Who's more out of line? (WAS: Snape and respect)

[serenadust <jmmears@comcast.net>]

No: HPFGUIDX 51174

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "heiditandy" <heidit at n...> 
wrote:

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: serenadust <jmmears at c...> [mailto:jmmears at c...] 
> 
> > And, like Eileen, I was both horrified and greatly amused by 
Draco's 
> > ferret-bouncing (particularly in light of the fact that he gets 
off 
> > scot-free for hitting Hermione with that curse in the hall).  The 
> > first incident is totally unlike the second.

Heidi said:
> But he wasn't aiming at Hermione. He was aiming at Harry, who was 
aiming
> at Malfoy, and as Harry said...
> 
> 'We attacked each other at the same time!' Harry shouted. 
> '-and he hit Goyle - look -' 
> Snape examined Goyle, whose face resembled something that would have
> been at home in a book on poisonous fungi. 
> 
> So in your mind, Draco should've been punished, although Harry 
shouldn't
> have, even though they were dueling in the hallway? 

Now Me:

Oh no, if Draco had been punished (and I think he should have been)it 
would only be fair for Harry to have been punished as well for 
dueling in the hallway.  I do agree that he was aiming at Harry, who 
was aiming at Malfoy etc.  But say, for example, two cars are drag 
racing illegally on a public road and one of them inadvertantly ends 
up injuring another motorist who was unlucky enough to be in the 
wrong place at the wrong time.  That person would be charged with 
more than the unlawful drag racing. He would also be liable for the 
injury to the bystander and I imagine that the penalty would be much 
more severe for that than for the orignal offense.

And actually Harry does end up being punished, along with Ron, 
although that detention was given for shouting at Snape, after his 
cruel treatment of Hermione.  He may have been planning on giving 
Harry detention anyway for dueling in the hall, but we'll never 
know.  However, he certainly doesn't punish Draco for breaking the 
rules against dueling, even though he hurt Hermione in the process.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Heidi again:

> The first incident is totally unlike the second, because in the 
first,
> he was probably trying to curse Harry from behind (although to miss 
at
> that distance gives me the impression that he was either really 
shaken
> up by what Harry said, or he was trying to get his attention rather 
than
> actually hurt him) and in the second, he and Harry were actually
> battling each other - neither was going to be caught by surprise, 
and in
> fact, they both acted at the same instant. 

Me again:

I agree that both Harry and Draco were acting at the same instant.  
I'm not inclined to extend Draco the benefit of the doubt about not 
really wanting to hurt Harry. I think that if he missed, he may just 
have been a poor shot.

Heidi continued:

> It's clear that Crouch's transfiguration and subsequent physical 
assault
> on Draco were out of line - Prof. McGonnagall says so in that very
> scene. And it's also clear that even later in the year, he's still
> rattled by Moody, as evidenced by how jumpy he gets when Hermione
> pretends to see Moody passing nearby later in the book. 

Me again:

I do think that Prof. McGonnagall was right to step in when she did 
and stop the ferret-bouncing.  It shows good judgement on Draco's 
part to be wary of Moody from then on, although he still doesn't seem 
to have learned that it's not nice to pick on people (which was what 
he was supposed to have gotten out of the bouncing incident, as far 
as I'm concerned).  I can't imagine what, if anything, can ever 
convince Draco to stop being as horrible as he is by the fourth book.


<snip>
Heidi continues:
 I'd bet that Crouch's treatment of Draco (and possibly of other
> Slytherins) in DaDA is as bad if not worse than Snape's treatment of
> Harry, et al, in potions, because Crouch has many opportunities, 
such as
> during the teaching of the Imperio curse, to be physically cruel to 
his
> students. 

Me:

It could be, although we never hear another word about any 
interactions between Draco Malfoy and Crouch/Moody.  I tend to think 
that having made his point with the bouncing incident, Crouch backed 
off, but there's no evidence either way.  

Heidi: 

> I find it a bit odd, actually, to hear people praise Crouch's 
treatment
> of Draco. I mean, the man killed his father and was preparing to 
kill
> Harry - and we're supposed to continue to feel praiseworthy about 
his
> actions towards a student? This is about 180 degrees away from
> PickleJimmy's post of late last night, where he posted that people 
who
> don't feel X, Y or Z are reading the wrong book. 
> 
> Are those who think Crouch did the right thing reading the same 
book as
> I am? Do you really think his motives were pure and completely 
focused
> on helping/being kind to Harry? 

Me again:

Not at all. I never meant to say that I thought Crouch's treatment of 
Draco praiseworthy, just entertaining. We don't know at this point in 
the story that he is going to kill his father, and wants Harry 
dead.Of course in hindsight, Crouch's actions take on a whole new 
level of meaning.  At that point in the story though I (and I assume 
everyone else) thought that he *was* actually Mad-Eye Moody, auror 
extrordinaire, with rather unconventional, but effective disciplinary 
methods.  At the time the incident took place, of course I assumed 
his motives were to help Harry, AND teach Draco a lesson.  That's 
what's so brilliant about the whole passage.  It makes perfect sense 
as far as what we expect Moody to do, as well as when we find out 
that Moody is really the patricidal death-eater, Crouch, Jr. I'm 
pretty sure I'm reading the right book.

This being the WW with its warrior ethos, I don't perceive physical 
injury the same way I would in a story that takes place in the "real 
world". If the book were "A Separate Peace" or any other school 
setting story, I'd be appalled at a teacher who physically punished a 
student, even one as rotten as Draco Malfoy.  However, at Hogwarts 
broken bones, vanished bones, and transplanted facial features are no 
big deal, and Draco isn't seriously hurt in any way (although I 
expect he did have some bruises). 

So what wouldn't be at all funny in a different kind of setting, is 
IMO quite amusing in this one.

Jo Serenadust, *not* a Draco fan (does it show? ;-)