Only one Dumbledore and the Time Turner?

[Susan Atherton]

No: HPFGUIDX 49351

>sagelyone wrote:
>In PoA, when the trio goes to see Hagrid prior to McNair and 
company, is Dumbledore with them? I recall that he is there but I 
think HRH leave the hut before they see Dumbledore. They may be 
headed towards the dog and cat by the time Dumbledore & co. first 
speak in the hut. 

Me: Dumbledore is NOT with them. He comes down after them with McNair et al, and they have to leave when Hagrid hears him coming. They (HRH, aka HH1) never see him. Only HH2 see him.

>Sagelyone: We know that when Harry and Hermonine go back with the time turner, 
they hear DD saying, "Oh wait, McNair, you forgot to sign here." 
(Sorry I don't have my books or tapes available.) 
It seems as is DD *knows* that Harry and Heromine need a few more 
seconds to pull Buckbeak away. Granted DD knows almost everything (I 
think he can see through invisibility cloaks in some way), but I 
sense there's much more to his amusement there. He also tells the MoM 
guys to search the skies, withdrawing attention from the grounds. 

Me: I brought up a point last week about being Invisibility Cloaks which lead to a discussion about Dumbledore's glasses. I believe they work in a similar way to Moody's eye, and he could see that HH2 were having trouble with Beaky. Of course, he could just be telling McNair he forgot to sign it. (If DD saw HH2 out of the window/through the wall, it puts paid to the theory of DD not knowing HH2 existed, but instead only knowing Buckbeak got away, and perhaps if HH1 (in his eyes the ONLY HH) used the Time Turner, they could be the ones who freed him... my effort at DD's thinking)

Sagelyone:
>I've been wondering: what if DD watched all of this from his office 
window the first time around? I know Hagrid said that DD was going to 
be there regardless, but I'm sensing that our good wizard is doing 
quite a bit more in the space/time continum than we/I realize. A part 
of me suggests that he went back in time with Harry and Hermonine, 
but I just don't know. 

Me: ~shakes head~ I hate this time thing. It's confusing as all get out - I understand it in my head, but trying to articulate it is so difficult! Here goes: DD didn't watch anything from his office the first time around, because there WAS no first time around. DD didn't have the opportunity to time-turn, because just as HH1 lost sight of him, HH2 caught up to him - one or the other version of Harry and Hermione was watching him at all times. DD was always in the hut. Buckbeak always escaped. DD knew this, and when he gave HH1 the hint about "two innocent lives" just before they became HH2, he was tipping them off to Buckbeak's apparent escape, NOT Buckbeak's rescue (he probably had his suspicions, but didn't know for certain Beaky hadn't just pulled himself free and flown off). Imagine it like this: 

6pm            9pm   time turned period    12am         ---->The Future---->
--------------------------------------------------------->Dumbledore and the rest of the world
------------------------------------------|HH1 
                   |------------------------------------------>HH2

Dumbledore's timeline goes on in one straight line, but imagine the end of HH1's line linking back to the beginning of HH2's, and then imagine that line overlaid on top of Dumbledore's. (Confusing, I know!) At, say, 12am, HH1 CEASED TO EXIST, because they became HH2, who were essentially born at 9pm that night. For three hours (9pm-12am) both versions of Harry and Hermione co-existed, and then at midnight, HH1 disappeared into the ether (well, the past, but you know) and HH2 became the ONLY version of Harry and Hermione. Until 9pm, there was ONLY HH1, and had been their whole lives previously; after 12am, there was ONLY HH2, and continued to be for the rest of their lives (or until next time they time-turn ;) ) (BTW, I'm just picking 9-12 as a random 3hrs; it could be 7-10 for all I know, or anything else). Understand? Good, now you can explain to to me :)

>Sagelyone:
>I am confused about the last part of the work with the Time Turner. 
When DD locks them in the room the "first time" how do they get out 
of the ward without bumping into themselves considering they're also 
running down the hall to meet a beaming DD? My understanding is that 
he listens at the door and says, "I think you've gone now." 

Because when HH2 left the area, it was three hours ago, and they weren't locked in the hospital wing. Nobody was locked in there at 9pm. I'm assuming you mean how did HH2 get out of the ward, without bumping into themselves? Because the HH running down the hall to meet a beaming DD were also HH2, and HH2 can't bump into HH2, because they ARE HH2. If you start to think of them as two separate entities, it starts to make a bit more sense. He (DD) says goodbye to HH1 at 12am, and is about to lock them in, when suddenly HH2 run up to him. As they are blurting out that they did it, and Sirius has escaped, Harry1 is being grabbed by Hermione1 on the other side of the door and hustled under her TT chain. As Dumbledore listens to the door, HH1 have just time-turned, and no longer exist - they've just disappeared back to 9pm and become HH2. However, they've become the HH2 of three hours ago, of 9pm, and not the HH2 of 12am, who are currently standing outside the hospital wing door with DD. DD listens, can't hear HH1, so he lets HH2 in and locks them in. From his perspective, as soon as he shuts the door on Harry and Hermione, they reappear behind him. However, WE know he's just shut the door on HH1 and it's HH2 who are behind him. To him and the rest of the WW, Harry Potter, Hermione Granger and Ron Weasley were locked in the hospital wing from 12am onwards, until Sirius' escape is discovered. To Harry Potter and Hermione Granger, they actually got up to another three hours of mischief. If Ron had been awake, he would have seen Harry and Hermione vanish into thin air (HH1), and then another Harry and Hermione (HH2) come in a few seconds later and be locked in by Dumbledore. Nobody missed them, because technically, they never actually went anywhere.

Is there a second door in the hospital wing? Or did the TimeTurner 
transplant them from the room to the entrance hall? Is Dumbledore's 
magically locking of the door silent compared to a manual locking of 
the door? This whole scene completely confuses me. 

There is no second door. However, one small problem I've had is that HH1 disappeared from the hospital wing, but reappeared in the entrance hall, right? ~runs off to get PoA~ Yes, I've just double-checked, and they disappear from "the dark ward" but reappear in the "deserted Entrance Hall". Now that's moving space as well as time, and THAT'S confusing, because JKR always seemed to go in for the time-not-space rule, rather than the time machine thing of moving through both space and time (like driving the DeLorean in Back to the Future, which moves you from point A to point B as well as from time A to time B). I suppose Harry could have been utterly confused and Hermione dragged him outside before he realised it, but canon doesn't support that, and it says he'd no sooner realised where he was than H2 dragged him into a broom cupboard! Anyway, that to me is a FLINT, so I can't help you there. But I hope my explanation of the time thing has helped. Just please don't start asking me about person-X and the Patronus casting... 

~groans as she wonders where the Migraleve is from last week~

Susan
who hopes the TT does make a reappearance, because she understands it (or thinks she does) but hates trying to explain it and not having the words!
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Susan, Kayti, Lorna and Noj - the Bridget, Jude, Shazza and Tom of the future!
Despite constant warnings, you never meet anyone who's had their arm broken by a swan.
Men are very like slinkys; a bit pointless but fun to watch fall down stairs.


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