[HPforGrownups] A detailed analysis of Snape's hatred of Harry (S.N.O.T.)

[eloiseherisson at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 49096

Diana:

Not knowing Snape's true history with the Death Eaters, I don't know > 
> if Snape was always a spy for Dumbledore or is a former evil DE now 
> working for the good side.  However, this does not affect my theory, 
> which I've called S.N.O.T. or Snape the Nasty Odious Twit.  ;)

Eloise:

Ooh. Well, I can't let that go unchallenged, now, can I?
I firmly believe that Snape *is* a former, evil, fully paid-up DE. But that's 
in the past and as you say, it doesn't really affect the current argument.

I would object to the "Twit" epithet, though. Emotionally immature, yes, but 
not a twit. We had a thread a while back in which Snape's competence was ably 
demonstrated to the satisfactoin of all. Well, all of his fans, anyway! ;-)


> 
> Let's start with Snape as a child in school.  I imagine Snape is 
> very much like Draco Malfoy at that age.  Sirius even says in PoA, 
> while explaining the "prank" they played on Snape to H/H/R in the 
> Shrieking Shack, that Malfoy was always sneaking around trying to 
> catch James, Remus and Sirius (and probably that rat Peter) doing 
> something against the rules so they would be expelled.  This is what 
> Malfoy does constantly - try to get Harry expelled. 

Eloise:

I *do* think we're supposed to read Draco as a pattern for the young Snape - 
up to a point.
But we don't know about their respective backgrounds. I *suspect* Snape's is 
fairly "good", in the sense of being pretty well-born, almost certainly 
pure-blood, but we have no proof of that. One big difference between Draco 
and the adult Snape is that Snape never gives any hint of believing in 
pure-blood supremacy. Now this *could* be a change of heart since his DE 
days, but I'm not convinced. None of the adults who knew Snape as a child 
ever suggest that he is or was prejudiced.

Where I  believe there *is* a similarity is in their relationships with their 
fathers. I believe they both have/had rather cold relationships, ones where 
they never quite lived up to expectation. I believe this from what we see of 
Draco's relationship with Lucius and from Snape's current behaviour. I am one 
of those who believes that Snape looks towards Dumbledore as a father-figure. 
I believe also that he may take a parental (if inappropriate) attitude 
towards Draco, favouring him *because* he didn't receive favour as a child, 
making up for the deficiencies of his own childhood.


Diana:

> Snape was jealous of James' popularity, skill at Quidditch and his 
> small group of close-knit friends, all of which Harry now has at 
> Hogwart¡¦s.  

Eloise:

But Snape was part of his own gang of Slytherins. We don't *know* that Snape 
was jealous of James' relationships. 
Yes, it is Lupin's perception that he was jealous of James' Quidditch skills 
and I accept that. In fact, I take it very seriously and deduce from it (and 
the fact that the staff accepted that he should referee a match) that he was 
no mean player himself. Only a good player would be *jealous* of a 
superlative one.

Of course, he doesn't have a group of close-knit friends *now*, as they all 
ended up dead or in Azkaban.

Even twelve years after James' death, Snape says, > 
> sneeringly, "...a little talent on the Quidditch field..." with 
> great derision while interrogating Harry after Harry's head was seen 
> by Malfoy in Hogsmeade [PoA].  He even attributes "strutting" to 
> James, and to Harry, though nothing in canon suggests that James 
> actually strutted around the school. [C'mon, we all know James 
> didn't strut, right?] 

Eloise:

Do we? I don't suppose he *did*, actually ;-). But I wouldn't mind betting 
that Harry's parents were a little more human than the plaster saints he's 
been led to believe they were so far.

Diana:
We know for a fact Harry doesn't "strut".  > 
> These are all comments made by a man so overcome with jealousy he's 
> poisoning himself with it (figuratively, of course).

Eloise:

Yes, he *is* jealous. But I'm not so sure that he's really jealous about all 
that stuff in his past. *I* believe that it's Harry himself of whom he's 
jealous.
You see, although I believe that Snape *has* redeemed himself, I don't think 
he has in his own eyes. He still needs to do something *big*. And he's a 
control-freak, so he needs to do it *himself*.
As far as we know, he was passing on information to Dumbledore. But he failed 
to give the information that brought down Voldemort: Harry did that. He 
failed to protect the Philosopher's Stone: Harry did that, too.


Diana:

> His jealously of James runs so deep that he's still obsessed by how, 
> in his own eyes as well as other's eyes, he failed to measure up to 
> James while in school.  I mean James and his wife Lily were murdered 
> thirteen years ago and their only child has been living with 
> hateful, spiteful nitwit Muggles!  That¡¦s an amazingly long-lasting 
> and unceasing rage of jealousy for a person to maintain!.  

Eloise:
It is, but no more amazing than someone else's inability to regret nearly 
getting him killed at school or get over his own childish grudge.

But I don't think it's his failure to measure up to James at school that's 
the problem. I mean yes, the two of them detested each other and I don't see 
any reason why he should like him any better now he's dead.

Diana:
> <snip>Despite Snape¡¦s mistaken belief that James only 
> saved Snape from Wolf!Lupin to save himself from being expelled, 
> Snape still owes James a life debt, which according to Dumbledore is 
> a serious thing in the Wizarding World.  Snape would then owe a life 
> debt to a person he loathes and envies more than anything in the 
> world ¡V a person who Snape felt engineered the saving of his life 
> [by endangering it in the first place] thus causing a life-debt for 
> purely selfish reasons.  If Snape ever actually believed that James 
> had no foreknowledge of the prank and saved his life just because it 
> was the right thing to do, then Snape¡¦s head would probably explode 
> in a fit of catastrophic jealousy.  After all, this would mean James 
> may have been *worth* all the popularity and attention because he 
> was a heroic and genuinely good person.  This is not a view Snape 
> can ever accept for his own peace of mind. 


Eloise:
But there's an alternative view of the long-term outcome of the Prank and the 
life-debt thing. If we're right (and there's no proof, I know) that it was 
Snape who provided the information that Lily and James > were in danger, if he 
> really *did* try to save the life of the man he hated (and pay back his 
> life-debt in addition) and then because of James' pig-headedness, he ended 
> up getting himself killed anyway.......Well, I can see someone like Snape 
> being pretty angry. He made Snape *fail*.

I mean, the man just can't get a break with this redemption thing, can he?

If he's envious of James, well, I think it's because James didn't make the 
same mistakes he did. Because James saw Voldmort for what he was. Because 
James died a hero. I'm sure Snape would give his life to defeat Voldemort - 
we see that at the end of GoF. I think he'd rather be a dead hero than a live 
failure.


> <snip explanation of Snape visiting the sins of the father upon the son>

Eloise:
I largely concur. I just don't think it's the whole story.

> <>So, Snape is 
> cruel [¡§I see no difference.¡¨ to Hermione¡¦s overgrown teeth in GoF, 
> for example] to Hermione and Ron because he sees them as living 
> examples of Harry¡¦s undeserved popularity and *better* life.    

Eloise:
I completely agree that Snape dislikes Hermione and Ron *because* of their 
association with Harry.
Although I think he has problems with Hermione in her own right.

Diana:

> <>Like James, Harry also gets away with breaking the rules, a lot, and 
> gets a lot of breaks.  In Snape¡¦s view, this is another unfair perk 
> that both James enjoyed and Harry enjoys while at Hogwarts.  What 
> Snape doesn¡¦t realize in his obsessive hatred of all things James 
> and Harry, is that Harry breaks the rules not because he *can*, but 
> because he *must*.  Harry doesn¡¦t go after the Sorcerer¡¦s Stone for 
> fun ¡V he goes to stop Voldemort from getting it first.  Harry 
> doesn¡¦t go into the Chamber of Secrets because he¡¦s just curious 
> what¡¦s in there ¡V he goes to save Ginny¡¦s life.  Harry doesn¡¦t 
> *consort* [Snape¡¦s word, not mine] with werewolves and murderers 
> because he thinks he¡¦s immune from punishment or injury, but because 
> he was trying to save Ron from being eaten by an enormous black 
> dog.  


Eloise:

I wonder how much Snape actually broke the rules at school? Sneaking around 
after MWPP after hours?

Mmm. Harry and the rule-breaking. As you say it's *why* he breaks the rules 
that is crucial. One of the things we have discussed before is Snape's 
relationship with Dumbledore. I think it is quite clear that Snape disagrees 
with Dumbledore over the way he treats Harry. What isn't clear is *why* he 
disagrees. It's quite possible that it *is* simply petty jealousy. OTOH, it 
could also be partially (or completely) because Harry's rule-breaking is 
often pretty life-endangering. I do believe that he might have the same 
concerns as many listies express over Dumbledore's apparent willingness to 
subject, or at least condone Harry subjecting himself to danger. At the very 
least, since he seems to have decided that he can pay of his life-debt by 
protecting Harry, I think he's pretty keen that the brat doesn't go and get 
himself killed!

I have in the past noted that Snape's anger against Harry at times seem 
paternal.
Specifically, I quoted the Hogsmeade incident. It seems quite clear to me 
that Snape *knew* that Harry was going to try to sneak into Hogsmeade. He had 
a shrewd idea of the route he was going to take. He tried to prevent it, but 
Harry got the better of him. I genuinely believe that he was trying to 
protect him from Sirius Black and that he was livid with him for putting 
himself at so much risk. Just as a parent can be livid with a child who has 
deliberately defied rules put in place for their safety.

Then there's the Shrieking Shack. 
Like father, like son.
James *did* lose his life because he arrogantly trusted Sirius (his opinion, 
rather than his ability to keep a secret).
I'm sure Snape *did* believe he had saved Harry's life at that point. Only 
the wretched child wouldn't admit it.

<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; M> 
> 
Diana:
When Harry does break the rules for lesser reasons, such as going > 
> into Hogsmeade without permission, walking the school at night and 
> visiting Hagrid when he¡¦s not supposed to, he is fearful of being 
> caught and expelled.  Harry is afraid of disappointing Dumbledore 
> and of the consequences of getting caught.  Harry never assumes that 
> if he¡¦s caught that he¡¦ll get off because of who he is.  He never 
> trades on being famous and Dumbledore¡¦s favorite as the reason he 
> breaks the rules.  Malfoy, on the other hand, constantly breaks the 
> rules in front of Snape specifically because he knows he won¡¦t be 
> punished.  Harry breaks the rules anyway despite his anxiety of 
> getting caught and expelled because, like his father, it¡¦s part of 
> his very nature.  Snape can¡¦t understand this and sees Harry¡¦s rule-
> breaking as Harry proclaiming how special and famous he is ¡Vso 
> special and famous he won¡¦t be punished for breaking rules.  

Eloise:

Possibly. Although I don't think the Hogsmeade thing was trivial. It was 
actually very stupid and ill-conceived, rule breaking for no good reason and 
a betrayal of Dumbledore's trust.

Snape has a big problem with Harry's fame, IMO. I think it's very hard for 
him that the child of the man he hated is famous for defeating Voldmort as a 
helpless baby, when he had risked so much to try to achieve the same end, 
failing and ending up *teaching* of all things. I don't think he wants fame 
and glory, but I think he *craves* recognition.

I think he also sees fame as a fickle friend. Dumbledore tried to protect 
Harry from its effects by placing him with the Dursleys. I think Snape sees 
it as part of his role to counteract the instant celebrity that he gets when 
he arrives at Hogwarts. Unfortunately he doesn't understand Harry's character 
and assumes that his head will be swelled by fame (as perhaps his own would 
have been?)

Snape projects an awful lot, I feel.


<>> 
> Now Draco, embodying Snape¡¦s adult view of himself when he was a 
> child, sees Harry and his friends in much the same way Snape viewed 
> James and his friends.  Snape would of course empathize with Draco 
> and build him up while tearing Harry down every chance he got.  
> Staying on Lucius Malfoy¡¦s *good side* by hating Harry while 
> praising Draco for the possible purposes of spying on DEs or 
> Voldemort would have nothing to do with how Snape treats Harry.  
> Snape hates Harry for plenty of reasons already and would do so 
> anyway without possibly needing to maintain a cover as a DE.  

Eloise:
Agreed. I just think the reasons are a bit more complicated. And I don't 
think it has anything to maintaining a cover, although staying in Lucius' 
good books is, IMO essential (but that has to do more with his treatment of 
Draco).

> 
> IMO, Snape will *always* hate Harry because Harry, exactly like his 
> father before him, is the person who gets everything while Snape 
> [and now Draco] gets the short end of the stick.  Not only does 
> Harry get to do everything without ever seeming to get severely 
> punished, but Snape is obligated by a life-debt to a man he hated to 
> repay that debt by keeping Harry from harm.  By harm I mean death, 
> as I doubt Snape would care if Harry was badly injured as long as he 
> wasn¡¦t going to die.  By example, I cite in GoF when Snape implied 
> he was going to poison Harry at the end of class to test the 
> students¡¦ antidotes.  Snape, as a potions master would have the 
> antidote ready to save Harry¡¦s life but wouldn¡¦t mind subjecting him 
> to some pain and fear of dying before dosing him with the antidote.  

Eloise:
I don't actually think he would cause any physical harm or injury to *any* of 
his students, not even Harry. Snape frequently threatens things which he 
doesn't carry out (normally expulsion!). That's not to say he doesn't have so
me sadistic tendencies. But I personally think he would draw the line at 
physical harm. 

> When Harry is called out of class for photos with the other 
> champions, Snape is furious because Harry¡¦s luck and *better* life 
> has triumphed again and Snape was denied his little *torture of 
> Harry* session.  
> 
> At the end of PoA, Snape is denied a chance to bask in some glory 
> and fame by being the person who saved the life of the famous Harry 
> Potter, so he vents with his bitter and nearly unhinged verbal 
> attack on Harry and Hermione in the hospital ward.  Because Harry, 
> Hermione and, importantly, Dumbledore, don¡¦t acknowledge and confirm 
> Snape¡¦s view of events, then Snape is denied settling the life-debt 
> he owes to James by saving Harry and is being dismissed, again, by 
> Dumbledore as Snape feels Dumbledore dismissed Black¡¦s prank to 
> murder him many years ago.  

Eloise:
This is a complicated one and we discussed it at length a while ago. I can't 
find the whole thread, but Porphyria and I discussed it in #43415/ 43421 (I 
think it must have started out under another name. I know Pippin was 
involved.)

Diana:
Snape can¡¦t claim he saved Harry¡¦s life > 
> by muttering a counter-curse to Quirrell¡¦s attempt to kill Harry at 
> the Quidditch match in PS/SS because Quirrell stopped jinxing the 
> broom before Hermione interrupted Snape¡¦s counter-curse by setting 
> his cape on fire.  

Eloise:

You know, we only have Dumbeldore's word for it that Snape's reason for 
trying to save Harry was to fulfill the life-debt. Who says he didn't 
genuinely want to save him? And he *did* save Harry's life then, because, as 
Quirrell admitted he would have had him of the broom long before if it hadn't 
been for Snape's counter-curse.



Diana:

> Snape¡¦s treatment of Neville Longbottom is also very indicative of 
> his unpleasant personality and complete lack of compassion.  Snape 
> picks on Neville because he can ¡V and Neville gives him the reaction 
> Snape wants, fear.


Eloise:

I'm hard-pushed to say that it's not purely bullying behaviour. Though others 
have suggested that he is trying to push Neville so hard to force some magic 
out of him in reaction. I'm not sure about that. But I am sure that he *can't 
stand* incompetence. I also wouldn't be surprised to hear that there's some 
back-history linking Snape and the Longbottoms.

> 
> So, to conclude, Snape is an unpleasant, hateful, spiteful and petty 
> person.  That is just who he is.  IMO, he is not trying to cover up 
> his opposition to Voldemort and the DEs by abusing Harry ¡V he just 
> hates Harry for personal reasons of his own.  If Voldemort was 
> really dead with no chance of coming back, Snape would still hate 
> Harry just as much.  I cannot see Snape changing such a basic tenet 
> of his personality and part of his life ¡V his intense hatred for 
> James, then Harry ¡V in some future book.  If Harry were to ever save 
> Snape¡¦s life, no matter how accidentally, I imagine poor Snape would 
> probably have an apoplectic fit to rival the Big Bang.  ;)


Eloise:
I don't know. I don't think they'll ever *like* each other. But I think they 
will eventually come to recognise each other's strengths and qualities. I 
will be disappointed if Snape doesn't do *some* emotional growing up in 
however many books he's got left. And you know, Harry could do worse than 
acknowledge that from time to time Snape has done, or attempted to do things 
for him. Like keeping him on his broomstick and enduring the unpopularity of 
the rest of the staff room for refereeing a match to protect him and trying 
to prevent him from going to Hogsmeade when the man he thought was trying to 
murder him was at large and trying to protect him directly from the same when 
he found them in the same room.

JKR described him as a "deeply horrible person" (and incidentally, talking of 
long-held grudges, he was originally inspired by a teacher from JKR's 
childhood, wasn't he? These scars can persist!). I guess he is. But I think 
one of the strengths of his characterisation is that we can find *many* 
reasons for his hatred of Harry and some of them I feel if not justifiable 
are to an extent understandable.

If you haven't read it already, Diana, I think you might find Porphyria's 
essay (job.html in the essays folder in the Admin files) very interesting.
 

> <>
And finally, a comment from Alla:

I am sorry, I am very passionate about this subject. I have a 
tremendous respect for teaching profession. Before coming to the 
States I was training to be a teacher and I was blessed with 
fantastic teachers all my life. I know if I ever had a teacher like 
Snape, I would not be able to suceed ever.



Eloise:
Me too. But that, according to JKR, is not Dumbledore's opionion:

Q.Why does Professor Dumbledore allow Professor Snape to be so nasty to the 
students (especially to Harry, Hermione, and Neville)?

 JKR: Dumbledore believes there are all sorts of lessons in life...
 horrible teachers like Snape are one of them!

(Yahooligan! Chat, Oct 20, 2000).

The education Hogwarts provides is somewhat, er, robust, isn't it?

~Eloise




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