Gringotts Bank

[Ali <Ali@zymurgy.org>]

No: HPFGUIDX 50580

Scott wrote:

<<< I'm not a lawyer either, but I think that if you're convicted of
"racketerring activity," your assets can be siezed under RICO 
("RACKETEER INFLUENCED AND CORRUPT ORGANIZATIONS") laws, which are 
mainly in place to fight organized crime, but I believe the US 
government has a tendency to be, uh, flexible with this law. From 
what I've seen, "racketeering activity" is somewhat broad:

<snip list of racketeering activity>

Maybe someone who IS a lawyer could help us out. Of course, this is 
only in the US. I've not the slighest idea if it's similar in the UK. 
But under US law, I could easily see Sirius's assets being seized (he 
was imprisoned without "trial"), but really, who knows what the MoM 
is thinking. It's probably not as simple.>>>

OK, I have a Law degree, and I was a bank manager, so I know quite a 
lot about English Banking Law. If the WW follows England, than 
Sirius' bank account would not ordinarily be frozen, neither would 
the MoM have any right to information about it. The Duty of 
Confidentiality is of vital importance in the relationship between 
bank and client. This would only be breached for things like money 
laundering – eg for drugs and terrorism, and what is 
called "Compulsion of Law". This would mean that the MoM obtained an 
order (or just ordered, depending on how their legal system works) 
for Gringott's to release information. You would think that they 
might have done this in an effort to track Sirius' movements as a 
fugitive, but it seems that it was not done.

There is no evidence that the MoM does have a legal and political 
system strong enough to control Gringotts bank but if it does not, we 
are presented with a WW economy radically driven from our own state 
directed, market economy in which the Demand/Supply economics is 
affected by government policy, but I digress
... 

<<Or, maybe it's too simple; the vault can only be opened with the 
key, so it would be impossible to seize anyone's funds unless you 
managed to get their key. *sigh* I suppose JKR only knows for sure.>>

Oh course, it's JKR's world, but if it is as simple as keyholding, 
where is Sirius' key when his funds are withdrawn? Does an Owl Order 
contain a key? In fact, Sirius doesn't even say he used an Owl Order, 
all he says is that Crookshanks took his [Firebolt] order to the Owl 
Office. This order used Harry's name but took the gold from Sirius' 
vault.

 
Kiricat wrote:

>>> Which doesn't really get to the question of how money is 
transferred  from the account of a fugitive to a broom merchant. I 
suppose if  everything is written out correctly on an order form, 
with the correct vault indicated, and signed by the owner of the 
vault, then,  perhaps this is then considered a binding agreement. <<<

Matina replied:

<<<But if Sirius' letter is to be believed, he used Harry's name to 
do the transaction, which means it wouldn't be his signature on the 
order form, it would be Harry's (and a fake one, at that). That's 
why I'm theorizing about this joint account business. I can easily 
believe that the Gringott's goblins wouldn't bat an eye at a letter 
from Sirius Black saying "transfer some money from my vault to this 
broom merchant and tell them to send a Firebolt to Harry Potter," 
but a letter from Harry Potter saying "transfer some money from 
Sirius Black's vault to this broom merchant and tell them to send me 
a Firebolt" is a different matter, unless Harry is authorized to 
access the vault to begin with.>>>

I tend to agree with Steve Bboy, that the Order implies a gift order. 
Name of recipient X, name of buyer, Y. Perhaps, it is only necessary 
to quote the vault number, and not give name or signature. This would 
make Gringott's banking very different to the Muggle World, and open 
to abuse unless, there is some sort of magical contract of which we 
are not aware.

 
Steve Bboy:

<<<Then, how can Harry use Sirius's money? Well, in a sense, they are
related. Sirius is Harry's godfather, to some extent the makes them
legally family. Sirius is his guardian, that makes Harry his
dependant, and that's close enough to family for the tax man.>>>

To what extent does being a godfather make you legally family? None, 
that I'm aware of. James asked Sirius' to be Harry's Guardian, but 
this is a duty that he was never able to take up. Furthermore, even 
next-of-kin have no rights over their relative's bank account.

I do think that Marina's theory about a joint bank account is 
plausible, particularly given the ambiguous text, but it seems to me 
to open up as many questions as it answers: A joint account with 
Sirius as an account holder would be watched just as much as a sole 
account. There would also be problems with regard to Harry's 
authorisation – he didn't. If Sirius could and did, then there would 
be no need for a joint account, he could authorise funds on his own 
behalf.

Ali