[HPforGrownups] give shipping peace a chance [was] Real characters

[Petra Pan]

No: HPFGUIDX 50232

yours truly, in small part:
> Putting characters under the 
> microscope for detailed 
> examinations is, well, why I 
> still lurk here after so many 
> months.  I certainly don't 
> advocate putting characters 
> on pedestals and altars, but 
> going to the extreme opposite 
> of beatification in demonizing 
> certain characters for the sake 
> of winning an argument is more 
> rhetorically exciting than 
> textually insightful.

Eileen wrote: 
> Oh dear, do I see a pattern here? 
> 
> You can write a nine part
> series demonizing Crouch Sr.
> and no-one raises an eyebrow,
> but write a post calling
> Harry or Ron inconsiderate
> and the writer is assumed
> to be doing it for the sake
> of winning an argument, or
> because of their ship. 

I expressed no assumption 
about your motives or your 
ship when I wrote the above 
as a part of my reply.  It's 
just that what you said about 
not considering it a bad 
thing to trash characters led 
me to think...and too much time 
on my hand + thinking = posting.  
:)  I did mention that I don't 
think you egregious, didn't I?  
If I didn't consider it done now.

My point still stands though - 
shipping wars are waged though 
elimination of rivals' can(n)ons 
more often than not - and that 
leads to a less than complete 
understanding of the texts.  
I swear, it's there in the 
snipped verbiage.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/
HPforGrownups/message/50207

Your point stands too - you 
ain't one of them demonizers.  
Pax?  <g>  If you read that 
post as my being specific about 
you or Ebony, then let me 
dispel any confusion: those 
are general comments about the 
shipping wars and those whose 
conduct lead the conversations 
away from deeper understanding 
of canon through the insistence 
on focusing only on that 
which serves their purposes.

If you don't do that, then I 
am not talking about you.

It's just that your comment about 
trashing the characters led me to 
think of the flattening and 
narrowing of the interpretation 
of JKR's full-blown characters.

In regards to the nine part 
series demonizing Crouch Sr., 
which I didn't have time to post 
about then (or the weeks after), 
I'll now throw in my one thought 
(again): if we left all hearsay 
on the wayside and take Crouch Sr. 
at his word, he is a man who 
remained faithful and abiding 
to a wife who gave birth to 
someone else's son.  Besides, 
you haven't failed to say 
what should be said in response, 
y'know.  <wicked grin>  Faster 
than me at any rate.

So, what ship is Crouch Sr. 
an anchor of anyway?  Which ship 
would benefit from the 
demonization of Crouch Sr.?

Eileen:
> Ebony claims not to be
> comfortable with R/Hr *because*
> of her uncomfortableness with
> Ron. The truth is, that I'm
> uncomfortable with both Harry
> and Ron. And I claim that I
> felt this way before I even
> considered shipping in the
> Potter books. 
> 
> Why would anyone doubt our claims? 

Not I.  Really!

Eileen:
> Because Harry and Ron are
> popular characters? And
> attacking them is just not done?

Not at all.  But not seeing them 
as complex characters is 
problematic.  Not actually your 
problem, per se.  But in your 
seafaring voyages surely you 
have met those who do insist on 
reducing canon to simplistic terms.

Eileen:
> And people who claim not
> to wholeheartedly and
> unreservedly like them
> must have some motivation
> other than their instinctive
> reaction to the text?

I'd answer that IF I am guilty 
of holding that opinion...

> Shades of the great Twins
> discussion here.

Didn't have time to reply on 
that thread then either.  I 
know, the perpetually late me.  
The fact that some people are 
plagued by disquiet in the 
reading of the twins as bullies 
says a lot about JKR's 
understanding of the fine line 
between boisterous and bullying 
and how that line lies at different 
points for each person.

It also says a lot about the 
complexity of her characters.

Eileen:
> So, in conclusion, I think
> Harry and Ron are inconsiderate,
> and I would not be friends with
> them in real life most probably,
> not least because they wouldn't
> care to be friends with me. :-)
> They annoy me terribly. As
> characters in a book, I love them,
> and hope to see them mature. 

I second that emotion.

Eileen:
> I don't see how that position
> is rhetorical, or how any
> other person's like, dislike,
> adoration of, atttraction to,
> or lukewarmness about any given
> character should be assumed
> rhetorical. 

I have not made that assumption.
Could you read the rest of that 
post?  My protest is of those 
who go looking for can(n)on 
having already made up their 
minds.  NOT of those who gather 
all evidence first and then come 
to an informed decision that is 
all-encompassing.

Not an easy distinction to 
make, between those two schools 
of thought, I'm afraid.  But 
having discernment is not a crime.

     *     *     *

Since I was too general in that 
last post, I'll raise an example 
of shipping bias: CONNIVING CHICK.  
Try this one on for size:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/
HPforGrownups/message/43157

The shipping bias has led to 
demonizing the current focus for 
Harry's affections, over and over 
again in this fandom.  

It's not just the suppositions 
that I object to - it's the 
support cited too.

Or rather, the lack of thereof.

So, would Cho have to become 
evil if H/G is fait accompli?  
What if she's red-headed with 
freckles and turns out to be 
the 'missing' Weasley child, 
looking more like this listee 
than not?

<wicked grin>

I finally got around to 
typing my thoughts on this today
(sorry Maria, didn't mean to 
blindside you with this):

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/
HPforGrownups/message/50173

And that, is really the point of 
my ranting on about the trashing of 
characters, which has a much less 
sinister connotation in your mind 
than mine, I dare say.  Perhaps this 
is where the tangle in our lines of
communication lies.

Petra
a
n  :)

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