[HPforGrownups] Lupin niceness factor & Harry as human Sneakascope

[srsiriusblack at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 49618

Before I start in, please forgive me Diana if I reiterate with much 
enthusiasm some of what you have said;)

In a message dated 11/01/2003 03:58:49 Eastern Standard Time, 
dianasdolls at yahoo.com writes:


> Maria:
> >And yet another thought. While Fake!Moody is cool, he isn't 
> really nice<
> 
> Pippin replied:
> Oh, he's nice to Neville. Gives him that Herbology book. Harry 
> even thinks it's something Lupin might have done.
> 
> Now me:
> Except Fake!Moody *only* gave Neville that book as a round-a-bout 
> and sneaky way to help Harry in the second challenge of the Tri-
> wizard Tournament.  Barty!Moody figured that Harry would ask 
> everyone around him for aid in figuring out how to breathe 
> underwater, including Neville, but Harry did not.  In fact, Barty!
> Moody even said that he was quite frustrated at how "proud and 
> independent" Harry was because he *never* asked Neville for help in 
> trying to find a way to breathe underwater.  Barty!Moody even tells 
> Harry that Neville would have told him in a second about gillyweed, 
> if *only* Harry had bothered to ask him.  So, Barty!Moody was then 
> forced to stage a conversation with McGonagall asking her if Harry 
> would think to use gillyweed in order to breathe underwater, knowing 
> that Dobby, who owed Harry for setting him free [and worships Harry, 
> too], was listening and then would run straight to Harry with the 
> information.   

I always believed that Barty!moody made a mistake in planting ( pardon the 
pun) the book on Neville as surely he would have heard McGonagal and Snape 
putting Neville down at some point. But, I also think that in this particular 
situation we see something that may become a common thread in the Cannon. It 
seems to me that Voldemort and his supporters under estimate the virtues of 
goodness and independence that many of their adversaries-::cringe::: 
'mudbloods' and 'half breeds' alike may share. For example, Hermione is a 
muggle born, and yet, she in Harry's position would NEVER ask the aid of 
random people ( and in all actuality probably no one) in solving anything. As 
she is our Muggle born "icon" I use her as example. She is fiercely 
independent and would figure things out on her own- to her own destruction I 
fear- before asking the help of another. Harry only asks aid from the other 
two members of the trio. And, I am not sure he actually ever said, "HELP ME". 
They are his 'marauder-esque" group, and therefor will *always* aid him them. 
Barty!Moody's assumption that Harry would ask everyone and anyone for help 
seems to me to be quite a hint. Harry's mum is muggle born- inho, but there 
are some here that have other theories- therefore his blood is tainted. 
Barty!Moody sets a precedence in my mind as to how DE's and L.V. suspect the 
minds of those of impure blood work in giving Neville the book. 

When I first read GoF I couldn't fathom why of all people Barty!Moody chose 
Neville to plant the information in. It doesn't make sense as Neville is 
absolutely the LEAST likely person Harry would go to for help. ( if you are 
insulted please check my posts on Neville as I think we can "expect great 
things from" him.) Harry just would not have thought of Neville as a resource 
for anything other than herbology. Granted Gillyweed is in Herbology, but no 
one apparently other than the Professors and Neville know of its magical 
attributes. Hermione, Ron and Harry toil over countless books and never find 
mention of it- so it isn't something mentioned in the library books on spells 
and enchantments-'course they NEVER think about Herbology in their quest for 
an answer....

Actually this brings up a new point on my Neville is going to be great 
theory. HHR are always looking to spells and enchantments for answers when 
Herbology is CLEARLY a resource for important information. Neville may just 
become part of the "gang" as he holds an understanding of something which the 
trio does not....

But back to the point... Barty!Moody underestimates Harry and his drive and I 
truly believe this may be the opinion of many a DE on "half breeds" and 
"mudbloods"

( I apologise if I am ranting,,, it is late but I want to respond)

> More than once, Harry seems a little unsure of Fake!Moody, 
> especially in the beginning.  Harry was rather horrified after Fake!
> Moody's first lesson showing them the Unforgivable Curses.  How much 
> of that was due to his sudden realization that that was how his 
> parent's died, I don't know, but at least some of seems to have been 
> because of Fake!Moody.  
> "They were talking about the lesson, Harry thought, as though it had 
> been  some sort of spectacular show, but he hadn't found it very 
> entertaining - and nor, it seemed, had Hermione."  [GoF, page 218, 
> 1st American edition]
> "...Moody turned his magical eye upon Harry. 'You all right, are 
> you, Potter?'  'Yes,' said Harry, almost defiantly."  [GoF, page 219
> 


Me:

Barty!Moody is established with Real!Moody's appearance which on all honesty 
might scare the "bejeesus" ( borrowing a word from a friend) out of a child. 
But, I agree that Harry approaches Barty!Moody with some trepidation. 
Barty!Moody is a little spooky with his "constant vigilance" and appearance, 
but I think this particular scene is more due to Harry's first understanding 
of just how his parents died....



> 
> >>Lupin, on the other hand, *is* extremely nice,
> Harry feels it, and I don't think you can fake that kind of
> thing. In 
> this case I'd trust my gut feeling, which is what I do.<<
> 
> Pippin replied:
> Harry's gut failed to warn him about Quirrell, Lockhart, Riddle, 
> Scabbers, or Fake!Moody. I don't think, despite his boast to 
> Draco about knowing who the wrong sort are, that his track 
> record is very good. 
> 
> Now me:
> I'll start off by saying that Harry is not a living Sneak-o-scope, 
> and sometimes has trusted the wrong people, but that is because he 
> trusts Dumbledore's judgement about people, except where Snape is 
> concerned.  And his feelings toward Snape are totally based upon 
> Snape's constant, vicious mistreatment of Harry, Ron, Hermione, 
> Neville and basically every Gryffindor he comes across.  
OK. Quirrel's story line is hard for even me to grasp when I reread PS. I 
want it to be Snape. It is logical for it to be Snape. Harry has no reason or 
experience to NOT trust Quirrel. ( Voldie explains WHY it is Quirrel at the 
end of PS- well done there) But, it is true- no one would expect poor 
stuttering professor quirrel


> Dumbledore hired Lockhart because no one else wanted the job.  


Lockhart, although an IDIOT as Harry and Ron both Immediately notice never 
truly endangered Harry. He was just a baffoon. And, Harry realised it right 
off. Harry never liked Lockhart. So this is a moot point in trying to explain 
whether or not Lupin is a baddie ( which I still say he is NOT, most 
vehemently)

> Dumbledore never knew Peter Pettigrew was an animagus.  The fact 
> that Lupin never told Dumbledore he, Sirius, Peter and James were 
> unregistered Animagi...let me quote the book:
> 
> "'I sometimes felt guilty about betraying Dumbledore's trust, of 
> course...he had admitted me to Hogwarts when no other headmaster 
> would have done so, and he had no idea I was breaking the rules he 
> had set down for my own and others' safety.  He never knew I had led 
> three fellow students into becoming Animagi illegally.  But I always 
> mangaged to forget my guilty feelings every time we sat down to plan 
> our next month's adventure.  And I haven't changed..."  
> "Lupin's face had hardened, and there was self-disgust in his 
> voice."  'All this year, I have been battling with myself, wondering 
> whether I should tell Dumbledore that Sirius was an Animagus.  But I 
> didn't do it.  Why?  Because I was too cowardly.  It would have 
> meant admitting that I'd betrayed his trust while I was at school, 
> admitting that I'd led others along with me...and Dumbledore's trust 
> has meant everything to me.  He let me into Hogwarts as a boy, and 
> he gave me a job when I have been shunned all my adult life, unable 
> to find paid work because of what I am.  And so I convinced myself 
> that Sirius was getting into the school using dark arts he learned 
> from Voldemort, that being an Animagus had nothing to do with 
> it...so, in a way, Snape's been right about me all along."
> Lupin obviously regrets his cowardice and selfishness and confesses 
> this to Harry.  If Snape is attributed all the these 'heroic' traits 
> as a former DE-spy now working for the good, all while verbally 
> abusing Harry his friends and every Gryffindor he runs across, then 
> I can't see why Lupin must be painted as evil, treacherous and a 
> villian because he did something very stupid and then admits it.  


Thank you! Finally someone agrees with me. See my most recent Lupin posts. 
This si such a battle in his mind- to tell Dumbledore or not to tell. Lupin 
is no baddie. Lupin is someone who maintains his loyalties to the only people 
who have EVER been his friends and more so his family. And it is in these 
statements that Lupin makes that he also makes an apology- albeit not direct, 
but Harry "gets it".

> 
> Now I want to go over each person you named above.  In the case of 
> Quirrell, Harry hates Snape as much, if not more, than Snape hates 
> him and was blinded by these feelings enough to never conclude that 
> Quirrell could be evil while Snape was trying to do good.  [Side 
> question: Did Snape tell Dumbledore about his suspicions about 
> Quirrell trying to get the Sorcerer's Stone?  I don't think he did 
> or Dumbledore would have had Quirrell, and therefor Voldemort, 
> immediately in hand.  Why didn't Snape tell Dumbledore?  Hmmm?]  
> Even Quirrell commented that Snape acts like a villian while in the 
> final chamber with Harry in SS/PS.  


Snape, by many accounts in these discussion, I feel is more treacherous and 
evil than Lupin. Quirrel really WAS a threat to Harry. ( sorry, I know I 
overreact, I do just love Lupin so much) But, Snape withholds valuable 
information all year is PS to Dumbledore. If Snape had actually told 
Dumbledore of Quirrel's activities Harry would not have faced Voldie. ( true 
there would have been little point to the book, but you get my meaning)

> Lockhart was the only person who came forward to take on the 
> position of DADA professor, as Hagrid states in CoS.  Harry detests 
> Lockhart because Lockhart embarrasses him constantly, and Harry 
> avoids him whenever possible.  He knows he is a vain, pompous, 
> celebrity-fixated git.  And he knows that Lockhart doesn't seem to 
> know what he's doing when it comes to performing magic, which is why 
> Harry didn't want Lockhart trying to fix his arm when the bludger 
> broke it in CoS.  Harry knows something is "off" about Lockhart, but 
> can't quite put his finger on it - and given all the things going on 
> at Hogwarts that year, doesn't really think about it enough to put 
> all the clues together.  Harry is curious, but not nosy.  
> Also, while Harry had his suspicions about Lockhart, he must have 
> concluded that Lockhart wouldn't have published all those books and 
> be so famous in the WW if he was a *completely* clueless git.  The 
> fact that it turns out that Lockhart is also on the close side of 
> nasty by trying to erase Harry's and Ron's memories and sacrifice 
> Ginny's life to preserve his fame and fortune was probably quite 
> surprising to Harry since most of the villians Harry encounters want 
> to torture him, tear him limb from limb, kill all muggle-borns and 
> wreck havoc upon the WW and the Muggle world.  Lockhart was a very 
> small-minded villian, who, if he'd succeeded in the CoS would have 
> inadvertently allowed Voldemort to come back to life as a strong, 
> human-looking sixteen-year-old. 
> In the case of Tom Riddle and his diary, Harry is so driven by the 
> desire to solve the mystery of the Chamber of Secrets that he uses 
> the diary as a means to an end [sort of a Slytherin trait, eh? :D] 
> to find out what happened last time the chamber was opened.  Harry 
> wants to solve the mystery so badly that he ignores Ron's warning to 
> not pick up the diary, and keeps it regardless of the danger it may 
> hold.  Harry also believed that Riddle was only a memory that spoke 
> through a diary.  He is still quite unfamiliar with many magical 
> things that most wizards would be wary of, and would not even 
> remotely think that Riddle could suck the life out of Ginny and come 
> back to life.  Harry was so worried about Ginny that he didn't 
> really focus on Riddle at first, but his attitude changed quickly 
> toward him when he really began to focus on him.


Good point. I haven't been on the list a LONG time, so I don't know how much 
Lockhart has been discussed. I am only up to post 885 other than the daily 
posts since I joined. But, I tend to yield to your arguement that Lockhart 
could have been a baddie... a pathetic baddie, but he was certainly driven by 
greed and a need to be more than he was. But, again, I really think Harry and 
Ron saw him for what he was. ;)

> As for Scabbers, Harry didn't think he was anything more than a fat, 
> old rat.  I'm not going to say that Harry's lack of perception was 
> responsible for not recognizing what Scabbers really was.  Heck, an 
> entire family of wizards [yes, I mean the Weasleys!] didn't know 
> that Scabbers was more than a rat for over twelve years!
> I can't find the quote right now, but I'll keep looking and post it 
> when I find it, but somewhere in PoA, I remember Harry as thinking 
> that he could help trusting Lupin.  
> 

Thank you! No one ever knew! Period. In the end, it is Lupin who brings out 
the truth. It is Lupin who makes good. Lupin just cannot be a baddie. Yes, he 
has his own inner struggles and demons, but Lupin only did what he thought 
was right. Were his loyalties misplaced? In the end, they were not. I still 
stand by the concept that had Lupin gone to Dumbledore (who I soooo want to 
call Dumbly-dore as I just reread GoF) Dumbledore would have informed the 
ministry of Sirius Animagus form, Sirius would have been caught and had the 
Kiss administered before anyone knew the truth!

-Snuffles- who loves Lupin
"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty 
recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the 
dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with 
open eyes, to make it possible. This I did."  T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of 
Wisdom


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