Voldemort and Grindelwald (WAS: What year was Voldemort born?)

[Tom Wall <thomasmwall@yahoo.com>]

No: HPFGUIDX 50885


JOdel, that was fantastic analysis!  A few points:

JOdel writes:
For one thing, so far as we've been *told*, Riddle 
knew nothing of the WW when he entered the WW. And 
yet by the end of his first year he was searching 
for the Chamber. Five years later he knew how to 
create a Dark artefact like the diary. Now, young 
Tom may have been a ticking time bomb, up to his ears 
in "issues" when he reached Hogwarts, but he was a 
human child, and one with no previous knowlege of magic. 
Somebody "got to" him.

I reply:
I completely agree with you. I think that we're going 
to hear more about this - after all, it makes Voldemort 
that much more interesting and tragic if he has/had a 
good quality or intentions that was/were stamped out or 
diverted by another influence.


JOdel writes:
WHat is more, if he "disapeared" immediately upon 
leaving school, [apart from a guest appearance in 
Little Hangleton] then he was almost certainly in 
contact with someone who was able to help him make 
this possible.

I reply:
I know - you don't just "disappear" after leaving 
a school like Hogwarts, especially not if you're 
the most brilliant student the school has ever seen. 
Riddle was probably being hunted by the MoM as a 
job-candidate, and I'm sure dozens of other prospective
employers wanted his services ala Gringotts and so 
forth. And besides - one doesn't just disappear 
without contacts. When one disappears, one GOES 
somewhere.


JOdel:
The Dark Arts are not currently taught at Hogwarts 
(only Defense). But we don't know how long this has 
been the case. It is quite possible that this is 
a comparitively recent policy established when 
Dumbledore became Headmaster.
<snip>
Lupin and his friends were 22-23 when Voldemort was 
first defeated, on the night of 10/31/81. 
<snip>
Consequently if they were 20-21 when Harry was born, 
they would have started Hogwarts around 1969.
<snip>
Therefore, the question is; was it purely by chance 
that Voldemort only went public the year that Harry's 
parents started Hogwarts? Or did the fact that Albus 
Dumbledore was now Headmaster (rather than in any 
other official capacity elsewhere) have something 
to do with it? Was Voldemort waiting until 
Dumbledore was out of the way before resurfacing? 

I reply:
This is incredible! It seems very likely that 
Grindelwald was a Dark Arts teacher at Hogwarts. 

And it also makes sense that Voldemort would go public 
once Dumbledore had distractions that would keep his 
attention elsewhere - i.e. the safety of the students at 
the school. Better to show up when your biggest threat 
is distracted by students and his primary job not only 
*isn't* finding you, but would be actually undermined
if he tried! Brilliant, in a way. Hogwarts = the diversion
Voldemort needs in order to keep Dumbledore away while 
he plays. And once he'd subsumed everything else, Hogwarts
would have fallen without support.

You know, I *never* connected Harry's parents
and Lupin et al attending Hogwarts just as Voldemort 
began to rise. What a connection to make!


JOdel writes:
If Dumbledore had only just become Headmaster, what had 
he been doing since 1945? Either defeating Grindlewald 
was no big deal, and no one made a great hero of him for 
it, and he had been blamelessly teaching at Hogwarts during the 
intervening period... <snip>
or, defeating Grindlewald was a big enough deal that he was 
offered and had accepted some other job somewhere else, 
possibly in the Ministry, only returning to Hogwarts as 
Headmaster for the academic year beginning 1969.

I reply:
Or, perhaps that's when Dumbledore was off working with 
Nicolas Flamel and working on his research on dragon's 
blood? And he could have been at the Ministry, after all,
someone in canon suggested that they originally wanted
Dumbledore for Fudge's job, and I highly doubt that
they'd offer the job to him if he'd had no Ministry 
experience whatsoever. After all, the Ministry seems a bit
like a closed club, you know?


JOdel writes:
I would suggest that Grindlewald was regarded as a 
nuisance rather than a threat (by anyone who had 
heard of him. I propose that the name is about as 
genuine as the name "Voldemort" is) until after his 
defeat, and that something in the investigation 
following that defeat suggested (to Dumbledore, although 
possibly not to others) that there was an organization 
behind him and that there was more going on beneath the 
surface than one Dark wizard carrying on in a manner 
that might pose a potential a problem to the WW's security.

I reply:
I agree that Grindelwald seemed like more of a nuisance than
a major threat - first because he doesn't get any near the
amount of press that Voldemort does (whereas, by comparison,
Hitler is a much more terrifying prospect than Saddam Hussein
could ever be), and second because Dumbledore defeated him 
*alone* - there was no major coalition or group action or 
anything. And if it was done jointly, like the alchemy stuff
with Flamel, you'd think that the trading card would have
mentioned it.

You know, I was trying to figure out the other day why 
Dumbledore, an instructor at Hogwarts, would be off
defeating a great dark wizard on his own... I mean, 
aren't there, like, ministry people, aurors or something,
who do that sort of thing? It just seems absurd that a 
teacher would do this - it'd be like sending McGonagall 
off to battle Voldemort on her own. Doesn't-make-sense. 

That's why I submitted that maybe Voldemort is somehow 
part of Grindelwald's overall plan - after all, we never 
did learn what Dumbledore's "defeat" of Grindelwald 
entailed. Is he in Azkaban now? Was he killed? Was he
subjected to the dementor's kiss? Maybe he's in hiding? 

Or maybe, he was somehow used by Voldemort in one of 
those "dangerous transformations." Especially if 
Voldemort was "groomed," as you suggest, for his 
position as Dark Lord.


JOdel writes:
I'd like to know more about Grindlewald myself. But this 
whole setup has the sort of elaborate trappings which 
suggest that it could turn out to be a particularly 
gaudy and distracting red herring. We'll have a better 
indication of the matter if Grindlewald (who to date 
has been merely a name on a chocolate frog card) is 
mentioned at *any* point in the 5th book. If he is 
significant, it is about time he was reintroduced 
to the story line.

I reply:
I completely agree. And I don't think it's just a red 
herring. I think that JKR probably never realized what 
kind of a fanatical base would develop around these books
and the storyline, and I bet that the Grindelwald mention 
was designed to be read and entirely forgotten about 
until such point as she saw fit to bring him back up.

I'm leaning now towards something like this: Riddle is
contacted by Grindelwald or one of his agents at Hogwarts
while he's still at school, and he disappears after school
in order to seek out the Dark Lord and formally begin
training under him. Some of that ensues, until Dumbledore, 
who already suspected Riddle of foul play re: Hagrid, 
realizes what is going on, and goes off to hunt down 
Grindelwald. He DOES, but isn't able to capture/stop Riddle, 
who escapes. Somehow, over the next few years, Riddle/Voldemort
is able to incorporate the work of Grindelwald, and 
perhaps part of Grindelwald *himself* or (Grindelwald's 
powers) into him, in an effort to continue doing what 
his master had begun. 

Of course, only Dumbledore knows of the connection, and 
he is characteristically mute about the issue. So, realizing
that there's nothing he can do (for now) he goes and does... 
uhhh... something, until he assumes the Headmastership at
Hogwarts. At which point, Riddle/Voldemort is now ready to
reassert himself in the world, and has no reason to fear 
Dumbledore because he'll be busy securing Hogwarts from
attack. Which is fine by Voldemort, because he doesn't have
designs on Hogwarts, for the time being. While Dumbledore is
securing the school, he's NOT interfering with Voldemort's 
plans for conquest.

Then Voldemort proceeds to try to eliminate all threats to
his assumption of power, and meets his demise thanks to 
Harry, and we're only now seeing the fallout of the whole
thing.

Oh man, there's GOT to be something to Grindelwald. I'm 
CONVINCED of it.  Only just under 6 months until we find
out!

-Tom