Banter and other SHIP subjects (was TBAY/SHIP: Avast Maties! or: on the S.S. pumpkin pie)

[Penny Linsenmayer]

No: HPFGUIDX 50583

Hi --

I said:
> I also like the pattern that Derannimer picked up on.  I think 
you're right that Hermione says something serious to Ron or Ron and 
Harry or to someone else, and Ron responds with a smart-ass comment.  
I too think Ron is funny (sometimes, but not always).  But, he and 
Hermione are definitely *not* engaging in banter or verbal courtship 
of any kind, IMO.>>>>>>>>>> 

Angua replied:
<<<<<It works both ways though.  It *very* frequently happens that *Ron* 
says something serious to Hermione or to Hermione and Harry or to 
someone else, and *Hermione* responds with a smart-ass comment.>>>>>>>

If it's the cases I'm thinking of though, it's not so much her being "smart-ass" or witty as being derisive about what he's just said.  A zinger?  I'd say a put-down myself.  If she were making those types of comments to Harry, I'd probably conclude she didn't think too highly of Harry's reasoning skills.  

<<<<It is a RECIPROCAL relationship.  I would call it exchanging zingers.  The return may not be immediate, as you and Derannimer seem to think 
is required for "bantering."  The "zinged" one holds his or her fire 
until they find the right opportunity, and then zings in return.
I had considered this as a subset of banter -- apparently you don't.>>>>

Nope, I don't.  Zinging sounds more like taunting than playful teasing to me.  You said it yourself: Hermione frequently "revenges herself" on Ron, oftentimes considerably after-the-fact.  Sounds to me like she was a bit stung by a remark and waited until she could throw it back in his face later.  Not bantering.  Not verbal courtship.  Not IMO.

<<<<JKR has *succeeded* in creating tension between Ron and Hermione.  
The reader is not happy with matters as they now stand.  Some readers 
(me) think it needs to be resolved with reconciliation, 
understanding, and romance.  Some readers (you) think it needs to be 
resolved with distance and reform (on Ron's part only, as far as I 
can tell).  But, you know, the first kind of resolution makes a much 
better story.>>>>>>>>>>

No, I don't think it needs to be resolved with distance and reform (whatever that means).  I just think it will eventually be resolved that they just like to argue.  That the arguing is not the basis of attraction.  That the arguing does not cause or mask a romantic attraction.  That they are just friends whose communication method involves a fair bit of arguing and sniping at one another.  At least, as far as Hermione is concerned anyway.  Ron clearly is attracted to her, and maybe the arguing/bickering is his way of showing it because he's a teenager or because that's how he would show it, no matter what his age.  But, I'm not so sure that Hermione is naturally sarcastic or gets any sort of "charge" out of their interaction or that she returns Ron's romantic feelings.

<<<<This kind of stuff -- bickering to love -- is a STAPLE of popular 
entertainment, and it's usually not "goodnatured.">>>>>>>

Yep.  Hollywood.

> 
> 1 - Her parents' marriage, which had "sparks" and arguments, and 
was 
> (mostly) happy.>>>>>>>
> 
> Source please?  On the "sparks" and "arguments"?  

Angua:
<<<<I will have to return to the library to get you an exact quote.  I am 
going from a very gushing JKR biography written for the children's 
market.  It mentions something like, "Anne and Peter had their 
problems and disagreements, like any newly-married couple might, but 
one thing they *did* agree on was the birth of their first child, 
Joanne.">>>>>>>>>>>>>>

If it's written by Shapiro, you should really not trust anything it says.  It was written for children, and there was no original research done as best I could tell.  I could give you a list a mile-long of basic facts about her life that Shapiro got wrong, including the year of her birth!  Sean Smith's biography, OTOH, is written for an adult audience and clearly has original research into primary records and interviews with friends who knew the Rowlings.  He includes her birth record, her marriage record and though he didn't copy it, the interdict against Arantes, as examples of primary sources.  He includes direct quotes from friends, neighbors, colleagues, teachers, etc.     

I said:
> If she's blushing because Harry is caught her up in subterfuge, as 
you concede (thanks!), then there is NO R/H foreshadowing.  Her blush 
(and her intent) have nothing whatsoever to do with romantic interest 
in Ron.  You conceded as much.

Angua: <<<<<Ahhh, Penny, Penny, Penny...  Haven't you ever heard of SUBTEXT?  The literal, surface meaning of the blush is that Hermione is embarrassed that Harry has caught her plotting to reunite him with Ron.  
The hidden, implied meaning, which the reader may be subconsciously 
influenced by, is that she secretly wants to go to Hogsmeade with 
Ron.  The REALLY alert reader might connect this with an ongoing 
motif of Ron/Hermione/Hogsmeade references, including the "time of 
their lives" observation, the time Hermione doesn't want Harry to 
join them in PoA (because of the Sirius danger), and the time 
Hermione doesn't want Harry to join them in GoF (because of the egg), 
and -- voila -- a subtext of romantic desire!  What, you thought you 
were the only ones allowed to do that? ;)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Oh sure, you can *argue* subtext if you want, Angua.  <g>  I personally think the above is a weak argument .......and presumably those last examples are meant in jest as Susanne suggests (?).  

Penny

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