[HPforGrownups] Evil!Lupin revisited (yes, again) WAS: Re: Real characters & persuasive argument

[Maria Kirilenko]

No: HPFGUIDX 50456


Pippin wrote:

>>I think there are two different styles being used on the list, which 
results in confusion or unfulfilled expectations. One is a sort of 
essay question response, as in "Lupin is Evil. Discuss" in which 
the poster would marshall both pros and cons before drawing a  
conclusion. 

>>The other one is like a position paper for a debate: "Resolved: 
Lupin is Evil --The argument against," which would present only 
one side. The poster's expectation would be that listees who 
disagree would respond with their own position, and the original 
poster could then offer a rebuttal.>>

Hi, Pippin!

I didn't really understand what kind of post this one was, but you conveniently (for me <g>) touched upon the Lupin thread, and since I recently got some new ideas about Lupin, I'm enthusiastically seizing the opportunity. I hope you haven't started to hate this subject yet.

<<I don't think the choice of discussion style has anything to do 
with the wait for OoP, or the desire to "flatten" the characters. For 
my part, ESE Lupin is not an attempt to flatten him...rather the 
reverse.>>

I did not read your ESE Lupin theory as flattening. 

Going off in another direction, it was really interesting, but IMO many of the pro-evil!Lupin in your original theory are debatable (and I believe many people have discussed them).

<< I was unsatisfied with the characterization and 
development of Lupin in several respects. 

Why was the reason he didn't take his potion and conveniently 
left the activated map in his office not addressed in the text>>

It is addressed in the text. Scholastic paperback, p. 347 (Cat, Rat and Dog) says:

------------------------------------------------------

"The important thing is, I was watching it carefully this
evening, because I had an idea that you, Ron, and Hermione might try
and sneak out of the castle to visit Hagrid before his hippogriff
was executed. And I was right, wasn't I"

    He had started to pace up and down, looking at them. Little
patches of dust rose at his feet.

    "You might have been wearing your father's old cloak, Harry--"

    "How d'you know about the cloak?"

    "The number of times I saw James disappearing under it...,"
said Lupin, waving an impatient hand again. "The point is, even
if you're wearing an Invisibility Cloak, you still show up on the
Marauder's Map. I watched you cross the grounds and enter Hagrid's
hut. Twenty minutes later, you left Hagrid, and set off back toward
the castle. But you were now accompanied by somebody else."

    "What?" said Harry. "No, we weren't!"

    I couldn't believe my eyes," said Lupin, still pacing,
and ignoring Harry's interruption. "I thought the map must be
malfunctioning. How could he be with you?" "No one was with
us!" said Harry.

    "And then I saw another dot, moving fast toward you, labeled
Sirius Black.... I saw him collide with you; I watched as he pulled
two of you into the Whomping Willow --"

-----------------------------------------------------

IMO this implies that Lupin was so shocked that he forgot about everything. Of course, if one doesn't trust Lupin, one doesn't have to trust his words, but the main thing is that a reason is given. Why would JKR offer a reason for someone's actions twice? Yes, I'd feel a lot more comfortable if I got Dumbledore's opinion on everything (although after GoF I began to doubt Dumbledore's opinion too), but I don't think we can expect such a luxury. <g>


>>When Trelawney's voice goes from misty to crisp, we 
understand that the mistiness is an act. What are we to make of 
it  that Lupin's voice alters suddenly from calm to steely, a steely 
voice that Harry has never heard from him before?>>

Are you implying that since Trelawney's voice changed and we understood her mistiness was an act, then Lupin's change of tone means that his softness was an act too? I'm not sure we can infer that. Why should JKR write all her characters in the same manner?

I make of it Lupin's wish to stop the pointless arguing that was going on and get on with the show. Remember, they haven't even revealed Pettigrew yet. 

The 'steely note' IMO adds an immense amount of depth to Lupin's character. Before that he was very soft-spoken, although we were given a clue that he might not be all that soft when he spoke to Harry about his jolly Hogsmeade adventures. In the Shrieking Shack we become aware that he is capable of being harsh too.

It actually reminded me more of Dumbledore's transformation in GoF, when he rescued Harry from Crouch!Moody. Harry noticed an expression of fury on Dumbledore's face and understood why Voldemort was afraid of him. So, does that mean that all the time Dumbledore was soft he was faking it? I think not.

>>Why does Rowling make Lupin and Sirius so similar?

I, OTOH, think that she makes them very different, and I believe some people, including myself, have addressed this point.

>>Those were all things that bothered me before I came up with 
the ESE theory.<<

Oh. OK. So does that mean they don't bother you anymore, or do they still? If they don't you can just ignore what I said.

>>I admit I presented it rather gleefully, and in a 
one sided way, but the glee came from solving one of Rowling's 
mysteries in advance (I think!), not "trashing" the character.<<

I totally understand you. I know it feels really cool to develop an unusual theory (although your theories are much more formidable than mine are <g>), so a certain amount of glee is to be expected.

But this word, "trashing," really bothers me. I realize that when it was first brought up it wasn't used in its most unnice sense, but it has such a negative connotation (my big thick Webster's defines the verb to trash as considering ignorant or contemptible). I haven't been on this list for very long, but I've *never* seen anyone trash a character.


>>As for the one-sidedness, there are  plenty of posts in which one 
can read what a good person Lupin is, and I did invite other 
people to present the opposing views.>>

You mean support Evil!Lupin? Really, I don't know why no one did. On second thought, maybe I do. <g>

>> I think they can do a much 
better job than me , since I have become so convinced that I 
doubt I could present the other side fairly. For example, I had to 
edit the line above, because I put "paragon of virtue" instead of 
"good person" <g> >>>

That's mean! No one was accusing Lupin of being a paragon of virtue <g>. Besides, why does being convinced of something hinder your ability to present the other side fairly? Is it because you think you won't pay attention to just arguments against your theory because you are so sure that Lupin is ESE?

I'm not even sure where this thread stands right now, but I do have some new ideas and I'd appreciate it if anyone comments on them.

Now (heh-heh-heh <g>), the most weighty argument against Lupin is that he committed perfidy, or whatever we're calling it.

Idea #1. Lupin is accused of perfidy because he chose not to disclose certain information about Sirius' abilities and Hogwarts that could basically insure the capture of Sirius Black. OTOH, Crouch Sr. is accused of giving his own son to the dementors. So, Lupin should have turned his former best friend in, and Crouch should not have done the same for his former favourite son? I don't see the logic here.

Idea #2. Lupin tells two things to Harry during their conversation in "The Patronus." 

----------------------------------------------------------

"They call it the Dementor's Kiss," said Lupin, with a slightly
twisted smile. "It's what dementors do to those they wish to destroy
utterly. I suppose there must be some kind of mouth under there,
because they clamp their jaws upon the mouth of the victim and --
and suck out his soul."  ~~~~~~~THING 1~~~~~~~~~~~

    Harry accidentally spat out a bit of butterbeer.

    "What -- they kill --?"

    "Oh no," said Lupin. "Much worse than that. You can exist
without your soul, you know, as long as your brain and heart are
still working. But you'll have no sense of self anymore, no memory,
no. .. anything. There's no chance at all of recovery. You'll just
exist. As an empty shell. And your soul is gone forever... lost."

Lupin drank a little more butterbeer, then said, "It's the
fate that awaits Sirius Black. <snip>" ~~~~~~~~THING 2~~~~~~

--------------------------------------------------------


A little later Lupin says: "Do you really think anyone deserves that?" 

Forgive me if I'm being presumptuous, but I think the Lupin's own opinion is "No." Firstly, when people phrase their words that way they usually mean 'no,' and secondly, I don't think Lupin, being deprived of his soul once a month, would wish to inflict that upon anyone. True, it's not the same thing, but there are similarities IMO. Argue with me if you will.

Then, let me remind you of Lupin's words to Pettigrew: "if Voldemort didn't kill you, we would."

I think that part of Lupin's reasons for not telling Dumbledore about the map or the Animagi stuff was because he felt the punishment intended for Sirius was too harsh than what he deserved. He obviously (or not-so-obviously, since it's taken me 2 years to think of this) feels that death must be the punishment for death (or at least in MWPP's case) - if he thought that death wasn't enough, he would have led Pettigrew straight to the Dementors! 

So, these were the things I wanted to share, and don't mind me if they were brought up before.

I'll be very happy if Pippin answers me, too.

Best regards,

Maria,

anxiously waiting for criticism.



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