SHIP: The Yule Brawl--The Problem With Reading R/H in GoF

[Penny Linsenmayer]

No: HPFGUIDX 50346

Hi --

Re, Hermione sputtering in indignation at Ron's churlish "trolls" comment, Angua argued:

<<<<I'm just saying that she responds awfully quickly and vehemently on 
this subject, and reacts by stalking out of the room.>>>>>>>

Again, I agree with Amy here.  This is Hermione responding to a sexist remark, and I've never seen anything personal in that scene at all.  So, you think if *Harry* had made that remark, Hermione wouldn't have reacted?  I think she would have.   

I originally said:

<<<<<But, more importantly, it wasn't Harry 
who had just behaved like an insensitive clod.  It's appropriate that 
her reaction is focused on Ron; Harry hasn't *said* anything.  If Ron 
had made his comment and then Harry had nodded or laughed or 
otherwise expressed agreement and *then* Hermione had focused her 
anger solely on Ron, you'd have a valid point.  But, you don't.>>>>> 

Angua again:
<<<<But, once Ron gave Hermione the opening, she certainly WAS curious 
about Ron's dating criteria.  She could have *easily* given the 
conversation a Harry-related turn, even by something as simple as 
saying "So basically, you're going to take the best-looking *girls* 
who'll have you," rather than "best-looking *girl* who'll have you.  
You may argue that she understands Harry and would never think HE 
would be as superficial as Ron, but, elsewhere, Hermione has no 
trouble bracketing the two of them together, as in her "*Boys*" 
remark in GoF Chapter 10 or her comments on their poor studying 
habits and continued failure to read "Hogwarts, a History.">>>>>>>>

Angua!  Harry has not said anything at all.  Why would Hermione bring him into the conversation?  She correctly observes that it is *Ron* who has just made the sexist remark.  This is not at all equivalent to both of them slouching on their study habits or both wanting to play Quidditch to release tension.  The situations are not even remotely equivalent.  In your examples, *both* boys have behaved like teenage boys.  In this case, why in the world would she insult poor Harry, who, for all we know, may agree far more with Hermione than with Ron on this point?  He has expressed absolutely no agreement with Ron, nor given any indication of assent or affirmation.  

Angua: <<<If Hermione *had* been feeling any anxiety over whether Harry found her attractive, it would have been perfectly natural for her to 
associate Ron's remark about "trolls" with Harry as well.  If she 
*had*, I think it would have been a nice little piece of evidence for 
the H/H side.  That she didn't, isn't in any way conclusive, but it 
is yet another missed opportunity.>>>>>>>>

I really, really think this boils down to Hermione reacting in a feminist way to Ron's sexist remark.  And, I don't think one would need to be "militantly feminist" to find his remark offensive.  I also don't think she's feeling anxiety of whether Ron or Harry finds her attractive or not.  Again, for all we know, she may already have her A-list date anyway, in which case, her self-esteem is likely in fine shape.    

>Angua again:
<<<<<I know.  But Hermione's taunts to Ron happen to also apply to 
Harry:  "All the good-looking ones taken?"  "I'm sure you'll find 
someone *somewhere* who'll have you."  There is really no way 
Hermione can be mean to Ron here, without unintentionally being mean 
to Harry as well, which I doubt she wants to do.  But she is 
concentrating so hard on her issues with Ron, that she doesn't seem 
to think of the effect on Harry.  She *is* Ron-centered in this scene.>>>>>

Yes, she *is* Ron-centered in this scene, but I don't think it's for the reasons you think.  I think she's amused no end that Mr. High-and-Mighty, I-don't-want-a-'Troll'-for-a-date!Ron is dateless.  At this point, she definitely has her date. 

Hermione's taunts do *not* apply to Harry.  They specifically hearken back to *Ron's* churlish comments about trolls and going with the best-looking girl who'd have him.  

Angua on the meaning behind Hermione's blushes:
<<<<Well it *could* mean that, of course, but one looks in vain for any 
signs, hints, or clues that it *does*.  She is shown talking to Ron, looking at Ron, avoiding Ron's eyes, saying "if you *really* want to know," etc. -- all hints that it is because *Ron* is there. There are no indications that it is because *Harry* is there.  None.>>>>>>

No, it's because she *knows* Ron likes her.  If she likes him back, then the blushes are explained as you would argue.  If she doesn't, then she is blushing because she knows that Ron likes her and it makes the situation uncomfortable.  She knows at some point, she'll have to deal with hurting one of her best friends.  

I said:
> I know the R/H fans think there is all this wonderful bantering R/H 
interaction happening off-page, but there's no canon on that.  

Angua again:
<<<<No -- we think that there is all this wonderful bantering R/H 
interaction happening ON-PAGE.  Well, we think it probably happens 
off-page as well (because why wouldn't it?) but what we see right 
there in canon is plenty enough to stoke our engines.  They banter 
beautifully, especially considering their young age.>>>>>>

LOL!  Well, like Laura, I'm afraid you might want to point up some of that witty banter for me, because I sure don't see it that way.  Looks like either petty bickering or out-and-out going-for-the-jugular arguing to me.  

Angua again:
<<<<<<<<Wait, that one doesn't make sense.  If it's Harry she cares about, 
why would Ron's opinion of her appearance cause her pain?  Ron's 
opinion of her appearance is relevant only if it is *Ron* she cares 
about.  Unless you think that Hermione thinks that Ron 
will "influence" Harry, while Malfoy wouldn't?>>>>>>>>>>

No, you misunderstand me.  Ron's comments are two-fold: (a) you aren't worth dating in your own right, and (b) you're being disloyal to Harry by dating Krum anyway.  It's (b) that causes her hurt, IMO.  And, that could be because it's Harry she really cares for.  

Angua again:
<<<<This is a possibility, but we can eliminate it by looking more 
closely at the text.  The time when Hermione looked as though Ron had 
slapped her and her voice quivered, Ron wasn't accusing her of 
*disloyalty*:

*****
..."He's just trying to get closer to Harry -- get inside information 
on him -- or get near enough to jinx him --"
*****

Ron might be said to be accusing Hermione of *gullibility* here, but 
not disloyalty.  In this scenario, Krum is the wicked deceitful 
Lothario and Hermione is the innocent dupe.  But the "Krum doesn't 
like you for yourself" implication is full-blast.>>>>>>>>>>

That's still disloyalty in my book.  But, it's also telling that Ron is hitting at one of her biggest worries, isn't it?  Harry's safety.  Um, hmmmmmmmm..........

<<<<<Also, we must take into account Hermione's hurt response to 
Ron's "troll" comment, his "you are a girl" comment, and his charge 
that she lied to Neville when she had a date.  In none of those cases 
is there any possibility that Hermione's reaction is because she has 
been accused of disloyalty to Harry.>>>>>>>>>>>

She wasn't "hurt" in any of those cases.  She was indignant and angry over the trolls comment, waspishly sarcastic over the "you are a girl" comment (a line that's among my favorites in fact) and *angry* (eyes flashing dangerously) over the "lying to Neville to get rid of him" comment.  There's no *hurt* here.  None.  

<<<<<<<<I think the conclusion that Hermione cares whether Ron thinks she is 
attractive is unmistakeable.>>>>>>>>

I, OTOH, think it's speculative at best.  


I said:
> No, the *point* is that Ron has a crush on Hermione.  Hermione now 
knows this.  Whether she reciprocates that feeling is not clear.  
This is December.  If she *knows* he has a crush on her *and* she 
reciprocates it, why doesn't she stop spending time with Krum and 
focus on trying to get Ron to grow up and face his feelings?  She 
goes from at least January - June (6 mths), knowing full well that 
her love interest likes her back ...... and she does nothing to 
encourage him to get a move on?  :::remembers being 14/15 and is 
confused by this scenario::::::::::

Angua again:
<<<<She knows that Ron has a crush on her, yes.  <snip>
And, possibly Hermione *does* stop spending time with Krum -- we 
don't know.  We don't *see* her choosing to be alone with Krum any 
more, except briefly to say goodbye.  She is not very encouraging to 
him at the Second Task.>>>>>>>>

He was encouraged enough to ask her to spend some time over the summer with him in Bulgaria.  :--)  But, you're right, she wasn't terribly encouraging, was she?  She was too busy cheering for Harry to notice him in fact.  <eg>

<<<<<There is apparently enough lacking in their 
relationship that Krum is worried enough to ask Harry if she has 
something going on with him (ironically guessing the wrong friend).>>>>>>>

He's worried because "Hermy-own-ninny" talks about *HARRY* very often.  We don't see Krum giving Ron a second glance, do we?  I don't find it too ironic that Krum was jealous of Harry if Hermione is talking about Harry all the time (and not Ron).  Seems pretty straight-forward to me.  

Angua again:
<<<<<But "Hermione likes Harry" *isn't* an answer to "does Hermione like 
Ron as more than a friend?"  As you point out, she might like both.  
So even if you were to show "proof" that Hermione likes Harry as more 
than a friend in GoF (and I would be astonished if you could), it 
still wouldn't really answer the question.>>>>>>>>>>

Sure it would.  If Hermoine likes Harry, then the implication is that she doesn't like Ron.  In any case, JKR *could* have given a straight-forward answer, *if* she viewed this as "obvious" or "straight-forward."  It would have been quite easy for her to say, "Yes, she does.  The answer is right there in Goblet of Fire."  But, she *didn't.*   She had the perfect opportunity to put the whole matter to rest, and she didn't.  Simple as that.

Penny




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