SHIP: Ron and Hermione do TOO banter!

[Ebony <selah_1977@yahoo.com>]

No: HPFGUIDX 50356

First of all, public thanks to Elkins for defending my original 
essay... you said all the things I was thinking, but far better.

And oh, if I could only get paid to debate SHIP all day...

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "anguaorc <fausts at a...>" 
<fausts at a...> wrote:
> One thing that is clear, though: there are very few "missed 
> opportunities" with R/H.

None of the opportunities you cite below can be construed as 
specifically R/H.  

> Ron has a crush on Fleur -- we look to see if Hermione betrays 
> jealousy, and -- sure enough -- there are signs that can easily be 
> read that way.

Here we go with that semi-colon stuff again.  And you know our take 
on it... Fleur kissed Harry too, so we just don't know.  

> Ron goes to the Yule Ball with Padma -- does Hermione have a 
problem > with that?  Well, we don't see anything at first, but then 
there is > the incident when Ron is bragging to Padma (who is 
suddenly a lot > more interested in him) after the Second Task, and 
Hermione rudely > shuts him up.
> 

How is this R/H?  I think if anything, it is Ron likes Hermione, 
which is something that the sane members of our side conceded in July 
2000.  Because if you get to mark that passage as Ron/Hermione, I get 
to mark the Honeydukes in December of PoA as H/H, because Harry shuts 
up Hermione's page and a half of arguments about why he shouldn't be 
at Hogsmeade with a single question and grin.  As I doubt that the 
R/H ship would accept any such reading, then a ship-specific 
interpretation upon such vaguely dubious grounds cannot be used in 
serious debate.

> Ron makes insensitive remarks about dating pretty girls -- does 
> Hermione mind?  Yes, very much.

Evidence, please?  I just don't see this in canon.  


> Ron makes an incredibly tactless remark, "You *are* a girl!" -- and 
> what does Hermione do?  She says, "Just because YOU haven't spotted 
> I'm a girl, Ron, doesn't mean nobody else has!"
> 
> I'm really hard-put to think of a time when Hermione COULD have 
> betrayed interest in Ron, and failed to.  

Re-read my essay.  If Hermione reciprocates Ron's interest as you 
posit, I am rather surprised that the text itself is so very 
ambiguous... a flaw that I expect will be corrected in OotP.

> When he went into the Veela 
> trance -- "Honestly" both times, with tutting and arm pulling.

What Veela trance?  Quote, please.  I distinctly remember Hermione 
pulling Harry's arm, but I admit freely that I am an incorrigible 
shipper and have a very selective memory.


> When he was in danger from the Second Task -- "I was so busy seeing 
> if you and Harry were okay..."

That is Hermione's later memory of the event when she and Ron are 
discussing the Skeeter article, an event that we fortunately saw 
played out on the page in detail.  (Everyone else, please look at my 
essay.  I gave you the full quote for a reason--one absolutely cannot 
examine isolated instances in the text without considering their 
textuality.  This is why religious sects have been founded on 
isolated verses of Scripture!)

I've already given you my reading of that scene in "Padfoot 
Returns".  Tomorrow after work (since it is 1 a.m. here and I've got 
some reading for grad class to do before sleeping), I can give the 
H/H reading of what happens at the end of the Second Task, for your 
dissection.  That is, if someone doesn't do it for me first.  :)

Anyway, it's a shortcut to say "you and Harry", as she was talking to 
Ron and Harry hadn't said anything. 


> When Harry asked her if she wouldn't rather go to Hogsmeade with 
Ron -
> - she blushed.

Are you sure she's blushing because she's being asked about Ron, or 
because Harry's implying that she's showing a difference between the 
two friends by spending a great deal of her time (that we see *in the 
text* with Harry?  ;-)

> When Ron's mother snubbed her -- she was hurt, but didn't say 
> anything.

And exactly what is a 14 year old girl, one who is usually respectful 
towards adults, to say regarding the inane foolishness of a grown 
woman?

> When Ron calls her a "scarlet woman" -- she giggled.

Won't even deal with this one.  It's in my original essay.

> When she heard that he had asked out another girl -- she was very 
> angry and taunted him.

See above.  My reading is in the original essay I posted, with 
context and full citations.

> With R/H, we see opportunities taken and romantic expectations 
> fulfilled.  With H/H, we see (much better) opportunities completely 
> missed and romantic expectations left empty and flapping.

But you haven't proven your point with textual evidence.  At all.

> I certainly don't think she would have looked as if he had slapped 
> her and spoken with a quivering voice, or blushed so deeply that 
she 
> was the same color as Parvati's robes, or stormed off.  We've 
> certainly never *seen* Hermione respond to Harry like that.

Has Harry ever given her a reason?

And all this was addressed in my original essay.  Getting very 
circular now, isn't it?
 
On to the example of on-page banter:

> "And you could ask your parents if they know who Flamel is," said 
> Ron. "It'd be safe to ask them." 
> 
> "Very safe, as they're both dentists," said Hermione. 

That's an R/H moment?  *laughs*  First of all, they're eleven.  
Second of all, I think it's more indicative that Hermione has a sense 
of humor than anything else... up until then in PS/SS, we hadn't seen 
that side of her... she was the bossy, no-nonsense one with a sense 
of playing by the rules.

If that's what you call banter, I can find H/H banter in that book as 
well.  ("I could sing!"  "Don't."  She laughs.)

More "banter":

> Speaking quietly so tht no one else would hear, Harry told the 
other 
> two about Snape's sudden, sinister desire to be a Quidditch 
referee. 
> 
> "Don't play," said Hermione at once. 
> 
> "Say you're ill," said Ron. 
> 
> "Pretend to break your leg," Hermione suggested. 
> 
> "Really break your leg," said Ron. 

As with above, that isn't an R/H conversation that Harry happens to 
overhear.  That's Ron and Hermione, being the angel and devil on 
Harry's shoulders. 

Isn't platonic friendship grand?  

More: 
> "So you mean the Stone's only safe as long as Quirrell stands up to 
> Snape?" said Hermione in alarm? 
> 
> "It'll be gone by next Tuesday," said Ron. 
> 


This is banter?  

Okay.

Then this means I get to take any old H/H exchange, and call it 
banter?

Cool!  No one's ever allowed me such latitude in these things before!


Next:
> All of the above were from PS/SS. Here is one from CoS, where 
> Ron "wins" again: 
> 
> Most Potente Potions?" she repeated suspiciously, trying to take 
the 
> note from Hermione; but Hermione wouldn't let go. 
> 
> "I was wondering if I could keep it," she said breathlessly. 
> 
> "Oh, come on," said Ron, wrenching it from her grasp and thrusting 
it 
> at Madam Pince. "We'll get you another autograph. Lockhart'll sign 
> anything if it stands still long enough." 

Oh, come on!  Be serious, please... this is indicative of Hermione's 
crush on Lockhart.  Where is the R/H banter here?


> From PoA: 
> 
> "No," said Hermione shortly. "Have either of you seen my copy of 
> Numerology and Gramatica?" 
> 
> "Oh, yeah, I borrowed it for a bit of bedtime reading," said Ron, 
but 
> very quietly. 

Ron joking a bit at Hermione.  That's throughout.  It also doesn't 
tell us anything new... does Hermione say anything back?  What's her 
reaction to this?  That is what I'm most interested in.


> And one where Hermione gets the funny line: 
> 
> "I went to see Professor McGonagall this morning, just before 
> breakfast. I've decided to drop Muggle Studies." 
> 
> "But you passed your exam with three hundred and twenty percent!" 
> said Ron. 
> 
> "I know," sighed Hermione, "but I can't stand another year like 
this 
> one...."<snip> 
> 
> "...Yeah, I've been thinking about them too," said Ron. "Harry, 
> you've got to come and stay with us. I'll fix it up with Mum and 
Dad, 
> then I'll call you. I know how to use the fellytone now --" 
> 
> "A telephone, Ron," said Hermione. "Honestly, *you* should take 
> Muggle Studies next year...." 

Is this pre-romantic "banter" or two friends chatting?  

You're almost making me want to look up a good literary definition 
of "banter"... almost.  As I think there is nothing romantic in any 
of the above on Hermione's part, I'm comfortable with not revising or 
defending my originally position further.

I'll concede your GoF quotes as banter of a sort--witty repartee.  
However, I do not believe they are indicative of romantic interest on 
Hermione's part, and for most of the book, not necessarily on Ron's 
either.  Their friendship is four year old now, they've gone through 
a lot together, and of course Ron and Hermione discourse more--
Harry's the quiet one.

> If JKR intends Hermione to end up with Harry, she should NOT be 
> giving her this kind of chemistry with Ron. 

And if JKR intends Hermione to end up with Ron, I want OotP to 
address many if not all of the points I raised in my essay.  Ron's 
got great moments, I agree, but the disquiet that some of us feel 
when it comes to him needs to be addressed.

However, I doubt that she will address the issues that I brought up.  
I'm no fool; ever since reading GoF I've predicted that Ron and 
Hermione will date in future books.  If I were a betting woman, my 
money would be on R/H... 

I also predict that's exactly when all the trouble will begin.

--Ebony, trying to catch up in the middle of a busy RL week