Snape as past/future spy WAS Re: Question about Snape and Quirrell

[Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>]

No: HPFGUIDX 49714

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "firekat482 <firekat482 at y...>"
<firekat482 at y...> wrote:
> bboy_mn wrote:
> 
>  So, Snape was not acting against Voldemort. He was not conciously
>  choosing Dumbledore over Voldemort. He was simply guarding a very
>  dangerous magical artifact from a very dangerous wizard like 
> Quirrel.
>  
>  Of course, it may mean enduring the Cruciatus Curse a few times as
>  penance, but I doubt that Voldie will kill him for that one 
>  transgression. just a few thoughts.
> 
> Now me: (firekat482)
>  
> Hmmm...What about if we look at this from a different angle? You say 
> Snape was not conciously choosing Dumbledore over Voldemort - that 
> in  effect, it would be possible for him to go back to Voldemort 
> because he could always claim that he had no idea that Quirrel was 
> doing Voldie's dirty work. 
> 
> Earlier you also said that within the Death Eater "community" no DE 
> would believe Snape's excuse of spying anymore than they would 
> believe Malfoy's excuse of Imperius. Can we safely assume that 
> Voldemort can be included in that group? That he wouldn't believe 
> those excuses either?
>  -end this part-

bboy_mn:
Once again my dramatic license comes back to haunt me. One more
violation and the Department of Dramaic Licensing will suspend me.

The point wasn't to make an absolute statement of iron clad fact, the
point was to compair the fact that all the free Death Eaters had their
own little way of getting out of trouble. Ways that everyone quietly
assumes was a lie, but can't publically prove. Voldemort doesn't not
necessarily approve of Malfoy claiming bewitchment and denying all
association with Voldemort. Malfoy swore undying loyalty, and
chickened out at the first sign of trouble. So Malfoy is not off
scot-free. He betrayed Voldemort. 

The last minute spy thing of Snape's could be fit into the same
framework. It was his last ditch attempt as saving his own hide, just
like Malfoy claiming being under the Imperus curse. 

Now in Voldemort's eyes, the circumstance is not clear. I believe
Voldemort refers to Snape as 'the one I BELIEVE has left me
forever.... he, of course, will die' (or words to that effect). He did
not speak about Snape in harsh ablsolute terms. He in essense said,
based on what little information I have, it looks like Snape MIGHT
HAVE left me an gone over to the good side, IF he did, then he is a
dead man. If he didn't them I going to torture him 'til he pukes, just
like I'm going to torture the rest of you idiots. 

An element of doubt is left by the choice of words, while at the same
time, that choice of word by Voldemort makes Snape's case look bad.
-bboy_mn-end this part-


~Jean continues:
> ... If Voldemort believes Snape's excuse to be false, then why 
> doesn't he ever bring Snape into his confidence? I mean, aren't two 
> heads better than one? Wouldn't it have made sense for him to find 
> another ally within Hogwarts aside from Quirrel?
> -end this part-

bboy_mn:
He doesn't believe Snape's exuse is false, he has an element of
uncertainty as described above.

You ask why Voldemort-as-Quirrel didn't take Snape into his
confidence. Of course, part of the answer is that element of doubt. At
the moment he had Quirrel and Quirrel completely under his control.
You could also ask why, once he had Quirrel to cart him around, he
didn't go to Malfoy, or McNair, or Avery, or Knott for help. Again the
answer is that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. He had
Quirrel, he had an objective, he had a plan, and considering he really
didn't know if he could depend on the loyalty and help of any of the
free Death Eaters, he chose to stick with his plan. A plan which
seemed adequate at the time. Once again, he didn't could on the poor
waif Harry Potter. Very short sighted of him. 
-bboy_mn-end this part-

> ~Jean continues:
>  
> Basically, my question is this: How can Snape (and Dumbledore, for 
> that matter) feel confident that Voldemort will accept Snape into 
> the fold again, when he didn't even seek Snape's help while looking 
> for the S/P Stone - at a time when he was very weak and needed all 
> the help he could get?
>  -end this part-

bboy_mn:
Well, as I said before, the Stone incident can be explained, although
an accepted explaination doesn't spare Snape from punishment. How does
anyone know that Snape can convince Voldie to take him back? They
don't know, but like any good soldier in war, Snape is willing to give
his life for the cause. 

The critical things Snape must convince Voldie about are the things
that happened during the last Voldemort war. Not things that happened
during the peace that followed. Voldie is going to say, you gave them
THIS information, and Snape is going to have to reply, yeah but, I
gave you THAT REALLY GOOD information. We gave a little and got a lot.
What I gave was inconsequential, what I got was invaluable. That's how
the double agent spy game works. At some point you are going to have
to give each side some genuine secrets of the other side.

-bboy_mn-end this part-

> ~Jean continues:
> IMHO, I don't think Snape can go back and be completly accepted. At 
> the very least, Voldemort *has* to have his suspicions about 
> Snape's loyalty. ... ... ...
>  -end this part-

bboy_mn:
Absolutely right! But I think Voldie is going to be suspicious of
everyone including the Death Eaters who went to prison. Right now all
Voldie can do is promise them the same thing he promises everyone,
that they will be rewarded beyond all others. Notice, it's not
rewarded beyond their wildest dreams; it's a contest between the Death
Eaters to see who can curry the most favor from Voldemort. They don't
want to be rewarded, the want to be more rewarded that the other Death
Eater; they want to be the 'favorite child'. Back to my point, Voldie
can't give anyone anything except bragging rights. How long before
those who spend 14 years in a living hell get tire of living on hot air?
-bboy_mn-end this part-

> ~Jean continues:
> If Snape *does* return as a spy in the following three books, then 
> JKR is going to have to do a lot of explaining (at some point in 
> the last books) about how exactly that was possible. ... ... ...
> -end this part-

bboy_mn:
AMEN to that! This is going to take a heap of fast talking and
explaining, and under the best of circumstances a lot of Cruciatus
pain. I firmly believe this is how things are going to go, but other
that the generalities, I have no idea how JKR is going to pull it off.
-bboy_mn-end this part-


>  
> ~Jean, who hopes she did this right, as it is only her second time 

bbly_mn closes with:
Only you second time? I'd say you did pretty good. Well written, true
to the required form, clear, concise, A+ I would say.

Can't believe I'm replying to a Snape post. Usually not one of my top
subjects.

Just a few thoughts

bboy_mn