an average Hogwarts year's intake that only accounts for some 40 children in all of Great Britain (and whatever else is within the quill's range, using the 1000 people at Hogwarts estimate. If you use the 400 students model it accounts for all of 12-15 magical births per year). But they became much more frequent than they had been when everyone was still isolated in the little villiages in the neighborhoods of the (now vanished) wizarding estates. And once these children were again being located, trained and absorbed into the WW, it means that wizards had to deal with their families over at least a seven year period, and usually longer. This sort of interaction was bound to result in attachments which would have resulted in mixed marriages and a new influx of bonafide halfbloods (as opposed to technical halfbloods like Harry, whose parents were both magical, but whose ancestry is half Muggle). Ofcourse the fanatical pureblood faction can't stand it. Even leaving aside that purebloods, in their sense of the term, were never numerous enough to keep the WW going, and still aren't, and probably never will be. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From skelkins at attbi.com Fri Jan 31 06:59:58 2003 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 06:59:58 -0000 Subject: Crouch's memory (was: Re: What is your all-time favorite ... In-Reply-To: <2b.375ef4b6.2b6ae36a@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51225 Grey Wolf wrote: > I think you are overlooking something, Elkins. While all your > points are valid, you are basing them in an asumption: that > Crouch heard the name "Percy Weasley" at least once. Heh. Yeah, you're right. I had been making that assumption. I suppose that it is possible that he never did. (I particularly liked your suggestion that confronted with the question, "Are you related to the Weasley family?" Percy would likely have simply answered in the affirmative. That cracked me up.) Grey Wolf: > Now, the real interesting question is: how does an absolute > newbie, that has been in the ministry for less than a year, > manage to climb far enough to be Crouch's personal assistant > and substitute when he is unavailable (for example, as Tournament > judge)? Hmmm. Well, I've actually *been* a "personal assistant," and in my experience, at any rate, it isn't a job that necessarily goes to someone with seniority. Far to the contrary. In my experience, it goes to the person the Assistee finds most amenable to having around as a dogsbody. Such a person is often someone with very little in the way of seniority, but with quite a lot in the way of... Oh dear. You know, I really very much *want* to say "hustle" here? But I suspect that "sycophancy" might actually be a far better and more accurate descriptor. I have no difficulty believing that Percy would have been that person for Mr. Crouch. I've always read a certain degree of amused approval mixed in with the faint exasperation of Crouch's description of Percy as a tad over-enthusiastic at times. I also find it believable that Crouch really would have wanted, er, "Weatherby" as his personal assistant because Percy *did* idolize him. That's an important trait in a personal assistant. I don't know if anyone else has ever held such a job, but I imagine that it may be a bit like being a professional servant. It is work that is much easier to perform well if you are able to convince yourself, at least while on the clock, that your employer really *is* a kind of minor deity. You don't have to believe it *too* far down, but it's a lot easier if you do. It's a thankless job, really, and if you can't at least Stanislavsky or Roleplay or Self-hypnosis or what-have-you your way into at least...err...assuming the *position* of personal devotion then it will likely drive you quite, quite mad. (Why, yes! I *did* feel a great deal for Percy at the end of GoF. Why do you ask?) Cheryl/Lynx, however, has a far more sinister suggestion: > I'm not sure about the position, but I do have a suggestion about > why Percy was chosen as the representative. I think that was LV's > doing. Especially if/since Crouch, Sr., remember Percy's real name. > All he knew was that this newbie was just that, a newbie, overly > flattered by Crouch's interest. He probably felt that 'Weatherby' > would be the least dangerous person to be the link between Crouch > and the tournament, especially with Crouch resisting the Imperious. > After all, Percy did accept all Crouch's notes unquestioningly. I agree that this seems *very* plausible. Especially since I think it's safe to assume that Voldemort could have learned all he wanted about Crouch's underlings from Crouch himself. Poor Percy really *was* an ideal tool, wasn't he? For pretty much the same reasons that he would have made such an ideal personal assistant, actually. Elkins casting an uneasy glance down at her SYCOPHANTS badge and trying to avoid thinking about that clock chiming somewhere up the hill in the Garden of Good and Evil... From siskiou at earthlink.net Fri Jan 31 07:12:59 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 23:12:59 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Young Adult/Children's Literature In-Reply-To: <018f01c2c893$473ea230$2401010a@Frodo> References: <018f01c2c893$473ea230$2401010a@Frodo> Message-ID: <139123746100.20030130231259@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 51226 Hi, Thursday, January 30, 2003, 11:10:38 AM, heiditandy wrote: >>From: karywick >> I'm sure JKR >> never thought they would be picked apart and critiqued as much as >> we >> do on this web site or as much as some other literary classics >> taught >> in colleges. > No, I'm sure she didn't, although we know that at least while writing > OoTP, she's aware that there are nitpicking websites out there. She's > said so in interviews I just read one of her interviews here: http://www.ala.org/BookLinks/jkrowling.html It's an old one, from July 1999, but I haven't sought out many of her interviews before, so it's all new to me :) I thought the following was kind of funny, considering what we are doing on this list . ************************************ JKR: Only later can you start analyzing it. But you can overanalyze, too. I had a woman tell me it was clear to her that Harry was so abused that he becomes schizophrenic, and that everything that happens from the point of the arrival of the letters about Hogswart is his own escape into a sort of torture-fantasy. I tried to be polite and say something like, Well, that would be one way of looking at it, I guess. But I was kind of scared. One of the nicest things about writing for children is that you dont find them deconstructing novels. Either they like it or they dont like it. ************************ I'm not sure if it's exactly clear who she is writing for. A lot of the interview sounds as if the target audience *is* thought to be mostly children. Especially the following from the same interview: ******************** Harry is my full-time job at the moment. I really dont have much brain space to think about other projects. I dont know if whatever comes next will be for children. But, if I end up being a childrens writer, that will be fine for me, because I dont at all see childrens literature as substandard or adult books as a peak of achievement. But, equally, if the next idea that enthused me this much were for adults, then Id do that. ********************* And *this* part has given me back the hope that there might be a somewhat happy ending waiting for the readers: ********************* Rowling: Yes, thats what Im trying to do with the books in this series. They could be seen as an antidote to all of the grim books. There has been the same trend in publishing in Great Britain. Weve had a glut of very realistic, gritty, very bleak books. ********************* I'll have to go and see if she contradicts all this in later interviews. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From elfundeb at comcast.net Fri Jan 31 07:17:21 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 02:17:21 -0500 Subject: Harry Has TWO Parents/Characters You Hate References: <20030131030027.20999.qmail@web9403.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008901c2c8f8$cba79f80$723b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 51227 Leslie observed: >I hate Harry Potter. >I love the books they're positively grand but >something about the "boy who lived" just gives me a >headache. I don't dislike Harry at all; however, there is something about Harry's character that *does* rub me the wrong way: I don't like his archetype. At least, I don't like what seems to be his archetype, i.e., the hero we rely on who will conquer evil and earn great rewards. Arrrgh. It's to JKR's credit that she's given him enough flaws to make him highly sympathetic, even when he's misbehaving; nevertheless, I just don't identify with heroes who miraculously overcome incredible obstacles time after time after time. And that's been Harry's history so far. Boring, boring, boring. No, Harry as hero doesn't inspire me at all; the lesser accomplishments or emotional growth of a damaged character would impress me more. But Leslie's comment, as well as Pip's post about Harry's parents, led me to consider once again the possible theme of Harry as Christ figure. As a sacrificial Christ figure, Harry would in the end be willing to sacrifice himself for all, and in a series that emphasizes one's choices over one's abilities, that's an ending that would give sure meaning to that theme despite Harry's own almost superhuman abilities, and one which would transcend my general dissatisfaction with Harry as conventional hero. One thing that may suggest "divine" or superhuman status is the voices Harry hears in his head - because it's something in his head that other wizards just don't seem to have. For example, take Barty Crouch Jr.'s lesson on the Imperius Curse. At first, Harry feels "a floating sensation as every thought and worry in his head was wiped gently away." But as he prepared to spring in obedience to Crouch's order, "another voice had awoken in the back of his brain" pointing out how silly it was to jump. Yes, Crouch tells us that it takes real strength of character to fight the Imperius Curse, but that voice in the back of Harry's head just doesn't sound to me like Harry's character strength taking over. It makes it sound as though it wasn't that tough for Harry to resist it. He wasn't particularly tempted by that "vague, untraceable happiness" that Imperio produces, at least after hearing the other voice. When the other voice spoke, Harry listened. There are other ways to describe that scene if JKR intended us to really believe it was Harry's strength of character that allowed him to resist rather than something extraordinary about himself. After all, Crouch himself implies that those with strength of character can learn to resist Imperius. Harry seems to have something way beyond that. Fast forward to the graveyard. That same voice speaks to him again when Voldemort employs the Imperius Curse, and Harry resists. When the Priori Incantatem began taking effect, he was saved by the phoenix song - which, according to FBAWTFT, brings hope to the pure of heart - and which produced the effect of another voice in Harry's head, telling him not to break the connection. Does it seem to anyone else that Harry wins this battle and the one with the Imperius Curse because of his innate purity of heart, and not because of anything particular that he did? And if so, how did he achieve this purity? Pip suggests that it came from Lily: > Are we going to find out that in the Lily/James partnership, it was > *Lily* who was the pure moral core? [snip] > > Well, we have a clue. Harry has his mother's eyes. > > And the eyes, traditionally, are seen as the windows of the soul. > And she added later: >'Lily', in the language of flowers, means 'pure'. Errolowl despaired at such a characterization of Lily: Why couldn't Lily have > been > mischievous too? Please, don't let her be a purer-than-thou > angel!! Totally pure characters *can* get very tedious very quickly, at least in the normal course. But if Harry functions as a Christ figure in the books, doesn't that leave Lily in the Mary role? According to Catholic tradition, anyway, Mary was so pure as to have been conceived without original sin. Moreover, just as it is Mary, not Joseph, who according to scripture remained present in Jesus' life throughout his ministry (even urging him to perform his first miracle at the wedding in Cana), Lily's purity is a trait which Harry has in abundance, and it is her protection he carries with him. Similarly, James fits Joseph's role of earthly father. As Pip points out, James the mischiefmaker *did* make many choices at Hogwarts that Harry does not. James, like the Twins, is portrayed as someone who sought out trouble for entertainment's sake -- sneaking around to steal food from the kitchens and find out all of Hogwarts' secrets. Yet he also appears in his Patronus form when Harry most needs his strength, and is portrayed as someone who would be merciful. There are biblical parallels to the early recognition of Harry's specialness. Harry's being chosen for Quidditch in his first year highlights his uniqueness in the same way that the story of Jesus staying over at the temple at age 12 to discourse with the elders highlights his divinity (while his response, why were you parents worried about me, bespeaks the annoyed nearly adolescent human). Harry's coming of age seems all about coming to understand and accept the responsibility that goes with those gifts. In fact, it's precisely when Harry tries hardest to be normal and to escape the consequences of his specialness that he gets in the most trouble. It's almost as if Harry's subconscious is a battle between his humanity (represented by his desire to be normal) and his "divinity" as illustrated by his unique talents. In CoS Dobby prevents him from crossing the barrier and in his desperation to get to school where normal wizards should be, he agrees to take the flying Ford Anglia to school. Another example is his treatment of Parvati at the Yule Ball, when his teenage hormones take over his behavior. It's illustrated most poignantly in PoA, in the desire to get to Hogsmeade despite the ever-present Dementors and the threat of Sirius Black, in his sole loss at Quidditch, where he cannot resist the lure of his mother, and in his threat to kill Sirius, who he believes has deprived him of a normal childhood with his parents. On the other hand, great things happen when he gives in to his gifts. In addition to the Imperius examples, twice in moments of crisis his purity of heart and faith in Dumbledore allows him to conjure up phoenix song to strengthen him. In the Chamber of Secrets (whose imagery reads like a descent into hell, a death and a resurrection), he destroys the diary that Fawkes brings him "without thinking, without considering." If Harry does sacrifice himself, will he be resurrected, either actually or figuratively, thus completing the death-and-resurrection parallel? Could Lily's protection have made him immortal? Or did Voldemort impart some of his own immortality to Harry in the scar? He's already survived Adavra Kedavra and been saved from a fatal wound by Fawkes' healing powers, suggesting tht the answer may be yes. Debbie whose most hated character is unquestionably Rita Skeeter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From illyana at mindspring.com Fri Jan 31 06:22:56 2003 From: illyana at mindspring.com (illyana delorean) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 23:22:56 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Characters You Hate In-Reply-To: <20030131030027.20999.qmail@web9403.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030131030027.20999.qmail@web9403.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51228 >Oryomai asked: > >> Everyone has strong feelings about certain characters >> *coughSnapecough*; are there any characters that you >> hate for no reason? You just read about them >> and think "Geez...I really don't like them!" but aren't >> really sure why? >>>>> Leslie responded: >Well...yeah. Though I'll have to beg no one to send >me anything nasty after they read this but... > >I hate Harry Potter. > >I love the books they're positively grand but >something about the "boy who lived" just gives me a >headache. > I have to admit that I also dislike Harry. I don't necessarily "hate" him, but I do dislike him. I don't like the fact that he gets special treatment. He sneaks around and breaks the rules - and hardly ever gets in any trouble! I can see why Snape is so irritated all the time when dealing with Harry - I certainly would be! Other characters I dislike are: Crabbe and Goyle (they are just too dumb), Sibyl with her oversized glasses (i think everyone hates her!), and Filch. Not really sure why I don't like him, though. He kind of reminds me of a child-molester. I am not a big fan of Dumbledore, either. I am glad that Harry has someone like him to be sort of a father-figure for Harry, but it just seems to me as though Albus did a little too much acid back-in-the-day. (or whatever the wizards call LSD) illyana p.s. The reason I have a "+" after Harry Potter's abbreviation on my geek code is that, if it weren't for Harry, there would be no HP books. So I have to give him some credit! -- S1.3 MIL+++ RWG++# FRI++ CBG++ P&S-- f++/+++ n- $++++ 9F13, 1F22, 2F13, 3F02, 3F05, 4F01, 4F08, 4F11, 4F19 F1980 HPGCv1 a22 e+ x+* Rm Ri HP4 S+++ Mo++ HG+/VK++ HaP+/SS+++& FGW++ DM++& VC-- GG-- CD+ VK++ SS+++& PT--- AF-- MM++ RL++ O+m FAo F- Sl FHo SfD "What's the point in having a Honda if you can't show it off?" - Superintendent Chalmers visit my livejournal! http://www.livejournal.com/users/illyanadmc From penumbra10 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 07:40:06 2003 From: penumbra10 at yahoo.com (Judy ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 07:40:06 -0000 Subject: Minorities in the WW-what makes sense (was: The wizarding world and empire) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51229 "manawydan" wrote: in WW, there does not seem to be any concept of a "3rd > > World", of the legacy of Empire, or of any sort of racial > > dimension. Ebony disagreed: I beg to differ strongly with you here.> > If the wizarding world did not mirror the Muggle one in any way... > ...then why are Dean Thomas and Angelina Johnson named thusly? >If, indeed, as you state the wizarding population of sub-Saharan >Africa had been left intact in this particular magical world, I doubt >*very seriously* that those two characters would have names like >those. Sure, explain it away all you wish, but the reason why so >many of the African-descended have European first, last, and middle >names is because of the legacy of slavery. Me: Although I found Ebony's recent post on the SHIP issue in GoF to be well-written, intelligent and well-supported, I cannot say the same about her ideas in this arena. This statement is capricious and emotional and is lacking the substantiation of actual Black British history and, indeed, all but the most superficial of our shared American history. IMO such a comment is insulting to Jo Rowling's perceptions of her own British culture and more than a bit self- righteous. My last name, Ellis, is English. I am Black. No one on my father's side was ever a slave and my mother's people immigrated from Scotland and Ireland. There are two other African American teachers on staff with me who have non-slaves on one side of their family. Although the majority of British and American Blacks owe their European names to the legacy of slavery, not all do. There is a very rich untold history which is not politically correct at the moment because it conflicts with popular rhetoric. Ebony wrote: It is certain that many Africans, American Natives, Asians, etc. have European names today. Yet it is Dean and Angelina's *last* names... their family names... that flag to me that there was indeed something like the Middle Passage in the wizarding world. There had to have been. Me: Oh, Really? I can't imagine any wizard allowing himself (or herself) to be subjected to the unimaginable indignities and suffering of "middle passage" and slavery without a knock down, drag-out, wands blazin' free-for-all. I would have another very big question for Ebony. There were very specific economic reasons slaves were bought and sold and, of course, they had to be broken and controlled. Why in the world would wizards import equally powerful wizard slaves, who could conceivably AK them into oblivion, when they had house elves who were already happy to work for free??? As far as I can see, the wizard slaves idea makes no sense whatsoever. It is abundantly clear to me that JKR's Black characters got their very British surnames some other way. Things make better sense in the perspective of actual history: There are historical records dating back to 210 A.D. which mention the presence of Blacks at a Roman military settlement at Carlisle. Several historical sources also mention Hadrian's Wall being guarded by an African division recruited for that purpose between 253-58 A.D. From 1555, when John Lok brought five West Africans to England to teach them English in hopes of establishing a trade with the Gold Coast, there was a continuous Black presence in England. They came to England in any number of ways and for any number of reasons. By 1596 there was such a substantial Black population in England that even Queen Elizabeth I took notice and wanted to have some of them deported. This idea went nowhere. By the middle of the 18th Century, there is historical evidence of a strong interdependence among England's poor and working class Blacks and Whites which included a great deal of intermarriage. The big objection during this period seemed to be cross-class, not cross- race mixing. The accuracy of these dates and events may be verified from snippets and links at this great interactive website: http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/B/blackhistorymap/ If there was such a large voluntary African muggle presence in England so early on, before England's imperialist push and the big influx of slaves, it is safe to speculate that England might have also drawn wizards. It is even safe to speculate that there were Black wizards in England during Merlin's day. The case for an Asian wizarding presence in England, however, cannot be justified, at least in light of history, until after 1780, when the East India Company transported the first immigrants to London. Regarding names: Native British surnames became fixed in the period between 1250 and 1450 and fall into one of four categories: patronymic names (those which are based on the first names of the male ancestor), names which reflect the family's point of origin, Dan Radcliffe's (red cliff) is one such name, occupational names, such as Potter, and names which are nicknames describing the ancestor's face or other features (Brown?"brown-haired/skinned) It is interesting to note that all three Black characters in JKR's novels, Dean Thomas, Angelina Johnson and Lee Jordan are given native patronymic British names. As Blacks in Britain, obviously had to come from somewhere else, point-of origin names would appear fake, occupational names could possibly be interpreted to mean the families were once servants of some sort, and nick names, would, by their nature more than likely indicate racial features which would, of course, be interpreted by readers as being racist slurs. I see JKR's choice of these characters' surnames as being indicative of them belonging to long-established families that had become integrated into the fabric of the British wizarding world. In light of this, it would be easy to see how two (or all) of them could also be pure bloods. I, for one, found this very positive and a marvelous way for JKR to emphasize her point about tolerance and acceptance. [I would really appreciate a Brit's take on this idea since most of my knowledge of English culture comes from books.] The concept of race and racial superiority was born in England after an act of Parliament freed all English slaves in 1806. (It similarly appeared in the US after Emancipation.) Racial divides were strongly drawn in both countries The Dursleys, naturally, subscribe to this notion and we see, very subtly, their influence on Harry. It is only through Harry's observations that we are even aware that Dean, Angelina and Lee Jordan are Black. We see no such designations or labeling being handed out by anyone else in the established wizarding world--even the elitist Malfoys. Then, after Harry has become comfortable with his place in this new world, we no longer see any such observations from him as this kind of thing is really not part of his nature. We only know there are other ethnicities because of the names JKR selects for them. Two of these groups are represented by the Patil twins, and Cho Chang, and reflect the other two largest ethnic demographics in England. It is perfectly natural to assume that within these various other immigrant groups (there were 37 at last count in London) there would also be wizards who voluntarily came to England for reasons of their own. I'm with Christian and with Richard and everyone else from the list who can see no evidence of racial prejudice within the wizarding world. This, of course, is JKR's objective. By making the wizarding world color blind so that everyone who reads her novels feels welcome there, she can use their muggle/pureblood conflicts to show us the absurdities of our own prejudices. I, for one, think this idea was brilliantly conceived. Judy, who sincerely hopes she didn't sound too much like Professor Binns. From heidit at netbox.com Fri Jan 31 07:46:46 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 07:46:46 -0000 Subject: Young Adult/Children's Literature In-Reply-To: <139123746100.20030130231259@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51230 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > I just read one of her interviews here: > http://www.ala.org/BookLinks/jkrowling.html > > It's an old one, from July 1999, but I haven't sought out > many of her interviews before, so it's all new to me :) > > I thought the following was kind of funny, considering what > we are doing on this list . > > ************************************ > JKR: > Only later can you start analyzing it. But you can > overanalyze, too. Then again, she also says in that same interview that there's a level of analyzing that she *expects* from her readers, as shown here: JOM: Do you think children consciously pick up on the levels of meaning in the book? Rowling: Definitely some do, because I've met them. In fact, I met a boy this morning who asked me the question I had thought everyone would ask me when the book was published, but this was the first time it's come up. He said to me, "If Harry's aunt and uncle hate him so much, why don't they just throw him out?" Well, that's a very shrewd point, and it will only be explained in book five. But, I had expected to have to explain that on a daily basis as the book became popular. I kept wondering why no one had asked, as I would want to know that if I were a reader. So, finally, Dennis in Chicago realized that this was a fundamental question that needs answering. He's right, and he'll find out in book five. *********************** (also, I'm now wondering if this is going to hold and show up as a subject in book 5!) If you look at the questions in that interview, it seems quite clear that the interviewer was focused on the "writing for children" concept/issue/topic, and I think that definitely created a slant in some of her answers that isn't necessarily evidenced by other interviews, including those I cited yesterday. There's another interesting point in that interview where she seems to bridge what I think you see as a gap between those interviews and the ones where she said she wrote the book she'd want to read, as shown here: <> This last sentence really goes to the heart of what I was replying to yesterday, IMHO, which is the idea that a book "for kids" (to use the line from Hudsucker Proxy) is more leading and inherently simplistic than a novel for adults. Regardless of whether she's writing for kids or adults, she's made it clear that she's not talking down to her audience and therefore, a claim that her book is "leading" is something that I personally don't see any basis for, in anything she's ever said. I recommend using The Goat Pen as a resource for interviews, btw - it's located here: www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/goat.htm heidi From heidit at netbox.com Fri Jan 31 08:01:53 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 03:01:53 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <025301c2c8ff$04fbed30$2401010a@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 51231 > -----Original Message----- > From: Erica [mailto:cymru1ca at yahoo.ca] > I suspect that objects that are under some kind of enchantment > (flying keys) may not be susceptible to 'Accio' - I mean, it would > make for a very boring Quidditch match, wouldn't it? (Accio Snitch!) It would be a violation of the rules of Quidditch. As it says in QTTA, wands may be taken on to the pitch but under no circumstance are they allowed to be used agaist the opposition, the balls or any member of the crowd. Accordingly, no player in a Quidditch match would do such a thing unless he or she were willing to accept the consequences of breaking such a rule (and no, I don't think we know what those consequences are, but I'd presume that it's at least considered a foul, and possibly using it on the Snitch would void said Snitch-catching. heidi From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 08:12:36 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 08:12:36 -0000 Subject: House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51232 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "firekat482 " wrote: > > > ...Substantially edited... > > Now me again: > > ... This awful, obvious show of favoritism really grates on my > nerves. By awarding the points this way Dumbledore shows a total > lack of respect for the Slytherin house and Snape as well. I would > imagine that it was a few weeks before Snape felt like talking to > the Headmaster again. > > What Dumbledore should have done IMHO (as the impartial Headmaster > that he is supposed to be) was award those points as soon he became > aware of what the Trio had done. By waiting until the last second > the only thing he accomplished was the further alienation of the > Slytherin house. And these are the people he cannot afford to > estrange. > > ...EDITED... > > ~Jean bboy_mn: I've already had my say on all aspects of this so I'm going to refrain from getting into this any deeper, BUT.... Favoritism? How is it favoritism? If I accept the argument that Dumbledore's timing stinks, I still don't see favoritism. You, yourself acknowledge that they deserved the points. So how do you favor someone by giving them what they earned? Perhaps, I'm taking 'favoritism' too literally. Perhaps there is a metaphorical reference that I am missing. Dumbledore's timing stinks, but I don't see the connection to favoritism. Now, let's talk about Dumbledore's timing. He had one student, a very famous and important student, near dead. Another student had been injured (Ron). He had a dead teacher, and Voldemort was inside the school building. Plus, he had to secure the Stone. Plus, contact Flamel. Plus, destroy the Stone. Plus, run a school. Plus, prevent a panic. PLus, explain to the Ministry and Board of Governors. I have a feeling that at the moment House points were way way down on his list of priorities, and rightly so if you ask me. A dead teacher and a nearly dead student, certainly distracted him from pondering the appropriate House points. It was FOUR days from the Chamber of the Stone to the Leaving Feast. The feast was probaby the first time in all that four days that Dumbledore has a minutes peace. I can understand why Dumbledore thought the feast was as good a time as any to deal with it. But I will agree it was a bit excessive and an unnecessary degree of let down for Slytherin. Once he knew in his mind that the points were going to be assign, he should have had the totals boards, which I believe are out in the hallways in the school common area (school common, not house common). That would have at least given people some advanced notice, however, Gryffindor victory would have still been as sweet, and Slytherin defeat would have still stung. But the fact is, Slytherin didn't win. When the feast started, Slytherin HAD NOT WON, they were simply in the lead, and had an /assumed/ victory. When justly deserved points were finally tallied, Slytherin came up short. They lost. As someone else pointed out, it's highly unlikely that this was the first time in 1,000 years that last minute point shifted the victory to another house. Conclusion, I think Dumbledore was pretty busy during those four day. Just my opinion. bboy_mn From oppen at mycns.net Fri Jan 31 09:29:32 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 03:29:32 -0600 Subject: Quirrel dead? Message-ID: <014101c2c90b$442b3220$44570043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 51233 Do we _know_ that Quirrel is dead? Professor Dumbledore says that Voldemort "left Quirrel to die." He does _not_ say that Quirrel is dead, in so many words. I can't believe that if Quirrel was not dead when Voldemort was driven from him, Professor Dumbledore would just leave him to die if he could be saved. He might well be in St. Mungo's, (maybe Harry will see him there?) or in the Ministry of Magic answering lots of questions about what Dark Lords eat for breakfast. We all _assume_ that Quirrel is dead, but until I see the body (so to speak) or somebody I trust *coughDumbledorecoughcough* says that he's definitely dead, pushing up daisies, an ex-Professor, singing in the Heavenly Choir Invisibule, and so on and so forth, I will withhold my judgement. JKR is the mistress of surprises, and may well have him up her sleeve. "So! You thought I was dead, did you, Voldemort? Well, I'm NOT! Here's a few curses to get back at you! Bwahahaha!" From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Fri Jan 31 09:33:26 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 04:33:26 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quirrel dead? Message-ID: <6.8ac1948.2b6b9ce6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51234 In a message dated 1/31/2003 4:28:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, oppen at mycns.net writes: > We all _assume_ that Quirrel is dead, but until I see the body (so to speak) > or somebody I trust *coughDumbledorecoughcough* says that he's definitely > dead, pushing up daisies, an ex-Professor, singing in the Heavenly Choir > Invisibule, and so on and so forth, I will withhold my judgement. JKR is > the mistress of surprises, and may well have him up her sleeve. Voldemort also "assumes" Quirrell is dead: "The servant (Quirrell) died when I left his body." (GoF. Ch. 33) Do you trust Voldie's word? ^^ ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drednort at alphalink.com.au Fri Jan 31 09:44:36 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 20:44:36 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quirrel dead? In-Reply-To: <014101c2c90b$442b3220$44570043@hppav> Message-ID: <3E3AE034.17254.A34652@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 51235 On 31 Jan 2003 at 3:29, Eric Oppen wrote: > Do we _know_ that Quirrel is dead? > > Professor Dumbledore says that Voldemort "left Quirrel to die." > > He does _not_ say that Quirrel is dead, in so many words. Voldemort says he is dead - so I guess it depends on whether you believe him. "'Then... four years ago... the means for my return seemed assured. A wizard -young, foolish, and gullible - wandered across my path in the forest I had made my home. Oh, he seemed the very chance I had been dreaming of... for he was a teacher at Dumbledore's school... he was easy to bend to my will... he brought me back to this country, and after a while, I took possession of his body, to supervise him closely as he carried out my orders. But my plan failed. I did not manage to steal the Philosopher's Stone. I was not to be assured immortal life. I was thwarted... thwarted, once again, by Harry Potter...' Silence once more; nothing was stirring, not even the leaves on the yew tree. The Death Eaters were quite motionless, the glittering eyes in their masks fixed upon Voldemort, and upon Harry. 'The servant died when I left his body, and I was left as weak as ever I had been,'" Goblet of Fire, page 567, Australian printing. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Fri Jan 31 10:44:20 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 10:44:20 -0000 Subject: Percy the PA (was Crouch's memory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51236 Grey Wolf asked: > Now, the real interesting question is: how does an absolute newbie, > that has been in the ministry for less than a year, manage to climb far > enough to be Crouch's personal assistant and substitute when he is > unavailable (for example, as Tournament judge)? Just a bit of experience of the way the UK civil service works here. Very senior civil servants, particularly those who are not merely general administrators but have some sort of specialist advice role (e.g. Chief Scientific Advisor) will usually have *two* assistants. One will be a PA as conventionally understood, typically someone with extensive secretarial experience and organisational ability. That person will take up the burden of the servant role that Elkins describes (i.e. to the outside observer being the most powerful person in the organisation because they control the diary!). The other will be a junior person who has been identified as having potential, and is intended should get a broad range of experience, in particular the opportunity to observe the workings of the upper reaches. That person will support their boss in their specialist role, dealing with, for example more straightforward issues (cauldron bottoms anyone?) that still need the authority of the head. Drafting memos for signature, for example. One might deduce that Percy has shown an aptitude for languages, for example, though where his education would have given him opportunity escapes me. As a person with an outstanding academic record, he fits the bill, though. I'd say it's a little unusual in the Muggle world for that to be a *first* job, but such people are usually fairly young and junior. Stereotypically male. It could explain some of Percy's attitude to his father: he has deduced that the system has marked him out for the greatness Arthur has not achieved. He hasn't yet learned that the number of people marked out early in their careers significantly exceeds the number of destination slots available. I would dismiss Elkins' remarks about personal devotion as not being applicable, were it not that these people are known in the trade as catamites. David From skelkins at attbi.com Fri Jan 31 10:44:54 2003 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 10:44:54 -0000 Subject: Humor and Morality (WAS: Who's More Out of Line?) In-Reply-To: <001001c2c890$107a6de0$0e00a8c0@Sunstone.sunstoneonline> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51237 Tom asked (a great question!): > For everyone who got so upset over Snape's treatment of Hermione: > were you equally upset when Crouch/Moody turned Malfoy into a > ferret and started bouncing him around? Upset? Oh, I found the ferret bouncing incident far more *upsetting.* The reason, though, had nothing to do with either the moral positioning of the actors *or* my personal fondness for the characters involved. Instead, it had everything to do with the *author's* perceived moral positioning, and how that differed from my own. I thought Snape's comment to Hermione was ghastly. Perfectly ghastly. It was gratuitously cruel, unconscionable, a totally vicious thing to say to an adolescent girl (and I agree with Shaun, by the way, that the long silence indicated to my mind that it was also a most calculated and *deliberate* act of verbal cruelty). It was an abuse of his power and his authority. Not nice behavior at all. But I didn't feel that the author wanted me to read it any other way. It was therefore not particularly *upsetting* to me. I thought that Snape had been a right bastard, I felt a bit of vicarious indignation on Hermione's behalf, and I winced a little imagining myself in Hermione's shoes. But really, I experienced nothing too extreme in the way of emotional response there. Mainly, I just read it as Snape being Snape. (I am very fond of Snape, you know, but I would never try to argue that he is not profoundly *unkind.*) Now, ferret bounce was ghastly as well, and also gratuitous and cruel, and also an abuse of Crouch/Moody's power and authority. It was not Okay Behavior. Not IMO, at any rate. And it was also, to my mind, rather painfully described, with all of that lashing about and squealing that Ferret!Draco was doing. Yet the authorial voice gave the impression of moral *approval.* This made it upsetting to me as a reader in a way that "I see no difference" simply was not. It is always upsetting to me when I feel as if my own moral compass and the author's are rather severely misaligned. I don't know *why* this should be so upsetting, mind you. Heaven knows that the books for which this *isn't* the case are few and far between! And yet, somehow, it still always does have the power to annoy and upset me. ----------- The conversation then moved on, however, to the question of which of the two scenes readers found more *funny.* Hmmm. Well, clearly (as per usual) I seem to be in the minority here. I really didn't find the ferret bouncing scene at all amusing the first time around (although on re-read, knowing who "Moody" is, I do find it rather funny). Snape's "I see no difference" line, on the other hand, I found quite risible. Why? Well, because the types of humor on which Ferret Bounce relies are slapstick, physical sadism, and "comeuppance humor," none of which are forms of humor that usually do a whole lot for me. What can I say? That's just not my sense of humor. "I see no difference," on the other hand, is humor based in psychological and verbal sadism, which is a type of humor that I almost always find very funny indeed. Ferret Bounce *becomes* funny for me on re-reading because once you know what's really going on, the humor of the scene becomes rooted in dark irony, which similarly is a type of humor that I almost always enjoy. I would like to point out, though, that whether or not something strikes one as *funny* does not necessarily have any bearing at all on whether or not one finds it *moral.* I didn't personally consider either Snape's behavior *OR* Crouch/Moody's in the slightest bit ethical or justified or acceptable or "good." Not at all. Not in the least. But since when has comedy ever been *moral?* Shaun wrote: > It was funny. It was also totally unacceptable. Yes! Thank you, Shaun! I think that's a really important distinction to keep in mind. Humor is notoriously subjective, and it is also quite amoral. Most forms of comedy involve the idea of somebody being hurt or humiliated or otherwise discomfited. There are exceptions -- puns, whimsy, some types of wordplay -- but for the most part, comedy *is* cruel. Farce, black humor, ghetto humor, "comeuppance humor," insult humor...they're all about people either behaving badly or having bad things happen to them (or both), aren't they? This issue came up a while back, actually, in regard to the Ton-Tongue Toffee scene, when as now, people started feeling a bit defensive over the perceived need to justify their enjoyment of "comeuppance humor" on moral grounds. Interestingly enough, "I see no difference" came up as an example in that discussion, too; although there it was being contrasted with Ton-Tongue, rather than with Ferret Bounce, the fundamental question -- when do people find depictions of cruel and abusive behavior being perpetrated on the weak by the strong a source of humour? -- was the same. Back then, I wrote: -------------- Yet this whole humour issue really seems to be upsetting people, and I'm still trying to understand the reasons for that. Let me try this as a proposal, just to see if it resonates with people. Dicey has identified a type of slapstick which takes as its operative principle: "Only if the victim isn't realistically enough depicted for us to take his pain too seriously is it funny." Could it be, perhaps, that there is a related form of humour, one which takes as its operative principle: "Only if the aggressor is morally *clean* is it funny?" In other words, is it true that for some people the morality or ethics of the characters really *does* have direct bearing on whether or not they find a scene that involves violence amusing? Is THAT why people were conflating the issues of whether the twins are funny and whether their behavior is bullying? I hadn't realized that there were people who held that view of humour. In my conception of comedy, the moral positioning of the actors doesn't really have very much to do with whether or not something is funny (although the moral positioning of the author sometimes can: a dark comedy about the Klan, for example, I really *would* consider funny or not in large part based on what I perceived the author's attitude on the subject to be). Immoral actions can be (and very often are) portrayed in a humorous light. Very many forms of comedy involve some form of harm or discomfiture. Nor is "Danger Averted" comedy the only type of humour out there. Sometimes things are funny not because *no* harm is done, but because in fact a great *deal* of harm is being done. So I think that we might want to be careful about saying that it's not okay to laugh at certain things when we see them depicted in fiction. If we were to declare all forms of comedy which involve people being unkind each other or people getting hurt off-limits, then that really wouldn't leave us with very much to laugh at, would it? But surely the question of humour is a different one from the question of characterization, isn't it? That Voldemort's actions are occasionally played for very dark humour doesn't make him any less of a sadist. That Snape's verbal abuse is often quite funny doesn't make him any less of a bully. That the Dursleys' locking Harry in the cupboard beneath the stairs or feeding him on nothing but watery soup is a comedic depiction of child abuse doesn't make the Dursleys admirable models of good parenting. What the characters' behavior reveals about them is a completely different issue than that of whether or not we find them *funny.* ------------------ Sorry to quote myself like this, but it was either that or write it all over again, and I'm lazy. ;-) Part of the reason, I think, that I always feel such a need to emphasize this distinction is because I myself have a really really *sick* sense of humor. So you can imagine that I'm not altogether comfortable with the idea that finding something humorous implies moral approval! If I were to do that, then there would really be just no hope for me. You see, I thought the funniest scene in GoF was Graveyard. So when Alla asks: > Am I allowed to be amused and at the same time very bothered by > that accident? My instinctive response is: "Good lord. I certainly *hope* so!" Another reason I feel the need to draw the distinction gets back to what I was saying last week, about the perils of assuming things about how people might treat others in real life based on their emotional reactions to the text. John Wall touched on that when he wrote: > I'll confess my guilty pleasure right now - I don't want to see > Malfoy redeemed in any way, shape, or form. I want to see him lose. > A bit immature on my part? Probably, but again, these books are > works of fiction - probably the most entertaining works of fiction > I've ever read. So I allow myself the guilty pleasure of the double > standard - it's ok when Crouch/Moody does this to Malfoy, but it's > not ok when Snape does it to Hermione. Yup. It tends not to bother us nearly so much when bad things happen to characters we don't like. What a shocker there, eh? ;-) I don't think that anyone needs to feel *guilty* about this, though. Really, don't we all sometimes take a bit of vindictive satisfaction in seeing characters we really dislike have bad things happen to them? It doesn't make anyone a vindictive or mean-spirited person in real life. I believe that fiction exists, in large part, to serve as an outlet for just that sort of emotion. I don't consider it at all immature, myself. I think that it's just...well, *normal.* When discussing the behavior of characters on *moral* grounds, I do try not to let favoritism sway my judgement too much, although perhaps this is a losing battle. I do, at least, genuinely try to recognize and acknowledge my biases. But trying to look at least somewhat dispassionately at the characters' *ethics* doesn't mean that I feel the same *emotion* in regard to their behavior, or in regard to the victims of their misdeeds. (It's really hard for me to feel much of *anything* for a character like Dudley Dursley, for example. YMMV.) It just means that I'm trying to evaluate the question on the basis of different criteria than I would be if the question were one of reader sympathy, engagement, identification or affection. Elkins From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 10:33:59 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 10:33:59 -0000 Subject: FILK: "The Egg" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51238 This is a filk of the song "The Egg" from the musical "1776". In the musical the egg hatched an American Bald Eagle. Here in the Wizarding World, things are a bit different. -Haggridd (with apologies to John Adams, Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson) The Egg Scene: Hagrid's Hut. Hagrid has reluctantly admitted the Trio to his hut, which has all the windows shut tight, and there is a roaring fire in the fireplace. It is boiling hot. The Trio is criticizing Hagrid about his new acquisition, a heavy black ovoid object. Hagrid: It was at the old Hog's Head Ev'ry hand I laid down was a winner. Ron: You should have stayed in bed Or just baked your rock cakes for diner. Harry: You should have known 'twas no black stone You carried home in your wagon. Hermione: You had to see in the library It was the egg of a dragon. Hagrid: Two wizards, a giant, and a witch-- Smart, brave and always game For any kind of fun-- Hermione: But this job we shall shun Giving dragons a good name. Ron: Name? What name? Hagrid: 'E's Norbert! And I'm his mummy! The Trio: We're waiting for the screech, screech, screech Of a dragon being born. Hermione: Waiting for your hut to burn 'Cause this stifling hut is made of wood and Right by the Forbidden Forest. You have the fireplace quite hot enough To hatch that stone-- Hagrid: Herm... but that's the egg! The Trio: You know that it's against our laws For that horrifying monster Made of scales, teeth and claws Any longer to remain at Hogwarts Right by the Forbidden Forrest. Ron: Besides, you'll run out of chicken blood To feed that beast And brandy isn't cheap. The Trio: The dragon's going to have to go From the grounds of Hogwarts now. The Ministry will just say no To your plan to raise a great huge dragon No matter how "interesting". Ron: No matter how strong your mania There's a dragon preserve in Romania Where Charlie will give him a good home. The Trio: No matter how strong your mania He has to go to Romania Where Charlie will give him a good home! From gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 11:50:06 2003 From: gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com (gingersnape1966 ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 11:50:06 -0000 Subject: our POV (was Re: Who's more out of line?) In-Reply-To: <001001c2c890$107a6de0$0e00a8c0@Sunstone.sunstoneonline> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51239 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "John Hatch" wrote: > Tome writes: > > For everyone who got so upset over Snape's treatment of Hermione: > were you equally upset when Crouch/Moody turned Malfoy into a ferret > and started bouncing him around? > There have been some *great* discussions about authorial intent, teacher/student roles, etc. but I am going to wonder a bit obout POV (point of view). JKR tells the story from Harry's POV. Therefore the Draco incedent is funny, whereas the Hermoine incedent is not. At least to Harry. And a few of his friends. And some readers. That's where our POV comes in. Regarding the Draco incedent: Think back to when you first read it. Did it bring back a time when you were humiliated (or transfigured) by a teacher? Or did it bring back a memory of a classmate you *wish* would have gotten that sort of treatment? I wonder if that has anything to do with preception? Those offended and angered may have been reading it as a real life type of incedent, whereas those of us who found it amusing may be recalling someone real. In my case, the guy who beat me up after band if I didn't have his music alphabetized, but never told me which end of the word to start at, so there was always a "reason" for the beating. Of course, he was never caught and punished, so this was a vicarious "comeuppance". A 25-year-old wish fullfillment. All in the safe setting of a fantasy. I wish no ill on this classmate now, but I can go back and imagine "wouldn't it have been funny if Moody had been our band teacher?" Best regards to all and thank you to all on both sides who contributed interesting reading material, Ginger By the way, did anyone feel sorry for the fellows sent to the hospital wing with leeks sprouting out of their ears? Sorry for Gilbert Wimple stuck with his horns? Or did we see them as a humourous reminder that we are not in the real world? From gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 12:04:55 2003 From: gingersnape1966 at yahoo.com (gingersnape1966 ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 12:04:55 -0000 Subject: What to do with the stone Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51240 This started out with a post re: House points and Dumbledore. I have been up and down the thread and have not been able to find the message that got me started thinking on this. I appologize to whomever it was as I am unable to give credit. I also appologize if this has been discussed before. So (finally) to my point: What did Harry intend to do with the stone after he got it? He went down to get it assuming that he was keeping it from Snape rather than Quirrel, but the end recipient would have been the same. He knew Dumbledore was on his way to the Ministry. McGonagall had been quite stern in telling him that he was to forget about it. What was he planning to do? Stuff it in the pocket of his jammies, wander back to Gryffindor Tower and have a nice nap, waiting until the next day to say, "oh, by the way, Headmaster, here's the stone you've spent the last year devising ways of protecting. I got it out for you."? Wake McGonagall and ask her to keep it in her nightstand? Feed it to Fluffy with the assumption that all good things must come to pass? How on earth did he think that getting it *away* from the protection would keep it safer? It never occured to me. That's what I love about this site. Ginger From drednort at alphalink.com.au Fri Jan 31 12:17:10 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 23:17:10 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] our POV (was Re: Who's more out of line?) In-Reply-To: References: <001001c2c890$107a6de0$0e00a8c0@Sunstone.sunstoneonline> Message-ID: <3E3B03F6.7838.12EFA37@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 51241 On 31 Jan 2003 at 11:50, gingersnape1966 gingersnape19 wrote: > There have been some *great* discussions about authorial intent, > teacher/student roles, etc. but I am going to wonder a bit obout POV > (point of view). JKR tells the story from Harry's POV. Therefore > the Draco incedent is funny, whereas the Hermoine incedent is not. > At least to Harry. And a few of his friends. And some readers. > > That's where our POV comes in. Regarding the Draco incedent: Think > back to when you first read it. Did it bring back a time when you > were humiliated (or transfigured) by a teacher? Or did it bring back > a memory of a classmate you *wish* would have gotten that sort of > treatment? I wonder if that has anything to do with preception? Well, for me, point of view is a definite factor. I was a victim of bullying, including a lot that involved the indifference of teachers, and that certainly has an impact on how I see Snape's treatment of Hermione, and on how I see Crouch/Moody's treatment of Draco. No bones about it. I feel deeply sorry for Hermione and viscerally enraged at Snape. While I have a strong emotional feeling that Draco deserved what he got. > Those offended and angered may have been reading it as a real life > type of incedent, whereas those of us who found it amusing may be > recalling someone real. In my case, the guy who beat me up after > band if I didn't have his music alphabetized, but never told me which > end of the word to start at, so there was always a "reason" for the > beating. Of course, he was never caught and punished, so this was a > vicarious "comeuppance". A 25-year-old wish fullfillment. All in > the safe setting of a fantasy. I wish no ill on this classmate now, > but I can go back and imagine "wouldn't it have been funny if Moody > had been our band teacher?" Yes, I definitely can relate to that. But at the same time as I acknowledge this emotional reaction, I believe I can keep the logical, rational part of my thinking free of it. As I said in a previous post, I found the scene funny - but I also thought it was unacceptable. Likewise, I think this applies with the case involving Hermione and Snape. Yes, I have an emotional reaction. But even if the absence of that reaction, I believe I would find what he did very wrong. Something I should make clear. I admire Snape on other levels. To have the strength to turn away from evil is something I respect. And with regards to Sirius... when he saw what was happening on the Marauder's Map, what did he see. From his perspective, he saw a mass murderer in the company of a dangerous monster (both of whom hold him in personal contempt), and three students in danger in their presence... and he went into the lion's den. I do admire Snape on many levels. But - and if you want to talk about emotional reactions, this is definitely one - I want to admire Snape as a teacher. I had some... nasty... teachers. Mean ones. At least that is how I saw them when I was a kid. But they helped save my life, and they helped me become a better person. They really did. I want to give Snape the benefit of the doubt, I didn't give them. I *want* to believe that Snape isn't a complete and total (insert foul imprecation of choice). But I can't move beyond his treatment of Hermione, and the incident with her teeth. Part of the reason that scene effects me is that it basically means I can't believe what I want to believe. > Best regards to all and thank you to all on both sides who > contributed interesting reading material, > Ginger > > By the way, did anyone feel sorry for the fellows sent to the > hospital wing with leeks sprouting out of their ears? Sorry for > Gilbert Wimple stuck with his horns? Or did we see them as a > humourous reminder that we are not in the real world? I didn't feel that sorry for either of them - but not because they were a humourous reminder. From memory, the reason I didn't feel sorry for them was because in the case of the leeks, it was the result of a fight - and if you get in a fight, you pretty much deserve what you get. And with Gilbert Wimple, I don't have enough information to know what caused it - it could have been his own stupidity - or even if he minds having the horns. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From skelkins at attbi.com Fri Jan 31 12:40:15 2003 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 12:40:15 -0000 Subject: Characters you hate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51242 Derannimer asked: > Um. . . how are we defining "hate" here? An excellent question. What Does It Mean To "Hate" A Character? My answer to "what characters do you hate" is utterly dependent on what definition of "hating" people are asking about. > Look, here's the thing. There are *plenty* of characters whose > company I would not especially enjoy were I to meet them in real > life. But I enjoy *reading* probably every single character in the > books. And I've read people on this thread saying things that give > me the impression that some people don't even like to *read* > certain characters. Well, a lot of the time people really *don't* like to read certain characters. Sometimes characters just don't work for you: you don't enjoy their scenes, you don't enjoy their shticks, and then you end up resenting them for taking up "page time" that could have been spent on something else. > But a lot of people here are saying that one character or another > really *irritates* them; which I am taking to mean that they really > don't enjoy reading them. So is this true? Oh, absolutely! I, for example, simply cannot bear the Dursleys. The Dursley sequences are absolutely my least favorite thing about the books. I deeply resent the fact that they open each novel, thus forcing me to suffer through their one-to-three chapters before I can get on to the enjoyable stuff. When they do things like locking Harry in his room, then that is a Good Thing, as far as I'm concerned, because it means that I'll probably have to read *less* of them than I would if Harry were interacting with them more directly. And I can never wait for Harry to slip free of their clutches, not so much because I'm rooting for him as because I just want to be able to stop *reading* them already! Why do I dislike the Dursleys so much? Oh, I don't know. A number of reasons. They're more broadly caricatured than suits my personal tastes, for one thing. They're far more cartoonishly depicted than even the most grotesque of the Hogwarts characters (Trelawney, for example), which means that they also always seem strangely at odds with the more subtle shadings of the rest of the fictive world to me. They don't seem to...*fit,* somehow. They feel incongruous. They also strike me as somewhat derivative. They seem very Roald Dahl to me, and while I like Roald Dahl just fine when Roald Dahl does Roald Dahl, I don't like it nearly so much when JKR tries to do Roald Dahl. If you get my drift. The humour of their sequences also tends to be very broad, slapstick "comeuppance" humour, which really isn't a type of comedy that I enjoy. Dudley comes in for a lot of "fat humour" as well, which similarly isn't a form of comedy that I enjoy. Did I leave anything out? No. No, I think that's about it. Oh. And I also find them a bit irritating as our textual representatives of all things "Muggle." As silly as this may sound, sometimes that does sort of offend me. I take it personally. ("Over- engage with the text much, Elkins?") This is a different issue, though, than the questions of which characters I think that I would most dislike in real *life,* or which characters instill in me the greatest sense of moral disapproval, or which characters make me feel the most angry with them, or which characters I find the least sympathetically portrayed, or which characters I secretly (or not so secretly) want to see evil things happen to. Quite a few of the characters who would fulfill the above criteria also qualify as the characters I most *like* to read about. Elkins From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 31 13:09:09 2003 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (Catherine Coleman) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 13:09:09 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51243 >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "firekat482 " > wrote: >> ... This awful, obvious show of? favoritism really grates on my >> nerves. By awarding the points this way Dumbledore shows a total >> lack of respect for the Slytherin house and Snape as well. I would >> imagine that it was a few weeks before Snape felt like talking to >> the Headmaster again. >> >> What Dumbledore should have done IMHO (as the impartial Headmaster >> that he is supposed to be) was award those points as soon he became >> aware of what the Trio had done. By waiting until the last second >> the only thing he accomplished was the further alienation of the >> Slytherin house. And these are the people he cannot afford to >> estrange. >> >> ...EDITED... >> >> ~Jean I'm wondering whether there was a much more practical reason for Dumbledore awarding the points in the way he did. The fact is, that if the points had been awarded immediately after the events, what is the betting that Slytherin would still have won the cup? We have seen blatant examples of favouritism on Snape's part regarding Slytherin and Gryffindor rivalries, and I would have thought that over the next few days Snape would have taken every opportunity to award points to Slytherin and take them away from Gryffindor. Perhaps Dumbledore wanted to be 100% certain of the Gryffindor win, besides showing everyone that HRH *and* Neville were behind setting to rights the appalling loss of points over the Norbert incident. I also think that publicly commenting on Neville's bravery was a very kind thing to do, considering the fact that he had been enduring taunts about his lack of Gryffindor qualities all year. Not only would this be a huge boost to Neville's esteem, but it also shows the other Gryffindors that after being one of the first years responsible for a huge point loss, that he proved himself loyal to the house and its reputation. Just a thought, Catherine From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Fri Jan 31 13:55:50 2003 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 13:55:50 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quirrel dead? References: <6.8ac1948.2b6b9ce6@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51244 IAmLordCassandra at aol.com" Voldemort also "assumes" Quirrell is dead: "The servant (Quirrell) died when I left his body." (GoF. Ch. 33) Do you trust Voldie's word?" Me: Voldie has every reason to lie here. If he abandoned Quirrell, it might cause the DEs to have doubts about their allegiance. Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Lynx412 at aol.com Fri Jan 31 13:59:45 2003 From: Lynx412 at aol.com (Lynx412 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 08:59:45 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Green eyes Message-ID: <47.29bd0446.2b6bdb51@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51245 In a message dated 1/30/03 10:59:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, dorigen at hotmail.com writes: > Okay, it says "Potters," but that could just as easily refer to only James > and Lily doing the waving. My impression is that the mirror showed Harry's > > entire family *on both sides.* His parents were in the front and > foreground, > and both his paternal and maternal relatives were in the background. This > would explain why he saw several people with green eyes -- they were his > mother's relatives. Hm, weird thought... Where are Lily and Petunia's parents and family? Were they, too, slaughtered in the first LV war? Is Petunia the only remaining representative of that family? That would go a long (and semi-justifiable) way to explaining Petunia's hatred of all things wizardly. With Petunia already jealous of Lily and the attention she gets, if Lily's 'oddness' got the rest of the family killed that would have solidified the jealousy into the pure venom we see her display. And then to have Harry dropped on their doorstep? Of course she's viscious to him. And he even has Lily's eyes, possibly a family characteristic that she doesn't share. Cheryl/Lynx, not really fond of petunia, there's no real excuse for her treatment of Harry, even if it is explainable. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Fri Jan 31 14:25:35 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 14:25:35 -0000 Subject: House points and Dumbledore - in context of school stories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51246 Elkins wrote: > To some > people, the last minute victory was indeed (as I agree with you the > author very likely intended it to be) thrilling, exciting, > climactic. A dramatically satisfying end to the story. > > To others, however, it left a very nasty taste in the mouth. > > I confess that I had the latter reaction to the scene, the first time > that I read the book. I did not care for it at all. It was a total > eye-roller for me. In fact, I found it sufficiently annoying that I > probably would never have bothered to read CoS at all, had I not > brought it along with me on the same plane ride. After finishing SS, > it was either CoS, the in-flight mag, or a nap. And I wasn't feeling > sleepy. ;-) > > I didn't really start liking the series until CoS, and part of the > reason for that was that I saw many signs in CoS that the author was > setting about to undercut to number of the things that I had so > DISliked about SS I wonder if one of the things the author is setting up and undercutting is the British School Story. The points award scene didn't press any buttons for me, but I think that's partly because I would see that scene, and a number of other aspects of PS, as fitting in with the school story genre. Taken together, they left me not very impressed with the book. It felt derivative to me. I found the Quidditch scenes tedious for the same reason: reminiscent of Mike at Wrykin by P G Wodehouse (definitely not one of Wodehouse's best, IMO). The existence and behaviour of Draco are equally in line with that tradition. As is a plot which must be worked out within the confines of attending lessons and appearing to obey school rules. OTOH, other things don't fit. Snape's ambiguity. The life and death nature of the conflict. The fact that Harry has a history outside school life (other than a golden age of idyllic childhood from which the protagonist is snatched to start a seemingly cheerless boarding school life). The existence of the magical world as a space to explore, outside of the school world. The cartoonish Dursleys also don't fit, though they didn't recall Dahl to me so much as Grimm: another genre referenced to be left behind, IMO. (Actually I don't like much of Dahl either, even when written by himself ;-) ) Once COS starts, the pattern is fatally wounded IMO simply because Harry is ageing. (To be fair, Wodehouse also took his characters into adulthood, though I don't think they *developed*.) Jennings and Billy Bunter will never get any older, and that I think has some of the same kind of appeal that the points awarding ceremony can have. David From mbroadwater at lulu.com Fri Jan 31 14:16:15 2003 From: mbroadwater at lulu.com (Michael Broadwater) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 09:16:15 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and respect In-Reply-To: <3E39A9EE.70203@btopenworld.com> Message-ID: <8EC25F48-3526-11D7-A7B3-000393681E04@lulu.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51247 On Thursday, Jan 30, 2003, at 17:40 US/Eastern, Irene Mikhlin wrote: > > Are you insinuating that Snape is psychic?? He didn't know that > > Hermione had committed the first two of those three crimes. > > Didn't he? When he confiscated the book from Harry, he saw this > famous blue fire, speciality of Hermione. I think he put two and two > together. Nothing in canon shows that he did. The burden of proof is yours. And, if we're going to go on what we "think" happened, then I feel that out of the 1000 supposed students at Hogwarts, Hermione is not the only one who can create fire, giving a much larger pool of suspects. It's a huge leap to go from "Hermione can create flame" to "Hermione set me on fire even though she was sitting in another part of the stadium and I never saw who did it." > When Hermione was in the hospital wing, it's quite probable > that Madame Pomfrey sought his opinion, or at least mentioned the > incident in the teachers room. Which incident and hospital visit was that? And why would Pomfrey seek Snapes opinion on anything? She's shown that she doesn't like other teachers interfering with her patients. > He might be a right bastard, but he is > not stupid. > Very true, and I never said that he was. However, you are presuming that Snape is in possession of information that we are never shown that he has. If he did "know" that Hermione had stolen from him, he would have punished her with at least detention and loss of house points. He would do the same if he had found out that she had set him on fire. Snape has never shown an unwillingness to punish students. Mike [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From monkykat at aol.com Fri Jan 31 14:57:04 2003 From: monkykat at aol.com (monkykat at aol.com) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 09:57:04 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups]Mirror of Erised Message-ID: <75.8adc469.2b6be8c0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51248 I was thinking about what Harry saw in the Mirror of Erised. Several posts have questioned whether Lord Voldemort killed all of those people and why, iif he did kill off all those people, he wanted to kill off the entire Potter line. It occurs to me though that the mass of people Harry sees in the Mirror of Erised might not be real. I mean, Harry's deepest desire was probably something like being with a big family of people who all love and care about him, so the Mirror of Erised showed him just exactly what he wanted to see. Or, those people could in fact be generations of his family most of which died a long time ago of natural causes. Either way, I don't think its safe to assume that Lord Voldemort killed off all those people or that all those people were in fact Harry's family. Just a thought! Jana From Lynx412 at aol.com Fri Jan 31 15:29:18 2003 From: Lynx412 at aol.com (Lynx412 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 10:29:18 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups]Mirror of Erised Message-ID: <42.346d5827.2b6bf04e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51249 In a message dated 1/31/03 10:17:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, monkykat at aol.com writes: > It occurs to me though that the mass of people Harry sees in the Mirror > of Erised might not be real. I mean, Harry's deepest desire was probably > something like being with a big family of people who all love and care > about > him, so the Mirror of Erised showed him just exactly what he wanted to see. > The same thought occurred to me after I posted. I remembered Ron seeing himself all alone as Head Boy and Quiddich Captain, holding the Quiddich Cup. So, perhaps Harry did see just what he wanted to see in a family. From the evidence, Petunia doesn't look like her sister, perhaps Lily was the one who didn't look like the rest of the Evans clan rather than Petunia. Or, the implication of Ron seeing himself , *ALONE*, Head Boy and Quiddich star, is more sinister...considering the number of theories involving Harry's death defeating Voldemort. Cheryl/Lynx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Fri Jan 31 15:34:21 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 15:34:21 -0000 Subject: Hermione's parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51250 Lisa Armstrong wrote: > Added to this they just hand over money for her birthday (which > falls in the school term) rather than repeat a trip to Diagon Alley > to maybe involve themselves in her 12/13th in a more meaningful way. > > Lisa You are asuming a lot when you say that Hermione's parents can visit Diagon Alley to get a present for their daughter when she's off to school. Canon says that muggles cannot find the entrance to the tavern, that all they see is the buildings at either side. It is obvious that athey can enter the place if in company of a wizard, but a pair of muggles by themselves won't be able to find the place. Thus, since what Hermione wants is a magical pet -or some other form of magical present- they *have* to give her the money to buy it. And, besides, Hermione is the most knowledgable in wizarding matters in the family, it is perfectly reasonable that it is she the one that buys the present anyway. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Fri Jan 31 15:41:59 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 15:41:59 -0000 Subject: What to do with the stone In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51251 Ginger wrote: > > So (finally) to my point: What did Harry intend to do with the stone > after he got it? He went down to get it assuming that he was keeping > it from Snape rather than Quirrel, but the end recipient would have > been the same. > > How on earth did he think that getting it *away* from the > protection would keep it safer? > > It never occured to me. That's what I love about this site. > Ginger There are two main ways of protecting something, Ginger. One is to put it somewhere were it is safe, and sorrounded by as many defenses as you can. For example, you've got the biggest diamond on Earth, so you put it in a safe, dig a hole and throw the safe in, fill the whole with cement, build a castle around it, etc. Of course, f you want to be able to *see* the diamond from time to time, there will always be a big gaping hole in the defenses - a whole called "doors" that allows you to traspass them. This is the basic method that was used in the books to protect the PS. The second method is to hide the object. As long as only you know where it is, the thing it safe. The problem tends to be that if someone wants to steal your diamond, he might outguess you and find it. Where does that take us? Harry wanted to use this method. If he had managed to get hold of the stone, and run away, he would've hidden it in his bedroom, somewhere. It wouldn't be as safe as in the mirror, but Harry didn't know that - he only knew that the thief had learnt how to pass all the defenses, and thus that the stone was ready to be picked (as soon as Dumbledore got out of the way, that is). And,faced with that situation, the stone would certainly be safer in his possesion. Not much more, but every little thing helps. And after all, he didn't have to hide it forever, only until Dumbledore came back. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Jan 31 15:51:50 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 09:51:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: [HPforGrownups]Mirror of Erised Message-ID: <3525937.1044028310054.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51252 Jana wrote: > I was thinking about what Harry saw in the Mirror of Erised. Several posts > have questioned whether Lord Voldemort killed all of those people and why, > iif he did kill off all those people, he wanted to kill off the entire Potter > line. It occurs to me though that the mass of people Harry sees in the Mirror > of Erised might not be real. I mean, Harry's deepest desire was probably > something like being with a big family of people who all love and care about > him, so the Mirror of Erised showed him just exactly what he wanted to see. Exactly what I think. As Dumbledore said, the Mirror gives us neither knowledge or truth. What I think happened is it took the images of Harry's parents from his subconscious mind, as he did live with them for the first 15 months of his life, so those memories would be there. Anyway, it took those images from his mind, showed them along with a various assortment of people who shared characteristics of each of them as well as Harry. Such as knobby knees, unruly hair, and green eyes. Since as far as we or Harry know, his only living relatives are Petunia and Dudley, and neither one of them appeared in the mirror. Because in his mind he wouldn't want them anywhere around, and the mirror knows that. So it didn't show the truth, because if they are part of his family, they should've appeared in the mirror along with the others. But as we know, the mirror doesn't show the truth. Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From heidit at netbox.com Fri Jan 31 16:14:00 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 16:14:00 -0000 Subject: House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51253 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "errolowl " wrote: > > However, they > had not yet WON the cup this year. They were merely leading (yes, by > the school rules) the points race. It so happened that the trio won > more points for their house before the winner of the cup was > definitively announced. I agree that the timing of the announcement > was lousy. But it was lousy because the room was already decorated > and the Slytherins had prematurely congratulated themselves. My > question here is -- Who decorates the hall for the feast? Did the > Slytherins put up the house colors anticipating the victory? If so, > it wasn't in the best taste to do it before the cup was > announced. I get the idea that traditionally the hall would be > instantly decorated with the winning house's colors the minute the > winner is announced. If the slyths jumped the gun, then they just > compounded their disappointment. They assumed they had an > insurmountable lead and started celebrating too early. > Where do you "get the idea"? Where's the canon? I think that canon actually supports a conclusion that Slytherin *had* won the house cup, as in the end of GoF, in the Leaving Feast scene, Harry entered the Great Hall noting that instead of the house colours that usually filled the hall for the Leaving Feast, there were black banners, in Cedric's memory. In fact GoF says that the Hall was "usually decorated" with such colours for the leaving feast - which to my mind cannot mean anything but a conclusion that upon entering the Hall for a Leaving Feast, the victorious house's colours were hanging. Yes, it's vague as to whether the house hangs the colours itself, but it's certainly not vague as to whether the colours should be hanging at least upon everyone's entrance to the Great Hall. So any allegation that the Slytherins were somehow jumping the gun, upon my read of the book, cannot be considered based in canon. Heidi From sally at gristiegraphics.co.uk Fri Jan 31 15:20:14 2003 From: sally at gristiegraphics.co.uk (sallygrist ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 15:20:14 -0000 Subject: Does Snape hate muggleborns? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51254 After following the recent thread, "Who's more out of line?", it started me thinking that Snape's mistreatment of Hermione may possibly be indicative of his hidden loathing for muggleborns. Although I don't really have much evidence to support this, it does lead me to think that as an ex-Death Eater, Snape must have at some point upheld the racist beliefs of both Salazar Slytherin and Voldemort. Otherwise he would have been in conflict with the fundamental principles of the Death Eater movement right from the start. Is there any canon to show that Snape is, or was racist? As I see it, there are a number of possibilities regarding Snape's opinion on mudblood prejudice: A) As a DE he supported this prejudice in the past, but something happened that made him change his mind, possibly the reason why he left the group. - I guess this is opening the door to a much bigger subject; if we knew what happened in Snape's past, we'd know the answers to a lot of other questions too so I'm reluctant to open that can of worms. B) He never really went along with this prejudice, but became a DE because the rest of the theoretical 'prospectus' looked pretty appealing anyway. - Its a pretty wishy-washy theory, but given that we know next to nothing about Snape's past, its reasonable to assume that he could have been in a situation where he felt that the benefits of becoming a DE outweighed the disadvantages. C) He was never prejudiced and only became a DE because he was acting as a spy for the 'good side' - So if he was always a good guy, then we still don't know the true reason why he has such a chip on his shoulder. Could a schoolboy feud *really* make someone *that* bitter and twisted for years to come? D) He is still prejudiced, but keeps his opinions hidden. - Which he might do if he were anxious not to give off DE signals to all and sundry, but instead lead people to believe that he's a reformed character. We know that Dumbledore trusts him, but we don't know if he's really shed all those DE ideals. Just because he no longer wishes to associate himself with a company of underworld terrorists, it doesn't mean he's suddenly become whiter than white. If he *were* still harbouring loathsome thoughts towards muggleborns, sneaky attacks such as the teeth incident could be a suitably gratifying way of relieving a few pent-up emotions. So regardless of Snape's current state of mind, the facts remain that at one time or another he probably was racist towards muggleborns. He currently displays an outward dislike for Hermione, however, no more so than he does for Harry so this doesn't necessarily mean that his negativity towards her *is* racially motivated. As unpleasant as Snape can be to Hermione, as far as I'm aware, references to 'mudbloods' are always voiced by the Malfoy clan, or from Riddle/Voldemort, and never by Snape himself. Clearly it wouldn't do his image much good to be openly voicing opinions of this nature, but OTOH he doesn't hesitate in making his private feelings towards Harry public, as irrational and unpopular as they may be. But we don't know the full reason why Snape hates Harry in the first place. Its possible that he hates him because he caused the downfall of the Dark Lord, who's ideals and opinions (theoretically) Snape held in the highest regard. In which case his hatred of Harry is just a manifestation of his loathing of mudbloods, and like Voldemort, to him Harry is the reason his idealistic world of pureblood wizards doesn't exist. But if he does still withhold his mudblood prejudices, surely he would be more vindictive towards not only Hermione but all the wizards who are not of pureblood descent? I think that to him, Hermione is less of a walking epitame of everything his fundamental beliefs stand against, and more just an 'irritating know-it-all'. So does anyone have any canon to show that Snape supports, or has in the past supported Slytherin/Voldemorts' prejudice of muggleborn wizards? And if he did, but no longer subscribes to the theory of racial hatred, what happened to make him change his mind? Sally I normally just lurk, its taken me all day to piece together something I think may be worthy of submission so please go gentle with me From melclaros at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 17:08:15 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 17:08:15 -0000 Subject: A Quick (well ... kinda) Snape Thought In-Reply-To: <34.3462f847.2b6b3d14@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51255 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: > Okay, here's the thing: I've been reading all these posts about how Snape > could be nice and how he's irrational and all this other stuff. But he's > NOT. He's Snape. Wouldn't the book series be really boring if everyone were > nice and good and true all the time? Snape adds a dimension to the books! ME: Nice!Snape would be Gilderoy Lockhart. I call Lockhart the AntiSnape. You can pick ANY part of Snape from appearance and fashion sense to talent and experience and you will find its opposite in Lockhart. I'm convinced that JKR actually wrote Lockhart with that in mind and set up the dueling club to rub it in. Even the kids, who HATE Snape saw him as the 'hero' there! > Not everyone is gonna be nice to people - even when horrible things happen. > Example (a tiny OT, but it serves a point): Recently, a girl's mother died. > She's in band and choir with me. My friend Laura doesn't really like the > girl. I asked if we were going to the funeral home and she said "No, we > don't like Danica." And that to me, is what JKR means by "Snape is a deeply horrible person". Not *evil* in the sense that he's going to go postal at the end of book 7, take a bite out of the nearest neck for a quick energy boost and jump on the head table using Neville as a human shield while screaming *"I am VOLDEMORT! YOU FOOLS!"* but in the sense that he'll just never, ever be the warm, fuzzy type. He's not going to "come around" in the end and start handing out Happy Potion. Melpomene--Apprentice Snapologist (if I get something really wrong, will I get detention?) From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 17:10:58 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 17:10:58 -0000 Subject: Green eyes In-Reply-To: <47.29bd0446.2b6bdb51@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51256 Cheryl wrote: Where are Lily and Petunia's parents and family? I reply: Precisely. The Dursleys are Harry's last remaining relatives... and since Harry detests them do much, you'd think that he'd notice them in the mirror. So they should be in there too, if Harry's supposed to be seeing his family. Dumbledore, who understands how the mirror works, never says anything to the effect that these people are Harry's "dead" relatives, he says that Harry sees his "family." -Tom From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 17:23:33 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 17:23:33 -0000 Subject: House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51257 HEIDI WROTE: I think that canon actually supports a conclusion that Slytherin *had* won the house cup, as in the end of GoF, in the Leaving Feast scene, Harry entered the Great Hall noting that instead of the house colours that usually filled the hall for the Leaving Feast, there were black banners, in Cedric's memory. In fact GoF says that the Hall was "usually decorated" with such colours for the leaving feast - which to my mind cannot mean anything but a conclusion that upon entering the Hall for a Leaving Feast, the victorious house's colours were hanging. So any allegation that the Slytherins were somehow jumping the gun, upon my read of the book, cannot be considered based in canon. END QUOTE. I REPLY: "Listen, you've got to be up for the end-of-year feast tomorrow. The points are all in and Slytherin won, of course -" [Ron to Harry] PS/SS 302 It seems to be that canon defnitely suggests that everyone intuitively knew that Slytherin had won the House Cup. Of course, Scott (I think it was Scott) pointed out that Dumbledore technically hadn't announced it, so there's that to support the notion that no- one wins the Cup until it is formally announced at the Leaving Feast. Still, no one seemed to have any doubts that the Slyths had won - so whatever the case, Dumbledore's last minute overturning of the results was unorthodox, to say the least. Not to mention, totally, completely, radically unfair. ;-) -Tom From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 17:28:52 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 17:28:52 -0000 Subject: Characters you hate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51258 Without any concrete canon passages: Filch and Mrs. Norris. I don't like them at *all.* -Tom From jtdogberry at hotmail.com Fri Jan 31 17:48:07 2003 From: jtdogberry at hotmail.com (jtdogberry ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 17:48:07 -0000 Subject: House points, Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51259 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Catherine Coleman wrote: > Perhaps Dumbledore wanted to be 100% certain of the Gryffindor win, > besides showing everyone that HRH *and* Neville were behind setting to > rights the appalling loss of points over the Norbert incident. > > I also think that publicly commenting on Neville's bravery was a very > kind thing to do, considering the fact that he had been enduring taunts > about his lack of Gryffindor qualities all year. Not only would this be > a huge boost to Neville's esteem, but it also shows the other > Gryffindors that after being one of the first years responsible for a > huge point loss, that he proved himself loyal to the house and its > reputation. Just looking at this part again and compairing to what DD said at the end of GOF, I see a bit of a connection, how many of us know that our friend are doing the wrong thing and stay silent? I think everyone has had that. Neville chose something that was right, he didn't know that they were trying to save everyone and Harry never offered him an reason, He never even said sorry for the first time when Neville tried to warn him about being out of bed. By telling everyone that Neville did the right thing to stand up to his friends when they were doing the wrong thing (ingonring the fact they were saving the stone)it's gives a message of don't be afraid to do what you think is right, stand up to those close to you and don't be drag into something you will regret (IMO this is what could have happened to Snape), It could potentially be more important then you think. IMO anyway, hope it makes sense. Dogberry From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Fri Jan 31 18:03:33 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 18:03:33 -0000 Subject: Cynicism and Betrayal in Canon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51260 Jim Ferer wrote: > It's not hard to find speculation here about Evil!Lupin, > Evil!Dumbledore, Evil!McGonagall, Evil!Sirius, and so on; who did I > miss? Someone, I'm sure. That would be Ron. > If JKR ever did write Evil!Dumbledore, etc., it would be nothing less > than the worst betrayal of readers ever by an author, and I could > never forgive her for it. JKR writes for all readers, not just young > ones, but many of her readers are young and she knows it. What > attitude would that send to her readers? > > 1. People are no damn good. > > 2. Everyone will betray you sooner or later, so look out for yourself > only. Get them before they get you. > > 3. Goodness and friendship is illusory; only evil is real. Loyalty is > for chumps. I think that would in fact depend on the circumstances of the revelation of the 'evil' character. If Dumbledore turns to evil, and good wins out anyway, that would be a powerful positive message by the standards of most of us, wouldn't it? If Draco were to turn good (in some admittedly vague sense since we don't know to what extent he can be regarded as evil), and thus present Voldemort with an opportunity to attack the trio as they start to trust him, how would we interpret that? And there's the more subtle messages like 'people are no damn good, but that includes me, so I will show respect and care for these no- good people' As far as many of the theories alluded to above are concerned, it seems to me they are put forward within the existing framework that we have, where somebody is not who they seem: Evil!Quirrell, Evil! Ginny, Evil!Scabbers, Evil!Moody (yes I know Ginny and Moody aren't evil, but you could argue, for instance, that the message of COS is that you can't trust the Ginnys of this world because they are susceptible to being taken over). Admittedly those characters were not in the front rank of the trusted, but it seems to me quite plausible that *someone* fairly major who is already an established part of the series will turn out not to have been what they seemed all along, without damaging the themes JKR is plugging. My money would be on McGonagall, with Lupin turning out to be one of those whose courage fails at a crucial point, without actually having been or turning to evil (in the sense of supporting Voldemort). Of course, we have polls now for all that - go vote! David, cooking up his evil!Hermione theory From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 17:51:06 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 09:51:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A Quick (well ... kinda) Snape Thought In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030131175106.47043.qmail@web21008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51261 "melclaros " wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: > Okay, here's the thing: I've been reading all these posts about how Snape > could be nice and how he's irrational and all this other stuff. But he's > NOT. He's Snape. Wouldn't the book series be really boring if everyone were > nice and good and true all the time? Snape adds a dimension to the books! That is a very good point. Some of Snape's actions, particularly in PoA is irrational even beyond what you can reasonably expect with somebody holding as much animosity to the opposing characters that Snape does. HOWEVER, a lot of the readers forget that this IS a story and a lot of this simply makes for a whole lot better story! I've seen certain actions (such as why Dumbledore cannot find a reliable DADA teacher!) analyized and broken down as it could really handle such analysists. But not everything in this story can withstand analysis. You have to simply suspend disbelief and accept it. The fallacies of some of the characters makes for an interesting and at time highly amusing story! And the basic story IS logical and consistant enough to allow us to ignore minor absurdities that come alone. That's why it's going to go down as such a classic in storytelling. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 17:43:01 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 09:43:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Does Snape hate muggleborns? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030131174301.80315.qmail@web21006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51262 Sally wrote: After following the recent thread, "Who's more out of line?", it started me thinking that Snape's mistreatment of Hermione may possibly be indicative of his hidden loathing for muggleborns. Although I don't really have much evidence to support this, it does lead me to think that as an ex-Death Eater, Me Well, there is one indirect piece of evidence that Snape does not appreciate "muggle borns" very much. Remember when they went into the Slytherine common room to find out if Mallory was the one opening the Chamber of Secrets? Well, the password was "Truebloods." This certainly has anti-muggle connotations and since Snape is the head of the house I cannot believe they would have passwords that he would object to. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hp_lexicon at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 18:29:19 2003 From: hp_lexicon at yahoo.com (hp_lexicon ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 18:29:19 -0000 Subject: Lily's height In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51263 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z " wrote: > Falcon wrote: > > >According to the HP Lexicon, Lily's build is tall and thin. Just > >like James. So, we have two tall parents. More on that in a moment. > > Hey, I'm the first to say Lexicon Steve is a god, Amy, you crack me up. My only hope in the face of such a statement is that none of you actually go to Nimbus and meet me, because "god" is not going to be the first word that pops into your head. Maybe "shlumpy," but not "god." As for the reference in the Lexicon to Lily's height, I checked that page, then I checked the books. The only physical description we have of Lily come from chapter 12 of SS, which includes this paragraph: She was a very pretty woman. She had dark red hair and her eyes -- her eyes are just like mine, Harry thought, edging a little closer to the glass. Bright green -- exactly the same shape, but then he noticed that she was crying; smiling, but crying at the same time. The tall, thin, black-haired man standing next to her put his arm around her. He wore glasses, and his hair was very untidy. It stuck up at the back, just as Harry's did. James is in fact described as tall and thin, but Lily is not. Here is almost certainly what happened. When I created those pages, I did so on the same evening. I wrote James' page first. I copied James' page, removed the text but kept the formating, and wrote the Lily page. Part of the formating that was kept was the list thing at the bottom. I think what must have happened is that I didn't remove the line about "tall and thin" when I was editing from James to Lily. We do know one more thing about Lily, of course. She know that she was about 22 when she died. That doesn't make her tall and thin, though. Steve "god" of the Lexicon who takes out the trash, puts his 11-year-old to bed, argues with his 14-year-old, does the laundry, gets over-tired and grumbles to his longsuffering and very beautiful wife, and is perfectly normal, thank you very much so there From kkearney at students.miami.edu Fri Jan 31 18:31:26 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 18:31:26 -0000 Subject: Thoughts on Apparating Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51264 Not really a theory, but just some thoughts on the subject of apparition. No books on hand, so forgive the lack of specific quotes. It's been brought up on this list several times that wizards often seem to overlook Apparition as an easy method of travel. For example, Dumbledore flies to London in SS/PS, very time-consuming for such an urgent matter. Also, why do so many adult wizards use floo powder? There are other instances, I'm sure, but they aren't coming to mind at this moment. We know one can't apparate on the grounds of Hogwarts. This is generally taken to be an exception to the general wizarding world, but what if this is the common situation? My theory is that there are only a few specific places where one can apparate, areas that are isolated and well-protected from Muggles. Where have we actually seen a wizard Apparate? At the World Cup, it was mentioned that specific areas had to be set up and designated for Apparating. These areas are heavily regulated, including the times one can arrive at each location. In GoF, Ron mentions that Percy apparates downstairs to breakfast each morning. Well, the Weasleys live far from the Muggle town, in a seemingly isolated area (hidden enough to practice flying), so it seems natural that they could have their home designated Apparate-allowed, especially since Mr. Weasley has connections at the MoM. Some people have theorized that JKR simply hadn't thought about apparating much yet when she wrote SS/PS. However, I think the first example of Apparating comes in the very first chapter of SS/PS. When Dumbldore arrives, JKR says something along the lines that it looked as though he appeared from thin air. Sounds like he apparated to me. He appears on the corner of Privet Drive, in the exact same spot that Vernon Dursley first sees McGonagall the cat. McGonagall proceeds to sit on the Dursleys wall and watch that corner, as though she knows exactly where Dumbledore will appear. Seems like a bit of a coincidence for them both to choose that exact spot, even if their eventual destinations were the same. So I think that that specific corner is the only Apparating-allowed area near the Durleys, possibly in all of Surrey. London, being so crowded with Muggles, is not ideal for Apparating. Probably allowed somewhere, but highly regulated. Thus, Dumbledore flies when urgently summoned by the MoM. Any thoughts? -Corinth From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Fri Jan 31 18:39:56 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 18:39:56 -0000 Subject: Lily's height and something about Crookshanks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51265 > Steve "god" of the Lexicon wrote: We do know one more thing about Lily, of course. She know that she > was about 22 when she died. That doesn't make her tall and thin, > though. > That's interesting. If Lily died when she was about 22 that means that the 'Troubles' (with Voldemort) started when she and James (assuming he and Lily were in the same year) were just starting at Hogwarts (11 years earlier). Thinking about James and Lily at Hogwarts had me musing about what (or if) they had any familiars. I wonder if perhaps Crookshanks once belonged to either James or Lily - and perhaps *thats* the reason he immediately starts attacking Scabbers (Wormtail) from the get go. Crookshanks recognized that rat just as Padfoot did. Erica (I'm *so* not worthy ... :D ) From manawydan at ntlworld.com Fri Jan 31 18:21:50 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 18:21:50 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Monty Python Message-ID: <001301c2c955$9f6fc2a0$b64d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 51266 Amy: >Just a note about the humor (or humour) in the series. I think it was on the A & E channel's program "Biography" that JKR was asked about the humor in her books and she mentioned that she was a big Monty Python fan. Well, nothing is more "Pythonish" than using the acronym S.P.E.W. for the house-elf liberation movement! You might also mention the direct M Python reference (the only one I've noticed...) to "Cockroach Cluster"! Very nasty Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From ggershman77 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 18:35:54 2003 From: ggershman77 at yahoo.com (ggershman77 ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 18:35:54 -0000 Subject: House points and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51267 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall " wrote: > Not to mention, totally, completely, radically unfair. ;-) > > -Tom Exactly. As with the rest of the book. That's the ticket. "There is no good and evil, only power, and those too weak to seek it." Greg http://hpprogs.blogspot.com/ From grace701 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 15:55:26 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (GRACE701 ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 15:55:26 -0000 Subject: Characters You Hate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51268 > Leslie wrote: > > > > Well...yeah. Though I'll have to beg no one to send > > me anything nasty after they read this but... > > > > I hate Harry Potter. > > > > I love the books they're positively grand but > > something about the "boy who lived" just gives me a > > headache. > > > > > > "Leslie" Jade wrote: > I was wondering when someone would be brave enough to admit this > first (obviously not me *grin*). But I must agree with Leslie. I do > not like Harry Potter very much, I think he is self-centered, > thoughtless, very very nosey, and overall, not especially interesting > besides his extraordinary circumstances. > ---------- IMO, I think Harry has every right to be self-centered. He spent 10 years of his life living with relatives who didn't and still don't care for him. So in a way it should be all about him. (Unless it is meant that he is self-centered in other terms.) He has to be able to look out for himself. He is nosey, but with every right to be. Anything that has happened in Hogwart's has been directed towards him, or someone close to him. He does back off when things get quiet at Hogwart's, but becomes suspicious when things act up again. Greicy From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Fri Jan 31 18:48:48 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 18:48:48 -0000 Subject: Thoughts on Apparating In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51269 Corinth wrote: > Not really a theory, but just some thoughts on the subject of > apparition. No books on hand, so forgive the lack of specific quotes. > > It's been brought up on this list several times that wizards often > seem to overlook Apparition as an easy method of travel. For example, > Dumbledore flies to London in SS/PS, very time-consuming for such an > urgent matter. Also, why do so many adult wizards use floo powder? > There are other instances, I'm sure, but they aren't coming to mind at > this moment. > > We know one can't apparate on the grounds of Hogwarts. This is > generally taken to be an exception to the general wizarding world, but > what if this is the common situation? My theory is that there are > only a few specific places where one can apparate, areas that are > isolated and well-protected from Muggles. I think that Wizards have very few restrictions about where they can apparate. However, just like any other kind of magic they must be careful not to allow any muggles to witness it. I think the MOM only come into play when there is some sort of abuse or splinching happening. I think that Hogwarts is a 'special case' either to protect the students and/or someone or something else (perhaps it opperates as sort of a sanctuary) I do suspect thought that Harry *has* apparated before. In PS we learn that he escapes Dudley'n Friends bullying by mysteriously finding himself on the roof. I think that he 'instinctually' did apparate. Erica From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Fri Jan 31 18:54:22 2003 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 18:54:22 -0000 Subject: Characters you hate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51270 Amos Diggory (I hate his thinking that life is only competition; moreother he certainly will put Harry into trouble) ans Rita Skeeter (she's an old shrew and she's vulgar). Hmm... that's disturbing: I'm starting considering them as if they were more than characters. If I could use them as punching balls... or use Skeeter to hit Diggory... or vice-versa. I could also use them both to squash wimp Cornelius Fudge or (censored) Pettigrew... Shall I confess that this evening the four of them strangely look like the colleague I had an argument with few days ago..? Iris From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Fri Jan 31 18:55:12 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 13:55:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: Dissin' the Gryffs - Slytherin and the Reader Message-ID: <20030131185512.73570.qmail@web20415.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51271 The question is now coming up. Aren't we supposed to cheer on the Gryffindor team, agonize over Harry's defeats, celebrate with him when he wins? And what is it with those people who cheer the Slytherin team on? Like me. Why do I cheer the Slyths on? It's not from any sense of identification. I think I'm a Gryffindor, when push comes to shove, though I guess a good case could be made for putting me in Slytherin. The current canon Slytherins do not impress me in the least. I can't stand Draco. But the Slytherins are the underdogs. And hopelessly so. JKR seems to want to keep emphasizing that the Gryffindors are underdogs, the Slytherins winning the seven years before, and the Gryffindors not winning the Quidditch Cup till PoA, but the truth is that all we see is Harry winning, except for the one time where he didn't win because of the dementors, which wasn't the miraculous child's fault. If Harry does not naturally and fairly lose a game in OotP, I shall be even more fed up than I am at this point. It's just not good writing, imho. You can't keep up a sense of excitement, of rivalry, with this lame competition, this knowledge that Harry will always cruise to victory over the Slytherin seeker. While there are plenty of laughs still, the Quidditch suplot is becoming for me rapidly more and more boring. I was relieved to see it gone in GoF if that meant no more spectacular Gryffindor victories. It's this resentment of the author's choices that have got me rooting for the Slytherins to the point where I unthinkingly found myself cheering aloud in the theatre during PS/SS to the shock of my fellow movie-goers when Slytherin scored. Or at least I think so. There is also that little matter of a sneaking liking for House Slytherin. In many people, it's a little more than sneaking. And this seems to be one of the issues that upsets people most when it comes to debates about "proper" intrepretations of canon. There are more than a few reasons that some readers develop that sneaking-or-not-so-sneaking liking for Slytherin. 1. Slytherins Are Simply Sexier They aren't, of course, but there's a whole section of the fandom that does seem to believe this to be the case. A fondness for silver blond hair and pale faces may be at the root of many a self-declared Slytherin fan's alleigances. This is not a category I'm poking fun at. Let me point out that the character whom I found rather sexy in GoF is, I think, obviously marked as a Slytherin. And that probably does influence my feelings towards that House. :-) And I'm not sure that JKR is entirely innocent here. I'm sorry but you just do not write characters as having silvery blond hair if you want to stop the audience from crushing on them. Draco's hair is by far the most convincing component of any argument for his eventual redemption, imho. Even if JKR is completely innocent of these intentions, though, the fact is that people find sexiness in the strangest places. And, I think that reaction is quite as valid as if she had intended it in the first place. But hark, what is it Elkins is saying? >After all, it often turns out that other people >are seeing things in the books that I find >rewarding as well, once I'm willing to give them >a try. > >Or not. Sometimes when you try a new food, after >all, it really *does* taste every bit as disgusting >as you thought it would. That happens too -- >especially to me. I'm a pretty picky eater. ;-) Is that C.R.A.B.C.U.S.T.A.R.D. you're talking about, Elkins? Hey, I'll be the first to concede that I seriously doubt JKR sat down and said, "And now I'm going to write a character named Bartemius Crouch Sr. who will be very sexy." But, darnit, I did find him sexy, and I can show you why in the text, and Elkins has gone and showed more reasons for that reaction from the text, reasons that left my face a vivid scarlet. However, I think the Sexy Slytherin question is often a red herring in any debate about Slytherin sympathy. It's often thrown around as an insult. "You only sympathize with the Slytherins because you're an immature and shallow person who wants to have Draco/Snape's babies." There's no shame in finding one of those Slytherins sexy, if I do say so myself, but I don't think that really explains the widespread Slytherin sympathy. 2. Rooting for the Underdog The Slytherins are really the underdogs in canon. Sure, Voldemort is out there taking over the world, and Crouch, who was pretty definitely a Slytherin, was... errr... protecting Wizarding Britain from the greatest evil of modern times, but when we talk Slytherin in terms of rooting for the underdog, we're really talking school here. And the Slytherin students never, ever, get to win. Neither does the Slytherin Head of House. Even their temporary victories are few. As noted above, Slytherin has not won one Quidditch game on-screen. They're derided by the other Houses. They get "dissed" by Dumbledore at the end of PS/SS. Lucius gets the team Nimbus 2001s and Harry outstrips Draco on a Firebolt. Malcom Baddock is hissed when he's sorted into Slytherin. Snape loses his Order of Merlin. It's the Slytherins who suffer most when Harry and Ron throw a firework into one of the cauldrons. Hey, even in PoA, it's a Slytherin who has to be alone and friendless at the Christmas dinner. Life just isn't good for the Slytherins. And whether or not they deserve it, in a lot of people rooting for the underdog kicks in. I loathe Draco. Something about that boy gets under my skin very badly. It's so irrational that I don't trust myself to post in Draco threads lest I come off as a raving lunatic. I have a big affective fallacy to contend with there. I see a lot in Draco of the kids who bullied me as a kid. Beyond that, he is ever so lame. I'm never sure whether he infuriates me or makes me want to yawn. But, sometimes, it just isn't fair that he gets so consistently knocked on by the author. Come on Draco, show some spirit! Let's get the author back! Technically, that's impossible, but I'll root for you anyway. For a little while, until my affective fallacy kicks in again. This championing of the underdog is stronger in some people than others. A lot of people don't understand it in relation to Draco, feeling instead with the morality of the situation. Harry is a better person than Draco, so who cares if the author's against Draco? That's a sensible reaction to the text, and one that if you hold, you may find it very difficult to understand the opposite reaction. I think this is related to but is not exactly the same thing as sympathy for the devil. 3. Sympathy for the Devil "In the end," says Elkins in Part Eight of the Crouch novenna, "Sympathy for the Devil", "I feel sorry for everyone." Scott Northup wrote: >PS A lot of the posts defending Snape (and Draco) >over the past few days have piqued my curiosity. > Snape-defenders: do you stick up for Wormtongue >and other slimy folks in literature in movies? Do >you say to your friends "Grima was a good guy! He >just hung around with the wrong crowd!" Oh most definitely? Did you not know, Scott, that some of us listies practice a private devotion to St. Grima Wormtongue, patron of sycophants? The shrine is in the Garden of Good and Evil. Candles can be purchased at the front desk of the Canon Museum. The reason I don't think that Sympathy for the Devil is exactly the same thing as rooting for the underdog is that you can often be rooting for the underdog without feeling much for the character. Often, the primary feeling in rooting for the underdog is rage against the author, as in my example of Draco. Usually, when JKR deals Draco a bad hand, I'm not feeling sorry for Draco, I'm mad at JKR. Similarly, I don't have any particular emotional attachment to the Slytherin team. I just feel that every dog should have his day. Sympathy for the Devil is part of the whole rooting for the underdog thing, but one really is sympathizing here. Some people, unlike me, feel this a lot with Draco. There's a few places where I do feel it with Draco, one of them in his description after being bounced about by Moody. As cruelly amusing as I found Crouch Jr. there, Draco's, "lying in a heap on the floor with his sleek blond hair all over his now brilliantly pink face. He got to his feet wincing" and "pale eyes.. still watering with pain and humiliation" tugged at my heartstrings. Similarly, the end of PoA is just heartbreaking for many people, empathizing with what Snape is going through. Does JKR mean us to sympathize here? Maybe... Her description of Malfoy, which had my hardened-to-the-charms-of-silver-blond-hair heart bleeding does make me wonder... And, it's my humble opinion that she wants us to feel sorry for Snape there, though I don't know if she envisioned the extent that we often feel sorry on the list. I'm just guessing that she did not mean us to sympathize with Voldemort for being friendless, alone, and a vapour. But Elkins found that rather piteous. Which I found rather amusing. But, then I have a rather soft spot for Aragog complaining about being locked up in the cupboard, and being afraid of the basilisk, and Hagrid refusing to let him go, so who am I to talk? Anyway, sounding like a broken record here, it doesn't matter what JKR intends. If the text evokes sympathy, the text invites sympathy, and here's a major reason for Slytherin support. 4. Bad Move, JKR! I've mentioned this a bit above, but I'll make it very explicit here. Sometimes, what makes people feel for the Slytherins is the feeling that JKR is making bad artistic decisions in portraying the Slytherins. Steve/BBoy wrote: >we must view this not from Slytherin's perspective >or Gryffindor's, but from the perspective of a reader. >We do not ask which method is politically correct, >but which method created the better read, the >better story. > >Clearly the sudden thrilling victory at the >last minute, especially combined with putting one >over on Slytherin, made for a more thriling >story, and had the story end on a very happy >satisfying note for H/R/H and the whole >Gryffindor house. But this is a matter of opinion. I found the ending of PS/SS very, very weak. In fact, there were a number of things about that book that nearly made me not continue with the series. And the dissin' the Slyths episode is up there. It didn't thrill me. It icked me. I felt that Rowling was trying to squeeze out the emotion with a cheap trick, a trick which revealed her as a unrepentant dualist of the worst variety. [ed. I wrote this before I saw Elkins' post, which made me grin. I wonder how many other people really were not taken with PS/SS, and wonder further about all the people I know who stopped with PS/SS. When talking with people whom I know will react negatively to PS/SS, I heretically recommend that they start with PoA.] Pippin wrote: >Children know a moral illustration when they see >one, and are quite happy to see the good triumph >and the bad punished. I have no doubt that JKR did mean that scene as good vs. bad. Slytherin vs. Gryffindor. But I don't care for that sort of dualism. It's cheating. It's refusing to face up to the complexities of real life. Oh, that dissin' the Slyths scene raises my hackles, even beyond the feelings of Rooting for the Underdog and Sympathy for the Devil. "You are making a bloody mistake!" I wanted to yell at JKR. "You have a good set-up and you're ruining it!" I continued with the series because of Severus Snape, who mysteriously wasn't the badguy, wasn't that nice either, and was a Slytherin. Elkins wrote: >I think that the books I've been reading are pretty >darned good, and so far, they've grown more to my >literary tastes with each volume. I have hopes >that this trend will continue. Oh, me too. The annoying dualism and shallowness of the first book seems to be leaving us, whether it was only a trap to catch the unwary, or it's a matter of JKR's artistic vision growing. I suspect it's both. She purposely lulled us into assuming Snape was bad, but, on the other hand, the weak portrayal of Quirrell shows that she has come a long way since the beginning. But while in many ways, things have grown more to our tastes, Slytherin is still a problem. One of those fault-lines we like to talk about. Scott wrote: >I truly believe that if JKR had wanted us to know >that there were a large majority of Slytherins who >weren't jerks, she would have at LEAST introduced us >to one Slytherin who was not a jerk. A hit, a palpable hit! But you know what my response would be? JKR is a fool. Well, not really ;-), but if she doesn't make this Slytherin-Gryffindor thing a lot greyer, I will count it as an artistic failure. That doesn't mean the books are bad. I believe Huckleberry Finn is one of the greatest American novels, and I am really not keen on its ending. (Save us from the inanities of Tom Sawyer and the Phelphes) However, the books are changing, becoming more complex. We had an evil Gryffindor in PoA. We had the "good guys" doing all sorts of terrible things in GoF. We have Snape becoming more and more complex. Perhaps, we'll be seeing a non-jerk Slytherin soon. I hope so. So, Slytherin supporters are often, as accused, not actually basing their support on how Slytherin is portrayed in canon. They support what they hope Slytherin will turn out to be. They would be very disapointed if JKR was to leave Slytherin where it is now. 5. The Wearing of the Silver and Green The truth is that Slytherin is cool. Just that word. Slytherin. Slytherin. Slytherin. I love that word. It does something for me that Hufflepuff, Ravenclaw, and Gryffindor don't. That's subjective. People feel the magic of words in very different ways. The Sugar Quill has an interesting thread on favourite words which utterly shocked me. Many of the posters listed as favourite words some of my least favourite words in the English language. But I know that I'm not completely idiosyncratic here. I know people who have absolutely no sympathy for Slytherin, except that they love that name. And then there's the green and silver. Green and silver are very evocative colours. They're beautiful, in the first place, and aesthetically, I'd pick the Slytherin colours over the other three any day. But think of the associations of green. There's no other colour that is so rich in symbolism. Green is the colour of life (though it has its connections to death), fairyland, growth, envy etc. etc. Well, except for red, that is. Red has quite a few associations as well. As the colour of blood, it stands for both life and death. And, it's a crucial fairyland colour as well. Anger etc. Red and Green are the big colours, represented in the text by Gryffindor and Slytherin, but found over and over again everywhere. Harry's green eyes, Voldemort's red ones. I don't think it's all surprising that a House whose colours are green and silver stirs the blood of many of us. And snakes have their ambiguities as well. The snake has had a bad time of it in Judeo-Christian tradition, to say the least, but there is also much fascination with the snake (and its relatives the sea-serpent and the dragon (not to mention the basilisk) often all brought together under the category "wyrm") as can be seen from Classical, Northern, and Celtic legend and mythology. The ambiguity is there in canon as well. Riddle's a parselmouth, but so is Harry, and while Nagini is evil, there's that boa constrictor friend of Harry's at the zoo. The symbolism of Slytherin is very ambiguous and also alluring, even if the canon Slytherins aren't. 6. The Affective Fallacy "I refuse to believe that the Slytherins are all jerks," said my brother. "Because I damn well know that if I were in the wizarding world, I'd be sorted into Slytherin." He's right too. He's amazingly ambitious. He's cunning, always bending the rules to reach his goals. He understands the loyalty thing, the keeping of strong alliances. And, he can charm most people to get what he wants. He's also a pretty nice seventeen year old. The most heated discussions on the list often involve whether the reader would fit into the wizarding world. Just take a glance at the Religion threads (How would I, as an Orthodox Jew, Evangelical, or Atheist fit into Hogwarts?) and the Class threads (How would I as a member of the working class, or an upper middle classer fit into Hogwarts?). The question here is "How would I as someone who is both cunning and ambitious fit into Hogwarts?" If you see yourself as a Slytherin, you're going to sympathize with the Slytherins, even if JKR doesn't seem entirely crazy about them. 7. "Of coise, you know, this means woir." In discussing HP, P.G. Wodehouse often comes up. Anyone who knows the adventures of Mike and Psmith will see an immediately resemblance to HP. Except, of course, that Psmith was a definite Slytherin... You see, JKR may not care much for the Slytherins, but our culture cares a lot for the charming, the cunning, and the ambitious. Over at Fiction Alley, some ambitious Slytherin types were compiling a list of Slytherins in history and literature some time last year. Did you know that they counted Thomas More as a Slytherin? As in St. Thomas More? As in "I die the King's good servant, but God's first" Thomas More? He was certainly extremely ambitious, ending up as a Chancellor of England. He was cunning. He was charming and witty. And yes, he had principles that he would not break, but so does Snape. To categorize Thomas More as anything but a Slytherin would be to miscategorize him, imho. "Utopia" is quite as Slytherin a book as "The Prince." And then, there's Bugs Bunny. If you want to see a real Slytherin at work, rent a few of the great Warner Brothers cartoons. Not to mention that we're supposed to root for Slytherin Prince Hal in Henry IV: Part I, not Gryffindor Percy Hostpur. Fairy tales and legends are full of tricksters, who climb to power with very below board methods. Jack and the Beanstalk, to name one. This side of the pond, we have Brer Rabbit. Point is, Slytherins outside HP are often our heroes. 8. Canonical Respect for Slytherin (translating from my Spanish edition of CoS: I love having my Spanish editions. Our English HP books are always being read, but I'm the only one who can read Spanish, so I always have access to HP.) "Listen to me, Harry. It happens that you have many of the qualities which Slytherin prized in his carefully handpicked students: his own very rare gift, parseltongue..., inventiveness..., determination..., a certain disdain for the rules." I doubt I am the only person to find Dumbledore's description curiously positive and respectful, even if the text goes on to congratulate Harry for choosing Gryffindor. If Harry the hero has many of the Slytherin qualities, is Slytherin all that bad a thing? Perhaps JKR isn't completely against the Slytherins after all. And that brings us back to Point Four. 9. Dissin' the Gryffs I don't find it very surprising that many self-declared pro-Slytherin fans vehemently dislike many of the Gryffindor characters. In fact, this is another one of the insults that is thrown around quite often in fandom flame wars. "You only dislike Ron because you like Draco and Slytherin, and so you have to tear Ron down to make you feel better." But I wonder how often it's the other way around. People dislike Gryffindor characters, and then start rooting for the Slytherins. I know many people who started being pro-Slytherin out of dislike for Sirius Black. And, if you have unresolved issues with Oliver Wood, as I do, you just might start cheering on Marcus Flint, as I ended up doing. And that's helped on by the fact that we don't know anything about Flint. 10. The Great Unknown We know so little about Slytherin. Our imaginations are free to conceive the house as we wish. And that's very appealing. In conclusion, there are quite a few reasons why so many of us aren't completely set against the Slyths. Some of them are extra-canonical. Some of them are rooted in canon. Some have to do with the dreaded "M" word. But one thing's for sure, the treatment of Slytherin in canon is evidently extremely problematic, not to mention intriguing, for many readers. Eileen, who is considering writing an overview of the portrayal of Slytherin in fanfiction, and how it relates to reader uneasiness with the canon portrayals, but thinks that might be a little too ambitious ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 18:57:26 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 10:57:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Thoughts on Apparating In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030131185726.1281.qmail@web40501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51272 --- "corinthum " wrote: > It's been brought up on this list several times that > wizards often > seem to overlook Apparition as an easy method of > travel. For example, > Dumbledore flies to London in SS/PS, very > time-consuming for such an > urgent matter. I think maybe Dumbledore flies instead of apparates to the MoM because it wouldn't fit the plot as well if he had used a *very* fast mode of transportation. Had he apparated, he could have come back very quickly and Harry wouldn't have gone to find Snape!Quirell!Voldemort. Since he changed his mind and flew back half way there,it gave Harry time to go get the stone. It would have been very disappointing if the book had ended with Dumbledore apparating back almost immediately and saying, "Okay, I'm back. I'll take care of it." And, as far as only being able to apparate to certain locations, I'm sure you can apparate to the MoM. And after typing ALL of that, Dumbledore couldn't have apparated because you can't disaparate from Hogwarts. Maybe he could have gone to Hogsmeade and done it, but not from the school. wrote: Also, why do so many adult wizards use floo powder? I may be wrong, but the only time I remember any adults using Floo Powder, was the Weasleys. The first time was going to Diagon Alley in book two. I'd assume they used it this time because the kids were all going along and Harry had never travelled by Floo Powder. I doubt they'd let the kids use it alone since there could be a problem. The other time was when they went to retrieve Harry from the Dursley's for the QWC. At this point, again, they had some of the kids with them and, I don't think it would have been very good to apparate into the Dursley's living room. Even if that weren't a problem, Harry can't apparrate, so they'd have to use Floo Powder to return to the Burrow anyway. Yet another point. There's an apparating test that you must take. So maybe some witches and wizards can't pass it, or never travel far enough for apparation to be necessary. ~Kathryn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Fri Jan 31 19:10:45 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 14:10:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cynicism and Betrayal in Canon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030131191045.92110.qmail@web20419.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51273 --- "Jim Ferer " wrote: > It's not hard to find speculation here about > Evil!Lupin, > Evil!Dumbledore, Evil!McGonagall, Evil!Sirius, and > so on; who did I > miss? Someone, I'm sure. Evil!Moody. Cindy's been plugging hard for that one a long time. > If JKR ever did write Evil!Dumbledore, etc., it > would be nothing less > than the worst betrayal of readers ever by an > author, and I could > never forgive her for it. Hey, you know. I think I agree with you about Evil!Dumbledore. It'd be like Evil!Gandalf. Unthinkably horrid of JKR. > I don't believe for one minute JKR is doing it. Let > me repeat it: I > don't think there is any chance JKR will betray her > characters or her > readers in that way. > > I only am talking here about main characters that > have been the > students' guardians and protectors. I have no beef > with other > characters being potential bad guys, like Evil!Fudge > for example. I think that the potential problem with this approach is that JKR has already written a terrible betrayal. Peter Pettigrew was one of James Potter's best friends, and his secret keeper. And the fact that this happened in the past makes me feel that we'll see it again somehow. I'm not sure how I feel about this. I'll just keep my fingers crossed and see. Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From dicentra at xmission.com Fri Jan 31 19:13:04 2003 From: dicentra at xmission.com (dicentra63 ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 19:13:04 -0000 Subject: Cynicism and Betrayal in Canon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51274 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David " wrote: > Jim Ferer wrote: > > > It's not hard to find speculation here about Evil!Lupin, > > Evil!Dumbledore, Evil!McGonagall, Evil!Sirius, and so on; who did I > > miss? Someone, I'm sure. > David added: > That would be Ron. Hey, we've managed to "out" just about everyone in the series as Ever So Evil (ESE), including Trevor the Toad. Most of the speculations were made for the pure fun of it, though, using extremely thin canon evidence and tortuous readings. However, Pippin will tell you that she began Evil!Lupin as a lark and discovered that canon really *did* suggest an Evil!Lupin. David again: > it seems to me quite > plausible that *someone* fairly major who is already an established > part of the series will turn out not to have been what they seemed > all along, without damaging the themes JKR is plugging. And if it's going to make for a good story, it's got to be someone you never suspected. Someone who hasn't been marked with suspicion, the way Fudge, Ludo, and Snape have. Or someone whom we formerly thought bad and had his name cleared--Sirius--or someone who already wasn't who we thought he was--Moody. > > My money would be on McGonagall 39470 is Elkins's convincing "outing" of McGonagall, but it's hard to say whether Elkins has her tongue firmly planted in cheek or if she thinks she's onto something. > David, cooking up his evil!Hermione theory Do we have one of those in the archives, folks? ::flips through them:: Nope! Don't believe we do! Godspeed David. May the text be with you. --Dicentra From rbroeker at hotmail.com Fri Jan 31 18:52:54 2003 From: rbroeker at hotmail.com (beccafran ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 18:52:54 -0000 Subject: Draco's grades In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030130035720.009ff720@pop.cox-internet.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51275 from CoS: > "I hope my son will amount to more than a thief or a plunderer, Borgin," said Mr. Malfoy coldly, and Mr. Borgin said quickly, "no offense, sir, no offense meant -" > > "Though if his grades don't pick up," said Mr. Malfoy, more coldly still, "that may indeed be all he is fit for - " Cathy: > This gives me the impression of someone who is not anywhere near the top of his class. bel: > It doesn't give me the impression that Draco is any lower than second at > all. IIRC, they only ever mention Hermione as having better grades. > Granted, that may be because having a "mudblood" beat him stings more than > the others that do, but I don't think so. > > I do agree that it's done to embarrass and shame Draco -- hopefully into > getting better grades. It's a disgrace to the name of Malfoy that he isn't > first in his class, and doubly a disgrace that a "mudblood" is the one > beating him every time. While my father certainly wasn't nasty or > degrading about it , he definitely let me know that getting the > second-best grades in class were not acceptable. I remember bringing home a > report card in high school with 5 As and 1 B. Dad looked at it grimly for a few > seconds, then turned to me and said, "Why a B?" If my dad, who I loved dearly, > could be that way about grades, I can certainly believe that Lucius Malfoy > could be that way, with added malice and coldness. BeccaFran: I agree with Bel: my dad definetely was one to criticize my grades- even an A- could be an A. *However,* this scene says more about Lucius and the relationship between father and son than about Draco's grades, IMO. Lucius clearly has high expectations for his son. He is not happy with Draco's performance in school, as relates to those expectations. Also, he makes no bones about criticizing Draco's performance in front of a shopkeeper. As much as my dad lectured me, he never would have done so in public like this. I don't have my book with me, but I bet the rest of this scene is even more enlightening in this area. BeccaFran From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 19:33:54 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214 ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 19:33:54 -0000 Subject: Dissin' the Gryffs - Slytherin and the Reader In-Reply-To: <20030131185512.73570.qmail@web20415.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51276 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Eileen wrote: > But the Slytherins are the underdogs. And hopelessly > so. JKR seems to want to keep emphasizing that the > Gryffindors are underdogs, the Slytherins winning the > seven years before, and the Gryffindors not winning > the Quidditch Cup till PoA, but the truth is that all > we see is Harry winning, except for the one time where > he didn't win because of the dementors, which wasn't > the miraculous child's fault. Me: I respect your view on Slytherins, I really do, but if JKR wanted us to think that Gryffindors were an underdogs, she convinced me. How did she achive it with me? I guess by showing Snape's unfairness to Gryffindors during the whole PS/SS and by showing McGonagall doing something completely opposite (except getting Harry the broom, of course) > Life just isn't good for the Slytherins. > > And whether or not they deserve it, in a lot of people > rooting for the underdog kicks in. > This championing of the underdog is stronger in some > people than others. A lot of people don't understand > it in relation to Draco, feeling instead with the > morality of the situation. Harry is a better person > than Draco, so who cares if the author's against > Draco? That's a sensible reaction to the text, and one > that if you hold, you may find it very difficult to > understand the opposite reaction. Me: Oh, I understand the opposite reaction, but I like being manipulated by the author (most of the time, anyway) and if she wants me to feel that Draco is a bad guy, I am happy to oblige. > The reason I don't think that Sympathy for the Devil > is exactly the same thing as rooting for the underdog > is that you can often be rooting for the underdog > without feeling much for the character. Often, the > primary feeling in rooting for the underdog is rage > against the author, as in my example of Draco. > Usually, when JKR deals Draco a bad hand, I'm not > feeling sorry for Draco, I'm mad at JKR. Similarly, I > don't have any particular emotional attachment to the > Slytherin team. I just feel that every dog should have > his day. Me: I guess that's what is different in our interpretations of the canon. I am uncapable of rooting for underdog if I do not feel anything for the character (by feeling anything - I mean annything positive :) ) I don't feel that "undeserving dog" should have his day. If this "dog" shows at least some of the redeeming qualities in my eyes, I'll be happy to vote for him. > 4. Bad Move, JKR! > > I've mentioned this a bit above, but I'll make it very > explicit here. Sometimes, what makes people feel for > the Slytherins is the feeling that JKR is making bad > artistic decisions in portraying the Slytherins. Me: Yes,I would love for her to develop Slytherin House more, but right now since I don't like any Slyths (except Snape - whom I like when he is not unfairly picking up on Harry and Co), I don't bother rooting for them. > Oh, me too. The annoying dualism and shallowness of > the first book seems to be leaving us, whether it was > only a trap to catch the unwary, or it's a matter of > JKR's artistic vision growing. I suspect it's both. > She purposely lulled us into assuming Snape was bad, > but, on the other hand, the weak portrayal of Quirrell > shows that she has come a long way since the > beginning. > > But while in many ways, things have grown more to our > tastes, Slytherin is still a problem. One of those > fault-lines we like to talk about. Me: Again, if she wants to show that not everything is black and white (I agree she does a wonderful job with Snape) and is going to show some grey Slytherins, that's wonderful. Since right now I don't see any except Severus, it is not enough for me to root for them yet. Alla From kkearney at students.miami.edu Fri Jan 31 19:35:36 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 19:35:36 -0000 Subject: Thoughts on Apparating In-Reply-To: <20030131185726.1281.qmail@web40501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51277 Kathryn wrote: > I think maybe Dumbledore flies instead of apparates to > the MoM because it wouldn't fit the plot as well if he > had used a *very* fast mode of transportation. Well, yes, of course it fit the plot. The whole point of my post, however, was to come up with a justified reason from the book's point of view, rather than the reader's. A canon-justified explanation rather than an it-had-to-happen-that-way-or-the-book-would-be-boring/ it-was-a-plot-hole/ just-'cause justification. Sure, maybe apparating is extremely difficult and therefore wizards don't use it much. Give me canon and I'll listen. :) Thus far, all I've heard is, "You have to take a test to do it" and "It can be dangerous". Same with driving a car, and I still get caught in rush hour traffic on a daily basis. -Corinth From jodel at aol.com Fri Jan 31 19:36:25 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 14:36:25 EST Subject: Slytherin's winning streak (was; House Points and Dumbledore) Message-ID: <151.1b24447f.2b6c2a39@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51278 Y'know. I wonder if we may not have been handed a clue here. Slytherin had been on a winning streak, taking the House Cup for the past six years. Right up to Harry's arrival at Hogwarts. And probably the Quidditich Cup as well. (Harry was immediately informed that Gryffandor had't won the QC since Charlie was on the team, seven years ago.) Once Charlie Weasley finished school, I don't think the Puff's excellent teamwork, the Claw's individualistic cleverness or the Gryff's heroics would have been a match for the Slyth's focused ruthlessness on the pitch. We've already had it confirmed that winning the Quidditch Cup gives a House a decided advantage towards taking the House Cup as well. All that is needed is to make sure that the points won by the team aren't offset by too many points lost by the rest of the House -- and that members of other Houses don't make up the difference by winning too many additional House points in other areas. Now did Slytherin simply get a particularly pronising batch of first years at that point, and the winning streak has simply followed their careers, or did Slytherin House get some other advantage at that point? Well, we already know who seems to live to strip house points off everyone but the Slytherins. And, while he may perhaps be a demon for detentions, inside the House itself, he rarely strips a point off one of them if he can help it. Could we have just been handed the information of exactly when Snape became head of Slytherin? (May have been on staff as a teacher prior to that, but not as a Head of House.) I think *I'm* going to be watching for any other bits of information as to whether anything much was going on at Hogwarts around, say, 1985 or so over the next few books... For the record, I think that Quidditch-earned House points are awarded on an individual basis to players of BOTH teams, PLUS a set number of bonus points to the House of the winning team. Lee Jordan (and any othe of the Quidditch Comentators) may be either awarded or docked House points for his comentary as well. (And, imho, the winning points in PS/SS should have been awarded the morning after the trio went into the Chamber, with an "explanation forthcomming" announcement.) (Oh. Well. It *was* her first book...) -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From manawydan at ntlworld.com Fri Jan 31 19:40:19 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 19:40:19 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rise of the mudbloods (nasty term...) References: <1043997847.3565.61984.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <003101c2c960$9d89eaa0$b64d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 51279 Jodel: >Mind you, that's the *current* figure, and we have no idea of how rapidly it >reached that percentage. That's an interesting suggestion - I've sometimes wondered idly whether the "mix" between wizard and muggle is changing (and what the implications are of that...) >I have a strong conviction that bonafide, (unantcipated) Muggle-born magical >children were fairly rare in the period before the seclusion. (Halfbloods, on >the other hand, were not uncommon.) For one thing, most Muggles were pretty >well isolated in little rural hamlets until the late 18th and early 19th >centuries and everyone knew pretty well who one's ancestors were. I'm quoting from memory, so i may be wrong, but I think the separation was in the 1670s, at which time I think there was a very low level of urbanisation virtually globally (certainly in Europe). In the UK, people did move from place to place - it wasn't uncommon for someone to live and work in a different village from the one of their birth (though - serendipitously enough - it became slightly less common from the 1670s onwards because of changes in social security legislation) so that it's conceivable that a muggle descendant of mixed ancestors could pop into the gene pool un beknownst to the local wizard families. >and, with about the same degree of frequency, in the cities. These births >were rare enough that the Wizards' Council (or possibly the early MoM by >then) ultimately decided that the danger to the wizarding population as a >whole was great enough that to lose these few Muggle-born children to the >witch hunters was a price they would just simply have to pay for the safety >of seclusion. And whether they were abandoned or not, such small numbers coming into the culture wouldn't have had any particular implications. >It was the loss of the halfbloods, who had always been much more common, >that >brought the wizarding world to the population crisis that it landed in by >the >time they commissioned the charmed quill(s?). During that period, families So am I right in thinking that you think that at the start of the seclusion, the MoM would have forbidden intermarriage? And that that's why there stopped being halfbloods? I also wonder whether the "quill" will make it into the books. It strikes me that if there is a "write down birth" Charm, then surely someone in the Ministry has modified it and has a "write down death" Charm (especially if the MoM has to keep track of its citizens for tax purposes). But a lot of the plot line in the books relies on the MoM not being aware that certain people were dead (Peter Pettigrew, Bertha Jorkins, Crouch Jr). >which could have traced at least some mixed-blood ancestors at the beginning >of the seclusion, gradually stopped thinking about that part of their >bloodline and started regarding themselves as fully pureblooded wizarding >stock. And not altogether without reason. The birthrate during the early And 300 years is not unreasonable for keeping a genealogical trace, if you really need to. Longer and it becomes much more problematical >Meanwhile, outside the wizarding world, not all of the Muggle-born magical >children had been caught and executed by the witch hunters, and their fully >functioning magical genomes had been seeded back into the general Muggle >population, (rather than having found patronage from the "Big House", >trained and absorbed into the wizarding population) further raising the percentage >of magical genes being passed around in those districts. As far as Europe goes, the time of the seclusion was the time when witch hunting pretty much dies out (bit more serendipity there perhaps...) so I think they would have just grown up as "people that funny things happen around" and remained unaware of why that was. >Mind you, Muggle-born magical births have never been common. Even now when >they represent 25% of an average Hogwarts year's intake that only accounts >for some 40 children in all of Great Britain (and whatever else is within >the >quill's range, using the 1000 people at Hogwarts estimate. If you use the >400 >students model it accounts for all of 12-15 magical births per year). But Depending on where you stand in the argument about the numbers of pupils at Hogwarts and whether that's where all the children go. (Personally I go for 800 which is explicitly stated in one of the books). Not significant for the muggle world but if you assume that the 25% muggle born is for _all_ children with the wizard gene then it's highly significant for the WW. >Ofcourse the fanatical pureblood faction can't stand it. Even leaving aside >that purebloods, in their sense of the term, were never numerous enough to >keep the WW going, and still aren't, and probably never will be. There are I think two reason for this. The first one is just a matter of maths. Human nature and attractions being what they are, then there will inevitably be marriages between the pure blooded and mixed ancestry wizards. So that the %age of "pures" will inexorably fall. The second is cultural - every year (we assume) there is an influx at age 11 of 25% of people who are at least as familiar (or more so) with muggle culture than with WW culture - and they stay in contact with that culture at least until the end of their school days and possibly longer. A very much smaller influx of people from different muggle cultures is enough to generate all sorts of social problems, it's fair to assume that wizards are no different. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Fri Jan 31 20:01:45 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 15:01:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Who told James about the Prank? WAS: Re: Harry HAS Two Parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030131200145.89507.qmail@web20415.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51280 Pip wrote: > I don't know whether or not James had the sense to > react to putting > a person's life in direct danger. I do know that > James's best friend > didn't have the sense to *not* put a person's life > in direct danger. > Further, nearly twenty years later he's still > insisting that Snape > deserved to become a moonlight snack. Pip, I just *loved* your polemic. Certain parts have had me giggling at odd times since reading it. >The only > different things > appears to be that a)there are no other marauders > around to stop > Lupin and b) James has learnt about this from > someone other than > Sirius. I'm presenting you with a theory that it is > b), not a) that > was important, and the 'someone' was Lily. Now, that's an interesting take. I guess my first question would be where she learnt this information. If Sirius didn't tell James, would he tell Lily? Or did she observe something that tipped her off? My second question would be what that does with the parallelism between Harry saving Peter's life in the Shrieking Shack and James saving Snape's life in the Shrieking Shack. Dumbledore tells Harry that he's acting as his father would have acted, and I think it's strongly implied that this is connected with James's moral core in rescuing Snape. I'd be a little cautious about upsetting that, myself. But then, it could be both a) and b). Derannimer wrote: > Well, really, when you think about it, who *else* > could it have been? > > Sirius? Obviously not, since James heard from > someone else. Agreed. > Lupin? He wasn't even *in* on it. Unless he really was in on it. Evil!Lupin, you know. > Peter? Oh yes! That's where my money is. > No, I really don't think so. I'm trying to imagine > Sirius telling > him, and I'm not sure that I see why he would. If > Prank (Derannimer > keeps a watchful eye on the gamboling creature down > at the other end > of the beach) was an act of impulse, and *not* a > plan, then I don't > really think he'd tell anyone. Why bother? Which brings us again to the question of how Lily found out. > And if it > *was* a plan, > then why would he tell *Peter?* Peter, who was never > terribly > competant (at least, not that Good Guys knew of). > Peter, who wasn't a > particularly powerful wizard. Peter, who, I strongly > suspect, would > have started *snivelling* about the whole *idea.* Peter, who was one of his best friends and an ally against Snape. I find it much more likely that Sirius would tell Peter than Lily, actually. Of course, there's a third possibility. Lily or Peter were there when Sirius passed the information on to Snape. But, if Lily had heard the information, how would she have known its moral import? She may have passed it on to James, but she would not be thereby demonstrating her moral core, since AFAIK she had no idea about what was up. Peter, on the other hand, would know what was up. And if he went and told James, but left the rescuing to James, that would fit very well with his character. A bit of a coward, our Peter. > And also, > who *cares* if it was Peter that tipped James off? > Where's the Bang > in that? There's been no relationship shown of any > kind between Peter > and Snape; and the relationship between Peter and > James is about > Banged out. (If there is such a thing.) Oh, Derannimer how can you say such a thing? I admit there may be a Bang to Lily saving Snape's life. Wasn't that one of the Mercy theories? But I really, really don't like Snape in Lily's life-debt, since I think such an aspect of the plot would necessarily have something to do with why Snape left the Death Eaters, and I am a very solid Georgian (and not just because George's a red-head). But given that there's things coming up with Peter, and I doubt she's finished with the Prank, I wouldn't write off the idea of the Peter angle yielding a Bang. You want to know what? Don't ask me. I'm always much more adept at talking about what I don't want to see than what I want to see. Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From carmenharms at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 20:02:44 2003 From: carmenharms at yahoo.com (snazzzybird ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 20:02:44 -0000 Subject: Characters You Hate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51281 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: > Okay, my new question of the day (I do this at school every day): Everyone > has strong feelings about certain characters *coughSnapecough*; are there any > characters that you hate for no reason? You just read about them and think > "Geez...I really don't like them!" but aren't really sure why? > Now me: Definitely Rita Skeeter. I found her reprehensible in the first reading of GoF, and more so in every subsequent reading. Whenever I read her parts of the story, they take me out of my absorption and make me a reader again -- impatient to get past her part and into something else. There are characters in the Potterverse whom I love as characters and probably wouldn't like in real life -- Snape comes to mind here -- but Rita is someone I would dislike in real life just as much, possibly more. She strikes me as a troublemaker. She's stirring up trouble just to have something to write. She's preying on celebrities (Harry) to sell product. If Rita were a Muggle, I can see her working for the National Inquirer or one of that ilk. To me she represents the kind of papparazzi who dogged Princess Diana's footsteps, and followed Jackie Kennedy Onassis and her children around, and told Rosanne Barr Arnold, "We've found the child you put up for adoption when you were young and unknown, and we're breaking the story next week." She's a bottom-feeder. IMHO, her animagus should be a *dung* beetle. --Snazzzybird, who loves Snape, likes Trelawney, and wants to cuddle Mrs. Norris From grace701 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 20:03:03 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (GRACE701 ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 20:03:03 -0000 Subject: Why didn't Remus look for Harry? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51282 As I am reading about Sirius in FAQ, a question popped up into my head that I'm hoping someone could answer. Why hasn't Remus shown any effort to look for Harry? (And what I mean is once Harry started Hogwarts, not beforehand.) Doesn't he want to see his deceased bestfriend's son in person after so many years of living away from him? Like Sirius, who went directly to Muggle world on Magnolia Crescent, just blocks from Prive Drive, to see him. Could it have been that Dumbledore asked Remus to stay away until it was time for Harry to know everything, just as he told Harry so in SS? Grace From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 20:16:26 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 20:16:26 -0000 Subject: Accio-proof Items (WAS:Re: House points and Dumbledore) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51283 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Erica " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Scott Northrup" > wrote: > > You only assume that Quirrel actually used a broom > > to catch the key! I don't think it would be a stretch to say he > pointed his > > wand at the big fat silver key, and said "ACCIO" and the key flew > into his > > hand. > > > > That's not too much of a stretch, is it? > > I suspect that objects that are under some kind of enchantment > (flying keys) may not be susceptible to 'Accio' - I mean, it would > make for a very boring Quidditch match, wouldn't it? (Accio Snitch!) > > Erica Oh, thank you, Erica! Of *course* Snitches couldn't be Accioed! I had never even considered the possibility before, but the neccessity of having some things Accio-proof would explain perfectly the fact that none of the Triwizard champions bothered to point their wands and say "Accio Egg!" Annemehr From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 20:21:44 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002 ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 20:21:44 -0000 Subject: Cynicism and Betrayal in Canon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51284 Jim Ferer wrote: > If JKR ever did write Evil!Dumbledore, etc., it would be nothing > less than the worst betrayal of readers ever by an author, and I > could never forgive her for it. Now me: JKR has said "Readers loved to be tricked, but not conned" (see: http://www.readersdigest.co.uk/magazine/Rowling3.htm). IMO, Evil!Dumbledore would be in the "conned" category, and since she herself acknowledges that we readers disliked being conned, I can't see her doing this to us. Personally, I thoroughly enjoy being tricked by JKR. She gets me every time, and then I kick myself for not seeing that she's actually provided the clues to uncover the trick all along. I think her providing us with these clues lets us feel "tricked" rather than "conned." ~Phyllis From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 20:29:57 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 12:29:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Thoughts on Apparating In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030131202957.87251.qmail@web40502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51285 --- "corinthum " wrote: > Kathryn wrote: > > > I think maybe Dumbledore flies instead of > apparates to > > the MoM because it wouldn't fit the plot as well > if he > > had used a *very* fast mode of transportation. > > Well, yes, of course it fit the plot. The whole > point of my post, > however, was to come up with a justified reason from > the book's point > of view, rather than the reader's. A > canon-justified explanation > rather than an > it-had-to-happen-that-way-or-the-book-would-be-boring/ > it-was-a-plot-hole/ just-'cause justification. > Sure, maybe > apparating is extremely difficult and therefore > wizards don't use it > much. Give me canon and I'll listen. :) Thus far, > all I've heard > is, "You have to take a test to do it" and "It can > be dangerous". > Same with driving a car, and I still get caught in > rush hour traffic > on a daily basis. > > -Corinth > You'll notice that I also pointed out that you can't apparate to OR disapparate from Hogwarts. So for Dumbledore to apparate to the MoM he would have needed to go off Hogwarts grounds first. ~Kathryn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 20:44:01 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002 ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 20:44:01 -0000 Subject: Why didn't Remus look for Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51286 Grace wrote: > Why hasn't Remus shown any effort to look for Harry? (And what I > mean is once Harry started Hogwarts, not beforehand.) Now me: I can think of a couple of possibilities: (1) Lupin may have been concerned that he could harm Harry if he was to turn into a werewolf while visiting him. Since "there aren't many wizards who are up to making" the Wolfsbane Potion (Ch. 8, PoA), it's likely that Lupin wasn't drinking the Potion until he started teaching at Hogwarts and was able to have Snape make it for him. (2) Lupin might have actually gone to see Harry, but Harry didn't see him. Sirius didn't intend for Harry to see him on Magnolia Crescent - perhaps Lupin was more successful in seeing Harry without being seen himself. Since we hear the story from Harry's perspective, this sighting wouldn't have been mentioned. (3) In PoA, it's not until Harry hears his father's voice during the Patronus training sessions that Lupin reveals that he knew James. So Lupin wasn't very forthcoming about his relationship with James. If Lupin went to visit Harry, presumably he would have had to reveal his relationship with James, and since it's something Lupin was obviously not too keen to do, it could have been the reason why Lupin didn't go to see Harry. ~Phyllis From trondmm-hp4gu at crusaders.no Fri Jan 31 20:33:23 2003 From: trondmm-hp4gu at crusaders.no (Trond Michelsen) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 21:33:23 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily's height In-Reply-To: ; from hp_lexicon@yahoo.com on Fri, Jan 31, 2003 at 06:29:19PM -0000 References: Message-ID: <20030131213323.A24480@crusaders.no> No: HPFGUIDX 51287 On Fri, Jan 31, 2003 at 06:29:19PM -0000, hp_lexicon wrote: > We do know one more thing about Lily, of course. She know that she > was about 22 when she died. That doesn't make her tall and thin, > though. I'm sorry, but do we really know that Lily is the same age as James? I know that with JKR's statement about Snape's age, we can be sure that James was about 22 when he died, but can we say the same about Lily? I don't recall any reliable source that says that Lily and James were in the same year. (I've always been assuming that they were, though. But that doesn't prove much) Offhand, the only thing I can remember about Lily's schooldays is that she was head girl, but there's really nothing to suggest she was this the same year that James was a head boy. -- Trond Michelsen From dicentra at xmission.com Fri Jan 31 21:03:54 2003 From: dicentra at xmission.com (dicentra63 ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 21:03:54 -0000 Subject: Not Slytherin, not Slytherin In-Reply-To: <20030131185512.73570.qmail@web20415.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51288 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Eileen wrote: > > I have no doubt that JKR did mean [the dissin' the Slyths] scene as > good vs. bad. Slytherin vs. Gryffindor. > > But I don't care for that sort of dualism. It's > cheating. It's refusing to face up to the complexities > of real life. Cheating or not, the dualism represented by Slyths vs. Gryffs isn't as simple as "Harry the Gryff is the hero, therefore Gryffs are good, and Draco the Slyth picks on him, therefore Slyths are bad." Slyths aren't the evil ones because they've won the house cup for 7 years running or because Lucius buys them all Nimbus 2001s or because JKR needed some villians and decided to dump on one house to make things easier. When Harry is Sorted, he knows next to nothing about Hogwarts and the WW, yet he pleads with the hat "Not Slytherin, not Slytherin." His desire to not be in Slytherin is powerful enough that the hat puts him in Gryffindor. Why are Harry's feelings so strong this early in the game? Because his contact with Slytherins and what he's heard about them shows him the core value of Salazar Slytherin: bigotry. His first contact with the name Slytherin is in Madame Malkins, when Draco comments that he wants to be in Slytherin, then pops off with a whole slew of bigoted remarks about Muggles and half-bloods and Hagrid. Later, Harry tells Hagrid about his conversation with Draco. JKR, as usual, compresses the retelling--"He told Hagrid about the pale boy in Madame Malkins"--but then she shows us the last line Harry said: "--and he said people from Muggle families shouldn't even be allowed in--" Again, the emphasis on the WW's bigotry problems. Then Hagrid tells Harry that the most evil wizard in recent history was a Slytherin, as were all the other wizards who went bad. His third contact with Slytherin is when Ron tells him that all his family is in Gryffindor, and that he'd hate to be sorted into Slytherin. For some strange reason, Harry likes the Weasleys, even at this point. He can tell that Ron is good people--not at all like Draco. Speaking of the devil, Draco comes into the train compartment. He insults the Weasleys and "riff-raff" and offers to help Harry know the difference between "the wrong sort" and the right sort. Harry's not impressed. Finally, he watches the Sorting Hat place Draco into Slytherin without any deliberation. It's no wonder Harry is desperate to not get into Slytherin at this point. JKR is most definitely biased against House Slytherin, but it's because Salazar Slytherin hates "Mudbloods" and wanted to impose that value system on Hogwarts admissions policy. Good heavens, the man hid a *basilisk* in the castle to wipe out "undesirables" centuries after his death. His heir--Tom Riddle--mounted an enormous campaign to "cleanse" the WW of "the wrong sort." JKR hasn't marked the Slyths as bad just to prop up a shallow dualism--she's setting up the central conflict of the series: Muggle-lovers vs. Muggle-haters. Inclusion vs. Elitism. Acceptance vs. Genocide. Love vs. Bigotry. > > The annoying dualism and shallowness of > the first book seems to be leaving us, whether it was > only a trap to catch the unwary, or it's a matter of > JKR's artistic vision growing. I suspect it's both. I'd have to add that Harry's vision is growing, too. It's natural for an 11-year-old to see the world in black and white. I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt and say that she planned the apparent shallowness of the first book. > if she doesn't make this > Slytherin-Gryffindor thing a lot greyer, I will count > it as an artistic failure. I would like to see more complexity from the Slyths, too, but considering that they represent a value system that JKR finds utterly unacceptable, House Slytherin is going to find itself continually discredited in the series as a means of discrediting bigotry. > And snakes have their ambiguities as well. The snake > has had a bad time of it in Judeo-Christian tradition, > to say the least, but there is also much fascination > with the snake (and its relatives the sea-serpent and > the dragon (not to mention the basilisk) often all > brought together under the category "wyrm") as can be > seen from Classical, Northern, and Celtic legend and > mythology. The snake is a symbol of immortality in many cultures, because it renews itself when it sheds its skin. I've heard speculation that in the Garden of Eden, Satan took on the serpent form because it was actually a symbol of Christ, which is supported by Moses fashioning a bronze serpent and raising it up to cure the people of snake bites. (Here again we have the snake playing the role of good and evil). It's therefore no wonder that Voldemort looks snake-like: he's trying to take on the "immortality" of the snake. > "Listen to me, Harry. You happen to have many > qualities Salazar Slytherin prized in his > hand-picked students: his own rare gift, > Parseltongue -- resourcefuness -- determination -- a > certain disregard for rules." > > I doubt I am the only person to find Dumbledore's > description curiously positive and respectful, even if > the text goes on to congratulate Harry for choosing > Gryffindor. You'll notice that Dumbledore left out bigotry in that laundry list. What sets Harry apart from Tom Riddle is his attitude towards Muggles and Mudbloods. He *chose* to not ally himself with people such as the Malfoys and become overly proud of his own pure blood. I'll admit I was baffled in the extreme when I entered HP fandom and found Slytherin fans. I had seen the Slyths only as representing Voldemort's values, and I couldn't see why people would publicly admit to supporting them. I've since seen why people dig the Slyths, but I'm also noticed that the Slyth fans rather conveniently forget what Salazar Slytherin was all about in the first place. --Dicentra, who is not a Slyth fan--could you tell? From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Fri Jan 31 21:09:06 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 16:09:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Percy the PA (was Crouch's memory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030131210906.14608.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51289 Ahem... Percy is only appointed personal assistant after the QWC and some time before Christmas, which makes a substantial difference in evaluating his duties. I think it would be reasonable to take Crouch's observation that he left Weatherby in charge as showing that he was his personal assistant by the time Tournament started. --- "David " wrote: > Very senior civil servants, particularly those who > are not merely > general administrators but have some sort of > specialist advice role > (e.g. Chief Scientific Advisor) will usually have > *two* assistants. > > One will be a PA as conventionally understood, > typically someone > with extensive secretarial experience and > organisational ability. > That person will take up the burden of the servant > role that Elkins > describes (i.e. to the outside observer being the > most powerful > person in the organisation because they control the > diary!). > > The other will be a junior person who has been > identified as having > potential, and is intended should get a broad range > of experience, > in particular the opportunity to observe the > workings of the upper > reaches. That person will support their boss in > their specialist > role, dealing with, for example more straightforward > issues > (cauldron bottoms anyone?) that still need the > authority of the > head. Drafting memos for signature, for example. > One might deduce > that Percy has shown an aptitude for languages, for > example, though > where his education would have given him opportunity > escapes me. As > a person with an outstanding academic record, he > fits the bill, > though. The cauldron bottom report was before Percy was appointed Crouch's personal assistant, though. If we want to get a taste of what Percy was doing as Crouch's personal assistant while Crouch was still at the office. "and when you've done that, Weatherby, send an owl to Dumbledore confirming the number of Durmstrang students who will be attending the Tournament, Karkoff had just sent word there will be twelve..." "... and then send another owl to Madame Maxime, beause she might want to up the number of students she's bringing, now Karkaroff's made it a round dozen... do that, Weatherby, will you?" "Thank you, Weatherby, and when you have done that, I would like a cup of tea. My wife and son will be arriving shortly, we are attending a concert tonight with Mr. and Mrs. Fudge," "Yes, my son has recently gained twelve O.W.Ls, most satisfactory, yes, thank you, yes, very proud indeed. Now, if you could bring me that memo from the Andorran Minister for Magic, I think I will have time to draft a response..." >From the above, I can't help but conclude that Percy's position was more as Elkins describes it, being a professional servant. He was carting papers in and out, filing stuff, making tea, attending to basic correspondence. Elkins wrote: >It is work that is much easier to perform well if >you are able to convince yourself, at least while >on the clock, that your employer really *is* a >kind of minor deity. Just the job for Percy then. He got to listen to Crouch talking. (I think the above passages support my contention that Crouch did like to talk a lot about himself.) And he must have nearly died and went to heaven everytime Crouch said thank you. Not to mention, that Crouch might actually have drank the tea he made. Elkins wrote: >I have no difficulty believing that Percy would >have been that person for Mr. Crouch. I've always >read a certain degree of amused approval mixed in >with the faint exasperation of Crouch's description >of Percy as a tad over-enthusiastic at times. Me too! In fact, this is one of my favourite Crouch lines. I could see myself in Percy's place. In fact, I was a personal assistant for a political lobbyist the summer I turned eighteen. A job which included making tea, dealing with basic correspondence, filing stuff, making appointments, and turning a bright shade of pink whenever a politician or a journalist spoke to me. And I did think my boss was a minor deity. After Voldemort decides to keep Crouch at home, we know that Percy took over directing the entire Department from Crouch's written instructions. But Percy's just perfect for that job, isn't he? Just like poor Matthew Johnston, who became a national celebrity by filling in on talk radio for his boss, Rahim Jaffer, a Canadian MP. ("You're not Jaffer. You're Jaffer's personal assistant," insisted the caller. It was a lovely little scandal.) Grey Wolf wrote: >Thus, Crouch gets the impression that that >red-haired guy is called Weatherby. He might even >ask if he's related to the Weasleys, to which >Percy would just nod again, but simply wouldn't be >able to utter a word. Thankyou for that priceless mental image, Grey. Derannimer wrote: > Elkins, do you think that Mr. Crouch's inability > to recognize other people's identities has anything > to do with his cronic inability to remember his > assistant's *name?*) Elkins replied: >Yeah, thematically, I do view Crouch's inability >to remember Percy's name in just that light. An interesting thought here. What about in the "Yule Ball" chapter when Percy calls Winky "Blinky?" A harbringer of doom? Does Percy recognize other people's identities? Will Percy really pull a Crouch? Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jan 31 21:09:18 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 21:09:18 -0000 Subject: The House Cup and the Tragedy of Slytherin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51290 I would like to address the idea that Slytherin was humiliated by their defeat in the House Championship. First of all, there is nothing -- nada-- humiliating about being defeated because you weren't the best. That's why there are three losers for every winner in the House Championship--to teach that defeat is nothing to be ashamed of. *That* is the warrior ethos, not simply taking your lumps, but realizing there is no shame in taking them. There is shame only in failing those who depend on you. The tragedy of Slytherin or at least of Draco's faction, is that their racist notions prevent them from recognizing superior merit in anyone but purebloods. This is the reason Dumbledore cannot simply "reach out" to them. No amount of reaching out is going to convince Lucius Malfoy that Hermione Granger is simply more capable than Draco. It's only because the Slytherins consider themselves naturally superior to everyone else that they suffer shame in their defeat. If they lose, it must mean that they aren't applying themselves, as Lucius believes, or they were the victims of favoritism, as Draco argues, or they wuz robbed, as some of our listies are arguing here. This, in turn, leads to the moral corruption of Slytherin. Even Harry has trouble seeing what's wrong with cheating if the contest is fixed. So Slytherins see nothing wrong with gaming the system--too bad the Gryffindor Seeker and his pals were off saving the world instead of playing Quidditch, and we're *so* sorry nobody thought of giving them points for that, but it's too late now, mwahahahaha. Maybe Slytherin didn't learn anything from their disgrace. The trouble is, they wouldn't have learned anything by being saved from disgrace either. If anyone had saved them but themselves, they would only have thought it happened because they were so specially worthy of consideration. I tend to think that Dumbledore was hoping they *would* save themselves, but that's just me. The tragedy of the Slytherins is thus the tragedy of Dumbledore, too. His goodness is lost on them. There is nothing Dumbledore can do to cut them a break. Any concession of his will be read as weakness rather than grace. As to the idea that Slytherin had the right to think they had won because all the points were in and they had more of them, well, I have to ask, what do people think that points are awarded for? What is the House Championship supposed to be about? Is it about which House scored more points, or is the Cup supposed to go to the House whose achievements during the term merit the most honor? The latter, I think. The points are made for the honor, not the honor for the points. Each of the Tri-wizard champions is shown to value honor more than victory, and everyone understands immediately that this is the way a champion is supposed to think--well, everybody but Clueless!Ron, I guess. Come to think of it, he's also the one who tells Harry that Slytherin has the championship sewn up. It's possible he doesn't know as much as he thinks he does. Term was certainly not over when Harry and co went through the trap door. That they were entitled to the points and the Gryffindor victory is beyond question-- **Snape shakes McGonagall's hand.** Snape has certainly never hesitated to point out, sometimes at the top of his lungs, when he thinks Potter and his friends are getting away with something. Not that time. It may be unusual to award points at the Leaving Feast, but it can't be a violation of the rules. As we learn from QTTA, wizarding contests do have obscure rules that no one knows about. Barking, but there you are. It doesn't really matter whether the points weren't awarded immediately because what happened in the dungeons was originally supposed to be kept secret, or because nobody knew whether Harry would live or die, or because Dumbledore was busy, or because he thought, haha! let's teach those kids a lesson. It doesn't matter why the banners went up, either. If anyone has a right to complain about them, it's Quirrell's relatives . No black banners for him, poor soul. The lesson was for the whole school. Worthy deeds are worthy of recognition, even if it comes a little late. Slytherin had no reason to feel humiliated, any more than Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff, except that they took their victory for granted and were smug about it. Pippin From melclaros at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 21:27:33 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 21:27:33 -0000 Subject: Dissin' the Gryffs - Slytherin and the Reader In-Reply-To: <20030131185512.73570.qmail@web20415.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51291 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Eileen wrote one of the best posts I've read here since joining! Brava! : > The question is now coming up. Aren't we supposed to > cheer on the Gryffindor team, agonize over Harry's > defeats, celebrate with him when he wins? And what is > it with those people who cheer the Slytherin team on? > Like me. And me....and I'm absolutely sure I'd have been sorted into Ravenclaw (Not Gryffindor, please not Gryffindor!) Things I PARTICULARLY Agree on: > The current canon > Slytherins do not impress me in the least. I can't > stand Draco. > No further elaboration needed. The kid is a twit. If he were mine I'd have belted some sense into him long ago. > > If Harry does not naturally and fairly lose a game in > OotP, I shall be even more fed up than I am at this > point. It's just not good writing, imho. You can't > keep up a sense of excitement, of rivalry, with this > lame competition, this knowledge that Harry will > always cruise to victory over the Slytherin seeker. > While there are plenty of laughs still, the Quidditch > suplot is becoming for me rapidly more and more > boring. I was relieved to see it gone in GoF if that > meant no more spectacular Gryffindor victories. Interesting conversation I had with my (then) 10 year old son after reading GoF together. He: But there was no Quidditch cup! Me: Oh but it would have been the same old thing...Gryffindor against Slytherin and Harry catching the snitch at the last min. He: Oh, they'd have to have something different this time, wouldn't they? Me: (to myself) one can only hope, son. > > And I'm not sure that JKR is entirely innocent here. > I'm sorry but you just do not write characters as > having silvery blond hair ... Or silky, dark voices and sweeping black robes for that matter, eh? > And the Slytherin students never, ever, get to win. > Neither does the Slytherin Head of House. Even their > temporary victories are few. As noted above, Slytherin > has not won one Quidditch game on-screen. They're > derided by the other Houses. They get "dissed" by > Dumbledore at the end of PS/SS. Lucius gets the team > Nimbus 2001s and Harry outstrips Draco on a Firebolt. > Malcom Baddock is hissed when he's sorted into > Slytherin. Snape loses his Order of Merlin. It's the > Slytherins who suffer most when Harry and Ron throw a > firework into one of the cauldrons. Hey, even in PoA, > it's a Slytherin who has to be alone and friendless at > the Christmas dinner. > > Similarly, the end of PoA is just heartbreaking for > many people, empathizing with what Snape is going > through. And this situation is FOSTERED by the Headmaster (not to start the Leaving Feast debate ALL OVER again...) I really do have that fantasy of standing behind Snape and prodding him into demanding DD listen to him JUST ONCE! "Severus, either stand up for yourself here and now, or put us all out of our misery and explain why you take this year after year!" > > 4. Bad Move, JKR! > > I've mentioned this a bit above, but I'll make it very > explicit here. Sometimes, what makes people feel for > the Slytherins is the feeling that JKR is making bad > artistic decisions in portraying the Slytherins. Alhough, to be fair (if that is the right word here) she does this across the board. With very few exceptions her characters are one- dimensional. HARRY is one dimensional and Draco struggles to manage even that. For her to manage a fully developed human Slytherin would be a major undertaking. Unless one of the trio starts dating a Slyth we are unlikely to see any real characters come out of any of the other three houses. . > > But this is a matter of opinion. I found the ending > of PS/SS very, very weak. > I felt that Rowling was trying to squeeze out the > emotion with a cheap trick, a trick which revealed her > as a unrepentant dualist of the worst variety. > > I continued with the series because of Severus Snape, > who mysteriously wasn't the badguy, wasn't that nice > either, and was a Slytherin. I have to do it...just this once: ME TOO! This remains true. I can honestly say right now I care less about what happened to Harry on Oct 31 than what Severus Snape had to do with it. As far as I'm concerned HP was a bystander...ok a bysitter. I care less what happens to Harry in OoP than finding out what Severus Snape was sent to do at the end of GoF. I'm going to try, really try to read the book cover to cover, but I can already see myself flipping through to find out "what's Snape up to?" > Scott wrote: > >I truly believe that if JKR had wanted us to know > >that there were a large majority of Slytherins who > >weren't jerks, she would have at LEAST introduced us > >to one Slytherin who was not a jerk. > > A hit, a palpable hit! > > But you know what my response would be? JKR is a fool. There is still hope...who knows, we may still find out Sirius Black was a Slyth. (Ducking for cover) > And then, there's Bugs Bunny. If you want to see a > real Slytherin at work, rent a few of the great Warner > Brothers cartoons. ROFL! True! So very true! Although, Wile E Coyote strikes me as more JKR's idea of a Slytherin. Albus Dumbledore's as well. > > 10. The Great Unknown > > We know so little about Slytherin. Our imaginations > are free to conceive the house as we wish. And that's > very appealing. Amen! Melpomene...not a Slytherin dammit. From lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com Fri Jan 31 21:29:13 2003 From: lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com (lindseyharrisst ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 21:29:13 -0000 Subject: A Quick (well ... kinda) Snape Thought In-Reply-To: <20030131175106.47043.qmail@web21008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51292 I have always admired Snape more for what he has done that is positive precisely BECAUSE it does not come naturally. His behaviour that demonstrates courage, like becoming a spy or accepting and bowing to knowledgable and moral authority like DD, is a great act of self control and proves JKs point about one being master of one's own fate (c.f "it's our choices who make us what we are Harry"). He is one of the books success stories. If he were nice by nature then he would not have had any real choices to make - in that a particular answer or path would always have been obvious to him. In that way it could be argued that a naturally kind person giving someone a gift is less "good" than a naturally unkind person overcoming their impulses to destroy it. Snape is the kind of man many fail to understand because he would save your life but would never smile at you because the latter is not an important enough thing for him to break his habits for. Yes he's petty, holds grudges, has unalterable first impressions of people and no patience but that does n't diminish him, it gives greater value to his good deeds! Snapesangel, who (as the moniker suggests) has taken a vow to devote her life to the spiritual vindication of her one true love).*ick* From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Fri Jan 31 21:33:59 2003 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 21:33:59 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and respect References: <8EC25F48-3526-11D7-A7B3-000393681E04@lulu.com> Message-ID: <3E3AEBC7.2000703@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51293 Michael Broadwater wrote: > >>>Are you insinuating that Snape is psychic? He didn't know that >>>Hermione had committed the first two of those three crimes. >> >>Didn't he? When he confiscated the book from Harry, he saw this >>famous blue fire, speciality of Hermione. I think he put two and two >>together. > > > Nothing in canon shows that he did. This would go a long way towards explaining his treatment of Hermione. > The burden of proof is yours. > And, if we're going to go on what we "think" happened, then I feel that > out of the 1000 supposed students at Hogwarts, Hermione is not the only > one who can create fire, giving a much larger pool of suspects. Not really. Only Gryffindor would dare to attack a teacher :-) so that's down to 200 already. > It's a > huge leap to go from "Hermione can create flame" to "Hermione set me on > fire even though she was sitting in another part of the stadium and I > never saw who did it." "Who are the best friends of Harry? Where have I seen exactly this kind of flame recently?" Does not sound like such a huge leap to me. > > >> When Hermione was in the hospital wing, it's quite probable >>that Madame Pomfrey sought his opinion, or at least mentioned the >>incident in the teachers room. > > > Which incident and hospital visit was that? And why would Pomfrey seek > Snapes opinion on anything? When Hermione's turned into a cat. Even if Pomfrey runs her hospital as a mafia doctor (would make a lot of sense, actually. She'd want children to seek medical help whatever they have done, without weighting the urgency against possibility of punishment), she could berate him for being so careless in Potions class? Or just ask him since when second years brew Polyjuice. >> He might be a right bastard, but he is >>not stupid. >> > > Very true, and I never said that he was. However, you are presuming > that Snape is in possession of information that we are never shown that > he has. If he did "know" that Hermione had stolen from him, he would > have punished her with at least detention and loss of house points. He > would do the same if he had found out that she had set him on fire. > Snape has never shown an unwillingness to punish students. But even if he was sure it's Hermione's fault, he has no way of proving either of the cases. Irene From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 21:34:59 2003 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 13:34:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Lily's Height Message-ID: <20030131213459.77939.qmail@web40302.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51294 I've always had the impression that Lily was short, and I think I got that from this picture, drawn by JKR herself: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/lst click on the second folder, called "Harry Potter and Me". Click on the Mirror of Erised picture. This probably doesn't count as canon, just like interviews may or may not count as canon, but to me it shows that JKR envisioned Lily as not very tall. This goes along with Elkin's theory that Harry is more like his mother than his father. Yeah, he got his dad's hair, but he got his mum's height. Just thought I'd throw that out there. ~Lilac, who has a few filks in the works, but her muse is on vacation in Majorca or something, so the creative process is taking a lot longer than expected... ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Professor, can you show me that blocking thing again?" Lockhart cuffed Harry merrily on the shoulder. "Just do what I did, Harry!" "What, drop my wand?" --Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Fri Jan 31 21:42:22 2003 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 21:42:22 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Characters you hate References: Message-ID: <3E3AEDBE.7050301@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51295 iris_ft wrote: > Amos Diggory (I hate his thinking that life is only competition; > moreother he certainly will put Harry into trouble) ans Rita Skeeter > (she's an old shrew and she's vulgar). Yes, I can's stand Diggory too, and I expect him to bring trouble. Rita goes without saying, that's what JKR meant us to feel. More interesting is when people hate (or just dislike) characters she wants us to like. For me that would be first of all Dobby (I hate him with passion). Then Hagrid - I don't like him at all. I'm not crazy about Arthur Weasley either. I do not dislike him, just don't like him nearly as much as JKR had obviously intended. Irene From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Fri Jan 31 21:48:50 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 16:48:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Characters you hate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030131214850.42584.qmail@web20414.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51296 The character whom I can not stand to read is Moaning Myrtle. I cringe every time she makes an appearance. Diving into toilets, watching the prefects in the bath... Please, I have a weak stomach. Draco Malfoy is sometimes painful to read as well. I wouldn't half mind if JKR were to cut out those predictable confrontations with Draco. And, then I have that animus against Mrs. Crouch. :-) Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Fri Jan 31 22:04:33 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 17:04:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: The Train Stomp vs. Dissin' The Slyths WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: House points and Dumbledore, Authorial Intent, and A Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030131220433.28085.qmail@web20413.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51297 --- "ssk7882 " asked: >Did the scene on the train at the end of GoF have >the same emotional effect on you as the point award scene at the end of PS/SS? If not, then why >not? What are the differences in how these two >scenes are presented to the reader? How do we >interpret those differences in light of the motion >of the series as a whole? Dissin' the Slyths promoted a reaction of annoyance at JKR. The Train Stomp, on the other hand, was intriguing. To start with, I don't hold a majority opinon when it comes to either scene. I'm not in favour of dissin' or stomping on the Slytherins. But whereas I felt that JKR was fine with dissin' the Slyths, the Train Stomp seemed to be much more ambiguously presented. It is difficult for me, after reading an entire book which explores the ways in which the good guys are less than good, to read the Train Stomp without a certain degree of apprehension. I don't think the Train Stomp makes Ron, Harry, Hermione, Fred, or George evil, but it is very troubling. Is it indicative of things to come? My reaction was, "Oh no, where is this going? Are our characters going to be tarnished?" Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Fri Jan 31 22:10:22 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 22:10:22 -0000 Subject: Accio-proof Items (WAS:Re: House points and Dumbledore) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51298 Annemehr wrote: > Of *course* Snitches couldn't be Accioed! > I had never even considered the possibility before, but the neccessity > of having some things Accio-proof would explain perfectly the fact > that none of the Triwizard champions bothered to point their wands and > say "Accio Egg!" > > Annemehr There are two canon problems with this. The first one is that we know of ways to stop people from aparating, but there is no canon whatsoever to make us think that there is such thing as an anti-accioing charms. It's not a yellow flag, since there is nothing against it either, but I for one think it is higly unlikely - that sort of spell would be too specific for be of any use. After all, you could probably use half a dozen other spells that are more or less similar (like repelling chars repelling the object towards you) by simply wishing it so - the conection between intent and end result of the spells has been widely discused and accepted. The second point is that we *do* know that accio charm wouldn't have worked particularly well (if at all) during the first challenge. 1) Because the dragon was sitting on the eggs, so there is no place for the egg to leave. 2) Visual contact or familiarity seems to ba a must for the spell and 3) The dragon hide absorbs magic and makes it null, so any spell thrown towards the egg would be deflected or nullified by the dragon itself before it could affect the egg. The solution is, of course, to distract the dragon away from the eggs, which requires you to use magic constantly (or some other form of distraction, as in Harry's case), and by the time the plan has actually worked you've got so many spells in the air to get the dragon out of the way that you are better off making a rush and grab approach. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From skelkins at attbi.com Fri Jan 31 22:19:38 2003 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 22:19:38 -0000 Subject: Lily's Height/Harry Has TWO Parents Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51299 Lilac found evidence for Lily being short! (Since there's an absence of any textual evidence at *all* for Lily's height, even *I,* Enemy of Authorial Hegemony Extraordinaire, am willing to accept JKR's drawings as Good Enough For Now ). She also wrote: > This goes along with Elkin's theory that Harry is more like his > mother than his father. Yeah, he got his dad's hair, but he got > his mum's height. Oh, dear. Thank you, Lilac, but although my inner Lockhart is going to be absolutely *furious* with me for admitting this, it was actually Pip's theory, not mine. I only really *wish* that I'd written that post. About which, just a few additional thoughts to add to Pip's, which I hope might save me from just mouthing 'me toos' like some stupefied Imperius victim. Pip wrote: > Subtle indications suggest that Lily may have been the more > dominant partner. Hagrid and McGonagall both refer to Lily and > James as - well, as 'Lily and James'. [Ch 1 and Ch 4 in PS/SS]. In > the UK people tend to put the male name *first* in a partnership > (James and Lily) *unless* the female name is the person they > naturally think of first. There's also the fact that the text strongly suggests that Lily was the one who cast the Fidelius Charm. The only people who knew about the Secret Keeper switch seem to have been Lily, James and Sirius. JKR went out of her way to establish that Lily's wand was particularly suited to Charm work. I think that this combination of factors does serve to imply that Lily was the one to cast the Fidelius, which given that she was only 21 or so at the time, and given that even Flitwick describes the spell as "immensely complex," does suggest to my mind that she was one seriously formidable witch. > Harry is not like his father in an extremely important way. The > Marauder's map [PoA] suggests strongly that its inventors made > mischief for the fun of it. Its codewords are 'I solemnly swear I > am up to no good', and 'mischief managed'. When Snape tries to > break its secrets, it insults him. It's also really hard for me to imagine Harry enjoying programming a magical artifact with quite the same *sort* of insults that we see the Map deliver. It's really not his style at all. He's quite skilled with the verbal zingers, Harry is, but he rarely initiates verbal battle, and his style of put-down is rather different. It tends to be more dismissive than straightforward, and more reactive than active. Not that this is so enormous a difference, mind you. But it does speak to a difference in personality and verbal style between father and son. > Harry really isn't his father's sort of prankster. He plays games > (duelling with fake wands with Ron in GoF), but any practical jokes > usually have a serious purpose behind them. The firework in the > cauldron in CoS [Ch.11, p140 UK paperback] is to create a > diversion, not just to enjoy the chaos. Harry isn't much of a prankster at all, actually, is he? He appreciates pranks a good deal when *others* play them, but do we *ever* see him planning one himself? When it comes to pranks, it seems to me that Harry is always playing the role of appreciative audience, never of performer. And finally. . . . > James isn't real. He's a character in a book. You don't *need* to > feel sorry for him. Careful, Pip! The meta-thinking bunny might hear you! I do disagree on the subject of Lily's role in the Prank, though. But I think that's another post. -- Elkins (who thinks it quite possible that James really *might* have "strutted" from time to time, but is willing to withhold judgement on that until either canon confirms or denies it, or Book Seven comes to an end) From srsiriusblack at aol.com Fri Jan 31 22:39:50 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 17:39:50 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quirrel dead? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51300 In a message dated 31/01/2003 08:57:34 Eastern Standard Time, christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com writes: > Do you trust Voldie's word?" > > Me: Voldie has every reason to lie here. If he abandoned Quirrell, it > might cause the DEs to have doubts about their allegiance. > Chris > Good point. He makes a show of bestowing the silver arm to Wormtail as if he is showing some kind of mercy/love/concern in front of the DEs- yet before they arrive he allows Wormtail to writhe in pain bleeding to death on the ground.... If he had said, 'I left this servant to die' the DEs might just think that Voldie would leave them to die as well... that they are expendable. So maybe Quirrell is alive... The sad part is that he was a frightened and a bit dodgy to begin with, so he would have to be in St. Mungos, wouldn't he? I dare say he wouldn't have the capacity to handle the course of events after his possession. -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 22:44:21 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 22:44:21 -0000 Subject: Snape and respect In-Reply-To: <8EC25F48-3526-11D7-A7B3-000393681E04@lulu.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51301 Michael Broadwater wrote: It's a huge leap to go from "Hermione can create flame" to "Hermione set me on fire even though she was sitting in another part of the stadium and I never saw who did it." I reply: Sure, it's a great leap, if Snape's an unobservant idiot. How do we know that Snape *doesn't* know? After all, she was under the seats, but somehow Quirrell was aware that it was her. If Quirrell was aware, I wouldn't say that's it's any stretch that Snape could have figured it out. And *besides,* no matter how much students dislike Snape, there are few who will openly defy him - and HHR are pretty much the only ones that come to mind. And out of those three, Hermione's really the only one to point the finger at, since Harry was playing, and Ron's skills are mediocre, from what we know. -Tom From susannahlm at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 22:49:08 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 22:49:08 -0000 Subject: Not Slytherin, not Slytherin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51302 Dicentra wrote: Slyths aren't the evil ones because they've won the house cup for 7 years running or because Lucius buys them all Nimbus 2001s or because JKR needed some villains and decided to dump on one house to make things easier.JKR is most definitely biased against House Slytherin, but it's because Salazar Slytherin hates "Mudbloods" and wanted to impose that value system on Hogwarts admissions policy. Good heavens, the man hid a *basilisk* in the castle to wipe out "undesirables" centuries after his death. His heir--Tom Riddle-- mounted an enormous campaign to "cleanse" the WW of "the wrong sort." JKR hasn't marked the Slyths as bad just to prop up a shallow dualism--she's setting up the central conflict of the series: Muggle-lovers vs. Muggle-haters. Inclusion vs. Elitism. Acceptance vs. Genocide. Love vs. Bigotry. Now me: Yes, and that's exactly the problem I have with her portrayal of the Slytherins. The Sorting Hat does not put the biased in Slytherin; it puts the *ambitious* in Slytherin. Ambition is, canonically, the standard the Hat uses to Sort the Slytherins. So why is it that all the ambitious just happen to also be all the bigoted? Why wouldn't there be studious bigots, or brave bigots, or hard- working bigots? Why is there *such* a one-to-one correspondence between ambition and evil in the books? And between ambition and bigotry? *Why* do all the bigots get put in Slytherin? Yes, Salazar Slytherin himself was a bigot, but that is not the standard that the Hat uses to pick the Slytherins, so that alone doesn't seem to explain it. This is one of the biggest problems I have with the story: the conflation of the school rivalries and the larger struggle. *Why* is it that all the Bad Guys are coming out of *one House in a boarding school?* The one house, moreover, that Harry most wants to beat at Quidditch? I don't know; usually I enjoy the way the genres in the books interact, but the Boarding School/ Fight Against Evil concurrences I find problematic. The Gryff/Slyth rivalries tend to reduce and *shrink* the broader conflict, for me. Derannimer (who loves Snape) From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Jan 31 22:50:07 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 16:50:07 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] In defense of Harry (was Re: Characters You Hate) References: Message-ID: <005101c2c97b$1b1c11e0$049dcdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 51303 Leslie wrote: > > I hate Harry Potter. >Jade wrote: > I was wondering when someone would be brave enough to admit this > first (obviously not me *grin*). But I must agree with Leslie. I do > not like Harry Potter very much, I think he is self-centered, > thoughtless, very very nosey, and overall, not especially interesting > besides his extraordinary circumstances. I find it almost amusing that there are fans of HP who don't actually like Harry. I really don't think I could read the books if I didn't like him. That said, is he really all that self centered? He is often the center of attention, yes. But is he trying to make everything revolve around him? I think not. First of all, obviously the books *do* revolve around him, they are, after all, *Harry Potter* and the . . .. But he doesn't sit around thinking everyone should give him attention. From the first day of class when people were whispering about him everywhere, he wished they wouldn't. Then there's Lockhart making a spectacle of him in class. Harry hated it. Colin following him around embarassing him by taking pictures. Yet he was never as rough to Colin as I would've been. Any time he's made the center of attention in classes, he's embarassed. To me the only reason anyone could see Harry as self centered is because he is the center of the books and the books come from his point of view. If you were to go inside anyone's mind, I'm sure things would seem self centered there as well. Now, is Harry really thoughtless? Does he really think only of himself? He cringes every time anything to do with money comes up around the Weasleys. He would gladly share his gold with them, if they'd have it. He tried to give Mrs. Weasley his bag of gold galleons in GoF. Before he tried Fred & George (who were a last resort). When Ron was insisting Dumbledore must've given Harry the Firebolt, since he'd given him the Invisibility Cloak, Harry explained it away by saying he was only passing the cloak on, not really giving it to him. That Dumbledore wouldn't have spent that kind of money on him. He willingly let Ron carry his Firebolt upstairs to put it away when he got it back, most kids that age wouldn't want anyone else near it. Not to mention how it was passed around the common room. Plus all the time Ron spent riding the Firebolt while Harry walked around the edge of the field. Thoughtless? I think not. Is he nosey? Really? There's nosey, and then there's curious. It's all in the way you look at things. Curiosity stems from a mind yearning to learn about a new world. I wish my students had more curiosity. For anything. As for not being especially interesting (other than being "the boy who lived"), is he supposed to be? I think we're supposed to feel that he's just a little boy. Just a normal teenager who has extraordinary circumstances surrounding him. Well, enough said. :) Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eschaafin at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 21:39:04 2003 From: eschaafin at yahoo.com (Sophie ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 21:39:04 -0000 Subject: Thoughts on Apparating In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51304 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Erica " wrote: > I do suspect thought that Harry *has* apparated before. In PS we > learn that he escapes Dudley'n Friends bullying by mysteriously > finding himself on the roof. I think that he 'instinctually' did > apparate. > > Erica I had never thought of him apparating before. It's a _really_interesting idea. I always pictured in my head tht Harry used spiderman-like powers to climb up the wall, or just his own volition to propel him into semi- flight. However, this doesn't make any sense, with with we know about the wizard world, and apparating is a far better explaination. But wouldn't that have been caught by MOM officials? Perhaps it actually was, and the Durselys were alerted or someone else intervened to save Harry. Are there any other places in the books where it is alluded that Harry escapes a tight situation and is unaware how he did it? Sophie From susannahlm at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 23:22:45 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 23:22:45 -0000 Subject: The House Cup and the Tragedy of Slytherin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51305 Pippin: I would like to address the idea that Slytherin was humiliated by their defeat in the House Championship. First of all, there is nothing -- nada-- humiliating about being defeated because you weren't the best. Me: No, there isn't. But there is something humiliating in being fooled into thinking you've won, and then being told "Ha-Ha! You didn't!" *in public.* Especially when you're only eleven years old. Pippin: The tragedy of Slytherin or at least of Draco's faction, is that their racist notions prevent them from recognizing superior merit in anyone but purebloods. This is the reason Dumbledore cannot simply "reach out" to them. No amount of reaching out is going to convince Lucius Malfoy that Hermione Granger is simply more capable than Draco. Me: No, nothing is ever going to convince Lucius Malfoy. But we aren't talking about Lucius. We're talking about eleven-year old kids who have grown up with their parents filling them full of poison, and nothing and nobody around to contradict that. What are they *supposed* to believe, when this is all they've ever heard? Do you *really* think that an eleven year old has enough innate moral discernment to recognize that everything their parents have ever told them is evil? Would *you* have had that discernment? Would I? The Slytherin kids--and they are *kids,* remember--need Hogwarts more than anyone else there. They need Dumbledore more than anyone else there. Which is why I have such a big problem with him pulling a stunt like this. Pippin: Even Harry has trouble seeing what's wrong with cheating if the contest is fixed. So Slytherins see nothing wrong with gaming the system--too bad the Gryffindor Seeker and his pals were off saving the world instead of playing Quidditch, and we're *so* sorry nobody thought of giving them points for that, but it's too late now, mwahahahaha. Me: What about the *Ravenclaws?* If the whole school knew the story by the time Harry wakes up, might not the whole school know the story during the game? So if the Claws know that the Gryff seeker is in the hospital because he was saving the world, why don't they just *ask to postpone the game?* They were the ones playing Gryffindor. I fail to see how it is the Slytherin's responsibility to ask for the game to be postponed on behalf of the Ravenclaws. The Slyth's didn't "game the system." They just sat back and let the thing fall into their laps--they were totally passive. I mean, honestly, what do you think they did *wrong?* What were they mwahahahaha-ing *about,* precisely? Pippin: Maybe Slytherin didn't learn anything from their disgrace. The trouble is, they wouldn't have learned anything by being saved from disgrace either. If anyone had saved them but themselves, they would only have thought it happened because they were so specially worthy of consideration. I tend to think that Dumbledore was hoping they *would* save themselves, but that's just me. The tragedy of the Slytherins is thus the tragedy of Dumbledore, too. His goodness is lost on them. There is nothing Dumbledore can do to cut them a break. Any concession of his will be read as weakness rather than grace. Me: What concession? How do you *know* they will read it as weakness? (Derannimer starts screaming.) WHY ARE YOU ASSUMING THAT ELEVEN YEAR OLD *KIDS* ARE IRREDEEMABLE!? Pippin: As to the idea that Slytherin had the right to think they had won because all the points were in and they had more of them, well, I have to ask, what do people think that points are awarded for? Me: Err. . . Well, it doesn't really matter what the points are *awarded* for. The *Cup* is rewarded on the basis of the *points.* If all the points are in, and they have won, then they have won. And at any rate, I imagine that they would have thought that they had won when they walked into the Great Hall and saw it all done up in green and silver, yes? Pippin: The lesson was for the whole school. Worthy deeds are worthy of recognition, even if it comes a little late. Slytherin had no reason to feel humiliated, any more than Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff, except that they took their victory for granted and were smug about it. Me: The lesson that "worthy deeds are ready of recognition" could have been taught more clearly if it had been taught without the corrolary effect of deliberately humiliating the Slytherins. And *again,* why wouldn't they take their victory for granted? The house colors were on the walls. They took their victory for granted because Dumbledore *tricked them into it.* I think, btw, that he probably did it as a nice treat for the Gryffs, and also to be dramatic about it. I don't think he had any really malicious motivations. But I do think that it was *exceedingly* ill-thought-out, and *not* a particularly classy thing to do. It was *tacky.* Derannimer (who seems to be spending a lot of time defending the Slyths, and especially for someone who isn't a Slyth fan) From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Fri Jan 31 23:31:23 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 23:31:23 -0000 Subject: Them evil characters (was Cynicism and Betrayal) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51306 Dicey wrote: > 39470 is Elkins's convincing "outing" of McGonagall, but it's hard to > say whether Elkins has her tongue firmly planted in cheek or if she > thinks she's onto something. I don't really have anything to add to that post, but, since today seems to be the day of sharing initial PS impressions, I was suspicious of her from the start. Considering that at the time I had no idea the book even *had* concealed villains, or that it was part of a series, that was a bit unusual for me. > > > David, cooking up his evil!Hermione theory > > Do we have one of those in the archives, folks? ::flips through > them:: Nope! Don't believe we do! I thought not. Now I have a small puzzle here. Logically, I think the extreme case of perversity would be an Evil!Harry theory. Up there with that Christie in which the narrator is the villain (I won't give the title for fear of spoiling). But emotionally - it's OK to be emotional here, isn't it? - I feel that Evil!Hermione would be *more* perverse. To wantonly concoct an anti-Hermione theory would be almost, well, *capricious*. Why, I don't understand. Is it that Evil!Harry is a sort of simple mirror reversal of everything in the values of the books, so it all cancels out on some level? Just call good evil and evil good and you get the desired result with minimal effort? Is it that the text in fact gives us some indications that Evil! Harry is a constant possibility? After all, that is the obvious (if IMO not at all the only) interpretation of the Hat's musings on him. It is my favoured understanding of Snape's treatment of Harry - that as an ex-DE he sees some of his own childhood traits in Harry (as possibly he also did in James) and is moving to suppress them, possibly unwisely but with serious if anxious intent. It is on offer from the Dementors too: join us and you can hear your mother. Of course, that is different from the Evil!anybody theories that posit that the subject has been evil *all along*. But perhaps the vague awareness that Harry could turn to evil in the future makes such a theory have less emotional impact. Hermione, on the other hand, feels really hard to paint as evil, in either the future or the past. Will her willingness to exert emotional blackmail corrupt her entire soul? Implausible. Will her resentment of Fleur blight her life with bitterness forevermore? Unlikely. Will her impatience with those who don't immediately share her high moral standards result in dessicated contempt for all around her? I cannot say. Will she dabble ever more deeply in magical cosmetic surgery, until she has undergone so many difficult and dangerous magical transformations that nobody will recognise the brilliant student who became Head Girl at Hogwarts? I think the world should be told. David From jferer at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 23:32:43 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 23:32:43 -0000 Subject: The Train Stomp vs. Dissin' The Slyths WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: House points In-Reply-To: <20030131220433.28085.qmail@web20413.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51307 Eileen:"It is difficult for me, after reading an entire book which explores the ways in which the good guys are less than good, to read the Train Stomp without a certain degree of apprehension. I don't think the Train Stomp makes Ron, Harry, Hermione, Fred, or George evil, but it is very troubling. Is it indicative of things to come? My reaction was, "Oh no, where is this going? Are our characters going to be tarnished?" Tarnished? After what Draco and his cronies said? No way. They showed admirable restraint. This connects strongly with something that's a real issue for me. We live in a cynical age, which we have created and sustained by holding up people to inhuman standards of behavior which can only be disappointed. As we tear people down because they couldn't reach impossible heights, we get more cynical. Take it down to the scene on the train. I can't imagine 99.99999% of the people on Earth being able to endure that provocation - gloating over the murder of a good person? It's monstrous, and unquestionably "fighting words," (a legally recognized concept of words so provocative a reasonable person can't be expected to endure them). In another age, among (adult) gentlemen, Harry's friends would have visited Draco's friends to demand satisfaction. We don't duel anymore, but do you consider the Trio "tarnished" by giving those vile odious excuses for humanity part of what they deserved? They'd have been tarnished if they hadn't. JKR seems to understand and accept the concept of rough justice, and I'm glad she does. We know that the Trio and Fred and George are not evil people. Jim Ferer From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 23:35:55 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 23:35:55 -0000 Subject: Thoughts on Apparating In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51308 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "corinthum " wrote: > Not really a theory, but just some thoughts on the subject of > apparition. ... > > ..edited... My theory is that there are only a few specific places > where one can apparate, areas that are isolated and well-protected > from Muggles. > > Where have we actually seen a wizard Apparate? > > ...edited... > > London, being so crowded with Muggles, is not ideal for Apparating. > Probably allowed somewhere, but highly regulated. Thus, Dumbledore > flies when urgently summoned by the MoM. > > Any thoughts? > > -Corinth bboy_mn: This is a subject I have given a lot of though to. Primarily wondering what the limits are. You can apparate from London to Devon (the assumed location of the Burrow. Mr. Weasley did it twice) but can you apparate from London to China (5300mi) in one jump? When the suject is first discussed openly in the book, when Percy gets his license to Apparate. Mr. Weasley points out the the Ministry regulates it because it is dangerous, and so dangerous and difficult that many fully qualified wizards and witches don't even bother with it, they prefer to use brooms instead. In an interview, JKR also confirmed that Apparating is difficult and that the farther you go, the more difficult it is. That would imply that there is an average distance beyond which most people can not apparate reliably. So- 1.) It's very difficult and dangerous to do. 2.) Consequently, it is licensed by the Ministry. 3.) There is a general limit to how far you can apparate. I'm sure this varies from wizard to wizard, but overal, there is a typical limit to the distance. I think you can apparate into anywhere, but if you expose the magic world in doing so, you get into serious trouble with the Ministry. I think most witches and wizards who are capable of apparating, just POP directly from their house into a Diagon Alley shop or into the streets of Diagon Alley. I also think the general nature of apparation and portkeys, provides a built-in protection. An apparation spell or a portkey enchantment by it's very nature will not allow you to materialize into a solid rock. If you materialize in a field, it will not allow you to materialize inside one of the cows standing in the field. If you materialize into the kitchen, it will not let you materialize in a way that allows the kitchen table cut you in half. Somewhere I came across a reference that said you have to take the phases of the moon into account when you apparate. I've never been able to find that reference again, so I can't swear that it's not FanFic contamination, but it does help illustrate that the process of apparation is complex. Unless my memory is muddled, I think it took Charlie Weasley two tries to get his Apparating License. For purposes of illustration only, if the limit to apparating is 500km/300mi, then you can apparate from London to Paris or Amsterdam, but you can't apparate from London to Edinburgh or Glasgow, they are just beyond the range in this example. So that would mean you couldn't go from London to Hogwarts/Hogsmeade. That is, you couldn't go in one hop. You could apparate from London to a point just south of Edinburgh (Peebles), then apparate again to Hogwarts. You could apparate to China via Russia, but given the limits of this illustration, it would take 17 or 18 sequentual apparations to do it (London to Beijing). Just a few thoughts that were rolling around in my head. bboy_mn From dicentra at xmission.com Fri Jan 31 23:37:23 2003 From: dicentra at xmission.com (dicentra63 ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 23:37:23 -0000 Subject: Not Slytherin, not Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51309 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "derannimer " wrote: > Dicentra wrote: > > JKR hasn't marked the Slyths as bad just to prop up a shallow > dualism--she's setting up the central conflict of the series: > Muggle-lovers vs. Muggle-haters. Inclusion vs. Elitism. Acceptance > vs. Genocide. Love vs. Bigotry. > Derannimer: > > Yes, and that's exactly the problem I have with her portrayal of the > Slytherins. > > The Sorting Hat does not put the biased in Slytherin; it puts the > *ambitious* in Slytherin. Ambition is, canonically, the standard the > Hat uses to Sort the Slytherins. So why is it that all the ambitious > just happen to also be all the bigoted? In the movie _Ghandi_, after seeing Ghandi's campaign to liberate India, an American told him, "You're an ambitious man." Ghandi's response: "I sincerely hope not." The two men were not using the same definition of "ambition," and Ghandi knew it. The American was using the word to refer to the enormity of Ghandi's goal, but Ghandi was using the definition that appears as the *first* definition in Merriam-Webster's Dictionary: "an ardent desire for rank, fame, or power." The more general definition, "desire to achieve a particular end," is second. We Americans tend to use "ambition" in the second sense, but I believe that Salazar Slytherin preferred the first. Ambition has typically implied self-promotion, getting ahead *of the other guy* (not getting ahead of your former self), making it to the top of the social pyramid, and acquiring power over others. The Sorting Hat points out Slytherin's definition of ambition in its two songs: "Those cunning folk use any means / To achieve their ends." [PS] and "And power-hungry Slytherin / loved those of great ambition." [GoF] If you crave power for power's sake, and you're a wizard, you are going to acquire as much *magical* power as possible, and that means turning to the Dark Arts, the way Tom Riddle did. And if you're aspiring to be on the top of the wizard totem pole, there's no reason to consort with Muggles, because those powerless stiffs can't help you rise to the top. And if you want to be at the top, you have to define a bottom: might as well be the Muggle-born and Muggle-lovers. Why *anyone* would want to associate with or defend Muggles would be beyond you. > > Why wouldn't there be studious bigots, or brave bigots, or hard- > working bigots? We don't know for sure that the bigotry is confined to House Slytherin, nor do we know for sure that all Slytherins are bigots. They are most certainly all pure-blood, but so are the Weasleys, and they aren't bigots. > This is one of the biggest problems I have with the story: the > conflation of the school rivalries and the larger struggle. *Why* is > it that all the Bad Guys are coming out of *one House in a boarding > school?* The one house, moreover, that Harry most wants to beat at > Quidditch? Again, we don't know how bad all Slytherins are. Snape, the head of House Slytherin, is nasty but is turning out to be a rather moral person. And we have the example of Gryffindor (we think) Peter Pettigrew, who is single-handedly responsible both for the murder of Harry's parents and for Voldemort's return (heh, pun intended). Hagrid's statement that all the wizards who went bad were from Slytherin probably reflects common wisdom rather than actual fact. However, I doubt Slytherin came about its negative reputation by accident. If they typically display the "old money" snobbery that we see coming from the Malfoys, it's no wonder. As for why Harry wants to defeat Slytherin at Quidditch, much of it has to do with his dislike for Draco and Snape, and because he perceives them as more likely to resort to dirty pool to win than the other teams. I don't think he sees beating them at Quidditch as a symbolic victory over Evil. > > I don't know; usually I enjoy the way the genres in the books > interact, but the Boarding School/Fight Against Evil concurrences I > find problematic. The Gryff/Slyth rivalries tend to reduce and > *shrink* the broader conflict, for me. > Again, this shrinking might have more to do with Harry than with JKR. His vision of the WW is limited to Hogwarts and the houses--it's easy to see why *he* would conflate the two conflicts. It will be interesting to see to what degree the house rivalries diverge from the real-world conflict in the next three books, if at all. --Dicentra, who sincerely hopes they will From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 23:43:47 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214 ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 23:43:47 -0000 Subject: The Train Stomp vs. Dissin' The Slyths WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: House points In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51310 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer " wrote: > Tarnished? After what Draco and his cronies said? No way. They showed > admirable restraint. Absolutely, when I was reading this scene, I was cheering the Trio and Fred and George almost without reservations. That was not a teacher turning Draco into ferret, Draco and his cronies provoked the Trio and got what they deserved, in my opinion. (Well, maybe walking over them was a little too much). Trio and twins only reacted to provocation. It does not make them evil in my book. > Take it down to the scene on the train. I can't imagine 99.99999% of > the people on Earth being able to endure that provocation - gloating > over the murder of a good person? It's monstrous, and unquestionably > "fighting words," (a legally recognized concept of words so > provocative a reasonable person can't be expected to endure them). I know I would not be able to keep silence, if provoked like that. From skelkins at attbi.com Fri Jan 31 23:45:37 2003 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 23:45:37 -0000 Subject: Who told James about the Prank? WAS: Re: Harry HAS Two Parents In-Reply-To: <20030131200145.89507.qmail@web20415.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51311 Who tipped James off about the Prank? Pip suggests that it might have been Lily. Derannmier agrees: > Well, really, when you think about it, who *else* could it have > been? > > Sirius? Obviously not, since James heard from someone else. > > Lupin? He wasn't even *in* on it. > > Peter? > > *Long pause.* > >Hmmm. Yes. Peter. I'm with Eileen here. My money's on Peter. > No, I really don't think so. I'm trying to imagine Sirius > telling him, and I'm not sure that I see why he would. If > Prank (Derannimer keeps a watchful eye on the gamboling > creature down at the other end of the beach) was an act of > impulse, and *not* a plan, then I don't really think he'd > tell anyone. Why bother? Because he was a thoughtless teenager who hadn't really considered the ramifications? And because he thought it was funny. Same reason that when I was in high school, I ended up having to break into the school gymnasium in the middle of the night to retrieve the *bomb* that a friend of mine had planted to go off in the middle of a student election debate -- somehow not realizing when he'd done this that somebody could really get *hurt.* ("But it's not going to really EXPLODE explode. It's just going to...") Because sometimes even ordinarily intelligent people can do things so *unbelievably* stupid and thoughtless and dangerous and deranged and criminally negligent that it can make your brain spin right around in your skull-pan. > And if it *was* a plan, then why would he tell *Peter?* Because part of the social function of the guy in the group of friends who isn't *quite* in the same league as everyone else is to serve as admiring audience to tales of the others' exploits. Sirius, James and Lily *trusted* Peter, remember. They suspected Lupin, but they trusted Peter with their lives. Even though they (or at least Sirius) thought that he was weak. Why? I imagine that it was in part because they considered loyalty to be one of his most striking characteristics. The person who serves as Admiring Audience to tales of others' amazing exploits is often viewed that way. It's a tragically easy mistake to make, which is part of why sycophants are traditionally cast as traitors and backstabbers. They're well-positioned to play that role. I don't find it at all inconceivable that Sirius would have told Peter that he'd just sent Snape down the tunnel. I don't find it at all inconceivable that Peter, who does seem to be prone to seeing the more pessimistic possibilities inherent in any given situation ("He was taking over everywhere!" "You're going to kill me too?"), might have twigged to the godawful potential ramifications of this action long before Sirius would have. And I don't find it at all inconceivable that he would have then gone and told James all about it. Isn't that what Peter does? He's a *rat,* isn't he? A tale-teller? A betrayer of secrets? And someone who looks to those he perceives as more powerful than he is to resolve problems for him. > Anyway, I really don't see why he would have told Peter. > And also, who *cares* if it was Peter that tipped James > off? Where's the Bang in that? The main reason that I am convinced that it must have been Peter isn't one of Bang, per se, but of thematic consistency. This relies on the supposition that part of the whole *point* of the Prank in the story is to serve as a kind of showcase for the self- sabotaging behavior patterns of the characters of Harry's parents' generation, those roles which it is Harry's job to help them to surmount, just as on the broader scale it is Harry's job to help the entire wizarding world to correct the errors and heal the wounds of the past. When I look at Shrieking Shack, I see a group of characters engaging in precisely the same behavior patterns that they did thirteen years before -- behavior patterns that indeed seem to be their own personal Nemeses, behavior patterns that throughout the book, they seem to keep imposing on *themselves,* almost as if they are unwilling to make the leap of maturity necessary to overcome them. Remus Lupin -- Dangerous Monster Sirius Black -- Vengeful Killer Severus Snape -- Thwarted Villain Sirius, thanks in part to Harry's intercession, breaks free of his script at the end of PoA. Remus (with his forgetfulness about his Wolfsbane Potion) and Severus (with his...er...entire *thing,* really) are still sabotaging themselves and so remain trapped. So. One down. ;-> Here, I refer back to a very ancient post of Pip's. Pip: > I have a little theory . . . . that all the Marauders had some > basic character flaw, and that one of the effects Harry is having > is to make them face that and overcome it. If we accept this as a supposition and then look to the Prank as its dramatic illustration, then it seems to me that Peter *must* be revealed to have had some role to play in the Prank. As it does seem to me that Peter's primary failing is his lack of loyalty, a scenario in which Peter was loyal to *no one* in regard to the Prank makes a good deal of structural sense. Personally, I don't think that Sirius told Peter about sending Snape down to meet Lupin after the fact. I suspect that Peter aided Sirius in the Prank in the first place. And *then* went running to James. Elkins From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jan 31 23:52:20 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 23:52:20 -0000 Subject: Not Slytherin, not Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 51312 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "derannimer " wrote: > > The Sorting Hat does not put the biased in Slytherin; it puts the > *ambitious* in Slytherin. Ambition is, canonically, the standard the Hat uses to Sort the Slytherins. So why is it that all the ambitious just happen to also be all the bigoted? > > Why wouldn't there be studious bigots, or brave bigots, or hard- > working bigots? > > Why is there *such* a one-to-one correspondence between ambition and evil in the books? And between ambition and bigotry? > > This is one of the biggest problems I have with the story: the > conflation of the school rivalries and the larger struggle. *Why* is it that all the Bad Guys are coming out of *one House in a boarding school?* The one house, moreover, that Harry most wants to beat at Quidditch? > > I don't know; usually I enjoy the way the genres in the books > interact, but the Boarding School/ Fight Against Evil concurrences I find problematic. The Gryff/Slyth rivalries tend to reduce and *shrink* the broader conflict, for me. > It isn't the ambition to be brave, studious, or hard-working that Sorts you into Slytherin. It's the ambition for *power.* Bigotry ties into that, because those who are hungry for power seldom wish to share it--if they must, they would prefer to share it with people like themselves. There *are* bigots in the other Houses. Ron and Hermione both make bigoted remarks about werewolves. In fact, one of the more realistic things about the series is that it shows that no one in a bigoted environment remains uncontaminated by it, despite good intentions. I'm not so sure that the reputation of Slytherin House is as widely associated with anti-Muggle prejudice or with Dark Wizardry as Harry believes. Voldemort doesn't seem to trade on his Heir of Slytherin connection nowadays--in fact nobody at Hogwarts realized the connection between Voldemort and the Heir except Dumbledore, who kept quiet about it. It's as if he doesn't want it known that the Heir and Voldemort are one and the same. It's a surprise to Ron that Slytherin was anti-Muggleborn. I think that Slytherin's attitudes as preserved in the Hat may have been less hardened than they became later. After all, the Slytherin students who remained behind at Hogwarts and didn't leave when Slytherin did would be those who did not share Slytherin's prejudices. It could be that Riddle, with his "intimate friends" was responsible for re-introducing anti-Muggle prejudice into Slytherin House. The idea that adults outside the Hogwarts environment share Hagrid's "all dark wizards come from Slytherin" bias, or consider it when deciding whom to trust, is not supported in the text. When Arthur Weasley is introducing his co-workers, he doesn't say a word about which House they belonged to. It's true that Arthur has evidently influenced his children against Slytherin. But that could be because he doesn't like the Malfoys, and doesn't want his children influenced by them. That would be reason enough to shun Slytherin without believing that all dark wizards come from that House. I think we are going to see a broader spectrum of Slytherins in the books to come. Not *all* the Slytherins refuse to drink to Harry. This is the first indication that they are not all firmly in Malfoy's camp. Pippin From trondmm-hp4gu at crusaders.no Fri Jan 31 23:23:05 2003 From: trondmm-hp4gu at crusaders.no (Trond Michelsen) Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 00:23:05 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quirrel dead? In-Reply-To: ; from srsiriusblack@aol.com on Fri, Jan 31, 2003 at 05:39:50PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20030201002305.B24480@crusaders.no> No: HPFGUIDX 51318 On Fri, Jan 31, 2003 at 05:39:50PM -0500, srsiriusblack at aol.com wrote: >> Me: Voldie has every reason to lie here. If he abandoned Quirrell, it >> might cause the DEs to have doubts about their allegiance. [...] > So maybe Quirrell is alive... OK, OK, he might be alive, but I can't begin to explain how disappointed I'll be if he does turn up again. Particularly if he makes his sudden reappearance as the villain of any of the remaining books. We've already had two supposedly dead guys as the villain. Isn't it time to let the living take over? -- Trond Michelsen From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 31 23:50:03 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 15:50:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Snape and respect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030131235003.59029.qmail@web21006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 51319 "Tom Wall " wrote: Michael Broadwater wrote: It's a huge leap to go from "Hermione can create flame" to "Hermione set me on fire even though she was sitting in another part of the stadium and I never saw who did it." Tom's reply: Sure, it's a great leap, if Snape's an unobservant idiot. How do we know that Snape *doesn't* know? After all, she was under the seats, but somehow Quirrell was aware that it was her. If Quirrell was aware, I wouldn't say that's it's any stretch that Snape could have figured it out. Me Actually Tom, while Snape may have become aware later on who set him on fire, he didn't have to be an "unobservant idiot" to at least not know at the time who did it. After all, he was performing a counter-curse at the time and his entire attention and focus had to be on Harry. By the time he would know he was on fire, Hermonine would be gone. Now as far as Quirell was concerned, he was also focusing on Harry but the difference is, she actually accidently ran into him and knocked him over. So it would be pretty much impossible for him to not know who did it. But I doubt seriously even if Snape did know that his hostility towards Hermonine would be because of that. After all, if he did know, it would probably have been easy to charge her with the deed and prove it but he never did. So either he didn't know or at least begrudgingly understood why she was doing it. It wouldn't have been his nature to confide to her or Harry what he was actually doing at the time. Huggs Becky From ninerings at earthlink.net Wed Jan 15 05:25:40 2003 From: ninerings at earthlink.net (ninerings) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 00:25:40 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ridiculing the moon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53809 > What's funny about a cockroach? Lupin himself, when lecturing his > students how to face the boggart, says it should be forced into > something comical. > Now, Lupin's moon boggart gets turned into a cockroach. Odd, isn't it? > I don't see the connection between a cockroach and the moon/Lupin's > lycantrophy (sp?). From the student's attemps it seems to be required > to picture the object of fear in a comic situation. How does turning > the moon into a cockroach make fun of the moon? > Any ideas? I firmly believe that this is indeed the moon. Perhaps he was taking such a literally large problem - after all, very few things are bigger than a moon - and turning it into something very small. Something almost beneath consequence. A bug. The seems to be a more experienced, refined result. After all, adults have much more complicated senses of humor. ninerings From kaylee01 at woh.rr.com Wed Jan 8 09:53:37 2003 From: kaylee01 at woh.rr.com (Stacy Patnode) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 04:53:37 -0500 Subject: muggle baiting vs. muggle torture References: Message-ID: <07ee01c2b6fb$d0b785d0$0a00a8c0@userqtmj2qaxb3> No: HPFGUIDX 155738 Irene: >But if Dudley waited a bit longer to eat this sweet, if Arthur was >not still >around, Dudley would be dead. Does not get more harmful than that. >They had no way to predict when Dudley will eat it. >> Stacy responds: Ah, but knowing Dudley as we do, I believe the twins were quite safe in predicting that poor sweet-deprived Dudley couldn't resist pouncing immediately on the brightly wrapped toffees after a summer of grapefruit and "rabbit food." I can't find any examples in the books to support a theory that any of Fred and George's pranks are deadly. Fred and George were defending their "ickle brother" Harry from his bullying cousin, not intentionally seeking out a muggle to torment. I believe that Dudley was in more danger from being smothered by Petunia, throwing herself on top of him and yanking on his tongue, than he was from the toffee. Stacy