[HPforGrownups] Re: House points and Dumbledore

Thu Jan 30 17:41:34 UTC 2003

No: HPFGUIDX 51116

> bboy_mn responses:
> 
> Ok, enough of this 'hard working Slytherins' baloney
> (cow cookies,
> meadow muffins, road apples). Snape probably showers
> points on the
> Slytherin like... er... water. Not to mention that
> their hard work
> consists of lying, cheating, and doing anything they
> can accept
> actually earning it, to achieve their ends. They are
> afteral Slytherins.

Me:
It's not baloney. No one will ever convince me that
the 472 points they earned were due to lying and
cheating. There is no canon to support that.
Judging all the Slyths like that is stereotyping.

And BTW there is *no* canon that Snape gives them
points for nothing. 

> Here is what McGonagall said about points: (my
> emphasis)
> 
> "... your TRIUMPHS will earn your House points,
> while any
> rule-breaking will lose House points."
> 
> Teachers seem to be able to add or subtract points
> based on their own
> criteria. Snape takes them away from people he
> doesn't like in a very
> arbitrary manner, and hands them out likewise.

Exactly. It's a very compromised system, IMO. As
Elkins says, "So no, they're not fair in the
slightest.  The entire system is
completely arbitrary, which is one of the reasons that
I always find
it so very amusing that the students seem to be taking
that silly
House Cup so very seriously."

So, Dumbledore rewards them for their courage and
bravery by awarding them points that can be assigned
and taken away for *anything* else - annoying Snape,
for instance. DD's comparing things that can't and
shouldn't be compared, IMO.   

> Points are not academic, although academinc
> achievement is ONE of the
> things they can be handed out for, and they do get
> grades for their
> classroom performance. Pass or fail is not based on
> House points.

That's right.

> The trophy/plaque that Riddle was awarded, and the
> ones that Harry and
> Ron later received, were for SPECIAL SERVICES TO THE
> SCHOOL (sorry for
> shouting but Yahoo gives us a limited means of
> formating). Ridding the
> school of an evil monster is service to the school.
> Saving the stone
> was not, and therefore, the plaque could not be
> awarded.

So? Like DD couldn't give them some other lind of
award, or nominate them for the Order of Merlin.

> Again, I ask, what did Slytherin achieve that year?
> They sucked up to
> Snape. Bullied and cheated there way around the
> Quidditch pitch.
> Earned a few general routine points that even
> Gryffindor earned. Until
> they got caught getting rid of baby dragon Norbert,
> Gryffindor was way
> ahead in House points. Slytherin only won, not by
> achievement, but by
> default. 

Bullied and cheated their way to the Cup for 7 years
straight? Yeah, right. Slytherin *won* the Cup. And,
you know, first justifying this arbitrary system that
makes it possible for someone to in by cheating, and
then saying that HHR should be rewarded on that
system's terms is kind of strange.

Also, about getting caught out after hours - they
*broke* the rules.. I think it's fair that they got a
punishment. It was very harsh, but that was a risk
Harry and Hermione took.

> So if Triumphs win you point, then the Good-Trio
> really got short
> changed, because three 11 year olds defeating the
> best of what the
> teachers could offer for defenses, selflessly
> risking their lives,
> save the most precious artifact in the entire
> wizarding world, and
> once again, defeating Voldemort was eons ahead of
> anything Slytherin
> accomplished.

Yes, but... oh, I already said what i think about it.

> bboy_mn finishes:
> It's always demoralizing when you lose. Maybe we
> should take the
> politically correct but totally irrational approach
> and make everybody
> winners, so that no one will have to be demoralized
> by losing. Get
> over it; Slytherin lost, they lost because their
> achievements were so
> pale and meaningless compared to the outstanding
> accomplishments of
> intellect, skill, courage, and magic by Harry, Ron,
> and Hermione as to
> not even rate mentioning. Slytherin should have lost
> 50 points for
> being so hopelessly mediocre and mundane in
> comparison to Harry, Ron,
> and Hermione.

Um, *no*. I couldn't disagree with you more. It's
demoralizing to have your victory snatched from you at
the very last moment. The Slyths won, they were
celebrating, their decorations were up, for Heaven's
sake, and then DD comes and basically humiliated them
in front of everybody.

And, I'm told that in house point systems points are
awarded for effort, etc. Taking off 50 points for
being mundane in comparison... that's just plain
wrong, and a pretty harsh thing to say, IMO.

I am prepared to say that it's OK to award the trio
points for what they did, and I am even prepared to
say DD wasn't as generous than he could be, but all
that aside, it was *abominable* of him to do it the
way he did it. 
I agree with Elkins when she says

"Rather, the objection is usually that the Trio and
Neville earned
those points long in advance of the Leaving Feast. 
This meant that
Dumbledore had ample time to award them *before* the
very last
minute.  Instead, however, by allowing Slytherin
colors to be
displayed in the hall, he chose to convey the
impression that the
contest was already closed and that House Slytherin
was in possession
of the Cup, before pulling what I must say has always
come across to
me as a rather childish and unwarranted
"nanny-nanny-boo-boo" on a
group of students whose House already has a
long-standing enmity to
Dumbledore's own, and who therefore already likely had
strong reason
to suspect their Headmaster of bias against them.

"Those who object to 'Dissing the Slyths' feel that
even aside from
all questions of fairness or maturity, this was also
rather a serious
tactical error on Dumbledore's part, as it seems so
very likely to
encourage Slytherin students to turn against
Dumbledore and all he
represents, which in turn means *towards* Dark Magic
and Voldemort."

> I close by agreeing with you that it is demoralizing
> when staff abuse
> the awarding and subtracting of point, but that
> would be Snape, not
> Dumbledore.
> 
> Sorry, but that's still my story and I'm still
> sticking to it.
> 
> ..and nothing personal.
> 
> bboy_mn
> 

Not at all. <g> 

I, OTOH, close my ramblings with a disclaimer:

I do not like the Slyths we are acquainted with in the
books. I like Gryffindor and HHR. I think what they
did in PS was wonderful and well beyond what an
average 11-year-old could do. I also think that
Gryffindor deserved the House Cup as much as any other
House, if not more.

However, my feelings of love towards the Gryffs do not
let me justify DD's actions at the end of PS just
because he happened to favor the House I like.

Nothing personal, of course.

Maria

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