SHIP: That Darned Kiss--The Problem With Reading R/H in GoF

[anguaorc <fausts@attglobal.net>]

No: HPFGUIDX 50398

I have always suspected that it would be this way.  Posting an 
opinion on this list is very much like cutting a head off a hydra.  I 
tried to respond to everyone's objections, but I missed this one:

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Penny Linsenmayer 
<pennylin at s...> wrote:
> That is a good point, actually.  OTOH, as you point out, she knows 
it isn't true and that Harry doesn't want it to be true, so I can see 
where her behavior is *also* consistent with her having a secret 
crush on him but knowing that it's her little secret.    

Yes it is, if Hermione has a very great ability to control her 
emotions and her author does not wish to allow us to know what she is 
thinking.  JKR could easily have given us some hint of Hermione's 
feelings without letting Harry know.  Instead, this is just one of 
many missed opportunities for foreshadowing H/H.
 
Penny:
> I do have a question for Angua and other R/H'ers at this juncture 
actually.  JKR has made it "hit-you-over-the-head-with-a-baseball-
bat" obvious that Ron likes Hermione.  Again, even Clueless!Harry 
understands this.  If she was definitely going for R/H, why hasn't 
she taken the same approach with Hermione?  Might it be because it's 
not going to be an easy road to end up R/H?  If it was obvious that 
they both liked each other, there'd be no tension or conflict, yes?  
So, there will be some tension or conflict in this before it all gets 
resolved.  

Me:
Yes.  Obviously, one doesn't want Ron or Hermione getting together 
too fast or too easily -- where would be the fun in that?  She needed 
to create a situation that generates maximum frustration and hurt 
feelings on both sides.  This is the situation as I see it:

Ron likes Hermione and shows it, but doesn't realize it (yet).

Hermione likes Ron and realizes it, but doesn't show it (much).

This allows Hermione to be hurt, frustrated, and impatient over Ron's 
stupidity and allows Ron a sort of baffled anger and frustration, 
unmitigated by any sign of Hermione's affections.


It's good stuff, and, if it weren't for my involvement in shipping 
wars, I'd love to see it prolonged for quite a while.

Penny:
> That's the other thing I don't get about the R/H position.  JKR had 
an unhappy marriage with lots of "sparks" and arguments and tension.  
It ended badly.  I'm not so sure that "tension and sparks" is really 
her cup of tea.  

Me:
I'm queasy about even bringing up JKR's personal life, but I'll just 
dip my toe into it.  As best I can tell, we know of five 
relationships in JKR's life which might influence her decisions:

1 - Her parents' marriage, which had "sparks" and arguments, and was 
(mostly) happy.

2 - Her friendship with Sean Harris, Ron's inadvertent model, which I 
have never heard had either "sparks" or arguments, and which she 
still treasures today.

3 - Her longtime relationship with the boyfriend she lived with after 
college, which we know contained at least one "blazing row," and 
which she ended because she "came to see they didn't have a future 
together."

4 - Her first marriage, which is said to have been EXTREMELY sparky 
and argumentative, and which ended very badly.

5 - Her current marriage, about which I personally know nothing at 
all.


For at least two relationships, she seems to have drawn to, err, 
tempestuousness.  Whether the fact that they failed has led her to 
conclude that tempestuousness is bad, whether she still finds 
tempestuousness romantic, but has concluded that TOO MUCH of it is 
bad, or whether she has a psychological need to re-write a more 
successful version of her own past...  frankly, I have no idea.  The 
*only* meaningful clue I can find in her works is that the Weasley 
marriage appears to be both tempestuous and successful.

The Dursley marriage appears to be calm and successful, but I don't 
regard that as a meaningful clue.

Penny:
>But, more importantly, since she's said that she wants to 
realistically depict these kids and their confrontation with "real" 
evil (not sugar-coated) and have them age believably, do you really 
think she'd want to send a message that teenage romance works out to 
be happily ever-after?  In real life, it just doesn't.    

This argument has no resonance with me.  Possibly this is because I 
am happily married to my teenage romance, twenty-two years later.  
But I can't imagine JKR saying to herself, "now, let's see, I must 
make sure that nobody who starts dating at fifteen is still together 
at the end of the series -- otherwise it'll be unrealistic!"  I 
reiterate -- as we R/Hers have said approximately a million times -- 
Ron's and Hermione's relationship is just a subplot.  It is Harry's 
relationships which will set the tone for the series.

Penny:
> And, back to that JKR chat where it was asked if Hermione liked Ron 
as more than a friend.  If it's so *obvious,* why did JKR phrase her 
answer that way?  When it's obvious and/or has no implications for a 
later plot, JKR answers chat questions with straight-forward answers 
("In Gryffindor, naturally!" as one example when asked about Hagrid's 
house ... and Lily's house).  

Me:
I don't know.  Possible reasons:

1 - She might have thought the questioner had not yet read GoF (since 
she didn't know the obvious) or that some of the chat participants 
hadn't, and didn't want to spoil it.

2 - She might have been annoyed or impatience at being asked a 
question to which the books already supplied the answer, and answered 
like a teacher, "go look it up for yourself."

3 - She might be incorrigibly obscure and cryptic, and congenitally 
unable to give a straight answer when an ambiguous one would be much 
more fun.

Whatever the reason, my observation of JKR tells me that, however 
cagey she might be, she tells the truth.  If she says the answer is 
in GoF, she means that the answer is in GoF.
 
Penny:
> Back to all these blushes, Angua plowed on:
> 
> <<<<<The idea that she's blushing for Krum's sake seems very far-
fetched 
> to me.  She wasn't blushing at the second task, when Krum actually 
> invited her to Bulgaria and told her he'd never felt like this 
before.>>>>
> 
> How do you know?  You weren't there.  Neither was I.  Neither was 
Harry.  :--)

Harry was, at a distance:

*****
Harry could see Madam Pomfrey fussing over Hermione, Krum, Cedric, 
and Cho, all of whom were wrapped in thick blankets.
*****

And Harry was certainly there afterwards:

*****
She (Madam Pomfrey) seized Harry and pulled him over to Hermione and 
the others...
*****

Sure, Krum could have said all this, Hermione blushed, and the blush 
faded, before Harry got there.  But if JKR had wanted to show 
Hermione blushing, there was an opportunity for Harry to see it.
 
Penny:
> Actually, you might avoid a friend's eye if you knew he had 
romantic feelings for you, whether you return those feelings or not.  
If she *does* return his feelings, then your analysis is fine.  If 
she doesn't, she could just as easily be avoiding his eye because it 
makes her uncomfortable knowing how he feels and knowing that 
*eventually* she'll have to let him down.  

*You* might.  I wouldn't.  I would look him straight in the eye and 
tell him about Krum, giving him the bad news as soon as possible.  I 
would *never* act like Hermione does, and refuse to tell him whether 
or not I had accepted Krum's invitation, leaving him in suspense for 
months.  If Hermione knows Ron likes her and doesn't like him, I 
think that is cruel.  

Of course, if she likes him and is frustrated because he won't admit 
he likes her, I don't think it's cruel at all, but perfectly 
understandable.  :)

Angua before:
> <<<<<You can't see me, but I'm rolling my eyes like crazy. Isn't it 
fun 
> making up imaginary evidence?  We R/H shippers like to imagine the 
> touching scenes when Hermione woke Ron up after the chess game and 
> when Ron was there as Hermione woke up from being Petrified, but we 
> don't usually unleash our sappy fantasies onto the unsuspecting 
> general public.  I wish you would use the same restraint.>>>>>>>>>

Penny: 
> Ron was there when Hermione woke up?  Is that canon?  I think not.

Here is the canon on which we base our silly, fluffy fantasies (CoS 
Ch. 18, p. 243-4 British children's version):

*****
"Miss Weasley should go up to the hospital wing straight away," 
Dumbledore interrupted in a firm voice....  ..."You will find that 
Madam Pomfrey is still awake.  She's just giving out the Mandrake 
juice -- I daresay the Basilisk's victims will be waking up any 
moment."

"So Hermione's OK!" said Ron brightly.

<snip a little dialogue -- approximately 5 minutes>

"Would you mind taking Professor Lockhart up to the hospital wing, 
too?" Dumbledore said to Ron.  "I'd like a few more words with 
Harry..."
*****

We don't know whether Ron actually got there in time to see Hermione 
flutter back to life, but he certainly would have seen and talked to 
her in the hospital wing.

Penny:
> Looks like black and white text to me too.  But, of course, what I 
see in that text is two teenage friends having a nice time together.  
It may or may not be a precursor to romance.  

Me:
I agree.  Having a nice time together is a *necessary* but not a 
*sufficient* condition for romance.  I was simply trying to show that 
for R/H, this condition has been met.

The problem with H/H is that it's not at all clear that Harry and 
Hermione *ever* have a nice time together without Ron.  After an 
exhaustive search of all four books, this is the best I've ever been 
able to find:

- They both laugh in glee when Draco gets a detention during the 
Norbert send-off.
- Hermione is proud and delighted when Harry finally learns to Summon.
- Harry forces Hermione to silently admit, with a guilty grin, that 
her helping him in the First Task was against the rules.
- They exchange a grin at Krum's mangling of Hermione's name at the 
Yule Ball.

To me, this is a pitiful total after four years of being very close 
friends.  It is *much* easier than this to see that Ron and Hermione 
have nice times alone together, and as for Ron and Harry -- I could 
list examples enough to fill up a Digest.  This actually causes me to 
conclude that -- though Harry and Hermione can be very good friends 
as long they have Ron around to keep things light and humorous -- 
alone together, they're apparently too serious or too ill-suited to 
enjoy each other's company. Since I value laughter and good 
fellowship VERY highly in a relationship, this would have to change 
before I could be happy with an H/H matchup.


Angua