SHIP: The Yule Brawl--The Problem With Reading R/H in GoF

[anguaorc <fausts@attglobal.net>]

No: HPFGUIDX 50310

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Penny Linsenmayer 
<pennylin at s...> wrote:
Angua: 
> <<<<<<We notice how quickly Hermione rises to Ron's bait 
here.>>>>>> 
Penny:
> Are you saying that Ron is *baiting* Hermione deliberately here?  I 
suspect that he was clueless and had perhaps even forgotten that she 
was even there.  I think he *meant* that comment exactly as it 
sounded.  Mind you, I think it's reasonably typical remarks from a 14-
yr old boy ..... but I don't think he was trying to get a rise out of 
Hermione. 

Me again:
Oh, no!  I didn't mean to imply that Ron was doing it deliberately, 
not at all.  'Unintended bait,' I should have said.  Though "Er -- 
yeah, that sounds about right" might have been said to annoy.

Angua:
> <<<<She has sat silently studying her potions notes through Fred 
and George trying to borrow Pigwidgeon, Fred and George discouraging 
Ron's questions with insults, and Fred publicly asking Angelina for a 
date.  She is not shown responding at all, not looking up from her 
work - nothing.>>>
Penny:
> Well ...... why *would* she?  She's quietly studying because she is 
surrounded by normalcy.  When Ron makes an obviously chauvinistic, 
churlish remark, she reacts predictably.  It would have gotten my 
attention too, notorious bookworm that I am.

Me again:
I didn't really think she would look up at Ron's talk with Fred and 
George.  But Fred and Angelina's shouted conversation was not normal 
common room fare.  I thought it was *very* interesting, and I would 
have thought Hermione might as well.

Penny:
> I agree with you that she may or may not already have a date with 
Krum.  I don't see any basis other than subjective wishful thinking 
though for your position that she's angry because she hoped that Ron 
would ask her and now her hopes are deflated.  It's possible that she 
was hoping that Ron would ask her.  It's equally possible she was 
hoping Harry or Krum or Neville would ask her.  We have no idea who 
she had hoped to go with.  All we know is that she's righteously 
angry with Ron for basing his dating choices solely on appearances.  

Me again:
I'm just saying that she responds awfully quickly and vehemently on 
this subject, and reacts by stalking out of the room.  Usually, she 
can take a pretty good bit of Ron's persiflage, without storming out 
of the room (in fact, Hermione stomping away seems to me to be a 
signal for shippy R/H scenes as opposed to normal R/H bickering).  I 
observe that she is oversensitive on this issue, and that her 
oversensitivity is specifically related to *Ron*.  She didn't, for 
instance, bristle when Fred said "all the good ones will be gone," a 
remark that -- while not as offensive as Ron's -- is not free of 
chauvinism.

Angua:
> <<<<Note, too, that Hermione betrays no interest in or curiousity 
about 
> what kind of girls HARRY might want to ask to the ball - even
> though Harry is sitting right there, and Ron's "we" includes 
him.>>>>>>
Penny:
> Well, first off: she wasn't curious about who RON might want to ask 
to the Ball either.  Ron started that entire conversation.  I 
sincerely doubt that Hermione was about to ask Ron or Harry who they 
hoped to go to the Ball with.  But, more importantly, it wasn't Harry 
who had just behaved like an insensitive clod.  It's appropriate that 
her reaction is focused on Ron; Harry hasn't *said* anything.  If Ron 
had made his comment and then Harry had nodded or laughed or 
otherwise expressed agreement and *then* Hermione had focused her 
anger solely on Ron, you'd have a valid point.  But, you don't. 

Angua again:
But, once Ron gave Hermione the opening, she certainly WAS curious 
about Ron's dating criteria.  She could have *easily* given the 
conversation a Harry-related turn, even by something as simple as 
saying "So basically, you're going to take the best-looking *girls* 
who'll have you," rather than "best-looking *girl* who'll have you.  
You may argue that she understands Harry and would never think HE 
would be as superficial as Ron, but, elsewhere, Hermione has no 
trouble bracketing the two of them together, as in her "*Boys*" 
remark in GoF Chapter 10 or her comments on their poor studying 
habits and continued failure to read "Hogwarts, a History."

If Hermione *had* been feeling any anxiety over whether Harry found 
her attractive, it would have been perfectly natural for her to 
associate Ron's remark about "trolls" with Harry as well.  If she 
*had*, I think it would have been a nice little piece of evidence for 
the H/H side.  That she didn't, isn't in any way conclusive, but it 
is yet another missed opportunity.  

Another missed opportunity occurred when Hagrid asked Harry who he 
was taking to the ball a few pages earlier.  If Hermione had looked 
at Harry, or changed the subject, or done anything, really, that 
could have been taken as a clue.  The fact that she didn't doesn't 
prove anything -- it's just another of the many, many places where 
H/H *could have been* foreshadowed, but *isn't*.

> Angua:
But if you take her as simply showing female solidarity, I think 
her "hitting Ron when he is down" is uncharacteristically cruel.  It 
is also cruel to Harry, by the way, simply because he is in the same 
position as Ron.  Not that she pays the slightest bit of attention to 
Harry in this entire scene.  ;)>>>>>>>>>>
Penny:
> I agree that she was very hurt by the trolls remark, but it may or 
may not have anything to do with personal feelings for Ron.  
> 
> Ahem.  You rightly point out that Hermione did not hear Ron dissing 
Neville.  But neither did she have any real reason to see that Ron 
was *down* and abject from Fleur's rejection.  When Hermione walks 
in, the boys are *laughing.*  So, I disagree that Hermione was 
being "uncharacteristically cruel."  Besides, this is the M.O. for 
Ron/Hr, isn't it?  Being sarcastic with just enough edge to be really 
cutting?  

Angua again:
You have an excellent point here.  Hermione's gloating is much more 
forgivable considering that she only saw Ron (and Harry) laughing, 
and did not see either boy showing distress.  And yes, Ron and 
Hermione do not usually pull their punches with each other.

But I agree with you that Hermione was hurt, and is not just needling 
Ron for fun, or from feminism.  She speaks "loftily" and "acidly," 
and "snaps."  There is no lifted eyebrows or sly grin of appreciation 
for karma -- she is angry.  I don't think she is SO insecure about 
her appearance, or SO militantly feminist, as to be *hurt* by Ron's 
remark, UNLESS she wants him to find her attractive.  The contrast 
between her sensitivity here (when Ron wasn't even talking about her) 
and her nonchalance in response to truly vicious public insults about 
her teeth from Draco Malfoy and Pansy Parkinson is striking to me.

> Angua:
> <<<<<<Is Hermione delighted by 
> that karma too, or does she simply not have any attention to spare 
> for Harry right now?>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Penny:
> Well, again, it wasn't *Harry* who made the insensitive Trolls 
comment.  Ron also didn't even have the good sense to try & backtrack 
out of the mess he'd made ("Yeah ..... that sounds about right.").  

Angua again:
I know.  But Hermione's taunts to Ron happen to also apply to 
Harry:  "All the good-looking ones taken?"  "I'm sure you'll find 
someone *somewhere* who'll have you."  There is really no way 
Hermione can be mean to Ron here, without unintentionally being mean 
to Harry as well, which I doubt she wants to do.  But she is 
concentrating so hard on her issues with Ron, that she doesn't seem 
to think of the effect on Harry.  She *is* Ron-centered in this scene.

Penny:
> If Ron "rejected" Hermione, he did so based on appearances, didn't 
he?  

Angua again:
No, but I believe that Hermione thinks so.

Angua:
> <<<<<And I think she is blushing because she recognizes inwardly 
that she 
> is bragging to Ron in a way that is likely to show him that she IS 
> attractive to boys, after all, and maybe (hopefully?) make him 
> jealous.  She blushes *every* time she tells Ron about Viktor 
liking 
> her.>>>>>>>>>>>
Penny:
> If she blushes *every* time she talks about Viktor liking her, that 
might be because *Harry is there.*  

Angua again:
Well it *could* mean that, of course, but one looks in vain for any 
signs, hints, or clues that it *does*.  She is shown talking 
to Ron, looking at Ron, avoiding Ron's eyes, saying "if you *really* 
want to know," etc. -- all hints that it is because *Ron* is there.

There are no indications that it is because *Harry* is there.  None.

Penny:
> I know the R/H fans think there is all this wonderful bantering R/H 
interaction happening off-page, but there's no canon on that.  

Angua again:
No -- we think that there is all this wonderful bantering R/H 
interaction happening ON-PAGE.  Well, we think it probably happens 
off-page as well (because why wouldn't it?) but what we see right 
there in canon is plenty enough to stoke our engines.  They banter 
beautifully, especially considering their young age.


> Angua:  <<<<<Yes, you are seeing this accurately.  Ron, in his 
refusal to 
> recognize the true source of his anger, has really landed a vicious 
punch here.  "You're disloyal *and* not worth dating." Ouch!  What do 
you tell the girls you *don't* have a crush on, Ron?  ;)
                           <snip>
> When Draco Malfoy 
> said "someone's asked *that* to the ball?" Hermione waved
> to Professor Moody and laughed.  She doesn't care whether Malfoy
> thinks she's worth dating or not, but she sure seems to care what 
Ron
> thinks about that subject.>>>>>>>>>>>
> 
> Hang on.  If Ron hadn't thrown a vicious double-barreled punch, 
would her reaction still have been the same?  In other words, isn't 
it possible that the real source of her *hurt* is because Ron accused 
her of disloyalty to Harry?  I think you make my case.  When Draco 
insults her on the basis of her appearance, she laughs it off.  She 
smirks at Pansy and Parvarti, knowing full well that they are likely 
thinking something similar to what Malfoy voiced.  So, why can't she 
laugh it off with Ron?  It *could* be because she has romantic 
feelings for him.  It's equally plausible that it's because it's 
Harry she cares about.  

Angua again:
Wait, that one doesn't make sense.  If it's Harry she cares about, 
why would Ron's opinion of her appearance cause her pain?  Ron's 
opinion of her appearance is relevant only if it is *Ron* she cares 
about.  Unless you think that Hermione thinks that Ron 
will "influence" Harry, while Malfoy wouldn't?

Penny:
> Or, most likely, it's because Ron is her friend, and he's just 
accused her of being disloyal to their other best friend.  Of course 
she's hurt.  I would be too.

Angua again:
This is a possibility, but we can eliminate it by looking more 
closely at the text.  The time when Hermione looked as though Ron had 
slapped her and her voice quivered, Ron wasn't accusing her of 
*disloyalty*:

*****
..."He's just trying to get closer to Harry -- get inside information 
on him -- or get near enough to jinx him --"
*****

Ron might be said to be accusing Hermione of *gullibility* here, but 
not disloyalty.  In this scenario, Krum is the wicked deceitful 
Lothario and Hermione is the innocent dupe.  But the "Krum doesn't 
like you for yourself" implication is full-blast.

Later, Ron "changed tack at the speed of light" and says Krum is 
hoping Hermione will help him with his egg.  Hermione is "outraged" 
at this suggestion, and refutes it warmly, but she is not *hurt*.  It 
was only Ron's first suggestion that Krum had an ulterior motive for 
dating her that caused her to betray hurt.

Also, we must take into account Hermione's hurt response to 
Ron's "troll" comment, his "you are a girl" comment, and his charge 
that she lied to Neville when she had a date.  In none of those cases 
is there any possibility that Hermione's reaction is because she has 
been accused of disloyalty to Harry.  

I think the conclusion that Hermione cares whether Ron thinks she is 
attractive is unmistakeable.

Penny:
> Yeah, I think you're exactly right about the "it," Angua.  It makes 
no sense whatsoever for it to be anything else.  But, the real 
divergence of opinion amongst the shippers relates to interpretation 
of her remark.  My shipmates tend to think that she's very angry.  
He's again throwing this disloyalty thing in her face (so he's not 
even being upfront about the real reason for his anger).  The "it" 
was not "Why did you go to the Ball with Krum .... I asked you!"  It 
was "You were fraternizing with the enemy, going with Krum!"  Her 
angry retort of asking her other than as a last resort becomes a 
little less personal in my mind under the latter scenario.  She's not 
saying that she would accept.  She's saying "Look buddy, you've no 
right to complain about who I go to the Ball with.  You only asked me 
as a last resort ...... because you couldn't get someone prettier.  
But, if you want to change all that, don't ask me as a last 
resort ......and we'll see."  

Angua again:
I can accept your interpretation of what she meant by it, and I still 
find it -- well -- encouraging for Ron.  Whatever her motives, she is 
telling Ron to ask her to the next ball.  Whatever her state of mind, 
she is letting him know that she *minded* being his last resort.

This is far from a declaration of love on Hermione's part, but it is 
an opening offer for further negotiations.  It leaves the door open.

Penny:
> No, the *point* is that Ron has a crush on Hermione.  Hermione now 
knows this.  Whether she reciprocates that feeling is not clear.  
This is December.  If she *knows* he has a crush on her *and* she 
reciprocates it, why doesn't she stop spending time with Krum and 
focus on trying to get Ron to grow up and face his feelings?  She 
goes from at least January - June (6 mths), knowing full well that 
her love interest likes her back ...... and she does nothing to 
encourage him to get a move on?  :::remembers being 14/15 and is 
confused by this scenario::::::::::

Angua again:
She knows that Ron has a crush on her, yes.  But she has not gotten 
him to admit it, even to himself.  PLUS, he called her a troll, said 
Viktor only liked her because she was a friend of Harry, said she 
lied to Neville about having a date, and ruined her very first 
dance.  Ron has lots of 'splainin' to do.  Hermione is not going to 
cut him any slack.  He's got to grow up and ask her nicely -- he 
certainly owes her that much!

And, possibly Hermione *does* stop spending time with Krum -- we 
don't know.  We don't *see* her choosing to be alone with Krum any 
more, except briefly to say goodbye.  She is not very encouraging to 
him at the Second Task.  There is apparently enough lacking in their 
relationship that Krum is worried enough to ask Harry if she has 
something going on with him (ironically guessing the wrong friend).  
I'm sure we'll find out more about this in OOP when the Bulgaria 
invitation is dealt with.

As for her relationship with Ron, I believe that Hermione has drawn 
back.  She is embarrassed by how much she revealed in the "next time" 
comment, and she retreats to a safer friendship ground.  Both of them 
are "oddly formal," seeming to tacitly agree to hold off on "that 
kind of stuff."  Both of them show restraint when they see Krum at 
the lake, and when Krum comes to say goodbye.  Even the pestle-
pounding Potions class scene is quite restrained.  They're both 
scared.  There's no rush.  What will come, will come.
 
> Angua: <<<<<<<Just where, in your opinion, should we look for 
assurance 
> that Hermione *doesn't* like Ron as more than a friend?>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Penny:
> I think the answer is that she likes Harry ........ though maybe 
she likes them both.  But, frankly, if I wanted R/H to be an ultimate 
happy-ever-after resolution, I'm not so sure I'd be jumping up & down 
by the idea that they might date at age 15.  
Angua again:
But "Hermione likes Harry" *isn't* an answer to "does Hermione like 
Ron as more than a friend?"  As you point out, she might like both.  
So even if you were to show "proof" that Hermione likes Harry as more 
than a friend in GoF (and I would be astonished if you could), it 
still wouldn't really answer the question.

You're right about one thing.  The slower R/H is developed and the 
later they become a couple, the more likely they are to be still 
paired at the end of the series.  But one's long-term goals and one's 
short-term wishes sometimes conflict.  According to my perception, 
JKR has left us for three-years in a position of flirtus interruptus 
with Ron and Hermione, and I'm feeling impatient.  

GoF has more unresolved plot points than the first three books, by 
far:  the house-elf campaign, Hagrid's and Maxime's shared mission, 
Snape's secret task, Fudge's threat to Dumbledore, Rita's fate, etc.  
Ron and Hermione's unresolved situation is just one of many.  But, 
you know, we R/H shippers didn't choose to put them in that situation 
and feel all this UST -- JKR did that to us.  We're just responding 
to the stimulus she gave us.

Penny:
> Quite rare, even in fiction, even in the wizarding world, for that 
to work out as a long-term relationship.  

Angua again:
> And quite rare for a love triangle where two best friends fall for 
the same person to work out with a happy ending, too.  I say -- what 
the heck! -- let's get Ron and Hermione together and let them take 
their chances.  You can hope for them to be miserable together and 
break up, and I'll hope for them to live happily ever after.


Angua