SHIP: Ron and Hermione do TOO banter!

[Penny Linsenmayer <pennylin@swbell.net>]

No: HPFGUIDX 50386

Hi all --

Before I get to Angua's latest points about "bantering," let me just 
say a huge "ME TOO" to Amy Z's post about how the ambiguity in the 
shipping is quite distinguishable from the other revelations (such as 
Quirrel or Crouch Jr., etc.).  I can't add much more than "me too," 
so I'll just put it here.  The shipping ambiguities will always be 
somewhat ambiguous.  It's not as though the characters can be shown 
to be in love since PS/SS .... they will change as they mature.  I 
also don't buy the notion that the ships have been "destined" since 
PS/SS (Ginny as the first girl Harry sees and Hermione's interaction 
with Ron over the smudged nose).  

>> Ron goes to the Yule Ball with Padma -- does Hermione have a 
problem 
> with that?  Well, we don't see anything at first, but then there is 
> the incident when Ron is bragging to Padma (who is suddenly a lot 
> more interested in him) after the Second Task, and Hermione rudely 
> shuts him up.

I doubt that this is because Ron is talking to Padma specifically.  
She was probably just tired of his theatric and highly-embellished 
rendering of the 2nd Task, and she called him on it (rightly).  

> 
> Ron makes insensitive remarks about dating pretty girls -- does 
> Hermione mind?  Yes, very much.

She'd mind if Harry had made the same comment, IMHO.

> 
> Ron makes an incredibly tactless remark, "You *are* a girl!" -- and 
> what does Hermione do?  She says, "Just because YOU haven't spotted 
> I'm a girl, Ron, doesn't mean nobody else has!"

Nope.  She says, "Well-spotted" (acidly).  The comment you quoted was 
actually in response to his accusation that she had lied to Neville 
to get out of a date with him. 
> 

> When he went into the Veela 
> trance -- "Honestly" both times, with tutting and arm pulling.

The arm-pulling relates to *Harry.*  
> 
> When Harry asked her if she wouldn't rather go to Hogsmeade with 
Ron -> - she blushed.

Yeah! You know why?  Because Harry caught on to her subterfuge.  She 
had hoped to force the boys into meeting and talking in Hogsmeade, 
but Harry was too smart for her.  
> 
> When Ron's mother snubbed her -- she was hurt, but didn't say 
> anything.

And this is R/H evidence, *How* precisely?  
> 
> When she heard that he had asked out another girl -- she was very 
> angry and taunted him.

She wasn't angry *because* he asked out another girl.  She wasn't 
actually even *angry* at that point.  *Amused.*  Highly, highly 
amused I'd say.  
> 
> > Do you think that she would have let Harry get away with saying 
> what Ron
> > said?  I really can't even begin to imagine that -- it would be 
> totally
> > uncharacteristic of her.
> 
> Angua: I certainly don't think she would have looked as if he had 
slapped> her and spoken with a quivering voice, or blushed so deeply 
that she was the same color as Parvati's robes, or stormed off.  
We've certainly never *seen* Hermione respond to Harry like that.

Well, your subjective judgment about "doubting" whether Hermione 
would have the exact same reaction is not terribly proveable.  
Fortunately for the H/H'ers, we don't have to see what it would be 
like if Harry and Hermione were mean to each other, but we can assume 
that Hermione would react similarly if he *was* mean to her.  
> 
On BANTERING, Angua again:

> Oh, I SO disagree, and I don't know any way to argue this except 
> quotation.  Here are some examples of what I consider to be 
> successful, two-sided bantering (sorry about length! -- but this is 
> probably the main reason we R/Hers so love our ship):

I'm actually very glad that you provided all these quotes, because in 
many cases, it can be easily shown to just be dialogue, not banter; 
in other cases, it's not 2-sided; and in almost all cases, it really 
doesn't qualify for what the dictionary says banter is (and doesn't, 
IMHO, support precursor to romance conclusions).  For 
reference, "banter" is "playful teasing" or "witty repartee" (which 
takes 2 people incidentally):

> 
> Here's one where Ron feeds Hermione the straight line: 
> 
> "And you could ask your parents if they know who Flamel is," said 
> Ron. "It'd be safe to ask them." 
> 
> "Very safe, as they're both dentists," said Hermione.

I don't think Ron meant to *feed* Hermione a line there.  I think he 
was *serious* .... and Hermione just happens to have a sense of 
humor.  
 
> Here's one where they do a quick-fire Pat and Mike routine: 
> 
> Speaking quietly so tht no one else would hear, Harry told the 
other 
> two about Snape's sudden, sinister desire to be a Quidditch 
referee. 
> 
> "Don't play," said Hermione at once. 
> 
> "Say you're ill," said Ron. 
> 
> "Pretend to break your leg," Hermione suggested. 
> 
> "Really break your leg," said Ron. 

They are talking to Harry ..... *and* it's a serious situation. You 
don't seriously consider this *banter*, do you?  
> 
> 
> Here's one where Hermione feeds Ron the straight line: 
> 
> "So you mean the Stone's only safe as long as Quirrell stands up to 
> Snape?" said Hermione in alarm? 
> 
> "It'll be gone by next Tuesday," said Ron.

This isn't even funny and it certainly isn't *teasing* or 
*playful.*  ::::looks puzzled::::: 

> 
> Most Potente Potions?" she repeated suspiciously, trying to take 
the 
> note from Hermione; but Hermione wouldn't let go. 
> 
> "I was wondering if I could keep it," she said breathlessly. 
> 
> "Oh, come on," said Ron, wrenching it from her grasp and thrusting 
it 
> at Madam Pince. "We'll get you another autograph. Lockhart'll sign 
> anything if it stands still long enough." 

Again, this is one-sided funny. Ron's line *is* funny, but Hermione 
is not engaging in repartee here.  She's serious about wanting to 
hang on to that note.  <g>  I'd give this one a thumbs-down on the 
old banter-meter too.

> 
> "No," said Hermione shortly. "Have either of you seen my copy of 
> Numerology and Gramatica?" 
> 
> "Oh, yeah, I borrowed it for a bit of bedtime reading," said Ron, 
but very quietly. 

Hermione didn't even *hear* this line, let alone respond back with a 
witty retort.  She was quite stressed at the time.  If anything, it's 
Ron and Harry engaging in banter here.  :--) 
> 
> "I went to see Professor McGonagall this morning, just before 
> breakfast. I've decided to drop Muggle Studies." 
> 
> "But you passed your exam with three hundred and twenty percent!" 
> said Ron. 
> 
> "I know," sighed Hermione, "but I can't stand another year like 
this 
> one...."<snip> 
> 
> "...Yeah, I've been thinking about them too," said Ron. "Harry, 
> you've got to come and stay with us. I'll fix it up with Mum and 
Dad, 
> then I'll call you. I know how to use the fellytone now --" 
> 
> "A telephone, Ron," said Hermione. "Honestly, *you* should take 
> Muggle Studies next year...." 

Again, Hermione's line is *funny* ..... but it's not exactly rapid-
fire banter between the two of them, is it?  Looks more like 
*dialogue* to me, with Hermione getting a funny line.  
> 
> 
> "Come off it," said Ron, starting to laugh. "Durmstrang's got to be 
> about the same size as Hogwarts -- how are you going to hide a 
great 
> big castle?" 
> 
> "But Hogwarts is hidden," said Hermione, in surprise. "Everyone 
knows 
> that... well, everyone who's read Hogwarts, A History, anyway." 
> 
> "Just you, then," said Ron. 

This might be "banter" if Hermione came back with a witty retort or 
had smiled or "grinned guiltily" (as she does when she and Harry 
engage in some banter over her helping him solve the First Task).  
But as it stands, I'd not say this qualifies either.  
> 
 
> Here's a nice one: 
> 
> "Well, at least the skrewts are small," said Ron as they made their 
> way back up to the castle for lunch an hour later. 
> 
> "They are now," said Hermione in an exasperated voice, "but once 
> Hagrid's found out what they eat, I expect they'll be six feet 
long." 
> 
> "Well, that won't matter if they turn out to cure seasickness or 
> something, will it?" said Ron, grinning slyly at her. 

> "You know perfectly well I only said that to shut Malfoy up," said 
> Hermione. "As a matter of fact I think he's right. The best thing 
to > do would be to stamp on the lot of them before they start 
attacking us all." 

Now, *this* is banter.  There's rapid-fire back-and-forth, teasing of 
each other.  The "toast" example I snipped off is also reasonably 
close to what I would call banter.  
> 
> "Hello," she said, "I've just finished!" 
> 
> "So have I!" said Ron triumphantly, throwing down his quill. 
> 
> Hermione sat down, laid the things she was carrying in an empty 
> armchair, and pulled Ron's predictions toward her. 
> 
> "Not going to have a very good month, are you?" she said 
sardonically 
> as Crookshanks curled up in her lap. 
> 
> "Ah well, at least I'm forewarned," Ron yawned. 
> 
> "You seem to be drowning twice," said Hermione. 
> 
> "Oh am I?" said Ron, peering down at his predictions. "I'd better 
> change one of them to getting trampled by a rampaging hippogriff." 
> 
> "Don't you think it's a bit obvious you've made these up?" said 
> Hermione. 
> 
> "How dare you! said Ron, in mock outrage. "We've been working like 
> house-elves here!" 
> 
> Hermione raised her eyebrows. 
> 
> "It's just an expression!" said Ron hastily. 

I think this one starts off as a bit of banter, but the "working like 
house elves" comment is a very bigoted statement, and I'm not so sure 
that Hermione completely buys Ron's hasty retreat.  
> 
I snipped off the SPEW example, as I think that's just plain old 
dialogue myself.  

> If JKR intends Hermione to end up with Harry, she should NOT be 
> giving her this kind of chemistry with Ron.

If she intends Hermione to end up with Ron, she probably ought to cut 
back a bit on the negative descriptive words she uses for their 
interaction.  If she continues to stress words 
like  "savagely," "impatiently," "sputtered 
indignantly," "acidly," "coldly," "angrily," etc., she might give us 
the impression that Ron and Hermione really don't interact very 
positively during their "bantering."

I agree with Ebony -- if this is the standard for "bantering," then 
we'll be happy to provide several examples of Harry and Hermione 
interaction that would qualify. 

Penny