House points and Dumbledore

[errolowl <nithya_rachel@hotmail.com>]

No: HPFGUIDX 51138


Goodness Gracious! The end-of-term argument all over again!

Melpomene: (About Slytherin)
>>But they DID win it. Regardless of how, we don't know that. It's 
safe to assume that there were points awarded to Slyths by 
professors, staff and prefects who were NOT Snape. The fact is, they 
walked into the hall having WON THE CUP by THE SCHOOL RULES. Whether 
they'd won before and it was "someone else's turn" is MOOT.<<

me:
Yes, it is a moot point whether they had won it before. However, they 
had not yet WON the cup this year. They were merely leading (yes, by 
the school rules) the points race. It so happened that the trio won 
more points for their house before the winner of the cup was 
definitively announced. I agree that the timing of the announcement 
was lousy. But it was lousy because the room was already decorated 
and the Slytherins had prematurely congratulated themselves. My 
question here is  -- Who decorates the hall for the feast? Did the 
Slytherins put up the house colors anticipating the victory? If so, 
it wasn't in the best taste to do it before the cup was
announced. I get the idea that traditionally the hall would be 
instantly decorated with the winning house's colors the minute the 
winner is announced. If the slyths jumped the gun, then they just 
compounded their disappointment. They assumed they had an 
insurmountable lead and started celebrating too early.

OTOH, If  Dumbledore ever encouraged putting up your house colors 
before the start of the feast, and it traditionally started that way, 
what happened was humiliating and DD ought to have taken that into 
account. He shouldn't have waited for Harry to be present before he 
announced the points.

And yes, Gryffindor DID win the cup. At the final total, they had 
more points. These points are awarded for all kinds of Triumphs – 
mastering your schoolwork, setting a good example, winning at 
Quidditch, doing a good deed, overcoming your faults, mastering your 
fears, showing character, etc. The points awarded to HRH were 
perfectly valid under the rules. They earned it! For all we know, 
someone from slytherin could have won 60 points for mastering their 
cut-throat ambition and sharing a vital textbook with another student 
before an exam.<g> Any documented show of character is valid to earn 
points.

Snapesangel:
>>What I object to is that Harry and Co. were the only people in a 
position to defeat Voldemort because....
1 Harry has a special ability to know when he's around (his scar),
2 because they knew Hagrid who unwittingly gave the trio information 
(Hagrid felt close to Harry because he had delivered him to the 
Dursley's when he had been small)and
3 because Harry has the magical immunity given to him by his mother's 
sacrifice.

This seems to go against the idea that house points are available to 
all because everyone has the same potential to be good (diligent, 
loyal, hard working, honest etc). It seems pointless to avoid 
awarding house points for purely academic achievements for the sake 
of inclusivity and then awarding them to Harry and the trio for 
something only they could possibly do. I'm not saying they deserved 
no recognition, because they were brave indeed, once they discovered 
it fell to them to defeat Voldie, but that awarding points and giving 
them the cup was not "playing by the rules".<<<

me:
No, I disagree. This does *not* go against the idea of everyone 
having the same potential to be good. Everyone has the opportunity to 
be Brave/ diligent/loyal. Harry just demonstrated his in this 
episode. A Slytherin could have proven his bravery/ loyalty/ etc in 
some other incident, and most probably *did*. 

Yes, this incident is very Harry-specific. Only HRH had the 
information that led them to the Quirrelmort confrontation. But they 
exhibited qualities like moral courage, Initiative, and self 
sacrifice - *these* were what the points were for. Imagine a 
hypothetical scene:
If Draco were to save a fellow student from say, a Troll that got 
into the Slytherin Common room when only the two of them were there
– wouldn't you give him points for that? Yet he was the only one 
presented with *that particular set of circumstances* - the only one 
in a position to act. No one else could have had that opportunity. 
But if he displayed courage and self sacrifice there, it would be a 
valid inclusion on the points table.

Remember, the entire house championship structure is set up to 
encourage character development. Everybody has the right, nay 
obligation, to improve themselves. That's what a good school is 
about, not mere academic learning. If you've shown progress on
the development front, you've got yourself points. And everyone has
the opportunity to show the stuff they are made of, in one way or 
another.

Errol