SHIP: Ron and Hermione do TOO banter! - Reply to Ebony

[anguaorc <fausts@attglobal.net>]

No: HPFGUIDX 50466

Angua wrote:
> > One thing that is clear, though: there are very few "missed 
> > opportunities" with R/H.

Ebony wrote:
> None of the opportunities you cite below can be construed as 
> specifically R/H.  

Angua again:
Of course they *can* be construed that way!  I think what you mean to 
say is that none of them *must* be construed that way.  

I wasn't arguing that they must.  I was saying that -- in the event 
that the books do end up R/H -- we won't be able to look back and 
find a lot of places that JKR *failed* to foreshadow it.  In almost 
every possible place where an R/H foreshadowing might exist, one does 
exist, though most of them are very faint and subtle indeed, and 
almost all of them have a possible alternate explanation.

What I am doing here is looking at authorial intent.  If JKR, as I 
believe, has planned R/H all along, we ought to see some sly 
authorial references to it throughout the four books.  Which, indeed, 
we find.

Angua:
> > Ron has a crush on Fleur -- we look to see if Hermione betrays 
> > jealousy, and -- sure enough -- there are signs that can easily 
be 
> > read that way.

Ebony:
> Here we go with that semi-colon stuff again.  And you know our take 
> on it... Fleur kissed Harry too, so we just don't know.  

Of course.  I wasn't offering "proof" here.  However, one huge H/H 
opportunity was missed.  In each case, Fleur shows interest in Harry, 
then in Ron, and *then* Hermione scowls or looks furious.  If only 
JKR had shown Hermione scowling and looking furious after Harry and 
before Ron, we would have known it was for Harry.  But she writes 
them like this:

*****
Fleur swooped down on him too and kissed him.  Hermione looked simply 
furious.
*****

and

*****
Fleur smiled at him; Hermione scowled.
*****

The way she puts the Ron/Fleur interaction and the Hermione reaction 
in such pointedly close proximity leaves us with only two possible 
interpretations.  Either JKR is trying to tell that Hermione scowls 
because of Ron, or JKR is trying to *fool us into thinking* that 
Hermione scowls because of Ron.  It is either a clue, or a trick.  I, 
of course, being a simple-minded R/Her, think it is a clue.

Angua:
> > Ron goes to the Yule Ball with Padma -- does Hermione have a 
> problem > with that?  Well, we don't see anything at first, but 
then 
> there is > the incident when Ron is bragging to Padma (who is 
> suddenly a lot > more interested in him) after the Second Task, and 
> Hermione rudely > shuts him up.
> > 
Ebony: 
> How is this R/H?  I think if anything, it is Ron likes Hermione, 
> which is something that the sane members of our side conceded in 
July 
> 2000.  Because if you get to mark that passage as Ron/Hermione, I 
get 
> to mark the Honeydukes in December of PoA as H/H, because Harry 
shuts 
> up Hermione's page and a half of arguments about why he shouldn't 
be 
> at Hogsmeade with a single question and grin.  As I doubt that the 
> R/H ship would accept any such reading, then a ship-specific 
> interpretation upon such vaguely dubious grounds cannot be used in 
> serious debate.

Angua again:
I am afraid you have misunderstood me.  I was asking myself if there 
is any indication that Hermione considers Padma as a rival, or is 
displeased by the idea of her paying attention to Ron.  I found that 
yes, indeed, there is such an indication, though, as for many other 
of my examples, it is both subtle and ambiguous.  But JKR didn't put 
that bit about "Padma was paying a lot more attention to Ron now" in 
there for no reason.

And about the time when Harry shuts Hermione up with a single 
question and a grin -- forgive me, but I was under the impression 
that that is already one of your prime bits of H/H "evidence."

Angua:
> > Ron makes insensitive remarks about dating pretty girls -- does 
> > Hermione mind?  Yes, very much.

Ebony: 
> Evidence, please?  I just don't see this in canon.  

Angua again:
I am referring to the much-discussed trolls, etc. conversations.

Angua:
> > When he went into the Veela 
> > trance -- "Honestly" both times, with tutting and arm pulling.

Ebony:
> What Veela trance?  Quote, please.  I distinctly remember Hermione 
> pulling Harry's arm, but I admit freely that I am an incorrigible 
> shipper and have a very selective memory.

Angua again:
It appears you are remembering Ron's first Veela trance, and not his 
second one (GoF Ch. 9):

*****
"*Honestly!*" said Hermione, and she and Harry grabbed Ron firmly by 
the arms..."
*****

Please remember that I am NOT offering this as proof that Hermione 
LURVES Ron.  What I am saying is that every time that Ron shows 
interest in the Veelas, without fail, irritation from Hermione is 
also shown.  I realize that this happens to be true of Harry, too, 
when it comes to Veelas.  However, it is not true of Harry slopping 
water on himself because of Cho, for instance, or Harry being kissed 
by Angelina, Katie, and Alicia, or Harry dancing with Parvati.

My only thesis here is:  opportunities to foreshadow H/H are mostly 
missed and very rarely fulfilled, while opportunities to foreshadow 
R/H are mostly fulfilled and very rarely missed.  There *are* a 
couple of opportunities where R/H *could* have been foreshadowed and 
isn't, but, as a faithful R/H debater, I don't propose to point them 
out to you.  :)

Angua:
> > When he was in danger from the Second Task -- "I was so busy 
seeing 
> > if you and Harry were okay..."

Ebony: 
> That is Hermione's later memory of the event when she and Ron are 
> discussing the Skeeter article, an event that we fortunately saw 
> played out on the page in detail.  (Everyone else, please look at 
my 
> essay.  I gave you the full quote for a reason--one absolutely 
cannot 
> examine isolated instances in the text without considering their 
> textuality.  This is why religious sects have been founded on 
> isolated verses of Scripture!)

Angua again:
I am not proposing to found a religious sect here -- I am simply 
pointing out another opportunity which was NOT missed.  I am aware 
that it was, in this case, not missed for Harry either.

Angua:
> > When Harry asked her if she wouldn't rather go to Hogsmeade with 
> Ron -
> > - she blushed.

Ebony:
> Are you sure she's blushing because she's being asked about Ron, or 
> because Harry's implying that she's showing a difference between 
the 
> two friends by spending a great deal of her time (that we see *in 
the 
> text* with Harry?  ;-)

Angua again:
No, I believe that she blushed because Harry caught her in 
subterfuge.  I'm just saying -- when R/H happens and we look back for 
foreshadowing, we will see that JKR didn't miss a beat.  She put it 
EVERYWHERE.  Even when it's just a sly reference, and doesn't really 
mean anything.

Ebony:
> And all this was addressed in my original essay.  Getting very 
> circular now, isn't it?

Angua:
Umm, no.  I was making a *different* point, not really related to 
your essay.  My point is an outgrowth of MY observation that many, 
many chances are missed where JKR *could* have foreshadowed H/H.  
Naturally, this led me look to see if the same thing was true of 
R/H.  I discovered that it *wasn't*, and was eager to share my 
findings with you lovely people.  I consider it useful evidence of 
author intention.  You may consider it worthless nonsense, and I 
presume you do.  To each her own.

Ebony:
> On to the example of on-page banter:
> 
> > "And you could ask your parents if they know who Flamel is," said 
> > Ron. "It'd be safe to ask them." 
> > 
> > "Very safe, as they're both dentists," said Hermione. 
> 
> That's an R/H moment?  *laughs*  First of all, they're eleven.  

No, I wasn't citing it as an R/H moment.  I was citing it as a 
bantering moment, specifically to counter Laura Ingalls Huntley's 
claim in #50332 that:

******
Banter? *Banter*?! Calling what Hermione and Ron do "banter" is an 
insult
to a very fine art. They bicker. They out-and-out fight. They insult 
one
another. They do not banter. To banter is to tease. To make witty
semi-clawed comments. To engage in playful mock-sparring. They do 
nothing
of the sort. Occasionally Ron will say something mean-but-humorous 
that is
meant to rile her (which can be a lead-in to banter), but I cannot 
recall
Hermione reacting with anything but irritation or anger (again, not
bantering) -- she does not play back. Mostly, however, he's just being
cluelessly insensitive.
******

My examples were meant to show -1- that Hermione and Ron are NOT "an 
insult to a very fine art" and -2- that Hermione DOES "play back."

Ebony:
> If that's what you call banter, I can find H/H banter in that book 
as 
> well.  ("I could sing!"  "Don't."  She laughs.)

Yes, that's the only example I've found, too.  ;)

Ebony:
> I'll concede your GoF quotes as banter of a sort--witty repartee.  
> However, I do not believe they are indicative of romantic interest 
on 
> Hermione's part, and for most of the book, not necessarily on Ron's 
> either.  

I was not claiming them as indicative of romantic interest.  I was 
claiming that they're funny.  If witty bantering by itself was a 
proof of romantic interest, we would all be Fred/George shippers, 
because they do it far better than anyone else.

I do think, however, that the fact that JKR has set Ron and Hermione 
up as a sort of comedy duo means something in terms of her intentions 
toward their future pairing.  It is just one of many, many hints that 
we have.


Angua, now waaaaaay behind