House points and Dumbledore

[Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>]

No: HPFGUIDX 51217

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall <thomasmwall at y...>"
<thomasmwall at y...> wrote:
> 
> STEVE bboy_mn WROTE:
> <snip>
> [Harry] at 11 years of age, with the help of his 
> friends, defeated the best protections the staff 
> of Hogwarts had to offer, not to mention solving
> the mystery to the extent that they were even able 
> to get down into the enchanted chambers. 
> END QUOTE.
> 

PREFACE:
Tut, tut, tut Tom, you make a good argument, but having read the
responses to this (the post I'm relying to) post, I have to say that
you are out manned and out gunned.


> I REPLY:
> Steve, I really have to respectfully disagree ...
> ...edited...  In fact, the first time that I read PS/SS, 
> I thought that  the stone's protections were pretty lame, 
> and that anyone could have gotten through them.
> -end this part-

bboy_mn:
Oh really? Let's examine them.

TOM:
> -The trio did zero to beat Fluffy, as not only did 
> Hagrid gave them the answer,
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

- Fluffy is, in all likelihood, a Cerberus, a giant three headed hound
from Hell that filled a large room from floor to ceiling; vicious and
aggressive, and I have no doubt that a Hell Hound can be deadly. Let
show all the 11/12 year olds at Howarts what's in that room; better
yet let's show all the 11/12 year olds in the world, and let's see how
many of them want to enter a room with a vicious three headed monster.
Even if you tell them how to quell the monster, how many do you think
will have the courage to enter that room and try? How many do you
think would have the courage to risk their own lives to save a stone
that didn't even belong to them? 

That was the greatness of their effort. Harry, Ron, and Hermione had
the courage to enter that room knowing what was in there, knowing that
there was a small chance that it would kill them before they had a
chance to play a tune on the flute. Their selflessness, their own
lives meant nothing when weight along side the greater good of all
wizard-kind. 

Defeating Fluffy wasn't the true task, having the bravery, courage,
selflessness and moral fiber to try, THAT was their accomplishment.

 

TOM:
 > -Recognizing Devil's snare should be no big deal for 
> any experienced wizard, so no great shakes there. 
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  -

- Devil's Snare - a plant that saves your life after a fall that takes
you miles under the school, then begins crushing you to death.
[Sarcasm] Nope certainly no problem there.... accept that Harry and
Ron were already lost when Hermione fell; in those few brief seconds,
they were helplessly ensnared. If she hadn't recognised the danger
immeditately and /struggled/ free, she would have been lost too. A
majority of people who fell into this obscure and deadly plant, would
have found it to be the last thing they ever did. 

Even after Hermione escape the Devil's Snare, she had to think long
and hard to find a solution, and she had to do it while she was
standing by watching her best friends die. 

It was actually Harry and Ron who gave Hermione the solution, but they
couldn't have come up with the solution if Hermione's vast storehouse
of knowledge hadn't give them the information they needed. It's called
teamwork.

As far as any experienced wizard recognizing this plant, I doubt it,
but that's irrelevant, we are dealing with 11 year old kids. 

TOM:
> 
> -They didn't even have to really think to figure out 
> what key opened the door, since the wings on the 
> correct key were already broken ...
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


-The Enchanted Keys - First you have to be smart enough to understand
the problem; to understand the nature of the obstacle before you. Then
you have to figure out which of hundred of flying keys is the one you
want. Ron did that by realizing that they should look for a key that
matched the lock. How many wizards would have just started grabbing
keys and trying them? Then you have to sort out a single key from a
mass of hundreds of multicolored keys flying rapidly and randomly
around a large chamber. Once you decided what the key should look
like, and have spotted it then, assuming you can keep sight of it, you
have to catch it. 

It's easy for you Tom, all you had to do was read it, but confronted
with the severity of the situation, how long would it really take you
to solve it without having the solution printed in a book in your hand? 

H/H/R succeed because of skill and teamwork. 

As far as the key with the bent wing, they didn't see that until they
had determined what they had to do, determined what they were looking
for, determined how they were going to find it, then determined how
they were going to catch it, then attempt to catch it. Only then when
they already had decided what they were looking for did the keen eyes
of the youngest Seeker in a Century spot a key matching the
description that had a bent wing. There could have been other keys
with bent wings, keys that were injured in the struggle to get to the
correct key.

TOM:
> -The only serious skill involved, ..., was Ron's chess game.  
> And even *that's*  ridiculous, that he could beat McGonagall, if 
> chess is indeed, a strength of hers.
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

-The Chess Set-
Well, we can all speculate whether McGonagall is or isn't good at
chess, and thereby conclude whether Ron is or isn't good at chess. But
we do know for a fact that McGonagall is no idiot, she is certainly
going to play to her strengths. This is common logic. She has been
given the task of helping guard on of the most rare and precious
magical artifacts in existance. Are we really to believe she treated
this task casually, and place a mediocre obstacle in the way? I think
not; I really think not. The most basic application of logic tells you
she chose an obstacle that reflected one of her strengths. I
personally feel to conclude otherwise is irrational.

Ron played a good game of chess. Ron is a good chess play. Through out
the four existing books there are several references to Ron playing
chess, and he always wins. Can anyone think of an instance when he lost? 

But the critical thing is that he was selfless and brave enough to
sacrifice his life for the greater good. He chose to sacrifice his
life in a situation that very very few would have even had the courage
to go into. No Dumbledore does not spell this out in detail when he
awards the points, but he doesn't spell any of it out in detail.

Regardless of what Dumbledore said, I was there, I saw him sacrifice
himself for something far larger than himself. If that isn't the heart
of a lion then I don't know what is.

So, once again, let's play the same game we played with Fluffy, let's
get all the 11/12 year olds in the school and tell them what they have
to overcome in order to play a chess game who's consequences are
unknown. Do you really think that if the Trio had lost, they could
have just shrugged their shoulders and walked away? I don't think so.
We aren't told what happens if they lose, but in challenges like this,
tea and cookies is rarely the consequence of losing.


TOM: 
> -And, for all his bravery (give credit where credit 
> is due, I say,) Harry's victory was also pretty 
> lame.  ...  Harry basically just stood there and held on.
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


bboy_mn:
You really don't get it do you? Harry wasn't rewarded because he 'held
on', he was rewarded because, in the face of hopeless odds and certain
death, he had the courage to step forward and GRAB HOLD AND KEEP
HOLDING despite excruciating pain, despite knowing he could never win,
despite being a skinny little knobbly kneed boy. He was rewarded
because he had the skill and fortitude to get there, and once there he
had the strength of character to stand toe-to-toe with a full grown
wizard and a great force of evil, and fight for what was right, right
up to his last dying breath if need be.

TOM:
> And for *that*, Dumbledore awarded Gryffindor enough 
> points to win the House Cup? Hogwash. And timing? I'm
> 100% with Elkins and Maria here. *Humiliating* is not
> the word for what Dumbledore did to the Slytherins.
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

No, not for *that*, but for skill, fortitude, courage, bravery,
selflessness, strength of character, and moral fiber. Not just for
what they did there, but for having the courage to be there. For
having the courage to fight the good fight against hopeless odds.

Uuhhh.... and exactly what was it again that Slytherin did that was so
great? Oh yeah, played Quidditch. 

> 
> STEVE bboy_mn WROTE:
> Not to mention that their hard work consists of 
> lying, cheating, and doing anything they can accept
> actually earning it, to achieve their ends. 
> END QUOTE.
> 

TOM:
> I REPLY:
> There is nothing to support that in canon. 
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Nothing other than the general consensus of the other school houses.
Nothing other than Slytherins behavior in the hallways, in the
classroom, and on the Quidditch pitch. Nothing other than the
endlessly repeated rumor that Snape favors his own house. Nothing
other that Snapes vicious vindictive and down right mean treatment of
Gryffindors. Nothing other that Snape being so blatantly unfair as to
be tragically laughable. Nothing other than Draco's endless effort to
humilitate Harry. Nothing other than Draco faking an injure (after a
true injury was healed) to get Hagrid fired. Nothing other than trying
to destroy an innocent animal. Nothing other than lying to Rita
Skeeter. Nothing other than Draco trying to curse Harry while his back
was turned. NOthing other than Draco threatening Harry, Hermione, and
the Weasleys with death. Nothing other than Draco's mean, spitefull,
arrogant, self-grandiose, selfish, self-absorbed, egostitical
attitudes and actions. Nothing other than the sorting songs.
[Sarcasm->] Nope, not much there at all.

TOM:
> 
> Doesn't anyone think it's ODD that Slytherin was on a 
> seven year winning streak and only started losing once 
> Harry 'n the gang showed up? 
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

NO!

TOM:
> 
> The idea that Slytherin won for seven years running, and 
> would have won for an eighth if Dumbledore hadn't 
> interfered, does not indicate to me that this is the 
> direct result of undue favoritism from the Snape, either. 
> On that note -
> 
> 
> -Tom

bboy_mn:
Get over it, Slytherin lost. Dumbledore didn't steal a victory from
anyone. They just plain lost. The House Cup is won when it is awarded
at the Leaving Ceremony. Up until the Leaving Ceremony, Slytherin was
ahead and was the ASSUMED winner. But it isn't over until all the
points are counted. It isn't over until the Cup is awarded.

If Slytherins had made an effort to dig out the facts, to solve the
mystery, to face the danger, to sacrifice themselves, to save one of
the most rare and precious magical artifacts, and to prevent Voldemort
from becoming immortal, then they could have earned a few extra points
too. 

Harry, Ron, and Hermione were awarded point that they EARNED for
displaying skill, knowledge, courage, bravery, selflessness, strength
of character, and moral fiber above and beyond what anyone could
possibly expect from three 11 year old kids. In fact, above and beyond
what one could expect of most full grown wizards. And for good
measure, they saved the Stone and defeated Voldemort.

They didn't have to go. They could have done what all the other 11
year old kids did, which was be little kids. Instead they chose to
shoulder a task that would have buckled the knees of the strongest of
men, and they shouldered that task with great success.

They earned the points, they won the cup. 

The timing sucked. But this incident only occured 4 days before the
end of school. To a kid, 4 days is a long time, but when you are the
headmaster of the school, you have things to do, places to go, people
to see, arrangements to make. You have to go convince Nicholas Flamel
and his wife that the best thing for them is to die. You have to
destroy the Stone. You have to see to it that a near dead student is
being taken care of. You have a school to run. So pardon me if
Dumbledore was a little too busy to think of poor Slytherins feelings.
They lost. Plain and simple. They didn't EARN enough points. 

This most certainly is my story and I AM sticking to it.

bboy_mn